Y Cyfarfod Llawn - Y Bumed Senedd
Plenary - Fifth Senedd
23/01/2019Cynnwys
Contents
Cyfarfu’r Cynulliad am 13:30 gyda’r Llywydd (Elin Jones) yn y Gadair.
The Assembly met at 13:30 with the Llywydd (Elin Jones) in the Chair.
Galw pawb i drefn.
I call everybody to order.
Yr eitem gyntaf ar ein hagenda ni y prynhawn yma yw'r cwestiynau i Weinidog yr Amgylchedd, Ynni a Materion Gwledig, ac mae'r cwestiwn cyntaf gan Huw Irranca-Davies.
The first item on our agenda this afternoon is questions to the Minister for Environment, Energy and Rural Affairs, and the first question is from Huw Irranca-Davies.
1. A wnaiff y Gweinidog ddatganiad am ddull Cyfoeth Naturiol Cymru o ailgoedwigo mewn ardaloedd yng Nghymoedd De Cymru sydd wedi'u dinoethi gan y clefyd llarwydd? OAQ53261
1. Will the Minister make a statement on the Natural Resources Wales approach to reforestation in areas in the South Wales valleys denuded by larch disease? OAQ53261
Thank you. Wales has suffered unprecedented levels of phytophthora ramorum disease, which has forced clearance of large areas of larch, especially in the south Wales Valleys. NRW is restocking these woodland areas using a mixture of species that are appropriate to each location. Wales will then have a more resilient and varied woodland.
Diolch. Mae Cymru wedi dioddef lefelau digynsail o glefyd phytophthora ramorum, sydd wedi golygu y bu’n rhaid clirio ardaloedd helaeth o goed llarwydd, yn enwedig yng Nghymoedd de Cymru. Mae Cyfoeth Naturiol Cymru yn ailstocio'r coetiroedd hyn gan ddefnyddio cymysgedd o rywogaethau sy'n briodol ym mhob lleoliad. Bydd hynny’n golygu y bydd gan Gymru goetir mwy gwydn ac amrywiol.
I thank the Minister for that response. It was very encouraging to see one of the outcomes of the Valleys taskforce work was the idea of a south Wales Valleys woodland and park that would spread across the whole of the Valleys from east to west. Of course, there's amazing potential with that, but the denudation through larch disease has had a significant impact, and I see it in the Llynfi, the Garw and the Ogmore valleys. And I'm wondering, in their approach to reforestation, what discussions, what consultation does NRW do with local communities, what does it do with local landowners, local businesses, including, potentially, if it gets up and running, the Afan adventure park at the top of David Rees's constituency and mine, which has been totally scalped because of larch disease, but they anticipate bringing there, if they get through the planning permission, a Center Parcs with adrenaline, but it will need that reforestation to make it work? So, what support can you give to local communities, to businesses, to engage with the reforestation programme?
Diolch i'r Gweinidog am ei hymateb. Roedd yn galonogol iawn gweld mai un o ganlyniadau gwaith tasglu'r Cymoedd oedd y syniad o goetir a pharc Cymoedd de Cymru a fyddai'n ymestyn ar hyd y Cymoedd i gyd o'r dwyrain i'r gorllewin. Wrth gwrs, mae potensial anhygoel ynghlwm wrth hynny, ond mae'r dinoethi yn sgil y clefyd llarwydd wedi cael effaith sylweddol, a gallaf weld hynny yng nghymoedd Llynfi, Garw ac Ogwr. O ran eu dull o ailgoedwigo, tybed pa drafodaethau, pa waith ymgynghori y mae Cyfoeth Naturiol Cymru yn ei wneud gyda chymunedau lleol, beth y maent yn ei wneud gyda thirfeddianwyr lleol, busnesau lleol, gan gynnwys, o bosibl, os daw'n weithredol, parc antur Afan ym mhen uchaf etholaeth David Rees a fy un i, ardal sydd wedi’i dinoethi’n llwyr o ganlyniad i’r clefyd llarwydd, ond os cânt ganiatâd cynllunio, maent yn bwriadu agor Center Parcs gydag adrenalin yno, ond bydd angen y gwaith ailgoedwigo er mwyn i’r syniad weithio? Felly, pa gymorth y gallwch ei roi i gymunedau lleol, i fusnesau, i ymgysylltu â'r rhaglen ailgoedwigo?
Thank you. I do appreciate that having to fell so much woodland in the south Wales Valleys within such a short timescale has had a really devastating impact on the area, and I don't think it's something that NRW would certainly have wanted to do under normal circumstances. NRW do try to minimise the impact of felling on local communities and businesses through having engagement with local communities, and I know they hold public meetings, they hold drop-in sessions as part of their forest operations, so that they can share their proposals with people and also seek their views on them. I certainly would recommend, if you know of any specific community or even individual constituents who would like that level of engagement with NRW, to please contact them, and I'm sure they would engage to see what their views were on proposals for the woodland estate.
Diolch. Rwy'n derbyn bod gorfod cwympo cymaint o goetir yng Nghymoedd de Cymru o fewn amser mor fyr wedi cael effaith ddinistriol iawn ar yr ardal, ac yn sicr, ni chredaf ei fod yn rhywbeth y byddai Cyfoeth Naturiol Cymru wedi bod yn awyddus i’w wneud o dan amgylchiadau arferol. Mae Cyfoeth Naturiol Cymru yn ceisio lleihau effaith cwympo coed ar gymunedau a busnesau lleol drwy ymgysylltu â chymunedau lleol, a gwn eu bod yn cynnal cyfarfodydd cyhoeddus, maent yn cynnal sesiynau galw heibio fel rhan o'u gwaith coedwigaeth, fel y gallant rannu eu hargymhellion gyda phobl yn ogystal â gofyn eu barn. Yn sicr, os gwyddoch am unrhyw gymuned benodol neu hyd yn oed etholwyr unigol sy’n awyddus i ymgysylltu â Cyfoeth Naturiol Cymru ar y lefel honno, buaswn yn argymell ichi gysylltu â hwy, ac rwy'n siŵr y byddent yn ymgysylltu er mwyn clywed eu barn ar gynigion ar gyfer yr ystâd goetir.
Yes, it's a very sad sight, and I'm pleased to hear your answer to Huw Irranca-Davies. But, I think, having looked at some of the photographs of how the replanting is being done, some of these mixed saplings are really quite small. And I was wondering if you'd be interested in speaking to the education Minister about the opportunity for children and young people in schools to actually perhaps be part of the replanting plans. I presume it has to go through NRW and a range of other people, but, in terms of this representing a more historically accurate landscape for Wales, there are a lot of places, particularly in the new curriculum, where this could fit quite happily—anything from history through to science, through to anything that's in the well-being area of learning. Thank you.
Ie, mae'n olygfa ddigalon iawn, ac rwy'n falch o glywed eich ateb i Huw Irranca-Davies. Ond wedi edrych ar rai ffotograffau o'r modd y gwneir y gwaith ailblannu, mae rhai o'r coed ifanc cymysg hyn yn eithaf bach. Ac roeddwn yn meddwl tybed a fyddai gennych ddiddordeb mewn siarad â'r Gweinidog Addysg ynglŷn â’r cyfle i blant a phobl ifanc mewn ysgolion fod yn rhan o'r cynlluniau ailblannu. Rwy'n cymryd bod yn rhaid i hynny fynd drwy Cyfoeth Naturiol Cymru ac amrywiaeth o bobl eraill, ond o ran bod hyn yn cynrychioli tirwedd fwy hanesyddol gywir i Gymru, mae sawl man, yn enwedig yn y cwricwlwm newydd, lle y gallai hyn ffitio'n eithaf taclus—unrhyw beth o hanes i wyddoniaeth, i unrhyw beth ym maes dysgu llesiant. Diolch.
I certainly think that's a very good suggestion from Suzy Davies, and I'd be very happy to speak to my colleague Kirsty Williams about it.
Yn sicr, credaf fod hwnnw’n awgrym da iawn gan Suzy Davies, ac rwy’n fwy na pharod i siarad â fy nghyd-Weinidog Kirsty Williams ynglŷn â hynny.
Minister, you'll be aware of the correspondence that you've had between yourself and my colleague Elin Jones with regard to concerns of the residents around the Hafod Estate near Aberystwyth about the nature of the removal of the trees. You'll recall Elin Jones raising concerns with you about the use of pesticides and people's concerns about that potentially affecting both other wildlife and the water table, since many of the homes in that area receive their water from wells rather than from main supplies. You were kind enough to reply to Elin, and I would invite you today to put on record your reassurance to that community, and to any others who may be concerned across Wales about the nature of control, that there is no reason to fear either for human health because of contamination to the water table, or because of any risks to wildlife.
Weinidog, fe fyddwch yn ymwybodol o'r ohebiaeth a gawsoch gyda fy nghyd-Aelod Elin Jones ynglŷn â phryderon y trigolion o gwmpas Ystâd yr Hafod ger Aberystwyth mewn perthynas â natur y gwaith o gwympo’r coed. Fe fyddwch yn cofio Elin Jones yn codi pryderon gyda chi ynglŷn â’r defnydd o blaladdwyr a phryderon pobl ynghylch y posibilrwydd y gallai hynny effeithio ar fywyd gwyllt arall a'r lefel trwythiad, gan fod llawer o'r cartrefi yn yr ardal honno yn cael eu dŵr o ffynhonnau yn hytrach nag o'r prif gyflenwadau. Roeddech yn ddigon caredig i ymateb i Elin, a hoffwn eich gwahodd heddiw i gofnodi eich sicrwydd i'r gymuned honno, ac i unrhyw un arall a allai fod yn bryderus ledled Cymru ynglŷn â natur y gwaith rheoli, nad oes unrhyw reswm i ofni, naill ai o ran iechyd dynol yn sgil halogi’r lefel trwythiad, neu o ran unrhyw beryglon i fywyd gwyllt.
Yes. Thank you for the opportunity to express that reassurance.
Ie. Diolch am y cyfle i fynegi'r sicrwydd hwnnw.
Minister, clearly the Afan valley was one of the first and one of the most severely affected by the larch disease, and my colleague the Member for Ogmore has highlighted the opportunities that come as a consequence of reforestation. Have you had discussions with your colleague the Minister for Economy and Transport about how we can build up the economies of those valleys? Tourism is an agenda that clearly is going to take those valleys forward, but if we don't have the reforestation and if the plans aren't established, that's going to take a hit.
Weinidog, yn amlwg, cwm Afan oedd un o'r mannau cyntaf i gael eu heffeithio gan y clefyd llarwydd ac un o'r mannau yr effeithiwyd arnynt yn fwyaf difrifol, ac mae fy nghyd-Aelod, yr Aelod dros Ogwr, wedi tynnu sylw at y cyfleoedd a ddaw yn sgil ailgoedwigo. A ydych wedi cael trafodaethau gyda'ch cyd-Weinidog, Gweinidog yr Economi a Thrafnidiaeth, ynglŷn â sut y gallwn wella economïau'r cymoedd hynny? Mae twristiaeth yn agenda sy'n amlwg yn mynd i roi hwb i’r cymoedd hynny, ond os na fyddwn yn cael y gwaith ailgoedwigo ac os nad yw'r cynlluniau yn cael eu sefydlu, bydd hynny'n cael ei effeithio.
I haven't had specific discussions with the Minister for Economy and Transport, but I'd be very happy to do so. Obviously, my interest in this area is about restocking the woodland areas, as I've just answered to Huw Irranca-Davies. And it's really, I think, important that the mixture of species of trees is very appropriate to each location. I know not every area between your two constituencies will require the same species of trees. So, I think it's really important that that is very specifically appropriate. Again, the objectives for restocking vary according to local forest resource plans. But, as I say, you make a very good point, I think, about tourism, which I'd be very happy to discuss with Ken Skates.
Nid wyf wedi cael trafodaethau penodol gyda Gweinidog yr Economi a Thrafnidiaeth, ond rwy’n fwy na pharod i wneud hynny. Yn amlwg, mae fy niddordeb yn y maes yn ymwneud ag ailstocio'r coetiroedd, fel y dywedais yn fy ateb i Huw Irranca-Davies yn awr. A chredaf ei bod yn wirioneddol bwysig fod y cymysgedd o rywogaethau coed yn briodol iawn i bob lleoliad. Gwn na fydd angen yr un rhywogaethau coed ar bob ardal rhwng eich dwy etholaeth. Felly, credaf ei bod yn bwysig iawn fod hynny'n briodol mewn mannau penodol iawn. Unwaith eto, mae'r amcanion mewn perthynas ag ailstocio yn amrywio yn ôl cynlluniau adnoddau coedwigaeth lleol. Ond fel y dywedaf, rydych yn gwneud pwynt da iawn, yn fy marn i, ynglŷn â thwristiaeth, ac rwy’n fwy na pharod i drafod hynny gyda Ken Skates.
2. A wnaiff y Gweinidog ddatganiad am y cynnydd y mae Hybu Cig Cymru wedi'i wneud o ran datblygu marchnadoedd ar gyfer cig coch Cymru y tu hwnt i'r UE? OAQ53244
2. Will the Minister make a statement on what progress Hybu Cig Cymru have made in developing markets for Welsh red meat beyond the EU? OAQ53244
Thank you. Welsh Government is investing £1.5 million for HCC to maintain European markets, and develop trade further afield. As a direct result, new business has been secured in Singapore. I welcome recent announcements of the lifting of restrictions on importing UK beef and lamb to Japan, and lamb to India and Saudi Arabia, where further HCC activity is planned.
Diolch. Mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn buddsoddi £1.5 miliwn fel y gall Hybu Cig Cymru gynnal marchnadoedd Ewropeaidd, a datblygu masnach ymhellach i ffwrdd. O ganlyniad uniongyrchol i hynny, mae busnes newydd wedi’i sicrhau yn Singapôr. Croesawaf gyhoeddiadau diweddar ynghylch codi cyfyngiadau ar fewnforio cig eidion a chig oen y DU i Japan, a chig oen i India a Saudi Arabia, lle y mae rhagor o weithgarwch Hybu Cig Cymru wedi'i gynllunio.
I'm pleased to report in that context that, last week, I wrote to the Minister following a meeting I had with an Omani businessman, who is interested in importing Welsh beef and lamb to Oman. As we're looking to diversify our exporting markets, does the Minister welcome this, and will she arrange for whoever is appropriate to meet with them, to facilitate this mutually beneficial trade?
Rwy'n falch o ddweud, yn y cyd-destun hwnnw, fy mod wedi ysgrifennu at y Gweinidog yr wythnos diwethaf yn dilyn cyfarfod a gefais gyda dyn busnes o Oman, sy’n awyddus i fewnforio cig eidion a chig oen Cymru i Oman. A ninnau'n gobeithio arallgyfeirio ein marchnadoedd allforio, a yw’r Gweinidog yn croesawu hyn, ac a wnaiff hi drefnu eu bod yn cyfarfod â’r unigolyn priodol i hwyluso'r fasnach hon sydd o fudd i'r ddwy ochr?
Thank you. I certainly have had sight of your letter. I thought I had signed a letter back to you, telling you what action I planned, and I think that was to arrange a meeting with HCC, to see if there were opportunities to take that forward.
Diolch. Yn sicr, rwyf wedi gweld eich llythyr. Roeddwn yn credu fy mod wedi llofnodi llythyr yn ôl atoch, yn dweud pa gamau a gynlluniwyd gennyf, a chredaf fod hwnnw’n cynnwys trefnu cyfarfod gyda Hybu Cig Cymru, er mwyn gweld a oes cyfleoedd i’w cael i fwrw ymlaen â'r gwaith hwnnw.
Mae'n ddiddorol iawn, yn tydi, gweld marchnadoedd newydd yn cael eu datblygu ar hyd a lled y byd, tra rydym ni'n dal yn aelodau o'r Undeb Ewropeaidd? A gwag iawn ydy sôn am gyfleoedd o adael yr Undeb Ewropeaidd, ac, yn wir, dŷn ni'n gwybod cymaint o gyfleon sydd yna i'r diwydiant cig, y diwydiant bwyd, a'r economi wledig yn gyfan gwbl, o fod yn rhan o strwythurau Ewropeaidd, yn cynnwys y cronfeydd strwythurol. A dwi wedi gweld ymchwil newydd sydd wedi cael ei ryddhau heddiw gan y Conference of Peripheral Maritime Regions—y corff y mae'r Llywodraeth yma yng Nghymru yn rhan ohono—sy'n dweud bod Cymru yn wynebu colli allan ar symiau mawr o'r cronfeydd rhanbarthol mewn blynyddoedd i ddod. Mae'n nhw'n amcangyfrif, pe bai'r Deyrnas Gyfunol yn aros yn yr Undeb Ewropeaidd, y byddai'n gymwys i dderbyn £13 biliwn o gyllid rhanbarthol rhwng 2021 a 2027, sy'n 22 y cant o gynnydd o'i gymharu â'r cyfnod 2014-20. Ydy'r Gweinidog yn cytuno efo fi, felly, bod hyn yn cryfhau eto y ddadl dros gael pleidlais y bobl, er mwyn cael cyfle i wneud yr achos dros gynnal hyn, er mwyn ein diwydiannau gwledig ni?
It’s very interesting to see new markets being developed across the world whilst we are still members of the European Union. And any talk of opportunities of leaving the European Union is empty talk, and we know just how many opportunities there are for the meat industry, for the food industry more widely, and the rural economy more widely, to be part of European structures, including the structural funds. I have seen new research released today by the Conference of Peripheral Maritime Regions—the body that the Government here in Wales is part of—that says that Wales faces losing out on huge sums from the regional structural funds in coming years. They estimate that, if the UK were to remain within the European Union, it would qualify for £13 billion of regional funding between 2021 and 2027, which is 22 per cent of an increase as compared to the period between 2014-20. Does the Minister agree with me, therefore, that this strengthens once again the argument for having a people’s vote, in order to have the chance to make the case for maintaining this for our rural industries?
I'm not quite sure where developing markets for Welsh red meat comes into that question, but I absolutely agree with you about the amount of funding that we will lose. And across my portfolio, you'll be aware of the significant EU funding that comes in. I was just looking at a LIFE project before, and about the funding that those sorts of projects has brought into Wales, and the benefits to our environment. So we're still hopeful that we're certainly not going to have a 'no deal'—we think 'no deal' should be off the table. But even with the deal that was proposed by the Prime Minister, I think this will have a dreadful impact on our jobs and economy.
Nid wyf yn hollol siŵr sut y mae'r cwestiwn hwnnw'n ymwneud â datblygu marchnadoedd ar gyfer cig coch Cymru, ond rwy'n cytuno'n llwyr â chi ynghylch faint o gyllid y byddwn yn ei golli. Ac ar draws fy mhortffolio, fe fyddwch yn gwybod am y cyllid sylweddol a ddaw o’r UE. Roeddwn yn edrych ar brosiect LIFE yn gynt, a’r cyllid y mae'r mathau hynny o brosiectau wedi’i ddarparu i Gymru, a'r manteision i'n hamgylchedd. Felly rydym yn dal i fod yn obeithiol na fyddwn yn cael Brexit ‘dim bargen’—rydym o’r farn na ddylai ‘dim bargen’ fod yn opsiwn. Ond hyd yn oed gyda'r cytundeb a gynigiwyd gan y Prif Weinidog, credaf y bydd hyn yn cael effaith ofnadwy ar ein swyddi a'r economi.
Cwestiynau nawr gan lefarwyr y pleidiau. Llefarydd y Ceidwadwyr, Andrew R.T. Davies.
Questions now from the party spokespeople. The Conservative spokesperson, Andrew R.T. Davies.
Thank you, Presiding Officer. Minister, you now have, obviously, overall responsibility for the rural affairs and environment portfolio, and, in particular, Natural Resources Wales. When I've gone around, since taking over the shadow brief, talking to the forestry sector in particular, they are deeply concerned about the management of the forestry estate in Wales, and in particular about their ability to access commercial timber so their operations aren't jeopardised in the future. This is emphasised today with a letter that has appeared in the press—and I appreciate the Welsh Government don't comment on leaks—but, from my personal experience of going around, everything in that letter bears out on the ground. And when you see figures of 12,000 jobs and £100 million-worth of investment, these are big numbers, and unless NRW get their act together and start delivering a forestry sector that can supply our timber businesses, we really will be losing much of this investment and many of these jobs. What confidence can you give us here today that you have confidence in the way NRW are taking forward the forestry sector here in Wales and, in particular, are addressing the concerns that have been expressed to me personally and in the letter that's appeared today?
Diolch, Lywydd. Weinidog, bellach, yn amlwg, mae gennych gyfrifoldeb cyffredinol am y portffolio materion gwledig a'r amgylchedd, ac yn benodol, am Cyfoeth Naturiol Cymru. Wrth deithio o gwmpas ers i mi ymgymryd â’r briff ar ran yr wrthblaid, a siarad â'r sector coedwigaeth yn benodol, maent yn pryderu'n fawr ynglŷn â'r modd y rheolir yr ystâd goedwigaeth yng Nghymru, ac yn arbennig ynglŷn â’u gallu i gael hyd i bren masnachol fel nad yw eu gweithrediadau yn cael eu peryglu yn y dyfodol. Amlygir hyn heddiw mewn llythyr sydd wedi ymddangos yn y wasg—ac rwy'n deall nad yw Llywodraeth Cymru yn gwneud sylwadau ar wybodaeth a ddatgelwyd yn answyddogol—ond o'm profiad personol o deithio o gwmpas, mae popeth yn y llythyr hwnnw'n wir ar lawr gwlad. A phan fyddwch yn gweld ffigurau yn nodi 12,000 o swyddi, a gwerth £100 miliwn o fuddsoddiad, mae'r rhain yn niferoedd mawr, ac oni bai bod Cyfoeth Naturiol Cymru yn cael gwell siâp ar bethau ac yn dechrau sicrhau bod y sector coedwigaeth yn gallu cyflenwi ein busnesau pren, byddwn yn colli llawer o’r buddsoddiad hwn a llawer o'r swyddi hyn. Pa sicrwydd y gallwch ei roi inni yma heddiw fod gennych hyder yn y ffordd y mae Cyfoeth Naturiol Cymru yn gwasanaethu’r sector coedwigaeth yma yng Nghymru, ac yn benodol, yn mynd i'r afael â'r pryderon a fynegwyd wrthyf yn bersonol ac yn y llythyr a ymddangosodd heddiw?
Thank you. You're quite right—I don't like commenting on leaked correspondence. However, I can confirm to you and to the Chamber that I have received that letter from Confor, and obviously I'll be responding to it in due course. You will be aware, obviously, that I've been in this portfolio now for nearly three years, and I have had concerns around NRW and the way that they've dealt with forestry. However, I do have confidence in NRW.
Just last week, I met with the chief executive and the interim chair to discuss this specific issue, and you'll be aware that I've replaced half the board, for instance, with new members. They've just come in at the tail end of last year. So, obviously, I've had discussions with them. You'll be aware that the chief executive and the interim chair will be in front of the Public Accounts Committee. So, I'm very encouraged that the way forward now is appropriate and that the interim chair and the chief executive absolutely have this as a priority.
Diolch. Rydych yn llygad eich lle—nid wyf yn hoff o wneud sylwadau ar ohebiaeth a ddatgelwyd yn answyddogol. Fodd bynnag, gallaf gadarnhau i chi ac i'r Siambr fy mod wedi derbyn y llythyr hwnnw gan Confor, ac yn amlwg, byddaf yn ymateb iddo maes o law. Yn amlwg, fe fyddwch yn gwybod fy mod wedi bod yn gyfrifol am y portffolio hwn ers bron i dair blynedd bellach, ac rwyf wedi mynegi pryderon ynghylch Cyfoeth Naturiol Cymru a'r ffordd y maent wedi ymdrin â choedwigaeth. Fodd bynnag, mae gennyf hyder yn Cyfoeth Naturiol Cymru.
Yr wythnos diwethaf, cyfarfûm â'r prif weithredwr a'r cadeirydd dros dro i drafod y mater penodol hwn, ac fe fyddwch yn gwybod bod hanner y bwrdd yn aelodau newydd a benodwyd gennyf fi, er enghraifft. Daethant i’w swyddi ddiwedd y llynedd. Felly, yn amlwg, rwyf wedi cael trafodaethau gyda hwy. Fe fyddwch yn gwybod y bydd y prif weithredwr a'r cadeirydd dros dro yn mynd gerbron y Pwyllgor Cyfrifon Cyhoeddus. Felly, mae’n galonogol iawn fod y ffordd ymlaen bellach yn briodol a bod y cadeirydd dros dro a'r prif weithredwr yn ystyried hyn yn flaenoriaeth.
I think I take that as a vote of confidence in NRW's ability to address the concerns in the letter that has been put forward by 10—and I think it's an unprecedented number—processors here in Wales.
Another point that has come forward is that, obviously, in the response today, there's much emphasis on Grant Thornton's independent inquiry looking at some of the issues that have been flagged historically about NRW. I am told that Grant Thornton have not engaged with many of these processors, if indeed any of these processors, in seeking their views on the way forward on the forestry sector. Can you give confirmation today, and is it your understanding, that the terms of reference for Grant Thornton were to take an analysis of the sector's performance, but, importantly, to engage with stakeholders such as the processors, and, if that hasn't happened, you will instruct NRW to go back to the processors and actually have their input into any recommendations that might emerge from this independent report?
Rwy'n credu fy mod yn cymryd hynny fel pleidlais o hyder yng ngallu Cyfoeth Naturiol Cymru i fynd i'r afael â'r pryderon yn y llythyr a gyflwynwyd gan 10—a chredaf fod hwnnw’n nifer digynsail—o broseswyr yma yng Nghymru.
Pwynt arall a godwyd yw bod llawer o bwyslais yn yr ymateb heddiw, yn amlwg, ar ymchwiliad annibynnol Grant Thornton sy’n edrych ar rai o'r materion a nodwyd yn hanesyddol mewn perthynas â Cyfoeth Naturiol Cymru. Dywedir wrthyf nad yw Grant Thornton wedi ymgysylltu â llawer o'r proseswyr hyn, os o gwbl yn wir, o ran gwrando ar eu safbwyntiau ar y ffordd ymlaen i'r sector coedwigaeth. A allwch gadarnhau heddiw, ac mai dyma a ddealloch chi, mai cylch gorchwyl Grant Thornton oedd dadansoddi perfformiad y sector, ond, yn bwysig, ymgysylltu â rhanddeiliaid, megis y proseswyr, ac, os nad yw hynny wedi digwydd, y byddwch yn cyfarwyddo Cyfoeth Naturiol Cymru i ddychwelyd at y proseswyr a chael eu mewnbwn ar unrhyw argymhellion a allai godi o'r adroddiad annibynnol hwn?
There are several points to that question. There were 10 processors who put their names to that letter. I've also asked NRW to look at the relationships that have been had between those 10 companies and NRW as the contracts have come forward.
I can't, off the top of my head, say word for word what the terms of reference were, but certainly it was very important, and I had this assurance that NRW worked in a very open and transparent way with Grant Thornton, and I would have thought that—. I've made it very clear there must be no room for any irregularity. So, I would expect Grant Thornton, obviously, then to liaise with the processors to get their views.
And the other reassurance I can give you, to go back to your first question, is that there has been a change of personnel around forestry in NRW, which, again, I think will strengthen things going forward.
Ceir nifer o bwyntiau yn y cwestiwn hwnnw. Mae 10 o broseswyr wedi rhoi eu henwau ar y llythyr hwnnw. Rwyf hefyd wedi gofyn i Cyfoeth Naturiol Cymru edrych ar y berthynas rhwng y 10 cwmni hwnnw a Cyfoeth Naturiol Cymru wrthi i'r contractau ddod gerbron.
Ar hyn o bryd, ni allaf ddweud air am air beth oedd y cylch gorchwyl, ond yn sicr, roedd yn bwysig iawn, a chefais sicrwydd fod Cyfoeth Naturiol Cymru wedi gweithio mewn ffordd agored a thryloyw iawn gyda Grant Thornton, a buaswn wedi dychmygu bod—. Rwyf wedi dweud yn glir iawn na ddylai fod lle i unrhyw afreoleidd-dra. Felly, buaswn yn disgwyl i Grant Thornton, yn amlwg, gysylltu wedyn gyda phroseswyr i gael eu barn.
A'r sicrwydd arall y gallaf ei roi i chi, gan ddychwelyd at eich cwestiwn cyntaf, yw bod newid wedi bod o ran staff coedwigaeth Cyfoeth Naturiol Cymru, a chredaf y bydd hynny, unwaith eto, yn cryfhau pethau yn y dyfodol.
I'd be grateful if you could add any more advice in a written response, if possible, Minister, because I appreciate you might not have known the terms of reference word by word. I wouldn't have expected you to know that, but I think it's a genuine concern, if that engagement hasn't happened, as to what confidence you can have in the final report.
But another point I'd like to press on NRW, if possible: yesterday, in the statement on 'no deal' preparedness, I highlighted to you the £30 million that has come to the Welsh Government in relation to money that the Chancellor has made available to the devolved Governments. I'm assuming some of that £30 million has been allocated to your department, albeit you didn't confirm that in your response to me yesterday. Are you able to confirm today if that money has come to your department, or if part of that money has come to your department, and that you will be making money available to NRW with the regulatory responsibilities and the permitting responsibilities that they will pick up as we move forward in the Brexit process, because I think it is vitally important that, obviously, if responsibilities are passed to an organisation, resource follows as well? And, as I've pointed out, the money has come from the Chancellor—this £30 million—so we need to understand exactly how that's been allocated within Government.
Buaswn yn ddiolchgar pe gallech ychwanegu unrhyw gyngor ychwanegol mewn ymateb ysgrifenedig, os oes modd, Weinidog, gan fy mod yn sylweddoli efallai nad oeddech yn gwybod y cylch gorchwyl air am air. Ni fuaswn wedi disgwyl ichi wybod hynny, ond credaf fod pa hyder sydd gennych yr adroddiad terfynol, os nad yw'r ymgysylltu hwnnw wedi digwydd, yn fater gwirioneddol bwysig.
Ond pwynt arall yr hoffwn ei godi mewn perthynas â Cyfoeth Naturiol Cymru, os caf: ddoe, yn y datganiad ar barodrwydd ar gyfer 'dim bargen', tynnais eich sylw at y £30 miliwn a roddwyd i Lywodraeth Cymru mewn perthynas ag arian y mae'r Canghellor wedi'i ddarparu i'r Llywodraethau datganoledig. Rwy'n cymryd bod rhywfaint o'r £30 miliwn hwnnw wedi'i ddyrannu i'ch adran, er na chadarnhawyd hynny gennych yn eich ymateb i mi ddoe. A allwch gadarnhau heddiw fod yr arian hwnnw wedi dod i'ch adran, neu fod peth o'r arian hwnnw wedi dod i'ch adran, ac y byddwch yn darparu arian i Cyfoeth Naturiol Cymru gyda'r cyfrifoldebau rheoleiddiol a'r cyfrifoldebau trwyddedu y byddant yn eu hysgwyddo wrth inni fwrw ymlaen â phroses Brexit, gan y credaf ei bod yn hanfodol bwysig, yn amlwg, os trosglwyddir cyfrifoldebau i sefydliad, fod adnoddau'n dilyn hefyd? Ac fel rwyf wedi'i nodi, mae'r arian wedi dod gan y Canghellor—y £30 miliwn hwn—felly mae angen inni ddeall sut yn union y mae wedi cael ei ddyrannu o fewn y Llywodraeth.
I'd be very happy to send a note to you with the detail of that funding.
Buaswn yn fwy na pharod i anfon nodyn atoch gyda manylion y cyllid hwnnw.
Thank you.
Diolch.
Llefarydd Plaid Cymru, Llyr Gruffydd.
The Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Llyr Gruffydd.
Diolch, Llywydd. Gan fod y cyhoeddiad, wrth gwrs, am oedi Wylfa Newydd yn tanlinellu pa mor broblemus yw datblygu cenhedlaeth newydd o orsafoedd niwclear, mae yna beryg nawr, wrth gwrs, ein bod ni'n ffeindio ein hunain yn oedi ac yn aros, o bosib, am flynyddoedd i rywbeth ddigwydd, a does neb eisiau gweld yr ynys nac yn wir, ogledd Cymru'n ehangach mewn cyflwr o limbo o bosib o ganlyniad i hynny. Felly, onid nawr yw'r amser i chi, fel Gweinidog, ac i Lywodraeth Cymru gyda Llywodraeth y Deyrnas Unedig sbarduno cynnydd sylweddol yn y buddsoddiad mewn ynni adnewyddadwy fel modd i wireddu'n llawn y potensial aruthrol, wrth gwrs, sydd gennym ni fan hyn yng Nghymru yn y cyd-destun hynny, a thrwy wneud hynny hefyd, wrth gwrs, helpu i gryfhau'r economi ac i gyfrannu datrysiadau cyflymach a rhatach i anghenion ynni a newid hinsawdd yma yng Nghymru?
Thank you, Llywydd. As the announcement on suspension of Wylfa Newydd underlines how problematic the development of the next generation of nuclear power stations is, there is a risk now that we find ourselves delaying and waiting, possibly, for years for something to happen, and nobody wants to see the island or, indeed, north Wales more broadly in a state of limbo as a result of that. So, isn't now the time for you, as Minister, and for the Welsh Government along with the UK Government to spark a substantial increase in the investment in renewable energy as a means of fully delivering the huge potential that we have here in Wales in that context, and in so doing, of course, helping to strengthen the economy and to provide swifter and cheaper solutions to energy and climate needs here in Wales?
Obviously, we're very disappointed to hear that the development of Wylfa Newydd has been suspended, and, obviously, the Minister for Economy and Transport answered the emergency question from your colleague Rhun yesterday in great detail. Whilst of course nuclear is part of the energy mix, I certainly don't view it as a renewable energy. It's low carbon, but my commitment to bringing in more renewable energy has not been affected by this. I'm very keen on all forms of renewable energy.
Just this week, I had a very good meeting on Monday about tidal stream, because I think there are lots of opportunities there. So, next week, we're having a marine energy summit in Swansea that the First Minister will be speaking at. I think that shows our commitment to renewable energy, and I'm certainly looking at ways of bringing more renewable energy projects into Wales.
Yn amlwg, rydym yn siomedig iawn o glywed bod y gwaith o ddatblygu Wylfa Newydd wedi'i atal, ac yn amlwg, atebodd Gweinidog yr Economi a Thrafnidiaeth y cwestiwn brys gan eich cyd-Aelod, Rhun, yn fanwl iawn ddoe. Er bod ynni niwclear, wrth gwrs, yn rhan o'r cymysgedd ynni, yn sicr nid wyf yn ei ystyried yn ynni adnewyddadwy. Mae'n ynni carbon isel, ond nid yw hyn wedi effeithio ar fy ymrwymiad i gyflwyno mwy o ynni adnewyddadwy. Rwy'n hoff iawn o bob math o ynni adnewyddadwy.
Yr wythnos hon, cefais gyfarfod da iawn ddydd Llun ynglŷn ag araeau llanw, gan y credaf fod llawer o gyfleoedd ynghlwm wrth hynny. Felly, yr wythnos nesaf, byddwn yn cynnal uwchgynhadledd ynni'r môr yn Abertawe, a bydd y Prif Weinidog yn siarad ynddi. Credaf fod hynny'n dangos ein hymrwymiad i ynni adnewyddadwy, ac rwy'n sicr yn edrych ar ffyrdd o ddod â rhagor o brosiectau ynni adnewyddadwy i Gymru.
Dwi'n ei ffeindio hi'n ddiddorol eich bod chi'n dweud nad yw eich cynlluniau chi o safbwynt ynni adnewyddadwy ddim wedi cael eu heffeithio gan y penderfyniad yma. Dyna'n union ddylai fod wedi digwydd yn fy marn i. Hynny yw, nawr mae angen dyblu ymdrechion yn y maes yma er mwyn gwireddu'r potensial sydd gennym ni. Yn ei faniffesto i fod yn arweinydd y Blaid Lafur yng Nghymru, fe wnaeth Mark Drakeford, wrth gwrs, ymrwymo i greu corff—neu i edrych ar greu corff—cydfuddiannol newydd, Ynni Cymru, a fydd yn hybu cynhyrchu ynni yn lleol ac yn cynghori ar fuddsoddi strategol mewn ynni, ymysg amcanion eraill. Allwch chi roi diweddariad inni o safbwynt ble rŷm ni arni ar wireddu hynny? Ac yn sgil y newyddion, wrth gwrs, ynglŷn ag Wylfa, a wnewch chi hefyd ymrwymo i leoli Ynni Cymru ar ein hynys ynni ni, wrth gwrs, sef Ynys Môn?
I find it interesting that you say that your plans in terms of renewable energy haven’t been affected by this decision. That’s exactly what should have happened, in my view. We need to redouble our efforts in this area in order to deliver the potential that we have. In his manifesto to become leader of the Labour Party in Wales, Mark Drakeford, of course, committed to creating—or to look at creating—a co-operative body, Ynni Cymru/Energy Wales, which would promote local energy production and would provide advice on strategic investment in energy, among other objectives. Can you give us an update on where we are in delivering that? And given the news on Wylfa, will you also commit to locate Ynni Cymru/Energy Wales on our energy island, Ynys Môn?
I can't give that commitment, but certainly I've had very early discussions with the First Minister. I think probably the Monday after he became First Minister I had a discussion around his plans in relation to that and he's asked officials to work on that for him.
Ni allaf roi'r ymrwymiad hwnnw, ond yn sicr, rwyf wedi cael trafodaethau cynnar iawn gyda'r Prif Weinidog. Ar y dydd Llun, rwy'n credu, wedi iddo ddod yn Brif Weinidog, cefais drafodaeth gydag ef ynglŷn â'i gynlluniau mewn perthynas â hynny ac mae wedi gofyn i swyddogion weithio ar hynny ar ei ran.
We had a ministerial statement from you yesterday, of course, about your preparations for the possibility of crashing out of the EU without a deal and the adverse impact that would have on agriculture and other sectors in Wales. In that statement, you said, and I quote, that you're
'committed to working with key sectors to design support mechanisms around these serious challenges'.
Yet today, we see reports that both NFU Cymru and the Farmers Union of Wales have raised concerns about being excluded from your 'no deal' Brexit planning process. Their only involvement so far has been through a single, solitary round-table meeting that was only held last week. Clearly, time is running out, Minister, so surely your Welsh Government contingency planning group should include industry representatives, as happened in the past, of course, during the foot and mouth outbreaks in 2001 and 2007. So, could you explain to us what role those key stakeholders will play in your 'no deal' deliberations over the coming weeks? Because it is only weeks that we have left.
Cawsom ddatganiad gweinidogol gennych ddoe, wrth gwrs, ar eich paratoadau ar gyfer y posibilrwydd o adael yr UE heb gytundeb a'r effaith andwyol y byddai hynny'n ei chael ar amaethyddiaeth a sectorau eraill yng Nghymru. Yn y datganiad hwnnw, fe ddywedoch chi, ac rwy'n dyfynnu, eich bod
wedi ymrwymo i weithio gyda sectorau allweddol i gynllunio mecanweithiau cymorth mewn perthynas â'r heriau difrifol hyn.
Ond heddiw gwelwn adroddiadau fod NFU Cymru ac Undeb Amaethwyr Cymru wedi mynegi pryderon ynglŷn â chael eu cau allan o'ch proses gynllunio ar gyfer Brexit 'dim bargen'. Eu hunig gyfraniad hyd yn hyn yw un cyfarfod bwrdd crwn a gynhaliwyd yr wythnos diwethaf. Yn amlwg, mae amser yn brin, Weinidog, felly does bosibl na ddylai grŵp cynllunio wrth gefn Llywodraeth Cymru gynnwys cynrychiolwyr y diwydiant, fel y gwelwyd yn y gorffennol, wrth gwrs, yn ystod yr achosion o glwy'r traed a'r genau yn 2001 a 2007. Felly, a allwch egluro inni pa rôl allweddol y bydd y rhanddeiliaid hynny'n ei chwarae yn eich trafodaethau 'dim bargen' dros yr wythnosau nesaf? Oherwydd ychydig wythnosau yn unig sydd gennym ar ôl.
Both the NFU and FUW, as you say, sit on the stakeholder group. We had a very long and detailed presentation around 'no deal' scenario planning last week. I also have, from within that group—and I don't know if NFU and FUW are on that particular sub-group—a scenario-planning sub-group, which has looked in detail at all the scenarios that could come forward as we leave the EU. That group has been sitting, probably, for about two and a half years. They came forward with a very detailed report. Both the NFU and FUW meet with me regularly. I've seen them both this week. I know that officials are engaging with them around 'no deal'. So, I do—. Obviously, as we up the preparedness around 'no deal', which we certainly have over the last few weeks, when it's become much more of a possibility, I'm sure that engagement will increase also.
Mae Undeb Cenedlaethol yr Amaethwyr ac Undeb Amaethwyr Cymru, fel y dywedwch, yn rhan o'r grŵp rhanddeiliaid. Cawsom gyflwyniad hir a manwl iawn ynghylch cynllunio ar gyfer senario 'dim bargen' yr wythnos diwethaf. Mae gennyf hefyd, o'r grŵp hwnnw—ac nid wyf yn gwybod a yw'r NFU a'r FUW yn rhan o'r is-grŵp penodol hwnnw—is-grŵp ar gyfer cynllunio senarios, sydd wedi edrych yn fanwl ar yr holl senarios a allai ddigwydd wrth inni adael yr UE. Mae'r grŵp hwnnw wedi bodoli ers oddeutu dwy flynedd a hanner mae'n siŵr. Cynhyrchwyd adroddiad manwl iawn ganddynt. Mae'r NFU a'r FUW yn cyfarfod â mi yn rheolaidd. Rwyf wedi gweld y ddau yr wythnos hon. Gwn fod swyddogion yn ymgysylltu â hwy mewn perthynas â Brexit 'dim bargen'. Felly, rwyf—. Yn amlwg, wrth inni gynyddu'r gwaith ar barodrwydd mewn perthynas â Brexit 'dim bargen', sy'n sicr yn rhywbeth rydym wedi'i wneud dros yr ychydig wythnosau diwethaf, ers iddo ddod yn llawer mwy o bosibilrwydd, rwy'n siŵr y bydd lefelau'r ymgysylltiad hwnnw'n cynyddu hefyd.
Llefarydd UKIP, Neil Hamilton.
UKIP spokesperson, Neil Hamilton.
Diolch, Llywydd. The Welsh Government has a target to eradicate TB in cattle and wildlife by 2036 and farmers accept that this involves many restrictions on the way they work and operate and imposes substantial costs upon them as well, but that's absolutely necessary in order to achieve the objective, which we all share. But there's a widespread feeling that whilst farmers are doing a lot to contain and control TB on farms with their cattle, the Welsh Government is not being so energetic in attacking the problem that exists in wildlife. And in the results of the culls that have been authorised in Wales that emerged recently in the leaked letters that were the subject of questions from Paul Davies last week, it emerges that only five badgers have been culled since October 2017, and that compares with 10,000 cattle that had to be slaughtered in the year to last September. So, there are lots of people who think that the Welsh Government's policy on controlling wildlife is simply empty words. I wonder if the Minister will care to update us now on what she intends to do to justify her position.
Diolch, Lywydd. Mae Llywodraeth Cymru wedi gosod targed i ddileu TB mewn gwartheg a bywyd gwyllt erbyn 2036 ac mae ffermwyr yn derbyn bod hyn yn golygu llawer o gyfyngiadau ar y ffordd y maent yn gweithio ac yn gweithredu ac yn arwain at gostau sylweddol iddynt hefyd, ond mae hynny'n gwbl angenrheidiol er mwyn cyflawni'r nod a rennir gan bob un ohonom. Ond er bod ffermwyr yn gwneud llawer i atal a rheoli TB ar ffermydd gyda'u gwartheg, mae llawer yn teimlo nad yw Llywodraeth Cymru yn mynd ati yr un mor egnïol i ddatrys y broblem mewn bywyd gwyllt. Ac yng nghanlyniadau'r difa a awdurdodwyd yng Nghymru, a ymddangosodd yn ddiweddar yn y llythyrau a ddatgelwyd yn answyddogol ac a oedd yn destun cwestiynau gan Paul Davies yr wythnos diwethaf, daeth yn amlwg mai pum mochyn daear sydd wedi eu difa ers mis Hydref 2017, o gymharu â'r 10,000 o wartheg y bu'n rhaid eu difa yn y flwyddyn hyd at fis Medi diwethaf. Felly, mae llawer o bobl yn credu mai geiriau gwag yn unig yw polisi Llywodraeth Cymru ar reoli bywyd gwyllt. Tybed a all y Gweinidog roi'r wybodaeth ddiweddaraf inni yn awr ar yr hyn y mae'n bwriadu ei wneud i gyfiawnhau ei safbwynt.
I brought forward the refreshed TB eradication programme in October 2017, and I'm committed to reporting to this Assembly in April once I've got data for the first calendar year. You'll be aware that, through this programme, we are doing bespoke action plans with herds that are in long-term breakdown, so anything over 18 months, and the five badgers to which you refer, which I think has been taken totally out of context, relate to those bespoke action plans. Now, it could be that, once that plan is set up with the farmer, with their private vet, with the Government vet, wildlife is not part of what needs to be done in order to eradicate TB from that herd.
Cyflwynais y rhaglen ddiwygiedig i ddileu TB ym mis Hydref 2017, ac rwyf wedi ymrwymo i adrodd yn ôl i'r Cynulliad hwn ym mis Ebrill pan fydd data gennyf ar gyfer y flwyddyn galendr gyntaf. Fe fyddwch yn gwybod ein bod, drwy'r rhaglen hon, yn llunio cynlluniau gweithredu pwrpasol gyda buchesi â TB hirdymor, sef unrhyw achos dros 18 mis, ac mae'r pum mochyn daear y cyfeiriwch atynt, rhywbeth sydd wedi'i gymryd allan o gyd-destun yn gyfan gwbl yn fy marn i, yn ymwneud â'r cynlluniau gweithredu pwrpasol hynny. Nawr, pan roddir y cynllun hwnnw ar waith gyda'r ffermwr, gyda'u milfeddyg preifat, gyda milfeddyg y Llywodraeth, efallai nad yw bywyd gwyllt yn rhan o'r hyn sydd angen ei wneud er mwyn dileu TB o'r fuches honno.
I'm rather astonished to hear that, but there it is. The results of the four-year badger cull that was licensed in England have recently been published, and the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs as a result is now extending them into 10 other areas in England. The results closest to us in south-west England, in Gloucestershire—the incidence of TB in wildlife has been reduced from 10.4 per cent to 5.6 per cent and, in Somerset, from 24 per cent to 12 per cent. So, it seems like an overall reduction of 50 per cent. Now, the Farmers Union of Wales has said that England's progress makes Wales's strategy look toothless, given that you have a plan on the shelf, as it were, ready to be brought in if you give the go-ahead to extend badger culling, which, of course, would be an animal welfare policy for badgers as well as for cattle, because TB is a terrible disease, whichever form of animal life has to suffer from it. So, surely, it's now time, in this particular instance at any rate, to think of following England's example.
Mae'n syndod clywed hynny, ond dyna ni. Mae canlyniadau'r broses bedair blynedd o ddifa moch daear a drwyddedwyd yn Lloegr wedi eu cyhoeddi'n ddiweddar, ac o ganlyniad, mae Adran yr Amgylchedd, Bwyd a Materion Gwledig yn ei hymestyn bellach i 10 ardal arall yn Lloegr. Mae'r canlyniadau agosaf atom yn ne-orllewin Lloegr, yn swydd Gaerloyw—mae nifer yr achosion o TB mewn bywyd gwyllt wedi gostwng o 10.4 y cant i 5.6 y cant, ac yng Ngwlad yr Haf, o 24 y cant i 12 y cant. Felly, ymddengys bod hwn yn ostyngiad o 50 y cant i gyd. Nawr, mae Undeb Amaethwyr Cymru wedi dweud bod cynnydd Lloegr yn gwneud i strategaeth Cymru edrych yn wan, o ystyried bod gennych gynllun ar y silff, fel petai, yn barod i gael ei roi ar waith pe baech yn rhoi caniatâd i ymestyn difa moch daear, a fyddai, wrth gwrs, yn bolisi lles anifeiliaid ar gyfer moch daear yn ogystal ag ar gyfer gwartheg, gan fod TB yn glefyd ofnadwy, pa fath bynnag o anifail sy'n dioddef ohono. Felly, does bosibl nad yw hi bellach yn bryd ystyried dilyn esiampl Lloegr, yn yr achos penodol hwn o leiaf.
No, I will not be following England's example. I've ruled out an England-style badger cull from the day I came into this portfolio, following very detailed discussions with the chief veterinary officer. I think it's also right that we point out that 94.6 per cent of herds were TB free at the end of October 2018.
Na, nid wyf am ddilyn esiampl Lloegr. Rwyf wedi diystyru difa moch daear yn y modd y mae Lloegr yn ei wneud ers y diwrnod y cefais y portffolio hwn, yn dilyn trafodaethau manwl iawn gyda'r prif swyddog milfeddygol. Credaf hefyd ei bod yn iawn inni dynnu sylw at y ffaith bod 94.6 y cant o fuchesi heb TB ar ddiwedd mis Hydref 2018.
Well, that is certainly true, but this still remains a substantial problem, and there doesn't seem to have been any progress made on containing it—or not very substantial progress at any rate—in recent times. Paul Davies referred last week also to the leak of this correspondence, which could put farmers' lives at risk, given the activities of some animal extremists. So, I wonder if the Minister will care to reflect on her failure to apologise when Paul Davies asked her to do so last time, but more particularly to give us some reassurance that errors of this kind will not be repeated and that effective action has been taken within the department to ensure that unauthorised leaks of this sensitive information can't occur again.
Wel, mae hynny'n sicr yn wir, ond mae'n dal i fod yn broblem sylweddol, ac nid yw'n ymddangos bod unrhyw gynnydd wedi'i wneud yn ddiweddar ar fynd i'r afael â hi—neu gynnydd sylweddol iawn o leiaf. Cyfeiriodd Paul Davies yr wythnos diwethaf hefyd at yr ohebiaeth hon a ddatgelwyd yn answyddogol, a allai beryglu bywydau ffermwyr, o ystyried gweithgarwch rhai eithafwyr hawliau anifeiliaid. Felly, tybed a wnaiff y Gweinidog fyfyrio ar ei methiant i ymddiheuro pan ofynnodd Paul Davies iddi wneud hynny y tro diwethaf, ond yn fwy arbennig, i roi rhywfaint o sicrwydd inni na fydd camgymeriadau o'r fath yn cael eu hailadrodd a bod camau effeithiol wedi'u cymryd o fewn yr adran i sicrhau nad yw'r wybodaeth sensitif hon yn cael ei datgelu yn answyddogol eto.
Paul Davies has never asked me to apologise. I apologised when it happened during the summer of last year. I apologised immediately. It was the First Minister who Paul Davies asked to apologise last week, and, as the First Minister very rightly said, the issue was dealt with at the time of the incident, and the matter is now closed. I also want to add that evidence shows that most causes of bovine TB in cattle in Wales result from cattle-to-cattle transmission.
Nid yw Paul Davies erioed wedi gofyn imi ymddiheuro. Ymddiheurais pan ddigwyddodd yn ystod yr haf y llynedd. Ymddiheurais ar unwaith. Gofyn i'r Prif Weinidog ymddiheuro a wnaeth Paul Davies yr wythnos diwethaf, ac fel roedd y Prif Weinidog yn iawn i'w ddweud, ymdriniwyd â'r mater pan ddigwyddodd, ac mae bellach ar ben. Hoffwn ychwanegu hefyd fod tystiolaeth yn dangos bod y rhan fwyaf o achosion o TB buchol yng Nghymru yn deillio o drosglwyddiad o un buwch i'r llall.
3. Pa gamau pellach y bydd Llywodraeth Cymru'n eu cymryd i leihau llygredd aer? OAQ53245
3. What further steps will the Welsh Government take to reduce air pollution? OAQ53245
Thank you. Our clean air programme for Wales is considering evidence to inform the development and implementation of actions across Government departments and sectors to reduce the burden of poor air. This work will inform the development of a clean air plan for Wales, which we will publish for consultation this year.
Diolch. Mae ein rhaglen aer glân i Gymru yn ystyried tystiolaeth i lywio'r gwaith o ddatblygu a gweithredu mesurau ar draws adrannau'r Llywodraeth a sectorau i leihau problem aer gwael. Bydd y gwaith hwn yn llywio datblygiad cynllun aer glân i Gymru, a fydd yn cael ei gyhoeddi gennym ar gyfer ymgynghori yn ei gylch eleni.
Thank you for that, Minister. I wonder if you might say a little more about Welsh Government policy on greening our inner urban areas, whether that be tree planting, such as community orchards, or other greening measures. It seems to me that, partly, that will directly affect air quality and improve air quality, but it's really important that we connect our people in Wales more directly with nature. A lot of what we want to see happen is about behavioural change, and I think if people have quality local environments, then they do become more aware of environmental issues, whether it's moving away from car use to a more integrated transport system, or supporting a range of other progressive environmental measures the Welsh Government has taken, and will take. So, I just wonder to what extent you will be acting on that agenda, Minister, of addressing those inner urban environmental issues.
Diolch am hynny, Weinidog. Tybed a allwch ddweud mwy ynglŷn â pholisi Llywodraeth Cymru ar wyrddu canol ein hardaloedd trefol, boed hynny drwy blannu coed, megis perllannau cymunedol, neu fesurau gwyrddu eraill. Ymddengys i mi y bydd hynny, yn rhannol, yn effeithio'n uniongyrchol ar ansawdd aer ac yn gwella ansawdd yr aer, ond mae'n bwysig iawn ein bod yn cysylltu ein pobl yng Nghymru yn fwy uniongyrchol â natur. Mae llawer o'r hyn yr hoffem ei weld yn digwydd yn ymwneud â newid ymddygiad, ac yn fy marn i, os oes gan bobl amgylcheddau lleol o ansawdd, maent yn tyfu'n fwy ymwybodol o faterion amgylcheddol, boed drwy leihau eu defnydd o'r car a newid i system drafnidiaeth fwy integredig, neu drwy gefnogi ystod o fesurau amgylcheddol blaengar eraill y mae Llywodraeth Cymru wedi eu rhoi ar waith ac y bydd yn eu rhoi ar waith yn y dyfodol. Felly, i ba raddau y byddwch yn gweithredu ar yr agenda honno, Weinidog, o fynd i'r afael â'r materion amgylcheddol hynny yng nghanol ardaloedd trefol.
Thank you. I agree with everything John Griffiths says around people's perception of their environment. We have our forest strategy, 'Woodlands for Wales', and that sets out our vision for forestry and woodland creation in Wales. Our policy remains very clear that we want to obviously see more woodland creation. You'll be aware that the First Minister, in his manifesto, said he wants to see a national forest, and again, I've had early discussions with him around how we take that forward.
I think it's really important, also, that we build on our natural resources policy. That includes supporting the development of resilient ecological networks so that we can maintain and enhance Wales's ecosystems in very-well-located woodlands. And, obviously, urban areas are very important too.
Diolch. Cytunaf â phopeth a ddywedodd John Griffiths ynghylch canfyddiad pobl o'u hamgylchedd. Mae gennym strategaeth goetiroedd, 'Coetiroedd i Gymru', sy'n nodi ein gweledigaeth ar gyfer creu coedwigoedd a choetiroedd yng Nghymru. Mae ein polisi yn parhau i fod yn glir iawn ein bod yn amlwg am weld mwy o goetiroedd yn cael eu creu. Fe fyddwch yn gwybod bod y Prif Weinidog, yn ei faniffesto, wedi dweud ei fod yn awyddus i weld coedwig genedlaethol, ac unwaith eto, rwyf wedi cael trafodaethau cynnar gydag ef ynglŷn â sut i fwrw ymlaen â hynny.
Credaf ei bod hefyd yn bwysig iawn ein bod yn adeiladu ar ein polisi adnoddau naturiol. Mae hynny'n cynnwys cefnogi datblygiad rhwydweithiau ecolegol cadarn fel y gallwn gynnal a gwella ecosystemau Cymru mewn coetiroedd sydd wedi'u lleoli mewn mannau da iawn. Ac yn amlwg, mae ardaloedd trefol yn bwysig iawn hefyd.
Minister, do you welcome the UK Government's recent decision to commit to air quality standards based on World Health Organization recommendations, which are much tougher than the EU recommendations, and, indeed, to commit to reducing the number of people living in areas that breach WHO guidelines and to reduce it by half, at least, by 2025? I understand the UK Government is about to publish its own report on new targets that can be set on data that would take us through the WHO guidelines and ensure that that rigour is applied to public policy. Is that a course you're likely to follow in Wales?
Weinidog, a ydych yn croesawu penderfyniad diweddar Llywodraeth y DU i ymrwymo i safonau ansawdd aer sy'n seiliedig ar argymhellion Sefydliad Iechyd y Byd, sy'n llawer llymach nag argymhellion yr UE, ac yn wir, i ymrwymo i leihau nifer y bobl sy'n byw mewn ardaloedd sy'n mynd yn groes i ganllawiau Sefydliad Iechyd y Byd a haneru'r nifer, o leiaf, erbyn 2025? Rwy'n deall bod Llywodraeth y DU ar fin cyhoeddi ei hadroddiad ei hun ar dargedau newydd y gellir eu gosod ar ddata a fyddai'n ein tywys drwy ganllawiau Sefydliad Iechyd y Byd ac yn sicrhau bod y trylwyredd hwnnw i'w weld mewn polisi cyhoeddus. A yw hwnnw'n llwybr yr ydych yn debygol o'i ddilyn yng Nghymru?
Well, certainly, I'm very interested to read the report when it does come out. I've had just a very brief discussion with the Minister around it. I'll have a look at what targets they're setting and see what we can learn from it.
Wel, yn sicr, rwy'n awyddus iawn i ddarllen yr adroddiad pan gaiff ei gyhoeddi. Rwyf newydd gael trafodaeth fer iawn gyda'r Gweinidog yn ei gylch. Rwyf am ystyried pa dargedau y maent yn eu gosod a gweld beth y gallwn ei ddysgu ohono.
In terms of tackling the air pollution challenges in Port Talbot, it's clear that action is needed on a number of fronts, including promoting the use of public transport. So, how does your Government square that ambition with the fact that you have cut the level of funding for bus subsidies to local authorities over recent years?
O ran mynd i'r afael â'r heriau llygredd aer ym Mhort Talbot, mae'n amlwg fod angen gweithredu mewn nifer o feysydd, gan gynnwys hyrwyddo'r defnydd o drafnidiaeth gyhoeddus. Felly, sut y mae eich Llywodraeth yn cysoni'r uchelgais hwnnw â'r ffaith eich bod wedi torri lefel y cyllid ar gyfer cymorthdaliadau bysiau i awdurdodau lleol dros y blynyddoedd diwethaf?
Well, obviously, air quality in Port Talbot is something I'm keeping a very close eye on. It remains a priority for us and we are working with the local authority to see how we can improve and better understand the issues in the area. And, obviously, they will have to consider that as part of their plan to reduce the amount of air pollution.
Wel, yn amlwg, mae ansawdd yr aer ym Mhort Talbot yn rhywbeth rwy'n cadw llygad barcud arno. Mae'n parhau i fod yn flaenoriaeth inni ac rydym yn gweithio gyda'r awdurdod lleol i weld sut y gallwn wella a deall y problemau yn yr ardal yn well. Ac yn amlwg, bydd yn rhaid iddynt ystyried hynny fel rhan o'u cynllun i leihau lefelau llygredd aer.
Well, as Dai Lloyd has pointed out, Port Talbot has unfortunately got a reputation for bad air quality, but we understand some of the reasons behind it. John Griffiths highlighted that perhaps one solution is trees: more trees along our routes, because we have two major roads passing through it. But you've had discussions with Neath Port Talbot County Borough Council. Have you also had discussions as to where your monitoring comes into play? Because I attended the healthy air cross-party group yesterday and it was clear that the monitoring—actual monitoring and the actual data—was still lacking because we are using models from DEFRA, and that, necessarily, isn't based upon factual data per se. So, what are you doing with the council to actually put monitoring places into situations so we actually have the data so that we can assess what the air quality is and how we can tackle it?
Wel, fel y nododd Dai Lloyd, yn anffodus, mae gan Port Talbot enw drwg o ran ansawdd aer gwael, ond rydym yn deall rhai o'r rhesymau am hynny. Tynnodd John Griffiths sylw at y ffaith y gall coed fod yn un ateb: mwy o goed ar hyd ein ffyrdd, gan fod gennym ddwy brif ffordd yn pasio drwy'r ardal. Ond rydych wedi cael trafodaethau gyda Chyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Castell-nedd Port Talbot. A ydych wedi cael trafodaethau hefyd ynglŷn â pha ran y bydd eich gwaith monitro yn ei chwarae? Oherwydd roeddwn yn y grŵp trawsbleidiol ar aer iach ddoe ac roedd yn glir bod y gwaith monitro—y gwaith monitro gwirioneddol a'r data gwirioneddol—yn dal i fod yn ddiffygiol gan ein bod yn defnyddio modelau gan DEFRA, ac nid yw'r rheini, o reidrwydd, yn seiliedig ar ddata ffeithiol fel y cyfryw. Felly, beth a wnewch gyda'r cyngor i roi lleoedd monitro ar waith fel y gallwn gael y data i allu asesu beth yw ansawdd yr aer a sut y gallwn wneud rhywbeth amdano?
Well, the data is obviously very important, and I know my officials have asked the council to re-examine the short-term action plan to see what approach it's taking, what evidence they have that underpinned it. As I say, the data will be very important too because we need to make sure that that plan is the best way of tackling the poor air quality. They have had an independent peer review with a university—I think it's the University of the West of England—and I think they're expecting that report in the very near future.
Wel, yn amlwg, mae'r data'n bwysig iawn, a gwn fod fy swyddogion wedi gofyn i'r cyngor ailedrych ar y cynllun gweithredu tymor byr i weld pa ddull y maent yn ei fabwysiadu, pa dystiolaeth sydd ganddynt yn sail iddo. Fel y dywedaf, bydd y data'n bwysig iawn hefyd gan fod angen inni sicrhau mai'r cynllun hwnnw yw'r ffordd orau o fynd i'r afael ag ansawdd aer gwael. Maent wedi cael adolygiad annibynnol gan gymheiriaid gyda phrifysgol—Prifysgol Gorllewin Lloegr, rwy'n credu—a chredaf eu bod yn disgwyl yr adroddiad hwnnw yn y dyfodol agos iawn.
Minister, whichever model you use for controlling and dealing with air pollution, I have within my constituency, on the A470 between Nantgarw and Treforest junctions, one of the most polluted areas in the whole of Wales. I know that speed restriction measures have been taken, but I wonder if you could outline the measures that have been taken and what further action could be taken. Because it is not only a massive congested traffic area, but the air conditions there are positively very, very dangerous, and it's an area that needs urgent monitoring and ongoing attention.
Weinidog, pa fodel bynnag a ddefnyddiwch ar gyfer rheoli a mynd i'r afael â llygredd aer, mae gennyf yn fy etholaeth i, ar yr A470 rhwng cyffyrdd Nantgarw a Threfforest, un o ardaloedd mwyaf llygredig Cymru. Gwn fod cyfyngiadau cyflymder ar waith, ond tybed a allech amlinellu'r mesurau a roddwyd ar waith a pha gamau pellach y gellid eu cymryd. Oherwydd nid yn unig ei bod yn ardal â thagfeydd traffig anferthol, ond mae amodau'r aer yno yn wirioneddol beryglus, ac mae'n ardal sydd angen monitro brys a sylw parhaus.
Thank you. As you say, there is a 50 mph speed limit that's been imposed there and that will be reviewed periodically. We will leave them in place as long as we think necessary to maintain air quality standards on that part of the road. I think what's really paramount to the effectiveness of these 50 mph speed limits—I've got one in my own constituency—obviously, is compliance. I think we need to be much more upfront about what it is. I've certainly heard people say in Wrexham that they don't understand why they've got that stretch of 50 mph. We've now got a sign saying that it's to reduce emissions. But I think perhaps we need to be even more clear in relation to that.
We will be commissioning a further review of measures that may have the potential to improve air quality at the location of nitrogen dioxide exceedance. We're also taking significant steps around congestion on the A470, and I know that my colleague Ken Skates—his officials have established a pinchpoints programme to look at a range of solutions to address the known problems in that area.
Diolch. Fel y dywedwch, mae terfyn cyflymder o 50 mya ar waith yno a bydd yn cael ei adolygu o bryd i'w gilydd. Byddwn yn eu gadael yn eu lle cyhyd ag y credwn sy'n angenrheidiol er mwyn cynnal safonau ansawdd aer ar y rhan honno o'r ffordd. Credaf mai'r hyn sy'n hanfodol i effeithiolrwydd y terfynau cyflymder 50 mya hyn—mae gennyf un yn fy etholaeth i—yw cydymffurfiaeth, wrth gwrs. Rwy'n credu bod angen inni fod yn llawer mwy agored ynglŷn â beth yw hynny. Yn sicr, rwyf wedi clywed pobl yn dweud yn Wrecsam nad ydynt yn deall pam fod ganddynt y darn hwnnw o 50 mya. Mae gennym arwydd yno bellach sy'n dweud mai lleihau allyriadau yw ei ddiben. Ond credaf efallai fod angen inni fod hyd yn oed yn fwy clir mewn perthynas â hynny.
Byddwn yn comisiynu adolygiad pellach o fesurau a allai fod â photensial i wella ansawdd aer yn y mannau ble y ceir gormodedd o nitrogen deuocsid. Rydym hefyd yn cymryd camau sylweddol mewn perthynas â thagfeydd ar yr A470, a gwn fod fy nghyd-Weinidog Ken Skates—mae ei swyddogion wedi sefydlu rhaglen mannau cyfyng i ystyried ystod o atebion i fynd i'r afael â phroblemau y gwyddys amdanynt yn yr ardal honno.
Tynnwyd cwestiwn 4 [OAQ53257] yn ôl. Cwestiwn 5, Mohammad Asghar.
Question 4 [OAQ53257] is withdrawn. Question 5, Mohammad Asghar.
5. A wnaiff y Prif Weinidog amlinellu blaenoriaethau polisi Llywodraeth Cymru ar gyfer diogelu bywyd gwyllt Cymru? OAQ53229
5. Will the Minister outline the Welsh Government's policy priorities for preserving Welsh wildlife? OAQ53229
Thank you. Our policy priorities for wildlife are contained in our nature recovery action plan, emphasising the important role that biodiversity plays in our well-being. This has, for example, seen us invest £4 million and secure an additional £11 million of EU funding for three important projects for Welsh habitats and wildlife.
Diolch. Mae ein blaenoriaethau polisi ar gyfer bywyd gwyllt yn rhan o'n cynllun gweithredu adfer natur, sy'n pwysleisio'r rôl bwysig y mae bioamrywiaeth yn ei chwarae yn ein lles. Mae hyn, er enghraifft, wedi golygu ein bod yn buddsoddi £4 miliwn ac wedi sicrhau £11 miliwn ychwanegol o arian yr UE ar gyfer tri phrosiect pwysig ar gyfer cynefinoedd a bywyd gwyllt Cymru.
Thank you very much for the reply, Minister. I know that your funding and—Welsh funding and European funding, how long that is going to be sustained. But a recent study into the state of birds in Wales found that one in three types of birds are in significant decline. In some cases, they're in danger of extinction in Wales. One of the reasons for this decline is the destruction of birds' habitats, such as hedgerows. Hedgerows are an important feature of the countryside environment, and I understand that regulations mean that it is against the law to remove most countryside hedges without permission from the local authorities—planning permission. Can I ask you, Minister, what you are doing to encourage the planting of hedgerows as an alternative to building fences to protect our environment and to reverse the worrying decline in our bird populations, please?
