Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru

I call Members to order.

The first item on our agenda this afternoon is questions to the Minister for Finance and Trefnydd, and the first question, Delyth Jewell.

We have called on the UK Government to release funds to tackle its self-imposed chaos. As well as allocating £34 million through the European Union transition fund, we have been actively increasing preparations for a 'no deal' exit, including the Preparing Wales portal, redeploying staff resources, and co-ordinating work across public services.

I thank the Minister for her answer. Of course, the resources that have been spent on 'no deal' planning could have been spent on the Welsh national health service and our schools, which are crying out for investment, had the Westminster Government negotiated a sensible deal, along the lines set out in the joint Plaid Cymru/Welsh Government White Paper, 'Securing Wales' Future', published in January 2017. Not doing so led to total gridlock in Westminster, economic uncertainty and the requirement for Welsh Government to expend time and resources preparing for the eventuality of a 'no deal' Brexit. Could the Minister inform us whether it is her understanding that UK Government spending on 'no deal' is Barnettised? And, further to that, does the Minister agree that the British Treasury should compensate Welsh Government for any funds spent on Wales-specific preparations in this regard, since it is the fault of the Westminster Government that these valuable Welsh funds have been squandered?

Thank you very much. There's very little that I could disagree with in the statement that you've provided this afternoon, which does demonstrate the level of expense that the Welsh Government is making in terms of investing to ensure that we are as best prepared as we possibly can for a Brexit of whatever type that might take. But what I have to say as well is that the funds that we're putting in through the EU transition fund and the level of resource that the Welsh Government is having to turn away from our day-to-day, core business and put into 'no deal' planning are absolutely huge and this is dominating the work of all departments. We have allocated funding that we have had as a Barnett consequential through our EU transition fund. So, some of that funding has gone to the business resilience fund—that's £1.7 million; £1.2 million to strengthen the capacity of local authorities to respond to Brexit; £435,000 to develop police capacity to respond to any civil contingencies; £0.5 million for local resilience forums, who will co-ordinate the response to civil contingencies, as and when they emerge; and £0.5 million to expand the provision of information and support, including immigration advice, to help European Economic Area citizens who are living in Wales. All of these are things that we only have to do because of the chaos that the UK Government has brought about.

Obviously, the Chancellor made £31 million available to you as a Welsh Government for 'no deal' planning. It's important to understand how that money is being used within Welsh Government, and, indeed, its partner bodies. Can you indicate how you've distributed that money, finance Minister, and, importantly, how much of that £31 million has gone outside of Welsh Government, to support health boards or local authorities, for example, which might have to make their own preparations around 'no deal' contingency?

Well, all of those items that I've just described have been funded through the EU transition fund, which was funded with the money you describe, alongside funding for training and upskilling the workforce in Wales's automotive and aerospace industries, and funding for Welsh universities to drive international partnerships and promote Wales as a study destination. I'd be more than happy to share again with Members the list of schemes that we've already funded through our EU transition fund.FootnoteLink

We continue to prioritise funding for the NHS in Wales, and the 2019-20 budget approved by the Assembly in January provides £7.4 billion for core NHS funding, representing record levels of investment in the NHS in Wales.

Diolch. In his response to Paul Davies yesterday, the First Minister said that,

'our GP community has to do more to match the expectations of patient populations'.

But it's now over seven years since the British Medical Association Cymru and the Royal College of General Practitioners launched campaigns aimed at Assembly Members, warning of a ticking time-bomb and that 90 per cent of patient contacts are with general practice, and yet funding as the share of the NHS cake had fallen. And they've continuously relaunched those campaigns since. It's almost five years since the North Wales Local Medical Committee came to the Assembly to say we had a crisis in north Wales, warning that several practices couldn't fill vacancies and that many GPs were seriously considering retirement because of the expanding workload. Only last week, the north Wales community health council wrote to the health Minister here in response to the Welsh Government consultation on the options paper, 'NHS Wales Performers List', saying that their members were disappointed and that the difficulties in north Wales have been present and increasing for at least five years and that there's no question about if or whether the difficulties in recruitment and retention will continue. In terms of allocating funds for GP services within the NHS budget, how would you therefore respond to the final sentence of their letter last week that the Welsh Government needs to demonstrate that it is working hard to develop a robust and inventive approach to this crisis that makes the most of the freedom to innovate that is afforded to NHS Wales?

You'll remember, of course, that the health Minister responded to many of those concerns, particularly regarding the GP service in Wales during his statement on 'Train. Work. Live.' yesterday afternoon. And, of course, the First Minister also made some comments on the same during the First Minister's questions session yesterday afternoon.

But in terms of our overall investment in the NHS, of course, core NHS funding with a total investment of £7.4 billion in 2019-20 represents the single largest budget within the Welsh Government and contains our core funding for the NHS Welsh health boards and trusts, and we're investing more than £0.5 billion extra on health and social care in 2019-20. This will be used to fund performance, NHS pay and prevention, including £192 million to take forward the implementation of our long-term plan for health and social care, 'A Healthier Wales'. And, of course, there is £14 million over two years, from 2018 to 2020, as part of our agreement with Plaid Cymru, which includes the commitment to establish medical education in north Wales. Alongside that, we have a serious programme of capital investment in the NHS, not least in north Wales. So, we're demonstrating very clearly that health remains a key priority for Welsh Government.

It is clear, of course, that effective co-operation between health and social care services can reduce the pressure on both health and care budgets. I'm very grateful to the Minister for agreeing to meet me yesterday to discuss the ways forward to potentially develop some consensus around innovative ways of funding care. Does the Minister agree with me that we will continue to face increased pressures on health budgets unless we can solve the issues of the interface between health and care? And does she also agree with me that there will need to be substantial investment in our care services if we are to create that parity of esteem between the two services that we agree across this Chamber, I think, is desirable?

Thank you very much for the question and thank you also for the very useful meeting that we had yesterday to discuss innovative ways in which we can fund social care in future, given the huge pressures that we know already exist in the system, but also the anticipated increasing pressures due to the ageing population that we have here in Wales and the escalating needs that some people will have in Wales as well.

So, one of those options that we discussed was the social care levy. It's one of the options that the inter-ministerial group is looking at in terms of how we prepare ourselves to meet that challenge. We're also looking at other innovative ways of funding. I'm really keen to take this piece of work forward on a cross-party basis because it is something that we will all be keen to work together on, I'm sure. We've had some good, I think, cross-party consensus in debates on that.

I'm really excited by the work of the integrated care fund, because that genuinely brings together health and social services. The transformation fund is also doing some good work in that area. So, it demonstrates really that if we are to achieve good outcomes for people, we need to ensure that we're not separating health and social care in our minds, but also giving the opportunity to bring those two things together through budgets and we do see health boards and local authorities working in a very different way alongside the third sector when we enable them to share those budgets.

I call the party spokespeople to question the Minister. The Conservative spokesperson, Nick Ramsay.

Diolch, Llywydd. Finance Minister, the Federation of Small Businesses report on creating a new tax system in Wales has highlighted some concerning facts about the lack of awareness on devolved taxes. Perhaps most shockingly, their August 2018 survey found that 66 per cent of FSB members said that they were not aware of devolved taxes when questioned, with some stating that there'd been little or no information provided by the Welsh Government. Admittedly, that is a few months back. This seems to contradict an answer I received from the Welsh Revenue Authority yesterday, who'd estimated that they'd reached an audience of around 4.5 million through digital and social media campaigns. Can you update us on progress being made with raising the profile of devolved taxation in Wales? And who do you think is right—is it the WRA or is it the FSB?

Thank you for raising this important issue, especially in what is a momentous week for tax in Wales. I was certainly pleased to receive the FSB's report, and I was pleased to invite them to give a presentation at the recent tax advisory group in terms of helping us understand from their perspective and the perspective of their members how they best can work alongside Welsh Government and the Welsh Revenue Authority. In terms of who's right, I think actually they're probably both right, in the sense that the FSB report came out in August, so that was before—or the research was done in August—a lot of the engagement and communication work was undertaken, and, actually, the FSB's research does reflect the kind of research that Welsh Government has done in terms of understanding the level of awareness and understanding that is out there in the Welsh public in terms of taxes. I think that that report does provide us with a really good baseline on which to work now, in terms of driving forward our communication work to help people understand Welsh taxes better. Also, we need to do some further work, I think, on local taxes. But certainly the Welsh Revenue Authority has been doing some absolutely excellent and intensive work in order to communicate.

I resisted the temptation to say it was a momentous week in Welsh taxation because we tend to say that during every set of questions with all the changes that have been happening with devolved taxation over the last months and, indeed, the preparations over longer. When he was the Cabinet Secretary for Finance, the First Minister said that he was sceptical about the extent to which taxation issues had an effect on behaviour, and he said,

'I don't take the economic view of mankind that people are always calculating down to the last penny whether they want to be in one place or another'.

Yet, returning to the FSB's report, which I'm glad you've had sight of, that states that some solicitors dealing with land transaction tax are already saying that their clients are considering buying property close to the border to avoid paying higher property taxes in Wales. In fact, one of their key findings was that concerns continue to be expressed about the potential for the different rates between land transaction tax and UK stamp duty land tax, and the effect of that influencing taxpayer behaviour and the potential for distortion. I appreciate these are still early days and that it was only some solicitors who said that, but nonetheless there's clearly an area here that needs to be monitored by the Welsh Government. Do you think that we are doing enough to monitor potential distortions along the border area, and what preparations are you making to make sure that, going forward, the property market in Wales is stable?

I realise your primary concern here relates to non-residential land transaction tax, and, of course, we have a lower starting rate of tax for the purchase of business premises here in Wales than under stamp duty land tax, and this means that all businesses purchasing premises up to £1.1 million in Wales either pay no tax at all or they pay less than they would under stamp duty land tax. This really does benefit small and medium-sized businesses across the country.

In the first year of land transaction tax it's estimated that around nine out of 10 transactions would pay either no LTT or the amount would be less than it would have been under SDLT for non-residential transactions. So, I think that actions that we've taken certainly are beneficial to small and medium-sized enterprises. I do understand the concern over the additional 1 per cent that there is for the higher rate. However, I think that it is far too early in the day to make a conclusion as to what, if any, impact that had on behaviour, and it's also worth bearing in mind that the year before LTT came in was an exceptional year in terms of tax take or in terms of transactions on those higher properties. So, I think that it's something that we are watching closely. We'll have the outturn figures in June of this year, so we'll have a better understanding of at least the first year's behaviour.

My colleague on the Finance Committee, Mike Hedges, is always keen to point out the cyclical nature of LTT and property transactions, and what you've just said about it being early days and having had exceptional years is certainly something that we've looked at on the Finance Committee.

I welcome what you said, that people buying properties at the lower end should have less of a tax burden. I think we would all agree with that, not just on the issue of taxation, but income tax as well, with the UK Government taking more people out of the tax bracket in terms of the allowance at the lower end. That's to be welcomed. However, going back to the FSB report and LTT, the most recent figures are also starting to sound warning bells about raising the tax thresholds for properties at the higher end, over £1 million, to what are some of the highest levels in the UK.

Although we are yet to see the full year's collection for land transaction tax, CoStar's UK commercial property investment review for quarter 3 in 2018 shows that Wales is one of the weakest UK regions for property investment—down 70 per cent, or £54 million against a five-year quarterly average. Now, whilst I accept that taxation might not be the be-all and end-all in terms of what's causing that, will you undertake to keep this situation under very close review? And if you are receiving warning signs from CoStar and other organisations that the statistics are pointing to the Welsh Government's taxation policy in this area being detrimental to the economy, will you change course pretty speedily and make sure that we are not discouraging investment by taxing those at the higher end too much?

Thank you, and I can confirm that officials are in regular contact with property industry experts, and that engagement is ongoing. We'll certainly be monitoring any perceivable impact that the differential rate that we have here, in terms of the higher rate of LTT, might have on those high-value transactions. As I say, we're just a year in, so we don't actually have a full picture yet, but it is absolutely something that I am keeping a keen eye on.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Thank you, Llywydd. The world is changing, the economy is changing with it, and one change is that the information economy is becoming more and more important, and in that regard expenditure on research and development will become more and more important. That’s how you generate new ideas and new devices that will be the basis for a new generation of businesses. So, can the Minister give an update on expenditure on R&D within the Welsh Government’s budget?

Certainly. I will seek to provide you with some concrete figures as to our expenditure on R&D,FootnoteLink but one of the concerns that we have had in recent times is, of course, the impact of leaving the European Union on our capacity in R&D. We've been looking very closely at the Reid report in order to ensure that we do have the maximum profile, if you like, in terms of ensuring that Wales is seen as a great destination for R&D, an environment where Welsh Government is supportive, but also an environment where academics are enabled to thrive in an environment that very much promotes the work that they do.

I'm grateful for that response, and I certainly also share the concern about the effects of leaving the European Union on future R&D funding in Wales. R&D funding comes from many different sources, of course, and business is by far the biggest source of funding, but let me look at higher education. Recent figures show UK higher education R&D spend in total of around £6.5 billion. Break that down and we see spend per person in Wales to be £86. In London and the home counties of England, it's £275 per head—almost 60 per cent of the total R&D spend in higher education is spent in the south-east of England. Universities themselves, of course, draw in that R&D funding themselves, but it would be wrong to suggest that Welsh Government couldn't be influential in seeing how much more money we could draw into Wales. Much of the current UK pool of R&D funding is drawn into what's known as the 'golden triangle', between Oxford and Cambridge and the London universities, and because of their track record in R&D they're able to beat off much of the competition and claim a lion's share of funding. But does the Minister agree with me that it's time now that Welsh Government really started to make the case for creating a Welsh pool—a protected Welsh pool—of R&D funding, into which our universities could apply for funding in order to increase expenditure in this sector in Wales?

Well, you clearly raise an extremely important point. Around £0.75 billion was spent on R&D in Wales in 2017—that's the latest year for which we have figures—and that's an increase of 4.6 per cent compared to the previous year. That effectively now matches the increase in R&D spending across the UK.

We've accepted the first recommendation of the Reid review, which is to strengthen our position in London through the office that we have there, and that's something that is currently being undertaken. We've both referred to the EU structural funds programme period. During that, we've invested £340 million, and that represents 20 per cent of all EU structural funds allocated to Wales and it continues to play a vital role in growing the Welsh economy and growing Welsh expertise.

So, certainly, I would be keen to explore what we would do were the UK Government to come through on its guarantee for EU funding. Clearly, there are discussions ongoing there that are causing some concern, not least about the exchange rate to which the UK Government intends to pass on funding to us. There will be discussions, I think, for me to have alongside my colleague—

Referring back to your first words, I admire your positivity in saying that the increase in R&D spending in Wales is matching the increase in other parts of the UK. Let me try to illustrate it. Wales has increased that much from that point, whereas the rest of the UK has increased that much from a point up there. We need to be aiming for parity with other parts of the UK. Let's look elsewhere. Let's look at direct Government R&D spend in Wales. In 2016, of the £2.2 billion spent on research and development by UK Government, £54 per person was spent in London and the home counties, just £5 per person was spent in Wales. And you, as finance Minister, aren't jumping up and down about this every single day. Isn't this just a further example, yes, of the Conservative Government at a UK level not investing in Wales, as we believe on these benches that they should, but also your Government consistently again failing to make the case for Wales's share of R&D funding? And that's to the detriment of Wales and to jobs in Wales.

Obviously, I would disagree. I'm always interested that whenever you seek to make a comparison it's always with London and the home counties, which isn't necessarily a well-recognised comparison with Wales. Spending on R&D is low in Wales, as it is across the UK in Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development terms. It's a challenge that we are facing right across the UK. The level of R&D funding in any relatively small economy, such as Wales, is influenced greatly by a small number of major projects commencing or ending, and that means that any one year's results should be interpreted cautiously.

UKIP spokesperson, David Rowlands. 

Diolch, Llywydd. Minister, I'd like to raise the subject of public procurement. Post Brexit we should be able to re-examine the rules governing public procurement, and this should make it easier for the public sector in Wales to award contracts to small companies and SMEs. However, even discarding Brexit, there are opportunities for the public sector to make it easier for small firms to bid for contracts. For instance, if we should look at the health sector, the problem here is that local firms can't realistically bid for many contracts, for instance to supply food to a particular hospital, because these contracts tend to be awarded by an NHS health board to provide food across the whole of the health board's estate, which of course means most of these contracts end up going to only the larger firms, some of which are not necessarily Welsh. Has the Welsh Government considered how this situation might be changed, for instance by NHS boards breaking up the provision of food into smaller contracts?

Thank you for raising the important issue of procurement. Of course, our strategy is having a positive impact on the economy in Wales and on businesses in Wales, with Wales-based suppliers now winning over half of the annual £6.2 billion procurement expenditure. However, I am very much ambitious to do more, and I'm ambitious for our SMEs to be able to play their full part in that. We're certainly using our policies to lower the barriers to small businesses and to enable them to secure places in supply chains in Wales. The outcomes that we are achieving far exceed the targets that the UK Government is working towards for engaging with SMEs. So, such policies include community benefits, the supplier qualification information database, project bank accounts, the code of practice for ethical employment and our joint bidding guidance. And we're continuing to open up opportunities for smaller firms, and our encouragement for public bodies to advertise all contracts below £25,000 on Sell2Wales is driving some really positive change. 

We do, on these benches, acknowledge the fact that the National Procurement Service is making a difference, but we also know that the Welsh Government will need to change its approach after Brexit, and this was recognised by the First Minister, who stated in the Chamber recently that the Welsh Government would, after Brexit, look at using procurement on a more local or regional level. And we also know that a template for public procurement policy was drawn up when Jane Hutt was finance Minister and it covered the construction industry in Wales. Has the Government made any analysis of how well this policy has worked in the construction sector?

Certainly, we're working to ensure that small and medium-sized enterprises are able to bid into contracts in the construction sector, and that's one of our key target sectors, actually, in terms of our approach to procurement. Of course, we had the review of the National Procurement Service and Value Wales, and we're currently working together with stakeholders to transition those teams to a new service with a reduced portfolio of national contracts, but with very much a stronger focus on the development and delivery of procurement policy on that local and regional basis, which I think would provide smaller construction companies with a much greater opportunity to engage with the contracts that are available.

Of course I thank, again, the Minister for her answer, but one of the obstacles to tendering for contracts is, of course, the tendering process itself, which involves completing lots of complex forms, and then the process takes up lots of resources, which will often be beyond the capability of small or medium-sized companies. So, to sum up, Minister, I really do think this is an area that the Welsh Government needs to take very seriously, as it can have a very substantial impact on the foundational economy. If contracts are awarded to local companies, the money generated tends to remain in the local community, and this is not necessarily the case when contracts are awarded to very large firms, particularly if they are headquartered outside Wales. 

We recognise that small companies can often struggle to bid for large contracts, and that's why I'm really pleased that, as of March, 31 per cent of contracts that were published on Sell2Wales this year were advertised as being suitable for joint bidding, and I think that's a really important way of supporting small local companies to bid into those contracts. And we are seeing some of those positive impacts in the construction sector, where 78 per cent of contracts or frameworks over £750,000 advertised via Sell2Wales have been awarded to Welsh contractors this year. 

The reduction of carbon emissions is a priority for the Welsh Government. A fortnight ago we published 'Prosperity for All: A Low Carbon Wales', our cross-Government plan to cut emissions and contribute to the global fight against climate change.

You’ve not said anything about disinvesting in fossil fuel companies, as far as I can see. We are falling behind in Wales in this context because the Government in the Republic of Ireland has decided that they will be the first nation in the world to disinvest and to sell all of their investments in fossil fuel companies after a Bill was passed recently, with the support of all parties there. I'm sure we wouldn't be a long way off achieving that in this Senedd too, if the Government chose to follow that particular path. For example, in the Republic of Ireland, their national investment fund, worth £8 billion, will be disinvesting in coal, gas, oil and peat as soon as practically possible, and that’s expected to happen over no more than five years. So, will you commit for Wales to emulate that to clearly demonstrate the real commitment that we have in terms of climate change in this nation?

I'll certainly commit to exploring that with colleagues and to looking very closely at what the Republic of Ireland have achieved, and then I will write to you following that. 

Minister, we know that local government pension schemes have invested in a huge range of companies, including fossil fuel companies as well. We know the sort of pressures that local government pension schemes are under and look like they will continue to be under, so it's not just a question of what the Welsh Government is going to invest or disinvest in. What advice are you giving to local authorities in terms of their pension schemes, to make sure that you get that balance right between discouraging a fossil fuel economy over the decades to come, but also making sure that those local authorities aren't put at more of a financial disadvantage than they might otherwise be? 

In 2018 Monmouthshire County Council voted to request that the greater Gwent fund, which handles the pensions for Monmouthshire, Torfaen, Blaenau Gwent, Caerphilly and Newport councils, make an ordered withdrawal from fossil fuel-based companies. The fund at the time was estimated to hold £245 million of investment in fossil fuel-based companies. So, I think that's a really positive example that we see there, and they're certainly showing some strong leadership within the sector.

Of course, the local government pensions scheme is an England-and-Wales scheme, so it's not devolved and so we wouldn't have any direct influence on it. But we're carefully looking at what's been achieved through the greater Gwent fund.

Current land transaction tax rates and thresholds mean the vast majority of taxpayers pay the same or less tax than under stamp duty land tax. Outturn data for the first year will be considered once published by the Welsh Revenue Authority in June. Evidence indicates that taxpayers receive a high-quality service from the WRA.

Thank you very much for the reply, Minister, but the Federation of Small Businesses in Wales recently published a report on creating a new tax system in Wales. When referring to the land transaction tax, the FSB found that many solicitors raised concerns about the properties close to or straddling the English border. They claim that they have difficulty working out which side of the border a property is on, because there is very little information on the definitive position of the boundary line. Several solicitors call for a straightforward way of quickly identifying whether a property is in England or Wales, preferably through the Welsh Revenue Authority website. Will the Minister agree to look into this matter and see what can be done to address the concerns of solicitors dealing with border properties?

I'll certainly look into any remaining concerns that exist, but I would hope that since the FSB undertook its research back in August those issues have now satisfactorily been resolved. But if there are individual cases where there remains concern, I'd be happy to take those cases up.

The Wales procurement policy statement is having a positive impact on the economy and communities of Wales, with Wales-based suppliers now winning 52 per cent of the annual £6.2 billion procurement expenditure, up from 35 per cent in 2004. Going forward, our policies will build on this to further strengthen the Welsh economy.

Minister, you'll be aware that when the National Procurement Service was first created in 2013 the then Minister, Jane Hutt, described the NPS as a

'very Welsh way to meet Welsh business needs but also value for money for the Welsh pound.'

Since then, however, as you know, the NPS has made significant losses, ultimately leading to the decision by the Welsh Government to review the NPS altogether.

Now, naturally, public procurement has been cited in the Welsh Government's own economic strategy, the economic action plan, as being a key enabler for driving forward business growth and job creation here in Wales. Can I therefore ask you to outline what you believe are the core factors that have contributed to the failure of the NPS? Do you agree that the failure of the NPS constitutes a serious and significant blow to the Welsh Government's overall programme for policy delivery in this Assembly term?

In terms of the NPS, I would certainly refer you to the review that was undertaken of the NPS, which set out what our stakeholders told us they felt wasn't working as well as it could through the approach, and they were things such as not taking a sufficiently strong regional approach or not taking a sufficiently strong local approach to it. So, I think in terms of the most important thing, really, being moving forward from here, work is ongoing now in terms of the future delivery strategy. That work is well under way, as I say. We're sharing a draft with stakeholders by early summer of 2019, and I'd be more than happy to offer colleagues across the Chamber the opportunity to have a briefing session with officials and the opportunity to feed into that strategy, because I know that there's a great deal of interest in public procurement across the Assembly. The initial draft, as I say, should be ready by the end of the month, by which point we would start to go out to discuss it with stakeholders.

We're further refining some of the milestones that we would want, to take account of the feedback that we've already had from the Welsh Local Government Association and NHS Wales. That draft strategy will be the basis for undertaking some further consultation on a new way forward. We'll also be using events such as Procurex as a means of raising awareness of the work, and engaging with as wide a range of stakeholders as possible. But I'm absolutely clear that the way in which we move forward with this agenda has to be very much co-produced with those people who'll be using the service and benefiting from the service.    

Minister, there's no doubt in my mind that the Welsh Government has an ambitious and dynamic strategy through which to harness the power of public procurement for the betterment of communities across Wales. But in order to do so, it's absolutely vital that we have procurement specialists right at the heart of local government, and we know that there are shortages within this area. So, what discussions have you had with the local government Minister around this and, in particular, are there any plans for a successor scheme to the Home Grown Talent scheme, which proved to be so successful a few years back?   

