Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru

Good afternoon and welcome to this Plenary meeting. The first item on our agenda this afternoon will be nominations for a committee Chair. I therefore invite nominations under Standing Order 17.2F for the election of the Chair of the Health and Social Care Committee, which has been allocated to the Conservative group. Are there any nominations for this position?

Llywydd, I nominate Peter Fox.

Are there any further nominations? There are no further nominations. Are there any objections to that nomination? There are none. Therefore, I can confirm that Peter Fox has just been chosen as the new Chair of the Health and Social Care Committee, and we wish him well with that important work.

Before we move to our first questions session, we have motions to elect Members to committees. I propose that the motions to elect Members to committees are grouped for debate and voting. Does any Member object? If there are no objections, I call on a member of the Business Committee to move the motion formally. Paul Davies.

Formally, Llywydd.

Does any Member object to these proposals? No. Therefore, those Members have been elected to the relevant committees.

The first item will be questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Transport and North Wales, and the first question is from Gareth Davies.

This year, we're planning to invest over £140 million to support the provision and improvement of local bus services and concessionary free bus travel for communities right across Wales. I also recently announced the introduction of a new discounted £1 flat youth fare scheme, which will launch in September.

Thanks very much, Cabinet Secretary. Bus usage in Wales is still well below where it needs to be. The latest figures show that we are only at 78.3 per cent of pre-pandemic passenger levels. That's significantly behind Scotland and England, where public transport use is bouncing back far more strongly. In fact, passenger growth has been poor for both trains and buses, Cabinet Secretary. I understand the idea behind franchising and, if done right, it could help address some of the problems in our bus network, but let's not pretend it's a silver bullet. Changing the structure of ownership won't solve poor services on their own. We need action now to get people back on the bus, not just after the franchising model kicks in. And we've already seen what works. In north Wales, the Sherpa service across Snowdon has actually grown passenger numbers since the pandemic, and they've done this through more frequent buses, increasing connectivity in rural areas, and eliminating the need for passengers to change buses at Llanberis, making the service more convenient and appealing. We don't want to see the new franchising model become another money pit for the Welsh taxpayer. We want to see passenger numbers increase and show long-term sustainability. So, can the Cabinet Secretary outline how the Welsh Government will learn from successful bus networks and prioritise connectivity and areas off the beaten track to meet the needs of communities across Wales? Thank you.

Well, can I thank the Member for his question? I had the privilege of riding a Sherpa service during the Easter break. It was a fantastic experience, I have to say, through some of the world's most glorious natural environments. And what it showed was that, where we're in control of the network, we are seeing increased passenger numbers. The TrawsCymru network has seen a huge increase in patronage and so too the stations that the TrawsCymru service operates to and from.

Now, the Member also raised the issue of passenger numbers on Transport for Wales rail services. Actually, we've seen a 19 per cent increase—a 19 per cent increase—in the past year alone in the number of people who are using Transport for Wales rail services. It's one of the largest increases in passenger numbers of any train operator in the UK. So, it demonstrates that, where we are in control, where we are able to shape the network in a way that meets passenger needs, we will drive passenger numbers up, and with it the farebox, which will make services even more sustainable. And the key point, really, with franchising is that we'll be designing a system that meets passenger needs and puts passengers ahead of profit.

On my list of what Wales does best, in Wales we have concessionary passes from 60 years of age, unlike over the border, where it's 67 years of age—the pensionable age. But, as was mentioned, passengers haven't returned post pandemic. We hear that trust is really important and reliability of service. So, do you believe that the Bus Services (Wales) Bill, along with branding, building that trust, reliability and integrated ticketing, will help grow the brand and give people confidence to come back? At the cross-party group, we have over 30 different organisations attend that meeting, which is really valuable. We have operators, unions, the older person's commissioner. So, I feel, and do you feel, that it's incumbent on all of us to actually promote bus transport and travel, and not just leave it all to the Welsh Government? I just believe it's something that we should all try and do. I use the bus regularly and try and promote it, but it's something for all of us. Thank you.

Thank you. I know that Carolyn Thomas is a great advocate for public transport, and specifically for better buses. The Bill is aimed at making sure that we can create a network that meets passengers' needs, that encourages people to travel on buses, to use integrated transport—because the network will be integrated with the rail network. But I think you make a really important point that reliability is key. That's the No. 1 factor that determines whether or not people use buses. We'll be able to design a network, we'll be able to invest in infrastructure that increases levels of patronage, because we're going to make it more reliable. We're going to meet the needs of communities across Wales. It's a hugely important piece of legislation, but it's hugely important because around 100,000,000 passenger journeys took place pre COVID. We want to see that figure restored and improved upon, moving forward. COVID, there is no doubt, impacted on behaviours, and what we've seen with passenger numbers is that concessionary fare passengers have not returned to using buses in the same way that fare-paying passengers have done. So, behaviours have changed—we accept that. What we want to make sure that we do in the future is, whether it's a concessionary fare passenger or a fare-paying passenger, we will see an increase in both.

Yes, of course. I can confirm that newly refurbished trains are operating on the Heart of Wales line, providing additional capacity for local communities and the key tourist market. A new fifth service is planned for December 2025, and the service is planned to be better in the way that it responds to passenger demand, and we will ensure that it will improve upon the removed service.

Well, I'm glad to hear it will better respond to passenger demands, because, as of December 2024, the final train service from Swansea to Llandrindod departs at 17:48, leaving many rural constituents unable to return home in the evening to places like Ammanford, Llandeilo and Llandovery. Now, Swansea is Wales's second largest city—a hub for employment, education, healthcare and culture. Yet, for many in rural communities, this timetable fails to accommodate standard working hours, evening events, or commitments like medical appointments or family obligations. Now, the problem also extends to weekends and major events—times when public transport is needed most. So, with no late alternatives or adequate connections, rural communities once again are being left behind. And, worst still, when Plaid Cymru called for Wales to receive its fair share of high speed 2 funding, which could have supported infrastructures like this, you and your Labour Members of the Senedd voted it down. So, my question to you, Secretary, is this: what steps is Transport for Wales taking to assess and improve this timetable, to create a transport system that truly connects all of Wales, and will rural communities, like those along the Heart of Wales line, continue to be neglected?

Well, first of all, I've been assured by TfW that the timetable changes will lead to improved reliability and punctuality of services on the line. That's hugely important, as I've just mentioned, in driving patronage up. If we can drive patronage up, then we drive the farebox up—we ensure that the service is sustainable for the future. On the point of HS2, this is a well-rehearsed debate, but let's just await the comprehensive spending review, because we have put together our ask for rail investment, which is substantial indeed, and we have a shared vision with the Department for Transport over what infrastructure needs to be improved in Wales.

Now, the Member also makes an important point about the 17:48 service. Obviously, TfW consider local representation when they begin the work on future potential timetable changes, and I’ll ensure that TfW hear what the Member has said today and consider whether or not a later train is required to serve passenger needs.

Cabinet Secretary, the Heart of Wales line, as we all are aware, is a jewel in the crown for our tourism offer in many ways, with many people coming to see Wales and using it. Now, works are set, I believe, to begin in May on the line, which will see it close in part, with rail replacement buses set to replace trains between Carmarthen and Swansea to Llandrindod. We have just seen the end of the off-peak season for the line, which allows concessionary travel pass holders to use the line for free between October and March. I was, therefore, wondering why these works were not planned to coincide with the quieter off-peak period, where, perhaps, income from the line would be lower anyway. Instead, they are due to begin in the peak of spring, when the weather and temperatures are improving, and tourists who want to use the line might find themselves unable to do so as planned. I would just welcome your response and reasoning for that time frame for that work to take place.

Well, can I assure the Member that I’ll raise this with Transport for Wales? As it’s an operational matter, I think they’re best placed to explain the reasoning behind the scheduling of these works. They are very necessary works, but the Member is absolutely right that this is a jewel in the crown. It’s a fabulous route, and we’re increasing capacity on the Heart of Wales line services, with more seats and more dedicated bike spaces as well, and I think that will be noticed by people who use it.

Questions now from the party spokespeople. The Welsh Conservative spokesperson, Laura Anne Jones. 

Diolch. Good afternoon, Cabinet Secretary. I’d like to ask you a few questions, if I may, on our shared brief—mine, of course, being shadow—on the armed forces and veterans. As a former armed forces champion for Monmouthshire County Council, I was pleased to see them reach gold standard whilst I was there, and what it means is that rather than thinking of the armed forces and veterans as an afterthought when developing policy, it encourages decision makers to prioritise them when developing policy from the get-go. The results have been very evident across Wales and hugely beneficial to local authorities across Wales, and, thus, the public and veterans. However, may I just ask you and the Welsh Government to work closely with local authorities to ensure that the specific needs of female veterans, often overlooked in wider veteran services, are embedded in the design and delivery of future armed forces covenant commitments across Wales? Diolch.

Yes, absolutely. Can I thank Laura Anne Jones for her question? I would agree entirely that armed forces champions make a huge, huge difference, especially those who are most proactive. In my area, we have Councillor Beverley Parry-Jones, and also, just across the border in Flintshire, we’ve got Councillor David Evans, both of whom are really passionate about supporting veterans, and are quite incredible individuals in promoting the armed forces.

Now, the Member raises a very important point about female veterans and the need to ensure that the needs of female veterans are prioritised. This is something that we’re going to be raising at the next armed forces expert panel. It’s a panel that will consider specifically well-being and mental health, and it will be attended by the Minister responsible for mental health, and I know that she shares our interest in ensuring that female veterans are prioritised.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. That’s really encouraging to hear. Following on from that, I’d like to start by thanking my colleague and leader, Darren Millar, for sponsoring a very informative event at the Pierhead this morning, celebrating 15 years of Veterans' NHS Wales. It is such an important service and the first point of contact for veterans of our armed forces who are suspected of having mental health problems related to their service career, such as post-traumatic stress disorder. My leader, Darren, said earlier today that there are veterans who are alive today who might not be here if it wasn’t for the Veterans' NHS Wales service. The service offers therapy, psychological assessments and, in some health boards, peer mentoring, and every £1 invested in this service is saving our NHS £7 down the road. The service has come a long way and investment has increased over time, which is welcome, but with the eightieth anniversary of VE Day approaching, sadly, too many veterans are waiting too long, with demand outstripping supply. So, Cabinet Secretary, what are you doing with this service to ensure that there is the resource there to meet that demand, so that our veterans can get that support? Also, how are you ensuring proper awareness of the specific NHS service that is Veterans' NHS Wales amongst veterans, of course, but, most importantly, amongst GPs, as that has been shown to be a barrier to veterans starting the therapy they need with the right services applicable to them? Diolch.

At the last armed forces expert group that I attended, we actually discussed that very important point of consistency across Wales. I've asked that, whether it be in the health service or within local authorities, we have consistent and high standards of support for veterans.

The Member raises another really important question, and that's about female peer-group mentors. Now, it's local health boards that are responsible for staffing and resource decisions, and that includes of course appointing peer mentors, but we've asked health boards to ensure that their services for veterans meet local need, and we've requested details of how they're meeting the legal requirements of the armed forces covenant.

But, if I may, could I also put on record my appreciation of all that Veterans' NHS Wales has done to support our veterans, and congratulate them on their milestone today?

Cabinet Secretary, can I just hammer home that last point as well, creating that awareness across Wales of the service, to veterans and to GPs?

But, council tax, as you know, as this whole Senedd knows, has risen by 7 per cent on average this year in Wales, eating away at the finances of working people. And many people, including and especially veterans, who are already battling with the transition back into civilian life, and perhaps even PTSD or injury, are then struggling to find a house, keep up with ever-increasing bills, find a job, and are unsure of where to go for support. According to the Trussell Trust, veterans are twice as likely as civilians to run out of food. The statistics show the shocking reality of veterans living in Wales today, but this shouldn't be the case of veterans coming home from war to live in poverty. My question to you, Cabinet Secretary, is: do you agree with the Welsh Conservatives that a veterans council tax discount would be a good idea to try and ease that burden for those who have been putting their lives on the line for us? Diolch.

Can I thank the Member for her question today? Another important question about the well-being of veterans. I believe that armed forces liaison officers play a huge role in promoting the services that are available to veterans. And of course, we now have a dedicated budget line within Welsh Government for armed forces, including an increased sum to support AFLOs across Wales.

Now, in terms of additional support that may be available to veterans, I recently met with the veterans Minister, Al Carns, who is quite a remarkable person himself—I believe he's the most decorated Member of Parliament in recent memory. He's actually going to be climbing for charity, for a veterans charity, Mount Everest in the next couple of months. I wish him very well. He is absolutely determined that we all, across Great Britain, support our veterans as much as possible, and that we explore all avenues to ensure that no veteran is left homeless, that no veteran is left hungry, that no veteran is suffering with mental health. That's why it's so important that we work collectively in strengthening the covenant and making sure that services respond to the needs of veterans.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Peredur Owen Griffiths.

Diolch, Llywydd. We in Plaid Cymru welcome the recent announcement on making public transport more affordable for young people, but we think it should go further. With that in mind, will the Cabinet Secretary explain why the Welsh Government's £1 bus fare pilot for 16 to 21-year-olds excludes the 11 to 15 age group, leaving younger teenagers across Wales paying more to travel than their older peers for exactly the same journeys?

Can I thank the Member for his question, and first of all say that negotiations are ongoing regarding young people aged between five and 15, negotiations with the industry itself? Of course, as we move forward with the bus Bill, once it's enacted, we'll be able to implement our own fair fare regime across Wales, including a fare regime for young people that drives up passenger numbers. But in terms of the provision for those who are under 15 years old, we are still in negotiations with the industry to make sure that the young people who don't benefit from our £1 flat fare don't have to pay more. Because it's absolutely vital that we introduce people at the earliest age to bus services, so that they develop that sort of behaviour that then drives a life of change in terms of modal shift.

So, it wasn't deliberate. Was it an oversight, or is it something that's ongoing, as you're doing that? Given that many 11 to 15-year-olds rely on public transport to get to school, will the Cabinet Secretary confirm whether you're considering now allowing this age group to access that flat fare rate, particularly on school travel? Or are you happy for the scheme to continue in September with the unfair gap? Or do you think it will be in place in time for that to happen?

Well, first of all, the £1 flat fare or the £1 cap is designed not just for learner travel, but to support all young people in all of their bus movements. We’ve got the learner travel summit a week on Friday, where we’re going to be discussing how we can in the short, medium and long term better provide for home-to-school transport. But in terms of this year’s project to introduce the £1 fare cap, negotiations are ongoing with operators to make sure that the entire fare regime, from one through to 21, is fair, proportionate and does not leave any group of young people out of benefiting from the Welsh Government’s arrangement with the Welsh Liberal Democrats.

From that point then, am I right in saying that you’re hoping to get that in place for September? So, that’s good for those young people. This pilot, in a way then, misses the gaps for some of those children, and you might be addressing that now, from your answers there, an area where the Welsh Government has been letting people down, the most vulnerable young people across Wales down.

The Welsh Government’s own review in 2022 on issues with learner travel said nothing wasn’t an option, yet we’re still here and we’re still talking about this. Despite the promises to act, there’s been no meaningful change in mileage thresholds nor a full legislative review, and even minor updates to guidance haven’t been reached yet. So, could you tell us where you’re at with all of this? I know we’ve got the learner travel summit in a couple of weeks’ time, but when are we going to see some of this actually coming to fruition?

I think it's really important we hold that summit and explore all avenues before we make decisions. This will be the first time, actually, that we have brought together all key stakeholders, partners, delivery organisations, to discuss what is a very, very complicated system.

If I can just go back to the fare cap, ideally, bus operators will at least contribute to reducing the cost of fares for under-16s, but this is yet to be confirmed and that’s why the negotiations are ongoing. But we intend to bring those negotiations to a satisfactory conclusion as soon as possible, and certainly in time for the scheme’s introduction. I would reject the accusation that we’re letting young people down; absolutely the opposite. Plaid Cymru could have voted for the budget that included this £1 fare cap, but voted it down, tried to vote it down. So, actually, we are benefiting more than 200,000 people—more than 200,000 people—with a scheme that is fair. Plaid Cymru could have voted for it, had every opportunity to do so, but chose not to.

Officials are in regular contact with the Driver and Vehicle Standards Agency, who are responsible for driving tests in Wales. The UK Government has instructed the DVSA to intensify its efforts to improve access and reduce waiting times for driving tests to seven weeks by the summer of next year. 

Well, I wish that that was the case, because we all know that there are huge capacity issues in terms of available bookings for driving tests, particularly in my region of North Wales. It's commonplace now for applicants to be waiting six, seven, eight months for an available test, despite the DVSA saying that they aim to cap waiting times at six months. So, it's wholly unacceptable as it stands.

In fact, the whole booking system is operated, to all extents and purposes, by third party app companies. Applicants have no chance of obtaining a test in good time, unless they subscribe to these cancellation apps, and available dates are snapped up by app bots and sold on at inflated prices. In fact, you could say that the whole system is basically run by ticket touts. And the issues facing applicants who wish to do their test through the medium of Welsh are even worse, where they have even longer times to wait, and subsequently, of course, give up their effort to try and sit their test in their preferred language.

So, the system has been broken for a long time, and my plea to you, really, Cabinet Secretary, is to promise the thousands of people across my region who are to endure many, many months waiting for their test that you will do everything you can to put pressure on the UK Government to sort this failing system out. I saw the statement that they made a while ago actually, that they were going to address this, but frankly we're still waiting.

Well, I very much welcome what Heidi Alexander, the Secretary of State for Transport, has outlined. She intends to clear the backlog by next summer, providing at least 10,000 extra driving tests every month to help tackle the problem. The Government will double training capacity, so that more driving examiners will be available, and, in addition, they'll increase the number of driving examiners. But the Member makes a really important point about the test-booking bots and how the system is being played for profit. The UK Government, I'm pleased to say, has plans to crack down on the use of bots and the reselling of slots, which, as the Member says, is disadvantaging people right across Wales and beyond.

In terms of some of the centres, though, in Wales, two of the centres with the shortest waiting times for tests in March were actually in Wales, and they were in north Wales. They were in Bala and Bangor. Bala is a one-week wait, and then Bangor, it's apparently three weeks. [Interruption.] Well, I'll write to the Member with more details. And then just over the border in Oswestry, another one with a three-week average wait as well. Now, I will write to the Members with details of the centres with the shortest waits, but that's what I've been assured is the case. Obviously, Members who know their areas very well are contending this, so I think it's important that we have a clear picture.

Now, we're working with the UK Government, obviously, on assessing the beneficial impact of the various measures that they're making, but I have every confidence in what has been outlined by Heidi Alexander.

It's now nearly eight months since the North Wales Approved Driving Instructors Association, NWADIA, first copied north Wales MSs on their correspondence to the Driver and Vehicle Standards Agency, DVSA, noting that the reduction in waiting lists for candidates of seven weeks you referred to had yet to be achieved. Eight months ago.

Responding, the DVSA noted that August waiting times last year in the region ranged from 10.5 weeks in Wrexham to 18.5 in Rhyl. Last week's correspondence from NWADIA to the DVSA looked forward to meeting them virtually tonight, and stated, for example, they were told that the February waiting list was 7.6 weeks for Rhyl, 15.4 for Bangor, and overall 8.1 for Wales, when the reality appears very different, and asked, for example, whether the changes to the test are a distraction from sorting out the test situation and issues with the booking systems, and whether the DVSA has a budget from the UK Government that they allocate as they see fit. So, will you, therefore, engage with NWADIA and discuss their concerns with the UK Government?

Yes, I think that makes every sense. Now, it's pretty obvious from what Members are raising today that there seems to be a discrepancy between official figures and what we are hearing from other sources in terms of the average wait. I think we need to delve into those figures and check which are most robust, and ensure that the figures fully represent that technology that is being used by third parties to sell on booking slots and make profit from making people wait, quite frankly. So, I will meet with them and I will ascertain robust data and share it with Members.

Well, we're committed to improving local bus services to rural communities, and Transport for Wales is working closely with local authorities to deliver tangible improvements to bus services in rural areas. This work has already resulted in significant improvements to the TrawsCymru routes and new Fflecsi services in the Arfon area.

There are significant problems that have arisen in terms of public transport in the Tregarth and Mynydd Llandygai area in the Ogwen valley as a result of recent cuts to bus services. These are some of the main issues that have arisen: the bus service to Gerlan has been concluded entirely; the bus service through Llys y Gwynt has come to an end; there are no bus services on Sunday to Rachub or Tregarth or Mynydd Llandygai, even though Tregarth, for example, is a community of over 1,000 constituents.

You mentioned the TrawsCymru service, but as good as that service is on one level, it doesn't take into account everyday travel that people depend upon. Unfortunately, people feel that the emphasis on long-distance journeys has come at the expense of local services. There are similar examples to those that I've just given to be seen across rural Wales. In the case of the Ogwen valley, will you work with the local community to seek solutions to these problems in the short term, drawing the stakeholders together to sit around the table to see what is possible? Thank you.

Can I thank Siân Gwenllian for her question? I've been assured that Transport for Wales is working very closely with Gwynedd Council and indeed other partners, which include community councils in recent months, to explore new approaches to delivering better services in the region, and particularly in rural areas.

