Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru

Good afternoon and welcome to this afternoon's Plenary session. It's my pleasure to inform Members that Sue Lines is in the Oriel today. She is the president of the Australian Senate.

Welcome to the President of the Australian Senate, who is joining us here in the public gallery today, Sue Lines. Croeso i Gymru, welcome to Wales. I'm sure Members will want to welcome you here. [Applause.] Diolch yn fawr.

The first item on our agenda this afternoon will be questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Housing and Local Government, and the first question is from Sioned Williams.

Diolch, Sioned. I fully recognise the need for affordable housing across Wales, which is why we're investing a record annual budget of £411 million for the social housing grant alone in this financial year—an additional £81 million compared to last year. I am pleased that the social housing grant allocation for the region for 2025-26 is almost £50 million.

Diolch. It's good to hear of that investment, but, in Neath Port Talbot alone, the number of people in temporary accommodation has increased from 313 to 832 people in recent years, which, without intervention, will increase significantly in the coming years and result in cost pressures of up to £4.4 million by 2027-28. One contributing factor is the shortage of affordable housing. Shelter estimate that there are 94,000 households currently waiting for social housing across Wales and that fulfilling this demand would take 35 years. A recent report by Crisis shows that there are fewer affordable homes in Wales than in London, and in the communities I represent, less than 1.5 per cent of properties are affordable to rent for people on housing benefits.

Each of us here, I know, receive regular phone calls or e-mails from constituents on housing-related issues. And I've had numerous constituents who have either found themselves without accommodation or whose current property has, for various reasons, become unsuitable, and all are faced with long waits to secure appropriate housing. So, what is the Government doing to streamline processes surrounding waiting lists, to support local authorities and housing associations to deliver their duties, and to ensure that there are enough affordable homes being made available so that everybody who needs a home can get a home?

Diolch Sioned, and thank you for raising that. You'll know that delivery is our focus and delivering more homes is one of the four priorities for the First Minister, and she has set that for the remainder of this Senedd. As a Government, we have never moved away from our ambition to end homelessness in Wales and our commitment to deliver as many more affordable homes as possible. You will know that we will be introducing legislation around homelessness, which is a really important tool, I think, within our armoury here in Wales. We want to have more affordable homes. That's why we've got our target, but let's be clear about that target: we need to have more affordable homes not just now, but for the future. And I think that one of the really good things is that we do have a very positive pipeline of projects.

The Government is providing a record level of investment in social build housing across Wales during this Senedd term. We've got a planned investment of almost £2 billion. In the first three years of the current five-year Senedd term, official data shows that we've delivered nearly 9,000 more homes for rent in the social sector—some of the highest levels of delivery since records began in 2007-08. But I absolutely recognise the pressure on housing here in Wales, as it is throughout the UK and in other places. In Neath Port Talbot, we know that the Neath working men's club scheme is being developed for social rent to provide 36 new homes, which is a mix of one-bed and two-bed flats, which has had social housing grant funding of £5.2 million. So, the investment that's going in is really positive. We know what we need to do and we need to keep that ambition and delivery going.

Good afternoon, Cabinet Secretary. At my recent advice surgery in Pontarddulais, a number of residents who came mentioned to me the pressure that various plans for hundreds of new homes in Pontarddulais would add on infrastructure in the town and beyond, and in particular on the M4 junctions that lead up to Pontarddulais, in particular 48 at Hendy and 47 at Penllergaer. Now, I know you will tell me, quite rightly, that individual planning decisions will be the responsibility of the local authority but, obviously, the M4 is not. And when the Welsh Government decided to cancel the M4 relief road, various junction projects along the M4, particularly in the Swansea area, were cancelled too. So, can I ask what discussions you're having with the Cabinet Secretary for transport around the development of houses and social homes across Wales, to ensure that the M4 can be kept moving as best it can and that those junctions can be kept moving as well?

Thank you, Tom. Absolutely, we know we need, as I was saying, to build and to acquire more homes, we need to deliver more homes. We need to do that in conjunction with our local communities, and that's through local development plans. We have our processes within that to make sure that the voices of local communities are heard within Wales. Also, that's around the infrastructure that goes with building and delivering more new homes and social homes as well. In terms of the M4, I recognise the point you make. As somebody who lives near one of the M4 junctions myself, I do understand the pressures on the M4. My cabinet colleague Ken Skates, who is the Cabinet member for transport, is very much aware of that, and I'm sure he'd be happy to update you on any of the particular concerns that you have in that area.

Diolch, Mike. There has been a small decrease in the number of empty homes in Wales in 2025-26. We recognise that empty homes are a problem in our communities, and, through our schemes, we will continue to work with our local authority partners to help bring empty homes back into use.

There are too many empty houses and flats. From delivering leaflets and campaigning, I notice the large number of empty properties. These are often in areas that have always been sought after, and are in greater demand now as the waiting list for social housing increases and there is a growing demand for privately rented housing. The Welsh Government has created a loan scheme system to help people to bring houses back into use and has allowed a council tax surcharge on empty properties. While both of these have had a positive effect, they have not solved the problem of empty properties. Will the Government consider bringing in powers to allow councils to compulsorily purchase any property that has been empty for over five years?

Diolch, Mike. We know that empty properties have a real detrimental impact on our communities. They are very much a wasted housing resource. They attract anti-social behaviour, and they can really contribute to the feel of decline in an area. That's why, as you touched on, we have a number of interventions that can help bring properties back into use. Local authorities already have a range of legislative powers at their disposal in relation to empty homes, including compulsory purchase orders, empty dwelling management orders and enforced sales. We are working with local authorities to help facilitate the use of these powers to tackle empty properties, including developing the empty property enforcement fund, which provides loan funding to assist with and de-risk enforcement on empty and dilapidated properties. We're also developing an empty property handbook, which will offer practical guidance on how to identify and secure homes through legal, financial and persuasive means. And we're currently reviewing our enforcement support offer to ensure our interventions are the most effective and accessible to local authorities in order to reduce the number of empty properties. Another of the schemes that we have available in this area is Leasing Scheme Wales, and I'm really pleased to welcome Swansea into the fold for Leasing Scheme Wales. I can confirm that a grant offer letter was sent to the city and county of Swansea Council earlier this week. So, I am pleased that there's another avenue to tackling these empty properties that are a blight on our communities.

Cabinet Secretary, you've just said that there has been a slight decrease in the number of empty homes recently. Well, there hasn't actually been any national improvement in the number of empty houses, with the number of chargeable empty properties only reducing from 22,634 in 2024-25 to 22,558. However, it was almost that same figure in 2013—23,000 empty properties in the private sector. Now, with some local authorities such as Ynys Môn, that local authority experienced an increase of empty homes from 346 last year to 450. Gwynedd is now seeing an increase from 1,462 last year to 1,512 this year. So, it's back on the actual increase. This clearly shows that your Government's existing policies to reduce the number of empty homes in Wales is not working, and this at a time when we've got people staying in hotels and B&Bs. We've got such a housing shortage. All local authorities need to be more focused. Notwithstanding the policies you've mentioned, will you as the Cabinet Secretary write out a letter to local authorities expressing your concerns that very little is actually being done to make those empty properties back into liveable homes for many who need them? Diolch.

Diolch, Janet. In terms of the figures, just on the council tax chargeable on long-term empty properties, the total number of those empty properties in Wales for 2025-26 is estimated to reduce by 76, or 0.3 per cent. That's why I said it's very slightly decreased. Of these, 13,220 properties will pay a premium, compared to 11,456 in 2024-25. So, that's in terms of the figures.

I very much agree with you about the impact that empty properties can have in our communities. I think we all know and see those within our areas, and it's incredibly frustrating that these are a resource that, as I said, could be a home for somebody, when we know there is a need for that. We do have a number of schemes that I've mentioned, whether that's Leasing Scheme Wales, and some local authorities have their own schemes. We've got our empty homes grant scheme, which is providing grants of up to £25,000 to remove significant hazards from long-term empty properties to make them safe to live in and to improve their energy efficiency. So, we are doing a number of things. On the empty homes grants, there have been 1,058 valid applications for the scheme to date, as well as 241 properties completed. So, there are things that we are doing. I think everybody wants to see action in this area. We work with local authorities, and I do regularly meet with leaders and chief executives of local authorities, and housing leads and housing officers, around the work that they're doing. As I said, we have got some more work coming out shortly, such as our empty property handbook, and we are, as I said in my initial answer to Mike Hedges, reviewing our enforcement support offer to ensure that our interventions are the most effective and accessible to local authorities.

Questions now from the party spokespeople. The Conservative spokesperson, Laura Anne Jones.

Diolch, Llywydd. Good afternoon, Cabinet Secretary. In the past year, council tax has skyrocketed for residents across Wales, hitting hard-working families really hard. Yet, we see the chief executive of Cardiff City Council's salary higher than the First Minister's and higher than the Prime Minister's. The chief executive of Torfaen took home £164,000 last year, and the chief executive of RCT took home nearly £200,000. Meanwhile, children living in Rhondda and Torfaen are among the most likely to be living in poverty in Wales. I think most of us agree that this cannot be right. It's hard to justify when these pay packets are such a stark difference to the average take-home pay in these areas. Will the Cabinet Secretary agree with me that we must urgently review these inflated executive salaries and ensure that taxpayers' money is being used to protect vital local services, not line the pockets of the highest paid? Diolch.

Thank you for that question, Laura. Local authority chief executives are paid at the rates that they're set. As I said, the average band D council tax for Wales in 2025-26 is lower here in Wales than it is in England. I think there are some clear things that we're doing as a Government in this Senedd term to make sure that those people who are really feeling the brunt of things are really protected as much as they can be. And local authorities are having to make some really tough decisions after 14 years of Tory austerity.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. I'm sorry, I don't think you answered my question on the council salaries, because that’s what the basis of my question was about. Maybe you could answer that within the next question as well, which, again, just reiterates that council tax has skyrocketed for residents across Wales, and it’s hitting working families hard.

According to a 2024 Welsh Government survey, 61 per cent of respondents stated that their council tax bills were unfair. Yet, in Wales, there is no referendum for council tax increases over 5 per cent, which is a democratic safeguard for residents in England that they’re entitled to. The Welsh Conservatives, unlike Labour, would give Welsh taxpayers that choice.

Cabinet Secretary, do you think it’s acceptable that the Welsh Government continues to deny Welsh people that same right, or is it more convenient for this Welsh Government to not allow for this accountability, allowing councils to abuse council tax by pushing through eye-watering tax hikes year after year? Diolch.

Thank you, Laura. I mentioned the council tax band is lower because you touched on it in your initial question, but I’m very happy to write to you on the other questions you raised around chief executive salaries.

But I’ll also just go into the further points you raised. Any increase in council tax is understandably unwelcome for taxpayers. Council tax is a significant source of funding for local services, which are really delivering for people day in, day out. And it’s for each local authority to justify its decision on council tax to its communities. Local authorities are making really, really tough decisions when they’re setting their budgets and council tax, and, obviously, they have to engage meaningfully with their local communities as they consider their priorities.

Council tax referenda do not apply in Wales. We will not impose those blanket limits to require costly local referendums, as they do in England. Setting arbitrary limits just becomes a target for local authorities to raise council tax to the maximum allowed—which has happened in England—rather than really considering what’s necessary. So, it should be noted that the complexity of costs of holding referendums places an additional burden on local authorities and their resources, and I think I’d be keen to hear if you would agree that that would further exacerbate the financial pressures faced by local authorities.

Cabinet Secretary, can I take it from your answers today then that you don’t agree that Welsh people should have a referendum like their English counterparts, and that you do agree with eye-watering salaries for chief executives across Wales?

I’d like to ask in my final question about Foster Care Fortnight—on a lighter note—now well under way, with the theme this year being the power of relationships. I’m sure you’ll agree with me that those relationships begin with having enough foster carers in place to provide those stable, loving homes. Yet, in Monmouthshire alone, we know that Foster Wales has set a target to recruit 30 additional foster families by 2027, because, currently, there just simply aren’t enough carers to meet the needs of those vulnerable children. There is a deeply concerning shortfall.

I understand this is a cross-cutting portfolio, but how are you, and this Welsh Government, working with local authorities like Monmouthshire to ensure that they are fully equipped and funded to meet this target? And how are you supporting all local authorities to use this national campaign as a springboard to actually boost recruitment numbers now, not in two years’ time? Diolch.

Thank you, Laura. No, I can assure you that we’re not planning any costly local referenda on council tax. And, I think, in terms of chief executives’ pay, that is something that local authorities have to also justify to their electorate as well.

In terms of foster families, I know this is something that you feel passionately about as well, and I’m sure all of us in the Chamber would like to welcome Foster Care Fortnight, because I think it’s so important, isn’t it, for those young people that there are families who will welcome them into their homes and who will care for them as well. And we do need to see more people coming forward to give those young people opportunities, and to care for them as foster carers. I know foster carers who do incredible work, and the love and the care that they give is really important. So, we do need to make sure we’re always campaigning on that.

I know—and I’ve been to areas around Wales when I’m visiting—that there are often local authority campaigns to increase awareness and to entice more people into foster care. I’m really pleased to see that campaign. I know that my Cabinet colleague Dawn Bowden leads on this, and I'm sure she will be doing everything she can as well to raise awareness about this foster care for families around Wales.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson now, Siân Gwenllian. 

Thank you very much, Llywydd. This week, we've heard Keir Starmer blaming migration for a lack of skills and low productivity in the workforce, which is unforgivable in my view. If we are to increase productivity in Wales, the Government needs to invest in skills in our local workforce that correspond to future skills needs. Housing does provide great opportunities for the Welsh economy in terms of construction and retrofitting homes. In 2021, modelling by CITB Cymru—they are the board responsible for training the construction industry—showed that we will need 12,000 additional workers in Wales in order to deliver home retrofitting by 2028. But as your own backbenchers have highlighted, we are nowhere near where we need to be in terms of building the skills required in the local workforce in order to deliver the Government's ambitions for improving homes.

So, rather than casting the blame on the most vulnerable, can you give us an idea of what progress your Government has made in terms of upskilling the local workforce in Wales to take advantage of the economic opportunities that the change to clean energy in homes could bring?

Diolch, Siân. In Wales, we are proud to be a welcoming nation and a nation of sanctuary. We all know that many of the services that we rely on depend on the skills and dedication of people who have made Wales their home.

In terms of general skills as well, I have been really fortunate to have visited some really impressive places, such as the work that Persimmon do in Rhondda Cynon Taf with Bridgend College, just upskilling the workforce. It was great to be given some tips on bricklaying from a young woman who was learning her craft as a bricklayer. I think there is still a long way to go in terms of getting over that gender bias as well. I think there are some other things, such as the availability of female teachers, for example—I know that was something that was raised with me in bricklaying. And I think there are still some attitudes within some areas that girls are more likely to want to do hair and beauty and boys bricklaying. So, I think we have still got some barriers to break down. But I know, working with my colleagues Jack Sargent and also Vikki Howells, as Minister as well, that we need to come together to really share that good practice around Wales and make sure we've got that investment in the right places to get to young people as early as we can.

We have a very long way to go in terms of upskilling the workforce in Wales, and that response doesn't fill me with hope that developments are in the pipeline.

The local government committee has noted a number of areas where the Welsh Government is not investing enough, and one of those is upgrading Welsh homes to a good standard. But I am also concerned about how the Government is targeting funding in this area. The Equality and Social Justice Committee report has found that the Warm Homes programme in 2022—that's when the report was published—. The private rented sector accounts for 20 per cent of homes that are in fuel poverty across Wales. The private rented sector is in a far worse state than any other housing sector, particularly social housing, and yet Welsh Government investment in upgrading homes is almost entirely focused on social housing. There is way over £100 million in this year's budget allocated for retrofitting social housing only. So, where is the investment to improve homes in the private rented sector? Do you agree that it is now time to reconsider this Government's policy in terms of retrofit?

Diolch, Siân. I think this Government is committed to doing what we can in the retrofit space. We know we have a lot to do. We know we're focused on social housing in Wales and we know that there's a lot more to do within that private rented sector as well; we're very much aware of that. We've been working with UK Government as well and trying to learn some lessons there as well, but also, it's them learning from us, because I think that's really important. So, we have had some really positive relationships there.

But, you know, I think we have a job that we can do within the envelope that we have at the moment, and I think that our Warm Homes plan is really pushing forward in that way, but I don't want to underestimate the challenge of that. We're also looking to get some of the work from the local registered social landlords and local authorities to just let us know what their surveys are like. So, we're waiting to hear back what the real scale of the challenge is in that area before we even know what we're dealing with in the private rented sector as well, because we do realise that will be quite significant.

Year after year, the Government here continues to fail to reach its targets in terms of tackling fuel poverty and increasing the supply of social housing. And as far as I can see, there are no plans in place to create jobs in construction and the map for upgrading domestic homes seems to be missing too. Now, this, of course, causes real hardship for people in our communities across Wales, and it's the poorest and most vulnerable who will suffer most as a result of that.

There is one key policy that could make a huge difference, namely scrapping or at least rebalancing the levy on electricity bills. This levy creates a disproportionate burden on the poorest in our society. I do understand that the powers to change this lie with the UK Government, but pressing for this change could generate real change. So, what conversations have you had with your colleagues in the UK Government on changing levies on electricity bills?

Thank you, Siân, for that question. As I say, I have had the opportunity to meet some of my UK Government colleagues, most recently Miatta Fahnbulleh, who is the Minister for Energy Consumers, and I believe that my colleague Jane Hutt has also had discussions with Miatta Fahnbulleh as well. I think that's something that perhaps I can have a discussion with my colleague Jane Hutt on, and perhaps then raise it with the UK Government Minister as well. So, I'm happy to have further discussions on that specific point.

Diolch, Paul. Since January 2020, we have awarded over £20 million of funding through our Transforming Towns programme to support regeneration projects in town centres across Pembrokeshire.

Thank you for that answer, Cabinet Secretary. Sadly, there are still some town centres in Pembrokeshire that are often neglected. And in places like Milford Haven, for example, it's crucial that the Welsh Government invests in the town centre so that it can keep pace with the developments made in the marina there.

There has been some excellent work done by community groups like the Milford Haven Business Circle to revitalise the town centre. For example, they have recreated a founding day event, which is going to take place on Saturday 7 June, to celebrate the town's unique heritage, and, of course, to try and improve footfall in the town. So, Cabinet Secretary, we need to build on that good work. And so, can you tell us what the Welsh Government is doing to work with groups like Milford Haven Business Circle on community-led projects, so that they have a real buy-in to the regeneration of our town centres?

Absolutely, Paul. And I think that's a really important point, isn't it, about how we take communities with us, and that they're engaged very much at an early stage, and then continue through that process of, you know, developing these plans for—. Because we all want to see our town centres regenerated and we all want to see them as thriving places, for now and the future.

Pembrokeshire, you'll be pleased to know, has a healthy pipeline of potential regeneration projects. I'm looking forward to seeing them in progress. I'm visiting Pembrokeshire shortly, so I'm very much looking forward to that. My officials are liaising with Pembrokeshire County Council officers to arrange at the moment that plan of where to go to look at the regeneration projects. I'm sure, if you'd like to input into that—. I'm very happy always to visit.

The placemaking plans are really important, as I said yesterday in the town centre statement. We've got these across Wales and across Pembrokeshire. Transforming Towns funding has supported the development of plans in six settlements across Pembrokeshire, including Milford Haven, but also Haverfordwest, Fishguard and Goodwick, which is within your constituency. We've acquired a large area of land at Slade Lane in Haverfordwest that has the potential to deliver 850 new homes, as well as a primary school and green infrastructure. So, there's a lot going on as well, which will help, perhaps, with the footfall in some of those areas, as long as the infrastructure is, obviously, around that.

I've extended our Transforming Towns placemaking grant for a further two years from April this year, and increased the maximum grant available for each project to £300,000. Pembrokeshire County Council has used that placemaking grant to support a range of projects, including the Forbidden Florist restaurant and coffee bar on Quay Street in Haverfordwest. I hope to visit that as well, and I hope the Member will as well, if he hasn't already.

I've been there a few times. 

A few times, brilliant.

Diolch, Cefin. Officials continually review the new Warm Homes Nest scheme to ensure it meets its primary objectives in tackling fuel poverty and the climate emergency. The scheme is still in its infancy, but these changes are having a positive impact in supporting fuel poverty householders.

Diolch yn fawr iawn. Thank you. There are, however, growing concerns about the way the Nest scheme handles complaints and deals with remediation work, and this is far from a one-off situation. 

Just take this one example. A 72-year-old disabled tenant was left without reliable heating and with a home damaged by a fundamentally flawed installation carried out under the Warm Homes Nest scheme. Within two years, every radiator was leaking due to internal corrosion. Two independent plumbers confirmed the cause: the system hadn't been protected against sludge build-up, which is a basic industry standard.

Despite a formal complaint, Nest denied responsibility because the warranty had expired. The landlords, then faced with an unsafe situation, had no choice but to pay nearly £3,000 for emergency repairs. When they later returned to Nest, they were told no help could be offered because external plumbers had been involved, despite Nest refusing to act initially.

This kind of contradictory response leaves people financially burdened, emotionally exhausted and totally let down. Minister, do you agree that the Nest complaints process is not fit for purpose? What will you do to ensure that vulnerable people are properly protected when Government-backed schemes fail?

Thank you, Cefin. Thank you for raising that. I think if you could write to me on that specific issue, I'd be keen to ask officials to look into that, and I will as well.

The Nest scheme includes a complaints procedure, which is outlined in section 32 of the terms and conditions. In any complaint, that should be provided to constituents if they were successful in their application to the scheme. Complaints should be raised directly with the delivery partner, which allows them the opportunity to resolve the issue. But if dissatisfied, they can submit a complaint to the Welsh Government.

The Nest scheme does have a robust governance arrangement in place, where regular contractor meetings are held with all contractors on a monthly and quarterly basis, where any issues are discussed. But, as I said, please send me more details of that, and officials will look into that.

I don't have any difficulty with the new Nest scheme, which has got lots of checks and balances built into it. The problem I have is with the size of the budget compared with the scale of the challenge. We know that the scale of the challenge is concentrated in the private sector, because the social housing sector has done a good job on this. Today, the Climate Change Committee, the experts that we employ across the UK, have issued their fourth carbon budget for Wales, and one of their top priorities is for the Welsh Government to support particularly low-income households to install low-carbon heating.

