Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru

Good afternoon and welcome to the Senedd Plenary meeting. The first item will be questions to the Minister for Economy, and the first question is from Samuel Kurtz.

Thank you for the question. We're working in collaboration with industry, businesses, learning providers and key stakeholders to increase our skills capacity across Wales. This will help us to grow a skilled and diverse workforce to meet our future economy needs, and I look forward to doing so right across Carmarthenshire and Pembrokeshire. 

Thank you, Minister. You may have heard yesterday in my question to the First Minister that I was recently part of a round-table discussion at RWE's power station in Pembroke in my constituency, where industry and stakeholders fed in their wants when it comes to maximising the opportunity in the renewable sector and decarbonising the South Wales Industrial Cluster, which stretches from Gwent to Pembrokeshire. You’ll be aware of SWIC’s vision and the opportunities, nay, the necessity in decarbonising our industries, our major employers in south Wales. However, Minister, what was really pressed home at the round-table was the need for futureproofing skills and, if we’re to maximise the benefits of the projects in the Celtic sea and across south Wales, we really need to work with our colleges and training sectors to prepare for the number of skilled workforce we will need in the future. So, would you agree with me that it’s now time to look at the SWIC not just as an industrial cluster, but as an opportunity for a centre of skills excellence, stretching right across the south Wales corridor, supporting the future skills necessary in these sectors? Diolch, Llywydd.

Yes. We continue to have really constructive conversations with RWE and the wider cluster. It’s why we created Net Zero Industry Wales—to help us to make progress on the journey to decarbonisation in a manner that we think is a just transition. Because there are opportunities for jobs in the future as well as the disruption that the transition will create. I met with RWE when I was in Germany last week and we had a conversation about a range of their plans, obviously focused on what they’re looking to do in Pembrokeshire and its broader impact as well. The challenge will be how we manage to get different arms of Government here, local government and the regions of the Swansea bay city deal area, and not just the individual local authorities, but also to see that we have a supporting environment with the UK Government, to take advantage of all of those opportunities. It’s another area where I think a pragmatic approach can lever in significant opportunities for Wales and what we can do.

And I should point out, as the Member has asked questions about future skills in this area, that not only are we in the right place in terms of our policy and what we want to do, but, of course, Pembrokeshire College is a key part of that. And it’s worth while noting that, on the skills front, in the skills competition that takes place, Wales continues to punch above its weight. There have been five medallists from Pembrokeshire College in the recent UK foundation skills competition. So, it shows that the talent is there; we need to ensure that the pathways are there for those people to go into work that will have a long-term future and will benefit all of us.

Can I thank Janet Finch-Saunders for that question? I regularly engage with the visitor economy stakeholders in relation to tourism and wider matters, including permitted development rights.

Thank you. As you and I both know, tourism is the backbone of our economy not just in north Wales, but across the whole of Wales, but, in north Wales, it generates £1.8 billion annually. According to the latest tourism barometer, only the attractions sector has seen visitor levels rise. All other sectors report being down, on balance, especially activity providers, where 62 per cent are down, and caravan and campsites, 48 per cent are down. Now, some landowners have been using and exercising their permitted development rights to run those pop-up sites for tents, caravans, camper vans and motor homes for up to 28 days a year, without needing to apply for extra planning. But a large number of those have told me that they want us brought more in line with England, where you can do that exact same initiative for 60 days. So, the UK Government is backing landowners and the tourism sector by extending these permitted development rights from 28 days to 60. Will you do the same here in Wales, please?

Well, thank you for that supplementary question, Janet. And you're quite right, extending the time limit for temporary use of land for campsites was part of the measures around the COVID-19 pandemic. We had restrictions on foreign travel, so we were trying to help both the tourism industry and people that needed to have a holiday, by allowing these permitted developments on campsites. So, we are now considering the long-term impacts of extended development rights for temporary campsites, and, actually, we did run a consultation on this. That consultation has now closed and no decision has yet been made on those proposals. And that consultation was about whether we should extend from the current 28 days, which we reverted to, as you quite rightly say, and England didn't. But, in the meantime, while we are considering that, it is fair to say that landowners can still apply for planning permission. So, if they are on a site and they've got their permitted development up to 28 days, if they want to extend that, they can apply for planning consent in the normal way. And then, of course, the local authority will look at all of the issues around planning, as they would in the normal course of events, about the proximity to residents, and traffic, and so on. But we are aware, and I think it is important to say this, through the consultation process, we identified concerns from local residents, as well as benefits to the tourism industry. You've got to strike that balance—

Absolutely right, yes.

You have to strike that balance between what is right for tourism and what is right for local residents. And we did hear concerns from residents living close to pop-up campsites, who've complained about noise and disruption. And, obviously, we've got issues of campsite traffic using narrow lanes, and so on. So, it is a balancing act, but we will listen to all the arguments that have been outlined in the consultation, and we will carefully consider them in light of our planning and tourism policies. I would just say that, obviously, issues related to permitted development are of course the responsibility of the Minister for Climate Change, who I know is taking a close interest in this matter, and I'm sure she'll be interested to hear the views expressed on this today, as well as those from the formal consultation.

Questions now from the party spokespeople. The Conservative spokesperson, Tom Giffard.

Diolch yn fawr. Good afternoon, Deputy Minister. You'll be aware of the Arts Council of Wales's recent decision to controversially de-fund National Theatre Wales, which has caused a great deal of concern for those in the industry. The decision potentially jeopardises the future financial viability of the national theatre, and the future of English-language theatre in Wales more generally. What's also notable is that ACW's impact assessment doesn't include a single number. After undertaking the decision, though, the arts council also indicated they'd undertake a review of English-language theatre in Wales. But do you share my concern, Deputy Minister, that deciding to embark on such a review after a decision to de-fund an organisation has been taken, which reaches tens of thousands of people every year, doing theatre in the English language, puts the cart before the horse?

Can I thank Tom Giffard for that question? As you know, all Welsh Government funding for the arts is channelled through the Arts Council of Wales, and they operate on an arm's-length principle. And under that principle, the investment review, which is what you're talking about, which has led to the decision on the National Theatre for Wales, is a decision for the Arts Council of Wales. Now, what I'm pleased to see is that their first review following the pandemic has now been completed, and I look forward to seeing how the arts council's decisions will support and benefit the communities of Wales. The outcomes of the investment review, as I've said, are a matter for the Arts Council of Wales, and I recognise that they've been through a very robust process, and they've had to make some very difficult decisions, as required, going through that process. There is, of course, an independent appeals process that is currently ongoing, and so it wouldn't be appropriate while an independent appeals process is ongoing for me to comment further. But I do welcome the announcement of the Arts Council of Wales and their commitment to undertake strategic interventions across a number of disciplines, across next year.

Thank you, Minister, for the answer. Obviously, I understand that you refer quite heavily there to the arm's-length principle of the role, which I understand and I respect, but I'm not sure that the Welsh Government can completely wash its hands of that decision. At the end of the day, this is taxpayers' money, and, as the Deputy Minister for arts in the Welsh Government, you have a responsibility to ensure that that money is spent effectively, efficiently, as well as making sure of the wider health of the arts sector in Wales. But, on top of that, the decision to de-fund the national theatre may not be one for the arts council at all, and might actually relate back to the Welsh Government, and, therefore, becomes your responsibility, Deputy Minister. And I refer to the 2007 'One Wales' agreement, which pledged to, and I quote,

'establish a National English-language Theatre',

in order to widen

'access...so that low income should not be a barrier to participation.'

I haven't seen a subsequent announcement from yourself, or any of your predecessors, to suggest that's no longer Government policy. So, can you confirm whether the Welsh Government has given up on its 2007 pledge of establishing an English-language theatre in Wales?

No, absolutely not, but I can't pick and choose as the arts Minister. I can't pick and choose where the Arts Council of Wales carries out its responsibilities as an arm's-length body. The very nature of an arm's-length body means that that is exactly what they do. They make their own decisions, and they distribute their funding based on the principles that we set out in our remit letter to them, so that they're not acting completely out of kilter with what we expect as a Welsh Government. But the way in which their funding is distributed, and the way in which they've undertaken their investment review, is absolutely a matter for the Arts Council of Wales, because that is what the arm's-length principle means. 

Thank you. The Welsh Labour Government were very keen to take the credit in 2007 when this was set up—as I say, it was in the 'One Wales' agreement to establish it. But now it's been de-funded, the Minister washes her hands of it. The national theatre here has been completely de-funded. If, as you say, everything is their responsibility and public bodies are nothing to do with you, people will wonder exactly what the point of having a Deputy Minister in the Welsh Government responsible for the arts is. It's no surprise, therefore, that, this past week, even your own co-operation partners have turned on you, with Heledd Fychan remarkably saying that there's no champion for the arts in the Welsh Government. Indeed, in a rare intervention this week on the Politics Wales programme, the artistic director for the Wales Millennium Centre, Graeme Farrow, said that the arts sector in Wales was 'in a crisis', but, on the same show, they said that the Deputy Minister was unavailable for comment. Doesn't it say it all about the priorities of the Deputy Minister, one who we know enjoys foreign trips, clocking up a total of 175 domestic journeys in a ministerial car in a year—the most of any Deputy Minister—whilst jetting off across the world following sports teams, including a £30,000 trip to New Zealand, but yet, when the arts is in a crisis in Wales, the Deputy Minister is unavailable for comment and nowhere to be seen. Your role is about far more than just photo opps and ribbon cutting; it's about being a champion for the industry. So, when will you get a grip on the situation, step up and get on with the job?

I'm not even sure that that tirade warrants a response, Llywydd. 

The Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Luke Fletcher. 

Diolch, Llywydd. Ahead of the Welsh Government's most recent budget, the further education sector was briefed by the Government to expect a 3 per cent reduction in apprenticeship funding next year. However, many in the sector contacted me to express their shock to find that the reduction was actually 24.5 per cent. Now, one of the justifications for a reduction was made on the basis that the apprenticeship funding was demand led, and that the demand wasn't there. Again, colleagues in the FE sector have contacted me to say that that isn't the case. So, for the sake of clarity, who's right, and who's wrong?

Choices around the Welsh Government budget have not been finalised. We continue to have trusted conversations across all sectors about the extraordinarily difficult budgetary position that we face—a combination of low growth, high inflation and the reality that our budgets are worth significantly less than at the time of the spending review. And there is no hiding from the fact that all Ministers will have to make incredibly difficult choices. 

This also, of course, has been exacerbated by the loss of former EU funds. And there is only so much that the Welsh Government can do to cover over all of the holes that have been created. I look forward to having further constructive conversations with colleagues across Government, and the wider sectors, about the reality of all our choices. I recognise there'll be concern in every sector when we have to make choices. And it's fair enough for Members to wish to scrutinise and ask questions around that, of course. If people want to put forward alternatives, then that will require moving money from one part of the Government to another, with the additional difficulty that that would cause.

I accept, of course, the budget isn't finalised, but I think there are multiple things here that are quite alarming. In the first instance, given the scale of the challenge we face when it comes to the skills gap, why wasn't take-up within the fund far greater in the first instance? On its justification, the Government said in the budget process that take-up and, therefore, demand was low, but its own figures seem to suggest that take-up is increasing. And figures for the second quarter of 2022 and 2023 saw a 25 per cent increase for apprenticeship level 3 starts. Now, if an increase is seen in the next release of data tomorrow, where does that leave the Government and colleges?

And, secondly, it is clear that, despite the Welsh Government's briefing to the sector, the Government has failed to communicate with the sector about what was coming in this budget. Modelling was done on the figures that the Government provided. This has done nothing but cause anxiety within the further education sector. Now, of course, we hear time and time again from colleges that they are unsure as to exactly what the Government expects of them in delivering courses that will address the skills gap and contribute to a transition to a green economy. So, is this just another example of Government unsuccessfully communicating with the sector and being clear on its strategy? 

I need to be clear: I'm not going to get drawn into commenting on partial leaks. I haven't seen what the Member refers to. But it is important that we're able to have trusted conversations with stakeholders as we go through a budget process. The alternative is that the Welsh Government makes all the choices without any engagement, and then it's a surprise at the point at which the budget is announced, and we need to understand and work through the real terms impact of any choices that we make as well as our unavoidable responsibility to lay a budget that balances. The Government must do that and will do that when the finance Minister lays that budget on behalf of the entire Government.

So, there are really difficult choices. I've indicated previously, when we've gone through the in-year budget choices we had to make, that we didn't have uptake at that point. And I indicated both here and, I think, in scrutiny committee that were we not in the budget position we find ourselves in, then I would be making more efforts to actually want more people to take up those opportunities for skills and apprenticeships. I am doing what is responsible, as an individual Minister and as part of the whole Government, in making sure that we both balance the budget but still maintain the priorities we have.

And so, actually, the choices that we make with the resources we still have will matter even more. And so, my commitment is to carry on investing in the future, even if we're not able to do everything we would have wanted to have done at the start of this Senedd term when, let's remind ourselves, some people said the Welsh Labour offer was modest and not ambitious enough in spending terms, and yet, actually, we find ourselves in a position where those spending choices are even more challenging. So, the supposedly more generous offers made by other parties are simply not achievable.

We will carry on having conversations with the sector. We will talk about how and why this is on the floor today. But, more importantly, we'll talk about how and why we need to be able to have a budget, and we'll carry on investing in parts of our economy and the skills for the future that really can drive the Wales that we want and a modern, fairer, greener, stronger Wales that we all want to see. 

Thank you for the question.

Together with Jobcentre Plus, the Welsh Government has a range of measures in place to support unemployed people into work. For example, the Welsh Government funds both ReAct+ and Communities for Work+ that is delivered by colleagues in local government. Both of these programmes can support people who have been unemployed for less than nine months.

Thank you very much for that response. Obviously, when you launched the new plan for employability and skills last year, a key part of that plan was the commitment to introduce ReAct+. And one of the things that has been quite striking then is that £5.3 million has been cut from the budget in this year for ReAct+. So, can I ask, therefore, what assessment have you made of the impact that might have in terms of young people's ability to access ReAct+, so that they're not reliant on the UK Government's flawed Restart scheme? Because I'm sure you'd agree with me that the reason that you have put forward ReAct+ is that it does seem nonsensical that people have to be unemployed for nine months before they can access help. 

So, ReAct+ covers a range of areas. It's designed to support jobseekers, unemployed people and people who are either at risk of redundancy or have recently been made redundant. For jobseekers and unemployed people, the target is for people aged 16 to 24, so it helps people by trying to deliver more tailored solutions. We’ve had a conversation with the Member for the Rhondda about the work that ReAct+ has been able to do following the closure of UK Windows & Doors.

ReAct+ is, though, a demand-led budget, and part of the reason why there’s been extra room in that budget to help meet the in-year pressures is that we haven’t had the call on the demand budget in terms of the number of people we expected to have to help at the start of the year. Now, that in itself is good news. The danger and the risk is, of course, that if we have significant unemployment events through the rest of this financial year, then that demand-led budget, some of that money has gone into making sure that we can balance our books within this year, and planning ahead for next year. I still think that we’re in a position where, if people are at risk of losing their job, or if they require additional support through ReAct+, we can still help those people, wherever they may be in Wales, within this year.

The challenge comes about the state of the economy as we move forward, and in today’s autumn statement, which I haven’t heard all of, but the Office for Budget Responsibility have downgraded growth assessments across the UK, so that will both mean the economy is likely to still stay flat, and some businesses will grow and others will not succeed. So, we’re still in a very difficult and challenging period and, again, going back to the questions being asked by Luke Fletcher, we still have to live within our means and balance the budget, but the priorities we do then choose will be even more important because there are some things the Government isn’t going to be able to do moving forward. We’ll continue to focus our support in line with our employability plan to help people where there are gaps in Department for Work and Pensions' provision.

Sadly, Minister, ageism within employment is still very much prevalent, with employers often bypassing those with considerable experience in favour of much younger people. This situation is worsened by the fact that people over the age of 50 are more likely to have caring responsibilities, with 12 per cent of men and 16 per cent of women aged 55 to 64 providing informal care that further limits their ability to work. In response to this, the UK Government has announced a £22 million investment in new measures to tackle unemployment amongst the over-50s, and I was delighted to see that this increased support will also see the creation of new 50-plus champions who will work directly with employers to encourage and promote the benefits of employing older workers. All this will dovetail with the midlife MOTs the UK Government has also announced. With this in mind, how is the Welsh Government making the best use of this opportunity and working with business to make sure those jobseekers over the age of 50 are fully aware of the range of positions and opportunities that are available to them? Thank you. 

I recognise that in different parts of the labour market it can be more challenging if you’re a young person seeking work, and in other parts of the labour market people can find the alternative, that if you’re an older worker seeking work, it can be more difficult. I should say I’m not quite in the over-50s category, but that is not far in the distance.

When it comes to the design of support from the UK Government, on the one hand it is positive that there is a recognition of the need to focus support for people who are over 50, but still have a lot of their working life ahead of them, and that’s a positive. Actually, between our officials and the way that Jobcentre Plus is managed locally, there are really good relationships. I know Peter Fox isn’t in the Chamber, but when we talked about issues in his constituency or in Blaenau Gwent or indeed in the Rhondda or Ynys Môn recently, we’ve found, actually, a really constructive local relationship.

We still continue to have disagreements with the Government on the design of how some of that support works, because some of the support is mandatory. For example, if someone is referred to the Restart scheme, it is mandatory that they participate and they’ll be sanctioned if they don't. And whilst I understand the politics of why people talk about conditionality and requiring people to do things, there’s very little evidence that it has a net benefit in getting people into real work opportunities that are suitable for them and their skills. We continue to believe that it is better to recognise that people who are out of work, the great majority of them are very keen to return to the world of work, to understand how we can address the barriers that they have, whether that’s skills, whether it’s travel, whether it’s childcare, to help them into work in a more supportive rather than a more punitive environment. Where we can work with the UK Government we’ll continue to do so.

Thank you. I welcome the Member to the Chamber. Small businesses are an essential part of the Welsh economy, and we are committed to supporting them to start, grow and prosper with dedicated support available through our Business Wales service, Social Business Wales, and the Development Bank of Wales. I look forward to highlighting the role of small businesses in Wales with Members from all parties, I trust, on Small Business Saturday on 2 December. 

Just in case you haven't noticed, Minister, I do turn up to this Chamber on a very regular basis.

Indeed you do. 

Now, this morning, Minister, I had the privilege of sponsoring the Federation of Small Businesses Wales’s small business breakfast briefing and there were several issues that were highlighted to Members about the challenges facing small businesses.

One of the issues that was raised was skills, and you'll be aware of the FSB’s new report, which shows that small employers are less likely to seek advice on skills or recruitment challenges, and that many businesses have limited and often informal links with educational institutions, which results in small businesses developing the skills they need on an ad hoc and fragmented basis. Now, the report calls for better alignment between businesses and skills providers. So, can you tell us what the Welsh Government is doing to build better links between education providers and small businesses in order to create more opportunities for small businesses and indeed their employees?

Thank you for the additional question and I recognise the Member’s regular contributions in the Chamber. I do, though. On the point he raises, we have recently looked at investing in employment bureaus—they’re called different things in different colleges—where there are deliberate links drawn between local businesses and those college students. So, we're then looking at making sure the right skills are there and that they're relevant to the world of work. That also follows on the work that we do with Careers Wales as well.

Part of our challenge is where small businesses have the headspace to be able to look up and think of what they can do in investing in the skills of their own workforce, and looking at where that skills advice is housed and provided. Any business that is looking for where to get advice can go to Business Wales as a one-stop shop to help them navigate through the system. Rather than saying, 'There are a 100 choices, choose the right one', the Business Wales service and Business Wales advice can help people to get to the right point.

We all recognise that investing in the future of your workforce is one of the reasons why other more productive economies or sectors are more successful. So, it's a cultural change, as well as an understanding of how practical support and advice can be provided. So, if any small business is looking at this, then I hope they'll take up the offer of support that is there through Business Wales, including links they can have with local, further education providers and others. And I look forward to talking more about small businesses over the next week, when I launch our reshaping of the economic mission, which will, of course, address matters around skills and indeed small businesses.

As the Minister knows, reinforced autoclaved aerated concrete has been found in the roof of Bridgend indoor market, which then had to close immediately, and has hugely impacted many of the small businesses there. Bridgend County Borough Council has been working with the traders and the National Market Traders Federation to support the market traders and help them get up and running again as soon as possible.

I'm pleased to say that Bakestones bakery—the best Welsh cakes in Bridgend—[Interruption.] They are. It has gone into a new unit and is very happy. Financial settlements have been offered to all the traders now and 90 per cent have now been accepted. And the council has also rented a unit in the adjacent Rhiw shopping centre and is setting up for about nine traders to operate from there, and be fully operational by the end of the week.

The council has also appointed WSP to provide the next level of surveys and next steps, and I'm sorry to say that it is likely that a full roof replacement programme will be recommended. So, what help can the Welsh Government give to BCBC with this unexpected and unwelcome burden, particularly at a time when council budgets are stretched and service demand is increasing? Diolch.

I had a very constructive meeting on 23 October with the leader of Bridgend council and his officials. And it was a joint meeting with your office, as you'd both requested a meeting at the same time, so we were able to set out what we're doing then. And I'm happy to confirm publicly that we're looking to carry on working with the council. I think they've been really proactive in wanting to make sure that businesses can survive, and the additional relief they provided. Having somewhere that is nearby, so you're not interrupting shoppers’ patterns, but then understanding the future of the building. And so, if a full roof replacement is recommended, there are real questions about what the freeholder of the building is prepared to do, what the council is prepared to do, and then with a practical plan of how the Welsh Government can carry on supporting.

Because I recognise this is part of the balance of what makes a successful town centre. How do you have enough footfall with retail operating as part of that, with residential operating as part of that, to make sure that you have life in the town centre that keeps on attracting people to it? And that will be especially important for the market traders. I can see one of the Members for Newport in front of you, and actually a successful market redevelopment can really add to the life of a town and city centre. So, there are opportunities with what market traders provide. And I look forward to carrying on that constructive and hopefully positive conversation with the leadership of Bridgend council, and, indeed, with your own engagement as the constituency Member.

Yes, and I welcome the Member to the Chamber this afternoon. The Welsh Government investment—

I just need to point out that it's for me to welcome Members to the Chamber. Many Members here are frequent visitors and do not need to be welcomed every time they're in the—.

Indeed, it's great to see the Member in the Chamber this afternoon. Welsh Government investment underpins the Cardiff capital region city deal and our shared priorities with local government in the region; one example is our investment in the south Wales metro. We will carry on actively exploring opportunities to co-invest in our economic future.

I genuinely don't have a vote in the Labour leadership bid that's coming up, Minister—[Laughter.]—but it is nice to see you here today, because I didn't see you yesterday. Minister, I recently visited the Aberthaw power station, or the former power station at Aberthaw, which has, obviously, just been recently acquired by Cardiff city deal. This wasn't part of the business case that was put forward by the bid team to secure the city deal that, obviously, the Welsh Government and UK Government, along with local authorities, sponsor. The ambition for the site is great, and it was good to see that, but there is a need to bring that ambition forward and make it jump off the screens and the slides that are shown in the presentation to become a reality. What assessment have you, along with your officials, made, given the considerable investment that's going to be required to bring that site back into beneficial use, that the ambition that the city deal has for that site will become a reality?