Thank you for raising this, and I think that procurement is a very undervalued profession, given the huge difference that decisions made by procurement specialists can make to the local economy particularly. So, skills and capability are priority areas in the new approach that we're taking, and a new skills and training programme is going to be developed. Again, we'll do that in conjunction with stakeholders. The focus will be on not just procurement, but wider issues such as thinking innovatively, to take advantage of state aid rules and the procurement rules, to apply new approaches to procurement to achieve the economic benefits, create jobs and achieve well-being objectives across Wales. And in addition to this, we'll be providing new supporting guidance in key areas, such as social care and construction, to drive up consistency and capability in the commissioning and procurement of those vital areas of public service delivery. Again, we'll be looking particularly at risk assessment and management in terms of the work that we're doing to enhance capability within the sector. But I'm very clear that procurement professionals will be playing an absolutely key role in driving this agenda forward, and it was something that the First Minister set out very clearly in his leadership manifesto as one of his own priorities.   

Unfortunately, the environment Minister has had to leave the Chamber, but I had hoped to thank her, in her presence, and her officials for the way they worked with and Bangor University after I’d suggested that we should work together on a way of saving the Prince Madog ship, and to turn it into a research vessel for Wales on maritime issues. I understand that those discussions with the Minister’s officials and the university had been very positive indeed, but a decision had been made that procurement rules made it impossible to proceed with that project, which could have saved that hugely successful relationship that’s existed between the university and P&O over a number of years. And I know that the environment Minister, who is back in her seat now, agrees with me in this regard, but may I appeal on you as Minister to do everything you can to ensure that a spec can be put together that would mean that it would be possible to work within procurement rules to proceed with this important project, which would save the ship, the excellent research work and local jobs?

Thank you for raising this, and I'm very happy to meet with the Minister to explore how we might take this agenda forward. 

Within the economy and transport portfolio, the Minister is prioritising investment to support economic development in the Valleys through a variety of measures, such as the Valleys taskforce priorities, Tech Valleys and a number of transport projects.

We are at the moment enjoying historic record levels of investment to support and sustain the economy in the Valleys of south Wales. There's nearly £0.5 billion being spent around my constituency alone in dualling the A465 Heads of the Valleys road. But what's important is that we're able to maximise the value of these investments and we're able to have the maximum economic impact and create jobs and opportunities for people, particularly across the Heads of the Valleys. Would it be possible for the Minister and the Government to provide the National Assembly with a schedule of investments taking place? The Valleys taskforce has produced a delivery plan including strategic hubs and the Valleys regional park. It would be useful for all of us were we to have an update on the expenditure against those ambitions and targets and also to understand whether the Welsh Government intends to continue to maintain this level of investment.  

Thank you for raising that. Of course, the 2019-20 budget includes spending of £25 million over two years to develop the seven strategic hubs in the Valleys taskforce area—which of course you announced, so you'll be very, very familiar with—to create employment and investment opportunities. We've also allocated £7 million of capital over two years, so £3.5 million in each of the 2019-20 and 2020-21 years, to support the development of the Valleys regional park. This will be used to support the development of the discovery gateways across the Valleys and to deliver ambitions set out in the Valleys regional park prospectus, which was published in October 2018. I know it's the Deputy Minister for Economy and Transport's intention to bring forward a statement to the Assembly, which will encapsulate the Tech Valleys, the foundational economy and the Valleys taskforce work, and I'll ask him to bear in mind your comments this afternoon when he does that. 

It may well be that that statement's going to answer my question but I'm going to ask you just in case, because I was encouraged to hear from First Cymru that a prime example of co-ordinated bus timetables across counties could be found with the Maesteg-Cymmer service, where there are connections for onward journeys that are managed at Cymmer but start in a different county. The company's developed software recently to tell them of traffic delays so that they can contact drivers if one of the buses in that set-up is delayed and then other connecting buses can wait. The same company is talking about developing software to enable travellers to use one ticket in the Swansea valley and into Swansea even though more than one operator may be working on the particular route. I think we'd agree that mobility and connectivity is going to be pretty critical in regenerating Valleys economies and technologies enabling that. So, can you tell us a little bit more about how Welsh Government is using the budget allocation outside Tech Valleys, for general economic development, to speak with tech companies and persuade them that it's worth while setting up or expanding within the Valleys areas to become part of the circular economy in those areas, not just the foundational economy? Thank you. 

I'll certainly ask my colleague who is best placed to provide you with a fuller update on the work that he's undertaking there. I know that the Deputy Minister for Economy and Transport is extremely ambitious for the Tech Valleys and is pursuing a number of ideas that could bring together some very exciting approaches to technology and to the digital agenda within that area. I'm also very keen to explore what more we can do to harness the potential of digital to ensure that transport does become more accessible for people. I'll make sure that you have a fuller response to that.FootnoteLink 

The Welsh Government's 2017 tax policy framework established the principles that define our strategic approach to Welsh taxes. My 2019 tax policy work plan, published in February, sets out what we're doing in three key areas: tax development, tax administration, and engagement and capacity building.

Minister, tourism is very important in Wales and a very important part of our economy. Many countries have a tourism tax, which provides revenue to improve the tourism product and indeed help promote and market tourism effectively. Is Welsh Government—[Interruption.] There are also anxieties around the proposals, which I understand. So, is Welsh Government continuing to consider and undertake work on a potential tourism tax in Wales? 

Thank you for raising this. We're certainly working with the tourism sector and with local government to begin to explore the nature and possible impact of a tourism tax and the merits that have been brought forward for it, but also the concerns that the tourism sector has expressed about this idea. The consideration of a tourism tax has identified a number of policy issues that we need to give some further consideration to, including, for example, the relationship between a tourism tax and VAT on tourist accommodation and how local tourism taxes might intersect with other key policy areas, such as local taxes and existing regulatory pressures. But we continue to examine these issues over the longer term and to do so very much in partnership with the tourism sector and local authorities, whilst also keeping a keen eye on the developments that are happening elsewhere in the UK and further afield in this area.

And, finally, question 8, Alun Davies.

The chief economist’s report, published alongside the draft budget 2019-20, provides an analysis of Wales’s medium-term fiscal prospects. Both economic and fiscal prospects depend crucially on the form of exiting the EU.

Minister, we're aware that the chaos surrounding Brexit at present is already having a damaging impact on the budgets of the United Kingdom, but also on the perception of the United Kingdom in the wider world. We are also aware that there isn't a single form of Brexit that actually benefits the economy. There's no such thing as a jobs-first Brexit, there's no such thing as an economy-first Brexit. We know that Brexit, whatever form it takes, will have a detrimental impact on the economy of Wales and the economy of the United Kingdom. The question we ask ourselves is what sort of negative impact it will have. Now, that clearly will impact our ability to raise taxation, both in Wales and the United Kingdom. It would appear to me that it would be useful were the Welsh Government to be able to make a full statement on the potential impacts on public spending in Wales of Brexit, whatever form it takes.

Thank you. It is my intention to bring forward before the end of the summer term a statement on the outlook for public spending, and that will certainly be informed by the form that Brexit takes, but you're absolutely right to say that there is no Brexit that isn't harmful to the Welsh economy, and we set that out very clearly in the 'Securing Wales's Future' policy paper, but also in terms of the economic analysis, which we also published in December, regarding the potential ways in which we might leave the EU. And, actually, it's a fact that Wales might even be or is likely to be even worse hit than other parts of the UK. I was interested to read today Goldman Sachs saying £600 million a week has already been lost to the UK since the European referendum. I certainly didn't see that on the side of a bus.

Thank you to the Minister.

The next item, therefore, is questions to the Minister for International Relations and Welsh Language, and the first question will be answered by the Deputy Minister, and the question is from Dawn Bowden.

Amgueddfa Cymru, the National Museum, opens its doors freely at its seven sites throughout Wales. It leads the sector in reaching out and engaging with socially diverse audiences across Wales, and I am fully aware, having been schooled by Professor Gwyn Alf Williams, that everything of value in the industrial revolution and radical politics in Wales began in Merthyr. [Laughter.]

And it absolutely did, Minister, so thank you for that. And could I, just while I'm on my feet, just take the opportunity to thank you for being in Merthyr Tydfil recently to start the half marathon and for the Welsh Government grant funding—

Did he finish it?

—that allowed it? He didn't run it, he just started it.

Minister, many of us will have noticed the success that was achieved recently by putting Dippy the Dinosaur on a tour of museums around the UK, and I'm sure our own national galleries and museums similarly have exhibits that could be put on display in venues across the south Wales Valleys and beyond. Indeed, there are many exhibits currently held in storage that could be used that way, so to what extent can you direct our national galleries and museums to bring their exhibits to the people, using local attractions like Cyfarthfa Castle or the Redhouse in Merthyr, for example, to hopefully generate additional visitors and much-needed trade? For example, the Trevithick train is held in the maritime museum in Swansea and not in its home in Merthyr Tydfil, and I'm sure the people of Merthyr Tydfil would like to see it brought to Merthyr now and again for people there locally to have a look at. So, would you agree that using suitably chosen exhibits could be another practical strand of activities in our Valleys strategies?

Well, the answer to that must be 'yes'. I'm always encouraging the national museums and galleries to ensure that all aspects of the national collection that can be displayed across the country are displayed in that way. We have centres such as Oriel y Parc in St Davids, or some of the libraries—most recently I was at Haverfordwest opening a new library where there's a special relationship with the national museum and galleries, and, of course, the Welsh Government itself did invest, under the Sharing Treasures scheme, in Cyfarthfa Castle and I'm very interested in ensuring that we spend more on the various funds that we have—the capital funding through the transformation fund, for example, operated by my department—to make it possible to bring the various spaces in which we hold exhibitions to the right standard.

As regards the engine, I will—[Interruption.] As regards the engine, I will discuss with the National Museum directly because I am obsessed, as you know, with the history of steam and coal and the development of railways in Wales. I will discuss with the National Museum in what way we might be able to help you on this. Now, whether it's transferring the engine regularly or transferring it on a longer term relationship—.

Minister, can I commend you for trying to get as much of the national collection out there and seen as possible? Too much of it is held in storage and we should remember that these items are there to be seen and that is why they're in the collection in the first place. Will you join me in commending Dawn Bowden's work to promote knowledge of Merthyr's Jewish community, established in 1848, and most magnificently seen in the Gothic revival style synagogue, which was built in 1877? That synagogue's future is still in question, and I wonder if you would ask the National Museum to look at the new initiative that's been called—that is called, rather—the Historic Synagogues of Europe project, which is looking at industrial communities and other areas where there was a large Jewish population and ensuring that these historic treasures are preserved.

I'm very grateful to you for your support on our activity. I have a particular interest, of course, because of my own background and my own practice, in the history of all faith communities and particularly the role of the Jewish community in the development of Wales, the development of business and capitalism and investment within Wales, especially in key periods of the industrial revolution, and I will certainly make sure that I discuss this. There has been an initiative, and I have attended some meetings of faith groups specifically looking at the use of faith buildings for the conservation purposes that will then lead to them having a current value, and it seems to me that the key here, as always, is monuments are not there to be monuments. They're there to be used currently in order to interpret what happened there in the past.

Thank you very much, Mike, and thank you for posing the question in Welsh. I’m pleased to see that you will be one of the million by 2050. The Welsh Language Commissioner works with the banking sector to encourage them to treat Welsh and English on the basis of equality, and recently I wrote to the commissioner offering my officials' support and assistance in developing appropriate technology to assist them in providing Welsh language services, and this, of course, would include correspondence.

Thank you for your response.

The difficulty my daughter had in getting Lloyds Bank to accept the form in Welsh is well-documented. What discussion has the Minister had, or intends to have, with banks, building societies and insurance companies regarding accepting correspondence in Welsh, because otherwise we're going to have a two-tier system, where the public sector responds in Welsh and the private sector doesn't?

Well, I have had a meeting with the banks and the language commissioner, and, of course, this is the commissioner’s responsibility. But I do recognise, and I do think it’s important that we should all recognise, that correspondence is a key part of the service provided by banks. The commissioner has recently presented a seminar in London, because, very often, that’s where decisions are made, and I think that’s the way to put pressure on them and, of course, to understand that things are changing in the way that people use the banks. We need to ensure that people use technology and that that technology is available through the medium of Welsh. It’s interesting how Santander, for example, has developed software, where, once you use the Welsh language once, it remembers that you are a Welsh speaker, and I think we should be encouraging others to do likewise.

It makes very good business sense, of course, for any organisation to be able to interact with their customers in the language of their choice, and that obviously includes Welsh, especially given that we want to see the Welsh language promoted. Now, many businesses, both large and small, will have members of staff within their teams who are Welsh speaking, but who very infrequently use their Welsh-language skills on a day-to-day basis. What work is the Welsh Government doing to encourage the use of those skills more widely within businesses of all sizes across Wales in order that the opportunity to use Welsh with customers is something that is not hidden, if you like, in terms of these latent skills, but is there for all to see, so that customers can be encouraged to communicate through the medium of Welsh?

Well, of course, you will be aware that the Government has announced that 12 business officials across Wales are now going around small businesses, providing them with ideas on how they can use the Welsh language in the workplace. And also, of course, there is the Cymraeg Gwaith scheme, which is run by the National Centre for Learning Welsh. Thousands and thousands of people have already used the opportunity to learn Welsh in the workplace, and, of course, we are providing a very significant contribution for them to use the Welsh language. A lot of this is about increasing people’s confidence to use the Welsh language in the workplace. A lot of work is being done within the Government already, but what is good now is that that is now going out to the private sector as well.

Minister, thankfully, apart from a few training issues, large private sector organisations such as banks and utility companies already accept correspondence in both Wales's official languages. Do you agree with me that, if we are to encourage more private sector organisations to follow suit, we have to incentivise rather than penalise? Minister, what consideration has the Welsh Government given to offering Welsh-language tuition to such organisations and perhaps reductions in business rates to those organisations that encourage staff to develop their Welsh language skills?

Diolch yn fawr. I think you're absolutely right, there are—. It's really important that we use the carrot and the stick where possible. I am more in favour of the carrot, generally, than the stick, and that's why we have really contributed millions to an initiative to encourage people to take up learning the language in the workplace. But the other side of this, of course, is that Welsh speakers—if these private sector companies are providing that service through the medium of Welsh, then it's incumbent on us, as Welsh speakers—

—as Welsh speakers to ensure that we make use of those services. And that’s the problem at the moment. Very often, the services are available but very few Welsh speakers make use of them. We have to ensure that we, as Welsh speakers, do make use of those services when they are available and when that opportunity arises.

Questions now from the party spokespeople. Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Siân Gwenllian.

Thank you, Llywydd. Five years ago, I represented Gwynedd Council on the Cartrefi Cymunedol Gwynedd board, which is the housing association responsible for managing over 6,300 homes in Gwynedd. The majority of the staff of the organisation are Welsh speakers, the Welsh language is a language of the majority of the population served by this organisation, and the headquarters is in one of the strongholds of the Welsh language. The body is committed to maintaining the practice of administering internally through the medium of Welsh and making the ability to communicate through the medium of Welsh a key skill for all posts in order to implement that.

In 2014, the board decided, contrary to the advice of the Welsh Language Commissioner, and contrary to the language scheme of the body, to appoint to two senior posts within the organisation without requiring Welsh language skills, and that was by a recruitment agency from Leamington Spa. There is a consensus in favour of internal administration through the medium of Welsh in the public sector in Gwynedd, and it’s a matter of social justice that Welsh should be maintained as the language of work, and a living language, in this part of the world. As I saw all of that being under threat back in 2014, I resigned from the board.

Now, it’s become apparent that this body once again is recruiting senior officials, with the assistance of an agency from Birmingham this time. And the post of deputy chief executive, with a salary of £105,000, has been advertised without any requirement in terms of the ability to communicate through the medium of Welsh, only an 'understanding' of Welsh and the culture of north Wales, whatever that means.

You have three questions. Will you ask one of them relatively quickly, please?

Will you intervene to ensure that one of the cornerstones of your million Welsh speakers strategy, in terms of the workforce, is maintained, by sending a public letter to urge Cartrefi Cymunedol Gwynedd to reconsider?

I think this a very sensitive subject, and I think we need to be careful that we don’t close the opportunity to enable more people to have the opportunity to learn Welsh. I think that if there is a commitment to learn Welsh when they come into post, then we should be encouraging that as well. So, I do think that we have to take the opportunity to ensure that we don’t discriminate too much against people who sometimes perhaps have the correct skills in terms of developing housing, but don’t have the linguistic skills that you consider so essential.

The job description doesn’t even mention learning Welsh; it doesn’t mention that it’s desirable, it’s only an 'understanding'—however you interpret that. The truth of the matter is that you do have powers to impose standards on housing associations. And in 2015, following the original fallout, the Welsh Language Commissioner looked into the whole situation, and came to the conclusion—and I quote from the report drawn up at that time—that

'This case has clearly demonstrated that the current procedure of asking providers of social housing to implement voluntary Welsh Language Schemes is not sufficient'.

It was clear at that time, back in 2015, that the Government needed to introduce standards for housing associations. That was four years ago, and this delay means that we are in exactly the same situation now. The work of making draft regulations has been presented to you for housing associations. It is sitting on your desk. So, will you tell us today when we will have standards in place for housing associations?

I think we need to be very careful not to mix both issues. I think we will be moving forward with language schemes—or language standards—for housing associations. I can’t provide you with a clear timetable, because we are in the middle of Brexit and, unfortunately, that is taking up the legislative provision of the Government, and there’s not much left in terms of moving things forward on a legislative basis in other departments. However, we need to be careful that we don’t mix up between standards on language planning within housing associations and saying that everybody within those organisations has to speak Welsh. That is a very big step.

I’ve heard you talk of Brexit in the past as a reason for not recommencing the programme of introducing standards for new organisations. If anything, the threat of Brexit makes it even more of a priority to safeguard our language rights.

You published your action plan for a million Welsh speakers for 2019-20 a few days ago. And this was an opportunity for you to confirm your plans and the action that we should be looking forward to over the next 12 months now that the threat of the Welsh language Bill has been withdrawn. But unfortunately—and you’ve repeated that again today—you’ve shed no light in terms of a timetable for the introduction of more standards. Without doubt, what we’ve experienced today demonstrates that we need them.

I will ask you again: can you give us some idea when workers in Wales and the public can have an assurance about their rights in terms of the Welsh language, and will you commit, therefore, to publishing a timetable for imposing standards on housing associations, as well as all of the remaining sectors, during the summer term, once we’ve returned after recess?

Well, we do intend to proceed with bringing new standards forward. I had a word yesterday with the head of Dŵr Cymru, and made sure that he understands that we intend to move forward with standards in the water sector. That will be the first step and then we will look at other sectors after that.

Conservative spokesperson, Suzy Davies.

Thank you very much, Llywydd. Minister, in your 'Cymraeg 2050' action plan for 2019-20, which was launched last week, you make reference to recommendations made by an independent evaluation of the Cymraeg for Kids programme. I hope you will confirm that you will publish that review at some point soon. How do you anticipate that officials within Cymraeg for Kids will be involved with the developments and revision of the Welsh in education strategic plans, Welsh language fora at a local level, and regional planning for Mudiad Meithrin? How will the child’s voice be heard in this process in accordance with the convention on the rights of the child? May I also ask—? Is there a risk that some councils continue to rely on external groups such as the mentrau iaith in order to comply with their own responsibilities under standards?

Thank you. I think in terms of Cymraeg for Kids, we will be undertaking to understand if that has been a success. And I will undertake to bring the results to you once we have them.

You’re right in terms of the WESPs. What we are trying to do now is to move forward from the steps that we’ve taken in the past to concentrate on schools. There is a strong understanding now that there is a need for us to ensure that children, before they go to school—that we have a strategy for that. Because, of course, that is the way that we get children into school in the first place. I think it is difficult, in terms of very young children, to have the voice of the child in the development of these WESPs, but I want to assure you that we are going to redesign the WESPs activity to ensure that young children—we hope that we focus on that as a route that we would want the councils to follow in the future.

Thank you for that response. I do, of course, accept the fact that very young children can’t contribute much to this process, but, of course, they have parents too who will have their own ideas. And you haven’t answered the question either on how some councils are starting to rely on external groups to help them, as they would put it, with their internal duties and responsibilities. Because it appears to me that too many of them are doing that, rather than trying to generate more capacity within the councils themselves, within their workforce, in relation to the Welsh language.

Just to move on, the action plan also says that the Welsh in Business programme this year will focus on tourism, food and drink and retail, and Wales is often compared in a poor light with Scotland in terms of conveying our tourism offer clearly. We still undervalue our unique selling point, namely that we are a bilingual nation. It differentiates Wales from other parts of the UK in that regard. So, how will your Welsh in Business officials work with businesses that are part of our visitor economy to take advantage of that unique selling point for the benefit of Welsh-speaking communities and as an example to other non-Welsh-speaking tourist areas, where it could be difficult to persuade those in terms of what the Welsh language has to offer?

Thank you. You’re quite right; there is a need to be careful—just to answer the last question—in terms of relying too much on external groups to undertake things relating to the Welsh language. I do think it’s important that we all develop that ability internally, and, of course, councils can learn from each other. Some are further forward than others. We've seen, for example, that North Wales Police have done extraordinary work in developing the Welsh language.

In terms of Welsh in Business, yesterday I spoke with a cross-party group that were asking exactly the same question that you’ve asked now, namely how do we use the fact that we have a unique language to sell our country. What has happened already is that our branding has completely changed recently. We use the Welsh language as part of the international branding so that we do stand out. And, of course, officials who are working on Welsh in Business will be able to provide a lot of support to those who work in the tourism sector. For example, many of them are in restaurants and so forth. We can help them to translate their menus to ensure that they’re able to provide that service through the medium of Welsh, and that makes them stand out, and people like that. Of course, I think there are some areas where that is going to work better than others, but I hope that what we’ll see, as you referred to, is that other people understand and learn from those who are taking those initial steps.

Thank you for that response. I hope that some of this is starting to bear fruit, but I would like to see more progress made in future.

Last month, when I asked you about the Welsh Government translation helpline for small businesses, you told me that much work was being done in this area and that most of that work was being done by the Welsh Government. Your action plan states that there will be a marketing campaign to encourage businesses to use the translation helpline and that the Welsh Government—quote—will collaborate with the Welsh Language Commissioner on this. That’s a new detail since last month. Does that mean that the commissioner will help you to promote the helpline? Because I thought it was the mentrau iaith that were responsible for working with small businesses. Or are you considering transferring the whole responsibility for running this helpline to the commissioner’s office? If so, can you confirm where in the Welsh Language (Wales) Measure 2011 the commissioner has the power to provide this service, and how much additional funding will you provide to the new commissioner to meet this new responsibility?

At the moment, what we’re hoping to do is to ensure that that helpline starts within Welsh Government. Of course, that marketing campaign will start soon. But, of course, we do have a new commissioner who has started in post this week, and I do hope that the collaboration between Welsh Government and the commissioner’s office will provide us with an opportunity to ensure that we’re much clearer in terms of who does what in terms of business. I think there is room for us to try and see whether there is a way for us to work together better. I don’t think there’s anything in the Measure that stops the commissioner from entering this field, but what we’ve been concerned about in the past is the fact that the commissioner has been focusing too much, perhaps, on the standards, rather than promoting, and we would hope, in the future, that steps will be taken to go into this field more.

UKIP spokesperson, Gareth Bennett.

Diolch, Llywydd. Minister, we've had a couple of debates recently about rugby, which is always an interesting subject. However, the cricket season starts in a week's time, so today I wanted to turn my attention to that. Now, as you'll be aware, Glamorgan have encountered some financial difficulty in recent years. Of course, they agreed a deal with the English cricket board not to host test matches between 2020 and 2024 in exchange for a compensation package that has helped their financial position somewhat. But what can the Welsh Government do to ensure that international cricket is brought to Wales over the next five years and beyond?

Thank you very much for the question, and, indeed, I am a Glamorgan supporter, since I was first taken to St Helen's, not quite understanding what was going on there, about five years old at the time. What I will do is I will undertake to have a meeting with Cricket Wales and a discussion with the Glamorgan cricket club, and I will have an opportunity to do that fairly soon as the season is starting. But I will also undertake, if necessary, to meet formally with the England and Wales Cricket Board, in relation to the decisions made about test matches, because I appreciate the value of such events to Cardiff and the important status of Sophia Gardens as the national home of cricket in Wales.

Yes. Thanks very much for that commitment, Minister, and I'm sure meeting with the English cricket board would be a good idea, and I look forward to a positive outcome from that.

I note that, in 2018-19, the Welsh Government allocated £600,000 to Cricket Wales to support both community and high-performance cricket across Wales. Of course, the popularity of cricket has grown amongst people of all ages in recent years, but particularly amongst young people. I see from Cricket Wales's board minutes that a number of the board members have been working with Glamorgan cricket club to progress various initiatives, with the focus on increasing the number of people involved in cricket from the current figure of 20,000 to 40,000, which is an ambitious target. Can you tell us a little more about what Cricket Wales is doing to help develop the sport at grass-roots level, and do you think this target of doubling the number of people involved in cricket can be achieved?

