Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru

Good afternoon and welcome to this afternoon's Plenary meeting. The first item this afternoon is questions to the Minister for Finance and Local Government, and the first question is from Altaf Hussein.

We work closely with our local authority procurement and catering colleagues, along with suppliers and producers, to embed foundational economy approaches in food procurement activity to increase the supply of sustainable, local food and to maximise opportunities for Welsh businesses to grow their share of the £85 million annual food spend.

Thank you, Minister. Wales's farmers already produce the most sustainable food, and more must be done to support them. Without Welsh farmers, we have no food. Ill-conceived sustainable farming policies do little to protect nature or tackle climate change—they're simply cutting farmers' livelihoods and, as a result, cutting sustainable food production. Welsh produce can sometimes be more costly from a strictly financial standpoint, but when you factor in the additional climate-related costs of food imports, there is no contest. Minister, do you agree that we must do everything we can to ensure that all public procurement in Wales favours Welsh produce and that, in order to do so, we have to ensure the future of Welsh farming by abandoning the sustainable farming scheme as currently drafted? Thank you.

Well, Llywydd, I'm not going to get into a policy discussion, which the Member is inviting me to do, but what I would say on that point—and I know that he will—is that he should be making his representations through the formal consultation process, which is ongoing at the moment.

But I really do want to address that important point about how we increase the procurement of Welsh food as part of our approach through the public sector. And there are some really exciting things going on at the moment, I think. So, one example would be the work under way with local authorities to trial a local multiplier tool, and that's really aiming to measure the returns to the economy of building social value into food procurement. And it applies a new lens model of local, economic, nutrition and social to food procurement and developing a Welsh food index to establish where the value is added to Welsh food. So, that's being led by, and developed in partnership with, local government.

But alongside that, our foundational economy officials have co-produced new food procurement guidance with local authorities, and that's called, 'Harnessing the Purchasing Power of the Public Plate: a Legal Guide to Embedding Sustainability into Food Procurement for a Healthier, Wealthier Wales'. And you can find that on the food procurement online resource, which is called, 'Buying Food Fit for the Future'. And use of that now is being stipulated by Welsh Government as part of our grant conditions for universal primary free school meals. So, I think there are some new and exciting innovations that we're introducing in this area.

Having reached the end of a three-year spending review period, we no longer have any allocated budgets beyond 2024-25, so this inevitably increases uncertainty. Yesterday, we held a debate about the need for increased flexibilities to futureproof the Welsh budget, and I was pleased to see the strong support for such measures across the Chamber. 

Thank you, Minister. Last year, the Welsh Government's budget failed to account for inflationary pressures that we had all along known about. This led to health boards facing deficits of hundreds of millions of pounds and a knee-jerk in-year budget. While I know that there is nothing the Welsh Government can do about inflationary pressures and global events, it can futureproof budgets to mitigate the damage, particularly against factors that we know about. Can you, therefore, reassure me, Minister, that we will not be in a similar position this year, where the Welsh Government is having to bring forward another surprise in-year budget to amend its previous budget's shortcomings?

So, there are a few things, I think, that I need to reflect on that, the first being that there was nothing knee-jerk about it, in the sense that we had started undertaking that work in the summer of last year. So, actually, we were addressing the pressures on the budget as a result of inflation relatively early on in the financial year. You'll remember, at that point, we had a £900 million pressure on the budget, and we took really tough decisions right across Government in order to be able to protect the NHS and to deal with that £900 million pressure. But, right at the end of the financial year—13 February—the UK Government provided us with our figures through the supplementary estimates, and that added £231 million of revenue to our budget for this financial year. So, clearly, that was problematic, in the sense that some of those tough decisions, in the end, we didn't need to undertake. And, of course, UK Government departments would have known their budgets for months now, whereas this comes right at the end of the financial year. And had it not been the case that I'd already planned to maximise the draw-down from the reserve, in line with the Chief Secretary to the Treasury's agreement that we could withdraw everything from the reserve this year, it would have been impossible for us to manage that year-end position. So, I think that part of this does speak to that debate we had on fiscal flexibilities yesterday.

But, in terms of looking ahead to the next year, we've recalibrated now our assessment following the supplementary estimates, and we understand our budget is now worth £1.2 billion less next year. But, of course, we've factored that into our budget for next year, and undertaken that exercise, so that we could protect local government, but also provide the NHS with £450 million additional. It does mean, again, that some tough decisions were taken, but it certainly enabled us, at the very start of the financial year, to factor in the impact of inflation, as we understand it to be.

Questions now from the party spokespeople. The Welsh Conservative spokesperson first of all, Sam Rowlands. 

Diolch, Llywydd. Minister, the most recent available Welsh Government data, for 2020-21, shows that local authorities in Wales have around 1,000 smallholdings that they own and lease out to tenant farmers. That accounts for around 1 per cent of land here in Wales. There are around 886 tenants on council smallholdings, with a number of tenants having multiple farms. The total revenue that councils take in from those smallholdings is over £4 million across Wales—really significant not just for those rural areas, but for those councils as well.

You'll know the sustainable farming scheme is causing huge worry amongst farmers and our rural communities, as the protests outside the Senedd show here today. So, given this, Minister, what assessment have you made of the sustainable farming scheme as to those council-owned farms and the tenants that run those?

I do admire the Member's efforts to bring a question relating to the sustainable farming scheme to the finance and local government questions this afternoon, but I do want to just remind colleagues that my responsibilities in relation to local government do relate to the constitutional, structural, financial and democratic responsibilities of local government, and I think that question would be best posed to the Minister for rural affairs, who I know has questions next this afternoon. But I do know that she has been particularly involved in discussions to explore what the right way forward for tenant farmers, in particular, is, bearing in mind their particular relationship with landlords, and any challenges that they might have in terms of a future scheme.

Well, thank you for the response, Minister. I'm a little disappointed, perhaps, at you not being willing to, perhaps, fully respond to the question. I appreciate your portfolio remit, but I suspect there may be areas in your portfolio that could address the question further.

So, with that in mind, those regulations that we talked about with the sustainable farming scheme will make the entry for young farmers in the industry even harder, and, in particular, council-owned farms. And, as the Minister for local government and finance, you will know that council-owned farms are one of the ways in which young farmers can get on the ladder to gain much-needed experience. During the last year for which data was available, around 21 entrants came in on that basis, and it's these young farmers who certainly will need that experience to feed our nation in the future. So, thinking with your hat as local government Minister, how do you expect councils to address this negative impact of the sustainable farming scheme and, in particular, the impact on young farmers on those council-owned farms?

I genuinely do want to be as helpful as I can to colleagues in my answers, but, as I set out, my responsibilities in relation to local government are constitutional, structural, democratic and financial. But I absolutely want to recognise the importance of council-run farms in terms of supporting people into farming in the first instance, and recognise the important role that they can play. But, nonetheless, this does sit in the portfolio of a different Minister, who would be better placed, I think, to give you the level of detail that you require.

Thank you, Minister. I'll look forward to, perhaps, a further response in the future, although, as you say, there is a financial responsibility in particular, and there may even be structural opportunities within the way some of this is set up as well, which I'm sure you'd be interested in looking at.

So, perhaps a more straightforward question, which certainly sits within your portfolio and I'm sure there's no argument about, is about the final local government settlement that you announced yesterday. I'd like to hear from you, Minister, what you think is the single biggest regret you might have as a result of the budget you produced yesterday.

I think the single biggest regret that I have, as a result of the budget that I published yesterday, was just the sheer quantum of funding that we have available to allocate. We know that there are still pressures right across public services in Wales—in the NHS, in local government—despite the best possible settlement that we've been able to offer them. We would prefer to see a UK Government that invests in public services, which will then provide us with some additional funding to allocate. Of course, they still have time. We've got the UK Government's spring statement on 6 March. It's the day after we vote on our final budget, but it does give the opportunity for the UK Government to provide additional funding for public services, and then the Welsh Government can reflect that in a supplementary budget in June. I wouldn't expect decisions to be waiting until June. I think that the Welsh Government could take some early decisions on support for public services, should that additional funding be forthcoming on 6 March.

The Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Peredur Owen Griffiths. 

Diolch, Llywydd. The up-and-coming UK Government budget promises to see yet more hardship for ordinary working people in Wales. After the catastrophic fallout from Trussonomics, which left an enormous black hole in the UK public finances, a fresh wave of Tory-driven austerity is now threatening a further painful squeeze on living standards. We cannot forget that living standards have already deteriorated to an unprecedented degree over the past decade and a half of Tory rule. One of the main anticipated measures is a cut to the basic rate of income tax. But, as the Resolution Foundation has rightly stated, since the personal allowance threshold is due to remain frozen until 2028 at the earliest, people earning below £38,000 per annum will experience a net loss in their gross earnings. In other words, the Tories, true to form, are planning giveaways to the rich, with the lowest earners expected to shoulder the costs. Meanwhile, public services continue to be starved of funding.

Of course, in Wales, we do have limited power at our disposal to mitigate the worst excesses, and I know the Government has been assessing their options with regard to Welsh rates of income tax in the current budget. But we do not have the ability to change the personal allowance threshold, unlike in Scotland. We are also beholden to the income tax thresholds, which are set by the UK Government without any input from Welsh Ministers. We have long argued that the Senedd's inability to set its own tax bands is a fundamental barrier to the progressive use of financial levers at its disposal, and the impact of fiscal drag on the freezing of the personal allowance threshold will only serve to limit their effectiveness even further. Do you agree that the UK Government's failure to uprate the personal allowance threshold in line with inflation is exacerbating income inequalities here in Wales, and that it underlines the case for the Senedd to acquire greater fiscal powers?

I'm very grateful for that question. I think there's a lot of speculation at the moment in terms of what the UK Government might do on 6 March. As colleagues will know, we have—I was going to say 'little to no', but it is genuinely 'no'—no advance knowledge from the UK Government in terms of what their plans are. And, actually, they don't engage us even in those areas where it has a direct and material impact on our budget. So, if you think about changes to stamp duty land tax in England, for example, that has a direct knock-on effect to our budget, and yet we don't even have those conversations with them. So, that is something that I hope would be improved in the future. It's something that we've tried to be open with. So, when we decide to make changes to our land transaction tax, we have conversations with the Treasury and share information with others, just to establish that relationship of trust, but it has to go both ways, I think. 

In terms of setting the rates and the bands and taking a different approach, we are looking carefully at the situation in Scotland to see what the changes might look like for us here in Wales. I don't think that we should commit to doing something different just for the sake of it. I think having a system similar to Scotland would bring additional risk to us in Wales, which I think we'd have to factor in as well, but it would also give us different choices too. So, Welsh rates of income tax are still new to us, relatively, they're still bedding in, and we're still seeing the benefits of them in terms of the reconciliations, which have been positive since we've had Welsh rates of income tax, but certainly it's something we need to explore for the future. I don't think that we're at the point yet of being able to make a judgment as to whether or not having those different powers would be best for us here in Wales.

Thank you very much for that response. Following the discussion that we had yesterday, it's very encouraging to hear that the Senedd is supportive of looking at different options.

Another alarming issue that has been raised by the Resolution Foundation's analysis is the extent to which the UK Government's planned tax cuts will need to be accommodated in part by reductions to the budgets of non-ring-fenced policy portfolios. Once again, given the inconsistencies of the devolution settlements across the UK nations, Wales will be disproportionately affected in this respect. For example, the foundation has estimated that the UK Government's justice budget may be facing a near 20 per cent cut, which should be seen within the wider context of the consistent under-funding of legal services and policing since 2010. As we discussed last week during the police settlement debate, Tory-driven austerity measures in the England and Wales justice system have also shifted an ever-increasing burden onto the budgets of Welsh Government and local authorities. This is in spite of the fact that the policy responsibility for delivering justice and policing does not currently sit in Wales.

Do you therefore agree that the non-devolved state of justice in Wales has meant that we've been fully exposed to the damage caused by Tory-driven austerity in this area? And do you agree with Plaid Cymru that, unless a future Labour Government commits to a substantial reversal of these cuts that have taken place over the past decade and a half, a failure to devolve justice will continue to leave the people of Wales short-changed?

I certainly think there are some interesting points that you make in that contribution relating to the impacts of those areas where we don't get consequential funding and so on. But I think the broader concern that I have in relation to the upcoming budget is that, from what we're hearing, and it is in the media and so on, it seems that what the UK Government will be planning over future years just doesn't have any credibility at all. The Institute for Fiscal Studies itself has said that if the Chancellor does decide to have tax cuts, unless he can set out exactly how he will pay for those tax cuts, then he will lack credibility and lack being able to say that there is any transparency. So, those are our concerns.

At the moment, I think that surveys tell us that people actually want to see investment in public services right now over tax cuts. That seems to be the priority, and that's a priority I think that we would share, bearing in mind the pressures on public services. I think the reductions that would be required to public services, if the UK Government follows the plans that we understand that they might follow, well, those cuts will be eye-watering, and that will have impacts for us here in Wales. It would really be a return to deep austerity. It didn't work the first time around, and it certainly won't work again after the resilience of so many organisations has been tested so strongly as a result of austerity. So, yes, I share lots of the concerns that you've raised.

I published guidance on effective public engagement for local authorities in June last year. This was produced following close working with local authorities.

Minister, we know that devolution to Wales doesn't stop at the Senedd and with Members of the Senedd, and our local authorities have a vital role to play in exercising their own local democratic mandate. Again, that pulling down of power doesn't stop with local authorities, it must very much reach our communities. I think it's absolutely vital that local authorities work in that bottom-up way, Minister, and I'm sure you would agree.

We know there's quite a lot of different practice in our local authorities, some of it reflecting local circumstances, but also there's much in common in terms of community need and the voice of our communities. So, I just wonder, Minister, what more you might do, perhaps through your chairing of the partnership council, to ensure that we do clearly identify good practice in our local authorities in Wales and make sure that that informs the work on the ground in all of our local councils.