Siân Gwenllian rightly outlined why it's absolutely vital that we have greater control over the network, because under the current system too many routes and services are dropped at very short notice because they're deemed to be commercially unviable. We need to ensure that we have a robust network and one that can stand the test of time, not one that leaves passengers questioning whether the bus services are going to be operating from one week to the next. The Member rightly raised the issue of the TrawsCymru services on key routes. I think they do demonstrate what can be done when you have control over the network.

We are investing in other areas concerning public transport. We've provided the local authority with funding this financial year to enable them to continue their very welcome programme of improving bus stops and interchanges in the area. That's enabled the council to upgrade key local bus stops right across the Arfon area, including the provision of new shelters and accessible boarding facilities, better information and better lighting, because we have to ensure that public transport is as safe and convenient as it possibly can be. You have to do that not just by investing in the services, but also by investing in the infrastructure, and that's exactly what we're doing in the Arfon area.

I join Siân Gwenllian in speaking out for the needs of rural communities when it comes to public transport. Clearly, one of those important needs of our rural communities in accessing public transport is to enable them to access good jobs, and that works the other way round as well for employers, to be able to recruit from a wider area. When there's good public transport, they can recruit from rural communities as well.

I recently met with businesses from Wrexham industrial estate, including JCB, Platts Agriculture and Kellogg's, as well as Net World Sports, who met with me to explain the issues that they're experiencing around villages around Wrexham accessing public transport into the industrial estate and how that's impeding their ability to recruit from as wide a field as possible. There is a project under way at the moment to see how public transport can be improved on the industrial estate, but their frustration is the pace of delivering that and what the likely outcome may be.

I wonder if you'd be willing to work with myself and those businesses on the industrial estate to ensure that any public transport to and from the industrial estate can be accelerated and can provide assurances to those businesses that it will meet the needs that they and their employees have. Thank you.

Can I thank Sam Rowlands for his question? He highlights the importance of the Wrexham industrial alliance in providing information and intelligence about how we can improve bus services for people who currently are cut out of the jobs market. They've raised with me in the past the need to have better bus services to and from places like Caia Park, so that we can drive down levels of economic inactivity and better match people who live in areas that are cut off from employment prospects with jobs that they're able to fill with their skills.

A very important piece of work is currently under way within TfW, working with investment zone partners, and it specifically is looking at public transport provision in and around the Wrexham area. We have a public transport summit that's taking place in May, where I'm hoping that I'll be able to make an announcement about bus services in and around Wrexham related to the investment zone.

My officials are working with National Highways to help minimise the impacts of the implementation of the 7.5 tonne weight limit on the first Severn bridge and maintain accessibility into and out of Wales. No formalised diversion routes have been agreed as of now.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. I appreciate that. You and I are both aware about the works that are clearly going to be happening by National Highways, and I think we all agree that they are absolutely essential. Indeed, in my conversations with local businesses, they also recognise the importance of carrying out this work. Better to take that time now and protect it for the future, and so there's an expectation that it has to happen.

We know that there will be efforts to reconfigure junction 23 at Magor on the M4, which is already suffering from congestion. We'll need to see how that works, to see if it'll be sufficient or if more changes will be needed. But the main area of concern, and an area I've raised with you before, is the immediate attention needed around Highbeech roundabout at Chepstow. HGVs could, quite conceivably—indeed, it's likely—use this to access the A48 to head into England, if there are any closures on the Prince of Wales bridge, for instance. They will use it to access the A48 or even the A466 to Monmouth, to head to the M50, as a shortcut, if you like, through.

Cabinet Secretary, in an area of my constituency that is already plagued by appalling congestion each day, I wonder what steps the Welsh Government can take now to protect Chepstow from further transport issues. You have already committed to visit me to discuss the area generally, which I'm very grateful for, and I know that we're trying to find a date for this, but with this further threat to Chepstow, can we please get that arranged as soon as possible?

Absolutely, and I'm very grateful to Peter Fox for his recent letter outlining concerns in the area. There will be workshops that are taking place very soon. They're being organised by National Highways for key stakeholders. That will include, of course, Monmouthshire County Council, as well as the Welsh Government. I can assure the Member that I will be raising the concerns over Highbeech roundabout at the workshops, and my officials will do the same. We'll also investigate any potential measures that might mitigate the impacts of rerouting vehicles over 7.5 tonnes on roads that we're responsible for. My officials also are investigating measures that could be put in place at junction 23A to aid the local community, because it's at that point where we're going to be seeing the HGVs turning around for them to head back into England over the Prince of Wales bridge. 

Cabinet Secretary, I'm glad to hear you mentioning that junction 23 and junction 23A issue, because as you say, heavy goods vehicles coming over the second Severn crossing will loop around at that point to head towards Chepstow, for example, and that is a real pinch point. Recently, during closures of the M48 bridge, Magor and Undy residents found that journeys from their villages and towns to the M4, which normally take a few minutes, were taking, incredibly, almost two hours, because of the incredible congestion and the pinch point at that junction. So, unsurprisingly, they're very concerned about the upcoming restrictions that we're discussing in terms of HGVs and just what the consequences would be for them. Obviously, when people have to get to work, have to get to school or college, or many other commitments, if their journey is hours longer than it would normally be, it places them in great jeopardy at times, as well as the huge inconvenience involved. So, if you could address those issues, I'd be very grateful and local residents would be very grateful indeed.

I thank John Griffiths for the question, and I can assure him that we will be raising these concerns at the workshops. I was speaking with residents myself just last week who were conveying similar anxiety over the length of time that it may take as a result of the works to access services and to get to school. Obviously, this work is driven by safety concerns, and it's absolutely vital that the work takes place, but we will raise those issues that you've just outlined when we attend the workshops in the coming weeks. 

I am pleased to report that service performance has improved on the Cambrian line and, indeed, across the wider Transport for Wales network, following the introduction of the new timetable in December. Subject to rolling stock availability, TfW will add more seats to several Cambrian coast line services during the peak summer period.

The changing of the timetable is having a significant detrimental impact on the economy of the Cambrian coast, from Pwllheli down the coast to Machynlleth. I've received numerous messages from businesses who have found footfall decrease and a subsequent loss of income. At a time when the hospitality sector is already struggling, this change to the train timetable is making things worse. Pubs, restaurants, local independent cinemas, theatres and others have been impacted.

Here's one example from the lovely Morlyn guest house in Llandanwg near Harlech: 'It is little businesses like ours which are suffering. We have an ongoing contract with a Dutch company where Dutch guests arrive to us in Llandanwg by train, stay for two days then carry on by bus and train up to Llandudno, then on by train doing a grand UK tour. We're the first stop. They arrive all the way from Amsterdam on the first day, and should be able to connect at Birmingham International with the Cambrian line, arriving here at 18:13, but the connections don't always work, so inevitably, they get to us two hours later on the next train. Now that last train has gone, the only alternative is a taxi ride from Shrewsbury.'

So, can the Cabinet Secretary explain to my constituents why they should have to lose income, jobs and our economy suffer because of Transport for Wales's failure to run an effective service on the Cambrian line?

First of all, it's absolutely vital that we recognise that rail services don't just meet the needs of communities, but also the needs of tourists, as you've outlined in the message from the business that you've liaised with. In your case, it's visitors who primarily will access the service at Shrewsbury, and that's why I'm delighted that Transport for Wales will be increasing services on routes that experience higher demand in the tourist season, supporting the local economy, as the Member has said needs to happen, and, indeed, tourism right across mid Wales.

TfW plan to run an additional 16:28 Shrewsbury to Aberystwyth service during the summer months. Following Network Rail infrastructure upgrades, they plan to strengthen four daytime services from two to four cars on the Cambrian coast line. That demonstrates how Transport for Wales and the Welsh Government is meeting the needs not just of the communities that services run through, but also the needs of tourists in mid Wales.

Local authorities are responsible for mapping active travel routes, including to all schools. The next update is due on 1 December this year. The Welsh Government is also mapping all interventions to promote healthy and active school travel across Wales, improving co-ordination and targeting of resources and programmes.

What you're saying is that the Welsh Government has no role in ensuring that there is equity in this arrangement, which is of concern to me. Cardiff Council has yet to publish active travel maps for individual schools, and that's not a problem where there are families who are cyclists, because they're organising their own active travel, particularly the Friday bike bus, the most successful one of which was held in the last week of term, inflated by a famous coach, Balto, from the United States, who is part of a worldwide movement to get kids to actively go to school, whether it's walking or cycling. I think there were nearly 1,000 people travelling from Victoria park to four or five schools in Cardiff West.

That's fantastic, but it really leaves out the schools where there are very few parents who have cycles, who know how to cycle safely, and whose children are therefore disadvantaged because they simply don't have those options. At Llanishen High School, they simply haven't been able to institute bicycling to school from Pentwyn as part of the transitional school arrangements. That means that families who live just short of the 3 miles to enable them to go by bus for free are having to shell out over £400 a year in bus fares because they simply don't understand and don't have access to the means to track a safe route to school by bike. This really is an equity issue—

Will you come to your question now, please?

—and I want to know what action the Cabinet Secretary will take to accelerate action to resolve this, particularly at your learner summit next week. This is an ideal opportunity.

Well, of course, enabling more children to walk, wheel and cycle to education is one of my key priorities, and it was a great pleasure to address the healthy and active school journeys conference just last month and answer some pretty tough questions from the children from Radnor Primary School. Creating safe and accessible routes to schools needs to be a focus of all local authorities, and we as a Government require them to map routes to every school on their active travel network map for every town. Now, all active travel routes are mapped on DataMapWales, but I would encourage local authorities to consider more proactive and certainly more user-friendly ways of promoting active travel routes in their areas.

And it can be funded. That work can be funded from the active travel fund. I do think that there are, actually, great examples across Wales that need to be shared and promoted. For example, in Monmouthshire, they've done some superb work in developing maps that show people travel times for walking and cycling to central points. Now, the Member may be interested to know that we are developing a new hub in Welsh Government that will allow us to better co-ordinate this sort of activity in the future and better target the support that is required to develop a more accessible set of maps, as the Member has outlined.

The ability to travel is something that a lot of us, I think, take for granted, but this is sadly not the case for all. Making public transport accessible, safe and welcoming for everybody is a key priority, especially for those who rely on our networks to go about their lives.

Thank you for that. This is something I feel really passionately about, and I know that you do as well. Our public transport systems have to be made accessible. Public transport should be designed in ways that allow all passengers to use it safely, but that isn't always the case. Poorly lit walkways can make women feel less safe. The design of too many stops and stations can exclude disabled people, and too often, trains and bus services can still be cancelled at short notice, even late at night, abandoning passengers in places where they can't find a safe route home. In all these instances, flaws in the design of these services make people vulnerable. I've argued this before. There isn't anything intrinsic about being a woman or disabled that makes people vulnerable. It's how the design of services and spaces makes people—. It creates that vulnerability in places that we're all meant to share.

Now, I'm grateful that you've agreed to have a meeting with me to discuss how we could tackle these issues in Wales. Could I invite you, please, to state again your intention to work to address these problems?

Yes, and can I thank Delyth Jewell for this sincere and heartfelt plea to make sure that public transport is more accessible and that the transport network is safe and accessible for the most vulnerable individuals? If we can make it safe and accessible for the most vulnerable, it will be safe and accessible for every single person in our society. Now, I believe that a meeting has now been diarised between myself and Delyth Jewell. I'm looking forward to exploring the issue with her.

I've also just received a letter back from the active travel panel at Transport for Wales regarding this very important issue. With their consent, I'd be glad to share that letter with the Member. I did set out very recently my vision for transport for all over the next 12 months, and it's including a rapid audit of all rail stations for their accessibility, so that we can look at which stations need to be prioritised for funding.

I thank the Cabinet Secretary.

The next item will be the questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice, and the first question is from Laura Anne Jones.

Diolch yn fawr. Presiding Officer, I understand you've given permission for questions 1 and 4 to be grouped.

The Welsh Government respects the decision of the Supreme Court. We will take the time to consider the judgment carefully and take the steps that are required to meet our obligations under the Equality Act 2010 as clarified by the ruling.

Diolch. The Supreme Court's decision was a landmark ruling, which put an end to this farcical episode in our history, in which politicians, including the Welsh Government, were unable to define a woman. Indeed, six months after I asked you in a written question to provide me with your Government's definition, I still haven't had a response.

It is important to note that this Supreme Court ruling has not removed the rights of trans people; they still, rightly, have legal protection, and I know that we all in this Chamber welcome that. This, again, has never been about being anti anybody. It was, in fact, biological women who had their rights eroded and now, this ruling is a turning point in which women and girls will regain those rights. It would be great to see the Welsh Government treat women and girls with the same respect, kindness and compassion that they demand for others.

But after this significant ruling, we still don’t know what’s going to actually change in Wales. The First Minister says that we’re going to get a report from her later in the summer, which I think is unacceptable for such a significant issue. So, what are we waiting for, Cabinet Secretary? Stalling until summer is really not an option. The European convention on human rights has made it clear that delaying this ruling equates to the discrimination of women and girls. Your portfolio is significant and fundamental to making these changes. Could you please provide the Senedd with a solid timeline of when we can expect Welsh Government’s next actions to be on this? Because women and girls have waited long enough and I’m sure that you don’t want them to wait any longer. Diolch.

Thank you for your question. As you know, I issued a written statement yesterday, a written statement on the Supreme Court ruling on the Equality Act 2010, and I started that statement by saying that the Welsh Government is firmly committed to equality and inclusion and protecting the dignity and human rights of all people in Wales. And I think that also was reflected in the response from the First Minister yesterday when she said that our Government would act with respect, compassion and kindness, but obviously taking the court’s judgment seriously.

And as she said, we will now take our time to work through the implications of this, and it is important that we do take our time, as I said in my written statement, to consider the judgment. Indeed, there was an update last week from the Equality and Human Rights Commission; we need to look at that carefully and to take the steps required, as I said, to meet our obligations under the Equality Act. But I will repeat, as well, the First Minister, who referred to the words of Lord Hodge when he delivered the Supreme Court ruling that this must not be read as a triumph of one or more groups at the expense of another. This is something that we need to receive and listen to and talk to all those who may be affected by this and make sure that discrimination and harassment against all people with one or more protected characteristics are neither legal nor in any way acceptable.

I completely agree with Lord Hodge, as well as the sentiment in your written statement. I have had a great deal of correspondence on this matter from my constituents, most of them are concerned about the implications of the Equality and Human Rights Commission's guidance, which seems to be quite ill thought through, because it seems to me that it causes as many problems as it solves. The new guidance is simply not enforceable without public surveillance in areas like public toilets and changing rooms, and that's not desirable to anyone. Considering this, how does the Welsh Government plan to assert the rights of all people with protected characteristics, in line with the LGBTQ action plan?

Thank you very much for that question, Jenny Rathbone. I think we should be clear that this interpretation of the Equality Act 2010 does not remove protection from trans people. I'm particularly concerned, as I was in my written statement, to understand that respecting the rights of trans people is key to ensuring this protection in terms of their situation.

I think the judgment is important in that it makes it clear that trans people can continue to be protected from discrimination and harassment based on the protected characteristics of gender reassignment. But this protection for trans people and respecting the rights of trans people was key to my statement. This is something on which we will engage with the Equality and Human Rights Commission. We will not rush to respond to the judgment. We'll take our time and we won't speculate on forthcoming guidance that's coming from the Equality and Human Rights Commission. I understand that the interim guidance, as it was called, is actually an update; it's not a guidance in law from the Equality and Human Rights Commission. So, we have to take this step by step, listen to people, meet and reach out, which I am certainly seeking to do over the coming days and weeks, to hear people's views and also their concerns, and many of you, I know, as you said, have had concerns raised with you from your constituents.

You're right that we need to think through the impact on people's lives carefully and considerately, and in doing so, perhaps separate some of the rhetoric around this with the reality of the impact. And the reality is that the trans community is significantly more likely to be on the receiving end of aggression than to be the aggressor, and that fear has been somewhat exacerbated recently.

Cabinet Secretary, we've heard plenty of talk of clarity following the Supreme Court's decision, but my correspondence shows that it's not as clear-cut as that, far from it, and also the impact of the ECHR interim guidance, as raised by Jenny Rathbone. For example, what about the impact on cis women, who may not appear as feminine as others? For example, someone who, due to polycystic ovary syndrome, has raised testosterone? Would they be subject to interrogation at public bathrooms because they didn't look female enough? What protections will there be for them?

What about intersex people? The Equality Act applies to boys and girls too, so what does the guidance, the ruling, potentially mean in the interpretation of a mother taking their young son into a female bathroom? Does that mean it's no longer a single-sex space? There are very many questions and concerns that need to be thoroughly thought through and looked at, and they've been raised with me, and I'll be following up in more detail in writing to you, Cabinet Secretary. 

I welcome, in your initial response, that the Welsh Government will take the time to consider this, because I think, Cabinet Secretary, it's really important that the Welsh Government doesn't have a knee-jerk reaction to this and make any decisions quickly, but approaches it, as we said, carefully, with compassion, and, in doing so, fully engage the LGBTQ+ community in Wales.

Thank you very much, Hannah Blythyn. I did respond yesterday to a question about the way we were taking forward our LGBTQ+ action plan. I think it is important that we do hear—and I look forward to receiving all those points in writing. So, for me, that is something I can respond to, as we look at the impact of this judgment. As you say, this is about us not taking any knee-jerk decisions, approaching this carefully, with compassion, and, in doing so, engaging with the LGBTQ+ community, but also respecting that—. I'm looking forward to meeting anyone who has concerns, any groups that have concerns, and from the LGBTQ+ community particularly, but across the board, I am happy to—. In terms of our equality community here in Wales, who I engage fully with, I will be looking forward to hearing their views as well.

Thank you for that question. We are committed to preventing modern slavery across all supply chains, including manufacturing. Our modern slavery statement outlines the steps we are taking to mitigate these risks. We also encourage organisations to adhere to our code of practice on ethical employment in supply chains.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. Last week the UK energy Secretary indicated that the UK Government would seek to block Chinese-made solar panels being used by the newly created Great British Energy company, over concerns about the use of slave labour in their manufacture. Sadly, many supply chains in the manufacture of renewable energy generators, from turbines to photovoltaics, rely upon either slave labour in producing the end products or in mining the raw material needed to produce them. How will you work with Cabinet colleagues and the UK Government to ensure that our green energy transition is not built upon the backs of the slaves elsewhere in the world?

Thank you for that follow-up question. We oppose, as I have said, modern slavery in all its forms, and we are committed to ethical supply chains. We did welcome the announcement by the UK Government that Great British Energy will act to secure supply chains that are free of forced or slave labour. As I have said, we published our guide, the code of practice on ethical employment in supply chains, but we were the first devolved Government to publish a modern slavery statement, so we work closely to ensure that that is delivered, in collaboration with the UK Government. And they have developed updated guidance on modern slavery statements.

And you will be aware, Altaf, that, last week, the UK Government announced an amendment to the Bill that's going through Parliament at the moment that's going to make measures for ensuring that slavery and human trafficking are not taking place in its business or supply chains, with an ambition that GB Energy serve as a sector leader in building new energy infrastructure, as we all want here in Wales, leading in building new energy infrastructure using ethical supply chains.

Questions now from the party spokespeople. Welsh Conservatives spokesperson, Altaf Hussain.

Thank you, Presiding Officer. Cabinet Secretary, yesterday, the Future Generations Commissioner for Wales launched his report noting the progress made over the 10 years since the introduction of the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015. Sadly, little progress was evident in the report, apart from free school meals and recycling rates—things that would have happened regardless of the Act. Cabinet Secretary, do you believe the future generations Act is working as intended?

Thank you very much, Altaf Hussain. Well, I've been really pleased to be involved in the celebrations for the tenth anniversary of the well-being of future generations Act, and in fact attended a leaders' meeting yesterday that took place in the National Museum Amgueddfa Cymru. And I very much welcome the reports that were produced. They are statutory reports, produced every five years. And the recognition that, as there were leaders in the room—of course, I was there as the Welsh Government—welcoming and celebrating the tenth anniversary, but recognising that it was for all the public bodies in Wales, which are subject to the Act, to take responsibility for implementing that, which I believe has made a huge impact. The prominence of the Act, which is globally recognised, but also across all public bodies with responsibility, is having an influence on the way that we deliver policy and services here in Wales. Yes, we have very good examples, and the recycling world leader and the delivery of free school meals for all primary school children are very good examples, but there are many, many more examples that those public bodies, which were attending, and the leadership, were sharing yesterday.

Thank you for that response, Cabinet Secretary. Sadly, I, and many others, believe that the Act is not delivering upon its lofty aims. We are not improving the well-being of the future generations. According to the commissioner's own stats, 21 per cent of all people in Wales live in relative poverty, and a staggering 29 per cent of children live in poverty. We are also not a healthy nation: Wales is home to the highest number of people living with diabetes in the UK. Why has not the Act delivered actions to tackle poverty? Why has not the Act forced public bodies to focus on preventing diabetes? Cabinet Secretary, how will you ensure that public bodies across the country refocus efforts on improving well-being, at the same time as taking actions on preventative healthcare?

Well, thank you for that recognition that it is for the public bodies in Wales to deliver on their obligations as a result of a statutory well-being of future generations Act, and those public bodies are represented across Wales, from local government to the health service to Natural Resources Wales. The range of public bodies, of course, has increased. We added eight additional public bodies to the Act as a result of a call from public bodies to be able to play their full part in delivering on the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act, which is widely regarded around the world, and, in fact, received an award from the United Nations only recently. I think it is important in the report that was published yesterday that it does look at implementation and impact—that's what we need to see—but I'll be glad to be speaking more about this, about the challenges and the opportunities, and the delivery of the Act, when I give an oral statement to the Chamber in June.