Diolch yn fawr iawn am yr ateb, Weinidog. Gwn fod eich cyllid a—cyllid Cymru a chyllid Ewropeaidd, am ba hyd y bydd yn parhau? Ond canfu astudiaeth ddiweddar o gyflwr adar yng Nghymru fod un o bob tri math o adar yn dirywio'n sylweddol. Mewn rhai achosion, maent mewn perygl o ddiflannu yng Nghymru. Un o'r rhesymau dros y dirywiad hwn yw dinistrio cynefinoedd adar, megis perthi. Mae perthi yn nodwedd bwysig o'r amgylchedd cefn gwlad, ac rwy'n deall bod rheoliadau'n golygu ei bod yn erbyn y gyfraith i ddileu'r rhan fwyaf o wrychoedd cefn gwlad heb ganiatâd gan yr awdurdodau lleol—caniatâd cynllunio. A gaf fi ofyn, Weinidog, beth a wnewch i annog plannu perthi yn lle adeiladu ffensys er mwyn diogelu ein hamgylchedd a gwrthdroi'r dirywiad ofnadwy yn ein poblogaethau adar, os gwelwch yn dda?
I have seen that report, and, certainly, the decline in some native bird species is very worrying. I think there are many factors that will combine together to effect bird population change over time in Wales, and I think we do need to ensure that Welsh habitats are absolutely in the best possible condition to allow bird populations the best chance of recovery.
I haven't specifically done anything about hedgerows, but I'd certainly be very happy to look at it. You'll be aware of the significant amount of hedgerows—. One of the things that struck me when I went out to New Zealand to look at farms out there—. If you go on farms in Wales, the wonderful hedgerows that are there, which obviously encourage bird species here, you just don't see out there. So, I think you're right, hedgerows form part of that work that needs to be done to make sure that we do have the bird population we want here.
Rwyf wedi gweld yr adroddiad hwnnw, ac yn sicr, mae'r dirywiad mewn rhai rhywogaethau adar brodorol yn peri cryn bryder. Credaf y bydd llawer o ffactorau yn cyfuno i achosi newid yn y boblogaeth adar dros amser yng Nghymru, a chredaf fod angen inni sicrhau bod cynefinoedd Cymru yn y cyflwr gorau posibl i roi'r cyfle gorau i boblogaethau adar allu gwella.
Nid wyf wedi gwneud unrhyw beth penodol ynglŷn â pherthi, ond rwy'n sicr yn fwy na pharod i ystyried y mater. Fe fyddwch yn ymwybodol o'r nifer sylweddol o berthi—. Un o'r pethau a wnaeth argraff arnaf pan euthum allan i Seland Newydd i edrych ar ffermydd yno—. Os ewch i ffermydd yng Nghymru, y perthi gwych sydd yma, sy'n amlwg yn hybu rhywogaethau adar yma, nid ydych yn eu gweld draw yno. Felly, credaf eich bod yn llygad eich lle, mae perthi yn rhan o'r gwaith y mae angen ei wneud i sicrhau bod gennym y boblogaeth adar rydym am ei gweld yma.
In your response to Mohammad Asghar, you rightly highlight the importance of the 'State of Birds in Wales 2018' report, and we have, of course, some incredibly internationally important populations—I'm thinking, for example, of the gannetry on Grassholm; I could list a whole load. Obviously, some of the investment that's already been made to protect those habitats is beginning to show success, and ensuring that we adequately fund schemes and initiatives to recover and continue to recover natural environments is key, and that includes enabling Natural Resources Wales to be fully resourced around its conservation remit, which is, of course, a challenge. What discussions have you and your Government had, Minister, to mitigate the risk that we may no longer be able to access the EU funds that you mentioned, including initiatives such as the LIFE funding stream, which has been key in enabling some of the large scale species recovery and environment projects that have been undertaken here? How can that incredibly invaluable investment be replaced and maintained?
Yn eich ymateb i Mohammad Asghar, rydych yn iawn i dynnu sylw at bwysigrwydd yr adroddiad 'State of Birds in Wales 2018', ac mae gennym rai poblogaethau pwysig iawn yn rhyngwladol wrth gwrs—rwy'n meddwl, er enghraifft, am nythle'r gwylanwyddau ar Ynys Gwales; gallwn restru llu ohonynt. Yn amlwg, mae peth o'r buddsoddiad a wnaethpwyd eisoes i ddiogelu'r cynefinoedd hynny yn dechrau dangos llwyddiant, ac mae sicrhau ein bod yn ariannu cynlluniau a mentrau yn ddigonol fel y gallant wella a pharhau i wella amgylcheddau naturiol yn allweddol, ac mae hynny'n cynnwys darparu'r holl adnoddau angenrheidiol i Cyfoeth Naturiol Cymru mewn perthynas â'u cylch gwaith cadwraeth, sydd, wrth gwrs, yn her. Pa drafodaethau a gawsoch chi a'ch Llywodraeth, Weinidog, i liniaru'r risg na fyddwn yn gallu cael mynediad at gronfeydd yr UE a grybwyllwyd gennych, gan gynnwys mentrau megis ffrwd gyllido LIFE, sydd wedi bod yn allweddol o ran galluogi peth o'r gwaith adfer rhywogaethau ar raddfa fawr a'r prosiectau amgylcheddol sydd wedi eu cyflawni yma? Sut y gellir sicrhau cyllid yn lle'r buddsoddiad anhygoel o werthfawr hwnnw, a sicrhau ei fod yn cael ei gynnal?
It is obviously an area that we have worked with the UK Government on, because, if you remember, we were told by the UK Government that, if we left the European Union, we would not lose a penny of funding. So, currently, we are still in that position where we are telling them, 'You promised us we would not lose a penny', and, certainly, right across my portfolio—as I think I said in an earlier answer to Rhun ap Iorwerth—it's awash with European funding. I think my portfolio probably receives the most. So, it is imperative that we continue to have those discussions, because we know of the impact it would have, not just on agriculture and fisheries, but also on the environment.
Mae'n amlwg yn faes rydym wedi gweithio arno gyda Llywodraeth y DU, oherwydd, os cofiwch, dywedwyd wrthym gan Lywodraeth y DU, pe baem yn gadael yr Undeb Ewropeaidd, na fyddem yn colli ceiniog o gyllid. Felly, ar hyn o bryd, rydym yn dal i fod yn y sefyllfa lle rydym yn dweud wrthynt, 'Fe wnaethoch chi addo inni na fyddem yn colli ceiniog', ac yn sicr, mae fy mhortffolio—fel y dywedais mewn ateb cynharach i Rhun ap Iorwerth—yn nofio mewn cyllid Ewropeaidd. Mwy na thebyg mai fy mhortffolio i sy'n derbyn y swm mwyaf o arian. Felly, mae'n hanfodol ein bod yn parhau i gael y trafodaethau hynny, gan y gwyddom am yr effaith y byddai'n ei chael, nid yn unig ar amaethyddiaeth a physgodfeydd, ond hefyd ar yr amgylchedd.
We've all been reading the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds's 'State of Birds in Wales 2018', so the question is quite clearly that birds are going down—there is a rapid decline—and I am a member of the RSPB, so I'll declare that now. So, in terms of the good things that we've done, like banning shooting on NRW land, stopping the shooting of the white-fronted goose—things like that, preserving specifics—they are really good. But I suppose, in terms of land management, my question will be about nitrate vulnerable zones and the impact that some of those have on our wildlife, and what it is, Minister, that you are going to do to make sure that we bring forward a sustainable plan where nitrates aren't in such concentration that they destroy any habitat that tries to live beyond them.
Mae pob un ohonom wedi bod yn darllen adroddiad y Gymdeithas Frenhinol er Gwarchod Adar, 'State of Birds in Wales 2018', felly mae'n eithaf amlwg mai'r cwestiwn yw bod niferoedd adar yn cwympo—mae yno ostyngiad cyflym—ac rwy'n aelod o'r Gymdeithas Frenhinol er Gwarchod Adar, felly rwyf am ddatgan hynny nawr. Felly, o ran y pethau da rydym wedi'u gwneud, fel gwahardd saethu ar dir Cyfoeth Naturiol Cymru, rhoi diwedd ar saethu gwyddau talcenwyn—pethau fel hynny, gwarchod pethau penodol—maent yn bethau da iawn. Ond rwy'n tybio, o ran rheoli tir, y bydd fy nghwestiwn yn ymwneud â pharthau perygl nitradau a'r effaith a gaiff rhai ohonynt ar ein bywyd gwyllt, a beth y bwriadwch ei wneud, Weinidog, i sicrhau ein bod yn cyflwyno cynllun cynaliadwy lle na cheir crynodiadau o nitradau a allai ddinistrio unrhyw gynefin sy'n ceisio byw y tu hwnt iddynt.
Thank you. So, the Member will be aware of the written statement I brought forward around agriculture pollution and NVZs. I think it's really important that we continue to take forward the nature recovery action plan. It's our national strategy so that we can address the decline in biodiversity. You mentioned a couple of instances around protection of birds, and I do think it is strategies like you've just mentioned around the Greenland white-fronted goose. I think it is also really important that we make good progress to embed the biodiversity and resilience of ecosystems duty with all public authorities. I think there's a big piece of work to be done here, and, again, I know that the First Minister—this is an area he's very keen on, about looking at the decline in the biodiversity, which I do think we have now started to reverse, but we need to do it at a much quicker pace.
Diolch. Felly, fe fydd yr Aelod yn gwybod am y datganiad ysgrifenedig a wneuthum mewn perthynas â llygredd amaethyddol a pharthau perygl nitradau. Credaf ei bod yn wirioneddol bwysig ein bod yn parhau i ddatblygu'r cynllun gweithredu adfer natur. Dyna yw ein strategaeth genedlaethol fel y gallwn fynd i'r afael â'r dirywiad mewn bioamrywiaeth. Fe sonioch chi am un neu ddwy o enghreifftiau yn gysylltiedig â gwarchod adar, a chredaf ei fod yn ymwneud â strategaethau fel yr un rydych newydd ei chrybwyll ar gyfer gwyddau talcenwyn yr Ynys Las. Credaf ei bod yn wirioneddol bwysig hefyd ein bod yn gwneud cynnydd sylweddol er mwyn sefydlu'r ddyletswydd bioamrywiaeth a chydnerthedd ecosystemau gyda phob awdurdod cyhoeddus. Credaf fod cryn dipyn o waith i'w wneud yma, ac unwaith eto, gwn fod y Prif Weinidog—mae hwn yn faes y mae'n frwdfrydig iawn yn ei gylch, o ran edrych ar y dirywiad mewn bioamrywiaeth, sy'n rhywbeth y credaf ein bod wedi dechrau ei wrthdroi bellach, ond mae angen inni wneud hynny'n llawer cyflymach.
6. A wnaiff y Gweinidog ddatganiad am y nifer sy'n defnyddio Gwasanaeth Ynni Llywodraeth Cymru? OAQ53254
6. Will the Minister make a statement on the uptake of the Welsh Government Energy Service? OAQ53254
Thank you. Since the energy service was launched last year, it has supported public sector organisations and local communities to progress significant energy efficiency and renewable energy schemes. These schemes are expected to result in £16 million of low-cost Welsh Government finance being committed in the current financial year.
Diolch. Ers lansio'r gwasanaeth ynni y llynedd, mae wedi cynorthwyo sefydliadau sector cyhoeddus a chymunedau lleol i fwrw ymlaen â chynlluniau effeithlonrwydd ynni ac ynni adnewyddadwy sylweddol. Disgwylir i'r cynlluniau hyn arwain at ymrwymo £16 miliwn o gyllid cost isel Llywodraeth Cymru yn ystod y flwyddyn ariannol hon.
Thank you for that answer. Minister, with large-scale projects like Wylfa and the tidal lagoon struggling to get off the ground, it seems to me that it is now time to focus on smaller, community-based energy generation, so that communities can take charge of their energy production and—more to the point—enjoy the savings. What plans do you have to encourage more public sector bodies, community groups and businesses to take up the energy service?
Diolch am eich ateb. Weinidog, gyda phrosiectau mawr fel Wylfa a'r morlyn llanw yn ei chael hi'n anodd cychwyn, ymddengys i mi ei bod bellach yn bryd canolbwyntio ar gynhyrchu ynni ar raddfa lai yn y gymuned, fel y gall cymunedau fod yn gyfrifol am gynhyrchu eu hynni, ac yn bwysicach, mwynhau'r arian a gaiff ei arbed. Pa gynlluniau sydd gennych i annog mwy o gyrff y sector cyhoeddus, grwpiau cymunedol a busnesau i fanteisio ar y gwasanaeth ynni?
Thank you. Well, I think it's probably a balance about both. I mentioned that the scheme has only been going for about six months. We've got a pipeline of 257 projects across all the 22 local authorities. There are other public sector bodies and community groups involved in that as well. We've already seen many of them in active development with the energy service. As I say, it's only six months in. We are also supporting the development of four large-scale ground-mounted solar projects in north Wales, so I'm very pleased with the progress that we've made in the first six months.
Diolch. Wel, credaf fod hyn, mae'n debyg, yn ymwneud â chydbwysedd rhwng y ddau beth. Soniais nad yw'r cynllun ond wedi bod ar waith ers oddeutu chwe mis. Mae gennym 257 o brosiectau yn yr arfaeth ar draws y 22 awdurdod lleol. Mae cyrff sector cyhoeddus a grwpiau cymunedol eraill yn rhan o hynny hefyd. Rydym eisoes wedi gweld llawer ohonynt yn datblygu'n weithredol gyda'r gwasanaeth ynni. Fel y dywedaf, chwe mis yn unig sydd wedi bod. Rydym hefyd yn cefnogi'r gwaith o ddatblygu pedwar prosiect ynni'r haul wedi'u gosod ar lawr, sy'n brosiectau ar raddfa fawr, yng ngogledd Cymru, felly rwy'n fodlon iawn gyda'r cynnydd rydym wedi'i wneud dros y chwe mis cyntaf.
The Welsh Government website says that the energy service aims to develop energy efficiency and renewable energy projects and provides technical, financial and other specialist support for energy projects. You just mentioned working with community groups and others. The original effective pilot, the local affordable warmth scheme launched in Flintshire some years ago, was always built upon a joint working with the third sector and existing energy efficiency schemes. How are you ensuring that that is embedded as this goes forward, and it's not simply a top-down county hall programme? Finally, how are you planning to address concern that, with fluctuating fuel prices, many off-gas-grid homes have recently seen improvements in their energy performance certificates without any alterations being made to their property or any material improvements to the environmental performance of the buildings concerned?
Dywed gwefan Llywodraeth Cymru mai nod y gwasanaeth ynni yw datblygu prosiectau effeithlonrwydd ynni ac ynni adnewyddadwy ac mae'n darparu cymorth technegol, ariannol ac arbenigol arall ar gyfer prosiectau ynni. Fe gyfeirioch chi at weithio gyda grwpiau cymunedol ac eraill. Cafodd y cynllun peilot effeithiol gwreiddiol, y cynllun cynhesrwydd fforddiadwy lleol a lansiwyd yn sir y Fflint rai blynyddoedd yn ôl, ei ddatblygu drwy gydweithio â'r trydydd sector a chynlluniau effeithlonrwydd ynni a oedd yn bodoli eisoes. Sut y sicrhewch y bydd yn magu gwraidd wrth symud ymlaen, ac nad yw'n rhaglen a reolir i lawr o neuadd y sir? Yn olaf, sut y bwriadwch fynd i'r afael â'r pryder, gyda phrisiau tanwydd yn amrywio, fod llawer o gartrefi nad ydynt ar y grid nwy wedi gweld gwelliannau yn ddiweddar yn eu tystysgrifau perfformiad ynni heb fod unrhyw addasiadau wedi'u gwneud i'w heiddo nac unrhyw welliannau o sylwedd i berfformiad amgylcheddol yr adeiladau dan sylw?
So, in creating the new energy service, we are enabling the public sector to, obviously, decarbonise and make use of this funding, but this service is also supporting local people. It's not just about the public sector. So, local people and local groups are, obviously, coming together to create schemes that will help us deliver against our targets for renewable energy in Wales. I've been to two very good hydro schemes in north Wales run by the community, one in Corwen and one in Bethesda, and, I have to say, to hear individuals say that they know that when they switch their kettle on in their kitchen they are benefiting from that in another way, I think really shows me that this is absolutely the way forward. I know that, quite often, when groups come together, there are lots of technical complexities and we have to do due diligence, obviously, but I do think this scheme is really moving quickly. As I say, it's only been there six months and we've already had many projects coming to fruition.
Wrth greu'r gwasanaeth ynni newydd, rydym yn galluogi'r sector cyhoeddus, yn amlwg, i ddatgarboneiddio ac i ddefnyddio'r arian hwn, ond mae'r gwasanaeth hwn hefyd yn cefnogi pobl leol. Mae'n ymwneud â mwy na'r sector cyhoeddus yn unig. Felly, mae pobl leol a grwpiau lleol, yn amlwg, yn dod at ei gilydd i greu cynlluniau a fydd yn ein cynorthwyo i gyrraedd ein targedau ar gyfer ynni adnewyddadwy yng Nghymru. Rwyf wedi ymweld â dau gynllun ynni dŵr da iawn yng ngogledd Cymru sy'n cael eu rhedeg gan y gymuned, un yng Nghorwen ac un ym Methesda, ac mae'n rhaid imi ddweud, wrth glywed unigolion yn dweud eu bod yn gwybod, pan fyddant yn troi'r tegell ymlaen yn eu cegin, eu bod yn elwa o hynny mewn ffordd arall, credaf fod hynny'n dangos imi o ddifrif mai hon yw'r ffordd ymlaen. Yn aml iawn, pan fydd grwpiau'n dod at ei gilydd, rwy'n gwybod bod llawer o gymhlethdodau technegol ac mae'n rhaid inni sicrhau diwydrwydd dyladwy, yn amlwg, ond credaf fod y cynllun hwn yn symud yn gyflym. Fel rwy'n dweud, chwe mis yn unig sydd wedi bod ac rydym eisoes wedi gweld llawer o brosiectau'n dwyn ffrwyth.
7. A wnaiff y Gweinidog ddatganiad am ansawdd dŵr yn etholaeth Ogwr? OAQ53262
7. Will the Minister make a statement on water quality in the Ogmore constituency? OAQ53262
Thank you. The 2015 river basin management plan has shown the Llynfi and Garw rivers achieve 'moderate' status whilst the Ogmore and its tributaries achieve 'good' status under the water framework directive. Across Wales, 37 per cent of water bodies currently meet 'good' status, with work under way to increase this to 42 per cent by 2021.
Diolch. Mae cynllun rheoli basn afon 2015 wedi dangos bod afon Llynfi ac afon Garw yn cyflawni statws 'cymedrol' tra bo afon Ogwr a'i his-afonydd yn cyflawni statws 'da' o dan y gyfarwyddeb fframwaith dŵr. Ledled Cymru, mae 37 y cant o'r crynofeydd dŵr yn cyflawni statws 'da' ar hyn o bryd, gyda gwaith ar y gweill i gynyddu'r ffigur hwn i 42 y cant erbyn 2021.
I thank the Minister for that response, and I'm glad she interpreted my question as river quality, not general water within the Ogmore constituency. So, thank you for that. It's great to see that we are on an upward trajectory, and it's noticeable over the last couple of decades the improvement in the water quality of the rivers within the Ogmore. I can't take all credit for it myself, I have to say: it's been a combination of investment from Dŵr Cymru/Welsh Water and NRW as well, investing in things such as improvements to the river bed quality high up into the rivers so that we now have spawning fish right up into the top of Blaengarw and so on. But we still have more to do.
I note that we'll shortly be out, myself and Chris Elmore, visiting a couple of the projects—over £10 million of investment by Dŵr Cymru on two flagship investments. That includes investment of £3.3 million on a new sewer between Ogmore Vale and Blackmill and also £7 million additional investment into the existing treatment works in Lletty Brongu in Llangynwyd in the Llynfi Valley. This is great to see, but I wonder whether the Minister could either update me now or write to me on the issue of the Garw valley and the combined sewage and water outfalls, which still, I understand—I'm told by the anglers that, when we have very heavy rain, the combined outfall means that we are pumping sewage effluent directly into that very important river. So, I wonder if, perhaps, if she doesn't have the answer now, she could write to me and let me know where we are with investment in the Garw valley as well.
Diolch i'r Gweinidog am ei hymateb, ac rwy'n falch ei bod wedi dehongli fy nghwestiwn fel un am ansawdd afonydd, yn hytrach na dŵr yn gyffredinol yn etholaeth Ogwr. Felly, diolch am hynny. Mae'n wych gweld ein bod yn wynebu'r cyfeiriad iawn, ac mae'r gwelliant yn ansawdd dŵr yr afonydd yn Ogwr yn amlwg dros y ddau ddegawd diwethaf. Ni allaf gymryd yr holl glod am hynny fy hun, mae'n rhaid imi ddweud: mae wedi dibynnu ar gyfuniad o fuddsoddiad gan Dŵr Cymru a Cyfoeth Naturiol Cymru hefyd, wrth iddynt fuddsoddi mewn pethau megis gwelliannau i ansawdd gwely afon yn uchel i fyny'r afonydd fel bod gennym bellach bysgod yn silio yr holl ffordd i fyny at ben uchaf Blaengarw ac ati. Ond mae gennym fwy i'w wneud.
Nodaf y byddwn yn mynd allan yn fuan, Chris Elmore a minnau, i ymweld ag un neu ddau o'r prosiectau—dros £10 miliwn o fuddsoddiad gan Dŵr Cymru ar ddau fuddsoddiad blaenllaw. Mae hynny'n cynnwys buddsoddiad o £3.3 miliwn ar garthffos newydd rhwng Cwm Ogwr a Melin Ifan Ddu yn ogystal â gwerth £7 miliwn o fuddsoddiad ychwanegol i'r gwaith trin dŵr gwastraff presennol yn Llety Brongu yn Llangynwyd yng Nghwm Llynfi. Mae'n wych gweld hyn, ond tybed a allai'r Gweinidog naill ai roi'r wybodaeth ddiweddaraf imi yn awr neu ysgrifennu ataf ar fater cwm Garw a'r gollyngfeydd carthffosiaeth a dŵr cyfunol, sy'n dal i fod, yn ôl yr hyn a ddeallaf—mae'r pysgotwyr yn dweud wrthyf, pan fyddwn yn cael glaw trwm iawn, fod yr ollyngfa gyfunol yn golygu ein bod yn pwmpio elifion carthion yn uniongyrchol i mewn i'r afon bwysig honno. Felly, os nad oes ganddi ateb ar hyn o bryd, tybed a allai ysgrifennu ataf i roi gwybod beth yw'r sefyllfa o ran buddsoddiad yng nghwm Garw hefyd.
I will have to write to the Member in relation to the Garw valley, because I don't have that information to hand, but I think you've highlighted a very important point, particularly around the significant investment that Dŵr Cymru are putting into ensuring that we have a thriving water environment, because, absolutely, that's what we want to see.FootnoteLink
Bydd yn rhaid imi ysgrifennu at yr Aelod mewn perthynas â chwm Garw, gan nad oes gennyf y wybodaeth honno wrth law, ond credaf eich bod wedi tynnu sylw at bwynt pwysig iawn, yn enwedig y buddsoddiad sylweddol a wneir gan Dŵr Cymru i sicrhau bod gennym amgylchedd dŵr ffyniannus, oherwydd, yn sicr, dyna rydym am ei weld.FootnoteLink
8. A wnaiff y Gweinidog ddatganiad am les anifeiliaid anwes? OAQ53236
8. Will the Minister make a statement on the welfare of pets? OAQ53236
Thank you. I updated Plenary on my plans to improve companion animal welfare in my oral statements in June and November last year. I'm committed to exploring options related to banning third-party sale of puppies and kittens and the consultation for this will be launched on 22 February.
Diolch. Rhoddais y wybodaeth ddiweddaraf i'r Cyfarfod Llawn ynglŷn â fy nghynlluniau i wella lles anifeiliaid anwes yn fy natganiadau llafar ym mis Mehefin a mis Tachwedd y llynedd. Rwy'n ymrwymedig i archwilio opsiynau'n ymwneud â gwahardd gwerthu cŵn a chathod bach gan drydydd parti a bydd yr ymgynghoriad ar y mater yn cael ei lansio ar 22 Chwefror.
Thank you for that answer, Minister. Earlier this month, I was delighted to take Andrew R.T. Davies in his capacity as your shadow to one of my favourite places in my constituency, and, at our meeting at the Bridgend Cats Protection adoption centre, the issue of landlords and residential homes not accepting pets came up again. Now, obviously, you know that that's a real well-being issue, particularly for older people, and also for animals themselves. Last summer, you told me that this was an important issue, something that Welsh Government do need to look at, and that you would make sure you'd start to have conversations about this. It's six months on now, and I wonder if you're in a position to update us on those conversations.
Diolch am eich ateb, Weinidog. Yn gynharach y mis hwn, roeddwn yn falch iawn o fynd ag Andrew R.T. Davies yn rhinwedd ei swydd fel eich llefarydd cysgodol i un o fy hoff lefydd yn fy etholaeth i, ac yn ein cyfarfod yng nghanolfan fabwysiadu Cats Protection Pen-y-bont ar Ogwr, unwaith eto cododd mater landlordiaid a chartrefi preswyl nad ydynt yn derbyn anifeiliaid anwes. Nawr, yn amlwg, gwyddoch fod honno'n broblem wirioneddol o ran llesiant, yn enwedig llesiant pobl hŷn, yn ogystal â lles yr anifeiliaid eu hunain. Yr haf diwethaf, fe ddywedoch chi wrthyf fod hwn yn fater pwysig, yn rhywbeth y mae angen i Lywodraeth Cymru ei ystyried, ac y byddech yn sicrhau y byddech yn dechrau cael trafodaethau ynglŷn â hyn. Mae chwe mis wedi bod ers hynny, a tybed a ydych mewn sefyllfa i roi'r wybodaeth ddiweddaraf inni am y sgyrsiau hynny.
I did have an initial conversation with officials around it. You'll appreciate I haven't got the powers to make sure that happens and, certainly, there are care homes that do allow it, but there are equally care homes that don't allow it. So, I haven't taken it any further forward, but I absolutely agree, and, certainly, having just become—well, my daughter, not me—the owner of a puppy that we took into a care home to see a relative at Christmas, you can see the pleasure that such things bring to people, but, as you say, when somebody moves into a residential or nursing home and they do have a pet, that can obviously cause significant problems. But perhaps you'd like to invite me to the Bridgend Cats Protection league as well.
Cefais sgwrs gychwynnol gyda swyddogion ynglŷn â hynny. Fe fyddwch yn deall nad yw'r pwerau gennyf i sicrhau bod hynny'n digwydd, ac yn sicr, mae rhai cartrefi gofal yn caniatáu hynny, ond yn yr un modd, ceir cartrefi gofal nad ydynt yn caniatáu hynny. Felly, nid wyf wedi symud ymlaen ymhellach ar hyn, ond rwy'n cytuno'n llwyr, ac yn sicr, ar ôl dod yn berchennog—wel, fy merch, nid fi—ar gi bach a ddaeth gyda ni i gartref gofal i weld perthynas adeg y Nadolig, gallwch weld y pleser y mae pethau o'r fath yn ei roi i bobl, ond fel y dywedwch, pan fydd rhywun yn symud i gartref preswyl neu gartref nyrsio ac mae ganddynt anifail anwes, gall hynny beri problemau sylweddol, yn amlwg. Ond efallai yr hoffech fy ngwahodd i gynghrair Cats Protection Pen-y-bont ar Ogwr hefyd.
In July last year, you said that you weren't minded to follow through with the concept of an animal abuse register for Wales. I'm taking it hard, but there we go, I'll try and move on. But, in that statement, you said that you would look at alternative measures—the RSPCA led that taskforce—you said things in relation to better information sharing between law enforcement, health professionals and animal shelters and organisations. So, could you give me an update on what you're doing from that piece of work?
In other correspondence or oral questions, you seem to be sympathetic to ideas to look at policies in relation to if somebody abuses an animal that they may then transgress by abusing humans. I've not seen as much progress from you as your sentiments indicate in this Chamber, so I'm trying to understand what you're doing on that as well, because we can be stopping perpetrators of domestic abuse if we get them at that early stage.
Ym mis Gorffennaf y llynedd, fe ddywedoch chi nad oeddech yn bwriadu rhoi'r cysyniad o gofrestr cam-drin anifeiliaid ar gyfer Cymru ar waith. Mae hynny'n siom enfawr i mi, ond dyna ni, fe geisiaf symud ymlaen. Ond yn y datganiad hwnnw, fe ddywedoch y byddech yn edrych ar fesurau amgen—yr RSPCA a arweiniodd y tasglu hwnnw—fe ddywedoch chi bethau a oedd yn ymwneud â rhannu gwybodaeth yn well rhwng yr heddlu, gweithwyr iechyd proffesiynol a sefydliadau a llochesau anifeiliaid. Felly, a allwch roi'r wybodaeth ddiweddaraf imi ar yr hyn rydych yn ei wneud mewn perthynas â'r gwaith hwnnw?
Mewn gohebiaeth neu gwestiynau llafar eraill, ymddengys eich bod yn cydymdeimlo â syniadau'n ymwneud ag edrych ar bolisïau mewn perthynas ag os yw rhywun yn cam-drin anifail, efallai y byddant wedyn yn troseddu drwy gam-drin pobl. Nid wyf wedi gweld cymaint o gynnydd gennych ag y mae eich sylwadau yn y Siambr hon yn ei awgrymu, felly rwy'n ceisio deall beth rydych yn ei wneud ynglŷn â hynny hefyd, gan y gallem fod yn atal pobl rhag cyflawni cam-drin domestig pe baem yn eu dal ar y cam cynnar hwnnw.
Two things come to mind straight away. I did have a discussion around this with police officers who are members of the rural crime team up in north Wales. I spent a couple of days with them last year, and this was an area that we discussed and wondered if there was anything further we could do. You will be aware of the work that the RSPCA led on for me, and I do absolutely understand your passion for this. I've also had a discussion and a couple of presentations that the chief veterinary officer arranged for me around what we can do. Certainly, there's a level of work that's done now with vets when they're training to identify, if an animal is brought to them and they're concerned about how that animal was injured, there are questions to be asked and perhaps places they can signpost themselves to for further information. I do think, within the veterinary profession themselves, they are taking this work forward also.
Mae dau beth yn dod i fy meddwl yn syth. Cefais drafodaeth ynglŷn â hyn gyda swyddogion yr heddlu sy'n aelodau o'r tîm troseddau gwledig yng ngogledd Cymru. Treuliais ychydig ddyddiau gyda hwy y llynedd, ac roedd hwn yn faes a drafodasom a buom yn meddwl a oedd unrhyw beth arall y gallem ei wneud. Fe fyddwch yn gwybod am y gwaith a wnaed o dan arweiniad yr RSPCA, ac rwy'n deall eich angerdd ynglŷn â hyn yn llwyr. Rwyf hefyd wedi cael trafodaeth ac wedi gweld un neu ddau o gyflwyniadau a drefnwyd ar fy nghyfer gan y prif swyddog milfeddygol mewn perthynas â'r hyn y gallwn ei wneud. Yn sicr, gwneir lefel o waith ar hyn o bryd gyda milfeddygon pan fyddant yn hyfforddi i nodi, os deuir ag anifail atynt a'u bod yn pryderu ynglŷn â sut y cafodd yr anifail ei anafu, mae cwestiynau i'w gofyn a lleoedd y gallant droi atynt, o bosibl, am ragor o wybodaeth. Rwy'n credu eu bod yn datblygu'r gwaith hwn o fewn y proffesiwn milfeddygol eu hunain hefyd.
Diolch i'r Gweinidog.
Thank you, Minister.
Yr eitem nesaf felly yw'r cwestiynau i'r Gweinidog Tai a Llywodraeth Leol. Mae'r cwestiwn cyntaf gan Mark Reckless.
The next item, therefore, is questions to the Minister for Housing and Local Government. The first question is from Mark Reckless.
1. A wnaiff y Gweinidog ddatganiad am y rhaglen Hunanadeiladu Cymru? OAQ53243
1. Will the Minister make a statement on the Self-Build Wales programme? OAQ53243
Yes. I am very pleased that, last week, the Minister for Finance and Trefnydd announced £40 million for Self Build Wales. Developed in collaboration with partners across the sector, I am confident this innovative scheme, the first of its kind, will be a huge success when it launches properly later this year.
Gwnaf. Rwy'n falch iawn fod y Gweinidog Cyllid a'r Trefnydd, yr wythnos diwethaf, wedi cyhoeddi £40 miliwn ar gyfer rhaglen Hunanadeiladu Cymru. Fe'i datblygwyd mewn cydweithrediad â phartneriaid ar draws y sector, ac rwy'n hyderus y bydd y cynllun arloesol hwn, y cyntaf o'i fath, yn llwyddiant mawr pan fydd yn cael ei lansio'n iawn yn ddiweddarach eleni.
I welcome the Minister to her post. I'm pleased to be able to start by congratulating Welsh Government on what strikes me as a really positive and on the face of it quite generous terms to this initiative. I just wonder, the press release said that loans would be 'repayment free' until the new home was complete and mortgaged, it then says:
'approved applicants can reserve a plot by providing a 25% deposit on the plot cost. The Welsh Government through the Development Bank of Wales will provide the rest of the funding.'
Does that mean that they only pay 25 per cent of the land cost and then all of the construction cost can be borrowed from the development bank? When you say 'repayment free', does that also mean interest free, or will there be interest that then has to be paid back after it's finished?
Rwy'n croesawu'r Gweinidog i'w swydd. Rwy'n falch o allu dechrau drwy longyfarch Llywodraeth Cymru ar yr hyn sydd, yn ôl pob golwg, yn delerau cadarnhaol iawn ac eithaf hael ar gyfer y fenter hon. Ond dywedai'r datganiad i'r wasg na fydd angen dechrau ad-dalu'r benthyciad hyd nes y bydd y cartref newydd wedi'i gwblhau a morgais wedi'i drefnu, ac yna mae'n dweud:
'bydd ymgeiswyr llwyddiannus yn gallu sicrhau plot drwy dalu blaendal o 25% o gost y plot. Llywodraeth Cymru fydd yn darparu gweddill y cyllid drwy Banc Datblygu Cymru.'
A yw hynny'n golygu na fyddant ond yn talu 25 y cant o gost y tir ac y gellir benthyca'r holl gost adeiladu gan y banc datblygu wedyn? Pan ddywedwch na fydd angen ad-dalu, a yw hynny hefyd yn golygu nad oes llog, neu a oes llog y bydd angen ei ad-dalu ar ôl ei gwblhau?
The scheme is quite complex, and we are initially starting off on publicly owned land. So, there'll be a conversation to be had about the value of that land and how it's valued for the scheme. What we're doing is we're basically looking to smooth out the process for people who wouldn't have the resource to do that, so we're looking to have plots that are ready to build on so that they'd be offered to a self-builder with a lot of the usual planning considerations and all the rest of it ironed out.
We're looking to have the scheme offer, just to start off with—I have ambitions to be able to take it further than this, but just to start off with—some template houses. So, people can customise them, but broadly we will be able to get the planning consents in place and so on. So, it's not just the loan finance that we're talking about, it's actually providing people with a plot that's ready to go. A lot of that cost will have been taken out of the project in the first place.
There are some conversations to be had around the specifics depending on the circumstances of the individual in question, how much equity they bring in the first place, what that triggers by way of loan finance and so on, which will need to be ironed out, and will be very individual, depending on the plot, its value, the value that the person brings to it, whether they're going to self-build it in the actual sense of putting the bricks up themselves or whether they will need to fund a developer, and so on. So, lots of nuance. We're very excited about it, but it will depend on where the plot is, and so on. I'm very sorry to give you a lawyer's answer, but 'it depends' is the overarching answer to that. But to be reassuring, all of the things that you enumerated are the things we're looking to see, but they will be very individual, depending on the circumstances of the plot and the person coming forward.
Mae'r cynllun yn eithaf cymhleth, ac i gychwyn, rydym yn dechrau ar dir cyhoeddus. Felly, bydd sgwrs i'w chael am werth y tir hwnnw a sut y caiff ei brisio ar gyfer y cynllun. Yr hyn a wnawn yn y bôn yw ceisio hwyluso'r broses ar gyfer pobl na fyddai ganddynt yr adnoddau i wneud hynny, felly rydym yn gobeithio cael plotiau sy'n barod ar gyfer adeiladu arnynt fel y byddant yn cael eu cynnig i hunanadeiladwr heb fod angen mynd drwy lawer o'r ystyriaethau cynllunio arferol ac yn y blaen.
Rydym yn gobeithio y bydd y cynllun yn cynnig, i ddechrau—mae gennyf uchelgais i fynd ag ef ymhellach na hyn, ond dim ond i ddechrau—rhai tai templed. Felly, gall pobl eu haddasu, ond yn gyffredinol, bydd modd inni sicrhau caniatâd cynllunio ac ati. Felly, nid ydym yn sôn am gyllid drwy fenthyciadau yn unig, rydym yn sôn am ddarparu plot i bobl sy'n barod ar gyfer adeiladu arno. Bydd llawer o'r gost honno wedi'i thynnu allan o'r prosiect yn y lle cyntaf.
Mae ambell sgwrs i'w chael ynghylch y manylion yn dibynnu ar amgylchiadau'r unigolyn o dan sylw, faint o ecwiti y maent yn ei ddarparu yn y lle cyntaf, beth y mae hynny'n ei sbarduno o ran cyllid benthyciad ac ati, a bydd angen penderfynu ar hynny, a bydd yn unigol iawn, yn dibynnu ar y plot, ei werth, y gwerth y mae'r unigolyn yn ei gyfrannu, a fyddant yn ei hunanadeiladu yn yr ystyr o osod y briciau eu hunain neu a fydd angen talu datblygwr, ac ati. Felly, llawer o fanylion. Rydym yn edrych ymlaen yn arw at hyn, ond bydd yn dibynnu ar leoliad y plot, ac ati. Mae'n ddrwg gennyf am roi ateb cyfreithiwr ichi, ond 'mae'n dibynnu' yw'r ateb cyffredinol i hynny. Ond i fod yn galonogol, mae'r holl bethau a grybwylloch yn bethau rydym am eu gweld, ond byddant yn unigol iawn, yn dibynnu ar amgylchiadau'r plot a'r unigolyn dan sylw.
2. Pa gyngor y mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn ei roi i awdurdodau lleol a phartneriaid tai eraill i gefnogi mentrau bach a chanolig sy'n adeiladu tai? OAQ53260
2. What advice does the Welsh Government provide to local authorities and other housing partners to support small and medium sized house building enterprises? OAQ53260
The Welsh Government has a strong track record in supporting small and medium-sized house building enterprises. We provide support directly and, where possible, provide advice to local authorities and other housing partners.
Mae gan Lywodraeth Cymru hanes cryf o gefnogi mentrau bach a chanolig sy'n adeiladu tai. Rydym yn darparu cymorth uniongyrchol, a lle y bo modd, yn rhoi cyngor i awdurdodau lleol a phartneriaid tai eraill.
I thank the Minister very much for that answer. My question partly follows on from the previous question, curiously. Her predecessor announced the £40 million of funding that, because it will quadruple, goes up to £160 million because it's recycled to SMEs over 17 years to help them build more homes in Wales, and I'm really interested in how that is going to be analysed and granulated so that I can see, for example, if not in Ogmore, in the Bridgend area, or even in the Mid Glamorgan area, exactly what effect that is having over time. Now, I know it's still fairly recent, and the announcement was only made in Parc y Scarlets last year. As an Ospreys supporter, I don't mind that, that it was made in Parc y Scarlets. But it would be good, another 12 months down the line, to know what parcels of land have been used within my area or my region, who's been involved in it, and how many of our SMEs have actually been involved in it and have benefited as well, and how many jobs have been created. So, I wonder if we'll be able to do that, not right now, but maybe in 12 months or 24 months.
Diolch yn fawr iawn i'r Gweinidog am ei hateb. Yn rhyfedd iawn, mae fy nghwestiwn yn dilyn ymlaen o'r cwestiwn blaenorol yn rhannol. Cyhoeddodd ei rhagflaenydd y £40 miliwn o arian, sy'n mynd i godi bedair gwaith i £160 miliwn, gan y bydd yn cael ei ailgylchu i fusnesau bach a chanolig dros 17 mlynedd i'w cynorthwyo i adeiladu mwy o gartrefi yng Nghymru, ac mae gennyf gryn ddiddordeb yn sut y bydd yn cael ei ddadansoddi a'i ronynnu fel y gallaf weld, er enghraifft, os nad yn Ogwr, yn ardal Pen-y-bont ar Ogwr, neu hyd yn oed yn ardal Morgannwg Ganol, yn union pa effaith y bydd yn ei chael dros amser. Nawr, gwn fod hyn yn dal i fod yn eithaf diweddar, ac y gwnaed y cyhoeddiad ym Mharc y Scarlets llynedd. Fel cefnogwr y Gweilch, nid oes ots gennyf am hynny, fod y cyhoeddiad wedi'i wneud ym Mharc y Scarlets. Ond byddai'n dda, 12 mis yn ddiweddarach, cael gwybod pa dir sydd wedi ei ddefnyddio yn fy ardal neu fy rhanbarth, pwy sydd wedi bod ynghlwm wrth hyn, a faint o'n BBaChau sydd wedi bod ynghlwm wrth hyn ac wedi elwa hefyd, a faint o swyddi a grëwyd. Felly, tybed a allwn wneud hynny, nid ar hyn o bryd, ond ymhen 12 mis neu 24 mis efallai.
Yes, I don't see any reason why we wouldn't be able to do that. I don't think we can do it at the moment, and, frankly, I haven't asked the question at that level of detail, but I will—I'm very happy to do so. But yes, we absolutely will have a record of where we've lent the money and on what sites, and clearly what we're looking to do here is two things simultaneously: we're looking to stimulate the SME sector in Wales, because at the moment we've got a switch around from 15 years ago, so we've got very large house builders doing most of the house building and not so many SMEs, and we'd very much like to see home-grown SMEs stepping into that space. We'd like to assist with that, and we know that the big problems that they face are around cash flow and with expertise. So, we're looking to put various forms of support in place, as I said. There's the property development fund, which is a facility loan from the development bank, for example, that would allow people to overcome their cash flow problems in circumstances they wouldn't otherwise be able to. We have the stalled sites fund, which has a range of other expertise around it to try and sort out some of the planning and infrastructure problems around that. I actually had a meeting only this morning with officials supporting the Infrastructure Commission for Wales around some of the things the commission might do around planning for infrastructure around Wales—all with a view to bringing forward more sites, to making them viable, and to making sure that our SME builders take advantage of it and, as I said in response to Mark Reckless, trying to be as innovative as possible in that space. So it's not a one-size-fits-all approach at all, it's just trying to fit the finance and the scheme around whoever comes forward to take advantage of it, with a view to getting as wide a range of people as possible to do either a self-build or a build of four or five houses that would be possible in a local community where the big house builders are just not interested.
Ie, ni allaf weld unrhyw reswm pam na fyddem yn gallu gwneud hynny. Ni chredaf y gallwn ei wneud ar hyn o bryd, ac a dweud y gwir, nid wyf wedi gofyn y cwestiwn mor fanwl â hynny, ond fe wnaf—rwy'n fwy na pharod i wneud hynny. Ond bydd, yn bendant, bydd gennym gofnod o ble rydym wedi rhoi benthyg arian ac ar ba safleoedd, ac yn amlwg, rydym yn gobeithio gwneud dau beth ar yr un pryd yma: rydym yn gobeithio ysgogi'r sector BBaChau yng Nghymru, oherwydd ar hyn o bryd rydym mewn sefyllfa wahanol i 15 mlynedd yn ôl, felly mae gennym adeiladwyr tai mawr iawn yn adeiladu'r rhan fwyaf o dai ac nid oes cymaint o BBaChau yn gwneud hynny, a byddem yn falch iawn o weld BBaChau Cymreig yn llenwi'r bwlch hwnnw. Hoffem roi cymorth gyda hynny, a gwyddom fod y problemau mawr sy'n eu hwynebu yn ymwneud â llif arian ac arbenigedd. Felly, rydym yn gobeithio rhoi gwahanol fathau o gymorth ar waith, fel y dywedais. Mae hynny'n cynnwys y gronfa datblygu eiddo, sef benthyciad cyfleuster gan y banc datblygu, er enghraifft, a fyddai'n galluogi pobl i oresgyn eu problemau llif arian mewn amgylchiadau lle na fyddai modd iddynt wneud hynny fel arall. Mae gennym y gronfa safleoedd segur, sydd ag ystod o arbenigedd ynghlwm wrthi er mwyn ceisio datrys rhai o'r problemau cynllunio a seilwaith sy'n gysylltiedig â hynny. Mewn gwirionedd, cefais gyfarfod y bore yma gyda swyddogion sy'n cefnogi Comisiwn Seilwaith Cymru gyda rhai o'r pethau y gall y comisiwn eu gwneud o ran cynllunio seilwaith ledled Cymru—gyda'r nod o ddarparu mwy o safleoedd, sicrhau eu bod yn hyfyw, a sicrhau bod ein hadeiladwyr bach a chanolig yn manteisio ar hyn, ac fel y dywedais yn fy ateb i Mark Reckless, ceisio bod mor arloesol â phosibl yn y maes hwnnw. Felly nid yw'n ddull unffurf o gwbl, mae'n ymwneud â cheisio addasu'r cyllid a'r cynllun ar gyfer pwy bynnag sy'n awyddus i fanteisio arno, gyda'r nod o sicrhau bod amrywiaeth mor eang â phosibl o bobl yn hunanadeiladu, neu'n adeiladu pedwar neu bum tŷ lle y byddai modd gwneud hynny mewn cymuned leol lle nad oes diddordeb gan y cwmnïau adeiladu mawr.
Minister, the flight of SMEs from house building is a UK phenomenon, and it's really stark. In the 1980s, about 40 per cent of house building was conducted by the SME sector; it's as low as 10 per cent in some parts of the country now. We clearly need to turn this around, and I think you're right to look at the stalled sites. Welsh Government research in 2015 said there were nearly 400 such sites in Wales, and many of them, in fact, most of them, would be suitable for the SME sector. We really need to engage that sector. A lot of it is still there and they've gone to other types of building work, but part of the problem has been the unavailability of smaller sites for development, and they're often more efficient in terms of filling in in urban areas, and don't use vast tracts of greenfield land, for instance. So, I really think you're right to identify the stalled sites fund and see some progress in that area, and we need, obviously, if we're going to build at scale again, to re-engage the SME sector.
Weinidog, mae'r diffyg BBaChau sy'n adeiladu tai yn ffenomen yn y DU, ac mae'n wirioneddol syfrdanol. Yn y 1980au, y sector BBaChau oedd yn gwneud tua 40 y cant o'r gwaith adeiladu tai; mae'r ffigur hwnnw mor isel â 10 y cant mewn rhai rhannau o'r wlad bellach. Yn amlwg, mae angen inni wrthdroi hyn, a chredaf eich bod yn iawn i edrych ar y safleoedd segur. Nododd ymchwil Llywodraeth Cymru yn 2015 fod bron i 400 safle o'r fath yng Nghymru, a byddai llawer ohonynt, y rhan fwyaf ohonynt yn wir, yn addas ar gyfer y sector BBaChau. Mae taer angen inni ennyn diddordeb y sector hwnnw. Mae llawer ohono'n dal yno ac maent wedi troi at fathau eraill o waith adeiladu, ond rhan o'r broblem oedd prinder safleoedd llai ar gyfer datblygu, ac maent yn aml yn fwy effeithlon o ran gwneud gwaith llenwi mewn ardaloedd trefol, ac nid ydynt yn defnyddio darnau helaeth o dir glas, er enghraifft. Felly, rwy'n credu'n gryf eich bod yn iawn i nodi'r gronfa safleoedd segur a gweld rhywfaint o gynnydd yn hynny o beth, ac yn amlwg, os ydym am adeiladu ar raddfa fawr unwaith eto, mae angen inni ailymgysylltu â'r BBaChau.
Yes, I completely agree with that. There are a number of policy areas that we're hoping to pull together in a more effective way—so, the housing issues that you've already mentioned and that I've mentioned in the previous two answers. But, we've just done the review of 'Planning Policy Wales' in the middle of December, and that shifts to a more place-based approach, in general, to the planning system.
So, we're looking for planning authorities to set locally determined targets for the delivery of housing on small sites, not just housing in general, and to maintain a register of suitable sites to enable the provision of housing by SMEs, registered social landlords and the custom and self-build sector—so that we smooth, if you like, some of the planning difficulties. As I said, we're looking to see that we can map the infrastructure that's already available, and map the infrastructure requirements, and see if we can fit the finance to that. It's exactly for that purpose: to enable the SME sector to be able to step into that place.
The last piece of that is the skills bit. So, we're also looking at how our apprenticeship programmes can facilitate shared apprenticeships, for example, across small builders and small firms because, often, a small firm struggles to give an apprentice the full range of—. But, the shared apprenticeship schemes have been very successful in that space. We need a lot more skill in that area, and as the Member will know, I share the FM's ambition to build social housing at some scale and pace. We need the SME sector to be able to step into that space as well.
Ie, cytunaf yn llwyr â hynny. Mae nifer o feysydd polisi rydym yn gobeithio eu dwyn ynghyd mewn ffordd fwy effeithiol—felly, y materion tai a grybwyllwyd gennych eisoes ac a grybwyllwyd gennyf innau yn y ddau ateb blaenorol. Ond rydym newydd gwblhau'r adolygiad o 'Polisi Cynllunio Cymru' ganol mis Rhagfyr, ac mae hwnnw'n newid i ddull sy'n fwy seiliedig ar leoedd, yn gyffredinol, mewn perthynas â'r system gynllunio.
Felly, rydym yn awyddus i awdurdodau cynllunio osod targedau a bennir yn lleol ar gyfer darparu tai ar safleoedd bach, nid tai yn gyffredinol yn unig, a chadw cofrestr o safleoedd addas i alluogi BBaChau, landlordiaid cymdeithasol cofrestredig a'r sector adeiladu personol a hunanadeiladu i ddarparu tai—fel ein bod yn llyfnhau, os mynnwch, rhai o'r anawsterau cynllunio. Fel y dywedais, rydym yn edrych i weld a allwn fapio'r seilwaith sydd ar gael eisoes, a mapio'r gofynion seilwaith, a gweld a allwn addasu'r cyllid i hynny. Dyna'n union yw diben hyn: galluogi'r sector BBaChau i lenwi'r bwlch hwnnw.
Y darn olaf o hynny yw'r darn sy'n ymwneud â sgiliau. Felly, rydym hefyd yn ystyried sut y gall ein rhaglenni prentisiaeth hwyluso rhannu prentisiaethau, er enghraifft, ymysg cwmnïau adeiladu bach a busnesau bach, oherwydd yn aml, bydd busnes bach yn ei chael hi'n anodd rhoi ystod lawn i brentis—. Ond mae'r cynlluniau rhannu prentisiaeth wedi bod yn llwyddiannus iawn yn hynny o beth. Mae angen llawer mwy o sgiliau yn y maes hwnnw, ac fel y gŵyr yr Aelod, rwy'n rhannu uchelgais y Prif Weinidog i adeiladu tai cymdeithasol ar raddfa fawr ac ar fyrder. Mae arnom angen i'r sector BBaChau allu llenwi'r bwlch hwnnw hefyd.
Cwestiynau nawr gan lefarwyr y pleidiau. Llefarydd Plaid Cymru—Leanne Wood.
Questions now from the party spokespeople. The Plaid Cymru spokesperson—Leanne Wood.
Diolch, Llywydd. Minister, the chief executive of the Huggard Centre has been quoted in the media as calling on people not to donate tents to rough sleepers. Do you agree with him?
Diolch, Lywydd. Weinidog, dyfynnwyd prif weithredwr Canolfan Huggard yn y cyfryngau yn galw ar bobl i beidio â rhoi pebyll i bobl sy'n cysgu allan. A ydych yn cytuno ag ef?
It's a very, very difficult thing, isn't it, to know exactly what to do when you encounter somebody who is street homeless, and I do understand entirely the impulse that people have to do something immediate for somebody in those circumstances. The difficulty is that we know that, once people have a tent of that sort, they actually access other support services less well, and in a strange sort of way, you are enabling the inability of them to access other services that they need to support them into sustained housing. So, I would never want to criticise somebody who actually wants to help somebody who is street homeless, because your heart goes out to them as you walk through.
A better thing, though, is to engage with the StreetLife project and to bring them to the attention of the local authority. We do fund, in Cardiff and other places, a range of projects that will allow people to get into secure housing, including some of the housing first initiatives that allow people who wouldn't be able to cope with, for example, a large hostel to be able to get off the street and into sustainable housing. So, I'm not going to criticise somebody who wants to do that, but there are better ways of helping people who are street homeless.
Mae'n anodd iawn gwybod beth yn union i'w wneud pan fyddwch yn gweld rhywun sy'n ddigartref ac ar y stryd, ac rwy'n deall awydd pobl i wneud rhywbeth ar unwaith dros rywun sydd yn yr amgylchiadau hynny. Y broblem yw ein bod yn gwybod, pan fydd pobl wedi cael pabell o'r fath, mewn gwirionedd, maent yn llai llwyddiannus o ran cael mynediad at wasanaethau cymorth eraill, ac mewn ffordd ryfedd, rydych yn eu hatal rhag cael mynediad at wasanaethau eraill y maent eu hangen i'w cynorthwyo i gael cartref parhaus. Felly, nid wyf am feirniadu unrhyw un sy'n awyddus i helpu rhywun sy'n ddigartref ar y stryd, gan fod eich calon yn gwaedu drostynt wrth ichi gerdded heibio.
Ond byddai'n well ymgysylltu â phrosiect StreetLife a rhoi gwybod i'r awdurdod lleol amdanynt. Yng Nghaerdydd a mannau eraill, rydym yn ariannu amrywiaeth o brosiectau a fydd yn galluogi pobl i gael llety diogel, gan gynnwys rhai o'r mentrau tai yn gyntaf sy'n caniatáu i bobl na fyddent yn gallu ymdopi, er enghraifft, â hostel mawr i allu dod oddi ar y stryd ac i mewn i gartrefi parhaol. Felly, nid wyf am feirniadu rhywun sydd am wneud hynny, ond mae ffyrdd gwell o helpu pobl sy'n ddigartref ac ar y stryd.
Well, I'm glad that you disagree with the sentiment, Minister, because it's got to be said that a lot of people are very disappointed with those remarks. They seem to suggest that rough sleeping is a lifestyle choice, as opposed to being a consequence of austerity. The homeless people quoted in the story explained that shelters for homeless people could actually be very dangerous, with a lack of security, lack of support, and substance use being rife. Many shelters too often end up warehousing people who have little supervision, and they can then go on to pose a problem for other people who are vulnerable, particularly women, who may have experienced violence.
Whilst we in Plaid Cymru want to ensure that houses are available for all homeless people, in the short term, shelters are still needed to prevent rough sleepers from freezing to death. So, will you commit today to reviewing the existing provision of shelters and hostels, with a view to removing funding from those shelters that are considered to be unsafe or inadequate, so that it can be used, and the funding can be targeted specifically to fund a variety of types of shelter that offer safe and supportive environments, rather than prop up organisations that still blame homeless people for not wanting to be warehoused?
Wel, rwy'n falch eich bod yn anghytuno â'r sylwadau, Weinidog, gan fod yn rhaid dweud bod llawer o bobl yn siomedig iawn ynglŷn â'r sylwadau hynny. Ymddengys eu bod yn awgrymu bod cysgu allan yn ffordd o fyw y mae pobl yn ei dewis, yn hytrach na rhywbeth sy'n ganlyniad i gyni. Eglurai'r bobl ddigartref a ddyfynnwyd yn y stori y gall llochesau i bobl ddigartref fod yn lleoedd peryglus iawn, gyda diffyg diogelwch, diffyg cefnogaeth, a chamddefnyddio sylweddau yn rhemp. Yn rhy aml, mae llawer o lochesau yn pentyrru pobl heb fawr o oruchwyliaeth, a gallant fynd ymlaen i achosi problemau i bobl eraill sy'n agored i niwed, yn enwedig menywod, sydd o bosibl wedi dioddef trais.
Er ein bod ni ym Mhlaid Cymru yn awyddus i sicrhau bod tai ar gael i bawb sy'n ddigartref, yn y tymor byr, mae angen llochesau i atal pobl sy'n cysgu ar y stryd rhag rhewi i farwolaeth. Felly, a wnewch chi ymrwymo heddiw i adolygu'r ddarpariaeth bresennol o lochesau a hostelau, gyda'r bwriad o atal cyllid i'r llochesau yr ystyrir eu bod yn anniogel neu'n annigonol, fel y gellir ei ddefnyddio, a'i dargedu'n benodol i ariannu sawl math o loches sy'n darparu amgylcheddau diogel a chefnogol, yn hytrach na chynnal sefydliadau sy'n dal i roi'r bai ar bobl ddigartref am beidio â bod eisiau cael eu pentyrru?
We are looking to review the whole concept of priority. We've got a review ongoing at the moment, which I inherited from my predecessor in post, Rebecca Evans. I share entirely the sentiments that the Member is expressing there in terms of homelessness. It's a really complex problem, as she knows. I know that she knows that. I completely agree with the statement about warehousing and so on. It's completely unreasonable to expect somebody to go into a 15-bed hostel with people they don't know, leaving their pet outside, for example, and cope with their substance misuse as well. For some people, that will not be the answer. For others, it is the answer temporarily, because they can access other services. She's right: we need to make sure that we have a housing sector fit for purpose, with a proper pipeline—it's a terrible word, but you know what I mean—the proper path, that's a better word, a proper path of people to get their lives back, with all of the things that they need, and we know that a secure home is the absolute core of that. So, making sure that people get into that secure home as fast as possible, because a hostel, where it is suitable for somebody, will only ever be a temporary stopgap to getting them into that secure home, and, actually, making sure that secure home is a home that that person would actually choose for themselves, so they have some volition in it; they're not just pushed into something that they just would never have chosen.
I visited a housing first project run by the Salvation Army in Cardiff last week—my time sense is very bad, as the Member knows; I think it was last week—and it was very impressive indeed. And I met a gentleman there who said that without the housing first strategy, he personally would never have got from his position—which was actually sleeping in a vehicle, but that's just as rough-sleeping as any other sort—into the permanent and secure housing he had because he would not have been able to access the hostel system. So, I agree entirely. We are looking to reassess our systems and our social housing grant, and see how it can best be used to get that proper path, and to actually build the housing, and assisted housing and sheltered housing that people need sometimes in order to be able to cope with the circumstances they find themselves in.
And just to be absolutely clear and cover off all the bits she said: it's quite obvious that it's not something that somebody's choosing, it's just sometimes they're choosing it because the alternatives available to them are even worse. And that's a completely different use of the word 'choice'.
Rydym yn gobeithio adolygu'r cysyniad o flaenoriaeth. Mae gennym adolygiad ar waith ar hyn o bryd, un a etifeddais gan fy rhagflaenydd yn y swydd, Rebecca Evans. Rwy'n cytuno'n llwyr â'r teimladau a fynegodd yr Aelod o ran digartrefedd. Mae'n broblem wirioneddol gymhleth, fel y gŵyr. Gwn ei bod yn gwybod hynny. Rwy'n cytuno'n llwyr â'r datganiad ynglŷn â phentyrru ac ati. Mae'n gwbl afresymol disgwyl i rywun fynd i hostel 15 gwely gyda phobl nad ydynt yn eu hadnabod, gan adael eu hanifail anwes y tu allan, er enghraifft, ac ymdopi â'u problem camddefnyddio sylweddau hefyd. I rai pobl, nid dyna fydd yr ateb. I eraill, mae'n ateb dros dro, gan y gallant gael mynediad at wasanaethau eraill. Mae'n llygad ei lle: mae angen inni sicrhau bod gennym sector tai sy'n addas i'r diben, gyda llif priodol, neu lwybr priodol, er mwyn i bobl allu cael eu bywydau yn ôl, gyda'r holl bethau sydd eu hangen arnynt, a gwyddom fod cartref diogel yn gwbl greiddiol i hynny. Felly, sicrhau bod pobl yn llwyddo i fynd i'r cartref diogel hwnnw cyn gynted â phosibl, gan na fydd hostel, os yw'n addas i rywun, ond yn rhywbeth dros dro cyn iddynt allu mynd i'r cartref diogel hwnnw, ac mewn gwirionedd, sicrhau bod cartref diogel yn gartref y byddai'r unigolyn yn ei ddewis eu hunain, fel eu bod â rhywfaint o lais yn y mater; nid cael eu gwthio i mewn i rywbeth na fyddent byth wedi'i ddewis.
Ymwelais â phrosiect tai yn gyntaf sy'n cael ei redeg gan Fyddin yr Iachawdwriaeth yng Nghaerdydd yr wythnos diwethaf—mae fy synnwyr o amser yn wael iawn, fel y gŵyr yr Aelod; yr wythnos diwethaf oedd hi, rwy'n credu—ac roedd yn drawiadol iawn. A chyfarfûm â gŵr bonheddig yno a ddywedodd, heb y strategaeth tai yn gyntaf, na fyddai ef yn bersonol byth wedi mynd o'r sefyllfa roedd ynddi—roedd yn arfer cysgu mewn cerbyd, ond mae hynny lawn cyn waethed ag unrhyw fath o gysgu allan—i'r cartref parhaol a diogel a gafodd gan na fyddai wedi gallu cael mynediad at y system hostelau. Felly, rwy'n cytuno'n llwyr. Rydym yn gobeithio ailasesu ein systemau a'n grant tai cymdeithasol, a gweld sut y gellir eu defnyddio yn y ffordd orau i sicrhau'r llwybr priodol hwnnw, ac adeiladu'r tai, a'r tai â chymorth a'r tai gwarchod sydd eu hangen ar bobl weithiau er mwyn gallu ymdopi â'u hamgylchiadau.
Ac i fod yn gwbl glir ac i ateb pob rhan o'r hyn a ddywedodd: mae'n amlwg iawn nad yw'n rhywbeth y mae rhywun yn ei ddewis, ond weithiau maent yn ei ddewis am fod yr opsiynau eraill sydd ar gael iddynt hyd yn oed yn waeth. Ac mae hwnnw'n ddefnydd cwbl wahanol o'r gair 'dewis'.
Thank you for your full answer to that question, Minister. You will know that I've been an advocate for some time of the Welsh Government adopting all of the recommendations in the Crisis report, which outlines very clearly how we can end homelessness. However, we know that deaths among people who are homeless has risen by 24 per cent over the last five years, which isn't surprising given more people are homeless and facing that situation. So, tackling rough-sleeping is a national emergency, and we can't now wait for any more reviews or task and finish groups. So, will you therefore commit today to just adopting one of those recommendations, and that is: will you introduce a duty to provide immediate emergency accommodation to all those with nowhere safe to stay until priority need is abolished?
Diolch am eich ateb llawn i'r cwestiwn hwnnw, Weinidog. Gwyddoch fy mod, ers peth amser, wedi bod yn awyddus i Lywodraeth Cymru fabwysiadu'r holl argymhellion yn adroddiad Crisis, sy'n amlinellu'n glir iawn sut y gallwn roi diwedd ar ddigartrefedd. Fodd bynnag, gwyddom fod nifer y marwolaethau ymhlith pobl ddigartref wedi codi 24 y cant dros y pum mlynedd diwethaf, ac nid yw hynny'n syndod o ystyried bod mwy o bobl yn ddigartref ac yn wynebu'r sefyllfa honno. Felly, mae mynd i'r afael â chysgu allan yn argyfwng cenedlaethol, ac ni allwn aros am fwy o adolygiadau neu grwpiau gorchwyl a gorffen. Felly, a wnewch chi ymrwymo heddiw i fabwysiadu un o'r argymhellion hynny, sef: a wnewch chi gyflwyno dyletswydd i ddarparu llety brys ar unwaith i bawb heb le diogel i aros tan y caiff angen blaenoriaethol ei ddiddymu?
I wish that I could say just 'yes' to that—I am looking at it. I'm about to meet with Crisis to talk through where we are with that, and I've commissioned a brief for myself. Housing is a new area for me, and I've only been in post for however many weeks it is—six weeks or something. So, I've commissioned a brief for myself around that report to understand where we are at the moment, and to see what the way forward is. So, I'm going to stop short of committing it today, but I am very seriously looking to see what we can do in that space.
Carwn allu dweud 'gwnaf' i hynny—rwy'n ystyried y mater. Rwyf ar fin cyfarfod â Crisis i drafod ein sefyllfa mewn perthynas â hynny, ac rwyf wedi comisiynu briff ar fy nghyfer fy hun. Mae tai yn faes newydd i mi, ac nid wyf ond wedi bod yn y swydd ers faint bynnag o wythnosau—chwe wythnos neu rywbeth. Felly, rwyf wedi comisiynu briff ar fy nghyfer fy hun mewn perthynas â'r adroddiad hwnnw i ddeall ein sefyllfa ar hyn o bryd, ac i weld beth yw'r ffordd ymlaen. Felly, nid wyf am wneud unrhyw ymrwymiad heddiw, ond rwy'n ystyried o ddifrif i weld beth y gallwn ei wneud ar hynny.
Llefarydd y Ceidwadwyr, Mark Isherwood.
Conservative spokesperson, Mark Isherwood.
Diolch, Llywydd. Speaking after the 15 January publication of the Wales Audit Office report on the standards of financial management in community councils, the Welsh Government Trefnydd, or business organiser, said last week:
'I know that the Minister clearly will be considering that report. Members will have the opportunity to question her on that in her question time next week.'
So, here goes. [Laughter.]
In the report, the auditor general called on the Welsh Government for urgent action. He said the current standard of financial management in Government remains disappointing, as too many town and community councils in this financial year had suffered qualified audit opinions, with the number of opinions doubling; that town and community councils continued to manage increasing sums of public money; that income continues to outstrip expenditure as reserves continue to increase; and the report concluded that a significant number of councils failed to comply with their statutory responsibilities for preparing their accounts and ensuring that proper arrangements are made for the statutory audit.
Well, obviously, a number of days have elapsed since then. Have you reached any conclusions? What actions do you propose, and will you potentially revisit the reserved powers available to you under the 2011 Local Government (Wales) Measure, to introduce a statutory scheme for the accreditation of quality in community government?
Diolch, Lywydd. Wrth siarad ar ôl cyhoeddi adroddiad Swyddfa Archwilio Cymru ar 15 Ionawr ar safonau rheolaeth ariannol mewn cynghorau cymuned, dywedodd Trefnydd Llywodraeth Cymru, neu'r trefnydd busnes, yr wythnos diwethaf:
'Gwn y bydd y Gweinidog, yn amlwg, yn ystyried yr adroddiad hwnnw. Caiff yr Aelodau gyfle i'w holi hi ar hynny yn ystod ei sesiwn gwestiynau yr wythnos nesaf.'
Felly, dyma ni. [Chwerthin.]
Yn yr adroddiad, roedd yr archwilydd cyffredinol yn galw ar Lywodraeth Cymru i weithredu ar frys. Dywedodd fod safon rheolaeth ariannol yn y Llywodraeth yn dal i fod yn siomedig, gan fod gormod o gynghorau tref a chymuned yn y flwyddyn ariannol hon wedi dioddef yn sgil barnau archwilio amodol, gyda nifer y barnau'n dyblu; fod cynghorau tref a chymuned yn parhau i reoli symiau cynyddol o arian cyhoeddus; fod incwm yn parhau i fod yn uwch na gwariant wrth i gronfeydd wrth gefn barhau i gynyddu; a daeth yr adroddiad i'r casgliad fod nifer sylweddol o gynghorau wedi methu cydymffurfio â'u cyfrifoldebau statudol i baratoi eu cyfrifon a sicrhau y gwneir trefniadau priodol ar gyfer yr archwiliad statudol.