We’re just a very long way from where we need to be, and most local authorities don’t seem to be paying attention to the information that’s already available, for example through the Cardiff University School of Architecture and Warm Wales, who pinpoint the most vulnerable households that require most assistance to become energy efficient. It’s astonishing that, at the moment, only five Welsh local authorities are using this toolkit—Cardiff, Ceredigion, Flintshire, Neath Port Talbot and Rhondda Cynon Taf—and some of these are ratcheting up accumulated community funds from windfarms, which could be used for tackling the most vulnerable.

What work is the Welsh Government doing to help the remaining local authorities, and indeed all local authorities, to make this a much higher priority now that the Climate Change Committee has spoken?

Absolutely, Jenny. Some of the points I have referred to in Siân Gwenllian’s question. We know that the scale of the challenge is huge. Low-carbon technologies such as heat pumps and solar panels with battery storage are prioritised when it makes sense to do so. We are targeting the least well-off, with the low-income thresholds being introduced. We are doing lots of work there.

As I said, I’ve met with UK Government colleagues on this, because some of this goes across the UK, doesn’t it, we’re all seeing the same challenge. I’m looking to learn from others as well, as well as share our learning here, and I’m very happy to follow up on where local authorities are doing well. Because, again, if some are doing well—and you gave a selection there of local authorities that are quite diverse, really—I’d be keen to know how that is being shared.

There is a role, obviously, for the WLGA, but I see that as a role for me as well. I meet with local authorities regularly, not just the chief executives and leaders, but also with housing cabinet members and heads of service in local authorities. I’m really trying to get down so that we can have real discussions about where local authorities do things well, where we can learn. And I think that’s something that I can make sure is on the agenda at our next meetings.

Can I thank Cefin Campbell for raising this? I thought it was just in Aberconwy where we were having problematic schemes installed, with the misery and anguish faced by some of my constituents thinking, ‘Oh, we’re doing the right thing, having our homes decarbonised and everything’ and the numbers are increasing. And I have to say that the poor workmanship has been horrendous.

You cannot go on social media now without seeing these adverts leaping out at you: ‘Put £20,000 on the value of your home; have one of these schemes’, but we haven’t got the skills in Wales for these schemes, or the accreditations. People are allowing into their homes contractors who are less than able to carry out some of these schemes. So, I’m really glad, because I genuinely thought it was just in Aberconwy. I’ve raised it here over the past 12 months, so I do think there is something there, Cabinet Secretary, that needs you, perhaps, to look into how effective these schemes really are.

Systems are not compatible with the national power grid supply, they are tripping and leaving households without electricity, hot water and heat. They’ve long warned of serious problems. In fact, I’ve called on the ECO4 scheme to be suspended because the numbers that are coming in to me now far outweigh—. I even put a survey out myself and it came back overwhelmingly that these schemes need more than just Government funding; they need to be managed properly and they need monitoring. And I’m asking you, Cabinet Secretary, if you would do that. Diolch.

Thank you for raising that. If there are specific complaints, there is a complaints procedure, as I outlined. If there were particular ones that you’re concerned about, please raise those with me.

In terms of our approach with the Warm Homes programme, the programme does offer job creation in the supply chain for retrofitting, employing local traders and boosting demand for these skills in local authorities. Community-based schemes such as communal heating systems and whole-building insulation systems that can positively impact multiple homes will be explored as part of the programme. British Gas, which is a delivery agent for the Nest scheme, has been working closely with contractors to ensure they upskill their workforce, and contractors provide training and support to all working on the scheme to ensure they're competent in delivering the requirements of PAS 2035.

Beyond the Nest scheme, we also need installers to decarbonise, as we've said, the rest of our homes, and, obviously, the imbalance in supply and demand is impacting on our ability to deliver those quality installations at pace within Wales. But our need for a workforce skilled in energy efficiency and low-carbon heating will only increase over the long term, so we are, as I said, working across Government with the sector to assess provision over time and plan training provision accordingly.

You mentioned the ECO4 concerns. That is a UK Government scheme. That's one of the discussions that I was able to have with my colleague Miatta Fahnbulleh, who's leading on that in Westminster, and I know that there'll be more. They're doing some work at the moment, and, hopefully, following my written statement that I was able to put out recently—I think it was about last month when that first came out—I’ll be able to keep Members updated. But, as I say, officials meet regularly at a UK level, and, also, this is something that I raise with my Cabinet colleagues in Westminster as well.

Diolch, Mabon. Office for National Statistics figures show that Wales has had the lowest average private rent of all UK nations since January 2021. In March 2025, the average private rent in Wales was £792 per month, compared with the average of £1,332.

Thank you for that response. Those statistics that the Cabinet Secretary has quoted are correct, but she failed to record the fact that rent rates have increased more, by percentage, in Wales than any other part of the UK, increasing by 8 per cent. As you've said, it's almost £800 a month now, and, given the average income level in Wales, which is lower than the rest of the UK, it's very difficult for people in Wales to pay such rents.

I've had constituents approaching me telling me that they've seen their rents increasing, and I've been asking the landlords why this is the case. The answer is because they can increase the rent, not because they've improved the quality of the home, not because they've improved the quality of life of their tenants, but because they can raise rents without there being any barriers placed in front of them. 

In addition to that, we are seeing the quality of some of these houses for rent being very low quality, which means that people are living in damp accommodation very often too. So, can you commit to looking into capping rents? We know that a cap exists in the public sector, with public sector housing, so can we see something similar in the private sector to prevent this kind of increase in the future?

Diolch, Mabon, and thank you for that supplementary question. It is important not just to look at the percentage change figure on an all-Wales basis, because that doesn't tell us how much more somebody will be paying rent in real terms each month in a specific town, city or village. The ONS data does show that while some local authority areas may have seen that larger percentage change in the rent compared to 12 months ago, for most local authorities these increases have been much lower and more in line with the level of inflation.

Under the Renting Homes (Wales) Act 2016, we've put in place measures that mean a landlord can only look at increasing rent once in any 12-month period, and also doubled the rent increase notice period from one month to two months. As you know, the White Paper on adequate housing, fair rents and affordability does outline that better data is needed to really—that's on the market rents—understand affordability in the sector, and, therefore, explore how rent information could be collected by Rent Smart Wales, the licence authority.

You’ll know that we set out in the White Paper that we would not be looking to take forward rent controls at this time, because we had evidence from the Green Paper. But, as I say, that data is something that we really do need to see improved. I think that's an area where we can make some progress, because just imposing temporary rent control measures without that robust evidence could have real unintended consequences.

Of course, Cabinet Secretary, there are proposed minimum energy efficiency standards coming into place for private landlords renting out their properties for tenants here in Wales. There will be a cost for those landlords to bring those houses up to standard, and, of course, you'd expect at least a level of that cost to be passed on to tenants in the future as well. So, I do wonder what assessment you've made of the costs that landlords are facing to bring the rental properties up to those energy efficiency standards and the impact on rental prices here in Wales?

And I wonder also what assessment Welsh Government has made as to the future size of the Welsh private rented sector and the number of homes available to tenants as a result of these proposed minimum energy efficiency standards coming into place. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Diolch, Sam. The MEES system is something at a UK Government level and it's something that I was able to talk with my UK Government counterpart about recently. We've had discussions. As I say, we're keen to learn some of the things from them, but also to make sure that we're sharing information with them, because this is something that we are really going to have to tackle together. We know what our real ambition here is in Wales, but we know, across the UK, that this is something that we need to really focus on. So, I'll continue to keep Members updated with the MEES scheme, but, absolutely, I've very much had those discussions, not just in terms of me as a representative here, but also officials have those discussions as well, which are quite regular.

Diolch, Heledd. Every new home that is built in Wales with Welsh Government funding is built to the lifetime homes standard, ensuring homes can be adapted as needs change. The Welsh Government also provides local authorities with adaptations funding through the independent living programme, which has received an additional £5.5 million this year.

Thank you for the response, Cabinet Secretary. I asked this question because there is a brave 13-year-old boy called Kyle Sieniawski who lives in Pontypridd in my region. In March last year, Kyle started to experience the early symptoms of what was diagnosed in January of this year as motor neurone disease, which came as a terrible shock to the family. He is the youngest sufferer of MND in the UK, if not the world. Sadly, since October, his health has deteriorated rapidly, and he now requires help with breathing, nutrition and has very limited mobility. His parents and brother are at his side all the time, living with him at Noah's Ark Children's Hospital for Wales. They desperately want to get Kyle home to be cared for.

Their privately owned house is not suitable for the sort of adaptations that would be needed, and it's been suggested to them that they should sell and purchase or rent an adapted property. But can you imagine trying to find an adapted house to move whilst your child is suffering in a hospital bed with a terminal condition? Cabinet Secretary, can you advise what support should be available for a family in such a situation in Wales, and will you agree to meet with me and the family to see how our housing services can support them as a matter of urgency?

Diolch, Heledd. I'm so sorry to hear about Kyle's diagnosis; I'm sure everybody in this Chamber is today. It must be such devastating news for him and his family to deal with, let alone, as you said, the added worry, concern and stress put on them as a family with their housing needs.

This Welsh Government funds several housing adaptation programmes that are delivered through a range of providers, however it's fundamental that houses are suitable for the installation of any adaptations. I understand, in Kyle's case, that the local authority has determined that the home is not suitable and cannot, therefore, be adapted. I have allocated a further £5.5 million in capital investment and £1.2 million in revenue this year to alleviate some of the demand on adaptations more generally, but Kyle's story demonstrates the importance of developing homes that are ready to be adapted as needs change. Again, thank you so much for raising Kyle's story. I'd be very happy to meet with you and with Kyle's family to discuss what support could be provided.

Diolch, Delyth. In making decisions on the local government settlement, I considered the breadth of services councils deliver, including leisure and library services. Councils in South Wales East received a combined funding uplift of 4.8 per cent for 2025-26. 

Thank you for that answer. I am deeply worried about the effect that library closures will have across Caerphilly. Ten libraries across Caerphilly face closure. The vote has decided it at cabinet today. This decision will close down doors on to other worlds, places of comfort for people who are cold and lonely, and places of wonder for children. Some children had actually contacted the council directly to tell them how much they will miss these libraries. They've drawn posters. They've written letters and sent messages. One of my constituents in Llanbradach put a photograph of a letter his young son had written on my Facebook page. The letter reads:

'Dear Council, please keep the library xx from Henry'.

It poses the question of what the point is of councils conducting consultations if they're going to so utterly ignore the responses.

Now, funding for libraries should be backed up by central government, so I would ask today, on behalf of those children like Henry and their parents, whether urgent assistance can be provided to those communities to help find other ways of keeping these libraries open, now that the council has decided so recklessly to close them.

Diolch, Delyth. I absolutely recognise the importance of libraries and leisure facilities in contributing positively to our communities. The decisions on budgets are for individual services, including libraries and other valued services. They are for local elected members to make. The pattern of local library provision is also a matter for the local authority to determine following that consultation.

In terms of the funding that we've put in, as the local government settlement, as I say, local authorities have received an increase of 4.5 per cent or £262 million on a like-for-like basis compared to the current year. As I said, these are decisions that are made by each individual local authority.

Finally, Altaf Hussain, question 8.

Diolch, Altaf. Myself and officials are fully engaged with the UK Government on this issue. I recently met the Minister for Energy Consumers, Miatta Fahnbulleh, to discuss the UK Government's Warm Homes plan. We will assess the implications of these plans for Wales once they are published.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. The Warm Homes scheme was designed to help make fuel-poor homes warmer and more energy efficient. Nest was introduced before the UK Government forced even more families into fuel poverty. Before the Chancellor axed the winter fuel payments, Wales still saw hundreds of people die each winter. Nearly a third of excess winter deaths are attributed to living in a cold home. Cabinet Secretary, it is obvious that ending the winter fuel payment and rising energy prices will force more people into fuel poverty. Is your Warm Homes scheme able to cope with the extra demand, and will it help prevent people dying of the cold next winter?

Diolch, Altaf. My officials have considered the forthcoming UK Government Warm Homes plan. It broadly aligns with our own policy objectives within the Warm Homes Nest scheme. Where appropriate, we can amend Nest to incorporate any positive outcomes that arise, which will benefit Welsh householders. My officials are meeting officials from UK Government, Scottish Government and Northern Ireland to discuss fuel poverty-related issues, and to share knowledge and best practice on how to best help vulnerable households in fuel poverty. 

The primary objectives of the Warm Homes Nest scheme are tackling fuel poverty and the climate emergency, and officials are continually reviewing progress to ensure that the scheme completely meets these primary objectives. We have had ongoing reviews and that's enabled me to announce several changes that I think have had a real, positive impact on supporting fuel poverty households.

I think maximising incomes and putting money back into people's pockets in Wales, including pensioners, are vital priorities for us as we help Welsh householders facing those high energy prices and cost-of-living pressures. We do continue to invest in our advice services and we're encouraging people, including pensioners, to contact the Advicelink Cymru 'Claim what's yours' helpline to find out about the financial support that they may be entitled to.    

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. 

The next questions will be those to the Cabinet Secretary for Education. The first question will be answered by the Minister for Further and Higher Education, and will be asked by Adam Price.

The Welsh Government has no plans for further education colleges to be under public sector control. Medr is responsible for funding and regulating tertiary education in Wales and will shortly consult on its proposed regulatory regime, which addresses the whole tertiary education sector.

Many people think that the decision under the Conservative Government in the early 1990s to take further education colleges out of local authority control completely was a mistake, because it's led to a fragmented post-16 education sector. You have competition between FE colleges and sixth-form colleges, and there's a lack of accountability. When I've asked you, Minister, about a proposal, for example, to close the Ammanford campus by Coleg Sir Gâr in my own constituency, you basically said that that's a decision for the college. There's nothing locally or nationally that we can do about it, and surely that can't be right when we're talking about a public service that is 100 per cent publicly funded. So, will you look at either bringing local further education colleges back under local authority control, or some other form of direct democratic accountability?

Thank you, Adam, for those supplementary questions there. As you said, colleges in Wales are responsible and accountable for their strategic and operational decisions. That includes, of course, course delivery and estate management. The Welsh Government feels, and I believe the sector feels as well, that their current non-public status allows for a really diverse and agile sector, and it gives institutions the opportunity to shape the provision around the learners and their communities.

What I would say as well is that changing the accounting and non-public sector status of colleges in Wales would significantly increase administration and bureaucracy, both for colleges themselves and also for Welsh Government. I feel that that would be really disruptive when we want our colleges to be focused on their core business of teaching and learning. Also, I would add that I don't think it's clear that the added expense of public sector status would give rise to any significant benefits.

The Member may also be interested in the fact that, if we turn to the statutory framework itself under the Tertiary Education and Research (Wales) Act 2022, the Act will establish a new statutory framework that integrates the regulation of tertiary education provision. As a key part of that, Medr will be introducing a new regulatory system. The aim is for that system, including the condition in respect of governance and management, to go live from 2026-27. So, Medr will be launching a consultation on 14 May, and intend to undertake engagement with the sector alongside the formal consultation, so that may be something that the Member might wish to engage in.

By their nature, independent schools are autonomous. They're not controlled or funded by Government but typically governed by trustees or governors, who are responsible for the school’s direction, allowing them to make decisions regarding all aspects of the school’s management and operation.

Thanks, Cabinet Secretary. Labour's resentment of private and independent schools is something that has been discussed on multiple occasions here in the past within the Chamber itself. Your party's damaging policies aimed at the sector are continuing to wreak havoc. Last week, we heard the shock news that St Clare's School in Porthcawl has entered negotiations to shut down. The blame has been put down to economic volatility and factors beyond their control. One parent said the announcement had left many in shock and indeed in tears. And then the following day came the news that Oakleigh House School in Swansea, another private school, is also going to be closing its doors.

Let's be frank: there's no denying that Labour's tax raid on private schools and mammoth national insurance hikes have played a damning role in this sorry saga. And I hate to be the one to say this, Cabinet Secretary, but this is the point where I have to say, 'I told you so.' My Welsh Conservative colleagues, alongside our Westminster Conservative team, warned time and time again that the consequences of these policies would indeed be dire.

So, Cabinet Secretary, what support is the Welsh Government going to be providing to these schools and the local authorities, as parents start to find alternative school places? And given the First Minister only said last week that she would call out the Labour Westminster Government if it takes action that would harm the Welsh community, will you please implore her to challenge the Prime Minister over this controversial policy before any more schools in Wales close down for good? Thank you.

Well, can I thank Natasha for her supplementary question? As she is aware, the application of VAT to independent school fees from 1 January is not a devolved matter. VAT policy is reserved to Westminster, so it applies to the whole of the UK. You'll be aware, because you've raised it previously in the Chamber, that, this year, we ended business rates relief for some fee-charging schools to use the funding to support local public services. This brought independent schools with charitable status in line with other independent schools in Wales, and if I can say to the Member that St Clare's School was not identified as one of the 17 schools receiving business rates relief before this was removed.

Can I also say to the Member that officials are in conversation with the local authorities about how to continue the education of children and young people who will be impacted by the planned closures? And Bridgend council has confirmed that they are working with St Clare's School to understand where the children are resident—obviously not all of them are resident in Bridgend—and to provide support to ensure continuing education for the children affected. The local authority is available to help any parents, carers or pupils who request their assistance in finding alternative education provision.

Swansea Council have also confirmed that they're aware of the planned closure of Oakleigh House School and expect there to be an impact on school admissions, including additional learning needs. However, they feel that that situation is manageable at the moment. And I would encourage any families affected by this, if they've not done so already, to have a conversation with their local education authority.

I now call on the party spokespeople to question the Cabinet Secretary. The Welsh Conservative spokesperson, Joel James.

Thank you, Llywydd. Cabinet Secretary, there has been growing concern for some time within the teaching profession that a supply teacher shortage means schools will have no choice but to rely on teaching assistants to cover classes. Whilst teaching assistants are perfectly able to cover a few lessons when teachers are unexpectedly absent, or away from the classroom for planning or marking sessions, they're frequently being deployed against national guidance to actively teach and perform roles that they're neither trained nor paid to do.

Evidence shows that around 39 per cent of primary school teaching assistants cover classes for at least five hours per week—that's equivalent to one day—while 15 per cent cover classes for at least 11 hours per week, the equivalent of at least two days. Worryingly, just under half say that they do so without lesson plans. A large number of these teaching assistants highlight that they have not been properly trained to teach the Welsh curriculum, and, as you are aware, there's also the increasing complexity of the health needs of learners. I'm aware that some schools have asked their teaching assistants to take this on and even start administering medication in the absence of school nurses. With all this in mind, how is the Welsh Government looking to ensure that teaching assistants are not being pressurised to perform teaching roles that they're not contracted to do? Thank you.

Can I thank Joel James for his question, and say to the Chamber that improving the terms and conditions, professional learning and the recognition of support staff is a priority for me? It's one of the reasons why I was so keen to have a strategic education workforce plan in Wales, because discussions with local government had not made sufficient progress in this space, so we're taking it forward via the strategic education workforce plan.

One of those issues you've highlighted today is the fact that support staff are sometimes asked to cover for classroom teachers. I met with the support staff at the Unison support staff conference last autumn, and this was a clear theme of their concerns. Clearly, it is important that support staff are remunerated properly for their role and that they also have appropriate training for their role. We have made it clear to the sector in Wales that there is an entitlement to professional learning for support staff, but I know that the application of that entitlement is not as consistent as we'd like, so there is work for the strategic workforce plan to do there.

You also referred to the fact that some support staff are being asked to administer medication and deal with children with highly complex needs. That is also a concern, and I have been discussing with our special schools and others the school nursing framework. I have a meeting with the Cabinet Secretary for health to discuss, among other things, the school nursing framework next week and what we're expecting of support staff.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. As you will be aware, a teaching assistant at Ysgol y Graig community primary school in Cefn-coed-y-cymmer, Merthyr, was recently suspended after sharing a video of herself mocking a vulnerable child who she was working with on a 1:1 basis, and then posting the video on social media, publicly available for all to see. We are told that the teaching assistant in question had been given exceptional references from the teaching agency that had put her forward for the role. I believe that it is important that lessons are learned, and I understand that people do sometimes slip through the net, despite every effort. However, if the teaching assistant had not posted the video online, this child could still be subject to mockery, humiliation and abuse. Do you agree with me, Cabinet Secretary, that there is scope to strengthen the referencing procedures for teaching assistant roles, especially when dealing with vulnerable children? And, if so, what actions are the Welsh Government going to take? Thank you.

Thank you for that question. Can I take this opportunity to say how unacceptable the actions of that teaching assistant were? As you said, it came to light. We've got well-established procedures in Wales, through the Education Workforce Council, to regulate the conduct of our teaching workforce and to follow up on any allegations of malpractice, which is what happened in this space. I think you referred as well to supply teachers. Most of our supply teachers in Wales are resourced through agencies that are on our supply work framework, which does include assurances about quality. But I'm very happy to go away and have a look if there's anything more that we can do in this space.

Perfect. Finally, Cabinet Secretary, as you mentioned, the inquiry into the actions of the teaching assistant has led to her being removed from the EWC register and to not be allowed to re-register or work in a school for a period of just 12 months. In order to be re-registered, she would need to undertake face-to-face training courses in relation to safeguarding and appropriate use of social media, meaning that, if she passes these courses, she's eligible to find work in the same role that she was suspended from. I appreciate, Cabinet Secretary, that you are unable to comment specifically on this case, but this is clearly a failure to safeguard a child from potential harm and one that I believe should prevent someone from being eligible to ever re-register in the education workforce again. What are you doing to review the criteria for re-registration after such incidents to ensure it is the best course of action for safeguarding children? Thank you.

Thank you, Joel. As you've highlighted, I wouldn't want to comment on this individual case. I do meet with the EWC regularly. I will have a discussion with EWC and my officials as to whether there's anything further that we can do. We're also, as a Government, looking very carefully at how we promote safeguarding in schools. And this is a safeguarding issue, isn't it? So, we're looking at that in the round as well. But I wouldn't want to comment on the specific case. I do, of course, expect the highest standards of behaviour from all of our educators in Wales, and the vast majority of those do a really brilliant job and support children wonderfully well.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Cefin Campbell.

