Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru

Good afternoon and welcome to this Plenary meeting. Welcome back after the summer recess. Before we move to our first item, I wish to inform the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 26.75, that the Elections and Elected Bodies (Wales) Act 2024 was given Royal Assent on Monday 9 September, and that the Local Government Finance (Wales) Act 2024 was given Royal Assent on Monday 16 September.

Item 1 is next, which is nominations for committee Chairs. I now invite nominations, under Standing Order 17.2F, for the election of committee Chairs. Only a member of the political group that has been allocated that committee may be nominated as Chair, and only a member of the same political group may make the nomination. The allocation of Chairs to political groups has been agreed in accordance with Standing Order 17.2A and 17.2R. When a party group has more than 20 members, the nomination must be seconded by another member of the same group. If any Member objects to a nomination, or if there are two nominations or more for the same committee, a secret ballot will be held.

So, we will move on, first of all, to invite nominations for Chair of the Petitions Committee, which has been allocated to the Labour group. Are there any nominations for the Chair of the Petitions Committee? Hannah Blythyn.

I nominate Rhianon Passmore.

Rhianon Passmore is nominated. Is there a seconder to that nomination?

Seconded. 

Yes, that's seconded by Mick Antoniw. Are there any further nominations for the Chair of the Petitions Committee?

I nominate Carolyn Thomas. 

Carolyn Thomas has been nominated by Buffy Williams. Is there a seconder for that nomination?

I'll second it. 

Joyce Watson seconds that nomination. Are there any further nominations? No, there are no further nominations. As we have more than one nomination, there will be a secret ballot held for the Chair of the Petitions Committee.

I now invite nominations for Chair of the Standards of Conduct Committee. This, again, has been allocated to the Labour group. Is there a nomination for Chair of the Standards of Conduct Committee?

I nominate Hannah Blythyn. 

Julie Morgan nominates Hannah Blythyn. Is there a seconder for that nomination?

I'll second. 

That’s been seconded by Lesley Griffiths. Are there any further nominations? There are none. And as there is just one nomination, I will ask if there are any objections to that nomination—any objections to the nomination of Hannah Blythyn as Chair of the Standards of Conduct Committee? No. As there is only one nomination that was not objected to, I declare that Hannah Blythyn is elected Chair of the Standards of Conduct Committee, and I wish her well with that work.

As there was more than one nomination for the position of Chair of the Petitions Committee, there will now be a ballot held. That will be a secret ballot and will be held in briefing room 13, and Members will soon receive an e-mail to inform them that voting will start at 2.15 p.m. and will close at 4.15 p.m. We will then count the votes and declare the winner at the end of the afternoon. That’s the housekeeping dealt with.

We will now move on to questions to the First Minister, and the first question this afternoon is from Buffy Williams.  

The young person's guarantee is our offer of support to every young person aged 16 to 24 in Wales to gain a place in education, training or an apprenticeship, or to find a job or to become self-employed. Since its launch, over 38,000 young people have started on the employability and skills programmes.

Delivering real opportunities is essential for our young people. We know, in Wales, many will follow a traditional path through school and university, but it's clear that education is not a one-size-fits-all. Courses at colleges like Coleg y Cymoedd, in my constituency, and alternative education projects, like the Green Light Project, run by RCT council through charities like Cambrian Village Trust, are vital for supporting students with different needs. With this in mind, could you please outline your plans for expanding alternative education opportunities across Wales in the future, and what role do you see junior apprenticeships playing for those who may not pursue the conventional academic route?

Thanks very much. I absolutely agree that people learn in really different ways and that one size doesn't fit all, which is why it's really important that we do provide those alternative routes. I think what's great about the young person's guarantee is that it can provide that alternative to the traditional mechanism of learning and securing a job. We know that some will need really tailored and specific support, and that junior apprenticeship scheme that you talked about is one route that people use. It's aimed at years 10 and 11 learners, and they attend college on a full-time basis—they undertake a two-year programme. And what's great is that it's currently offered by about five colleges in Wales and it helps around 150 learners. Now, Estyn has just done a review of the junior apprenticeship programme, and we're now considering the recommendations that have come through as a result of that. But I think, probably, this is an opportune moment also for us to congratulate those people who were successful in the WorldSkills event that happened in Lyon. This is something that Wales does really, really well. We do so well every year—I say 'we'; it's not us, it is those young people who've taken those non-traditional routes but have world-class skills. One of those is Ruben Duggan from Manmoel in Blackwood, who won silver in plumbing and heating. And I'm sure we all want to send our congratulations to him, and to the rest of the people who succeeded so well in those WorldSkills events.

Through the young person's guarantee, we should be seeing more people in education, employment and training, but we are seeing the opposite, unfortunately. University bosses warned last month that we need to be worried about the number of young people from Wales applying to higher education, which is the lowest in the UK according to Universities and Colleges Admissions Service data. Apprenticeship targets have consistently not been met, and have then been revised down to 125,000. This September, according to ColegauCymru, we are looking at 10,000 fewer people starting apprenticeships due to the Welsh Government's budget cuts, which will significantly impact the Welsh economy too. The rate of people in Wales aged between 19 and 24 not in education, employment or training, or NEET, is 14.5 per cent, which has slowly crept up by 5.3 per cent over the last five years. Whatever the Welsh Government is doing is not working. The young person's guarantee will not help young people procure skills and training if the Welsh Government have slashed the skills and training budget. Denbighshire has the third highest youth unemployment rate in Wales, with west Rhyl accounting for a fifth of Denbighshire's total, which is a very depressing figure. So, will the Welsh Government reinstate its apprenticeship pledge back to 125,000 and provide the necessary funding to give our young people the start that they very deserve?

Well, I don't think I'm going to apologise for our record on apprenticeships. We've done brilliantly, especially when you compare what's happened in England. And if you look at youth unemployment, which is something I know we're all concerned about, if you don't get young people into work early, the chances are that it affects them for the rest of their lives. So, really cracking that is significant and important. And the fact is that, yes, youth unemployment rates are too high in Wales, at 7.4 per cent, but they're a damn sight better than they are in England after 14 years of Tory Government—11.3 per cent there. So, we are doing much better, and it's thanks to that guarantee that we have given to the people in Wales.

I met with the Chancellor on 21 August, along with the then Cabinet Secretary for finance. Now, we discussed the implications of the tight fiscal position and the pressures for key public services, and we'll continue to prioritise public services that matter most to the people of Wales.

Thank you, First Minister, and congratulations on taking this new role, which is great.

Sadly, nearly one in six older people live in poverty, and, with Wales having proportionately more older people than the rest of the UK, the Chancellor's ideologically driven attack on the winter fuel allowance will be devastating for my constituents. We don't all have rich friends who will pay for our glasses or bedeck our wives in the latest couture. For many older people, they're faced with a stark choice this winter: heating or eating. First Minister, if you cannot persuade the UK Government to reinstate the winter fuel allowance, what steps will your Government take to ensure older people in Wales don't freeze this winter? 

Well, thanks very much, Altaf. This is certainly something that is causing some concern amongst older people in Wales, and I think it is important that we recognise that. This is certainly something that's come up time and again with me on the streets during my listening exercise over the summer. But what I can tell you is that the job of the Government is to make sure that they're able to balance the books, and the fact is that the Conservatives left a £22 billion black hole and that's not an insignificant amount. But what I can tell you is that, already, the Welsh Government is putting substantial support into protecting the most vulnerable. Just an example of that is we give £30 million to support people in our Warm Homes Nest project. So, there's a huge amount of support. And the other thing, of course, is that those people who are eligible should apply, and we have worked with the UK Government over the summer to make sure that people who are eligible, and there are many, many who are not currently accepting the pensioner credit, that they should be applying, which means that they would be eligible for that winter fuel support.

There are other choices for 'balancing the books', as you phrase it. Around 82,000 pensioners in my region will lose out due to the UK Government's plan to cut the winter fuel payment. Your own Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice said that the move by Labour Ministers will push pensioners across Wales into deeper fuel poverty. An impact assessment hasn't even been carried out by the UK Labour Government. Has your Government carried out an assessment of how many of our elderly citizens will be impacted? How are you going to support them this winter, because you will have to support them; they will be going into hospitals? How much is this decision by UK Labour going to cost the Welsh Government? Do you condemn the cut?

Well, what I do know is that the triple lock has also been assured, and that means that there's £900 additional funding this year for pensioners and £400 next year for pensioners. But I accept that there are people who are really frustrated by this situation. So, what are we doing in the Welsh Government? Because that is what I'm here to do, it's to account for what we do in Welsh Government. Now, we have provided, for example, £5.6 million funding to the Fuel Bank Foundation since June 2022 to support the delivery of a national fuel voucher and heat fund scheme. The single advice fund has helped more than 280,000 people deal with over £1.1 million social welfare problems since January 2020. So, we are putting the support in, but, obviously, there is a responsibility for the UK Government and there's a responsibility for us.

Questions now from the party leaders. The leader of the Welsh Conservatives, Andrew R.T. Davies.  

Thank you, Presiding Officer. First Minister, you highlighted how you'd met with the Chancellor back in August, and I hope, in those conversations, you directed the Chancellor to the genuine anger that is around this withdrawal of the winter fuel allowance here in Wales. Did you show your anger and your mantle and, actually, tell her that she had made the wrong policy decision, and how this will affect 400,000 pensioners here in Wales and take £110 million-worth of benefits away from some of the most vulnerable people in our society?

Well, I understand this is a really difficult and concerning time for a lot of pensioners in Wales. People, as I say, have raised that concern with me during that summer of listening. But I think it is important to recognise that the UK Government has had to make some really difficult decisions. If you look at Brexit, you just see the fact that exports have collapsed from the United Kingdom. We had the Liz Truss Government that pushed up interest rate payments. All of these things happened, and now we’ve got to clear up the mess that you left.

No apology. No contrition. And the figure I said to you was 400,000 Welsh pensioners will lose this assistance, this vital assistance that they require to keep themselves warm this winter. It is the wrong policy and the wrong choice, and your colleagues in Westminster have made that choice and withdrawn that benefit. But it is not too late. Will you write to the Chancellor, implore the Prime Minister to rescind this policy decision and put that money back into pensioners’ pockets this winter so that they can keep themselves warm? Because your own party’s figure in 2017 said that this policy decision of withdrawing the winter fuel allowance would see 4,000 premature pensioner deaths because of it.

Well, I’ll account for the actions of my Government, and Keir Starmer will have to account for the actions of his Government. I’m not going to come here week in, week out to respond to questions that should appropriately be given to Keir Starmer. If you want to go and ask Keir Starmer, you should have gone into Westminster. Now, what I will do here is make sure that people have understood that there actually are lots of ways that we are supporting people within Wales with their winter fuel, especially those who are most vulnerable. We’ve got the council tax reduction scheme—that’s 0.25 million households who are supported to pay no council tax at all—that means that it frees them up to be able to spend that money on winter fuel. We know that that support that Welsh Government has given has helped—£137 million-worth of support gone into people’s pockets in Wales. It’s the Welsh Government making sure that people claim what is theirs. We’ve been working with the UK Government over the summer on that particular campaign, we’ve made our own campaign, working with local government, to make sure that those who are the most vulnerable get the support that they deserve.

First Minister, you made much play in your interview on Sunday of saying you were going to stand up for Wales when that needed to happen and speak up for people here in Wales. I have said to you that, on your own party’s figures, 4,000 people—. I hear the Member for Blaenau Gwent sighing at the comment about 4,000 premature deaths. This is your figure of 4,000 premature deaths. A withdrawal of £110 million-worth of support and 400,000 pensioners facing a very bleak winter indeed. Would you agree with me, after two chances to stand up for Wales here on the floor of the Welsh Parliament, you have failed miserably in your first excursion out, and ultimately it’ll be the pensioners who will pay the price of that failure here in Wales because your colleagues in Westminster have chosen a duff policy over making sure they keep pensioners warm here in Wales?

I’ll tell you who’s failed miserably: it’s your Government. It’s your Government that left the people of this country, the most vulnerable, in a dire situation because you crashed the economy. Liz Truss, somebody that you supported—[Interruption.] You supported Liz Truss and she pushed up interest rates. It means that we have a £22 billion hole—

Can I have some silence to hear the First Minister, please?

You left a £22 billion hole that we now have to fill. Where's your apology? Where's your apology? I tell you what: you want to hold me to account, you can hold me to account for what happens in this Chamber, but the responsibility for fixing the mess that you left remains with Keir Starmer.

Leader of Plaid Cymru, Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Thank you very much, Llywydd. It's a little over a month since we stood here congratulating our new First Minister on her appointment. Now, in the first opportunity to question her, what we find, or what we're trying to find out, is what exactly the new appointment means for Wales.

Like her predecessor—her two predecessors, actually, over the past six months—we're told by the new First Minister time and again that having two Labour Governments working in partnership should be to the benefit of Wales. It doesn't feel like it when it comes to the winter fuel payment. Both parties, of course, Labour and the Conservatives, are complicit on this—an idea put forward by a Conservative Prime Minister and eventually delivered by a Labour Prime Minister. Does the First Minister of the Welsh Government see that, by endorsing, as she has done, the tough decision by Rachel Reeves, she is indeed endorsing the continuation of Conservative austerity?

Well, if the leader of Plaid Cymru wanted to hold the UK Government to account, maybe he should have stuck with his plan A and gone into Westminster. But what I can tell you is that, because of the partnership that we now have with the UK Government, this summer we have been able to give inflation-busting pay awards to public servants across Wales—over 200,000 people benefiting from a pay allowance that we were able to give, a pay award, because of the new Labour Government in Westminster. And on top of that, as I'll be outlining later today, we are able to give a much better deal to the workers in Tata. So, those are just two examples from really early days in this new partnership arrangement where we are directly delivering for the people of Wales. 

I'm glad that the First Minister recognises my commitment to Wales in being here fighting for Wales in the Welsh Parliament. We know that she has her seat in the House of Lords as Baroness Morgan of Ely, of course. We hear Labour talking about tough decisions, don't we? I wonder if the First Minister cares to comment on the very tough decisions that pensioners in poverty have to make now in choosing between heating and eating. It's a pretty tough choice, is it not? What we see, sadly, and I feared this, is the unwillingness of Labour in Wales to actually stand up to its London masters and fight for Wales and for what's in the interests of the most vulnerable in society. Now, this isn't standing up for Wales from the First Minister; it's keeling over and putting party, again, before country. 

Now, I want to move on, if I can, to another issue. In 2007, another predecessor of hers, Carwyn Jones, promised Labour would scrap the Barnett formula. It could not be defended, he said. Why, then, in her recent letter to me was the First Minister still defending it, and why did Labour fail to keep its word?

Well, I think it is important that I account for what is my responsibility, and, if every time something changes in Westminster I'm expected to fill a hole, then we're not going to get very far here. So, let's be absolutely clear: I will take responsibility for my actions here, my responsibilities, but, if you want to question Keir Starmer, you should have gone to Westminster. 

Now, just in terms of the Barnett formula, it was a discussion that we've had already with the new Chancellor. I was able to do that over the summer, but also to talk to Keir Starmer about how we need support in the Welsh Government financially and a review of the financial position, which was promised in the Welsh manifesto. So, that is a conversation that we are starting. We'll see how far we get, but I can assure you that, already—already—they are in listening mode and, of course, we'll all have to wait until we see that budget, which will be coming up in the autumn.

I'm being criticised by the First Minister for demanding for Wales what Wales needs in terms of fair funding. It's the Labour Party that told us that everything would be rosy in the garden as soon as we had a Labour Government at Westminster, and now we have. And we have seen the winter fuel payment cut for pensioners, many thousands of them living below the poverty line. 

Now, on winter fuel and fair funding, the First Minister has confirmed that Keir Starmer calls the shots. She now, of course, has a Government of her own—not really new. She's even talked of bringing back a familiar face as an anchor to that Government: the last First Minister but one. Highly respected, of course, but highly surprised himself, I'm sure, to be back playing such a deeply influential role within this Government. We'll see how influential the role is. Now, if the First Minister will forgive me for expanding a little on her chosen metaphor, if we take a Government as a whole, an anchor, of course, is very good at keeping you still, is very good at holding you back, not so good at moving things forward. So, today, I ask the First Minister to at least give us a clue about what she thinks her Government is doing and where it's heading. We're on our third health Minister in six weeks—a revolving door of Tory proportions. She told the BBC she has a strategy, but where is it? When will we see waiting lists in Wales begin to fall? Keir Starmer says the Tories broke the NHS in England and he's planning a reconstruction. Will she now finally accept that she and her Labour predecessors broke ours, and that we need urgent reform, something Labour has shown, time and time again, it's unable to do?

Well, I think you were listening to a different campaign from me, because the campaign I heard from Labour was actually one that was very cautious about managing expectations because of the mess that we knew that the Tories were leaving us. So, if you think that we promised rosy uplands in the future, that was a different campaign from the one I was hearing.

But let me tell you what I will be offering. Let me tell you what I will be offering. Mark Drakeford, you're quite right, I'm really pleased and proud that he has accepted a role in Government. He will be an anchor, but I tell you what, I'm the captain of the ship now—[Interruption.]—and what we'll be doing, what we'll be doing, is we will be serving the public in Wales. I've been on a listening exercise over the summer and I will be setting out, later today, the priorities—not our priorities, but the people's priorities, the things that they want us to focus on—but you'll just have to be a little bit more patient before I set out what they are.

During a visit to a windfarm in Carmarthenshire, I had very positive early discussions with the Prime Minister. Although GB Energy is at a much earlier stage than our own renewables company, we are exploring how partnership could deliver benefits for all regions of Wales.

Well, thank you very much. I'm very pleased to hear that you came to Carmarthenshire to visit a windfarm in Brechfa with Keir Starmer. And there, he said very confidently that GB Energy would bring vital benefits to Wales. Now, since that visit, I've been struggling a little to understand what exactly that means; I hope that you'll be able to explain this afternoon. As far as I see it, GB Energy is undermining our ability as a nation to develop a renewable energy sector on a domestic basis that benefits our communities, including through the work that Ynni Cymru is doing. For me, GB Energy looks like a medium for once again using the natural resources of Wales for the benefit of the Crown Estate and, ultimately, the Treasury, and that there's the same pattern that we've seen over the years of our coal, steel, slate and water being exploited for the benefit of Westminster, not for the benefit of communities in Wales.

Now, it's only through devolving the Crown Estate that we can develop an energy system that is truly beneficial to our communities, and you as a Government agree with us on that. So, can you confirm, First Minister, that you have had discussions with Westminster about the devolution of the Crown Estate?

Thank you very much. Well, I was delighted that Keir Starmer came to Wales very early on, once we'd invited him, and he was delighted to visit that windfarm in Carmarthenshire, because this is part of how we're going to grow the economy, the green economy, in Wales. There's a huge amount of potential, but it's not something that can easily be delivered, and it's crucially important that we use every lever available to us, not just in Wales, but also use that additional leverage that comes from co-operating with the new Government in Westminster.

What I can say is that Trydan Gwyrdd Cymru is in the vanguard. We have started this campaign already. There are windfarms that have already been erected in areas that are already bringing money back into the public purse. But Trydan Gwyrdd Cymru can only work terrestrially. I think there's an opportunity now for us to work with GB Energy, to see how far we can go in collaboration when it comes to offshore developments too. So, those discussions have commenced, as a result of that visit by Sir Keir Starmer, they are very willing and eager to learn from what we've already done, but of course the funding that they will have available will be of great assistance to us, and they're very eager to help us. 

I do think this is a good question on the order paper today, and I'm keen to understand how GB Energy would benefit mid Wales. You'll be aware of the long history in mid Wales of the concerns about the over-proliferation of windfarm developments, but what is more of a concern is the industrialisation of landscapes with pylons running through valleys and hills across mid Wales. So, can I ask, First Minister, given the fact that just before the summer there was a motion before this Senedd that called for an update to 'Planning Policy Wales', so that the conveying of new infrastructure was absolutely underground rather than just the preferred option of the Welsh Government, can I ask, First Minister, given the fact that GB Energy have a remit, as I understand it, to co-ordinate transmission operators to launch a super tender for providing the grid supply chains, will you perhaps revisit this position of undergrounding being a change to 'Planning Policy Wales', given that you are a new First Minister with new priorities, and will you also commit to meeting with GB Energy, as they develop, to understand how mid Wales could benefit through the undergrounding of transmission lines rather than what is currently proposed? 

Well, thanks very much. First of all, I'm not going to apologise in terms of what our ambitions are in relation to the development of green energy. The potential in Wales, this could be transformational for our economy and we're all going to have to work out how we do this whilst making sure that we look at security of supply, so we're not dependent on Russian gas and the vagaries of the international markets, so that we look at the environmental benefits of having green energy, but also affordability.

Let's be absolutely clear: we've been talking about the affordability of energy today and there are implications to putting everything underground. So, I think we've got to be aware that actually it's not one thing or another. This is very, very difficult and very sensitive, and that's why we have had a 'Future Energy Grids for Wales' report, and that shows that Wales's electricity demand may triple by 2050. Now, you can bury your head in the sand if you want on that, but as a leader of a Government, I think we've got a responsibility to make sure that, for example, people in mid Wales can get into electric vehicles, and at the moment they won't be able to because the grid is so weak, so there are challenges. And let me tell you that we have convened an independent advisory group to build an understanding of possible approaches to delivering electricity transmission infrastructure, and of course we will have to have difficult conversations in sensitive areas about how best to do that. Of course, undergrounding if it's feasible, if it's possible, if it's affordable, but sometimes that simply won't be possible.

I'm delighted to say that the commitment has been delivered in full. As of the start of term, 22 local authorities have now completed the roll-out of universal primary free school meals to all learners in reception to year six, including those who provide meals to full-time nursery learners.

Thank you for that response.

It's fantastic to know that every child in Wales, no matter their status, in our primary schools, is receiving a free, nutritious lunch every day, achieved by the two parties working together here in the Senedd. So, I hope we will see the positive outcomes of this: better health, better learning, better social skills for our future generations, because it is so important that children are able to learn when they're able to eat, and it will help them so much. So, could the First Minister tell me if there will be any evaluation work done to measure the success of the roll-out of this very important scheme, and a landmark achievement for this Senedd?

