Y Cyfarfod Llawn
Plenary
01/05/2024Cynnwys
Contents
Yn y fersiwn ddwyieithog, mae’r golofn chwith yn cynnwys yr iaith a lefarwyd yn y cyfarfod. Mae’r golofn dde yn cynnwys cyfieithiad o’r areithiau hynny.
In the bilingual version, the left-hand column includes the language used during the meeting. The right-hand column includes a translation of those speeches.
Cyfarfu'r Senedd yn y Siambr a thrwy gynhadledd fideo am 13:30 gyda'r Llywydd (Elin Jones) yn y Gadair.
The Senedd met in the Chamber and by video-conference at 13:30 with the Llywydd (Elin Jones) in the Chair.
Prynhawn da a chroeso, bawb, i'r Cyfarfod Llawn. Yr eitem gyntaf y prynhawn yma yw'r cwestiynau i Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet dros yr Economi, Ynni a’r Gymraeg, ac mae'r cwestiwn cyntaf gan Delyth Jewell.
Good afternoon and welcome to this Plenary meeting. The first item this afternoon is questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Economy, Energy and Welsh Language, and the first question is from Delyth Jewell.
1. Pa drafodaethau mae’r Ysgrifennydd Cabinet wedi'u cynnal gyda Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet dros Addysg ynglŷn â chynnydd darpariaeth addysg Gymraeg yn y Cymoedd? OQ61017
1. What discussions has the Cabinet Secretary had with the Cabinet Secretary for Education regarding the progress of Welsh education provision in the Valleys? OQ61017
Rwyf wedi cwrdd gydag Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet dros Addysg ac mae hi’n gefnogol i’r gwaith gwych sydd eisoes wedi digwydd drwy gynlluniau strategol y Gymraeg mewn addysg, ac mae’n awyddus i adeiladu ar y gwaith da hwn. Bydd cynghorau lleol yn cyflwyno eu hadroddiadau blynyddol i Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet dros Addysg ddiwedd mis Gorffennaf.
I have met the Cabinet Secretary for Education and she is supportive of the great work that has already taken place through the Welsh in education strategic plans, and she is eager to build on this good work. Local councils will submit their annual reports to the Cabinet Secretary for Education at the end of July.
Diolch am hwnna. Os ydym ni am gyrraedd y targed o filiwn o siaradwyr Cymraeg erbyn 2050, bydd y Cymoedd yn hollbwysig, ond rydyn ni'n dal i aros am newyddion am yr ysgol gynradd cyfrwng Cymraeg arfaethedig ar gyfer ardal Bedwas, Tretomas a Machen, ac ymddengys bod cyngor Merthyr yn bwrw ymlaen gydag adnabod safle ar gyfer ysgol gynradd Gymraeg newydd heb gymryd i ystyriaeth y gwaith rhagorol sydd wedi'i wneud yn ddiweddar yn ardal y Gurnos gyda darpariaeth blynyddoedd cynnar. Jest dwy esiampl ydy'r rhain o'r heriau sydd yn wynebu rhieni lleol sydd yn ysu am ddanfon eu plant i ysgolion Cymraeg.
A fyddech chi, gydag Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet dros Addysg, yn fodlon cwrdd â fi a chynrychiolwyr Rhieni dros Addysg Gymraeg lleol i drafod pa gefnogaeth y gall y Llywodraeth ei rhoi i awdurdodau lleol ar draws y de-ddwyrain i wneud yn siŵr fod gan bawb y dewis i ddanfon eu plant i ysgolion Cymraeg?
Thank you for that. If we want to reach the target of a million Welsh speakers by 2050, the Valleys will be vital, but we are still waiting for news about the proposed Welsh-medium primary school for the Bedwas, Trethomas and Machen area, and it seems that Merthyr council is proceeding with identifying a site for a new Welsh primary school without taking into account the excellent work that has been done recently in the Gurnos area in terms of early years provision. These are just two examples of the challenges facing local parents who are desperate to send their children to Welsh language schools.
Would you, along with the Cabinet Secretary for Education, be willing to meet with me and representatives of the local RhAG group to discuss what support the Government can give to local authorities across the south-east to make sure that everyone has the option to send their children to a Welsh-medium school?
Wel, diolch i’r Aelod am y cwestiwn pellach hwnnw. Mae'n rhaid i mi ddweud fy mod yn siomedig nad oedd blodyn yn cael ei gynnig fel rhan o'r cwestiwn. [Chwerthin.] Ond mae’r pwynt y mae’r Aelod yn ei wneud yn gwbl deilwng ac mae’r cynnydd a’r brwdfrydedd dros addysg cyfrwng Cymraeg yn y Cymoedd yn rhywbeth sydd yn bleser i’w weld. Mae gan bob un o'r cynghorau, yn cynnwys y ddau wnaeth yr Aelod sôn amdanyn nhw, gynlluniau strategol sydd yn uchelgeisiol ac sydd, fel y mae hi'n sôn, yn cynnwys ymrwymiadau i agor ysgolion cynradd newydd. Mae'n bwysig bod hyn yn digwydd mewn ffordd sydd yn edrych ar yr impact ehangach o ran argaeledd daearyddol, ond hefyd o ran datblygiadau o ran lle mae pobl yn byw ac ati, fel bod pwrpas y cynlluniau strategol yn cael ei gyflawni yn y fersiwn fwyaf uchelgeisiol posibl o hynny.
Byddwn yn hapus iawn i gwrdd gyda'r Aelod i drafod hyn ymhellach. Byddwn i jest yn dweud mai'r ddau ddatblygiad rwy’n credu sydd yn galonogol iawn, ac rwy’n gobeithio y byddan nhw'n dwyn ffrwyth yn y pen draw, yw datblygiad pencampwyr hyrwyddo addysg cyfrwng Cymraeg yn y de-ddwyrain, sydd yn gwneud gwaith da i sicrhau bod pobl yn deall beth yw manteision a buddiannau addysg cyfrwng Cymraeg ar yr un llaw, ac, ar y llaw arall, y brwdfrydedd rŷn ni'n ei weld yn y de-ddwyrain, fel yr ydym yn ei weld ar draws Cymru, o ran y buddsoddiad mewn trochi hwyr. Mae'r ddau ddatblygiad yna, dwi'n credu, yn gyffrous iawn yn ei rhanbarth hi. Ond byddwn i'n hapus iawn i gwrdd â hi a gydag Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet dros Addysg.
Well, I thank the Member for that supplementary question. I have to say that I was disappointed that she didn't offer me a flower as part of the question. [Laughter.] But the point that the Member makes is entirely proper and the progress and the enthusiasm for Welsh-medium education in the Valleys is a pleasure to see. Every council, including the two that the Member mentioned, has strategic plans that are ambitious and do, as she mentioned, include commitments to open new primary schools. It is important that this happens in a way that considers the broader impact in terms of geographical availability, but also in terms of developments where people live so that the purpose of the strategic plans is achieved in the most ambitious way possible.
I would be more than happy to meet with the Member to discuss this further. I would just say that there are two developments that I think are very encouraging and that I hope will ultimately come to fruition, namely the development of champions for promoting Welsh-medium education in the south-east, who do good work to ensure that people understand the benefits and advantages of Welsh-medium education on the one hand, and, on the other hand, the enthusiasm that we're seeing in the south-east, as we're seeing across Wales, in terms of the investment in late immersion. I think that both of those developments are extremely exciting in her region. But I would be more than happy to meet with her and the education Cabinet Secretary.
Cabinet Secretary, it's my belief that in order to properly embed the learning and speaking of Welsh in communities, there needs to be a clear and well-advertised economic advantage for those to speak Welsh. Only through this will people invest and make every effort to encourage their children to speak Welsh. Graduate schemes and apprenticeships through the medium of Welsh are a great opportunity to inspire the next generation of workers to embrace the Welsh language as a skill that can help them in their working lives, particularly in key areas such as public service, in healthcare and in education provision, especially in early years learning. What steps are the Welsh Government taking to encourage the creation and uptake of graduate schemes and apprenticeships through the medium of Welsh, and what financial resources have you earmarked for this? Thank you.
Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet, er mwyn gwneud dysgu a siarad Cymraeg yn rhan annatod o'n cymunedau, rwy'n credu bod angen budd economaidd clir sydd wedi’i hysbysebu’n dda i siarad Cymraeg. Dim ond drwy hyn y bydd pobl yn buddsoddi ac yn gwneud pob ymdrech i annog eu plant i siarad Cymraeg. Mae cynlluniau graddedigion a phrentisiaethau drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg yn gyfle gwych i ysbrydoli’r genhedlaeth nesaf o weithwyr i gofleidio'r Gymraeg fel sgìl a all eu helpu yn eu bywydau gwaith, yn enwedig mewn meysydd allweddol megis gwasanaethau cyhoeddus, mewn gofal iechyd ac mewn darpariaeth addysg, yn enwedig addysg y blynyddoedd cynnar. Pa gamau y mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn eu cymryd i annog creu a defnydd o gynlluniau graddedigion a phrentisiaethau drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg, a pha adnoddau ariannol a glustnodwyd gennych ar gyfer hyn? Diolch.
I thank the Member for his question. I do agree with the point that it is important that we make available, through the medium of Welsh, the full range of educational opportunities for our young people, including work-based learning, apprenticeships and provision more broadly than that at the further education stage. The work of the Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol is really beginning to bear fruit, I think, in the increase in availability. It is still a significant piece of work—there is a long way to go before there is that widespread provision in all parts of Wales that we would all want to see. Some of those challenges are well understood and they're relating to the workforce, but some of it is about an expectation, often. And I was struck by the work of, I think, Coleg Llandrillo Menai, which they were talking to me about at the Eisteddfod last year, where they developed a mechanism and programme for individual staff members to be identifying these opportunities and bringing people to them in a really proactive way, which struck me as being a very productive way of going about it.
I would just say, in passing—I know this wasn't the main thrust of his question—that I'm not myself sure that the way we will encourage more and more people to learn Welsh is simply by talking about the economic imperative for it. There is an important element to that, but I think what we are learning is that people's relationship to the language is much more than transactional. I'm not suggesting he was making that point, but there is a sense of warmth and welcome towards the language that I think goes beyond what is the particular individual economic benefit to a learner. But it is important, as he says, to make sure that those opportunities are available, because we want more people to be working through the medium of Welsh in our workplaces.
Diolch i’r Aelod am ei gwestiwn. Cytunaf â’r pwynt ei bod yn bwysig inni sicrhau bod yr ystod lawn o gyfleoedd addysgol ar gael drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg i’n pobl ifanc gan gynnwys dysgu seiliedig ar waith, prentisiaethau a darpariaeth fwy cyffredinol nag ar y cam addysg bellach. Credaf fod gwaith y Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol yn dechrau dwyn ffrwyth go iawn o ran y cynnydd mewn argaeledd. Mae llawer iawn o waith i'w wneud o hyd—mae cryn dipyn o ffordd i fynd cyn bod y ddarpariaeth eang y byddai pob un ohonom yn dymuno'i gweld ar gael ym mhob rhan o Gymru. Mae rhai o'r heriau hynny wedi eu deall yn dda ac maent yn ymwneud â'r gweithlu, ond mae rhai ohonynt yn aml yn ymwneud â disgwyliad. Ac rwy'n llawn edmygedd o waith Coleg Llandrillo Menai, y buont yn siarad â mi amdano yn yr Eisteddfod y llynedd, lle gwnaethant ddatblygu mecanwaith a rhaglen i aelodau unigol o staff nodi’r cyfleoedd hyn a dod â phobl atynt mewn ffordd wirioneddol ragweithiol, a oedd yn fy nharo fel ffordd gynhyrchiol iawn o fynd ati.
Gyda llaw, hoffwn ddweud—gwn nad dyma oedd prif bwynt ei gwestiwn—nad wyf yn siŵr mai’r ffordd y byddwn yn annog mwy a mwy o bobl i ddysgu Cymraeg yw drwy sôn am reidrwydd economaidd hynny yn unig. Mae elfen bwysig i hynny, ond credaf mai’r hyn rydym yn ei ddysgu yw bod perthynas pobl â’r iaith yn llawer mwy na fel trafodiad. Nid wyf yn awgrymu ei fod yn gwneud y pwynt hwnnw, ond mae yna ymdeimlad o gynhesrwydd a chroeso tuag at yr iaith sy'n mynd y tu hwnt i'r hyn sydd o fudd economaidd unigol penodol i ddysgwr. Ond mae’n bwysig sicrhau, fel y dywed, fod y cyfleoedd hynny ar gael, gan ein bod am i fwy o bobl weithio drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg yn ein gweithleoedd.
2. Pa asesiad y mae'r Ysgrifennydd Cabinet wedi'i wneud o ddibynadwyedd data arolwg llafurlu'r Swyddfa Ystadegau Gwladol mewn perthynas â Chymru? OQ61009
2. What assessment has the Cabinet Secretary made of the reliability of the Office for National Statistics labour force survey data in relation to Wales? OQ61009
Mae Llywodraeth Cymru wedi codi consýrn am ansawdd data yr arolwg o ran data dros Gymru am gyfnod. Mae'r ONS wedi cyflwyno gwelliannau dros y misoedd diweddar, ond dylid defnyddio data wrth ochr trends mewn mesurau eraill er mwyn cael darlun eglur o’r farchnad lafur yng Nghymru.
The Welsh Government has raised concerns about the quality of the survey in terms of data for Wales for some time. The ONS has introduced some improvements over recent months, but data should be used alongside the trends in other measures to gain a clearer picture of the Welsh labour market.
Diolch i'r Ysgrifennydd Cabinet. Mae'r problemau gyda'r data wedi parhau nawr am fisoedd, ac rydyn ni newydd glywed oddi wrth yr ONS na fydd y system newydd y maen nhw'n mynd i'w rhoi yn ei lle yna tan fis Medi nesaf. Ac mae hwnna'n creu problemau mawr i'r Llywodraeth wrth drio cynllunio polisïau i helpu'r economi yma yng Nghymru am y dyfodol.
I thank the Cabinet Secretary. The problems with the data have continued for months now, and we've just heard from the ONS that the new system that they are going to put in place won't be there until next September. And that creates major problems for the Government in terms of trying to plan for policies to help the economy here in Wales in the future.
Does the Cabinet Secretary not agree that behind these difficulties lies the impact of austerity on the ONS itself, an organisation of very high repute, which plays a very important part in the public service infrastructure of south-east Wales, but which has been subject to repeated cuts by the UK Government? Isn't this just yet another example of a UK Government that is penny-wise but pound-foolish in leaving the whole economy without the data it needs to make sensible decisions for the future?
Onid yw Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet yn cytuno mai’r hyn sy'n gyfrifol am yr anawsterau hyn yw effaith cyni ar y Swyddfa Ystadegau Gwladol ei hun, sefydliad a chanddo enw da iawn, sy’n chwarae rhan bwysig iawn yn seilwaith gwasanaethau cyhoeddus de-ddwyrain Cymru, ond sydd wedi dioddef toriadau cyson gan Lywodraeth y DU? Onid enghraifft arall eto fyth yw hyn o Lywodraeth y DU yn gwario swllt er ennill ceiniog wrth adael yr economi gyfan heb y data sydd ei angen arni i wneud penderfyniadau synhwyrol ar gyfer y dyfodol?
Gaf i jest cytuno â beth ddywedodd yr Aelod ar gychwyn ei gwestiwn? Yn y cyfnod sydd ohoni, mae'n rhaid i ni sicrhau, fel Llywodraeth, fel y mae dyletswydd ar bob llywodraeth, ein bod ni'n deall yn union beth yw impact ac effaith yr holl bethau rŷn ni'n ceisio gwneud, fel bod yr arian cyhoeddus prin sydd gyda ni yn cael ei ddefnyddio yn y ffordd fwyaf effeithiol a'n bod ni'n deall hynny.
May I just agree with what the Member said at the beginning of his question? At this current time, we must ensure, as a Government, as all governments are duty-bound to do, that we understand exactly what the impact of all the things we seek to do is, so that the little public money we have is used in the most effective and efficient way possible and that we understand that.
I think that the Member is absolutely right to say that, if you look at the situation that the ONS finds itself in over recent years, for each of the last two years, its cash funding has fallen, and it looks to a further reduction, in nominal terms, in its budget between the last financial year and the one that we are in now. So, these are challenging circumstances, I think, in which the ONS has to work, and we look to it to meet the needs of Wales, so that it can support the work that we do as a Government.
As the Member says, it has been undertaking a programme of transformation. We do look forward to the renewed data sets that will become available, because they are so essential. Welsh Government officials are working very closely and collaboratively with the ONS, and Members will have seen what the chief statistician has had to say about the quality of the data recently. But I think it goes without saying that an ONS that was properly funded and had access to the kinds of resources that we would wish it to see would be able to better discharge the responsibilities that I know the chief statistician is keen that they should be able to as well.
Credaf fod yr Aelod yn llygad ei le wrth ddweud, os edrychwch ar y sefyllfa y mae’r Swyddfa Ystadegau Gwladol wedi bod ynddi dros y blynyddoedd diwethaf, yn y ddwy flynedd ddiwethaf, fod ei chyllid wedi gostwng, ac mae’n wynebu gostyngiad pellach, mewn termau nominal, yn ei chyllideb rhwng y flwyddyn ariannol ddiwethaf a’r un rydym ynddi bellach. Felly, credaf fod y rhain yn amgylchiadau heriol y mae’n rhaid i’r Swyddfa Ystadegau Gwladol weithio ynddynt, ac rydym yn disgwyl iddi ddiwallu anghenion Cymru, fel y gall gefnogi’r gwaith a wnawn fel Llywodraeth.
Fel y dywed yr Aelod, mae wedi bod yn cynnal rhaglen drawsnewid. Edrychwn ymlaen at y setiau data newydd a fydd ar gael, gan eu bod mor hanfodol. Mae swyddogion Llywodraeth Cymru yn gweithio’n agos iawn ac ar y cyd â’r Swyddfa Ystadegau Gwladol, a bydd yr Aelodau wedi gweld yr hyn y mae’r prif ystadegydd wedi’i ddweud ynglŷn ag ansawdd y data yn ddiweddar. Ond ni chredaf fod angen dweud y byddai Swyddfa Ystadegau Gwladol sydd wedi’i hariannu’n briodol ac sydd â mynediad at y mathau o adnoddau y byddem yn dymuno iddi gael mynediad atynt yn gallu cyflawni’n well y cyfrifoldebau y gwn fod y prif ystadegydd yn awyddus iddynt allu eu cyflawni hefyd.
I, like the Member for Cardiff West, understand how reliable statistical data is and how vital it is for policy making. The former Minister for Economy, now First Minister, outlined in 2021, I believe, that the Welsh Government had been involved in improving ONS data for Wales. So, we're now almost three years on from that expected work, and it appears that there are still great concerns about the data, and you've alluded to some of the work, Cabinet Secretary, that's going on. But given the earlier answer, can you share what further progress has been made over the last three years by the Welsh Government to ensure that there is reliable ONS data for Wales?
Yn union fel yr Aelod dros Orllewin Caerdydd, rwy’n deall pa mor ddibynadwy yw data ystadegol a pha mor hanfodol ydyw ar gyfer llunio polisïau. Amlinellodd cyn Weinidog yr Economi, sydd bellach yn Brif Weinidog, yn 2021 rwy'n credu, fod Llywodraeth Cymru wedi bod yn ymwneud â'r gwaith o wella data'r Swyddfa Ystadegau Gwladol ar gyfer Cymru. Felly, mae bron i dair blynedd wedi bod ers y gwaith disgwyliedig hwnnw, ac ymddengys bod pryderon dwys am y data o hyd, ac rydych chi wedi cyfeirio at rywfaint o'r gwaith sy'n mynd rhagddo, Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet. Ond o ystyried yr ateb cynharach, a allwch chi rannu pa gynnydd pellach a wnaed dros y tair blynedd diwethaf gan Lywodraeth Cymru i sicrhau bod data dibynadwy gan y Swyddfa Ystadegau Gwladol ar gyfer Cymru?
Well, Welsh Government officials work with the ONS, but this is a challenge that is, as the former First Minister way saying, the product of resource pressures on the ONS, which I'm sure all of us would have an incredible amount of sympathy with. But we need those data to be current and reliable, and I do welcome the steps that the ONS has taken and has been able to take. So, in the last six months, it's returned to face-to-face interviewing. It's been able to increase its re-contact rates. One of the issues at the heart of this is the contact rate and the ability to secure engagement with it. It's reintroduced a boost to the LFS sample from the start of this year, and it's reinstated the majority of its statistics, but it does recognise that there are still ongoing challenges, and its advice is now that we should be cautious in interpreting short-term changes in the data, especially when we look at more detailed breakdowns, which would apply to a nation the size of Wales. That becomes even less reliable than the UK-wide picture, for reasons which we will understand.
So, their recommendation is that we continue to make use of the full range—the broader range—of labour market data sources when we're forming a judgment on the UK labour market. And the Member may know that if you look at His Majesty's Revenue and Customs data, the job starts, and a range of other data, the trends, actually, in Wales, more closely mirror those in the UK than would seem to be the case based on the last labour force survey data.
Wel, mae swyddogion Llywodraeth Cymru yn gweithio gyda’r Swyddfa Ystadegau Gwladol, ond mae hon yn her sydd, fel y dywed y cyn Brif Weinidog, yn deillio o bwysau ar adnoddau'r Swyddfa Ystadegau Gwladol, ac rwy’n siŵr y byddai gan bob un ohonom lawer iawn o gydymdeimlad â hynny. Ond mae angen i’r data hwnnw fod yn gyfredol ac yn ddibynadwy, ac rwy'n croesawu'r camau y mae’r Swyddfa Ystadegau Gwladol wedi’u cymryd ac wedi gallu eu cymryd. Felly, yn ystod y chwe mis diwethaf, mae wedi ailddechrau cynnal cyfweliadau wyneb yn wyneb. Mae wedi gallu cynyddu ei chyfraddau ailgysylltu. Un o’r materion sydd wrth wraidd hyn yw’r gyfradd gysylltu a’r gallu i sicrhau ymgysylltiad â hi. Mae wedi ailgyflwyno samplau manylach o'r arolwg o'r llafurlu o ddechrau’r flwyddyn hon, ac mae wedi adfer y rhan fwyaf o’i hystadegau, ond mae’n cydnabod bod heriau parhaus o hyd, a’i chyngor bellach yw y dylem fod yn ofalus wrth ddehongli newidiadau tymor byr yn y data, yn enwedig pan edrychwn ar ddadansoddiadau manylach, a fyddai’n berthnasol i genedl o faint Cymru. Mae hynny hyd yn oed yn llai dibynadwy na’r darlun ar gyfer y DU gyfan, am resymau y byddwn yn eu deall.
Felly, eu hargymhelliad yw ein bod yn parhau i ddefnyddio'r ystod lawn—yr ystod ehangach—o ffynonellau data'r farchnad lafur pan fyddwn yn ffurfio barn ar farchnad lafur y DU. Ac efallai y bydd yr Aelod yn gwybod, os edrychwch ar ddata Cyllid a Thollau Ei Fawrhydi, nifer y swyddi newydd, ac ystod o ddata arall, fod y tueddiadau yng Nghymru, yn adlewyrchu tueddiadau'r DU yn agosach nag y byddai data arolwg diwethaf y gweithlu yn ei awgrymu.
Cwestiynau nawr gan lefarwyr y pleidiau. Llefarydd y Ceidwadwyr, Samuel Kurtz.
Questions now from the party spokespeople. The Conservative spokesperson, Samuel Kurtz.
Diolch, Llywydd. Cabinet Secretary, last week you addressed an event that I sponsored here in the Senedd for RenewableUK Cymru, and my thanks to you for that. The event helped highlight the amazing renewable energy opportunities that Wales has, bringing together businesses, organisations and stakeholders who share in that common goal. What the event also highlighted was the potential barriers that currently sit between us and delivering and realising these renewable opportunities, which, for businesses across the south Wales industrial cluster, for example, aren't just opportunities, but are a necessity. My offer to you to work collaboratively on the delivery on renewable energy remains a genuine one.
While we understand the need to move forward towards renewables from an environmental perspective, we can also stress the importance of employment opportunities as we realise our energy potential. But, given that the United Nations has said that 2023 was the year with the most conflicts since the second world war, and defence Secretary, Grant Shapps, has said that we're moving from a post-war to a pre-war world, the security of our energy is quickly increasing in priority. So, is your Government taking energy security seriously, given the rise of global tensions, and if it is, how is that being felt in the delivery of energy projects in and off the coast of Wales?
Diolch, Lywydd. Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet, yr wythnos diwethaf, fe wnaethoch annerch digwyddiad a noddais yma yn y Senedd ar gyfer RenewableUK Cymru, a hoffwn ddiolch i chi am hynny. Helpodd y digwyddiad i dynnu sylw at y cyfleoedd ynni adnewyddadwy anhygoel sydd gan Gymru, gan ddod ynghyd â busnesau, sefydliadau a rhanddeiliaid sy’n rhannu’r nod cyffredin hwnnw. Yr hyn a amlygodd y digwyddiad hefyd oedd y rhwystrau posibl ar hyn o bryd a fyddai'n ein hatal rhag cyflawni a gwireddu’r cyfleoedd ynni adnewyddadwy hyn, sydd, i fusnesau ar draws clwstwr diwydiannol de Cymru, er enghraifft, nid yn unig yn gyfleoedd, ond yn anghenraid. Mae fy nghynnig i chi i weithio ar y cyd ar ddarpariaeth ynni adnewyddadwy yn parhau i fod yn un diffuant.
Er ein bod yn deall yr angen i symud ymlaen tuag at ynni adnewyddadwy o safbwynt amgylcheddol, gallwn hefyd bwysleisio pwysigrwydd cyfleoedd cyflogaeth wrth inni wireddu ein potensial ynni. Ond o ystyried bod y Cenhedloedd Unedig wedi dweud mai 2023 oedd y flwyddyn â'r lefelau uchaf o wrthdaro ers yr ail ryfel byd, a bod yr Ysgrifennydd amddiffyn, Grant Shapps, wedi dweud ein bod yn newid o fyd ôl-ryfel i fyd cyn-ryfel, mae diogeledd ein hynni yn prysur gynyddu o ran blaenoriaeth. Felly, a yw eich Llywodraeth o ddifrif ynghylch diogeledd ynni, o ystyried y cynnydd mewn tensiynau byd-eang, ac os ydyw, sut mae hynny'n cael ei deimlo wrth gyflawni prosiectau ynni ar ac oddi ar arfordir Cymru?
Well, I thank the Member for the invitation that he gave me to speak at the recent RenewableUK conference, and I felt that there was a great level of optimism in the discussion that evening amongst the participants, and a sense of practical engagement with what we want to do as a Government, and a very honest discussion about how we could work even better together, which is the kind of relationship that you want when there is such a big opportunity on the horizon.
I think it's also important, by the way, from an environmental perspective, to reach our climate goals and, critically, to do that in way that shows to people that that ambition brings opportunity as well as the need for, perhaps, less popular changes. And I think that rounded picture is absolutely critical, so that is why we are so committed to making sure that we do everything we can to realise the opportunity that is just on the horizon for us. I think he is right to say, unless they are addressed, there would be challenges in the path of reaching the ambition that we have. And there are some challenges that are in our hands to address, and some that are in the hands of the UK Government to address, and I think we need to look at the full picture. So, from our perspective, our focus is on making sure that we have the net-zero skills and the talent pipeline able to do the range of roles that the sector looks to us to do. And there's some very good practice, by the way—as he will have known from the other evening—where developers are working directly with further education colleges, including in his part of Wales, with great success, to identify the roles, the skills that they need, and so the provision that needs to be made available locally.
So, there are skills, there's planning, there's a mapping of the supply chain, which we have under way, so that we have a granular understanding of strengths and areas for improvement, and then, crucially, that joined-up way of working across Government so that there's a common focus on this. And we look to the UK Government to improve its investment in the grid, to drive that forward with greater urgency and to create that longer term policy stability. I think if we can all play our part in that way, there is a real opportunity for Wales to absolutely capitalise on this renewable future.
Wel, diolch i’r Aelod am y gwahoddiad a roddodd imi siarad yng nghynhadledd RenewableUK yn ddiweddar, ac roeddwn yn teimlo bod lefel fawr o optimistiaeth yn y drafodaeth y noson honno ymhlith y cyfranogwyr, ac ymdeimlad o ymgysylltu ymarferol â’r hyn rydym am ei wneud fel Llywodraeth, a thrafodaeth onest iawn am sut y gallem weithio hyd yn oed yn well gyda’n gilydd, sef y math o berthynas yr ydych am ei chael pan fo cyfle mor fawr ar y gorwel.
Rwy’n credu ei bod hefyd yn bwysig, gyda llaw, o safbwynt amgylcheddol, ein bod yn cyflawni ein nodau hinsawdd, ac yn hollbwysig, yn gwneud hynny mewn ffordd sy’n dangos i bobl fod yr uchelgais hwnnw’n darparu cyfleoedd yn ogystal â’r angen, efallai, am newidiadau llai poblogaidd. A chredaf fod y darlun cyflawn hwnnw’n gwbl hanfodol, felly dyna pam ein bod mor ymrwymedig i sicrhau ein bod yn gwneud popeth a allwn i wireddu’r cyfle sydd ar y gorwel i ni. Rwy'n credu ei fod yn llygad ei le yn dweud, oni bai yr eir i'r afael â nhw, y byddem yn wynebu heriau wrth geisio cyflawni'r uchelgais sydd gennym. Ac mae rhai heriau yn ein dwylo ni i fynd i'r afael â nhw, a rhai yn nwylo Llywodraeth y DU i fynd i'r afael â nhw, a chredaf fod angen inni edrych ar y darlun cyflawn. Felly, o'n safbwynt ni, rydym yn canolbwyntio ar sicrhau bod gennym y sgiliau sero net a'r llif talent i allu cyflawni'r ystod o rolau y mae'r sector yn dibynnu arnom i'w cyflawni. Ac mae yna arferion da iawn i'w cael, gyda llaw—fel y bydd wedi nodi y noson o'r blaen—lle mae datblygwyr yn gweithio'n uniongyrchol gyda cholegau addysg bellach yn llwyddiannus iawn, gan gynnwys yn ei ran ef o Gymru, ar nodi'r rolau, y sgiliau sydd eu hangen arnynt, ac felly, y ddarpariaeth y mae angen iddi fod ar gael yn lleol.
Felly, mae sgiliau, mae cynllunio, mae'r gwaith o fapio'r gadwyn gyflenwi, sydd ar y gweill gennym, fel bod gennym ddealltwriaeth fanwl o gryfderau a meysydd i'w gwella, ac yna, yn hollbwysig, ffordd gydgysylltiedig o weithio ar draws y Llywodraeth, fel bod ffocws cyffredin ar hyn. Ac edrychwn at Lywodraeth y DU i wella ei buddsoddiad yn y grid, i fwrw ymlaen â hynny gyda mwy o frys ac i greu sefydlogrwydd polisi mwy hirdymor. Os gall pob un ohonom chwarae ein rhan yn y ffordd honno, credaf fod cyfle gwirioneddol i Gymru fanteisio ar y dyfodol sydd gan ynni adnewyddadwy i'w gynnig.
Thank you for that, Cabinet Secretary. It is important that energy and the economy are talked about together, because of the importance one has for the other. A strong economy pays for our public services. A strong economy is one that has plenty of good-quality, high-paying jobs. The energy sector, as the Cabinet Secretary has mentioned, both in the traditional sense and with renewables, is a source of good-quality, high-paying jobs. But governments can't make the jobs. What they can do is create the right environment for those jobs to be made. Fundamental to that, as the Cabinet Secretary outlined, is skills and ensuring that those going through education, training and apprenticeships have the right skills so they can deliver not just now, but the projects of the future too. I've raised this previously, but I really want to drill down into it a little bit more. As a former education Minister and now economy and energy Cabinet Secretary, you should have a firm grasp on what skills future workforces will need to succeed and thrive. You've mentioned mapping of the supply chain, but have you conducted a mapping exercise to fully understand where the demand for skills will come from, in what industries specifically, and, if so, are you content on the current projections that we are developing enough skills here in Wales to meet our ambitions in the future?
Diolch, Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet. Mae'n bwysig sôn am ynni a'r economi gyda'i gilydd, oherwydd pwysigrwydd y naill ar gyfer y llall. Mae economi gref yn talu am ein gwasanaethau cyhoeddus. Mae economi gref yn un sydd â digon o swyddi o ansawdd da sy’n talu’n dda. Mae’r sector ynni, fel y mae Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet wedi’i grybwyll, yn yr ystyr draddodiadol ac o ran ynni adnewyddadwy, yn ffynhonnell o swyddi o ansawdd da sy'n talu'n dda. Ond ni all llywodraethau greu'r swyddi. Yr hyn y gallant ei wneud yw creu’r amgylchedd cywir i’r swyddi hynny gael eu creu. Yr hyn sy'n allweddol i hynny, fel yr amlinellodd Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet, yw sgiliau a sicrhau bod y rhai sy’n ymgymryd ag addysg, hyfforddiant a phrentisiaethau yn meddu ar y sgiliau cywir fel y gallant gyflawni nid yn unig nawr, ond ar brosiectau'r dyfodol hefyd. Rwyf wedi codi hyn o'r blaen, ond rwy'n wirioneddol awyddus i drafod y mater ymhellach. Fel cyn-Weinidog addysg ac Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet dros yr economi ac ynni erbyn hyn, dylai fod gennych ddealltwriaeth gadarn o ba sgiliau y bydd eu hangen ar weithluoedd yn y dyfodol i lwyddo a ffynnu. Rydych chi wedi sôn am fapio’r gadwyn gyflenwi, ond a ydych chi wedi cynnal ymarfer mapio i ddeall yn iawn o ble y daw’r galw am sgiliau, ym mha ddiwydiannau’n benodol, ac os felly, a ydych chi'n fodlon ar y rhagamcanion presennol sydd gennym ein bod yn datblygu digon o sgiliau yma yng Nghymru i gyflawni ein huchelgeisiau yn y dyfodol?
I know he will have seen and read the net-zero skills action plan and will know that that has been out for consultation. I expect to be able to publish the responses to that in the coming weeks, very imminently, so that will be able to provide him with the reassurance that he very reasonably seeks.
One of the challenges in this space is the speed at which technologies are changing and getting employers to a place where they can understand the impact of that on their workplace, and that is understandably challenging in a rapidly moving environment. But I gave you the example earlier of very successful good practice, as it happens, between RWE and a college in your part of the world and in north Wales, where there's been a very clear connection between the commitment of the developer to try and make sure that people engaged in working on the projects are from the local labour market, and, then, working with the local college to say, 'This is the skill set that we need, these are the qualifications that we need' and that leading to that very integrated level of provision. So, that is, I think, a model that is a successful model. But, as he says, it's critical to know what the future needs of the economy are not today, but also in five years and perhaps even beyond that. And I am sure he will find some comfort in the consultation responses on the net-zero action plan when that's published shortly.
Gwn y bydd wedi gweld a darllen y cynllun gweithredu sgiliau sero net a bod y cynllun hwnnw wedi bod yn destun ymgynghoriad. Rwy'n disgwyl gallu cyhoeddi’r ymatebion iddo yn yr wythnosau nesaf, yn fuan iawn, fel y gall hynny roi’r sicrwydd y mae’n ei geisio, yn gwbl rhesymol.
Un o’r heriau yn y cyswllt hwn yw pa mor gyflym y mae technolegau’n newid, a sicrhau bod cyflogwyr mewn sefyllfa lle gallant ddeall effaith hynny ar eu gweithle, ac mae hynny, yn gwbl ddealladwy, yn heriol mewn amgylchedd sy’n newid yn gyflym. Ond rhoddais enghraifft i chi yn gynharach o arfer da llwyddiannus iawn, fel y mae'n digwydd, rhwng RWE a choleg yn eich rhan chi o'r byd ac yn y gogledd, lle bu cysylltiad clir iawn rhwng ymrwymiad y datblygwr i geisio sicrhau bod pobl sy’n gweithio ar y prosiectau yn dod o’r farchnad lafur leol, ac yna, gweithio gyda’r coleg lleol i ddweud, 'Dyma’r sgiliau sydd eu hangen arnom, dyma’r cymwysterau sydd eu hangen arnom' a hynny wedyn yn arwain at lefel integredig iawn o ddarpariaeth. Felly, credaf fod hwnnw'n fodel llwyddiannus. Ond fel y dywed, mae'n hollbwysig gwybod beth yw anghenion yr economi yn y dyfodol nid heddiw, ond hefyd ymhen pum mlynedd, ac efallai y tu hwnt i hynny hyd yn oed. Ac rwy’n siŵr y caiff gysur o'r ymatebion i’r ymgynghoriad ar y cynllun gweithredu sero net pan gaiff ei gyhoeddi cyn bo hir.
Last week, in your statement, you announced what you plan to do to turn the Welsh economy around with the levers that you have here in Wales. But, at the same time, this Welsh Government is actively stifling the Welsh economy: failure to implement the same level of business rates here in Wales is hurting our high streets and small and medium-sized enterprises; the 182-night policy for furnished holiday lets is impacting tourism and hospitality business across Wales; and the sustainable farming scheme could cost 5,500 jobs and a £199 million hit to the Welsh economy. In fact, Welsh Labour's policies are so bad that, in 2023, the average salary in Northern Ireland outpaced Wales, and they didn't even have a functioning Government. Welsh Labour are nothing more than a Jekyll and Hyde Government—saying the right things, but when it comes to the crunch it's their policies that are keeping Wales poorer. So, Cabinet Secretary, how are you going to reverse the trend of the last 25 years and improve the economy of Wales?
Yr wythnos diwethaf, yn eich datganiad, fe gyhoeddoch chi yr hyn rydych chi'n bwriadu ei wneud i weddnewid economi Cymru gyda’r ysgogiadau sydd gennych yma yng Nghymru. Ond ar yr un pryd, mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn mynd ati'n weithredol i fygu economi Cymru: mae methu cyflwyno'r un lefel o ardrethi busnes yma yng Nghymru yn amharu ar ein strydoedd mawr a mentrau bach a chanolig; mae’r polisi 182 noson ar gyfer llety gwyliau wedi’i ddodrefnu yn effeithio ar fusnesau twristiaeth a lletygarwch ledled Cymru; a gallai'r cynllun ffermio cynaliadwy gostio 5,500 o swyddi ac arwain at ergyd o £199 miliwn i economi Cymru. Mewn gwirionedd, mae polisïau Llafur Cymru mor ddrwg, yn 2023, fel bod y cyflog cyfartalog yng Ngogledd Iwerddon yn uwch nag yng Nghymru, ac nid oedd ganddynt Lywodraeth weithredol, hyd yn oed. Nid yw Llafur Cymru yn ddim mwy na Llywodraeth Jekyll a Hyde—maent yn dweud y pethau iawn, ond yn y pen draw, eu polisïau nhw sy’n cadw Cymru’n dlotach. Felly, Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet, sut rydych chi'n mynd i wrthdroi tuedd y 25 mlynedd diwethaf, a gwella economi Cymru?
As a Conservative, I know he has probably more knowledge than I have about a non-functioning Government, because we look at what happens over the border, and it's a matter of chaos every day. There will be some people in the Chamber who regret the next statement. Wales is not an independent country, and what we see is the product of 14 years of Conservative mismanagement in Westminster. What we want is a Government there able to work with us here in Wales on our priorities to support the economy, investing in renewables, which we've just been talking about, and having, for the first time in 14 years, an industrial strategy that puts the well-being of the nation first. It's about time we had that kind of Government, and it won't be from his party.
Fel Ceidwadwr, gwn fod ganddo fwy o wybodaeth nag sydd gennyf i, mae'n debyg, am Lywodraeth anweithredol, oherwydd edrychwn ar yr hyn sy’n digwydd dros y ffin, ac mae’n anhrefn bob dydd. Bydd rhai pobl yn y Siambr yn gresynu at y datganiad nesaf. Nid yw Cymru’n wlad annibynnol, ac mae’r hyn a welwn yn ganlyniad 14 mlynedd o gamreoli gan y Ceidwadwyr yn San Steffan. Yr hyn a ddymunwn yw Llywodraeth yno sy'n gallu gweithio gyda ni yma yng Nghymru ar ein blaenoriaethau i gefnogi’r economi, buddsoddi mewn ynni adnewyddadwy, fel rydym newydd ei drafod, a chael strategaeth ddiwydiannol, am y tro cyntaf ers 14 mlynedd, sy'n rhoi lles y genedl yn gyntaf. Mae’n hen bryd inni gael Llywodraeth felly, ac nid gan ei blaid ef y cawn hynny.
Llefarydd Plaid Cymru, Luke Fletcher.
Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Luke Fletcher.
Diolch, Llywydd. Sticking with the theme of looking at your statement last week, one of the priorities you set out, Cabinet Secretary, was improving productivity. That's very welcome, as I said at the time, but how are we going to do it?
Diolch, Lywydd. Gan gadw at y thema o edrych ar eich datganiad yr wythnos diwethaf, un o’r blaenoriaethau a nodwyd gennych, Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet, oedd gwella cynhyrchiant. Mae hynny i'w groesawu'n fawr, fel y dywedais ar y pryd, ond sut y gwnawn ni hynny?
The context for the priorities I outlined last week was this: we have ambitions as a Government, which are set out in our economic mission, and they're about ensuring a just transition to a sustainable future, giving young people opportunities, investing in that skills and innovation that we know we need to do in order to realise our ambition for the economy, and working with our partners in all parts of Wales on a more focused number of priorities that work for their regions and for the nation. So, that's the broad context.
What I was outlining last week was the lens that I will bring to bear in terms of priority and about delivering that larger Labour vision. Productivity is important in that, because we know that there's a strong correlation between productivity and wage levels in most economies. As a devolved Government, not all levers are in our hands to be able to influence that. As a country that is largely rural, there are challenges that we know that come as a consequence of that from a productivity point of view. But there are things that we can do and that are in our hands, even in the headwinds of a macro-economic policy that is doing everything it can to undermine that, which we have at the UK Government level.
The two things that classically we talk about are investment in skills, which is absolutely fundamental, and an investment in infrastructure, which we know helps create a more productive economy. But we also know that if we invest in innovation, if we support employees in businesses to be thinking about new ways of delivering what they deliver—innovation at an employee level—we can help with strengthening leadership in some of our businesses. Perhaps some of our smaller businesses find it more challenging to be able to provide that kind of support and training for their senior people. What can we do to support those businesses that trade with others to develop better digital skills?
So, there are specific things that we can do, and that was the focus I was bringing to my statement last week, looking at all the levers that we have—through Business Wales, the development bank, and the other interventions that we have, through that lens of productivity—knowing that, in the long term, that is what will help us raise the wages of the Welsh workforce, which is something that we all want to see.
Cyd-destun y blaenoriaethau a amlinellais yr wythnos diwethaf oedd hyn: mae gennym uchelgeisiau fel Llywodraeth, sydd wedi’u nodi yn ein cenhadaeth economaidd, ac maent yn ymwneud â sicrhau pontio teg i ddyfodol cynaliadwy, rhoi cyfleoedd i bobl ifanc, buddsoddi yn y sgiliau a'r arloesedd y gwyddom fod angen inni ei wneud er mwyn gwireddu ein huchelgais ar gyfer yr economi, a gweithio gyda’n partneriaid ym mhob rhan o Gymru ar nifer fwy penodol o flaenoriaethau sy’n gweithio ar ran eu rhanbarthau a'r genedl. Felly, dyna'r cyd-destun eang.
Yr hyn roeddwn yn ei amlinellu'r wythnos diwethaf oedd y lens y byddaf yn ei defnyddio mewn perthynas â blaenoriaethau a gwireddu’r weledigaeth Lafur ehangach honno. Mae cynhyrchiant yn bwysig yn hynny o beth, gan y gwyddom fod cydberthynas gref rhwng cynhyrchiant a lefelau cyflog yn y rhan fwyaf o economïau. Fel Llywodraeth ddatganoledig, nid yw pob ysgogiad yn ein dwylo ni i allu dylanwadu ar hynny. Fel gwlad wledig iawn, gwyddom fod hynny'n peri heriau o safbwynt cynhyrchiant. Ond mae pethau y gallwn eu gwneud ac sydd yn ein dwylo ni, hyd yn oed yn wyneb polisi macro-economaidd sy'n gwneud popeth yn ei allu i danseilio hynny, fel sydd gennym ar lefel Llywodraeth y DU.
Y ddau beth y siaradwn amdanynt fel arfer yw buddsoddi mewn sgiliau, sy’n hollbwysig, a buddsoddi mewn seilwaith, y gwyddom ei fod yn helpu i greu economi fwy cynhyrchiol. Ond gwyddom hefyd, os byddwn yn buddsoddi mewn arloesi, os ydym yn cefnogi cyflogeion mewn busnesau i feddwl am ffyrdd newydd o gyflawni'r hyn y maent yn ei gyflawni—arloesi ar lefel cyflogai—y gallwn helpu i gryfhau arweinyddiaeth yn rhai o'n busnesau. Efallai fod rhai o’n busnesau llai yn ei chael hi’n fwy heriol i allu darparu’r math hwnnw o gymorth a hyfforddiant i’w huwch swyddogion. Beth y gallwn ei wneud i gefnogi’r busnesau hynny sy’n masnachu ag eraill i ddatblygu gwell sgiliau digidol?
Felly, mae pethau penodol y gallwn eu gwneud, a dyna oedd ffocws fy natganiad yr wythnos diwethaf, gan edrych ar yr holl ysgogiadau sydd gennym—drwy Busnes Cymru, y banc datblygu, a'r ymyriadau eraill sydd gennym, drwy'r lens gynhyrchiant honno—gan wybod, yn y tymor hir, mai dyna fydd yn ein helpu i godi cyflogau gweithlu Cymru, sy'n rhywbeth y mae pob un ohonom yn dymuno ei weld.
It's good to hear in your response an emphasis on employee-led innovation. The reason why I decided to look at productivity today is because there needs to be a recognition, doesn't there, that the world of work has changed. Pursuing productivity can sometimes inadvertently lead to a detrimental impact on the workforce itself. What do I mean by this? Well, if I was to use a very simplistic and blunt example, if you wanted to improve productivity in a very quick way, in a very arguably effective way, you'd automate everything, wouldn't you? I'm of course not suggesting that is Government policy, but it does paint a very easy illustrative image of where there's a potential contradiction when it comes to improving productivity. So, really, when we're looking at increases in productivity, we also need to look at how then we put policies in place to ensure that we mitigate any potential negative impact that productivity gains may have on the workforce. So, in that light, Cabinet Secretary, what sort of policies would you be pursuing to ensure that we do mitigate those impacts? Because we have to ensure that any gains in productivity are felt across the workforce, not just for those at the top.
Mae'n dda clywed pwyslais yn eich ymateb ar arloesi a arweinir gan gyflogeion. Y rheswm pam y penderfynais edrych ar gynhyrchiant heddiw yw am fod angen cydnabod, onid oes, fod y byd gwaith wedi newid. Weithiau, gall ceisio gwella cynhyrchiant arwain yn anfwriadol at effaith andwyol ar y gweithlu ei hun. Beth a olygaf wrth hynny? Wel, i ddefnyddio enghraifft or-syml ac anghynnil iawn, pe baech am wella cynhyrchiant yn gyflym iawn, mewn ffordd effeithiol iawn, gellid dadlau, byddech yn awtomeiddio popeth, oni fyddech? Nid wyf yn awgrymu, wrth gwrs, mai dyna bolisi'r Llywodraeth, ond mae'n creu delwedd esboniadol hawdd iawn o wrthdynnu posibl o ran gwella cynhyrchiant. Felly, mewn gwirionedd, pan fyddwn yn edrych ar gynnydd mewn cynhyrchiant, mae angen inni edrych hefyd ar sut y rhoddwn bolisïau ar waith wedyn i sicrhau ein bod yn lliniaru unrhyw effaith negyddol bosibl y gallai cynnydd mewn cynhyrchiant ei chael ar y gweithlu. Felly, yng ngoleuni hynny, Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet, pa fath o bolisïau y byddech chi'n eu rhoi ar waith i sicrhau ein bod yn lliniaru'r effeithiau hynny? Oherwydd mae'n rhaid inni sicrhau bod unrhyw enillion mewn cynhyrchiant yn cael eu teimlo ar draws y gweithlu, nid gan y rheini ar y brig yn unig.
I absolutely agree with that. I would endorse everything that the Member has said in his question, actually. This isn't a balance sheet exercise; it's about people, isn't it, at the heart of it. Why are we having this discussion? It's because we want to improve the livelihoods and lives of individuals, families and communities right across Wales and beyond. That's what's at the heart of this.
There is a challenge in all parts of the UK about productivity and the economy. That's why we've seen wages stagnate in sectors right across the UK. That's why I'm bringing a focus to it. And it's not an exclusive focus. You could say that some policies are in tension if you look at productivity on the one hand and the measures you might want to be able to bring, as we do, to reduce economic inactivity. There is a bit of a tension between some of those. I think you have to have a holistic picture, but some of the points I made earlier, I hope you will recognise, are really about supporting workers to have a better living in terms of the productivity interventions.
I absolutely agree with the Member that, where we see firms taking on more technology, changing business processes, what we need to see is to make sure that the individuals who perhaps previously were doing the work that is sometimes automated are supported to enhance their skills and therefore take on better paid work. There was a good example I saw recently in Bridgend, actually, in Sony, of that. They walked me through the process that they had to increase the skill level of their workforce, and that's the kind of approach that we want so that individual workers and their families are benefiting from this.
Rwy'n cytuno'n llwyr â hynny. Byddwn yn cymeradwyo popeth a ddywedodd yr Aelod yn ei gwestiwn, a dweud y gwir. Nid ymarfer mantolen mo hyn; mae a wnelo â phobl, a dyna sydd wrth wraidd y peth. Pam ydyn ni'n cael y drafodaeth hon? Oherwydd ein bod am wella bywoliaeth a bywydau unigolion, teuluoedd a chymunedau ledled Cymru a thu hwnt. Dyna sydd wrth wraidd hyn.
Mae her ym mhob rhan o’r DU o ran cynhyrchiant a’r economi. Dyna pam rydyn ni wedi gweld cyflogau'n aros yr un fath mewn sectorau ledled y DU. Dyna pam yr wyf fi'n rhoi ffocws ar hyn. Ac nid yw'n ffocws unigryw. Gallech ddweud bod tensiwn rhwng rhai polisïau os edrychwch ar gynhyrchiant ar y naill law a’r mesurau y gallech eu cyflwyno, fel rydym yn awyddus i'w wneud, i leihau anweithgarwch economaidd. Mae rhywfaint o densiwn rhwng rhai o’r rheini. Credaf fod yn rhaid ichi gael darlun cyfannol, ond gobeithio y byddwch yn cydnabod bod rhai o'r pwyntiau a wneuthum yn gynharach yn ymwneud â chynorthwyo gweithwyr i gael bywoliaeth well o ran yr ymyriadau cynhyrchiant.
Rwy'n cytuno'n llwyr â’r Aelod, lle gwelwn gwmnïau’n defnyddio mwy o dechnoleg, ac yn newid prosesau busnes, mai'r hyn y mae angen i ni ei weld yw sicrwydd fod yr unigolion a oedd efallai’n arfer gwneud y swyddi sydd weithiau’n cael eu hawtomeiddio yn cael eu cefnogi i wella eu sgiliau, ac felly i gael swydd sy'n talu'n well. Gwelais enghraifft dda o hynny yn Sony ym Mhen-y-bont ar Ogwr yn ddiweddar. Fe wnaethant ddisgrifio i mi y broses a oedd ganddynt i gynyddu lefel sgiliau eu gweithlu, a dyna’r math o ddull gweithredu yr hoffem ei weld, fel bod gweithwyr unigol a’u teuluoedd yn elwa o hyn.
3. Pa gynlluniau sydd gan yr Ysgrifennydd Cabinet i gefnogi twf y sector ynni adnewyddadwy yng Ngogledd Cymru? OQ60998
3. What plans does the Cabinet Secretary have to support the growth of the renewable energy sector in North Wales? OQ60998
The regional economic framework, local and regional energy plans and the north Wales growth deal recognise and support the opportunities for the renewable energy sector across north Wales. As we maintain our collaborative approach, this will ensure that we maximise the economic and community benefits in the region.
Mae’r fframwaith economaidd rhanbarthol, cynlluniau ynni lleol a rhanbarthol a bargen twf gogledd Cymru yn cydnabod ac yn cefnogi’r cyfleoedd ar gyfer y sector ynni adnewyddadwy ar draws y gogledd. Wrth inni barhau â'n dull cydweithredol, bydd hyn yn sicrhau ein bod yn gwneud y mwyaf o'r buddion economaidd a chymunedol yn y rhanbarth.
Diolch. I was really pleased to visit the new engineering unit at Coleg Llandrillo in Rhyl and meet our RWE-sponsored apprentices with the Cabinet Secretary. North Wales is ideal for wind, wave and solar renewable energy. Together, they can provide an adequate base load. I'm sure that the Minister will agree with me that locally produced renewable energy should also benefit residents through a reduction in their energy bills. That would be fantastic.
Tidal barrages can provide consistent energy as well, and act as a flood defence, which is a huge issue in north Wales. It would be really welcomed by residents who have been worried about flooding during recent high tides and stormy weather. The north Wales railway line was almost covered as well in the recent high tide. Is a north Wales tidal barrage something that the Cabinet Secretary would be interested in pursuing going forward?
Diolch. Roeddwn yn falch iawn o ymweld â’r uned beirianneg newydd yng Ngholeg Llandrillo yn y Rhyl a chyfarfod â’n prentisiaid a noddir gan RWE gydag Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet. Mae gogledd Cymru yn lle delfrydol ar gyfer ynni adnewyddadwy gwynt, tonnau a solar. Gyda'i gilydd, gallant ddarparu cyflenwad sylfaenol digonol o ynni. Rwy’n siŵr y bydd y Gweinidog yn cytuno â mi y dylai ynni adnewyddadwy a gynhyrchir yn lleol fod o fudd i drigolion hefyd drwy ostyngiad yn eu biliau ynni. Byddai hynny'n wych.
Gall morgloddiau llanw ddarparu ynni cyson hefyd, a gweithredu fel amddiffynfa rhag llifogydd, sy’n broblem enfawr yng ngogledd Cymru. Byddent yn cael eu croesawu’n fawr gan drigolion sydd wedi bod yn poeni am lifogydd yn ystod llanw uchel a thywydd stormus yn ddiweddar. Bu bron i reilffordd gogledd Cymru gael ei gorchuddio hefyd gan y llanw uchel diweddar. A yw morglawdd llanw ar gyfer y gogledd yn rhywbeth y byddai Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet yn awyddus i'w archwilio wrth symud ymlaen?
First of all, I'd like to thank Carolyn Thomas for the opportunity to visit the college with her. It was genuinely uplifting, wasn't it, talking to those apprentices who were developing skills in sectors that they knew would be there throughout their working life—that it's a sector that would see more and more investment and more and more opportunity for those young people, and in a part of Wales that is very disadvantaged. So, seeing those opportunities on the doorstep, I think, is just really, really important.
On the question of a tidal barrage, Wales is a coastal nation, isn't it, so we need to take full advantage of our natural assets. There have been regular review meetings with the three winners of the tidal lagoon challenge. The reason for that is to make sure that the performance is monitored, that there are milestones that are agreed and met, and that findings from the research process are reported and communicated properly. The purpose of the challenge, as she will know, is to support research that will reduce or remove barriers to tidal lagoon development or research that can help us quantify a potential benefit for a tidal lagoon development. But I share here excitement at the potential that we have in north Wales, as in other parts of Wales, to make this a fundamental part of our economy.
Yn gyntaf oll, hoffwn ddiolch i Carolyn Thomas am y cyfle i ymweld â’r coleg gyda hi. Roedd yn wirioneddol galonogol siarad â’r prentisiaid a oedd yn datblygu sgiliau mewn sectorau y gwyddent y byddent yno drwy gydol eu bywyd gwaith—ei fod yn sector a fyddai’n cael mwy a mwy o fuddsoddiad a mwy a mwy o gyfleoedd i’r bobl ifanc hynny, ac mewn rhan o Gymru sy'n ddifreintiedig iawn. Felly, credaf fod gweld y cyfleoedd hynny ar garreg y drws yn wirioneddol bwysig.
Ar gwestiwn morglawdd llanw, mae Cymru yn genedl arfordirol felly mae angen inni fanteisio’n llawn ar ein hasedau naturiol. Cafwyd cyfarfodydd adolygu rheolaidd gyda thri enillydd yr her môr-lynnoedd llanw. Y rheswm am hynny yw er mwyn sicrhau bod perfformiad yn cael ei fonitro, y cytunir ar gerrig milltir a’u bod yn cael eu bodloni, a bod canfyddiadau’r broses ymchwil yn cael eu hadrodd a’u cyfathrebu’n briodol. Diben yr her, fel y gŵyr, yw cefnogi ymchwil a fydd yn lleihau neu’n dileu rhwystrau i ddatblygiad môr-lynnoedd llanw neu ymchwil a all ein helpu i feintioli budd posibl ar gyfer datblygiad morlyn llanw. Ond rwy'n rhannu'r cyffro ynghylch y potensial sydd gennym yng ngogledd Cymru, fel mewn rhannau eraill o Gymru, i wneud hyn yn rhan hollbwysig o’n heconomi.
The Welsh Government has set a target of 70 per cent renewable energy by 2030. However, if we want to achieve this, we need to do more. In north Wales we have a rich history of renewable energy, particularly the use of hydroelectricity stations, which can generate 2,100 MW, and that's enough to supply nearly a third of Wales's 1.5 million homes. However, further action is required.
With the clean energy budget slashed by approximately 70 per cent this year, incentivising private investment to projects is essential. Endless bureaucratic barriers and high business rates are hindering farmers who have set up these hydro schemes previously on the promise that those business rate reliefs would be there. As technology has improved, negating the need for large reservoirs or dams, smaller private projects are the next step for hydro in Wales, and the previous Minister for energy actually said that, as far as she was concerned, it needs a mix of different technologies to take us forward.
Recommendation 14 of the deep-dive was clear that support should be given to community schemes and private developers. So, Cabinet Secretary, what steps will you take to ensure that private individuals can pursue local hydroelectric schemes on their own land and be free from this endless restrictive red tape? And maybe some support from the Welsh Government would be apt as well.
Mae Llywodraeth Cymru wedi gosod targed o 70 y cant o ynni adnewyddadwy erbyn 2030. Fodd bynnag, os ydym am gyflawni hyn, mae angen inni wneud mwy. Yn y gogledd, mae gennym hanes cyfoethog o ynni adnewyddadwy, yn enwedig y defnydd o orsafoedd ynni dŵr, sy’n gallu cynhyrchu 2,100 MW, ac mae hynny’n ddigon i gyflenwi bron i draean o’r 1.5 miliwn o gartrefi yng Nghymru. Fodd bynnag, mae angen rhoi camau pellach ar waith.
Gyda'r gyllideb ynni glân wedi'i thorri oddeutu 70 y cant eleni, mae cymell buddsoddiad preifat mewn prosiectau yn hanfodol. Mae rhwystrau biwrocrataidd diddiwedd ac ardrethi busnes uchel yn llesteirio ffermwyr sydd wedi sefydlu’r cynlluniau ynni dŵr hyn yn flaenorol ar sail yr addewid y byddai rhyddhad ardrethi busnes ar gael. Wrth i dechnoleg wella, gan ddiddymu'r angen am gronfeydd dŵr neu argaeau mawr, prosiectau preifat llai yw’r cam nesaf ar gyfer ynni dŵr yng Nghymru, a dywedodd y Gweinidog ynni blaenorol fod arnom angen cymysgedd o wahanol dechnolegau ar gyfer y dyfodol yn ei barn hi.
Roedd argymhelliad 14 yn yr archwiliad dwfn yn nodi'n glir y dylid rhoi cymorth i gynlluniau cymunedol a datblygwyr preifat. Felly, Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet, pa gamau y byddwch chi'n eu cymryd i sicrhau y gall unigolion preifat ddatblygu cynlluniau ynni dŵr lleol ar eu tir eu hunain yn rhydd rhag y fiwrocratiaeth gyfyngol ddiddiwedd hon? Ac efallai y byddai rhywfaint o gymorth gan Lywodraeth Cymru yn addas hefyd.
I'm not sure I would accept the way the Member characterises the situation. The targets that we have are ambitious. We want to be able to produce the equivalent of our entire electricity consumption from renewable sources by 2035 and, by the same time, we want at least 1.5 GW of renewable energy capacity to be locally owned. We've reset that target to make it more ambitious, given that we were meeting the other previous target ahead of time. I do think there is a need for a mix. I think the Member is right to say that it is a mix. And I'm looking forward to seeing the work that I know Ynni Cymru, which is the product of the joint working that we have with Plaid Cymru as part of our co-operation agreement, will be able to do to support community energy initiatives and to make sure that we have local energy as a fundamental part of the mix in the future. And she mentioned budgetary pressures. Ynni Cymru has a capital budget of £10 million for this financial year, and I'm looking forward to seeing the exciting plans they will have to support growth in this part of the sector.
Nid wyf yn siŵr a fyddwn yn derbyn y ffordd y mae’r Aelod yn disgrifio'r sefyllfa. Mae’r targedau sydd gennym yn uchelgeisiol. Rydym am allu cynhyrchu’r hyn sy’n cyfateb i’n holl ddefnydd o drydan o ffynonellau adnewyddadwy erbyn 2035, ac erbyn yr un pryd, hoffem pe bai o leiaf 1.5 GW o gapasiti ynni adnewyddadwy mewn perchnogaeth leol. Rydym wedi ailosod y targed hwnnw i'w wneud yn fwy uchelgeisiol, o ystyried ein bod yn cyrraedd y targed blaenorol arall cyn pryd. Rwy'n credu bod angen cymysgedd. Rwy'n credu bod yr Aelod yn iawn i ddweud bod angen cymysgedd. Ac edrychaf ymlaen at weld y gwaith y gwn y bydd Ynni Cymru, a sefydlwyd yn sgil y cydweithio â Phlaid Cymru fel rhan o’n cytundeb cydweithio, yn gallu ei wneud i gefnogi mentrau ynni cymunedol ac i sicrhau bod gennym ynni lleol fel rhan sylfaenol o’r cymysgedd yn y dyfodol. A soniodd am bwysau cyllidebol. Mae gan Ynni Cymru gyllideb gyfalaf o £10 miliwn ar gyfer y flwyddyn ariannol hon, ac edrychaf ymlaen at weld y cynlluniau cyffrous a fydd ganddynt i gefnogi twf yn y rhan hon o’r sector.
4. Beth y mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn ei wneud i gefnogi'r economi yng ngorllewin Cymru? OQ60992
4. What is the Welsh Government doing to support the economy in west Wales? OQ60992
In line with priorities set out in the economic mission, we are supporting a range of activities aimed at supporting the economy in west Wales, including support for business, skills development, and communications infrastructure—all aimed at increasing prosperity and productivity.
Yn unol â'r blaenoriaethau a nodir yn y genhadaeth economaidd, rydym yn cefnogi ystod o weithgareddau gyda'r nod o gefnogi'r economi yng ngorllewin Cymru, gan gynnwys cefnogaeth i fusnes, datblygu sgiliau, a seilwaith cyfathrebu—y cyfan gyda'r nod o gynyddu ffyniant a chynhyrchiant.
I'm grateful to the Cabinet Secretary for that response. Now, one way to support the economy in west Wales is to invest in its town centres, like Milford Haven in my constituency, which is in desperate need of investment and support. Of course, the aim of regenerating high streets and town centres should be to develop them as hubs of economic development. We must ensure that in the case of Milford Haven, the town centre is not neglected whilst other parts, like the waterway and the marina, continue to develop. Therefore, can you tell us what the Welsh Government is doing to help reinvigorate town centres like Milford Haven? And can you also tell us what discussions you are having with the Cabinet Secretary for Housing, Local Government and Planning about regenerating town centres and supporting the economy in west Wales?
Rwy'n ddiolchgar i Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet am yr ymateb hwnnw. Nawr, un ffordd o gefnogi'r economi yng ngorllewin Cymru yw buddsoddi yng nghanol trefi, fel Aberdaugleddau yn fy etholaeth i, sydd angen buddsoddiad a chymorth yn ddybryd. Wrth gwrs, dylai'r nod o adfywio strydoedd mawr a chanol trefi olygu eu datblygu fel canolfannau datblygu economaidd. Rhaid inni sicrhau, yn achos Aberdaugleddau, nad yw canol y dref yn cael ei esgeuluso tra bo rhannau eraill, fel y ddyfrffordd a'r marina, yn parhau i ddatblygu. Felly, a allwch chi ddweud wrthym beth mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn ei wneud i helpu i adfywio canol trefi fel Aberdaugleddau? Ac a allwch chi ddweud wrthym hefyd pa drafodaethau rydych chi'n eu cael gydag Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet dros Dai, Llywodraeth Leol a Chynllunio ynghylch adfywio canol trefi a chefnogi'r economi yng ngorllewin Cymru?
Well, I do think that the point the Member makes is well made. It is important, as we look at some of the larger infrastructure projects and developments, that we also make sure that we are supporting our towns to continue to be vibrant and places where people want to be and want to go. Our 'town centre first' principle in planning and in development more broadly goes to the heart of that. How can we make sure that we are locating assets in the middle of towns so that we can bring in the footfall that is needed in order for local businesses of all sorts to be able to flourish? This is an ongoing discussion, which I have with the Cabinet Secretary for local government, and have had it in previous Cabinet roles with her as well. I know that she shares my ambition to make sure that our towns right across Wales are vibrant, as a key driver of local economies, and a clear recognition that the work we do as a Government must be done hand in hand with local authorities.
Wel, rwy'n credu bod y pwynt y mae'r Aelod yn ei wneud yn un da. Wrth inni edrych ar rai o'r prosiectau a'r datblygiadau seilwaith mwy o faint, mae'n bwysig ein bod hefyd yn sicrhau ein bod yn cefnogi ein trefi i barhau i fod yn fywiog ac yn lleoedd lle mae pobl eisiau bod ac eisiau mynd iddynt. Mae ein hegwyddor 'canol y dref yn gyntaf' mewn cynllunio ac mewn datblygu yn fwy eang yn mynd at wraidd hynny. Sut y gallwn ni sicrhau ein bod yn lleoli asedau yng nghanol trefi fel y gallwn ddenu'r ymwelwyr sydd eu hangen er mwyn i fusnesau lleol o bob math allu ffynnu? Mae hon yn drafodaeth barhaus, un rwy'n ei chael gydag Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet dros lywodraeth leol, ac rwyf wedi ei chael gyda hi mewn rolau Cabinet blaenorol hefyd. Gwn ei bod yn rhannu fy uchelgais i sicrhau bod ein trefi ledled Cymru yn fywiog, fel sbardun allweddol i economïau lleol, a chydnabyddiaeth glir fod yn rhaid i'r gwaith a wnawn fel Llywodraeth gael ei wneud law yn llaw ag awdurdodau lleol.
Rŷn ni'n gwybod bod y cyfnod diweddar yma wedi bod yn anodd i fusnesau cefn gwlad, yn arbennig ein tafarnau ni. Maen nhw wedi gweld cost trethi busnes yn codi, cost ynni, bwyd, diod ac yn y blaen, a dyw'r cwsmeriaid ddim wedi dod nôl fel oedden nhw cyn y pandemig. Ac o ganlyniad, rŷn ni wedi colli gormod o dafarnau sydd wrth wraidd ein cymunedau gwledig. Rwy'n falch iawn, wrth gwrs, fy mod i'n cynrychioli rhanbarth lle mae yna nifer o enghreifftiau o gymuned yn dod at ei gilydd i godi arian i brynu tafarnau a'u rhedeg nhw, wedyn, fel mentrau cymdeithasol a hybiau cymunedol.
Wythnos diwethaf, fues i draw yn cefnogi ymgyrch i brynu'r Angel Inn, tafarn yr Angel, yn Salem ger Llandeilo. Nawr, petai'r grŵp yma yn yr Alban, mi fydden nhw wedi cael rhyw fath o first refusal i brynu'r ased cymunedol yma o dan gynllun community right to buy. Nawr, yng Nghymru, dyw'r hawliau yna ddim yn bodoli, ac mae'n golygu bod yr ymgyrchwyr yma yn gorfod cystadlu ar y farchnad agored. Nawr, mae Llywodraeth Cymru eisoes wedi ymrwymo i sefydlu comisiwn ar berchnogaeth gymunedol ac edrych ar ddeddfwriaeth i gefnogi community right to buy. Gaf i ofyn i chi beth yw'r diweddariad ar y cynlluniau yna?
We know that this recent period has been difficult for rural businesses, particularly our pubs. They've seen business rates increasing, the cost of energy, food, drink and so on, and the customers haven't returned to the levels they experienced pre pandemic. As a result, we've lost too many of the pubs that are at the heart of our rural communities. I'm very pleased, of course, and proud to represent a region where there are a number of examples of communities coming together to raise funds in order to buy pubs and then to run them as social enterprises and community hubs.
Last week, I was supporting a campaign to buy the Angel Inn in Salem near Llandeilo. Now, if this group were in Scotland, they would have had some sort of first refusal on the purchase of that community asset under the community right-to-buy scheme. Now, in Wales, those rights don't exist, and it means that these campaigners have to compete on the open market. Now, the Welsh Government has already committed to establishing a commission on community ownership and to look at legislation in order to support the community right to buy. So, can I ask you for an update on those plans?
Fe wnaf i basio hynny ymlaen i'r Gweinidog sydd yn gyfrifol yn uniongyrchol am hynny.FootnoteLink O fewn y gwaith rwyf i wedi gallu gwneud fel Gweinidog y Gymraeg, mae'r gronfa Perthyn wedi gwneud gwahaniaeth mawr ac wedi galluogi tafarndai i gael eu prynu yn y ffordd mae'r Aelod yn sôn amdani, a'u datblygu fel llefydd cymunedol i bobl. Lle bydden nhw wedi eu cau, maen nhw wedi cael eu hail-adfywio yn ganolfannau diwylliannol, cymdeithasol bywiog iawn. Felly, mae hynny yn rhan bwysig, dwi’n credu, o’r mix hwnnw, sut rŷn ni’n cefnogi cymunedau cefn gwlad, cefnogi cymunedau lle mae’r Gymraeg yn iaith fwyafrifol, ac mae hynny’n rhan bwysig o’r gwaith rŷn ni’n gallu ei wneud fel Llywodraeth.
I'll pass that on to the Minister responsible directly for that.FootnoteLink In terms of the work that I've been able to do as Welsh language Minister, the Perthyn fund has made a great difference and has allowed pubs to be bought in the way that the Member mentions and to be developed as community hubs for people. Where they would have closed, they are regenerated as cultural hubs, social hubs, which are very vibrant. So, that's a very important part, I think, of that mix, how we support Welsh-speaking communities and communities where Welsh is the majority language, and that's a very important part of the Government's work.
5. Pa asesiad mae Llywodraeth Cymru wedi ei wneud o faint ac effaith economaidd sectorau diwylliannol, celfyddydol a threftadaeth ein cenedl? OQ61021
5. What assessment has the Welsh Government made of the economic size and impact of Wales's cultural, arts and heritage sectors? OQ61021
Mae gwerth sylweddol iawn i’r sectorau hynny. Yn y flwyddyn ddiwethaf, mae Llywodraeth Cymru wedi comisiynu adolygiad o'r sector diwylliannol er mwyn sicrhau ein bod ni'n deall yn well y sail tystiolaeth sydd gyda ni er mwyn gwerthuso impact economaidd, ac wedi dod o hyd i gapiau yn y dystiolaeth sydd gyda ni, ac rŷn ni'n bwrw ati ar hyn o bryd i'w llenwi.
There is a huge economic value to those sectors. In the last year, the Welsh Government has commissioned a review of the culture sector to ensure that we do understand better the evidence base that we have in order to evaluate the economic impact, and has found gaps in the evidence that we have, and we're pressing ahead to fill those gaps.
Diolch yn fawr iawn am yr ateb hwnnw. Mae’n gadarnhaol dros ben, oherwydd mae wedi bod yn siomedig, yn ystod y trafodaethau sydd wedi bod ynglŷn â chyllidebau Llywodraeth, clywed rhai Gweinidogion, efallai’r Prif Weinidog newydd, yn sôn ynglŷn â’r dewisiadau anodd, wrth gwrs, sydd gan y Llywodraeth, ond ddim i weld yn gwerthfawrogi gwerth a budd economaidd y sectorau eithriadol o bwysig hyn, nid yn unig fel cyflogwyr, ond o ran twristiaeth ddiwylliannol ac ati. Felly, a gaf i ofyn, o ran y gwaith hwnnw, yn amlwg dŷn ni yn disgwyl cyn bo hir strategaeth ddiwylliant newydd hefyd, fydd gobeithio yn gallu edrych ar yr ochr economaidd, ond sut wedyn ydych chi’n mynd i sicrhau, wrth drafod cyllidebau blynyddoedd i ddod, ein bod ni hefyd yn edrych ar werth economaidd yr arian sydd yn dod nôl i Gymru wrth wneud penderfyniadau ynglŷn â chyllido, yn hytrach na rhoi cyllideb yn erbyn cyllideb, heb feddwl wedyn am yr effaith economaidd?
Thank you very much for that response. It's very positive indeed, because it has been disappointing, in the discussions that have taken place on Government budgets, to hear some Ministers, and perhaps the new First Minister, talking about difficult choices that the Government, of course, has to make, but not seeming to appreciate the economic value of these crucially important sectors, not only as employers, but also in terms of cultural tourism and so on. So, can I ask you, in terms of that work, clearly we are expecting a new culture strategy, which will hopefully look at the economic aspects too, but how then will you ensure, when discussing future budgets, that we also look at the economic value and the money that comes back to Wales in making decisions on funding, rather than placing one budget at odds with the other, without thinking about the economic impact?
Wel, rwy’n gwybod bod hyn yn flaenoriaeth hefyd i Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet dros ddiwylliant. Mae blaenoriaeth i gefnogi’r amgueddfa yn rhan o hynny. Yn fy marn i, mae lles a buddiannau diwylliannol y genedl yn glwm gyda buddiant a ffyniant economaidd y genedl mewn llawer o ffyrdd, felly mae wir yn bwysig ein bod ni’n cydnabod ac yn deall efallai’n well nag ydyn ni beth yn union yw impact economaidd y gweithgaredd dŷn ni’n ei ariannu. Felly, mae cyngor y celfyddydau wedi gwneud gwaith yn y maes hwn yn y gorffennol. Mae Cadw wedi gwneud gwaith yn y maes hwn, ac mae’r gwaith a wnaethpwyd y llynedd yn mynd i sicrhau bod gyda ni well dealltwriaeth. Dyw e ddim yn ddealltwriaeth gyflawn, mae’n rhaid dweud, ond mae e’n well dealltwriaeth nag sydd wedi bod yn y gorffennol.
Felly, wrth edrych ar y blaenoriaethau strategol ar gyfer diwylliant dros y bum mlynedd nesaf, bydd gyda ni well sail i wneud yr asesiadau hollbwysig hynny. Ac mae e yn bwysig ein bod ni’n gwneud hynny, fel mae’r Aelod yn dweud, fel ein bod ni’n deall gwerth yr holl fuddsoddiadau rŷn ni’n gallu eu gwneud, a’n bod ni’n cael y darlun cyflawn, fel ein bod ni’n sicrhau ffyniant economaidd a ffyniant diwylliannol ar yr un llaw.
Well, I know that this is a priority for the Cabinet Secretary for culture. A priority in supporting the museum is part of that. In my opinion, the well-being and cultural interests of the country are tied into the economic prosperity of the country in many ways, so it is very important that we do recognise and understand better than we do at present the economic impact of those activities that we fund. So, the arts council has done work in this area in the past, and Cadw has done work in this area, and the work carried out last year is going to ensure that we have a better understanding. It's not a comprehensive understanding, I have to say, but it's a better understanding than there has been in the past.
So, in looking at the strategic priorities for culture over the next five years, we will have a better foundation to undertake those vital assessments. And it is important that we do that, as the Member says, so that we do understand the value of all the investments that we can make, and that we have a full picture, so that we can ensure economic and cultural prosperity at the same time.
I’m interested to know what the economic impact will be of the Welsh Government’s decision to simultaneously cut funding to national museum Wales, and prioritise their bizarre ambition to decolonise public art. Welsh Government guidance states that public art must be decolonised and should celebrate the achievements of our diverse society or risk being removed. Aside from this issue not being a priority to most people in Wales, it’s also not a grown-up way to grapple with history, I’m afraid. We can celebrate the achievements of our diverse society without taking an Orwellian Tipp-Ex pen to public artwork that is not in vogue. Many were saddened to hear the chief executive of Museum Wales on BBC Radio Wales telling listeners that the museum is facing—[Interruption.]
Mae gennyf ddiddordeb mewn gwybod beth fydd effaith economaidd penderfyniad Llywodraeth Cymru i dorri cyllid i amgueddfa genedlaethol Cymru ar yr un pryd â blaenoriaethu eu huchelgais rhyfedd i ddad-drefedigaethu celf gyhoeddus. Mae canllawiau Llywodraeth Cymru yn nodi bod yn rhaid dad-drefedigaethu celf gyhoeddus a dylai ddathlu cyflawniadau ein cymdeithas amrywiol neu fentro cael ei symud. Ar wahân i'r ffaith nad yw'r mater yn flaenoriaeth i'r rhan fwyaf o bobl yng Nghymru, nid yw'n ffordd aeddfed o fynd i'r afael â hanes, mae arnaf ofn. Gallwn ddathlu cyflawniadau ein cymdeithas amrywiol heb ddefnyddio beiro Tipp-Ex Orwellaidd ar waith celf cyhoeddus nad yw'n ffasiynol. Roedd llawer yn drist o glywed prif weithredwr Amgueddfa Cymru ar BBC Radio Wales yn dweud wrth wrandawyr fod yr amgueddfa'n wynebu—[Torri ar draws.]
I really do want to hear what the Member has to say.
Hoffwn yn fawr glywed beth sydd gan yr Aelod i'w ddweud.