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Llywydd. Cabinet Secretary, a recent blog from Impact, an organisation based in Caerphilly specialising in school improvement services, outlined the complete chaos the Welsh education system finds itself in currently. After over 25 years of Labour in Wales levelling down our education system, it's more important than ever for measures to be put in place by the Welsh Government that will properly improve schools across Wales.

Following the middle-tier review, it was clear that the five education consortia across Wales were inconsistent at best and actively damaging at worst when it came to levelling up on school improvement. Since then, Welsh Government have announced a new central national professional learning body, then there's Adnodd, you've also announced a new ministerial expert advisory group, a new expert literacy panel, as well as a new internal Welsh Government school improvement team. That's five new bodies or organisations in place of the five regional consortia. When I speak to teachers, it's clear that the lack of detail regarding these new bodies is causing confusion in classrooms, with one saying that it's complete shambles. So, what action are you taking, Cabinet Secretary, to ensure that teachers and schools are able to access school improvement services during this time of transition?

Thank you, Cefin, for that question. I'm sure you will expect me to disagree with your assessment that the education system is in complete chaos. You're well aware that we had the middle-tier review, and that was undertaken and there was extensive consultation with school leaders. It was very much their view that they wanted a system in place where they had a direct relationship with the local authority and they were able to work together to improve schools. That work is being taken forward at pace.

I think it would be fair to say that in some local authority areas there is more progress than others, and that's always the case with inconsistency, and that's something we're constantly mindful of. I was in Ynys Môn a few weeks ago, where I had the opportunity to discuss this issue with their secondary heads and the local authority, and I was incredibly impressed by the work that they are doing on a self-improving school system there. So, there is much to be encouraged about there.

You seem to take exception to having what you describe as different bodies, even though they all are doing actually different things. The internal Welsh Government school improvement team is designed to support the work that is being taken forward across Wales at a local level on school improvement, and I think it is essential that we have that national focus. The PL body has been set up to tackle what has been a long-standing problem in Wales of too many different pieces of confusing information about professional learning. Schools talked to us, as part of the middle-tier review, about the white noise of professional learning, so the new PL body will bring together professional learning in a coherent way that is focused on national priorities. Adnodd is focused on curriculum resources, and I’m sure you will agree with me that it is vital that we have a body that is there to develop bilingual curriculum resources. You’ve referred to the expert group, and we’ve discussed that before. I personally think it’s important to listen to experts when you’re dealing with challenging issues. That’s the way I work. I like to talk to people and listen to people. And I’m also in the final stages of appointing a headteacher advisory group, which there’s been huge interest in, and I’m looking forward to working with people who are at the coalface, dealing with these challenges all the time.

You are right to mention the issue of data. You’ll be aware that data has been an issue that I have been concerned about since coming into post. It is absolutely essential that we have high-quality data to drive improvement in these new school improvement arrangements. But I should also take this opportunity to say that I don’t see this as a return to high-stakes accountability. This is enabling everyone in the system to have the information that we need, to make sure that the system improves and we raise standards.

Thank you. The point that I was trying to make, of course, is that it’s not clear what the impact of all of these bodies that have been established is on improving standards in schools. And that’s why people are uncertain, in this period of transition, as to what these bodies are doing in terms of improving standards. But, at the core of this issue is the confusion about what exactly is happening to the regional education consortia. In your budget scrutiny session before the education committee earlier this year, you said this:

'The consortia aren’t going to exist anymore.'

However, the Record has been amended, following that, to say: 

'The consortia may not exist anymore.'

And there is a difference between the two, of course. So, does this mean that some consortia, from 1 September onwards, will continue to exist and will continue to play a role in your plans to improve education standards in schools? In addition, given that staff have been leaving in their hundreds since the middle tier review was published, are you concerned that, in the consortia, or the new bodies, and the new central body that you’ve established, there won't be enough school improvement staff of sufficient quality in order to raise standards across the 1,400 schools across Wales?

Thank you, Cefin. And I do want to recognise that we’re in a period of transition—and periods of transition are challenging for people—and recognise that this has been a stressful time for some of the staff involved as well. The consortia won’t exist in their current form. The school improvement relationship will be with the statutory school improvement body, which is the local authority. Now, each part of Wales is working out how those arrangements will be structured in the best interests of delivering school improvement in their area. So, as I mentioned Ynys Môn, Ynys Môn are developing a partnership with Gwynedd council. In Gwent, my own area, they are working more together on the old Educational Achievement Service footprint. So, the statutory duty lies with local authorities. They are developing their plans. They are reporting to not just our programme board on this, but we also have a national coherence group, which is chaired by Kirsty Williams, and that body is there to give me advice on the whole coherence of the whole system.

Diolch yn fawr iawn. A crucial aspect of school improvement programmes is, of course, funding. As you've said yourself, a lot of professional learning will be done on a national basis, so we've had to strengthen the funding for that at a more national level—those were your words. That inevitably means a reduction in the LEA grant, meaning less funding for local authorities, at a time when we're asking them to do more. So, notwithstanding the future funding arrangements, however, I'd like to focus on the potential costs to local authorities. One consortia, Partneriaeth, notes in their recent risk register that not receiving enough money from the local authorities they serve to enable them to provide effective school improvement support is labelled 'a medium probability with a very high impact'. Meanwhile GwE, the consortium for north Wales, has been dealing with the cost of making staff who are not moving directly to local authorities redundant. This has left them in a deficit of almost £1 million. So, quite simply, will the Welsh Government be covering this shortfall, or will local authorities be expected, yet again, to foot the bill?

Thank you, Cefin. As you will be aware from budget scrutiny and recent questions, across this financial year and the last financial year, this Welsh Labour Government has provided a total of £262.5 million extra of funding for the education system. That included a 4.5 per cent increase in funding for the revenue support grant—some £243 million or thereabouts—and that money was allocated. And it was very clear in the letter that that was there to recognise the pressures they had identified in education, including ALN, as well as social care.

You are right to highlight that, in the budget that I was scrutinised on after Christmas, there were some transfers between BELs to reflect the fact that we were establishing a new professional learning body. But, just to be really clear, that is not less money in the system, that is just to reflect the fact that different people are delivering different things. We have done the very best we can, thanks to the extra money from the UK Labour Government, to put as much money into the education system as we can. Nobody is saying there aren't any pressures, and I will be the loudest voice arguing for more money for education always.

Outdoor learning is a key feature of successful pedagogy within the Curriculum for Wales. The curriculum makes clear the value of authentic outdoor learning experiences, including supporting healthy and active lifestyles, developing problem-solving skills, whilst understanding and respecting nature and our environment.

Cabinet Secretary, as you know, we on this side of the Chamber are keen to promote the benefits of outdoor learning, as was demonstrated by my colleague Sam Rowlands's Residential Outdoor Education (Wales) Bill, which unfortunately the Welsh Government didn't support. Now, I believe that the Welsh Government has committed to supporting some of my colleague's non-legislative proposals to support residential outdoor learning, including engaging with the Outdoor Partnership on the development of their adventure learning framework. I understand that progress on this front has been slow and it is important that the Welsh Government is engaging with the Outdoor Partnership on this important work. So, Cabinet Secretary, can you tell us what the Welsh Government has done so far to support the development of the adventure learning framework, and can you also tell us a bit more about how outdoor learning is being supported in our Welsh schools?

Thank you very much, Paul, for your supplementary question. The Curriculum for Wales, as you know, makes clear that outdoor learning should be embedded throughout a learner's journey in a wide range of authentic settings. This can be within an education setting, the wider community, a forest, beach or mountain, and we continue to encourage schools to build outdoor learning into their curriculum. It's included in the humanities, health and well-being and the science and technology areas of learning and experience in the Curriculum for Wales, which all schools must consider. We have published an outdoor learning module for those in foundation learning and, when we have had a chance to review those modules, we are going to consider how they can be expanded upon across the learning continuum from three to 16. We've also worked to ensure that there are a range of high-quality resources available on Hwb to support outdoor learning practice, many of which were highlighted during Wales Outdoor Learning Week recently, with resources from a range of organisations on outdoor learning and climate change. We also took the opportunity to promote a wide variety of resources to schools and settings, and I'm really pleased that we've directly supported the development of the Tirlun outdoor learning online portal for schools, led by the Pembrokeshire Coast National Park education team. The resource ensures schools and designated landscapes of Wales work together to provide outdoor experiences to consolidate learning for older children.

As you highlighted, we weren't able to support Sam Rowlands's Bill because we had concerns about financial pressures and also conflicts within the curriculum. I did meet with Sam and we are looking at what we can do to take forward some of his recommendations. Ideally, I'd prefer to update Sam—we've had to rearrange one meeting and we're trying to get another one in—but, just to say, officials have met with the outdoor learning partnership to better understand their framework, and we're reviewing that to consider next steps. We've also highlighted the importance of outdoor learning in the school essentials grant's frequently asked questions and supported documentation, which was one of Sam's asks. But I know that I'm trying to get a meeting in with Sam where I can discuss this with him in more detail.

Thank you, Paul, for raising this important subject because it's so beneficial to children's physical and mental health. I'm privileged to have wonderful suburban schools in Llanedeyrn and Pentwyn, which have all been given generous parcels of land as part of their playgrounds, and there are obviously fantastic learning opportunities to be had. I know outstanding teachers who would love to incorporate growing food into the new curriculum, but they feel they know nothing about gardening. So, I'm very interested in the information you've provided us with about the hubs, which I haven't looked at, but how do you plan to evaluate how we incorporate food literacy and everything that goes with it—where food comes from, not out of a cardboard box—to really strengthen children's understanding of what a healthy, balanced diet does to enable them to stay well and learn well?

Thank you, Jenny. I know this is something you are particularly passionate about. I'm really pleased that the Curriculum for Wales gives schools the flexibility to use that pedagogy on topics like horticulture and food production, and many education settings already use their outdoor spaces to provide learners with enrichment activities, including growing fruit and vegetables. Estyn have also published positive case studies in this area. I was able to visit Ysgol Gyfun Llangefni at Easter, where they've got a massive, beautiful garden where they are growing things, and that's having a big impact on their mental health as well. And we are keen, as part of our community-focused schools policy, to continue to encourage children and their communities to engage with activities that support their well-being, such as this.

Local authorities, schools and colleges are working hard to ensure learners receive the support they need and to move learners to the additional learning needs system by August 2025. I will update the Senedd on the next steps to improve consistency in the approach to the ALN reforms in July.

Last year, the ALN Reform Wales campaign told me that the new system is just not working, that they have received countless stories of children missed or left behind by the new system, that children and parents were being blamed and punished, and that trauma was coming from school because teachers and schools were not being trained and supported. A year ago, National Education Union Cymru stated that although they broadly welcomed the Additional Learning Needs and Education Tribunal (Wales) Act 2018 and their members want to be focusing on children and their learning, the system is forcing teachers away from the classroom. This year, the National Association of Schoolmasters Union of Women Teachers Cymru told me that, despite supporting the principles behind the legislation, effective interventions are only possible if education professionals are not spending precious time completing paperwork, that December's Estyn report had highlighted major concerns with the Act's implementation, and that people needed to know how they could contribute to the Welsh Government's legislative review, which I believe is now closed. Given that major reforms to special educational needs provision are expected in England, with the UK Government looking at what happened to the ALN reforms in Wales, what will you be telling them about this?

Thank you for your question, Mark. As I hope Members know, I do care passionately about delivering for all our learners, including those with ALN. The aims of our reforms are ambitious and involve systemic changes to culture and practice in Wales. We know that our reforms are benefiting many learners and families, and actually, Mark, Estyn's recent review reported improvements in ALN provision and some really good practice across Wales, and we've shared some of this in a recent effective practice event.

Local authorities, schools and colleges are working really hard to meet the needs of learners, and this is against a backdrop of very significant rising numbers of children presenting with ALN and with rising levels of complexity. I've been very open with the Senedd about the challenges that we've seen in implementation, and I don't want to see a single child left behind by this system. That's why I announced the legislative review of ALN, because we heard from stakeholders, but also from the president of the tribunal, that aspects of the legislation were complex and unclear. And as you've highlighted, the consultation on our legislative review has just closed.

But alongside that, we've been working all this time closely with local authorities to drive consistency in the system, as we are doing that. We've been sharing good practice through inclusive practice events, we've had feedback from staff, which has been really valuable, and we've also had a parental survey open to get parents' feedback on the system. I am due to make a statement on ALN reform in July. That will be an opportunity to update Members on the outcome of the legislative review and the other work that we're doing, which includes things like improving our data collection on ALN, because you can't drive improvements in a system without having the data.

Local authorities are responsible for sourcing school staff, including decisions on when and how to use agency staff. Welsh Government has noted that some local authorities have a significant need for temporary staff, and we are currently working with them to understand any recruitment and retention challenges.

I thank you, Cabinet Secretary, for that response. Last year, the shortage of staff in our schools cost the taxpayer almost £79 million in agency staff. Monmouthshire County Council alone spent almost £4 million. This additional financial pressure on local authorities is a direct result of the Welsh Government's failures to address staff shortages across Wales, much like the situation in our healthcare service. Cabinet Secretary, I'm sure you would agree with me that this money would be better invested in retaining and recruiting quality teachers for long-term sustainability, rather than this overreliance on agency staff. I know you're working with local authorities, but what actions are the Welsh Government taking to resolve the situation?

Thank you, Peter. Well, you won't be surprised to hear that I don't agree with you that these costs are a result of our failure to tackle staff shortages. I think you'll find that the recruitment and retention of teachers are challenges across the UK and, indeed, across the world now at the moment. So, we're all facing the same challenges. That's one of the reasons why I announced we would be developing a strategic education workforce plan.

I think it's important to note that there will always be some need for the use of temporary staff in schools, whether that's supply teachers, teaching assistants or other support staff, and we mustn't forget that they are dedicated members of the workforce who play a really important role in our children's education. As I said earlier, many schools choose to use agencies, and the Welsh Government has established a supply agency framework that provides fairer pay and conditions, professional development opportunities, and assurances that agencies have met agreed requirements. I'm really pleased that 98 per cent of the money spent on the provision of supply staff is via that framework.

I think it's also important to note that when we look at that headline figure of agency spend, we do need to be clear about where the money goes, and the majority of that money is pay passed on to supply teachers and support staff who are providing the cover, and while there's some variance across the agencies, the agency fee element is approximately 16 per cent of the total. But, obviously, I saw the same figures that you saw. What money we have is precious. We have to make sure it is spent to maximum effect. That's why we're looking at recruitment and retention. That also means looking at things like well-being and making sure that our staff want to stay in our teaching profession.

We are also talking to local authorities. So, for example, one of the local authorities had a spend of around £20 million, and we're talking to the local authorities to understand that. You will probably also be aware that I issued a written statement on our work around a national supply pool for supply staff not so long ago. Taking forward the work around decent terms and conditions for supply staff will also be a key part of the work in our strategic workforce plan.

Standing advisory councils on religious education continue to provide guidance and advice on teaching, learning, resources and pedagogy in religious education, religion, values and ethics, and collective worship. We're also working with the Wales Association of Standing Advisory Councils on Religious Education to address teacher recruitment challenges in this area.

Thank you for your response, Cabinet Secretary. I'm also grateful for your earlier response to my colleague Paul Davies on a separate matter. But on this particular issue, as chair of the cross-party group on faith, I've received concerns regarding inconsistencies in the way that SACRE groups receive professional support across Wales, with particular concerns around the role of those regional school improvement services that you had a discussion with Cefin Campbell about earlier, given the changes that are taken place at that middle tier.

I know that you think it's important that SACRE groups are able to appropriately carry out their duties in looking at the teachings of religious education and collective worship in schools, and I know that you, with me, agree that when that is done well, it benefits children across Wales. So, I wonder, in the months ahead, what your plan is to make sure that those SACREs in local authority areas across Wales receive and have access to the guidance and support that they need to do their work and their duties effectively.

Thank you, Sam. Standing advisory councils have a really important role to play in developing the agreed syllabus for schools on RVE. As you know, schools must consider this syllabus alongside national guidance when developing their curricula. Our RVE guidance has been developed by practitioners through a process of co-construction that has been supported by experts, including the Wales association of standing advisory councils.

You have heard me say in response to Cefin Campbell earlier about the new professional learning body. I'm aware that there are concerns around the consistency of engagement with SACREs, and I wanted to let you know that we have created a new area on Hwb that gives access to a range of professional learning resources, experiences and opportunities. This includes new resources that provide key information about meeting the legislative requirements for religion, values and ethics within the Curriculum for Wales, and how to embed more RVE concepts and content into their curriculum offer. I'm really pleased that, by the end of May, this site is going to include a resource card linking to the Wales association of standing advisory councils' website.

The Curriculum for Wales is clear that developing good physical health and well-being has lifelong benefits. The framework includes clear progression in physical activity and sport, and supports learners in developing the confidence, knowledge and understanding that can help them lead healthy and active lifestyles throughout their lives.

I thank the Cabinet Secretary for that response. May I start by highlighting the success of Gwylliaid Meirionnydd Girls Rugby Club? And to declare an interest: my daughters are members of that rugby club. The under-12s have reached the seven-a-side finals of the Urdd competition, won the north Wales cup, and have reached the Wales national final at Rodney Parade. None of that would have happened without the support of the Welsh Rugby Union Hub officer, Euros Jones, who did excellent work going into schools and helping pupils in the schools to understand rugby, not just in terms of playing the game, but the other skills involved in rugby too.

Now, unfortunately, the WRU decided to withdraw funding and to cut the jobs of the 90 Hub officers that were working across Wales and going in to schools, helping with physical education in those schools, and that is going to have an impact on the physical education of children in those schools. Were you as a Government aware of the WRU’s intention to make those cuts in terms of the Hub officers? And do you believe that the decision of the WRU to cut these jobs is a wise one?

Thank you, Mabon, and can I add my congratulations to your daughter and her rugby team? That's brilliant news, and I think it shows that there's a different kind of sport for everyone, isn't there, and everybody should have the opportunity to explore different sporting opportunities.

I wasn't aware of that announcement by the WRU. Jack Sargeant leads on sport, but I will definitely speak to Jack and follow that up, because, obviously, that is an important issue. We need to grow our grass-roots sport, and that starts with school. So, I wasn't aware of it, but I will follow that up, and I will write to you about that.

The Welsh Government is considering how the Supreme Court ruling affects policy. We are currently exploring how to support schools to share inclusive practice and ensure all children and young people feel valued, safe and able to learn.

Cabinet Secretary, the Supreme Court ruling did not change the provisions under the Equality Act 2010 available to women or transitioning individuals. It reiterated the understanding of sex as biological when the law was introduced in 2010. The case arose from the challenge of alternative interpretations of the law introduced and promoted by activists and lobby groups to include gender, clouding the meaning of sex within the Act. The result has been a development and endorsement of guidance, educational materials and policy that do not reflect the current understanding of biological sex. Will the Cabinet Secretary ensure that educational materials developed by a third party for use in schools must apply a correct understanding of biological sex, and withdraw, immediately, those that do not comply with the ruling? Diolch.

Thank you, Laura Anne. So, can I say that the Welsh Government respects the decision of the Supreme Court and, for all devolved matters, we now need to consider how the Supreme Court ruling affects policy? That includes the planned guidance for schools on how to support trans learners. We will take time to consider the judgment, the interim guidance from the Equality and Human Rights Commission, and the updated code of practice carefully, and then we'll take the steps required to meet our obligations under the Equality Act 2010, as clarified by the ruling.

As I've said to you before, I want our schools to be welcoming and inclusive places for all our learners. I think we should all remind ourselves of what Lord Hodge said when he gave his ruling, that the ruling should not be read as a triumph of one or more groups at the expense of another, and I think it's vital that we take forward our discourse on this in a kind and compassionate way, especially when we are dealing with children and young people.

We are taking time to develop our trans guidance. We want to make sure that we get that right, that guidance for schools, to support some of our most vulnerable learners. In terms of the other materials that you've referred to, if I can inform the Member that the RSE code and statutory guidance recognises sex and gender as being separate. The guidance makes clear that sex is defined by reference to genitalia and reproductive organs. So, that is already clear in the statutory RSE code.

And finally, question 9, Buffy Williams.

Improving attendance continues to be a top priority. We have seen an increase in levels of attendance. To support this, I have invested £8.8 million across 2023-24 and 2025-26, which includes support for family engagement officers, enabling them to address issues around engagement and attendance. I meant 2024-25, actually—sorry. Apologies.

Thank you. Estyn's recent report shows that more pupils in Wales are struggling with behaviour and finding it hard to cope in school, especially in secondary schools. Many are dealing with anxiety, poor mental health and low motivation, which is leading to more time off school. Some pupils are now missing around a day every week. The recent Netflix show Adolescence uncovers just a small part of the world our children and young people have to navigate every day. Teaching staff have also said they are seeing more disruptive and sometimes aggressive behaviour in the classroom, but especially during break times. These problems are making it harder for pupils to learn and for teachers to do their jobs. I know the Cabinet Secretary has made behaviour a top priority, so what action is she taking following Estyn's report, and how will the Government's plans help schools tackle these behaviour issues and get more pupils back in school, learning and feeling safe?

Thank you, Buffy. As I said in my original answer, improving attendance is a top priority for us. The messages in the Estyn report were really concerning, but they weren't a surprise to us. That's why we are focusing and investing such a substantial amount of money in trying to make sure that we tackle the complex issues that are preventing some of our children and young people from coming to school.

You referred to behaviour. Obviously, we discuss that regularly in this Chamber. We are taking a wide range of actions to tackle problems with behaviour in schools, and that impacts on children and young people just as much as it impacts on school practitioners. Last week, I held a round-table discussion with the police, with teaching unions, with school practitioners, with local authorities on violence in schools, and that was a very positive experience. It also gave a very clear message that, for most of our children, they are having a positive experience in schools. Next week, we've got our behaviour summit, which will take that information and the other work that we're doing to come up with a clear set of actions on this space.

Finally, you referred to Adolescence, and Mabon has raised that before in the Chamber. I think that was something that shocked a lot of us as adults. Just to assure you that I am acutely aware of the complexities that young people are having to navigate. I met recently with our keeping safe online group of young learners, who told me about some of those issues. We had a very sobering discussion. And as part of our Curriculum for Wales grants programme, I am taking the need for a consistent approach to relationship and sexuality education forward as a priority. It is essential that all young people learn in schools about safe, respectful relationships. That, in turn, will benefit their behaviour and their mental health.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary.