Wel, yn amlwg, mae sawl diwrnod wedi bod ers hynny. A ydych wedi dod i unrhyw gasgliadau? Pa gamau rydych yn eu cynnig, ac a wnewch chi ailystyried, o bosibl, y pwerau wrth gefn sydd ar gael i chi o dan Fesur Llywodraeth Leol (Cymru) 2011, i gyflwyno cynllun statudol ar gyfer achredu ansawdd mewn llywodraeth gymunedol?
It's a very interesting report. As you know, I've only been in post six weeks, so I haven't had the time, in any way, to fully—. I've skim-read it—that's the best I could do in the time I had available. I do, however, plan to read it thoroughly and to take it into account. I have a number of views of my own around town and community councils, which I'm happy to share with the Member, and with the Senedd in general. Some of them are excellent. We have examples across Wales of excellent town councils. Some of them are very far from that because they haven't got the governance strength, if you like, to be able to conduct themselves. That report is pointing that out. What we need to do is look to see whether we have the best fit for our town and community councils across Wales, whether their own communities support them, and what we can do to strengthen the governance arrangements. So, I find nothing that I disagree with, in a quick read of the report. I'm not yet in a position to respond fully to it. But I will tell the Member that I will be responding fully to it, and it raises a number of issues that I have myself personal concerns with, from previous experience in life.
Mae'n adroddiad diddorol iawn. Fel y gwyddoch, nid wyf ond yn y swydd hon ers chwe wythnos, felly nid wyf wedi cael amser, mewn unrhyw ffordd, i—. Rwyf wedi ei frasddarllen—dyna'r gorau y gallais ei wneud yn yr amser a oedd ar gael. Fodd bynnag, rwy'n bwriadu ei ddarllen yn drylwyr a'i ystyried. Mae gennyf nifer o safbwyntiau fy hun ynghylch cynghorau tref a chymuned, ac rwy'n fwy na pharod i'w rhannu gyda'r Aelod, a chyda'r Senedd yn gyffredinol. Mae rhai ohonynt yn rhagorol. Mae gennym enghreifftiau ledled Cymru o gynghorau tref ardderchog. Mae rhai ohonynt yn bell iawn o hynny gan nad oes ganddynt y cryfder llywodraethu, os mynnwch, i allu cynnal eu hunain. Mae'r adroddiad hwnnw'n nodi hynny. Yr hyn sydd angen inni ei wneud yw edrych i weld a yw'r trefniadau sydd gennym yn addas ar gyfer ein cynghorau tref a chymuned ledled Cymru, a yw eu cymunedau eu hunain yn eu cefnogi, a beth y gallwn ei wneud i gryfhau'r trefniadau llywodraethu. Felly, nid wyf wedi gweld unrhyw beth rwy'n anghytuno ag ef wrth fwrw golwg sydyn ar yr adroddiad hwnnw. Nid wyf mewn sefyllfa eto i ymateb yn llawn iddo. Ond fe ddywedaf wrth yr Aelod y byddaf yn ymateb yn llawn iddo, ac mae'n codi nifer o faterion sy'n peri pryder i mi'n bersonol, o brofiad blaenorol mewn bywyd.
Thank you. And of course when I was a community councillor it was an excellent community council—despite me, but nonetheless. Clearly, it's not a universal problem, but it's a serious enough problem to have been flagged up in this way. The independent review panel's final report on community and town councils in Wales was presented to your predecessor on 3 October. It had many recommendations, including the belief that there should be a comprehensive review of boundaries of community and town councils, without delay; it called upon all community and town councils to be working towards meeting a criteria to be able to exercise the general power of competence; a recommendation that community and town councils, or a representative of them, should become a statutorily invited participant on all public service boards. I'll just give one other example: it recommended that all clerks must hold or be working towards a professional qualification.
The Welsh Government's response, by your predecessor, took the form of a written statement on 30 November, and said that:
'Some of the issues identified…merit further consideration…I look forward to exploring these wider ranging and, in some cases, more contested ideas…I see this as a start of a conversation'.
How do you respond to the county councillors, after attending a workshop recently in north Wales, who wrote to me concerned that they had been advised, quote, that it seems the Welsh Government is now minded not to enact any legislation to implement any of the recommendations the IRP panel set out?
Diolch. Ac wrth gwrs, pan oeddwn yn gynghorydd cymuned, roedd yn gyngor cymuned rhagorol—er fy ngwaethaf i, ond ta waeth am hynny. Yn amlwg, nid yw'n broblem ym mhob man, ond mae'n broblem ddigon difrifol i gael ei nodi yn y modd hwn. Cyflwynwyd adroddiad terfynol y panel adolygu annibynnol ar gynghorau tref a chymuned yng Nghymru i'ch rhagflaenydd ar 3 Hydref. Roedd yn cynnwys nifer o argymhellion, gan gynnwys y gred y dylid cynnal adolygiad cynhwysfawr o ffiniau cynghorau tref a chymuned, a hynny ar unwaith; roedd yn galw ar yr holl gynghorau tref a chymuned i weithio tuag at fodloni meini prawf i allu arfer y pŵer cymhwysedd cyffredinol; argymhelliad y dylai cynghorau tref a chymuned, neu gynrychiolydd, ddod yn gyfranogwr a wahoddir yn statudol ar bob bwrdd gwasanaethau cyhoeddus. Rwyf am roi un enghraifft arall: roedd yn argymell y dylai fod cymhwyster proffesiynol gan bob glerc neu eu bod yn gweithio tuag at un.
Cafwyd ymateb Llywodraeth Cymru, gan eich rhagflaenydd, ar ffurf datganiad ysgrifenedig ar 30 Tachwedd, a ddywedai:
'Mae rhai o'r materion a nodwyd... yn haeddu cael eu hystyried ymhellach... Rwy'n edrych ymlaen at ymchwilio i'r syniadau mwy pellgyrhaeddol, rhai ohonynt hefyd yn fwy dadleuol... Rwy'n gweld hyn fel dechrau sgwrs'.
Sut rydych yn ymateb i'r cynghorwyr sir a ysgrifennodd ataf ar ôl mynychu gweithdy yn ddiweddar yng ngogledd Cymru yn pryderu eu bod wedi cael clywed, ac rwy'n dyfynnu, ei bod hi'n ymddangos bellach fod Llywodraeth Cymru o blaid peidio â deddfu i roi unrhyw un o argymhellion y panel adolygu annibynnol ar waith?
Well, I certainly haven't reached that conclusion. As I said to you, I haven't fully considered the recent WAO report. I have had slightly more time to consider the findings of the review. I think it's a good basis on which to move forward, and it certainly will inform our policy approach moving forward. There are a number of issues with town and community councils—around size and capacity and so on—which need to be looked at. In some areas of Wales, we don't have any town and community councils; in others, we have lots and lots. So, clearly, a one-size-fits-all approach has not grown up organically, and we need to have a look to see whether a one-size-fits-all approach is necessary, whether the boundaries—or whether, actually, a community that feels like a community is best represented in a much smaller council. But then that council wouldn't necessarily be well placed to have the resource to sit on, for example, a public services board. So, I just think it's impossible to respond to that by saying all community councils should have a place on a public services board, because, frankly, if they represent a tiny village somewhere, they're just not going to have the capacity to do that, although it may be a perfectly well-functioning council for all kinds of other reasons. So, I think we want to look very carefully at where we know there is good practice, what that might look like. But I think, actually, in the end, a community council should be what it says it is—a council for its community—and we should allow communities to make those choices in accordance with the local democracy that they ought to enjoy.
Wel, yn sicr, nid wyf wedi dod i'r casgliad hwnnw. Fel y dywedais wrthych, nid wyf wedi ystyried adroddiad diweddar Swyddfa Archwilio Cymru yn llawn eto. Rwyf wedi cael ychydig mwy o amser i ystyried canfyddiadau'r adolygiad. Credaf ei fod yn gosod sail dda ar gyfer y dyfodol, ac yn sicr, bydd yn llywio ein polisi wrth symud ymlaen. Mae nifer o broblemau'n codi gyda chynghorau tref a chymuned—o ran maint a chapasiti ac ati—ac mae angen eu hystyried. Mewn rhai ardaloedd o Gymru, nid oes gennym unrhyw gynghorau tref a chymuned; mewn ardaloedd eraill, mae gennym lu ohonynt. Felly, yn amlwg, nid oes dull unffurf o weithredu wedi datblygu'n organig, ac mae angen inni edrych i weld a oes angen dull unffurf o weithredu, a yw'r ffiniau—neu mewn gwirionedd, ai'r ffordd orau o gynrychioli cymuned sy'n teimlo fel cymuned yw drwy gyngor llawer llai o faint. Ond ni fyddai'r cyngor hwnnw mewn sefyllfa dda o reidrwydd i fod â'r adnoddau i fod ar fwrdd gwasanaethau cyhoeddus, er enghraifft. Felly, credaf ei bod yn amhosibl ymateb i hynny drwy ddweud y dylai pob cyngor cymuned gael lle ar fwrdd gwasanaethau cyhoeddus, oherwydd, a dweud y gwir, os ydynt yn cynrychioli pentref bach yn rhywle, ni fydd y capasiti ganddynt i wneud hynny, er y gall fod yn gyngor sy'n gweithio'n dda iawn am bob math o resymau eraill. Felly, credaf y dylem edrych yn ofalus iawn ar y lleoedd y gwyddom y ceir arferion da, a sut bethau yw'r rheini. Ond yn y bôn, rwy'n credu y dylai cyngor cymuned fod yn union hynny—cyngor ar gyfer ei gymuned—a dylem ganiatáu i gymunedau wneud y dewisiadau hynny yn unol â'r ddemocratiaeth leol y dylent allu ei fwynhau.
Well, this recommendation did include a representative of town and community councils, rather than necessarily—
Wel, roedd yr argymhelliad hwn yn cynnwys cynrychiolydd o gynghorau tref a chymuned, yn hytrach nag o reidrwydd—
I take the point the Member makes, but there are capacity issues there, and how you get that—
Rwy'n derbyn y pwynt y mae'r Aelod yn ei wneud, ond mae yna broblemau ynghylch capasiti, a sut rydych yn sicrhau—
Allow the Member to finish his third question. You're overexcited in your new ministerial brief, it's obvious.
Gadewch i'r Aelod orffen ei drydydd cwestiwn. Rydych wedi cynhyrfu yn eich briff gweinidogol newydd, mae'n amlwg.
I beg your pardon.
Mae'n ddrwg gennyf.
Allow Mark Isherwood to continue.
Gadewch i Mark Isherwood barhau.
I'm overcome by enthusiasm.
Mae fy mrwdfrydedd yn drech na mi.
As you've heard mentioned by more than one Member in the Chamber, last November, Flintshire council launched its #BacktheAsk campaign in full council, and received full and unanimous cross-party support to, quote, take the fight down to the local government department in Cardiff to get a fair share of national funds. In a subsequent letter to the Welsh Government, he stated, alongside the chief executive, that disparity in formula-based funding inevitably creates a wide variation in the financial risks in councils in Wales, and Flintshire is at the extreme end. I've now been copied in on a series of e-mails between councillors of all parties—including the leader—where they're proposing to come down, as a cross-party group, here, to, quote,
'Take our budget grievances direct to Cardiff'.
And the e-mail from the leader states that he will be seeking a meeting with Ministers during that visit. Will you be willing to meet the Flintshire councillors who come down, to discuss their, quote, 'grievances', and see whether there are any grounds for addressing those together?
Fel y clywsoch gan fwy nag un Aelod yn y Siambr, fis Tachwedd diwethaf, lansiodd Cyngor Sir y Fflint eu hymgyrch #CefnogiGalw yn y cyfarfod llawn, a chawsant gefnogaeth drawsbleidiol lawn ac unfrydol i, ac rwy'n dyfynnu, fynd â'r frwydr i lawr i'r adran lywodraeth leol yng Nghaerdydd i gael cyfran deg o'r arian cenedlaethol. Mewn llythyr dilynol i Lywodraeth Cymru, dywedodd, ochr yn ochr â'r prif weithredwr, ei bod yn anochel fod yr anghyfartalwch mewn cyllid sy'n seiliedig ar fformiwla yn creu amrywiaeth eang o ran y risgiau ariannol sy'n wynebu cynghorau Cymru, ac mae sir y Fflint ar y pegwn eithaf. Bellach, rwyf wedi cael fy nghopïo i mewn i gyfres o negeseuon e-bost rhwng cynghorwyr o bob plaid—gan gynnwys yr arweinydd—lle y maent yn cynnig dod i lawr yma, fel grŵp trawsbleidiol, er mwyn, ac rwy'n dyfynnu,
Mynd â'n cwynion ynglŷn â'r cyllideb yn uniongyrchol i Gaerdydd.
A dywed yr e-bost gan yr arweinydd y bydd yn ceisio cael cyfarfod â Gweinidogion yn ystod yr ymweliad hwnnw. A ydych yn barod i gyfarfod â chynghorwyr sir y Fflint sy'n dod i yma i drafod, dyfynnaf, eu 'cwynion', a gweld a oes unrhyw fodd o fynd i'r afael â'r rheini gyda'n gilydd?
I'm afraid I don't know the date on which they're planning to come down. If it's possible for me to meet them, I certainly will. However, I've just come from the finance sub-group of the partnership council for Wales this morning where the leader of Flintshire council was a participant. I think we had a very amicable and useful conversation there about the way that the formula works.
I specifically asked if there were any areas of the formula that people wanted to revisit. We're very open to revisiting the formula, as long as it produces the kinds of results that all of local government want to see, which is a fair and equitable distribution mechanism, which irons out some of the winners and losers, and, as you know, we fully fund the funding floor on the basis of that. That meeting went very well and there were no dissenting voices to that. The distribution sub-group that works on the formula will be meeting. Today's meeting was able to sign-off the work programme for the distribution sub-group. So, I don't really recognise the picture that the Member paints there.
There's obviously a completely different and perhaps misunderstanding issue around the size of the pot in the first place on which the distribution formula takes effect. And the size of the pot in the first place is, of course, driven by the austerity measures of the Conservative Government in the UK. So, we are only able to distribute the funds that we have available to us, and so I don't think that I'm going to be taking any lessons from the Member opposite about how to deal with the fund overall. But if he's talking about the distribution mechanism, then Aaron Shotton was one of the members of the group. The group was amicable, the Deputy Minister and I attended it, and we had a very useful meeting with local government. I was very grateful to them for the friendliness of their approach and no issues were raised with me of that sort.
Mae arnaf ofn nad wyf yn gwybod pa ddyddiad y maent yn bwriadu dod yma. Os oes modd i mi gyfarfod â hwy, fe wnaf hynny, yn sicr. Fodd bynnag, rwyf newydd ddod o is-grŵp cyllid cyngor partneriaeth Cymru y bore yma lle roedd arweinydd Cyngor Sir y Fflint yn gyfranogwr. Credaf inni gael sgwrs gyfeillgar a defnyddiol iawn ynglŷn â sut y mae'r fformiwla'n gweithio.
Gofynnais yn benodol a oedd unrhyw rannau o'r fformiwla roedd pobl am ailedrych arnynt. Rydym yn agored iawn i ailedrych ar y fformiwla, cyhyd â bod hynny'n cynhyrchu'r mathau o ganlyniadau y mae llywodraeth leol am eu gweld, sef mecanwaith dosbarthu teg a chyfartal, sy'n lefelu rhywfaint o'r enillwyr a'r collwyr, ac fel y gwyddoch, rydym yn ariannu'r cyllid gwaelodol yn gyfan gwbl ar sail hynny. Aeth y cyfarfod hwnnw'n dda iawn ac ni chafwyd unrhyw sylwadau croes. Bydd yr is-grŵp dosbarthu sy'n gweithio ar y fformiwla yn cyfarfod. Nod y cyfarfod heddiw oedd gallu cymeradwyo'r rhaglen waith ar gyfer yr is-grŵp dosbarthu. Felly, nid wyf yn cydnabod y darlun y mae'r Aelod yn ei baentio mewn gwirionedd.
Yn amlwg, ceir mater hollol wahanol a chamddealltwriaeth efallai ynghylch maint y pot yn y lle cyntaf sy'n sail i'r fformiwla ddosbarthu. Ac mae maint y pot yn y lle cyntaf, wrth gwrs, yn cael ei bennu gan fesurau cyni Llywodraeth Geidwadol y DU. Felly, ni allwn wneud dim ond dosbarthu'r arian sydd ar gael i ni, ac felly ni chredaf fy mod am dderbyn unrhyw wersi gan yr Aelod gyferbyn ynglŷn â sut i ymdrin â'r gronfa yn ei chyfanrwydd. Ond os yw'n sôn am y mecanwaith dosbarthu, roedd Aaron Shotton yn un o aelodau'r grŵp. Roedd y grŵp yn gyfeillgar, fe'i mynychwyd gan y Dirprwy Weinidog a minnau, a chawsom gyfarfod defnyddiol iawn gyda llywodraeth leol. Roeddwn yn ddiolchgar iawn iddynt am eu hagwedd gyfeillgar ac ni chodwyd unrhyw faterion o'r math hwnnw gyda mi.
Llefarydd UKIP, Gareth Bennett.
UKIP spokesperson, Gareth Bennett.
Diolch, Llywydd. I'd like to welcome the Minister to her new post. Minister, I see that planning is now part of your portfolio, it wasn't previously included with the local government and housing department's responsibilities. I appreciate what you've said today that you've only been in office for six weeks, but do you have any initial thoughts on how well the planning process works in Wales?
Diolch, Lywydd. Hoffwn groesawu'r Gweinidog i'w swydd newydd. Weinidog, gwelaf fod cynllunio yn rhan o'ch portffolio bellach, ac nid oedd yn rhan o gyfrifoldebau'r adran lywodraeth leol a thai o'r blaen. Rwy'n derbyn yr hyn rydych wedi'i ddweud heddiw ynglŷn â'r ffaith nad ydych ond wedi bod yn y swydd ers chwe wythnos, ond a oes gennych unrhyw syniadau cychwynnol ynglŷn â pha mor dda y mae'r broses gynllunio yn gweithio yng Nghymru?
So, the reason that we've combined planning into this portfolio is that we can bring together as many of the levers that we have here in the Welsh Government to solve some of the endemic problems that we have with, for example, building sufficient housing or some infrastructure issues. I'm looking forward to being able to use all of those levers together in the process. We did just reissue 'Planning Policy Wales' back in December, so it's early days to see yet whether that's working effectively.
Y rheswm pam ein bod wedi cyfuno cynllunio yn y portffolio hwn yw am y gallwn ddwyn cymaint o'r dulliau sydd gennym yma yn Llywodraeth Cymru ynghyd i ddatrys rhai o'r problemau endemig sydd gennym, er enghraifft, gydag adeiladu digon o dai neu faterion seilwaith. Edrychaf ymlaen at allu defnyddio'r holl dulliau hynny gyda'i gilydd yn y broses. Ailgyhoeddasom 'Polisi Cynllunio Cymru' ym mis Rhagfyr, felly mae'n ddyddiau cynnar ar hyn o bryd o ran gweld a yw hwnnw'n gweithio'n effeithiol.
Thank you for clarifying some of the reasons why the planning element has been brought into the department. I think, certainly from my point of view, it's probably useful. I always thought that planning was something that straddles a couple of different possible departments. But I always thought putting it together with housing would perhaps make things easier.
Of course, we do need to respond to housing need, but there is also an argument that the planning system isn't always responsive to local needs going the other way, when sometimes we have planning decisions made that have been rejected sometimes by local councils, but which then get approved by the planning inspector going against that. Now, obviously, I'm not going to bring in any specific cases, because you wouldn't be able to comment on them, but do you think that there is a valid argument that planning isn't responsive enough to local needs?
Diolch am egluro rhai o'r rhesymau pam y daethpwyd â'r elfen cynllunio i'r adran. O'm rhan i, yn sicr, credaf fod hynny'n ddefnyddiol, mae'n debyg. Roeddwn bob amser wedi meddwl bod cynllunio'n rhywbeth sy'n rhychwantu sawl adran wahanol. Ond roeddwn bob amser o'r farn y byddai ei gyfuno â thai yn gwneud pethau'n haws o bosibl.
Wrth gwrs, mae angen inni ymateb i'r angen am dai, ond ceir dadl hefyd nad yw'r system gynllunio bob amser yn ymateb i anghenion lleol sy'n mynd i'r cyfeiriad arall, pan fydd gennym benderfyniadau cynllunio o bryd i'w gilydd sydd wedi cael eu gwrthod gan gynghorau lleol, ond sy'n cael eu cymeradwyo wedyn wrth i'r arolygydd cynllunio farnu'n erbyn hynny. Nawr, yn amlwg, nid wyf am sôn am unrhyw achos penodol, gan na fyddai modd i chi roi sylwadau arnynt, ond a ydych yn credu bod dadl ddilys i'w chael nad yw cynllunio'n ddigon ymatebol i anghenion lleol?
So, the planning system is extremely complex, and the quasi-judicial nature of it makes it very difficult to comment on particular cases. The Member will be very well aware that at local authority level the local authority sets the local development plan, and they are enabled, through that plan, to take full account of the democratic wishes of the people they represent in setting out the spatial needs of their area, with a set of planning rules, part of which are 'Planning Policy Wales', but a set of planning rules stemming from various planning Acts at UK level, as well as at Welsh level.
We have a system of call-in to the Welsh Government, which works, because we take a very careful judicial view of whether the very specific criteria for call-in do or don't work. And where something is called in, it is handed over to professional inspectors for them to take a view on behalf of the Government. I think that works perfectly well. I do think there are capacity issues, sometimes, with the speed of that, but I don't see any reason to upend the legal part of that. However, it's very important that the policy parts of that interact correctly with it and that we set the policy agenda properly within which the quasi-judicial system can work.
Mae'r system gynllunio'n gymhleth iawn, ac mae ei natur led-farnwrol yn ei gwneud hi'n anodd iawn rhoi sylwadau ar achosion penodol. Bydd yr Aelod yn ymwybodol iawn mai'r awdurdod lleol sy'n pennu'r cynllun datblygu lleol ar lefel awdurdod lleol, a thrwy'r cynllun hwnnw, gallant roi ystyriaeth lawn i ddymuniadau democrataidd y bobl maent yn eu cynrychioli wrth nodi anghenion gofodol eu hardal, gyda set o reolau cynllunio, sy'n cynnwys 'Polisi Cynllunio Cymru' yn rhan ohonynt, ond set o reolau cynllunio sy'n deillio o Ddeddfau cynllunio amrywiol ar lefel y DU, yn ogystal ag ar lefel Cymru.
Mae gennym system alw ceisiadau i mewn i Lywodraeth Cymru, sy'n gweithio, gan ein bod yn rhoi ystyriaeth farnwrol ofalus iawn i ba un a yw'r meini prawf penodol iawn ar gyfer galw ceisiadau i mewn yn gweithio ai peidio. A phan fydd rhywbeth yn cael ei alw i mewn, caiff ei drosglwyddo i arolygwyr proffesiynol fel y gallant ffurfio barn ar ran y Llywodraeth. Credaf fod hynny'n gweithio'n iawn. Credaf fod materion yn codi mewn perthynas â chapasiti weithiau, a chyflymder y broses, ond nid wyf yn gweld unrhyw reswm dros gael gwared ar y rhan gyfreithiol o hynny. Fodd bynnag, mae'n bwysig iawn fod y rhannau sy'n ymwneud â pholisi'n rhyngweithio'n gywir â hynny, a'n bod yn gosod yr agenda bolisi'n briodol fel y gall y system led-farnwrol weithio'n iawn o fewn hynny.
Thanks for you assessment of how it works with the call-in system. I'm glad you've given your thoughts on that. How about the issue of how effective the local development plans are as a measure of setting local needs, because there has been criticism of the LDP system itself in recent years?
Diolch am eich asesiad ynglŷn â'r modd y mae hynny'n gweithio gyda'r system alw i mewn. Rwy'n falch eich bod wedi rhoi eich barn ar hynny. Beth am y cwestiwn ynglŷn â pha mor effeithiol yw'r cynlluniau datblygu lleol fel mesur ar gyfer pennu anghenion lleol, gan fod system y cynlluniau datblygu lleol ei hun wedi bod o dan y lach dros y blynyddoedd diwethaf?
I think that the issue with the LDPs sometimes is the speed and the capacity with which local authorities are able to put them together. We have been working very closely with local authorities across Wales to ensure that they have the expertise to put the local development plans in place. It's something we are always keeping under review around the capacity to do that and the way that we have the agreements with the local authorities about the timescale for doing that.
I think personally that there's room for improvement in the liaison between ourselves and local authorities around how they structure their LDPs and what provision we help them with in order to accelerate some of those processes, because a local authority that doesn't have a local development plan in place will find real problems in controlling its development-control functions and being able to resist planning applications outwith its plan. So, it's not a good plan not to have a plan—sorry, that seems really obvious—but it isn't a good plan, and I think we could work with our local authorities better to accelerate that process.
Credaf mai'r broblem gyda chynlluniau datblygu lleol, weithiau, yw capasiti a chyflymder awdurdodau lleol yn eu llunio. Rydym wedi bod yn gweithio'n agos iawn gydag awdurdodau lleol ledled Cymru i sicrhau bod ganddynt yr arbenigedd i roi cynlluniau datblygu lleol ar waith. Mae'n rhywbeth rydym yn ei arolygu bob amser mewn perthynas â'r capasiti i wneud hynny a'r ffordd y mae gennym gytundebau ag awdurdodau lleol ynglŷn â'r amserlen ar gyfer gwneud hynny.
Yn bersonol, credaf fod lle i wella'r cyswllt rhyngom ac awdurdodau lleol o ran sut y maent yn strwythuro eu cynlluniau datblygu lleol a pha ddarpariaeth y gallwn ei chynnig i'w helpu i gyflymu rhai o'r prosesau hynny, gan y bydd awdurdod lleol nad oes ganddo gynllun datblygu lleol ar waith yn wynebu problemau gwirioneddol wrth reoli ei swyddogaethau rheoli datblygu a gallu gwrthsefyll ceisiadau cynllunio nad ydynt yn rhan o'i gynllun. Felly, nid yw peidio â chael cynllun yn gynllun da—mae'n ddrwg gennyf, mae hynny i'w weld yn gwbl amlwg—ond nid yw'n gynllun da, a chredaf y gallem weithio'n well gyda'n hawdurdodau lleol er mwyn cyflymu'r broses honno.
3. A wnaiff y Gweinidog amlinellu polisi Llywodraeth Cymru ar ad-drefnu llywodraeth leol? OAQ53242
3. Will the Minister outline the Welsh Government's policy on local government reorganisation? OAQ53242
Yes. The First Minister has made it clear we will retain the 22 local authorities we have in Wales. Where voluntary merger proposals come forward, we will act to support them.
Gwnaf. Mae'r Prif Weinidog wedi dweud yn glir y byddwn yn cadw'r 22 awdurdod lleol sydd gennym yng Nghymru. Os bydd cynigion uno gwirfoddol yn cael eu cyflwyno, byddwn yn gweithredu i'w cefnogi.
Thank you for that, Minister. It's well documented that your predecessor had a sometimes challenging relationship with the Welsh Local Government Association and local government in general. In fact, your special adviser is quoted in the news now saying that the previous Minister relied on alternative facts very often on which to base his policy-making decisions. Can you confirm that you will not be relying on alternative facts and that, actually, you will be informing your decisions on what is in the best interest of communities the length and breadth of Wales and that security for local government is one of the key cornerstones for them to be able to deliver the services they are charged with delivering?
Diolch, Weinidog. Mae'n dra hysbys fod gan eich rhagflaenydd berthynas heriol weithiau gyda Chymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru a llywodraeth leol yn gyffredinol. Yn wir, dyfynnir eich cynghorydd arbennig yn y newyddion yn dweud bod y Gweinidog blaenorol yn dibynnu ar ffeithiau amgen yn aml iawn ar gyfer seilio ei benderfyniadau ynghylch llunio polisi. A allwch gadarnhau na fyddwch yn dibynnu ar ffeithiau amgen ac y byddwch yn seilio eich penderfyniadau ar yr hyn sydd er budd gorau cymunedau ledled Cymru a bod sicrwydd i lywodraeth leol yn un o'r prif bethau sy'n eu galluogi i ddarparu'r gwasanaethau y maent yn gyfrifol am eu darparu?
Yes, I'm not in the habit of relying on alternative facts, so I can assure the Member that I won't be taking up the practice any time soon. I'm a long-term fan of local government. Members in the Chamber will know that I spent a very large part of my career in local government. I think they do a good job in constrained circumstances. They require help and assistance, and, sometimes, they could collaborate better, and sometimes we have caused them problems in the way that we've laid collaborations on top of them. I'm very pleased to be working with a working group of local government, looking to see how we can best maximise the combined talent of local government for the best effect for the people of Wales. But, in general, I'm a big fan of local government and I intend to stay that way.
Gallaf, nid yw'n arfer gennyf ddibynnu ar ffeithiau amgen, felly gallaf roi sicrwydd i'r Aelod nad wyf ar unrhyw frys i ddechrau gwneud hynny. Rwy'n gefnogwr hirdymor i lywodraeth leol. Gŵyr Aelodau yn y Siambr fy mod wedi treulio rhan fawr iawn o fy ngyrfa mewn llywodraeth leol. Credaf eu bod yn gwneud gwaith da mewn amgylchiadau cyfyngedig. Mae arnynt angen help a chymorth, ac weithiau, gallent gydweithio'n well, ac weithiau, rydym wedi peri problemau iddynt o ran y ffordd rydym wedi eu gorfodi i gydweithredu. Rwy'n falch iawn fy mod yn gweithio gyda gweithgor o lywodraeth leol, i ystyried sut y gallwn wneud y gorau o dalent gyfunol llywodraeth leol er mwyn sicrhau'r effaith orau ar gyfer pobl Cymru. Ond yn gyffredinol, rwy'n frwd fy nghefnogaeth i lywodraeth leol, ac rwy'n bwriadu parhau i fod.
Clearly, the continued talk of reorganisation breeds uncertainty and a certain paralysis of development. What are you going to do differently to your predecessors in this post to change that?
Yn amlwg, mae'r sôn parhaus am ad-drefnu yn arwain at ansicrwydd ac atal datblygu. Beth y bwriadwch ei wneud yn wahanol i'ch rhagflaenwyr yn y swydd hon er mwyn newid hynny?
As I said, I've already had a very good meeting this morning with the finance sub-committee, talking about the funding formula. I'm meeting with the WLGA on Friday. We have a working group, which is being chaired by Derek Vaughan, looking at the way that we do regional working together, and I'm looking forward to having a good and productive relationship with local authorities across the piece.
Fel y dywedais, rwyf eisoes wedi cael cyfarfod da iawn y bore yma gyda'r is-bwyllgor cyllid, i sôn am y fformiwla ariannu. Byddaf yn cyfarfod â CLlLC ddydd Gwener. Mae gennym weithgor, a gadeirir gan Derek Vaughan, yn edrych ar y ffordd y gwnawn waith rhanbarthol gyda'n gilydd, ac edrychaf ymlaen at gael perthynas dda a chynhyrchiol gydag awdurdodau lleol yn gyffredinol.
[Inaudible.]—with you in local government. Does the Minister accept that council mergers will be extremely costly, taking money out of front-line services, remembering that the only council that failed in Britain was Northamptonshire, with a population of over three times that of Cardiff? Every time people talk about mergers, I think of Betsi Cadwaladr University Local Health Board and Natural Resources Wales.
[Anghlywadwy.]—gyda chi mewn llywodraeth leol. A yw'r Gweinidog yn derbyn y bydd uno cynghorau'n hynod o gostus, ac yn mynd ag arian o'r gwasanaethau rheng flaen, gan gofio mai'r unig gyngor sydd wedi methu ym Mhrydain yw Swydd Northampton, gyda phoblogaeth sydd dros deirgwaith poblogaeth cyngor Caerdydd? Pan fydd pobl yn sôn am uno, rwyf bob amser yn meddwl am Fwrdd Iechyd Lleol Prifysgol Betsi Cadwaladr a Cyfoeth Naturiol Cymru.
I just don't think that one size fits all at all. There are very good examples across Britain and across the world of both large and small local authorities that work very effectively. It's about harnessing local resources for local people and harnessing the power of local democratic decisions in order to do so. So, my own view is that if two local authorities thought they would work better as a single one, I would not be standing in the way of that, and if they think they're better to do regional collaborations and some things individually, I'd be looking to see what we could do to facilitate those working arrangements.
Ni chredaf y gellir cael un ateb sy'n addas i bawb. Ceir enghreifftiau da iawn ledled Prydain ac ar draws y byd o awdurdodau lleol bach a mawr sy'n gweithio'n effeithiol iawn. Mae a wnelo hyn â harneisio adnoddau lleol i bobl leol a harneisio pŵer penderfyniadau democrataidd lleol er mwyn gwneud hynny. Felly, yn fy marn i, os byddai dau awdurdod lleol o'r farn y byddent yn gweithio'n well fel un awdurdod, ni fuaswn yn ceisio atal hynny, ac os ydynt o'r farn y byddai'n well ganddynt gydweithredu'n rhanbarthol a gwneud rhai pethau'n unigol, buaswn yn edrych i weld beth y gallem ei wneud i hwyluso trefniadau gwaith o'r fath.
Minister, do you accept that Wales does not need 22 separate local authorities and that previous Ministers' attempts to solve the issue without actually reorganising local government has led to massive waste and bureaucracy?
On Monday, I met with a group of headteachers from my region to discuss the funding crisis in education, and one of their primary concerns was with the extra tier of governance added by the regional consortia and the waste it introduced. Minister, do you agree with the Williams commission that Wales would be better served by fewer, larger councils, doing away with the need for regional consortia?
Weinidog, a ydych yn derbyn nad oes angen 22 awdurdod lleol ar wahân ar Gymru a bod ymdrechion Gweinidogion blaenorol i ddatrys y broblem heb ad-drefnu llywodraeth leol wedi arwain at wastraff sylweddol a biwrocratiaeth?
Ddydd Llun, cyfarfûm â grŵp o benaethiaid o fy rhanbarth i drafod yr argyfwng ariannu mewn addysg, ac roedd un o'u prif bryderon yn ymwneud â'r haen ychwanegol o lywodraethu a ychwanegir gan y consortia rhanbarthol a'r gwastraff a gyflwynwyd yn sgil hynny. Weinidog, a ydych yn cytuno gyda chomisiwn Williams y byddai Cymru'n cael ei gwasanaethu'n well gan nifer llai o gynghorau mwy o faint, gan gael gwared ar yr angen am gonsortia rhanbarthol?
No, I don’t, and I think I said very clearly that I didn’t. I think no one size fits all at all. What we need to do is work closely with local government to agree a shared vision for the future in which we make sure that the expertise available to it is deployed to the best effect for the people of Wales. Sometimes, that expertise will sit in one authority and it needs to be shared with another. At other times, it might be spread out. As I say, no one size fits all. What we need to do is get a shared vision together on the table, agree the working arrangements and stick to them. What isn’t helpful is where we do have regional arrangements and people seek to undermine them constantly, and so they can't be relied upon. Reliability and certainty, as Dai Lloyd pointed out, is one of the absolute maxims of good local administration, and I plan to make sure that we can go forward together with local government to ensure that we have that.
Na, nid wyf yn cytuno, a chredaf fy mod wedi dweud yn glir iawn nad wyf yn cytuno. Ni chredaf fod yna un ateb sy'n addas i bawb o gwbl. Yr hyn y mae angen inni ei wneud yw gweithio'n agos gyda llywodraeth leol i gytuno ar weledigaeth a rennir ar gyfer y dyfodol lle rydym yn sicrhau bod yr arbenigedd sydd ar gael yn cael ei ddefnyddio i ddarparu'r effaith orau ar gyfer pobl Cymru. Weithiau, bydd yr arbenigedd hwnnw i'w gael mewn un awdurdod a bydd angen ei rannu ag un arall. Ar adegau eraill, efallai y bydd yn cael ei ledaenu. Fel y dywedaf, nid oes un ateb sy'n addas i bawb. Yr hyn y mae angen inni ei wneud yw llunio gweledigaeth a rennir rhyngom, cytuno ar y trefniadau gweithio a glynu atynt. Yr hyn nad yw'n ddefnyddiol yw pan fo gennym drefniadau rhanbarthol a bod pobl yn ceisio eu tanseilio drwy'r amser, ac felly ni ellir dibynnu arnynt. Dibynadwyedd a sicrwydd, fel y nododd Dai Lloyd, yw'r pethau sy'n hollbwysig ar gyfer gweinyddu lleol da, ac rwy'n bwriadu sicrhau y gallwn fwrw ymlaen ar y cyd â llywodraeth leol i sicrhau bod gennym hynny.
4. A wnaiff y Gweinidog ddatganiad am sut y gellir gwella'r broses gynllunio er mwyn cynnal gwell asesiad o'r effaith gronnol a gaiff ceisiadau datblygu aml-breswyl yn yr un ardal? OAQ53237
4. Will the Minister make a statement on how the planning process can be improved to better assess the cumulative impact of multiple residential development applications in the same locality? OAQ53237
Yes, indeed. Up-to-date local development plans provide the local context to assess the cumulative impact of multiple residential development applications in the same locality. LDPs should ensure sufficient land is available in appropriate and sustainable locations to meet the projected housing need identified by the local planning authority.
Gwnaf, yn wir. Mae cynlluniau datblygu lleol cyfredol yn darparu'r cyd-destun lleol er mwyn asesu effaith gronnol ceisiadau datblygu preswyl lluosog yn yr un ardal. Dylai cynlluniau datblygu lleol sicrhau bod digon o dir ar gael mewn lleoliadau priodol a chynaliadwy i ddiwallu'r angen rhagamcanol am dai a nodwyd gan yr awdurdod cynllunio lleol.
Thank you for that answer, Minister, and can I also welcome the shift in Government policy towards a more spatial approach to planning? But, in my constituency, in Llantwit Fardre, we have three significant residential planning applications within a 700m radius. They're all at different stages in the planning process, and I’m not asking you to comment on those—the ones at Ystrad Barwig, Cwm Isaf farm, and Tynant common—but what we know is that the highway infrastructure is under considerable strain, and local GPs tell me that they are struggling to maintain a good service to existing patients. People need houses, but do you agree with me that the planning process must place a greater emphasis on the cumulative impact of adjacent development on people’s well-being and access to key services?
Diolch am eich ateb, Weinidog, ac a gaf fi hefyd groesawu'r newid ym mholisi'r Llywodraeth tuag at ddull mwy gofodol o gynllunio? Ond yn fy etholaeth i, yn Llanilltud Faerdref, mae gennym dri chais cynllunio preswyl sylweddol o fewn radiws o 700m. Mae pob un ar wahanol gamau yn y broses gynllunio, ac nid wyf yn gofyn ichi wneud sylwadau arnynt—y rhai yn Ystrad Barwig, fferm Cwm Isaf a chomin Tynant—ond yr hyn a wyddom yw bod y seilwaith priffyrdd o dan bwysau sylweddol, a dywed meddygon teulu lleol wrthyf eu bod yn ei chael hi'n anodd cynnal gwasanaeth da i gleifion cyfredol. Mae angen tai ar bobl, ond a ydych yn cytuno â mi fod yn rhaid i'r broses gynllunio roi mwy o bwyslais ar effaith gronnol datblygiadau cyfagos ar les pobl a mynediad at wasanaethau allweddol?
Yes. A good local development plan should plan not only for its housing need, but for the infrastructure needs associated with the housing need. Clearly, that is a range of services, you know, from prosaic highway infrastructure, to digital connectivity, to access to GPs and schools, local bus services, sustainable transport, and so on. It’s a very complex picture. Each place should be planning to have its place properly served by its plan, and I do think councils should be very ambitious and innovative in setting out their requirements of developers through the various agreements they make through the planning process—section 106s, for one example, or the Highways Act agreements that they make, and so on—to maximise the benefit to the local population of particular developments and to ensure that they don’t concentrate everything in one area to the detriment of the other services. Indeed, that’s the purpose of the LDP—to go through an inquiry stage in which local people get to have their say in that way. And I’m very pleased that 'Planning Policy Wales' has focused on place making and has put that at the heart of our national planning policy, because I think that is in line with the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 and the way that we want to take Wales forward into the future.
Ydw. Dylai cynllun datblygu lleol da gynllunio nid yn unig ar gyfer ei angen am dai, ond ar gyfer yr anghenion seilwaith sy'n gysylltiedig â'r angen am dai. Yn amlwg, golyga hynny amrywiaeth o wasanaethau, fel y gwyddoch, o seilwaith priffyrdd arferol, i gysylltedd digidol, i fynediad at feddygon teulu ac ysgolion, gwasanaethau bws lleol, trafnidiaeth gynaliadwy, ac ati. Mae'n ddarlun cymhleth iawn. Dylai pob lle fod yn cynllunio i sicrhau bod eu lle wedi'i wasanaethu'n briodol gan ei gynllun, a chredaf y dylai cynghorau fod yn uchelgeisiol iawn ac yn arloesol wrth bennu eu gofynion ar gyfer y datblygwyr drwy'r cytundebau amrywiol a wnânt drwy'r broses gynllunio—cytundebau adran 106, er enghraifft, neu'r cytundebau Deddf Priffyrdd, ac ati—er mwyn sicrhau'r budd mwyaf posibl i'r boblogaeth leol yn sgil datblygiadau penodol ac i sicrhau nad ydynt yn crynhoi popeth mewn un ardal ar draul gwasanaethau eraill. Yn wir, dyna ddiben y cynllun datblygu lleol—mynd drwy gam ymchwiliad lle y caiff y bobl leol ddweud eu dweud yn y ffordd honno. Ac rwy'n falch iawn fod 'Polisi Cynllunio Cymru' wedi canolbwyntio ar greu lleoedd ac wedi sicrhau bod hynny wrth wraidd ein polisi cynllunio cenedlaethol, gan y credaf fod hynny'n cyd-fynd â Deddf Llesiant Cenedlaethau’r Dyfodol (Cymru) 2015 a'r ffordd rydym am symud Cymru ymlaen i'r dyfodol.
I've got a similar situation, Minister, in my own constituency, in the town of Abergele, where there are many hundreds of new homes planned for that area as part of the local development plan. And Abergele, as the Minister may be aware, is just a short distance from Bodelwyddan, which is in the neighbouring local authority, where there are a couple of thousand new homes planned. So, within that small area, around 3,000 new homes are proposed, and yet we already have a situation where our infrastructure is creaking at the seams, the traffic is often gridlocked in Abergele, the schools are already oversubscribed—the primary schools—and, indeed, we have problems with our health service and people being able to access GPs as well.
Now, I heard very carefully what you have said about the responsibilities that local authorities have, but what do you do as a Welsh Government when there are irresponsible decisions being taken by local authorities that are having scant regard, sometimes, for the transport and other infrastructure needs in their communities and potentially exacerbating them by giving permission to significant housing developments? Furthermore, what guidance are you issuing to local authorities in order that they have regard to local development plans in neighbouring local authority areas, because Bodelwyddan, of course, is in Denbighshire, and Abergele is in Conwy?
Mae gennyf sefyllfa debyg, Weinidog, yn fy etholaeth i, yn nhref Abergele, lle mae cannoedd ar gannoedd o gartrefi newydd wedi'u cynllunio ar gyfer yr ardal honno fel rhan o'r cynllun datblygu lleol. Ac mae Abergele, fel y gŵyr y Gweinidog o bosibl, nid nepell o Fodelwyddan, sydd yn yr awdurdod lleol cyfagos, lle y cynlluniwyd cwpl o filoedd o gartrefi newydd. Felly, o fewn yr ardal fach honno, mae oddeutu 3,000 o gartrefi newydd wedi'u hargymell, ac eto, rydym eisoes mewn sefyllfa lle mae ein seilwaith yn gwegian, ceir tagfeydd traffig yn aml yn Abergele, mae'r ysgolion eisoes yn orlawn—yr ysgolion cynradd—ac yn wir, mae gennym broblemau gyda'n gwasanaeth iechyd a gallu pobl i gael mynediad at feddygon teulu hefyd.
Nawr, rwyf wedi gwrando'n ofalus iawn ar yr hyn a ddywedoch ynglŷn â'r cyfrifoldebau sydd gan awdurdodau lleol, ond beth rydych yn ei wneud fel Llywodraeth Cymru pan fo awdurdodau lleol yn gwneud penderfyniadau anghyfrifol heb boeni dim, weithiau, am anghenion trafnidiaeth ac anghenion seilwaith eraill yn eu cymunedau, ac yn eu gwaethygu o bosibl drwy roi caniatâd i ddatblygiadau tai sylweddol? Yn ychwanegol at hynny, pa ganllawiau rydych yn eu rhoi i awdurdodau lleol er mwyn sicrhau eu bod yn ystyried cynlluniau datblygu lleol mewn ardaloedd awdurdod lleol cyfagos, oherwydd wrth gwrs, mae Bodelwyddan yn sir Ddinbych, ac Abergele yng Nghonwy?
I want to make it plain immediately that I'm not going to comment on any specifics, and my remarks are not directed to the particular development that the Member has raised—so, in general terms. We have provisions in the Planning (Wales) Act 2015 to enable local planning authorities to bring forward strategic development plans and therefore to work more regionally. We are looking to have local authorities do that for the exact reason that the Member pointed out, so that spatial planning across local authority boundaries can be better.
We're working to prepare our first national development framework to provide a national context within which that can sit, and I had a useful meeting this morning with the officials supporting the infrastructure commission for Wales around how they can fit into some of that national planning.
I am hoping that we will be able to put in place the first strategic development plan down in south-east Wales this spring, shortly, and I'm looking to have that system spread out across Wales so that we can take cross-border issues properly into consideration.
But in the local development plan and in developing the local development plan, of course it is a proper consideration to consider where developments are taking place along the borders and elsewhere, and to map out provision for other services and so on, in order to ensure that people who are at the heart of the local democratic process that the LDP is put in place by are at the very heart of that decision-making process. If the process isn't about the people who are going to live in it, what is it about? Plans should keep in mind, at all times, that the people are at the heart of the process.
Hoffwn ddweud yn glir ar unwaith na fyddaf yn rhoi sylwadau ar unrhyw achosion penodol, ac nid yw fy sylwadau yn cyfeirio at y datblygiad penodol a grybwyllwyd gan yr Aelod—felly, rwy'n siarad yn gyffredinol. Mae gennym ddarpariaethau drwy Ddeddf Cynllunio (Cymru) 2015 i alluogi awdurdodau cynllunio lleol i gyflwyno cynlluniau datblygu strategol, ac felly i weithio'n fwy rhanbarthol. Rydym yn bwriadu sicrhau bod awdurdodau lleol yn gwneud hynny am yr union reswm a nodwyd gan yr Aelod, er mwyn gwella cynllunio gofodol ar draws ffiniau awdurdodau lleol.
Rydym yn gweithio i baratoi ein fframwaith datblygu cenedlaethol cyntaf i ddarparu cyd-destun cenedlaethol ar gyfer hynny, a chefais gyfarfod defnyddiol y bore yma gyda'r swyddogion sy'n cefnogi comisiwn seilwaith Cymru ynglŷn â sut y gallant gymryd rhan mewn peth o'r cynllunio cenedlaethol hwnnw.
Rwy'n gobeithio y gallwn roi'r cynllun datblygu strategol cyntaf ar waith i lawr yn ne-ddwyrain Cymru y gwanwyn hwn, cyn bo hir, ac rwy'n gobeithio sicrhau bod y system honno wedi'i lledaenu ledled Cymru fel y gallwn ystyried materion trawsffiniol yn briodol.
Ond yn y cynllun datblygu lleol ac wrth ddatblygu'r cynllun datblygu lleol, wrth gwrs, mae'n briodol ystyried lle mae datblygiadau'n mynd rhagddynt ar hyd y ffiniau ac mewn mannau eraill, yn ogystal â mapio'r ddarpariaeth ar gyfer gwasanaethau eraill ac ati, er mwyn sicrhau bod y bobl sydd wrth wraidd y broses ddemocrataidd leol ac sy'n rhoi'r cynllun datblygu lleol ar waith yn ganolog yn y broses honno o wneud penderfyniadau. Os nad yw'r broses yn ymwneud â'r bobl a fydd yn byw gyda hi, beth yw ei phwrpas? Dylai'r cynlluniau gadw mewn cof, ar bob adeg, mai pobl sydd wrth wraidd y broses.
But there's an even more fundamental issue here, of course: what is the local housing need? Your Government has actually told local authorities now that your population projections are outdated, and they were the basis, of course, for the local development plans that people are concerned about, and we've seen the allocation of additional land for housing and a need that, clearly, simply just doesn't exist. So, will you accept that that was wrong? And will you also now, therefore, instruct your officials to allow councils to de-allocate greenfield sites in order to protect our environment and communities?
Ond mae problem fwy sylfaenol byth yma, wrth gwrs: beth yw'r angen lleol am dai? Mae eich Llywodraeth wedi dweud wrth awdurdodau lleol yn awr fod eich amcanestyniadau ar gyfer y boblogaeth wedi dyddio, a dyna oedd yn sail, wrth gwrs, i'r cynlluniau datblygu lleol y mae pobl yn pryderu amdanynt, ac rydym wedi gweld tir ychwanegol yn cael ei ddyrannu ar gyfer tai ac angen nad yw'n bodoli, yn amlwg. Felly, a wnewch chi dderbyn bod hynny'n anghywir? Ac a wnewch chi hefyd, felly, gyfarwyddo eich swyddogion i ganiatáu i gynghorau ddad-ddyrannu safleoedd tir glas er mwyn diogelu ein hamgylchedd a'n cymunedau?
I don't have a picture of Wales in my head around the different population projections, so I can't talk in specifics, but I'm very keen to make sure that we have the right projections in place, and that we actually respond to the need in the right places.
I'm also actually very keen to ensure that developments are the right size and fitted for the area they serve. So, what we want to do is encourage, as I said, small housing developers from across Wales to bring forward small sites that suit local need and not have to have large allocations. And that's not to criticise any council; as I say, I'm speaking in generalities. But I'm hoping to look again at what we are projecting, both in terms of the local government formula overall and in terms of projected need, in order to see where we can go.
Nid oes gennyf ddarlun o Gymru yn fy meddwl mewn perthynas â'r amcanestyniadau poblogaeth gwahanol, felly ni allaf sôn am achosion penodol, ond rwy'n awyddus iawn i sicrhau bod yr amcanestyniadau cywir ar waith gennym, a'n bod yn ymateb i'r angen yn y mannau cywir.
Rwyf hefyd yn awyddus iawn i sicrhau bod maint y datblygiadau'n gywir ac yn gymesur â'r ardal y maent yn ei gwasanaethu. Felly, yr hyn rydym am ei wneud, fel y dywedais, yw annog datblygwyr bach eu maint ledled Cymru i ddarparu safleoedd bach sy'n addas i'r angen lleol heb orfod cael dyraniadau mawr. Ac nid yw hynny'n feirniadaeth o unrhyw gyngor; fel y dywedaf, rwy'n siarad yn gyffredinol. Ond rwy'n gobeithio ailedrych ar ein hamcanestyniadau, o ran y fformiwla ar gyfer llywodraeth leol yn gyffredinol ac o ran angen amcanestynedig, er mwyn gweld i ble y gallwn fynd.
5. Pa drafodaethau y mae'r Gweinidog wedi'u cael gyda'r Gweinidog Cyllid ynghylch cynaliadwyedd y fformiwla ariannu llywodraeth leol? OAQ53240
5. What discussions has the Minister had with the Minister for Finance about the sustainability of the local government funding formula? OAQ53240
Well, indeed, the finance Minister and I both met with local government at this morning’s finance sub-group meeting to discuss finance matters, the main topic of which was the sustainability of the local government funding formula. So, we're both fresh from that very meeting.
Wel, yn wir, cyfarfu'r Gweinidog Cyllid a minnau â llywodraeth leol yng nghyfarfod yr is-grŵp cyllid y bore yma i drafod materion cyllid, a chynaliadwyedd y fformiwla ariannu llywodraeth leol oedd y prif bwnc. Felly, mae'r ddau ohonom newydd fod yn y cyfarfod hwnnw.
I think there must be an echo in this Chamber—I know that you discussed this fully with my colleague Mark Isherwood earlier. This was a question that I and my colleague Janet Finch-Saunders regularly posed to your predecessor, Alun Davies, when he was in the local government role, and I'm pleased that we've set the ball rolling again today on this important issue. Now, I understand that there is a measure of disagreement here and that the Welsh Government believes that the funding formula in its current form can continue. So, can I just ask you, in a spirt of openness, that you do continue those discussions with the finance Minister and, indeed, local government? And although I know, each year, the WLGA agree to the funding formula in some form or other, I do think there is scope within the formula to tinker with it, if you will, and try and make sure that local authorities do get a slightly better deal. I'm thinking particularly about those authorities in rural areas that cover a large rural area and sometimes feel that they're not getting quite that level of support that would help them deliver services in those large rural areas.
Mae'n rhaid fod adlais yn y Siambr hon—gwn eich bod wedi trafod hyn yn drylwyr gyda fy nghyd-Aelod Mark Isherwood yn gynharach. Roedd hwn yn gwestiwn a ofynnwyd yn rheolaidd gennyf fi a'm cyd-Aelod Janet Finch-Saunders i'ch rhagflaenydd, Alun Davies, pan oedd yn y rôl llywodraeth leol, ac rwy'n falch ein bod wedi ailgychwyn pethau heddiw ar y mater pwysig hwn. Nawr, deallaf fod peth anghytuno yma, a bod Llywodraeth Cymru yn credu y gall y fformiwla ariannu barhau ar ei ffurf bresennol. Felly, a gaf fi ofyn mewn ysbryd o onestrwydd i chi barhau â'r trafodaethau hynny gyda'r Gweinidog Cyllid, ac yn wir, gyda llywodraeth leol? Ac er y gwn, bob blwyddyn, fod CLlLC yn cytuno i'r fformiwla ariannu ar ryw ffurf neu'i gilydd, credaf fod lle o fewn y fformiwla i wneud mân addasiadau, os mynnwch, a cheisio sicrhau bod awdurdodau lleol yn cael bargen ychydig yn well. Rwy'n meddwl yn benodol am yr awdurdodau hynny mewn ardaloedd gwledig sy'n gyfrifol am ardal wledig fawr ac sydd weithiau'n teimlo nad ydynt yn cael y lefel o gymorth a fyddai'n eu helpu i ddarparu gwasanaethau yn yr ardaloedd gwledig mawr hynny.
We had a full discussion about the way that the formula works and any issues that anyone in the room had with them, and I invited suggestions from the local government leaders in the room and, indeed, from the wider local government community as to any suggested changes to the formula that might be something that we could all support. So, I'm very open to that. I have to say, nothing has come forward yet that significantly changes the formula. As you know, we put a funding floor in place in order to protect councils that are particularly affected by sudden changes in the way that the distribution works—so, by population change, for example, or by big differences in free-school-meals provision, or whatever it is. But we had a very good discussion this morning, and, as I said in earlier remarks, I'm not aware of what the disagreement is. There certainly wasn't any disagreement in the room this morning.
Cawsom drafodaeth lawn ynglŷn â'r ffordd y mae'r fformiwla'n gweithio ac unrhyw broblemau a oedd gan unrhyw un yn yr ystafell gyda hi, a gofynnais am awgrymiadau gan yr arweinwyr llywodraeth leol yn yr ystafell, ac yn wir, gan y gymuned lywodraeth leol ehangach ynglŷn ag unrhyw newidiadau i'r fformiwla a allai fod yn rhywbeth y gallai pob un ohonom ei gefnogi. Felly, rwy'n agored iawn i hynny. Mae'n rhaid imi ddweud nad oes unrhyw beth wedi'i gyflwyno eto sy'n newid y fformiwla yn sylweddol. Fel y gwyddoch, rhoesom gyllid gwaelodol ar waith er mwyn diogelu cynghorau yr effeithir arnynt yn arbennig gan newidiadau sydyn yn y ffordd y mae'r dosbarthu'n gweithio—felly, gan newid yn y boblogaeth, er enghraifft, neu wahaniaethau mawr o ran darpariaeth prydau ysgol am ddim, ac yn y blaen. Ond cawsom drafodaeth dda iawn y bore yma, ac fel y dywedais mewn sylwadau cynharach, nid wyf yn ymwybodol o beth yw'r anghytundeb. Yn sicr, ni chafwyd unrhyw anghytuno yn yr ystafell y bore yma.
Can I start by thanking my good friend from across the Chamber, Nick Ramsay, for tabling this very important question? And I'm pleased to hear that the Minister has sat down this morning with the finance Minister to discuss this very important issue, which is raised with me on almost every occasion when I meet with members of local government in north Wales. This, of course, is a vital part of how local councils get their resources to fund the very important local services that, every day, people deserve, and of course we are all suffering at the moment from the UK austerity set by the Tory Government. Now, remembering that Welsh Government does not set the formula, but it is set on expert advice and agreed by local government, would the Minister welcome the initiation of research work by Members of the Assembly from north Wales into the effectiveness and fairness of the current formula?
A gaf fi ddechrau drwy ddiolch i fy nghyfaill ar draws y Siambr, Nick Ramsay, am gyflwyno'r cwestiwn pwysig hwn? Ac rwy'n falch o glywed bod y Gweinidog wedi eistedd y bore yma gyda'r Gweinidog Cyllid i drafod y mater pwysig hwn, sy'n cael ei ddwyn i fy sylw ar bob achlysur bron pan fyddaf yn cyfarfod ag aelodau o lywodraeth leol yng ngogledd Cymru. Mae hon, wrth gwrs, yn rhan hanfodol o'r ffordd y bydd cynghorau lleol yn cael eu hadnoddau i ariannu'r gwasanaethau lleol pwysig y mae pobl yn eu haeddu'n ddyddiol, ac wrth gwrs mae pawb ohonom yn dioddef ar hyn o bryd yn sgil polisi cyni'r DU a osodwyd gan y Llywodraeth Dorïaidd. Nawr, gan gofio nad Llywodraeth Cymru sy'n gosod y fformiwla, ond yn hytrach ei bod yn cael ei gosod ar sail cyngor arbenigol a'i chytuno â llywodraeth leol, a fyddai'r Gweinidog yn hoffi gweld Aelodau o'r Cynulliad o ogledd Cymru yn mynd ati i wneud gwaith ymchwil ar effeithiolrwydd a thegwch y fformiwla bresennol?
Yes. As I said, I'm very open to any suggestion to change the current funding formula that can be agreed through the local government group. It's very much something that we agree together with local government. We very much wanted to be something that the whole of local government is able to buy into and that the Welsh Government also buys into. So, I absolutely welcome any suggestions or any research that shows us any different way of doing it.
Buaswn. Fel y dywedais, rwy'n agored iawn i unrhyw awgrym i newid y fformiwla ariannu bresennol y gellir ei gytuno drwy'r grŵp llywodraeth leol. Mae'n bendant yn rhywbeth rydym yn dod i gytundeb â llywodraeth leol yn ei gylch. Roeddem yn awyddus iawn i fod yn rhywbeth y mae llywodraeth leol yn ei chyfanrwydd yn gallu ei gefnogi a rhywbeth y gall Llywodraeth Cymru ei gefnogi hefyd. Felly, rwy'n bendant yn croesawu unrhyw awgrymiadau neu unrhyw ymchwil sy'n dangos ffordd wahanol o'i wneud.
6. Pa fesurau y bydd y Gweinidog yn eu cyflwyno i gynyddu'r amrywiaeth o gynghorwyr lleol? OAQ53228
6. What measures will the Minister introduce to increase the diversity of local councillors? OAQ53228
The forthcoming local government and elections Bill will introduce several measures to further encourage diversity, such as enabling job sharing by executive members.
Bydd y Bil llywodraeth leol ac etholiadau sydd ar y ffordd yn cyflwyno nifer o fesurau i hyrwyddo amrywiaeth, megis galluogi aelodau gweithredol i rannu swyddi.
Thank you very much, Minister. People with disabilities are likely to face greater costs when seeking elected office due to their disabilities. Last month, the UK Government launched an interim fund to help with disability-related expenses to encourage and support people to stand in elections. The EnAble fund for elected office will run until 2020 and will cater for candidates for the local and police commissioner elections in England. What consideration has the Minister given to introducing a similar scheme in Wales to empower more people with disabilities to stand for election to represent their communities in Wales, please?
Diolch yn fawr iawn, Weinidog. Mae pobl ag anableddau yn debygol o wynebu mwy o gostau wrth iddynt geisio am swyddi etholedig oherwydd eu hanableddau. Y mis diwethaf, lansiodd Llywodraeth y DU gronfa dros dro i helpu gyda'r costau sy'n gysylltiedig ag anabledd er mwyn annog a chynorthwyo pobl i sefyll mewn etholiadau. Bydd y gronfa EnAble ar gyfer swyddi etholedig yn rhedeg tan 2020 a bydd yn darparu ar gyfer ymgeiswyr mewn etholiadau lleol ac etholiadau comisiynwyr yr heddlu yn Lloegr. Pa ystyriaeth a roddodd y Gweinidog i gyflwyno cynllun tebyg yng Nghymru er mwyn galluogi rhagor o bobl ag anableddau i sefyll etholiadau ar gyfer cynrychioli eu cymunedau yng Nghymru, os gwelwch yn dda?
We are about to introduce into the Assembly the local government and elections Bill, and the Llywydd is very interested, I know, in the one for the Assembly. We'd be very happy to have discussions about any scheme that enables any broader diversity of Members to come forward, from wherever that comes, and as part of the discussions as we take the Bill through its committee stages, I'd be more than happy to engage with the Member about any other provisions that he thinks might do just that.
Rydym ar fin cyflwyno'r Bil llywodraeth leol ac etholiadau i'r Cynulliad, ac mae gan y Llywydd ddiddordeb mawr, rwy'n gwybod, yn yr un ar gyfer y Cynulliad. Byddem yn hapus iawn i gael trafodaethau ynglŷn ag unrhyw gynllun sy'n galluogi amrywiaeth ehangach o Aelodau i gamu ymlaen, o ble bynnag y daw cynllun o'r fath, ac fel rhan o'r trafodaethau wrth i ni dywys y Bil drwy ei gyfnodau pwyllgor, buaswn yn fwy na bodlon ymgysylltu â'r Aelod ynghylch unrhyw ddarpariaethau eraill a allai wneud hynny yn ei farn ef.
7. Pa asesiad mae'r Gweinidog wedi ei wneud er mwyn sicrhau bod polisïau gosod tai cymdeithasol awdurdodau lleol a phartneriaethau tai ar draws Cymru yn addas i bwrpas? OAQ53259
7. What assessment has the Minister made to ensure that the social housing letting policies of local government and housing partnerships across Wales are fit for purpose? OAQ53259
In a world where demand for social housing very much outstrips supply, it's essential that lettings policies reflect a fair and strategic approach to meeting housing needs. Local housing partnerships have a responsibility to make best use of available social housing and provide applicants with the widest choice of accommodation.
Mewn byd lle mae'r galw am dai cymdeithasol yn llawer uwch na'r cyflenwad, mae'n hanfodol fod polisïau gosod tai yn adlewyrchu dull teg a strategol o ddiwallu anghenion tai. Mae gan bartneriaethau tai lleol gyfrifoldeb i wneud y defnydd gorau o'r tai cymdeithasol sydd ar gael a darparu'r dewis ehangaf o lety i'r rhai sy'n ei geisio.
Mae’r broses o gofrestru ar gyfer tŷ cymdeithasol yn gallu bod yn gymhleth, ac unwaith mae’r unigolion ar y rhestr, yn aml mae’r system sy'n cael ei defnyddio i benderfynu pwy sydd yn cael pa dŷ yn gallu arwain at ganlyniadau sydd yn annheg. Mae Cyngor Gwynedd newydd gychwyn ymgynghoriad ac yn ystyried newid o system bwyntiau i system fandio, a fydd yn rhoi ystyriaeth i angen, ond hefyd ystyriaeth i gysylltiadau lleol y darpar denantiaid. Ydych chi’n credu bod angen creu systemau dynodi tai cymdeithasol sydd yn fwy addas i bwrpas, a hynny ar draws Cymru?
The process of registering for social housing can be complex, and once an individual is on the list, then, very often, the system that is used to decide who is allocated which house can lead to outcomes that are unfair. Gwynedd Council has just started a consultation and is considering a change from a points system to a banding system, which will give consideration to need, but also to local connections and links for prospective tenants. Do you believe that we need to create social housing systems that are more fit for purpose across Wales?
Yes, I'm very interested in the Gwynedd banding system. I believe they're out for a three-month consultation and trial and that the decision's in April. We'll be looking very closely to see how that works. Clearly, we want people in priority need to be housed, but Gwynedd's system is about enabling local people to be housed locally. So, I'm very interested in seeing where we can get the right balance between encouraging local people to stay local and being sure that people in priority need get their needs met. Very often, people have a very real need to be in the community that they feel part of. So, it's about the balance. I'd be very interested in how Gwynedd works that out and to see what we can do around looking at that across Wales.
Mae gennyf ddiddordeb mawr yn system bandio Gwynedd. Rwy'n credu eu bod wrthi'n ymgynghori ac yn treialu a bod penderfyniad i'w wneud ym mis Ebrill. Byddwn yn edrych yn ofalus iawn i weld sut y mae'n gweithio. Yn amlwg, rydym eisiau gweld pobl sydd ag angen blaenoriaethol yn cael llety, ond mae a wnelo system Gwynedd â galluogi pobl leol i gael llety'n lleol. Felly, mae gennyf ddiddordeb mawr mewn gweld ble y gallwn gael y cydbwysedd cywir rhwng annog pobl leol i aros yn lleol a sicrhau bod anghenion blaenoriaethol pobl yn cael eu diwallu. Yn aml iawn, mae gan bobl angen go iawn i fod yn y gymuned y maent yn teimlo'n rhan ohoni. Felly, mae'n ymwneud â'r cydbwysedd. Rwy'n awyddus iawn i weld sut y mae Gwynedd yn datrys hynny a gweld beth y gallwn ei wneud o ran edrych ar hynny ar draws Cymru.
8. Pa drafodaethau y mae'r Gweinidog wedi'u cael gyda Chyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Castell-nedd Port Talbot ynghylch y setliad ariannol ar gyfer llywodraeth Leol? OAQ53265
8. What discussions has the Minister had with Neath Port Talbot County Borough Council regarding the financial settlement for local government? OAQ53265
None yet. I haven't had any specific meetings with Neath Port Talbot council. I'm embarking on the usual, as I understand it, ministerial tour of Wales when you get put into this portfolio. So, over the course of the next few months, I will be having individual meetings with every local authority in Wales, and I'm attending the meeting of the WLGA on Friday, where I'll be able to speak with a group of local authority leaders. I've of course met the leadership of Neath Port Talbot council on a number of occasions, but not yet in this portfolio.
Nid wyf wedi cael unrhyw drafodaeth eto. Nid wyf wedi cael unrhyw gyfarfodydd penodol gyda chyngor Castell-nedd Port Talbot. Rwy'n dechrau ar y daith weinidogol o Gymru sy'n arferol, yn ôl yr hyn a ddeallaf, pan fyddwch yn cael eich rhoi yn y portffolio hwn. Felly, dros yr ychydig fisoedd nesaf, byddaf yn cael cyfarfodydd unigol â phob awdurdod lleol yng Nghymru, ac rwy'n mynychu cyfarfod o CLlLC ddydd Gwener, lle byddaf yn gallu siarad â grŵp o arweinwyr awdurdodau lleol. Wrth gwrs, rwyf wedi cyfarfod ag arweinwyr cyngor Castell-nedd Port Talbot ar nifer o achlysuron, ond nid yn y portffolio hwn hyd yma.