Diolch, Cabinet Secretary. Despite Governments at both ends of the M4 trying to paint a glossy picture, the prospects for future generations look bleak. According to the Trussell Trust research released this morning, 420,000 people in Wales, including 110,000 children, are facing hunger and hardship, living well below the poverty line. The Chancellor has made the situation worse for working families, and efforts being taken on the UK Government's net zero goals will further impoverish future generations by increasing the price of energy in Wales. Cabinet Secretary, if you truly care for future generations, you'll oppose moves by Ed Miliband to introduce regional energy pricing. The one thing I can agree with the future generations commissioner on is that the challenges faced are significant, yet not insurmountable. However, I don't believe the Act or the commissioner will help us address those challenges. Do you?

Well, I hope very much you will meet, and I'm sure you have met, with the future generations commissioner, Derek Walker. It was really important that all parties were involved in his appointment, and this report is his first report. I think the work that he's done in terms of 'Cymru Can' actually counteracts what you are saying today, in terms of what Wales is doing as a small nation and what we are doing to tackle those issues and challenges, which, I have to say, have come about as a result of 14 years of austerity under a Conservative Government, which of course has disadvantaged our communities, our environment, our children. And yet we are still proud of the fact that we have got half the youth unemployment in Wales than across the border in England because of our initiatives like the young person's guarantee. I realise this is a very political take from Altaf this afternoon, in terms of looking at the well-being of future generations Act, in relation to what I would have to say are the negatives—our assessment of what we've been stuck with for 14 years as a result of the former Conservative Government—and what we are now seeking to turn around, indeed, in terms of the opportunities we've got in Wales.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Adam Price.

Thank you very much, Llywydd. Cabinet Secretary, the Equality and Human Rights Commission will present a draft statutory code of practice on single-sex services to UK Ministers by the end of June, which is within eight weeks' time. If accepted, after the 40-day scrutiny period comes to an end, courts and service providers will then be under a statutory duty to give it due regard—that is, it will be a statutory code at that point.

Is there a problem with the interpretation?

Before the code is confirmed, will you convene Wales-wide discussions, bringing together women's organisations, trans and LGBT communities, front-line providers and legal experts, and then submit a formal Welsh Government response, so that the Welsh experience and evidence shape the final code?

Diolch yn fawr, Adam Price. I'm really very grateful for that question, because that's precisely what I'm already seeking to do—to reach out to those who are already approaching the Welsh Government, asking if they can consult, they can talk to us. I’m talking to organisations who were, for example, advising us in the development of our groundbreaking LGBTQ+ action plan, but also organisations, for example, like the Women’s Equality Network, who represent a wide range of women’s organisations in Wales as well—so, reaching out to all of the equality organisations. And as you say, our understanding is—and we are due to meet with the Equality and Human Rights Commission—that they are looking towards a statutory code of guidance.

At this present point in time, it’s really important to understand that the interim guidance last week was in fact only an update, and we have got to use this time—and we started, obviously, as soon as the judgment came through—in reaching out and consulting, and receiving all the views. And, of course, today is part of that, with questions, obviously, scrutiny, and my written statement yesterday. So, thank you for that. That is certainly what we are seeking to do.

The LGBTQ+ action plan that you just referred to had included decisive steps to improve the lives of trans people, including expanding the Welsh Gender Service, issuing inclusive guidance for schools and colleges, removing barriers to participation in sport, modernising NHS data systems, and pressing for the devolution of gender recognition powers.

As some of these pledges are now more than two years overdue—well, haven’t been implemented—are you still committed to each and every one of those pledges, and what is the timetable now for delivery? If they are to be dropped, or further delayed, do you accept that Wales’s aim of becoming the most LGBTQ+ friendly nation in Europe by 2030 will become harder, if not impossible, to achieve?

Well, I do hope that we can move forward in terms of our ambitions for Wales to be the most LGBTQ friendly nation in Europe. That remains our commitment, and I think the LGBTQ+ action plan does set out the steps we are taking to strengthen equality for LGBTQ+ people.

Obviously, we have to take time to digest the ruling and its implications, and we are assessing not just the LGBTQ+ action plan, but policies across the board. But I want to reassure Members that the LGBTQ+ action plan is that framework that we are committed to delivering on in terms of LGBTQ+ policy development across Government, and it is with our partners. And it’s really also about how we're strengthening equality for LGBTQ+ people, challenging discrimination. And it’s about an overarching vision to improve the lives and outcomes for LGBTQ+ people, wide-ranging policy-specific actions, as you said. They relate to human rights, education, improving safety, housing, health and social care, sport, culture and promoting community cohesion.

I think it’s helpful, perhaps, if I just—. I would like to refer to a comment that Jeremy Miles made yesterday when he was interviewed about this issue in terms of the impact on health and social care in terms of the judgment. And he said, in the interview, which some people might have heard, that what the ruling is about is a legal definition in one piece of legislation. It does not define the Government’s approach to treating everybody equally, treating everybody inclusively, making sure that trans individuals feel safe, feel respected. That does not change.

I think that’s a really important statement that Jeremy made yesterday. Again, I’m not a lawyer, and I realise that there are issues here about how we respond to this in terms of the judgment and the legal status.

I welcome that message very much, Cabinet Secretary. And finally, the debate on trans people’s rights has grown increasingly polarised, often fuelled by ignorance or misinformation, and this harms not just trans people but also erodes wider societal trust in general. Wales could take a different path, grounded in the well-being of future generations Act's principles of dignity and respect for everyone. Will you, therefore, consider, having perhaps taken advice from the Innovating Democracy Advisory Group that has just been convened, creating an independent civic commission or a citizens' assembly that gives a clear platform to women's voices, the voices of trans people and of the wider LGBTQ+ community, supported by community dialogue forums, academic research, all based on discussion that respects everyone? Could this not provide a positive way to lower the temperature, to build consensus and to show how Wales can lead with both compassion and evidence?

Thank you very much. Diolch yn fawr, Adam Price. I would very much like to follow up how we can engage with the democratic innovation advisory group in this way. I think you will have seen in my written statement that I concluded the statement by saying that we do acknowledge the fear and uncertainty that trans people, particularly across Wales, may be experiencing and feeling, assuring that the Welsh Government will value respect, compassion and kindness in all its interactions with trans people and communities. But I think your wider point about how we can build an understanding and consensus is really important, and I would hope that would embrace views that are expressed here in this Chamber, which might be uncomfortable and challenging. I hope that I've been able to at least reach out and reassure you and Members about the way in which we want to move this forward as much as possible in the spirit of what Lord Hodge said, that we should not be seeing this as a triumph of one or more groups in society at the expense of another.

Just one final point, Dirprwy Lywydd, if I may, on this is that we are seeking an update on the UK Government proposal to equalise hate crime protections in law. That's something that we've called for since the Law Commission's 2021 recommendation. It hasn't been commenced yet, but we know that there is hate crime in this whole arena of policy, and we want to counteract that. We want to have equal rights in terms of human rights in how people treat each other, and I'm grateful for your questions this afternoon.

Diolch yn fawr, Rhys ab Owen. We are using every lever available to us to support families that need it most. Our continued commitment to maintain free breakfasts in primary schools, along with our universal primary free school meal offer and school milk scheme, is helping keep much needed money in families’ pockets.

Diolch, Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet. Your Westminster colleagues recently announced that 750 free school breakfast clubs were opening in state primary schools. As you know better than most, this has been Welsh Government policy for over 20 years, with published figures estimating that 100 million free school breakfasts have been served in the last decade. However, schools can choose whether they participate or not in the scheme, and not all schools, obviously, do. The information on which schools do not participate is not easily available on the local authority website or StatsWales. It seems that schools with a lower-than-average proportion of children eligible for free school meals are less likely to run a free breakfast club. This then exacerbates the feeling of inequality that perhaps these children already feel. Does the Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice agree that data on how many schools have signed up for the free breakfast in primary school scheme should be part of the published data and, therefore, easily accessible for parents who are planning their lives in Wales? Diolch yn fawr.

Thank you very much for that question. It is useful to give a little bit of history on this. We introduced the free breakfast initiative in primary schools back in 2004, and I remember the day well. Some of us were there to really welcome that introduction. In fact, it was a specific grant-funded initiative and it is now part of the local government settlement 20 or so years on, and it's protecting free breakfast provision in terms of that funding allocation. It is important that we take stock of the provision and the entitlement of children to that provision. It's increased over 4,900 since 2023, and an increase of 7,700 in the previous year. As you say, it's through pupil level annual school census data that we get this information, but, on the day of the census last year, just for Members to know, 56,587 primary school age pupils received a free breakfast. But I am sure that we can look at ways in which we can get that information, as you've called for, more readily available. 

Cabinet Secretary, it's important that children eat a healthy, nutritional breakfast that fills them up, whether it be at home or, indeed, at school. Analysis by the Joseph Rowntree Foundation shows that child poverty in Wales is set to reach its highest rate in 30 years by the end of this decade, with more than 34 per cent of children living in a low-income household. This is five percentage points up from the current rate, and it could see around 32,000 children pushed into poverty in Wales. According to the same report, Wales is already at the bottom of devolved nations in terms of child poverty rates, and when the regions in England are, indeed, included, the figures show that only the east midlands is worse off than us. The report claims that Wales fares so badly because it has lower rates of employment, below average rates of pay and higher rates of benefit receipts, as well as differences in family type and size. The inability to effectively tackle child poverty is indeed one of the major failings of Welsh Labour's 26 governing years here in Wales. Now, what urgent actions are you planning on taking to reduce these shocking figures and give children born in Wales the same life chances as their counterparts elsewhere across the UK? Thank you.

Well, again, the Welsh Conservatives never seem to want to take any responsibility whatsoever for 14 years—[Interruption.]—14 years of austerity. And I do seem to recall that the Welsh Conservatives didn't agree with the free school breakfast scheme in the first place. Let's also recognise the fact that we have now got universal primary free school meals being delivered to all our primary schools, thanks to the co-operation agreement. And it's important to say that more than 42 million additional free school meals have been served since roll-out commenced in September 2022. I'll always recall when I met with the Bevan Foundation, when I had this portfolio of social justice, and I remember Dr Winckler saying that to tackle the provision of free school meals for primary school pupils was a key way to tackle child poverty, and I'm glad that we're delivering on that.

Question 4 was grouped. Question 5, Llyr Gruffydd. 

Thank you very much. I have raised the two-child limit and the benefits cap with the UK Government at the four nations ministerial group on the development of the UK Government child poverty strategy.

Scrapping the cap would lift 350,000 children out of poverty overnight—overnight—and it would also mean that 700,000 children would be living in less deep poverty. In fact, if it is not scrapped, then child poverty will be significantly higher at the end of this UK Parliament than when your party took office, making this the first time a Labour Government would leave such a legacy. Now, do you agree, therefore, with the Child Poverty Action Group and organisations such as Barnardo's, Save the Children and Citizens Advice, who say that scrapping the two-child benefit limit would be the most cost-effective way to reduce child poverty?

Thank you. I am aware of the call from those charities and organisations representing children in lower income families, and not just the call to the Prime Minister this month, but also in my meetings with the organisations—the End Child Poverty Network. And I will say, and I think you will recall, that I said in the debate—in fact, it was a Plaid Cymru debate before Easter—that I did report to the Senedd that I'd raised the issue of the two-child limit. I've raised the issue of the benefits cap as well with the UK Government. I've called for this to be addressed as a key plank for the UK child poverty strategy to address child poverty. And I can repeat what I said: I said that would be the most important lever in terms of tackling child poverty if the two-child limit was addressed. We've always said, in terms of tackling child poverty—we have our child poverty strategy, and we spend millions on tackling child poverty—that it's tax and benefits that are key to tackling child poverty. I hope that makes my position clear in terms of my representations.

Good afternoon, Cabinet Secretary. This is one of the most unjust situations for our children here in Wales, and, I have to say, I have the greatest respect for Natasha, but for you to stand there and say—. The Conservative Government, the UK Conservative Government, did nothing about the two-child benefit cap, which is not within the power of the Welsh Government—it's about the UK Government, and you did nothing, and the Conservatives now are speaking out against it. However, going over to you, and I have the greatest respect for you, Cabinet Secretary, but you are now part of a Labour administration that is continuing with what the Conservatives brought in, which is actually not scrapping the two-child benefit cap. So, I'm going to follow on with what my colleague Llyr has asked you. It's a simple 'yes' or 'no': do you agree that the two-child benefit cap should be scrapped? Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Well, I think I've made my position quite clear, Jane Dodds. I have said that this is the key lever to tackling child poverty—ending the two-child benefit cap. And I would hope that the Labour Government in Westminster will. We hope that it will listen to all of those and take the evidence. They have tough decisions that they've got to make though, haven't they? They have, because of the black hole that was left by the Conservative Government. But we have said continuously that this should be a priority in terms of social security for children and tackling child poverty.

Diolch yn fawr, Carolyn Thomas. In March, I invested a further £1.3 million into a loan expansion scheme established in 2022 to boost credit union lending. The purpose of this additional funding was to give credit unions more confidence to lend to people who are financially vulnerable and, therefore, at risk.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary, for that answer. The Financial Conduct Authority has found that 18 per cent of Welsh adults have cut back on essentials to prioritise debt or credit repayments, highlighting the damage caused by unmanageable debt. I welcome the Welsh Government's funding boost for credit unions, which provide a vital and affordable financial lifeline. Figures show that 80 per cent of money borrowed via Welsh credit unions is actually spent here in Wales, supporting our local economies. But not everybody is aware of credit unions. So, would you join with me, Cabinet Secretary, in encouraging those who require access to credit or savings to take another look at the services offered by our credit unions? And would you help promote them as well? Thank you.

Thank you very much, Carolyn Thomas, and thank you for raising the question so that we can all take part in that, as I'm sure many across this Chamber are members of their credit unions and supporting them. So, I encourage anyone looking for affordable credit to speak to their local credit union.

Diolch yn fawr, Mabon ap Gwynfor. The CAFCASS Cymru domestic abuse practice guidance, last published in 2019, is currently being updated, which I welcome, and is due to be relaunched on 14 May.

Thanks for that response, Cabinet Secretary. You'll be aware of the 2020 harm report, setting out concerns that included that the family justice system doesn't effectively protect victims of domestic abuse. A new policy was then implemented in England in October of last year, yet it will have been at least eight months before a new policy is implemented here in Wales—as you said, in the middle of next month—with parents and children undergoing family court proceedings in Wales being at a disadvantage in the meantime. Now, this is the jagged edge of the flawed devolution settlement, where justice isn't devolved, yet those working within the sector work to Welsh legislation, but within an English judicial system. So, Cabinet Secretary, how is the Welsh Government ensuring that the lessons from the harm report, already being addressed in England, are swiftly and effectively applied here in Wales to support domestic abuse victims and safeguard their children? And what action is this Government taking to ensure the devolution of justice, so that parents and families don't suffer from inconsistent policies? 

Thank you very much for that question because this is really important. Of course, we have CAFCASS Cymru and they are now producing the CAFCASS Cymru practice guidance, very much responding to not only the 2020 harm report, but also acknowledging and drawing from the CAFCASS guidance in England. Importantly, this is going to be published on 14 May. It is the responsibility of the Minister for Children and Social Care, so I will be jointly publishing this, attending a conference.

The important thing about this guidance is how CAFCASS Cymru practitioners can best support those children, with whom they are involved as part of their family court proceedings, who are at risk of or have experienced domestic violence. It is a key part of our priority work stream within the violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence blueprint and we will, of course, make this available to colleagues and Members following its publication on 14 May.

Thank you, Joyce Watson. We will mark the 10-year anniversary of our groundbreaking Act with a variety of activities and events. The anniversary will give us an opportunity to celebrate progress, reflect on challenges and strengthen a future commitment to tackle the endemic problem of violence against women and girls.

Thank you. It was, of course, at the time in 2015, groundbreaking. Now, alongside the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015, which is also celebrating a 10-year anniversary this year, perhaps it's time to take stock and move forward. With the Online Safety Act 2023 plus dedicated police centres to end violence against women and girls coming on stream soon across the UK, would you agree that we can and we should work collaboratively to make further progress to end violence against women and girls?

Thank you very much, Joyce Watson, and thank you for your leadership, your campaigning, your championing of violence against women, particularly with the White Ribbon campaign. That is something where I believe there is a collective, across this Chamber, commitment to delivering on tackling violence against women. We have to do this collectively. We all have to stand up against violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence. I very much welcomed the fact that we co-tabled that debate earlier this year on accelerating action to eliminate gender-based violence, which, of course, was the key theme of International Women's Day.

I will be co-hosting a VAWDASV summit with Emma Wools, Police and Crime Commissioner for South Wales, this autumn. I'm sure we will have another White Ribbon vigil. By engaging all our public sector leaders and the criminal justice system, we will, as partners, be accelerating action to tackle gender-based violence.

But I also want to just quickly comment on your point about the Online Safety Act, because 10 years is a long time and a lot has happened in the last 10 years. There are challenges that are very different as a result of social media and online abuse. I just wanted to say that I recently met the chief executive of Ofcom Wales and made clear my support for clear and consistent standards across social media platforms to inform online safety. I do welcome the publication last week of protection of children guides, and also they're consulting on 'A safer life online for women and girls'. We've got to be strong, proactive and fast paced in our approach to safeguarding women and girls in terms of tackling violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence.

So, again, thank you for that question, and we will be marking it, celebrating it, but also accelerating action, I know, as a result of the tenth anniversary.

 Finally, question 9, Lesley Griffiths.

Thank you, Lesley Griffiths. I have regularly engaged with UK Government justice Ministers and key partners who are leading on this important programme of work. The Lord Chancellor’s newly established national women in justice board will focus on alternatives to custody. We are supporting the board to ensure the unique circumstances in Wales are properly understood.

Thank you very much. As you're aware, the opening of this residential centre is a very long-running saga, and it's now three years since the site in Swansea was identified for the location of such a centre. As you're very well aware, women from south Wales who receive a prison sentence are sent to HM Prison Eastwood Park, and from north Wales, they're sent to Styal prison in Manchester. Like yourself, I've visited both prisons and have seen first-hand the difficulties caused by prisoners being so far away from their families and friends. It is vital that we find an alternative to custody, but when prison is the correct punishment, women should be placed much, much closer to home. So, it's very good to hear of the progress report, but please could you continue to press for an early residential opening, please?

Thank you, Lesley Griffiths, and thank you again. When you were responsible in this area, I recall how you spoke of the shock, really, of visiting women in those prisons. And, of course, when I and, in fact, Mick Antoniw, in his previous role, visited Eastwood Park, the governor said, 'The majority of women here are victims themselves: victims of poverty, victims of domestic abuse, substance misuse, trauma in their lives.' We have got the site, we've got the approval, we must have this residential women's centre opened. So, I'm very grateful again that Members raise this with me, because I am due to meet with the UK Government to play my part in their women in justice board and show that Wales can be the lead with this residential women's centre.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary.

Item 3 is questions to the Senedd Commission—there is only one today. Carolyn Harris. Carolyn Thomas, sorry. [Laughter.]

The wrong Parliament.

The Commission uses a range of initiatives to promote Commission events taking place on the Senedd estate. Depending on the type of event, this could include encouraging public attendance at the event through the Eventbrite website, social media, the Senedd website, or through media engagement.

Through our promotion of this year’s St David’s Day event on social media, we reached nearly 200,000 people, with over 2,000 visitors coming to the Senedd itself to join in our celebrations.

But, of course, the majority of events arranged on the estate are Member-sponsored events. Whether members of the public are invited to such events, or are encouraged to attend these events, will ordinarily be a matter for the sponsoring Member or the external organiser.

Thank you for that answer. I really welcome the lamp post banners that have appeared that advertise the Senedd and the Pierhead building. I'm hosting a biodiversity event next week—I'm calling it 'the Senedd biodiversity event'—with 20 organisations coming, and I really would like members of the public to be able to come and meet the organisations as well, and I was wondering if you'd be able to use the electronic boards outside to promote the event to them.

May I also ask if you are doing anything to improve the signage, so that when people come, they know where the actual entrance is and to actually say that members of the public are welcome to go into the building? Thank you.

I can give you a very positive answer on the second question and maybe not as positive an answer, in your respect, on the first of those. So, on the signage to the Senedd, to make sure that people who are wandering around outside in the bay or have arranged to visit, then it has been an issue—and I think you were the first to raise it with me in a question here, Carolyn—that we need to make it clearer to people where the actual door is. We know really well where that door is to come into the Senedd, but not everybody can see that as clearly. So, we have now okayed the designs for those signs, and by the time that you next ask me a Commission question, then hopefully the signs will be up and obvious where the door and entrance to the Senedd is. And it's important on a day like this, when we're now in Tŷ Hywel, for people to know that the Senedd building is still open. And I was over there this morning, actually, and it was very active with lots of people visiting and events happening.

