Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru

I call Members to order.

Before we move to questions, I would like to inform the Assembly, or the Senedd, that, in accordance with Standing Order 26.75, the Senedd and Elections (Wales) Bill was given Royal Assent today. 

And our first item is questions to the Minister for Education, and the first question is from Suzy Davies.

Local authorities are responsible for providing suitable provision for all learners, including those with special educational needs, and funding is allocated to local authorities via the revenue support grant. I have also made available £20 million to support the wider ALN transformation programme. 

Thank you for that answer, and, of course, to be fair, in committee last week, you spoke to us about that pot of funding for helping local authorities and educators prepare for the requirements of the additional learning needs Act. And in the draft budget, you've committed £9 million to two other areas of expenditure, including helping councils deal with the present situation on providing additional learning needs support. And, yet, we do know that, as a result of the UK Government's spending round, the consequential to the Welsh block from its budget allocation to special educational needs and additional learning needs is £35 million. So, I'm not talking about the £700 million headlined by the Secretary of State for Education, which we'll all watch out for, but the £35 million from the spending round. You prioritise your spending, I do know that, but I can't believe that our need for investment in SEN and ALN is so much less than in England. Why haven't you spent £35 million on SEN and ALN?

Well, as I said to the Member in answering her initial question, the vast majority of school costs are met out of the revenue support grant. The Member will be aware that the Government has been able to give a significant increase to local authorities this year. The addition to the local government settlement and other new funding for schools and social care totals £220 million for 2020-21, and this is more than we received in the spending round in relation to additional schools and social care funding from England. The extra funding for additional learning needs in England is included in the overall school increases, so we have been able to ensure additional money for the RSG. I'm aware of specific pressures within the ALN community, and that's why we will complement the increase in the RSG with an additional £8 million from my own budget and in excess of £1 million to support specialist placements for the children with the most profound needs for post-16 study. 

Minister, I appreciate very much the extra money you've put in. I have a constituent who has got a child who needs that type of support, but unfortunately is not getting it because the diagnosis has not been identified yet. But I also appreciate the £20 million you're giving to the ALN preparations for the Bill being enacted in 2021. Local authorities, therefore, will look very carefully at the additional money, to deliver on the expected increase in requirements that they'll have to meet as a consequence of those changes. Now, as I said, I have a constituent whose child, probably in 18 months' time, would actually get the support, because the requirements are changing, from not just a diagnosis to actually the needs of a child. As a consequence, they will have that support. But councils need money to deliver it. Will you be looking to increase the funding to local authorities in future budgets to ensure that—when this change comes in, when there's an increase, and there is going to be an increase in demand—that increase will be met and those children will get the support they need?

Thank you, David, for that question. There are two very important points here. Firstly, my expectation is that every single local education authority in Wales meets the needs of children under current legislation, and there should be no excuse for those needs not being met in anticipation of the introduction of the new ALN Bill. There are protections and rights for those children now, and local authorities should be meeting them. Although, I do have to say, expenditure on SEN in schools by local authorities for this current financial year is budgeted to be in the region of £405 million, which is a 6.1 per cent increase on the year before. So, local authorities are investing in the education of these children.

With regard to the introduction of the Act, you'll be aware that, as I said in answer to Suzy Davies, £20 million has been provided to support that implementation, specifically on the professional learning needs of staff and local education authorities to ensure that that legislation is a success. There will be further financial information available to Members when we publish the statutory code that will underpin that legislation later this year.

The Minister was kind enough to spend some time yesterday in my constituency meeting with ALN teachers, and I was very grateful to the Minister for both the time she spent talking with those people but also the conversation that took place, which I thought was beneficial for everybody. The teachers there, Minister, were very clear that, in order to deliver the vision, which I think is shared on all sides of this Chamber, they need the resources, the time and the support to be able to get these things right.

Can you give us an undertaking today, Minister, that you will seek to put together this package? Because the legislation was, of course, a part of a transformation programme and not the totality of it. And in delivering the code, when you're able to do so, we will be transforming the experience of education for children and young people with those additional learning needs. 

Firstly, can I thank the Member for facilitating that meeting yesterday, and for the efforts of the teachers that I did meet yesterday for the work that they do, day in, day out, in our schools, and the individual who actually looks to co-ordinate the approaches to ALN across the region? It was indeed useful to me to receive their feedback. They were very loud and clear that they do not need any further training on the elements of the new legislation, but now need some training in the practical day-to-day responsibilities of doing that job.

I was also very interested to hear the different approaches as to the status of additional learning needs co-ordinators in school management structures, some of them feeling perhaps that not due weight is given by senior management teams to the needs of that particular role. So, there were very useful discussions, which I will pursue with my officials and will feed back to the Member so that he can feed back to those members of staff who I was very grateful to meet yesterday. 

Over the summer and autumn, we piloted a number of approaches to tackling the issue of holiday hunger, including working with play and community-based settings across Wales through our playworks pilot. The evaluation findings will inform thinking about wider provision next year.

I'm really pleased to say that we are carrying out this scheme, and it is helping children from low-income families, but I'm sure people would share my distress that hundreds of families—both those in work and receiving benefits, and those relying solely on benefit incomes—feel that they have to depend on such schemes to feed their children during school holidays. It is a mark of 10 years of austerity, and the changes to benefits and entitlements from the Tory Government that have hit families with very little income the hardest. So, we recognise also that must be immensely stressful for the parents and the families to find themselves in these positions of need.

You have said that you are going to evaluate, moving forward, and my question to you, Minister, is: once you have that evaluation and are moving forward with that pilot, is it your intention then to widen the access to those who aren't currently in the pilot and to continue access for those who are?

Well, Joyce, the reasons why families and children suffer from holiday hunger are ones that are, in many cases, often beyond our control. But I think it is absolutely right that the Welsh Government looks to take action to alleviate the consequences of decisions that are taken elsewhere. In total, the Holiday Hunger Playworks pilot had 92 open-access-play sites and six out-of-school sites. They delivered some 13,000 meals, which just shows you the scale of that particular programme.

It is important that we remember that that is just one part of our attempts to tackle and to alleviate the problem of holiday hunger. It sits alongside our traditional school holiday enrichment programme; our food and fun programme that is delivered via a school setting. And I am pleased to say that, in the new financial year, we have earmarked £1 million funding for the playworks pilots, and we will be increasing the Welsh Government's budget for the food and fun SHEP to £2.7 million. That will allow us to provide 100 per cent of the cost of that programme, which in past years has been partly funded by Welsh Government and partly funded by local authorities. But we will be able to expand that programme and we believe that, potentially, it will reach some 7,600 children this summer.

I welcome this pilot and I welcome the information that you've just given us that more children are likely to benefit from this. I recognise also that budgets are tight and, with the Tories in power in Westminster, there's little prospect of our situation improving for some years.

So, I wonder what consideration you've given to tapping into the vast excess of food that's generated by supermarkets on a daily basis. Could using that excess make this scheme cheaper? My office has been collecting and distributing food from a small number of supermarkets. It's perfectly good produce and it would have been destined for the bin, mainly due to its short shelf life. We don't have any qualification—there's no benefits eligibility to accessing this food—and as a result we've had more than 6,000 visits from people for free food, just over the last six months. So, can you consider utilising the waste from supermarkets to enable more children to be fed during school holiday times?

Thank you, Leanne, for that, and thank you for your own personal efforts. It is mirrored by efforts by politicians who sit in this Chamber, and outside this Chamber, in a range of political parties who look to take practical action in this regard. We don't actually run those programmes. We make the finance available for our partners in local government and our third sector organisations to be able to, on the ground, deliver.

But I'm more than happy for officials to ask our partners whether they could encourage and look at the proposal that you've just put forward. We're always looking for new partners to help ensure that not just the food on offer but also the range of activities—because that's an important part of the programme as well, the range of activities—on offer are meaningful, exciting and attractive to children. 

So, recently I met with the Welsh Rugby Union. The WRU are looking to do some summer provision and, rather than simply set that up as a solo programme, they are now in discussion with us about how we can put them in touch with local authorities so that they can work alongside our programme, rather than duplicating efforts.

So, we're always looking for new partners to work alongside local authorities and third sector organisations to make those experiences for children meaningful, not just in terms of nourishment, but also activities that can address issues around anti-social behaviour or loneliness and isolation or learning loss during the summer holidays.

Questions now from party spokespeople. The Conservative spokesperson, Suzy Davies.

Diolch, Llywydd. Minister, I have to say I was very pleased when you amended the guidance, to be followed by local authorities primarily, requiring them to take additional steps before they made a decision on closing small, rural schools. And while that didn't capture all small schools, it was a statement of recognition of the place in the community of small, rural schools and their contribution to standards, and of course the negative consequences of having young children being ferried across large distances, and in some cases of course the negative effect on Welsh as a community language.

But small schools are more expensive, per head, to run, and to assist with this you've offered, from the centre, a yearly grant of £2.5 million to be allocated annually from April 2017 to support greater school-to-school working in rural areas. It's an annual grant, but I wonder if you can tell me where I might find it in the draft budget for 2020-21, and what use it's been put to since its introduction.

Can I thank the Member for the recognition of the important role that small schools play in our education system? On coming into office, I made a pledge to reform the school organisation code to include a presumption against closure, and I am very pleased that we have been able to do that. 

The Member is right, we have a small and rural schools grant, which is there to support the education of children in small and rural schools and to ensure that it is as good as it should be. There are some particular challenges to delivering small and rural schools: teachers being asked to teach over a wide range of age groups, for instance, and the ability to differentiate, as well as headteachers who are managing classroom teaching responsibilities as well as managerial responsibilities.

The amount of money available in the new financial year for the small and rural schools grant continues at the same level and will be available. Local authorities bid for that money and they have used it in a variety of ways to support planning, preparation and assessment time for headteachers and the employment of additional support within those schools, or, in one particular case I'm aware of, being able to make sure that that school is part of a wider pedagogical sharing network to ensure that teaching is as good as it could be when, sometimes, schools don't have specific expertise in an individual subject. 

Thank you very much for that answer. Obviously, I'm extremely pleased to hear that it is in the budget somewhere and that the use it's being put to is the use for which it was intended. Although local authorities, as we know, are largely responsible for school funding, schools are undoubtedly affected by decisions you make on the education budget. Over the course of this Assembly, you're making available £36 million to reduce infant class sizes, targeted at those most adversely affected by deprivation, but, within its clear limits, it's open, I think, to quite a lot of schools—many schools. Have you any indication of how many rural schools are in receipt of the money to reduce infant class sizes?

The £36 million that has been made available over the course of this Parliament to support smaller class sizes is made up of both a revenue and a capital element. The Member is right: one of the criteria for a successful application is a high percentage of children who are entitled to free school meals. But, we also support schools where, perhaps, standards are not what they need to be and they need to improve, and we also look at schools where there is a high percentage of children for whom Welsh or English is not their first language. We choose those categories because we know that that's where the money will make a difference.

The bids come in from local authorities. So, the local authorities themselves prioritise which schools they wish to support—they are a variety of schools across all of our local authorities—and I'm happy to provide the Member with a list of every school that has been in receipt of both the revenue and the capital element. 

Thank you for that answer. I understood that the targeting was at areas of deprivation, but it seemed that, in the way that it's been crafted, it was able to have a slightly wider remit than, perhaps, the pupil deprivation grant.

This £36 million, though—you'll have seen it in the press this week—has already prompted some questions about its value for money in terms of its outcomes. You've also heard that schools are worried that maintaining the levels of employment of all of these new staff, and actually populating the new rooms that this £36 million may have bought, may be pretty difficult when this class-size funding commitment comes to an end.

Some of those schools that have used this money will also be eligible for a considerable amount of pupil development grant income, but, of course, not all of them. So, firstly, can you tell me whether you're expecting the extra PDG that you've announced for infant-age children just this week to pick up the cost of this activity from 2020-21, which would soak up any rise in that budget line?

Secondly, what do you say to rural schools that may have made that investment in staff and buildings to reduce infant class sizes, but don't have access to high levels of PDG, which also supports the sustainability of schools in terms of staffing numbers, whose provision of SEN support, which goes back to my first question today, is doubly difficult due to sparsity and therefore, they can't tackle the effects of poverty in the way that they would like and, presumably, in the way that you would like?

Some schools in my region really do quite well through the central education budget, but my rural schools do not. And I can only imagine what this looks like in your own overwhelmingly rural constituency. 

Well, in my own constituency, I'm absolutely delighted that the cutting-class-sizes grant is providing for an additional classroom teacher at Trefonnen primary school in Llandrindod Wells, and it is providing a dedicated Welsh-medium early years centre in the Ystradgynlais and Swansea valley area. So, I'm very delighted, in my own constituency, with the impact that it is making.

But, let's be clear, in this academic year, some 95 extra teachers will be employed as a result of that grant; some 40 additional teaching assistants will be employed as a result of that grant; and, with regard to its sustainability, that grant will exist as long as I am the education Minister and through to the end of this Parliament. As for a future Parliament, I would hope that the evidence that has been received from parents and teachers of how valuable this grant is will inform a future Government of its important continuation.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Bethan Sayed.

Diolch. As far as I'm aware, this is my last session scrutinising before I go on maternity leave, all being well, so whoever's taking over from me, I wish them all the very best. Erasmus is the core of our students' opportunities to study abroad and without it, as we said yesterday, thousands of students would not have the opportunity to have travelled and to have experienced that abroad. It surprises me that the Tories, who claim to be aspirational, would even consider or hint at the possibility of taking us out of Erasmus next year. If the UK Government doesn't participate in the successor programme or complete negotiations on education partnerships quickly enough with the EU, our participation could be compromised and thousands of students, especially from lower income backgrounds, as Lynne Neagle said yesterday, will be denied any of those life chances.

Does it concern you as Minister that, in rejecting the amendment to continue to take part in Erasmus+ successor programmes last week in the House of Commons, and the UK Government seemingly not so sure what they're going to do with the future negotiations in this regard, that this is the UK Parliament—UK Government, sorry—playing ideological politics with the future of higher education? Would it not lead to more uncertainty for universities and colleges here in Wales after years of uncertainty anyway with Brexit hanging over us? 

Presiding Officer, I'm sure I speak on behalf of all of the Chamber in expressing my best wishes for Bethan as she begins a period of maternity leave. If I could offer just a little advice in this regard, don't be in too much of a rush to get back. [Laughter.] And I say that for purely, purely unselfish reasons. Bethan, you are about to embark on the toughest job that you will ever do, and in some ways, coming back to this Chamber will be a rest, I can assure you. [Laughter.] But I just want to wish you and your husband all the best on this wonderful, wonderful journey that you are about to embark on. 

It's so timely that Bethan raises this question this afternoon, because I understand, Presiding Officer, in the gallery above us today are a number of participants from an Erasmus programme—teachers who, as part of that programme, are able to work internationally to develop skills and understanding and to strengthen each other's education system. That valuable work is in danger of being lost if we don't get decisions around continued participation in the Erasmus+ programme right.

As we rehearsed in the Chamber yesterday, there is no reason why leaving the European Union is incompatible with our ongoing continuation as full partners in that particular programme, across the entire range of that programme, which supports educational exchanges for practitioners, for those in higher education, for those in further education, for our schools and for those in our youth clubs and our youth services. Wales has disproportionately benefited and has been highly successful in drawing on those Erasmus+ funds to expand the life opportunities for a whole range of children and young people and professionals, and that, potentially, is at risk.

Now, it is true to say that the vote this week does not preclude us from an ongoing negotiation, and I have used every opportunity that I have had and will continue to have to persuade Chris Skidmore and, in particular, the Treasury, of the real value of that money. And sometimes, politicians and civil servants need to be reminded that we can know the cost of everything and sometimes miss the value of some things, and Erasmus+ is an example of where the value that is appreciated is so much more than the financial sums that are invested.   

Thank you. Just to pick up on your first point about maternity leave, I'm sure that there will be lots of people who are pleased that I won't be rushing back. [Laughter.] 

In terms of worst-case scenarios, I asked the First Minister yesterday, which you were here for, in terms of contingencies that can be made, specifically in terms of the possibility of further education and higher education institutions here working directly with European institutions. And so, can you tell me what discussions you've had with EU partners about doing that? I understand that we're not able to go into specific bilateral agreements between the UK and EU on education exchanges, but I suppose we could be looking at our own relationship building with higher education institutions across Europe, as I'm sure we are already doing, but having to do that in a bit more of a pressurised situation to ensure that an Erasmus+ programme would be able to continue. So, can you just give me an idea about what you're doing in that regard, and what contingency planning is in train?

The Welsh Government and I have a hierarchy of preferences. Our preference is to continue to be able to participate on a UK basis in the full programme of Erasmus+. That is our preferred option, because we believe that there is strength in that brand, it is well understood, and it is aligned to the strategic goals that we would have as a Government. I am aware that the Westminster Government in English counterparts are potentially looking at a UK-wide scheme. That, I believe, is second best as it does not have—as I said—the recognition and the track record of the existing Erasmus scheme. I have had discussions with my Scottish counterpart and representatives of the civil service in Ireland to look at a Celtic scheme if there was no UK scheme available or the English Government was not willing to invest in this particular area. So, we're looking at that as well as having individual institutional conversations where our institutions in Wales are looking to secure partnerships with institutions across Europe. So, as you can see, there's a hierarchy.

My real fear, from discussions that I have had, is that there could well be a replacement scheme on the education side, but I am very, very fearful for FE in particular and youth services in particular and about whether there are any guarantees or any likelihood of a UK Government seeing the value in that. So, I'm less concerned about universities, but I'm very concerned about the wider entirety of the programme. 

Thank you very much for that. That's clear. The issue of Erasmus throws up some other questions in my mind, where we might not agree so much, I think—but I haven't said it yet—related to the wider health of the HE sector. Media reports over the weekend were clear that HE faces some very big challenges. The Vice Chancellor of Cardiff Met said—and I quote—that the talk of the sector was now, 'How big is your deficit?', not if there is a deficit.

I understand that some costs, such as those related to pensions have caused deficits to look larger this year, but it's clear that most institutions are operating in the red and there is also a continuing decline in the number of accepted applicants in Wales and a fall of 17,000 overall applications since 2016. Now, I'm sure you're well aware of the wider economic impact of Welsh universities, and we have rehearsed some of those arguments here over the past few months. It concerns us in Plaid Cymru that half of all Welsh students chose to leave the country to go elsewhere to university. We're not saying that they shouldn't go, but we are concerned that over half decided to go, and we do see that the brain drain from Wales that has happened over decades has not been tackled over previous Governments here in Wales.

So, my question to you, my final question, is: what are you doing differently to ensure that we can turn that around and encourage many more people to stay and to have their education in Wales? And I will say, just to end, it's not about not encouraging people to go elsewhere to study, but we have to acknowledge, for a successful and vibrant HE sector here in Wales, we have to look at how we can retain some of those students here in Wales because that is part and parcel of the issue at the moment.

Well, curriculum, marketing, recruitment and retention of students is a matter for individual institutions and not a matter for the Government. We have delivered, during this Parliament, the fairest, most progressive and sustainable support system, I would argue, anywhere in the United Kingdom, which treats Welsh students very well. But also, I recognise that universities are major employers and vital to our local economy and many of our communities, and that's why we've moved to a more sustainable system of funding and why we will see Higher Education Funding Council for Wales's budget increase in 2020-21 considerably as we deliver on our Diamond reforms. But the courses that individual universities offer and their ability to market and recruit to those courses is rightly a matter for them.

Thank you, Jayne. I'm committed to ensuring that autistic pupils in schools are effectively supported to overcome any barriers to learning that they may have. Our ambitious additional learning needs reforms will completely overhaul the existing system for supporting learners, and will drive improvements and raise awareness of ALN to ensure all learners achieve their full potential.

Thank you for that answer, Minister. There are around 700,000 adults and children on the autism spectrum in the UK, and if you include their families, autism is part of the daily life of 2.8 million people, yet it's still often misunderstood.

I wanted to take this opportunity to highlight the latest measure that is happening in Gwent to raise awareness and to introduce the Minister and the Chamber to Moli, The Cow Who Moo She Was Different. Moli is autistic and her story is a wonderful new addition to primary schools and libraries across the region. The book aims to highlight the importance of embracing difference and how everyone has their own individual strengths. Launched at Newport's Serennu centre, Moli's story was developed by young people with autism and came about after Newport councillor Paul Cockeram was inspired by The Elephant Who Forgot, a book created by parents to raise awareness of dementia. This is the third book of its kind, with another two in the pipeline. The books are funded through ICF. These soft approaches to teaching children about what are often difficult subjects are simple and beautifully insightful. They're proving to be effective in addressing stigma, and I ask that the Minister look closely at these projects and see how these books could be rolled out so that, eventually, Moli's story can be one that all Welsh children would recognise.

Well, thank you, Jayne, and thank you for bringing to the attention of the entire Chamber the availability of that resource, and, hopefully, I can have a closer look at it after questions finish. We are working to improve knowledge and awareness of autism amongst not just children, but also all of our professional groups, including those working in education, health and local authority services, as part of our ALN transformation programme. That's included the publication of a guide for practitioners. That guide details effective interventions for learners with autism in education settings. And we are continuing to roll out and develop our learning with autism scheme, with programmes aimed at early years, primary, secondary and FE. That does include the publication and the working up of bilingual resource packages for all of those settings, so that enables us, as I said, to help raise awareness, and I'm sure the book that you've highlighted and Moli the cow will be a useful addition to those resources that schools need to be able to address these important differences that exist within a classroom.

Minister, sport plays an important part in supporting children with autism and their families. However, children with autism are often misunderstood and can find socialising and communication challenging in their communities and in their surroundings. The lack of autism awareness among other children can therefore lead to autistic people being isolated or bullied. Minister, what guidelines has the Welsh Government issued to ensure that our schools take a proactive approach to raising autism awareness to promote greater understanding and tolerance of autism in our classrooms? Thank you.

As I said in answer to Jayne Bryant, we have a pan-Wales programme of raising the autism awareness of the practitioners that are working with children. That includes, as I said, producing guides and training material for them, as well as producing resources that can be used in schools, and, of course, our new curriculum gives us the opportunity, in a variety of ways, but primarily through our health and well-being area of learning and experience, where we can proactively explore difference of all kinds with our children and ensure that they are understanding, empathetic, respectful and knowledgeable about the very diverse communities that they will be growing in and that they will become, hopefully, an ethical, informed citizen of when they leave our school system.

Student recruitment, as I said earlier, is a matter for individual institutions. However, it is my understanding that universities treat Welsh and English GCSEs equally, although individual courses may have specific entry requirements.

You're right that it's a matter for universities, the detail, but there are important issues of principle here. There's more than one case that's been drawn to my attention. In this specific case, the latest one, a provisional medical student has found out that she won't be accepted on a course because she doesn't have a B grade in English GCSE—she has a C; she has a B in her first language, Welsh. Now, the Welsh Language Commissioner has told us there are a variety of other courses where the entry requirements ask for a C in Welsh or English.

We would ask for an explanation as to why you need a B in English specifically, and why a B in Welsh wouldn't be sufficient.

He makes the point that this is especially true given the need for more primary care workers who have Welsh language skills. The Coleg Cymraeg told me that in their opinion, Welsh and English should be treated equally in terms of this requirement and they'd be conveying that to the university. Do you agree with the principle that the languages should be treated equally in Wales for a course that provides for public services in Wales?

Of course, I believe that the ability to be able to practice medicine bilingually through the medium of both English and Welsh would put someone in very great stead for being an excellent practitioner, but as I said in answer to the question, universities themselves are responsible for setting individual grade requirements for the courses. They do that, often, in a way to ensure that the right students are placed on those courses with the right abilities to be able to be successful and to thrive. That individual case I am happy to look at, but as I said, it is for individual institutions to make a decision on the individual requirements that they require of students to be able to be successful on that course, but the principle of a Welsh first language GCSE or an English GCSE being compatible is one that I agree with and one that we use as a compatible performance measure in the Welsh Government's own evaluation system.

As the higher education admissions guide issued by Qualifications Wales states, the reformed GCSEs in Wales retain the grading scale A* to G. No precise comparison can be made between the current alphabetical grading scale and the revised numerical scale in England. Of course, Wales also has two maths GCSEs, mathematics and numeracy, and England only one, risking the creation of complications and confusion when clearly we need understanding of comparability. If and when, therefore, universities fail to understand how to compare effectively so that equal achievement is recognised equally, what action does the Welsh Government take directly to overcome any misunderstandings or misconceptions in any universities in Wales, England or elsewhere who may be getting it wrong?

The first thing to say, Mark, is that our GCSEs and A-levels and our suite of qualifications are absolutely of the same rigour as those across the border. The decision by the English Government to change their grading arrangements is rightly a matter for them, but Qualifications Wales has been quite clear in their advice that the letter grading system is one that is well understood by universities and employers, and perhaps in terms of educating universities as to qualifications, maybe it is the numbering system that they need additional information on.

However, because there is a divergence in the qualification system and we want to ensure the portability of our qualifications system for our children and young people, for instance, Qualifications Wales has a dedicated employee who works with the higher education sector across the UK to ensure that there is a full understanding of the raft of qualifications that Welsh children sit, their value and their rigour, and I'm grateful for the work that Qualifications Wales do in this regard.

The Reid review recommendations were accepted in principle by the Welsh Government in 2018 and, since that time, I have been taking forward actions in support of these recommendations with Ministers and officials from across the Government.

In the evidence that the Minister gave to the Children, Young People and Education Committee last week, she made a clear budgetary commitment to meeting £15 million of spending towards implementing in particular recommendation 2 of the Reid review. But the Reid review recommendation 2 was an additional £30 million a year to incentivise researchers to win greater funding from business and from outside Wales. I've no doubt that the Minister is committed to meeting in principle the recommendations of the Reid review, but the figure that she has outlined is £15 million short. And what she said in response to questioning was that the Welsh Government is funding this research in a variety of different reviews almost Byzantine in their complexity. The money is out there somewhere, but it's very complex to audit it beyond the £15 million she's committed. Yet, the third recommendation of the Reid review is a single overarching brand for its research and innovation funding to increase visibility and coherence. So, with that in mind, can she provide a more detailed explanation of where the money will come from? And if she can't do that today, will she commit to providing that explanation as quickly as possible and, if possible, make a statement to the Chamber around that, and work with her ministerial colleagues to deliver the coherence that the Reid review has recommended?

The Member is absolutely right, Presiding Officer: we are investing some £15 million in an innovation and engagement fund. That was a fund that was abolished or stopped back in 2014 because of the pressure that was on the Welsh Government budget at that time, and I'm delighted that we've been able to get back into funding that provision. On top of that, we are making allocations to quality research funding to HEFCW in line with the recommendations in both Reid and the Diamond report. But funding for research and innovation is spread across a number of portfolios: mine, the portfolio of Ken Skates, and the portfolio of Vaughan Gething. So, in its totality, the Welsh Government is spending significant amounts of money on research, on innovation across the piece. It can be complex and that's why this work is being undertaken by officials, to be able to have a better understanding of the resources that are available.