I'm grateful for that question. The Local Government and Elections (Wales) Act 2021 made public participation—well, it brought public participation front and centre, if you like, in terms of making it a requirement on local authorities to have those strategies to encourage and enable public participation, and also those requirements for councils to have a petitions scheme as well. I think that both of those things are important in terms of ensuring better public participation in local democracy, and better opportunities then for local government to be able to listen to the views of their communities.

I think it's really important that we do share best practice. So, just last week, I hosted, alongside the Future Generations Commissioner for Wales, a day-long event for public services boards, which included lots of representatives from local government, and that was very much about sharing good practice, learning from one another, and I think that lots of people will be able to take a lot away from that day that they can use in their own practice that they've learnt from their peers across Wales. So, I think that creating those opportunities to share is also really important.

Minister, residents in Forge Mews in Newport have been left cut off from the rest of the city with no vehicular access since the old Bassaleg bridge closed more than two years ago. Following safety inspections, the bridge has been deemed unsafe and beyond repair, with officials deeming a new bridge would have to be built.

This is an awful situation and it has been going on for far too long, as residents have serious concerns about emergency services being able to access the site. Not only that, but residents are being forced to wheel their shopping from their cars, which are parked at a considerable distance away from their homes, in trolleys. It doesn't sound like empowering local communities to me, Minister.

I have lobbied Newport City Council to end this sorry saga urgently, and I've been told that the council have submitted a bid for funding to the Welsh Government for work. Ultimately, the power to end this nightmare for residents lies in the hands of this Government. For so many residents, it's imperative that the Welsh Government gives the funding request the green light, so that work can indeed begin. Time is certainly of the essence, Minister, so will this Government commit to providing the funding needed and work in tandem with Newport City Council to empower this community once again? Thank you.

I'm very grateful for the question. I presume that the funding scheme to which the Member refers is the one that sits in the responsibilities of the Minister for Climate Change and the Deputy Minister. So, I'd be certainly happy, after today's Plenary, to make sure that they're aware of your particular concerns and the correspondence that you've had with them and also with the council. 

Question 4 [OQ60738] is withdrawn. Question 5 is next—Heledd Fychan.

The Minister for Social Justice works with local authorities to support people facing destitution, including those with no recourse to public funds. In 2024-25, local authorities will receive £5.7 billion of funding through the local government settlement and this will help them to discharge their statutory responsibilities to provide information to those in need.

Thank you, Minister. A report was published recently by the Bevan Foundation that set out some of the grave challenges facing people living in Wales who don't have recourse to public funds. Many students and families in my own area are in this position, and I've heard some heartbreaking stories through local foodbanks, such as families paying £1,200 a week in rent, children with blisters on their feet because their shoes are full of holes, and headteachers reporting concerns about the nutrition of some of their pupils.

As the report said, it's about time that local authorities establish these local no recourse to public funds pathways, and this isn't happening anywhere in Wales at the moment, despite Welsh Government guidance directing them to do this in 2022. So, my question is: have you had any discussions with the relevant Minister to ensure that funding isn't the barrier to this, so that we can understand why this isn't being implemented? So, I want to know whether you've had such discussions, and if you haven't, whether you will have those discussions to understand the challenges and how we can ensure that the funding does reach these people.

So, it hasn't been suggested to me that funding is the issue in this case. I'm aware of the Bevan Foundation report, and I know that the Minister's officials will be looking at what actions can be undertaken to help those who have no recourse to public funds in Wales, and you've set out, I think, some awful circumstances that people are finding themselves in. I do know that we are taking action already against many of the recommendations in the report, but we will also, of course, understand whether or not we need to take further action to respond to the points that have been raised in the report.

A review of the no recourse to public funds guidance will also be undertaken this year, and that will reflect upon changes in immigration policies and case law, to help bolster our understanding and that of local authorities on their obligations under the 2014 Act. But I'm very happy to have some further conversations with the Minister, just to ensure that funding is not the key problem in this circumstance.

Minister, local authorities play a key role in helping to support people onto pathways out of destitution and, as you will be aware, this is particularly important for those with no recourse to public funds, as my colleague Heledd outlined. I've been contacted by constituents who volunteer with foodbanks, who are concerned that there is an increasing number of foreign students and their families needing help feeding themselves, because they have found that the resources that they had available no longer stretch as far as they once did, and they now face substantial financial challenges. They are also concerned that local authorities in Wales do not have a coherent or effective response to NRPF, meaning that those who desperately need help face a postcode lottery as to whether they will receive assistance. Minister, what steps are you taking to improve the consistency of approach among local authorities in Wales when dealing with people who have no recourse to public funds? Thank you.

I'm very grateful for those questions, and I know that the education Minister is also particularly aware of the issue in terms of international students who might be reluctant to access university financial support, such as hardship funds, because of restrictions that they have around their visas and the condition that they must be able to support themselves. We would encourage students in those circumstances to have those discussions with their university, to explore whether there is support available to them. We provide universities in Wales with funding for financial hardship and to support students with their mental health, so I would encourage students in those difficult circumstances to be raising that. But I know it is something that the education Minister is particularly alive to, as is the Minister for Social Justice.

Janet Finch-Saunders.

Diolch, Llywydd. What—? Oh, it says Jenny Rathbone.

You are absolutely correct, Janet Finch-Saunders, and I am totally wrong, and I apologise to you. It is Jenny Rathbone's question, No. 6, and I'll call you for a supplementary, Janet. I'm sorry.

Thank you.

The Welsh Government has made significant progress on working with local government to identify the areas of unnecessary bureaucracy and to develop ways to reduce them. The budget I published yesterday reflects progress made on the dehypothecation and consolidation of grants.

That's welcome news, Minister. It's 10 years since the Williams commission warned that radical change is needed for public services to survive in a viable and sustainable form. And in next year's budget strategy document, you make prominent reference to improving inefficiencies and eliminating waste. Audit Wales advises that local authorities need to focus on how they're going to respond to future pressures and meet projected funding gaps. Given that austerity is likely to survive well into the next Government, after 10 years of an economically illiterate set of Governments, what is the Welsh Government strategy for engaging local authorities in the really urgent business of investing to save and reducing unnecessary spend?

Well, I think the work of Audit Wales and also the work of Wales Fiscal Analysis has been really important in terms of helping local authorities understand the current pressures, but then also get as good a picture as they can as to the level of pressure that they're likely to face in the year ahead. Investing to save is absolutely critical to that, and we have a range of ways in which we're supporting local authorities to do that.

One particularly important area, of course, is preventing young people from coming into care. We've got a wide range of work going on in that space, but as part of our work through the invest-to-save fund we've pivoted that fund almost entirely towards supporting organisations—particularly local authorities, but through the third sector as well—to prevent young people from coming into care, but then also to support those young people who are in care to make sure that they have the best possible opportunities moving forward. I think that is absolutely an invest-to-save kind of approach, as is the universal basic income, because there are some of the most vulnerable people in Wales, and the more we can invest in them at this early point in their lives, I think the better the outcomes will be for them, but then also thinking about that invest-to-save angle as well, if you like. 

We also have good work going on through the regional partnership boards and the regional integration fund. Investment of £146 million in that fund is working to build community capacity, helping people access information, advice and support locally in their own community, and helping people and families with more complex needs to get that support that they need closer to home. 

And then, on the capital side of things, we've got our climate strategy panel's work, and following recommendations from that we've introduced a low-carbon heat grant for local authorities. Every year from 2023-24 to 2025-26, £20 million will be made available for capital works, and that's about retrofitting low-carbon heat solutions in non-domestic local authority-owned buildings—again, an invest-to-save kind of proposition—to reduce cost and carbon emissions for the long term.  

We know that local government spending since 2013-14 has gone down by around 7 per cent. Over the past 10 years, we've seen three costly local authority reorganisation plans that were unsustainable and not taken forward. And of course, now we've got the corporate joint committees. Years ago, it was suggested that, rather than wholescale local government reorganisation, a lot of savings could be made in terms of having a north Wales payroll department, and taking things on a bigger scale but still keeping local authorities close to the communities they serve. Has any action been taken on local authorities working more in partnership with neighbouring authorities, and maybe on a regional basis, or has that just not gone forward at all? Thanks. 

I think there are some really good examples of local authorities undertaking joint procurement and joint commissioning of services. Those happen right across Wales, from things such as social services to waste collection, and so on. So, there are really good examples of that. I think one of the positive things is that that's happening quite organically—so, local government recognising the pressures they're facing and looking for opportunities to collaborate with their neighbouring authorities and other authorities as well. So, there's definitely good work going on, but obviously lots more opportunity to make improvements in that space as well. 

The CJCs are really important vehicles in terms of strategic transport, planning and also developing the regional economies. They are relatively new, but they are now starting to coalesce around those important agendas and work together. Of course, the legislation as we have it means that authorities, if they choose, can look to merge with neighbouring authorities if that's something that they think would be beneficial to them, and of course, officials would be happy to provide any information and advice about that, if it's something authorities think would be beneficial. 

Question 7 [OQ60735] is withdrawn.

For 2024-25, the Government is providing unhypothecated revenue funding of over £5.72 billion and over £1 billion in specific grant funding to support local authorities in delivering statutory and non-statutory services. It is for local authorities to determine their budget and their service priorities. 

Thank you, Minister, for that answer. Labour-run Bridgend council have announced plans to cut their education budget. According to their medium-term financial strategy, the budget will be reduced by 3 per cent next year as part of a 7 per cent provisional total. When looking at the risks of this policy they've identified 19 potential impacts as a result of the decision. They range from potential redundancies and staffing loss to an increase in pupil exclusions. None of the potential impacts are positive in any way, and only allude to a darker future for education in Bridgend. At a time when Wales's young people are suffering the worst education results in the entire United Kingdom, this decision will only make things worse for learners in Bridgend. It's vital that those in our education system receive the best possible opportunities and the best possible outcomes. But that's made impossible if Bridgend Labour council's cut to education spending goes ahead. Can I ask, therefore, what discussions you're having with the Minister for education about ensuring that local authorities protect spending on education in their budgets so that we can turn around this disastrous trajectory of Wales's PISA outcomes under this Welsh Labour Government?

I just want to be clear that the tough choices aren't unique to Bridgend council. Every single local authority is facing tough choices as a result of the situation we're facing in Wales in terms of not having enough money to do all of the things that we want to do. I think that the example you provide is a good one in the sense that no councillor comes into politics to want to be making these kinds of tough decisions about areas where they’ll have to apply cuts to services. I think the best thing that we can do is continue to lobby for a good outcome on 6 March from the UK Government in terms of investing in public services, and any support that the Member can give to us on that would be very welcome.

I have regular discussions with the Minister for Climate Change about supporting local government in the transition to net zero. This is a collective challenge across the Welsh Government and local authorities.

Thank you for your response. 

The Welsh Local Government Association receives Welsh Government funding to deliver a decarbonisation support programme helping local authorities in developing climate action plans. Yet many climate action plans currently fall short. Climate Emergency UK's 2021 scorecard exercise showed that, in Welsh local authorities, climate action plans received an average score of only 31 per cent, well below the UK national average of 50 per cent. A key issue is co-ordinating approach amongst local authorities. The Race to Zero campaign could provide this missing framework. With internationally recognised standards and a collaborative approach, it aims to strengthen partnerships, clarify responsibilities and build public support for rapid and fair emission cuts. With the climate change Minister's backing and half of Wales's 22 authorities currently signed up, widespread participation could align climate efforts. So I wonder if you would commit to working with the Minister for Climate Change, the WLGA and Race to Zero Cymru to implement such a framework and strengthen climate action plans for all our local authorities. Diolch yn fawr iawn. 

Thank you very much for the question. I know that the Minister for Climate Change has had an opportunity at the partnership council for Wales, which I chair, to talk about the Race to Zero model and to encourage local authorities to explore that if they haven’t already. We do know that there are some authorities using different models, and they are making progress with those models. I think one of the things that made us reluctant to specify and stipulate a model was that it might potentially move authorities off the track of good work that they’re undertaking, and take their focus off the progress that is being made. But I know that the Minister for Climate Change has been promoting the Race to Zero model particularly strongly amongst local authorities. As you say, many are using it, but there are other models that we do think can also be effective. 

The benefits of investing in the 20 mph speed limit are clear. For an estimated one-off cost of around £32 million, we anticipate casualty prevention savings of up to £92 million every year, plus additional health benefits of people walking and cycling more.

Thank you very much, Minister. As I'm sure you're aware, and I'm sure everyone else around here is, the roll-out of the 20 mph speed limit has cost the Welsh taxpayer £32.5 million. This is happening at a time when—as we all continue to see, and are reminded—budgets were and still are extremely tight. So, I just thought that we could take a look at where else this money could have gone in relation to the Welsh public, had it been invested elsewhere. 

The average general practitioner salary, Minister, in Wales for this financial year 2023-24 according to the British Medical Association is £89,993.50. Therefore, £32.5 million could have paid for an extra 361 full-time GPs for a year—a significant statistic, especially when considering that the 'Save our Surgeries' report for 2023 noted that there were just 2,324 GPs in Wales, with only 1,445 working full time. It's also crucial to consider that the recommended number of patients per GP per day is 25. Therefore, these extra 361 GPs across Wales would have been able to see an extra 1.9 million patients in just one year. I'm sure this hugely significant increase would have drastically decreased the 9,000 patients currently on waiting lists to see a GP in Wales as of November 2023. This is exactly what we, as Welsh Conservatives on these benches, mean when we say that we would invest in our Welsh NHS instead of your Government's blanket 20 mph policy.

So, Minister, with all of this in mind, do you stand by your budgetary allocation of £32.5 million on this policy, which has so far decreased speeds by an average of just 4 mph?

As a result of the policy, doctors will be seeing between 1,200 and 2,000 fewer people every year, because that will be the amount of people who are avoiding injury due to collisions. We do know that the benefit to the NHS will be £92 million a year. We can all play the game of working out what £32 million could have bought the NHS, for example, but I'd be interested to know how much we could have got if we looked at, for example, the useless personal protective equipment that the UK Government bought during the pandemic. What could that have done for the NHS here in Wales and elsewhere? Overall, the 20 mph policy will be beneficial to the NHS to the tune of £92 million every year.  