I look forward to when you do meet them and raise the issues, and look to support them as much as possible, because NPT council clearly is, like every other council in Wales, facing challenging times because of the austerity ideology that is being driven through by Westminster. But in doing so, they're obviously looking very carefully at how they manage their bank balance and their funding, particularly the budgets.
Minister, also, on top of the revenue support grant, we see grants being allocated to local authorities. Now, when I met with the local authority before Christmas, in the area at the time of the budget, we were being told that, in fact, some of those grants were way out of time being paid; they were some six months, nine months delayed in payment. That was causing difficulties for local authorities in actually delivering services. Will you ensure that any grants that are allocated—and I know some are being put into the RSG, and that's been welcomed—are paid on time so that the authorities can actually deliver and ensure they're not being caught for finances?
Edrychaf ymlaen at yr adeg y byddwch yn eu cyfarfod ac yn codi'r materion, ac yn ceisio eu cynorthwyo cymaint â phosibl, oherwydd mae'n amlwg fod cyngor Castell Nedd Port Talbot fel pob cyngor arall yng Nghymru, yn wynebu cyfnod heriol oherwydd ideoleg cyni a gaiff ei llywio gan San Steffan. Ond wrth wneud hynny, maent yn amlwg yn edrych yn ofalus iawn ar sut y maent yn rheoli eu mantolen yn y banc a'u cyllid, yn enwedig y cyllidebau.
Weinidog, hefyd, ar ben y grant cynnal refeniw, gwelwn grantiau'n cael eu dyrannu i awdurdodau lleol. Nawr, pan gyfarfûm â'r awdurdod lleol cyn y Nadolig, yn yr ardal ar adeg y gyllideb, dywedwyd wrthym, mewn gwirionedd, fod rhai o'r grantiau hynny ymhell o gael eu talu ar amser; roedd oddeutu chwe mis, naw mis o oedi cyn eu talu. Roedd hynny'n achosi anawsterau i awdurdodau lleol o ran darparu gwasanaethau. A wnewch chi sicrhau bod unrhyw grantiau a ddyrennir—a gwn fod rhai'n cael eu rhoi i mewn i'r grant cynnal refeniw, ac mae hynny wedi'i groesawu—yn cael eu talu ar amser fel y gall yr awdurdodau ddarparu a sicrhau nad ydynt yn cael eu dal am gyllid?
Well, of course we always aim to pay grants in accordance with grant conditions. If the Member wants to bring any specific instances forward, I'm happy to look at that. I will be looking to work across the Government with ministerial colleagues who have big-spending local government portfolios—they're all really obvious: the health and social services and education colleagues and so on are big spending portfolios in terms of local government—to make sure that we present as clear and open a picture to local government as is possible, given the difficulties that they are having in terms of the austerity agenda. It's obvious that they need to be able to plan their expenditure as ably as is possible for us to be able to make them do.
Wel, wrth gwrs ein nod bob amser yw talu grantiau'n unol ag amodau'r grant. Os dymuna'r Aelod ddwyn unrhyw enghreifftiau penodol i sylw, rwy'n hapus i edrych ar hynny. Byddaf yn ceisio gweithio ar draws y Llywodraeth gyda chyd-Weinidogion sydd â phortffolios llywodraeth leol â gwariant mawr—maent yn amlwg iawn: mae gan y cyd-Weinidogion iechyd a gwasanaethau cymdeithasol ac addysg ac ati bortffolios ag iddynt wariant mawr yng nghyswllt llywodraeth leol—i wneud yn siŵr ein bod yn cyflwyno darlun mor glir ac agored ag y bo modd i lywodraeth leol, o ystyried yr anawsterau y maent yn eu cael gydag agenda cyni. Mae'n amlwg fod angen iddynt allu cynllunio eu gwariant mor fedrus ag y gallwn wneud iddynt ei wneud.
Diolch i'r Gweinidog.
Thank you, Minister.
Yr eitem nesaf yw’r cwestiynau amserol, ond ni ddewiswyd unrhyw gwestiynau amserol yr wythnos yma.
The next item is topical questions, but no topical questions were accepted this week.
Felly, y datganiadau 90 eiliad, a’r datganiad cyntaf heddiw gan David Rowlands.
That brings us to the 90-second statements, and the first today is from David Rowlands.
On 10 January 1879, three columns of British soldiers crossed the Buffalo river into Zululand, South Africa, leaving some 1,800 soldiers of the 24th Regiment of Foot in camp at Isandlwana. On 22 January, the forces of Zulu King Cetshwayo, numbering some 20,000, encircled the British camp. The following battle resulted in one of the worst defeats ever recorded by the British army. Over 1,300 of the camp defenders were slaughtered.
On the evening of 22 January, some 3,000 Zulu warriors, fresh from the massacre at Isandlwana, descended on Rorke's Drift, defended by a force of just 140 men, which included soldiers of the 24th Regiment of Foot, the South Wales Borderers. The ensuing battle lasted through the night and into the day of 23 January. The events of that night and following day were to be one of the British army's finest moments. Against overwhelming odds, the garrison at Rorke's Drift repulsed attack after attack from some of the most ferocious and courageous native fighters in the whole of Africa.
Hostilities only came to an end when, in a demonstration of great humanity, and in acknowledgement of the bravery of fellow warriors, the Zulu prince Dabulamanzi called off his troops, saluted the garrison and withdrew. Subsequently, 11 Victoria Crosses were awarded for the gallant defence at Rorke's Drift, the highest number of Victoria Crosses ever awarded for a single action. On this day, the one hundred and fortieth anniversary of that battle, it is fitting that we remember those on both sides who showed such exceptional courage.
Ar 10 Ionawr 1879, croesodd tair colofn o filwyr Prydeinig yr afon Buffalo i mewn i Wlad y Zwlw, De Affrica, gan adael tua 1,800 o filwyr o 24ain Gatrawd y Milwyr Traed yn y gwersyll yn Isandlwana. Ar 22 Ionawr, amgylchynodd tua 20,000 o luoedd Brenin Gwlad y Zwlw, Cetshwayo, y gwersyll Prydeinig. Arweiniodd y frwydr a ddilynodd at un o'r gorchfygiadau gwaethaf a gofnodwyd erioed gan y fyddin Brydeinig. Lladdwyd dros 1,300 o amddiffynwyr y gwersyll.
Gyda'r nos ar 22 Ionawr, disgynnodd tua 3,000 o ryfelwyr Zwlw, yn ffres o'r gyflafan yn Isandlwana, ar Rorke's Drift, a gâi ei amddiffyn gan lu o 140 o ddynion yn unig, yn cynnwys milwyr o'r 24ain Gatrawd o Filwyr Traed, Cyffinwyr De Cymru. Parhaodd y frwydr a ddilynodd drwy'r nos ac i mewn i'r 23 Ionawr. Roedd digwyddiadau'r noson honno a'r diwrnod wedyn yn mynd i fod yn un o funudau gwychaf y Fyddin Brydeinig. Yn erbyn pob disgwyl, gwrthsafodd y garsiwn yn Rorke's Drift ymosodiad ar ôl ymosodiad gan rai o ymladdwyr brodorol mwyaf ffyrnig a dewr Affrica gyfan.
Daeth yr ymladd i ben pan alwodd y Tywysog Zwlw, Dabulamanzi, mewn arddangosiad o drugaredd mawr ac i gydnabod dewrder ei gydryfelwyr, ar ei filwyr i roi'r gorau i ymladd, saliwtiodd y garsiwn a thynnodd yn ôl. Yn dilyn hynny, dyfarnwyd 11 croes Victoria am amddiffyn Rorke's Drift mor ddewr, y nifer uchaf o groesau Victoria a roddwyd erioed mewn un frwydr. Ar y diwrnod hwn, gant a deugain o flynyddoedd ers y frwydr honno, mae'n briodol ein bod yn cofio'r rhai ar y ddwy ochr a ddangosodd ddewrder mor eithriadol.
This week, in the lead-up to the 2019 Holocaust Memorial Day, I was privileged to join members of the community in Merthyr Tydfil who gathered to mark the completion of the Holocaust memorial garden at the rear of Merthyr Tydfil library. It's one small but important example of how a community, starting out with a grant from the Holocaust Memorial Day Trust, then with the assistance of several local groups of volunteers, can be part of the international effort of remembrance, research and education about Holocaust.
This year, we will reflect on the theme of Holocaust Memorial Day, torn from home, the challenges of being torn from home in the face of war, conflict and persecution and the basic desire for a better, safer life. This year also, I can't help but add a personal note of remembrance, having just returned from a visit to Auschwitz-Birkenau. We should never forget the horrors of Holocaust and we should use this time to reflect on the conditions that allowed such barbaric acts to occur—not just Nazi persecution, but genocide in Cambodia, Rwanda, Bosnia, and Darfur.
My recent visit reinforced to me the value of each of our acts of remembrance, whether it's in Merthyr Tydfil, or whether it's here in the National Assembly, as we did at our vigil on the Senedd steps this lunchtime, or across our nation. In these testing times, let each of us reflect on our words, our thoughts and our actions, and let us remember those torn from home and pledge again that we will play our part in sustaining the conditions that ensure that the horrors of Holocaust are not repeated.
Yr wythnos hon, yn arwain at Ddiwrnod Cofio'r Holocost 2019, cefais y fraint o ymuno ag aelodau'r gymuned ym Merthyr Tudful a ddaeth at ei gilydd i nodi cwblhau Gardd Cofio'r Holocost yng nghefn Llyfrgell Merthyr Tudful. Mae'n un enghraifft fach ond pwysig o sut y gall cymuned, gan ddechrau gyda grant gan Ymddiriedolaeth Diwrnod Cofio'r Holocost, ac yna drwy gymorth nifer o grwpiau lleol o wirfoddolwyr, fod yn rhan o ymdrech ryngwladol i gofio, ymchwilio ac addysgu am Holocost.
Eleni, byddwn yn myfyrio ar thema Diwrnod Cofio'r Holocost, rhwygo o'u cartref, yr heriau o gael eich rhwygo o'ch cartref yn wyneb rhyfel, gwrthdaro ac erledigaeth a'r dyhead sylfaenol am fywyd gwell a mwy diogel. Eleni hefyd, ni allaf helpu ond ychwanegu nodyn personol i'r cofio, a minnau newydd ddychwelyd o ymweliad ag Auschwitz-Birkenau. Ni ddylem byth anghofio erchyllterau'r Holocost a dylem ddefnyddio'r amser hwn i fyfyrio ar yr amodau a ganiataodd i weithredoedd barbaraidd o'r fath ddigwydd—nid erledigaeth Natsïaidd yn unig, ond hil-laddiad yn Cambodia, Rwanda, Bosnia a Darfur.
Mae fy ymweliad diweddar wedi atgyfnerthu gwerth pob un o'n gweithredoedd cofio, boed ym Merthyr Tudful, neu yma yn y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol, fel y gwnaethom wrth gynnau cannwyll ar risiau'r Senedd amser cinio heddiw, neu ar draws ein gwlad. Yn yr adeg anodd hon, gadewch i bob un ohonom fyfyrio ar ein geiriau, ein meddyliau a'n gweithredoedd, a gadewch inni gofio'r rhai a rwygwyd o'u cartrefi ac addo unwaith eto y gwnawn ni chwarae ein rhan yn cynnal yr amodau a fydd yn sicrhau nad ailadroddir erchyllterau'r Holocost.
Yr eitem nesaf yw cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 26.91 yn ceisio cytundeb y Cynulliad i gyflwyno Bil Aelod ar hawliau pobl hŷn. Dwi'n galw ar Darren Millar i wneud y cynnig.
The next item is the motion under Standing Order 26.91 seeking the Assembly's agreement to introduce a Member Bill on older people's rights. I call on Darren Millar to move the motion.
Cynnig NDM6940 Darren Millar
Cynnig bod Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru, yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 26.91:
Yn cytuno y caiff Darren Millar AC gyflwyno Bil i roi effaith i'r wybodaeth a gaiff ei chynnwys yn y Memorandwm Esboniadol a gyhoeddwyd ar 14 Rhagfyr 2018 o dan Reol Sefydlog 26.91A.
Motion NDM6940 Darren Millar
To propose that the National Assembly for Wales, in accordance with Standing Order 26.91:
Agrees that Darren Millar AM may introduce a Bill to give effect to the information included in the Explanatory Memorandum published on 14 December 2018 under Standing Order 26.91A.
Cynigiwyd y cynnig.
Motion moved.
Diolch, Llywydd. I move the motion seeking the Assembly's agreement to allow me to introduce a Member Bill on older people's rights.
As a nation, we can be very proud that many of us are living longer and are healthier in our old age than ever before. And we can be proud of the excellent track record that we have in championing and supporting our older people here in Wales. We were the first nation in the world to appoint an older people's commissioner, the first UK nation to incorporate the UN conventions on the rights of the child and older people into domestic law, and the first to establish the public sector equality duty under the Equality Act 2010. Today, the National Assembly for Wales has the opportunity, once again, to lead the way by supporting proposals for an older people's rights Bill.
We have the highest proportion of older people in the UK—one in four people living here in Wales is over the age of 60—and that demographic rise is set to continue. It's estimated by Age Alliance that, by 2030, the number of people aged over 65 living in Wales will increase by more than a third. And, when it comes to the over-85s, that's going to increase by a staggering 80 per cent. Now, some have complained that such an increase in older people is placing a burden on society, yet these people never mention the enormous contribution that older people make to our country. The Royal Voluntary Service has estimated that people aged over 65 make a contribution of over £1 billion annually to the Welsh economy, and that's net of pension, health and social care costs. Age Alliance have suggested that the value of childcare provided by grandparents in Wales is over £0.25 billion per year, and the value of their volunteering is estimated to be just shy of £0.5 billion. Yet, in spite of this huge contribution, it's true to say that some of our older people may need extra support or assistance, when compared to the rest of the population.
Many are frequent users of public services; they can be more dependent on the care of others and they may be—and often are—subject to age discrimination. Older people can be disproportionately impacted by the closure of facilities such as public conveniences, banks, libraries, post offices, hospitals or the withdrawal of public transport such as bus services. And at a time when more and more key services are only available online, more than half of adults, we must remember, over the age of 75, have never ever used the internet. All of this can make older people more vulnerable and more likely to lose their independence, and therefore they are at greater risk of their rights being violated.
Many older people are carers and compared to the rest of the UK, Wales has a higher number of older carers who are often in poorer health themselves. Living with a long-term illness or disability is challenging at the best of times, but all the more so when you have a caring responsibility. But many older people do not have anybody close by to support them. Loneliness and isolation are daily realities for many older people, and it's tragic that, according to Age Cymru, around 75,000 older people in Wales have reported—and I quote—'always or often feeling lonely'. Lonely people are more likely to suffer poor health, become vulnerable, and have their rights violated.
Research has also indicated that Wales has the highest prevalence of elder abuse in the UK. Action on Elder Abuse have found that 12.5 per cent of those over 65 in Wales have been subject to abuse, representing almost 100,000 people a year, but the current system isn't sufficiently identifying abuse cases, and victims often don't feel empowered to tell people, and perhaps this is why fewer than 1 per cent of cases result in a successful criminal conviction.
And then we have the problem of ageism. It's an issue that we rarely talk about, but its impact upon older people can be just as devastating as racism, sexism or homophobia. Negative stereotypes of older people are still common, as is the derogatory and disrespectful language that is often used to describe people once they reach a certain age.
It's for all of these reasons that I'm seeking permission from the Assembly today to introduce an older people's rights Bill. The purpose of the Bill is to build on Wales's excellent track record to date by embedding a rights-based approach in the development, planning and delivery of public services that affect older people in Wales. If given permission, I will seek to consult with stakeholders to develop a Bill that will further enshrine the rights of older people within Welsh law, by placing a duty on Welsh Ministers to have regard to the United Nations Principles for Older Persons when making decisions that may impact upon older people in Wales; that will provide for the ability to extend that due-regard duty to local authorities, health boards and other Welsh public authorities; that will place a duty on Welsh Ministers to promote knowledge of and understanding of the UN Principles for Older Persons; and that will require Welsh Ministers to publish annual reports on their compliance with their older people's rights schemes—something that doesn't happen at the moment.
Now, this approach might sound familiar to some people in this Chamber, and that's because the duties are very similar to those that have been set out in the Rights of Children and Young Persons (Wales) Measure 2011. That legislation, of course, was very well received by stakeholders, and it's made a positive impact on children's experiences and in raising awareness of children's rights across the country. Now, I'm very confident that we can secure some similar results through legislation on older people's rights.
I first suggested a Bill of this kind during a short debate back in January of 2012, and since then a great deal has happened. Later that year, the First Minister established an advisory group—the then First Minister—to explore the development of a Welsh declaration of rights for older people. And then, in 2014, the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014 finally embedded the UN Principles for Older Persons into Welsh law for the very first time. We then had the Welsh declaration of the rights of older people, which was finally published in 2014. In the following year, 2015, the older people's commissioner at the time, Sarah Rochira, called for better protection of older people's rights, and she went on, in January of 2016, to publish 'Making rights real in public services', which provided guidance to leaders in the public sector on how they could embed the human rights of older people into their public services. Now, all of this progress, of course, is very, very welcome. In January 2016 as well, this National Assembly voted for an amended motion that called on the Welsh Government to, and I quote,
'work with the Older People's Commissioner to bring forward legislation to protect and promote the rights of older people.'
And it was the then health Minister at the time—now the First Minister—who accepted that amended motion, and all political parties in the Senedd voted for it. I regret, though, that the outcome of that vote has never, ever been fully implemented, and that the progress that we have made has stalled. [Interruption.] I'll happily take an intervention, yes.
Diolch, Lywydd. Rwy'n gwneud y cynnig i geisio cytundeb y Cynulliad i ganiatáu i mi gyflwyno Bil Aelod ar hawliau pobl hŷn.
Fel cenedl, gallwn fod yn falch iawn fod llawer ohonom yn byw'n hwy ac yn iachach yn ein henaint nag erioed o'r blaen. A gallwn fod yn falch o'r hanes rhagorol sydd gennym yn cefnogi ein pobl hŷn yma yng Nghymru. Ni oedd y genedl gyntaf yn y byd i benodi comisiynydd pobl hŷn, y wlad gyntaf yn y DU i ymgorffori confensiynau'r Cenhedloedd Unedig ar hawliau'r plentyn a phobl hŷn mewn cyfraith ddomestig, a'r gyntaf i sefydlu dyletswydd cydraddoldeb y sector cyhoeddus o dan Ddeddf Cydraddoldeb 2010. Heddiw, mae cyfle gan Gynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru, unwaith eto, i arwain y ffordd drwy gefnogi cynigion ar gyfer Bil hawliau pobl hŷn.
Ni sydd â'r gyfran uchaf o bobl hŷn yn y DU—mae un o bob pedwar o'r bobl sy'n byw yma yng Nghymru dros 60 oed—a bydd y cynnydd demograffig hwnnw'n parhau. Erbyn 2030, amcangyfrifa Cynghrair Henoed Cymru y bydd nifer y bobl hŷn dros 65 oed sy'n byw yng Nghymru yn gweld cynnydd o fwy na thraean. Ac o ran y bobl dros 85 oed, mae eu nifer yn mynd i gynyddu 80 y cant, sy'n syfrdanol. Nawr, mae rhai wedi cwyno bod cynnydd o'r fath yn nifer y bobl hŷn yn rhoi baich ar gymdeithas, ac eto nid yw'r bobl hyn byth yn sôn am y cyfraniad aruthrol y mae pobl hŷn yn ei wneud i'n gwlad. Mae'r Gwasanaeth Gwirfoddol Brenhinol yn amcangyfrif bod pobl dros 65 oed yn cyfrannu dros £1 biliwn bob blwyddyn i economi Cymru, ac mae hwnnw'n swm net o'r costau pensiwn, iechyd a gofal cymdeithasol. Mae Cynghrair Henoed Cymru wedi awgrymu bod gwerth y gofal plant a ddarperir gan neiniau a theidiau yng Nghymru dros £0.25 biliwn y flwyddyn, ac amcangyfrifir bod gwerth eu gwaith gwirfoddol fymryn yn is na £0.5 biliwn. Eto, er gwaethaf y cyfraniad enfawr hwn, mae'n wir dweud y gall rhai o'n pobl hŷn fod angen cymorth neu gefnogaeth ychwanegol, o'i gymharu â gweddill y boblogaeth.
Mae llawer ohonynt yn defnyddio gwasanaethau cyhoeddus yn aml; gallant fod yn fwy dibynnol ar ofal eraill a gallant fod—ac maent, yn aml—yn destun gwahaniaethu ar sail oedran. Gall pobl hŷn gael eu heffeithio'n anghymesur yn sgil cau cyfleusterau megis toiledau cyhoeddus, banciau, llyfrgelloedd, swyddfeydd post, ysbytai neu ddiddymu trafnidiaeth gyhoeddus megis gwasanaethau bysiau. Ac ar adeg pan fo mwy a mwy o wasanaethau allweddol ond ar gael ar-lein yn unig, rhaid inni gofio nad yw dros hanner yr oedolion sydd dros 75 oed erioed wedi defnyddio'r rhyngrwyd. Gall hyn oll wneud pobl hŷn fwy agored i niwed ac yn fwy tebygol o golli eu hannibyniaeth, ac felly maent yn wynebu mwy o risg y caiff eu hawliau eu tramgwyddo.
Mae llawer o bobl hŷn yn ofalwyr ac o'i gymharu â gweddill y DU, mae gan Gymru nifer uwch o ofalwyr hŷn sy'n aml yn llai iach eu hunain. Mae byw gyda salwch neu anabledd hirdymor yn heriol ar y gorau, ond yn fwy felly pan fo gennych gyfrifoldeb gofalu. Ond mae llawer o bobl hŷn heb neb gerllaw i'w cefnogi. Mae unigrwydd ac arwahanrwydd yn realiti dyddiol i lawer o bobl hŷn, ac mae'n drasig fod tua 75,000 o bobl hŷn yng Nghymru wedi dweud, yn ôl Age Cymru—ac rwy'n dyfynnu—eu bod 'bob amser neu'n aml yn teimlo'n unig'. Mae pobl unig yn fwy tebygol o ddioddef iechyd gwael, o fod yn agored i niwed, ac o gael eu hawliau wedi'u tramgwyddo.
Mae ymchwil wedi dangos hefyd mai yng Nghymru y ceir y gyfradd uchaf o achosion o gam-drin yr henoed yn y DU. Gwelodd Action on Elder Abuse fod 12.5 y cant o bobl dros 65 oed yng Nghymru wedi dioddef cam-drin, sef bron i 100,000 o bobl y flwyddyn, ond nid yw'r system bresennol yn nodi achosion o gam-drin yn ddigonol, ac yn aml nid yw dioddefwyr yn teimlo eu bod wedi'u grymuso ddigon i allu dweud wrth bobl, ac efallai mai dyna pam fod llai nag 1 y cant o achosion yn arwain at euogfarn droseddol lwyddiannus.
Ac yna mae gennym broblem gwahaniaethu ar sail oedran. Mae'n fater nad ydym yn siarad fawr ddim amdano, ond gall ei effaith ar bobl hŷn fod yr un mor ddinistriol â hiliaeth, rhywiaeth neu homoffobia. Mae stereoteipiau negyddol o bobl hŷn yn dal i fod yn gyffredin, fel y mae iaith ddifrïol ac amharchus a ddefnyddir yn aml i ddisgrifio pobl pan fyddant yn cyrraedd oedran penodol.
Dyma'r rhesymau pam rwy'n ceisio caniatâd gan y Cynulliad heddiw i gyflwyno Bil hawliau pobl hŷn. Diben y Bil yw adeiladu ar hanes ardderchog Cymru hyd yn hyn drwy ymgorffori ymagwedd seiliedig ar hawliau yn y broses o ddatblygu, cynllunio a darparu gwasanaethau cyhoeddus sy'n effeithio ar bobl hŷn yng Nghymru. Os caf ganiatâd, byddaf yn ceisio ymgynghori â rhanddeiliaid i ddatblygu Bil a fydd yn ymgorffori hawliau pobl hŷn ymhellach yng nghyfraith Cymru, drwy osod dyletswydd ar Weinidogion Cymru i roi sylw i Egwyddorion y Cenhedloedd Unedig ar gyfer Pobl Hŷn wrth wneud penderfyniadau a allai effeithio ar bobl hŷn yng Nghymru; a fydd yn darparu ar gyfer y gallu i ymestyn y ddyletswydd sylw dyledus honno i awdurdodau lleol, byrddau iechyd ac awdurdodau cyhoeddus eraill Cymru; a fydd yn gosod dyletswydd ar Weinidogion Cymru i hyrwyddo gwybodaeth a dealltwriaeth o Egwyddorion y Cenhedloedd Unedig ar gyfer Pobl Hŷn; ac a fydd yn ei gwneud yn ofynnol i Weinidogion Cymru gyhoeddi adroddiadau blynyddol ar eu cydymffurfiaeth â'u cynlluniau hawliau pobl hŷn—rhywbeth nad yw'n digwydd ar hyn o bryd.
Nawr, efallai fod yr ymagwedd hon yn swnio'n gyfarwydd i rai pobl yn y Siambr, a'r rheswm am hynny yw fod y dyletswyddau'n debyg iawn i'r rhai a osodwyd yn y Mesur Hawliau Plant a Phobl Ifanc (Cymru) 2011. Wrth gwrs, cafodd y ddeddfwriaeth honno dderbyniad da iawn gan randdeiliaid, ac mae wedi cael effaith gadarnhaol ar brofiadau plant ac o ran codi ymwybyddiaeth o hawliau plant ar draws y wlad. Nawr, rwy'n hyderus iawn y gallwn sicrhau canlyniadau tebyg drwy ddeddfwriaeth ar hawliau pobl hŷn.
Awgrymais Fil o'r math hwn yn ystod dadl fer yn ôl ym mis Ionawr 2012, ac ers hynny mae llawer iawn wedi digwydd. Yn ddiweddarach y flwyddyn honno, sefydlwyd grŵp cynghori gan y Prif Weinidog—y Prif Weinidog ar y pryd—i ymchwilio i'r gwaith o ddatblygu datganiad o hawliau pobl hŷn yng Nghymru. Ac yna, yn 2014, o'r diwedd, ymgorfforodd Deddf Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol a Llesiant (Cymru) 2014 Egwyddorion y Cenhedloedd Unedig ar gyfer Pobl Hŷn yng nghyfraith Cymru am y tro cyntaf. Yna cawsom y datganiad o hawliau pobl hŷn yng Nghymru, a gyhoeddwyd yn y pen draw yn 2014. Yn y flwyddyn ganlynol, 2015, galwodd y comisiynydd pobl hŷn ar y pryd, Sarah Rochira, am amddiffyn hawliau pobl hŷn yn well, ac aeth ymlaen, ym mis Ionawr 2016, i gyhoeddi 'Rhoi Hawliau ar Waith mewn Gwasanaethau Cyhoeddus', a roddodd arweiniad i arweinwyr yn y sector cyhoeddus ar sut y gallent ymgorffori hawliau dynol pobl hŷn yn eu gwasanaethau cyhoeddus. Nawr, mae'r holl gynnydd hwn, wrth gwrs, i'w groesawu'n gynnes iawn. Ym mis Ionawr 2016 yn ogystal, pleidleisiodd y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol hwn dros gynnig wedi'i ddiwygio a alwai ar Lywodraeth Cymru, ac rwy'n dyfynnu,
'i weithio gyda'r Comisiynydd Pobl Hŷn i gyflwyno deddfwriaeth i amddiffyn a hyrwyddo hawliau pobl hŷn.'
A'r Gweinidog iechyd ar y pryd—y Prif Weinidog erbyn hyn—a dderbyniodd y cynnig hwnnw fel y'i diwygiwyd, a phleidleisiodd pob plaid wleidyddol yn y Senedd o'i blaid. Rwy'n gresynnu, fodd bynnag, na chafodd canlyniad y bleidlais honno byth mo'i chyflawni'n llawn, a bod y cynnydd a wnaed gennym wedi arafu. [Torri ar draws.] Rwy'n hapus i dderbyn ymyriad.
Thanks so much for giving way, and my apologies for coming in late. I was watching on the monitor—. Llywydd, my apologies; my timing went to pot there. But I've listened with interest, including on the monitor as I was watching, and I welcome the very temperate way that he's laid out his case there. One significant change that has actually taken place subsequent to the timeline he talked about was last June, when Sarah Rochira, the previous older people's commissioner, actually left the post, and she stood in the Senedd just above us and she welcomed the work that had gone on with my officials at the time, which had led to a very tangible, concrete set of actions—tangible actions—that are now being worked on, which went far beyond what had gone before in words and so on, and that is still being taken through. So, I simply ask him to acknowledge that, actually, not only did Sarah recognise that, but my subsequent meeting with the new older people's commissioner also recognised that the approach being taken within Welsh Government is very proactive now.
Diolch yn fawr iawn am ildio, ac rwy'n ymddiheuro am ddod i mewn yn hwyr. Roeddwn yn gwylio ar y monitor—. Lywydd, fy ymddiheuriadau; aeth fy amseru rhwng y cŵn a'r brain. Ond rwyf wedi gwrando'n llawn diddordeb, gan gynnwys ar y monitor wrth i mi wylio, ac rwy'n croesawu'r ffordd gymedrol y mae wedi cyflwyno ei ddadl. Un newid arwyddocaol sydd wedi digwydd ers yr amserlen y soniodd amdano oedd yr hyn a ddigwyddodd fis Mehefin diwethaf, pan adawodd Sarah Rochira, y comisiynydd pobl hŷn blaenorol, ei swydd, a safodd yn y Senedd ychydig uwch ein pennau a chroesawu'r gwaith a oedd wedi digwydd gyda fy swyddogion ar y pryd, a oedd wedi arwain at gyfres gadarn a phendant iawn o gamau gweithredu—camau sylweddol—sydd ar y gweill yn awr, ac a aeth ymhell y tu hwnt i'r hyn a oedd wedi digwydd cyn hynny mewn geiriau ac ati, ac mae hynny'n dal i gael ei ddatblygu. Felly, gofynnaf iddo gydnabod, mewn gwirionedd, nid yn unig fod Sarah wedi cydnabod hynny, ond roedd fy nghyfarfod dilynol gyda'r comisiynydd pobl hŷn newydd hefyd yn cydnabod bod y dull o weithredu o fewn Llywodraeth Cymru yn rhagweithiol iawn yn awr.
I very much welcome the progress that's been made, but it's not underpinned by legislation, which is the point of the Bill that I'm proposing, and we have an opportunity to further that cause—the cause that, I think, we all share in terms of wanting to promote older people's rights—by supporting this Bill today. And, of course, that's why the older people's commissioner—the current older people's commissioner—and the Equalities and Human Rights Commission are both backing my proposals for a Bill. I know a whole host of other organisations and stakeholders are backing this Bill, including Action on Elder Abuse Cymru, Age Alliance Wales, Age Connects Wales, Age Cymru, the Alzheimer's Society Cymru, Care and Repair Cymru, the Carers Trust Wales, Carers Wales, Cymru Older People's Alliance, Prime Cymru, the British Geriatric Society, the Centre for Ageing and Dementia Research—I could go on and on and on with more and more people on that list, but I think it shows the huge support that there is out there for a Bill of this kind.
Just a very brief word on the potential financial implications of the Bill: the closest comparator in terms of legislation and associated costings is, of course, the Rights of Children and Young Persons (Wales) Measure 2011. Now, the regulatory impact assessment for that Measure suggested that the costs over a three-year period of implementation were around £1.5 million. If we increase those by inflation, then it suggests that the costs for this sort of Bill might be around £1.75 million. However, the reality is that some of those costs are already being borne by Government because of the duties that are already contained, as I mentioned before, in the social services and well-being Act. So, it's likely to be much less than that. So, these costs, of course, will need further clarification in the future and more detailed consideration, but it suggests to me that this is an extremely affordable thing for us to be able to do.
In closing, then, Llywydd, I just want to remind people that we have a historic opportunity today. We embarked upon this journey a number of years ago and we can deliver and pioneer a new rights-based approach for older people's rights here in Wales. We've got an opportunity to develop legislation that will result in practical improvements in the decision making and delivery of public services, that will raise awareness of older people's rights and give them recognition and status, and that will empower those hundreds of thousands of older people across Wales to access those rights, and I urge Members to support the motion.
Rwy'n croesawu'n fawr y cynnydd a wnaed, ond nid yw'n seiliedig ar ddeddfwriaeth, sef pwynt y Bil rwy'n ei gynnig, ac mae gennym gyfle i hyrwyddo'r achos hwnnw—achos y mae pawb ohonom yn ei rannu, rwy'n credu, o ran yr awydd i hyrwyddo hawliau pobl hŷn—drwy gefnogi'r Bil hwn heddiw. Ac wrth gwrs, dyna pam y mae'r comisiynydd pobl hŷn—y comisiynydd pobl hŷn presennol—a'r Comisiwn Cydraddoldeb a Hawliau Dynol yn cefnogi fy nghynigion ar gyfer Bil. Gwn fod llu o sefydliadau a rhanddeiliaid eraill yn cefnogi'r Bil, gan gynnwys Action on Elder Abuse Cymru, Cynghrair Henoed Cymru, Age Connects Cymru, Age Cymru, Cymdeithas Alzheimer's Cymru, Gofal a Thrwsio Cymru, Ymddiriedolaeth Gofalwyr Cymru, Gofalwyr Cymru, Cynghrair Pobl Hŷn Cymru, Prime Cymru, Cymdeithas Henoed Prydain, y Ganolfan Ymchwil Heneiddio a Dementia—gallwn fynd ymlaen ac ymlaen ac ymlaen gyda mwy a mwy o bobl ar y rhestr honno, ond credaf ei bod yn dangos y gefnogaeth aruthrol a geir i Fil o'r math hwn.
Gair sydyn am oblygiadau ariannol y Bil; y cymharydd agosaf o ran deddfwriaeth a chostau cysylltiedig yw Mesur Hawliau Plant a Phobl Ifanc (Cymru) 2011 wrth gwrs. Nawr, awgrymodd yr asesiad effaith rheoleiddiol ar y Mesur hwnnw fod y costau dros gyfnod o dair blynedd o weithredu oddeutu £1.5 miliwn. Byddai cynyddu'r rhain drwy ychwanegu chwyddiant yn awgrymu y byddai costau Bil o'r math hwn oddeutu £1.75 miliwn. Fodd bynnag, y realiti yw bod rhai o'r costau hynny eisoes yn cael eu talu gan y Llywodraeth oherwydd y dyletswyddau sydd eisoes wedi'u cynnwys, fel y soniais, yn y Ddeddf gwasanaethau cymdeithasol a llesiant. Felly, mae'n debygol o fod yn llawer llai na hynny. Felly, bydd angen egluro mwy ar y costau hyn, wrth gwrs, a'u hystyried yn fwy manwl, ond mae'n awgrymu i mi fod hyn yn rhywbeth hynod fforddiadwy i ni allu ei wneud.
I gloi felly, Lywydd, hoffwn atgoffa pobl fod gennym gyfle hanesyddol heddiw. Cychwynasom ar y daith hon nifer o flynyddoedd yn ôl, a gallwn ddarparu ac arloesi dull newydd sy'n seiliedig ar hawliau mewn perthynas â hawliau pobl hŷn yma yng Nghymru. Mae gennym gyfle i ddatblygu deddfwriaeth a fydd yn arwain at welliannau ymarferol wrth wneud penderfyniadau a darparu gwasanaethau cyhoeddus, a fydd codi ymwybyddiaeth o hawliau pobl hŷn ac yn rhoi cydnabyddiaeth a statws iddynt, ac a fydd yn grymuso'r cannoedd o filoedd o bobl hŷn ledled Cymru i fynnu'r hawliau hynny, ac rwy'n annog yr Aelodau i gefnogi'r cynnig.
Galwaf ar y Dirprwy Weinidog Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol, Julie Morgan.
I call on the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services, Julie Morgan.
Thank you, Presiding Officer. Everyone in Wales deserves to have their rights recognised and made real, and raising the awareness of older people about the rights they already have and making sure those rights are embedded in both the way public services are delivered, and, indeed, in society more broadly, is of the utmost importance, and I do believe it is this concern that has prompted Darren Millar to bring this Bill proposed today, and I certainly agree strongly with the sentiments that lie behind the proposed Bill.
Wales has a long history of working with and for older people, as Darren Millar has acknowledged, from the introduction of the first strategy for older people in Wales in 2003 to establishing the world's first older people's commissioner in 2008, and this work continues today with a renewed focus on older people's rights, as Huw Irranca-Davies has mentioned. Current work to embed older people's rights across the Welsh public services includes the following: producing practical guidance to demonstrate how public bodies can have due regard to the UN Principles for Older Persons, as required by the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014; updating the 2009 guidance on escalating concerns on the closure of care homes; planning for a social care awareness-raising campaign in spring 2019, which will include awareness raising about older people's rights under existing law; and working closely with older people, public bodies, third sector organisations and leading academics to co-produce a strategy for an ageing society—and early work on this is being overseen by the ministerial advisory forum on ageing. It will adopt a rights-based approach that is placing older people at the heart of policy making. That's not an exhaustive list, but I think it does demonstrate the Welsh Government's commitment to protect and uphold older persons' rights.
In addition to this work on making rights real, Welsh Government has taken many actions to support older people on a wider basis. This includes free swimming, free bus passes, boosting advocacy services, engaging older people through a ministerial advisory forum, funding falls prevention initiatives, improving the quality of care homes, funding a dementia action plan, tackling loneliness and isolation, increasing the capital limit for residential care, and investing significantly in health and care, including through the integrated care fund.
So, when we consider the merits of this proposed legislation, we must put it in context. Older people's rights are already enshrined in the UK Human Rights Act 1998, and age is a protected characteristic under the Equality Act 2010. Specifically in Wales, the social services and well-being Act requires local authorities to have due regard to the UN Principles for Older People and gives older people a strong voice in the arrangements for any care they may need. [Interruption.] Yes, certainly.
Diolch i chi, Lywydd. Mae pawb yng Nghymru yn haeddu cael eu hawliau wedi eu cydnabod a'u gwneud yn real, ac mae codi ymwybyddiaeth pobl hŷn ynglŷn â'r hawliau sydd ganddynt eisoes a gwneud yn siŵr fod yr hawliau hynny wedi sefydlu yn y ffordd y caiff gwasanaethau cyhoeddus eu darparu, ac yn wir, mewn cymdeithas yn fwy cyffredinol, o'r pwys mwyaf, ac rwy'n credu mai'r pryder hwn sydd wedi ysgogi Darren Millar i ddwyn y Bil hwn gerbron heddiw, ac yn sicr, rwy'n cytuno'n gryf â'r teimladau sydd wrth wraidd y Mesur a argymhellir.
Mae gan Gymru hanes hir o weithio gyda ac ar ran pobl hŷn, fel y mae Darren Millar wedi cydnabod, o gyflwyno'r strategaeth gyntaf ar gyfer pobl hŷn yng Nghymru yn 2003 i sefydlu comisiynydd pobl hŷn cyntaf y byd yn 2008, ac mae'r gwaith hwn yn parhau heddiw gyda ffocws o'r newydd ar hawliau pobl hŷn, fel y crybwyllodd Huw Irranca-Davies. Mae gwaith cyfredol ar sicrhau bod hawliau pobl hŷn yn gwreiddio ar draws y gwasanaethau cyhoeddus yng Nghymru yn cynnwys y canlynol: cynhyrchu canllawiau ymarferol i ddangos sut y gall cyrff cyhoeddus roi sylw dyledus i Egwyddorion y Cenhedloedd Unedig ar gyfer Pobl Hŷn, fel sy'n ofynnol dan Ddeddf Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol a Llesiant (Cymru) 2014; diweddaru canllawiau 2009 ar bryderon cynyddol ynglŷn â chau cartrefi gofal; cynllunio ar gyfer ymgyrch codi ymwybyddiaeth o ofal cymdeithasol yng ngwanwyn 2019, a fydd yn cynnwys codi ymwybyddiaeth o hawliau pobl hŷn o dan y gyfraith bresennol; a chydweithio'n agos â phobl hŷn, cyrff cyhoeddus, sefydliadau trydydd sector ac academyddion blaenllaw ar gydgynhyrchu strategaeth ar gyfer cymdeithas sy'n heneiddio—a goruchwylir gwaith cynnar ar hyn gan fforwm cynghori'r Gweinidog ar heneiddio. Bydd yn mabwysiadu dull yn seiliedig ar hawliau, sy'n gosod pobl hŷn wrth wraidd y broses o lunio polisi. Nid yw honno'n rhestr gynhwysfawr, ond credaf ei bod yn dangos ymrwymiad Llywodraeth Cymru i ddiogelu ac i gynnal hawliau pobl hŷn.
Yn ychwanegol at y gwaith hwn ar sicrhau bod hawliau'n real, mae Llywodraeth Cymru wedi rhoi nifer o gamau ar waith i gefnogi pobl hŷn ar sail ehangach. Mae hyn yn cynnwys nofio am ddim, tocynnau teithio am ddim ar fysiau, hybu gwasanaethau eiriolaeth, ymgysylltu â phobl hŷn drwy fforwm cynghori'r Gweinidog, ariannu mentrau atal cwympiadau, gwella ansawdd cartrefi gofal, ariannu cynllun gweithredu ar gyfer dementia, mynd i'r afael ag unigrwydd ac arwahanrwydd, cynyddu'r terfyn cyfalaf ar gyfer gofal preswyl, a buddsoddi'n sylweddol mewn iechyd a gofal, gan gynnwys drwy gyfrwng y gronfa gofal integredig.
Felly, pan fyddwn yn ystyried rhinweddau'r ddeddfwriaeth a argymhellir, rhaid inni ei rhoi mewn cyd-destun. Mae hawliau pobl hŷn eisoes wedi'u hymgorffori yn Neddf Hawliau Dynol y DU 1998, ac mae oed yn nodwedd warchodedig o dan Ddeddf Cydraddoldeb 2010. Yn benodol yng Nghymru, mae'r Ddeddf gwasanaethau cymdeithasol a llesiant yn ei gwneud yn ofynnol i awdurdodau lleol roi sylw dyledus i Egwyddorion y Cenhedloedd Unedig ar gyfer Pobl Hŷn ac yn rhoi llais cryf i bobl hŷn yn y trefniadau ar gyfer unrhyw ofal y gallent fod ei angen. [Torri ar draws.] Iawn, yn sicr.
Oh—
O—
I think Suzy Davies was first.
Credaf mai Suzy Davies oedd yn gyntaf.
Sorry, I didn't see you, Suzy.
Mae'n ddrwg gennyf, ni wneuthum eich gweld, Suzy.
Sorry, Deputy Minister, perhaps you didn't see me. Thank you very much for taking the intervention. Before you conclude your speech, I wonder if you could explain what remedies are available to people who expect their rights to be observed, but actually are failed.
Mae'n ddrwg gennyf, Ddirprwy Weinidog, efallai na wnaethoch fy ngweld. Diolch yn fawr iawn i chi am dderbyn yr ymyriad. Cyn i chi orffen eich araith, tybed a allwch esbonio pa rwymedïau sydd ar gael i bobl sy'n disgwyl i'w hawliau gael eu parchu, ond sy'n cael cam mewn gwirionedd.
I will be going on to that in my speech. So, I will be covering that.
Byddaf yn dod at hynny yn fy araith. Felly, byddaf yn rhoi sylw i hynny.
Thank you, Suzy. Would—? Sorry, this is the first opportunity I've had to welcome you formally to your post, and I know you'll do a superb job, an absolutely superb job. Could I just ask you, though—? The acid test—whether it is legislation or whether it is the current Government's agenda of making these rights real—is when you walk into a group of older people and they tell you, 'I know what my rights are'. They tell you, in terms of the social services and well-being Act, 'I understand that the start of any conversation should be what matters to me', in the same way that you have when you walk into primary schools with children. Now, we haven't got there yet, and it's a moot point about whether a law is needed or not, I have to say. My personal preference is that we should continue embedding it in this way. But that's the acid test—when you walk into a group of older people and they say eloquently, articulately, 'I know my rights. I demand my rights.'
Diolch i chi, Suzy. A fyddai—? Mae'n ddrwg gennyf, dyma'r cyfle cyntaf i mi ei gael i'ch croesawu'n ffurfiol i'ch swydd, a gwn y byddwch yn gwneud gwaith gwych, gwaith gwirioneddol wych. A gaf fi ofyn, er hynny—? Y prawf asid—ai deddfwriaeth neu agenda bresennol y Llywodraeth o wneud yr hawliau hyn yn real—yw pan fyddwch yn cerdded i ganol grŵp o bobl hŷn ac maent yn dweud wrthych, 'Rwy'n gwybod beth yw fy hawliau'. Maent yn dweud, o ran y Ddeddf gwasanaethau cymdeithasol a llesiant, 'Rwy'n deall mai dechrau unrhyw sgwrs ddylai fod yn bwysig i mi', yn yr un modd ag a gewch pan fyddwch yn cerdded i mewn i ysgolion cynradd gyda phlant. Nawr, nid ydym wedi cyrraedd yno eto, ac mae'n bwynt dadleuol o ran yr angen am ddeddf neu beidio, rhaid imi ddweud. Fy newis personol yw y dylem barhau i'w ymgorffori yn y modd hwn. Ond dyna'r prawf asid—pan fyddwch yn cerdded i blith grŵp o bobl hŷn ac maent yn dweud yn huawdl, yn groyw, 'Rwy'n gwybod beth yw fy hawliau. Rwy'n mynnu fy hawliau.'
I absolutely agree with Huw Irranca-Davies and I'd like to thank him for all that he's done to further this agenda. But we do also know that there are other groups in society who suffer inequality and deserve to have their rights become the reality much more consistently.
We already know that there have been calls to enact the Convention on the Elimination of all Forms of Discrimination Against Women, CEDAW, and also to bring into Welsh law the UN convention on the rights of disabled people. But, acting upon the cases made for legislation put forward on behalf of different groups would risk a piecemeal approach to legislation, and I think an uneven approach would be confusing to the public bodies that have duties put on them, as it would be for the people of Wales.
As a Welsh Government, we are also concerned that, following Brexit, the UK Government may well seek to weaken or even repeal the UK Human Rights Act. Here today it's not possible to foresee whether these concerns will come to fruition, but as a Government we must take an approach that gives flexibility to respond to these potential circumstances. I see that all these arguments are arguments for taking a more ambitious, holistic approach to legislating for human rights that is proofed against potential circumstances. So, to develop our preferred approach, steps have already been taken towards commissioning independent research to examine how we can incorporate the seven UN rights treaties and the UN Principles for Older People into Welsh law, enact the socioeconomic duty and strengthen existing regulations or guidance.
Ministers will be meeting with a wide range of stakeholders, including the older people's commissioner and other commissioners and their representatives on 6 February, and I know the Member putting this Bill forward has also been invited to go to that seminar to discuss these issues. We intend to consult on the legislative models that emerge from the research and aim to come up with proposals by the end of this year. All this will be done with the involvement of older people and their representatives, amongst others.
So, to conclude, while I strongly support the sentiments behind this Bill, the time is not right for this particular bit of legislation. When we do legislate, we should do that holistically for the whole of society and in a way that identifies the needs of all disadvantaged groups. In not being able to support this Bill today, I would aim to work closely with the Member in charge, the older person's commissioner and other important partners and stakeholders, whatever the outcomes of the vote later today, to make rights real for older people. I don't think there's any disagreement here at all about the principles, but rather the desire from the Government to see a more ambitious, holistic and strategic approach, which I don't think is the proposal in front of us today.
Cytunaf yn llwyr gyda Huw Irranca-Davies, a hoffwn ddiolch iddo am bopeth y mae wedi'i wneud i hyrwyddo'r agenda hon. Ond rydym yn gwybod hefyd fod yna grwpiau eraill mewn cymdeithas sy'n dioddef anghydraddoldeb ac yn haeddu cael eu hawliau wedi'u gwireddu yn llawer mwy cyson.
Gwyddom eisoes fod galwadau wedi bod i weithredu'r Confensiwn ar Ddileu Pob Ffurf ar Wahaniaethu yn erbyn Menywod, a hefyd i ddwyn confensiwn y Cenhedloedd Unedig ar hawliau pobl anabl i mewn i gyfraith Cymru. Ond byddai gweithredu ar yr achosion a wnaed dros ddeddfwriaeth a gyflwynwyd ar ran gwahanol grwpiau yn creu perygl o ddull tameidiog o greu deddfwriaeth, a chredaf y byddai dull anwastad yn ddryslyd i'r cyrff cyhoeddus sydd â dyletswyddau, fel y byddai i bobl Cymru.
Fel Llywodraeth Cymru, rydym hefyd yn pryderu, yn dilyn Brexit, y gallai Llywodraeth y DU yn hawdd geisio gwanhau neu hyd yn oed ddiddymu Deddf Hawliau Dynol y DU. Yma heddiw nid yw'n bosibl rhagweld a fydd y pryderon hyn yn datblygu, ond fel Llywodraeth, rhaid inni fabwysiadu dull sy'n cynnig hyblygrwydd i ymateb i'r amgylchiadau posibl. Rwy'n gweld bod yr holl dadleuon hyn yn ddadleuon dros fabwysiadu dull mwy uchelgeisiol, mwy cyfannol o ddeddfu ar gyfer hawliau dynol wedi'i ddiogelu yn erbyn amgylchiadau posibl. Felly, er mwyn datblygu ein dull a ffafrir, mae camau eisoes wedi'u cymryd tuag at gomisiynu ymchwil annibynnol i edrych ar sut y gallwn ymgorffori saith cytuniad hawliau'r Cenhedloedd Unedig ac Egwyddorion y Cenhedloedd Unedig ar gyfer Pobl Hŷn yng nghyfraith Cymru, gweithredu'r ddyletswydd economaidd-gymdeithasol a chryfhau rheoliadau neu ganllawiau presennol.
Bydd Gweinidogion yn cyfarfod ag amrywiaeth eang o randdeiliaid, gan gynnwys y comisiynydd pobl hŷn a'r comisiynwyr eraill a'u cynrychiolwyr ar 6 Chwefror, a gwn fod yr Aelod a gyflwynodd y Bil hwn wedi cael gwahoddiad i fynd i'r seminar honno hefyd i drafod y materion hyn. Rydym yn bwriadu ymgynghori ar y modelau deddfwriaethol sy'n deillio o'r ymchwil a'r nod yw cyflwyno cynigion erbyn diwedd y flwyddyn hon. Gwneir hyn i gyd gan gynnwys y bobl hŷn a'u cynrychiolwyr, ymhlith eraill.
Felly, i gloi, er fy mod yn cefnogi'r teimladau sydd wrth wraidd y Bil hwn yn gryf, nid dyma'r amser ar gyfer y ddeddfwriaeth benodol hon. Pan fyddwn yn deddfu, dylem wneud hynny mewn ffordd gyfannol ar gyfer y gymdeithas gyfan ac mewn ffordd sy'n nodi anghenion yr holl grwpiau difreintiedig. Gan nad wyf yn gallu cefnogi'r Bil hwn heddiw, byddaf yn anelu i weithio'n agos gyda'r Aelod cyfrifol, y comisiynydd pobl hŷn a phartneriaid a rhanddeiliaid pwysig eraill, beth bynnag yw canlyniad y bleidlais yn ddiweddarach heddiw, er mwyn gwneud hawliau'n real i bobl hŷn. Nid wyf yn credu bod unrhyw anghytundeb o gwbl yma ynglŷn â'r egwyddorion, ond yn hytrach, awydd y Llywodraeth i weld dull mwy uchelgeisiol, cyfannol a strategol, ac nid wyf yn meddwl mai dyna sydd gennym yn y cynnig sydd ger ein bron heddiw.
It would be—[Interruption.] If I may proceed, if the Member would allow me, given that I'm standing at this particular point in this process to support the Member's proposal, and to recommend to the Assembly that we allow this legislation to proceed at this stage. I should say that in the Plaid Cymru group, we will be having a free vote on this, and Members will, as I feel is appropriate for backbench legislation, decide on the merits in their own views.
I think there is merit in principle to what Darren Millar is proposing. We do have evidence of the effectiveness of the partial incorporation of the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, and Members are aware, as the Minister has already alluded, of my proposal that we consider incorporating the convention on the rights of disabled people. As the Minister has said, I entirely concur with her, and the case that Darren Millar has set out, about the serious discrimination that older people suffer in many circumstances, though we must also acknowledge that older people are sometimes among the most privileged and the most financially successful, so this isn't universal. But I've been shocked, for example, to see the parlous state of some services for older people with mental health needs, and some of the care homes that I've visited have been profoundly shocking. I should also say that I've visited some settings that have been exceptional, and those settings have often not been the glossy ones, not the most expensive ones, but ones where the care is of the highest quality.
So, I do recognise Darren Millar's description of some of the challenges that we face in ensuring that older people are able to access their rights. And the question for this Assembly will be: is this piece of legislation—or will this piece of legislation, because, of course, we haven't seen it yet—will this piece of legislation be the most effective and the most likely to succeed in addressing that wide range of challenges that Darren Millar rightly sets out?
I've been very grateful for the discussions that I've had with Welsh Ministers, with Julie James and with Jane Hutt, following my proposal with regard to the disabled people's convention, about the broader agenda to incorporate that the Minister has set out for us today, and I've been very interested to read the Counsel General's views on this. As the Minister has rightly said, we do not yet know, if and when Brexit happens, how that will affect the equality legislation, because the UK legislation, of course, is predicated on an ultimate appeal to European courts, and that would no longer be the case. So, there are many unknowns in this situation. And I would be very disappointed if the work that the Minister has outlined were to be hampered in any way by the progress of this proposed Bill. However, where I do not agree with the Minister at present is that I don't accept that allowing this Bill to progress to the next stage would necessarily need to derail that work. Indeed, I could imagine a situation where we might proceed with this legislation, and at a further stage, the Government might choose to take it on board and to build it in to further work that they were doing, as was done, for example, when, in a previous Assembly, I introduced a carers' rights Measure that was then taken on by the Government and put into a broader piece of work that they were doing to promote carers' rights.
I want to make very clear today to the Government that I do not think that we can use the future generations and well-being Act, as it stands now, to move this agenda forward. There is no redress for the individual under the future generations and well-being Act, and the commissioner herself has made it very clear that she can do nothing other than name and shame. And I know that Ministers are looking at the inconsistency between the powers of our various commissioners, and also looking at the way in which those powers have or have not been used. And, again, I know that that will be built into the work that the Minister has outlined today. But, again, I do not see that that is a reason necessarily, at this stage, for this Assembly not to allow Darren Millar's proposal to proceed.
I will be very interested to see the detail of the Bill. I am very interested in the issue that Suzy Davies raised around enforceability because we know—and I look to Jane Hutt, our Minister for equality, who knows very well that unless individuals have mechanisms that they can use, that do not depend on the Government, that do not depend on an independent commissioner, but that they can use themselves to enforce those rights, those rights at their very end may not be enforced. And we have experience trying to implement sex equality legislation that makes that clear.
We are, I think—we can see from this debate—all united in our wish, in this Chamber, to address the discrimination that older people undoubtedly face. I believe that we should wait and see the detail of this Bill before we come to a conclusion as to whether or not this is the right way to proceed. And on that basis, I commend Darren Millar's motion to the house.
Byddai—[Torri ar draws.] Os caf fwrw ymlaen, os yw'r Aelod yn caniatáu i mi wneud, o ystyried fy mod yn sefyll ar y pwynt hwn yn y broses i gefnogi cynnig yr Aelod, ac i argymell i'r Cynulliad ein bod yn caniatáu i'r ddeddfwriaeth hon fwrw yn ei blaen ar y cam hwn. Dylwn ddweud, yng ngrŵp Plaid Cymru, y byddwn yn cael pleidlais rydd ar hyn, a bydd yr Aelodau, fel y teimlaf sy'n briodol ar gyfer deddfwriaeth meinciau cefn, yn penderfynu ar y rhinweddau yn eu barn hwy.
Credaf fod budd mewn egwyddor i'r hyn y mae Darren Millar yn ei gynnig. Mae gennym dystiolaeth o effeithiolrwydd ymgorfforiad rhannol Confensiwn y Cenhedloedd Unedig ar Hawliau'r Plentyn, ac mae'r Aelodau'n gwybod, fel y crybwyllodd y Gweinidog eisoes, am fy nghynnig ein bod yn ystyried cynnwys y confensiwn ar hawliau pobl anabl. Fel y dywedodd y Gweinidog, cytunaf yn llwyr â hi, a'r achos y mae Darren Millar wedi'i nodi, am y gwahaniaethu difrifol y mae pobl hŷn yn ei ddioddef mewn llawer o amgylchiadau, er bod rhaid inni hefyd gydnabod bod pobl hŷn weithiau ymysg y rhai mwyaf breintiedig a mwyaf llwyddiannus yn ariannol, felly nid yw'n wir bob amser. Ond cefais fy synnu, er enghraifft, wrth weld enbydrwydd rhai o'r gwasanaethau ar gyfer pobl hŷn ag anghenion iechyd meddwl, ac mae rhai o'r cartrefi gofal yr ymwelais â hwy wedi bod yn hollol waradwyddus. Dylwn ddweud hefyd fy mod wedi ymweld â rhai lleoliadau sydd wedi bod yn eithriadol, ac yn aml, nid y rhai mwyaf moethus yw'r rheini, nid y rhai mwyaf costus, ond y rhai lle y ceir gofal o'r ansawdd uchaf.
Felly, rwy'n cydnabod disgrifiad Darren Millar o rai o'r heriau a wynebwn wrth sicrhau bod pobl hŷn yn gallu arfer eu hawliau. A'r cwestiwn i'r Cynulliad hwn fydd: ai'r ddeddfwriaeth hon yw—neu ai'r ddeddfwriaeth hon fydd, oherwydd, nid ydym wedi ei gweld eto wrth gwrs—ai'r ddeddfwriaeth hon fydd y fwyaf effeithiol a'r fwyaf tebygol o lwyddo i fynd i'r afael â'r ystod eang honno o heriau y mae Darren Millar yn gywir yn ei nodi?
Rwyf wedi bod yn ddiolchgar iawn am y trafodaethau a gefais gyda Gweinidogion Cymru, gyda Julie James a gyda Jane Hutt, yn dilyn fy nghynnig mewn perthynas â'r confensiwn ar gyfer pobl anabl, ynghylch yr agenda ehangach y mae'r Gweinidog wedi'i gosod i ni heddiw, a diddorol iawn oedd darllen barn y Cwnsler Cyffredinol ynglŷn â hyn. Fel y dywedodd y Gweinidog yn gywir, nid ydym yn gwybod eto, os a phan fydd Brexit yn digwydd, sut y bydd hynny'n effeithio ar ddeddfwriaeth cydraddoldeb, oherwydd mae deddfwriaeth y DU, wrth gwrs, yn seiliedig ar apêl yn y pen draw i'r llysoedd Ewropeaidd, ac ni fyddai hynny'n wir mwyach. Felly, mae llawer o ffactorau anhysbys yn y sefyllfa hon. A buaswn yn siomedig iawn pe bai'r gwaith y mae'r Gweinidog wedi'i amlinellu yn cael ei lesteirio mewn unrhyw ffordd gan hynt y Bil arfaethedig hwn. Fodd bynnag, lle nad wyf yn cytuno â'r Gweinidog ar hyn o bryd yw nad wyf yn derbyn y byddai caniatáu i'r Bil hwn symud ymlaen i'r cam nesaf yn gorfod bwrw'r gwaith hwnnw oddi ar y cledrau o reidrwydd. Yn wir, gallwn ddychmygu sefyllfa lle y gallem fwrw ymlaen gyda'r ddeddfwriaeth hon, ac ar gam pellach, gallai'r Llywodraeth ddewis ymgymryd â hi a'i hymgorffori mewn gwaith pellach y maent yn ei wneud, fel y gwnaethpwyd, er enghraifft, pan gyflwynais Fesur hawliau gofalwyr mewn Cynulliad blaenorol, Mesur a gafodd ei fabwysiadu wedyn gan y Llywodraeth a'i roi mewn darn ehangach o waith yr oeddent yn ei wneud ar hyrwyddo hawliau gofalwyr.
Hoffwn ddweud yn glir iawn heddiw wrth y Llywodraeth nad wyf yn credu y gallwn ddefnyddio Deddf cenedlaethau'r dyfodol a llesiant, fel y mae yn awr, i symud yr agenda hon yn ei blaen. Ni ellir sicrhau iawn i'r unigolyn o dan y Ddeddf cenedlaethau'r dyfodol a llesiant, ac mae'r Comisiynydd ei hun yn ei gwneud yn glir na all wneud dim heblaw enwi a chodi cywilydd. A gwn fod Gweinidogion yn edrych ar yr anghysondeb rhwng pwerau ein comisiynwyr gwahanol, a hefyd yn edrych ar y ffordd y mae'r pwerau hynny wedi neu heb gael eu defnyddio. Ac unwaith eto, gwn y caiff hynny ei ymgorffori yn y gwaith y mae'r Gweinidog wedi'i amlinellu heddiw. Ond unwaith eto, ni welaf fod hwnnw'n rheswm ar hyn o bryd o reidrwydd i'r Cynulliad hwn beidio â chaniatáu i gynnig Darren Millar symud yn ei flaen.
Bydd yn ddiddorol iawn gweld manylion y Bil. Mae gennyf ddiddordeb mawr yn y mater a gododd Suzy Davies ynglŷn â gorfodadwyedd oherwydd fe wyddom—ac rwy'n edrych ar Jane Hutt, ein Gweinidog cydraddoldeb, sy'n gwybod yn iawn, oni bai fod gan unigolion fecanweithiau y gallant eu defnyddio, mecanweithiau nad ydynt yn dibynnu ar y Llywodraeth, nad ydynt yn dibynnu ar gomisiynydd annibynnol, ond y gallant eu defnyddio eu hunain i orfodi'r hawliau hynny, mae'n bosibl na chaiff yr hawliau hynny eu gorfodi yn y pen draw. Ac mae gennym brofiad o geisio gweithredu deddfwriaeth cydraddoldeb rhywiol sy'n gwneud hynny'n glir.
Rwy'n credu ein bod—gallwn weld o'r ddadl hon—yn unedig yn ein dymuniad yn y Siambr hon i fynd i'r afael â gwahaniaethu sydd, heb amheuaeth, yn wynebu pobl hŷn. Credaf y dylem aros i weld manylion y Bil hwn cyn dod i gasgliad pa un ai hon yw'r ffordd iawn ymlaen ai peidio. Ac ar sail hynny, rwy'n cymeradwyo cynnig Darren Millar i'r tŷ.
It is a privilege today to participate in what really could be a historic moment for our older people in Wales, and indeed our future generations. Whilst Wales is home to less than 1 per cent of the world’s population, the Bill brought forward today by my colleague, Darren Millar AM, could really be a global game changer. It would set an important precedent for other nations to follow—the need to embed a rights-based approach in the development, planning and delivery of public services that affect our older people.
Whilst I must acknowledge that Wales has been a pioneering nation for the interests of older people in many ways, such as with the creation of the world’s first older people’s commissioner role, in 2006, more can and should be done. We should all ask ourselves why we would not want to help forge a nation where there is a legal duty on Ministers and Welsh public authorities to consider the 18 United Nations principles for older persons. Personally, I see no possible excuse for hindering these, as the principles have the best interest and respect of older people at heart.
Just consider this: if this Bill did receive Royal Assent, it could almost immediately set about transforming the lives of over 800,000 older people in Wales, as, for example, it would go a long way in empowering older people to take charge of decisions that affect their lives, including the quality of their care. Now, the need for this was highlighted in the ‘A Place to Call Home?’ report, where a worrying reality was outlined—that too many older people living in care homes have an unacceptable quality of life. For example, it was found that older people see their personal identity and individuality rapidly diminish, and lose choice and control over their lives, once in a care home. They are often not receiving the level of care they have a right to expect, and the culture of care homes is often built upon a dependency model, which often fails to prevent physical decline, and does not allow people to sustain or regain their independence. Now, in my opinion, the Bill would help individuals and authorities tackle such devastating inequalities. I'm not saying all this—the report said that.
Additionally, for rural constituencies like mine, Aberconwy, which forms part of the county council with the highest proportion of over-65s in Wales, it is true that this Bill would achieve a great deal, through helping to protect the interests of elderly residents when changes to local facilities are being made. For example, over the last few months, I have been involved in a campaign to save bus services, which provide key lifelines to communities, and especially elderly residents. If this legislation was in place, I am confident that there would be greater consideration of, and greater weight placed on, the impact of changes on the older person—in my constituency, and, indeed, all of our constituencies and regions. The need for this is apparent, as the closure of 189 public toilets, one in six libraries, and 29 GP practices in Wales coincide with an extremely high rate of isolation and loneliness. Indeed, according to Age Cymru, 75,000 older people in Wales have reported always or often feeling lonely—a problem that is exacerbated by the withdrawal of local services. And this is happening under a Welsh Labour Government.
Undoubtedly, when considering that it is the older generation who make up the majority of Wales's army of volunteers, and that grandparents alone save Welsh parents £259 million a year, it is clear to me that this Bill is the least that we could give them back in return. So I do hope, Deputy Minister, that you have a change of heart, and, indeed, your backbenchers and your Cabinet colleagues. Because, do you know what, it is the same Chamber, but different legislation, on a different week. This is all because, I'm afraid, it is a Conservative-led piece of legislation. What hope does it give to backbenchers like myself? What hope does it give to new and aspiring Assembly candidates and Members that they can be picked in a ballot and then it gets as far as the floor of this Senedd, only to be turned down from pure tribalism and party politics?
Mae'n fraint heddiw i gymryd rhan yn yr hyn a allai fod yn foment hanesyddol i'n pobl hŷn yng Nghymru, ac yn wir i genedlaethau'r dyfodol. Er bod Cymru yn gartref i lai nag 1 y cant o boblogaeth y byd, gallai'r Bil a gyflwynwyd heddiw gan fy nghyd-Aelod, Darren Millar AC, fod yn newid ar lefel fyd-eang. Byddai'n gosod cynsail pwysig i wledydd eraill ei ddilyn—yr angen i ymgorffori dull yn seiliedig ar hawliau o ddatblygu, cynllunio a darparu gwasanaethau cyhoeddus sy'n effeithio ar ein pobl hŷn.
Er bod rhaid imi gydnabod bod Cymru wedi bod yn wlad arloesol o ran buddiannau pobl hŷn mewn nifer o ffyrdd, megis creu rôl comisiynydd pobl hŷn cyntaf y byd yn 2006, fe ellir ac fe ddylid gwneud mwy. Dylem i gyd ofyn i ni ein hunain pam na fyddem eisiau helpu i greu cenedl lle y ceir dyletswydd gyfreithiol ar Weinidogion ac awdurdodau cyhoeddus Cymru i ystyried 18 egwyddor y Cenhedloedd Unedig ar gyfer pobl hŷn. Yn bersonol, ni welaf unrhyw esgus posibl dros rwystro hyn, gan fod lles gorau a pharch at bobl hŷn yn ganolog i'r egwyddorion.