Well, I hope it can. Obviously, it's a matter of timescale, but, again, I will ensure that, in my future discussions with Cricket Wales this season, I will ask them for a clearer indication of the likely implementation of such a target. As far as I'm concerned, it's always important to increase the spread of interest in sport. We have our major sports, which are no longer limited to the traditional seasons in terms of football and rugby football and netball, which is an increasingly important sport, and I look forward very much this week to the international women's football event, in which I shall be supporting the Welsh women's team at Rodney Parade in Newport, which has become their traditional venue. But I will make sure that, when I have these discussions, I will ensure that the role of cricket, and indeed the role of, potentially, other summer sports, will be matters that I will discuss, and through Sport Wales, of course.

Yes, of course. It's important to foster interest in many sports, and I'm sure we all wish the Welsh women's team well in their endeavours.

The ECB have recently announced a new city-based T20 competition, if I can return to the cricket subject. It is good to see that Cardiff is one of the host venues. One of the problems I think Glamorgan have in appealing to people from all across Wales, though, is that the majority of the games are played now at Sophia Gardens in Cardiff. I know that there are efforts by Glamorgan to take games around the country. They do have their outgrounds in St Helen's, where, of course, you began watching Glamorgan, as you stated earlier, and also Colwyn Bay, where they play county games. What do you think the Welsh Government can do to ensure that cricket in Wales is brought to a wider audience, not just in terms of numbers, but geographically as well?

I certainly endorse the importance of geographical spread, and, again, clearly, I am a regular attender when there are Glamorgan matches at Llandrillo-yn-Rhos, but I would be the first to admit that that is not an adequate ground, because the boundary, unfortunately, is a bit close to the wicket, to the pitch. But I will ensure that those issues are discussed when I have my discussions with Glamorgan, and I'll take some further advice as to what seems to be commercially possible, without making any immediate commitments as to how we should do that. But, obviously, the geographical distribution of cricket, as indeed the distribution of other sports in the north, brings back the whole question of the future of Parc Eirias, because there are issues here where I think we are missing out on a large audience in the north of Wales, but also a substantial audience that would love to travel from the north-west of England into north Wales for their sport venues.

I am delighted that Wales for Africa is within my portfolio and that so many people are actively engaged in making Wales and the world a better place. The programme will form a key component of the international strategy consultation. I'm considering a response to the international strategy from the voluntary sector on how we can drive forward with this aspect of the Welsh Government's work.

Thanks for that response, Minister. I very much agree, and I think there's widespread agreement across the Chamber that this is a very worthwhile programme that delivers great benefits for sub-Saharan Africa and, indeed, for Wales. One important aspect of it is the community-to-community links. I think we have a very impressive number of those in Wales, but obviously they could be added to, Minister, and the existing ones could be deepened and strengthened. So, given the importance of opening up Wales to the world and the world to Wales, and the significant part that these links play within that ambition, will you look at improving the availability of resources, of funding, to build the number of links and, as I said, strengthen and deepen those that currently exist?

Well, it's clear that the most successful strategies have been ones where actually it is about community to community, and this is a great example where actually people are just getting on with it, I think. PONT is a great example of that; some of the work that's done in Lesotho really demonstrates how building those communities and people-to-people relationships really gives a depth to the Wales for Africa programme.

One of the things that we need to do is to just have much greater clarity on who is doing what, where, so I've already commissioned a piece of work to see how we map that, so that we're all aware of what's going on before we start. You're absolutely right—resources are always going to be an issue here, but what's clear is, with the very small resources we are giving to this, they are having a major impact. But we can also be creative in some of the other ways that we help. So, the Minister for Environment, Energy and Rural Affairs, for example, recently donated a fisheries protection vessel to the Government of Liberia. It's a real issue there—how do people protect their fishing stocks—and I think that was a great contribution we can give. It wasn't money, but it was a boat, and we did that with the World Bank and with other organisations. I think we can be really proud of some of the work we're doing.

I think I'm fast becoming my party's Africa champion, Minister. I seem to always be asking you about Africa or Love Zimbabwe in my questions to you. Can I concur with the comments that John Griffiths has just made? As you know, I do have links with the Love Zimbabwe charity, which has strong links with the town of Abergavenny. As I told you last week, Martha Holman, one of the volunteers, has her British citizenship ceremony tomorrow, actually, in Usk. So, I'm sure you'd like to join me in extending good wishes to her.

We know the difficulties that Zimbabwe is currently experiencing, and also the wider southern African area following the recent storm Idai. This Assembly, as you said, has a reputation for its links with Africa, dating back to the first Assembly, when we established those links with Lesotho. Will you and the Presiding Officer and Deputy Presiding Officer ensure that the importance of those links between the people of Wales and the people of Africa are centre stage at this year's—next month's—celebration of the 20 years of devolution, which I know is going to be happening here and elsewhere, to make sure that, in the future, links between Wales and Africa are cemented, because I think that our support for the people of Africa is very much appreciated?

Thank you. I think that's an excellent idea, and it's one I hope that the Deputy Presiding Officer will pass on—that message that perhaps it would be a good thing to celebrate the Wales-Africa links in those celebrations of 20 years of devolution.

I would love to welcome Martha as a citizen of Wales. We are delighted to have her. If everybody made the kind of contribution that she's made to her community we'd be much better off as a nation. We are really thrilled to have her, and anyone who can pass those citizenship tests really deserves to be a member of our nation. They really are quite tough. So, welcome to her, to be a Welsh Zimbabwean. We're very proud to have her.

I think it is also essential to request that the people of Wales stand in solidarity at this time with the people in southern Africa who are affected by cyclone Idai. It's been a colossal and damaging effect on the economy, on lives, on the communities there, and if anyone could contribute, that's certainly something that we would encourage them to do.

Minister, I'm very glad that you mention PONT and the work done by people in my constituency, particularly people such as Dr Geoff Lloyd, who has done so much on health in places like Uganda. And I wonder if you're aware of the proposal emerging from those who are involved in the Wales for Africa Health Links network, which suggests that Wales could adopt 3 million people in sub-Saharan Africa and provide universal health coverage for them through the existing network. Now, this is a really exciting proposal, not only using the existing network and existing resources and so on, but it would extend the actual coverage of the programme and would be a real tribute to the anniversary of the Wales for Africa programme. 

Thank you. I think the work that PONT has done over the years is really quite phenomenal and so many people have been engaged with it from the bottom up. I'm aware of the work and the suggestions that have been made in terms of that link and the possibility of seeing how much further we can push the health links in particular. I've had a meeting with the deputy health Minister today to see whether there is any scope for us to push this further. So, we need to think and to scope out if there are any possibilities. In principle, I'd love to see that develop a bit further. Of course, we're under severe financial constraints at the moment, but if there is a possibility, in particular within the health sector, then I would like to see how we can explore those further.

Diolch yn fawr. I announced my intentions to produce a new strategy communicating our international vision for Wales in January. We are still in the drafting stages of this work, and I expect to put a draft to Cabinet in early May, with a final document ready for publication before the summer.

Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer. Well, in that case, I'm delighted to have caught you drafting the strategy. That's certainly something to be welcomed. We're all aware of the disaster of Brexit and the impact that's having on the standing of the United Kingdom across the world. It's important, therefore, that the Welsh Government renews its work to promote Wales as a place to do business and a place where we can create new business links across different countries. We know also that there's a significant investment taking place in the Heads of the Valleys and a Valleys programme that looks at promoting the Valleys as a place to invest and a place to do business. Can you, Minister, ensure that the Valleys and the Heads of the Valleys are central to your work in terms of international relations? Promoting the Heads of the Valleys and the whole of the Valleys as places where we can create businesses, create new business activity, I hope, will be central to the Welsh Government's wider vision of an international relations strategy.

Thank you, and you're absolutely right that, actually, the fact that we have no idea what is going to happen in terms of our relationship with Europe is making it extremely difficult to draft an international strategy, because there would be fundamental difference depending on where we end up. If we leave the European Union, and in particular if we leave with no deal, then we need to really work very, very hard to rebuild those relationships with our continental colleagues where we have similar values and we have 60 per cent of our trade and goods going to them. Of course, we would have to reinforce that. If we don't end up there and we somehow or other miraculously finish up as a part of the single market, then we will adjust our strategy as a result. So, it is difficult at the moment to know exactly how to develop the strategy.

But the one thing I can tell you is that all this Brexit nonsense is making it much more difficult for us to land inward investment into Wales. When people say they're interested in investing, the question they ask is, 'Can I export to that 500 million people market on your neighbouring continent?' And the answer at the moment is, 'We're not sure.' Now, that is not the basis for investment. So, of course, we're really concerned about that.

You will be aware that, over the years, there have been over 100 individual investments to the Heads of the Valleys region, where we've safeguarded more than about 16,000 jobs over the years, but I think fundamental to what we need to do—because you have got to ask in this global society why people are going where—I think one of the things we need to do is to make sure that we upskill the people in the Valleys so that we are offering a skilled workforce, which will really attract businesses to those areas. So, I think that's a fundamental piece of this jigsaw.

Thank you very much. I meet regularly with Ministers to discuss their contribution to the aim of 1 million Welsh speakers. In September, I had a meeting with the Minister for Children, Older People and Social Care, as was, to discuss the contribution to this particular aim.

Diolch. Attending Ti a Fi, Mudiad Meithrin or Welsh-medium Flying Start is, I believe, the best way to prepare children, especially those from non-Welsh-speaking families, for Welsh-medium education. What is the Minister doing to ensure that children are given equal access to Welsh-medium and English-medium Flying Start? That is, both are offered and there is no later start date for Welsh-medium Flying Start than for English.

Well, it is important that what we offer, that we get this right right at the beginning, because it will determine very often where children end up. So, you're absolutely right: we need to make sure that there is an equal offer. I know that Dechrau Disglair is the local authority's dedicated Welsh-medium Flying Start childcare setting in the Swansea area. Of course, what we're doing now is we're extending our offer in terms of childcare, which of course is available in Welsh, and that will give more opportunities to those parents who want to send their children to Welsh language settings. I'd be grateful if you have any details of where there has not been an equality in terms of Flying Start in terms of which language people are taught in. I'd be grateful to hear that and I can pass that on to my officials. 

Thank you for that question. As we celebrate the twenty-fifth anniversary of National Lottery, I'm delighted to give you the figures that National Lottery players have supported over 50,000 projects across Wales, to the tune of £1.75 billion of investment. As part of my role as Minister, I have oversight of the National Lottery spend, and therefore have regular discussions with National Lottery about the direction of travel and the direction of spend.

Thank you very much, Minister. A recent report from the House of Lords, which you happen to be a Member of, warned of the potential danger that Brexit could make arts funding more London centric. Concerns have been raised about the fairness of the location of lottery funding and that some parts of London have received 10 times more money per head of the population than in Wales. In London, they're having 10 times more per person, per head, than in Wales. Minister, what discussions have you had with the Arts Council for Wales and Camelot about reducing this imbalance in funding in light of the findings of your House of Lords report?

Well, I have to disagree with my colleagues in the upper House. Clearly, I'm not a regular attender and neither is my colleague—it is rather ironic that we have two Members of the House of Lords in one department in this Assembly. The answer is that I don't think it is possible really to compare public spending in London through lottery funds with other parts of the United Kingdom—and clearly he knows London as much as I do—partly because you have there the headquarters of many organisations, you also have a massive diversity of artistic and other activities, and other lottery potential candidate activities. Therefore, what I have always sought to do is to ensure that the lottery spend in Wales reflects the proportion of applications that is made and that that is equitable within Wales. I have no control over the lottery spending, as such; I have oversight of the way it is spent in Wales. But I will ask for further discussion with the lottery in Wales in relation to the spend at the UK level, with particular reference to your question, which I'm grateful to receive. 

And finally, question 7, Huw Irranca-Davies.

I've met with stakeholders and with fellow Ministers to discuss how Wales's strengths can be promoted more widely and, through our award-winning Wales brand, we're focusing on telling the Wales story for businesses that start, grow and invest here, and these stories are the foundation of our marketing programme. 

I thank the Minister. I was pleased to attend and speak last week at an event organised by the Royal Society and the Learned Society of Wales on the matter of the challenges and opportunities for research and development and innovation in Wales. One of the many aspects we considered were the Reid recommendations, including the need to increase the visibility and influence of Welsh research by creating a new Welsh research and innovation London office to act on behalf of the Welsh Government and Welsh Ministers in the interests of the Welsh research and innovation community, but also to identify and promote funding opportunities arising at a UK and international level, to attract talent and investment into the Welsh research and innovation community from the rest of the UK and internationally, and, of course, to increase the visibility of Welsh research and innovation outside of Wales.

So, Minister, in a post-Brexit situation where we'll face the disappearance of EU funding streams and the advent of a more competitive bid process funding landscape for R&D and innovation in the UK, it'll be crucial for us to punch above our weight in quality and in quantum. So, in her role, what can the Minister do, alongside the Minister for Education, to attract research and development and innovation funding and expertise to Wales?

Well, I think the Member's right to emphasise the point that, actually, we've gained quite significantly from Horizon in the past, and I haven't given up yet. I think there's a real opportunity for us to continue to try and engage with that programme. The nonsense of the situation is that, in the past, for the £5 billion we've put in the programme, we've got £8 billion out, as the UK. And in Wales we've had £100 million just recently from the programme—over 2,800 different collaborations across the continent. So we shouldn't give up on that. There's a real opportunity for us to continue to push on that. 

I've met a couple of times since my appointment with the Chief Scientific Adviser for Wales, and you're absolutely right, he emphasises that the quality of the work in Wales is superior, very often, to much of what is done elsewhere, and we need to talk about it and sing about it. I am delighted to announce that we have had a recent appointment of a London based head of innovation and research engagement officer, who will now be based in that London office. And, of course, we have other programmes, like the Sêr Cymru programme. But part of the international strategy will be about raising the visibility of what we're doing in those areas internationally. 

Thank you very much, Minister. 

Item 3 on the agenda is questions to the Assembly Commission, and the first question this afternoon will be answered by the Llywydd. Janet Finch-Saunders. 

The Assembly’s outreach service engages with citizens from all parts of Wales, and of all ages and backgrounds, to increase levels of understanding and interest in the Assembly’s work and to involve people in the work of committees. The service engages with schools, colleges, youth groups, community groups, businesses, public bodies, representative bodies, unions and a wide range of civic society organisations. The team also manages the Assembly’s presence at summer shows and other events. More recently, of course, our outreach work includes supporting the Welsh Youth Parliament’s activities.

Thank you, Presiding Officer. I'm really pleased to endorse the work they do. I know they work exceptionally hard. Of course, here, we have the honour of drafting, debating and passing legislation that does impact on our own constituents across the length and breadth of Wales.

I do have some minor concerns, and I thought I'd raise them here, as to how we, as Members, can be kept better informed of the engagement within our constituencies. This has arisen at committees. Quite often, the outreach team will engage within our own constituencies, and sometimes I'm told about it by constituents, but I'd like to see a better connection, really, between the work they do in our constituencies, because we are elected Members, and how we could, perhaps, work more closely with them. We may be able to attend an event where they may be doing some work, so we could go along to support them. Could that, possibly, be a consideration going forward, that when the outreach team are present within our own constituencies that, perhaps, as we do out of courtesy when Ministers are actually attending our constituencies, perhaps we could be informed and we could, as I say, either support them or at least we'd be aware and there would be a better join-up between us and them?

Thank you for the question, and I think the Member raises an interesting point. I know it's happened to me, where work by committees has happened in my constituency that I wasn't aware of. It is work that happens in every constituency in Wales—in every region of Wales. Perhaps it would be worth us looking at whether it's possible to create a system that would at least inform Members here of what work is happening in their constituencies and regions. Therefore, we will look at whether that is practically possible to do, but, certainly, I think it is a valuable question to ask.

Thank you. Question 2 and question 3 will be answered by Commissioner David Rowlands. Question 2, Huw Irranca-Davies.

I thank the Assembly Member for his question. The Assembly’s website provides information on how to reach the Senedd via a variety of travel modes, including public transport, walking and cycling.

There are publicly accessible cycle racks in close proximity to the Senedd, outside both Tŷ Hywel and the Pierhead. We have met with the nextbike scheme to help facilitate the installation of a docking station in Cardiff Bay and we were pleased that one was recently installed nearby. The Assembly has been actively involved in the public services board for healthy travel in Cardiff. We're also very aware of the commitment contained in the new rail franchise to extend facilities for bike use, including more cycle capacity once the new rolling stock comes online, and we will be keeping a close watch on how this may, hopefully, have a positive impact on cycle use to the Assembly estate.

I thank David very much for that really comprehensive answer. I have to say that the Assembly is leading the way very much here in terms of active travel, but we could always do more, so I will be popping up regularly as a critical friend. I want to ask you, David, whether you have given any consideration, or whether you would give consideration, to the use of alternatives to heavy-duty trucks coming through the main security entrance, which cause a bit of a tailback.

There was an interesting moment the other day when a cyclist friend of mine was coming in, the articulated van pulled up and the security guards went through and did their thorough search to find that there was just one little box sitting in the middle of the Luton van that had to be driven into the estate and around. So, would he investigate the use—leading the way again, within the Senedd—of things such as cargo bikes or electric cargo bikes, which are available now in Cardiff, which could, indeed, deliver smaller packages? It's a question of leadership again. You've shown us that you're willing to lead, so would you explore that possibility?

As with all suggestions coming from Assembly Members, we welcome those suggestions that will help us make access to the Assembly safer as well as being much more accessible.

Just to broaden it out, just a little, on your question earlier, we note and welcome that the local authority, which, of course, is responsible for the local infrastructure with regard to bikes, has plans for five new cycle tracks, including one that runs from the city centre to the bay. We provide extensive facilities, as you know from your last question, to promote active travel, including those for cycling, walking, and latterly, of course, we've introduced electric vehicle charging points. We continue to work with Sustrans to raise awareness amongst Assembly staff of the availability of sustainable travel routes both across the city and Wales in general. I know the Member for Ogmore takes a keen interest in the subject of active travel and is also an advocate of it and, indeed, leads by example, I think. But can I assure him that the Commission has a firm commitment to provide the best possible facilities for cyclists on the Assembly estate and we will continue to announce those facilities as space and opportunity permits?

If you could just give me two seconds to catch up with my paperwork on this, please.

The Commission is fully committed to ensuring access to the Assembly estate for disabled people and this is not confined just to wheelchair accessibility but also to other disabilities, such as those for the visibly impaired and those with autism. We continually review accessibility to all buildings and equality impact assessments are made before any refurbishment or improvements are carried out. We are, of course, compliant with legislation and also follow best practice guidelines.

I'm grateful to the Commissioner for his answer. It is with some regret that I have to raise a concern with him this afternoon. I recently had a disabled visitor for whom we had booked, weeks in advance, a car parking space. She's not an user of a wheelchair but she has a mobility impairment. When she arrived to take up this opportunity the space was not available to her, she was not able to park and this was even more unfortunate since she was attending the Assembly to attend the cross-party group on human rights. I'm not going to name the individual or refer to the date today, that would not be fair; I will write separately to the Commissioner in that regard. But can I ask that the Commission undertake a review of their policies with regard to the use of disabled parking spaces, to ensure that there are enough of them, to ensure that the systems—? I should emphasise that I've checked that the fault is not with my members of staff. I have checked before raising this with you that the booking was properly made.

I'm raising this here rather than writing about the one-off incident because the person concerned told me that this is not the first time that she has had this experience in this building, and if it has happened to her it may very well have happened to others. So, I would be grateful—I will write to you with the individual case so that you can look at that, but I would be very grateful if you would, as a Commission, investigate the provision of these spaces to ensure that this doesn't happen to any of our fellow disabled citizens again. I know that that would be very much what you as a Commission would wish.  

Again, I thank the Member for bringing those matters to the Commission and I can assure you that when we get more extensive information from you, we will fully investigate that. You know that we do provide disabled parking in the Senedd and the Tŷ Hywel car park, but we could obviously review those to see if they're adequate now. I have to say, the Senedd building, from its inception, was designed for disabled people. But, of course, things do move on and we will more than welcome some additional facilities if we possibly can. 

Question 4 is to be answered by the Llywydd. Jenny Rathbone. 

The Commission has no means to influence the allocation of the Assembly Members' pension scheme’s assets. The power to invest the scheme’s assets sits entirely with the pension board, which is independent of the Commission. The pension board as a whole will decide where to invest those assets, based on advice received from the board’s investment advisers. 

For Commission staff, the civil service pension scheme is an unfunded scheme and therefore has no assets to invest. Benefits are paid from tax revenues rather than from assets set aside to pay them.

Thank you for that. I just wondered what correspondence you have with the independent remuneration board about the investment strategy you wish them to pursue in relation to the Assembly Members' pension fund, because it seems to me it's impossible for us to encourage local authorities to disinvest from fossil fuels, in line with the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015, unless we put our own house in order. There must have been some correspondence, surely, in relation to that, even though I appreciate that Assembly Members and the Commission have no actual input into where investments are made.

Well, this is the responsibility of the pension board, not the remuneration board, and we do elect representatives from our midst, current AMs and former AMs, to represent and sit on the pension board and it's the pension board's independent decision, then, to look at its investment strategy. I'm not sure whether any of the Members present in the Chamber at the moment are members of the pension board, but that information is available to you should you seek to write to the pension board directly.

May I ask, therefore—? Clearly it's not a decision that the Commission can make, but I'm sure that the Commission has a view on this issue, or I'd like to think at least that the Commission has a view on the issue. Would the Commission be willing to co-ordinate correspondence from all Assembly Members, which they could co-sign, to the pension board, asking them to look at this and to look at the issue as a matter of urgency?

Well, the pension board, as I've said, is independent of the Commission, and we don't have responsibility and neither do we have a policy decision on this. It's not a matter that we have looked at, because the responsibility lies somewhere else.

As I've said, there are representatives from this Assembly on the pension board. I don't know their names currently, to name them here publicly, but I would think that it is an issue for every party, for every Member here, to be corresponding with the pension board directly themselves to draw their attention to these issues, which clearly are of interest and concern to Members. It's been raised during the Commission's questions this afternoon and also during questions to the finance Minister earlier this afternoon. So, may I encourage you all to consider writing directly to the pension board?

Thank you very much. Thank you, Llywydd.

Item 4 is topical questions. The first topical question this afternoon is from Lynne Neagle, to be answered by the Minister for Health and Social Services. Lynne.

Thank you for the question. Hospitalisation is increasingly seen as a last resort and more young people now receive their care within their local community. To help meet the needs of young people who require in-patient care, we’ve invested £42 million in dedicated child and adolescent mental health service provision in Wales, leading to a reduction in those sent out of area.

The position on access was set out in my letter to the Chair of the Children, Young People and Education Committee on 25 February. A further update is due imminently to the Health, Social Care and Sport Committee, in response to the Chair of that committee’s letter of 7 March.

Thank you, Minister. I am deeply concerned that restrictions continue to be necessary at both CAMHS in-patient units in Wales, meaning that they are unable to care for young people who are at risk of suicide or self-harm. You will be aware that Healthcare Inspectorate Wales has again called for action on this in their report on services for children and young people, published just last week, and in doing so have emphasised that they’ve been raising these concerns since as long ago as 2013. My committee has been raising this with Welsh Government as far back as our ‘Mind over matter’ report last year.

I do understand that many more young people are now treated by teams in the community, but there are nevertheless those who do need admission to an in-patient unit. And it cannot be right that some of our most vulnerable young people have to be placed out of Wales, far more their families and support. It also raises serious questions about how we effectively ensure the quality and safety of such placements, which can be hundreds of miles away.

Minister, when can we expect our in-patient units to be in a position to admit young people at risk of suicide or self-harm? What assurances can you give in the meantime that there are robust and comprehensive processes in place for ensuring any out-of-Wales placements are safe and high quality? And, finally, given that predicting the risk of suicide is not an exact science, especially in a young person, what assurances can you give that a young patient who has not been identified as high risk will receive safe care in our CAMHS in-patient units?

Thank you for the follow-up questions. I do recognise the importance and the seriousness of this matter. Because we're not able to have full capacity, as we would otherwise want to, it's a combination of different factors in the north Wales unit compared to south Wales, but we think there are single figures of children and young people who have been placed outside of Wales because of those restrictions. So, single figures are small, but for each person there's a family and a context, and that's not the sort of care and the location of care that we want to be able to provide. It's not what the investment we've made and the capital is supposed to provide either.

On Tŷ Llidiard, specifically, that you mention, you'll be aware that we do need to make improvements to the physical estate. Part of that work has been completed; the rest of that work is due to be completed within the year 2019-20. I'll happily write to the Member and both committees that take an interest in this to give a clearer indication of when that work should be completed.