Item 3 is the topical questions. We have one topical question today, and that will be asked by Mabon ap Gwynfor.

We're analysing the immigration White Paper and its impact on all sectors, including social care. Social care has already experienced significant declines in overseas workers over the last 12 months, and we're working on a range of measures to improve pay and progression opportunities to attract more people into the sector.

Thank you for that response. 

Putting aside the morally dubious rhetoric used by the Prime Minister, with its echoes of Enoch Powell and its cowardly pandering to the hard right, the UK Government's White Paper on immigration has potentially far-reaching practical implications for Wales. This is particularly apparent in relation to the social care workforce, of which approximately 15 to 20 per cent come from overseas. I'd like to take this opportunity to pay tribute to their vital contribution to the health and well-being of our society. They should be championed, not demonised as part of the problem.

Of course, we all want to encourage greater domestic training and recruitment of social care workers, but the reality is that current levels are simply insufficient to meet demand. And the situation is only getting worse. The Cabinet Secretary will be aware of data released by Medr at the end of last year, which showed a 27 per cent decline in health and social care apprenticeships and a 34 per cent decline in foundation apprenticeships. What was glaringly absent from the Prime Minister's announcement, therefore, was any indication of the additional resources that will be made available to initiate this substantial increase in the domestic workforce.

Did this Government have any prior engagement with the UK Government on the proposal to end visas for overseas social care recruitment? If so, what is the Welsh Government's official position on this matter? Do you agree with me that the implication of this White Paper, that social care work is unskilled, is not only highly insulting to a profession that contributes billions of pounds to the Welsh economy every year, it also undermines the urgent need to enhance the prestige and esteem of a sector that already feels thoroughly undervalued? And if the proposals in the White Paper are ultimately enacted, how many additional domestic workers will Wales need to recruit each year to make up the shortfall, and how much in additional spending will be required?

Can I thank Mabon ap Gwynfor for those supplementary comments and questions? I'll start by saying that I absolutely agree with him in terms of the value that we place on overseas care workers in particular. It's difficult to get a very clear picture on the impact in terms of migrant workers on the social care workforce, because we don't have access to the immigration data, because it's not devolved. So, we're making best guesstimates about a lot of that, and that's one of the conversations that we're having with the UK Government so that we can share that immigration data and get a better picture of where we are. 

We didn't have prior notice of the publication of the White Paper, but there had been engagement. My colleague Jane Hutt, the Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice had had engagement with the UK Government Ministers in advance of the White Paper being published and set out very clearly what were our concerns around some of that. What I would have to say is that, at this stage, we have very little detail. We absolutely will have to fully analyse and consider all of the implications of the contents of the White Paper, including social care.

As I said, that wasn't shared with us in advance, so we haven't had the time and the detail to do that as yet. But what we do know, and you know, and I think that that's the root of the question that you're asking, is that we already have recruitment and retention challenges in social care, and international recruitment has been a feature of how we can fill those vacancies in social care. I can give many examples of social care settings that I've visited since I've been Minister that show very clearly the contribution that overseas workers are making to the service. 

One of the things we do need to do is to have the conversation between the Welsh Government and the UK Government once we have got the analysis of the White Paper and its details, and the potential impact, particularly the impact on the additional resources that might be required to upskill in certain areas, which seems to be one of the key objectives of the UK Government in bringing forward this White Paper—what will be a Wales consequential for any investment and development that we need to have in that area.

You will already know, Mabon, that we have done a tremendous amount of work in this area through Social Care Wales, through the social care Wales forum, through the partnership forum, through our pay and progression framework, the fact that we've implemented the real living wage for social care workers, the fact that we have schemes in place in a number of local authorities, which is about social care apprenticeships and growing your own, where people can progress from being social care workers through to other professions in social care, including social workers and social work managers.

Where I would also agree with you is that we see social care workers as being a highly skilled workforce, which is why we have put them on a professional footing and we have them registered here in Wales, and we make sure that they work to a particular level and qualification, because we value that. 

So, my summary of the situation is that we don't know enough at this stage, but I can assure you that we will be having those conversations with the UK Government to fully assess what it means for social care in Wales, and we'll be making it very, very clear how we value that overseas workforce in supplementing the workforce that is homegrown.

Minister, while the UK Government's immigration White Paper raises valid concerns about workforce planning, there is a more pressing issue here in Wales, and it is our increasing and unstable dependency on overseas labour to keep the social care sector running across Wales. In 2023 alone, over 146,000 health and care work visas were issued across the UK, and yet the real problems in our social care system still persist across the country. Vacancies are still rising and many visa holders who come here leave the sector very quickly or some of them never enter at all, and we're also seeing very disturbing levels of abuse in our visa system with fake providers trying to apply for visas, modern slavery and people granted care visas who never actually work in care.

So, what I'd like to ask, Minister, is what is the Welsh Government doing to make sure that these same failures aren't happening here in Wales, and the Welsh Government is being very strict and stringent over these visas to make sure those people are coming into the system. But perhaps the bigger question is what is being done to support Welsh people, especially young Welsh people, into that meaningful, lasting career in social care.

Yesterday, the First Minister asked me to decide which side I'm on. Well, I have: I'm on the side of Welsh working people, and I think that means backing them with fair wages, which we want to see in social care, quality training, something we need to see, and real career progression, so social care becomes a job that people aspire to and not that people fall into it out of necessity. Because right now, as I said, the system relies too heavily on immigration as a short-term fix, and that approach keeps wages low, it restricts local opportunities and masks the structural problems that we need to confront. So, the solution isn't to sideline Welsh workers and bring more foreign workers in, it's to empower them to build a strong and skilled respected care workforce rooted right here in Wales.

I'll finish with this, Deputy Presiding Officer: when is the Welsh Government going to stop outsourcing the solution in social care and start investing in the next generation of Welsh carers by giving them those career routes, by giving them better pay and making it a career that people want to go into, so they don't just fall into it out of necessity? Diolch, Deputy Presiding Officer.

Can I thank James Evans for those points? Firstly, I would have to say that the visa and immigration system is not a devolved area of responsibility. The process for handling all of that lies with the UK Government. We can be recipients of it, but we don't actually control the immigration system, although we have an interest, of course, in what happens.

I do take exception to a lot of the comments that you've made there today, James, because there is absolutely no way that this Government is sidelining Welsh workers, particularly in social care. You've either not listened or bothered to find out about what we are doing in social care in Wales. I started to talk about that in my answer to Mabon ap Gwynfor. We've already developed a social care workforce plan; we've got a strategy for delivering that. The strategy is a three-year strategy, but it is building on what had been in place prior to that. It focuses on the social care workforce. The plan updates on progress that we've made so far and the areas that we need to go further on. But significant funding already goes through Social Care Wales to enable them to lead and support the improvement of social care through recruitment and retention of a quality and professional workforce. And we absolutely value those people who come into the social care workforce.

We've asked Social Care Wales to prioritise workforce planning and ensure that all local authorities are supported to develop those strong plans. And Social Care Wales also administers the social care workforce development programme, and that provides grants to help fund a range of programmes, including, as I said to Mabon, grow-your-own apprenticeships for both social care workers and social workers through the social care work programmes and social care training and development. We've put over £13 million alone just into that one programme for developing training around that for local authorities. And we also make available, every single year, £45 million in funding through the workforce grant, which enables local authorities to support increases in pay. We've been delivering the real living wage in social care for over three years now, and we've been fully funding that as well.

So, what I'm saying is that that work—all of the work that you have been talking about—is going on, and has been going on for a considerable number of years, to increase the number of home-grown workers that we can attract into the social care workforce. And we are having a measure of success, but we still value the international workforce as well. And I don't think it is a question of one or the other. If we did not need to fill those posts with international workers, then we would be recruiting more people who are a local and indigenous workforce, and we've not been able to do that. Now, there could be all sorts of reasons for that. Some people—[Inaudible.]—have a social care workforce, and whilst we need a social care workforce, we would also welcome international workers to supplement the workforce that we have here from Wales.

I just wanted to ask the Minister—I heard in your response to Mabon's question about you not having access to any data on the levels of migrant workers within the social care system. I do find that somewhat surprising, given that it's a heavily regulated sector through both local authorities and the Care Inspectorate Wales. So, is it potentially a lack of desire from the Welsh Government to seek that data, which would be very helpful to, obviously, the Welsh Government and us as MSs to understand the population of the migrant workforce within the social care system? And are there any levers within the Welsh Government, through devolved powers, to have a look into that through guidance to local authorities and indeed the Care and Social Services Inspectorate Wales as well? Because I think we could be using all the levers possible where we don't have those figures, and we can't access those through UK Government methods with the Home Office et cetera. What can we do within our devolved legislature to indeed get access to those figures?

Well, as I said, it is not a devolved area of competence. This is a Home Office—. Immigration is the responsibility of the Home Office and they hold the data. And it's always been challenging because there is the conflict, isn't there, the contradiction—we have people working in devolved areas of responsibility, but we don't have the immigration data that is held by the Home Office, and that has been a problem over a number of years. So, that isn't something that's just arisen as a result of having a UK Labour Government; we've had this problem with former Conservative Governments over many, many years, where we've been unable to extrapolate that information from Home Office figures.

What we do know is that, in the last 12 months, there's been a significant decline in the application of overseas workers, because of the changes to the visa process that was introduced by the last Government, where, if you recall, people coming over from overseas, working in the UK, were not allowed to then bring their families with them. And that meant we saw a sharp decline in the number of overseas workers who were applying to come and work in the UK. But what I can assure you is that, given the provisions that have been set out and that we've seen thus far in the White Paper, we will be working very closely with the UK Government to determine what data they can share with us, and consider how we can support our social care workers with that—[Inaudible.]

Minister, we've just lost your sound. Can we make sure the sound is working, please, so that she can conclude her answer? Do you want to try again, Minister? Do you want to try again, Minister? Obviously, we've lost contact and connection. Okay, Gareth? I don't think we can get the connection back. Okay. Diolch, Gweinidog. Oh, she's back.

Did you lose me then?

We lost your sound for the last sentence. No. Okay.

I thank the Minister.

Sorry, Llywydd. Did you catch everything I was—. I realise—. I think I froze at some point. I could hear and see all of you, but I think—

We lost the sound for the last sentence.

Okay. 

I think Gareth is happy with the answer he's received.

He's got what he wanted. Okay, that's fine.

I thank the Minister.

Item 4 today is the 90-second statements. The first statement is from Sioned Williams.

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. Wales has a long and proud history of speaking out for peace, and for over a century, the Urdd's message of peace and goodwill has declared that to the world. This year, members of the Urdd have chosen to focus on poverty, amid the current child poverty crisis that can be seen in Wales and across the world. This year's message was created following a workshop with students from Coleg y Cymoedd, who were encouraged to share their feelings and experiences about child poverty in Wales, with the support of Katie Hall from the band Chroma, Save the Children Wales and graphic designer Steffan Dafydd. A film of the message will be released on the morning of 15 May. With one in three children and young people in Wales living in poverty, the peace message for 2025 clearly declares the need for change, and calls on those in power in Wales and across the world to consider future generations.

I am very much looking forward to welcoming this year’s Urdd Eisteddfod, the steel and sea Eisteddfod, to Margam park in my region at the end of this month, and I am also very pleased that free entry will be available for lower income families. The Urdd will also host a foodbank on the Eisteddfod maes. Although these actions are to be welcomed, of course, in terms of offering support and sustenance to all children, the fact that the Urdd needs to take steps like this, in Wales in the twenty-first century, is proof that more effective action is needed by politicians to eradicate child poverty in Wales, in accordance with this year's goodwill message.

I welcome the opportunity to make this 90-second statement today, in support of Mental Health Awareness Week. Mental Health Awareness Week is a chance to come together to focus on good mental health. This year, the theme is community, and we all have a role to play. Being part of a safe, positive community is vital for our mental health and well-being. We thrive when we have strong connections with other people and supportive communities that remind us that we are not alone. I advocate for this through my own experiences, and I'm honoured to be an ambassador of the mental health charity Bipolar UK.

Speak to a general practitioner, a professional, or someone that you can trust, and explain what you are going through. The process of being helped and supported can't begin until you make a start on that conversation. Taking care of my physical health has also been a key to help manage my symptoms of bipolar disorder. Through education, colleges right across Wales are committed to prioritising mental health support and awareness. College active well-being strategies emphasise the importance of physical activity to support good learner mental health. Earlier this year, I visited Coleg Cambria to learn about their active well-being programme, which promotes fitness, wellness and inclusion for both learners and staff. It's an excellent initiative that offers a range of activities that all learners and staff can participate in. They've started a 'new you, new start' pilot scheme, which has helped many disengaged students adopt healthier lifestyles, with their programme yielding excellent results. Programmes like this empower young people to live healthier lives and have a positive impact on their physical and mental health.

The health impact of active well-being programmes in FE set the foundation for healthier lives and communities, reduce the growing strain on the NHS, and help to build a solid foundation for a strong workforce. The importance of support for these initiatives cannot be understated. I hope that we can all continue the conversation around mental health, showing everyone that mental health matters, and to let people know that it's okay to ask for help. Thank you.

Yesterday we heard the heartbreaking news of the death of Claire O'Shea, who died of gynaecological cancer at 42 years of age. Our thoughts are all with her loved ones and every woman touched by her tireless campaigning in their grief.

I came across Claire through the work of the health committee on gynaecological cancers, and her ability, her enthusiasm and her principles were entirely clear. Her input enriched the work of the committee immeasurably as we drew up our report 'Unheard'.

Claire was a campaigner, and an exceptionally effective campaigner. She wanted justice and equality for everyone, and brought her incredible campaigning and influencing abilities to her fight against gynaecological cancer, turning the battle into one for every woman in Wales, and jointly establishing Claire's Campaign to push for change in gynaecological cancer services here in Wales.

Claire's strength, warmth and determination inspired hundreds of women to share their experiences and helped drive real change in how gynaecological cancers are understood, talked about and addressed across Wales. Her untimely death is a powerful reminder of why the voices of patients and Claire's Campaign matter so much. We in this Chamber remain fiercely committed to continuing this work to ensure her legacy lives on. She had faith in this Senedd's ability to enact change. We now must repay that faith. Thank you, Claire, for everything.

Next Tuesday St Winefride's shrine and well in Holywell will be open throughout the day, with two short services to pray for those who have been victims of sexual abuse. It's part of a wider day of prayer for abuse survivors that is marked every year in the Catholic Church ever since His Holiness the late Pope Francis established it in 2016.

In England and Wales this day of prayer is observed on the Tuesday of the fifth week of Easter, and the day has got special significance here in Wales because, in 2023, the Bishop of Wrexham, the Right Reverend Peter Brignall, inaugurated St Winefride's shrine as a special site for prayer and healing for victims of sexual abuse.

The inauguration was inspired by the story of St Winefride herself, who as a young woman in the seventh century was a victim of sexual harassment and abuse at the hands of a local prince. Today her shrine in Holywell remains an important place of pilgrimage for many who seek the healing, hope, peace and forgiveness that comes only from Jesus Christ.

Sadly, the outrage of sexual abuse within communities and in institutions is still a problem across Wales, and unfortunately has gone unchecked by some for too long. So, I hope that next Tuesday many colleagues will join me, along with Christians around the world, in praying for all those who have been victims of abuse, and rededicate ourselves to do all we can to protect the vulnerable to make sure that they are not abused in the future. Diolch yn fawr.

Thank you, everyone.

Item 5 today is a Member debate under Standing Order 11.21, safeguarding the health of firefighters, and I call on Luke Fletcher to move the motion.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. In February 2023, I had the privilege of stepping into the boots, quite literally, of the South Wales Fire and Rescue Service team. I was lucky enough to have the opportunity to get a taste of the extensive training that they undertake at the Cardiff Gate training centre and Bridgend fire station, where I joined them in search and rescue exercises. I crawled through smoke-filled rooms, navigated tight pitch-black crawl spaces—and I'm not ashamed to admit it was a bit of a squeeze for me—and that small experience of training was also very tough. The experience left me with a renewed and profound appreciation for the skill, commitment and courage our service people show every day. But it also underscored something else. The dangers our firefighters face do not end once the flames are out. Fire creates a cocktail of toxic chemicals that are known to increase the risk of cancers and other life-threatening illnesses. Thanks to the pioneering work of the Fire Brigades Union and Professor Anna Stec at the University of Central Lancashire, we have the statistics to back this up, and they are harrowing. You will have heard me repeat these figures over the course of the last two years. The age-specific cancer rate for 35 to 39-year-olds in the fire service is up to 323 per cent higher compared to the general population. Firefighters serving 15 years or more were almost twice as likely to develop cancer than those who served less time. Firefighters are twice as likely to be diagnosed with cancer if they remain in their personal protective equipment for more than four hours after attending an incident. And firefighters continue to suffer chronic illnesses as a result of occupational exposure to toxic chemicals. Now, let all that just sink in for a moment.

Since the research was carried out, the World Health Organization’s International Agency for Research on Cancer has formally recognised cancer among firefighters as a group 1 occupational hazard—the most serious classification. In March last year, I welcomed Professor Stec and colleagues from the FBU to the Senedd. Alongside them was Lisa Jenkins, who shared the personal loss of her partner, a firefighter who tragically passed away following a battle with cancer. Hearing both perspectives—the academic and the personal—has, for me, reinforced in the clearest possible terms just how urgently the system needs to change to safeguard the health of those who work to safeguard ours.

Across the world, countries like the US, Canada and Australia have recognised the link between exposure to toxic effluents and the increased incidence of cancer among firefighters. Legislation in these countries ensures that firefighters not only receive workplace compensation when illness strikes, but also have access to routine medical monitoring, designed to catch illnesses early. Yet here in Wales, as across the UK, little such support exists. The FBU’s DECON campaign has worked tirelessly to raise awareness and support firefighters to limit their exposure to harmful contaminants, but protecting their health should not fall solely on individual stations or overstretched services. It requires national leadership, it requires national investment, and it requires a national structured programme of preventative health monitoring.

Following discussions with Professor Stec and the FBU, I’ve consistently been making these calls in the Senedd. I’ve asked several First Ministers whether the Welsh Government would commit to introducing specific health monitoring for firefighters—a practical step that would save lives—but the responses were initially disheartening. The Government would only act on advice from the UK National Screening Committee, and, since there is none, no action would be taken. Now, to be fair, we have heard recently from the First Minister that the chief medical officer has been asked to look into this as a matter of urgency. That is, of course, a welcome step. But every delay now carries consequences, and we just need to get on with it. Further delays simply translate into more deaths due to cancer.

The evidence is there. The stories are there. And the risk is very real. A national programme for preventative health monitoring is an essential, long-overdue step to ensure that the well-being of those who put themselves in harm’s way to protect the rest of us get the support they deserve. And quite simply, it is the right thing to do, to do right by our fire service people and the families who have lost loved ones because of this occupational risk.

Now, I hope that Members vote in favour of the motion today, and do everything possible to ensure that annual health monitoring is put in place for firefighters in Wales. Their families and the service people deserve that at the very least. I look forward to Members’ contributions. Diolch.

I would like to thank Luke for bringing forward this very important debate. As I have said many times in this Chamber, our firefighters regularly put their health on the line to deal with threats to ours, and we regularly let them down. Whether this is allowing bad management to fester, allowing misogyny and racism to run rife, or allowing persistent exposure to carcinogens, the political leadership is letting down our front-line fire and rescue personnel. As Luke and the motion before us today both point out, the research shows that firefighters are getting cancer at a higher rate and at younger ages than the general population, a situation that has forced other developed nations to class firefighting as a preventable cause of cancer. Think about that for a second: the people we expect to rush into a burning building to save our loved ones are more at risk from exposure to toxic substances than they are from the fire itself. 

I was deeply concerned when a team of investigative journalists uncovered the truth about a large number of 'safe' firefighting chemicals, such as wetting agents and foams. These chemicals were far from safe. In fact, they contained what we now call forever chemicals. Perfluoroalkyl and polyfluoroalkyl substances, or PFASs, are bioaccumulative and have been deemed as persistent organic pollutants. Exposure to these forever chemicals is believed to cause organ damage and increase the likelihood of developing many types of cancers. Large multinational chemical companies knowingly and misleadingly sold firefighting agents containing these forever chemicals as safe and biodegradable. Our fire and rescue service personnel used these chemicals for decades, under the false assumption that they were as harmless as the water they were added to. Not only are our firefighters being exposed to toxins released by burning buildings, but also from the very stuff they use to put out the flames.

I urge the Welsh Government to commit today to ensure that a widespread review of the safety of firefighting chemicals is undertaken, as well as to work with researchers at the University of Central Lancashire and elsewhere to fully understand the health implications for former and serving firefighters. We, at the very least, owe this service a commitment to do everything to minimise and mitigate the risk of the job. That includes ensuring they are protected from toxins as well as monitored for exposure. This is not an issue that should be left to individual fire and rescue authorities; it needs action from the top. I urge Members to support Luke's motion. Diolch yn fawr.

Unfortunately, we have seen in recent years Governments of different colours not acting promptly on important information. Why they didn't act is not obvious, but, as a result, lives were ruined, illnesses caused, lives cut short, families broken. I don't think it's hyperbole or any exaggeration to say that this important debate by Luke Fletcher falls within that tragic list. The World Health Organization confirmed in 2022 that firefighters were more at risk of cancer than the general population. Luke has mentioned the report commissioned by the Fire Brigades Union and led by Professor Anna Stec published in July 2023—independent evidence that firefighters face danger from breathing in and ingesting contaminants long after the fire has been put out, and how these toxic fires can be absorbed by the skin.

The danger to a firefighter is obvious, it's clear to us all, but I am sure nobody would imagine a firefighter, just because they are doing their job, that they are helping others, is more at risk of having cancer. Effectively, what we are saying is that just because they're going to work, just because they're saving the lives of others and helping others, their lives are being put at risk by the threat of getting cancer. The truly shocking health statistics in relation to skin and testicular cancer in the firefighter community cannot be ignored. Like Luke, I've met with individuals who've given powerful testimony to this.

Where current fire and rescue health and safety practices are failing, the report builds on existing good practice, international good practice, and the report sets out a path for a safer future for our firefighters. The report sets out clearly a number of urgent—urgent—recommendations with regard to decontamination procedures, regular training in relation to decontamination practices and health risks, changes to operational and working practices within the fire stations, and health screening for all firefighters.

