Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru

Good afternoon, and welcome, all, to this Plenary meeting. At the outset, I wish to inform the Senedd that, in accordance with Standing Order 26.75, the Historic Environment (Wales) Bill was given Royal Assent earlier today.

The first item, therefore, this afternoon is questions to the Minister for Finance and Local Government, and the first question is from Joel James.

Thank you. Academi Wales delivers a range of leadership interventions to public service leaders across Wales. In 2022, total delegates numbered 2,502, of whom 1,057 were NHS staff. For the first quarter of 2023, a total of 946 delegates have participated so far, with 292 of those delegates being from the NHS.

Thank you, Minister, for your response. As you know, Academi Wales is designed to transform this country through excellence in leadership, but, due to the COVID pandemic, our public sector leaders are now faced with challenges that they've never experienced before. I'm specifically thinking about our NHS leaders and how they have to deal with an ever-increasing complexity of health needs, a shortage of healthcare professionals in many sectors and geographical areas, and an ageing population, many of whom have chronic health conditions, to name just a few. Academi Wales lists a range of leadership training focusing on health boards, coaching and management training, which are standard skill sets that leaders need. But there doesn't seem to be any specific training on dealing with the challenges to the NHS in a post-COVID era. Minister, have you challenged Academi Wales to design this type of training, and what are the Welsh Government's aspirations for training the next generation of NHS leaders? Thank you.

I'm very grateful to Joel James for this question this afternoon, and also for recognising Academi Wales as the centre of excellence that it is in terms of leadership development in Wales. So, Academi Wales does have a range of leadership interventions, including coaching, master classes, programmes and residential schools, and I'm really looking forward to the summer school in Lampeter later on this year. But I will say that NHS staff are one of the key target audiences for Academi Wales, and it does work directly with the NHS for some of its programmes, including, for example, independent members' induction training, and that's part of Academi Wales's efforts to improve and strengthen board level leadership across public services in Wales.

Academi Wales is, of course, not the only place in which NHS staff will receive training. There is a wide range of training available through the NHS itself, including professional development across a range of routes, including everything from work-based training to specialist courses. So, I think it's important to recognise that leadership within that one Welsh public service ethos is very much supported and catered for through Academi Wales, but, absolutely, the NHS has an important role to play. And, for me, it's important that those two ways of learning and ways of supporting leadership development complement each other. Thank you for the question—it's not often we get to talk about Academi Wales on the floor of the Senedd. It is one of the more joyous areas of my portfolio and a really exciting agenda.

Yes. The former Welsh Government office building in North Penrallt is the only empty building owned by the Welsh Government in Caernarfon. The Minister for Climate Change has already written to Gwynedd county council on this matter, and officials are in active discussions with the council to ensure that the building is put back into beneficial use at the earliest opportunity.

Thank you very much. The Government offices in Penrallt have been empty for two years, and the council and a local housing association are eager to use the building to provide temporary accommodation to people who present themselves as homeless. In May, 107 people presented as homeless in Gwynedd. The county spends £6 million on unsuitable accommodation, because there are insufficient temporary places. There would be room for more than 30 people in Penrallt, a site that is in the middle of the town of Caernarfon. Doesn't it make sense, in terms of making effective use of public resources—which is part of your portfolio, to ensure that efficient use of public resources—as well as a whole host of other reasons, to move forward with this scheme? Will you commit today to doing everything within your power to accelerate this scheme?

I'm very grateful for this question this afternoon as well, and I just want to reassure Siân Gwenllian that we are very much seeking to ensure that any redevelopment of the site does deliver new and affordable housing to alleviate the current housing pressures in the area. We are very aware of the significant negative impacts that empty buildings do have on the local environment, and especially so in our town centres. 

I can say that there is a meeting now scheduled between senior Welsh Government officials and the chief executive of Gwynedd county council, and his officers, on Monday of next week. I hope that's an opportunity for us to make some progress and agree a way forward. We've been unable to receive any recommendations from officials at this point in respect of disposal of the building to Gwynedd county council because we do need a more detailed proposal than that which has been forthcoming so far, and that's because I think that any proposals will require some significant grant support. So, any applications for such funding have to undergo a very rigorous process, and very much so to determine value for money. 

But we are, I think, in the same space in terms of wanting the building to be used as soon as possible, and recognising that residential use is a really good use for that site, and there's very much a need for it. So, I do hope that the meeting, now, on Monday of next week will be productive. 

Questions now from party spokespeople. The Conservative spokesperson, Sam Rowlands. 

Diolch, Llywydd. Minister, I've spoken before about the issues around abuse of politicians, in particular councillors serving in local government. Minister, you will be aware that yesterday it was reported that the deputy leader of Anglesey council has said that, and I quote,

'All Tories should be shot.'

We'll all be aware, of course, that, in the UK over the last seven years, two MPs have been murdered in their role as parliamentarians—one Labour and one Conservative. This is real, literal violence, and any attempt to insight violence like that, in my view, should be met with the strongest condemnation. The language that Ieuan Williams used, I would say, is obscene and creates a foul atmosphere around our politics, especially from somebody in a leadership position, who has now stood down, as I say, as deputy leader of Anglesey council. Of course, this isn't the first time in recent months that a councillor has done this. We heard earlier this year of a Caerphilly Plaid Cymru councillor posing with a gun and posting about shooting English people. So, Minister, can you share your thoughts on this particular issue in Anglesey and the wider issue of abuse in politics?

Yes, I'm very grateful to Sam Rowlands for raising this, and, actually, it's a topic he returns to frequently in spokesperson's questions, which I think is really, really important, because it is one that I think transcends those party political lines, and one where we have to all stand shoulder to shoulder against any form of abuse. Healthy debate is wonderful; it's really important to be able to challenge each other, but also to do so in a way that is respectful.

And I think that it is the case now that the individual concerned has asked the standards committee of the local authority to look at what happened. I think that is definitely the appropriate way forward, because processes are in place to investigate potential breaches of codes of conduct, and I think that it's important now that that process takes place. But there are sanctions for breaching the code of conduct, and they can range from censure to suspension or disqualification from being a councillor for up to a period of five years. So, it is a serious matter. 

It does give me an opportunity to say that we are currently consulting on a revised code of conduct, to ensure that it does remain fit for purpose in engendering trust in the highest standards of conduct for councillors. And I would obviously encourage colleagues to have their say in that consultation, and particularly to make sure that it is fit for purpose with all of the different things that we have to deal with nowadays, for example, threats online and social media abuse. 

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Minister. Thank you for that response. Just to expand on the issue slightly further, because, from that particular incident, it also appears that the chief executive of the council was at the meeting where those comments were made, and the chief executive seems to have asked for those comments not to be minuted. I would say that this is staggering, to say the least, because, of course, we'd all advocate and want people to stand up and speak out when things like this happen, not shy away in an attempt to cover it up. You just mentioned there some of the consultation on a revised code of conduct, but, I wonder, can I ask what resources and what support are Welsh Government giving to local authorities in order to support staff and councillors when they're dealing with aggression and hostility, especially in light of the events that we heard about yesterday?

We're working really closely with the Welsh Local Government Association, but also with One Voice Wales, because we know that levels of abuse are increasingly concerning to members of town and community councils as well as principal councils. And we are now working to develop some training on the code of conduct, so that local authorities and those who are elected to serve on councils are aware of the responsibilities of the various partners who operate roles on those bodies, but also ways in which they can find support, in terms of the WLGA, the resources from the local council and also those support mechanisms that lie outside the formal council as well. So, I think that it is something that now has a very strong focus and is a very important part of the work of my officials in the local government department.

Thank you for that response, again, Minister. Certainly, we're supporting efforts to make sure our staff and councillors in local authorities are properly equipped.

I just want to touch, in my last question, on local development plans. I'm sure the First Minister was disappointed yesterday that my question was too far down the order paper to be able to raise a question on it with him yesterday. But, Minister, you will be aware of Wrexham council's recent decision to not support the local development plan that was placed in front of the council. I did note the First Minister made comments on this a few weeks ago here in the Chamber, and I did note that those comments seemed to be mocking the decision of the council. In my view, it's completely disrespectful of local democracy and the mandate that councillors received only last year in those local authority elections. My view is that democracy works best at a local level, and if a local authority does not want to support something, they should be well within their right to not support something. So, in your view, Minister, would you not agree with me that local councils and councillors deserve respect as the people on the ground who know best for their local communities? And what approach will you be taking to build bridges not just with Wrexham council, but with all councils to ensure that they are properly supported in the development of local development plans?

Well, Wrexham is the only local authority in Wales not to have an adopted local development plan in place, and obviously that is a really disappointing position for them to be in. In not adopting a plan, it does remove certainty for communities, for businesses and for investors in Wrexham. We considered the positive report from planning inspectors following the statutory scrutiny process. We consider, as a Welsh Government, that that does enable now the LDP in Wrexham to be adopted, and let's remember we've had 11 years of preparation in Wrexham for this plan, and it was a plan that the council itself considered to be sound and able to be adopted, but yet it hasn't been. I do know that a judicial review was launched by third parties against the decision by the local authority not to adopt the plan, but Wrexham have conceded this judicial review in full. I understand that the authority is now scheduled to consider this again on 14 June. I'm checking my watch—that's today or tomorrow.

I was going to provide clarity, and then I worked out I couldn't work out whether it was 13 or 14 June. 

The Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Mabon ap Gwynfor. 

Diolch, Llywydd. Well, Llywydd, I'm hearing incredibly concerning things from local government and the homelessness sector about their ability to deliver homeless prevention measures. Representatives from the sector have told me that many support providers and commissioners have spent the last two months discussing how to reduce and remodel homelessness and housing support services because they don't have the funds to continue delivering services at the same level as they did last year. The lack of any increase to the housing support grant is forcing the sector to cut services in order to pay minimum wage, and the figures published by the Government last week show that over 10,000 people are now in temporary accommodation, causing huge challenges for local government and the sector at large. The sector is now under mor pressure than ever before. The likely reduction in support hours and service delivery is incredibly concerning, and the impact will be felt by the most vulnerable in our society. So, what is the Minister’s message to them and the brilliant front-line workers in local government and third sector who are struggling at the moment? What consideration did the Minister give to providing additional funds from the UK Government spring statement to increase the housing support grant? And what priority will the Minister give to the housing support grant, should the additional funds or in-year savings become available?

I'm very grateful for the question and also to take this opportunity, as you have, to recognise the important work that people in local authorities and those delivering these schemes provide. I will say that the question really is a policy and budget question for the Minister for Climate Change. I’ll make her aware of these concerns. But from my perspective, I will certainly say that, in the three-year spending review that we undertook last year, we did increase the housing support grant by 30 per cent at the start of that three-year spending review period, and that was, I think, a significant uplift.

It wasn’t possible, of course, to do a similar thing in the second year of the three-year spending review just because of the fact that the way in which the money that came from Westminster to Wales was profiled means that we had the majority of it in year 1; years 2 and 3 will inevitably be much more difficult.

The amount of funding that was provided to Wales through the spring statement was absolutely paltry. And let’s remember that this year, our budget is worth £900 million less than it was when we set our budgets, and that is largely the impact of inflation. So, at the moment, we’re really not in the space of being able to allocate additional funding to new things. It is very much about getting a clear sight, really, of the pressures across Government and the impact that inflation is having on our existing plans. So, I don’t want to mislead anybody as to our ability, really, to be providing large amounts of additional funding for new things, much as we would obviously want to be able to.

Thank you for the response. Of course, you didn't mention the increase—[Inaudible.]—the budget was £139 million back in 2012 and, in today's money, that is the equivalent of £186 million. So, in real terms, that's a £20 million cut that they've received over 10 years to the housing support grant. So, any in-year savings would be appreciated.

I want to turn the next question to the European Union and the funding that comes from the EU. And I understand that a total of around £500 million is still remaining to Wales from European funding. We have until the end of this year to ensure that this funding is spent in full. A recent report by Audit Wales on the issue has confirmed that this funding has been allocated, but that the expenditure rate needs to be accelerated significantly. The Minister will also be aware that the beneficiaries of this funding will have to make their final claims by 7 July to the Government.

So, may I ask the Minister where we are with this funding? Is there assurance that this funding will be allocated and spent? And finally, in the context of what I said earlier in terms of the EU membership programmes and in the context of housing, what's the Minister's assessment of the impact of the deficiencies of Westminster's proposals for Wales in terms of post-EU funding and the support available to provide for social housing in Wales?

Thank you very much for that question. The Member will be aware that Audit Wales concluded that the Welsh European Funding Office and the Welsh Government, despite some challenges including delays caused by the COVID-19 pandemic, have managed to commit all of the EU grant funding and more to projects and beneficiaries. 

The report did recognise that we still have some significant funds available to spend during 2023, whilst managing some significant risks to maximising the draw-down of the funding. I can say, though, since the publication of that report, we have made some further progress and seen more improvement in that position: now with only £320 million spend of the structural funds—the European Regional Development Fund and the European Social Fund programmes—remaining. That was the data as of the first week of June, so, I would expect the position to have improved still since then.

The Minister for rural affairs and the Minister for Economy, who are responsible for these schemes, are obviously very actively keeping a close watch on this and driving forward the spend in those places. Obviously, the Public Accounts and Public Administration Committee might take some interest in this as well. It's important that we respect the role of PAPAC in that. But, as I say, the position is improving and it's something that the two particular Ministers are very actively involved in.