On your broader point about—. If you like, two slightly different points. One on how we assure ourselves about the quality of care out of area and out of country: that is a real challenge and that's a challenge for the commissioners and the framework that is provided and that's monitored through a quality assurance and improvement service. They undertake site audits and monitor performance, and the Welsh Health Specialised Services Committee receive regular monthly returns from the two Welsh units that are currently providing care.

So, again, I recognise the point you make that you cannot always tell if someone is having suicidal thoughts. So, the challenge is about making sure that the quality of care is appropriate. That's part of the challenge about why we're not admitting some people into those units now where that is a known risk. But that's why there is regular reporting back to WHSSC, to the quality team, whilst there is an escalation process in place. And that is an enhanced escalation process—that is not the normal way of operating because we do have concerns about our capacity to safely manage care. It is not the position that I or anyone else would want us to be in. I will provide the updates I've indicated to Members and specifically to the committees, and I'll outline in more detail in my letter that I will be sending to the health committee—I'll make sure a copy goes to the children and young people's committee, because I recognise both subject committees are maintaining a direct interest in this matter—and will continue to do so until we're in a different position.

Thank you, Minister, for your statement. I'm delighted that Lynne Neagle has brought this issue up once again in this Chamber this afternoon, because, as you will know, there is a child and adolescent mental health unit with in-patient capacity in my own constituency, in the town of Abergele. It was built almost 10 years ago now, back in 2009, with a capacity of 18 beds, which was to serve the north Wales area, and, unfortunately, those beds have never been fully occupied or fully opened, and we still face individuals being sent many hundreds of miles away from north Wales when only 12 of the beds are currently commissioned at our own flagship unit.

Now, I'm sure that more people could benefit from this facility if it were up to full capacity in terms of its bed use. I'm sure there would be people who would be sent in to north Wales from outside of the north Wales area as well in order to occupy those beds if they were available. And I wonder whether you could give us an update today on what action is being taken by the Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board to make sure that there are sufficient beds in north Wales for the young people who might need in-patient facilities in our own region. I accept there will sometimes be specialist cases where there's a need for some very specialist provision that cannot be accommodated in one of these more generalised units. I understand and accept that that might be the case from time to time, but, clearly, there are young people who could benefit from these facilities in Wales who are currently being sent over the border to England. We can easily monitor the quality and effectiveness of the care. There isn't the problem with the commissioners having to face the challenge of monitoring something hundreds of miles away. This is within Wales, this is within the Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board. So, can I ask, will you be working with the health board in north Wales to increase the in-patient capacity at Abergele and what work is being done within the health board to recruit, if necessary, the extra health professionals in order to man those additional beds, should you be planning to open them?

There are two points there that I think I should respond to. The first is the point about the numbers of beds that we have. We're at commissioned capacity in Tŷ Llidiard. We're below commissioned capacity—and, actually, we're commissioning 12 of those potential 18 beds—in north Wales. That's partly about the complexity and the space needed, but it is also, partly, about staff. And so there are 10 beds commissioned and in use, and they have been able to move up to 12; they had to move back down to 10, because of challenges about recruiting staff to work permanently in the facility, so I recognise that staffing is an issue. And resource isn't a problem—it's not that the health board are refusing to put staff in or holding open the vacancies; it's about our ability to recruit people into the service. And so we're operating 10 beds because it's safe to do so.

The further challenge then is, I guess, about the number of commissioned beds in any event. Actually, at present, the guidance from the Royal College of Psychiatrists actually shows that we are above the level of population to beds that they suggest we have across the country. But, in terms of reviewing our capacity, then of course we'll be informed by the level of need, and to see how many people could be served. Because, as I said, I recognise that, because we have not been able to safely staff all of the beds that we have commissioned, single figures of children and young people from Wales have gone out of the country when they could otherwise have been in those facilities within NHS Wales. So, it is a real issue for all of those children and young people and their families, and so, yes, I'm determined to provide an update that you and other Members will expect—and the undertakings I've given to Lynne Neagle about making sure that both subject committees are kept informed of progress.

Can I associate myself with everything that Lynne Neagle has said, and Darren Millar, about the seriousness of the situation? The Minister says that the current level of capacity reflects the level of what we would expect from population, but, clearly, it doesn't reflect the level of need, if we continually have, for that very small number of young people, accommodation facilities outside Wales. Given that the Minister has told us that we think we're talking in single figures here, is there more that the Minister can do to increase the capacity and to ensure that the capacity is in the correct locations, as well as being safely staffed? Does the Minister agree with me that young people should only be being treated with these serious conditions outside Wales if their condition requires it—if their condition is so unusual that we simply could not—not only that we cannot at present, but that we simply could not—meaningfully provide for that very particular need within our own country? And, accepting everything that he's said today, that he will take steps to try to address this, there is a slight sense that we have, as Lynne Neagle said, been raising these issues for a number of years. But, if we are still in a situation where young people are being treated outside Wales—even if we all accept that that isn't what we want to see—what further steps can the Minister take to ensure that young people being treated outside Wales are appropriately monitored, that we know that their care reaches the standards that we here in Wales expect, and that they are regularly visited by appropriate professionals, as well as by their families, to make sure that they are as safe and as comfortable and, I would say, as happy as they possibly can be?

I think there were two questions there. In relation to the second one, about the model and the quality of placements outside of Wales, I think I dealt with that in response to questions asked by Lynne Neagle in her supplementary. And I'll certainly be addressing that to provide a written level of detail to the two committees, as I've indicated in the undertakings I've given in response to Lynne Neagle's questions.

On your other question, about capacity and need, I'm happy to give her—and all Members—the assurance that my expectation is that we should put ourselves into a position where NHS Wales only helps to place children and young people outside of Wales where it's their need that drives that, rather than capacity. And so we will, of course, need to look at the capacity that we have and to see that that is matching need. The guidance—it is guidance, as opposed to a hard-and-fast rule from the royal college—suggests that we have sufficient capacity, if we're able to sufficiently staff those. And it's actually north Wales where there's more of an issue about appropriate staffing. We will then be able to—with the commissioned capacity in Tŷ Llidiard, we expect that staffing isn't going to be a concern—make sure that all those beds are properly and safely staffed. So, I'm happy to confirm that this is not a matter of simply tolerating forever and a day the fact that people are being placed outside of Wales when it's not their care needs that drive that placement.

Minister, I think that many Members in this Chamber would have dealt with often distressing cases involving this particular aspect of care and we're talking about some of the most vulnerable young people in society. I've had experience of cases where the treatment plan has not, really, been very successful after in-patient admission and, in fact, repeat admissions have occurred and this is very, very disruptive. Also, the way parents and carers are involved in the treatment plans can sometimes leave something to be desired. When patients are exhibiting these very distressing symptoms, we really do need to ensure that, when the patients leave in-patient care, they're still getting very specialist treatment—intensive treatment—and particularly that the diagnostic work that needs to be done is done effectively, because, sometimes, there's real doubt as to the best pathway for these often very troubled individuals under great distress.

I recognise completely the points that the Member makes. I, as a constituency Member, have had casework and met families who are in a very, very difficult position and haven't felt well supported by the system. So, we have not just put resource—financial resource and more staffing—into the broad CAMHS service, but, of course, this goes into our earlier prevention and intervention work, as well as not just the response to 'Mind over matter', but actually the point about what support is available, after admission, for those people who have been in in-patient care.

The Healthcare Inspectorate Wales thematic report—the positive news is that, overall, they found that young people had predominantly good experiences of care, with staff who were compassionate and providing dignified and person-centred care. But that highlights again that it's possible and it's also why there's such a need for improvement for those people where we don't think that has happened and why I know that you'll have seen, and other Members will have seen, examples of where families do not feel that that has happened. So, that's work that carries on, not just in conversations between the Government and health boards, but actually between the health service and people who are using the service to understand whether we're actually meeting our aspirations. 

If the Member has individual examples of where families do not believe that has happened, I would always be interested in receiving details of those to actually be able to take them up directly with that part of the health service.

In relation to the case of Claire Greaves—the tragic case—this was obviously a case of anorexia as well as personality disorder from an early age. My interest is in trying to understand, as part of the eating disorders review, whether you are considering a discussion, a wider discussion, about an eating disorders in-patient unit or units in Wales, not directly as a consequence of this, but as a consequence of the calls, over many years, by patients and carers.

When Mark Drakeford, the current First Minister, was the health Minister, he said that he was intent on repatriating many of the young people who were in units across the border, and it may be that we can discuss the level of care in this case or we may not, but what's important here is that we have a level of provision in this nation of ours whereby people are close enough to their loved ones so that they don't feel that they're in these types of positions. So, I'm wanting to understand what you can do to ensure that we have an open debate about the possibilities of this added dimension that wasn't included in the initial framework because of the way in which the framework was delivered on that regional hub basis. I think the time has come whereby we do really need to revisit that model, not only for this case in itself, but for other young people across Wales who are in the same position.

Again, I recognise this is a real and serious issue. We know that many children and young people who access the CAMHS service and are treated—that eating disorders are part of the reason why they're actually in the CAMHS service receiving a specialist service. We have money to repatriate more people, but we recognise that we haven't done as much as we would want to. That point I was making, in response to Helen Mary's question, is about need not capacity being the driver for where people are treated. I will publish the eating disorders report that Jacinta Tan and the team of people, including people with eating disorders, have contributed to, and there'll obviously be a response. And I'm more than happy to have an open debate about the provision that we have, how that matches the provision that we think we should have, and how we get to a different place. So, I'm entirely open-minded about what we could and should be doing, and, as I say, the report will be published, and I know that you and other Members will have questions to ask and comments to make that I hope will be helpful in taking a better way forward. 

Thank you very much, Minister. Thank you. The second topical question this afternoon is to be answered by the Minister for Economy and Transport. Helen Mary Jones. 

We continue to have very regular discussions with Tata Steel on a range of issues including, of course, the proposed venture. 

I'm grateful to the Minister for his answer and reassured to hear that he is in regular contact. I'm sure I speak for everyone on all sides of this Chamber when I reflect the deep concern at the reports that Tata may be required to sell its Trostre site in order to facilitate the proposed merger with Thyssenkrupp.

Of course, we faced, in the Trostre plant, a situation similar to this before, when the business was owned by Corus, and we were in a situation where the workers in Llanelli were directly competing with a plant doing exactly the same work in the Netherlands. At that time, supported by the Welsh Government, the workforce and the local management were able to demonstrate that their profitability, their skill levels, were actually higher than those of the business—the competing plant—in the Netherlands. And I would like to seek the Minister's reassurance today that he'll do everything he can with the workforce and with the local management to ensure that this very high level of skill and these very important jobs—over 600 direct jobs and many, many more, of course, in the supply chain—are not lost to Wales.

It is, of course, of an importance beyond Llanelli, because the Trostre plant is a very important customer for Port Talbot. So, there would potentially be a knock-on effect there if the plant was sold in such a way as it was sold potentially to be closed down, as was the concern in the past. So, I hope that the Minister can reassure us that he will do everything he can to retain these really important jobs in Llanelli for the impact on the local economy, but also the economy of Wales more broadly. 

Can I thank the Member for the important question today, and assure her that we will do everything we can do to ensure that there is a sustainable steel-making sector in Wales, indeed just as we've been doing so since March 2016? I'm very pleased that the Member also identified the fact that Trostre is still a profitable site and that the Welsh Government has been instrumental in supporting the 650 steelworkers at the facility.

I think it's very important to say, Dirprwy Lywydd, that the site could not be sold off in order to close it. It would have to be sold in a way that ensures it has a viable future. I would not wish to speculate too much on what's been reported today, due to, of course, this being a commercially confidential matter between two companies. But I can confirm that the First Minister has spoken today with Hans Fischer and, as a consequence of the discussion that has taken place, we are cautiously optimistic that the sale will be approached in a way that secures the long-term future of the facility. 

Thank you very much for the question today, Helen Mary, and for your response there, Minister. Obviously, I find this upsetting, as my grandfather and my mother worked in Trostre for many years, but it is Port Talbot that is my primary concern at the moment, and Helen Mary mentioned the role that Trostre plays in Port Talbot's supply chain, if you like. 

I wonder whether there's been any work—I suppose it might be a little bit early for this—to try and map how the supply chain is likely to be affected by this, particularly within the city deal area, because, of course, one of the pluses for locating a steel innovation centre there within the city deal series of projects is the concentration of steel production, steel processing and steel fabrication. So, I would really like some reassurance that this is unlikely to, or will not, in fact, affect the ambitions within the city deal relating to steel. 

The merger, as we understand it now, looks quite different from that which we were anticipating, and I think that justifies the caution of many Members in this Chamber at the time that the merger was announced. At the time, you said, Minister, that during that period of the merger, you expected to be able to take forward your discussions on the support that Welsh Government can give Tata insofar as the Welsh-based operations are concerned, and that you would welcome an announcement of an extension of the employment pact to 2026, with a commitment to seek to avoid compulsory redundancies as a result of the joint venture. I heard your reply to Helen Mary, but can you give me some indication of what progress the Welsh Government has made on getting those commitments? Have you had any specific commitment that any jobs that might be lost from Trostre will be redistributed within the Tata family, preferably near home?

And then, finally, on the same sort of point, support for Tata overall is connected to their commitment to safeguard a certain number of jobs. I'm looking for reassurance here that the announcement today is not likely to delay any development at the Port Talbot site. I'm thinking in particular of the power plant there. Because all these things are interlinked and all are conditional on a certain level of employment being maintained. Obviously, I wouldn't want this announcement today to put at risk more positive plans for other parts of the Tata estate. Thank you.

Can I thank Suzy Davies for her questions as well, and say that this won't delay consideration of further support for Port Talbot and further support for skills training provision, should it be requested, in the months to come? The Member is absolutely right; £60 million was put on the table in order to support steel facilities in Wales in March of 2016, and £17 million pounds has been drawn down today, including, of course, a very significant amount of money for Port Talbot and the blast furnace in order to make sure that it's a more competitive facility than it was in the past.

Dirprwy Lywydd, I think it would be perhaps helpful for Members if I were to circulate a note on conditionality for Welsh Government support. Clearly, there are some issues that cannot be disclosed for commercial confidentiality purposes. However, I would like Members to be as knowledgeable as possible on how we are tying Welsh Government or taxpayer support to very strict conditions to ensure that as many jobs are protected for as long as possible.

The Member is absolutely right to raise the question of the potential impact on the ecosystem within Wales. Now, the Commission will make a decision on the proposed venture by 5 June, and at the point of a decision being made, we'll be able to ascertain what—if, indeed, any—impact there will be on the ecosystem. Of course, it's worth noting that Trostre is profitable and it is competitive, because it has been sourcing steel from Port Talbot. Given that it would have to be sold as a viable concern and as a competitive business, I would surely expect that it would go on sourcing steel from the facility that has helped to make it a profitable concern.

Minister, I hope your last point is true, because, as you say, it becomes a separate commercial entity and they will look for the cheapest deal they can get, not necessarily the best deal they can get. Therefore, clearly, the implications for Port Talbot are serious and our concerns are for Port Talbot, but also for the workers in Trostre, because it's a package—it's a whole package across Wales—Tata in Shotton, Port Talbot, Llanwern and in Trostre. It works together as a package. We've raised this many times, and I've raised with you many times the concerns that a joint venture could have. In 2016, we came out of the woods, but we hadn't cleared ourselves from the global challenges yet, and this is another one.

I do worry about this, because it's not just Trostre being mentioned; Tata are also divesting themselves of Cogent—the Orb works in Newport. It seems that Tata are divesting themselves of resources more than ThyssenKrupp in this joint-venture approach. So, what discussions are you going to have with Tata? You mentioned Hans Fischer, but perhaps we need to go above Hans Fischer to see where we actually have Tata's future in this place. Because I'm deeply concerned that when Bimlendra Jha left his position, there was no UK representation, effectively, for Tata in the UK, and particularly in Wales; it's left then, perhaps, to Martin Brunnock to be the senior person here. So, we need to have a look at having discussions with Tata in India, perhaps, to discuss what their future plans are for the industry in Wales as a whole, because this comes as a package.

Also, have you had discussions at all with the Commission? Because this is down to the Commission rules and looking at this whole approach of the joint venture and the monopoly side of things. So, have you had any opportunity to speak to the Commission at all in relation to looking at this project?

I fully appreciate the investment that the Welsh Government has given to steel over the last few years. It's been very beneficial. It's actually been one of the reasons we still have a steel industry here in Wales. But it is important to keep that industry, and that we pressurise Tata to actually ensure that all its commitments to Welsh steel continue, and that if it is going to sell—I got from your answer to Helen Mary Jones that it is going to sell Trostre, it seems, or that's the impression I got from your answer—we need to ensure that contracts that are in place with Port Talbot stay in place with Port Talbot, so they don't go elsewhere, and so we keep the industry here in Wales.

Can I thank David Rees for his questions and for his ongoing support for the steel industry in Wales? I should point out that, in terms of discussions that are taking place at the European Commission, this is, of course, a confidential negotiation between the European Commission and the joint venture partners, so it wouldn't be the place of Government to get involved in discussions with the European Commission. Our role has always been to create the right environment in which steel-making operations in Wales can be competitive and have a strong, bright future.

In terms of the question on whether Trostre would go on sourcing its steel from Port Talbot, of course, this will be a key concern of discussions that are going to take place between ourselves and Tata in the weeks to come. I am seeking discussions with the heads of Tata India's business, including, of course, with Bimlendra Jha, who's now returned to India, but with whom we still enjoy a very constructive relationship.

The joint venture is a 50:50 relationship between ThyssenKrupp and Tata Steel, and so we expect any pain to be shared equally in terms of any sale of assets. But I must stress again that the sale of Trostre would have to be conducted on the basis of it being a viable business in a competitive market, and I believe that that was stressed in the e-mail from Joe Gallagher to the workforce of Trostre just yesterday evening—that is absolutely correct.

Now, in terms of other steelworks in Wales, David Rees mentioned the Cogent Orb Electrical Steels business in Newport, and we are continuing to work very closely with Tata on that particular facility, of course. We have also helped in the successful sale of other concerns by Tata. For example, we helped to secure a future for its Afon Tinplate site. Now, on that occasion, we were able to ensure that there was a successful outcome and that all 43 members of staff were able to continue in their employment at the Swansea site, which now operates as part of the Tinmasters brand. Of course there will be anxiety at Trostre right now, but I am confident that with this Welsh Government continuing to focus relentlessly on creating the right environment in which steel facilities can succeed in Wales, those people employed at Trostre can enjoy a long-term future in the sector.

Thank you very much, Minister.

Item 5 is the 90-second statements. The first this afternoon is from Mick Antoniw.

Thursday 28 March was the eightieth anniversary of one of the great heroic acts during the Spanish civil war. On that day, Welshman and Cardiffian Captain Archibald Dickson rescued and saved the lives of 2,638 men, women and children fleeing Spain and General Franco’s approaching fascist troops. A blockade of the port of Alicante by Italian destroyers and the threat of German bombers led to scenes of chaos and desperation. Captain Dickson of the SS Stanbrook, witnessing these tragic scenes, in an act of utmost bravery, left his cargo behind and instead took on board the refugees. Ten minutes into the journey came the sound of explosions, and bombs landed near the Stanbrook, yet Captain Dickson broke the blockade, undoubtedly saving many lives.

In Alicante, there is a memorial plaque to Captain Dickson in Spanish, Welsh and English. Last week, on Sunday 31 March, a public civic event took place in Alicante to remember and commemorate these events. A statement of recognition and solidarity from the First Minister of Wales was read out, recognising the many Welsh men and women of the international brigade who fought fascism in Spain and saying,

'There is no greater act of solidarity than when one person risks their life for their fellow citizen.'

Plans are under way to locate a commemorative plaque, identical to the one in Alicante, near the Assembly in recognition of the deeds of Captain Dickson and in solidarity with the people of Alicante. I am delighted that the First Minister has pledged his support, and I know I can count on this Assembly to give its full support to this project.

Fifty people died and dozens more were injured when a gunman attacked two mosques in Christchurch, New Zealand, last month. This horrific event was a direct attack on the values of tolerance and freedom of worship, which we all hold dear. Recently, security had to be stepped up at mosques around Birmingham after five were targeted during a spate of vandalism. The Home Secretary, Sajid Javid, has announced a funding boost of £1.6 million of protective security for places of worship to help reassure communities. We in Wales must play our part. Nobody should fear persecution due to their faith. We reject those who seek to sow the seeds of hatred and division among our communities.

Deputy Presiding Officer, Jacinda Ardern, the Prime Minister of New Zealand, with the way she handled the situation after this whole massacre, she has become the most admirable woman around the world. She hugged the victims, she prayed with them, she cried with them, and the way she took those actions—the gun controls were done within days and her nation was crying with the victims and their families. We must learn lessons. Before I finish, I'll quote one or two words from that speech that she made. It is her quote:

'We are not immune to the viruses of hate, of fear, of other. We never have been. But we can be the nation that discovers the cure.'

I think we should be the one. The direct impact of her speech was that most of the victims actually pardoned the person who killed their relations. What a great person. I think, from this Chamber, we should invite her to come and tell us the way she has handled the situation and we should learn some lessons. Thank you.

The WorldSkills finals will be taking place between 22 and 27 August later this year. Dubbed the 'skills Olympics', it's an opportunity for the world's brightest and most skilled apprentices to challenge the best in the world in their respective professions. More than 60 countries will be sending teams to the event, which will be shown on live tv and streamed across the world. Thirty-two members of Team UK have already been announced, and members will represent a variety of sectors, ranging from engineering, hospitality, professional services, construction, digital and IT.

On a recent visit to Pembrokeshire College, I was delighted to be told of the success of three highly talented young professionals from the mid and west region, which I represent, who have secured their places on the WorldSkills UK team: Sam Everton and Chris Caine, former students at Pembrokeshire College, and Phoebe McLavy, who completed her training at Coleg Sir Gâr. Sam will be competing in the cooking competition, Chris in the joinery competition, and Phoebe will be demonstrating her skills in hairdressing. I'd like to praise the hard work and dedication of these young professionals, and the effort it has taken them to reach this stage of this highly prestigious competition. I'm sure that the whole Chamber will wish them the best of luck in the finals later this year. I know that they will take this opportunity to demonstrate to the world the level of talent that Wales has to offer.

The next item is a motion to suspend Standing Orders 11.16 and 12.20 to allow the report of the standards committee to be debated. I call on a Member of the Business Committee to move that motion.

I move.

Thank you. The proposal is to suspend Standing Orders. Does any Member object? No. Therefore, in accordance with Standing Order 12.36, the motion is agreed.

We now move on to the debate on the Standards of Conduct Committee's report 01-19 to the Assembly under Standing Order 22.9. I call on the Chair of the committee to move the motion—Jayne Bryant.

Diolch, Deputy Llywydd. As Chair of the Standards of Conduct Committee, I formally move the motion. The committee considered the report from the acting Commissioner for Standards in relation to a complaint made against Gareth Bennett AM regarding his integrity, which is a breach of paragraph 4(b) of the code of conduct and the Assembly's dignity and respect policy. The Standards of Conduct Committee gave the Commissioner's report careful consideration, and our report sets out the committee's judgment as to the sanction that is appropriate in this case. The facts relating to the complaint and the committee's reasons for its recommendations are set out in full in the committee's report. I would also like to take this opportunity to put on record the committee's thanks for the work undertaken by the acting Commissioner in relation to this complaint. The motion tabled invites the Assembly to endorse the committee's recommendations.

I realise that what I'm about to say is going to fall on deaf ears, but I will make my speech in any event. It's not related to the individual who is the subject of this report. These are general considerations about the way that the Standards of Conduct Committee is operating in order to give effect to the dignity and respect policy and the Standing Orders of this Assembly.

I'm concerned first of all at the admissibility of these complaints, because there were complaints made some time ago to Sir Roderick Evans, our standards commissioner, which he dismissed in a letter to Gareth Bennett of 3 October, which is published with the report. Sir Roderick says that

'I concluded that complaints that the video'—

which was being complained of—

'was sexist and misogynistic were not made out.'

Subsequently, several other complaints were made by other Members of the Assembly asking Sir Roderick to review his decision. There is of course no provision that would permit that under the existing rules. So, therefore, Sir Roderick decided that he would not be able to hear these new complaints, as a result of which Mr Bain was appointed to act in his place. Mr Bain then concluded that the new complaints were admissible, notwithstanding the fact that identical complaints had already been dismissed.

Now, it is a serious matter when we expose Members of this place to double jeopardy, as it would be of any citizen in the United Kingdom. In a court of law, where a matter is functus officio, being the official legal term for this in a court of law, no such complaint could be entertained, yet we are allowing double jeopardy in this place for complaints to be made ad nauseam, possibly, against individual Members. I believe that that in principle is wrong.

Mr Bain, in paragraph 6.1 of his report—excuse me—says that—

It's a long report.

Well, it's not so much long, but without my glasses it's difficult. Yes, in paragraph 6.1 of his report, Mr Bain says that he acknowledges that:

'the determination of complaints of this nature is a matter on which persons may legitimately reach different decisions.'