Now, this report, as I've already mentioned, has been in existence since 2023, and it's not as if this is the first time this has come in front of the Senedd. Our colleague Luke Fletcher has been relentless in his efforts to bring this issue before the Siambr, yet we heard yet again last week from the First Minister that a request that was made by Luke in February for annual health screening for firefighters, which was urgent back then in February, still hasn't happened due to a change in the chief medical officer. Now, this should not be reliant on change of personnel.

The issues raised in this report cannot be kicked down the road for the next Government to resolve. The risk, the danger and the responsibility sit firmly at the Government's door, and action must be taken. Minister, I urge you to find the money to implement a programme of remedial work in fire stations so that they are decontamination compliant, that training is provided to ensure that firefighters are in possession of the most up-to-date information, and that they do receive annual health screening to ensure that the firefighters of Wales, who risk their lives on a daily basis, receive international best practice for firefighter health. Diolch yn fawr.

Thank you very much to Luke for bringing this debate forward today. As has already been noted, firefighters are people who put their own lives at risk to save the lives of others. Whilst they accept this risk and train and prepare for that risk, what is entirely unacceptable is that there is a risk that exists that is beyond their control, a risk that training cannot reduce, namely the risk of these forever chemicals that we've heard about, which increases their risk of cancer and other conditions.

The thorough research carried out shows that these forever chemicals exist in the PPE and that they remain in the body for many years, causing changes, cellular mutations, that are dangerous. Four of the eight most common types of cancer among firefighters have been linked with these forever chemicals. Over the past decade, these chemicals have been removed from foams because of the high levels of these chemicals, so there is recognition of the danger of these chemicals, but there are no regulations and no framework in place as to the level of these chemicals in the equipment used by firefighters.

There are a number of countries that have already implemented legislation and frameworks to reinforce regulations for firefighters, and we, therefore, need to see the state here and our nation here in Wales following the same example. For many years, the Fire Brigades Union has called for stronger regulation, and it's about time that we listened. Co-operation between Governments and health bodies is crucial in order to deliver the positive change that is required in order to ensure the safeguards that our firefighters deserve, so I very much hope that we will see unanimous support for Luke's motion today. 

I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Housing and Local Government, Jayne Bryant.

Diolch, Deputy Llywydd. First of all, I would like to thank Luke Fletcher for bringing forward today's debate and for his long-standing commitment to this vital issue. I also wish to thank the Fire Brigades Union for their work on firefighter safety and to make clear our support for the FBU’s campaign to reduce the risks of cancers that firefighters face.

This was an issue that was first raised with me at the social partnership meeting, which I chaired. From that, I met the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care to discuss this matter further. And, as all Members have said, firefighting is an inherently dangerous profession, and it’s essential that fire and rescue services prioritise firefighter safety. Although workplace health and safety is primarily the responsibility of employers rather than Government, the Welsh Government has a very strong interest in ensuring that firefighters are as safe as possible in carrying out what is an inherently hazardous role.

We therefore support the Fire Brigades Union’s campaign to reduce the risk of cancer that firefighters face. Those risks arise largely from the use of breathing apparatus that has not been properly cleaned and maintained. Employers have a legal and moral obligation to safeguard their staff from hazards at work. Two years ago, our social partnership forum for fire and rescue services discussed and agreed a package of measures to reduce the risk. These included best practice in the use and maintenance of breathing apparatus, and fitness and medical checks for serving firefighters. These measures are similar to those advocated in other countries, for instance by the highly respected National Fire Protection Association in the United States. All three fire and rescue services in Wales have adopted best practice in the use and maintenance of breathing apparatus, which helps reduce exposure to carcinogens significantly, thus reducing the risks to firefighters.

Our chief fire and rescue adviser and inspector has also promoted the use of firefighting tactics that minimise the need to use breathing apparatus at all, in the interests of both safety and effectiveness. He has facilitated training for Welsh firefighters from experts in the Netherlands and the United States, where such tactics have been in use for some time. I’m pleased that all three Welsh services have taken advantage of this.

Services such as Mind’s blue light programme offer a series of mental health and well-being support for emergency services staff and volunteers across police, fire, ambulance and search and rescue services. We expect employers to signpost schemes to support firefighters wherever possible. And as I mentioned earlier, following recent discussions with the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care, we are also taking steps to raise awareness of the risks amongst NHS clinicians. All three fire and rescue services provide regular fitness and medical checks for their firefighters. The UK National Screening Committee does not recommend any targeted screening programmes based on occupation, but the NHS does offer diagnostic investigations in line with guidance from professional bodies such as the National Institute for Health and Care Excellence.

Our new chief medical officer is aware of the research paper that the FBU commissioned and of the other relevant research in this area. And I fully agree that we need to learn from global research and practice in other countries. Our chief medical officer will work with experts and relevant UK bodies to consider the evidence and evaluate the research on this subject, and I understand is likely to seek further expert toxicological advice, and further action will follow, as appropriate.

In closing, I’d like to thank the Member for bringing this debate here today, and I’d like to reassure the Senedd that we remain fully committed to addressing these risks as effectively as possible. We will continue to work in social partnership with employers and unions to do so, and I will keep Members updated with our progress. Diolch.

I call on Luke Fletcher to reply to the debate.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Thank you to all Members who contributed to this debate today. Altaf made some important points, actually, around the toxins that are released when a fire begins. I mean, we knew, as kids, not to put plastic on the camp fire because of the toxins that are released, well, when a house is burning down, think of everything in that house that is burning at the same time. It's not just the plastics that you might have in your cupboard because of the Tupperware, it's also the fire-retardant sofa that is releasing a lot of chemicals into the air when it catches alight eventually. It's all of the treated wood that there is around the house and all sorts, so it's amplified a thousand times more than when you simply chuck plastic onto a camp fire. That's what people are facing: they're going straight into those fires without thinking about their own health, to put them out to safeguard our constituents.

When I was on call with the fire service in Bridgend, we were called out to one house. Luckily, it wasn't a huge fire, but what had happened was that somebody had left a dog bowl on the stove while it was on, which then caused the fire alarm to go off. The dog bowl was plastic, we had to open all of the windows and we had to make sure that the proper procedure was followed, because just simply entering that house would have been a risk to the firefighters' health.

Rhys is bang on in what he's saying around, specifically, all of these different cases that we've had and we've seen amplified over the last couple of years, where Governments have been presented with evidence that there is a problem and a serious issue, but have not acted. I don't want to be in a position in ten years' time where we look back at this and there's a huge scandal within the fire service, where the Government has been unwilling to act and unwilling to take forward the recommendations that have been set out in an independent report by very reputable people. That's not a position that I want to be in and I know that's not a position the Government themselves want to be in either.

I think it's important to note, actually, that best practices within the fire service are a lot better than they were. A lot of those recommendations that the Minister referred to through the social partnership council have been taken up by the different fire services across Wales and have been shown to improve quality of life on the job. Simply reminding people to shower after they've come back from a fire goes a long way, when you think about the fact that, beforehand, people were going back to the station still in the same clothes, picking up their sandwiches or whatever with their hands full of soot, and they were ingesting all of that as they were eating their food. So, practices have changed.

I was a bit concerned, just around the wording of what the Minister said here, that the Government has a strong interest in this. Well, you need a bit more than a strong interest in this, if I'm going to be completely blunt here. The reality is, and I've said the figures in setting out this debate, but I'll repeat one of them, which I think is a shocker for everybody who ever hears it: firefighters are 323 per cent more likely than the general population to develop cancer—323 per cent more likely. I think the Government needs to have more than just a strong interest in ensuring that we get the right procedures in place and get the right things in place. I'm completely glad that the United States, Canada, Australia didn't just take a strong interest, they took action. They ensured that there was preventative health monitoring in place specifically for firefighters to head off some of these things before they can develop.

I mentioned in my speech Lisa Jenkins, who came to the Senedd and talked about her experience, and Rhys also mentioned the number of conversations he has had with firefighters and their families. It wouldn't take a lot of effort to go to the fire service, speak to the firefighters and find out these stories—they’re a dime a dozen, almost. People who are of a young age are getting cancer and dying young because of the job that they are doing. It simply isn't right, and I do not want to be in a position in ten years' time where we look back at this and think, ‘We could have done something.’ I would encourage the Government to go beyond just taking, simply, a strong interest in this issue. I would encourage the Government to go beyond simply just putting the emphasis on the employers to sort this out. This requires national leadership, just like it required it in the United States, just like it required it in Canada, and just like it required it in Australia. The Government needs to show leadership on this.

I'll be really interested to see what the chief medical officer says in all this, but I am going to emphasise what I said towards the end of my opening: every single delay is going to result in more deaths due to cancer. This is not something that we can drag our heels on any longer. The report came out in 2023, it is now 2025, 2026 is around the corner and it's going to come before we know it, so the Government needs to act on this now and not simply drag its heels, because that is what I am afraid of happening, and what it seems to me and other people outside of this place is happening at the moment. People will not forgive us for delaying on this, so I would encourage the Government to move on this issue, not to wait for the chief medical officer, and get to work on putting that preventative health monitoring in place for those firefighters who deserve it—it’s the least they deserve.

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes, there is objection. I will defer voting under this item until voting time.

Item 6 today is a debate on the Petitions Committee report, 'P-06-1482: Ban smartphones in all schools in Wales (with exemptions for exceptional circumstances)'. I call on the Chair of the committee to move the motion, Carolyn Thomas.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. On behalf of the Petitions Committee, thank you for the opportunity to introduce the debate today. The petition was submitted by Zena Blackwell and closed on 7 January 2025 with 3,369 signatures. The petition reads:

'Ban smartphones in all schools in Wales (with exemptions for exceptional circumstances).

'Inspired by the movements Smartphone Free Childhood and Delay Smartphones, as well as recent compelling research on the profound negative effects of smartphones on children, we call on Senedd Cymru to ban them in all schools in Wales, with exemptions for exceptional circumstances. Smartphone use poses significant wellbeing and safeguarding concerns. We are deeply worried about our children's social development and mental health and believe all pupils have the right to a smartphone-free school.'

The petition went on to highlight that children’s mental health is at an all-time low, the research that shows the impact that phone use, screen time and access to social media is having on them, and that this is an issue that many countries are grappling with. They are also highly addictive. I would like to thank Zena Blackwell for raising this critical issue via the petitions process and prompting the committee’s inquiry.

Our school focus groups and stakeholder event were really informative. But although there was plenty of evidence of the harms associated with smartphones, and the benefits of restricting use in schools, there certainly wasn’t a clear consensus that an across-the-board ban, even with some exceptions, was the way forward. 

It's a complicated issue, but we soon reached the view that the word 'ban' wasn’t realistic or helpful. We think a clear policy framework and guidance on how best to implement restrictions is better. Calling schools 'smartphone-free schools' is also preferred to using the word 'ban'. The Children’s Commissioner for Wales, NSPCC Cymru, Barnardo's Cymru and Parents Voices in Wales all raised concerns about introducing a ban in all Welsh schools, and last month, the Children’s Commissioner for England also agreed it was best left to the professionals—headteachers—to decide how to manage this issue.

Diabetes UK were quick to point out that smartphones help children effectively manage their health condition throughout the day. Likewise, young carers and pupils who are neurodiverse or have additional learning needs particularly rely on their phones. Anyone using public transport needs a smartphone to manage their journey to and from school. Parents want a way to connect with their child. And by the time you are 16 and preparing for the world of work, you need to have mastered a smart device for any number of reasons.

Welsh Government also has a minimum standard for digital inclusion for everyone in Wales, and this includes access to a smartphone and data. Although, by year 6, 83 per cent of pupils have a smartphone, our report certainly raised the point that not every family can afford to provide their child with the latest state-of-the-art phone, and some smartphone-free schools offer alternative technology during the school day for research, such as iPads.

Classroom teachers, though, were generally more supportive of a general ban and told us that phones cause all sorts of problems in schools. We heard some quite shocking evidence on this. On the one hand, schools can set a precedent and support children and parents with restricting phone use during the school day, but online safety and the safe use of digital technology is a job for parents and carers, and for the whole community.

We all struggle with the addictive nature of phones. There’s the strong argument that children are that much more vulnerable and need greater protection, but they also need to learn how to safely function in a digital world. Legislators, and society in general, are still struggling to find the right answers. So, I welcome the fact that the Cabinet Secretary says she is due to meet with Ofcom shortly to further discuss mobile phone and social media usage.

The committee’s report made five recommendations. In addition to asking the Welsh Government to work with the Welsh Local Government Association and others to implement a robust policy framework and practical guidance to support schools, we also want Ministers to keep looking at the emerging evidence. The evidence base is still quite limited, but is growing all the time.

As a committee, we felt strongly that something has to be done, but actions need to be evidence based. Schools that already have restrictions can demonstrate the benefits, and schools are making child-centred exceptions where they need to. The restrictions may vary, though, and perhaps more consistency across Wales will also support schools to engage with parents and get them onside, which is really important, because sometimes it will be the parents who are initially more resistant to these restrictions and changes.

I'm pleased that the Government has accepted three of our recommendations in full, and the Cabinet Secretary has accepted the other two in principle, subject to bringing together key people and experts to look at these issues further. That is very encouraging. Sorry, I should have said ‘key partners’, not ‘key people’.

The response acknowledges that technology is constantly evolving, along with the tools and the sites that phones give access to. I also note the Cabinet Secretary says she has been receiving increasing calls for advice, and I think this shows our work on this issue, prompted by this petition, has been very timely. The recognition that we need to engage with all stakeholders on the development of a national framework linked to work on behaviour in schools is also important. The response notes the importance of supporting parental engagement, while also being mindful of teacher workload.

I welcome the positive response to our view that the language used is really important, and that guidance needs to be framed in a way for children and young people and their parents to understand the rationale behind it. I also note that the Cabinet Secretary is reserving her position on the issue of how exemptions are handled as part of the framework and guidance, and how consultation will be carried out, but the dialogue with key partners and experts is the critical thing.

The response to recommendation 5, to keep following the evidence, is really important in this ever-changing area of policy. I welcome the commitment to ensuring that those involved in discussing a national policy framework and guidance are aware of the latest evidence and data to inform their deliberations.

Finally, I thank the petitioners for bringing this hugely significant issue to Members' attention, and I look forward to today's debate.

Can I thank the Petitions Committee for preparing the report, and also the 3,369 people who took the time to sign the original petition?

This is a topical, contentious and deeply complex topic, and it's something I've given a great deal of consideration to since my role of being in the position of shadow cabinet secretary for education. What is clear, though, is that we cannot continue with the current status quo. Something needs to give. It's just a matter of working out how that change will indeed look for us. Personally, I do not share the committee's conclusion that smartphones should not be banned outright. I believe a universal ban, apart from in exceptional circumstances, for example if a child has medical needs, is exactly what indeed is needed.

Mobile phones can indeed be a major distraction, taking our students' focus away from learning, which is exactly what schools are for. Just having a phone nearby, even not in use, can impair cognitive performance, according to research conducted by the University of Texas. Phones can also have a detrimental impact on the mental health of our young people and open the door to cyber bullying. In terms of online bullying, data from the Office for National Statistics has suggested that one in five children experience at least one type of bullying behaviour online, and out of them, around three quarters said at least some of it was experienced at school or during school time. Not only that, but the use of mobile phones in the classroom presents challenges for teachers and school staff as well. Instead of delivering lessons, teachers have to stop what they're doing to deal with the distractions.

Of course, children are going to use mobile phones in their day-to-day lives, there's no question about it, but we need to be taking steps to remove them from the classroom. The UK Government's national behavioural strategy found that 38 per cent of teachers and 57 per cent of pupils said that some, most or all of the lessons have indeed been disrupted by mobile phones in the previous week. According to a survey carried out by a parents' charity, one in five pupils say their lessons are disrupted by a classmate using a mobile phone.

The impact that will be having on students' learning is deeply concerning and troubling for me. Research carried out by Policy Exchange found that secondary schools in England with an effective ban on mobile phones were more than twice as likely to be rated outstanding as the national average. That same piece of research found that children in schools with an effective ban achieved GCSE results that were one to two grades higher compared to children at schools with laxer policies. In 2015, the London School of Economics found that schools where phones were banned saw a 6.5 per cent increase in test scores, with gains being highest amongst underperforming students.

Instead of an outright ban, the committee believes schools should get more support from the Government to set their own restrictions. However, the evidence shows that simply doesn't work, with one in eight pupils saying that schools never confiscate phones, even when rules forbidding them are ignored.

The Policy Exchange also found that most secondary schools say that they have some sort of ban in place on the use of mobile phones, but only 13 per cent of schools in England and Wales actually separate students from their phones for the duration of the school day. There needs to be a non-ambiguous, universal approach to this. We need consistency across the board.

My Conservative Westminster colleague, Laura Trott, Member of Parliament, has indeed been doing some great work on this important area, and it's a real shame that Labour politicians in London failed to back our proposals to ban smartphones in schools for under-16s. The evidence is overwhelming when it comes to the huge impact that smartphones in schools are having on children's attainment and well-being.

Branding a phone ban as unnecessary, as the Prime Minister, Keir Starmer, did recently, or claiming it's a gimmick, like the education Minister, Bridget Phillipson, in Westminster did, is totally wrong. More and more countries around the world are waking up to the damage phones are doing within our schools. I believe a ban, which sees phones locked up at the start of each school day in lockers and retrieved at the end of the day, is the best approach going forward. It's the right thing for teachers, it's the right thing for children, and it's the right thing for parents.

If we don't do this, I fear that we will all look back in a few years' time and wonder why we didn't act sooner. I'm looking forward to hearing everyone's views on this topic throughout this debate. Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer.

I'm pleased to have the opportunity to discuss this issue today, and I want to thank the petitioners for bringing this issue before us, and also the Petitions Committee for their very thorough inquiry. This is a very nuanced and sensitive subject, and it's clear that a one-size-fits-all approach is unlikely to provide a complete solution. Given the complexity, broad-ranging national guidelines with local implementation by schools, in co-operation with governing bodies and parents, might be the best way ahead.

If the Welsh Government introduced further guidance in this area, it's vital that all of the different elements are considered carefully. We have to strike, in my opinion, the right balance between not harming learners—and there is evidence, of course, that that's happening—and, on the other hand, preparing them for the technical world that we live in now, basing all of our decisions on research and robust evidence. Basically, we need to have a sensible and careful conversation with stakeholders in the sector, including the pupils themselves, in order to determine the action that we need to take.

I note with interest the private Bill that was introduced in Westminster, which the Government supports. The safer phones Bill does call for—and I'm going to list three things here—chief medical officers in all of the UK nations, including Wales, to publish guidance on the use of smartphones and social media by children within the next 12 months; the education Secretary to develop a plan for investigating the impact of the use of social media on children, again within 12 months; and the Government to report back within a year on whether the age of digital consent should be raised from 13 to 16. It would be beneficial to know, therefore, what discussions the Welsh Government has had with the UK Government in terms of this Bill.

If we were to restrict smartphone usage in schools, I would advocate for exemptions to ensure communication between parents and pupils in emergencies and to accommodate pupils who use smartphones to manage health conditions discreetly, such as diabetes, or their use by young carers. We could also explore educational programmes that teach children about responsible smartphone use and digital citizenship. I know a lot of this stuff is already on Hwb, but it's crucial these are regularly updated to keep up with this rapidly changing area. By empowering young people with the knowledge and skills to navigate the digital world safely, we can help mitigate some of the negative impacts associated with smartphone use.

It's also worth considering the role of parents and guardians in this conversation. Encouraging open dialogues at home about the benefits and risks of smartphone use can reinforce the guidance provided in schools and help create a more comprehensive approach to this issue. Of course, addressing smartphone use in schools doesn't tackle the impacts of smartphones on young children outside of school, and more must be done to reduce cyber bullying. While restricting phones during school hours may limit such actions during the day, we must also consider how to protect vulnerable young people from online bullying outside of school.

In conclusion, Dirprwy Lywydd, can I just thank the committee again for their work on this petition? I look forward to following closely the Welsh Government's actions in this area. Diolch yn fawr.

I would like to congratulate those who brought the petition forward and those who have signed it, because it has brought it to the Senedd today. I do think there are serious issues that need to be addressed in terms of smartphone use generally, and, obviously, as far as this petition is concerned, within schools.

I think it's probably true of technology generally, isn't it, that it brings benefits and disbenefits, as just about everything else does. With technology, it is difficult, I think, for Government and others to catch up with developments and to think about, let alone implement, effective regulation and control. It is a very challenging area in trying to keep up to speed with technological advance.

I do think there are particular areas of concern around smartphone use. As was said earlier, very often, when it comes to playing games on them, for example, companies employ psychologists very effectively, I think, to make them as addictive as possible. I see evidence of that in my own family, as I'm sure just about everybody else does.

As Cefin said, it's not just about school; of course it's not, it's about home as well. With regard to that, given that, I think, very many children from alarmingly young ages spend a lot of time on smartphones in the home, it would be good if we could restrict that use in school as some sort of compensatory measure, because if they're also on those smartphones at school, then it adds to the time that they spend using them.

I don't know whether any work has been done in terms of families who are relatively deprived and whether there are particular problems there, because, obviously, lots of middle-class children enjoy the mum's taxi experience of trying different activities outside of the school day; not all children have that experience. I wonder whether children in relatively deprived homes perhaps spend relatively more time on those smartphones and other screen use than is the average.

We do know that there are problems, and I know various studies have taken place. One study entitled 'The effects of mobile phone use on academic performance: A meta-analysis' found that the use of smartphones in classrooms leads to students engaging in non-school-related activities, which adversely affect recall and comprehension. A second, entitled 'The effects of smartphone addiction on learning: A meta-analysis' said it can take students up to 20 minutes to refocus on what they were learning after engaging in a non-academic activity.

We know there is considerable public support for restrictions and bans. An Ipsos poll found almost half of the UK public believe there should be a total ban on smartphones in schools. UNESCO, as of 2022, recorded almost one in four countries introducing bans on mobile phones in schools in either law or policy, 13 per cent of countries had bans enshrined in law, and 14 per cent use non-statutory policies or guidance. So, clearly, countries around the world are taking these issues very seriously, and I believe we need to do the same.