Each local authority has the freedom to set its own council tax and is accountable to the local electorate for the decision it makes. 

Minister, you'll be aware of Pembrokeshire County Council's plans to increase council tax by anywhere between 16 per cent and 21 per cent, a move that has been made possible by this Welsh Government. This will have an enormous impact on local residents, who are already receiving fewer and fewer services from the local authority. Minister, what action is the Welsh Government taking to stand up for council tax payers in Pembrokeshire and ensure that there is some fairness in the system? What message are you sending to Labour councillors, who are one of the parties proposing these tax increases—the highest ever percentage rise seen in council tax here in Wales?

I think one of the challenges that local authorities face is when you have had extended periods of very low council tax increases. Eventually something does have to give. I think that we potentially are seeing that in some areas. But, of course, this is a matter for local government. I've written to local government setting out the final settlement details and I have said to them that the Welsh Government doesn't intend to use its powers to cap council tax, because it is very much a matter for local government. We would love to be in a position to provide local government across Wales with greater levels of funding and we do call on the UK Government to use the spring statement on 6 March to provide additional funding for public services, which we can then consider how best to prioritise here in Wales.

Finally, question 12, Alun Davies. 

I'm grateful to you, Presiding Officer, and Minister, for keeping me on my toes this afternoon.

I recently wrote to the Chancellor, reiterating the need for a principles-based approach to the UK fiscal framework, as set out in 'Reforming our Union', which includes replacing the Barnett formula. I continue to raise the immediate challenges of the existing fiscal arrangements in regular meetings with the Chief Secretary to the Treasury.

I'm grateful to the Minister for that reply, and grateful also for the way in which she brought all sides of the Chamber together yesterday for a debate on the financial framework. At its heart, of course, Barnett remains a population-based formula, and that does not meet Wales's needs. It never has done. It wasn't meant to, in fact, and it never will do so.

Now, we've seen changes, of course. Since the signing of the agreement in Northern Ireland, which I'm sure we all welcome, we've seen the United Kingdom Government accept that it is possible to find different ways of funding the different parts of the United Kingdom, and doing so fairly. Would the Minister agree with me that, as we look towards a change of Government in the United Kingdom in the coming months, what we need to do is to look towards unity across the different parts of the UK to ensure that we have a new funding formula that is needs based and that, at its heart, has the objective of eliminating inequality, not simply in Wales, but in Scotland, England and Northern Ireland as well?

Yes, I would certainly support that call, and also, to echo an important point that Mike Hedges made yesterday, that there should be independent arbitration of that, and a clearly set out appeals process, to ensure that fairness that we want to see embedded in future. It is interesting that the UK Government has taken the approach to North Ireland. It does use some of the work that informed our approach here in Wales, in terms of the work that Holtham did. So, it is a step, in the sense that they actually recognise that that kind of approach is valid.

One of the dangers, I think, in terms of the agreement with Northern Ireland, apart from the fact they this is the third agreement that they have made outside of the funding framework that we have in the UK to Northern Ireland, is that part of the requirement that the UK Government is making is that Northern Ireland has to raise a certain amount locally. So, essentially, the UK Government is telling Northern Ireland how it must use its tax-raising powers. I think that that is really concerning to us, because how Governments go about raising money is entirely for the Government, in consultation, and to be ratified by the Parliament. So, that, I think, is a disturbing new element of this conversation.

I thank the Minister.

The next set of questions, therefore, will be questions to the Minister for Rural Affairs and North Wales, and the first question is from Jenny Rathbone.

Fruit and vegetables are traded across the UK in a common food system. Comparison of local consumption and production is not meaningful because it does not account for how products are produced, traded or consumed. However, a best estimate is that about 6 per cent to 7 per cent of Welsh consumption is met by production here.

Six per cent to 7 per cent? Okay. Thank you. Well, I read recently that the Food Foundation's latest food insecurity tracker reveals that 15 per cent of households are experiencing food insecurity. That's one in six or seven households. Over half of them said that they were cutting back on buying fruit, and nearly half bought fewer vegetables. So, there is a serious misalignment between a healthy, balanced diet that they need, and what is available locally, at a price they can afford. So, how many grants or loans for horticulture have been provided in the last 12 months, and what was the outcome to date in increasing what you guess, at the moment, is between 6 per cent and 7 per cent of locally produced fruit and veg?

Thank you. Well, we have two major schemes to support horticulture over the past year, and we've had contracts worth over £50,000 already awarded. We opened and closed a window; I think the window closed on 12 January. So, those expressions of interest are being appraised by officials at the moment, and I think they're worth around a further £129,000. I mentioned the two rounds. So, we have had one window open back in December 2022, and closed on 17 March 2023. That was £37,000-worth of contracts. I just referred to the latest window as well.

I think you'll be very aware, Jenny Rathbone, because you've questioned me many times around this, that I want to do all I can to support the sector here in Wales, to ensure that we do produce more vegetables and fruit going forward. I really think we've supported the agri-food industry strongly, as you know, but we have provided specific support to fruit and vegetable growers, particularly through Farming Connect, with a specific horticultural programme there, as well as through other horticultural capital grant schemes. 

Year-round access to out-of-season fresh fruit and vegetables has increased in the last 20 to 30 years, leading to longer and more complex supply chains. Ninety-three per cent of domestic consumption of fresh vegetables is fulfilled by domestic and European production, while fruit supply is more widely spread across the EU, Africa, the Americas and the UK. The UK, though, produces over 50 per cent of vegetables consumed domestically, but only 16 per cent of fruit. Welsh farmers could make an invaluable contribution to the horticultural sector, but the impact the sustainable farming scheme will have is unknown. According to the report entitled 'Potential economic effects of the Sustainable Farming Scheme: Phase 4 Universal Actions Modelling Results', the modelling

'excludes certain specialist farm types (e.g. pig, poultry, horticulture) as well as a large number of very small farms.'

Will you clarify why the impact of the SFS on the horticultural sector in Wales has not been modelled? Diolch.

The economic assessment to which Janet Finch-Saunders refers to—that piece of work was published alongside the current sustainable farming consultation. It was a very important piece of work, which helped inform the consultation, but I want to reiterate that it is not an assessment of the current consultation. A further piece of work, obviously, will be done, to be published alongside the final scheme, when we will then ask, obviously, farmers if they wish to be part of the scheme. I think the decision taken to publish the information alongside the consultation was very important to identify any potential risks of the scheme. So, a further piece of work will be done and that will be included.

We have published an economic assessment that is an important piece of work that helped inform our consultation so any issues could be addressed. It is not an assessment of the current consultation. The published economic assessment included estimated results for full-time farms in north-east Wales, including Denbighshire.

Thank you very much for that response, Minister. I'm aware that you've tried to allay farmers' concerns over the weekend by saying that changes will be made, but I'm afraid that farmers will need something far more substantive than this to be reassured. NFU Cymru have said exactly this point, and I'm sure that you can tell the strength of feeling by the protests outside this Senedd today. 

Modelling on the potential impacts of the scheme predicts a 10.8 per cent reduction in Welsh livestock numbers, a loss of 5,500 jobs and more than £125 million swiped from the economic output of the agricultural sector. The models therefore forecast a hammer blow to the agricultural industry. Farmers do not believe that this proposed scheme will achieve its intended environmental goals either, which will come at a huge cost to the agricultural sector. Rural communities are built on delicate, interconnected familial relationships that rely upon a foundation of wisdom and tradition. Once these communities have been destroyed, they cannot be rebuilt. Farmers in my constituency are terrified that, aside from the hit to the food production on the economy, the proud Welsh farming tradition and identity is in peril.

The Minister quoted Dylan Thomas last week, and I recommend that the Minister reads and reflects on Dylan Thomas's Fern Hill poem, which beautifully encapsulates that very precious farming tradition and how much it means to Wales. I'd appreciate it if the Minister could take account of the dire modelling for this policy, and outline what further changes she intends to make to the sustainable farming policy to address the concerns of the rural communities in Denbighshire. Thank you.

Thank you. Well, I didn't just, over the weekend, say that there would be changes, I've said all along—this is a very meaningful consultation. And I cannot answer the last part of your question, because I cannot pre-empt the consultation. I don't know what responses there will be to the consultation. If I tried to pre-empt the consultation now, I would be taken to court, because you cannot do that, as a Minister, you cannot pre-empt any consultation—[Interruption.] Sorry?

Why—[Inaudible.]

Hold on. You've asked your question, Gareth Davies. Allow the Minister to respond, please.

What we will need to do is make sure that every consultation response is read, and I have committed to that. Every piece of information—. So, currently, I'm getting lots of e-mails just with the views of farmers and they're asking, 'Can this be part of the consultation?', and I've said 'yes'. If people don't want to put in formally—I would prefer them to put in formally—but every piece of evidence or suggestion that we're having, we're feeding in. You'll be very well aware of the roadshows that we've had and all that information will go in.

I think one of the things you referred to was the economic analysis, and as I said in an earlier answer to Janet Finch-Saunders, that was done at the beginning of the consultation being published. There will be a further economic analysis. One of the things that I think we did pick up from that economic analysis is that we need to look at the social value of our agricultural sector. Now, that is a very complex piece of work to do, but I think it's a very important piece of work to do.

Questions now from the party spokespeople. Welsh Conservatives spokesperson, Samuel Kurtz.

Diolch, Llywydd. Good afternoon, Minister. I'm sure it's going to be, for you, like me, quite a busy day today. Just taking note of the statement that you and the First Minister released yesterday, I've read through it and it breaks it down following the meeting that you had with organisers of the protest or the meeting in Carmarthen mart, and I thank you for taking the time to meet with them. The three points that they talk about are bovine tuberculosis, nitrate vulnerable zones and the sustainable farming scheme. Just on the bovine TB part of the statement that you released, you note that

'We are committed to exploring other approaches to on-farm slaughter.'

Thank you. Thank you very much, because we've been asking for this for a long time. I've asked around the slaughter of in-calf cows and heifers, and, more generally, this is a really positive point forward. But, moving on, you mentioned

'We are today appointing a Bovine TB Technical Advisory Group'.

Can I ask who you've appointed to that group so far?

Just to say, the statement came out yesterday from both myself and the First Minister on the back of the meeting that you've referred to with the organisers, but also on the feedback from the two presidents of NFU Cymru and the Farmers Union of Wales last week, alongside all the other feedback that I'd received from my own officials on the Welsh Government roadshows.

Around on-farm slaughter in relation to TB, you'll be very well aware I announced that I would be setting up a technical advisory group, I said who would be chairing it, that Glyn Hewinson was going to be chairing it, and we needed to look for members to sit on that group. Yesterday I wrote to the people to ask them if they would be prepared. I'm not in a position, at the moment, to say who the members are, because I'm waiting for them to respond to the letter. We were trying to do it as quickly as possible. I didn't think I would be able to do it before next week, but in light of trying to take some heat out of the situation, I think it's fair to say, and to be positive and to show that we were listening, we did it yesterday, but, unfortunately, I'm not able to give you the names. But as soon as I can, I'll be very happy to do so.

Thank you, Minister, I appreciate that. The TB advisory group that you mentioned was a statement back in July 2022—we're now in February 2024. Some would find it slightly cynical that, on the day before a protest, you send out these invitations for people to join—no interview. One of the e-mails, I've had sight of them, was sent to them saying that they've been accepted at nearly 8 p.m. yesterday evening. The night before a protest. I think that can be seen as slightly cynical.

Moving on to the Water Resources (Control of Agricultural Pollution) (Wales) Regulations 2021—you know I and everybody else like to call them NVZs; you don't like that we call them NVZs—I'm just wanting to draw your attention to the paragraph that starts:

'We are making £20m of additional funding available to help farmers comply with the requirements'.

Can I ask in what grant budget is that money going to sit?

Some of that funding has already been spent. I think it's around £3.4 million, if I can remember off the top of my head. It will sit in the rural investment scheme.

Thank you. I asked that, because that money was first announced back in October 2022, so there's a theme running here, isn't there, that something is announced by this Government with regard to agriculture, yet it takes a big protest and the strength of feeling in the rural communities and farming for things to actually get done. So, these aren't new things. This is an announcement re-announcing things that have been previously announced. I think, again, it's slightly cynical to think that that would defuse and lower the temperature, which I want to do in this situation.

Now, the final point of the statement was around the sustainable farming scheme. You mentioned, and I'll read the paragraph:

'We welcome the responses to the consultation.'

Tick. Yes, I want every farmer to be able to respond to this consultation fully and their responses to be taken into consideration.

'Every consultation response received',

I quote,

'including the issues raised and discussed at the 10 roadshow events during the consultation period, will be analysed and properly considered.'

Now, that directly contradicts what you wrote to me in a written question when I asked:

'Will the Minister set out how the feedback from the Welsh Government's Sustainable Farming Scheme Roadshows is being captured'?

'The Roadshows',

you say,

'are not a formal information gathering exercise'.

A contradiction there in saying they're not a formal information-gathering exercise to the statement saying

'the 10 roadshow events during the consultation period'

will be discussed.

Now, this is the contradiction that I see here: that it has to take something so drastic as farmers coming down to Cardiff, for farmers to take to the road. And I mentioned this yesterday in my FMQ: I don't condone any of the intimidatory action that's been seen by some individuals in this debate; I think it's become too heated in some circles. But do you understand the strength of feeling here, when the DPJ Foundation has seen a 72 per cent increase in referrals in February 2024, a 62 per cent increase in referrals in the last three months, and a 28 per cent increase in the last six months? Do you fully appreciate and understand how the policies from this Welsh Government being directly implemented have constituted increases in referrals to a mental health charity that this Welsh Government then goes and supports? I would say—

I think you need to come to a question now. I've been very generous.

Thank you very much. I would say that that is cynical and hypocritical, that a Government is willing to inflict this pain on farmers—

You are going to have to come to your question, Samuel Kurtz, you know that.

—while still pursuing policies such as this. Thank you for your patience, Llywydd.