He then goes on to say:

'I am, of course, aware that the Commissioner for Standards, without the benefit of all the facts now before me, decided that Mrs Watson’s complaint'— 

which was the original one—

'about the publication of the video was not admissible.'

So, that leads us to: what had changed between the original complaint and the new complaints? Well, of course at the time that Mr Bain decided to investigate the matter, nothing had changed, because there had been no further investigation. As a result of his investigation, he decided—therefore retrospectively decided—that there was new information that enabled him to consider the complaint that he'd already decided to consider.

This revolved around a phrase that Gareth Bennett used, which was—I don't know whether Members know what the video was, which was basically Joyce Watson's face put onto the body of a barmaid. I'm explaining this for the benefit of those outside who may not understand what this case is about.

You're minimising it.

I'm not minimising it. I haven't finished my speech as yet. You can make your speech in due course.

I will read from the report. Mr Gething, whose complaint was that the video was

'transparently sexist. The buxom barmaid imagery is plainly meant to belittle and offend. The reference to'— 

Sorry, I'm wrong. Sorry, it's the wrong paragraph. Without my glasses it's difficult for me to read. I apologise to Members for having made that mistake. Close to the start of the video is the following text:

'Joyce once ran a pub in Pembrokeshire but you wouldn't guess that from looking at her. She doesn't look like the life and soul of the party.' [Interruption.]

I am quoting from the report, which is published. I am quoting from the report, which is published, and I will make my speech, with the permission of the Deputy Presiding Officer, in my own way.

If you've got a concluding sentence.

Then—this is the important sentence—

'I'm not sure I would fancy popping in for a quick one at the local if I saw her pulling pints at the bar.' [Interruption.]

I wish Members would listen. I am trying to make a—[Interruption.] I know that Members do not want to listen—

Whoa—

—to listen to things that you don't want to hear.

Can I ask the Member to wind up, please?

Turn his mike off.

I don't need help, thank you. Can you wind up, please?

No, I can't, Deputy Presiding Officer—

I think you can wind up.

—because I've been enduring interruptions that have interrupted the flow of what I'm trying to say. I'm trying to make a serious point about the meaning of this term, 'a quick one at the local'. Mr Bain—

Point of order.

No, no—no points of order in the middle of a debate, sorry. Will you come to your concluding sentence? Will you come to your concluding sentence?

Mr Bain claimed that that was a sexist remark. 'Popping in for a quick one at the local' to me— 

It's not the world of Benny Hill, you know.

Can you come to your concluding sentence?

'Popping in for a quick one' means to almost anybody, I would have thought—

Mr Hamilton, please come to your—

—popping in for a drink.

Mr Hamilton—

I did a quick search on the internet—

Mr Hamilton, please come—

I couldn't find a single—[Interruption.]

Mr Hamilton, please come to your concluding sentence.

The Cambridge English Dictionary says 'have a quick one' means

'to have a drink, usually an alcoholic drink, just before going somewhere'.

There is no—

Right, I have turned your mike off. Please come to your concluding sentence; you have had far too long to speak.

Well, I'm sorry that I'm being silenced in this serious matter—

You're not being silenced; you've had time.

—which affects the freedom of speech of Members of this place—

Please come to your concluding sentence.

You'll have heard the attempts of Members here to silence this speech and to interrupt it.

Please come to your concluding sentence. Please come to your concluding sentence, or please sit down.

Hardly a day passes in this place when UKIP Members are not belittled or offended by some of the remarks that other Members of this house—[Interruption.] I believe that in a free society members of a democratic assembly should be prepared to put up with criticism and, indeed, sometimes being belittled and offended. That is part and parcel of it, and Joyce Watson—

No, sorry, you've had long enough. Sorry, please, sit down. Please sit down. Please sit down. Your mike's not on. Your mike's not on. Your mike will not go on. Please sit down. 

Right, sorry, Huw Irranca-Davies is the next speaker. Sorry, Huw Irranca-Davies.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. And actually, this has illustrated the point I wanted to make.

First of all, can I commend the report that's come forward? It's a difficult decision whenever such allegations are levelled against any Member and also for the individual, I have to say, who has been the subject of the original complaints as well. And I think the way in which, Neil, you've dealt with this today has just resurfaced those issues in a very uncomfortable way—and I say this politely—to great discomfort, not only to the individual, but to Members and people watching these proceedings.

But can I just say, because the point that I wanted to come to is to do with the way that we deal with this? And first of all, it should be on the basis that you play at the whistle. You do not question the referee. And, Neil, you know as well as I know that when a Member in the House of Commons is sanctioned, they not only appear there and are expected to sit there and to listen, in courtesy and in humility to what is being said, but they are often asked by the Standards and Privileges Committee to make an apology in person. I am amazed, Deputy Presiding Officer, and I think we need to revisit our Standing Orders to insist that the Member is present. I've seen it too many times in this place that the Member scuttles off somewhere to hide from this and allows somebody else to barrack a defence on their behalf. And I would welcome the opportunity that we actually revisit Standing Orders and look at both the insistence that the Member should be present and, secondly, that we extend those Standing Orders that we have under 22.10—where we are allowed to censure a Member, withdraw rights and privileges, exclude a Member from Assembly proceedings—to also add the fact that we could demand an apology if the grievance is significant.

Secondly, the power of the Chair, or in this case the Deputy Presiding Officer. In Erskine May, in the House of Commons, it says very, very clearly that the power of the Chair, the Speaker, to name and sanction a Member who's disregarded the authority of the Chair, or who has persistently and wilfully obstructed the house by abusing its rules, he or she, after generally being given every opportunity—that empty chair today speaks volumes—every opportunity to set matters right, may be named, and then may be suspended for five days, for 20 days, for as long as that house decides. In our Standing Orders, here in this red book, which is our bible, it says, if a Member, Neil,

'refuses to conform to any Standing Order or other requirement...; or...disregards the authority of the chair.'

There is only one thing that keeps us within rules, within conduct in this house; it is the authority of the Chair.

The reason I've stood to speak is not on the substance, although I welcome the findings and the recommendations that have come forward, I really do. But, should that Member not see it fit—who is absent today—to apologise, to show some contrition for what is done, I would thoroughly recommend that the committee revisits it, comes back, and revisits the option of actually bringing forward a further suspension, but in so doing also looks at the range of penalties that can be done.

I would like to see that Member here, not being defended by somebody else, but to speak for themselves and to apologise and to show contrition. Because if they don't, it is not only out of compliance with Standing Orders, on which we will shortly vote and show the will of this house, but it's also out of compliance with the Standing Orders about the power of our Presiding Officer and Deputy Presiding Officer. Disregarding the authority of the Chair. I should think there is disrespect being shown not only to the Member, but also to this Chamber here. And if we are a democratic institution, as Neil was so keen to say, then we abide by the rules, we apologise when we all do things wrong, and the committee says so, and we listen to the Chair and we accept the sanctions. [Applause.]

Thank you. Can I call on the Chair of the committee, Jayne Bryant, to reply to the debate? Jayne.

Diolch, Deputy Llywydd. Firstly, I'd like to say that I'm disappointed with the tone of the Member for Mid and West Wales. I'm surprised he didn't quote the report, which says:

'As Assembly Members, we have a responsibility to set an example on how to behave with dignity and respect to all of society, and this video falls well below the standards expected.'

On the point that he made on the acting commissioner as well, the commissioner did make it clear in his statement concerning the appointment of an acting commissioner back in October, which he shared with Members, that he'd received further complaints and therefore considered himself unable to act in this matter. It's permissible within the legislation for an acting commissioner to be appointed and there is nothing in the Measure to prevent a complaint being looked at where one of a similar nature has been dismissed. The committee received legal advice that the double jeopardy provisions would not apply in such instances, and I'd like to remind him that this is not a court of law.

Moving on to Huw Irranca-Davies, I thank Huw Irranca-Davies for his contribution. The committee does consider, and it did in this instance, whether a Member apologises as part of its deliberations. In this instance, it did take the Member's lack of contrition, which is noted in the report, into account when reaching our conclusion. We'd be happy to look into the points that you raise as well, as we'll be looking at sanctions once our code of conduct work is complete. It's timely to review that and make sure they're fit for purpose. 

Thank you. The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Therefore, we defer voting under this item until voting time. 

Item 6 on the agenda is a debate on a Member's legislative proposal on child victims of sexual abuse. I call on Bethan Sayed to move the motion. Bethan.

I was keen to bring this debate today because I and others here have been intrigued and interested by this debate into the models of delivery of support services in this arena.

Members will be aware of the petition, which is still under consideration by the Petitions Committee, relating to the Barnahus model and to increasing provision of safety and support for child sex abuse victims. The petition was brought by one of my South Wales West constituents, Mayameen Meftahi, who has been a strong advocate for a reform in services available for child sex abuse victims. This shows the strength of the petitions system. I met her at the petition presentation and she did have a very strong effect on me when she told me her personal story of the harrowing experience that she'd gone through in her childhood. 

This is a really emotive issue and it's something that none of us here, I'm sure, will not be moved by, along with people across the country. The point of bringing this debate is my attempt to offer some of those ideas to the floor of the Senedd so we can see what consensus there is and to elaborate on the feasibility of these ideas. I'm sure that they will be given serious consideration by the Government.

I recognise that some of the ideas we'll discuss are relatively new concepts in the UK, but I believe that they form part of a crucial potential revolution in how we treat children and how we can support children, many of whom will be in a place of abject despair and trauma.

My motion focuses on three primary points: how we can work with police to produce better outcomes as part of the Barnahus model; how we can provide an increase in provision and ensure the multiple levels of support and assessment are in one place; and how we can offer a refuge for children in need. 

The Barnahus model was launched in Iceland in 1998 as a direct response to some of the same problems that we see in many other countries, including our own: conviction rates lower than they should be; children not feeling safe enough or not being supported enough to come forward; children worried about repercussions if they did come forward; children in a place of deep trauma, without the kind of necessary supportive environment absolutely essential to help someone vulnerable in a very dark place to open up. The Barnahus model, or 'child house', as it is translated directly, has been a success story. The services are therapeutic-led, with trained professionals leading a safe environment designed with children in mind. And the Barnahus acts as a one-place suite for services. These include the forensic interview, medical examination and child and family therapy. Witness testimony against an abuser can also be given without the need for a victim to give multiple testimonies in multiple settings.

Many victims of child sex abuse often do not have a particularly good view of statutory services and, in some cases, do not have the best direct experiences either. Many child sex abuse victims have not been a victim of just one kind of abuse. A lot of children will also have potentially fallen into difficulties with authorities for varied reasons, often related to the abuses they have suffered, and will not have confidence or ease in talking to police or authorities. 

When a victim does come forward, it's more common than not that, under the current system, prosecution will not be successful. There are regular instances of evidentiary requirements not being met, and often this is intertwined with children not meeting the common expectations for witnesses. Due to the stress and trauma of the settings in which a child victim is required to give evidence or dropping out of the process at some point after it's started, for myriad reasons, this is not surprising. 

The well-being of a child is also placed in jeopardy, as the re-traumatising effect of multiple interviews across different authorities is poor practice, yet it is an accepted practice. It's one reason why the time taken to bring a charge in CSA cases is significantly longer than for adults. A clinical psychologist-led interview process in one room, where courts can listen and ask questions live, is a better model, and it's supported by authorities across this country, which are encouraging this model to be tried, including the former Home Secretary, Amber Rudd. So, working with the police on this is essential, and this is within our competence. The Children's Commissioner for England, for example, has already teamed up, to trial the model, with some police services in England, and urged each police force area to establish the model by 2016. I think there's little reason why Wales shouldn't or couldn't do the very same. Of course this would require potential investment, and I'm not suggesting that the current model of sexual assault referral centres be scrapped completely in favour of something brand new. That's not what I'm saying here today. The current work of SARCs, in partnership with regional safeguarding boards, could be built upon where they currently work well, or the Barnahus could be established in some areas of the country where there is a significant lack of provision at the moment. And that's something that third sector bodies have raised with me as a result of this legislative proposal being chosen. 

We have to do better here in Wales. I appreciate that policing is not directly devolved, however this system of assessment, support and interviews all under one roof is already available in pilot centres in London, and police and crime commissioners can be worked with on this agenda. In fact, the PCC for north Wales has already expressed to me his willingness to support a similar model here in Wales. 

This is a model that has been successful. It's been applied across the Nordic countries, where substantial improvements have been witnessed. Conviction rates doubled in Iceland, and the time taken to complete assessments and investigations lowered dramatically. This model has been adopted in parts of the US and Canada as child advocacy centres from the 1980s, and there is a movement across Europe for this to be rolled out. So, I personally don't accept the view that this is an idea that would need a substantial level of work to investigate, or adaptations, in order to find a suitable model for Wales. Sometimes it's appropriate to follow international best practice and to do so immediately. Sorry to quote the commissioner for England again, but, I quote:

'Experiences in Sweden, Norway and Denmark demonstrate that the model can be adapted and implemented within the legal framework of another country, without compromising the core principles which deliver such impressive results.' 

So, we wouldn't need to compromise anything we are currently doing.

I was very keen when submitting this motion that it should include a discussion regarding safe houses and refuge accommodation. If a child turns up to a police station or makes an allegation to a teacher regarding a parent, guardian or family member sexually abusing them, then I believe it right that there is a safe space and accommodation available for that child to go to be supported whilst waiting for the statutory process to go into effect or to wait for the appropriate foster care options. At the moment, local authorities have the power to issue emergency care orders and for children to go into foster care, but I don't believe that this should be the only option.

Although there are excellent networks of foster carers across the country who do sterling work in this area, there is also a shortage of foster carers. In 2018 it was noted that Wales faced a shortfall of over 500; across the UK, it was estimated by the Fostering Network that 8,000 were needed to fill the gaps in provision.

When a child is placed in an emergency foster care situation, there is also no guarantee that the family will have specific experience of dealing with children with sexual abuse, although I appreciate that they would hope to be able to deal with that in the most appropriate way. That child would often be placed in a temporary situation, before moving on to a foster carer with, hopefully, more experience with that particular background in mind. But the specialist care and support would not necessarily be available immediately.

Women's Aid has supported the calls for safe houses for children because there is a postcode lottery for children in many cases, and because the specialist support and environment available to a woman who enters a women's refuge are incredibly important. That same supportive and specialist environment should be available to a vulnerable child, even if only as a short-term option.

As I said earlier, the petition calling for child houses in Wales was brought by a Swansea constituent of mine, Mayameen Meftahi, who herself suffered from abuse and ran away from home but was returned to an abusive household—that's something that she never wants to see happen to anybody else. She has called for child safe houses because the reality of the pressures of the trauma on the child facing up and coming forward with an experience as harrowing as this is absolutely enormous—we can't underestimate the experience that child will have to go through. Will they be believed? Will someone listen to them? Will they face the prospect of having to return home? Will someone in the family convince them to retract that particular allegation? We've seen it happen. We've seen it in the news—we've seen these stories and we don't want to see them again.

The option of a refuge setting, where a child can get support to deal with these issues and decisions, is an option worth investigating. Let's not forget that there are big decisions and a very big process forced onto the shoulders of a very vulnerable child. I'm prepared to listen to the Government and other Members on the practicalities of setting up options such as this, and to what extent joint working across statutory agencies and appropriate third sector partners could mean. I'm encouraged by the Welsh children's commissioner's words that she would welcome engagement on how best to approach the setting up of a safe space or refuge, and how that could work. I know that there is a piece of work under way at the moment into this particular model in London—it's called the Lighthouse project. But even though that review is underway, that doesn't stop us from adopting it here—it has been working successfully there so far.

Just to finish, I would genuinely encourage the Government to support this motion today as part of a wider suite of ways to reform the system for the better. We know that this is a very sensitive area, but we also know that those who have experienced abuse are sometimes best placed to tell us what needs to happen, and in this case I think that's right.

Thank you very much. Can I just gently remind Members that it's a 30-minute debate? It's going to be interesting to see how Bethan goes backwards now to reply to the debate, but I will be lenient. Can I just remind Members that it's three minutes, and the Minister has six minutes to speak? Let's see how we get on. Janet Finch-Saunders.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I would like to thank the Member for bringing this motion to debate and reminding us all of the need to work towards the protection and safeguarding of our children and young people that are victims of the most horrific sexual abuse and exploitation. I am terribly concerned by the statistics on current sexual abuse, and the serious and often long-term psychological harm that this can have on victims. Approximately 54,000 sexual offences were committed against children under the age of 18 in the period between October 2015 and 2016. 

Sexual abuse can occur in multiple forms, from rape, sexual activity, sexual assault, trafficking, abuse of trust, voyeurism, and other non-consensual and manipulative abuse. Given the inevitable psychological distress, pain and suffering that accompanies sexual abuse, I agree that Wales—having read more into it—should also look to adopt the Barnahus Icelandic model.

As explained by the NHS England review of pathway following sexual assault for children and young people in 2005, the Barnahus model fully integrates the psychological care and treatment that these victims need early on in their recovery, and when they report the crime. Crucially, this model emphasises the inclusion of fully qualified and experienced mental health practitioners. There will be full integration of all bodies that would have close involvement with a child sexual abuse case.

Indeed, two of the biggest hurdles that need to be overcome in properly tackling sexual abuse are the building of trust and confidence in young people to come forward, and to reduce and mitigate the feelings of fear and self-blame that are often entrenched in sexual abuses cases. The key to the former, of course, involves the police and their relationship to communities and to the public. Perhaps this aspect of police work needs to be emphasised more, with better police training, and also looking at how they do interact when reports come in.

In summary, I wish to express my approval of this motion in order to protect some of our most vulnerable children. Comprehensive changes are needed, and this does include, I think, working towards the principle that Bethan Sayed AM has mentioned, the Barnahus model, as in Iceland, Norway, Greenland and Denmark. As well as preventing re-traumatisation and continuing to offer therapeutic intervention services, we should also strive to overcome the emotional factors that cause such poor prosecution rates. Thank you and well done, Bethan.   

Well done. Caroline Jones. 

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I would like to thank Bethan for bringing forward this proposed legislation, and I want to say at the outset that I fully support her in this. Like Bethan, I met Mayameen when she came to the Senedd to present her petition, calling for the provision of child houses in Wales for victims of child sexual abuse. I spent time with Mayameen as she informed a couple of us of her harrowing tale of abuse by her father. Her bravery and strength of spirit shone through. I can safely say that she is one of the most inspirational persons I have ever had the pleasure to meet. 

Mayameen did not want other child victims to suffer from the same lack of basic support that she had suffered. And she said a child suffering any form of abuse should not be returned to that same environment once they have made that complaint and it has become known by certain services. 

By adopting the Barnahus model, it is not necessarily about the creation of multiple safe houses, but recognising that we are failing to provide any basic provision for child victims of sexual abuse. The model has been so successful around the world and in other parts of the UK that it has been widely adopted as the preferred model by experts in child protection. Wales needs to adopt this model to ensure that children who are suffering child abuse will have somewhere to escape. Without Barnahus, they will be returned back home, back into the arms of their abuser, just like we did to Mayameen.

Mayameen has spoken out so that others don't suffer like she did as a child. We owe it to her and countless other victims of child sexual abuse to listen. Communication and teamwork between agencies such as social services and police are of paramount importance in these cases. This proposal answers those calls and I urge Members to support it and to pass this legislation as soon as we can. Diolch yn fawr. 

Thank you. Can I now call on the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services, Julie Morgan? 

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer, and I thank Bethan Sayed for bringing this debate here today. I know we all agree that children who are sexually abused deserve the best possible, child-centred approach. Child sexual abuse has a significant detrimental impact on the well-being of children, as Members have said here today, and we know that this can often affect them throughout all their lives. Sometimes, they don't even reveal this abuse until much later in life because of the trauma it has caused. That's why services must operate in a way that supports children's emotional well-being and assists them to recover from the trauma of abuse. 

The Government will publish a national action plan on preventing and responding to child sexual abuse in the summer. The plan will set out clear actions for the Welsh Government and for safeguarding board partners. This will include cross-Government action to strengthen support to children who are sexually abused. We've already published the violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence cross-Government delivery framework and together these policies set out our ambitions for strengthening support to children who are sexually abused and to adult survivors of sexual abuse. 

The NHS is currently leading work, in partnership with the police, safeguarding partners and the third sector all working together, to develop a sustainable model of sexual assault services for children and adults in Wales. We are aware that the implementation of the Barnahus model in Iceland has secured positive outcomes, both for child-centred practice and in terms of a rise in indictments and convictions. It has been successful in doing that. And we know about the child house pilot in London, where criminal justice processes and therapeutic support for children are brought together in one site. It will be important to better understand how the model will work in the context of the UK justice system, and we will consider the evaluation of this pilot once completed. In developing therapeutic support services for children who are sexually abused, we will also consider the evidence on the efficacy of other child-centred approaches.

We do not agree that legislation is required to secure these changes in this area of practice, and the Government will abstain on this motion. Children who are sexually abused will be subject to safeguarding proceedings. This will include a consideration by social services of where a child should live in order to keep them safe. The ministerial advisory group on improving outcomes for children has a programme of work that includes further strengthening our approach to appropriate and safe placements for children who become looked after. We would not want to promote any situation where abused children are expected to directly access any emergency accommodation and we would be concerned about the risk that perpetrators could identify the location of such accommodation and could target children for abuse. We also provide funding to Childline, which offers a safe way for children who are being abused to make contact with a counsellor who can report the abuse to social services.

Our policy development and practice advice in this area is directly informed by evidence from children and adult survivors, who we consider to be experts in their own experiences. Welsh Ministers are committed to promoting the right to be safe for children in Wales, and feel that many of the points made in this debate today are vitally important. 

Thank you very much. I will allow Bethan to respond to the debate. 

Sorry, I didn't realise the time had gone.

No, I thought you didn't. I thought you didn't.

I won't be very long. I just wanted to thank Janet Finch-Saunders, as ever, for her support of this idea and others that I've put forward in the past, and to Caroline Jones as well—you were with me when I met with our constituent and I know that it had an impact on us and it will form a basis of future work, I'm sure. In relation to the response from the Government—obviously disappointed that you've decided not to support it today, although the abstention is something I'll take. You know, small wins. 

Just to emphasise the fact that, for adults, for women, refuges do exist, and they are kept a secret from people. I visited them on a very confidential basis, and, yes, there may be instances where the abusers can find out the address, but I would like to think that, if we did set up this type of facility in Wales—we've seen from international examples that they are safe, that they are there for the child in every way, sense and form, and we could do it in a safe and supportive way here in Wales.

You say that you're waiting for the evaluation of the Lighthouse project in London, so I'm going to appeal to you that, if the evaluation comes out positively from the Lighthouse project in London, you will reconsider your abstention and that, as part of the action plan, you will be open-minded to considering this as a suite of ideas for that action plan, because I genuinely believe that this is one additional element to supporting children that could be there as an option, as opposed to trying to undermine everything else that's there—that's not what I'm saying. So, please keep an open mind, please look at the evaluation and include Assembly Members in the formulation of that action plan. That's something that we'd all like to work with you on. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Thank you. The proposal is to note the proposal. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay. Therefore, we vote on this item at voting time.

Item 7 on our agenda this afternoon is a debate on the Finance Committee report, 'The implementation of fiscal devolution in Wales (2019)', and I call on the Chair of the committee to move the motion—Llyr Gruffydd.

Thank you very much, Dirprwy Lywydd. It's my pleasure to lead this debate this afternoon on the report by the Finance Committee on the implementation of fiscal devolution in Wales. The timing of this debate is very timely, of course, because in three days income tax rates decided in this Chamber will come into force. I'm sure that not many people would have thought we would have reached this point many years ago, but this, of course, will generate about £2 billion-worth of tax that'll be collected each year in Wales. The decision to introduce Welsh rates of income tax represents the largest such transfer of responsibility in Wales's history. And it's a key moment for us in terms of implementing fiscal devolution in Wales and the final part of the Wales Act 2014. Also, Monday was the one-year anniversary of the introduction of the first new Welsh taxes for 800 years, namely the land transaction tax and the landfill disposals tax. So, it's been a significant year for fiscal devolution in Wales.

I'm pleased, therefore, to open this debate today as Chair of the Finance Committee at such an important juncture, and I'd like to thank those who contributed to the inquiry. The committee is happy to report that the implementation of fiscal devolution in Wales has so far been largely successful. In particular, the establishment of the Welsh Revenue Authority, and then the subsequent implementation of the land transaction tax and landfill disposals tax, have been very positive. It's reassuring to note that the final cost of implementing the WRA was delivered within the Welsh Government's initial estimate, at around £6 million.

The committee visited the WRA offices in Treforest last year, and the positive, enthusiastic culture that the organisation has fostered and the expertise they have attracted made a very positive impression on us as committee members.

At times, when scrutinising the Welsh Government's work, criticism can be directed at civil servants, but on this occasion we feel that we should acknowledge their hard work and their enthusiasm for this process.