Thank you very much. It's facing a £4.5 million reduction in its budget from the Welsh Government and its future is now in jeopardy. A priceless cultural icon of Wales that has enriched lives across generations is now facing public closure due to budget cuts. So, to avert fears of looking like a philistine Government, will the Cabinet Secretary provide the necessary funding so that future generations will benefit from the same cultural and artistic enrichment that we have the luxury of having here in Wales? And I can see the Minister there with direct responsibility laughing at my remarks, but I’m sure most people in Wales who enjoy the rich cultural history that we have in this country would not find it funny.
Diolch yn fawr iawn. Mae'n wynebu gostyngiad o £4.5 miliwn yn ei chyllideb gan Lywodraeth Cymru ac mae ei dyfodol bellach mewn perygl. Mae eicon diwylliannol amhrisiadwy yng Nghymru sydd wedi cyfoethogi bywydau ar draws cenedlaethau bellach yn wynebu gorfod cau ei drysau i'r cyhoedd oherwydd toriadau yn y gyllideb. Felly, er mwyn osgoi edrych fel Llywodraeth Philistaidd, a wnaiff Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet ddarparu'r cyllid angenrheidiol fel y bydd cenedlaethau'r dyfodol yn elwa o'r un cyfoeth diwylliannol ac artistig ag yr ydym mor ffodus o'i gael yma yng Nghymru? A gallaf weld y Gweinidog sydd â chyfrifoldeb uniongyrchol yn chwerthin am ben fy sylwadau, ond rwy'n siŵr na fyddai'r rhan fwyaf o bobl yng Nghymru sy'n mwynhau'r hanes diwylliannol cyfoethog sydd gennym yn y wlad hon yn ei ystyried yn ddoniol.
Well, I pity poor socialist George Orwell turning in his grave thinking at being prayed in aid by that intervention. I think the response of the public to the museum in Wales is probably best illustrated by the spotlight on museums survey that indicated the economic impact of visits to museums in Wales was around £134 million, which suggests to me that members of the public actually want to go to the museums that we are recommending that they visit. I just want to take issue with the point that he made in relation to the national museum. There are no plans to close the museum. We are working with the museum to develop a plan to address the maintenance issues in Cardiff in particular, and whenever we've received requests for additional capital funding from Amgueddfa Cymru, we've responded. So, in addition to its roughly £5 million capital grant in aid last year, we provided an extra sum of £2 million to help tackle some of the long-term maintenance issues and for the redevelopment of the slate museum as well. So, here we have a Government that, in the face of a policy of austerity that has led to significant cuts in our budget from Westminster, is still doing everything it can to work with the sector to support the sector, including in very challenging times.
Wel, mae gennyf drueni dros y sosialydd George Orwell druan yn troi yn ei fedd wrth feddwl ei fod yn cael ei ddefnyddio i gefnogi'r cyfraniad hwnnw. Rwy'n credu bod ymateb y cyhoedd i'r amgueddfa yng Nghymru yn cael ei ddangos orau yn yr arolwg golwg ar amgueddfeydd a nododd fod effaith economaidd ymweliadau ag amgueddfeydd yng Nghymru oddeutu £134 miliwn, sy'n awgrymu i mi fod aelodau'r cyhoedd eisiau mynd i'r amgueddfeydd yr ydym yn argymell iddynt ymweld â nhw. Hoffwn anghytuno â'r pwynt a wnaeth mewn perthynas â'r amgueddfa genedlaethol. Nid oes unrhyw gynlluniau i gau'r amgueddfa. Rydym yn gweithio gyda'r amgueddfa i ddatblygu cynllun i fynd i'r afael â'r materion cynnal a chadw yng Nghaerdydd yn benodol, ac rydym wedi ymateb ar bob achlysur y daeth ceisiadau i law am arian cyfalaf ychwanegol gan Amgueddfa Cymru. Felly, yn ogystal â'i grant cyfalaf o tua £5 miliwn o gymorth y llynedd, fe wnaethom ddarparu swm ychwanegol o £2 filiwn i helpu i fynd i'r afael â rhai o'r materion cynnal a chadw hirdymor ac ar gyfer ailddatblygu'r amgueddfa lechi hefyd. Felly, yn wyneb polisi cyni sydd wedi arwain at doriadau sylweddol yn ein cyllideb o San Steffan, yma mae gennym Lywodraeth sy'n dal i wneud popeth yn ei gallu i weithio gyda'r sector i gefnogi'r sector, gan gynnwys mewn cyfnod heriol iawn.
6. Sut mae'r Ysgrifennydd Cabinet yn gweithio gyda Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet dros Iechyd a Gofal Cymdeithasol i sicrhau bod trefniadau hyfforddiant deintyddiaeth yng Nghymru yn cynhyrchu gweithlu sy’n diwallu anghenion ieithyddol plant ac oedolion yn Arfon? OQ61015
6. How is the Cabinet Secretary working with the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care to ensure that dentistry training arrangements in Wales produce a workforce that meets the linguistic needs of children and adults in Arfon? OQ61015
Mae cynllun Deintyddion Yfory wedi’i lansio rhwng y Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol â Phrifysgol Caerdydd i gefnogi siaradwyr Cymraeg gyda’u cais i’r ysgol deintyddiaeth. Bydd y coleg hefyd yn cefnogi’r brifysgol i gynnig profiadau dysgu cyfrwng Cymraeg i fyfyrwyr. Byddaf i'n gweithio’n agos, felly, gyda’r Ysgrifennydd Cabinet dros Iechyd a Gofal Cymdeithasol ar hyn.
The Deintyddion Yfory scheme has been launched between the Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol and Cardiff University to support Welsh speakers with their application to the school of dentistry. The coleg will also support the university to offer students Welsh-medium learning experiences. I will be working closely, therefore, with the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care on this issue.
Yr wythnos diwethaf yn y Senedd fe wnes i sôn am y diffyg dybryd o ddeintyddion sydd ar gael ar gyfer gofal NHS yn Arfon. Mae’r sgìl o allu rhoi gwasanaeth yn y Gymraeg yn rhan hanfodol ar gyfer y gweithlu deintyddol mewn ardal fel Arfon, lle mae’r Gymraeg yn brif iaith i lawer ohonom ni. Mae data mae’r Ysgrifennydd Cabinet iechyd wedi’i ddarparu i mi yn cadarnhau mai lleiafrif y myfyrwyr sy’n astudio yn yr unig ysgol ddeintyddol yng Nghymru ar hyn o bryd, sef ym Mhrifysgol Caerdydd, sydd yn aros yng Nghymru i barhau efo’u hyfforddiant deintyddol sylfaenol ar ôl graddio. Mae hi hefyd wedi cadarnhau wrthyf i fod yna drafodaethau yn digwydd i gynyddu lleoedd hyfforddi deintyddiaeth, a hynny mewn ymateb i argymhelliad pwyllgor iechyd y Senedd y dylai’r Llywodraeth archwilio opsiynau i sefydlu ysgol ddeintyddol yn y gogledd.
Ydych chi’n cytuno bod y cyfleoedd cyfyngedig sydd i astudio deintyddiaeth yng Nghymru ar hyn o bryd, a diffyg effeithiolrwydd y cyfleoedd hynny, o ystyried nad ydyn nhw’n aros yma mewn niferoedd digonol, yn golygu ein bod ni'n colli’r cyfle i wreiddio’r Gymraeg ar hyd y llwybr sydd yn arwain at gymhwyso fel deintydd? Ydych chi'n cytuno, felly, y byddai creu ysgol ddeintyddol ym Mangor yn rhoi’r cyfle i ni, fel yn achos yr ysgol feddygol, i wreiddio’r Gymraeg ac anghenion yr ardal leol yn rhan naturiol o’r hyfforddiant? Pa drafodaethau ydych chi wedi eu cael hefo Eluned Morgan i bwyso’r achos ieithyddol dros sefydlu ysgol o’r fath ym Mangor, a chadarnhau Bangor fel canolfan rhagoriaeth hyfforddiant iechyd a gofal?
Last week in the Senedd I mentioned the acute lack of dentists available for NHS care in Arfon. The skill of being able to provide a service in Welsh is an essential skill for the workforce in an area like Arfon, where Welsh is the main language for many of us. Data that the Cabinet Secretary for health has provided to me confirm that a minority of students currently studying at the only dental school in Wales at present, at Cardiff University, stay in Wales to continue their basic dental training after graduation. She has also confirmed to me that discussions are taking place to look at the options to increase dental training places in response to a recommendation by the Senedd’s health committee that the Government should explore options to establish a dental school in the north.
Do you agree that the limited opportunities to study dentistry in Wales at present, and the lack of efficacy of those opportunities, given that those individuals don't stay here in sufficient numbers, means that we are missing an opportunity to embed the Welsh language along the pathway that leads to qualifying as a dentist? Do you therefore agree that creating a dental school in Bangor would give us the opportunity, as in the case of the medical school, to embed the Welsh language and the needs of the local area as a natural part of the training? What discussions have you had with Eluned Morgan to push the linguistic case for establishing such a school in Bangor, thereby confirming Bangor's status as a center of excellence for health and care training?
Yn fy nhrafodaeth fwyaf diweddar gyda fy nghydweithiwr, gwnaeth y Gweinidog sôn wrthyf i fod y brifysgol yng Nghaerdydd wedi gwneud ymrwymiad i gynyddu, dros y tair blynedd nesaf, y rhifau sydd yn dod o Gymru i tua 40 y cant o'r cohort. Fel rwy'n credu gwnaeth hi sôn yn y Siambr, byddai hyn yn gynnydd sylweddol, oherwydd mae e'n debygol y byddai pobl eisiau parhau i fod yn ddeintyddion yma yng Nghymru. Mae'r coleg Cymraeg yn gweithio hefyd gyda'r brifysgol yng Nghaerdydd i ddarparu grant sbarduno ym maes deintyddiaeth yn benodol i gynnig profiadau dysgu cyfrwng Cymraeg i fyfyrwyr. Bydd yr ysgol ddeintyddiaeth yno yn cynnal, yn ychwanegol i hynny, gyfres o ddigwyddiadau lle bydd darpar fyfyrwyr yn elwa o gwrdd â staff ac ati ac yn derbyn gwybodaeth am y broses ymgeisio. Mae'r cynllun hefyd yn gwarantu cyfweliad i siaradwyr Cymraeg ar gyfer mynediad mis Medi 2025 yn yr ysgol ddeintyddiaeth, felly rŷn ni'n gobeithio ac yn ffyddiog bydd hynny'n helpu i fynd i'r afael gyda'r her.
In my most recent discussion with my colleague, the Minister mentioned that Cardiff University had made a commitment to increase, over the next three years, the numbers coming from Wales to around 40 per cent of the cohort. As I think she mentioned in the Chamber, this would be a substantial increase, because it's likely that people would then want to continue to practise here in Wales. The coleg Cymraeg is also working with Cardiff University to provide a grant particularly in the area of dentistry to provide Welsh-medium experiences for students. The school of dentistry there, in addition to that, will hold a series of events where prospective students will benefit from meeting staff and so on and will receive information about the application process. The plan also guarantees access for Welsh speakers to an interview for entry into the school of dentistry in September 2025, and we hope that that will address the issue.
7. Beth yw disgwyliadau'r Ysgrifennydd Cabinet o gwmnïau o ran darparu buddion cymunedol diriaethol mewn perthynas â phrosiectau cynhyrchu ynni? OQ61023
7. What are the Cabinet Secretary's expectations of companies providing tangible community benefits in relation to energy-production projects? OQ61023
Community involvement is crucial to our energy policy and my expectation is that all new projects have at least an element of local ownership. My objective is to retain social and economic benefit for renewable projects to support a just transition to a net-zero energy system.
Mae cyfranogiad cymunedol yn hanfodol i'n polisi ynni ac rwy'n disgwyl i bob prosiect newydd gael o leiaf elfen o berchnogaeth leol. Fy amcan yw cadw budd cymdeithasol ac economaidd ar gyfer prosiectau adnewyddadwy i gefnogi pontio teg i system ynni sero net.
Diolch yn fawr am yr ateb yna.
Thank you for that response.
Real and tangible community benefits have been found to be crucial in winning over local residents when it comes to renewable energy schemes. These benefits schemes can go further, but at least they are being proposed. Unfortunately, when it comes to coal extraction schemes, community benefits are nowhere to be seen. There is a particularly awful example in my region of a community being ridden over roughshod by the owners of the Ffos-y-fran opencast mine, who have left behind an environmental disaster after making vast amounts of profits over nearly two decades of noise and dust for local residents.
Another coal extraction scheme in my region on the site of the former Bedwas colliery is promising to restore and, in some cases, enhance the land once it has removed thousands of tonnes of coal. However, there doesn't seem to be any mention of a tangible community benefit as yet. Cabinet Secretary, do you agree with me that, whenever natural resources are extracted, in whatever form, there should be recompense for nearby towns and villages in the form of a tangible community benefit that has a long and lasting impact?
Gwelwyd bod manteision cymunedol real a diriaethol yn hanfodol er mwyn denu cefnogaeth trigolion lleol i gynlluniau ynni adnewyddadwy. Gall y cynlluniau budd-daliadau hyn fynd ymhellach, ond o leiaf maent yn cael eu cynnig. Yn anffodus, o ran cynlluniau gwaith glo, ni welir buddion cymunedol yn unman. Mae yna enghraifft arbennig o wael yn fy rhanbarth i o gymuned yn cael ei cham-drin yn llwyr gan berchnogion pwll glo brig Ffos-y-fran, sydd wedi gadael trychineb amgylcheddol ar eu holau ar ôl gwneud llawer iawn o elw dros bron i ddau ddegawd o sŵn a llwch i drigolion lleol.
Mae cynllun gwaith glo arall yn fy rhanbarth ar safle hen lofa Bedwas yn addo adfer, a gwella'r tir mewn rhai achosion, ar ôl codi miloedd o dunelli o lo. Fodd bynnag, nid yw'n ymddangos bod unrhyw sôn am fudd cymunedol diriaethol eto. Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet, a ydych chi'n cytuno â mi, pryd bynnag yr echdynnir adnoddau naturiol, ar ba ffurf bynnag, y dylid cael iawndal i drefi a phentrefi cyfagos ar ffurf budd cymunedol diriaethol sy'n cael effaith hir a pharhaol?
Well, what I think we both want to see is an energy ecosystem that isn't extractive in that sense and that is renewable in the genuine sense and takes full advantage of the renewable energy resources that we can boast as a nation. I think that's the ambition that we probably both share. And I know that he'll welcome the launch of Ynni Cymru, which I think will make a significant contribution to changing the landscape in that direction. It has already committed almost £1 million-worth of resource grants, which will help community groups directly to participate in schemes and to accelerate the projects that we have on the horizon. So, I share with him his ambition to make sure that the community, in any area where there is generation, or, indeed, transmission, is able to point to a benefit to them, which is good for the project but is also good for our communities.
Wel, rwy'n credu bod y ddau ohonom eisiau gweld ecosystem ynni nad yw'n echdynnol yn yr ystyr honno ac sy'n adnewyddadwy yn yr ystyr wirioneddol ac yn manteisio'n llawn ar yr adnoddau ynni adnewyddadwy y gallwn eu brolio fel cenedl. Rwy'n credu mai dyna'r uchelgais y mae'r ddau ohonom yn ei rannu, yn ôl pob tebyg. Ac rwy'n gwybod y bydd yn croesawu lansiad Ynni Cymru, y credaf y bydd yn gwneud cyfraniad sylweddol at newid y dirwedd i'r cyfeiriad hwnnw. Mae eisoes wedi ymrwymo gwerth bron i £1 filiwn o grantiau adnoddau, a fydd yn helpu grwpiau cymunedol yn uniongyrchol i gymryd rhan mewn cynlluniau ac i gyflymu'r prosiectau sydd gennym ar y gorwel. Felly, rwy'n rhannu ei uchelgais i sicrhau bod y gymuned, mewn unrhyw ardal lle ceir cynhyrchiant, neu drawsyrru yn wir, yn gallu tynnu sylw at fudd iddynt hwy, sy'n dda i'r prosiect ond hefyd yn dda i'n cymunedau.
8. A wnaiff yr Ysgrifennydd Cabinet roi'r wybodaeth ddiweddaraf am gynnydd Llywodraeth Cymru wrth weithredu argymhellion y Comisiwn Gwaith Teg? OQ61003
8. Will the Cabinet Secretary provide an update on the Welsh Government's progress in implementing the Fair Work Commission's recommendations? OQ61003
This Government remains committed to using all the levers we have to embed fair work in Wales. We published our latest progress report on 16 April. The report shows that all priority recommendations have been implemented and the vast majority of the remaining recommendations have been realised or are in the process of being put into practice.
Mae'r Llywodraeth hon yn parhau i fod yn ymrwymedig i ddefnyddio'r holl ysgogiadau sydd gennym i wreiddio gwaith teg yng Nghymru. Cyhoeddasom ein hadroddiad cynnydd diweddaraf ar 16 Ebrill. Mae'r adroddiad yn dangos bod yr holl argymhellion â blaenoriaeth wedi'u rhoi ar waith a bod y mwyafrif helaeth o'r argymhellion sy'n weddill wedi'u gwireddu neu yn y broses o gael eu gweithredu.
Thank you for that update. It's good to see that, despite the challenges we face, progress is being made on the many recommendations in the Fair Work Commission's report. I'm particularly pleased to see the work being done here by the Welsh Labour Government to promote the positive role of trade unions in the workplace and beyond. This, of course, is in stark contrast to the current incumbent Tory Government who, time and time again, have attacked trade unions and sought to take away hard-fought-for rights of working people. Today is, in fact, International Workers Day, an annual commemoration of the struggles and gains made by the labour movement. So, Minister, would you agree with me that we need a Labour Government returned at the general election and the implementation of UK Labour's transformative new deal for workers?
Diolch am y diweddariad hwnnw. Er gwaethaf yr heriau sy'n ein hwynebu, mae'n dda gweld bod cynnydd yn cael ei wneud ar yr argymhellion niferus yn adroddiad y Comisiwn Gwaith Teg. Rwy'n arbennig o falch o weld y gwaith sy'n cael ei wneud yma gan Lywodraeth Lafur Cymru ar hyrwyddo rôl gadarnhaol undebau llafur yn y gweithle a thu hwnt. Mae hyn mewn cyferbyniad llwyr â'r Llywodraeth Dorïaidd bresennol sydd, dro ar ôl tro, wedi ymosod ar undebau llafur ac wedi ceisio dileu'r hawliau yr ymladdwyd yn galed i'w cael i weithwyr. Heddiw yw Diwrnod Rhyngwladol y Gweithwyr, sy'n coffáu'r brwydrau a'r enillion a welodd y mudiad llafur. Felly, Weinidog, a fyddech chi'n cytuno â mi fod angen ethol Llywodraeth Lafur yn yr etholiad cyffredinol a gweithredu cytundeb newydd trawsnewidiol Llafur yn y DU ar gyfer gweithwyr?
Diolch ichi am godi'r pwyntiau pwysig hynny.
Thank you for raising those important points.
I should start by declaring an interest. I'm a proud trade unionist and have spent the best part of my working life advocating for a better deal at work. It's right and fitting, on International Workers Day, that we reflect and recognise the role that trade unions have played not just in making work better, but in shaping a fairer society as well. But we know that that work is, sadly, far from done and we need look no further than the tired and toxic UK Tory Government and the series of ideological attacks it has launched on trade unions, not least the pernicious anti-democratic and anti-worker Strikes (Minimum Service Levels) Act 2023. We compare this to what we're doing here in Wales with a Welsh Labour Government that is committed to social partnership working and has legislated to make that part of our devolved DNA. Whilst that legislation is significant, it's not just legislation alone, or about that. Our unions and the world of work pilot project is teaching the next generation of workers, employers and entrepreneurs about their rights and responsibilities in the workplace. But you're right, we could do so much more if there was a fairer floor when it comes to employment rights and protections. So, I absolutely agree that we need a UK Labour Government and the full implementation of a new deal for workers; it would both empower workers, but also our Welsh way of working in social partnership.
Dylwn ddechrau drwy ddatgan diddordeb. Rwy'n undebwr llafur balch ac rwyf wedi treulio'r rhan orau o fy mywyd gwaith yn dadlau dros fargen well yn y gweithle. Mae'n iawn ac yn addas, ar Ddiwrnod Rhyngwladol y Gweithwyr, ein bod yn ystyried ac yn cydnabod y rôl y mae undebau llafur wedi'i chwarae nid yn unig i wneud gwaith yn well, ond yn llunio cymdeithas decach hefyd. Ond gwyddom fod y gwaith hwnnw, yn anffodus, ymhell o fod wedi'i wneud ac nid oes angen edrych ymhellach na Llywodraeth Dorïaidd flinedig a gwenwynig y DU a'r gyfres o ymosodiadau ideolegol y mae wedi'u gwneud ar undebau llafur, a'r Ddeddf Streiciau (Isafswm Lefelau Gwasanaeth) 2023 wrth-ddemocrataidd a gwrth-weithwyr niweidiol. Rydym yn cymharu hyn â'r hyn a wnawn ni yma yng Nghymru gyda Llywodraeth Lafur Cymru sydd wedi ymrwymo i weithio mewn partneriaeth gymdeithasol ac sydd wedi deddfu i wneud hynny'n rhan o'n DNA datganoledig. Er bod y ddeddfwriaeth honno'n arwyddocaol, mae'n ymwneud â mwy na deddfwriaeth yn unig. Mae ein hundebau a'r prosiect peilot byd gwaith yn addysgu'r genhedlaeth nesaf o weithwyr, cyflogwyr ac entrepreneuriaid am eu hawliau a'u cyfrifoldebau yn y gweithle. Ond rydych chi'n iawn, gallem wneud cymaint mwy pe bai gennym sylfaen decach o hawliau ac amddiffyniadau cyflogaeth. Felly, rwy'n cytuno'n llwyr fod angen Llywodraeth Lafur arnom yn y DU a gweithredu bargen newydd ar gyfer gweithwyr yn llawn; byddai'r ddau beth yn grymuso gweithwyr, yn ogystal â'n ffordd Gymreig o weithio mewn partneriaeth gymdeithasol.
Diolch i'r Gweinidog a'r Ysgrifennydd Cabinet, felly, am y sesiwn yna.
I thank the Minister and Cabinet Secretary for those answers.
Eitem 2 sydd nesaf—cwestiynau i Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet dros Iechyd a Gofal Cymdeithasol yw hwn. Mae'r cwestiwn cyntaf gan Mark Drakeford.
Item 2 is next—questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care. The first question is from Mark Drakeford.
1. A wnaiff yr Ysgrifennydd Cabinet roi diweddariad ar yr ymdrechion i amrywiaethu'r gweithlu deintyddol? OQ61008
1. Will the Cabinet Secretary provide an update on efforts to diversify the dental workforce? OQ61008
Diolch yn fawr. The Welsh Government has long held the view that health professionals should try and work at the top of their licence, allowing others who are appropriately qualified to intervene where appropriate. Until recently, a regulatory issue prevented qualified dental therapists, hygienists and clinical dental technicians from opening and closing NHS courses of dental treatment. This issue has now been resolved, enabling those dental professionals to play a full role in providing NHS care, which will make a difference to the diversity of the dental workforce.
Diolch yn fawr. Mae Llywodraeth Cymru wedi bod o'r farn ers tro y dylai gweithwyr iechyd proffesiynol geisio gweithio ar frig eu trwydded, gan ganiatáu i eraill sydd â chymwysterau priodol ymyrryd lle bo hynny'n briodol. Tan yn ddiweddar, roedd mater rheoleiddio yn atal therapyddion deintyddol cymwysedig, hylenwyr a thechnegwyr deintyddol clinigol rhag dechrau a chwblhau cyrsiau triniaeth ddeintyddol y GIG. Mae'r mater hwn bellach wedi'i ddatrys, gan alluogi gweithwyr deintyddol proffesiynol i chwarae rhan lawn yn darparu gofal GIG, a fydd yn gwneud gwahaniaeth i amrywiaeth y gweithlu deintyddol.
I thank the Cabinet Secretary for that. Llywydd, if we think of general practice these days, more and more we refer to the wider clinical team, those other people with clinical skills who can be part of an effort to provide primary care in communities—practice nurses, physiotherapists and so on. Why has the dental field been so slow to adopt the same approach? Well, it's partly, as the Cabinet Secretary has said, because of regulatory inhibitions; I congratulate her on having put that right. But it also needs to be supplemented by an effort to train more people who can carry out the more routine end of dentistry.
It's certainly not the case that dentists in Wales operate at the top of their clinical licence; far too often, they carry out routine treatments that simply don't need the skills of a fully trained dentist. So, my question for the Cabinet Secretary is: what more can the Welsh Government do to make sure that there is a sufficient supply of other members of that clinical team being trained? How can we use that to grapple with the fact that, too often, the dental profession has a monopoly of supply and uses that to restrict the supply of NHS dentistry in order to promote the chances of more lucrative private practice?
Diolch i Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet. Lywydd, os meddyliwn am ymarfer cyffredinol y dyddiau hyn, cyfeiriwn fwy a mwy at y tîm clinigol ehangach, y bobl eraill sydd â sgiliau clinigol a all fod yn rhan o ymdrech i ddarparu gofal sylfaenol mewn cymunedau—nyrsys practis, ffisiotherapyddion ac yn y blaen. Pam mae'r maes deintyddol wedi bod mor araf i fabwysiadu'r un ymagwedd? Wel, yn rhannol oherwydd cyfyngiadau rheoleiddiol, fel y dywedodd Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet; rwy'n ei llongyfarch ar unioni hynny. Ond mae angen iddo hefyd gael ei ategu gan ymdrech i hyfforddi mwy o bobl sy'n gallu cyflawni gwaith mwy cyffredinol ym maes deintyddiaeth.
Yn sicr, nid yw'n wir fod deintyddion yng Nghymru yn gweithredu ar frig eu trwydded glinigol; yn llawer rhy aml, maent yn cyflawni triniaethau cyffredinol nad oes angen sgiliau deintydd wedi'i hyfforddi'n llawn i'w gwneud. Felly, fy nghwestiwn i Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet yw: beth arall y gall Llywodraeth Cymru ei wneud i sicrhau bod cyflenwad digonol o aelodau eraill o'r tîm clinigol hwnnw'n cael eu hyfforddi? Sut y gallwn ni ddefnyddio hynny i fynd i'r afael â'r ffaith bod gan y proffesiwn deintyddol fonopoli ar gyflenwad yn rhy aml ac mae'n defnyddio hynny i gyfyngu ar y cyflenwad o ddeintyddiaeth y GIG er mwyn hyrwyddo'r cyfle i fanteisio ar ymarfer preifat mwy proffidiol?
Diolch yn fawr. I know that the former First Minister led the way, when he was the health Minister, in terms of making sure that we use the whole team around primary care, certainly in terms of general medical services, and I'm grateful to you for that. But, you're absolutely right, we haven't seen that pattern develop in quite the same way in relation to dentistry, and that is something that we are determined to address. There was an issue, as I suggested in my answer, where there was a technical issue stopping dental therapists, for example, from opening and closing those NHS courses of treatment. That's now been changed, so there is at least an opportunity now for that door to be opened.
So, the issue then is: where are these dental therapists? Who are they? How do we train them? This was one of the things that I focused on very early in my tenure, because I recognised that, if we fundamentally want to look at the model, then you can't do that without actually providing the numbers. If you're inverting the triangle, you need to make sure that you've got enough people in training. So, certainly, it was an instruction I gave to Health Education and Improvement Wales a couple of years ago, and, certainly, I can assure you that we have doubled the number of dental therapists in training since 2023. So, things are getting better, but we've got a long way to go.
I'm also really pleased that, the first graduates to qualify from Bangor University's dental hygiene programme, they're also coming on stream. I guess the next challenge for us is to make sure—obviously, we need to increase those numbers, but also to make sure that once they're trained they don't go off to the private sector. That is something that we need to find an answer to as well.
Diolch yn fawr. Gwn fod y cyn Brif Weinidog wedi arwain y ffordd, pan oedd yn Weinidog iechyd, ar sicrhau ein bod yn defnyddio'r tîm cyfan o amgylch gofal sylfaenol, yn sicr o ran gwasanaethau meddygol cyffredinol, ac rwy'n ddiolchgar ichi am hynny. Ond rydych chi'n hollol gywir, nid ydym wedi gweld y patrwm hwnnw'n datblygu yn yr un ffordd yn union mewn deintyddiaeth, ac mae hynny'n rhywbeth yr ydym yn benderfynol o fynd i'r afael ag ef. Fel yr awgrymais yn fy ateb, roedd yna broblem lle roedd mater technegol yn atal therapyddion deintyddol, er enghraifft, rhag dechrau a chwblhau cyrsiau triniaeth GIG. Mae hynny bellach wedi newid, felly mae cyfle nawr o leiaf i'r drws hwnnw gael ei agor.
Felly, y broblem wedyn yw: lle mae'r therapyddion deintyddol hyn? Pwy ydynt? Sut mae eu hyfforddi? Roedd hyn yn un o'r pethau y canolbwyntiais arno'n gynnar iawn yn fy nghyfnod yn y swydd, oherwydd os ydym eisiau edrych ar y model yn sylfaenol, roeddwn yn sylweddoli na allwch chi wneud hynny heb ddarparu'r rhifau mewn gwirionedd. Os ydych chi'n gwrthdroi'r triongl, mae angen ichi sicrhau bod gennych chi ddigon o bobl yn hyfforddi. Felly, yn sicr, roedd yn gyfarwyddyd a roddais i Addysg a Gwella Iechyd Cymru ychydig flynyddoedd yn ôl, ac yn sicr, gallaf eich sicrhau ein bod wedi dyblu nifer y therapyddion deintyddol sy'n cael eu hyfforddi ers 2023. Felly, mae pethau'n gwella, ond mae gennym ffordd bell i fynd.
Rwyf hefyd yn falch iawn hefyd fod y graddedigion cyntaf i gymhwyso o raglen hylendid deintyddol Prifysgol Bangor yn dechrau gweithio. Mae'n debyg mai'r her nesaf i ni yw sicrhau—yn amlwg, mae angen inni gynyddu'r niferoedd hynny, a gwneud yn siŵr hefyd, pan fyddant wedi'u hyfforddi, nad ydynt yn mynd i'r sector preifat. Mae hynny'n rhywbeth y mae'n rhaid inni ddod o hyd i ateb iddo hefyd.
I have to say that I have great respect for the former First Minister, but I just find it ironic that he's now asking his previous health Minister a question on an area of policy where Welsh Labour has miserably failed, during your tenure.
Now, the people's priorities are for this Welsh Labour Government to provide more dentists in Wales. However, what the previous Welsh Government has overseen is rapid decline in NHS dental services—60 per cent, in fact, decrease in the provision, because of your new contracts. They've done nothing to tackle the reality in Aberconwy that we now have a three-tier system: people who can access private treatment, people who can access NHS treatment and people who are left unable to access either. It's an absolute disgrace, hence my comment about the irony. You've only been out of post, First Minister, a few weeks, and you're asking a question that, really, you should know the answer to. Will the Cabinet Secretary commission a piece of work to model what would be required for you, as the Welsh Government, to deliver full NHS services to all people living in Wales? Diolch yn fawr.
Mae'n rhaid imi ddweud bod gennyf barch mawr at y cyn-Brif Weinidog, ond rwy'n ei hystyried yn eironig ei fod bellach yn gofyn cwestiwn i'w Weinidog iechyd blaenorol ar faes polisi lle mae Llafur Cymru wedi methu'n druenus yn ystod eich cyfnod chi yn y swydd.
Nawr, blaenoriaethau'r bobl yw i'r Llywodraeth Lafur hon yng Nghymru ddarparu mwy o ddeintyddion yng Nghymru. Fodd bynnag, dan oruchwyliaeth Llywodraeth flaenorol Cymru, gwelwyd dirywiad cyflym yng ngwasanaethau deintyddol y GIG—60 y cant o ostyngiad yn y ddarpariaeth, oherwydd eich contractau newydd. Nid ydynt wedi gwneud unrhyw beth i fynd i'r afael â'r realiti yn Aberconwy fod gennym system dair haen erbyn hyn: pobl sy'n gallu cael triniaeth breifat, pobl sy'n gallu cael triniaeth y GIG a phobl sy'n methu cael mynediad at y naill na'r llall. Mae'n warth llwyr, a dyna'r rheswm dros fy sylw am yr eironi. Ychydig wythnosau sydd wedi bod ers ichi adael y swydd, Brif Weinidog, ac rydych chi'n gofyn cwestiwn y dylech chi wybod yr ateb iddo. A wnaiff Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet gomisiynu gwaith i fodelu'r hyn y byddai ei angen arnoch chi, fel Llywodraeth Cymru, i ddarparu gwasanaethau GIG llawn i bawb sy'n byw yng Nghymru? Diolch yn fawr.
We've made no secret that the challenges around dentistry are real, and we have made efforts, through changing the contract, to address some of those issues, in particular for those people who haven't been able to access NHS dentistry for a long time. And I'm pleased to say that, by today, around 300,000 new NHS patients have been able to access those NHS services. You're quite right, though; I have actually commissioned a piece of work to look at what does this look like over the long term—a 10-year plan—because you can't switch dentists on overnight, you can't even turn dental therapists on overnight, but also you've got to take account of things like the fact that, actually, the population is changing. The population in west Wales, for example, is likely to be slightly older and perhaps need a different kind of dental response from those in other parts of the country. So, all of those things are things that we know need to be addressed. Our current challenge, of course, is one of finance. So, we know what needs to be done, but we are, obviously, financially constrained by the fact that, actually, your UK Government has crashed the economy and given us a poor deal when it comes to money for health.
Nid ydym wedi gwneud unrhyw gyfrinach o'r ffaith bod yr heriau sy'n ymwneud â deintyddiaeth yn rhai go iawn, a thrwy newid y contract, rydym wedi ceisio mynd i'r afael â rhai o'r materion hynny, yn enwedig i bobl nad ydynt wedi gallu cael mynediad at ddeintyddiaeth y GIG ers amser maith. Ac rwy'n falch o ddweud, erbyn heddiw, fod tua 300,000 o gleifion GIG newydd wedi gallu cael mynediad at y gwasanaethau GIG hynny. Rydych chi'n hollol gywir; rwyf wedi comisiynu gwaith i edrych ar sut mae hyn yn edrych dros y tymor hir—cynllun 10 mlynedd—oherwydd ni allwch greu deintyddion dros nos, ni allwch greu therapyddion deintyddol hyd yn oed dros nos, ond hefyd mae'n rhaid ichi ystyried pethau fel y ffaith bod y boblogaeth yn newid. Mae'r boblogaeth yng ngorllewin Cymru, er enghraifft, yn debygol o fod ychydig yn hŷn ac efallai fod angen math gwahanol o ymateb deintyddol i'r rhai mewn rhannau eraill o'r wlad. Felly, mae'r holl bethau hynny'n bethau y gwyddom fod angen mynd i'r afael â nhw. Ein her bresennol, wrth gwrs, yw cyllid. Felly, rydym yn gwybod beth sydd angen ei wneud, ond yn amlwg, rydym wedi ein cyfyngu'n ariannol gan y ffaith bod eich Llywodraeth chi yn y DU wedi chwalu'r economi ac wedi rhoi bargen wael inni o ran arian ar gyfer iechyd.
2. Pa gamau y mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn eu cymryd i atal clefydau drwy hyrwyddo byw'n iach? OQ60995
2. What action is the Welsh Government taking to prevent disease through the promotion of healthy living? OQ60995
We deploy a range of strategies to support people in Wales to live healthy lives. Not smoking, being physically active where possible and being a healthy weight are all positive steps we can take to prevent avoidable diseases, such as type 2 diabetes.
Rydym yn defnyddio amrywiaeth o strategaethau i gefnogi pobl yng Nghymru i fyw bywydau iach. Mae peidio ag ysmygu, bod yn gorfforol egnïol lle bo hynny'n bosibl a chario pwysau iach i gyd yn gamau cadarnhaol y gallwn eu cymryd i atal clefydau y gellir eu hosgoi, fel diabetes math 2.
I thank the Minister for that response. Lifestyle and health are closely related, and the choices made about diet, activity, sleep and smoking can affect health and well-being. A healthy lifestyle can reduce the risk of many diseases, improve quality of life and promote recovery. Improvement in lifestyle is necessary for many people, with obesity being a major cause of type 2 diabetes, coronary heart disease, some types of cancer, such as breast cancer and bowel cancer, and strokes. So, with its early preventative approach, social prescribing can help ease the burden on front-line specialist services. What progress is being made on increasing social prescribing, so that we get people fit and well, rather than visiting doctors, visiting accident and emergency departments, due to being seriously ill?
Diolch i'r Gweinidog am yr ymateb hwnnw. Mae cysylltiad agos rhwng ffordd o fyw ac iechyd, a gall y dewisiadau a wneir am ddeiet, gweithgarwch, cwsg ac ysmygu effeithio ar iechyd a lles. Gall ffordd iach o fyw leihau'r risg o lawer o glefydau, gwella ansawdd bywyd a hyrwyddo adferiad. Mae llawer o bobl angen gwella'u ffordd o fyw, gyda gordewdra'n un o brif achosion diabetes math 2, clefyd coronaidd y galon, rhai mathau o ganser, fel canser y fron a chanser y coluddyn, a strôc. Felly, gyda'i ddull ataliol cynnar, gall presgripsiynu cymdeithasol helpu i leddfu'r baich ar wasanaethau arbenigol rheng flaen. Pa gynnydd sy'n cael ei wneud ar gynyddu presgripsiynu cymdeithasol, fel ein bod yn gwella ffitrwydd ac iechyd pobl, yn hytrach na'u bod yn ymweld â meddygon, yn ymweld ag adrannau damweiniau ac achosion brys, am eu bod yn ddifrifol wael?
Thank you very much. Well, I do think we need to be really careful. We perhaps sometimes overmedicalise some of issues that come through our GP surgeries, and that's why I do think that there's a real opportunity when it comes to social prescribing. This, of course, is not something new; it's something that's been going on throughout Wales, but in pockets. And one of the issues that certainly the former well-being Minister was keen to address, and I know that the new mental health Minister is keen to look at as well, is the issue of making sure that, when people are referred in relation to social prescribing, there is a quality around that, so that GPs can—. These, very often, are vulnerable people; you need to have some assurances around it. So, I think there are real opportunities when it comes to social prescribing. That framework now has been consulted upon, so we are charging ahead in relation to the opportunities around social prescribing. But you're quite right, particularly in relation to how do you change people's lifestyles. It's very difficult, it's very personal. What is it that motivates people? And I do hope that people will take up the opportunities, not just through social prescribing, but also through looking at the support that we have that can be effectively tailored to the individual. So, Healthy Weight Healthy You, for example, people can go onto that website and get fairly tailored support that will help them, for example, in their efforts to lose weight.
Diolch yn fawr iawn. Rwy'n credu bod angen inni fod yn ofalus iawn. Efallai ein bod weithiau'n gor-feddygoli rhai o'r materion sy'n dod trwy ein meddygfeydd, a dyna pam y credaf fod cyfle gwirioneddol yn sgil presgripsiynu cymdeithasol. Nid yw hyn yn rhywbeth newydd wrth gwrs; mae'n rhywbeth sydd wedi bod yn digwydd ledled Cymru, ond mewn pocedi. Ac un o'r materion yr oedd y cyn Weinidog llesiant yn sicr yn awyddus i fynd i'r afael â nhw, a gwn fod y Gweinidog iechyd meddwl newydd yn awyddus i edrych arno hefyd, yw gwneud yn siŵr, pan gaiff pobl eu hatgyfeirio mewn perthynas â phresgripsiynu cymdeithasol, fod yna ansawdd ynghlwm wrth hynny, fel bod meddygon teulu yn gallu—. Mae'r rhain, yn aml iawn, yn bobl fregus; mae angen ichi gael rhywfaint o sicrwydd o'i gwmpas. Felly, rwy'n credu bod cyfleoedd go iawn i'w cael yn sgil presgripsiynu cymdeithasol. Cafwyd ymgynghoriad ar y fframwaith hwnnw bellach, felly rydym yn bwrw ymlaen mewn perthynas â'r cyfleoedd sy'n gysylltiedig â phresgripsiynu cymdeithasol. Ond rydych chi'n llygad eich lle, yn enwedig o ran y ffordd yr ewch ati i newid ffordd o fyw pobl. Mae'n anodd iawn, mae'n bersonol iawn. Beth sy'n ysgogi pobl? Ac rwy'n gobeithio y bydd pobl yn manteisio ar y cyfleoedd, nid yn unig drwy bresgripsiynu cymdeithasol, ond hefyd drwy edrych ar y gefnogaeth sydd gennym y gellir ei theilwra'n effeithiol i'r unigolyn. Felly, Pwysau Iach Byw'n Iach, er enghraifft, gall pobl fynd ar y wefan honno a chael cefnogaeth wedi'i theilwra'n deg a fydd yn eu helpu, er enghraifft yn eu hymdrechion i golli pwysau.
With the issue of preventative health being raised, I would like to take the opportunity to raise the issue of bowel cancer prevention in Wales. Bowel cancer is the fourth most common cancer and the second-biggest cancer killer in Wales. There has been good progress on testing for Lynch syndrome in Wales, which is a condition associated with genetic predisposition to bowel cancer, but approximately 30 per cent of bowel cancer cases in the UK are linked to a fibre-deficient diet, 11 per cent linked to obesity, and 7 per cent linked to tobacco. A combination of these behaviours will significantly increase your chances of developing the disease. So, could the Cabinet Secretary outline what action the Welsh Government is taking to raise awareness of the behavioural risk factors associated with bowel cancer? Thank you.
Gyda iechyd ataliol wedi cael ei godi, hoffwn fanteisio ar y cyfle i sôn am atal canser y coluddyn yng Nghymru. Canser y coluddyn yw'r pedwerydd canser mwyaf cyffredin a'r ail laddwr canser mwyaf yng Nghymru. Mae cynnydd da wedi bod o ran profi am syndrom Lynch yng Nghymru, sef cyflwr sy'n gysylltiedig â rhagdueddiad genetig i ganser y coluddyn, ond mae tua 30 y cant o achosion canser y coluddyn yn y DU yn gysylltiedig â diffyg ffeibr yn y deiet, mae 11 y cant yn gysylltiedig â gordewdra, a 7 y cant yn gysylltiedig â thybaco. Bydd cyfuniad o'r ymddygiadau hyn yn cynyddu eich perygl o ddatblygu'r clefyd yn sylweddol. Felly, a allai Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet amlinellu pa gamau y mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn eu cymryd i godi ymwybyddiaeth o'r ffactorau risg ymddygiadol sy'n gysylltiedig â chanser y coluddyn? Diolch.
Thanks very much. Well, one of the things I'm very proud of is the fact that we've now reduced the age at which screening takes place in relation to bowel cancer, and that is already making a difference. And people are quite keen to get involved in that. Some of the problem though, if you look at the disparities and outcomes when it comes to people who have cancer—any kind of cancer—is the difference between the poorer areas and the richer areas, and we have to do more to get some of our poorer areas to engage in this. So, targeted action to make sure that people in those poorer areas are returning that screening is absolutely crucial. I think that that certainly has got to be a part of what we do, but you're quite right: we've got to get, before that, into the prevention space, and certainly I hope that, with the Healthy Weight Healthy You kind of support that we can put in place, people will recognise what they need to do to maintain a healthy lifestyle.
Diolch yn fawr. Wel, un o'r pethau rwy'n falch iawn ohono yw'r ffaith ein bod bellach wedi gostwng yr oedran y mae sgrinio'n dechrau mewn perthynas â chanser y coluddyn, ac mae hynny eisoes yn gwneud gwahaniaeth. Ac mae pobl yn awyddus iawn i gymryd rhan yn hynny. Mae rhan o'r broblem serch hynny, os edrychwch chi ar y gwahaniaethau a'r canlyniadau o ran pobl sydd â chanser—unrhyw fath o ganser—yn ymwneud â'r gwahaniaeth rhwng yr ardaloedd tlotach a'r ardaloedd cyfoethocach, ac mae'n rhaid inni wneud mwy i gael ein hardaloedd tlotach yn rhan o hyn. Felly, mae'n gwbl hanfodol fod gennym gamau wedi'u targedu i sicrhau bod pobl yn yr ardaloedd tlotach yn dychwelyd y profion sgrinio hynny. Yn sicr, rwy'n credu bod yn rhaid i hynny fod yn rhan o'r hyn a wnawn, ond rydych chi'n hollol gywir: cyn hynny, mae'n rhaid inni wneud gwaith atal, ac yn sicr rwy'n gobeithio, gyda'r math o gefnogaeth Pwysau Iach Byw'n Iach y gallwn ei rhoi ar waith, y bydd pobl yn cydnabod yr hyn y mae angen iddynt ei wneud i gynnal ffordd o fyw iach.
Cwestiynau nawr gan lefarwyr y pleidiau. Llefarydd y Ceidwadwyr, Sam Rowlands.
Questions now from the party spokespeople. The Conservatives' spokesperson, Sam Rowlands.
Diolch, Llywydd. Cabinet Secretary, this is my first opportunity to question you in my new role as shadow health spokesperson and I'm certainly looking forward to our exchanges in this Chamber. I'm looking forward to working constructively with you on areas and on issues where I can, but also looking to hold you to account, and the Welsh Government to account, on areas that need improving.
One such area that I want to start on here today is around accident and emergency. Only yesterday, Cardiff and Vale University Health Board issued an urgent warning regarding the emergency unit at University Hospital Wales—the largest hospital in Wales—and that was on the same day, yesterday, that, in this place, we had four hours allocated for us to debate putting 36 more politicians in this Chamber at the cost of tens of millions of pounds. So, do you think you have the right priorities?
Diolch, Lywydd. Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet, dyma fy nghyfle cyntaf i'ch holi yn fy rôl newydd fel llefarydd iechyd yr wrthblaid ac rwy'n sicr yn edrych ymlaen at ein trafodaethau yn y Siambr hon. Rwy'n edrych ymlaen at weithio'n adeiladol gyda chi ar feysydd ac ar faterion lle gallaf wneud hynny, ond hefyd rwy'n bwriadu eich dwyn i gyfrif, a dwyn Llywodraeth Cymru i gyfrif, ar feysydd y mae angen eu gwella.
Mae un maes o'r fath yr wyf eisiau ei grybwyll yma heddiw yn ymwneud ag adrannau damweiniau ac achosion brys. Ddoe, cyhoeddodd Bwrdd Iechyd Prifysgol Caerdydd a'r Fro rybudd brys ynglŷn â'r uned frys yn Ysbyty Athrofaol Cymru—yr ysbyty mwyaf yng Nghymru—a hynny ar yr un diwrnod, ddoe, ag yr oedd gennym bedair awr wedi'u neilltuo i drafod cael 36 yn fwy o wleidyddion yn y Siambr hon ar gost o ddegau o filiynau o bunnoedd. Felly, a ydych chi'n credu bod gennych chi'r blaenoriaethau cywir?
Well, thanks very much. First of all, can I welcome Sam to your new role as Conservative spokesperson? And before we get into a discussion, I just want to pay tribute also to Russell George, with whom I worked over a number of years. I just want to pay tribute to him on the way you carried out that role, Russell, and thank you for the kind of relationship that we were able to—. You held me to account; you kept me on my toes, but we were able to make sure that we did continue a dialogue. I know that my task is challenging, but I have a small army to support me, and I don't underestimate the kind of work that opposition spokespersons, including Plaid Cymru, have to do without the kind of support that I can rely on. So, thank you also for taking on what is a difficult task.
Just in relation to accident and emergency, I think probably one of the things to point out is that performance in major emergency departments, of course, is challenged at the moment. We have real issues in relation to delayed transfers of care—that is always part of the reason why there are hold-ups—but it's probably worth also noting that performance in emergency departments was better in Wales than in England in eight out of the last 12 months against the four-hour target.
Diolch yn fawr iawn. Yn gyntaf oll, a gaf i groesawu Sam i'ch rôl newydd fel llefarydd y Ceidwadwyr? A chyn inni barhau â'r drafodaeth, hoffwn dalu teyrnged hefyd i Russell George, y bûm yn gweithio gydag ef dros nifer o flynyddoedd. Hoffwn dalu teyrnged i chi am y ffordd y gwnaethoch chi gyflawni'r rôl honno, Russell, a diolch am y math o berthynas y gwnaethom—. Fe wnaethoch chi fy nwyn i gyfrif; fe wnaethoch chi fy nghadw ar flaenau fy nhraed, ond fe lwyddasom i sicrhau ein bod ni'n parhau'r ddeialog. Rwy'n gwybod bod fy nhasg yn heriol, ond mae gennyf fyddin fach i fy nghefnogi, ac nid wyf yn tanbrisio'r math o waith y mae'n rhaid i lefarwyr y gwrthbleidiau, gan gynnwys Plaid Cymru, ei wneud heb y math o gefnogaeth y gallaf ddibynnu arni. Felly, diolch i chi hefyd am ymgymryd â'r dasg anodd hon.
Mewn perthynas ag adrannau damweiniau ac achosion brys, rwy'n credu y dylwn nodi bod perfformiad mewn adrannau damweiniau ac achosion brys mawr, wrth gwrs, yn heriol ar hyn o bryd. Mae gennym broblemau go iawn mewn perthynas ag oedi wrth drosglwyddo gofal—mae hynny bob amser yn rhan o'r rheswm pam fod oedi—ond mae'n debyg ei bod yn werth nodi hefyd bod perfformiad mewn adrannau damweiniau ac achosion brys wedi bod yn well yng Nghymru nag yn Lloegr mewn wyth o'r deuddeg mis diwethaf yn erbyn y targed pedair awr.
Thank you for your response, Cabinet Secretary, and thank you also for acknowledging some of the challenges that do exist in our accident and emergency rooms at the moment. But this goes back to having the right priorities and having a Government that is focused on dealing with the areas of concern that the people of Wales have.
And one such person wrote to me just last week, a member of the public, who, sadly, has terminal cancer, who wanted to express his experiences at a north Wales hospital, where they attended A&E with a letter from his GP to secure a bed on a ward to counter an ailment, but the hospital refused this and put him in the A&E waiting room, where they waited for 11 hours. By midnight, they were told they were better to go home. So, they came back in the next day and had a very similar experience, with people waiting more than 12 hours. Sadly, this isn't a one-off occasion, and there are far too many people having these experiences in our A&E waiting rooms. So, I wonder, for the sake of our doctors and nurses, who are having to work through this, and certainly for the patients, who are having to experience these conditions, could you outline what plan you have to tackle these excessive A&E waits?
Diolch am eich ymateb, Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet, a diolch hefyd am gydnabod rhai o'r heriau sy'n bodoli yn ein hadrannau damweiniau ac achosion brys ar hyn o bryd. Ond mae hyn yn ymwneud â chael y blaenoriaethau cywir a chael Llywodraeth sy'n canolbwyntio ar ymdrin â'r meysydd sy'n peri pryder i bobl Cymru.
Ac ysgrifennodd un person o'r fath ataf yr wythnos diwethaf, aelod o'r cyhoedd, sydd, yn anffodus, â chanser angheuol, eisiau mynegi ei brofiadau mewn ysbyty yng ngogledd Cymru, lle aethant i adran ddamweiniau ac achosion brys gyda llythyr gan ei feddyg teulu i sicrhau gwely ar ward i drin anhwylder, ond gwrthododd yr ysbyty hyn a'i roi yn yr ystafell aros yr adran ddamweiniau ac achosion brys, lle bu'n aros am 11 awr. Erbyn hanner nos, dywedwyd wrthynt y byddai'n well iddynt fynd adref. Felly, daethant yn ôl drannoeth a chael profiad tebyg iawn, gyda phobl yn aros mwy na 12 awr. Yn anffodus, nid yw hwn yn achlysur untro, ac mae llawer gormod o bobl yn cael y profiadau hyn yn ystafelloedd aros ein hadrannau damweiniau ac achosion brys. Felly, er mwyn ein meddygon a'n nyrsys, sy'n gorfod gweithio drwy hyn, ac yn sicr er mwyn y cleifion, sy'n gorfod dioddef y cyflyrau hyn, tybed a allech chi amlinellu pa gynllun sydd gennych i fynd i'r afael â'r arosiadau gormodol hyn mewn adrannau damweiniau ac achosion brys?
Thanks very much. We've actually got a whole strategy around this. It's called the six goals programme. It's a very comprehensive programme, and it's made a huge difference already. So, I know it may not feel like that, but if you think about things like the 111 system, which meant that 90,000 people were diverted from potentially going to A&E in just one month, in February, that gives you a kind of idea of new initiatives that have been introduced. We also have urgent primary care centres that have been introduced; we have same-day emergency care centres that have also been introduced.
And of course, if you're talking about priorities, I've made it very clear that one of my key priorities is to get the waiting lists down. I spend a huge amount of work really trying to delve into the detail of where the problems are. I've spoken to Betsi just this morning about some of the really difficult issues that they're confronting in particular areas. Of course, part of the problem is these delayed transfers of care. We work very closely with local government to see if we can work together on that, because it is a joint responsibility. But there are too many people in our hospitals who are ready for discharge but who can't be discharged, and that's a challenge for us, but it's also a challenge for local government. And certainly, working hand in hand with councils is absolutely critical, and that's what we do, certainly through the winter months, on a fortnightly basis.
Diolch yn fawr. Mae gennym strategaeth gyfan yn ymwneud â hyn. Fe'i gelwir yn rhaglen chwe nod. Mae'n rhaglen gynhwysfawr iawn, ac mae wedi gwneud gwahaniaeth enfawr yn barod. Felly, rwy'n gwybod efallai na fydd yn teimlo felly, ond os ydych chi'n meddwl am bethau fel y system 111, a oedd yn golygu bod 90,000 o bobl wedi cael eu dargyfeirio rhag mynd i adrannau damweiniau ac achosion brys mewn un mis yn unig, ym mis Chwefror, mae hynny'n rhoi rhyw fath o syniad i chi o fentrau newydd sydd wedi'u cyflwyno. Hefyd, mae gennym ganolfannau gofal sylfaenol brys wedi'u cyflwyno; mae gennym ganolfannau gofal argyfwng yr un diwrnod wedi'u cyflwyno.
Ac wrth gwrs, os ydych chi'n sôn am flaenoriaethau, rwyf wedi'i gwneud hi'n glir iawn mai un o fy mlaenoriaethau allweddol yw lleihau'r rhestrau. Rwy'n gwneud llawer iawn o waith yn ceisio ymchwilio'n fanwl lle mae'r problemau. Rwyf wedi siarad â Betsi y bore yma am rai o'r materion anodd iawn y maent yn eu hwynebu mewn meysydd penodol. Wrth gwrs, rhan o'r broblem yw'r oedi wrth drosglwyddo gofal. Rydym yn gweithio'n agos iawn gyda llywodraeth leol i weld a allwn weithio gyda'n gilydd ar hynny, gan ei fod yn gyfrifoldeb ar y cyd. Ond mae yna ormod o bobl yn ein hysbytai sy'n barod i gael eu rhyddhau ond na ellir eu rhyddhau, ac mae hynny'n her i ni, ond mae hefyd yn her i lywodraeth leol. Ac yn sicr, mae gweithio law yn llaw â chynghorau'n gwbl hanfodol, a dyna a wnawn, yn sicr drwy fisoedd y gaeaf, ar sail bythefnosol.
I thank you, Cabinet Secretary, again for outlining the challenges there are at the backdoor of the hospital, as it were, in terms of those discharges. I'm certainly willing to work with you to see what approaches can be put together to see that improve. Because we all want to see a better A&E system here in Wales and those waiting lists and waiting times reduced.
But you referred to your plan, and there clearly has to be robust monitoring and oversight of the plan and the implementation of that plan. Our leader of the Conservatives here, Andrew R.T. Davies, recently submitted a question to you, asking what are the three leading causes of accident and emergency attendance in Wales this calendar year. Certainly, knowing those causes allows you to understand the robustness of the plan that you described having in place. But your answer, sadly, Cabinet Secretary, was that you do not hold this information. So, I just wonder if you can be confident in the robustness of your plan to deal with A&E waits when you don't hold what I see as pretty basic information about what are the leading causes of people attending accident and emergency waiting rooms.
Diolch i chi, Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet, am amlinellu'r heriau sydd i'w canfod wrth ddrws cefn yr ysbyty, fel petai, o ran y gallu i ryddhau cleifion. Rwy'n sicr yn barod i weithio gyda chi i weld pa ddulliau y gellir eu rhoi ar waith i wella hynny. Oherwydd rydym i gyd eisiau gweld system ddamweiniau ac achosion brys well yma yng Nghymru ac rydym i gyd eisiau gweld y rhestrau aros a'r amseroedd aros yn lleihau.
Ond fe wnaethoch chi gyfeirio at eich cynllun, ac mae'n amlwg fod yn rhaid monitro a goruchwylio'r cynllun a'i weithredu mewn modd cadarn. Cyflwynodd arweinydd y Ceidwadwyr yma, Andrew R.T. Davies, gwestiwn i chi yn ddiweddar, yn gofyn beth yw'r tri phrif reswm pam fod pobl wedi mynychu adrannau damweiniau ac achosion brys yng Nghymru yn ystod y flwyddyn galendr hon. Yn sicr, mae gwybod y rhesymau'n eich galluogi i ddeall cadernid y cynllun rydych wedi dweud ei fod ar waith. Ond yn eich ateb, yn anffodus, Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet, fe ddywedoch chi nad oedd gennych y wybodaeth hon. Felly, tybed a allwch chi fod yn hyderus ynghylch cadernid eich cynllun i ymdrin ag arosiadau mewn adrannau damweiniau ac achosion brys pan nad oes gennych chi'r hyn rwy'n ei ystyried yn wybodaeth eithaf sylfaenol am beth yw'r prif resymau pam fod pobl yn mynychu ystafelloedd aros adrannau damweiniau ac achosion brys.
Well, of course, I would expect the health boards themselves to be holding that information. But what we do have now is the NHS Wales Executive, which is really honing in on some of that detail. And the six goals programme that I referred to is an example of where there is a national approach, where there's an expectation of delivery on the local level. We've put £25 million into that, and it is making a significant difference.
So, obviously, one of the things that we've been involved with also is trying to roll out things like Professor Shepherd's programme of identifying violent behaviour, for example—where that's happening, how do we work with police and other authorities to identify where the problems are coming into emergency departments. It's not all violence; some of it is elderly people falling and tripping. It was very interesting last week to attend a conference that looks at the fracture liaison service. What do we do to intervene to stop people before they break a leg or they break a bone? There's a huge amount of evidence-based work that is going into that. We've put £1 million into that, to try and avoid people from going into hospital. So, it's all trying to push things into the prevention space, which is quite difficult when you've got the heat of the moment in ED really upon you, and those waiting lists.
Wel, wrth gwrs, byddwn yn disgwyl i'r byrddau iechyd eu hunain fod yn cadw'r wybodaeth honno. Ond yr hyn sydd gennym nawr yw Gweithrediaeth GIG Cymru, sy'n edrych yn agos iawn ar y manylder hwnnw. Ac mae'r rhaglen chwe nod y cyfeiriais ati yn enghraifft o ddull cenedlaethol, lle mae disgwyl cyflawni ar lefel leol. Rydym wedi dyrannu £25 miliwn i mewn i hwnnw, ac mae'n gwneud gwahaniaeth sylweddol.
Felly, yn amlwg, un o'r pethau eraill y buom yn ymwneud â nhw yw ceisio cyflwyno pethau fel rhaglen yr Athro Shepherd o adnabod ymddygiad treisgar, er enghraifft—lle mae hynny'n digwydd, sut rydym yn gweithio gyda'r heddlu ac awdurdodau eraill i nodi pan fo'r problemau'n dod i mewn i adrannau damweiniau ac achosion brys. Mae'n ymwneud â mwy na thrais yn unig; mae rhywfaint ohono'n ymwneud â phobl oedrannus yn baglu ac yn cwympo. Yr wythnos diwethaf, mynychais gynhadledd sy'n edrych ar y gwasanaeth cyswllt toresgyrn, a oedd yn ddiddorol iawn. Beth y gallwn ni ei wneud i ymyrryd i atal pobl rhag torri coes neu dorri asgwrn? Mae llawer iawn o waith sy'n seiliedig ar dystiolaeth yn mynd i mewn i hynny. Rydym wedi dyrannu £1 filiwn ar gyfer hynny, er mwyn ceisio atal pobl rhag gorfod mynd i'r ysbyty. Felly, mae'r cyfan yn ceisio gwthio pethau i'r gofod atal, sy'n eithaf anodd pan ydych yng nghanol gwres y funud gyda'r adrannau brys, a'r rhestrau aros.
Llefarydd Plaid Cymru, Sioned Williams.
Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Sioned Williams.
Diolch, Llywydd. Croeso i'ch rôl newydd chi, Weinidog. Hoffwn godi gyda chi y pryder mawr sydd yna am nifer y canolfannau dydd sy'n cau ledled Cymru. Mae'r canolfannau hyn wedi bod yn fwy nag adeiladau i gymaint o bobl sydd angen cefnogaeth yn y gymuned. Maen nhw'n ganolbwynt i fywydau pobl, yn cynnig pwynt cyswllt hollbwysig, yn cynnig gweithgareddau, cwmni, a chyfle i chwerthin, ac yn helpu lleddfu'r pwysau ar ofalwyr di-dâl. Mae Age Cymru wedi canfod bod nifer o awdurdodau lleol heb ailagor canolfannau ers y pandemig, er bod yr oedi cyn cael mynediad i wasanaethau gofal cymdeithasol wedi golygu bod angen y canolfannau hyn yn fwy nag erioed. Mae'r cyfyngiadau ar gyllidebau awdurdodau lleol yn golygu eu bod nhw'n torri gwasanaethau dydd, gydag o leiaf un awdurdod yng Nghymru yn awgrymu y byddan nhw'n cau pob canolfan, ac un arall yn dweud ei bod nhw'n mynd i haneru’r gyllideb ar gyfer rhoi seibiant i ofalwyr.
Yn sgil hyn, ydych chi'n cytuno bod angen mwy o ffocws, ac nid llai, ar ymyrraeth gynnar a gwaith ataliol a chefnogi yn y gymuned y mae gwasanaethau dydd yn rhan ganolog ohono? A pha ddata sy'n cael ei gasglu gan Lywodraeth Cymru i sicrhau bod y rhai sydd angen cefnogaeth yn y gymuned yn ei dderbyn, yn wyneb cau canolfannau dydd?
Thank you, Llywydd. Welcome to your new role, Minister. I'd like to raise with you the great concern that exists about the number of day centres closing across Wales. These centres have been more than just buildings for so many people who need support in the community. They have been at the heart of people's lives, offering a vital community contact point, offering activities, company, and a chance to laugh, and helping to ease the pressure on unpaid carers. Age Cymru has found that a number of local authorities have not reopened centres since the pandemic, even though the delays in accessing social care services has meant that the centres are needed more than ever. Restrictions on local authority budgets mean that they are cutting day services, with at least one local authority in Wales suggesting it will close all centres, and another saying that it will almost halve the budget for providing carers with respite.
As a result of this, do you agree that we need more of a focus, and not less of a focus, on early intervention and preventative work and support in the community, of which day services are a central part? And what data are being collected by the Government to ensure that those who need support in the community do receive it, in view of the closure of day centres?
Well, can I thank Sioned Williams for that question? And I very much look forward to working with you in your portfolio. I think I'm covering some aspects of it with Mabon as well, so I look forward very much to working with Mabon, because, I think, across my portfolio there are issues that are of common concern to all of us, and I hope we can work collaboratively together, not just with Plaid Cymru, but also with the Conservatives. We have many programme for government commitments and co-operation agreement commitments across the portfolio, particularly in relation to improved outcomes for children, which I know is a particular interest of yours, so I'm very much looking forward to that.
But the points that you make are obviously very important. The operation of day centres, of course, is a matter for local authorities, and we know, absolutely, that local authorities' finances have been under tremendous pressure, despite the fact that we have tried to prioritise their funding, along with funding for the NHS, within the budget constraints that we have. All of local authorities' budgets, as you know, are within the rates support grant, so they're not ring-fenced for any particular service. So, it is a matter for the local authority themselves—they're unhypothecated—whether they choose to prioritise social care and so on.
But I can be very clear that both the Cabinet Secretary for health and I have an absolute priority around the issue of delayed transfers of care, and I think that ties in very much with your question. You will have seen, for instance, over the weekend, last week, in the area that I represent—the Cwm Taf health area—Cwm Taf health board made it very clear to Rhondda Cynon Taf local authority that there were some 300 people in hospitals in the Cwm Taf area—that's the equivalent of a single general hospital—occupying beds who shouldn't have been there. And we know that that is an issue that has been going on for far too long. I met with the Welsh Local Government Association well-being and social care leads just last week, and talked about the need for us to press forward on this agenda of reducing the waits for people that are no longer required to be in hospital to come out. And day-care centres and social care provision are absolutely key to that.
So, all I can say to you is that I am having those conversations with local authorities. It is very much a priority that both the Cabinet Secretary for health and I have in terms of moving forward on the pathways for care, and we are continuing to have as constructive a dialogue as we can with local authorities about how, within the constraints of their budgets, and the constraints of our budget, we can both meet those joint objectives.
Wel, a gaf i ddiolch i Sioned Williams am y cwestiwn hwnnw? Edrychaf ymlaen yn fawr at weithio gyda chi yn eich portffolio. Rwy'n credu fy mod i'n ymdrin â rhai agweddau arno gyda Mabon hefyd, felly rwy'n edrych ymlaen yn fawr at weithio gyda Mabon, oherwydd, rwy'n credu bod yna faterion ar draws fy mhortffolio sy'n peri pryder cyffredin i bob un ohonom, ac rwy'n gobeithio y gallwn weithio gyda'n gilydd, nid yn unig gyda Phlaid Cymru, ond hefyd gyda'r Ceidwadwyr. Mae gennym lawer o ymrwymiadau rhaglen lywodraethu ac ymrwymiadau'r cytundeb cydweithio ar draws y portffolio, yn enwedig mewn perthynas â gwell canlyniadau i blant, y gwn eu bod o ddiddordeb arbennig i chi, felly rwy'n edrych ymlaen yn fawr at hynny.
Ond mae'r pwyntiau a wnewch yn amlwg yn bwysig iawn. Mater i awdurdodau lleol yw gweithrediad canolfannau dydd wrth gwrs, ac fe wyddom, yn sicr, fod cyllid awdurdodau lleol wedi bod dan bwysau aruthrol, er ein bod wedi ceisio blaenoriaethu eu cyllid, ynghyd â chyllid i'r GIG, o fewn y cyfyngiadau cyllidebol sy'n ein hwynebu. Mae holl gyllidebau awdurdodau lleol, fel y gwyddoch, o fewn y grant cynnal ardrethi, felly nid ydynt wedi'u neilltuo ar gyfer unrhyw wasanaeth penodol. Felly, mater i'r awdurdod lleol eu hunain—nid ydynt wedi cael eu neilltuo—yw penderfynu a ydynt yn dewis blaenoriaethu gofal cymdeithasol ac yn y blaen.
Ond gallaf fod yn glir iawn fod Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet dros iechyd a minnau yn sicr yn blaenoriaethu oedi wrth drosglwyddo gofal, ac rwy'n credu bod hynny'n cyd-fynd â'ch cwestiwn. Byddwch wedi gweld, er enghraifft, dros y penwythnos, yr wythnos diwethaf, yn yr ardal rwy'n ei chynrychioli—ardal bwrdd iechyd Cwm Taf—mae bwrdd iechyd Cwm Taf wedi'i gwneud yn glir iawn i awdurdod lleol Rhondda Cynon Taf fod tua 300 o bobl mewn gwelyau mewn ysbytai yn ardal Cwm Taf—mae hynny'n cyfateb i un ysbyty cyffredinol—na ddylent fod yno. Ac fe wyddom fod hon yn broblem ers llawer gormod o amser. Cyfarfûm ag arweinwyr llesiant a gofal cymdeithasol Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru yr wythnos diwethaf, a soniais am yr angen i ni fwrw ymlaen â'r agenda hon o leihau'r amseroedd aros i ryddhau pobl nad oes angen iddynt fod yn yr ysbyty mwyach. Ac mae canolfannau gofal dydd a darpariaeth gofal cymdeithasol yn gwbl allweddol i hynny.
Felly, y cyfan y gallaf ei ddweud wrthych yw fy mod yn cael y sgyrsiau hynny gydag awdurdodau lleol. Mae'n sicr yn flaenoriaeth yr wyf fi ac Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet dros iechyd yn ei rhannu wrth symud ymlaen ar y llwybrau gofal, ac rydym yn parhau i gael deialog mor adeiladol ag y gallwn gydag awdurdodau lleol ynglŷn â sut y gallwn gyflawni'r amcanion hynny ar y cyd o fewn cyfyngiadau eu cyllidebau nhw, a chyfyngiadau ein cyllideb ni.
Diolch yn fawr. Ie, y pwynt yw bod y gwasanaethau dydd yna yn chwarae rhan mor bwysig yn y gwaith ataliol yna rhag bod pobl yn gorfod cael mynediad at wasanaethau iechyd a gofal yn y lle cyntaf, a lleddfu'r pwysau. Mae nifer o bobl wedi gofyn i Age Cymru am gymorth yn sgil y ffaith nad ydyn nhw wedi cael gwybod o flaen llaw y byddai'n rhaid iddyn nhw dalu am ofal cymdeithasol. Maen nhw wedi tynnu sylw at achosion lle mae pobl hŷn wedi gorfod talu yn sylweddol yn fwy na'r hyn mae'r ddeddfwriaeth yn caniatáu. Ac, yn eu harolwg blynyddol, dywedodd 34 y cant eu bod yn ei ffeindio fe'n anodd neu'n hynod anodd i ddeall trefniadau codi tâl am ofal. Gan fod y drefn taliadau wedi bod mewn lle ers peth amser, pa waith sy'n cael ei wneud i sicrhau bod y broses yn glir ac yn deg? Ac, wrth gwrs, mae'r Llywodraeth yn ymgynghori ar hyn o bryd ar ddiwygio'r rheoliadau a'r cod ymarfer sy'n rheoli'r hyn mae awdurdodau lleol yn gallu ei godi, ac, yn benodol, ar godi'r uchafswm wythnosol nawr i £120—rhywbeth y gwnaeth y Llywodraeth addo peidio â gwneud, wrth gwrs.
Nawr eich bod chi yn y portffolio yma, a ydych chi'n credu, Weinidog, ei bod hi'n deg gofyn i ofalwyr a phobl hŷn, a phobl anabl, rhai sydd yn teimlo'r pwysau ariannol ac emosiynol fwyaf yn ein cymdeithas, i dalu mwy am eu gofal, o ystyried nad yw hyn, yn ei gyfanrwydd, yn swm anferthol o arian i'r Llywodraeth ei ganfod?
Thank you very much. Yes, the point is that those day centres do play such an important role in that preventative work to prevent people from having to access health and care services in the first place, and ameliorate that pressure. A number of people have asked Age Cymru for support due to the fact that they have not been informed in advance that they would have to pay for social care. They have also cited cases where elderly people have had to pay significantly more than what the legislation allows for. And, in their annual engagement survey, 34 per cent said that they find it difficult or extremely difficult to understand the payment arrangements for care. Given that the payment system has been in place for some time, what work is being done to ensure that the process is clear and fair? And, of course, the Government is currently consulting on amending the regulations and the code of practice that govern what local authorities can charge, and, specifically, on raising the weekly maximum to £120. This is something that the Government promised not to do, of course.
Now that you have this portfolio, do you believe, Cabinet Secretary, that it is fair to ask carers and older people, and disabled people, those who feel the greatest financial and emotional pressure in our society, to pay more for their care, considering that this, in its entirety, is not a huge amount of money for the Government to find?
I thank you for that further question, which I think, again, is very important when we're looking at the whole way in which social care is currently delivered. Again, in co-operation with Plaid Cymru, we are moving towards a national care service in due course. It's a 10-year programme, and it may take us some time to get there. But we have a shared objective around that and in making sure that that provision is available for the very people that you've just been talking about. I would want to be very sure that people do understand very clearly what they have to pay for and what they don't have to pay for. And, if I can find that that is not happening, I would certainly want to have that conversation with officials to make sure that local authorities are producing very, very clear and understandable guidance. I know, from my own experience—
Diolch i chi am y cwestiwn pellach hwnnw, sy'n bwysig iawn unwaith eto wrth edrych ar y ffordd y mae gofal cymdeithasol yn cael ei ddarparu ar hyn o bryd. Unwaith eto, mewn cydweithrediad â Phlaid Cymru, rydym yn symud tuag at wasanaeth gofal cenedlaethol maes o law. Mae'n rhaglen 10 mlynedd, ac efallai y bydd yn cymryd peth amser i ni ei chyflawni. Ond mae gennym amcan a rennir yn hynny o beth ac wrth sicrhau bod y ddarpariaeth honno ar gael i'r union bobl yr ydych newydd sôn amdanynt. Byddwn eisiau bod yn sicr fod pobl yn deall yn glir iawn beth mae'n rhaid iddynt dalu amdano a'r hyn nad oes rhaid iddynt dalu amdano. Ac os gwelaf nad yw hynny'n digwydd, byddwn yn sicr eisiau cael y sgwrs honno gyda swyddogion i sicrhau bod awdurdodau lleol yn cynhyrchu canllawiau clir a dealladwy iawn. Rwy'n gwybod, o fy mhrofiad fy hun—
[Inaudible.]
[Anghlywadwy.]
—yes, absolutely, absolutely. I absolutely know, Sioned, from my own experience, when my father was going through the system before he died. And this is somebody like me, who probably does have an idea of how the system works. And I really struggled to try to get to speak to the right people, at the right time, with the right information, being passed from pillar to post, and that is extremely stressful for individuals and their families. So, we do need to make the system more transparent. We need to ensure that absolutely—you're right—that the staff themselves have all the information that they need, and, if that is not happening, I would want to make sure that it is, that it becomes clearer and is a simpler and more unified process for people to navigate.
On the consultation around domiciliary care in particular, that hasn't closed yet; that's going on through until May. This is something very much that local authorities have been asking for. I tend to agree with your analysis that what is being suggested, in terms of the lifting of the cap, is not a huge amount of money, but it is something that local authorities are saying that they need. But there is very robust process within that, which does ensure that people that can't afford to pay more than the current maximum level shouldn't pay. Now, I would want to ensure that, absolutely, that stays, and if that means that we have to review those rules to make sure that nobody falls through the gaps, then I'm absolutely clear that we should do that, because nobody should be denied care because they can't afford it.
—ie, yn hollol. Rwy'n gwybod yn iawn, Sioned, o fy mhrofiad fy hun, pan oedd fy nhad yn mynd drwy'r system cyn iddo farw. A rhywun fel fi yw hyn, sydd â syniad o sut mae'r system yn gweithio, mae'n debyg. Ac roeddwn i'n ei chael hi'n anodd iawn siarad â'r bobl gywir, ar yr adeg gywir, gyda'r wybodaeth gywir, yn cael fy nhrosglwyddo o bant i bentan, ac mae hynny'n straen fawr ar unigolion a'u teuluoedd. Felly, mae angen inni wneud y system yn fwy tryloyw. Mae angen inni sicrhau—rydych chi'n iawn—fod gan y staff eu hunain yr holl wybodaeth y maent ei hangen, ac os nad yw hynny'n digwydd, byddwn eisiau sicrhau bod hynny'n digwydd, a sicrhau bod y broses yn dod yn gliriach ac yn symlach ac yn fwy unedig i bobl ei llywio.
Ar yr ymgynghoriad ar ofal cartref yn benodol, nid yw hwnnw wedi cau eto; mae'n parhau tan fis Mai. Mae hwn yn rhywbeth y mae awdurdodau lleol wedi bod yn gofyn amdano. Rwy'n tueddu i gytuno â'ch dadansoddiad nad yw'r hyn sy'n cael ei awgrymu, o ran codi'r cap, yn swm enfawr o arian, ond mae awdurdodau lleol yn dweud eu bod ei angen. Ond mae yna broses gadarn iawn o fewn hynny, sy'n sicrhau na ddylai pobl na allant fforddio talu mwy na'r lefel uchaf bresennol orfod talu. Nawr, hoffwn sicrhau, yn sicr, fod hynny'n aros, ac os yw hynny'n golygu bod yn rhaid inni adolygu'r rheolau hynny i sicrhau nad oes neb yn syrthio drwy'r bylchau, rwy'n gwbl sicr y dylem wneud hynny, oherwydd ni ddylid gwrthod gofal i unrhyw un am na allant ei fforddio.
3. A wnaiff yr Ysgrifennydd Cabinet ddatganiad am gynnydd Llywodraeth Cymru wrth fynd i'r afael â rhestrau aros y GIG? OQ61025
3. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on the Welsh Government's progress in tackling NHS waiting lists? OQ61025
Latest figures show six of seven health boards have hit the target to ensure 97 per cent of all waits are less than 104 weeks. The number of pathways waiting for more than two years fell again for the twenty-third month in a row. The average waiting time is now around 21 weeks.
Mae'r ffigurau diweddaraf yn dangos bod chwech o saith bwrdd iechyd wedi cyrraedd y targed i sicrhau bod 97 y cant o'r holl arosiadau yn llai na 104 wythnos. Mae nifer y llwybrau sy'n aros am fwy na dwy flynedd wedi gostwng eto am y trydydd mis ar hugain yn olynol. Mae'r amser aros cyfartalog oddeutu 21 wythnos erbyn hyn.
Thank you for your response, Cabinet Secretary. I recently spoke with Together for Short Lives and Tŷ Hafan about the critical support they provide to children with life-changing illnesses, as well as their families. This care is predominantly centred around palliative care and provides invaluable respite and support for families at some of the most difficult moments imaginable. Tŷ Hafan and Together for Short Lives have outlined their need for further funding to cater for a much needed boost in the number of community children nurses, and have previously called for funding to cover 21 per cent of their costs, despite only currently receiving between 5 per cent and 10 per cent from the Welsh Government to cover this critical service. This is understandably impacting the number of patients these organisations are able to reach. At the moment, the figure stands at one in 10 children in Wales who are getting the critical care that they and their families so desperately need and want. So, Cabinet Secretary, as I'm sure you can appreciate, this has a knock-on effect on our NHS, meaning that nine out of 10 of these children are, therefore, going to be put on a waiting list. So, with this in mind, Cabinet Secretary, what plans do you have to improve access to care in the community for critically ill children across Wales, which will in tandem alleviate this pressure on our NHS waiting lists? Thank you.