It is the case, of course, that the funding that will come to Wales following our exit from the EU is just absolutely paltry compared to that which we would have received had we remained in the European Union. I think that's now accepted by more or less everybody. But, I think it's beyond that, part of the problems, really, are about the way in which the UK Government is going about allocating this funding. Going through local government, in some cases, puts some parts of the partnership landscape that we have in Wales against each other. It means that the third sector now, I think, feels that it is not having such a direct impact as it has had in the past. Obviously, the kind of funding cuts out, I suppose, the natural way in which we've previously engaged with further education and higher education. So, it has caused significant problems in terms of the way in which we would have envisaged our post-EU funding to be allocated. That said, of course we will work constructively where we can to maximise the benefit of that funding, and I will have some further discussions with the Minister for Climate Change on that particular point you raised about social housing. 

Question 3, Rhys ab Owen. I'm waiting for Rhys ab Owen's microphone to be unmuted.

If somebody can—. Yes, there we go. Diolch, Rhys.

I unmuted myself, Llywydd. [Laughter.]

I discuss a range of financial issues with local authorities across Wales through regular standing and other meetings. Decisions on the use of their borrowing powers to invest in local priorities are a matter for local elected members. 

Diolch yn fawr, Gweinidog. In a recent meeting of St Fagans Community Council, the First Minister, attending there as the Senedd Member for Cardiff West, highlighted the fact that local government has more borrowing powers than the Welsh Government. The First Minister then went on to say that the Welsh Government were exploring whether local government could use that borrowing power and then the Welsh Government pay back the interest on that borrowed money. That seemed to me an interesting way forward to deal with the current lack of fair funding to Wales from Westminster. Are you in a position, Gweinidog, to update the Senedd on any of these discussions? Diolch yn fawr.

Thank you for the question. So, we have used supported borrowing in the past in terms of supporting local authorities with some of their road maintenance programmes in particular, and that was very much along the model that you described, where the Welsh Government would then provide revenue support to service the debts of that borrowing. It is something that we can continue to have some discussions about. We have talked to local authorities as to whether or not we could use this, for example, in the space of health and social care centres, but because of the rules that surround these matters, it would have to be a project that was very much more in the space of social care than health, so there are some things that we would have to get around to be able to deliver that. Of course, our lack of revenue budget is a challenge in and of itself.

So, we do continue to have these particular discussions with local authorities. We don't have any firm proposals on the table at the moment, but the broad point that you raise is also a really important one in terms of local authorities having more power to borrow. So, the amount of affordable borrowing that a local authority might undertake is determined by a professional assessment of what's affordable, prudent and sustainable for the circumstances of that authority, and then it's referred to the full council to endorse. Now, I think that is very much a model that would be appropriate for us in the Senedd. It would be a case of the Welsh Government coming forward with plans for prudential borrowing and for the Senedd then to scrutinise those plans and agree or otherwise. That is the model that I would prefer to see, especially since our current situation in terms of our annual borrowing limits and the aggregate just aren't really appropriate, and they haven't changed since 2016 and take no account of inflation in that period.

Minister, borrowing powers are a useful tool when deployed correctly to, obviously, improve infrastructure. In the Vale of Glamorgan, the village of Dinas Powys has had great difficulty with its transport infrastructure because of the main arterial route from Barry, which is the largest town in Wales, to Cardiff, which is a big employment centre. Is there scope within the borrowing powers for the local authority to look at major transport infrastructure projects unilaterally, and use those borrowing powers to fund such infrastructure developments in this key bottleneck that is causing so much blight to the villagers of Dinas Powys?

So, the local authority would need to undertake the borrowing fully within the prudential borrowing framework. It does allow local authorities to typically borrow for capital investment purposes, also to refinance existing debt, and then temporary borrowing for any purpose, should there be short-term need, such as if they’re expecting a large capital receipt. They would also then have to have full regard to the proper practices set out in the Chartered Institute of Public Finance and Accountancy prudential code for capital finance in local authorities, when they are determining their borrowing limit. The overarching requirement of that code, as I was saying to the former Member, is that it would have to be prudent, sustainable and affordable, so I think it would be really for the local authority to be considering its borrowing within those particular confines.

We have provided over £3 billion of support to those most affected by the cost-of-living crisis, including support channelled through local authorities. I continue to engage closely with the Minister for Social Justice on this issue, including through our work as members on the cost-of-living Cabinet sub-committee.

Thank you very much for that response, Minister.

The upcoming refresh to the child poverty strategy scheduled for autumn this year presents an opportunity to really think ambitiously about the ways that this long-standing issue can be tackled. It is, of course, a responsibility that will cut across Government budgets and a variety of portfolios. Now, with local government settlements stretched, charities such as Barnardo’s Cymru are calling for the Welsh Government to ring-fence funding for local authorities directed at supporting children in poverty, as well as further investment in local government-administered services such as Flying Start and Families First. So, with the renewed strategy around the corner, have you discussed with the Minister for Social Justice whether additional resources will be allocated and ring-fenced for measures such as these?

Thank you for the question. So, we are working with partners, and with over 3,000 children, actually, to deliver that strategy, and also working with the organisations in the sector. The strategy that we will consult on sets out what we’ve heard, what we’re doing about it, and where we’ll be focusing our efforts in future. The aim then is to produce that final strategy by the end of this year and work with partners to deliver that strategy.

What I would say in terms of ring-fencing funding, actually that moves in a different direction to that which we’re taking at the moment, so we have a programme for government commitment to reduce the administrative burden on local authorities. So, Welsh Government officials held a number of important meetings with local authorities. I’ve spoken to leaders, they’ve spoken to the Society of Welsh Treasurers, and have concluded that one of the biggest burdens administratively on local authorities was the way in which we deal with grants. So, we’re actually going through a process at the moment of reviewing our grants in Wales along the lines of considering whether these grants can be moved into the RSG without having an impact on delivery, because some of the grants that we deal with are very small and probably disproportionate, I think, in terms of the industry of work that is created to administer those grants. So, we are moving in a different direction; it’s more about that trusting relationship that we have with local government. But that said, when we do consider individual grants, we do so having a full impact assessment, because obviously, we don’t want to be doing anything that causes harm to those people who we’re trying to support. So, this is a piece of work that is just starting at the moment, but just to say, really, our broad direction is about the dehypothecation rather than ring fencing.

Minister, last week, the older people’s commissioner said that the cost-of-living crisis meant that activities that help prevent loneliness are no longer affordable for older people. The commissioner said that support for community groups and volunteers working to combat loneliness is so important as we face the cost-of-living crisis. Minister, what considerations have you given to providing ring-fenced funding to local authorities to enable them to support community groups tackling loneliness and isolation, especially as many councils continue to cut back on services such as day centres and libraries?

I would refer the Member to the previous question in terms of our approach to ring fencing of funding and that we're moving in a different direction, really, about having that relationship of trust with local authorities, understanding that they know their communities best and that we don't want to be taking officer time up with filling forms in when it's disproportionate to do so. So, we are moving away from that ring fencing where possible and where it is appropriate to do so—it won't be in all cases.

But the point that you make really is about how we support older people through the cost-of-living crisis. I think one of the important things that we did was introduce the grant funding to local authorities to set up warm hubs. I know they've been absolutely invaluable for older people in particular across the winter, but actually some of those hubs are now continuing as welcome spaces, and they're continuing right through the summer and potentially beyond, to provide that place for people to go—older people, of course, but others too, to try and alleviate some of that loneliness and isolation that people are feeling. Again, it's something that I know is a real priority for the Minister.

I am grateful to local authority partners for their work and progress in establishing corporate joint committees. These were provided for by the Local Government and Elections (Wales) Act 2021 to support regional working where it makes sense to do so.

Thank you for that, Minister. There are different configurations at play, aren't there, in different parts of Wales, with regard to joint working between local authorities, and it can get quite complicated. In south-east Wales and in Newport East, Minister, we have the Burns commission with its proposals for better integrated transport, which is really important for the future of the area, and in Newport East that involves Newport City Council and Monmouthshire County Council. We also, of course, have the corporate joint committee and the city deal. I just wonder, with an agenda as important as the Burns commission, what is the Welsh Government's role in assessing the effectiveness of the joint working between the different organisational structures, and whether that's going forward at the pace and making the progress that Welsh Government would like to see.

I'm very grateful to John Griffiths for the question. On this occasion, Llywydd, I might ask the Minister with responsibility for transport to provide a more detailed response to that, because my role in respect of corporate joint committees is more around the governance of those partnerships. I did meet recently with the Minister for Climate Change, the Deputy Minister for Climate Change, and also the Minister for Economy, with all of the CJCs and we talked about their important role in terms of planning, transport and economic development, making sure that those things are properly joined up and dealt with in a collaborative and strategic way. I should say, at this point, thank you to the Local Government and Housing Committee for the interest that you've taken in CJCs in particular. I'm very much looking forward to hearing more about what the committee's conclusions are.

The Minister will be aware that prior to my colleague, Sam Rowlands, I actually held the portfolio for local government for nine years here, and over that time we saw off three whole-scale plans for merging local authorities. At the time, it was talked up that local authorities would actually start working more closely together. As a member of Conwy County Borough Council in 2004, in cabinet, I remember talks at that time about having a north Wales payroll system. Now, only recently, we've lost a bus service in my area, the T19, and all we needed to support that bus service running was co-operation from Gwynedd county council, but we had no representation whatsoever from them on that aspect, and as a result of that we have lost a very valuable bus service. So, what actual plans are in place to continue the theory going forwards of more joint working between local authorities, and one that is meaningful? Thank you.

I think there is a great deal of joint working going forward now and CJCs, I think, are now really starting to work very well together. We have managed to work with the UK Government, actually, to deal with some of the key operational issues that were facing CJCs, including in relation to VAT and wider taxation issues. UK Government did introduce legislation to deal with those matters, because CJCs themselves felt that not having those taxation matters dealt with was preventing them, really, from moving forward together. So, I'm pleased that those issues have now been dealt with.

I think that I will also mention a piece of work that I've been doing with Cefin Campbell through our co-operation agreement, which is a review of the partnership landscape across Wales to make sure that the landscape that we have at the moment is fit for purpose. And as part of that work—and it didn't include CJCs, but it did include regional partnership boards, substance misuse boards, and also violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence and a whole range of other boards—we met with all of the chairs of those over a period of time and heard about their experiences in terms of the barriers to better collaboration. So, now we're pulling together everything that we've heard from those conversations, and we'll be presenting a paper to the partnership council for Wales in July. We'll make sure that the Senedd is fully updated on our findings and our recommendations for the way forward as well.

Continuing with this theme—

Yes. Public services boards are an effective vehicle for cross-public-service collaboration. Each has its own strengths and priorities. PSBs are now publishing their updated local well-being plans, and I'm working with the future generations commissioner to consider how best to support PSBs to deliver these.

Thank you. Clearly, PSBs play a crucial role in delivering on the seven well-being goals and the ways of working of the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015. What role, in your view, are PSBs playing in tackling food security, whether it's nurturing local farming and food businesses, procuring food locally for schools, hospitals and homes, or ensuring affordable food is available locally to all households in the midst of this cost-of-living crisis?

I'm really grateful to Jenny Rathbone for raising this and, in anticipation of her question this afternoon, because I know how passionate Jenny is in terms of ensuring food security and the availability of good quality food, I have asked officials to look at all nine of the 13 public services boards' well-being plans that have been published so far. And I'm really pleased that all of those plans have prioritised food in at least one of their objectives, and the priorities relate to sustainable food, food security, food poverty and also supply chains, depending on the particular focus of the PSB. PSBs have learned, from experience, that having too many objectives, I think, was difficult in the past. So, they have narrowed down those number of objectives, but to have food as part of those objectives in all of those plans I think really speaks to the important role that PSBs themselves recognise that they can play in this particular space.

We are expecting all of the remaining plans to be submitted very shortly, and it's the intention then to publish those as a suite together. But, yes, PSBs, I think, have a really important role to play. And I did have the opportunity to speak to the future generations commissioner earlier this week. I know that Jenny met with him last week to discuss some of these issues as well. So, we're, I think, all very much on the same page.

Yes, I will. Since its introduction in 2009, the invest-to-save programme has supported approximately 200 projects, with an aggregate value in the region of £200 million. Most recently, it has provided funding for three new projects, helping us to deliver our programme for government commitment in respect of looked-after children. 

Can I thank the Minister for that response? Invest-to-save is a project I've consistently supported. Using investment to produce long-term savings by greater efficiency will increase productivity. This is the way forward for the public sector, assuming we're not going to have infinite sums of money in the future. Will the Minister comment on the success of invest-to-save and how the learning from projects is being copied by other organisations? As we've seen far too often, in Wales, everyone has to discover the benefits themselves as if it was for the first time.