However, the committee notes that it is early days for the establishment of the WRA, and the committee would like to echo its concerns from last year's report regarding the number of on loan staff and seconded staff that they currently retain at the authority. And, while we recognise the benefits of this approach in the establishment of the WRA, we do believe that consideration needs to be given to workforce planning and the steps being taken to retain knowledge and experience within the authority. The WRA board told us that they were giving this issue due consideration and that a 'people committee' had been established to consider the issue of staff retention. The committee would welcome annual updates from the board specifically on this issue.

On 15 January, following a vote in this Chamber, we decided that 10p would be the Welsh rate of income tax for each band, namely the same as the consequential reduction in UK income tax rates. This means that the rates that people in Wales pay will not change this year.

From this Saturday, Welsh taxpayers will be paying these Welsh rates of income tax, and while taxpayers here in Wales will see little noticeable difference in the coming tax year, the committee feels that it is important that everyone knows about these changes and understands them, and we are concerned, perhaps, that the message is not reaching some Welsh taxpayers.

The committee heard that some had found that the leaflet that was issued by HMRC and the Welsh Government was confusing, with some interpreting it as meaning that they would have to pay 10p more than their current rates by paying income tax in Wales. In addition, the committee carried out informal polling in February, which suggested that almost a third of Welsh taxpayers remained unaware of the changes, and this is evidently concerning. The Welsh Government is about to undertake a formal evaluation of its communications activity post-implementation, and we would welcome a timely update on the outcomes of this evaluation when this is available.

HMRC confirmed that the work involved in the transfer to LTT is almost complete, and that it remains confident that the costs will come in within the revised estimate of between £1.75 million and £2 million. HMRC also confirmed that the costs for implementing Welsh rates of income tax remain also within the £7.5 million to £9.5 million range provided in October. The committee would like to receive an update on the final costs of turning off stamp duty land tax and of the implementation of Welsh rates of income tax once this information is known.

Now, as part of this inquiry, the committee invited the Secretary of State to provide evidence—as the committee did last year, of course—and we are very disappointed by the Secretary of State’s unwillingness to engage with us once again. Despite the introduction of Welsh rates, income tax remains a UK tax and HMRC is one of the UK Government departments, and that's the body that collects it. As such, evidence from the Secretary of State is essential, particularly given the failure to include 400,000 Scottish taxpayers in the new system. So, it's essential that the committee is able to establish that Wales’ interests are being adequately protected at the UK level. 

The Secretary of State’s offer to meet committee members individually and in private was very frustrating, I have to say. The committee believes that public scrutiny should be undertaken on such constitutionally significant changes and a formal, public committee session would be much more appropriate, much more transparent, and, of course, of much greater value for all of us. This is especially true when it's so important to raise public awareness of these changes. Discussions in private, as the Secretary of State was proposing, contribute nothing to the public's engagement and understanding. 

Devolution in Wales is a landscape that is constantly changing, and the committee is pleased that the latest leg of this devolution journey has been carried out in what appears to be a smooth and well-managed process. However, it's essential that we avoid complacency when it comes to informing the people of Wales of these new changes, and the committee intends to monitor this as well as the way in which the new taxes and the Welsh rates of income tax function in the coming months and years.

However, given that we have stated that it's important to recognise when things are done well, I want to commend everyone involved in the process thus far, including the various finance Ministers and officials, as well as the way in which the HMRC and Welsh Government departments have worked together.

Setting up new taxes, a new tax collection body, and making fundamental changes to the way in which taxes work in this country are significant events, and the work is progressing on time, within budget, and in a successful manner. I’d like to thank everyone, therefore, for their contributions to the committee’s inquiry, and I look forward to updating the Assembly in the coming years on this new era of Welsh fiscal devolution. Thank you. 

'On time, within budget, and in a successful manner.'

It's not always that we hear those descriptions of projects. This was very—. I don't have much to add, actually, to what the Chair of the committee has said. This was a very interesting inquiry to be involved in. Can I also thank the witnesses who came before the inquiry? We've managed to deliver, I think, a very efficient and timely report that only has three recommendations, but they're three important recommendations. As I said earlier in the finance questions to the Minister, it's very easy at the moment to proclaim every day as momentous when it comes to fiscal devolution, because there's something happening every day. And I understand that 6 April is the actual deadline date that the Welsh rate of income tax will kick in. This is clearly the most important process that the Assembly has been through, if not since the advent of devolution, certainly since the advent of further powers back in 2011. Therefore, it's clearly important that we get it right, and I know that that was the intention of everyone on the committee.

I'm pleased that the Welsh Government has accepted the three recommendations—they're pretty straightforward. If I can just turn to recommendation 3 first, given some of the concerns of the FSB that I raised earlier regarding the lack of awareness of businesses about the devolution of stamp duty and landfill disposals tax, it's clearly important that people are aware that this month, on 6 April, there's income tax devolution and what it means for them. As the Chair said, it was concerning that some people thought they were going to be charged an extra 10p on top of the UK rate of income tax. I think that would cause a mass migration across the border within a few months. So, Welsh Government, and all of us, in fact, need to do what we can to make sure that people do fully understand this. But at the same time, this is a complex process, and for those people who aren't involved in the day-to-day running of taxation, then it's something that clearly needs to be set out.

Recommendation 2 relates to knowledge transfer within the Welsh Revenue Authority, and this is important if the organisation is not only to survive now, but to be strengthened in the future, as we'd all want to see. We need to recruit, develop and retain tax-specific skills—to quote the report—in Wales. Let's face it; we've never required this depth of capability here before. This is ground-breaking stuff in every sense. But we do need it now. And that doesn't just apply to the Welsh Revenue Authority; that also applies to the Welsh Government too. We don't just need to have the taxation knowledge; we need to have the economic knowledge and the tax forecasting and economic forecasting ability as well. 

Chapter 5 of the report doesn't actually end in a recommendation, but chapter 5 covers new taxes. The previous Cabinet Secretary's intention to test the mechanism for developing a new tax—I assume that the current Minister has inherited that intention. Perhaps she can clarify that. I'm pleased that the Finance Committee looks set to be involved in the development of any new taxes, both the first one and any subsequent taxes. As with income tax, as I said before, it's clearly important that we get this process right, particularly as it's not been done before. Potentially, new taxes could have a rather fundamental effect on the economy now and in the future, going back to that forecasting mechanism I said the Welsh Government needs to develop.

Returning to the current implementation of the Welsh rate of income tax, we need to keep an eye on the anticipated transition costs. They're predicted to be £5 million to £10 million, significantly less than the £20 million to £25 million that was initially predicted for Scotland—or happened in Scotland, I should say. The reason, as stated in the report, is that the Assembly can piggyback on the system developed for Scotland. Now, let's hope that's the case. It probably will be, but at the same time, as we hear often in debates in this place, Wales and Scotland are not the same, and therefore there could be unexpected costs that we're not aware of at the moment. So, we do, as the Chair said, need to keep all of this under review, and the Welsh Government needs to make sure that the mechanism is in place so that if any of this does go awry, the Minister is aware of those problems at the earliest opportunity so that reassurances can be given to the public that taxation devolution is going ahead as it should be.

Very finally, Deputy Presiding Officer, border costs. Mike Hedges will probably mention these. If my former colleague the late Steffan Lewis were here, he would've mentioned it as well. He used to get very worked up on the committee when we endlessly talked about the border. He said that borders work elsewhere in the world and there's no reason they can't work here as well. He's probably right on that. But there will be a cost to issues such as the complex mapping of the Welsh border and that will need to be looked at. It's never been done before effectively, because it was never necessary, but now we're moving down this road, it needs to be done in the future. But I'm pleased to have been part of this debate.

It's interesting to come to a report that could be best summed up as, 'Everything's gone well.' You can tell that by the number of people who are taking part in the debate and the number of people in here. If the statement had been that everything had gone badly, it would be a very lengthy debate, we'd be struggling to make it within the hour, and people would be queueing up for it.

If I can just answer Nick Ramsay's last point, we were told that the border was being sorted out by the land registry and they were going to actually work out exactly which properties were which side of the border, and we were then told it had been done. It might have been a meeting or part of a meeting you missed, but we have actually been told that it's now been done by the land registry. So, you can put somewhere in, and they can work out not only which country it's in, or nation it's in, but they can also say how much of it is in each, which solves what I always thought was a problem, and Steffan Lewis always said would be very easy to resolve—and he proved to be right.

We've had council tax and non-domestic rates devolved for some time. The Wales Act 2014 devolved certain taxes and borrowing powers to Wales, and enabled the Welsh Government to legislate in respect of stamp duty land tax and landfill tax. That also legislates for the partial devolution of income tax, the Welsh rate of income tax. Land transaction tax and landfill tax went live, as Llyr Gruffydd said, on 1 April 2018, and are administered by the Welsh Revenue Authority. We have now reached the end of the first year of devolved land transaction and landfill disposals taxes. I look forward to seeing the end-of-year outturns for these taxes, and ask that, at the very least, a written statement is provided to this Assembly saying exactly what they are.

The evidence provided to this committee suggests that the implementation of fiscal devolution to Wales has, so far, been largely successful. The committee recognises that it's still early days in the process, but believes the positive work that has been undertaken so far should be acknowledged. Landfill disposals tax raises very little money, and the amount raised is reducing year on year. The aim of the tax when it was first brought in was to affect behaviour rather than to raise money. It was brought in to increase the cost of landfill disposals, compared to recycling, and thus make it not cost-effective to continue to use landfill, and that's actually worked, because Wales is one of the best recycling nations in the world. But the aim—while it's nice to raise money, success for the landfill tax would be to raise no money at all, because nothing was being put into landfill. I think most people in this room would see that as a huge success.

Land transaction tax has the ability to vary enormously between years. Between 2007-08 and 2010-11, it was estimated to have dropped by half. It's the second most volatile tax. Capital gains tax is the most volatile tax, but it is second in terms of volatility. So, it's nice to have it; it's going to be great, year on year, when we either do very well, and the Government gets up and says, 'Look how well we've done with land transaction tax,' or it does very badly and the opposition get up and say, 'See, your land transaction tax hasn't worked.' The reality is that it's going to vary year on year. Outside of recession, it's remarkably stable, and slow, steady growth has been predicted by the OBR, but the OBR has always predicted slow, steady growth for everything. They don't believe we're ever going to have a recession I think they could well be wrong. There will be a recession at some time, and we'll have a substantial drop in this income.

We're going to enter the first year of partially devolved income tax. The Welsh Government can vary the rate of income tax, but has made a commitment not to increase it before the 2011 election. The Scotland Act 1998 transferred the power to legislate—[Interruption.] It's 2021, sorry. I was elected in 2011. Thank you. [Interruption.] It is—2021, sorry. The Scotland Act 1998 transferred the power to legislate for local taxation and also the power to vary income tax by plus or minus 3p in the pound. This was not used by Labour or the SNP-led Governments in Scotland, and I cannot foresee the income tax basic rate being varied in Wales. Increase it, and there will be voter backlash to paying more than England; decrease it, and there'll be even greater cuts in public services. You really are stuck with what it is. You have a power that is very difficult, if not impossible, to use.

One of the things I believe all of us in the Assembly should do, and I believe have a duty to do, is to explain, as Nick Ramsay did earlier, that it's not an additional tax. It's not another 10p; it is actually just a movement of part of the tax coming to the Welsh Government directly, rather than indirectly. Whilst it'll be reallocated to Wales, the tax collection will be exactly the same as it is now.

Finally, there's an opportunity to bring in new taxes. There is a proposal for a land value tax. Some other taxes have also been considered, including one on disposal of plastics. Will the finance Minister provide an update on progress made on bringing forward a land value tax? And will the finance Minister provide an update on progress made on bringing forward other new taxes? Because there are great opportunities in the taxation system to make it fairer.

May I thank the Finance Committee’s clerking team and the Chair, Llyr Gruffydd, for their work in drawing this report together? This is an area that is new to us as a committee, of course, as well as being new to us as a Senedd and as a nation. We have been learning and developing our own expertise, as we have dealt with these taxation issues and in preparing to implement fiscal devolution in Wales. So, I have just a few comments in recommending the conclusions and recommendations made in this report, and I look forward to seeing our latest taxation powers coming into force in just a few days’ time. Of course, we are having this debate on the report earlier than normal because of that particular timetable, and I’m grateful to my fellow Members of the Assembly’s Business Committee for allowing this debate to be staged today.

I will deal with the two conclusions of the report in the wrong order, if you like. Conclusion 2—the fact the committee recognises the work undertaken in establishing the Welsh Revenue Authority anew, and they, of course, are dealing with the implementation of the land transaction tax and the landfill disposals tax, which are 12 months old now. As we heard from the Chair, the team is exceptionally professional and exceptionally exciting at the WRA and they made quite an impression on us when we visited. Of course, in looking at recommendation 1, which deals with workforce planning, I think in setting the bar so high in terms of what’s been done within the WRA in that first year, the challenge will be to maintain that standard. It became clear to us as a committee that the professionalism and experience of the workforce and the individuals driving that workforce was crucially important, and we will look forward to annual updates as to how that standard is being maintained.

In returning, then, to conclusion 1, I would like to echo what’s said there, namely that the committee is deeply disappointed in the Secretary of State’s lack of engagement on the constitutional impact of fiscal devolution in Wales. I tend to feel that the attitude of the Secretary of State towards us as an institution is disgraceful. There’s a copy here of the letter sent by the Secretary of State to the Chair of the Finance Committee, where he mentions being accountable to Parliament in Westminster and not to the National Assembly. Well, the National Assembly for Wales is a democratically elected body representing the interests of the people of Wales. If this Assembly and its committee see fit to hold anyone to account, it is our responsibility to do that, and it’s not for Alun Cairns or any other Minister of the state to set himself above accountability to the people of Wales. I can't make that point any stronger.

He is willing, apparently, to speak to individuals as Assembly Members about this issue. He is willing to provide evidence to the Welsh Affairs Select Committee in Westminster on the issue. So, he’s willing to engage with the issue and to answer questions, but the only conclusion that I can draw is that he is insulting in his attitude towards this organisation. I'm surprised to see him try to place walls between the Welsh taxation regime and the taxation regime that is still being run centrally at a UK level. There is interaction between processes in Wales and processes in Westminster, and it is entirely crucial that we can ask questions of Wales’s representative in Westminster and that he hears directly from us, as a democratically elected body here in Wales, exactly what our concerns are and the kind of assurances that we're seeking on a range of issues relating to taxation powers.

Moving on very briefly, I'm very concerned about the lack of understanding that people have of Welsh rates of income tax as they're being introduced this weekend. There are questions to be asked as to how we can raise awareness as we move forward.

I will say in conclusion, to respond to comments by Mike Hedges as to what is likely to happen to Welsh rates of income tax, and how difficult it could be politically to make a decision to increase or reduce taxes, there is value in simply having that devolution, because it puts pressure on government to work with more focus. But I do look forward in years to come to see us developing a Welsh approach to dealing with taxation. There will be further taxation powers devolved, and things will be doable in terms of income tax rates through making changes to other taxes. But those are issues for the future. We're at the beginning of the journey and I am pleased to receive applause from someone's telephone at the back here, but I'm also pleased to recommend this report to the Assembly.

Like other Members this afternoon, I very much welcome the process we've been following over the last few years. It certainly has been a journey that this place has been on, from the founding of an Assembly in 1999 to becoming a Parliament that raises taxes in 2019. I very much welcome the fact that we have seen the devolution of these powers now. I was never one of these people who believed that we required a referendum to do that, and I was certainly very pleased that we have been able to move forward with this accountability and proper form of governance in Wales.

I'd like, with your permission, Deputy Presiding Officer, to make three substantive points this afternoon. The first is, like others this afternoon, to congratulate officials and staff of the various organisations who have worked together to ensure that this has been a smooth transfer over the last few years. Sometimes the whole process of devolution can be something like pulling teeth, and can be an extraordinarily difficult task. Certainly when I've spoken to UK Ministers about the devolution of additional powers, they've made it appear to be some Herculean task that is virtually impossible to achieve within a century. So the devolution of these responsibilities on taxation has moved relatively quickly and very smoothly, and I hope that will be a lesson for the future, but we certainly need to congratulate the staff and officials who have done so.

The second point I'd wish to make is that made by the Member for Anglesey in his contribution. The report makes a point of the committee's disappointment with the decisions and actions of the Secretary of State. It is my clear view, and my experience as a Minister in this place tells me, that there is no role for the Wales Office in today's United Kingdom. As a Minister I cannot think of a single occasion when the Wales Office has been an aid to me or has enabled the proper discharge of governance. What has always worked on every occasion is the direct inter-governmental relationship between Welsh and UK Ministers. I can think of not a single occasion when the Wales Office has helped the governance of this country, and the resignation today of somebody we've never heard of, who barely visited this country and performed absolutely no duty that anybody's been able to identify, demonstrates that that office has outlived its usefulness. The inability of the Secretary of State to travel to Cardiff to give evidence and to be scrutinised, which I think is what he's really trying to avoid, is more evidence, if it's needed, that it is time to move forward to proper UK structures and proper structures of governance that are not owned by the UK Government, but are shared between the Governments of the UK. I hope that we'll be able to do that in due course.

The third point I'd like to make is that this process has moved relatively smoothly, but to what purpose? To what purpose? Is the purpose simply to hold us to account for taking the same decisions as are taken by the Treasury? Or is the purpose for us to do something different, to reflect our own values and our own beliefs? I see there are three Ministers on the front bench—health, education and finance—and I'm lucky to have worked with all three of them at different times, and all three of them—[Interruption.] Okay, let's not go there now. But all three of them will remember the conversations we've had over cash, over spending, and the very difficult decisions that we've had to take over recent years. I do not believe that austerity is a correct policy choice, and I do not believe that austerity has succeeded in its stated objectives. But then neither do the Tories anymore.

So, what do we do? Do we simply continue to tax at current levels or do we actually say, 'We believe in public services. We want to protect public services. We want to invest in public services. We want to invest in the people of this country, the communities of this country and the services of country and this country's future'? And in that case, we have to have the courage to argue for taxation as well. Fair taxation that will enable us to provide the services that we require and the services that the people of Wales want. We cannot stand here making speeches about austerity and then deliver austerity through our decisions. We cannot have our cake and eat it. We've been telling UK Ministers that through Brexit and we have to accept that ourselves. If you believe in public services, then you must also argue for the taxation to pay for them. But also, let us tax in a way that reflects our values. I spent some years persuading previous finance Ministers, when they were publishing their Treasury papers, that our values should come through, should shine through our taxation policy as well. I failed to persuade any finance Minister of the importance of sustainability as a principle of taxation—I hope I'll have more luck with the current finance Minister, but I failed to persuade her predecessors—because I think it is important.

But it is important also that we recognise a declining tax base. We discussed in questions earlier the potential impact of Brexit. We talk here about Brexit as being a national disaster for this country, but it is also a disaster for our services and our ability to deliver public services. It's easy enough to say that we will not see the dividend that we were promised on the side of a bus for the national health service, but we're going to have to pay for that. And if that is the case, what does that do to our taxation policy?

I can see that I've tried your patience long enough, Deputy Presiding Officer. But I hope that we will have a debate about the nature of taxation in the future that will reflect our values, and which also will reflect our ambitions.

Thank you. Can I now call the Minister for Finance and Trefnydd, Rebecca Evans?

Thank you. I very much welcome today's debate, and I'd like to put on record my thanks to the Finance Committee for their report and for providing us with the opportunity to have this discussion today, and for the very constructive way in which the committee has engaged with this agenda throughout. I'll be responding formally to the committee's report, but I can say today that I'm pleased the committee has recognised in their report the good work undertaken in establishing the Welsh Revenue Authority. This good work has continued into operations, and the WRA's approach to tax administration has been acknowledged in the recent report by the FSB, 'Funding Prosperity: Creating a New Tax System in Wales', which, again, we discussed earlier on today.

I note the committee's recommendation that annual updates should be provided on the WRA's approach to retention of knowledge and expertise in the organisation. Work is already under way in this area, including the development of induction plans, business continuity plans, detailed guidance, and a formal knowledge-capture process for those leaving the organisation.

I'd be happy to provide an update to committee on the implementation and ongoing running costs of Welsh rates of income tax. Ensuring value for money for Welsh taxpayers remains a priority of the Welsh Government, and my officials will continue to scrutinise costs associated with implementing the new arrangements, and I'm grateful to Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs, which has shown a commitment to keeping costs to an absolute minimum.

My officials have been working closely with their counterparts in HMRC to ensure that communication and engagement activity is joined up. Evaluation has been taking place throughout the campaign to help adjust and refine our approach as necessary. And a more formal evaluation using the Government Communication Service evaluation framework will take place shortly.

I note the committee's disappointment that the Secretary of State for Wales has been unable or unwilling to engage with the committee in considering the introduction of the partial devolution of income tax in Wales. I agree with the committee's conclusion that as income tax remains a reserved tax, it would be appropriate for the Secretary of State to answer questions on the implementation process. And I would just comment that I was very pleased to provide evidence to the Welsh Affairs Select Committee on the devolution of air passenger duty very recently.

The introduction of Welsh rates of income tax this Saturday will mark the completion of the programme of work—the programme of fiscal devolution brought about by the Wales Act 2014. It will follow the successful implementation of made-in-Wales taxes a year ago—land transaction tax and landfill disposals tax, collected by the Welsh Revenue Authority—and our acquisition of new capital and revenue borrowing powers. We are also drawing on the 2014 Act to explore potential new taxes and the ways in which they could support our wider policy ambitions.

Of course, this work began well before 2014 with the reports by the Holtham commission and the Silk commission, which recommended that the Welsh Government and National Assembly should gain significantly greater abilities and responsibilities to manage the Welsh budget. Alongside our tax powers, we have gained financial responsibility for non-domestic rates, and there have been essential changes to our block grant to provide a Barnett floor and to ensure appropriate adjustments for the devolved tax revenue.

The devolution of tax powers provides the Welsh Government with a range of opportunities to develop a progressive approach to taxation, which is better tailored to Wales's needs. The tax policy framework, published in 2017 by the then Cabinet Secretary for finance, and the annual work plans published since have emphasised this Government's commitment to take a strategic approach to tax policy. This is now being delivered through our work to manage existing and newly devolved taxes, as well as our evolving approach to develop new taxes.

The tax policy work plan I published on 27 February fulfills the commitment given in the tax policy framework to ensure that tax-related proposals are considered robustly and in alignment with Cabinet's principles. It is in line with the principle to develop tax policy through collaboration and involvement, providing a vehicle for more open discussion with stakeholders about the direction of Welsh tax policy. The research areas in the work plan support the commitment in the national strategy to use tax powers to strengthen the link between economic growth and funding for public services, and to do so in a way that supports business and is fair.

Together with the block grant, Welsh taxes will fund the vital public services on which many people in society depend. When Welsh rates of income tax are introduced, the decisions about some £5 billion of tax revenue collected in Wales will be made in Wales by central or local government. With the powers devolved to Wales, we have the opportunity to look at taxes collectively. This will change the nature of our debates about revenues and budgets in the future, and I look forward to these discussions.

I'm happy to support this motion this afternoon and I'd like to thank all Members who have contributed to the debate and to join them and echo the complimentary comments that they've made about the officials who have worked on this project. Thank you.

Thank you. Can I now call on Llyr Gruffydd to reply to the debate?

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I'd like to thank as well everyone who's taken part in this debate. I think it reflects the consensus that exists around the way that the implementation has been delivered. Nick and others have mentioned the FSB report, and their conclusions chimed very much with those of the committee. But, it isn't just the FSB, the Wales Audit Office of course, when they reported on the WRA at the end of last year, said that it has

'operated effectively to date to administer devolved taxes in Wales...The Welsh Treasury has appropriate arrangements in place to obtain assurance over HMRC's implementation of Welsh Rates of Income Tax'.

I think the message is so far so good, but as I underlined in my opening remarks, we mustn't take anything for granted, and we obviously need to retain the same level of vigilance that anyone would expect of us in this process. There was reference as well from Nick, I think, to the need to grow capacity within Wales now because this is a new discussion emerging now. We're hearing bits of it today, aren't we, in terms of what future taxation policy will look like under future Welsh Governments, and clearly we're starting maybe to tease out some manifesto commitments in the run up to 2021.

It is important, as Alun Davies said, that tax policy represents our values, and as Mike Hedges said also, it's a mean of delivering policy outcomes, isn't it? It isn't just a means of generating revenue, and that is very much going to be part of that evolutionary process that we as parties engaging in the political discourse in the run-up to the next election will be engaging in as well.

There are certainly lessons to be learnt from Scotland, as we heard during this debate. For once, the second mover advantage is quite positive, because they can make the mistakes and we can learn from them. That's certainly something that we need to take advantage of.