Diolch yn fawr, Julie. Before I answer the question, I want to thank you for the work you've been doing on the school holiday enrichment programme. It's important to recognise that there are some children who struggle to find food during the summer holidays, and that's why that school holiday enrichment programme has been so important, and thank you for doing that evaluation on that.

I think this is a policy that we should be really proud of. It's very interesting, isn't it, that there's a report out today by the Institute for Public Policy Research that suggests precisely that we should be rolling out, across the United Kingdom, free school meals in primary. Isn't it wonderful that we are the first part of the United Kingdom to do that? And I've got to pay tribute to Plaid Cymru: this is part of the co-operation agreement, this is something we did together. Thank you for that co-operation and, I think, when we can work together, we should. That is an invitation for the future. And I think it is important that we recognise that this is something that children across Wales will benefit from.

Just in terms of the evaluation, there has been a tender. The contract has been awarded already. The three-year-evaluation contract represents a significant investment and, I think, demonstrates the importance we're placing on this policy. So, we've got to make sure that what we do is evidence based. We're not just looking at how it's being done, but, 'Are we using the right nutrition? Are we using local supplies?' I think all of these things are things that we will want to see come out in the course of that evaluation.

I'm interested in your answer, First Minister, to Julie Morgan there where you said that this had been a commitment that has been delivered in full and, unfortunately, part of that commitment was to ensure that, 'no child goes hungry'. Unfortunately, that's not been met, because the Children's Commissioner for Wales, in April, found that 80 per cent of children surveyed were still going hungry after eating a meal provided at a school. So, clearly, this is not the successful policy that you profess it to be if 80 per cent of children having a meal at school are saying that they're still hungry. So, what are you doing to address that?

I must say, it's better that they're having something, and today they are having more than anything that they are having in England as a result of 14 years of Tory Government. But let me tell you that it is important. I do recognise that we do need to look at this, and that's why, already, we are revising the healthy eating in schools regulations, and that will set out what can and can't be served in all maintained schools in Wales. And I know that the Cabinet Secretary for Education, as part of her oral statement later this afternoon, where we will be celebrating this important milestone—. Let's not underestimate it: this is not cheap, but it's important. This is part of addressing the issue of child poverty in Wales; it's a fundamental plank, and we should be really proud of this, and I know that the education Minister will give us chapter and verse on that later today.

The Cardiff parkway planning application is under active consideration and a decision will be issued in due course.

Thank you for the reply. I welcome what you have said repeatedly, as First Minister, about the need to grow the economy. Cardiff parkway is a transport and economic development proposal in the east of my constituency. This proposal is endorsed in the Burns report; has a joint section 106 agreement; again endorsed by Natural Resources Wales on environmental mitigation; and it is privately funded, with the Welsh Government as a minority joint venture partner. We all understand the transport budget does not have the spare capital to deliver this proposal.

Cardiff Council approved the planning proposal in April 2022. It was called in by Welsh Ministers in November 2022. Two planning inspectorate inquiries have now taken place, in September 2023 and February 2024. Can the First Minister give us an update on which Minister will now determine this matter? And when can we expect a decision on whether this proposal will be approved?

Well, thanks very much. It's obviously not appropriate for me to comment on a live planning case, but what I can tell you is that now that my new Cabinet's in place, a Cabinet Secretary will be allocated to the case in the next week, so that they can be working towards a decision on this matter. But I can't provide any further comment on the merits of this proposal, in order to avoid prejudicing the final decision.

First Minister, as we've just heard, even though Cardiff parkway has been privately funded, there's an intention that the proposed Cardiff Crossrail development will eventually connect to it, which is being built by Cardiff Council with the help of Transport for Wales. However, as you will know, Transport for Wales made a loss of nearly £300 million last year and required additional funding from this Government of about £125 million. Its flagship south Wales metro project is also currently £260 million over budget. I think it would be safe to say that public confidence in Transport for Wales is at an all-time low, especially where I come from, but I would be interested to know, First Minister, if an assessment has been made of the actual likelihood of Cardiff Crossrail linking up with Cardiff parkway, and what impact it would have on the parkway development, should it fail to do so. Thank you.

Thanks. Again, I think it's important for me not to be drawn into any planning issues, but the Cardiff parkway proposal is for a new station at St Mellons. I don't accept your proposition that Transport for Wales is not performing well. In fact, it's the best performing rail service in Wales. Of course, what we do know is that we have invested vast sums of money, and over the next few months, you will see significant new investment going into and transforming the rail services in Wales.

Thank you, First Minister. Putting aside the planning issues, this project—Cardiff parkway—was initially proposed to be entirely led by the private sector, and a new railway station funded by the private sector. My understanding is that the last costs were at £120 million. That's before COVID, so we anticipate that that will be significantly more. Is it still the Welsh Government's understanding that those costs will entirely be met by the private developers, and if not, where would that gap funding come from? And could she also confirm whether or not Transport for Wales have looked at alternative railway station models? The four-line mainline model put forward by the developers is arguably over the top, and a local walk-up station, like the one being developed up the railway line at Magor, is arguably more appropriate. Is Transport for Wales actively developing that proposal so that the people of east Cardiff can have a railway option regardless of whether this proposal goes through?

Thanks very much. Well, I'm certainly not making any economic commitments to this programme. Our budget is very stretched, and we have to work out exactly what the priorities are. Speaking more generally about transport in the area, Transport for Wales are carrying out work to develop new railway stations east of Cardiff that have the potential to enable thousands of journeys by public transport. These stations would be able to make use of the planned enhancements of the south Wales main line relief line, which was recommended by Lord Burns. Since he made those recommendations in 2021, the Welsh Government has invested to develop the proposal through Transport for Wales, along with a £2.7 million investment by the UK Government. But what I can tell you is the massive difference in terms of co-operation between the Welsh Government and the UK Government since Labour has come to power. I know that Ken Skates has had significant and constant discussions with the Minister responsible, the relationship has transformed, and they understand that there needs to be more investment in terms of rail infrastructure in Wales.

Welsh Government is taking an integrated catchment approach to improve water quality in our rivers, co-operating with all sectors involved. We've also made available over £40 million of additional funding between 2022 and 2023 and 2024-25, to address water-quality challenges across Wales.

Thank you for that answer. Releasing large volumes of untreated wastewater laced with microplastics and sewage severely compromises water quality and poses distress to freshwater habitats, marine life, and ultimately humans themselves. While Natural Resources Wales grants permits to allow the discharge of untreated wastewater after heavy rainfall, research shows that water companies in both Wales and England routinely breach this condition. Raw sewage discharge into the River Tawe causes serious concern amongst anglers and residents. Will the Welsh Government strengthen legislation to prevent the shameful yet widespread practice of routinely discharging untreated sewage into Welsh rivers?

Well, thanks very much, Mike. You'll be aware that the Deputy First Minister will be making a statement today on cleaning our rivers, lakes and seas, where I'm sure he will go into more detail and can answer the question in much more detail than I'm able to do today.

But what I can tell you is that part of the reason that we have pollution in our rivers, as you suggest, is because of the discharge from those storm overflows during times of heavy rain. They do play an important part in reducing the risk of sewers flooding homes and public spaces, so there's role for them, but as you say, we've got to be really careful to make sure that they're tightly controlled, and that is the job of NRW. It's important that they only discharge in times of heavy rainfall when the capacity of the sewer has been exceeded.

Dŵr Cymru's national environmental plan includes a requirement to treat more flow through the Trebanos wastewater treatment works in the Tawe catchment area. They've already started to design that, so I'm hoping that that will help the constituents in your area.

This financial year, 2024-25, we are investing a record £75 million under our flood and coastal erosion risk management programme. This includes allocating more than £8.2 million capital funding for risk management authorities in Mid and West Wales to progress flood schemes, and we estimate this will benefit 5,207 properties.

Thank you for that answer, First Minister, and can I take this opportunity to congratulate you on being the first female First Minister of Wales?

I was pleased to see that you and the Deputy First Minister visited Ammanford last week to see first-hand the multi-million pound Welsh Government-funded flood risk management scheme. This has been designed to reduce the risk of flooding for over 380 properties in that town. Ammanford has suffered multiple flooding events over the last 40 years, which have been devastating for both businesses and individuals. With extreme weather events forecast to increase as a result of climate change in the coming years, the flood risk is predicted to increase alongside that. In recent weeks, we've seen evidence of this flash flooding, and not only in many parts of Wales, but—on a scale that astounded everybody—across Europe. So, First Minister, are you taking the learning that would have come out of that Ammanford project and delivering projects across Wales from that learning?

Thanks very much. It was very much my pleasure, along with the Deputy First Minister, to go and open formally that Rhydaman flood alleviation scheme last week, a £6 million investment. As you say, lots of people are benefiting from that. I think we've got to remember that all the time: this is about supporting people who can be really traumatised by the impact of floods on their homes. It was great to meet Rosa Lee, who was one of the people in that community who was going to benefit. I'd like to thank Natural Resources Wales for their hard work in delivering yet another major flood alleviation scheme in Wales.

The Rhydaman scheme is just one example of the many schemes we're delivering through our record £75 million flood and coastal risk management programme. What we know is that climate change is changing the way that our communities work and live. It is having an impact day in and day out. We've seen Boris wreak havoc this week; not the Boris we are familiar with, with a big mop of white hair, but this is Boris in eastern Europe, where we have seen a significant impact on communities in that area. This is not going away, we have to take it seriously, and of course, we all have a responsibility to contribute in any way we can to try and reduce the issue of climate change in our communities.

And finally, question 8, Paul Davies.

Since 2022, the number of patient pathways waiting over two years has reduced by 80 per cent in Hywel Dda health board. However, there is more to be done. Through the targeted intervention escalation, my officials are working closely with the health board to improve access to safe and timely health and care.

First Minister, as you know, Hywel Dda University Health Board has decided to close St David's Surgery and disperse around 3,000 patients to practices further afield. This includes elderly patients and those with limited travel options, who will now no longer be able to access local medical care. You'll be aware of the public meeting recently held, where over 150 people met to discuss how best to appeal against the health board's decision and even discussed the possibility of buying the current surgery building as a community asset. I'm sure you'll agree with me it's not acceptable that the city of St David's will no longer have access to a local GP surgery. The community is right to call on the Welsh Government to intervene, given it has the power to do so. Therefore, First Minister, will you join me and, together, stand up for the people of St David's and fight against the health board's plan so that residents can continue to receive GP services in their local community? They deserve no less.

Thanks very much. I obviously have to declare an interest in relation to this surgery, because it serves many members of my family. The decision on what happens in relation to how health is organised is one for the health board, and there are established procedures for handling proposals for changes to delivery of those local services. We know that the St David's Surgery notified Hywel Dda University Health Board in April of the intention to hand back that contract. Services are due to end in October. I know that the health board carried out engagement with residents about the future of services, because I was there. It is important, though, to know that Llais was engaged throughout that process.

It's not just about a building. Buying a building is not just what it's about. You've actually got to staff these places, and to attract people to work in those surgeries we need to put significant additional sums of money on the table. Part of the reason for handing back that contract was because it was difficult to get people to work in that surgery. I know that the plan is to establish and to keep in St David's a nurse-led service, and I think that will be important for, in particular, the elderly in that area.

I thank the First Minister.

The next item is postponed. That's item 3, questions to the Counsel General.

We will now move to item 4, a motion to suspend Standing Orders to allow the next item of business to take place. The First Minister to move formally.

Formally.

Are there any objections to the proposal to suspend Standing Orders? There are none. Therefore, that is agreed.

That allows us to take item 5, the motion to approve the nomination of a Counsel General. I call on the First Minister to make that nomination. Eluned Morgan.

I nominate Julie James for the role of Counsel General, and I ask Members to support her nomination.

There are no other speakers. The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? No. Therefore, the motion is agreed and Julie James has been elected Counsel General. We wish her well with that work.

The next item is the business statement and announcement. I call on the Trefnydd to make that statement. Jane Hutt.

Thank you very much, Llywydd. There are several changes to this week's business, as set out on the Plenary agenda. Draft business for the next three weeks is set out on the business statement and announcement, which is available to Members electronically. 

Trefnydd, can I call for a statement from the Cabinet Secretary for health on palliative care and end-of-life care in Wales? As many Members of the Senedd will know, we recently received a copy of Marie Curie's report on better end of life. It was looking at patient experiences and end-of-life care across the whole of England and Wales. Unfortunately, there were some concerning findings in relation to Wales, including that 36 per cent of people were severely or overwhelmingly affected by pain in their final weeks of life, while 19 per cent had no contact with their GP in the final three months of life. I’m sure we’ll all agree that those statistics need to be addressed. Whilst the Welsh Government’s quality statement on palliative and end-of-life care was ambitious and very good on paper, it’s important, obviously, that that’s put into practice. So, I do think that it would be good to receive an update from the Minister so that we can have a discussion, as Members in this Chamber, in order to make those ambitions that we have a reality.

Secondly, can I call for a statement from the Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary with responsibility for climate change? We’ve all celebrated, quite rightly, in this Chamber the wonderful achievement that Wales has had in terms of recycling rates, but there are some concerns in my own constituency in parts of Denbighshire regarding the very poorly handled roll-out of the new recycling system that requires people to separate their waste at the kerbside. It is a matter of great confusion to my constituents that they are required to separate the waste only for it to then be co-mingled back again into the back of the lorries that trundle through their communities. Clearly, the Welsh Government has the ultimate responsibility for making sure that local authorities do a good job, and they’ve invested heavily in this new scheme in Denbighshire. So, can we have a written statement from the Minister on what involvement the Welsh Government is having with Denbighshire in order to support them to get this system right once and for all so that people aren’t putting up with these painful experiences of seeing their waste remingled after they’ve gone to the efforts of sorting it out?

Thank you very much, Darren Millar. I think it’s really important to acknowledge, as you do and we all do across the Chamber and with the cross-party group, that we work to deliver palliative care and end-of-life care in partnership. We work with the NHS, working at the forefront, in partnership with the charities and the delivery services of Marie Curie. That’s just one example, because we have so many hospices across Wales run by many different local and national organisations. So, it’s that close partnership that is crucial. As you acknowledge, the Welsh Government policy and statement is delivered in partnership and our ambition is to deliver the best palliative and end-of-life care. Every year, I launch the Great Daffodil Appeal campaign from Marie Curie, and I think it’s an opportunity to acknowledge the staff who work within palliative care services, particularly the nurses who are not just working in hospices, but also in the community. I’m sure that the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care will be looking at how he can update on the achievements that are being made.

Yes, the Deputy First Minister is here and has acknowledged that there is still an ongoing issue with implementation in terms of the delivery of the new recycling arrangements by Denbighshire County Council. It is, of course, to move to that source-segregated recycling service, which many of us in this Chamber now very much embrace and live with, and it works incredibly well. It’s actually to bring Denbighshire in line with the blue collections blueprint. So, I think I have been reassured that recent reports of food waste being mixed with other recycling, for example, which had been raised, was a one-off incident. There’s more training and awareness raising of best practice amongst the operatives who, again, let’s acknowledge the operatives in our recycling nation—we are a recycling nation, right at the forefront globally—but it is our operatives who actually deliver that service. But I have to say the ongoing improvements to the service resulted in over 99 per cent of recycling in Denbighshire being collected as it should during last week. But I think that the Deputy First Minister will want to update, as you advise.

Trefnydd, I'd like to ask for two statements in terms of Senedd business, please. First of all, an assurance that there'll be consistency, now, in terms of Government business, now that a Government has been appointed, rather than last-minute changes and the uncertainty that faced us before the summer recess and over the past week in terms of today's business. Secondly, I'd like to ask when a list of ministerial responsibilities will be shared so that we can know which Cabinet Secretary or Minister is responsible for what. There are so many challenges facing Wales and this uncertainty is help to no-one in Wales. So, there is a great deal of need for that.

Also, in terms of my region, I’d like to ask for an update in terms of the review of the Learner Travel (Wales) Measure 2008. We found out that there isn’t additional funding, and we understand that, but I would like to understand, from the Cabinet Secretary for transport, and also the Cabinet Secretary for Education, what assessment has been made of the impact of this on learner attendance. How will we ensure that learners can get to school, because I hear already about major challenges—specifically related to Cardiff—that are stopping learners from getting to school, because there is no school transport and the buses aren’t available? So, we need to have assurances on this if we want our pupils to get to school.

Diolch yn fawr, Heledd Fychan. And, yes, we now, today, have had our first Business Committee coming together, and I appreciate that we do need to demonstrate as a Welsh Government that we are ready for business, to deliver, and I think you’ll very shortly hear the priorities of our First Minister. I was very struck by the fact that, as she said, she is captain of the ship, and we need to make sure, with, of course, our colleagues across the Senedd, that our Government business is clear and understandable, and, indeed, that that allows for the scrutiny that we expect. And I think we’ve already had an excellent example of that in how constructive the First Minister’s questions session has been with our new First Minister, Eluned Morgan, at the helm.

But it is important as well that we’ve set out the business statement for the next three weeks, and we went through that in our Business Committee business this morning, quite appropriately. And I can assure you that the ministerial responsibilities are being finalised today, and we’ll be able to share those with all Members of the Senedd.

Just also to say that we have a full afternoon of business today—Government business—which is very important, on key policies, not just the priorities of our Government, led by the First Minister, but also all of the other issues, policy issues and priorities through the afternoon. So, we will hear from the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Welsh Language on public sector pay. Very importantly, later on this afternoon, we will also hear from our education Cabinet Secretary on our wonderful roll-out of free school meals, acknowledging that that was one of the great achievements of our co-operation agreement.

I will ask the education Minister for an update on how the review of the learner travel Measure is taking place, how it’s being implemented, and where there are issues. And you’ve raised some today from your region, and I will draw that to her attention.

I’d like a statement from the Cabinet Secretary for health on drug shortages and problems arising from the serious shortage protocols, particularly when it comes to hormone replacement therapy. Between 2022 and 2023 there was a 47 per cent increase in prescriptions for HRT items, and in Wales, since 2015, the number of HRT prescriptions has increased by more than 90 per cent, which, alongside manufacturing and distribution problems, has led to a shortage of HRT items across the UK.

I’m also hearing from women in my constituency who are facing difficulties with finding alternative drugs, as there is no joined-up IT system that people can use to locate an alternative drug. This makes the serious shortage protocols redundant, as many pharmacies are running out of alternative HRT products, and there is no system for patients to check where the available drugs are located. Instead, they are having to hop from one pharmacy to another, to see if appropriate alternative products are in stock. Impeded access to these drugs can be very unpleasant for women, leading to hot flushes, panic attacks, mood changes and osteoporosis, amongst a litany of distressing symptoms.

So, could the Welsh Government update me, therefore, as to how they are working with manufacturers to ensure the continued supply of HRT products, and will the Welsh Government review the serious shortage protocols and provide a way for patients to locate alternative drugs where the one prescribed is unavailable? Thank you. 

Well, thank you very much for that very important question, Gareth Davies. And just to say that any disruption to a medicine supply is so concerning to the people who need it, and, indeed, to their clinicians as well, because this is something where, obviously, that patient relationship, in primary care, particularly—. You focused on the impact it has in terms of the lack of HRT products. Of course, this is not just a problem for patients in Wales, it's a much wider UK and global problem. So, I'm also very pleased that the First Minister, as part of her priorities, actually—I'm sure this comes through from her experience as being Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care—focused on women's health, and we have a women's health plan. This is where we need to join up and recognise the impacts that this particular shortage has in relation to HRT products. So, I will ask the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care to provide an update on access to HRT products.

Welcome back to your role, Trefnydd.

Llancaiach Fawr Manor and Blackwood Miners' Institute both face imminent closure by Caerphilly council. I'd like the Welsh Government to make a statement urgently to address the vital importance of keeping cultural sites like these open for the public. Our valleys were shaped by our history. Llancaiach Fawr brings that history to life. They are actors who take tours of the building, and take you back in time. You can't put a price on how valuable that experience can be, for children in particular. And Blackwood Miners' is a venue that was opened nearly 100 years ago, paid for by the miners, to ensure that the committee has somewhere to go for concerts, for entertainment, for joy. Why shouldn't our valleys have that joy and those places that make life worth living? These sites, Trefnydd, are more than buildings. A consultation proposing to close them ended this week. It happened over the summer, when so many of us would be away, when our Senedd was in recess, and our requests to extend the consultation were refused. So, can the Welsh Government make an urgent intervention, and can you do everything possible to ensure that, if the council does close these sites, they will be saved for the community and for future generations?

Thank you, Delyth Jewell. I hope you found it helpful that I was able to meet with you, in my former capacity as Cabinet Secretary for culture, only in the last week or so, to address these issues, and indeed also having the same discussions with Hefin David as well, as the local Senedd Member. Of course, as we discussed at that meeting, it is an issue for Caerphilly county council, and the consultation has come to a conclusion. I think it's important for the Senedd also, on record, to know that the Arts Council of Wales is very engaged with this, monitoring the situation, keeping the Welsh Government updated on developments. The Arts Council of Wales provided a detailed response to Caerphilly council's consultation, and, indeed, their interest in this is that, in 2023-24, the Arts Council of Wales invested over £255,000 in arts activity in Caerphilly, with Blackwood Miners' Institute accounting directly for 54 per cent of this. So, this is very much an ongoing matter and discussion that is being considered.

Business Secretary, I'd like to request a statement from the Cabinet Secretary for Transport and North Wales regarding the new penalty fare zone expansion by Transport for Wales. I've recently been contacted by a constituent—and there are many like this one—who, in this particular case, would usually purchase a ticket on the train for their journey from Llanhilleth to Cardiff, where a discount would be applied with their TfW concessionary travel card. However, from Monday last week, this was no longer an option on TfW services, as passengers will be fined if found boarding a train without a ticket. Despite ticketing machines being placed in stations, there are still no options to have the concessionary option applied to particular travellers. And it's also worth noting that they're often out of service or delayed, with long queues of people trying to purchase tickets, particularly in stations where there's only one machine. As if the over-60s haven't been punished enough in the past week by the Labour Government, unfortunately, this is now often the case, particularly for elderly people across Wales, who want to be able to access the concession when they're travelling. Unfortunately now, they're being fined by TfW for not having a ticket on board. I'd therefore be grateful for a statement on how the Welsh Government aims to rectify this issue, so that commuters can rightfully claim their discount through the machines in stations without being forced to go without it, because they are currently rightfully afraid of getting a penalty fare. Thank you.