Nowhere in that statement did anything say it was new money. It didn't say that. I never said it was new money. In the statement, that £20 million—[Interruption.] It was just referred to; it didn't say it was additional money, it didn't say it was new money. I was very transparent about that. I didn't say either of those things, so to imply that is unfair, I think.

I mentioned that, the TB technical advisory group, we hadn’t planned to do that until next week. I asked the chief veterinary officer, the public appointments section of Welsh Government, to bring it forward as quickly as possible. If it could have been last week, you probably wouldn’t have said anything about it, but the fact that it was yesterday—. I could have left it, but I didn’t want to leave it; I wanted to do it as quickly as possible, because, as we know, that is a point that is causing a lot of distress.

And you also know that we did have a pilot on trying to look at what we could do to help in this area, and there wasn’t a great uptake. So, what we've been doing is preparing—. The CVO calls it a dossier: we’ve got a pile of information that we will give to the group. They will look at it. As soon as it's set up, the group will have a look at that information to bring forward advice to the Minister as quickly as possible.

I just mentioned, in my earlier answer to you, that—. You’re using the word ‘formal’ in a way that I perhaps am not. I’ve had all that feedback. I’ve had all the feedback from NFU Cymru and the Farmers Union of Wales; there’ll be more. I’ve even had individual farmers just sending me a paragraph, mainly to my MS e-mail address, because that’s the one that’s available. I’m not going back and saying, ‘This isn’t to my ministerial e-mail’—I’m taking that and passing it on to officials, because I really think it’s important that we look at every piece of information.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Llyr Gruffydd.

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Llywydd. Minister, you've been reminding many people in some of the interviews that you've been doing this week that you've been deliberating the common agricultural policy replacement scheme for seven years now. Yet here we are, 12 months away from when it's supposed to be implemented, and it feels further away than ever from a scheme that is going to work for farmers and is going to work for the environment as well. And the throngs of people on the steps of the Senedd today, I think, is testimony to that.

Now, we, as a party, have been telling you for a long time that the 10 per cent tree cover proposal just doesn't work. The farming unions have been telling you this for two years. You've had previous consultations that I think have sent you a clear message on that particular front, and there was a resounding message conveyed to you by farming unions at the Royal Welsh last year, but still, here we are, with the latest iteration of this consultation, and the proposal for a 10 per cent tree cover is still there. So, do you really blame people for thinking that you're just not listening?

Well, I hope we have shown that we are listening, if you look back at the two previous consultations, the two periods of intense co-design we've had with 1,600 individual farmers and now the final consultation. You're just picking on one point, and obviously this is one proposal within the scheme. And you know from discussions that we've had that I will not pre-empt and everything is being looked at. And I want to say that there are no proposals in the scheme that will be not looked at, nothing is set in stone, and the 10 per cent of trees is one of them.

Clearly, we have to listen to lots of people, don't we? We have to listen to our farmers, we have to listen to our environmental non-governmental organisations, we have to listen to many voices around the scheme to make sure that it does do what we need the agricultural sector and other parts of the sector to do. I just really would encourage people to put their views forward. I know the 10 per cent of trees is very difficult, but it is a consultation, and that's what consultations do: they get people's views on it. And I don't expect to see a huge amount of change in people's views on the 10 per cent of trees, but what I do hope to see is solutions and answers to the questions about how we make sure we fulfil our climate change obligations, and, obviously, trees as part of that. You yourself, I'm sure, would agree with that; your ambition for net zero is more ambitious than ours. So, where do you plant those hectares of trees that are needed? And I'm sure you will agree with me that our farmers can help us.

Well, there's no question that farmers can help, but forcing people to do something that undermines their own business and their own participation in the scheme isn't going to work. You've got to take these farmers with you on this journey; it's as simple as that.

Now, you could show that you are listening—graphically demonstrate that you are listening—without prejudicing the consultation process. You can carry on with the consultation process, but you could tell us, here today, now, you could make a statement, that, when the consultation closes, you will pause the process in order to review the proposals. You could give yourself and any potential successors, and, certainly, potential next First Minister, that time, that space, to reflect and to take stock. You've always said that it's going to be a huge challenge to get this implemented by 2025. Frankly, I think now, where we are, in terms of taking people with you, I can't see that happening. This is an opportunity for you to say, 'Okay, this is about getting it right.' And if you're serious about getting it right, then telling people now, 'We will implement in 2026, we will pause, we will take stock, and we'll look at the options going from there'—. Because it has to be right: it has to be right for farmers, it has to be right for the environment, it has to be right for the climate. Because, without farmers participating in this scheme, then you'll have nobody to deliver the outcomes that many of us do share. And, of course, under those circumstances, everybody loses.

So, I want to clarify: we're not forcing anybody to do anything. I think that's a really important point. And you're quite right, the scheme, absolutely, has to be right. I've made that abundantly clear. It needs to be right for every farmer in every part of Wales. And I think officials are working very hard, they've worked very hard through all the consultations, to make sure that is absolutely the case. 

The consultation has eight days to go. So, on 7 March, the consultation will finish. There will be a huge amount of information for officials to look at. As you've pointed out, there will be a new First Minister, a new Government, coming in around 20, 21 March. There will, obviously, have to be—. When you say—. I'm not quite sure what you mean by 'pause', but, obviously, there will be a stop to the information coming in, and then that information will have to be looked at very carefully. 

I absolutely agree with what you say, that if we don't have a really good take-up of the scheme—. Now, let's remember, not every farmer is part of the basic payment scheme. I'm often asked, 'How many people do you want to be in this scheme?', and what I've said to officials is, 'We've got 16,000 in BPS; I would want to see at least that, but hopefully more.' I want every farmer, if they feel, if they look at the scheme and they think, 'This is good for my farm business', I would want them to be part of that scheme. But, as you say, we have lots of voices we have to listen to. There are lots of people that this scheme needs to work to. Not everybody can have everything they want. When you're making policy, you have to make sure that everything is encompassed in that. 

Officials are working in partnership with colleagues in other Governments to consider future changes in relation to microchipping databases for both cats and dogs, including accessibility and a single point of entry. Our animal welfare plan makes a commitment to consider extending compulsory microchipping to include cats by 2026.

Thank you for the answer, Minister. The RSPCA, Cats Protection and others are keen to see the compulsory microchipping of cats in Wales, as it would significantly increase the chance of pets being returned to their owners if lost or stolen. I understand the Welsh Government was reluctant to pursue this, as there are 21 authorised databases in the UK, which makes it really difficult to trace some microchips, and which means that current regulations relevant to dogs are not fit for purpose. So, I'm pleased to see that you are looking into it in the future. And I'm hoping that legislation would put in place a universal microchipping database, managed by a central not-for-profit, to make compulsory chipping possible and easy to find. Would it also be possible for the Welsh Government to consider whether animal welfare volunteers could gain a qualification allowing them to access the database, to support the return of lost animals as well? Would that be a consideration, please, for the future?

Thank you. So, any future changes that we have to the legislation would obviously have to be subject to a full public consultation. So, I suppose that's the sort of question that we could ask for. I mentioned in my original answer to you, Carolyn, that my officials are working particularly very closely with the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, because this is something that obviously they're looking at. I should say microchipping is available for all dogs and cats. It's not compulsory for cats, but I think it is really good practice for all responsible owners to get their pets microchipped. So, in England, as I say, this is something that they're bringing forward. Any cat over 20 weeks in England will have to be microchipped by 10 June of this year. 

Well, in fact, in Wales, 156,800 or 28 per cent of owned cats are still not microchipped, a figure that, according to Cats Protection research, has stagnated for the past several years. Microchipping cats in Wales is not currently compulsory, as you indicate, unlike in England, where, from 10 June 2024, cats will need to be microchipped and registered on a database by the time they're 20 weeks old. The Welsh Government's animal welfare plan for 2021-26 says that:

'In partnership with the UK and Scottish Governments, we have commissioned research on the effectiveness of existing dog microchipping regulations. The research will also report on the potential benefits of the compulsory microchipping of kittens and cats.'

One of the action points in this plan states that Welsh Government would

'consider extending compulsory microchipping to include kittens and cats'

and also:

'To consider, dependant upon the outcome of the research and consultation, new microchipping regulations for dogs and cats in Wales.'

So, given that this is now 2024, what did the research and consultation conclude? How is that shaping the Welsh Government's policy? And what plans and timescales, if any, do you have for introducing and monitoring compulsory microchipping? 

On the timescale point, it will be within the animal welfare plan timescale, so that's obviously before 2026. I think it's unlikely that it will be this year. I don't think it will be 2024 and this year of the animal welfare plan. But you referred to England, and DEFRA did consult, and it was on a basis of England-only. But DEFRA did commit to working with both Welsh Government and the Scottish Government, particularly around the issues on database, because, clearly, any issues around database that they brought forward would have an impact on Scotland and Wales. So, I mentioned that our officials were working very closely on that, and we are currently awaiting the results of the consultation that DEFRA led on. But I think that's probably the best timescale I can give you. It will be before 2026, but I don't think it will be this year. 

The proposed sustainable farming scheme is designed to support all farmers in Wales through a universal baseline payment, based on the completion of a set of universal actions, currently at consultation. These actions will be familiar to farmers in north Wales, whether beef, dairy, arable, upland, lowland, extensive or intensive.

Thank you for your response, Minister. And as we've already heard today, and seen today, just outside this place there have been thousands of farmers standing up for their communities, their farms and their very way of life. They see the current proposals in the SFS as an attack on rural Wales and the people who cultivate and nurture our land, and it's obvious why. As we've already heard in this place today, your own impact assessment estimates that 5,500 jobs in rural Wales will be lost as a result, a £200 million hit to the economy, with around 11 per cent fewer livestock in Wales. And these numbers are shocking and should really give serious pause for thought, which I know is something you're looking to do. But it's not just farmers themselves who are likely to suffer, but those in the supply chain too, and by damaging those farm incomes there will be damage to the agri-food supply chain and all those livelihoods that depend on it. So, Minister, I wonder what consideration you're giving and what you're looking to do to not just protect the supply chain, but to help it thrive? 

Thank you. Well, the current proposals absolutely do not attack in the way that you referred to. It is a consultation, and I will repeat: we will look at every piece of information that comes in. You refer to the economic impact in a way that—. I tried to explain what it was, and it was completely the opposite of what you, unfortunately, said. And what it really helped us do was look at the issues that could be apparent in the SFS that we needed to avoid. For instance, one of the things that I think the economic impact did was show us the impact it could have on agricultural outputs, so we need to look at that to make sure that the final scheme absolutely reflects the information that came forward in that way.

I think you make a very important point about the supply chain, and it was good to meet one of the five farmers that Sam Kurtz referred to, who the First Minister and I met on Monday. He represented himself, but he worked in the supply chain, and it was really good to hear his concerns about the impact it could have. But, as I say, nothing has been decided, nothing will be pre-empted, and we will, obviously, work to a sustainable farming scheme that every farmer in Wales will want to be part of.

The fact that so many farmers and others from rural north Wales have come here to Cardiff Bay today is a sign of the strength of feeling that there is and the concerns regarding the scheme as it currently stands. The talk of losing thousands of jobs, of course, gives rise to deep concern not just across the sector, but across rural Wales in its entirety. The Minister is the Minister for rural affairs, not just agriculture. Does she agree with me that, when we think about the impact of losing so many jobs across north Wales, that consideration must be given to the impact on the economy, on the language, on how many children there are in schools, on the ability to provide public services such as viable buses in rural areas, and that the Welsh Government has to consider that in thinking about the next steps to make this a scheme that can be implemented practically?

Absolutely, I do. I think that was the point I was trying to make. It's not just listening to one voice; you have to listen to many voices, and you have to think about the impact across a wide range. As you said, I'm the Minister for rural affairs; I'm not just Minister for agriculture, so it is really important that you look holistically at that, because we want the best scheme possible, and we want the best scheme possible not just for our farmers, but for all parts of our rural communities. I've always said I know that when the basic payment scheme goes to a farmer, they don't keep that money for themselves. That money goes into the rural community—they employ contractors to help them at different, busy times of the year, for instance, and it goes into their local shops, it goes into their local venues where they go. It goes right across the rural community. One of the things around the agriculture Act, which you know was passed unanimously in this Chamber, if you look at the four sustainable land management objectives, the fourth one—and this was in partnership particularly with Cefin Campbell, who helped us so much in relation to that fourth one, through the co-operation agreement with Plaid Cymru—was about the language and the culture of our country.

Thank you. The Welsh Government remains committed to improving the financial and environmental performance within the Welsh dairy industry to build sustainable, resilient businesses. Regenerative farming principles align with sustainable land management objectives that underpin future farming and land management support.

I thank you for that answer, Minister. Sometimes, people look at dairy farming and suspect there's only one direction of travel: it's the consolidation of units, bigger herds in barns rather than out on the pasture, it's the creation of more slurry, and so on. But, actually, there are more and more people now who are taking up approaches to regenerative dairy farming, including here in Wales within spitting distance, and north Wales as well has some fantastic examples, I have to say. They are economically sustainable as well as better for the environment, for river quality, for the quality of the soil, and everything else. Some of this work is being driven, I have to say, far-sightedly, by some of the milk distributors as well. So, I wonder, Minister, can we do more with the retailers and the milk wholesalers and distributors to actually try and incentivise regenerative dairy farming and show that there doesn't have to be one direction of travel—losing jobs, losing farm units—but that we can actually look at a modern version of a much more traditional way of thinking about mixed farming?

I think the Member makes a very good point, and, certainly, I did speak with a farmer who does farm regeneratively. He used to farm organically and he's now changed to regenerative farming. I think there has been a bit of a shift to regenerative farming from organic because they can see the benefit for the farm business. I certainly think we can do more to work with the retailers and look at this. I haven't had any of the milk producers contact me, but I will ask my officials to perhaps have that discussion. Thank you.