Absolutely, and I share Mike Hedges's passion, if you like, for invest-to-save and everything that that means for the future way in which we fund various things across Wales. And at this point, I just really recognise the work that Jane Dodds has done in this space as well, because the work that we're funding at the moment comes very much as part of the discussions that Jane and I had during the budget negotiations and discussions the year before last. So, as a result of that now, we have projects funding advocacy services to prevent families from breaking up; £1 million is now with the National Adoption Service to continue their Fostering Wellbeing programme; and also £4.4 million to support Foster Wales and enable them to expand their provision so that they can improve the ability of local authority fostering services to retain and support foster carers. So, I think all of that is really important, and I think the learning will spread probably more easily in the space of looked-after children and foster carers than it has in some other places. I know one of Mike Hedges's real concerns, and mine too, has been about how it's been difficult to move the success from the projects that have been supported through invest-to-save to making it kind of business as usual, making it the natural choice for businesses—sorry, for organisations—across Wales.

We did have some work done with Cardiff University, Nesta, that looked at why good practice was struggling to be spread across Wales through the invest-to-save scheme, and I think that we've been able to use that learning to find better ways to support some of the work that has taken place.

Currently, we have the invest-to-save funds ring-fenced within the health and social services group, and also within the looked-after children's team. I'll perhaps write to Mike Hedges with a bit more information about those things. 

The Local Government and Elections (Wales) Act 2021 put in place a new sector-led performance regime to drive improvement in local authorities across Wales. To support implementation, I have agreed £800,000 of funding for the Welsh Local Government Association improvement programme to provide for shared learning and corporate improvement across councils.

Thank you, Minister, that's excellent news. There seems to be a theme today on sharing of best practice and information between our councils, and it's something that I'm finding is lacking in policy areas across the board. Despite the sharing of best practice and information between councils being primarily the responsibility of the WLGA, as you've just said, and PSBs, as has already been outlined, surely it falls upon each Minister to ensure that delivery of policy is happening across the board and is happening to the very best standard across our country. The very best way to share this, of course, just from some examples of this, of what's not happening and what should be happening, is the Raglan Project in Monmouthshire County Council, for example, or perhaps a council that's excelling in recycling or delivering healthy food in our schools or having a mental health strategy in our schools that's really working. This sort of information, this sort of sharing of good practice, is not being shared, and it seems to be remiss of the Government to not ensure that their policies are being delivered properly on the ground. To that end, Minister, what action is the Welsh Government taking, and each Minister taking, to work alongside the WLGA to ensure that best practice is shared to each corner of Wales? Thank you.

Well, Ministers and officials regularly engage with a wide range of local authority-led networks in relation to the breadth of the sector's functions. So, those will include Cabinet members, it will include spokespeople for the WLGA and also officers will meet with our officials across the whole range of functions, and those really are invaluable opportunities for us to share opportunities and to hear the challenges, of course, that local authorities are experiencing in terms of delivering their functions as well.

I would say that our relationship with local government is a very open and honest one. I think that the level of engagement that we have is quite extraordinary in terms of the amount of meetings that take place both between Ministers and local authorities, but also between officials and officers. But, if there's more that we need to do, or if there are particular gaps where those networks are not in place, I would obviously look to close those. So, perhaps, if Laura Anne Jones wants to share with me some of the more detailed concerns, I'd be more than happy to look into those.

Finally, cwestiwn 9, Natasha Asghar. 

The Local Government and Elections (Wales) Act 2021 requires principal councils to put in place a participation strategy. This must set out how the council intends to encourage and enable local people to participate in decision making and scrutiny processes.

Thank you for your answer, Minister. As you'll be well aware, constituents often turn to us for help in their darkest hour, and usually, after they've been passed from pillar to post by local authorities and other agencies, they come to us with their woes and issues. Now, in fact, a lot of constituents I help aren't actually getting responses to the letters and e-mails they've been sending to their local authorities, and one council in south-east Wales in particular has been particularly poor with their responses. I can say that I know exactly how they're feeling, having written to this particular council, raising my constituents' issues on countless occasions. Sometimes I'll get a reply, albeit not very useful, but a reply nonetheless. Sometimes you may be redirected elsewhere or, as is often the case, the letters will get ignored. In one instance, I'm still waiting for a reply to a letter I sent on behalf of a constituent several months ago, despite chasing the local authority for the response. Minister, do you agree with me that this is simply unacceptable? And will you please write to all local authority leaders in south-east Wales, calling upon each and every single one of them to urgently review these processes, to ensure that constituents are responded to within a reasonable time frame and, if it is the case, that no party politics are at play?

Well, there are local protocols in place for dealing with issues when the council hasn't acted as it should when carrying out its duties. But, perhaps if the Member could could either have a conversation with me or write to me outside of this meeting, I'll look at the particular issue that is being discussed this afternoon.

 I thank the Minister.

The next item is the questions to the Minister for Rural Affairs and North Wales, and Trefnydd, and the first question is from Rhys ab Owen.

A team Wales approach is taken to protect and manage wildlife. Welsh Government has recently provided over £1 million for projects in the Vale of Glamorgan, to deliver nature-based projects, enable partnership working and improve connections between nature habitats in the Vale of Glamorgan.

Diolch, Weinidog. I've raised with you before the Model Farm issue, in Rhoose, in the Vale of Glamorgan, which grows and sells wildflowers, and it's under threat due to plans to build an industrial park on its land. The Jenkins family have been tenants on the farm for nearly 100 years, and the improvements to the rights of tenant farmers contained in the Agriculture (Wales) Bill will come too late for them, if they are turfed out of their land. This is not just their place of work; it's their home, their home for generations, destroyed. And what makes this story even more tragic is that this family also lost a previous farm in the 1940s in the Epynt, when their family were forced to leave when the British army seized their land. That family in the Epynt have yet to return, and the fear now for the Jenkins family is that they will lose their livelihood and their home yet again, but this time through an international developer rather than the British state. What can the Welsh Government do to protect the farm, to protect farmers like the Jenkins family, and the wildlife it sustains?

Thank you. I'm very sorry to hear about the experience of the Jenkins family. Clearly, tenant farmers are very important to us in Wales. A significant percentage of our farmers here in Wales are tenant farmers. There is obviously protection for tenants; they should obviously take the matter up with their landlords, and I would also urge them to contact the Tenant Farmers Association, to see if there's anything they can do to help. And, if you'd like to write to me, whilst I can't obviously interfere in an individual case, I will see if there's anything that we can do to help as well.

I've raised the issue of Model Farm with various Ministers in the Senedd here. The quality of land being protected is a component of the planning system. I appreciate it's not in your portfolio, Minister, but, obviously, that assessment of the quality of the land, and the protection of the wildlife on that land, should be a critical consideration within the planning system. It clearly isn't, when an example like Model Farm, where the local authority itself is promoting a business park that isn't required—and is proven not to be required, even by the developers themselves, who say it's a speculative development—and yet, over 100 acres of quality agricultural land that is habitat to many natural species that can be found in the Vale of Glamorgan is to be lost. So, what dialogue is undertaken between your officials and the planning Minister's officials to make sure that there are robust checks and balances within the planning system, that good-quality agricultural land that is of quality natural habitat as well is not sacrificed to unwanted developments such as the Model Farm business park?

[Inaudible.]—a significant amount of work and certainly, within my own portfolio, we've looked at land classification of agricultural land, because, as you say, it's very important that, as far as possible, it's protected for sustainable food production and also for our important habitats. I'm not aware of any specific conversations between my officials and the Minister for Climate Change's officials, particularly around the Model Farm that you've just raised with me. As I said in my answer to Rhys ab Owen, if he wants to write to me about it, I'll certainly be happy to look it up.

The Welsh food and drink industry continues to go from strength to strength, growing in both scale and reputation. Welsh Government is promoting food in north Wales through our food festivals, which include Gŵyl Fwyd Caernarfon, Wrexham Food Festival, Menai Food Festival, Denbigh Plum Festival and Llangollen Food Festival, to name but a few, as well as at our agricultural shows. 

Thank you very much, Minister. As I'm sure you'd agree, north Wales has some of the best food and drink, which is enjoyed around the world, and certainly will be enjoyed by a greater range of people, thanks to the trade deals being struck by the UK Government now being released from the shackles of the European Union.

One of the things, though, Minister, that breweries and other similar businesses in north Wales are concerned about is the possibility of glass being included in a deposit-return scheme. In my view, there's a commonsense DRS that excludes glass, and would see the scheme and its requirements aligned across the United Kingdom. You'll be aware that brewers are certainly very concerned, and potentially seeing breweries going out of business if this continues. So, Minister, can you expand on what you're doing to help reach this sensible UK-wide outcome, instead of doing things perhaps differently just for the sake of it? Thank you.  

Well, I see you're copying your leader. I noticed his tweet about doing things differently. It's not in my portfolio—it's in the portfolio of the Minister for Climate Change—but it previously was in my portfolio when we first went out to consultation about a DRS. And I have to say that I think it's England doing things differently for the sake of it. Certainly, when I was the Minister with responsibility, I remember having conversations with Thérèse Coffey in her previous ministerial position, along with our Scottish counterparts, and glass was absolutely part of that scheme. So, if anybody is doing things differently for the sake of it, I think it's England. 

I agree with what you say about north Wales hosting some of the best food and drink producers we have here in Wales. I disagree profoundly with you about the shackles of the EU being removed now, and, certainly, I haven't seen anything in the trade agreements that are currently being negotiated between the UK Government and other countries that demonstrate any clear benefits. But I do accept that there are concerns from some of the brewers, and I have had discussions, actually not with the Minister for Climate Change, but with the Minister for Economy. We met with some of the drink sector to discuss those concerns.

Questions now from party spokespeople. Conservative spokesperson, Samuel Kurtz. 

Diolch, Llywydd. Minister, the recent Audit Wales report highlighted that, at the end of March, £58 million remained unspent from the rural development programme, with the deadline for spending this money being the end of this year. How confident are you that all this money will be spent, and not a penny will be returned to the EU? 

I'm just as confident as the last time I was asked this question. It seems a lot of opposition Members are constantly asking me how confident I am about it. You mentioned a figure. Over £765 million of the total programme spend has now been spent; there's about 10 per cent still to go. And as you said yourself, we have until the end of this year to make sure all that money is spent. So, I can only be confident about what I've done, so what I've done is try to make sure that we've over-committed, because I think you have to learn lessons from previous programmes. Clearly, over-committing, I think, is okay to do, because there's quite often an underspend, because of challenges that beneficiaries face—I'm not criticising—and obviously COVID came along and there have been even more challenges. So, what I've been very clear about with my officials is they must work closely with the beneficiaries. It's really important that the beneficiaries, who tell us they can spend that money, do that. I've done what I can do; I want them to do what they can do, but also if they have any concerns, to highlight them with my officials as soon as possible. 

Thank you for those reassurances, Minister, but if we are being honest, the Welsh Government has a bit of a chequered history when delivering the rural development plan. In June 2020, Audit Wales identified that key aspects of the design, operation and oversight of the rural development fund were not effective enough to ensure that grant awards would deliver value for money. That's a damning indictment of the Welsh Government's performance. And that's without touching on the fact that your Government moved the absolute maximum amount of money away from direct support for Welsh farmers via pillar 1, over to pillar 2 and the RDP—the highest anywhere in the European Union. You've refused multiple requests from me and the unions to hold an independent review into the RDP delivery, and that ship has now sailed. But given the importance of future schemes, can you outline what lessons—and you mentioned lessons learnt—but what lessons have been learned from those experiences, so that Audit Wales aren't repeating the same criticisms in the near future?

Well, again, I will repeat what I’ve said many times in the Chamber, what lessons were learned, and it’s really important lessons are learned; I’m not dismissing that at all. The findings of the 2020 Audit Wales report have already been addressed, so we’ve had enhanced selection rules implemented to ensure that projects are selected openly and fairly. Projects were selected in merit order in accordance with the published scoring procedure, and value for money is a criteria for all project awards. And those principles are absolutely embedded within the RDP grant appraisal model, and are in place for any current and future rural investment schemes. We didn’t need an independent inquiry, because this programme is scrutinised within an inch of its life. There is a huge amount of scrutiny in relation to this programme.

Thank you, Minister, and yes, you mentioned that it was scrutinised, and we’re grateful for the work that Audit Wales did back in 2020 to bring that to light.

But, finally, you recently made a joint announcement with the Minister for Climate Change regarding tree planting in Wales, which states:

'payment rates will be uplifted to pay 100% of 2023's actual costs'.

Can I ask from where this money has been found to pay for this uplift? And as next month I believe you’re due to make a statement on the sustainable farming scheme ahead of the summer agricultural shows, was this joint statement by the climate change Minister and yourself just a sign of things to come: trees over everything else? Because I attended the Royal Welsh Agricultural Society’s Regen event at Sealands Farm in the Vale of Glamorgan last week, to see the good work that farmers are already doing through regenerative farming, and that’s what should be supported. I note that the Minister was unable to attend, but some of your officials were there. So, what guarantees can you give that the SFS will actually be tailored to support those farmers who are producing environmentally friendly food, be they tenants, upland farmers or lowland farmers? Diolch, Llywydd.

I’m very pleased you were able to attend the Regen '23 event at Sealands Farm. I’m looking forward to visiting Sealands Farm, I hope before summer recess, or certainly as we just go into summer recess, because I’ve heard of the excellent work that’s being undertaken there; as you say, some officials were able to attend.