Diolch am eich ymateb, Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet. Yn ddiweddar, siaradais â Together for Short Lives a Tŷ Hafan am y gefnogaeth hanfodol y maent yn ei darparu i blant sydd â salwch sy'n newid bywyd, yn ogystal â'u teuluoedd. Mae'r gofal hwn yn canolbwyntio'n bennaf ar ofal lliniarol ac mae'n darparu seibiant a chymorth amhrisiadwy i deuluoedd ar rai o'r adegau anoddaf posibl. Mae Tŷ Hafan a Together for Short Lives wedi amlinellu eu hangen am gyllid pellach i ddarparu ar gyfer hwb mawr ei angen yn nifer y nyrsys plant cymunedol, ac maent wedi galw o'r blaen am gyllid i dalu am 21 y cant o'u costau, er mai dim ond rhwng 5 y cant a 10 y cant y maent yn ei gael gan Lywodraeth Cymru ar hyn o bryd i dalu am y gwasanaeth hanfodol hwn. Mae hyn yn ddealladwy yn effeithio ar nifer y cleifion y gall y sefydliadau hyn eu cyrraedd. Ar hyn o bryd, un o bob 10 plentyn yng Nghymru sy'n cael y gofal critigol y maent hwy a'u teuluoedd ei angen a'i eisiau'n daer. Felly, Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet, fel y gallwch ddeall, mae hyn yn cael effaith ganlyniadol ar ein GIG, sy'n golygu y bydd naw o bob deg o'r plant hyn felly yn cael eu rhoi ar restr aros. Felly, gyda hyn mewn golwg, Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet, pa gynlluniau sydd gennych i wella mynediad at ofal yn y gymuned i blant sy'n ddifrifol wael ledled Cymru, a fydd hefyd yn lleddfu'r pwysau ar restrau aros y GIG? Diolch.
Thanks very much, Natasha, and you're quite right that it's probably the most difficult area of all and an area that I'm absolutely committed to addressing. That's why, in the past month, I have given an extra £4 million to hospices in Wales. Let's not forget that, in hospices, the vast majority of the work is done in the community. Certainly, on a visit to St David's Hospice with my colleague Jayne Bryant a few months ago, it really came home to me how much of that work is done in the community. We recognised that, whilst many of the experts who work in this field—and you can imagine the kind of expertise you need in that role, and you've got to be a pretty robust person to be able to work in that very, very challenging space—. One of the challenges was that, actually, we'd given a pay rise to those working in the NHS, but we hadn't given a commensurate pay rise to those working in hospices. So, we hope that the £4 million will go some way towards addressing that issue. I met with those hospices a couple of weeks ago, and I know they were very grateful for that additional funding.
Diolch yn fawr, Natasha, ac rydych chi'n hollol iawn mai hwn, mwy na thebyg, yw'r maes anoddaf ohonynt i gyd ac rwyf wedi ymrwymo'n llwyr i fynd i'r afael ag ef. Dyna pam, yn ystod y mis diwethaf, rwyf wedi rhoi £4 miliwn ychwanegol i hosbisau yng Nghymru. Gadewch inni beidio ag anghofio, mewn hosbisau, fod y rhan fwyaf o'r gwaith yn cael ei wneud yn y gymuned. Yn sicr, ar ymweliad â Hosbis Dewi Sant gyda fy nghyd-Aelod Jayne Bryant ychydig fisoedd yn ôl, sylweddolais faint o'r gwaith hwnnw sy'n cael ei wneud yn y gymuned. Fe wnaethom ni gydnabod, er bod llawer o'r arbenigwyr sy'n gweithio yn y maes hwn—a gallwch ddychmygu'r math o arbenigedd sydd ei angen arnoch yn y rôl honno, ac mae'n rhaid ichi fod yn berson eithaf cadarn i allu gweithio yn y maes hynod heriol hwnnw—. Un o'r heriau oedd ein bod, mewn gwirionedd, wedi rhoi codiad cyflog i'r rhai sy'n gweithio yn y GIG, ond nid oeddem wedi rhoi codiad cyflog cymesur i'r rhai sy'n gweithio mewn hosbisau. Felly, rydym yn gobeithio y bydd y £4 miliwn yn mynd rywfaint o'r ffordd tuag at fynd i'r afael â hynny. Cyfarfûm â'r hosbisau hynny ychydig wythnosau'n ôl, a gwn eu bod yn ddiolchgar iawn am y cyllid ychwanegol hwnnw.
The Cabinet Secretary said in an interview with the PA news agency recently,
'What we’ve been trying to do is to concentrate on the longest waiters.'
Should she be concentrating on the longest waiters or, in fact, should she be concentrating on those in greatest need?
Dywedodd Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet mewn cyfweliad gydag asiantaeth newyddion PA yn ddiweddar,
'Yr hyn y buom yn ceisio ei wneud yw canolbwyntio ar y rhai sydd wedi bod yn aros hiraf.'
A ddylai fod yn canolbwyntio ar y rhai sydd wedi bod yn aros hiraf neu a ddylai fod yn canolbwyntio ar y rhai sydd â'r angen mwyaf?
Thanks very much. The fact is, we've been—. If you look at the overall numbers who need support, we are talking about hundreds of thousands of people. So, how do you prioritise those? You're absolutely right—we have to look at the most urgent cases. The question for me is, if you balance off and if you look at the experts who say what percentage, more or less, are in the urgent bracket, most health boards are categorising far too many as urgent cases, which means that those people who are waiting longest, sometimes with quite complex cases, are put on 'never' lists, and that is not an acceptable situation, which is why one of the things I've been doing is spending a huge amount of time really chasing down those people who've been on very long waiting lists, unacceptably long, waiting in pain. Of course, urgent cases always go to the front of the queue, but there are too many of them jumping the queue at the expense of those people who've been on the waiting lists for a very, very long time.
Diolch yn fawr. Y gwir amdani yw, rydym wedi bod—. Os edrychwch chi ar y niferoedd cyffredinol sydd angen cefnogaeth, rydym yn siarad am gannoedd o filoedd o bobl. Felly, sut rydych chi'n blaenoriaethu'r rheini? Rydych chi'n hollol iawn—mae'n rhaid inni edrych ar yr achosion mwyaf difrifol. Y cwestiwn i mi yw, os ydych chi'n ceisio cydbwyso ac os edrychwch chi ar yr arbenigwyr sy'n dweud pa ganran, fwy neu lai, sydd yn y categori brys, mae'r rhan fwyaf o fyrddau iechyd yn categoreiddio llawer gormod fel achosion brys, sy'n golygu bod y bobl sy'n aros am yr amser hiraf, gydag achosion eithaf cymhleth weithiau, yn cael eu rhoi ar restrau 'byth', ac nid yw honno'n sefyllfa dderbyniol, a dyna pam mai un o'r pethau y bûm yn eu gwneud yw treulio llawer iawn o amser yn mynd ar drywydd y bobl sydd wedi bod ar restrau aros hir iawn, annerbyniol o hir, yn aros mewn poen. Wrth gwrs, mae achosion brys bob amser yn mynd i flaen y ciw, ond mae gormod ohonynt yn neidio'r ciw ar draul y bobl sydd wedi bod ar y rhestrau aros am amser hir iawn.
4. Pa waith cynllunio gweithlu, hyfforddiant, a datblygu y mae Llywodraeth Cymru wedi'i wneud ar gyfer deintyddiaeth yng Nghanolbarth a Gorllewin Cymru? OQ61018
4. What workforce, training, and development planning has the Welsh Government undertaken for dentistry in Mid and West Wales? OQ61018
Byrddau iechyd unigol sy'n gyfrifol am gynllunio'r gweithlu, ar sail anghenion a gofynion penodol eu poblogaeth. Maen nhw’n gwneud hyn drwy eu cynlluniau tymor canolig integredig, sy’n cael eu cyflwyno i Addysg a Gwella Iechyd Cymru. Mae’r cynlluniau hyn yn llywio cynllun comisiynu addysg a hyfforddiant Cymru.
Workforce planning is the responsibility of individual health boards, based on the specific needs and requirements of their population. This is done via their integrated medium-term plans, which are submitted to Health Education and Improvement Wales. These plans inform the education and training commissioning plan for Wales.
Diolch yn fawr iawn. Fel rydyn ni wedi clywed nifer o weithiau yn y Siambr yn barod heddiw, mae yna brinder deintyddion, prinder deintyddion sy'n siarad Cymraeg, yn ein canolbarth ni'n dau ac yn ehangach hefyd. Dwi'n falch o glywed bod gosod cyfundrefn hyfforddiant briodol yn hollbwysig er mwyn sicrhau'r genhedlaeth nesaf o ddeintyddion. Felly, fe wnes i synnu wrth glywed yn ddiweddar iawn am ferch ifanc o Geredigion oedd wedi cael ei gwrthod a ddim wedi cael ei derbyn ar gwrs deintyddiaeth yng Nghaerdydd, a ddim hyd yn oed wedi cael cynnig cyfweliad. Roedd disgwyl iddi gyrraedd y graddau disgwyliedig i fynd mewn i'r ysgol ddeintyddiaeth. Erbyn hyn, mae hi bellach yn ystyried astudio y tu fas i Gymru. Dyw'r stori hon ddim yn newydd. Nôl yn 2019, dangosodd adroddiad ar ddeintyddiaeth yng Nghymru gan y pwyllgor iechyd yn y Senedd yma fod angen system recriwtio mwy effeithiol i sicrhau cynnydd yng nghyfraddau myfyrwyr o Gymru sydd yn astudio deintyddiaeth—y rhai sydd yn dod o Gymru. Felly, gan ystyried profiad yr etholwraig dwi wedi cyfeirio ati, gaf i ofyn beth mae'r Llywodraeth yn bwriadu gwneud er mwyn mynd i'r afael â'r argymhelliad penodol yna, a sut fedrwch chi fynd ati i sicrhau bod cenhedlaeth newydd o ddeintyddion y dyfodol yn hanu o Gymru, gan gynnwys rhai sy'n siarad Cymraeg?
Thank you very much. As we've heard on a number of occasions in the Chamber this afternoon, there is a shortage of dentists, a shortage of Welsh-speaking dentists, in mid and west Wales and more broadly too. I'm pleased to hear that putting the appropriate training resource in place is crucial to ensure the next generation of dentists. So, I was surprised to hear recently about a young woman from Ceredigion who had been denied a place on a dentistry course in Cardiff, and hadn't even been offered an interview. She was expected to meet the grades to enter the school of dentistry. She is now considering studying outside of Wales. This is not a new story. Back in 2019, a report on dentistry in Wales by the Senedd's health committee highlighted the need for a more effective recruitment system to ensure an increase in the rates of students from Wales studying dentistry—those coming from Wales. So, given the experiences of the constituent to whom I've referred, can I ask what the Government is intending to do in order to tackle that particular recommendation, and how can you ensure that a new generation of dentists for the future comes from Wales and includes Welsh speakers?
Diolch yn fawr. Rŷch chi'n iawn—dwi'n meddwl bod problem wedi bod yn y maes yma. Mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn ariannu tu 74 lle yn ysgol deintyddiaeth Caerdydd, ac mae ceisiadau a llefydd wedi cynyddu 23 y cant ers 2023. Ond mae wirioneddol yn siomedig faint o fyfyrwyr o Gymru sy'n cael lle ar y cwrs. Mae'r ysgol feddygaeth wedi gwneud camau anhygoel i wella'r sefyllfa, ac rŷch chi wedi gweld gwahaniaeth yn y niferoedd sy'n dod o Gymru.
Nawr, dwi'n gwybod bod yr ysgol deintyddiaeth yn rhoi cyfweliadau i bob ymgeisydd o Gymru sy'n cwrdd â gofynion academaidd a safonau'r cwrs, ond hefyd y rhai sydd wedi cymryd rhan yng nghyrsiau ehangu cyfranogiad a sawl cwrs arall. Ond y ffaith yw efallai fod hwnna'n anodd i rywun sydd yn y gorllewin, i gael mynediad at y cyrsiau hynny. Felly, rŷn ni wedi gwneud hwn yn glir nawr—ces i gyfarfod yn ddiweddar gyda'r ysgol deintyddiaeth ar ôl i mi gael sgwrs gyda'r Gweinidog sy'n gyfrifol am Gymraeg, achos dwi yn meddwl bod hyn yn broblem. Dwi'n falch dros ben eu bod nhw wedi cydnabod bod yna broblem yma, ac maen nhw wedi gwneud ymrwymiad i gynyddu'r niferoedd i tua 40 y cant o fyfyrwyr ar y cwrs yn ystod y tair blynedd nesaf. Os yw hwnna'n digwydd, bydd hwnna'n chwyldro, ac felly, yn amlwg, mae'n rhaid i ni gadw golwg ar hynny.
Dwi wedi cytuno i fynd i gwrs maen nhw'n ei gynnal yn ysgol Glantaf, lle maen nhw'n dod â lot o blant o ysgolion gwahanol sy'n medru'r Gymraeg sydd â diddordeb i fynd i mewn i feddygaeth a deintyddiaeth jest i wneud yn siŵr eu bod nhw'n deall bod yna lwybr yma iddyn nhw. Ac, wrth gwrs, rŷch chi'n ymwybodol hefyd fod yna grant ychwanegol o £7,000 i annog pobl sydd ar y cwrs yna i wneud eu hyfforddiant nhw yng nghefn gwlad Nghymru.
Thank you very much. You are quite right—I think there has been a problem in this area. The Welsh Government is funding around 74 places in the Cardiff school of dentistry, but applications and places have increased 23 per cent since 2023. But it is truly disappointing how many students from Wales are given places on the course. The school of dentistry has taken huge steps to improve the situation, and you will have seen a difference in the numbers coming from Wales.
Now, I know that the school of dentistry is giving interviews to all Welsh applicants who meet the academic requirements and the standards of the course, but also those who have participated in enhancing participation courses and a number of other courses. But the fact is that that might be difficult for someone in west Wales, to actually access those courses. So, we have made this clear now—and I did have a recent meeting with the school of dentistry, having had a conversation with the Minister responsible for the Welsh language, because I do think that this is a problem. I am delighted that they have acknowledged that there is a problem here, and they have made a commitment to increase the numbers to around 40 per cent of students on the course over the next three years. Now, if that happens, then that is transformative, and, clearly, we need to keep an eye on that.
I have agreed to attend a course at ysgol Glantaf, where they bring a number of pupils from different schools who are Welsh speakers and are interested in going into medicine and dentistry just to ensure that they understand that there is a pathway for them here. Of course, you'll also be aware that there is an additional grant of £7,000 to encourage people on that course to undertake their training in rural Wales.
Minister, I think the position of accessing NHS dentists was pretty dire 12 months ago, and I’ve heard what you’ve said today in response to other questions, but the position is even more dire today. Just this week, I had a constituent in Welshpool unable to access an NHS dentist. They are four NHS dentists short in Welshpool. In Newtown, the largest town in my constituency, the last full-time NHS dentist moved away over the border to England last week. There is now no full-time dentist in Newtown, the largest town in my constituency, at all. So, the position is pretty dire.
Now, I’ve heard some of the exchanges today in this Chamber, and my concern is you continue to get questions from Senedd Members across all parties here about the position, but what is going to happen? What can be done? Now, I’ve heard your response to Janet Finch-Saunders’s question today, and I welcome the financial grant that’s available in order to persuade people to be recruited, and that rural offer. I welcome that, but, as you said yourself—and I agree with you—you can’t just conjure up new dentists overnight. So, in addition to that, I think there are two other things that need to be done. We need to re-examine the NHS contract, because it’s clearly not working. If it was working, we wouldn’t be in the position that we’re in. We need to stop dentists moving from NHS to private and moving over the border. And we also need an offer to attract experienced dentists to come and place themselves in Wales, particularly rural Wales as well—so, experienced dentists working elsewhere in the UK, and there needs to be a financial incentive for that. But, ultimately, when do you think that my constituents, people living in towns like Newtown and Welshpool, will be able to access an NHS dentist in the town where they live?
Weinidog, rwy'n credu bod y sefyllfa o ran mynediad at ddeintyddion y GIG yn eithaf enbyd 12 mis yn ôl, ac rwyf wedi clywed yr hyn rydych chi wedi'i ddweud heddiw mewn ymateb i gwestiynau eraill, ond mae'r sefyllfa hyd yn oed yn fwy enbyd heddiw. Yr wythnos hon, roedd gennyf etholwr yn y Trallwng yn methu cael mynediad at ddeintydd y GIG. Maent bedwar deintydd GIG yn fyr yn y Trallwng. Yn y Drenewydd, y dref fwyaf yn fy etholaeth i, symudodd deintydd amser llawn olaf y GIG dros y ffin i Loegr yr wythnos diwethaf. Erbyn hyn, nid oes unrhyw ddeintydd amser llawn yn y Drenewydd, y dref fwyaf yn fy etholaeth. Felly, mae'r sefyllfa'n enbyd.
Nawr, rwyf wedi clywed rhai o'r pethau a ddywedwyd heddiw yn y Siambr, a fy mhryder i yw eich bod yn parhau i gael cwestiynau gan Aelodau'r Senedd o bob plaid yma am y sefyllfa, ond beth sy'n mynd i ddigwydd? Beth y gellir ei wneud? Nawr, rwyf wedi clywed eich ymateb i gwestiwn Janet Finch-Saunders heddiw, ac rwy'n croesawu'r grant ariannol sydd ar gael er mwyn perswadio pobl i gael eu recriwtio, a'r cynnig gwledig. Rwy'n croesawu hynny, ond fel y dywedoch chi'ch hun—ac rwy'n cytuno â chi—ni allwch gonsurio deintyddion newydd dros nos. Felly, yn ogystal â hynny, rwy'n credu bod dau beth arall y mae angen eu gwneud. Mae angen inni ailedrych ar gontract y GIG, oherwydd mae'n amlwg nad yw'n gweithio. Pe bai'n gweithio, ni fyddem yn y sefyllfa yr ydym ynddi. Mae angen inni atal deintyddion rhag symud o'r GIG i'r sector preifat a symud dros y ffin. Ac rydym hefyd angen cynnig i ddenu deintyddion profiadol i ddod i Gymru, yn enwedig y Gymru wledig hefyd—felly, deintyddion profiadol sy'n gweithio mewn mannau eraill yn y DU, ac mae angen cymhelliant ariannol ar gyfer hynny. Ond yn y pen draw, pryd rydych chi'n meddwl y bydd fy etholwyr, pobl sy'n byw mewn trefi fel y Drenewydd a'r Trallwng, yn gallu cael mynediad at ddeintydd y GIG yn y dref lle maent yn byw?
Thanks very much. As you know, we've done a huge amount of work to try and already change the contract. It's very interesting that England is looking at changing the model that they've got because they recognise that something has to be done there. So, we do have those 300,000 new NHS appointments that have been delivered. We are actually in the middle of negotiating a new contract with NHS dentists. It's very difficult because, actually, they have a choice—they can go and practise privately, and we simply don't have the money, very often, to compete. They do get lots more security if they work in the NHS, and they get pensions and lots of other benefits, but they have to balance that off against what they can get in the private sector. So, it is very difficult, at a time of tight financial constraints, for us to do that. And, of course, it's much more expensive to get your NHS treatment done in England compared to Wales, although we've had to put up prices recently. And, of course, today they've announced that there's going to be a £9.90 charge for any prescription in England. Of course, that is free for people in Wales, and I’m pleased that that is the case.
Diolch yn fawr. Fel y gwyddoch, rydym wedi gwneud llawer iawn o waith i geisio newid y contract yn barod. Mae'n ddiddorol iawn fod Lloegr yn edrych ar newid y model sydd ganddynt oherwydd eu bod yn cydnabod bod rhaid gwneud rhywbeth yno. Felly, mae gennym y 300,000 o apwyntiadau GIG newydd wedi'u cyflawni. Rydym yn y broses o drafod contract newydd gyda deintyddion y GIG. Mae'n anodd iawn oherwydd, mewn gwirionedd, mae ganddynt ddewis—gallant fynd i weithio yn y sector preifat, ac yn aml iawn, nid oes gennym ni'r arian i gystadlu. Maent yn cael llawer mwy o ddiogelwch os ydynt yn gweithio yn y GIG, ac maent yn cael pensiynau a llawer o fudd-daliadau eraill, ond mae'n rhaid iddynt gydbwyso hynny yn erbyn yr hyn y gallant ei gael yn y sector preifat. Felly, mae'n anodd iawn i ni wneud hynny, ar adeg o gyfyngiadau ariannol tynn. Ac wrth gwrs, mae'n llawer mwy costus i rywun gael eu trin gan y GIG yn Lloegr o'i gymharu â Chymru, er ein bod wedi gorfod codi prisiau yn ddiweddar. Ac wrth gwrs, maent wedi cyhoeddi heddiw y bydd tâl o £9.90 am unrhyw bresgripsiwn yn Lloegr. Wrth gwrs, mae hynny'n rhad ac am ddim i bobl yng Nghymru, ac rwy'n falch o hynny.
5. Beth yw strategaeth Llywodraeth Cymru ar gyfer gwella'r ddarpariaeth gofal iechyd yng Ngorllewin De Cymru? OQ61026
5. What is the Welsh Government's strategy for improving healthcare provision in South Wales West? OQ61026
We recognise the need to improve healthcare provision throughout Wales, and are working with health boards to achieve this through 'A Healthier Wales', our 10-year plan for health and care.
Rydym yn cydnabod yr angen i wella darpariaeth gofal iechyd ledled Cymru, ac rydym yn gweithio gyda byrddau iechyd i gyflawni hyn drwy 'Cymru Iachach', ein cynllun 10 mlynedd ar gyfer iechyd a gofal.
Diolch yn fawr. Cabinet Secretary, earlier this month Morriston Hospital in Swansea issued yet another black alert due to exceptional demand. It's not the first time Morriston Hospital has had to issue such a notice. In fact, there have been nine separate black alert incidents in the last 12 months at Morriston. A black alert should only be implemented in exceptional circumstances, but the frequency with which we're seeing them now in Morriston suggests that they're anything but exceptional. It's experiencing continually high demand that they are clearly struggling to meet, and we all know why. It's because this Welsh Labour Government is the only one in the UK to cut an NHS budget not once, not twice, but three times in total. So, isn't it clear for all to see that the decision of this Welsh Labour Government to prioritise vanity projects like 20 mph speed limits and more politicians is having a real-world impact on our NHS and on those that rely on it the most?
Diolch yn fawr. Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet, yn gynharach y mis hwn, cyhoeddodd Ysbyty Treforys yn Abertawe rybudd du arall fyth oherwydd galw eithriadol. Nid dyma'r tro cyntaf i Ysbyty Treforys orfod cyhoeddi hysbysiad o'r fath. Yn wir, bu naw gwahanol ddigwyddiad rhybudd du yn ystod y 12 mis diwethaf yn Nhreforys. Dim ond mewn amgylchiadau eithriadol y dylid cyhoeddi rhybudd du, ond mae'r amlder a welwn yn Nhreforys yn awgrymu eu bod yn unrhyw beth ond eithriadol. Mae'n amlwg eu bod yn ei chael hi'n anodd ateb galw uchel parhaus, a gŵyr pob un ohonom pam. Mae'n digwydd am mai Llywodraeth Lafur Cymru yw’r unig un yn y DU i dorri cyllideb y GIG nid unwaith, nid ddwywaith, ond deirgwaith i gyd. Felly, onid yw'n glir i bawb fod penderfyniad Llywodraeth Lafur Cymru i flaenoriaethu prosiectau porthi balchder fel terfynau cyflymder 20 mya a rhagor o wleidyddion yn cael effaith ddiriaethol ar ein GIG ac ar y rhai sy'n dibynnu arno fwyaf?
You're quite right—the demand on the service is quite incredible. One of the things we've seen is a huge increase in the number of referrals to the NHS. In 2019, it was 1 million a year; in 2023, 1.2 million a year. That's a significant increase in the number of people. The number of people tested for cancer in 2019 was 8,000. Today, it's 14,000. That's a 75 per cent increase. So, of course, the pressures on our services are increasing. Some of that is a good thing in the sense that if you check people out, then you're more likely to catch cancer early, and that's a good thing for the patient.
Of course, those challenges in Swansea need to be addressed. Some of that is about delayed transfers of care, so there is a need to work much more closely with local authorities. But I do think that it's a bit self-indulgent to look at the fantasy politics that you're talking about, Tom. The fact is it's your Government that crashed the economy and has left us in a situation where we invest significantly less in health compared to the rest of Europe.
Rydych yn llygad eich lle—mae'r galw ar y gwasanaeth yn anhygoel. Un o'r pethau a welsom yw cynnydd enfawr yn nifer yr atgyfeiriadau i'r GIG. Yn 2019, roedd yn 1 filiwn y flwyddyn; yn 2023, 1.2 miliwn y flwyddyn. Mae hwnnw’n gynnydd sylweddol yn nifer y bobl. Nifer y bobl a gafodd brawf am ganser yn 2019 oedd 8,000. Heddiw, mae'n 14,000. Dyna gynnydd o 75 y cant. Felly, wrth gwrs, mae’r pwysau ar ein gwasanaethau'n cynyddu. Mae rhywfaint o hynny'n beth da yn yr ystyr, os ydych chi'n archwilio pobl, rydych chi'n fwy tebygol o ddal canser yn gynnar, ac mae hynny'n beth da i'r claf.
Wrth gwrs, mae angen mynd i’r afael â’r heriau hynny yn Abertawe. Mae rhywfaint o hynny'n ymwneud ag oedi wrth drosglwyddo gofal, felly mae angen gweithio’n llawer agosach gydag awdurdodau lleol. Ond credaf ei bod braidd yn hunanfoddhaol i edrych ar y wleidyddiaeth ffantasïol y soniwch chi amdani, Tom. Y gwir amdani yw mai eich Llywodraeth chi a chwalodd yr economi ac sydd wedi ein gadael mewn sefyllfa lle rydym yn buddsoddi llawer llai mewn iechyd o gymharu â gweddill Ewrop.
6. Pa gamau y mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn eu cymryd i sicrhau bod pobl ag anableddau dysgu'n cael gofal priodol yn y gymuned? OQ61013
6. What action is the Welsh Government taking to ensure that people with learning disabilities receive appropriate care in the community? OQ61013
Diolch. The Welsh Government is committed to ensuring that, wherever possible, people with learning disabilities are cared for at home rather than in a hospital. It is for health boards and local authorities to determine how people are best cared for based on their individual clinical and care needs.
Diolch. Mae Llywodraeth Cymru wedi ymrwymo i sicrhau, lle bynnag y bo modd, fod pobl ag anableddau dysgu yn cael gofal gartref yn hytrach nag mewn ysbyty. Mater i fyrddau iechyd ac awdurdodau lleol yw penderfynu ar y ffordd orau o ofalu am bobl ar sail eu hanghenion clinigol a gofal unigol.
Diolch a chroeso, Weinidog.
Thank you and welcome, Minister.
I met last year with representatives of the Stolen Lives campaign, and I know Sioned Williams was at the protest last week on the steps. I joined her as well to talk to young adults who have been detained in care for far too long. They've launched a petition entitled 'Stop the detention of learning disabled and autistic children, young people and adults in hospitals'. Again, I always think of my own daughter, who is nine years old this year. In 10 years' time, could she be facing those same circumstances alongside so many parents that turned up at the protest last week?
I've also met with constituents of mine whose autistic son is currently an in-patient at a mental health unit in a local hospital, but between November 2023 and April 2024 was held in prison where staff and psychologists remarked on how well he reacted to the structure and routine of prison life. I've met with the Equality and Human Rights Commission to ask that these issues are addressed and investigated. I think however well he adapted to prison, he shouldn't have been there in the first place. Anyone else remanded would've been on bail. There's a whole load of issues going on under the surface that, because the criminal justice system is not devolved, I think the Welsh Government is unaware of.
Therefore, can we meet, can we talk—and I would also extend my invitation to Mark Isherwood, as chair of the autism cross-party group—and have a discussion about this? I know Sioned is meeting with you. Unfortunately, I'm in committee that day asking questions of the education Minister, but I would appreciate a chance to meet with you and discuss this.
Cyfarfûm y llynedd â chynrychiolwyr ymgyrch Bywydau Wedi'u Dwyn, a gwn fod Sioned Williams yn y brotest yr wythnos diwethaf ar y grisiau. Ymunais â hi hefyd i siarad ag oedolion ifanc sydd wedi cael eu cadw mewn gofal am lawer gormod o amser. Maent wedi lansio deiseb o'r enw 'Stopio cadw plant, pobl ifanc ac oedolion ag anableddau dysgu ac awtistiaeth mewn ysbytai'. Unwaith eto, rwyf bob amser yn meddwl am fy merch fy hun, sy'n naw oed eleni. Ymhen 10 mlynedd, a allai hi fod yn wynebu'r un amgylchiadau ochr yn ochr â chymaint o rieni a ddaeth i'r brotest yr wythnos diwethaf?
Rwyf hefyd wedi cyfarfod ag etholwyr i mi y mae eu mab awtistig ar hyn o bryd yn glaf mewnol yn yr uned iechyd meddwl mewn ysbyty lleol, ond a gafodd ei gadw rhwng mis Tachwedd 2023 a mis Ebrill 2024 mewn carchar, lle nododd staff a seicolegwyr pa mor dda yr ymatebai i strwythur a threfn bywyd yn y carchar. Rwyf wedi cyfarfod â'r Comisiwn Cydraddoldeb a Hawliau Dynol i ofyn am sylw ac ymchwiliad i'r materion hyn. Ni waeth pa mor dda yr addasodd i'r carchar, nid wyf yn credu y dylai fod wedi bod yno yn y lle cyntaf. Byddai unrhyw un arall ar remánd wedi bod ar fechnïaeth. Mae llwyth o faterion o dan yr wyneb y credaf fod Llywodraeth Cymru yn anymwybodol ohonynt am nad yw'r system cyfiawnder troseddol wedi'i datganoli.
Felly, a gawn ni gyfarfod, a gawn ni siarad—a hoffwn estyn gwahoddiad hefyd i Mark Isherwood, fel cadeirydd y grŵp trawsbleidiol ar awtistiaeth—a chael trafodaeth am hyn? Gwn fod Sioned yn cyfarfod â chi. Yn anffodus, rwyf mewn pwyllgor y diwrnod hwnnw yn gofyn cwestiynau i'r Gweinidog addysg, ond byddwn yn gwerthfawrogi cyfle i gyfarfod â chi a thrafod hyn.
Diolch, Hefin. I'd like to thank Hefin for raising this important issue and for highlighting his constituents' case. As Hefin has said, I am aware that he has met with campaigners from the Stolen Lives campaign. I'd also like to take this opportunity to pay tribute to my predecessor, Julie Morgan, for her work in this area. I'd like to assure the Member that I and the Welsh Government share the ambition of the Stolen Lives campaign. We're committed to minimising the number of people with a learning disability cared for in a hospital setting. The key principle remains that, as far as practicable, individuals should be cared for at home, or as close to home as possible, and that a hospital bed is not a home. Indeed, this is a specific action within the Welsh Government's learning disability strategic action plan, which was published in 2022. I will be meeting representatives of the Stolen Lives campaign next week, with Sioned Williams, and I'm keen to hear directly from them. And, of course, while I cannot get involved in individual cases, I would very much be happy to meet with Hefin to discuss the wider issues raised. I believe my office has already been in touch with your office, Hefin, and dates are being discussed for such a meeting. I know that that meeting is extended to Mark Isherwood as well, due to the work that he's doing and his interest in this area. If there are other Members, do please let me know.
Diolch, Hefin. Hoffwn ddiolch i Hefin am godi’r mater pwysig hwn ac am dynnu sylw at achos ei etholwyr. Fel y dywedodd Hefin, rwy’n ymwybodol ei fod wedi cyfarfod ag ymgyrchwyr o ymgyrch Bywydau Wedi’u Dwyn. Hoffwn achub ar y cyfle hwn hefyd i dalu teyrnged i fy rhagflaenydd, Julie Morgan, am ei gwaith yn y maes hwn. Hoffwn roi sicrwydd i'r Aelod fy mod i a Llywodraeth Cymru yn rhannu uchelgais ymgyrch Bywydau Wedi’u Dwyn. Rydym wedi ymrwymo i leihau nifer y bobl ag anabledd dysgu y gofelir amdanynt mewn ysbyty. Erys yr egwyddor allweddol, cyn belled ag y bo’n ymarferol, y dylid gofalu am unigolion gartref, neu mor agos at eu cartrefi â phosibl, ac nad yw gwely ysbyty yn gartref. Yn wir, mae hwn yn gam gweithredu penodol yng nghynllun gweithredu strategol anabledd dysgu Llywodraeth Cymru, a gyhoeddwyd yn 2022. Byddaf yn cyfarfod â chynrychiolwyr ymgyrch Bywydau Wedi’u Dwyn yr wythnos nesaf, gyda Sioned Williams, ac rwy’n awyddus i glywed yn uniongyrchol ganddynt. Ac wrth gwrs, er na allaf ymwneud ag achosion unigol, rwy'n fwy na pharod i gyfarfod â Hefin i drafod y materion ehangach a godwyd. Rwy'n credu bod fy swyddfa eisoes wedi cysylltu â’ch swyddfa chi, Hefin, a bod dyddiadau’n cael eu trafod ar gyfer cyfarfod o’r fath. Gwn fod gwahoddiad i'r cyfarfod hwnnw wedi’i roi i Mark Isherwood hefyd, oherwydd y gwaith y mae’n ei wneud a’i ddiddordeb yn y maes hwn. Os oes Aelodau eraill, rhowch wybod i mi.
Sioned, thank you very much for raising this issue already. Yesterday, I attended a briefing organised by Disability Wales regarding the increased charges for non-residential care and support. I was shocked to learn that, despite assurances to the contrary, many of the poorest people in Wales are having to pay these charges and are often faced with the choice between paying for social care and food. Any increase in charges will undoubtedly force more people into this situation. With this in mind, Minister, will you abandon these plans or, at the very least, review the minimum income amount calculations?
Sioned, diolch yn fawr iawn am godi'r mater hwn yn barod. Ddoe, bûm mewn sesiwn friffio a drefnwyd gan Anabledd Cymru ynghylch y taliadau uwch am ofal a chymorth dibreswyl. Cefais sioc o glywed, er gwaethaf sicrwydd i’r gwrthwyneb, fod llawer o’r bobl dlotaf yng Nghymru yn gorfod talu’r taliadau hyn ac yn aml yn wynebu’r dewis rhwng talu am ofal cymdeithasol a bwyd. Bydd unrhyw godiad i daliadau, heb os, yn gorfodi mwy o bobl i'r sefyllfa hon. Gyda hyn mewn golwg, Weinidog, a wnewch chi roi’r gorau i’r cynlluniau hyn, neu o leiaf adolygu’r cyfrifiadau isafswm incwm?
Diolch. Thank you very much for that question, Altaf. Social care sits with my colleague Dawn Bowden, so, certainly, I'll happily discuss these issues with Dawn, and I'm sure she'll get in touch with you as well.FootnoteLink
Diolch am eich cwestiwn, Altaf. Fy nghyd-Aelod Dawn Bowden sy'n gyfrifol am ofal cymdeithasol, felly yn sicr, rwy'n fwy na pharod i drafod y materion hyn gyda Dawn, ac rwy'n siŵr y bydd hi'n cysylltu â chi hefyd.FootnoteLink
7. Pa gymorth y mae Llywodraeth Cymru wedi'i roi i Fwrdd Iechyd Prifysgol Aneurin Bevan i gynyddu cymorth iechyd meddwl ar-lein i bobl Islwyn? OQ61022
7. What support has the Welsh Government provided to Aneurin Bevan University Health Board to increase online mental health support for the people of Islwyn? OQ61022
Diolch. We'll continue to provide sustained funding to Aneurin Bevan University Health Board for the provision of mental health services in response to local needs. This includes the provision of online support. We also fund online and telephone-based mental health support nationally, which is available across Wales.
Diolch. Byddwn yn parhau i ddarparu cyllid parhaus i Fwrdd Iechyd Prifysgol Aneurin Bevan ar gyfer darparu gwasanaethau iechyd meddwl mewn ymateb i anghenion lleol. Mae hyn yn cynnwys darparu cymorth ar-lein. Rydym hefyd yn ariannu cymorth iechyd meddwl ar-lein a thros y ffôn yn genedlaethol, sydd ar gael ledled Cymru.
Minister, may I take this opportunity to welcome you, as a close colleague, to your new role on behalf of the people of Islwyn?
SilverCloud is a project that offers interactive programmes designed to teach practical skills for coping with mild to moderate mental health issues. The service is open to anyone over 16 in Wales and can be accessed for free via any digital service. It is groundbreaking and innovative. Since its pilot in Powys in 2018, funded by the Welsh Government, SilverCloud has helped and supported approximately 30,000 people and is now being used in the Aneurin Bevan University Health Board region, supporting the people of Gwent. Minister, this is a welcome development, helping to meet the increasing demand for therapy via a holistic suite of online self-help programmes, based on cognitive behavioural therapy.
What assessment has the Welsh Government made of the ability and capacity of mental health professionals to support and supervise its use, check understanding and monitor progress or lack of progress of the participants? Because the obvious potential concern is that whilst more people gain access to initial mental health support, those with more serious problems would require bespoke intervention and pathways to higher intensity in-person therapy during or straight after their interaction with SilverCloud. What evidence and assurances can you provide to me that such quality control and assessments are indeed taking place?
Weinidog, a gaf i achub ar y cyfle hwn i’ch croesawu, fel cydweithiwr agos, i’ch rôl newydd ar ran pobl Islwyn?
Mae SilverCloud yn brosiect sy’n cynnig rhaglenni rhyngweithiol wedi’u cynllunio i addysgu sgiliau ymarferol ar gyfer ymdopi â materion iechyd meddwl mân i gymedrol. Mae’r gwasanaeth yn agored i unrhyw un dros 16 oed yng Nghymru, a gellir cael mynediad ato am ddim drwy unrhyw wasanaeth digidol. Mae'n torri tir newydd ac yn arloesol. Ers ei gynllun peilot ym Mhowys yn 2018, a ariannwyd gan Lywodraeth Cymru, mae SilverCloud wedi helpu a chefnogi oddeutu 30,000 o bobl, ac mae bellach yn cael ei ddefnyddio yn ardal Bwrdd Iechyd Prifysgol Aneurin Bevan i gefnogi pobl Gwent. Weinidog, mae hwn yn ddatblygiad i’w groesawu, sy'n helpu i ateb y galw cynyddol am therapi drwy gyfres gyfannol o raglenni hunangymorth ar-lein, yn seiliedig ar therapi gwybyddol ymddygiadol.
Pa asesiad y mae Llywodraeth Cymru wedi’i wneud o allu a chapasiti gweithwyr iechyd meddwl proffesiynol i gefnogi a goruchwylio ei ddefnydd, gwirio dealltwriaeth a monitro cynnydd neu ddiffyg cynnydd y cyfranogwyr? Oherwydd er bod mwy o bobl yn cael mynediad at gymorth iechyd meddwl cychwynnol, y pryder posibl amlwg yw y byddai angen ymyrraeth bwrpasol a llwybrau at therapi wyneb yn wyneb dwyster uwch ar y rheini sydd â phroblemau mwy difrifol yn ystod neu’n syth ar ôl eu cyswllt â SilverCloud. Pa dystiolaeth a sicrwydd y gallwch eu rhoi i mi fod prosesau rheoli ansawdd ac asesiadau o’r fath yn cael eu cynnal?
Diolch. Thank you very much for that question, Rhianon, and for your really kind words of welcome—very much appreciated.
As you said, cognitive behavioural therapy has been a very positive development in this area. The aim of providing access to online CBT is to prevent escalation to more specialised support. Whilst the programme is online, it is supported by a team of clinicians in Powys health board who can help identify if individuals accessing the support need different or more specialist support through the screening questionnaire and the sign-up. A range of information is also recorded about outcomes and experiences, and these are reviewed regularly to ensure that support is meeting need. Powys health board, who lead the programme for NHS Wales, are currently working with our NHS joint commissioning committee and the NHS executive to develop the future model of online CBT to ensure that needs are met and a more standardised approach across Wales. As you have mentioned, the service has received around 30,000 sign-ups, with approximately 30 per cent from the Aneurin Bevan University Health Board area. The online CBT is one of a number of easy-to-access mental health services that the Welsh Government funds nationally. This includes our CALL listening and advice line and the Beat eating disorder helpline, and this is part of our approach to improve access to support.
I'd also just like to take this opportunity to highlight specifically within the Aneurin Bevan University Health Board area that residents are also able to access free self-help for their mental health and well-being through the Melo website. This website provides access to information about how to look after your mental health and well-being, as well as signposting to other services if help is required. So, I just wanted to highlight that particular area.
Diolch yn fawr iawn am eich cwestiwn, Rhianon, ac am eich geiriau caredig o groeso—fe'u gwerthfawrogir yn fawr iawn.
Fel y dywedoch chi, mae therapi gwybyddol ymddygiadol wedi bod yn ddatblygiad cadarnhaol iawn yn y maes hwn. Nod darparu mynediad at therapi gwybyddol ymddygiadol ar-lein yw atal uwchgyfeirio at gymorth mwy arbenigol. Er ei bod yn rhaglen ar-lein, fe’i cefnogir gan dîm o glinigwyr ym Mwrdd Iechyd Powys a all helpu i nodi a oes angen cymorth gwahanol neu fwy arbenigol ar unigolion sy’n cael mynediad at y cymorth drwy’r holiadur sgrinio a’r broses gofrestru. Mae ystod o wybodaeth hefyd yn cael ei chofnodi am ganlyniadau a phrofiadau, ac mae'r rhain yn cael eu hadolygu'n rheolaidd i sicrhau bod cymorth yn diwallu'r angen. Mae bwrdd iechyd Powys, sy’n arwain y rhaglen ar gyfer GIG Cymru, yn gweithio ar hyn o bryd gyda chyd-bwyllgor comisiynu'r GIG a gweithrediaeth y GIG i ddatblygu model therapi gwybyddol ymddygiadol ar-lein ar gyfer y dyfodol i sicrhau bod anghenion yn cael eu diwallu a dull gweithredu mwy safonol ar waith ledled Cymru. Fel rydych chi wedi sôn, mae oddeutu 30,000 o bobl wedi cofrestru â'r gwasanaeth, gydag oddeutu 30 y cant o ardal Bwrdd Iechyd Prifysgol Aneurin Bevan. Mae’r gwasanaeth therapi gwybyddol ymddygiadol ar-lein yn un o nifer o wasanaethau iechyd meddwl hawdd eu cyrchu y mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn eu hariannu’n genedlaethol. Mae hyn yn cynnwys ein llinell wrando a chyngor CALL a llinell gymorth anhwylderau bwyta Beat, ac mae hyn yn rhan o’n dull o wella mynediad at gymorth.
Hoffwn achub ar y cyfle hwn hefyd i dynnu sylw at y ffaith bod preswylwyr yn ardal Bwrdd Iechyd Prifysgol Aneurin Bevan yn benodol hefyd yn gallu cael mynediad am ddim at hunangymorth iechyd meddwl a llesiant meddyliol drwy wefan Melo. Mae'r wefan hon yn darparu mynediad at wybodaeth ynglŷn â sut i ofalu am eich iechyd meddwl a'ch llesiant meddyliol, yn ogystal â chyfeirio at wasanaethau eraill os oes angen cymorth. Felly, roeddwn yn awyddus i dynnu sylw at y maes penodol hwnnw.
Ac yn olaf, cwestiwn 8—Rhun ap Iorwerth.
Finally, question 8—Rhun ap Iorwerth.
8. A wnaiff yr Ysgrifennydd Cabinet roi'r wybodaeth ddiweddaraf am gynlluniau i ddatblygu canolfan gofal iechyd amlddisgyblaethol newydd yng Nghaergybi? OQ61010
8. Will the Cabinet Secretary provide an update on plans to develop a new multidisciplinary healthcare centre in Holyhead? OQ61010
Dwi yn ymwybodol am y cynnig i ddatblygu canolfan iechyd a lles newydd yng Nghaergybi. Mae trafodaethau yn mynd ymlaen rhwng swyddogion Llywodraeth Cymru a'r bwrdd iechyd.
I am aware of proposals for the development of a new health and well-being centre in Holyhead, and discussions are ongoing between Welsh Government officials and the health board.
Diolch yn fawr iawn am yr ymateb yna. Mae hi bron i bum mlynedd bellach ers i feddygfeydd Longford Road a Cambria orfod cael eu cymryd drosodd gan y bwrdd iechyd yn uniongyrchol. Mi unwyd y ddwy feddygfa yn dilyn hynny, ond mae'r gwasanaeth sydd wedi bod mewn bodolaeth yng Nghaergybi ers hynny wedi bod yn fregus tu hwnt. Yn ddiweddar, mi glywsom ni'r meddygon yn codi pryderon ynglŷn â chynaliadwyedd staffio yno. Mi enillon ni'r frwydr a chael yr adduned bod yna feddygfa amlddisgyblaethol newydd yn mynd i gael ei datblygu yng Nghaergybi, ond yn anffodus mae pethau wedi mynd yn dawel—does yna ddim diweddariadau wedi bod. Mae pobl Caergybi yn haeddu hyn; maen nhw angen y gwasanaeth hwn. A gaf i annog a gofyn am ymrwymiad clir gan y Gweinidog y bydd hi'n mynd ar ôl y bwrdd iechyd i sicrhau bod y mater yma'n cael ei ddilyn i fyny, a hynny'n fuan?
Thank you very much for that response. It's almost five years now since the Longford Road and Cambria surgeries had to be taken over by the health board directly. The surgeries were merged following that, but the service that has existed in Holyhead since then has been very fragile indeed. Recently, we heard GPs raising concerns about the sustainability of staffing there. We won the battle and got the pledge that there would be a new multidisciplinary healthcare centre developed in Holyhead, but unfortunately things have gone very quiet—there have been no updates. The people of Holyhead deserve this; they need this service. Can I ask for a clear commitment from the Minister that she will pursue the health board to ensure that this issue is followed up urgently?
Diolch yn fawr. Fel rŷch chi'n ymwybodol, roedd proposal wedi dod i Lywodraeth Cymru trwy pathfinder project y cronfa gyfalaf integreiddio ac ailgydbwyso yn 2022. Roedd angen lot mwy o waith arno, felly roedd rhaid i'r bwrdd iechyd wneud mwy o feasibility study ynglŷn ag opsiynau. Dwi yn meddwl bod hwn yn rhan o ddatblygiad lle rŷn ni eisiau gweld lot mwy o ffocws ar prevention ac ymyrraeth yn gynnar. Dwi yn gobeithio y bydd blaenoriaeth yn cael ei wneud trwy brosesau'r bwrdd partneriaeth rhanbarthol, a bydd rhaid iddyn nhw benderfynu beth sy'n cael blaenoriaeth tu fewn i'r bwrdd iechyd. Dwi'n gwybod bod y bwrdd iechyd yn gobeithio y bydd application am business case development fees yn dod trwy'r IRCF erbyn mis Medi.
Thank you. As you're aware, a proposal was made to the Welsh Government by the integration and rebalancing capital fund pathfinder project in 2022. There was a need for a lot more work done on that proposal, and therefore the health board had to carry out more feasibility studies on options. I do think that this is part of a development where we do want to see far more focus on prevention and early intervention. I do hope that priority can be given through the regional partnership board process, and they will have to decide what is prioritised within the health board. I do know that the health board hopes that an application for business case development fees will be coming through the IRCF by September.
Diolch i'r Ysgrifennydd Cabinet. Dyna ddiwedd ar y cwestiynau yna.
I thank the Cabinet Secretary. That concludes that set of questions.
Y cwestiwn amserol sydd nesaf. Mae'r cwestiwn yma i'w ateb gan Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet dros yr economi ac i'w ofyn gan Heledd Fychan.
We have a topical question next. This is to be answered by the Cabinet Secretary for economy and to be asked by Heledd Fychan.
1. A wnaiff yr Ysgrifennydd Cabinet ddatganiad yn ymateb i'r newyddion bod dros 100 o swyddi gyda chwmni Everest mewn perygl o'u colli yn Rhondda Cynon Taf? TQ1062
1. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement in response to the news that over 100 jobs with Everest are at risk of being lost in Rhondda Cynon Taf? TQ1062
Diolch am y cwestiwn. Rwy'n ymwybodol iawn o'r effaith fydd hyn yn ei gael ar staff a’r gymuned ehangach yn Nhreherbert. Mae fy swyddogion yn gweithio gyda phartneriaid, yn cynnwys cyngor Rhondda Cynon Taf, y Department for Work and Pensions a Gyrfa Cymru i gefnogi’r gweithwyr sy'n cael eu heffeithio drwy’r broses hon.
Thank you for the question. I'm aware of the impact that this will have on staff and the broader community in Treherbert. My officials are working with partners, including RCT council, the Department for Work and Pensions and Careers Wales to support the workers who will be affected through this process.
Daeth y Dirprwy Lywydd (David Rees) i’r Gadair.
The Deputy Presiding Officer (David Rees) took the Chair.
Diolch yn fawr, Ysgrifennydd Cabinet. Yn amlwg, yn dod mor fuan wedi colli bron i 500 o swyddi yn ôl ym mis Hydref efo UK Windows and Doors, mae hyn yn newydd trychinebus i'r ardal. Yn amlwg, mae rhai o'r bobl oedd wedi’u cyflogi gan Everest wedi ffeindio cyflogaeth yn dilyn colli swyddi, ac am yr eilwaith yn wynebu dyfodol ansicr. Mae nifer o bobl hefyd gollodd eu swyddi yn ôl ym mis Hydref dal heb ffeindio swydd amgen, felly does yna ddim swyddi sydd yn talu cystal na chwaith yn yr ardal hon.
Yn amlwg, fe fuodd yna gysylltiad rhwng Llywodraeth Cymru a'r cwmni hwn rhai blynyddoedd yn ôl pan fuodd y cwmni mewn trafferth. Gaf i ofyn, felly, pa gysylltiad diweddar sydd wedi bod gyda'r cwmni er mwyn gweld a oedd posib achub y swyddi hyn? Hefyd, o ystyried bod UK Windows and Doors ac Everest wedi arwain at ddiswyddiadau mor sylweddol, pa asesiad sy'n cael ei wneud o sefyllfa cwmnïau eraill yn Rhondda Cynon Taf? A pha waith mae’ch swyddogion chi’n ei wneud i sicrhau ein bod ni ddim yn mynd i gael sioc arall fel hyn, gyda chynifer o swyddi yn cael eu colli, a’n bod ni'n gweithio er mwyn sicrhau pob swydd sydd yna’n bresennol, ond hefyd i greu swyddi mewn ardal sydd dirfawr angen buddsoddiad a swyddi sy'n mynd i gadw pobl yn yr ardal, er mwyn rhoi yr hwb economaidd i ardal lle mae lefel difreintiedig mor uchel, a lle mae'n rhaid inni gael datrysiadau?
Thank you very much, Cabinet Secretary. Now, clearly, coming so soon after the loss of almost 500 jobs back in October at UK Windows and Doors, this is disastrous news for the area. Clearly, some of the people who were employed by Everest had found employment having lost their jobs, and for the second time are facing an uncertain future. Many people who lost their jobs back in October still haven't found alternative employment, so there are no jobs that are as well paying or available in this area.
Now, clearly, there was contact between the Welsh Government and this company some years ago when the company faced difficulties. Can I ask you, therefore, what recent contact there's been with the company to see whether it was possible to save these posts? Also, given that UK Windows and Doors and Everest have led to substantial job losses, what assessment is being made of the situation and position of other companies in RCT? And what work are your officials doing in order to ensure that we won't get another shock such as this one, with so many jobs being lost, and that we do work in order to secure all the jobs there currently, but also to create jobs in an area that desperately needs investment and jobs that will keep people in the area, in order to give an economic boost to an area where the levels of disadvantage are so high, and where we do have to have those jobs?
Well, fel mae'r Aelod yn dweud, mae'r gweithlu yno, yn Everest, yn un rŷn ni wedi ei gefnogi yn y gorffennol pan oedd y cwmni o dan bwysau. Ein ffocws ni nawr yw gwneud popeth y gallwn ni i ddod o hyd i gyfleoedd gwahanol iddyn nhw, ble bynnag mae angen gwneud hynny. Rŷn ni wedi siarad gyda'r cyngor ac, fel roeddwn i'n dweud, gyda'r cyrff eraill er mwyn sicrhau ein bod ni'n cydweithio. Mae rhaglen ReAct wedi'i chychwyn i gefnogi’r unigolion sydd yn colli eu swyddi. Rwyf wedi siarad fy hunan gyda'r cynghorydd lleol, gyda Buffy Williams fel yr Aelod ar gyfer y Rhondda, ac mae fy swyddogion i hefyd wedi bod mewn cysylltiad gyda'r cwmni pan oedd e’n amlwg bod her yn codi, felly buon nhw mewn cysylltiad yn syth ar ôl inni ddarganfod bod risg.
O ran beth sydd yn digwydd yn yr economi ehangach, y drafferth yn aml yw dyw’r her ddim yn dod yn amlwg i ni fel Llywodraeth tan ei bod hi’n agos at fod yn rhy hwyr. Dyna sut mae pethau, yn aml, yn gweithio, yn anffodus. Ond rŷn ni yn gweithio’r gyda'r corporate joint committee a gyda'r cyngor i sicrhau bod y rhanbarth a dêl y rhanbarth yn ffocysu ar gynllun penodol ar gyfer y Rhondda, gan gadw mewn golwg y ffaith ein bod ni ddim yn gwybod beth a ddaw yn y dyfodol.
Mae'r northern Valleys initiative, sydd yn gynllun sydd gan y rhanbarth, a'r gronfa sites and premises—mae cyfleoedd iddyn nhw hefyd i fod yn edrych am gyfleoedd yn y Cymoedd, yn y Rhondda yn benodol, ac yn ehangach na hynny hefyd. Felly, dyna’r sefyllfa o’n safbwynt ni ar hyn o bryd.
Well, as the Member says, the workforce there, in Everest, is one that we've supported in the past when the company was under pressure. Our focus now is to do everything that we can to find different opportunities for them, wherever we are able to do that. We have spoken to the council and the other bodies, as I mentioned, to ensure that we do collaborate. The ReAct programme has been started to support the individuals who will lose their jobs. I've spoken to the local councillor, with Buffy Williams, as the RCT Member, and my officials have been in contact with the company when it was obvious that there were challenges arising, so they were in contact immediately after we found that there was a risk.
In terms of what's happening in the broader economy, the problem often is that the challenge doesn't emerge for the Government until it's nearly too late. That's how things often work, unfortunately. But we are working with the corporate joint committee and with the council to ensure that the region and the regional deal are focusing on a specific plan for Rhondda, bearing in mind the fact that we don't know what the future holds.
The northern Valleys initiative, which is a scheme that the region has, and the sites and premises fund—there are opportunities for them as well to be looking at opportunities in the Valleys, and in Rhondda in particular, and more broadly too. So, that's the situation from our perspective at present.
Cabinet Secretary, can I begin by echoing the thoughts of Heledd in terms of saying how devastated I am for the workers of the Everest site, with so many people being made redundant, as has been reported? I appreciate that this must be a worrying time for them and their families, and I hope that they're able to find work quickly.
Sadly, it seems that we will always face issues such as this as our economy adapts to technological advances and decarbonisation. Industries change, and our economy weathers the storms that come from global influences outside of our control. Ultimately, we need to be able to provide workers with skills that enable them to be resilient in the jobs market, and to be able to quickly find work when circumstances such as these come about. With this in mind, Cabinet Secretary, what efforts are the Welsh Government making to ensure that those people who have lost their jobs from the Everest site in Treherbert are made aware of the help and support that is available to them, to apply for new roles or to access additional training to reskill, and what steps are the Government taking to build that employee resilience in the job market? Thank you.
Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet, a gaf i ddechrau drwy adleisio'r hyn a ddywedodd Heledd o ran pa mor ofidus wyf i ar ran gweithwyr safle Everest, gyda chymaint o bobl wedi cael eu diswyddo, fel yr adroddwyd? Rwy’n sylweddoli bod yn rhaid bod hwn yn gyfnod pryderus iddynt hwy a’u teuluoedd, ac rwy'n gobeithio y gallant ddod o hyd i waith yn gyflym.
Yn anffodus, ymddengys y byddwn bob amser yn wynebu materion fel hyn wrth i’n heconomi addasu i ddatblygiadau technolegol a datgarboneiddio. Mae diwydiannau’n newid, ac mae ein heconomi yn gorfod ymdopi â stormydd sy’n deillio o ddylanwadau byd-eang y tu hwnt i’n rheolaeth. Yn y pen draw, mae angen inni allu darparu sgiliau i weithwyr sy’n eu galluogi i fod yn wydn yn y farchnad swyddi, ac i allu dod o hyd i waith yn gyflym pan fo amgylchiadau fel hyn yn codi. Gyda hyn mewn golwg, Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet, pa ymdrechion y mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn eu gwneud i sicrhau bod y bobl sydd wedi colli eu swyddi ar safle Everest yn Nhreherbert yn cael gwybod am y cymorth a'r gefnogaeth sydd ar gael iddynt, i wneud cais am swyddi newydd neu i gael mynediad at hyfforddiant ychwanegol i ailsgilio, a pha gamau y mae’r Llywodraeth yn eu cymryd i feithrin y gwytnwch hwnnw ymhlith gweithwyr yn y farchnad swyddi? Diolch.
Thank you to Joel James for that further question. Well, as Heledd Fychan was saying, this is an experience that some workers have had very recently as well, so it's particularly distressing, I think, for people who have been made redundant once and are, within a few months, in the same situation again. I know there are many people in that situation who have been employed at Everest.
What we are doing is that the ReAct programme, which is for the purpose of providing skills and support for those facing redundancy, has now been activated and is supporting individuals who have been impacted critically. My officials are working closely with the council, who I know, when this kind of event has happened in the past, have been very proactive in making sure they bring together all the relevant sources of support in that multi-agency way. So, we will be working alongside them in relation to that, to make it as accessible as possible for the employees who are affected. And as I mentioned earlier, my officials have also been in touch with the company to highlight to them the support that the Welsh Government is able to bring.
Diolch i Joel James am ei gwestiwn pellach. Wel, fel y dywedodd Heledd Fychan, mae hwn yn brofiad y mae rhai gweithwyr wedi’i gael yn ddiweddar iawn hefyd, felly credaf ei fod yn peri gofid arbennig i bobl sydd wedi cael eu diswyddo unwaith ac sydd, o fewn ychydig fisoedd, yn yr un sefyllfa unwaith eto. Gwn fod llawer o bobl a oedd wedi'u cyflogi yn Everest yn y sefyllfa honno.
Yr hyn a wnawn yw sicrhau bod rhaglen ReAct, a luniwyd er mwyn darparu sgiliau a chymorth i bobl sy’n wynebu colli eu swyddi, bellach ar waith ac yn cefnogi unigolion yr effeithiwyd yn ddifrifol arnynt. Mae fy swyddogion yn gweithio’n agos gyda’r cyngor, y gwn eu bod, pan fo'r math hwn o ddigwyddiad wedi codi yn y gorffennol, wedi bod yn rhagweithiol iawn yn sicrhau eu bod yn dod â’r holl ffynonellau cymorth perthnasol ynghyd yn y ffordd amlasiantaethol honno. Felly, byddwn yn gweithio ochr yn ochr â nhw yn y cyswllt hwnnw, i'w wneud mor hygyrch â phosibl i'r gweithwyr yr effeithir arnynt. Ac fel y soniais yn gynharach, mae fy swyddogion hefyd wedi bod mewn cysylltiad â'r cwmni i dynnu sylw at y cymorth y gall Llywodraeth Cymru ei roi.
Diolch i Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet.
I thank the Cabinet Secretary.
Eitem 4 heddiw yw'r datganiadau 90 eiliad. Dim ond un datganiad sydd heddiw, gan Heledd Fychan.
Item 4 today is the 90-second statements. There is only one statement today, and that's from Heledd Fychan.
Diolch yn fawr iawn, Dirprwy Lywydd. This week is Maternal Mental Health Awareness Week. This year's theme is 'rediscovering you'. The journey to motherhood is not always an easy one, and too many new mothers are left alone and unsure on where to turn to for support. Up to one in five will suffer from maternal mental health disorders such as postpartum depression, and less than 15 per cent of women receive treatment. This is why today I would like to take a moment to highlight the remarkable work being done by Katy and her team at Mothers Matter. Developed during lockdown by Katy, Mothers Matter is a community-led perinatal mental health and well-being organisation based in my region, in Tonypandy, that is dedicated to supporting mothers, fathers and their families before, during and after childbirth. They provide unwavering support to expectant and new parents throughout the critical early stages of their child's development, up to the age of five.
I recently had the opportunity to visit Katy and her team at their newly opened parenting centre, the first of its kind in Wales. The centre provides families with essentials such as nappies, milk and clothing, offering support to parents during financially difficult times. In addition, they offer a range of free services, such as community-based home support, individual counselling, community groups, well-being hubs, befriending groups and educational classes. All these services are carefully crafted to address perinatal mental health challenges among new parents. Many of you had the opportunity to learn more about Mothers Matter and their new baby loss project yesterday. But for any new parent struggling, please know that you are not alone. Support is available, and as the testimonies of those supported by organisations like Mothers Matter show, things can get better with the right support, and there is light at the end of the tunnel.
Diolch yn fawr iawn, Ddirprwy Lywydd. Mae'r wythnos hon yn Wythnos Ymwybyddiaeth Iechyd Meddwl Mamau. Thema eleni yw 'ailddarganfod eich hun'. Nid yw’r daith i fod yn fam bob amser yn un hawdd, ac mae gormod o famau newydd yn cael eu gadael ar eu pen eu hunain ac yn ansicr ble i droi am gymorth. Bydd hyd at un o bob pum mam newydd yn dioddef o anhwylderau iechyd meddwl fel iselder ôl-enedigol, ac mae llai na 15 y cant o fenywod yn cael triniaeth. Dyma pam yr hoffwn roi eiliad heddiw i dynnu sylw at y gwaith rhyfeddol sy'n cael ei wneud gan Katy a'i thîm yn Mothers Matter. Sefydlwyd Mothers Matter gan Katy yn ystod y cyfyngiadau symud ac mae'n sefydliad iechyd meddwl a llesiant meddyliol amenedigol a arweinir gan y gymuned yn fy rhanbarth i, yn Nhonypandy, sy'n ymroddedig i gefnogi mamau, tadau a’u teuluoedd cyn, yn ystod ac ar ôl genedigaeth. Maent yn darparu cefnogaeth ddiwyro i ddarpar rieni a rhieni newydd drwy gydol y cyfnodau cynnar hanfodol yn natblygiad eu plentyn, hyd at bum mlwydd oed.
Yn ddiweddar, cefais gyfle i ymweld â Katy a’i thîm yn eu canolfan rianta newydd, y gyntaf o’i bath yng Nghymru. Mae’r ganolfan yn darparu hanfodion fel cewynnau, llaeth a dillad i deuluoedd, gan gynnig cymorth i rieni mewn cyfnodau anodd yn ariannol. Yn ogystal, maent yn cynnig ystod o wasanaethau am ddim, fel cymorth cartref yn y gymuned, cwnsela unigol, grwpiau cymunedol, hybiau llesiant, grwpiau cyfeillio a dosbarthiadau addysgol. Mae'r holl wasanaethau hyn wedi'u llunio'n ofalus i fynd i'r afael â heriau iechyd meddwl amenedigol ymhlith rhieni newydd. Cafodd llawer ohonoch gyfle i ddysgu mwy am Mothers Matter a’u prosiect colli babi newydd ddoe. Ond i unrhyw riant newydd sy'n ei chael hi'n anodd, cofiwch nad ydych chi ar eich pen eich hun. Mae cymorth ar gael, ac fel y mae tystiolaeth y rheini sydd wedi'u cefnogi gan sefydliadau fel Mothers Matter yn ei ddangos, fe all pethau wella gyda’r cymorth cywir, ac mae goleuni ym mhen draw'r twnnel.
Diolch, Heledd. I did meet with them yesterday at lunchtime.
Diolch, Heledd. Fe wneuthum gyfarfod â nhw ddoe amser cinio.
Eitem 5 yw'r ddadl ar adroddiad y Pwyllgor Deisebau, 'Gaeaf cynhesach: P-06-1326 Dylai’r Senedd graffu ar y sgandal mesuryddion rhagdalu yng Nghymru'. Galwaf ar Gadeirydd y pwyllgor i wneud y cynnig—Jack Sargeant.
Item 5 is the debate on the Petitions Committee report, 'A Warmer Winter: P-06-1326 The Senedd should scrutinise the prepayment meter scandal in Wales'. I call on the Chair of the committee to move the motion—Jack Sargeant.
Cynnig NDM8559 Jack Sargeant
Cynnig bod y Senedd:
Yn nodi adroddiad y Pwyllgor Deisebau, ‘Gaeaf cynhesach: P-06-1326 Dylai’r Senedd graffu ar y sgandal mesuryddion rhagdalu yng Nghymru', a osodwyd yn y Swyddfa Gyflwyno ar 30 Tachwedd 2023.
Motion NDM8559 Jack Sargeant
To propose that the Senedd:
Notes the report of the Petitions Committee, ‘A Warmer Winter: P-06-1326 The Senedd should scrutinise the prepayment meter scandal in Wales’, which was laid in the Table Office on 30 November 2023.
Cynigiwyd y cynnig.
Motion moved.
Diolch yn fawr, Dirprwy Lywydd. At the end of last year, the Petitions Committee published its report titled, 'A Warmer Winter'. The report made a series of recommendations to the Government and other stakeholders to ensure that energy companies would not and could not repeat their actions of the previous winter, where thousands of vulnerable customers were treated disgracefully—their homes invaded and then forced on to a payment method that they had not asked for.
Some of these customers, Deputy Presiding Officer, were running medical equipment at home; some of them had chronic conditions; some of them with very young children and young families. 'Involuntary installation' is an industry term for the fitting of prepayment meters without the consent of the customer. This can be done via warrant from a court, or by remotely switching a smart meter to prepay mode.
The committee was moved to undertake this work by a petition submitted by Climate Cymru, and we're grateful to them for engaging with our process. We are also grateful to all those who provided evidence for our work, including the third sector campaigners, one of the journalists who did so much to uncover the scandal, Dean Kirby, and the representatives of the energy companies and their regulator, Ofgem. Deputy Presiding Officer, I'd also like to put on record our thanks as a committee to the chair and all of the team at Splott Community Volunteers in Cardiff for allowing us to launch our report at one of their energy advice sessions. I'm also grateful to the Welsh Government and Ofgem for producing thoughtful responses to the committee's recommendations. Our hope in undertaking this work and producing our report was to ensure that the first duty of energy companies and the industry regulator Ofgem will be to the people, not the enormous profits of energy suppliers.
Diolch yn fawr, Ddirprwy Lywydd. Ddiwedd y llynedd, cyhoeddodd y Pwyllgor Deisebau adroddiad o'r enw 'Gaeaf Cynhesach'. Fe wnaeth yr adroddiad gyfres o argymhellion i’r Llywodraeth a rhanddeiliaid eraill i sicrhau na fyddai ac na allai cwmnïau ynni ailadrodd gweithredoedd y gaeaf blaenorol, lle cafodd miloedd o gwsmeriaid agored i niwed eu trin yn warthus—pobl yn gwthio'u ffordd i mewn i'w cartrefi a'u gorfodi i ddefnyddio dull o dalu nad oeddent wedi gofyn amdano.
Roedd rhai o’r cwsmeriaid hyn, Ddirprwy Lywydd, yn defnyddio offer meddygol gartref; roedd gan rai ohonynt gyflyrau cronig; roedd gan rai ohonynt blant ifanc iawn a theuluoedd ifanc. 'Gosod anwirfoddol' yw term y diwydiant ar gyfer gosod mesurydd rhagdalu heb gydsyniad y defnyddiwr. Gellir gwneud hyn drwy warant gan y llysoedd, neu drwy newid mesurydd deallus o bell i'r modd rhagdalu.
Ysgogwyd y pwyllgor i wneud y gwaith hwn gan ddeiseb a gyflwynwyd gan Climate Cymru, ac rydym yn ddiolchgar iddynt am ymgysylltu â’n proses. Rydym hefyd yn ddiolchgar i bawb a ddarparodd dystiolaeth ar gyfer ein gwaith, gan gynnwys ymgyrchwyr y trydydd sector, un o’r newyddiadurwyr a wnaeth gymaint i ddatgelu’r sgandal, Dean Kirby, a chynrychiolwyr y cwmnïau ynni a’u rheoleiddiwr, Ofgem. Ddirprwy Lywydd, hoffwn hefyd gofnodi ein diolch fel pwyllgor i’r cadeirydd a’r tîm cyfan yn Gwirfoddolwyr Cymunedol Sblot yng Nghaerdydd am ganiatáu inni lansio ein hadroddiad yn un o’u sesiynau cyngor ar ynni. Rwyf hefyd yn ddiolchgar i Lywodraeth Cymru ac i Ofgem am ddarparu ymatebion ystyriol i argymhellion y pwyllgor. Ein gobaith wrth ymgymryd â’r gwaith hwn a chynhyrchu ein hadroddiad oedd sicrhau mai i’r bobl y mae dyletswydd gyntaf cwmnïau ynni a rheoleiddiwr y diwydiant, Ofgem, nid i elw enfawr cyflenwyr ynni.
Deputy Presiding Officer, I'm pleased to say that since we started our work, there have been some changes, and although I would like very much to see more changes, it is important to recognise the ones that have been made. Ofgem has introduced the mandatory code of conduct that we wanted to see, and it could have been more generous, but at least it does give some protection to consumers. But as we speak here today, as we hold this debate, we know that seven energy suppliers have already been given the green light to restart involuntary installation of prepayment meters in Wales and the United Kingdom. And despite the new mandatory code of conduct, vulnerable people in Wales could still have a prepayment meter forcibly installed in their home this winter, just because they don't meet the strict criteria for exemption. What is vital now is that the energy regulator Ofgem continues to monitor the code of practice and, more importantly, makes changes if things are not working.
There are approximately 200,000 households in Wales using the prepayment meter for their mains gas and their mains electricity, and with energy debts across Britain at record levels, there is a danger that that number grows even higher. Now, while the energy price cap came down in April this year, it is far from the end of the crisis in the cost of energy. Energy prices are still 49 per cent higher than they were before the crisis started. Energy debt is at record levels. Fuel poverty in Wales—and in some cases, Deputy Presiding Officer, extreme fuel poverty—has become the norm for many low-income households. The lesson from this scandal is clear: we should not trust the suppliers to mark their own homework. The UK Government and the regulator Ofgem should have acted quicker when the scale of the scandal became clear to many. The way suppliers view their vulnerable customers is all wrong, and it shaped the way they behaved over the prepayment meter scandal. During evidence to the committee, this is what one chief executive of an energy supplier said when giving evidence, and I quote, Deputy Presiding Officer:
'I think we have a real problem still in the UK about people who can pay for their energy but who decide they won’t pay. And if society was such that people were completely honest and we wouldn’t need to have this debate, then we probably wouldn’t be in this situation. But it is a real problem. Every day, we have thousands of people who just decide they would prefer to go on holiday rather pay for their energy, or prioritise something else.'
Deputy Presiding Officer, I was stunned by this statement of this particular chief executive of a supplier. For me, this is not someone running an organisation that understands the needs of vulnerable customers in Wales and the United Kingdom.
I look forward to hearing the debate today, but one thing that is clear to me, that there is more that will need to be done in the months and years to come to ensure that there is no backsliding from Ofgem and energy suppliers. And all of us in this Chamber will need to maintain the political pressure that ensures the needs of vulnerable consumers in Cymru are not forgotten in the rush to making multimillion pound profits. I'm grateful for the time, Deputy Presiding Officer; I'm grateful to committee members as well. I look forward to the debate today. Diolch.
Ddirprwy Lywydd, rwy’n falch o ddweud, ers inni ddechrau ar ein gwaith, fod rhai newidiadau wedi bod, ac er yr hoffwn yn fawr iawn weld mwy o newidiadau, mae’n bwysig cydnabod y rheini sydd wedi’u gwneud. Mae Ofgem wedi cyflwyno’r cod ymddygiad gorfodol yr oeddem am ei weld, a gallai fod wedi bod yn fwy hael, ond o leiaf mae’n rhoi rhywfaint o amddiffyniad i ddefnyddwyr. Ond wrth inni siarad yma heddiw, wrth inni gynnal y ddadl hon, gwyddom fod saith cyflenwr ynni eisoes wedi cael caniatâd i ailddechrau gosod mesuryddion rhagdalu yn anwirfoddol yng Nghymru a’r Deyrnas Unedig. Ac er gwaethaf y cod ymddygiad gorfodol newydd, gallai pobl sy'n agored i niwed yng Nghymru ddal i gael mesurydd rhagdalu gorfodol wedi'i osod yn eu cartref y gaeaf hwn, am ddim rheswm heblaw nad ydynt yn bodloni'r meini prawf llym ar gyfer eithrio. Yr hyn sy’n hanfodol nawr yw bod y rheoleiddiwr ynni, Ofgem, yn parhau i fonitro’r cod ymarfer, ac yn bwysicach, yn gwneud newidiadau os nad yw pethau’n gweithio.
Mae oddeutu 200,000 o aelwydydd yng Nghymru yn defnyddio mesuryddion rhagdalu ar gyfer eu prif gyflenwad nwy a’u prif gyflenwad trydan, a chyda dyledion ynni ledled Prydain ar y lefelau uchaf erioed, mae perygl i’r nifer honno godi hyd yn oed yn uwch. Nawr, er bod y cap ar brisiau ynni wedi gostwng ym mis Ebrill eleni, mae'n bell o fod yn ddiwedd ar yr argyfwng costau ynni. Mae prisiau ynni'n dal i fod 49 y cant yn uwch nag yr oeddent cyn i'r argyfwng ddechrau. Mae dyledion ynni ar y lefelau uchaf erioed. Mae tlodi o ran tanwydd yng Nghymru—ac mewn rhai achosion, Ddirprwy Lywydd, tlodi eithafol o ran tanwydd—wedi dod yn norm i lawer o aelwydydd incwm isel. Mae’r wers o’r sgandal hon yn glir: ni ddylem ymddiried yn y cyflenwyr i farcio eu gwaith cartref eu hunain. Dylai Llywodraeth y DU a’r rheoleiddiwr, Ofgem, fod wedi gweithredu'n gynt pan ddaeth hyd a lled y sgandal yn amlwg i lawer. Mae'r ffordd y mae cyflenwyr yn trin eu cwsmeriaid agored i niwed yn anghywir, ac fe siapiodd y ffordd y gwnaethant ymddwyn yn ystod sgandal y mesuryddion rhagdalu. Yn ystod tystiolaeth i’r pwyllgor, dyma a ddywedodd prif weithredwr un cyflenwr ynni wrth roi tystiolaeth:
'Rwy'n credu bod problem wirioneddol gennym yn y DU o hyd gyda phobl sy'n gallu talu am eu hynni ond sy'n penderfynu nad ydynt am dalu. A phe baem yn byw mewn cymdeithas lle mae pobl yn gwbl onest a lle na fyddai angen inni gael y ddadl hon, mae'n debyg na fyddem yn y sefyllfa hon. Ond mae'n broblem wirioneddol. Bob dydd, mae gennym filoedd o bobl sy'n penderfynu y byddai'n well ganddynt fynd ar wyliau yn hytrach na thalu am eu hynni, neu flaenoriaethu rhywbeth arall.'
Ddirprwy Lywydd, cefais fy syfrdanu gan y datganiad hwn gan brif weithredwr y cyflenwr penodol hwn. I mi, nid yw'n enghraifft o rywun sy’n rhedeg sefydliad sy’n deall anghenion cwsmeriaid agored i niwed yng Nghymru a’r Deyrnas Unedig.
Edrychaf ymlaen at glywed y ddadl heddiw, ond mae un peth yn amlwg i mi, sef bod mwy y bydd angen ei wneud yn y misoedd a’r blynyddoedd i ddod i sicrhau nad yw Ofgem a'r cyflenwyr ynni'n llusgo'u traed. A bydd angen i bob un ohonom yn y Siambr gynnal y pwysau gwleidyddol sy'n sicrhau nad yw anghenion defnyddwyr agored i niwed yng Nghymru yn cael eu hanghofio yn y rhuthr i wneud miliynau o bunnoedd o elw. Rwy’n ddiolchgar am yr amser, Ddirprwy Lywydd; rwy’n ddiolchgar i aelodau’r pwyllgor hefyd. Edrychaf ymlaen at y ddadl heddiw. Diolch.
I'd like to start by thanking the Petitions Committee Chair, Jack Sargeant, for opening such an important debate and all those who took part in the evidence sessions. I think all Members across this Chamber recognise the complex issues that exist around utility bills and that this is complicated by the application of prepayment meters. Whilst there are households and groups that are particularly vulnerable and need assistance with paying their bills, there are also households and individuals who can adequately afford their electricity and gas bills, who, for one reason or another, choose not to pay them and instead run up high debt.
Whilst this may not seem problematic for some, because their view is that utility companies can easily weather this loss of income, what it actually means is that that loss is pushed on to other bill payers, who end up subsidising those who refuse to pay. Therefore, there is still a need for prepayment meters and, in some cases, the need for prepayment meters to be mandatory.
There is evidence that prepayment meters can be an effective way of helping to manage household budgets, especially for those living in shared accommodation or temporary rented accommodation, because it reduces the administration of setting up new accounts for short periods. But, as we all know, one of the major issues with this and with prepayment meters is that they traditionally, as we’ve heard, then charge a far higher tariff than direct debits.
As such, I’m pleased to see that the UK Government, as of July last year, have now enforced the scrapping of prepayment meter premiums by energy companies, and I think this is a big step forward in promoting a fairer and more just system. I do think, Dirprwy Lywydd, as the report points out, that, despite this, there needs to be a more thorough understanding of an individual’s vulnerability before prepayment meters are installed. I know that utility companies are fully aware of the needs of vulnerable customers and have made considerable efforts to understand vulnerability and put into place services to help meet those needs. However, it was fundamentally wrong of them to involuntarily install meters during a time of huge inflationary pressure from the COVID pandemic and the war in Ukraine, because they were fully aware that many of their customers would have been vulnerable and struggling to pay.