On events that happen in the Senedd that are sponsored by Members—and there are very many of those, as we know; there are probably six to 10 events happening just today—the publicity for those events, making sure that people, members of the public or invited guests are aware of their ability to access those events, is the responsibility of the Member or the sponsoring organisation that's working with you, as Members, to hold those events. It's not a direct responsibility of the Commission as it stands because it would be quite an effort to publicise all those events happening weekly. So, for example, for St David's Day, International Women's Day, International Day of Persons with Disabilities, then those are events that the Commission sponsors and promotes, and we obviously do the promotion on behalf of those events, but at the moment, it's for Members such as yourself, and the work that you do with biodiversity day, to be promoting those, and if you want members of the public to be attending, then please make sure that they are aware of that and I'm sure they'll be interested in attending.

I thank the Llywydd.

Thank you.

Item 4 is the topical questions. There is one topical question that has been accepted today and that question comes from Andrew R.T. Davies.

Thank you. The Welsh Government is working closely with the company and will support the affected employees once the consultation process has finished. We have a proven partnership approach and support network, including the Department for Work and Pensions, Careers Wales and the local authority employability team, that provides advice and guidance and retraining packages through ReAct+.

Thank you, Minister, for that statement. You have indicated the closeness in working with the company. This is a devastating blow to the town of Barry. Nearly 300 jobs potentially to be lost over a number of years. I would ask you: as the union have been pressing, what is your hope that some of those jobs could be reallocated in the factory and, indeed, this decision reversed in its totality, as the union are calling for?

Secondly, what hope have you got that the rest of the site is secure? Because, obviously, there remains to be 500 to 550 jobs on the site in Barry, and it's important that this isn't the signalling of a salami-slicing of the overall job count at that important manufacturing site in Barry.

Thirdly, what assistance will you be able to offer to those workers who will, sadly, if this job loss is enacted, lose their jobs? What assistance will you be able to offer them, given it's over a number of years that these jobs are set to be lost?

And my final point to you: this is another sign of the pressure that the manufacturing industry is having to deal with here in Wales and the UK, so how are you working with the UK Government to make sure that costs are stripped out and that manufacturing in this country remains competitive and we don't lose jobs to competitors overseas who have a lower cost base, but don't adhere to the standards that we adhere to in this country?

Can I thank the Member for those points and bringing forward this important question today? He's absolutely right that the news that Dow will close part of its operations will be indeed worrying for some in the workforce in Barry, their families and the wider community, and we, as the Welsh Government, stand ready to support the workforce affected by this decision and to work with the company to ensure that they maintain a presence in Barry. 

Llywydd, I must stress the importance of the company engaging in meaningful discussion and engagement with the trade union through this process, to outline some of the first points that the Member asked today. I'll run through the series of questions to try and give the Member assurance on the actions that we will take. The Member also asked for assurance on the rest of the site, and the company has stressed they intend to continue with and to invest in the finishing and specialist silicone manufacturing part of the site, which employs, I think, roughly 310 staff in that part of the business.

The Member then asks what support we will be able to offer in the event of job losses at the site, and indeed I hope the engagement with the trade unions will bring more positive outcomes to that. In the event of job losses at the site, we will stand ready to support them through our ReAct+ programme. In that event, I will make sure the Member is fully briefed on what the ReAct+ programme entails and how his residents can join that programme in that particular event.

The Member makes a wider point, Presiding Officer, on the work with UK Government colleagues for manufacturing businesses. We're very engaged, and the Cabinet Secretary for economy is very engaged, as I am with my skills responsibilities, when it comes to manufacturing businesses. We engage heavily with organisations such as Make UK and the Confederation of British Industry and others, with our partners in the UK Government, and we'll be working with them around the industrial strategy. Advanced manufacturing in Wales is a key part of the Welsh economy and we will want to see our part being played in the UK industrial strategy going forward. So, I hope that gives assurance that we are working with our colleagues in Westminster.

Presiding Officer, when it comes to the sites in Barry and the Member's region, just to be clear, we have engaged in conversations with them, but not just with the company, with the supply chain as well. We have reached out directly to companies within the supply chain, such as Cabot, who have a very real synergy in their business with the manufacturer, Dow, and we have asked for the information from the company about any contractors that may be affected because of this decision. We would look to support them in the way that I have outlined as well going forward. Diolch.

May I thank the Member for raising this important issue? Obviously it's of huge concern to all of us that represent the constituency and the region. I thank you for your response, Minister. If I may, in terms of the point you raised in terms of the UK Government's new industrial strategy, can you outline how that engagement is taking place and the assurances you may be able to provide us that you will be listened to and be able to input to that? Because obviously it is crucial that this strategy protects Welsh industrial workers given the recent stories raising concerns about the decline of the industrial sector in Wales beyond just this specific site. It's one thing that this is happening, but how are you actually inputting? We've heard so many examples of this. There's a huge amount of concern. I'm glad to hear of some of the things that you are doing proactively, but longer term, this just keeps on happening, unfortunately, and we don't want to be in a situation where we keep having to raise questions and not having that strategic direction behind it.

Diolch yn fawr, Heledd, for those particular questions. On the point on the industrial strategy, the industrial strategy engagement that we're having is happening on a number of levels, mainly led by the Cabinet Secretary for economy. At ministerial level, the Cabinet Secretary will be having the engagements with the relevant Ministers in the UK Government and also at official level as well, and will be feeding into that work. I'm very hopeful that the ambitions of our Welsh Government will be listened to in the UK industrial strategy once that is published.

I thank the Minister.

The 90-second statements are next, and the first statement will be made by Russell George.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. It gives me great pleasure today to draw the Senedd's attention to a remarkable cultural event that is taking place in Newtown library. The Heritage Hub 4 Mid Wales is proud to present the Robert Owen Utopian Legacy exhibition. Robert Owen was an industrialist, a politician and social reformer. The exhibition is not only a celebration of his life as one of Wales's most visionary sons, but a powerful reminder of his enduring global impact and his ideas. The exhibition will take place in Newtown library throughout May. On 1 May it's exactly 200 years since Robert Owen, originally from Newtown, first purchased 20,000 acres of land in New Harmony in Indiana. Robert Owen purchased the land, buying a town on this date, to create a new community. The project had a lasting effect on education, scientific research and more right across America.

Robert Owen knew that union without knowledge was useless, and knowledge without union was powerless. The High Sheriff of Powys will open this event. Attendees will connect via a live link to New Harmony, a town that welcomes over 20,000 visitors a year, drawn by Robert Owen's legacy. They'll also be joined by Caroline Dale Lewis, Owen's great, great, great granddaughter. The exhibition unites Newtown, New Lanark in Scotland, and New Harmony, three communities linked by a shared vision of education, equality, and co-operation. Robert Owen was ahead of his time in many ways, and still ahead of ours. I'd like to thank Ann Evans, the founder of the Heritage Hub 4 Mid Wales, for all her work on this project, and I'd encourage people to attend the exhibition.

Last week marked National Stalking Awareness Week, a crucial moment to shine a light on a crime that causes deep, lasting harm. Stalking is a crime of terror marked by obsessive and persistent behaviour that leaves individuals feeling unsafe, anxious, and fearful. It disproportionately impacts women and girls, with one in five women and one in 11 men experiencing stalking in their time.

In my own region of Mid and West Wales, Dyfed-Powys Police have recorded nearly 1,000 incidents, with 186 active investigations currently under way. The impact of stalking is significant, but it has been shown in research by Dr Jane Monckton-Smith that there are eight stages to homicide, and that stalking is within three of those, particularly the last three, sadly, which are escalation, a change in thinking, and the planning of the death of a woman. It's been present in 94 per cent of the deaths of women by men.

To end gender-based violence we must ensure proper funding for both healthcare and stalking support services, alongside training for front-line staff to respond effectively and compassionately. And it's up to us as well. Every single one of us needs to ensure that, if we hear about stalking, we must absolutely take it seriously. We may save a life. I pay tribute to all women who courageously talk about stalking. Let us listen, act, and take it seriously. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

On Saturday, Welshman Sean Bowen was crowned the British National Hunt champion jockey for 2024-25. Having finished runner-up for the last two years, the Pembrokeshire rider has gone one better this time, lifting the trophy after 180 wins to claim an accolade that has been many years in the making. Indeed, the achievement marks the first time a Welsh-born jockey has won the title since Bob Davies back in the early 1970s.

Sean has now been champion in all codes. He was champion pony racing jockey, champion novice rider in point-to-point, champion conditional jockey, and now, of course, National Hunt champion jockey. Indeed, it's been an outstanding year for Sean. He achieved his thousandth British winner back in February. He scored a five-timer in front of a Welsh crowd at Ffos Las earlier this month, and he won the Irish Grand National on Welsh-trained Haiti Couleurs just 10 days ago.

In fact, Bowen now spearheads a golden generation for Welsh horse racing. We have four Welsh jump jockeys in the top 10, a raft of established and, indeed, up-and-coming Welsh trainers, as well as successful Welsh racecourses, of course, at Chepstow, Ffos Las, and Bangor-on-Dee, proving that Wales really is firmly on the horse racing map.

On behalf of the Welsh Parliament and the Senedd's cross-party group on horse racing, I want to say llongyfarchiadau to Sean Bowen. And with Sean and his brother, James, along with Ben Jones, Jack Tudor, and other jump jockeys from Wales doing so well at the moment, let's hope that we don't have to wait another 50 years for a Welsh National Hunt champion jockey.

We move on now to item 6, a debate on a Member's legislative proposal, a Bill on minimum NHS dentistry staffing levels. I call on Mabon ap Gwynfor to move the motion.

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Dirprwy Lywydd. Falsehoods, deception, distortion of the facts—whatever form of words we might use for what is the opposite of the truth, they elicit different responses, don't they? The most embarrassing is when someone attempts to deceive, but instead of succeeding to do so, the listener guffaws or laughs in their face.

This is what happened last September on a national level when the Secretary of State for Wales said that, and I quote, the UK Government 'will take inspiration' from Wales on dentistry. There was a collective spit take. In a parallel reality that UK Government Ministers might reside in, it might well be the case that dentistry in Wales is the envy of others, but in the real world—the world where our constituents and families have to live—the reality is very different.

We're staring down the barrel of an immediate and urgent crisis. NHS dentistry in Wales is facing an existential crisis, and without urgent action, it is unlikely to survive for much longer. I say this not to scaremonger, but to sharpen minds on an issue that sadly hasn't received the seriousness it deserves from this Government. The facts as they are paint a truly sobering picture that there is something rotten in the state of Welsh NHS dentistry.

Between 2023 and 2024 alone, the number of general dental services contracts reduced by 36, and the number of NHS practices reduced by 17. This is hardly an isolated aberration. Over the past decade, there has been an almost 40 per cent reduction in dentistry work within the NHS. Wales also fares particularly badly when it comes to workforce morale, even by the generally low standards observed across the UK. According to a recent survey by the British Dental Association, over two fifths of Welsh respondents described their job as very or extremely stressful, compared to around a third of English respondents.

Nearly half of Welsh respondents also characterised their morale as low or very low, compared to a quarter of English respondents. Perhaps unsurprisingly, this has had a detrimental impact on recruitment, with associate recruitment levels having halved in Wales compared to UK-wide figures. Meanwhile, dental deserts are spreading at an alarming pace, with access to treatment via the NHS increasingly becoming a scarce luxury dictated by postcode lottery.

So, we've put forward the proposal today, and in this respect, we've taken inspiration from the Nurse Staffing Levels (Wales) Act 2016, which, though far from perfect, has undoubtedly had a positive impact in stabilising a similar situation that was facing NHS nursing a decade ago.

I'll be completely upfront about this. I'm not going to pretend that this proposed Bill would solve every problem, nor that a legal route is necessarily the way to go, but desperate times demand a willingness to consider radical alternatives, and now more than ever we need to break free of the irresponsible denialism and complacency that this Government has displayed towards dentistry in the NHS for many years. I therefore urge Members to support this motion as a vital first phase in a broader national conversation about how we can secure the long-term future of dentistry within the NHS, before it's too late.

Thank you for the opportunity to support this motion from Mabon ap Gwynfor. To have adequate staffing levels, we need to train more dentists, and point (d) in this motion does refer to that point, by placing a duty on Welsh ministers to develop a workforce plan to support and sustain the NHS dentistry profession in Wales. And certainly there is evidence to demonstrate that that workforce plan needs to include a new school of dentistry in Wales, so that we are training more dentists. Only 36 per cent of the population receives dental treatment via the NHS in the Betsi Cadwaladr health board area. The figure across Wales is 44 per cent, which shows that the situation is poor throughout Wales, but it's even worse in north Wales.

There are 42 community councils in Gwynedd that have passed a motion supporting my campaign to ensure a new school of dentistry for Wales in north Wales, and they've also written to you, Cabinet Secretary, to declare that support. And with some councils yet to discuss the proposal, it demonstrates how much concern there is about a lack of access to NHS services on the ground and the desire to see future dentists being trained locally. And Bangor University and Aberystwyth University, on a joint basis, have been working on a business plan to establish a school of dentistry, and that is excellent news. It's wonderful to see this collaboration between universities in the west, and it's time for the Government to show its commitment to the project.

I've arranged a seminar here in the Senedd to present the report, 'Filling the Gaps'. Some of you will remember that we have discussed this in the Senedd previously. The intention of the seminar is to present this report to fellow Members, and there is a warm welcome to all Members to join us on 13 May, with a particularly warm welcome to you, Cabinet Secretary, to join us.

I have to say, this is a welcome opportunity to debate the future of dentistry here in Wales. I know the Government is concerned about this, and so it should be, because we now have a three-tier service, which increasingly sees patients being squeezed out of NHS care and having to opt to either pay privately or, of course, alternatively, to go without care completely.

Now, the Government has introduced new contracts and guidelines to try to treat more patients, namely those who have been without dental cover via the NHS contracts, and this, at first glance, I have to say, is to be commended. However, the unintended consequences of doing so has been to force more and more dentists to give up their NHS contracts, and as a consequence, then, of course, it makes the matter significantly worse for patients across Wales.

Just in my region of North Wales, six dental practices have handed back their NHS contracts in the past six months, and I'm afraid that the trend shows no sign of abating. Last month, Rhos Dental Practice, in Rhosllanerchrugog near Wrexham, announced to patients that Government changes, aimed at tackling the dental crisis, meant that it was now only able to offer two-year check-ups under the NHS, with no guarantee that patients would see a local dentist. And as a result, dentists there felt that that would mean patients missing out on preventative treatment, and that that would result in more extensive work being needed. So, they've now introduced a new service that will cost £19.15 a month—that's £230 a year—for patients who wish to have that service. So, once again, this Labour Government's actions are actually pushing more people into having to pay for basic dental care, even within an NHS practice.

Now, the BDA, on behalf of dentists, has written to the First Minister asking her to correct the record after misleading statements were made in the Committee for the Scrutiny of the First Minister. And that's the sort of thing that really undermines any trust and transparency that you would wish to see when you're looking for negotiations that are so important to build back the service.

So, we need to see a solution where everybody in Wales has a reasonable access to NHS dentists. After all, not everyone can afford to pay for treatment, and health, including oral health, of course, is meant to be free at the point of delivery. So, the proposal in front of us today would certainly help ensure that everybody in Wales has that access to an NHS dental service, which is why I support the legislative proposal, and I very much hope that other Members will do so as well.

And I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care, Jeremy Miles.

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. Like most areas of primary care, dentistry in the NHS in Wales operates under an independent contractor model. This has been the system since 1948. Unlike the situation in hospitals, therefore, where the health service employs healthcare professionals directly—and where we have legislated, as Mabon ap Gwynfor mentioned, for minimum nurse staffing levels—the vast majority of NHS dentists in Wales are businesses. The health boards contract and commission dental services from those based on population need, and it's a duty, therefore, on the contract holders to provide services within their business model.

This model gives them the freedom to operate in the way that is most appropriate for their practices and the population that they serve. However, they are accountable for their own business risks and do ensure that their staffing levels are adequate to meet the needs of their contract. The independent nature of this arrangement is crucially important for the profession. Safeguarding measures are in place, and regulations that underpin the current contract make it a requirement for contract holders to ensure that there is an adequate number of staff available to deliver against the contract, and to make provision for financial sanctions if they fail to do so.

NHS dentistry in Wales is facing challenges—in Wales and across the UK as a whole. It's not an absence of legislation on staffing levels in practices that accounts for this, neither is it the independent contractor model itself. The current contract, the unit of dental activity, which has been in place for almost 20 years, is not now working for the majority of professional dental workers, and neither is it working for the public.

We've taken a series of important steps, Dirprwy Lywydd, to change the contract, as Llyr Gruffydd referred to, and I welcome his commendation of those changes, as we've emerged from the pandemic, to enable more people to be seen by an NHS dentist. We've successfully embedded the principles of prudent healthcare, and have supported access for new patients, giving care to those who really need it. But to improve NHS dentistry, and to improve access to NHS dentistry, we must deliver a new general dental services contract. This, in fact, is the single most important thing that we can do to address the problems that Members have outlined today. The lessons learnt from years of reform and pilots have provided the foundation for the tripartite negotiations and the development of the new contract. The Welsh Government, the NHS, and the BDA have worked together to develop this new model.

The proposed changes seek to challenge inefficiencies and inequalities that sit at the core of the NHS dental service. We've sought to streamline processes, enhance accountability, and to ensure that resources are allocated more fairly and effectively. By focusing on these areas, we can create a more resilient and a more responsive dental health system that better meets the needs of the population and finally brings NHS dental services into the twenty-first century. We believe that the new contract is fairer for patients and more attractive to dentists. The consultation on the proposed new contract is now live. The public and the dental profession have an important opportunity to learn more about and help shape these once-in-a-generation reforms.

I'll close my contribution this afternoon by saying a few words more broadly about the dental workforce, in its role in dental reform. We continue to review and improve dental workforce recruitment, retention and training. However, it is equally important to empower and upskill the wider dental team. We have a strategic workforce plan for primary care, which includes specific actions for developing all members of the dental team. More work is under way in relation to that plan. By creating an agile workforce, where all members of the team are able to deliver care effectively and work, crucially, at the top of their licence, we can spread the workload across the dental team and alleviate the pressure on dentists. This approach not only improves patient outcomes but also supports the overall goal of creating a more efficient and equitable dental care system. For this approach to work, we have to train more dental therapists and hygienists. Over the course of this Senedd term, we have doubled the number of dental therapy places available at Cardiff University, we've created a new dental hygiene training programme at Bangor University, and have also committed to developing a dental therapy programme at Bangor University.

Llywydd, we have enough dentists in Wales, but we need more of them to commit more of their time to NHS dental provision. A fairer, more attractive contract, which enables the full use of the entire dental team, is the way to achieve this. 

I call on Mabon ap Gwynfor to respond to the debate.

Thank you very much for the replies to this debate, and the contributions. The initial point, I think, that needs to be made is that we have to accept that there is a crisis within the dental service. I’ve been involved in politics for long enough to understand what spin is, and to understand when parties in power want to safeguard their reputations. And I also understand why opposition parties tend to dramatise things on occasion. But politics isn’t a game of cat and mouse, and, certainly, people’s health and well-being isn’t a game of cat and mouse. So, this isn’t child’s play here when I've used the terms that I have today, talking about a crisis, and the fact that, if there aren’t fundamental changes, we won’t see dental services, NHS services, in the near future. As I mentioned, there's almost 40 per cent less dental work done on the NHS today, and it’s people who are suffering, and it’s the poorer people who are suffering more than anybody else. So, I’d expect the Labour Party and the Labour Government to take that seriously.

I’m grateful to Llyr for his contribution, mentioning very clearly that there is a three-tier system here, and going back to that point that it’s those people who are poorest, who have the least ability to pay, who are suffering most. The Cabinet Secretary listed what isn’t the basis for this crisis, saying that this, that or the other is not the basis of the crisis, but what we didn’t hear was a real solution. Yes, we heard that there is a new contract in the pipeline, and the Cabinet Secretary said that this new contract is being drafted jointly with the BDA, as we heard. But the BDA themselves have said that they've been locked out of the discussions since the autumn, and they don’t know what is in this new recommendation. So, it will be very interesting to see the BDA response to the debate in this case. And I haven’t been convinced that stakeholders have been able to play a full part in discussing these contracts, according to the evidence given to us by some of those stakeholders.

We need a solution, therefore. And Siân Gwenllian spoke about her excellent campaign to establish a school of dentistry in Bangor. That will certainly be a part of a solution to this crisis in dentistry that we currently have.

At the root of these problems is the fact that the Government’s approach to contract reform, as well as its failure to uphold in practice its own social partnership principles while overseeing the relevant negotiations, has inherently undermined the appeal of working within the NHS for dentists. As the BDA rightly emphasised in their most recent correspondence, the issue isn’t that Wales has a shortage of dentists, as we’ve heard, it's that fewer and fewer see working within the NHS as attractive or financially viable. This is the inevitable consequence of opening the door to privatisation while failing to provide the NHS with the requisite resource to remain competitive. As I’ve mentioned many times, when it comes to Labour’s record on health, you can’t expect to build stable foundations for the NHS on good intentions alone.

The purpose, therefore, of this Bill is to enshrine into law the fundamental principle that dentistry shouldn’t be a 'nice to have', or an optional extra, where the quality of care is determined by one’s personal finances, but, rather, should be a quintessential public service to which everyone has a right to access. We’d seek to achieve this by establishing minimum safe staffing levels for NHS dentists, based on the oral health needs of the population, and place duties on health boards to undertake reasonable steps towards maintaining these levels. The Bill would also place duties on the Welsh Government to develop a workforce plan to support this work, and to provide strategic leadership on realising the right of all Welsh citizens to access NHS dental services. So, if you believe that there’s a crisis and we need to do something about it, then I hope you support my proposal today. Diolch yn fawr iawn, Llywydd.