There are various possible methods of restricting smartphone use in schools, some more extensive and, some might say, draconian than others. Personally, I think whatever practical ways are found, it's right that children should be able to take smartphones to school, but they should not use them in school time except for exceptional circumstances. I think we've got various ways of doing that already in practice and in use in schools in Wales. I'm not particularly in favour of any one of those, but I do think that that policy that some schools have adopted of allowing children to take their phones to school but not using them in school time, except for those exceptional circumstances, is the right way forward.

Protecting our children was the most important issue for the committee, not to penalise or to ban, and I'm sure it's true to say, Chair, that as we took evidence, the views of many of us, perhaps, had shifted away from a full ban, because mobile phones are important to many school pupils, for those children who are carers, for those who have health issues. They are used in a number of schools now for learning and research purposes, and it keeps children safe on the way to and home from school.

As John Griffiths said, phones can be more of a problem at home than they are in school: children staying up late at night on their mobile phones, and very often that is when the bullying happens—at home, rather than at school.

Now, it's entirely clear that overuse of mobile phones is damaging to mental health, and maybe damages the mental health of children and young people more than the general population. Psychologists from America demonstrated that there was an increase of 50 per cent in cases of depression and anxiety among young people between 2010 and 2019, and it's true, every time we talk to young people, we see that, don't we, that anxiety is far worse now than it was when we were at school. Now, it's no coincidence, in my view, that that actually overlaps with the increase in the popularity of social media. We have seen recently, haven't we, the Adolescence tv programme, which gave us a view of the extreme problems of online influences.

Now, school has to be a refuge, a safe space, a place where children not only learn facts but also learn how to coexist and interact with others. Phones can be a clear barrier to this. Phones are distracting. They're distracting in a way that we didn't have that distraction in the past. We used to look out of the window or daydream—that was the distraction for us. Now the mobile phones are that distraction. It can undermine individuals' confidence, and it can lead to social pressures.

We heard clearly as a committee evidence of online bullying, and I'm sure that that wouldn't surprise any of us in this place. Now, naturally, technology is a powerful tool, and technology isn't going away, it's only going to develop. Technology can improve learning, it can nurture creativity within our children and young people in their lessons.

Now, John Griffiths said how addictive mobile phones are within his family. Well, for me, I don't need to look at my own family, because mobile phones are addictive to me, and I'm sure that if we looked around the Chamber at any given time, we would see some Members on their mobile phones. I won't call anyone out at the moment, but we ourselves are addicted to mobile phones, and it's true not only in this Chamber, but go to any cafe or park or go on public transport—many people are on their mobiles. 

Because mobile phones have been created to be addictive: the infinite scroll on social media, the auto play on YouTube, the notifications popping up on our phones all the time, and many more. They have been created to draw us all back to the mobile phone. If they are distracting to us, I think it's even worse for young people who know no different, who have been raised with this.

We must have control and clear boundaries within schools, in terms of the use of phones. The intention is clear—to create an environment where our children can grow and thrive without that ceaseless digital pressure, which surrounds us all outside the school gates, and we must ensure that the school itself is a refuge. Thank you.

It's a pleasure to take part in this Petitions Committee report debate this afternoon. I'd like to thank the Chair, Carolyn Thomas, and the members of the committee for this report. And I do agree with a lot of what the Member for South Wales Central says. I often say, anecdotally, and a personal view of mine is that people, our age roughly, are the last generation to have not grown up with that level of technology. So, I do see people within that age bracket, mid 30s to 40—we're probably the last generation to have not had that, and it does come with some pride, and perhaps with myself being a bit of a luddite. But I agree with the recommendations made in the report, and I'm reassured that the Welsh Government has agreed to them.

I have spoken in favour of school smartphone bans consistently in the Chamber, and called for a national framework, but I was disappointed that the Welsh Government rejected the idea when I raised it in November last year and January of this year. But I'm pleased now that the Welsh Government has responded to the evidence on the subject and agreed to implement a nation framework.

The evidence of the harmful effects of widespread smartphone use in schools has been available for quite some time, and the UK Government issued phone-restriction guidance to schools over 12 months ago. Two schools in my constituency in the Vale of Clwyd—Christ the Word Catholic School and Prestatyn High School—have already implemented restrictions on smartphones in the classroom, and they are seeing positive results already. So, it really goes to show that schools, at a local level, can indeed make those decisions. But, ultimately, what they need is that guidance and support from Welsh Government to ensure that there is a system across Wales in which schools can indeed engage within those processes, and indeed take those positive examples from other countries who have done similar things. And the evidence—[Interruption.]—for that national framework suggests that restricting phone use in schools can be effective. Yes, I will.

Thank you for taking an intervention. Talking about other countries doing things, in Scotland, in Portobello High School in Edinburgh, and in 250 schools across the UK, actually, they've introduced lockable Yondr pouches that can only be opened at the end of the school day and at the beginning of the school day, and unlocked by locking stations on the wall. I don't know if people are aware of that, but according to the headteacher, it's a massive success. Attention spans are up, bullying is down, and they've been really positive. So, don't you agree that the Welsh Government should look at that sort of scheme because it's been an example of success?

Thanks, Laura. Yes, absolutely, I do agree, and that model of looking at what those examples that are used in my constituency is a similar situation. It's almost like a—. 'Amnesty' is a bit of strong word, but a situation where you pop your phone in a pouch coming in, and you pick it up as you're leaving the classroom. I think that model is generally seen to be simplistic and works effectively. There are other examples in France, because they've banned phones altogether from 2018, with schools reporting a positive effect, with more social interaction, more physical exercise, less bullying, and better concentration within the classroom.

The American social psychologist Jonathan Haidt published an excellent book last year called The Anxious Generation, in which he lays out his argument that social media and smartphones have been the primary driver of the dramatic rise in anxiety, depression and other mental health issues amongst adolescents, particularly in girls. This is also combined with cognitive and academic disruption, social development impairment, sleep disruption and bullying. Restricting phone use in schools is not an anti-technology stance—of course, I welcome it, and I absolutely support technological advancement—but a pro-childhood and a pro-education policy that goes with that, where we can find a balance somewhere.

So, overall and in conclusion, I'm pleased that the Welsh Government has agreed to the report's recommendations, and I'd like to hear from the Cabinet Secretary a timeline for the framework, how far the Welsh Government intends to go with phone restrictions in schools, and how the Welsh Government will be prepared to respond to evidence coming out of the other countries more swiftly, so that the guidance can be updated and kept live here in Wales. Thank you.

I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Education, Lynne Neagle.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Can I start by thanking Carolyn Thomas and the Petitions Committee for the work they've put into this report and the consideration they've given to some very complex issues? It is, as the Chair says, very timely. This is, as their report shows, a difficult topic to consider, with a range of views across researchers, school staff, parents and children. I very much welcome the recommendations set out in the committee's report. Like the committee, I recognise that an outright national ban does not allow the space for schools to manage the needs of their learners. Our approach has always been to give schools the autonomy to make decisions on the use of mobile phones appropriate to their context. However, I also recognise the need for additional support for our senior leaders and practitioners, to enable them to balance the various considerations and to introduce an approach that is right for their school and their learners. In my response to the committee's report, I have accepted three of the five recommendations. I am also very sympathetic to the two I have accepted in principle and will now set out what we will be doing, what we are already doing and how we will be taking these recommendations forward.

Members know that I am very concerned about wider issues of behaviour in our schools and colleges. Last week, I chaired a round-table on violence and safety in schools and colleges, and later this month—next week, in fact—I am hosting our national behaviour summit. In line with the committee's recommendations, I recognise the importance of implementing a national-level policy framework and guidance on mobile phone usage within schools. However, it is critical that the development of any framework or guidance is taken forward through a process of open and transparent co-construction. And indeed, this was one of the messages received in the committee's evidence. To support this and as part of our wider work on behaviour, I am bringing together our key partners and relevant experts to look at mobile phone use in schools and to look at developing the guidance and framework. This group will have access to the necessary data and research to enable them to develop the guidance and framework the committee has called for. They will be able to delve further into the issues the committee have identified, and by working with schools, parents and children, will ensure the guidance provides the support needed.

As part of their remit, we will also ask this group to consider the other recommendations made by the committee. I have accepted the committee's second recommendation about the language we use, and the fifth around regularly reviewing the guidance. However, I have only accepted their second and third recommendations in principle. I feel strongly that if we are asking our partners and other experts to support our work, we should listen to what they say. I will therefore be asking them to consider and advise on the most effective approaches for schools to encourage parental engagement, while also taking account of any impact on teacher workload. I will also be taking account of their views on how we allow for any exemptions to the general rules on mobile phones, and how we take account of the needs of individual learners.

I am clear that everyone needs to be involved in this conversation: key stakeholders, senior leaders, practitioners, parents, carers and governors, but most importantly our children and young people, as ultimately this issue affects them. I recently met with the children and young people that sit on our keeping safe online youth group. We discussed the online safety issues arising from the television show Adolescence. Learners spoke honestly about their perspectives on the issues in the programme and, in return, I have committed to exploring opportunities to provide further support to learners, teachers and parents, particularly in terms of raising awareness.

Learners have also previously shared their views on behaviour, social media and smartphones, including their strong views on the positives and negatives of an outright ban. In line with the committee's findings, the youth group suggested that stronger guidance and clearly, universally and uniformly applied rules would be more effective than a mobile phone ban during the school day. Their suggestions also included a greater need for education on the risks and safe use of phones and social media, rather than limiting access. I am committed to an ongoing dialogue to ensure that young people's voices provide the critical insights we need to support them to stay safe online. 

I would also like to align with the work that the NSPCC are leading with Platfform to establish a child safety online youth advisory group for Wales. I am acutely conscious of the need for learners to understand how to use digital devices safely and responsibly. Online safety in particular is a key feature in the mandatory relationship and sexuality education code, and educating young people on how to engage with social media is a cross-curricular issue. We continue to provide guidance to schools, learners and parents to raise awareness about digital resilience and safety on Hwb's 'Keeping safe online' area. This includes advice for schools, learners and their families on a range of digital issues, including mental health and well-being, the internet, balancing screen time and social media. We're also taking forward the national digital resilience action plan, which is designed—.

Just on what you said—and I thank you for the work that you're doing in that regard, because we all, I think, across the Chamber felt that that's important—specifically on upskirting, which I know is something that we were both—. On upskirting—I know we were both involved in the report around that—and the awful things that we heard, has there been a body of work done on that, in support of having that ban in school time of phones for that very reason?

Thank you, Laura. I wasn't involved in that committee report; I was Minister for mental health at the time. But there was a response from the Government and an action plan that was delivered as part of that work. 

The upcoming summit will include young people's voices. We're also exploring a working group with children and young people to take forward actions arising from the summit. The summit will also be informed by recent research and evidence, with input from Estyn, focused on the thematic reviews published this month on behaviour in secondary schools and FE in Wales. Welsh Government commissioned both reviews to better understand the issues that our practitioners are facing. The research and evidence underpinning our future actions, as the committee has said, must be rigorous and robust, and these steps through engagement and initial research commissions are crucial in laying firm foundations. I will also be further discussing issues in relation to mobile phone usage and social media with my counterparts across the UK to explore emerging research, existing approaches and to share best practice to address these shared issues. And as part of the wider evidence gathering, I will also be meeting with Ofcom later this month to discuss the issues in relation to online safety.

This investment in wider engagement and evidence gathering is not the end, as our long-term programme of work on behaviour is continually evolving to ensure that we emerge with a clear set of deliverable outcomes, not just a plan or further guidance. Next week marks the next stage of our journey towards open and honest dialogue in the behaviour space. I look forward to the collaborative discussions throughout the summit, providing opportunities to freely discuss current issues and share practice to inform next steps. Clearly, there is much work to be done. Following the summit, I will share information about our broader programme of work and future engagement strategy—

You need to conclude now, please. 

Our vision is to chart a course that empowers all our young people to thrive in safe and supportive learning environments.

And can I conclude by thanking the committee again for their work? Diolch.

I call on Carolyn Thomas to reply to the debate.

I'd like to thank all the Members for their contributions today. I’d like to thank the Cabinet Secretary for your response, as well.

Natasha says she supports a ban. Many schools are mobile-free, and we did find out it actually works better when mobile phones are actually put away for the whole day, rather than just kept to one side, because they're tempted to look at them at lunch times, and they get distracted.

Laura Anne mentioned that some schools have cabinets where they're actually taken away and removed, and put in cabinets. Some schools already have cabinets and pouches, but there was an issue with the cost of them as well, the expense. So, that's something to consider going forward.

Cefin said we've got to consider the balance, haven't we, of not harming, but preparing for the technical world, and we need to have more educational programmes about the safe use of mobiles, and engaging parents as well, so they understand as well. And more actually needs to be done outside of schools. We can't just rely on banning them in schools; we need to work together.

John and Rhys talked about the addictive nature. I think we all can relate to that. And we had evidence about the impact on the brain development of young people. So, young children that have screen time, we saw evidence about the impact it has on them, on young children, so we need to have careful consideration about that.

John also mentioned that perhaps those from deprived communities that couldn't go to after-school clubs spent more time on their phones as well. Maybe that's a consideration; we didn't look at that.

Rhys, yes, we did—you're a member of the committee—we presumed a ban would be the right way forward, didn't we? We went and we thought, ‘Yes, that'd be it. Everybody would support a ban.’ It was funny, because the headteachers liked to have, to make, their own individual choices, but the teachers would have liked a ban. It was really interesting listening to all the different groups, but the conclusion was nuanced, as we've heard today.

Gareth raised about the importance of a national framework for supporting guidance from Welsh Government, and we really welcome that.

So, Cabinet Secretary, I really welcome all the engagement you're having, the summit on behaviour in the summer is really good—this ties into it—and that group looking at the use of mobile phones in schools, which, taking evidence, will be really important, going forward, to look at that guidance.

And I just want to finish by saying it was really—. I've got to thank Zena Blackwell and the campaigners for submitting the petition, all those who contributed to the inquiry through the stakeholder event and the focus groups our citizen engagement team held in the schools. It was a really interesting and topical inquiry, and today's debate has been no different. These are some really important and thorny issues to address. We're talking about children's safety and well-being. Everyone has to take responsibility for finding answers, and we need to keep talking about it and what's the best approach, and how we can support schools, parents and young people to manage smartphone use. They say it takes a village to raise a child, and, when it comes to online safety, we need to find a way to work together, the community, on this. This report and the Government's response are a positive step on that journey. Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer, for the time.

The proposal is to note the committee's report. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Item 7, the Welsh Conservatives debate on taxation, and I call on Sam Rowlands to move the motion.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I'm pleased to be able to move the motion today in the name of my colleague, Paul Davies. And why have we laid this debate here today? The fundamental issue is that the economic picture in Wales is abysmal. Pay packets here are the lowest in Great Britain, whilst unemployment rates are the highest in the country, and this comes at a time when businesses are slapped with the highest business rates, higher than Scotland or England, and more businesses, sadly, are dying in Wales than being created. Overall, it's a picture of poor economic management and wastefulness. No surprise, of course, after 26 years of lethargic, out-of-touch Welsh Labour in Government in Cardiff Bay. Now, throw in a British Labour Government in London that imposed an emergency budget that by any measure has been truly disastrous—the Starmer-Reeves budget saw the independent Office for Budget Responsibility halve growth forecasts for this year and confirm that inflation and unemployment will rise, but also that the British Government is set to borrow more and more—throw in Labour's job tax, and it's no wonder that there's little to cheer about. It's clear that the people of Wales are paying the price for Labour.

I know and the Conservatives know that Welsh people are innovative, full of potential, but they're being stymied by Labour at both ends of the M4. They need a Government in Cardiff and Westminster who know how to create the right environment for economic growth, lifting people out of poverty and stagnation. Now, next year offers a golden chance to fix Wales, to kick out Labour and their allies in Plaid Cymru and the Liberals, and to elect a Welsh Conservative Government with a commonsense approach to encourage prosperity.

Whilst the Welsh Labour Government have squandered hundreds of millions on vanity projects, ranging from the default 20 mph speed limit to bloated Senedd reform, Welsh Conservatives are calling for public money to be spent effectively on the areas where that money is really needed. When the Welsh NHS has the highest waiting lists in the UK, and a fifth of Welsh school children are leaving primary school unable to read, it's morally wrong for hundreds of millions to be spent on Labour's vanity projects.

There are so many examples of wasteful Welsh Government spending, whether it's the millions squandered on overseas offices from New Delhi to New York, or all the Welsh Government buildings sitting virtually empty across the country, with employees sitting at home. A Welsh Conservative Government will absolutely prioritise rooting out waste, driving out inefficiency, and deliver better value for money.

But not only that; we will use devolved tax powers to put more money back in people's pockets. Conservatives trust people with their own money, unlike Welsh Labour. We will be delivering a 1p cut to the basic rate of income tax, with 1.7 million people receiving a tax cut, meaning the average working family will be £450 a year better off. We believe people up and down Wales know how to spend their money better than a Government does.

We know there are plenty of inefficiencies and waste in Welsh Government that can be slashed to fund this tax cut. We're also proposing other commonsense measures that will boost economic growth and job creation across the Welsh economy, dealing with those issues that I outlined from the start, creating prosperity and driving growth across the country. We believe the Welsh Government should restore business rates relief to 75 per cent for the retail, hospitality and leisure sector, and eliminate business rates for small businesses. Let's back our businesses, instead of Labour's usual tactics of taxing them into oblivion. A thriving private sector creates jobs, growth and prosperity and supports the public services that we all so desperately need.

Finally, Deputy Presiding Officer, the spectre of council tax hikes hangs over Wales each year. We believe people in local authorities throughout the country feel left out of this process and we believe that people should have a say through local referendums, with any council proposing a rise over 5 per cent in a single financial year to have a referendum in place so that local people can have a local say on their taxation. This deepens the democratic process, which I hope colleagues across the Chamber will support, giving more people more say over how much taxpayer cash is taken by councils. [Interruption.] Not at all.

So, if you're going to cut taxes and not increase council tax, how would you propose we fund public services, which have already been declining because of the UK Government Tory austerity?

You're absolutely right about the UK Government not supporting Wales properly, and Welsh Government, as you know, are responsible for delivering services, funding council services here in Wales. I've already outlined the amount of waste that this Government spends every single year, spending money on areas that need to be spent on essential services across Wales. But, fundamentally, we believe differently in that we believe people can make responsible decisions for themselves. Taxation has to happen because some people need that support, but we need to do it responsibly, and waste needs to be eliminated from public spending.

So these packages of proposals—income tax reduction, supporting our businesses through business rates reductions, supporting our communities through democratically responsible decisions through a local referendum on council tax rises when they're over that 5 per cent threshold—these would be the start of economic change in Wales: pragmatic proposals bringing an end to 26 years of stagnation through Welsh Labour. I encourage all Members to vote for the Welsh Conservative motion this evening. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

I have selected two amendments to the motion. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be deselected. I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Welsh Language to formally move amendment 1.

I move.

I call on Heledd Fychan to move amendment 2, tabled in her name.

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. The message that came through very clearly today from the Tories' motion and the speech we've just heard is that they are not serious about being in Government. How else could one explain a call to cut almost £300 million from the Welsh budget, without explaining where that money will come from?

In terms of council tax, their call shows a lack of understanding about how local government is funded, as well as a lack of recognition of the additional costs, along with work, involved in holding such a referendum. And despite their claims of being a low-tax and pro-business party, under the previous Tory Government, taxes as a share of UK GDP rose to their highest level in over 70 years, while their disastrous hard Brexit continues to harm taxpayers and businesses alike. Unfortunately, although we have bidden farewell to the Tories from 10 Downing Street, any hope for change with the arrival of a Labour Government has also been dashed.

The pledges of no additional taxes on working people and no more austerity have been utterly demolished by their actions on national insurance, with the Office for Budget Responsibility stating that it will lead to stagnating real wage growth, and by the withdrawing of the winter fuel allowance, which, as we know, the Older People’s Commissioner for Wales has estimated will cause 4,000 excess deaths in Wales. And then, of course, there are the cuts to the welfare budget, which will push thousands of Welsh citizens into the throes of poverty.

We raised these fundamental inconsistencies in Labour’s spending plans time and time again in the weeks leading up to the general election, and now those warnings are materialising. What is clear is that we are long overdue an honest conversation about public finances and our approach to taxation. We know that substantial investment in our public services is urgently required to repair the catastrophic damage of a decade and a half of Westminster austerity. Part of the solution, of course, will mean replacing the outdated Barnett formula with a fairer funding model for Wales—something that both Westminster parties have failed to deliver to date. But there is also a glaring need to realise the potential of devolution in the arena of taxation.     

Do we believe that Government should aspire to lowering taxes where possible? Well, of course we do, but it needs to be done fairly, proportionately, and without inflicting deep cuts to public services, which is precisely what the Tory proposal would do. And the reality is that Wales’s devolved fiscal levers, constrained as they are by the unwieldy one-size-fits-all income tax bands set by Westminster, are currently ornamental for all intents and purposes. This is why we have long called for the Senedd to be able to set Welsh-specific income tax bands, so that we can actually put these levers to use in supporting public services and fostering redistribution.              

Look at what Scotland have been able to achieve with these kinds of powers at their disposal. Over half of Scottish taxpayers pay less income tax than their counterparts in England and in Wales. And if the Tories were truly serious about lowering taxes for working people, they would support our position, but at every opportunity, they’ve opposed such calls. There are also the opportunities provided by the new powers that the Senedd now has in relation to the non-domestic rates multiplier, which Plaid Cymru would use to cut business rates for Welsh small and medium-sized enterprises.

So, let’s turn to council tax, where the problem can’t be solved by impractical and needlessly costly referenda, but rather by addressing the fundamentally regressive and outdated system itself. Plaid Cymru spearheaded work to establish a fairer model for council tax, which could have reduced council tax bills for thousands of low-income households. But despite promises to the contrary, this Labour Government kicked its implementation beyond this Senedd term. And as for the Tories? Nowhere to be seen, as always.   

Finally, at a time when the public purse is under such strain, there does need to be a renewed effort on the part of both the Welsh and UK Governments to identify sustainable efficiency savings. A good place to start would be to scrap the Tory vanity project of a hard Brexit. At least £87 million of the Welsh budget is currently being swallowed up by the need to establish new border control posts and cumbersome regulatory arrangements, while the broader impact of extra red tape and barriers to our largest trading partners have hurt the Welsh economy to the tune of £4 billion. We need to see far more purposeful movement on the part of the Welsh Government towards a preventative agenda in healthcare as well.