Ystyriwch hyn: pe bai'r Bil yn derbyn Cydsyniad Brenhinol, gallai fynd ati bron ar unwaith i drawsnewid bywydau dros 800,000 o bobl hŷn yng Nghymru, oherwydd byddai'n mynd yn bell i alluogi pobl hŷn i gael rheolaeth dros y penderfyniadau sy'n effeithio ar eu bywydau, er enghraifft, gan gynnwys ansawdd eu gofal. Nawr, amlygwyd yr angen am hyn yn yr adroddiad 'Lle i'w alw'n gartref?', lle y nodwyd un gwirionedd sy'n peri pryder—fod ansawdd bywyd gormod o bobl hŷn sy'n byw mewn cartrefi gofal yn annerbyniol. Er enghraifft, canfuwyd bod pobl hŷn yn gweld eu hunaniaeth bersonol a'u hunigoliaeth yn lleihau'n gyflym, a'u bod yn colli'r hawl i ddewis a chael rheolaeth dros eu bywydau pan fyddant yn mynd i gartref gofal. Yn aml nid ydynt yn cael y lefel o ofal y mae ganddynt hawl i'w disgwyl, ac mae diwylliant cartrefi gofal yn aml wedi'i adeiladu ar fodel dibyniaeth, sy'n aml yn methu atal dirywiad corfforol, ac nid yw'n caniatáu i bobl gadw neu adennill eu hannibyniaeth. Nawr, yn fy marn i, byddai'r Bil yn helpu unigolion ac awdurdodau i fynd i'r afael ag anghydraddoldebau dinistriol o'r fath. Nid fi sy'n dweud hyn i gyd—yr adroddiad a ddywedai hynny.
Yn ogystal, i etholaethau gwledig fel fy un i, Aberconwy, sy'n rhan o'r cyngor sir sydd â'r gyfran uchaf o bobl dros 65 oed yng Nghymru, mae'n wir y byddai'r Bil hwn yn cyflawni llawer iawn, drwy helpu i ddiogelu buddiannau trigolion oedrannus pan wneir newidiadau i gyfleusterau lleol. Er enghraifft, dros y misoedd diwethaf, rwyf wedi cymryd rhan mewn ymgyrch i achub gwasanaethau bysiau, sy'n achubiaeth allweddol i gymunedau, ac yn enwedig trigolion oedrannus. Pe bai'r ddeddfwriaeth hon ar waith, rwy'n hyderus y byddai mwy o ystyriaeth o effaith newidiadau ar y person hŷn a mwy o bwyslais yn cael ei roi ar yr effaith hon—yn fy etholaeth, ac yn etholaethau a rhanbarthau pob un ohonom yn wir. Mae'r angen am hyn yn amlwg, gan fod cau 189 o doiledau cyhoeddus, un o bob chwech llyfrgell, a 29 o bractisau meddyg teulu yng Nghymru yn cyd-daro â chyfradd uchel iawn o arwahanrwydd ac unigrwydd. Yn wir, yn ôl Age Cymru, mae 75,000 o bobl hŷn yng Nghymru wedi dweud eu bod bob amser neu'n aml yn teimlo'n unig—problem a waethygir wrth i wasanaethau lleol gael eu tynnu'n ôl. Ac mae hyn yn digwydd o dan Lywodraeth Lafur Cymru.
Yn sicr, wrth ystyried mai'r genhedlaeth hŷn sy'n ffurfio'r rhan fwyaf o fyddin Cymru o wirfoddolwyr, a bod neiniau a theidiau yn unig yn arbed £259 miliwn y flwyddyn i rieni Cymru, mae'n amlwg i mi mai'r Bil hwn yw'r peth lleiaf y gallwn ei roi'n ôl iddynt. Felly rwy'n gobeithio, Ddirprwy Weinidog, eich bod yn newid eich meddwl, ac Aelodau eich meinciau cefn a'ch cyd-Aelodau o'r Cabinet yn wir. Oherwydd, wyddoch chi beth, yr un Siambr yw hi, ond deddfwriaeth wahanol, ar wythnos wahanol. Rwy'n ofni mai'r rheswm am hyn yw mai deddfwriaeth dan arweiniad y Ceidwadwyr yw hi. Pa obaith y mae'n ei roi i Aelodau'r meinciau cefn fel fi? Pa obaith y mae'n ei roi i Aelodau ac ymgeiswyr newydd i'r Cynulliad fod modd iddynt gael eu dewis mewn pleidlais a'i fod yn cyrraedd llawr y Siambr hon, ddim ond i gael ei wrthod oherwydd teyrngarwch llwythol pur a gwleidyddiaeth plaid?
Well, I feel obviously, given my age, I should declare an interest at this point. [Laughter.] While our rights should not change as we grow older, older people often face negative attitudes and age discrimination, in particular, in access to healthcare, employment, goods and services, information and education. Older people also face increasing barriers to their participation, become more dependent on others and lose some, or all, of their personal autonomy. These threats to their dignity can make them more susceptible to neglect, abuse and violation of their rights.
It is my belief that this proposed Bill would ensure the rights of older people are strengthened. it would also safeguard the principle that, just as older people are at the centre of many of our families, they will also be at the forefront of our thinking when it comes to key issues, such as access to healthcare, financial inclusion and public services.
We often hear news stories about how we have an ageing population. There are around 800,000 older people in Wales, and the number of people aged 65 and over is projected to increase by 232,000, that's 36 per cent, by 2041. Last week, we debated the cost of paying for social care, and it is, of course, important that we plan for the future. But we must do so in a way that promotes ageing well and with a dignified and respectful conversation.
Although social care is a major factor when it comes to discussing how we plan for the future, there are many other considerations. In my region, older people have told me how they are adversely affected by library and day care centre cuts or changes to post office services. There are heart-breaking cases, of course, of older people who have fallen victim to scams. I, like other Members, will have also heard from constituents who have difficulty in accessing GP services. I believe this Bill would go a long way in helping to promote the understanding of older people's rights and alleviating some of these very real difficulties.
Ensuring that older people are not disadvantaged simply by reason of age is one of the greatest challenges of modern times. That challenge is to ensure that all of our older people are able to live fulfilling lives, and that they are not seen as a burden, but recognised for the contribution they have made throughout their lives to the economy and community as a whole, and also to acknowledge that many of them still contribute to the society in many ways, often being the backbone of many charities and social activities.
It is therefore incumbent on statutory authorities to ensure that the core mainstream services are available to older residents in the same way that they are for other people. For that reason, we in UKIP will be supporting the Bill today, and we encourage all sides of the Chamber to do likewise. If children are protected in law, why not the other most vulnerable group, the old?
Wel, yn amlwg, o ystyried fy oedran, rwy'n teimlo y dylwn ddatgan buddiant ar y pwynt hwn. [Chwerthin.] Er na ddylai ein hawliau newid wrth i ni fynd yn hŷn, mae pobl hŷn yn aml yn wynebu agweddau negyddol a gwahaniaethu ar sail oedran, yn arbennig, mewn perthynas â mynediad at ofal iechyd, cyflogaeth, nwyddau a gwasanaethau, gwybodaeth ac addysg. Mae pobl hŷn hefyd yn wynebu rhwystrau cynyddol i gyfranogi, yn dod yn fwy dibynnol ar eraill ac yn colli peth, neu'r cyfan, o'u hannibyniaeth bersonol. Gall y bygythiadau hyn i'w hurddas eu gwneud yn fwy tebygol o ddioddef esgeulustod, cam-drin a cholli hawliau.
Credaf y byddai'r Bil arfaethedig hwn yn sicrhau bod hawliau pobl hŷn yn cael eu cryfhau. Byddai hefyd yn diogelu'r egwyddor, yn yr un modd ag y mae pobl hŷn yn ganolog i lawer o'n teuluoedd, y byddant hefyd yn flaenllaw yn ein meddyliau wrth ystyried materion allweddol, megis mynediad at ofal iechyd, cynhwysiant ariannol a gwasanaethau cyhoeddus.
Yn aml, clywn straeon newyddion ynglŷn â sut y mae gennym boblogaeth sy'n heneiddio. Mae tua 800,000 o bobl hŷn yng Nghymru, a rhagwelir cynnydd o 232,000 yn nifer y bobl 65 oed a hŷn, sef 36 y cant, erbyn 2041. Yr wythnos diwethaf, cawsom ddadl ar y gost o dalu am ofal cymdeithasol, ac wrth gwrs, mae'n bwysig inni gynllunio ar gyfer y dyfodol. Ond rhaid inni wneud hynny mewn ffordd sy'n hyrwyddo heneiddio'n dda a thrwy drafodaeth urddasol a pharchus.
Er bod gofal cymdeithasol yn ffactor o bwys wrth drafod sut y cynlluniwn ar gyfer y dyfodol, ceir llawer o ystyriaethau eraill. Yn fy rhanbarth i, mae pobl hŷn wedi dweud wrthyf sut yr effeithir yn niweidiol arnynt gan doriadau i wasanaethau llyfrgell a gofal dydd neu newidiadau i wasanaethau swyddfeydd post. Cafwyd achosion torcalonnus, wrth gwrs, o bobl hŷn yn dioddef sgamiau. Fel yr Aelodau eraill, rwyf innau hefyd wedi clywed gan etholwyr sy'n cael trafferth i gael gafael ar wasanaethau meddygon teulu. Credaf y byddai'r Bil hwn yn mynd yn bell i helpu i hyrwyddo dealltwriaeth o hawliau pobl hŷn a lleddfu anawsterau real iawn o'r fath.
Mae sicrhau nad yw pobl hŷn dan anfantais oherwydd eu hoedran yn un o heriau mwyaf y cyfnod modern. Yr her honno yw sicrhau bod pob un o'n pobl hŷn yn gallu byw bywydau cyflawn, ac nad ydynt yn cael eu gweld fel baich, ond yn hytrach eu bod yn cael eu cydnabod am y cyfraniad a wnaethant ar hyd eu bywydau i'r economi a'r gymuned yn gyffredinol, a hefyd i gydnabod bod llawer ohonynt yn dal i gyfrannu at y fywyd y gymdeithas mewn nifer o ffyrdd, ac yn aml eu bod yn asgwrn cefn i lawer o elusennau a gweithgareddau cymdeithasol.
Felly, mae'n ddyletswydd ar awdurdodau statudol i sicrhau bod y gwasanaethau craidd a phrif ffrwd ar gael i drigolion hŷn yn yr un modd ag y maent i bobl eraill. Am y rheswm hwnnw, byddwn ni yn UKIP yn cefnogi'r Bil heddiw, ac rydym yn annog pob ochr i'r Siambr i wneud yr un peth. Os caiff plant eu hamddiffyn yn y gyfraith, pam nad y grŵp arall hwnnw sy'n fwyaf agored i niwed, yr henoed?
I would like to thank Darren for bringing forward his proposal for an older people’s rights Bill. I fully support the intention behind Darren’s proposals, and will do all I can to help ensure this Bill becomes an Act of this Assembly. I'm passionate about tackling loneliness and isolation and I have spoken in this Chamber many times on the subject. Protecting the rights of older people will go a long way in addressing the core causes of isolation in our older population.
Unfortunately, ageism still exists in our society, and has become institutionalised in many aspects. I have received several calls from people over the age of 75 whose car insurance has doubled or even tripled simply because of their age, not because of them being unsafe to drive or having accidents, but just because of their age—and if this isn't ageism, nothing is—effectively pricing them out of the market, denying them their freedom and contributing to increased loneliness and isolation. It’s not just the insurance companies that display institutionalised ageism. Services from banks to utility companies are increasingly moving online, further isolating a generation for whom computers were the size of large buildings and only owned by Governments and universities.
Unfortunately, digital exclusion is highest in the over-65s and its effects are exacerbated by Governments moving services online, by banks closing and utility companies going paperless. It is a sad fact that in twenty-first century Wales, people are treated differently because they're older.
Ageism has been fuelled in recent years with discussion over the future of pensions and social care. This has sometimes been discussed insensitively and this has had the consequence of sometimes pitting generations against each other, blaming the over-65s for the tribulations of those born at the tail end of the twentieth century.
The older generations have paid tax and national insurance for over 50 years; they have more than paid for their care and welfare during their retirement. And it was up to successive Governments to plan and make provisions for social care and pensions.
It is clear to me that we need to enshrine in law the rights of older people in Wales, to underline the UN principles for older persons, which promote independence, participation, care, self-fulfilment and, importantly, dignity. These principles should underpin the delivery of services, both public and private, to older people in Wales. Placing a duty on Welsh Ministers to have due regard for the UN principles will have a dramatic impact on older people’s rights in Wales.
A rights-based approach to public services is the right approach. So, I welcome Darren’s proposals for this Bill and support him wholeheartedly, and I urge Members from across this Chamber to support this motion—a motion that has overwhelming support from the public and the third sector. So, let us all work together, across this Chamber, to enshrine, in law, the rights of older people in Wales. Diolch yn fawr.
Hoffwn ddiolch i Darren am gyflwyno'i gynnig ar gyfer Bil ar hawliau pobl hŷn. Rwy'n cefnogi'r bwriad sy'n sail i gynigion Darren yn llawn, ac fe wnaf bopeth a allaf i helpu i sicrhau bod y Bil hwn yn dod yn Ddeddf y Cynulliad hwn. Rwy'n teimlo'n angerddol ynglŷn â threchu unigrwydd ac arwahanrwydd ac rwyf wedi siarad yn y Siambr hon droeon ar y pwnc. Bydd diogelu hawliau pobl hŷn yn mynd yn bell i ymdrin ag achosion craidd arwahanrwydd yn ein poblogaeth hŷn.
Yn anffodus, mae rhagfarn ar sail oedran yn dal i fodoli yn ein cymdeithas, ac mae'n sefydliadol mewn llawer o ffyrdd. Cefais nifer o alwadau ffôn gan bobl dros 75 oed yr oedd eu hyswiriant car wedi dyblu neu dreblu hyd yn oed oherwydd eu hoedran yn unig, nid oherwydd nad oedd yn ddiogel iddynt yrru neu ar ôl cael damweiniau, ond oherwydd eu hoedran yn unig—ac os nad yw hynny'n wahaniaethu ar sail oedran, nid oes dim arall—gan eu prisio allan o'r farchnad, i bob pwrpas, eu hamddifadu o'u rhyddid a chyfrannu at gynyddu unigrwydd ac arwahanrwydd. Nid y cwmnïau yswiriant yn unig sy'n arddangos rhagfarn sefydliadol. Mae gwasanaethau o fanciau i gwmnïau cyfleustodau yn symud fwyfwy ar-lein, gan ynysu cenhedlaeth a ystyriai gyfrifiaduron fel pethau maint adeiladau mawr ac yn eiddo i lywodraethau a phrifysgolion yn unig.
Yn anffodus, mae lefelau allgáu digidol ar eu huchaf ymhlith pobl dros 65 oed a gwaethygir ei effeithiau gan Lywodraethau'n symud gwasanaethau ar-lein, gan fanciau'n cau a chwmnïau cyfleustodau'n mynd yn ddi-bapur. Mae'n ffaith drist yng Nghymru'r unfed ganrif ar hugain fod pobl yn cael eu trin yn wahanol oherwydd eu bod yn hŷn.
Cryfhawyd rhagfarn ar sail oedran yn y blynyddoedd diwethaf gan y drafodaeth ynglŷn â dyfodol pensiynau a gofal cymdeithasol. Weithiau trafodwyd hyn yn ansensitif gan greu gwrthdaro rhwng y cenedlaethau a rhoi'r bai ar y rhai dros 65 oed am galedi'r rhai a anwyd ar ddiwedd yr ugeinfed ganrif.
Mae'r cenedlaethau hŷn wedi talu treth ac yswiriant gwladol am dros 50 mlynedd; maent wedi mwy na thalu am eu gofal a'u lles yn ystod eu hymddeoliad. A mater i Lywodraethau olynol oedd cynllunio a darparu ar gyfer gofal cymdeithasol a phensiynau.
Mae'n amlwg i mi fod angen inni ymgorffori hawliau pobl hŷn yng Nghymru mewn cyfraith er mwyn tanlinellu egwyddorion y Cenhedloedd Unedig ar gyfer pobl hŷn, sy'n hyrwyddo annibyniaeth, cyfranogiad, gofal, hunangyflawniad ac yn bwysig iawn, urddas. Dylai'r egwyddorion hyn fod yn sail i ddarparu gwasanaethau cyhoeddus a phreifat i bobl hŷn yng Nghymru. Bydd gosod dyletswydd ar Weinidogion Cymru i roi sylw dyledus i egwyddorion y Cenhedloedd Unedig yn cael effaith ddramatig ar hawliau pobl hŷn yng Nghymru.
Dull o weithredu gwasanaethau cyhoeddus sy'n seiliedig ar hawliau yw'r dull cywir. Felly, rwy'n croesawu argymhellion Darren ar gyfer y Bil hwn ac yn ei gefnogi'n llwyr, ac rwy'n annog Aelodau o bob rhan o'r Siambr i gefnogi'r cynnig hwn, cynnig sy'n ennyn cefnogaeth aruthrol o blith y cyhoedd a'r trydydd sector. Felly, gadewch i bawb ohonom weithio gyda'n gilydd, ar draws y Siambr hon i ymgorffori hawliau pobl hŷn yng Nghymru yn y gyfraith. Diolch yn fawr.
Like Huw Irranca, I'd very much like to welcome Julie Morgan to the post of Deputy Minister because I'm sure that your huge experience will bring to bear excellence in this particular portfolio.
I suppose I need to declare an interest as well: as a grandmother twice over, I have to probably be in the category of an older person, and we all face that music in due course. I think some of the statistics that Darren Millar has produced are, of course, very sobering. The fact that 75,000 people feel lonely most of the time is a wake-up call for all of us. But I really do wonder how this legislation would address that. It's something we all need to address, but I really don't see how legislation is going to do it.
I was concerned that you didn't mention the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 in your introduction. And that was even before Helen Mary had said she didn't see that it had anything to do with it. I am concerned—
Fel Huw Irranca, hoffwn yn fawr iawn groesawu Julie Morgan i swydd y Dirprwy Weinidog, oherwydd rwy'n siŵr y bydd eich profiad anferth yn sicrhau rhagoriaeth yn y portffolio penodol hwn.
Mae'n debyg fod angen imi ddatgan buddiant yn ogystal: fel mam-gu ddwywaith drosodd, rhaid fy mod yng nghategori person hŷn yn ôl pob tebyg, ac mae pawb ohonom yn wynebu hynny yn ein tro. Credaf fod rhai o'r ystadegau a gynhyrchwyd gan Darren Millar, wrth gwrs, yn ddigalon iawn. Mae'r ffaith bod 75,000 o bobl yn teimlo'n unig y rhan fwyaf o'r amser yn ysgytwad i bawb ohonom. Ond rwy'n meddwl tybed sut y byddai'r ddeddfwriaeth hon yn mynd i'r afael â hynny. Mae'n rhywbeth y mae'n rhaid i bawb ohonom roi sylw iddo, ond nid wyf yn gweld sut y mae deddfwriaeth yn mynd i wneud hynny.
Roeddwn yn pryderu na sonioch chi am Ddeddf Llesiant Cenedlaethau'r Dyfodol (Cymru) 2015 yn eich cyflwyniad. Ac roedd hynny cyn i Helen Mary ddweud nad oedd hi'n gweld fod gan y Ddeddf unrhyw beth i'w wneud â'r mater. Rwy'n pryderu—
Will you give way?
A wnewch chi ildio?
No. I think I'm in the middle of saying something at the moment. I'll take it in a second, yes.
I'm concerned that we're in the process of potentially lopping off bits of this very holistic approach to the way we determine our priorities, which was a path-breaking piece of legislation and that, potentially, this could undermine that holistic approach.
So, I'm happy to take the intervention.
Na wnaf. Rwy'n credu fy mod ar ganol dweud rhywbeth ar y foment. Fe'i cymeraf mewn eiliad, gwnaf.
Rwy'n pryderu ein bod yn y broses o bosibl o dorri darnau oddi ar y dull cyfannol iawn a oedd gennym o benderfynu ar ein blaenoriaethau, deddfwriaeth a oedd yn arloesol ac o bosibl, gallai hyn danseilio'r dull cyfannol hwnnw.
Felly, rwy'n hapus i dderbyn yr ymyriad.
Just to clarify, Jenny Rathbone, for you benefit, I did not say that it had nothing to do with it. What I said was that the well-being of future generations Act did not give individuals enforceable rights and, therefore, it was not the appropriate vehicle to deal with all the issues that Darren Millar raised. That is not to say that it's not a valuable piece of legislation that can do other very useful jobs.
I egluro, Jenny Rathbone, er eich budd, ni ddywedais nad oedd ganddi ddim i'w wneud â'r peth. Yr hyn a ddywedais oedd nad oedd Deddf llesiant cenedlaethau'r dyfodol yn rhoi hawliau gorfodadwy i unigolion ac felly, nid dyna oedd y cyfrwng priodol i ymdrin â'r holl faterion a godwyd gan Darren Millar. Nid yw hynny'n golygu nad yw'n ddarn gwerthfawr o ddeddfwriaeth a all wneud pethau eraill defnyddiol iawn.
Thank you, Helen Mary, for reminding me of what you actually said, because what I was going to say in response to that is that older people already have access to complain to the older person's commissioner if they don't think that they're being treated fairly, as well as all the other ways in which we can all complain. I think I have some concerns that we're focusing on one particular group—one particular group that hasn't done as badly out of the austerity programme since 2010 as other people. The people who have most suffered from the austerity programme are children, who have no voice and very, very little power. So, I'm concerned about the balance of our approach, and as Darren Millar says, he thinks it would cost £1.75 million to implement, and I wonder if there aren't better ways of reshaping services to better meet people's needs than simply having new legislation. It's action we need, not words. If we need to put more money into older people's services, we're going to have to find ways of generating it. And I just wondered why the Holtham proposals are arguing that, if we're going to have social care free at the point of need, and free at the point of delivery, we are going to have to find another mechanism for putting more money into the system, because at the moment we simply don't pay people enough for doing the very important job they're doing.
Unlike Helen Mary Jones, I have seen very good practice in my constituency. I've also seen examples of poor practice, and these have been dealt with by CIW, and they've been closed down as a result. That's how it should be. But I think that it's a disgrace that we don't pay people more, but I think that we need to address why we aren't putting more money into the system as a society to ensure that older people have an excellent old age. Some people will choose to go into a residential nursing home, or a residential home, but others will want to stay in their own home, and that is where I would like to see a great deal more focus.
So, in terms of what Caroline was saying about car insurance companies discriminating against older people—you know, these are private companies. They will endeavour to charge the maximum that they can get away with, and people need to challenge them and try and go elsewhere. Older people don't all come in the same shapes and sizes. Some older people are perfectly capable of arguing their case, just as some younger people are very inadequate at arguing their case. I'll take the intervention—
Diolch i chi, Helen Mary, am fy atgoffa o'r hyn a ddywedoch chi mewn gwirionedd, gan fy mod yn mynd i ddweud mewn ymateb i hynny fod gan bobl hŷn ffordd eisoes o gwyno i'r comisiynydd pobl hŷn os nad ydynt yn credu eu bod yn cael eu trin yn deg, yn ogystal â'r holl ffyrdd eraill y gall pawb ohonom gwyno. Credaf fod gennyf bryderon ein bod yn canolbwyntio ar un grŵp penodol—un grŵp arbennig nad yw wedi gwneud mor wael â phobl eraill yn sgil y rhaglen gyni ers 2010. Y bobl sydd wedi dioddef fwyaf o'r rhaglen gyni yw plant, nad oes ganddynt unrhyw lais a fawr iawn o bŵer. Felly, rwy'n pryderu am gydbwysedd ein dull o weithredu, ac fel y dywed Darren Millar, mae'n credu y byddai'n costio £1.75 miliwn i'w weithredu, ac rwy'n meddwl tybed onid oes ffyrdd gwell o ailffurfio gwasanaethau i ddiwallu anghenion pobl yn well na chael deddfwriaeth newydd. Gweithredu sydd ei angen arnom, nid geiriau. Os bydd angen inni roi mwy o arian tuag at wasanaethau pobl hŷn, rydym yn mynd i orfod canfod ffyrdd o'i gynhyrchu. A pham fod cynigion Holtham yn dadlau, os ydym yn mynd i gael gofal cymdeithasol am ddim lle y mae ei angen, ac am ddim lle y caiff ei ddarparu, bydd yn rhaid inni ddod o hyd i fecanwaith arall ar gyfer rhoi mwy o arian yn y system, oherwydd ar hyn o bryd nid ydym yn talu digon i bobl am wneud y gwaith pwysig iawn y maent yn ei wneud.
Yn wahanol i Helen Mary Jones, rwyf wedi gweld arferion da iawn yn fy etholaeth. Rwyf hefyd wedi gweld enghreifftiau o arferion gwael, ac ymdriniwyd â'r rheini gan Arolygiaeth Gofal Cymru, ac maent wedi cael eu cau o ganlyniad. Dyna sut y dylai fod. Ond credaf ei bod yn warth nad ydym yn talu mwy i bobl, ac rwy'n credu bod angen inni fynd i'r afael â pham nad ydym yn rhoi mwy o arian yn y system fel cymdeithas i sicrhau bod pobl hŷn yn cael henaint rhagorol. Bydd rhai pobl yn dewis mynd i gartref nyrsio preswyl, neu gartref preswyl, ond bydd eraill yn dymuno aros yn eu cartref eu hunain, a dyna lle yr hoffwn weld llawer iawn mwy o ffocws.
Felly, o ran yr hyn roedd Caroline yn ei ddweud ynglŷn â chwmnïau yswiriant car yn gwahaniaethu yn erbyn pobl hŷn—wyddoch chi, cwmnïau preifat yw'r rhain. Byddant yn ymdrechu i godi'r uchafswm y gallant lwyddo i'w gael, ac mae angen i bobl eu herio a cheisio mynd i rywle arall. Nid yw pob person hŷn yr un fath. Mae rhai pobl hŷn yn berffaith abl i ddadlau eu hachos, fel y mae rhai pobl iau yn methu dadlau eu hachos yn dda. Fe gymeraf ymyriad—
Daeth y Dirprwy Lywydd (Ann Jones) i’r Gadair.
The Deputy Presiding Officer (Ann Jones) took the Chair.
Well, you're out of time, actually, so if you'd like to wind up your speech, then we'll move on.
Wel, mae eich amser wedi dod i ben, fel mae'n digwydd, felly os hoffech chi ddirwyn eich araith i ben, ac yna fe symudwn ymlaen.
I'd like to wind up and say that I'm concerned about this piecemeal approach to human rights, and I'd like to see a much broader approach being taken. We're probably going to have to legislate, if we leave the European Court of Human Rights, and that seems to me a much better approach.
Hoffwn ddirwyn i ben a dweud fy mod yn pryderu am y dull tameidiog hwn o weithredu hawliau dynol, a hoffwn weld dull llawer ehangach yn cael ei arfer. Rydym yn mynd i orfod deddfu yn ôl pob tebyg, os ydym yn gadael Llys Hawliau Dynol Ewrop, ac ymddengys i mi fod hwnnw'n ddull llawer gwell.
Thank you. Can I now call Darren Millar to reply to the debate?
Diolch. A gaf fi alw yn awr ar Darren Millar i ymateb i'r ddadl?
Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I've listened very carefully to what people have been saying, and I'm very grateful for the support that I've had, certainly on the opposition benches, to the proposal that I want to take forward. I'm obviously very disappointed that the Government doesn't see eye to eye with me in this regard, about this being an appropriate way to take forward the rights-based agenda for older people. The Government, of course, has made reference to a piecemeal approach. Well, we have a piecemeal approach now, which was started by the Government in respect of children and young people's rights, and that is something that we all felt it was necessary to address. And as David Rowlands quite rightly said, young people have their rights protected in Welsh law and older people deserve to have theirs protected too.
Diolch ichi, Ddirprwy Lywydd. Rwyf wedi gwrando'n ofalus iawn ar yr hyn y mae pobl wedi bod yn ei ddweud, ac rwy'n ddiolchgar iawn am y gefnogaeth a gefais, yn sicr ar feinciau'r wrthblaid, i'r cynnig rwyf am fwrw ymlaen ag ef. Yn amlwg, rwy'n siomedig iawn fod y Llywodraeth yn anghydweld â mi yn hyn o beth, ynglŷn â bod hon yn ffordd briodol o fwrw ymlaen â'r agenda sy'n seiliedig ar hawliau ar gyfer pobl hŷn. Wrth gwrs, mae'r Llywodraeth wedi cyfeirio at ddull tameidiog o weithredu. Wel, dull tameidiog sydd gennym yn awr, un a ddechreuwyd gan y Llywodraeth mewn perthynas â hawliau plant a phobl ifanc, ac mae hynny'n rhywbeth roedd pawb ohonom yn teimlo bod angen mynd i'r afael ag ef. Ac fel y dywedodd David Rowlands yn hollol gywir, mae hawliau pobl ifanc wedi eu diogelu yng nghyfraith Cymru, ac mae pobl hŷn yn haeddu cael eu hawliau hwy wedi'u diogelu hefyd.
Will the Member give way?
A wnaiff yr Aelod ildio?
Yes, very briefly.
Gwnaf, yn fyr iawn.
He says it's piecemeal and gives one example, but I think another example was inferred just now in that insurance companies—our older people will just rely on competition. You can't have an insurance company discriminate on the basis of gender. Why should they be able to do it on the basis of age?
Dywed ei fod yn dameidiog ac mae'n rhoi un enghraifft, ond credaf fod enghraifft arall wedi'i hawgrymu yn awr yn y ffaith bod cwmnïau yswiriant—bydd ein pobl hŷn yn dibynnu ar gystadleuaeth. Ni allwch gael cwmni yswiriant yn gwahaniaethu ar sail rhyw. Pam y dylent allu gwneud hynny ar sail oedran?
It's absolutely right. Any discrimination on the grounds of age is something that shouldn't be tolerated, but, unfortunately, too many people are getting away with it. I think there will be a perception that there may be some political tribalism going on here. I can't guarantee that that's what the perception will be, but I think some people will perceive it as that. It's certainly been implied, I think, by the fact that one party is taking a different approach than the others. And I was very supportive of the need to do things on the wider rights agenda, which is why I've accepted the invitation to be with you at the meeting on 6 February, although we know that that was a very hastily arranged meeting. The older people's commissioner only received an invitation yesterday, as did I, in an attempt to thwart this particular proposal from making progress in this Chamber. We know that that is the case, so I am a little bit disappointed that there have been these last-minute attempts to nudge people in a direction against the Bill.
Jenny Rathbone, you made an interesting speech, but you didn't stick to the theme here. You were talking about the whole paying-for-care agenda and the Holtham agenda, but of course I'm focused here purely on rights: making sure that those rights are accessible to older people; that they can realise their rights; and that they can have some redress to make sure that their rights are protected, promoted and respected by everybody in Wales, particularly in our public services. That isn't the case at the moment. All too often, older people are not given the opportunity to be consulted, for example, on huge things going on in their local communities. Usually, it's purely via web portals that people have the opportunity to look at consultation documents and respond to them. So, I think that there is a concern in that regard.
As Huw Irranca-Davies quite rightly pointed out—he spent time holding the older people's brief, and I wish Julie Morgan all the very best in taking this on—he knows, as well as I do, that when you go around speaking to older people, they are not aware of what their rights are. Young people are because of the success of the Rights of Children and Young Persons (Wales) Measure 2011, but older people have no idea. So, it's all very well saying they've got an older people's commissioner who can help them and deal with their complaints, but if they don't know what their entitlements are, they can't realise those entitlements and make a complaint when they feel that they're being breached. I'll take the intervention from Huw Irranca.
Mae'n hollol gywir. Mae unrhyw wahaniaethu ar sail oedran yn rhywbeth na ddylem ei oddef, ond yn anffodus, mae gormod o bobl yn cael rhwydd hynt i wneud hynny. Credaf y bydd canfyddiad y gall fod peth teyrngarwch llwythol gwleidyddol ar waith yma. Ni allaf warantu mai dyna fydd y canfyddiad, ond credaf y bydd rhai pobl yn ei weld felly. Dyna sy'n cael ei awgrymu yn sicr, rwy'n credu, gan y ffaith bod un blaid ag ymagwedd wahanol i'r lleill. Ac roeddwn yn gefnogol iawn i'r angen i wneud pethau ar yr agenda hawliau ehangach, a dyna pam y derbyniais y gwahoddiad i fod gyda chi yn y cyfarfod ar 6 Chwefror, er y gwyddom fod hwnnw'n gyfarfod a drefnwyd yn frysiog iawn. Ddoe ddiwethaf y cafodd y comisiynydd pobl hŷn wahoddiad, fel minnau, mewn ymgais i rwystro'r cynnig penodol hwn rhag gwneud cynnydd yn y Siambr. Rydym yn gwybod bod hynny'n wir, felly rwy'n siomedig braidd ynglŷn â'r ymdrechion munud olaf hyn i droi pobl yn erbyn y Bil.
Jenny Rathbone, fe wnaethoch araith ddiddorol, ond ni wnaethoch lynu wrth y thema yma. Roeddech yn sôn am yr holl agenda talu am ofal ac agenda Holtham, ond wrth gwrs rwy'n canolbwyntio'n gyfan gwbl yma ar hawliau: gwneud yn siŵr fod yr hawliau hynny'n hygyrch i bobl hŷn; y gallant wireddu eu hawliau; ac y gallant sicrhau rhywfaint o iawn i wneud yn siŵr fod eu hawliau'n cael eu diogelu, eu hyrwyddo a'u parchu gan bawb yng Nghymru, yn enwedig yn ein gwasanaethau cyhoeddus. Nid yw hynny'n digwydd ar hyn o bryd. Yn rhy aml, ni roddir cyfle i ymgynghori â phobl hŷn ar y pethau mawr sy'n digwydd yn eu cymunedau lleol, er enghraifft. Fel arfer, drwy byrth ar y we yn unig y bydd cyfle i bobl edrych ar ddogfennau ymgynghori ac ymateb iddynt. Felly, credaf fod yna bryder yn y cyswllt hwnnw.
Fel y dywedodd Huw Irranca-Davies yn gwbl briodol—treuliodd amser yng ngofal y briff pobl hŷn, ac rwy'n dymuno'r gorau i Julie Morgan am ymgymryd â hyn—mae'n gwybod cystal â minnau pan ewch o gwmpas i siarad â phobl hŷn, nad ydynt yn ymwybodol beth yw eu hawliau. Mae pobl ifanc yn gwybod oherwydd llwyddiant Mesur Hawliau Plant a Phobl Ifanc (Cymru) 2011, ond nid oes gan bobl hŷn unrhyw syniad. Felly, mae'n iawn dweud bod ganddynt gomisiynydd pobl hŷn a all eu helpu i ymdrin â'u cwynion, ond os nad ydynt yn gwybod beth yw eu hawliau, ni allant wireddu'r hawliau hynny a gwneud cwyn pan fyddant yn teimlo eu bod yn cael eu tramgwyddo. Fe gymeraf ymyriad gan Huw Irranca.
I thank you, Darren, for taking the intervention. You make a very good point, and I agree with that absolutely. We don't know how the vote is going to go today, but could I ask him: if the vote was going—. If his proposal for a Bill isn't taken forward—and based on the offer to take forward not only what is within the spirit and the intent and the detail of his proposal, but also the wider rights agenda—would he, I ask in all reasonableness, be willing then to work with the Minister, with the Government, in order to accomplish that? Because I do actually see the bigger prize as well here. Whether it's on disabled persons' rights, older people's rights, children's rights—there's a huge agenda here going forward. I think that the Government probably—and the Minister has signalled—would welcome your involvement in taking that forward: a different means to the same ends.
Diolch, Darren, am gymryd yr ymyriad. Rydych yn gwneud pwynt da iawn, ac rwy'n cytuno'n llwyr â hynny. Nid ydym yn gwybod sut y mae'r bleidlais yn mynd i fynd heddiw, ond a gaf fi ofyn iddo: pe bai'r bleidlais yn mynd—. Os na fwrir ymlaen â'i gynnig ar gyfer Bil—ac yn seiliedig ar y cynnig i ddatblygu nid yn unig yr hyn sydd o fewn ysbryd a bwriad a manylion ei gynnig, ond hefyd yr agenda hawliau ehangach—a fyddai'n barod, ac rwy'n gofyn hyn yn hollol resymol, yn fodlon gweithio gyda'r Gweinidog wedyn, gyda'r Llywodraeth, ar y gwaith o'i gyflawni? Oherwydd mewn gwirionedd rwy'n gweld y wobr fwy yma hefyd. Pa un a yw'n hawliau pobl anabl, hawliau pobl hŷn, hawliau plant—mae agenda enfawr yma ar gyfer y dyfodol. Credaf y byddai'r Llywodraeth yn ôl pob tebyg—ac mae'r Gweinidog wedi dynodi hyn—yn croesawu eich cyfranogiad wrth fwrw ymlaen â hynny: ffordd wahanol at yr un nod.
I've already given a commitment to engage with the Government on that agenda. I'm a member of the cross-party group on human rights. I'm committed to human rights, and I want to further their cause all the way. I think that my concern about the approach being taken by the Government is that it's in its very early stages—it's embryonic. There's absolutely no hope whatsoever of us getting something onto the statute book by the end of this Assembly, whereas with my older people's Bill, there is. There's a lot of groundwork being done within Government, by the older people's commissioner and others on this agenda. We have the opportunity to get this through this Assembly by December 2020. That's the indication that I've had from the clerks supporting me with this Bill. Doing this does not preclude doing the other. There's still the opportunity to take a twin-track approach. We're always going to have unique arrangements for children and older people, by virtue of the fact that we have commissioners for those particular rights-based agendas. We don't for anything else in terms of human rights, but we do for children and older people. That's why I'm advocating this approach, and I very much hope that there will be some people on those Labour benches, on the Government benches, that will just think again before rejecting this proposal today.
Rwyf eisoes wedi rhoi ymrwymiad i ymwneud â'r Llywodraeth ar yr agenda honno. Rwy'n aelod o'r grŵp trawsbleidiol ar hawliau dynol. Rwy'n ymrwymedig i hawliau dynol, ac mae arnaf eisiau eu hyrwyddo yr holl ffordd. Credaf mai'r hyn sy'n fy mhryderu ynglŷn â dull y Llywodraeth yw ei fod yn ei ddyddiau cynnar iawn—mae'n embryonig. Nid oes unrhyw obaith o gwbl y cawn ni rywbeth ar y llyfr statud erbyn diwedd y Cynulliad hwn, ond gyda fy Mil pobl hŷn, mae hynny'n bosibl. Gwneir llawer o waith sylfaenol o fewn y Llywodraeth, gan y comisiynydd pobl hŷn ac eraill ar yr agenda hon. Mae gennym gyfle i lywio hyn drwy'r Cynulliad erbyn mis Rhagfyr 2020. Dyna'r awgrym a gefais gan y clercod sy'n fy nghynorthwyo gyda'r Bil hwn. Nid yw gwneud hyn yn atal gwneud y llall. Mae cyfle o hyd i weithredu ar ddau lwybr. Rydym bob amser yn mynd i gael trefniadau ar wahân ar gyfer plant a phobl hŷn, yn rhinwedd y ffaith bod gennym gomisiynwyr ar gyfer yr agendâu penodol hynny sy'n seiliedig ar hawliau. Nid yw hynny'n wir am unrhyw beth arall o ran hawliau dynol, ond maent yno ar gyfer plant a phobl hŷn. Dyna pam rwy'n argymell y dull hwn, ac rwy'n mawr obeithio y bydd rhai pobl ar y meinciau Llafur, ar feinciau'r Llywodraeth, yn meddwl eto cyn gwrthod y cynnig hwn heddiw.
Thank you. The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Therefore, we defer voting under this item until voting time.
Diolch. Y cynnig yw derbyn y cynnig. A oes unrhyw Aelod yn gwrthwynebu? [Gwrthwynebiad.] Felly, rydym yn gohirio'r pleidleisio ar yr eitem hon tan y cyfnod pleidleisio.
Gohiriwyd y pleidleisio tan y cyfnod pleidleisio.
Voting deferred until voting time.
Item 6 on the agenda is the Member debate under Standing Order 11.21(iv) on Allied Steel and Wire pensions and I call on Bethan Sayed to move the motion. Bethan.
Eitem 6 ar yr agenda yw'r ddadl Aelodau o dan Reol Sefydlog 11.21(iv) ar bensiynau Allied Steel and Wire a galwaf ar Bethan Sayed i wneud y cynnig. Bethan.
Cynnig NDM6919 Bethan Sayed
Cefnogwyd gan Andrew R.T. Davies, Mike Hedges, Helen Mary Jones, Leanne Wood, David Rees
Cynnig bod Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru:
1. Yn nodi nad yw cyn-weithwyr Allied Steel and Wire wedi cael gwerth llawn eu pensiynau o hyd, er gwaethaf cytundeb iawndal a gytunwyd yn 2007 gyda Llywodraeth flaenorol y DU a bron 14 mlynedd ar ôl newid yng nghyfraith y DU.
2. Yn nodi bod gweithwyr, o dan gytundeb iawndal a gytunwyd yn 2007 gyda Llywodraeth flaenorol y DU, wedi cael addewid o union yr un driniaeth â gweithwyr a deiliaid cynllun pensiwn o dan y gronfa diogelu pensiynau a'r cynllun cymorth ariannol.
3. Yn nodi bod gan weithwyr, yn sgil newidiadau yn y gyfraith ers 2004, o dan y gronfa diogelu pensiynau a'r cynllun cymorth ariannol, yr hawl i gael eu talu hyd at 90 y cant o werth eu cyfraniad pensiwn. Fodd bynnag, nid yw cyfraniadau a dalwyd cyn 1997 wedi'u diogelu rhag chwyddiant.
4. Yn gresynu at y caledi ariannol y mae hyn wedi'i achosi i gyn-weithwyr ASW yng Nghymru.
5. Yn galw ar Lywodraeth y DU i anrhydeddu ysbryd yr ymrwymiadau a wnaeth Llywodraeth flaenorol y DU i weithwyr ASW yng Nghymru.
Motion NDM6919 Bethan Sayed
Supported by Andrew R.T. Davies, Mike Hedges, Helen Mary Jones, Leanne Wood, David Rees
To propose that the National Assembly for Wales:
1. Notes that former Allied Steel and Wire workers have still not received the full value of their pensions, despite a compensation deal reached in 2007 with the former UK Government and almost 14 years after a change in UK law.
2. Notes that under a compensation deal reached in 2007 with the former UK Government, workers were promised the same treatment as workers and pension scheme holders under the pension protection fund and financial assistance scheme.
3. Notes that under law changes since 2004, workers under the pension protection fund and financial assistance scheme are entitled to be paid up to 90 percent of their pension contribution value. However, contributions paid in prior to 1997 are not inflation proofed.
4. Regrets the financial hardship this has caused to former ASW workers in Wales.
5. Calls on the UK Government to honour the spirit of the commitments the previous UK Government made to ASW workers in Wales.
Cynigiwyd y cynnig.
Motion moved.
Diolch. I'd like to first of all thank the campaigners, especially John Benson, who, despite years of fighting for their rights and basic fairness and justice, have not given up hope and have not caved in to Governments at Westminster that have either treated them with contempt or with basic ignorance and silence over the years. We don't want to bring this debate again to the Assembly. When I talked to somebody this morning, they said, 'Oh, that debate again. That issue again.' Well, the only reason we're bringing this debate here today is because things have not been rectified, things have not been sorted in relation to the Allied Steel workers’ pensions.
Diolch. Hoffwn yn gyntaf ddiolch i'r ymgyrchwyr, yn enwedig John Benson, sydd, er gwaethaf blynyddoedd o ymladd dros eu hawliau a thegwch a chyfiawnder sylfaenol, heb roi'r gorau i obeithio a heb ildio i Lywodraethau yn San Steffan sydd naill ai wedi eu trin â dirmyg neu ag anwybodaeth sylfaenol a distawrwydd dros y blynyddoedd. Nid ydym eisiau cyflwyno'r ddadl hon i'r Cynulliad eto. Pan siaredais â rhywun y bore yma, dywedodd, 'O, y ddadl honno eto. Y mater hwnnw eto.' Wel, yr unig reswm y cyflwynwn y ddadl hon yma heddiw yw oherwydd nad yw pethau wedi cael eu cywiro, nid ydynt wedi'u datrys mewn perthynas â phensiynau gweithwyr Allied Steel.
So, this issue has been going on for many, many years. The workers at Allied Steel and Wire in Cardiff first found themselves facing a loss of their pensions in 2002. ASW was a big employer in Cardiff, and it’s easy to forget now, with the changes that have taken place in this city, how we did attract those big industrial employers. Some of the workers here today worked at ASW for 40 years prior to its collapse. They had paid into pensions that they assumed were going to be safe. They believed that they would be rewarded for their years of hard work with a retirement pension that would reflect their years of service, and they were wrong.
I understand that this is a debate that we've had before in this Assembly. In fact, I set up a cross-party group with many of you in this Chamber in the last Assembly term to try and grapple with this issue. And I also understand that this is not a devolved issue. I genuinely would hope that if it were a devolved issue, we would have corrected this injustice and that we would have done something very, very different indeed. But it isn’t, and the point of this debate here today is to try and work with the campaigners and to raise this up the political agenda again. I’ve said in numerous debates that we've had—be it on international affairs, be it on issues that are non-devolved—that we have to show moral leadership on these issues if we can’t make the political decisions here in Wales.
Now, when I was involved with the former Visteon pensions dispute—or Ford, as many of the campaigners at the time would have called it—I and others said that a pension was a salary deferred. It is not a cushy bonus, it is not a severance payment, it is not a golden parachute. It is a worker contribution deferred salary to ensure security and stability in old age. We all expect that. We all want that. In fact, that’s what we were debating in the previous debate here today, about how we want that respect when we are all older. But why do we not do it in this regard to ASW workers who deserve the right to have that pension? So, for people such as ASW pensioners, the Visteon workers, or those involved with Equitable Life and so many other companies who have lost part of their pensions, this is what we should call it; we should call it theft by those companies who take the well-earned salaries, the well-earned pensions out of the pockets of the people that they should have been supporting. And we should keep that in mind throughout this debate.
I think it’s worth going through the timeline, very briefly, of this campaign, so we can remind ourselves just how much of a tough slog it’s been for those campaigners. So, ASW collapsed and went into receivership in 2002. The majority of the workers were made redundant, and although the plant was acquired by the Spanish firm Celsa a year later, it was too late for many of those previously employed. It emerged during the course of talks between ASW, the then Welsh Assembly Government and the UK Government that there was a £21 million shortfall in the company pension funds. Despite a buyer being found for the facility, this did not include a return of guaranteed pension for workers made redundant. Eventually, most workers were offered around 40 per cent of their expected pension value—nothing at all close to what they deserved. So, a campaign was started, and many believed it had been successful when the then UK Labour Government announced the financial assistance scheme and, a year later, the pension protection fund.
Now, it’s easy to forget that, in 2002, the current system we have did not exist. At the time, there was a growing spectre of so-called wind-ups—workers no longer being paid the pensions they were promised and paid into based on length of service and their final salary at retirement, instead receiving whatever the schemes could afford to pay after the pensions of existing pensioners had been secured. The point of a wind-up was a sharp and immediate cost-cutting measure on the backs of workers, stealing from the workers, some of whom had paid into the pension schemes from many, many years. Tens of thousands of workers across the UK in various industries were affected in some way by closures, by companies and how they collapsed, and that was how their pensions were treated so disrespectfully.
So, the fact that the ASW workers’ strong and public campaign, backed by people such as Ros—now Baroness—Altmann, was successful in changing the law and introducing Government-backed pension security schemes is a huge achievement. Members here today, I know, will shudder to think of what might have happened to large numbers of Welsh workers had a scheme like the PPF not been set up, however imperfect that scheme is. But the ASW workers have not been given a fair share or fair treatment by successive UK Governments, despite the hard work of campaigners. So, the situation remains today that campaigners have not received anywhere close to the 90 per cent of the value of their pensions. In fact, the campaigners who are now in the FAS get no inflation indexation protection for their pre-1997 contributions, they get very little for post-1997 contributions, and have to suffer a payment cap also. The longer someone worked for this company, the worst position they are likely to find themselves in. There are people in this campaign group who gave 40 years of service to steelworking in Cardiff—and not just in Cardiff. There are people in Kent for whom this situation is just as real, for people who worked hard all their lives in good, skilled jobs with a good salary, to find, in their later years, what was one of financial worry. And I think this is an outrage. An outrage that was born in the original legislation and one that has not been corrected the UK Government.
Now, I am conscious of time and I'd like to close by reading a quote from John Benson who has been diligent in keeping in touch with me and other AMs in this room on this issue. I know that although I don't represent his region, pension justice is something that I care passionately about, although I'm not in pensionable age yet. Despite that fact, I've worked diligently, as hard as I possibly can, with this campaign and with the Visteon pensioners in the past to try and fight for the pensions that they deserve. And it's phenomenal being part of the Visteon campaign—people were just spending all of their time in retirement on campaigning as opposed to actually enjoying the fruit of their labour. So, this is what John said, and then I'll finish with this: 'Almost 17 people have passed away and they're still being robbed of the pensions the Governments encouraged them to save in. That retirement dream has been shattered by Governments' flawed legislation. Many of these decent, hardworking men and women, it must be said, have been inhumanely betrayed by successive Governments. They don't deserve to be treated so unfairly; they put their trust in Governments and that trust was betrayed.'
We have a duty to support and help those former ASW steelworks. I hope that we can do justice to their cause and continue to raise this issue on the highest levels of political engagement, make sure that action is taken, and support John and people like him.
Felly, mae'r ddadl hon wedi bod yn mynd rhagddi ers blynyddoedd lawer. Canfu gweithwyr Allied Steel and Wire yng Nghaerdydd eu bod yn wynebu colli eu pensiynau yn 2002. Roedd ASW yn gyflogwr mawr yng Nghaerdydd, ac mae'n hawdd anghofio yn awr, gyda'r newidiadau sydd wedi digwydd yn y ddinas hon, sut roeddem yn denu'r cyflogwyr diwydiannol mawr hynny. Gweithiodd rhai o'r gweithwyr sydd yma heddiw yn ASW am 40 mlynedd cyn i'r cwmni fynd i'r wal. Roeddent wedi talu tuag at bensiynau y credent eu bod yn ddiogel. Roeddent yn credu y caent eu gwobrwyo am eu blynyddoedd o waith caled â phensiwn ymddeol a fyddai'n adlewyrchu eu blynyddoedd o wasanaeth, ac roeddent yn anghywir.
Rwy'n deall bod hon yn ddadl a gawsom o'r blaen yn y Cynulliad. Yn wir, sefydlais grŵp trawsbleidiol gyda llawer ohonoch yn y Siambr hon yn ystod tymor diwethaf y Cynulliad i geisio mynd i'r afael â'r mater hwn. Ac rwy'n deall hefyd nad yw'n fater sydd wedi'i ddatganoli. Buaswn o ddifrif yn gobeithio, pe bai'n fater wedi'i ddatganoli, y byddem wedi cywiro'r anghyfiawnder hwn ac y byddem wedi gwneud rhywbeth gwahanol iawn yn wir. Ond nid yw'n fater datganoledig, a diben y ddadl hon yma heddiw yw ceisio gweithio gyda'r ymgyrchwyr a chodi hyn yn uwch eto ar yr agenda wleidyddol. Rwyf wedi dweud mewn nifer o ddadleuon a gawsom—boed ar faterion rhyngwladol, boed ar faterion nad ydynt wedi'u datganoli—fod yn rhaid inni ddangos arweiniad moesol ar y materion hyn os na allwn wneud y penderfyniadau gwleidyddol yma yng Nghymru.
Nawr, pan oeddwn yn ymwneud ag anghydfod pensiynau Visteon o'r blaen—neu Ford, fel y byddai llawer o'r ymgyrchwyr ar y pryd wedi'i alw—roeddwn i ac eraill yn dweud mai cyflog wedi'i ohirio yw pensiwn, nid bonws hawdd, nid taliad diswyddo, nid parasiwt aur. Cyflog gohiriedig ar ffurf cyfraniad gweithwyr ydyw er mwyn sicrhau diogelwch a sefydlogrwydd yn eu henaint. Mae pawb ohonom yn disgwyl hynny. Mae pawb ohonom eisiau hynny. Yn wir, dyna a drafodwyd gennym yn y ddadl flaenorol yma heddiw, ynglŷn â sut rydym eisiau'r parch hwnnw pan fyddwn yn hŷn. Ond pam na wnawn ni hynny yn achos gweithwyr ASW sy'n haeddu'r hawl i gael y pensiwn hwnnw? Felly, ar gyfer pobl megis pensiynwyr ASW, gweithwyr Visteon, neu'r rhai sy'n gysylltiedig ag Equitable Life a chynifer o gwmnïau eraill sydd wedi colli rhan o'u pensiynau, dyma beth y dylem ei alw; dylem ei alw'n lladrad gan y cwmnïau hynny sy'n cymryd y cyflogau haeddiannol hynny, y pensiynau haeddiannol hynny allan o bocedi'r bobl y dylent fod yn eu cynnal. A dylem gadw hynny mewn cof drwy'r ddadl.
Credaf ei bod yn werth mynd drwy linell amser yr ymgyrch hon yn fyr iawn, er mwyn inni atgoffa ein hunain pa mor galed yw hi wedi bod ar yr ymgyrchwyr hyn. Felly, aeth ASW i'r wal a mynd i law'r derbynnydd yn 2002. Cafodd y rhan fwyaf o'r gweithwyr eu diswyddo, ac er i'r cwmni Sbaenaidd Celsa gaffael y ffatri flwyddyn yn ddiweddarach, roedd yn rhy hwyr i lawer o'r rhai a gyflogid yn flaenorol. Daeth yn amlwg yn ystod trafodaethau rhwng ASW, Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru a Llywodraeth y DU ar y pryd fod diffyg o £21 miliwn yng nghronfeydd pensiwn y cwmni. Er bod rhywun wedi prynu'r safle, nid oedd hyn yn cynnwys enillion pensiwn gwarantedig ar gyfer gweithwyr a ddiswyddwyd. Yn y pen draw, cyngiwyd oddeutu 40 y cant o werth disgwyliedig eu pensiwn i'r rhan fwyaf o'r gweithwyr—nad oedd yn agos at yr hyn a haeddent. Felly, dechreuwyd ymgyrch, ac roedd llawer yn credu ei bod wedi llwyddo pan gyhoeddodd Llywodraeth Lafur y DU ar y pryd gynllun cymorth ariannol, a'r gronfa diogelu pensiynau flwyddyn yn ddiweddarach.
Nawr, mae'n hawdd anghofio nad oedd y system bresennol sydd gennym yn bodoli yn 2002. Ar y pryd, roedd bwgan cynyddol yr hyn a elwid yn drefniadau dirwyn i ben—lle nad oedd gweithwyr mwyach yn cael y pensiynau a addawyd iddynt ac y talasant i mewn iddynt yn seiliedig ar hyd gwasanaeth a'u cyflog terfynol adeg ymddeol, a lle y byddent yn lle hynny yn cael beth bynnag y gallai'r cynlluniau fforddio ei dalu ar ôl sicrhau bod pensiynau'r rhai a oedd eisoes yn bensiynwyr wedi'u diogelu. Pwynt trefniadau dirwyn i ben oedd bod yn ddull sydyn ac uniongyrchol o dorri costau ar draul gweithwyr, lladrata oddi wrth y gweithwyr, gyda rhai ohonynt wedi bod yn talu i'r cynlluniau pensiwn ers llawer iawn o flynyddoedd. Cafodd degau o filoedd o weithwyr ledled y DU mewn amrywiol ddiwydiannau eu heffeithio mewn rhyw ffordd gan gau safleoedd, gan gwmnïau a'r modd yr aent i'r wal, a dyna sut y cafodd eu pensiynau eu trin mor amharchus.
Felly, mae'r ffaith bod ymgyrch gref a chyhoeddus gweithwyr ASW, gyda chefnogaeth pobl megis Ros Altmann—y Farwnes Ros Altmann bellach—wedi llwyddo i newid y gyfraith a chyflwyno cynlluniau diogelu pensiynau wedi'u cefnogi gan y Llywodraeth yn gamp aruthrol. Gwn y bydd Aelodau yma heddiw'n arswydo wrth feddwl am yr hyn a allai fod wedi digwydd i nifer fawr o weithwyr Cymru pe bai cynllun fel y gronfa diogelu pensiynau heb gael ei sefydlu, er mor amherffaith yw'r cynllun hwnnw. Ond ni chafodd gweithwyr ASW gyfran deg na thriniaeth deg gan Lywodraethau olynol y DU, er gwaethaf gwaith caled yr ymgyrchwyr. Felly, y sefyllfa heddiw o hyd yw nad yw ymgyrchwyr wedi cael unrhyw beth yn debyg i 90 y cant o werth eu pensiynau. Mewn gwirionedd, nid yw'r ymgyrchwyr sydd bellach yn y cynllun cymorth ariannol yn cael unrhyw amddiffyniad mynegai chwyddiant ar eu cyfraniadau cyn 1997, ychydig iawn a gânt ar gyfraniadau ar ôl 1997, ac maent yn gorfod dioddef cap ar daliadau hefyd. Po hwyaf y bu rhywun yn gweithio i'r cwmni hwn, y gwaethaf yw'r sefyllfa y maent yn debygol o fod ynddi. Mae yna bobl yn y grŵp ymgyrchu a roddodd 40 mlynedd o wasanaeth i gynhyrchu dur yng Nghaerdydd—ac nid yng Nghaerdydd yn unig. Mae yna bobl yng Nghaint sy'n wynebu sefyllfa yr un mor real, pobl sydd wedi gweithio'n galed ar hyd eu hoes mewn swyddi medrus ar gyflogau da, ac sy'n wynebu'r poen meddwl ariannol hwn yn ystod eu blynyddoedd diweddarach. Ac mae'n warthus yn fy marn i. Gwarth a anwyd yn y ddeddfwriaeth wreiddiol ac un nad yw eto wedi'i gywiro gan Lywodraeth y DU.
Nawr, rwy'n ymwybodol o'r amser, a hoffwn gau drwy ddarllen dyfyniad gan John Benson sydd wedi bod yn ddiwyd yn cadw mewn cysylltiad â mi ac ACau eraill yn yr ystafell hon ar y mater hwn. Er nad wyf yn cynrychioli ei ranbarth, gwn fod cyfiawnder pensiwn yn rhywbeth rwy'n malio'n fawr amdano, er nad wyf wedi cyrraedd oedran pensiwn fy hun eto. Er hynny, rwyf wedi gweithio'n ddiwyd, mor galed ag y gallaf, gyda'r ymgyrch hon a chyda phensiynwyr Visteon yn y gorffennol i geisio ymladd am y pensiynau y maent yn eu haeddu. Ac mae'n brofiad anhygoel bod yn rhan o ymgyrch Visteon—roedd pobl yn treulio'u holl amser wedi iddynt ymddeol yn ymgyrchu yn hytrach na mwynhau ffrwyth eu llafur. Felly, dyma'r hyn a ddywedodd John, ac fe fyddaf yn gorffen gyda hyn: 'Mae bron 17 o bobl wedi marw ac maent yn dal i gael y pensiynau y cawsant eu hannog gan y Llywodraeth i'w cynilo wedi'u dwyn oddi arnynt. Mae'r freuddwyd honno o ymddeoliad wedi ei dryllio gan ddeddfwriaeth ddiffygiol Llywodraethau. Rhaid dweud bod llawer o'r dynion a menywod gweithgar a pharchus hyn wedi cael eu bradychu mewn ffordd anynnol gan Lywodraethau olynol. Nid ydynt yn haeddu cael eu trin mor annheg; maent wedi rhoi eu ffydd mewn Llywodraethau a bradychwyd y ffydd honno.'
Mae gennym ddyletswydd i gefnogi a helpu'r cyn-weithwyr dur ASW hynny. Rwy'n gobeithio y gallwn wneud cyfiawnder â'u hachos a pharhau i godi'r mater hwn ar y lefelau uchaf o ymwneud gwleidyddol, sicrhau y cymerir camau, a chefnogi John a phobl debyg iddo.
I welcome the opportunity to speak in this debate and, in particular, the initiative that the Presiding Officer did at the start of this Assembly to bring these formats of debates forward so that Members can bring issues like this, which aren't in the devolved competence, but do affect many of our constituents and we do have a view on it. And I do pay a special tribute to John and Phil who are up in the gallery this afternoon, and in particular the campaigners as well who have surrounded themselves in this campaign, because it is about justice and it is about natural justice here.
When I was looking into this issue over the last couple of days, refreshing my memory of the campaign, I read that the UK Government said that payments were following the legal requirements. Well, there's a moral requirement here, I have to say, and successive Governments have failed to live up to their moral obligations in this particular area.
Bethan, in her closing comments, said, 'I'm not a pensioner yet', and I don't mean this in a derogatory way in any shape or form, but we all think about what we want in our retirement, and many, if not all of us, try and put some form of provision in place, and the workers that are affected—by this shortfall that has happened, in one breath, if you want to be kind; robbery in another breath if you want to be brutally honest—have had their future taken away from them. The individuals concerned did what was right—they put a percentage of their income into a pot. That pot was, they thought, secure, and when they came to retirement age, that would have provided the creature comforts and the ability to have a retirement that they'd planned for all their working lives.
And across the workforce, some would have had more than others to lose, but each and every one of the workers at ASW, and many other operations across the United Kingdom, not just here in Wales, have had that retirement taken away from them. And there's an obligation on politicians, whatever walk they come from, and from whatever political party they come from, to actually live up to the moral obligation that we need to correct this injustice. And I believe passionately in this, because I've met the campaigners, and John in particular, and Phil, on several occasions and I just cannot see a logical argument that can be put back to them when you see the points that they make. And it's not right that people are having their pension eaten into because they do not have inflation protection built into the compensation package that was put in place. Inflation is a brutal enemy of retirement. Once you move on to that very fixed income of the pension that you have and you physically, obviously are in your—many people stay very active in later life, but it is a fact that you're not doing the same amount of work or having the same opportunities as when you were 20, 30 or 40, and your earning potential is constrained, and you're on that fixed income.
And so there is an obligation, I believe, for the UK Government to reopen this. And I know it's a Conservative Government up there today. It was a Conservative/Lib Dem Government before that, and it was a Labour Government before that. And I accept that in the early to mid 2000s, various remedies were put in place, but those remedies have come up short and have come up short in a big way, and it cannot be right that, because a period of time has passed, people in positions of influence and power believe that that time will allow this to be brushed under the carpet and washed away. It will not be allowed to be brushed away and it will not be allowed to be washed away, because, as I've said, the individuals concerned by this injustice did what was right and, as a society, we need to do what's right by them by giving back their pensions and that security that is required in later life.
We knew that these things were happening in the 1990s and the 1980s. We only need to look at what happened with the Robert Maxwell pension scandal that was going on at Mirror Group Newspapers. This wasn't something that was unknown, and at the time regulators and politicians didn't step in and correct it. Well, we now know where those anomalies existed. Safeguards have been built into the system, but those caught by the inadequacies of the previous system shouldn't be penalised in their retirement. And I wholeheartedly endorse the sentiments on the order paper today of this motion, and I very much look forward to continuing to campaign with the campaigners to make sure that we give them justice, that we give them their pension back—pensions that they paid into. It is their money, and they deserve it, and we will not allow the passage of time to allow this injustice just to fall away. And so I welcome working across parties in this Chamber to make sure that their voices are not forgotten, and I will work with colleagues, wherever they sit, to make sure that we get the changes to the scheme that are required.
Rwy'n croesawu'r cyfle i siarad yn y ddadl hon ac yn benodol, menter y Llywydd ar ddechrau'r Cynulliad hwn i gyflwyno dadleuon ar fformat o'r fath fel y gall Aelodau gyflwyno materion fel hyn nad ydynt o fewn y cymhwysedd datganoledig, ond sy'n effeithio ar lawer o'n hetholwyr, a materion y mae gennym farn arnynt. Ac rwy'n talu teyrnged arbennig i John a Phil sydd yn yr oriel y prynhawn yma, ac yn benodol i'r ymgyrchwyr hefyd sydd wedi bwrw iddi gyda'r ymgyrch hon, oherwydd mae a wnelo â chyfiawnder, ac mae a wnelo â chyfiawnder naturiol yma.
Pan oeddwn yn edrych ar y mater hwn dros yr ychydig ddyddiau diwethaf i atgoffa fy hun am yr ymgyrch, darllenais fod Llywodraeth y DU wedi dweud bod taliadau'n dilyn y gofynion cyfreithiol. Wel, mae yna ofyniad moesol yma, rhaid imi ddweud, ac mae Llywodraethau olynol wedi methu cyflawni eu rhwymedigaethau moesol yn y maes penodol hwn.
Dywedodd Bethan yn ei sylwadau wrth gloi, 'Nid wyf yn bensiynwr eto', ac nid wyf yn golygu hyn mewn ffordd fychanol o gwbl, ond mae pawb ohonom yn meddwl ynglŷn â'r hyn rydym ei eisiau wedi inni ymddeol, ac mae llawer ohonom, os nad pob un ohonom, yn ceisio sefydlu rhyw fath o ddarpariaeth, ac mae'r gweithwyr yr effeithir arnynt—gan y diffyg hwn sydd wedi digwydd ar amrantiad, os ydych am fod yn garedig; mae lladrad yn air arall amdano os ydych am fod yn greulon o onest—wedi cael eu dyfodol wedi'i gymryd oddi arnynt. Fe wnaeth yr unigolion dan sylw y peth cywir—rhoesant ganran o'u hincwm mewn pot. Roeddent yn credu bod y pot hwnnw'n ddiogel a phan ddeuai'n adeg iddynt ymddeol, byddai wedi darparu'r cysuron a'r gallu i gael yr ymddeoliad roeddent wedi cynllunio ar ei gyfer ar hyd eu bywydau gwaith.
Ac ar draws y gweithlu, byddai mwy gan rai i'w golli nag eraill, ond mae pob un o weithwyr ASW, a llawer o weithfeydd eraill ledled y Deyrnas Unedig, nid yma yng Nghymru yn unig, wedi gweld yr ymddeoliad hwnnw'n cael ei gymryd oddi arnynt. Ac mae gorfodaeth ar wleidyddion, o ba gefndir bynnag, ac o ba blaid wleidyddol bynnag, i gyflawni'r ddyletswydd foesol sydd ei hangen arnom i unioni'r anghyfiawnder hwn. A chredaf yn gryf yn hyn, oherwydd rwyf wedi cyfarfod â'r ymgyrchwyr, a John yn benodol, a Phil, ar sawl achlysur ac ni allaf weld unrhyw ddadl resymegol y gellir ei rhoi'n ôl iddynt pan welwch y pwyntiau y maent yn eu gwneud. Ac nid yw'n iawn fod pensiynau pobl yn cael eu tocio am nad oes ganddynt amddiffyniad rhag chwyddiant wedi'i gynnwys yn y pecyn iawndal a oedd ar waith. Chwyddiant yw gelyn creulon ymddeoliad. Pan symudwch ymlaen at incwm pensiwn sy'n sefydlog iawn, ac yn amlwg, yn gorfforol, rydych yn eich—mae llawer o bobl yn parhau'n brysur iawn yn ddiweddarach mewn bywyd, ond mae'n ffaith nad ydych yn gwneud yr un faint o waith nac yn cael yr un cyfleoedd â phan oeddech yn 20, 30 neu 40 ac mae eich gallu i ennill cyflog yn gyfyngedig, ac rydych ar yr incwm sefydlog hwnnw.