I just want to make a comment as well about the cross-border issue—there have been a few references to that. That is actually a piece of work that the committee is looking to undertake sometime around the autumn, in that we look at the effects of different—[Interruption.] I'm being applauded now by somebody's phone—the different impacts of differences in tax rates across borders, and I think it'll be useful for us to have that so that we can bottom-out some of those concerns that are being flagged up as issues for some, not so for others, as we heard. But I think that would be a useful contribution as a committee that we can make to that whole discussion. 

The WRA, as Rhun ap Iorwerth said, has set a very high bar, but, of course, we wouldn't expect any different. And it will be a challenge to maintain that, but’s that, of course, is what I think we need to ensure will now happen. And the response from the Secretary of State, as nearly everyone has said, to the request to give evidence—the numerous requests over recent years to appear before the Finance Committee—is very disappointing. The offer to meet with us individually undermines, I think, whichever rationale the Secretary of State has for not appearing before the committee, because it is tempting for us as eight Assembly Members to meet individually eight times. We’ll go to London to do that if we have to, and, certainly, the committee will go anywhere in order to ensure that there is transparency and that there is accountability from that direction as well.

The basic message, I think, from me here is: if we can continue over the coming years to put fiscal devolution into practice in the way that it has been implemented so far, then, in my opinion, we will, as an institution, as we approach the twentieth anniversary of this Assembly, be worthy, I hope, of being called a Senedd. Thank you very much.

Thank you. The proposal is to note the committee's report. Does any Member object? No. Therefore, the motion is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

We now move on to item 8 on the agenda this afternoon, which is the Welsh Conservative debate on community mental health teams. I call on Darren Millar to move the motion. 

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I'm very pleased to move the motion today in my name on the order paper. I think that some of the debates that we've had on mental health issues here in the National Assembly have seen the Assembly at its very best, coming together in order to highlight some of the challenges that we face collectively and bringing together people from different political persuasions to try to have and agree a consensus in terms of the approach that we can have on some of these issues. Indeed, there has been a lot of common ground in recent years. We were, of course, very fortunate to  have the Mental Health (Wales) Measure 2010, which was put forward by my colleague and former Assembly Member Jonathan Morgan some years ago, which was supported by all political parties in the Senedd at that time. And, of course, we've had a number of debates on mental health, including those where we've had Assembly Members talk about some of their own struggles and challenges with mental health problems. And I think they've been some of the most powerful debates, frankly, that I certainly as an Assembly Member have experienced. 

We've also come together, of course, to try to support the aims and objectives of the Time to Change campaign, to tackle the stigma around mental health. And so it's in that spirit that we bring forward this debate this afternoon, and we're very grateful to acknowledge the support that we've had from Mind Cymru and from the British Association for Counselling and Psychotherapy, which have indicated to us that they fully support the motion that's before us. 

Now, we've had debates on many aspects of secondary and primary mental health care, but I don't recall ever having a specific debate focusing on the issue that we want to talk about today, and that is community mental health teams. And I think it's important that we look at this issue, and very timely that we look at this issue, because, of course, we have seen the identification of a number of problems with community mental health teams as a result of the Healthcare Inspectorate Wales and Care Inspectorate Wales joint report, which was published in February. But I just wanted to take the opportunity to remind people what community mental health teams are about. 

Now, from their name, you might think that they're part of the primary care system, because they're based in the community, but that of course is not the case—they are firmly part of the secondary care approach to mental health. They are multidisciplinary teams that very often involve psychiatric nurses, psychologists, therapists, counsellors, support workers and social workers, who come together in order to support people with quite acute and difficult mental health problems—complex and severe mental health problems.

I mentioned a few moments ago that there had been this joint report, which the healthcare inspectorate and the care inspectorate had produced. Some of the findings in that report were very, very concerning. The report found that there was a disparity and a variation in the consistency and the availability of services provided by community mental health teams across Wales, and it's some of those issues that I want to just focus on for a few moments, if I can.

One of the problems that was identified was that there was a difficulty in the referral system—that it was pretty inconsistent, and that not everybody was able to access services in a timely fashion when they needed to be able to access them. It was clear from the report that general practitioners were not always clear on how to refer directly into their community mental health teams and very often were referring to hospital teams instead.

The report said that there was a need for a single point of access, from a referral point of view, so that people knew exactly where to present their patients when they were in need of care and support. Of course, this chimes very well with some of the findings and recommendations that we've seen from Assembly committees that have looked into our mental health services as well. We remember that it wasn't that long ago that we debated the Health, Social Care and Sport Committee's report on suicide prevention, which also highlighted this issue of needing to have some clear pathways and some timely access to support when it was required.

The report found also that many people find difficulties in accessing community mental health teams, particularly during a crisis. While there were some parts of Wales where people were getting immediate support, in other parts of Wales there were people who were struggling to access services, particularly GP out-of-hours services. Of course, a number of people were reporting that they had to make a number of separate presentations in an emergency department before they were getting access to the sort of crisis support that they needed.

I think it was just two fifths of those who were surveyed as part of that work who said that when they contacted their mental health teams—their community mental health teams—during a crisis, only two thirds were actually getting the help that they needed. That's why we have made one of our calls in this debate the need for crisis teams to be available 24/7—around the clock—in all our major emergency departments across Wales, so that the support is there when it's needed in a crisis. We need that uniform access and pathway to that crisis support.

It's very difficult to understand precisely what the level of demand is for community mental health teams, because, of course, there's no data currently published by the Welsh Government in relation to them. Fortunately, Mind Cymru have done some work on this, through freedom of information requests. It suggests that between 2014-15 and 2017-18, referrals into community mental health teams have grown by around 18 per cent, and that is over 4,000 additional referrals going into those teams, currently standing—or in 2017-18—at 26,711 referrals in a year. Now, that is less than the actual number of referrals across Wales, because, unfortunately, there's one health board that was unable to give any information about the number of referrals that were going into their community mental health teams, and, unfortunately, that's the only health board that was in special measures—the Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board.

We know that Betsi is in special measures because of concerns around its delivery of mental health services, so I think it's particularly troubling that that is the one health board that doesn't seem to be able to have a grasp on the total number of referrals, because, of course, you need to know what the referrals are in order that you can plan to meet the demand that's presenting itself to those teams, so that you can manage people's care—remember, these are very vulnerable people—in an effective and safe way. So, I think it is concerning that there is a serious lack of data, and that's one of the reasons we will be supporting the Plaid Cymru amendments that have come forward, one of which refers, of course, to the need to publish data on a regular basis. 

Now, we talk a lot in this Chamber about the need for parity between mental and physical health services, and I think it's absolutely right that we should have equality between those two services, to make sure that we are measuring performance against similar suites of targets. But it's clear that here in Wales there are too many people at the moment waiting for far too long for access to talking therapies. I know it's a matter of concern to people in all political parties here, including members of the Government. And those waits have been highlighted in the HIW and care inspectorate report, and it can be anything up to two years. Now, when people are referred to secondary care services for support, they need that support in a timely manner, and waiting, frankly, for two years before they get access to the treatment that they need is clearly not good enough. 

Now, there are targets that the Welsh Government has for both local primary mental health support services and, indeed, for community mental health teams and secondary services to meet, but what is strange is that, usually, if you're in a level of more severe need, you would expect that you would need a quicker intervention, so the target should effectively be shorter. That's not the case in terms of the targets that the NHS in Wales is currently operating to in respect of mental health services, which I think is something that we need to work to address. 

For example, local primary mental health support services, which are there to support those with mild to moderate or very stable, severe enduring mental health needs have a target of 28 days from presenting themselves to a primary care team to the date on which they are assessed. That is the target period—they've got to be assessed within 28 days. And then there's another target that there is 28 days from the date of that assessment until they must receive treatment. Truncated—56 days being the maximum that someone should have to wait from the time that they are referred to the time that they receive treatment. 

But for secondary care services, including access to community mental health teams—and these are people with more severe and more complex mental health needs—the target is 26 weeks from assessment to treatment—not from referral to treatment, but from assessment to treatment. Now, that, to me, clearly suggests that there's a problem in the system somewhere in terms of what the level of priority ought to be. Now, I appreciate there are going to be challenges in being able to bring that target time down, but it is concerning that we're not there at the moment.  

And, of course, performance against these targets is not published routinely. I'm assuming it's measured somewhere by the Government, but we don't have the data to be able to demonstrate whether the NHS in Wales is meeting these targets, and I think that we need to do something about that. There was a clear commitment in the 'Together for Mental Health' delivery plan, published for 2012-16, that said that we would have a mental health core data set by December 2014. We don't have that yet, and, in fact, I think it's being kicked down the road to 2022, which is clearly not ambitious enough. Neither have we seen annual reports for quite some time, in terms of the delivery of the Together for Mental Health programme. That was a commitment that was made—that we would have annual reports—but we haven't had them. 

So, clearly, things need to change. We very much hope that the Assembly will support the motion before us, and we will accept those amendments that I referred to earlier. Thank you. 

I've selected the three amendments to the motion, and I call on the Minister for Health and Social Services to formally move amendment 1 tabled in the name of Rebecca Evans.  

Formally. 

I call on Helen Mary Jones to move amendments 2 and 3 tabled in the name of Rhun ap Iorwerth. 

Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. Can I thank the Conservatives for bringing forward this important motion? I welcome the opportunity to take part in this debate, and I'd like to associate myself with much of what Darren Millar has said. I think it was a very thoughtful portrayal of what is a very complex problem. I think, particularly, we can all agree that there is something really wrong with the waiting time targets. When somebody is seriously mentally ill, they need help immediately, and there is a real risk that, if somebody presents asking for help and they don't get it immediately, their condition will worsen. If it's got a comorbidity with drug and alcohol, as often is the case, you will have people whose self-medication may get out of control—that is one of the reasons I believe that we end up seeing such a high proportion of our prison population being people with mental health issues, because sometimes those mental health issues are not addressed in a timely way. And I say that in the co-operative spirit in which Darren Millar has put forward this debate. I think we would all aspire here for better and we have to look to the Minister to deliver that.

I won't repeat the comments that Darren has made. I just want to speak very briefly, Llywydd, to our two amendments and to begin by saying we won't support the Government amendment, because we think Darren Millar has made a very strong case for the need to have co-located emergency crisis teams in A&E departments. I have myself seen some very distressing situations, very busy A&E doctors trying to deal with young people, particularly, presenting with very serious mental health issues. They haven't got the capacity or the skills to do it and they need somebody to be able to come in straight away, somewhere where they can refer straight away. I can think of one particular case where I had to sit in A&E with a very, very highly distressed young person who was suicidal, and there was nowhere for her to be taken, except at that stage—and this was some years ago, thank goodness—potentially a police cell. You can imagine how awful that was for her but also for the medical staff that were dealing with her. So, we believe the case for co-located teams is made.

If I can turn to our own amendments and amendment 3, there is no doubt that successive changes in the social security system, which, of course, were begun by Lord Freud under Tony Blair—the work capacity assessments—have hit people with mental health issues very hard. It is easy to see if somebody has, say, a physical disability that means they need to use a wheelchair. It is much harder to see how debilitating a mental health problem can be. I have to say that, as an elected Member in this place, I have never failed to win an appeal, when I have supported a person with a mental health problem, from their original Atos test—where, of course, the tests are undertaken by people who are not qualified and they don't know, frankly, very often, what they're doing—and I'm sure there are many of us in the room who've been able to support successful appeals. But I am left with the question about people who do not know, who don't have somebody with them who can seek that kind of advocacy.

These tests were clearly designed by people who do not understand the experience of invisible disability; they don't understand fluctuating conditions. And the very process of forcing people with an ongoing mental health issue to repeatedly be reassessed is actually—and I can think again, and I'm sure others in this room—exacerbating mental ill health. We need to challenge this and one practical way in which we could do that here is to ensure that community mental health teams across Wales have really strong relationships with local benefits advice, so that those people who have to go through those assessments—much as we might like to see them gone—have some proper professional support. it isn't always possible for them—

Will you take an intervention? 

I'd be very happy to take an intervention. 

Do you think that—? I think you make a very strong case that mental health problems can be linked to welfare reform. Do you think that devolution of the administration of welfare could help, if we could shape some of those assessments and procedures ourselves? 

I think, absolutely, it could. I think we might bring a very different set of values to those assessments and I'm very glad that the Welsh Government has finally agreed to keep that under review.

I'll turn very briefly, with the Llywydd's indulgence, to our amendment 2, which looks at the case for data. If I can just give one example very briefly, we've been raising for a long time the waiting times in CAMHS. The then First Minister rightly said that there were probably too many young people on the CAMHS pathway who didn't need to be there. A decision was made in 2017 to remove some 1,700 children from the pathway—around 74 per cent of them were on waiting lists at the time. Now, that may have been absolutely the right thing to do for those individual young people, but my point is that we don't really know—we don't really know where they went, we don't really know what their outcomes were, and we don't know if they actually got more appropriate interventions.

Darren Millar has already referred to some of the issues around the lack of information, the lack of data—I am absolutely shocked, though sadly not surprised, that there is a local health board that simply can't tell people about the number of referrals to their community mental health teams. I'm sure the Minister would agree with all of us that this isn't acceptable and I would urge him again today to accelerate that 2022 deadline for effective collection of data. We cannot solve the problem if we don't know how big it is and we don't know what it looks like. Even with the best will in the world even the most gifted Minister in the world cannot do that.

So, I'll end my remarks, Llywydd, by thanking again the Conservatives, thanking them for accepting our amendments, and commending this motion and our amendments to the Chamber.

I am grateful for the opportunity to speak this afternoon on the findings of this report, produced jointly by Healthcare Inspectorate Wales and Care Inspectorate Wales. The findings make grim reading. The report found disparity and variability in the consistency and availability of treatment, care and support provided by community mental health teams across Wales. It makes 23 recommendations over 40 areas to address the current failings in the system.

I would like to address my remarks today to problems facing patients in accessing the services they need. I am concerned that patients are often unable to access the care they need in a timely manner or close to their home. The most recent figures show that just over half of patients were seen within the 28-day referral-to-treatment time target for mental health services. Nearly 6 per cent of patients had to wait longer than six months for treatment. Waiting times for talking therapies also cause concern, with 16 per cent of patients being forced to wait over 28 days for this vital service. One of the significant inequalities and inconsistencies highlighted in the report relates to 24/7 crisis care across the different health authorities. Some health boards, such as Cwm Taf, operate a telephone helpline for anyone experiencing a mental health crisis. This service is available 24 hours a day. However, other health boards operate this service for just 12 hours a day, and some of these helplines exist only to support people already known to the service.

There are inconsistencies even within the health boards. Abertawe Bro Morgannwg health board provides a 24-hour service for people in Swansea but only a 12-hour service for residents of Bridgend or Neath Port Talbot. This postcode lottery crisis care cannot continue. It is unfair and unacceptable.

Crisis care for children and young people are equally impacted by significant inequalities. Only three health boards in Wales provide crisis teams for 12 hours a day, seven days a week. In Powys, no services are available on weekends or after 5 p.m. on weekdays. On the subject of services for young people, I have to raise the issue of the lack of beds for young people with high-risk mental health problems. There are only three specialist in-patient units in Wales, with 51 places. Since December, Welsh patients have been removed from Regis Healthcare in Ebbw Vale because of concerns about their safety. As a result, this leaves only 27 beds elsewhere. Healthcare Inspectorate Wales have described the shortage as 'unacceptable'.

Issues also exist at the other two units. Tŷ Llidiard in Bridgend is under restricted criteria for referrals until improvement work is carried out, and the unit in Abergele has recruitment issues. As a result of these shortages, young people are not always able to receive timely care close to where they live and are having to be placed out of the area. Concerns about capacity were first raised by the Welsh Government in 2013, six years ago. It is clear that Welsh Government must, as a matter of urgency, review the demand for these services against the ability and capacity at CAMHS units to ensure that young people can receive the treatment they need. Early diagnosis is very important in mental health, Presiding Officer. If it is diagnosed, either by family practitioners or others, it can be cured early rather than leaving it too late, and, if the treatment comes later, it takes much longer to treat the person for the rest of their life.

Presiding Officer, I hope the Minister will accept the recommendations in this report and act to ensure that people with mental illness receive fair and equitable treatment irrespective of which part of this nation they live in. Thank you.

Llywydd, I'd like to officially thank the Tories for bringing this motion forward. I agree with Darren Millar's view, and I acknowledge it. It's in the spirit of working to ensure we get the right services for some of the most vulnerable people that this debate has been put forward, and that's crucial.

Last month, I chaired the cross-party group on mental health in which the report was discussed. The following day, actually, following that meeting, I raised it in the business statement with the Trefnydd, where I sought a statement from the health Minister as to how he would respond to the report, and I was informed that perhaps by the end of the week I would get a response, and I welcome the opportunity to ask the same question again today and see if we can now actually get a response from the Welsh Government to that report, because we haven't had it yet.

Now, it's essential that people with mental health needs as well as their carers and their families—we haven't mentioned their carers and their families yet—get the best care and support possible, and it's concerning that the report by HIW and CIW that was published actually shows there are inconsistencies in care across Wales, and stresses that there's a need for vast improvement in the community health teams in order to ensure people experiencing mental health needs and their families receive the best care and support.

We are increasingly moving to a world where care back in the community is the main aim, and, if we are to achieve that, we must ensure that people do feel safe and in control when they go back into their own environment. We cannot afford to not address the key findings in this report. And the foreword says it all, really. The Member for South Wales East, Oscar, actually stated the issues about inconsistency, availability of treatment, care provided in the community—said it all, and, in fact, if you read the report, we hear the words 'variable' and 'inconsistent' so many times, and it is important that Welsh Government, health boards and local authorities need to carefully consider and examine all areas highlighted in the report and act on the recommendations so that people living with mental health illness will receive equitable care wherever they live in Wales. 

People described the service as cumbersome and difficult to navigate. They referred to a lack of understanding of different referral criteria, which meant that referrals, especially from GPs, were submitting the wrong information, leading to delays in accessing assessments and support, and, more worryingly, there were concerns expressed over access to services for people experiencing mental health crises, which Darren Millar highlighted in his opening points and in his motion. Half the people didn't actually know who to contact out of hours, and that's frightening—to think that, if someone has a mental health illness, families and carers don't know who to access to help that person. We have to address that. 

There were several questions raised in the report over the delivery of safe and effective care. Please read those words: safe and effective care for these vulnerable people. And it's already been highlighted about the lack of data, but also the involvement of family members or carers in producing the actual care plans for those individuals. The report highlighted that almost half of family members or carers weren’t involved in the discussions leading to the decisions for the community health team support to be discontinued. So, they were being discharged with over half of the family members not actually being involved in those discussions. A third said that they weren't provided with information—. Sorry. Less than a third said that they were provided with information of who to contact. That is not acceptable. If you're caring for a person with a mental health illness and you're putting them back in the community, because you're discharging them, without support, the least you can do is to ensure their family members and their carers are informed as to what action to take if a crisis arises. We need to address that if we really respect the individuals who are facing those challenges. We often in this Chamber—. Darren said—you're quite right—we often in the Chamber highlight the vulnerability of these individuals and the actions we as an Assembly should be taking to protect them, and this report is saying we're not doing that. We should, therefore, request that our Government ensure that they respond to all the recommendations in this report to ensure that those people are able to depend upon the services available via the community mental health teams and all other teams to provide the care they would expect—the care I would expect if it was me or my family.

In concluding their findings, the CIW and HIW noted:

'There is still significant improvement required across Community Mental Health services to be in a position to meet the vision set out in Together for Mental Health'.

I look forward to that coming to fruition. Minister, I do know that one of the big issues is about resource. We've been talking about talking therapies—it's about resource. Sometimes, we haven't got the resources to do that. I accept that, but we need to start developing those resources. We haven't got enough, so let's get them in place, let's do the training, let's get people to be able to deliver those services. We have to be in a position, as a nation, to support people with mental health illness to ensure that, as a community, they're not left vulnerable in their own homes.

I think it's fairly evident that, here today, many of our Members, cross party, recognise the urgency for continued improvement in our provision for mental healthcare support. We are all too aware that mental health problems do not discriminate; they effect mothers, children, fathers, expectant mothers, young people, adults, the middle age, the elderly generation and those with other ailments and diagnosed conditions compounding the problem. While attending to mental health requires a considerable degree of self-care and the implementation of healthy lifestyle habits, for victims of adverse and traumatic experiences and severe mental health crises, proper mental health intervention and care is essential. Yet, our mental health services and the current organisation and management of our health boards are currently, in some instances, too ill-equipped to deal with this demand. The quality of care that is required to prevent a further increase of suicide rates—among young people and male adults in particular—substance abuse and debilitating mental health illness is profound.

As an Assembly Member—a constituency Member with an office in the town of Llandudno—sadly, I see too much anecdotal evidence of people who simply cannot access mental health support or any form of counselling or anything, at a time when they present at a time of major crisis. Indeed, Presiding Officer, the training and retention of qualified medical staff and professionals is one of my chief concerns. According to Mind, as part of the GP training curriculum, currently, just one of 21 clinical modules are focused on mental health, and the number of rotations that trainee doctors complete in a mental health environment has been decreasing in the last five years. It's going backwards. Yet, these trends are not reflecting that mental health issues are now the modern-day epidemic and the fact that a third of GP appointments now relate to mental health issues.

So, I ask the Minister, in all honesty and in all sincerity, how can the Welsh Government ensure that trainee medical professionals and doctors are receiving the training—the relevant training—that is really needed for our current generational needs, whilst—

Will you take an intervention?

Yes, sure.

Do you agree with what my colleague Helen Mary Jones said—that many people's problems with mental health could well be linked to welfare reform? And if you do accept that, do you accept that if we had control over some aspects of welfare reform here, we could mitigate some of those worse aspects of it?

What I would say, with respect, to the Member is that there is a plethora of reasons why mental health issues—

But is welfare reform one of them?

And, to be honest, let's—. We are talking about mental health problems and how we, across this Chamber, can work towards—

Causes?

Welfare reform—let's have that debate another day. But I'm more concerned about my constituents who cannot access treatment and support when they need it, Leanne.

Furthermore, turning to the delivery of healthcare, I wish to draw particular attention to the disparate and unequal provision of crisis care and out-of-hours services. This regional discrepancy is epitomised by Swansea, which offers a 24/7 emergency telephone point, compared to Bridgend and Neath Port Talbot, which only run this service from 9 a.m. until 9 p.m. And, I'll be honest, I don't have any provision in Aberconwy that I know of, or my constituents know of, after 5 o'clock. People, when they present, when they feel at their lowest ebb—it can be at 2 o'clock in the morning, it can be at 4 o'clock in the afternoon, it can be at 7.15 of an evening, and we do not have those services in place. We do need a 365 24/7 support system somehow in Wales.

The crisis relief situation is even more alarming for children and young people. In Cwm Taf and Cardiff and Vale, CAMHS crisis teams are available from 10 a.m. to 10 p.m. seven days a week, yet in Powys no services are available on the weekends or after 5 p.m.. 'What justifies this variation?' I ask the Minister. Surely, equality to access to services should be an endemic thread running through any service that he provides as a health Minister.

Indeed, regarding management, the Chamber should also be aware of the accommodation issues for high-risk young people. My colleague Mohammad Asghar really elaborated well on the problems that are being highlighted in the lack of recruitment of people in the Abergele unit, which sees people—and it also sees local authorities and health boards spending hundreds of thousands of pounds when we're perfectly well-equipped, in terms of equipment and the buildings in Abergele, but we don't have the trained, qualified staff.

In Aberconwy, the cancellation of mental health appointments at very short notice due to a shortage of consultant psychiatrists and other specialist advocates has adversely affected patients at Nant y Glyn and Roslin. And when you do present with a mental health issue, to suddenly have your appointment cancelled is the most debilitating issue in the world, it really is. When raised as a matter of concern, little heed is taken.

Now, I look forward to the forthcoming 2019-22 'Together for Mental Health' delivery plan, but let this not be another delivery plan with ambitious targets and lots of words with very few actions. I would ask the Minister: please, concentrate on the needs of those with mental health issues across Wales, and let's be pioneers and champions for them, because they are a very integral part of our society.

I welcome the opportunity to contribute to this debate. If I shut my eyes, it could almost be groundhog day, because when I first came to this Chamber, I sat in this very chair and my colleague Jonathan Morgan sat where Nick Ramsay sits, and in the ballot for Measures at that time, he was lucky enough to win the ballot for the mental health Measure that came out. The Government took that mental health Measure on themselves, and it was subsequently introduced. One of the things, obviously, that the Measure was trying to achieve was an end to the postcode lottery that many people felt existed at the time. Some 10 years later, sadly, that postcode lottery, according to Healthcare Inspectorate Wales's report, clearly does still exist in many mental health services.