Thank you very much for that question. I think this is one of those questions where it would be useful if you write directly to the Cabinet Secretary for Transport and North Wales, just to highlight this example. Because if it's reflected elsewhere, it's important to see the impact that it has had in terms of that particular ticketing and concessionary arrangement. I'm also aware, of course, that the Cabinet Secretary has his oral Senedd questions next week as well. But I think, in the meantime, it would be very helpful to raise this particular case, so that he can look into what has happened and what the circumstances are. 

May I ask for a statement, either from the Minister for rural affairs or the Minister with responsibility for planning, or perhaps both together if truth be told, on the situation in terms of dealing with planning applications related to chicken sheds in Wales? We know that many things are sitting on ministerial tables waiting for decisions to be made and have been like that for quite some time. We need a timetable, at least, to have clarity on what the expectations of these individuals should be.

But I also want to refer to a slightly different issue, namely, of course, the animal welfare requirements that supermarkets are now placing on producers when it comes to poultry, where they are asking for more space for poultry in the sheds. And to maintain the level of production, those producers do have to have more space, so they'll have to build a new shed. Although they don't have more poultry, there will be no more waste and so on, they will need more space. I know of one food business in north Wales, which is working with producers across Wales, that will need 24 additional sheds just to remain at a standstill. So, there will be a number of planning applications coming to Government before February, and I'd like to hear from the Ministers what their plans are to deal with those effectively and to ensure that those applications are dealt with in a reasonable and timely manner when it comes to delivering this by February. 

Diolch yn fawr, Llyr. This is something where we have the Deputy First Minister here in the Chamber. He will have heard that question. 

Thank you for your very important question. 

I think it is also a question relating to planning. But it is particularly important in terms of the sector, in terms of the provision of chicken sheds, but also it's a question of animal welfare as well, which, of course, is part of the Deputy First Minister's responsibility, because animal welfare is a priority for this Government, and also we have very clear regulations set down: the Welfare of Farmed Animals (Wales) Regulations 2007, for example, setting down detailed conditions under which farmed animals must be kept. But it is important for the industry, for the sector, for animal welfare, so I'm grateful that question has been asked this afternoon.

Trefnydd, can I ask for an urgent statement on bovine TB in Wales? The First Minister and Deputy First Minister attended the Pembrokeshire show this year, where the NFU Cymru highlighted that 40 per cent—40 per cent—of all cattle culled in Wales in the last 12 months came from the one county of Pembrokeshire alone. This is a staggering statistic and is deeply traumatic to those farmers involved. Indeed, 20 per cent of the cattle herds in Pembrokeshire are operating under TB restrictions and this is unacceptable. And this has an impact on the animal welfare, but let's not forget the farmers in dealing with bovine TB as well, as 85 per cent of NFU Cymru members who took part in the bovine TB survey had said that TB has negatively impacted the mental health of them and their families. So, could I ask for an urgent statement from the Cabinet Secretary for rural affairs on bovine TB in Wales, especially given that the UK Government is making regressive steps in its own TB eradication policy, despite clear peer-reviewed progress being made? Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. 

Diolch, Sam Kurtz. Yes, I think, many of us attended our agricultural shows in our communities. I certainly attended the Vale show, along with colleagues here today. But also, obviously, this was a discussion with the farming community and their trade unions—NFU, FUW—I'm sure, and the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister were privy to that. And we realise the impact of bovine TB, and also I certainly learnt in the summer about how the farming community take their own measures to address it at a very local place-based level. But, again, the Cabinet Secretary for rural affairs and Deputy First Minister has heard the question, and I'm sure when he has his oral questions, but also prior to that, there will be an opportunity to update on the Welsh Government response. 

May I ask for a statement by the new Cabinet Secretary for Economy, Energy and Planning about Welsh Government plans to look again at the planning conditions that enabled a developer to create a housing estate in Brynteg on Ynys Môn? Brynteg is a beautiful village. It's a wonderful estate of houses that looks appropriate for local families, but the homes are available to purchasers of second homes only. Planning consent was given in 2010. The second phase is now for sale at cheap prices, at a time when it's becoming increasingly difficult for local people who hope to get their feet on the housing ladder to rent or buy a home. The planning conditions were intended to promote economic activity, and, in and of itself, that is an acceptable principle. But I'm sure that the Trefnydd would agree with me and a number of residents of Ynys Môn in terms of our frustration that planning and planning regulations enable a development such as this that excludes local families from purchasing homes. So, a statement would be an opportunity for us to hear a commitment from the Minister to look again at the planning conditions to ensure that developments such as this cannot happen.

Diolch yn fawr, Rhun ap Iorwerth. This is such an important issue, as we see some of the really positive results, I would say, as a result of the second homes policy that we developed together, and how we see that that is beginning to have a positive impact in enabling housing to be made available to our local people and local communities. I can’t comment on the one housing estate in Brynteg that you highlight today, but, clearly, we have our new Cabinet Secretary for Economy, Energy and Planning, and, of course, this very much links to the responsibilities of the Cabinet Secretary for Housing and Local Government. I think that point is well made in terms of their response to these issues.

Could I call for a single statement, please, on support for the north Wales economy? The leader of Wrexham council has said it would be truly disappointing if the £20 million town fund allocated to Wrexham is scrapped by the Labour UK Government, which was part of a long-term investment plan for towns overlooked and taken for granted, including four in Wales. He added that, on top of that, there are rumours that the north Wales investment zone of £160 million could be pulled. If that would happen, that would be a disaster for Wrexham and Flintshire because that was supposed to bring in around £1 billion-worth of investment within the two counties. This follows statements during the summer casting doubt over the billion-pound plan to electrify the north Wales rail line, and plans to build a large nuclear power station at Wylfa in Anglesey—announcements by UK Government Ministers. We therefore need to know what action, if any, the Welsh Government is taking to fight for these schemes—schemes, although Conservative Government schemes, which secured largely cross-party support in the region—or is north Wales going to have to wait several years to bid for the next round of schemes before further delay occurs once again? I call for a statement accordingly because the region doesn’t wish and cannot afford to lose out on potentially hundreds of millions and billions of pounds of investment it was already planning to invest.

Thank you, Mark Isherwood. This is something that, of course, the Cabinet Secretary for Transport and North Wales is very mindful of, but indeed also the Cabinet Secretary for Economy, Energy and Planning. I have to say, this goes back to some of our discussions earlier on this afternoon. Of course, this pause at the moment in terms of what is going to happen next in terms of—. The previous Conservative Government’s very narrow and very insular, and without Welsh Government engagement, decisions about this funding has put us in this position. And it's put us in this position because of the black hole that you have left us, the £22 billion black hole, and, I’m sorry, you’re going to hear this a lot from us, because it’s the truth in terms of the mess that you’ve left us in. Actually, we never saw the money that was promised to us post structural funds, post Brexit, and then you had this very pork-barrel, where-there-happened-to-be-a-Conservative-MP scheme. And, I'm sorry, I want this to be reconsidered, let alone the UK Government reconsider it. So, Mark, yes of course we accept that Wrexham is a fantastic town, there are lots of prospects, and it's all being looked at, the local authority, the Senedd Member here herself, Lesley Griffiths, but let's just put this in context as to how we've come to this position.

And finally, Paul Davies. 

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Trefnydd, I'd like to call for a statement on the delivery of ambulance services from the new Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care. Now, ambulance staff have raised concerns with me about services in Pembrokeshire, and I was alarmed to hear that 30 beds are to be removed from Withybush hospital and Glangwili hospital in due course. I was also alarmed to hear that ambulances dispatched to Pembrokeshire are no longer ring-fenced to return, and the priority is to clear the backlog at Glangwili hospital before any backlogs at Withybush hospital. Now, staff told me that they are facing more paperwork and targets than ever before. They now have a target of 15 minutes to do a patient handover with A&E and 15 minutes to restock and clean the ambulance. Needless to say, morale amongst staff is extremely low, so staff are not inclined to work overtime, particularly at night, as they feel that they could spend significant amounts of time in an ambulance waiting to discharge patients. And so, in light of the seriousness of the concerns raised, I believe that we need a statement now from the new Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care to address some of these concerns as soon as possible.

Thank you, Paul Davies. It is very important for Members to get feedback on the delivery of their local services, and ambulance services are absolutely at the forefront of the response of our NHS and are under huge pressure in terms of the increased demand on our ambulance services and urgent and emergency care. But, our new Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care is closely looking at every service that we deliver, back to the priorities of our First Minister, and I know that the ambulance services will be part of that review. But it's also really important, again, to us to recognise the work of our paramedics and our ambulance services. And we see that over the summer, in particular, I'm sure, in your constituency and area—the pressures through the summer months, the visitor and tourist season as well. But this is something that the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care, of course, will be looking at.

I thank the Trefnydd. 

Item 7 is postponed until 24 September.

Item 8 has been withdrawn.

Item 9 is postponed until 24 September also. 

Item 10 this afternoon is a statement by the First Minister on Government priorities, and I call on the First Minister, Eluned Morgan. 

Diolch yn fawr, Dirprwy Lywydd. When I stood before you six weeks ago, I promised to be a First Minister who listens, but I made it clear that I want to listen not just to those with the loudest voices or those with the most power, but to everyone to ensure we focus on the issues that matter most to the people of Wales. And that is exactly what I and my colleagues have done. Over the summer, as First Minister, I’ve spoken with hundreds of people in every corner of Wales. Over 7,000 people responded to a Labour Party survey in terms of what they would like us to prioritise as a Welsh Government. So, before I go any further, I want to thank everyone who took the time to share their hopes, concerns and opinions with me and my colleagues, whether online or in person. We've had an incredible response.

Your voices have shaped the work of your new Welsh Labour Government. We’ve listened to people in our town centres, workers in Airbus, students in Bridgend, visitors to agricultural shows in Pembrokeshire, members of black, Asian and ethnic minority communities in Swansea, and we even had responses from a Men’s Shed in Maesteg. And you've given us in Government a clear message: health and social care, particularly addressing those long waiting times for treatment, are the top priorities. There’s also a strong desire for us to make faster progress on improving education standards, and in creating jobs and growing the economy over the next 18 months. There is also still real concern around the roll-out of the 20 mph speed limits and a desire to see changes on specific roads.

Across the whole of Wales, including in Pontypridd and in Wrexham, I heard from people who had positive personal experiences with the health service, but they were worried about overall pressure on the system and on waiting times. In Torfaen, young women told me that they wanted more support for mental health and women's health issues, like period pains and endometriosis.

The business community and housing developers in our capital city told me that they wanted to see us speed up the planning process. In Brecon, I was told that school standards need to be raised, and many across Wales told me how they were struggling to pay their rent. One man told me that his family was delaying having a second child due to worries over rising costs, and wanted better paid, quality jobs. In the Valleys, people called for better public transport links. In Connah's Quay, nearly every conversation was about the need to fix the roads.

Now, these conversations, and many others like them, have helped define this Government's priorities. We are listening. Now, we can't do everything, so we are setting priorities. Having listened to people's concerns, ambitions and hopes, which chime with our values in Welsh Labour, we will move forward through the remainder of this Senedd term to drive progress in four key areas.

The first is to provide iechyd da—good health. We will cut NHS waiting times, including for mental health, we'll improve access to social care, and we'll improve services for women's health. Secondly, alongside the UK Government, we will focus on green jobs and growth. We'll create jobs that not only tackle the climate crisis, but help make families better off and restore nature. And we'll accelerate planning decisions to grow our Welsh economy.

One of the things that inspired me to enter politics was watching the wasted talents and abilities of those who were not being given a chance. So, we are going to ensure opportunities for every family. We will boost standards in our schools and colleges and provide more homes for social rent, ensuring that every family has the chance to succeed. And we will be connecting communities. We will transform our railways and deliver a better bus network. We'll fix our roads and empower local communities to make choices on 20 mph. I'm proud to announce these priorities today, alongside a brilliant Cabinet team, who will be responsible for delivering on these priorities.

A lot has been done. There is a lot to do. But there's a heck of a lot to lose if we don't get this right. We are a Government that has a deep sense of service to you, the people of Wales. That's why we will keep listening but, more importantly, delivering. Delivery, accountability and improved productivity will be the watchwords of my Government—making things happen on the people's priorities. And this will include more transparency and visibility for the public, so that taxpayers know where things are going well and where there is room for improvement. This clear concentration on priorities, alongside a transformation in the way that we monitor delivery, will sharpen our focus.

I have appointed a Minister for Delivery, who will help to drive this change. Over the next few weeks, we will develop a comprehensive list of what will be delivered, by when, and by whom, within the financial resources that we have available. Then, the Cabinet will meet monthly to monitor the progress of the most important missions and ambitions.

But, if we are to achieve our shared ambitions, we must be honest and we must be realistic. Tough decisions lie ahead. We must prioritise the Government's limited time and resources. I know that this won’t be easy, and I know the damage that 14 years of Conservative mismanagement has done to the UK's public finances. As Nye Bevan, the founder of the NHS, said, the language of priorities is the religion of socialism. That phrase doesn't quite work in Welsh.

'The language of priorities is the religion of socialism.'

That's what Aneurin Bevan said. I believe in those words. That's what we're going to do in Government: determine what our priorities will be.

Today, we have the best opportunity in more than 14 years to realise our ambitions for Wales. For too long, Conservative-led Westminster Governments have stifled our devolved powers and tried to temper our ambitions at every opportunity. But now we have change.

Just a few days ago, the agreement between Tata Steel and the UK Government showed how having a Labour Government in Westminster benefits the lives of people in Wales, and how those benefits will continue. Now in Government, the Labour Party has made a commitment to a national wealth fund worth £2.5 billion to rebuild the steel industry. The redundancy packages being offered to steelworkers are more generous than those offered under the Conservatives six months ago. I will be making a more detailed statement about the steel industry later today.

Now we have partnership in power: two Labour Governments working together for Wales. This is the moment for us to raise our ambitions, and we've already shown what we can do together. Because, last week, we announced pay offers for public sector workers that have risen more than the cost of living and inflation, fully accepting the pay recommendations from independent pay review bodies, and reflecting the views of the public who've told us on the streets over the summer that public services and the people who work in them matter. That means a 5.5 per cent pay award for teachers, 6 per cent for doctors and dentists, including GPs, with an additional £1,000 for junior doctors, and 5.5 per cent for NHS staff on 'Agenda for Change' terms and conditions.

Inflation-busting increases in pay for public sector workers aren't just numbers. This is real, hard-earned money in the pockets of people who work tirelessly, day in and day out, in our precious public services, and they deserve our support. They are the backbone of the services that we rely on, and the public told us time and time again on the streets, 'Support our public services.'

By focusing on the priorities of the people of Wales, we will build a nation where everybody feels valued, respected and heard: a fairer, greener and more prosperous nation that gives people the confidence to start a family or grow a business, a Wales where every young person can feel happy and hopeful for the future. We've listened, we've learned and we will deliver. Diolch.

First Minister, thank you for your statement this afternoon. I think this is the seventh legislative statement/First Minister priority statement/programme for government statement that we've had in the last 12 months from the Labour Party here in the Senedd. It's no wonder that, obviously, those charged with delivering this, the civil servants and the other public servants who work diligently across Wales, really don't know which way to turn when they're trying to implement some of this policy framework. Because, as the First Minister touched on in her statement, she said that people were telling her about 20 mph, they were telling her about fixing the roads. Well, it was the previous Labour Government that changed policy positions to take investment away from roads and into other transport models. Now, that's a perfect policy position to take, but it's your party that made that decision. And 20 mph, obviously, was your Government's, or the previous Government's, decision to implement that on a nationwide basis, and now local authorities are having to divert resources to unpick the spaghetti that they find of requests before them to try and put roads back to 30 mph, which constituents and the people of Wales are saying is the commonsense approach.

So, the worry from this statement is that it is so light on the way that these initiatives will be delivered. The First Minister took aim at the chief executives of the health service in her interview on BBC Wales on Sunday. Six of those seven chief executives have been appointed since 2021. The Minister's time as health Minister was the same window, so she actually appointed six of those seven chief executives that she said now need to step up the plate and deliver on waiting times. The Welsh Government set a blueprint of how they were going to reduce waiting times within the NHS, but have missed every target to get rid of those waiting times that have proved so stubbornly high, and, in fact, over the last couple of months, have started to go back up. So, what does the First Minister believe, in her role as First Minister, she can do to push those waiting times down that she couldn't do when she was health Minister? Because we've heard it all before, First Minister. Time and time again Labour Ministers have come to this Chamber to say that waiting lists are the priority. Well, the proof is in the pudding. The waiting lists are going up here in Wales, and, when we look at social care, 20 per cent of beds in Welsh hospitals are occupied by people who could be in the community, in their own homes, being looked after, and social care is as important a part of this equation as the health service itself, and I notice that it's very little talked of in this policy position paper that the Government have brought forward today.

When it comes to education, nothing on absenteeism, tackling absenteeism, which is stubbornly high in some of our poorest communities. Thirty-eight per cent in some of our communities have regular absenteeism in families that are missing life-chance opportunities through the education system. The statement is silent on that. It is silent on what you intend to do with university funding, where many of our universities find their backs against the wall. And I'd be grateful if the First Minister could highlight how the Government is going to address those two key components of absenteeism and investment in our universities.

And when it comes to the economy, there is a statement on Tata Steel later, so I'll leave the First Minister to address those issues around Tata Steel in that statement. But the sustainable farming scheme doesn't even get a mention in this statement, and it is our biggest employer, with the food processing sector and the agricultural community producing food for this country, but also for the export opportunities that exist around the globe. Nothing, no mention at all of that in the priority statement, despite all the rhetoric from the Deputy First Minister that he and you were listening as you went round Wales.

I'd also highlight the auditor general's recent report around housing targets, the Government's own social housing targets of 20,000 units to be built over the lifetime of this Senedd, and the auditor general pointing out that the Government were on track to miss that target. No reference as to how you're going to get yourself back on target and back building for Wales. We know in the commercial sector you are missing the goal of producing enough houses on a sustainable, regular, planned basis. You talk about reforming the planning system. Well, planning Ministers have come here time and time again from the Labour benches and have failed to bring forward a planning system that can meet the economic opportunities that exist with a responsive planning system that will get Wales building, creating quality jobs and homes for the future.

And I'd also like to try and understand, with the appointment of the finance Minister coming back into Government—. We saw the passion with which he spoke about reforming the school year. Is that back on the table now that the finance Minister is back within the Government? Was that extracted from you when he had his discussions about agreeing to serve and being the anchor in the Government? Because, equally, the other part of the Government programme that was jettisoned recently was council tax reforms. Is there any talk of bringing back the council tax reforms that were part and parcel of two, if not three, years of this Senedd term?

And you talk of delivery. Every First Minister since my time here that has come to this Chamber has talked of delivery units, setting up a Cabinet Office, and delivery is the heart of everything the Government does. Well, no First Minister is going to come here and say, ‘We're not going to deliver.’ But how are you actually going to be different in the way you will deliver over the next 20 months the priorities that you say are in this statement? I have to say—

Andrew, you need to conclude now, please.

—it's the lightest First Minister's statement I've seen at an opening of a Senedd term. You do need to step up to the plate, your Ministers need to step up to the plate, and this statement won't change the direction, won't move the needle. And the sooner we get to 2026 and we have that chance to change direction here in Wales, the better for the people of Wales. 

Well, I've got to tell you, these are the priorities that come from the public, and, if you don't like them, you need to go out and speak to the public. Because this is important, to recognise that the things that we've stated here very clearly are the things that are of most importance to the public. Now, let's be clear that we still have a legal responsibility to deliver on a whole host of areas that we will, of course, carry out as we need to as a Government. But this is about focusing our attention. It's about making sure we hone in on the areas that people care most about. 

Now, if you just take the issue of some of the things that he talked about, about ensuring that we deliver. What is going to be different, for example, compared to when I was health Minister? Well, first of all, I was never the person who appointed the chief executives; I appoint the chairs, and it's the chairs who hold the chief executives to account. And I was getting them in on a monthly basis to really quiz them on what is happening within their health boards. And we will be doing a lot more of that in future, but also really looking at the transparency of that, because I do think the public have a right to know how their health board is performing compared to others. We will have to work out exactly to what level of granularity we go into that, but that is something that will change in future. But, obviously, taking that forward now will be the responsibility of the new health Minister, and I know that he is going to be absolutely focused on this. 

But let me tell you something else that's going to change is that we have a delivery Minister, and the delivery Minister will be responsible for making sure that, actually, everyone across Government is a part of this process, that we're all held to account—we're all held to account. And we will be having a monthly Cabinet meeting that will be solely focused on delivery, where everybody will have to contribute their skills, their abilities, their knowledge to the issues that are of most importance to the public. 

Of course, we are very keen to see things like reform of the planning system, but there's a huge number of people in different departments across Government who will be able to contribute to that debate, and that's why getting the whole of Government involved in this will be important. So, it is clear that we will carry on doing the kind of day in, day out work that Government has to do, but this is about focusing on the issues that are of most importance to the public in Wales. That's what we will do. We've set it out here. We will not be diverted from those priorities and, of course, we know that we're going to be judged on it within 18 months.  

May I thank the First Minister for the statement? And, at the beginning of the parliamentary term, I wish her very well in her work. I will encourage her to show real ambition every day, but, unfortunately, the evidence presented through this statement doesn't give one much confidence. A practical question at the outset, if I may. I was under the impression that it was a Government consultation that was being staged this summer. I'm quite sure that the First Minister used public money to do that work, but then she said it that it was a survey by the Labour Party that was held, and data gathered by the Labour Party. So, perhaps the First Minister could explain what exactly the nature of that relationship was. There's something that isn't quite right there, but, certainly, it confirms—and that's important—that this was a piece of work to calm the waters within the Labour Party, rather than something for the benefit of the people of Wales. 

The First Minister calls what happened this summer a consultation; I call it a public relations exercise. What I saw was a summer of silence. The First Minister didn't even think it worthwhile to immediately appoint a permanent Government, waiting until last week to do that. I'd suggest that, politically, that was time wasted on her behalf, but if you're a patient on a waiting list or a parent worried about your child's education, or looking for employment opportunities and worried about a stagnant economy, then certainly that has been a wasted six weeks. And the result of the exercise, as we've been told today—surprise, surprise—was that health and education and the economy were the top priorities. Goodness me, if a party that's been leading Welsh Government for 25 years hadn't realised that those were the priorities, then we're in deeper trouble with Labour than I thought. 