But I have to say to the Member, our ability to fund universities in this way is severely under threat because of the lack of clarity under the shared prosperity fund. Much of the resources that have funded the Sêr Cymru programme, the KES programme at Bangor University—these programmes have been funded by money from European structural funds, and the inability to have clarity on that and the inability to be able to have Welsh Government direct that funding is a real threat. And that's why Universities Wales is supporting the Welsh Government in its call for clarity to the Westminster Government on the ability to have the replacement structural funds, and for those funds to be managed here, quite rightly, by this Government, and scrutinised by this Parliament.

Thank you. Carmarthenshire has seen £87 million invested in their school estate through the first wave of the twenty-first century schools and colleges programme. A further £112 million for rebuild and refurbishment of Carmarthenshire’s school estate is proposed for the second wave of the programme, funding of which began in April of last year.

I am grateful to the Minister for that update. The Minister will not be surprised to hear me asking her again about progress on delivering Ysgol Gymraeg Dewi Sant in Llanelli. I was very grateful when, before Christmas, the First Minister undertook to have some cross-Cabinet discussions about the particular issues around planning for that school, and I wonder if the Minister is able to tell me today whether those conversations have taken place and when the parents, the staff, but most importantly of all, the pupils, can expect to hear that building on the new school will start.

Well, as the Member will be aware, the outline business case for the replacement of that particular school was approved in 2017. However, since that time, that proposal has become subject to a wide-ranging discussion around planning issues, which the Member will be aware of. The planning decision branch of the Welsh Government is currently contemplating the request of a call-in, but I have to inform the Member that the request cannot be considered in its full way until Carmarthenshire council prepares its own officer's report and submits this to the committee meeting. Officials are currently awaiting that report, and then will make recommendations to the Minister for Housing and Local Government upon its receipt. Any influence she can bring to that process is very welcome.

Minister, I wonder if you could tell or confirm to us what formal arrangements you have in place for monitoring and evaluating the value for money of the twenty-first century schools programme deliveries, whether it's Carmarthenshire or throughout Wales.

Absolutely. Given the considerable amount of public money that is being spent on the programme, both money from within Welsh Government, but also capital money that local government themselves put into the project, then there is an evaluation process. That helped inform the second wave of funding, and we continue to work with our local authority partners to deliver the best value for money possible. I'm very pleased to say, because of very close management of the fund in the first band, we were able to deliver more projects than had been initially anticipated at the beginning of the project. But close attention to value for money is an important part of the robust process that is overseen independently of the Government when approvals are taken. So, it's a multilayered approach, and recommendations are made to Ministers by an independent panel.

The leading education economist Luke Sibieta is taking forward an analysis of how total spending and spending on different categories varies across schools in specific circumstances in Wales. The terms of reference for this work have been published, and it is intended that this work will be completed before the summer recess.

Thank you for that answer, Minister. We're all aware that the quantum of school funding will remain an issue until we not only reverse the impact of 10 years of Tory cuts to the Welsh budget but can also increase our budgets in real terms and for a sustained period. But in spite of those pressures, I'm proud that the Welsh Government has provided £100 million to deliver improved school standards, introduced the pupil development access grant, increased support for free school meals, supports the holiday hunger scheme and delivers the twenty-first century schools programme. But can you tell me to what extent the 2020-1 Welsh budget settlement will address some of the concerns identified in the Children, Young People and Education Committee's inquiry on school funding in Wales?

Okay. I can say that the decisions made by regional school improvement services, local education authorities and councils will form a part of Luke's investigation and report. One of the issues that was front and centre of the committee's report was not just the total sum of funding but actually the way in which that money allocated reaches the front line and gets into an individual school's budget. And so, as I said, that will form an important part of the report.

With regard to the financial year we're about to go into, having listened very carefully to colleagues in local government and received assurances from them that, if the Welsh Government was to provide local government with a good settlement, they would prioritise schools and social services, I think that puts us in a good place, as well as the additional resources that are available to me, some of which investments you outlined in your supplementary question.

Diolch yn fawr, Llyr. Siarter Iaith is the responsibility of the Minister for International Relations and Welsh Language. I can, however, tell you that the Siarter Iaith framework was part of the consultation on the new curriculum for Wales. The responses will be considered alongside the independent evaluation of the programme, which is currently ongoing.

Well, thank you for that. Obviously, the initial guidance—

I'm sorry—

Sorry—my earpiece. My Welsh isn't that good. [Laughter.] Blwyddyn 2 standard. 

Thank you. The initial guidance provided to schools back in April stated that there would be further practical guidance available by September. Well, we're five months later and, as far as I can see, we still haven't seen those. Now, I accept what you said about ministerial responsibility around this, but the point I want to make is that the Siarter Iaith should be far more prominent and central, in my view, in this attempt to develop the Welsh language through the classroom, although it does promote the use of Welsh outside the classroom, of course. And I do want to hear from the Government that the Siarter Iaith is given that appropriate status so that I can have confidence that it is a priority for you as Government, because this delay in terms of the latest guidance is something that concerns me a great deal. You could alleviate that concern by ensuring, as you have perhaps suggested, that there would be a far stronger reference to the Siarter Iaith in the new curriculum for Wales. But the message I want to hear from you is that it is a central part of the Government's vision in this area and that you have a commitment to ensuring that the Siarter Iaith does grow and develop further.

Well, I hope the Member will be pleased when we publish the final version of the curriculum guidance at the end of this month that we have listened very carefully to the feedback from the initial period with regard to the Siarter. External evaluation is ongoing and, due to the changes to the timetable of the evaluation, the project will now not be completed until the end of February. As a result, new guidance will not be published until the summer term. Schools will be expected to implement the new framework from September 2020, and the Siarter Iaith co-ordinators have been informed of this new timetable. So, it is the delays around the evaluation work that have led to the knock-on effect. But the Siarter is going to be a very important way in which we develop the language.

One of the challenges we sometimes face, especially for children for whom Welsh is not their language at home, is that, too often, language is seen as something that happens within the classroom, rather than a living, breathing part of the entire school community in all its regards. And so being able to build upon speaking the language outside of the classroom will be a really important part of, first of all, developing individuals' skills and proficiency, but also sending a very clear message of the place of the language within not just the life of school, but the daily lives of our children and the communities in which they live.

Thank you, Minister.

The next questions, therefore, are questions to the Minister for Health and Social Services, and the first question is from Siân Gwenllian.

Thank you for the question. The NHS-led cancer implementation group has funded two pilot rapid diagnostic centres. The interim evaluation reports were considered at its meeting in November 2019 and the final evaluation is due to be considered at its meeting in May of this year. I will update Members later in the year on the evaluation and the impact upon NHS planning and delivery.

We know that diagnosing cancer early can be the difference between a good outcome or a poor outcome when it comes to treatment of that cancer. Quite simply, diagnosing cancer early will often save a patient's life. The positive evidence coming forward as a result of the pilot schemes in Neath Port Talbot and in the Royal Glamorgan Hospital is to be welcomed. But the people of Gwynedd are calling for a similar service, with over 1,500 people having signed an open letter calling for a rapid diagnostic centre in our area. Given that cancer does lead to more deaths in Gwynedd than anything else, and as we do know that rapid diagnosis does save lives, when will we see a rapid diagnostic centre coming to the north-west of Wales?

Well, as I say, the evaluation due in May of this year will allow us to understand the exact impact, although, obviously, the highlighting in the last couple of days has been a positive initial evaluation. The final evaluation will tell us more about not just those two sites, but then help to inform a national plan and, at that point, I'll be able to update Members on what that looks like, because there is more to consider than just simply picking locations; it's also about then having the right workforce and the right capital, should that be a requirement, around it as well. But I'm looking forward to the final evaluation and then making a choice, together with the system, about how to take that forward.

Minister, I think we all read the very positive story about Neath Port Talbot yesterday. Of course, they've tested the pilots in England, and they are well on their way to establishing a national network. In fact, by April of this year—that's a whole month before your evaluation is finally conducted—there will be a network in England. Why are we so far behind?

We're not so far behind. I don't think that's a fair reflection at all, with respect, Mr Melding. The reality is that we've set up these pilots, we're learning lots from them, and I expect to make choices across our system within this year, and we'll then be into the implementation phase. I wouldn't quite take at face value every single press release that is issued in England about where they are in reality in terms of their service. We've seen, for example, in other periods of health spending and health performance where press releases are issued but don't actually reflect the reality upon the ground. I'm interested in an evaluation within our system of how our system works in an integrated and planned way in delivering that care on a more consistent basis across the country when we know what the right answer is. I'm much more interested in being in the space of helping to direct the service to make improvements, rather than simply saying there are lots of good ideas but I don't have a view on what that should mean across the service.

Minister, will you join me in congratulating Dr Heather Wilkes and her team at Neath Port Talbot Hospital, and her predecessor, Dr Jeremiah, who have actually undertaken this work, and, as a consequence, we are seeing that lives are being saved through earlier diagnosis? But as you pointed out, just now and in the committee this morning, if we want more of these, we need staff to be able to deliver those departments and those units. What are you doing, as a Government, to prepare for a situation where, if these pilots are shown to be the case, with continuing positive results, we'll be able to expand this into other areas, so we have the staff, we have the resources and we have the equipment to ensure that this can be expanded across Wales?

I think the points that I made in committee today are still exactly the right ones. It is about recognising not just the plan to have these, but, actually, the work of the staff to lead and deliver that work on the ground in a pilot phase, and that the learning isn't just the outcomes of what that means, but also the staff mix that you need to deliver them successfully. So, the evaluation can't simply be about, 'This is the right answer', and then not having a view on how that moves forward.

I want to be in a position to understand whether we need to make different investment choices centrally, or whether, actually, we need to help direct and get around our system in different parts of the service. That's why, for example, we've continued to invest in imaging services, not just the imaging academy, to improve the quality of training and to improve the retention of staff, but also the investment we've made in the most recent round of healthcare professionals' training and the additional investment we've made in radiotherapists, for example, as well. So, this is about equipping ourselves for the future, but still properly understanding that there's more we need to do when we have that full evaluation of what to do next.

I thank David Rees for that question. I am having regular discussions about these issues with health and social care partners, as is the Minister, including meetings in Swansea Bay last week. It is vital to prevent unnecessary admissions and transfer people from hospital to their homes or community settings as soon as they are ready.

Thank you for that answer, Deputy Minister. As the Minister found out for himself last week, when he visited the minor injury unit in Neath Port Talbot Hospital, there were, on that particular day, 125 patients in Morriston awaiting discharge who were physically fit to go out of hospital, but who were sitting there because they weren't able to get out. There's clearly a relationship with partners to make sure that care packages are in place, that care home places are available, or nursing home places are available, and that the adaptations are done. This is causing a problem, because we are always highlighting the fact that there are ambulances parked up outside hospitals and that accident and emergency departments are facing difficulties, but there's the flow through the hospitals and the discharges that are actually blocking everything up.

What are you actually doing to ensure that those departments and those social services, those partners, are actually doing the best they can? I know they're under pressure—I fully appreciate the pressures they're under—but they need to be able to ensure that those patients can get out as soon as possible so that the beds that they're occupying can be released to make sure that the flow through hospitals gets better.

Thank you, David Rees, for making those very important points. We do expect health boards to work together with local authorities and with the third sector to ensure that people do return home from hospital as soon as they are fit to do so, because I think we all know about the damage of people staying in hospital longer, as well as affecting the flow through the hospital. I know from recent visits, particularly to Swansea Bay, that there is a real commitment to do this.

So, we are putting effort and money in. We're supporting improvements through the national Every Day Counts programme and the discharge to recovery and assess pathways. We've invested in new initiatives through the integrated care fund and the transformation fund, where, of course, local authorities, health boards and the third sector all work together to come up with solutions.

The Swansea Bay region is putting in a number of measures, including through investing over £1 million in its hospital-to-home service, which they told me about in detail last week. That is supporting early discharge. These actions have led to improvements, so, certainly, in November and December the delayed transfers of care were reduced.

You mentioned the transformation fund, Minister, and the delayed discharges into community settings. One of the barriers is still around the whole area of funding, particularly if a person requires funding from both the health service and from the social services because of the mixed care package that they require. Quite often, there are—a kind way, perhaps, to describe it—marginal turf wars. People have got their own budgets, they've got to protect their budgets and they have to account for their budgets. I wondered what work is being done, through the transformation fund, particularly in 'A Healthier West Wales', where all of the organisations are supposedly coming together to deliver better outcomes for patients and getting them out of hospitals and back into community settings. I wonder if we're able to start learning some lessons about how we can resolve these funding issues, so that, whatever else happens, getting somebody out of a hospital and back into their home or into residential care—the block is not because of funding and who pays what element of the care that person requires. 

Angela Burns is right, there is sometimes difficulty over those different elements of funding. But it's absolutely essential that the patient, the individual, is at the absolute centre of the way that decisions are made. And I know that there have been projects, under the transformation funding, looking at how that can develop, and I hope that we'll be able to learn through that. Continuing care is one issue that has to be addressed, and I think we've had a statement on that fairly recently, and I know that we are looking at certain elements of community care and reviewing them. 

Questions now from the party spokespeople. Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Helen Mary Jones. 

Diolch, Llywydd. Does the Minister agree with the statement made by the First Minister yesterday in response to questions from Adam Price, when talking about pressures on the ambulance service? And I quote:

'The problem is not one that is soluble in the hands of the ambulance service alone...It is a whole-systems issue, in which we have to...clear people through the whole system so that, when the system comes under pressure, as...over the last few weeks, there is room at the front door.'

And does he further expect us to believe the First Minister when the First Minister told Adam Price that:

'we have resolved the problem...and the situation is much better than it was when I started as health Minister'?

Because I would submit, Llywydd, that is not the experience of my constituents who are served by Betsi Cadwaladr and by Hywel Dda health boards.

Yes, I think the First Minister properly describes it as a whole-systems issue; it certainly is. That's been reinforced to me on the visits that I've had through the start of this winter period, in this calendar year already. And that's a change from just a few years ago, to go into emergency departments and not to have people saying, 'We need more consultants', but actually saying, 'We need more investment in social care.' So, it is definitely a whole-systems issue.

But also, I think when you look at where we are, then actually yes we have. If you look objectively at where we are in terms of delayed transfers of care, we are better now than when the First Minister started his time as the health Minister. We have a number of things that have improved within our system. Our challenge, as ever, is the rate of improvement we make in our health and care systems, and the ever-changing rate and nature of demand and need. And that is the constant challenge that we face in the health service, and it goes back into the questions and conversations we had yesterday around the transformation fund in its broader sense around healthcare. 

I'm grateful to the Minister for his response. I wish I could characterise it as adequate; I'm afraid I can't. I have been looking back at the Minister's statements around winter pressures over the past three years, and he always says the same things. He always talks about norovirus and flu, and he says the same things when you have a really challenging year, when you actually have lots of norovirus or flu, and he says the same things when, as in this year, in fact, the situation is not that challenging.

Now, he may be right that there are some aspects of the service in unscheduled care that have improved since the First Minister's time, but one thing that has not been solved is the interface between health and social care. Now, Llywydd, we all know that the portfolios for health and social care have been held in our Parliament by Welsh Ministers for the last 20 years. Can the Minister tell me, can he reassure us today, that we will not be having this same conversation in another year's time, let alone in another 20 years' time?

Well, I don't expect to be having this conversation in 20 years' time; I hope my life will have moved on to a different point by then.

But in terms of some of the things that you said, when you describe it as not being challenging, actually, the context in which we deliver health and care is challenging. And it isn't just related to the circulation of flu or norovirus or the weather; it is the changing nature and mood of our population. And in the statement that I issued earlier today, the fact that we've had a 23 per cent increase in red ambulance calls during that period—the sickest, the most unwell people—an increase of that nature from one winter to another, that is the sort of trend you'd expect to see over several years, not over one winter. So, the context is different. The increase is different. And it's not just me saying that; any and every part of the national health service in each of the four countries in the UK is describing the same ramping up in challenges and pressures.

And in terms of the staff that I've met, they understand very well the nature of those challenges they see coming through the door, and they don't describe it as, 'It's just the same as previous winters where the system can't cope.' So, you go back to the challenge about the interface between health and social care. And, again, we've made real progress. When you look at the work that partnership boards are doing and the way they used money, not just this winter, but the improvement in relationships—. It is because of those improvements and the interface between health and social care that we're seeing flow restored, that we see flow continuing in different parts of the country, in and out of the hospital. And we are more successful than ever at keeping people in their own home now as well.

But it's still, 'How do we get even further ahead?', and that's why we're looking over not just this winter, but into the next winter, about how we get further ahead and actually spend more, not just money together, but more to stabilise and improve the services on that interface between health and social care, to keep people in their own homes more successfully, and on the ways to get them out of hospitals, which is no longer the right place for their treatment.

Well, the problem, of course, is, Llywydd, that nobody disbelieves the Minister when he's saying these things, but the problem is that he's been saying a variety of them, and his predecessors have been saying a variation on a theme. It may very well be, and I'm not questioning his figures, that we have, for example, had an exceptional number of vulnerable patients, but that begs the question about why those patients are becoming so vulnerable, why they're not receiving the care in the community that they ought to be receiving, and it brings us back to this whole issue of an abject failure to deliver the whole-systems approach.

We need to be very clear, Llywydd, that this is not an attack on the staff. We know that staff are doing excellent work. We also know that, in some places, local authorities are co-operating well or less well with their local health boards, and that where they are co-operating well that that is delivering change. But my question would be: where is the national leadership to scale up that change? Now, the Minister will no doubt talk again about the transformation fund, but I would again remind this Chamber that he or his party have been in charge of this for 20 years, and I am no more reassured by what he said this afternoon than I have been about all the other things that he's said over the preceding years. 

But I want to bring us back to a specific. So, the Minister has just acknowledged, as the First Minister said, that one of the issues around discharging patients from ambulances into hospitals—one of the reasons for the pressures—is that there is a need for a whole-systems approach. So, I'm a little bit surprised in that regard that the Minister has decided to set up yet another task and finish group to review the ambulance service. If the problems are not in the ambulance service but are actually in social care, in delayed transfers of care—and I would argue in the capacity that's been stripped out of the system—why is it going to be helpful to have yet another review of the ambulance service, which on other occasions he's told me is perfectly all right? I am somewhat at a loss. 

I'm not particularly interested to hear what the Minister says to defend the decision, to be completely honest. But what I would ask him factually is: who are the members of this task and finish review going to be? He's told us who the chair and the vice-chair are going to be—or joint chairs, I apologise. Well, who are the members of this going to be? How is the voice of patients,  and particularly the most vulnerable patients like older people and people with learning disabilities, going to be heard in this review? And when does he expect it to report? Because I think we're all losing patience with task and finish groups and reviews. What I would like to see is a health Minister who's prepared to make a decision. 

I make decisions every single day in this office. I've made a number of decisions about directing the future of the service, not just the overarching 10-year plan in 'A Healthier Wales' but many more, as the Member knows. I appreciate there's a sense of theatre to this, but every now and again we should try and deal with some of the more realistic elements of what we're dealing with in the service. 

When you talk about why are patients so vulnerable, we know very well why lots of our patients are more vulnerable now than in previous years. It's part of our success story of keeping people alive for longer. It's also partly about the challenge of the burden of ill health and disease that is not a part of the natural ageing process. So, the Member knows that very well.

When it comes to capacity being stripped out of the system, we haven't stripped necessarily capacity out of the system. Our challenge is our ability to increase it across the whole system to the extent that it is then properly sustainable to deliver the care that we need. And, actually, if you looked at any objective commentators about where that capacity exists, then I don't think they share the Member's analysis.

And when it comes to the task force that I have set up, you know very well who the chairs are, and I'll announce all of the members who are taking part in that in due course. I expect them to report to me to make early suggestions before the end of this winter period, so before the end of March. I expect to have the full measure of that within a period of three months or so. I have not set something up to take six to 12 months to avoid the challenge. I am interested in some advice and some challenge about how we do this across the whole system.

I think the Member has misunderstood this about just being focused on the ambulance service. It's actually about improving ambulance availability, and that requires a look at the whole system. I look forward to being able to report back on that properly to Members once that advice is available to me.

Conservative spokesperson, Janet Finch-Saunders.

Diolch, Llywydd. There is absolutely no doubt that we have a selfless army of 370,000 unpaid carers in Wales. In November 2017, the Welsh Government announced that one of its priorities to support the delivery of the enhanced rights of carers under the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014 was to support life alongside caring. 

On Carers Rights Day 2018, the Welsh Government announced a £15 million investment in preventative services that support adults with care needs and carers who need support. On Carers Rights Day 2019, your Government announced that you will be developing a national action plan this year to strengthen the national co-ordination of support for carers. Evidence has emerged showing that 59 per cent of carers in Wales stated that, over the festive period, they really struggled, and 45 per cent are struggling even to make ends meet.

The director of Carers Wales has commented that carers across Wales sacrifice so much looking after a loved one, yet their contribution to society goes largely unnoticed and under-appreciated.  What actions are you taking, Deputy Minister or Minister, to ensure that the new national action plan you're going to be working on will address this?

I thank Janet Finch-Saunders for that very important question. I think we all appreciate the huge contribution that carers make—the 370,000 that she referred to—and we want to make their lives as easy as we possibly can.

She mentioned that one of the Welsh Government's priorities was life alongside caring. It's also to ensure that carers can identify themselves as carers and that we know them as carers, so that any help that is available they can access. And we also want to be sure that there is advice and information available for them. And those are our three priorities, and we have supported those priorities through a series of funding initiatives, and we have also re-emphasised the ministerial advisory group—the group that is advising the carers group.

I'm also aware that the Health, Social Care and Sport Committee has had an extensive investigation into carers and have 31 recommendations for the Government, which we will be responding to shortly. So, I can assure her that carers are very much on our minds and that we are addressing their issues.

Thank you, Deputy Minister, I do appreciate your efforts in this regard, but we have to face facts: more than any other nation in the UK, Wales is very dependent on its carers. The percentage of adults who have been carers during their adult life was found to be 63 per cent in England, 65 per cent in Scotland, 66 per cent in Northern Ireland, yet 70 per cent in Wales.

Part 3 of the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014—and I sat through the scrutiny of this—placed a duty on a local authority to offer an assessment to any carer. When considering the data for the number of assessments undertaken, it would seem that there is a positive trend, with the numbers going up from 6,178 in 2016-17 to 7,261 in 2018-19. This isn't good enough. Looking at the situation in some detail, I have found that the number of assessments in Wales has actually fallen in seven local authorities. 

When considering Carers Trust findings that the number of carers will increase in the UK by around 60 per cent by 2030, we should actually be seeing an increase in these assessments, not a decrease. So, will you, as Deputy Minister with responsibility for this, investigate why this is not the case in almost 40 per cent of our local authorities, and ascertain whether some carers are missing out on what is, in fact, a statutory right for their assessment?

It was groundbreaking, in the Act that Janet Finch-Saunders referred to, that carers had a right to a carers assessment, and we want to ensure that as many carers as possible get access to that right. That's why one of our priorities is identifying carers and for carers to self-identify, because many people carry out the role of caring for a loved person and don't identify themselves as a carer. So, I think it's very important that we emphasise who is a carer and what help is available. And of course, I think we have to accept as well that some carers don't want an assessment. But I accept what she's saying and I think we've seen from all the reports that have come from the Carers Trust and from other organisations that there are people who are not getting the service that we would wish, as a Government, for them to have. And that's why we are putting more resources into projects related to caring, and the sustainable social services grants that will be announced fairly soon give significant funding to carer organisations, and we do intend to increase our support.

Thank you. I'd just like to emphasise once again that it's the number of assessments—when carers do present and want those assessments and they're not able to access them. Since the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014, I think it's even more important that your Government isn't failing on those.

Now, social care demands such as providing support for carers and looked-after children and meeting domiciliary care needs are placing local authorities under huge financial pressure. For example, it is partly because of social care and children's services demands that Monmouthshire local authority is facing a £4 million deficit this year. Conwy County Borough Council, my own local authority, is forecasting a financial deficit of £12.5 million for the next financial year. Whilst the draft budget allocates £40 million via a special grant to local authorities to address pressures in social care in 2020-21, the £30 million allocated via grants to local authorities last year did not succeed in addressing these pressures in social care. So, I suppose it's a really obvious question on my part: why do you think that £40 million is going to be enough to actually help these local authorities meet their duties, especially including those owed to carers and looked-after children? 

Certainly, the £30 million was used very effectively by local authorities. The decision as to how it was actually used was left largely to the local authorities, because they are closer to their needs. But certainly, we know of the sorts of issues that they used that £30 million for: nine local authorities utilised this funding to support adult and older people's services; eight local authorities used the funding to support domiciliary care for older people; and eleven local authorities used a portion to increase wages across the sector which, of course, is an issue—the wage levels that exist in the social care sector. And so, I'm very pleased that we've been able to give an extra £10 million to local authorities for them to use in these sorts of ways I've described, and in any other ways that they feel are going to help, because we absolutely accept that there is pressure on the social care sector.

It's crucially important to the people of Wales that we are able to provide them with adequate care when they need it, and that's why we have a whole variety of initiatives to try to tackle these issues. We've mentioned the transformation funds and the integrated care fund, and all those are used to have integrated working to help the social care sector. And I absolutely acknowledge the issue about children, and that is one of the reasons why we are working to try to keep children at home with their families, where we put in extra support to try to help them stay there rather than have to go into care. So, we have got a whole host of initiatives, but I absolutely accept that there is more that we need to do. 

Brexit Party spokesperson, Mark Reckless. 

Diolch, Llywydd. 

Minister, I wanted to enquire about the thinking behind how our pay scales for hospital doctors differ from those in England, and the impact that this has on recruitment and retention. I note that, for the first-year foundation doctors, our scales are between £1,300 and £1,500 higher per year than in England, but don't doctors look through that and see that at the end of that foundation year as they go into the second foundation year, in England they get approximately a £2,800 increase compared to only £700 in Wales? That then leaves them around £600 per year less than equivalents would get in England. And that continues to the specialty registrars, where they start about £600 less than in England, and then at the top of the highest pay point, it's about £1,000 less than in England. When I speak with doctors in Wales, I often find that their perception of the difference between the pay scales and an idea that somehow pay is significantly less in Wales is out of all proportion to the   relatively small amount of those differences I've just described, and I wonder if, therefore, there may be a negative impact on recruitment and retention, which is out of all proportion to the modest amount of savings made by the lower pay scales I've described.