These are the kinds of actions that would go some way towards rebalancing our beleaguered public finances. So, if the Tories are serious about offering credible solutions to the problems that have largely been created by their own party, they should support our amendment today.

The Welsh Labour Government is out of touch, out of ideas and out of excuses. Welsh pay packets are the lowest in Britain. The average full-time wage in Wales is now more than £3,000 a year less than the UK average. For years we’ve heard empty promises from Ministers about a stronger, fairer, greener economy, but where is it? Hundreds of businesses, alongside 19 Welsh pubs, closed last year, marking the loss of an integral part of our towns and villages, but why? Because these Labour policies are actively hostile to business. Slashing business rate relief from 75 per cent to 40 per cent, alongside national insurance increases, has dealt a massive blow to small businesses already hanging on by a thread.

Under Labour, council taxes have spiralled out of control. This year, families across Wales saw hikes of 8 per cent, 9 per cent or even over 10 per cent in some areas, far above inflation, yet services are worse, not better. If council tax had grown at the same rate as in England since 2010, the average band D household in Wales could be £350 a year better off. This is not small change to most hard-working families across Wales. But what have they got to show for these punishing increases? Bins missed, roads crumbling, potholes not being filled in and local services cut to the bone. Enough is enough. 

This motion calls for action, real change that puts power and money back in the hands of people, and that's what you can expect under the Welsh Conservatives. We are calling for efficiency savings across non-essential budgets, excluding health, education and farming, to deliver that 1p cut in the basic rate of income tax and let people keep more of their hard-earned money; restoring the 75 per cent business rate relief for retail, hospitality and leisure to help businesses, but in particular the family-run cafes, the local pubs and the corner shop that make up the backbone of our communities; eliminating business rates for small, independent businesses, which force small businesses to pay the same crippling rates structures as global chains; and perhaps most crucially, local referendums for council tax hikes over 5 per cent, in line with England. Let me be absolutely clear—

Will you take an intervention?

Yes, of course.

How much should we budget for those referenda? Have you costed how much it would cost to hold those—annually, I presume?

Hopefully, it would act as a preventative measure and stop councils from going over that 5 per cent, surely. I don't think you can take a second intervention. We want to put off councils going over 5 per cent, don't we, unless of course you're supportive of them being over 5 per cent.

This is not about austerity. Unlike Labour, the Welsh Conservatives would lower taxes for working people by £450 a year. This is all about priorities. Labour seem to find endless pots of money for vanity projects like bloated Senedd expansion costing £18 million, pet projects and endlessly delayed schemes like the £1.4 billion Heads of the Valleys road. Meanwhile, local authorities across Wales are sitting on millions of pounds in reserves and council chiefs are enjoying absurdly high salaries funded by taxpayer money. The chief executive of Cardiff, as I said earlier, his salary is higher than that of the First Minister and Prime Minister.

We need a Government that looks after taxpayers' money, that listens to local voices, and that understands that growth, prosperity and fairness don't start with bureaucracy and hiked-up taxes, but with freedom—the freedom to build, the freedom to earn, the freedom to invest and the freedom to thrive. The Labour-led Government is failing Wales. It's time for change, and I urge you to support our motion today. Diolch.

A few months ago, we debated the budget, where both the Conservatives and Plaid Cymru were able to identify additional spending with little or no savings. Now we get their views on taxation—it might have been more useful if we’d had them then. The Conservatives' view could be summarised as that they do not like taxation. But taxation is the price we pay for being part of a civilised society. We cannot have Scandinavian-quality public services and American levels of taxes. Taxation exists to pay for public services. Too many people believe that we can have the same quality of public services as Scandinavia, but American levels of taxation. When you look at the cost of private education and private health, it puts into perspective the value for money we get from our taxation system. It's not by random chance or serendipity that those countries with the highest tax levels have the best public services, and those with the lowest tax levels are the poorest. Taxation is necessary to raise the money to pay for the public services we all need.

The suggestion of efficiency savings is one I strongly support, but why exclude health, schools and farming budgets? We need efficiency savings and improved productivity across the Welsh economy. It makes no sense to say that you can have efficiency savings in social care, but not in health. Productivity is a huge problem. We're 20 per cent less productive than France and Germany. We could work four days a week and do the same as they do in France and Germany. That has got to be wrong. Health has an opportunity with artificial intelligence to improve productivity and produce substantial efficiency savings. We could also have better and more efficient use of equipment, keeping designated operating theatres available for routine but necessary operations, such as cataracts and orthopaedics, to improve the productivity of surgeons and the outcomes for patients. Efficiency savings are available in education, administration and in the confederation of small schools in the same area under one headteacher. Why can't the farmers become more efficient? Why is New Zealand lamb, which is unsubsidised, and Australian beef, with very little subsidy, cheaper in Welsh shops than highly subsidised Welsh lamb and beef, despite travelling across the world? Why should farming be excused from the need to be more efficient?

On council tax, the average band D council tax bill in Wales is, this year, £110 lower than in England, and more than 256,000 low-income households in Wales receive support with their bill through the council tax reduction scheme. Also, in some council areas, most council tax payers are in bands A, B and C. On council tax, I will again say what I've said several times before: there needs to be change. The multiplier is absolutely wrong when you've got somebody in a band A property paying two thirds of what somebody is paying in a band D property, and somebody in a band D property paying over half of what somebody is paying in a band H property, which is worth at least three times, probably four times, the value. I think the council tax set banding doesn't work. It's unfair and it's not proportionate to the value of the property. All councils need a council tax that's a fixed percentage of the value of the property—I've said that continually. It may be slightly wrong when you get the values of them, but most of them will be about right.

To Plaid Cymru, the UK Government has not broken its promise to not increase taxes on working people. Employers' national insurance is a tax on employers, not employees. It should enthuse employers to improve productivity and efficiency, which is a huge problem, and I think that's one thing we have all agreed on this afternoon: we need to improve productivity and efficiency. Plaid Cymru are always keen on spending more money, but not on raising it. The smallest attempt at increasing the tax on wealth that the UK Government has brought in, they have strongly opposed.

Can I again explain that, although there are flaws in the Barnett formula, we in Wales get substantially more than our population share and our share of taxation collected? Plaid Cymru are suggesting increasing rates on large retailers and to use that money for smaller retailers. We've already lost many large retailers such as Debenhams. Why Plaid Cymru want to use the rate system to increase business rates for the few large retailers we have left, such as Marks and Spencer, must be a cause for concern for most of us. Is it still Plaid Cymru's policy for an independent Wales to not fund the state pension or Wales's share of the national debt?

We know that ratepayers in the retail, hospitality and leisure sector have received more than £1 billion in additional business rate support over the last six years, and almost half of all ratepayers pay no business rates at all. We also know that for many retailers it's rent rather than rates that is the most expensive. I've had personal experience of a business in hospitality whose costs increased each year. They paid combined rent and business rates. The landlord said the increase was nothing to do with them, but was due to the increased rates. When I investigated the business, the business was small and zero-rated.

Finally, if you want quality public services, you have to pay for them via taxes. Asking for more expenditure and less tax does not create a coherent economic policy.

'It's the economy, stupid.' A strong economy is important because it underpins nearly every aspect of a healthy, functioning society. From jobs and incomes to funded public services, from opportunities for the next generation to living standards, it all depends on the economy, stupid.

However, Wales stands at a critical economic turning point. The decisions we take now on tax and business policy will determine whether we can grow our economy or continue to fall behind the rest of the United Kingdom. And right now, the warning signs here in Labour-run Wales are plain to see. Wages are the lowest in Great Britain. Unemployment is the highest in the UK. And our business community is being hammered, not by global shocks, but by political choices made in Cardiff Bay.

One of the most damaging has been Labour's decision to cut business rate relief from 75 per cent to just 40 per cent for retail, hospitality and leisure. This wasn't just a policy shift, it was a message that staying afloat in tough times would be met with punishment, not support. Business births are down, closures are up. Thousands of livelihoods hang in the balance, and yet the response from the Welsh Government has been silence.

And Labour's UK leadership is no better. They've increased employer national insurance contributions at the same time as lowering the threshold at which businesses start paying. That's not just a tax, it's a tax on jobs, on growth and on ambition. Today we've seen Burberry announce 1,700 job losses. Just weeks ago Beales, Britain's oldest department store, held a ‘Rachel Reeves closing down sale’, shutting their doors after 200 years of trading. And here in Wales, where employment is already at a 10-year low, the impact will be even worse. Because if you add to this the fact that Wales has the highest business rates in Great Britain, then it's clear: Labour has created a perfect storm of higher costs, lower support and no plan for growth.

The Welsh Conservatives offer a different path. We will restore the 75 per cent business rate relief for retail, hospitality and leisure, to give these vital sectors the breathing space that they need. We'll abolish business rates for small firms, helping them to invest, expand and hire. And we will cut the basic rate of income tax by 1p.

I make no apologies for being a low-tax Conservative. Because putting more money in the pockets of 1.7 million Welsh people while protecting the funding for health, education and agriculture, because we believe money is better spent by those who earn it than any Government can determine how that tax money is spent—. And because unlike Labour, we don't think every challenge requires a new tax. We believe in backing business, rewarding effort and trusting the people of Wales with their own money. It's time to stop punishing those who create jobs, generate investment and take risks. Let's build a tax system that works with businesses, not against them. That's how we turn the tide. That's how we fix Wales.

Once again we see Welsh Labour and Plaid Cymru choosing to ‘delete all’. You're simply not prepared to listen to another constructive motion from the official opposition party. Welsh Labour and Plaid Cymru simply do not want hard-working residents in Wales to have any tax cuts—much-deserved tax cuts. This is despite Welsh pay packets being the lowest in Great Britain, and council tax bills rising in Wales by an average of 7.21 per cent, but in Aberconwy, they've seen nearly 10 per cent council tax rises for the past three years, energy bills rising with the cap increase by 6.4 per cent, and water bills in Wales rising by 27 per cent. The residents of Aberconwy, north Wales, the whole country deserve and need to keep more of their own hard-earned income.

But of course, Plaid Cymru would make the pressure on the public purse even worse if they were in charge. And I have to say, I find it rather disingenuous when Plaid Members speak up here or on social media or in the newspapers condemning Labour when, for each Senedd term, and we're entering our seventh Senedd term, you have backed up some very poor decisions by cosying up to Labour. Then around two years before the election, suddenly you start pointing fingers at decisions you've actually supported. [Interruption.] Yes, go on.

Do you support our calls for the Welsh Government to seek the powers so we can set the rates here in Wales? Because if you have these ideas for taxation, surely we should be able to set them here. You're in favour of greater powers for us to determine here—you're ready to govern, are you? 

Frankly, my dear, we're very ready to govern—

There's no 'my dear' in this Chamber, okay? 

Well, frankly, I will tell you—. But, at the end of the day, when you see the powers that have been devolved to Wales, and how you and Welsh Labour have misused those powers, as far as I'm concerned, no, I don't want you to have those powers. I would not trust those powers in the hands of anybody other than the Welsh Conservatives. 

Independence. So, all the time—in fact, the last term and the term before—apart from voting through, supporting and working hard to see 36 more Members and fidgeting around with the voting system, you have spent your mind and your time off the ball in terms of making things better for Wales by pursuing your own independence agenda, yet it is not wanted by the people of Wales, but that doesn't stop you.

Wales already has the levers it needs to create a more prosperous and successful nation and I am proud that we, the Welsh Conservatives, have the policies to deliver. With Darren as our Welsh leader, it's exactly what the people of Wales need and deserve. Alongside putting more money into our residents' pockets, we will create more jobs, we will boost economic growth, and we will get rid of the massive waste of several millions of pounds that I have witnessed just in the 14 years that I've been here.

Between 2013 and 2023—10 years—the number of business deaths in Wales increased from 8,245 to 11,300. I'm sorry, but if I was running a country and I was in Government, I would be summoning all my Cabinet Ministers to be wanting to engage with the business sector, not to continue punishing them. During the same period, the number of business births has declined from 11,000 to 10,000. Business deaths now outnumber business births across Wales.

Our motion proposals are what our taxpayers want, and we are listening to them. The same is true in Conwy county, where 350 businesses were created while 360 closed down. Why is this? Entrepreneurs are under siege by the Welsh Labour Government. Genuine holiday let businesses are crippled by your out-of-touch 182-day holiday let rule.

We've been co-operating with the hospitality sector, and I tell anyone watching this if you're in the hospitality business: we would lower that to 105. In 2024, there were 7.61 million overnight trips taken in Wales, with a total of 22 million nights. That's down on 2023, when there were almost 1 million more overnight trips in Wales, with over 2 million more nights spent here. Businesses providing tourist accommodation have fewer customers, yet you are making their business viability even harder.

And the tourism tax—you should be ashamed of yourselves. According to the Federation of Small Businesses in Wales, the Welsh Government's decision to reduce business rates relief for retail, hospitality and leisure businesses from 75 per cent to 40 per cent in April 2024 has placed Welsh businesses at much more of a competitive disadvantage compared to England.

Farmers faced—. Oh, you've let them down as well. They face now having to spend up to £360 million on farm infrastructure, despite the spend resulting in zero business growth for them, with your—I've even forgotten—the NVZs, that's it. Shocking. A potential economic hit of up to £4.5 billion over 30 years because of 20 mph. Shame on you. I could go on, but the pattern is already clear. Welsh Labour have made Wales an anti-visitor, anti-worker, anti-business nation, but the Welsh Conservatives will turn that catastrophe on its head.

Wales should be pro business, and we will scrap business rates to small businesses. We will restore business rate relief to 75 per cent for the retail, hospitality and leisure sector. We'll scrap the tourism tax. We will boost high street footfall by making it easier to convert first and second floors to flats. We will use planning law to attract more entrepreneurs to north-west Wales. We'll make growing food in Wales a national mission—

I've been extremely generous. If you can draw your comments to a close. 

And stopping the disgraceful offshoring of Welsh jobs. Next May, the people of Wales have a say and they have a vote, and I genuinely believe if they vote Welsh Conservatives, that's when we'll have real change here in Wales.

The Cabinet Secretary for finance to contribute to the debate. Mark Drakeford.

Diolch yn fawr. I think Sir Winston Churchill, when he was defeated in the general election of 1945, was asked by a journalist what message he thought the electorate had given the Conservative Party, and he replied by saying he thought that the electorate had said to the Conservative Party that it needed to be a very long time before they heard from them again. That was good advice in 1945, and it's very good advice 80 years later. If there's any topic on which the Welsh public was entitled to a period of silence from the Conservative Party, then surely it was the economy. Because here is a party that gave the people of Wales austerity, was the party of Brexit, the party that raised taxes to a 70-year high. I listen always to Sam Kurtz telling me that he's a low-tax Conservative. Where was he in all those years where his party was raising taxes year after year?

One of the reasons that those taxes had to be raised, Cabinet Secretary, is because this Government, under your watch, wanted more money during the COVID pandemic, closed schools for longer, closed businesses for longer, and it was only right that those who benefited from financial packages during the COVID pandemic paid that money back through taxation.

You have to be very ingenious indeed to suggest that the reason why, at a UK level, taxes were at a 70-year high was because of COVID expenditure in Wales. I look forward to the textbook that analyses that assertion.

Despite the fact that they crashed the economy, here they come with their tired old rejected ideas again. Because let's be clear about what this motion actually says: it says that the Welsh Conservatives will cut income tax. They can't do it this year, of course, because they missed the boat on that, as Mike Hedges said. They could've proposed that and voted for it during the budget making. That means that the earliest that this could happen would be in the next financial year, and the OBR says that a 1p cut in income tax in Wales would cost £299 million.

Heledd Fychan said that, but, of course, it's worse than that, Llywydd, because the Conservatives are going to restore 75 per cent business rate relief. That will cost £52 million, and there's no Barnett cover for that at all, remember. There's no money coming from Westminster to cover that, so that's another £52 million you've got to take out of the Welsh budget. And they're going to abolish business rates for all small and medium-sized businesses. That's a cost of £309 million. So, the amount of money that this motion spends is £660 million. Then, of course, it goes on to tell us how to fund all of that. We mustn't touch the health budget, we mustn't touch the schools budget, we mustn't touch the farmers. So, that means the money will have to be cut, because that's what these savings mean, from what is left.

We heard the pretence that all that money—£660 million—can be found from waste. The last refuge of any economic scoundrel, it seems to me, that idea. And I listened very carefully, Llywydd, to try and find out where all this waste was to come from. Well, it's to come from closing our overseas offices. Believe me, if you are looking for economic growth, then you require investment in the economy, and that's what our overseas offices are for. They're there to make sure that economic opportunities that are here in Wales are well known in other parts of the world and attract the investment we need.

The other idea I heard was that it was to come from the Heads of the Valleys road. Well, the Heads of the Valleys road is spent. There is no saving at all to be made from that bright idea. Instead, the money will have to come from social services for older people, services for children in care, support for bus services, cuts to childcare and to colleges, cuts to support for businesses, cuts to housing support and homelessness services. Llywydd, there is no way at all, in the real world of Government, that the budget consequences of this motion could be accommodated without harm.

Will you take an intervention?

Yes, of course.

There is a particular irony, is there not, Cabinet Secretary, that you're stood today in an alternative Chamber because the other one has been closed down thanks to your and Plaid Cymru's plans to add more politicians to the Senedd here in Cardiff Bay. Will you recognise that it is the Welsh Conservatives that are the only party pledging to scrap those plans and to save the taxpayer after the next election?

I'm perfectly happy to acknowledge that the Welsh Conservatives are determined to stand in the way of making this Senedd the institution it needs to be, and if the tiniest fraction of additional scrutiny results in better spending of Welsh money, then that new Senedd will have paid for itself many, many times over.

Luckily, Llywydd, alternative and better policy choices exist to balance the needs to raise revenue on the one hand and to invest in our public services on the other. The hinge on which this turns is that of growth, in which a growing economy leads to growing tax revenues, which, in turn, leads to growing investment in those services.

The good news, Llywydd, is that far from the doom-mongers of the official opposition, the record of fiscal devolution in Wales is highly successful. Of course, fiscal devolution was the work of a Conservative Government: a set of responsibilities we have today for raising nearly £4 billion in income tax, landfill disposals tax and land transaction tax were those that emerged from the work of the Silk commission. I well remember the lectures that came our way at the time—how Wales would now have to look out because if our economy didn't keep up with the rest, then we would have to bear the responsibilities of reducing budgets, but the reality has been very different indeed. In fact, what we have in Wales is the OBR forecasting that for the rest of this decade, Wales will have an extra £634 million to invest in our services because of the way in which our income tax performance outstrips the rest of the United Kingdom. And in this financial year alone, land transaction tax and landfill disposals tax will add £343 million and £33 million respectively to our budget here in the Senedd, well in excess of any block grant adjustment.

The management of those responsibilities in this Senedd has been a significant success story, adding many millions of pounds to meet the needs of Welsh citizens. That's the real story of the last eight years, not the dismal rehearsal of the tired old clichés of this motion. It's why we remain able, amongst other important things, to invest £244 million every year to help low-income households with council tax, to provide £250 million every year through our permanent business rate relief scheme, in addition to the £1 billion provided over the last six years to support businesses in the retail, leisure and hospitality sector, and all of that on top of the £500 million it has taken to hold down the multiplier in recent years.

But, Llywydd, this is the red Welsh way: progressive and effective in our taxation; investment where the need is greatest; democratic responsibilities exercised as close as possible to people; and a commitment to grow the economy for all. All of that is captured in the Government amendment today. Vote to put the original motion out of its misery, and support a different and better future for Wales.

Darren Millar to reply to the debate.

Well, as entertaining as they are, I will take no lectures from Professor Drakeford on the economy. The damage that the Welsh Labour Government, along with their colleagues in the UK Labour Government, are doing to our nation in Wales and across the whole of the United Kingdom is appalling. They are trashing our economy, we've got taxes going up, unemployment going up, growth going down, new jobs tax, new inheritance taxes for people to pay, new tourism taxes on the way, and massive hikes in council tax that people are having to foot the bill for. Yet, they are getting less in return for those taxes: fewer bin collections, fewer libraries, fewer public toilets, yet more pot-holes, more litter on our streets. It is totally unacceptable, and that's why we need to see a change.

And I am proud to say that I'm a Conservative, because I believe in low taxation, unlike the parties on the left whose instinct is to tax anything that moves or anything that thrives and to choke the life out of it. I want to see a country that thrives, where businesses are being established, where we reward people for taking the risk of investing, to create the jobs that we can then tax in a fair way in order to get the results and investment that we can put into our public services.

They don't believe in low taxes, they believe in high taxes. Both Labour, I'm afraid to say, and Plaid Cymru are in the same boat on these things. And yes, absolutely, we believe we can save money. We see examples of waste day in, day out in our public services, including in the Welsh Government, and indeed in our local authorities. And the reality is that people are rejecting those high taxes, they're concerned about those high taxes, and they want a situation where their taxes go down. That's why we've committed to putting £450 into the pockets of the average hard-working family in Wales. That's why we've committed to a council tax policy, where, had it been accepted by the Labour Government when we initially proposed it 10 years ago, council taxes in Wales would be an average of £350 per year, per household lower in a band D than they currently are today.

Would you take an intervention?

And that is why we are saying we will back business—[Interruption.] We are the party of business. We will support businesses by getting their business rates down and having some fairness in our economy. I'll happily take the intervention.

Thank you. Before the UK Labour Government came into power, less than a year ago, half of the councils in England were facing bankruptcy. Luckily in Wales they had been protected more. If you continue down this same level of austerity, return to that, we will be seeing more disruption with our councils who, thanks the UK Labour Government, have enough funding now to be able to continue to deliver our front-line services. Do you not agree that it's really important to make sure our public services are properly funded?

I think it's a disgrace that people in Wales pay more, as a proportion of their lower incomes than elsewhere in the United Kingdom, on council tax than over the border in England. That is unacceptable, it's unfair, and it is a disgrace that people are paying more yet getting less in return for those taxes. And, of course, we heard from Heledd Fychan, the Plaid Cymru spokesperson, fantasy economics, because this is a political party whose aim is independence from the rest of the United Kingdom. An independent Wales would not be able to afford the current level of investment in public services in Wales without massively hiking taxes or massively cutting public services. That is the reality. You have no solution—[Interruption.]—you have no solution. I didn't agree with a lot of what Mike Hedges said, but he was absolutely right when he said that you wouldn't be able to fund pensions for people in Wales, or any other public service properly, because of the fantasy economics of independence, which wouldn't work. That's why we are proud to be a unionist party that believes in the United Kingdom and the strength that it brings. And let's face it, we would have been in a pickle if we were not part of the United Kingdom during that COVID pandemic, when we had all of the resources we needed—the fire-power that Mark Drakeford used to talk about and others used to talk about—simply because we were part of a strong United Kingdom.