And, of course, on health and on education and economic development, and, yes, on roads, the other priority outlined in this very, very thin statement today, and, in fact, all those other elements that weren't even mentioned—agriculture being one of those—all of this is a legacy of 25 years of Governments led by Labour. Now, they can be proud that people trusted them to lead our Governments in this first quarter century of devolution, but they also have to own the state of public services after those 25 years. To lead and to govern means taking responsibility. And, if I might say, if Eluned Morgan is adamant that we shouldn't reference Keir Starmer—and I presume she means any other UK Prime Minister—in our questions to her, as she said earlier, she must therefore acknowledge that outcomes are those for Labour in Wales, and wholly for Labour in Wales to justify.

Now, the legacy of the longest ever waiting lists, the fall in school standards, low wages, all show us that Labour Governments have had their opportunity and have failed. I know what people tell me, not just in a few weeks of consultation to calm the waters, but consistently. What they tell me is that they need hope for a sustainable NHS, for an education system that is strengthening. And do you know what, that hope has become very scarce under Labour Governments now, and that's why we need a fresh start, and we are offering that. That was true before the last general election; now, Labour's allegiance to their masters in Westminster is developing to be more of a problem than I'd even feared—that unwillingness to fight Wales's corner properly, lest that they muddy the waters. We cannot afford to have such a Government.

Now, on reforming the Barnett formula, on HS2 consequentials, on devolving the Crown Estate, on justice and policing, Labour's message to Wales is 'no', it's 'no', it's 'no'. So, let me ask the First Minister to take action on these areas of priority. Firstly, issue a genuine public reprimand to the Prime Minister for cutting winter fuel payments to pensioners, and maintaining the two-child cap too. It would be at least a signal that the well of clear red water that was once mentioned isn't running completely dry. She had an opportunity to do so earlier; she chose loyalty to Keir Starmer and to Rachel Reeves.

Secondly, set out to the Chancellor the impact that further austerity will have on public services in Wales. The First Minister must stay true, I think, to what she said in her 2018 leadership campaign. She said that:

'Ending austerity...is unlikely to happen unless we get a Labour [UK] government.'

Well, look how that's turned out.

And thirdly, own up to the crisis in the NHS and start rebuilding properly. Doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results seldom works.

Wales needs a Government that doesn't fear challenging Westminster, whoever holds the keys to No. 10 Downing Street. It's only then can we seek fairness for our nation, fair funding, constitutional fairness, a new approach to tackling poverty, the need for strategic investment in preventative healthcare, a focus on raising standards in education, on creating wealth, developing skills, increasing wages, supporting not punishing small businesses, supporting agriculture and rural Wales, and trying to retain and attract young talent. Those will be Plaid Cymru's priorities, and I look forward to giving you more detail on our vision over the next 18 months, while holding this Labour Government to account on behalf of the people of Wales. So, I'll pose this question to close: when will we have targets on health, education, on mending our roads and economic growth? Because, otherwise, this really is a thin statement this afternoon.

Well, thanks very much. I think it's expected that we've had this cynical and negative reaction from Plaid Cymru. The fact is that, in that exercise, where, genuinely, hundreds of people were engaged, unfiltered, unplanned, where they told us face to face what they wanted to happen, they didn't think it was cynical. They thought it was really refreshing to have people out there, on the streets, listening to what they are concerned about. So, yes, of course I expect that kind of negative response. In fact, it was something that came up. They kept on talking about how negative some of the opposition parties were.

But I don't accept that was a summer of silence; I think the fact that we have engaged with thousands of people across Wales was important. And let's be clear, of course this was a Government exercise, but lots of other people got engaged with that listening exercise. So, the Labour Party got involved—you were welcome to get involved as well, but maybe you chose not to. But I can tell you that the people across Wales were really happy to contribute, and I don't accept that it was a summer of silence. 

The public sector inflation-busting pay award: it was not a summer of silence for the 200,000 people who have benefited from those pay rises that will underpin the fact that we will be able to cut down on those waiting lists, because before that there were issues about how much money we were able to give them, and they weren't happy with what was offered before, because we didn't have the money from the UK Government. That's the difference a UK Government has made. That's the difference: money in people's pockets, people who are helping our public services.

The same thing with Tata: the deal that's on the table now, which I'll talk about in more detail later, is better than the deal that was on the table earlier. The fact that we were able to discuss with the police and local communities about the disturbances that happened in other parts of the country, that wasn't a summer of silence for them, and we were very pleased that those disturbances didn't break out within our communities.

I am more than happy for you to hold me to account for what Labour decisions are here in the Welsh Government, but you will not hold me to account for what they're doing in Westminster. That is not my responsibility, and I think it is important that if you wanted to do that, go to Westminster. You wanted to go there—[Interruption.] I think it's really important that we make this clear right from the beginning.

I would like to listen to the response from the First Minister. That's for all Members, please, so please give her the chance to speak.

What we know is there was a £22 billion black hole. That has had a consequence for us here in Wales. It's had a direct consequence for us, and what we know—[Interruption.]

First Minister, let's wait a second now. I asked for quiet so that I could hear the response, and as soon as the First Minister spoke, I heard voices again disturbing her. Let the First Minister respond, please.

What I will offer is hope for the future, hope to the people of Wales who have been through a really tough time. They've been through Brexit; they've been through austerity; they've been through COVID. They want to see a new chapter in the history of this nation, a new chapter that we will be able to see now, because of the engagement with that UK Labour Government. I'll take responsibility for my part; they will take responsibility for their part. But let me tell you, that co-operation already is transforming the way Wales is changing.

Firstly, may I welcome you as Wales's first female First Minister as well as the clear articulation of your Government's priority today? On behalf of the communities of Islwyn, may I thank you for spending your first weeks listening to the people?

In Islwyn, it's clear that we need our Welsh Labour Government to act decisively. Fourteen years of Tory austerity or cuts have wreaked havoc on our public services and stretched our communities to breaking point. My Islwyn constituents want to see NHS waiting times cut; they want to see living standards improved and local government financially supported, and they also want improved GP access, and in Islwyn safeguarding of loved arts organisations and venues such as Blackwood Miners' Institute, Welsh National Opera, or the Royal Welsh College of Music and Drama. First Minister, what can your Government do to ensure that local government is enabled, and that Welsh Government and the UK Government work collaboratively to improve the daily lives of the people of Wales, and that we work together across this Chamber to secure fairer, just funding for the people of Wales?

Thank you very much. Well, the major difference now is partnership in power, and that's what we've got under a Labour Government. The fact that we have had so many interactions already with Ministers in the UK Labour Government demonstrates the sea change that has happened as a result of Labour now winning the general election in the UK. We know how important local government is in terms of delivering our services, so that partnership, of course, needs to be transposed not just from here in terms of us and the UK Government working together, but us working with local government, and that's particularly true when it comes to social care and schools. That's why those two things are prioritised by the public, and those will be reflected in terms of what we do and, of course, we will be setting out some targets in terms of how we do that, and that's what we'll be doing as a Government. I've asked all of the Ministers to come up with their ideas of what can be delivered within the next 18 months, and we will be making sure that those are delivered.

I would like to welcome you to the role of First Minister, and I'm pleased to hear that you intend it to be a listening Government. I just wish that your predecessors had had the same outlook in that regard. We've seen, time after time, Government priorities being completely out of sync with what the Welsh people are concerned about and what they are asking for. Your listening exercise, in your words, has highlighted concerns about 20 mph, which was introduced a year ago today and people still have strong feelings about. We are not seeing the desired exemptions being made. Despite Welsh Government leading people to believe it has rowed back on 20 mph, there has been no substantive change in policy, and people are still angry about the fallout from this policy.

You said that health and social care were raised frequently in your listening exercise, but again we've seen the health service neglected for years by the Welsh Government. My constituents in the Vale of Clwyd have been waiting over 10 years for a community hospital to be built in north Denbighshire to take pressure off Glan Clwyd Hospital, which has some of the worst accident and emergency department waiting times in the worst performing health board in Wales.

Improving education standards also came up. We know Wales’s PISA results were the worst in the UK. None of these issues brought to your attention are a surprise, but have been raised endlessly. I'm glad that you are finally listening, but I now expect to see these areas being the Welsh Government's top priorities, as opposed to vanity projects such as Senedd reform, which shamefully has directed funding away from these priority areas that the public have brought to your attention. A constituent has never told me on the doorstep that they want a larger Senedd or that they want universal basic income trials or that their ability to travel in their car has been curtailed. I hope that you intend to follow through on the issues that the Welsh people have raised with you directly and ignore the pressure from special interest groups and idealogues who indulge in wasteful vanity schemes that do not serve the interests of this county. Thank you.

Thanks very much, Gareth, and it was great to spend quite a lot of time in north Wales, listening to the people in north Wales about what their concerns were, and they're not that different, frankly, from the concerns we heard across the rest of Wales, but it was important to engage with them, as I say, in a very unfiltered way, making sure we just rocked up without people knowing we were coming, so it was very raw, and I think people really appreciated that.

There were strong feelings, and you're quite right, the 20 mph is still an issue—I don't think we can duck that fact—but there has also been a drop in accidents, and that should also be recognised on this anniversary. In relation to that, I think what's important is that we listen, we learn, and then we ensure that there is local delivery so that we get the right speeds on the right roads. I'd like to thank all those thousands of people who've written in to their local authorities, who've told them which roads they think should be exempted under the new guidance, and I know that the transport Minister will be following that in real detail, making sure that, actually, local government is responding to the voices of those local communities, but making sure that, of course, safety is an important factor in all of this.

Despite all the talk about a reset and re-enlivening this Government, having spent nine months putting the Labour Party's priorities before governing Wales, there was a very familiar tone to hear in the priorities on health and care, because what we’ve heard today, and in recent weeks, is shockingly similar to what her predecessor said back in April. Or what his predecessor said. And indeed what his predecessor said. Look at any one of the mission statements of any of the six Labour Members here today who have held the health portfolio and you will see similar statements. And, yes, that's a shocking statistic, isn't it? There are six of you now in this Chamber who have held the health portfolio and you continue to fail. Consistency, of course, is no bad thing, but in order to have any credibility, then you have to prove that doing and saying the same thing over and over actually bears fruit. And that’s where this Government has failed, time and time again. Rather than improving standards, what we have seen is the normalisation of failure, and falling standards under Labour failures in Wales.

When the First Minister was appointed as the health Minister three and a half years ago, she effectively blamed her predecessor, saying that she didn’t realise that things were so bad. Well, things are now even worse. Waiting times have hit record highs for six consecutive months during the first half of this year, despite two First Ministers apparently putting this issue at the very top of their to-do lists. That’s only the tip of the iceberg. Barely 50 per cent of cancer patients in Wales are receiving the necessary treatment within the optimal time frame, and emergency response times are significantly slower than those in the rest of Great Britain. These issues are once again compounded and making things worse for the Government. What action is the Government going to take to improve the health service and make sure that primary care, and secondary care specifically, will be improved over the coming months?

Thanks very much. Our focus will be on the bread-and-butter issues that matter to the public in Wales. What we know is that there is immense pressure on the health service. It’s not a situation that’s unique to Wales, and it’s clear we’re not going to fix the NHS in the next 18 months. I think it’s very important that we manage expectation around that.

We recognise that the demand is enormous—2 million contacts every month in a population of 3.1 million people. That’s a lot of activity and a lot of people. What was very interesting is hearing how many people said, ‘With the NHS, my personal experience is very good, but I know that there is huge pressure on the system’. That came up time and time again. When you challenged them on ‘What’s your personal experience?’ then many, many said, ‘Mine is a good one’.

But what I can tell you is that within all of the things that we need to do within the NHS, we will be focusing on bringing those waiting lists down. But also, the other issue that came up quite often was women’s health. And it may be because you’ve now got a First Minister who’s a woman that they were more ready to talk about that. But it was an issue that came up, and that’s why we will have a particular focus on that as well in our priorities.

May I also congratulate you on becoming First Minister? It was great to be with you in Connah’s Quay, and it was amazing when we were talking with people how many said they were actually quite happy with the way things are in Wales, which is great to hear. And when people did raise health as an issue, they actually did say that they had had good experiences with healthcare as well.

But can I confirm that the biggest issue raised by everybody was potholes and highway maintenance? An example of implementing legislation and policies in a more practical and timely way going forward would be to remove the onerous bidding and restrictions for highway grant funding. Applications can often be onerous, 20 pages long, technical and bureaucratic, and take up a lot of highway officer time, which could actually be used in contracting and delivering the work. So, would you agree with the Cabinet Secretary, who has previously indicated that highway and transport funding should be devolved to local authorities to get on with their own local priorities? Thank you.  

Thanks very much. It was great to speak to so many people in Connah’s Quay. One of them was Jack Sargeant’s mum, who happened to be shopping at that particular time, so that was quite a welcome surprise. But you’re quite right; it was quite interesting that there were certain issues that came up in some areas more than others, and potholes was certainly the problem in Connah’s Quay. I think the Welsh Government was right to cut back on road building. That was a good policy. But we have to make sure that the roads that we do have are maintained. So, I’m absolutely secure in the fact that we do need to put more work into that, and I know that the Minister responsible is going to be focused on that as well.

You said you wanted to listen to people who didn’t have power, didn’t have a loud voice. Do you know who don’t have power, and who don’t have a loud voice? Children, especially children in poverty.

There was no mention made in your statement about child poverty. It’s very disappointing. I asked you when you became First Minister to put tackling child poverty at the top of your agenda and restore targets. That’s what provides delivery, First Minister—targets, targets to put an end to child poverty. When the child poverty target was dropped by the Welsh Government in 2016, we were told that this was because UK Government policy had made that target unreachable. One of those policies was the welfare reform programme, and the fact that the Welsh Government didn't have the power to make the changes that are needed to, for example, the two-child cap and the benefits cap. So, what policy decisions will the Welsh Government ask the new UK Government to make that will help you to achieve the objectives of your child poverty strategy? And will targets to end child poverty be restored now that we have a Labour Government in London?

Thanks very much. Dawn Bowden, of course, now will have responsibility for leading on the children's agenda; I'm very pleased she's taken up that role. I think one of the areas where we have been able to deliver on the issues in terms of the challenge on poverty with children is on free school meals, and the fact that, actually, there's been a roll-out of that in a really short space of time. Yes, it was part of the co-operation agreement, and I think that was a good example of working together, being focused, understanding where our abilities are as a devolved Government. We need to do what we are able to do. We have some levers; we don't have the big levers that the UK Government has. But, again, if you want to ask them for that support, ask your MPs to question Keir Starmer. That is the way this—[Interruption.] This is the way—[Interruption.] This is the way that it works: make sure that you ask your local MPs to ask Keir Starmer. Thank you very much.

You call it a partnership of power, but, apparently, only you are allowed to talk about that partnership, it would seem.

Can I ask, on another issue, apart from the fact that you've already withdrawn the gender quotas Bill, are you as the First Minister still intending to deliver all Bills that were in your predecessor's legislative programme? 

Thanks very much, Llyr. I haven't gone into the detail of the legislative programme. The quotas Bill is something that we have pulled back on, it's been paused for the time being. But that is the main thing. There will be some tweaks to one of the other Bills, in relation to the tourism and registration Bill, which you'll get more detail on in the very near future.

I thank the First Minister.

The next item is the statement by the First Minister on Tata Steel. So, the First Minister is also making this statement. The statement on Tata Steel—First Minister.

Diolch yn fawr. I'm pleased to make a statement on recent developments regarding the situation at Tata Steel. Last week, the UK Government confirmed that it had finalised a grant-funding agreement with Tata Steel for a £500 million investment contribution to Tata Steel UK’s transition to greener steel making. We all recognise that the last 12 months have been incredibly difficult for the Tata workforce, for workers in its extensive supply chain, and of course the communities affected by Tata Steel’s transition. Tata Steel is at the core of so much economic activity in Wales and at the very heart of the communities where its steel plants are located. There has been constant speculation on its future and its impact on employment, leading to frustration and anxiety. The Welsh Government, therefore, welcomes confirmation of the deal. It will bring some much-needed certainty to what will continue to be an incredibly unsettling situation for steelworkers, suppliers, and the wider communities affected across Wales.

The UK Government has been able to negotiate a much better deal than the plan announced by the previous UK Government back in September 2023. The enhanced deal confirmed last week includes 100 jobs to be set into a furlough-type scheme, funded with additional money from Tata; redundancy payments of 2.8 weeks for each year of service, which is more generous than the company has given before; a commitment that no-one will be left behind, so those at risk of compulsory redundancy, which now is expected to be no more than 500 roles, will be able to access a training scheme of up to 12 months, with one month full pay and the remainder at 60 per cent funded by the company; more stringent grant conditions, so taxpayers' money will be clawed back if these commitments are not delivered; and an active commitment to develop over the next 12 months future investment plans beyond the electric arc furnace at Tata sites in Wales. 

The UK Government has struck a better deal not just for the here and now, but for the future. This builds a bridge to a sustainable future for Welsh steel. It's not the deal we would have wished for, but, given the parameters in which the new Government had to work and the time pressures to secure the build of the new electric arc furnace, it is a substantially improved deal. The new Labour Government has committed a £2.5 billion national wealth fund for the steel sector along with a steel strategy, which will be unveiled next spring. I reconfirmed, just last week, to the Secretary of State for Business and Trade that the Welsh Government and UK Government will continue to work in partnership in relation to the future of the steel sector. 

The Welsh Government remains committed to all workers impacted by the Tata Steel UK transition and will support both the UK Government and the company in putting in place arrangements for the grant funding agreement enhancements where appropriate. A memorandum of understanding, which takes account of the enhancements agreed within the grant funding agreement, has also been finalised between Tata and the UK steel committee, who represent the three steel unions. Community and GMB unions balloted their members last week on the MOU, with the ballot closing at midday yesterday. Unite have not balloted their members. With the grant funding agreement and memorandum of understanding now being finalised, Tata Steel is now able to place equipment orders for the electric arc furnace and the ladle metallurgy furnaces, as well as commissioning other new assets. The current heavy-end assets, including blast furnace 4, will be closed by the end of this month, bringing to an end an era of steel making in the traditional way. But what is offered now is the security and hope for a different method of steel making that will be much more environmentally friendly. 

Tata Steel UK has arrangements in place to continue to serve its customers throughout the transition period and this will also protect steel plants at Llanwern, Shotton and Trostre. The company has undertaken public consultation exercises and is looking to apply for planning approvals by November of this year. If approved, construction work for the transition will begin around July 2025, and we expect the EAF to be operational within three years. Tata has stated that the change to electric arc steel making using UK generated scrap will reduce the UK’s industrial carbon emissions by 8 per cent and Port Talbot’s by 90 per cent. This will set a benchmark in terms of the circular economy, by responding to demands by industrial customers for green steel.

The Welsh Government will continue to play a central role on the Tata Steel transition board, working closely and collaboratively with our partners on the board to ensure that all those affected are provided with the right support. As well as helping individuals, their families, supply chain businesses and the communities, the transition board will also be looking into regenerative projects for the short, medium and long term to go some way towards reducing the impact of the job losses and to provide a positive future view for the region. Given the increasing reliance on domestic scrap steel as the main feedstock for the EAF, securing this supply should be a strategic priority for both the Welsh and UK Governments moving forward, providing both opportunities and challenges.

The announcement of the grant funding agreement and memorandum of understanding includes the negotiation phase of the Tata Steel UK proposal, and we will all now move into the implementation phase in readiness for greener steel making. Steel continues to be a vital material for now and the future globally. Construction, automotive, infrastructure, renewables, they all rely on steel. Steel will be at the centre of our net-zero transition, helping to support the development of new industries as well as supplying our current manufacturing base. Confirmation of the grant funding from the UK Government secures the future of steel making at Port Talbot and provides security for those industries that rely on it. Be assured, we will stand shoulder to shoulder with the UK Government in doing all we can to support workers, suppliers and the wider community as the industry transitions to provide a new future for steel production in Wales.

Thank you, First Minister, for the statement.

The future of Tata and steel making in Wales has rightly been a topic discussed in this Chamber on many occasions, especially over the last few months, and the closure of the final blast furnace, the plans for a new electric arc furnace, and the impact on the community of Port Talbot and its workforce who face redundancies. No-one should be gleeful about this deal when so many lives in Port Talbot will be impacted. People should acknowledge the binary choice that was available: see Port Talbot steelworks close completely, or support the company to move towards an electric arc furnace, preserving steel making in south Wales. That’s what the previous Conservative Government chose, and I’m pleased that the new Labour Government has honoured the commitments made by that Conservative Government in proceeding with the deal.

However, the way in which the Labour spin machine has gone into overdrive, you’d expect there to be several large differences within this deal, especially considering that the Secretary of State for Wales, whilst in her shadow role, derided the plan saying the Government forked out £500 million in taxpayers’ cash for the loss of 3,000 jobs. Labour politicians in this place and elsewhere said loudly to the people of Port Talbot to wait—'Wait until after an election and the formation of a UK Labour Government, wait and a better deal will be forthcoming.' I was chastised at the time for saying that false hope was being given to the people and the workforce at Port Talbot. I've been proved right, and I take no pleasure in that. Two months into the UK Labour Government's term, and two months of them realising that governing is very different to being in opposition.

The realities are the same. The £500 million deal remains a £500 million deal. The 2,800 redundancies remain 2,800 redundancies. The same grant funding will still go towards the same electric arc furnace announced by the UK Conservative Government almost a year ago. In reality, on the issues that truly matter to people, such as jobs and steel-making transition, there is no change. The deal struck by the former UK Conservative Government was in fact the best deal available. It appears that the only difference now is the colour of the rosette worn by the Secretary of State who is presenting the deal.

On to the levers of power that this Welsh Government has, why is it, Prif Weinidog, that this Welsh Labour Government has failed to provide a package of financial support? Were you waiting for Sir Keir Starmer and the supposed cavalry to come to the rescue to provide more money and a better deal? Because the reality is now very different. So, I urge this Welsh Government to do more to support the workforce and the wider community.

Let’s turn to the future, a future that the workforce, their families and the community of Port Talbot deserve. The Welsh Labour Government must ensure that valuable skills are not wasted and that our workforce, with its vast potential, does not go to waste. Just this week, new statistics revealed again that Wales is lagging behind nearly all other areas of the UK in terms of economic inactivity. Please, do not allow the workers of Port Talbot to become part of that statistic. To mitigate this as much as possible, both the UK and Welsh Labour Governments need to ensure that available funds are spent wisely and proactively.