There are two points that I think I should make. The first is that, in the thinking that lies behind the pay arrangements, that's a matter of negotiation between the Government, NHS employers, and the recognised trade union, the BMA, so, there's a range of things to take into account with that. Obviously, from the industrial side, you expect they'll want to get the very best possible deal for their members, but also there's the balancing of what the system can afford and there's what that does in terms of recruitment and retention. And there is some sensitivity about differential scales, potentially, on either side of the borders. There's a bit of divergence, obviously, at the junior end of the scale because of the contract that was imposed in England. And, actually, in our very direct engagement with the BMA and their juniors' committee, they were really clear that they thought that we'd done the right thing in not following suit.

We've agreed, as part of the normal way, that we will continue to negotiate both the longer term challenges about consultants' pay, where I think it would be preferable to take a multi-nation approach, but that's something to discuss and to talk about, together with a review on the juniors' contract position here in Wales. There's certainly no agenda given to try to somehow save a small amount of money and to risk recruitment and retention, because, actually, doctors look at a much wider suite of things: they look at training, they look at excellence, the future of the services and whether they believe that that's somewhere they actually want to work. That's why we have a campaign, 'Train. Work. Live.', because all of those aspects make a difference to where a whole range of health professionals choose to locate themselves for their careers.

I thank the Minister for his reply. If I may turn to the particular issue in light of that of pensions, I think it was when the Minister was standing in for the First Minister at a previous First Minister's questions that I asked him about what had happened in England to pay those extra costs that doctors were finding and would we be doing similar in Wales. I see that we now are doing so; there's been a ministerial direction for that to happen.

But I just wondered if I could highlight a key difference between what we're doing in Wales and the position for the UK Government for England, as I raised with the Finance Minister earlier in committee, in that, for the UK Government, it is essentially an accounting transaction between the NHS for England and the Treasury. Whereas, for us in Wales, don't we face the same cliff edge that doctors face themselves, and they choose not to take on extra sessions, because the impacts on their pensions of those extra sessions are so much greater that it costs them money to do so? And the marginal costs of those sessions are huge because of the way that they interact with the pension system. Isn't that also the case for Welsh Government if they choose to pay that tax? And is it a cost-effective way, certainly, of anything beyond the very short term, of our spending Welsh taxpayers' money on these very substantial sums to pay pension tax to UK Government when we're only getting modest increases in the number of sessions delivered by doctors out of that?

I think it's a very real problem and it certainly hasn't been resolved. In the context of pressure across every single UK nation and the national health service in winter, it's an exacerbation of that because some of the people we're talking about work at the front of the hospital system together with people who work in general practice as well, whether in in-hours or out-of-hours. So it affects the whole system and there are other groups of staff, clinical and non-clinical, affected by the same issue.

So, the choice made in England, I would say that it was pretty extraordinary to do so in the middle of an election campaign and to do so without any contact with the other Governments within the UK as well. I don't think that was particularly well reflected in the way that lots of healthcare staff, regardless of their views on how to vote, felt about that choice being made, and there is a real need to go back to look at the direct impact. The impact upon staff on the cliff edge that some face is potentially having in-year bills that are the same or more than their rates of pay or significant sums of money that they just haven't provided for and can't plan for, and you couldn't reasonably expect them to do so as well.

There's also a challenge about the long-term effects of the pension scheme. If you get your higher earners and higher contributors coming out of that scheme and not making contributions, that affects everyone who's in the scheme. But more than that, these are UK rules, and they're UK rules designed and delivered by the UK Treasury—they affect all of us. And I certainly hope that, in the UK budget coming up within the next coming months, they resolve the problem that they have created. Because it will cost more money to resolve it  otherwise, because we'll do that in the sense that the arrangement we've already had to work around now; we'll do that by paying more for activity, probably in the independent sector, to recover activity that won't take place within the national health service. But, more than that, we are bleeding away the goodwill of staff who are directly affected, and some of those staff who come and work additional hours within the national health service, to undertake waiting list initiatives in every one of the four UK countries, may decide not to come back, and we may find that we need to recruit, train and retain even more of those staff in the future, with even more cost to the taxpayer and the national health service to do so.

I think it is a self-defeating measure. I've written or I'll shortly be writing again, and I'll happily make Members aware of that when I do, to the UK Government asking them to, again, have an attack of common sense, to look again at the rules, and to do the right thing by the national health service, because all of us will pay if they don't do so, and it's literally affecting thousands and thousands of episodes of patient treatment and care. That has to be the wrong choice to make, and I certainly hope that the UK Government do the right thing and then they can all argue about who should take credit for it afterwards.

We support a range of activities to drive service improvement, examples of which were set out in my statements of 19 November 2019, 8 October 2019, and 16 July 2019. Our priority is to ensure that people in the Cwm Taf Morgannwg University Health Board area receive health services that deliver the best possible outcomes and experience.

Minister, I have a question about the state of perinatal care, and I fear this situation is the norm, and not the exception. A constituent has contacted me with one of the most distressing accounts of being failed by the NHS that I've come across. She says that the love for her children is the only thing that stopped her ending her life. The woman concerned is also being supported by the Birth Trauma Association, who've been shocked by the repeated failings, the lack of improving access to psychological therapies and the inability of mothers to self-refer.

I have written to the chief executive of the trust, to try and get justice on this individual case, but I think this matter highlights a general lack of perinatal care facilities here in Wales—a matter that was highlighted by my much missed colleague Steffan Lewis, many, many years ago. So, do you agree with me and with Steffan that there needs to be an urgent improvement in perinatal care in Wales, and if you do agree, how do you intend to do it? 

Well, obviously, I don't know the individual circumstances that the Member has referred to, and if she wants me to take an interest, then I'll be happy to do so in the individual matter. I'd be interested in knowing, but I'd need the permission of her and her constituent to do so, and what the response is to the complaints and concerns that have been raised.

When it comes to what we do about it, we have invested significantly in community perinatal care, but there is the challenge about delivering the mother and baby unit that we're committed to doing, but that's only one part of the jigsaw, and it's part of the overall improvement. So, yes, I do believe that they need to be improved. I have written to the Children, Young People and Education Committee to set out where we are. There's some disappointment about the pace and scale of change, and I'm looking at an interim solution before a permanent one is in place on the inpatient care. And I committed again today in budget scrutiny with the Health, Social Care and Sport Committee to make sure that they're copied in when I provide a further update to the children and young people's committee.

But this is a significant area of activity and of improvement activity, as well. The perinatal lead that we have in place, Sharon Fernandez, a recognised health visitor, is actually helping to drive some of that improvement. I'd be more than happy to write to the Member with more detail on that programme if that would be helpful.

Minister, a few months ago, I asked you about the discrepancy in ambulance discharge times for my constituents attending the Princess of Wales Hospital, as compared to those attending other hospitals in Cwm Taf Morgannwg. Now I've had a freedom of information response showing that my constituents who live in the Bridgend County Borough Council area are waiting far longer for orthopaedic surgery than those living elsewhere within the Cwm Taf Morgannwg area. The wait for knee replacements, new hips and shoulder surgery is nine months for residents in the old Cwm Taf area. My constituents, however, are having to wait twice as long as that, and in the case of knee replacement, a minimum of two years. Cwm Taf Morgannwg have started to outsource the simpler cases to private hospitals—let's hear the howls of indignation now—and by organising weekend work at Princess of Wales Hospital. But are you happy with the inequities of provision within one health board?

No, there's not just a challenge about it within one health board, but the broader improvement we know is required, in particular when it comes to joint replacement surgery, in a number of different parts of Wales. That's part of the reason why we're looking not just at the planned care improvement activity, but what that means in terms of reorganising the range of our services in hospitals, and actually finally getting to the point of understanding how we get to have a planned care system that isn't overloaded and interrupted by emergency care. So we're going to need to look again and be able to deliver some planned care activities where we don't have emergency care taking place on the same site.

Now, that's part of the challenge not just for one health board but for health boards generally. That's part of the reason why I've required health boards to look together, regionally, to plan some of those activities as well, and I fully expect to be updating Members in the course of the year on what that is likely to mean, because I want to see improvement in every part of the country, not just within one health board area.

Performance against emergency department access targets is not where we, the public or the NHS want it to be and I have made clear my expectation with health boards of the requirement for continuous improvement. We continue to work with all stakeholders to support the delivery of a whole-system improvement.

Thank you. Minister, A&E has seen a decade of decline in Wales. The percentage of patients seen within the four-hour target time has fallen from 90.9 per cent in October 2009 to 74.4 per cent in November 2019. The sirens are screeching loudest in Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board, which has fallen from 93.7 per cent in October 2009 to 72.2 per cent last November. The reality is even worse in some hospitals, especially Ysbyty Glan Clwyd, which is now the worst performing A&E in Wales. Not once has this hospital hit the 95 per cent target. What urgent actions will you take in conjunction with the chief executive of the health board to review and reform the A&E department at Ysbyty Glan Clwyd?

Well, I don't think it's a question of a single department being the issue in question, but there is improvement work taking place on peer leadership and exchange between the three departments in north Wales. There's been outside intervention together as well over the course of not just last winter, but this winter, too. You'll also have seen the measures we've taken, for example, with the Red Cross and pharmacy intervention within each of the emergency departments as well. If you look at the—[Interruption.]

Carry on.

And if you look at the challenges that exist right across the United Kingdom—[Interruption.]

Can we allow the Minister to respond to the question, please?

If you look at the challenges right across the United Kingdom, you'll see exactly the same pressure right across the system, both in England, Scotland and Northern Ireland, where each system talks and does honestly reflect the challenges that it has. I think when you look at the work that I'll be able to confirm early in this year on reforming and improving emergency care, you'll see we have listened to our clinicians, we're looking at new ways to improve, and of course the statement that I've made today sets out a range of improvement actions that will take place not just at the front door, but through our whole system. So I think you can already see action that is being taken, and there'll be more that I'll announce in the next coming months.

Minister, the health board remains in special measures, so the state of affairs has developed on your watch. Every year you prepare for winter pressures, and the latest BBC headlines this morning were that, for the whole of Wales, there were 79,150 wasted hours for ambulance crews waiting outside A&E. That's the equivalent of nine years, and that was last year, for crews waiting outside A&E. That's every year, and every year you appear to get caught out. If we look at the Record for this time last year, I know that the same questions and the same answers will feature. When will we see the improvements our constituents deserve?

Well, that's exactly why, in the statement that I've issued today, I set out the work that will be done to look at ambulance availability. That's about releasing ambulances into the community, but also, as I've said, it must be about further improvements to get people through the hospital and out of a hospital as well. We have been more successful than ever at keeping people in their own homes than before.

When it comes to a new way of working in emergency care, the programme's being led Jo Mower, the national clinical lead for unscheduled care, and we've invested in that programme. She's worked with her peers in emergency departments across the country to look at what that means for those departments, but that then has to be linked in to what that means for the whole system. So, my expectation is that we don't just provide care in the here and now and have a short-term answer; we need a longer term answer as well. Because I wouldn't pretend to any Member in this place, regardless of their party, that I'm sanguine and content about the current level of performance within our A&E system—that is both for the staff who work in it and the pressure that they feel, but also for people as well. And indeed, the conversation I had with a patient in Morriston A&E reinforced that. There's great support and understanding among the public about the pressure on the system, but actually what they want is improvement, and that's exactly what I want as well.

We're closely working with the chief ambulance commissioner, health boards and the Welsh ambulance service to identify actions to support immediate and sustainable improvement in ambulance responsiveness. I made a written statement on this issue earlier today.

I'm grateful to the Minister for his response. I believe it's important that when we talk about these issues we remember that we are talking about real people, real families, and the impact on their lives.

I want to draw the Minister's attention to a constituent from Llanelli who contacted me last week regarding his father's treatment following a fall on Sunday 29 December. He fractured his hip. The elderly gentleman was fortunate he wasn't by himself. A phone call was made to the emergency services at 8.30 p.m. It was not responded to until 10.30 a.m. That's a 14-hour wait for a vulnerable, elderly 88-year-old gentleman. By the time Mr Ogborne was taken into Morriston Hospital and given a bed, almost a whole day had passed since his fall, and he was very fortunate, of course, that he wasn't on his own when that happened. The situation was exasperated by a very large number of ambulances queuing outside A&E. His hip operation was scheduled for 31 December. It eventually took place on 1 January, but his health deteriorated further, and very sadly he succumbed to his illness and died on 4 January this year.

I hope the Minister will agree with me that this is not the kind of treatment that particularly our most elderly and vulnerable constituents and citizens of Wales should expect. I hope that he will be able to provide some assurance to the family that the outcome of the review that he's already allowing today will make it less likely that people like Mr Ogborne will be asked to wait this kind of length of time again. And I wonder if the Minister—though there may be complications—will consider apologising to Mr Ogborne's family, because I know that this is not the standard of service that the Minister would want.

No, it certainly isn't the standard of service that I'd want. Obviously, I don't know all of the details, but I wouldn't describe what the Member has set out as being acceptable, and I'm sorry that any person would have that sort of experience. That's exactly why we're looking at ambulance response rates again with a short task and finish group, to look at actions to be taken sooner rather than later. There's nothing easy about this. The Member made this point earlier: if this was easy, we'd have pulled a lever and done it a long time ago. There isn't an easy answer to resolving all of the challenges of long waits in the system.

We know we've made real and sustained improvement in our ambulance service over the last four years. We know that other systems in Scotland and England have largely copied what we've done. But we also know that we've had a challenge that has grown over the last couple of years in particular about broader responsiveness, and that's what I'm looking to get into, to make sure that we have ambulances that are generally available for the risks that exist in the community, because while you manage what's in the front door of a hospital and that ties up resources there, you can't manage and deal with the risk in the way that you'd want to in the community. And that's accepted across the system as well, so it isn't about poking fingers at one part of our system; it's about delivering that whole-system improvement to deliver better care and more timely care for people right across the country.

This approach is set out in the cancer delivery plan, which remains in place until December of this year. This includes the pilots on rapid diagnostic centres we discussed earlier, supporting primary care referral practice and the single cancer pathway. There are also important national programmes in place to support diagnostic services, such as imaging, pathology and endoscopy.

Thank you for that and, of course, I heard the response you gave to the Member for Arfon when she raised a very similar question earlier on, but I just want to talk about gaps in the diagnostic workforce. And if I was to take an example, such as histopathologists, since the new junior doctor contract was introduced in England in 2016, a significant difference between the pay given to trainees studying histopathology in Wales and those across the border in England has developed, meaning that if you're a histopathologist working in England, you'll earn an extra £60,000 over the course of your career compared to a counterpart in Wales. And there is a really strong view from stakeholders that this is contributing, in part—it's not all of it, but it's contributing—to the 40 per cent drop-out rate of trainees from the Welsh training programme since 2017. Forty per cent. That's a shockingly high number. So, given these problems facing the workforce and given that they'll continue to have a severe impact, ultimately, on the patients and on our ability to do an early diagnosis of cancer and therefore improve people's quality of life, can you please outline what your Government is doing to resolve this problem and also provide a time frame as to when any action would take place?

Well, actually, the good news is that we've filled all of our histopathology training places this year, but I'm aware of not just the role that histopathologists have within cancer but more broadly as well, and there is the point about retaining those people during the course of their training and afterwards as well. And it is, as I said in discussion earlier with Mark Reckless, only partly about the pay. It is also about the broader conditions of service and the direction of travel that we have as well. And as we get into having a fully fledged health and social care workforce strategy, we'll have a strategic plan for that to hang around as well. But we are already taking action. As you've seen, we're obviously increasing places, there's the extra priority and, like I said, it is encouraging, of course, that we filled all of those places this year. But it is a matter that's constantly kept under review because, as we want to expand and more successfully deliver the single cancer pathway, we'll need to look again at the workforce we have and the workforce that we need. 

Thank you for that question. We are continuing to monitor and review Choose Well materials to ensure these target the intended audience. We are also focusing specifically on a digital first approach this winter, while retaining the My Winter Health Plan scheme for those who don't have access to the internet or social media.

Thank you for that answer, Deputy Minister. During my pre-Christmas visit to Prince Charles Hospital in Merthyr, I was pleased to meet a range of staff, including the Red Cross staff working in the emergency department on the well-being and home safe service. And I think the health Minister's written statement this morning recognised that we should all be aware of the contribution that organisations like the Red Cross actually make in supporting the NHS.

I was also pleased to see in the Minister's statement that a ministerial task force is to be set up and will be looking at alternative pathways to avoid unnecessary attendance at A&E. So, in parallel with this, can I ask what more can be done to raise even more awareness of the Choose Well campaign, in order that we can direct patients to an appropriate location for their health needs? Because whilst there's clearly a lot more to do in managing the pressures on our emergency system, part of the solution must be to ensure that people who shouldn't be in A&E get the help that they need where they need it, when they need it, in the most appropriate settings. 

I thank Dawn Bowden for that very important question, and I would certainly want to commend the work of the Red Cross in the hospital in Merthyr Tydfil and also thank all staff across NHS Wales and the social care sector who, as we know from the discussions we've had here this afternoon, are working under pressure to provide care to the people of Wales. So we are working very closely with all the health boards and social care service providers to ensure that they do deliver the best outcome for patients and to support the further practical work that we need to do.

The Choose Well scheme has been successful. It has succeeded in directing more people to send their queries to other places rather than turning up at the emergency departments and A&E, and we're continually monitoring what the message should be. We're also ensuring that we have a message about mental health in the Choose Well programmes, that people recognise the difficulties that people experience and the mental health problems that crop up, particularly over periods like the Christmas period, so we're also looking at that.

But we are also continuing the scheme where we get all the information about a person and ask them to pin it up somewhere, like on a fridge in their room, so that there is information available in the home for professionals when they're asked for help, in order to try to do the best for the patient and to try to keep them at home, if possible, in all circumstances.

Finally, question 8—Alun Davies.

Thank you. We're improving services through the autism strategy, and the integrated autism service is operating across Wales, including in Blaenau Gwent. We will consult on the draft statutory autism code of practice this spring and we are undertaking a demand and capacity review to ensure that services meet the needs of autistic people and their families.

I'm grateful to the Minister for that, and I know the Minister has demonstrated a very great personal commitment to delivering a high level and high quality of services for people and families with autism. I would ask him to review the way that those policies are being delivered in Blaenau Gwent. I hear in my advice surgeries on a weekly basis about difficulties that families are having accessing services. I recognise that this isn't happening across the whole face of the country, but I would be grateful if the Minister could commission a review of the provision of these services in Blaenau Gwent to ensure that the quality of services being delivered to people that I represent matches the best quality of provision across the whole of the country.

The Member, to be fair, has been consistent in his concern over the lived experience of autistic people and their families in his constituency and the particular concerns that he feels exist in the join-up of all of those services to help make the most positive difference for those families. I think I'm meeting shortly with a group of parents from your constituency, and I'd be happy to discuss further there not just their lived experience but where any review could or could not be done. Because we're reviewing the whole national picture, we're having a national interaction, we're listening to people's own experience, so their voices will be within the code of practice and the improvement programme that we've set out, but I'd want to understand in some more detail what that might look like and whether, actually, there could be partners locally who could do that in any event without me trying to direct that at a ministerial level or to cut across the work we're doing. I think that's probably best taken up with the Member at his constituency in the coming few weeks.

Thank you, Minister.

The next item is topical questions—two questions have been accepted today, to ask to the Minister for Economy and Transport, and the first question is from Jack Sargeant.

Yes, of course. This is extremely disappointing news, and my thoughts and sympathies go to all those directly and indirectly affected. My officials visited the Deeside site yesterday and our focus is now on persuading the company to retain the north Wales site. We are providing every bit of support possible to the employees during this difficult time.

Thank you for that answer, Minister. This is, of course, a very, very difficult time for the individuals, their families and the whole community in Deeside, and it is important now that we do all we can to support the workforce. Minister, you mentioned that you were in communication with Mondi. Can you confirm you are also in communication with the relevant trade unions? Secondly, what support can be put in place for the workforce, and, crucially, can you outline how the workforce can access this support? Minister, this news once again emphasises just how vital it is that we move quickly to support job creation in Deeside. Now, you know, Minister, and Members know across the Chamber, that I've long called for support for the Heathrow logistics hub at Tata Steel in Shotton, and I also believe that we should further invest in a second advanced manufacturing institute within the area. Minister, do you support me in these calls?

Can I thank Jack Sargeant for his questions? First and foremost, with regard to the position at the Mondi site, we'll work with company management—we've already made contact; we've visited the site—we'll work with the local authority, and we're working with staff representatives through the unions, throughout the consultation phase that is now under way, and we are hoping to reach a solution that will see the activities at the site maintained into the future. Now, whilst we hope that closure will be avoided, we stand ready to work, with the Department of Work and Pensions, our own ReAct team and other relevant stakeholders, to provide a comprehensive package of support to employees in the eventuality that the site cannot be saved.

Jobcentre Plus and Flintshire County Council have already been contacted, and they'll provide support and advice through the rapid response service that we've now established in north Wales. I'm pleased to say that Mondi has already said that it will hold a job recruitment day with local employers as part of the rapid redundancy support measures if closure is confirmed. We'll be working very closely to support this, and, if the need arises, to discuss any future use for the Deeside facility.

In terms of wider investment in the Deeside area, of course, the Heathrow logistics hub offers an enormous opportunity to provide sustainable high-quality work for many people in the area, and I would join Jack Sargeant also in saying that the second phase of the advanced manufacturing research centre—that being the advanced manufacturing research institute phase 2—is absolutely vital to promote the area and the region as a centre of excellence in electronics. We are proceeding with those plans for AMRI at pace.

I should finally say as well that in terms of skills demand in the area, employment numbers are such now in Flintshire—Flintshire, Llywydd, has the highest rate of employment in Wales, and it has the lowest rate of unemployment at just 2.3 per cent, which means that there is huge demand within the area for skilled people. As part of the work that we'll be undertaking with the company itself, we'll be carrying out a skills audit of the workforce to ensure that if it should close its doors, those people who are employed by Mondi will be able to be matched up as soon as possible with appropriate work elsewhere—for example, perhaps at KK Fine Foods, where, in the last 24 hours, we've been able to announce the creation of a further 40 jobs with investment of just over £0.5 million from the Welsh Government.

As you'll be aware, the Mondi Group creates paper and plastic packaging products, and its plants at the Deeside industrial park, where 167 jobs are at risk, and in Nelson, Lancashire, where 41 jobs are affected, create flexible plastics packaging—bags, pouches and laminates—for the consumer industry. But the company said that a change in demand for these niche products has led to the potential closures. However, in its statement last Friday, it said it will start a 45-day consultation process, which could lead to the closure of the practices. What is your understanding of the position regarding the change in demand for niche products? What support, if any, working with the other agencies and the UK Government that you described, could be given, either to help stimulate demand for those niche products or vary the niche products, perhaps, into new product lines to ensure that they meet the demand that is out there?

Can I thank Mark Isherwood for his questions in his contribution? My understanding is also that the products that come from the Deeside plant are very much niche products and that demand for them has, in recent times, subsided. As a consequence, the company needs to make a decision over whether to close the site, or whether, potentially, with assistance from the Welsh Government, perhaps the UK Government and the local authority, it could maintain its presence in north Wales by widening and broadening its base of products. That would require, of course, further research and development, and that's precisely why we've encouraged businesses to take full advantage of the advanced manufacturing research centre not far from that particular business. We would encourage the company, if it does decide to retain its presence, which we very much hope it will, to utilise the services and the collaboration within the AMRC.

In terms of the support that we stand ready to offer the workers, I've already outlined the rapid response service that now exists in north Wales and that stands ready to assist employees. In addition, we will look very closely at the pipeline of potential investments and growth that we already have for the region, and ensure that every effort is made to secure investment that could lead to new job opportunities being developed in Deeside and beyond.

It's interesting that the company cite the fact that there's been a change in demand for the niche products. Now, that does beg a broader question, of course—in what ways the Welsh Government might be helping companies to futureproof their business, given, of course, that there are societal changes and demands, and consumer trends, if you like, particularly in an environmental context. I'm just wondering what the Government might be doing to support some of those companies that might see these challenges on the horizon.

I'd be interested as well to hear whether Mondi have given an explanation why they're exiting the UK. Why consolidate outside the UK? What factors have driven that particular decision? Also, was the Welsh Government aware that there was a risk to these jobs, because my understanding is that there were issues there a couple of years ago, where the workforce actually stepped up to the plate? I'm just wondering, in the interim, whether the Government had been working with the company to try and safeguard those jobs. And if you were aware that those jobs were at risk, then maybe you could tell us what you did about it.

I can't reveal what's on our risk register in terms of businesses that we fear may be mobile and would choose to move away from Wales. That profile of businesses remains confidential because we don't want to raise any unnecessary concerns within the Welsh workforce. We maintain a very close dialogue with many of the 250,000 businesses in Wales, and we stand ready to assist any that face difficulties.

In terms of direct support that can be offered to businesses in order to futureproof against challenges such as decarbonisation, automation and digitisation and so forth, we developed the economic action plan, not just the economic contract that stands right at the centre of the economic action plan, but the new economy futures fund, with five areas of activity that allows companies to secure funding. Within those five areas, decarbonisation is one, headquartering in Wales is another, and in terms of research and development, businesses are also able to draw down funding through the economic futures fund.

Now, the example that I just gave in my response to Jack Sargeant, KK Fine Foods—they secured money in order to futureproof their activities within Deeside. They now have an economic contract that promotes decarbonisation, better health and mental health in the workplace, and fair work. They secured their funding in order to conduct more research and development at the Deeside plant, to diversify, and to move towards biodegradable packaging. That demonstrates how the economic action plan and the calls to action in the economy futures fund is working in practice on the ground to support companies transitioning to a new future.

Thank you for responding to that question. The next question is from Russell George. 

Yes, of course. I have to say it's encouraging to note that an agreement has now been reached with the UK Government that secures the ongoing operation of the airline. However, issues with regional connectivity remain and the UK Government need to intervene further in supporting the competitiveness of smaller airports.

Can I thank the Minister for his answer, and I would agree with him with regard to the welcome news that the UK Government has come to an agreement with Flybe's shareholders on a deal that will continue to allow Flybe to operate, at least in the short term? With regard to the future of Flybe, I wonder what discussions the Welsh Government has had, as owners of the airport, with both the UK Government and Flybe themselves. The Welsh Government has said in the past that Flybe would be a catalyst for the growth of the airport, so given the company's current financial status, can you expand on what discussions you've had with Cardiff Airport on the potential impact of Flybe reducing the number of routes out of Cardiff? And I wonder also if you could make an assessment of the implications for Cardiff Airport, should Flybe cease to operate, and the actions of the Welsh Government and Holdco that are taken to mitigate these.

