Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru

Good afternoon, everybody. 

We'll get under way. Before we move ahead with today's agenda, I wish to communicate my ruling in response to the point of order raised by Heledd Fychan MS at the end of the meeting on 23 September 2026. I have had an opportunity to review the Record of Proceedings. My ruling is that the contribution made by Joe Martin MS to the short debate on 23 September breached Standing Order 13.9(v), as it constituted

'disorderly, discriminatory or offensive language or language which detracts from the dignity of the Senedd'.

I want to make it clear that Members of the Senedd are entitled to hold and express strong and differing views. I will defend the rights of all Members to express their perspectives and to challenge that of other Members. It is the nature of parliamentary debate that Members will frequently disagree, and often in a robust manner. However, contributions must comply with the Standing Orders and the required standards of conduct in a parliamentary setting. And they must be grounded in respect for others at all times. This ruling concerns the language used and the manner in which the contribution was expressed, rather than the right to debate the subject matter.

I have written to Joe Martin concerning my ruling, and to require that he ensures that the language used meets the requirements of order and respect in future. That is my ruling. 

Can we now move to item 1, please? We have nominations for a committee Chair. I now invite nominations under Standing Order 17.2F for the Chair of the Legislation Committee, which has been allocated to the Reform group, agreed in accordance with Standing Order 17.2A. Only a Member from the political group that has been allocated that committee may be nominated as Chair, and only a Member of the same political group may make the nomination. If a Member objects to a nomination, or there are two or more nominations, a secret ballot will be held. I invite nominations.

Can I propose Cai Parry-Jones?

Thank you. Cai Parry-Jones is nominated. Do we have a seconder? 

Can I second, Llywydd?

Thank you very much. We have a mover and a seconder. Are there any further nominations?

Can I propose Cristiana Emsley?

Cristiana Emsley is nominated. Do we have a seconder?

Yes, Llywydd, thank you.

We have a seconder. Are there any further nominations? The election of the Chair for this committee will now duly take place by secret ballot. So, the secret ballot will be held in briefing room 13 in the Senedd, and electronically. Members will be e-mailed when the voting opens, and voting will close after two hours. The clerk will be responsible for supervising the voting and for counting the votes. Following the secret ballot, I will announce the result at the end of Plenary today. 

We will move now to item 2, questions to the First Minister. And the first question is from Cristiana Emsley. 

Each public body is responsible for its own compliance with the Freedom of Information Act 2000 and the UK general data protection regulation. The Welsh Government supports good practice through engagement with public bodies, while recognising that compliance is independently overseen and enforced by the Information Commissioner’s Office.

Diolch, Brif Weinidog. The right to information is meaningless if citizens have to fight public bodies to simply obtain information that they're legally entitled to. Your own Government recognises the statutory deadlines for freedom of information and subject access requests. 

So, I have a very simple question: does the Welsh Government actually monitor whether devolved public bodies in Wales are complying with those legal obligations, and, if so, will you publish that information? Because, if your Government doesn't even know which public bodies are repeatedly failing to comply with the public's right to information, how can you credibly claim that transparency in Wales is being reinforced, rather than merely advertised?

As I explained in my initial answer, there is no role for Welsh Government to enforce when it comes to other public bodies in Wales. Every public body itself is responsible for its own compliance with the requirements of the Act, in this respect. It is something that my Government considers to be very important: we take very seriously our own responsibilities under the Act; we perform well according to our responsibilities under the Act. But it is, under that Act, the duty of every public body to make sure that they adhere to the requirements put on them by the Information Commissioner's Office.

First Minister, public bodies often like to swerve responding to freedom of information requests, especially if the response might make them look bad. This is something that I have experienced first-hand, and it's something, sadly, that has been raised by many of my constituents in the past. Some organisations often like to keep kicking the can down the road to avoid responding, hoping the person seeking information just simply forgets about it. It's frustrating, especially when public bodies are legally bound to provide information. Clearly, improvements could be made. So, First Minister, I'd like to know what discussions have you had with the Information Commissioner's Office about addressing these concerns. I appreciate the response that you just gave to the worthy Member, but if a public body repeatedly fails to respond on time, what action will this Plaid Cymru Government be taking?

Well, the actions are actions that can be taken by the Information Commissioner's Office—that is what is spelt out by the Act. I again emphasise that this is something that we consider to be very important in terms of public life in Wales, and that is why we do promote good practice, through engagement with public bodies across the board in Wales. But, ultimately, this is a question around an non-devolved issue that has to be addressed to the ICO itself.