Ac felly, yn fy marn i mae rhwymedigaeth ar Lywodraeth y DU i ailagor hyn. A gwn mai Llywodraeth Geidwadol sydd yno heddiw. Llywodraeth Geidwadol/Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol oedd yno cyn hynny, a Llywodraeth Lafur cyn honno. Ac o ddechrau i ganol y 2000au, rwy'n derbyn bod camau unioni amrywiol wedi'u rhoi ar waith, ond roedd y camau unioni hynny'n ddiffygiol, a hynny i raddau helaeth iawn, ac ni all fod yn iawn, oherwydd bod cyfnod o amser wedi pasio, fod pobl mewn swyddi â dylanwad a grym yn credu y bydd yr amser hwnnw'n caniatáu i hyn gael ei ysgubo o'r golwg a'i anghofio. Ni ddylid caniatáu iddo gael ei ysgubo o'r golwg ac ni ddylid caniatáu iddo gael ei anghofio, oherwydd, fel y dywedais, gwnaeth yr unigolion sy'n destun yr anghyfiawnder hwn yr hyn a oedd yn iawn ac fel cymdeithas, mae angen inni wneud yr hyn sy'n iawn drwy roi eu pensiynau yn ôl iddynt, ynghyd â'r diogelwch hwnnw sydd ei angen yn ddiweddarach mewn bywyd.
Roeddem yn gwybod bod y pethau hyn yn digwydd yn y 1980au a'r 1990au. Nid oes ond angen inni edrych ar beth a ddigwyddodd gyda sgandal pensiynau Robert Maxwell a oedd yn digwydd gyda Mirror Group Newspapers. Nid oedd yn rhywbeth nad oedd pobl yn gwybod amdano, ac ar y pryd, ni chamodd rheoleiddwyr a gwleidyddion i mewn a'i gywiro. Wel, gwyddom bellach lle roedd yr anghysonderau hynny. Mae mesurau diogelu wedi'u hymgorffori yn y system, ond ni ddylid cosbi'r rhai a gafodd eu dal gan ddiffygion y system flaenorol yn eu hymddeoliad. A llwyr ategaf deimladau'r cynnig ar y papur trefn heddiw, ac edrychaf ymlaen at barhau i ymgyrchu gyda'r ymgyrchwyr i wneud yn siŵr ein bod yn sicrhau cyfiawnder iddynt, ein bod yn rhoi eu pensiwn yn ôl iddynt—pensiynau y maent wedi talu i mewn iddynt. Eu harian hwy ydyw, ac maent yn ei haeddu, ac ni wnawn ganiatáu i dreigl amser ganiatáu i'r anghyfiawnder hwn gael ei anghofio. Ac felly rwy'n croesawu gwaith trawsbleidiol yn y Siambr hon i wneud yn siŵr nad anghofir eu lleisiau, a byddaf yn gweithio gyda chyd-Aelodau, lle bynnag yr eisteddant, i wneud yn siŵr y cawn y newidiadau sydd eu hangen i'r cynllun.
I want to speak in support of the Allied Steel and Wire workers, because they have a very just case. They are entitled to justice, and the campaign that they've been running is also one that reflects anomalies in the whole pension industry, going back to the early 1980s. And I go back to the 1980s—I mean, thank God at least then you at least had one baseline, which was the pensions directive from the European Union, and, of course, some of these protections we may actually lose in the future. I had a passing involvement as a trade union lawyer in, of course, the legal action on behalf of a community that went to the European Court, which was partly successful in the sense that the court recognised that the UK Government was in breach of its obligations but, of course, didn't impose a requirement for a system of compensation of 100 per cent, and that was the failure, and that was what subsequent regulation was meant to correct.
We need to go back also to the fact that this whole area of deregulation of the pension industry was a specific campaign by the insurance industry and an insurance industry that continues to have far too much and far too overbearing control and involvement in Government policies and particular current policies. And we have to remember also that it was the 1986 Act, under Margaret Thatcher, that resulted in that deregulation, and that deregulation—we need to think very carefully about what it actually did. It allowed companies to opt out of the obligation to provide occupational pensions. It allowed companies to take money out of surpluses of pensions, and it failed to provide for the risks that would arise in respect of companies becoming insolvent. And the reason those risks were disregarded was because it was an insurance industry that had the Government in its pocket. And we have to look, for example, at what happened to the Mineworkers' Pension Scheme, and of course there was a campaign ongoing with that with regard to the National Union of Mineworkers.
And what happened because of that deregulation, and because of the pit closures at the time, was miners were being told, 'There you are, you can take your pension funds out, you can now transfer them'—from what is probably one of the world's most successful pension funds—'and put them in private pension funds.' And this is the way the industry worked. Insurance representatives went round the individual miners and they said, 'Oh, no, no, put your money into this fund, it'll be much, much better', but what they didn't tell the miner was that, for the first five years, they'd be paying money to the actual financial services people. And then, after five years, when they would start accumulating some benefit, someone would come along and say, 'Oh, so-and-so has gone now, I think we need to review', and then they'd do the same thing again. So, the miners were being continually robbed. And there were many other groups of workers who were in that same position. And, in fact, there was an assessment done by professional pension advisers—these are the professional advisers—69 per cent of them basically said that one of the consequences of Margaret Thatcher's deregulation was that she not only failed to see the effect of her regulations on pension schemes, but how much at risk members of these schemes would be in the event of the firms going into liquidation, and that is exactly what happened.
Now, various measures were put in place to try and assist since then, but what is very clear is we have a quagmire of regulations, and we now have whole groups of people where a surplus is being taken out of pensions when it suits either the employer, the Government, or a particular industry, and then, when there are subsequent gaps in there, it is the workers, the people who pay in their pensions over all those many years, who then actually suffer. So, we actually have—. We have the Allied Steel and Wire workers, many of whom are now massively reduced in terms of the amount of pension they are entitled to by virtue of their contributions. We have the Women Against State Pension Inequality, where Government changed regulations and suddenly you have people now having to work another five, six, seven years because of changes in terms of the pensions. And we have a Government taking billions of pounds out of the most successful workers' pension scheme in the world, the mineworkers pension scheme, and the Government refusing to negotiate over a rearrangement—not an abolition of those arrangements, but a rearrangement.
So, I support this because not only are the ASW workers right, but there is a need for a wholesale review of what has been happening with pensions, what continues to happen—the legislation coming through now restricting the rights of people to compensation in favour of the insurance industry, an insurance industry that benefits from every piece of legislation, and there is no evidence of people actually benefiting from that. And the fact that we have a Government that is in the pocket of the insurance industry I think is really very, very worrying. So, I think a royal commission on pensions, a review of pensions—something that basically sets the objective of restoring justice—but also re-establishing a proper pension scheme so that, when workers pay into those pension schemes, they're entitled to what they paid in when they get to the entitlement to a pension.
Rwyf am siarad o blaid gweithwyr Allied Steel and Wire, am fod ganddynt achos cyfiawn iawn. Mae ganddynt hawl i gyfiawnder, ac mae'r ymgyrch a gynhaliwyd ganddynt hefyd yn un sy'n adlewyrchu anghysondebau yn y diwydiant pensiynau drwyddo draw, yn mynd yn ôl i ddechrau'r 1980au. Ac af yn ôl at y 1980au—hynny yw, diolch byth, bryd hynny o leiaf roedd gennych un linell sylfaen, sef y gyfarwyddeb pensiynau o'r Undeb Ewropeaidd, ac wrth gwrs, gallem golli rhai o'r mesurau diogelu hyn yn y dyfodol. Bûm yn ymwneud am gyfnod, fel cyfreithiwr undeb llafur wrth gwrs, mewn achos cyfreithiol ar ran cymuned a aeth i'r Llys Ewropeaidd, a chafwyd llwyddiant rhannol yn yr ystyr bod y llys wedi cydnabod bod Llywodraeth y DU wedi torri ei rhwymedigaethau ond wrth gwrs, ni osododd ofyniad am system o iawndal 100 y cant, a dyna oedd y methiant, a dyna roedd rheoliadau dilynol i fod i'w gywiro.
Mae angen inni fynd yn ôl hefyd at y ffaith bod holl faes dadreoleiddio'r diwydiant pensiwn yn ymgyrch benodol gan y diwydiant yswiriant, a diwydiant yswiriant sy'n parhau i fod â gormod o reolaeth o lawer ac sy'n ymwneud llawer gormod ym mholisïau'r Llywodraeth a pholisïau cyfredol penodol. A rhaid inni gofio hefyd mai Deddf 1986, o dan Margaret Thatcher, a arweiniodd at y dadreoleiddio hwnnw, a'r dadreoleiddio—mae angen inni feddwl yn ofalus am yr hyn a wnaeth mewn gwirionedd. Caniataodd i gwmnïau optio allan o'r rhwymedigaeth i ddarparu pensiynau galwedigaethol. Caniataodd i gwmnïau dynnu arian allan o warged pensiynau, a methodd ddarparu ar gyfer y risgiau a fyddai'n codi mewn perthynas â chwmnïau'n mynd yn fethdalwyr. A'r rheswm pam y diystyrwyd y risgiau hynny oedd bod y Llywodraeth ym mhoced y diwydiant yswiriant. A rhaid inni edrych, er enghraifft, ar yr hyn a ddigwyddodd i Gynllun Pensiwn y Glowyr, ac wrth gwrs roedd ymgyrch yn mynd rhagddi ynglŷn â hynny mewn perthynas ag Undeb Cenedlaethol y Glowyr.
A'r hyn a ddigwyddodd oherwydd y dadreoleiddio hwnnw, ac oherwydd cau'r pyllau glo ar y pryd, oedd bod glowyr yn cael clywed, 'Dyna chi, gallwch dynnu eich cronfeydd pensiwn allan, gallwch eu trosglwyddo yn awr'—o'r hyn a oedd yn un o gronfeydd pensiwn mwyaf llwyddiannus y byd mae'n debyg—'a'u rhoi mewn cronfeydd pensiwn preifat.' A dyma'r ffordd y gweithiai'r diwydiant. Ai cynrychiolwyr yswiriant o gwmpas y glowyr unigol a dweud, 'O, na, na, rhowch eich arian yn y gronfa hon, bydd hi'n llawer gwell', ond yr hyn nad oeddent yn ei ddweud wrth y glöwr oedd y byddai'n talu arian i bobl y gwasanaethau ariannol eu hunain am y pum mlynedd cyntaf. Ac yna, ar ôl pum mlynedd, pan fyddent yn dechrau cronni rhywfaint o fudd, byddai rhywun yn dod ac yn dweud, 'O, mae hyn a hyn wedi mynd bellach, rwy'n credu bod angen inni adolygu', ac yna byddent yn gwneud yr un peth eto. Felly, byddent yn dwyn oddi wrth y glowyr yn barhaus. Ac roedd llawer o grwpiau eraill o weithwyr yn yr un sefyllfa. Ac yn wir, gwnaed asesiad gan gynghorwyr pensiwn proffesiynol—cynghorwyr proffesiynol yw'r rhain—a dywedodd 69 y cant ohonynt yn y bôn mai un o ganlyniadau dadreoleiddio Margaret Thatcher oedd nid yn unig iddi fethu gweld effaith ei rheoliadau ar gynlluniau pensiwn, ond cymaint o risg a wynebai aelodau o'r cynlluniau hyn pe bai’r cwmnïau'n mynd yn fethdalwyr, a dyna'n union a ddigwyddodd.
Nawr, rhoddwyd amryw o fesurau ar waith i geisio helpu ers hynny, ond yr hyn sy'n glir iawn yw bod gennym gors gyfan o reoliadau, a bellach mae gennym grwpiau cyfan o bobl lle y mae gwarged yn cael ei dynnu allan o bensiynau pan fo'n gyfleus naill ai i'r cyflogwr, y Llywodraeth, neu ddiwydiant penodol wneud hynny ac yna, pan fydd bylchau dilynol yno, y gweithwyr, y bobl sy'n talu eu pensiynau dros yr holl flynyddoedd, sy'n dioddef mewn gwirionedd. Felly, mae gennym—. Mae gennym weithwyr Allied Steel and Wire, ac mae pensiynau llawer ohonynt bellach yn llawer iawn llai o ran y swm y mae ganddynt hawl iddo yn rhinwedd eu cyfraniadau. Mae gennym Women Against State Pension Inequality, lle y newidiodd y Llywodraeth y rheoliadau ac yn sydyn mae gennych bobl bellach yn gorfod gweithio pum, chwe, saith mlynedd arall oherwydd newidiadau i bensiynau. Ac mae gennym Lywodraeth sy'n cymryd biliynau o bunnoedd allan o'r cynllun pensiwn gweithwyr mwyaf llwyddiannus yn y byd, cynllun pensiwn y glowyr, ac mae'r Llywodraeth yn gwrthod negodi ad-drefniant—nid diddymu'r trefniadau hynny, ond ad-drefnu.
Felly, rwy'n cefnogi hwn oherwydd nid yn unig fod gweithwyr ASW yn iawn, ond mae angen adolygiad llwyr o'r hyn a fu'n digwydd gyda phensiynau, yr hyn sy'n parhau i ddigwydd—y ddeddfwriaeth sy'n dod drwodd yn awr o blaid y diwydiant yswiriant ar draul hawliau pobl i gael iawndal, diwydiant yswiriant sy'n cael budd o bob deddfwriaeth, ac nid oes unrhyw dystiolaeth fod pobl yn cael budd o hynny mewn gwirionedd. Ac rwy'n credu bod y ffaith bod gennym Lywodraeth sydd ym mhoced y diwydiant yswiriant yn peri pryder mawr. Felly, credaf fod comisiwn brenhinol ar bensiynau, adolygiad pensiynau—rhywbeth sy'n pennu'r nod o adfer cyfiawnder yn y bôn—ond ail-sefydlu cynllun pensiwn priodol hefyd er mwyn sicrhau, pan fydd gweithwyr yn talu i mewn i'r cynlluniau pensiwn hynny, fod hawl ganddynt i'r hyn y maent wedi ei dalu i mewn pan fyddant yn cyrraedd yr hawl i bensiwn.
It's a pleasure to take part in this debate, although I wish this debate wasn't necessary. Some of us have been Members of this National Assembly for a very long time—since day one, in fact—as was my former Plaid Cymru colleague Owen John Thomas, who was strident in his support for the Allied Steel and Wire pension campaigners all along.
In 2003—that's 16 years ago—Plaid Cymru secured a minority party debate in Tŷ Hywel— remember; we were in the old building then—on the scandal of what had happened to pensions of Allied Steel and Wire. He said, in that debate:
'This is a perfect opportunity for this Labour Government to demonstrate its determination to give workers a fair deal. It was Tory legislation, introduced by Margaret Thatcher, that caused this mess by introducing rules that allow companies to pay off all other creditors before honouring their pension commitments when the company was wound up.'
That was a long time ago and we're still here. The Government-backed pension security scheme was a significant achievement at the time, and this legislation was apparently a progressive change by a Labour Government. It has not turned out that way, and, for years, the Blair and Brown Governments did absolutely nothing to correct the injustices faced by those in the financial assistance scheme. In fact, Baroness Ros Altmann left the Labour Party because of this issue in 2007, which she called 'a scandal'. There was only marginal improvement in the financial assistance scheme after the Government at the time was taken to court, after appealing after being found guilty by the ombudsman of misleading pensioners. The previous Labour Government's treatment of pensioners was not a strong mark of credit for them. The campaign for plain English slammed the Government at the time for its duplicity. The Conservatives came to power in 2010 with the expectation that they would correct the problems in the law when the financial assistance scheme was set up. In fact, they did nothing but offer sympathy. They appointed Baroness Altmann to be a pensions Minister, but would not provide restitution to this campaign and others in the financial assistance scheme. The worrying thing is that this current UK Government has not done anything to ensure the long-term health of private pensions.
The Allied Steel and Wire campaigners are not demanding extras; they simply want fairness. They want their pre-1997 contributions inflation-proofed. They want those in the financial assistance scheme to be treated with the same level of fairness and protection as those in the pension protection fund, and a removal of payment caps and restitution so that they can have what was taken from them returned. As others have said—. We've had some pretty powerful contributions this afternoon: Bethan, great in opening the debate; Andrew R.T. and Mick, tremendous. There are still powerful emotions out there about this, and, as Bethan said, quoting many down the years, a pension contribution is not a bonus at the end of work, it is a deferred part of someone's salary; to take it is theft.
Plaid Cymru's been fighting for justice for these workers and others for years, as we've heard. Those were the comments of Owen John Thomas in 2003. He was still at it in 2007, and I quote—in a debate then, Owen John, still around:
'The UK Government must make changes to the Financial Assistance Scheme so that former ASW workers receive what they would have been entitled to. There is a terrible injustice particularly for those who are under 50 but may have worked up to 35 years at the steelworks, but will miss out on any financial assistance.'
That was 12 years ago. That, in itself, was five years after this issue first arose, and Allied Steel and Wire, a huge factory, only a stone's throw from here—. What can we do about it? Diolch yn fawr.
Mae'n bleser cymryd rhan yn y ddadl hon, er y byddai'n well gennyf pe na bai ei hangen. Mae rhai ohonom wedi bod yn Aelodau o'r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol hwn ers amser hir iawn—ers y diwrnod cyntaf, mewn gwirionedd—fel roedd fy nghyn gyd-Aelod Plaid Cymru, Owen John Thomas, a oedd yn groch ei gefnogaeth i ymgyrchwyr pensiwn Allied Steel and Wire ar hyd yr amser.
Yn 2003—sef 16 mlynedd yn ôl—sicrhaodd Plaid Cymru ddadl plaid leiafrifol yn Nhŷ Hywel—roeddem yn yr hen adeilad ar y pryd, cofiwch—ar sgandal yr hyn a oedd wedi digwydd i bensiynau Allied Steel and Wire. Yn y ddadl honno, dywedodd Owen John Thomas:
Mae hwn yn gyfle perffaith i'r Llywodraeth Lafur hon ddangos ei phenderfyniad i roi chwarae teg i weithwyr. Deddfwriaeth Dorïaidd, a gyflwynwyd gan Margaret Thatcher, a achosodd y llanastr hwn drwy gyflwyno rheolau sy'n caniatáu i gwmnïau dalu eu holl gredydwyr eraill cyn anrhydeddu eu hymrwymiadau pensiwn wrth i gwmni gael ei ddirwyn i ben.
Roedd hynny amser maith yn ôl, ac rydym yn dal yma. Roedd y cynllun diogelu pensiynau a gefnogwyd gan y Llywodraeth yn gyflawniad arwyddocaol ar y pryd, ac roedd y ddeddfwriaeth i'w gweld yn newid blaengar gan Lywodraeth Lafur. Nid dyna fel y mae pethau wedi datblygu, ac ers blynyddoedd, ni wnaeth Llywodraethau Blair a Brown ddim byd o gwbl i unioni unrhyw anghyfiawnder a wynebai'r rhai o fewn y cynllun cymorth ariannol. Yn wir, gadawodd y Farwnes Ros Altmann y Blaid Lafur oherwydd y mater hwn yn 2007, mater a alwai'n 'sgandal'. Gwelliant ymylol a welwyd yn y cynllun cymorth ariannol ar ôl i'r Llywodraeth ar y pryd orfod mynd i'r llys, wedi iddi apelio ar ôl ei chael yn euog gan yr ombwdsmon o gamarwain pensiynwyr. Nid oedd y modd yr oedd y Llywodraeth Lafur flaenorol wedi trin pensiynwyr yn ennyn llawer o glod. Daeth y Llywodraeth ar y pryd o dan lach y Campaign for Plain English am fod yn ddauwynebog. Daeth y Ceidwadwyr i rym yn 2010 gyda'r disgwyliad y byddent yn cywiro'r problemau hyn yn y gyfraith pan gâi'r cynllun cymorth ariannol ei sefydlu. Ni wnaethant ddim heblaw cynnig cydymdeimlad mewn gwirionedd. Fe wnaethant benodi'r Farwnes Altmann i fod yn Weinidog pensiynau, ond nid oeddent yn barod i ddarparu iawndal i'r ymgyrchwyr hyn ac i eraill yn y cynllun cymorth ariannol. Y peth sy'n peri pryder yw nad yw'r Llywodraeth bresennol yn y DU wedi gwneud unrhyw beth i sicrhau iechyd hirdymor pensiynau preifat.
Nid yw ymgyrchwyr Allied Steel and Wire yn mynnu pethau ychwanegol; maent eisiau tegwch. Maent eisiau i'w cyfraniadau cyn 1997 gael eu hamddiffyn rhag chwyddiant. Maent eisiau i'r rhai yn y cynllun cymorth ariannol gael eu trin gyda'r un lefel o degwch a diogelwch â'r rhai sydd yn y gronfa diogelu pensiynau, a dileu cap ar daliadau ac iawndal fel y gallant gael yr hyn a gymerwyd oddi arnynt. Fel y dywedodd eraill—. Rydym wedi cael cyfraniadau go rymus y prynhawn yma: Bethan, roeddech yn wych wrth agor y ddadl; Andrew R.T. a Mick, aruthrol. Ceir emosiynau pwerus ynglŷn â hyn o hyd, ac fel y dywedodd Bethan, gan ddyfynnu llawer o bobl dros y blynyddoedd, nid bonws ar ddiwedd gwaith yw cyfraniad pensiwn, ond rhan ohiriedig o gyflog rhywun; mae ei gymryd yn lladrad.
Bu Plaid Cymru'n ymladd dros gyfiawnder i'r gweithwyr hyn ac eraill ers blynyddoedd, fel y clywsom. Sylwadau Owen John Thomas yn 2003 oedd y rheini. Roedd yn dal wrthi yn 2007, a dyfynnaf—mewn dadl gan Owen John a oedd yn dal yma ar y pryd:
Rhaid i Lywodraeth y DU wneud newidiadau i'r Cynllun Cymorth Ariannol fel bod cyn-weithwyr ASW yn cael yr hyn y byddai hawl ganddynt ei gael. Mae yma anghyfiawnder ofnadwy yn arbennig i'r rhai sydd o dan 50 oed ond sydd efallai wedi gweithio hyd at 35 mlynedd yn y gwaith dur, ond sy'n mynd i fethu cael unrhyw gymorth ariannol.
Roedd hynny 12 mlynedd yn ôl. Roedd hynny ynddo'i hun bum mlynedd wedi i'r mater hwn godi ei ben am y tro cyntaf, ac Allied Steel and Wire, ffatri anferth sydd ond dafliad carreg oddi yma—. Beth allwn ni ei wneud am y peth? Diolch yn fawr.
Thank you. I call on the Minister for Finance and the Trefnydd to speak to the debate—Rebecca Evans.
Diolch. Galwaf ar y Gweinidog Cyllid a'r Trefnydd i siarad yn y ddadl—Rebecca Evans.
Thank you. I'd like to thank all Members who have brought forward this important issue to the floor of the Assembly today, and for giving that opportunity to give voice to the concerns of ASW pensioners. I will say from the outset that ASW pensioners have been subject to what is a really grave injustice. People have worked hard, they've paid in, they've planned for their futures, they did the right thing, and, through no fault of their own, they've found that they are denied what they could just reasonably have expected.
Members will be aware, of course, as we've heard, that pension matters are not devolved to Wales, but, nonetheless, we support the former ASW employees in their campaign for pension reinstatement. The Welsh Government is pleased to vote in favour of this cross-party motion today and we hope that the Assembly will send a clear and unanimous message to the UK Government.
From the outset, the Welsh Government has been consistent in its support for ASW employees prior to and following the closure of the Cardiff works in 2002. Our support included extensive activity around the closure of ASW, with a strong personal involvement by the then First Minister, including the chairing of meetings with ASW's administrators and employee representatives, plus separate meetings with the independent trustees of the ASW pension schemes to discuss issues raised by members; practical support to ASW's administrators in seeking interested parties for the Cardiff works as a going concern, leading to the successful reopening of the works by Celsa in 2003; and Welsh Ministers making numerous representations to the UK Government on behalf of all ASW pension scheme members.
Welsh Ministers first wrote to the UK Government Ministers responsible for pension matters in August 2002 to highlight the circumstances of the former ASW employees and to ask that all avenues of potential support and assistance within the pensions and employment regime be fully explored. In June 2003, the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions announced a proposal for the pensions protection fund—the PPF, which we've heard of in this debate—to protect accrued pension rights for defined benefit schemes that began to wind up after April 2005. The Welsh Government subsequently pressed the UK Government to seriously consider retrospective arrangements to enable pension schemes like ASW's to be eligible for inclusion.
Working closely with the independent trustees of the ASW pension schemes and the democratically elected representatives of the former ASW workforce, the Welsh Government continued to support the case for the pension scheme members through correspondence and meetings with UK Government Ministers responsible for pension matters.
Welsh Ministers also met with former ASW employees to hear their concerns first hand. The Welsh Government welcomed the May 2004 announcement by the pensions Secretary of an amendment to the Pensions Bill to provide for the financial assistance scheme, the FAS. The FAS was intended to provide assistance to members of pension schemes where the employer became insolvent before the establishment of the PPF.
The Welsh Government also welcomed the inclusion of the ASW pension scheme into the FAS in October 2005. However, it became apparent that the financial assistance scheme would benefit only a very small percentage of ASW pension scheme members. At the time, the scheme was restricted to offering assistance to qualifying members within three years of their scheme's normal retirement age. They would receive top-ups to around 80 per cent of their expected pension, paid from the age of 65 regardless of scheme retirement age, and this was subject to a cap of £12,000. The Welsh Government pressed the UK Government for improvements to the FAS, including provision for those who were more than three years from retirement age, of which there were many within the ASW scheme.
There were also calls to reassess the level of funding for the FAS. Extensions to the financial assistance scheme were announced by the UK Government in 2006 and 2007. The most notable was the December 2007 announcement that all FAS members would receive 90 per cent of their accrued pension at the date of commencement of wind-up, subject to a cap, which at the time was £26,000, and, as of April 2018, is now £35,256. Assistance would also be paid from the scheme's normal retirement age, subject to a lower age limit of 60.
I think what all this shows is that sustained lobbying over the long term by ASW employees and others has led to incremental improvements, which is why we will not give up and we will not stop making the case. And I would like to recognise—.
Diolch. Hoffwn ddiolch i'r holl Aelodau sydd wedi cyflwyno'r mater pwysig hwn ar lawr y Cynulliad heddiw, ac am y cyfle i roi llais i bryderon pensiynwyr ASW. Hoffwn ddweud ar y cychwyn fod pensiynwyr ASW wedi dioddef annhegwch difrifol iawn. Mae pobl wedi gweithio'n galed, maent wedi talu i mewn, maent wedi cynllunio ar gyfer eu dyfodol, ac maent wedi gwneud y peth iawn, a heb fod unrhyw fai arnynt hwy, gwelsant eu bod yn cael eu hamddifadu o'r hyn y gallent fod wedi disgwyl ei gael yn rhesymol.
Bydd yr Aelodau'n gwybod, wrth gwrs, fel y clywsom, nad yw materion pensiwn wedi'u datganoli i Gymru, ond serch hynny, rydym yn cefnogi'r cyn-weithwyr ASW yn eu hymgyrch dros adfer eu pensiwn. Mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn falch o bleidleisio o blaid y cynnig trawsbleidiol hwn heddiw a gobeithiwn y bydd y Cynulliad yn anfon neges glir ac unfrydol i Lywodraeth y DU.
O'r cychwyn cyntaf, bu Llywodraeth Cymru'n gyson yn ei chefnogaeth i weithwyr ASW cyn ac ar ôl cau'r gwaith yng Nghaerdydd yn 2002. Roedd ein cefnogaeth yn cynnwys gweithgarwch helaeth yn gysylltiedig â chau ASW, gyda chyfraniad personol cadarn gan y Prif Weinidog ar y pryd, a oedd yn cynnwys cadeirio cyfarfodydd â gweinyddwyr a chynrychiolwyr gweithwyr ASW a mwy o gyfarfodydd ar wahân gydag ymddiriedolwyr annibynnol cynlluniau pensiwn ASW i drafod materion a godwyd gan aelodau; cymorth ymarferol i weinyddwyr ASW ddod o hyd i bartïon â diddordeb ar gyfer y gwaith yng Nghaerdydd fel busnes gweithredol, gan arwain at ailagor y gwaith yn llwyddiannus gan Celsa yn 2003; a sylwadau niferus gan Weinidogion Cymru i Lywodraeth y DU ar ran holl aelodau cynllun pensiwn ASW.
Ysgrifennodd Gweinidogion Cymru yn gyntaf at Weinidogion Llywodraeth y DU a oedd yn gyfrifol am faterion pensiwn ym mis Awst 2002 i dynnu sylw at amgylchiadau cyn-weithwyr ASW ac i ofyn iddynt ystyried pob llwybr posibl o gymorth a chefnogaeth o fewn y drefn bensiynau a chyflogaeth. Ym mis Mehefin 2003, cyhoeddodd yr Ysgrifennydd Gwladol dros Waith a Phensiynau gynnig yn ymwneud â'r gronfa diogelu pensiynau—y PPF, y clywsom amdani yn y ddadl hon—i ddiogelu hawliau pensiwn cronnus ar gyfer cynlluniau pensiwn â buddion wedi'u diffinio a fyddai'n dechrau dirwyn i ben ar ôl mis Ebrill 2005. Pwysodd Llywodraeth Cymru ar Lywodraeth y DU yn sgil hynny i ystyried o ddifrif sefydlu trefniadau ôl-weithredol i'w gwneud hi'n bosibl cynnwys cynlluniau pensiwn fel un ASW.
Gan weithio'n agos gydag ymddiriedolwyr annibynnol cynlluniau pensiwn ASW a chynrychiolwyr cyn-weithlu ASW a etholwyd yn ddemocrataidd, parhaodd Llywodraeth Cymru i gefnogi'r achos dros aelodau'r cynllun pensiwn drwy ohebiaeth a chyfarfodydd â Gweinidogion Llywodraeth y DU a oedd yn gyfrifol am faterion pensiwn.
Cyfarfu Gweinidogion Cymru hefyd â chyn-weithwyr ASW i glywed eu pryderon yn uniongyrchol. Croesawodd Llywodraeth Cymru y cyhoeddiad ym mis Mai 2004 gan yr Ysgrifennydd pensiynau ynglŷn â gwelliant i'r Bil Pensiynau i ddarparu ar gyfer y cynllun cymorth ariannol. Bwriad y cynllun cymorth ariannol oedd darparu cymorth i aelodau cynlluniau pensiwn lle'r oedd y cyflogwr wedi mynd yn fethdalwr cyn sefydlu'r gronfa diogelu pensiynau.
Hefyd, croesawodd Llywodraeth Cymru y ffaith bod cynllun pensiwn ASW wedi'i gynnwys yn y cynllun cymorth ariannol ym mis Hydref 2005. Fodd bynnag, daeth yn amlwg na fyddai'r cynllun cymorth ariannol ond o fudd i ganran fach iawn o aelodau cynllun pensiwn ASW. Ar y pryd, roedd y cynllun yn gyfyngedig i gynnig cymorth i aelodau cymwys o fewn tair blynedd i oedran pensiwn arferol eu cynllun. Byddent yn derbyn taliadau atodol hyd at oddeutu 80 y cant o'u pensiwn disgwyliedig, wedi'i dalu o'r adeg pan fyddent yn 65 oed ni waeth beth oedd oedran ymddeol y cynllun, ac roedd hyn yn ddarostyngedig i gap o £12,000. Pwysodd Llywodraeth y DU am welliannau i'r cynllun cymorth ariannol, gan gynnwys darpariaeth ar gyfer y rheini a oedd fwy na thair blynedd o'r oedran ymddeol, ac roedd llawer iawn o'r rheini o fewn y cynllun ASW.
Cafwyd galwadau hefyd i ailasesu lefel y cyllid ar gyfer y cynllun cymorth ariannol. Cyhoeddwyd estyniadau i'r cynllun cymorth ariannol gan Lywodraeth y DU yn 2006 a 2007. Y mwyaf nodedig oedd y cyhoeddiad ym mis Rhagfyr 2007 y byddai holl aelodau'r cynllun cymorth ariannol yn cael 90 y cant o'u pensiwn cronnus ar ddyddiad cychwyn y broses o ddirwyn i ben, yn ddarostyngedig i gap, a oedd yn £26,000 ar y pryd, ac o fis Ebrill 2018 ymlaen, mae bellach yn £35,256. Byddai cymorth yn cael ei dalu hefyd o oedran ymddeol arferol y cynllun, yn amodol ar derfyn oedran is o 60 oed.
Yn fy marn i, mae hyn oll yn dangos bod lobïo cyson dros y tymor hir gan weithwyr ASW ac eraill wedi arwain at welliannau cynyddrannol, a dyna pam nad ydym yn rhoi'r ffidil yn y to a pham nad ydym am roi'r gorau i ddadlau'r achos. A hoffwn gydnabod—.
I'm grateful to the Minister for taking an intervention. I might be reading this wrong, but I think this motion will pass with unanimous support this afternoon. I appreciate these votes don't tend to get whipped—these Members' debates don't—so if the vote does pass with unanimous approval—and the Government have indicated their support—will you commit as a Minister to raise this with the Chief Secretary to the Treasury in London when you next meet her, and, in particular, the Department of Work and Pensions, from a Government point of view? Because, as you're quite rightly identifying, extensive lobbying and a continuation of the campaign has borne fruit in the past, and we can't just let this debate be a 'noted' in the minutes of the Assembly.
Diolch i'r Gweinidog am dderbyn ymyriad. Efallai nad wyf yn darllen hyn yn iawn, ond rwy'n credu y bydd y cynnig hwn yn pasio gyda chefnogaeth unfrydol y prynhawn yma. Rwy'n derbyn nad yw'r pleidleisiau hyn yn tueddu i fod yn ddarostyngedig i'r chwip—nid yw'r dadleuon Aelodau hyn—felly os yw'r bleidlais yn pasio gyda chymeradwyaeth unfrydol—ac mae'r Llywodraeth wedi dangos eu cefnogaeth—a wnewch chi ymrwymo fel Gweinidog i ddwyn y mater i sylw Prif Ysgrifennydd y Trysorlys yn Llundain y tro nesaf y byddwch yn ei chyfarfod, ac yn arbennig, yr Adran Gwaith a Phensiynau, o safbwynt y Llywodraeth? Oherwydd, fel y nodwch yn gwbl briodol, mae lobïo helaeth a pharhad yr ymgyrch wedi dwyn ffrwyth yn y gorffennol, ac ni allwn fodloni ar 'nodi' y ddadl hon yng nghofnodion y Cynulliad a dim mwy na hynny.
No, you're absolutely right, and you pre-empted my final paragraph of my speech this afternoon. But, before I do get to that point, I would like to recognise the cross-party support that there has been for this issue across the years, and recognise, for example, the letter that was signed by leaders of all four parties within the Assembly at the time in 2012, to mark what was 10 years after ASW went into administration.
So, although the position for FAS members has improved from the early days of that scheme, it is still the case that for many people, including former ASW employees, significant shortcomings do remain in relation to the support that is provided.
So, to close, on behalf of those affected, the Welsh Government does, once more, urge the UK Government to reconsider the concerns raised by financial assistance scheme members and their representatives to achieve a rightful and positive outcome. And I am pleased to give that commitment today that I will raise this matter directly with the Chief Secretary to the Treasury when we meet in early February, and I will certainly reflect all of the comments that we've had within this debate this afternoon.
Na allwn, rydych yn llygad eich lle, ac rydych wedi achub y blaen ar baragraff olaf fy araith y prynhawn yma. Ond cyn imi ddod at y pwynt hwnnw, hoffwn gydnabod y gefnogaeth drawsbleidiol sydd wedi bod i'r mater hwn dros y blynyddoedd, a chydnabod, er enghraifft, y llythyr a lofnodwyd gan arweinwyr y pedair plaid yn y Cynulliad ar y pryd yn 2012, a nodi 10 mlynedd wedi i ASW fynd i ddwylo'r gweinyddwyr.
Felly, er bod y sefyllfa wedi gwella i aelodau'r cynllun cymorth ariannol ers dyddiau cynnar y cynllun hwnnw, mae'n dal yn wir fod diffygion sylweddol yn parhau i lawer o bobl, gan gynnwys cyn-weithwyr ASW, o ran y cymorth a ddarperir.
Felly, i gloi, ar ran y rhai yr effeithir arnynt, mae Llywodraeth Cymru unwaith eto'n annog Llywodraeth y DU i ailystyried y pryderon a godwyd gan aelodau'r cynllun cymorth ariannol a'u cynrychiolwyr er mwyn sicrhau canlyniad cadarnhaol a haeddiannol. Ac rwy'n falch o roi'r ymrwymiad hwnnw heddiw y byddaf yn dwyn y mater i sylw Prif Ysgrifennydd y Trysorlys yn uniongyrchol pan fyddwn yn cyfarfod yn gynnar ym mis Chwefror, ac yn sicr byddaf yn ystyried yr holl sylwadau a gawsom yn y ddadl hon y prynhawn yma.
Thank you. Can I now call on Mike Hedges to reply to the debate?
Diolch. A gaf fi alw yn awr ar Mike Hedges i ymateb i'r ddadl?
Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. First of all, can I thank everybody for the positive way they've spoken in this debate? Normally when we have debates, some people will speak slightly off, even when they're in support, but there has been unanimity, and I think that is important. Can I also join with Bethan Sayed in congratulating the campaigners, especially John Benson, for keeping at it for so long? But can I urge Assembly colleagues—can you reply to John Benson's e-mails? He e-mails all of us fairly regularly. Not everybody replies. We're going to show support here—hopefully unanimously—but can you actually let him know that he's got that support unanimously by replying to the e-mails he sends?
Diolch ichi, Ddirprwy Lywydd. Yn gyntaf oll, hoffwn ddiolch i bawb am y modd cadarnhaol y maent wedi siarad yn y ddadl hon. Fel arfer pan gawn ddadleuon, bydd rhai pobl yn siarad ychydig fel arall, hyd yn oed pan fyddant yn cefnogi, ond cawsom unfrydedd, ac rwy'n credu bod hynny'n bwysig. A gaf fi ymuno â Bethan Sayed i longyfarch yr ymgyrchwyr, yn enwedig John Benson, am ddal ati cyhyd? Ond a gaf fi annog cyd-Aelodau'r Cynulliad—a wnewch chi ymateb i negeseuon e-bost John Benson? Mae'n anfon negeseuon e-bost at bob un ohonom yn weddol rheolaidd. Nid yw pawb yn ateb. Rydym yn mynd i ddangos cefnogaeth yma—yn unfrydol gobeithio—ond a allwch adael iddo wybod ei fod wedi cael y gefnogaeth unfrydol honno drwy ateb y negeseuon e-bost y mae'n eu hanfon?
Mike, will you take an intervention?
Mike, a wnewch chi dderbyn ymyriad?
Yes.
Gwnaf.
Just to emphasise that point, I think it is actually important that we do have a vote here this afternoon. I will be asking for a vote, actually, rather than just saying blithely, 'It's going to be unanimous.' I think the people deserve that our names are going to be next to—and we register our support fully. So, I will ask for a vote, and, if necessary, that means we'll have to say, 'We object to it just going through, but we'll have the vote', because I want everybody registered saying, 'Yes, we support the pensioners 100 per cent.'
Dim ond i bwysleisio'r pwynt hwnnw, credaf ei bod hi'n bwysig ein bod yn cael pleidlais yma y prynhawn yma. Byddaf yn gofyn am bleidlais, mewn gwirionedd, yn hytrach na dweud yn ddifeddwl, 'Mae'n mynd i fod yn unfrydol.' Credaf fod pobl yn haeddu gweld ein henwau wrth—a'n bod yn cofnodi ein cefnogaeth yn llawn. Felly, byddaf yn gofyn am bleidlais, ac os oes angen, bydd hynny'n golygu y bydd rhaid inni ddweud, 'Rydym yn gwrthwynebu iddo fynd drwodd heb bleidlais', oherwydd rwyf am weld pawb yn cael ei gofnodi'n dweud, 'Rydym yn cefnogi'r pensiynwyr 100 y cant.'
Thank you. As Members here are aware, I represent you on the Assembly Members' pension fund, and there are people from different age groups in here who will probably know exactly how much pension they've got coming. I just ask how you would feel if what happened to the ASW pensioners happened to you. [Interruption.] I can tell you what you've got, Bethan, if you'd want me to at another stage. [Laughter.]
Pensions are, effectively, deferred wages, and, as Bethan Sayed said, Allied Steel and Wire staff have not received the full value of their pensions. They've had the money taken off them. This inevitably's going to mean, for some individuals, financial hardship that they were not expecting. They knew how much they were going to get—. And can I just help people—? The nearer you get to retirement age, the more interest people take in the amount of money they've got in their pensions. People expect their pensions there as they were expected to be, and not to be recalibrated downwards. This is about justice and showing moral leadership, and it's not a large sum of money in terms of Government, and I think it's unfortunate that they're not prepared to find a relatively small sum. Perhaps we ought to say it's a war, then they'll provide plenty of money for it.
Andrew Davies, I agree with you entirely. The shortfall has taken people's futures away from them. Each worker has had their retirement affected very badly. Some have had it made very different to what they were expecting. It's an injustice, and an injustice that needs correcting. We need to show that we support them so the right thing for them can be done.
Mick Antoniw—again, it's a very just case. I think that's been something that's been a comment from everybody who has spoken. They're entitled to justice. This is not about asking for charity. It's not about asking for something over and above what people can expect: it's about justice, and, for me, here, if anything, it's a fight for those who are less well off and who are not getting justice.
Anomalies in the pensions industry—I think it's unfortunate we moved into the post-1979 period where greed was good and deregulation was good and allowed companies to opt out, as Mick Antoniw said, and take money out, not provide for risk, and gaps in the pension fund, when they come to being paid, are paid for by the workers who paid into that pension fund. I think that's incredibly sad for those who are involved. And, remember, if you weren't sitting in here now, it could be you.
I think Mick Antoniw's view of a royal commission on pensions is a very good one. I don't think we're going to get one, but I think it's something we should be asking for. Dai Lloyd—Government-backed pension security scheme, which everybody thought was going to be the answer. Well, I think ASW workers have found out it wasn't, and I think that is sad, because when schemes are brought in that are expected to deal with something where people know there are anomalies, then it's very sad that they fail. And ASW workers continually—. And I'm going to keep on using this word—fairness.
And I'm glad the Minister described ASW as a 'grave injustice'. They've been denied what they expected. The Government is supporting the former ASW workers, and I'm glad they've got support from the Welsh Government. I'm very glad—and I think that Dai Lloyd's made the right decision to call it so that we can have a named vote of everybody who actually supports it, but it cannot be right that people who are getting on now in years, people who are retired in their 60s and at the end of their 70s are still worrying about the pension, and as Bethan Sayed can also tell you with the Visteon campaign, there were a lot of people who died waiting for pension justice. I think that, perhaps, one of the saddest things is that people are awaiting that justice and they never get it, and maybe a portion of it will make its way to their next of kin, but they never get the justice that they've been campaigning for and fighting for.
I think we ought to be fully behind ASW workers. We ought to say, 'We think you deserve justice, and we think the Westminster Government should provide the money', which, in terms of Government expenditure, is a relatively small amount—perhaps one less missile and we'd be able to pay it. I think that, really, we want a situation where the money is provided and people get what they deserve. So, I hope everybody here in this room will support it.
Diolch. Fel y mae'r Aelodau yma'n gwybod, rwy'n eich cynrychioli ar gronfa bensiwn Aelodau'r Cynulliad, ac mae pobl o wahanol grwpiau oedran yma a fydd mae'n debyg yn gwybod yn union faint o bensiwn sydd ar y ffordd iddynt. Rwy'n gofyn i chi sut y byddech yn teimlo pe bai'r hyn a ddigwyddodd i bensiynwyr ASW yn digwydd i chi. [Torri ar draws.] Gallaf ddweud wrthych beth sydd gennych, Bethan, pe baech am imi wneud hynny ryw dro arall. [Chwerthin.]
I bob pwrpas, cyflogau gohiriedig yw pensiynau, ac fel y dywedodd Bethan Sayed, nid yw staff Allied Steel and Wire wedi cael gwerth llawn eu pensiynau. Mae'r arian wedi'i ddwyn oddi arnynt. Yn anochel mae hyn yn mynd i olygu caledi ariannol nad oeddent yn ei ddisgwyl i rai unigolion. Roeddent yn gwybod faint y byddent yn ei gael—. Ac a gaf fi helpu pobl—? Po agosaf y dowch at oedran ymddeol, y mwyaf o ddiddordeb fydd gan bobl yn y swm o arian sydd ganddynt yn eu pensiynau. Mae pobl yn disgwyl i'w pensiynau fod yno fel oedd disgwyl iddynt fod, a heb eu hailraddnodi tuag i lawr. Mae hyn yn ymwneud â chyfiawnder a dangos arweiniad moesol, ac nid yw'n swm mawr o arian o ran y Llywodraeth, ac rwy'n credu ei bod yn anffodus nad ydynt yn barod i ddod o hyd i swm cymharol fach. Byddent yn darparu digonedd o arian ar ei gyfer pe bai'n rhyfel.
Andrew Davies, rwy'n cytuno'n llwyr â chi. Mae'r diffyg wedi amddifadu pobl o'u cynlluniau ar gyfer y dyfodol. Effeithiwyd yn wael iawn ar ymddeoliad pob gweithiwr. Mae rhai wedi wynebu eu dyfodol yn cael ei wneud yn wahanol iawn i'r hyn a ddisgwylient. Mae'n anghyfiawnder, ac yn anghyfiawnder sydd angen ei gywiro. Mae angen inni ddangos ein bod yn eu cefnogi fel bod modd gwneud y peth iawn ar eu rhan.
Mick Antoniw—unwaith eto, mae'n achos cyfiawn iawn. Credaf fod hwnnw'n sylw a wnaethpwyd gan bawb a siaradodd. Mae ganddynt hawl i gyfiawnder. Nid yw hyn yn ymwneud â gofyn am elusen. Nid yw'n ymwneud â gofyn am rywbeth mwy na'r hyn y gall pobl ei ddisgwyl: mae a wnelo â chyfiawnder, ac i mi, yma, os rhywbeth, mae'n frwydr dros bobl lai cefnog nad ydynt yn cael cyfiawnder.
Mae anghysondebau yn y diwydiant pensiynau—credaf ei bod yn anffodus ein bod wedi symud i'r cyfnod wedi 1979 pan oedd trachwant yn dda a dadreoleiddio yn dda a phan ganiatawyd i gwmnïau optio allan, fel y dywedodd Mick Antoniw, ac i dynnu arian allan, nid darparu ar gyfer risg, a phan ddeuai'n bryd eu talu, câi bylchau yn y gronfa bensiwn eu talu gan y gweithwyr a dalodd i mewn i'r gronfa bensiwn honno. Credaf fod hynny'n hynod o drist i'r rhai dan sylw. A chofiwch, pe na baech yn eistedd yma yn awr, gallai eich cynnwys chi.
Credaf fod safbwynt Mick Antoniw ynglŷn â'r comisiwn brenhinol ar bensiynau yn un da iawn. Nid wyf yn meddwl y cawn un, ond credaf ei fod yn rhywbeth y dylem ofyn amdano. Dai Lloyd—cynllun diogelwch pensiwn a gefnogir gan y Llywodraeth, y credai pawb ei fod yn mynd i fod yn ateb. Wel, rwy'n credu bod gweithwyr ASW wedi darganfod nad oedd, a chredaf fod hynny'n drist, oherwydd pan gyflwynir cynlluniau y disgwylir iddynt fynd i'r afael â rhywbeth lle y mae pobl yn gwybod bod yna anghysondebau, mae'n drist iawn eu bod yn methu. Ac mae gweithwyr ASW yn barhaus—. Ac rwy'n mynd i ddal ati i ddefnyddio'r gair hwn—tegwch.
Ac rwy'n falch fod y Gweinidog wedi disgrifio ASW fel 'anghyfiawnder dybryd'. Maent wedi eu hamddifadu o'r hyn a ddisgwylient. Mae'r Llywodraeth yn cefnogi'r cyn-weithwyr ASW, ac rwy'n falch eu bod yn cael cefnogaeth gan Lywodraeth Cymru. Rwy'n falch iawn—ac rwy'n credu bod Dai Lloyd wedi gwneud y penderfyniad iawn i alw am bleidlais a enwir i bawb sy'n ei gefnogi, ond ni all fod yn iawn fod pobl yn heneiddio bellach, pobl sydd wedi ymddeol yn eu 60au ac sydd, ar ddiwedd eu 70au yn dal i boeni am y pensiwn, ac fel y gall Bethan Sayed ddweud wrthych hefyd gydag ymgyrch Visteon, bu llawer o bobl farw tra'n aros am gyfiawnder pensiwn. Credaf mai dyna un o'r pethau tristaf o bosibl yw fod pobl yn aros am gyfiawnder ac nad ydynt byth yn ei gael, ac efallai y bydd cyfran ohono'n gwneud ei ffordd at eu perthnasau agosaf, ond ni fyddant hwy byth yn cael y cyfiawnder y buont yn ymgyrchu drosto ac yn ymladd amdano.
Credaf y dylem gefnogi gweithwyr ASW i'r carn. Dylem ddweud, 'Credwn eich bod yn haeddu cyfiawnder, a chredwn y dylai Llywodraeth San Steffan ddarparu'r arian', sydd, o safbwynt gwariant Llywodraeth, yn swm cymharol fach—un taflegryn yn llai efallai a gallem ei dalu. Rwy'n credu ein bod eisiau sefyllfa mewn gwirionedd lle y darperir yr arian a bod pobl yn cael yr hyn y maent yn ei haeddu. Felly, rwy'n gobeithio y bydd pawb yn yr ystafell hon yn ei gefnogi.
Thank you. The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Therefore, we defer voting under this item until voting time.
Diolch. Y cynnig yw derbyn y cynnig. A oes unrhyw Aelod yn gwrthwynebu? [Gwrthwynebiad.] Felly, rydym yn gohirio'r pleidleisio ar yr eitem hon tan y cyfnod pleidleisio.
Gohiriwyd y pleidleisio tan y cyfnod pleidleisio.
Voting deferred until voting time.
Detholwyd y gwelliannau canlynol: gwelliannau 1 a 2 yn enw Rhun ap Iorwerth.
The following amendments have been selected: amendments 1 and 2 in the name of Rhun ap Iorwerth.
Item 7 is the Welsh Conservatives' debate on the Welsh rate of income tax, and I call on Nick Ramsay to move the motion—Nick Ramsay.
Eitem 7 yw dadl y Ceidwadwyr Cymreig ar gyfraddau treth incwm Cymru, a galwaf ar Nick Ramsay i wneud y cynnig—Nick Ramsay.
Cynnig NDM6921 Darren Millar
Cynnig bod Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru:
1. Yn cydnabod pwysigrwydd hanfodol denu pobl, busnesau a buddsoddiad i Gymru fel modd o dyfu refeniw treth yng Nghymru.
2. Yn galw ar Lywodraeth Cymru i ymrwymo i beidio â chodi Cyfraddau Treth Incwm Cymru am weddill y Pumed Cynulliad.
Motion NDM6921 Darren Millar
To propose that the National Assembly for Wales:
1. Recognises the vital importance of attracting people, businesses and investment to Wales as a means of growing tax revenue in Wales.
2. Calls on the Welsh Government to commit to not raise the Welsh Rate of Income Tax for the remainder of the Fifth Assembly.
Cynigiwyd y cynnig.
Motion moved.
Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I'm pleased to move this motion today, brought forward by the Welsh Conservatives. To quote Senator Bobby Kennedy in 1966:
'Like it or not we live in interesting times.'
Well, like it or not, we again today live in interesting times, and devolved taxation, whether you like that or not, is with us. As we know, from April 2019, this institution will have the power to vary the rates of income tax, a powerful tool in addition to other new Welsh taxes—land transaction tax and landfill disposal tax. This is in addition to existing powers to raise and set business rates. In total, the Welsh Government is set to get around £5 billion in tax revenue from April.
So, how do we make this work best for the people of Wales? More importantly, how can we use these new taxation levers to generate growth in our economy? These are, of course, questions that we never needed to ask in Wales until now. They are big questions about how we manage the public finances, how we take people with us on this journey, how we develop a better relationship between Government and the people, a relationship fitting for the modern age, a relationship fitting to the new age of accountability for this Assembly.
It's been a privilege to be on the Assembly's Finance Committee over the last few years whilst these issues have been discussed at great length. A lot of good ideas have come forward from Members of all parties. That's how it should be. Tax devolution does not just belong to one party, one group, it belongs to all of us. It's our responsibility to get this right, in the areas where tax is already devolved and in the area of income tax as well, to make a success of the new powers, and as we so often say on Finance Committee, not just to make a success of it but to make Wales a beacon of best practice.
How can we attract job creators, investors and entrepreneurs to Wales to set up new businesses, create new jobs and enrich our economy? Taxation can help us do all of this, but only if these new powers are used in the right way to attract support and nurture investment, rather than discouraging ambition and aspiration. Evidence shows that low-tax economies are more favourable to business start-ups, attract job creators, and can actually increase revenue because you're encouraging greater economic activity.
This means, at the end of the day, we have more money to invest in first-class public services. Let's be honest, our public services do need investment, we can't allow Wales to fall behind other parts of the UK in terms of how much we have to spend to invest in schools and hospitals. So, I want the Welsh economy to be more competitive. The Welsh Conservatives want the economy to be more competitive. I think every party represented in this Chamber would in their heart of hearts want that to happen. We need to be encouraging people to come here to set up new businesses and create those new skilled jobs we need.
Professor Gerry Holtham was one of the first academics to look at what benefits devolved taxation could bring to Wales. He pointed out that making some minor adjustments to the basic rate of income tax would, aside from not raising huge amounts of money, actually have very little consequence for the tax base, since basic rate taxpayers tend to be less mobile then higher rate taxpayers. In fact, he concluded that the most productive change to taxation would be to drop the upper rates by 10p in the pound, since this could have the effect of drawing in higher rate taxpayers from across the border, as well as encouraging entrepreneurship and aspiration at home.
One thing is clear, we need to fundamentally grow the Welsh tax base and improve its structure. Currently, we have just two thirds of the proportion of higher rate taxpayers in Wales compared to England, and just a quarter of the proportion of additional rate taxpayers.
Diolch, Ddirprwy Lywydd. Rwy'n falch o wneud y cynnig hwn heddiw a gyflwynwyd gan y Ceidwadwyr Cymreig. I ddyfynnu'r Seneddwr Bobby Kennedy yn 1966:
Hoffi'r peth neu beidio, rydym yn byw mewn cyfnod diddorol.
Wel, hoffi'r peth neu beidio, rydym eto heddiw'n byw mewn cyfnod diddorol, ac mae trethi datganoledig gyda ni, pa un a ydych yn hoffi hynny ai peidio. Fel y gwyddom, o Ebrill 2019, bydd gan y sefydliad hwn bŵer i amrywio cyfraddau treth incwm, sy'n arf pwerus yn ogystal â threthi Cymreig newydd eraill—y dreth trafodiadau tir a'r dreth gwarediadau tirlenwi. Mae hyn yn ychwanegol at bwerau sydd eisoes yn bodoli i godi ac i bennu ardrethi busnes. Gyda'i gilydd, mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn mynd i gael oddeutu £5 biliwn mewn refeniw treth o fis Ebrill ymlaen.
Felly, sut y mae gwneud i hyn weithio yn y ffordd orau er budd bobl Cymru? Yn bwysicach, sut y gallwn ddefnyddio'r ysgogiadau treth newydd hyn i gynhyrchu twf yn ein heconomi? Wrth gwrs, mae'r rhain yn gwestiynau na fu angen inni eu gofyn yng Nghymru hyd yma. Maent yn gwestiynau mawr ynglŷn â sut y rheolwn arian cyhoeddus, sut yr awn â'r bobl gyda ni ar y daith hon, sut y datblygwn berthynas well rhwng y Llywodraeth a'r bobl, perthynas sy'n briodol ar gyfer yr oes fodern, perthynas sy'n briodol ar gyfer oes newydd o atebolrwydd i'r Cynulliad hwn.
Bu'n fraint cael bod ar Bwyllgor Cyllid y Cynulliad dros yr ychydig flynyddoedd diwethaf wrth i'r materion hyn gael eu trafod yn fanwl. Daeth llawer o syniadau da gan Aelodau o bob plaid. Dyna sut y dylai fod. Nid yw datganoli trethi'n fater sy'n perthyn i un blaid, un grŵp yn unig, mae'n perthyn i bob un ohonom. Ein cyfrifoldeb ni yw cael hyn yn iawn, yn y meysydd lle y mae trethi eisoes wedi'u datganoli ac ym maes treth incwm yn ogystal, er mwyn i'r pwerau newydd allu llwyddo, ac fel y dywedwn mor aml yn y Pwyllgor Cyllid, nid yn unig er mwyn iddo lwyddo ond er mwyn gwneud Cymru'n batrwm o arferion gorau.
Sut y gallwn ddenu rhai sy'n creu swyddi, buddsoddwyr ac entrepreneuriaid i Gymru i sefydlu busnesau newydd, creu swyddi newydd a chyfoethogi ein heconomi? Gall trethi ein helpu i wneud hyn oll, ond rhaid defnyddio'r pwerau newydd hyn yn y ffordd iawn er mwyn denu cefnogaeth a meithrin buddsoddiad, yn hytrach na mygu uchelgais a dyhead. Dengys tystiolaeth fod economïau trethiant isel yn fwy ffafriol i fusnesau newydd, gallant ddenu'r rhai sy'n creu swyddi, a gallant gynyddu refeniw mewn gwirionedd am eich bod yn annog mwy o weithgarwch economaidd.
Yn y pen draw, golyga hyn fod gennym fwy o arian i'w fuddsoddi mewn gwasanaethau cyhoeddus o'r radd flaenaf. Gadewch inni fod yn onest, mae angen buddsoddi ar ein gwasanaethau cyhoeddus, ni allwn ganiatáu i Gymru lusgo ar ôl rhannau eraill o'r DU o ran faint o arian sydd gennym i'w wario ar ei fuddsoddi mewn ysgolion ac ysbytai. Felly, rwyf eisiau i economi Cymru fod yn fwy cystadleuol. Mae'r Ceidwadwyr Cymreig eisiau i'r economi fod yn fwy cystadleuol. Credaf y byddai pob plaid a gynrychiolir yn y Siambr hon yn dymuno gweld hynny'n digwydd. Mae angen inni annog pobl i ddod yma i sefydlu busnesau newydd a chreu'r swyddi medrus newydd sydd eu hangen arnom.
Yr Athro Gerry Holtham oedd un o'r academyddion cyntaf i ystyried y manteision y gallai trethi datganoledig eu creu i Gymru. Tynnodd sylw at y ffaith mai ychydig iawn o effaith a gâi gwneud mân addasiadau i gyfradd sylfaenol y dreth incwm ar y sylfaen drethu, ar wahân i beidio â chodi symiau enfawr o arian, am fod y rhai sy'n talu treth incwm ar y gyfradd sylfaenol yn tueddu i fod yn llai symudol na threthdalwyr ar y gyfradd uwch. Yn wir, daeth i'r casgliad mai'r newid mwyaf cynhyrchiol i drethiant fyddai gostyngiad o 10c yn y bunt i'r cyfraddau uwch gan y gallai arwain at ddenu trethdalwyr ar y gyfradd uwch o'r ochr arall i'r ffin, yn ogystal ag annog entrepreneuriaeth a dyhead yng Nghymru.
Un peth sy'n glir yw bod angen inni dyfu sylfaen drethu Cymru'n sylfaenol a gwella ei strwythur. Ar hyn o bryd, dwy ran o dair yn unig o'r gyfran o drethdalwyr ar y gyfradd uwch sydd gennym yng Nghymru o gymharu â Lloegr, a chwarter yn unig o'r gyfran o drethdalwyr ar y gyfradd ychwanegol.
Will you take an intervention?
A wnewch chi dderbyn ymyriad?
Yes.
Gwnaf.
Firstly, I'm sure you'd join with me in paying credit to the work that Steffan Lewis did in terms of taxation during his time here. The point I was going to make, though, is, yes, we have compared to England, but if you exclude London and the south-east of England, all of a sudden, we're not that different. We know that, in terms of tax raised, the south-east of England and the south of England are the only two net payers in.
Yn gyntaf, rwy'n siŵr y gwnewch chi ymuno â mi i ganmol y gwaith a wnaeth Steffan Lewis ar drethiant yn ystod ei amser yma. Y pwynt yr oeddwn yn mynd i'w wneud, fodd bynnag, yw ein bod wedi cymharu â Lloegr, ond o hepgor Llundain a de-ddwyrain Lloegr, yn sydyn iawn nid ydym mor wahanol â hynny. O ran y trethi a godir, gwyddom mai de-ddwyrain Lloegr a de Lloegr yw'r unig ddwy ardal sy'n talu mwy o dreth nag a gânt yn ôl.
I quite agree with both the points you made there, Mike. Firstly, on Steffan Lewis, he was an invaluable member of the Finance Committee since 2016 when he joined it. I know we all feel not just the sadness of his loss in this Chamber but also the sadness of the loss of that spirit he brought to the committee. He always had a different viewpoint, and in issues like the devolution of taxation, when we do get income tax devolved, his voice will be one that will be missing, actually, from an analysis of that debate, and that is tragic, and our thoughts are with his family at this time.
Secondly, you are right: if you look at the south-east of England separate from England then yes, it does distort the tax base across the whole of the UK. There was a difference between Wales and other parts of the UK as well, so that was the point I was trying to make, but you are right, it is not as great as if you include the south-east of England, and we're not going to have an economy like the south-east of England—we wouldn't want it, either—certainly not in the next few years. Both valid points.
So, it's important that we retain taxpayers and that we grow the tax base. The current situation is unsustainable, and I don't say 'unsustainable' in the way that we normally would in these debates, because clearly the tax take will be the tax take and it will be there, but if we want to have a tax take meeting our aspirations, matching our aspirations, then I think we would all agree that we need to increase that, and that means having competitive tax rates.
If we want to be a more prosperous country, we need a taxation system that encourages wage growth. I don't apologise for wanting people in Wales to earn more, because if people earn more, there's a greater tax take and more money for public services.
Now, today we've heard a lot of talk about raising income tax. That seems to be where most of the discussion has focused. But we haven't heard much about varying tax rates anymore, income tax rates, or indeed lowering tax rates. I think we need to hear a little bit more about the benefits of that from the Welsh Government, about how we can generate more revenue by offering attractive rates of tax so that people want to come and live in Wales, and those people here who want to invest in our economy have the money to do so.
Whilst I recognise that, this year, income tax rates are remaining static, and that's to be welcomed, there have been questions over the Government's commitment to this, despite a promise in 2016 not to raise income tax until at least 2021. The old arguments about putting up taxes to increase revenue to spend are, of course, simplistic and outdated. Anything that stifles entrepreneurialism ultimately harms the economy and reduces the tax take.
We have a very long and porous border with England, and if Wales has a higher rate of income tax over time, you would see a rise in people moving across the border, away from here, taking businesses, jobs and economic potential to England, and the tax would go to the UK Treasury, not the Welsh Treasury. Before Mike Hedges intervenes, if he's thinking of that, I appreciate that it's not quite as straightforward as saying that would happen overnight, but that would be the danger that we would risk over a medium-term, a long-term situation. None of us want that to happen.
When Scotland increased rates of tax in 2017 for both the higher and additional rates by a penny in the pound, thousands of higher and additional rate taxpayers left. There was a black hole in the nation's finances there. We need to avoid that here, and I appreciate that Wales isn't Scotland—I'm sure the Minister will make that point. Often, we say that Wales isn't England on this side of the Chamber, so I would appreciate where that point would come from. But nonetheless, Scotland has gone some way down this line. They are ahead of us by a few years in income tax devolution, so there are valuable lessons that can be learned and should be learned.
The devolution of income tax does, of course, fit into a broader landscape of tax devolution and greater accountability. LTT and LDT are already with us, and, of course, the Welsh Government is considering new taxes. We know a vacant land tax is in the pipeline to test the system; a tourism tax was jettisoned, but there's still an open door for local authorities to do that; a social care tax, we've had some discussion about that. So, there are all manner of taxes coming down the line, and I think it's important that we look at the benefits of low taxation as well as new taxes such as a social care tax, which may have some advantages over the longer term.
Deputy Llywydd, I'm looking forward to hearing what all Members have to give to this debate today. We've looked at the amendments, so, turning briefly to both the amendments, we'll be supporting amendment 1, which enhances, we feel, the motion. We will be opposing amendment 2—although we certainly support a mature debate about the issues—tabled in the name of Rhun ap Iorwerth. But we feel that, at this point, that amendment waters down our original motion, which is talking about the benefits of a low-taxation economy. So, whilst we support the spirit of that amendment, we will not be supporting it at the end of this debate.
So, let's have a mature debate about how we can use taxation levers to make the Welsh economy more dynamic and prosperous, and let's clear up any confusion about the Welsh Government's tax plans for the remainder of this Assembly term. I look forward to hearing what the Minister has to say in terms of hopefully sticking with that commitment not to raise tax rates, the Welsh rate of income tax, up until 2021, and hopefully keeping a competitive and low-tax economy beyond that.
Rwy'n cytuno'n llwyr â'r pwyntiau a wnaethoch yn y fan honno, Mike. Yn gyntaf, ar Steffan Lewis, roedd yn aelod gwerthfawr o'r Pwyllgor Cyllid ers iddo ddod yn aelod ohono yn 2016. Gwn ein bod i gyd yn teimlo, nid yn unig y tristwch o'i golli yn y Siambr hon, ond hefyd y tristwch o golli'r ysbryd a gyfrannodd yn y pwyllgor. Roedd ganddo bob amser safbwynt gwahanol, ac mewn materion fel datganoli trethiant, pan ddatganolir treth incwm fe welwn golli ei lais wrth ddadansoddi'r ddadl honno, ac mae hynny'n drasig, ac mae ein meddyliau gyda'i deulu ar yr adeg hon.
Yn ail, rydych yn gywir: os edrychwch ar dde-ddwyrain Lloegr ar wahân i Loegr, ydy, mae'n ystumio'r sylfaen drethu ar draws y DU gyfan. Roedd gwahaniaeth rhwng Cymru a rhannau eraill o'r DU yn ogystal, felly dyna oedd y pwynt y ceisiwn ei wneud, ond rydych yn gywir, nid yw mor fawr os nad ydych yn cynnwys de-ddwyrain Lloegr, ac nid ydym yn mynd i gael economi fel de-ddwyrain Lloegr—ni fyddem ei heisiau, chwaith—nid yn y blynyddoedd nesaf yn sicr. Dau bwynt dilys.
Felly, mae'n bwysig ein bod yn cadw trethdalwyr a'n bod yn tyfu'r sylfaen drethu. Mae'r sefyllfa bresennol yn anghynaliadwy, ac nid wyf yn dweud 'anghynaliadwy' yn y ffordd y byddem fel arfer yn ei ddefnyddio yn y dadleuon hyn, oherwydd yn amlwg bydd yr hyn a dderbynnir mewn trethi yno, ond os ydym am gael derbyniadau treth sy'n bodloni ein dyheadau, sy'n cyd-fynd â'n huchelgeisiau, credaf y byddem oll yn cytuno fod angen inni ei gynyddu, ac mae hynny'n golygu cael cyfraddau treth cystadleuol.
Os ydym am fod yn wlad fwy ffyniannus, mae angen system dreth sy'n annog twf cyflogau. Nid wyf yn ymddiheuro am fod eisiau i bobl yng Nghymru ennill mwy, oherwydd os yw pobl yn ennill mwy, mae'r derbyniad treth yn fwy a cheir mwy o arian ar gyfer gwasanaethau cyhoeddus.