As I understand, a 10-year arrangement or agreement was signed with Flybe when it opened its operations in Cardiff in 2015, so I wonder if you could set out any implications upon these contractual obligations and agreements, in the context of the difficulties currently being faced by Flybe. Has the Welsh Government considered, or Cardiff Airport considered, any offers of financial incentives to Flybe to attract them to remain operating at Cardiff Airport, for example fees or charges being waived for flying to and from the airport? And can I also ask what contingency plans does the airport have in place on future route losses, and what discussions have you had on other revenue-generating projects that will improve the financial sustainability of Cardiff Airport? I ask this in the context of Cardiff Airport's continued pre-tax losses, which we know have nearly trebled to £18 million and, of course, the other loan that was required of £21 million back in October. I wonder if you could also confirm what was the purpose of that loan of £21 million back in October.

And finally, in the Economy, Infrastructure and Skills Committee last week, you confirmed that the Welsh Government didn't really have an analysis of when the airport would start to make a profit, and you weren't able to rule out any further loans, and you didn't know when the current loan would start to be repaid back. So, in that regard, what assessment do you and your colleague the finance Minister make on the potential risk to the public purse in regard to the state of the loans already made to the airport? Can you just confirm that your assessment that you made last week to the EIS committee remains the same today as well, following the news of Flybe and the concerns around Flybe?

Can I thank Russell George and say at the outset, 'Yes, my assessment today is the same as it was last week, now that the UK Government has saved an airline, just as the Welsh Government, in years gone by, saved an important airport'? And I am delighted that the UK Government is now an interventionist Government, following in the footsteps of the Welsh Government. Discussions take place regularly between the airport directly and Flybe, and the Welsh Government and the airport. Something in the region of 310,000 passengers were carried from and to Cardiff Airport in the last year—that's 310,000 of the 1.7 million, so it has a considerable impact on the airport.

When we carried out due diligence on the offer of the loan, we factored in various scenarios, including the collapse of certain airlines, and we were confident, based on our assessment, that the loss of Flybe would still allow the airport to operate in a viable and sustainable way. However, it would be with much reduced passenger numbers, and we would wish to see passenger numbers continue to grow rather than to fall, and that's why I'm so very pleased by the outcome of the talks that have taken place between the UK Government and the airline.

But the Government at Westminster could do more to assist in terms of the financial incentives that Russell George has asked questions about today. Just as the Welsh Affairs Committee has recommended, the UK Government could devolve air passenger duty to Wales, and the Welsh Government could then make a decision on how it utilises APD in order to incentivise not just the use of Cardiff Airport and routes from it, but also the transition that airlines need to undertake from highly-polluting aircraft to lower-polluting aircraft. We could model an APD regime that allows us to incentivise the use of Cardiff Airport by airlines that operate those lowest-emitting aircraft. 

Further measures that could be undertaken to improve the range of journeys that are undertaken and offered from Cardiff Airport include support for the public service obligation routes that we have proposed to the UK Government, but which to date it has decided not to proceed with recommending to the European Commission. If it would support those public service obligation routes, then a significant increase in passenger numbers would be injected into the business model of the airport.

I am confident—based on a growth in revenue of over 34 per cent in the last year and a positive earnings before interest, tax, depreciation and amortisation for the second year running—that the airport stands in a very strong position. But the whole of the aviation sector right now is going through a difficult period, and that's why it's absolutely right that not just the Welsh Government but the UK Government, as demonstrated by yesterday, stands ready to help the sector.

It's absolutely vital in terms of economic growth. It's vital in terms of providing direct and indirect jobs, such as the 2,500 that Cardiff Airport supports in south Wales. And it's absolutely vital in keeping communities within Wales and the UK better connected than they would otherwise be without those airports. For example, would Anglesey Airport be viable without Cardiff Airport? I very much doubt it, Llywydd. 

I'm glad you've finally got around to discussing or mentioning Anglesey Airport, because Flybe is important to Cardiff Airport because it is a link to a number of important destinations, but Flybe also have flights that begin and end in Wales—the flight between Cardiff and Ynys Môn. And that flight, in itself, has become very important for individuals, for businesses, but also for the governance of Wales, which is very, very important here. Shrinking Wales and making it easier for Government Ministers, as you will well know, to travel to and take a direct interest in what's happening on the ground in other parts of Wales is very, very important and we shouldn't forget that. 

I think many of the questions have been asked already, but I'm eager to know, given the importance of Flybe to Wales, what role you will seek to play now in this review of regional connectivity that UK Government is promising, because we would want that to be an active role. And also, what will you do to increase the urgency of the pursuit of the devolution of APD? We're in agreement that it needs to happen, but how do you use this particular juncture as a way of upping the stakes, if you like, and making the case even stronger for an early move towards devolution of APD? 

Can I thank Rhun ap Iorwerth for his questions? He's absolutely right that we need to be shaping the future of air passenger duty in the UK. And, as part of the review that will be carried out by the UK Government, we would expect them not just to consider how APD is applied but by whom. And what is good for Scotland should surely be good enough for Wales and we should have responsibilities for APD devolved.

I've already written to the UK Government regarding yesterday's announcement, stressing the importance that the Welsh Government is part of the review on regional connectivity and the future of APD. I think the decision of the UK Government demonstrates how APD can be used as an enabler to incentivise passengers not to have to travel great distances in order to board their planes and instead use more local and regional airports. And so we'll be, I would expect, right at the heart of discussions and deliberations over the future of APD. 

And with regard specifically to the Cardiff to Anglesey public service obligation, I'm pleased to say that the PSO would have been unaffected if Flybe had collapsed, because it's Eastern Airways that is contracted to support the route. However, Members will be aware that current bookings for that particular service are made via the Flybe bookings service. So, even though it's Eastern Airways that has a backup bookings system, that would, in all probability, have been switched on without delay had Flybe indeed collapsed. 

The Brexit Party welcomes the intervention by the UK Government to enable the airline Flybe to continue its operations, as we recognise its importance to Cardiff Airport. There are some who seek to criticise the Government for their support for Flybe, pointing out that no such support package was forthcoming to Thomas Cook. However, do you agree there is no huge cash injection from the Government for Flybe? They have simply agreed to defer debt sold for air passenger tax for some three months, said to amount to some £100 million.

And it is also true that a proper analysis of the two companies' operations shows why this intervention is justifiable, in that Flybe is almost exclusively a European and British internal passenger carrier, primarily serving British regional airports, giving these regional airports, including, of course, Cardiff, vital access to UK and European airports. Will you also agree with the assertion that the overall debts of Flybe, being only a tenth of the size of Thomas Cook's, are also small in comparison and, therefore, it has a viable future?

The Flybe operation facilitates not only internal holiday travel but also acts as a vital business link, especially where time is of the essence. A trip from Cardiff to Edinburgh, for instance, is possible in a day by air, but virtually impossible by train or car. Flybe is also crucial to other parts of the UK, which include the Channel Islands, the Isle of Man, Belfast, and New Quay in Cornwall, which all, of course, link into Cardiff in one way or another. Passengers say that other ways of travel are not an option, with one quoting a trip from London to Newquay by train would take some five hours.

Again, returning closer to home, of course Flybe is a crucial airline for Cardiff Airport, being one of its biggest carriers. So, do you agree it is essential from a Welsh perspective to keep the airline in business? The possibility of cutting air passenger duty could also provide a boost for Cardiff.

Can I thank David Rowlands for his questions and his comments? I'd agree that the situation faced by Flybe is very different to the situation that Thomas Cook faced. It's absolutely vital that Flybe was assisted in the way that it appears it has been. We don't know the details of exactly how much APD has been deferred. I've also seen reports suggesting that it's in the region of £100 million. This is not a cash giveaway to Flybe; this is vital support that will give it breathing space and enable the owners to be able to inject capital into the business in order to make it viable for the long term. 

It's a rather interesting fact that there has never been a year in the history of passenger aviation in which the aviation industry has actually made a profit on the whole. Every single year sees winners and losers, sees losses and profits, but not in a single year has there been a net profit within the passenger aviation history. That shows how difficult an area of activity passenger aviation is. It shows how competitive it is as well. And it also demonstrates why intervention is, sometimes, required by Governments. 

It's also interesting that, generally, I think British people believe that airports should be in private ownership and only in the hands of private owners, but the fact of the matter is that 86 per cent of the world's airports where passengers are able to fly in and out of are owned by the public sector, and 14 per cent have a private interest in them. It demonstrates, therefore, why the Welsh Government again was right to save Cardiff Airport and maintain its interests in this crucially important piece of infrastructure.

With regard to the support offered to Flybe, it will enable that particular airline to offer services, not just in terms of flights from the UK to Europe, but also flights that ensure communities within Britain are better connected with one another, to ensure that people from more distant parts of the UK are able to travel long haul from our key strategic hubs like Manchester, Heathrow and other major airports. It's absolutely vital, I think, that as we consider the future of air passenger duty, we do so in a way that shows respect to devolved functions and the ability of the Welsh Government to utilise APD in order to inspire and support further growth at Cardiff Airport.

Thank you, Minister. 

The next item is the 90-second statements. The first one is from Leanne Wood.

Wayne Warren, a 57-year-old roofer from Treherbert, became the oldest winner in the history of the BDO world darts championship when he beat fellow Welshman Jim Williams 7-4 on the weekend. The Rhondda has already produced a BDO world champion in Cwmparc's Richie Burnett, so now we have two.

Back in 2001, Wayne believed that he would never play darts again after suffering burns to his upper body and spending 10 days in a hospital burns unit. Nearly two decades after that horrendous incident, he's been crowned a world champion. Wayne's use of the ddraig goch on his flights has assured recognition for our country as well as for the Rhondda.

Playing darts can have benefits, including improved hand to eye co-ordination, strategic thinking and mathematical skills. It's also, of course, a great excuse to get out of the house and socialise and support your local club or pub.

So, I'd just like to say, 'Diolch yn fawr iawn, Wayne Warren', for showing what is possible with determination, dedication and ambition. Diolch also to the other Rhondda darts players like Richie Burnett, Alan Evans, who's also known as 'The Rhondda Legend', and the many others who have brought recognition to the Rhondda and to Wales through the medium of darts. Tidy darts.

There I was, listening to Stormzy on the recommendation of Rhun ap Iorwerth, when an artist more familiar to me came to the attention of the charts. I would like to congratulate my constituent Dafydd Iwan for topping the iTunes chart with his iconic anthem 'Yma o Hyd'. Dafydd's success is a happy marriage between the old rocker and the thriving young YesCymru movement. Dafydd shares the same values as those who successfully elevated him to the top of the charts. Nobody has been as effective as Dafydd in safeguarding our nation and handing it on to the care of the younger generation. 'Yma o Hyd' was recorded on the Sain label in 1981. A company from Llandwrog in my constituency was responsible for that, and it's great to see Sain's contribution to the music scene in Wales getting international recognition. This publicity is an invaluable prelude as we approach Welsh Language Music Day on 7 February. This is a day when the Welsh language and Welsh music come together to promote our culture, and although we may not hear many protest songs next month, we can take comfort that the words from 'Yma o Hyd' are as relevant today as they were nearly 40 years ago.

The second 90-second statement today is about a Welsh darts player—who would've thought it? This Friday, 17 January, would have been the eightieth birthday of Leighton Rees. Leighton was born in Ynysybwl, the village where he spent much of his life. After school, he worked for a motor spares company, and during this time, he took up darts. He was a regular for his pub and county, and then found fame playing the sport on a wider stage in the 1970s.

Television beckoned. He took part in Yorkshire tv’s The Indoor League, the only player to win the darts tournament element twice. Indeed, such was the fame and name of the Ynysybwl competitor, nicknamed 'Marathon Man', that he turned professional in 1976. The inaugural World Darts Federation World Cup in 1977 featured Leighton as part of the triumphant Welsh team that clinched first prize. Leighton also won the singles tournament. The following year, he triumphed at the initial Embassy world professional darts championship in Nottingham.

After being ranked as world No. 1, his career experienced something of a decline, yet Leighton remained one of darts' most popular competitors. His matches nearly always resulted in full arenas. He enjoyed success on tv's Bullseye, and he is credited for helping to make darts a popular tv entertainment, and he was also a much-loved and respected local figure. A street, Leighton Rees Close in Ynysybwl, was named after him. Leighton died in 2003 aged 63, but the legend of the 'Marathon Man' lives on.

Thank you.

Item 5 on the agenda is a debate on the Finance Committee report, an inquiry into the Welsh Government's capital funding sources, and I call on the Chair of the committee to move the motion—Llyr Gruffydd. 

Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer. I'm very pleased to be speaking in this debate today on the Finance Committee’s inquiry into the Welsh Government’s capital funding sources. As Chair of the committee, I would like to take this opportunity to thank all those who contributed to this inquiry and to the Minister for Finance and Trefnydd also for her response to our report. The committee welcomes the fact that the Minister, in her response, has accepted all of the recommendations in the report.

Under the Wales Act 2017 and accompanying fiscal framework, Welsh Government currently has an annual capital borrowing limit of £150 million. In June last year, the Minister announced a capital investment package of £85 million, then on 4 November, she announced a further funding of £130 million for key capital investments, and that included £53 million to support businesses in the face of Brexit and to provide extra investment for future developments, such as housing and active travel. Accompanying this announcement was the publication of an updated version of the Wales Infrastructure Investment Plan.

Now, the annual report by Welsh Ministers about the implementation and operation of Part 2—finance—of the Wales Act 2014 was published in December last year. It makes reference to the Welsh Government’s capital borrowing and it states—and I quote—that,

'The take-up of planned borrowing will be carefully considered during each budget period and will only be used when all available conventional, cheaper sources of capital financing have been exhausted.'

The Finance Committee undertook this inquiry to establish how the Welsh Government is using the funding streams available to it, the effectiveness of Welsh Government’s funding strategy and the benefits and risks of specific funding models, in particular the mutual investment model, or the MIM, as we know it through the English acronym.

The nature of the Welsh Government’s capital budget has changed in recent years as the UK Government has placed greater restrictions on the use of capital through the introduction of financial transactions capital. In 2019-20, 14.2 per cent of the Welsh Government’s capital budget was in the form of financial transactions capital. It is only for loan and equity investments in the private sector that this form of capital can be used and it must be repaid to HM Treasury.

In her evidence to the inquiry, the Minister noted that the Welsh Government has to pay back 80 per cent of the total financial transactions capital allocated by HM Treasury. This provides Welsh Government with the opportunity to provide interest-free loans or very low interest loans to the private sector to invest in relevant infrastructure, for example, housing projects.

The committee felt that the evidence received from stakeholders demonstrated the need for the Welsh Government to consider how financial transactions capital could be better used to support housing providers and also how local government capital borrowing powers could be used more effectively. This is particularly important given the evidence that capital infrastructure is deteriorating, and the committee recommended that the Welsh Government works closer with local government to deliver a more integrated approach to delivering infrastructure investment at a national and local level.

During the course of the inquiry, one of the key themes that emerged was the need for Welsh Government to plan for the longer term and to match funding sources to projects in order to provide a clearer picture of how much capital borrowing will be required in the future.

The committee welcomes the revised WIIP, given that it provides further details on the proposed infrastructure investments by the Welsh Government. However, during the inquiry, stakeholders highlighted the lack of clarity on how the Welsh Government currently prioritises projects at present. One witness suggested that any long-term investment plan should be published in full. The Minister did inform the committee that the Welsh Government has set up a National Infrastructure Commission for Wales to have that longer term view, looking five to 30 years ahead. According to the Minister, this group will be making recommendations on economic and environmental infrastructure needs in the longer term across Wales. In her response to our report, the Minister added that the Welsh Government would be responding to the new commission’s recommendations following the publication of its first report in 2021 and will be looking at how this can influence the Welsh Government’s approach to borrowing.

The committee heard evidence that risk varies across a project’s lifecycle and that the highest risk is in the construction phase. The risk should be assessed at each stage of the project and consideration should be given to matching funding sources to project risk at each stage. The committee believes that this would provide a more effective way of allocating funding than the Welsh Government’s current preferred method, namely to use the cheapest source of borrowing first that would also enable the Government to maximise available capital while minimising financing costs.

The inquiry also included a substantial amount of evidence comparing and contrasting private finance initiatives first introduced by the UK Government in 1992, and the mutual investment model, the MIM I mentioned earlier, which was recently developed by the Welsh Government to provide more than £1 billion to finance public infrastructure in Wales. The MIM is based on the non-profit distributing model of the Scottish Government and the Welsh Government worked closely with the Office for National Statistics and the European Investment Bank to develop the new model with the aim of ensuring that no debt liability is recorded on the Government’s balance sheet. This should mean that it will not be included in the Welsh Government’s capital borrowing limits and should provide Welsh Government with an independent borrowing stream.

The comparative analysis suggested that MIM represents an improvement on aspects such as community benefits and oversight of project contracts, but it is difficult to ascertain a significant difference between the two models. In particular, it is unclear how MIM minimises financing costs or how it offers greater value for money than previous PFI models.

One of the suggested benefits of MIM highlighted in the inquiry was the opportunity for the public sector to take up to 20 per cent of the total equity in a project and therefore a share in any returns. Taking equity in a project would also allow the public sector to have a representative on the project board as a shareholder and this would give the public sector the opportunity to influence project decisions. However, the committee felt concerned that the existing governance arrangements might not be sufficiently robust to effectively mitigate potential conflicts of interest that may arise as a result of Welsh Government being both a shareholder and a client.

We heard evidence that while the development of the MIM model attempted to address some of the issues around the complexity and inflexibility of PFI contracts, MIM contracts remain complex and reasonably rigid according to witnesses. The committee recommended that the Welsh Government reviews the level of expertise in place for managing these contracts periodically to maintain this expertise and ensure effective delivery throughout the lifecycle of any MIM projects.

Evidence also suggested that careful consideration should be given to the selection of projects to be delivered through MIM. Projects with complex requirements, high-tech assets or innovative projects are not deemed appropriate to deliver through MIM. Projects that are considered to be stable over time such as the building of roads, schools and hospitals are more appropriate for MIM funding. The committee was satisfied that appropriate projects had been chosen to be delivered through MIM and recommended that the Welsh Government continues to use MIM to fund projects that require continuity over the lifetime of the contract and where the private sector can deliver the greatest value for money.

Several other finance models were highlighted as part of the committee’s inquiry and Members believe that Welsh Government should continue to explore alternative methods of financing in order to be more innovative with the funding available and to unlock further private investment for capital projects in Wales.

Finally, the Welsh Government also told us that it was seeking prudential borrowing powers to support its capital infrastructure programme and the majority of committee members agreed that the Welsh Government should continue to petition for these powers.

I have run through the report very quickly. I'm looking forward to hearing the comments of Members and, of course, the response of the Minister. Thank you. 

While alchemists wanted to turn base metal into gold, politicians want to get private money cheaply into public projects, thus avoiding falling foul of the public sector borrowing requirement and being capped by the Treasury. The latest attempt in Wales is the mutual investment model that levers in private capital to support public sector projects. When launching the mutual investment model the now First Minister, when he was Finance Minister, said:

'The mutual investment model includes important obligatory long-term provisions to secure community benefits, to create apprenticeships and training places for Welsh workers and for sustainable development, in which the private sector partner supports delivery of the well-being of future generations Act. It incorporates our commitment to an ethical employment code and allows us to maximise the benefits of our sustainable procurement practices. The model also enables the Government to exert influence over the chosen private partner to ensure that the public interest is protected. Where we invest in schemes, this influence will be exercised by a public interest director, and this is an important advance on what has been secured in other public-private partnership models in other parts of the United Kingdom. This ensures robust transparency in terms of access to board-level information, alongside a range of reserved matters to protect public funds and the public interest.'

All the above will come with a cost. The private sector will factor in the cost of all these nice things we've added when they put in the price. What you're doing is you're paying for it, and I think that sometimes, we seem to think that the private sector's going to give us something for nothing. They don't. They're interested in making a profit—that's not a criticism of them, but that is what they're interested in doing. You can ask them to do anything whatsoever and they will. What they will do, though, is make you pay for it.

The current Finance Minister said in Plenary in February 2019:

'From the outset, our intention has always been to ensure that the mutual investment model promotes the public interest in the widest possible definition of that term. To that end, the model will deliver positive, additional outcomes in relation to well-being, value for money and transparency, and in doing so will avoid many of the criticisms levied at historic forms of public-private partnership—in some cases, criticisms that the Welsh Government was among the first to raise. For example, you'll recall that successive Welsh Governments have criticised the now discredited form of PFI....In relation to well-being, private partners with whom we contract using the mutual investment model will be obliged to help the Government deliver the objectives of the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015. They will need to deliver stretching community benefits, with penalties for non-delivery.'

So, if there's a penalty for non-delivery, what are they going to do? They're going to factor in the penalty, because it's inevitable. They're not charities; they're doing this to make money. Every time you put anything like that in, you're going to pay a price for it.

'They will need to adopt the code of practice for ethical employment in supply chains. And they will need to build our infrastructure with long-term sustainability and environmental efficiency in mind....We've also developed a new project assurance tool that all MIM schemes will be subject to—commercial approval point checks. We have run two of these checks on the dualling of the A465. These checks have been supported by experts from the European Investment Bank and the UK Infrastructure and Projects Authority. I am convinced that rigorous investment appraisal, coupled with robust project assurance delivered by undoubted experts, will result not only in a better understanding of the risks involved in the delivery of major infrastructure projects, but also in a more credible appreciation of the value for money of such projects, and their affordability.'

Well, if the dualling of the A465 shows the success of this financial model I am not sure what failure would look like. Whatever you think of the A465—and I'm sure my colleague, Alun Davies, may well mention it later on—financially, it has not been particularly successful.

'To increase the value for money of our schemes, we have taken a conscious decision not to use the mutual investment model to finance soft services, such as cleaning and catering, which was one of the major criticisms of previous PFI contracts, and nor will it be used to finance capital equipment.

'With regard to transparency, the Government intends to invest a small amount of risk capital in each scheme, ensuring that the public sector participates in any return on investment.'

The return on investment is getting some of your own money back. If it makes £1 million profit, if you've got 20 per cent of it, you get £200,000 of the profit, and the other £800,000 goes to the people involved. You're buying your own profit.

'This shareholding will be managed by a director appointed under the direction of Welsh Ministers onto the boards of those companies delivering our assets.'

Should we really be reassured if dualling the A465 shows the success of this financial model? My concern is, when you strip away all the warm words, what is being done is paying for private capital over a long period of time. Those providing the capital will be looking for a rate of return higher than the cost of borrowing for local authorities, and will also be looking to minimise their risk.

Whilst the worst excesses of PFI—such as not financing soft services and capital equipment charges, such as £20 to change a light bulb—will not occur, it's still a long-term commitment that will have an effect on revenue budgets for decades. For schools it would be cheaper for the Welsh Government to fund local authority borrowing to pay via the aggregate of external finance for the building of the schools, and let them borrow from the Public Works Loan Board.

Until we know the final cost of the projects we don't know much it's going to cost, but finally, Deputy Presiding Officer, really, you've got to be very careful, because it's long-term costs for short-term gain.

Can I thank the members of the Finance Committee for allowing me to intrude on this debate on behalf of the Welsh Conservatives? I have read with great interest the report that you have produced, and I can see that it's a very thorough piece of work, so I want to commend you all and, indeed, the clerks who have supported you through the process.

Having read the report, very clearly, there are some key recommendations in there that the Welsh Government has responded very positively to, and I'm pleased to see that. It is clear, I think, that the Welsh Government needs to plan its infrastructure investment in a more long-term way in the future in order that we can get some more consistency and a coherent approach to economic development, rather than what I think the report has identified as a sort of piecemeal approach in the past in terms of the way that capital has sometimes been invested.

And, of course, we're nearing the end of the 10-year Wales infrastructure investment plan, and I know that Ministers are working on the next 10-year plan, and I think that this report usefully makes some very decent recommendations as to how that plan might be developed in the future. Of course, we know that the Government has identified a number of different priorities, we've got the climate change emergency as well, which has been declared, and we also know that there is a certain level of uncertainty, I'll acknowledge that, in terms of the way that the UK Government's shared prosperity fund might work.

Now, one of the things that was a key project from the Wales infrastructure investment plan, of course, was the M4 relief road. It was dropped because of the climate change emergency, we are told, but we don't see any proposals at the moment coming forward for green infrastructure in terms of—

Thank you for giving way. He said it was dropped due to the climate change emergency, but does he recall that the nine or 10-page decision notice didn't mention climate change once?

I do, but I was referring to the rationale of the First Minister, in terms of the First Minister's rationale for rejecting the proposal. We all know, of course, that the independent inspector recommended that the route be progressed. But the point I'm making is that you have to match your infrastructure investment plans with the stated priorities and aims of the Government, and I don't think we've necessarily seen those things joined up in the past, and we have an opportunity, I think, to do so if some of the recommendations in this report are to be implemented. 

I also note, and have reflected on the fact, that this statement has been made by the Welsh Government that you always seek to exhaust all of the cheaper sources of finance before you go on to, perhaps, the more expensive sources of finance. Now, that sounds a very reasonable approach, unless and until you start building risk into the process. And, of course, this is some of the talk that came through in the oral evidence sessions, in particular from KPMG and others, with reference to PFI and the mutual investment model, because when you can share that risk with the private sector, it very often makes sense, even though it might be a more expensive way to borrow. So I think that the Government should reflect on the evidence that came in from the committee about the sort of policy that it appears to have adopted in terms of its reluctance to engage with financing from private sources, because I think, very often—. Yes, we've seen some bad examples of PFI, but there are some good ones out there as well and we shouldn't ignore the fact that there have been some successful PFI operations, and I think that the mutual investment model has the opportunity, potentially, to demonstrate a different approach that does deliver better value for money in a way that those PFI initiatives of the past may not always have done.

Can you name a PFI scheme that, over its lifetime, has been value for money?

I can point to examples in Conwy where new schools were built that were absolutely and have been value for money. I can also point to the investment that has gone into Colwyn Bay in my own constituency from Conwy County Borough Council in the investment in its new headquarters, which has been a partnership with the private sector, which seems to be demonstrating value for money. But I can also point to some very bad examples as well of PFI initiatives where, clearly, the taxpayer appears to be getting a raw deal. You mentioned the Heads of the Valleys road, and we all know that the control over capital expenditure has been problematic with some of the Welsh Government's projects, and I think it is imperative that we all, in this National Assembly, hold the Welsh Government to account where things have gone wrong. But I want to commend the report to the National Assembly, and I'm very pleased to see that the Government has responded positively to the recommendations in it. 

I won't speak for too long. Most of the important points have already been covered by the committee Chair, but this was an important inquiry, I think, because we are talking here about a means of unlocking Wales’s potential. We're talking about one of the key ways of bringing us out of the rut that we've been in as a nation.

Investment in Welsh infrastructure is crucially important for the future: infrastructure in order to deliver better public services, including education; infrastructure to connect Wales in order to generate and share prosperity across the county; digital infrastructure to ensure that Wales can play its full part in the twenty-first century and beyond; and, of course, in face of the climate emergency, the green infrastructure to make us fit to respond to that climate emergency. We need capital funding, of course, in order to be able to deliver that, and it’s good to see it when capital funding is available for allocation within annual budgets, but that isn't enough as we look at how we undo the impacts of many years of a lack of investment in infrastructure in Wales.