I think part of the point about the reason why the region invested in purchasing Aberthaw was a bet not just on the immediate term but on the future, because of the significance of the power connections that exist there and the opportunities for energy deployment on and around the site. So, there's a significant development opportunity. What we need to see is the amount of investment that will come in. Some of that will involve UK Government choices, of whatever colour the current or future UK Government is. It will also involve engagement with the private sector about how to develop around there, and the ongoing choices about not just energy generation but then transmission as well.

I do think it's understandable why leaders of different shades have agreed that this is the right choice to make. Of course, when the region were talking about this, your group colleague Peter Fox was still part of the region, when they started talking about whether they wanted to do this. So, I and, indeed, the UK Government, because we co-fund the city deal, are looking at what they're likely to do, as well as the other projects within the city deal, and making sure that those other investments that are now starting to be made at an increasing pace deliver against the objectives of generating additional return to the economy with additional jobs on a long-term basis. So, we will carry on assessing not just the purchase but then the plans around it, about what could be a significant investment in the future of our economy.

Jenny Rathbone. Don't feel obliged, just because I've called your name—you don't have to take the opportunity.

Apologies.

I'll move on to question 6, Jayne Bryant.

I thank Jayne Bryant for that question. The impact of the cost-of-living crisis continues to be felt in the sport sector. The Welsh Government is providing additional financial support through Sport Wales to our national governing bodies to assist with their bespoke interventions.

Thank you for that answer, Deputy Minister. Last week, I was contacted by a local rugby club in my constituency, who have just been hit with a huge increase in their energy bills. They've told me that their energy bills will rise from £900 a month to £1,750 a month. For comparison, this club have said that the energy bills will have increased from £5,000 in 2022 to just over £19,000 in 2024. This is absolutely eye-watering, and this is an incredible difference. As a smaller grass-roots sports club, they just don't have the resources to find the difference, and they've told me that this price increase could see the club cease to exist by August 2024, which would be an incredible shame, because this club really does hold a bright future.

Deputy Minister, we all know the positive benefits local clubs have within our communities. What conversations have the Welsh Government had with the UK Government regarding energy price tariffs, and what more can the Welsh Government do to help support clubs through these really difficult times to ensure their continued presence?

Can I thank Jayne Bryant for that supplementary and, actually, put on record my acknowledgement of the severe difficulties that increased energy costs continue to inflict across sport sectors and across our economy as a whole? It's of particular concern for our grass-roots sporting clubs that don't have access to the kinds of funds that they need, which you've very clearly set out in your question. Again, I don't want this to be a glib answer, but I think we need to be very clear about where the responsibility for these things lies. As we know and has been said many times, the main policy levers around energy pricing lie with the UK Government when it comes to responding to issues like that. And they really do need to use those levers that are at their disposal to take further urgent steps to target gaps in support, particularly for boosting organisations and businesses such as grass-roots sports clubs, for all the reasons that you've set out.

Welsh Ministers, including the Minister for Economy, and officials have made repeated representations to UK Government Ministers regarding the impact of high energy costs on businesses, on the public and on the third sector. I haven't had the chance to catch up with the budget yet, but I hope that the Chancellor will be using his autumn statement today to help alleviate many of those pressures on households and businesses. Whilst we're unable to support with energy costs, we do have support available to help with energy-saving measures. The Welsh Government's energy service provides technical support and guidance for public sector and community organisations to help them become more energy efficient, and that's all part of our decarbonisation programme as well. We provide interest-free loans to public sector organisations throughout Wales through the funding programme to help with those energy efficiency measures. We've also advocated for greater incentives for business to invest in energy-efficient measures, and to that end, we're supporting the Development Bank of Wales's green business loan scheme.

I think, just going back to sport, it's probably important, again, to put on the record that Sport Wales this year made the unusual move to support energy costs via their energy savings grant in recognition of the difficulties that grass-roots sports clubs are experiencing, and that has allowed clubs to access up to £25,000 for energy efficiency upgrades such as solar panel installations, and so on. That funding for this year has ended, but I'm hopeful that it will reopen again in the next financial year. Of course, there is also the Welsh Government-funded Be Active fund, which is there to support grass-roots sport. So, I'm hoping that we will get some good news from the Chancellor today, and once we have a better perspective on our own financial position in response to all of that, then we will be in a better position to talk more longer term about the kind of support that we can get, within our devolved competence, to more grass-roots organisations.

Thank you for the question.

Since I heard the devastating news about UK Windows & Doors, I and my officials have been working closely with key partners to achieve the best possible outcome for all those concerned. This includes the local authority, the Department for Work and Pension, Jobcentre Plus, Business Wales and others, and, indeed, the engagement we've had with both of the constituency Members. This includes ensuring that the workers can access the full range of support that is available to them to try to secure alternative work.

Thank you, Minister. Job losses are always met with fear and anxiety, especially on this occasion, with the sheer number of employees affected and with such little notice provided. Luckily, the Welsh Government's ReAct+ scheme and the advice day hosted by partners in the Welsh Government, the UK Government, Rhondda Cynon Taf County Borough Council and local employers shortened that window of fear and anxiety, with over 250 live job vacancies filled. From conversations with workers and Teneo, it's my understanding that redundancies are being received with no hiccups or delays. I'd like to ask the Minister if he's received any further information regarding the welfare fund promised to workers and if there is any further update regarding the future of the sites across Rhondda.

Thank you for those two questions. On the legacy fund, as you know, it's something that we've discussed with administrators. There's been an ask, and my understanding is that the shareholders have asked the administrators to consider distributing a legacy fund. We're not, as yet, in a position to understand whether administrators will do that, or their willingness to do that, because they need to complete the process of the administration to understand whether there are assets to be able to distribute.

That does come back to your second point about the sites. Unfortunately, the administrators have not received a bid to purchase one or more of the sites as a going concern. That means they're therefore looking to sell off plant and machinery, and it also means they're looking at the future of the sites. We think that these are sites that should have employment use in the future. They're marked in the development plan for that purpose, and we think there are opportunities for new businesses to come into those sites. So, we remain interested in working with the council and, indeed, those that have now got responsibility for working to sell those sites to understand what the possible future might mean. That then would come back to whether there are assets to distribute in a legacy fund as well.

We're also continuing to work with the council, because the jobs fair that was undertaken was led by the council, and over 300 former UK Windows & Doors people attended. There were more than 250 vacancies from a range of employers. So, we're looking again to see if there is another opportunity to either have a significant individual event to try to draw people together who have not secured alternative work, or whether, actually, more distributive means of information in the community are a better way forward. But we'll continue to maintain an interest in those sites and what it means for current and potential future employees in the Rhondda.

Question 8 [OQ60295] is withdrawn. 

Thank you. I met, at their request, with the leader of Bridgend County Borough Council and the constituency Member for Bridgend and Porthcawl on 23 October to understand what more the Welsh Government can do to support the council on this matter. My officials have also been engaging with the council and traders since the closure to offer further advice and support.

Diolch am yr ateb, Gweinidog. I've been speaking with stall holders now since the initial announcement of the closure two months ago, and the response to the level of support from BCBC and the Welsh Government has been very mixed. Some, of course, are very grateful; others are feeling left to find their own way. We've heard mention of Bakestones today; well, Anne, the owner of Bakestones, said that she was practically left to it. Another stall holder, who wished to remain anonymous, said, 'I feel let down and pushed aside. They don't care about us. This was our livelihood, our business—gone in minutes'. So, in response to stall holders, and, of course, taking note of your response to Sarah Murphy, what exactly is the Government's intervention in this? Because that wasn't clear from the Minister's response, past conversations with BCBC, who, ultimately, will need financial support to deal with this. 

Part of the issue here, in all honesty, is that because the council get advice that means they need to close the building, that produces an immediate event for businesses. They won't all have insurance to cover them adequately for their losses. So you're left in a position where the council can either say, 'We don't have a responsibility, we're only a landlord in this endeavour', and then you know that businesses and jobs will go. The council have chosen not to do that, and they've been proactive in looking for alternative premises and, indeed, in providing rates relief and the hiring of commercial fridges and freezers, for example. What we then need to do, and as we have done, is to make sure that business advice is available for each of those individual businesses in their circumstances to understand that there is additional support, and those are, understandably, bespoke conversations. As the council come forward to look at the current position with the current venue for the market that is closed, we will understand more about what it would cost to resolve that building, or whether that is, in fact, an option, and we could then have a longer term conversation about what additional support we may or may not be able to provide.

We're working, though, in an environment where the reliefs that we have available are being deployed by the council. We're working in an environment where business support and advice is being provided, including advice on potential grant or skills investment support, as well. We'll then need to understand: is there more that we can do with the council, when, as you indicated in your earlier question, the Welsh Government budget is not in a position where there is additional money that is free and looking for a home? We have real pressure on our budgets. I'm committed to working with the council to understand what we can do together in a way that makes it easy for those business owners and the jobs that are attached to them to try to make sure we provide as unified an answer where it is as simple as possible to access any support, and recognising, as I said earlier, that a thriving market stall environment can be a really positive aspect of what a thriving town centre could and should look like. So, we'll carry on having a conversation with the council and we'll then make decisions on the back of that.

Thank you for the question.

Wales enjoys a strong relationship with Japan, with many significant economic and cultural ties. The relationship is important for Wales on all levels—economic, social and cultural. Japan is our second-highest investing market—thousands of Welsh jobs that are reliant on Japanese-headquartered companies located in Wales, including, of course, in the Member's constituency.

Indeed. And if I can take the Minister back to a recent visit that he made there, where there were Japanese companies from all over Wales—every part of Wales: mid, west, north and south—who were gathered together to not only see the work that is going on in Sony, but actually to network together as well, and the importance of relationship building for connections between Japan and Wales is crucial.

So, what I want to ask you is: how do we build on that for the next 50 years? Because good inward investment of that type, that bases its manufacturing and design and production and its research and its innovation here in Wales, is part of the key to our economic future, alongside growing indigenous businesses, because these investors also have a supply chain that works with them as well. So, how can Welsh Government help us build on those relationships and make it even stronger over the next decade and the next 50 years?

Thank you for the question and I well remember the recent event, with 14 different Japanese companies and the Japanese ambassador was here for the event as well, and so it is a really positive milestone, recognising the difference the Japanese investment has made, and it does show that inward investment is part of our economic past and our future as well, and you do not have to choose between either the foundation and everyday economy or searching for inward investment. And the point the Member makes is right, thinking about the significance of the supply chain. So, we will carry on investing real-time energy and effort in the relationship with Japanese companies that are here today and those that may be here in the future. We’ll carry on in our engagement with the Government of Japan and indeed some of the links we have in Oita, for example, within a specific area where there are real cultural and educational links as well.

And it’s worth pointing out the continued investment that some of those companies make: Sony, we talked about in the Member's constituency; Panasonic recently announced significant investment in how they're decarbonising their production in their facilities as well. So, there are lots of areas where Japanese investment is part of the story we want to tell. It’s very much a part of the future, and I look forward to playing my part in making sure that it's a successful one.

I'm grateful to Huw Irranca-Davies for raising that question here this afternoon. Minister, you mentioned north Wales, where Japanese companies have a level of investment there, and you'll be fully aware of the significance of advanced manufacturing, particularly in my region in north Wales. And I'm sure you were pleased to hear today the Chancellor's announcement of an investment zone for north-east Wales in Wrexham and Flintshire, and I'm grateful for your support on that as well.

With that particular zone in mind, I'm keen to understand if there are any early conversations being held with perhaps Japanese companies, or any other companies from around the world to invest in that part of the world, so we can see those jobs that we're so desperate to see.

Well, I did hear part of the autumn statement and I did hear the Chancellor refer to a second investment zone centred on Wrexham and Flintshire. I believe there's also been agreement, following a conversation with the levelling-up Minister, to the south-east investment zone as well, following the announcement I made to the Chamber last week. So, I think that is positive news.

When we look at advanced manufacturing in north-east Wales, there are a range of players, including Japanese-owned businesses—Toyota being a very obvious example. And we've got a good relationship with Toyota, and Unite as the recognised union on that site. We've helped with investment on that site to secure further jobs and indeed decarbonise their production. We look forward to doing more with them, because Toyota don't just have an interest in, of course, car manufacturing; they're looking at alternative fuels, they're looking at electric, they're looking at the potential for fuel cells as well from hydrogen. There's a lot more for us to do with them and other companies as well. And indeed Toyota—maybe referring back to the first question—may be a future host for a networking event for Japanese companies in the future, so I look forward to carrying on a really constructive and positive relationship with them and indeed wider businesses in the north-east of Wales.

Thank you to the Minister and Deputy Minister.

The next item will be questions to the Minister for Health and Social Services and the first question is from Peter Fox.

I have acknowledged that access to dentistry is not where we would like it to be. The changes we are making mean NHS dentistry is becoming more accessible to those who have historically struggled to gain access. Over 250,000 new patients have received treatment since April 2022.

Thank you, Minister, for that answer. Time and time again, Members raise concerns about dental services, and you often repeat that your new contracts are increasing the number of first-time NHS patients. However, this is to the detriment of both dental services and the Welsh public, and distorts the reality of a service that is on its knees. A practice in my constituency has recently reached out to highlight that, as a result of the new contract, they are forced into a position where thousands of existing patients are unable to even be considered for recall appointments. Because of this, the practice is now faced with a clawback of £155,000. This is not an exception to the rule, this is the rule, due to the lack of long-term thinking. Further, dentists now pay for their lab fees personally, but for complex lab work, like dentures, the NHS remuneration does not cover this cost, leaving the dentist out of pocket. It is no wonder, then, that practices are having to increase private work in order to carry on providing what NHS work they can. Minister, what measures are you taking to specifically address recall appointment wait times?

Thanks very much. Well, I won't comment specifically on that particular case, but what I can tell you is that we have very deliberately developed contracts in terms of dental services where we are focusing attention on the most urgent, but also on the preventative aspects of dentistry, and on focusing attention on people who have had difficulty in accessing NHS dentistry in the past. Now, what that does mean is that there is likely to be an impact on those who are waiting for recall. But as I've said in this Chamber before, in that sense, I think it is important that there's recognition that we're following the National Institute for Health and Care Excellence guidance on this, and the NICE guidance suggests that, if you have healthy teeth, you don't need a recall every six months. In fact, you can go up to two years without having a recall. That is what NICE is saying, and you ask us to follow NICE most of the time, so I think it's really important that we are led by clinicians in this area. We recognise that there is only a certain amount of money and we do have to target that, and that's why we are following that particular approach.

I think it is probably worth saying, in relation to clawback just generally, it's a very different situation and agreement that we have with dentists compared to GPs, for example. The situation is that we pay dentists in terms of this contract in advance. That doesn't happen anywhere else. So, obviously, if they can't reach the contract that they agreed to, then I think you in particular, who want us to be responsible stewards of the public funds, would want us to understand that, if they are not actually providing the service that they signed up to, then it's a responsibility on us as a Government to make sure that we go and get that money back. 

Last month, Hayden Dental in Carmarthen said that they would bring their NHS service to an end at the end of the year. That follows very similar developments to the west in Whitland, to the east in Llandeilo and to the south in Cross Hands and so on and so forth. So, does the Minister accept that the fact that all of these dental surgeries have ceased their NHS service means that it'll make it even more difficult to attract people to tender for a new contract because of the shortage of provision? Do you have the data now? You mentioned that you hoped to have a central register at a national level—do you have that data, which can focus on what is happening on the ground? And if it does confirm what dentists and service users are saying locally, that there is a crisis, would you be willing to meet the elected members and the health board in the area to find a solution?

Well, I do accept that certain areas of Wales have handed back more contracts than others—Hywel Dda is one of those areas, where seven contracts have been handed back. And what happens then is that we go back out to re-contract, and what I'm pleased to announce is that four contracts have already been issued and that there is interest for Cross Hands, Llandeilo, south Ceredigion and north Pembrokeshire too. So, that process of finding new contractors is already under way and there is interest. And what has happened is that there are three contracts that have now been handed back—Carmarthen, Whitland and Haverfordwest—and they will cease providing the service by the end of the year. But what we have said is that that central register must be in place by the end of the year. We haven't reached the end of the year as of yet, so I do very much hope that we will be able to look at those details by the end of the year. And, of course, you will be aware that we also provided an additional £5,000 to encourage people to train in rural areas.

Minister, in terms of the Bridges dental practice in Caldicot, I met with the partners there this week and they do feel very strongly that their long-standing commitment as a practice to NHS provision is being put at risk by the new NHS dental services contract, and that they do not feel that they're able to provide what they consider to be a proper standard of care for existing NHS patients while meeting the requirements for new patients and what they're required to do for those new patients. They believe that this view is very widespread among NHS dentists, not just in their area, but across Wales, and they believe that that new NHS dental services contract isn't working as it was expected to and we will see a reducing level of NHS provision as a result. So, there does seem to be a groundswell of opinion from across Wales, Minister, that's very, very concerned about the sort of level of NHS provision that we're likely to see going forward, if that new contract isn't carefully assessed and perhaps adjusted.

Thanks very much, John. And as I say, I don't want to talk about any specific surgery, but what I can say is that, obviously, we're now in further negotiations about the next iteration of the contract. You know, I don't think we're going to apologise for the fact that we want to focus on urgent cases and on cases where people have had it really difficult to access dentistry for a long time, but what I can tell you is, actually, although there does seem quite a lot of noise around this, 80 per cent of dental contract values are operating under a variation arrangement that includes that requirement to see new patients for routine and urgent care. So, people are signing up to these contracts. There is a bit of noise in the system, of course, because it does mean change, and when you prioritise one group, then, obviously, a different group is going to be deprioritised. But, you know, we went into this with our eyes open, we are following NICE guidance on this, and what we're doing is changing a model that's been there for a long time. So, I understand the frustrations, but, as I say, we're continuing those discussions with people, but I think it is important to understand that, actually, perhaps people were being recalled very, very frequently when there wasn't a need for it.

Support for people living with long COVID remains a priority. To date, we have invested £18.3 million to develop and expand Adferiad-funded services in every health board in Wales.

Thank you for that response, Minister.

I believed that—. Well, it is believed that long COVID is caused by blood clotting becoming hyperactive and creating micro clots in the small blood vessels resulting in a lack of oxygen reaching organs in the body. One way of treating patients is by using a treatment known as heparin-induced extracorporeal lipoprotein apheresis, thankfully known by the far snappier acronym of HELP, which, like dialysis, removes substances from the blood. Clinics in both Cyprus and Germany are using such machines to treat long COVID and a HELP machine exists in Llandough Hospital, used to treat patients with inherited high cholesterol in the lipid department set up by my constituent, Dr Stephanie Matthews, some 30 years ago. So, will you commit to investigating the feasibility of expanding access to such a machine and support calls for larger control studies into this treatment, which could support patients with long COVID across Wales? Diolch, Llywydd.

Well, thanks very much. The fact is that we're still learning about long COVID and what causes it. So, there are lots and lots of different reasons and the way people suffer is very, very different. So, what is important is that we adapt according to the needs of the individual patient and that’s why we’ve gone down a different route here in Wales, where we are having multi-professional, multi-skills clinics where people can be sent to the most appropriate support for them. And I’m sure that would include examples like the one you gave in Llandough. The fact is that we have increased the amount of money we have given to long COVID support to £8 million. Anything that will have to be done will have to be done within the context of that £8 million, and, obviously, we’ll let clinicians determine how that should be balanced.

Questions now from the party spokespeople. The Conservatives' spokesperson, Russell George.

Diolch, Llywydd. Minister, in November last year, ITV Wales reported evidence of a number of significant care failings within Swansea Bay University Health Board’s maternity services. Prior to the ITV documentary, the Welsh Government told Robert and Sian Channon, who first blew the whistle on serious failings, based on their own experiences, that a review of serious incidents and complaints had taken place last year. The family then received two freedom of information responses from the NHS Wales Delivery Unit, which confirmed that a review had not taken place. And the family now, as well as myself, are viewing internal e-mails between Welsh Government officials that confirm that no review was ever carried out; merely, Welsh Government sought advice from officials. Mr Channon is in the gallery today as well. So, why, Minister, did the Welsh Government mislead families involved? Why was this review never commissioned or carried out and why did Welsh Government say it had been completed when no review had been undertaken in the first place?

Well, what I can tell you is that we take any issues relating to maternity failings very, very seriously. That’s why we have looked in particular at what we could learn from some of the challenges that we saw in Cwm Taf Morgannwg University Health Board. We’ve looked at that learning, we’ve had groups of experts go in to try and help us with how do we tighten up systems. There are challenges around maternity, some of them to do with the staffing areas, and we’re looking at, for example, including and introducing mechanisms whereby people are taken in and supported in two intakes during the year at universities, not just one. Because what happens is, towards the end of the year, we don’t have enough people on the wards, because some people retire and whatever. So, we need people to come out twice a year for those maternity wards. So, my understanding is that some of the issues in relation to Swansea in particular were around staff cover, but, obviously, this is an issue for the health board.

Well, Minister, I appreciate your answer, and there was a lot in that answer that was helpful, but you didn't, of course, answer any of the questions that I put to you. And the issue here is that this is not just about the health board, because Welsh Government officials were involved in this process. That is what the results of the FOI responses demonstrate. And the concern here is that Welsh Government officials had told the Channon family, and other families and ITV Wales reporters, that a review had taken place and had been completed, when that actually was not the case at all. And that is the issue that is being raised today, which I hope that you will answer following my next question.

But what the evidence shows is that, despite serious concerns—. Senior Welsh Government officials had concerns in November of last year, but no appropriate action followed. And further to this, I have read the result of an FOI from Audit Wales, in which they, through an audit risk assessment in February of this year, identified serious problems with maternity services in Swansea. The same FOI release shows Healthcare Inspectorate Wales—shows that staff feedback from their unannounced inspection in September was some of the worst they had ever seen, which of course does, I appreciate, relate to the points that you made in your first answer to me. Both of these raise serious concerns, I would suggest, over how the Welsh Government and other bodies in Wales have dealt with the maternity services issues in Swansea Bay. In fact, the Welsh Government have previously stated that there are no concerns, based on a report, a report that was never actually carried out. So, the question is Minister: do you think that Swansea Bay maternity services are currently safe? And why, to date, has the Welsh Government done nothing to escalate intervention in this service?

Well, I can assure you that my officials are keeping a very close eye on the situation in Swansea. We are very aware of the situation of what's gone on in this particular circumstance as well. That's why we are paying a lot of attention to what we need to do to improve in particular the staffing issue in Swansea, as we are with other maternity departments across Wales. So, my officials are in touch with the health board in particular on this issue of how we improve maternity outcomes in Swansea. We know that, if you get anything in relation to maternity issues wrong, the consequences can be devastating, and that's why it makes absolute sense for us to focus the way that we have done in Cwm Taf Morgannwg, take that learning and spread it across Wales. And I can assure you that we've actually put significant additional funding in to try and raise the standards, not just in Cwm Taf Morgannwg but also in Swansea and across the rest of Wales.