Obviously, we’re still in the co-design phase of SFS. I will be bringing forward a statement before we go into summer recess. You’ll know from our many discussions that sustainable food production is absolutely at the heart of the sustainable farming scheme, but we need to plant more trees. We know that. I’m sure you’ve had the opportunity to read the latest UK Climate Change Committee report that if we are going to meet our carbon emission targets, particularly around agriculture, those trees need to be there.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Mabon ap Gwynfor.

Thank you, Llywydd. Well, it’s another sunny and hot day with the sun shining as it has been for around six weeks now. It’s early in the year to be talking about drought, but the truth is that the grass is already parched and the rivers are running dry, whilst a number of farmers have got their first cut in early in the year. The lack of rain means that the growth of grass for the second cut will be difficult, which will lead to difficulties with feed, not only with a shortage of grass on grazing land over the summer, but also with hay being in short supply as we look to the winter too. The price of buying in hay will increase, and drinking water will become scarce.

So, will the Minister give us an assessment of the impact of the higher temperatures and the decline in rainfall on agriculture, particularly with regard to crops and feed? Also, what steps is the Government taking to support farmers and to ensure the resilience of Welsh farms during these dry months, and those that are to come?

Well, we are certainly seeing the impacts of climate change, aren’t we? I was reflecting, because I remember a Royal Welsh Show—it’s probably about five years ago now—where we were in a very similar position. We all know what the temperatures at last year’s Royal Welsh Show were, and the fact is that this is now becoming much more the norm than what we were facing probably a decade ago, even.

I haven’t had any specific discussions about support for the agricultural sector. I’m sure it will come, and as we approach the Royal Welsh Show and the other agricultural shows in particular, I’m sure it will be a topic of conversation. I remember having a drought summit at one Royal Welsh Show because things had indeed got that bad. But as you know, everything we’re doing through the Agriculture (Wales) Bill and through the sustainable farming scheme that we will be bringing forward is to help our farmers become more competitive and more resilient as we certainly face the impact of climate change.

I thank the Minister for that response. I want to turn now to Glastir. Glastir, of course, is vital for a number of farmers in Wales—indeed, it's equivalent to between 10 per cent and 20 per cent of the turnover of a number of our farms. It's an important programme, which gives financial security to a number of farmers as they deliver steps to safeguard the environment and help the restoration of nature, such as improving water quality, protecting biodiversity, tree planting, developing habitats of importance, amongst other steps. But farmers have been in touch concerned about the stability of these payments in looking forward to next year. So, in the face of these concerns and the importance of Glastir to a number of our farmers, I wonder whether the Minister can give assurance to those farms today with regard to the Glastir payments for next year, and ensure that farmers hear what the financial plans are for 2024. 

Unfortunately, I can't give that assurance today. As we know, I extended Glastir contracts for a further year, which will take us up to the end of this year. I'm awaiting advice on what we do in relation to next year. Obviously, we're looking at the sustainable farming scheme, and that will be that transition, which, obviously, isn't until 2025, so we do have that gap in 2024. But I'm afraid I can't give any detail today.

Thank you. Welsh Government works closely with the Royal Welsh Agricultural Society and the Association of Show and Agricultural Organisations to support the development of the agricultural show sector across the whole of Wales.

Thank you, Minister. Our summer and agricultural shows truly embody the best of what Wales has to offer, and I thoroughly enjoy supporting them across my region of South Wales East, and beyond, and enjoy the world-class produce that my region boasts. We need to promote that more on a world stage. Sadly, the chairman of the Association of Show and Agricultural Organisations, Emlyn Jones, recently spoke about the challenges faced by agricultural shows this year. He said that there are a lot of things to fight against, such as sponsorship withdrawal. He also said that costs have increased for those keeping livestock, which has caused a 20 per cent to 30 per cent decrease in sheep, cattle and horse entries. Aled Rhys Jones, chief exec of the Royal Welsh Agricultural Society, also explained that many aspects of the infrastructure involved in enacting shows are costing a huge amount more than in 2019. I saw this in my own region, with the 150-year-old Monmouthshire Show, of course, being cancelled due to financial restraints last year. To me, this just sums up how fragile and vulnerable our shows actually are, and how much they need our support, encouragement, promotion and financial backing where possible in the coming summers. So, Minister, what support and moneys is the Welsh Government offering to our agricultural shows, to ensure that they can continue to show off the best Wales has to offer, for years to come?

Thank you. I don't disagree with anything you say about our agricultural shows—they are absolutely part of the fabric Wales, and I too enjoy attending many of them across Wales. The significant amount of funding, obviously, goes to the Royal Welsh Show, which is obviously a massive showcase for the sector here in Wales, and we support other shows as well. I know there are a few of the agricultural shows in your own region that benefited from money when we had the innovation fund during COVID, where, unfortunately, shows couldn't go ahead. I think you make a really important point about public support; it's really important that we all ask ourselves what we can do as members of the public to support the shows. I saw what Emlyn Jones said, and I certainly have had several discussions with Aled Jones, as he approaches his first Royal Welsh Show as chief executive. I know, for instance, they're not going forward with the horticultural marquee, which I think is a real shame—they've got some other ideas, which are very exciting and innovative, and we certainly support them. What I would say is that I don't have much money, there's no point pretending I do, but if there's any show—. There was one show in your constituency—I think it was Machen—that had just over £200, which really helped them. That's a very small amount of money on the scale of things. So, if there is a show that feels we can help in some small way—and it would be a small amount of money—please get them to write to me, and I'll certainly look at it.

The Welsh Government is committed to restoring freshwater habitats. We have put in place new regulations, supported with funding and advice, to ensure we reduce losses of pollutants from agriculture to the environment. We are building nature networks, protecting wildlife, working in partnership with Natural Resources Wales, and others, and delivering our sustainable farming scheme. 

Thank you, Minister. I was delighted to hear that otters have been spotted around stretches of the River Cynon following a clean-up project. Otter numbers had declined due to pollution levels on the rivers, but their return is a welcome sight, and it's thanks to the River for All  project, which aims to improve biodiversity with volunteers restoring and monitoring the rivers. Of course, the River Cynon is lucky to have received private funding and a team of volunteers to carry out the clean-up operations. Rivers in my region are not that lucky. Minister, what action will the Welsh Government take to replicate the fantastic work by the River for All project across South Wales West, to ensure that otters and other river wildlife are a common sight once again?

I saw the article on the BBC that I think the Member is referring to, where otters were returning to the River Cynon following that clean-up that you referred to. Certainly, in north Wales, I've been invited to go and view an area where otters have returned as well. Clearly, it is something that I think we should absolutely encourage, and if there's anything we can do—. We have a few pots of money, different schemes, where we can help ensure that that continues to happen, and I'd be very happy to look at them. The majority of the schemes are within the Minister for Climate Change's portfolio, but I'll be happy to have that discussion with her. 

Thank you. I am extremely frustrated and disappointed with the UK Government’s decision to dismantle the Animal Welfare (Kept Animals) Bill, and I've written to the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs expressing my frustration. My officials are currently considering Wales’s options and are working at pace to determine the next steps.

Thank you for that answer, Minister. I, like you, am very disappointed to see the UK Government's latest u-turn. It could have driven forward improvements in the lives of millions of animals in the UK. I appreciate several elements of the Bill relate to reserved matters, but note that the Welsh Government had previously indicated that it would be minded to introduce a legislative consent memorandum, so that its provisions applied to Wales. With that in mind, do you have any intention of bringing forward your own proposals over the areas that are devolved, such as the keeping of primates as pets, as part of the Welsh Government's wider work to improve animal welfare in Wales?

Thank you. As I say, we've done an incredible amount of work in relation to this Bill, because, contrary to what Sam Rowlands has just mentioned, and Andrew RT Davies tweets about, we don't have to do things differently. [Interruption.] About being different—I'm very happy to work with the UK Government if I think it's for the benefit of Wales; I'm not happy to work with them if I think they're being disrespectful or not doing the things that we would want.

I was very happy to work with the UK Government on this Bill, because I really felt it would deliver significant benefits for animal welfare here in Wales, which, as you know, Vikki, the same as you, is a priority for me. I could see this coming. I'd had numerous conversations with the Secretary of State, and with the Minister of State in our regular inter-ministerial group meetings. I'd even written—because I could see this was coming—to try and encourage them that, after such a significant amount of work, they would not just throw this Bill away.

I understand from my officials now that the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs do intend to advance some of the provisions in the Bill, and one of them is around primates, as a statutory instrument under the Animal Welfare Act 2006. So, I will certainly look to see if there's anything we can do to work with them on that. My understanding is that they would look to introduce legislation by the end of this year, but again, apparently, it came with a caveat that this was an ambitious timetable. So, frankly, I don't trust them on it. It's really important that my officials now do look to see what we can do with the provisions—you mentioned the one about primates—and I know officials are currently working with lawyers to determine how we can progress. 

The Welsh Government offers a range of support to assist agricultural businesses to diversify. The subsidised advice, mentoring and training provided by Farming Connect complements our grant schemes. Alongside our dedicated diversification grant, our horticulture and food business investment grants offer opportunities and support for farm businesses to branch out.

Thank you for your answer, Minister. One area I'm particularly concerned about, and I know the farming community are concerned about, is when Welsh Government encourage, rightly so, farming businesses to diversify, they then feel like they're being ultimately punished by particular policy decisions of the Welsh Government—the tourism tax being one, for example—when those farm businesses have been asked to diversify into those types of areas.

But the particular issue I wanted to raise with you, Minister, is NRW's consultation on game birds. The farming community certainly hopes, and so do colleagues on this side, that this won't morph into a ban on the shooting of game, because aside from the environmental benefits, the economic importance to the sector is considerable. Several shooting businesses exist because agricultural businesses have diversified. So, can I ask the Minister to make representations in Cabinet to persuade her colleagues, in order that we don't see a policy position that ends up in the banning of shooting game that would have a real devastating impact on many rural farming businesses and communities?

I certainly haven't had complaints from the agricultural sector that if they diversify they would then feel they were being punished. I think it's nearly 50 per cent now of non-micro farms across Wales that have had some diversification action, so I think you can see how important it is for our farming businesses to build that resilience that we were talking about before and is needed. It really does provide an opportunity, I think, for farmers to protect their businesses from the impact of price fluctuations, for instance.

You refer to a consultation that's currently going ahead. You wouldn't expect me to pre-empt it. It's not in my portfolio. But these things come along, as you say, as policy. Obviously I make representations, if needed, but looking at the consultation that's going ahead, I think we need to await the responses. 

The Welsh Government has until 31 December 2023 to fully spend all of its EU funding, which I remain fully committed to achieving. I was pleased to see Audit Wales recognise the steps we have taken to overcommit our available funding in order to maximise spending in Wales. 

Thank you for that response. Of course, it's a great disappointment that the Minister and I will share that we are discussing the final expenditure from the rural development programme, which has been so important to areas such as my constituency, and not being part of the next cycle of funding will be a major blow. I appreciate the challenges that have faced the Government recently, inflation being one of them, but I do welcome the news in the report that the Government has been able to spend a fair amount of the remaining budget for 2023. But there is still £58 million remaining. I represent a rural area. I want to help the Minister to spend this money. Last week, I visited Food Works in Weston-super-Mare, which is a model of the kind of food production park that I've raised with the Minister on a number of occasions. Give us an opportunity. We will help you to spend that money on Anglesey on such a scheme. 

This isn't money that's just slopping around. All this money has been committed, plus I have overcommitted, as you referred to. I don't think you were in the Chamber when I answered three questions from Sam Kurtz on the RDP and the Audit Wales report that you referred to. What I said to Sam Kurtz, and I will repeat for your benefit, is I've overcommitted because we've learnt lessons. We know that quite often there are underspends because sometimes it's difficult for beneficiaries to be able to spend the money, due to a variety of challenges. I've done everything I can to make sure we get as much money out as quickly as possible. You referred to the £58 million. That represents less than 10 per cent of the entire programme. They've still got until the end of December to spend that money. What's really important is that if there are any difficulties with spending that money, my officials are told about them quickly, so that we can look to see what we can do to help, because it's really important that we maximise the spend in response to all the challenges that we've had. We do need to work together, but I'm afraid there isn't any money that I can now allocate to anybody else, because that money has long been allocated and we've overcommitted. But I do agree with you that it's really disappointing that we're not going to have that funding anymore.

I'd just like to press the Minister on this further. It's very good to hear that you said this money has been overcommitted and you're confident that this money will be spent, but, for the benefit of all Members in this Chamber, if you could just outline what some of those projects are, and if you'd be willing to share a list of those projects around to Members, so that we can all see that Welsh Government is spending this money and that none of this money is going to be returned back to the UK.

Okay, I'll repeat it again: I cannot spend the money; I have allocated the money. I have overallocated the money, and I've done everything I can—[Interruption.] It's now up to the—[Interruption.] Do you want to listen? Good. It's up to the beneficiaries, who've told us that they can absolutely spend that money, that they spend that money. It's really important that they give us a heads-up if there are any difficulties so that officials can work with them to make sure. So, whilst I say I am confident, obviously I'm not spending that money. If I was spending that money, I would be more confident, wouldn't I? But I'm confident that what we've done, by learning lessons from previous RDP schemes, where we know there is always an underspend, by overcommitting the funding, I hope that we will absolutely maximise that spending. I don't want to send any money back to the UK Government, I can absolutely assure you, or to the European Union prior to that. It's really important that that money is spent here in Wales. Certainly, from a commercial point of view, if I am able to allow Members to have access to information around the schemes, I'd be very happy to do that, but I will have to check that.