In August £13.5 million was released by the transition board. Can the First Minister outline if that money has been spent, and if so, what metrics are being used to ensure that money is being spent wisely and is indeed helping with the wider impact of the transition from blast to electric arc furnace steel making?

And on steel, Tata, in their evidence to the Senedd’s economy committee, made reference to them being open to exploring direct reduced iron and a plate mill capable of producing steel suitable for wind turbines. The memorandum of understanding, the active commitment to develop future investment plans beyond the electric arc furnace that you mentioned, is nothing new, just confirming what Tata have told this Senedd already. So please, can both Governments just drop the spin? It does nothing to support those workers, that community in Port Talbot, who worry about their futures, because the hard work in ensuring this community and these workers aren't left behind starts now. Diolch, Llywydd.

Diolch yn fawr. It's not the ending that any of us wanted, although I think we have got to recognise that whilst we're looking at the end of a traditional era of steel making, a new chapter begins, and a new chapter that will mean that there is a future for steel in Wales, and we look forward to seeing details of the steel plan that the UK Government will bring forward in the spring. I think if the Labour Government had had more time, they may have had the opportunity to make different choices, but I think that the die had already been cast by the time the Labour Government was elected.

What I will say is that there is a much better redundancy deal that has been put on the table as a result of Labour Government negotiations, and it is true that around 2,000 people have accepted the redundancy payments. And what I can tell you also is that there has been significant Welsh Government support already. We've committed a total of about £25 million through ReAct, Communities for Work, personal learning account programmes. All of those are in place. And on top of that, wasn't it interesting to see the transition board had been talking and talking and talking and talking, and it wasn't until the Secretary of State for Wales—the new Secretary of State for Wales, the Labour Secretary of State for Wales—came in, and within a matter of weeks had allocated £13.5 million to support the people in that area? But you're quite right, we've got to be careful about not trying to score political points on a situation that is really difficult for the people in these communities. This is a very traumatic time for those communities. They've been through a very difficult ordeal, and it is important that we all stand by them at this very difficult time.

As a member of the transition board, I of course welcome the work of the board and that of the Secretary of State for Wales in focusing the board, and, to be fair, the urgency with which the Government acted over the summer to release some of the funding for retraining and reskilling. For many of us, when workers were considering strike action and Tata made the threat to pull out early, it sharpened minds around the table and emphasised the need to have that package available for workers who are potentially going to lose those jobs, and I think it's important to recognise the work of the transition board, the Secretary of State, and of course the previous economy Minister in his role in delivering that as well.

But there is a 'but' here. We should never have got to this point in the first place. No matter how the Government packages this statement, the truth remains: 10,000 jobs lost across south Wales, directly in Tata and across the supply chains, and the capacity to create primary steel a thing of the past. A 200-year history of primary steel production in Wales comes to an end this month. Let's call this what it is—the single biggest industrial policy failure since the closure of the mines. And in terms of what we need to green our economy, to protect our national security and to reach our net-zero ambitions, it may turn out to have been an even bigger misstep. And I'm afraid the responsibility is not only at the Tory party's door. It's also at the door of the Labour Party in Westminster over the previous decades.

Time and time again, I and others on these benches got to our feet to offer an alternative. Time and time again, we were told that this alternative would not be considered or explored because all we needed was a UK Labour Government. They had a plan—a £3 billion package for steel—but where is it? Where is that plan that you promised you had? As much as I might have disagreed with Labour on its approach to the future of the site at Port Talbot, I honestly held out some hope that a new Government might be able to get a different result. But that hasn't materialised. With all due respect, the deal that the UK Government has announced isn't much different from the previous one. Much of it was on the table under the previous Government, and critically, the people I speak to in and around Port Talbot are struggling to see the difference.

Now, of course there was a mention of the protection for 500 compulsory workers. That of course is welcome, but what of the support for the voluntary redundancies that were undertaken? There will have been those who left early to take advantage of the redundancy package, but are still now struggling to find work elsewhere. And, of course, much has been made about the future investment element of this deal. There aren't any cast-iron guarantees here. All we have on paper is a commitment from Tata to explore future investment and that's nothing new; it was always on the table. Sam Kurtz was right to point out that the Economy, Trade and Rural Affairs Committee could have told you that before the summer when Tata gave evidence to our inquiry. So, it does beg the question: was this the best we could get? I reject that notion entirely. I mean, the argument that was made that there was a need for more time—Government had the levers to pull to get more time and there was no request of Tata to cease its plans to move on the plan that it had on the table whilst negotiations were under way. Tata was still moving on its proposals whilst negotiations were happening.

And, of course, to rub salt in the wounds further, the Daily Mirror and most other news outlets reported this weekend that Tata could actually get a cosy bit of profit, around £74 million, through selling its carbon emissions permits, which are based on the previous two years of carbon output. Now, this of course is on top of £1 billion of subsidies over the last four years. Perhaps the First Minister can assure us today that steps are being taken to prevent that, because if they are allowed to do so, then what a kick in the teeth for our communities.

Now, this isn't a day for celebration nor is it a day to spin as a success; this is, to repeat, a dismal policy failure. The reality hasn't changed. We've allowed a resource and a capacity fundamental to our economy, our national security and our place in the world to be taken away by a multinational in an act of industrial sabotage. We're about to become the only G7 country unable to produce primary steel. We've opted to import cheap and dirty steel from elsewhere, produced to lower workplace standards and under more dangerous conditions for workers, facilitated by the preferential tariffs for imports via our new and so-called free ports. Now, it is, and always has been, workers that are at the heart of this. You will know, First Minister, how high emotions are running in Port Talbot as steelworkers oversee the shutdown of the furnaces they and their predecessors have spent their entire working lives feeding and drawing steel out of—steel that has been used to make things that we all rely on every day, from our fridges to our toasters, our cars and our trains, our schools and our hospitals. So, First Minister, would you agree with me today that an apology is owed to these workers, their families and their communities?

Thanks very much, and can I thank you for the work that you've been doing on the transition board, as well as other people who've contributed here, including Vaughan and Jeremy, on the work that they were doing with that? I don't think that anybody's celebrating here; that's the truth of it. This is a very difficult end of a chapter for something that is really meaningful and important to the people in that area.

I think it is important that people recognise that there is an urgency in terms of ensuring that people can get retrained, especially those people who are at risk of compulsory redundancy, and I know that there is now a new comprehensive training programme that is being paid for by Tata for around 500 of those employees who are at risk of compulsory redundancy. I know that the redundancy package is one of the most generous that Tata has ever offered, and part of that is the negotiation that's been happening.

And you're quite right, it is a failure of industrial policy. There hasn't been an industrial policy at the UK level for a long time and that's why I'm pleased to see that there will be at least a steel policy that will be coming out in the spring, so that we can navigate a way forward. There's a tiny glimmer of hope here, and that is that, actually, we will continue to make steel in Wales. We'll make it in a different way, we'll make it in a greener way, but there is recognition that things will have to change.

The fact is that, previously, the offer on redundancy was about 2.6 weeks of payment for every year. That's what the offer was. That's increased now to 2.8 weeks for every year that people had served. So, it's not an ungenerous offer to the people who work. But I recognise that this is a very, very difficult time for people and their families, but also to the supply chain; I think we must remember the impact on the supply chain. So, whilst Tata can make these generous offers to the people who work directly for them, we've got to remember those supply chains, which is why it was really useful to turn up with the Secretary of State for Wales in the summer to talk to some of those companies in the area that are looking for alternatives, that are able to work with the local authority on that new package of what this looks like in future. I was also very pleased to meet with the Secretary of State for Business and Trade on 10 September so that he could outline what this package looked like. I know he'd had previous conversations with other Ministers in the Welsh Government. So, that communication has been strong. It's not the ending we all hoped for, but I think it's probably the best offer that we could have negotiated.

First Minister, thank you for your statement, and can I thank you also for your commitment to the transition board and attending that soon after you were appointed and following on your predecessors' roles in this, ensuring that steel is important to the Welsh Government? Now, this is not a deal I wanted. It is not a deal steelworkers wanted, and it's not a deal that people in my communities hoped for.

It became clear that Tata had no intention, unfortunately, of actually changing their direction, because before the general election they hadn't ordered the raw materials that were needed to actually keep those blast furnaces going. We've seen the last ore ship come in during August; we saw the last coke ship come in during August. They didn't order anything. Their plan was to shut down at the end of September, no matter what, and that is really disappointing. I have sympathies with what Luke Fletcher has just said, because this is not an approach where Tata wanted to actually do a smooth, timely transition. They wanted to cut off and end up, and we don't know when we're going to have steel making back in Port Talbot. The talk is about three years, but there are a lot of questions arising. Will they get the energy in place? Will they get the construction in place? How long will things take? 'Will they actually ever build?' is still a question that comes through. So, we have some things ahead of us.

Now, you mentioned in your statement that there will be 500 compulsory job losses. Well, to me, 500 is 500 too many, and we need to look at how we can actually support those workers, their families and the communities, and also, as you highlighted, the thousands in the supply chain who will not get the same benefits as Tata steelworkers will get. So, we need to look at how we can support those people in the future, going ahead.

Looking to the future, I will ask three questions. The Secretary of State for Business and Trade, in his statement, indicated that 385 acres of land at Tata would become available for sale or transfer. But do you know, have you worked with the UK Government to work out, actually, who will do the remediation and who will pay for that to make sure the land is usable for bringing industry and investment in? Also, he mentioned the viability investigation into DRI, to look at whether that will work. Have you had discussions with the UK Ministers as to whether DRI will be something that they want to put into Port Talbot as part of the investment schemes? Finally, what discussions have you had with them about energy costs? Because one of the reasons we've highlighted for years on steel making is the high cost of energy in the UK, and yet we're going to an electric arc furnace, which is going to use a tremendous amount of energy and electricity. Have you had discussions about energy costs? Because, if we're looking at the future, we need to make sure this will work and will work for the communities, not just for steel making, but for the other industries and investments we want to bring into the town.

Thanks very much, Dai. Can I thank you also for the incredible work you've done in your community in trying to support the people who've been threatened with this situation over a number of years? You'll be aware that I met with the unions even before I became First Minister, because I recognised that this would be one of the most difficult issues that we would have to navigate in those early days. It is very sad to see that that blast furnace will close towards the end of this month.

I do think, though, that it's important that we look to the future and what the electric arc will look like. The fact is that there's already been a public consultation on specific activities related to the installation of the electric arc furnace, and I know that the company is working really closely with Neath Port Talbot council in trying to apply for planning approvals by November. So, you talked about the gap, and I think that's really important. There are people who are losing their jobs, but this other approach is not up and running and won't be for a while. But, just to give you a sense of the timing on that, engineering works have been completed. The company is now looking to place equipment orders for the electric arc furnace and related assets. The site work on the building is planned to start in July next year, with the electric arc furnace set to be operational in three years' time. I think it's probably worth noting also that Tata expects that the construction phase could create up to 500 new jobs, and so there may be opportunities for local workers and supply chain companies around that as well. And I know that part of what they’re offering is the retraining of people who work and there may be opportunities for us to match those.

So, on the remediation, this was an issue that I brought up directly with the Secretary of State and I think it is important that we understand and they understand the responsibility of owning an area of land like that and the legacy, the contamination legacy, that is with that. The last thing we want is to be left holding the baby—that’s happened way too often in Wales, and so that was an important issue to raise with the Secretary of State.

And on energy costs, of course, this is an issue for the UK Government. I know that Tata will have raised it very regularly. But, ideally, what we need is to make sure that we can have affordable green energy produced here in Wales, and that’s where linking this up with our ambitions around green energy, in particular offshore wind, is really important.

First Minister, as my colleague said, and as has been recognised across the Chamber, this deal announced today is identical, in every respect, to the deal that was announced by the Conservative Government last year. The Government will pay £500 million towards the cost of building a £1.2 billion arc furnace and, sadly, 2,800 jobs will be lost. The alternative would have been the closure of all Tata sites and the loss of an extra 5,000 jobs. The only thing that has changed in the last year is that Labour politicians condemned this deal last year and implied that they would make £3 billion available to save every job. And today, they’ve acknowledged that the deal put forward by the Conservative Government was the only deal and therefore the best deal available. You say we shouldn’t score political points today, and that’s all you did before you got elected to the UK Government and you tried to benefit from it electorally. So, therefore, would the First Minister like to use this opportunity to apologise to all those steelworkers who voted Labour in the belief that a Labour Government would save every job in the steel industry in Wales?

Well, the deal is not identical. The enhanced deal confirmed last week includes the fact that 100 jobs are going to be set into a furlough-type scheme that will be funded with additional money from Tata—that was not on the table before—a redundancy payment of 2.8 weeks for each year of service, which is more generous than the company was offering under the Conservatives; a commitment that no-one will be left behind, so those at risk of compulsory redundancy—and now we expect that to be no more than 500 jobs—will be able to access a training scheme for 12 months with one month's full pay and the remainder at 60 per cent, funded by the company; and of course more stringent grant conditions so that we know, if things aren’t delivered, moneys will be clawed back; and, on top of that, an active commitment to develop, over the next 12 months, future investment plans beyond the electric arc furnace at Tata sites in Wales. Those are all additional to what was put on the table before.

Those who'll be losing their jobs mostly live in the communities that I represent, and, despite your claims, Prif Weinidog, nothing has changed for the steelworkers and their families and we really do owe it to them to cut the spin. The fact is that the second and last remaining blast furnace is still scheduled to close at the end of this month; there’s no reduction in the number of job losses from the deal that the previous Tory UK Government made; and the same amount of money is coming from this new Government for the building of the new electric arc furnace. So, the fact is that the workforce and their families have been failed; a multinational company has been allowed to decide their future and Governments at both ends of the M4 have stood by. What guarantees are there, for those 500 jobs you mentioned that would be created in the construction of the new electric arc furnace, that they will go to local people, to local firms and contractors? And the blow that is dealt to the communities that I represent goes beyond the economic, it is also social, it is cultural and emotional, so how are you going to support those communities to deal with that?

Thanks very much. You're quite right that there are opportunities, I think, around those construction opportunities for the 500 people who perhaps are at risk of that compulsory redundancy. It was a question that came up in the transition board. It was a question that was asked, and, certainly, I think that there is an appetite within Tata itself to see if that might be possible. But, of course, they may not be readily trained for that, and that’s why what they are putting in place are training packages, so that they can take advantage of that.

On top of that, I think that, certainly in Welsh Government, we recognise that this is a really, really difficult time for the community in Port Talbot and surroundings, and that’s why we have put extensive mental health support in place to try and make sure that people know that support, and access to support, is available to them. I know that the Minister responsible met with the local community recently, and the health board, to make sure that that support was in place.

First Minister, thank you for this statement today, and, in particular, that the difficult deal agreed means that Tata Steel UK has some arrangements in place to continue to serve its customers throughout this hugely difficult transition period, and protecting, in particular, the steel plant at Llanwern in Gwent. Llanwern has always been an important local provider of good, solid employment opportunities for Islwyn residents, with many workers housed in Islwyn.

As was reported in the South Wales Argus today, Tata Steel broke the production records for the amount of steel produced on a weekly basis in August 2024. The steel industry, our steel industry, was, is and will remain vital to Wales and the United Kingdom. But primary steel-making ability is critical to UK security so that we don’t default to China or Russia supply.

First Minister, as the UK Labour Government do commit £2.5 billion to the national wealth fund for the steel sector, will you ensure that the Welsh Government submits strong representations to the UK Labour Government before they unveil their steel strategy next spring, and ensure that Wales remains at the forefront of the UK steel industry, protecting our national interest at the most basic and elementary level? Diolch.

Thanks very much, Rhianon. You're quite right to outline the fact that Labour has committed to a £2.5 billion national wealth fund. Of course, steel is going to feature incredibly importantly in that. I can assure you that we've already spoken to the Secretary of State about making sure that we're engaged in that very actively, and we will, of course, be working with them in relation to trying to develop that steel strategy, which will be looking to the future of steel making in Wales.

I think we've got—. I'd like to finish on a positive note, and that is that the fact is that we still have steel making in Wales. We now have green steel making, and it is important for us to look to the future, with the opportunities that that will give us. But the fact that we've managed to secure that future for the community of Port Talbot and around, not in the way that we'd hoped, but there is something there—. I think that it is important that we celebrate that particular success, but it’s not the success that we'd all hoped for.

Can I start by paying tribute to the former Secretary of State for Wales, David T.C. Davies, who I know was integral in constructing the deal—a deal so good, in fact, that this UK Labour Government has decided to replicate it? I hear the First Minister accusing the transition board—on which I sit with Luke Fletcher and David Rees and others—of talking and talking under his leadership. Let me just tell you what was actually happening during that time. An economic action plan was being constructed, commissioned and signed off by the Treasury, which allowed money to be released. As well as that, the exact nature of the job losses was not known for most of that time, due to the ongoing consultation. So, unless the First Minister is seriously suggesting that the transition board should have paid up money with no plan and to mythical workers—. I think that is for the birds, quite frankly.

Now, the people who are guilty of talking and talking, I think, are the Welsh Government, who promised and promised steel workers that an election would change absolutely everything, only for them to find out that the same amount of money has been paid, the blast furnaces are going to remain closed, and the same level of redundancies are also going to take place in Port Talbot. So, is it not the case that the best thing that this First Minister could do is start by apologising to workers in Port Talbot for leading them up the garden path with the promises they made before the election?

No, I'm not going to apologise for that. I do want to thank you, though, Tom, for your work on the transition board. I think it is an important group that needs to come together and make sure that they deliver for the people affected in Port Talbot. But the fact is that, yes, I appreciate that a plan was put in place, but not a penny was released during that time. And the fact is that, in Welsh Government, the money was being spent. We had personal learning accounts that were already helping people from Tata to retrain. We also had people working with Communities for Work, with ReAct, making sure that it wasn't just workers in Tata, but people in the supply chain as well, who were benefiting from that money. So, we in Welsh Government managed to release that funding, but you didn't, and what a shame. But the moment that we had a Labour Government, they came in and, within weeks, that money was released.

I'm really pleased that Neath Port Talbot Council is now working with Business Wales, and they're going to be playing a key role in terms of support for the delivery board, funding a supply chain flexible fund. So, all of that is being put in place, and there are opportunities, I hope, for people to take advantage of the money, not just that's going in from the UK Government, but also going in from the Welsh Government.

First Minister, as you know, Llanwern has a very proud history in terms of being part of the steel industry in Wales and the UK, but also it's a very significant economic player still, with those directly employed there, the contractors that work there, the suppliers to the plant, and also the spend it provides for the local economy. The workforce is relatively young and there are a number of apprentices. So, as we look to the transition to green steel and the future investment that you've mentioned hopefully will take place over the next 12 months in terms of the plans that will be generated, will you ensure, in the work of the transition board, which I'm very pleased you were able to attend, First Minister, and in general as the Welsh Government works with the trade unions, Tata and other partners, that Llanwern is very much a part of that green steel future for Wales, given its current role, the future that it can have and the role that it can play?

Thanks very much. Llanwern has played such an important role in the history of steel making in Wales, and it is important that we appreciate the impact of Llanwern on the local economy and the spend, as you say, in the local economy, and the very, very many people who are contractors. Let's not forget the contractors who work in these massive plants, because they are absolutely fundamental to the working of that economy and they will also be impacted.

I've been particularly concerned about young apprentices, particularly those who are halfway through their schemes, and I know that the Welsh Government's been working really closely on that to make sure that they can complete their apprenticeships and that they will fulfil their ambitions too in terms of apprenticeships.

I want to pay tribute to the trade unions as well, who have fought and fought and fought for the jobs in relation to steel in Wales. It is very difficult for them, I'm sure, to accept this, but they have been working incredibly hard to get the best deal possible. I know that Community union and GMB are currently balloting their members on the details of the memorandum of understanding, and I know that the ballots closed yesterday, on 16 September. So, we'll see what that's got to say. And I know that Unite the Union are not balloting their members on the MOU.

Finally, Lee Waters.

Diolch, Llywydd. First Minister, there's no disguising the fact that the closure of the blast furnace is a disaster for the Welsh economy and no package can compensate for that. It is a disaster. Those who engaged with the management of Tata in the UK have known for some time that the mind had been made up by the boardroom in India. It's regrettable that the position couldn't be changed by an incoming Labour Government, but it's quite clear that they were not for shifting. We've had some rewriting of history this afternoon in the Chamber by the Conservatives. It's quite clear that there was a serious attempt by Tata to engage the UK Government back when Kwasi Kwarteng was business Secretary, but Boris Johnson's chaotic prime ministership would not engage with it, Liz Truss and Rishi Sunak were not interested in it, and a decision was taken to withdraw. And there's nothing that's been able to be done since then to change their minds. So, shame on the Conservatives for trying to rewrite that history. This is their failure to take steel making seriously as a strategic economic sector.

We look forward to seeing the arc furnace constructed, but in the meantime there are so-called downstream businesses throughout Wales that rely on the feedstock that had been coming out of Port Talbot. Trostre in my own constituency relies on that material being supplied to them. I met with the UK chief exec of Tata and there are some concerns locally whether Trostre will get the supplies it needs in a timely manner to continue to meet its order book. So, when the Government is engaging with Tata on an ongoing basis around this package, can you please make sure the pressure is maintained to make sure they honour their commitments for the feedstock that's essential for keeping Trostre and other downstream businesses going?

Thanks very much, and you're quite right, Lee: we have got to remember those downstream businesses that are also a fundamental part of the fabric of our economy. We've been given assurances on the feedstocks, that they are absolutely committed to making sure that those feedstocks continue, so that those plants continue. So, we'll keep on asking those questions, but certainly the assurances we've had so far are that they are confident that those supply needs will be taken seriously. The company is putting £750 million towards a total investment of £1.25 billion for a very different vision, and I think it's important also for us to emphasise that a community relations and well-being workstream has been set up as a part of the Tata transition board, and that meets fortnightly to enable any themes to be discussed and acted upon appropriately.

I thank the First Minister. 

The next item, item 12, is a statement by the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Welsh Language on public sector pay. So, I call on the Cabinet Secretary, Mark Drakeford. 