On average, Dirprwy Lywydd, it takes about two years before people facing financial difficulty come forward to seek help. And during this time, they often make poorer financial decisions out of desperation, and this can impact their mental and physical health. We also know that vulnerability can be transient, whereby people are vulnerable for short periods of time, such as after a bereavement or job loss. And therefore, I wholeheartedly believe that we should be making efforts to reduce, and indeed eliminate, the stigma that people can feel with regards to their vulnerability, and there needs to be more awareness of how they can access support.
From a personal perspective, I believe that there is considerable merit in energy companies developing a system that can override prepayment meters in times of vulnerability and supply electricity and gas to customers, such as households with children or elderly people, during cold weather and winter months. And this, in the grand scheme of things, would be unlikely to cost utility companies that much. I would be interested to know whether or not companies have considered that option, because it could benefit a lot of people in Wales.
I’m glad to see that the Government has accepted all of the recommendations of the report either fully or in principle, and I believe that it is right that the utility companies and Ofgem are continually pushed on this issue, because, in truth, it is not an issue that I think will ever go away. We will always have people with these needs in our country.
Finally, I would like to mention recommendation 3, one that I fully support. One of the major issues that vulnerable people face is having to retell their experiences and circumstances to multiple organisations, and it would be a great benefit to both them and the utility providers if they only had to explain the situation once. I understand that water companies have done a considerable amount of work with regards to sharing priority registers and that there have been successful trials between water companies and energy providers in sharing this data. I am also aware, however, that there are limitations in terms of general data protection regulation and data sharing and, of course, in protecting that information from being abused. But, nevertheless, I do believe that this really is the way forward in helping the most vulnerable in our society and I’m glad to see the Welsh Government recognise this, and I would be pleased to see more effort from the Government in pushing for this from companies operating in Wales. Thank you.
Hoffwn ddechrau drwy ddiolch i Gadeirydd y Pwyllgor Deisebau, Jack Sargeant, am agor dadl mor bwysig a phawb a gymerodd ran yn y sesiynau tystiolaeth. Rwy'n credu bod pob Aelod ar draws y Siambr hon yn cydnabod y materion cymhleth sy'n bodoli mewn perthynas â biliau cyfleustodau a bod hyn yn cael ei gymhlethu drwy osod mesuryddion rhagdalu. Er bod yna aelwydydd a grwpiau sy'n arbennig o agored i niwed ac angen cymorth i dalu eu biliau, mae yna hefyd aelwydydd ac unigolion sy'n gallu fforddio eu biliau trydan a nwy yn ddigonol, sydd, am ryw reswm neu'i gilydd, yn dewis peidio â'u talu ac yn hytrach, yn mynd i ddyled fawr.
Er efallai nad yw hyn yn ymddangos yn broblem i rai, oherwydd eu bod o'r farn y gall cwmnïau cyfleustodau oddef colli incwm o'r fath yn hawdd, yr hyn y mae'n ei olygu mewn gwirionedd yw bod y golled honno'n cael ei throsglwyddo ymlaen i dalwyr biliau eraill, sy'n sybsideiddio'r rhai sy'n gwrthod talu. Felly, mae'n dal i fod angen mesuryddion rhagdalu ac mewn rhai achosion, mae'n dal i fod angen i fesuryddion rhagdalu fod yn orfodol.
Ceir tystiolaeth y gall mesuryddion rhagdalu fod yn ffordd effeithiol o helpu i reoli cyllidebau aelwydydd, yn enwedig i'r rhai sy'n byw mewn llety a rennir neu lety rhent dros dro, am ei fod yn lleihau'r gwaith o weinyddu sefydlu cyfrifon newydd am gyfnodau byr. Ond fel y gwyddom i gyd, un o'r prif broblemau gyda hyn a chyda mesuryddion rhagdalu yw eu bod yn draddodiadol, fel y clywsom, yn codi tariff llawer uwch na debyd uniongyrchol.
Felly, rwy'n falch o weld bod Llywodraeth y DU, o fis Gorffennaf y llynedd, wedi gorfodi camau i ddileu premiymau mesuryddion rhagdalu gan gwmnïau ynni, ac rwy'n credu bod hwn yn gam mawr ymlaen tuag at hyrwyddo system decach a mwy cyfiawn. Er hynny, Ddirprwy Lywydd, fel y mae'r adroddiad yn nodi, rwy'n credu bod angen dealltwriaeth fwy trylwyr o fregusrwydd unigolyn cyn gosod mesuryddion rhagdalu. Rwy'n gwybod bod cwmnïau cyfleustodau yn gwbl ymwybodol o anghenion cwsmeriaid agored i niwed ac wedi gwneud ymdrechion sylweddol i ddeall bregusrwydd a rhoi gwasanaethau ar waith i helpu i ddiwallu'r anghenion hynny. Fodd bynnag, roedd gosod mesuryddion anwirfoddol yn ystod cyfnod o bwysau chwyddiant enfawr yn sgil pandemig COVID a'r rhyfel yn Wcráin yn sylfaenol anghywir, oherwydd eu bod yn gwbl ymwybodol y byddai llawer o'u cwsmeriaid wedi bod yn agored i niwed ac yn cael trafferth talu.
Ar gyfartaledd, Ddirprwy Lywydd, mae'n cymryd tua dwy flynedd cyn i bobl sy'n wynebu anhawster ariannol ofyn am gymorth. Ac yn ystod y cyfnod hwn, maent yn aml yn gwneud penderfyniadau ariannol gwaeth mewn anobaith, a gall hyn effeithio ar eu hiechyd meddyliol a chorfforol. Rydym hefyd yn gwybod y gall bregusrwydd fod yn sefyllfa dros dro, lle mae pobl yn agored i niwed am gyfnodau byr, megis ar ôl profedigaeth neu golli swydd. Ac felly, rwy'n credu'n gryf y dylem ymdrechu i leihau, ac yn wir i ddileu'r stigma y gall pobl ei deimlo yn sgil eu bregusrwydd, ac mae angen mwy o ymwybyddiaeth o sut y gallant gael gafael ar gymorth.
O safbwynt personol, credaf fod cryn rinwedd mewn gweld cwmnïau ynni'n datblygu system a all ddiystyru mesuryddion rhagdalu ar adegau o fregusrwydd a chyflenwi trydan a nwy i gwsmeriaid, fel aelwydydd â phlant neu bobl oedrannus, yn ystod tywydd oer a misoedd y gaeaf. A byddai hyn, yn y pen draw, yn annhebygol o gostio cymaint â hynny i gwmnïau cyfleustodau. Hoffwn wybod a yw cwmnïau wedi ystyried yr opsiwn hwnnw ai peidio, oherwydd gallai fod o fudd i lawer o bobl yng Nghymru.
Rwy'n falch o weld bod y Llywodraeth wedi derbyn holl argymhellion yr adroddiad naill ai'n llawn neu mewn egwyddor, a chredaf ei bod yn iawn fod y cwmnïau cyfleustodau ac Ofgem yn cael eu gwthio'n barhaus ar y mater hwn, oherwydd, mewn gwirionedd, nid yw'n fater y credaf y bydd byth yn diflannu. Bydd gennym bob amser bobl sydd â'r anghenion hyn yn ein gwlad.
Yn olaf, hoffwn sôn am argymhelliad 3, un rwy'n ei gefnogi'n llawn. Un o'r prif bethau y mae pobl agored i niwed yn eu hwynebu yw gorfod ailadrodd eu profiadau a'u hamgylchiadau i sawl sefydliad, a byddai o fudd mawr iddynt hwy a'r darparwyr cyfleustodau pe bai ond yn rhaid iddynt esbonio'r sefyllfa un waith. Rwy'n deall bod cwmnïau dŵr wedi gwneud cryn dipyn o waith ar rannu cofrestrau â blaenoriaeth a bod treialon llwyddiannus wedi bod rhwng cwmnïau dŵr a darparwyr ynni ar gyfer rhannu'r data hwn. Rwyf hefyd yn ymwybodol, fodd bynnag, fod cyfyngiadau ynghlwm wrth reoleiddio diogelu data cyffredinol a rhannu data ac wrth gwrs, wrth ddiogelu'r wybodaeth honno rhag cael ei chamddefnyddio. Ond rwy'n credu mai dyma'r ffordd ymlaen serch hynny i helpu'r rhai mwyaf agored i niwed yn ein cymdeithas ac rwy'n falch o weld Llywodraeth Cymru yn cydnabod hyn, a byddwn yn falch o weld mwy o ymdrech gan y Llywodraeth i wthio am hyn gan gwmnïau sy'n gweithredu yng Nghymru. Diolch.
Diolch i'r deisebwyr am ddod â hwn gerbron a diolch i bawb a wnaeth gyfrannu tuag at yr adroddiad, a diolch hefyd i Jack Sargeant, fel Cadeirydd y pwyllgor, am gadw hwn ar yr agenda a gwneud yn siŵr ein bod ni'n dilyn drwodd ar hyn. So, diolch yn fawr i'r rheini.
Thank you to the petitioners for bringing this forward and thank you to everyone who contributed to this report, and thank you also to Jack Sargeant, as committee Chair, for keeping this on the agenda and ensuring that we are following through on this. So, thank you very much.
As a member of the Petitions Committee, I have to say that this is one of the most important items that has come before the committee. Taking evidence for the report was quite alarming, because the deeper you delve into the scandal of forced prepayment meter installations, the more shocking it gets. For example, the committee were alarmed at the upper and lower age limit that prevented a prepayment meter from being fitted. Despite the World Health Organization defining patients as elderly if they are over 65, the code of practice on prepayment meters has deemed that 75 and above is the age limit at which you are not permitted to fit one. Families with preschool children above the age of two can also have a meter installed against their will. That is clearly wrong.
But no matter what the age, people should not be forced into making a decision between heating and eating in twenty-first century Wales. Unfortunately, that is what is happening in many, perhaps even a majority, of the communities that we represent in the Senedd. That is an injustice and a national scandal. Households should be getting more support from both Westminster and Welsh Governments on this matter. With that in mind, and given that the price of energy is still much higher than it was pre-crisis levels, I want to know what the Government of Wales is doing to alleviate the high levels of energy debt. I also want to know how this report will, in tandem with the findings of the Wales expert group report on the cost-of-living crisis, influence the Cabinet Secretary's work. Diolch yn fawr.
Fel aelod o'r Pwyllgor Deisebau, mae'n rhaid imi ddweud mai dyma un o'r eitemau pwysicaf sydd wedi dod ger bron y pwyllgor. Roedd casglu tystiolaeth ar gyfer yr adroddiad yn eithaf brawychus, oherwydd po ddyfnaf yr ymchwiliwch i sgandal mesuryddion rhagdalu gorfodol, y mwyaf brawychus y bydd. Er enghraifft, syfrdanwyd y pwyllgor gan y terfyn oedran uchaf ac isaf a oedd yn atal mesurydd rhagdalu rhag cael ei osod. Er bod Sefydliad Iechyd y Byd yn diffinio cleifion fel rhai oedrannus os ydynt dros 65 oed, mae'r cod ymarfer ar fesuryddion rhagdalu wedi barnu mai 75 a hŷn yw'r terfyn oedran lle na chaniateir i chi osod un. Gall teuluoedd sydd â phlant cyn oed ysgol dros ddwy oed hefyd gael mesurydd wedi'i osod yn erbyn eu hewyllys. Mae hynny'n amlwg yn anghywir.
Ond ni waeth beth yw'r oedran, ni ddylid gorfodi pobl i wneud penderfyniad rhwng gwresogi a bwyta yng Nghymru'r unfed ganrif ar hugain. Yn anffodus, dyna sy'n digwydd mewn llawer, a mwyafrif efallai hyd yn oed, o'r cymunedau yr ydym yn eu cynrychioli yn y Senedd. Mae'n anghyfiawnder ac yn sgandal genedlaethol. Dylai aelwydydd fod yn cael mwy o gefnogaeth gan Lywodraeth San Steffan a Llywodraeth Cymru ar y mater hwn. Gyda hynny mewn golwg, ac o gofio bod pris ynni yn dal i fod yn llawer uwch na chyn yr argyfwng, rwyf am wybod beth mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn ei wneud i wella'r lefelau uchel o ddyled ynni. Rwyf hefyd eisiau gwybod sut y bydd yr adroddiad hwn, ochr yn ochr â chanfyddiadau adroddiad grŵp arbenigol Cymru ar yr argyfwng costau byw, yn dylanwadu ar waith Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet. Diolch yn fawr.
May I thank also the Petitions Committee for bringing this important report to the floor of the Siambr today? I also want to place on record my appreciation to committee Chair Jack Sargeant for his leadership in this critical field—for some, life and death.
The Times undercover investigation into a company used by British Gas to pursue debts led to shock waves around the United Kingdom. It found that British Gas routinely sent debt collectors to literally break into customers' homes, and force-fit pay-as-you-go meters, even when they were known to have extreme and intersectional vulnerabilities. The investigation found that agents were sent in by British Gas to force-fit a meter at the home of a young mother with a four-week-old baby. Her bills had risen sevenfold during the cost-of-living crisis. What a symbolic and bullying institutional act.
As the Chair's foreword notes, having access to heat and light can be a matter of life and death, so I welcome the response of the Welsh Labour Government and Ofgem to this report, which sees them both in principle accepting every single recommendation of the Petitions Committee's report, although Ofgem has been slow to react and there is still much more to be done. The new code of practice for the involuntary installation of prepayment meters is still new, and will need due diligence and an assessment made of its effectivity. Ofgem also has much to do, as it is estimated that only 1,502 people have been awarded compensation, despite over 150,000 installations being assessed by energy companies.
So, Minister, what actions or representations can the Welsh Government make to ensure that debt collection agencies should not be the arbiter of whether a household is vulnerable, that Ofgem monitor the impact of the new code of practice, and consider lowering the age for the do-not-install category from 75 to 65 years, and for the introduction of a social tariff for energy? The backdrop to this British scandal was a devastating cost-of-living crisis, as the owner of British Gas in 2023 announced a record £3 billion of annual profit. Centrica, the owner of British Gas, is a FTSE 100 company that adjusted profits of £3 billion—the highest in its history at this point. Under the rule of the UK Tory Government in Westminster, capitalist giants drown in profit, at the expense of the poorest and most vulnerable members of society. So, the quickest and most definitive way to bring radical change for Welsh households in this field is the election of a new UK Labour Government, come the general election, that prioritises people over profits. Thank you.
A gaf i ddiolch hefyd i'r Pwyllgor Deisebau am ddod â'r adroddiad pwysig hwn i lawr y Siambr heddiw? Rwyf hefyd am gofnodi fy ngwerthfawrogiad i Gadeirydd y pwyllgor, Jack Sargeant, am ei arweinyddiaeth yn y maes hollbwysig hwn—mater o fywyd a marwolaeth i rai.
Arweiniodd ymchwiliad cudd The Times i gwmni a ddefnyddiwyd gan Nwy Prydain i fynd ar drywydd dyledion at siocdonnau ledled y Deyrnas Unedig. Canfu fod Nwy Prydain yn anfon casglwyr dyledion yn rheolaidd, i dorri i mewn yn llythrennol i gartrefi cwsmeriaid, a gosod mesuryddion rhagdalu drwy orfodaeth, hyd yn oed pan oedd yn hysbys fod ganddynt fregusrwydd eithafol a rhyngblethol. Canfu'r ymchwiliad fod asiantau wedi cael eu hanfon i mewn gan Nwy Prydain i osod mesurydd yn orfodol yng nghartref mam ifanc gyda babi pedair wythnos oed. Roedd ei biliau wedi codi saith gwaith drosodd yn ystod yr argyfwng costau byw. Am weithred sefydliadol symbolaidd a bwlïaidd.
Fel mae rhagair y Cadeirydd yn nodi, gall cael mynediad at wres a golau fod yn fater o fywyd a marwolaeth, felly rwy'n croesawu ymateb Llywodraeth Lafur Cymru ac Ofgem i'r adroddiad hwn, lle mae'r ddau sefydliad mewn egwyddor yn derbyn pob argymhelliad o adroddiad y Pwyllgor Deisebau, er bod Ofgem wedi bod yn araf i ymateb ac mae llawer mwy i'w wneud o hyd. Mae'r cod ymarfer newydd ar gyfer gosod mesuryddion rhagdalu yn anwirfoddol yn dal i fod yn newydd, a bydd angen diwydrwydd dyladwy a gwneud asesiad o'i effeithiolrwydd. Mae gan Ofgem lawer i'w wneud hefyd, gan yr amcangyfrifir mai dim ond 1,502 o bobl sydd wedi cael iawndal, er bod dros 150,000 o osodiadau yn cael eu hasesu gan gwmnïau ynni.
Felly, Weinidog, pa gamau neu sylwadau y gall Llywodraeth Cymru eu gwneud i sicrhau nad asiantaethau casglu dyledion sydd i benderfynu a yw aelwyd yn agored i niwed, fod Ofgem yn monitro effaith y cod ymarfer newydd, ac ystyried gostwng yr oedran ar gyfer y categori peidio â gosod o 75 i 65 oed, a chyflwyno tariff cymdeithasol ar gyfer ynni? Cefndir y sgandal Brydeinig hon oedd yr argyfwng costau byw dinistriol, wrth i berchennog Nwy Prydain gyhoeddi £3 biliwn o elw blynyddol uwch nag erioed yn 2023. Mae Centrica, perchennog Nwy Prydain, yn gwmni FTSE 100 a welodd elw a addaswyd o £3 biliwn—yr uchaf yn ei hanes hyd yma. O dan reolaeth Llywodraeth Dorïaidd y DU yn San Steffan, mae cewri cyfalafol yn boddi mewn elw, ar draul aelodau tlotaf a mwyaf bregus cymdeithas. Felly, y ffordd gyflymaf a mwyaf diffiniol o ddod â newid radical i aelwydydd Cymru yn y maes hwn yw ethol Llywodraeth Lafur newydd yn y DU pan ddaw'r etholiad cyffredinol, Llywodraeth Lafur sy'n blaenoriaethu pobl dros elw. Diolch.
Rwy'n falch o gael y cyfle i gyfrannu i'r ddadl hon, achos mae tlodi tanwydd wedi bod yn un o brif feysydd ymchwiliad y Pwyllgor Cydraddoldeb a Chyfiawnder Cymdeithasol rwy'n aelod ohono. Ac fel llefarydd Plaid Cymru ar gyfiawnder cymdeithasol, mae'r modd y mae prisiau uchel tanwydd ac arferion annheg, sydd, yng ngeiriau'r adroddiad, yn destun sgandal, wedi cyfrannu at lefelau ac effaith tlodi a'r argyfwng costau byw wedi bod yn bryder rwyf wedi ei godi'n rheolaidd yn y Senedd. A dwi ddim yn ymddiheuro am ailadrodd unwaith eto yr hyn sy'n rhoi cyd-destun i'r adroddiad yma, achos mae'r sefyllfa yn creu poen meddwl enbyd, caledi annerbyniol, ac yn achosi salwch a marwolaeth yn ddiangen. Mae'n gwbl anghynaliadwy a chywilyddus mewn gwladwriaeth sydd gyda'r mwyaf cyfoethog yn y byd.
Fel y clywon ni, mae tlodi tanwydd wedi cynyddu yng Nghymru ac yn parhau ar lefel argyfyngus o uchel, gan gynnwys 98 y cant o aelwydydd incwm isel, gyda'r biliau ynni yn dal i fod bron 50 y cant yn uwch nag oedden nhw cyn yr argyfwng ynni, ac unrhyw ostyngiad yn y cap ar brisiau wedi ei ddileu'n llwyr gan y cynnydd aruthrol mewn dyled ynni. Yn ôl Ofgem, mae'r dyled ar filiau ynni wedi mwy na dyblu dros y tair blynedd diwethaf, a gan nad yw'r nifer o aelwydydd wedi cynyddu yn yr un modd, mae'n amlwg bod y dyled hwnnw, felly, yn awr hyd yn oed yn ddyfnach.
Ac mae'r darlun yng Nghymru yn dduach, o gofio bod y de a'r gogledd yn y tair uchaf o ran y rhanbarthau drutaf ar gyfer ynni, a'r taliadau sefydlog ar eu lefelau uchaf erioed. Ac, wrth gwrs, mae adroddiad y pwyllgor yn gosod mas y sefyllfa yn gwbl blaen—hynny yw, sut mae arferion y cwmnïau ynni wrth ymdrin â chwsmeriaid bregus sydd yn dioddef o dlodi tanwydd yn gwaethygu'r sefyllfa.
Mae nifer o'r argymhellion yn yr adroddiad, a gyhoeddwyd ym mis Tachwedd y llynedd, yn cyd-fynd â chasgliadau'r grŵp arbenigol ar yr argyfwng costau byw, a gyhoeddwyd nôl ym Medi'r llynedd, a oedd yn gofyn am fesurau brys gan Lywodraeth Cymru a San Steffan i leddfu'r argyfwng economaidd ac annhegwch oedd yn wynebu gormod o bobl Cymru. Roedd y grŵp arbenigol yn galw am bwysau gan y ddwy Lywodraeth ar gwmnïau ynni i sicrhau camau i'w cefnogi, a gweithredu ar yr arferion annheg a gwahaniaethau rhanbarthol.
Mae misoedd lawer, felly, ers cyhoeddi'r ddau set o argymhellion hyn, a miloedd o bobl, yn anffodus, wedi dioddef drwy fisoedd oer y gaeaf rhwng hynny a nawr. Bu hefyd, fel y clywon ni, rai datblygiadau ers hynny o ran y cod ymarfer statudol newydd ynghylch gosod mesuryddion rhagdalu anwirfoddol, a fyddai'n rhan o'r amodau trwyddedu ar gyfer cyflenwyr. Ond mae'n glir bod angen gostwng y nifer o fesuryddion rhagdalu sy'n cael eu defnyddio, ac, i wneud hynny, rhaid mynd i'r afael â lefelau dyled a'r hyn sy'n arwain at i bobl fod yn y fath ddyled yn y lle cyntaf. Allwn ni ddim parhau i weld sefyllfa lle mae lefel a dyfnder y dyled hwn yn arwain at bobl yn gorfod mynd heb ynni hanfodol, ac felly'r modd o gadw'n dwym, yn lân, ac yn medru coginio bwyd.
Nod cynllun Llywodraeth Cymru 'Trechu tlodi tanwydd 2021 i 2035' yw sicrhau bod nifer yr aelwydydd yng Nghymru sy'n byw mewn tlodi tanwydd yn gostwng i 5 y cant erbyn 2035. Mae hynny ond ychydig dros 10 mlynedd i ffwrdd. O gofio'r ffigurau yna yr adroddais i ar ddechrau fy nghyfraniad, mae'n amlwg bod angen gwaith mawr a brys i sicrhau cynnydd. Mae mesur cynnydd yn hanfodol os ydym am gyrraedd y nod, ond er gwaethaf y ffaith bod gan Lywodraeth Cymru rwymedigaeth statudol i osod y targedau interim yn y cynllun, ac er gwaethaf y galwadau gan nifer o bwyllgorau'r Senedd hon i wneud hynny, nid yw Llywodraeth Cymru wedi gweithredu.
Felly, hoffwn ofyn, Weinidog: pryd y bydd y targedau interim hyn yn cael eu gosod? A heb y cerrig milltir, beth sy'n gyrru'r gwaith hanfodol sydd ei angen i fynd i'r afael â'n hargyfwng tlodi tanwydd, a sut ydym ni'n mesur beth sy'n effeithiol? Hoffwn hefyd glywed beth ymhellach mae'r Llywodraeth yn ei wneud i fynd i'r afael â'r lefelau uchel o ddyled ynni ar draws Cymru. Pryd cawn ni ddiweddariad ar waith y rhaglen Cartrefi Clyd newydd er enghraifft? Pa ymrwymiadau sydd wedi cael eu rhoi hefyd gan y Blaid Lafur yn San Steffan i sicrhau diwedd ar y taliadau sefydlog annheg y mae aelwydydd Cymru yn eu hwynebu? Diolch.
I am pleased to have the opportunity to contribute to this debate, because fuel poverty has been one of the main areas of inquiry of the Equality and Social Justice Committee, of which I am a member. And, as Plaid Cymru's spokesperson on social justice, the way in which high fuel prices and unfair practices, which, in the words of the report, are a scandal, have contributed to the levels and impact of poverty and the cost-of-living crisis has been a concern that I have raised regularly in the Senedd. I will not apologise for repeating once again what provides a context for the report, because this is a situation that creates severe mental anguish, unacceptable hardship, and causes unnecessary illness and death. It is completely unsustainable and shameful in a state that is among the wealthiest in the world.
As we heard, fuel poverty has increased in Wales and remains at a critically high level, including 98 per cent of low-income households. Energy bills are still nearly 50 per cent higher than they were before the energy crisis, and any reduction in the cap on energy prices has been completely wiped out by the massive increase in energy debt. According to Ofgem, the debt on energy bills has more than doubled over the last three years, and, as the number of households has not increased in the same way, it is clear that those debt levels are now even deeper.
And the picture in Wales is bleaker, given that the south and the north are in the top three most expensive regions for energy, and given that standing charges are at their highest levels ever. And, of course, the committee's report sets out the extent of the situation very plainly—that is, how the practices of the energy companies when dealing with vulnerable customers who suffer from fuel poverty exacerbate the situation.
Many of the recommendations in the report, published in November last year, are in line with the conclusions of the expert group on the cost-of-living crisis, which were published back in September last year, which called for urgent measures from the Welsh Government and Westminster to alleviate the economic crisis and unfairness facing too many people in Wales. The expert group called for pressure from both Governments on energy companies to ensure action to support them, and action on unfair practices and regional variations.
It has been many months now since these two sets of recommendations were published, and thousands of people, unfortunately, have suffered through the cold winter months between then and now. There have also been, as we heard, some developments since then in terms of the new statutory code of practice regarding the involuntary installation of prepayment meters that would form part of the licensing conditions for suppliers. But it is clear that we need to reduce the number of prepayment meters in use, and, to do that, we need to tackle debt levels and the factors that lead people to be in such debt in the first place. We cannot continue to see a situation where the level and depth of this debt leads to people having to go without essential energy, and, therefore, the means of keeping warm, clean, and being able to cook their food.
The aim of the Welsh Government's plan, ‘Tackling fuel poverty 2021 to 2035', is to ensure that the number of households in Wales living in fuel poverty falls to 5 per cent by 2035. That is just over 10 years away. Bearing in mind the figures that I reported at the beginning of my contribution, it is clear that major and urgent work is needed to ensure progress. Measuring progress is vital if we want to reach the goal, but, despite the fact that the Welsh Government has a statutory obligation to set the interim targets in the plan, and despite the calls from several committees in this Senedd to do so, the Welsh Government has not taken action.
So, I would like to ask, Minister: when will these interim targets be set? And without these milestones, what is driving the critical momentum needed to tackle our fuel poverty crisis, and how do we measure what's effective? I would also like to hear what further action the Government is taking to tackle the high levels of energy debt across Wales. When will we get an update on the work of the new Warm Homes programme, for example? What commitments have been given by the Labour Party in Westminster as well to ensure an end to the unfair standing charges that Welsh households face? Thank you.
I wouldn't say it's a pleasure to take part in this debate, but it's a privilege to be able to speak on this issue. And I commend Climate Cymru and others for bringing forth this really important petition, as well as, as I would call him, the 'superman of fuel poverty', Jack Sargeant, who continues, really, to champion this particular issue. Thank you to you.
We know that this crisis disproportionately impacts our most vulnerable citizens—those in social housing, households with children and the elderly. Alarmingly, Citizens Advice reports a third of Welsh prepayment meter users faced disconnection last year, due to unaffordable top-up costs, with 13 per cent going over a week without essential energy supplies. Forcing prepayment meters without safeguards, therefore, flagrantly violates consumer protections and does not safeguard our most vulnerable and those that we are responsible for. With six suppliers forcing prepayment this year, more must be done to ensure fewer face potential disconnection over debt. I do welcome the Welsh Government, therefore, accepting most recommendations that came out of the committee report, including supporting a vital social tariff for the vulnerable and enhancing advice surgeries, but bolder action is still needed.
There is a pressing need, in collaboration with the UK Government and Ofgem, to implement legally binding legislation, prohibiting all non-consensual meter transfers and the installation of prepayment meters, whether through warrant action or through the transitioning of smart meters, without the say-so of the consumer. Similarly, while Ofgem's introduction of a vulnerability principle and a mandatory code of practice are positive steps, their response to the Petitions Committee sorely lacks detail on those enforcement mechanisms and an oversight to protect our most vulnerable groups beyond Ofgem's narrow criteria. Relying on suppliers' self-governance is absolutely unacceptable, as they have the financial incentives conflicting with robust consumer protection. Additionally, allowing debt collection agencies to conduct initial vulnerability assessments is unacceptable as well. They lack the necessary training and the impartiality to properly evaluate those vulnerabilities. I would welcome comments from the Cabinet Secretary about how you will work with Ofgem to ensure that these robust measures are in place.
But the wider point, raised by my colleague on the ESJ committee, and, as well, by Rhianon Passmore, is how we address the issue of fuel poverty. It is a scourge across the whole of Wales. Around 98 per cent of those people in Wales living in low-income households are struggling. Rural communities, such as my own of Mid and West Wales, are disproportionately affected, suffering from fuel and energy poverty rates far exceeding the national average. And, whilst I do welcome the long-awaited launch of the Warm Homes programme, which Sioned has also touched on, it's a full year later than anticipated. And the current plan to improve only 1,600 properties per year over a seven-year period is absolutely unacceptable. Some of my poor staff have worked out how long that would take to address all fuel-poor homes in Wales. It is 130 years. That will outlive us all. We have to do more and faster.
With the last annual report for Nest showing that insulation accounted for less than 7 per cent of all energy efficiency measures installed, severe questions are raised about the scale and pace of change. To truly make fuel poverty a thing of the past and meet its 2035 targets, the Welsh Government needs to take urgent and aggressive action to accelerate the programme. So, will the Cabinet Secretary outline, to finish, what specific and substantial measures will be taken to accelerate the Warm Homes programme and ensure that it reaches those who need it the most? Diolch yn fawr iawn, Dirprwy Lywydd.
Ni fyddwn yn dweud ei bod yn bleser cymryd rhan yn y ddadl hon, ond mae'n fraint gallu siarad ar y mater hwn. Ac rwy'n cymeradwyo Climate Cymru ac eraill am gyflwyno'r ddeiseb bwysig hon, yn ogystal â'r 'uwch-arwr tlodi tanwydd' fel y byddwn i'n ei alw, Jack Sargeant, sy'n parhau i hyrwyddo'r mater penodol hwn. Diolch yn fawr i chi.
Fe wyddom fod yr argyfwng hwn yn effeithio'n anghymesur ar ein dinasyddion mwyaf agored i niwed—y rhai mewn tai cymdeithasol, cartrefi â phlant a'r henoed. Yn frawychus, mae Cyngor ar Bopeth yn dweud bod traean o ddefnyddwyr mesuryddion rhagdalu Cymru wedi wynebu datgysylltiad y llynedd oherwydd costau atodol anfforddiadwy, gydag 13 y cant yn mynd dros wythnos heb gyflenwad ynni hanfodol. Felly, mae gorfodi mesuryddion rhagdalu heb fesurau diogelu yn amlwg yn torri amddiffyniadau i ddefnyddwyr ac nid yw'n diogelu ein pobl fwyaf bregus a'r rhai yr ydym yn gyfrifol amdanynt. Gyda chwe chyflenwr yn gorfodi rhagdaliad eleni, mae'n rhaid gwneud mwy i sicrhau bod llai yn wynebu datgysylltiad posibl oherwydd dyled. Rwy'n croesawu'r ffaith bod Llywodraeth Cymru, felly, yn derbyn y rhan fwyaf o'r argymhellion a ddaeth o adroddiad y pwyllgor, gan gynnwys cefnogi tariff cymdeithasol hanfodol ar gyfer rhai sy'n agored i niwed a gwella cymorthfeydd cynghori, ond mae angen gweithredu mwy mentrus o hyd.
Mewn cydweithrediad â Llywodraeth y DU ac Ofgem, mae gwir angen gweithredu deddfwriaeth cyfreithiol rwymol, gan wahardd pob newid i fesurydd na chafwyd cydsyniad iddo a gosod mesuryddion rhagdalu, boed drwy warant neu drwy drosglwyddo i fesuryddion deallus heb gydsyniad y defnyddiwr. Yn yr un modd, er bod cyflwyno egwyddor fregusrwydd a chod ymarfer gorfodol gan Ofgem yn gamau cadarnhaol, mae eu hymateb i'r Pwyllgor Deisebau yn brin iawn o fanylion am y mecanweithiau gorfodi hynny a goruchwyliaeth i amddiffyn ein grwpiau mwyaf agored i niwed y tu hwnt i feini prawf cul Ofgem. Mae dibynnu ar hunanreolaeth cyflenwyr yn gwbl annerbyniol, gan fod ganddynt gymhellion ariannol sy'n gwrthdaro â diogelwch cadarn i ddefnyddwyr. Yn ogystal, mae caniatáu i asiantaethau casglu dyledion gynnal asesiadau bregusrwydd cychwynnol yn annerbyniol hefyd. Nid ydynt wedi cael yr hyfforddiant angenrheidiol ac nid ydynt yn ddigon diduedd i werthuso bregusrwydd yn iawn. Byddwn yn croesawu sylwadau gan Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet ynglŷn â sut y byddwch yn gweithio gydag Ofgem i sicrhau bod y mesurau cadarn hyn ar waith.
Ond y pwynt ehangach, a godwyd gan fy nghyd-Aelod ar y Pwyllgor Cydraddoldeb a Chyfiawnder Cymdeithasol, a Rhianon Passmore hefyd, yw sut yr awn i'r afael â phroblem tlodi o ran tanwydd. Mae'n bla ar draws Cymru gyfan. Mae tua 98 y cant o'r bobl yng Nghymru sy'n byw mewn cartrefi incwm isel yn ei chael hi'n anodd. Mae cymunedau gwledig, fel fy un i yng Nghanolbarth a Gorllewin Cymru, yn cael eu heffeithio'n anghymesur, gan eu bod yn dioddef cyfraddau tlodi tanwydd ac ynni sy'n llawer uwch na'r cyfartaledd cenedlaethol. Ac er fy mod yn croesawu lansiad hirddisgwyliedig y rhaglen Cartrefi Clyd, y soniodd Sioned amdani hefyd, mae flwyddyn gyfan yn hwyrach na'r disgwyl. Ac mae'r cynllun presennol i wella 1,600 eiddo y flwyddyn yn unig dros gyfnod o saith mlynedd yn gwbl annerbyniol. Mae rhai o fy staff wedi cyfrif pa mor hir y byddai hynny'n ei gymryd i fynd i'r afael â phob cartref sy'n dlawd o ran tanwydd yng Nghymru. Mae'n 130 o flynyddoedd. Bydd yn dal yno ar ein holau ni i gyd. Mae'n rhaid inni wneud mwy yn gyflymach.
Gyda'r adroddiad blynyddol diwethaf ar gyfer Nyth yn dangos bod inswleiddio yn llai na 7 y cant o'r holl fesurau effeithlonrwydd ynni a osodwyd, mae cwestiynau difrifol i'w gofyn am faint a chyflymder y newid. Er mwyn gwneud tlodi tanwydd yn rhywbeth sy'n perthyn i'r gorffennol a chyrraedd ei thargedau ar gyfer 2035, mae angen i Lywodraeth Cymru roi camau brys ac ymosodol ar waith i gyflymu'r rhaglen. Felly, i orffen, a wnaiff Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet amlinellu pa fesurau penodol a sylweddol a gaiff eu cymryd i gyflymu'r rhaglen Cartrefi Clyd a sicrhau ei bod yn cyrraedd y rhai sydd ei hangen fwyaf? Diolch yn fawr iawn, Ddirprwy Lywydd.
A galwaf ar Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet dros Ddiwylliant a Chyfiawnder Cymdeithasol, Lesley Griffiths.
And I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Culture and Social Justice, Lesley Griffiths.
Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer. And I'd really like to thank members of the Petitions Committee for their report on the prepayment meter scandal in Wales and for the opportunity to speak on behalf of the Government this afternoon. The report made several important recommendations in line with our policy positions and actions in this important area. Our response to the committee's recommendations outlined all the work Welsh Government is doing in this area, including where we do not have devolved powers, where we continue to raise our concerns with the UK Government.
Diolch yn fawr iawn, Ddirprwy Lywydd. A hoffwn ddiolch yn fawr iawn i aelodau'r Pwyllgor Deisebau am eu hadroddiad ar y sgandal mesuryddion rhagdalu yng Nghymru ac am y cyfle i siarad ar ran y Llywodraeth y prynhawn yma. Gwnaeth yr adroddiad sawl argymhelliad pwysig yn unol â'n safbwyntiau polisi a'n camau gweithredu yn y maes pwysig hwn. Roedd ein hymateb i argymhellion y pwyllgor yn amlinellu'r holl waith y mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn ei wneud yn y maes hwn, gan gynnwys lle nad oes gennym bwerau datganoledig, lle rydym yn parhau i ddwyn ein pryderon i sylw Llywodraeth y DU.
The Welsh Government did raise concerns about the prepayment system and the fact it was failing the most vulnerable people in society before the scandal broke in early 2023. My predecessor, the Minister for Social Justice and Chief Whip, Jane Hutt, wrote to suppliers in November 2022 and gained assurances on the support that they would give households in Wales during the winter of 2022-23. However, despite those assurances, we all witnessed shocking reports of debt collectors breaking into homes to force-fit prepayment meters. A self-imposed ban followed, and Ofgem introduced a voluntary code of practice. I'm pleased that Ofgem accepted our call to make its voluntary code of practice a mandatory part of the supply licence. Breaches of the code can now lead to enforcement action and fines. It is vital that eligible householders are protected. The new code is a welcome step to provide better safeguards for the most vulnerable households in our society. I'm pleased that Ofgem engaged with a variety of stakeholders in developing this code. We fully expect Ofgem to monitor suppliers' compliance with the vulnerability checks and whether the new rules go far enough to protect those most in need.
Several Members this afternoon have mentioned Ofgem, and I've today written to the chair of Ofgem, asking him to ensure the new rules are implemented effectively. I want to have an early meeting with them. There are other things that need discussion with Ofgem, I think, which, again, Members have alluded to. One of the concerns for me is around standing charges. There's also the call for the social tariff. So, I think there's a huge amount of work that we need to do as a Government with Ofgem.
Welsh Government will continue to keep a close eye on the situation, to ensure we do not see a repeat of the devastating impact of the forced installation of prepayment meters on our vulnerable households. I know Members will also be watching very closely. With the practice of forcibly installing prepayment meters resuming, I'm pleased to see the Petitions Committee report recommending actions in line with Welsh Government's policy positions and actions.
I think it's worth reiterating the point that, again, many Members have said this afternoon, that prepayment customers are usually among the most vulnerable in our society. We must ensure that there are safeguards in place to protect them, and that those safeguards are adhered to. We've long called for a social tariff to be introduced, which would provide an additional way to fairly protect the worst off. The Chancellor made a commitment in November 2022 to develop a new approach to consumer protection by April 2024, yet we know no such action has been taken. This is deeply frustrating and has meant that vulnerable households have now had to endure two difficult winters with soaring energy costs since the commitment was made.
In these last two years, however, the Welsh Government did not stand idly by. Free, impartial advice was available to all householders via our Warm Homes programme Nest scheme, and we actively signposted the Nest advice service through the 'Here to help with the cost of living' campaign last winter. Our Climate Action Wales website contains advice on home energy use and our recently launched new Nest Warm Homes programme will continue to offer free energy-savings advice to all households. Since June 2022, we've allocated nearly £4.5 million of funding to the Fuel Bank Foundation to support eligible households that prepay for their fuel and are at risk of disconnection. Our discretionary assistance fund has supported over 210,000 individuals with over £28.9 million-worth of grants since last April. That includes over £16 million in cash payments to support financially vulnerable individuals and families with basic living costs such as food, gas and electricity. Our new Nest Warm Homes scheme provides continuity of support to fuel poor households.
We want to see energy suppliers supporting their customers who are struggling, not forcing entry. It is important for households in energy debt to contact their energy suppliers at the earliest opportunity. By engaging early, suppliers and customers can agree an affordable repayment plan to avoid reaching the point of involuntary prepayment meters being fitted. Where enforcement action is appropriate, we want to ensure that everyone experiencing such action is treated fairly and is protected from poor practice. I can assure Members that I will continue to press for actions that deliver this.
I am aware that Ofgem does not regulate debt collection agencies, but it is important that it encourages suppliers to use authorised debt collection agencies and accredited agents. Welsh Government has been calling for energy suppliers to use only Enforcement Conduct Board-accredited agents. We believe that having accredited debt collection strengthens the protection available to our prepayment customers. This is of particular importance now that energy suppliers can resume the practice of installing prepayment meters by force, albeit under the newly mandated code of practice. Welsh Government continues to have a role to play in supporting vulnerable households, and, as the Petitions Committee has demonstrated, we all want to achieve the same outcome: protecting the lives and well-being of our most vulnerable households. Diolch.
Fe wnaeth Llywodraeth Cymru godi pryderon am y system ragdalu a'r ffaith ei bod yn gwneud cam â'r bobl fwyaf bregus mewn cymdeithas cyn i'r sgandal dorri yn gynnar yn 2023. Ysgrifennodd fy rhagflaenydd, y Gweinidog Cyfiawnder Cymdeithasol a'r Prif Chwip, Jane Hutt, at gyflenwyr ym mis Tachwedd 2022 a chael sicrwydd ynglŷn â'r gefnogaeth y byddent yn ei rhoi i aelwydydd yng Nghymru yn ystod gaeaf 2022-23. Fodd bynnag, er gwaethaf y sicrwydd hwnnw, gwelsom i gyd adroddiadau brawychus am gasglwyr dyledion yn torri i mewn i gartrefi i osod mesuryddion rhagdalu drwy orfodaeth. Dilynwyd hyn gan waharddiad hunanosodedig, a chyflwynodd Ofgem god ymarfer gwirfoddol. Rwy'n falch fod Ofgem wedi derbyn ein galwad i wneud ei god ymarfer gwirfoddol yn rhan orfodol o'r drwydded gyflenwi. Bellach, gall torri'r cod arwain at gamau gorfodi a dirwyon. Mae'n hanfodol fod deiliaid tai cymwys yn cael eu diogelu. Mae'r cod newydd yn gam i'w groesawu tuag at ddarparu gwell mesurau diogelu ar gyfer yr aelwydydd mwyaf agored i niwed yn ein cymdeithas. Rwy'n falch fod Ofgem wedi ymgysylltu ag amrywiaeth o randdeiliaid wrth ddatblygu'r cod hwn. Rydym yn disgwyl i Ofgem fonitro cydymffurfiaeth cyflenwyr â'r gwiriadau bregusrwydd ac i weld a yw'r rheolau newydd yn mynd yn ddigon pell i ddiogelu'r rhai mwyaf anghenus.
Mae sawl Aelod y prynhawn yma wedi sôn am Ofgem, ac rwyf wedi ysgrifennu at gadeirydd Ofgem heddiw, yn gofyn iddo sicrhau bod y rheolau newydd yn cael eu gweithredu'n effeithiol. Rwyf am gael cyfarfod cynnar gyda nhw. Mae yna bethau eraill sydd angen eu trafod gydag Ofgem, ac mae'r Aelodau wedi cyfeirio at y rheini hefyd. Un o'r pryderon i mi yw taliadau sefydlog. Mae yna alwad hefyd am y tariff cymdeithasol. Felly, rwy'n credu bod llawer iawn o waith y mae angen i ni ei wneud fel Llywodraeth gydag Ofgem.
Bydd Llywodraeth Cymru yn parhau i gadw llygad barcud ar y sefyllfa, er mwyn sicrhau nad ydym yn gweld ailadrodd effaith ddinistriol gosod mesuryddion rhagdalu gorfodol ar ein haelwydydd bregus. Rwy'n gwybod y bydd yr Aelodau'n gwylio'n agos iawn hefyd. Gyda'r arfer o osod mesuryddion rhagdalu yn orfodol yn ailddechrau, rwy'n falch o weld adroddiad y Pwyllgor Deisebau yn argymell camau gweithredu yn unol â safbwyntiau polisi a chamau gweithredu Llywodraeth Cymru.
Rwy'n credu ei bod yn werth ailadrodd y pwynt, unwaith eto, fod llawer o Aelodau wedi dweud y prynhawn yma, fod cwsmeriaid rhagdalu fel arfer ymhlith y rhai mwyaf agored i niwed yn ein cymdeithas. Mae'n rhaid inni sicrhau bod mesurau diogelu ar waith i'w gwarchod, a bod cydymffurfiaeth â'r mesurau diogelu hynny. Rydym wedi galw ers tro am gyflwyno tariff cymdeithasol, a fyddai'n ffordd ychwanegol o ddiogelu'r bobl dlotaf. Fe wnaeth y Canghellor ymrwymiad ym mis Tachwedd 2022 i ddatblygu dull newydd o amddiffyn defnyddwyr erbyn mis Ebrill 2024, ac eto rydym yn gwybod na chymerwyd camau o'r fath. Mae hyn yn rhwystredig iawn ac mae wedi golygu bod aelwydydd bregus bellach wedi gorfod dioddef dau aeaf anodd gyda chostau ynni uchel iawn ers i'r ymrwymiad gael ei wneud.
Yn ystod y ddwy flynedd ddiwethaf fodd bynnag, ni fu Llywodraeth Cymru'n segur. Roedd cyngor diduedd am ddim ar gael i bob deiliad tŷ drwy gynllun Nyth ein rhaglen Cartrefi Clyd, ac fe wnaethom fynd ati i gyfeirio'n weithredol at wasanaeth cynghori Nyth drwy'r ymgyrch 'Yma i helpu gyda chostau byw' y gaeaf diwethaf. Mae ein gwefan Gweithredu ar Newid Hinsawdd yn cynnwys cyngor ar y defnydd o ynni yn y cartref a bydd ein rhaglen Cartrefi Clyd Nyth newydd a lansiwyd yn ddiweddar yn parhau i gynnig cyngor arbed ynni am ddim i bob aelwyd. Ers mis Mehefin 2022, rydym wedi dyrannu bron i £4.5 miliwn o gyllid i'r Sefydliad Banc Tanwydd i gefnogi aelwydydd cymwys sy'n rhagdalu am eu tanwydd ac sydd mewn perygl o gael eu datgysylltu. Mae ein cronfa cymorth dewisol wedi cefnogi dros 210,000 o unigolion gyda gwerth dros £28.9 miliwn o grantiau ers mis Ebrill diwethaf. Mae hynny'n cynnwys dros £16 miliwn mewn taliadau arian parod i gefnogi unigolion a theuluoedd sy'n fregus yn ariannol gyda chostau byw sylfaenol fel bwyd, nwy a thrydan. Mae ein cynllun Cartrefi Clyd Nyth newydd yn darparu cefnogaeth barhaol i aelwydydd tlawd o ran tanwydd.
Rydym am weld cyflenwyr ynni yn cefnogi eu cwsmeriaid sy'n ei chael hi'n anodd, nid gorfodi mynediad. Mae'n bwysig i aelwydydd sydd mewn dyled ynni gysylltu â'u cyflenwyr ynni cyn gynted â phosibl. Drwy ymgysylltu'n gynnar, gall cyflenwyr a chwsmeriaid gytuno ar gynllun ad-dalu fforddiadwy i osgoi cyrraedd pwynt lle caiff mesuryddion rhagdalu eu gosod yn anwirfoddol. Pan fo camau gorfodi'n briodol, rydym am sicrhau bod pawb sy'n profi camau o'r fath yn cael eu trin yn deg a'u bod yn cael eu hamddiffyn rhag arferion gwael. Gallaf sicrhau'r Aelodau y byddaf yn parhau i bwyso am gamau gweithredu sy'n cyflawni hyn.
Rwy'n ymwybodol nad yw Ofgem yn rheoleiddio asiantaethau casglu dyledion, ond mae'n bwysig ei fod yn annog cyflenwyr i ddefnyddio asiantaethau casglu dyledion awdurdodedig ac asiantau achrededig. Mae Llywodraeth Cymru wedi bod yn galw ar gyflenwyr ynni i ddefnyddio asiantau sydd wedi'u hachredu gan y Bwrdd Ymddygiad Gorfodi yn unig. Credwn fod cael trefn gasglu dyledion achrededig yn cryfhau'r amddiffyniad sydd ar gael i'n cwsmeriaid rhagdalu. Mae hyn yn arbennig o bwysig gan y gall cyflenwyr ynni ailddechrau'r arfer o osod mesuryddion rhagdalu yn orfodol bellach, o dan y cod ymarfer sydd newydd gael ei fandadu. Mae gan Lywodraeth Cymru rôl i'w chwarae o hyd yn cefnogi aelwydydd bregus, ac fel y mae'r Pwyllgor Deisebau wedi dangos, rydym i gyd eisiau cyflawni'r un canlyniad: diogelu bywydau a llesiant ein haelwydydd mwyaf agored i niwed. Diolch.
A galwaf ar Jack Sargeant i ymateb i'r ddadl.
And I call on Jack Sargeant to reply to the debate.
Diolch yn fawr, Presiding Officer. Presiding Officer, I was very proud to bring forward this report and its recommendations to the Senedd and to the Welsh Government, and I was proud of the work fellow committee members did on this important report. As Jane Dodds said, this was all about protecting the most vulnerable people who we represent in our society, and it's important to do that. I'm grateful for the Cabinet Secretary's response this afternoon, but I think I should place on record the committee's thanks to your predecessor, Jane Hutt, the Minister for Social Justice in the previous administration, who was a champion on these matters and responded the way you did to the report.
The Cabinet Secretary today outlined that the recommendations are in line with Welsh Government policy positions, and it was really good to hear that you have written to Ofgem to request an early meeting with the chair and the executive team there, particularly around standing charges, which I know are of interest to many. Sioned Williams and I, on the day this report was published, questioned Ofgem in the cross-party group led by Mark Isherwood on that matter. I think the area, again, of recommitting towards a social tariff is one that is important to this Senedd, which we are pleased about, and then your comments on the debt collectors. I think, as I said in my opening contribution, energy suppliers or debt collectors shouldn't be able to mark their own homework, and the ECB accreditation is vital to that.
Presiding Officer, touching on the thoughts of Joel James, who offered a good contribution throughout the debate and certainly this afternoon, where he did note the scrapping of the prepayment premium, which is, of course, welcome. But, again, he spoke about the need for further understanding of what vulnerability is before installing. Peredur Owen Griffiths quite rightly mentioned, as others did, the difference in vulnerability between Ofgem's definition and the WHO's definition, which is quite surprising. One says 75 years and above, one says 65 years and above. There's quite a significant difference there, and not limited to that.
Peredur Owen Griffiths also said that we shouldn't go through the choice of heating or eating, but as Rhianon Passmore pointed out, the debate in the last couple of years moved past that. It moved towards life and death as well as having that very real impact everyday for our constituents. Rhianon Passmore mentioned in her contribution about compensation, where there is a number of people who have been forced onto prepayment meters during this scandal who still haven't received the compensation promised. This Senedd and this Welsh Government should hold Ofgem and the UK Government to account for that.
Again, Members pointed out that this isn't the only committee report. There are other working groups, there are other committees doing important work on fuel poverty, again, to protect the most vulnerable residents that we represent.
I'll touch on Jane Dodds's comments around legally binding Ofgem. Presiding Officer, if you'll allow me to be away from my Chair's role at the moment and speak personally, I actually agree with Jane Dodds on that idea. It's something that needs to be strengthened, certainly.
The Cabinet Secretary said to us that they, the Welsh Government, wrote to Ofgem and energy suppliers before this scandal occurred, because they recognised it was going in the way that it was. But Ofgem were caught red-handed, as Rhianon Passmore pointed out, by The Times scandal. That should never have been the case, they should have recognised the signs that we were all, I think, in this Chamber alerting them to, and others.
Presiding Officer, in closing, I'll say thanks again to those who submitted evidence to this committee. I'll say thanks to my clerking team, who provided great assistance with this report. But just to say, Presiding Officer, we all, in this Chamber, must never forget what happened during the prepayment meter scandal in the last few years. It should never have happened, and we can never let it happen again. It will take us all being vigilant to ensure that energy suppliers, who make these multimillion-pound profits, protect and work for the people of the United Kingdom and Wales. Diolch.
Diolch yn fawr. Lywydd, roeddwn yn falch iawn o gyflwyno'r adroddiad hwn a'i argymhellion i'r Senedd ac i Lywodraeth Cymru, ac roeddwn yn falch o'r gwaith a wnaeth cyd-aelodau'r pwyllgor ar yr adroddiad pwysig hwn. Fel y dywedodd Jane Dodds, roedd hyn i gyd yn ymwneud ag amddiffyn y bobl fwyaf bregus a gynrychiolwn yn ein cymdeithas, ac mae'n bwysig gwneud hynny. Rwy'n ddiolchgar am ymateb Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet y prynhawn yma, ond rwy'n credu y dylwn gofnodi diolch y pwyllgor i'ch rhagflaenydd, Jane Hutt, y Gweinidog Cyfiawnder Cymdeithasol yn y weinyddiaeth flaenorol, a hyrwyddodd y materion hyn ac a ymatebodd yn y ffordd y gwnaethoch chi i'r adroddiad.
Heddiw, nododd Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet fod yr argymhellion yn cyd-fynd â safbwyntiau polisi Llywodraeth Cymru, ac roedd yn dda iawn clywed eich bod wedi ysgrifennu at Ofgem i ofyn am gyfarfod cynnar gyda'r cadeirydd a'r tîm gweithredol yno, yn enwedig ynghylch taliadau sefydlog, y gwn eu bod o ddiddordeb i lawer. Ar y diwrnod y cyhoeddwyd yr adroddiad hwn, fe wnaeth Sioned Williams a minnau holi Ofgem ynghylch y mater hwnnw yn y grŵp trawsbleidiol dan arweiniad Mark Isherwood. Rwy'n credu, unwaith eto, fod mater ymrwymo i dariff cymdeithasol yn un sy'n bwysig i'r Senedd hon, ac rydym yn falch o hynny, a'ch sylwadau ar y casglwyr dyledion. Fel y dywedais yn fy nghyfraniad agoriadol, rwy'n credu na ddylai cyflenwyr ynni na chasglwyr dyledion allu marcio eu gwaith cartref eu hunain, ac mae achrediad y Bwrdd Ymddygiad Gorfodi yn allweddol i hynny.
Lywydd, os caf grybwyll meddyliau Joel James, a gynigiodd gyfraniad da drwy gydol y ddadl ac yn sicr y prynhawn yma, lle nododd fod y premiwm rhagdalu wedi'i ddileu ac mae hynny i'w groesawu wrth gwrs. Ond unwaith eto, soniodd am yr angen am ddealltwriaeth bellach o'r hyn yw bregusrwydd cyn gosod. Soniodd Peredur Owen Griffiths yn gwbl briodol, fel y gwnaeth eraill, am y gwahaniaeth rhwng diffiniad Ofgem a diffiniad Sefydliad Iechyd y Byd o fregusrwydd, sy'n eithaf syfrdanol. Mae un yn dweud 75 oed a hŷn, mae un yn dweud 65 oed a hŷn. Mae gwahaniaeth sylweddol yno, ac nid yw'n gyfyngedig i hynny.
Dywedodd Peredur Owen Griffiths hefyd na ddylem orfod dewis rhwng gwresogi neu fwyta, ond fel y nododd Rhianon Passmore, symudodd y ddadl heibio i hynny yn ystod y blynyddoedd diwethaf. Symudodd tuag at fywyd a marwolaeth yn ogystal â chael effaith real bob dydd ar ein hetholwyr. Soniodd Rhianon Passmore yn ei chyfraniad am iawndal, lle mae nifer o bobl sydd wedi cael eu gorfodi i dderbyn mesuryddion rhagdalu yn ystod y sgandal hon heb gael yr iawndal a addawyd. Dylai'r Senedd hon a Llywodraeth Cymru ddwyn Ofgem a Llywodraeth y DU i gyfrif am hynny.
Unwaith eto, nododd Aelodau nad hwn yw'r unig adroddiad pwyllgor. Mae gweithgorau eraill, mae pwyllgorau eraill yn gwneud gwaith pwysig ar dlodi o ran tanwydd, unwaith eto er mwyn diogelu'r trigolion mwyaf agored i niwed a gynrychiolir gennym.
Fe soniaf am sylwadau Jane Dodds ynghylch Ofgem sy'n gyfreithiol rwymol. Lywydd, os caniatewch imi gefnu ar fy rôl fel Cadeirydd am eiliad a siarad yn bersonol, rwy'n cytuno â Jane Dodds ynghylch y syniad hwnnw. Mae'n rhywbeth y mae angen ei gryfhau, yn sicr.
Dywedodd Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet wrthym eu bod nhw, Llywodraeth Cymru, wedi ysgrifennu at Ofgem a chyflenwyr ynni cyn i'r sgandal hon ddigwydd, oherwydd eu bod yn sylweddoli mai dyma'r ffordd yr oedd pethau'n mynd. Ond cafodd Ofgem eu dal gan sgandal The Times, fel y nododd Rhianon Passmore. Ni ddylai hynny fod wedi digwydd, dylent fod wedi gweld yr arwyddion yr oeddem ni yn y Siambr hon ac eraill wedi eu rhybuddio yn eu cylch.
Lywydd, wrth orffen, rwyf am ddiolch eto i'r rhai a gyflwynodd dystiolaeth i'r pwyllgor hwn. Rwyf am ddiolch i fy nhîm clercio, a roddodd gymorth mawr gyda'r adroddiad hwn. Ac os caf ddweud, Lywydd, mae angen i bawb ohonom yn y Siambr hon gofio'r hyn a ddigwyddodd yn ystod y sgandal mesuryddion rhagdalu yn ystod yr ychydig flynyddoedd diwethaf. Ni ddylai fod wedi digwydd, ac ni allwn adael iddo ddigwydd eto. Bydd angen i bob un ohonom fod yn wyliadwrus er mwyn sicrhau bod cyflenwyr ynni, sy'n gwneud yr elw gwerth miliynau o bunnoedd hyn, yn diogelu ac yn gweithio ar ran pobl y Deyrnas Unedig a Chymru. Diolch.
Y cwestiwn yw: a ddylid nodi adroddiad y pwyllgor? A oes unrhyw Aelod yn gwrthwynebu? Nac oes. Felly, derbynnig y cynnig yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 12.36.
The proposal is to note the committee's report. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.
Derbyniwyd y cynnig yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 12.36.
Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.
Detholwyd y gwelliannau canlynol: gwelliant 1 yn enw Jane Hutt, a gwelliant 2 yn enw Heledd Fychan.
The following amendments have been selected: amendment 1 in the name of Jane Hutt, and amendment 2 in the name of Heledd Fychan.
Eitem 6 heddiw yw dadl y Ceidwadwyr Cymreig ar adolygiad Cass. Galwaf ar Laura Anne Jones i wneud y cynnig.
Item 6 this afternoon is the Welsh Conservatives debate on the Cass review. I call on Laura Anne Jones to move the motion.
Cynnig NDM8563 Darren Millar
Cynnig bod y Senedd:
1. Yn nodi'r adolygiad Cass a gomisiynwyd gan GIG Lloegr i wneud argymhellion ar sut i wella gwasanaethau hunaniaeth rhywedd y GIG, a dynnodd sylw at y ffaith y dylid bod yn ofalus iawn wrth ragnodi meddyginiaethau atal y glasoed a hormonau i bobl ifanc o dan 18 oed oherwydd diffyg ymchwil o ansawdd uchel i'w heffeithiau tymor hir.
2. Yn croesawu'r ffaith, oherwydd bod GIG Lloegr yn atal meddyginiaethau atal y glasoed, fod hyn wedi golygu nad oes llwybr i bobl ifanc o dan 18 oed yng Nghymru gael meddyginiaethau atal y glasoed.
3. Yn galw ar Lywodraeth Cymru i:
a) mabwysiadu argymhellion adolygiad Cass; a
b) sicrhau bod plant a'u rhieni yn cael eu cefnogi gyda chanllawiau synnwyr cyffredin, sy'n seiliedig ar ffeithiau.
Motion NDM8563 Darren Millar
To propose that the Senedd:
1. Notes the Cass review commissioned by NHS England to make recommendations on how to improve NHS gender identity services, which highlighted that there should be extreme caution in prescribing puberty blockers and hormones to under-18s due to a lack of high-quality research into their long-term effects.
2. Welcomes the fact that due to NHS England stopping puberty blockers, this has resulted in there being no pathway for under-18s in Wales to receive puberty blockers.
3. Calls on the Welsh Government to:
a) adopt the recommendations of the Cass review; and
b) ensure that children and their parents are supported with common sense, fact-based guidance.
Cynigiwyd y cynnig.
Motion moved.
Diolch, Deputy Presiding Officer. I'd first like to start by thanking my party for tabling this important debate today, and I move our motion in the name of Darren Millar.
It is appalling, really, that, following two weeks of asking for a full statement to this Chamber and having those requests rejected by this Government, as well as having a topical question refused, despite the weight of the Cass review's findings, this Welsh Labour Government continued to bury their heads in the sand in the name of ideology. It has now taken the Welsh Conservatives tabling a debate today, Deputy Presiding Officer, to force the Welsh Government into finally giving us a full statement and, I hope, a commitment to reviewing its policies and plans in light of the findings of the landmark report by Dr Cass, which found that NHS gender care for children has been based on weak evidence.
We all have a duty to protect the health and well-being of all children and young people in Wales, and as a mother, I, for one, take that responsibility very seriously. This is why it's so vital to debate this today and for the Government to actually take action. This is not about political point scoring or culture wars—I find that extremely disappointing and a weak reaction to the importance of discussing those who are often more vulnerable than, maybe, ourselves. It is inherent upon us to take this responsibility and not play games with it.
The Cass review into NHS England's gender identity services for children and young people was published last month. It concluded that children who are confused about their gender have been let down by a lack of research and evidence. Research carried out by the University of York carried out alongside the report found evidence to be severely lacking on the impact of puberty blockers and hormone treatments, while the majority of clinical guidelines were found not to have followed international standards.
As I have said before in this Chamber, I first flagged my initial concerns over the Cass review when we were privy to the interim report, but sadly, that fell on deaf ears. We called for a Wales-specific review, yet this Government has ploughed on with its ideological path and decided to do nothing. Then came the release of Dr Cass's final report, the outcome of which has turned heads and shaken some institutions to the core. It is important to keep reiterating that these findings are hugely significant for Wales, as well as England, as this Government is fully aware.
The end of our gender pathways in Wales, as you know, end in England, under the control of both NHS England and NHS Wales, under both the UK and Welsh Governments, the only difference being that the UK Government have held a debate and statement on this and taken firm action already to protect children and young people. It is essential that every child struggling with gender dysphoria has access to the right treatment and safe treatment.
Back in 2009, very few people would've even heard of gender identity, and even fewer would've known that the Welsh health service had started making referrals to the NHS gender identity development service in England, located at the now famous—for all the wrong reasons—Tavistock, which was the only specialist gender clinic for young people in Wales and England. Nine thousand young patients received treatment at the now-shut service. An investigation by a Welsh media outlet revealed that 230 people from Wales who received treatment there could be recommended to take part in the study of the long-term outcomes for patients receiving gender care at such a young age. I would love to hear more detail from the Government on this today.
In 2009, the trust received fewer than 60 referrals for children and young people from across England and Wales, but demand surged, and by 2022, more than 5,000 children and young people were being referred to gender identity clinics that had sprung up across England. What was happening? Where was the demand coming from? Why were three quarters of these referrals female? Why were so many children? For years, parents, teachers, clinicians, women's rights groups and others in the UK have campaigned to ask these questions and more.
In Wales, they were often silenced—professionals and parents alike told that their fears were baseless, bigoted and even hateful. The Welsh Government brushed off concerns and embedded these principles in their own official plans and school curriculum. Thanks to the work of groups like Merched Cymru, we now see the effect in Wales. There have been children started on a journey of changing their gender in schools without parental consent, and this is still happening in schools in Wales today. Thanks to this Cass review, we now have clear answers to the questions that have been asked for many years, and it's now time for policy makers to respond.
The 398-page report highlights the dangers of prescribing untreated and irreversible puberty blockers to young people. The report found that healthcare professionals have not asked the right questions; they have instead sought to propagate dangerous political ideology at the cost of safeguarding and evidence, which flies in the face of alleviating psychological anguish, which is what we all should want to achieve. It concludes that there's clearly been significant failing in our healthcare services to protect the most vulnerable of patients.
The Cass review also warns against teachers making premature and what amount to be clinical decisions about the children whom they are supposed to be safeguarding. It is clear in its findings that social transitioning in schools is a precursor to irreversible medical intervention, yet here in Wales an affirmative approach to gender dysphoria is woven through the Welsh Government's own compulsory relationships and sexuality education code and guidance.
So, what needs to happen? Firstly, in schools, the UK Government is developing its own transgender guidance, and will now take into consideration these most recent findings. I urge the Welsh Government to withdraw its own guidance for schools immediately and carry out a review of it. Compulsory relevant elements of the RSE curriculum on gender and gender identity must also be withdrawn by this Government for review. Likewise, schools in Wales must be directed to carry out an urgent review of materials, activities and policies relevant to RSE and guidance for transgender pupils; it has to be the right guidance. We must ensure that children and their parents are supported with commonsense, fact-based guidance, as our motion calls for.
When it comes to health, NHS England have also made the landmark decision to stop routine prescription of puberty blockers to children with gender dysphoria. It announced that it would also be stopping under-18s from accessing adult gender services and has called for urgent review of clinical policy for cross-sex hormones. The Scottish Government have announced a pause on puberty blockers for children. Both are happening with immediate effect and without delay. Now it is your turn, Welsh Government, although I won't hold my breath, because your amendment deletes everything and only notes, with no actions visible at all, which is shameful, because the people of Wales want action on this. NHS Wales must carry out an immediate review, as is called for in point 4 of our motion.
Thirdly, the Welsh Government has made a commitment to consider options for the development of a service for young people in Wales in its LGBTQ+ action plan, launched in February 2023. I've heard from colleagues, professionals and parents across Wales who are deeply concerned by such a commitment to expand the gender service for adults, which, concerningly, fell outside this Cass review for NHS England, and we'd like to know, on these benches, what the Welsh Government plans to do about that to safeguard those people. Also, there are concerns around developing the service for under-18s. To do so now, in the light of the Cass review, would be irresponsible, particularly without a drastic change in tack by this Government.
This Government's LGBTQ+ action plan clearly needs to be reviewed, and this Senedd requires timelines on this. The response of the Welsh Government so far has been muted to the point of silence. What are you afraid of? You must act on this. This is a national scandal unfolding before us. The Cass commission has just one thing at its heart: to develop youngsters to thrive and achieve their ambitions. All children and young people deserve nothing less. The teachers, parents—
Diolch, Ddirprwy Lywydd. Hoffwn ddechrau drwy ddiolch i fy mhlaid am gyflwyno'r ddadl bwysig hon heddiw, ac rwy'n gwneud ein cynnig yn enw Darren Millar.
Mae'n warthus, mewn gwirionedd, yn dilyn pythefnos o ofyn am ddatganiad llawn i'r Siambr hon a chael y ceisiadau hynny wedi eu gwrthod gan y Llywodraeth, yn ogystal â chael cwestiwn amserol wedi'i wrthod, er gwaethaf pwysau canfyddiadau adolygiad Cass, parhaodd y Llywodraeth Lafur Cymru i gladdu eu pennau yn y tywod yn enw ideoleg. Bu'n rhaid i'r Ceidwadwyr Cymreig gyflwyno dadl heddiw, Ddirprwy Lywydd, er mwyn gorfodi Llywodraeth Cymru i roi datganiad llawn i ni o'r diwedd ac ymrwymiad, gobeithio, i adolygu ei pholisïau a'i chynlluniau yng ngoleuni canfyddiadau'r adroddiad pwysig gan Dr Cass, a ganfu fod gofal rhywedd y GIG i blant wedi bod yn seiliedig ar dystiolaeth wan.
Mae gan bob un ohonom ddyletswydd i ddiogelu iechyd a lles pob plentyn a pherson ifanc yng Nghymru, ac fel mam, rwyf i, yn un, o ddifrif ynghylch y cyfrifoldeb hwnnw. Dyna pam ei bod mor hanfodol trafod hyn heddiw a bod y Llywodraeth yn gweithredu. Nid yw hyn yn ymwneud â sgorio pwyntiau gwleidyddol na rhyfeloedd diwylliant—rwy'n gweld hwnnw'n ymateb hynod siomedig a gwan i bwysigrwydd trafod y rhai sy'n aml yn fwy agored i niwed na ni ein hunain efallai. Mae'n ddyletswydd arnom i gymryd y cyfrifoldeb hwn a pheidio â chwarae gemau ag ef.
Cafodd adolygiad Cass i wasanaethau hunaniaeth rhywedd GIG Lloegr ar gyfer plant a phobl ifanc ei gyhoeddi fis diwethaf. Daeth i'r casgliad fod plant sy'n ddryslyd ynglŷn â'u rhywedd wedi cael cam yn sgil diffyg ymchwil a thystiolaeth. Canfu ymchwil a gynhaliwyd gan Brifysgol Efrog a gyflawnwyd ochr yn ochr â'r adroddiad fod tystiolaeth o effaith meddyginiaeth atal y glasoed a thriniaethau hormonau yn ddifrifol o brin, a chanfuwyd nad oedd mwyafrif y canllawiau clinigol wedi dilyn safonau rhyngwladol.
Fel y dywedais o'r blaen yn y Siambr hon, y tro cyntaf imi dynnu sylw at fy mhryderon gwreiddiol am adolygiad Cass oedd pan welsom yr adroddiad interim, ond yn anffodus, syrthiodd hwnnw ar glustiau byddar. Fe wnaethom alw am adolygiad penodol i Gymru, ac eto mae'r Llywodraeth hon wedi bwrw ymlaen ar ei llwybr ideolegol ac wedi penderfynu gwneud dim. Yna rhyddhawyd adroddiad terfynol Dr Cass, y mae ei ganlyniad wedi troi pennau ac ysgwyd rhai sefydliadau i'w craidd. Mae'n bwysig parhau i ailadrodd bod y canfyddiadau hyn yn hynod arwyddocaol i Gymru yn ogystal â Lloegr, ac mae'r Llywodraeth hon yn gwbl ymwybodol o hynny.
Mae ein llwybrau rhywedd yng Nghymru, fel y gwyddoch, yn dod i ben yn Lloegr, dan reolaeth GIG Lloegr a GIG Cymru, dan Lywodraeth y DU a Llywodraeth Cymru, a'r unig wahaniaeth yw bod Llywodraeth y DU wedi cynnal dadl a chyflwyno datganiad ar hyn ac wedi cymryd camau pendant eisoes i ddiogelu plant a phobl ifanc. Mae'n hanfodol fod pob plentyn sy'n cael trafferth gyda dysfforia rhywedd yn cael mynediad at y driniaeth gywir a thriniaeth ddiogel.
Yn ôl yn 2009, ychydig iawn o bobl a fyddai wedi clywed am hunaniaeth rhywedd hyd yn oed, a byddai llai fyth yn gwybod bod gwasanaeth iechyd Cymru wedi dechrau gwneud atgyfeiriadau at wasanaeth datblygu hunaniaeth rhywedd y GIG yn Lloegr, a leolir yn Tavistock—sy'n enwog nawr am yr holl resymau anghywir—sef yr unig glinig rhywedd arbenigol i bobl ifanc yng Nghymru a Lloegr. Cafodd 9,000 o gleifion ifanc driniaeth yn y gwasanaeth sydd bellach wedi cau. Datgelodd ymchwiliad gan gwmni cyfryngau Cymreig y gallai 230 o bobl o Gymru a gafodd driniaeth yno gael eu hargymell i gymryd rhan yn yr astudiaeth o'r canlyniadau hirdymor i gleifion sy'n derbyn gofal rhywedd ar oedran mor ifanc. Hoffwn glywed mwy o fanylion gan y Llywodraeth ar hyn heddiw.
Yn 2009, cafodd yr ymddiriedolaeth lai na 60 o atgyfeiriadau ar gyfer plant a phobl ifanc o bob rhan o Gymru a Lloegr, ond cynyddodd y galw'n fawr, ac erbyn 2022, roedd mwy na 5,000 o blant a phobl ifanc yn cael eu hatgyfeirio at glinigau hunaniaeth rhywedd a oedd wedi ymddangos ledled Lloegr. Beth oedd yn digwydd? O ble y deuai'r galw? Pam fod tri chwarter yr atgyfeiriadau hyn yn fenywod? Pam fod cynifer o blant? Ers blynyddoedd, mae rhieni, athrawon, clinigwyr, grwpiau hawliau menywod ac eraill yn y DU wedi ymgyrchu i ofyn y cwestiynau hyn a mwy.
Yng Nghymru, roeddent yn aml yn cael eu tawelu—roedd gweithwyr proffesiynol a rhieni fel ei gilydd yn cael clywed bod eu hofnau'n ddi-sail, yn rhagfarnllyd a hyd yn oed yn atgas. Fe wnaeth Llywodraeth Cymru anwybyddu pryderon a gwreiddio'r egwyddorion hyn yn eu cynlluniau swyddogol a'u cwricwlwm ysgol eu hunain. Diolch i waith grwpiau fel Merched Cymru, rydym bellach yn gweld yr effaith yng Nghymru. Mae yna blant sydd wedi dechrau ar y daith i newid eu rhywedd mewn ysgolion heb gydsyniad rhieni, ac mae hyn yn dal i ddigwydd mewn ysgolion yng Nghymru heddiw. Diolch i adolygiad Cass, mae gennym atebion clir i'r cwestiynau a ofynnwyd ers blynyddoedd lawer, ac mae'n bryd bellach i lunwyr polisi ymateb.
Mae'r adroddiad 398 tudalen yn tynnu sylw at beryglon presgripsiynu meddyginiaethau atal y glasoed heb eu trin ac na ellir eu gwrthdroi i bobl ifanc. Canfu'r adroddiad nad yw gweithwyr gofal iechyd proffesiynol wedi gofyn y cwestiynau cywir; yn hytrach, maent wedi ceisio lledaenu ideoleg wleidyddol beryglus ar draul diogelu a thystiolaeth, yn hytrach na lleddfu gofid seicolegol, sef yr hyn y dylem i gyd fod eisiau ei gyflawni. Mae'n dod i'r casgliad ei bod yn amlwg fod methiannau sylweddol wedi bod yn ein gwasanaethau gofal iechyd i ddiogelu'r cleifion mwyaf agored i niwed.
Mae adolygiad Cass hefyd yn rhybuddio athrawon i beidio â gwneud penderfyniadau cynamserol sy'n glinigol i bob pwrpas am y plant y maent i fod i'w diogelu. Mae'n glir yn ei ganfyddiadau fod trawsnewid cymdeithasol mewn ysgolion yn rhagflaenydd i ymyrraeth feddygol na ellir ei gwrthdroi, ac eto yma yng Nghymru mae ymagwedd gadarnhaol tuag at ddysfforia rhywedd yn cael ei blethu drwy god a chanllawiau addysg cydberthynas a rhywioldeb gorfodol Llywodraeth Cymru ei hun.
Felly, beth sydd angen digwydd? Yn gyntaf, mewn ysgolion, mae Llywodraeth y DU yn datblygu ei chanllawiau trawsryweddol ei hun, a bydd yn ystyried y canfyddiadau diweddaraf hyn nawr. Rwy'n annog Llywodraeth Cymru i dynnu ei chanllawiau ei hun ar gyfer ysgolion yn ôl ar unwaith a chynnal adolygiad ohonynt. Rhaid i'r Llywodraeth hon hefyd dynnu elfennau perthnasol gorfodol o'r cwricwlwm cydberthynas a rhywioldeb ar rywedd a hunaniaeth rhywedd yn ôl i'w hadolygu. Yn yr un modd, rhaid cyfarwyddo ysgolion yng Nghymru i gynnal adolygiad brys o ddeunyddiau, gweithgareddau a pholisïau sy'n berthnasol i addysg cydberthynas a rhywioldeb a chanllawiau ar gyfer disgyblion trawsryweddol; rhaid iddynt fod yn ganllawiau cywir. Rhaid inni sicrhau bod plant a'u rhieni'n cael eu cefnogi gan ganllawiau sy'n seiliedig ar ffeithiau a synnwyr cyffredin, fel y mae ein cynnig yn galw amdano.
O ran iechyd, mae GIG Lloegr hefyd wedi gwneud penderfyniad pwysig i atal presgripsiynu rheolaidd ar gyfer meddyginiaethau atal y glasoed i blant â dysfforia rhywedd. Cyhoeddodd y byddai hefyd yn atal pobl ifanc dan 18 oed rhag cael mynediad at wasanaethau rhywedd oedolion ac mae wedi galw am adolygiad brys o bolisi clinigol ar hormonau trawsrywiol. Mae Llywodraeth yr Alban wedi cyhoeddi saib ar feddyginiaethau atal y glasoed i blant. Mae'r ddau beth yn digwydd ar unwaith ac yn ddi-oed. Eich tro chi nawr, Lywodraeth Cymru, er nad wyf am ddal fy ngwynt, oherwydd mae eich gwelliant yn dileu popeth ac ond yn nodi, heb unrhyw gamau gweithredu i'w gweld o gwbl, sy'n gywilyddus, oherwydd mae pobl Cymru eisiau gweld gweithredu ar hyn. Rhaid i GIG Cymru gynnal adolygiad ar unwaith, fel y gelwir amdano ym mhwynt 4 ein cynnig.