There is, of course, a growing global market for dairy products due to the increased population, so I think there is a real opportunity here in Wales for climate-friendly nutritious milk, but, under the current proposals for the SFS, the Welsh Government's modelling that's attached to that shows us that we could see 45,000 fewer dairy cows in Wales. So, I'm trying to align this: there's an opportunity here for us to increase nutritious, healthy milk here in Wales, and supply not only Wales, but the world, but, under the current SFS proposals, that's not going to do that; that's going to have the opposite effect. So, how is that going to be squared?

Well, as I've said quite a few times this afternoon, that economic analysis is not part of the current consultation that's out. There will be a new economic analysis.

Thank you. I am committed to ensuring the welfare of racing greyhounds in Wales is not compromised. On 8 December, I launched our consultation on the regulation of animal welfare, which includes a section on greyhound racing, requesting evidence to inform our position on legislation.

Thank you, Minister, for your answer. Minister, as Chair of the Senedd Petitions Committee, I was proud of the report we produced on greyhound racing in Wales, and I'd like to thank the lead petitioner, Hope Rescue, who initiated the petition and the subsequent inquiry for the committee. A majority of committee members supported a phased ban on greyhound racing, and the committee was pleased to see the consultation include the question around greyhound racing, and so we were pleased to see your commitment to the committee there, Minister. With the consultation coming to an end on Friday, could you just outline what the next steps are and how the Welsh Government will respond to the consultation?

Thank you. Well, as Jack Sargeant points out, the consultation does end on Friday and, as you can imagine, we are getting a significant number of responses in this last week, which often happens during consultations. I'm sure we'll see the same for the sustainable farming scheme coming to a close next week. Obviously, the petition you refer to garnered over 35,000 signatures. I think it is a particular area of interest, and, following the report that you brought forward from your committee, that did call for a ban on greyhound racing, and the report's been considered. We have the Government response, which has, obviously, been published now and is publicly available, and I did commit to including that question on a phased ban. So, once we've received all the responses, again, there will be a period where every response is read and we can see what the responses are.

Minister, at the weekend, Wales's only dog-racing track pressed ahead with a race on a severely waterlogged course. During the 14:42 race on Sunday, a dog crashed into the wall of the course, becoming severely injured. While the race was eventually abandoned, the Valley, which is seen as the pinnacle of the Greyhound Board of Great Britain's welfare standards, simply listed that there was no race. There was no mention of the injured animal—Ranches Bandit had cuts and bruising to his face. The dog also has a heavily bandaged right hind leg, which it is not able to put weight on properly. There is no x-ray machine at the Valley track. The vet there will only have been able to give very basic first aid, and, with limited emergency veterinary availability in the region, it is likely the dog would have to return to its trainers for any surgery. Minister, do you agree that this is totally unacceptable, and will you now consider a total, immediate ban on greyhound racing in Wales? Thank you very much.

Thank you. So, I think that what you have just told the Chamber is incredibly distressing. As the Member knows, I've previously met with the owners of the Valley stadium. I've met with representatives of the Greyhound Board of Great Britain, I've met with welfare organisations to discuss the welfare issues and plans for the Valley site. I know that animal health officers have carried out a series of inspections at race events. I'm not aware of one that's been carried out this year. Officers are always accompanied by a veterinary expert, and I will ask officials to speak with the local authority to see if any other inspections are planned. And, as I said in my answer to Jack Sargeant, the consultation closes next week, and, obviously, when the responses have all been considered, we will be able to bring forward proposals.

Good afternoon, Minister. I'm incredibly grateful for the cross-party support for a ban on greyhound racing. I just really wanted to ask you a question about the consultation process. I understand that you, or your officials, have been requested to visit Valley racetrack as part of the consultation process by the Greyhound Board of Great Britain. I understand that's happened. I'm not sure if you're able to confirm that today. But I just really wanted to seek your assurance that, if that was the case, you would also consider, or your officials would consider, also visiting Hillcrest, which is the home that rescues what, in essence, are dumped greyhounds from the racetracks. We were lucky enough to get our second greyhound, Wanda, from Hillcrest, which is a wonderful institution, but it is struggling. The day we took Wanda home, there was a waiting list of other greyhounds ready to take her place in the kennels. So, I wonder if you could just tell us whether you've had a request to visit Valley racetrack, and, if you have, whether you would consider, for balance, visiting Hillcrest as well in order to get another perspective on the greyhound racing world? Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Thank you. And I'm aware, obviously, that Wanda has found a wonderful home with you, and is, I know, keeping you very busy. I have had a request to attend Valley stadium. I haven't had the opportunity to do that; my officials have, as you say. And I and my officials would be very happy, if you would like to invite us to Hillcrest, for us to consider that.

My officials and I are in regular contact with farmers, the farming unions and wider agricultural stakeholders on all aspects of the development of the sustainable farming scheme.

Minister, you say you've spoken at length with the sector; the protest, of course, outside says otherwise. So, this means one of two things: you have either failed to listen when meeting farmers and unions when drawing up these current proposals, or you have listened and are now wilfully ignoring the pleas of farmers and, instead, are intent on punishing their livelihoods. Either way, it's clear the current proposals are not fit for purpose and only lead to more anger, upset and worry for our farmers, who we so heavily rely on and are so vitally important, as well as our future generations, many of whom, actually, were outside just now in the protest, as it's their future, their livelihoods in the future that you will negatively affect with these proposals.

As a dairy farmer's daughter, I know that milk produced in Wales has one of the lowest carbon footprints in the world. The modelling published by this Welsh Government suggests that these proposals would see more than 45,000 fewer dairy cows in Wales. Not only would this put thousands of livelihoods across the supply chain at risk, but, by destocking our farms, we become less productive. To put this in context, these proposals would result in and mean the equivalent of taking over 648 million pints of milk off the shelves around the world. If you go ahead as planned and you take away food production land, this will mean that we have to import in the future. So, Minister, my question to you is: are you saying that any future imports as a result of these proposals will come from carbon-neutral farms around the world and will be transported by carbon-neutral transport? If not, surely you're just moving the problem elsewhere and doing nothing to help the planet, whilst punishing Welsh farmers as you do it. You say you want a sustainable Wales, but this flies in the face of sustainability. It's time to pause this consultation, isn't it, Minister, and go back to the drawing board?

Well, we're not pausing the consultation, there are eight days to go—so, we are not pausing the consultation. And I don't want to punish anybody, and certainly not our farmers.

You mentioned future generations, and you're absolutely right to mention future generations. It's imperative that the sustainable farming scheme supports that sustainable food production. And what is the biggest threat to sustainable food production? It's the climate emergency. And we know our future generations are going to be farming in a much more wide-ranging pattern of weather. We've seen it, haven't we? We've seen snow in May, we've seen flooding when, you know, we wouldn't expect to see it. So, we have to make sure that the sustainable farming scheme works for every farmer in every part of Wales. There'll be no pause of the scheme. You will have heard me say in earlier answers to Llyr Huws Gruffydd about the process that will now be gone through. It will be an extensive piece of work that will need to be done, because I'm sure we will have many, many responses, but it is a plea to make sure everybody puts their views forward. I can absolutely assure you that to talk about words like 'punish' is completely incorrect.

You asked me about the extensive consultation. Well, there are over 24,000 farmers in Wales, and obviously I can't speak to every one. I visit farms regularly. I meet with the National Farmers Union, I meet with the Farmers Union of Wales, I meet with the Country Land and Business Association, I meet with individual farmers. And it's really important to hear all those views. I mentioned in an earlier answer—I think it was to Sam Kurtz—that it was really good to hear five individual farmers' views, just this week, on a very wide range of farming, and it's really important that conversation continues, and it will continue.

I thank the Minister.

The next item will be the topical question. The topical question today is to be answered by the Minister for education, and it's to be asked by Adam Price.

Coleg Sir Gâr has undertaken a review of its estate in order to ensure that they meet the needs of learners. As part of that, they have decided to make a significant investment in the Pibwrlwyd campus, with services moving there from Ammanford.

It will be a major blow for Ammanford and the entire area to see the closure of the college in Ammanford. I don't have to tell you that, of course, Minister, because we jointly represent the Amman valley. The college has been there since 1927. The Conservatives—. When they closed the local coal mine, they wouldn't have dared to close the further education college too, and I regret that a Labour Government supports this intention. You have the option. There is an application to make a final decision with regard to the plans that you refer too. Will you make it clear to the college that you won't support the scheme in its current form unless there is a clear commitment to continue to provide further education directly in Ammanford, and to add to the scheme by investing in the buildings currently there on the campus?

Well, as the Member will know, I'm sure, the outline strategic programme has been in train since 2017, and the strategic outline case since 2023. No final decision has been made on funding. That will be reliant on a final business case. But it is a decision for the college to decide on their own arrangements in terms of the campus. The plans that they have will mean a significant investment in the Pibwrlwyd campus, which also includes significant leisure and well-being facilities, to better provide for the needs of students across their college more generally. Commitments have been given by the college on transport and other arrangements that will be appropriate for those learners in Ammanford.

Thank you for your statement on this, Minister, but I do, however, have to agree with Adam Price on this. I feel like, once again, we are seeing the effects of an education budget that has been cut to the bone with nothing left to cut, and the end result is probable closure for some campuses. Local politicians and councillors in this area have already expressed concern about what it will mean for the learners in Ammanford and the surrounding areas. As Adam said, the campus dates back nearly 100 years now to 1927, and is focused on key things that we want to achieve and which would be beneficial for the areas: health, social care, childcare and construction industry crafts. Minister, the decision would clearly not be right for the area and has provoked a strong reaction from the community. So, as Adam says, will you reconsider it?

Well, it is not a decision for the Welsh Government. It's a decision taken by Coleg Sir Gâr's leadership team and governors, who have agreed that rationalising the existing estate, relocating provision to Pibwrlwyd campus, is the best way of meeting the needs of their learners. This is not a matter of budget choices; this is a matter of investment in the college's estate.

The facilities at the Ammanford campus are, as I understand them, generally in poor condition and are costly to maintain, and the site is also liable to flooding and so it limits the potential for future development on that particular site. At the end of the day, these are strategic questions for the college themselves. They are seeking financial support from the Government, and we will follow the procedure and process that we take in relation to any application for support under the sustainable communities for learning programme.

May I share the same concerns as expressed by Adam Price about the future of the Ammanford campus? As someone who comes from the area, the campus, 'the old tech' as it was called, has contributed a great deal for almost a century, as we've already heard, to the development of skills and lifelong learning of a number of students and older learners in the area for many years now. And so it's a blow to an area that is still suffering economically and socially since the closure of the coal mines back in the 1980s. The town of Ammanford is struggling to regenerate, despite the efforts of the county council to regenerate the town. Seeing this is a further blow to the future of the Amman valley.

What we are seeing here, although we welcome the new development on the Pibwrlwyd campus, is we're seeing students having to travel further from their homes, and in an area where public transport isn't adequate. So, we're asking them to go to Carmarthen or Llanelli or Gorseinon or Neath—public transport isn't available to them to do that. So, that's a question that must be answered.

The economic impact on the town is going to be huge when you take the campus away, with all of the students who attend there, the staff and so on, who go to have their lunch in the town and so on.

I accept that this is a proposal by the college itself, and that you support it, but is it possible for us to commit to collaborate, that you collaborate, that we as local elected Members collaborate with the college, to see whether there is a different alternative future to be found, in a creative way, to ensure that lifelong education and continuing education skills continue to be provided in the Ammanford area? Because at the end of the day, you as a Government have the final decision to make on this through the Welsh education partnership. So, I would ask you to consider the impact of this on so many aspects, and to work with us all to ensure that there continues to be a further education presence in Ammanford.

Just for clarity, the purpose of the investment plan is to secure the best possible resources to secure the best education for learners, and that's what's at the heart of the whole funding plan that we provide as a Government. The proposal has been submitted for some time, as the Member will know, to invest in a development to improve the college facilities as a whole, with a focus on Pibwrlwyd, but the intention is to secure the best education and facilities possible. But, of course, I'm always happy to work with the college, as we do regularly, and with anyone else in order to ensure that the plans are appropriate.

I thank the Minister. 

Item 4 is the 90-second statements, and the first statement is from Samuel Kurtz. 

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Ahead of St David's Day on Friday, I had the pleasure of visiting the Second Pembroke Scouts group to award one of their Cubs, eight-year-old Levi Byrne, with a framed copy of her design of the St David's Day badge. The badge was the winning entry in a competition to design a fun St David's Day blanket badge, which Cubs and Scouts from across the UK can gain, and it attracted over 200 entries. I was delighted to meet Levi and other members of the Scout pack to discuss my role in the Senedd and the importance of democracy and Government.

The Scouting movement is an amazing international youth organisation, started by Robert Baden-Powell in 1908, providing over 14,000 four to 25-year-olds in Wales the skills they need for school, college, university, the job interview, and other essential skills they need for life. I imagine that I'm not alone in this Chamber in having happy memories of being a Cub, myself only for a short period of time, and being able to partake in the fun range of activities that were organised and the life lessons that were learnt.

I would like to thank Alex Pett and the members of Second Pembroke Scouts for making me so welcome, and I express my gratitude to all pack group leaders and volunteers across Wales for the excellent and inspirational work that they do in preparing young people for adult life. The Scouting movement is something that is part of our nation's fabric and, from my experience, it feels that it's in very safe hands. Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd.

Last Saturday, Dan Simms of Caldicot began the mammoth feat of walking from Caldicot castle all the way to Amsterdam in memory of his two close friends who sadly took their own lives, and to raise awareness of men's mental health and the importance of speaking up when you are feeling down.

Three quarters of the people who took their own life in 2022 were men, and tragically, suicide rates amongst men continue to be high. Dan will be walking a marathon every single day for 15 days, covering 600 km and sleeping under the stars until he reaches his destination. After suffering the loss of his two friends, Dan is raising money and awareness for how important it is that men's mental health is made a priority.

Unfortunately, there is still stigma surrounding men's mental health, and many feel they must suffer in silence. The money raised from Dan's walk will go towards charities that support men with their mental health, and to let those around them know that they do not have to go through these challenges alone. Talking openly and honestly about our mental health, whether it is good or bad, is the first step we can all take to normalising these conversations, and Dan is a great example of this in action. I'm sure Members of the Senedd will join me in wishing Dan well as he takes on this challenge in such a good cause.