Thank you very much, Llywydd. Last week, the First Minister announced that the Welsh Government had accepted the recommendations of the independent pay review bodies for 2024-25. She also announced that the Welsh Government would fund up to an average of a 5 per cent increase for the civil service and staff employed in arm’s-length bodies in Wales, subject to their own negotiations with trade unions. Taken together, this means that over 180,000 public sector workers, from hospital cleaners to teachers and civil servants, will receive an above-inflation pay award this year.

Public sector workers are the backbone of the services that we all rely on every day. After years of real-terms reductions in public sector pay due to the previous UK Government’s management of UK finances and a decade of austerity, these pay awards reflect the value that we and the public place on public services, and the vital work dedicated public sector workers undertake. The effective delivery of public services is a matter that concerns all Welsh citizens, and fairly rewarding workers is at the heart of ensuring that public services are able and equipped to deliver.

Llywydd, this Senedd passed the Welsh budget in March of this year. Members will recall that it reflected some very difficult choices, made in the face of the toughest financial pressures we have experienced since the start of devolution. When preparing that budget, assumptions were made that public sector pay would increase broadly in line with the Office for Budget Responsibility's forecasts for pay growth in the wider economy. However, these awards, the awards that have been announced for Wales, which range from 5 per cent to 6 per cent, are significantly higher than those forecasts and the level of funding it was possible to put aside in our original spending plans.

Now, following the Chancellor of the Exchequer’s statement at the end of July, the Welsh Government has worked through the summer to ensure the funding package is in place to support these pay awards. We have looked in detail at the independent pay review body reports and the implications for our spending plans, and my predecessor Rebecca Evans and the First Minister have worked closely with their counterparts in the UK Government. As a result of all that work, we are confident that we can fund these awards without the need to reduce spending in these or other public services.

Llywydd, taking each sector in turn, funding has been agreed to implement the following awards. Teachers will receive a 5.5 per cent pay award. This is higher than the 4.3 per cent recommended by the independent Welsh pay review body, reflecting the well-established principle of no detriment for Welsh teachers. We will also provide an additional £5 million to fund the recommendation that additional learning needs co-ordinators should be moved to the leadership pay range, reflecting the importance of their work to our ambitions for education. The education Secretary has invited written comments from key stakeholders by 7 October, and those comments will inform her final decision.

As the health Secretary over the summer, I set out further details for Members about pay awards for NHS staff, doctors and nurses. NHS staff on 'Agenda for Change' terms and conditions will receive a 5.5 per cent pay increase. NHS employed doctors and dentists will receive a 6 per cent pay award, with an additional £1,000 for junior doctors. For those salaried workers within the NHS, we will implement these backdated pay rises as swiftly as possible. For others, including contractor GPs and dentists, and their teams, the implementation of pay increases will form part of forthcoming contract negotiations, alongside other changes.

For staff working in a range of devolved organisations and in the Welsh Government civil service, we have agreed an envelope of an average 5 per cent increase to the total pay bill. Pay remit guidance for arm’s-length bodies has been updated and issued to reflect this decision. It's now for those employers to consider their individual pay settlements, and reach a final agreement with their trade unions.

There are other public sector workers whose pay is agreed separately to the pay review body process. Pay discussions for those working in local government, for example, are ongoing and this is, of course, a matter for them. We are, however, very aware of the financial pressures faced by local authorities, and will continue to discuss with them the extent to which we may be able to offer further support to them this year.

Llywydd, despite all of that, the current financial climate remains very challenging, and difficult decisions will once again shape next year’s budget. However, making this decision now, giving certainty to public sector employers and, crucially, those who work in our public services, means that increases will be reflected in pay packets as soon as possible, and before the end of this year at the latest. In the meantime, the Welsh Government remains committed to working closely through social partnership with our trade union colleagues as further discussions progress. And, of course, updates will be provided to Members once those further discussions are concluded.

Can I first of all congratulate you, Cabinet Secretary, on your new role, and I look forward to engaging with you constructively over the coming months? Thank you for your statement today. I want to say that I welcome a number of the increases to public pay. The rise in teachers' salaries may go some way to improving retention rates, as will the pay increase for our NHS staff. However, we must not lose sight of the major issues facing our NHS and education system. A simple pay rise will not make up for the incredibly stressful conditions that our NHS workers face, as waiting lists rise and our health service buckles. This pay rise will not improve the grades of our students, who are being left behind by failures of successive Welsh Governments. We need to ensure that more work is done to support our healthcare and education workforce across Wales, and not just through this pay rise, but through improving working conditions and addressing the systemic problems that Wales faces. 

Being in Government and the allocation of funding is about making difficult choices, as I know you know, and decisions reflect priorities. It's no good talking about priorities; priorities are reflected by action. Sadly, we have seen Labour's priorities thus far. I hope you agree with me, Cabinet Secretary, that the decision to axe winter fuel payments will be catastrophic for many of our more vulnerable pensioners, especially in Wales, considering the fact that we have such a high rate of pensioner poverty. However, decisions have consequences, and, as I mentioned earlier, they reflect the priorities of Government.

I do have my concerns surrounding the issue of public pay as a whole. We must be careful that both this Government and the one in Westminster do not lose control of public pay. The Labour Government in Westminster have offered almost £10,000 pay rises to train drivers, who are already on more than £60,000 a year, while taking much-needed fuel payments from our pensioners. I'm glad that you are confident that, unlike your colleagues in Westminster, you do not feel as if you have to cut services for this round of pay rises. That's welcome. However, as you indicate, there could be more public sector rises to come. With this in mind, Cabinet Secretary, what reassurances can you give the people of Wales that these future pay rises are not going to come at the expense of the most vulnerable people in society?

I thank Peter Fox for those questions and for the welcome that he gave to the announcements that have been made. I agree with him that properly rewarding people who do these very difficult and demanding jobs on behalf of the public will help us with some challenges that we have in retention. He's right that pay alone is not sufficient to repair the damage that's been done in our public services. Indeed, the independent pay review bodies themselves made a number of non-pay proposals in their recommendations. They are, for example, part of the consultation exercise that my colleague Lynne Neagle is undertaking, the non-pay proposals of the independent Welsh pay review body for teachers.

I hope that it will be possible to go on what will inevitably be a slow journey of restoring the worth of public sector pay to where it was before 14 years of erosion in public sector pay was undertaken while Conservatives were in office in Westminster. That will not be an easy process, but the fact that, within weeks of coming into office, the UK Government has been in a position to begin that business tells us, and people in Wales, that we value the work that our public sector workers do, we wish them to be properly rewarded. The announcements that we've made over the summer are an important start on that journey, but there will certainly be more to do.

I’d like to begin today by welcoming the Cabinet Secretary to his new role and expressing my thanks too to his predecessor, Rebecca Evans, for her willingness to meet and work together in the brief period when I was shadowing you, so thank you very much.

Our hard-working teachers and health service staff are an indispensable part of our society, and there is no doubt that they have been under huge strain over the past few years. It was heartbreaking to join them on picket lines and to hear directly from staff about the pressure that they are under and why the current situation is unsustainable. I'm sure that all of us understand why so many have left these professions, or are considering leaving. It's been a very difficult time for them. When you consider that foodbanks have had to be established in some of our hospitals, because of the cost-of-living crisis and the impact on staff, it's a very difficult situation, so we do have to welcome this news.

We must also recognise that the settlement doesn’t give an assurance to these employees regarding pay in coming years, or regarding the wider funding solutions required by the public sector. And as you note, of course, in the statement, local government staff are not part of this settlement. You refer to the need for further discussions with local government and the support potentially available to them. May I ask whether a process and a timetable have been decided for these discussions, and if not, will you commit to updating the Senedd on this work soon?

The fact that the Labour Government in Westminster is as committed, it would appear, to austerity as their Conservative predecessors is deeply concerning, and I would ask the Cabinet Secretary—. You mentioned now the commitment in terms of pay restoration to previous levels—something, of course, that we would agree with—but how achievable is that in the context of the economic agenda set out by Rachel Reeves, and what discussions will you be having with the UK Government to achieve that stated ambition? Because anything less than this would once again point to the empty promises made in terms of the benefits to Wales of having two Labour Governments at both ends of the M4.

Of course, although pay was a factor in the industrial action that we have seen, it is important that we also acknowledge that staff have also decided to take action because of their concerns about working conditions. That, of course, is related to the funding available for those additional things. So, while we welcome this long-awaited announcement on wages, it’s important that we today remember and recognise that this alone will not solve all of the problems facing the workforce, nor will it resolve the difficulties that face us in terms of recruiting and retaining staff. For example, we need to introduce more flexible working patterns in the NHS, and this will be vitally important in terms of efforts to solve the problems that are deeply rooted when it comes to staff retention. The Welsh Government has tended to support that in principle, but has failed to a great extent to deliver in practice.

There are limited opportunities for continuing professional development, which is also a bone of contention that arises time and time again for bodies such as the RCN, which has rightly noted how NHS nurses are at a disadvantage in this regard as compared to doctors. I would, therefore, urge the Welsh Government to look again at these wider issues with a renewed sense of purpose to ensure that the value we attribute to the work of our NHS staff and school teachers fully reflects their contribution to our nation’s well-being. May I ask you how you will work with your fellow Cabinet members to ensure that the wider financial challenges will also be solved?

Finally, I’d like to welcome the fact that this statement also mentions arm’s-length bodies, and that there is a commitment to fund an increase of up to 5 per cent—something, of course, that has not always happened. There have been discussions for several years now about the need to fund wage increases for these bodies centrally, rather than going from year to year, because if they don't receive this additional funding it's a cut in real terms. We've seen that with the national library and Amgueddfa Cymru in the past. May I ask whether it is your intention to take this work forward?

Thank you to Heledd Fychan for those comments and thank you to her for what she said in welcoming what we've announced. As I said to Peter Fox, we accept the fact that the statement doesn't resolve all of the problems that we have in our public workforce. But, on the other things she mentioned, we are dealing with those issues through the model of social partnership that we have in health, in education and so on and so forth. So, we already have mechanisms in place where we can come together with the trade unions and employers and work collaboratively on those broader issues, more broadly than just salaries.

Of course I want to see stability in the public sector here in Wales. It's clear that the new Government in Westminster will take time to prepare for the longer term. It's fair that they have the time to do that. I'm sure that that will feed in. We as a Government here have been reliant year upon year on single-year funding. Now, we will have an opportunity to have some sort of funding for the longer term, and that will assist us in the work that we do.

I am aware, of course, as I said in the statement, of the challenges facing our local authorities in coming to agreement with the unions in that area. At the end of the day, it is their responsibility. They are independent, they are independent democratic bodies, and it's important that we recognise that. But, as I said, we are aware of the financial situation facing them. I, as Cabinet Secretary for finance, do want to discuss these issues with them, and we already have things in the diary to facilitate that.

I'll just say at the close, Llywydd, two things. I'm very glad that we were able to make the same arrangements for arm’s-length bodies in Wales. I hope that will help them with the challenging budgets, which we know that they face too.

But behind what we have been able to do over the summer does lie a very different relationship between this Government and the new Government at Westminster. For year after year, I have been involved in dealing with the efforts of successive Conservative Governments to find ways of short-changing Wales when it came to public sector pay. If they could find a way of offering us a bit less than we should have had, they looked to do that. This time, with our new colleagues at Westminster, we have had the certainty from the beginning that they would treat Wales fairly, that if there was money being provided for pay in England, we would get our fair share of that, and we could rely on that happening. And I can tell you that that makes a huge difference when you're trying to set budgets and to offer certainty to our partners out there in the delivery of public services. That different relationship lies behind our ability to make the announcements that we've been able to make over the summer. I thank the Member for the welcome she provided to that, and give her an assurance that that wider picture that she painted is one well known to the Welsh Government, and we will find ways of doing our best with our partners to address those wider issues too.

Our public services are our building blocks of the economy and one of our biggest employers, putting money in the pockets of residents within every community of Wales, as well as providing the foundations of our society, keeping us healthy, educated, and safe. I welcome the uplift in public sector pay and that the money has come from the UK Government to fund it, unlike in previous years. However, when one sector does get an uplift and another doesn't, it does cause some discontent. So, without trying to distract from this positive news, what reassurance would you give to those that provide care in the social care and childcare sectors, which are two huge priorities of both Governments? Thank you.

I thank Carolyn Thomas for that, Llywydd. She echoed in her introductory remarks something that Heledd Fychan had said: public sector workers are to be found in every community in Wales. It was always the technique of the Conservative Party to somehow separate public sector workers from taxpayers. In fact, public sector workers are taxpayers every day of the year. They are people who have a joint interest in making sure that the economy succeeds and that they then get a fair share in that divided—the dividend of growth that the UK Government is committed to creating.

On social care workers, in setting the budget back in March we honoured our commitment to make sure that social care workers were paid the real living wage. We funded our local authorities to help them to do that, and I fully expect local authorities to honour that commitment. There are other groups of workers in the public sector who we know do not get the recognition, both in public esteem and in pay, for the value of the work that they do. Those people in the public sector workforce who work with children, some of our most troubled children, deserve to be rewarded properly for the work that they do. Despite the challenging times, as I've said in answers to others, the Government is committed to working with our colleagues in local government to see what help, if we can, we might be able to offer them when they reach the settlements for which they are responsible as part of our own responsible management of the funds available to the Welsh Government.

Welcome to this role, Mark. It's wonderful to see you undertaking this role.

I'd like to just ask a couple of follow-on questions, really, from what Carolyn was talking about and some of the things that Heledd touched upon. It's those third sector people, for example nurses in hospices, who benchmark against the public sector pay awards, so to be able to attract the employees and the nurses and the people that deliver these services in these roles. What work is being done to map the impact that public sector pay awards like these have on those third sector employers, and what is the Welsh Government going to do to help support those vital services that are performed by the third sector and the impact that these decisions have as a consequence of your decisions?

Well, thank you very much to the Chair of the Finance Committee. I look forward to appearing before the committee tomorrow morning, of course.

These are important points that Members are making. Today's statement is about public sector pay and the awards that we have been able to make directly to those people whose pay is governed by the independent oversight that the different boards bring to that. But of course we recognise that deals that are set in the direct public service have knock-on implications for the third sector. We have a range of ways in which we are able to navigate that. There is the third sector partnership council, which brings the whole of the third sector together, but then there are individual sectoral discussions. My colleague Jeremy Miles will I'm sure be hearing from and will want to engage with the hospice movement in Wales. So, where there are particular third sector providers of services on which the public relies, we're able to engage with them on that sectoral basis, while having the wider partnership arrangements that have stood us in good stead over the whole period of devolution and which continue to be a very lively and unique feature of the way in which we navigate those relationships in Wales.

I thank the Cabinet Secretary.

Item 13 is the statement by the Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Climate Change and Rural Affairs on cleaning up our rivers, lakes and seas. I call on the Deputy First Minister, Huw Irranca-Davies.

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. Over the summer, we've been working at pace to tackle pollution in our rivers, lakes and seas, including stepping up our joint efforts with the new UK Government.

I'm pleased to say that we are entering the Senedd's autumn term with a renewed spirit of cross-border co-operation.

And this is fitting, not least because our iconic rivers, like the Severn, the Dee and the Wye, of course, cross national borders. What happens upstream in England impacts downstream in Wales and vice versa. And so we must work together, and the renewed partnership we've seen since July is very welcome indeed, and very long overdue.

In doing this work we are building on what has already been achieved in Wales. Today three times as many rivers achieve a good ecological status in Wales, at 44 per cent, than in England. It's an 8 per cent improvement on the first classifications in 2009. Last year, indeed, 98 per cent of our designated bathing water sites met stringent water quality standards.

And we have funded a multi-year, multimillion pound programme led by NRW, addressing issues including contamination from former metal mine sites. This will go a long way to securing improved water quality in Wales for people and for nature today and for future generations. We have also led the way through our scheme to recycle end-of-life fishing gear, which has collected 10 tonnes of gear over two years. It is the only national scheme of its kind in the UK. So, we are moving in the right direction, but we also know we need to go further and faster.

With the reality of the climate crisis, the risk to our water sector is growing. The pressures on water supplies and on infrastructure are unprecedented, and the importance of building resilience to climate change simply cannot be overstated. It will take all of us—all of us—working together to not only address today’s challenges, but also to prepare us for those to come. So, whilst there is a lot done, there is also a lot left to do.

In that spirit of collaborative cross-border working, I have agreed that the UK Government’s new Water (Special Measures) Bill be extended to Wales. This legislation will strengthen the powers of the regulator and address water pollution. It will grant a new power for Ofwat to limit the bonuses paid to executives. It will allow NRW to recover costs from water companies for enforcement activities. It will reduce administration through automatic penalties for a defined list of offences. It will allow more effective enforcement options by enabling regulators to apply civil sanction penalties more quickly.

Now, the water sector in Wales, of course, is different from that in England and with Dŵr Cymru Welsh Water operating as a not-for-dividend. Any changes to the law must reflect Wales’s needs and we will always put the interests of the people of Wales first. But I’m pleased we’ve been working closely with the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs also in reviewing the future of the bathing water regulations to further strengthen the programmes on both sides of the border. The bathing water programme fosters a collaborative approach between Government and regulators, local authorities, and communities working together. This has empowered the regulators and the local authorities to take swift action to safeguard bathers’ health where needed, and I look forward to seeing the results for the 2024 season when they’re published later this year.

Our partnership working with the UK Government builds on other actions we have taken over the summer. In August I held the first meeting with Dr Susannah Bolton, the independent chair of the four-year review of the control of agricultural pollution regulations. The review is critically important, because the regulations are key to protecting water quality right across Wales, and the review is to determine if the regulations are fit for purpose or whether they should be modified to be more effective in preventing or reducing agricultural pollution. The review will be completed by the end of March 2025.

We also continue to support farmers to improve nutrient management and reduce their impact on water quality. We made £17 million available in grants over the summer, and in July I was pleased to co-chair the most recent river summit, alongside the then First Minister, bringing together partners to drive action and to find solutions to protect our water environment today and for future generations. As part of this collaborative approach, Welsh Government has funded nutrient management boards for six of our special areas of conservation rivers. They will produce deliverable, actionable nutrient management plans, and I’m looking forward to receiving the board’s plans by the end of this financial year.

I’ve been consistent, Dirprwy Lywydd, that partnership is the key to tackling such a complex issue as water quality. So, I welcome the recent report by the Future Generations Commissioner for Wales on how we can make the summits more effective and the fact that the commissioner has now made water quality a priority during his term.

There is no denying the difficult trade-off between keeping bills affordable, whilst maintaining resilient and ambitious water and wastewater services. Ofwat published its draft determinations in July, setting out the most ambitious investment package to date. Now, the process is ongoing but we’ve made our position very clear to Ofwat: water companies must meet their performance commitments and provide value for money by strengthening our water quality, maintain a resilient water supply and protect the environment. I welcome the dialogue with Ofwat so far, including through the Welsh Government’s collaborative PR24 forum with all key partners, and I look forward to a positive outcome for the final determination later this year.

We still have a long journey ahead of us to clean up our rivers, our lakes and our seas, but our targets are ambitious and our expectations are high. But we are firmly in motion towards the improvements that we need to make. 

I'm proud of the progress that we've already made in terms of improving water quality and I will continue to work closely with partners in Government and across the water sector to realise our shared goals of a greener and more prosperous Wales for us and for those who come after us. Thank you very much, Dirprwy Lywydd.

I thank the Minister for the statement, and we all know how statistics prove that many of our rivers in Wales are polluted and are well below an acceptable standard. According to the latest water framework directive—

Janet, can I ask you to stop for a second, because your screen seems to be covered? That's better. We can see you now; we couldn't see you, Janet. Do you want to start again?

Yes, thank you. Diolch. So, we all know that, sadly, and statistics prove, that many of our rivers in Wales are really needing much attention and that they are well below the standard that we expect. According to the last water framework directive report, currently only 44 per cent of rivers in Wales meet the criteria for good ecological status. Now, I welcomed the—I keep referring to him as 'deputy', but I tend to think of him now as the Minister for this area—Minister's statement that was excellent. Now, in 2023 a total of 115,523 discharges were counted in Wales with untreated sewage discharged for over a million hours through storm overflows. That is the equivalent of one storm overflow discharging sewage into our lakes, rivers and seas every hour of every day for 114 years. So, it's just not acceptable.

Now, we are facing an environmental crisis. In 2023 six of the UK's most polluted rivers were in Wales, largely due to ongoing sewage discharges by other companies, but also Dŵr Cymru. In that year alone, Dŵr Cymru reportedly released over 900,000 hours of sewage into our waterways, accounting for around 20 per cent of all discharge hours, not only across Wales, but England as well. Pollution is having a huge, devastating effect on our marine environment. Warnings were issued only this summer for people not to go swimming or in the sea due to poor water quality at 25 Welsh beaches.

In an effort to tackle river pollution, on 18 July 2022, the then First Minister convened the first summit to discuss phosphorus pollution of SAC rivers in Wales. So, I welcome that a river summit was held then, but could you outline, Minister, what solutions were pursued after that meeting?

You know my objection to the agricultural pollution regulations. I don't believe this is going to be fixed just by those, because that was a huge sledgehammer to crack a nut. I am further disappointed that Plaid Cymru, in co-operation with Welsh Labour Government on the rules, joined forces with that. So, will you clarify what the review undertaken by Dr Susannah Bolton will be and how it will affect the economic impact of the regulations on farmers, because, of course, with that legislation coming in, farmers are having to invest several thousands of pounds that they just don't have?

You will be aware that the Welsh Government has obligations under the Environment (Wales) Act 2016 and the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 to use natural solutions more effectively. Project Madoc is a comprehensive 12-month feasibility study funded by the European maritime and fisheries fund that assesses the economic viability, environmental impact and social acceptability of developing a sustainable and competitive industry for Wales, and how we can look at downstream processing of natural seaweeds. I've shared that report with you previously.

Now, I was very pleased to note on your statement about the new legislation applying to Wales and how Ofwat and NRW will be able to recover costs. But, Minister, you will also recall that I have asked numerous times—. If a company, for either land pollution, noise pollution or water pollution, if they’re fined, that money goes into the UK Treasury, and that’s always been used by the Welsh Government as an excuse, almost, that we don’t have the money to clean up our polluted rivers. What steps now, being as you have got a new Government, a new Labour Government, in the UK, will you be looking to address? If a company is fined £200,000, surely that should go into one of the environmental bodies—maybe to NRW or some environmental body—so that we can have that money spent in Wales. If the pollution has taken place in Wales, we should have that money here in Wales to help clean up afterwards. Diolch.