We need large sums, and, in order to unlock that money, then we do need to be creative in doing so. And what we as a committee did, as we've already heard, is to look across a range of models and to identify real scope for investment in our future in ways that we haven't been utilising in the past. And, as the Chair said, we are very open minded as a committee about the scope to consider new, alternative models of funding investment—models that we haven't yet been able to properly refine.

So, as the recommendations state, we need to plan carefully for the long term, how we prioritise investment. We need to have a clear picture of the challenges and barriers that we are seeking to overcome, and how the plans that are developed respond to those challenges. We need to select appropriate financing models for the appropriate situations, as we've heard mentioned already—collaboration with local government, for example, in terms of choosing the appropriate models, and also ensuring that the model selected does reflect the risk, as has been mentioned by other committee members, and the various types and levels of risks attached to different projects.

I think that was one of the major problems with PFI schemes in the past. There was, without doubt, some rewarding of private investors where the risk taken, if truth be told, was very low indeed. Mike Hedges has made reference to some of those contracts that rewarded the soft elements of those contracts very generously. We can't do that, and as we move towards alternative models—MIM, for example—then we must be much more sophisticated in terms of how those contracts and agreements are drawn up, and that does mean investment in skills that will bring the best value for the public purse in drawing up contracts in effective and efficient ways.

But I will finish with this point: one thing that we do have to be willing to do is to borrow and to invest over and above what’s been done in the past. The percentage of the Welsh budget used to make borrowing repayments is far too low—let’s speak plainly. We do have to be in a position where we can unlock capital, ensure reasonably what percentage of our budget we are happy and comfortable in using to repay those borrowings, in order to move towards an infrastructure system that we can be confident in, that will provide us with an opportunity to deliver the potential that we haven't done in the past. This Government should be banging on the Downing Street door on a daily basis, insisting on these powers, so that we can invest in this way. But at least now, and with the Government having agreed to these recommendations, I do think that there is ambition developing jointly in order to unlock our potential.

We have too rather seductive, ostensibly competing, phrases from the First Minister: we should use the cheapest funding first—sounds very sensible—and then the committee says that we should match funding sources to projects, which also seems very sensible. But, usually, in the private sector, when people talk about matching funding to projects, they match high-risk, high-return funding to projects where the risk is high, and, similarly, with low-return low funding. But, actually, in the evidence our committee took, what was proposed to us was the reverse. Gerry Holtham was saying that it was very important that if there was a high-risk project, you borrowed for it, effectively, through gilts because you'd pay very little for covering a high risk. If you were to go to alternative sources—potentially the private sector, whether MIM or otherwise—you should do it where the private sector would have relatively low rates compared to other projects it might fund.

In that scenario, the Government accepts our recommendation, but I'm not really sure that this issue has been resolved, because, at the moment, there's no real requirement for it to be, because there's no sign that we're pushing up against these borrowing limits of £150 million a year or £1 billion in total, despite them being relatively low as a proportion of Welsh Government revenue at 1 per cent and a little less than 7 per cent.

So, when we talk about MIM and compare it to PFI, I think what's important is that we don't use MIM in the way that PFI was used, at least at some points in the past, essentially to disguise borrowing and push Government borrowing off balance sheets in order to get around Treasury rules to have capital things, which you wouldn't otherwise have, when the cost of that is much worse because, effectively, you're paying the private sector to borrow for you at significantly higher rates and then paying them back with a profit margin. That doesn't make any sense.

We should go to the private sector when they have an expertise or they're better at doing something than the public sector would be directly, or, in some cases, we may want to have a partnership consortium approach, where the public and private sectors bring different skills and abilities. If the public sector's there and owns part of a project, the private sector will be much more reassured of the public sector's commitment to it, particularly in things like planning and regulation, where having the understanding and support of the public sector can be very important to the private sector.

I think, in some circumstances, it would be good for the Government to have a seat on the board, possibly a shareholding in a project—it may get more information flow and that's a positive. Sometimes, when you're combining skills and talents that's definitely the way you'd want to go, but it's no silver bullet when you're just contracting with the private sector because you want something and you're paying the private sector for it.

If you're a shareholder in it, you'll mitigate those conflicts a bit, but you don't resolve the issue that the public sector is paying for something it wants and the private sector is providing it in order to make a profit—you just mitigate that at the margin and there'll still be conflicts we have to be very careful in managing. What I think is very important is to have someone who's responsible within the public sector, whether a Minister or a named official, for a long, complex project, who has ownership of it and understands that contract management throughout the project's length.

Now, when we did this report, we talked about prudential borrowing and supporting that, but I was concerned that prudential borrowing meant limitless borrowing, at least potentially. The finance Minister said in evidence for this report that

'it should be for us to set that limit, but we would do so in discussion with the National Assembly.'

I'm concerned that that's an extraordinarily radical demand that we, in Wales, should be able to borrow as much as we want and it's nothing to do with the UK Government. Any US state has to have a balanced budget. In the European Union, we see—whether it's Italy, Germany or Spain, they have to agree their borrowing with the European Commission and can have enforcement action or fines if they borrow more than EU law allows. Similarly, here, I don't think it's realistic for the Welsh Government to be able to borrow whatever it wants whilst sharing a polity and a currency in the UK. Even when the Scottish Government—[Interruption.]—I'd like to continue, as I have very little time—was trying to go for independence, it, then, had to resolve the issue of how you agree borrowing while sharing a currency. Either it's the currency board, and you've no lender of last resort, or you need to deal with the remainder of the UK.

So, in this case, I was encouraged by the Minister's evidence this morning, where the priority of the Welsh Government seems to be to negotiate a higher limit on the borrowing and the debt with the UK Government. Given how low the limits are now, that's something I would support, and I would hope to see support across the Chamber, and that's a realistic objective, whereas having limitless borrowing with absolutely no control is not a realistic objective. Thank you.

Like others, I'd like to thank the committee secretariat and the committee Chair for the work that they did in supporting the committee in this investigation. I'd also like to thank the Minister for accepting all of the committee's recommendations. I think it's a very welcome thing to see Government accepting recommendations like this.

I think it's right and proper that the use of borrowing powers that were conferred on the Welsh Government by the 2014 and the 2017 Acts is subject to some scrutiny. The investigation I believe has demonstrated that whilst the overall strategic approach that is being taken by the Welsh Government is a good and effective approach to maximising the public value of capital funding sources available to it, there is at the same time a need to be more agile and perhaps more intelligent in the medium and long-term planning for the management of this funding.

I was pleased to see that most witnesses felt that the Welsh infrastructure investment plan was a good innovation. Many people suggested that there were improvements that could be made to it, but it was in itself seen as an established part of the overall funding framework operated by the Welsh Government, and I think that's an important consideration for us to look at in debating and discussing how the Welsh Government is managing capital funding opportunities.

But overwhelmingly for me, Deputy Presiding Officer—the key finding of the committee was that the Welsh Government does need to be more far-sighted in its management of the capital investment programme. Professor Holtham has already been quoted this afternoon, and I felt that he did put this well—that planning needs to be in the longer term, understanding risk in a more profound way. And I think that's a really important finding for this committee. Other Members this afternoon have discussed the same point in different ways, and it has been too easy for too long for Welsh Government and for Ministers simply to say, 'We'll use the cheapest source now and we'll do this over this term and over that term', rather than looking at how you manage capital expenditure over a much longer term, and then match the risk involved to the capital available. I'm glad to see that the Minister didn't take too ideological an approach to some of these matters, and that she took a ruthlessly pragmatic approach to how we deal with these issues. And I think that's a very good approach to take.

I will say that, whilst I find the new MIM scheme being proposed by Government certainly an improvement on earlier models, it is still a PFI model; I think we're only fooling ourselves if we believe it's anything different. It is PFI. I don't see how it can be argued that it isn't, but I do agree with the Government that it is right and proper that we match this sort of funding to particular projects. It will be the best form of funding for some of our capital programme but not for all of our capital programme, and I certainly agree with what's been said about the soft services where we do not wish to see the privatisation of large parts of the public sphere.

Can I just finish on one point that hasn't been addressed by speakers in this debate so far, and that is how the Welsh Government manages its assets? I have to say that I'm not convinced—and, in fact, I never have been convinced in the 13 years I've been here—that the Welsh Government has a firm grip on the management of the assets in its ownership and control. I'm constantly surprised to discover that the Welsh Government owns a shop in Ebbw Vale or is a landlord of a block of flats in Ebbw Vale, or wherever, and owns property all over the place. I've never been convinced by any Minister, either in Government or out of Government, that the Government understands what it owns, the value of what it owns and how it best manages its assets across the whole face of Government. And I do believe that this is something that the Government needs to address with more seriousness. In the past, Ministers have simply seen asset management as a means of selling off offices in various parts of the country; we've seen that happen at different times over the last few years. But I hope that in the future the Welsh Government will see its assets as a valuable part, not just of the public estate in Wales, but in the public sphere, and as a more intelligent and far-sighted approach to the management of its assets, whether that is involved in realising or liquidising those assets, or using those assets in a more profound way to deliver on its policy outlook. But I think, overall, this is a report that seeks to be very positive and I think the committee itself is very positive in its approach. I'm very pleased that the Government has sought to accept all the recommendations of the committee.

Thank you. Can I now call the Minister for Finance and Trefnydd, Rebecca Evans? 

Thank you. I'm pleased to respond to today's debate and I'm very grateful to the Finance Committee for their consideration of this important issue and for their report, and I'm also really pleased, as we've heard, to be able to accept all of the recommendations made by the committee.

I think it's worth beginning by reflecting on the financial context that has shaped our investment plans with regard to capital over the decade. In 2010-11 we were facing significant cuts to our capital budgets as a result of the UK Government's policy of austerity, and while continuing to call on the UK Government to reverse its planned cuts, we did explore every avenue and took every opportunity to maximise our capital spending power to maintain vital capital investment to stimulate and grow the economy and to protect jobs.

In 2012 we published the Wales infrastructure investment plan, which set out our plans to use existing capital resources, secure additional sources of funding, and also use new, innovative forms of finance to increase the level of capital available to us and to make the best use of all of our resources to deliver our infrastructure investment priorities. I'm really proud of what we've achieved so far. So, since we've published the WIIP, we have allocated more than £15 billion, generated a further £2 billion as a result of our innovative finance initiatives, and also, of course, secured those new borrowing powers.

Despite recent steps by the UK Government to increase capital spending, our capital budget on a like-for-like basis in 2021 is still £100 million lower than it was at the start of the decade in real terms, and, of course, the policy landscape is also changing and we can't lose sight of the challenges that we'll need to address and those challenges that will shape our approach to infrastructure investment over the longer term.

So, we face opportunities as well as challenges in terms of the ageing and changing population, the advances in technology impacting on the future of our economy, where we live and how we travel, and we also obviously urgently need to tackle the climate change agenda and the decline in biodiversity, and that does require a new approach.

In the draft budget, I've set out a broad range of measures to respond to the climate emergency, and it's against this backdrop that we're committed to continuing to do all that we can to boost the resources available and maximise our capital levers to support a more equal, more prosperous and greener Wales.

Developing the successive to the WIIP over the coming years provides us with an opportunity to set out the strategic priorities to drive investment decision-making, whilst retaining the flexibility to meet the scale and pace of change that infrastructure investment will require.

A constant tension that we face is between the need to provide that long-term certainty and also the time-limited financial settlements that we receive from the UK Government. But despite the constraints we face, we are providing that longer term certainty where we can, and that, of course, includes our twenty-first century schools and colleges programme, which we started in 2012 and which will see anticipated investment of £2.3 billion across Wales, supporting an estimated 200 projects to rebuild and refurbish schools and colleges.

Capital investments and infrastructure investments in particular by their very nature have comparatively long lead-in times, which does require a great deal of long-term planning. The life span of the assets delivered through infrastructure investment also means that a long-term view of the services they deliver is also crucial, and we have to design those in such a way that maximises their impact over decades. Understanding the need to provide that longer term basis for infrastructure planning, we're exploring opportunities to understand more clearly what our capital requirements could be in future, utilising a range of scenario modelling for our block grant funding to identify the most appropriate opportunities to utilise borrowing and deploy private finance.

We recognise that should there be a need for borrowing beyond the £1 billion currently available, then the matching of funding sources to project risk across a project's life-cycle is a really important factor to consider, and I think the point has been made in the debate that, currently, the cost of finance that we access via the national loans fund currently isn't dependent on project risk. The cost is the same regardless of the project. But as and when more financial levers do become available to us and we have additional sources of funding, there will be opportunities there to maximise the potential mix of funding that we would seek to deploy.

We recognise that, as a rule, our approach has been to use the cheapest sources of funding first, and that does allow us to make significant investment in Wales that could otherwise not be afforded in the current fiscal climate, and we will review this approach as part of the developments on the successor to the current WIIP.

I welcome the committee's recognition of the work that the Welsh Government already undertakes in utilising the financial transactions capital funding, including the £520 million Help to Buy scheme and the range of business funds that are delivered through the Development Bank of Wales.

I've set out in this Chamber before the challenges that we face in effectively deploying this type of funding, but we do remain committed to using every pound available to invest in infrastructure and boost economic growth in the long term. We're working with the UK Government and the other devolved administrations to share best practice and examples of how financial transactions are being utilised. We're also working with our registered social landlord partners to explore the development of schemes providing RSLs with a mix of grant funding and financial transactions capital finance loans, and that will help them reduce the need to access private finance at a higher cost. I think that's a really innovative way of looking at the potential use of financial transactions capital and does very much respond, I think, to one of the areas of interest that the committee had during its inquiry.

Also, on the point of utilising our own assets in a better way, I recognise the importance of that, which is why we've set up the Welsh Government land division. So, in the first instance, we'll be looking at the land that Welsh Government owns and exploring how we can deploy that and use it in a better way in future, in a way that helps us respond to our interests right across Government. So, our particular interest in the first instance is how we can use Welsh Government land with a view to increasing the supply of social housing across Wales. But this is just the start, and I do think there are greater opportunities ahead of us through the land division and the work that that's doing, but also the way in which we can then demonstrate leadership for other parts of the public sector to utilise their assets in a way that looks at the value beyond just the monetary value and looks to see what else they can deliver.

I note and welcome the committee's recommendations concerning our work on the mutual investment model. The Welsh Government shares the committee's recognition of the importance of increasing transparency, and we've developed the MIM with this principle very much in mind. We've ensured that reporting requirements are embedded within the model's design and will be incorporated as contractual commitments into our agreements. The public sector will also be entitled to nominate a director onto the board of the project companies that are delivering those MIM schemes, ensuring that the public interest has influence there.

All MIM schemes will be required to use the five-case model for the development of the requisite business cases, and this means affordability and value for money must be assessed before proceeding with a project. Furthermore, all schemes are subject to a rigorous tier of additional scrutiny using our commercial approval point reviews.

We're also ensuring that efficient contract management is in place to oversee these schemes, and we intend to establish a MIM contract management function prior to the first MIM scheme starting construction in 2020. At that point, I should clarify that the MIM scheme is being used to finance sections 5 and 6 of the A465 and it hasn't been used for previous sections of that road. We would expect or anticipate a successful participant for sections 5 and 6 to be announced in quarter 2 of 2020. This scheme has been prioritised because it promises economic benefits to some of the most deprived parts of Wales.

I can see that I'm running out of time, but I do note the committee's recommendation to continue to use the MIM where appropriate.

Looking to the future, the Chancellor has announced the UK budget will be on 11 March, and we expect the UK Government will publish its national infrastructure strategy, including the finance review, at that time. In the Chamber last week, I committed to reflecting any significant changes in our plans for next year in an early supplementary budget, and I will obviously consider the implications of the strategy in developing our infrastructure investment plan. So, I'm very happy to support the motion this afternoon, and put on record again my thanks to the committee and all Members who've contributed in the debate.

Thank you. Can I call on Llyr Gruffydd to reply to the debate?

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Can I thank everyone for their contributions to this debate? I think Mike probably captured a sentiment that's run like a silver lining through this inquiry, in that the private sector won't give us anything for nothing. But we are going into that with our eyes open, aren't we? And we are aware of that much.

I think this tension between PFI and MIM is—I'm not too keen on acronyms, but there we are—is MIM that different to PFI? I think it's questionable. I referred in my opening remarks, I think, to some benefits, but then again there are a number of elements that are still very similar. And I think the point made by Mark Reckless, that MIM might be used to disguise Welsh borrowing—and of course it costs more to utilise that borrowing through the private sector—is something that I think we are very much awake to.

The long-term pipeline points that, again, run through the report and the debate is a point that Darren highlighted again, and it does give a greater clarity when you have that clear pipeline of infrastructure projects ahead, and that does help to bring greater options in terms of investment to the table. It is that balance between the cheapest borrowing and where the risks are a factor that comes into it, because when you can share risk, even if it is slightly more expensive, then it might make more sense to utilise it that way.

Rhun reminded us, of course, that this is an ongoing process where we need to be constantly revising and developing models, and we need to be awake to those opportunities and we need to be flexible enough to utilise some of those opportunities. But of course, we need to be responsible as well in doing so, and that brings me to the prudential borrowing element that was touched upon. We'd all have a view as to what constraints should or shouldn't be placed on Welsh Government borrowing, but the bottom line is, of course, that no Government should borrow more than it's able to afford.

Now, I'm grateful to Alun Davies—[Interruption.] Go on, then, Mike.

Setting the amount we borrow doesn't deal with how much you can afford. It's how much you're paying back is the important bit, isn't it?

It is indeed, and we're all aware that borrowing has a cost to it, and that's exactly what we need to be mindful of. But of course, if it's good enough for local government then I can't see why it isn't good enough for Welsh Government, as long as it's done in the proper way.

Alun Davies reminded us, or questioned the way that Welsh Government has been managing its assets, and I remember, I think, Professor Holtham telling us in committee, and maybe I'm paraphrasing here, that if it's worth more to someone else, and it's not so important to the Welsh Government as an asset, then why not release the value of that to invest elsewhere. Certainly, it's something that I think we need to get better at doing.

And the Minister, of course, is right to say that the Welsh Government has been operating in a very difficult climate, with cuts to the capital budget through austerity meaning that the Government has had to be nimble and creative. But of course the Institute for Fiscal Studies reminded us, or suggested to us in committee this morning, that the increased budget we've seen this year and next year might just be a lull in the storm, so we may need to be just as nimble and creative in future years as well.

I'm very grateful to the Welsh Government for accepting all the committee's recommendations, but of course we don't stand still, do we? There is, I think, a degree of consensus around our report, and that reflects a keenness by Members to be creative but to continuously evolve these models that are open to us. And in that sort of constructive spirit we look forward to continuing to be a critical friend of Welsh Government when it comes to scrutinising capital funding sources. Diolch.

Thank you very much. The proposal is to note the committee's report. Does any Member object? No, therefore the motion is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Item 6 on our agenda is the debate on the Culture, Welsh Language and Communications Committee report, 'Teaching Welsh History', and I call on the Chair of the committee to move the motion, Bethan Sayed.

Thank you, Deputy Llywydd. First, I'd like to say that this issue has garnered widespread public interest, and while we're not the education committee, having conducted a public poll on what the public thought that we as a committee should investigate as a committee, this matter came to the fore. Over 2,500 people responded to that poll and 44 per cent said that we should look into this matter.

During the inquiry, it was clear that the concerns around the teaching of history were the most immediate. But it is true to say that culture and heritage is an integral part of our history, and therefore any developments for the future would need to look at this in more detail. Clearly, history isn't the only subject where narratives and experiences of Welsh identity are reflected, as we've been reminded, and I hope that we will have time to consider the teaching of Welsh culture through language, literature and the arts in future.

History teaching should not be confined to one particular lesson structure—we agree on that, certainly. Therefore, a wider piece of work from this committee, looking at the possibilities and how the wider school community engages with history, culture and heritage, would be something that we would welcome for the future.

In terms of the challenges of the new curriculum, these concerns were precipitated by the reforms to the Curriculum for Wales 2022. Professionals told us that the teaching of Welsh history will be diluted when it will be taught within the humanities area of learning and experience, alongside religious studies, geography and business studies. Academics and teaching unions told us that this approach would mean that students wouldn't have the chance to develop the rigour of historical analysis they need to study the subject at degree level.

Most importantly, everyone who came to speak to us called for all pupils to learn common themes and events. A typical comment came from Dr Elin Jones, who said that there are certain key periods in Welsh history when there are developments that are central to the formation of an individual identity in Wales. That's why I'm disappointed that the Government has rejected our recommendation to include a common body of knowledge for all pupils studying history in the new curriculum. The evidence we heard was that learning about key events will allow all pupils to have an understanding of how their country has been shaped by local and national events within the wider context.

The Government told us that the Curriculum for Wales 2020:

'is a purpose-led curriculum which moves away from specifying lists of "topics/content" to be taught.'

They also said:

'The flexibility of the new Curriculum will enhance this learning by allowing teachers to deliver lessons in more creative ways better suited to the learners they teach.'

This will means that learners across Wales will have very different experiences of learning about Welsh history. This flexibility is what prompted the concern of practitioners who told us that there were certain elements of our shared history that are too important to omit. Gaynor Legall from the Heritage and Cultural Exchange said, and I quote:

'I want the kids who live in the docks...to know about north Wales...as much as I want the people in Harlech...to know about the docks and about the coal industry...because it's about Wales. This is our country, and we need to know the total of how we got here, and, more importantly, how we're going to move forward. And we can only move forward together.'

Crucially, Race Council Cymru told us that black history should be specified as part of the new curriculum, and it should not be optional. Surely if the new curriculum is supposed to be a vision for Wales, then we should ensure that all learners in Wales have the same chance to understand the events that have shaped us as a nation and built our identity? Giving more flexibility in terms of the teaching of Welsh history wouldn't actually hinder the ability of teachers to be creative within that system. Welsh teachers are talented enough to adapt to such an approach.

In terms of resources, the new curriculum will place a new responsibility on teachers to develop materials that interpret the landscapes, identities, and histories that make up pupils' cynefin. But teaching unions have said that the Government's allocation of an additional £24 million for the whole of the curriculum roll-out is nowhere near enough. Professor Calvin Jones from Cardiff Business School told us that the current funding for schools was pretty dire and another £200 million a year was needed to deliver education fit for the future. He said, and I quote:

'The new curriculum requires much wider areas of learning and it also requires teachers to be more autonomous, to be more flexible and to create more content themselves'.

And that with current funding:

'to ask teachers to do that job, it's just unfair.'

In terms of diversity, I've already touched upon this, but we also heard that we need to reflect the diverse history of Wales. I'm really pleased that the committee did look at this in some detail, which I don't think has happened previously in this Senedd. We are not reassured that it is definitely going to be included under the new curriculum's emphasis on locality. We called for ethnic and religious diversity to be included as a core element of the new curriculum. In response, the Government has said that the new curriculum will be broad, balanced, inclusive and challenging. But if diversity is not prescribed, then how will it ensure that every school teaches the history of our BAME communities? We have heard that it isn't happening sufficiently and we do need to ensure that it can happen if there are to be changes made. 

Again, if the new curriculum allows teachers flexibility to tailor the content they deliver to the extent described already by the Minister and her team, then there’s a risk that the next generation of school leavers will have had totally unique experiences that may not add up to a shared sense of the history that formed our nation and informs our politics. This is especially pertinent in the context of the fact that we still do not recruit enough BME teachers in our schools to be role models and key influencers in relation to the content of the curriculum.

And in terms of the Estyn review, the committee felt it was crucial to have a sound evidence base on the content and standard of current teaching. We were told by Dr Steve Thompson from Aberystwyth University that most Welsh history has been offered in the context of a British history module where there are tokenistic Welsh history elements added. We heard concerns from Dr Elin Jones that since she chaired a task and finish group on this topic in 2013, there has been a lack of progress in this area. She voiced the frustration of many of our stakeholders when she said that we have no specific evidence of what actually happens in schools at the moment. We should be concerned if there isn't sufficient evidence there. That's why I’m pleased that the education Minister has accepted our recommendation to remit Estyn to review the extent to which schools are teaching Welsh content. I look forward to hearing more details as to when this will happen and a reassurance that Estyn will have sufficient resources to do it thoroughly. We want the widest possible range of schools to be included in the review.

I will finish by saying that we are disappointed that the Government has rejected our recommendations for all students to learn a common body of knowledge about the history that has shaped our nation. As I've said, on the issue of diversity specifically, if we don't have enough teachers teaching from one perspective, then how can a school in Ceredigion, perhaps, which doesn't have enough teachers from diverse backgrounds, going to be able to teach them about the broad history that they need to learn about here in Wales? It doesn't happen at the moment. We've heard that from Race Council Cymru and EYST and we need to expand upon this in order to ensure that young people in Wales leave our schools not only knowing about their cynefin which is very laudable, but also know about Wales on a national level and how Wales has shaped the world internationally, not only from a British perspective, but certainly also from a Welsh perspective, which will enable them to see the world in an entirely different way from the way that they would've seen the world as part of the education system that I was part of, certainly.

So, I look forward to the debate. We have had quite some discussion among the people of Wales on this issue. There's great interest in this area, and I hope that we can all work towards drawing up an education system that is successful and fit for purpose. Thank you.

Martin Luther King said that we are not the makers of history but we are made by history, and it's certainly the case that the history of our communities forges the thinking and the values of our communities, so understanding where we have come from and what we do is fundamentally important. 

This has been a tremendous exercise. It's an area I've written about from time to time, about the lack of knowledge and understanding of our community history and our political and social history, and I do very much hope that it's something that's going to be rectified within our curriculum and within teaching. But I do not underestimate some of the points that Bethan has made and the challenge in terms of the training and preparation of teachers to be able to deliver the curriculum and, in particular, to have the flexibility and understanding to deliver the community part of history and the materials and resources that are required for that.

I'll just give a few examples of the communities I represent, and I've spoken about this when I've visited schools, to try and ascertain what is the level of understanding. And it is an area where there is an enormous amount of work that has to be done. Llantrisant in my community—everyone knows of Dr William Price, a renowned doctor, a Chartist, a neo-druid and an eccentric. A major impact he had on the issue of cremation, which led to the first crematorium, operating crematorium, in Britain in 1924 in Glyntaff. When I did ask about it, in fact, the only thing people seemed to know was that 20,000 people turned up to his funeral and, by midday, 29 pubs in the town had run dry of beer. Yet, in actual fact, his challenge on cremation represented a significant change in terms of the law as regards church law and the secularisation of law—fundamentally important.