Can you actually point to where I mentioned independence at all? My whole speech was in terms of showing the pitfalls in your argument, that you're not serious about governing. When I asked the question to Janet Finch-Saunders, in terms of our amendment, calling for the powers to be determined here in terms of income tax bands and so on—. Do you support those calls? Are you serious about governing? Because those are the kinds of calls that would make a difference to the people of Wales.

I know you don't like to talk about independence, especially when we're approaching election periods, because it spooks the public. It's not what the public want you to talk about, right. I understand that. I know that's why you get yourselves in a pickle around election times and you start panicking, 'Oh, we daren't talk about independence—the big elephant in the room.' I get that. I understand that. But we all know what that would mean for public finances in Wales. It would be an absolute utter disaster. Mike Hedges says we get Scandinavian-quality public services. Well, I was in Swansea recently; it looked as bad as other parts of Wales in terms of the quality of the public services—the pot-holes on the streets, unfortunately—and Swansea is a fantastic city. I want people there, as should be the case across the whole of Wales, to be able to be proud of the public services they receive, but I'm afraid, unfortunately, they aren't.

And we have a situation now where the finance Minister has actually initiated a review, of course, of the arrangements for income tax, because he wants to put them up. And we heard it from Plaid as well. They want to put taxes up. [Interruption.] You want taxes up. [Interruption.] You do—you want taxes up. You want council taxes to go up for lots of people in Wales as well. But this is not Bruce Forsyth's Play Your Cards Right. We want to see taxes down, efficient public services. We want to deal with the waste in our public services. We want to make sure—. We want to make sure that the bureaucracy budget, which has increased by £114 million over the past two years in the Welsh Government's own budget, goes down. We want to make sure that the money that's being poured into the drain at Cardiff Airport every single year—. Another £20 million a year that is going to be poured into that airport, an albatross around the taxpayers' neck—. We want to make sure, absolutely, that those international offices are closed. We've got a UK Government responsible for international affairs, not a Welsh Government.

We also, of course, are wasting money in Wales. The Welsh Government is wasting money, with the support of Plaid Cymru, on trying to explore the delivery of justice devolution and more constitutional reform, against the wishes of the Welsh public, and also against the wishes of the Welsh public, you want to spend tens of millions of pounds on more politicians, when we all know that the public do not want more politicians. They want more doctors, dentists, nurses and teachers. That's what they want. So, if there's money to invest in those things, there's money to invest in other things too. And what really irritates people as well—. What really irritates people is the money that this Government funnels into their friends in the unions—that money that comes back at election time to fund Labour Party campaigns. It is an absolute disgrace. And that is what happens. That is what happens. [Interruption.] I know you don't like it. I'm happy to take an intervention, if you want to give an intervention. Would you like an intervention, Cabinet Secretary? I'm quite happy to take one.

I'd just like your view on COVID corruption and those members of the Conservative Party who now can't even reside in the United Kingdom because of fear that the police will be breathing down their necks. What would you say to me about that?

I utterly condemn any corruption of any kind, including—. And, of course, concerns have been raised about the £27 million that was written off in respect of a loan that was given to a company chaired by a Labour donor here in Wales by the Welsh Government. I think any form of corruption is an absolute disgrace, whether that's money going to the unions to fund your campaign or anybody else. We need to make sure that people in Wales are not overburdened with tax. [Interruption.] We need to make sure—. Would you like to make an intervention?

I would.

Yes.

I would just like to ask the leader of the opposition to repeat what he said when he said that trade unions funding a political party is corruption. Is that what he means?

I have not said that. What I have said—[Interruption.] What I have said is the blatantly obvious to members of the public: that this Welsh Government funnels lots of money into the pockets of the trade unions for various schemes, and those trade unions go on to make donations to the Labour Party. That's what I said, and I've said that on a number of occasions in the past too. I know you don't like to talk about that, but it's the truth.

I think that is an accusation of corruption, which is completely inaccurate. The trade union movement supports the Labour Party through donations from its members. That is how it's done. It has nothing to do with what the Welsh Government—

Do you not have to declare an interest?

Yes, I do declare an interest.

And it receives money from the Welsh Government too. So, that is the point I'm making, and that is the point I have restated on many, many occasions.

So, what we want to see are lower taxes for individuals, lower taxes for businesses, more efficient public services and a system of taxation that is fair, that doesn't penalise those people who take the risks to create the jobs, create the businesses that go on to pay the taxes, and the customers pay the taxes, in order to fund our public services. Because that's a virtuous cycle. If businesses do well, everybody does well. So, I urge people: support the motion.

The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes, there are objections. And therefore we will defer voting until voting time. 

That brings us to voting time, and, unless three Members wish for the bell to be rung, we will move immediately to our first vote. That first vote this afternoon is on item 5, a Member debate under Standing Order 11.21(iv) on safeguarding the health of firefighters. I therefore call for a vote on the motion tabled in the name of Luke Fletcher. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 30, 15 abstentions, none against. Therefore, the motion is agreed. 

The next votes will be on item 7, the Welsh Conservatives debate on taxation. I call for a vote first of all on the motion without amendment, tabled in the name of Paul Davies. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 12, no abstentions, 33 against. Therefore, the motion is not agreed. 

We'll move now to amendment 1, and, if amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be deselected. So, a vote on amendment 1, tabled in the name of Jane Hutt. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 23, no abstentions, 22 against. And therefore, the amendment is agreed.

Amendment 2 is deselected. 

The final vote is on the motion as amended.

Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 23, nine abstentions, 13 against. And therefore the motion as amended is agreed. 

That concludes voting for this afternoon and that concludes voting time. 

We will move on now to the next item, which is the short debate, and today's short debate is to be presented by Heledd Fychan. You may make a start. As long as everyone leaves quietly, you can make a start. 

Thank you, Llywydd. Poverty is not inevitable, and there are steps that we as a Senedd, along with the UK Government, could take that would improve the lives of the people of Wales. That is the main thrust of my short debate today, and I am pleased to give a minute of my time to Sioned Williams. I would also like to thank Katie Till from Trussell in Wales, and also Andrew and Matthew from the Taff-Ely Foodbank for their support in preparing for this debate, and I'm pleased to welcome Andrew and Matthew to the public gallery today. 

I often consider how the history books will tell the story of austerity and how poverty was able to worsen at a time when others were able to enjoy an abundance of wealth. The normalisation of foodbanks is not something any Government should be proud of, and it should sober all of us that they have become such a central part of so many communities in Wales.

Trussell, who support a community of almost 150 food bank centres in Wales, have seen a significant increase in the need for emergency food over the past five years. In just six months in 2024, Trussell food banks in Wales distributed 83,000 emergency food parcels, which is almost as many parcels as the same food banks distributed in the whole year in 2015-16. It represents a 42 per cent increase compared to the same period five years previously. 

It's important to state that these figures convey just one part of the picture of need in Wales. There are many emergency food aid providers currently supporting people whose experiences are not captured here, and we know there are many people going without essentials who do not access support from anyone and are driven to the depths of despair. 

So, why are we in this position? The need for emergency food in Wales is driven by a lack of income, not because we lack access to food. People are having to turn to food banks because they don't have enough money for essentials. Some are between jobs, have health conditions, or are looking after relatives or children. Some people are in work that's insecure, inaccessible and doesn't pay enough to live on, and the lack of affordable housing, transport and childcare are further barriers holding too many people back from opportunities to increase their income.

Problems in the design and delivery of social security are the biggest and most immediate drivers of need for food banks in Wales. Benefit levels are too low, payments are reduced further still by deductions and caps, and people struggle to access the support for which they are eligible. It's clear that the social security system is failing to protect people from hunger and hardship, with many finding themselves without enough to live on, alongside battling the stress, uncertainty and indignity that often comes with navigating the social security system. Just one knock-back or unexpected cost can push people deeper into difficulty, creating conditions where people have become trapped in poverty. And whilst the UK Government are responsible for much of the social security system, there is plenty that Welsh Government are responsible for and should be delivering on. 

This year in Wales, we celebrate 10 years of the future generations Act, and, whilst there is much to be proud of in the aims of the Act, surely we must reflect on the fact that child poverty rates have continued to increase and that too many children are growing up in Wales today in families that can't afford the essentials. It's devastating to think that children are disproportionately supported by food banks and that 62 per cent of support provided by food banks in the Trussell community in Wales is for families with children. Unsurprisingly, families with three or more children are over-represented in the level of need for emergency food as a direct result of the cruel two-child benefit cap, a policy implemented by the Conservatives, but continued by Labour.

Over the last year, Trussell's data shows that over one in three emergency food parcels were for children and that one in 10 parcels were for under-fours. There are deep and lasting impacts of living without enough income to afford the essentials, particularly on how it worsens a person's mental and physical health. Only last week, Trussell published new research looking into the economic costs of severe hardship in Wales, both the devastating impact for the people facing it, and the economic and public finance costs of not acting to tackle poverty in Wales. Using a measure termed 'hunger and hardship', which captures people who currently need to use a food bank and those who are vulnerable to being unable to afford the essentials, Trussell found that public services and the Welsh economy could benefit by £3.6 billion each year if people were protected from hunger and hardship. 

This shows that the right thing to do to protect people from poverty is also common sense for our economy. After all, Wales's economy loses out on £1.9 billion in a single year due to reduced employment and lower productivity rates, as a direct result of the way hunger and hardship can harm people's chances of securing or sustaining employment. Further, the public purse loses out on £910 million in income from taxes in Wales due to these effects on employment rates, while an additional £260 million is spent on social security payments due to the impact of facing hunger and hardship on employment and wages. 

Appalling levels of hunger and hardship in Wales are also driving huge additional spending of £560 million on Welsh public services. Take, for instance, the NHS, where hunger and hardship in Wales leads to increased spending of £290 million on the NHS and other health services due to the physical and mental health impacts of experiencing severe hardship. Of the additional £290 million spent by Welsh Government on the NHS, £150 million is on hospital in-patient admissions, £60 million is on mental health services and £35 million on accident and emergency visits.

Trussell’s research also found that a failure to address hunger and hardship has a profound impact on education and child social care budgets too, leading to the Welsh Government having to spend an additional £120 million, let alone the educational and health outcomes for children living in poverty. As we know, also, people facing hunger and hardship often live in poor-quality and overcrowded homes, which can harm health and relationships. Unaffordable housing costs and the threat of eviction from landlords leave people facing hunger and hardship, as well as facing a significant risk of homelessness. As a result, Welsh Government spends an additional £143 million on homelessness and rough-sleeping services.

People living in a disabled family in Wales are already much more likely to face hunger and hardship than people in a non-disabled family, with 230,000 people who live in a disabled family in Wales facing hunger and hardship. The UK Government’s plans to cut support for disabled people are likely to drive even more into severe hardship, damaging their health and prospects even further. I hope today to hear from the Cabinet Secretary a condemnation of the proposals in her response, and that we can unite as a Senedd to call on the UK Government to urgently rethink cuts to support for disabled people, and also to update universal credit so that it protects people from hunger and hardship. 

Trussell, in partnership with the Joseph Rowntree Foundation, have also been calling for an essentials guarantee within universal credit, which means the basic rate at least covers life’s essentials and that support can never be pulled below that level. It's something we in Plaid Cymru have fully supported. Introducing an essentials guarantee within universal credit would ensure 138,000 fewer people in Wales would be at risk of hunger and hardship in 2027, and reduce costs to the economy, public services and public purse by nearly £1 billion. We need the UK Government to take bolder steps towards ensuring universal credit at least covers the cost of essentials, and we need the Welsh Government to campaign for this.

Removing the two-child limit would lead to a reduction in costs to the economy, public services and public purse of £260 million, and ensure 29,000 people in Wales are prevented from facing hunger and hardship. Extending free school meals to all families on universal credit would lift 27,000 people in Wales out of facing hunger and hardship and bring £140 million in cost benefits. Introducing an enhanced Scottish-style child payment in Wales, as we've proposed in Plaid Cymru, would lift 50,000 people at risk of hunger and hardship, and bring £605 million in cost benefits. If Governments both in Westminster and Cardiff Bay fail to act, any progress on living standards, employment, economic growth and the NHS is undermined, and we will see an increase in hunger, hardship and human misery.

I've become increasingly concerned since being elected in 2021 to see the narrative change over foodbanks, that we are not emphasising the need to campaign for the need of them, but normalising them more and more. I've heard the Cabinet Secretary mention baby banks, fuel banks. This is normalising poverty. Thank goodness they exist, but they shouldn't have to, and what I would like to see from the Government is a plan to eradicate poverty and eradicate the need for these banks, which are banks for essentials—essentials that people can't afford.

I mentioned history books at the beginning of my contribution today. I remember being in school, where we were taught about the Victorian ages and child poverty, and being horrified by those. But the stories I hear from constituents now are far worse than those I read in history books, and I’m ashamed to be living in Wales at this point in time, when there are constituents of mine who can’t afford the essentials. Thank goodness for the work of volunteers, for organisations like Trussell, but it should shame us all that they have to exist.

Poverty is not inevitable. There are political choices that can lead to change. We must do more to ensure that everyone living in Wales can afford the essentials, and take radical and urgent steps to end hunger and hardship.

Thank you to Heledd Fychan for bringing this important debate before us.

Responding to the recent welfare cuts announced by the Labour Government in Westminster, Oxfam Cymru said,

‘We live in the sixth richest country in the world, where billionaires alone saw their wealth soar by £11 billion just last year. It is morally repugnant that children, disabled people and carers are the ones who are taking the hit’.

As you said, Heledd, poverty is caused by political choices, and political choices will eradicate it. Many of the levers, as you pointed out, that could make a difference are in Westminster’s hands, in Labour’s hands. So, where is the outrage, the absolute moral outrage, we should be seeing at their inaction on this? And where is the action by Welsh Government, the new, bold action on child poverty steered by targets since the end of the co-operation agreement, which gave us free school meals? None. The Welsh Government have had 26 years to use the powers they have and to ask for the powers they need to change this. We need to see a partnership against poverty, to lift the powerless for the benefit of us all.

I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice, Trefnydd and Chief Whip to reply to the debate— Jane Hutt.

Diolch yn fawr, Dirpwy Lywydd. And diolch, Heledd Fychan, for this short debate. As you say, absolutely, poverty isn’t inevitable, and the poverty rates here in Wales clearly demonstrate the challenge we face as a direct consequence of the level of austerity. And I think we agree on that in terms of the last 14 years in terms of the Tory Government and what we were left with. But what’s important, as you rightly outlined, is what we can do, the Welsh Labour Government, using all our powers and levers to improve the lives of the people of Wales by both tackling the causes of poverty and mitigating the worst impacts of living in poverty. And we have had to make, and we make, political choices in order to do that.

So, between 2022 and 2026, we have invested over £7 billion in interventions to reduce costs and maximise the incomes of families and keep money in the pockets of Welsh citizens—key priorities of our child poverty strategy. And that’s not the whole picture. Here in Wales, the Welsh Labour Government funded free prescriptions and free travel for over-60s, kept and increased our educational maintenance allowance for students, we've given the real living wage to social care workers, and provided universal access to free period products. And these are only a few examples, but they are examples of political choices—they are the red Welsh way of this Welsh Labour Government.

And our child poverty strategy for Wales outlines our long-term ambitions and decisive actions to tackle child poverty in Wales. They’re actions that not only impact on children, but on the very foundations of the society that they depend on, on their families and their communities. And I’m sure we would want to share this point of recognition of the spirit of the Urdd peace and goodwill message, which will be shared tomorrow, because our strategy does embody that principle that it takes a village to raise a child. Creating pathways out of poverty is the main objective of our child poverty strategy. We have to create those pathways—they’re a vital component in allowing and enabling people to take advantage of the wealth generated through securing fair work.

Would you take an intervention? If that strategy had targets, do you think that you would've scrapped the universal roll-out of baby bundles that was in the programme for government?

Well, I'm very pleased that we've made £2.5 million available for the baby bundles programme for this financial year. It's something that I know you, Heledd, commented on. I think the baby bundles are something that we'd like to provide universally—we've started in a targeted way with every expectant family living in a core Flying Start area. It is an expression of support from our Government—from the Welsh Government—from the budget that we've put into this financial year. It's a baby bundle—it's a welcome to those young people.

Can I just carry on for a few more minutes, and then please come back? 

I have gone back to this point about the fact that we want to enable people to get into employment, and I do think that's crucial in terms of a route to tackling child poverty and poverty as a whole. But, I do want to just comment on our employability programmes, supporting over 15,000 adults who were out of work in 2023-24, including through our Communities for Work and employability mentors, our Working Wales careers advice service and our childcare offer. Tackling the barriers—we discussed this this morning. I was at the four-nations UK Government taskforce—it was a four-nations taskforce. We discussed the barriers, as well, in terms of being able to enter employment, providing 30 hours of Welsh Government-funded nursery education and childcare for three to four-year-olds, supporting more parents to increase their income by helping them into work and enabling working parents to work more hours.

But, I would mention more than once the fact that we have worked together formally in our co-operation agreement to expand our all-important Flying Start childcare for two-year-olds in Wales. That’s such an important way in which we have worked together, and we’ve got that now in our budget this year, bringing Wales a step closer to that universal provision of childcare for all two-year-olds.

Thank you for taking the intervention. I just want to clarify that I wasn’t mentioning the baby bundles. I was talking about baby banks, which, increasingly, more foodbanks are having to establish. I know the Taff-Ely foodbank had to establish one recently. They’re fundraising—doing a public crowdfunder—in order to be able to provide nappies.

Well, apologies—mae’n ddrwg gen i—I obviously misunderstood. We have made that clear about the baby bundles, and I know you’ve always welcomed that as a programme. I do want to say 'thank you' again to Heledd for drawing attention to the work of Trussell Trust and the fact that—. I applaud the work of Trussell Trust and all those who provide foodbanks and food pantries, and there are many schemes across Wales. I have always very much embraced the vision, as you have today, of a Wales where foodbanks are no longer needed. Our child poverty strategy does set out those long-term ambitions—how we will work across Government with partners to maximise the levers available to us. Of course, it does mean that we have to target our support to those most in need and continue our work to streamline and simplify Welsh benefits.

I do want to make one point about the Welsh benefits system. These are entitlements. I was very pleased to launch the Welsh benefits charter with Siân Gwenllian a year or so ago. It is accelerating the work that we are doing to ensure that people can simplify access to free school meals and the school essentials grant, as well as our £290 million council tax reduction scheme. We are seeing very positive work coming from the investment we have made into Policy in Practice, piloting the low-income family tracker, or LIFT, tool so that we can get this data for local authorities to find out who is eligible so that they can be targeted in terms of getting their entitlements. Our ‘Claim what's yours’ campaign and our single advice fund are all important in terms of people getting the entitlements. Interestingly, this week, and I am sure you will be aware of it, Heledd, in your region, the Cwm Taf health board had funded a very successful campaign for the uptake of pension credit and got £1.6 million as a result of people's entitlements being identified, working with Citizens Advice, Age Concern and Age Connects in the Cwm Taf health board, with all the local authorities taking part. That's getting money not just for those pensioners in terms of pension credit, but identifying attendance allowance, as well as entitlements, but also seeing health needs and getting £1.6 million into the pockets of those people and into their families.

There are many more areas where we have worked together to secure—and, most importantly, through our co-operation agreement—the fact that we are the first UK nation to offer free school meals to all primary learners. I was proud to say that this morning in our four-nations UK meeting. I was proud to talk about the way we've had free breakfast since 2005 in our primary schools, and the fact that we've got that universal offer for free school meals, alongside our school milk scheme and the free breakfast scheme, means that we have the most generous food-in-school offer in the UK. And that, hopefully, is helping to reduce the dependence of those families on foodbanks, and the fact that we have that school essentials grant, providing £125 per eligible learner for all year groups up to year 11, and £200 for eligible learners in year 7. That's enabling children in low-income families to attend school and take part in activities at the same level as their peers.

Finally, I wanted to say—. Well, you've noticed that, I'm sure, today, I announced some successful bids to the £1.5 million child poverty and supporting communities grant. That is enabling a whole range of partners across Wales, in the third sector, local authorities, to actually, again, take forward initiatives that they themselves know work in terms of tackling poverty in these communities, in the communities that they serve.

I think these interventions demonstrate just some of the ways that we as a Welsh Government are seeking to improve the lives of people here with the levers and powers that we've got, but we don't hold all the levers that can impact on poverty in Wales. We will continue to ensure that the voices of the people of Wales are heard. And, as the First Minister said in her speech—and I'm proud of that speech, and I'm proud of the red Welsh way—where we disagree, we will say so. And this morning, I met, as I said, with the UK Government child poverty taskforce. It was the four nations—I was there with my colleague from the Scottish Government, Shirley-Anne Somerville, and colleagues from Northern Ireland. Again, I pressed them on the two-child benefit, I pressed them on the benefit cap. I also pressed them on the local housing allowance, which is another key area, key benefit, in terms of tackling and meeting housing need. I also pressed on wider welfare reform and pressed on social tariffs, because energy debt is a real issue in terms of driving people into poverty. We had some very constructive discussions about data sharing, which is a huge barrier. Data sharing will help us move forward in terms of ensuring people get the entitlements that they're entitled to.

And tomorrow, I'm meeting with the disability equality forum, the disability rights taskforce, to, again, discuss with them the issues and concerns—and the First Minister acknowledged this on Tuesday—about not just the Green Paper, where there's consultation, but the impact of the changes on the personal independence payment. Because we want to state what that is anyway, as well as respond to the consultation, and tomorrow I'll be working, listening and working with disabled people directly to do this.

So, thank you for the debate, Heledd, and thank you for giving me the opportunity, again, to show our commitment. And, as we've said, we are putting pressure, we are raising these issues and, where they affect Wales, then we will speak up and we will stand up for Wales. Diolch yn fawr.

Thank you. That brings today's proceedings to a close.