This isn't about scoring political points in any shape or form. I don't believe mental health is a political point, to be honest with you. I would find it remarkable if anyone from any political party was trying to do down mental health services or the provision of mental health services. It is a challenging environment to work in, especially when you look at the increased demand for those services. But it is vital that there is a coherent plan put in place to actually live up to the sentiments that were expressed in this Chamber some 10 years ago about cancelling out that postcode lottery, about understanding the significance of the demands on the services, whether that be in the community setting or in the acute setting. I do hope that the Minister, when he engages with the rounding up of the debate this afternoon, will give us confidence that, as a Minister and as a department—and across Government, in fact, because this isn't just about the health department, this is across Government—there is a collegial plan in place to actually lift those delivery targets so that people can, ultimately, get those waiting times down and achieve the response that they require when an emergency does happen and family members look for that support to support that loved one who finds themselves at that crisis point.

One of the things when the Youth Parliament was announced recently and when I met members of the Youth Parliament from my own elected area—each and every one of the members highlighted as their priority area mental health services for young people, and the delivery of mental health support in the school setting, in particular. One thing that the mental health Measure obviously didn't confer was that right on anyone under the age of 18. It was a point that we tried to look into at the time, and it is a growing and troubling area of concern that you look at the wait times for young people to access help and support, you look at the wait times for the families to get that support, and it's just not happening, Minister. I do hope, again, that in your response to his, you can give us some insight into what developments you are putting in place to support people in education who do struggle with their mental health, because, obviously, we do know that is a growing area of concern. As I said, when I met members who were elected from my own electoral area to the Youth Parliament, they were deeply, deeply concerned about this area and listed it as one of their top three priorities.

Also, I do believe that, looking at the report and in particular looking at some of the language that comes out, there is provision, obviously, and rightly so, for the provision of mental health services in English and Welsh, but as a representative for South Wales Central—and the Minister himself represents one of the most diverse communities in Wales, Cardiff South and Penarth—it is important to make sure that languages are covered in the provision and people aren't excluded by the language they speak. I appreciate this is a very difficult area to work with, because sometimes you're talking very few people, but there does need to be better delivery of translation and translation services in the mental health field, so that people don't get excluded by the lack of an adequate translator to be there at the point of need and in the community.

And if I could end on the final point as well, I do think that one of the things that would help GPs in particular deliver a better service is especially around talking therapies, because this is another area that I have a personal interest in. I do regret that very often people get treated medically through a drug or some other form, when talking therapies can be so helpful to people and actually keep them away from the acute sector, if they access the talking therapy in a timely manner. And there is no national register available for professionals—therapists or counsellors—to be on. There are many recognised bodies that give accreditation, but if you're a GP, for example, there is no national register there that you can access and signpost someone to, to access that support via talking therapies. I do think that's an anomaly in the system that—and I might stand to be corrected—could be rectified relatively simply by putting that in place. So, I do hope that the Minister might engage in that point as well in his address back to the Assembly today. But I do welcome the opportunity to contribute to this debate, and in particular the spirit the debate has been taken in, because when one in four of us will have an episode of mental ill health through our lifetime, it is incumbent on us as legislators that when we pass legislation it delivers, and when a problem presents itself we address it.

I call on the Minister for Health and Social Services, Vaughan Gething.

Thank you, Llywydd. I'm pleased to have an opportunity today to restate this Government's recognition of the importance of continuing to improve mental health services. I do want to say that I welcome the general tone of the debate today, with lots of thoughtful contributions, including those that I agree with and those where I don't agree with every single part. I think it is helpful to have a genuinely healthy debate where there are differences of view and, overall, I think, a shared ambition to see improvements in experience and outcomes through our mental health services, and, importantly, the point that this isn't just a matter for the health service. The improvements and the things that give people resilience around their mental health are often not about the health service itself.

Now, one of the major parts to today's motion and debate is the thematic report by Healthcare Inspectorate Wales and the Care Inspectorate Wales. It highlights key themes and issues arising from their joint inspections of community mental health teams. The joint inspections reflect the integrated nature of these services between local health boards and local authorities, but the thematic report focuses on adult services. We have, of course, discussed in-patient CAMHS earlier today in the topical question, and we have a large amount of work in train to try and improve mental health services at an earlier, more preventative stage in the joint ministerial task and finish group in response to the 'Mind over matter' report. The thematic report recognises that progress is being made, including increasing collaboration between health and social care and in providing a responsive service during a period where we are experiencing increased scrutiny and demand for mental health services. The report makes 23 recommendations for improvement, and I can confirm the Government will respond to each of those recommendations.

Now, in an initial response to the report, the chief exec of NHS Wales wrote to Healthcare Inspectorate Wales on 20 March. That set out the Welsh Government's expectations that health boards will engage with local authority partners to provide robust improvement plans as their response to the recommendations in the report, and I can confirm that supporting community mental health teams will be a priority area in our 'Together for Mental Health' delivery plan. We will consult on the delivery plan within the next few months, and the delivery plan will also take forward the recommendations from the recent review of care and treatment planning by the NHS delivery unit. To support these improvements,  we'll target additional investment over the next financial year. That will include funding to increase the range of and access to psychological therapies, and that will build on the additional £5.5 million made available in the year just ended.

The joint review also makes recommendations in relation to the Welsh community care information system. We've committed significant funds to support the implementation of this ICT system across our 22 local authorities and seven health boards. It addresses that information-sharing interface within health boards and between health boards and local authorities, including our community mental health team. I do want to respond to some of the points about the mental health core data set, which we are committed to finalising. It will include identifying appropriate and meaningful targets and developing a more outcome-focused approach to this work. These data items are being developed by a multi-agency national project steering board, and are currently being taken through the Welsh innovation standards board to ensure they're collected in a consistent way. I don't want to be explaining how the statistics we eventually produce are actually different in different parts of the country. The work is currently phased but is due to conclude by the end of this calendar year, and the data set will be captured within the Welsh community care informatics system. From a mental health perspective, we've employed staff to support work directly with teams across Wales throughout 2019 to pilot forms and data collection using our existing IT systems in preparation for the implementation within the Welsh community care information system. [Interruption.] I will.

This will include work to inform outcome-focused practice, capture service user experience and improve consistency in using outcome measures and to measure progress and recovery. That work we'll look to extend across all teams in 2020-21, so mental health data will be published on a regular basis when that system is properly and fully operational.

I'm grateful to receive an update on that, but obviously it's eight years after a clear commitment to introduce this core data set, and many people will feel that that is not sufficient regard or priority, frankly, in terms of doing this. Surely there are pieces of information that can be published in the interim—an interim suite, if you like, of targets—with some clear performance data attached to them before that core data set is published. Will you accept the ability to be able to produce something in the interim that is meaningful, perhaps against the performance of the targets that you've already got? I think it is a concern that there isn't sufficient information from health boards like Betsi—a board in special measures for its performance on mental health—and I'd be grateful if you could tell us: can you provide something in the interim, and particularly, can we get some information from Betsi?

I think there are a number of additional questions there, Llywydd. I can say, though, that we do already make performance data available. That's published, and I'm more than happy to consider again if there are things we could do in the interim. But my aim is to have a regular publication of data about mental health services that is genuinely useful, and, to do that, it has to take in engagement with a range of different people. I would much rather have something that is useful than something that is convenient or quick.

Now, the joint thematic review focused on community mental health teams. It's important to understand the overall demand for mental health services that has regularly been referred to in today's debate. Management data shows that crisis resolution and home treatment teams have seen an increase in both referral and assessment in the last two years. In the last year alone, community mental health services received around 20,000 referrals for crisis assessments, and there are, on average, an additional thousand referrals each month to local primary mental health support services when compared to 2013. In terms of activity, over 200,000 people have been seen by local primary mental health services since their introduction, with 100,000 people receiving therapeutic interventions. That increasing demand in part reflects a better understanding of mental health in our society, in part additional factors that are driving people to seek greater help for a potentially greater prevalence of mental health challenges, and a willingness to seek help that is actually a positive. This is also a result of our approach to provide more support in the community. We've seen an increase in the need for community-based services and we've seen a reduction in the number of people who need to be admitted to hospital.

In recognition of the increasing demand, we continue to spend more on mental health than any other part of our national health service. We continue to ring-fence mental health funding. In reality, we know that health boards spend more than the mental health ring fence, and since 2016-17, the increase in the ring fence has been 12.5 per cent. In the next financial year, the ring fence will be set at £679 million—a real and meaningful and sustained increase in funding. And that includes an additional £14.3 million of targeted investment to improve key priority areas, including child and adolescent mental health services, perinatal, psychological therapies, crisis and out-of-hours. And on crisis and out-of-hours services, this is a top priority for NHS Wales in the year ahead. It builds upon our previous work in establishing CAMHS crisis teams and adult psychiatric liaison services working at weekends and out-of-hours.

Now, I do understand and want to recognise and reiterate the comments about a parity of esteem between physical and mental health, and to restate our Government's commitment to achieving that—an equitable level of care, whether that be physical or mental health.

So, I welcome the continued focus upon mental health. I look forward to Members engaging in the next stage of 'Together for Mental Health' and the consultation it will have. We are committed to delivering real and sustainable improvements in services, experience and outcome. And we'll do so as rapidly as possible, in maintaining the quality of care that each of us would expect.

I call on David Melding to reply to the debate.

Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. Can I say that Darren Millar started this debate by saying that mental health debates are amongst the best debates we have in the Assembly? And the Minister generously acknowledged the constructive tone of this debate, and I think we would all agree that it's been very meaningful and apposite. Darren also went on to talk about the personal stories that several AMs over the years have given in terms of their own mental health issues—myself included—and I think this is very important in terms of public figures, and particularly celebrities, when they do speak out. It does allow this whole issue to be demystified, and it's very, very important. Darren then went on to talk about the 'Time to Change' campaign, which, of course, has that type of objective at its heart. Then he talked about this debate being important because we often overlook the importance of community mental health teams and, in particular, he highlighted the need for 24-hour, seven-day crisis teams, which other Members, and also the Minister, referred to.

Helen Mary said that waiting times are a real problem, and I think it is appropriate that we focus on that. That data needs to be improved and we need to bring forward the deadline for the new scheme of data as soon as possible. And the Minister spent some time talking about that in this response. 

Mohammad Asghar talked about the variability and inconsistency across Wales, which is a real challenge, I think—that we need to drive up standards in general and ensure that people get a really first-class service wherever they are in Wales. 

David Rees talked about the need for a timely response to the HIW/CIW joint report, and he invited the Minister to say when the Government would respond. I'm afraid you'll have to be disappointed on this occasion, because you weren't quite told when that would be. Although, in fairness to the Minister, he did give some detail on the Government's approach. And then David talked about the place of family and carers in this, and often they don't even know how to contact the out-of-hours and crisis teams. That's a key failing.

Janet talked about the fact that all sorts of people present with mental health difficulties. We're all vulnerable. Most of us, subjected to certain factors, would probably suffer some form of mental distress or ill health. And that's really important. And then I thought she talked very appositely about the need for more mental health models in medical training, and I think all Members have been impressed with the points you made there. 

Andrew R.T. said it's a bit like groundhog day: 2007, Jonathan Morgan wins the ballot. I've always been slightly suspicious of the phrase 'you win a ballot', but, anyway, his name was drawn, and he chose a mental health Measure. And I had the honour to chair the legislative oversight committee that looked at that. And it was really an important milestone, I think, in our work. And Andrew also talked about the value in political consensus on this.

Can I commend in general the Minister's response? I think he did try to tackle the main questions that were brought up—not to our full satisfaction necessarily in every case, but I don't think anything was avoided. The thematic report recognises that progress is being made, but the Government will be replying to each of the recommendations and then will develop a delivery plan. I think that's important. The work on the data set is continuing and must be robust. Clearly, the deadline has to reflect that, but we do need it as soon as possible.

He also acknowledged the need for out-of-hours and crisis teams to be a top priority and then made, I thought, a very important point. I will end on this, and I thank you for your indulgence, Presiding Officer. As demand is increasing, in large part because we now talk more about mental health and we are seeking to get more people to come forward, we are improving in primary and, in this case, community care teams the sort of help they can get. So, the fact that we are seeing an increase in demand really does, to some great degree, reflect that we are improving, at least in terms of general perception of the importance of coming forward and seeking help. With that, I conclude the debate.

The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] I will defer voting until voting time.

That brings us to voting time. Unless three Members wish for the bell to the rung, I will proceed directly to the first vote. The first vote is on the Standards of Conduct Committee report, and I call for a vote on the motion tabled in the name of Jayne Bryant. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 48, one abstention, one against. Therefore, the motion is agreed.

The next vote is on the debate on a Member’s legislative proposal. This motion was tabled in the name of Bethan Sayed. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 29, 18 abstentions, two against. Therefore, the motion is agreed.

The next item is a vote on the Welsh Conservatives’ debate on community health teams, and I call for a vote on the motion, tabled in the name of Darren Millar. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 35 against. Therefore, the motion is not agreed.

The next vote is a vote on amendment 1, tabled in the name of Rebecca Evans. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 27, seven abstentions, 15 against. Therefore, the amendment is agreed.

Amendment 2—I call for a vote on amendment 2, tabled in the name of Rhun ap Iorwerth. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 22, no abstentions, 28 against. Therefore, amendment 2 is not agreed.

Amendment 3—a vote on amendment 3, tabled in the name of Rhun ap Iorwerth. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 49, no abstentions, one against. Therefore, amendment 3 is agreed.

A vote on the motion as amended.

Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 46, no abstentions, four against. Therefore, the motion as amended is agreed.

I ask Members leaving the Chamber—if you are leaving the Chamber—to do so quietly and quickly.

If Members can do their chit-chatting outside the Chamber, we're about to move on to the short debate.

I call the short debate in the name of Caroline Jones.

Diolch, Llywydd. Next to issues with the NHS, the vast majority of my postbag consists of issues with social housing. Consistent issues with housing associations has led me to question who benefits from social housing. In my experience, it certainly isn't the tenant. When social housing was provided by local councils, they weren't driven by profits and, for the most part, responded to the needs of their tenants.

When the wholesale transfer of council housing took place at the start of this decade and led to the creation of housing associations, it was supposed to herald a new era for social housing. Housing stock would be updated and maintained, and operating profits would be ploughed back into creating new housing stock, putting an end to five to 10-year waits for social housing. Unfortunately, this grand vision hasn't come to pass. Some parts of Wales have seen slight increases in housing stock, while others have seen decreases. We should have been building between 3,000 and 4,000 new social housing units a year. Over the last 10 years, only 6,000 new social housing units have been built. 

The quality of social housing has also not significantly improved. Less than 64 per cent of social housing is fully compliant with the Welsh housing quality standard. Almost 10 per cent is non-compliant: 21,000 families forced to live in housing deemed unfit. With all of this in mind, it is unsurprising that I have been inundated with complaints about the registered social landlords in my region. And the worst culprit I may name is Tai Tarian.

Tai Tarian, formally Neath Port Talbot Homes, was created following the transfer of 9,200 council houses from Neath Port Talbot County Borough Council in 2011. Tai Tarian currently manages 8,978 properties. Last year, they announced the development of 37 new homes, 10 of which were being built upon a sheltered housing site consisting of 20 properties. Fourteen per cent of their properties are not fully compliant with the Welsh quality housing standard. Constituents have contacted me complaining about the length of time it takes to have repairs done. One constituent was told they would have to wait three years for repairs. And constituents have contacted me complaining about rising rents. Constituents have contacted me complaining about draconian increases in maintenance fees. 

In Hogan House, in Aberavon, a couple of the flats are privately owned. Tai Tarian are demanding over £6,000 from each of the residents for updates to Hogan House. How on earth is someone surviving on a meagre state pension supposed to find thousands of pounds they haven't budgeted for? For goodness' sake, this is a small flat, purchased by someone who sacrificed annual holidays and many other luxuries that some of us take for granted in order to own their own home. They are now being told that if they don't like it, they can either leave or sell their flat to Tai Tarian. And the cynic in me wonders if that's not the aim of the exercise: to bully private owners into leaving. 

Constituents have contacted me complaining about the failure to tackle anti-social behaviour, and I've been informed by two residents that they were attacked, separately. Rather than moving the problem tenant, the housing association asked if the victims would like to move.

Constituents have contacted me complaining about the state of their properties following so-called improvements. One constituent got in touch to complain that the removal of balconies from the block of flats left their property in a dangerous state. And residents had complained to Tai Tarian, asking for the installation of safety barriers to prevent someone falling to their death. And twice Tai Tarian has ignored these requests. 

Over and over, tenants have told me that Tai Tarian have been obstructive, objectionable and oftentimes downright abusive. I have been calling on the leadership at Tai Tarian since last year to furnish me with copies of their training records for front-line staff in order to ascertain what training they receive with regard to treating tenants with dignity and respect—something that we uphold in this Chamber. To date, I have been met with radio silence.

In contrast, I had an issue with Coastal Housing that was handled completely differently by that organisation. One of my constituents had complained about the lack of disabled access caused by the lack of maintenance—overgrown brambles and excessive pavement drops were severely limiting wheelchair access. On a walk through, I also witnessed hundreds of discarded petrol, oil and anti-freeze containers. When I submitted the photographic evidence to Coastal Housing, the issues were quickly resolved. However, it shouldn't have taken the intervention of a politician for tenants to get their issues resolved, but at least Coastal Housing acted, unlike Tai Tarian.

All the while this has been going on, Tai Tarian made a profit £5.8 million. Of course, they don't call it profit; it's an 'operating surplus'. But that's after you factor in the directors' pay: the chief executive earns more than the First Minister and the senior directors earn more than twice the salary of a GP.

So, I ask you who benefits from social housing. It's supposed to be the tenants, it's supposed to be those desperately in need of housing and it's supposed to be young people living in poverty. Instead, all my constituents see is social housing being used to enrich a few people at the expense of everyone else.

Registered social landlords operating as not-for-profit organisations have the potential to help reduce poverty by ensuring a ready supply of high-quality housing that is energy efficient and thereby guarantees cheaper rents and lower fuel bills. Many registered social landlords do this and so much more, but not all are so well run and not all housing associations treat their tenants with the dignity and respect that they deserve, and not enough of them put the needs of these tenants first.

This has to change. We are facing a housing crisis of epic proportions over the coming decades, and we can't afford for housing associations to do the bare minimum. The Welsh Government must impose a set of requirements upon registered social landlords to ensure that they improve existing housing stock and build the 3,000 to 4,000 new homes needed each year and every year, whilst not exploiting existing tenants.

It's high time that the tenants were the sole beneficiaries of social housing. I ask Tai Tarian, please, to look at the way that they are treating these tenants. These tenants are on basic minimum wages, salaries and so on, and they deserve dignity and respect, which they're not receiving, and so many have contacted me that it can't be just one or two. Thank you.

Thank you. Can I now call on the Minister for Housing and Local Government to reply to the debate? Julie James.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I very much welcome the opportunity to look at the importance of social housing and its benefits here in the Chamber today. It's not often I disagree with a Member who's bringing forward a short debate, but I found myself disagreeing quite vehemently with much of what Caroline Jones said. I'm sure she has the individual caseload that she mentions, and there are ways of dealing with that, but the general remarks that she made about the conclusions she draws from her caseload for this sector I very much disagree with.

I firmly believe that, in answer to the question posed in the title of the debate, all of society benefits from social housing. We all benefit from a vibrant, successful social housing system where as many families as possible have access to a safe, warm home and communities are integrated. We all benefit from having homes that would otherwise be out of reach for some of the most vulnerable families, older people and disabled people.

Caroline Jones mentioned a couple of statistics at the beginning of her contribution, which I just wanted to pick up on. First of all, the stock transfer arrangements did not lead to the creation of housing associations—many housing associations have been around for an awful lot longer than that. It did, of course, lead to the creation of some housing associations, which are the ones that received the stock transfer. 

In terms of the Welsh housing quality standard, we have 91 per cent compliance so far with that, and we're not yet at the end of the programme. It's important to remember that we would not expect to be 100 per cent compliant before the end of the programme for that. And actually, compliance in the housing association sector is at near blanket. So, I just wanted to put right a couple of the statistics there, and some of the expectations from that.

There are obviously areas where we may be able to get more homes from our investment in housing, which is why we commissioned the affordable housing supplier review last year, and the recommendations for that will be coming forward in April. And there are other reasons associated with why we haven't been able to build council housing or affordable social housing as fast as we would like, which have been rehearsed in this Chamber already, but I will just mention them again, which were the arrangements relating to the way that the housing revenue accounts were controlled. The removal of the cap has meant that we've been able to send out different arrangements to each of the local housing authorities that have got housing revenue accounts, and to have a discussion with those councils that don't have housing revenue accounts about the best way to take social housing forward. So, I think the picture is a great deal more nuanced than Caroline Jones's contribution might have led you to believe.

I just want to talk a little bit more about why we think that social housing should be and is our top priority. It provides not only quality homes but the support needed to ensure people can sustain their tenancies and thrive. It positively impacts on health, mental health and education, which is why Wales never moved away from support for social housing, not since the Assembly came into existence.

We recognise that social housing requires a greater level of Government subsidy, and we're comfortable with this. We support those for whom our investment can have the greatest impact. That investment can also potentially reduce the cost to the taxpayer in other areas. So, we've driven the standards up in social housing. The Welsh quality housing standard ensures, for example, a category D insulation standard, and in the next iteration of the Welsh housing quality standard, we will be looking to raise that to A. So, there was no way to transform the stock overnight from where it was to A, but we will have a second tranche of that in which we will be discussing raising that standard. 

The new build for houses built by local housing associations, which were the only people who were able to build them until the change I just mentioned, Deputy Presiding Officer, have made sure that all the new homes reach their standard by 2020, and all existing stock will reach it by 2036. Sorry, my eyesight's bad. It's 2036. I thought it said 2038. 

So, I just want to belay the suggestion that Caroline Jones appeared to me to be making, that social housing is somehow substandard, and so on, because it most certainly is not. During the relatively short time I've been Minister for Housing and Local Government, I've seen first-hand just how important secure, good-quality housing is to the health and well-being of the communities we serve.

Our integration agenda is supported by £105 million of the integrated care fund, aiming to improve public services by making collaborative working an explicit requirement for local authorities and health boards, while allowing the space for innovation. While the fund is beginning to support accommodation-led solutions to social care alongside housing and health capital programmes, we are supporting it to move towards developing a more scalable strategic programme of capital investment that has housing at its core. I want to see this accommodation-led approach embedded in the models of care we develop for people and vulnerable groups. I did agree with Caroline Jones that vulnerable groups need specialist accommodation, and that is exactly what we're aiming our integrated care fund at. 

You will all be aware that, as a Government, we committed to delivering 20,000 additional affordable homes during this Assembly term. Homes for social rent will make up the largest proportion of that target, although I recognise that there is a need for additional homes right across Wales. We've invested heavily in social housing and in housing more generally in this term, but we don't have limitless resources. We must think creatively about how we can achieve more from our investment and this is something I've challenged my officials to do. The challenge is also central to the independent affordable housing supplier review we commissioned, which will report at the end of April.

One area where I am convinced that we can see an increase in the delivery of social housing is through local authorities building again, and in that regard I do agree with Caroline Jones. I do think there is a need for local housing authorities to start to build social homes again. Now that that borrowing cap that was imposed by the UK Government has been abolished in Wales, authorities can and will start building again. I've had very good conversations across Wales with local authorities eager and willing to do just that. They can have access to very long-term low-cost finance through the Public Works Loan Board, which I'll be encouraging them to leverage to kick-start ambitious council house building projects across Wales.

I also recognise that there are aspects of the way we utilise our social housing stock that are not perfect across Wales. I've been clear that my ambition is for us to build enough high-quality social housing so that everyone who wants to can access it. Until then, we have to do the best we can to ensure we make the best possible use of our social housing to meet the needs of those who need it most. 

Evicting families from social housing, especially in local authorities who are social housing landlords, makes no sense. Once a family has been made homeless, they are likely to be moved into less secure accommodation or even temporary accommodation, which in the worst-case scenario could be a bed-and-breakfast hotel. The authorities have a duty to support families to prevent homelessness or relieve it where it cannot be prevented. True prevention means supporting families to make a success of their tenancies and remain in their communities. This is what we should be trying to achieve, and this is the point I'll be strongly emphasising to local authorities. This is a conversation I will also be having with housing associations.

So, Caroline Jones mentioned a couple of specifics in her case load that I would very much welcome her sending to me, because I would like to look in more detail at the specifics. But in general, looking to evict somebody who's committing anti-social behaviour is not the way forward. The way forward is to address the anti-social behaviour and contain it and allow the family to continue with their tenancy. So, just to be clear, I think we're not quite on the same page on some of those. 

In these uncertain times, with Brexit unresolved, we remain committed to ensuring that social housing continues to be a priority of Wales. I know from a recent debate that many of us across the floor share the same aspirations for social housing and I'm open to working with Members on this agenda. 

So, to conclude, Deputy Presiding Officer, good-quality social housing is the foundation for strong families and communities, the foundation for good health, and the foundation for a good education. This Government will continue to support this vital asset that benefits all of us. Diolch.

Thank you very much. That brings today's proceedings to a close. Thank you.