Yn drydydd, mae Llywodraeth Cymru wedi ymrwymo i ystyried opsiynau ar gyfer datblygu gwasanaeth i bobl ifanc yng Nghymru yn ei chynllun gweithredu LHDTC+, a lansiwyd ym mis Chwefror 2023. Rwyf wedi clywed gan gyd-Aelodau, gweithwyr proffesiynol a rhieni ledled Cymru sy'n pryderu'n fawr ynglŷn ag ymrwymiad o'r fath i ehangu'r gwasanaeth rhywedd i oedolion, rhywbeth a oedd y tu allan i gwmpas adolygiad Cass ar gyfer GIG Lloegr, sy'n peri pryder, a hoffem wybod, ar y meinciau hyn, beth mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn bwriadu ei wneud ynglŷn â hynny i ddiogelu'r bobl hyn. Hefyd, mae pryderon ynghylch datblygu'r gwasanaeth i bobl ifanc dan 18 oed. Byddai gwneud hynny nawr, yng ngoleuni adolygiad Cass, yn anghyfrifol, yn enwedig heb newid cyfeiriad sylweddol gan y Llywodraeth hon.
Mae'n amlwg fod angen adolygu cynllun gweithredu LHDTC+ y Llywodraeth hon, ac mae'r Senedd hon angen amserlen ar gyfer hyn. Ymateb Llywodraeth Cymru hyd yma distawrwydd llwyr. Beth rydych chi'n ei ofni? Mae'n rhaid ichi weithredu ar hyn. Mae hon yn sgandal genedlaethol sy'n datblygu o'n blaenau. Dim ond un peth sydd wrth wraidd comisiwn Cass: datblygu pobl ifanc i ffynnu a chyflawni eu huchelgeisiau. Mae pob plentyn a pherson ifanc yn haeddu hynny. Yr athrawon, y rhieni—
You need to conclude now. You've used your opening and closing allocation, and your Member who's closing hasn't got any time.
Mae angen ichi ddod i ben nawr. Rydych wedi defnyddio eich dyraniad agor a chloi, ac nid oes amser ar gyfer eich Aelod sy'n cloi.
Sorry. The Secretary of State for Health—. I could talk for the whole half an hour, but I won't.
Mae'n ddrwg gennyf. Mae'r Ysgrifennydd Gwladol dros Iechyd—. Gallwn siarad am yr hanner awr gyfan, ond ni wnaf.
You haven't got the time, sorry.
Nid oes gennych amser, mae'n ddrwg gennyf.
The Secretary of State for Health in the UK Government has pledged urgent and effective action. She said that she'll be working closely with NHS England to root out the ideology that's caused so much unnecessary harm. My question is will the Welsh Government do it. Everyone in this Chamber has a responsibility to protect—
Mae'r Ysgrifennydd Gwladol dros Iechyd yn Llywodraeth y DU wedi addo gweithredu effeithiol ar frys. Dywedodd y bydd hi'n gweithio'n agos gyda GIG Lloegr i gael gwared ar yr ideoleg sydd wedi achosi cymaint o niwed diangen. Fy nghwestiwn i yw a fydd Llywodraeth Cymru yn gwneud hynny. Mae gan bawb yn y Siambr hon gyfrifoldeb i ddiogelu—
Laura, you need to conclude, please.
Laura, mae angen ichi orffen, os gwelwch yn dda.
—and safeguard children and young people in Wales. These children deserve better, and I hope that everyone can support our motion today.
—ac amddiffyn plant a phobl ifanc yng Nghymru. Mae'r plant hyn yn haeddu gwell, ac rwy'n gobeithio y gall pawb gefnogi ein cynnig heddiw.
Just to highlight the point, the Member has used the whole time allocated to the Conservative group for this particular item. I will give the closing Member a minute of additional time, but, please, when you put 30-minute debates together, you have an allocated time and you have to share that between opening and closing. It's important to remember that, please.
Os caf nodi'r pwynt, mae'r Aelod wedi defnyddio'r holl amser a ddyrannwyd i'r grŵp Ceidwadol ar gyfer yr eitem benodol hon. Byddaf yn rhoi munud o amser ychwanegol i'r Aelod sy'n cloi, ond os gwelwch yn dda, pan fyddwch chi'n llunio dadleuon 30 munud, mae gennych amser wedi'i ddyrannu ac mae'n rhaid ichi rannu hwnnw rhwng agor a chloi. Mae'n bwysig cofio hynny, os gwelwch yn dda.
Rwyf wedi dethol y ddau welliant i'r cynnig. Galwaf ar Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet dros Iechyd a Gofal Cymdeithasol i gynnig yn ffurfiol welliant 1, a gyflwynwyd yn enw Jane Hutt.
I have selected two amendments to the motion. I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care to move formally amendment 1, tabled in the name of Jane Hutt.
Gwelliant 1—Jane Hutt
Dileu popeth a rhoi yn ei le:
Cynnig bod y Senedd:
1. Yn nodi cyhoeddi adolygiad Cass.
2. Yn nodi bod y GIG yng Nghymru yn comisiynu gwasanaethau hunaniaeth rhywedd i blant a phobl ifanc 17 oed ac iau gan y GIG yn Lloegr.
3. Yn nodi bod y GIG yn Lloegr wedi dod i'r casgliad nad oes digon o dystiolaeth i gefnogi diogelwch nac effeithiolrwydd clinigol hormonau atal y glasoed ar gyfer trin dysfforia rhywedd mewn plant a phobl ifanc ar hyn o bryd.
4. Yn nodi y bydd Llywodraeth Cymru yn parhau i ddatblygu'r canllawiau trawsrywedd ar gyfer ysgolion, gan ystyried adolygiad Cass a barn rhanddeiliaid.
Amendment 1—Jane Hutt
Delete all and replace with:
To propose that the Senedd:
1. Notes the publication of the Cass review.
2. Notes that NHS Wales commissions gender identity services for children and young people 17 and under from NHS England.
3. Notes that NHS England has concluded there is not enough evidence to support the safety or clinical effectiveness of puberty suppressing hormones for the treatment of gender dysphoria in children and young people at this time.
4. Notes the Welsh Government will continue to develop the transgender guidance for schools taking account of the Cass review and stakeholder views.
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 1.
Amendment 1 moved.
Yn ffurfiol.
Formally.
Galwaf ar Sioned Williams i gynnig gwelliant 2, a gyflwynwyd yn enw Heledd Fychan.
I call on Sioned Williams to move amendment 2, tabled in the name of Heledd Fychan.
Gwelliant 2—Heledd Fychan
Ychwanegu pwyntiau newydd ar ddiwedd y cynnig:
Yn gresynu at absenoldeb gwasanaethau hunaniaeth rhywedd arbenigol cynhwysfawr yng Nghymru.
Yn credu bod pob unigolyn, beth bynnag fo'u hunaniaeth rhywedd, yn haeddu parch, dealltwriaeth a mynediad at wasanaethau cymorth a gofal iechyd priodol.
Yn galw ar Lywodraeth Cymru i ddatblygu gwasanaeth hunaniaeth rhywedd i bobl ifanc yng Nghymru.
Amendment 2—Heledd Fychan
Add as new points at end of motion:
Regrets the absence of comprehensive specialist gender identity services in Wales.
Believes that every individual, whatever their gender identity, deserves respect, understanding and access to appropriate support services and healthcare.
Calls on the Welsh Government to develop gender identity services for young people in Wales.
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 2.
Amendment 2 moved.
Diolch, Ddirprwy Lywydd. Y flaenoriaeth i Blaid Cymru wrth drafod y mater hwn—ac fe ddylai fod i ni i gyd—yw bod lles ein plant a'n pobl ifanc, eu barn a'u profiadau, yn gwbl greiddiol ac yn ganolbwynt i'w gofal, ac unrhyw newid i'r gofal hwnnw. Rydym ni fel plaid yn cydsefyll yn gadarn gyda phobl draws o bob oed sydd wedi dioddef yn enbyd dros y blynyddoedd diwethaf yn sgil cael eu defnyddio gan rai gwleidyddion a sylwebwyr fel arf mewn rhyfel diwylliant, a does dim gwadu hynny. Mae'n gwbl warthus ac yn gwbl annerbyniol. Mae ein gwelliant ni yn tynnu sylw at y ffaith bod angen gwell cefnogaeth ar bobl ifanc yng Nghymru o ran gwasanaethau hunaniaeth rhywedd arbenigol, ac rŷn ni'n galw ar Lywodraeth Cymru i ddatblygu gwasanaeth hunaniaeth rhywedd i bobl ifanc yng Nghymru.
Mae'r adolygiad ei hun yn nodi bod angen gwell dealltwriaeth o'r gofal a'r gefnogaeth sydd eu hangen ar bobl ifanc, ac yn tynnu sylw at ddiffyg mynediad cyfartal pobl ifanc dros Gymru i wasanaethau rhywedd. Yng Nghymru, mae absenoldeb gwasanaethau rhywedd arbenigol ar gyfer ein pobl ifanc yn rhwystr i gymorth amserol a phriodol i bobl ifanc, a heb y mynediad hwnnw, mae'r unigolion hyn mewn perygl o brofi niwed corfforol a seicolegol. Ac nid mater o fynd i'r afael ag anghenion uniongyrchol yn unig yw sefydlu'r fath wasanaeth; mae'n fuddsoddiad yn llesiant a gwytnwch ein hieuenctid, ac felly ein cymunedau, i'r dyfodol. Trwy ddarparu cymorth amserol a phriodol, gallwn rymuso pobl ifanc i lywio eu taith hunaniaeth rhywedd gyda hyder a chyda urddas.
At hynny, mae gwasanaeth hunaniaeth rhywedd penodol ar gyfer pobl ifanc yn cyd-fynd ag ymrwymiad ein cenedl i gydraddoldeb a hawliau dynol. Mae'n anfon neges bwerus bod pob unigolyn, waeth beth fo'i hunaniaeth o ran rhywedd, yn haeddu parch, dealltwriaeth a mynediad at wasanaethau cymorth a gofal iechyd. Ein gôl ni oll ddylai fod helpu ein pobl ifanc i ffynnu. Rhaid i bob cynrychiolydd warchod rhag creu rhagfarn yn eu herbyn, ond yn hytrach meithrin diwylliant a chymdeithas sy'n amlygu agweddau cynhwysol, goddefgar a thrugarog ac sy'n dathlu ac yn annog amrywiaeth.
Mae Plaid Cymru yn cefnogi gwelliant y Llywodraeth, ond hoffwn godi y pwyntiau penodol canlynol. Mae yna achosion o bobl ifanc yng Nghymru yn hunan-niweidio yn sgil methu cael y gofal maen nhw ei angen a'r gefnogaeth sydd angen arnyn nhw i drawsnewid. Felly, sut bydd y Llywodraeth yn sicrhau bod y bobl ifanc yma a'u teuluoedd nawr yn cael eu cefnogi—y rhai sy'n aros i gael mynediad i wasanaethau, y rhai sydd wrthi yn derbyn gwasanaethau a'r rhai sydd wedi gweld eu mynediad at rai triniaethau yn cael ei atal?
Sut mae'r Llywodraeth yn sicrhau nad yw'r adolygiad yn cael ei gamddefnyddio fel arf yn erbyn y gymuned draws, a phryd yn union bydd y canllawiau i ysgolion y sonnir amdanynt yn y gwelliant yn cyrraedd athrawon? Mae hwn yn fater rwyf wedi codi sawl tro yn y Siambr, ac mae'n fater brys er mwyn sicrhau bod ein staff ysgol—
Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. The priority for Plaid Cymru when discussing this issue—and it should be a priority for us all—is that the well-being of our children and young people, their views and their experiences, are absolutely central to their care, and any changes to that care. We as a party stand firmly with trans people of all ages who have suffered greatly over recent years as a result of being used by some politicians and commentators as a weapon in a culture war, and there's no denying that. It is utterly disgraceful and utterly unacceptable. Our amendment highlights the fact that our young people in Wales need better support in terms of specialist gender identity services, and we call on the Welsh Government to develop a gender identity service for young people in Wales.
The review itself states that there is a need for a better understanding of the care and support that young people need, and draws attention to the lack of equal access for young people across Wales to gender services. In Wales, the absence of specialist gender services for our young people is a barrier to timely and appropriate support for young people, and without that access, these individuals are at risk of experiencing physical and psychological harm. And it's not a matter of simply addressing immediate needs in terms of the establishment of such a service; it is an investment in the well-being and resilience of our young people, and therefore our communities, into the future. By providing timely and appropriate support, we can empower young people to navigate their gender identity journey with confidence and with dignity.
Furthermore, a specific gender identity service for young people is in line with our nation's commitment to equality and human rights. It sends a powerful message that all individuals, regardless of their gender identity, deserve respect, understanding and access to appropriate healthcare and support services. All of our goals should all be to help our young people thrive. All representatives must guard against creating prejudice against them, but rather nurture a culture and society that manifests inclusive, tolerant and humane attitudes and that celebrates and encourage diversity.
Plaid Cymru supports the Government's amendment, but I would like to raise the following specific points. There are cases of young people in Wales self-harming as a result of not being able to access the care that they need and the support that they need to transition. So, how will the Government ensure that these young people and their families are now supported—those who are waiting to access services, those who are currently receiving services and those who have seen their access to certain treatments stopped?
How does the Welsh Government ensure that the review is not misused as a weapon against the trans community? And when exactly will the guidance for schools mentioned in the amendment actually reach teachers? This is an issue that I have raised several times in this Chamber. It is an urgent issue in terms of ensuring that our school staff—
Sioned, rhaid i ti orffen, os gwelwch yn dda.
Sioned, you have to conclude now.
—yn teimlo'n hyderus ac wedi eu hymgrymuso i gefnogi disgyblion, yn enwedig yn wyneb yr ymateb tocsig ac adweithiol ac weithiau camarweiniol sydd wedi datblygu yn sgil cyhoeddi'r adroddiad. A wnaiff yr Ysgrifennydd Cabinet gytuno gyda fi mai trwy gefnogi ein pobl ifanc drwy'n hysgolion, a thrwy sicrhau mynediad i wasanaethau o safon uchel yn brydlon ac yn eu gwlad eu hunain, y gallwn warchod hawliau ac urddas pawb yn gydradd a chyrraedd nod ein dwy blaid—
—feel confident and empowered to support pupils, especially in view of the toxic and reactionary and sometimes misleading response that has developed following the publication of this report. Will the Cabinet Secretary agree with me that it's through supporting our young people through our schools, and by ensuring access to high-quality services in a timely manner and in their own nation, that we can actually protect the dignity of everyone equally and reach the aim of both our parties—
Nawr, plis, Sioned.
Now, please, Sioned.
—o fod y genedl fwyaf cyfeillgar i'r gymuned LHDTC+ yn Ewrop? Diolch.
—of being the most LGBTQ+ friendly country in Europe?
'We are in an age where it can feel like we are under attack, and that our rights are at risk of being rolled back: whether that is around the world or, sadly, slightly closer to home, with the apparent regressive position on LGBTQ+ rights being pursued by the current UK Conservative Government. There is a sense of history repeating itself, from the language of vilification, fear and othering targeted at the trans community...that many of us are all too familiar with.'
So said Hannah Blythyn in her foreword to the LGBT action plan. Laura Anne Jones is not the only person taking a messianic approach to anything to do with gender identity, and, I’m sorry, you have failed to understand that pursuing a culture war of this nature is what makes some clinicians fearful of working with gender-questioning people. Simply tacking this issue as if it didn’t exist is really not helpful.
'Rydym mewn oes lle gall deimlo fel pe baem dan ymosodiad, a bod ein hawliau mewn perygl o gael eu colli: boed hynny o gwmpas y byd neu'n anffodus, ychydig yn nes adref, gyda Llywodraeth Geidwadol bresennol y DU yn mynd ar drywydd safbwynt ymddangosiadol anflaengar ar hawliau LHDTC+. Mae yna ymdeimlad o hanes yn ailadrodd ei hun, o iaith ddifenwol, ofn ac aralleiddio wedi'i dargedu at y gymuned draws...pethau y mae llawer ohonom ond yn rhy gyfarwydd â nhw.'
Dyna mae Hannah Blythyn yn ei ddweud yn ei rhagair i'r cynllun gweithredu LHDT. Nid Laura Anne Jones yw'r unig un sy'n mabwysiadu agwedd feseianaidd at unrhyw beth sy'n ymwneud â hunaniaeth rhywedd, ac mae'n ddrwg gennyf, rydych chi wedi methu deall mai mynd ar drywydd rhyfel diwylliant o'r math hwn yw'r hyn sy'n gwneud rhai clinigwyr yn ofnus rhag gweithio gyda phobl sy'n cwestiynu eu rhywedd. Nid yw ymdrin â'r mater hwn fel pe na bai'n bodoli o unrhyw ddefnydd o gwbl.
Can I just say that—
A gaf i ddweud—
I think you've just had a lengthy contribution.
Rwy'n credu eich bod chi newydd gael cyfraniad hir.
Just to be clear, you're not taking an intervention.
I fod yn glir, nid ydych chi'n derbyn ymyriad.
No.
Nac ydw.
But she mentioned me, so that's—
Ond fe soniodd amdanaf, felly mae hynny'n—
She's not taking an intervention.
Nid yw'n derbyn ymyriad.
That's not the polite thing to do.
Nid dyna'r peth cwrtais i'w wneud.
You've had your opportunity, Laura Anne.
Rydych chi wedi cael eich cyfle, Laura Anne.
Laura, she's not taking an intervention.
Laura, nid yw'n derbyn ymyriad.
Cass said:
'Our current understanding of the long-term health impacts of hormone interventions is limited and needs to be better understood.'
That may be true, but the assumption that that should translate into an instant ban on puberty blockers, welcomed by the Tory motion, is some distance from being based on firm clinical evidence. A wide range of international clinical and academic opinion contests that position. If the evidence is weak, we may need to pause the service, as in Scotland, while we look further into it. But for a child who feels they’ve been born in the wrong body, having to go through puberty inevitably worsens their gender dysphoria.
The closure of the national GIDS service in London abruptly ended the service Wales had commissioned for people under 18. Cass had assumed that it would lead to the development of a suite of regional and local services. That hasn’t happened—not unrelated to the culture war noise coming from the UK Government and elsewhere. We cannot simply accept a ‘for Wales, see England' approach. We need to quickly develop our own child and adolescent gender identity service as envisaged in the LGBTQ action plan, building on our well-established adult Welsh gender service, operating for the last five years.
The clinical reference group warns:
'children and young people are waiting lengthy periods to access GIDS, during which time some may be at considerable risk. By the time they are seen, their distress may have worsened, and their mental health may have deteriorated.'
This cannot continue. We must act properly to deliver the service children and young people need in order to be able to thrive.
Fe ddywedodd Cass:
'Mae ein dealltwriaeth bresennol o effeithiau hirdymor ymyriadau hormonau yn gyfyngedig ac mae angen eu deall yn well.'
Gall hynny fod yn wir, ond mae'r dybiaeth y dylai hynny drosi'n waharddiad ar unwaith ar feddyginiaethau atal y glasoed, a groesawyd gan y cynnig Torïaidd, gryn bellter o fod yn seiliedig ar dystiolaeth glinigol gadarn. Mae ystod eang o farn glinigol ac academaidd ryngwladol yn cwestiynu'r safbwynt hwnnw. Os yw'r dystiolaeth yn wan, efallai y bydd angen inni oedi'r gwasanaeth, fel yn yr Alban, inni gael edrych arno ymhellach. Ond i blentyn sy'n teimlo ei fod wedi cael ei eni yn y corff anghywir, mae'n anochel fod gorfod mynd drwy'r glasoed yn gwaethygu eu dysfforia rhywedd.
Golygodd cau'r gwasanaeth datblygu hunaniaeth rhywedd cenedlaethol yn Llundain fod y gwasanaeth a gomisiynwyd gan Gymru i bobl dan 18 oed wedi dod i ben yn sydyn. Roedd Cass wedi tybio y byddai'n arwain at ddatblygu cyfres o wasanaethau rhanbarthol a lleol. Nid yw hynny wedi digwydd—a gellir gweld cysylltiad â'r synau rhyfel diwylliant sy'n dod o gyfeiriad Llywodraeth y DU a mannau eraill. Ni allwn dderbyn dull 'ar gyfer Cymru, gweler Lloegr'. Mae angen inni ddatblygu ein gwasanaeth hunaniaeth rhywedd plant a phobl ifanc ein hunain yn gyflym fel y rhagwelwyd yn y cynllun gweithredu LHDTC, gan adeiladu ar ein gwasanaeth rhywedd Cymreig i oedolion sydd wedi hen ennill ei blwyf, ac a fu'n weithredol dros y pum mlynedd diwethaf.
Mae'r grŵp cyfeirio clinigol yn rhybuddio bod:
'plant a phobl ifanc yn aros am gyfnodau hir i gael mynediad at y gwasanaeth datblygu hunaniaeth rhywedd, ac yn yr amser hwnnw gallai rhai fod mewn perygl sylweddol. Erbyn iddynt gael eu gweld, efallai fod eu gofid wedi gwaethygu, a'u hiechyd meddwl wedi dirywio.'
Ni all hyn barhau. Rhaid inni weithredu'n briodol i ddarparu'r gwasanaeth sydd ei angen ar blant a phobl ifanc i allu ffynnu.
It's entirely appropriate that this debate is being held in the Senedd here today, because whilst the Cass review report was submitted to NHS England, it has a huge impact on us here in Wales, because over the years hundreds of children from Wales, who we represent, have been sent to England, to the gender identity development service, also known as the Tavistock clinic. For example, in 2022 this number was over 150 children who were sent there. And during their time there, we know that GIDS were giving vulnerable young people puberty blockers, and as the Cass review found, the evidence to support puberty blockers was ‘remarkably weak’, in their words. Not enough is known about the longer term impacts of puberty blockers for children and young people to know whether they are safe or not. [Interruption.] I’m sorry, I’m not going to accept, Jenny Rathbone. You refused my colleague.
This comes after the University of York’s systematic, independent research programme, as part of the review, which was the largest and most comprehensive work done on the issue, and I think it should be taken very seriously. So, put bluntly, those children were subject to medical intervention with unknown consequences, and they’re the children that we represent day in, day out. I certainly would not want my children sent into an environment with such uncertainty and experimentation, so I cannot justify this for other children in Wales.
These children were and are some of the most vulnerable in our communities, and are being let down by a system and by adults through a series of unknown outcomes, which to me is completely unacceptable. What children need in this situation is proper care and health support and not medical experimentation with such unknown long-term impacts.
And proper care also means parents not being sidelined in decisions. In my view, it’s highly dangerous and suspect when adults in these situations seek to remove parental involvement from their children’s lives. Parents, let’s not forget, are the primary carers of the children, and need to be involved, informed and to be decision makers in any medical intervention. So, support and education for parents as well is equally as important as they are for the children they care for.
So, I ask us in this room here today, do we agree with the Cass report that children with gender dysphoria deserve very much better than the current way they're treated, or not? And do these children deserve proper evidence-based interventions, or should they continue to be given drugs with unknown long-term impacts? A constituent of mine who wrote to me this week perhaps put it best, and they said: 'Children who are confused about their gender need care based on evidence of what works and what is best for the child long term. Care needs to be based on facts rather than ideology and emotions, and care that does not cause them harm or prevent their often complex needs from being explored.' We should send a message today that will follow the science and will put the safety and well-being of children first and last. Diolch yn fawr iawn.
Mae'n gwbl briodol fod y ddadl hon yn cael ei chynnal yn y Senedd yma heddiw, oherwydd er bod adroddiad adolygiad Cass wedi'i gyflwyno i GIG Lloegr, mae'n cael effaith enfawr arnom yma yng Nghymru, oherwydd dros y blynyddoedd mae cannoedd o blant o Gymru, a gynrychiolir gennym, wedi cael eu hanfon i Loegr, i'r gwasanaeth datblygu hunaniaeth rhywedd, a elwir hefyd yn glinig Tavistock. Er enghraifft, yn 2022 anfonwyd dros 150 o blant yno. Ac yn ystod eu hamser yno, gwyddom fod y gwasanaeth datblygu hunaniaeth rhywedd yn rhoi meddyginiaethau atal y glasoed i bobl ifanc agored i niwed, ac fel y canfu adolygiad Cass, roedd y dystiolaeth i gefnogi meddyginiaethau atal y glasoed yn 'rhyfeddol o wan', yn eu geiriau nhw. Nid oes digon yn hysbys am effeithiau mwy hirdymor meddyginiaethau atal y glasoed i blant a phobl ifanc i allu gwybod a ydynt yn ddiogel ai peidio. [Torri ar draws.] Mae'n ddrwg gennyf, nid wyf yn mynd i dderbyn, Jenny Rathbone. Fe wnaethoch chi wrthod fy nghyd-Aelod.
Daw hyn ar ôl rhaglen ymchwil systematig, annibynnol Prifysgol Efrog, fel rhan o'r adolygiad, sef y gwaith mwyaf a mwyaf cynhwysfawr a wnaed ar y mater, ac rwy'n credu y dylid bod o ddifrif yn ei gylch. Felly, yn blwmp ac yn blaen, roedd y plant hynny'n destun ymyrraeth feddygol gyda chanlyniadau anhysbys, a nhw yw'r plant a gynrychiolir gennym o un diwrnod i'r llall. Yn sicr, ni fyddwn am i fy mhlant i gael eu hanfon i amgylchedd gyda'r fath ansicrwydd ac arbrofi, felly ni allaf gyfiawnhau hyn ar gyfer plant eraill yng Nghymru.
Roedd, ac mae'r plant hyn ymhlith y mwyaf agored i niwed yn ein cymunedau, ac maent yn cael cam gan system a chan oedolion drwy gyfres o ganlyniadau anhysbys, sydd i mi yn gwbl annerbyniol. Yr hyn sydd ei angen ar blant yn y sefyllfa hon yw gofal priodol a chymorth iechyd ac nid arbrofi meddygol gyda'r fath effeithiau hirdymor anhysbys.
Ac mae gofal priodol hefyd yn golygu nad yw rhieni'n cael eu gwthio i'r cyrion mewn penderfyniadau. Yn fy marn i, mae'n beryglus iawn ac yn amheus pan fydd oedolion yn y sefyllfaoedd hyn yn ceisio dileu cyfranogiad rhieni o fywydau eu plant. Gadewch inni gofio mai rhieni yw prif ofalwyr y plant, ac mae angen iddynt gael rhan yn hyn, a bod yn wybodus ac i fod yn wneuthurwyr penderfyniadau mewn unrhyw ymyrraeth feddygol. Felly, mae cefnogaeth ac addysg i rieni yr un mor bwysig ag ar gyfer y plant y maent yn gofalu amdanynt.
Felly, rwy'n gofyn i ni yn yr ystafell hon heddiw, a ydym yn cytuno ag adroddiad Cass fod plant â dysfforia rhywedd yn haeddu llawer gwell na'r ffordd y cânt eu trin ar hyn o bryd ai peidio? Ac a yw'r plant hyn yn haeddu ymyriadau priodol sy'n seiliedig ar dystiolaeth, neu a ddylid parhau i roi cyffuriau iddynt sydd ag effeithiau hirdymor anhysbys? Efallai mai un o fy etholwyr a ysgrifennodd ataf yr wythnos hon a ddisgrifiodd hyn orau: 'Mae plant sy'n ddryslyd ynglŷn â'u rhywedd angen gofal yn seiliedig ar dystiolaeth o'r hyn sy'n gweithio a beth sydd orau i'r plentyn yn y tymor hir. Mae angen i ofal fod yn seiliedig ar ffeithiau yn hytrach nag ideoleg ac emosiynau, a gofal nad yw'n achosi niwed iddynt neu'n atal eu hanghenion, sy'n aml yn gymhleth, rhag cael eu harchwilio.' Dylem anfon neges heddiw a fydd yn dilyn y wyddoniaeth ac a fydd yn rhoi diogelwch a llesiant plant yn gyntaf drwyddi draw. Diolch yn fawr iawn.
I speak to the amendment tabled in the name of Jane Hutt, which notes that
'NHS England has concluded there is not enough evidence to support the safety or clinical effectiveness of puberty suppressing hormones for the treatment of gender dysphoria in children and young people at this time.'
Dr Hilary Cass in her review of gender identity services for children notes, and I quote:
'Polarisation and stifling of debate do nothing to help the young people caught in the middle of a stormy social discourse',
and they need and deserve better. We need to eliminate the toxicity of this debate and its politicisation. It helps no-one, least of all those young persons involved.
This Senedd Chamber should and must be a place where all reasonable views are able to be expressed, and nobody should be cancelled in a democracy for stating an honestly held and non-prejudicial viewpoint. I am an avowed feminist and champion of women's rights—I have been all my life—and a champion of equality and justice for all. And it serves our democracy and all our people ill where we are not able to share honestly held views that ordinary citizens going about their daily lives today will share.
As the leader of the UK Labour Party, Keir Starmer, stated yesterday, the Labour Party has championed women's rights for a very long time. It is important in a Welsh context to stress that NHS Wales commissions gender identity services, as has been said, for children and young people 17 and under from NHS England. Dr Cass states that doctors who might otherwise have treated young people questioning their gender identity for depression or autistic spectrum disorders felt compelled to instead refer them to GIDS, the gender identity development service run by the Tavistock and Portman NHS Foundation Trust, which has since been shut down.
Dr Cass found that there was no good evidence to support the global clinical practice of prescribing hormones to under 18s to halt puberty or transition to the opposite sex. Researchers at the University of York examined all available evidence—all available evidence—on how to treat children questioning their gender identity. They concluded there was wholly inadequate evidence to support medical intervention, making it therefore impossible to know whether it improves mental or physical health.
The Cass review is well researched and it is evidence based. So, Deputy Llywydd, we must all in this Chamber demonstrate leadership and empathy for others and fully comprehend and understand that turning such complex and divisive issues into articles of faith in some sort of culture war, so often stoked by online keyboard warriors, is wrong, and that does a disservice to all. Thank you.
Rwy'n mynd i siarad am y gwelliant a gyflwynwyd yn enw Jane Hutt, sy'n nodi bod
'y GIG yn Lloegr wedi dod i'r casgliad nad oes digon o dystiolaeth i gefnogi diogelwch nac effeithiolrwydd clinigol hormonau atal y glasoed ar gyfer trin dysfforia rhywedd mewn plant a phobl ifanc ar hyn o bryd.'
Mae Dr Hilary Cass yn ei hadolygiad o wasanaethau hunaniaeth rhywedd i blant yn nodi:
'Nid yw pegynnu a mygu dadl yn gwneud dim i helpu'r bobl ifanc sy'n cael eu dal yng nghanol trafodaeth gymdeithasol stormus',
ac maent angen ac yn haeddu gwell. Mae angen inni ddileu'r gwenwyn yn y ddadl hon a'r modd y caiff ei gwleidyddoli. Nid yw'n helpu neb, ac yn sicr nid yw'n help o gwbl i'r holl bobl ifanc sy'n wynebu'r pethau hyn.
Dylai'r Siambr hon fod yn fan lle gellir mynegi pob safbwynt rhesymol, ac ni ddylid canslo neb mewn democratiaeth am ddatgan safbwynt a arddelir yn onest ac nad yw'n rhagfarnllyd. Rwy'n ffeminist frwd ac yn hyrwyddo hawliau menywod—rwyf wedi gwneud hynny ar hyd fy oes—ac yn hyrwyddo cydraddoldeb a chyfiawnder i bawb. Ac mae'n adlewyrchu'n wael ar ein democratiaeth a'n holl bobl pan nad ydym yn gallu rhannu safbwyntiau gonest y bydd dinasyddion cyffredin sy'n byw eu bywydau o ddydd i ddydd heddiw yn eu rhannu.
Fel y dywedodd arweinydd Plaid Lafur y DU, Keir Starmer ddoe, mae'r Blaid Lafur wedi hyrwyddo hawliau menywod ers amser maith iawn. Mae'n bwysig pwysleisio mewn cyd-destun Cymreig fod GIG Cymru yn comisiynu gwasanaethau hunaniaeth rhywedd, fel y dywedwyd, ar gyfer plant a phobl ifanc 17 oed ac iau gan GIG Lloegr. Dywed Dr Cass fod meddygon a allai fod fel arall wedi trin pobl ifanc sy'n cwestiynu eu hunaniaeth rhywedd ar gyfer iselder neu anhwylderau ar y sbectrwm awtistig wedi teimlo bod gorfodaeth arnynt i'w cyfeirio at y gwasanaeth datblygu hunaniaeth rhywedd sy'n cael ei redeg gan Ymddiriedolaeth Sefydliad GIG Tavistock and Portman, ac sydd bellach wedi'i gau.
Canfu Dr Cass nad oedd tystiolaeth dda dros gefnogi'r arfer clinigol cyffredinol o bresgripsiynu hormonau i bobl dan 18 oed i atal y glasoed neu drawsnewid i'r rhyw arall. Archwiliodd ymchwilwyr ym Mhrifysgol Efrog yr holl dystiolaeth sydd ar gael—yr holl dystiolaeth sydd ar gael—ar sut i drin plant sy'n cwestiynu eu hunaniaeth rhywedd. Daethant i'r casgliad fod tystiolaeth i gefnogi ymyrraeth feddygol yn gwbl annigonol, gan ei gwneud yn amhosibl gwybod a yw'n gwella iechyd meddwl neu gorfforol.
Mae adolygiad Cass wedi'i ymchwilio'n dda ac mae'n seiliedig ar dystiolaeth. Felly, Ddirprwy Lywydd, mae'n rhaid i bawb ohonom yn y Siambr hon ddangos arweinyddiaeth ac empathi tuag at eraill a deall yn llawn fod troi materion mor gymhleth a chynhennus yn erthyglau ffydd mewn rhyw fath o ryfel diwylliant, sydd mor aml yn cael ei fwydo gan ryfelwyr bysellfwrdd ar-lein, yn anghywir, ac mae hynny'n gwneud cam â phawb. Diolch.
It is vitally important that we take the poison out of this debate and put the compassion back in. That's got to be at the heart of the way that we discuss it, and the discussion that we must have with the transgender community, crucially, and including trans young people. There has been an attempt—. I don't doubt for one minute the professionalism and integrity of Dr Hilary Cass, but there has been an attempt, hasn't there, to weaponise this report, and to claim absolutely erroneously that it represents some kind of victory and vindication in a culture war? I think that does incredible disservice to transgender young people. Dr Cass herself has asked for respect, understanding and compassion, particularly for transgender young people, in the way that we approach this, and that's been ignored and has to stop. And I say this as well: the abuse and threats that Dr Hilary Cass has been faced with are wrong, and so are the abuse and threats that have been meted out to people who have legitimate criticisms or questions about the Cass review. So, let's stop that and have a proper, respectful, understanding and compassionate discussion.
I think there are many things in the report that people within the transgender community would agree with. The waiting lists are too long. How long have people in the LGBTQ+ community been calling that out? The services need to be local, provided locally—absolutely, and we need to build up the evidence base. People within the transgender community have been asking for that for years, so let's build that evidence to actually understand what works. That's what we do, don't we? It's called a scientific method, so it has to be the heart of this.
I'm not a clinician and I'm not a trans person, so I can't speak with authority about either of those issues, but I'm a gay man who lived in the 1980s, and when I hear people saying that there's no such thing as trans identity, it's a fallacy, or it's just the result of abuse, of trauma, of mental ill health or what have you, I remember what it was like, growing up as a gay teenager. I was told it was a phase. It was a phase. Homosexuality was then listed as a mental disorder, right, by the American Psychiatric Association. I was told evil, predatory people were preying on the minds of the vulnerable and impressionable young people, promoting a homosexual lifestyle or an agenda, and that those of us who succumb to it would regret it in later life. Can you see? Can you see the parallels? So, it's a genuine plea, okay? Let's actually put compassion and respect and understanding back where it belongs, at the heart of this debate, and think in particular of these transgender young people. They are an oppressed minority—
Mae'n hanfodol bwysig ein bod yn tynnu'r gwenwyn allan o'r ddadl hon ac yn rhoi'r tosturi yn ôl i mewn. Mae'n rhaid i hynny fod yn ganolog i'r ffordd yr ydym yn ei drafod, a'r drafodaeth y mae'n rhaid inni ei chael gyda'r gymuned drawsryweddol, yn allweddol, ac yn cynnwys pobl ifanc draws. Bu ymgais—. Nid wyf yn amau proffesiynoldeb a chywirdeb Dr Hilary Cass am un funud, ond fe fu ymgais i arfogi'r adroddiad hwn, ac i honni'n hollol wallus ei fod yn cynrychioli rhyw fath o fuddugoliaeth a chyfiawnhad mewn rhyfel diwylliant? Mae hynny'n gwneud cam enfawr â phobl ifanc drawsryweddol. Mae Dr Cass ei hun wedi gofyn am barch, dealltwriaeth a thosturi, yn enwedig i bobl ifanc drawsryweddol, yn y ffordd yr awn ati i ymdrin â hyn, ac mae hynny wedi cael ei anwybyddu ac mae'n rhaid iddo ddod i ben. Ac rwy'n dweud hyn hefyd: mae'r cam-drin a'r bygythiadau y mae Dr Hilary Cass wedi'u hwynebu yn anghywir, ac felly hefyd y cam-drin a'r bygythiadau a gyfeiriwyd tuag at bobl sy'n feirniadol neu sydd â chwestiynau dilys am adolygiad Cass. Felly, gadewch inni ddod â hynny i ben a chael trafodaeth briodol, barchus, ddeallus a thosturiol.
Rwy'n credu bod llawer o bethau yn yr adroddiad y byddai pobl yn y gymuned drawsryweddol yn cytuno â nhw. Mae'r rhestrau aros yn rhy hir. Ers faint y bu pobl yn y gymuned LHDTC+ yn tynnu sylw at hynny? Mae angen i'r gwasanaethau fod yn lleol, wedi'u darparu'n lleol—yn bendant, ac mae angen inni adeiladu'r sylfaen dystiolaeth. Mae pobl yn y gymuned drawsryweddol wedi bod yn gofyn am hynny ers blynyddoedd, felly gadewch inni adeiladu'r dystiolaeth honno i ddeall beth sy'n gweithio mewn gwirionedd. Dyna a wnawn. Fe'i gelwir yn ddull gwyddonol, felly mae'n rhaid iddo fod yn ganolog i hyn.
Nid wyf yn glinigwr ac nid wyf yn berson traws, felly ni allaf siarad gydag awdurdod am y naill neu'r llall o'r pethau hynny, ond rwy'n ddyn hoyw a oedd yn fyw yn yr 1980au, a phan glywaf bobl yn dweud nad oes y fath beth â hunaniaeth draws, mae'n anwiredd, neu nad yw ond yn ganlyniad camdriniaeth, trawma, afiechyd meddwl neu beth bynnag, rwy'n cofio sut brofiad oedd tyfu i fyny'n llanc hoyw yn ei arddegau. Dywedwyd wrthyf mai chwiw ydoedd. Dim ond chwiw dros dro. Yna rhestrwyd cyfunrywioldeb fel anhwylder meddwl gan Gymdeithas Seiciatrig America. Dywedwyd wrthyf fod pobl ddrwg, rheibus yn plagio meddyliau pobl ifanc agored i niwed a hawdd gwneud argraff arnynt, gan hyrwyddo ffordd o fyw neu agenda gyfunrywiol, ac y byddai'r rhai ohonom sy'n ildio iddi yn difaru yn ddiweddarach mewn bywyd. A ydych chi'n gweld? A ydych chi'n gweld y tebygrwydd? Felly, mae'n apêl go iawn. Gadewch inni roi tosturi a pharch a dealltwriaeth yn ôl lle maent i fod, yn ganolog i'r ddadl hon, a meddwl yn enwedig am y bobl ifanc drawsryweddol hyn. Maent yn lleiafrif gorthrymedig—
Adam, you need to conclude, please.
Adam, mae angen ichi orffen, os gwelwch yn dda.
—and they deserve all of our support.
—ac maent yn haeddu cefnogaeth pawb ohonom.
Galwaf ar Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet dros Iechyd a Gofal Cymdeithasol, Eluned Morgan.
I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care, Eluned Morgan.
Diolch yn fawr, Dirprwy Lywydd. I want to focus my comments in today's debate on setting out the work we're involved with to improve gender identity services for children and young people in Wales, in line with both the LGBTQ+ action plan and the Cass review.
The Cass review is key to delivering this commitment and, crucially, the Cass review, which I've read and I welcome, ensures that we take an evidence-based approach to how and when interventions should be made. And I with agree with Adam Price, his suggestion that we need to have respect, understanding and compassion for the issues that we're debating in this report.
I want to thank Dr Hilary Cass and all those who participated in the review of gender identity services for children and young people, which was, of course, focused on services delivered in England. This was a thorough and well-researched review designed to ensure children and young people who are questioning their gender identity or experiencing gender incongruence receive a high standard of care that meets their needs and is safe, holistic and, crucially, evidence based.
Due to the limited number of children and young people who need referrals to these very specialised services in Wales, like many other highly personalised health services, expert gender identity services are provided by NHS England. I'm pleased to say that our referral pathway in Wales, into those English services, already aligns with one of the core Cass recommendations, as it includes an assessment by the child and adolescent mental health service before a referral is made. NHS Wales has also been working with NHS England, as part of the transformation programme for gender services, to ensure we are aligned to the Cass recommendations, as part of the changes NHS England is making to gender identity services for children and young people. These arrangements will ensure the safety and quality of services to safeguard young people in Wales, which surely has to be at the forefront of our concerns. The transformation programme has set up two new children and young people's gender services following the publication of the interim Cass review in February 2022. They opened last month, and will accept referrals from young people from Wales. The waiting list will be managed by the national referral support service—
Diolch yn fawr, Ddirprwy Lywydd. Rwyf am ganolbwyntio fy sylwadau yn y ddadl heddiw ar nodi'r gwaith yr ydym yn rhan ohono i wella gwasanaethau hunaniaeth rhywedd i blant a phobl ifanc yng Nghymru, yn unol â'r cynllun gweithredu LHDTC+ ac adolygiad Cass.
Mae adolygiad Cass yn allweddol i gyflawni'r ymrwymiad hwn ac yn hollbwysig, mae adolygiad Cass, yr wyf wedi'i ddarllen ac yr wyf yn ei groesawu, yn sicrhau ein bod yn mabwysiadu ymagwedd sy'n seiliedig ar dystiolaeth tuag at sut a phryd y dylid gwneud ymyriadau. Ac rwy'n cytuno ag Adam Price, ei awgrym fod angen inni gael parch, dealltwriaeth a thosturi tuag at y materion a drafodwn yn yr adroddiad hwn.
Hoffwn ddiolch i Dr Hilary Cass a phawb a gymerodd ran yn yr adolygiad o wasanaethau hunaniaeth rhywedd i blant a phobl ifanc, a oedd, wrth gwrs, yn canolbwyntio ar wasanaethau a ddarperir yn Lloegr. Roedd hwn yn adolygiad trylwyr ac wedi'i ymchwilio'n dda a gynlluniwyd i sicrhau bod plant a phobl ifanc sy'n cwestiynu eu hunaniaeth rhywedd neu sy'n profi anghydweddiad rhywedd yn derbyn gofal o safon uchel sy'n diwallu eu hanghenion ac sy'n ddiogel, yn gyfannol, ac yn hollbwysig, yn seiliedig ar dystiolaeth.
Oherwydd y nifer gyfyngedig o blant a phobl ifanc sydd angen atgyfeiriadau at y gwasanaethau arbenigol iawn hyn yng Nghymru, fel llawer o wasanaethau iechyd eraill sydd wedi'u personoli'n helaeth, mae gwasanaethau hunaniaeth rhywedd arbenigol yn cael eu darparu gan GIG Lloegr. Rwy'n falch o ddweud bod ein llwybr atgyfeirio yng Nghymru at y gwasanaethau hynny yn Lloegr eisoes yn cyd-fynd ag un o argymhellion craidd Cass, gan ei fod yn cynnwys asesiad gan y gwasanaeth iechyd meddwl plant a'r glasoed cyn gwneud atgyfeiriad. Hefyd, mae GIG Cymru wedi bod yn gweithio gyda GIG Lloegr yn rhan o'r rhaglen drawsnewid ar gyfer gwasanaethau rhywedd i sicrhau ein bod yn cyd-fynd ag argymhellion Cass, yn rhan o'r newidiadau y mae GIG Lloegr yn eu gwneud i wasanaethau hunaniaeth rhywedd i blant a phobl ifanc. Bydd y trefniadau hyn yn sicrhau diogelwch ac ansawdd gwasanaethau i ddiogelu pobl ifanc yng Nghymru, y mae'n rhaid inni eu rhoi ar y blaen yn ein hystyriaethau. Mae'r rhaglen drawsnewid wedi sefydlu dau wasanaeth rhywedd plant a phobl ifanc newydd yn dilyn cyhoeddi adolygiad interim Cass ym mis Chwefror 2022. Fe wnaethant agor fis diwethaf, a byddant yn derbyn atgyfeiriadau gan bobl ifanc o Gymru. Bydd y rhestr aros yn cael ei rheoli gan y gwasanaeth cymorth atgyfeirio cenedlaethol—
Will you take an intervention?
A wnewch chi dderbyn ymyriad?
If you don't mind, no, I'm going to persevere.
The national children and young people's gender dysphoria research oversight board has also been set up and is chaired by Sir Simon Wessely to support wider research into children's gender services. The new NHS Wales joint commissioning committee is working with the transformation programme as it moves to the next stages of the delivery plan. This includes supporting the newly opened children and young people's gender services in London and the north-west, and accelerating work to develop additional regional services and consider how they can be brought closer to home for young people in Wales. This is delivering on our commitment to review the pathway for children in Wales to access gender identity services.
The Cass review includes recommendations for professional training and a competency framework to be developed, not just for specialist NHS staff working in gender identity services, but for clinicians in secondary, primary and community care. The NHS Wales joint commissioning committee is already working with Health Education and Improvement Wales to take this forward.
Dirprwy Lywydd, I'll now turn to puberty blockers. The Cass review concluded that there is not enough evidence to support the safety or clinical effectiveness of puberty-suppressing hormones in the treatment of gender dysphoria to make the treatment routinely available. They are not available as a routine commissioning treatment option for children and young people in Wales who are referred via our gender identity services pathway, but NHS England is aiming to open a study into the use of puberty blockers in December to gather further evidence to inform clinical decision making in the future. Young people who are referred to the services from Wales to England will potentially be eligible to take part in this study.
One of the recommendations of the Cass review, which looked specifically at services for children and young people, was to consider how interventions impact on outcomes. For that to happen, there is a need to monitor the long-term impact through tracking into adult gender services. The Welsh gender service, which is based in Cardiff but also has a satellite clinic in north Wales, provides services for people who are 18 and over. This service is commissioned by the NHS Wales joint commissioning committee, and I have instructed it to take on board the recommendations of the Cass report and ensure these adult services are collecting relevant data in a consistent and comprehensive manner to support an evidence-based approach to this issue.
While the main focus of the Cass review was clinical services, it includes some important recommendations for other public services, which we will carefully consider in Wales. The Cabinet Secretary for Education has been working on national guidance to support gender questioning and trans learners. She's decided to take more time in the development of this guidance in order to fully consider and be informed by the best available evidence, including the findings of the Cass review and the views of stakeholders. I know that ensuring the well-being of learners is her key priority. We will publish this important guidance to support schools in line with our commitment to ensure LGBTQ+ inclusive education. The LGBTQ+ action plan for Wales sets out our commitment to defend the dignity of trans and non-binary people and to deliver on our goal to make Wales the most LGBTQ+ friendly nation in Europe.
Os nad oes ots gennych, na wnaf, rwy'n mynd i barhau.
Mae'r bwrdd goruchwylio cenedlaethol ar gyfer ymchwil dysfforia rhywedd plant a phobl ifanc hefyd wedi'i sefydlu a chaiff ei gadeirio gan Syr Simon Wessely i gefnogi ymchwil ehangach i wasanaethau rhywedd plant. Mae cyd-bwyllgor comisiynu newydd GIG Cymru yn gweithio gyda'r rhaglen drawsnewid wrth iddi symud at gamau nesaf y cynllun cyflawni. Mae hyn yn cynnwys cefnogi'r gwasanaethau rhywedd plant a phobl ifanc sydd newydd eu hagor yn Llundain a gogledd-orllewin Lloegr, a chyflymu gwaith i ddatblygu gwasanaethau rhanbarthol ychwanegol ac ystyried sut y gellir eu dwyn yn nes adref i bobl ifanc yng Nghymru. Mae hyn yn cyflawni ein hymrwymiad i adolygu'r llwybr i blant yng Nghymru gael mynediad at wasanaethau hunaniaeth rhywedd.
Mae adolygiad Cass yn cynnwys argymhellion ar gyfer hyfforddiant proffesiynol a fframwaith cymhwysedd i'w ddatblygu, nid yn unig ar gyfer staff arbenigol y GIG sy'n gweithio mewn gwasanaethau hunaniaeth rhywedd, ond i glinigwyr mewn gofal eilaidd, sylfaenol a chymunedol. Mae cyd-bwyllgor comisiynu GIG Cymru eisoes yn gweithio gydag Addysg a Gwella Iechyd Cymru i fwrw ymlaen â hyn.
Ddirprwy Lywydd, rwyf am droi nawr at feddyginiaethau atal y glasoed. Daeth adolygiad Cass i'r casgliad nad oes digon o dystiolaeth i gefnogi diogelwch neu effeithiolrwydd clinigol hormonau atal y glasoed wrth drin dysfforia rhywedd i sicrhau bod y driniaeth ar gael fel mater o drefn. Nid ydynt ar gael fel opsiwn triniaeth gomisiynu reolaidd ar gyfer plant a phobl ifanc yng Nghymru sy'n cael eu hatgyfeirio drwy ein llwybr gwasanaethau hunaniaeth rhywedd, ond mae GIG Lloegr yn bwriadu agor astudiaeth i'r defnydd o feddyginiaethau atal y glasoed ym mis Rhagfyr i gasglu rhagor o dystiolaeth i lywio penderfyniadau clinigol yn y dyfodol. Mae'n bosibl y bydd pobl ifanc sy'n cael eu hatgyfeirio at y gwasanaethau o Gymru i Loegr yn gymwys i gymryd rhan yn yr astudiaeth hon.
Un o argymhellion adolygiad Cass, a oedd yn edrych yn benodol ar wasanaethau i blant a phobl ifanc, oedd ystyried sut mae ymyriadau'n effeithio ar ganlyniadau. Er mwyn i hynny ddigwydd, mae angen monitro'r effaith hirdymor drwy olrhain i wasanaethau rhywedd oedolion. Mae'r gwasanaeth rhywedd Cymreig, sydd wedi'i leoli yng Nghaerdydd ond sydd hefyd ag is-glinig yng ngogledd Cymru, yn darparu gwasanaethau i bobl sy'n 18 oed a hŷn. Comisiynir y gwasanaeth hwn gan gyd-bwyllgor comisiynu GIG Cymru, ac rwyf wedi ei gyfarwyddo i ystyried argymhellion adroddiad Cass a sicrhau bod y gwasanaethau oedolion hyn yn casglu data perthnasol mewn modd cyson a chynhwysfawr i gefnogi dull sy'n seiliedig ar dystiolaeth o weithredu ar y mater hwn.
Er mai prif ffocws adolygiad Cass oedd gwasanaethau clinigol, mae'n cynnwys rhai argymhellion pwysig ar gyfer gwasanaethau cyhoeddus eraill, y byddwn yn eu hystyried yn ofalus yng Nghymru. Mae Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet dros Addysg wedi bod yn gweithio ar ganllawiau cenedlaethol i gefnogi cwestiynu rhywedd a dysgwyr traws. Mae hi wedi penderfynu rhoi mwy o amser i ddatblygu'r canllawiau hyn er mwyn ystyried yn llawn a chael ei llywio gan y dystiolaeth orau sydd ar gael, gan gynnwys canfyddiadau adolygiad Cass a barn rhanddeiliaid. Rwy'n gwybod mai sicrhau lles dysgwyr yw ei blaenoriaeth allweddol. Byddwn yn cyhoeddi'r canllawiau pwysig hyn i gefnogi ysgolion yn unol â'n hymrwymiad i sicrhau addysg gynhwysol LHDTC+. Mae'r cynllun gweithredu LHDTC+ i Gymru yn nodi ein hymrwymiad i amddiffyn urddas pobl draws ac anneuaidd a chyflawni ein nod o wneud Cymru y genedl fwyaf cyfeillgar i LHDTC + yn Ewrop.
Minister, you need to conclude now, please.
Weinidog, mae angen ichi ddod i ben nawr, os gwelwch yn dda.
Finally, I think it's important we bear in mind Dr Cass's own words that:
'The surrounding noise and increasingly toxic, ideological and polarised public debate has made the work of the Review significantly harder and does nothing to serve the children and young people who may already be subject to significant minority stress.'
'A compassionate and kind society remembers that there are real children, young people, families, carers and clinicians behind the headlines.'
Llywydd, the Cass report is an important review, which must be taken seriously. We want to ensure we provide appropriate and sensitive support to all those young people who are at the heart of the services. It's imperative that we act as a kind society—
Yn olaf, rwy'n credu ei bod yn bwysig cofio geiriau Dr Cass ei hun:
'Mae'r synau o'n cwmpas a'r ddadl gyhoeddus gynyddol wenwynig, ideolegol a phegynol wedi gwneud gwaith yr Adolygiad yn llawer anos ac nid yw'n gwneud dim i wasanaethu'r plant a'r bobl ifanc a allai fod yn agored i straen lleiafrifol sylweddol eisoes.'
'Mae cymdeithas dosturiol a charedig yn cofio bod plant, pobl ifanc, teuluoedd, gofalwyr a chlinigwyr go iawn y tu ôl i'r penawdau.'
Lywydd, mae adroddiad Cass yn adolygiad pwysig, ac mae'n rhaid inni fod o ddifrif yn ei gylch. Rydym am sicrhau ein bod yn darparu cefnogaeth briodol a sensitif i'r holl bobl ifanc sydd yn y canol yn y gwasanaethau. Mae'n hanfodol ein bod yn gweithredu fel cymdeithas garedig—
Cabinet Secretary, you do need to conclude.
Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet, mae angen ichi orffen.
—when dealing with these sensitive issues.
—wrth ymdrin â'r materion sensitif hyn.
Galwaf ar Gareth Davies i ymateb i'r ddadl.
I call on Gareth Davies to reply to the debate.
Diolch, Deputy Llywydd. I haven't got long, but I just want to thank the Minister for that statement that you've given to the Senedd this afternoon, but it's come as the result of an opposition debate to get a statement out of the Government on this important issue. My colleague, Laura Anne Jones, has raised this in the Senedd Chamber, I think two or three times, without a tangible response from the Government. It's not a good way to govern, Minister, if it has to take an opposition debate to get a statement from the Government on such an important issue that affects the lives of children here in Wales, and I hope that, along with the contributions from Laura Anne Jones and Sam Rowlands this afternoon, will be enough to command the support of our motion, unamended, in tonight’s vote. Thank you.
Diolch, Ddirprwy Lywydd. Nid oes gennyf lawer o amser, ond hoffwn ddiolch i'r Gweinidog am y datganiad a roddwyd gennych i'r Senedd y prynhawn yma, ond mae wedi dod o ganlyniad i ddadl wrthblaid i gael datganiad gan y Llywodraeth ar y mater pwysig hwn. Mae fy nghyd-Aelod, Laura Anne Jones, wedi codi hyn yn Siambr y Senedd ar ddau neu dri achlysur, rwy'n credu, heb ymateb pendant gan y Llywodraeth. Nid yw'n ffordd dda o lywodraethu, Weinidog, os yw'n cymryd dadl wrthblaid i gael datganiad gan y Llywodraeth ar fater mor bwysig sy'n effeithio ar fywydau plant yma yng Nghymru, a gobeithio, gyda chyfraniadau Laura Anne Jones a Sam Rowlands y prynhawn yma, y bydd yn ddigon i ennyn cefnogaeth i'n cynnig, heb ei ddiwygio, yn y bleidlais heno. Diolch.
Y cwestiwn yw: a ddylid derbyn y cynnig heb ei ddiwygio? A oes unrhyw Aelod yn gwrthwynebu? [Gwrthwynebiad.] Oes. Felly, gohirir y bleidlais ar yr eitem hon tan y cyfnod pleidleisio.
The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes. I will defer voting under this item until voting time.
Gohiriwyd y pleidleisio tan y cyfnod pleidleisio.
Voting deferred until voting time.
Detholwyd y gwelliannau canlynol: gwelliant 1 yn enw Jane Hutt, a gwelliant 2 yn enw Heledd Fychan.
The following amendments have been selected: amendment 1 in the name of Jane Hutt, and amendment 2 in the name of Heledd Fychan.
Eitem 7 yw heddiw yw ail ddadl y Ceidwadwyr Cymreig heddiw, rhoddion ymgyrch arweinyddiaeth a chod y Gweinidog—Ministers—Gweinidogion. Thank you. Gweinidogion. Diolch yn fawr. A galwaf ar Andrew R.T. Davies i wneud y cynnig.
Item 7 today is the second Welsh Conservatives debate today—leadership campaign donations and the ministerial code. I call on Andrew R.T. Davies to move the motion.
Cynnig NDM8562 Darren Millar
Cynnig bod y Senedd:
1. Yn cydnabod pryder y cyhoedd ynghylch y posibilrwydd bod cod gweinidogol Llywodraeth Cymru wedi'i dorri mewn perthynas â rhoddion a dderbyniwyd gan y Prif Weinidog.
2. Yn nodi bod y Prif Weinidog wedi derbyn rhodd o £200,000 tuag at ei ymgyrch arweinyddiaeth Llafur Cymru gan y Dauson Environmental Group Limited yn dilyn benthyciad o £400,000 i'r cwmni gan Fanc Datblygu Cymru, a throseddau yn ymwneud â'r amgylchedd.
3. Yn galw ar y Prif Weinidog i benodi cynghorydd annibynnol i'r cod gweinidogol i ymchwilio i unrhyw wrthdaro buddiannau a allai fodoli mewn perthynas â'r rhodd, gan gyfeirio'n benodol at bwyntiau i a ii o baragraff 1.3 o'r cod gweinidogol.
Motion NDM8562 Darren Millar
To propose that the Senedd:
1. Recognises the public concern regarding a potential breach of the Welsh Government's ministerial code in relation to donations received by the First Minister.
2. Notes that the First Minister received a £200,000 donation towards his Welsh Labour leadership campaign from the Dauson Environmental Group Limited following a £400,000 loan to the company from the Development Bank of Wales, and environment-related offences.
3. Calls on the First Minister to appoint an independent advisor to the ministerial code to investigate any conflict of interest that may exist in relation to the donation, with particular reference to points i and ii of paragraph 1.3 of the ministerial code.
Cynigiwyd y cynnig.
Motion moved.
Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I thought you were looking for me to translate then, Deputy Presiding Officer.
Diolch yn fawr, Ddirprwy Lywydd. Roeddwn i'n meddwl eich bod chi'n disgwyl imi gyfieithu yn y fan honno, Ddirprwy Lywydd.
I always look to you for help, Andrew.
Rwyf bob amser yn troi atoch am help, Andrew.
Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. Do we need to wait for the First Minister to come, because, obviously, the debate is on the First Minister? Or is there another Minister responding?
Diolch, Ddirprwy Lywydd. A oes angen inni aros i'r Prif Weinidog ddod, oherwydd, yn amlwg, mae'r ddadl am y Prif Weinidog? Neu a oes Gweinidog arall yn ymateb?
He's not responding to the debate.
Nid yw'n ymateb i'r ddadl.
Oh. Oh, right. That is disappointing, that is. Okay, the First Minister hasn't come to a debate about, obviously, the conduct related to the ministerial code, which, on the statement of ministerial responsibilities, he is responsible for the ministerial code. So, I think that's disappointing, to say the least, that he hasn't turned up to this afternoon’s debate.
The debate is relatively straightforward and simple that we've tabled this afternoon. It says 'recognise', 'note', and calls for an outcome, it does. It calls for recognising the public concern and public worry, shall we say, of the actions that have gone on in connection to the donations to the First Minister. I don't think anyone can dispute that, with the level of public interest that has been shown in this particular aspect. And rightly so. There will be a debate later on this afternoon about the totality of that debate and the amount of money that was put forward in that donation, and, as we heard in First Minister's questions yesterday, there were additional substantial donations made to the First Minister's campaign from a taxi firm and others, all correctly declared and all identified and no rule breaking. I want to be quite clear on that—there is no rule breaking. But the perception—the perception—of such substantial moneys coming into a campaign to lead the country of Wales as First Minister has caused considerable public disquiet as well as considerable political disquiet amongst the Labour Party and other political parties. I just need to read through the names: Beth Winters, the Member of Parliament for Cynon Valley; Andrew Morgan, the leader of the Welsh Local Government Association; Jeremy Miles, the economy Minister, have all stated that they would not have taken that donation. And during the campaign itself, the Member of Parliament for Llanelli, Nia Griffiths, indicated on an interview on a Welsh language programme that, actually, if she had known about this donation, she might well have changed her voting choice. That is the impact that this could have had on such a serious election and the outcome to lead the country by being the First Minister of Wales. So, it is undisputable that there is recognition of the anger of the public and politicians alike when it comes to this particular matter.
It then goes on to highlight the problem. And the problem is quite clear—it is around the significant donation, as I've said in my opening remarks, from Dauson, the recycling company, which is obviously headed up by Mr Neal and owned by Mr Neal. Mr Neal has been proven to have two criminal convictions about environmental infringements on the Gwent levels. That is a matter of record.
And also there are other issues, which have been highlighted, of concern, such as the loan from the Development Bank of Wales, a lender of last resort, I might add. Again, I am not insinuating that anything has been undertaken underhand here, but when in the same financial year you are talking of a company taking £400,000 from a lender of last resort and then making a donation of £200,000, half that amount, to an individual—not to a party, not to a group, but to an individual and the individual's campaign to secure office—that surely is a matter of concern to all involved in public life. I would hope that that would find consensus around this Chamber. Then there is the remedy that, ultimately, instead of politicians making these assertions and the public showing disquiet, you can use the ministerial code and the precedent that Carwyn Jones set back in 2017 of appointing an independent person to advise on what might be a perceived or real breach of that ministerial code. And the ministerial code is quite clear in the point that we highlight, where it says that
'Ministers should not accept any gift or hospitality which might, or might reasonably appear'—.
Now, I think a reasonable person would say that £200,000, £25,000, could reasonably be seen as securing influence. That reasonable person deserves an answer, and the way to get that answer would be to appoint an independent person to look into this matter, advise the First Minister on what action should be taken, rather than the current set-up, where a reference under the ministerial code is judged and determined on by the First Minister himself, who is the subject of the complaint here that has been levelled, and the charge that has been levelled. I don't think any reasonable person could disagree with the three points that I've made and the three points that are in that motion before the Senedd tonight. And we are looking to put a solution on the table to rectify it.
So, I would hope that all Members will vote for this motion. I regret that the Government have put a 'delete all' amendment down, but I understand why they've done that. But what we are looking for is to allay the public concern, address the reason for that concern and put a solution in place when it comes to the ministerial code. Who on earth could disagree with that? What is there to hide? I urge the Senedd to support the Welsh Conservatives motion that is before us tonight.
O. O, iawn. Mae hynny'n siomedig. Iawn, nid yw'r Prif Weinidog wedi dod i ddadl ynghylch yr ymddygiad sy'n gysylltiedig â chod y Gweinidogion, ac ar y datganiad o gyfrifoldebau gweinidogol, ef sy'n gyfrifol am god y Gweinidogion. Felly, rwy'n credu bod hynny'n siomedig, a dweud y lleiaf, nad yw wedi dod i'r ddadl y prynhawn yma.
Mae'r ddadl a gyflwynwyd gennym y prynhawn yma yn gymharol syml. Mae'n dweud 'cydnabod', 'nodi', ac yn galw am ganlyniad. Mae'n galw am gydnabod pryder y cyhoedd ynghylch y camau sydd wedi digwydd yn gysylltiedig â'r rhoddion i'r Prif Weinidog. Nid wyf yn credu y gall unrhyw un anghytuno â hynny, gyda'r lefel o ddiddordeb cyhoeddus a ddangoswyd yn yr agwedd benodol hon. Ac yn briodol felly. Bydd dadl yn ddiweddarach y prynhawn yma ynghylch y ddadl honno yn ei chyfanrwydd a faint o arian a gyflwynwyd yn y rhodd honno, ac fel y clywsom yn y cwestiynau i'r Prif Weinidog ddoe, fe wnaed rhoddion ychwanegol sylweddol i ymgyrch y Prif Weinidog gan gwmni tacsis ac eraill, pob un wedi'i ddatgan yn gywir a phob un wedi'i nodi a heb dorri rheolau. Rwyf eisiau bod yn hollol glir ynglŷn â hynny—ni thorrwyd unrhyw reolau. Ond mae'r canfyddiad—y canfyddiad—o arian mor sylweddol yn dod i ymgyrch i arwain Cymru fel Prif Weinidog Cymru wedi achosi cryn anniddigrwydd cyhoeddus yn ogystal ag anesmwythyd gwleidyddol sylweddol ymhlith y Blaid Lafur a phleidiau gwleidyddol eraill. Rwyf am ddarllen drwy'r enwau: mae Beth Winters, Aelod Seneddol Cwm Cynon; Andrew Morgan, arweinydd Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru; Jeremy Miles, Gweinidog yr Economi, i gyd wedi dweud na fyddent hwy wedi derbyn y rhodd honno. Ac yn ystod yr ymgyrch ei hun, nododd yr Aelod Seneddol dros Lanelli, Nia Griffiths, ar gyfweliad ar raglen Gymraeg, pe bai hi wedi gwybod am y rhodd hon, y byddai'n ddigon posibl y byddai wedi newid ei phleidlais. Dyna'r effaith y gallai hyn fod wedi'i chael ar etholiad mor ddifrifol a'r canlyniad i arwain y wlad drwy fod yn Brif Weinidog Cymru. Felly, mae'n ddiamheuol fod yna ddicter wedi'i nodi ymhlith y cyhoedd a gwleidyddion fel ei gilydd ar y mater penodol hwn.
Wedyn, mae'n mynd rhagddo i amlygu'r broblem. Ac mae'r broblem yn eithaf clir—mae'n ymwneud â'r rhodd sylweddol, fel y dywedais yn fy sylwadau agoriadol, gan Dauson, y cwmni ailgylchu, sy'n cael ei arwain gan Mr Neal ac sy'n eiddo i Mr Neal. Profwyd bod gan Mr Neal ddwy euogfarn droseddol am droseddau amgylcheddol ar wastadeddau Gwent. Mae hynny wedi'i gofnodi.
Ac mae yna faterion eraill sy'n peri pryder, ac sydd wedi cael sylw, megis y benthyciad gan Fanc Datblygu Cymru, benthyciwr pan fetha popeth arall, gallwn ychwanegu. Unwaith eto, nid wyf yn awgrymu bod unrhyw beth camweddus wedi'i wneud yma, ond pan fyddwch yn yr un flwyddyn ariannol yn sôn am gwmni'n cael £400,000 gan fenthyciwr pan fetha popeth arall ac yna'n gwneud cyfraniad o £200,000, hanner y swm hwnnw, i unigolyn—nid i blaid, nid i grŵp, ond i unigolyn ac ymgyrch yr unigolyn i gael swydd—mae hynny'n sicr yn fater o bryder i bawb sy'n ymwneud â bywyd cyhoeddus. Byddwn yn gobeithio y byddai consensws ynglŷn â hynny o amgylch y Siambr hon. Yna, yn lle bod gwleidyddion yn gwneud yr honiadau hyn a'r cyhoedd yn dangos anesmwythder, ceir yr unioniad yn y pen draw y gallwch ddefnyddio cod y Gweinidogion a'r cynsail a osododd Carwyn Jones yn ôl yn 2017 o benodi person annibynnol i gynghori ar yr hyn a allai fod yn doriad canfyddedig neu wirioneddol o'r cod gweinidogol hwnnw. Ac mae cod y Gweinidogion yn eithaf clir ar y pwynt a nodwn, lle mae'n dweud
'Ni ddylai'r Gweinidogion dderbyn unrhyw rodd neu letygarwch a allai...neu a allai, yn rhesymol, roi’r argraff'—.
Nawr, rwy'n credu y byddai person rhesymol yn dweud y gallai £200,000, £25,000, gael ei ystyried yn rhesymol fel rhywbeth sy'n sicrhau dylanwad. Mae'r person rhesymol hwnnw'n haeddu ateb, a'r ffordd o gael yr ateb hwnnw fyddai penodi person annibynnol i edrych ar y mater, cynghori'r Prif Weinidog ar ba gamau y dylid eu cymryd, yn hytrach na'r drefn bresennol, lle caiff cyfeiriad o dan god y Gweinidogion ei farnu a'i benderfynu gan y Prif Weinidog ei hun, sy'n destun y gŵyn a'r cyhuddiad. Nid wyf yn credu y gallai unrhyw berson rhesymol anghytuno â'r tri phwynt a wneuthum a'r tri phwynt sydd yn y cynnig ger bron y Senedd heno. Ac rydym yn ceisio rhoi ateb ar y bwrdd i'w gywiro.
Felly, rwy'n gobeithio y bydd pob Aelod yn pleidleisio dros y cynnig hwn. Mae'n ddrwg gennyf fod y Llywodraeth wedi cynnig gwelliant 'dileu popeth', ond rwy'n deall pam eu bod wedi gwneud hynny. Ond yr hyn rydym ni'n ceisio ei wneud yw tawelu pryder y cyhoedd, mynd i'r afael â'r rheswm dros y pryder hwnnw a rhoi ateb ar waith o ran cod y Gweinidogion. Pwy ar y ddaear a allai anghytuno â hynny? Beth sydd i'w guddio? Rwy'n annog y Senedd i gefnogi cynnig y Ceidwadwyr Cymreig sydd ger ein bron heno.
Rwyf wedi dethol y ddau welliant i'r cynnig. Galwaf ar y Trefnydd i gynnig yn ffurfiol welliant 1, a gyflwynwyd yn ei henw hi.
I have selected two amendments to the motion. I call on the Trefnydd to move formally amendment 1, tabled in her name.
Gwelliant 1—Jane Hutt
Dileu popeth a rhoi yn ei le:
Cynnig bod y Senedd:
1. Yn cydnabod bod Llywodraeth Cymru yn cymryd Cod y Gweinidogion, a'r cyfrifoldebau y mae'n eu gosod ar Weinidogion Cymru, o ddifrif.
2. Yn nodi bod y penderfyniadau a wneir gan Fanc Datblygu Cymru ynghylch benthyca a buddsoddi yn cael eu gwneud yn gwbl annibynnol ar Lywodraeth Cymru.
Amendment 1—Jane Hutt
Delete all and replace with:
To propose that the Senedd:
1. Recognises that the Welsh Government takes seriously the Ministerial Code and the responsibilities it places upon Welsh Ministers.
2. Notes that loan and investment decisions taken by the Development Bank of Wales are done so entirely independently of the Welsh Government.
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 1.
Amendment 1 moved.
Yn ffurfiol.
Formally.
A galwaf ar Rhun ap Iorwerth i gynnig gwelliant 2, a gyflwynwyd yn enw Heledd Fychan.
And I call on Rhun ap Iorwerth to move amendment 2, tabled in the name of Heledd Fychan.
Gwelliant 2—Heledd Fychan
Ychwanegu pwyntiau newydd ar ddiwedd y cynnig:
Yn gresynu:
a) nad yw'r Prif Weinidog wedi dychwelyd y rhodd i Dauson Environmental; a
b) nad yw'r Blaid Lafur wedi ymrwymo i ddychwelyd unrhyw rodd sydd yn weddill gan Dauson Environmental.
Amendment 2—Heledd Fychan
Add as new point at end of motion:
Regrets:
a) that the First Minister has not returned the donation to Dauson Environmental; and
b) that the Labour Party has not committed to returning any of the remaining donation from Dauson Environmental.
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 2.
Amendment 2 moved.
Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Wythnos nesaf, rydyn ni'n dathlu 25 mlynedd ers sefydlu ein Senedd ein hunain—cyfle i wneud pethau yn wahanol yma yng Nghymru, i wneud pethau'n well. Ac oherwydd y cyd-destun hwnnw, dwi, fel cymaint o bobl eraill, yn teimlo dicter a rhwystredigaeth am y llanast ynglŷn â'r rhoddion i ymgyrch arweinyddiaeth y Prif Weinidog. Mae'n adlais, onid ydy hi, o'r sgandalau sydd wedi bod mor nodweddiadol yn San Steffan dros y blynyddoedd diwethaf. A'r mwyaf rydych chi'n tyrchu yn fan hyn, y mwyaf o gwestiynau sy'n dod i'r amlwg. Mae o'n difrïo ein democratiaeth ni, ac yn dadrithio etholwyr.
Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. Next week, we will celebrate 25 years since the establishment of our own Parliament—an opportunity for us to do things slightly differently here in Wales, and to do things better. And it's because of that context that I, like so many people, feel anger and frustration about the turmoil regarding the donations to the First Minister's leadership campaign. It's an echo, isn't it, of the type of scandals that have been so prominent in or characteristic of Westminster politics in recent years. And the more you dig here, the more the questions emerge. It discredits our democracy and disillusions voters.
Now, the First Minister's 'nothing to see here' attitude is at best complacent, at worst contemptuous, towards the people we're here to serve. And people will come to their own judgment about his absence here this afternoon. So, Plaid Cymru's ask today is simple and is reflected in our amendment to the motion. Will the First Minister hand back the £200,000 he received from the convicted environmental polluter, Dauson Environmental Group Ltd? And should there be any unspent funds from that donation, will the Labour Party return that money? Two fundamental questions, arising from two fundamental principles: integrity and duty—integrity has to be a constant thread throughout our politics if we're to earn voters' trust—and duty because a First Minister has a duty to lead by example, to uphold good judgment always.
Now, as the motion before us today states, the ministerial code is clear:
'Ministers must ensure that no conflict arises, or appears to arise, between their public duties and their private interests'
and
'Ministers should not accept any gift or hospitality which might, or might reasonably appear to, compromise their judgement or place them under an improper obligation'.
Now, I wrote to the Permanent Secretary, asking for a review. I was told that it wasn't in his remit to do so. But the First Minister can call an independent investigation, and the case, I believe, for an external and wholly independent review is clear, and we support the main motion. And the more the First Minister disputes this, the more his judgment is brought into question, and we believe that our amendments would strengthen the calls for action. Now, we know Labour Members also, both here and at Westminster and in local government, have expressed their alarm in public and in private at the First Minister’s decision to accept the donation and his subsequent handling of the matter. I would therefore urge everyone who is of that view to support the motion and the amendments as a sign that whether it’s the First Minister or the rest of us in this Chamber, we are determined to earn the trust of the Welsh electorate.
Nawr, mae agwedd 'dim i'w weld yma' y Prif Weinidog ar y gorau yn hunanfodlon, ac ar y gwaethaf yn ddirmygus, tuag at y bobl yr ydym yma i'w gwasanaethu. A bydd pobl yn ffurfio'u barn eu hunain am ei absenoldeb yma y prynhawn yma. Felly, mae'r hyn y mae Plaid Cymru yn ei ofyn heddiw yn syml a chaiff ei adlewyrchu yn ein gwelliant i'r cynnig. A wnaiff y Prif Weinidog ddychwelyd y £200,000 a gafodd gan y llygrydd amgylcheddol a gafwyd yn euog, Dauson Environmental Group Ltd? Ac os oes unrhyw arian heb ei wario o'r rhodd honno, a wnaiff y Blaid Lafur ddychwelyd yr arian hwnnw? Dau gwestiwn sylfaenol, sy'n deillio o ddwy egwyddor sylfaenol: uniondeb a dyletswydd—rhaid i uniondeb fod yn llinyn cyson yn ein gwleidyddiaeth drwyddi draw os ydym am ennill ymddiriedaeth pleidleiswyr—a dyletswydd oherwydd bod gan Brif Weinidog ddyletswydd i arwain drwy esiampl, i arfer doethineb bob amser.
Nawr, fel mae'r cynnig sydd ger ein bron heddiw yn nodi, mae cod y Gweinidogion yn glir:
'Rhaid i'r Gweinidogion sicrhau nad oes unrhyw wrthdaro, nac unrhyw argraff bod gwrthdaro, rhwng eu dyletswyddau cyhoeddus a'u buddiannau preifat'
ac
'Ni ddylai'r Gweinidogion dderbyn unrhyw rodd neu letygarwch a allai godi amheuon am ddoethineb eu barn neu a allai eu rhoi o dan rwymedigaeth amhriodol neu a allai, yn rhesymol, roi’r argraff honno.'
Nawr, ysgrifennais at yr Ysgrifennydd Parhaol, yn gofyn am adolygiad. Dywedwyd wrthyf nad oedd gwneud hynny yn rhan o'i gylch gorchwyl. Ond gall y Prif Weinidog alw ymchwiliad annibynnol, ac rwy'n credu bod yr achos dros adolygiad allanol a chwbl annibynnol yn glir, ac rydym yn cefnogi'r prif gynnig. A po fwyaf y mae'r Prif Weinidog yn dadlau yn erbyn hyn, y mwyaf y mae ei ddoethineb yn cael ei gwestiynu, a chredwn y byddai ein gwelliannau'n cryfhau'r galwadau am weithredu. Nawr, fe wyddom fod Aelodau Llafur hefyd, yma ac yn San Steffan ac mewn llywodraeth leol, wedi mynegi eu braw yn gyhoeddus ac yn breifat ynglŷn â phenderfyniad y Prif Weinidog i dderbyn y rhodd a'r modd y gwnaeth ymdrin â'r mater wedyn. Felly, hoffwn annog pawb sydd o'r farn honno i gefnogi'r cynnig a'r gwelliannau fel arwydd ein bod yn benderfynol o ennill ymddiriedaeth etholwyr Cymru, boed yn Brif Weinidog neu'r gweddill ohonom yn y Siambr hon.
Daeth y Llywydd i’r Gadair.
The Llywydd took the Chair.
I think I would be described as a reasonable person, I would hope, and I have to say that I disagree with everything that Andrew R.T. Davies has said. I’m not going to try and put any heat into at least this contribution. I will give some examples in the next contribution of some of the hypocrisy that exists, but we are, for the first time, asking for a politician who’s obeyed all the rules—demonstrably obeyed all the rules—to be investigated, and I think that is frankly absurd.
The code of conduct for Ministers has been addressed; it was addressed by the previous First Minister, who instigated an independent investigation, and no breach was found. Therefore, I don’t know what further can be done on that count. But the rest of it then becomes subjective and becomes a very subjective judgment that has already been addressed by the previous First Minister.