The proposal is to note the proposal. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes, there is objection. Therefore, we will defer voting on this item until voting time later on. 

Item 7 is next, the debate on the Standards of Conduct Committee report: 'Twentieth report to the Sixth Senedd under Standing Order 22.9'. And I call on the Chair of the committee to move the motion—Hannah Blythyn. 

Thank you, Llywydd. As the Chair of the Standards of Conduct Committee, I formally move the motion.

The committee considered the report from the acting commissioner for standards in relation to a complaint made against Siân Gwenllian MS regarding the sharing of confidential information. The Standards of Conduct Committee gave the acting commissioner’s report careful consideration, and our report sets out that, although the Member is considered to have breached the code of conduct, we do not consider that any further action is warranted. The facts relating to the complaint, and the committee’s reasons for its recommendation, are set out in full in the committee’s report.

I'd like to take this opportunity to remind Members of the specific need to respect confidential markings on documents as well as the importance of maintaining confidentiality when it comes to the complaints process more generally. Maintaining the integrity of the process is crucial to ensure that people feel confident in coming forward to make complaints. However, the committee agreed with the acting commissioner that there is a need for balance between confidentiality and the ability of a Member to defend themselves against allegations, particularly once a complaint process is complete. We will consider the approach to confidentiality and the current limitations on what Members can say as part of our further work programme. 

The motion tabled invites the Senedd to endorse the committee's recommendations. Diolch.

The code of conduct must be changed. That is clear. As the code currently stands, Senedd Members have no right to defend their reputations by sharing relevant information when that reputation is maligned. When the standards commissioner dismisses completely unfounded allegations, the code prevents Members from defending themselves, even if those same allegations are at risk of resurfacing. Clearly, that situation needs to change. That is morally unacceptable.

According to the report by Dr Melissa McCullough, the acting standards commissioner, I was, and I quote, defending myself 'reasonably'. She also makes these points in part 6 of her report—and I encourage everyone to read the report itself, as well as the committee report; it's a very fair report. This is what she says in part 6.1:

'Confidentiality within the complaints process is essential and serves a legitimate purpose. However, it must be proportionately balanced in respect of Article 10 of the European Convention on Human Rights, which protects the right to freedom of expression.'

The acting commissioner goes on to say this:

'This case highlights the fact that Members face a disadvantage in terms of freedom of expression compared to complainants who are not Members.... Consequently, Members can find themselves obligated by their Code to remain silent in response to complainant-led public allegations, some of which may have already been assessed and deemed inadmissible by the Commissioner, as in this case.'

I had two options, therefore, namely to remain quiet, or to breach the code. The commissioner, therefore, has recommended in section 8.1 of her report that: 

'Further consideration of Article 10 in relation to rules on confidentiality may assist in easing the inequity that currently exists between Members and complainants who are not Members. I believe that due to this inequity, the Article 10 position merits further ethical and legal consideration.'

I'm pleased to see that the standards committee has come to the same conclusion, and, in section 4.32 of their report, they note with interest the acting commissioner's comments on the need to strike a balance between confidentiality and the safeguards bestowed by article 10.

The standards committee report states that they agree that further consideration needs to be given to this. 

'The Committee believes that a review of the confidentiality provisions within the Code—in particular how they align with Article 10 rights—could pave the way for ensuring a greater level of transparency in the standards process.'

The committee, according to its report, 

'will consider the implications of Rule 15 in relation to the Complaints process as part of its ongoing work'.

I would urge the committee today to complete this work soon, so that the code can be reformed. We must seek a way to strike the right balance between ensuring that complainants feel confident in coming forward and that their confidentiality is protected, whilst also upholding the right of the individual, and, in this case, the right of the Member of the Senedd, to defend their reputation. In today’s climate, it's easy to direct blame at politicians, and, certainly, that does need to be done on occasion when appropriate, but not at the expense of fundamental human rights. Thank you. 

The committee Chair to reply. 

Diolch, Llywydd. Can I thank the Member for her contribution today and for being here in the Siambr? That's as it should be when cases such as this are being discussed and debated. I would share what the Member says in terms of encouraging Members to read the report in full and to fully understand why the committee reached its conclusion in this respect and the work we're doing further.

The committee is absolutely committed to doing what we can to strengthen the processes in place ahead of the next Senedd elections, that not only gives that confidence in the system for anybody coming forward, but that added transparency in our politics, in our institution and in our processes as well. As part of this, as we said in the initial report and in my remarks, we're very much committed to addressing those issues that have been raised in this report and actually making sure how we can better strike that balance, like you say, to have confidence in the system so that people do not feel prevented from coming forward, but that, actually, Members also have that added balance too in those circumstances, around how we strike that balance on transparency as well. Diolch.
 

The proposal is to note the committee's report. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed. 

We will now move to the debate on the Health and Social Care Committee report, 'Supporting people with chronic conditions', and Lesley Griffiths is to move the motion. As I am unfamiliar with Members' positioning at the moment, I hadn't realised that Lesley Griffiths isn't in the Chamber at the moment. And therefore, we have two remaining debates this afternoon: one on the committee report, and the other is the Welsh Conservatives debate. And I don't believe that we can move to that debate either, because of attendance in the Chamber at this point.

So, I will call a five-minute break, so that we can gather everyone together. We are running ahead of schedule this afternoon, and we are perhaps not familiar with our new situation in this Chamber, so we will take a break of five minutes. 

We will reconvene and move to our next item, which is item 8, the debate on the Health and Social Care Committee report, 'Supporting people with chronic conditions'. To move the motion, Lesley Griffiths, a member of the committee. 

I'm very pleased to open the debate on this very important inquiry. I wish to thank the committee clerks and team, along with all of those who gave us evidence. 

The term 'chronic conditions' covers a broad range of health conditions, which often cannot be cured but can be managed with the right support and treatment. An increasing number of people are living with two or more chronic conditions. People living in disadvantaged areas are more likely to be living with multiple chronic conditions, and those who live in the most deprived areas have a shorter life expectancy and spend less of their life in good health. Most recent figures show that 46 per cent of adults in Wales are living with chronic or long-term conditions, with 20 per cent experiencing two or more long-term conditions. This number is predicted to rise, and is likely to pose a significant and increasing challenge for health and care services in Wales.

The Welsh Government projects that, by 2038, almost one in five people in Wales will be aged 70 or over. Age is a key risk factor for a number of chronic conditions, like dementia and some cancers, which makes it likely that we will see an increase in their prevalence. However, people of any age can have a chronic condition. Whilst research has identified that the likelihood of living with multiple conditions increases with age, the number of people under 65 with more than two conditions is higher than the number aged 65 and over. Thirty per cent of people with four or more chronic conditions are under 65 years of age.

Due to the complexity of the issues and the wide range of chronic conditions people may experience, we began our inquiry by asking stakeholders to help us to identify the key themes and issues we should focus on. We used this information to shape our final terms of reference. We were also fortunate to be assisted in our inquiry work by people living with chronic conditions who were keen to share their experiences, and I would like to put on record our thanks to them. Our report makes 21 recommendations to the Cabinet Secretary. In the time available to me this afternoon, I will focus on a small number of these, although I know other committee members will wish to cover some of the other recommendations in their contributions.

I want to start with person-centred care, which is recommendations 1 to 4. And whilst the Welsh Government has identified the importance of a person-centred approach in its long-term plan for health and care services, it is very clear from the evidence we heard, both from healthcare professionals and people living with long-term conditions, that this is not being implemented consistently, and certainly not at the scale and pace required. A participant in one of our focus groups told us that decisions aren't being made with patients in mind; they are in absolute breach of all the duties, all the principles, all the values that they are supposed to be operating on, and the patients are not put at the centre.

We heard that health and care services have developed a focus on treating a single condition and, as a result, those living with multiple conditions can have multiple interactions with healthcare professionals, who fail to see the overall picture of their health. We believe that a renewed focus is needed on delivering services that are designed around the patient and not around their condition. These services should recognise that the individual is an expert in their own condition, and should provide different types of care, support and treatment in a co-ordinated way that meets their needs and supports them in managing their own health and care.

We recommended the Welsh Government should work with health boards to explore reorientating services to wrap around patients living with chronic conditions, providing one-stop-shop clinics that combine different services and medical professionals in one place. This recommendation was rejected. In his response, the Cabinet Secretary said it is a long-held aim of the Welsh Government for people to access most of the care they need to manage their health and well-being at or close to home, with people only going to a hospital when this is the right thing for their specific needs. We support the Welsh Government’s ambition to keep care local and our recommendation was certainly not advocating greater reliance on secondary care, rather that services should be provided in a more holistic, less fragmented way. With that in mind, we urge the Cabinet Secretary to reconsider his response to this recommendation, particularly given the importance our witnesses placed on this.

We heard from the Chief Medical Officer for Wales that people like to have an individual care plan. He believed this was something they benefit from, which helps to co-ordinate care around the patient. It is disappointing therefore that the Welsh Government rejected our call to review as a matter of urgency the use of individual care plans for patients with chronic conditions, particularly given the Welsh Government’s commitment that people living with chronic conditions could have an individual care plan if they wanted one, and the evidence that we received that while there are pockets of good practice in their provision, unfortunately, this is inconsistent across Wales.

Turning to recommendations 5 to 10 on interaction with healthcare professionals, we clearly heard from stakeholders that having a good relationship with their GPs is an important part of helping people to manage their own conditions. They want someone who knows their background and family circumstances as well as their medical history. However, people who took part in interviews with our citizen engagement team talked about not being listened to, or being dismissed by healthcare professionals. One told us,

'I went through seven or eight years of doctors turning me away, calling me dramatic and saying I was attention seeking. That was very damaging for my physical or mental health.'

Others spoke about the need for empathy and a better understanding when addressing people with chronic conditions. Engaging with medical professionals can be challenging and even traumatising for some people, therefore it is important that patients feel their concerns are being taken seriously. This was recognised by GPs who told us they were concerned about their ability to provide adequate care in the short time they get to see a patient. Therefore, I’d very much welcome the Cabinet Secretary’s commitment to work with the relevant professional bodies and Health Education and Improvement Wales to ensure that continuing medical education opportunities include the perspectives and experiences of patients living with chronic conditions and promote empathetic care.

Turning to recommendation 10, I find it surprising that the Cabinet Secretary is not in a position to provide an update on the development of the secondary care electronic health record by Digital Health and Care Wales, and has therefore rejected this recommendation.

Turning to recommendations 13 to 17 regarding mental health, the need to improve mental health support for people with chronic conditions has been a consistent theme of the evidence we heard. Evidence suggests that at least 30 per cent of all people with a chronic condition also have a mental health problem. The Centre for Mental Health describes the devastating impact that living with a chronic condition can have on mental health. Lack of parity between mental and physical health is a long-standing issue. However, for people living with a chronic condition, the impact on their mental health means there is a need for much greater integration of services.

We were surprised to learn that for many people living with a long-term physical condition, it is not the standard procedure for mental health support to be clearly signposted at the point of diagnosis. Coming to terms with being diagnosed with a long-term condition and how that will impact on your way of life is bound to have a profound effect. Therefore, I welcome the Cabinet Secretary’s acceptance of our recommendation that mental health support should be signposted for all at diagnosis with a chronic condition, and look forward to receiving the annual updates on progress against the mental health and well-being strategy promised in his response.

Finally, I’d like to talk about prevention. While our report’s focused on the support provided to people currently living with chronic conditions, the long-term focus must be on prevention, both to stop chronic conditions developing and to slow their progression. It is clear that the NHS in Wales is already struggling to cope with the demands being made of it. The predicted increase in the numbers of people living with chronic conditions will only increase this demand. Therefore, a shift towards prevention is essential to ensure the long-term sustainability of the health and care service. While Welsh Government health policy recognises the necessity of this shift, we believe that a combination of factors, including lengthy waiting times and a lack of time and resources, have meant that, in reality, preventive work is not often a priority, and the Welsh Government must do more to address this. Diolch yn fawr.

Llywydd, I'm pleased to take part in this debate today about an issue that cuts to the very core of what the Welsh NHS should be about, supporting people, not just when they're ill, but every day when they live with a chronic condition. The Health and Social Care Committee's report lays bare the scale of the challenge. Nearly half of adults in Wales live with a long-term illness. One in five have multiple chronic conditions, and 30 per cent of those with four or more are under the age of 65. The NHS is not prepared for it, and what is worse, the system as it stands is designed for a different world. Far too many people in Wales are shuffled between appointments with no joined-up plan, no co-ordination and no consistency. One patient told the committee they were treated like a collection of problems rather than a person with a life. This isn't care, that's just general administration.

Now let's talk about the Welsh Government's response to the committee. We are told that the 35 refreshed actions in 'Healthy Weight: Healthy Wales' will deliver an effective system fit for the future. But they span to 2028, and not a single concrete milestone has been offered to show how these actions will lead to better care now. Monitoring is promised, but timelines do matter, especially to people that are already struggling.

The Government accepts in principle the committee's first recommendation to deliver person-centred care. Yet, on the very next page, it rejects the committee's suggestion of a one-stop-shop clinic to support patients with complex and multiple conditions. Instead, we're told that GPs are already providing that holistic care. Let me be clear, GPs are crucial, but they cannot do everything. Community capacity is stretched thin, and digital signposting cannot replace face-to-face care that's tailored and integrated. Saying that GPs can manage is not the same as investing in real multidisciplinary clinics, where specialists can all work together around the patient.

On care plans, I think this is another missed opportunity. The committee recommended a national review to ensure that every eligible individual is offered a care plan. The Government said 'no'. Instead, a letter from the chief medical officer is meant to remind health boards about best practice. Now, with respect to the Minister, that's not leadership, that's bureaucracy. We need to see actual leadership, probably, not passing it down to the chief medical officer.

And while we're at it, let's look at workforce planning. The Government accepts the recommendation to develop a strategy for specialist nurses in principle, yet it admits that the number of specialist nurses in Wales isn't even centrally recorded. So, how can we plan, invest and reform without even knowing where the gaps are in the system?

As Lesley Griffiths talked about, mental health was one of the most urgent aspects of the report, but it is treated with a mix of good intentions and long timelines from the Government. We're told that new strategies are on the way, that care pathways will one day include mental health signposting, and that mental health is already part of the medical curriculum. But with nearly 60 per cent of chronic obstructive pulmonary disease patients reporting mental health distress, only 20 per cent of those are getting help. These aren't problems for another strategy; they're problems for today and something that we really need to address.

The committee also called for shared electronic health records. I think that's a critical tool for continuity of care. The Government rejected this recommendation too, citing complexity. But after years of promising integrated digital healthcare, the best thing we're told they can do is pilots in two health boards. This isn't transformation, this is hesitation and it's a lack of leadership, and I do wonder if this response was done before the Cabinet Secretary spoke yesterday.

On social prescribing, the Government also said there's a national framework in place, but even that admission was followed by an acknowledgement that half the framework is still under development and there's no clear timeline for consistent access across Wales. A framework is not enough if patients don't have services to be prescribed into.

And on prevention, we hear it again, don't we? The right words about investment in Flying Start, 'Healthy Weight: Healthy Wales', anti-smoking, but let's be honest, this doesn't match the sheer scale of the challenge: a 40 per cent rise in diabetes; an ageing population with overlapping conditions; the continued gap in our health outcomes for the most disadvantaged, and the Government don’t seem to be tackling that. And when we called for better use of pilots, better evaluation, better sharing of good practice, what was the response? ‘Oh, that’s not the role of the regional partnership boards to do that.’ I then asked the Cabinet Secretary, ‘Whose role is it?’ The Government say the NHS Wales Executive can support service improvement, but no-one seems to be directly responsible for the scaling of what works across the Government.

So, Llywydd, let me just say it plainly to the Government that too much of their response today reads like a system defending itself, not reforming itself. Yes, there are frameworks, yes, there are strategies, but I don’t see the urgency. Where is the leadership that says that we will not allow chronic conditions to remain patchy and inconsistent, and that the care that people need to receive needs to get better? The committee, I believe, has done its job: the evidence is there, the recommendations are reasonable, cost-effective and focused on outcomes. Now, I think Government must review its response to us and look at how it’s going to actually improve people’s lives across Wales. It’s time for a plan and it’s time for delivery, because for the people of Wales living with pain, fatigue and fear, and often in silence, this isn’t about frameworks, it’s about their dignity, their independence and their right to live well within their communities. Diolch, Llywydd.

This inquiry was thorough and was held almost a year ago now, when the current First Minister was Cabinet Secretary for health. So, it will be interesting to hear the current Cabinet Secretary's response to the inquiry.

One thing that the inquiry highlighted from the outset was that for a number of people in Wales—indeed, almost half of the population, if truth be told—it’s not a matter of having occasional contact with a GP or dentist, that’s not what their relationship with the health service is, rather, it’s a long-established, consistent and regular relationship, as they live with conditions that impact the quality of their lives and their loved ones.

Unfortunately, as we heard during the inquiry, the Government's ambition of managing chronic conditions by focusing on the individual is very different to the patient experience, and some of the barriers to this happening are very concerningly common. They are firefighting in the short term at the expense of developing a longer term strategy. There is silo working, which prevents them from developing more holistic care models. There are clear gaps in the workforce. There is an aim to share and implement good practice at a national level, but a failure to deliver that. There are great failings in the consistency, reliability and accessibility of data, and the digital agenda is years behind where it should be.

All of these are fundamental problems that emerge time and time again across the health service, and this Government is falling short of putting this right as things currently stand.

This Government's record of underinvestment in primary care capacity over the past decade and a half, which has left Wales over 500 GPs short of the OECD average and access to appointments now becoming more of a luxury than an inalienable right, has had particularly detrimental implications in the context of managing chronic conditions. With a diminishing cohort of GPs having to deal with increasingly unsustainable workloads, the inevitable consequence is less time being devoted to nurturing that crucial patient relationship. It is for this reason that Plaid Cymru has said that we would commit to recruiting 500 additional GPs over the next two Senedd terms and institute governance reforms to enhance the status of the sector. But in the meantime, I'd urge the Government to use what time is left of this current term to redouble efforts to support the primary care sector.

A good place to start would be to ease the administrative burden of the referrals process by establishing an executive triage service, giving GPs some much-needed breathing room to prioritise patient contact. Allied health professionals also have a key part to play in this arena, and they must therefore be properly recognised as integral parts of the health and social care workforce, rather than simply nice-to-haves.

As well as expanding capacity, prioritising preventative measures and early intervention is clearly key. In this respect, the report rightly emphasises the need to enable the system to be more responsive to multimorbidities. As such, I'd urge the Government to consider mandating whole-body check-ups as a default at GP surgery appointments, so that hitherto undiagnosed conditions can be quickly identified and escalated.

Empowering patients to assume greater control over their healthcare can also reinforce the effectiveness of the preventative agenda, but they currently lack the tools to do so. This is where the hollowness of the Government's claims to be modernising the health service are truly laid bare. I've spoken before about the fact that the roll-out of telemedicine in primary caring settings in Wales has been especially protracted compared to England. We've also witnessed unfortunate delays in the implementation of the NHS Wales app, which, despite having potential to improve patient engagement, remains underpowered in terms of its practical functionality. I'd therefore urge the Government to conduct an audit of Digital Health and Care Wales to ascertain whether it has sufficient resources and expertise to fulfil its role as the delivery arm of the digital agenda. Claiming that joining up digital platforms is too complex flies in the face of evidence not only from places like Estonia, but also from London, Manchester and Ireland—another small nation that is now rolling out this digital agenda.

Finally, boosting health literacy has an important role to play here too. The Adre scheme, for example, which supports care home residents to self-manage their medication, has proven benefits in mitigating the escalation of chronic conditions. I'd be grateful for an update, at some point, from the Cabinet Secretary as to whether the adoption of this scheme is under active consideration. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

I want to congratulate the Health and Social Care Committee, because this report has had a huge impact in the sense that there's been huge numbers of voluntary and community organisations who've been commenting on and making suggestions for how we go forward on this. I'm appalled, but not surprised, by the 40 per cent increase in diabetes that James has already referred to. I'm not surprised because, sadly, we haven't made any of the necessary changes to people's diet to prevent them getting diabetes, which is the main driver of this terrible type 2 diabetes.

I'm even more shocked that there is so little intervention amongst health professionals at the pre-diabetes stage, and, indeed, on the day of diagnosis of type 2 diabetes, to reverse that condition, because that is perfectly possible and it's much easier to do at the beginning of the stages than it is to do in subsequent months and years. It is that very shock of the diagnosis that forces people to think, 'Perhaps I need to change my behaviour.' Indeed, what happens in good practices—. And I have seen some pockets of good practice—one of them I heard about was from a practice manager at a GP practice in Amlwch, who was clearly leading the cause on this one—but they are rare. And going around my GP practices, I'm not hearing, 'Of course, we have a preventative programme for diabetes as soon as that blood test comes through.'

If I can quickly interrupt, I'm one of those people. I got my type 2 diagnosis last year, and my first tests were negative because I changed my lifestyle. You can never remove it; you've always got it for life. All you can do is manage it and hopefully stay in remission. So, it was just a comment on that basis.