The Llantrisant bowmen—the battle of Crécy, the role that was played and what has been inherited by them to this very day through succession through the female line and the importance now of the ongoing rights and privileges and what that represents for the history of the area. Brown Lenox—such an important part it played in the development of Pontypridd and in the industrial revolution, yet all people seem to know is that they built the chains for the Titanic, when, in actual fact, they didn't, they built them for the Queen Mary and the Queen Elizabeth. But it's part of that mythology.

And, importantly, things like the Taff Vale judgment—1901, a major ruling by the court that took away fundamental trade union rights, which led to the Trade Disputes Act 1906, a fundamental step in the democratisation of our society and the empowerment and the recognition of the rights of workers to organise. And, in the Pontypridd area itself, one of the founders of the co-operative retail movement, William Hazell—a movement that actually continued within the retail sector up until 1985, after the miners' strike, when Lady Windsor Colliery actually closed.

Now, all those are things—and there are many, many more of these—but the question is: how are they going to be taught within our schools? Who actually knows about them? Where are the materials? Teachers, when they come to schools, are frequently not from the area that they actually teach in. How do we ensure that there is that training, that there are those materials and so on, for people to actually engage, and then the organisation with the residues of these organisations that often still exist in heritage societies?

So, that, for me, is really the big challenge of this, because I think all the commitments are there in terms of the importance of our communities, of understanding our history, where we come from, the key people within that, within a broader Welsh history and within a broader international history, and it seems to me that there are very major issues with regard to whether we can actually really deliver this and whether we can deliver it consistently and how we can actually deliver it, and I suspect that the same is true, if we all look around, of all our communities around Wales, where we will have our examples of that history and probably have the same concerns as to where that fits.

It is a big challenge, but I do think that it is a challenge that we have to rise to. I think this has been an excellent report, a really important and historic report for this Assembly, and I hope that very, very serious consideration will be given to those aspects of it that are so important for our future education system and our future children and citizens. Thank you.

The philosopher Michael Oakeshott said that beyond bare facts, 1066 and all that—perhaps I should say 1282—history is an act of making—it was interesting how Mick started—or at least apprehension, a seeking for understanding. And each generation does that, and it requires great skill. Our great-great grandparents would have put the battle of Bosworth as one of the main items that forged Welsh identity. I don't suppose—. Well, only a fraction of children would now learn about that, but we had great pageants in Cardiff castle re-enacting it and just how that demonstrated the return of Arthur in the form of the Tudors, if you want to be really, really fancy about it. But it's just layer on layer of how different generations approach things.

I'm not quite sure if it was Dr John Davies or R. Davies—it was a 'Davies' historian of massive stature—who said that medieval Welsh society was the medieval equivalent, really, of the Gurkhas, and that martial society committed to the most ferocious type of warfare—that's what was the great speciality and what kept many men in employment, not just all around Britain but Europe.

Well, now, we would be taught, quite rightly, much more about our nineteenth-century tradition of seeking peace and harmony, and in the twentieth century as well, and the goodwill message that children send through the Urdd and these things. Wales at the Reformation was highly Catholic—probably with East Anglia and Lancashire the strongest areas to hold out. Protestantism was rejected with a passion amongst the people, who very much liked their faith tradition and their folk religion, with its colour and all its ceremonies. But, then, in the eighteenth century, the turn to nonconformity was absolutely massive, and had such an important influence, really, on making modern Wales.

So, there are all sorts of threads there that require deep understanding. I suppose the art of history is to do that without imposing our preferences on those former generations of Welsh men and women, because they lived real lives. Those values were really important to them, and they're radically different, many of them, from the way we think today.

I do notice in this whole area that it's been contentious for some time—I think Leighton Andrews was the first Minister to say that we needed to look at the history curriculum, and then commissioned Dr Elin Jones to write a report, which we found very, very useful as a base to our study.

Can I say that I welcome broadly the Government's response to our report? But, it's unfortunate that recommendation 2, which is that some sort of guidance needs to be given about the thread that students should be getting, in terms of what the significant events are and then how they may be interpreted—I think that is very useful in a national story. I do notice that, despite rejecting recommendation 2, you are committed to developing new resources, and that, I think, is hugely welcome.

I do think that the historical understanding of our culture is really important, because if we don't do it, then I don't think those outside Wales are really going to be convinced of a need to look at us, and to look at the unique experience we have in terms of the emergence of Wales and its place in Britain and, indeed, the wider world.

I do think that the public understanding of Welsh history and culture throughout the UK is something that we should look at—it was one of the suggestions I made at one point in the committee—because the history of Wales is of British and European importance. Some institutions around the rest of Britain, in London or—. I went to the National Museum of Scotland, and I asked for some materials on the kingdom of Strathclyde, that great repository of Welsh culture, in terms of its literature—many of our texts were found there. I had very blank looks, I have to say, because it's not really part of the national Scottish story, so why was I asking that? But actually, we have five national stories in these islands—the four home nations and Britain. I think the way we try to apprehend and understand them today is really, really important for our cultural integrity and, indeed, the way we make use of the very rich resources that have come in our heritage, but also, then, how we fashion them today. Thank you.

Can I commend what I also think is a tremendous report from the committee on the importance of Welsh history? Obviously, the genesis of this report was by popular demand, as the Chair outlined in her excellent opening remarks. I too am a bit disappointed that recommendation 2 has been rejected. It seems to dilute the centrality of the need for people in Wales to know their history, not just of Wales but internationally as well.

Can I also commend the other contributions? Mick Antoniw, David Melding, excellent, because we all come at this from different backgrounds, if you like, but it's all there to celebrate the richness and diversity of the people of Wales today, because people in Wales need to know where we've all collectively come from as a diverse population, what has happened to us on the way, to inform what we are doing now collectively and where we are going in the future. Just one aspect.

When I speak Welsh sometimes or address a meeting that would otherwise be entirely in English, there are some individuals who may complain, particularly online later: 'Oh Dai, leave it go, lighten up, always banging on in Welsh, you can speak English.' But in evaluating our history as a nation and the history of the Welsh language, which encompasses centuries of oppression and bloodletting, such as the wars fought, the Act of Union 1536 that banned the use of the Welsh language in any public post for over four centuries, the Merthyr rising, the Chartists and the Rebecca riots in Victorian times, all co-ordinated and arranged through the medium of Welsh. That led to brad y llyfrau gleision, the treachery of the blue books, and abolished the use of the Welsh language from Welsh schools entirely, facing the Welsh Not and the threat of the use of the cane. My own grandfather and his generation suffered the cane for insisting on using the Welsh language in school over a century ago. He would be proud, I'm sure, to hear his grandson's generation addressing his nation's Parliament in that very same language today without facing corporal punishment. So, let it go? No, I don't think so. 

And 562,000 people can speak Welsh in the last census, 19 per cent of the population. That is a cause for absolute celebration and wonder that Welsh has defied all attempts at obliteration over the centuries.

Now, bloodthirsty histories are not unique. Our particular bloodthirsty history here in Wales has, though, fuelled our absolute desire that our language will survive, that Wales will survive against all odds. Yma o hyd, yn wir. It's not to be taken lightly at all; otherwise, we betray the sufferings and commitments of previous generations that insisted on being Welsh and speaking Welsh despite punishment. But, as I said, that's just one aspect of Wales's history. 

I've got no time, really, to dwell on Tryweryn—that's why I'm looking to the school history lessons—dwell on Tryweryn or the exploitations of the coal industry—Mick touched on them—or Aberfan, all of that. So many injustices, so little time. And there's a load of inspiring people. We've heard about them. Can I just add a few more? Robert Recorde invented the equals sign. He was from Tenby. William Grove from Swansea invented the photovoltaic cell, forerunner of the battery, in 1843. It's in NASA spaceships today. All those American presidents with Welsh roots. David Lloyd George, yes; Aneurin Bevan; Frank Lloyd Wright, internationally renowned architect, who grew up in a Welsh-speaking family with Welsh-speaking neighbours, not in rural Ceredigion but in rural Wisconsin in the United States in the 1860s.

So, our history reminds us that Wales and its people have accomplished stunning achievements in many fields. Wales has been independent in the past. It has had over 1 million Welsh speakers in the past, so let our history inspire our future. Diolch yn fawr. 

I do think this is a very worthwhile and significant report that we're discussing today, because education is so vitally important and because history is such a big part and must be such a big part of education. Obviously, all of us need to have as good an understanding as we can arrive at in terms of the history of the world, our local history, our national history, if we're really going to understand the past and, of course, its relevance to the present and the future. It's also very important, I believe, for our sense of place and sense of identity, which is really important in terms of having a base from which to sally forth into the world, that we have that sense of history, and particularly, I think, that sense of local and national history.

What I'd like to emphasise today, Dirprwy Lywydd, is that I do believe that in many respects teaching history should begin with local history before building up to regional and national history, and from there European and international, because I think it's easier to engage children and people generally in history if you use their local surroundings, place names, names of areas, industrial history, and, indeed, the history of diverse communities.

Growing up in Newport, and going to a primary school in a multi-ethnic area, it's disappointing, I think—I know it was a long time ago—but disappointing to look back and reflect on the lack of any of that in my education at the time. There was very little that I remember about local history even though we had the industrial history of the docks, the industrial history of coal and steel coming through those docks, the chartist uprising in Newport, which was so significant in terms of the fight for democracy much further afield than Newport itself, and, of course, the diversity where we had waves of inward migration, such as my own mother coming to Newport as part of the Irish emigration and immigration, and, of course, West Indian and Asian.

None of that was reflected very much, if at all, as I recall in my education in primary school. And in terms of the Welsh language, as I recall, I don't think we even learned the national anthem in Welsh. So, so much was lacking, and I know we've made a lot of progress since then, but I do believe there is still quite a lot of work yet to do and I think this report encapsulates much of that and sets it out in a very concise and focused way, and I do believe the recommendations are very important and I welcome the response from Welsh Government to many of those recommendations, though not all.

I think it is important in terms of diversity that we reflect on the evidence that the committee received, Dirprwy Lywydd, and that we do involve Ethnic Youth Support Team and Race Council Cymru in helping tell that history of the inward migration and the experience of those ethnic minority populations to our children today, not just in the most diverse schools, but in schools generally.

I also think that we can make cross-reference here to another report that the culture committee has carried out on 'Count me in!' and using the arts and culture to address social exclusion. Because our museums, I think, are obviously very relevant, and our cultural and arts organisations more generally, in that effort to educate our children and that should be very much the case in terms of history. So, we should be getting the children out into the museums as much as we possibly can and to other organisations' bases, and, indeed, getting those organisations into our schools. So, I think we need to make those what I think are fairly obvious connections in how we take all of this forward.

So, for me, Dirprwy Lywydd, it really should start with local history, I think, in terms of the progress that we need to make because I think it is much easier to engage our children and young people on that basis and we can then develop the stories from that point.

It's on occasions like this that I'm sorry I'm no longer on the culture committee. I'm a bit disappointed, Dai, that you didn't mention the fantastic Richard Price of Llangeinor, who is, of course, our regional hero. I must admit, I do worry about the place of Welsh history—[Interruption.] [Laughter.] Oh, he's top of the dramatis personae—come on. I already worry about the place of Welsh history, not just, actually, on our curriculum, but on the curricula of the other nations of the UK as a source of knowledge, understanding and challenge, but also in our lives generally, I think, and having our own sense of who we are, where we are and when we are, really.

The recommendations on diversity in the report, which are entirely justified, and I'm very glad that the Minister's accepted those, have a wider resonance about where we fit into our own lives as well as our place in the universe, if you like—questions that are reflected in religions all round the world. But even in a secular environment such as ours, I'm sure we'll all have spent a minute or two in recent times asking those questions about, 'Am I Welsh? Am I British? Am I European?'

I think it's also fair to say that school is not the be-all and end-all for our understanding of history. It really is the epitome of lifelong learning, and we can even give a bit of a hat tip to all those film and tv producers and writers of historic fiction, including those in Wales, who recognise the high drama of our stories, be they local or global, and who capture our attention—critical to learning—and keep us interested. Never mind the accuracy, make it relatable, show the agency of human beings.

I don't think Macmillan was quite right when he complained of, 'Events, dear boy, events.' I think history is built on decisions; usually the decisions of others and, very often of course, the decisions of men. But we can have another debate about that.

This new curriculum has the potential to treat the study of history as a means of understanding and examining human nature in every bit as good a way as the study of literature. I don't think Welsh history should be confined to discrete lessons, either. But history isn't just a source of material for humanities left to teachers to extract interesting events from Welsh history just to illustrate other anthropological points. I think we already hear that too many of our schools are relying on teachers who teach classes outside their specialism, and we've agreed that this isn't the best experience for our pupils to have. Now we're asking our teachers to embrace an expanse of knowledge and experience to express the curriculum through lessons that may still be called history or maths and ensure that pupils still get enough subject knowledge to demonstrate some depth and expertise in order to pursue further study, training or work in particular fields.

Young people are still going to want qualifications at the end of compulsory education, and those exams or other assessments will still have to be quality assured and comparable with our nearest equivalents inside and outside the UK. With exams comes the issue of specification, and that implies a need for some element of prescription—that silver thread that David was talking about—to ensure that specifications are met.

This is not an exhortation to teach to the exam. I recognise and understand why the Minister has rejected recommendation 2, but I ask her and the committee, even, to consider this illustration of the challenge. This is going to be a bit of a mam brag, so apologies for that and the likely outcome of this being completely hands-off. So, my son, right? He is a recent modern history graduate with a first from a Russell Group university. That's my proud mam face. But he did his compulsory education through the medium of Welsh in a school in the town that is the home of the Owain Glyndŵr parliament, and he loved his history teacher. He studied barely any Welsh history, or even a Welsh dimension to the British history that he did do, because there was no requirement to demonstrate knowledge and understanding of Welsh history in his compulsory education. And that is very different from my own schooldays, incidentally, although even now I ask myself what I did actually learn about my cynefin.

The Minister will say that the Estyn review and the new curriculum will meet that challenge, but with the current workforce familiar with the existing, very narrow history curriculum that has squeezed out Welsh history, how can we guard against three risks?

The first is this: who would blame the current workforce, who may have little experience of teaching Welsh history, let alone in this radically different pedagogical environment, for seeking the easiest route possible to reach an acceptable minimum but no more? There is little point in having resources, as per recommendation 6, if teachers have no time to make the most of those resources, however talented and adaptable they may be.

The second is that our new teachers will have acquired these pedagogic skills that are more cross-cutting to achieve the aims that we are reminded of in the Minister's response to recommendation 7, but who are less specialist in the area of knowledge, despite her hopes to the contrary set out in that same response. You can only fit so much into one year's PGCE study, after all.

Third and finally, Dirprwy Lywydd. The third is that Welsh history could be seen as a fix for this local identity of the curriculum, and will find itself expressed in coursework and experiential learning rather than also being considered as an appropriate subject for the academic testing element, which must be a component of GCSEs or their successors, which will still matter for the reasons I gave earlier, and I don't think any of us would want that. Thank you.

I thank the committee for this important report. I would like to take the opportunity this afternoon to question the Minister on some of the issues arising from her responses to the committee report—firstly, the thematic review that Estyn is going to be doing, looking at the arrangements for teaching Welsh history at schools. Have the terms of reference been agreed and what is the timetable for publishing that work? This needs to happen quickly. I presume that the report will confirm what we already know, namely that there are pockets of very good practice, but that a lack of consistency is the most obvious feature, with some schools failing to present anything to their pupils about the history of Wales. We do need that evidence—I agree that that needs to happen quickly.

As others have mentioned, the response to recommendation 2 is extremely disappointing. The recommendation asks for guidance setting out a common body of information for all pupils studying history. As I said yesterday, when discussing first aid, I do understand the vision and concept of the new curriculum, and I welcome the flexibility it will give teachers, but I think that some issues, including Welsh history, deserve greater clarity and certainty. As things stand, the certainty that every child will be taught fully about our country's history is absent, and the new curriculum will not improve the situation without clear guidance. Without that, there is a risk that things will be made worse, and that's what I'm concerned about. I have suggested changing 'history', under the humanities heading, to 'Welsh history and the world', so that at least a Welsh perspective will be given to the learning. Is that something the Minister is willing to consider?

I'm very pleased that you in your response to the committee's report are commissioning new resources. That’s very good news. What are the details of that, please, and what is the timetable for their publication? I see from your response to the report that you say that this will be driven by the Estyn inspection, which is another very good reason for having a tight timetable and an early publication of that inspection. Having a body of dedicated resources referring to key events and topics in the history of Wales and the world is vital. Many have already been published, of course, and I know that they're available on Hwb and so forth, but how do you intend to bring all this together, and how will the resources ensure that our young people come to learn about the basic elements of our long history and not just unconnected chunks of it?

While talking a long journey over Christmas, I had the opportunity to listen to one of the Welsh history podcasts of the entertainer Tudur Owen. I listened to an episode entitled 'Who was Owain Glyndŵr?', with the historians Rhun Emlyn and Eurig Salisbury taking us through one of the great dramatic periods of our history. I hung on their every word and learned a wealth of interesting new information, and, indeed, I was completely captivated by the experience of listening to these young historians talking so intelligently and passionately about their subject. The trip was over in no time.

Our history is full of excitement, but at the moment most of us are being deprived of it. Plaid Cymru in Government would rectify that. In the meantime, I urge the current Government to ensure that every child and young person in Wales can learn about the history of Wales and the world in every school across our country.

I wasn't going to speak in this debate—I only put the request in when I heard the Chair's opening comments. I very much welcome the committee's work and recommendations to promote local and Welsh history. And it was only on Saturday that I was being lobbied by constituents specifically to ask the education Minister to include the teaching of our local heroes in schools. And it was on Saturday because it was 100 years to the day that we were commemorating the hundredth anniversary of the death of Pryce Jones, who was born and died in Newtown and changed the world. He was the founder of mail order, and he was the forerunner of Amazon. But, sadly, if you asked schoolchildren in Newtown, the chances are they would not know that fact. And the heritage hub for Newtown, promoting the event, was intending to ask the education Minister to consider what your report is outlining today.

But in Montgomeryshire, and in Newtown specifically, we have a number of local heroes. In fact, we've just named four new roundabouts after them on the Newtown bypass: Robert Owen, Pryce Jones, Laura Ashley and David Davies of Llandinam. But I know the education Minister can expect a letter—because I've seen a draft of the letter this morning and is on its way to her—from the heritage hub for mid Wales, asking for our local heroes to be included in the school curriculum. And the letter sets out also that on 14 May next year we will be celebrating a very special anniversary of the legacy of Robert Owen. And I should say, in 1816, Robert Owen opened the first free infant school in the UK.

This is perhaps where I disagree with David Melding who said, in his contribution, 'If we don't shout about our local heroes here in Wales, then nobody else will.' But, in fact, the—

New Lanark.

Yes, New Lanark points out, of course, there that—they've capitalised on Robert Owen. So, if other parts of the country can shout and talk about our local Welsh heroes, then surely that's what we should be doing in Wales and in our schools.

Can I call the Minister for Education, Kirsty Williams?

Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer, for the opportunity to respond on behalf of the Government to the committee's report on the teaching of Welsh history, heritage and culture. As has already been noted during the debate, we have accepted all of the recommendations in full or in principle bar one. I can confirm that Estyn will undertake a review of the teaching of Welsh history, and this review will take place over the coming months, and its terms of reference will be informed by the committee's recommendations.

I will now turn to wider issues—those raised in the report and in this afternoon's debate. Clearly, this is a subject that stirs strong passions, perspectives and interpretations. And let me be clear, Deputy Presiding Officer, I am fully committed to the new curriculum's innovative approach to the theme of cynefin as the starting point for study. It will run through each of the areas of learning and experience. Learners will be grounded in an understanding of the identities, landscapes and histories that come together to form their cynefin.

In writing about the ongoing contemporary influence of Christian thought, the historian Tom Holland recently wrote that it was like dust particles—so fine as to be invisible, breathed in equally by everyone. Analysing, understanding and questioning the histories and stories of Wales, our communities and our neighbours should not and cannot be limited to a history lesson—it will be breathed in by everyone across the curriculum. Therefore, it's interesting to note that, although the committee was looking into the teaching of Welsh history, heritage and culture, I couldn't find a single reference to literature, sport, film or drama. And that's a real shame, as it gives the impression that history—or more accurately, histories—is only a matter for one lesson and one subject.

It is my expectation that in the new curriculum, the histories of Wales will be unlocked, discovered and analysed, as learners are encouraged to, for instance, explore Shakespeare or R.S. Thomas and Mererid Hopwood, scrutinise the role of sport as an expression of national identity, or perhaps contrast and compare the histories portrayed in Pride with those in House of America. Now, this is not to dismiss history as a discipline—I'm a student of it myself—but as Sarah Morse, from the Learned Society of Wales has put it:

'History isn't the only subject where narratives and experiences of Wales are reflected'.

And it's unfortunate that the committee didn't have enough time to get this full breadth and depth.

If I can, then, turn to the one recommendation that we rejected—that of listing key events and topics to be studied by all learners. Now, I have some sympathy with the rationale of the committee in making this recommendation, however, at the very heart of the new curriculum is the principle that learners benefit when their teachers are allowed the flexibility to tailor the content of lessons to their needs and to their local context. In order to deliver this flexibility, we need to ensure that the curriculum is not structured as a tick-box list of content to be studied.

And my goodness me, Deputy Presiding Officer, we only have to listen to the contributions from around the room this afternoon to understand what a process it would be to list those very subjects. And can I say, Russell George, there is nothing to stop the primary schools of Newtown talking about your local heroes, and they certainly don't need permission from me to do so. I will give you an example from my own constituency, where the Ystradgynlais History Society has created a number of booklets about people from that community, with financial help from the Welsh Government, actually, which have been distributed to schools. So, they certainly don't need permission in Newtown from the education Minister to engage in those lessons.

It wasn't meant to be a criticism, it was just an observation. But I think, more importantly, the wider point I was making was that some of these local heroes can be talked about not just in Newtown but right across Wales in our schools. That was the wider point that I was making.

Indeed they can. And, again, there is nothing in the proposals for our new curriculum that would prevent that from happening. 

We will be working with practitioners to commission new resources that do refer to key events and topics in the histories of Wales and the world. And it is my expectation that these will provide a very real foundation as we move forward in the next two and a half years before the curriculum is rolled out. We are currently working with a number of bodies to assess what will be needed, although in the context, again, of Welsh history, the Learned Society for Wales said that a lack of resources isn't necessarily an issue. 

Now, within the context of learning that moves and looks outwards from one's own cynefin, I would expect that there are basics of our history that will be key to fulfilling the curriculum's purpose of becoming an informed citizen. For instance, in building on the extensive resources that are already available, we can look forward to analysis of key events and topics such as the world wars of the last century, the race riots 100 years ago, Wales's constitutional journey, the story of Cymraeg, Dai, and the development of the welfare state. Now, these and other topics will be studied and interpreted from a local perspective and then drawing links to the national and the international. 

So, on the history of the language, for example, in my patch the context may very well be the Epynt clearances, which actually removed Welsh-speaking families from that part of Breconshire and moved the line where Welsh was spoken within the community. But further north in Powys, in Russell George's patch, perhaps we could have conversations about Bishop William Morgan's Bible and the absolute influence of his work in Llanrhaeadr-ym-Mochnant with regard to the language, or explore the connections between place names further afield, as to why there is a Trelew in Argentina; why is there a Brynmawr in Pennsylvania? And we must remember that diversity of perspective and analysis is important as we move forward. So, let's not forget our role in the slave trade. Let's analyse why so many Welsh teachers and parents acquiesced to the use of the Welsh Not, and let's not forget, just as we are arguably the original colony, we also contributed to building the empire. 

So, make no mistake, studying the history and histories of Wales is important to the fulfilment of the purposes of the new curriculum. To be an engaged, informed and ethical citizen, learners will make sense of their identity and that history, cultures and geography helped shape it. And I'm pleased that this issue remains a priority for so many people here in the Senedd and has led to some of the best debates that we've had. I hope that I have been able to further explain how we are taking these matters forward.

The additional support, professional learning and guidance that is being developed will enable schools to take forward improved, enhanced and expanding studies of our history across the six areas of learning and experience, and I can once again confirm the histories and stories of Wales will be a core aspect of each and every area of learning and experience across the curriculum.

Now, the approaches here in the Chamber this afternoon have, in some ways, accepted the principles that lie behind the very foundation of our new curriculum, but they have come with a large 'but'. If we are to trust our teachers, the first step is trusting them in the design of this curriculum, because this curriculum has been co-constructed with history specialists, with the teachers who work, day in, day out, with our children. It has been constructed with the expertise from our universities and further education colleges. They have delivered and designed this curriculum. I absolutely back that spirit of co-construction and the approach that they have taken to cynefin and what that will lead to for a rich learning experience for our children. Diolch yn fawr.

I call on Bethan Sayed to reply to the debate.

Diolch. I know I won't have time to reflect on everybody's contributions, but I am grateful as well for the wealth of contributions that we've had and the wealth of interest that we've had in this debate here today. It only goes to show the emphasis we all put on our own histories and our own version of histories, and I guess that's where I think the Minister is saying that putting a line through what are the most important aspects would be difficult. But I think we were trying to be helpful in saying that, in some parts of Wales, for example, you may have a wealth of talent and resource to be able to teach a certain issue, because it is part of the cynefin, because it is part of the local politic of the area, but in another part of Wales that same type of learning may not therefore be able to be transported.

I feel I learnt this most from those who came forward from the black and minority ethnic community, from Race Council Cymru and the Ethnic Minorities and Youth Support Team. I feel sometimes we do talk from a position of privilege, because we can go on about flexibility, but if you haven't got the teachers from that particular community in the classrooms with that background you simply will not, potentially, be taught about the race riots or about how colonialism works. I was never taught about how we have taken part in the destruction of countries across the world as part of the British empire, and why I think having a thread is important is because I want to be certain that schools across Wales will at least have some element of that.

Because we know now that, as amazing as some of these teachers will be, in various different topics they may not be aware or, because they haven't had that lived experience, they may not then be able to transfer that. And teachers say that to me all the time as well: 'I don't feel confident to be able to do that type of history or transfer that type of history to the people that I teach.' But it's not saying that they're not good; it's just acknowledging that they may need more resource or may need more support to get to that point. I stand by the committee's view that we should have more than just that flexibility in our education system, because, at the end of the day, as I think a few of you said, we will need qualifications at the end of this. We will need to know how we can then ensure that all of the students of Wales are leaving with that baseline qualification to go out into the real world and to share that knowledge with others.

I appreciate what has been said with regard to the wider curriculum, but I also said at the beginning that we would like to return to this as a committee to look at literature and other aspects of the curriculum; we were pressed for time in that regard. For example, I know from the area I represent, in Port Talbot, some of the local councillors have funded street art in the area based on the story of Dic Penderyn. Now, that's got nothing to do with the history curriculum in the classroom, but it's got everything to do with how we teach it in a very different way, in a creative way. So, please don't think that we've ignored it; it's just what we've managed to do within the timeline that we had as a committee.