Good afternoon, Minister. I just want to focus on small businesses and microbusinesses, particularly in rural areas. Many of those will be Welsh speaking microbusinesses and small family firms. The RDP has helped some of those small businesses and microbusinesses, particularly in Welsh-speaking communities. I just really want to just seek your assurances that the scheme going forward—the RDP replacement or whatever it will be—will actually look at ensuring that the support continues to those small businesses and microbusinesses, and how you will also be measuring that and ensuring that there's a good impact, particularly on our Welsh-speaking rural communities as well. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Thank you. We're not having a replacement RDP programme, because I'm not sure what funding I'm going to get from the UK Government, and, as you know, our big scheme will be the sustainable farming scheme, and it's really important that every farm is able to access that. But, obviously, you're talking about rural economy, and I think again it is very important that we do as much as we can to recognise the importance of community-led approaches, if you like, to the challenges that our rural economy does face. So, I will have to look at the budget. There are really significant limitations being placed on us as a Government on funding by the UK Government. If you look at their approach to the shared prosperity fund, for instance, and the limited budget that's available to us, I've had to prioritise my core commitments. So, if you look at the LEADER programme, for instance, I think that's an excellent scheme that we've had in our rural communities, but I simply don't have the funding available to continue with this programme. But what we are doing—and it's not just in my portfolio, but right across Government with my Cabinet colleagues—is looking at what wider rural issues we can support through the delivery of the programme for government.

Thank you. The UK Government's Animal Welfare (Kept Animals) Bill proposed prohibiting the keeping, breeding, sale and transfer of primates without specific licence. I supported its provisions in full and I'm extremely frustrated it's been dismantled.

I just want to say very unequivocally that primates are not suitable to be kept as pets, and certainly homes are not suitable for keeping primates. The Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals has needed to rescue monkeys whose welfare has been compromised by owners in Wales and has directly encountered how private primate ownership can lead to suffering. The Welsh Government has a very good record on animal welfare, which I hope will continue. Following on from Vikki Howells earlier, will the Minister consider taking action to outlaw the private ownership of primates and save countless monkeys from a life of misery in inappropriate settings?

Thank you. As I said in my original answer to you, what the Animal Welfare (Kept Animals) Bill was doing was to better regulate and license. It wasn't looking at a complete ban; it was just looking at the regulations. I hope that would have been a significant step to where we would be, following the Bill.

I mentioned to Vikki Howells that I'd asked officials to work with lawyers to have a look to see what we can do in relation to that, and I will certainly be very interested, if it's correct what officials have been told, that DEFRA are looking to do this through a statutory instrument, and I'd be very happy to work with them to do that, because I think they would go out to consultation, and we could look then to legislation. And maybe that would be the opportunity also to see if we could strengthen it to look at a ban. I honestly don't know the answer to that, but I think it is something that we could look at.

I've also requested data under the Dangerous Wild Animals Act 1976 from our local authorities to see exactly what the extent of private ownership is here in Wales, because I think it would be good to see how significant, or not, the problem is.

The Welsh Government is committed to supporting the food and drink industry in Wales in respect of environmental and economic sustainability, and to ensure the industry continues to deliver to address the needs of the people of Wales.

Thank you, Minister, for that answer. As you're aware, sustainable food production will be fundamental in our quest for food security here in Wales. Sadly, I believe the benefits for future generations of anchoring food security in legislation were not recognised recently. However, the fact remains that there is huge demand for Government to take action that spans wider than the agricultural Bill or the sustainable farming scheme or any community food strategy, and I welcome the commitments you've made to date.

Last month, the Economy, Trade and Rural Affairs Committee made several recommendations to the Government. One was the publication of a document setting out all of the Government's food policies across departments, showing how these align against the Government's key overarching objectives in relation to food. Minister, can the Senedd expect such a document to be published and, if so, when would you envisage it being available for scrutiny?

Thank you. Yes, the Senedd can expect it. I'm going to say 'autumn this year'. I'll say 'autumn this year', but, you know, it might extend into the winter. But, just to let you know, there's a significant amount of work already going on across Government. And you will have heard me say in response to the debate on your food Bill—I think it was in answer to Jenny Rathbone—that the First Minister was going to convene all Ministers, along with our officials, to look at the significant food policy work that was going on across Government to try and link it up. The First Minister chaired that meeting yesterday, and it was fascinating. Even I learned things that were going on within food. Food sits within my portfolio, but to hear of the significant work going on right across Government, from nearly every Minister, in relation to food policy—. So, what I've asked officials to do now is to bring all that work together in a single document. Some of it will absolutely fit into the work of the community food strategy, which, as you know, we're working on with Plaid Cymru as part of the co-operation agreement to bring forward that community food strategy. Others won't fit into the community food strategy, but I think it will be important to bring all that work together in the document that you've just referred to. So, the first stage of the work will be to bring the work together. I've asked for that be done by the end of this term, so in just over four weeks' time. That can be then looked at over the summer, looking forward then to bringing forward the document that you've just questioned me about. So, as I say, I hope it will be the autumn, but if I say before Christmas, I think I'll cover myself.

I've consulted on proposals and published a summary of responses last month. Officials are now developing regulations to deliver on our commitment to require CCTV in all slaughterhouses. I plan to introduce these by spring 2024.

It's very good to hear that, Minister. I'm sure you would agree that animals slaughtered in Wales should be the subject of the highest possible standards and regulations. And would you agree with me that the consultation showed quite clearly the strength of public opinion in favour of the highest possible standards? As a Member of this Senedd, animal welfare is one of the most prominent aspects of the postbag that I receive, and I'm sure that's reflected across the Chamber. So, with that background, Minister, I'm very pleased to hear that you'll be pressing ahead with these new standards, and I hope you can do so effectively from the first day of implementation.

Yes, thank you. I absolutely agree with you. Whenever there is any issue or consultation in relation to animal welfare, my postbag certainly, as an MS, always increases; I definitely think people prefer animals to people, and it's always a matter of great importance, I think, to our constituents. And, of course, animal welfare is absolutely a priority for me as Minister and for the Welsh Government, and one of the reasons I brought the five-year animal welfare plan in when we first came back after the election two years ago was to show the scope of work that we intend to do in the animal welfare space.

There were over 16,000 responses to the consultation, and overwhelmingly they were in support of having CCTV in our slaughterhouses, and, I have to say, all the large slaughterhouses here in Wales do already have CCTV. And, I should say, CCTV cannot replace direct oversight by a slaughterhouse manager, or even the official vets that have to be there. So, I think we should be reassured that there are very, very high standards in our slaughterhouses across Wales.

Janet Finch-Saunders is not in the Chamber to ask question 11, so question 12, Tom Giffard.

I have regular discussions with all of my Cabinet colleagues on a range of topics, including tourism in rural communities. Our strategy, 'Welcome to Wales: Priorities for the Visitor Economy 2020-2025', sets our vision and ambition for the sector across Wales.

Thank you, Minister, for your answer, and for getting to question 12—I didn't think I'd be called today. [Laughter.]

You have Janet Finch-Saunders to thank for that. [Laughter.]

I regularly have Janet Finch-Saunders to thank, Llywydd. [Laughter.]

Can I raise with you the issue of the 182-day rule that's been brought in by the Welsh Government? Obviously, the predominant form, if you like, of visitor accommodation in rural communities will be the self-catering holiday let properties, so we know that any potential tax changes would disproportionately have an impact on those rural communities. So, I'm just wondering, from your perspective, as the rural communities' voice, if you like, around the Cabinet table, whether there's been a specific rural impact assessment done on the impact that these changes could have not only on the self-catering holiday let properties themselves, but the wider infrastructure—that local pub, the local shop and so on—that visitors can often keep viable. So, can you confirm whether or not that work has been done, please, and what specific representations have you made about this policy on behalf of rural communities?

Well, obviously, when any policy is discussed around the Cabinet table, every Minister has a view and brings forward significant points on policy to test it. The economic impact will have been done. I don't know if it will have specifically looked at rural communities, but I will certainly ask that question and write to the Member.FootnoteLink

I thank the Minister.

The next item is the topical questions. There are two topical questions today, and both will be answered by the Minister for Economy, and the first of those is to be asked by Jayne Bryant. 

Thank you. It is sad news that Tuffnells parcels has entered into administration. This took place yesterday, and I know this will be devastating for management and staff. Our focus now will be on supporting those affected workers here in Wales.

Thank you for that answer, Minister. As you mentioned, one of those depots is situated in Rogerstone, in my constituency of Newport West, and it has been confirmed that all of the 75 workers there have been made redundant. This is devastating news to all those workers and their families, who are in this situation due to no fault of their own. In what is already an extremely difficult year for many, the suddenness of this announcement seems particularly cruel.

The workers are obviously the priority, and they have been let down, but there are also other businesses and subcontractors who will be affected by this, with one local business having several outstanding invoices. Minister, I know the Welsh Government and your officials always act swiftly in these situations, but can you assure me that support will be mobilised for the workforce so that they're given the best advice in terms of possible connections to other employers and opportunities for training? I've already been contacted by a number of local businesses offering their support and help. And do you have any advice to give the other local businesses affected about how they can contact the administrators for the services that they are owed?

Thank you for the question. There's a number of really important practical points there, and I recognise that one of the Tuffnells depots is indeed in her constituency in Rogerstone. The difficulty we have in the Welsh Government is that there was no contact from the company to us, at any point, to indicate it was in distress, so we found out when the announcement was actually made that administrators were appointed yesterday. It's part of a much larger group, with over 2,000 people directly employed by Tuffnells, so it'll be a shock to workers as well. Now, the challenge is about what they are able to do and how they get those forms of support. The administrators have provided their details on the Tuffnells website—they've got contact details. If you're an individual, people can contact the Welsh Government. If people contact through your office, we can take forward that advice. But we're looking to work with the administrators to make sure that there's clear advice and understanding of the support that the Welsh Government can provide, for example, through our ReAct Plus programme or our Communities for Work Plus programme and, potentially, links through Careers Wales, to help people find alternative work. We also have a constructive relationship with the Department for Work and Pensions as well and about the sort of support they may be able to provide.

For any businesses that are affected, they should definitely contact Business Wales, to understand what we can do to try to direct them in terms of their rights. But they also should have direct contact with the administrators and about where they are in the line of credit and what they can do, if they do have outstanding invoices that have not been paid.

Part of the challenge of dealing with the workforce is that we don't believe, we don't understand there to be a recognised union on either the site in the Member's constituency or across the wider business. That then means that workers are needing to be organised after the event. I think it makes it even more important that there's direct contact with both the administrators' office and, indeed, as I say, through co-ordinating local officials. So, I'd be very happy to meet the Member to have a practical conversation with her and/or her UK parliamentary colleague to understand the sort of calls for advice that you're getting from the 70-odd people who are permanently employed, or were permanently employed on the site, and to make sure that they do have easy access to support that's available from Welsh Government or, indeed, as I say, the DWP.

I'd like to thank Jayne for asking this question; I'd echo the comments that have been made about the loss of these jobs. It's another bitter blow for the region I represent, which comes on the back of hundreds of job losses at Tillery Valley Foods Ltd in Cwmtillery and Avara Foods in Abergavenny.

Minister, you've expressed real concern about the latest rise in unemployment for Wales because, at 4.8 per cent, it's a full percentage point higher than the UK average. I note and I welcome the points you've made about the package of support that's being made available to those made redundant by Tuffnells. Could you talk us through, please, whether you think the site could be repurposed for alternative employment? And could you please give the Senedd an idea of what the Welsh Government is doing to address these really concerning figures about the national increase in unemployment? Thank you.

Well, with respect, I won't answer the last part of that, because I there's a further topical question from one of your colleagues on the figures that came out yesterday.

When it comes to the potential to support and challenge that is available here, part of the good news is that, for workers with skills and in logistics and related areas, there is still a need for people in that sector. So, I'm cautiously optimistic that we'll be able to provide people with alternative opportunities for work. When it comes to the site, I don't physically have knowledge of the site itself, but on the more general point around employment sites, all of our local authorities and, indeed, the Welsh Government, are looking at sites for employment. It's probably the better side of the equation to have about demand for employment sites, so I'm very keen that this site continues to be an employment site. We have regular enquiries from businesses that are looking to expand that are already here in Wales, as well as potential investors into Wales, and ones who are having significant employment sites available is actually something that we are looking to do to expand and to maintain those sites.

The Member mentioned Tillery Valley Foods—I met again with the task force, attended by the constituency Member for Blaenau Gwent, Alun Davies, this morning, and again, we're clear that we want that significant site for employment to remain an employment site, and not just to help the current workforce who are looking to find alternative work. There's still a significant number of people who are looking for alternative work, following the demise of Tillery Valley Foods, as well as making sure that there are future employment opportunities on that site. And it's a real point of intent that we've worked very constructively with the local authority, with constituency Members and more than one party on. And in the same way, we're also looking at Avara Foods in Monmouthshire, and, at the same, as I say, there is a practical and constructive relationship with the Department for Work and Pensions to find alternative work for the directly affected workforce.  