That's an excellent comment. Two members of my own family have recently had the same experience as you, in the sense that they were given the flashlight of warning, and they too will have to manage what they eat for the rest of their lives if they don't want to get type 2 diabetes. It is a horrific condition and it requires a whole-family conversation.

In the best practices, you bring the whole family in and you say, 'Your loved one has got this problem, and you need to change the way that you all live your lives in terms of what you eat.' There's no use having junk food being consumed at one end of the table while the other person is eating what they would consider rabbit food. The whole family has got to get engaged in this, and they will want to get engaged with it if it's explained to them, and that's what needs to happen. It doesn't happen consistently. It such a prevalent disease, so I'll be very interested to hear what the Cabinet Secretary has got to say about how we change that.

Secondly, I attended recently a chronic wound care project that really was innovative and sector leading. It's being delivered out of the Llandaff campus of Cardiff Metropolitan University, where they've got clinics set up as part of the teaching arrangements that all their medical and allied health students are going through. There I met a huge number of my constituents who were benefitting not just from the dieticians, the district nurses, and indeed the head of the medical faculty there, but also the mental health psychologists. The conversation that took place around the table—. Because a lot of people who have chronic wounds become extremely isolated and never get to see anybody.

In fact, I visited with a district nurse recently a constituent of mine who has spent the last year in bed because of a chronic wound. He does have family who live locally, thank goodness, but he literally has not—. He said, ‘I've counted every single dot on the wallpaper’, because he's just not making progress, and he's not having enough of the physiotherapy to enable his leg to be strengthened so he can get out again. He used to have a really active life.

These people are being brought in by the VEST transport that we have in Cardiff, where the drivers are mainly volunteers, but it enables people who obviously have serious mobility problems to get out. This is their one social engagement of the week. So it's a massively important project, both for getting multidisciplinary support for what is a complex medical condition, i.e. chronic wounds, but also to get the social benefit of raising their mental health and giving people hope that there is the rest of their life ahead of them.

I see that I've run out of time, Presiding Officer, so I'll sit down. Thank you.

The Cabinet Secretary now to contribute to the debate—Jeremy Miles.

Diolch, Llywydd. I'd like to thank everyone who has given evidence to this inquiry, and I'm pleased to accept the majority of the committee's recommendations. I've set out my more detailed response to those recommendations in my written reply to the committee. This afternoon, I'd like to focus on the thrust of the committee's inquiry, and I will pick up on some of the points that Members have made in relation to the Welsh Government's response.

As our population ages and we become better at managing diseases, we have inevitably seen a rise in the number of people living with a long-term condition, or indeed multiple long-term conditions. This is a symptom of our being able to treat previously untreatable diseases and to support people to live into their old age. But it does come at the cost of increased demand on the NHS, and, as the committee found, increasing complexity in the care and services the NHS needs to deliver, and, for those people with multiple long-term conditions, more years of ill health, often in their older age.

Our vision for the NHS is one that prioritises the development and capacity of primary and community care with better integration with social care. General practice is the bedrock of the NHS. For the majority of us, it is where we will have most interaction with the NHS, particularly for people with long-term conditions. But where people need access to hospital-based care services, these need to be faster and more convenient.

Through better integration of primary and secondary care services, we hope to make this as imperceptible as possible to the individual. With increasingly integrated records and digital systems, and by empowering people through the development of the NHS Wales app, which the Minister for Mental Health and Well-being will be formally launching in the coming weeks, we've been making sustained investments in primary and community services, and we'll be going further over the coming 12 months to re-orientate services more towards primary care and to harness the potential for preventative approaches, which several Members have spoken about.

Shifting services into primary and community settings is at the heart of how we need to transform healthcare for the future. We know that we need to improve co-ordination and continuity of care, as Members have spoken about today, because it's good for people, especially those with long-term conditions, and it's also good for primary care and, indeed, for the secondary care system. 

In relation to the recommendation for a review of individual care plans, I've taken the decision that instead of a review, we will take action. The Government is clear in its expectations in relation to the issuing of care plans, and I've asked the chief nursing officer and the chief medical officer to remind health boards of those expectations and to write to them in that vein. In addition, we'll shortly be launching a new initiative to support GPs to provide continuity of care, and we've heard today—

There's an intervention request on you, Minister, from Altaf Hussain. Are you accepting it?

Certainly, yes. 

Cabinet Secretary, are you coming up with a list of these chronic conditions?

I'm sorry, I didn't quite catch that.

Are you coming up with a list of these chronic conditions? Because it's a good term, but we need to know what these chronic conditions you're addressing are.

The committee cast a wide net in relation to chronic conditions, as it's perfectly entitled to do, and I think that is a reasonable approach. I think what I was describing in my contribution earlier is that we anticipate an increase in the number of people living with those conditions, and more than one condition, which is why the point made in the debate so far about the fragmentation of care is important.

We will, as I was saying, be launching a new initiative shortly to support GPs to provide continuity of care, adopting a quality improvement approach. We will start with GPs identifying the most vulnerable patients who would benefit from seeing the same healthcare professional continuously. We'll build on this over time so that it becomes, in time, a routine expectation for everyone. This will improve outcomes for people with chronic conditions and help keep people well at home.

A service more focused on prevention—and we've heard the benefits of that today—and on providing more care in the community is one that also puts the patient at the heart of the service as a partner in managing their physical and mental health. We are also using the NHS executive to identify and test new service models and to scale those projects or programmes that are successful to the rest of Wales. The first phase of this will be the provision of a universal menu of diagnostic tests that will be available in the local community.

We're supporting leadership skills in the NHS by targeting training in critical areas through NHS skills academies, which will address some of the points made in the committee's reflections. We are working on new service models, such as breathlessness hubs and women's health hubs. Pathfinder women's health hubs will be available in every health board area by next March. These are some of the actions we'll be taking forward to support the NHS to deliver more joined-up care.

There was a discussion in the committee's report and in the debate today about the role of technology. We are accelerating the implementation of key digital enablers, including e-prescribing and electronic health and care record systems. I should at this point clarify that the reason for our response to recommendation 10 in the form that it was is that DHCW is not itself developing a secondary care electronic health record. The Welsh Government is leading on proposals to engage a third party to develop an outline business case for the EHR. We will, of course, be happy to keep the committee up to date in relation to those developments. I suggest that we provide a report to the committee in the second half of this year on that development.

In addition to that, we have functionality of NHS apps and system improvements such as Consultant Connect and the Welsh patient referral system to enhance collaboration and communication between GPs and secondary care. We are focusing on prevention and building community capacity in the planning framework, which I published at the end of last year in relation to 2025-28.

Llywydd, by strengthening our general practice and community services, and with the right resources, we aim to provide comprehensive and person-centred care for all. Of course, we must do better for those with multiple chronic conditions in the way the committee has pointed out, but the transformation of our health and care system is a journey towards more primary and secondary prevention, so that we prevent or delay the onset of ill health and need less treatment in the longer term, in the way that Jenny Rathbone pointed out in her contribution.

Finally, I've announced in the last few weeks a commitment to redouble our efforts to tackle the wider determinants of physical and mental ill health, building on the work we have seen in Gwent, and making Wales a Marmot nation. We must challenge and inspire ourselves and the system, leading and delivering the transformation that our healthcare system needs in order to tackle chronic conditions.

Lesley Griffiths now to reply to the debate on behalf of the Health and Social Care Committee.

Diolch, Llywydd. I would like to begin by thanking colleagues for their contributions. I think what came out from the three colleagues who spoke ahead of the Cabinet Secretary is the emphasis on the scale of the problem that we are facing here in Wales, and the need to take action now, both to support individuals who do have chronic conditions, but also to support our health and social care services.

James Evans spoke about the importance of implementing strategies, particularly the mental health strategy, and we're very much looking forward to the announcements coming from the Minister for Mental Health and Well-being in the coming weeks. Mabon ap Gwynfor made a very important point about people's relationships with their health professionals, particularly GPs, so it was very good to hear the Cabinet Secretary talk about continuity, because there can be nothing worse for a patient than going to see their GP and having to relay the same story over and over again, or to go and see any health professional and have to do that. Technology is incredibly important, so it's really good to hear the Cabinet Secretary talk about what is being taken forward. But we do know the health service is a bit behind with this, and we really need to make sure that that roll-out continues.

Jenny Rathbone spoke about diabetes in particular, and it is certainly the case that we are seeing an incredible increase. The role of preventative medicine is so important in all chronic conditions, but I think we all know somebody with diabetes, and, indeed, we heard from our colleague around that. But the impact on an individual to be able to lead a good life when they have a chronic condition—it's so important that that's recognised. You use the word 'hope', and I think that it's so important that patients understand that.

Turning to the Cabinet Secretary's remarks, I'm very pleased that you were able to give a positive response to so many recommendations, but it was particularly pleasing to hear, when I spoke in my opening remarks, about the need for a review of individual care plans, that you're going one step further and that you will be taking action in relation to that. So, I know my colleagues on the committee will be very pleased to see that happening.

I would like to thank everyone who gave us evidence. To hear from people who are suffering from chronic conditions is incredibly powerful, so we are very grateful to people who gave their time to give evidence to the committee. We certainly look forward to having and update, as promised from the Cabinet Secretary, in the second half of this year. Diolch yn fawr.

The proposal is to note the committee's report. Does any Member object? No, there is no objection. Therefore, that motion is agreed.

Item 9 is next, the Welsh Conservatives debate on discipline and behaviour management in schools. I call on Natasha Asghar to move the motion.

Thank you so much, Presiding Officer. Sadly, it brings me no pleasure to introduce this important debate here today in the Chamber. Since, in fact, taking on the shadow education portfolio five months ago, I've spent a lot of time speaking with teachers, parents, pupils and education experts, from nursery all the way through to further education. I cannot deny that Wales has a diverse range of educational facilities and a workforce whose priority is to educate pupils in a safe, stable and supportive environment. Whilst many reflect fondly on their school years and days, in fact, as a time for learning, for developing their skills, sadly we're hearing more and more of violence and anti-social behaviour happening in our schools today.

Unfortunately, this small minority—and I will say the words 'small minority'—of disruptive students has a significant detrimental impact on the learning environments and leaves teachers and staff feeling threatened, which contributes to the ongoing issue of recruitment and the ultimate retention of teachers. It is essential that this behaviour is addressed, and it must be addressed now.

What schools across Wales need is a robust strategy for improving school discipline and behaviour management introduced by the Welsh Government sooner rather than later. We cannot deny that under Labour's leadership over the past 26 years, the situation in our schools has worsened, with record levels of physical assaults on teachers, a tripling of fixed-term exclusions, and an increase in knife-related incidents. This is just the tip of the iceberg, as research shows that many incidents have not indeed been recorded, with schools also issuing children with internal school exclusions, where they are withdrawn from the learning environment.

As our motion highlights, the number of secondary pupils receiving fixed-term exclusions tripled between 2015 to 2016, and, from 2022 to 2023, increased from 2 per cent to 5.9 per cent.

For pupils with special educational needs or additional learning needs, the rate more than doubled, from 5.6 per cent to 11.6 per cent. Pupils with attention deficit hyperactivity disorder or behavioural, emotional and social difficulties, also known as BESD, had the highest exclusion rates in 2022 to 2023, with—and I'd really like you all to pay attention to this figure—524.7 exclusions per 1,000 pupils with ADHD, and 459.3 for those with BESD.

Cabinet Secretary, standing alone, these figures are extremely concerning, but something is clearly seriously wrong when over 50 per cent of pupils with ADHD have indeed been excluded during a school year. These figures only account for pupils who have been excluded, not those removed temporarily for less severe incidents. So, I'd like to ask the Cabinet Secretary today: do local authorities collect such data? And if they do, is it indeed shared with the Welsh Government? Because without this information, we will never be able to fully understand the extent of the problem.

The second point of our motion expresses regret that violence against teachers and knife attacks are at their highest levels. Reported violent incidents increased from 2,483, from 2019 to 2020, to 6,446, from 2023 to 2024.

Twelve months ago, a 14-year-old pupil stabbed two teachers and a fellow student in Ysgol Dyffryn Aman in Carmarthenshire, a crime for which she was sentenced to 14 years' detention this week. These figures, obtained by the NASUWT, likely under-reported the problem, as the union has stated there is a chronic under-reporting of violence in schools. And that worries me to my core, because how can we deal with the issue when we don't actually know how bad the situation is in reality?

On a recent visit to Caldicot high school, I met acting head teacher Alun Ebenezer, who has introduced strict discipline and rules that have, without a doubt, turned around the school's performance. Ultimately reducing exclusions and fostering a positive ethos, Mr Ebenezer's example shows change is indeed possible, but it requires hard work and a willingness to be unpopular.

Unfortunately, respect for authority has diminished in recent years, with many children challenging the word 'no'. There is a clear breakdown in relationships between teachers, as well as parents, exacerbated by the time pupils spent schooling from home during the COVID-19 lockdown.

Cabinet Secretary, I am aware that you are hosting a behavioural summit next month, and it is vital that the lack of parental respect is addressed alongside parental behaviour—pupils' behaviour; my apologies there. This summit must reflect all viewpoints from teaching professionals, even those that may indeed come across as uncomfortable. Your colleague the Cabinet Secretary for Transport and North Wales invited me, in my previous shadow role, to a school transport summit that he organised, which I passed on to my now colleague, who is handling the portfolio. So, will you be extending the same courtesy to me and my colleague from Plaid Cymru with the same role?

The NASUWT recently stated that mobile phone use, social media influences and a shift towards individual learning at the expense of collective needs have indeed contributed to school violence. They also reported a survey in which nearly three in five teachers believe social media negatively affects behaviour, increasing misogyny and sexism, which is deeply concerning.

Let me be clear: I am not solely going to be blaming the Labour Government here entirely for the rise in violence in schools. I respect the work done by our education workforce, who undoubtedly face a challenging environment, however, the Welsh Labour Government has been in charge of education in Wales for over a quarter of a century. Under the Welsh Labour Government's watch, the decline in behaviour has worsened, and it's ultimately the Welsh Labour Government's responsibility to reset the system.

If we continue to ignore these issues, we will see even more teachers leaving the profession, pupils will continue to underachieve, and violence in schools will only be on the rise. Cabinet Secretary, I urge you to listen to the experts and take action to tackle this epidemic of school violence. We need to rebuild trust between schools and families and increase respect for our teachers.

I would also urge you to listen to the voices on the ground. Headteachers and union representatives may offer one perspective, which is fine, but teachers, supply teachers and teaching assistants must also be heard and not held back for speaking the truth to avoid making a Minister feel uncomfortable, as one of them told me. [Interruption.] I appreciate that.

We must take a firm stand against violence and misconduct to create an environment where pupils can thrive and flourish, and their learning reflects the requirements of an ever-developing society. The Welsh Conservatives are committed to improving the safety and well-being of both students and teachers. Will the Welsh Labour Government make the same commitment?

I would like to conclude with a quote from Sharron Daly, a teacher from Bridgend. She said about

'some children having a "sense of entitlement", with larger class sizes leading to "lots of low level disruption."

'An awful lot of young people come to us...without boundaries and expectations at home and then that comes into the classroom...even asking children to "sit down and stop talking" can be challenged by some pupils.

'It's not just upsetting for me as a professional, it's upsetting for the other children in the class to witness that if the adult in the room, the responsible adult in the room, is being verbally abused'.

Wales needs a strong and resilient strategy to improve discipline and behavioural management, and it's up to you to show leadership by introducing it. I urge the Chamber to support our motion today, and take the necessary action to restore safety and order in our schools, before things go from bad to worse. Thank you.

I have selected the amendments to the motion. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be deselected. I now call on Cefin Campbell to move amendment 1.

Thank you very much, Llywydd. It is entirely appropriate that we discuss this afternoon a matter that is causing increasing concern in the education system, namely serious misbehaviour by pupils and an increase in verbal and physical violence against teachers. I move these amendments in the name of Heledd Fychan.

Today's debate, as we've already heard, is entirely timely following the verdict on Monday against a 14-year-old girl who will be held in custody for a period of 15 years following an attempt to kill two teachers and a fellow pupil at Ysgol Dyffryn Aman. Even having to state this in the Siambr is shocking and is a cause of personal regret, as it is this school that I attended, along with others in this Siambr. It's a regret that's echoed in the tight-knit, friendly community of Ammanford, amid the horror that this kind of wholly intentional attack was perpetrated by a young woman with a knife in her hand. Now, this event, of course, raises questions about staff and pupil safety in our schools today, and that's why we must seek definitive solutions as a matter of urgency.

As the National Education Union has noted recently, cuts to welfare payments and social services, along with increasing levels of poverty and deprivation, have caused so many children and their families to feel completely disillusioned. Cuts to the provision of pastoral officers and learning mentors have exacerbated the situation too. Due to funding cuts over the past few years, the support for children facing mental health issues and additional learning needs have led to feelings of frustration amongst pupils. 

Now, whilst I agree with some aspects of the Conservatives' original motion, we couldn't support it for many different reasons. For example, I don't think there is necessarily a widespread lack of discipline across Welsh schools, as the original motion suggests. You can look at Welsh Government's own data in two ways, which reveals that the number of secondary school pupils who received fixed-term exclusions has tripled from 2015-16 to 2022-23. Now, it either suggests that strong discipline is being enforced, or the incidence of challenging behaviour is on the increase. 

Additionally, I don't think the claim that there's been a breakdown in relationships between parents and teachers is backed up by strong evidence. However, a significant factor contributing to disruptive behaviour is the impact of social media, and I feel this behavioural determinant was overlooked in the original motion.

I have no doubt that the pervasive nature of social media has exacerbated issues such as bullying, misogyny and racism amongst learners. It is crucial, therefore, that we recognise the significant impact of social media on student behaviour and develop clear policies for schools to manage its negative influence. Providing guidance on addressing online behaviour that disrupts the learning environment is essential for fostering a safe and respectful atmosphere in our schools, and this includes a debate on the use of smartphones in schools.

In light of this, Plaid Cymru is calling on Welsh Government to urgently implement a robust strategy to improve discipline and behaviour in schools, to prevent the verbal and physical abuse of teachers. The strategy should include measures for restorative justice and conflict solution, with an absolute commitment to zero tolerance for disruptive and violent behaviour.

In this regard, I would like to see the idea of community schools being extended to ensure that wraparound services are available on every secondary school campus. Additional funding should be allocated to schools to ensure that there is better management of anti-social and threatening behaviour by recruiting behaviour improvement officers and mental health specialists, providing additional support for children with additional learning needs, and improving general safety measures, including electronic lock systems. 

The challenges facing our schools are complex and multifaceted, but we must tackle these challenges as a matter of urgency. A year has now passed since the events at Ysgol Dyffryn Aman, and no solutions have been proposed by the Government on safety in schools. We cannot, Cabinet Secretary, wait for another similar attack before you respond.

You have a summit being held next month to discuss these issues, so may I ask you, to conclude, what specific proposals you, as Cabinet Secretary, will be presenting at that summit? And what guidance and leadership will you, as a Government, be providing to the profession on the issue of safety in schools? Because the last thing we want is a talking shop that promises the world but delivers nothing.

The Cabinet Secretary to formally move amendment 2.

Formally.

Formally moved. Janet Finch-Saunders.

Diolch, Llywydd. First off, can I start by thanking all our headteachers, our teachers, our teaching assistants, for their incredible work in what is now becoming quite, it's fair to say, an uncertain and, at times, dangerous area for them to be working? Too often we hear of violence in schools and very bad pupil behaviour, verbal abuse, physical abuse, sexual assault on other pupils, disruptive behaviour. Our teachers are suffering and our pupils are suffering.

Actual violence in schools has, unfortunately, become an increasing trend, and some teachers now are finding it surprising if a colleague hasn't experienced or is not used to some form of violence from pupils. Such incidents in schools have more than doubled in the last three years, and we're also seeing increases in lots and lots of bullying issues, and that's something I want to really emphasise in a minute. Local authorities received 6,446 violent incident reports from schools in 2023-24, compared to 4,714 incidents in the previous year. A NASUWT survey found that 79 per cent of respondents said verbal and physical abuse from pupils had affected their morale. And wouldn't it just if you thought, every day you went to work, 'What's going to happen today?' Sixty-five per cent report increased stress levels; 55 per cent said the abuse had made them consider leaving the profession. We don't have enough teachers in Wales, and certainly we cannot stand by, or the Welsh Government cannot stand by, and have it where they're considering leaving this wonderful profession. Many enter this to inspire and nurture pupils so that they can reach their own full potential, and for them to be facing such challenges is deeply wrong.

So, we've seen the number of teachers leaving the profession increasing, and many factors are contributing to this trend. His Majesty's chief inspector suggests that perceived challenges with behaviour, and an increased burden on schools to take on responsibilities formerly held by services like child and adolescent mental health services, are major reasons why teachers are leaving. As of June 2024, a NASUWT report revealed nearly 10 per cent of teachers in Wales have experienced pupils bringing weapons to school in the previous 12 months. This statistic is more concerning when viewed alongside the 2019 guidance, in which possession of a weapon was a reportable reason for exclusion. However, guidance issued by the Welsh Government in April 2024 removed carrying a weapon as a reportable reason, and I'd like a good explanation for why you've done that.