There are around 300 incidents—300 incidents—under investigation in Swansea Bay alone at the current time. There are obviously some serious safety concerns. It is clear that the Welsh Government's response to these repeated failings coming out of the health board has been totally inadequate. It looks like to me that there has been delay, there's been dither and there's been failure to properly investigate. And I appreciate you mentioned about working with the health board, but I would suggest also that you need to investigate your own department to find out why—we still have no answers to my original questions—misinformation was presented to the families and to media in this regard. And I would say, most importantly of all, that this issue here is about getting it right now. There have been those past mistakes, they need to be investigated, but we need to make sure that these kinds of issues don't happen again. So, Minister, with all the evidence being presented, and with the heartache that has been brought upon the families affected, will you commit today to a full independent inquiry into maternity services in the Swansea Bay health board, and will you of course apologise to the Channon family and other families who have been affected and misled?

We delegate responsibility in relation to health to health boards, so it is their responsibility to carry out and to make sure that those services are safe. And the fact is that, obviously, we have a responsibility then as the Welsh Government to make sure that they—[Interruption.]—that they meet the standards that are expected of them. And that's why we have things like the NHS Wales Executive, to make sure that they adhere to the kinds of standards and commitments that we want them to adhere to.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Sioned Williams.

Diolch, Llywydd. One of the projects that the Children, Young People and Education Committee inquiry into services for care-experienced children looked at was the Baby and Me project, developed in partnership by Barnardo's Cymru and Newport City Council. This innovative project provides intense pre and postnatal support for families where there's a risk that the baby could be taken into care at birth, bringing together health, social services and parenting support into one holistic model that has delivered excellent results.

One of the recommendations within the committee's report was that Welsh Government should ensure universal nationwide access to successful early intervention edge of care preventative services, such as Barnardo's Baby and Me. You accepted this recommendation in part, Deputy Minister, accepting and acknowledging the positive work being undertaken by edge of care services, such as Barnardo's Baby and Me, and the benefit these programmes have for new parents, including care-experienced young people. You said you'd review the evaluation of projects like Baby and Me when deciding on next steps and future roll-out.

So, as Baby and Me has already been through a full evaluation, and you've committed to reduce the number of babies and young children entering the care system, could you outline what review has been done by the Welsh Government of Baby and Me and when a decision will be made in regard to committing to roll-out?

Thank you, Sioned Williams, for that question. And I want to put on record my acknowledgement of what a hugely important contribution Baby and Me does give in keeping young children and babies out of care. I'm hugely supportive of it, and I visited it in Newport and saw it actually operating. So, I know that it is very, very effective. And I think it's really important that third sector organisations and local government come together—and the health boards—to give a holistic and effective intervention. I'm totally in favour of partnerships working like that, and I think the model is great. 

We are continuing to engage with the third sector and local authorities to support new and innovative projects and pilot ways of working together. And in respect of edge of care services, since 2017-18, the Welsh Government has provided an additional £9 million recurrent funding to local authorities, which is now in the revenue support grant. Five million pounds of this was specifically to establish or extend existing edge of care services in all local authorities across Wales. So, that provision is already in the RSG. But, in terms of a review, and how we can move forward, obviously, we are in a very difficult financial situation, as you are aware, so that is really colouring all our thinking, really, at this particular stage. But this is certainly an issue, and a very important issue, and these are the sorts of projects that we want to develop. 

Diolch, Dirprwy Weinidog. It is worrying to hear that, because, obviously, preventative services and programmes like this that work are the epitome of invest-to-save, aren't they, especially when we're thinking about the cost, in both human and financial terms, of children entering the care system. 

Another issue that same committee inquiry raised was concerns around when looked-after children are placed out of their home local authority area. When placing a child in care, every effort, of course, should be made to ensure the placement is in the child's home area to ensure continuity of education, services and social networks et cetera. But, of course, in some instances, it's in the child's best interests to be placed outside of their home local authority area. In their submission to the committee's inquiry, the Children's Society highlighted the fact that regulations for placing children in another local authority area are not being followed consistently across Wales, and that information-sharing practices, specifically, between local authorities are varied and inconsistent. These are the types of protocols and information that need to be shared to make sure that important information about those children is shared, so they can be properly supported. And, of course, without that happening, it can increase the risk of both unsuccessful placements and children not receiving the right support if they face risks. This was also raised seven years ago in the children's commissioner's report 'The Right Care', and the ministerial advisory group for looked-after children legacy report of 2021 states the development of practice guidance on out-of-area and cross-border placements was a priority, although this practice guidance has still not been published to date. 

So, as part of its plans to reform children's social care, how will Welsh Government ensure that important information is shared more consistently between local authorities and other key partners when looked-after children need to be placed in different local authority areas? Do you envisage work on this issue resulting in practice guidance, as stated by the ministerial advisory group, or will it take shape in some other form?

We very strongly support children being placed as near to their home as possible, and part of the plan of the Government's transformation of children's services is, first of all, to have fewer children coming into care. That is our primary aim, except, of course, when it's absolutely essential for them to come in for safety reasons. But we do feel that children should be placed near their home for all the reasons that you've said—being close to parents, being close to education and keeping their friends—and that's what children have said to us; this is what they want. So, we hope we're going to move towards a situation where this will happen much less, but it is inevitable it will happen sometimes. And, in terms of the practice guidance, I will certainly look at that. 

We are anticipating a very challenging winter for key health and social care services. Health boards and partners have developed integrated plans to enable resilient services, as far as possible, and to mitigate the concurrent risks presented by changing demand as a consequence of the winter period.

Thank you, Minister. Two weeks ago, you gave a statement in response to a topical question around the pressures at the University Hospital of Wales's A&E department, where a 'black incident', I think it was called, which is the major escalation policy that health boards bring into play when A&E departments are under pressure— . Are you in a position to update us as to what improvements, what additional resources have been put into place so that any such further changes in the status at the A&E department, as we go further into the winter months, are able to accommodate an uptake in numbers of patients presenting at that department? It is the largest A&E department in the whole of Wales, but that doesn't make it immune from these winter pressures, and obviously it is a source of great concern to both staff and patients that the conditions that they faced two weeks ago don't end up being a common theme through the winter months.

Thanks very much. Well, we know that the main cause there was the problem of delayed transfers of care and the build-up over the weekend, and that's part of the reason why people couldn't move through the system. It's not a new problem, but it is a problem that, obviously, will perhaps become more acute as more people, in particular, are facing respiratory issues going into winter. So, that's something that we're very, very concerned about—the increase always, when it gets colder, in respiratory issues. So, a lot of work is being done on delayed transfers of care. One of the key areas is the delay in assessments. So, one of the things that Cardiff is doing, alongside other health boards across Wales, is introducing a trusted assessor system, so that, rather than just waiting for somebody from the council to come and assess, they have a system whereby people from the health board can actually make that assessment as well, instead of the council, and that has improved the situation over the course of the past few months. But we've got more to do in that space, I think, to make sure that we see people moving through the system quicker, so that when they go into hospital we can get them out as fast as we can and give them that support in the community.

The other thing that Cardiff will be taking advantage of is the fact that we've now put this Further Faster money into the system. That is about £8.5 million extra this winter to increase the support in the community around community nursing. And what that means is that it will be easier to send people home and know that that support will be there. But, even more importantly, we want to put that support in before they come into hospital, so they're not coming into hospital in the first place. That's where people want to be.

Well, we all remember the huge pressures on our health services last year. Recently, we heard Judith Paget, the chief executive of NHS Wales, saying that she expects the winter pressures this year to be similar to those experienced last year. We, therefore, need to show a clear willingness to learn lessons. But, in failing to publish breach exemption figures in your waiting times statistics, the Government's shown a complete inability to listen and to learn from what the RCN and workers in the health service have been saying for a very long time. Indeed, earlier today, you said in your response to Peter Fox that it was important that we—. What did you say?

—'important that we are led by clinicians'—

—and that we listen to those clinicians. Those were your very words. The same is true in this case. Do you therefore acknowledge that the lack of transparency here is having an impact on the ability of health services to plan effectively for the winter, and that it's now time for us to scrap these breach exemptions?

Diolch yn fawr. We do have a programme called 'Six Goals for Urgent and Emergency Care', and that is led by clinicians. We're asking them what are the priorities. They've been helping us build that programme over the past couple of years. We've put considerable funding into that, following what the clinicians are advising us—so, £25 million this year and £25 million last year. What that means is that we have more same-day emergency care centres this year compared to last year. We've got 24 now across Wales. None of those existed two years ago. We have urgent primary care centres. Again, we have 30 per cent more activity happening this year compared to last year. When it comes to the situation in terms of how we count people in emergency departments, we are in dialogue with the royal college about how that should happen and what should happen. As I said before, we'd already started a discussion on what a quality statement for emergency departments should look like, and part of that is going to be looking at how we should be counting. But, let's be absolutely clear, if we count in a different way, we won't be able to compare with other parts of the United Kingdom.

Minister, one of the ways that we can reduce winter pressures on our NHS is to ensure that the people who are most susceptible to respiratory illnesses are vaccinated. It's a remarkable feat that more than 1.2 million vaccinations have been delivered so far this season in Wales, and I want to pay tribute to all involved in delivering this. But I am concerned that younger adults in clinical risk groups have been slower to come forward to be vaccinated. Minister, what interventions are being made to encourage eligible people to receive their vaccinations, to protect their health and to prevent pressure on other NHS services this winter?

Thanks very much, Vikki, and you're quite right—part of our preparation for this winter is making sure that people have that opportunity to be vaccinated. I'm really delighted to see that over 80 per cent of people in our care homes have been vaccinated. We've had a really good response from the over-75s, but, as you've pointed out, we've had quite a disappointing response from those people who are in a clinical risk area. That is very worrying, because obviously they're the ones who are most likely to be using the services of the NHS over winter if they do have respiratory issues. So, I would encourage them to come forward. We are doing significant amounts of work with our health boards to try and get to those people. The other group of people who are not really taking up the opportunities, and we'd like them to, is NHS workers and care staff. They are not nearly where they should be, and we would appeal for them to take up that opportunity, because this is one of the best ways that we can protect ourselves this winter. We will put support in place. We are making these vaccines available. You all know about the financial pressures we're under. But people have got to come with us on this journey, and people have also got to help themselves on this journey. We can offer it up, but really people need to step through the door and help us out.

Minister, last Friday I was invited to meet with the pharmacy team at Princess of Wales Hospital in Cwm Taf Morgannwg health board by the Royal Pharmaceutical Society Wales, and I just want to say a huge 'thank you' to the whole of the team. They're absolutely incredible, dedicated, expert, skilled. There are around 70 members of staff working constantly to get the medication out to all the wards and all of the patients, and also get them ready for discharge. So, in every hospital, they're just such a vital part of making sure that winter pressures don't overwhelm all the services. The team are always innovating, looking at ways to improve their service. One of the issues that they raised with me was that, at the moment, if somebody is prescribed 40mg of a drug but they don't have 40mg tablets and they only have 20mg, they can't just give them two packs of 20mg. They have to go back to, usually, their GP and go through the whole prescribing process again, which obviously takes time and just seems daft, honestly. So, I was just wondering if there has been any communication with UK Government to encourage them to amend the Human Medicines Regulations so pharmacists can make those minor amendments that don't require a therapeutic substitution, so that prescriptions can be dispensed without the requirement to recontact the prescriber. Diolch.

Thanks very much. Well, as you know, most of the medicines that we procure is via the UK Government, but what we do have is a digital medicines transformation programme that we're undertaking, and that's not just for primary care, which we'll be talking about later on this afternoon, but also in secondary care. I was really pleased to see the incredible work that's being done in secondary care in relation to making sure that there is a central repository, partly, for all prescriptions, so everybody will be able to know who's had what. So, there's real progress in that area. If there is anything specific, if you could write to me on that, I'll just see if we can follow that up because it sounds like a little tweak, but any little tweak from central Government takes usually quite a long time. But, let's give it a go, if you can write to me on that.

Question 4 [OQ60267] has been withdrawn. Question 5, Alun Davies.

'A Healthier Wales' remains our strategy for rebalancing the health and care system and moving away from hospital-based care and treatment towards prevention and community-based services. The national programmes for urgent and emergency care, planned care and primary care and the regional integration fund continue to support arrangements for local planning and delivery.

I'm grateful to the Minister for that. Aneurin Bevan, of course, said that the impact of any policy is the impact it has on the person in the street. Throughout my time here, the Welsh Government has fully supported the Aneurin Bevan health board in its development of the Clinical Futures plan, and a fundamental part of that, of course, was the delivery of additional services closer to home.

Two of my constituents, both elderly people, require regular drip infusions to manage their conditions. This treatment was delivered at Nevill Hall Hospital, which was a short bus ride or drive to Abergavenny from the constituency. It has now been transferred to the Royal Gwent. The Welsh Government does not put in place the public transport systems necessary for constituents in Blaenau Gwent to access these services, and, as a result, elderly constituents are put under a great deal of stress and anxiety in accessing treatment to which they have a fundamental right. It is important, if we are delivering and changing the configuration of services, that we put in place the means by which people can access those services. Successive Welsh Governments and successive health Ministers have come here and supported Clinical Futures; I support it myself. But, part of that was delivering services closer to home, not taking services further away and making them more difficult to access. How will this Welsh Government ensure that those services will be delivered closer to home, as Welsh Governments have already promised my constituents?

Well, I'll tell you how: by increasing the number of hours that community nurses can provide. So, there is no reason why some infusions can't be delivered in somebody's home, and wouldn't that be the ideal situation? I do think that it's important that, where we can, we provide that support in somebody's home. I absolutely recognise that if people need to go to a centralised service, that we do have to think very seriously about transport, and I can assure you, as a rural representative, that it's something I'm very, very aware of. If we are going to centralise services for that more specialised support, which is going to happen, people may have to, because they'll get better clinical outcomes, travel further, because we will be able to get more staff in those places and it'll be concentrated. When there's sickness of those staff, there will be other people to cover. It makes sense for us to concentrate, if we can, in certain areas when we need specialised services. But, I think it's a combination of thinking through how we're going to do transport better. There are lots of provisions of services. I know that there are lots of voluntary systems up and running that help people to go to local hospitals. My auntie used it two weeks ago to go from St David's to Swansea. So, it is possible, but the voluntary system of transport also exists in Blaenau Gwent and exists in Aneurin Bevan, and I'd suggest that perhaps we can find out some information for you on how your constituents can access that volunteer transport system.

The cystic fibrosis treatments Kaftrio, Symkevi, Orkambi and Kalydeco are all routinely available in Wales, for all their licensed indications. This is in accordance with the commercial access agreements reached between the Welsh Government and the manufacturer, Vertex Pharmaceuticals, in 2020.

I'm grateful for that response, and I know there was an exchange on this matter yesterday in First Minister's questions. But, obviously, this is a matter of interest for the hundreds of cystic fibrosis patients who are here in Wales, and their loved ones, many of whom are paying keen attention to the ongoing consultation by the National Institute for Health and Care Excellence on whether these drugs will be available in the future.

Now, I appreciate that those patients who are already in receipt of these medications will continue to be in receipt of them in the future, and they're enjoying the clinically proven efficacy of these drugs in, hopefully, what will be much longer life spans. But, clearly, there are people who are concerned. They want some assurances that, should there be a negative decision by NICE, and there'd be no agreement between the manufacturer, Vertex, and the NHS in order to make sure that these products are available in the future, that there are opportunities for those who could benefit from them still to access them here in Wales.

So, can you tell us the one thing that the First Minister didn't yesterday during First Minister's question time, and that is whether these medications will still potentially be available via the individual patient funding request route to accessing medications here in Wales, as has been the case for others not approved by NICE in the past?

Well, thanks very much, and there was quite a comprehensive exchange on this yesterday, obviously, in First Minister's questions. I hope that the intervention that the First Minister made yesterday gave a certain amount of reassurance to those people who are already in receipt of these medicines. So, if you're on these medicines at the moment, they're not going to be taken away from you.

Obviously, I understand the concern of those people who perhaps haven't quite got there yet or have younger children. As the First Minister indicated yesterday, it's not unusual for a negative assessment by NICE to happen at the start of a medicines appraisal, so some of this is about a negotiating process. But just in terms of what will happen if NICE says 'no', well, in general, the All Wales Medicines Strategy Group doesn't appraise medicines where they are already scheduled for appraisal by NICE. So, the AWMSG's role is primarily to appraise medicines that would otherwise not be considered by NICE. So, we'll probably go with whatever NICE's recommendation is.

Question 7 [OQ60282] is withdrawn. Question 8, Huw Irranca-Davies.

Third sector and volunteer-run breast cancer support groups play an important role in supporting women undergoing treatment or recovering from treatment for breast cancer. I expect cancer services to signpost people affected by breast cancer to these local support groups.

Thank you, Minister, for that answer. Recently, a host of people, including many Members in this Chamber, joined the official opening of the Snowdrop Breast Centre. Alex Davies-Jones MP cut the tape, but there were a host of people there. It's a £2 million investment that brings together a state-of-the-art one-stop shop not only for treatment and diagnosis, but care as well, through all stages of the cancer treatment journey, and complementary therapies. But, as well as the £2 million investment from Welsh Government and the health board there, there was also, of course, a moment there where there was a commemoration of Clare Smart, the founder of the Giving to Pink charity, and the £300,000 that they had raised in charitable fundraising for the centre. Also there as well were representatives from Pontyclun Bosom Pals, a group that I've known for a long, long time, who do so much in a network of people to bring together those who are also on the cancer journey.

So, would she agree with me that, actually, as well as the investment that we do and the improvements in treatment, diagnosis, care, and so on, these support groups are integral to actually having a satisfactory journey through cancer treatment, and to providing that network of people who've been through it themselves, who can discuss this together and help each other through this?

Thanks very much, Huw, and thanks for all your work on this issue. I know you're a champion of this cause, and thank you for bringing our attention to it once again. I'm look forward to visiting the Snowdrop Breast Centre, so I'm pleased to hear that it sounds like it's a very efficient and excellent service and already has received very glowing reports. So, it's good to have that in the heart of that community.

I agree with you. I think it's absolutely crucial to have that support around you if you're going through something quite as traumatic as this. There are people who don't want that, but there are a lot of people who are frightened. If you can speak to somebody else who's gone through it, who's going through it, I think it gives a huge amount of confidence to somebody that it is possible to get through what is probably one of the most traumatic events in your life. So, I would absolutely concur with you and give thanks to Giving to Pink—and what an amazing legacy Clare has left—and also to Bosom Pals in Pontyclun. And I know that there are many, many other similar organisations dotted around the whole of Wales. We know how many women suffer from breast cancer. It is a huge, huge number, and there's a community of people who have that in common who can share that experience, and I think those third sector networks are an excellent platform for people to be able to share those experiences.

We've taken a range of actions, including allocating an additional £3 million for extra staff, investing in new technology and establishing joint health board and Welsh Ambulance Services NHS Trust improvement plans. We have been clear with health boards in South Wales West of our expectation for improved ambulance handover performance to free up ambulance capacity.

Thank you, Minister, for the answer. Around 18 months ago, I raised the issue of the first responder unit based at Reynoldston on the Gower peninsula, you might recall. The community raised £65,000 for a first responder vehicle that could respond to emergency calls and get trained volunteers to a scene before an ambulance might arrive from further away. But I mentioned at that time that local people were getting very frustrated that they weren't receiving those 999 calls to that first response unit. Sometimes, there would be incidents where ambulances would take hours from miles away to an incident that happened two minutes down the road from Reynoldston.

I appreciate that a first response unit manned by volunteers is not appropriate for every call, but I also understand that some of these calls really could have used that emergency first response care on the front line to get there much quicker than an ambulance perhaps would have been able to from somewhere further afield. So, this was an issue 18 months ago when I raised it; it's still an issue today. So, can I implore you, Minister, to take this issue away and understand why this first response unit in Reynoldston isn't receiving those 999 calls in the first instance?

Thanks very much. I know that this is not an issue that is just pertinent to Reynoldston. So, I met with some people in the fire service, actually, who were a little bit frustrated that they weren't being used either. So, I have raised this issue with the Welsh ambulance service. They have a certain amount of money that they have to use. They have a certain amount of resources that they have to use, and so obviously it makes sense, where possible, to use alternatives. The fire situation is slightly different, in the sense that I think they are actually paid. If you're talking about volunteers, it's a very different proposition. So, if you allow me, I'll take that away and see if there's any reason why that is not being used more, because I recognise it's actually quite a long way away from an emergency department.

An expert group provided us with recommended steps towards a national care service, building on creating a national framework for commissioning care and establishing a national office for care and support. We have established a fair work forum and implemented the real living wage for the social care workforce.

Diolch, Weinidog. People who are carers are often put under tremendous strain, which is why respite is so important. But in my area, day services for adults with severe learning difficulties and caring needs haven’t returned to what was available before the pandemic, certainly not in Caerphilly. And this means those adults aren’t getting the support they used to have, but it also means their carers aren’t getting respite, and these carers are often parents in advanced years, sometimes elderly, and they’re really struggling. You’ll be aware of the charter for unpaid carers, which sets out the legal rights of unpaid carers in Wales. I’ve been contacted by constituents who fear that their local authority isn’t giving due regard to individuals’ needs in how they interpret that charter. Could you tell me, please, whether the Welsh Government would consider issuing stronger guidance to councils to ensure that unpaid carers and their children get the support that they all need?

Thank you very much, Delyth Jewell, for that question, and I know that you’ve been very concerned about your constituents, who I believe we have discussed before, and I do appreciate how difficult it is for them with the difficulties they have in caring for their loved one. And I do accept that carers have been under strain, and certainly the pandemic was a very difficult time for carers, and she is right to say that services, day services, have not returned in every area to the way that they should be. We have commissioned the Association of Directors of Social Services to look at this, and they have prepared a report that we will be acting on when we have studied it, because we think it is very important that we do all that we can possibly do for carers. Of course you mentioned the importance of breaks, and how difficult it is to take a break for people who have got caring responsibilities of that type.

And it is of course Carers Week, and Carers Rights Day is tomorrow, so it’s a really important time to highlight the rights of unpaid carers, and I’ve been meeting unpaid carers all week, and having a break is actually one of the main things that they’ve said to me. So, I’m pleased we have been able to initiate schemes in order for unpaid carers to have breaks, but certainly we will have to look at what the ADSS report says, and see how we act after that. 

And finally, question 11, Paul Davies. 

The Welsh Government is committed to working with health boards to meet the needs of people affected by cancer. Hywel Dda University Health Board is using key workers to develop person-centred cancer care. New support kits and books were launched last month to support families affected by cancer across west Wales.

Thank you for that response, Minister. Now, I recently visited Adam's Bucketful of Hope in Haverfordwest, a centre dedicated to supporting cancer patients along their journey. They offer a range of different therapeutic services, like massage and reflexology, as well as traditional counselling support to patients. I'm sure you'll appreciate that centres like Adam's Bucketful of Hope have such an enormous positive impact on people living with cancer, and I know from my own personal experience how important it is to have that right support. So, it's vital that they can continue to provide these much-needed services for many years. Therefore, can you tell us what support the Welsh Government offers to centres like this, so that they can continue to support cancer patients in Preseli Pembrokeshire?

Thanks very much. The key concern of the Welsh Government, of course, is to make sure that we provide the actual treatment of cancer. That's our prime responsibility here, and I'm very pleased to see that, actually, we have announced £86 million for new cancer diagnostic and treatment facilities. So, that has got to be our key focus, particularly in these times of very tight finances. So, it is more difficult for us then to help support those organisations. There are, of course, many organisations like Adam's Bucketful of Hope, and obviously we recognise that they play an invaluable part in people's cancer journey, but there are lots of other organisations in that space, and generally this is something where people raise funds locally and they raise funds as a charitable organisation, rather than something that is supported by Government.