I’ve set myself some questions and I’ve investigated these myself; I’ve been very careful to do so. First of all: was the donation properly registered? Categorically and unequivocally, yes, it was.
Rwy'n credu y byddwn i'n cael fy nisgrifio fel person rhesymol, rwy'n gobeithio, ac mae'n rhaid imi ddweud fy mod yn anghytuno â phopeth y mae Andrew R.T. Davies wedi'i ddweud. Nid wyf yn mynd i geisio rhoi unrhyw wres i mewn i'r cyfraniad hwn o leiaf. Fe roddaf rai enghreifftiau yn y cyfraniad nesaf o beth o'r rhagrith sy'n bodoli, ond am y tro cyntaf, rydym yn gofyn i wleidydd sydd wedi ufuddhau i'r holl reolau—sy'n amlwg wedi ufuddhau i'r holl reolau—gael ei ymchwilio, a chredaf fod hynny'n gwbl hurt.
Cyfeiriwyd at god ymddygiad y Gweinidogion; cafodd sylw gan y Prif Weinidog blaenorol, a gychwynnodd ymchwiliad annibynnol, ac ni ddaethpwyd o hyd i unrhyw dramgwydd. Felly, nid wyf yn gwybod beth arall y gellir ei wneud ynglŷn â hynny. Ond mae'r gweddill wedyn yn dod yn oddrychol ac yn dod yn farn oddrychol iawn sydd eisoes wedi cael sylw gan y Prif Weinidog blaenorol.
Rwyf wedi gofyn rhai cwestiynau i mi fy hun ac wedi ymchwilio i'r rhain fy hun; roeddwn yn ofalus iawn i wneud hynny. Yn gyntaf oll: a oedd y rhodd wedi'i chofrestru'n briodol? Yn bendant ac yn ddiamwys, oedd.
I’m grateful to you for taking the intervention. I’m just querying: did you say that this matter has been investigated by the previous First Minister?
Rwy'n ddiolchgar i chi am dderbyn yr ymyriad. Rwyf am holi: a wnaethoch chi ddweud bod y Prif Weinidog blaenorol wedi ymchwilio i'r mater hwn?
Yes.
Do.
Well, not all of the information was in the public domain, available for public scrutiny, prior to the previous First Minister investigating matters, including the convictions related to this company and the links to the taxi firm—
Wel, nid oedd yr holl wybodaeth yn y parth cyhoeddus, ar gael ar gyfer craffu cyhoeddus, cyn i'r Prif Weinidog blaenorol ymchwilio i faterion, gan gynnwys yr euogfarnau sy'n gysylltiedig â'r cwmni hwn a'r cysylltiadau â'r cwmni tacsis—
Are you making a speech or an intervention?
A ydych chi'n gwneud araith neu ymyriad?
I'm just asking you; it's a genuine question.
Rwy'n gofyn i chi; mae'n gwestiwn go iawn.
Okay. Can I respond? So, you've taken up 20 seconds of my time already—
O'r gorau. A gaf i ymateb? Felly, rydych chi wedi cymryd 20 eiliad o fy amser yn barod—
No, I haven't.
Naddo.
—I probably won't have that back. [Interruption.] The issues—
—mae'n annhebygol y caf i hynny yn ôl. [Torri ar draws.] Y materion—
You've been very generous, Hefin. Members who take interventions should always take that into account.
Rydych chi wedi bod yn hael iawn, Hefin. Dylai Aelodau sy'n derbyn ymyriadau ystyried hynny bob amser.
The issues that were addressed by the First Minister, most of it was already out there. I think this idea—[Interruption.] Give me a chance. This idea that the more you dig, the more you find; actually, the more you dig, the less you find. But the issues that have come up since, I've addressed in my following questions.
Was there a chance that Vaughan Gething could influence any subsequent planning decision? Absolutely, categorically not, because the Minister who takes the planning decision is not taking that decision on behalf of the Welsh Government; they're taking a quasi-judicial decision to intervene in a planning dispute that the inspector has investigated, so that question is answered.
Could Vaughan Gething have tried to influence the Development Bank of Wales on their loan to the company? Perhaps that's what you mean by what's developed since. Well, absolutely not, because I asked them in committee, and Paul Davies was there. He saw them answer the question. In the eight years that Giles Thorley has been chief executive of the Development Bank of Wales, at no stage has any Minister tried to influence a loan, and he said in agreement with me that it would be inconceivable. [Interruption.]
No, I'm going to have to—. I've run out of time; I've only got three minutes. Maybe the next debate.
It would be inconceivable that any Minister, including the First Minister, would even try to do so. Did he try to do so? Absolutely, categorically not.
So, all of the evidence, all of the evidence that we've talked about has been addressed. What are we now trying to investigate? I don't think we're trying to investigate anything. What the Conservatives are trying to do is keep the story running, and Andrew R.T. Davies says in the Western Mail article—I do read his articles—that he wants to move on. If he wants to move on, he can start asking questions about the things we care about: the cost of living, children in care. These are the kinds of things he could start asking about at First Minister's questions instead of just going on about this non-issue.
Y materion yr aeth y Prif Weinidog i'r afael â nhw, roedd y rhan fwyaf ohono eisoes allan yno. Rwy'n meddwl bod y syniad—[Torri ar draws.] Rhowch gyfle i mi. Y syniad o po fwyaf y cloddiwch, y mwyaf y gwnewch chi ei ddarganfod; mewn gwirionedd, po fwyaf y cloddiwch, y lleiaf y gwnewch chi ei ddarganfod. Ond rwyf wedi rhoi sylw i'r materion sydd wedi codi ers hynny yn y cwestiynau canlynol.
A oedd cyfle i Vaughan Gething ddylanwadu ar unrhyw benderfyniad cynllunio dilynol? Yn bendant iawn, na, oherwydd nid yw'r Gweinidog sy'n gwneud y penderfyniad cynllunio yn gwneud y penderfyniad hwnnw ar ran Llywodraeth Cymru; maent yn gwneud penderfyniad lled-farnwrol i ymyrryd mewn anghydfod cynllunio y mae'r arolygydd wedi ymchwilio iddo, felly mae'r cwestiwn hwnnw wedi ei ateb.
A fyddai Vaughan Gething wedi ceisio dylanwadu ar Fanc Datblygu Cymru ar sail eu benthyciad i'r cwmni? Efallai mai dyna a olygwch wrth yr hyn sydd wedi datblygu ers hynny. Wel, ddim o gwbl, oherwydd fe ofynnais iddynt yn y pwyllgor, ac roedd Paul Davies yno. Fe'u gwelodd yn ateb y cwestiwn. Yn yr wyth mlynedd y mae Giles Thorley wedi bod yn brif weithredwr Banc Datblygu Cymru, nid oes unrhyw Weinidog erioed wedi ceisio dylanwadu ar fenthyciad, a dywedodd wrth gytuno â mi y byddai'n annirnadwy. [Torri ar draws.]
Na, mae’n rhaid i mi—. Mae fy amser ar ben; dim ond tair munud sydd gennyf. Yn y ddadl nesaf efallai.
Byddai'n annirnadwy y byddai unrhyw Weinidog, gan gynnwys y Prif Weinidog, hyd yn oed yn ceisio gwneud hynny. A geisiodd wneud hynny? Yn bendant iawn, naddo.
Felly, mae'r holl dystiolaeth, yr holl dystiolaeth yr ydym wedi sôn amdani wedi cael sylw. Beth rydym ni'n ceisio ymchwilio iddo nawr? Nid wyf yn credu ein bod yn ceisio ymchwilio i unrhyw beth. Yr hyn y mae'r Ceidwadwyr yn ceisio ei wneud yw cadw'r stori i redeg, ac mae Andrew R.T. Davies yn dweud yn yr erthygl yn y Western Mail —rwy'n darllen ei erthyglau—ei fod am symud ymlaen. Os yw am symud ymlaen, gall ddechrau gofyn cwestiynau am y pethau sy'n bwysig i ni: costau byw, plant mewn gofal. Dyma'r mathau o bethau y gallai ddechrau gofyn amdanynt yn y cwestiynau i'r Prif Weinidog yn hytrach na rhygnu ymlaen am rywbeth nad oes iddo unrhyw sylwedd.
Yesterday, the First Minister suggested that the public were not concerned by his donations from a convicted polluter. He knows that it's not true, and yet he persists in downplaying the matter. And when one of the BBC's top journalists, Teleri Glyn Jones, asked him about those donations, he arrogantly implied that she was somehow not a serious journalist. A remark that he's still not apologised for. But, thankfully, many other colleagues on the benches behind him—if he were in his seat—in the Labour Party don't agree with him, either on his donations or his respect for the profession of journalism, because they've been quick to go to the press to let them know their dissatisfaction with the way that he's handled the scandal. Here's what some of you said:
'Accepting such huge amounts of money from a source whose director has been convicted of breaking our own govt's laws is simply wrong.'
That was Alun Davies. The donation was 'completely unjustifiable and wrong', Lee Waters.
'I would not have accepted it,'
Jeremy Miles. It 'tarnishes us all', said an anonymous Labour MS. Clearly, one of you didn't want to put your name to that one. Here's what some other members of the Labour Party said:
'if I was in that position I wouldn't have simply because of the optics of it',
and,
'I would probably just have said no and looked for funding elsewhere.'
That was Andrew Morgan, RCT council leader, Labour Party.
'This causes damage to the image of Welsh Labour and it causes damage to the image of devolution as well.'
Leighton Andrews, former Labour Minister. Here's another anonymous senior Labour figure speaking to Nation.Cymru:
'The decision that accepting the donations did not amount to a breach of the Ministerial Code is astonishing. The rationale is that the funds were received by Vaughan in his role as an MS rather than as a minister. This is entirely irrelevant.'
And one more:
'I’m not going to come on a television programme to defend Vaughan Gething. He shouldn’t have accepted the money. He should’ve returned the money straightaway. And he accepted the money from someone who’s guilty of environmental crimes and there’s all sorts of serious questions that need to be answered—and we need an independent inquiry.'
Welsh Labour MP Beth Winter. I could go on and on and on. But the point is that I agree with Beth. With that much disquiet in his own party, I understand why he hasn't come today, and I also understand why he's chosen to launch an internal investigation inside the Labour Party. But, as many of his own colleagues recognise, this is about more than just the Labour Party, it's about the country. The First Minister famously said a few weeks ago in this Chamber, and I quote,
'my bosses are the electors and members of the Welsh Labour family.'
He's wrong. His bosses are the people of Wales. He has a responsibility to them to ensure he's as transparent as he possibly can be. Launching an independent investigation allows him to prove to the people that he serves that if he's truly done nothing wrong, then he can prove it. I know, deep down, his own party knows that too. So, I urge Labour Members in particular: stand by the courage of your convictions. Let people know that what you say to the press, what you put on Twitter or even say in anonymous briefings, is backed up by the actions that you take. That's why I hope all Members, from all sides of the Chamber, support our motion today.
Ddoe, awgrymodd y Prif Weinidog nad oedd y cyhoedd yn pryderu am ei roddion gan lygrydd a gafwyd yn euog. Mae'n gwybod nad yw hynny'n wir, ac eto mae'n parhau i fychanu'r mater. A phan ofynnodd un o brif newyddiadurwyr y BBC, Teleri Glyn Jones, iddo am y rhoddion hynny, awgrymodd yn drahaus nad oedd hi rywsut yn newyddiadurwraig ddifrifol. Sylw y mae'n dal i fod heb ymddiheuro yn ei gylch. Ond diolch byth, mae llawer o gyd-Aelodau eraill ar y meinciau y tu ôl iddo—pe bai yn ei sedd—yn y Blaid Lafur nad ydynt yn cytuno ag ef, naill ai ynglŷn â'i roddion neu ei barch at y proffesiwn newyddiadurol, oherwydd maent wedi bod yn gyflym i fynd i'r wasg i roi gwybod iddynt am eu hanfodlonrwydd ynglŷn â'r ffordd yr ymdriniodd ef â'r sgandal. Dyma beth a ddywedodd rhai ohonoch:
'Mae derbyn symiau mor enfawr o arian o ffynhonnell y mae ei chyfarwyddwr wedi'i gael yn euog o dorri cyfreithiau ein Llywodraeth ein hunain yn anghywir.'
Alun Davies oedd hwnnw. Roedd y rhodd yn 'gwbl anghyfiawn ac yn anghywir', Lee Waters.
'Ni fyddwn i wedi ei derbyn,'
Jeremy Miles. 'Mae'n maeddu ein henw da ni i gyd', meddai AS Llafur dienw. Yn amlwg, roedd un ohonoch yn gyndyn i roi eich enw wrth hynny. Dyma beth a ddywedodd aelodau eraill o'r Blaid Lafur:
'Pe bawn i yn y sefyllfa honno, ni fyddwn wedi ei dderbyn oherwydd y ffordd y câi ei weld',
ac
'Mae'n debyg y byddwn i wedi dweud na a chwilio am arian yn rhywle arall.'
Andrew Morgan, arweinydd cyngor Rhondda Cynon Taf, y Blaid Lafur, a ddywedodd hynny.
'Mae hyn yn niweidio delwedd Llafur Cymru ac mae'n niweidio delwedd datganoli hefyd.'
Leighton Andrews, cyn-Weinidog Llafur. Dyma uwch ffigwr dienw arall o'r Blaid Lafur yn siarad â Nation.Cymru:
'Mae'r penderfyniad nad oedd derbyn y rhoddion yn torri cod y Gweinidogion yn syfrdanol. Y rhesymeg yw bod Vaughan wedi derbyn yr arian yn ei rôl fel AS yn hytrach na fel Gweinidog. Mae hyn yn gwbl amherthnasol.'
Ac un arall:
'Nid wyf yn mynd i ddod ar raglen deledu i amddiffyn Vaughan Gething. Ni ddylai fod wedi derbyn yr arian. Dylai fod wedi dychwelyd yr arian yn syth. Ac fe dderbyniodd yr arian gan rywun sy'n euog o droseddau amgylcheddol ac mae pob math o gwestiynau difrifol angen eu hateb—ac mae angen ymchwiliad annibynnol arnom.'
Aelod Seneddol Llafur Cymru, Beth Winter. Gallwn fynd ymlaen ac ymlaen ac ymlaen. Ond y pwynt yw fy mod i'n cytuno â Beth. Gyda'r fath anesmwythyd yn ei blaid ei hun, rwy'n deall pam nad yw wedi dod heddiw, ac rwyf hefyd yn deall pam ei fod wedi dewis lansio ymchwiliad mewnol o fewn y Blaid Lafur. Ond fel y mae llawer o'i gyd-Aelodau ei hun yn cydnabod, mae hyn yn ymwneud â mwy na'r Blaid Lafur yn unig, mae'n ymwneud â'r wlad. Dywedodd y Prif Weinidog ychydig wythnosau yn ôl yn y Siambr hon,
'fy mhenaethiaid yw'r etholwyr ac aelodau o deulu Llafur Cymru.'
Mae'n anghywir. Ei benaethiaid yw pobl Cymru. Mae ganddo gyfrifoldeb iddynt hwy i sicrhau ei fod mor dryloyw ag y gall fod. Mae lansio ymchwiliad annibynnol yn caniatáu iddo brofi i'r bobl y mae'n eu gwasanaethu, os nad yw wedi gwneud unrhyw beth o'i le mewn gwirionedd, y gall brofi hynny. Rwy'n gwybod bod ei blaid ei hun yn gwybod hynny hefyd yn y bôn. Felly, rwy'n annog Aelodau Llafur yn enwedig: sefwch yn ddewr dros eich egwyddorion. Gadewch i bobl wybod bod yr hyn a ddywedwch wrth y wasg, yr hyn a ddywedwch ar Twitter neu mewn briffiau dienw hyd yn oed, wedi ei ategu gan eich gweithredoedd. Dyna pam y gobeithiaf y bydd pob Aelod, o bob ochr i'r Siambr, yn cefnogi ein cynnig heddiw.
Last night, we spoke and there was, I understand, cross-party support on the steps that we should all be taking to restore trust in politicians. This entire episode has cast a dark shadow over Welsh democracy. This case, as serious as it is, merely, in my view, represents a symptom of the larger disease afflicting our democracy. It's the insidious rise of big money in politics. If we're not careful, we will end up just like the USA. It's a system that empowers the elite donor class, while shutting out the voices of ordinary people. It's a perversion of democracy itself.
That is why the wider goal should be to eradicate big money from our politics once and for all here in Wales. Surely the answer is simple, both in this debate and in the next one, and if the First Minister was here, I would say this: 'Give the money back. Let's stop this now in its tracks.' Diolch yn fawr iawn.
Neithiwr, fe wnaethom siarad a chafwyd cefnogaeth drawsbleidiol ar y camau y dylem i gyd fod yn eu cymryd i adfer ymddiriedaeth mewn gwleidyddion. Mae'r bennod gyfan hon wedi taflu cysgod tywyll dros ddemocratiaeth Cymru. Nid yw'r achos hwn, er mor ddifrifol ydyw, ond yn symptom o'r clefyd mwy sy'n effeithio ar ein democratiaeth yn fy marn i, sef cynnydd llechwraidd 'arian mawr' mewn gwleidyddiaeth. Os nad ydym yn ofalus, byddwn yn union fel yr Unol Daleithiau. Mae'n system sy'n grymuso'r dosbarth rhoddwyr elît, tra bo'n cau lleisiau pobl gyffredin allan. Mae'n ystumio democratiaeth.
Dyna pam y dylai'r nod ehangach gynnwys dileu 'arian mawr' o'n gwleidyddiaeth unwaith ac am byth yma yng Nghymru. Mae'r ateb yn syml, yn y ddadl hon ac yn yr un nesaf, a phe bai'r Prif Weinidog yma, byddwn yn dweud hyn: 'Rhowch yr arian yn ôl. Gadewch inni roi diwedd ar hyn nawr.' Diolch yn fawr iawn.
Y Trefnydd i gyfrannu i'r ddadl. Jane Hutt.
The Trefnydd to contribute to the debate. Jane Hutt.
Diolch, Llywydd. Wedi gwrando'n ofalus, dwi ddim wedi clywed dim byd newydd heddiw. Rydyn ni wedi ateb y pwyntiau hyn o'r blaen. Llywydd, mae'r Aelodau wedi clywed y ffeithiau gan y Prif Weinidog ei hun yn y Siambr ac yn y Senedd.
Thank you, Llywydd. Having listened carefully, I haven't heard anything new today. We have responded to these points previously. Llywydd, Members have heard the facts from the First Minister himself in the Chamber and in the Senedd.
I would say to Members here today that I'm responding—
Rwyf am ddweud wrth yr Aelodau yma heddiw fy mod i'n ymateb—
Will you take an intervention?
A wnewch chi dderbyn ymyriad?
No, not at this stage. I've got a short period and I've got a lot to say.
I'm going to say, in response to the motion, that the First Minister and all of us in this Cabinet are committed to upholding the ministerial code. And it's entirely right that whoever is in Government in Wales makes a clear and public statement of the standards of behaviour that are expected of them and that they ensure that they abide by those standards, and furthermore, when questions are raised, those concerns are considered carefully and responded to appropriately. One of the first things that the First Minister did at his very first Cabinet meeting—and it's important to share this—was to emphasise the importance of the ministerial code and his expectation that his Government should adhere to the highest standards, as outlined by the code. We take very seriously the ministerial code and the responsibilities that it places upon Welsh Ministers.
Llywydd, there is simply no link between the donation made to the First Minister's campaign for the leadership of the Labour Party and any loan decision made by the Development Bank of Wales. The development bank provides commercial loans and equity investments to businesses based in Wales, and the decisions it takes are wholly independent of the Welsh Government. The framework document between the Welsh Government and the development bank sets out how the relationship between the Government and the bank is managed and operated, and it explicitly states that Welsh Ministers and Welsh Government officials shall take no part in day-to-day operational matters, commercial matters or decision making throughout the DBW group.
And the First Minister, in his previous Cabinet role, had absolutely no involvement in this loan and it really isn't right to make or imply such a connection when the facts do not bear it out. The Development Bank of Wales confirmed this, as Hefin David has said, in a recent scrutiny session, that Ministers do not play a role in these decisions. Yes, Members are aware, and it's been reflected on again today that the former First Minister did consider whether accepting this donation might constitute a breach of the ministerial code when he received a letter regarding this, and he took advice on it and he was advised that it did not constitute a breach. He accepted this advice and the proper process was followed for considering alleged breaches of the ministerial code.
Na wnaf, ddim ar y cam hwn. Mae'r amser yn fyr ac mae gennyf lawer i'w ddweud.
Rwyf am ddweud, mewn ymateb i'r cynnig, fod y Prif Weinidog a phob un ohonom yn y Cabinet hwn wedi ymrwymo i gynnal cod y Gweinidogion. Ac mae'n gwbl briodol fod pwy bynnag sydd mewn Llywodraeth yng Nghymru yn gwneud datganiad clir a chyhoeddus o'r safonau ymddygiad sy'n ddisgwyliedig ganddynt a'u bod yn sicrhau eu bod yn cadw at y safonau hynny, ac ar ben hynny, pan godir cwestiynau, fod y pryderon hynny'n cael eu hystyried yn ofalus a'n bod yn ymateb iddynt yn briodol. Un o'r pethau cyntaf a wnaeth y Prif Weinidog yn ei gyfarfod cyntaf yn y Cabinet—ac mae'n bwysig rhannu hyn—oedd pwysleisio pwysigrwydd cod y Gweinidogion a'i ddisgwyliad y dylai ei Lywodraeth lynu at y safonau uchaf, fel yr amlinellir gan y cod. Rydym o ddifrif ynghylch cod y Gweinidogion a'r cyfrifoldebau y mae'n eu gosod ar Weinidogion Cymru.
Lywydd, nid oes unrhyw gysylltiad rhwng y rhodd a wnaed i ymgyrch y Prif Weinidog dros arweinyddiaeth y Blaid Lafur ac unrhyw benderfyniad ar fenthyciad a wnaed gan Fanc Datblygu Cymru. Mae'r banc datblygu'n darparu benthyciadau masnachol a buddsoddiadau ecwiti i fusnesau sydd wedi'u lleoli yng Nghymru, ac mae'r penderfyniadau y mae'n eu gwneud yn gwbl annibynnol ar Lywodraeth Cymru. Mae'r ddogfen fframwaith rhwng Llywodraeth Cymru a'r banc datblygu yn nodi sut mae'r berthynas rhwng y Llywodraeth a'r banc yn cael ei rheoli a'i gweithredu, ac mae'n nodi'n benodol na fydd Gweinidogion Cymru na swyddogion Llywodraeth Cymru yn cymryd unrhyw ran mewn materion gweithredol o ddydd i ddydd, materion masnachol na phenderfyniadau ar draws grŵp y banc datblygu.
Ac nid oedd gan y Prif Weinidog, yn ei rôl flaenorol yn y Cabinet, unrhyw ran yn y benthyciad hwn ac nid yw'n iawn gwneud neu awgrymu cysylltiad o'r fath pan nad yw'r ffeithiau'n ategu hynny. Fel y dywedodd Hefin David, mewn sesiwn graffu ddiweddar, cadarnhaodd Banc Datblygu Cymru nad yw Gweinidogion yn chwarae rhan yn y penderfyniadau hyn. Mae'r Aelodau'n ymwybodol, ac mae wedi cael ei nodi unwaith eto heddiw fod y cyn-Brif Weinidog wedi ystyried a fyddai derbyn y rhodd hon yn gyfystyr â thorri cod y Gweinidogion pan dderbyniodd lythyr ynglŷn â hyn, a chymerodd gyngor arno a dywedwyd wrtho nad oedd yn torri'r cod. Derbyniodd y cyngor hwn a dilynwyd y broses briodol ar gyfer ystyried achosion honedig o dorri cod y Gweinidogion.
Yn olaf, Llywydd, wrth ymateb i'r cynnig a'r gwelliant, dwi'n dweud unwaith eto bod ein penderfyniadau yn bodloni'r rheolau ac nid yw rheolau'r cod wedi cael eu torri. Mae camau diogelu yn bodoli i gadw busnes etholaethol ar wahân i fusnes gweinidogol. Mae hyn yn gyson gyda gofynion y Comisiwn Etholiadol ac felly ni fyddai ymchwiliad annibynnol yn briodol.
Finally, Llywydd, in responding to the motion and the amendment, I state once again that our decisions comply with the rules and the code has not been broken. There are steps in place to keep constituency business apart from ministerial business. This is in accordance with the requirements of the Electoral Commission and therefore an independent inquiry would not be appropriate.
Can I just say finally that I'm glad, too, that the leader of the opposition wants to move on? We're moving on as a Welsh Government—[Interruption.] We're moving on as a Welsh Government to address the challenges facing the people of Wales—
A gaf i ddweud yn olaf fy mod i'n falch, hefyd, fod arweinydd yr wrthblaid eisiau symud ymlaen? Rydym ni'n symud ymlaen fel Llywodraeth Cymru—[Torri ar draws.] Rydym ni'n symud ymlaen fel Llywodraeth Cymru i fynd i'r afael â'r heriau sy'n wynebu pobl Cymru—
Are you taking an intervention, Minister?
A ydych chi'n derbyn ymyriad, Weinidog?
I'll take an intervention.
Fe wnaf dderbyn ymyriad.
I'm grateful to the leader of the house. This portfolio responsibility sits firmly with the First Minister. He has chosen not to turn up today to this debate to respond to the points that have been put to him. Much of the information that you recited in your reply to this debate was not available to the previous First Minister, such as the loan that was made from the Development Bank of Wales. Can you explain why the First Minister has not turned up to speak to an issue that is in his ministerial portfolio, because I think, out of courtesy, the Senedd deserves that response from you today?
Rwy'n ddiolchgar i arweinydd y tŷ. Mae'r cyfrifoldeb portffolio hwn yn gadarn gyda'r Prif Weinidog. Mae wedi dewis peidio â dod i'r ddadl hon heddiw i ymateb i'r pwyntiau a roddwyd iddo. Nid oedd llawer o'r wybodaeth a nodwyd gennych yn eich ateb i'r ddadl hon ar gael i'r Prif Weinidog blaenorol, megis y benthyciad a wnaed gan Fanc Datblygu Cymru. A allwch chi egluro pam nad yw'r Prif Weinidog wedi dod i siarad ar fater sydd yn ei bortffolio gweinidogol, oherwydd rwy'n credu, fel mater o gwrteisi, fod y Senedd yn haeddu'r ymateb hwnnw gennych chi heddiw?
It is also very appropriate that I, as Trefnydd, am addressing and responding to this debate that you've put forward today. And I will repeat the point I made that I'm glad that the leader of the opposition does want to move on. I think the whole Senedd yesterday—. And let's remember, we're moving on as a Senedd in terms of our Senedd reform. But the Welsh Government and the First Minister, who is, himself, going to Mumbai—and I think that was welcomed across this Chamber—he is addressing, with his economy Minister, the challenges that the people of Port Talbot and south Wales, and much further afield, are facing in terms of what's happening to steel making, with the recent Tata decision.
It is the Welsh Government who are addressing the challenges facing the people of Wales. But I'm also glad that it is the Senedd that is facing these challenges as we move forward to progress with Senedd reform, for a more representative democracy here in Wales. I think that's what we are addressing together in this Senedd. But I'm glad that I've had the opportunity to put the record straight and to repeat the facts here today, and it's the facts that should guide us in our decision making and in our voting. I move our amendment.
Mae hefyd yn briodol iawn fy mod i, fel Trefnydd, yn siarad ac yn ymateb yn y ddadl a gyflwynwyd gennych chi heddiw. Ac rwyf am ailadrodd y pwynt a wneuthum fy mod yn falch fod arweinydd yr wrthblaid eisiau symud ymlaen. Rwy'n credu bod y Senedd gyfan ddoe—. A gadewch inni gofio, rydym yn symud ymlaen fel Senedd i ddiwygio'r Senedd. Ond mae Llywodraeth Cymru a'r Prif Weinidog, sy'n mynd i Mumbai—ac rwy'n credu bod hynny wedi cael croeso ar draws y Siambr hon—gyda Gweinidog yr economi, yn mynd i'r afael â'r heriau y mae pobl Port Talbot a de Cymru, a llawer pellach i ffwrdd, yn eu hwynebu gyda'r hyn sy'n digwydd i gynhyrchiant dur yn sgil penderfyniad diweddar Tata.
Llywodraeth Cymru sy'n mynd i'r afael â'r heriau sy'n wynebu pobl Cymru. Ond rwyf hefyd yn falch mai'r Senedd sy'n wynebu'r heriau hyn wrth inni symud ymlaen i ddiwygio'r Senedd ar gyfer democratiaeth fwy cynrychioliadol yma yng Nghymru. Rwy'n credu mai dyna'r hyn yr awn i'r afael ag ef gyda'n gilydd yn y Senedd hon. Ond rwy'n falch fy mod i wedi cael cyfle i gywiro pethau ac i ailadrodd y ffeithiau yma heddiw, a'r ffeithiau a ddylai ein harwain wrth inni fynd ati i wneud penderfyniadau a phleidleisio. Rwy'n cynnig ein gwelliant.
Samuel Kurtz nawr i ymateb i'r ddadl.
Samuel Kurtz to reply to the debate.
The fact of the matter is that the First Minister hasn't turned up for a debate on the responsibility that is his, and the disgruntlement and silence from the Labour benches I think speaks volumes as to the feelings within the Labour Party at the moment.
Andrew R.T. Davies, in opening this debate, mentioned 'recognises', 'notes' and 'calls'—the three points to our motion, which I think he put across incredibly eloquently. He raised, too, his disappointment that the First Minister wasn't in his place and, also, the regret that we see in the Welsh Government bringing forward a 'delete all' motion.
Rhun ap Iorwerth mentioned the anger and frustration felt over this, and said that the 'nothing to see' attitude of the First Minister could either be seen as complacent at best or contemptuous at worst.
Hefin David, being put forward to defend the First Minister in his absence—
Y ffaith amdani yw nad yw’r Prif Weinidog wedi ymuno â ni ar gyfer dadl ar rywbeth sy'n rhan o'i gyfrifoldeb ef, a chredaf fod yr anfodlonrwydd a’r distawrwydd ar y meinciau Llafur yn siarad cyfrolau am y teimladau o fewn y Blaid Lafur ar hyn o bryd.
Wrth agor y ddadl hon, soniodd Andrew R.T. Davies am 'gydnabod', 'nodi' a 'galw'—tri phwynt ein cynnig, y credaf iddo eu cyfleu'n hynod huawdl. Mynegodd ei siom hefyd nad oedd y Prif Weinidog yma, a gresynodd at y ffaith bod Llywodraeth Cymru yn cyflwyno cynnig 'dileu popeth'.
Soniodd Rhun ap Iorwerth am y dicter a’r rhwystredigaeth a deimlir mewn perthynas â hyn, a dywedodd y gallai agwedd ‘dim i’w weld yma’ y Prif Weinidog naill ai gael ei hystyried yn hunanfodlon ar y gorau neu’n ddirmygus ar y gwaethaf.
Ar ôl cael ei gyflwyno i amddiffyn y Prif Weinidog yn ei absenoldeb, roedd Hefin David—
Nobody put me forward.
Ni wnaeth unrhyw un fy nghyflwyno.
You're a very willing person, then. But in terms of the point that you raised there, and Andrew R.T. Davies made it in an intervention to the Trefnydd, not all of the information was available to the previous First Minister when that initial investigation was taking place. The story is moving forward because more information is coming to light. If he wants the story to stop moving forward, if the Trefnydd wants the story to stop moving forward and if the Labour benches want the story to stop moving forward, then all the First Minister has to do is agree to our motion.
Rydych yn unigolyn cymwynasgar iawn, felly. Ond ar y pwynt rydych newydd ei godi, ac a wnaed gan Andrew R.T. Davies mewn ymyriad ar y Trefnydd, nid oedd yr holl wybodaeth ar gael i’r Prif Weinidog blaenorol pan gynhaliwyd yr ymchwiliad cychwynnol. Mae'r stori'n symud yn ei blaen am fod mwy o wybodaeth yn dod i'r amlwg. Os yw am atal y stori rhag symud yn ei blaen, os yw’r Trefnydd am atal y stori rhag symud yn ei blaen ac os yw’r meinciau Llafur am atal y stori rhag symud yn ei blaen, y cyfan sy’n rhaid i’r Prif Weinidog ei wneud yw derbyn ein cynnig.
Will you take an intervention?
A wnewch chi dderbyn ymyriad?
I'll take an intervention.
Fe wnaf dderbyn ymyriad.
One of the things that was not in the public domain at the time that the previous First Minister undertook his review as to whether there had been a breach of the ministerial code was the fact that a £200,000 donation had been made by a company that had accepted a significant loan from the Development Bank of Wales as a lender of last resort. That was not information that was known in the public domain at that time. Clearly, if there's a perception of potential influence, then that is an issue that the code refers to. Don't you agree with me that, given that that is new information, and given that there's further information about other links with the taxi firm, for example, that we discussed in this Chamber yesterday, that also needs to be looked at?
Un o’r pethau nad oedd ar gael i’r cyhoedd pan gynhaliodd y Prif Weinidog blaenorol ei adolygiad i weld a gafodd cod y Gweinidogion ei dorri oedd y ffaith bod rhodd o £200,000 wedi’i gwneud gan gwmni a oedd wedi derbyn benthyciad sylweddol gan Fanc Datblygu Cymru fel benthyciwr pan fetha popeth arall. Nid oedd honno’n wybodaeth a oedd yn hysbys i’r cyhoedd bryd hynny. Yn amlwg, os oes canfyddiad o ddylanwad posibl, mae hwnnw'n fater y mae'r cod yn cyfeirio ato. O ystyried bod honno’n wybodaeth newydd, ac o ystyried bod rhagor o wybodaeth wedi dod i'r amlwg ynglŷn â chysylltiadau eraill â’r cwmni tacsis, er enghraifft, y gwnaethom eu trafod yn y Siambr ddoe, onid ydych chi'n cytuno bod angen edrych ar hynny hefyd?
Well, it'll be of little surprise to the Chamber that of course I agree with you, Darren Millar, on those points there—that as new information comes forward, that information should be taken seriously and, therefore, an investigation must be conducted.
Tom Giffard listed those Labour Members who've shown their discontent with what has happened here, and Jane Dodds mentioned the dark shadow that this has cast over Welsh politics. It's quite clear that we need an urgent independent investigation. And while the First Minister says that he's acted to the letter of the rules, this donation and all that surrounds it is, well, just not cricket.
So, let's remind ourselves of how it looks to the general public that we serve. Vaughan Gething took a £200,000 donation from someone convicted of environmental crimes to fight an extremely tight leadership election, which he ultimately won by a narrow margin. Businesses owned by the very same convicted individual had previously borrowed £400,000 from the Development Bank of Wales that the then economy Minister oversaw. For residents in Paul Davies's constituency, there's an additional layer here too, because the Withyhedge tip, causing foul, polluted air, is operated by the very same convicted individual who donated the £200,000 to Vaughan Gething.
Our motion is clear, as is the ministerial code: an act only has to appear to have a conflict of interest, or only has to appear to place a Member under an improper obligation. This whole saga—the donation, the loan, the poor judgment shown by the First Minister because he knew about the conviction when accepting the donation—is just like that Withyhedge tip: it stinks. So, if there's nothing to hide, why vote against our motion? If there's nothing to hide, then surely you'd welcome the opportunity to be fully exonerated. If there's nothing to hide, then join us and vote with the Welsh Conservatives this afternoon.
Wel, ni fydd yn fawr o syndod i'r Siambr fy mod yn cytuno â chi ar y pwyntiau hynny, Darren Millar—pan fo gwybodaeth newydd yn dod i'r amlwg, dylid rhoi ystyriaeth ddifrifol i'r wybodaeth honno, ac felly, mae'n rhaid cynnal ymchwiliad.
Rhestrodd Tom Giffard yr Aelodau Llafur sydd wedi dangos eu hanfodlonrwydd â’r hyn sydd wedi digwydd yma, a soniodd Jane Dodds am y cysgod tywyll y mae hyn wedi’i daflu dros wleidyddiaeth Cymru. Mae’n gwbl amlwg fod angen ymchwiliad annibynnol brys arnom. Ac er bod y Prif Weinidog yn dweud ei fod wedi gweithredu yn unol â llythyren y rheol, mae'r rhodd hon a phopeth amdani yn amheus braidd.
Felly, gadewch inni atgoffa ein hunain o sut mae'r sefyllfa'n edrych i'r cyhoedd yr ydym yn eu gwasanaethu. Derbyniodd Vaughan Gething rodd o £200,000 gan rywun a gafwyd yn euog o droseddau amgylcheddol i ymladd etholiad arweinyddiaeth hynod o dynn, ac fe'i henillodd yn y pen draw o drwch blewyn. Roedd busnesau a oedd yn eiddo i’r un unigolyn a gafwyd yn euog wedi benthyca £400,000 yn flaenorol gan Fanc Datblygu Cymru o dan oruchwyliaeth Gweinidog yr economi ar y pryd. I drigolion etholaeth Paul Davies, mae haen ychwanegol yma hefyd, gan fod tomen sbwriel Withyhedge, sy’n achosi aer budr, llygredig, yn cael ei gweithredu gan yr unigolyn a gafwyd yn euog a roddodd y £200,000 i Vaughan Gething.
Mae ein cynnig yn glir, fel y mae cod y Gweinidogion: nid oes ond yn rhaid i weithred ymddangos fel pe bai gwrthdrawiad buddiannau, neu ymddangos fel pe bai’n rhoi Aelod o dan rwymedigaeth amhriodol. Mae'r saga gyfan hon—y rhodd, y benthyciad, y diffyg doethineb a ddangoswyd gan y Prif Weinidog gan ei fod yn gwybod am yr euogfarn pan dderbyniodd y rhodd—yn union fel tomen sbwriel Withyhedge: mae'n drewi. Felly, os nad oes unrhyw beth i’w guddio, pam pleidleisio yn erbyn ein cynnig? Os nad oes unrhyw beth i'w guddio, byddech yn croesawu'r cyfle i gael eich rhyddhau o fai. Os nad oes unrhyw beth i’w guddio, ymunwch â ni a phleidleisiwch gyda’r Ceidwadwyr Cymreig y prynhawn yma.
Y cwestiwn yw: a ddylid derbyn y cynnig heb ei ddiwygio? A oes unrhyw Aelod yn gwrthwynebu? [Gwrthwynebiad.] Oes, mae yna wrthwynebiad, felly mi wnawn ni ohirio'r bleidlais tan y cyfnod pleidleisio.
The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes, there is objection. I will defer voting under this item until voting time.
Gohiriwyd y pleidleisio tan y cyfnod pleidleisio.
Voting deferred until voting time.
Detholwyd y gwelliant canlynol: gwelliant 1 yn enw Jane Hutt.
The following amendment has been selected: amendment 1 in the name of Jane Hutt.
Eitem 8 sydd nesaf, dadl Plaid Cymru ar uchafswm ar roddion gwleidyddol. Rhun ap Iorwerth sy'n gwneud y cynnig yma.
Item 8 is next, the Plaid Cymru debate on a cap on political donations. Rhun ap Iorwerth is to move the motion.
Cynnig NDM8561 Heledd Fychan
Cynnig bod y Senedd:
1. Yn nodi cyfraniad o £200,000 a wnaed i'r Prif Weinidog yn ystod etholiad arweinyddiaeth Llafur Cymru, a'i ddatganiad ar Gofrestr Buddiannau'r Aelod.
2. Yn credu nad yw'r cyhoedd yn cymeradwyo derbyn y rhodd hon.
3. Yn cytuno y dylid gosod uchafswm blynyddol ar y rhoddion gwleidyddol y gall unrhyw Aelod unigol o'r Senedd eu derbyn gan unrhyw unigolyn neu endid.
4. Yn galw ar y Pwyllgor Busnes a'r Pwyllgor Safonau Ymddygiad i gyflwyno cynigion ar gyfer newidiadau i Reolau Sefydlog y Senedd a Chod Ymddygiad yr Aelodau a fyddai'n rhoi'r uchafswm ar waith.
Motion NDM8561 Heledd Fychan
To propose that the Senedd:
1. Notes a donation of £200,000 made to the First Minister during the Welsh Labour leadership election, and its declaration on the Member’s Register of Interests.
2. Believes that this donation does not meet with public approval.
3. Agrees that there should be an annual maximum cap on the political donations that any individual Member of the Senedd can receive from any individual or entity.
4. Calls on the Business Committee and the Standards of Conduct Committee to bring forward proposals for changes to the Senedd’s Standing Orders and the Members’ Code of Conduct that would put the cap into effect.
Cynigiwyd y cynnig.
Motion moved.
Diolch yn fawr iawn, Lywydd. Rydym ninnau'n nodi pa mor rhyfeddol ydy hi bod y Prif Weinidog ei hun ddim yma i wrando ar y dadleuon yma y prynhawn yma.
Thank you very much, Llywydd. We also note how incredible it is that the First Minister himself isn't here to listen to these debates this afternoon.
The average property price in Wales is £225,000, so you can buy a house for that or you can use a similar amount to build your case to be leader of the Labour Party in Wales—an internal party election; the sum is eye-watering. We've seen nothing like it in Welsh politics.
Two-hundred thousand pounds is not only out of kilter with what the public would deem acceptable, but it also dwarfs the size of donations given to recent successful and unsuccessful candidates for the Labour Party leadership in Wales. Carwyn Jones and Mark Drakeford won their contest having received between £10,000 and £20,000. I can tell you that, in Plaid Cymru, the cap for an election like that is £5,000. Donations to Jeremy Miles's campaign, although a significant amount, came, in total, to less than a third of what Vaughan Gething received from one donor.
We can safely assume that money like that could have a material impact on the result, and not just who became the Labour leader in Wales, but, ultimately, on who became First Minister. Yes, Labour has admitted that some questions need to be asked, but the review will be conducted by a former leader of Labour in Wales, who you would expect to gravitate perhaps towards maintaining party discipline, rather than rocking the boat.
Plaid Cymru's motion today calls for a cap on individual political donations. Carwyn Jones has said that his internal review will consider that. So, I must say it's so disappointing that Labour here today would seek to delete our motion in its entirety, seemingly rejecting any cap outright, without even suggesting, in their amendment, that they're happy with exploring the idea. Nothing in the Government's amendment gives even the slightest nod to the fact that donations of hundreds of thousands of pounds are in any way problematic.
In defending the donation yesterday, the First Minister glibly said that the issue wasn't a priority for the people of Wales, his contention being that they're more concerned with the cost-of-living crisis. He may not be able to square that circle, but during the campaign, Lee Waters rightly did when he said, and I quote:
'I'm sorry but £200k on an internal election in a cost of living crisis is completely unjustifiable.'
I agree with him. I echo those sentiments. And we're left to question the future direction of policy making, frankly, if a Labour First Minister can't find it within himself to acknowledge that him accepting hundreds of thousands of pounds to meet his own ends, when so many can hardly make ends meet, calls into question his political antennae.
Pris eiddo cyfartalog yng Nghymru yw £225,000, felly gallwch naill ai brynu tŷ am hynny neu gallwch ddefnyddio swm tebyg i adeiladu eich achos dros fod yn arweinydd y Blaid Lafur yng Nghymru—etholiad mewnol plaid; mae'r swm yn syfrdanol. Nid ydym wedi gweld unrhyw beth o'r fath yng ngwleidyddiaeth Cymru.
Mae £200,000 nid yn unig yn fwy na’r hyn y byddai’r cyhoedd yn ei ystyried yn dderbyniol, mae hefyd yn llawer mwy na'r rhoddion a roddwyd i ymgeiswyr llwyddiannus ac aflwyddiannus diweddar ar gyfer arweinyddiaeth y Blaid Lafur yng Nghymru. Enillodd Carwyn Jones a Mark Drakeford eu cystadleuaeth ar ôl cael rhwng £10,000 a £20,000. Gallaf ddweud wrthych, ym Mhlaid Cymru, mai’r cap ar gyfer etholiad o’r fath yw £5,000. Daeth rhoddion i ymgyrch Jeremy Miles, er yn swm sylweddol, i gyfanswm o lai na thraean o'r hyn a gafodd Vaughan Gething gan un rhoddwr.
Gallwn gymryd i sicrwydd y gallai arian o’r fath gael effaith sylweddol ar y canlyniad, ac nid yn unig pwy a ddaeth yn arweinydd Llafur yng Nghymru, ond yn y pen draw, pwy a ddaeth yn Brif Weinidog. Ydy, mae Llafur wedi cyfaddef bod angen gofyn cwestiynau, ond bydd yr adolygiad yn cael ei gynnal gan gyn-arweinydd Llafur yng Nghymru, y byddech yn disgwyl iddo wyro efallai tuag at gynnal disgyblaeth y blaid, yn hytrach na siglo’r cwch.
Mae cynnig Plaid Cymru heddiw yn galw am gap ar roddion gwleidyddol i unigolion. Mae Carwyn Jones wedi dweud y bydd ei adolygiad mewnol yn ystyried hynny. Felly, mae'n rhaid imi ddweud ei bod mor siomedig fod Llafur yma heddiw'n ceisio dileu ein cynnig yn ei gyfanrwydd, gan wrthod unrhyw gap yn llwyr yn ôl pob golwg, heb hyd yn oed awgrymu, yn eu gwelliant, eu bod yn barod i archwilio'r syniad. Nid oes unrhyw beth yng ngwelliant y Llywodraeth yn rhoi'r gydnabyddiaeth leiaf hyd yn oed i’r ffaith bod rhoddion o gannoedd o filoedd o bunnoedd yn broblematig mewn unrhyw ffordd.
Wrth amddiffyn y rhodd ddoe, dywedodd y Prif Weinidog yn llithrig ei dafod nad oedd y mater yn flaenoriaeth i bobl Cymru, a’i haeriad ef oedd eu bod yn poeni mwy am yr argyfwng costau byw. Efallai na all sgwario’r cylch hwnnw, ond yn ystod yr ymgyrch, fe wnaeth Lee Waters hynny pan ddywedodd, yn gwbl briodol:
'Mae'n ddrwg gennyf, ond mae £200,000 ar etholiad mewnol mewn argyfwng costau byw yn gwbl anghyfiawnadwy.'
Rwy'n cytuno. Rwy'n ategu'r teimladau hynny. Ac mae'n rhaid inni gwestiynu cyfeiriad llunio polisi yn y dyfodol, a dweud y gwir, os na all Prif Weinidog Llafur gydnabod bod derbyn cannoedd o filoedd o bunnoedd at ei ddibenion ei hun, pan fo cymaint o bobl yn ei chael hi'n anodd cael deupen llinyn ynghyd, yn bwrw amheuaeth ar ei antenau gwleidyddol.
Mae'r bennod yma'n codi pryderon ehangach am iechyd sylfaenol ein democratiaeth ni. Mae yna beryg o rywbeth gwenwynig yn digwydd i ddemocratiaeth yn y fan hyn, Llywydd. Mae diffyg rheoleiddio cyllid mewn gwleidyddiaeth yn broblem. Mae'n wir rhaid inni ochel rhag i wleidyddiaeth allu dod yn gêm yng Nghymru i gael ei chwarae gan y rheini sydd eisiau prynu dylanwad yn unig, neu i greu y ddelwedd bod ffafrau gwleidyddol yn cael eu prynu. Hyd yn oed os ydy'r unigolion eu hunain, fel mae'r Prif Weinidog yn yr achos yma yn dweud ei fod o, yn benderfynol o sicrhau bod yna ddim gwrthdaro buddiannau'n digwydd go iawn, mae'r argraff mor, mor bwysig.
Mae Canada, Ffrainc, Iwerddon, Estonia a Slofenia—yn ôl peth o'r gwaith ymchwil rydyn ni wedi'i wneud dros yr wythnosau diwethaf—i gyd yn enghreifftiau o wledydd sydd wedi rhoi mesurau ar waith i gyfyngu ar y rhoddion y gall unigolion eu derbyn. Maen nhw i gyd yn systemau gwahanol wedi'u teilwra i'w hanghenion gwleidyddol eu hunain. Ac mae gyda ni gyfle yma yng Nghymru i gynllunio a chytuno ar y rheolau sy'n gweddu orau i'n democratiaeth ni. Mae hi o fewn gallu'r Senedd i gyflwyno cynigion ar gyfer newidiadau i Reolau Sefydlog y Senedd, a chod ymddygiad yr Aelodau, a fyddai'n rhoi cap ar waith. Wrth wneud hynny, mi ddylen ni gydgynllunio'r system efo'r rhai hynny rydyn ni'n gofyn iddyn nhw ymddiried ynddon ni: y cyhoedd. Efo cefnogaeth y cyhoedd, mi allwn ni gytuno ar gap sy'n caniatáu ar gyfer y lefelau angenrheidiol o weithgarwch gwleidyddol, a chytuno ar lefel mae'r cyhoedd hefyd yn ei ystyried yn rhesymol.
Os ydych chi'n cytuno na ddylai arian, neu ddiffyg arian, fod yn rhwystr i bobl fynd i mewn i wleidyddiaeth, os ydych chi'n cytuno na ddylai arian, neu ddiffyg arian, amharu ar allu rhywun i naill ai datblygu platfform polisi neu ddylanwadu ar ei lwybr drwy'r rhengoedd gwleidyddol, ac os ydych chi'n cytuno nad oes modd cyfiawnhau rhodd o £200,000 i ymgyrch unigolyn i fod yn Brif Weinidog, dwi'n eich annog chi i gefnogi'r cynnig heddiw.
This chapter raises broader concern about the fundamental health of our democracy. There is a risk of a poison affecting our politics here. The lack of regulation of funding in politics is a problem, and we must truly guard against politics becoming a game in Wales that can be played by those who want to buy influence only, or to give the impression that political favours are being bought. Even if the individuals themselves, as the First Minister in this case says he is, are determined to ensure that there is no conflict of interest in reality, the impression and the optics are so important here.
Canada, France, Ireland, Estonia and Slovenia—according to the research that we've been doing over the last few weeks—are all examples of nations that have put measures in place to limit the donations that individuals can accept. They're all different systems tailored to their own political needs, and we have an opportunity here in Wales to plan and to agree on rules that are most appropriate to our democracy. It is within the gift of the Senedd to present motions to change Senedd Standing Orders, and the Members' code of conduct, which would put a cap. In doing so, we should jointly plan the system with those people whose trust we are asking for: the public. With the support of the public, we can agree on a cap that allows the necessary level of political activity and agree on a level that the public considers to be reasonable.
If you agree that money, or lack of money, shouldn't be a barrier for people to enter politics, if you agree that money, or lack of money, should not affect one's ability to either develop a policy platform or to influence the route through political ranks, and if you agree that it's not possible to justify a donation of £200,000 to an individual's campaign to become First Minister, then I urge you to support the motion today.
Firstly, I need to ask the Trefnydd to propose formally amendment 1.
Yn gyntaf, mae angen imi ofyn i’r Trefnydd gynnig gwelliant 1 yn ffurfiol.
Gwelliant 1—Jane Hutt
Dileu popeth a rhoi yn ei le:
Cynnig bod y Senedd:
1. Yn nodi bod gan Aelodau o'r Senedd gyfrifoldeb i ddatgan buddiannau ar Gofrestr Buddiannau'r Aelodau a nodi datganiadau o'r fath lle bo'n berthnasol mewn cyfraniadau ysgrifenedig a llafar i Fusnes y Senedd.
2. Yn nodi ei bod yn ofynnol i Aelodau hefyd wirio bod rhoddion o £500 neu fwy wedi’u gwneud gan roddwyr a ganiateir, yn ogystal â rhoi gwybod i’r Comisiwn Etholiadol am fanylion llawn y rhoddion hynny sydd dros £2230.
3. Yn cydnabod bod pleidiau gwleidyddol, a'u cyrff llywodraethu cyfansoddol, yn gyfrifol am bennu a monitro cydymffurfedd â rheolau sy'n mynd y tu hwnt i'r gofynion cyfreithiol presennol.
4. Yn galw ar y Pwyllgor Safonau Ymddygiad i barhau i sicrhau bod yr holl Aelodau yn bodloni'r safonau ymddygiad uchaf.
Amendment NDM8561-1 Jane Hutt
Delete all and replace with:
To propose that the Senedd:
1. Notes that Members of the Senedd have a responsibility to declare interests on the Members’ Register of Interests and to identify such declarations where relevant in written and oral contributions to Senedd Business.
2. Notes that members are also required to check that donations of £500 or more are from permissible donors and report full details of those over £2230 to the Electoral Commission.
3. Recognises that political parties, and their constituent governing bodies, are responsible for setting and monitoring compliance with rules which go beyond existing legal requirements.
4. Calls on the Standards of Conduct Committee to continue to ensure that the highest standards of conduct are observed by all Members.
Cynigiwyd gwelliant 1.
Amendment 1 moved.
Formally.
Yn ffurfiol.
I welcome the opportunity to contribute to another debate on an issue that has captured many people’s imaginations outside of this place as well as much Plenary time and debating time as well. I’ll put on record for the second time this afternoon my disappointment that the First Minister isn’t here to respond to this important debate, because it clearly is another debate that sits within his portfolio of responsibilities. I did invite the Trefnydd to give us the reason why he hasn’t come here in the previous debate, and there might be a perfectly legitimate reason why he’s not here, but at least give us the courtesy of a response to that question so that we can be satisfied that it’s of such urgency and magnitude that he cannot show us the courtesy to come and address the points that have been put to him today. I hope Members, even speaking in support of the First Minister, would agree that this is an important debate, and the previous one is, and the First Minister should be here responding to it given it’s his ministerial responsibility.
I said in my previous contribution that the public are rightly anxious and concerned about the news—. Hefin David, the Member for Caerphilly, points to the gallery as if there’s no-one up there. There are actually three more people up there than there were for Senedd reform yesterday, when we were told we were talking about historic legislation, and there wasn’t anyone. Oh, sorry—I missed the people sitting over there. There are five people in the public gallery today. To dismiss it so flippantly and say that the public aren’t concerned most probably shows the detachment of the current First Minister, and his supporters’ inability to grasp what is going on in the voters’ minds when it comes to this. [Interruption.] I’ll gladly take the intervention.
Rwy'n croesawu'r cyfle i gyfrannu at ddadl arall ar fater sydd wedi dal dychymyg llawer o bobl y tu hwnt i’r lle hwn yn ogystal â llawer o amser y Cyfarfod Llawn ac amser dadl hefyd. Rwyf am gofnodi am yr eildro y prynhawn yma fy siom nad yw’r Prif Weinidog yma i ymateb i’r ddadl bwysig hon, gan ei bod yn amlwg yn ddadl arall sy’n rhan o’i bortffolio o gyfrifoldebau. Gwahoddais y Trefnydd yn y ddadl flaenorol i nodi pam nad yw wedi dod yma, ac efallai fod rheswm cwbl ddilys pam nad yw yma, ond o leiaf byddwch yn ddigon cwrtais i ymateb i’r cwestiwn hwnnw fel y gallwn fod yn sicr fod y rheswm mor bwysig fel na all mor gwrtais â dod i ymateb i'r pwyntiau a gyflwynwyd iddo heddiw. Rwy'n gobeithio y byddai’r Aelodau, hyd yn oed wrth siarad o blaid y Prif Weinidog, yn cytuno bod hon yn ddadl bwysig, felly hefyd y ddadl flaenorol, ac y dylai’r Prif Weinidog fod yma yn ymateb iddi o ystyried ei bod yn rhan o'i gyfrifoldeb gweinidogol.
Dywedais yn fy nghyfraniad blaenorol fod y cyhoedd, yn gywir ddigon, yn bryderus ac yn poeni am y newyddion—. Mae Hefin David, yr Aelod dros Gaerffili, yn pwyntio at yr oriel fel pe na bai unrhyw un yno. Mewn gwirionedd, mae tri yn fwy o bobl yno nag a oedd ar gyfer y ddadl ar ddiwygio'r Senedd ddoe, pan ddywedwyd wrthym ein bod yn sôn am ddeddfwriaeth hanesyddol, ac nid oedd unrhyw un yno. O, mae'n ddrwg gennyf—ni welais y bobl sy'n eistedd draw yn y fan acw. Mae pump o bobl yn yr oriel gyhoeddus heddiw. Mae'n fwy na thebyg fod wfftio'r mater mewn ffordd mor anystyriol a dweud nad yw'r cyhoedd yn poeni yn dangos diffyg cysylltiad y Prif Weinidog presennol, ac anallu ei gefnogwyr i amgyffred yr hyn sy'n digwydd ym meddyliau'r pleidleiswyr mewn perthynas â hyn. [Torri ar draws.] Rwy'n falch o dderbyn yr ymyriad.
What I find difficult about some of this is the hypocrisy. Your party took £10 million from someone who said they were going to shoot black people. They wanted to shoot black women. How do you feel about that?
Yr hyn rwy'n ei chael hi'n anodd ei dderbyn am beth o hyn yw'r rhagrith. Derbyniodd eich plaid £10 miliwn gan rywun a ddywedodd eu bod yn mynd i saethu pobl ddu. Roedd arnynt eisiau saethu menywod du. Sut ydych chi'n teimlo ynglŷn â hynny?
Anyone who makes those comments should never be near a political party or take those donations. I agree with the point that you just made. But we are debating here an issue about an individual, because as I said in my speech in the previous debate, this money wasn't given to a political party. This money was given to an individual to secure a position that ultimately would secure the leadership of the country that he lives in and is proud to represent, just like all of us are. That is the point we are talking about here, and it is about judgment—the judgment call that the now First Minister made in the knowledge that this individual who made this substantial donation had two criminal convictions from the company that he owns, and also had taken a loan from the Development Bank of Wales for £400,000, and in the same year gave a £200,000 donation to the leadership campaign.
And as I said in First Minister’s questions yesterday, if you read the annualised accounts of this company, it highlights one of the benefits that the company sees going forward is in legislation, and legislation to improve the prospects of that company. They’re not my words—they’re in the accounts that are filed at Companies House, which highlight what the company wants to achieve. So the company has put £200,000 in a pot that it identifies is a route to maybe having the ability to influence legislation that governs the prospects and profitability of that company. That’s there. That’s in their own words. You can’t dismiss that.
And as we saw in First Minister’s questions yesterday, the Gwent levels were raised by John Griffiths, and we saw then Julie Morgan from Cardiff North highlighting the taxi firm that also made a substantial donation of £25,000. How many areas are going to be out of bounds for the First Minister to speak on because he has this conflict of interest, because of this level of donation and taking of money to secure the role of First Minister?
That is the debate, and that is the discussion. It’s about judgment and a solution, then, to put in place to find that independent opinion that will either say, ‘No, there is no conflict of interest in terms of the ministerial code here, and there is no perception of a breach of that code’—. Because it is important that perception appears within that ministerial code. It’s worded there, it was read in the summing up of the last debate, and in my opening remarks, and the Trefnydd didn’t respond to that point whatsoever. She just regurgitated many of the arguments that have been put forward by the Government that, frankly, haven't silenced the critics when it comes to this particular point. And many of those critics aren't wearing blue rosettes, they're not wearing yellow rosettes, they're not wearing green rosettes—they're wearing red rosettes, and that is an important distinction on this issue, which is something I do admire in the Labour Party, which is the discipline and the collective responsibility that you will always take to make sure that you continue in Government. But here, you can clearly see that there is wrongdoing going on in taking this donation that has had an impact on your prospects. And I am just amazed again with this motion that the Government have put a 'delete all' amendment down to it.
We will be abstaining on this motion because we believe there's more work to do around the cap on donations. We don't believe it is wrong to consider a cap, but does the scope of the debate today have the ability to capture all the sentiment that is required to understand what the instruction and the scope of the work that the Business Committee and the standards committee will do? And so that's why the Conservatives will be abstaining on the motion, but we'd be prepared to carry on working with Plaid Cymru and any other parties, so that the Senedd can take this work forward with a clearer understanding of the remit of the instruction, so that we get a goal at the end of it rather than it disappears down a rabbit hole and we don't get the solution that we all want to see.
Ni ddylai unrhyw un sy’n gwneud y sylwadau hynny fyth fod yn agos at blaid wleidyddol na derbyn y rhoddion hynny. Rwy'n cytuno â’r pwynt rydych chi newydd ei wneud. Ond rydym yn dadlau mater yma sy'n ymwneud ag unigolyn, oherwydd fel y dywedais yn fy araith yn y ddadl flaenorol, ni roddwyd yr arian hwn i blaid wleidyddol. Rhoddwyd yr arian hwn i unigolyn i sicrhau rôl a fyddai yn y pen draw yn sicrhau ei le fel arweinydd y wlad y mae’n byw ynddi ac y mae’n falch o’i chynrychioli, fel pob un ohonom. Dyna’r pwynt rydym yn sôn amdano yma, ac mae'n ymwneud â doethineb—doethineb yr unigolyn sy'n Brif Weinidog bellach wrth dderbyn y rhodd sylweddol hon gan wybod bod dwy euogfarn droseddol wedi'i gwneud yn erbyn yr unigolyn a'i rhoddodd a'r cwmni y mae’n berchen arno, a'i fod hefyd wedi cael benthyciad o £400,000 gan Fanc Datblygu Cymru ac wedi rhoi cyfraniad o £200,000 i’r ymgyrch arweinyddiaeth yn yr un flwyddyn.
Ac fel y dywedais yn y cwestiynau i’r Prif Weinidog ddoe, os darllenwch gyfrifon blynyddol y cwmni hwn, maent yn nodi mai un o’r manteision y mae’r cwmni yn eu gweld wrth symud ymlaen yw deddfwriaeth, a deddfwriaeth i wella rhagolygon y cwmni hwnnw. Nid fy ngeiriau i mohonynt—maent yn y cyfrifon sydd wedi'u ffeilio yn Nhŷ'r Cwmnïau, sy'n nodi'r hyn y mae'r cwmni am ei gyflawni. Felly, mae'r cwmni wedi rhoi £200,000 mewn pot y mae'n ei nodi fel llwybr posibl at allu dylanwadu ar ddeddfwriaeth sy'n llywodraethu rhagolygon a phroffidioldeb y cwmni hwnnw. Mae hynny yno. Mae hynny yn eu geiriau eu hunain. Ni allwch ddiystyru hynny.
Ac fel y gwelsom yn y cwestiynau i’r Prif Weinidog ddoe, codwyd gwastadeddau Gwent gan John Griffiths, a gwelsom bryd hynny Julie Morgan o Ogledd Caerdydd yn tynnu sylw at y cwmni tacsis a roddodd gyfraniad sylweddol hefyd o £25,000. Faint o bethau na all y Prif Weinidog siarad amdanynt gan fod ganddo’r gwrthdaro buddiannau hwn, oherwydd lefel y rhoddion a'r ffaith ei fod wedi derbyn arian i sicrhau ei rôl fel y Prif Weinidog?
Dyna’r ddadl, a dyna’r drafodaeth. Mae'n ymwneud â doethineb ac ateb, felly, i'w roi ar waith i ddod o hyd i'r farn annibynnol honno a fydd naill ai'n dweud, 'Na, nid oes gwrthdaro buddiannau yma o ran cod y Gweinidogion, ac nid oes unrhyw ganfyddiad o dorri'r cod hwnnw'—. Oherwydd mae’n bwysig fod y cod yn cyfeirio at ganfyddiad. Mae yno mewn geiriau, fe’i darllenwyd wrth grynhoi’r ddadl ddiwethaf ac yn fy sylwadau agoriadol, ac ni ymatebodd y Trefnydd i’r pwynt hwnnw o gwbl, dim ond ailadrodd llawer o'r dadleuon a gyflwynwyd gan y Llywodraeth nad ydynt, a dweud y gwir, wedi distewi'r beirniaid mewn perthynas â'r pwynt penodol hwn. Ac nid yw llawer o'r beirniaid hynny'n gwisgo rhosedau glas, nid ydynt yn gwisgo rhosedau melyn, nid ydynt yn gwisgo rhosedau gwyrdd—maent yn gwisgo rhosedau coch, ac mae hynny'n wahaniaeth pwysig yn y mater hwn, sy'n rhywbeth rwy'n ei edmygu yn y Blaid Lafur, sef y ddisgyblaeth a’r cyfrifoldeb cyfunol y byddwch bob amser yn ei ysgwyddo i sicrhau eich bod yn parhau i fod mewn Llywodraeth. Ond yma, gallwch weld yn glir fod camweddau wedi'u gwneud wrth dderbyn y rhodd hon sydd wedi cael effaith ar eich rhagolygon. Ac rwyf wedi fy syfrdanu eto gyda'r cynnig hwn fod y Llywodraeth wedi cynnig gwelliant 'dileu popeth' ar ei gyfer.
Byddwn yn ymatal ar y cynnig hwn gan y credwn fod mwy o waith i’w wneud ar y cap ar roddion. Nid ydym yn credu ei bod yn anghywir i ystyried cap, ond a oes gan gwmpas y ddadl heddiw'r gallu i gyfleu’r holl deimladau sydd eu hangen i ddeall beth yw cyfarwyddyd a chwmpas y gwaith y bydd y Pwyllgor Busnes a’r pwyllgor safonau yn ei wneud? Ac felly dyna pam y bydd y Ceidwadwyr yn ymatal ar y cynnig, ond byddem yn barod i barhau i weithio gyda Phlaid Cymru ac unrhyw bleidiau eraill, fel y gall y Senedd fwrw ymlaen â'r gwaith hwn gyda dealltwriaeth gliriach o gylch gorchwyl y cyfarwyddyd, fel ein bod yn sicrhau nod ar ei gyfer yn hytrach na'i fod yn diflannu i lawr twll cwningen ac nad ydym yn cael yr ateb yr hoffai pob un ohonom ei weld.
Andrew R.T. Davies has made the same speech twice now, and it doesn't get better with repetition. I do need to respond to Sam Kurtz's point. The Development Bank of Wales said the loan—he was in the same committee I was, so he should have remembered it—the money, was allocated for a specific purpose that it was loaned for and could not be spent on any other matter because there was an audit trail. [Interruption.] Well, you can't perceive something that's already been proven not to be the case; there is no perception.
So, I'd like to address two issues: public approval and the annual maximum cap, because I think they are serious issues that do need to be addressed and I will finish with my views on it. And I know that my colleague Vikki Howells, as Chair of the standards committee, will address the final point of the motion.
Public approval—well, I think the problem we've got is if we start looking at these things from this lens, you're going to be bringing down the whole of this Senedd and damaging the Senedd's reputation across the political groups, because in 2019 £140,000 was donated to Plaid Cymru by Julian Dunkerton, co-founder of Superdry, and in 2022 that company had to pay £96,208 to a female employee after being found guilty of unfair dismissal and age discrimination. Now, the thing about that, businesses—they have these kinds of histories. Do we then say 'no' to all donations? [Interruption.] I'm not taking an intervention.
Mae Andrew R.T. Davies wedi gwneud yr un araith ddwywaith nawr, ac nid yw’n gwella o'i hailadrodd. Mae angen imi ymateb i bwynt Sam Kurtz. Dywedodd Banc Datblygu Cymru fod y benthyciad—roedd yn yr un pwyllgor â minnau, felly dylai fod wedi ei gofio—yr arian, wedi’i ddyrannu at y diben penodol y'i benthycwyd ac na ellid ei wario ar unrhyw fater arall gan fod trywydd archwilio. [Torri ar draws.] Wel, ni allwch ganfod rhywbeth y profwyd eisoes nad yw'n wir; nid oes canfyddiad.
Felly, hoffwn fynd i'r afael â dau fater: sêl bendith y cyhoedd a'r cap blynyddol, gan y credaf eu bod yn faterion difrifol y mae angen mynd i'r afael â nhw, ac rwyf am gloi gyda fy marn arnynt. A gwn y bydd fy nghyd-Aelod, Vikki Howells, fel Cadeirydd y pwyllgor safonau, yn rhoi sylw i bwynt olaf y cynnig.
Sêl bendith y cyhoedd—wel, credaf mai’r broblem sydd gennym yw os ydym yn dechrau edrych ar y pethau hyn drwy’r lens hon, fe fyddwch yn condemnio'r Senedd gyfan ac yn niweidio enw da’r Senedd ar draws y grwpiau gwleidyddol, oherwydd yn 2019, rhoddwyd £140,000 i Blaid Cymru gan Julian Dunkerton, cyd-sylfaenydd Superdry, ac yn 2022, bu’n rhaid i’r cwmni hwnnw dalu £96,208 i weithiwr benywaidd ar ôl eu cael yn euog o ddiswyddo annheg a gwahaniaethu ar sail oed. Nawr, y peth am hynny, busnesau—mae ganddynt y mathau hyn o hanes. A ydym wedyn yn dweud 'na' wrth bob rhodd? [Torri ar draws.] Nid wyf yn derbyn ymyriad.
[Inaudible.]
[Anghlywadwy.]
I'll come back to that in a second—
Dof yn ôl at hynny mewn eiliad—
[Inaudible.]—to respond.
[Anghlywadwy.]—i ymateb.
I think this needs to be highlighted. Just to be clear, I'm not criticising you for it. I'm not making a criticism. What I'm saying is—. [Interruption.] Two seconds. Let me just finish what I'm saying. This needs to show the inconsistencies that different Members in different parties are expected to comply with.
Credaf fod angen tynnu sylw at hyn. Er eglurder, nid wyf yn eich beirniadu yn ei gylch. Nid wyf yn beirniadu. Yr hyn rwy'n ei ddweud yw—. [Torri ar draws.] Dwy eiliad. Gadewch imi orffen yr hyn rwy'n ei ddweud. Mae angen i hyn ddangos yr anghysondebau y disgwylir i wahanol Aelodau mewn gwahanol bleidiau gydymffurfio â nhw.
If you're taking an intervention. I'm grateful to you for taking an intervention. You draw attention to one particular donation. I have to point out a number of things: (a) that was a party donation rather than an individual donation, which is what we're talking about today, and it pales into insignificance, by the way, compared to gifts and donations given to the Labour Party. That is a donation that was accepted three years before concerns were raised about employment rights.
Os ydych yn derbyn ymyriad. Rwy’n ddiolchgar ichi am dderbyn ymyriad. Rydych yn tynnu sylw at un rhodd benodol. Mae'n rhaid imi nodi nifer o bethau: (a) rhodd i'r blaid oedd honno yn hytrach na rhodd i unigolyn, sef yr hyn rydym yn sôn amdano heddiw, ac mae'n rhodd lawer llai, gyda llaw, o gymharu â rhoddion a chyfraniadau a roddwyd i'r Blaid Lafur. Derbyniwyd y rhodd honno dair blynedd cyn i bryderon gael eu codi am hawliau cyflogaeth.
You don't need to defend yourself.
Nid oes angen ichi amddiffyn eich hun.
The First Minister accepted this—three times the amount accepted by Plaid Cymru, after convictions for environmental crimes were pointed out. He also says that the questions around the Plaid Cymru donor—
Derbyniodd y Prif Weinidog y rhodd hon—tair gwaith y swm a dderbyniwyd gan Blaid Cymru, ar ôl i euogfarnau am droseddau amgylcheddol gael eu nodi. Mae hefyd yn dweud bod y cwestiynau ynghylch rhoddwr Plaid Cymru—
This is more than an intervention now.
Mae hwn yn fwy nag ymyriad nawr.
[Inaudible.]—intervention.
[Anghlywadwy.]—ymyriad.
This is a speech. [Interruption.] No, this is a speech.
Araith yw hon. [Torri ar draws.] Na, araith yw hon.
[Inaudible.]
[Anghlywadwy.]
But this is crucial—
Ond mae hyn yn hollbwysig—
I'm happy, Llywydd, to—. Whatever he's unhappy with about what I've said—
Rwy'n barod, Lywydd, i—. Beth bynnag y mae'n anhapus yn ei gylch yn yr hyn a ddywedais—
No, no. Let Rhun quickly finish.
Na, na. Gadewch i Rhun orffen yn gyflym.
I will quickly. And this specifically is around employers' rights. The First Minister also accepted £25,000 from Veezu taxi who have been the subject of complaints about employment rights within the last year.
Fe wnaf, yn gyflym. Ac mae hyn yn ymwneud yn benodol â hawliau cyflogaeth. Derbyniodd y Prif Weinidog hefyd £25,000 gan gwmni tacsis Veezu sydd wedi bod yn destun cwynion am hawliau cyflogaeth yn ystod y flwyddyn ddiwethaf.
Right. So, first of all, I'm happy to accept whatever he says, but it isn't the subject of the motion; the subject of the motion is a cap on donations. It isn't the subject of—. It doesn't actually mention the issues being raised—[Interruption.]
Iawn. Felly, yn gyntaf oll, rwy'n barod i dderbyn beth bynnag y mae'n ei ddweud, ond nid dyna destun y cynnig; testun y cynnig yw cap ar roddion. Nid yw'n destun—. Nid yw'n sôn, mewn gwirionedd, am y materion sy'n cael eu codi—[Torri ar draws.]
Allow the—
Gadewch i'r—
Okay, let's talk about individual donations then. On 10 March 2014, Ynys Môn Plaid Cymru received £121,891.43—[Interruption]. No. It received £121,891.43 from an individual—Ynys Môn Plaid Cymru. It was a few months after Rhun ap Iorwerth had been elected, in August, to this Senedd Chamber. It's on the Electoral Commission's website and, again, I'm not criticising that—[Interruption.] But the total donation to one constituency party—[Interruption.] The total donation to one constituency party—[Interruption.]
Iawn, gadewch inni sôn am roddion unigol felly. Ar 10 Mawrth 2014, derbyniodd Plaid Cymru Ynys Môn £121,891.43—[Torri ar draws]. Na. Derbyniodd £121,891.43 gan unigolyn—Plaid Cymru Ynys Môn. Roedd hynny ychydig fisoedd ar ôl i Rhun ap Iorwerth gael ei ethol, ym mis Awst, i Siambr y Senedd hon. Mae ar wefan y Comisiwn Etholiadol, ac unwaith eto, nid wyf yn beirniadu hynny—[Torri ar draws.] Ond cyfanswm y rhodd i'r blaid mewn un etholaeth—[Torri ar draws.] Cyfanswm y rhodd i'r blaid mewn un etholaeth—[Torri ar draws.]
It's for the Member to accept an intervention or not.
Mater i'r Aelod yw derbyn ymyriad ai peidio.
I'm not accepting an intervention. [Interruption.] I'm not accepting an intervention. [Interruption.] So, the total donation to one constituency party—
Nid wyf yn derbyn ymyriad. [Torri ar draws.] Nid wyf yn derbyn ymyriad. [Torri ar draws.] Felly, cyfanswm y rhodd i'r blaid mewn un etholaeth—
Sit down, Rhun ap Iorwerth.
Eisteddwch, Rhun ap Iorwerth.
—of £141,584.92 from one donor. Now, I can tell you the Caerphilly constituency party has probably got about £3,000 or £4,000 in the bank—I'm sure Delyth will be glad to know. But the Ynys Môn party was receiving a donation from the Electoral Commission for a total of £141,000. Now, why, then, didn't Rhun ap Iorwerth say, in 2013, when he had this in the bank in his constituency party, that there should've been a cap on donations then? It's an interesting question. [Interruption.] No. Because what I'm saying—. I'm not taking an intervention, no. I'm not being shouted down, Llywydd. Llywydd, I'm being shouted down by two sides for making reasonable points in a debate. [Interruption.]
—oedd £141,584.92 gan un rhoddwr. Nawr, gallaf ddweud wrthych mai oddeutu £3,000 neu £4,000 sydd yn y banc gan y blaid yn etholaeth Caerffili—rwy'n siŵr y bydd Delyth yn falch o glywed. Ond roedd y blaid yn Ynys Môn yn derbyn rhodd o £141,000 gan y Comisiwn Etholiadol. Nawr, pam, felly, na ddywedodd Rhun ap Iorwerth, yn 2013, pan oedd yr arian hwn yn y banc gan y blaid yn ei etholaeth, y dylai fod cap ar roddion bryd hynny? Mae'n gwestiwn diddorol. [Torri ar draws.] Na. Oherwydd yr hyn rwy'n ei ddweud—. Nid wyf yn derbyn ymyriad, nac ydw. Nid wyf am gael fy nistewi, Lywydd. Lywydd, mae'r ddwy ochr yn gweiddi arnaf am wneud pwyntiau rhesymol mewn dadl. [Torri ar draws.]
[Inaudible.]—shouted down by anybody other than me. You carry on, Hefin David.
[Anghlywadwy.]—cael eich distewi gan unrhyw un heblaw fi. Parhewch, Hefin David.
Thank you, Llywydd.
Diolch, Lywydd.
You can sit down now, Rhun ap Iorwerth.
Gallwch eistedd nawr, Rhun ap Iorwerth.
So, we do ask, 'Why didn't he raise the cap on donations then?' It's a reasonable question to ask, and I don't criticise him for it. If your constituency party receives that kind of money, then, absolutely fine, but don't be hypocritical. Let's remember that sanctimony is a close cousin of hypocrisy, and if you engage with sanctimony, sooner or later you're going to bump into hypocrisy, as Plaid Cymru have, unfortunately, today. [Interruption. ] No, I'm out of time.
So, what I would say is I don't really agree with the idea of publicly funded—getting the taxpayer to fund—political parties; I don't think that's right. But having said that, it is an interesting point that Plaid Cymru make in their motion. I won't be supporting it, because I think you would need to look at it in much more detail before you ask taxpayers to fund political parties and, indeed, individual candidates. But I think we do need to recognise the hypocrisy on all sides of the Chamber, both sides of the Chamber, here today, and if you just avoid sanctimony, you can avoid that. If we care about our democracy today, now's the time to move on.
Felly, rydym yn gofyn, 'Pam na chododd y cap ar roddion bryd hynny?' Mae’n gwestiwn rhesymol i’w ofyn, ac nid wyf yn ei feirniadu am hynny. Os yw'r blaid yn eich etholaeth yn derbyn y math hwnnw o arian, mae hynny'n berffaith iawn, ond peidiwch â bod yn rhagrithiol. Gadewch inni gofio bod ffugsancteiddrwydd yn gefnder agos i ragrith, ac os ydych yn ffugsanctaidd, yn hwyr neu'n hwyrach, rydych yn mynd i fod yn rhagrithiol, fel y mae Plaid Cymru wedi ei wneud heddiw, yn anffodus. [Torri ar draws.] Na, mae fy amser wedi dod i ben.