I'm not sure I've got much time left. I know that Mick Antoniw made very strong points in relation to social issues and with regard to the industrial revolution. I know that that's something that we will want to share across Wales and we will want to challenge teachers on in terms of how they project that to the rest of the world. But David Melding made a very good point, when we were in committee, that we shouldn't just be looking at this as an educational system approach, but a public approach. There are adults out there now who may not understand many aspects of their own history. How do we make sure that we can project that public history and that understanding?

Dai Lloyd we would have expected to have been passionate about the areas that he spoke about. But it's true, you know. We don't want to politicise the language now for political purposes, but it has come from a very political place, where the language has been thwarted over the years, and it's something we must remind future generations about, or they won't know the core as to where it's come from.

In relation to John Griffiths, I'm very laid back in relation to whether you should start with localism or whether you should start with international issues. It may be that there's something that the school wants to focus on that isn't necessarily local. But I do get what you're saying, if you start really close to home, then it means something tangible to you, and it means something that you can look at and visit. I think you made a really good point about the poverty report in relation to museums and how we can weave in visits and such into our curriculum much more so, and I hope that the teachers will be doing that. St Fagans is a massive resource already for people to tap into.

Quickly, then, with regard to what Suzy Davies said—and well done to your son, on the mam brag, for the degree, that was very—. I agree with a lot of what you said in terms of specification, and I understand that we need to ensure that we have a local understanding of what we are teaching as well.

Just to finish: Russell George, thank you for taking part in the debate at the last moment. All I would say is perhaps, if you've got roundabouts to be named after people of influence, Laura Ashley's could be decorated with something a bit more interesting than grass and a bit of shrubbery. She is a fashion queen, so we need to have more.

Leanne made a point from a sedentary position: we also have to think about how many women are part of our history. We had a lot of names of men there, didn't we? We have to try to mix this up a bit with how influential women can be key players in our history and how we teach about the history of Wales. That's what I'll finish on. Diolch yn fawr.

The proposal is to note the committee's report. Does any Member object? No. The motion is, therefore, agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

The next debate is the Plaid Cymru debate on rape and sexual abuse. I call on Leanne Wood to move the motion—Leanne Wood.

Diolch, Llywydd. We are all, I'm sure, aware of a number of high-profile cases recently that justify the need for this debate. One was particularly harrowing: the British teenager who was convicted of lying about being gang-raped and sentenced to a four-month suspended sentence and fined €140. This followed the retraction of her statement to police after an eight-hour unrecorded interrogation session without access to legal representation. The multiple injuries on her body were, according to one expert, said to be consistent with a violent assault. I and many others are of the view that an atrocity has been committed against this young women and that it is potentially a miscarriage of justice. In short, I believe her, and plenty of others do, too. And it's all very well for people to be pointing the finger at the flawed justice system in Cyprus. I would argue that there isn't a country in the world where it is safe for women to live without the fear of rape or sexual assault.

Let's just take a look at the statistics. In the year ending March 2019, there were 58,657 allegations of rape, yet there were only 1,925 convictions for rape. Since 2016, the number of cases prosecuted by the CPS has fallen by 52 per cent. This is despite the fact that there has been a 43 per cent increase in the number of rape allegations made to the police. Prosecutions for rape in England and Wales are at their lowest levels in a decade; and that is for adults. For children, we still do not know the full extent of childhood sexual abuse. Though, according to the Children's Society, analysis from the ONS found that children in England and Wales are over-represented in sexual offence numbers, with rape victims more likely to be aged between 15 and 19 years old, and account for nearly a quarter, that's 23 per cent, of all rape offences recorded by the police, even though that age group only makes up 6 per cent of the population. Around 85 per cent of those reported offences do not result in any action against the perpetrator.

None of this is happening in a vacuum. To address and tackle and turn around these shocking statistics, all arms of Government must take action and responsibility. A poisonous culture that results in victim blaming, the persecution of survivors and the presumption of innocence towards perpetrators has resulted in rape and sexual assault almost having become decriminalised. What is the point of reporting rape or sexual assault when you know the kind of treatment that you can expect? How many people have an appetite to relive the trauma whilst not being believed only to get no result at the end of it all? Why would you bother? So, I salute all of those people who report; you are incredibly brave. 

But I want to touch on the political context under which this is all happening. I don't believe that it is an accident that the former Secretary of State for Wales has not been held to account for what he did or didn't know about the actions of his friend and political colleague Ross England, who was responsible for collapsing a rape trial, forcing a rape survivor not only to have to relive her ordeal once but twice, and her name was trashed in the process. Most women I know—I have to say that most women I know and who I've spoken to about this have some unwanted sexual experience in their history. This stuff is all too common. Most women I know have been horrified that a man who collapsed a rape trial can be promoted politically after he did that, while the survivor's care has been neglected— 

Would you give way, Leanne? 

—or, to be more accurate, she's been further harmed by all of this. 

Would you give way? 

No. 

I have pursued the case of Alun Cairns, and I'm pretty sure there are other senior members of the Welsh Conservatives who knew more than they were letting on, because I believe having men like this who have such scant regard for rape and rape victims in positions of power contributes to the appalling rape statistics that I referred to earlier, and to the reasons why women and men don't report. And I will continue to pursue it, and all of you are invited to sign the open letter that I've written to the Prime Minister on this matter, which can be found on my website and my Facebook page. 

I want to conclude this afternoon with an outline of what we can do about all of this. Yes, we need to challenge and change rape culture—this has to start in school with questions like respect and consent—but we also have to change this political culture, too. A public information campaign making clear where the boundaries are with consent and rape would also be helpful. We have to change so much about the way we as a society deal with rape, and in order to do that we have to have control over the policy levers. The status quo is failing rape survivors as things stand, and we can change that with devolution.

Devolution of the criminal justice system would also enable us to ensure that well-trialled perpetrator programmes were fully available within prisons and probation teams to try to reduce the risk of sexual offences being repeated. I would also like to see changes to the practices within the police, the Crown Prosecution Service and the courts system to address these low conviction rates. We could make sure debrief interviews are statutory when a child returns from a missing incident; this happens elsewhere with good results, helping police to build up patterns and pictures, and helps to improve safeguarding.

The Thomas commission gives us opportunities to improve the overall situation. Thomas concluded that only full legislative devolution combined with executive powers will overcome the failings of the current system. It would give us the opportunity to look at what works in other countries, like the specialist courts in South Africa and the social movements and information campaigns on consent and coercion that we see in Sweden. We can build a new system that works from scratch, free from the patriarchal and misogynistic binds that exist within the current system. Why would we not do that?     

I have selected four amendments to the motion, and in accordance with Standing Order 12.23(iii), I have not selected amendment 2. I therefore call on Mandy Jones to move amendments 1 and 3, tabled in the name of Caroline Jones. Mandy Jones. 

Diolch, Llywydd. I formally move the amendments in Caroline Jones's name. I thank Plaid Cymru for tabling this debate today. It raises important issues that go to the core of what sort of country we are and what we want to be.

I was horrified to read the reports of the case in Cyprus that hit the headlines last week, and horrified again today to see the reports of an effective cover-up of yet more industrial grooming and rapes of children in the care system, this time in Greater Manchester. When did we start blaming victims? When did we acquire an underclass of victims where some stories are more credible than others? And in the case last week, when did young men start to think it's totally acceptable or that it's a rite of passage for a group of 10 or more to have sex with one woman? So, while this debate is about the criminal justice system, there are also broader considerations about education, parenting and the availability of porn and so on.

I turn now to our amendments. I don't accept that powers being devolved to this place will, in itself, lead to the desired outcomes. Indeed, every week, we debate and scrutinise the powers we already have and what the Government has done with them here. When the health service is as challenged as it is; when an improvement that keeps us at the bottom of the Programme for International Student Assessment results for the UK is seen as a success, I have no confidence that this Assembly or this Government would be any better at criminal justice than the UK Government, to be quite honest. But I do look forward to full discussion in this Chamber on the full report in due course, especially with regard to how conviction rates will be improved. While I've expressed my appreciation for the bringing of this debate, and I fully express my group's support for victims—male, female, child and adult—I do feel that we get mixed messages, particularly from Plaid Cymru and Welsh Labour. How does giving a vote to rapists and sexual abusers, as you propose, show support for the victims? How do you reconcile your vocal calls for a reduction in those going to prison with the victims' right to justice? I do believe that the cuts to public services over the last 10 years have had a disproportionate effect on access to justice, and certainly, the Crown Prosecution Service. The latter, to my mind, is definitely not fit for purpose, and changes do need to be made and confidence restored.

I'd like to turn now to sentencing. Those convicted of these crimes must have meaningful sentences that seek to rehabilitate, and yes, punish. In a case uncomfortably close to home, a judge deemed a loss of good character and a fall from grace as enough punishment in a child porn case, where children are sexually abused and raped to create these images online. This sentence added insult to very grave injury—[Interruption.] Yes.

A note of caution in this quest for justice: lives are ruined by false allegations of rape and sexual abuse, and those making those false allegations also make it harder for genuine victims. So, a balance needs to be struck. I'm not sure how that happens, but I think we can all agree that the current processes are just not working and they have actually been going backwards and haven't worked for a long time. This is not right and something needs to be done as soon as possible. Thank you. 

I call on Mark Isherwood to move amendments 4 and 5, tabled in the name of Darren Millar. Mark Isherwood. 

Diolch, Llywydd. As last month's HM Crown Prosecution Service Inspectorate's '2019 Rape Inspection' report for England and Wales said, there has been a substantial increase in the number of allegations of rape, and yet, the number of rape prosecutions has fallen significantly. As it also said, rape is a crime that is committed primarily by men against women. However, it's also perpetrated against men and boys, so in this report, they refer to the complainant. Responding to this report, the new UK Government said that these findings are deeply concerning and that victims deserve to know that they will be supported, and the Prime Minister has been clear that more has to be done to bring perpetrators of violent and sexual crimes to justice. To put this right, they're conducting a full review of the criminal justice citizens response, recruiting 20,000 more police, giving £85 million to the Crown Prosecution Service or CPS, creating extra prison places and making sure that violent and sexual offenders spend longer behind bars. Clearly, this said, there is more to do, but the UK Government is committed to restoring confidence in the justice system, and critically, providing better support for victims. I move amendment 5 accordingly. 

As our amendment 4 notes, this report found that both the number of cases referred to the CPS for a decision by the police and the number of cases prosecuted by the CPS fell, despite reports of rape to the police nearly doubling. It was reported that HM Chief Inspector, Kevin McGinty said that, since 2016, there's been a substantial increase in rape allegations, while the number of rape prosecutions has fallen significantly, which indicates that there is a serious problem. The CPS, he said, has been accused of only choosing easy cases to prosecute, but we found no evidence of that in our report. He said that, while the CPS needs to improve the way it works with the police, the CPS is only a small part of a large systemic problem in the criminal justice process in dealing with complex cases. More work is needed, he said, to investigate the discrepancy between the number of cases reported and the number of cases prosecuted by the CPS. 

The Office for National Statistics has also said that the increase in sexual offences reported to the police is,

'most likely a result of both better recording practices on the part of many police forces, which had previously been found inadequate by Her Majesty's Inspectorate of Constabulary...and increased willingness of victims and survivors of these offences to report.'

But as Welsh Women's Aid states, survivors are often placed on waiting lists whilst capacity for support becomes available. Of course, this is not an England or Wales issue, but a cross-border and no-border one. We therefore support amendment 1, which replicates our withdrawn amendment 2. 

Although, south Wales saw a 179 per cent increase in recorded rates between 2014-19, Dyfed Powys, a 167 per cent increase, Gwent, a 147 per cent increase and north Wales, 126 per cent increase—a total of 2,218 recorded cases—all four police forces saw big decreases in the number of cases referred to the CPS, the numbers charged and the numbers resulting in a conviction. However, I can only find one reference in the Thomas commission report on justice in Wales to any cross-border criminality, and that's only in the context of county lines along the M4 corridor and north Wales. And the solution it proposes is joint working across the four Welsh forces in collaboration with other agencies, without reference to partners across the border. In reality, for example, North Wales Police report increased collaboration with Merseyside and Cheshire forces and share their regional organised crime unit with neighbouring English forces.

I've said this before, but it's true: Wales has an east-west axis of crime and justice, and calls for the devolution of criminal justice to Wales fail to recognise that criminal activity does not recognise national or regional boundaries, and that 48 per cent people in Wales live within 25 miles of the border with England and 90 per cent within 15 miles of the border. Crime is not national by identity. 

In contrast, only 5 per cent of the combined population of Scotland and England live within 15 miles of their border. It's therefore regrettable that the Commission on Justice in Wales report focuses, to a large extent, on the transitory policies of Governments and parties each side of the border, which come and go, rather than whether the constitutional principle of the devolution of criminal justice would create a fairer, more just system for everybody.

Will you take an intervention?

Well, it depends on time; I've only got a few seconds left.

It's up to you to take the intervention. I'll allow more time for interventions.

Okay.

You've just put forward an argument for a European criminal justice system.

Well, no, my concluding paragraph will actually address that. When I raised this last time in the Chamber, I actually discussed with the First Minister, more of a US system, because, if instead, we're going to evolve into a more effective system that recognises the increasingly federalised and the federalising nature of the UK, we will need to look to more of a network system rather than simply trying to draw lines between systems according to where national borders lie. That's how to deal with perpetrators, but that's also how to support the victims.

I just wanted to pick up on something that Leanne said earlier as to how all women have had some sort of assault on them. I was just reflecting on it, because when I was 18 years old, I gave a lift to a young man from a party. I'd never met him before, I knew nothing about him, but he just happened to live close to where I did. And, when I dropped him off at his house, and I refused to go in, he started beating me around the head, from nowhere. I was perfectly okay—I ran off and left my car, and then went back for it later—but the fact is, I never reported it to anybody; I never spoke to my parents about it and I never spoke to my friends about it. How deeply disturbed was this individual, who I'd never met before and never have met since, that he thought that he had a right to beat me over the head simply because I refused to go along with his advances? All of us must have had a similar experience. How many other people did that man do that sort of thing to, and how many of them succumbed to it? If we don't speak up, then people who are seriously disturbed will go on doing this sort of thing.

So, I'd like to congratulate Leanne on the timing of this debate, because, obviously it coincides with the disgraceful situation that occurred in Cyprus. It seems to me that the message is loud and clear that nobody should go on holiday to Cyprus, because the criminal justice system in Cyprus simply won't keep you safe. The failure by the Cypriot police to follow the most basic procedural safeguards when interviewing this young woman is something I hope we will never see again in this country. And I'm assuming that, eventually, it will lead to a reversal of the decision that was handed down in the courts. I'm sure it has been counterproductive—their attempt to protect the image of Cyprus as a tourist destination has actually had the reverse outcome. 

I just wanted to talk a little bit about the conviction rates. I'm pleased that south Wales is actually doing a lot better than the other three police forces, because 55 in 100 domestic abuse crimes they deal with do lead to prosecution, compared with 27 or 28 out of 100 in other policing areas. And this is better, but, obviously, it's not sufficient, because we have to remember that, on top of the ones that are recorded as domestic violence crimes, there are many other incidents that the police deal with that are not recorded as a crime. And then, of course, there are all the others that never go anywhere near the police.

Last week, I was fascinated to listen to Sally Challen and her son David talk about their situation, and congratulations to Bethan Sayed for organising that. For those who are not familiar with this, here's a woman in her sixties who, after years and years of marriage, suddenly decided that she had to kill this man. And, of course, it was after years of coercive control that was in plan sight to her friends, not so much her family, but her friends, her neighbours, and in some instances, the police. So, what could anybody have done to prevent that level of coercion leading to the unfortunate death of somebody who was, obviously, a very unpleasant guy? And nobody spoke up in his favour. All the people at the trial were supportive of this woman—all the friends of the family, the relatives, including her two sons. It does tell us, as Sally said, that there are all too many people who face this sort of situation. What she said in an interview was,

'A lot of the problem is that women don't know they're in a relationship of coercive control. It’s family, friends and relatives who do see it. Somehow they have to speak to that person and convince them to leave. They don't seem to be able to break that tie. It’s a very strong tie and the women are very vulnerable'.

And, obviously, she's speaking about herself, but there are many other people in Sally Challen's situation. So, I think, finally, I just want to say it's so important that we've got our relationship and sexuality curriculum coming up because this is where we will get good relationships built into our young people and that emotional resilience that goes with that.

We don't need to look at this particularly carefully to understand why our justice system isn't working for victims. Between 2010 and 2016, a third of the Ministry of Justice budget was cut. This was the department hit second worst after the Department for Work and Pensions. The budgets of courts were cut; the number of courts were cut from 330 to 150. Now, the impact of that, of course, is bound to have worked its way through the whole justice system, from the CPS and the way that they deal with cases, to delays in courts, to litigants being forced to represent themselves. The support and services available to victims and survivors is also eroded. If you're a victim of sexual violence seeking counselling then you are likely to be told, in making that request, that the waiting list in your sexual violence crisis centre will have closed because of a lack of funding. As a result, mental and emotional health is sure to decline.

Now, the rape crisis centre in north Wales is the only rape crisis service across the six north Wales services providing specialist counselling for all victims, and this what their director, Jane Ruth, said:

'It's extremely challenging to run a service when funding is so uncertain. I have really serious worries about what will happen to all the people who seek support if we aren't able to meet their needs'.

We know that most people in our society see this as being unacceptable. A YouGov poll recently for the End Violence Against Women Coalition showed that a majority of people saw access to counselling as being more important than access to the police or the courts service for survivors of sexual violence. The vast majority of people—82 per cent—acknowledged that sexual violence does have impact on mental health. And significantly too, as happens so often, 60 per cent of people believe that access to counselling is available free of charge already for survivors of sexual violence, when we know that that isn't the case on the ground because of a lack of capacity, driven by a lack of funding.

In March 2018, there were 6,355 survivors on rape crisis waiting lists—over 6,000 people at one point waiting on those waiting lists—and it's expected that the figures will be even higher today, with the increasing demand for support services. I wonder whether the young woman found guilty of lying, having been gang-raped in Cyprus, will have access to professional counselling services, or is she going to have to wait on a waiting list, which will be lengthy at best, or non-existent at worst?

Now, I have no doubt that the failings of the UK Government are at the heart of the problem that we are currently facing. This is what Sarah Green, the joint director of the End Violence Against Women Coalition, said:

'No part of government has ever stepped up and made the guaranteed funding of community-based rape counselling services their responsibility. This is an appalling abandonment of survivors. The current government has seen fit to leave the decision about whether to fund vital and life-saving rape counselling services to a mix of local commissioners including cash-strapped local councils, PCCs and health boards.'

Why can't Wales do things differently? Why not take responsibility in Wales for doing things differently? The devolution of justice could create a more integrated system and that will bring benefits through merging our health and social services with our justice policy.

We have seen much good practice here already in Wales on the ground, thanks to the work of our police and crime commissioners. The recent Thomas report also points to Welsh Government legislation, the Violence against Women, Domestic Abuse and Sexual Violence (Wales) Act 2015, as an example of how we can be innovative, with an emphasis on prevention. Wales has the ability. Wales has the skills to provide a far better service. We must now push to have those powers.

Rape is second only to murder in the catalogues of crime, and it is rightly condemned and rightly severely punished when perpetrators are convicted. But the one thing that this motion neglects is, on the other hand, if rape is so serious a crime, accusing somebody falsely of rape is a very serious matter as well. Everybody knows the stigma that attaches to allegations of that kind. And I do have some difficulty in accepting the terms of the motion where it said

'too often survivors are not believed'.

Well, that may well be true, but also, as we know from the Carl Beech case, and many others, the opposite is also true—that there are many so-called victims who make false allegations and therefore subject the victims to trauma of an unimaginable kind.

So, what worries me about the way in which this motion is couched is that it doesn't seem to pay any regard at all to one of the most fundamental tenets of British justice, which is the presumption of innocence—something that is enshrined within the European Convention on Human Rights, in article 6(2). It seems that to accuse is to convict. We talk about

'international best practice on increasing conviction rates'.

Well, if we assume that we've got to have a quota of convictions, then that seems to undermine the very basis of the justice system itself. It may well be that there are not enough convictions because the evidence doesn't stand up, and, very often, as we know, people get wrongly convicted, and, on the other hand, there are people who get away with crimes because they've not been able to find in court enough evidence to convince a jury.

I'm, I think, the only Member of this Assembly who has had the miserable experience of being falsely accused of rape, along with my wife, back in 2001. I was very publicly arrested before the entire world's media, and a pretty grim experience that is. On the same day, six police officers were sent up to Cheshire, where we were then living, for our house to be raided and searched. And my wife had the appalling experience of having to ring her then 88-year-old mother and asking her to go and open up the house to receive this delegation, because we were actually incarcerated, under arrest, in a police station in London on false charges of sexual abuse. This was all orchestrated, of course, by Max Clifford. He brokered the deal for our false accuser with the News of the World, so that she could pocket £50,000. She ultimately went to prison for three years for perjury and attempting to pervert the course of justice.

I was amazed, 10 years later, when, out of the blue, somebody contacted me to ask if the person who had accused her son falsely of rape was the same person who had accused my wife and me. And lo and behold, so it proved to be: Nadine Milroy-Sloan. She went to prison a second time—for four years on this occasion. And we know from Operation Midland that, very often, the most absurd, it seems—when you read in retrospect what the police had believed—allegations have led to the complete wreckage of people's lives. We know, in the Operation Midland case, people like Field Marshal Lord Bramall were accused of abuse of boys, and the head of MI5, the head of MI6, Prime Minister Edward Heath, the former Home Secretary, Uncle Tom Cobbley and all. And, in the course of tearful interviews with the police, Carl Beech even accused his late stepfather, an army major, of raping him, and said that he had been passed on to generals to be tortured at military bases and sadistically sexually abused by other establishment figures in the 1970s and 1980s. We cannot deny that this is a serious problem as well. So, I wish that this motion had been drawn in a more balanced way to refer to the other victims of this sorry saga as well, which are those who are falsely accused. My old friend Harvey Proctor has been on the television much in recent months as another victim of Operation Midland, and the trauma—I'm sure that anybody who has seen him on television would see—has been etched in the lines on his face.

Now, in drawing attention to people who have suffered this experience, it is not meant in any way to diminish the trauma and injustice that is done to the real victims of rape. Many people are targeted in the circumstances I've described just because they are well known; it is possible to make money out of this if you are sufficiently determined and unscrupulous. But the real victims of false allegations are not so much people like me—in the long term, we've survived and recovered and prospered—the real victims of false allegations are those who have been raped in reality, but whose credibility is reduced in front of a jury by the high-profile false allegations that prove to be absolutely absurd.

What do we mean when we use the word 'justice'? I've looked it up and the Oxford English Dictionary offers two principal meanings: the first being 'just and reasonable behaviour or the quality of being fair', and the second meaning is 'the administration of the law'. Now, as anyone who has known someone who's been raped or who has campaigned to improve the system will know, these two meanings are not always the same; the administration of the law in England is not providing survivors of rape with just and reasonable treatment in too many cases. The statistics do show this in part. In the year ending March 2019, as we've heard, less than 4 per cent of cases reported to the police resulted in a prosecution. But Llywydd, the statistics only tell us part of the story. What about the survivors who don't even feel able to report what's happened to them? The statistics are blighted by the stories they don't tell—the women and men who don't report what's happened to them out of stigma, shame, terror at how they might be blamed or not believed by the people and systems that are meant to provide them with just treatment.

And what of the survivors who do take that seemingly impossibly brave step to report a rape to the police? At every stage of a survivor's uphill struggle to get justice, the odds are stacked against them. Police culture—though improved and though there is positive work being undertaken by the police and crime commissioners, it's still patchy. There'll be questions about what the survivor was wearing, how much they'd had to drink, whether they'd slept with the perpetrator before, how many people they've slept with in general at any time, whether they've been in contact with the perpetrator since. There will be invasive medical examinations that may or may not get the evidence that they need to prove what's happened to them. And then, even if the police are satisfied with the veracity of their story and even if they went to report it before showering or doing the instinctive thing of washing what's happened away, they may still—they are overwhelmingly likely to be told that the Crown Prosecution Service doesn't think there's enough chance of success and that they won't be pursuing the case.

The End Violence Against Women Coalition cites a case dropped by the CPS because WhatsApp messages could be misinterpreted and another where rape within marriage wasn't prosecuted because of a CPS assumption that a jury wouldn't understand the dynamics of a coercive and controlling relationship. But Llywydd, is it any wonder that so few women and men choose to report when they've been raped? Our justice system requires phenomenal bravery from survivors; it requires them to put aside the trauma and to go to a cold examination room and talk to strangers about the worst thing that's ever happened to them. One of the main reasons I believe that justice should be devolved to Wales is that criminal cases like this don't happen in a vacuum. A survivor of rape will likely come into contact with a plethora of services—a GP, a triage nurse in A&E, a sexual health clinic, a support group, a Citizens Advice centre—before or instead of going to the police.

Would you give way?

I'll give way.

Thank you. Just a question, really. If there's a person who has alleged rape in south Wales and is unhappy with the way they've been treated by the South Wales Police and then they maybe go and see an AM, for example, do you think the AM should help them? What do you think the AM should do? And what do you think should happen to that AM if they ignore the person who has presented as a victim?

I can only assume that there is something that I'm genuinely not aware of that you're talking about and I can't answer something that I don't know what the specifics are. I'm disappointed that you've used an opportunity in a debate like this to make that point, genuinely.

It's the principle. What's disgusting is not helping people.

I really do think that this debate will help people.

The fact that we are not fully able to integrate policing into the referral pathways that I referred to and the support networks has a hugely detrimental impact on the survivor, any survivor, of a hideous crime like rape. If policing and justice were devolved, we'd be able to look at less traumatic ways of reporting that involve health practitioners, support groups—all these other services that are already working together—and avoid that cold examination room where things so often go wrong.

Just to be clear: rape is a hideous crime. It's not just a physical act. It is designed to eat away at someone psychologically, to rob them of their agency, to take control in the basest, most degrading way possible. Rape isn't about sexual desire or intimacy. It is about asserting power and taking someone's power away. 

We need a system of justice that gives survivors confidence to regain some of that power; a system that supports them alongside other services; a system that is closer to that principal meaning of justice—providing just and reasonable treatment, a recourse to what is fair. Now, there's no fairness in rape. It cannot be undone. But we as a society, an entire society, owe it to survivors to give them a system that shores them up, that begins the path to make things bearable again, that reminds them that there are people and structures in place to support them. Because the justice system we have now is just not good enough.

I want to thank Plaid Cymru for putting this debate forward, and particularly Leanne Wood, because it's hugely important and it's pleasing to hear that it's being supported, in the main, across the Chamber. Because it is clear that the system isn't working in the way that it ought to be for the victims.