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Janet. You covered quite a range of issues there, and thank you for that, because it recognises the fact that this is a complex issue that needs quite a number of tools used to resolve it. Now, if I turn, first of all, to the matter of untreated sewage and discharges, you and I and all Members know that this has been a major issue within the public domain, not least driven as well by citizen science and groups out there who are so concerned about this, who bring it to our surgeries as well as to the floor of the Senedd here to be debated.

I mentioned in my opening statement the PR24 draft determination, and that, depending on the final outcome of that and, of course, our very clear view as well that we need to make sure that any final determination reflects as well the protection of those most vulnerable customers and water bill payers as well—. But it would be a step change, potentially, in the level of investment in tackling not only the combined sewer overflows and those old Victorian pipeworks and so on, but also in the wider treatment works as well throughout Wales, because we know that there is a legacy of underinvestment in some significant areas of treatment works, as well as CSOs. So, we look forward to that, but meanwhile, of course, between 2020 and 2025, Dŵr Cymru Welsh Water have already committed and are spending around £765 million to protect the environment and invest in this area, and it includes £101 million to upgrade their waste water management network. So, they’re not waiting for PR24; they’re getting on with it now. One of the approaches that I understand Dŵr Cymru are taking, which is quite distinctive, is not simply to look at the number of discharges, but those that are the most significant risk to the ecology of the rivers et cetera. So, they’re applying, as much as they can, the real science to this to say, ‘Where should we target that money first of all?’ and then work through it. But PR24 can have a significant impact.

Another aspect related to this is the support that we’re giving to the nutrient management boards. We’ve committed already over £1 million, a further £700,000 this financial year, even against the stretched backdrop that we have, because we recognise the importance of this. And, of course, we do need to reflect as well that, as I made clear in my opening statement, it isn’t only discharges and it isn’t only water treatment companies, it is also the building pressures that we see in managing those, hence our investment in the nutrient management boards to try and unlock some of the desire that we have for housing along some of these without impacting on the river water quality. But it is also what we do in terms of agricultural pollution as well. So, when we look at some of those special areas of conservation rivers, some of the most significant impacts—and it is solvable—are agricultural pollution, now, in which case, we do need that review of the agricultural pollution regulations to be taken through. And I’ve given a very clear—. In my discussions with the independent chair, I’ve very clearly said that it’s for that independent chair to go, within her remit, where she wants to go, with the support of experts, looking at what would be the best way to actually tackle diffuse agricultural pollution of different sorts as well.

Dirprwy Lywydd, there were many areas that Janet covered within her—. I probably dwelt for quite some time on answering some of those areas, but happy to continue engaging with you, Janet, on the other aspects.

Thank you to the Deputy First Minister for the statement. And it is a very important statement and a timely statement, indeed, because water is, of course, an essential resource for sustaining life. And we, in Wales, have a unique relationship that is inextricably linked with water. Many of our population live or work along the coastline. And our rivers, our lakes and our seas are at the heart of our economy and our way of life.

But, as has already been recognised, water has also been a source of tension. It, yes, has historical significance, if you go back to what happened in Tryweryn—injustice and exploitation—but also in terms of what happens today. The problems with the health of our rivers often make the headlines. It is vitally important that we scrutinise the Welsh Government’s approach to tackling water quality and question and challenge whether you, as a Government, are adequately addressing the increasing concerns.

Now, I appreciate and welcome the fact that this statement has come forward in the Senedd on the very first day back. I hope that that demonstrates that you truly want to tackle this issue—and, gosh, we do need to tackle this issue because almost one in five rivers in Wales has been contaminated by sewage. Again, we talk about this time and time again, but it turns one’s stomach, doesn’t it, when you think about it—sewage is in our rivers.

Dŵr Cymru, as has already been said, has been warned that it faces prosecution for its failure to deliver meaningful improvements. Yet the public continues to feel powerless in facing up to this issue, namely the sewage in our waterways. This is a persistent problem. It undermines, perhaps, public confidence in water companies and the Government’s regulatory framework. Local groups such as Save the River Usk in Monmouthshire, Angela Jones among them, they do excellent work, but it’s the Government’s job to do this. I want to praise the work that is being done, but the Government also needs to tackle these issues.

One of the most pressing questions is: what firm steps will the Welsh Government take to ensure that the water companies are held accountable for their failures? I see that this is something that we will need to work with Westminster Government on, but the public deserves more than mere promises of improvement. They need to see action and, if necessary, stiff penalties imposed on those companies that fail to reach adequate standards time and time again.

Turning to another issue, plastic pollution, particularly microplastics, complicates the challenge of cleaning up our rivers and our seas. Microplastics, which are now—. Well, you can find in them in every corner of our planet—the remotest corners, indeed. They pose a direct threat to people’s health. These particles have been found in human lungs, breast milk and blood. So, we must ask: what specific steps will be taken to improve monitoring and enforcement with regard to water companies when their practices contribute to plastic and microplastic pollution? And how do you intend to strengthen legislation to define and enforce safe levels of microplastic pollution in our waterways, to ensure that no more pollution is present?

There are long-term risks to biodiversity and to public health. Aquatic wildlife living in these areas is impacted. It impacts ecosystems, and in a dangerous way. These threats aren’t unique to wildlife, but have the potential to impact human populations too. So, can you confirm, please, what additional measures will be introduced within forthcoming legislation on environmental governance to tackle this issue too?

Finally, Dirprwy Lywydd, before I run out of time, a crucial point that we cannot ignore, I don’t think, is the need for Wales to have full control over its water resources. Plaid Cymru has consistently called for the devolution of these powers to Wales, to align the Senedd’s legislative competence with our nation’s geographical boundaries. So, will the Welsh Government make a formal request for the powers to enable this to happen? And can we expect future legislation to place drainage and wastewater management schemes on a statutory footing, thereby ensuring that water companies meet their obligations? Thank you very much.

Thank you, Delyth, and thank you for your welcome for today's statement too. There are many questions that you've posed there.

Thank you very much indeed. Let me try and rattle through some of those. First of all, I don't think the public are powerless, without a doubt, and, in fact, it's good to see reflected in the statement of priorities made by the First Minister today that nature and climate change are firmly in there. And this is part of that—part of the recovery and restoration of the ecology of our rivers, part of the drive forward on things like bathing water quality, as well as the ecological status, but also the link between the smallest tributary at the top of the Loughor river that flows down then through the estuary into the seas. That is all integral to our approach in Government—so, the whole aspect, including all the way out to what we do in the wider marine environment as well.

The public are definitely not powerless. We do listen to them. And I think, some of those campaigning groups out there, and lobby groups, I understand their frustration, and sometimes they aren't aware of the constraints that we work within and the speed that we work within Government, but we're absolutely committed. And, in fact, some of the work, for example, with the nutrient management boards, in trying to deal with phosphate pollution in rivers, but, in doing that, to create the headroom so that we can then actually build the social housing that we need as well in rural mid Wales and so on, there's been real progress on that, but we know we need to go further. So, the public are far from powerless, and they need to keep the heat on us, but also to work with us, because this is in all our hands. And that, by the way, also includes the way we deal with things such as microplastic pollution. We can legislate on areas of that, and we're proud to be doing that in Wales and leading the way in terms of dealing with things like single-use plastics and so on, but it's also for the public also to play their part and to come with us on this and say, 'We will not use certain types of things, but we'll also demand of the retailers that they go further, and we'll demand of Government they go further as well.' It's got be a joint effort. They're also not powerless because of what we're doing within the river summit process as well, and we're making sure that's well focused and well targeted and reflecting their priorities.

The powers on the water companies that you mentioned—I think it is right, where appropriate, that we actually look at the legislation coming out of the King's Speech and say, 'Is that useful for Wales now, or do we wait for another four or five years until we have the opportunity?' We're in the final 18 months of a Senedd term. We have a massive legislative programme in front of us already with some really important Bills, including the environmental governance Bill. And, by the way, in that, we're working through the—. It's progressing very well, but the details of which targets we actually put within that are crucial. We always said we would wait—my predecessor Julie James said that we'd wait—until the United Nations Conference of the Parties on biodiversity set the high-level UN goals, and then we'd focus down on what we'd brought through in the legislation, and make sure we weren't replicating things we're already doing. So, there's a bit of waiting and seeing on what those will be, but they'll be coming forward.

But, on the Bill that's coming forward from the UK Government, which I've indicated today we will collaborate on, we do think there is potential in that, because, even though we have a different model of water company here, particularly within our bigger water company in Wales, Dŵr Cymru Welsh Water, it is a different type of model, it is a different company, and we don't want to be penalising them, taking it off them, when they could be putting it into investment. But this Bill does, for example, grant those new powers to limit the bonuses paid to executives based on their performance. So, it does actually put in place things like fit-and-proper tests for those people who are heads of those companies. I think we're in a slightly different position here in Wales, I have to say, from some of the other companies in other parts of England, but I think those are instructive powers in taking them. The ability for NRW—. We know the stretch on NRW, but the ability for them to recover costs from water companies for enforcement, that, I think, is helpful. Actually reducing administration by having automatic penalties for a defined list of offences, and also things such as civil action penalties, which can be much more administratively quicker and decisive—all of those things, I think, are worth taking forward, and worth engaging with the UK Government on. But we've got to make sure that it fits for Wales, in our context, and we'll make sure we do that.

One final thing. You mentioned the aspect of the continuing focus on the devolution of water, and the commitments that have previously been made, and still stand, by the way, as well. Just to say, we committed to follow up on this work following the two Senedd debates back in 2023. Officials have begun the process of considering those next steps, including scoping out the full implications for other legislation. It is very complex. It will take time and dedicated work to resolve, and you can see where I'm going here, because one of the challenges at the moment is the legislative programme that we currently have, and the need to deliver that in a fairly short order of time. But it still remains. There is a commitment.

Just one thing to make clear, however: the chief pressure on our water in Wales isn't the transfer of resources beyond our borders, it's actually the stuff that's within Wales that we need to get on with as well. So, I hope that answers many of the questions that you laid, but we'll keep the discussions going.

I really welcome this opportunity to discuss river and sea pollution. It has previously been reported that nearly one in five rivers in Wales is polluted with sewage. This then goes into the sea. It does not disappear, which seems to be a view that water companies and others seem to take—that it's put in the sea, and it's all gone.

As with air, it's the particles you cannot see, such as E. coli, that are the most dangerous. Professor Jamie Woodward has created a report from his research into the alarming levels of microplastic pollution in UK rivers and calls for urgent action to protect them, as Delyth Jewell did a few moments ago. Tiny particles of plastic have been found everywhere, from the Mariana trench to the top of Everest. And now studies are finding microplastics are found in our bodies, which is a worry, I think, for all of us. The presence of microplastic hotspots in river beds is a clear indication of poor waste water management. Monitoring river beds for microplastic content could be an effective way to police water companies' practices. What action is the Welsh Government taking to monitor and reduce microplastic pollution in rivers?

Thank you very much, Mike. Both yourself and Delyth have raised this issue, and I think it might be helpful to write to both of you, and any other Members who are interested in this, with an update on what we're doing on microplastic monitoring.

Just to say, in terms of the point you raised on the amount of sewage going into rivers—and making the point again, pollution in the rivers is not all to do with water companies’ sewage, but in some rivers, it's more significant than others; every river is slightly different—there are things that we can do that are literally upstream of that as well. So, I attended an event only just down the road from here, which was a national conference on sustainable urban drainage systems, to avoid that overflow that goes off the roofs into our old Victorian system, the combined sewage system—so, reducing the load within that. It's good to see that people were coming from across the UK to look at what we were doing right here in Cardiff, and around Wales as well. So, we can do things like that as well.

And also, Mike, I think the price review really does provide the potential for a step change in the investment within our water companies and what they can do to tackle their part of the pollution within our rivers. But I reiterate the point: it's what we can all do, not just focusing on one area. We've got to do it all at once.

Thank you for your statement, Cabinet Secretary. I grew up fishing and swimming in the River Usk, and I want my children and others to be able to do so. My children do now, but it does make me wince a bit, knowing what's coming into our rivers, with visible sewage more and more prevalent, unfortunately. Like many in Monmouthshire and beyond, I'm very concerned at the levels of pollution, which in the Rivers Wye and Usk have suffered from a variety of sources, reducing wildlife and, of course, increasing the algae, which is very visible.

Last year, the UK Government recognised this problem and established a £35 million action plan to clean up the Wye on the English side. The money will be used to build poultry manure combustors and to support sustainable farming practices to keep nutrients in the soil, and therefore, I welcome what you said about what you've been doing in the summer. But many people would like to see further action, including a complete ban on combined sewage outflows—CSOs—which allow water companies to pump the sewage into the rivers. So, my question to you, Cabinet Secretary, is: are you prepared to allow Welsh Water to continue operating CSOs? If so, could you explain why you think this is necessary? Thank you.

Thank you very much. First of all, on the Usk river, that's one of our most important rivers. It is also one of the rivers where there are some of the most complex issues, and it's why taking a catchment approach to how we clean up our rivers is important, so that we have all the partners sitting around and saying how they can contribute to it. CSOs are part of this, but they're not the be-all and end-all, and they aren't, curiously, on the Usk; it's not the only contributory factor.

It is important that we deal with any pollution from CSOs, any pollution discharges—of course it is. If we were to literally say—if there was a way of doing it technically and practically, and whatever—'Stop discharging entirely through CSOs', we'd have some interesting repercussions for individual householders and businesses, because with the system that we have, the legacy of many decades, generations of underinvestment, those CSOs and the combined sewage outfalls are there ostensibly to deal with when there is high rainfall, the system is overloaded, rather than it going back up the system and flowing through into people's houses. So, turning them off simply on that basis, I know she wouldn't advocate that.

But I think it is right that if we have the investment coming forward—. And I've described the investment that Dŵr Cymru is already doing, and I know in my own area I've sat down with them and literally gone through—literally gone through—the painful task of outfall by outfall, which one is the worst, which one do we prioritise for the funding. And I'd recommend to any Senedd Member to do exactly the same, because they have the mapping, they have the data that shows which are the worst, and then to work back through them, so eventually we do get to that point where we have no discharges. But to do it overnight would have some unintended consequences.

It would also require spending that goes far beyond PR24. So, the PR24 is a step change in investment. We need to keep those bills affordable. If you wanted Dŵr Cymru or other companies throughout the UK to do this overnight, the level of investment might take us into realms of constituents coming to our doors, saying, 'We knew it was going to be expensive, we didn't realise it was going to be that expensive.' So, actually taking a proper risk-based phased approach to this, but to do it as rapidly as possible, commensurate with not breaking people's backs on unaffordable bills as well, because ultimately there's only one group of people who pay for this and it's us and our constituents in the water bills.

I am pleased, though, just to say, Dirprwy Lywydd, that one of the things that does come from the Dŵr Cymru dividend, if you like, of being a not-for-dividend model is that they focus far more than many other water companies on actually making sure that the additional protections they put for the most vulnerable customers are in place. And that's something we should laud and we should be proud of here. Thank you.

Deputy First Minister, in your former incarnation as the Chair of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee you often eloquently made the case for us not outsourcing legislation to Westminster, but legislating ourselves here. So, maybe you could explain in the first instance why you've failed to persuade yourself of that former case. [Laughter.] At the very least, will you also, alongside any legislative consent motion, bring forward a root-and-branch review of the entire governance model of the water industry, which is what the Secretary of State has said they will do in England, so that we can ask questions about the model we want? There are suggestions in England they're going to get rid of Ofwat. Professor Sir Dieter Helm is suggesting moving to a river catchment regulation body mechanism. Well, what model do we want in Wales? So, can we have that review?

There are some good things in the Bill. So, real-time data of emergency overflows plus automatic fines, but the two aren't currently linked. Isn't there a missed opportunity there? And can he please address the crucial point made by Janet Finch-Saunders? If we do have more severe fines and also more fines overall, surely that money shouldn't end up going to the Treasury in England, which is currently the case. That, actually, should be reinvested particularly in the enforcement regime of NRW, so that we can actually have the benefit of any improvement in regulation.

Adam, thank you very much, and you nicely teased me at the beginning of your contribution, which I might return to at the end. On the reform of any regulatory structure—and we notice, not least as we enter into party conference season, there's a fair bit of discussion around this as well—we'd be keen to be part of any discussions on that, particularly as it affects us here in Wales. Those are not, I have to say, high on our agenda right here now within this Senedd, within the 18 months, as we had the statement from the First Minister earlier on, focusing on delivery. It seems quite a major undertaking, but we would be keen to make sure that the focus of our regulatory system, on protecting the environment, but also protecting individuals, and making sure that we have affordable Bills and we have the level of investment, we'd clearly be keen to be part of any assessment of that and to reflect the different approach that has been taken here in Wales as well.

The fines to England point is an interesting one, because we've tended, in recent years, to very much focus on working together collaboratively in Wales and not necessarily to go down the line of hitting everybody over the head, hitting the water companies over the head, with fines that then do indeed head elsewhere. We've tended to sit people down, in the river summit approach, which my colleague to the right of me actually instigated when he was First Minister, and very successfully worked together with people, to say, 'How do we solve the problems?', as opposed to—. Fines have got their place, by the way. They absolutely do, and that's why we're collaborating now on the UK way forward, the UK legislation coming forward. But we think there is more to be gained, quite frankly, if we can get agreement from everybody that they all have to play their part and then everybody lifting together the water status.

But on your point of my unusual conversion to actually supporting us being involved in collaborating a piece of legislation, you must have been referring to my twin brother, I think. [Laughter.] No. But, quite seriously, I realise that there is an element here of poacher turned gamekeeper. But when I sit in this seat and I look at Bills that come through the King's Speech—. And there are issues with this, I agree with you, because on a point of principle, we would want to, from a Welsh Government perspective, I think, to say when we can do the legislation and we have the time and the space and the focus and the priority to do it, we do it here in Wales. There are a number of good reasons, which we exercised on the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee, as to why that's preferable.

But you know, sometimes, as well, when there are good Bills coming forward that will benefit us here in Wales, and we might not have the opportunity to do this for another four or five years or whatever, to come back to it, then I think it's the right thing to come in front of the Senedd and say, 'Here's my explanation of why I think this is right to do in this situation.' It won't always be the case, but I think when we do, we need to put it in front of the Senedd, for their support, for their agreement, and for discussion as well. But the measures I've described today, in the Bill that is coming forward, as long as they are proofed through that screen of, 'Let's make sure that they apply in the right way to Wales', then I think that's a good thing to be involved with and engaged with, and to take that opportunity, rather than wait for perhaps an opportunity that won't come again until another Senedd term. So, I realise I'm a bit of poacher turned gamekeeper on this, but, yes, I plead guilty to that.

The River Dee, in the area I represent, actually crosses the Welsh and English border and exemplifies exactly why it's so important that we need to work in partnership with the UK Government to improve water quality. As well as the reforms in the Water (Special Measures) Bill to improve the water sector, what more is the Welsh Government doing to address the causes of pollution at source?

Yes, indeed. Well, there are many measures we're taking: the massive investment we've put, for example, in the Teifi catchment. The Teifi catchment is a really good example of taking a multiplicity of approaches to tackle not only CSO pollution, but agricultural pollution, and also metal mine remediation as well. We have got some highly contaminated, quite venerable-aged mines within Wales that are still discharging into particular stretches of river, so we're investing in that as well.

But on the cross-border nature of engagement, this is critical, including in the Dee river. I know the Dee river well and I've canoed the Dee river—upside down in bits of it, unfortunately—but we only get to be able to tackle the Dee river properly if we're actually joining up the approaches across the whole catchment on both sides of the border, and with local authorities, and with landowners and partners. I'm really pleased that, beyond the legislation that I've described today, the engagement that we've had with UK Ministers discussing these very issues has been transformed from the lack of engagement that we previously had. We are literally talking to each other about how can we do more together to identify the sources of pollution, work together on it on a catchment basis, share our research, our expertise, our teams. We have an enormous amount of expertise here in Wales, but so do they in DEFRA colleagues as well. At an official level, some of that has indeed been pooled over recent years, but it's been constrained. Now, there is a feeling that we just need to have a step change in this. So, in the Dee, in some of our SACs like the Usk, in some of our cross-border rivers like the Severn and so on, we really need to be working together far more effectively.

You referred, Cabinet Secretary, in your statement to the review of agricultural pollution management regulations. Can you just confirm that the central focus of that review will be to look at the possibility of adopting new technologies to seek to deliver the aim that the regulations seek to deliver? We've often referred to the work of people like Gelli Aur and others in developing modern technologies in that area, and the possible use of friendly bacteria and probiotics to tackle some of these elements that have the potential to pollute before it becomes a problem. Doing that, of course, would then allow some of these regulations to move away from some of the more primitive methods that we have, such as calendar-based farming. 

I genuinely don't want to pre-empt—and I say this regularly—the work that's going on in terms of looking at agricultural pollution and the way to deal with that. I think it's right to say to the independent chair, 'Look at it, but look at the work that's currently been going on', and including some of the aspects of technological innovation as well, some of the very interesting innovations in apps that are not based on strict lines in calendars. I've been to see it myself; I went to Gelli Aur about a fortnight ago, on a good day, one of the rare good days that we had, and was out there literally in the field with those experts showing me the way in which that did very complex not simply above-ground monitoring, not simply the meteorological stuff, but actually down, deep under the ground, what the groundwater was like and so on, and they have real potential.

But rather than me pre-empt where we might get to on this, I think it's right that the independent chair looks at all the possibilities of regulation, but also, in the work that we're doing on the SFS as well, that we continue to explore what are the best ways in which we do farming that is not 'nature-friendly farming', but is farming that is friendly to nature by its very design—so, which way do we use technology in order to promote good soil quality, lack of run-off, as well as the investment that we're putting into slurry management as well. We're keeping an open mind on this, genuinely, but what we do need to focus on is how do we avoid—. Farmers often say to me, and they'll say it to you as well, 'We're tired of being cast as the villains of the piece', so we need to find the solutions so that they're not the villains of the piece, they're actually the solutions to the challenges that we have, but recognising at the same time that we have to deal with the issue.