Nawr, clywsom lawer o sôn heddiw am godi treth incwm. Ymddengys mai dyna lle y canolbwyntiodd y rhan fwyaf o'r drafodaeth. Ond ni chlywsom lawer am amrywio cyfraddau treth mwyach, cyfraddau treth incwm, na gostwng cyfraddau treth yn wir. Credaf fod angen inni glywed ychydig mwy am fanteision hynny gan Lywodraeth Cymru, ynglŷn â sut y gallwn gynhyrchu mwy o refeniw drwy gynnig cyfraddau treth deniadol fel bod pobl yn dymuno dod i fyw yng Nghymru, a bod y bobl yma sy'n awyddus i fuddsoddi yn ein heconomi ag arian i wneud hynny.
Er fy mod yn cydnabod bod cyfraddau treth incwm yn aros yn sefydlog eleni, ac mae hynny i'w groesawu, cafwyd cwestiynau ynglŷn ag ymrwymiad y Llywodraeth i hyn, er gwaethaf addewid yn 2016 i beidio â chodi treth incwm tan 2021 ar y cynharaf. Mae'r hen ddadleuon ynglŷn â chodi trethi i gynyddu refeniw i'w wario yn rhy syml ac wedi dyddio wrth gwrs. Mae unrhyw beth sy'n mygu entrepreneuriaeth yn niweidio'r economi yn y pen draw ac yn lleihau derbyniadau treth.
Mae gennym ffin hir a thyllog iawn â Lloegr, ac os oes gan Gymru gyfradd uwch o dreth incwm, dros amser byddech yn gweld cynnydd yn y bobl sy'n symud ar draws y ffin, oddi yma, gan fynd â busnesau, swyddi a photensial economaidd i Loegr, a byddai'r dreth yn mynd i Drysorlys y DU, nid i Drysorlys Cymru. Cyn i Mike Hedges ymyrryd, os yw'n meddwl gwneud hynny, rwy'n sylweddoli nad yw mor syml â dweud y byddai hynny'n digwydd dros nos, ond dyna fyddai'r perygl dros y tymor canolig, sefyllfa hirdymor. Nid oes neb ohonom am i hynny ddigwydd.
Pan gynyddodd yr Alban gyfraddau treth yn 2017 ar gyfer y cyfraddau uwch ac ychwanegol o geiniog yn y bunt, gwelwyd miloedd o drethdalwyr y gyfradd uwch ac ychwanegol yn gadael. Cafwyd twll du yng nghyllid y wlad. Mae angen inni osgoi hynny yma, ac rwy'n sylweddoli nad yr Alban yw Cymru—rwy'n siŵr y bydd y Gweinidog yn gwneud y pwynt hwnnw. Yn aml, rydym ni ar yr ochr hon i'r Siambr yn dweud nad Cymru yw Lloegr, felly buaswn yn derbyn y sail dros y pwynt hwnnw. Ond serch hynny, mae'r Alban wedi mynd beth o'r ffordd i lawr y llwybr hwn. Maent ar y blaen inni o rai blynyddoedd o safbwynt datganoli treth incwm, felly mae gwersi gwerthfawr y gellir eu dysgu ac y dylid eu dysgu.
Wrth gwrs, mae datganoli treth incwm yn ffitio i dirlun ehangach datganoli trethi a mwy o atebolrwydd. Mae'r dreth trafodiadau tir a'r dreth gwarediadau tirlenwi eisoes gyda ni, ac wrth gwrs, mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn ystyried trethi newydd. Gwyddom fod treth ar dir gwag ar y gweill i roi prawf ar y system; cafodd treth twristiaeth ei gwrthod, ond mae'r drws yn dal ar agor i awdurdodau lleol wneud hynny; treth gofal cymdeithasol, cawsom rywfaint o drafodaeth ynglŷn â hynny. Felly, mae pob math o drethi ar y ffordd, ac rwy'n credu ei bod hi'n bwysig inni edrych ar fanteision trethiant isel yn ogystal â threthi newydd megis treth gofal cymdeithasol, a gallai fod rhai manteision i hynny yn y tymor hwy.
Ddirprwy Lywydd, rwy'n edrych ymlaen at glywed yr hyn sydd gan bob Aelod i'w gyfrannu i'r ddadl hon heddiw. Rydym wedi edrych ar y gwelliannau, felly, gan droi'n fyr at y ddau welliant, byddwn yn cefnogi gwelliant 1 am ein bod yn teimlo ei fod yn gwella'r cynnig. Byddwn yn gwrthwynebu gwelliant 2 a gyflwynwyd yn enw Rhun ap Iorwerth, er y buaswn yn sicr yn cefnogi dadl aeddfed ar y materion sy'n codi. Ond rydym yn teimlo, ar hyn o bryd, fod y gwelliant yn glastwreiddio ein cynnig gwreiddiol, sy'n sôn am fanteision economi treth isel. Felly, er ein bod yn cefnogi ysbryd y gwelliant hwnnw, ni fyddwn yn ei gefnogi ar ddiwedd y ddadl hon.
Felly, gadewch inni gael dadl aeddfed ynglyn â sut y gallwn ddefnyddio ysgogiadau treth i wneud economi Cymru yn fwy deinamig a ffyniannus, a gadewch inni gael gwared ar unrhyw ddryswch ynghylch cynlluniau treth Llywodraeth Cymru am weddill y tymor Cynulliad hwn. Edrychaf ymlaen at glywed beth sydd gan y Gweinidog i'w ddweud o ran cadw at yr ymrwymiad hwnnw i beidio â chodi cyfraddau treth, cyfradd treth incwm Cymru, hyd nes 2021, a chadw economi dreth isel a chystadleuol y tu hwnt i hynny, gobeithio.
Thank you. I have selected the two amendments to the motion, and I call on Rhun ap Iorwerth to move amendments 1 and 2, tabled in his name. Rhun.
Diolch. Rwyf wedi dethol y ddau welliant i'r cynnig, a galwaf ar Rhun ap Iorwerth i gynnig gwelliannau 1 a 2 a gyflwynwyd yn ei enw. Rhun.
Gwelliant 1—Rhun ap Iorwerth
Ychwanegu ar ddiwedd pwynt 1:
'ond yn pwysleisio blaenoriaethu sicrhau twf economaidd a chynnydd mewn refeniw drwy gefnogi busnes cynhenid.'
Gwelliant 2—Rhun ap Iorwerth
Dileu pwynt 2 ac yn ei le rhoi:
Yn annog trafodaeth sifig aeddfed ynglyn â sut orau i ddefnyddio pwerau trethiannol datganoledig newydd er budd economaidd a chymdeithasol Cymru.
Amendment 1—Rhun ap Iorwerth
Insert at end of point 1:
'but emphasises the priority of ensuring economic growth and increases in revenue through supporting indigenous businesses.'
Amendment 2—Rhun ap Iorwerth
Delete point 2 and replace with:
Promotes a mature civic discussion regarding how best to use new devolved taxation powers for the economic and social benefit of Wales.
Cynigiwyd gwelliannau 1 a 2.
Amendments 1 and 2 moved.
Diolch yn fawr iawn, Diprwy Lywydd. To throw Bobby Kennedy's quote straight back at you, Nick Ramsay—whether we like it or not, we live in interesting times. When it comes to the devolution of taxes, we like it very much on this side of the National Assembly, because these are historic times.
Diolch yn fawr iawn, Ddirprwy Lywydd. I daflu dyfyniad Bobby Kennedy yn syth yn ôl atoch, Nick Ramsay—pa un a ydym yn hoffi hynny ai peidio, rydym yn byw mewn cyfnod diddorol. O ran datganoli trethi, rydym yn hoffi hynny'n fawr iawn ar yr ochr hon i'r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol, oherwydd mae hwn yn gyfnod hanesyddol.
Mae'r rhain yn ddyddiau hanesyddol i ni fel cenedl. Maen nhw'n ddyddiau hanesyddol i ni fel corff democrataidd newydd. Mae yna drethi neilltuol Cymreig yn cael eu codi am y tro cyntaf yn yr oes fodern, ac mae o'n gam pwysig i ni o ran aeddfedrwydd y Cynulliad, aeddfedrwydd Llywodraeth Cymru a'r angen am newid diwylliant—am feddwl mewn ffordd wahanol ynglŷn â gwaith y Llywodraeth.
Mae'r Llywodraeth yn cael ei gorfodi i feddwl mewn ffordd fwy creadigol. Yn hynny o beth, wrth gwrs, does dim rhaid newid cyfraddau trethiant er mwyn i bwerau trethiant fod yn werthfawr. Fel y clywsom ni gan lefarydd y Ceidwadwyr: cynyddu sail y trethiant sydd yn bwysig. Dyna'r her rŵan: gwneud yn siŵr bod cyfleon economaidd yn cael eu creu sydd yn creu rhagor o dreth i gael ei thalu i wario ar wasanaethau yng Nghymru. Dyna pam, yn sicr, rydym ni'n cyd-fynd â chymal 1 yn y cynnig heddiw—
'cydnabod pwysigrwydd hanfodol denu pobl, busnesau a buddsoddiad i Gymru fel modd o dyfu refeniw treth yng Nghymru'—
ond yn wir am ychwanegu ato fo, oherwydd mae yna lawer fwy na hynny iddi hi. Beth y mae ein gwelliant ni yn ei ddweud ydy bod ishio ychwanegu at hynny fod angen
'pwysleisio blaenoriaethu sicrhau twf economaidd a chynnydd mewn refeniw drwy gefnogi busnes cynhenid.'
Mae hynny'n gwbl allweddol, wrth gwrs, a dwi'n gobeithio cael cefnogaeth i'r gwelliant hwnnw.
Er nad oes angen, yn angenrheidiol, newid cyfraddau treth, mae'n rhaid i ni, wrth gwrs, fod yn barod i feddwl yn greadigol ynglŷn â sut i ddefnyddio pwerau i amrywio cyfraddau, a dyna pam na allwn ni gytuno i gefnogi cymal 2—nid oherwydd ein bod ni, fel plaid, ar hyn o bryd eisiau cynyddu treth incwm—dŷn ni ddim wedi dod i benderfyniadau ar hynny eto—ond am ein bod ni'n meddwl bod, rywsut, mynnu nad ydy'r Llywodraeth yn defnyddio'r pwerau yn gosod cynsail braidd yn anffodus ar ddechrau'r cyfnod yma o fabwysiadu pwerau trethiant am y tro cyntaf.
Mae'n rhaid inni fod yn barod i feddwl yn greadigol. Mi gawsom ni ein sefydlu fel corff a oedd yn gwario yn unig. Mae dod yn gorff sydd yn trethu yn rhan o aeddfedrwydd sydd yn rhan o'r daith genedlaethol rydym ni'n mynd arni hi fel gwlad. Doedden ni ddim yn deddfu ar y dechrau. Rydyn ni'n deddfu erbyn hyn, ac mae hynny, dwi'n gobeithio, yn mynd i'n galluogi ni i ddatblygu dros amser ffordd Gymreig o ddeddfu. Mi oedd gennym ni yn hanesyddol, wrth gwrs, ffordd wahanol neilltuol Gymreig o ddeddfu, ac rydw i'n meddwl am ddeddfau Hywel Dda, a oedd yn drawiadol o wahanol i'r math o ddeddfu sydd wedi dod yn nodwedd o'r Deyrnas Unedig fodern. Does yna ddim byd a ddylai ein hatal ni rhag datblygu model trethu sy'n wahanol ac sy'n neilltuol Gymreig, a dyna pam fynnwn ni ddim gweld cyfyngu ar bŵer unrhyw Lywodraeth i wneud penderfyniadau a all fod o les i bobl Cymru. Beth rydym ni'n ei ddweud yn ein hail welliant ni, sydd yn dileu pwynt 2 y Ceidwadwyr, ydy ein bod ni am
'annog trafodaeth sifig aeddfed ynglŷn â sut orau i ddefnyddio pwerau trethiannol datganoledig newydd er budd economaidd a chymdeithasol Cymru.'
A beth rydym ni'n ei feddwl wrth hynny ydy ein bod ni'n mynd ar daith tuag at greu model Cymreig o drethiant, ac rydw i'n gwahodd y Ceidwadwyr hefyd i wneud hynny.
These are historic days for us as a nation. They are historic times for us as a democratic body. There are uniquely Welsh taxes being levied for the very first time in modern times, and it’s an important step for us in terms of the maturity of this Assembly, the maturity of the Welsh Government and the need for a culture change—the need to think differently about the work of Government.
The Government is being forced to think more creatively and, in that regard, of course, we don’t have to change taxation rates in order for taxation powers to be valuable. As we heard from the Conservative spokesperson: increasing the tax base is what’s important. That’s the challenge now: to ensure that economic opportunities are created that create a greater tax base that can then, of course, be spent on Welsh services, and that is why we agree with clause 1 of today’s motion, recognising
‘the vital importance of attracting people, businesses and investment to Wales as a means of growing taxing revenue in Wales.’
But, indeed, we wish to add to that, because there is far more than that entailed in this. What our amendment says is that we need to emphasise
'the priority of ensuring economic growth and increases in revenue through supporting indigenous businesses.'
That is crucially important, of course, and I do hope to have support for that amendment.
Although we don’t necessarily need to change tax rates, we must be willing to think creatively about how we use powers to vary tax rates, and that’s why we can’t agree to support clause 2 of the motion, not because we as a party at the moment wish to increase income tax—we haven’t come to decisions on that as of yet—but because we think that insisting that the Government doesn’t use those powers sets quite an unfortunate precedent at the beginning of this period, as we adopt taxation powers for the very first time.
We must be ready to think creatively. We were established as a body that was a spending body, but becoming a body that also levies taxes is part of the maturing process that is part of the national journey that we’re on as a nation. We didn’t legislate at the outset. We are now a legislature, and I hope that that has enabled us to develop, over time, a Welsh approach to legislation. We historically did have a uniquely Welsh way of legislating—I’m thinking of the laws of Hywel Dda, which were strikingly different to the legislation that has become characteristic of the modern United Kingdom—and there is nothing that should preclude us from developing taxation models that are different and uniquely Welsh. That is why I wouldn’t want to see limitations placed on the power of any Government to make decisions that could be of benefit to the people of Wales. What we say in our second amendment, which deletes point 2, is that we want to promote
‘a mature civic discussion regarding how best to use new devolved taxation powers for the economic and social benefit of Wales.’
And what we mean by that is that we are on a journey towards creating a uniquely Welsh taxation model, and I would also invite the Conservatives to do that.
If I can refer to the issue of raising taxes, which you mentioned. Raising taxes means to bring in taxes, of course, but all too often it's thought of as 'raising'—putting them up. Now, there are arguments for putting taxes up, and there are arguments, as we've heard from Nick Ramsay, on putting taxes down. What I want people to see in Wales in future, as we develop a tax system, is that people see that we are developing something that is fair. Now, we have limited tax powers currently. Over time, I hope and I’m confident that that will change. In a position where you have a whole host of tax and fiscal levers at your disposal, you can put some up and some down. It’s about finding a balance and making sure that people can see that the effort being made here is to have a system that is fair in terms of what is brought in, that the weight of responsibility on who pays most is fair, and that we are able to make a fair contribution, because of that tax system, into how we spend money on the public services. This is the start of a journey, and I don’t want to shackle this Government or any as we try to form that Welsh taxation system for the future.
Os caf gyfeirio at fater codi trethi, a grybwyllwyd gennych. Golyga codi trethi ddod â threthi i mewn, wrth gwrs, ond yn rhy aml meddylir amdano fel 'codi'—eu gwneud yn uwch. Nawr, ceir dadleuon dros godi trethi, a cheir dadleuon, fel y clywsom gan Nick Ramsay, dros ostwng trethi. Yr hyn rwyf am i bobl ei weld yng Nghymru yn y dyfodol, wrth inni ddatblygu system dreth, yw bod pobl yn gweld ein bod yn datblygu rhywbeth sy'n deg. Nawr, mae gennym bwerau treth cyfyngedig ar hyn o bryd. Dros amser, rwy'n gobeithio, ac rwy'n hyderus y bydd hynny'n newid. Mewn sefyllfa lle y mae gennych lu o ysgogiadau treth ac ysgogiadau ariannol ar gael at eich defnydd, gallwch godi rhai a gostwng rhai eraill. Mae'n ymwneud â sicrhau cydbwysedd a gwneud yn siŵr fod pobl yn gallu gweld bod ymdrech yn cael ei gwneud i sicrhau system sy'n deg o ran yr hyn a ddaw i mewn, fod pwysau'r cyfrifoldeb ar y sawl sy'n talu fwyaf yn deg, a'n bod yn gallu gwneud cyfraniad teg, oherwydd y system dreth honno, i'r modd y gwariwn arian ar wasanaethau cyhoeddus. Dechrau'r daith yw hyn, ac nid wyf am gyfyngu'r Llywodraeth hon nac unrhyw Lywodraeth wrth inni geisio ffurfio'r system dreth Gymreig honno ar gyfer y dyfodol.
Devolution was intended to significantly improve the economic performance of Wales. One of the arguments put forward in favour of devolution in the late 1990s was that Welsh interests were being neglected. We were told that the Welsh economy’s problems could only be solved by tailor-made solutions created here in Wales. And yet, Wales still has the weakest economy in the United Kingdom, Wales remains at the bottom of the gross value added league table for the UK home nations, and GVA in Wales remains well short of the original target of 90 per cent of the UK average. Earnings in Wales remain the lowest in the whole of the United Kingdom, and Wales, together with Northern Ireland, has registered the lowest growth rate of gross disposable household income per head in the last 10 years.
The devolution of powers to vary income tax in Wales from this April represents a significant milestone in the devolution process. It also represents a huge opportunity to radically change our economic development and environment. Government has no money of its own. Actually, taxation is the money raised by the Government to run the Government, as the Government finance their expenditure by imposing charges on citizens and corporate entities for the country, to Government to run by taxation and encourage or discourage certain economic decisions.
Government has no money, as we’ve said. Every penny that Government spends comes from the taxpayer. By allowing people to keep more of the money they earn, you allow them to make their own spending decisions. Low-tax economies are the most successful economies in the world. Cutting taxes boosts the economy, increases economic growth, and delivers higher living standards. Wales cannot afford a tax system that acts as a barrier to economic growth and aspiration. And increased tax burden on Welsh taxpayers increases the risk that it will restrain economic growth and cost jobs.
In its 2016 election manifesto, the Welsh Government made a commitment not to increase Welsh rates of income tax during their Assembly term. However, they have stated that they will carefully consider a tax rate to, and I quote,
‘ensure they continue to generate sufficient revenue’.
Just three months ago, the new First Minister said, quote:
‘I will not move away from our manifesto commitment unless I'm compelled to do so, but I don't rule out the possibility that circumstances could change in a way that do have that compelling impact.’
Quote closed.
It is clear that Welsh Government cannot be trusted to keep its manifesto pledges. Make no mistake, any tax increase would be aimed at and hit earners in the basic tax brackets. Most taxpayers in this situation would be forced to shoulder the burden of higher taxes. However, we should not underestimate the effect increased tax will have on outward migration. The Welsh Government-backed report ‘The Welsh Tax Base’ has acknowledged that there would likely be some behaviour response from taxpayers. These include individuals seeking alternative jobs, changing the number of hours worked, and migration out of Wales. We on this side of the Assembly are not the only ones with this concern. The CBI in Wales has rightly recognised that, in the code, raising Welsh income tax should be a last resort and not a first response, and in Plenary last month, Lynne Neagle spoke of her having to reassure constituents who had received a letter from Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs and were alarmed at the prospects of increasing tax in Wales. Minister, you have the power to put people's mind at rest. I ask you now: take this opportunity to reaffirm your election manifesto to promise and state clearly that income tax will not increase during the term of this Assembly. I know from this April that the basic rate reduces from 20 to 10 per cent, higher rate from to 40 to 30 per cent, additional rate from 45 to 35 per cent. It's a big impact that this is going to make, and there are certain areas, Minister—they are advocacy, broad base, compatibility, convenience, efficiency, restricted expenditure, exemptions, and simplicity—in taxation that are highly appreciated. I look forward to your response on these matters. Thank you.
Bwriadwyd i ddatganoli wella perfformiad economaidd Cymru yn sylweddol. Un o'r dadleuon a gyflwynwyd o blaid datganoli ar ddiwedd y 1990au oedd bod buddiannau Cymru'n cael eu hesgeuluso. Dywedwyd wrthym na ellid datrys problemau economi Cymru heblaw drwy atebion wedi'u teilwra yma yng Nghymru. Ac eto, gan Gymru y mae'r economi wannaf yn y Deyrnas Unedig, mae Cymru'n parhau i fod ar waelod tabl cynghrair gwledydd y DU o ran gwerth ychwanegol gros, ac mae gwerth ychwanegol gros yng Nghymru yn parhau gryn dipyn yn is na'r targed gwreiddiol o 90 y cant o gyfartaledd y DU. Enillion Cymru yw'r isaf yn y Deyrnas Unedig o hyd, a Chymru, ynghyd â Gogledd Iwerddon, a gofnododd y gyfradd twf isaf o incwm gwario gros aelwydydd y pen yn y 10 mlynedd diwethaf.
Mae datganoli pwerau i amrywio treth incwm yng Nghymru o fis Ebrill eleni yn garreg filltir bwysig yn y broses ddatganoli. Mae hefyd yn gyfle enfawr i weddnewid datblygiad ac amgylchedd ein heconomi yn radical. Nid oes gan y Llywodraeth unrhyw arian ei hun. Mewn gwirionedd, trethiant yw'r arian a godir gan y Llywodraeth i redeg y Llywodraeth, gan fod y Llywodraeth yn ariannu ei gwariant drwy osod taliadau ar ddinasyddion ac endidau corfforaethol ar gyfer y wlad, i Lywodraeth weithredu drwy drethiant ac annog neu atal penderfyniadau economaidd penodol.
Nid oes arian gan y Llywodraeth, fel rydym wedi dweud. Daw pob ceiniog y mae'r Llywodraeth yn ei wario oddi wrth y trethdalwr. Drwy alluogi pobl i gadw mwy o'r arian a enillant, rydych yn caniatáu iddynt wneud eu penderfyniadau gwario eu hunain. Economïau treth isel yw'r economïau mwyaf llwyddiannus yn y byd. Mae torri trethi'n hwb i'r economi, yn cynyddu twf economaidd, ac yn sicrhau safonau byw uwch. Ni all Cymru fforddio system dreth sy'n gweithredu fel rhwystr i dwf a dyhead economaidd. Ac mae'r baich treth ychwanegol ar drethdalwyr Cymru yn cynyddu'r risg y bydd yn rhwystro twf economaidd ac yn talu'r pris mewn swyddi.
Yn ei maniffesto ar gyfer etholiad 2016, gwnaeth Llywodraeth Cymru ymrwymiad i beidio â chynyddu cyfraddau treth incwm Cymru yn ystod eu tymor Cynulliad. Fodd bynnag, maent wedi dweud y byddant yn ystyried y gyfradd dreth yn ofalus, er mwyn, ac rwy'n dyfynnu,
sicrhau eu bod yn parhau i gynhyrchu refeniw digonol.
Dri mis yn ôl yn unig, dywedodd y Prif Weinidog newydd, ac rwy'n dyfynnu:
Nid wyf yn mynd i symud oddi wrth ymrwymiad ein maniffesto oni bai fy mod yn cael fy nghymell i wneud hynny, ond nid wyf yn diystyru'r posibilrwydd y gallai amgylchiadau newid mewn ffordd a allai fod yn gymhellgar o ran eu heffaith.
Cau'r dyfyniad.
Mae'n amlwg na ellir ymddiried yn Llywodraeth Cymru i gadw ei haddewidion maniffesto. Peidiwch â chamgymryd, byddai unrhyw gynnydd yn y dreth yn cael ei hanelu at, ac yn taro'r rhai sy'n talu'r gyfradd dreth sylfaenol. Byddai'r rhan fwyaf o drethdalwyr yn y sefyllfa hon yn gorfod ysgwyddo baich trethi uwch. Fodd bynnag, ni ddylem danbrisio'r effaith a gaiff cynyddu'r dreth ar allfudo. Mae'r adroddiad a gefnogwyd gan Lywodraeth Cymru, 'Sylfaen Dreth Cymru', wedi cydnabod ei bod yn debygol y byddai ymateb i'w weld yn ymddygiad trethdalwyr. Byddai'n cynnwys unigolion yn chwilio am swyddi eraill, a newid nifer yr oriau y byddent yn ei weithio, ac allfudo o Gymru. Nid ni ar yr ochr hon i'r Cynulliad yw'r unig rai sy'n pryderu yn y fath fodd. Mae Cydffederasiwn Diwydiant Prydain yng Nghymru wedi cydnabod yn briodol yn y cod y dylai codi treth incwm Cymru fod yn gam olaf ac nid yn ymateb cyntaf, ac mewn Cyfarfod Llawn y mis diwethaf, dywedodd Lynne Neagle ei bod yn gorfod tawelu meddyliau etholwyr a oedd wedi cael llythyr gan Gyllid a Thollau Ei Mawrhydi a'u bod yn bryderus ynglŷn â'r posibilrwydd o gynyddu'r dreth yng Nghymru. Weinidog, mae gennych bŵer i dawelu meddyliau pobl. Rwy'n gofyn i chi yn awr: manteisiwch ar y cyfle hwn i ailddatgan eich addewid ym maniffesto'r etholiad i ddatgan yn glir na fydd y dreth incwm yn codi yn ystod y tymor Cynulliad hwn. O fis Ebrill eleni, gwn fod y gyfradd sylfaenol yn gostwng o 20 i 10 y cant, a'r gyfradd uwch o 40 i 30 y cant, a'r gyfradd ychwanegol o 45 i 35 y cant. Mae hyn yn mynd i gael effaith fawr, a gwerthfawrogir rhai meysydd o fewn trethiant yn fawr, Weinidog—sef eiriolaeth, sylfaen eang, cysondeb, cyfleustra, effeithlonrwydd, gwariant cyfyngedig, eithriadau a symlrwydd. Edrychaf ymlaen at eich ymateb ar y materion hyn. Diolch.
Can I say how much I'm looking forward to joining this debate? The transition and the growth the National Assembly from a body that, largely, simply administered the public sector when it was established in 1999 to a Parliament that governs our country is one that will test all of us in different ways. And the Conservatives are to be commended in starting that test this afternoon.
I do not believe that the motion they've tabled meets the challenge of all the contributions we've heard this afternoon. I believe it is important that we do have a reasoned and a mature debate on taxation. We've just been through a budget round and we voted on the final budget of the Welsh Government, and what we heard on all sides of the Chamber, including my own side of the Chamber, were demands for additional spending. I can't think of a single contribution that was made, at any point in the debate on the budget, where any Member here asked for a reduction in expenditure. Everybody spent money with every speech and every utterance.
A gaf fi ddweud cymaint rwy'n edrych ymlaen at ymuno â'r ddadl hon? Mae'r newid a'r twf yn y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol o gorff a oedd, i raddau helaeth, ond yn gweinyddu'r sector cyhoeddus pan y'i sefydlwyd yn 1999 i Senedd sy'n llywodraethu ein gwlad yn un a fydd yn profi pob un ohonom mewn gwahanol ffyrdd. Ac mae'r Ceidwadwyr i'w canmol am gychwyn y prawf hwnnw y prynhawn yma.
Nid wyf yn credu bod y cynnig a gyflwynwyd ganddynt yn ateb her yr holl gyfraniadau a glywsom y prynhawn yma. Credaf ei bod hi'n bwysig inni gael dadl resymegol ac aeddfed ar drethiant. Rydym newydd fod drwy gylch cyllidebol ac wedi pleidleisio ar gyllideb derfynol Llywodraeth Cymru, a'r hyn a glywsom ar bob ochr i'r Siambr, gan gynnwys fy ochr fy hun i'r Siambr, oedd galwadau am wariant ychwanegol. Ni allaf feddwl am un cyfraniad a wnaed, ar unrhyw bwynt yn y ddadl ar y gyllideb, lle y gofynnodd unrhyw Aelod yma am ostyngiad mewn gwariant. Roedd pawb yn gwario arian gyda phob araith a phob ynganiad.
Will you take an intervention?
A wnewch chi dderbyn ymyriad?
I will take an intervention.
Fe gymeraf ymyriad.
I was just thinking, perhaps your salary might be a good place to start.
Roeddwn yn meddwl efallai y byddai eich cyflog yn lle da i ddechrau.
I'm glad that you're able to join us in this debate, Darren, and as I was talking about a mature conversation, Darren demonstrates exactly what I didn't mean. [Laughter.]
So, we've spent money and the Conservatives in this budget round managed something that not even the Welsh Liberal Democrats managed—I've offended Kirsty now—and that was to spend every pound twice and three times. Every debate we had here on the budget, the Conservative response to every challenge facing us wasn't to reform but to spend money. Everything has to have money thrown at it, but we won't reform. And that is a fundamental test of a Conservative character. The Conservatives know what they don't want, but they don't know what they do want. There's a consistency there at least.
And that means that we do need to have this debate. I don't have and I don't share the fetish for low taxation for low taxation's sake. I don't share that. I believe that we should have fair and reasonable taxation. Fair and reasonable taxation that allows us to invest in our people and in our country. A taxation system that reflects our values and our ambitions and our visions for Wales.
If our ambition is only to persuade people who wish to save tax pounds to move here and pay less tax, what does that say to a child growing up in Blaenau Gwent? What does that say to somebody—we had a debate earlier today on the rights of older people—the country we want you to grow old in—? [Interruption.] I can see you—in a moment. Give me chance to finish my sentence. The country we want you to grow old in is only interested in reduced taxation. We're not interested in the services that will sustain you and sustain your family.
Rwy'n falch eich bod wedi gallu ymuno â ni yn y ddadl hon, Darren, a chan fy mod yn siarad am sgwrs aeddfed, mae Darren yn dangos yn union yr hyn nad oeddwn yn ei olygu. [Chwerthin.]
Felly, rydym wedi gwario arian a llwyddodd y Ceidwadwyr yn y cylch cyllidebol hwn i wneud rhywbeth na lwyddodd Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru hyd yn oed i'w wneud—rwyf wedi digio Kirsty yn awr—sef gwario pob punt ddwywaith a theirgwaith. Ym mhob dadl a gawsom yma ar y gyllideb, ymateb y Ceidwadwyr i bob her sy'n ein hwynebu oedd gwario arian, nid diwygio. Rhaid taflu arian at bopeth, ond ni wnawn ddiwygio. A dyna'r prawf sylfaenol o'r cymeriad Ceidwadol. Mae'r Ceidwadwyr yn gwybod beth nad ydynt ei eisiau, ond nid ydynt yn gwybod beth y maent ei eisiau. Mae yno gysondeb o leiaf.
Ac mae hynny'n golygu bod angen inni gael y ddadl hon. Nid wyf yn rhannu'r ffetis am gael treth isel er mwyn cael treth isel yn unig. Nid wyf yn rhannu hynny. Credaf y dylem gael trethiant teg a rhesymol. Trethiant teg a rhesymol sy'n caniatáu i ni fuddsoddi yn ein pobl ac yn ein gwlad. System drethu sy'n adlewyrchu ein gwerthoedd a'n huchelgeisiau a'n gweledigaethau ar gyfer Cymru.
Os mai ein hunig uchelgais yw perswadio pobl sy'n dymuno arbed punnoedd treth i symud yma a thalu llai o dreth, beth y mae hynny'n ei ddweud wrth blentyn sy'n tyfu fyny ym Mlaenau Gwent? Beth y mae hynny'n ei ddweud wrth rywun—cawsom ddadl yn gynharach heddiw ar hawliau pobl hŷn—y wlad rydym eisiau i chi dyfu'n hen ynddi—? [Torri ar draws.] Gallaf eich gweld—mewn eiliad. Rhowch gyfle i mi orffen fy mrawddeg. Nid oes gan y wlad rydym eisiau i chi dyfu'n hen ynddi ddiddordeb mewn dim heblaw gostwng trethi. Nid oes gennym ddiddordeb yn y gwasanaethau a fydd yn eich cynnal ac yn cynnal eich teulu.
I'm grateful to the Member for giving way—I hunch my shoulders, but thank you. I wonder, might it be that we're saying to them that by having lower rates and perhaps encouraging more people to come and live and pay tax in Wales that there might be more revenue to support their services?
Diolch i'r Aelod am ildio—rwy'n crymu fy ysgwyddau, ond diolch ichi. Tybed efallai ein bod yn dweud wrthynt, drwy gael cyfraddau is ac efallai annog mwy o bobl i ddod i fyw a thalu treth yng Nghymru, y gallai fod mwy o refeniw i gynnal eu gwasanaethau?
You might be saying that, but I'm not sure it's an entirely convincing argument, but we'll have that debate.
So, what do we do as a response? I don't think it's good enough, quite honestly, for a Labour Government simply to make faces at the Conservatives and blame austerity for all our problems. One of the issues that we have to face and one of the tests that we have to face is to take responsibility for some of the issues that we face here today. It isn't good enough to say, 'As a Welsh Government, we want to spend more money on the health service, on local government, on education or whatever it happens to be. We've a power to raise that money, but we declined to use that power, but we still want to spend more.' That is no longer an adequate response to the challenges we face, and the challenges we face are greater than I think some people understand and realise.
When Theresa May stood in front of the Conservative conference in the autumn and said, 'Austerity is at an end', she was fundamentally wrong, and she was fundamentally misleading people, because if we take health spending at current levels and we assume that we will not be cutting the health service into the future, we will see reductions in expenditure in every other service in order to pay for that—every other service. And in Wales, we will see, as Nick Ramsay has pointed out and as Rhun ap Iorwerth has pointed out, a reduction in the tax base, which will further reduce our ability to tax in this country. So, we have to have a fundamental conversation about that and a mature conversation about that.
I wish the Welsh Government was accepting the two Plaid Cymru amendments this afternoon, because I think it does send a signal that we are willing to have that more mature debate, that we are willing to take responsibility, not simply to pass resolutions and make speeches, but to actually act as a Parliament, to say that, if we want better services, we will pay for those better services, to invest in our economy, to invest in our infrastructure, to do the things that a Parliament and a Government have to do and to do that based on our values.
And the final point I'd seek to make, with your patience, Deputy Presiding Officer, is this: I hope that fairness and sustainability will be at the heart of those values, because we have an opportunity through parts of this legislation to not simply move tax rates on income tax up or down, but to look at tax in a different way and to adopt and develop new forms of taxation and to change the model of taxation. And I think that that is a very, very exciting opportunity for us as well to not only invest in our people and our place but to do so in a way that reflects our ambitions and our values.
Efallai eich bod yn dweud hynny, ond nid wyf yn siŵr ei bod hi'n ddadl sy'n argyhoeddi'n llwyr, ond fe gawn y ddadl honno.
Felly, beth a wnawn fel ymateb? Ni chredaf ei bod hi'n ddigon da, a bod yn onest, i Lywodraeth Lafur fodloni ar wneud wynebau ar y Ceidwadwyr a rhoi'r bai ar gyni am ein holl broblemau. Un o'r problemau sy'n rhaid inni eu hwynebu ac un o'r profion sy'n rhaid inni eu hwynebu yw cymryd cyfrifoldeb am rai o'r materion a wynebwn yma heddiw. Nid yw'n ddigon da dweud, 'Fel Llywodraeth Cymru, rydym am wario mwy o arian ar y gwasanaeth iechyd, ar lywodraeth leol, ar addysg neu beth bynnag. Mae gennym bŵer i godi'r arian hwnnw, ond rydym wedi gwrthod defnyddio'r pŵer hwnnw, ond rydym yn dal eisiau gwario mwy.' Nid yw hwnnw'n ymateb digonol bellach i'r heriau a wynebwn, ac mae'r heriau sy'n ein hwynebu yn fwy nag y mae rhai pobl yn deall ac yn sylweddoli yn fy marn i.
Pan safodd Theresa May o flaen y gynhadledd Geidwadol yn yr hydref a dweud bod 'Cyni wedi dod i ben', roedd hi'n gyfan gwbl anghywir, ac roedd hi'n camarwain pobl yn sylfaenol, oherwydd os cymerwn wariant ar iechyd ar y lefelau presennol a'n bod yn cymryd yn ganiataol na fyddwn yn torri'r gwasanaeth iechyd yn y dyfodol, byddwn yn gweld gostyngiadau yng ngwariant pob gwasanaeth arall er mwyn talu am hynny—pob gwasanaeth arall. Ac yng Nghymru, fel y mae Nick Ramsay wedi nodi ac fel y mae Rhun ap Iorwerth wedi nodi, byddwn yn gweld gostyngiad yn y sylfaen drethu, a fydd yn cyfyngu ymhellach ar ein gallu i drethu yn y wlad hon. Felly, rhaid inni gael sgwrs sylfaenol am hynny a sgwrs aeddfed am hynny.
Hoffwn pe bai Llywodraeth Cymru yn derbyn y ddau welliant gan Blaid Cymru y prynhawn yma, oherwydd credaf eu bod yn dangos ein bod yn fodlon cael y ddadl fwy aeddfed honno, ein bod yn barod i gymryd cyfrifoldeb, nid yn unig i basio penderfyniadau a gwneud areithiau, ond i weithredu fel Senedd mewn gwirionedd, i ddweud, os ydym am weld gwell gwasanaethau, y byddwn yn talu am y gwasanaethau gwell hynny, i fuddsoddi yn ein heconomi, i fuddsoddi yn ein seilwaith, i wneud y pethau y mae Senedd a Llywodraeth yn gorfod eu gwneud ac i wneud hynny'n seiliedig ar ein gwerthoedd.
A'r pwynt olaf yr hoffwn ei wneud, gyda'ch amynedd, Ddirprwy Lywydd, yw hwn: rwy'n gobeithio y bydd tegwch a chynaliadwyedd wrth wraidd y gwerthoedd hynny, oherwydd mae gennym gyfle drwy rannau o'r ddeddfwriaeth hon nid yn unig i symud cyfraddau treth incwm i fyny neu i lawr, ond i edrych ar dreth mewn ffordd wahanol ac i fabwysiadu a datblygu mathau newydd o drethiant ac i newid y model trethiant. A chredaf fod hwnnw'n gyfle cyffrous iawn i ni hefyd, nid yn unig i fuddsoddi yn ein pobl a'n lle, ond i wneud hynny mewn ffordd sy'n adlewyrchu ein dyheadau a'n gwerthoedd.
There's something about taxes going up and down that captures the nation's attention—VAT, petrol prices, alcohol duty, council tax, income tax, national insurance. They're mostly not devolved, of course, but regular stars of the UK budget's headlines. And it's that one point in the year when we focus on how a Government will be giving us back our money with one hand and then taking it back with the other. Governments need a tax take and, politically, of course, we have very different views on the purpose of taxation, but the pragmatic observation is that Governments need money so that the state can function, but how much it takes and who the winners and losers are affect how our society functions.
Tax budget headlines capture public attention in a way that the talk of millions of pounds for public services can't, and I think the same is true, probably, for benefits payments as well, because most tax or benefits payments affect us very directly and very personally. However complicated the detail proves to be, we know the effect in our pay slips or in our bills, and we feel, Alun, how fair that is in our own personal circumstances. It draws us to form a view on whether the money that we've given to Government for the common good has been wasted or not, and Welsh Government's use of its new taxation powers could be the action that finally gets the people of Wales to look closely and sustainedly at how the Labour Government spend their money, because that's what we are talking about after all, as Oscar said: their money.
Now, unlike me, some of my local party members disagree about these income tax powers coming to the Assembly because they simply don't trust a Labour Government with them. And I try and persuade them that this is the rock on which the good ship Labour will finally be wrecked and the nation's eyes will be opened, but they respond by saying that they'll sink the whole of Wales in the process and, because people don't distinguish between the Executive and us, the Assembly's reputation with it. But these risks aren't just to reputation. They are to this nation's ability to create greater wealth, which in itself can create a greater tax take, the subject of this debate. Conservatives, as we all know, favour a lower-tax environment, so I just want to revisit the axiom that making tax all about the wealthiest doesn't increase tax take. The fact that the top 10 per cent of taxpayers pay 60 per cent of the tax due to HMRC doesn't prove the contrary. It proves that there are more top taxpayers around—and we should be aiming to have more of them in Wales—and that Conservative cuts to the thresholds mean that basic taxpayers are individually and collectively contributing less.
Our warnings last year about the supertax on high-end commercial property sales went unheeded, and now the number of such sales has fallen. I know it doesn't fit some world views here, but the opposite has been true in Scotland, where they have a lower rate on those properties. Compare that, though, with Scotland's increase for higher rate income tax payers. They're £0.5 billion out on their maths because these taxpayers leave or adjust how much they earn. We have a much greater per capita cross-border travel-to-work area than Scotland has, and it won't just be a case of where business owners may want to locate; the decisions we make on tax may affect where some of our better-paid public servants choose to live too.
Now, Welsh Government has admitted that the basic rate is where the greatest potential returns would come from within Wales, and it's worth remembering that this is not just about employee earnings. We have a very considerable unincorporated micro sector. Even some larger operations are firms rather than companies, not least in agriculture, and any tax decisions must take into consideration the effect they would have on existing businesses as well as how they may attract the new. Not all start-ups can secure borrowing as new companies either, so let's resist taxation sterilising the soil on which we could be growing our new businesses.
A last brief word on land tax, should it tempt anyone in future. I know this has been of interest to the current First Minister. I just want to say that ownership is not a privilege, which are the words he chooses to describe it. It is a responsibility; it reduces demand for public housing underwritten by taxpayers, and it's a condition that's already laced with taxation: income tax on the earnings as you save your deposit, the interest on which is also taxed, land transaction tax before you buy, then council tax, then VAT on professional fees, materials and labours for maintenance. And then, potentially, depending how you do this, inheritance tax and even capital gains tax. And if you have a second property as a responsible investment for your future, perhaps to pay for your care costs in older age, income from that is taxed again, and, of course, you could be charged additional council tax, depending on the status of that property. A tax that drives down land values and depresses the number of sales and purchases brings diminishing returns and negative equity, and I'm not sure that you'd want to be proving my local party members right if you're considering land tax. Thank you.
Mae rhywbeth ynglŷn â threthi'n codi ac yn gostwng sy'n bachu sylw'r genedl—TAW, prisiau petrol, toll ar alcohol, treth gyngor, treth incwm, yswiriant cenedlaethol. At eii gilydd, nid ydynt wedi'u datganoli, wrth gwrs, ond maent yn serennu'n rheolaidd ym mhenawdau cyllideb y DU. A dyna'r un adeg yn y flwyddyn pan fyddwn yn canolbwyntio ar sut y bydd y Llywodraeth yn rhoi ein harian yn ôl i ni gydag un llaw ac yna'n ei dynnu'n ôl gyda'r llall. Mae Llywodraethau angen derbyniad treth ac yn wleidyddol, wrth gwrs, mae gennym safbwyntiau gwahanol iawn ar ddiben trethiant, ond y safbwynt pragmataidd yw bod Llywodraethau angen arian er mwyn i'r wladwriaeth allu gweithredu, ond mae faint y mae'n ei gymryd a phwy yw'r enillwyr a'r collwyr yn effeithio ar y ffordd y mae'r gymdeithas yn gweithredu.
Mae penawdau cyllidebau treth yn bachu sylw'r cyhoedd mewn ffordd na all sôn am filiynau o bunnoedd ar gyfer gwasanaethau cyhoeddus ei wneud, ac rwy'n credu bod yr un peth yn wir, mae'n debyg, am daliadau budd-daliadau yn ogystal, oherwydd mae'r rhan fwyaf o daliadau treth neu fudd-daliadau'n effeithio arnom yn uniongyrchol ac yn bersonol iawn. Er mor gymhleth yw'r manylion, gwyddom beth yw'r effaith ar ein slipiau cyflog neu ein biliau, ac rydym yn teimlo, Alun, pa mor deg yw hynny yn ein hamgylchiadau personol. Mae'n ein cymell i ffurfio barn ynglŷn ag a yw'r arian a roesom i'r Llywodraeth er y lles cyhoeddus wedi'i wastraffu neu beidio, ac efallai mai defnydd Llywodraeth Cymru o'i phwerau trethu newydd fydd y cam a fydd yn gwneud i bobl Cymru edrych yn agos ac yn gyson o'r diwedd ar sut y mae'r Llywodraeth Lafur yn gwario eu harian, oherwydd dyna rydym yn sôn amdano wedi'r cyfan, fel y dywedodd Oscar: eu harian hwy.
Nawr, yn wahanol i mi, mae rhai o aelodau lleol fy mhlaid yn anghytuno ynglŷn â'r pwerau treth incwm sy'n dod i'r Cynulliad am nad ydynt yn ymddiried mewn Llywodraeth Lafur i wneud defnydd da ohonynt. Ac rwy'n ceisio eu darbwyllo mai dyma'r graig y bydd llong fawr Llafur yn cael ei dryllio arni yn y pen draw ac fe agorir llygaid y genedl, ond ymatebant drwy ddweud y bydd yn suddo Cymru gyfan yn y broses, ac oherwydd nad yw pobl yn gwahaniaethu rhwng y Weithrediaeth a ninnau, caiff enw da'r Cynulliad ei suddo hefyd. Ond nid risgiau i enw da yn unig yw hyn. Maent yn risgiau i allu'r genedl hon i greu mwy o gyfoeth, sydd ynddo'i hun yn gallu creu mwy o dderbyniadau treth, pwnc y ddadl hon. Mae'n well gan y Ceidwadwyr, fel y mae pawb ohonom yn gwybod, amgylchedd treth is, felly rwyf am ailedrych ar y wireb nad yw gwneud treth yn fater sy'n ymwneud â'r bobl gyfoethocaf yn unig yn cynyddu derbyniadau treth. Nid yw'r ffaith fod y 10 y cant uchaf o drethdalwyr yn talu 60 y cant o'r dreth sy'n ddyledus i CThEM yn profi'r gwrthwyneb. Mae'n profi bod mwy o drethdalwyr ar y gyfradd uchaf ar gael—a dylem anelu at gael mwy ohonynt yng Nghymru—a bod y modd y mae'r Ceidwadwyr yn gostwng y trothwyon yn golygu bod trethdalwyr y gyfradd sylfaenol yn cyfrannu llai fel unigolion ac yn gyfunol.
Ni wrandawyd ar ein rhybuddion y llynedd ynglŷn â'r dreth uwch ar werthiannau eiddo masnachol ym mhen uchaf y farchnad, a bellach mae nifer gwerthiannau o'r fath wedi gostwng. Gwn nad yw'n cyd-fynd â barn rhai am y byd yn y fan hon, ond mae'r gwrthwyneb wedi bod yn wir yn yr Alban, lle mae ganddynt gyfradd is ar eiddo o'r fath. Ond cymharwch hynny â'r cynnydd yn yr Alban i rai sy'n talu'r gyfradd uwch o dreth incwm. Maent £0.5 biliwn allan ohoni yn eu mathemateg oherwydd bod y trethdalwyr hyn yn gadael neu'n addasu faint a enillant. Mae gennym lawer mwy o bobl yn teithio i'r gwaith ar draws y ffin na'r Alban, a bydd yn fwy na bod perchnogion busnes eisiau adleoli; gallai'r penderfyniadau a wnawn ynglŷn â threthi effeithio ar ble y bydd rhai o'n gweithwyr cyhoeddus ar gyflogau gwell yn dewis byw hefyd.
Nawr, mae Llywodraeth Cymru wedi cyfaddef mai o'r gyfradd sylfaenol y byddai'r adenillion posibl mwyaf yn dod yng Nghymru, ac mae'n werth cofio nad ymwneud ag enillion gweithwyr yn unig y mae hyn. Mae gennym sector microfusnesau anghorfforedig sylweddol iawn. Mae rhai o'r gweithredwyr mwy yn fusnesau yn hytrach na chwmnïau hyd yn oed, nid yn lleiaf mewn amaethyddiaeth, a rhaid i unrhyw benderfyniadau treth ystyried yr effaith a gaent ar fusnesau presennol yn ogystal â sut y gallent ddenu rhai newydd. Ni all pob busnes newydd sicrhau benthyciad fel cwmnïau newydd chwaith, felly gadewch i ni wrthsefyll y trethiant sy'n anffrwythloni'r pridd y gallem fod yn tyfu ein busnesau newydd ynddo.
Gair byr i gloi ar dreth ar dir pe bai'n temtio unrhyw un yn y dyfodol. Gwn fod hon wedi bod o ddiddordeb i'r Prif Weinidog presennol. Hoffwn ddweud nad braint yw perchnogaeth, sef y geiriau y mae'n eu dewis i'w ddisgrifio. Cyfrifoldeb ydyw; mae'n lleihau'r galw am dai cyhoeddus wedi'u tanysgrifennu gan drethdalwyr, ac mae'n sefyllfa sydd eisoes wedi'i threthi'n drwm yn barod: treth incwm ar enillion wrth i chi gynilo eich blaendal, gyda'r llog arno wedi'i drethu hefyd, y dreth trafodiadau tir cyn i chi brynu, yna'r dreth gyngor, wedyn TAW ar ffioedd proffesiynol, deunyddiau a llafur ar gyfer cynnal a chadw. Ac yna, o bosibl, yn dibynnu ar sut y gwnewch hyn, y dreth etifeddiant a threth ar enillion cyfalaf hyd yn oed. Ac os oes gennych ail eiddo fel buddsoddiad cyfrifol ar gyfer eich dyfodol, i dalu am eich costau gofal pan fyddwch yn hŷn efallai, caiff incwm o hwnnw ei drethu eto, ac wrth gwrs, gallech orfod talu treth gyngor ychwanegol, yn dibynnu ar statws yr eiddo hwnnw. Daw treth sy'n gostwng gwerth tir ac yn cyfyngu ar nifer gwerthiannau a phryniannau ag enillion lleihaol ac ecwiti negyddol yn ei sgil, ac nid wyf yn siŵr y byddech eisiau profi bod aelodau lleol fy mhlaid yn gywir os ydych yn ystyried treth ar dir. Diolch.
I'm delighted to take part in this debate and to say that we broadly support the Conservative motion because we're a low-tax party as well, and whilst we accept that public services have to be paid for, what matters is the size of the cake more than the way it's split up. What we need to do is to grow the economy in Wales if we're to have better public services, and as we know, there are going to be growing demands for spending on health, as Alun Davies said earlier on. I welcome him to the freedom of the back benches. His great predecessor Aneurin Bevan, as Member of Parliament for Ebbw Vale, used to say that he liked to speak on the unpinioned wing, and I'm sure that Alun Davies is very much of that persuasion as well, and we look forward to many of his exhilarating contributions in the years to come.
Over the years, we've had a huge variety of tax rates in this country. I can remember back in the 1960s when we had rates of income tax that went up to 83p in the £1, and another 15 per cent on top of that for investment income. And in the year 1966–67, James Callaghan—I think he was the Chancellor of the Exchequer then—imposed an extra 10 per cent surcharge. So, the top rate of income tax was actually 107 per cent. It's no surprise that that did not raise more revenue. In fact, it did precisely the reverse. In fact, all the historical evidence shows that, on balance, it's impossible to squeeze out of the British people more than about 35 per cent of national income in taxes of all sorts. The figures that are published and available on the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development's website for the last 20 years show that. In the year 2000, we were taking 33.8 per cent of GDP in taxes, this year it's 34 per cent. It went down to 32.2 per cent in the meantime, in 2009, but broadly it's bumped along on that level, whether there's a Labour Government, Tory Government, coalition Governments, minority Governments or majority Governments. The tax take has gone down as low as 31.6 per cent, and at its highest 37 per cent, but on average you can't get beyond 35 per cent. And the reason is obvious: people do change their behaviour to reflect the tax background in which they live.
If we go back to the eighteenth century, perhaps the most famous form of tax avoidance at all was of the window tax; people just bricked their windows up in order to reduce the amount of tax that they had to pay. Today, we have more modern forms of tax avoidance than that, and every country has to be competitive in the world if it's to maximise the amount of tax that can be raised for a given rate, because taxpayers have never been more mobile than they are today; nothing could be easier than to move to another part of the world. And, of course, within the EU, tax avoidance is maximised by the EU's pan-European tax rules, which can enable companies to base themselves in Luxembourg, technically, and pay very, very low rates of tax there, rather than the rates of tax that are obtained in the countries where they do the bulk of their business. So, as a former tax lawyer myself, who was involved in devising schemes to minimise tax for our clients, then I can say a massive industry existed in the 1970s, and a good thing it was, when we reduced dramatically the rates of tax, that that industry could make less money because there was less work to do. And intellects such as mine were put to more productive uses by doing other things.
We can, of course, borrow more money to pay for public services, but that merely shuffles off the responsibility for paying for what we consume today onto our children and grandchildren tomorrow, and there's a fundamental immorality about that, not least if we debase the currency in order to reduce that risk. In fact, in Britain, we have a situation, as Suzy Davies referred to, where those who are on highest incomes pay a very, very substantial proportion of income tax receipts—the top 1 per cent pays actually 28 per cent of all receipts in income tax, and that's actually gone up in the last 19 years. In the year 2000, it was only 21 per cent. The top 10 per cent, as Suzy pointed out, pays 60 per cent of all taxes and the bottom 50 per cent of taxpayers pay only—well, less than 10 per cent of the total yield. So, in fact, the rich are bearing the burden of taxes, but it doesn't mean to say that if you push up the higher rates of income tax any more you would raise any more revenue.
Now, I take a different view on the devolution of taxes from many in my party; I broadly welcomed the ability of the Welsh Government to raise part of its revenue from taxation, because I believe that that cements the leap between spending and revenue raising, which enables us to hold the Government to account. They can't just shuffle off onto Westminster the blame for whatever their failings are. But I do think that if Wales is to prosper in the years ahead, it has to be competitive, obviously with England, but with more international regimes of tax as well. As I've said constantly in these kinds of debates, we've got to devise a tax system that can raise the wealth-creating potential of Wales, and maximise our national income in Wales. That's the way in which we'll pay for the growing demands on public services in the years ahead.
Pleser o'r mwyaf yw cymryd rhan yn y ddadl hon ac i ddweud ar y cyfan ein bod yn cefnogi cynnig y Ceidwadwyr oherwydd ein bod ninnau'n blaid treth isel hefyd, ac er ein bod yn derbyn bod yn rhaid talu am wasanaethau cyhoeddus, yr hyn sy'n bwysig yw maint y gacen yn fwy na'r ffordd y caiff ei thorri. Yr hyn sydd angen inni ei wneud yw tyfu economi Cymru os ydym am gael gwasanaethau cyhoeddus gwell, ac fel y gwyddom, mae galwadau cynyddol yn mynd i fod am wariant ar iechyd, fel y dywedodd Alun Davies yn gynharach. Rwy'n ei groesawu i ryddid y meinciau cefn. Roedd ei ragflaenydd gwych, Aneurin Bevan, fel yr Aelod Seneddol dros Lyn Ebwy, yn arfer dweud ei fod yn hoffi siarad ar adain rydd, ac rwy'n siŵr fod Alun Davies yn debyg iddo yn hynny o beth, ac edrychwn ymlaen at lawer o'i gyfraniadau gwefreiddiol yn y blynyddoedd i ddod.
Dros y blynyddoedd, rydym wedi cael amrywiaeth enfawr o gyfraddau treth yn y wlad hon. Gallaf gofio yn ôl yn y 1960au pan oedd gennym gyfraddau treth incwm a ai i fyny i 83c yn y £1, a 15 y cant arall ar ben hynny ar incwm buddsoddi. Ac yn y flwyddyn 1966-67, gosododd James Callaghan—rwy'n credu mai ef oedd Canghellor y Trysorlys ar y pryd—10 y cant ychwanegol o ordal. Felly, mewn gwirionedd 107 y cant oedd y gyfradd uchaf o dreth incwm. Nid yw'n syndod na chododd hynny fwy o refeniw. Yn wir, gwnaeth yn union i'r gwrthwyneb. Mewn gwirionedd, dengys pob tystiolaeth hanesyddol at ei gilydd ei bod hi'n amhosibl gwasgu mwy nag oddeutu 35 y cant o'r incwm cenedlaethol o drethi o bob math allan o bobl Prydain. Dangosir hynny gan y ffigurau a gyhoeddir ac sydd ar gael ar wefan y Sefydliad ar gyfer Cydweithrediad a Datblygiad Economaidd ar gyfer yr 20 mlynedd diwethaf. Yn y flwyddyn 2000, roeddem yn cymryd 33.8 y cant o'r cynnyrch domestig gros mewn trethi, eleni mae'n 34 y cant. Aeth i lawr i 32.2 y cant yn y cyfamser, yn 2009, ond yn gyffredinol mae wedi rhygnu yn ei flaen ar y lefel honno, pa un a oes Llywodraeth Lafur, Llywodraeth Dorïaidd, Llywodraethau clymbleidiol, Llywodraethau lleiafrifol neu Lywodraethau mwyafrifol. Mae lefel derbyniadau treth wedi gostwng mor isel â 31.6 y cant, ac ar ei uchaf roedd yn 37 y cant, ond ar gyfartaledd ni allwch fynd y tu hwnt i 35 y cant. Ac mae'r rheswm yn amlwg: mae pobl yn newid eu hymddygiad i adlewyrchu'r cefndir treth y maent yn byw ynddo.
Os awn yn ôl i'r ddeunawfed ganrif, efallai mai'r ffurf fwyaf enwog ar osgoi trethi oedd y dreth ffenestri; byddai pobl yn llenwi eu ffenestri â brics er mwyn lleihau'r dreth yr oedd yn rhaid iddynt ei thalu. Heddiw, mae gennym ffurfiau mwy modern na hynny o osgoi trethi, a rhaid i bob gwlad fod yn gystadleuol yn y byd os yw'n mynd i fanteisio i'r eithaf ar faint o dreth y gellir ei chodi ar gyfer cyfradd benodol, oherwydd nid yw trethdalwyr erioed wedi bod yn fwy symudol nag y maent heddiw; ni allai dim fod yn haws na symud i ran arall o'r byd. Ac wrth gwrs, o fewn yr UE, mae osgoi trethi yn waeth byth yn sgil rheolau treth Ewrop gyfan yr UE, a all alluogi cwmnïau i leoli yn Lwcsembwrg yn dechnegol, a thalu cyfraddau isel iawn o dreth yno, yn hytrach na'r cyfraddau treth a geir yn y gwledydd lle y byddant yn gwneud y rhan fwyaf o'u busnes. Felly, fel cyn-gyfreithiwr treth fy hun, a oedd yn ymwneud â dyfeisio cynlluniau i leihau trethi ar ran ein cleientiaid, gallaf ddweud bod diwydiant enfawr yn bodoli yn y 1970au, a phan fyddem yn gostwng y cyfraddau treth yn ddramatig, roedd yn beth da fod y diwydiant hwnnw'n gallu gwneud llai o arian am fod llai o waith i'w wneud. A defnyddiwyd galluoedd rhai fel fi yn fwy cynhyrchiol drwy wneud pethau eraill.
Wrth gwrs, gallwn fenthyca mwy o arian i dalu am wasanaethau cyhoeddus, ond nid yw hynny ond yn gwthio'r cyfrifoldeb am dalu am yr hyn a ddefnyddiwn heddiw ar ysgwyddau ein plant a'n hwyrion yfory, ac mae yna anfoesoldeb sylfaenol ynglŷn â hynny, yn enwedig os ydym yn gostwng gwerth arian er mwyn lleihau'r risg honno. Yn wir, ym Mhrydain, mae gennym sefyllfa, fel y dywedodd Suzy Davies, lle mae'r rheini sydd â'r incwm uchaf yn talu cyfran sylweddol iawn o'r derbyniadau treth incwm—mae'r 1 y cant uchaf yn talu 28 y cant o'r holl dderbyniadau treth incwm mewn gwirionedd, ac mae hynny wedi codi yn ystod y 19 mlynedd diwethaf. Yn y flwyddyn 2000, nid oedd ond yn 21 y cant. Mae'r 10 y cant uchaf, fel y nododd Suzy, yn talu 60 y cant o'r holl drethi ac nid yw'r 50 y cant isaf o drethdalwyr ond yn talu—wel, llai na 10 y cant o'r cyfanswm. Felly, mewn gwirionedd, mae'r cyfoethog yn ysgwyddo baich trethi, ond os ydych yn gwthio'r cyfraddau uwch o dreth incwm yn uwch eto, nid yw'n golygu y byddech yn codi rhagor o refeniw.
Nawr, mae gennyf farn wahanol ar ddatganoli trethi i'r un sydd gan lawer yn fy mhlaid; at ei gilydd roeddwn yn croesawu gallu Llywodraeth Cymru i godi rhan o'i refeniw o drethi, oherwydd credaf fod hynny'n cadarnhau'r naid rhwng gwariant a chodi refeniw, sy'n ein galluogi i ddwyn y Llywodraeth i gyfrif. Ni allant ddargyfeirio'r bai ar San Steffan am beth bynnag yw eu methiannau. Ond os yw Cymru i ffynnu yn y blynyddoedd i ddod, rwy'n credu bod yn rhaid iddi gystadlu, â Lloegr wrth gwrs, ond â systemau treth mwy rhyngwladol yn ogystal. Fel rwy'n dweud yn gyson yn y mathau hyn o ddadleuon, rhaid inni ddyfeisio system dreth a all godi'r potensial i greu cyfoeth yng Nghymru, ac uchafu ein hincwm cenedlaethol yng Nghymru. Dyna sut y talwn am y galwadau cynyddol ar wasanaethau cyhoeddus yn y blynyddoedd i ddod.
Could I firstly apologise to colleagues for arriving late to the debate, and particularly to my colleague, Nick Ramsay, whose introductions are often as rousing as his perorations? So, I'm sorry to have missed that. I did hear Neil Hamilton's speech just now. I'd previously been aware that he was a lawyer, but I hadn't realised that he was a tax avoidance specialist until he revealed that just now, and considers that he has put his life to more productive use since then.
I heard Alun Davies's comments earlier and his scepticism that you could ever increase revenue by having a lower tax rate or vice versa. The Welsh Government seems to like new taxes—the idea of testing the system—and we do have this test bed. And the tax increase that they have put in has been on commercial property above £1 million; they now charge 6 per cent, rather than 5 per cent. I discussed this with the now First Minister before it happened and shared my fears and was assured that it would make more than a few thousand of difference—or none at all, we would hear from the back benches. But we actually have some figures now on this and I quoted before a survey by a company called CoStar, which monitors commercial transactions. They observed that, in the second quarter of the year, the first quarter of the land transaction tax, the amount of commercial transactions in Wales slumped to just £40 million. That compares to a quarterly average previously, over the past five years, of £180 million.
Now, the First Minister criticised me for putting too much emphasis on one quarter's figures, and told me there had been one big transaction that had come through in the next quarter, and we now have those figures—at least, from this survey—for Q3, the second quarter of LTT, and there has been a slight increase to £54 million, so now we're only 70 per cent rather than 78 per cent below what we were seeing before. And if we multiply those rates to—[Inaudible.]—with his observation earlier, we will find that, over a typical six months of what was SDLT, we would have seen 5 per cent taken on £180 million per quarter. That would be £18 million over six months. Since then, on these numbers, we have seen £40 million plus £54 million—£94 million—and taking 6 per cent of that we get £5.64 million. So, that is, if my maths serves me correctly, £12.36 million of lost revenue thanks to that 1 per cent tax increase. And—[Interruption.] I'd be delighted to take an intervention.
Yn gyntaf a gaf fi ymddiheuro i gyd-Aelodau am gyrraedd yn hwyr i'r ddadl, ac yn arbennig i fy nghyd-Aelod, Nick Ramsay, y mae ei gyflwyniadau'n aml mor danbaid a'i berorasiynau? Felly, mae'n ddrwg gennyf fod wedi colli hynny. Clywais araith Neil Hamilton yn awr. Roeddwn yn ymwybodol ei fod yn arfer bod yn gyfreithiwr, ond nid oeddwn wedi sylweddoli ei fod yn arbenigwr ar osgoi trethi hyd nes y datgelodd hynny yn awr, a'i fod yn ystyried ei fod wedi gwneud defnydd mwy cynhyrchiol o'i fywyd ers hynny.
Clywais sylwadau Alun Davies yn gynharach a'i amheuon na allech byth gynyddu refeniw drwy gael cyfradd dreth is neu'r gwrthwyneb. Ymddengys bod Llywodraeth Cymru yn hoffi trethi newydd—y syniad o brofi'r system—ac mae gennym fan prawf yma. Ac mae'r cynnydd yn y dreth a gyflwynwyd ganddynt ar eiddo masnachol dros £1 miliwn; maent bellach yn codi 6 y cant yn hytrach na 5 y cant. Trafodais hyn gyda'r Prif Weinidog, bellach, cyn iddo ddigwydd a rhennais fy ofnau a chefais sicrwydd y byddai'n gwneud mwy nag ychydig o filoedd o wahaniaeth—neu ddim o gwbl, byddem yn ei glywed gan y meinciau cefn. Ond mewn gwirionedd mae gennym rai ffigurau ar hyn yn awr ac rwyf wedi dyfynnu arolwg gan gwmni o'r enw CoStar o'r blaen, cwmni sy'n monitro trafodiadau masnachol. Yn ail chwarter y flwyddyn, sef chwarter cyntaf y dreth trafodiadau tir, gwelsant fod swm trafodiadau masnachol yng Nghymru wedi disgyn i £40 miliwn yn unig. Mae hynny'n cymharu â chyfartaledd chwarterol blaenorol, dros y pum mlynedd diwethaf, o £180 miliwn.
Nawr, cefais fy meirniadu gan y Prif Weinidog am roi gormod o bwyslais ar ffigurau un chwarter, a dywedodd wrthyf fod un trafodiad mawr wedi dod drwodd yn y chwarter nesaf, a bellach mae gennym y ffigurau hynny—o'r arolwg hwn, o leiaf—ar gyfer chwarter tri, sef ail chwarter y dreth trafodiadau tir, a bu ychydig o gynnydd i £54 miliwn, felly nid ydym ond 70 y cant yn hytrach na 78 y cant yn is na'r hyn a welem cyn hynny. A phe baem yn cynyddu'r cyfraddau hynny i—[Anghlywadwy.]—gyda'i sylw yn gynharach, dros chwe mis arferol o'r hyn a oedd yn arfer bod yn dreth dir y dreth stamp, fe welwn y byddem wedi cael 5 y cant o dderbyniadau ar £180 miliwn y chwarter. Byddai hynny'n £18 miliwn dros chwe mis. Ers hynny, ar y rhifau hyn, gwelsom £40 miliwn a £54 miliwn—£94 miliwn—ac o gymryd 6 y cant o hwnnw, cawn £5.64 miliwn. Felly, os yw fy mathemateg yn gywir, dyna £12.36 miliwn o refeniw a gollwyd diolch i'r cynnydd o 1 y cant yn y dreth. A—[Torri ar draws.] Buaswn yn falch o dderbyn ymyriad.
How can you prove that? It's very difficult, because you don't know what would have happened otherwise. And have you compared it with what's happened in tax transactions in the rest of Britain? [Interruption.] No, the rest of Britain, which is different.
Sut y gallwch brofi hynny? Mae'n anodd iawn, oherwydd nid ydych yn gwybod beth fyddai wedi digwydd fel arall. Ac rydych wedi ei gymharu â'r hyn sydd wedi digwydd mewn trafodiadau treth yng ngweddill Prydain? [Torri ar draws.] Na, gweddill Prydain, sy'n wahanol.
Well, we don't have the numbers from the tax authorities yet—at least not reliable ones—because the transactions can come in later. So, we have a survey on a consistent basis, and I think that gives useful information. In the previous quarter, in the last quarter before this happened, I think we had about £390 million of transactions, as people rushed to get their transactions through under the old SDLT regime rather than paying LTT to the Welsh Government, and those are the differences that we can see because of taxes. I agree that the land transaction tax for commercial large properties is likely to be more sensitive to these changes in rates than many other taxes will be, but I think it does go to the principle, and I think we need to be very, very careful with what we do with income tax. I hope the Welsh Government will support this motion today, because it's in line with their manifesto, and, whatever we think about the merits of the argument, I trust that politicians believe in keeping promises and keeping to their manifesto.