Felly, yr hyn y byddwn yn ei ddweud yw nad wyf yn cytuno â'r syniad o bleidiau gwleidyddol yn cael eu hariannu'n gyhoeddus—cael y trethdalwr i ariannu pleidiau gwleidyddol; ni chredaf fod hynny'n iawn. Ond wedi dweud hynny, mae Plaid Cymru yn gwneud pwynt diddorol yn eu cynnig. Nid wyf am ei gefnogi, gan y credaf y byddai angen ichi edrych arno’n llawer mwy manwl cyn ichi ofyn i drethdalwyr ariannu pleidiau gwleidyddol, ac ymgeiswyr unigol yn wir. Ond rwy'n credu bod angen inni gydnabod y rhagrith ar bob ochr i'r Siambr, y ddwy ochr i'r Siambr, yma heddiw, ac os llwyddwch i osgoi ffugsancteiddrwydd, gallwch osgoi hynny. Os ydym yn malio am ein democratiaeth heddiw, nawr yw'r amser i symud ymlaen.
I think that was a very poor contribution from my fellow Senedd Commissioner. I hope he wouldn't mind me saying that at the outset.
Look, money in politics, concerns about it—it's been one of the drivers of what we were talking about yesterday, the collapse in trust in democracy and in politicians, in politics. We've mostly been immune from it in Wales, because there haven't been many people with deep pockets that wanted to invest in politics. We now have that problem, as a result of what's happened, and I think it's important that we have a mature discussion about how we solve that problem.
There's been reference to approval ratings, hasn't there, in the context of what we're talking about. Look, set aside the party-political knockabout that we've just heard, right? Let's elevate the discussion to what's really important. I'm not really, in the short term, medium or long term, that interested in individual politicians' approval ratings or even parties; I am really concerned about the public approval for this institution and for our Welsh democracy. And, look, just objectively, I think it's very difficult to deny that that trust in our politics will have taken a hit, as a result of this donation and everything surrounding. I'm trying to be objective and step back here. I think it's undoubtedly the case. What this motion is trying to do is to come up with a solution to that, right?
We don't have the power to legislate in relation to campaign donations, political donations; that's reserved to Westminster. But we do have the power over our own Standing Orders and our code of conduct, which is what this motion is suggesting: that we actually introduce a cap in relation to that. Because there will be people out there, in a close election, who will perceive that the leadership of the Government, the leading position, the First Minister's job, was bought as a result of a donation. Political donations are given for one of two reasons. In one case, you have high net-worth individuals that actually have genuine—. You know, they have a record of political engagement, they strongly believe in a particular cause, a political party—that's one case. The other one is, suddenly, out of nowhere, they sign a cheque, and you're left wondering, 'Why did I sign that cheque?' Does anyone know why David Neal gave this money to Vaughan Gething? Because I certainly don't, and I think many people will be asking that question.
We have to respond to this situation collectively, across parties, and the way we do that is to set a cap on what's acceptable for Members of the Senedd to receive. I'm disappointed the Conservatives aren't able to support it now, but I hope, in further discussion, that they will. Certainly, on the Labour benches—set aside what's happened for one minute, and think about the future. Think about the future. You say you want to move on. Well, think about moving on, right? Think about actually having rules, so that we can go out there and we can all be proud of the rules that we have over our democracy in Wales.
The Committee on Standards in Public Life proposed a cap on individual donations—the kind of caps that, as Rhun said, exist in many, many countries. I think in Ireland it's as low as—what is it? About €250—it's a few hundred euros. Look, we can do that in Wales for our Senedd. That's what the Committee on Standards in Public Life was calling for 13 years ago, and it was blocked in Westminster. We have the power to set a different standard here in terms of our democracy because no-one should ever be left thinking that money talks, that money is able to control the future of our politics, of our democracy. It's in all of our interests, every party represented here, all of us who believe in our democracy, that we do what this motion says: we set a standard for our democracy in Wales that says that money, access to money, should never play any part in the future of our country; we do things differently here based on one person, one vote, not the size of a chequebook deciding our political future.
Rwy'n credu bod hwnnw’n gyfraniad gwael iawn gan fy nghyd-Gomisiynydd y Senedd. Rwy'n gobeithio nad oes ots ganddo fy mod yn dweud hynny ar y dechrau.
Edrychwch, mae arian mewn gwleidyddiaeth, pryderon yn ei gylch—mae wedi bod yn un o ysgogiadau'r hyn y buom yn sôn amdano ddoe, y lleihad mewn ymddiriedaeth mewn democratiaeth ac mewn gwleidyddion, mewn gwleidyddiaeth. Rydym wedi bod yn imiwn rhagddo yng Nghymru ar y cyfan, gan nad oes llawer o bobl â phocedi dwfn wedi bod yn awyddus i fuddsoddi mewn gwleidyddiaeth. Mae’r broblem honno gennym nawr, o ganlyniad i’r hyn sydd wedi digwydd, a chredaf ei bod yn bwysig inni gael trafodaeth aeddfed ynglŷn â sut y gwnawn ddatrys y broblem honno.
Cyfeiriwyd at lefelau cymeradwyaeth, oni wnaed, yng nghyd-destun yr hyn rydym yn sôn amdano. Edrychwch, rhowch y gorau i'r dadleuon hyn rhwng pleidiau gwleidyddol yr ydym newydd eu clywed, iawn? Gadewch inni ddyrchafu'r drafodaeth i'r hyn sy'n wirioneddol bwysig. Nid oes diddordeb gennyf yn y lefelau cymeradwyaeth i wleidyddion unigol na hyd yn oed pleidiau yn y tymor byr, y tymor canolig na'r tymor hir; rwy’n bryderus iawn am gymeradwyaeth y cyhoedd i’r sefydliad hwn ac i’n democratiaeth yng Nghymru. Ac edrychwch, yn wrthrychol, credaf ei bod yn anodd iawn gwadu y bydd yr ymddiriedaeth honno yn ein gwleidyddiaeth wedi cael ergyd, o ganlyniad i'r rhodd hon a phopeth o'i chwmpas. Rwy'n ceisio bod yn wrthrychol a chamu'n ôl yma. Rwy'n credu bod hynny'n sicr yn wir. Yr hyn y mae’r cynnig hwn yn ceisio ei wneud yw dod o hyd i ateb i hynny, onid e?
Nid oes gennym bŵer i ddeddfu mewn perthynas â rhoddion i ymgyrchoedd, rhoddion gwleidyddol; mae hwnnw'n fater a gedwir yn ôl i San Steffan. Ond mae gennym bŵer dros ein Rheolau Sefydlog ein hunain a'n cod ymddygiad, sef yr hyn y mae'r cynnig hwn yn ei awgrymu: ein bod yn cyflwyno cap mewn perthynas â hynny. Oherwydd bydd rhai pobl, mewn etholiad agos, o'r farn fod arweinyddiaeth y Llywodraeth, y rôl uchaf, swydd y Prif Weinidog, wedi'i phrynu o ganlyniad i rodd. Rhoddir rhoddion gwleidyddol am un o ddau reswm. Mewn un achos, mae gennych unigolion cyfoethog a chanddynt hanes gwirioneddol—. Hynny yw, mae ganddynt hanes o ymgysylltiad gwleidyddol, maent yn credu'n gryf mewn achos penodol, plaid wleidyddol—dyna un achos. Yr achos arall yw, yn sydyn, o unman, maent yn arwyddo siec, ac rydych chi wedyn yn pendroni, 'Pam y gwnes i arwyddo'r siec honno?' A oes unrhyw un yn gwybod pam fod David Neal wedi rhoi'r arian hwn i Vaughan Gething? Oherwydd yn sicr, nid wyf i'n gwybod, ac rwy'n credu y bydd llawer o bobl yn gofyn y cwestiwn hwnnw.
Mae'n rhaid inni ymateb i'r sefyllfa hon gyda'n gilydd, ar draws y pleidiau, a'r ffordd y gwnawn hynny yw drwy osod cap ar yr hyn sy'n dderbyniol i Aelodau'r Senedd ei dderbyn. Rwy’n siomedig nad yw’r Ceidwadwyr yn gallu cefnogi'r cynnig nawr, ond rwy'n gobeithio, mewn trafodaethau pellach, y gallant wneud hynny. Yn sicr, ar feinciau Llafur—anghofiwch yr hyn sydd wedi digwydd am funud, a meddyliwch am y dyfodol. Meddyliwch am y dyfodol. Rydych yn dweud eich bod am symud ymlaen. Wel, meddyliwch am symud ymlaen, iawn? Meddyliwch am gael rheolau, fel y gallwn fynd allan yno a gall pob un ohonom fod yn falch o'r rheolau sydd gennym dros ein democratiaeth yng Nghymru.
Cynigiodd y Pwyllgor Safonau mewn Bywyd Cyhoeddus gap ar roddion i unigolion—y math o gapiau sydd, fel y dywedodd Rhun, yn bodoli mewn llawer iawn o wledydd. Yn Iwerddon, rwy'n credu ei fod mor isel—beth ydyw? Oddeutu €250—ychydig gannoedd o ewros. Edrychwch, gallwn wneud hynny yng Nghymru ar ran ein Senedd. Dyna y galwai'r Pwyllgor Safonau mewn Bywyd Cyhoeddus amdano 13 mlynedd yn ôl, a chafodd ei atal yn San Steffan. Mae gennym bŵer i osod safon wahanol yma ar gyfer ein democratiaeth gan na ddylai unrhyw un fod o dan yr argraff fod arian yn siarad, fod arian yn gallu rheoli dyfodol ein gwleidyddiaeth, ein democratiaeth. Mae er budd pob un ohonom, pob plaid a gynrychiolir yma, pob un ohonom sy’n credu yn ein democratiaeth, i wneud yr hyn y mae’r cynnig hwn yn ei ddweud: gosod safon ar gyfer ein democratiaeth yng Nghymru sy’n dweud na ddylai arian, mynediad at arian, fyth chwarae unrhyw ran yn nyfodol ein gwlad; rydym yn gwneud pethau'n wahanol yma yn seiliedig ar egwyddor un unigolyn, un bleidlais, nid maint llyfr siec i bennu ein dyfodol gwleidyddol.
I want to make it clear that I'll be speaking this afternoon in my capacity, and solely in my capacity, as Chair of the Standards of Conduct Committee, and I will be addressing the points in the motion, which refer specifically to that committee.
As Chair of the standards committee, I welcome any debate about Member accountability; it serves as an important reminder to all Members of their responsibility to register and declare both registerable and relevant interests to ensure maximum transparency and confidence in this Senedd.
The register of interests is key in allowing the public to see the interests held by Members. The guidance on the registration, declaration and recording of financial and other interests is quite clear that these requirements are neither optional nor voluntary. Standing Order 2 sets out the requirements for Members in terms of registering and declaring interests, and the annex to that Standing Order has 10 categories of registerable interest. There is also a requirement to register relevant interests captured under Standing Orders 13.8A and 17.24A. This is broader in scope than the requirements under Standing Order 2. And candour is essential from each of us in deciding whether a declaration is required under this Standing Order or not. The committee has a responsibility for ensuring that the register is maintained and accessible. We have periodically reviewed the requirements on Members, and we will continue to ensure that regular reviews of the register and the registration process are undertaken.
Last summer, as part of this review process, the committee ran a public consultation on the registration and declaration of interests. The evidence we gathered from this consultation raised a number of issues that we are in the process of taking forward. These include, for example, the need for Members to now add an estimated value for gifts and hospitality, as well as the introduction of a new miscellaneous category to allow Members to register matters that may be of interest to the public, but which are not captured elsewhere in the register. This consultation was shaped in part from issues brought to the committee's attention by Members on the registration and declaration of interests. The responses received highlighted a need for some changes to what interests are registered and the information that needs to be provided and published to ensure maximum transparency. We will be looking carefully at best practice elsewhere to ensure that the Senedd's register is as transparent, if not more so, as those of comparable Parliaments. The committee will therefore be bringing forward proposals to amend the registration requirements as set out in Standing Orders for the seventh Senedd.
Alongside the responsibilities of the committee and the Senedd, the Electoral Commission, of course, also has an important role in regulating donations and loans to political parties and politicians. Currently, the Senedd and the Electoral Commission require different levels of detail of Members when registering the same donations, so we will look to ensure consistency in this regard in future.
The committee is always happy to consider any input from Members or others in our work on the register of interests, so I would like to encourage Members to continue to engage with the committee as our work on this matter progresses. Diolch.
Hoffwn ddweud yn glir y byddaf yn siarad y prynhawn yma yn rhinwedd fy swydd, a dim ond yn rhinwedd fy swydd, fel Cadeirydd y Pwyllgor Safonau Ymddygiad, a byddaf yn rhoi sylw i’r pwyntiau yn y cynnig, sy’n cyfeirio’n benodol at y pwyllgor hwnnw.
Fel Cadeirydd y pwyllgor safonau, rwy'n croesawu unrhyw ddadl am atebolrwydd Aelodau; mae’n ffordd bwysig o atgoffa pob Aelod o’u cyfrifoldeb i gofrestru a datgan buddiannau cofrestradwy a pherthnasol er mwyn sicrhau’r tryloywder a’r hyder mwyaf yn y Senedd hon.
Mae'r gofrestr o fuddiannau yn allweddol er mwyn galluogi'r cyhoedd i weld buddiannau'r Aelodau. Mae'r canllawiau ar gofrestru, datgan a chofnodi buddiannau ariannol a buddiannau eraill yn nodi'n gwbl glir nad yw'r gofynion hyn yn ddewisol nac yn wirfoddol. Mae Rheol Sefydlog 2 yn nodi’r gofynion i Aelodau gofrestru a datgan buddiannau, ac mae gan yr atodiad i’r Rheol Sefydlog honno 10 categori o fuddiannau cofrestradwy. Mae gofyniad hefyd i gofrestru buddiannau perthnasol o dan Reolau Sefydlog 13.8A a 17.24A. Mae cwmpas y gofyniad hwn yn ehangach na'r gofynion o dan Reol Sefydlog 2. Ac mae gonestrwydd yn hanfodol i bob un ohonom wrth benderfynu a oes angen datganiad o dan y Rheol Sefydlog hon ai peidio. Mae'r pwyllgor yn gyfrifol am sicrhau bod y gofrestr yn cael ei chadw a'i bod yn hygyrch. Rydym wedi adolygu’r gofynion ar Aelodau o bryd i’w gilydd, a byddwn yn parhau i sicrhau y cynhelir adolygiadau rheolaidd o’r gofrestr a’r broses gofrestru.
Yr haf diwethaf, yn rhan o’r broses adolygu hon, cynhaliodd y pwyllgor ymgynghoriad cyhoeddus ar gofrestru a datgan buddiannau. Cododd y dystiolaeth a gasglwyd gennym o’r ymgynghoriad hwn nifer o faterion yr ydym yn y broses o fynd i'r afael â nhw. Mae’r rhain yn cynnwys, er enghraifft, yr angen i Aelodau ychwanegu amcangyfrif o werth ar gyfer rhoddion a lletygarwch, yn ogystal â chyflwyno categori amrywiol newydd i ganiatáu i Aelodau gofrestru materion a allai fod o ddiddordeb i’r cyhoedd, ond nad oes lle priodol iddynt mewn mannau eraill ar y gofrestr. Lluniwyd yr ymgynghoriad hwn yn rhannol gan faterion a gafodd eu dwyn i sylw'r pwyllgor gan Aelodau ar gofrestru a datgan buddiannau. Amlygodd yr ymatebion a ddaeth i law yr angen am rai newidiadau i ba fuddiannau sy'n cael eu cofrestru a'r wybodaeth y mae angen ei darparu a'i chyhoeddi er mwyn sicrhau'r tryloywder mwyaf posibl. Byddwn yn edrych yn ofalus ar arferion gorau mewn mannau eraill i sicrhau bod cofrestr y Senedd mor dryloyw â rhai Seneddau tebyg, os nad yn fwy felly. Felly, bydd y pwyllgor yn cyflwyno cynigion i ddiwygio’r gofynion cofrestru fel y’u nodir yn y Rheolau Sefydlog ar gyfer y seithfed Senedd.
Ochr yn ochr â chyfrifoldebau’r pwyllgor a’r Senedd, mae gan y Comisiwn Etholiadol rôl bwysig hefyd yn rheoleiddio rhoddion a benthyciadau i bleidiau gwleidyddol a gwleidyddion. Ar hyn o bryd, mae angen lefelau gwahanol o fanylion ar y Senedd a’r Comisiwn Etholiadol wrth gofrestru’r un rhoddion, felly byddwn yn ceisio sicrhau cysondeb yn hyn o beth yn y dyfodol.
Mae’r pwyllgor bob amser yn fwy na pharod i ystyried unrhyw fewnbwn gan Aelodau neu eraill yn ein gwaith ar y gofrestr o fuddiannau, felly hoffwn annog yr Aelodau i barhau i ymgysylltu â’r pwyllgor wrth i’n gwaith ar y mater hwn fynd rhagddo. Diolch.
I particularly want to just thank you, Adam, for just bringing the debate back to what's important here, and reflecting as well, whilst listening, both to the previous debate and this one, about some of the debates we've been having, looking at Senedd reform, about the barriers to participation, why people don't stand for election currently, and why we don't reflect the whole of the population. And some of that is money, because how many people can afford to take unpaid leave? How many of us actually went into debt standing for election and started here with a minus bank account? Because that is the reality for some people here, and many of those that weren't successful in being elected here. And I'm passionate about ensuring that money should never be a barrier to anyone thinking that they couldn't be here.
But neither should money be a barrier for anybody wanting to be First Minister of our country. Every child in Wales that visits here, when we go into schools, should also be able to believe that they could, one day, be First Minister. That's something we tell them. But if they look at the donations here—and many of them are interested in this, they've picked up on it, just as they did with 20 mph—. To think we're not talking about £200,000 are we, really, we're talking about £321,600 in cash, £24,200 in kind, for one leadership campaign—that's really difficult to justify. When we are going round our constituencies and regions, yes, the issues that the First Minister wants us to discuss, such as cost of living, are what we're seeing, but how can we say that we're addressing some things but act in a different way? And I think that's the crux of the matter here—that something has happened that we can debate whether any rules were broken, but the current First Minister's judgment has to be brought into question, and that's why this question isn't going away, and why we need to take steps to restore trust.
The review into campaign finance we need is public, and it should be answerable to the people of Wales, not the membership of the Labour Party. We are calling today, therefore, for the Senedd to up its game, to ensure that our democracy, as has been said, cannot be bought. We know the damage that questionable campaign finances can have on our democratic institutions. It's been brought into sharp focus in recent weeks. And as we've already heard, there are many international examples of best practice that we might look to draw on as we seek to prevent any further undermining of the integrity of Welsh democracy. Isn't it apt that we have this debate at a time of Senedd reform where we talk about making ourselves more accountable, more representative? Well, why not ensure that we are completely different in terms of donations as well? We are calling for that cap on political donations that any individual Members of the Senedd can receive from any individual or entity, and I see no reason why this proposal should not garner the support of all of us in this Siambr.
I know that Members across the Senedd, including on the Labour benches, have been deeply troubled by the First Minister's poor judgment and also the impact this whole sorry episode has had on the faith of the people we represent. It has undermined public trust in our democracy. And therefore I would invite you to join us on the road to restoring that trust. It is disappointing that the First Minister isn't here. It is disappointing that the First Minister seems to dismiss the concerns raised, rather than address them head on: £321,600 in cash, £24,200 in kind—do we really think that's acceptable to become First Minister? I certainly don't, and neither does anyone that I represent, that I've spoken to on this matter—and people have views, trust me, in Pontypridd market, on this issue. So, let's ensure this never happens again. But the questions remain, and I think the First Minister has to pay that money back, because, if we want to move on, that's the only way that trust can truly be restored. And he can't continue to dismiss this. This is a serious issue, and he should be here to answer, and he should pay the money back.
Hoffwn ddiolch yn arbennig i chi, Adam, am droi’r ddadl yn ôl at yr hyn sy’n bwysig yma, ac adlewyrchu hefyd, wrth wrando, ar y ddadl flaenorol a’r ddadl hon, ar rai o’r dadleuon rydym wedi bod yn eu cael, i edrych ar ddiwygio’r Senedd, am y rhwystrau i gyfranogiad, pam nad yw pobl yn sefyll etholiadau ar hyn o bryd, a pham nad ydym yn adlewyrchu’r boblogaeth gyfan. Ac arian yw'r rheswm am rywfaint o hynny, oherwydd faint o bobl a all fforddio cymryd gwyliau di-dâl? Faint ohonom a aeth i ddyled wrth sefyll etholiad, a dechrau yma gyda chyfrif banc yn y coch? Oherwydd dyna'r realiti i rai pobl yma, ac i lawer o'r rhai na lwyddodd i gael eu hethol yma. Ac rwy'n angerddol am sicrhau na ddylai arian byth fod yn rhwystr i unrhyw un feddwl na allent fod yma.
Ond ni ddylai arian ychwaith fod yn rhwystr i unrhyw un sydd am fod yn Brif Weinidog ein gwlad. Dylai pob plentyn yng Nghymru sy’n ymweld â’r fan hon, pan awn i ysgolion, allu credu y gallent hwythau hefyd fod yn Brif Weinidog rhyw ddiwrnod. Mae hynny'n rhywbeth rydym yn ei ddweud wrthynt. Ond os ydynt yn edrych ar y rhoddion yma—ac mae gan lawer ohonynt ddiddordeb yn hyn, maent wedi clywed amdano, yn union fel y gwnaethant gyda'r terfyn 20 mya—. I feddwl nad ydym yn sôn am £200,000, mewn gwirionedd, rydym yn sôn am £321,600 mewn arian parod, £24,200 mewn ffyrdd eraill, ar gyfer un ymgyrch arweinyddiaeth—mae hynny'n anodd iawn ei gyfiawnhau. Pan fyddwn yn mynd o amgylch ein hetholaethau a’n rhanbarthau, rydym yn gweld y materion y mae’r Prif Weinidog am i ni eu trafod, megis costau byw, ond sut y gallwn ddweud ein bod yn mynd i’r afael â rhai pethau ond yn gweithredu mewn ffordd wahanol? A chredaf mai dyna yw craidd y mater—fod rhywbeth wedi digwydd lle gallwn drafod a dorrwyd unrhyw reolau, ond mae'n rhaid cwestiynu doethineb y Prif Weinidog presennol, a dyna pam nad yw'r cwestiwn hwn yn mynd i ddiflannu, a pham fod angen inni gymryd camau i adfer ymddiriedaeth.
Mae arnom angen adolygiad cyhoeddus o gyllid ymgyrchoedd, a dylai fod yn atebol i bobl Cymru, nid aelodaeth y Blaid Lafur. Rydym yn galw heddiw, felly, ar y Senedd i wneud mwy, er mwyn sicrhau na ellir prynu ein democratiaeth, fel y dywedwyd. Gwyddom faint o niwed y gall cyllid ymgyrchoedd amheus ei wneud i'n sefydliadau democrataidd. Mae wedi dod i amlygrwydd clir yn ystod yr wythnosau diwethaf. Ac fel y clywsom eisoes, mae llawer o enghreifftiau rhyngwladol o arferion gorau y gallem geisio eu hefelychu wrth inni geisio atal unrhyw danseilio pellach ar uniondeb democratiaeth Cymru. Onid yw’n briodol ein bod yn cael y ddadl hon ar adeg o ddiwygio’r Senedd lle rydym yn sôn am wneud ein hunain yn fwy atebol, yn fwy cynrychioliadol? Wel, beth am sicrhau ein bod yn hollol wahanol o ran rhoddion hefyd? Rydym yn galw am gap ar y rhoddion gwleidyddol y gall unrhyw Aelod unigol o'r Senedd eu derbyn gan unrhyw unigolyn neu endid, ac ni welaf unrhyw reswm pam na ddylai’r cynnig hwn ennyn cefnogaeth pob un ohonom yn y Siambr hon.
Gwn fod Aelodau ar draws y Senedd, gan gynnwys ar y meinciau Llafur, yn pryderu'n fawr ynglŷn â diffyg doethineb y Prif Weinidog yn ogystal â'r effaith y mae’r bennod druenus hon wedi’i chael ar ffydd y bobl a gynrychiolwn. Mae wedi tanseilio hyder y cyhoedd yn ein democratiaeth. Ac felly, carwn eich gwahodd i ymuno â ni ar y llwybr i adfer yr hyder hwnnw. Mae’n siomedig nad yw’r Prif Weinidog yma. Mae’n siomedig fod y Prif Weinidog, yn ôl pob golwg, yn diystyru’r pryderon a godwyd, yn hytrach nag ymateb yn uniongyrchol iddynt: £321,600 mewn arian parod, £24,200 mewn ffyrdd eraill—a ydym o ddifrif yn credu bod hynny’n dderbyniol er mwyn dod yn Brif Weinidog? Nid wyf i'n credu hynny, yn sicr, ac nid oes unrhyw un rwy'n eu cynrychioli yr wyf wedi siarad â nhw am y mater yn credu hynny ychwaith—ac mae gan bobl farn gref, credwch fi, ym marchnad Pontypridd, ar y mater hwn. Felly, gadewch inni sicrhau nad yw hyn byth yn digwydd eto. Ond erys y cwestiynau, ac rwy'n credu bod yn rhaid i’r Prif Weinidog dalu’r arian hwnnw yn ôl, oherwydd, os ydym am symud ymlaen, dyna’r unig ffordd y gellir adfer ymddiriedaeth go iawn. Ac ni all barhau i ddiystyru hyn. Mae hwn yn fater difrifol, a dylai fod yma i ateb, a dylai dalu'r arian yn ôl.
I've been struggling to process my feelings about the issues before us today, and this is a speech I would rather have avoided. Immediately on the news of the donation coming out, I said I thought it was unjustifiable and wrong—that's a matter of record—and I've not changed my view. Two hundred thousand pounds is a staggering amount of money, unprecedented in Welsh politics, and over four times larger than the £45,000 spending cap the Labour Party set to ensure a fair contest. And the fact it came from a waste company with a conviction for damaging the Gwent levels, at a time when some of us were fighting hard to protect this sensitive area, really shocked me. Genuinely, it shocked me.
Now, the First Minister has said that the donations to his campaign were checked and filed properly with the Electoral Commission and declared to the Senedd and there is no case to answer. But I think the issue is not whether the paperwork was correct; the issue is whether the judgment was correct. Now, I welcome the appointment of Carwyn Jones to look at the rules for future elections, and the suggestion in Plaid's motion of a spending cap for each of us is worthy of consideration, but to agree to it today would prejudge the review. And I suspect he may well come up with something similar, but I want to give that process time to test the arguments properly and to consider unintended consequences. So, I won't support the Plaid motion. I will support the Government. But I hope the First Minister reflects on my concerns and takes them in the spirit that they're intended.
The Conservative motion, as Hefin David quite rightly said, is based on a false premise. As a former Minister in the economy department, I know that decisions on loans from the development bank are made at arm's length, precisely to avoid conflicts of interest. So, the First Minister is absolutely spot on about that. And the Tories, if I may say, would have more credibility if they had stood up when the last two Home Secretaries, the Chancellor, and even the former Prime Minister, Boris Johnson, were not just accused of breaking the ministerial code but were judged to have actually broken the ministerial code. But what did Rishi Sunak and the Welsh Conservatives have to say about that? Not a dicky-bird.
So, we can all see through their double standards, but the reason I'm speaking this afternoon is because we're meant to be better than that. The point about devolution, this place—a Parliament we have created from scratch—is that we set higher standards. Twenty-five years ago, we talked of devolution as the beginning of a new politics, but the reputation of politics and politicians seems to be lower than ever. The First Minister has said that he does not believe his approval ratings have been affected by the controversy, and I must say that surprised me and it troubled me. Whether the polls bear that out or not, it really isn't the point. Surely the question isn't what any of us can get away with; it's what is right. And the fact that some voters just shrug their shoulders—that's what should worry us. Far from being an endorsement, I fear it's a reflection that we are all tarred with the same brush. And we all get it: 'You're all the same,' 'You're in it for yourselves,' 'You're on the make.' Not only is it demoralising for many of us who see politics as a genuine public service, a sacrifice, but it is also dangerous to the fabric of our democracy at a time when it's already under huge strain. Academics call it 'norm spoiling'. They say that when accepted standards of behaviours—norms—are undermined, it lowers expectations, and that lays the ground for a new set of weaker standards to take hold. That's why we need to confront this situation, and I'm deeply uncomfortable the way I'm now, in effect, being expected to endorse something I just think is wrong, and I haven't spoken out since the donation came to light 10 weeks ago, because I wanted to give time for the issue to be addressed, but it hasn't been.
So, to be clear: for me, this is not an issue of confidence, but it is an issue of conscience. We look to our leaders to model behaviour we want to see, to reflect our nation and to set an example. It's an awesome responsibility, and it's especially important in a democracy as young as ours. The ministerial code says, and I quote,
'ministers remain personally responsible for adhering to the Code and the decisions they take'.
It doesn't need an independent arbiter to uphold; it's a code of honour. Nor is the ministerial code a legal contract. The test isn't how to find a loophole; it's a code of ethics. Now, this situation can be put right. I hope it is put right. But the first step to solving any problem is to acknowledge that there is a problem. And it would not be a sign of weakness to say that it was a mistake to take the donation and, now all the facts are known, to give it back. It can still be done, in my view it should be done, and sometimes doing the right thing is the hardest thing, but you rarely regret it in the end. Diolch.
Rwyf wedi'i chael hi'n anodd prosesu fy nheimladau am y materion ger ein bron heddiw, ac mae hon yn araith y byddai’n well gennyf fod wedi’i hosgoi. Pan gyhoeddwyd y newyddion am y rhodd, dywedais yn syth fy mod yn credu ei bod yn gyfeiliornus ac na ellid ei chyfiawnhau—mae hynny wedi'i gofnodi—ac nid yw fy marn wedi newid. Mae £200,000 yn swm syfrdanol o arian, na welwyd ei debyg yng ngwleidyddiaeth Cymru, a thros bedair gwaith yn fwy na’r cap gwario o £45,000 a osodwyd gan y Blaid Lafur i sicrhau cystadleuaeth deg. A chefais fy syfrdanu’n fawr iddo ddod gan gwmni gwastraff sydd ag euogfarn am wneud niwed i wastadeddau Gwent, ar adeg pan oedd rhai ohonom yn brwydro’n galed i warchod yr ardal sensitif hon. O ddifrif, fe wnaeth fy syfrdanu.
Nawr, mae’r Prif Weinidog wedi dweud bod y rhoddion i’w ymgyrch wedi’u gwirio a’u ffeilio’n gywir gyda’r Comisiwn Etholiadol a’u datgan i’r Senedd ac nad oes achos i’w ateb. Ond ni chredaf mai'r hyn sydd dan sylw yw a oedd y gwaith papur yn gywir; y mater dan sylw yw a oedd ei ddoethineb yn gywir. Nawr, rwy'n croesawu penodi Carwyn Jones i edrych ar y rheolau ar gyfer etholiadau yn y dyfodol, ac mae’r awgrym yng nghynnig Plaid Cymru o gap gwariant i bob un ohonom yn haeddu ystyriaeth, ond byddai cytuno iddo heddiw yn rhagfarnu’r adolygiad. Ac rwy'n amau efallai y bydd yn dweud rhywbeth tebyg yn y pen draw, ond hoffwn roi amser i'r broses honno brofi'r dadleuon yn iawn ac ystyried y canlyniadau anfwriadol. Felly, ni fyddaf yn cefnogi cynnig Plaid Cymru. Byddaf yn cefnogi’r Llywodraeth. Ond rwy'n gobeithio y bydd y Prif Weinidog yn myfyrio ar fy mhryderon ac yn eu cymryd yn yr ysbryd y'u bwriedir.
Mae cynnig y Ceidwadwyr, fel y dywedodd Hefin David yn gywir ddigon, yn seiliedig ar ragosodiad ffug. Fel cyn-Weinidog yn adran yr economi, gwn fod penderfyniadau ar fenthyciadau gan y banc datblygu yn cael eu gwneud ar sail hyd braich, er mwyn osgoi gwrthdaro buddiannau. Felly, mae’r Prif Weinidog yn hollol iawn yn hynny o beth. A byddai gan y Torïaid, os caf ddweud, fwy o hygrededd pe baent wedi codi eu llais pan gafodd y ddau Ysgrifennydd Cartref diwethaf, y Canghellor, a hyd yn oed cyn-Brif Weinidog y DU, Boris Johnson, nid yn unig eu cyhuddo o dorri cod y Gweinidogion ond eu dyfarnu o fod wedi torri cod y Gweinidogion. Ond beth a oedd gan Rishi Sunak a’r Ceidwadwyr Cymreig i’w ddweud am hynny? Dim o gwbl.
Felly, gall pob un ohonom weld drwy eu safonau dwbl, ond y rheswm pam fy mod siarad y prynhawn yma yw am ein bod i fod yn well na hynny. Y pwynt am ddatganoli, y lle hwn—Senedd a grëwyd gennym o’r newydd—yw ein bod yn gosod safonau uwch. Bum mlynedd ar hugain yn ôl, roeddem yn sôn am ddatganoli fel dechrau gwleidyddiaeth newydd, ond ymddengys bod llai o enw da gan wleidyddiaeth a gwleidyddion nag erioed. Mae’r Prif Weinidog wedi dweud nad yw’n credu bod ei lefelau cymeradwyaeth wedi’u heffeithio gan y ddadl, ac mae'n rhaid imi ddweud bod hynny wedi fy synnu a fy mhoeni. Nid i ba raddau y mae'r arolygon barn yn cadarnhau hynny yw'r pwynt. Yn sicr, nid y cwestiwn yw beth y gall unrhyw un ohonom osgoi cael ein cosbi am ei wneud; y cwestiwn yw beth sy'n iawn. A'r ffaith bod rhai pleidleiswyr yn ddi-hid—dyna ddylai ein poeni. Ymhell o fod yn gymeradwyaeth, ofnaf ei fod yn awgrymu bod pob un ohonom wedi ein paentio â'r un brwsh. Ac mae pob un ohonom yn ei glywed: 'Rydych i gyd yr un peth,' 'Rydych yn ei wneud er eich lles eich hun,' 'Rydych yn ceisio eich mantais ei hun.' Nid yn unig fod hynny'n dorcalonnus i lawer ohonom sy’n ystyried gwleidyddiaeth yn wasanaeth cyhoeddus diffuant, yn aberth, mae hefyd yn beryglus i wead ein democratiaeth ar adeg pan fo'r ddemocratiaeth honno eisoes dan straen aruthrol. Mae academyddion yn ei alw'n 'ddinistrio'r norm'. Pan fydd safonau ymddygiad cyffredin—normau—yn cael eu tanseilio, maent yn dweud bod disgwyliadau'n gostwng, ac mae hynny’n gosod y sylfaen ar gyfer set newydd o safonau gwannach. Dyna pam fod angen inni fynd i'r afael â'r sefyllfa hon, ac rwy'n anghyfforddus iawn ynglŷn â'r ffordd y disgwylir imi i bob pwrpas gymeradwyo rhywbeth y credaf ei fod anghywir, ac nid wyf wedi codi fy llais ers i'r newyddion am y rhodd ddod i'r amlwg 10 wythnos yn ôl, gan fy mod am roi amser i’r mater gael ei ddatrys, ond nid yw hynny wedi digwydd.
Felly, er eglurder: i mi, nid mater o hyder yw hwn, ond mater o gydwybod. Edrychwn at ein harweinwyr i fodelu'r ymddygiad rydym am ei weld, i adlewyrchu ein cenedl ac i osod esiampl. Mae'n gyfrifoldeb aruthrol, ac mae'n arbennig o bwysig mewn democratiaeth mor ifanc â'n democratiaeth ni. Mae cod y Gweinidogion yn nodi,
'ar y Gweinidogion eu hunain y mae’r cyfrifoldeb o hyd am lynu wrth y Cod ac am y penderfyniadau a wnânt.'
Nid oes angen canolwr annibynnol i'w gynnal; mae'n god anrhydedd. Nid yw cod y Gweinidogion yn gontract cyfreithiol ychwaith. Nid y prawf yw sut i ddod o hyd i fwlch ynddo; mae'n god moesol. Nawr, gellir unioni'r sefyllfa hon. Rwy'n gobeithio y caiff ei hunioni. Ond y cam cyntaf i ddatrys unrhyw broblem yw cydnabod bod yna broblem. Ac ni fyddai'n arwydd o wendid i ddweud mai camgymeriad oedd derbyn y rhodd, a chan fod yr holl ffeithiau'n hysbys nawr, ei rhoi yn ôl. Gellir gwneud hynny o hyd, a dylid gwneud hynny yn fy marn i, ac weithiau, gwneud y peth iawn yw'r peth anoddaf, ond anaml y byddwch yn difaru gwneud hynny yn y pen draw. Diolch.
A hundred and fifty miles from here, there is a palace on the Thames where the stench doesn't only come from the dirty water. In Westminster, the rot has seeped into the walls, bringing down the house with the weight of a corrupt and festering culture. We do not want our Senedd to be sullied with the same scandals that are common in Westminster. The whole point of devolution is that we can and should do things differently in Wales, that we can and should expect better for our Welsh democracy. More than a motorway should separate this Senedd from that rotting palace, the place of brown envelopes, cash for honours, illicit lobbyists, a place where, in the midst of a public health crisis, the Government set up a crooked VIP lane to make their rich friends richer, a place where policy can be bought and influence sold to the highest bidder, where—in the words of a former Cabinet Minister—an integrity vacuum has been created.
We should not seek to follow their example, because let's remind ourselves of that culture from which we must differentiate ourselves. Frank Hester gave at least £10 million to the Conservative Party in the past year. His healthcare technology firm TPP has been paid more than £400 million by the NHS and other Government bodies since 2016. He has profited from £135 million of contracts with the Department for Health and Social Care in less than four years. In March of this year, comments that Hester had made about a former Labour frontbencher, Diane Abbott, making him want to hate all black women, were reported by Abbott to the Metropolitan Police. Malik Karim, who has given the Conservatives £1.6 million since 2014, and is a former party treasurer, won two major contracts in 2023 through his finance firm Fenchurch Advisory, worth £1.5 million and £175,000 respectively, to advise the Post Office. These are all the examples from which we must differentiate ourselves.
Another Tory donor, Simon Blagden, was part of the Fujitsu leadership team at the time when postal workers were being wrongly convicted of false accounting and fraud by the Post Office because of its faulty software. Blagden was made chair of Building Digital UK, the Government agency responsible for delivering faster broadband in 2022, three years after his former company's software was found to have been at fault in what became the Horizon scandal. Since 2005, Blagden and companies he is closely associated with have donated £376,000 to the same party. During the COVID pandemic, Meller Designs Ltd, headed by Tory donor David Meller, who has donated more than £300,000 to the Conservative Party since 2009, was awarded—[Interruption.] What's this got to do—? I am saying why we need to differentiate ourselves from this. I will take the intervention, I will.
Gant a hanner o filltiroedd o'r fan hon, mae palas ger afon Tafwys lle nad yw'r drewdod yn dod o'r dŵr budr yn unig. Yn San Steffan, mae'r pydredd wedi treiddio i'r waliau, gan lenwi'r lle â diwylliant llwgr a madreddog. Nid ydym am i’n Senedd gael ei difwyno â sgandalau fel y rheini sy’n gyffredin yn San Steffan. Holl bwynt datganoli yw y gallwn ac y dylem wneud pethau’n wahanol yng Nghymru, y gallwn ac y dylem ddisgwyl gwell ar gyfer democratiaeth Cymru. Dylai mwy na thraffordd wahanu’r Senedd hon oddi wrth y palas pydredig hwnnw, man yr amlenni brown, arian am anrhydeddau, lobïwyr anghyfreithlon, man lle sefydlodd y Llywodraeth lwybr llwgr, yng nghanol argyfwng iechyd cyhoeddus, i bwysigion allu gwneud eu ffrindiau cyfoethog yn gyfoethocach, man lle gellir prynu polisi a gwerthu dylanwad i'r cynigydd uchaf, man—yng ngeiriau un o gyn-Weinidogion y Cabinet—sy'n wag o uniondeb.
Ni ddylem geisio dilyn eu hesiampl, oherwydd gadewch inni atgoffa ein hunain o'r diwylliant y mae'n rhaid inni wahanu ein hunain oddi wrtho. Rhoddodd Frank Hester o leiaf £10 miliwn i’r Blaid Geidwadol yn ystod y flwyddyn ddiwethaf. Mae ei gwmni technoleg gofal iechyd TPP wedi cael mwy na £400 miliwn gan y GIG a chyrff eraill y Llywodraeth ers 2016. Mae wedi elwa o £135 miliwn o gontractau gyda'r Adran Iechyd a Gofal Cymdeithasol mewn llai na phedair blynedd. Ym mis Mawrth eleni, cafodd yr Heddlu Metropolitanaidd eu hysbysu gan gyn-Aelod o feinciau blaen Llafur, Diane Abbott, ynghylch sylwadau roedd Hester wedi’u gwneud am Abbott, ei bod yn gwneud iddo gasáu pob menyw ddu. Enillodd Malik Karim, sydd wedi rhoi £1.6 miliwn i’r Ceidwadwyr ers 2014, ac sy’n gyn-drysorydd y blaid, ddau gontract mawr gwerth £1.5 miliwn a £175,000 drwy ei gwmni cyllid Fenchurch Advisory yn 2023 i gynghori Swyddfa’r Post. Mae'r rhain oll yn enghreifftiau y mae'n rhaid inni wahanu ein hunain oddi wrthynt.
Roedd rhoddwr Torïaidd arall, Simon Blagden, yn rhan o dîm arwain Fujitsu ar yr adeg pan oedd gweithwyr post yn cael eu dyfarnu'n euog ar gam o gyfrifo ffug a thwyll gan Swyddfa'r Post oherwydd eu meddalwedd diffygiol. Cafodd Blagden ei wneud yn gadeirydd Building Digital UK, asiantaeth y Llywodraeth sy’n gyfrifol am ddarparu band eang cyflymach yn 2022, dair blynedd ar ôl y canfod mai meddalwedd ei hen gwmni a oedd ar fai yn yr hyn a drodd yn sgandal Horizon. Ers 2005, mae Blagden a chwmnïau y mae ganddo gysylltiad agos â nhw wedi rhoi £376,000 i'r un blaid. Yn ystod pandemig COVID, cafodd Meller Designs Ltd dan arweiniad y cyfrannwr Torïaidd David Meller, sydd wedi cyfrannu dros £300,000 i'r Blaid Geidwadol ers 2009—[Torri ar draws.] Beth sydd gan hyn i'w wneud—? Rwy’n nodi pam fod angen inni wahanu ein hunain oddi wrth hyn. Fe dderbyniaf yr ymyriad, gwnaf.
This whole debate just shows—. You used the word 'pantomime' yesterday, and I'm really—. Oh, no, it was Heledd, actually. This debate is probably one of the worst debates I've ever sat through. When the First Minister decides to not even be here, that is an insult to this Chamber and the people of Wales. So, do you not—? Be honest with me now. How can anybody actually defend the indefensible in this Chamber, in this institution—
Mae’r ddadl hon i gyd yn dangos—. Fe ddefnyddioch chi'r gair 'pantomeim' ddoe, ac rwy'n—. O, na, Heledd a wnaeth hynny, mewn gwirionedd. Mae’n debyg mai’r ddadl hon yw un o’r dadleuon gwaethaf imi eistedd drwyddynt erioed. Pan fo'r Prif Weinidog yn penderfynu peidio â bod yma hyd yn oed, mae hynny’n sarhad ar y Siambr hon ac ar bobl Cymru. Felly, onid ydych—? Dywedwch y gwir wrthyf nawr. Sut y gall unrhyw un amddiffyn yr anamddiffynadwy yn y Siambr hon, yn y sefydliad hwn—
Janet, I am in no way trying to defend that.
Janet, nid wyf yn ceisio amddiffyn hynny mewn unrhyw ffordd.
—in this Senedd. It's nothing to do with the UK Parliament or Government, this. This is this Senedd, yes or no?
—yn y Senedd hon. Nid yw hyn yn ddim i'w wneud â Senedd neu Lywodraeth y DU. Mae hyn yn ymwneud â'r Senedd hon, ydy neu nac ydy?
Janet, I would not defend what you're discussing here, but I'm saying why this Senedd should be different, and we should be different from what's happening in Westminster, because the list—. I won't go on with those examples, but I could go on and on and on. Many of them were the result of the so-called COVID VIP lane, which gave those privileged donors access to key contracts. The public paid over the odds for those goods and services; they were all too often defective or ineffective. The UK Labour Party is not without fault either. Shadow Chancellor Rachel Reeves received a donation from prominent climate sceptic Lord Donoughue in the days before her party in Westminster dropped its £28 billion green energy spending commitment.
Llywydd, this is precisely the kind of rot we should turn our backs on, not embrace. The kind of politics we should offer in Wales should be different, better, because this Senedd should be better than that. This Senedd must be better. We cannot allow our politics to follow the same path as Westminster; that way, ruin lies.
Janet, ni fyddwn yn amddiffyn yr hyn rydych chi'n ei drafod yma, ond rwy'n nodi pam y dylai'r Senedd hon fod yn wahanol, a dylem fod yn wahanol i'r hyn sy'n digwydd yn San Steffan, gan fod y rhestr—. Nid wyf am barhau â’r enghreifftiau, ond gallwn fynd ymlaen ac ymlaen ac ymlaen. Roedd llawer ohonynt yn ganlyniad i'r llwybr i bwysigion, fel y'i gelwir, ar gyfer contractau COVID, a roddodd fynediad at gontractau allweddol i'r rhoddwyr breintiedig hynny. Talodd y cyhoedd grocbris am y nwyddau a'r gwasanaethau hynny; yn rhy aml, roeddent yn ddiffygiol neu'n aneffeithiol. Nid yw Plaid Lafur y DU yn ddi-fai ychwaith. Derbyniodd Canghellor yr wrthblaid, Rachel Reeves, rodd gan yr Arglwydd Donoughue, amheuwr hinsawdd amlwg, ddyddiau yn unig cyn i’w phlaid yn San Steffan roi'r gorau i'w hymrwymiad i wario £28 biliwn ar ynni gwyrdd.
Lywydd, dyma'r union fath o bydredd y dylem droi ein cefnau arno, nid ei gofleidio. Dylai’r math o wleidyddiaeth y dylem ei chynnig yng Nghymru fod yn wahanol, yn well, gan y dylai’r Senedd hon fod yn well na hynny. Mae'n rhaid i'r Senedd hon fod yn well. Ni allwn ganiatáu i’n gwleidyddiaeth ddilyn yr un llwybr â San Steffan; ni ddaw unrhyw ddaioni o hynny.
If I may, I'd like to focus my contribution on the importance of considering the unintended consequences of motions when they come to the floor of this Senedd. As we've heard already from many contributions, all parties of this Chamber have received donations far bigger than the particular donation in question this afternoon. In this debate, I think we have to consider what the consequences would be for donations provided by our trade union colleagues in particular, and, Presiding Officer, I'm proud to put on record my declaration of interest as a member of Unite the Union and Community union. Those are individual donations provided on behalf of thousands of workers across Wales on a democratic basis, and those donations are already subject to strict regulation. So, I do share the concerns of the trade unions, of the ones I've been in conversations with, when considering how proposals like the ones mentioned in this afternoon's motion from Plaid Cymru would work in practice.
As has been said already, and as I've said, all parties have had donations and received far larger single donations, which would not be captured by the cap proposed by the motion from Plaid Cymru, so we must consider this, as well, when voting on the motion this afternoon. Presiding Officer, we've heard lots of discussion around today, and it's an important discussion to have, no doubt, but I am disappointed in some Members who do seek to attack the integrity of the First Minister based on insinuation. Like many others in this Chamber, the First Minister has a proven record when it comes to fighting for social justice and fighting for workers' rights, and the governance of political donations is a subject that should be designed in a thoughtful and serious manner. It's not simply for political attacks in the Chamber by some. I say this as someone who likes political attacks as much as the next person in this Chamber.
I find myself reflecting throughout this debate on the contribution Adam Price made, a valued contribution to the debate, as it often is from Adam. Adam said in his contribution that he's seeking to find a solution to the issues around donations. I understand the premise of what Adam is trying to do; I don't think this motion does find the solution that you're looking for. That's my opinion, it's the opinion of many trade union colleagues that I have spoken to, and it's those unintended consequences that we have to look at. I will give way, because I did mention the Member.
Os caf, hoffwn ganolbwyntio yn fy nghyfraniad ar bwysigrwydd ystyried canlyniadau anfwriadol cynigion pan gânt eu cyflwyno yn y Senedd hon. Fel y clywsom eisoes mewn llawer o gyfraniadau, mae holl bleidiau’r Siambr hon wedi cael rhoddion llawer mwy na’r rhodd benodol sydd dan sylw y prynhawn yma. Yn y ddadl hon, credaf fod yn rhaid inni ystyried beth fyddai’r canlyniadau i roddion a ddarperir gan ein hundebau llafur yn benodol, a Lywydd, rwy’n falch o gofnodi fy natganiad o fuddiant fel aelod o Undeb Unite ac Undeb Community. Rhoddion unigol yw’r rheini a ddarperir ar ran miloedd o weithwyr ledled Cymru ar sail ddemocrataidd, ac mae’r rhoddion hynny eisoes yn destun rheoleiddio llym. Felly, rwy’n rhannu pryderon yr undebau llafur, y rhai y siaradais â nhw, wrth ystyried sut y byddai cynigion fel y rhai a grybwyllwyd yn y cynnig y prynhawn yma gan Blaid Cymru yn gweithio’n ymarferol.
Fel y dywedwyd eisoes, ac fel rwyf i wedi'i ddweud, mae pob plaid wedi cael rhoddion ac wedi derbyn rhoddion unigol llawer mwy, na fyddent wedi eu cynnwys o dan y cap a gynigir yn y cynnig gan Blaid Cymru, felly mae'n rhaid inni ystyried hyn hefyd wrth bleidleisio ar y cynnig y prynhawn yma. Lywydd, rydym wedi clywed llawer o drafod heddiw, ac mae'n drafodaeth bwysig i'w chael, heb os, ond rwy'n siomedig gyda rhai Aelodau sy'n ceisio ymosod ar uniondeb y Prif Weinidog ar sail ensyniadau. Fel llawer o rai eraill yn y Siambr hon, mae gan y Prif Weinidog hanes blaenorol o ymladd dros gyfiawnder cymdeithasol ac ymladd dros hawliau gweithwyr, ac mae llywodraethu rhoddion gwleidyddol yn bwnc y dylid ei gynllunio mewn modd meddylgar a difrifol, nid drwy ymosodiadau gwleidyddol gan rai yn y Siambr. Dywedaf hyn fel rhywun sy’n hoffi ymosodiadau gwleidyddol lawn cymaint ag unrhyw un arall yn y Siambr hon.
Rwyf wedi bod yn myfyrio drwy gydol y ddadl hon ar y cyfraniad a wnaeth Adam Price, cyfraniad gwerthfawr i’r ddadl, fel y cawn yn aml gan Adam. Dywedodd Adam yn ei gyfraniad ei fod yn ceisio dod o hyd i ateb i'r materion sy'n gysylltiedig â rhoddion. Rwy'n deall rhagosodiad yr hyn y mae Adam yn ceisio ei wneud; ni chredaf fod y cynnig hwn yn dod o hyd i'r ateb rydych chi'n chwilio amdano. Dyna fy marn i, dyna farn llawer o'r aelodau o undebau llafur y siaradais â nhw, ac mae'n rhaid inni edrych ar y canlyniadau anfwriadol hynny. Rwyf am ildio, gan imi enwi'r Aelod.
Let's be clear, in terms of the motion, we're not having that wider debate, which I understand, at Westminster, led the Labour Party to oppose a cap on individual donations for the reasons that he's outlined. What we're talking about here is donations to individual Members, yes? Not to political parties. Would he accept that there is a distinction there that would still allow the kind of trade union contributions to political parties that he's referring to, but would introduce a cap on individual donations to individual Members, to avoid the kind of problems that we're talking about?
Gadewch inni fod yn glir, o ran y cynnig, nid ydym yn cael y ddadl ehangach honno, y deallaf iddi arwain y Blaid Lafur i wrthwynebu cap ar roddion unigol yn San Steffan am y rhesymau a amlinellwyd ganddo. Yr hyn y soniwn amdano yma yw rhoddion i Aelodau unigol, onid e? Nid i bleidiau gwleidyddol. A fyddai’n derbyn bod gwahaniaeth yno a fyddai’n dal i ganiatáu’r math o gyfraniadau y cyfeiria atynt gan undebau llafur i bleidiau gwleidyddol, ond a fyddai’n cyflwyno cap ar roddion unigol i Aelodau unigol, er mwyn osgoi’r math o broblemau rydym yn sôn amdanynt?
I do understand where the Member is going with the argument. What I would say to the argument is that I don't think that distinction has been definitive enough for the trade union colleagues that I have spoken to about this debate. I don't think the motion finds the solution that you're looking for, and I can understand why, perhaps, you might be looking for it. But it doesn't find that solution there. The conversation needs to be had at a different level and with more involved. So, I won't be supporting the motion in front of us today. I think it's important to distinguish and reflect on the facts in a serious conversation, in a serious and forceful manner, rather than political attacks from some—not all, but some—today and in the past. And I hope we can reflect on that, Llywydd. Diolch.
Rwy’n deall i ble y mae’r Aelod yn mynd gyda’r ddadl. Yr hyn y byddwn yn ei ddweud am y ddadl yw nad wyf yn credu bod y gwahaniaeth hwnnw wedi bod yn ddigon pendant i’r aelodau o'r undebau llafur y siaradais â nhw am y ddadl hon. Ni chredaf fod y cynnig yn dod o hyd i'r ateb rydych chi'n chwilio amdano, a gallaf ddeall pam, efallai, y gallech fod yn chwilio amdano. Ond nid yw'n dod o hyd i'r ateb hwnnw yno. Mae angen cynnal y sgwrs ar lefel wahanol a chyda mwy yn cymryd rhan. Felly, ni fyddaf yn cefnogi’r cynnig sydd ger ein bron heddiw. Credaf ei bod yn bwysig gwahaniaethu a myfyrio ar y ffeithiau mewn sgwrs ddifrifol, mewn modd difrifol a grymus, yn hytrach nag ymosodiadau gwleidyddol gan rai—nid pawb, ond rhai—heddiw ac yn y gorffennol. Ac rwy'n gobeithio y gallwn fyfyrio ar hynny, Lywydd. Diolch.
I originally wasn't going to speak, but I was strangely inspired to speak by the leader of Plaid Cymru's opening remarks, when he said that the average house price in Wales is £225,000. When you represent a constituency like the Vale of Clwyd, where I've got constituents who are living in the Westminster hotel in Rhyl; the average salary in Denbighshire is roughly about £20,000 per year, which is significantly lower than the national average minimum wage; I've got constituents still living with their parents at 30, who can't get on the housing ladder; I've got the worst-performing hospital in the worst-performing health board in Wales; and I represent similar communities to what some of the Labour Party Members do, and what message does that give out to people who are low-income families, who are working hard to keep a roof over their heads, if they have the luxury to do so? They have high waiting times, they struggle to see a doctor, a dentist, and all of that money that the leader of Plaid Cymru mentioned could remedy some of those problems. It would certainly buy a house in the Vale of Clwyd; it would get you a pretty good house, to be honest, £200,000. It would get you pretty far in Rhyl, actually, because a three-bed semi is, roughly, I don't know, £150,000 to £175,000 in some areas, so you'd probably get a bit of change out of that as well. So, where does it lead in terms of socialism, as well, which we talk about? Because we hear all the time from Labour Party Members, talking about poverty, which is great, which is fine—I'm not demeaning that at all—but what does it mean in terms of socialism? What's the Labour Party built on? What's socialism built on? It's built on fairness, it's built on equality, it's built on inclusion—
Nid oeddwn wedi bwriadu siarad, ond fe'm hysbrydolwyd, yn rhyfedd ddigon, gan sylwadau agoriadol arweinydd Plaid Cymru, pan ddywedodd mai pris tŷ cyfartalog yng Nghymru yw £225,000. Pan fyddwch yn cynrychioli etholaeth fel Dyffryn Clwyd, lle mae gennyf etholwyr sy’n byw yng ngwesty Westminster yn y Rhyl; mae'r cyflog cyfartalog yn sir Ddinbych oddeutu £20,000 y flwyddyn, sy'n sylweddol is na'r isafswm cyflog cyfartalog cenedlaethol; mae gennyf etholwyr sy'n dal i fyw gyda'u rhieni yn 30 oed, sy'n methu cael troed ar yr ysgol dai; mae gennyf yr ysbyty sy'n perfformio waethaf yn y bwrdd iechyd sy'n perfformio waethaf yng Nghymru; ac rwy’n cynrychioli cymunedau tebyg i rai o Aelodau’r Blaid Lafur, a pha neges y mae hynny’n ei rhoi i deuluoedd incwm isel, sy’n gweithio’n galed i gadw to uwch eu pennau, os ydynt yn ddigon lwcus i allu gwneud hynny? Mae ganddynt amseroedd aros hirfaith, maent yn cael trafferth gweld meddyg, deintydd, a gallai’r holl arian y soniodd arweinydd Plaid Cymru amdano unioni rhai o’r problemau hynny. Byddai’n sicr yn prynu tŷ yn Nyffryn Clwyd; byddai'n cael tŷ eithaf da i chi a dweud y gwir, £200,000. Byddai'n mynd â chi'n eithaf pell yn y Rhyl mewn gwirionedd, gan fod tŷ pâr tair ystafell wely yn costio oddeutu £150,000 i £175,000 mewn rhai ardaloedd, felly mae'n debyg y byddech yn cael ychydig o newid o hynny hefyd. Felly, i ble y mae'n arwain o ran sosialaeth, hefyd, sy'n rhywbeth rydym yn sôn amdano? Oherwydd rydym yn clywed drwy’r amser gan Aelodau’r Blaid Lafur, yn sôn am dlodi, sy’n wych, sy’n iawn—nid wyf yn diraddio hynny o gwbl—ond beth mae hynny’n ei olygu o ran sosialaeth? Ar beth mae'r Blaid Lafur wedi'i hadeiladu? Ar beth mae sosialaeth wedi'i hadeiladu? Mae wedi'i hadeiladu ar degwch, mae wedi'i hadeiladu ar gydraddoldeb, mae wedi'i hadeiladu ar gynhwysiant—
It was.
Roedd yn arfer bod.
Well, it was, Janet, yes. It certainly was. But what message does that even give out to your voters that £200,000 can buy you a seat at the Cabinet table and the most influential, the most powerful job in the land? [Interruption.] Yes, certainly, yes.
Wel, roedd yn arfer bod, Janet, oedd. Roedd yn sicr yn arfer bod. Ond pa neges y mae hynny'n ei rhoi i'ch pleidleiswyr, y gall £200,000 brynu sedd i chi wrth fwrdd y Cabinet a'r swydd fwyaf dylanwadol, fwyaf pwerus yn y wlad? [Torri ar draws.] Ie, iawn, yn sicr.
I mean, you're absolutely right in your criticism, but imagine what you could buy with Tory money. [Laughter.]
Hynny yw, rydych chi'n llygad eich lle yn eich beirniadaeth, ond dychmygwch beth y gallech ei brynu gydag arian Torïaidd. [Chwerthin.]
What sort of figures would you be talking about? Well, again, it's the—[Interruption.]
Pa fath o ffigurau rydych chi'n sôn amdanynt? Wel, unwaith eto, dyma'r—[Torri ar draws.]
Allow the Member to carry on. I think he's being disturbed by his own Members at this point. Carry on, Gareth.
Gadewch i’r Aelod barhau. Rwy'n credu bod ei Aelodau ei hun yn tarfu arno ar y pwynt hwn. Parhewch, Gareth.
Thank you, Llywydd. Again, it's the Party of Wales who are talking about—
Diolch, Lywydd. Unwaith eto, Plaid Cymru sy'n sôn am—
Would you take an intervention?
A wnewch chi dderbyn ymyriad?
Yes, I will. Yes.
Gwnaf, fe wnaf. Iawn.
I think the question here, Gareth, is obviously on the money, as you've mentioned, but it's also on the judgment, I think, of the First Minister in this case. The First Minister, earlier today, I read in the Daily Express, said that he was aware that there was a conviction at the time he took that donation. So, his judgment is called into question and it is that same judgment that is being used every day in his role as First Minister. Is that not what we should be worried about, as well?
Credaf fod y cwestiwn yma, Gareth, yn ymwneud â'r arian, fel rydych chi wedi sôn, ond credaf ei fod hefyd yn ymwneud â doethineb y Prif Weinidog yn yr achos hwn. Dywedodd y Prif Weinidog, yn gynharach heddiw, darllenais yn y Daily Express, ei fod yn ymwybodol o'r euogfarn pan dderbyniodd y rhodd honno. Felly, rhaid cwestiynu ei ddoethineb, a’r un doethineb sy’n cael ei ddefnyddio bob dydd yn ei rôl fel Prif Weinidog. Onid oherwydd hynny y dylem boeni?
Absolutely. And it brings an integrity issue. It's a good point you raised, Tom. But I'll just go back to that principle of socialism that we hear about all too often from Labour Members and the Government: what does that give to equality, what does that give to fairness, that £200,000 can buy you a seat at the Cabinet table and the most powerful job in the land? It doesn't send a good message out to the people of Wales, and my constituents, who genuinely struggle. My inbox is full of it; you can come and see it anytime you like. What message does that give out to the people of Wales, that £200,000 can get you the most powerful job in the land?
Yn sicr. Ac mae'n codi mater uniondeb. Fe wnaethoch bwynt da, Tom. Ond af yn ôl at egwyddor sosialaeth y clywn amdani mor aml gan Aelodau Llafur a'r Llywodraeth: beth mae hynny'n ei olygu i gydraddoldeb, beth mae hynny'n ei olygu i degwch, fod £200,000 yn gallu prynu sedd i chi wrth fwrdd y Cabinet a'r swydd fwyaf pwerus yn y wlad? Nid yw'n anfon neges dda at bobl Cymru, a fy etholwyr, sy'n ei chael hi'n wirioneddol anodd. Mae fy mewnflwch yn llawn o hynny; gallwch ddod i'w weld unrhyw bryd y dymunwch. Pa neges y mae'n ei hanfon at bobl Cymru, y gall £200,000 sicrhau'r swydd fwyaf pwerus yn y wlad i chi?
Y Trefnydd nawr i gyfrannu i'r ddadl. Jane Hutt.
The Trefnydd to make a contribution. Jane Hutt.
Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. Mewn ymateb i'r ddadl yma, Llywydd, mae wedi bod yn dda trafod safonau heddiw. Mae craffu mewn ffordd agored ac adeiladol yn cael ei groesawu.
Thank you very much, Llywydd. In response to this debate, Llywydd, it has been good to talk about standards today. Scrutiny in an open and constructive way is welcomed.
So, Llywydd, as the First Minister has repeatedly set out, all of the relevant rules have been complied with, and that's been acknowledged again this afternoon. I think, for the record, it's important to again state that the Welsh Government's propriety and ethics team has considered and responded to questions raised by Members, and are clear that no wrongdoing has taken place. And, as with all Ministers with registered interests, the First Minister will recuse himself from any involvement that presents any conflict of interest in the normal way.
Llywydd, the protections that are provided within our existing system are important. They're proactively upheld by Ministers, and that's been recognised in this debate.
Felly, Lywydd, fel y mae’r Prif Weinidog wedi’i nodi dro ar ôl tro, cydymffurfiwyd â’r holl reolau perthnasol, ac mae hynny wedi’i gydnabod eto y prynhawn yma. Hoffwn gofnodi ei bod yn bwysig datgan eto fod tîm priodoldeb a moeseg Llywodraeth Cymru wedi ystyried ac ymateb i gwestiynau a godwyd gan Aelodau, ac wedi nodi'n glir na wnaed unrhyw beth camweddus. Ac yn yr un modd â phob Gweinidog sydd â buddiannau cofrestredig, bydd y Prif Weinidog yn ymatal rhag unrhyw weithgarwch sy'n peri unrhyw wrthdaro buddiannau yn y ffordd arferol.
Lywydd, mae'r amddiffyniadau a ddarperir o fewn ein system bresennol yn bwysig. Cânt eu cadarnhau’n rhagweithiol gan Weinidogion, ac mae hynny wedi’i gydnabod yn y ddadl hon.
Will you give way?
A wnewch chi ildio?
Mabon.
Mabon.
You say that there was no wrongdoing, and I accept that according to the rules there was no wrongdoing. Your colleagues have said that they wouldn't have accepted the money; Jeremy Miles, for instance, has said that. Would you have accepted the money?
Rydych chi'n dweud na wnaed unrhyw beth camweddus, ac rwy'n derbyn, yn ôl y rheolau, na wnaed unrhyw beth camweddus. Mae eich cyd-Aelodau wedi dweud na fyddent wedi derbyn yr arian; mae Jeremy Miles, er enghraifft, wedi dweud hynny. A fyddech chi wedi derbyn yr arian?
I think in terms of responding to this debate, Mabon, which I'm doing as Trefnydd, I was going to actually say, and I think you would welcome this, Mabon, that I'm very glad that this debate has, actually, constructively debated your motion. That's what you would expect and that's what Adam Price has asked us to do: that we, today, constructively—and that's what I'm doing in response to your intervention as well. This debate, I think, has been robust and it's been respectful. We'll see what—. You know, people who are watching us are recognising that we have to be respectful and robust in debating the Plaid motion.
I think it has also been really helpful, some of the engagement from Members. I'd like to thank Jack Sargeant, for example, for his contribution, because he acknowledges the important role—the integral role—played by trade unions in the Welsh Labour movement. Of course, can we just reflect on that for a moment, colleagues and Members? The Labour Party was, of course, founded by the trade union movement. It's a source of pride that the party is supported by the collective contribution of shop workers, steelworkers, council staff and health workers, among others.
Trade unions are highly regulated, but there are huge constraints placed upon them by your Government—anti-worker legislation as well, by your Government. But, also, those constraints are on issues like not just the internal operation of unions, but relating to political funding. I think, Jack, it's important that you recognised, and you stated the fact, that you've had feedback from trade unions that they provide funding based on the collective contribution of thousands of workers in the form of donations to Members, not always provided to an individual Senedd Member, but they're often delivered in that way and there's no reason why that should not be the case.
But it's the rules providing for transparency that are important on that point. Llywydd, any reform—and, again, it goes back to respectfully debating this motion this afternoon—any reform involving a cap should be considered very carefully, and it should be thought through by all parties today. I welcome the fact that this was acknowledged by the leader of the opposition today. So, you've opened a debate, and it's been respectfully discussed this afternoon. As we set out in our amendment to the motion, we believe that the current rules for transparency, for declaring and, where necessary, for notifying donations function very well in ensuring that there's openness and opportunity for scrutiny in this area. Our view is that existing requirements are sufficient to be binding upon all parties in the Senedd, and that above those it's the responsibility of each party to decide on the arrangements for its own business.
So, I will refer to the review that the First Minister has established, as leader of Welsh Labour. In fact, after winning the election to become leader of Welsh Labour, the First Minister established that review into the internal leadership contest arrangements. It was agreed by the Welsh executive committee, democratically elected by the party, and it will be chaired by our former First Minister Carwyn Jones. Can I just say that that review will include campaign finances, the length of contest, among other issues? I think it is right that parties—and this is learning for us all—work to create the best possible internal arrangements for leadership of their parties, and that's the work that my party, our party, is taking forward in that deliberative and democratic way.
In terms of responding to the debate today, we believe that this review is the right way forward, and it's been agreed with the democratic structures—
O ran ymateb i'r ddadl hon, Mabon, yr wyf yn ei wneud fel Trefnydd, roeddwn yn mynd i ddweud, a chredaf y byddech yn croesawu hyn, Mabon, fy mod yn falch iawn fod y ddadl hon wedi trafod eich cynnig yn adeiladol. Dyna fyddech yn ei ddisgwyl, a dyna mae Adam Price wedi gofyn i ni ei wneud: ein bod ni, heddiw, yn adeiladol—a dyna rwy'n ei wneud mewn ymateb i'ch ymyriad chi hefyd. Mae’r ddadl hon wedi bod yn gadarn ac yn barchus. Cawn weld beth—. Hynny yw, mae'r bobl sy’n ein gwylio yn cydnabod bod yn rhaid inni fod yn barchus a chadarn wrth drafod cynnig Plaid Cymru.
Credaf fod peth o’r ymgysylltu gan Aelodau wedi bod yn ddefnyddiol iawn hefyd. Hoffwn ddiolch i Jack Sargeant, er enghraifft, am ei gyfraniad ef, gan ei fod cydnabod y rhan bwysig—y rhan annatod—y mae undebau llafur yn ei chwarae ym mudiad Llafur Cymru. A gawn ni fyfyrio ar hynny am eiliad, gyd-Aelodau? Sefydlwyd y Blaid Lafur, wrth gwrs, gan y mudiad undebau llafur. Mae'n destun balchder fod y blaid yn cael ei chefnogi gan gyfraniad cyfunol gweithwyr siop, gweithwyr dur, staff cyngor a gweithwyr iechyd, ymhlith eraill.
Mae undebau llafur yn cael eu rheoleiddio'n llym, ond mae eich Llywodraeth chi'n gosod cyfyngiadau enfawr arnynt—deddfwriaeth wrth-weithwyr hefyd, gan eich Llywodraeth chi. Ond hefyd, mae’r cyfyngiadau hynny nid yn unig ar faterion fel gweithrediad mewnol undebau, ond yn ymwneud â chyllid gwleidyddol. Rwy'n credu, Jack, ei bod hi'n bwysig ichi gydnabod, ac fe wnaethoch ddatgan y ffaith, eich bod wedi cael adborth gan undebau llafur eu bod yn darparu cyllid yn seiliedig ar gyfraniad cyfunol miloedd o weithwyr ar ffurf rhoddion i Aelodau, nad ydynt bob amser yn cael eu darparu i Aelod unigol o'r Senedd, ond maent yn aml yn cael eu cyflwyno yn y ffordd honno, ac nid oes unrhyw reswm pam na ddylai hynny ddigwydd.
Ond y rheolau sy'n darparu ar gyfer tryloywder sy'n bwysig ar y pwynt hwnnw. Lywydd, dylai unrhyw ddiwygio—ac unwaith eto, mae hyn yn ymwneud â thrafod y cynnig hwn yn barchus y prynhawn yma—dylai unrhyw ddiwygio sy'n ymwneud â chap gael ei ystyried yn ofalus iawn, a dylai pob plaid feddwl yn iawn amdano heddiw. Rwy'n croesawu'r ffaith i hyn gael ei gydnabod gan arweinydd yr wrthblaid heddiw. Felly, rydych wedi agor dadl, ac mae wedi cael ei thrafod yn barchus y prynhawn yma. Fel y nodwyd gennym yn ein gwelliant i’r cynnig, credwn fod y rheolau presennol ar gyfer tryloywder, ar gyfer datgan, a lle bo angen, ar gyfer hysbysu am roddion yn gweithio’n dda iawn wrth sicrhau gonestrwydd a chyfle i graffu yn y maes hwn. Ein barn ni yw bod y gofynion presennol yn ddigon i fod yn rhwymol ar bob plaid yn y Senedd, ac uwchlaw’r rheini, mai cyfrifoldeb pob plaid yw penderfynu ar y trefniadau ar gyfer ei busnes ei hun.
Felly, cyfeiriaf at yr adolygiad y mae’r Prif Weinidog wedi’i sefydlu, fel arweinydd Llafur Cymru. Mewn gwirionedd, ar ôl ennill yr etholiad i ddod yn arweinydd Llafur Cymru, sefydlodd y Prif Weinidog yr adolygiad o drefniadau gornestau arweinyddiaeth mewnol. Cytunwyd arno gan bwyllgor gweithredol Cymru, a etholwyd yn ddemocrataidd gan y blaid, a bydd yn cael ei gadeirio gan ein cyn-Brif Weinidog, Carwyn Jones. A gaf i ddweud y bydd yr adolygiad hwnnw'n cynnwys cyllid ymgyrchoedd a hyd yr ornest, ymhlith materion eraill? Credaf ei bod yn iawn fod pleidiau—ac mae hyn yn wers i bob un ohonom—yn gweithio i greu’r trefniadau mewnol gorau posibl ar gyfer arweinyddiaeth eu pleidiau, a dyna’r gwaith y mae fy mhlaid i, ein plaid ni, yn ei wneud yn y ffordd gydgynghorol a democrataidd honno.
O ran ymateb i’r ddadl heddiw, credwn mai’r adolygiad hwn yw’r ffordd gywir ymlaen, ac mae wedi’i gytuno gyda strwythurau democrataidd—
Will you take an intervention?
A wnewch chi dderbyn ymyriad?
—of the Labour Party.
—y Blaid Lafur.
I'm grateful to you for that. I'm grateful to the First Minister for establishing this review—I think it is important. Carwyn Jones, of course, who's leading it, has already said he's going to investigate a cap on donations, and I think we look forward to seeing where he reaches with that. Do you also agree with me—because I think the points that Lee Waters made in his speech were very important—that we should also introduce the test of a fit-and-proper person from whom donations may be accepted?
Rwy'n ddiolchgar i chi am hynny. Rwy'n ddiolchgar i'r Prif Weinidog am sefydlu'r adolygiad hwn—rwy'n credu ei fod yn bwysig. Mae Carwyn Jones sy'n ei arwain eisoes wedi dweud ei fod yn mynd i ymchwilio i gap ar roddion, ac rwy'n meddwl ein bod yn edrych ymlaen at weld lle mae'n cyrraedd gyda hynny. A ydych chi hefyd yn cytuno—oherwydd rwy'n credu bod y pwyntiau a wnaeth Lee Waters yn ei araith yn bwysig iawn—y dylem hefyd gyflwyno prawf person addas a phriodol y gellir derbyn rhoddion ganddynt?
I'm grateful to Alun Davies for making that intervention today, because I think this is precisely why this debate can be respectful and can also feed back into the discussions and the review that will take place. As I said—and it goes back to what Andrew R.T. Davies said, actually—this is about thinking through; it's about thought-through reforms that I think we all need to take into account.
I would say, finally, Llywydd, that I want to, again, endorse the work of our cross-party standards committee, and I want to welcome and thank the Chair of the standards committee today, Vikki Howells. Let's look at this standards committee. We talked this afternoon about the fact that we want to move on—we want to move on—and I think the standards committee will help—[Interruption.] Let's just recall what Vikki Howells said today. She recognised that the work of the standards committee is a vital part of the operation of upholding the high standards of behaviour by our Senedd Members in taking action where there are suggestions that those standards have not been complied with. I have sympathy with Heledd Fychan's point, after having a really robust and positive discussion in the Senedd Reform Bill Committee this morning, about how we can ensure that we move forward with our Senedd reform, as we will do, I'm sure, next week, to also ensure that we reach out to the diverse people of Wales who we want to come and join us, and that they can trust in and respect the way that we conduct ourselves. That's crucial for the standards committee in terms of its work.
So, just very finally, Llywydd, I do want to thank all Members who've contributed to the debate this afternoon. It is about moving on. It is about recognising that we can debate these issues with respect, and also with respect that our First Minister is here today leading this Government—[Interruption.]—going to Mumbai next week on behalf of the thousands of people in our steel-working industry who expect that from a First Minister for a Welsh Labour Government.
Rwy'n ddiolchgar i Alun Davies am wneud yr ymyriad hwnnw heddiw, oherwydd credaf mai dyna'n union pam y gall y ddadl hon fod yn barchus a gall hefyd gyfrannu at y trafodaethau a'r adolygiad a fydd yn cael ei gynnal. Fel y dywedais—ac mae'n mynd yn ôl i'r hyn a ddywedodd Andrew R.T. Davies, mewn gwirionedd—mae hyn yn ymwneud ag ystyried pethau'n fanwl; mae'n ymwneud â diwygiadau wedi'u hystyried yn fanwl y credaf fod angen i bawb ohonom eu hystyried.
Yn olaf, Lywydd, hoffwn ddweud fy mod i eisiau cymeradwyo gwaith ein pwyllgor safonau trawsbleidiol, ac rwyf eisiau croesawu a diolch i Gadeirydd y pwyllgor safonau heddiw, Vikki Howells. Gadewch inni edrych ar y pwyllgor safonau hwn. Fe wnaethom siarad y prynhawn yma am y ffaith ein bod ni eisiau symud ymlaen—rydym eisiau symud ymlaen—ac rwy'n meddwl y bydd y pwyllgor safonau yn helpu—[Torri ar draws.] Gadewch inni gofio'r hyn a ddywedodd Vikki Howells heddiw. Cydnabu fod gwaith y pwyllgor safonau yn rhan hanfodol o'r gwaith o gynnal safonau ymddygiad uchel ein Haelodau o'r Senedd drwy weithredu pan geir awgrymiadau na chydymffurfiwyd â'r safonau hynny. Rwy'n cydymdeimlo â phwynt Heledd Fychan, ar ôl cael trafodaeth gadarn a chadarnhaol iawn ym Mhwyllgor Biliau Diwygio'r Senedd y bore yma, ynglŷn â sut y gallwn sicrhau ein bod yn symud ymlaen gyda diwygio'r Senedd, fel y byddwn yn ei wneud yr wythnos nesaf, rwy'n siŵr, i sicrhau hefyd ein bod yn estyn allan at bobl amrywiol Cymru yr ydym am iddynt ddod i ymuno â ni, a'u bod nhw'n gallu parchu ac ymddiried yn y ffordd yr ydym yn ymddwyn. Mae hynny'n hanfodol i waith y pwyllgor safonau.
Felly, yn olaf, Lywydd, hoffwn ddiolch i'r holl Aelodau sydd wedi cyfrannu at y ddadl y prynhawn yma. Mae'n ymwneud â symud ymlaen. Mae'n ymwneud â chydnabod y gallwn drafod y materion hyn gyda pharch, a hefyd gyda pharch fod ein Prif Weinidog yma heddiw yn arwain y Llywodraeth hon—[Torri ar draws.]—gan fynd i Mumbai yr wythnos nesaf ar ran y miloedd o bobl yn ein diwydiant cynhyrchu dur sy'n disgwyl hynny gan Brif Weinidog ar Lywodraeth Lafur Cymru.