I'd like to speak to you today about a happy little boy called Ivor who has Angelman syndrome. This is a genetic disorder causing severe learning difficulties and issues with movement and balance. Most people with Angelman syndrome will never talk, and some will never walk. They will need continuous care for the rest of their lives. There are approximately 0.5 million people worldwide living with Angelman syndrome, including about 300 people here in Wales. Fortunately, there is significant progress in medical research around the world with a mission to cure Angelman syndrome.

This wonderful little young man of four years of age, Ivor, walked 1 km every day for a month around his home village in Monmouthshire to raise awareness of Angelman syndrome. He inspired hundreds of people to walk with him and raised thousands of pounds for FAST UK, a charity dedicated to medical research for Angelman syndrome. He has captured the hearts of so many people in his local community and beyond.

Speaking to Ivor's mother about her experience, she wanted to stress how early diagnosis and post-diagnosis support for both the individual and their families is crucial, but desperately lacking. Ivor's family waited 12 months for a blood test result that should have taken six weeks, leading to many months of unnecessary pain and uncertainty. There was very little practical support following diagnosis. Ivor's mother was literally signposted to a charity's website, and then left to her own devices. There does need to be a basic level of additional learning needs training and teacher training courses, and the money needs to follow the child with specific needs like Angelman syndrome.

I thank everyone who came to the drop-in event this week. They loved meeting you. Let's hope, with the greater awareness now, we can really see real change for these people who are suffering with Angelman syndrome. Thank you.

Thank you to the three Members.

Item 5 is a debate on the Culture, Communications, Welsh Language, Sport and International Relations Committee Report, 'International Relations: Annual Report 2022-23'. I call on the committee Chair to move the motion. Delyth Jewell.

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. It's a pleasure to be able to open this afternoon's debate on the committee's behalf. As far as I'm aware, this is the first report of its kind in terms of international relations in the Senedd's history. 

The committee's work in this area includes receiving regular reports, scrutinising the draft budget, and an annual scrutiny session with the First Minister. There are a number of different issues that I would like to raise this afternoon.

Now, it's a shame that the First Minister is not present today. It would have been an opportunity for him to put his own words on the record. I'm quite sure that he too would have enjoyed listening to the different contributions. However, we are very grateful to the Deputy Minister, who will be responding on the Government's behalf.

Last week, the First Minister was asked about his international relations portfolio and its importance to him, and he spoke about Dewi Sant, who emphasised the need and the importance of doing the little things well. That is a pertinent and timely analogy, and, perhaps, a lodestar to guide the Government. In that context, I think it would be fair to characterise our committee's wishes as wanting to ensure that the footprint of that international relations work is greater than the sum of its parts, greater than all those vital little things combined, and that there should be a guiding strategy, an ethos and a programme not only underpinning all of those individual actions, but linking and shaping their purpose, drawing out a pattern that can be mapped onto an outline of the world. After all, Wales's relevance to the world, and our relationships with it, will only grow larger and more significant.

There have been areas where we have expected more from the Government. Most notably, we were disappointed that the First Minister decided not to attend draft budget scrutiny in person. That has caused us some difficulties. The written evidence we received contained errors, and we've been unable to consider the figures with confidence. Our committee's frustration on this is testament, I think, to how vitally important we believe these matters to be, how crucial international relations are to Wales, and that is a view I know the First Minister shares. We've recommended that, in future, the Minister with this portfolio should attend budget scrutiny and draft budget scrutiny in person.

To turn to the international strategy, the Welsh Government doesn't report specifically on that strategy, but we as a committee monitor the progress of the international relations activity. We are assisted by our wonderful team in doing this, by using a combination of Welsh Government overseas office reports, ministerial statements, evidence sessions, Senedd business and social media. A lot of diplomatic engagements are announced on social media—that's the world that we live in. In that regard, we welcome steps that have been taken by the Government to increase and improve the information in the public domain.

As the strategy nears its end in 2025, we've also welcomed the First Minister’s offer to discuss the refresh of the strategy with us, and we'd also like to see that invitation extended to a broader group of stakeholders. We’ve also recommended there should be a progress update on both the short and medium-term actions listed in the strategy. In response to that recommendation, the First Minister accepted that, and we look forward to receiving these updates in due course.

The international strategy also sets out the Government's priority country relationships, the majority of which are in the EU. It is clear to us that UK-EU relations remain a priority both for Government and for stakeholders. We've observed that the absence of a dedicated strategy presents challenges in navigating and providing effective scrutiny of the post-Brexit relationship. Only this morning our committee continued our inquiry into the effects of Brexit on the cultural industries. It is a web with many strands; it's important we have as much clarity as possible, so that we don't become entangled in that web.

To echo contributions made during the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee debate last week, we need to ensure that the four constituent nations of the UK are represented in discussions on UK-EU relations and supported by regular engagement between our countries and the EU. We are concerned that the difficulties faced by stakeholders in attempting to participate in post-Brexit UK-EU structures have led to a reduction in the Welsh voice being heard. Dirprwy Lywydd, we are a nation that is proud of the strength of our voices, both individually and as a chorus. We are concerned that this voice could be further silenced as time goes on. That is why we have recommended that the Welsh Government should produce a dedicated EU strategy. In doing so, we would regain that lodestar I mentioned earlier—a strategy to guide and navigate the post-Brexit relationship, as choppy as those waters can be.

It is a matter of some frustration that the Government has neither chosen to accept nor reject our recommendations that relate to Wales’s relationship with the EU. There seems to be a creeping approach not to commit to a view on such matters by the Government, which is not always helpful. As I've already outlined, the commitment to a refresh of the international strategy, though, is to be welcomed. It is essential that this refresh includes the EU as a priority relationship. In doing this, as Huw Irranca-Davies said last week, we could use the next year to develop our priorities and engage stakeholders and ensure that Wales is in the very best possible position to set out its views when business returns to normal.

As I have already mentioned, the Welsh Government has a number of priority relationships, including Germany, France, Ireland, the US and Canada, as well as many other parts of Europe. A number of these places have active international bilateral agreements in place with Wales. As a result of our committee's work to date, these are now listed on a dedicated Welsh Government webpage, and we do welcome that greatly. We will continue to monitor these relationships during the remainder of our term.

Dirprwy Lywydd, international relations may not be a devolved matter, but it matters. There is so much good work going on in this sector both within and outside Government, so many of the little things Dewi Sant would have praised. The challenge always, and what we strive to see, is that that work should be greater than the sum of those individual actions. And where good work exists, it should be celebrated. As a committee, we are often surprised by how much of this exciting and valuable work is not captured in regular reporting, and that was one of our key findings from our Wales-Ireland inquiry. Our focus as a committee will continue with this work, and we will, I know, be indebted as ever to stakeholders who engage with our work and enrich our understanding. 

We owe them a debt of gratitude. 

At the beginning of this Senedd, we heard from a number of those stakeholders who were worried that the loss of a dedicated Minister for international relations would mean the topic would lessen in prominence. I think it's fair to say that the prominence of these matters has remained true, though there are still concerns, inevitably perhaps, about how focused this work can be without a Minister whose sole priority is this work. The issue of prominence versus focus will, I'm sure, continue, but as this will be the final international relations debate that will happen in this Senedd where our current First Minister has this responsibility, I would like to pay tribute to his evident delight in these issues and his passion for Wales internationally. Whoever next has control of this vital area of work must, we would urge them, champion our nation and her interests. At a time when the world is getting smaller, the part our nation has to play on its stage will only grow. 

I look forward very much to hearing the views of others in our debate this afternoon. 

I'm grateful to the Chair of the committee for introducing this report, and also grateful to the secretariat who have supported the committee in its work. Currently, international relations are the responsibility of the First Minister, and it's always very difficult, knowing that the First Minister has indicated his intention to resign, that this debate doesn't become something of a valedictory debate. But we should, I think, thank the First Minister for the work he's done and how he has represented Wales on the international stage. We know that he's in Brussels today at a St David's Day event, and I also know that his commitment to ensuring that Wales is represented in Brussels and elsewhere has been greatly appreciated by many. 

Much of the committee's recommendations do refer to issues around scrutiny and strategy. I think in terms of how we address the debate this afternoon, it's very much taking stock, if you like, learning lessons, perhaps, and then looking forward. Because what we do know is that in a month's time, we will have a new Minister taking responsibility for these matters, and we'll have a new First Minister who'll be taking forward Wales's place on the international stage. So, I think it's right and proper that this is an opportunity, therefore, for the committee to look back on the past couple of years and to make some, perhaps, thematic recommendations rather than simply each individual recommendation in isolation. 

For me, there are three key areas. First of all, there's the area of scrutiny. In any parliamentary democracy, Ministers are accountable to the Parliament, and it is the Parliament that determines the mode and form of scrutiny, not the Government. The Government will appear in front of committees, and Ministers will appear in order to give evidence when the committees request that they do so. In any democracy, it depends on that relationship, and it is a matter of some great disappointment that we have not had access to the First Minister in the way that the committee would have anticipated and, frankly, expected. It is important in any democracy that we are able to scrutinise the Executive. We can only scrutinise the Executive if the Executive is prepared to appear in front of committees, and I think that is a really key point from this report.

The second point is that of strategy. There are a number of recommendations referring to strategy in this report. We’ve looked at different areas of work the Welsh Government has undertaken in this field. There is a common thread running through all of those, and that is that the Government is more prepared to report on what it has done rather than to tell us what it wants to do, why it wants to do it, and what it seeks to achieve by doing so. But it is only by setting very clear objectives and measurable targets that we can actually scrutinise the Executive and determine whether it has achieved its objectives or not. Without the strategy at the beginning, there’s no purpose to a report at the end. The Welsh Government has repeatedly shied away—and not just in this area, either—from setting out its objectives, setting out what it seeks to achieve, setting out how it expects to achieve its objectives. I think, if there is a learning point for me, we do need the next Minister, the next Government, to ensure that it does set out very, very clear objectives for its work.

Those priorities for me must include the European Union. There’s no question of the Welsh Government’s commitment to EU relations, and no question of the First Minister’s personal commitment to that, and the work that Derek Vaughan is continuing to undertake in European Union institutions is first class. But we heard this morning in committee, as the Chair outlined, some of the appalling situations that are facing the arts and culture sector. We heard about the impact of Brexit on us. Six witnesses spoke repeatedly, one after the other, about the negative effects right across the board of Brexit and the loss of opportunities. People are saying that they can’t find work, they can’t get people here, the costs have increased, the administration has increased, there's the loss of freedom of movement, too much red tape, too many issues with permits, too many issues with carnets, it's too time consuming, and there's no increase in activity outside the EU. Everybody said the same, and even poor Tom Giffard, who I felt very sorry for, I have to say, in trying to find any silver lining, found none at all. So, we do need to focus in on the European Union.

I hope, in replying to this debate, the Deputy Minister will also look at the other areas the Welsh Government has prioritised. The health Minister, I think, is in India at the moment. It would be useful for us to understand what are the objectives of that work, and what she seeks to achieve in this visit.

I’ll finish on this point, Deputy Presiding Officer. I come to this Chamber very often to speak about Tredegar in Blaenau Gwent, but there’s also, of course, another Tredegar, in Richmond, Virginia. I think it’s important that, when we look towards building links across different countries, we look—and the work Rhun ap Iorwerth has led on the international all-party group has sought to do this—towards bringing people with Welsh links together. I hope that, in replying to the debate—

You need to conclude.

—the Deputy Minister will also encourage me in my efforts to create links between Tredegar and Tredegar. Thank you.

Thank you very much to the committee for all of its work on this issue. I'm grateful for the opportunity to speak about international relations this afternoon. I am proud that we, through the work of this committee, have made an effort to position ourselves in the world. Our Senedd has been designed to be transparent and visible so that people can look in upon us and see what we are doing here, but all of that glass, too, is a means for us to look out, and not just look at Wales. We need to look out at the world, and for me, that is crucially important. 

Last week I was in Ireland, and the discussions I had there with stakeholders on trade, energy and politics have demonstrated clearly to me once again that we could and should be doing far more to build on our international relations, and that closest and most important one, in accordance with the conclusions and recommendations of this report and the committee's previous work on links between Wales and Ireland. One thing that stood out to me, by the way, was the level of interest in the cross-party model of the Independent Commission on the Constitutional Future of Wales as a means of discussing political, economic and constitutional issues in an informed and constructive manner—something that is particularly pertinent on the island of Ireland. And we could and should, always within the international community, be seeking ways of sharing good practice, and that naturally works both ways.

Of course, Wales's relationship with Ireland forms a key part of our wider relationship with Europe, and to which this report we’re debating today draws particular attention. Indeed, the report calls for clearer, more deliberate, thinking about Wales’s relationship with the EU. Welsh Government currently lacks, I think, a strategic approach on post-Brexit EU-UK relations, with the renegotiation of the terms of this relationship by 2025. I think this gap needs to be addressed urgently.

Now, the findings of this report echo and build on those of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee’s recent work on UK-EU governance, which highlighted a clear lack of influence for Wales on the frameworks governing post-Brexit EU-UK relations. And I am unequivocal about this: whenever decisions are being taken that affect the people of Wales, those that represent them should be in the room. And at the moment, on key decisions, by the Welsh Government’s own admission, this is not the case when it comes to EU-UK governance.

Now, Wales has been locked out of critical governance forums. We’ve played no part, for example, in the renegotiation that led to the Windsor framework, despite its implications for Ireland-Wales trade—something that’s particularly relevant in my own constituency of Ynys Môn. And this, to put it plainly, is entirely unacceptable. And I’d ask what steps the Welsh Government, and in particular the two candidates to be the next First Minister, propose to take to address this glaring democratic deficit.