But if, in the future, income tax rates do change, what's the impact of that going to be? Because, we only have these 10 per cent bands, so, to the extent those raise, perhaps the UK Government will suffer some of the revenue loss on the portion that it's still taking. But I think, on the other side, there are concerns that should weigh at least as heavily, because, when people pay less income tax and find ways to declare what was previously declared as income as either capital gains, or to incorporate and pay corporation tax and dividend tax only when they take money out of companies, those taxes will go to the UK Government rather than to the Welsh Government. So, it may be that if we had a somewhat lower rate of tax and, say, for someone paying 40 per cent tax in England, if they were to pay 38 per cent in Wales, they might respond by paying that tax rate, rather than incorporating and paying a dividend tax or paying capital gains tax. And the benefit to us of that would be two fold, because it would be the UK Government that would no longer have the revenue from those other taxes, whereas that revenue would come in as income tax—new income tax base—to get the whole of that rate. So, I hope Members will consider this motion, support this motion, and keep taxes low in Wales.
Wel, nid oes gennym rifau gan yr awdurdodau treth eto—rhai dibynadwy o leiaf— oherwydd gall y trafodiadau ddod i mewn yn nes ymlaen. Felly, mae gennym arolwg ar sail gyson, a chredaf ei fod yn rhoi gwybodaeth ddefnyddiol. Yn y chwarter blaenorol, yn ystod y chwarter olaf cyn i hyn ddigwydd, credaf inni gael oddeutu £390 miliwn o drafodiadau, wrth i bobl ruthro i gael eu trafodiadau drwodd o dan hen drefn treth dir y dreth stamp yn hytrach na talu'r dreth trafodiadau tir i Lywodraeth Cymru, a dyna yw'r gwahaniaethau y gallwn eu gweld oherwydd trethi. Rwy'n cytuno bod y dreth trafodiadau tir ar gyfer eiddo masnachol mawr yn debygol o fod yn fwy sensitif i'r newidiadau hyn yn y cyfraddau nag y bydd llawer o drethi eraill, ond credaf fod hynny'n ymwneud â'r egwyddor, ac rwy'n credu bod angen inni fod yn ofalus tu hwnt ynglŷn â'r hyn a wnawn gyda'r dreth incwm. Rwy'n gobeithio y bydd Llywodraeth Cymru'n cefnogi'r cynnig hwn heddiw, gan ei fod yn cyd-fynd â'u maniffesto, a beth bynnag yw ein barn am rinweddau'r ddadl, hyderaf fod gwleidyddion yn credu mewn cadw addewidion a chadw at eu maniffesto.
Ond os yw cyfraddau treth incwm yn newid yn y dyfodol, beth fydd effaith hynny? Oherwydd, dim ond y bandiau 10 y cant hyn sydd gennym, felly, i'r graddau bod y rheini'n codi, efallai y bydd Llywodraeth y DU yn gweld colli refeniw ar y gyfran y mae'n parhau i'w chymryd. Ond ar yr ochr arall, mae yna bryderon y dylem bwyso o leiaf yr un mor drwm, oherwydd pan fydd pobl yn talu llai o dreth incwm ac yn dod o hyd i ffyrdd o ddatgan yr hyn a gâi ei ddatgan o'r blaen fel incwm naill ai fel enillion cyfalaf, neu gorffori a thalu treth gorfforaeth a threth ar ddifidend pan fyddant yn tynnu arian allan o gwmnïau yn unig, bydd y trethi hynny'n mynd i Lywodraeth y DU yn hytrach na Llywodraeth Cymru. Felly, pe bai gennym gyfradd ychydig yn is o dreth, ac i rywun a oedd yn talu 40 y cant o dreth yn Lloegr, pe baent yn talu 38 y cant yng Nghymru, efallai y byddant yn ymateb drwy dalu'r gyfradd dreth honno, yn hytrach nag ymgorffori a thalu treth ar ddifidend neu dalu treth ar enillion cyfalaf. A byddai'r budd i ni o hynny yn ddeublyg, oherwydd ni fyddai'r refeniw o'r ddwy dreth arall honno yn mynd i Lywodraeth y DU, a byddai'r refeniw hwnnw'n dod i mewn fel treth incwm—sylfaen dreth incwm newydd—i gael y gyfradd honno i gyd. Felly, rwy'n gobeithio y bydd yr Aelodau'n ystyried y cynnig hwn, yn cefnogi'r cynnig hwn, ac yn cadw trethi'n isel yng Nghymru.
Thank you. Can I now call on the Minister for Finance and Trefnydd, Rebecca Evans?
Diolch. A gaf fi alw yn awr ar y Gweinidog Cyllid a'r Trefnydd, Rebecca Evans?
Thank you very much, and I do welcome today's debate, which I think has been very interesting. The devolution of tax powers provides the Welsh Government with a range of opportunities to develop a progressive approach to taxation that is tailored to Wales's needs. The tax policy framework, published in 2017 by the then Cabinet Secretary for Finance, and the tax work plans published since, have emphasised this Government's commitment to take a strategic approach to tax policy. This is now being delivered through our work to manage existing and newly devolved taxes, as well as our evolving approach to develop new taxes. The 2019 tax policy work plan, which I intend to publish in the coming weeks, will provide further details on our priorities this year. But, just to give a flavour of them, we will be considering wider policy around taxation of residential properties, promoting fairness and progressivity in tax policy through our local taxation work, progressing the work on devolving powers over a vacant land tax, as well as exploring how we make the best use of digital and digital services and technology to improve the administration of Welsh taxes.
Taxes are the admission charge that we pay to live in a civilised society. They're the investment that citizens and businesses make to fund the public services we provide and enjoy collectively, from roads and bridges to hospitals and schools, paying the wages of those who deliver these services, as well as the necessary infrastructure, equipment and resources required to support them. Taxes enable the people in Wales to achieve together the things that we can't manage alone. The decisions we make on Welsh taxes will have a direct impact on the Welsh economy.
The Welsh Government recognises the importance of considering the impact of taxation on the overall competitiveness of the Welsh economy. That is why our tax policy framework includes a principle that taxes should help deliver strategic objectives and, in particular, that Welsh taxes should encourage jobs and economic growth. That is why we've introduced additional business rates relief for high streets and why we have set the lowest starting rates on taxes for residential and non-residential property transactions. Similarly, our tax policy principles commit us to engage with taxpayers to help inform our approach to developing tax policy. Nick Ramsay talked about the importance of taking people with us, and that's very much the approach that we're taking in terms of seeking to establish a new relationship with people in Wales.
We agree with what's set out in the second amendment to this motion put forward by Plaid Cymru, which we would otherwise support had it not had the effect of deleting and replacing part of the original motion with which we also agree, but we certainly don't see that these two parts of the motion are mutually exclusive, by any means.
Last week, this Assembly took the historic step of setting the first rates of Welsh income tax. To help ensure an orderly and smooth transition to the partial devolution of income tax, Welsh taxpayers will pay the same rates as those in England and Northern Ireland in 2019-20. I have no plans to change income tax during this Assembly. It would be naïve, however, to say we would never raise taxes in Wales. There may be circumstances in the future in which there is a compelling case for fair, progressive change in Welsh taxes to provide the funding needed to continue to deliver the public services that people in Wales want.
I am mindful, however, that Wales and the UK are facing the most significant upheaval in modern times as we look ahead to the UK's exit from the EU. We face the very real possibility of a 'no deal' scenario, and, given this, coupled with the ongoing impact of continued austerity, it is right that we continue to monitor closely developments and assess their impact on our fiscal position. So, we're very happy to support the motion before us today, and we thank Members for their contributions.
Diolch yn fawr iawn, ac rwy'n croesawu'r ddadl heddiw, a chredaf iddi fod yn ddiddorol iawn. Mae datganoli pwerau treth yn rhoi amrywiaeth o gyfleoedd i Lywodraeth Cymru ddatblygu ymagwedd flaengar at drethiant wedi'i deilwra i anghenion Cymru. Mae'r fframwaith polisi treth a gyhoeddwyd yn 2017 gan Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet dros Gyllid ar y pryd, a'r cynlluniau gwaith ar drethu a gyhoeddwyd ers hynny, wedi pwysleisio ymrwymiad y Llywodraeth hon i fabwysiadu ymagwedd strategol tuag at bolisi treth. Cyflawnir hyn bellach drwy ein gwaith ar reoli trethi presennol a threthi a ddatganolir o'r newydd, yn ogystal â'n dull sy'n esblygu o ddatblygu trethi newydd. Bydd cynllun gwaith polisi treth 2019, y bwriadaf ei gyhoeddi yn ystod yr wythnosau nesaf, yn rhoi manylion pellach ynglŷn â'n blaenoriaethau eleni. Ond i roi blas ohonynt, byddwn yn ystyried y polisi ehangach mewn perthynas â threthu eiddo preswyl, yn hyrwyddo tegwch a blaengaredd mewn polisi treth drwy ein gwaith ar drethiant lleol, yn datblygu gwaith ar ddatganoli pwerau dros dreth ar dir gwag, yn ogystal ag archwilio sut i wneud y defnydd gorau o wasanaethau digidol a thechnoleg ddigidol i wella'r broses o weinyddu trethi Cymru.
Trethi yw'r tâl mynediad a dalwn i fyw mewn cymdeithas wâr. Dyna yw'r buddsoddiad y mae dinasyddion a busnesau yn ei wneud i ariannu'r gwasanaethau cyhoeddus rydym yn eu darparu ac yn eu mwynhau gyda'i gilydd, o ffyrdd a phontydd i ysbytai ac ysgolion, talu cyflogau'r rhai sy'n darparu'r gwasanaethau hyn, yn ogystal â'r seilwaith angenrheidiol, a'r offer a'r adnoddau sydd eu hangen i'w cynnal. Mae trethi'n galluogi pobl yng Nghymru i gyflawni pethau gyda'n gilydd na allwn eu gwneud ar ein pen ein hunain. Bydd y penderfyniadau a wnawn ar drethi Cymru yn effeithio'n uniongyrchol ar economi Cymru.
Mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn cydnabod pwysigrwydd ystyried effaith trethiant ar gystadleurwydd cyffredinol economi Cymru. Dyna pam y mae ein fframwaith polisi treth yn cynnwys egwyddor y dylai trethi helpu i gyflawni amcanion strategol ac yn benodol, y dylai trethi Cymru ysgogi swyddi a thwf economaidd. Dyna pam rydym wedi cyflwyno rhyddhad ardrethi busnes ychwanegol ar gyfer y stryd fawr a pham rydym wedi gosod y cyfraddau cychwyn isaf ar drethi ar gyfer trafodiadau eiddo preswyl a dibreswyl. Yn yr un modd, mae ein hegwyddorion polisi treth yn ein hymrwymo i ymgysylltu â threthdalwyr i helpu i lywio ein dull o ddatblygu polisi treth. Soniodd Nick Ramsay am bwysigrwydd dod â phobl gyda ni, a dyna'n bendant iawn yw'r dull rydym yn ei fabwysiadu o ran ceisio sefydlu perthynas newydd â phobl yng Nghymru.
Rydym yn cytuno â'r hyn a nodwyd yn yr ail welliant a gyflwynwyd i'r cynnig hwn gan Blaid Cymru, a byddem yn ei gefnogi fel arall oni bai ei fod wedi cael yr effaith o ddileu a disodli rhan o'r cynnig gwreiddiol rydym hefyd yn cytuno ag ef, ond yn bendant, nid ydym yn gweld na all y ddwy ran i'r cynnig gydfodoli.
Yr wythnos diwethaf, cymerodd y Cynulliad hwn y cam hanesyddol o bennu cyfraddau treth incwm cyntaf Cymru. I helpu i sicrhau pontio llyfn a threfnus i ddatganoli treth incwm yn rhannol, bydd trethdalwyr Cymru yn talu yr un cyfraddau â threthdalwyr Lloegr a Gogledd Iwerddon yn 2019-20. Nid oes gennyf unrhyw gynlluniau i newid y dreth incwm yn ystod y Cynulliad hwn. Byddai'n naïf, fodd bynnag, i ddweud na fyddem byth yn codi trethi yng Nghymru. Efallai y bydd yna amgylchiadau yn y dyfodol lle y ceir achos cryf dros newid teg a blaengar yn nhrethi Cymru i ddarparu'r cyllid sydd ei angen i barhau i ddarparu'r gwasanaethau cyhoeddus y mae pobl yng Nghymru eu heisiau.
Rwy'n ymwybodol, fodd bynnag, fod Cymru a'r DU yn wynebu'r newid mwyaf sylweddol yn y cyfnod modern wrth inni edrych tuag at ymadawiad y DU â'r UE. Wynebwn y posibilrwydd real iawn o senario 'dim bargen', ac o gofio hyn, ynghyd ag effaith barhaus cyni parhaol, mae'n iawn inni ddal ati i fonitro'r datblygiadau'n ofalus ac asesu eu heffaith ar ein sefyllfa ariannol. Felly, rydym yn hapus i gefnogi'r cynnig sydd ger ein bron heddiw, ac rydym yn diolch i'r Aelodau am eu cyfraniadau.
I call on Mark Isherwood to reply to the debate. Mark.
Galwaf ar Mark Isherwood i ymateb i'r ddadl. Mark.
Diolch. I'm still rapidly scribbling notes, because you've all said so much, and thanks very much to all the contributors. Nick Ramsay began by summoning the memory of Bobby Kennedy. We must remember his brother, JFK, when President, had argued that strong economic growth required lower taxes. Many in his own party disagreed with him, but, at the time, back in 1963, he was proved right.
He talked about how we need to make this work best for the people of Wales and use these new tax levers to nurture investment and generate economic growth in Wales in a new age of accountability for this Assembly and, of course, this Welsh Government to make the economy more competitive, to encourage more investors to come to Wales and create the better paid jobs that we need. And he talked about concerns about the Welsh Government commitment not to increase devolved income tax during this Assembly term, given the quotes, which he and others referred to, subsequently made by some Welsh Government members.
Rhun ap Iorwerth talked about the priority of ensuring economic growth and increased revenue by supporting indigenous businesses. Quite right: we agree with you, and we will be supportive of your amendment. You oppose, however, insisting that the Welsh Government not increase tax during this Assembly term—rather odd, particularly given that the Welsh Government themselves are going to be supporting this motion. Perhaps the public might note that Plaid Cymru are the only party perhaps proposing increased taxes during this Assembly term.
Diolch. Rwy'n dal i sgriblo nodiadau'n gyflym, gan eich bod i gyd wedi dweud cymaint, a diolch yn fawr i bawb a gyfrannodd. Dechreuodd Nick Ramsay drwy ein hatgoffa am Bobby Kennedy. Rhaid inni gofio bod ei frawd, JFK, pan oedd yn Arlywydd, wedi dadlau bod twf economaidd cryf yn galw am drethi is. Roedd llawer yn ei blaid ei hun yn anghytuno ag ef, ond ar y pryd, yn ôl yn 1963, fe'i profwyd yn gywir.
Soniodd ynglŷn â sut y mae angen inni wneud i hyn weithio yn y ffordd orau ar gyfer pobl Cymru a defnyddio'r ysgogiadau treth newydd hyn i feithrin buddsoddiad ac ysgogi twf economaidd yng Nghymru mewn oes newydd o atebolrwydd i'r Cynulliad hwn ac wrth gwrs, i'r Llywodraeth hon allu gwneud yr economi yn fwy cystadleuol, er mwyn annog mwy o fuddsoddwyr i ddod i Gymru a chreu'r swyddi cyflog gwell sydd eu hangen arnom. A soniodd am bryderon ynglŷn ag ymrwymiad Llywodraeth Cymru i beidio â chynyddu treth incwm ddatganoledig yn ystod tymor y Cynulliad hwn, o ystyried y dyfyniadau, y cyfeiriodd ef ac eraill atynt, a wnaethpwyd wedyn gan rai o aelodau Llywodraeth Cymru.
Siaradodd Rhun ap Iorwerth am y flaenoriaeth o sicrhau twf economaidd a mwy o refeniw drwy gefnogi busnesau cynhenid. Hollol gywir: rydym yn cytuno â chi, a byddwn yn cefnogi eich gwelliant. Fodd bynnag, rydych yn gwrthwynebu mynnu na ddylai Llywodraeth Cymru gynyddu'r dreth yn ystod tymor y Cynulliad hwn—rhyfedd braidd, yn enwedig o ystyried bod Llywodraeth Cymru eu hunain yn mynd i gefnogi'r cynnig hwn. Efallai y gallai'r cyhoedd nodi mai Plaid Cymru yw'r unig blaid sy'n argymell trethi uwch yn ystod tymor y Cynulliad hwn.
Will you take an amendment—an intervention?
A wnewch chi gymryd gwelliant—ymyriad?
Very, very quickly, yes.
Yn gyflym iawn, gwnaf.
Just in order to say again what I said in my speech earlier—that we weren't opposing this because we wanted to increase taxes, but that we wanted to give Governments the flexibility to be creative for the good of the Welsh people, in whatever way that may be. You never know what crisis might come ahead of us because of Brexit, for example, in the next few years.
Dim ond i ddweud eto beth a ddywedais yn fy araith yn gynharach—nad oeddem yn gwrthwynebu hyn am ein bod eisiau codi trethi, ond ein bod am i Lywodraethau gael hyblygrwydd i fod yn greadigol er lles pobl Cymru, ym mha ffordd bynnag y gall hynny fod. Ni wyddoch byth pa argyfwng a allai ein hwynebu oherwydd Brexit, er enghraifft, yn yr ychydig flynyddoedd nesaf.
Thank you. I'm sure that's helped the clarity of understanding of people in Wales.
Mohammad Asghar said that at the time of the referendum—the devolution referendum—people in Wales were told that our economic problems could only be solved by devolution, but Wales still remains lagging at the back of the UK economic league table. He said that an increased tax burden on Welsh taxpayers would restrain economic growth and damage jobs, and he asked the Minister to reaffirm Labour's manifesto promise not to increase income tax during this Assembly term. I think we got that confirmation at the end.
Alun Davies, well he bumbled along in his characteristic way. [Laughter.] In saying that nobody—[Interruption.] In saying that nobody called for reductions in expenditure during the budget debates, he perhaps exemplified the confusion between tax rates and tax revenues. But he was right when he called for fair and reasonable taxation that allows us to invest and reflects our ambitions, which is exactly what we're calling for in this debate also.
Suzy Davies quite rightly said Governments need a tax take, but we're talking about the people's money, that making tax all about the wealthiest doesn't increase the tax taken, and the need to consider that Wales has a far greater cross-border travel-to-work population than, for example, Scotland.
Neil Hamilton invoked the smashed glass, bricked-up impact of the window tax. He reminded us that people change behaviour to reflect the tax background of where they live and that Wales has to be competitive if it's to be prosperous in the years ahead.
Mark Reckless referred to a fall in revenue since the introduction of the Welsh Government's land transaction tax and warned that we need to be very careful what to do with income tax in this context.
The finance Minister used the catch-all phrase 'progressive approach'. That can mean many different things when applied to taxation, but rightly she says that we need to recognise the impact on the Welsh economy, jobs growth and fiscal position, looking to fair taxes in the future, and that she'd be supporting the motion and we thank her very much for that.
Let us remember that, since 2010, Chancellors at UK level have got more tax out of the rich than any of their predecessors. Let us remember that 58 per cent of tax across the UK is paid by the top 10 per cent of taxpayers. In Wales, the top 10 per cent are only contributing 44 per cent because there's so far fewer of them. Let us remember the research in 2016 by Cardiff Business School, which said that reducing the higher rate of income tax in Wales would raise additional revenue by attracting high earners. Let us remember that the Welsh Government itself has admitted that the most it would be able to get out of income tax would be to charge basic rate taxpayers, and the warning by the CBI that raising Welsh income tax should be a last resort, not a first response. Diolch yn fawr.
Diolch. Rwy'n siŵr fod hynny wedi helpu i wella dealltwriaeth pobl yng Nghymru.
Dywedodd Mohammad Asghar, ar adeg y refferendwm—y refferendwm datganoli—wrth bobl Cymru na ellid datrys ein problemau economaidd heblaw drwy ddatganoli, ond mae Cymru'n parhau i hofran ar waelod tabl cynghrair economaidd y DU. Dywedodd y byddai baich treth ychwanegol ar drethdalwyr Cymru yn atal twf economaidd a niweidio swyddi, a gofynnodd i'r Gweinidog ailddatgan addewid maniffesto'r Blaid Lafur i beidio â chodi'r dreth incwm yn ystod tymor y Cynulliad hwn. Credaf ein bod wedi cael y cadarnhad hwnnw ar y diwedd.
Alun Davies, wel fe fustachodd yn ei flaen yn ei ffordd arferol. [Chwerthin.] Drwy ddweud na alwodd neb—[Torri ar draws.] Drwy ddweud na alwodd neb am leihau gwariant yn ystod y dadleuon ar y gyllideb, efallai ei fod wedi portreadu'r dryswch rhwng cyfraddau treth a refeniw trethi. Ond roedd yn iawn pan alwodd am drethiant teg a rhesymol sy'n caniatáu i ni fuddsoddi ac sy'n adlewyrchu ein huchelgais, sef yn union yr hyn rydym ni'n galw amdano yn y ddadl hon hefyd.
Dywedodd Suzy Davies yn hollol gywir fod Llywodraethau angen derbyniadau treth, ond ein bod yn sôn am arian y bobl, nad yw gwneud treth yn rhywbeth sy'n ymwneud yn llwyr â'r mwyaf cyfoethog yn cynyddu derbyniadau treth, a'r angen i ystyried bod gan Gymru fwy o lawer o boblogaeth yn teithio i'r gwaith yn drawsffiniol na'r Alban, er enghraifft.
Cawsom ein hatgoffa gan Neil Hamilton am effaith y dreth ffenestri a barodd i bobl chwalu'r gwydr a gosod brics yn eu lle. Atgoffodd ni fod pobl yn newid ymddygiad i adlewyrchu cefndir treth y fan lle maent yn byw a bod yn rhaid i Gymru fod yn gystadleuol os yw'n mynd i ffynnu yn y blynyddoedd i ddod.
Cyfeiriodd Mark Reckless at ostyngiad mewn refeniw ers cyflwyno treth trafodiadau tir Llywodraeth Cymru a rhybuddiodd fod angen inni fod yn ofalus iawn beth a wnawn gyda'r dreth incwm yn y cyd-destun hwn.
Defnyddiodd y Gweinidog Cyllid yr ymadrodd dal popeth 'dull blaengar'. Gall hynny olygu llawer o wahanol bethau pan gaiff ei gymhwyso i drethiant, ond mae hi'n iawn i ddweud bod angen inni gydnabod yr effaith ar economi Cymru, twf swyddi a'r sefyllfa gyllidol wrth edrych ar drethi teg yn y dyfodol, ac y byddai'n cefnogi'r cynnig a diolch yn fawr iawn iddi am hynny.
Gadewch inni gofio, ers 2010, fod Cangellorion ar lefel y DU wedi cael mwy o dreth allan o'r cyfoethog nag unrhyw rai o'u rhagflaenwyr. Gadewch inni gofio bod 58 y cant o dreth ar draws y DU yn cael ei thalu gan y 10 y cant uchaf o drethdalwyr. Yng Nghymru, nid yw'r 10 y cant uchaf ond yn cyfrannu 44 y cant am fod cymaint yn llai ohonynt. Gadewch inni gofio'r ymchwil yn 2016 gan Ysgol Fusnes Caerdydd, a ddywedai y byddai gostwng y gyfradd uwch o dreth incwm yng Nghymru yn codi refeniw ychwanegol drwy ddenu rhai ar gyflogau mawr. Gadewch inni gofio bod Llywodraeth Cymru ei hun wedi cyfaddef mai'r mwyaf y byddai'n gallu ei gael o'r dreth incwm fyddai codi ar drethdalwyr ar y gyfradd sylfaenol, a'r rhybudd gan Gydffederasiwn Diwydiant Prydain y dylai codi'r dreth incwm yng Nghymru fod yn ddewis olaf, nid yn ymateb cyntaf. Diolch yn fawr.
Thank you. The propsal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We therefore defer the voting under this item until voting time.
Diolch. Y cynnig yw derbyn y cynnig heb ei ddiwygio. A oes unrhyw Aelod yn gwrthwynebu? [Gwrthwynebiad.] Rydym felly'n gohirio'r pleidleisio ar yr eitem hon tan y cyfnod pleidleisio.
Gohiriwyd y pleidleisio tan y cyfnod pleidleisio.
Voting deferred until voting time.
Unless three Members wish for the bell to be rung, I am going to proceed to voting time.
Oni bai bod tri Aelod yn dymuno i'r gloch gael ei chanu, rwy'n mynd i symud ymlaen at y cyfnod pleidleisio.
Okay, then. So, the first vote this afternoon is a vote on the motion under Standing Order 26.91 seeking the Assembly's agreement to introduce a Member Bill on older people's rights. I call for a vote on the motion tabled in the name of Darren Millar. Open the vote. Close the vote. For the motion 21, two abstentions, 27 against. Therefore, the motion is not agreed.
Iawn, felly. Y bleidlais gyntaf y prynhawn yma, felly, yw pleidlais ar y cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 26.91 yn ceisio cytundeb y Cynulliad i gyflwyno Bil Aelod ar hawliau pobl hŷn. Galwaf am bleidlais ar y cynnig a gyflwynwyd yn enw Darren Millar. Agor y bleidlais. Cau'r bleidlais. O blaid y cynnig 21, roedd dau yn ymatal, a 27 yn erbyn. Felly, gwrthodwyd y cynnig.
NDM6940 - Cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 26.91 yn ceisio cytundeb y Cynulliad i gyflwyno Bil Aelod ar Hawliau Pobl Hŷn: O blaid: 21, Yn erbyn: 27, Ymatal: 2
Gwrthodwyd y cynnig
NDM6940 - Motion under Standing Order 26.91 seeking the Assembly's agreement to introduce a Member Bill on Older Peoples Rights: For: 21, Against: 27, Abstain: 2
Motion has been rejected
We vote on the Member debate under Standing Order 11.21 on Allied Steel and Wire pensions. I call for a vote on the motion tabled in the name of Bethan Sayed. Open the vote. Close the vote. For the motion 49, no abstentions, none against. Therefore, the motion is agreed.
Pleidleisiwn ar y ddadl Aelodau o dan Reol Sefydlog 11.21 ar bensiynau Allied Steel and Wire. Galwaf am bleidlais ar y cynnig a gyflwynwyd yn enw Bethan Sayed. Agor y bleidlais. Cau'r bleidlais. O blaid y cynnig 49, neb yn ymatal, neb yn erbyn. Felly, derbyniwyd y cynnig.
NDM6919 - Dadl Aelodau o dan Reol Sefydlog 11.21(iv) - Pensiynau Allied Steel and Wire: O blaid: 49, Yn erbyn: 0, Ymatal: 0
Derbyniwyd y cynnig
NDM6919 - Member Debate under Standing Order 11.21(iv) - Allied Steel and Wire Pensions: For: 49, Against: 0, Abstain: 0
Motion has been agreed
We now move to vote on the Welsh Conservative debate on Welsh rates of income tax, and I call for a vote on the motion tabled in the name of Darren Millar. If the proposal is not agreed, we will vote on the amendments tabled to the motion. Open the vote. Close the vote. For the motion 42, no abstentions, eight against. Therefore, the motion is agreed.
Symudwn ymlaen yn awr i bleidleisio ar ddadl y Ceidwadwyr Cymreig ar gyfraddau treth incwm Cymru, a galwaf am bleidlais ar y cynnig a gyflwynwyd yn enw Darren Millar. Os na dderbynnir y cynnig, byddwn yn pleidleisio ar y gwelliannau a gyflwynwyd i'r cynnig. Agor y bleidlais. Cau'r bleidlais. O blaid y cynnig 42, neb yn ymatal, wyth yn erbyn. Felly, derbyniwyd y cynnig.
NDM6921 - Dadl Ceidwadwyr Cymreig - Cynnig heb ei ddiwygio: O blaid: 42, Yn erbyn: 8, Ymatal: 0
Derbyniwyd y cynnig
NDM6921 - Welsh Conservatives debate - Motion without amendment: For: 42, Against: 8, Abstain: 0
Motion has been agreed
We now move to the short debate. If Members are going out, can they go out quickly? We now move to the short debate, and I call on Janet Finch-Saunders to—[Interruption.] Just a minute. I now move to the short debate, and I call on Janet Finch-Saunders to speak to the topic she has chosen. Janet.
Symudwn ymlaen yn awr at y ddadl fer. Os oes Aelodau'n gadael, a allant fynd yn gyflym? Symudwn yn awr at y ddadl fer, a galwaf ar Janet Finch-Saunders i—[Torri ar draws.] Un funud. Symudaf yn awr at y ddadl fer, a galwaf ar Janet Finch-Saunders i siarad am y pwnc a ddewisodd. Janet.
Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer.
Making the most of rainy days in Wales—when many people think of Wales, one thing that comes to mind is its reputation as being accustomed to many rainy days. Indeed, according to the Met Office,
'Wales has an essentially maritime climate, characterised by weather that is often cloudy, wet and windy but mild'.
Snowdonia, in the north, is the wettest area, seeing an average annual rainfall exceeding 3,000 mm—far higher than coastal communities and those along the English border, which see less than 1,000 mm a year. Whilst this may seem small in comparison, we actually have very wet urban areas, too. Cardiff is the wettest city in the UK, seeing an average of 115 cm every year—more than Manchester.
Clearly, Wales as a whole, from Cardiff Bay to Capel Curig, is arguably the wettest part of the UK. Evidence of the abundance of rain here is apparent when considering the striking fact that of all nations in Europe, our United Kingdom has the fifth highest average precipitation, following Iceland, Switzerland, Albania and Norway.
In this debate, I'm going to give Suzy Davies a minute also.
The impact of rain is well known to this Chamber due to the devastation caused by flooding, such as in my constituency of Aberconwy. Rather than talk about these negatives, I want to trigger today a cascade of collaboration and conversation about what really could be our greatest natural resource: rain water.
We are not unfamiliar with the advantages of rain in Wales. Indeed, rain water is already used to produce clean, green energy, thanks to our hydro schemes. Unlike other sources of energy, hydropower offers long-term generation, and schemes have an 80-year life period, compared to those of 25 years for wind and solar, and 35 years for nuclear.
According to the Welsh Government, Wales is expected to generate 70 per cent of its electricity consumption from renewable energy by 2030. When considering that we are currently at around 50 per cent, and the longer lifespan of hydro schemes, it is logical to improve the production of renewable energy via hydro.
In fact, there is significant potential in this sector. For example, whilst there is currently an installed capacity of 1,676 MW in the UK, recent resource studies have indicated that there is a practical potential for a further 2 GW of capacity. More so, a report found that Wales has a potential viable hydropower capacity of between 26,730 kW and 63,000 kW. Clearly, this is a missed opportunity, especially with regard to developing further smaller schemes.
As Claire Perry, Minister of State for Energy and Clean Growth, stated:
'From power stations to solar panels, the future is local'.
She is correct. For example, there are around 600 rivers in Wales, many of which could potentially provide a source for hydropower, such as through micro, pico, and small-scale hydro schemes. I have been to visit a small development, just in my constituency, and am aware of a few other projects producing between 30 and 100 kW an hour, and I understand that my colleague Mark Isherwood went to a hydro scheme last week.
Diolch ichi, Ddirprwy Lywydd.
Gwneud y gorau o ddiwrnodau glawog yng Nghymru—pan fo llawer o bobl yn meddwl am Gymru, un peth a ddaw i'r meddwl yw ei henw fel man sydd wedi arfer â diwrnodau glawog niferus. Yn wir, yn ôl y Swyddfa Dywydd,
Mae gan Gymru hinsawdd sy'n arforol i bob pwrpas, gyda thywydd sy'n aml yn gymylog, yn wlyb a gwyntog ond yn fwyn.
Eryri, yn y gogledd, yw'r ardal wlypaf, a cheir glawiad blynyddol cyfartalog o dros 3,000 mm—sy'n uwch o lawer na'r cymunedau arfordirol a'r rhai ar hyd y ffin â Lloegr, sy'n cael llai na 1,000 mm y flwyddyn. Er y gall hyn ymddangos yn fach mewn cymhariaeth, mewn gwirionedd mae gennym ardaloedd trefol gwlyb iawn hefyd. Caerdydd yw'r ddinas wlypaf yn y DU, ac mae'n cael 115 cm ar gyfartaledd bob blwyddyn—mwy na Manceinion.
Yn amlwg, gellid dadlau mai Cymru gyfan, o Fae Caerdydd i Gapel Curig, yw'r rhan wlypaf o'r DU. Mae tystiolaeth o'r digonedd o law a geir yma yn amlwg o ystyried y ffaith drawiadol mai'r Deyrnas Unedig, o'r holl wledydd yn Ewrop, sydd yn y pumed safle o ran dyddodiad cyfartalog, ar ôl Gwlad yr Iâ, y Swistir, Albania a Norwy.
Yn y ddadl hon, rwy'n mynd i roi munud i Suzy Davies hefyd.
Mae effaith glaw yn hysbys iawn i'r Siambr hon oherwydd y dinistr a achosir gan lifogydd, fel yn fy etholaeth i, Aberconwy. Yn hytrach na sôn am y pethau negyddol hyn, heddiw rwyf am sbarduno rhaeadr o gydweithrediad a sgwrs am ddŵr glaw, ein hadnodd naturiol mwyaf o bosibl.
Nid ydym yn anghyfarwydd â manteision glaw yng Nghymru. Yn wir, defnyddir dŵr glaw eisoes i gynhyrchu ynni gwyrdd a glân, diolch i'n cynlluniau ynni dŵr. Yn wahanol i ffynonellau eraill o ynni, mae ynni dŵr yn cynnig cynhyrchiant hirdymor, ac mae gan gynlluniau hyd oes o 80 mlynedd, o gymharu â 25 mlynedd yn achos ynni gwynt ac ynni'r haul, a 35 mlynedd yn achos ynni niwclear.
Yn ôl Llywodraeth Cymru, mae disgwyl i Gymru gynhyrchu 70 y cant o'r trydan a ddefnyddia o ynni adnewyddadwy erbyn 2030. Wrth ystyried ein bod ar hyn o bryd ar oddeutu 50 y cant, a hyd oes hwy cynlluniau ynni dŵr, mae'n rhesymegol inni wella cynhyrchiant ynni adnewyddadwy drwy ynni dŵr.
Yn wir, ceir potensial sylweddol yn y sector hwn. Er enghraifft, er bod cynhwysedd gosodedig o 1,676 MW yn y DU ar hyn o bryd, mae astudiaethau diweddar o adnoddau wedi dangos bod potensial ymarferol i gael 2 GW pellach o gynhwysedd. Yn fwy na hynny, canfu adroddiad fod gan Gymru botensial ymarferol i ddarparu rhwng 26,730 kW a 63,000 kW o gynhwysedd ynni dŵr. Yn amlwg, dyma gyfle a gollwyd, yn enwedig o ran datblygiad pellach cynlluniau llai o faint.
Fel y dywedodd Claire Perry, y Gweinidog Gwladol dros Ynni a Thwf Glân:
O orsafoedd pŵer i baneli solar, mae'r dyfodol yn lleol.
Mae hi'n gywir. Er enghraifft, ceir tua 600 o afonydd yng Nghymru, a gallai llawer ohonynt ddarparu ffynhonnell bosibl ar gyfer ynni dŵr, er enghraifft drwy gynlluniau ynni dŵr micro, pico ac ar raddfa fach. Ymwelais â datblygiad bach yn fy etholaeth, ac rwy'n ymwybodol o brosiectau eraill sy'n cynhyrchu rhwng 30 a 100 kW yr awr, ac rwy'n deall bod fy nghyd-Aelod Mark Isherwood wedi bod yn gweld cynllun ynni dŵr yr wythnos diwethaf.
Bethesda, yes.
Bethesda, do.
Bethesda. However, as in the rest of Wales, hydro is simply not flourishing. 'Why?' is the question.
I'm aware that the Welsh Government already offers loans, grants, and technical support for the development of hydro schemes, such as through the local energy service, the rural community development fund, and sustainable production grant scheme. All sounds very positive, but the reality is somewhat different.
Now, having spoken to my constituents, I believe that some have had no choice other than to rely on bank loans to fund 100 per cent of their developments, whilst others receive a grant through Farming Connect for a service that would ultimately have been cheaper if sought independently. As put to me, all the avenues of support outlined by the Welsh Government are not encouraging, incentivising, or supporting investment in hydro by landowners.
Concerningly, finance remains a barrier to the introduction of more schemes, the growth of this important renewable energy and the utilisation of our rain. Indeed, as one riparian owner explained, the cost of the schemes are just simply too prohibitive. Now, as you might be aware, the feed-in tariff scheme is ending in March. It has been a success because, through this scheme, energy suppliers have been able to make regular payments to householders and communities who generate their own electricity. Now, in the face of this loss, I am pleased that the Government has acknowledged the importance of helping to maintain a route to market for small-scale, low-carbon generation, and that it is now consulting on the smart export guarantee.
Whilst looking to do more to help small hydro plants, I believe the Welsh Government and Natural Resources Wales—they have a part to play in this and they could do more. For example, I know that NRW have been asking for up to £1,500 for an extraction licence—contributing to the financial whirlpool that hydro currently seems to be for many. Additionally, I know too that NRW have actually made the development of some schemes almost impossible, having demanded in one instance—now, just listen to this—that metres of trench were dug by hand.
Unsurprisingly, my research has left me deeply disappointed at what seems to be an approach to hydro that just isn’t inspiring investment by our riparian landowners. They could be harnessing a great, free resource: rain water. This can be changed, by enabling hydro to flourish, through: introducing a hydropower development programme that provides a 50 per cent grant towards the total build cost of future hydropower schemes and a 75 per cent grant towards the cost of the consenting of future schemes; providing incentives to invest in infrastructure, such as loans for equipment to be paid off over longer timescales, in line with the lifetime of the asset. Also, they could be inviting landowners to register an interest in developing a scheme, and in return, where reasonable, receive a free feasibility study long before investment takes place, or them having to put money into pursuing design, planning, or licences.
Now, with regard to the latter point, you will be aware that planning authorities are expected to assess the opportunities for renewable and low-carbon energy in their area, and use the evidence to establish special policies in their development plan that identify the most appropriate locations for development. I have had a closer look at how they are expected to do this and have found that there is a particular emphasis on previous studies. Whilst this is reasonable, I believe that more could be achieved by inviting our landowners to work with Government to co-operate. Surely, this would be a positive step that would significantly help Wales to see and use the greater utilisation of rain.
What I am asking for requires quite a simple vision, one that I think we can all unite on: the need to create a greener and more resilient Wales. This is true down to each of our homes, where, I'm sad to say, most of us do not make the most of our rain.
This brings me to the final step that I think we ought to be considering to ensure that we are making the most of rain water. This is something that we have right here in this building: a rain-harvesting scheme, seeing water collected from the main roofs, stored in two 50,000-litre tanks for use in this building. For example, it has seen rain water utilised for flushing WCs, irrigation, and maintenance, resulting in the demand for water being cut to a minimum. Some of the other advantages of harvesting rain include the possibility of using this water for feeding animals, watering plants, heating systems, combating flooding and, most of all, tackling the increasing cost of utility bills, which, including the rise in the average water and sewage bill in Wales, is now around £439 in the last financial year.
When considering that harvesting systems can work off the roofs of almost all our homes, I think it a shame that there are only a few quotable examples. The reason for this might be the fact that there does not seem to be any support for rain water harvesting schemes in Wales. Indeed, the closest source of help offered by the Welsh Government is for land managers and farm businesses to acquire and install their own new rain water goods, be they guttering or downpipes. In my opinion, this situation is ludicrous, as what we are seeing is the Welsh Government simply paying for rain to go down the drain. Do you not agree that it would make sense to help fund those harvesting schemes too?
I want to close my contribution, which I hope has consisted of an important vision for Wales, and one that is achievable, if there is the ambition, if there is the aspiration, and if there is the drive. And I do like to surprise, so I'm going to say a Welsh quote from the most famous Welsh song:
Bethesda. Fodd bynnag, yng ngweddill Cymru, nid yw ynni dŵr yn ffynnu. 'Pam?' yw'r cwestiwn.
Rwy'n ymwybodol fod Llywodraeth Cymru eisoes yn cynnig benthyciadau, grantiau a chymorth technegol ar gyfer datblygu cynlluniau ynni dŵr, megis drwy'r gwasanaeth ynni lleol, y gronfa datblygu cymunedau gwledig, a'r cynllun grant cynhyrchu cynaliadwy. Mae'n swnio'n gadarnhaol iawn, ond mae'r realiti ychydig yn wahanol.
Nawr, ar ôl siarad â fy etholwyr, rwy'n credu bod rhai heb gael dewis heblaw dibynnu ar fenthyciadau banc i ariannu 100 y cant o'u datblygiadau, tra bod eraill yn derbyn grant drwy Cyswllt Ffermio ar gyfer gwasanaeth a fyddai wedi bod yn rhatach yn y pen draw pe baent wedi mynd ati'n annibynnol i'w ddarparu. Fel y cafodd ei roi i mi, nid oes yr un o'r holl ffyrdd o gael cymorth a amlinellir gan Lywodraeth Cymru yn annog, cymell neu gefnogi buddsoddiad mewn ynni dŵr gan dirfeddianwyr.
Mae'n ofid fod cyllid yn parhau i rwystro pobl rhag cyflwyno mwy o gynlluniau, twf yr ynni adnewyddadwy pwysig hwn a'r defnydd o'n glaw. Yn wir, fel yr eglurodd un perchennog glannau afon, mae cost y cynlluniau'n rhy uchel. Nawr, fel y gwyddoch efallai, mae'r cynllun tariff cyflenwi trydan yn dod i ben ym mis Mawrth. Bu'n llwyddiant oherwydd bod cyflenwyr ynni, drwy'r cynllun hwn, wedi gallu gwneud taliadau rheolaidd i ddeiliaid tai a chymunedau sy'n cynhyrchu eu trydan eu hunain. Nawr, yn wyneb y golled hon, rwy'n falch fod y Llywodraeth wedi cydnabod pwysigrwydd helpu i gynnal llwybr i'r farchnad ar gyfer cynhyrchiant carbon isel ar raddfa fach, a'i bod bellach yn ymgynghori ar y warant allforio doeth.
Wrth geisio gwneud mwy i helpu safleoedd ynni dŵr bach, credaf y dylai Llywodraeth Cymru a Cyfoeth Naturiol Cymru—mae ganddynt ran i'w chwarae yn hyn a gallent wneud mwy. Er enghraifft, gwn fod Cyfoeth Naturiol Cymru wedi bod yn gofyn am hyd at £1,500 am drwydded echdynnu—gan gyfrannu at y pwll tro ariannol y mae llawer yn tybio yw ynni dŵr ar hyn o bryd. Gwn hefyd fod Cyfoeth Naturiol Cymru wedi gwneud y gwaith o ddatblygu rhai cynlluniau bron yn amhosibl, ar ôl mynnu mewn un achos—nawr, gwrandewch ar hyn—fod metrau o ffos yn cael eu cloddio â llaw.
Nid yw'n syndod fod fy ymchwil wedi fy ngwneud yn siomedig iawn ynglŷn â'r ymagwedd ymddangosiadol tuag at ynni dŵr nad yw'n ysbrydoli ein tirfeddianwyr glannau afon i fuddsoddi. Gallent fod yn harneisio adnodd gwych, rhad ac am ddim: dŵr glaw. Gellir newid hyn drwy alluogi ynni dŵr i ffynnu drwy: gyflwyno rhaglen datblygu ynni dŵr sy'n darparu grant o 50 y cant tuag at gyfanswm y gost o adeiladu cynlluniau ynni dŵr yn y dyfodol a grant o 75 y cant tuag at y gost o roi caniatâd i gynlluniau yn y dyfodol; darparu cymhellion i fuddsoddi mewn seilwaith, megis benthyciadau ar gyfer offer i'w talu dros gyfnodau hwy o amser, i gyd-fynd â hyd oes yr ased. Hefyd, gallent fod yn gwahodd tirfeddianwyr i fynegi diddordeb mewn datblygu cynllun, ac yn gyfnewid, lle y bo hynny'n rhesymol, gallent gael astudiaeth ddichonoldeb yn rhad ac am ddim ymhell cyn i fuddsoddi ddigwydd, neu cyn iddynt orfod rhoi arian tuag at ddylunio, cynlluniau neu drwyddedau.
Nawr, o ran y pwynt olaf, fe fyddwch yn ymwybodol fod disgwyl i awdurdodau cynllunio asesu'r cyfleoedd ar gyfer ynni adnewyddadwy ac ynni carbon isel yn eu hardal, a defnyddio'r dystiolaeth i sefydlu polisïau arbennig yn eu cynllun datblygu sy'n nodi'r lleoliadau mwyaf priodol ar gyfer datblygu. Rwyf wedi edrych yn agosach ar sut y mae disgwyl iddynt wneud hyn ac wedi gweld bod pwyslais arbennig ar astudiaethau blaenorol. Er bod hyn yn rhesymol, credaf y gellid cyflawni mwy drwy wahodd ein tirfeddianwyr i weithio gyda'r Llywodraeth a chydweithredu. Yn sicr, byddai hwn yn gam cadarnhaol a fyddai'n helpu Cymru'n sylweddol i weld a gwneud mwy o ddefnydd o law.
Mae'r hyn rwy'n gofyn amdano'n galw am weledigaeth go syml, un y credaf y gallwn i gyd gytuno arni: yr angen i greu Cymru fwy gwyrdd a mwy gwydn. Mae hyn yn wir i lawr i lefel pob un o'n cartrefi, lle mae arnaf ofn nad yw'r rhan fwyaf ohonom yn gwneud y mwyaf o'n glaw.
Daw hyn â mi at y cam olaf y credaf y dylem ei ystyried i sicrhau ein bod yn gwneud y gorau o ddŵr glaw. Mae'n rhywbeth sydd gennym yma yn yr adeilad hwn: cynllun casglu dŵr glaw, sy'n golygu bod dŵr glaw yn cael ei gasglu oddi ar y prif doeau, ei storio mewn dau danc 50,000 litr a'i ddefnyddio yn yr adeilad hwn. Er enghraifft, gwelwyd defnydd o ddŵr glaw i fflysio toiledau, i ddyfrhau a chynnal a chadw, gan arwain at dorri'r galw am ddŵr i gyn lleied â phosibl. Mae rhai o fanteision eraill casglu dŵr glaw yn cynnwys y posibilrwydd o ddefnyddio'r dŵr ar gyfer bwydo anifeiliaid, dyfrio planhigion, systemau gwresogi, gwrthsefyll llifogydd ac yn bennaf oll, er mwyn talu costau cynyddol biliau cyfleustodau, sydd bellach, o gynnwys y codiad yn y bil dŵr a charthfosiaeth cyfartalog yng Nghymru, oddeutu £439 yn y flwyddyn arannol ddiwethaf.
Wrth ystyried y gall systemau casglu dŵr weithio oddi ar doeau bron bob un o'n cartrefi, credaf ei bod yn drueni na cheir fawr o enghreifftiau y gellir cyfeirio atynt. Y rheswm am hyn o bosibl yw'r ffaith nad yw'n ymddangos bod unrhyw gefnogaeth ar gael ar gyfer cynlluniau casglu dŵr glaw yng Nghymru. Yn wir, mae'r ffynhonnell agosaf o gymorth a gynigir gan Lywodraeth Cymru ar gyfer rheolwyr tir a busnesau fferm i gaffael a gosod eu nwyddau dŵr glaw newydd eu hunain, boed yn gafnau neu bibellau dŵr. Yn fy marn i, mae'r sefyllfa hon yn chwerthinllyd, gan mai'r hyn a welwn yw Llywodraeth Cymru yn talu i law fynd i lawr y draen. Onid ydych yn cytuno y byddai'n gwneud synnwyr i helpu i ariannu'r cynlluniau casglu dŵr glaw hynny hefyd?
Hoffwn gloi fy nghyfraniad—a gobeithiaf ei fod wedi darparu gweledigaeth bwysig ar gyfer Cymru, ac un y gellir ei chyflawni, os oes uchelgais, os oes dyhead, ac os oes ysgogiad. Ac rwy'n hoff o roi sypreisys, felly rwy'n mynd i ddyfynnu o gân Gymraeg enwog iawn:
‘Hen Gymru fynyddig, paradwys y bardd, / Pob dyffryn, pob clogwyn, i'm golwg sydd hardd; / Trwy deimlad gwladgarol, mor swynol yw si / Ei nentydd, afonydd, i mi.'
'Old land of the mountains, the Eden of bards, / Each gorge and each valley a loveliness guards; / Through love of my country, charmed voices will be / Its streams, and its rivers, to me.'
Do you not agree, Minister, that the landscape so famously described in those beautiful lyrics has the potential of offering more to Wales, and indeed, that the sound of the streams and the rivers would be even sweeter when the water they guide has had the best opportunity possible to create green energy, to be used in our homes, and to help to reduce our energy bills?
Diolch yn fawr iawn.
Onid ydych yn cytuno, Weinidog, fod gan y dirwedd a ddisgrifir mor enwog yn y geiriau hardd hynny botensial i gynnig mwy i Gymru, ac yn wir, y byddai sŵn y nentydd a'r afonydd yn felysach byth pan fydd y dŵr a gyfeiriant wedi cael y cyfle gorau posibl i greu ynni gwyrdd, i'w ddefnyddio yn ein cartrefi, ac i helpu i leihau ein biliau ynni?
Diolch yn fawr iawn.
Thank you for the perfect segue there, Janet, because I was just about to say that even though we hear that tourists grumble about the rain in Wales, actually, it’s rain that’s our secret weapon. It helps, along with the good work of farmers and other environmentalists, to create the landscapes that make this such an attractive country, with its green fields, and its peat bogs, and its rivers, and its lakes.
The hydro schemes that Janet was talking about as well, well, of course, they’re an attraction in and of themselves. Obviously, Dinorwig is the big star of the show on this one, but, as Dai will know, we have a small hydro scheme in the Penllergare woods in our region, and that is itself part of the attraction of that valley.
The Year of Adventure, the Year of the Sea, I think Visit Wales—well, they’ve obviously spotted that water's important to what we sell here in Wales, and I’m hoping that the statistics of our visitor numbers in the next couple of years will show that visitors really love the waters of Wales.
Diolch i chi am bontio'n berffaith, Janet, oherwydd roeddwn ar fin dweud hyd yn oed os ydym yn clywed bod twristiaid yn cwyno am y glaw yng Nghymru, mewn gwirionedd, glaw yw ein harf cudd. Mae'n helpu, ynghyd â gwaith da ffermwyr ac amgylcheddwyr eraill, i greu y tirweddau sy'n gwneud hon yn wlad mor atyniadol, gyda'i chaeau gwyrdd, a'i mawnogydd, a'i hafonydd a'i llynnoedd.
Mae'r cynlluniau ynni dŵr roedd Janet yn sôn amdanynt yn atyniad ynddynt eu hunain hefyd wrth gwrs. Yn amlwg, Dinorwig yw seren fawr y sioe yn hyn o beth, ond fel y gŵyr Dai, mae gennym gynllun ynni dŵr bach yng nghoedwig Penllergare yn ein rhanbarth, ac mae hynny ynddo'i hun yn rhan o atyniad y dyffryn hwnnw.
Blwyddyn Antur, Blwyddyn y Môr, credaf fod Croeso Cymru—wel, mae'n amlwg eu bod wedi sylweddoli bod dŵr yn bwysig i'r hyn a werthwn yma yng Nghymru, ac rwy'n gobeithio y bydd ystadegau niferoedd yr ymwelwyr yn y flwyddyn neu ddwy nesaf yn dangos bod ymwelwyr wrth eu boddau â dyfroedd Cymru.
I now call the Minister for Environment, Energy and Rural Affairs to reply to the debate—Lesley Griffiths.
Galwaf ar Weinidog yr Amgylchedd, Ynni a Materion Gwledig i ymateb i'r ddadl—Lesley Griffiths.
Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer, and thank you, Janet, for bringing forward this short debate today.
We certainly do see a lot of rainfall in Wales. However, I'm sure it won't be a surprise to Members to know that it doesn't always fall in the right place or at the right time for us to make the most of it, and managing its uses and its impacts can certainly be challenging. So, I think it's helpful to set the scene. The nature of Wales's geography and geology means very little rainwater is able to be retained, with about 3 per cent being captured by water companies' infrastructure. Around 95 per cent of the water captured for use in Wales comes from surface water abstraction, as our groundwater reserves hold less than 5 per cent of the water needed for public supplies.
Diolch, Ddirprwy Lywydd, a diolch i chi, Janet, am gyflwyno'r ddadl fer hon heddiw.
Yn sicr gwelwn lawer o law yng Nghymru. Fodd bynnag, rwy'n sicr na fydd yn syndod i'r Aelodau wybod nad yw bob amser yn syrthio yn y lle iawn nac ar yr adeg iawn i ni allu gwneud y gorau ohono, a gall rheoli ei ddefnydd a'i effeithiau fod yn heriol yn sicr. Felly, credaf ei bod yn ddefnyddiol inni osod y cefndir. Mae natur daearyddiaeth a daeareg yn golygu na ellir casglu ond ychydig iawn o ddŵr glaw gyda thua 3 y cant ohono'n cael ei ddal gan seilwaith y cwmnïau dŵr. Daw tua 95 y cant o'r dŵr a ddelir i'w ddefnyddio yng Nghymru o echdynnu dŵr wyneb, gan nad yw ein cronfeydd dŵr daear ond yn dal llai na 5 y cant o'r dŵr sydd ei angen ar gyfer cyflenwadau cyhoeddus.
Water is indeed one of our greatest natural assets and an integral part of our culture, our heritage and our national identity, shaping our natural environment and our landscapes. Our rainwater falls into over 120 catchments that are subject to a variety of land use types and management practices, all of which impact on water quality. Much of Wales is mountainous with comparatively low populations, adding to the challenges in terms of the infrastructure needed to supply customers in some areas. Due to our topography, as rainfall progresses speedily towards the coast during heavy rainfall events, it picks up pollutants as it drains into our rivers and can also overwhelm our mainly Victorian sewerage systems, creating flood risks. So, the challenges we face are likely to become increasingly difficult, for example with the UK climate projections predicting drier summers and wetter winters in Wales.
I think it's really useful to remember, but it's slightly ironic in the context of today's debate, the exceptionally dry summer we experienced last year, with even less rainfall in Wales than in 1976—for those of us old enough in the Chamber to remember 1976. This brought its own challenges for the water companies in terms of resilience.
So, with all of this to take into consideration, we are committed to a more integrated approach to the management of our water, in line with our natural resources management policy and the Environment (Wales) Act 2016. And in 2015 we published our water strategy for Wales, setting out our long-term policy direction.
So, when I saw the title of Janet Finch-Saunders's short debate today, I wasn't quite sure where we were going, but, obviously, Janet referred to hydropower, which is a very important part of our energy mix, and I too have been fortunate to visit several small hydropower schemes. Janet seemed to question Welsh Government's commitment to them, but just today, I announced the continuation of 100 per cent business rate support for community hydropower projects for 2019-20. And the scheme has already supported almost 50 hydropower projects in the year, including seven community-owned projects. So, the continuation of the grant scheme will enable eligible projects to retain the maximum possible benefit for their local area, enabling them to reinvest into the local community.
I think Janet mentioned that Mark Isherwood had visited Ynni Ogwen, as I did back in November. It was very interesting to see that the founder director of that project said:
'The Welsh Government’s support for community hydro schemes towards the cost of business rates has been a great help to us, saving us £14,000 over our first two years and ensuring the hard work of our volunteers in setting up the scheme has borne fruit. I am really pleased this support will continue after 1st April. This will give us great confidence as we consider whether we can proceed with our second scheme next year.'
And Janet referred to the feed-in tariff ending, and I really do think you're pushing at an open door with me and Welsh Government—it's the door in the UK Government where you have your Tory Ministers who are ending the feed-in tariffs—. And I have to say, I also visited a hydropower scheme not far out of Machynlleth, on a farm, and the farmer said to me that with all the expertise that he's gained from putting the scheme on his farm, he would very much like to do another one in the next valley, along with another farmer. But because of the reduction in the feed-in tariff, it simply wasn't worth it. So, I think it's not just Welsh Government that needs to bring forward initiatives to support hydropower—it's also the UK Conservative Government. But I do think well-designed hydropower schemes are a great example of how we can really harness our natural resources that are available to us for the benefit of local communities, while making sure that we protect the river environment.
I just wanted to say, at the other end of the scale, we've obviously got the groundbreaking sustainable drainage systems regulations that just came into force a couple of weeks ago on 7 January. Again, it will see innovative ways of reducing surface water run-off and enhancing wildlife and biodiversity in urban environments. And it also contributes to the protection of 163,000 properties in Wales, which are currently at risk from surface water flooding. The SuDS approach will also provide additional benefits from utilising rainwater, such as rainwater harvesting systems, which do have the potential to reduce the demand for treated water in homes and businesses.
Janet also mentioned farmers, and we provide grant funding to farmers for water harvesting and filtering equipment, and our sustainable production grant focuses on nutrients management and storage in order to reduce pollution incidents in our watercourses and the impacts on the associated flora and fauna.
Another initiative—back in December, I published a revised version of 'Planning Policy Wales', 'Planning Policy Wales: Edition 10'. It emphasises the need to embrace integrated approaches for the planning and management of water resources in both urban and rural areas and highlights good practice for utilising our water resources in Wales.
As a Government, we also work very closely with the water companies in Wales, and our main water company, Dŵr Cymru, is proposing to spend a record £74 million on research and innovation from 2020 to 2024. I think what that investment will do is see further collaboration between Welsh Water and our land managers to protect water quality and improve the land's ability to retain water, whilst also improving our ecosystem resilience and biodiversity within one of our most treasured areas of outstanding natural beauty.
So, we continue to plan for longer term water resilience. We need to take steps to support our environment, communities and businesses, and the water companies are currently preparing their water resource management plans for the next 25-year period from 2020. These plans will show how the demand for water is going to be managed and met up to 2045, and the plans are required to take into account climate change projections, population growth and new developments.
Water policy is a key topic here in Wales, and we will need collectively to exhibit strong leadership to continue to secure the maximum benefits for the people of Wales. Diolch.
Yn wir, mae dŵr yn un o'n hasedau naturiol mwyaf ac yn rhan annatod o'n diwylliant, ein treftadaeth a'n hunaniaeth genedlaethol, ac mae'n rhoi ffurf i'n hamgylchedd naturiol a'n tirweddau. Mae ein dŵr glaw yn syrthio i dros 120 o ddalgylchoedd sy'n ddarostyngedig i amrywiaeth o fathau o ddefnydd tir ac arferion rheoli, a phob un yn effeithio ar ansawdd dŵr. Mae llawer o Gymru'n fynyddig gyda phoblogaeth gymharol isel, gan ychwanegu at yr heriau o ran y seilwaith sydd ei angen i gyflenwi i gwsmeriaid mewn rhai ardaloedd. Oherwydd ein topograffi, wrth i law nesu'n gyflym tuag at yr arfordir yn ystod glaw trwm, mae'n codi llygryddion wrth iddo ddraenio i mewn i'n hafonydd a gall orlethu ein systemau carthffosiaeth sy'n rhai Fictoraidd yn bennaf, gan greu perygl o lifogydd. Felly, mae'r heriau a wynebwn yn debygol o ddod yn fwyfwy anodd, er enghraifft gyda rhagolygon hinsawdd y DU yn darogan hafau sychach a gaeafau gwlypach yng Nghymru.
Credaf ei bod yn ddefnyddiol iawn inni gofio, ond mae braidd yn eironig yng nghyd-destun y ddadl heddiw, yr haf eithriadol o sych a gawsom y llynedd, gyda llai o law yng Nghymru nag yn 1976 hyd yn oed—i'r rhai ohonom yn y Siambr sy'n ddigon hen i gofio 1976. Creodd hyn ei heriau ei hun i'r cwmnïau dŵr o ran y gallu i wrthsefyll hinsawdd.
Felly, gyda hyn oll i'w ystyried, rydym wedi ymrwymo i ddull mwy integredig o reoli ein dŵr, yn unol â'n polisi rheoli adnoddau naturiol a Deddf yr Amgylchedd (Cymru) 2016. Ac yn 2015, cyhoeddwyd ein strategaeth ddŵr ar gyfer Cymru, sy'n nodi ein cyfeiriad polisi hirdymor.
Felly, pan welais deitl dadl fer Janet Finch-Saunders heddiw, nid oeddwn yn hollol siŵr i ble roeddem yn mynd, ond yn amlwg, cyfeirio at ynni dŵr a wnaeth Janet, rhywbeth sy'n rhan bwysig iawn o'n cymysgedd ynni, ac rwyf finnau hefyd wedi bod yn ffodus i ymweld â sawl cynllun ynni dŵr bach. Roedd Janet i'w gweld yn cwestiynu ymrwymiad Llywodraeth Cymru iddynt, ond heddiw ddiwethaf, cyhoeddais barhad y cynllun cymorth ardrethi busnes o 100 y cant ar gyfer prosiectau ynni dŵr cymunedol ar gyfer 2019-20. Ac mae'r cynllun eisoes wedi cefnogi bron i 50 o brosiectau ynni dŵr yn y flwyddyn, gan gynnwys saith prosiect sy'n eiddo i'r gymuned. Felly, bydd parhad y cynllun grantiau'n galluogi prosiectau cymwys i gadw'r budd mwyaf posibl ar gyfer eu hardal leol, gan eu galluogi i ail-fuddsoddi yn y gymuned leol.
Credaf fod Janet wedi crybwyll bod Mark Isherwood wedi ymweld ag Ynni Ogwen, fel y gwneuthum innau ym mis Tachwedd. Roedd yn ddiddorol iawn gweld bod sylfaenydd-gyfarwyddwr y prosiect hwnnw wedi dweud:
'Mae'r cymorth a gafwyd oddi wrth Lywodraeth Cymru ar gyfer cynlluniau ynni dŵr cymunedol i helpu gyda chost ardrethi busnes wedi bod yn help mawr inni, gan arbed £14,000 inni yn ystod ein dwy flynedd gyntaf a sicrhau bod y gwaith caled a wnaeth ein gwirfoddolwyr wrth sefydlu'r cynllun wedi dwyn ffrwyth. Dwi'n falch iawn bod y cymorth hwn yn parhau ar ôl 1 Ebrill. Bydd hyn yn rhoi tipyn o hyder inni wrth inni bwyso a mesur a allwn ni fwrw 'mlaen â'n hail gynllun y flwyddyn nesa.'
Cyfeiriodd Janet at y tariff cyflenwi trydan yn dod i ben, ac o ddifrif, rwy'n credu eich bod yn pwyso wrth ddrws agored gyda mi a Llywodraeth Cymru—y drws yn Llywodraeth y DU lle mae gennych eich Gweinidogion Torïaidd sy'n dod â'r tariff cyflenwi trydan i ben—. A rhaid imi ddweud, ymwelais hefyd â chynllun ynni dŵr nid nepell o Fachynlleth, ar fferm, a dywedodd y ffermwr wrthyf, gyda'r holl arbenigedd a enillodd o roi'r cynllun ar ei fferm, y byddai'n hoffi'n fawr gwneud un arall yn y cwm nesaf, gyda ffermwr arall. Ond oherwydd y gostyngiad yn y tariff cyflenwi trydan, nid oedd yn mynd i fod yn werth ei wneud. Felly, credaf nad Llywodraeth Cymru yn unig sydd angen cyflwyno mentrau i gefnogi ynni dŵr—mae angen i Lywodraeth Geidwadol y DU wneud hynny hefyd. Ond rwy'n credu bod cynlluniau ynni dŵr wedi'u cynllunio'n dda yn enghraifft wych o sut y gallwn harneisio ein hadnoddau naturiol sydd ar gael i ni er budd cymunedau lleol, gan wneud yn siŵr ein bod yn gwarchod amgylchedd afonydd.
Ar ben arall y raddfa, roeddwn am ddweud wrth gwrs fod gennym y rheoliadau systemau draenio cynaliadwy arloesol a ddaeth i rym ychydig wythnosau'n ôl ar 7 Ionawr. Unwaith eto, byddant yn arwain at ffyrdd arloesol o leihau dŵr ffo a gwella bywyd gwyllt a bioamrywiaeth mewn amgylcheddau trefol. Ac mae hefyd yn cyfrannu at amddiffyn 163,000 eiddo yng Nghymru, sydd ar hyn o bryd yn wynebu perygl o lifogydd dŵr wyneb. Bydd y dull SDCau hefyd yn darparu manteision ychwanegol o ddefnyddio dŵr glaw, megis systemau casglu dŵr glaw, sydd â photensial i leihau'r galw am ddŵr wedi'i drin mewn cartrefi a busnesau.
Cyfeiriodd Janet hefyd at ffermwyr, ac rydym yn darparu cyllid grant i ffermwyr ar gyfer offer casglu a hidlo dŵr, ac mae ein grant cynhyrchu cynaliadwy yn canolbwyntio ar reoli a storio maethynnau er mwyn lleihau achosion o lygredd yn ein cyrsiau dŵr a'r effeithiau ar fflora a ffawna cysylltiedig.
Menter arall—ym mis Rhagfyr, cyhoeddais fersiwn ddiwygiedig o 'Polisi Cynllunio Cymru', ' Polisi Cynllunio Cymru: Argraffiad 10'. Mae'n pwysleisio'r angen i fanteisio ar ddulliau integredig ar gyfer cynllunio a rheoli adnoddau dŵr mewn ardaloedd trefol a gwledig ac mae'n amlygu arferion da ar gyfer defnyddio ein hadnoddau dŵr yng Nghymru.
Fel Llywodraeth, rydym hefyd yn gweithio'n agos iawn gyda'r cwmnïau dŵr yng Nghymru, ac mae ein prif gwmni dŵr, Dŵr Cymru, yn bwriadu gwario £74 miliwn, mwy nag erioed o'r blaen, ar ymchwil ac arloesedd rhwng 2020 a 2024. Credaf mai'r hyn y bydd y buddsoddiad hwnnw'n ei wneud fydd sicrhau rhagor o gydweithio rhwng ein rheolwyr tir a Dŵr Cymru i ddiogelu ansawdd dŵr a gwella gallu'r tir i ddal dŵr, gan wella cydnerthedd ecosystemau a bioamrywiaeth yn un o'r ardaloedd o harddwch naturiol eithriadol a drysorwn fwyaf.
Felly, rydym yn parhau i gynllunio ar gyfer cydnerthedd dŵr mwy hirdymor. Mae angen inni roi camau ar waith i gefnogi ein hamgylchedd, ein cymunedau a'n busnesau, ac mae'r cwmnïau dŵr ar hyn o bryd yn paratoi eu cynlluniau rheoli dŵr ar gyfer y cyfnod nesaf o 25 mlynedd o 2020 ymlaen. Bydd y cynlluniau hyn yn dangos sut y rheolir ac y diwellir y galw am ddŵr hyd at 2045, ac mae angen y cynlluniau er mwyn ystyried amcanestyniadau newid hinsawdd, twf y boblogaeth a datblygiadau newydd.
Mae polisi dŵr yn bwnc allweddol yma yng Nghymru, a bydd angen inni arddangos arweinyddiaeth gadarn ar y cyd er mwyn parhau i sicrhau'r manteision mwyaf posibl i bobl Cymru. Diolch.
Thank you very much. And that brings today's proceedings to a close. Thank you.
Diolch yn fawr iawn. A daw hynny â thrafodion heddiw i ben. Diolch.
Daeth y cyfarfod i ben am 17:51.
The meeting ended at 17:51.