Thank you, Minister. The next item would be the topical question, but the only one that has been accepted today is going to be taken as the item before voting time. 

The next item will be the 90-second statements and the first one today is from Jayne Bryant. 

Diolch, Llywydd. November is Pancreatic Cancer Awareness Month, and 16 November was World Pancreatic Cancer Day, giving us the opportunity to reflect upon all those whose lives have been affected by this devastating disease. Pancreatic cancer can affect young and old alike, with more than 10,500 people diagnosed in the UK. And a staggering half of those diagnosed do not survive beyond three months.

The one-year survival rate is just 26 per cent, with a five-year survival rate of just under 6 per cent in Wales, while all other common cancers have a 10-times improvement on survival. These are stark statistics, and although technology and treatments have improved radically in the last 45 years, these statistics have remained very much the same for pancreatic cancer, with only a slight improvement within the same period. And behind every statistic is a person and their loved ones.

Dawn Clayton from Newport is a former nurse and a nine-year pancreatic cancer survivor. Dawn was fortunate to be diagnosed early and has used her experience to influence and campaign for fairer and faster treatment. Dawn's work with Pancreatic Cancer UK is phenomenal. She decided to raise awareness by hiking from Germany to Italy across the Alps to show that people with pancreatic cancer, if treated promptly, can live a full and meaningful life despite a brutal diagnosis. I hope that today in the Senedd we can all listen to and, particularly, learn from Dawn's experience, her drive and her motivation by bringing a united approach to transform the future for all those affected by pancreatic cancer.

On 13 November 1923, Alfred Thomas Sherwood was born in North View Terrace, Aberaman. Alf, as he was known, displayed a passion and skill at sport from an early age. He represented Wales at youth level at both football and cricket, before signing at the age of 16 with his local side, Aberaman Athletic, whose grounds are just a short distance from his birthplace.

Alf was a Bevin boy during world war two and signed with Cardiff City in 1942. He stayed with the team for 14 years, making over 350 appearances and being captain when the club reclaimed their first-division status. He also made over 40 appearances playing for Wales, and was captain during the famous 2-1 victory over England in 1955.

In 1956, Alf joined Newport County, making over 200 appearances playing for that team. In 1961, he became the player-manager of Barry Town. And 1963 saw Alf retiring from football, working as a security officer for the National Coal Board. Alf passed away in 1990 and was inducted into the Welsh sports hall of fame in 2006. He is arguably remembered today as Aberaman’s favourite son, as a skilled footballer who gained the moniker ‘king of the sliding tacklers’ and as the sportsman Stanley Matthews described as the most difficult opponent he'd ever played against. Happy one-hundredth birthday, Alf.

I think it’s right and proper that this Parliament spends a moment remembering the life of David Rowe-Beddoe, who passed away last week. Many of us will have met David Rowe-Beddoe a number of times over the years. He had a career in business, which culminated in him being appointed chairman of the Welsh Development Agency in July 1993. He is well known for the contribution he made to the Welsh economy and to developing economic policy in Wales.

In his tribute to him, Geraint Talfan Davies described David Rowe-Beddoe as a force. And he certainly was. He was a force in business, he was a force in the arts, and he was a force in our national life. There are very few people who can actually claim to have shaped the Wales that we see today. But David Rowe-Beddoe is certainly one of them.

He is synonymous, perhaps, with the early history of the Wales Millennium Centre, and served with distinction as chair from March 2001 through to May 2010. He was also the president of the Royal Welsh College of Music and Drama. His mother, of course, was a well-known opera singer. And that sort of sense of the theatre stayed with him throughout his life. It drove him into what he wanted to achieve.

He was, for many of us who had the pleasure of enjoying his company, somebody who was an inspiring figure. He inspired change in Wales; he inspired ambition in Wales; he had a vision for Wales, and it is something that he was able to realise for us all. The loss of David Rowe-Beddoe is a loss to our national life. I hope that we will all take a moment to remember his contribution to Wales and his vision for the future of Wales.

Thank you very much for that tribute.

The next item will be a debate on a petition to introduce comprehensive safety measures at the A477 Fingerpost junction, and I call on the committee Chair to move the motion—Jack Sargeant.

Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. On behalf of the Senedd Petitions Committee, can I thank you for the opportunity to introduce this debate today, during what is Road Safety Week? Those of us who attend this Chamber are no stranger to the Nash Fingerpost junction. The junction has been the subject of numerous questions from Samuel Kurtz and his predecessor, Angela Burns, in this very Chamber. Presiding Officer, local Member of Parliament Simon Hart has also campaigned on the issue for a number of years, alongside local town and community councillors and concerned residents. 

But, for the benefit of those not familiar, it’s a junction where the A4075, running east from Pembroke, meets the A477, the east-west trunk road running from Pembroke Dock to St Clears. The petition was created by Elliot Morrison. It collected over 10,300 signatures. Over 80 per cent of those signatures are from the two Pembrokeshire constituencies; it really does show the strength of feeling in that county. 

Llywydd, the petition reads:   

'Introduce comprehensive safety measures at the A477 "Fingerpost" junction. On Saturday 13 May 2023, Ashley Thomas Rogers tragically lost his life at the A477 "Fingerpost" junction travelling towards Pembroke. His death marked the third fatality on that stretch of road within the space of 12 years. Further, there have been innumerable near misses on what is known locally as a "black spot" for road traffic accidents. Enough is enough. This petition calls upon the Welsh Government to do the right thing and prioritise human life over trivial budgeting pressure.'

Llywydd, I should place on record that the thoughts and prayers of this Senedd are with the family and friends of Ashley Rogers and all of those who have, tragically, lost their lives on this stretch of road. At the start of the half-term recess, I travelled to the area to see the situation for myself. During that very visit, I witnessed several near misses at the junction and I saw at first hand the danger of the current situation. Having seen it with my own eyes, the surprise is not that there have been fatal incidents at this junction—it’s that they don’t happen all of the time. 

Since this petition was launched, the Deputy Minister with responsibility for transport in the Welsh Government has announced that the junction is to have traffic lights. This is, of course, welcome news. Campaigners have welcomed this announcement; now they are keen to understand when the traffic lights will be installed, and I hope the Minister, responding to today's debate, will be able to provide an update in her contribution in responding. 

While the installation of traffic lights will be a major road-safety improvement, campaigners would have preferred, and still would prefer, to see a roundabout. Indeed, a new petition calling for a roundabout at the junction has already received over 300 signatures since it was opened last month. The Petitions Committee will, of course, consider this petition in due course at a future meeting. 

Now, I understand that traffic lights would be a faster solution—a short-term solution to improve road safety. But I would be grateful to the Minister, again, if she would use her response to this debate to commit to reviewing the effectiveness of the traffic lights proposed and the need for further improvements in the future, including the option of a roundabout. Presiding Officer, I look forward to hearing the contributions from Members in the Chamber this afternoon, and, of course, the Minister's response. 

I'm grateful for the opportunity to contribute to today's debate on the petition calling for the introduction of comprehensive safety measures at the A477 Fingerpost junction in my Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire constituency—timely, given that we mark Road Safety Week this week. As the local Member, this is not the first time I have spoken about this dangerous junction in this Chamber. However, I am hopeful that this could be the last time that the necessity of safety improvements at the Nash Fingerpost junction is discussed in this Chamber, and I am pleased that the Welsh Government have realised that the calls for improvements could no longer be ignored.

On Saturday 13 May this year, Ashley Thomas Rogers was involved in a road traffic collision at the Nash Fingerpost junction. The 29-year-old from Kilgetty sadly died at the scene, leaving behind a devastated fiancée, son and family. His death shook our community and our thoughts continue to be with Ashley's friends and family. Yet, sadly, this was not the first fatality at this junction. In memory of Ashley and to ensure that a tragedy such as this never happens again at this junction, his friend Elliott Morrison set up the petition stating, 'Enough is enough'. My predecessor, Angela Burns, raised the issue of Nash Fingerpost on many occasions in this Chamber and was a strong advocate for improvements to be made. Simon Hart MP too has campaigned for changes to this junction for over a decade. Thanks must also be given to the local county councillor, Tessa Hodgson, for her support for much-needed improvements; to Yvette Weblin-Grimsley, who tirelessly campaigned, helping the petition reach 10,000 signatures; and to the wider countless other county, town and community councillors and the wider constituents, who lobbied, campaigned and petitioned on the matter and who have written to me to share their concerns. Thank you to everyone who has campaigned for improvements.

Can I also extend my thanks to Petitions Committee Chair, Jack Sargeant, for visiting the site, meeting concerned residents and seeing for himself the numerous near misses that take place at this junction on a daily basis? Jack's willingness to listen and his chairmanship of the committee are to be commended, and I thank him once again. I joined Jack on his visit to the junction—just one of the countless visits I've made to Nash Fingerpost. On each and every occasion, I have seen vehicles take risks to enter the A477 trunk road from the A4075 from Pembroke, westbound lorries slamming on their brakes as they come through the dip in the road to the east of the junction, or cars not paying attention to indicating vehicles exiting the main road. The A477 is a busy, busy road, with ferry traffic and freight, refinery and heavy industry traffic, tank transporters from Castlemartin firing range and the usual commuters too. This is one of the main arterial routes in and out of the county. It has been clear for a number of years that something—anything—needed to be done at the junction to improve its safety and usability.

I must express my thanks to the Deputy Minister for his confirmation, on 11 October, that traffic signals will be installed by the end of this financial year. This is welcomed. However, I would be grateful if the Minister could confirm what, exactly, these traffic signals entail. There is confusion locally. Are they traffic lights? Are they flashing speed reduction signs? Some confirmation of what the traffic signals will be will be extremely helpful. Also, in his response to me on 11 October, the Deputy Minister made reference to a request for a roundabout and that this remains—I quote—'a long-term option'. Given that roundabouts exist along the A477 at Carew Cheriton, at Kilgetty and elsewhere, this seems to be a natural choice. I'd be grateful if, in her reply, the Minister could confirm that, following the installation of traffic lights, investigative work will continue into the possible construction of a roundabout at the junction.

The petition has shown the strength of public feeling in the area—over two thirds of those who signed it are residents of Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire. The debate locally has been one of frustration that calls for safety improvements have, for a decade, fallen on deaf ears. That debate has now turned to either traffic lights or a roundabout. I'm much happier that we're debating what is the solution rather than begging for any solution, because the original petition title calls for the introduction of comprehensive safety measures.

From its very inception, this junction has been dangerous. Too many lives have been lost, too many lives have been changed forever, too many near misses have left people nervous, even avoiding this junction altogether. I will close by thanking, once more, everyone who took the time to sign this petition, to all those who have campaigned relentlessly for safety improvements. I hope that today the Welsh Government have heard our calls. Diolch, Llywydd.

I am very grateful for the opportunity to contribute to this debate, and I'd like to thank the Petitions Committee as well as the local community, of course, for promoting this petition. The significant number who have signed the petition is a testament to the great concern in the area about this dangerous junction, and, of course, we take the opportunity to remember all the lives that have been lost in that location and the lives that have been transformed as well, because of these very serious accidents. A number of constituents have contacted me over the last couple of years noting their concerns. And a number of people, including elderly people, are refusing to use the junction at all because of the danger.

I have raised the issue with the Deputy Minister already and I welcome the attention that the Welsh Government has already given to these concerns and as we've heard already, there is an intention to install traffic lights in that area, which is a step in the right direction.

I welcome the petition's calls in particular to introduce safety measures at this particular junction at Nash. And, as I mentioned, traffic lights are a step in the right direction, but I believe that we should support the community's calls for a consideration to building a roundabout at that point, as is already the case in many locations along the A477 and A40. I'd also like to urge the Government to consider more appropriate steps to raise awareness of motorcyclists, who also travel on this busy section of the trunk road.

As many have mentioned already, it is Road Safety Week, and I'd like to stress the need for the Welsh Government to look at the Nash junction as part of a wider package of measures to tackle road safety on trunk roads and junctions across south-west Wales.

Some facts: in Pembrokeshire and neighbouring Carmarthenshire, the number of lives that are sadly lost or transformed as a result of road accidents remains alarmingly high. Last year alone, across Pembrokeshire, Dyfed-Powys Police recorded 231 accidents, with 99 people either killed or seriously injured. As Sam Kurtz mentioned earlier on, the A477 and the nearby A40 are vital transport arteries for passengers and freight to and from Ireland, the Milford Haven energy cluster, military machinery, as well as the huge surge in visitor numbers during the holiday period. So, with this increased activity, accidents inevitably follow, and only about half-an-hour away from Nash, on the A40 between Carmarthen and St Clears, 359 accidents occurred between 2010 and 2019, again resulting in deaths and life-changing injuries.

Now, I know the roads review, carried out by the Welsh Government recently, considered changing the speed limit as one option for tackling the problem, but, surely, we need to look at more far-reaching solutions, given the danger posed by these junctions.

The efficiency and safety of these trunk roads is of major importance to the communities and the economy of the south-west, and with consultation continuing on a new hospital possibly in the west of Carmarthenshire, as well as the recent announcement of a free port for Pembrokeshire, it is essential that the local community and businesses have confidence that this infrastructure will be as safe as possible.

I therefore welcome this petition, and I fully support its demands. And on behalf of Plaid Cymru, I would like to encourage the Government to consider these demands, as well as the ongoing problems on the trunk roads of south-west Wales generally. Thank you.

I want to actually thank all the petitioners that have worked so hard here, and my colleagues, who have also worked hard, to try and exact some change on what is a notoriously, sadly notoriously, recognised black spot. Like those who have said before me, lives have been lost, and lives have been tragically changed. We do need some clarity on a few things, really. What are the traffic signals? Are they traffic lights, as Sam Kurtz has said, or are they beacons? And we need, then, of course, as has been promised, to review the effectiveness of that solution. But a solution must come, and it must come pretty quickly.

Of course, tourism adds to the danger; like others here, I live in Pembrokeshire. And all too often, people change direction at the last minute—I see it all the time. And as a local, I allow for it, because I virtually know where people might change their minds. If they don't know the roads, tourists, and this is quite a fast road, the fact, then, that they make a different decision, sometimes at the last minute, only adds to the danger of these sorts of junctions. And of course we all know that, in the summer, the population of Pembrokeshire doubles, so it also increases the likelihood of things going wrong.

As has been mentioned, it is a road that leads to the ports. And with a port development very much high on the agenda at the moment, which will produce more heavy goods wagons, more potential ferry traffic as well, there is a real, real need to get this right. And I support all those calls to do just that. I also agree that we must listen to the community, in terms of what it is they want. And what they need, what everybody wants to see initially, is something being done—something to slow traffic down, to stop traffic, but to make this safer, and then to move pretty quickly into reviewing the effectiveness of perhaps a roundabout. There are, as you say, several roundabouts servicing very many holiday destinations along that road; I know because I've been to many of them on a regular basis.

So, I commend the people who've worked hard to get to this point, and I support them in what they've done.

I'm pleased to be able to take part in this debate this afternoon. I just want to add my voice to those who have campaigned tirelessly for comprehensive safety measures at the A477 Fingerpost junction, and I thank the Petitions Committee for their work on this important issue, and indeed to the organiser of the petition, and to everyone who have actually signed this petition.

Now, previous speakers have already referred to the very sad circumstances surrounding the origin of this petition, and I know all Members share a genuine ambition to see this stretch of road made safer for everyone. Some of you will have also seen the Motorcycle Action Group's video, which also shows just how dangerous the junction is. The video shows vehicles pulling out of the junction and waiting across the actual carriageway, which then forces the oncoming traffic to slow down or stop, and it also showed long queues of traffic waiting on the A4075 approach and cars in the central waiting area. Therefore, it's vital that a permanent solution is found to make the junction as safe as possible. 

Now, the issue has generated a huge amount of support from people across Pembrokeshire. As the committee Chair said, many of the people who signed this petition are from my constituency, as well as my colleague Sam Kurtz's, which just goes to show the importance of this issue to people living right across the county. And the wording of the petition itself is very clear—'Enough is enough.' The junction continues to remain a danger to motorists until permanent safety measures are put in place, and I cannot stress that enough. It's only by installing more permanent, long-term safety measures at the Fingerpost junction that we can attempt to stop these fatalities happening in the future. 

Now, I don't doubt that the Welsh Government shares the same goal as the petitioners in making this road as safe as possible, and I know in the correspondence that the Deputy Minister has sent to the Petitions Committee that he's explained some of the actions that the Government is taking. As has already been said, signing, road markings and possible minor junction layout changes for enhanced visibility have been implemented in the short term, as well as the introduction of u-turn prohibitions at the junction. Indeed, the restriction of u-turns on the road, in particular, will undoubtedly help to reduce the likelihood of collisions and traffic disruptions. 

Whilst all of these are very welcome improvements that will hopefully go some way to improving the situation, I do share the petitioner's view, and the view of everyone who has taken part in this debate this afternoon, that a roundabout would be a much more effective solution that would certainly make the road permanently safer for motorists. At the very least, the Welsh Government must liaise with the local community to find a solution that works for the communities that actually use this stretch of road. Therefore, I do hope the Welsh Government will continue to engage with the local community and deliver a more permanent safety measure in the future.

The Deputy Minister has indicated that the Welsh Government and the South Wales Trunk Road Agent will assess the suitability and enforcement requirements of a speed restriction on this section, and provide a business case for the introduction of traffic signals. Therefore, perhaps the Minister, in responding to this debate this afternoon, will provide us with some timescales as to when this work will now take place. 

So, in closing, Llywydd, can I thank the petitioners for their hard work in raising awareness of this important matter and for bringing this matter to the Senedd's attention? And can I also thank the committee for their consideration of this petition, and the efforts that they have gone to to better understand the situation and help find ways to make this junction safer for motorists in the future? Diolch. 

The Minister for Climate Change to contribute to the debate—Julie James. 

Diolch, Llywydd. I just want to start by passing on my own sincere sympathies to Ashley Rogers's family, and indeed to the families of everyone else who have been affected by fatalities and traffic accidents on this junction. I know from personal experience how dreadful it is to lose somebody in that way, and I want to pass on my sincere and heartfelt sympathies to them. 

I've listened very carefully to Members' concerns today, and I've listened very carefully to the Chair of the Petitions Committee's expression of the concerns of members of the public as well. I want to just say, during Road Safety Week particularly, that, at all times, the Welsh Government takes road safety very seriously across our whole network. 

Llywydd, the Members have said today a number of things that are already taking place, but I will just reiterate them. At this junction, we've already laid new road markings, which highlight 'Araf' or 'Slow'. We've erected police road safety campaign signs, and we've begun improvements to junction signage. We have informed local stakeholders that we're implementing a temporary new 40 mph speed limit, and a no u-turn order at this junction, in advance of the permanent order process. 

In terms of the timescale for the installation of the traffic signals, which a number of Members have mentioned, we intend to start this financial year. It requires the laying of cabling induction in advance of the main civil works. This is dependent on some third party engagement with National Grid and some land ownership issues, but we absolutely intend to get them in this financial year. We're undertaking detailed design options for the traffic signals control arrangements, to ensure that we consider safety, of course, but also seek to reduce congestion and minimise carbon with the introduction of the traffic signals. We're also considering some futureproofing options for active travel at the junction.

We put some CCTV in place there, as I know Members know, and we observed a number of things ourselves. During the time the CCTV was there, for example, we saw instances of large vehicles blocking visibility, vehicles using the junction for u-turns, vehicles overshooting the junction, and then trying to turn right from the A4075 but stopping within the A477 westbound lane, as Joyce pointed out; she's seen that happening, I know, herself. We're going to be progressing the permanent traffic orders at the same time, but Members should be aware that permanent traffic orders take around nine to 12 months. So, we're putting the temporary traffic orders in immediately in order to make sure that the junction is made as safe as possible straight away.

We will, of course, consider a roundabout, but that will be subject to the outcome and review of the measures that have already been put in place. A roundabout would take a considerable amount of time to put in place—at least three years—even if the land was all within our highway boundary, which, unfortunately, I understand it is not for this particular junction, and that can take a bit longer. We want to have, therefore, some smaller, quicker solutions, rather than large-scale engineering options, for a whole range of reasons that I've already outlined and Members will be aware of. But I'm not ruling out a roundabout. We will want to, of course, monitor what happens with the new improvements that go in. A roundabout remains a long-term option. But I can't stress enough that that is not an instant solution. We will have to do quite a lot of work in terms of ownership and so on as well. So, we will monitor that. I'm sure Members will help us do that as well.

And I very much hope that this will make the junction safer, and we don't have any other families put into the position that poor Ashley Rogers' family have been put into. I know that the Chair of the Petitions Committee in particular will want very much to ensure that no family goes through this again. So, I hope that what I've outlined today, Llywydd, will put Members' minds at rest and we will be able to take this forward together. Diolch. 

The Chair of the committee, Jack Sargeant, to respond. 

Diolch yn fawr, Presiding Officer. I'm grateful to Members and the Minister for their contributions, and the Minister's response this afternoon. We heard from the local Member, Sam Kurtz, his constituency neighbour, Paul Davies, and the two regional Members who took part in the debate today, and I know others were listening and wanted to take part as well, but we heard from Joyce Watson and Cefin Campbell this afternoon. And I think that message from Members who contributed was support for the petition, but also support for the wider community in finding a community solution, and listening to the community and what their requirements were.  

We heard, didn't we, Presiding Officer, that some members of the local community are afraid to use the junction in its current state, because of the dangers that we've seen. The Minister, in her response, said the CCTV that the Welsh Government put into place—you could see large vehicles blocking roads, you could see u-turns taking place. Joyce Watson mentioned her own experiences of witnessing that, particularly in summer months, when tourism increases. I can certainly say that was the situation when I visited the area with Sam Kurtz just last month. We saw that on numerous occasions—the daily dangers. In the short period I was there—I think I was there for less than an hour, Presiding Officer—there were numerous occasions that we could recall of various situations happening. 

The Minister, in her response, set out the measures that have been taking place. I was pleased to hear from the Minister that the Welsh Government haven't ruled out the longer term option of a roundabout, but, of course, she stated some of the issues in front of the community and the Government with that situation. The importance of monitoring the improvements that have been announced from Welsh Government will, of course, be crucial. And I urge the Minister to do two things: keep members of the local community updated—. I am sure the committee will, of course, want to try and be involved with that as well. But I also urge Welsh Government to do what they can to make sure those safety measures announced and the commitment of in this financial year—where there are some issues with the third parties, to do what they can with the levers they have to make sure they are introduced with urgency, so we all get to that place where the situation is reviewed, we don't end up with another fatality on that stretch of road, and get all the anticipated outcomes from the Members and the Minister today, where there are safer journeys for everyone coming both into and from Pembroke and Pembroke Dock.

Presiding Officer, I will close there by thanking Elliot Morrison, in particular, for petitioning the Senedd with this particular petition. I want to thank the local Members and campaigners who helped. Sam Kurtz mentioned two in particular, local councillor Tessa and Yvette who I met on the day, who worked tirelessly to get the 10,000 signatures and above. But, more importantly, Presiding Officer, in Road Safety Week, I would like to close, as I said in opening, and as Members and the Minister have repeated, with that the thoughts and prayers of this Senedd are very much with those who have lost loved ones on this stretch of road and other stretches of roads in Wales and across the United Kingdom. 