I can't hear the Trefnydd. Please quieten down.
Ni allaf glywed y Trefnydd. Tawelwch, os gwelwch yn dda.
And I think the Senedd, by hopefully next week, will also move to Stage 4—symud ymlaen—with Senedd reform, to make sure that we can extend the democratic mandate effectively of this Senedd, and devolution 25 years on. There's a lot we can celebrate next week.
Ac rwy'n credu y bydd y Senedd, erbyn yr wythnos nesaf, gobeithio, hefyd yn symud ymlaen at Gyfnod 4 o ddiwygio'r Senedd, i wneud yn siŵr y gallwn ymestyn mandad democrataidd y Senedd hon yn effeithiol, a datganoli 25 mlynedd yn ddiweddarach. Mae llawer y gallwn ei ddathlu yr wythnos nesaf.
Rhun ap Iorwerth i ymateb i'r ddadl.
Rhun ap Iorwerth to reply to the debate.
Diolch yn fawr iawn, Llywydd. I think it is important that, in his presence now—he did arrive towards the closing stages of these two debates—I do express to the First Minister the real disappointment that he wasn't here to hear and, indeed, to respond to these debates today. I will, of course, welcome an intervention, should he wish to make a statement at any point during my comments this afternoon.
We have just heard more appeals, as we have over recent days and weeks, to move on. I’m afraid we can’t simply move on as long as so many questions remain unanswered, and the fact that the First Minister himself doesn’t think that there are unanswered questions that remain doesn’t satisfy me, and I don’t believe it satisfies the vast majority of people in Wales.
I’d like to contrast, if I could, the contributions of two Members on the Labour benches. Firstly the Member for Caerphilly. We were talking, weren’t we, yesterday, in the discussion around the reform Bill, about the issue of misleading people in politics. One has to ask whether, in defending the First Minister, Hefin David hadn’t realised that today’s motion was about capping donations to individuals and not political parties, or whether he was conflating the two on purpose. He even referred to one donor to Plaid Cymru being found guilty of an issue around employees’ rights three years after that donation was made, when the First Minister received funds from one company, Veezu, that’s been the subject of challenges around employment rights in the past year. So, I think, be very, very careful when making those kinds of allegations.
Diolch yn fawr iawn, Lywydd. Rwy'n credu ei bod yn bwysig, yn ei bresenoldeb nawr—fe wnaeth gyrraedd tuag at gamau olaf y ddwy ddadl hon—fy mod yn mynegi wrth y Prif Weinidog y siom go iawn nad oedd yma i glywed, ac yn wir i ymateb i'r dadleuon hyn heddiw. Rwy'n croesawu ymyriad wrth gwrs, os yw'n dymuno gwneud datganiad ar unrhyw adeg yn ystod fy sylwadau y prynhawn yma.
Rydym newydd glywed mwy o alwadau, fel y gwnaethom dros y dyddiau a'r wythnosau diwethaf, i symud ymlaen. Rwy'n ofni na allwn symud ymlaen cyn belled â bod cymaint o gwestiynau'n parhau heb eu hateb, ac nid yw'r ffaith nad yw'r Prif Weinidog ei hun yn credu bod cwestiynau ar ôl heb eu hateb yn fy modloni, ac nid wyf yn credu ei fod yn bodloni'r mwyafrif helaeth o bobl Cymru.
Os caf, hoffwn gyferbynnu cyfraniadau dau Aelod ar feinciau'r Blaid Lafur. Yn gyntaf, yr Aelod dros Gaerffili. Roeddem yn siarad ddoe, onid oeddem, yn y drafodaeth ar y Bil diwygio, am gamarwain pobl mewn gwleidyddiaeth. Rhaid gofyn a oedd Hefin David, wrth amddiffyn y Prif Weinidog, wedi sylweddoli bod y cynnig heddiw yn ymwneud â chapio rhoddion i unigolion ac nid pleidiau gwleidyddol, neu a oedd yn cyfuno'r ddau beth yn fwriadol. Cyfeiriodd hyd yn oed at un rhoddwr i Blaid Cymru a gafwyd yn euog o fater yn ymwneud â hawliau gweithwyr dair blynedd ar ôl i'r rhodd honno gael ei gwneud, pan dderbyniodd y Prif Weinidog arian gan un cwmni, Veezu, sydd wedi bod yn destun heriau'n ymwneud â hawliau cyflogaeth yn ystod y flwyddyn ddiwethaf. Felly, byddwch yn ofalus iawn wrth wneud y mathau hynny o honiadau.
Will you take an intervention?
A wnewch chi dderbyn ymyriad?
Now, or after I've said my next few sentences? And he then went on to make insinuations around a payment to my constituency party—not to me, to my constituency party—in 2013. Some donations, Hefin David, can certainly not be deemed to be made in order to try to gain political influence. The late Mr Parry bequeathed that sum in his will, and we are not talking here about stopping payments being made to political parties, including yours, in wills. We're talking about payments to individuals, not political parties, and I'll remind you that, in the last year, your party received £9 million, I believe, in payments, to put it in context.
Nawr, neu ar ôl i mi ddweud fy ychydig frawddegau nesaf? Ac aeth ymlaen wedyn i wneud ensyniadau ynghylch taliad i fy mhlaid yn yr etholaeth—nid i mi, i fy mhlaid yn yr etholaeth—yn 2013. Yn sicr, ni ellir ystyried bod rhai rhoddion, Hefin David, wedi eu gwneud er mwyn ceisio ennill dylanwad gwleidyddol. Gadawodd y diweddar Mr Parry y swm hwnnw yn ei ewyllys, ac nid ydym yn siarad yma am atal taliadau rhag cael eu gwneud i bleidiau gwleidyddol, gan gynnwys eich un chi, mewn ewyllysiau. Rydym yn sôn am daliadau i unigolion, nid pleidiau gwleidyddol, ac rwy'n eich atgoffa, yn ystod y flwyddyn ddiwethaf, fod eich plaid wedi derbyn £9 miliwn, rwy'n credu, mewn taliadau, i'w roi yn ei gyd-destun.
I think I should say I wasn't criticising you. I was just pointing out the fact that there is a degree of sanctimony and hypocrisy in your party. You received, or your constituency party received—which is what I said—£141,584.92 from a single donor. There's nothing wrong with that. I imagine it was used in the campaign to re-elect you in 2016, so please don't misconstrue what I'm saying. I'm actually supporting you.
Rwy'n credu y dylwn ddweud nad oeddwn yn eich beirniadu. Roeddwn ond yn tynnu sylw at y ffaith bod rhywfaint o ffugsancteiddrwydd a rhagrith yn eich plaid. Fe dderbynioch chi, neu eich plaid yn yr etholaeth—sef yr hyn a ddywedais—£141,584.92 gan un rhoddwr. Nid oes dim o'i le ar hynny. Rwy'n dychmygu iddo gael ei ddefnyddio yn yr ymgyrch i'ch ailethol yn 2016, felly peidiwch â chamddehongli'r hyn rwy'n ei ddweud. Rwy'n eich cefnogi mewn gwirionedd.
I didn't hear that very well, but I don't think it matters. I’ll just leave it to you to reflect on whether there is a fair comparison to be made between a sum—[Interruption.]—bequeathed to a political party in a will—
Ni chlywais hynny'n dda, ond nid wyf yn meddwl bod hynny'n bwysig. Gadawaf i chi fyfyrio a oes cymhariaeth deg i'w gwneud rhwng swm—[Torri ar draws.]—wedi ei adael i blaid wleidyddol mewn ewyllys—
Allow Rhun ap Iorwerth to finish the point he's trying to clarify. Thank you, Rhun ap Iorwerth. Diolch yn fawr.
Gadewch i Rhun ap Iorwerth orffen y pwynt y mae'n ceisio ei egluro. Diolch yn fawr, Rhun ap Iorwerth. Diolch yn fawr.
I'll leave it to the Member to judge whether it’s a fair comparison between a sum of money left in a will to a political party by somebody who believes in democracy and a payment of £200,000 to a candidate for the leadership of the Labour Party in Wales by a company that had been found guilty of environmental offences, who were looking to the Government to make a decision around a solar farm, et cetera, et cetera. I absolutely accept what the First Minister says in terms of having registered everything properly, and that he cannot use his influence, but let’s remember what that ministerial code says about whether a reasonable judgment could be made that there could be a conflict between a decision made in a personal capacity and one’s work. I believe the threshold has been found, and I’ve said so on a number of occasions.
The comments made by the Member of Caerphilly reflect poorly, I’m afraid, on him today. I contrast his comments with the comments made—the very honest comments made—by the Member for Llanelli. Lee Waters said in very succinct terms, talking about the low reputation of politics as it is, that it shouldn’t be—ever, should it?—about whether we can get away with it; it’s whether it’s right. And I think in the context of these payments to the leader of the Labour Party in Wales and the First Minister, people have come to a conclusion about whether it is right or not. He said, Lee Waters, that he was unable to support the motion today because he feared that it prejudged the outcomes of an internal review by the Labour Party. I said in my comments initially that I regret the fact that Labour, in deleting all of our motion, didn't take the opportunity to say that there was a welcoming of that kind of approach that could lead to an investigation of how such a system could be put in place, and I think that reflects badly also on the Government today.
Gadawaf i'r Aelod farnu a yw'n gymhariaeth deg rhwng swm o arian a adawyd mewn ewyllys i blaid wleidyddol gan rywun sy'n credu mewn democratiaeth a thaliad o £200,000 i ymgeisydd am arweinyddiaeth y Blaid Lafur yng Nghymru gan gwmni a gafwyd yn euog o droseddau amgylcheddol, a oedd yn disgwyl i'r Llywodraeth wneud penderfyniad ynghylch fferm solar, ac ati, ac ati. Rwy'n derbyn yn llwyr yr hyn y mae'r Prif Weinidog yn ei ddweud o ran bod wedi cofrestru popeth yn iawn, ac na all ddefnyddio ei ddylanwad, ond gadewch inni gofio beth mae cod y Gweinidogion yn ei ddweud ynglŷn ag a ellid gwneud dyfarniad rhesymol y gallai fod gwrthdaro rhwng penderfyniad a wneir ar sail bersonol ac yn rhinwedd ei waith. Rwy'n credu bod y trothwy wedi'i ganfod, ac rwyf wedi dweud hynny ar sawl achlysur.
Mae arnaf ofn fod y sylwadau a wnaed gan Aelod Caerffili yn adlewyrchu'n wael arno heddiw. Rwy'n cyferbynnu ei sylwadau â'r sylwadau a wnaed—y sylwadau gonest iawn a wnaed—gan yr Aelod dros Lanelli. Dywedodd Lee Waters yn gryno iawn, wrth sôn am yr enw drwg sydd i wleidyddiaeth fel y mae, na ddylai byth ymwneud ag i ba raddau y gallwn osgoi beirniadaeth; mae'n ymwneud ag a yw'n iawn. Ac yng nghyd-destun y taliadau hyn i arweinydd y Blaid Lafur yng Nghymru a'r Prif Weinidog, credaf fod pobl wedi dod i gasgliad ynglŷn ag a yw'n iawn ai peidio. Dywedodd Lee Waters nad oedd yn gallu cefnogi'r cynnig heddiw oherwydd ei fod yn ofni ei fod yn rhagfarnu canlyniadau adolygiad mewnol gan y Blaid Lafur. Dywedais yn fy sylwadau i ddechrau fy mod yn difaru'r ffaith na fanteisiodd Llafur ar y cyfle, wrth ddileu ein cynnig yn ei gyfanrwydd, i ddweud bod yna groeso i ymagwedd o'r fath a allai arwain at ymchwiliad i sut y gellid rhoi system o'r fath ar waith, ac rwy'n credu bod hynny'n adlewyrchu'n wael hefyd ar y Llywodraeth heddiw.
Yn syml iawn, dydy'r penderfyniad i dderbyn rhoddion o'r maint yma, heb sôn am ffynhonnell yr arian, dydy'r ffaith bod o'n cael ei ganiatáu o dan y diffyg rheolau presennol ddim yn eistedd yn gyfforddus efo pobl Cymru. Mae o'n creu argraff, hyd yn oed os ydy pob rheol yn cael ei pharchu, fod dylanwad yn gallu cael ei brynu.
Simply, the decision to accept donations of this scale, never mind the source of those funds, the fact that it is allowed under the absence of rules that we currently have doesn't sit comfortably with the people of Wales. It gives an impression, even if all rules are respected, that influence can be bought.
I invite the Conservatives to reconsider their decision to abstain. On this, no decision is being made on what the cap should be, on what model should be brought in for that cap. I'd ask them to consider whether abstaining reflects poorly on them, given the controversies around the Conservative Party and political donations. So, I appeal to you to support the motion.
This episode reflects terribly, I'm afraid, on the First Minister himself and his judgment, but we can take a stand here today to defend the integrity of our democracy as a whole.
Rwy'n gwahodd y Ceidwadwyr i ailystyried eu penderfyniad i ymatal. Ar hyn, nid oes penderfyniad yn cael ei wneud ynglŷn â beth ddylai'r cap fod, pa fodel y dylid ei gyflwyno ar gyfer y cap hwnnw. Hoffwn ofyn iddynt ystyried a yw ymatal yn adlewyrchu'n wael arnynt hwy, o ystyried y dadleuon ynghylch y Blaid Geidwadol a rhoddion gwleidyddol. Felly, rwy'n apelio arnoch i gefnogi'r cynnig.
Mae arnaf ofn fod y bennod hon yn adlewyrchu'n ofnadwy ar y Prif Weinidog ei hun a'i ddoethineb, ond gallwn wneud safiad yma heddiw i amddiffyn uniondeb ein democratiaeth yn ei chyfanrwydd.
Y cwestiwn yw: a ddylid derbyn y cynnig heb ei ddiwygio? A oes unrhyw Aelod yn gwrthwynebu? [Gwrthwynebiad.] Oes, mae yna wrthwynebiad ac, felly, fe wnawn ni ohirio'r bleidlais tan y cyfnod pleidleisio.
The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes, there is objection and, therefore, we will defer voting until voting time.
Gohiriwyd y pleidleisio tan y cyfnod pleidleisio.
Voting deferred until voting time.
Rŷm ni'n cyrraedd y cyfnod pleidleisio, ac oni bai bod tri Aelod yn dymuno i fi ganu'r gloch, byddwn yn symud yn syth i'r bleidlais gyntaf. Mae'r gyfres gyntaf o bleidleisiau ar eitem 6, dadl y Ceidwadwyr ar adolygiad Cass, a dwi'n galw am bleidlais ar y cynnig yn gyntaf heb ei ddiwygio, yn enw Darren Millar. Agor y bleidlais. Cau'r bleidlais. O blaid 14, neb yn ymatal, 38 yn erbyn. Felly, mae'r cynnig wedi ei wrthod.
That brings us to voting time, and unless three Members wish for the bell to be rung, I will proceed directly to the first vote. The first series of votes is on item 6, the Welsh Conservatives debate on the Cass review, and I call for a vote on the motion without amendment, tabled in the name of Darren Millar. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 14, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore, the motion is not agreed.
Eitem 6. Dadl y Ceidwadwyr Cymreig - Adolygiad Cass. Cynnig heb ei ddiwygio: O blaid: 14, Yn erbyn: 38, Ymatal: 0
Gwrthodwyd y cynnig
Item 6. Welsh Conservatives Debate - The Cass review. Motion without amendment: For: 14, Against: 38, Abstain: 0
Motion has been rejected
Gwelliant 1 fydd nesaf. Pleidlais, felly, ar welliant 1 yn enw Jane Hutt. Agor y bleidlais. Cau'r bleidlais. O blaid 38, neb yn ymatal, 14 yn erbyn. Felly, mae'r gwelliant yna wedi ei gymeradwyo.
Amendment 1 will be next. A vote on amendment 1 tabled in the name of Jane Hutt. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 38, no abstentions, 14 against. Therefore, that amendment is agreed.
Eitem 6. Dadl y Ceidwadwyr Cymreig - Adolygiad Cass. Gwelliant 1, cyflwynwyd yn enw Jane Hutt: O blaid: 38, Yn erbyn: 14, Ymatal: 0
Derbyniwyd y gwelliant
Item 6. Welsh Conservatives Debate - The Cass review. Amendment 1, tabled in the name of Jane Hutt: For: 38, Against: 14, Abstain: 0
Amendment has been agreed
Gwelliant 2 sydd nesaf, yn enw Heledd Fychan. Agor y bleidlais. Cau'r bleidlais. O blaid 11, neb yn ymatal, 41 yn erbyn. Mae gwelliant 2 wedi ei wrthod.
Amendment 2 is next, in the name of Heledd Fychan. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 11, no abstentions, 41 against. Amendment 2 is not agreed.
Eitem 6. Dadl y Ceidwadwyr Cymreig - Adolygiad Cass. Gwelliant 2, cyflwynwyd yn enw Heledd Fychan: O blaid: 11, Yn erbyn: 41, Ymatal: 0
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant
Item 6. Welsh Conservatives Debate - The Cass review. Amendment 2, tabled in the name of Heledd Fychan: For: 11, Against: 41, Abstain: 0
Amendment has been rejected
Yn olaf, felly, ar yr eitem yma, y cynnig wedi ei ddiwygio gan welliant 1.
Finally, the motion as amended by amendment 1.
Cynnig NDM8563 fel y'i diwygiwyd:
Cynnig bod y Senedd:
1. Yn nodi cyhoeddi adolygiad Cass.
2. Yn nodi bod y GIG yng Nghymru yn comisiynu gwasanaethau hunaniaeth rhywedd i blant a phobl ifanc 17 oed ac iau gan y GIG yn Lloegr.
3. Yn nodi bod y GIG yn Lloegr wedi dod i'r casgliad nad oes digon o dystiolaeth i gefnogi diogelwch nac effeithiolrwydd clinigol hormonau atal y glasoed ar gyfer trin dysfforia rhywedd mewn plant a phobl ifanc ar hyn o bryd.
4. Yn nodi y bydd Llywodraeth Cymru yn parhau i ddatblygu'r canllawiau trawsrywedd ar gyfer ysgolion, gan ystyried adolygiad Cass a barn rhanddeiliaid.
Motion NDM8563 as amended:
To propose that the Senedd:
1. Notes the publication of the Cass review.
2. Notes that NHS Wales commissions gender identity services for children and young people 17 and under from NHS England.
3. Notes that NHS England has concluded there is not enough evidence to support the safety or clinical effectiveness of puberty suppressing hormones for the treatment of gender dysphoria in children and young people at this time.
4. Notes the Welsh Government will continue to develop the transgender guidance for schools taking account of the Cass review and stakeholder views.
Agor y bleidlais. Cau'r bleidlais. O blaid 52, neb yn ymatal, neb yn erbyn. Felly, mae'r cynnig wedi'i ddiwygio wedi ei dderbyn.
Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 52, no abstentions, nobody against. Therefore, the motion as amended is agreed.
Eitem 6. Dadl y Ceidwadwyr Cymreig - Adolygiad Cass. Cynnig wedi'i ddiwygio: O blaid: 52, Yn erbyn: 0, Ymatal: 0
Derbyniwyd y cynnig fel y'i diwygiwyd
Item 6. Welsh Conservatives Debate - The Cass review. Motion as amended: For: 52, Against: 0, Abstain: 0
Motion as amended has been agreed
Eitem 7 fydd y pleidleisiau nesaf. Dadl y Ceidwadwyr yw hon ar roddion ymgyrch arweinyddiaeth a chod y Gweinidogion. Dwi'n galw am bleidlais ar y cynnig heb ei ddiwygio, yn enw Darren Millar. Agor y bleidlais. Cau'r bleidlais. O blaid 25, neb yn ymatal, 27 yn erbyn. Felly, mae'r cynnig yna wedi ei wrthod.
Item 7 will be the next series of votes, on the Welsh Conservatives debate on the leadership campaign donations and the ministerial code. I call for a vote on the motion without amendment, tabled in the name of Darren Millar. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 25, no abstentions, 27 against. Therefore, the motion is not agreed.
Eitem 7. Dadl y Ceidwadwyr Cymreig - Rhoddion ymgyrch arweinyddiaeth a chod y gweinidogion. Cynnig heb ei ddiwygio: O blaid: 25, Yn erbyn: 27, Ymatal: 0
Gwrthodwyd y cynnig
Item 7. Welsh Conservatives Debate - Leadership campaign donations and the ministerial code. Motion without amendment: For: 25, Against: 27, Abstain: 0
Motion has been rejected
Gwelliant 1 sydd nesaf. Pleidlais ar welliant 1, yn enw Jane Hutt. Agor y bleidlais. Cau'r bleidlais. O blaid 27, neb yn ymatal, 25 yn erbyn. Mae gwelliant 1 wedi ei dderbyn.
Amendment 1 is next. A vote on amendment 1, tabled in the name of Jane Hutt. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 27, no abstentions, 25 against. Amendment 1 is agreed.
Eitem 7. Dadl y Ceidwadwyr Cymreig - Rhoddion ymgyrch arweinyddiaeth a chod y gweinidogion. Gwelliant 1, cyflwynwyd yn enw Jane Hutt: O blaid: 27, Yn erbyn: 25, Ymatal: 0
Derbyniwyd y gwelliant
Item 7. Welsh Conservatives Debate - Leadership campaign donations and the ministerial code. Amendment 1, tabled in the name of Jane Hutt: For: 27, Against: 25, Abstain: 0
Amendment has been agreed
Gwelliant 2, yn enw Heledd Fychan. Agor y bleidlais. Cau'r bleidlais. O blaid 25, neb yn ymatal, 27 yn erbyn. Mae'r gwelliant yna wedi'i wrthod.
Amendment 2, tabled in the name of Heledd Fychan. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 25, no abstentions, 27 against. That amendment is not agreed.
Eitem 7. Dadl y Ceidwadwyr Cymreig - Rhoddion ymgyrch arweinyddiaeth a chod y gweinidogion. Gwelliant 2, cyflwynwyd yn enw Heledd Fychan: O blaid: 25, Yn erbyn: 27, Ymatal: 0
Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant
Item 7. Welsh Conservatives Debate - Leadership campaign donations and the ministerial code. Amendment 2, tabled in the name of Heledd Fychan: For: 25, Against: 27, Abstain: 0
Amendment has been rejected
Mae'r bleidlais olaf ar y eitem yma ar y cynnig wedi'i ddiwygio gan welliant 1.
The final vote under this item is a vote on the motion as amended.
Cynnig NDM8562 fel y'i diwygiwyd:
Cynnig bod y Senedd:
1. Yn cydnabod bod Llywodraeth Cymru yn cymryd Cod y Gweinidogion, a'r cyfrifoldebau y mae'n eu gosod ar Weinidogion Cymru, o ddifrif.
2. Yn nodi bod y penderfyniadau a wneir gan Fanc Datblygu Cymru ynghylch benthyca a buddsoddi yn cael eu gwneud yn gwbl annibynnol ar Lywodraeth Cymru.
Motion NDM8562 as amended:
To propose that the Senedd:
1. Recognises that the Welsh Government takes seriously the Ministerial Code and the responsibilities it places upon Welsh Ministers.
2. Notes that loan and investment decisions taken by the Development Bank of Wales are done so entirely independently of the Welsh Government.
Agor y bleidlais. Cau'r bleidlais. O blaid 28, neb yn ymatal, 24 yn erbyn, ac felly mae'r cynnig yna wedi'i dderbyn.
Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 28, no abstentions, 24 against, therefore the motion as amended is agreed.
Eitem 7. Dadl y Ceidwadwyr Cymreig - Rhoddion ymgyrch arweinyddiaeth a chod y gweinidogion. Cynnig wedi'i ddiwygio: O blaid: 28, Yn erbyn: 24, Ymatal: 0
Derbyniwyd y cynnig fel y'i diwygiwyd
Item 7. Welsh Conservatives Debate - Leadership campaign donations and the ministerial code. Motion as amended: For: 28, Against: 24, Abstain: 0
Motion as amended has been agreed
Mae'r pleidleisiau nesaf ar eitem 8, dadl Plaid Cymru ar uchafswm ar roddion gwleidyddol. Dwi'n galw am bleidlais yn gyntaf ar y cynnig heb ei ddiwygio, yn enw Heledd Fychan. Agor y bleidlais. Cau'r bleidlais. O blaid 11, 14 yn ymatal, 27 yn erbyn, felly mae'r cynnig wedi ei wrthod.
The next set of votes is the Plaid Cymru debate on a cap on political donations. I call for a vote, first, on the motion without amendment, tabled in the name of Heledd Fychan. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 11, 14 abstentions, 27 against. Therefore, the motion is not agreed.
Eitem 8. Dadl Plaid Cymru - Uchafswm ar roddion gwleidyddol. Cynnig heb ei ddiwygio: O blaid: 11, Yn erbyn: 27, Ymatal: 14
Gwrthodwyd y cynnig
Item 8. Plaid Cymru Debate - Cap on political donations. Motion without amendment: For: 11, Against: 27, Abstain: 14
Motion has been rejected
Mae'r bleidlais nesaf ar welliant 1, a gyflwynwyd yn enw Jane Hutt. Agor y bleidlais. Cau'r bleidlais. O blaid 27, 24 yn ymatal, 1 yn erbyn, felly mae'r gwelliant yna wedi ei gymeradwyo.
The next vote is on amendment 1, tabled in the name of Jane Hutt. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 27, 24 abstentions, 1 against, therefore the amendment is agreed.
Eitem 8. Dadl Plaid Cymru - Uchafswm ar roddion gwleidyddol. Gwelliant 1, cyflwynwyd yn enw Jane Hutt: O blaid: 27, Yn erbyn: 1, Ymatal: 24
Derbyniwyd y gwelliant
Item 8. Plaid Cymru Debate - Cap on political donations. Amendment 1, tabled in the name of Jane Hutt: For: 27, Against: 1, Abstain: 24
Amendment has been agreed
Mae'r bleidlais olaf ar y cynnig wedi ei ddiwygio.
The final vote is on the motion as amended.
Cynnig NDM8561 fel y'i diwygiwyd:
Cynnig bod y Senedd:
1. Yn nodi bod gan Aelodau o'r Senedd gyfrifoldeb i ddatgan buddiannau ar Gofrestr Buddiannau'r Aelodau a nodi datganiadau o'r fath lle bo'n berthnasol mewn cyfraniadau ysgrifenedig a llafar i Fusnes y Senedd.
2. Yn nodi ei bod yn ofynnol i Aelodau hefyd wirio bod rhoddion o £500 neu fwy wedi’u gwneud gan roddwyr a ganiateir, yn ogystal â rhoi gwybod i’r Comisiwn Etholiadol am fanylion llawn y rhoddion hynny sydd dros £2230.
3. Yn cydnabod bod pleidiau gwleidyddol, a'u cyrff llywodraethu cyfansoddol, yn gyfrifol am bennu a monitro cydymffurfedd â rheolau sy'n mynd y tu hwnt i'r gofynion cyfreithiol presennol.
4. Yn galw ar y Pwyllgor Safonau Ymddygiad i barhau i sicrhau bod yr holl Aelodau yn bodloni'r safonau ymddygiad uchaf.
Motion NDM8561 as amended:
To propose that the Senedd:
1. Notes that Members of the Senedd have a responsibility to declare interests on the Members’ Register of Interests and to identify such declarations where relevant in written and oral contributions to Senedd Business.
2. Notes that members are also required to check that donations of £500 or more are from permissible donors and report full details of those over £2230 to the Electoral Commission.
3. Recognises that political parties, and their constituent governing bodies, are responsible for setting and monitoring compliance with rules which go beyond existing legal requirements.
4. Calls on the Standards of Conduct Committee to continue to ensure that the highest standards of conduct are observed by all Members.
Agor y bleidlais. Cau'r bleidlais. O blaid 27, 25 yn ymatal, neb yn erbyn, ac felly mae'r cynnig wedi ei ddiwygio wedi ei dderbyn.
Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 27, 25 abstentions, none against. Therefore, the motion as amended is agreed.
Eitem 8. Dadl Plaid Cymru - Uchafswm ar roddion gwleidyddol. Cynnig wedi'i ddiwygio: O blaid: 27, Yn erbyn: 0, Ymatal: 25
Derbyniwyd y cynnig fel y'i diwygiwyd
Item 8. Plaid Cymru Debate - Cap on political donations. Motion as amended: For: 27, Against: 0, Abstain: 25
Motion as amended has been agreed
Dyna ddiwedd ar y pleidleisio am heddiw, ond nid dyna ddiwedd ar ein trafodion ni. Fe fydd y ddadl fer nesaf.
That bring us to the end of voting time today, but that's not the end of our proceedings. There will be a short debate held next.
Symudwn ni i'r ddadl fer nawr. Rwy'n gofyn i'r Aelodau sy'n gadael i adael yn dawel. Peredur Owen Griffiths sy'n cyflwyno y ddadl fer ar Gaza, ymateb Cymreig.
We will move to the short debate now. Members leaving, if you could do so quietly. Peredur Owen Griffiths will present the short debates on Gaza, a Welsh response.
Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. When my name came out of the ballot for this short debate, it's always a privilege, because you get up to 15 minutes to talk about something that's important to you. I'm allowed to give up some of my time to other Members to speak, for up to a minute each, and tonight I've been inundated with requests. But I've gone on a first come, first served basis and agreed to give a minute each to Rhun ap Iorwerth, Sioned Williams, Mabon ap Gwynfor, Jenny Rathbone and John Griffiths. The Cabinet Secretary will then respond to the debate on behalf of the Government, and there's no vote on short debates. So, as I say, it's a great opportunity to speak on a subject that is important to me. I knew I wanted to talk about Gaza, and, in particular, to note our Welsh response.
Our response was almost immediate, with statements made by all party leaders in this Chamber on 10 October, condemning the Hamas attack on 7 October and calling for the release of the hostages. Plaid Cymru went further and called for a ceasefire back then. It's hard to believe that it's almost six months since 8 November, when we then held that historic vote in the Senedd to call for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza. Thanks to support from Jane Dodds and some Labour backbenchers, the Senedd vote in favour of the immediate ceasefire motion tabled by Plaid Cymru passed. Plaid Cymru received some criticism from some quarters for this action, with some people saying that we should concentrate on matters in Wales. There are two things to say about that. Firstly, Plaid Cymru have a proud tradition of standing up on the world stage and raising our voices when we need to. Secondly, there are Welsh citizens who have been directly affected by events in Gaza. Earlier this month, we heard from Gillian and Pete Brisley from Bridgend who lost their daughter and granddaughters in the attack by Hamas on 7 October, and I have attended prayers next to a man in Dar-ul-Isra mosque who has lost over 20 members of his immediate family in Israel's war on Gaza.
Diolch yn fawr, Lywydd. Pan ddaeth fy enw i fyny ar gyfer y ddadl fer hon, mae bob amser yn fraint, oherwydd rydych chi'n cael hyd at 15 munud i siarad am rywbeth sy'n bwysig i chi. Rwy'n cael rhoi peth o fy amser i Aelodau eraill siarad, am hyd at funud yr un, a heno mae ceisiadau niferus wedi dod. Ond rwyf wedi mynd ar sail y cyntaf i'r felin, a chytunais i roi munud yr un i Rhun ap Iorwerth, Sioned Williams, Mabon ap Gwynfor, Jenny Rathbone a John Griffiths. Bydd Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet yn ymateb i'r ddadl wedyn ar ran y Llywodraeth, ac nid oes pleidlais ar ddadleuon byr. Felly, fel y dywedais, mae'n gyfle gwych i siarad ar bwnc sy'n bwysig i mi. Roeddwn i'n gwybod fy mod eisiau siarad am Gaza, a nodi ein hymateb Cymreig yn arbennig.
Fe wnaethom ymateb bron ar unwaith, gyda datganiadau gan holl arweinwyr y pleidiau yn y Siambr hon ar 10 Hydref, yn condemnio ymosodiad Hamas ar 7 Hydref ac yn galw am ryddhau'r gwystlon. Aeth Plaid Cymru ymhellach a galw am gadoediad yn ôl bryd hynny. Mae'n anodd credu bod bron i chwe mis wedi mynd heibio ers 8 Tachwedd, pan gynhaliwyd y bleidlais hanesyddol honno yn y Senedd i alw am gadoediad ar unwaith yn Gaza. Diolch i gefnogaeth Jane Dodds a rhai o aelodau meinciau cefn Llafur, derbyniwyd pleidlais y Senedd o blaid y cynnig am gadoediad ar unwaith a gyflwynwyd gan Blaid Cymru. Cafodd Plaid Cymru ei beirniadu rywfaint gan rai am y weithred hon, gyda rhai pobl yn dweud y dylem ganolbwyntio ar faterion yng Nghymru. Mae dau beth i'w ddweud am hynny. Yn gyntaf, mae gan Blaid Cymru draddodiad balch o sefyll ar lwyfan y byd a chodi ein lleisiau pan fo angen. Yn ail, mae yna ddinasyddion o Gymru wedi cael eu heffeithio'n uniongyrchol gan ddigwyddiadau yn Gaza. Yn gynharach y mis hwn, clywsom gan Gillian a Pete Brisley o Ben-y-bont ar Ogwr a gollodd eu merch a'u hwyresau yn yr ymosodiad gan Hamas ar 7 Hydref, a mynychais weddïau gyda dyn ym mosg Dar-ul-Isra sydd wedi colli dros 20 aelod o'i deulu agos yn rhyfel Israel ar Gaza.
Daeth y Dirprwy Lywydd i’r Gadair.
The Deputy Presiding Officer took the Chair.
Our job in this place is to represent all people in Wales, and that is what Plaid Cymru is doing. While I'm proud that we played our part in condemning what was already a dire situation for the people of Gaza in early November, the bombing, the starvation and the killing has continued relentlessly. According to Al Jazeera, the death toll stands at 1,139 people in Israel and 34,979 Palestinians killed since 7 October. In reality, the death toll is likely to be much higher, as more and more bodies are pulled out of the rubble and the grim discovery of mass graves at two different burial sites outside Nasser and Al-Shifa hospitals, where 390 bodies were recovered. This is devastation and sorrow on an unimaginable scale. Quite frankly, it's hard to talk about, and it's hard to watch. But talk about it we must. We must bear witness. And many have felt called to action. I see some people in the gallery that have been doing that.
In Wales, the response from a large number of people to these horrors has been clear: 'Not in my name'. People have attended rallies and vigils, people have marched, people have fundraised for relief efforts, and people have boycotted firms with connections to the Israeli military. Just like the Senedd ceasefire motion, they send a clear message from the people of Wales that we do not support Israel's continuing military offensive against the civilians in Gaza. To stand by, watch, and do nothing is not an option when the consequences of Israel's incursion into Gaza are so grave. I've been on marches and rallies, and at fundraisers. I've witnessed the passion from people who just want better from this world. Has that passion and determination been matched by our Government? Sadly, it has not. I was surprised last week when the First Minister said to me that—and I quote—
'It's been the position of the Welsh Government for some time that there should be an immediate ceasefire.'
That was news to me. It was also news to my colleagues, and it was news to the anti-war campaigners I'm in touch with, because when the Plaid Cymru ceasefire motion was brought to the Senedd, all Government Ministers abstained. I'm still waiting for clarification from the First Minister on when that position changed, and how it was communicated. What is concerning is how nobody knew anything about it.
I received an e-mail from a member of the Wales Overseas Agencies Group that said that they had sent a letter to the former First Minister, Mark Drakeford, in February. The letter addressed the UK Government's decision to suspend funding to the United Nations Relief and Works Agency, which is still not yet reinstated. As WOAG are yet to receive a response to the letter, they did resend this to the new First Minister last week following his comments that the Welsh Government supports an immediate ceasefire. Maybe the Cabinet Secretary will clarify this in her response and encourage the First Minister to answer the letter.
When looking at a uniquely Welsh response to the situation in Gaza, I was drawn to the Interfaith Council for Wales website. On the website, since March this year, the Muslim Council of Wales issued, with the South Wales Jewish Representative Council, under the auspices of the Interfaith Council for Wales, a commitment to dialogue and a call for peace in the middle east. This simple act is unique in Britain and a testament to Wales's approach to interfaith relations. This is one of the reasons that I'm proud to be able to talk about a Welsh response—one not looking for division but to work together for shared understanding and a shared commitment to peace and humanity.
Dirprwy Lywydd and my fellow Members, I'm sure we can all commend this Welsh way of doing things. After more than six months since the launch of the Israeli offensive, sanctions are long overdue. Stopping armed shipments is long overdue. Divestment of firms and pension schemes fuelling or sustaining this conflict is long overdue. The whole region is on the brink of a war that is much bigger than what we are currently seeing. That has to be stopped before it goes any further. It is incumbent on the international community to reflect the views of the people they serve and say that enough is enough.
Wales can play its part in that effort. I'm calling on this Labour Government to be clear and determined in its opposition to the ongoing aggression in Gaza. That begins with a clear call for an immediate and permanent ceasefire, which will allow the enormous humanitarian operation to take place. This needs to happen for the sake of the people of Gaza, this needs to happen for the sake of the hostages that are still being held, and it needs to happen for the sake of peace and humanity. Diolch yn fawr.
Ein gwaith ni yn y lle hwn yw cynrychioli pawb yng Nghymru, a dyna mae Plaid Cymru yn ei wneud. Er fy mod yn falch ein bod wedi chwarae ein rhan yn condemnio'r hyn a oedd eisoes yn sefyllfa enbyd i bobl Gaza ddechrau mis Tachwedd, mae'r bomio, y newyn a'r lladd wedi parhau'n ddi-baid. Yn ôl Al Jazeera, mae 1,139 o bobl wedi marw yn Israel a 34,979 o Balesteiniaid wedi eu lladd ers 7 Hydref. Mewn gwirionedd, mae'r nifer a fu farw yn debygol o fod yn llawer uwch, wrth i fwy a mwy o gyrff gael eu tynnu allan o'r rwbel a darganfod beddau torfol mewn dau safle claddu gwahanol y tu allan i ysbytai Nasser ac Al-Shifa, lle daethpwyd o hyd i 390 o gyrff. Mae'n ddinistr a gofid ar raddfa annirnadwy. A dweud y gwir, mae'n anodd siarad amdano, ac mae'n anodd ei wylio. Ond mae'n rhaid siarad amdano. Mae'n rhaid inni dystio i'r hyn sy'n digwydd. Ac mae llawer wedi teimlo eu bod wedi cael eu galw i weithredu. Rwy'n gweld pobl yn yr oriel sydd wedi bod yn gwneud hynny.
Yng Nghymru, mae'r ymateb gan nifer fawr o bobl i'r erchyllterau hyn wedi bod yn glir: 'Nid yn fy enw i'. Mae pobl wedi mynychu ralïau a gwylnosau, mae pobl wedi gorymdeithio, mae pobl wedi codi arian ar gyfer ymdrechion cymorth, ac mae pobl wedi boicotio cwmnïau sydd â chysylltiadau â lluoedd arfog Israel. Yn union fel cynnig cadoediad y Senedd, maent yn anfon neges glir gan bobl Cymru nad ydym yn cefnogi ymosodiad milwrol parhaus Israel yn erbyn sifiliaid yn Gaza. Nid yw gwylio a gwneud dim yn opsiwn pan fydd canlyniadau cyrch Israel ar Gaza mor ddifrifol. Rwyf wedi bod ar orymdeithiau a ralïau, ac mewn digwyddiadau codi arian. Rwyf wedi gweld angerdd pobl sydd ond eisiau gwell o'r byd hwn. A yw ein Llywodraeth yn teimlo'r un angerdd a phenderfyniad? Yn anffodus, nid yw i'w weld yn gwneud hynny. Cefais fy synnu yr wythnos diwethaf pan ddywedodd y Prif Weinidog wrthyf
'Safbwynt Llywodraeth Cymru ers cryn amser yw y dylai fod cadoediad ar unwaith.'
Roedd hynny'n newyddion i mi. Roedd hefyd yn newyddion i fy nghyd-Aelodau, ac roedd yn newyddion i'r ymgyrchwyr gwrth-ryfel rwy'n cysylltu â nhw, oherwydd pan ddaeth cynnig cadoediad Plaid Cymru ger bron y Senedd, fe wnaeth holl Weinidogion y Llywodraeth ymatal. Rwy'n dal i aros am eglurhad gan y Prif Weinidog ynglŷn â pha bryd y newidiodd y safbwynt hwnnw, a sut y cafodd ei gyfathrebu. Mae'n peri pryder nad oedd neb yn gwybod dim am y peth.
Cefais e-bost gan aelod o Grŵp Asiantaethau Tramor Cymru a ddywedodd eu bod wedi anfon llythyr at y cyn-Brif Weinidog, Mark Drakeford, ym mis Chwefror. Roedd y llythyr yn nodi penderfyniad Llywodraeth y DU i atal cyllid i Asiantaeth Cymorth a Gwaith y Cenhedloedd Unedig, sy'n dal i fod heb ei adfer. Gan nad yw Grŵp Asiantaethau Tramor Cymru wedi cael ymateb i'r llythyr eto, fe wnaethant ei ailanfon at y Prif Weinidog newydd yr wythnos diwethaf yn dilyn ei sylwadau fod Llywodraeth Cymru yn cefnogi cadoediad ar unwaith. Efallai y bydd Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet yn egluro hyn yn ei hymateb ac yn annog y Prif Weinidog i ateb y llythyr.
Wrth edrych ar ymateb unigryw Gymreig i'r sefyllfa yn Gaza, cefais fy nenu at wefan Cyngor Rhyng-ffydd Cymru. Ar y wefan, ers mis Mawrth eleni, cyhoeddodd Cyngor Mwslimaidd Cymru, gyda Chyngor Cynrychioli Iddewon De Cymru, dan nawdd Cyngor Rhyng-ffydd Cymru, ymrwymiad i ddeialog a galwad am heddwch yn y dwyrain canol. Mae'r weithred syml hon yn unigryw ym Mhrydain ac yn dyst i agwedd Cymru tuag at gysylltiadau rhyng-ffydd. Dyma un o'r rhesymau pam rwy'n falch o allu siarad am ymateb Cymreig—un nad yw'n chwilio am raniadau ond yn hytrach, am gydweithio ar gyfer meithrin cyd-ddealltwriaeth ac ymrwymiad ar y cyd i heddwch a dynoliaeth.
Ddirprwy Lywydd a chyd-Aelodau, rwy'n siŵr y gallwn i gyd ganmol y ffordd Gymreig hon o wneud pethau. Ar ôl mwy na chwe mis ers dechrau ymosodiad Israel, mae'n hen bryd cael sancsiynau. Mae'n hen bryd atal anfon arfau. Mae'n hen bryd dadfuddsoddi o gwmnïau a chynlluniau pensiwn sy'n cynnal y gwrthdaro hwn. Mae'r rhanbarth cyfan ar drothwy rhyfel sy'n llawer mwy na'r hyn a welwn ar hyn o bryd. Rhaid rhoi diwedd arno cyn iddo fynd ymhellach. Mae'n ddyletswydd ar y gymuned ryngwladol i adlewyrchu barn y bobl y maent yn eu gwasanaethu a dweud digon yw digon.
Gall Cymru chwarae ei rhan yn yr ymdrech honno. Rwy'n galw ar y Llywodraeth Lafur hon i fod yn glir ac yn benderfynol yn ei gwrthwynebiad i'r ymosodiad parhaus yn Gaza. Mae hynny'n dechrau gyda galwad glir am gadoediad parhaol ar unwaith a fydd yn caniatáu i'r ymdrech ddyngarol enfawr ddigwydd. Mae angen i hyn ddigwydd er mwyn pobl Gaza, mae angen i hyn ddigwydd er mwyn y gwystlon sy'n dal i gael eu cadw'n gaeth, ac mae angen iddo ddigwydd yn enw heddwch a dynoliaeth. Diolch yn fawr.
Diolch, Peredur, am gyflwyno y ddadl yma heddiw ac am ganiatáu i fi gael gwneud cyfraniad byr hefyd. Y perygl bob amser ydy bod treigl amser yn gwneud i bobl golli ffocws, i ymgynefino efo rhywbeth sy'n digwydd draw fan acw, waeth pa mor erchyll ydy hynny.
Thank you, Peredur, for bringing forward this debate today and for allowing me to make a brief contribution. The danger always is that the passage of time makes people lose focus and get used to something that's happening over there, regardless of how terrible it is.
We cannot allow the world to forget the horrors of this war. We can't forget those killed and taken hostage on 7 October, and we demand their release. And we must never forget the tens of thousands killed and still being killed in Gaza, the hundreds of thousands of Palestinians facing absolute destitution, malnutrition and homelessness. We must re-emphasise our condemnation of those responsible, demand an end to the atrocities, a ceasefire, sanctions, a massive increase in humanitarian aid. I am proud of how so many people in Wales have responded. Our Senedd can and must continue to speak up as part of a global community taking a stand for tolerance and for peace.
Ni allwn adael i'r byd anghofio erchyllterau'r rhyfel hwn. Ni allwn anghofio'r rhai a laddwyd ac a gymerwyd yn wystlon ar 7 Hydref, ac rydym yn mynnu eu bod yn cael eu rhyddhau. Ac ni ddylem byth anghofio'r degau o filoedd a laddwyd ac sy'n dal i gael eu lladd yn Gaza, y cannoedd o filoedd o Balesteiniaid sy'n wynebu amddifadrwydd llwyr, diffyg maeth a digartrefedd. Rhaid inni ail-bwysleisio ein condemniad o'r rhai sy'n gyfrifol, mynnu diwedd ar yr erchyllterau, cadoediad, sancsiynau, cynnydd enfawr mewn cymorth dyngarol. Rwy'n falch fod cymaint o bobl yng Nghymru wedi ymateb. Fe all, ac mae'n rhaid i'n Senedd barhau i godi llais fel rhan o gymuned fyd-eang sy'n sefyll dros oddefgarwch a heddwch.
Humanity must prevail in Palestine and Israel. My constituents tell me that they want an immediate and permanent ceasefire, the release of hostages, proper levels of humanitarian aid, and the beginnings of a political solution that will last. António Guterres, the Secretary General of the United Nations has spoken very powerfully during this awful period of time. He has said, 'These are moments in history—do not be a bystander.' I'm very proud that people in Wales have marched, have gone to rallies, have protested—and I've been very privileged to be part of that—to make their voices heard for humanity and peace. I believe now and throughout this terrible crisis it has been so important that political representatives and political leaders at all levels have spoken out and made their views known—spoken in favour of that immediate and permanent ceasefire, those proper levels of humanitarian aid, the release of hostages and the beginning of that political solution. That's the Wales I want to be part of, Dirprwy Lywydd, and I believe we must strengthen those voices now, at this critical time, for so many caught up in this terrible carnage.
Rhaid i ddynoliaeth fod yn drech yn Israel a Phalesteina. Mae fy etholwyr yn dweud wrthyf eu bod eisiau cadoediad parhaol ar unwaith, rhyddhau gwystlon, lefelau priodol o gymorth dyngarol, a dechrau ateb gwleidyddol a fydd yn para. Mae António Guterres, Ysgrifennydd Cyffredinol y Cenhedloedd Unedig wedi siarad yn rymus iawn yn ystod y cyfnod ofnadwy hwn. Mae wedi dweud, 'Mae'r rhain yn adegau mewn hanes pan fo'n rhaid gweithredu.' Rwy'n falch iawn fod pobl yng Nghymru wedi gorymdeithio, wedi mynd i ralïau, wedi protestio—ac rwyf wedi bod yn freintiedig iawn i fod yn rhan o hynny—i sicrhau bod eu lleisiau'n cael eu clywed dros ddynoliaeth a heddwch. Rwy'n credu nawr a thrwy gydol yr argyfwng ofnadwy hwn ei bod hi mor bwysig fod cynrychiolwyr gwleidyddol ac arweinwyr gwleidyddol ar bob lefel wedi codi llais a lleisio'u barn—wedi siarad o blaid cadoediad uniongyrchol a pharhaol, y lefelau priodol o gymorth dyngarol, rhyddhau gwystlon a dechrau'r datrysiad gwleidyddol. Dyna'r Gymru rwyf eisiau bod yn rhan ohoni, Ddirprwy Lywydd, ac rwy'n credu bod yn rhaid inni gryfhau'r lleisiau hynny nawr, ar yr adeg dyngedfennol hon, ar ran y nifer fawr sydd wedi'u dal yn y gyflafan ofnadwy hon.
More than 34,000 people have been killed in Gaza and, according to the UN, 72 per cent are thought to be women and children. As a woman, parliamentarian and as a representative of Welsh women in this place, I have a moral duty to use my voice to condemn the deaths and suffering of those innocent women and children. The Welsh Government can't talk about the importance of maternal health, period dignity, children's well-being and the right and importance of education without taking a stand and using every platform and every ounce of influence to call out the appalling, unjust and illegal treatment of children and women in Gaza.
Although we don't have powers over international affairs, we can and should as a nation, as a national Parliament and Government make a powerful statement for peace. We've got a long tradition of using that voice for peace, from Greenham Common to the Iraq war, and we should never underestimate the legitimacy and power of that collective voice. Because when it suits them, the Welsh Government will discuss international affairs at length, often referencing international matters in response to LCMs, treaties, trade agreements, committee reports, and we need only think of the attention given by Ministers in speeches and statements on the appalling invasion of Ukraine and its devastating consequences. So, the essential point here is that the Senedd and Government of Wales cannot be silent, especially now when we see Israel determined to enact even more death and destruction in Rafah. We need them to speak up and speak out, and the words we must hear are 'Ceasefire now'.
Mae mwy na 34,000 o bobl wedi cael eu lladd yn Gaza ac yn ôl y Cenhedloedd Unedig, credir bod 72 y cant yn fenywod a phlant. Fel menyw, seneddwr ac fel cynrychiolydd ar ran menywod Cymru yn y lle hwn, mae gennyf ddyletswydd foesol i ddefnyddio fy llais i gondemnio marwolaethau a dioddefaint y menywod a'r plant diniwed hynny. Ni all Llywodraeth Cymru siarad am bwysigrwydd iechyd mamau, urddas mislif, lles plant a hawl a phwysigrwydd addysg heb wneud safiad a defnyddio pob platfform a phob owns o ddylanwad i feirniadu triniaeth echrydus, anghyfiawn ac anghyfreithlon plant a menywod yn Gaza.
Er nad oes gennym bwerau dros faterion rhyngwladol, fe allwn ac fe ddylem wneud datganiad pwerus dros heddwch fel cenedl, fel Senedd genedlaethol ac fel Llywodraeth. Mae gennym draddodiad hir o ddefnyddio'r llais hwnnw dros heddwch, o Gomin Greenham i ryfel Irac, ac ni ddylem byth danbrisio dilysrwydd a phŵer y llais cyfunol hwnnw. Oherwydd pan fydd yn ei siwtio nhw, bydd Llywodraeth Cymru yn trafod materion rhyngwladol yn helaeth, gan gyfeirio'n aml at faterion rhyngwladol mewn ymateb i gynigion cydsyniad deddfwriaethol, cytuniadau, cytundebau masnach, adroddiadau pwyllgorau, ac nid oes ond angen inni feddwl am y sylw a roddir gan Weinidogion mewn areithiau a datganiadau i'r ymosodiad echrydus ar Wcráin a'i ganlyniadau dinistriol. Felly, y pwynt hanfodol yma yw na all Senedd a Llywodraeth Cymru fod yn dawel, yn enwedig nawr pan welwn Israel yn benderfynol o gyflawni mwy fyth o ladd a dinistr yn Rafah. Mae angen iddynt godi llais yn glir, a'r geiriau y mae'n rhaid inni eu clywed yw 'Cadoediad nawr'.
As Rhun ap Iorwerth said, we cannot get used to the level of carnage that's going on; we must not turn away. Jana Ayad is a child, roughly the same age as my second granddaughter. She's all skin and bones, starving to death because of a deliberate policy not to allow enough food into Gaza to feed all these people displaced by the bombing. With the right nutrition, Jana could be saved, if the blockade of Gaza was lifted.
On Monday night a journalist, Salem Abu Toyor, and his son, were killed when an Israeli bomb struck their house. Israel has killed more journalists in Gaza than all journalists killed in the second world war, in just 200 days. Whether Israeli military are deliberately killing journalists—or does it just have laissez-faire attitude towards killing civilians living in Gaza, and journalists, like health workers and aid workers, get in the way of their campaign?
We're told that the latest ceasefire package is a generous offer, says Antony Blinken. One month without bombing and starvation, followed by a massacre in Rafah, or an immediate assault on Rafah doesn't feel like either generous, attractive or in line with the rules around the conduct of war. This occupying army has a duty to care for civilians in the area, not met in either Gaza or the West Bank. The US Government must insist on an immediate and endurable ceasefire, or withhold all military aid to Israel, and we must continue to shout for an immediate ceasefire and an endurable, sustainable solution.
Fel y dywedodd Rhun ap Iorwerth, ni allwn ddod i arfer â lefel y gyflafan sy'n digwydd; rhaid inni beidio â throi ein cefnau. Plentyn yw Jana Ayad, tua'r un oed â fy ail wyres. Nid yw'n ddim ond croen ac esgyrn, yn llwgu i farwolaeth oherwydd polisi bwriadol i beidio â chaniatáu digon o fwyd i mewn i Gaza i fwydo'r holl bobl sydd wedi'u dadleoli gan y bomio. Gyda'r maeth cywir, gellid achub Jana, pe bai blocâd Gaza yn cael ei godi.
Nos Lun cafodd newyddiadurwr, Salem Abu Toyor, a'i fab, eu lladd pan darodd bom Israelaidd eu tŷ. Mae Israel wedi lladd mwy o newyddiadurwyr yn Gaza na'r holl newyddiadurwyr a laddwyd yn yr ail ryfel byd, mewn dim ond 200 diwrnod. A yw milwyr Israel yn fwriadol yn lladd newyddiadurwyr—neu a oes ganddi agwedd laissez-faire tuag at ladd sifiliaid sy'n byw yn Gaza, ac mae newyddiadurwyr, fel gweithwyr iechyd a gweithwyr cymorth, yn mynd o ffordd eu hymgyrch?
Dywedir wrthym fod y pecyn cadoediad diweddaraf yn gynnig hael, meddai Antony Blinken. Nid yw mis heb fomio a newynu, wedi'i ddilyn gan gyflafan yn Rafah, neu ymosodiad uniongyrchol ar Rafah yn teimlo'n hael, yn ddeniadol nac yn cyd-fynd â rheolau rhyfel. Mae gan y fyddin oresgynnol hon ddyletswydd i ofalu am sifiliaid yn yr ardal, ac nid yw hynny'n digwydd yn Gaza na'r Lan Orllewinol. Rhaid i Lywodraeth yr Unol Daleithiau fynnu cadoediad cadarn ar unwaith, neu atal pob cymorth milwrol i Israel, a rhaid inni barhau i weiddi am gadoediad ar unwaith ac ateb parhaus, cynaliadwy.
Diolch yn fawr iawn i ti, Peredur, am dy agoriad rhagorol a phwerus iawn i'r cyfraniad yma. Mae'r rhai hynny sydd yn amddiffyn gweithredoedd gwladwriaeth Israel yn dweud mai amddiffyn eu hunain mae'r wladwriaeth honno, ond nid gweithred amddiffynnol ydy lladd 35,000 o bobl. Nid gweithred amddiffynnol ydy lladd traean ohonyn nhw yn blant. Nid gweithred amddiffynnol ydy bomio ysbytai gyda chleifion ynddyn nhw, ac yn sicr nid gweithred amddiffynnol ydy atal cymorth dyngarol rhag cyrraedd poblogaeth sydd ar fin marw o newyn. Yn wir, yn ôl diffiniad yr International Court of Justice, gellir diffinio'r gweithredoedd hyn fel gweithred hil-laddiad.
Rŵan, roedd y newyddion ddaru ni ei gael rhai wythnosau yn ôl ynghylch bomio cerbydau World Central Kitchen yn andros o drist, ac fe glywsom ni fod yna dri pherson o’r Deyrnas Gyfunol wedi cael eu lladd. Yn sydyn iawn, ddaru Lywodraeth y Deyrnas Gyfunol ddangos diddordeb. Yr hyn welsom ni, mewn gwirionedd, oedd bod bywyd un person gwyn o Brydain yn gyfwerth i fywyd 11,000 o Balestiniaid diniwed.
Rŵan, mae’r bomio yma wedi cael ei alluogi oherwydd bod Israel yn medru prynu arfau, a hynny heb ddim rheolaeth gan y gwladwriaethau sydd yn eu gwerthu nhw. Felly, mae gen i ddiddordeb i glywed yn ymateb y Gweinidog pa gamau mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn eu gwneud er mwyn sicrhau nad oes yna unrhyw arfau o Gymru, neu ddarnau o arfau sy’n cael eu gwneud yng Nghymru, yn cael eu cyfrannau a’u gwerthu i Lywodraeth Israel. Mae’n rhaid inni atal y gwerthu arfau yma a’r trwyddedu o’r gwerthu yma. Diolch yn fawr iawn.
Thank you very much, Peredur, for your wonderful and very powerful contribution to this debate. Those who defend the actions of the state of Israel say that that state is protecting itself, but killing 35,000 people is not an act of defence. It's not an act of defence to kill a third of them being children. It's not an act of defence to bomb patients in hospital, and it's certainly not an act of defence to prevent humanitarian aid from reaching a population that is about to starve to death. Indeed, according to the International Court of Justice definition, these acts could be described as genocide.
Now, the news that we received some weeks ago on the bombing of the World Central Kitchen vehicles was devastatingly sad, and we heard that three people from the UK were killed. All of a sudden, the UK Government took an interest. What we saw in reality was that the life of one white person from Britain was equivalent to the lives of 11,000 innocent Palestinians.
Now, those bombings have been allowed because Israel is able to buy weapons without any restrictions from the nations providing them. So, I’d be interested to hear in the Minister’s response what steps the Welsh Government is taking in order to ensure that no arms from Wales or components from Wales are sold to the Israeli Government. We must prevent that sale of arms and the licensing of those sales. Thank you.
Galwaf ar Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet dros Ddiwylliant a Chyfiawnder Cymdeithasol i ymateb i'r ddadl—Lesley Griffiths.
I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Culture and Social Justice to reply to the debate—Lesley Griffiths.
Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer, and thank you, Peredur Owen Griffiths, for bringing forward this very important debate. All of us around this Chamber have been horrified by the onset of and continuing violence in Israel, Palestine and the wider region. The Welsh Government is conscious that whilst foreign policy issues are not devolved, there are very real and lasting consequences in our Welsh communities. It is valuable we have this opportunity to discuss those consequences in more detail.
Today’s debate also builds upon the ceasefire motion that Peredur referred to, which was debated in this Chamber on 8 November last year. In keeping with convention—and I just want to clarify this—Welsh Ministers abstained from the vote on that motion as matters of foreign policy are not devolved to Senedd Cymru. However, in the debate itself my predecessor, the Minister for Social Justice, was clear the Welsh Government wanted to see a full ceasefire as soon as possible. This position has been repeated in Plenary by both the First Minister and the former First Minister, and I know the First Minister will answer the correspondence Peredur referred to.
There must be a renewed sense of urgency amongst the international community to deliver a full and permanent ceasefire, ending the suffering on all sides as quickly as possible. As the First Minister said last week, there is a very real humanitarian crisis taking place. We sincerely hope all relevant partners ensure a significant and immediate increase in aid entering Gaza, agree to release all of the hostages, end the violence, and meaningfully engage in the development of a lasting two-state solution.
A cessation of violence must be the essential platform for a longer term and determined political process towards the establishment of a two-state solution based on a sovereign Palestinian state and a secure Israel. There can be no security for anyone in Israel and Palestine without a long-term peace that is fair to both. There has been and continues to be unimaginable suffering for innocent people on all sides, and it is imperative that everyone recognises the common humanity of all victims.
In Wales the challenge for us is identifying the influence we can have to help bring about the changes we all want to see, to stop the hatred and its consequences. The history and geopolitics of the region, as well as the continuing violence and the fact that foreign policy is not devolved, severely limits the scope of what we can do, despite our deep sorrow. [Interruption.] Can I just carry on for a minute, please? Nevertheless, there are things we can and we are doing in Wales to support the communities living here who are affected.
Diolch yn fawr, Ddirprwy Lywydd, a diolch, Peredur Owen Griffiths, am gyflwyno'r ddadl bwysig hon. Mae pob un ohonom o amgylch y Siambr hon wedi cael ein dychryn gan y trais parhaus yn Israel, Palesteina a'r rhanbarth ehangach. Er nad yw materion polisi tramor wedi'u datganoli, mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn ymwybodol fod canlyniadau gwirioneddol a pharhaol iawn yn ein cymunedau yng Nghymru. Mae'n werthfawr ein bod yn cael y cyfle hwn i drafod y canlyniadau hynny'n fanylach.
Mae'r ddadl heddiw hefyd yn adeiladu ar y cynnig cadoediad y cyfeiriodd Peredur ato, ac a drafodwyd yn y Siambr hon ar 8 Tachwedd y llynedd. Yn unol â chonfensiwn—ac rwyf am egluro hyn—fe ymataliodd Gweinidogion Cymru o'r bleidlais ar y cynnig gan nad yw materion polisi tramor wedi'u datganoli i Senedd Cymru. Fodd bynnag, yn y ddadl ei hun roedd fy rhagflaenydd, y Gweinidog Cyfiawnder Cymdeithasol, yn glir fod Llywodraeth Cymru eisiau gweld cadoediad llawn cyn gynted â phosibl. Ailadroddwyd y safbwynt hwn yn y Cyfarfod Llawn gan y Prif Weinidog a'r cyn Brif Weinidog, a gwn y bydd y Prif Weinidog yn ateb yr ohebiaeth y cyfeiriodd Peredur ati.
Rhaid cael ymdeimlad newydd o frys ymhlith y gymuned ryngwladol i sicrhau cadoediad llawn a pharhaol, gan ddod â'r dioddefaint ar bob ochr i ben cyn gynted â phosibl. Fel y dywedodd y Prif Weinidog yr wythnos diwethaf, mae argyfwng dyngarol go iawn yn digwydd. Rydym yn mawr obeithio y bydd yr holl bartneriaid perthnasol yn sicrhau cynnydd sylweddol ac uniongyrchol yn y cymorth i mewn i Gaza, yn cytuno i ryddhau'r holl wystlon, yn dod â'r trais i ben, ac yn cymryd rhan ystyrlon yn natblygiad datrysiad dwy wladwriaeth sy'n para.
Rhaid i roi'r gorau i drais fod yn llwyfan hanfodol ar gyfer proses wleidyddol fwy hirdymor a phendant tuag at sefydlu datrysiad dwy wladwriaeth yn seiliedig ar wladwriaeth sofran Palesteina ac Israel ddiogel. Ni all fod unrhyw ddiogelwch i unrhyw un yn Israel a Phalesteina heb heddwch hirdymor sy'n deg i'r ddwy wladwriaeth. Fe welwyd dioddefaint annirnadwy i bobl ddiniwed ar bob ochr, ac mae'n parhau, ac mae'n hanfodol fod pawb yn cydnabod dynoliaeth gyffredin pob dioddefwr.
Yng Nghymru, yr her i ni yw nodi'r dylanwad y gallwn ei gael i helpu i gyflawni'r newidiadau y mae pawb ohonom am eu gweld, i atal y casineb a'i ganlyniadau. Mae hanes a geowleidyddiaeth y rhanbarth, yn ogystal â'r trais parhaus a'r ffaith nad yw polisi tramor wedi'i ddatganoli, yn cyfyngu'n ddifrifol ar yr hyn y gallwn ei wneud, er gwaethaf ein tristwch dwfn. [Torri ar draws.] A gaf i barhau am funud, os gwelwch yn dda? Serch hynny, mae yna bethau y gallwn ni, ac rydym ni'n eu gwneud yng Nghymru i gefnogi'r cymunedau yr effeithir arnynt sy'n byw yma.
You'll remember that, in the Scottish Parliament, there was a debate held calling for an immediate ceasefire. During that debate the former First Minister Humza Yousaf said that he had sent a letter from the Scottish Government to both Rishi Sunak and Keir Starmer asking them to call for an immediate ceasefire. Has the Welsh Government done the same?
Fe gofiwch, yn Senedd yr Alban, y cynhaliwyd dadl yn galw am gadoediad ar unwaith. Yn ystod y ddadl honno, dywedodd y cyn-Brif Weinidog Humza Yousaf ei fod wedi anfon llythyr gan Lywodraeth yr Alban at Rishi Sunak a Keir Starmer yn gofyn iddynt alw am gadoediad ar unwaith. A yw Llywodraeth Cymru wedi gwneud yr un peth?
'I don't know' is the honest answer.
'Nid wyf yn gwybod' yw'r ateb gonest.
That speaks volumes, really.
Mae hynny'n siarad cyfrolau.
I will look into that for you, and I will obviously write to you and let you know.
We have been monitoring any community tensions relating to this conflict via our community cohesion programme, and monitoring any spikes in hate incidents via our Wales hate support centre. Although there have been some hateful incidents, thankfully these have been isolated, and we have not seen the spikes we feared. Ministers have met with Jewish and Muslim leaders to discuss the impacts of the conflict in Israel and Gaza on our communities here in Wales. We've encouraged inter-cultural solidarity and dialogue in partnership with our faith communities forum. To address any issues in schools, we were able to co-author a letter for schools, colleges and universities in Wales with the Muslim Council of Wales and the Board of Deputies of British Jews. We will continue to work in partnership with all faiths, as we have done so well since the forum was established after 9/11, to promote recognition of our common humanity.
Prejudice and hate have no place in Wales. We expect allegations and incidents of racism and racial harassment to be fully investigated, with appropriate action taken to address the matter and prevent further incidents from happening.
The Welsh Government has made donations to a number of Disasters Emergency Committee appeals in recent years—
Fe edrychaf ar hynny i chi, ac yn amlwg fe ysgrifennaf atoch i roi gwybod i chi.
Rydym wedi bod yn monitro unrhyw densiynau cymunedol sy'n ymwneud â'r gwrthdaro drwy ein rhaglen cydlyniant cymunedol, ac yn monitro unrhyw gynnydd mewn digwyddiadau casineb drwy ganolfan cymorth casineb Cymru. Er bod rhai digwyddiadau atgas wedi bod, diolch byth mae'r rhain yn brin, ac nid ydym wedi gweld y niferoedd mawr yr oeddem yn eu hofni. Mae Gweinidogion wedi cyfarfod ag arweinwyr Iddewig a Mwslimaidd i drafod effeithiau'r gwrthdaro yn Israel a Gaza ar ein cymunedau yma yng Nghymru. Rydym wedi annog undod a deialog rhyngddiwylliannol mewn partneriaeth â'n fforwm cymunedau ffydd. Er mwyn mynd i'r afael ag unrhyw faterion sy'n codi mewn ysgolion, gallasom gyd-ysgrifennu llythyr ar gyfer ysgolion, colegau a phrifysgolion yng Nghymru gyda Chyngor Mwslimaidd Cymru a Bwrdd Dirprwyon Iddewon Prydain. Byddwn yn parhau i weithio mewn partneriaeth â phob ffydd, fel y gwnaethom mor dda ers sefydlu'r fforwm ar ôl 9/11, i hyrwyddo cydnabyddiaeth o'n dynoliaeth gyffredin.
Nid oes lle i ragfarn a chasineb yng Nghymru. Rydym yn disgwyl i honiadau ac achosion o hiliaeth ac aflonyddu hiliol gael eu harchwilio'n llawn, gyda chamau priodol yn cael eu cymryd i fynd i'r afael â'r mater ac atal digwyddiadau pellach rhag digwydd.
Mae Llywodraeth Cymru wedi rhoi rhoddion i sawl apêl gan y Pwyllgor Argyfyngau Brys yn y blynyddoedd diwethaf—
Will you take an intervention?
A wnewch chi dderbyn ymyriad?
Can I just make some progress, please? We have not been able to do this to alleviate some of the suffering in Gaza, because DEC has been unable to launch a campaign. At this time, DEC believes only a lasting ceasefire will enable its agencies the opportunity to effectively provide much-needed aid in Gaza. We continue to see proposals to increase maritime delivery and air drops for aid, which we hope will increase more effective aid. We will keep our position under review should DEC feel the criteria for an appeal can be met.
A gaf i wneud peth cynnydd, os gwelwch yn dda? Nid ydym wedi gallu gwneud hyn i leddfu peth o'r dioddefaint yn Gaza, oherwydd nid yw'r Pwyllgor Argyfyngau Brys wedi gallu lansio ymgyrch. Ar hyn o bryd, mae'r Pwyllgor Argyfyngau Brys yn credu mai dim ond cadoediad parhaol fydd yn galluogi ei asiantaethau i ddarparu cymorth mawr ei angen yn Gaza yn effeithiol. Rydym yn parhau i weld argymhellion ar gyfer cynyddu cyflenwadau cymorth o'r môr a gollwng cymorth o'r awyr, a gobeithio y bydd hynny'n arwain at fwy o gymorth mwy effeithiol. Byddwn yn parhau i adolygu ein safbwynt pe bai'r Pwyllgor Argyfyngau Brys yn teimlo y gellir bodloni'r meini prawf ar gyfer apêl.
Thank you very much for that. Do you share my grave concern about aid workers, who are in not just Gaza but in the West Bank at the moment? Some of my former colleagues in ActionAid Palestine were trapped in Gaza for a long time at the beginning of this conflict, and are now in the West Bank in terrible conditions. We've heard about what happened at World Central Kitchen as well. Do you agree with me that these people are people who want to keep other people alive, that they give up their lives in order to make this world a better place, and it is only an urgent ceasefire and an end to killings that will actually make sure that they can get the aid to the people who so desperately need it?
Diolch yn fawr am hynny. A ydych chi'n rhannu fy mhryder dybryd am weithwyr cymorth, sydd yn Gaza ac yn y Lan Orllewinol ar hyn o bryd? Roedd rhai o fy nghyn-gydweithwyr yn ActionAid Palestine yn gaeth yn Gaza am amser hir ar ddechrau'r gwrthdaro hwn, ac maent bellach yn y Lan Orllewinol mewn amgylchiadau ofnadwy. Rydym hefyd wedi clywed am yr hyn a ddigwyddodd yn World Central Kitchen. A ydych chi'n cytuno â mi fod y bobl hyn yn bobl sydd am gadw pobl eraill yn fyw, eu bod yn aberthu eu bywydau er mwyn gwneud y byd hwn yn lle gwell, a dim ond cadoediad brys a diwedd ar y lladd fydd yn sicrhau y gallant gael y cymorth i'r bobl sydd gymaint o'i angen?
Yes, absolutely. As you say, those people go to these countries to keep other people safe, and it's horrific that they are obviously put in that position.
The Welsh Government is keeping in regular contact with the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office to understand UK efforts in relation to the conflict, and to understand any perceived impacts for Wales. Members will know that, last week, the Brisley family situation was raised in First Minister's question, and the FCDO has confirmed to us that support is being provided to the family in these horrific circumstances. The First Minister committed to working with Members who may have constituents with family members who were victims on 7 October, or who are being held as hostages, to understand if further support is needed. Each and every day hostages remain in captivity prolongs the agony of the atrocities, and we want to ensure appropriate support is available.
Since 7 October, Welsh Ministers have asked UK Government Ministers about opportunities for resettlement from Gaza for those most in need. It appears to us there continues to be no current prospect of a Gaza resettlement scheme for the UK. In recent years, Welsh local authorities and our communities have provided a welcome to Ukrainians, to Afghans, Syrians and asylum seekers from many countries. Accordingly, as a nation that aspires to be a nation of sanctuary, we would also aim to play a full part in any Gaza resettlement scheme if one was established.
We've been following the campaign for a Gaza family reunion scheme with keen interest. The Welsh Government already funds the British Red Cross to support family reunion, helping those with refugee status to bring their family members to Wales via a safe and legal route established by the UK Government. However, referrals to the project from Gaza are complicated by the barriers to exit Gaza. The painful history of the region affects the willingness of Palestinians to leave, and the willingness of neighbouring countries to permit entry. There is a clear concern that Palestinians may never be able to return if they leave now. Reassurances—
Yn hollol. Fel y dywedwch, mae'r bobl hynny'n mynd i'r gwledydd hyn i gadw pobl eraill yn ddiogel, ac mae'n erchyll eu bod yn cael eu rhoi yn y sefyllfa honno.
Mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn cadw mewn cysylltiad rheolaidd â'r Swyddfa Dramor, y Gymanwlad a Datblygu i ddeall ymdrechion y DU mewn perthynas â'r gwrthdaro, ac i ddeall unrhyw effeithiau canfyddedig i Gymru. Bydd yr Aelodau'n gwybod, yr wythnos diwethaf, fod sefyllfa'r teulu Brisley wedi cael sylw mewn cwestiwn i'r Prif Weinidog, ac mae'r Swyddfa Dramor, y Gymanwlad a Datblygu wedi cadarnhau bod cymorth yn cael ei ddarparu i'r teulu yn yr amgylchiadau erchyll hyn. Ymrwymodd y Prif Weinidog i weithio gydag Aelodau a allai fod ag etholwyr sydd ag aelodau teuluol a oedd yn ddioddefwyr ar 7 Hydref, neu sy'n cael eu dal fel gwystlon, i ddeall a oes angen cymorth pellach. Mae pob dydd y mae gwystlon yn parhau'n gaeth yn ymestyn poen yr erchyllterau, ac rydym am sicrhau bod cefnogaeth briodol ar gael.
Ers 7 Hydref, mae Gweinidogion Cymru wedi gofyn i Weinidogion Llywodraeth y DU am gyfleoedd ar gyfer adsefydlu o Gaza i'r rhai sydd â'r angen mwyaf. Mae'n ymddangos i ni nad oes unrhyw obaith ar hyn o bryd o gael cynllun adsefydlu Gaza ar gyfer y DU. Yn ystod y blynyddoedd diwethaf, mae awdurdodau lleol Cymru a'n cymunedau wedi rhoi croeso i Wcreiniaid, i Affganiaid, Syriaid a cheiswyr lloches o lawer o wledydd. Yn unol â hynny, fel cenedl sy'n dyheu am fod yn genedl noddfa, byddem hefyd yn anelu at chwarae rhan lawn mewn unrhyw gynllun adsefydlu Gaza pe bai un yn cael ei sefydlu.
Rydym wedi bod yn dilyn yr ymgyrch am gynllun aduno ar gyfer teuluoedd Gaza gyda diddordeb brwd. Mae Llywodraeth Cymru eisoes yn ariannu'r Groes Goch Brydeinig i gefnogi aduno teuluol, gan helpu'r rhai sydd â statws ffoadur i ddod ag aelodau o'u teulu i Gymru drwy lwybr diogel a chyfreithiol a sefydlwyd gan Lywodraeth y DU. Fodd bynnag, mae atgyfeiriadau i'r prosiect o Gaza yn cael eu cymhlethu gan y rhwystrau rhag gadael Gaza. Mae hanes poenus y rhanbarth yn effeithio ar barodrwydd Palesteiniaid i adael, a pharodrwydd gwledydd cyfagos i ganiatáu mynediad. Mae pryder clir na fydd Palesteiniaid byth yn gallu dychwelyd os ydynt yn gadael nawr. Mae sicrwydd—
[Inaudible.]
[Anghlywadwy.]
I can't take any more, sorry. Reassurances about the right to return for anyone leaving Gaza are clearly beyond our control. However, solutions need to be found if we are able to support reunion in Wales.
We have not called specifically for a Gaza family reunion scheme. Instead, we have called for a more progressive version of the UK family reunion scheme, which builds upon some of the successes of the now closed Ukraine family scheme. The Ukraine scheme supported 57,000 arrivals in a very short period, largely because the definition of 'family' was broad and application processing was quick. This same approach for Palestinians and others could have a very beneficial impact for the well-being and security of many families.
Family reunion is vital for any sanctuary seeker living in Wales, regardless of where in the world their separated family member is living. Our approach is to advocate for a family scheme that could support Palestinians or any other person who has found sanctuary here in Wales. And we will continue to call for this.
In conclusion, Welsh Government will play a constructive role to support affected communities and families in Wales, and seek to play any part we can in supporting international efforts. We call again for a ceasefire, for an increase in aid, and for the hostages to be released. Diolch.
Ni allaf dderbyn rhagor, mae'n ddrwg gennyf. Mae'n amlwg fod sicrwydd ynghylch yr hawl i ddychwelyd i unrhyw un sy'n gadael Gaza y tu hwnt i'n rheolaeth ni. Fodd bynnag, mae angen dod o hyd i atebion os ydym am allu cefnogi aduno yng Nghymru.
Nid ydym wedi galw'n benodol am gynllun aduno teuluoedd Gaza. Yn hytrach, rydym wedi galw am fersiwn fwy blaengar o gynllun aduno teuluoedd y DU, sy'n adeiladu ar rai o lwyddiannau cynllun teuluoedd Wcráin sydd bellach wedi cau. Fe wnaeth cynllun Wcráin gefnogi 57,000 o bobl a gyrhaeddodd mewn cyfnod byr iawn, yn bennaf oherwydd bod y diffiniad o 'deulu' yn eang a bod prosesu ceisiadau'n gyflym. Gallai'r un dull hwn ar gyfer Palesteiniaid ac eraill gael effaith fuddiol iawn ar les a diogelwch llawer o deuluoedd.
Mae aduno teuluol yn hanfodol i unrhyw un sy'n ceisio noddfa sy'n byw yng Nghymru, ni waeth ble yn y byd y mae eu haelod teuluol a wahanwyd yn byw. Ein dull gweithredu yw cefnogi cynllun teuluol a allai gefnogi Palesteiniaid neu unrhyw berson arall sydd wedi cael noddfa yma yng Nghymru. Byddwn yn parhau i alw am hyn.
I gloi, bydd Llywodraeth Cymru yn chwarae rhan adeiladol yn cefnogi cymunedau a theuluoedd yr effeithir arnynt yng Nghymru, ac yn ceisio chwarae unrhyw ran a allwn i gefnogi ymdrechion rhyngwladol. Rydym yn galw eto am gadoediad, am gynyddu cymorth, ac am i'r gwystlon gael eu rhyddhau. Diolch.
Diolch i bawb. Daw hynny â thrafodion heddiw i ben.
I thank all Members. That brings today's proceedings to a close.
Daeth y cyfarfod i ben am 18:45.
The meeting ended at 18:45.