I thank the Minister for the response to the first question. Luke Fletcher to ask the second question. 

Thank you for the question. Labour market data should be interpreted in the round and draw on a range of sources, including those looking at longer term trends. The labour force survey results that the Office for National Statistics published are in themselves relatively volatile, as the sample size is small for Wales. Our statisticians advise that a single month's set of results should not be relied on as a definitive representation of labour market conditions in Wales, albeit we are concerned about a number of areas in the economy in Wales, and it remains part of the discussions we have both internally with business, trade union stakeholders, and, indeed, with the UK Government. 

Thank you for that response, Minister. 

Regardless of whether this is a blip or a trend, surely the Government would be preparing for the worst outcome, rather than potentially sitting on its hands and carrying on as if it's business as usual. Last month when we raised concerns regarding recent increases in the rate of unemployment and economic inactivity, both you and the First Minister dismissed the figures as a snapshot. Since then, of course, we've had another release of data from the ONS. We now have the lowest rate of employment across the whole of the UK, and the joint highest rate of unemployment, higher than anywhere else in the UK since last year. We've seen further rises in the rate of economic inactivity, which have also increased to a greater extent in Wales over the past year than anywhere else in the UK.

And, as I mentioned last month, this is against the long-term underperformance of the Welsh economy on productivity, which has shown no discernible improvements since 1998. On practically every metric for employment and economic performance, the picture in Wales is one of stagnation and managed decline. Considering these latest figures, considering the number of closures of workplaces we're hearing about—we had a question on the closure of Tuffnells just five minutes ago—and considering the concerns within multiple sectors of the economy, does the Minister agree that we need a far franker assessment of the state of the Welsh economy than the one he provided last month? 

No, I think that is not a fair reflection on the action of the Government or on the series of statements that I've made about the current position of the economy and the prospects for the future. We are certainly not sitting on our hands and acting complacently. The honest difficulty that we have is that labour force survey figures are relatively volatile, and ONS are looking to revise the labour force survey during the rest of this year to provide more certainty. The more certain picture we have is less timely—it's the annual population survey, and that shows quite a different picture. It still continues to show Welsh unemployment levels below the UK level, it continues to show that there has been, over the period of devolution—and I completely reject his points around productivity—we have seen real improvements in productivity, as well as in employment. And until the post-pandemic period, we'd also seen improvements in economic inactivity rates as well. 

And it's worth pointing out that the pay-as-you-earn figures, which cover employees not self-employment, actually show an improvement over the last year, and they show an improvement over the last month of figures available. So, that evidence suggests that employment is growing in Wales, and that's not subject to a small survey sample, and so it's a confounding picture. It is possible that something entirely different is happening in the self-employed sector of the economy, and I think it's honest to say that we do still have an ongoing challenge with economic inactivity. That's taking place also in large parts of the rest of the UK. The headline figures I think do provide a challenge for economic inactivity in itself, because it still covers full-time students. And obviously, we expect most of those full-time students to go on to secure employment. 

I think the wider point is—. And I just want to remind the Member and others in the Chamber that when I've spoken about the future of the economy, I've been really clear about some of the risks that we are facing, about some of the unevenness in the economy as well. Whilst the UK may avoid a recession, there'll be some sectors where there are significant unemployment events through this year, and other areas where there is real growth and employment. And we still face a challenge in having the available labour and the match-up of the jobs that are available. Some of that really is about the work that we're already trying to do to help people back into the world of work when they are generally economically inactive, and that's work that, actually, we could do with a constructive approach together with the UK Government.

So, there are risks and challenges, yes, and I think I've been very frank about those. I think we could see another blip in the wrong direction when it comes to the withdrawal of what's left of the energy support scheme for businesses, but there will continue to be opportunities, some of which I have seen for myself today in meeting the Port of Milford Haven to look at current opportunities and near-side opportunities to significantly increase growth in that part of Wales, and there are others too, as well. I look forward to being frank and honest about where we are, but I certainly won't apologise for being upbeat about those sectors of our economy where there is real potential for growth that should benefit all of us.

Minister, regardless of what you might say, these latest figures are very worrying. As the economic picture has improved elsewhere across the UK, the Welsh Government must address why there is a pattern of decline here in Wales, and we must better understand the Government's plans to address and improve this situation. Now, earlier this year, the National Institute of Economic and Social Research argued that since devolution Welsh economic policies, 

'have lacked coherence and consistency, and ambitions have not been matched by effective implementation.'

Let me remind you, Minister, that that report was in fact co-authored by a former Welsh Labour Government Minister. Therefore, can you tell us exactly how the Welsh Government will prioritise job creation in this Senedd term to ensure that this decline is now addressed? Can you also tell us what new measures will be introduced to support and nurture more entrepreneurship here in Wales? Finally, can you also confirm that you will urgently review the Government's employability and skills action plan in light of this pattern of decline, given that your current plan seems not to be working?

Well, again, I understand the point that the Member makes given that he's a Conservative Member and the avoidance of some of the facts. When you look at the period of devolution, productivity has increased in Wales over the period of devolution. We started with a significant period of unemployment in Wales being higher than the UK average. The long-term trend has been lower; that's why these figures are particularly concerning and the confounder of, as I say, the PAYE data, which shows that the number of people in paid, direct employment has increased in Wales over the last year, and increased in Wales over the last quarter and the last month. Those are facts, not opinions.

When it comes to job creation, we've regularly talked about what we're doing to support entrepreneurship through a range of our programmes. We also have the challenges over investing in skills for the future, as well, and, again, that's been part of today's conversation with businesses. In all of these areas, there is a Welsh Government plan and approach that businesses themselves welcome. Our challenge is whether we're able to meet the scale of that challenge, and whether, actually, we have a UK Government that works alongside us or not. There are times when the UK Government is relatively constructive, and free ports is just one example. There are others where they are not so constructive: the conversations we are still not having properly around the future of the steel sector, the deliberate and wasteful competition on intervening in skills policy. These are areas where we could always have a better ask and a better deal for the people of Wales, if only Conservative Ministers were prepared to act in a constructive way and to invest in the future of our economy, as, indeed, we will continue to do for and on behalf of the people of Wales.

I have to say I've rarely heard such nonsense from Conservatives in this Chamber, but Paul Davies has clearly not been watching or listening in the last 12 months where we've had a masterclass in economic incompetence and mismanagement from Elizabeth Truss, from Boris Johnson and now from the current Prime Minister. The only thing they have in common is that they don't give a damn about this place and they don't give a damn about the people who pay their wages.

Minister, what we have seen over the last few years has been slow economic growth, slow GDP growth across the United Kingdom—that's been slower than all of our major competitors. And in the last two years, GDP growth has almost come to an end. Since a hard Brexit was imposed on this country, we have seen GDP growth come to an end for the first time in decades, as a consequence of decisions taken in London. Do you agree with me, Minister, that the only way that Wales will benefit from the investments that you are making is if we return to the single market, we return to the customs union and we have a UK Government that believes in redistribution of wealth across the United Kingdom, and has the eradication of inequality as a core objective of economic policy.

I thank the Member for his question, but also for his engagement this morning around the future of members of his community in Abertillery and the work we’re doing, both with Avara, where lots of the workforce are indeed from Blaenau Gwent, as well as Tillery Valley Foods.

When businesses describe the challenges that they have, the new trading conditions of Brexit are one of the issues they raise regularly, together with energy prices, which are still a significant problem, which is why I’m so concerned about the withdrawal of the last vestiges of support from the energy support the UK Government has provided. Inflation remains a continued concern, as indeed does the availability of a workforce and investment in skills. On each of those areas, there is much scope for improvement.

We, here in the Welsh Government, are doing all that we can to support people to trade with the current realities post Brexit, and to actually try and support those businesses with the levers we have available to us. I absolutely agree that improved trading conditions with our closest trading block, our European partners, who will always be our physical neighbours, would be a significant positive for the UK economy and the economy here in Wales. Trade with the EU is a bigger chunk of our economy than other parts of the UK, and I do look forward to a more grown-up conversation around our relationship with the European Union if there is a change in Government. That also, I think, would make a big difference when it comes to investing in the future of our economy, when it comes to recognising regional inequalities, and looking to do something deliberately with the power of the UK Government to work with us to address those issues here in Wales. It’s part of the reason I’m continuing to engage with the current UK Government, as well as those who may appear in a future UK Government, to make sure that the needs of Wales are recognised when future investments do come into Wales, to transform the lives of the communities that we are privileged to represent here in the Welsh Parliament.

We have a point of order now from Darren Millar.

Diolch, Llywydd. I’d like to raise a point of order in relation to a comment made by the Minister for Health and Social Services last week in the debate in which my party called for the Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board to publish the Ernst & Young report, which there’s been a lot of speculation about and a lot of public interest in in north Wales. In the debate on that report, the Minister said, and I quote:

'The audit committee of the Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board, on advice from the Welsh Government, commissioned Ernst & Young to undertake a forensic review of accounting management after Audit Wales qualified the health board's accounts for 2021-22 and identified internal control failures.'

That assertion has been disputed by the former chair of the health board, who said the statement was 'misleading and inaccurate'. He also said that it was certainly not commissioned—the report—on the advice of the Welsh Government, and, in addition to that, the former vice-chair of the audit committee of the health board, the former independent member Richard Micklewright, said that

'the Welsh government was not involved in the decision in any way nor was its input sought.'

Clearly, there’s a dispute about whether that statement is accurate or not. If it is not accurate, the statement which the Minister made, then she may have inadvertently misled this Senedd. So, I would be very grateful—given the public interest in this matter, it’s essential that we get to the truth—I’d be very grateful if the Minister could address these concerns as soon as possible.

I thank you for giving me warning of that point of order, so, further to that point of order, the Minister for health, Eluned Morgan.

Thanks very much. I’d like to thank Darren Millar for the opportunity to set out the situation. The director general of the NHS in Wales, Judith Paget, spoke directly to the then chief executive of Betsi, Jo Whitehead, following the Audit Wales report that found allegations of financial misstatements, and recommended that the health board should undertake a full investigation to understand how the misstatements had occurred. The Welsh Government did not commission the report, and I’ve never suggested that the Welsh Government commissioned the report, but it is probably fair to say that there was not a direct conversation, to my knowledge, between the Welsh Government and the audit committee of the Betsi board, but there was a conversation, as I have noted, which took place between the CEO of the NHS in Wales and the CEO of Betsi, and I’m happy to correct the record on that score.

The audit committee of Betsi then commissioned the Ernst & Young report. The former board of Betsi must take full responsibility for that, and for all the terms and conditions associated with the report.

Thank you to both Darren Millar for the point of order and to the Minister for the clarification.

We'll move on, therefore, to the 90-second statements, and the first statement from Jack Sargeant.

Diolch, Llywydd. Llywydd, I recently met with James Hunt of Nanny Biscuit in my constituency, who are the organisers of the Grand Week in Wales, and the Grand Week in Wales aims to celebrate the rich cultural history of our country whilst also supporting a variety of local and national charities. The name, the Grand Week in Wales, is given in recognition of Wales's 1,000-mile circumference, Llywydd, and the organisers are asking people to join in and raise money by taking part in one of their creative 1,000-themed challenges, whether this be doing 1,000 good deeds, 1,000 Welsh kindness acts, or indeed making 1,000 Welsh cakes. The Grand Week in Wales will bring people together right across our nation, whilst raising money for some amazing charities and social enterprises. It launches next week, Llywydd, on 19 June, and I want to wish everyone taking part across Cymru the very best of luck, and I urge you all as Members to find out more and consider taking part in one of those 1,000-themed challenges.

This week we mark the death of Princess Gwenllian. She was born in 1282, a very important year in the history of Wales. When she was only a few months old, her father, Llywelyn ap Gruffudd, the last Prince of Wales, was killed by the army of Edward I of England. Her mother, Eleanor de Montfort, had died soon after Gwenllian was born. She was captured as a young baby from her home in Arfon, and she spent the rest of her life in a nunnery in Sempringham in England, until her death at the age of 54.

Did she know who she was? We don't really know. She was exiled far from her nation and her family so she wouldn't inspire revolt by the Welsh. Thanks to the Princess Gwenllian Society for keeping her name alive. Thanks to my parents for giving me her name. In 2009, Carnedd Uchaf in Eryri was renamed 'Carnedd Gwenllian'. The town of Bethesda is nearby, and last weekend a very special festival was held in the Ogwen valley to remember Princess Gwenllian, organised by Partneriaeth Ogwen.

Roger Griffin, the poet, has summarised this very sad story, but with a note of hope at the end:

'You were our last, but not our lost princess. / Your footprints on our rocky path remain. / Survival is our nation's special skill, / And time has merely honed our stubborn pride.'

This week is Men's Health Week, and it's an international event that takes place every year in June. The goal of Men's Health Week is to encourage men to take proactive steps to improving their physical and mental well-being. During Men's Health Week, various organisations, health professionals and community groups organise events, workshops and health screenings—an educational programme specifically targeted towards men. These activities aim to provide information and resources on topics such as prevention, exercise, nutrition, mental health, and the important of getting regular check-ups and screenings. Men's Health Week serves as a reminder for men to prioritise their health and well-being, to engage in a healthy lifestyle, and to seek timely medical advice when needed. It also encourages an open discussion about men's health issues, which may often be overlooked or stigmatised. By promoting awareness, Men's Health Week aims to improve the overall health outcomes for men and encourage them to lead a healthier and happier life. Diolch.