All of this is occurring during a period marked by several violent incidents in Welsh schools, such as at Ysgol Dyffryn Aman, Carmarthenshire, where two teachers and a pupil were injured during a stabbing in April 2024. The pupil was later found guilty of three counts of attempted murder.

This issue is affecting schools all across Wales. In 2023, there were 1,574 such offences: 316 offences in north Wales; 719 in south Wales; 376 in Gwent; 163 in Dyfed Powys. These figures show—. That's evidence, that is data, that there is a massive problem here.

Establishing discipline and structure in schools is not only vital for the safety of both pupils and teachers, but we need a foundation instilling into our schools that appropriate behaviour is a must. A failure to learn basic social skills at an early age could lead to difficulties in adapting to workplaces such as offices, which would negatively affect not only individuals but also the future Welsh economy.

Now, I see, when I get bullying incidents brought to me—or I've had sexual assault accusations of a pupil against a pupil—it can be very difficult for the parents actually engaging with the school. They don't know whether to approach the headteacher. They've never really thought about approaching the chair of governors, or is it the education authority, and I think there need to be clearer guidelines.

I know governors over the years, school governors—. I was one about 20 years ago, and it was almost like 'make it up as you go along'. We've come a long way since then, with training and what have you, for school governors. But I genuinely believe now that the Welsh Government and you, Minister, need to actually listen to exactly what Natasha has said. I'm disappointed Plaid won't support our motion, when, actually, in your contribution, Cefin, you've agreed with a lot of what we were saying. So, why not support the motion? It gives greater teeth to our argument.

But, anyway, we are where we are.

Yes, and we're out of time as well, Janet.

Okay. But I honestly do think if we all work together on this—. I want our schools to be a safe place for children to go and learn, and I want our schools to be where teachers actually look forward to going in and carrying out their vocation and their role as teachers and educators to the best of their ability and in a safe environment. Diolch yn fawr.

This is an important issue to debate. Unison has highlighted the growing problem of violence towards school staff and has had to issue advice to its members. Estyn has also reported that in primary schools more pupils are struggling to regulate their emotions, while in secondary schools more pupils are struggling with issues such as mental health, social skills and engagement.

However, I think it's important to stress that issues around the behaviour of children and young people are not unique to Wales. Similar evidence is shown throughout the UK, and even internationally, following the COVID pandemic. Although behaviour had been challenging before then, violent incidents have more than doubled in the last three years. That being said, the Welsh Government recognises this worrying trend and has established a programme of work to collaborate with partners on the actions needed to tackle poor behaviour and violence in schools. The actions need support from local government, teachers and school staff, and also parents, if they're going to work. That's why, as we've already heard, it's important that the Cabinet Secretary has arranged a round-table on violence in schools with the police, and a behaviour summit, with all key partners attending. I also understand the Cabinet Secretary has commissioned important research from Bangor University to ensure we have the most robust and up-to-date evidence on challenging and disruptive behaviour in schools and the most effective strategies for dealing with it.

We know from the inquiry into the petitions debate on banning mobile phones in schools, except for in exceptional circumstances, that headteachers have wanted such decisions to be left up to individual schools. Many are already mobile-free schools, but many teachers themselves wanted a ban, as mobile phones are sometimes used to record teachers. And I agree that social media has had a negative influence on our young people, and adults as well.

I believe that the investment in twenty-first century schools, now called Sustainable Communities for Learning, has helped to create a more positive learning environment, and we have seen some benefits from that. We must continue to put staff and pupil well-being at the forefront of any strategies implemented to deal with poor behaviour. In particular, consultation with teachers' unions is absolutely essential. Diolch.

I think we all agree that the decline in behavioural standards within school settings is worrying and should not be allowed to continue. That said, I know that the answer isn't easy. Poor behaviour negatively affects the whole school community, leading to a downward trend in school standards, reputation and pupil outcomes, let alone the well-being implications of the individuals who are affected. We hear, as we've already heard, too often now of teachers being threatened or physically attacked even. Only recently, this growing problem led to a teachers' strike in a Monmouthshire school—a situation we couldn't have imagined would ever have happened. I've never seen it anywhere before.

School staff should never feel intimidated by pupils or parents, but, sadly, we hear too often that they are, and I'm sure that all would agree that discipline should start at home. And there lies a huge dilemma in itself, which is fundamental to the issues within this motion, but outside of the scope of today's debate. However, the issues within schools have to be addressed. The Government has to develop, together with authorities, robust strategies to deal with the societal decline that seems to be permeating through some of our schools—something that seems to have worsened since the pandemic. Llywydd, we have seen a worrying rise in the number of violent incidents reported in schools, with an increase, as we've heard, of almost 30 per cent over the last year. And I too, like Janet Finch-Saunders, was really concerned to see that the guidance now changes the exclusion criteria. And I could not believe it, and I hope that I've misunderstood it and that that will be clarified in the Cabinet Secretary's response.

We're told that over half of the teachers surveyed said that fighting was a daily and weekly problem in their schools—again, a symptom of poor discipline and attitudes. Don't get me wrong, fighting was always happening in schools over many years, but it seems to have got to a different level now. It could be argued that Labour's underfunding of our education system has resulted in both schools and councils grappling with a lack of the resource that is needed to put the interventions in place that could start to turn the tide within our school settings. As we have heard, there has been a 6 per cent increase in bullying between 2021 and 2023, a figure that is of huge concern. And today's bullying isn't what we once knew; it now can be constant via social media, 24/7, with no relief for the victim—another consequence of societal change.

Unfortunately, bad behaviour is not simply limited to school grounds. Bullying and bad behaviour can often occur on home-to-school transport, and certainly on public transport, especially on those longer journeys. Whilst I am glad that the Welsh Government have moved to address some of this issue, the simple fact is that not enough has been done as yet. We have seen far too many stories in the news of bad behaviour outside of schools, with one bus company, we know, in Corwen, altering its route to avoid specific bus stops as a result of projectiles being thrown at the bus. Transport for Wales has also reported a rise in anti-social behaviour on the core Valleys lines, with nearly two thirds of instances of anti-social behaviour on the lines involving individuals under the age of 17.

It is clear that we need robust strategies to improve discipline and behaviour management in schools, ensuring that behavioural standards are still enforced outside of the school gates. This, I believe, will require a multi-agency approach, with zero tolerance, and with appropriate sanctions to nudge the trends we see today. It would be naive to suggest that there's an easy answer to the behavioural issues we've discussed, but good discipline, driven by strong school leadership and supplemented by community buy-in, is, I believe, fundamental. This all needs Welsh Government to get to grips with the situation, as things can't go on as they are. So, I urge all Members to support our motion. Diolch.

On Monday, we saw the first conviction ever for attempted murder inside a Welsh school. The attack in Ysgol Dyffryn Aman has sent a tremor through every staff room and every kitchen table in the country. It is the lightning bolt that shows the storm already overhead. Violence, once exceptional, is edging towards routine, an ugly new normal. And, as we've heard, Government statistics now record 65 fixed-term exclusions per 1,000 pupils, more than double the pre-pandemic figure.

The tragedy in Ammanford was not unforeseeable. No-one shouted louder than deputy head Ceri Myers: between January and the very morning of the attack, he e-mailed Welsh Government seven times, pleading for guidance on challenging behaviour. In an interview with ITV, he said he was palmed off. The girl who stabbed Fiona Elias, Liz Hopkin and another pupil had already brought a knife into school the year before. The signs were there. The system didn’t see them, ignored them.

Now, a year has passed, yet urgency, I have to say, has been sadly lacking. I’ve sat with Liz Hopkin more than once. No-one, to my knowledge, from Welsh Government, Estyn or the regional review group has yet asked her about her experience. The Estyn thematic review on school behaviour is not yet published, nor are the terms of reference of the regional multi-agency review, and yet transparency, not silence, heals wounds such as these.

Local lessons are obviously important, but then they’re not sufficient in and of themselves. A local review may describe how one tragedy unfolded, but if we’re to learn why it was allowed to happen at all, whether it could happen tomorrow and what must change to prevent it, we need a nationally commissioned inquiry, public, independent and able to compel evidence just as the courts did. And if Ministers baulk at the idea of a full public inquiry, then at least commission an independent national review, led by a figure whose integrity commands confidence, just as Donna Ockenden has done in our health service on more than one occasion. And commission it now, while memories are fresh.

One lesson from Ammanford is crystal clear, in my view: if anyone brings a knife into school, the system must act. Exclusion should be the norm in most cases, with mandatory referral to the police, social services and CAMHS, and there should only be narrowly drawn exceptions for a less stringent response, where there is evidence, for example, that it's to do with self-harm or proven coercion. Every pupil, parent and teacher must have confidence in a basic rule: bring a knife into school, and the system will respond, to protect everyone, everywhere, every time.

Rules will fail, however, if the safety need net beneath them is torn. PRUs—pupil referral units—are full, CAMHS is struggling with excessive waits, agonisingly long waits in some cases. Trainee teachers, as far as I’m aware, receive the bare minimum of training in terms of de-escalation and trauma-informed intervention, et cetera. Restorative approaches can transform lives, but without behavioural specialists, therapeutic support and proper training and resourcing, we’re asking schools to do the impossible at the moment.

There is, however, one change that I believe Government could make to reclaim calm relatively quickly, and it’s been addressed already: remove smartphones from the school day. A lockable pouch for £12 or so buys every child six hours of undistracted learning and quieter corridors. It’s not a panacea, but it is a clear affordable first step.

In the run-up to the behaviour summit, I asked the Government for four actions: announce a statutory or independent review and give it the tools to uncover every missed warning; put that knife protocol in place, default exclusion and mandatory multi-agency referral, with only limited exceptions; fund the safety net, expand PRU places, shorten CAMHS waits and train behaviour teams in every school; back a phone-free school day, drawing on the available evidence while deeper reforms bed in. When I asked Liz Hopkin what she wanted from the Senedd, she did not ask for sympathy, she asked for courage: our courage to shine a public light on every failing, and to act on what we find.

No more excuses.

No more excuses. Now is the time for action.

Bad behaviour and violence have become a part of daily life in schools across Wales, and things are getting worse. 'An ugly new normal', as Adam Price put it, sums it up. I think that's just an awful thing to wrap our heads around, that we've got to this point. Teachers who are doing their best daily do not have the right protection in place for them, to protect their careers, to enable them to report incidents and get the help that they need. Equally, support is lacking for pupils.

Recent figures published by our teaching unions paint a deeply troubling picture. As Janet Finch-Saunders has already said, in the last year alone, there were over 6,400 reported violent incidents in Welsh schools. That's a shocking rise from the 4,700 the year before. Let's be absolutely clear: these statistics show the brutal reality of what Welsh schooling has become. Teachers are being punched, kicked, spat at, threatened by the students they are trying to help. One in three teachers have now suffered physical abuse from pupils, and that is utterly unacceptable.

In Newport, in my region, the numbers are staggering. In just four years, violent incidents have risen from 193 to 2,300. This shows this type of behaviour is not a blip or hormonal teens. This is a crisis. There have been three school lockdowns just this year in my region due to violence.

The figures that my colleague Natasha Asghar outlined earlier about the expulsions of those with ADHD is a real, real concern. Questions need to be asked, and we need to look back and refer to what's happening with the new ALN Act and the interpretation of those across our local authorities. An unintended consequence of the much-needed new ALN Act has resulted in lesser additional learning needs children and young people in our schools falling through the cracks. This is having an impact on behaviour because of the frustrations that those children are feeling in the classroom about not getting the support they deserve and the support that they need, and this is obviously impacting on behaviour.

This Welsh Government currently are not doing right by the children of Wales. You are letting children and young people down. What have you done about it? What has this Government done about it? It's done very little. You're now talking about a behaviour summit. Finally. The ex-Minister was keen for me to bring ideas to the floor of the Senedd, to this Welsh Government, when I was shadow education Minister about two years ago, which I did. I offered a blueprint of what we should do about this: issue new guidance to teachers, staff and school leaders; reform expulsion procedures, so that pupils who are excluded go on to receive the support that they actually need; ensure extra funding for meaningful interventions to support victims and perpetrators of violence; create a national helpline to support teachers and staff who are afraid to report violence and disruption; and finally, to hold a summit, which it seems, years later, you are now doing. I gave you that blueprint of how to begin to fix these issues. I very much liked what Adam was saying about Plaid Cymru's take on this and what also needs to be done, and I would personally support that as well as what we've said.

The thousands of incidents that we already know about are just the tip of the iceberg, and the actual picture is probably far, far worse because teachers are afraid to report it due to their schools getting a bad reputation. That is not right and that's not a good place for teachers to feel that they're in.

The Welsh Conservatives have again laid out a plan. We have one, and, clearly, Labour don't have one. Instead of action, we've had silence. Instead of leadership, we've had dithering. These failures have consequences, and, unfortunately, that's now what we're witnessing up and down the country through Wales. Children cannot learn in chaotic classrooms, and teachers cannot teach when they're afraid. Right now, the Government is failing to protect them. 

Labour needs to get a grip, step up, back our teachers, back our pupils and implement the real changes that we desperately need. Wales deserves safe, respectful and aspirational classrooms, and the time to act is now. Standards and grades will not go up unless this is addressed, nor will we address the teacher and recruitment crisis that we have today. I urge you to support our motion today. Diolch.

The Cabinet Secretary for Education will now contribute to the debate. Lynne Neagle.

Diolch, Llywydd. Can I start today by paying tribute to the staff and children at Ysgol Dyffryn Aman? The incident last year, which shocked all of us, was even more shocking to all of those in the school and in the local community. My thoughts remain with all those affected and I hope that with the trial and sentencing now concluded, the school, staff and learners can move forward. I would also like to thank colleagues for their contributions today.

I want all schools in Wales to be safe places, where staff and learners feel safe, supported and treated with respect. No-one goes to work to be abused, and I know that this is a significant issue of concern for our education workforce. They have been telling me about the increase in overall levels of poor behaviour and the worrying increases in verbal and physical abuse that they’re seeing. But I think it’s also important to note that children do not go to school to be abused either; they go to learn. And it’s a sad fact that poor behaviour in our classrooms disrupts the learning for all children.

It is also apparent that the physical and verbal abuse often directed at teachers is also experienced by children. I am deeply concerned about this, about the impact that poor behaviour has on our children’s ability to learn and succeed, about the impact that poor behaviour has on our education workforce and their ability to teach and support learners, and about the impact that it has on the image of the profession and our ability to recruit and retain the excellent teachers and support staff that our children deserve. That is why I am taking action to address these issues.

On 8 May, I’m chairing a round-table on violence and safety in schools and colleges. This will be attended by the four police forces, the Youth Justice Board for England and Wales, Estyn, Medr, the Children’s Commissioner for Wales, local authorities and the education unions. But most importantly, it will also be attended by schools, with a number of headteachers joining us to discuss their experiences, those of their colleagues, and the actions they think are needed to make our schools safe.

On the same day, Estyn will be publishing their thematic review into behaviour in secondary schools in Wales. This follows the publication tomorrow of their thematic review into behaviour in further education. As a Government, we requested both of these reviews so that we could better understand the issues that our schools are facing. They sit alongside research that we’ve commissioned from Bangor University into behaviour in our classrooms, which I hope will be published later in May.

These reports and the underlying research, along with first-hand experiences to be discussed at the round-table, will help us determine what support schools need to turn the tide on verbal and physical abuse. They will underpin the discussions at our national behaviour summit on 22 May, where we will again be hearing from schools and headteachers about the wider issues they face beyond violence.

Some of what we may consider to be low-level disruptive behaviour also has the potential to impact staff and learners and to impede learning. I want the summit to look at the issue in the round, building on the discussions around safety in our schools, but also looking at the everyday challenges that our schools and colleges face.

Will you take an intervention?

Sure.

I appreciate you giving us details on the summit, but I think the core ingredient missing out of the list and names you gave there was parents. I might have misunderstood, but I didn’t hear any parent representation at that summit. How do you hope to capture the parent’s voice around that table? Because it’s all well and good having the organisations there, who have official responsibilities, but in this discipline area, we need parents bought into this as well, we do.

Thank you for that intervention and I agree with you that parental engagement is vital. I will have more to say on that in my speech, but it is absolutely key that we engage parents in this work. The summit itself won't be hearing from parents because I don't think that's the appropriate vehicle, but we will be working with parents and also with children and young people.

I also want to be clear that we should not lose sight of the fact that such abuse does not generally come from nowhere. Behind each outburst, each incident, each assault, there will be a trigger. Our children are facing ever-increasing pressures. We know that rates of poor mental health and anxiety are higher now amongst our children and young people than ever before. They continue to feel the impacts of the pandemic, when their routines and support structures were disrupted. The cost-of-living crisis has hit families hard, and children see and understand those impacts on their parents. We are also seeing more complex support needs amongst our children. This is not always about ALN. We are seeing more children with issues with speech, language and communication, or who have missed developmental milestones. Not all children find it easy to regulate their behaviour, and some need more support, with schools and families working together. I recognise these challenges.

We are investing over £13 million annually in our whole-school approach to mental health, with over £2 million going directly into school-based counselling. By the end of March, 84 per cent of our schools, including 98 per cent of secondary schools, were actively action planning to meet the well-being needs of our children in line with our whole-school approach to emotional and mental well-being. This is a vital part of supporting our learners and helping them improve their behaviour. A school that supports well-being is a welcoming one and one that benefits staff and children. 

I also want to be clear that we are supporting the well-being of staff too, working with Education Support to provide counselling and other services they need. Alongside this, we are continuing to support schools to work with families and the wider community to understand their learners' needs and meet them. We've invested a further £1 million in embedding community focused schools approaches this year, and have just published the final piece of our guidance on multi-agency working.

I want all schools to be community focused schools, working with parents, families and the community. I see the role of family engagement officers as critical to this. Family engagement officers work with families, children and schools to ensure the right support is in place. We are investing nearly £10 million this year, £3 million more than in 2024-25, in supporting the work of family engagement officers across Wales. 

I am also well aware of the concerns around the impact of mobile phones and social media. I will be discussing these with my counterparts across the UK, as these as shared issues. I will be saying more in my response to the Petitions Committee's recent report. This investment and the summit are not the end. They are the beginning of what will be a longer programme of work. 

Although I agree with many of the points in the amendment tabled by Plaid Cymru, on this occasion I have not been able to accept them. The reason for that is I don't want to pre-empt the outcomes of the behaviour summit and I am keen to continue listening to school staff, children and their parents about what they need. If I can say, in response to—[Interruption.] Go on then.

Will you take an intervention quickly? You've mentioned the summit many times, and I welcome the summit. In my contribution, I asked what proposals you're putting forward as a Cabinet Secretary, what guidance and direction you as Welsh Government are providing to the sector on behaviour in schools. If I could just have a response particularly to that.

I've set out some of the work that we are doing. We've got Bangor University research on behaviour, which will support the summit. The two Estyn reviews will support the summit. We're developing a behaviour toolkit, which will feed into the summit. But I think the really important thing about the summit is it's to hear from stakeholders, and I think it would be quite wrong for me to have summits and round-tables and then just go and tell people what the answer is.

In fact, I've been very clear with officials that I think listening at these events is really important: listening to the people who are on the front line, who are experiencing every day the challenges that we face. We will feed back after the summit. I have made a commitment that it will be an action-focused summit, but I think it would be quite wrong for me to go there with a set list of tasks. That would completely undermine the value of having the summit.

I wanted to respond to what Adam Price said when he repeated the concerns raised from Ceri Myers, who was previously the deputy headteacher at Ysgol Dyffryn Aman. This is an issue, Adam, that I’ve responded to in the Chamber previously, but I just want to place on the record again the fact that Ceri Myers never wrote to the Welsh Government about anything to do with knives or violence. He raised concerns about behaviour and in particular about things like vapes. He had full responses on a number of occasions and also met with officials. So I just want to very clearly refute the notion that he was palmed off by the Welsh Government.

If I can conclude by saying that I want to hear more from school staff on an ongoing basis, but I also want to hear from parents, and I do recognise the points that have been raised about parents—

Will you take an intervention, seeing as you named me? I'm very grateful. That's a deputy headteacher that has now left teaching in that school and in Wales because he felt that he wasn't listened to. Would you not accept that that situation is a great indictment about the way that he felt he was treated? If more and more teachers feel like that, we'll see, and we are seeing, people leaving the profession. That's the opposite of what we need.

Can I be clear, Adam, that I don't want to see any teachers or school leaders leaving their jobs? But I hope that what I have set out today demonstrates the opposite of what you're saying. Far from not listening, I have made a huge effort since coming into post. I have made it a priority to listen to school staff and to listen to school leaders, and that is why we are taking the action that we are. I've been clear that my door is open to those staff and that I will continue to listen and respond to their concerns.

As I was saying before the intervention, I recognise the points that have been made about parents. It is something that has been raised with me by school staff. I know that we have more work to do in terms of reinforcing that contract of respect between communities and schools, and we are doing that work through our community-focused schools programme. We need all voices in this debate to be heard if we are to reach a solution. So, as I said to Andrew R.T. Davies, we are also having a programme of engagement with children and families.

I recently wrote to all schools in Wales about these issues and in that letter I have asked all staff to complete a survey about their experiences. We have had a very good response to that survey. I want them and you to know that I do understand, I am listening, and we will work with schools, local authorities, trade unions and families to ensure our schools are safe places for all. Diolch yn fawr.

Samuel Kurtz now to reply to the debate.