I thank the Chair. The proposal, therefore, is to note the petition. Does any Member object? No, there is no objection. The motion is therefore agreed.

Item 5 is the next item, the Welsh Conservatives debate on digital and AI technology in the NHS. Russell George will move the motion. Russell George.

Diolch, Presiding Officer. I move the motion today in the name of my colleague Darren Millar. Technology is revolutionising the delivery of healthcare around the globe. Innovative technological solutions, from artificial intelligence, virtual reality, 3D printers, robotics and precision medicine and bioengineering are being developed and deployed within health settings to bring about advancements in treatment, aid clinical decision making, empower patients and make healthcare both more accessible and efficient. Across the UK, our health systems are adopting pioneering technological approaches to detect and identify cancers, train students and clinicians to manage a range of clinical situations, monitor patients at home instead of in hospital, and automate administrative tasks to improve efficiency, track locations of mobile equipment around the hospital—that was new to me, as well; I thought that staggering as well—to stop some equipment going missing around a hospital, of course, and it aids better advancement in hospital efficiency.

Now, Joe Harrison, who is the NHS England digital lead, has recently stated that every £1 spent on technology generates between £3.50 and £4 in savings. But it's equally important that we don't get too carried away and that safety is a priority, which the second point of our motion alludes to. Of course, I do very much welcome the AI summit, the world's first global AI summit, which was hosted in the UK by the Prime Minister at Bletchley Park earlier this month. During that summit, the Government reached a shared ambition to invest in public sector capacity for AI testing and conduct research into AI safety, which was welcome.

So, here in Wales, we do have some progress, but progress is slow; it's not as fast as I certainly would like it to be, which brings me on to points 3 and 4 of our motion today. It was really good, it was great to see, the first e-prescriptions in Wales taking place the other week in Rhyl. That really was a good-news story, and that will start being rolled out across Wales, I understand, from January next year. We should celebrate that achievement, but also recognise it was far too slow. It's something that I and my colleagues have been calling for for some time, and I think it should have been done much, much sooner.

NHS England issued its first e-prescription in 2005, and had rolled out e-prescribing to over 90 per cent of pharmacies and GP practices by 2018. So, e-prescribing removes the need, of course, for clinicians to physically sign prescriptions, and replaces them with an electronic signature. So far, during 2023, so far this year, 90 per cent of prescriptions in NHS England have been issued electronically—90 per cent. That's not the case, of course, in Wales.

E-prescribing has been estimated to save 2.7 million hours of GP practice time in England, as it removes the need for clinicians to sign prescriptions and automates repeat prescriptions. That's staggering, isn't it? Two point seven million hours of GP practice time in England saved. And if you think—. If we had had the same advancement in Wales as in England, think of the time that GPs could have spent on seeing patients rather than conducting unnecessary administrative processes.

So, our point about the NHS app—. And I recognise that GP surgeries are now using it across Wales, about 50 per cent of GP practices are signed up to the service, I think, so far, but we do need to have some urgency in this regard also, because the NHS app will allow patients, of course, to access a range of NHS services at a time that is convenient to them, including ordering repeat prescriptions, managing appointments with specialist services and viewing their GP records, which is also important as well. This will help reduce paperwork and waiting in phone queues that many people have to do so often in the morning to speak to their GP, and the amount of time that will free up will be significant.

And finally, our point 4 calls on the Welsh Government to have some urgency. Yes, there is progress, and I accept there is progress, but we need to see greater urgency in the roll out of the NHS app and e-prescribing across the whole of Wales for the reasons I've already pointed out.

I'd also like to see the acceleration of the integration of digital and AI technologies for the Welsh NHS. The Royal College of Radiologists has said that, at a time when diagnostic and cancer services are under strain, with a 30 per cent shortfall in radiologists and 18 per cent shortfall in clinical oncologists, it is critical that we embrace innovation that could boost capacity. They also surveyed their members and the results were pretty staggering: 90 per cent of their members think AI will increase their efficiency. Well, if an incredibly high number of people, health professionals, highly skilled health professionals, are saying that this will increase their efficiency, then we need to make some progress.

AI and new technology in the NHS bring great opportunity for improvement, but we must also think about phasing out outdated NHS technologies as well. You may well remember the Welsh NHS 111 system was the victim of a cyber attack last year, which caused software outages that prevented NHS 111 making referrals to out-of-hours GP services, and, in January this year, the Minister who is responding to the debate today stated she would be getting rid of fax machines 'soon'. I know that many young people—. If any young people are listening to this, they'll be googling, 'What is a fax machine?' [Laughter.] But we really do need to see, of course, the end of fax machines. And in fact, in Wales, a new fax machine was even purchased for the newly opened Grange hospital, and this hospital was opened in November 2020.

So, I hope, in closing my contribution to this opening of the debate, the Minister will agree with me and the Welsh Conservative position, which recognises that the adoption of new digital technologies is dependent upon the underlying technological infrastructure being up to date, and I hope the Minister, like myself and the Welsh Conservatives, is committed to investment in Welsh NHS technological and digital infrastructure and the phasing out of iconic—. Not iconic. What's the word I'm looking for? Aconic—in the past?

Prehistoric.

Prehistoric. [Laughter.] Thank you, Andrew.

—prehistoric technologies and the adoption of cutting-edge technologies to create a resourced, renowned and reliable Welsh NHS. And resourced: we do need a Welsh NHS that is fully resourced. I want to see an NHS that is renowned, renowned around the UK and renowned around the world, and I want to see—and I'm sure we all agree in this Chamber—a reliable NHS, because that's what the people of Wales deserve. I look forward to Members' contributions this afternoon.

I have selected the amendment to the motion. And I call on the Minister for Health and Social Services to formally move remove amendment 1, tabled in the name of Lesley Griffiths.

Formally.

Newport East is a very diverse community, especially in places like Liswerry and Maindee, where there is a high percentage of ethnic minority households. And we had an interesting experience with those communities around trying to improve vaccine take-up and general access to healthcare during the pandemic, and that has had a continuing legacy afterwards.

During the pandemic, we had the emergence of Muslim Doctors Cymru, which was a very useful development in tackling that relatively poor take-up of vaccinations—the all-important vaccinations—during that awful pandemic. And many of the initiatives that Muslim Doctors Cymru took forward were based around the use of new technology. They were very good at using webinars and social media to connect with individuals and groups where English is not a first language, to explain what was happening in terms of health provision during the pandemic, to support and assist, to deal with some misconceptions, and generally address the health need at that crucial time. They were mindful of the fact that some elders particularly in some of the ethnic minority communities were not literate either in English or in their own languages, as it were, and so anything written was of limited value. And that's where the production of videos and the use of social media videos were very useful in reaching those who wouldn't have been reached in the more accepted and usual ways.

Thankfully as well, we were able to organise what I think was a very useful virtual public meeting with the ethnic minority community in Newport East, with the then health Minister, with the health board, with mosque leaders, obviously Muslim Doctors Cymru, and a number of others to get these key messages across. Not only was that meeting a great success in those terms, but it has also resulted in various groups maintaining links, groups that met during that virtual meeting, and since then there have been lots of webinars and campaign initiatives on a variety of health issues, including cancer, mental health and organ donation. So, as with the pandemic in general, it was such an awful time but at least some interesting and useful initiatives have come from it and have continued and developed. 

I'm wondering, really, how Welsh Government can continue to work with groups like Muslim Doctors Cymru who are embracing some of these modern technologies to help improve health outcomes in Wales. What funding is available, for example, that might enable these groups to further develop and strengthen their work? And for those communities where English or Welsh isn't a first language, what measures have been put in place by Welsh Government, working with NHS Wales, for those individuals who want to use the NHS app? These modern developments, these new developments are very useful and potentially could be more useful than they are at the moment, if we deal with some of the ways in which we can make them more widely accessed and more widely beneficial. And there are some important issues in those terms with regard to our more diverse communities in Wales, and I'd be interested in what the Minister would have to say on those matters. Diolch yn fawr.

I'm very pleased to be able to take part in this important debate here today. And it's clear that there are major inefficiencies within the NHS in Wales, and there is an opportunity for the better use of technology to help tackle some of those inefficiencies. And sadly, we're 25 years now into a Labour Government here in Wales, and we're well behind the curve when it comes to the use of cutting-edge technology, compared to the rest of the United Kingdom, or certainly the rest of the developed world.

There are some real basics that aren't happening here in Wales. We've already heard about not having e-prescribing fully rolled out. It's a bit embarrassing, quite frankly, that we're in that position at the moment. It is good to hear of some of the things starting to happen now, but we are in 2023 and it was interesting hearing John Griffiths's contribution there, talking about some of the modern technology and the modern options that are available. You know, apps aren't that modern. I don't know how many years, probably two decades down the road now, and we're talking about the use of things like apps. But improved technology in the health service is certainly a win-win, both for those working in health services and people who are using those services day to day; and, of course, modernising these systems will lead to better accountability, better performance and better outcomes for everybody.

So, we've already heard from colleagues so far this afternoon, we've covered a variety of these areas that are in our motion today, but I'd like to build on that and talk about data management—I know the Minister will be interested in this. It is an area that is fraught with difficulties and sometimes it's hard to understand how that can be best handled. It's important to protect data, but to stimulate innovation, there need to be sensible discussions around data sharing and information governance, which is used to help organisations improve their offer and thus improve outcomes for the people that they serve.

I'd encourage all Members, if you get chance, to read an excellent report that has a snappy title; it's called 'Information governance as a socio-technical process in the development of trustworthy healthcare AI'. This report focused on work with the Welsh ambulance service, and the project team who wrote that report had concerns about the ability of stakeholders in Wales to make best use of AI in delivering for patients. One of the conclusions the authors drew was that participating organisations, including the ambulance service, and I quote this now, 

'would benefit from greater organizational readiness for dealing with the specifics of IG processes for healthcare AI',

and that there are big issues with who they describe as stakeholders not wanting to commit to binding decisions about data sharing arrangements due to a lack of formal advice.

Now, it all sounds a bit complicated and it all sounds a bit geekish, but if we can't get the data sharing right, then we can't actually do the things that we want to do, so I'll be interested to hear from the Minister and Welsh Government on what they're doing to develop this information governance structure in a clear, systematic and fair way that will ultimately benefit patients across Wales for the long term.

All of this speaks to point 3(c) of our motion today, which is highlighting the importance of getting the infrastructure right. We often think of the physical infrastructure or perhaps software infrastructure, but getting governance infrastructure, particularly around data and information sharing, is just as important, so that we can actually make the most of technological advances in the first place.

There's also more—and I'd like to speak to this point—that can be done with innovation by individuals, and to this end I'd advocate for consideration by the Minister of the adoption of a scheme such as the Topol digital fellowships. I'm sure the Minister's heard of this. This is explicitly designed to give health and social care professionals the time, support and training to lead digital health transformations and innovations in their organisations. At the moment, the fellowship is only open to certain clinical staff in NHS England, but how it works is that each fellow's employer receives a ring-fenced sum of money to support the successful delivery of a project that spurs digital change in the national health service. And, as contributions in this debate so far have shown, we seem to be lacking in innovation from the top-down structure that is in place at the moment, and in my experience, often some of the best ideas work best through a bottom-up approach. So, schemes such as Topol would enable the delivery of innovation from those who know best; those on the wards, in the surgeries, out in our communities. So, I would ask the Minister what consideration has been undertaken to introduce something similar here in Wales, and in working with counterparts in Westminster to make sure we can learn from each other across the United Kingdom.

I'm going to wrap up now, Deputy Presiding Officer. So, let's just reflect on, first of all, we have a lot of catching up to do here in Wales, especially around technological innovation, but I think we can get there if we grasp the nettle on this and decide to move quickly, get the governance right around information sharing, and put in place a system that enables a bottom-up approach in terms of idea generation. I would call on all Senedd Members to support our motion and support our national health service. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

One of the most remarkable aspects of our NHS has been its ability to evolve with the times without compromising its founding principle as a public institution that is free at the point of use. But this hasn't happened through chance. It's been the consequence of careful planning and effective collaboration. Maintaining this balance between ensuring the fundamental continuity of the NHS's character and embracing positive change and methods of delivery will therefore be crucial as we enter this new age of increased digitalisation and the emergence of AI technologies.

Plaid Cymru has been clear for some time that improving the digital infrastructure of the NHS should be a key priority for the Welsh Government. Indeed, this was one of the key recommendations of our NHS action plan, following engagement with healthcare professionals, which revealed an over-reliance on outdated technologies such as fax machines, as we heard earlier, and a lack of consistent data on workforce vacancies.

A particular area of concern is the performance and accessibility of Welsh-specific data systems, which has become a recurring theme in many aspects of governance in Wales. Anyone currently working on public policy in Wales will be well acquainted with the frustrations of being unable to access reliable and up-to-date data from sources such as Stats Wales, and the lack of transparency in this area can have incredibly detrimental implications for the delivery of public services.

For example, we've recently heard the Royal College of Emergency Medicine urging the Welsh Government to include breach exemption figures within the published data for A&E waiting times, the absence of which is giving a misleading impression of the true extent of demand for front-line services, and therefore hindering the ability of staff to plan effectively. This isn't a new call. It's been highlighted as a problem for well over a year. One of the six missions of the Welsh Government's new digital and data strategy for health and social care in Wales is to deliver high-quality digital services designed around the needs of the citizen, professionals and services. So, instead of implying that the RCEM are willfully misunderstanding the breach exemption policy, the Welsh Government would do well to live up to the words of their own data strategy and commit to including breach exemption figures in published A&E data as a bare minimum.

The effective roll-out of new technologies is not simply a matter of quantity. It should also be qualitatively tailored to the particular needs of healthcare providers in Wales. For example, in the case of e-prescriptions, Community Pharmacy Wales have stressed that while a shift to this model is desirable in principle, its practical implementation must be alert to the unintended consequence of prescriptions moving across the border to England. The English community pharmacy contract enables distance-selling pharmacies to be established, which account for around 6 per cent of prescriptions in England. If a similar proportion of prescriptions in Wales moved across the border, the viability of many community pharmacies would be in serious jeopardy. Though Community Pharmacy Wales have acknowledged the value of cross-border distance selling in certain situations, especially for some patients living on the border and Welsh holidaymakers in England, it must not come at the expense of established community-based services that are already struggling with the threat of closure after years of underinvestment. This comes back to the point I made at the start of the debate, about marrying continuity with change, and it would be useful if the Minister could provide an update on how this particular risk is being addressed in the Welsh Government's strategy for e-prescriptions.

Finally, we must not overlook the importance of robust regulation and governance in this area. My colleague Luke Fletcher recently inquired about the Welsh Government's approach to this matter in a written question, and while we absolutely agree that the adoption of AI by public institutions needs to be responsible, ethical and fair, we are disappointed that the Government doesn't appear to have a specific strategy for managing AI usage in Welsh society.

We also need to ensure that the search for technological solutions prioritises the resources we already have here in Wales, rather than resorting to outsourcing arrangements that bypass Welsh businesses and do not stimulate activity in our own economy. For example, the recently launched cyber innovation hub in Cardiff could be a key delivery partner for Digital Health and Care Wales, and I'd hope that the Welsh Government has been facilitating collaborative networks to this end. The ambition to create a tech-centric investment zone in north-east Wales should also be viewed in the same light.

An NHS that is well equipped to deal with the technological challenges of the modern world, but continues to function as it has done for three quarters of a century, as a public institution that is free at the point of use, that is our overarching vision for the future of healthcare in Wales. We hope that all parties in the Senedd share it.

I'm thankful to the Welsh Conservatives and Russell George for tabling this important debate today on enhancing and improving technology in our Welsh NHS—tech that is, of course, revolutionising our services. Our support for the NHS is unwavering. We all want to see the best possible services for our constituents and a future where we'll be utilising these new technologies in the safest way possible. By embracing new technologies, AI and innovation in Wales, we can seek to tackle Labour's appalling waiting lists. What investment can we see that will speed up the process of bringing our Welsh NHS into the twenty-first century? It's something I'm looking forward to hearing from the Minister in her response. 

There are a lot of exciting technological innovations happening in health right now, so it's only right that Wales gets its piece of the pie. Not only that, like our shadow health Minister, I hope to see us leading the way in these innovations. We should be proudly beating the drum for Welsh companies who are excelling in the field of health technology. Companies like Afon Technology in my region have recently unveiled new glucose sensors, assisting in the management of diabetes, which is a good-news story from south-east Wales. Residents across my region are struggling to access services, though, via the NHS app. The Welsh Government must ensure that our GPs are registered with the NHS app, as this can lead to efficiencies.

Electronic prescriptions only launched in Wales last week, and this is presently only available in Denbighshire. This is something of paramount importance when I'm speaking to pharmacies in my region; they stress that we must get this sorted. This would really help speed up the process, of course, of prescriptions, and save time and resources in the process, as has already been outlined. I'd like the Minister to answer in her response on just how long my constituents will have to wait for this vital improvement. It pains me to see us so far behind England, as has already been mentioned.

This month, we saw the UK Government bring forward the AI safety summit, the first ever global summit on AI. I truly believe that the potentials of AI can outweigh the negatives, if we ensure, of course, that it's safe. We should all be championing the role of technology and what it does, and the role it can play in delivering NHS services in Wales, and aim, as I said, to lead in this field, as we've seen that investment in this can lead to real savings in not only money, but time. Yet in Labour-run Wales, sadly this isn't the case, and we're just seeing weaknesses across the field.

The UK Government have highlighted the rapid expansion of the use of technology, including remote monitoring. Virtual wards drive efficiency, freeing up hospital space, clinician time, and busting those COVID backlogs. This Government must prioritise a one-stop digital platform to ensure that services are connected, appointments can be made, and records can be viewed. Even in Scotland, we're seeing that fast-growing companies will be able to trial new health products in clinical settings following a link-up between the Techscaler programme and the NHS. Participants in this programme, which provides expertise and support to fledgling businesses with high growth potential, are being offered access to the NHS regional test beds.

It's clear that Wales is lagging behind, and we in the Welsh Conservatives are committed to bringing forward positive solutions in this field. We want to see patients and NHS staff benefit from our latest technologies, so I urge everyone to support this motion today.

Thank you for bringing forward this debate. As you know, the Equality and Social Justice Committee has been scrutinising the e-prescribing programme through a data justice and social justice lens this year, and we've also, through the Economy, Trade and Rural Affairs Committee and the Health and Social Care Committee, gathered evidence from the Digital Health and Care Wales team a number of times, so it's really great that we're having this debate to pull all of this together today.

I think that the Digital Health and Care Wales team appreciated having a break from me grilling them from across the committee table yesterday when I sponsored their event with the Bevan Foundation to look at digital health and care in Wales. I'll be honest with you, at the start of the meeting, I was very blunt—not like me—in saying that I did not feel comfortable signing up for the new NHS Wales app without having more clarity, transparency and accountability about how our health data would be collected, stored and shared. I'm pleased to say that, by the end, I felt far more confident, they answered all of my questions, and I am planning to download it so that I can get my repeat prescription as soon as possible.

I want to say that I believe that this digital and data transformation really has the potential to save lives. A recent coroner's report for a patient in Betsi Cadwaladr health board who passed away because their records were lost stated—. The coroner stated in the prevention of future deaths report:

'Such referrals remain paper based and there is no indication as yet when these will be fully electronic. I am aware that this national strategy is ongoing but the time it is taking is putting patients' lives at risk.'

So, we seriously cannot, and I do not, underestimate how time sensitive this is, and my heart goes out to that family.

But I also want to say that that is why I am pleased that Digital Health and Care Wales are now rolling out four parts all at once, and they're not doing them one after another. We're having the NHS Wales app; the new primary care electronic prescription service—I believe, Minister, you used it for the first time last week—the national data resource, to analyse and plan health and care services; and finally, the single health record. That's what I've been particularly interested in, as that's what I think will help save lives. Some 35,000 people will have access to it, with more and more adding, because paramedics are going to become prescribers, we're going to have more pharmaceutical prescribers. And, as you know, I have been asking that patients will also be able to see who accesses their medical records, from a safeguarding perspective. And I was also asking them about the cyber security, which they reassured me about too.

I do just want to point out, though, that, from all the evidence that we've gathered, I'm actually pleased that we haven't rushed this in Wales, even though now we are really getting into it and four things are coming out at once. Evidence that we've heard from the Equality and Social Justice Committee made it very clear this has been really messed up in England twice. The first time when it was rolled out, the public heard about it through the media. They didn't feel confident, there was a huge level of mistrust, and many of them chose to opt out; it was a complete failure. Then, secondly, there have been huge issues between clinicians and GPs with the roll-out. They don't believe that NHSX, as it's called in England, has been engaging sufficiently, to understand that not all GPs—. GPs are the data controllers—that's a huge responsibility. They hold a tremendous amount of information and they didn't want to have to be forced into rolling it out before they were ready and before they'd gone through people's medical records and redacted what needed to be redacted.

I also raised concerns that the British Medical Association have raised about this, for us here in Wales, but I was assured that it's not going to be our entire medical records that will be available to us. There'll be a list, including medications, allergies and codes for conditions like diabetes or those needing renal care, but not detailed personal info, for example, about sexual health or mental health, which still carry a huge stigma in our society. And I hope that that meaningful dialogue will continue with GPs and physicians in terms of being able to code each of those conditions.

That is why I am supporting the Welsh Government amendment today, because the fact that over 200 GP practices are now using the NHS Wales app is very positive, and the planned onboarding of all practices by the end of March 2024 is realistic, considering how much GPs need to adapt. I also agree with the point where we say that emerging technologies, such as AI, must be done in a way that helps to ensure that it's a responsible, ethical, fair and safe adoption. It has to be done with us; it can't be done to us. People will just not engage otherwise. I want to be able to give my consent for my data to be used. I want to know when a decision is made using my data that will impact me or others, and I want to be able to withdraw it at any time, if I want to.

And finally, I did ask about the national data resource being hosted by Google, but, unfortunately, it's either Google, Amazon or Microsoft at the moment. That's just the world that we live in. And then, obviously, I read in the news yesterday that the UK Government has just sold out all its patients in England to Palantir. The US data analytics group has just secured a £330 million contract. You've got doctors and MPs raising concerns about the ethics of this, and there's been barely any scrutiny of that deal. So, once again, I just want to emphasise it may be that we're behind when it comes to the e-prescribing, but we're nearly there, and I am really relieved that I'm not a patient in England right now. They are seriously worried about what's going to be happening to their data under this UK Tory Government.

I call the Minister for Health and Social Services, Eluned Morgan.

Diolch yn fawr iawn. I welcome the opportunity to respond to today's debate and to demonstrate the continued progress being made on delivery of health and social care digital and technology improvements in such challenging times. I agree with much of the sentiment behind the main motion. It's very clear that digital and technology improvements offer a key opportunity for us to transform our health and social care services for the future. This was very clearly set out in our strategy, 'A Healthier Wales', and I can assure you I spend a significant amount of my time driving this important agenda. 