We see some tremendous examples of good practice in farming. I've been out with colleagues of your own, in your party, and seen some of the very poor practice as well. It's not the fault, normally, of any individual farmer, but actually, using all the available tools, including technology if it's appropriate, provides some interesting thoughts on the way forward. But we've got to deal with the issue; we can't hide from it, as I keep resolutely saying. Because often in debates like this there's a tendency to focus on one thing or another—'It's the fault of water companies', or, 'It's the fault of house builders'. It's actually that all of us are contributing to it, including individual citizens of Wales, and we all need to find ways to resolve this together.

Finally, Joyce Watson.

I welcome your statement, Minister, and I know that we're all aware of climate change. In terms of the nutrient management board, they have to factor in the fact that we had the wettest winter, autumn and spring on record last year, and it will probably be the same again next year. And yet all our management is not really allowing for those situations going forward. I note that you're going to get a report in March, which seems a long way away, considering we were supposed to have reports, and then we haven't had them, and here we are again. What are you doing in the meantime? We can't wait until March to find out that this has all happened again, and that we're surprised by it. We can't be surprised by it any more. What's happening in the meantime beyond what you've outlined and beyond what you've already said at length today?

I don't think we can wait to take action on these issues, and we're genuinely not. The nutrient management boards—which you referred to, Joyce, quite rightly—when they were established, were designed to look at the load of phosphates in rivers and how that could be tackled, but also to create some headroom that we could also have economic growth, with building things like social housing. Because we found that the phosphate loads in rivers were so high in some, including our SAC rivers—our most important, and including parts of rural mid Wales—we simply couldn't allow, under the regulatory structure, housing development, when people were crying out for homes. That has actually already had benefits.

We have released hundreds upon hundreds of potential development of new homes and affordable homes and social housing. We now need them to be built. That's the thing, there's the challenge. So, we don't wait, we get on with the nutrient management board approach, and we release that headspace. We work on it right now. And my thanks to all those who are involved with the half a dozen nutrient management boards on those key rivers for the work they've done already. I'm hoping to shortly be going out to visit them and discuss with them what more they can do.

Similarly, on the river summits, that has not been a standstill process. Bringing those people together has already had dividends in terms of the commitments that they've made, the actions that they've taken on those rivers to improve those areas. The Dŵr Cymru investment plan, which I refer to at the moment, has been driven by that approach again—how does everybody contribute to resolving these issues. But I would say you're challenge is right, Joyce. Let's get on with it now, let's not wait for PR24, let's not wait for, simply, the end of the deliberations of the chair of the agricultural pollution regulations—let's get on with it now, but then let's also have the ambition that says we need to go further and faster.

The First Minister made it clear earlier on in her statement on priorities—in which nature and climate were very clearly included—that it's all now about delivery. Part of what we do in these mechanisms we've created, rightly, that bring everybody together and challenge them is now how much more can we do in the 12 months ahead, the 18 months ahead, but actually beyond the election as well. Because the task of clearing up our rivers is huge, but I have to say that what we did previously on things like bathing water quality shows what we can do if we have the will to do it. Collectively, we are willing to will the means to do it. Thank you, Joyce.

I thank the Cabinet Secretary.

Item 14 today is a statement by the Cabinet Secretary for Education on universal primary free school meals. I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Education, Lynne Neagle.

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. Wales can be proud of its record within the UK as a nation of firsts. We were the first to introduce free prescriptions, the first to enshrine the rights of children in our domestic law, the first to legislate to protect and secure the well-being of future generations. And now I am both pleased and proud to confirm that Wales is the first UK nation to offer free school meals to all primary pupils. This transformational intervention, which represents an important step towards the tackling of child poverty and hunger, is already making a real difference in schools and communities right across Wales. I've seen this difference first-hand: families with more money in their pockets, children socialising and eating together, with none of the stigma some used to feel at the offer of a free lunch, and none of the worry about whether they can afford that day's meal.

Children and parents are being encouraged to try new foods as part of redesigned menus and greater promotion of the importance of healthy eating. These are longer term impacts on our future generations, which are key to reducing inequalities and maximising health outcomes. It is not just about the food on the plate. I've also been impressed by a wide range of Welsh Government-funded projects making best use of Welsh and locally grown produce. Lessons learned from these approaches, in time, will better connect learners with the food that they eat, impact local supply chains, and support the Welsh economy. This builds on the momentum achieved to date, where we have seen collaborative public procurement approaches and the introduction of universal primary meals more than double local authority spend on Welsh food since 2021. 

Dirprwy Lywydd, I am pleased to confirm that this commitment has been delivered ahead of schedule. As of the start of term, 176,000 learners are newly eligible for a meal, and almost 30 million additional meals have been served since the launch—truly remarkable figures. Alongside our free and subsidised school milk scheme, and our commitment to maintain free breakfasts for primary pupils, Wales has the most generous school food offer across all UK nations. This is something we can all be rightly proud of.

But it hasn't been straightforward. Change on this scale never is. Today's statement follows more than two years of collaboration and collective effort across the education system, and beyond, in what can only be described as a 'team Wales' approach. To make this happen, we had to get the building blocks in place by delivering vital upgrades to school kitchens and dining infrastructure, investing more than £60 million capital funding. Suffice to say, none of this would have been possible without the determined efforts of our local authority partners, their contracted service providers, catering teams, and schools. All have worked tirelessly to make this transformational intervention a reality. I would like to place on the record my gratitude for their support. Thank you. I would also like to extend my thanks to Siân Gwenllian, who, as Plaid Cymru designated Member for the co-operation agreement, worked closely with the Welsh Government and Ministers to help ensure the success of this policy.

With the commitment now fully rolled out, our focus turns increasingly to how we embed the lessons from implementation and further improve delivery. We don't just want to be the first; we also want to be the best. We targeted universal provision in primary because of our understanding that child poverty is higher in families with younger children. So, as an initial priority, I want to understand the barriers that may be discouraging some learners from eating a school meal. Take-up of the offer sits at around 75 per cent nationally once levels of attendance are factored in, but there are parts of Wales where take-up varies, and the reasons why are not immediately apparent. I have committed to publishing this data so that conversations can take place locally, exploring what might be driving these differences.

Secondly, this offer will be evaluated, and evidence-based recommendations will be used to drive improvement. A contractor has been appointed and fieldwork begins in the autumn term. The voices of children and partners will be front and centre as this work is taken forward, providing insights to enhance delivery and explore emerging impacts. Thirdly, we will continue to explore how public procurement approaches can further increase local food production and distribution. Through these efforts, we aim to benefit local economies and better connect learners with the origins of the food they eat. The boost to demand provides huge opportunities to work with partners to increase the supply of Welsh food onto the school plate. We will, therefore, learn from the project activity under way and embed new ways of working.

Finally, as I set out earlier, we want the best school food offer in the UK. To deliver that, we must afford our current and future generations of learners the healthiest start we can offer them. We all share concerns about health inequalities experienced by children and the impact this has on health and well-being, now and into their futures. Poor diet is a contributing factor. School food can account for a third or more of a child’s weekday intake, and make a positive contribution towards ensuring a healthy balanced diet and good eating habits. We will therefore revise the healthy eating in schools regulations and guidance, reflecting on the latest available scientific recommendations and advice on nutrition and portion sizes. This work is already under way. A public consultation is being developed for spring 2025 and the revised regulations will be made and laid before the Senedd in January 2026, coming into force shortly after. As with the roll-out of universal primary free school meals, this will be a collaborative effort, and I look forward to listening to Members of the Senedd and the Welsh public as part of a continuing team Wales approach. Diolch.

Can I thank you, Cabinet Secretary, for your statement today? And I agree with some of the points you made, particularly where you mentioned about the impact a poor diet can have, not only on a young person’s well-being, but on their learning and their ability to learn and engage in the classroom as well, and that’s why I was disappointed to see some of the recommendations we saw in April from the children’s commissioner, the survey that she did with young people looking at the impact of the school meals they had and seeking views from young people on the school meals that they had. You mentioned, going forward, that the voices of children and younger people would be integral to how this policy develops going forward, and I hope that the work of the children’s commissioner will be a huge part of that, because what we learnt from the children’s commissioner is that as many as 80 per cent of young people said that they were still hungry after a school meal, and as you rightly identified, for many young people, this will be their primary meal. This might be the only meal they access in a day, and so it is worrying, I think, to me, that so, so many young people are leaving lunchtime in school, with a meal provided by the school, hungry at the end of it. We also saw in that survey that 44 per cent said that even if they were still hungry, they weren’t able to have seconds, even if they asked for it. So, how can we make the system a bit more flexible, not only in terms of the food that is available, but actually listening to learners, perhaps on a day-by-day basis, let alone the kind of overarching guidance that we will come on to? But on that point about portion sizes, because I think this is at the heart of all of this, and you mentioned it at the end of your statement there, Cabinet Secretary—.

Now, at present, it seems there is a clear difference, obviously in the guidance between primary and secondary schools, but not necessarily within those primary and secondary schools, and, obviously, a learner just starting their primary education is going to have very different needs to someone in year 6, for example, but that currently isn’t reflected in the guidance. You mentioned that that will be looked at, but I was a bit worried to see that that wouldn’t be looked at, or laid before the Senedd, I should say, until 2026, which is an awfully long time for young people in schools to be going hungry. So, what steps are you taking in the immediate future to look at that in more detail? Because, as I say, if that is their only meal, we cannot be content with that situation continuing.

A number of parents have also raised with me some of the quality of some of the meals that are being received across Wales. Now, obviously, in some instances, it’s going to be subjective, so it’s quite hard to paint this picture accurately, but I think you will be aware, probably, Cabinet Secretary, as well as I am, that parents and others mention the quality of some of the meals that they receive. That is no fault of the teaching staff, but sometimes it can be something that can differ on a day-to-day basis. So, how can we ensure that we’ve got a consistent quality of meal as well as the portion sizes that we’ve mentioned?

Now, we also learnt—. Some of the claims, I should say, that have been made about the universalism, if you like, of the free-school-meals policy, are around attendance, and I'm obviously worried that, if you're not coming into school, you won't be able to access that school meal in the first instance. So, without getting too far off topic, you see why attendance is actually important, not just to a child's academic career, but also their ability to eat altogether. So, how can we boost attendance, like I say, not just for academic purposes, but for these reasons as well? What lessons have you learned so far in terms of whether this policy is actually boosting attendance in our schools, because some of the academic research around it is mixed? Some academics I've seen argue that it does have that positive impact on attendance, others argue that it's minimal. I just wonder what assessment the Welsh Government has made of the impact of the free-school-meal roll-out so far.

And then finally, I just wanted to make the point about the take-up, which you mentioned in your statement was about 75 per cent. That is encouraging, but probably not where it should be, if I'm honest. So, we looked at why, some of the reasons, and maybe I've already discussed some of the reasons around quality, around portion sizes, but I was very interested in that geographical disparity that you mentioned as well, which probably tells you there's a kind of underlying story, somewhere along the line. You've committed to publishing the data. Can I understand the time frames you expect to publish that data by, but also whether there will be some kind of marketing campaign or some kind of campaign with young people, parents so that they can understand the policy, understand their entitlement and understand the value of a good school meal? Thank you.

Thank you very much, Tom, for that constructive response and series of questions, and you are absolutely right to highlight the importance of this, not just to children's attainment and learning, but for their health. Indeed, it's one less thing for parents to worry about, isn't it, if they're struggling with money? They don't have to worry about finding that money for them to go into school in the morning.

I'm absolutely committed to having the voices of children at the centre of any review that we do of this work, and I'm also really keen to involve the children's commissioner as well. Obviously, I'm very mindful of the work that she did and the findings that she made on portion sizes, and I don't want any child to be going hungry in school. Although we are going to be reviewing the portion sizes, I'd just like to assure the Senedd that the current guidance, currently, allows for additional portions of things like fruit and vegetables to be served beyond the minimum expectation, and also recommends that pupils can be offered extra bread et cetera to help satisfy larger appetites. We've also written to local authorities to remind them that they have the discretion to give children food. We don't want anyone to go without food because they can't afford it.

In terms of the quality of meals, the meals are currently subject to our healthy eating regulations, and they've been in force since 2013. Schools have to comply with those, but we know that many schools already go over and above these requirements as they're set out. Local authorities have a role to play in making sure that schools are complying with those, but part of the work that we're doing on reviewing the regulations will involve looking at the role that Estyn plays in their inspections in making sure that healthy food is available.

I hear your concerns about the timescales, and that, indeed, is something that I've queried myself as Cabinet Secretary. We want this to be done as quickly as possible, but we also want it to be done right. We've prioritised the implementation of what was a really big ask with this universal primary free-school-meal roll-out, and local authorities have been fully engaged with schools and other partners in delivering that, so that was a priority for us, and now we've moved on to reviewing the healthy eating regulations. But it is important that we do that in a way that takes account of—. We don't want any unintended consequences from changing the regulations too quickly, and I know that local authorities are quite concerned about that. So, a public consultation will be developed in April 2025 and then the revised regulations will be laid before the Senedd in January 2026. But we've already established three multi-agency task and finish groups to understand the current landscape and gather evidence. I've also agreed to a request from local authorities, in partnership with the Welsh Local Government Association, for a period of pre-consultation testing, because we don't want to be in a position where changes that we make as a result of this actually hinder the take-up of free school meals.

You're correct in what you said about the take-up. We'd originally aimed for a take-up of around 86 per cent; obviously, we're not there yet, but we already have a very proactive campaign called 'Get help with school costs', which we're using to promote the availability of universal free primary school meals and that work will continue. And in terms of publication of the data, at the moment, the data is what we would've collected on a management basis, so it hasn't undergone the kind of rigorous processes that data we would normally publish have, but we have now established a working group with local government to look at the issues around take-up, but also to look at what we can do to make sure that we've got the high-quality data that we need. It is complicated and when I've done school visits I've asked about it, but some children will have a free school meal every other day; they'll have it if there's something that they fancy on the menu. Some schools have got cashless catering systems—not all schools have. So, it is quite a big piece of work, but we are committed to getting that information and publishing it and also to working with local authorities through that new working group to make sure that we drive up take-up right across Wales.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary, for your statement. There's no doubt that free school meals in all of our primary schools are making a huge difference to the lives of thousands of children and helping families across Wales at a time when the cost-of-living crisis is having a very real impact.

Now, I welcome your statement, Cabinet Secretary, and was pleased to hear you praising the policy, which contradicts entirely, of course, with your previous stance as the Labour Party and as a Government in this place. We can't forget the fact that, at the end of the term of the fifth Senedd and the beginning of the sixth Senedd, Members of the Labour group and the Government voted against Plaid Cymru's calls for free school meals universally. And it's clear that you have a very short memory, because we saw pictures the week before last of you smiling happily with schoolchildren, praising the policy and welcoming it, but you can understand the disappointment that I felt that there was no recognition at all in these statements of the role of Plaid Cymru, through the co-operation agreement, which actually ensured that this policy became a reality. But at least in the statement you recognise that fact, and I welcome that, and the First Minister earlier acknowledged the role of Plaid Cymru in terms of ensuring that this policy is now being implemented in our primary schools.

So, due to Plaid Cymru's influence, we have been able to ensure that no child goes without food, and this was done through the co-operation agreement, as I've already explained. So, thanks to that, there are now more than 175,000 more pupils across Wales entitled to free school meals and almost 30 million meals have already been provided, which is quite extraordinary. So, this scheme directly contributes to reducing poverty and malnutrition, and ensures that all primary school children are treated equally, which is really important, and removes any stigma that was associated with receiving free school meals previously. So, just for the record, Cabinet Secretary, it is important that you will recognise that none of this would have been possible in any way without Plaid Cymru pushing the Government to act in this area.

We must also praise the way that this plan actually tackles a lack of nutrition and poverty, but we must ensure that it is implemented in the most extensive way possible. We’ve heard already that some 75 per cent of pupils take up this offer, and I was pleased to hear that you have plans in place to ensure that there is consistency across local authorities and plans to improve the take-up figure.

So, what’s important now, in looking forward, is that the next obvious step is for the Government to consider expanding the free school meals to the secondary sector for those who come from homes in receipt of universal credit. That is our call as Plaid Cymru here in the Senedd. We should look at being more ambitious in terms of ensuring that the future of our young people, and the future of our nation, is given due attention and that our young people are guarded from the impacts of poverty.

Expanding free school meals to all children in secondary schools under the conditions that I have already set out could ensure that thousands of children from low-income households wouldn’t go without a meal, which, to all intents and purposes, would alleviate the impacts of child poverty and attainment in schools.

To conclude, therefore, will the Welsh Labour Government be willing to accept that this is the obvious next step to take and that you are willing to pick up the phone to your colleagues in the Labour UK Government, insisting on fair funding from Westminster that would help to make all of that possible?

Thank you very much, Cefin, for your comments. Like you, I recognise the value of this initiative in terms of tackling poverty and helping with the cost-of-living crisis. I was very clear in my statement in acknowledging the role that our partnership with Plaid Cymru played in enabling us o deliver that, as was the First Minister today. I wasn’t asked in any media interviews about Plaid Cymru, but, had I been, I would have been very happy to confirm that as well in the interviews. There was an opportunity for us to come together as two parties that were concerned about this issue and to work together to deliver this, and I have been very appreciative of that, which is why I recorded my thanks to Siân during my statement.

In terms of expanding the eligibility of free school meals to secondary school, I think it is important to recognise that we have just this month hit the milestone of every single local authority delivering the primary school offer, which has been a really major undertaking. I think it's important, as I have said, that we get that right, that we get that consistently implemented everywhere, that we are making sure that children in primary schools have got access to a healthy offer.

Now, in terms of our commitment as a Government, we are using every lever that we have got to support families who need it. Our programme for government committed us to keeping the eligibility criteria for free school meals under review and extending entitlement as far as resources allowed, and at least to all primary age learners. As I said, our focus has been on delivering that primary school offer. The cost of extending to secondary school pupils at the moment is actually unaffordable. Initial estimates show an annual cost of, at the very least, £28 million, and that’s before capital and administration costs, and it also doesn’t account for the costs of expansion to further education institutions. Therefore, the real costs of expansion would be significantly higher. We do recognise that these are really challenging times for families, and we are committed to keeping that eligibility criteria under review in the longer term. We're also monitoring the potential impact of increases in the national living wage on the number of learners eligible for a free school meal via benefit-related criteria. So, at the moment, as you're very well aware, because you were involved in some of the discussions we had about the budget for this year, just how difficult this budget has been for the Welsh Government. The possibility of extending them is, at the moment, unaffordable, but we are keeping that under review. But we also want to make sure that we implement the primary offer in a consistent way as well.

This is something really to celebrate, what we've achieved here in Wales, so I'd like to congratulate the Welsh Government. I remember visiting a school a few years ago and the headteacher showed me a lunchbox, and in it were two biscuits, and I don't know whether it was fussiness or affordability. I remember, when I was at school, I had a formidable dinner lady who encouraged me to eat everything on the plate, and we had to, really. But it is an issue with children—fussiness. I was at the Fit, Fed and Read scheme in Flintshire during the summer, which is fantastic, and the children were choosing the sandwiches but leaving the fruit behind. I remember my kids being fussy, so I had a star chart, and if they ate something they didn't like, which the brother or sister did, they got a star, and eventually they got to taste different foods, got used to them and liked them. And then, when we talked earlier about the take-up, that made me think about all of this. So, I just want to know, is there a programme of gentle encouragement for children to try different foods, to educate them about healthy eating at the same time, to see if we can get them to try different foods at primary school level, so they get used to them? Thank you.

Thanks, Carolyn, and thank you for those observations. As you say, it can be that some children are naturally fussy eaters, and we want them to try different vegetables. I was very disappointed, when I was in Ysgol Cynwyd Sant, that none of the children were accepting my offer of the vegetables, although I did get one little girl who did agree to have cabbage, and I was like, 'Yay, this is brilliant.' As far as I can see, schools are doing that already; they're trying to encourage the children to eat healthily. That was certainly what I saw at Ysgol Cynwyd Sant—it was a primary school I visited in Barry recently—where the cook had been doing some really innovative things to get the children to try healthy choices, but it's also something that we can pick up in our review of the healthy eating in schools regulations as well.

And just to say, this is a cross-portfolio thing as well. My colleague Sarah Murphy has responsibility for the obesity agenda in Wales, and, when I had that role, we used to fund, every year, something called Eat Them To Defeat Them, which takes vegetables—. So, they go into schools and they do lessons around vegetables, because some children just aren't getting access to vegetables at home, and there's a reward system and, apparently, some kids are really gung-ho for their vegetables after doing that. So, I think it's also about taking a public health approach to these things as well.

And finally, Sioned Williams.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Universalism is the cornerstone of the free school meal policy, developed because of the co-operation agreement with Plaid Cymru, because it is ensures that no-one falls between the gaps. There's no cliff edge of eligibility, the stigma doesn't discourage those who have a right to support from getting that support, but we still have hungry children in our schools who are not receiving that support. One of the main factors in the education attainment gap is poverty, of course, and, according to recent research by the Bevan Foundation, Welsh Government policy restricts around 1,500 children in secondary schools from their right to an essential meal. And it often blocks access too to the school essentials grant, because eligibility is based on parents' immigration status, and this disproportionately affects children from black and ethnic minorities and results in discrimination. So, Cabinet Secretary, if you truly want to see that attainment gap close and end this discrimination, and ensure some of our poorest children do not go hungry, will you change this from being discretionary support, as is currently the case with providing free school meals to children from families with no recourse to public funds, to a clear entitlement, as is the case in England?

Thank you, Sioned, and, obviously, I've seen the Bevan Foundation research this week and, as I said, we are keeping this whole area of eligibility under review, based on the very severe financial pressures that we're facing as well. In terms of the families that you've referred to who aren't allowed to have recourse to public funds, my understanding is that we've already made it clear to local authorities that they can offer support to those families. I will, on the basis of what you've said, check that we are reiterating that message to local authorities. But I wouldn't expect to see any school that is standing by and seeing children go hungry, but I'm very happy to follow that up for you.

I thank the Cabinet Secretary. 

Before we conclude, I will now declare the result of the vote for electing the Chair of the Petitions Committee. A total of 54 votes were cast. Rhianon Passmore received 15 votes, and Carolyn Thomas received 39 votes. Therefore, Carolyn Thomas is elected Chair of the Petitions Committee. Many congratulations.

And that brings today's proceedings to a close.