Thank you very much, everyone.

Item 5 this afternoon is a Member debate under Standing Order 11.21, the Warm This Winter campaign. I call on Hefin David to move the motion.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. As I look up through the funnel at the sky, I can see the sky is blue, and this is possibly one of the warmest days, if not the warmest day, of the year. You might think it's an unusual time to start thinking about winter, but, actually, this is absolutely the right time to start thinking about winter and how we protect our most vulnerable and lowest income households as we approach, with climate change, what could be a cold and could be a wet winter.

Therefore, I'm very pleased to be able to bring this debate forward today, and I want to say a 'thank you', of course, to co-submitters Jack Sargeant and Jane Dodds, who will have things to say in this debate, and also everyone else who has signed up to it. But also I think I should mention someone much missed from this Chamber, who is Bethan Sayed. I'm sure she's missed by Plaid Cymru—she's certainly missed by us. [Interruption.] Yes, you've got to nod. You've got to nod. Bethan has demonstrated the maxim that Tony Benn first came up with that, by leaving Parliament, you have more time for politics. And that's certainly the case with her. She's helped us develop this motion. She's helped us identify some of the key areas of campaigning through her work with Climate Cymru and, across the UK, the Warm This Winter campaign, which is an excellent campaign, which is designed to effect change in the UK, but also, through Climate Cymru, here in Wales.

And what I'm going to do today is identify some of the things we'd like to see Welsh Government doing, some of the things they've done well so far and maybe have started to discontinue and we'd like to see a bit more next year, and also some of the things the UK Government is doing. But Conservatives can rest easy—I'm not going to go on the attack; I'm not going to do an Alun Davies and upset you. My plan is certainly to try and find my—[Interruption.] Shh. My plan is certainly to try and find some ways of finding cross-party agreement on this and, hopefully, have full support across this Chamber for the motion. I understand Welsh Government will be supporting the motion. I've got something to say about that in a minute.

So, we are living through a climate crisis, a cost-of-living crisis and an environmental crisis. All of these things together are combining towards hurting those people who are most vulnerable in our communities. But, of course, they are combined, they are connected, these issues, and I think there is certainly a way, through some of the recommendations we'll have today, of addressing these issues.

So, the Warm This Winter campaign across the UK calls for energy support to help people struggling with energy bills, a coherent plan to end gas and oil dependency and the upscaling of renewable projects. Here in Wales, Climate Cymru have adapted the Warm This Winter campaign to ask the Welsh Government to support vulnerable people in Wales with home-efficiency grants and investment in community renewables. What I wanted to do was just look at what the Welsh Government have done so far first of all, and also raise some concerns about that, for the future, and then look at what we want to see.

So, so far, we've seen a £150 cost-of-living payment from the Welsh Government. Caerphilly council distributed that in my constituency, and they also added to it. We've seen a £200 Welsh fuel support scheme. We've seen additional funding to the discretionary assistance fund, a £4 million national fuel voucher scheme and a £1 million warm banks fund. These were all helpful things last winter that made a difference for the people in our communities. We would like to see a winter 2023 winter fuel campaign similar to the one that was run in 2022. So far, we haven't heard from Welsh Government as to whether this will happen. With the Minister—. I think the Minister's on the screen. I'd like to say it would be helpful to know whether Welsh Government intend to run either a similar campaign or something very similar to it.

What next from Welsh Government? Well, we'd like to credit the Welsh Government for the Nest scheme. I think it has made a difference in guiding the most vulnerable people to the activities that they can undertake and places they can go to gain support. But we would like the Welsh Government to adjust that scheme for people on the lowest incomes in order to help them insulate their homes. There is a route to that. I think you need some support from the UK Government too to do it, but there is certainly the opportunity to extend that scheme.

We want the Welsh Government to support the living wage campaign and to think about, particularly, that promise we made for those workers in social care, that their wages—. The lower they go, the harder that service is to deliver. And we'd like to think about the ability to go beyond the living wage, even, for social care workers. We'd like to give all unpaid carers cost-of-living financial support, not just those in receipt of carers allowance—my little daughter is five years old, and she's a carer for her older sister; there are many forms of caring that go on in the communities, and I think we need to think about that—and also bring together the additional support that exists, the free school meals, council tax reduction schemes and other schemes the Welsh Government deliver, under one umbrella, one cohesive system, so that it's easy for people to understand and to access. And of course we would like to see, further down the line, a more cohesive benefits system, but this is a step towards that that the Welsh Government can introduce.

And I know what Jack Sargeant is going to talk about in his speech—it's going to be prepayment meters. Is that right, Jack? I think it is. Give me a nod if it is; it is. And I think prepayment meters, and the forced introduction of prepayment meters in this country, is an evil, and I think Jack Sargeant is going to tell us why that's the case, and he's going to tell us later what can be done about it.

We also want the Welsh Government to lobby the UK Government to make up for the shortfall that low and vulnerable households will have as a result of inflation and the increasing difficulties that the economy is having. And again, I'm not going to get into a party political battering of the Conservatives. What I'd say to the Conservatives is: join the Welsh Government in calling for the UK Government to fill the gaps in the social security system that is being created by this out-of-control inflation that we are seeing at this point in time. Work together, get the UK Government to fill in those gaps; it can happen, and it can be done.

We'd also—and this is, of course, Labour Party policy, but I would imagine Plaid Cymru would support it as well—want to impose a genuine windfall tax on energy companies, and also scrap incentives to scale up the extraction of fossil fuels. I think that is something that we would support; at least two thirds of this Chamber, I think, would support that.

What can the UK Government do to help the Welsh Government deliver secure homes and insulated homes? Well, the devolved budget can be increased to enable delivery of a scaled up home insulation programme. And the fact is that, as you deliver home insulation in this country, it delivers savings in the medium term back to the Treasury. This is an invest-to-save activity that the UK Government could be engaging in, but isn't, and we feel that that could happen. We could see a rapid scale-up also of low-cost renewables.

And finally, now, this is a live one, the next one: Warm Homes. I've been in touch with Welsh Government special advisers, and I'm told we're expecting a Warm Homes statement from the Welsh Government today. So, I'd say to the Minister: perhaps she could make that statement as part of her response to this debate—it would be really helpful. I've asked Alex in my office to send me a message should the Warm Homes statement be released. Is it out?

No. I'm waiting for it.

We're waiting for it. Sioned's waiting for it as well. So, we're waiting with bated breath, Minister, for the Warm Homes statement. If you've got it, let us have it—let's do it now. What would we like to see in that statement? We'd like to see an ambitious Warm Homes programme for Wales, at scale and pace. This should target the most impacted households first, prioritise improving the fabric of the house with energy-efficient measures, and combine a street-by-street approach and on-demand support for vulnerable households wherever they are. That is what we're asking for in the Warm Homes scheme; we really are looking forward to that statement and what is coming next.

And I just wanted to say something about Arbed as well, which is now of course discontinued. Caerphilly council managed the investment in Lansbury Park in my constituency, which saw a transformation of many homes on the estate. But not every home was covered; some felt the scheme didn't go far enough for some of the homes on the estate. And I'd like to ask the Welsh Government what lessons can be learned from the delivery of that scheme, because we knew that there were opportunities to link some of the Arbed work into existing homes, and we were told that it wasn't cost-effective to do so as the programme then existed. So, if Warm Homes is coming forward, can that perhaps fill some of the gaps that Arbed didn't?

As with all these debates, individual Member's debates, this is for the Chamber—this is for people in this Chamber, Members in this Chamber, to tell us what's happening in their communities and what they would like to see in terms of policy. I'm really looking forward to hearing those responses. I really hope that Conservatives will take part in the debate—that would be really helpful to us all. I know Plaid Cymru are intending to take part, and Labour, and Liberal Democrats. And I'd like to hear collectively what more we can do, collectively what more we can do, to make this winter warmer for those people who are most vulnerable and are on the lowest incomes in our society. So, right now, it's over to you.

I have many speakers, and well over the limit. I'll try and call everyone, but you can help me by keeping to your time, please. Jane Dodds.

Diolch yn fawr, Dirprwy Lywydd. There's throwing down the gauntlet there, so I will do my best to keep within my time.

Every winter, people die in Wales due to cold homes. Rural communities, such as my own region of Mid and West Wales, suffer from fuel and energy poverty far above the national average. The problems of last year, as we've heard, have not gone away, and I would like to thank Hefin for bringing this forward at this point. It is critical that we plan for winter from now on. We cannot leave people waiting and wanting, and wanting to know what's happening around having warm homes. Rising costs this winter may mean that many of all of our residents are forced to make the difficult decision between heating and eating.

Wales has the oldest housing stock in the United Kingdom, and the lowest proportion of dwellings in the country with an energy performance certificate rating of C and above. Welsh housing is some of the least energy efficient in Europe. According to a committee report last year, the Warm Homes programme failed to match Wales's level of need, and undermined its own goals due to its poor design and delivery. As I've previously highlighted in the Siambr, at the current rate, the Nest programme would take 134 years to insulate every fuel-poor home. 

The Warm This Winter campaign is calling for emergency support for vulnerable households, whether that be by automatically referring the needy to energy-efficient schemes, or through expanding financial support to cover those who have fallen through the cracks. We cannot wait. This Government must act now.

Beyond immediate relief, we in Wales need solutions at scale and at pace, to end fuel poverty and create a more energy-secure renewable future. The Welsh Government must do more to support community renewable projects, end our reliance upon expensive fossil fuels, and help upskill our workforce to a green transition. That's why I've been calling, and others have been as well, to make sure that we have a 'bonanza tax', as I call it, on energy executive bonuses, or by campaigning for a transition to a universal basic income. We must stop Aberpergwm coal mine right now, and ensure that there is action to close Ffos-y-fran, as is supposed to be happening on 28 July.

By helping our most impacted houses today, and by investing in a renewable tomorrow, Wales can help make fuel poverty a thing of the past. On top of what we've heard already from Hefin, and the idea of this umbrella approach to helping people understand what's available, I just want to talk very quickly about debt bonfires. Debt bonfires was a recommendation in the Equality and Social Justice Committee's report, and it makes it clear that this is one tool that can help those households that are suffering under burdensome debts, but will also take away the stress and the mental health things that go with it as well. 

I look forward to the debate and the discussion, and I thank, once again, Hefin, for bringing this forward. Diolch yn fawr iawn, Dirprwy Lywydd.

I'm very pleased to be able to co-submit this motion of Hefin David's today, alongside Jane Dodds as well. It was a pleasure to welcome Climate Cymru and the Warm This Winter campaign to the Senedd a few weeks ago, for Members to be able to sign up and pledge to their campaign. And if Members haven't done so yet, then I urge them to consider doing just that. And Hefin David is absolutely right. The sun is beating down outside today; it's sweltering out there. But last winter, we should not forget how long and how miserable and how difficult it was for so many. And so many of those are already worried about how they will manage next winter. And I completely support the motion in front of us today, and the calls for emergency support for our most vulnerable.

Deputy Presiding Officer, Hefin David hasn't read my mind too cleverly; I am going to talk about prepayment meters, but I'm not going to ask him for the lottery numbers. It should be no surprise that I'm going to talk about the issues of vulnerable individuals and families, and how they were being treated last winter by energy suppliers. The prepayment meter scandal that developed last year demonstrated the sheer failings of the UK Government, Ofgem and the suppliers—these suppliers who are meant to protect vulnerable consumers and ensure that their energy is not disconnected. But that's not what we saw. We saw thousands of court warrants passed at once for forced installation, without checks being done on whether the individual was vulnerable or not and how that would impact them. We saw the sickening footage, didn't we, in The Times, of agents contracted by British Gas forcing prepayment meters onto extremely vulnerable customers. And I'm aware of other examples, from a survey my office has done, where people who need constant electricity for their medical devices for them to survive being forcibly switched with the prospect of having their energy cut off. 

The whole experience reinforced to me just how broken our energy market is and how it is completely organised to protect the interest of the suppliers, their shareholders and their executives. Deputy Presiding Officer, as Chair, I recently had the chance to grill some of these top executives from the most common energy suppliers in the UK, when they came to give evidence to the Petitions Committee. And I must say that I was (a) frustrated, (b) annoyed at times with their responses, and I've even found myself, with the agreement of the committee—and I see some members of the committee here in front of me—as Chair, writing to one executive to suggest to him that it was not appropriate for him to come to a committee of the Welsh Parliament and suggest that if people didn't have prepayment meters they would stop paying their energy bills and they would go on holiday. I'm waiting for the response from the executive. I would be grateful for his clarification and evidence on that matter, because—.  

Will you take an intervention?

Of course. 

Would you be willing to tell us who that was, what company that was? Or, I understand if you wouldn't like to. 

I'm very happy to name the individual. The individual was Andrew Ward, from Scottish Power. It's on the public record; it's there for those to see on Senedd.tv, if they need to. My letter will be public as well, and so will his response to the committee. Because it's the view of people like that, and the sort of view of individuals like that, who are really struggling to support the most vulnerable people, isn't it? And that's the problem that we're here to discuss, about supporting the most vulnerable, living and surviving in an energy crisis that has no place in society at all, and what Hefin David rightly said towards the end of his contribution, that we have a collective responsibility to do something about.