The role of digital and technology in improving services is both multifaceted and hugely valuable, delivering safer care and a more efficient health service, making a difference to people's lives across Wales and supporting our valuable workforce. We continue to make progress in several key areas. As many of you noted last week, I paid a visit to Lakeside Medical Centre in Rhyl and the Wellington Road pharmacy, where I saw at first hand the benefit that is being delivered by the electronic prescription service. And what many of you have noted again is that it allows GPs to send prescriptions securely online to the patient's choice of community pharmacy, without the need for a paper form. We think we're going to save about 40 million bits of paper and significant amounts of GP time as a result of this. You're quite right; it's taken too long to get here, but we're there, and obviously we'll be rolling it out across the whole of Wales from the new year. 

Will you take an intervention, Minister? 

Sure. 

Can I just say that I downloaded the NHS app onto my phone as soon as you announced the fact that it had been launched a few months ago, back in June? And I have to commend my own practice, the Kinmel Bay medical centre, because at the time, the services weren't initially available to patients, but they are now and are absolutely superb. The functionality of the app is excellent. Obviously, not all of the modules are yet turned on within it, but I think it has huge potential to make a lot of difference for those people who are able to use technology. There is, of course, an age barrier with technology, and I think it's important that we address that. And, of course, many of those who are intensive users of NHS services are older people, so there's an even bigger reason to make sure that they're well educated. Can I just ask what's being done to make sure that they're getting the information that they need so that they can feel confident in using this sort of technology going forward? 

One of the benefits in particular of the electronic prescribing service is that, actually, you don't need anything. You don't even need to carry a bit of paper around. You don't have to remember any of that. So, actually, this electronic prescribing means that if they've got Alzheimer's and they forget their prescription, it doesn't matter, because it will all be there automatically, and they'll go to their local chemist and it will all be done for them. So, in terms of the electronic prescribing part of it, I think it will be beneficial for the elderly population. 

Obviously, when it comes to apps, we're in a different place, and nobody is suggesting that there won't be alternative mechanisms. But, obviously, there are vast numbers of people who will benefit from using this, and we're not going to deny them that opportunity because there are some people who won't be able to use this. So, we're not switching anything off in that sense. Their opportunities to get repeat prescriptions and all those things will be there in the way it usually is. 

The service that I went to visit went live on 7 November, and I think this is the first major step in digitising the prescription process across all health settings in Wales, making it more efficient for clinicians and also patients. And I think it demonstrates how NHS Wales can work well with private sector companies, colleagues in NHS England and patients to implement digital services that deliver for the people of Wales. 

The new service is going to be rolled out from January, and is part of a wider commitment to introduce digital medicines and e-prescribing in all hospitals and primary care settings in Wales. Most importantly, e-prescribing will reduce medication errors and improve the safety of care delivery. It's quite surprising the number of times that people have to go to hospital because prescribing has been messed up and people have been given some kind of medicine that counteracts another. All of that now will be worked out on a system, and so you won't be able to prescribe things because it'll all be digitised. So, there's a safety element here I think as well that we mustn't forget. 

I'm also happy to update you that the NHS Wales app has now passed a major milestone and has been adopted by over 200 GP practices. By the end of March 2024, the app will be available across all GP surgeries. Patients will have the ability to request repeat prescriptions from their GPs. They'll be able to nominate their own community pharmacy preference and receive notifications of when a prescription is ready. The impact delivered by programmes like the NHS Wales app and electronic prescribing I think is essential to the modernisation of our health service, giving citizens easier and more convenient access to their health information and essential services and freeing up clinician time to help more patients be treated faster.

Now, these programmes are first-hand evidence of the success of digital innovation in NHS Wales, tackling problems in a joined-up strategic way while ensuring a safe and ethical implementation. Now, I recognise we’ve got a long way to go; it’s not going fast enough. We are putting huge efforts into this. But what I don’t want to do is to go too fast and mess it up. Because I think if you lose the confidence of people using the system it’s very difficult to get it back, and we know, for example, in England, in 2013, the NHS abandoned a system. It cost them £10 billion, the biggest IT failure ever seen. Now, this is a big deal. I don’t want that to happen in Wales. I’d rather test it. That’s what we’ve done with the app. We’ve gone slowly, we’ve tested it and we’ve tweaked it, we’ve changed it, we’ve tested it again, and I think that is absolutely the way to go. And really importantly, we’re doing this planning of what the app can do with the people who are using the app, and I think that's critical. So whilst we continue to make important progress, that’s not to say that I’m complacent or that the job is complete. There’s much more to do to maximise the opportunities for people in Wales.

Now, this speaks directly to the principles and intentions outlined in our digital and data strategy for health and social care, which I published in the summer. Somebody asked, I think, about the cancer situation, and how we do cancer and IT. Well, we’ve got the cancer informatics programme—that’s had £7 million. Somebody else mentioned the fact that we’re still using faxes in Wales. Well, you might have heard the shadow chancellor today referring to the fact that 600 fax machines are still being used in England. We all need to get rid of our fax machines. We know and we’re on it. All of this, of course, is dependent on money—money which is very, very tight, and I’m afraid that the budget today hasn’t given us any comfort in terms of any additional money coming either.

Now, our strategy sets out our commitment to delivering a modernised health and care service. In this seventy-fifth year of a health service born in Wales, we continue to develop it to be fit for the twenty-first century. It’s important that we have to deliver those changes, those innovations, constantly. And I’ve heard very clearly the need to reach out to ethnic minorities by John, and we are, of course, giving lots of support to people who struggle with English in terms of language support.

We know that the more information that patients and health professionals have, the better decisions, diagnosis and health results are likely to be. The Wales nursing care record has been introduced successfully to 80 per cent of all in-patient adult wards, and the intention is that the rest will be using the service by the end of March of next year. This has allowed staff to record, share and see information about patients electronically across hospital wards and health board areas. It has standardised the information gathered about individuals in hospitals, removing variations across health boards. 

Somebody suggested that we should allow a thousand flowers to bloom, and allow people to be innovative. Now, part of our problem is that, actually, we've let a lot of people be innovative, and that's a good thing, but at some point we need these systems to talk to each other. So, we've got to make sure that the innovation also meets a one-Wales system. So, that is something that I'm very clear needs to be done in future. 

I saw the benefits with my own eyes on a visit to Neath Port Talbot Hospital in the last month, and it was good to see the Deputy Llywydd there too.

The Welsh Government is already making progress in promoting a safe and ethical approach to AI adoption. We've established a cross-health and social care group of stakeholders and specialists in AI technology and clinical delivery, and this group has a remit to identify, develop and promote the use of AI in a safe and ethical regulatory environment. So, I heard what lots of you said about the need for regulatory prudence when it comes to AI. 

Minister, I've given you a lot of flexibility because of the intervention, but you do need to come to a conclusion now. 

Thank you very much. Just finally to say that I think it's important, when it comes to AI, that we do cross-UK Government working and it was a shame that we didn't get a formal invitation to the AI summit that was held recently. Diolch yn fawr. 

And I call on Gareth Davies to reply to the debate. 

Diolch, Deputy Llywydd. And I just want to start my remarks in closing today by thanking you for visiting Rhyl in my constituency on Friday to see the roll-out of e-prescriptions at Lakeside surgery and Wellington Road Pharmacy. Talking about invitations, my only regret, however, is that an invitation wasn't extended to myself to join you in the roll-out, which I indeed would have embraced with open arms. I know Dr Farhan Mohideen and Barbara McEvoy very well in my constituency and it would have been a pleasure to join them, but I digress from the subject. 

But the uptake of digital technology has had a profound effect on the national health service and allows clinicians to do their job safely, reliably and efficiently. The COVID-19 pandemic greatly accelerated the speed in which modern technological solutions have been adopted by the NHS across the UK. The use of virtual appointments became commonplace and the use of technology such as the NHS COVID-19 app were adopted by most. Most people became accustomed to the incorporation of digital technology in healthcare. The Welsh Government, however, have been too slow in the adoption of technology that will help to unburden an overstretched health service and cut down waiting times. 

Overall, 53 per cent of people would like to frequently use the internet for health-related activities in the future—1.3 times higher than those who would have done so since the pandemic began. This demonstrates the importance of the roll-out of the NHS app, which has been unacceptably slow and still isn't being used in 48.2 per cent of GP practices. This is frankly shocking that five years after the NHS app was first made available in England, the roll-out in Wales has only just passed the halfway mark.

After visiting the emergency department at Ysbyty Glan Clwyd over the summer, I saw first-hand how out-of-date technology is hindering the operation of hospitals in Wales like Glan Clwyd Hospital. Staff told me that a bed management system is ideally required to replace the dashboard system, which is constantly refreshing, but the technology isn't there due primarily to the cost. The lack of investment in modern digital technology is becoming an impediment to clinical practice. There have also been reports of fax machines in use and various tools that are not in keeping with a twenty-first century health service.

After the AI safety summit, which was chaired by our Prime Minister, Rishi Sunak, it is important we recognise the danger that artificial intelligence could pose and the importance of the government's responsibility to mitigate the harmful effects of AI. The benefits are limitless and Wales should be kept at the forefront and be pioneers of AI technology. AI is already used within the NHS across the UK to analyse brain scans and read x-ray results. The Welsh Government should ensure that the potential utility of AI is not squandered. We have two-year NHS waits in Wales, at 27,041 compared to just 227 in England, which was referenced at Prime Minister's questions this afternoon by the Prime Minister, in highlighting that England have nearly abolished their two-year waits since COVID, while it's still an acute issue here in Wales, unfortunately.

You say that we've squandered the opportunities, but do you not recognise that NHS England has squandered previous opportunities by rushing into this and not taking the public with them? And that when in 2021 they launched this GP data planning and research platform, it had to be postponed after over a million people opted out, saying that they were not satisfied that their data was going to be used for commercial purposes and they didn't know how it was going to be used. So, would you at least recognise that, particularly in the context of who they’ve awarded the contract to yesterday—to Palantir?

I recognise, of course, the difficulties in delivering some technology, particularly as technology is a constantly moving subject, which constantly develops, but I don't think, at the same time, that that should kill ambition. We have to be thinking forwards, we have to be thinking about tomorrow, we have to be thinking of the technology that's coming along next year and the year after that, and how the NHS systems and health systems in place can be embedded within those to represent a modern society. So, where there have been issues in the past, I believe that that shouldn't kill the ambition to have a system that follows modern technology and best represents people's needs in a modern society.

The Welsh Government need to give our NHS staff the tools they need to do their jobs and replace the outdated technology and software that have been referred to numerous times during the debate. The Welsh Government needs to rapidly accelerate the roll-out of e-prescriptions and the NHS app, which is woefully behind the roll-out in Conservative-run health services in England. This is holding our NHS back and punishing the people of Wales. The budgetary excuses for these failings are getting tiresome, and the evidence invariably points to failures in the running of the health service and the decisions made by the Government.

To close, Deputy Llywydd, I would like to stress how increased spending on digital technologies and AI leads not just to better health outcomes but makes financial sense too. The Welsh Government's mindset with health spending is 'penny wise, pound foolish'. Modern digital technology is not just an expense, it's an investment. For every £1 the UK's health service spends on technology, between £3.50 and £4 is generated in savings, as Russell George noted in his opening remarks. For all those reasons, I urge Members to vote with the motion tonight.

The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is objection. I will therefore defer voting under this item until voting time.

Item 6 this afternoon is the Plaid Cymru debate on the private rented sector, and I call on Mabon ap Gwynfor to move the motion.

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd, and I move the motion formally. Back in June 2021, a motion was passed in the Senedd that declared that there was a housing emergency. Over two years later, things have deteriorated, with the cost-of-living crisis caused by the shocking mismanagement of the economy by the Conservatives making the housing crisis even worse.

And let's be clear, while there has been a significant increase in our living costs, with the prices of fuel, food and goods increasing significantly, this is nothing compared to the huge increase that has been seen in the cost of having a roof over our heads. The cost of living in a house, whether we are renting or paying a mortgage, is the highest cost that we face, and this increase is what hurts people the most.

But despite this obvious and undeniable fact, it surprises me on a daily basis that leading Members of other parties are always calling for the reduction of council tax or income tax, taxes that all exist in order to maintain essential front-line services, but wring their hands when someone talks about reducing housing costs, which transfers money to private accounts, not for the public benefit.

Let us be clear, the intention of this motion is to protect the most vulnerable people who are at the most immediate risk of facing homelessness. And the sad truth is that the number of people presenting themselves as homeless has increased enormously. Almost 2,000 people are now put into temporary accommodation every month in Wales. There are now nearly 12,000 people in temporary accommodation, with a quarter of them being children. And let's remind ourselves, temporary accommodation is not a holiday. There are no kitchens to prepare food, no quiet rooms to do homework in or escape to, and there is no freedom to come and go.

I note that the Government has tabled an amendment, and that amendment states several good things that we would be eager to agree with and happy to agree with. One of the measures that the Government has introduced through its co-operation with Plaid Cymru is the provision of support for mortgage holders, and this will certainly stop people from becoming homeless.

While the Green and White Papers on housing are to be welcomed as a step towards a long-term solution, people need help now. The financial coffers are going to run dry and the Government is looking for more cuts, and so there is no salvation available through any sources of funding.

This Government also complains, justifiably, about the failure of the Government in Westminster to increase the local housing allowance, mentioning the cost of the Conservatives in London, and what the Conservatives in London are doing and their failure in this regard. But I do welcome the Chancellor's announcement today regarding the LHA, that there will be some increase in benefits to ensure that people can reach up to 30 per cent of the least expensive housing. But this step, while welcome, is entirely inadequate. The Government here also says that it would like to increase the housing support grant, which ensures support for people who are facing homelessness, but complains always that it can't do that because it doesn't have the funding.

So, financially, this Government says that there is nothing that it can do to help private renters in Wales and that the Tories are to blame for everything. But there are steps that this Government can take to help Welsh renters. It can freeze rents and prevent evictions as a short-term solution. This is something that it can do today, and something that would have exactly the same effect, if not more, as all the financial subsidies that I mentioned previously.

Now, I note that the Conservatives are calling for action to prevent landlords from leaving the market. It's worth noting that the number of houses that are rented privately in Wales has doubled as a percentage of the housing stock over the last 20 years. Back in 1979, 30 per cent of Wales's housing stock was public housing stock, but, of course, Thatcher came along and introduced her right-to-buy and buy-to-let schemes. The percentage of public housing stock has now been halved to around 15 per cent of our total housing stock. Twenty years ago, just over 7 per cent of the housing market here was private rented housing. Today, that is closer to 15 per cent—almost the same figure as the public housing stock. This is not a coincidence, but a purposeful action, dating back to narrow ideological policies that were introduced by Thatcher 40 years ago and that have led to these emergencies. It is not a right to buy that we need here in Wales, but a much more basic right: the right to have a roof over our heads, the right to live with dignity.

Now, not all landlords have been raising their rents—it's important to note that. Indeed, a large number of landlords in Wales are conscientious people who care about the welfare of their tenants, and have not increased their rents. In that respect, these people have nothing to worry about, because they are conscientious landlords. But some are increasing their rents dramatically. Indeed, Shelter has shown evidence that some landlords are increasing their rents by 100 per cent—doubling their rents—and we need to take action to prevent this from happening and tackle this specifically. Some landlords let their houses out through letting agents. This is more problematic. Some say that they are raising their rents in order to bring their rents in line with the local average. Now, this is an argument that I cannot accept. What this argument says, in terms of bringing rents in line, is that they want to increase their rents to increase them for their own sake, not because of inflation, or because of increased costs, but just because they want to increase the rent. And more often than not, those letting agencies, which sometimes have hundreds of properties under their control, set the local average. This is completely unacceptable, and there should be much stricter rules on letting agencies in order to prevent them from controlling the housing market and, effectively, gaining a monopoly in any local area.

One argument that we've heard many times is that landlords have mortgages that they have to pay, and that their costs have also increased. Of course, I have more sympathy for this argument. But evidence shows that over two thirds of landlords who don't have a mortgage have been increasing their rents. We need a long-term and clear vision in order to tackle the housing crisis. We need to build houses under public ownership on a massive scale, and we need to do so in partnership with new financiers, as they do in the Netherlands on public land. We need to look at programmes such as the cost rental schemes in Switzerland and Ireland, and buying back houses into public ownership, as Gwynedd Council is doing.

But people are looking to us here for a short-term solution to this crisis that they face today. That is why we are calling for the Government to use the powers that it has in order to do what it can now, and freeze rents and prevent evictions this winter. Thank you.

I have selected the two amendments to the motion. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be deselected. I call on the Minister for Climate Change to move formally amendment 1, tabled in the name of Lesley Griffiths.

Formally.

I call on Sam Rowlands to move amendment 2, tabled in the name of Darren Millar.

Diolch, Deputy Presiding Officer, and I move amendment 2 in the name of Darren Millar, my colleague. Thank you to Plaid Cymru for bringing forward this debate today; I'm delighted to be able to take part in it. The points that we've been asked to note in the original motion are certainly part of the wide range of evidence that we are seeing here in Wales of a housing crisis. We've already heard how homelessness has reached record levels in Wales. Very recently, in July 2023, there were over 170 individuals sleeping rough on our streets here in Wales. In February of this year, the number of dependent children under the age of 16 placed in temporary accommodation reached over 3,000 for the first time. We also recognise that, in the last financial year, only 4,500 new dwellings were started. That's down 19 per cent on the year before, and it's less than half the 12,000 that Welsh Government claims need to be built every single year. We also know that around 100,000 Welsh homes are currently vacant; that's including tens of thousands of long-term empty homes. All of these statistics are shocking, but they're not surprising, because we've been in this Chamber, in the short two and a half years I've been in this Senedd, time and time again, rattling off similar statistics. We don't seem to be getting a huge amount of progress in dealing with it.

Sadly, the motions I've heard today so far from Plaid Cymru and the written motion from Labour, in my view, won't deal with the crisis either. We've heard directly, so far, a call for a rent freeze, and Welsh Labour are welcoming a commitment to publish a White Paper setting out proposals on the potential to establish a system of fair rent, but the evidence seems to be clear that rent freezes or rent caps do not work. We've seen what's happened in Scotland, as an example. The Scottish Government's policy incorrectly places the blame on landlords for the cost-of-living crisis, and the Scottish Property Federation claimed that Scottish Government had, in their words, 'singled out' landlords for the cost-of-living crisis, despite a plethora of other issues happening in the UK and around the world.

We know that Edinburgh, just this last month, has formally declared a housing emergency, clearly a sign that the Scottish National Party's rent control policies are not working. According to a survey by the Scottish Association of Landlords, since the introduction of rent controls, 17 per cent of landlords have sold or are considering selling their rental properties. Now, some people across benches in this Chamber may welcome the fact that landlords are selling up their properties, but that is doing no good for those people who need those rental properties.

The recently introduced rent freeze in Scotland has, according to Zoopla, led to rents north of the border for new lets rising more than anywhere else in the UK. If rent trends in Wales followed Scotland, the National Residential Landlords Association estimate Welsh tenants would pay 16 per cent more in rent each month within a decade. So, it's clear to me that that is not the right solution for dealing with the crisis that we are all facing.

Plaid Cymru also asked for a measure to ban evictions this winter, and there seems more evidence that that doesn't seem to work. So, the Welsh Government applied a six-month no-fault notice period for existing tenancies that cover occupation contracts under the Renting Homes (Wales) Act 2016 from 1 June 2023, and we know that landlords are now anxious about who they're going to let their properties to. Seventy-five per cent of landlords in Wales are saying they'll become more selective, with this having a detrimental impact, potentially, on the most vulnerable tenants, who may find it even more difficult now to find a place to live.

A study by Assist Inventories of thousands of landlords found that 45 per cent of landlords plan to move away from long-term tenancies, with a further 41 per cent saying they would consider moving away from long-term tenancies. This is no good for the tenants that we’re trying to see supported, and I and my colleagues in the Conservative Party have consulted extensively with the private let sector and know for a fact that many are leaving because of the Renting Homes (Wales) Act 2016, and, in particular, the six-month notice requirement. The reality is that six months usually becomes around 12 months, because some contract holders being asked to leave are being encouraged by charities and local authorities to challenge notices in court, and this can result in a whole year of no rent to those landlords. Now, it’s not always easy to sorry for landlords because of the way in which they are, in my view, wrongly villainised far too often. The vast majority of landlords are good people trying to support their tenants in the best possible way, and for them to not have 12 months’ worth of rent is not just bad for the landlord, it’s even worse for the tenants that they are trying to support.

So, we know that the policies being advocated here today do not work. We should not be villainising private landlords; we should be working constructively with that sector to ensure that those tenants are being properly supported. We know that the NRLA want to co-operate; we know that the sector wants to co-operate.

So, very, very briefly, Deputy Presiding Officer—

You've gone past your time.

I will very, very briefly just outline some of the things that we should be doing. We should be allocating land owned by public bodies for housing development, we should streamline the process for affordable housing applications, and we should be tackling at pace—I know there’s some work on this, but—tackling at pace the troublesome phosphate regulations.

So, there are plenty of things that we can get on with to make sure more houses are being made available, and that positive co-operation with the sector—

Sam, you need to conclude now.

—will ensure that we see reform of Rent Smart Wales, reviewing the Renting Homes (Wales) Act and scrapping the threat of rent caps. The current approach is not working and we need to work with the sector, not against it. Thanks for your patience.

Well, we’ve heard the voice of the landlords in the Chamber, so let's hear the voice of the people who are really suffering this winter, because the calls in our motion today constitute one part of the actions needed by the Welsh Government to support the people of Wales who are facing a hard winter, and it's not the landlords who are facing that hard winter. This is a winter that will be even harder than last year, as much of the support that was available from the Government has disappeared, any savings have already been used, and over the last two years energy costs have risen 49 per cent, while food prices have increased by 28 per cent, and rent has increased more rapidly in Wales than in any other part of the United Kingdom. In their recent webinar on housing costs, Dr Steffan Evans from the Bevan Foundation said that the foundation's research shows that the high cost of rent is pushing people into poverty. It’s a fact: 19 per cent of people in Wales are living in poverty, if you don't take housing costs into account; if you include housing costs when measuring poverty levels in Wales, that figure increases to 21 per cent. That's about 50,000 people.

In addition, when people are facing such a crisis and hardship, it's essential to implement measures that will ease the pressure. Plaid Cymru is calling on the Welsh Government to take urgent action this winter. Not doing so will lead to a deepening of the harms caused by poverty, harms that don't just happen over the winter, but will affect people throughout their lives, with all of the implications of that for their well-being and the well-being of society. And due to the obvious link therefore between the housing crisis and the cost-of-living crisis, breaking that link by freezing rents would be sensible and effective step, and we must remember that this dual crisis affects certain groups of people specifically. Those who are renting, according to the Bevan Foundation, are more likely to experience financial hardship, with almost half of them borrowing money from at least one source and going without food or cutting back so that they can afford the rent—the essentials, they're cutting down on those essentials. And we all know what is at stake when people find it difficult to pay their rent: people lose the roof over their heads. We cannot allow this to happen in the coldest months of the winter.

The cost of not taking action in the area of housing by freezing rents and preventing evictions is high—yes, in human terms, of course, and also in terms of the cost to the public purse in terms of healthcare and welfare, for example. In its recent report on the impact of the cost-of-living crisis, Public Health Wales stated that 94 per cent of the 2,000 people that it surveyed said that their living costs had increased. Twenty-three per cent said that they did not believe that they would be able to cope with that, and 44 per cent said that rising living costs were having a direct negative effect on their mental health, and 19 per cent said that it had had a negative effect on their physical health. And this causes long-term effects too, of course. 