Now, we in Plaid Cymru are clear and have been for a long, long time, on what we believe is the optimal position for Wales in our relationship with Europe. Wales’s future, from our point of view, is as an independent nation within the EU, but we’re also determined, of course, to strive for the very best for Wales in the here and now, in the circumstances in which we find ourselves. And everything possible should be done to overcome the challenges that Brexit has created for our economy and for our relationships with our closest neighbours. To me, this means the UK as a whole looking to rejoin the single market and customs union. I think we should be making that case strongly—a view, we know, that is shared by at least one of the contenders to be the next First Minister. But I would ask, as a final point today, for the Welsh Government to join me as a whole in calling for this and to outline how we might work together to achieve that.

Wales has much to offer the world: our language, culture, sport, engineering and so much more. The Welsh Government and the Senedd have an important role to play in promoting our values, solidifying economic relations and sharing best policy practice. Many countries are very interested in our Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 and the Welsh language.

The devolved responsibility we have for areas such as research and sustainability give a strong basis on which to work with partners across Europe to learn from one another’s experiences, whilst focusing on tackling our biggest threat, the climate emergency.

I welcome the Welsh Government’s commitment in its programme for government to increase Wales’s presence in Europe and to retain an office in Brussels. The presence is to ensure the European Union remains our strongest partner and will allow us to work together on our shared values and policy ambitions. It will also enable the Welsh Government to support businesses to trade as efficiently as possible in the future, which is really important post Brexit.

I’ve been disappointed to discover how Wales is often left out of conversations by the UK Government, and when I visited Ghana for the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association conference, I discovered that there were two tiers.

We heard evidence this morning from the creative sector that there have been no gains since leaving the EU, only costs and bureaucracy that have put us at a disadvantage to other countries. More guidance and consistency is needed, not just for those who are travelling, but also for those who are actually working in border control.

The loss of access to funds has also been significant. Creative Europe has just had a massive injection of funds that we can no longer access, but the creative industries do not have UK Government recognition of their importance and value, unlike in Europe. I agree with the First Minister that the current UK Government's handling of Brexit has been wholly unsatisfactory, to say the least, and we need a new Labour Government in Westminster to rebuild co-operation and trust with our European partners on a UK-wide level, particularly when it comes to economic and cultural relations. Wales needs to continue networking to provide opportunities for dialogue and information sharing. They offer a platform to raise Wales's profile and set out our distinct approach and values to an international audience, whilst strengthening relationships with our priority regions and contacts, with whom Wales not only shares membership, but has also co-founded many networks. And as well as promoting Wales on the global stage, we also have a duty to the international community to do what we can to support them, including those facing persecution. 

We have now passed the two-year anniversary of the invasion of Ukraine, and I'm proud that Wales is a nation of sanctuary, offering refuge to those who need it. I'd also like to commend the Welsh Government for creating Academi Heddwch Cymru, the first peace institute that aims to extend Wales's long-standing tradition of peace making and peace promotion, by bringing together the best academic minds and expertise to build a better world through peace-rooted approaches to global challenges. 

I'd like to thank the committee clerks for putting together the report, and to the Chair for introducing it. I look forward to continuing to monitor the Welsh Government’s progress towards the recommendations put forward, as well as focusing on the Government's international strategy implementation. Diolch. 

May I echo the thanks to the committee for its report? I hadn't realised, until the Chair's opening remarks, that this is the first time that we've had a debate on this important matter on the Senedd floor. And I would say that the international awareness of Wales is greater now than ever before. I remember travelling in my twenties in Europe and having to explain to people where Wales was. The awareness of Wales wasn't very high internationally. But this has changed entirely. You can travel all over the world now and people will be aware of Wales, primarily due to the success of our sporting teams. 

As Alun Davies has given a plug to Tredegar in Virginia, may I also give a plug? It was wonderful for me to be in Cardiff, Maryland, at the end of January, and talking in Welsh to people who've never been here, and people's enthusiasm for Wales, and for our language and culture, was infectious. 

I'd like to raise two issues in this debate, Dirprwy Lywydd. First, one of the most powerful arguments, in my view, in favour of Senedd reform is that it will improve scrutiny of the Government. I agree with the culture committee's recommendations, and Alun Davies's comments, on the need for in-person oral evidence sessions. We often hear in this place fair criticism, in my view, of Westminster Ministers for refusing meetings with Welsh Ministers and Senedd committees. I'm sure that we can all agree that giving evidence solely via written statements is not the best means of scrutiny. Often, it isn't the pre-arranged questions that draw the most informative responses, but those supplementary questions that follow naturally in a question and answer session. So, failure to engage in such sessions could set a poor precedent for our Senedd, and could harm its scrutiny function. 

Finally, I'm concerned by the Welsh Government's response to recommendation 8, that its approach to the review of the trade and co-operation agreement will be determined by wider political developments. I read into that that they mean they want to wait for a favourable UK general election result. The clear implication is that they're waiting for a change of Government at Westminster before making a decision. The Welsh Government should not be basing its position on how to make the trade and co-operation arrangement work effectively and on how to improve engagement with the UK Government on who happens to be in Government at Westminster. This is not sustainable. We cannot base this on the long term. We should not be relying on other Governments to act before Wales does. 

Our view on international matters are so important they should not be dependent on the point of view of whoever happens to be in power at Westminster. Logically, this position of waiting to see what happens at Westminster would mean that Wales will always lag behind other countries in terms of our international presence. The Welsh Government should not be waiting for the results of a UK general election, but act proactively to ensure Wales’s voice is heard clearly on the international stage and that we do have a place at the table. Diolch yn fawr. 

Many people have remarked already on the importance of promoting the social, cultural and economic links of Wales internationally, and that is absolutely true. And in case anybody hasn't mentioned it, can I be the very first to congratulate, in that field of international relations, Jess Fishlock and our other players, last night, on their victory in the republic, with apologies to my Irish cousins? But it's part of our international relations, I have to say, what we do on the sporting field as well—wins and losses—going forward. It does matter. But, Dirprwy Lywydd, it's a real pleasure to speak on this today, and it is something of a milestone. 

If we reflect back on where we began as an Assembly all those years ago, and there are a couple of Members who were here at that time, the idea that we'd be having full debates on international relations would probably be unthinkable at that time. But this is quite a milestone, so I really congratulate Delyth and the culture and international relations committee on the production of this first annual international relations report and the debate here in the Senedd. It is something of a milestone, and it's probably a reflection as well of where we are in the post-Brexit landscape, withdrawing from the EU. It's also, I have to say, probably something of a reflection of the maturity and the willingness of this Senedd to not only debate these matters, but to make sure that Welsh Government and the Senedd and all our relations speak very loudly for Wales.

Now, as noted in the debate on the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee report last week on UK-EU governance, both of our committees are agreed on a number of key issues in this area, and it demonstrates significant cross-party consensus on these matters. So, for example, both committees agree that the Welsh Government needs to set out clear, strategic priorities for its future relationship with the EU and to engage with stakeholders in Wales on Wales-EU issues, and that's very good to see. And both committees agree that the Welsh Government's role in the governance of UK-EU agreements must be strengthened.

And we note the First Minister's response in relation to the upcoming review of the trade and co-operation agreement—confirmation that the Welsh Government is focusing on making sure that the TCA works as effectively as possible and focusing on inter-governmental relations on UK-EU matters. So, there is a consistent voice here, coming out from the Senedd and from Welsh Government. Can I say as well, we particularly welcome the commitments secured by the culture committee for the Welsh Government to include its analysis of the UK-EU trade and co-operation agreement in relevant legislative consent memoranda? This transparency is really welcome. 

And, Dirprwy Lywydd, both committees also believe in the importance of direct contact between devolved Governments and legislatures with EU institutions, and, I have to say, the wider European network as well. We may have left the EU, and that means we have to work doubly hard, but we also are part of that wider family of European networks as well, and I think that's been part of our discussion about the need to reach out to EU institutions, but also way beyond that as well—points that had been made, actually, by Adam Price in the debate last week. 

If I can turn as well to international obligations, which are a key part of our devolution settlement, the Welsh Government frequently tells our committee how crucial the role of the Senedd is in international matters, and, of course, we agree. One of the things that's been touched on today, though, is the benefits, but also the challenges, of having the First Minister being the lead and the face of international relations. There are distinct benefits. He is out there today, flying the flag for Wales. The Deputy Minister sitting here has also done that as well. But in terms of getting, then, accountability in front of committees, it has proven to be a bit of a challenge, and whoever is sitting in that seat in future will need to think this through about how we have real accountability here within the Senedd on a more regular basis. It's not that he's been unwilling, in terms of our committee, but it has proven to be a bit of a challenge, partly, I think, because of the workload that the First Minister has as well. 

Now, our LJC committee is responsible for considering the constitutional impacts of legislation on Wales's international legal obligations, of course. So, we welcome the focus that Delyth's committee has brought to this. The culture committee approaches scrutiny of legislation from a different direction, and it scrutinises its impact on international relationships. But, actually, we are twinned on this, we're allies in this important task. In many regards, our committees are partners, two sides of the same coin. So, we really would like to thank the culture committee for this important work in this field and we look forward to opportunities for further engagement and indeed collaboration between the two committees on the important issues. It may indeed be something that both of our committees want to revisit when there is a new First Minister in place, and I welcome this as a milestone for these debates today.

I call on the Deputy Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism, Dawn Bowden.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Can I say at the outset that I welcome the annual report and the committee's dedication to work alongside Government to support our international ambitions and to see Wales's profile grow on the world stage? It's been very good to hear all the contributions from Members today. I'm certainly pleased that, since the committee was established, it's brought forward a series of recommendations and proposals that have improved transparency and reporting procedures.

It's probably incumbent on me at this point to acknowledge the point that a number of Members have made about the appearance or the non-appearance of the First Minister in relation to giving in-person evidence. The First Minister had made it clear—he's been very clear and consistent in his communications with the committee—that he is unable to make multiple appearances at the committee due to his additional FM scrutiny commitments throughout the year, but that he would commit to taking an annual in-person scrutiny session after the publication of the annual report. I think that it's those additional scrutiny sessions in other arenas that are the restricting factor, which I think is a point that Huw Irranca-Davies acknowledged, but any decisions, of course, about future scrutiny will of course be a matter for the incoming First Minister. 

The Welsh Government's Brussels office and our network of offices across Europe, in France, Germany and Ireland, are central to supporting our trade and investment activity and delivering on our commitment to European engagement. We work with partners in Europe on our shared values and policy ambitions and we support businesses to trade as efficiently as possible. With the UK's exit from the EU resulting in additional barriers to trade, it's more important than ever to have a presence across Europe to promote Wales as an investment destination and to support businesses who want to trade with our largest partner, and we must work harder to remain present and relevant to our European partners. To emphasise that point, as has already been recognised, the First Minister is currently in Brussels to mark St David's Day, and his programme includes a reception for VIP guests from EU institutions, from embassies and European regions, as well as meeting with institutions and key partners around renewable energy, research and innovation. 

Now, the Welsh Government has shared policy goals, of course, with the EU on many key issues and challenges such as sustainability, the environment, biodiversity, climate, innovation, equality and social affairs, amongst others, but the Welsh Government at the moment does not agree that a separate EU strategy is needed at this time. Our focus is very much on delivering the international strategy, which includes our relationship with Europe, and the retention of our office in Brussels and the creation of a dedicated representative for the EU affirms our commitment that Wales places a high value on our relations with Europe and the European Union. The focus and the foundation of any development to the relationship with the EU should be around recreating an economic relationship that works for both sides. So, we will begin the work on reviewing and refreshing the international strategy, and our relationship with Europe will form part of that strategy. 

But, through our work at the Brussels office, our European representatives, and our relationships with the European nations and regions, we are re-establishing and reinforcing our connections with EU institutions and partners in a way that reflects the new post-Brexit arrangements. We work with a range of European networks covering a wealth of areas, and these networks raise Wales's profile within Europe, providing detailed analysis to EU policy proposals, and support the building of consortia for inter-regional collaboration. There has been a significant engagement with priority regions in recent years. We've negotiated a new memorandum of understanding with Flanders, a new shared statement with Baden-Württemberg, re-signed our MOU with Brittany and signed an international friendship pact with the city of Birmingham in Alabama. And last month the First Minister was in Poland to sign a new MOU with Silesia, extending a friendship that began more than two decades ago.

Wales has hosted several international partners this financial year, including a delegation from our priority regions at Wales Tech Week. And the delegations included representatives from Silesia, Catalonia, the Basque Country, Flanders, Ontario, Baden-Württemberg and Quebec. And it has been committed to the committee that the Government will provide monthly respective reports on the international visits that take place.

Now all of this, of course, takes place against a backdrop of engagement with Ireland, which has already been referred to as well, which was examined in detail by the committee last year. And 2023, of course, saw us celebrate our relationship with France. This followed Wales in Canada in 2022. And whilst we are still evaluating the outcomes of those, I can share that we delivered more than 40 events, with a mixture of diplomatic, trade, education and cultural outcomes. We also saw engagement with 400 key French stakeholders across Paris, Lyon and Nantes, and new partnerships were formed across media, music, culture and education.

We also used the year in France to promote a globally responsible and inclusive Wales, with a programme placing Welsh values at its heart, featuring young, diverse, female and LGBTQ+ voices, the Welsh language, and maintaining our commitment to net zero, with an extensive programme around decarbonisation and green energy. A central pillar of the Wales in France year, of course, was the men's Rugby World Cup. And we used this to raise Wales's profile and develop Welsh expertise in sports diplomacy.

In 2024 we celebrate Wales in India, and I look forward to the opportunities that will bring the Government and external stakeholders working together again for Wales.

As a former First Minister frequently reminded this Chamber, you cannot promote Wales from behind a desk. And this remains true. Last year, Ministers visited Belgium, France, Germany, Ireland, Denmark, the Basque Country and the USA. Every year St David's Day provides us with an opportunity to bring Wales to the world. As mentioned, the First Minister is in Brussels again, and the Minister for Social Justice will be in Ireland, and the Minister for Health and Social Services will travel to Mumbai and Kerala to launch Wales in India and take part in a wider programme of meetings and events. The rural affairs Minister will be joining the US ambassador at the US embassy in London tomorrow for her St David's Day event and to celebrate the strong links between Wales and the USA.