I notice that Darren Millar's amendment asks us to note that the UK Government finds the widening gap between reports of rape and prosecutions deeply concerning and they're committed to restoring confidence in the justice system. I would suggest to the Tories that the first way that they could perhaps restore some of that equality within the justice system would be to restore some of the finances that have been taken out of the system that denies women or any victim legal aid, that denies people access to solicitors, and that also denies people access to the court system because they've closed down. I think that would be a very good place to start, rather than just expressing some words, because they won't change anything at all. In my own region, more than half the courts have closed down since 2012 and the legal aid cuts have created advice deserts. So, people not only can't access justice, they can't even access the information they need to seek that justice. So, we've got some fairly critical things going on there.

But one of the areas that I do want to focus on is the digital processing notices that have been rolled across England and Wales, which require sexual assault complainants to sign consent forms effectively allowing police to download and rifle through their mobile phones and all their other electronic devices. I would like anybody here to just consider for a moment how much of your personal life is stored on your phone. I think it's a massively invasive digital strip search, and I think that, whilst it has been just suggested that that could be used in cases, just because—. There was a case where they used that and somebody was found innocent of the crime. Like all things, there's been a knee-jerk reaction now and women—it is mostly women; we know that—now won't even go beyond their complaint status, because they refuse absolutely to give over their mobile phones and any other electronic devices. So, the number of false allegations, whilst I accept they are deeply damaging for those individuals, are just over 0.5 per cent of all allegations, and yet the complainants are increasingly being told that, if they don't comply with that data request, the police will drop that case. I think that that is absolutely outrageous.

The other thing that I want to move on and talk about is the Children's Society report that when children go missing, whether from home or from care, there should be a debriefing available to those children to seek and find out some answers as to what has happened when they've gone missing and perhaps to get underneath what has happened to them in the meantime.

But I think the biggest change that has to happen is the cultural change—the language that is used when you're reporting a rape case, the language that is used in the court room. And we've seen some really bad cases of that, where the woman or the victim is actually made out to be an individual who has asked to be raped. I don't know of any person anywhere who has asked to be raped. It isn't the case, because you wear a short skirt or a tight-fitting dress or high heels, that you've asked to be raped. I've yet to come across that person.

I equally believe that we need to think about the culture from within, and I absolutely agree with what Leanne has said about Alun Cairns, but I think we need to think about it here too. I do think that sexual abuse is now moving into individuals' homes through their computers, through devices, and I do think that when we have sexualised images of work colleagues put on there and put out there for the world to see, and we have a standards commissioner who says that is okay—. I would argue that it is definitely not okay, and it isn't okay, either, that it is the person who has been abused who has to take that case against and query it, but gets no information at all about how that is proceeding, but everybody knows that the perpetrator was kept fully informed. I think we need to look at our own systems as well, and imaging is important.

I'd like to thank Plaid for bringing this motion and I do agree with much of what Plaid have said today and what other Members have said. I think it's entirely right for people in this place to call out the abysmal conviction rates for rape and sexual abuse. The difficulties faced by victims of rape and sexual abuse are well known, and it appears the situation is worse now than it was 10 years ago. It's just as bad if not worse than it was when I was at university 20 years ago.

Many victims of rape and sexual abuse must feel utterly abandoned by the very people who are supposed to be there to protect them. How must those victims feel when they see the rape and sexual abuse of vulnerable girls in Rotherham and elsewhere go unpunished for years, or the perpetrators set a paltry sentence? How can they feel confident that justice will be done for them when they've seen other victims so appallingly let down?

I agree with much of Plaid's motion, and I agree with them that increasing conviction rates is important in preventing rape and sexual abuse. Only a proportion of rape and sexual abuse are reported. Of those, only a fraction result in a conviction. This is a perennial problem that academics and lawyers on both sides of the border and various women's groups and all sorts of different people have been wrestling with the decades. So, I do wish Plaid had, as part of their motion, proposed some actual policies and changes in the law to improve prosecution and conviction rates that we could examine. I know that you've come out with some suggestions during the debate, but, I'm sorry, that just isn't good enough, and the failure to include them in the motion just makes those proposals look like a bit of an afterthought. The meat and potatoes of your motion is about devolution. It seems that Plaid are more concerned about pushing their own political agenda. Their motion makes two references to increasing the Assembly's powers; it doesn't contain a single tangible suggestion that would improve detection and conviction rates for rape.

The issue of rape and sexual abuse is an extremely emotive one, which is why I suspect Plaid have chosen this subject to hang their campaign for future devolution upon. Plaid could have cited any number of crimes, but they chose the most emotive crime they could, without any regard to the victims and survivors across Wales. This motion is basically sending out a message to rape survivors that they're more likely to see justice served on their attacker if Wales had more independence. That argument is as tasteless and crass as it is unfounded. Tasteless and crass because rape victims are being used without their consent in a political argument that is essentially nothing to do with furthering justice for them, and unfounded because history shows us that, when a matter is devolved to this Government, far from improving, it gets worse. Both education and the NHS have been devolved to Wales for years, and every year are shown to be worse for the people of Wales than education and the NHS is for every other UK nation.

A while ago, I asked the First Minister if he agreed with me that the family court should never give fathers of children born from rape rights to see those children. For some reason, he refused to back my request—a refusal that I think any decent, functional family in Wales will find impossible to understand. Today Plaid has a chance to show that they're actually committed to helping rape victims in a tangible way, and that you use any additional powers that this place may have in the future to stop rapists having contact and influence on a child conceived through rape.

If, today, Plaid fail to explicitly support such a ban in their response to this debate, it will be clear to everyone that, as I suspect, this motion is more about furthering their desire for independence than it is about doing the right thing for victims of one of the cruellest crimes there are. So, Plaid, if this place were given the power, would you support a ban on fathers of children born from rape gaining access to those children? And in the meantime, will you join my call for such a ban to be introduced? A simple 'yes' or 'no' will suffice. Thank you.

I now call on the Deputy Minister to contribute to the debate—Jane Hutt.

Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. I do welcome this debate and I support the motion. Leanne Wood, you gave such a powerful opening speech—you laid out not only the statistics, the figures, but also highlighted high-profile cases.

Let's just look at those statistics again. Since 2016, there's been a 43 per cent rise in the number of rape allegations to the police, but the number of cases prosecuted by the CPS has fallen by 52 per cent. There's been a 23 per cent fall in the number of cases referred to the CPS for a decision by the police, and this reduction means that, while reports of rape to the police have nearly doubled, a significant number of these cases have not been referred to the CPS. So, I do look forward to seeing HM Crown Prosecution Service Inspectorate's review of what lies behind these figures.

It is vital that people feel that they can report an attack. We want the police to properly record these offences so the right action can be taken. It's clear and extremely concerning that the gap between reported rapes and prosecutions and convictions for rape has widened.

Llywydd, as long as rape and sexual violence remain taboo subjects it's much harder, as has been said today, for victims to report. And, when they do, they must be confident that they will be believed, that action will be taken, that their attackers will be held to account. And that's why this debate is so important. Those that commit these crimes must know that they won't get away with it, they will be prosecuted and they will be convicted. But the Director of Public Prosecutions has commissioned a review into the prosecution and conviction of sexual violence offences, and I've written to the DPP strongly welcoming the review, and I'll share my letter with Members, placing it in the Library.

Rape and sexual violence are about power and control, and our communications campaign on coercive control has driven an increase in calls to our Live Fear Free helpline. We've also seen a rise in the number of reports of coercive control across the Welsh police forces since the campaign was launched, and the next phase of the campaign will focus on control and sexual violence. I do thank Jenny Rathbone for speaking up about her experience and for drawing attention to the Q&A session organised by Bethan last week with Sally and David Challen; I hope some of you saw that publicity. As Jenny said, Sally was subjected to coercive control and she spoke up about the need to address this in schools. So, that's why we fund Hafan Cymru to teach about healthy relationships in school, and of course, as has been said, sexuality and relationships will be a cross-cutting area for the new curriculum.

Justice and policing aren't devolved to Wales. However, with crime and justice within my portfolio, I do work with the Welsh police forces on all aspects of crime that affect Welsh citizens, and the policing partnership board I chair brings together police and crime commissioners and chief constables from each of the four forces in Wales on a quarterly basis, and I will be raising concerns from this debate at our next meeting.

I'm glad the motion includes reference to sexual assault support services, and Rhun, you raised this, as indeed did Delyth. I just want to report on progress on this. The NHS is leading a multi-agency review of sexual assault referral centres provision, in collaboration with the police and crime commissioners, police forces and third sector, helping the police take an integrated approach to developing and monitoring service specifications for the procuring of forensic services until a forensic medical examination service can be established. Of course, counselling, as you've said, is critical for victims. It is available from organisations such as New Pathways and Ynys Saff, and directly through health board mental health services. Of course, Delyth Jewell drew attention to the trauma that victims go through, as did Joyce, and I think the issues that Joyce Watson has raised are very important, in terms of access to mobile phones. I was just going to say that I am aware that the CPS has issued guidance that only reasonable lines of inquiry should be followed, to avoid intrusion into witnesses' personal lives. But we know that that hasn't been the case, and we need to see that implemented.

Also, picking up on Joyce's point about children going missing in Wales, certainly the work that the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services is doing on this issue is crucial, and Cardiff University is likely to be working on a 'Keeping Safe?' research report that was published last year. The report of the Commission on Justice in Wales does highlight the fact that some victims of crime feel let down by the criminal justice system. They often lack confidence in the system. They fear the perpetrators. The commission work on this is very important, and we don't want their experiences, obviously, to become public knowledge that means that crimes are under-reported.

Also, the report does refer to our work, the Welsh Government's work, to develop and implement policies to tackle crime, working with both devolved and UK bodies, so, of course, the work we're doing on our Violence Against Women, Domestic Abuse and Sexual Violence (Wales) Act 2015 is crucial to that in terms of measuring increasing levels of reporting on abuse and ensuring that we have early interventions, evidence-based intervention, and increasing victim confidence and access to justice.

But the commission is right when it says that more needs to be done to support all victims of crime, and it's telling that the commission's unanimous conclusion, set out in the very first paragraph of its landmark report, is that the people of Wales are being let down by their justice system, and over the last 10 years—and Joyce referred to this—there have been significant cuts to funding across the justice system, including in policing and the Crown Prosecution Service, having a severe impact here in Wales. So, justice should be at the heart of Government and aligned with other policies, particularly those that are devolved to Wales. 

So, once again and finally, I welcome this debate and we will be supporting amendments 4 and 5 as well. The new Cabinet sub-committee on justice, established and chaired by the First Minister, on which I sit, together with the Counsel General and Brexit Minister, will provide strengthened leadership within Welsh Government on justice matters and in discussions with the UK Government. As yet, criminal justice is not devolved. I've highlighted some of the work we're doing in Wales with current powers and responsibilities, but, in line with your motion, I express my sympathy and solidarity with the survivors of rape and sexual assault, and this Government is committed to tackling these appalling crimes and to support victims. Diolch. 

Helen Mary Jones to reply to the debate. 

Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd, and I'd like to thank Members for taking part in this important debate. Rape is, of course, as some Members have already said, a particularly horrible crime. It is also true that most women will have had some experience that we didn't want, and all of us in this room will know somebody who's been raped. You may not know that you know somebody who's been raped, but you do, because sexual violence, particularly against women, is so pervasive in our culture.

There have been so many really good contributions that I'm not going to be able to respond to them all, but I will get through as many as I can. As the Deputy Minister has said, Leanne Wood set out the context, set out the facts, and they are chilling. Several Members mentioned the importance of the culture around these issues, and when we have children and young people growing up in a world that is poisoned by particularly horrible pornography, where boys and girls grow up thinking that things are normal when they are not—. A very clear message when Sally and David Challen came to our Assembly last week: when Sally was asked what could people have done, she said that part of her problem was she didn't realise that what was happening to her wasn't normal, and she said that what we need to do is two things, as has been pointed out—that all we need to take responsibility for not being bystanders and to ask questions when we see patterns of behaviour that we know are wrong. But we also need to start that very, very early so that our children don't grow up thinking that men coercing women and sometimes boys—other men and boys—into sexual acts is in any way normal. 

I think Mandy Jones's question about when did we start blaming the victims is a really valid one. Having been involved in active campaigns around these issues since the 1980s, Llywydd, I did believe that things were getting better, and I'm sadly convinced that now they are not and in some ways we are going backwards. I can't honestly say that, if my friend or my daughter came to me today having been raped and asked if she should report it—I cannot put my hand on my heart and say that I could safely encourage her to do that with the system as it is. And it pains me dreadfully to say that because, as Jenny has said, these experiences are so common, if you don't make a report, you're left wondering how many other women or other victims will suffer at the hands of this individual. But I cannot honestly say that I would say to my best friend, 'Go to the police', because of some of the experiences that we've heard.

I'd particularly like to pick up on some parts of Joyce Watson's contribution, because I think the way that we react to people making allegations of sexual violence, particularly women and girls, is so different from the way we react to other allegations of violent crime. I cannot imagine that a man who has come forward with an allegation of grievous bodily harm against another man would have his telephone confiscated, and would be expected to share all his private information. And I know, because I've had those conversations, as Joyce has, that that does deter young women and girls. We all have probably on our social media profiles things that may be complicated, things that we may want to keep private. Why would we ask a woman to share that? Why is that relevant, when we don't do that for any of the victims of other violent crimes?  

I want to respond to some of the points that have been made about false allegations. Obviously, any false allegation of any offence is completely unacceptable and it should be prosecuted, but we work in a culture where people assume that it is more likely that people who are making allegations of sexual violence are lying, and that is just not true. If we look at all the statistics and all the research that's ever been done, it shows that the level of false allegations about sexual offences is just a little bit lower than the levels of false allegations about all sorts of other things—about on a par in some studies, lower in others.

So, it's really important that we don't say or do anything that feeds into this culture that assumes that when women make these allegations they are lying, because, as Delyth and others have said, that is the underlying assumption. We do not make those assumptions about other victims of other violent crimes. And I'm afraid that this reflects a misogynistic culture. Unless we believe that women are more likely—and most victims are women, though some, of course, are men—to lie than men, then we cannot accept what's going on. And I won't reiterate the statistics that have already been put forward, but I think 3.2 per cent successful prosecutions is the latest figure, and this is only of those cases where allegations are made, and we've heard from many contributors to this debate how difficult it is to make those allegations, how difficult it is to come forward. 

Mark Isherwood in his contribution did, as he always does, make some very good points, but I'm afraid that I find I can't believe what the UK Government is saying now, when, since 2010, as Rhun ap Iorwerth pointed out, the Ministry of Justice budget has been cut by a third. Now, you cannot successfully prosecute, and we don't know—.The Minister's mentioned the review; others have mentioned the review; Mark did himself. And that is very welcome, because there will be complex factors around why the conviction level has dropped, but part of the conviction level dropping will be because the Crown Prosecution Service don't have the resources to go after the more difficult cases. So, if they are picking off the low-hanging fruit, some of the reason for that, I'm sure, will be because resources are so tight. So, until we see more resource into the system, I'm afraid I'm not really very interested in what the central Government is saying. 

I want to touch on Delyth's contribution, because what she said about the shame, the stigma, the fear that people have around reporting is so important, and we do need to change that. And we do need to ensure that our response does not happen in a vacuum, and this is the reason why we support the devolution of criminal justice, so that we can have a consistent approach. I think it was Mark who said that crime is no respecter of borders. Well, no, it isn't, but the way in which we deal with crime is a respecter of borders; it is a political matter—with a small 'p', not a party political matter. And I believe—and I'm glad that the Government is supporting our motion—that we have to have a consistent approach across public services, which we can only have if all those public services are openly and democratically answerable in the same direction. 

I'm very sorry if anybody thinks that bringing this forward is a party political or politically-motivated matter. All I can say is that I and, I know, my colleagues have been contacted today by dozens of survivors, some who've spoken out. One particular survivor contacted me after she heard me and Leanne Wood comment on these issues publicly. And they have thanked us for bringing this forward. And I'm not really concerned if there are some people in this Chamber who are cynical about our motives, because what those survivors think matters to me a great deal more than that. 

There is so much more that I would like to say; I know I don't have time. I just want to comment briefly on the Deputy Minister's contribution—absolutely know her personal convictions on these matters, and I meant also to pay tribute to Joyce Watson for her years of campaigning on these issues, similarly to my Plaid Cymru colleagues. But what I would say to the Minister is that we must ensure—. We don't have the levers yet. Powers are not yet devolved, and we will need to have those debates and ensure that they are. But there are things that we can do now, and one of the things that the Welsh Government could do now is to really invest, picking up on Rhun ap Iorwerth's contribution about the lack of access to counselling. This is something that the Welsh Government could do now, needs to do now. We have seen too many services—local, survivor-led services—losing their funding to bigger organisations who will not understand the victims in the way that they do. 

And I will end this contribution, Llywydd, and thank you for your indulgence, by simply saying that we must all do what we can. It is not good enough for us to sit around and wait for the criminal justice services to be devolved. And we, whose job it is to hold the Government to account, must scrutinise you on how you use your powers now. And I just want to end by saying, to the women, to the victims: I believe you, and I think most of the people in this room do too.

The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] I will defer voting under this item until voting time. 

And we will now have voting time; unless three Members wish for the bell to be rung, I will start the vote.

The vote is on the Plaid Cymru motion on rape and sexual abuse. I call for a vote on the motion unamended, tabled in the name of Rhun ap Iorwerth. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 35, two abstentions, 12 against. The motion is, therefore, agreed.

Therefore, we now proceed to the short debate, and the short debate today is to be presented by Mick Antoniw, and I'll allow people to leave the Chamber quietly.

If people can leave the Chamber quietly, we still have business continuing, and I call on Mick Antoniw to propose the debate in his name—Mick Antoniw.

Thank you, Llywydd. Throughout history, there have been men and women—whether through science and learning, through culture, the arts, trade, innovation or political struggle—who have advanced the interests of their nation and its profile in a way that achieves international recognition. Their achievements often have a world-wide impact and are duly recognised as such.

In Wales, we have many such heroes, but sadly many have not been given the recognition they deserve. In fact, many, to this day, remain unknown in Wales other than to a small number of interested people. To some extent, Welsh achievement has been camouflaged by an overbearing UK or British identity, but whatever the reason we need to correct the record and assert Wales's proud contribution to world events.

I hope the change in our school curriculum will contribute to an increased awareness, but I believe there is also a role for this Parliament to help ensure Welsh heroes get the recognition they deserve. This is not for the purpose of some sort of personality cult, but in order to ensure that Wales's contribution to international events, history and development is properly recognised, as is the case with most other countries.

I only have time to focus on a few, but I believe recognition of these will help start the process. This year was the eightieth anniversary of one of the great heroic acts during the Spanish civil war. On that day, Welshman and Cardiffian Captain Archibald Dickson rescued and saved the lives of 2,638 men, women and children fleeing Spain and General Franco's approaching fascist troops. A blockade of the port of Alicante by Italian destroyers and the threat of German bombers led to scenes of chaos and desperation. Captain Dickson of the SS Stanbrook, witnessing these tragic scenes, in an act of utmost bravery, left his cargo behind and instead took on board the refugees. Ten minutes into the journey came the sound of explosions and bombs landing near the Stanbrook. Yet, Captain Dickson broke the blockade, undoubtedly saving many lives. In Alicante, there is a memorial to Captain Dickson in Spanish, Welsh and English and plans are in hand to unveil an identical plaque in the Pierhead on the Assembly estate. 

Llywydd, in November each year in Ukraine members of the international community mark the day of remembrance of the victims of Stalin's artificial famine of 1932-33, known as the Holodomor, which in Ukrainian means death by hunger. It was a famine created by Stalin to enforce collectivisation of agriculture and to break Ukrainian resistance to Russian Soviet rule in Ukraine. There were more than 4,000 uprisings against this policy and these were ruthlessly suppressed. In December 1932, the central committee of the Communist Party ordered all grain, including sowing seeds, to be seized. Villages that failed to co-operate were blacklisted and deliberately starved to death, and an estimated 1 million people deported to Siberia. An estimated 4 million to 6 million people perished, and it's estimated around two-thirds of children perished. Precise figures are impossible because Stalin ordered all records to be destroyed.

Welsh-speaking journalist Gareth Jones, born in Aberystwyth, buried in Barry, witnessed the Holodomor and, alongside Malcolm Muggeridge, was one of the few journalists with the courage to report on the scale of the famine and its causes. He is regarded in Ukraine as a hero, where he is honoured, and there is soon to be a street in the capital of Kyiv named after him. On 31 January in the Chapter cinema in Cardiff, BAFTA Cymru will be hosting a Welsh premier showing of the new film Mr. Jones, starring actor James Norton, followed by a question-and-answer session. Gareth Jones is recognised abroad, but barely known in Wales. But he is truly a Welsh hero and exemplar of ethical journalism.

John Hughes, Welsh industrialist and engineer from Merthyr Tydfil, travelled with a team of Welsh miners and engineers to Donetsk in Ukraine, then part of the Russian empire, to establish a coal and steel industry in a place that was to become one of the greatest steel and coal producing cities of the world, named after him at the time as Hughesovka. There is a statue to him in the centre of the city, but I'm not aware of any statue or recognition of him in Wales, despite his international stature.

Llywydd, these are just three relatively unknown heroes, but there are many more: Arthur Horner, president of the South Wales Miners' Federation, former member of the Irish Citizen Army during the Irish revolution, who gained an international reputation as an advocate for miners and their working conditions across the world; Bertrand Russell, Nobel Prize winner in literature, internationally renowned writer, philosopher, humanist and champion of freedom of thought; Francis Lewis from Llandaff, signatory to the US declaration of independence; Henry Richard, Tregaron, secretary to the Peace Society and campaigner for the abolition of slavery; Thomas Jefferson, author of the declaration of independence, whose family came from Snowdonia—in fact, around a third of the signatories of the American declaration of independence were of Welsh descent; Robert Owen, from Newtown, internationally recognised as one of the early founders and promoters of co-operativism, of whom Friedrich Engels said, 'Every social movement, every real advance...on behalf of the workers links itself on to the name of Robert Owen'; and many others who went on to mark international success in the foundation of trade unions and social movements internationally.

Llywydd, my intention today in this short debate is not only to highlight the importance of recognising the contribution of these Welsh heroes to our history, but to underline how important they are to our future as role models for today's generation and generations to come.

I didn't mention Paul Robeson. Of course, he wasn't Welsh by birth, but in many ways he's a very famous Welshman, insofar as he is recognised probably more in Wales than he even is in his home country, and maybe there should be a statue to Paul Robeson in the capital of Wales.

Every nation needs its heroes, and now more than ever. The challenges facing today's generations are immense. From climate change to the search for new antibiotics, from the rise of fascism to the pollution of our oceans, it is a new generation of heroes that Wales and the world now needs, and I believe that in part they will find their inspiration in the past. 

Thank you. Can I call on the Deputy Minister for Culture, Sport and Tourism to reply to the debate? Dafydd Elis-Thomas.

Diolch yn fawr, Dirprwy Lywydd. It gives me great pleasure to respond to this debate. A short debate is one of our more creative pieces of Standing Orders, in that it allows Members to choose a topic and then it falls to any appropriate Minister that is available to respond to the debate. But I'm particularly pleased to be able to do that today because, I believe, by choosing to celebrate internationalists from Wales who have made an undoubted impact on the international scene, you have made a significant contribution to the rewriting of the national curriculum for our own country.

Because I do think that it is part of the process of greater autonomy that the nations and regions who achieve that autonomy will seek not only to rewrite the present and the future, but also to rewrite the past; understanding it in a way in which what would have appeared oppositional or marginal or even extreme in some other perspective does in fact represent a tradition that we need to celebrate as we galvanise our own resources of thought for what faces us, as you described so well at the end of your remarks.

That's why I think you're absolutely right to say that Welsh achievement has in the past been camouflaged by 'overbearing UK or British identity', to quote your own words, and I think it is time that we reasserted the distinctiveness of our heritage, in particular to redefine the contribution that Wales has made to internationalism. That includes the legacy of the peace movement and the support for the League of Nations, and going back to the establishment of the Temple of Peace here in our own capital, through to the long history of the peace movement, of the anti-nuclear movement, of the women's movement. All these are aspects of our history that have international significance.

I'm glad that you selected your—not quite top 10, but you were almost there, I think, of heroes. And I'm also glad to see the word 'heroes' used not in the context of some individualistic achievement, as sometimes does happen, even with sporting heroes and other heroes, but that we celebrate the fact that these heroes come from a community, from a train of thought, from a social experience, which they then take to achieve for themselves. But they're not just achieving for themselves, they're achieving for the culture that they come from.

I have always had a strong personal interest in the civil war in the Spanish nations, and I was privileged in my own life to have known and had very interesting conversations with Tom Jones, who was universally known—in Welsh, certainly, and probably in English as well in Wales—as Twm Sbaen. His experience and his contribution, not only during the conflict in Spain but to the politics of the trade union movement and of the left and of internationalism in Wales, is a very distinguished one.

I was also pleased that you mentioned the events in Ukraine, with which obviously you have a strong personal and family connection, and I think we still have much to learn about the struggle of Ukraine throughout the nineteenth century and from the twentieth century to the twenty-first century. To select the figure of Gareth Jones reminds us again of the importance of independent journalism and the ability of people to speak out, along with, as you've described, Malcolm Muggeridge. I was not aware that there is in Kyiv a street named after him, and I was very pleased to hear that and I look forward to supporting your attempts and others' to ensure that he is recognised as well equally in Wales.

John Hughes, again, a distinguished meteorologist and engineer. How many Welsh people or Welsh-born people have established a city? I can't think of one offhand. No doubt there is some significant nonconformist figure that should have come to my mind. Maybe, actually, it would be that the Mormons would be the equivalent, in Salt Lake City. But certainly, to have done that and to have established a manufacturing centre is a distinguished contribution.

And then, coming closer to our time, through the history of the miners' union, we come to Bertrand Russell now. I'm pleased to say in this Chamber that I did actually have the honour of meeting Bertrand Russell in the context of the peace movement, in the context of the contribution that he made with his famous telegram sent from Penrhyndeudraeth to Washington and Moscow at the time of the Cuban missile crisis, which was a very frightening period for me as a relatively young man and for many other people. He was certainly a great philosopher and a great humanist. I don't think he was much of a Welsh nationalist, but I can't criticise him for that.

Clearly, the other international figures that you mentioned: there is a strong urge, especially among my colleague the Minister for international relations, that we celebrate Robert Owen properly, and we will do that. But it's also important that in those celebrations we're able to recognise that internationalism as it was promoted by these sons and daughters of Wales is something that we need to recapture today. This place is not just about devolution for Wales, it's about what Wales can continue to contribute to the international scene.

Diolch yn fawr. That brings today's proceedings to a close. Thank you.