Rebecca Hill, programme director of public health policy at Public Health Wales, has said that the cost-of-living crisis is increasing inequalities and therefore putting people's health at risk at every stage of their lives. And several reports have shown that households with children are among those facing the greatest pressure. Thirty-two per cent of those who responded to the annual Children in Wales survey felt that housing was one of the five issues having the greatest impact on them—32 per cent this year, compared to just 2 per cent in 2022. And we're seeing that increase in terms of how this is affecting people reflecting the dual crisis of the cost-of-living crisis and the housing crisis. The report quotes one young person who spoke about the constant fear of being kicked out by landlords. Constant fear.

According to the Bevan Foundation’s figures, 14 per cent of the population of Wales—14 per cent of the population of Wales—are worried about losing their homes. The increase in rental costs has a  disproportionate impact on people on lower incomes, disabled people, and people with children in their households. Freezing rents represents a means of preventing socioeconomic divisions within our communities from deepening.

For too many people in Wales, the price of keeping a roof over their heads is financial hardship. Our calls to prevent evictions and to freeze rents are one part of the way in which we can help save them from that, save them from the darkness and anxiety of the winter months, by implementing a policy that will save them from the biting cold, save them from the disastrous effect of unaffordable rents and from the nightmare of homelessness, which will save costs relating to illness and homelessness for the Government, and, more importantly, will save the dignity and well-being of some tens of thousands of our citizens. I urge you, for their sake, to support our motion. 

The only good news I've so far noticed in the autumn statement is that the local housing allowance, which has been frozen since 2020, is now going to be restored to 30 per cent of the local private sector housing rents, the average. Because freezing the local housing allowance during a time of galloping inflation has had devastating consequences for any low-paid worker who is not lucky enough to be living in social rented housing.

We should be grateful to the Bevan Foundation, who did some mystery shopping of rental adverts that were put out during two weeks in February. They found that only 32 properties advertised across Wales were available at the local housing rate. That just tells you how unaffordable anything in the private sector has become. So, that was just 1.2 per cent of the market, an absolutely miserable amount, and 16 local authorities didn't have a single property available at the local housing rate.

One of the worst places for this problem has been in Cardiff, for reasons we don't need to analyse. Partly because of the pressure of people coming into Cardiff and a booming economy, the shortage of affordable housing is huge—absolutely huge. So, if we look at the gap that there is in Cardiff, there were 14 one-bedroomed properties available that somebody on the local housing allowance could have afforded. And the problem just gets worse if you go from two-bedroomed, to three-bedroomed to four-bedroomed properties. The largest families were having to find £252 from the rest of their income, from universal credit or other benefits they might be receiving. And that obviously meant a massive, massive boost in the demand for foodbanks, because the money they're supposed to be spending on keeping their families fed and warm was having to be spent on keeping a roof over their heads. Just think about it. And obviously, the consequences of simply not being able to maintain this balancing act is large numbers of people falling into rent arrears and eventually being bundled out of their homes with no alternatives. And this falls onto the local authorities, who are obliged to house people in families and other vulnerable people, but this is completely unfunded, and the consequences of that are really, really severe on all local authorities.

The barriers to anybody endeavouring to find a property to rent were hinted at by Sam Rowlands; you know, these 75 per cent of landlords who are going to be more selective on who they're taking in, so they want people to have guarantors, they want credit checks, minimum income checks, and professional-only requirements. And, at least in Cardiff, deposits equivalent to more than one month's rent are available through the Cardiff housing service to ensure that people are properly housed, but imagine how terrifying it would be if you have a child and you are faced with being evicted from your private sector house and you are forced to go into homeless accommodation, with everything that goes with that. This is completely devastating.

Empty homes, obviously, is one of the things that we endeavour to do our best to do something about. There is a huge amount of money available to enable people to allow the Welsh Government to bring those properties back into use, bring them up to a decent standard and lease them to people on the housing waiting list for at least a seven-year term. So, that is available to anybody who has an empty property who doesn't know what to do with it or doesn't wish to go on with the business of renting if they don't want to sell. I don't think it's a problem if 17 per cent of landlords in Scotland have sold because it's either been bought by another private landlord or it's been bought by a family who need a home. Either way, that's a good thing as long as it's not being left empty for speculative purposes. What we don't want is people moving—.

Will you take an intervention?

Yes, I'm happy to take an intervention.

Thank you for that. You just made the point that I was trying to make that many people on these benches don't see a problem with 17 per cent of landlords looking to sell up because perhaps you don't value the role that landlords have to play in supporting tenants.

I would agree with you that some landlords, many landlords, are good landlords who want to do the best by their tenants, but to say the vast majority are, that's not my experience, I'm afraid, in my constituency. I have numerous problems with people being treated appallingly and with landlords who are getting away with not complying with Rent Smart Wales.

So, I suppose my final point is: I want to know what reforms you want of Rent Smart Wales, because I want to give them more powers, so that they can march in and just put the padlock on these properties that are not safe and are not compliant, and I fear that what Sam Rowlands and the Conservative benches want is something where it's putting even more people at risk. So, this is a really serious problem and I'm very glad that we are going to have an inquiry into how we're going to manage fair rents.

My contribution today is going to focus on students. As you see in the motion, there is a specific commitment there and it is important that we highlight it, because often, they get lost in this dialogue. And you could be forgiven, walking around Cardiff and seeing a luxury student accommodation block with all singing, all dancing facilities, for thinking that students live in luxury here in Cardiff, but the reality is very, very different. It's almost seen as usual or a rite of passage that you have to put up with substandard accommodation that is often damp, and also, vermin, rats, are just common practice.

We have to remember that for these young people who often are in this kind of accommodation, especially when you're talking about numerous people perhaps crowded into one house, this might be their first time living independently; it can be their first time away from home; and sometimes, for international students, it can be their first time in a new country, with a new language, and it can be very, very isolating, and you're tied into these contracts or sign them not knowing what your rights are. I know that the National Union of Students Wales have done a lot of work in terms of raising awareness, but unfortunately, not a lot of things have changed in terms of student accommodation from my time campaigning 20 years ago—I don't like to admit that—when we were campaigning for the rights of students. It seems—. Well, when you look at the statistics, it just seems to be getting worse rather than better.

And aside from tuition fees, accommodation is one of the largest costs that a student will incur during their time at university, if you consider that rents have spiralled to take up to 60 per cent of the average UK maintenance package, and it's also important to note that many students do not receive even this level of funding. For example, Master's and PhD students across the UK often receive far less maintenance support to cover their living costs, and further education or international students often receive none at all. And furthermore, with rent, energy bills, and other housing costs rising at an unprecedented rate, and student loans and grants not increasing, students are struggling, with almost a quarter of students in Wales saying that they had been unable to find suitable, affordable accommodation in the 2022-23 academic year.

We've often cited figures from the study by NUS and Shelter Cymru, from two years ago now, that showed that students were reporting damp or mould and reporting problems with rats and vermin. Their warnings were there on the BBC, ITV, everything, but none of this seems to have changed, because if you look at NUS's most recent figures from 2023, 32 per cent of students studying in Wales were unable to pay their rent; 36 per cent of students were unable to pay their bills; 8 per cent of Welsh students experienced homelessness in the past 12 months; and, 96 per cent of students were cutting back on spending, with almost a third left with just £50 a month to live on after paying rent and bills. Student accommodation prices have increased by 61 per cent in the last decade.

The impact of this is so detrimental in terms of those students' both physical and mental well-being, as well, of course, as impacting on their academic achievements. Almost half of students and learners indicated that their mental health is worse this year than it was last year, with the cost of living and worries about money being the main drivers. Almost three in five students say that the cost of living is having a moderate to major impact on their mental health. Thirty-two per cent of students have considered leaving their course, many have, and from those 32 per cent, I think it is very telling that they're most likely to be care-experienced students. In terms of the long-term impact this then has on those students, many of them are on courses where they can't also work, because of their long hours—I'm especially thinking about some of our student nurses. We desperately need many of these key roles and yet, they're in university and unable to keep up with their studies or be able to perform to the best of their abilities, just because they can't afford something as simple as a safe and warm home that allows them to be able to study.

We can't allow our students to be ignored for another winter. We need to ensure that we're not just talking about these issues time and time again. I don't want to be supporting students in another 20 years' time. They are exploited. We need to ensure that they get, at the very least, accommodation that is suitable to help them, in an environment that should be nurturing and developing them for the future, not neglecting them and letting them down, as is currently happening.

The cost to rent in the majority of the private rental sector is shocking, with massive increases that are uncontrolled. Public sector housing is reviewed annually and controlled sensitively. We heard on the Local Government and Housing Committee how a three-bedroomed house in Swansea costs £1,000 to rent, but the local housing allowance covers just £500-worth of that, and I don't know where people are expected to find the money when all the bills have gone through the roof under the cost-of-living crisis. And bedroom tax is still an added issue.

Regarding no-fault evictions, Wales protects tenants better than in England, where the Government announced in October that a ban on no-fault evictions has been indefinitely delayed until after the court system is reformed, which will take years. In Wales, a six-month notice has to be given now, and one cannot be issued until six months after you move in. This also offers protection to those living in houses of multiple occupation. The Welsh Government has published a Green Paper on fair rents and rent controls in line with the co-operation agreement, and evidence from that exercise will support the development of a White Paper next year, which, as part of the programme for government, will put forward proposals on the potential to establish a system of fair rents and approaches to make homes affordable for those on low incomes.

I want to raise an issue regarding HMOs: are the planning regulations strong enough so that tenants have enough living and outdoor amenity space? I heard of a property converted into living spaces for 14 tenants that had very little shared living and no garden amenity, and I think that needs looking at, going forward.

Most landlords know it makes commercial sense to keep homes in fairly good condition, although many will try to keep costs to a minimum and cut corners. However, it is different for students across the UK. Landlords do not seem to have the same care because of the yearly turnover, and students are willing to accept poorer accommodation because of a lack of availability and desperation. Universities are oversubscribing to courses without ensuring there's enough accommodation for them. A relative of mine was offered student accommodation at £850 a month. Course fees next year there are going up to £17,000 a year. For international students, that course is £34,000 a year. When grants are £14,000 or £19,000 a year, you're £10,000 short for a student. That student is now leaving that course. I've heard stories also of students facing leaky roofs, damp, carbon monoxide poisoning and open sewage. And that student, who was offered £850 student accommodation, tried to get somewhere private to rent, but it was unaffordable.

Many private sector landlords are also moving to Airbnbs as they can get more money and they're not regulated. So, that needs to happen as soon as possible, the regulation. I also believe the lack of pet-friendly properties in the rental sector and pet-friendly temporary accommodation are exacerbating the housing crisis in Wales, and pet rescue centres are full. Projects from the Dogs Trust have shown that a key barrier to being able to have access to temporary accommodation and find suitable move-on housing is a lack of pet-friendly options. The blockage is exacerbating the current number of people living in temporary accommodation.

The Freedom project is another important service that the Dogs Trust provide, supporting those fleeing domestic abuse. There's a strong link between abuse to pets and abuse to people in the context of domestic abuse, with perpetrators often using the bond between pets and the victim by physically abusing or threatening to harm the animal in order to intimidate and control their partner. Families and individuals fleeing domestic abuse are usually unable to take their pets with them into refuge, so in many cases they're reluctant to leave their home until they know there's somewhere safe for their pets. Dogs can have a huge impact on a person's quality of life, providing companionship, a sense of purpose and love, and, in some cases, a reason to live. I would like to see increased protection for tenants who own pets in Wales.

Finally, regarding the Conservative amendment to build 12,000 homes a year, we need investment in public services to back this up. Following over a decade of austerity, we need to build back up resources in planning, drainage, highways, public transport funding, provision of health and education facilities. There's a perception that council tax covers all this, but it only accounts for 30 per cent of council services, never mind all the rest of the public services required. We need more affordable social houses, and we need more affordable homes—that's what we're talking about: homes—with public amenities around them. Thank you.

My electoral region covers six separate counties, with a combined population of almost 650,000 people. Within this area, there was not a single rented property to be found by the Bevan Foundation in February 2023 whose rent would be covered in full by the local housing allowance. It is an utterly damning indictment of the scale of our housing crisis that affordable rented housing is completely non-existent for some in the most deprived communities in our country.

Furthermore, the squeeze on current tenants is relentless. A recent survey by the Shelter housing charity has shown that around seven out of 10 mortgage-free landlords have hiked rents on new rental agreements in the past year, despite being unaffected by interest rate rises. Zoopla has also estimated that rental affordability in the UK is at its worst for a decade, and increases in rent outstrip wage growth. For us as politicians, this emphatically underlines that remaining on the current trajectory with respect to housing policy is simply unconscionable. We need radical alternatives to the status quo before even more people are driven out of the housing sector entirely.

The example of Scotland's rent cap should be mentioned, and I'd like to reflect on the lessons that have been learnt since that policy was introduced in 2022. As the housing spokesperson of the Scottish Greens recently stated, the policy has been instrumental in giving people stability and security during the cost-of-living crisis and saving individuals hundreds of pounds. Furthermore, she rightly stressed the fact that implementing controls of this nature is bringing Scotland in line with European norms, where robust policies to regulate the private rented sector have been in place for some time, leading to far less volatility compared to what we see across the UK. In this respect, the SNP are right to view the policy as a stepping stone, as they intend to introduce a new housing Bill next year, to implement long-term rent controls and strengthen tenant rights. This isn't to say that the policy has been perfect. Scotland-wide tenants union Living Rent has highlighted loopholes in the system that are often disadvantaging prospective tenants.

If we were to introduce a scheme here in Wales, therefore, we would need to ensure that both existing tenants and prospective tenants benefit equally. I don't think anyone is pretending that a rent freeze policy is a silver bullet, and by its very nature, it is a short-term measure for an issue that demands a more comprehensive solution, which must include, as Mabon has already intimated, a substantial upscaling in the housing stock. But, at the very least, it can provide much-needed security for people during a time of year that can often be an inherently uncertain time.

Secure and affordable housing is a basic necessity of life. As things stand, it is a luxury that is out of reach for far too many people in our society. But here in Wales, we can set a better example. We can show that we have the right priorities and that our political class is truly investing in supporting the people with the greatest need, rather than giving leg-ups to the already well-off. It is for this reason that I urge Members across the Chamber to support our motion. Diolch yn fawr.

I call on the Minister for Climate Change, Julie James.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Thanks to everyone who's contributed to the debate and for the opportunity to discuss this important subject on which we are already working very closely with Plaid Cymru as part of the co-operation agreement.

We are of course in a cost-of-living crisis, and nowhere is this felt more acutely than in the private rented sector. Tenants have faced unprecedented rises in rents, which, along with increases to all other household bills, we know are causing financial difficulties for many. I do not, however, support a snap rent freeze, and I have been very clear about this on a large number of occasions. We've already a clear programme of work to address this issue. As Members will be aware, the co-operation agreement with Plaid Cymru contains a commitment to produce a White Paper on proposals around a right to adequate housing, including fair rents and affordability for those on low incomes. We recently consulted on a Green Paper that asked about, amongst other things, the effects that rent controls would have on the rental market in Wales. This motion calls on the Welsh Government to implement the most extreme form of rent control by completely freezing all rents. It would be completely irresponsible to introduce a rent freeze without a clear understanding of what impact this might have on the sector.

A rent freeze would cloud the important work that we are currently doing, as part of the co-operation agreement with Plaid Cymru, in trying to map out the rental sector in Wales, as we establish what effects different models of rent control would have on the sector. I've been very clear that I will not put forward proposals in the forthcoming White Paper without a firm evidence base, and rolling back on this would question the legitimacy of the work that's already been carried out. Would landlords and agents be willing to take part and share evidence about their businesses if they believed that this Government isn't willing to listen and will just steam ahead and ban all rental increases regardless, without any evidence or fully understanding the consequences? We really should learn from the emerging evidence. The Bevan Foundation work did look at properties being advertised as available for rent, but not necessarily those that have been, and continue to be, let at LHA rates. So, we do need to be a bit cautious, as this is not fully representative of the PRS market. 

In Scotland, where indeed there has been a complete rent freeze followed by a cap of 3 per cent in most cases since April 2023, this hasn't seen a corresponding drop in rental prices in Scotland, with the Office for National Statistics's latest report showing that rents in Scotland have increased by 6.2 per cent in the 12 months to October 2023, which is higher than the average for the UK over the same period. This is despite that period being covered by a rent freeze followed by a rent cap. This is just not the magic bullet that some may like to think it is. Imposition of a temporary rent control measure without robust evidence across Wales could have significant unintended consequences, including more landlords exiting the market and actually increasing the risk of homelessness. It would also not prevent new lets from being marketed at increased prices, but it would only prevent landlords increasing rents for those already-tenanted properties, which may not have seen significant increases to date. 

I'm also not willing to support a call for a freeze on evictions this winter. Members I'm sure will remember that the Renting Homes (Wales) Act 2016 brought in a minimum notice period of six months for no-fault evictions, which means that anyone served an eviction notice as early as today couldn't be evicted until late May at the very earliest, which is well after the winter period.  

Turning to student accommodation, this is protected by fitness for human habitation regulations in Wales, and students can take complaints to the local authority. For information, licensing is mandatory for all HMOs that have three or more storeys and are occupied by five or more persons forming two or more households. If there is a statutory HMO in place, then there are space standards that need to be met in order to get that licence. So, we have a number of measures to protect people in various forms of accommodation across Wales. 

I believe rent freezes are an ineffective measure to support anyone during the winter, but can also store up longer-term issues. Compelling rent arrears build-up during a moratorium could lead to a mandatory ground for possession, and damage a household's ability to find a new home when that moratorium has indeed lifted. So, I just want to be really clear with Members that I do not think these are the solutions for addressing affordability in the private rented sector. The most significant lever that could help ease and address affordability in the private rented sector is uplifting the local housing allowance. It is these rates that determine how much housing benefit someone gets, and the fact that they have been frozen for almost four years while rents have increased means the gap between income and rent is unaffordable for far too many. 

I am really pleased today—

Minister, will you take an intervention? 

I'd imagine it's about the fact the Chancellor has done what I've just asked, so can I just finish this sentence and then I'll let—? I can't see who it is, sorry. 

It's from Heledd Fychan. 

Let me just finish this paragraph and then I'll let her in. 

I'm just very pleased today that the Chancellor has finally listened to our calls and those of the wider housing sector to raise the LHA rate, although only to the thirtieth percentile for 2023. But for the last four years, low-income tenants have struggled with the growing gap between benefits and rents, and it's unfortunate that his announcement will not see this increased money in the pockets of low-income tenants until next April, which offers very little comfort over the winter. 

I just wanted to pick up on the point around students. You say that the regulations are in place to protect them. Then why is it the case that there's such an issue remaining and such substandard accommodation, and students living with damp and homes that aren't fit for purpose, if all regulations are in place? What's not working or stopping that from happening? 

I think, Heledd, probably it is that students aren't there for very long and actually end up not complaining to the local authorities. I have met with student organisations from across Wales on a number of occasions to discuss how you can get knowledge of rights into the organisations. I'm more than happy to meet very regularly every year, because obviously a new cohort of students comes. Many of the students, of course, are not from Wales—they're from England, where similar protections don't exist. So, it's important to try and get the information out to them. If you've got any suggestions for how we can get that out more effectively, I'll be very happy to work with you to do so. 

Let me just, Dirprwy Lywydd, turn to giving some examples of how the current LHA rates impact tenants, looking at rental prices from February. So, if you take the LHA rates for a one-bed property in Torfaen and compare that to the cheapest available one-bedroomed property in the area, you'd see a gap of almost £4,500 between a person's rent and their housing benefit income over the course of a year. The largest gap between rents and LHA rates was in Ynys Môn, where a family needing a four-bedroomed property would see a gap of £851 a month, or just over £10,000 a year, between income and rent. No household on a low income could make up such a shortfall. 

Finally, I think it’s important to address the statistics quoted in the original motion. And while it’s necessary to acknowledge the pressures on many households of rising rental prices, we must be careful about the data we use to illustrate the scale of the issue. Rents did not rise 13.9 per cent in Wales in 2021-22. This figure comes from a quarterly report from Rightmove. As you will all know, Rightmove is a property portal that advertises new tenancies. Thirteen point nine per cent is the increase in asking prices for new tenancies in 2021-22 compared to 2020-21, which of course was a year in which very few people could move home at all due to the global pandemic. The Office for National Statistics's index of private rental housing prices shows Wales’s annual average private rent rise was actually 1.6 per cent in 2021-22 and 4.4 per cent in 2022-23. That considers the whole rental market, not just new rentals.

As such, the proposed amendments tabled by Lesley Griffiths bring both accuracy to the motion, reflect the work under way as part of the co-operation agreement with Plaid Cymru, and direct the call for action towards the UK Government, who have finally listened today and increased local housing allowance at least to 30 per cent, although 50 per cent would have been much better, to help address the differential in rent and income to help the lives of some of the least well-off people in Wales. Diolch.

And I call on Mabon ap Gwynfor to reply to the debate. 

Thank you very much, Dirprwy Lywydd, and thank you to everyone for contributing to this important debate this afternoon. I'm not going to rehearse what's already been said, but I should note the important points that my fellow Members on the Plaid Cymru benches have made. Sioned Williams, of course, addressed the impact on the most disadvantaged in our communities; Heledd Fychan talked about the impact on students at our universities; and Peredur Owen Griffiths spoke specifically about the successes of Scotland when it came to this policy.

And that brings me on to Sam's contribution—Sam clearly showing a great deal of doubt about the validity of what we are proposing and whether or not it can be effective. You talked, Sam, about Scotland, and said that it wasn't a successful policy in Scotland, where I think Peredur made clear that it has been a successful policy. Not only was it successful in its first iteration, but it was so successful they extended it for another six months because of its positive impact. Now, I do note that you said that rents had increased significantly in Scotland, but those rent increases are down to the landlord's choice to increase those rents. So, in order to stop those levels of increases, the rent freeze actually worked for the period that it was in place. I note that Sam also mentioned some data and some information from organisations that represent landlords, and it's probably worth noting that it's no surprise that organisations that represent landlords will show data or argue the case against rent freezes and rent controls. And so we can only take some of what is said in that regard with a pinch of salt. 

I do note that there are concerns that landlords are leaving the sector. Note that I did mention in my opening remarks that the number of private rents had doubled over the last 20 years, so it's possible to argue that the market is only correcting itself. But also, landlords are leaving in order—well, quite often—to go on to short-term holiday let platforms like Airbnb. Now, we are trying to control those elements as well through our co-operation agreement, but, again, it's the Conservatives that are arguing against controlling that market, so you can't have it both ways. If we want landlords to stay in the private sector then we need to do something about the short-term holiday let sector as well, so that that isn't a better proposition for those investors. 

Will you take an intervention?

Yes, I will indeed. 

Can't you see that that is an example of, when efforts are being overzealously made to try and control a market, suddenly another string needing to be pulled somewhere else? Like the example you just gave there around landlords leaving the private rental market because of what they see as restrictions being put on them to provide a great service to their tenants. An issue then arises around more people moving into things like Airbnb, and you sort of wonder what the next thing would be. So, as Government typically like to control these things, it creates more problems rather than actually resolving them.