I am grateful to the Minister for her leadership on this very matter. I'd be grateful if she, once again, could reaffirm the Welsh Government's position on banning the forced installation of prepayment meters.

This debate, Dirprwy Lywydd—and I see time is winding up slowly—this debate is part of the solution needed to protect the residents of Cymru next winter. I do, again, want to thank Hefin David and Members who have supported this motion. I hope the whole Senedd can come together in agreement with this motion. It is a very important one. I also want to thank Bethan Sayed and Climate Cymru for everything they've done to support vulnerable residents. And, as I said at the start, if Members haven't signed the pledge, then they should do. Diolch.

I'd like to thank Hefin for bringing forward this Member's debate and also Bethan Sayed for all her work—of course, our former colleague, here on the Plaid Cymru benches. And I'm glad to be one of the motion's supporters, and Plaid Cymru wholeheartedly supports the motion, as it encompasses the actions, as has been said, that are needed now during the warmth of summer to help households in Wales during what will be an upcoming cold and difficult winter. Because although our energy bills may be slightly less high at the moment, as the sun dries our clothes and warms our houses, they're still not normal. This really needs to be underlined: 80 per cent higher than at the start of the energy crisis, and still completely unaffordable for far too many families.

From July, when the Ofgem price cap comes into effect, the typical annual energy bill will be £2,074. That means there will be 6.6 million households in fuel poverty across the UK. That's up from 4.5 million in October 2021. And we know, from many reports that have been published so far this year, that there is a great concern that next winter will be difficult—even, in some cases, more difficult than the last. As the motion states, we're facing multiple crises, and, as with so many crises, it's the poorest in our communities and those that have intersecting inequalities that feel the impact the most. 

Barnardo's Cymru stated in their recent report that the most common concern for households in Wales is meeting heating and food costs due to rising prices. Targeted support must be provided to get these families through this deeply difficult winter ahead. Figures from Citizens Advice Cymru show us people are already struggling with debt, and energy debt advice is the most common issue they're dealing with. We've heard report after report quoted in debates in this Chamber about that need for better targeting, co-ordination and delivery of the support that is available.

The Senedd supported my call for a Bill to ensure that every £1 of Welsh support goes to the right pocket at the right time, as easily and quickly as possible. Support must be effective, and its delivery streamlined, and yet we still don't have that Welsh benefits system in place that Plaid Cymru has long advocated for, with a statutory element to local authority delivery of these support payments. This could ensure the support schemes that must be instituted next winter are made even more efficient, getting that support to the people who need it. We need to learn the lessons of last winter to know how much support is needed and where. So, what evaluation has been done, Minister, of, for example, the Welsh fuel support programme? What new proposals does the Government have to help families through this year's hard winter? And what progress has been made to ensure the way we do that is improved?

The Warm Homes programme encapsulates the aims of the Warm This Winter Wales campaign like no other single measure, in my opinion, and is therefore absolutely key to this debate. It's deeply and truly concerning that the next iteration of the programme has been so delayed. Actually, it's more than concerning; I think it's scandalous, and I think it's irresponsible.

We on the Equality and Social Justice Committee received the same answer for over a year to the questions we raised in our work regarding the new proposals, although the consultation on those new proposals closed in April 2022. I'd like to share an example of how worrying the Government's response has been on this: when we received unclear answers on the Government's plans from the Minister for Social Justice during a scrutiny session on debt and the cost of living, we wrote to her to ask for more clarity on proposals and timescales, and, in response, we were sent the answer from the Minister for Climate Change to a written question from me. We had to write again before we were given the answer many of us have now been receiving for months, which didn't shed much light.

Dirprwy Lywydd, this is absolutely urgent work that meets a desperate need to improve the energy efficiency of fuel-poor homes in Wales, to make them warmer, greener, healthier places to live, with energy bills that are permanently lower. And yet it seems this has not been given the focus it deserves. So, I hope, in response to the debate, we will receive the answer, that that e-mail pops into our inboxes, that the fuel-poor households of Wales get a clear answer, the answer they deserve, the answer that will give us faith that the Government has a coherent and deliverable plan, and that the timetable for this work is beyond vague indications.

So, Minister, what is the timeline for the new iteration of the Warm Homes programme? When will it be operational? Not what month, not 'by the winter', or 'the end of the winter' answers, please, which could actually mean it's the beginning of next spring. Can you tell us more about any change in eligibility criteria? What will be the threshold of any cap on support? And, crucially, how are you ensuring that this work will not slip any further? Diolch.

More than 80 per cent of fuel-poor households in Wales live in inefficient homes, higher than in any other UK nation, highlighting National Energy Action Cymru's concerns that current schemes are insufficient to deal with the scale of fuel poverty in Wales, and their call for guaranteed support for the worst first. There is an urgent need to upgrade the energy efficiency of fuel-poor homes in Wales, including owner-occupied and private rented sector homes, to make them much warmer, greener, healthier places to live, with energy bills that are permanently low.

In a letter in response to me as chair of the cross-party group on fuel poverty and energy efficiency in April, the Minister for Climate Change stated that she expects to procure a new demand-led scheme to replace Nest by the end of the calendar year, adding this will enable the new scheme to be awarded late autumn and mobilised over the winter, with delivery expected from late winter. The cross-party group believes it is imperative that the Welsh Government now implement the new Warm Homes programme with urgency, ensuring that the replacement demand-led scheme for NEST is operational this winter with eligibility and scale confirmed.

The Senedd’s Equality and Social Justice Committee report on fuel poverty and the Warm Homes programme makes several welcome recommendations regarding the next iteration of the Warm Homes programme, including for the Welsh Government to ensure the programme embeds the fabric and worst-first approach to retrofitting, targeting the poorest households in the least efficient homes; is bigger in scale, with smarter, less restrictive eligibility criteria, and greener in its interventions; looks to cover the cost of enabling works; removes the single application cap to help accommodate multiple measures and designs a more intelligent means of limiting costs; and is backed by a robust data collection, monitoring and evaluation framework with a fit-for-purpose quality assurance regime. This remains the best lasting way of tackling fuel poverty, reducing the amount of energy fuel-poor households need to use to heat their homes in the first place and providing a permanent reduction in energy bills.

In the years to come, the next scheme and programme will need to be backed by sufficient increased funding if the Welsh Government is to meet its 2035 fuel poverty targets and contribute to its efforts to reach net zero. And if, as we heard from Hefin David, the Welsh Government is issuing a policy statement on its Warm Homes programme today, it is imperative that the scheme is operational as soon as possible. Further important detail, including eligibility and scale, must be confirmed.

Unprecedented steps were taken by the UK Government to support people with the cost of living following Russia’s illegal invasion of Ukraine and its massive impacts on global food and fuel prices and the pressures on the economy caused by the pandemic. Amongst other things, this enabled the Welsh Government to double the winter fuel support scheme payment to £200 for eligible households to help with fuel prices.

Speaking here as Chair of the cross-party group on fuel poverty and energy efficiency last year, I called for the scheme’s eligibility criteria to be extended and was grateful when the Minister subsequently did this. However, questioning the Social Justice Minister here in January, and again last month following the Welsh Government’s announcement that it was not continuing the winter fuel scheme beyond 2022-23, I asked her whether this would be scrapped entirely, replaced by the original £100 payment or replaced by something else. I’d be grateful if the Minister could answer this now.

Further questioning her here last month, I noted her confirmation to my office that, although the Welsh Government had made up to £90 million available for payments to eligible low-income households under the 2022-23 winter fuel support scheme, and estimated that approximately 427,000 households will be eligible, less than £65 million had been spent by 28 February this year when applications closed, with local authorities across Wales reporting that just 316,000 households had applied and that only 341,468 had received a payment. I asked the Minister whether this underspend would therefore be carried forward, and if not, why not. However, it was not confirmed if this underspend will be carried forward to help the most vulnerable in fuel poverty. Again, I would be grateful if the Minister could answer this now. 

Lessons also need to be learnt on how benefit take-up is maximised in the future. As the Bevan Foundation reiterated in April, the Welsh Government should establish a coherent and integrated Welsh benefits system for all the means-tested benefits it is responsible for.

Mark, conclude now please.

We will be supporting this motion.

The sun is indeed beating down, but it really isn't that hot. I'm absolutely shocked that National Grid has recommissioned a coal-fired power station in order to meet demand to enable people to run air conditioning. You couldn't make it up, could you? It's not 40 degrees, but it will be if we don't change our ways. National Grid absolutely hasn't got it, and nor indeed has the population of the UK, because people are not explaining this to them. And if we don't have better-insulated houses, we're going to simply go on like this. It's total madness, and it's as if we didn't have a climate emergency.

We have 600,000 households living in fuel-poor homes who are absolutely between a rock and a hard place: they don't have the money to insulate their homes and they don't have the option to move to renewable energy. A majority of them are living in private rented homes. If that's what people who own their own home want to do, that's their problem, but our problem is those who are living in private rented housing who have no options, because if they start kicking up a row with their landlord, they'll just be kicked out. We're bottom of the European league table, and Wales has the coldest of all the homes that we have across our nations and regions.

It's over a year since the Equality and Social Justice Committee's report on fuel poverty, and we still don't have a refreshed Warm Homes programme. This is really, really serious. Because it simply isn't there to address the criticism of the previous programme, which was identified in detail by Audit Wales in November 2021, and here we are, being told we won't even have one by November 2023. As Jane Dodds has pointed out, it would take 134 years to rectify the insulation of people's homes. So I am really fearful for next winter, because we won't even have the additional support that was given to households by either the UK Government or the Welsh Government. It is really going to be a disaster. So, we really do have to look at solutions—I agree with you, Hefin David, and thank you very much for organising this debate.

I was looking up a report that I was involved in in the fourth Senedd with some of my colleagues, including John Griffiths and Julie Morgan, as well as Llyr Huws Gruffydd. It was published in March 2016. We needed 'A Smarter Energy Future for Wales', and our recommendations were that we aim to meet all of our energy needs from renewable sources, in the context of the need to reduce carbon emissions by, at that time, 80 per cent by 2050, and we need to set a target date for achieving this.

When you look at what we've actually achieved, it is pretty pathetic. That is the alternative that people need to be offered: you don't need to have the expensive gas and electricity that is determined by the magic price of the gas that day, which is just a guarantee for the energy companies who just want to go on doing the same old same old that's causing all the problems.

The other thing that we recommended was that we urgently need to revise the building regulations to ensure that all new houses are built to 'near zero' energy standards. If Lord Deben can be calling for a levy on all house builders who build more than 100 homes to reimburse all these homeowners who've just been dumped on, having to retrofit their homes because they'd been so inadequately built, surely the Welsh Labour Government can come up with something as fierce as that.

And equally, I'm just looking at what Ukraine has achieved since Russia invaded in February last year: they built enough renewable energy generation to power 200,000 homes 60 miles from the front line, generating 114 MW of electricity. England produced 1 MW of electricity with two offshore wind turbines. And Wales, which has—I've got a list of all the publicly owned energy programmes, whether they're community or individual households, local authorities, other public sector—

You need to conclude now, Jenny, please.

The total is 581 MW for all these organisations throughout all the years that we've ever done this. We absolutely need to have an ambitious renewable energy programme, and it's an emergency; not a nice-to-have—an emergency.

I'd also like to thank Hefin for staging this debate, and to Climate Cymru and Bethan Sayed for their work with this campaign. It is so very important. Many Members have already mentioned the cost-of-living crisis, and as we've heard, it is a crisis—the fact that simply staying alive now for so many people is a critical matter. And as we've already heard, it's not a matter of keeping warm for the coming winter alone. The campaign is focused on the need to find more sustainable solutions to tackle the climate and nature emergencies that we've heard so much about, to help people who are vulnerable now, but also to assist future generations.

Because these crises overlap. There's a social justice driver here in helping people who are struggling now, and in preventing climate catastrophe from condemning future generations to a life of cold, misery and darkness. This campaign is calling for significant radical increase in investment in renewables like solar and wind energy, focusing on empowering community schemes and protecting our natural world. Now, I join them—and I certainly, again, am very grateful that this debate is happening—in calling on the Welsh Government to redouble efforts to set up Ynni Cymru, and to explore what further devolved powers are necessary so that Wales can benefit from our natural resources. We are a country that is so rich in those resources, but we are at present locked out of benefiting from their potential. Devolving further powers over water and over the Crown Estate are two of the major changes that need to be seen urgently. 

And again, from a social justice perspective, it's of utmost importance that we support workers who are currently working in carbon-heavy industries so that they can gain new skills. We cannot stand by and allow another generation of workers in Wales to be disempowered by large-scale changes to their industry. The lessons from Thatcherism are still being felt, so this is a revolution, a change, a radical shift in how we sustain our lives, and that needs to happen with the people by empowering people, not by taking things away from people. 

Will you take an intervention? 

Certainly. 

You're talking there about moving workers from carbon-heavy industries to green industries, and we've suggested a transitional universal basic income would be one way of doing that. I don't know if you'd agree with that approach. Diolch yn fawr iawn.