But international engagement, of course, doesn't just happen when we travel to other countries. An outwardly-focused nation is also a welcoming and inviting nation and in 2023 we welcomed international representatives to Wales from across the globe. The German ambassador recently visited Wales to discuss our bilateral agreement with Baden-Württemberg and the wider relationship. And the First Minister has also ensured that he has visited ambassadors in London whenever the opportunity has arisen.

We continue to work closely with our strategic partners, including arts and sports organisations, the future generations commissioner, our global diaspora and our priority regions and countries to support the delivery of our international strategy.

The international strategy, as we've heard, runs until 2025 and this year is the chance to review the work that has been delivered so far and to consider our future international work. But the review will very much be a matter for the new First Minister.

You need to conclude now, Minister. 

I've got just a couple more points to make, Chair. 

No, you need to conclude now, Deputy Minister.

Okay. The international profile of Wales continues to rise. Our nation's success in sport and culture, our innovative approach to policy means that our demand for international engagement is high and increasing. And despite challenging budgets we will use the achievements from the last four years to build on raising Wales's profile in the future. Diolch yn fawr.

And I call on the committee Chair, Delyth Jewell, to reply to the debate. 

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. I think the fact that so many Members have wanted to take part in this debate today is a testament to how important the subject is.

Alun voiced his own thanks to the First Minister for the First Minister's passion for Wales internationally. He characterised our report as 'taking stock', though he did voice to our disappointment, of course, about the lack of access that we have had to the First Minister, maybe not as much as we would have liked. I think that our committee would all agree that the EU must be a priority for the next First Minister. And the point about having measurable targets—that's something again that we would all support. Alun often talks about Tredegar. It was wonderful to hear about the other Tredegar too, and I look forward to hearing much more about the two Tredegars in future months.

Rhun spoke about the importance of the fact that we locate ourselves in the world. He spoke about transparency and glass. As the poem on the Wales Millennium Centre reminds us, creating truth like glass is the challenge for us. Rhun mentioned Ireland—which is close to our hearts as a committee—and the fact that Wales needs to be in the room for discussions with the European Union. There is a democratic deficit emanating from the fact that we aren't around that table. I think that we, as a committee, would agree, in terms of a number of the findings that we have come to.  

Carolyn set out more Wales's role in the world, and what we offer to the world. She alluded to her experience in Ghana, how at times we might be seen from the outside. Carolyn spoke about some of what we are uncovering again in our inquiry relating to Brexit and cultural institutions, which Alun had also referred to. Wales has led the way as a nation. The global footprint of Wales, the global challenges that we face together, like climate change, the many wars and struggles facing our planet—they are, vitally, something where Wales has to have that part.

Rhys spoke about the high degree of awareness of Wales internationally. He said that this was partly because of sport, perhaps, but he also spoke about the diaspora community in Maryland. It's fascinating to hear about how we, as Welsh people, are seen, and how the Welsh language is being spoken worldwide. Rhys expressed his concern about the poor precedent that could be set by the fact that we don't always receive the ministerial access in this area that is needed.

Thank you as well to Huw for speaking in this debate. I'm sure that we would all join you in congratulating Jess Fishlock and the team. Thank you for your kind words. I do think that this is a milestone for our committee. It's an important one, and we do really wish to work together with your committee on this. We intend this to be first of annual reports on international relations work. I hope that it will mean a legacy of annual debates on this too.

There is, I think, a great deal of commonality between our committees, particularly on UK-EU relations, of course. You referred to our committee as allies, and we are indeed allies, and I hope very much that we will be able to look at these issues together. Particularly, you had set out, Huw, I think, the benefits and the challenges of having the First Minister as the Minister with this responsibility, and that may be something that we could look at in the future. This is something that came up in the Deputy Minister's contribution as well.

I thank the Deputy Minister.

We do appreciate the commitments, of course, on the First Minister's time. As Huw had said, we don't believe that this has anything to do with a lack of willingness. I think that it comes back to that challenge of the prominence given—the added prominence given—to international relations by being in the First Minister's portfolio, the prominence versus the focus. That is a duality, and I think that it's something that our committee, alongside the LJC committee, will need to keep an eye on.

The work going on in Brussels is to be welcomed—everything that the Deputy Minister was setting out. We would argue that a separate strategy would aid that greatly. There would be no better way, diplomatically, of sending that message to the EU that we want to engage with them than to have that strategy.

I would welcome so much of the good work, and the really exciting work, that the Deputy Minister was setting out. I think that that reiterates the point that there is so much of this vital stuff that is going on that isn't being captured in the regular monitoring, or what is sent to us. So, I really hope that that can be addressed, because we want to celebrate the good stuff too. We want to be able to take delight in, and champion, all of the wonderful things that are happening, as well as pointing out where we would like to see more.

Now, in a few weeks' time, we will have a new First Minister. Whoever becomes the next First Minister, we as a committee want them to ensure that international relations are not neglected, or put on the back burner of Government. Rather, it's a golden opportunity for the new Cabinet to be in the vanguard when it comes to prioritising international relations. We as a committee are determined to play our part to ensure that the world continues to learn about our historical, beautiful, unique and modern nation. Our hope is that the Welsh Government will do everything within its power to do exactly the same, and to tell a story that St David himself would be pleased to hear.

The proposal is to note the committee's report. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Item 6 today is a Welsh Conservatives' debate on the sustainable farming scheme, and I call on James Evans to move the motion. 

Diolch, Deputy Presiding Officer. I move the motion tabled in the name of my colleague, Darren Millar.

Today, I stand to open this debate with a very heavy heart, burdened by the potential devastation facing rural Wales. The Welsh Government's proposed sustainable farming scheme, in its current form, threatens the very fabric of our communities. It threatens the fabric of our farmers, our families, our friends and the whole of rural Wales. The Welsh Government's own commissioned impact assessment figures paint a grim picture: 5,500 job losses, 122,000 livestock units lost and to top it all off, a staggering £199 million loss to the economy. Those numbers I quote aren't mere statistics, they represent real people, real families. And I'm not talking alarmist nonsense, as our First Minister indicated to me last week. This is the Welsh Government's own commissioned impact assessment. These impacts are the concerns from seasoned farmers to the bright eyes of our young farmers and the wider associated businesses.

The sustainable farming scheme in its current form casts a long shadow of uncertainty and unworkability for many farming businesses in Wales. At the heart of our anxieties lies the potential erosion of the very foundation of rural communities. The projected decline in farm income due to reduced output and increased compliance costs threatens the livelihoods of countless families who have dedicated generations to stewarding the land. This economic anxiety extends far beyond the farm gate. The potential widespread job losses across the entire agricultural sector would ripple through the very fabric of our communities, impacting agricultural supply chains, local businesses and the overall economy of Wales.

One element that worries me and my group hugely in the current sustainable farming scheme proposal is the potential threat to the very food security of Wales. The projected reduction in livestock numbers, particularly sheep, would impact our own nation's food security. This decline, coupled with a potential decrease in agricultural output, could lead to an increased reliance on food imports, compromising quality and environmental standards. Our farmers in Wales produce the best food in the world and they should be rewarded properly for doing that.

It is often quoted by Ministers that the sustainable farming scheme has been seven years in the making. However, this final draft has come as a shock to many in the sector, including the farming unions and those farmers who sat on the co-design groups. The tree planting and habitat targets are unworkable and it was asked for them to be removed, and some of the universal actions are downright insulting to farmers. It will force many of them off the land or to become reliant on bureaucrats or consultants—that's something none of us wants to see. This has been evidenced by the unprecedented numbers that have attended the consultation events up and down Wales. It is testament to the strength of feeling that the farming unions are working together on this, and I think the numbers coming to Cardiff Bay today are a plea to the Welsh Government to listen to their concerns and to start being a friend to rural Wales. 

I am pleased that the Minister and First Minister have met with farming representatives and the unions. And yesterday, you published a joint statement outlining the next steps and some announcements in areas where the Welsh Government is looking to make changes with regard to TB, nitrate-vulnerable zones and the sustainable farming scheme itself. And the response from the farming unions has been positive. But warm words, Minister, will only go so far, and actions to address the defects in the sustainable farming scheme and in certain policies are what are needed from this Government to reassure the farming community that you are listening.

Farmers are not adverse to change. They have adapted, over the years, to many of the Welsh Government schemes, such as Tir Gofal, Glastir, woodland creation schemes and different types of habitat schemes that have come out from the Government. These schemes, in the past, have delivered conservation benefits and carried out the asks that the Welsh Government has told them to do. The environmental actions in the sustainable farming scheme can only be brought about with the co-operation of our farmers. It is essential that the Welsh Government work with farmers to make a scheme that is workable, achievable and one that will ensure that our farmers keep farming.

One element that is very important to me and to many Members is the mental health of our farmers. Rural mental health charities have been ringing off the hook with people who are seriously concerned about their future, and their mental health is being detrimentally affected. I want to say to those farmers, if there are any listening out there, don't suffer in silence at home alone, seek out help and support, because the rural communities across Wales will support you.

Let us not underestimate the seriousness of this situation. We stand at a crossroads. Does this current Welsh Government pursue a path paved with job losses and economic hardship, or do we, together, find a way and a solution that safeguards our rural communities, our environment, and, more importantly, our farmers? I urge the Welsh Government to listen to the cries of the farmers outside and across Wales, engage in an open dialogue, acknowledge their concerns and work collectively to refine the sustainable farming scheme. Because I would like to say to everybody in this Chamber, a sustainable future doesn't come at the cost of rural communities. We need a balanced approach, one that protects the environment while nurturing the economy.

Together, we can build a Wales that thrives, where environmental responsibility goes hand in hand with vibrant farming communities. I urge every Member in this Chamber today to do the right thing for our farmers and rural Wales, support our motion, be the friend that farmers and our rural communities need. This is our chance—our chance—to send a clear message to the people of rural Wales that we are on your side, and we in this Chamber are your friend.

Many Members have asked to speak this afternoon, but, unfortunately, not everyone will be called within the time available.

I therefore ask all those who are going to contribute today to make sure you keep within the times, so we can get as many in as possible, please.

I have selected the amendment to the motion, and I call on the Minister for Rural Affairs and North Wales to move formally amendment 1, tabled in her own name.

Formally.

I just want to start my contribution by making a comparison that many of you will have heard me make in the past, but I think it's a fair comparison, because 40 years ago, many of us here in the Chamber, in almost all parts of the Chamber, perhaps, stood shoulder to shoulder with the miners as they battled for their livelihoods. Many of us now stand shoulder to shoulder with the steelworkers of Port Talbot in their battle to secure their livelihoods and ensure that just transition from what they have now to a more sustainable future. I don't see any difference between the laudable and valid stances taken then and the stance taken by many today in terms of our rural communities and the agriculture industry.

The economic assessment that we've just heard about, of course, is one that we know, don't we? We've seen the figures: 5,550 jobs, £200 million lost from the rural economy, and, of course, we, on a number of occasions here, have talked about how every £1 that goes into the agriculture  industry produces £9 in return on investment. So, if we take £200 million out, we're taking nine times that out of the rural economy.

Now, I know that the Minister has said, in fairness, and we must recognise this, that that modelling was undertaken on a model that isn't the exact model that's before us today when it comes to the consultation. But, of course, let's be honest, it hasn't changed that much, has it, compared with what we had before us previously. Perhaps it's not 5,500, but it will be a significant number of jobs lost, and that's the concern.

And we're only talking there about the economic elements. We know about the social impact that that would have on rural communities. We know about the impact that that would have on culture in rural areas, and on the Welsh language, of course, bearing in mind that the sector is one of the main stalwarts of the Welsh language. And I will return to the environmental element, but those are some pillars. We have the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 here in Wales, and if there were to be an assessment painting a relatively similar picture once again, then I question whether that would meet the statutory obligations of this Government when it comes to the well-being of future generations Act.

I just want to elaborate a bit on the environmental aspect, because we've seen an emerging sort of polarisation, haven't we, of views—or perceived views, maybe we should say—and, clearly, certain people have infiltrated the debate around this to pursue their own agendas. But I just want to say that anyone who might characterise farmers as rejecting a willingness to change, as rejecting a recognition that they have a big part to play in helping all of society meet its challenges and its demands in relation to climate change, well, they're deluded. The industry is absolutely committed. In fact, ironically, the industry has committed itself to net zero by 2040, which is earlier than the Welsh Government's commitment, by the way. So, let's not try and sort of polarise the discussion and characterise it to be something that it absolutely isn't.

But the Government has to take everybody with them on this journey. If the scheme doesn't work for our family farms, then who is going to deliver on the outcomes that we all want to see delivered through a scheme? Everyone loses under those circumstances. I've been told countless times by those who attended the roadshows that, as the officials were running through the list of universal actions, by the time they got to seven or eight, they'd already decided it wasn't for them, and they weren't even halfway through the list of universal actions. So, I really do think, on a pragmatic level, that we need to relook at the number of universal actions to make it more workable.

We've touched previously—and I did so in my questions earlier about the 10 per cent tree cover—on the fact that it's a one-size-fits-all policy for an industry that is anything but one size. It could be lowland, it could be upland, it could be the most productive land, a less-favoured area, it could be dairy, it could be beef, it could be lamb, it could be arable, and yet everybody's asked to do the same thing. We do need more flexibility. Trees are part of the answer, absolutely, but they aren't the only answer.

And yesterday's statement, I'll acknowledge, yesterday's statement about a broader suite of options was welcome, but, of course, the farming unions have been offering you this. NFU Cymru pointed to the ARCZero scheme in Northern Ireland last year. You were made aware of it: accurate, individual, whole-farm carbon balance sheets, utilising trees, soil, hedges and others. We were blown away by the presentation on that in a recent NFU conference. You were invited, I think, to go to Northern Ireland. You chose not to, so let's hope that you revisit those opportunities.

Llyr, you need to wind up, please.

Okay. The key message, then, is if farmers don't buy into the scheme, then you risk ending up with a scheme that nobody delivers and delivers for nobody.