No, I don't fully accept what you've said, because landlords aren't leaving because of regulation in the private rental sector, they're leaving because they find a greater return in the holiday let sector. So, in that instance, we have individuals who are looking at their own profits rather than the needs of tenants, the needs of people.

Now, when we had the contributions from some of the Labour Members, I sympathise and I agree a lot with what Jenny and Carolyn said. You mentioned quite a bit about local housing allowance, and, yes, absolutely we need to welcome the fact that we've seen an increase—and the Minister talked about this today—a shift in local housing allowance, albeit it's not enough. But please be aware of what this is about. Local housing allowance, like a lot of the grants in this sector, is about transferring public wealth into the pockets of private individuals. Now, we can't carry on like that. We have to find a way of using public wealth to build municipal houses so that people can live in them and that it's under the ownership of our communities and the public body here in Wales.

You mentioned the fact, Jenny, that you're looking forward to the Green Paper and the Minister talked about this as well. Absolutely, this is an exciting prospect. It's something we've called for for a long time, but that Green Paper won't be delivered for another few months again, let alone the White Paper, which is going to come probably at the end of this Senedd term, so we won't see anything for another few years yet. We need something to happen today, in the here and now, and that's why we are calling for rent freezes and a ban on evictions. 

Mabon—

Sorry, Jenny. Yes. 

I appreciate that we need something in the here and now, and we do need more municipal housing but where are we going to get the funds from? Cardiff Council is doing important things like building temporary housing where they've got spare land, because they know that the number of homeless who are going to be landing on their doorstep is growing exponentially. Would you agree that other local authorities need to follow that lead and build temporary housing so that people aren't left on the street, which is what is otherwise going to happen.

Absolutely, I would agree, and I've made that call myself here, and the council tax premium is going to bring in more money for local authorities in order for them to invest in housing. We're seeing that in Ynys Môn and Gwynedd. I think Newport are now talking about increasing the council tax premium so that they can invest in housing as well. 

So, there are steps that can be taken. You asked about how we're going to pay for this. If you go to the train station in Cardiff and look towards the old brewery you can see a big sign there saying 'Legal & General' and that housing development is paid for through those pension funds. There are ways we can attract new money into building houses, but we need to be innovative and we need to start those conversations now so that we can start the process of building new houses. 

And finally, the issue around allowing people to stay in their houses and stop people being evicted over winter—let's not be afraid of this policy. This policy is used across the world, and France introduced it in 1954. And in fact, it's a policy that is proposed and promoted by the United Nations.

And I'll finish with this, Deputy Presiding Officer. Recently I had a chance to have a conversation with the special rapporteur on housing for the United Nations, Leilani Farha. She's a fantastic person, but she wrote the basic principles and guidelines on development-based evictions and displacement. And in that document, policy 49 states clearly:

'Evictions must not take place in inclement weather, at night, during festivals or religious holidays, prior to elections or during or just prior to school examinations.'

So, if we want to be true and follow the lead of the United Nations, if we want to follow examples across the world as to how to allow people to live with dignity, then let's support this motion today. It is a short-term, temporary measure we're calling for, but it's absolutely necessary in order to save people and stop people from becoming homeless over this winter period. Diolch.

The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes, there is objection. The voting under this item is deferred until voting time. 

We move on now to the topical question and I call on Peter Fox to ask the question. 

I've issued a written statement setting out our initial assessment of the implications of the UK autumn statement for Wales. The Chancellor has failed to recognise the increasing pressures on public services and provide them with the vital investment they need, which means there will be very difficult decisions ahead.

Thank you, Minister, for your response. There was a lot of talk about prioritisation yesterday from the First Minister, and I agree that difficult choices need to be made. However, for 25 years, Labour have held Wales back, there's no doubt about that, particularly our NHS, as a direct result of prioritising the wrong things. Having now glanced at your written statement on the autumn statement, it seems that the Welsh Government, much like the Labour shadow chancellor, are happy to ignore Labour's record when it comes to many things, including the NHS here.

Thanks to the decisions taken today, hard-working families in Wales will get a massive tax cut through cuts to national insurance, alongside record pay rises thanks to the living wage increase of 9.8 per cent to £11.44 an hour, which means a record pay rise of circa £1,800 or more for over 140,000 people across Wales. Thanks to the Conservative Government's recent announcement, plus today's, together with associated consequentials of £305 million and the funding formula that delivers at least 20 per cent more funding per head than in England, we can clearly see that the UK Government is delivering for Wales—[Interruption.] Oh, sorry.

I can't hear the Member speaking and the Minister can't hear the Member speaking, so I'd be grateful if all Members across the Chamber allowed the Member to actually speak without interruption.

How far did I get?

There's no need to start again.

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. I was saying that the living wage increase of 9.8 per cent, moving up to £11.44 an hour, will mean a record pay rise of circa £1,800 for over 140,000 people across Wales. Thanks to the Conservative Government's recent announcements, plus today's, together with associated consequentials of £305 million and a funding formula that delivers at least 20 per cent more funding per head than in England, we can clearly see that the UK Government is delivering for the people of Wales, in contrast to Welsh Labour here.

I'm also pleased to see that universal credit and other working benefits will also see a boost of 6.7 per cent in April, a real-terms increase, which ensures that vulnerable people in Wales are receiving the help they need. State pensions will also increase by 8.5 per cent in April, the second-biggest cash increase ever. Minister, in your statement, you say there's no targeted support for the most vulnerable, but this package of support is helping so many people and the vulnerable across Wales.

The UK Conservative Government will also be working with Welsh Government to implement two investment zones in Wales—one in the north and one in the south—investing over £320—[Interruption.]. It's good news; you can't cram all of this into a minute—

On all sides: I would like to hear the question.

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. We also know that business rates will be cut in England for retail, leisure and hospitality, and I am hoping that the same will happen in Wales and help to remove the barriers in place here that are stopping businesses and investment from moving forward here.

With all of this in mind, do you, Minister, agree with me that this is a positive autumn statement, recognising that it provides a boost to wages and increases for pensioners, as well as those on universal credit, and will support people and businesses across Wales? Surely this is good news.

Well, I think the Member was listening to a different autumn statement to the one that I was listening to very carefully this afternoon. I think that it's evident today that the UK Government cares absolutely nothing for public services. We didn't hear any mentions at all of the pressures that public services are under; we've talked about them endlessly in this Chamber. I think that there are going to be really, really difficult decisions ahead, both for us, in terms of public services—

The back benches of the Conservative Party, please keep quiet so I can hear the answer from the Minister. I can't hear the answer, so, please, silence—let the Minister speak.

There are difficult choices for us and for local government, in terms of public services, but also very difficult choices for households. The news today was not good news for households. The Office for Budget Responsibility has set out today that living standards are forecast to be 3.5 per cent lower in 2024-25 than pre pandemic, and they said that this would be the largest reduction in living standards since records began. The Institute for Fiscal Studies has said that, despite the reductions to tax announced today in the autumn statement, total tax revenue as a share of GDP remains on track to reach its highest level since the 1940s. And the Conservative Members here are proud of the Conservative record.

When the Chancellor's announcement was made in relation to national insurance contributions, of course, that does provide some very limited relief, but, actually, many won't see it because of the impact of fiscal drag as a result of the UK Government's decisions in respect of the personal allowance and freezing that. So, what we've seen today falls well short of what families need and what individuals need. And I think that Conservative Members here will do well to reflect on the support that they are giving for what has been an awful statement for families, but also for public services.

I think I was listening to the statement that the Minister listened to, rather than the one that Peter listened to, because today's autumn statement offered nothing for Wales: nothing to help the 45 per cent of Welsh households in fuel poverty, nothing to help people who are struggling to pay their bills, nothing to help public services, and nothing to tackle the economic challenges we face, only desperate electioneering and scapegoating of vulnerable people.

Ahead of this autumn statement, Plaid Cymru argued for targeted support to help families with energy costs this winter, and a social energy tariff to help make the system fairer in the long term. We will continue to demand a fairer funding formula for Wales, the transfer of owed billions in rail infrastructure funds and ensuring the flow of money into Welsh coffers through the devolution of the Crown Estate. These are crucial steps needed to build a fairer and more ambitious future for Wales. Do you agree that Wales will continue to be shortchanged until we get a clear and unambiguous commitment from UK Government to review the Barnett formula on a proper needs basis and provide Wales with the requisite powers to finally realise its enormous economic potential?

Can you also explain your initial reaction to the autumn statement in relation to the following three points? What will be the effect of the fiscal drag on Welsh taxpayers? How will the statement affect Welsh Government plans to support front-line services and the most vulnerable in society, as local government faces a £411 million budget shortfall next year? And how will this statement affect your ability to pay for all the things that you want to deliver for the people of Wales, with very little support being offered from the other end of the M4?

I'm very grateful to the Member for raising those points, and for the obvious concern that there is for people who are struggling. So, we have made strong representations to the UK Government on the fact that the energy crisis isn't over; energy prices are expected to rise again in January, and inflation is still well above the Bank of England's 2 per cent target. I, alongside colleagues, have been making the case very strongly and over a long period to increase local housing allowance. We're pleased that that has been addressed to some extent today, but, of course, that measure doesn't come into force until April of next year, so it offers no comfort at all to people over the winter period.

I'm also really concerned about the UK Government's approach now to, as they would put it, supporting people who are disabled and long-term unemployed back into work. I think the threat of just removing the support available to some of our most vulnerable people, who are unable to work for a whole range of reasons, is really worrying. And, of course, at the end of the day, we will be picking these people up in our public services, causing more pressure on those services, rather than supporting them into work and supporting them with whatever way in which they are disabled or way in which they have yet to engage with the employment market. So, I think all of that is really of concern.

In terms of our Welsh Government budget, we will receive an additional £305 million across 2023-24 and 2024-25. So, what it is including is £133 million in revenue this year. UK Government can't even tell us what that's for. So, we built that into our plans in respect of it being the consequential funding for the pay awards announced in England, because they haven't told us that that's not what it's for, but they're refusing to confirm. So, we find ourselves now in a situation where we're trying to manage this year's in-year pressure, taking all of those difficult choices and decisions that we've talked about in this Chamber, and, potentially, we come to the supplementary estimates in February and find out we didn't need to do that after all, here's another £140 million. So, I think that is really concerning, the fact that they can't even give us the information that they should at this point.

Next year, almost all of the funding is in relation to the new non-domestic rates measures that the UK Government has announced today. Obviously, now we have our budget for next year, we'll be working at pace to publish our budget on 19 December, and it'll be at that point we're able to share with people our plans to support businesses and others in the next financial year. So, we won't be able to say anything further on business support until that point.

Finally, Jenny Rathbone.

Thank you. I've just read the analysis by the Institute for Public Policy Research, which says that, for every £100 the UK Government is spending on personal tax cuts, £46 will benefit the richest fifth of households and only £3 going to the worst-off families. Would you agree that this is just perpetuating the already grossly unequal society we live in, with London and the south-east being the biggest winners and, guess what, the north-east, Yorkshire and the Humber and Wales getting the smallest benefit in terms of adding to their wage packets?

I would absolutely recognise and agree with that analysis. But, of course, it's just the Tories doing what the Tories do—they look after the most wealthy in society, they look after the vested interests, they have absolutely zero interest in supporting the most vulnerable people and the people who need their support, as we've seen today in the announcements that the UK Government has made in respect of disabled people and how it's likely to withdraw support for many of those.

I thank the Minister.

That brings us to voting time. Unless three Members wish for the bell to be rung, I will proceed directly to voting time. The first vote this evening is on item 5, the Welsh Conservatives debate. I call for a vote on the motion without amendment tabled in the name of Darren Millar. If the proposal is not agreed, we will vote on the amendment tabled to the motion. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 23, no abstentions, and 24 against. Therefore, the motion is not agreed.

I now call for a vote on amendment 1, tabled in the name of Lesley Griffiths. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 35, no abstentions, and 12 against. Therefore, amendment 1 is agreed.

I now call for a vote on the motion as amended.

Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 47, no abstentions, and none against. Therefore, the motion as amended is agreed.

We will next vote on the motion under item 6, which is the Plaid Cymru debate, and I call for a vote on the motion without amendment, tabled in the name of Heledd Fychan. If the proposal is not agreed, we will vote on the amendments tabled to the motion. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 11, no abstentions, and 36 against. Therefore, the motion is not agreed.

I now call for a vote on amendment 1, tabled in the name of Lesley Griffiths. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be deselected. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 35, no abstentions, and 12 against. Therefore, amendment 1 is agreed.

I now call for a vote on the motion as amended. 

Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 35, no abstentions, and 12 against. And therefore the motion as amended is agreed.

And that completes our voting for today. If you're leaving, please do so quietly.

We now move to the short debate and I call on Sam Kurtz to speak to the topic that he has chosen. Samuel.

Diolch yn fawr, Dirprwy Lywydd. And I’m grateful for the chance to bring this short debate forward this evening, and I’m very pleased to give Carolyn Thomas and Huw Irranca-Davies a minute of my time.

As I’ve often said in this Chamber, I’m an advocate of devolution, and that doesn’t mean powers stopping here in Cardiff Bay; let’s see appropriate powers transferred to local authorities and organisations. The people who are most affected by decisions have the best understanding of the impact that these decisions will have on their communities, and, in short, I believe the equivalent of this could be true in terms of animal welfare. The devolution of select key powers to the RSPCA, the world’s largest and oldest animal welfare charity, could deliver better animal welfare here in Wales. As world leaders in the field of animal welfare, and with 2024 marking their two-hundredth anniversary, RSPCA’s key aim is to inspire a world where all animals are treated with kindness and respect and, in order to make this a reality, their inspectors act as the feet on the ground, operating at the forefront of this mantra. The charity’s animal rescue officers have responded to more than 4,900 cases specifically involving animal cruelty and neglect between October 2022 and October of this year, alongside, on average, receiving over 1 million calls across Wales and England to their cruelty helpline year-on-year.

The RSPCA’s inspectors undertake these vital duties with no statutory powers, as, unbeknownst to many, they do not have the same powers designated to them as local authority inspectors under the Animal Welfare Act 2006. For example, they cannot enter outbuildings without a police warrant, automatically seize animals and remove them from a situation negatively impacting their welfare, or issue statutory improvement and welfare notices under the Animal Welfare Act, as is the case with local authority inspectors. Whilst the RSPCA are able to attend complaints of animal cruelty that have been submitted to them by the public, they cannot remove animals in distress without the owners’ permission or a police warrant. This current reliance on statutory public services, such as the police and local authorities, places additional pressure on their already stretched resources, whilst also leaving animals in vital need of rescue in limbo and potentially under cruel conditions for longer.

In the summer, I had the chance to join Keith Hogben, an RSPCA inspector based in my constituency, out on patrol. I had a fantastic day with him across Carmarthenshire and Pembrokeshire, which was a really great opportunity to gain an insight into his vital work, really bringing to life to me the practical reality these positive changes could have on inspectors and animals throughout Wales. My sincere thanks to Keith for his time, kindness and patience with me on the day, and I urge all Members to join their local inspector for a day. Members will be aware, Dirprwy Lywydd, that the RSPCA officials previously called for the devolution of statutory powers in Wales in 2019 when Welsh Government were handed a report making the case for such action. Providing these powers would not only ease pressure on many of our local authorities, as previously outlined, but would bring us in line in Wales with other sister organisations across the British isles, such as the Scottish Society for Prevention of Cruelty to Animals, and the Irish Society for Prevention of Cruelty to Animals.

The Animal Welfare Act 2006 provides the legal basis for over 95 per cent of animal cruelty convictions secured by the RSPCA in Wales and England, and it is under this legislation that inspectors could be granted these much-needed enforcement powers. From discussions with representatives of the charity, it is clear that, whilst they are keen to gain these statutory powers, they also understand the importance and benefits of working alongside our authorities to carry out their work. That is why, Dirprwy Lywydd, the RSPCA have called for limiting these powers to the following areas: section 10 of the Animal Welfare Act, which would allow inspectors to serve improvement notices; section 18, which would allow inspectors powers in relation to animal distress; section 19, which would allow the power of entry for the purpose of carrying out section 18; and section 23, to allow entry and search under warrant in connection with animal cruelty offences. Additional duties, such as statutory licence checks and the registration of farm premises would remain with local authorities, as these relate to statutory functions. And secondly, powers to investigate crimes relevant to species of wildlife that are not under human control would not be sought either, as these do not fall under the Animal Welfare Act. 

Just to emphasise my previously raised concerns about the already stretched local authorities, the workload of Wales's 22 local authorities in terms of animal welfare duties is expected to grow in the near future, with the Welsh Government expected to carry out a consultation on the regulation of more activities involving animals before the end of this year. Formalising the RSPCA's role in this capacity could allow more time for local authorities to focus on the licensing of animal sanctuaries, rescue and rehoming centres, and mobile animal exhibits, following the outcome of this consultation.

In addition, Dirprwy Lywydd, local authorities also currently have a statutory duty to pick up stray dogs. This is particularly important to note when considering the recently announced American XL bully ban, which is likely to result in an increase in the number of strays in the coming months. The impact this increase is set to have on local authorities will be unprecedented, as I note that this is the first time a new breed has been added to the Dangerous Dogs Act since its inception in 1991—coincidentally, in the year I was born. Thus, it is more vital than ever that we seriously consider accepting help and advice from this experienced and accredited organisation in the form of statutory powers to enable the RSPCA to work with and alongside our local authorities to keep our animals safe. I wanted to add in conjunction with these remarks, Dirprwy Lywydd, that, of course, with the increase of powers comes the absolute need for the increase in accountability. Such action would enable the RSPCA to be better equipped and accountable in order to bring the enforcement work of all agencies closer together as well as easing the historic bureaucratic burden placed on public bodies.

And finally, Dirprwy Lywydd, I understand that the transferring of statutory powers to the RSPCA would require careful consideration and a co-ordinated approach. The report submitted to the Welsh Government in 2019 exploring the appointment of inspectors formally under the Animal Welfare Act made a number of recommendations as to how these changes could be enforced and how this transition could be made as seamless as possible. I know that the Minister has previously expressed her relative yet cautious support, I think it's fair to say, for RSPCA inspection powers in this Chamber, stressing the practical importance in their handling of animal issues, most recently reiterating this support in response to a question I asked in the Chamber back in July. I'm grateful for this support, and I sincerely hope we can work together with the RSPCA as we look to progress this proposal in 2024.

In conclusion, Dirprwy Lywydd, this debate comes at a juncture for animal welfare in Wales. With financial pressures and budgetary constraints impacting both animal owners and public services, the RSPCA is as keen as ever to support both of these entities as much as possible during these challenging times and beyond. I'm sure we can all agree that, at the forefront of this proposal, is the protection of our much-loved animals, and that we can, and should, where possible, activate all resources in order to meet our targets and reach as many in need as we can. This can be achieved via the continued assessment of the report handed to the Welsh Government in 2019 and the subsequent discussions and agreement on what additional steps are required to achieve this new status. Diolch yn fawr.

Thank you, Sam, for putting this on the agenda. The RSPCA has a tough job to do. In north Wales alone, they received 1,800 calls in the last 12 months, and most people don't realise just how large an area inspectors have to cover. At times, only one inspector is available. Each call that requires action is sometimes a race to protect those animals, and having very simple powers would not only mean animals receive help quicker, but would also improve the efficiency and ability of the RSPCA to help more animals. We also must look at the cost saving for North Wales Police and local authorities, who have to support the RSPCA inspectors to use any of these powers. The cost and time savings made by those must also be taken into consideration. A change to allow the RSPCA powers to serve notices over an animal in distress, including power of entry and search under warrant, are powers the public believes the RSPCA already holds, and expects them to hold, to protect animals, and I am in full support.

I'm in full support, also, of Sam, and I think that was a fantastic contribution that went through comprehensively the changes that are needed, and also the changes needed bring us in line with other constituent parts of the UK. So, over my 20 years, fortunately, as an elected representative, there's only been a handful of occasions where the RSPCA has struggled to get into a property or premises to inspect animal welfare without going through the additional hurdles of actually bringing along police or other enforcement officers with them. But it has been a burden to do that, and this would streamline the process fantastically. So, my question to you, Minister, in support of Sam, is this: how do we take it forward? Is it a question of finding a legislative opportunity? Is it a question of doing a little bit more work after the 2019 report? What hope can you give us, if you want to work with backbenchers, that we can find a way to take this forward together? Diolch yn fawr.

I call on the Minister for Rural Affairs and North Wales to reply to the debate—Lesley Griffiths.

Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer, and thank you to Sam Kurtz for tabling today's debate. As a lifelong and vocal supporter of animal welfare, I condemn any and all cases of animal mistreatment and champion all efforts to combat neglect and abuse. Animal welfare is a Welsh Government priority and the focus of several of our programme for government commitments. I am committed to ensuring high standards of welfare and my ambition is for all animals in Wales to have a good quality of life.

Animal abuse must never be tolerated, and I commend the RSPCA for their tireless efforts towards the protection of animals. In recent years, we have unfortunately witnessed a perfect storm of rises in pet ownership, particularly during COVID, accompanied by a cost-of-living crisis, which has sadly led to an increase in relinquishment and abandonment of pets. I'm grateful to our third sector animal welfare groups for their ongoing support of Wales's pet owners, and I'm not ignorant of the pressures the sector faces. I know the majority of us have the best interests of our animals at heart, but we cannot overlook those instances where things go wrong. As recently reported by the RSPCA at the launch of their Christmas campaign, animal neglect and abandonment are at a three-year high in the United Kingdom.

Though I am supportive of the recent XL bully ban brought forward by the UK Government, I recognise it may also create additional pressures, and my officials are in regular contact with their counterparts in DEFRA to mitigate negative impacts. The Animal Welfare Act 2006 makes it an offence to cause unnecessary suffering to an animal or to fail to meet their welfare needs, including the five freedoms. The Act has proved instrumental in several recent and high-profile offences. I am confident our ambitious programme for government will advance positive reform in this area and improve the lives of farmed, companion and other kept animals across Wales. The plan spans five years, but my hope is its influence will reach far beyond and positively benefit future generations. Progress will be delivered through commitments such as strengthening local authority enforcement and introducing licensing for animal welfare establishment, activities and exhibits, many of which are currently unregulated. These reforms are being pursued as a matter of priority and I'm pleased at the progress already made.

As Sam referred to, I acknowledged in Plenary in July this year that I recognise there could be practical benefits to the RSPCA being granted additional powers. When I've accompanied them on visits, I've witnessed first-hand the frustrations faced and envision such powers would assist in cases where the RSPCA act as first responders. I agree, in principle, that such powers could be of benefit, and it is my intention to revisit this course of action once our current, already ambitious plans, are delivered. I understand our counterparts in England share the same stance, citing significant resource implication and the complexities involved in changing primary legislation and setting up Government oversight. We face these same challenges here in Wales. If I were to privilege this work stream, which does not feature in our programme for government or our animal welfare plan, it would come at the expense of our already ambitious commitments and impede the positive progress being made on long-agreed priorities by diverting resources elsewhere. So, although our means may differ on occasion, I think we all share ambitions for animal welfare, and I remain proud of our close working relationship, without which our goals would not be easily achieved. So, of course I leave the door open for future discussion, and I hope, in the meantime, we can continue to channel efforts into our collective vision for animal welfare. Diolch.

I thank the Minister, and I thank Sam Kurtz also. That brings today's proceedings to a close.