Diolch, Llywydd. I'm somewhat disappointed in the response there from the Cabinet Secretary, because strong leadership is required in tackling this scourge that's happening in our schools, but rather than lead, the Cabinet Secretary is being led in terms of what we are looking to do here. I am seeing nods from opposition benches across there agreeing with me. This is where strong leadership, political leadership, is required to really tackle these incidents happening within our schools. That is not what we are getting from this Labour Government.

Let's think why this debate is here today. [Interruption.] I will give way to Mr Price.

I echo that. We heard on the one hand a message from the Cabinet Secretary saying, 'I want to listen to teachers', and here was a senior leader in Ysgol Dyffryn Aman setting out the truth, and the Cabinet Secretary was saying, 'I refute that'—'I listen, but if I don't like what teachers are telling me, then I'm going to ignore it.' That's unacceptable.

What is the phrase, 'hearing but not listening’? I watched the ITV documentary that you also took part in, which described the incidents around it. Let's think of why this debate is today: because on Monday that court case came to a conclusion. But that child had previously brought a knife to school. Had the rules been reformed, that expulsion would have been required on the first incident of a child bringing a knife to school. Those horrendous attacks wouldn't have taken place. That's the reality of this. That's where policy has led to this. And I see—[Interruption.] Bear with me one second, Cabinet Secretary. I've referenced you, so I will come back to you. But seeing colleagues who have direct links to that school share their experiences, their family experiences and the experiences of other staff members in that school, and how they feel let down by the system that they operate in, it's no wonder that teachers are leaving the profession in Wales.

I'm puzzled as to how you think the rules, which already allow a child to be excluded for possession of a knife in school, have somehow led to this situation, because I'm not sure you're actually understanding the situation. Children who are found with a knife in school can already be excluded as the rules are at the moment.

You've summed it up there, Cabinet Secretary—can but aren't required to. That's the difference. It was changed. This is where the rules needed strengthening. That's what we've requested. Laura Anne Jones in the shadow portfolio brought forward those suggestions, brought forward a plan to try and tackle this, because as has been noted—as Peter Fox noted—there's no easy answer to this. It's incredibly difficult, but to sit back and wait to be led on this I don't think does any favours.

The Cabinet Secretary in her statement summed up exactly the vicious circle that comes from this. If we have disruption in our classrooms, our pupils have more difficulty in learning and fulfilling what they can achieve. Teachers then leave the profession. We already have some of the worst education rates here in Wales. We also have a high number of teachers leaving the profession, difficulty in recruiting teachers. So, this vicious cycle comes back to the underlining of ensuring that we have good behaviour within our schools.

The Cabinet Secretary has been in position for 12 months and only at the end of this year will we have the behaviour summit. If this is such an integral part of ensuring the success of our schools, the safety of teachers and pupils, shouldn't this have been a priority 12 months ago, 10 months ago, six months ago, not being put into the final echelon of this Senedd term?

There's deep frustration. I speak to my cousin. My cousin, who's a secondary school teacher, talks of chairs being thrown—[Interruption.] I'm enjoying extra contributions to my summing up. It's most probably making me conscious of the time, Llywydd. But I talk to my teacher cousin, who's told the stories of chairs being thrown at them and then shrugging his shoulders and thinking, 'What can be done?' What can be done in these incidents? It's a deep frustration for these teachers.

A friend of mine who's a teacher described his time of teaching in inner London as being far easier than teaching in Wales. That's 25 years of a Labour Government's education policies here in Wales. That's deep frustration from an education—[Interruption.] I won't take any more interventions. That's deep frustration from a profession that we should be empowering, that we should be trusting, and we should be supporting. That's what our motion is calling for today. That's why I would urge every Member of the Senedd to vote to support staff and support our schools, and back our motion.

The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes, there are objections. We will therefore defer voting under this item until voting time. 

That brings us to voting time. Unless three Members wish for the bell to be rung, we will proceed directly to our first vote.

We will proceed slowly because we are voting in this Chamber for the very first time. We will move to our first vote. That vote is on item 6, the debate on a Member's legislative proposal, a Bill on minimum NHS dentistry staffing levels. I call for a vote on the motion tabled in the name of Mabon ap Gwynfor. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 28, 17 abstentions, two against, and therefore the motion is agreed.

The next votes are on item 9, the Welsh Conservatives debate on discipline and behaviour management in schools. I call for a vote on the motion without amendment, tabled in the name of Paul Davies. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 13, no abstentions 35 against, and therefore the motion is not agreed

We will now move to a vote on amendment 1. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be deselected. I call for a vote on amendment 1, tabled in the name of Heledd Fychan. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 10, no abstentions, 38 against, and therefore amendment 1 is not agreed. 

We'll move now to amendment 2, therefore, tabled in the name of Jane Hutt. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favor 25, 10 abstentions, 13 against, and therefore amendment 2 is agreed.

Finally, I will open the vote on the motion as amended. Open the vote.

Close the vote. In favour 25, 10 abstentions, 13 against, and therefore the motion as amended is agreed.

That concludes voting for this afternoon. But our proceedings are not at an end, as we are now moving to the short debate.

And if Members can leave quietly whilst we move on to the short debate.

The short debate today is going to be introduced by Jenny Rathbone. Jenny Rathbone.

Thank you very much. I've agreed to give a minute of my time to Mike Hedges.

Cardiff Central is a constituency of contrast on the east side of the Taf, containing both the richest and the poorest communities in Wales. The communities of Llanedeyrn and Pentwyn form the largest housing estate in Wales, built on what was former farmland, until the end of the 1960s. Cardiff city centre, in contrast, was established in Victorian times, when the population of Cardiff had more than doubled in 20 years: from 65,000 in 1871, it was 142,000 by 1891. So, the current growth is minuscule by comparison.

The 1870 education Act was a landmark piece of legislation, which laid the foundations of free universal education, initially for children between the ages of five and 12. The 1870 Act required the newly established school boards to assess the population need and gave those boards powers to raise the money needed to deliver for those children—from ratepayers.

There was plenty of controversy amongst the burghers of Britain's cities on whether religious schools should be paid out of public funds, and church bodies resisted interference on what they taught, and—. But the Cardiff school board organised the construction of some very handsome, well-constructed school buildings, which are still there today. And amongst them, there is Albany Primary School, opened in 1887. By 1898, it was accommodating over 1,600 pupils, in a school that currently accommodates somewhere between 400 and 450, as a two-form entry school. So, you can see that people really were crammed in to get this education.

During the first world war, it was commandeered as a military hospital, and that was immortalised a century later in an exhibition by contemporary pupils in which most classes took part. And I vividly recall being taken around by pupils proudly displaying all the artefacts that they had gathered together.

Stacey Primary School also has a really colourful history. It opened in July 1892. Amongst its famous pupils was Fred Keenor, and there is a plaque to this famous footballer on the wall of the school. That school celebrated its centenary with a visit from the former Prime Minister James Callaghan, and one of the pupils recalls how

'we all dressed up in Victorian style clothes, and some dignitaries came to the school to look at us and the displays we’d made about the school’s history. The most famous visitor was James Callaghan MP...I think most of us didn’t really know who he was, although I remembered seeing him on the news lot as a smaller child.'

Roath primary school was built on land purchased from the Bute family for £2,500. It opened in 1895. The architects swiftly moved on to building the baby of the four, Gladstone Primary School, built in 1899 to 1900. All these school buildings are still hosting successful, vibrant schools today. Their longevity and usefulness much greater than many more-modern school buildings.

However, the lack of investment in building maintenance in an era of austerity has more recently taken its toll, with leaking roofs, broken boilers and rattling windows. This has led not just to months, but years of scaffolding scarring the playgrounds of these tightly packed learning environments. In one case, which I know the Cabinet Secretary is familiar with, there was rain water literally streaming down the staircase. The risk of both accidents from slipping and potential for water getting into the electrics nearly forced the headteacher to close the school.

At another school, residents of a nearby street have organised a petition to have the scaffolding that has been up for two years removed, both because it's an eyesore and because of the impact on children's learning. There is a broad alliance of stakeholders gunning for resolution of what ought to be a resolvable problem.

I am, and always have been, a great fan of the Welsh Government's twenty-first century schools programme and the £1.5 billion investment in new schools across Wales. However, it was never going to be able to assist these Victorian schools, which need to be retrofitted, because all of them are located in tightly packed inner-city areas where there is no spare land.

So, I applaud the Welsh Government for tweaking the schools capital investment programme in its successor, the Sustainable Communities for Learning programme, which gives some cause for optimism. The guidance speaks about the rebuild and refurbishment of over 150 schools and colleges and sets the required carbon emissions as the outcome that is expected. So, the new programme doesn't discriminate against refurbishment over rebuilding.

I appreciate that the Welsh Government leaves it to local authorities to decide which schools are the priority for limited funding, and that's absolutely right and proper, but as all the schools I have described meet at least three of Cardiff Council's Sustainable Communities for Learning rolling programme priority criteria, namely there is a high risk of not meeting statutory requirements. That has included the risk that a headteacher could be forced to close a school building because of the risk of continuing to try to teach children in an unsafe building. Well, we know that nearly happened. Secondly, invest-to-save, short to medium term. Several million pounds have already been spent patching up these buildings, so a long-term sustainable solution is required. Thirdly, failure to progress would negatively impact the system. If one of these schools was forced to have an unplanned closure, it is self-evident that a disruption to children's right to an education and the cost of dispersing children to schools outside their communities would have huge educational, financial and environmental costs.

So, three years into the Sustainable Communities for Learning rolling programme, I have yet to find any refurbishments that could be models for these four schools in Cardiff's inner-city area. Initially, I got very excited about Pen y Dre in Merthyr Tydfil, originally a building opened in 1896. Was this going to be the exemplar to inspire Cardiff, as the building was refurbished with fanfare as the first refurbished net-zero carbon emissions school in Wales? It's excellent that the school is generating its own renewable energy with any surplus being supplied to Prince Charles Hospital next door, but this school is not the original building, which was demolished in the 1970s, and the new building is the one that's now needing to be refurbished a mere 50 years after it was built.

So, whilst I think it's a great programme and I applaud it and look forward to visiting it one day, it is not exactly of the same order of challenge that is posed by these Victorian schools, because it had land nearby where—. I mean, the roof wasn't even strong enough to take solar panels, this 1970s building, so it had to go on the playing fields. Well, that option simply isn't available to the schools that I've been talking about. So, although Merthyr quite rightly won two awards for this project at Pen y Dre, I have scoured the Royal Institute of British Architects awards and the Constructing Excellence Awards across England and Wales to try and find an innovative refurbishment of Victorian buildings.

Remember that the end of the nineteenth century forced all the then school boards to make provision for their school populations across England and Wales, and I've only found one project, Tollesbury primary school near Maldon in Essex, which is an interesting one but is hardly likely to be repeated elsewhere. So, the Tollesbury Climate Partnership led a campaign to raise £200,000, which enabled the school to qualify for an over £400,000 grant from the Department of Education's public sector decarbonisation scheme, and most of the works, the preparation works, were undertaken at the school at the end of the 2023-24 school year, outside of school hours, and the drilling in the playing fields for the ground source heat pump occurred over last year's school summer holidays. The children were allowed to visit to develop their carbon literacy skills and the field was then reseeded and landscaped once drilling was completed. Solar panels were installed on the school playing field as well. It has reduced emissions by 90 per cent, saved £14,000 annually on energy bills, and this is going to rise to £38,000 after 10 years. All very excellent, but I'm afraid playing fields we don't have in our original Victorian schools, other than on Roath recreation ground, which is already a very well used park, where a lot of games are played, and it wouldn't be possible to simply use that for solar panels, not without a revolution.

So, that was a good example of continued use of a Victorian-era school building, but it simply doesn't meet the challenges we face in the centre of Cardiff. So, what else is out there? The public sector is undoubtedly slow to realise that all buildings are supposed to be net zero by 2030. But if the National Trust can decarbonise all their estate, and similarly Cadw, we really do need to ask local authorities to step up to the plate. Wales has led the way on net-zero social housing, so what can the Welsh Government do to skill up local authorities to meet this challenge that is uniquely one that we have to meet in our inner-city schools?

Mike Hedges.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer, and can I also thank Jenny Rathbone for giving me a minute? In Swansea, it's not the nineteenth century schools built around the time of Forster's education Act that are being replaced due to the state of the buildings, but it's the 1960s and 1970s and 1950s buildings, predominantly secondary schools, that are being replaced due to the state of the buildings. Many of the nineteenth century schools are in heavily built-up areas where the alternatives are building on parkland or updating the building. Many of the nineteenth century schools are very well built. The walls are very thick. In Swansea, many of them are being updated and remodelled. This includes new roofs, new windows, suspended ceilings, new heating systems, rewiring and internal remodelling. This is not cheap, but is necessary for children to be taught in schools suitable for the twenty-first century. Our children deserve to be taught in a school that is conducive to education, and not one that is cold and damp.

I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Education to reply to the debate—Lynne Neagle.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd, and can I thank Jenny Rathbone for raising this important topic about our city schools? Our education estate and its buildings are an integral part of our society across the whole of Wales. From the rural schools to inner-city school buildings, they form a community for our learners, whether it is a modern or an older building. But we live in a twenty-first century digital world, with a global economy. We need an equitable foundation for delivering education in our schools, whether it is rural or inner city, modern or old.

Our learning community and education estate, supported through the Sustainable Communities for Learning programme, acknowledges the need to refurbish the older building stock, as well as building new schools, to make the whole of our education estate fit for learners and staff, not just for those of today, but also for the future. The Government has invested record amounts in our school buildings, seeing a total investment of over £1.5 billion over the band B period. Together with band A, this has enabled 159 new schools to be built across Wales, with a further 49 currently under construction or in planning stages. That is more than 14 per cent of the school estate in Wales, which I think is a significant achievement and something I'm very proud of.

Additionally, the Sustainable Communities for Learning programme is also committed to supporting the maintenance and functional suitability of existing school buildings, as Jenny has said. This commitment has enabled delivery of a further 123 projects, comprising extensions and major refurbishments. After taking account of the new-build projects, this represents 10 per cent of the school estate in Wales. All these projects are designed to meet modern educational standards, sustainability goals and meet future needs, enhancing the overall education estate, teaching and learning environment and the well-being of learners and staff. This programme includes ongoing investment in a new nine-year rolling programme of projects, which continues to support local authorities with a dynamic and responsive funding programme aligned with the Welsh Government's Wales infrastructure investment strategy and the timely delivery of both local and national priorities for education in Wales. The flexibility within the programme provides an opportunity for delivery partners to identify longer term strategic proposals, whether it be a new school extension or refurbishment of an existing building. For colleges in particular, this even extends to the repurposing of existing buildings, with many projects now aimed at town and city centre regeneration and placemaking. That same flexibility and responsiveness also allows local authorities to react to local demands or changing priorities, such as the increased or accelerated deterioration of a school building.

I'm also proud to say that, since January 2022, all projects delivered through the programme are required to be net-zero carbon in operation, as well as a maximum value of embodied carbon. The targets for embodied carbon—that is the upfront carbon emissions that are created by the construction phase before a building becomes operational—mean that there's a stronger emphasis on refurbishments of existing school buildings, as opposed to the usual demolition-and-rebuild model. A refurbishment retains much of the existing structure, reducing the need for new materials and the associated embodied carbon.

The concept of nineteenth century schools in twenty-first century cities, or indeed in rural locations, can offer some unique benefits, despite the challenges of adapting to modern educational needs. Potential advantages include historical architecture and atmosphere. Many nineteenth century school buildings have distinctive architectural styles that can provide a unique and inspiring learning environment. Preserving these buildings can also foster a sense of place, social cohesion and continuity. These schools often have deep roots in their communities, creating a strong sense of tradition and local identity. This can enhance community engagement and civic pride. And transforming old school buildings into modern learning spaces can showcase innovative approaches to education.

An example of innovation in transforming old schools is Ysgol Gymraeg y Trallwng in Powys. The new 150-place building in Welshpool maintains the presence of the historic grade II listed Ysgol Maes y Dre, while the new extension meets the robust passive house standards on air tightness and energy efficiency levels, removing the need for traditional gas central heating, successfully integrating twenty-first century technology and teaching methods into a nineteenth century learning environment.

In the city of Bangor, designs are currently being developed for Ysgol Tryfan, where, due to the quality of the Victorian construction, the building will be refurbished. This is in contrast to the later 1970s and 1980s extensions on site that are considered as being less suitable for retaining or upgrading. Renovating and repurposing existing buildings can be more sustainable than constructing new ones. It reduces waste and preserves resources, aligning with modern environmental goals. A leading example of this, as Jenny has mentioned, is Pen y Dre secondary school in Merthyr Tydfil, where the school is leading the way, being the first net-zero carbon in-operation major refurbishment project in Wales, reducing its embodied carbon by retaining the substructure, floor slabs and structural frame. This approach is estimated to save about 48 per cent of the carbon emissions associated with new-build construction.

However, circumstances will arise whereby a new-build school is the most appropriate option, for example as part of a new housing development. But what we must avoid is some of the unintended consequences that we've seen through modern methods of construction, such as overheating during the summer months. As witnessed myself during school visits, our traditional Victorian schools typically provide a more pleasant, temperate learning environment during the warmer months, but they can, as Jenny has said, present their own challenges during the wetter, colder months. It is, however, important to address the limitations of these older schools, such as outdated infrastructure and the need for modern educational tools and methods. Balancing preservation with innovation can create a unique and effective learning environment.

Improving nineteenth century school buildings to meet modern standards while preserving their historical character can be challenging, but also engaging and rewarding. The typical challenges faced by upgrading and refurbishment projects include structural upgrades, providing modern amenities, integrating technology, together with preserving the educational heritage of Wales. Incorporating the building's history  into the curriculum to enhance learners' connection with their school can benefit learners through an understanding and appreciation of their built environment. It is my strong belief that, through the collaborative nature of Sustainable Communities for Learning, we can continue to address these challenges in ensuring that schools of all eras meet current standards and are fit for today's learners.

To support local authorities in planning the decarbonisation of the existing education estate, officials have procured an innovative elemental building condition and carbon survey. These surveys result in a database of building condition and energy information for local authorities and schools to generate a route-map to net-zero carbon for every school building in Wales. This initiative helps in supporting local authorities to decarbonise their school buildings in a manner that is aligned to their asset maintenance programme. Further technical and financial support through the Welsh Government-funded energy service is being provided to all local authorities for their public buildings. Uptake of this support for schools was oversubscribed and I have therefore approved £5 million of capital grant support for the education element of this programme.

Local knowledge must be used to prioritise authorities' revenue funding and capital investment in addressing any poor-condition buildings on the education estate. While nineteenth century buildings offer historical, architectural and sustainability value, it is acknowledged that their maintenance costs can be greater when compared to modern buildings. This is particularly relevant in situations where repairs are delayed. Investing in energy efficient upgrades and regular maintenance to school buildings, new or old, is essential in order to mitigate these costs. Local authorities and governing bodies must bear this in mind when planning their maintenance and capital programmes. Consequential damage from delayed repairs can only add further to costs. In supporting local authorities to maintain their school buildings, last year I approved £40 million of capital maintenance grant funding for schools in Wales. In this current financial year, I have listened to local authorities about the challenges they face in maintaining their school buildings and have allocated a further £24 million at the very start of the new financial year. This will allow more time for local authorities to plan, procure and deliver meaningful capital maintenance projects to their school buildings. Supporting local authorities in maintaining their school buildings has been an attribute of the Sustainable Communities for Learning programme, and that's why a total of £286 million in capital maintenance allocations has been awarded to local authorities across Wales since 2018-19.

By way of example, since that time the programme has allocated £28.9 million of capital maintenance funding to help maintain the school estate in our capital city of Cardiff. Additionally, a further £2.7 million of capital maintenance funding has been allocated to Cardiff during the current financial year. My officials are working closely with Cardiff Council where we are aware of ongoing maintenance challenges, particularly with some of the older school buildings within the city.

As Jenny has indicated, I am familiar with one of the schools that she has described today and got the opportunity to visit Albany Primary School earlier this year. I was very grateful to the staff and the governors and the young people for their warm welcome. What particularly resonated with me was the opportunity to talk to the children about what it was like being in that school. Despite all the challenges, which I recognise are very real, what was really powerful was just how much they like being in their school and that really strong sense of belonging and connection with the school and what that meant to them. I am planning to meet with officials from Cardiff Council in the coming weeks so that I can further discuss the challenges faced by Albany Primary School and the other so-called scaffolding schools that Jenny has described in her debate.

If I can just say as well, in terms of voluntary aided schools, since 2014 over £26 million of Welsh Government capital grant has been awarded to voluntary aided schools through the capital repairs and maintenance—CRAMP—grant funding streams of the Sustainable Communities for Learning programme, and that support is being continued during the current financial year with a further allocation of £5 million for voluntary aided urgent repairs and £1.4 million for CRAMP. My officials are committed to working with delivery partners in the co-constructive approach that has been firmly established through the Sustainable Communities for Learning programme to ensure the maximum benefit is made of the funding made available.

I’m confident that, by combining modern amenities with historical preservation and refurbishment, nineteenth century school buildings or any other era buildings can continue to serve as vibrant educational spaces fit for the twenty-first century. Diolch yn fawr.

I thank the Cabinet Secretary, and that brings today's proceedings to a close.

Have a safe journey home and a lovely evening.