We have delivered our first 100 days commitment to commission a review of the local government funding formula. Independent research by the Wales Centre for Public Policy, which has been commissioned, complements also an extensive programme of work already under way with local government to review the formula and ensure that it better reflects the real cost of delivering services in different parts of Wales.

Diolch, Brif Weinidog. The local government settlement for the current financial year was finalised under the previous Welsh Labour Government, following extensive engagement with local authorities. This used an established formula of complex indicators, including population density, service demand and levels of poverty and deprivation, and work was going on to ensure that that was all updated. The local authorities who received the largest annual increase in funding based on that set formula were Newport, Swansea, Blaenau Gwent, Wrexham and Merthyr Tydfil. Following the recent cost-of-living funding announcement, local authorities are now grappling with the realisation that this Plaid Cymru Government does not believe levels of poverty and service demand should be the greatest determinants of Welsh Government funding to tackle poverty. First Minister, can you confirm which local authorities will not receive extra funding to tackle poverty?

I'm grateful for the question, from somebody who held a local government ministerial role and who, in fact, instigated work on looking at the formula. Because there is a sense that, somehow, there needs to be a refining of it, and that refinement needs to take place on a number of different levels. There are issues of deprivation that are predominantly urban in nature, there are issues of deprivation that are predominantly rural in nature, and there are issues of deprivation that are equally relevant to both. What I think is positive in taking this view, which the previous administration also supported, is that we work with local government. There is local government engagement and support for this work that is going on, because, surely, it's a principle that should be important to all of us, that knowing that when Welsh public money, through Welsh Government, is spent, it's spent in a way that is equitable wherever people are.

First Minister, councils are being asked to do more every year, but with less. Westminster made them responsible for social care. In Cardiff Bay, new statutory duties keep on coming, and other costs are building up. Swansea Council has already set aside £28 million for equal pay claims. That's £28 million not being spent on schools, not being spent on our roads, and not being spent on social care. Similar claims have already bankrupted Birmingham City Council. These are legally binding costs, yet the formula that shares out local government funding was never designed to account for them. So, First Minister, what consideration is being given to these huge costs in the funding formula, and will you commit that no new duties will be placed on councils without the money to deliver them? Otherwise, it is local services that will be cut.

The Member reflects concerns that no doubt exist right across local government in Wales, and they are concerns that we mirror in Government too. Absolutely, nearly 20 years now of cuts—they used to call it 'austerity', but let's call it what it is—cuts by UK Government, successive Conservative and Labour Governments, have led to the situation where, yes indeed, we are asked to do more with less. What's important to me is that we as a Government work very, very closely with local government, which my Cabinet Minister for local government does day in, day out, recognising the pressures that do exist, taking into consideration always how the decisions and actions and ambitions of this Government do place responsibilities not just on the Welsh Government itself, but on our partners throughout Wales. It is very much a consideration that we bring in to the core of decisions around policy, around spending, because we recognise that, across public life in Wales, be it Welsh Government or local government, these years of cuts are taking their toll. It is by working together cleverly that we can try to work through that on behalf of the people that we represent.

Our rural services have been historically underfunded and have failed to accurately reflect the cost of providing rural services. That's why the review of the funding formula this Government is undertaking should be welcomed. But isn't it the reality that this shows the urgent need to change Wales's funding formula from Westminster to ensure fairness and justice, and that everyone in this Chamber should support this Government in that call?

The Member is entirely right. That fundamental weakness in the model makes expenditure decisions, whether for urban or rural areas, disproportionately unfair. It's certainly true that rural communities can face additional costs and challenges in providing public services. The review that's ongoing is considering population sparsity and the rural element of society alongside deprivation and broader pressures on services. What we want to do is to keep a structure in place that reflects real need, and ensure that the whole of Wales can have trust in what we're doing in terms of expenditure decisions within Government.

First Minister, I certainly agree with the comments made by colleagues across the Chamber here so far, because local authorities, councils, and the work they do is the lifeblood of our communities, from the roads that we drive on to the schools that we send our children to. The funding formula is an important aspect of the ability to deliver these services. Another aspect of funding is through council tax rises. In my constituency, Fflint Wrecsam, the local authorities of Flintshire and Wrexham have made significant council tax rises over recent years because of having to fund those services that are vital to people, day in and day out. But I wonder, in considering funding for local authorities, what you think is an acceptable council tax rise for local authorities to make. Will you be considering putting a cap on local authorities in Wales?

It's very important that local authorities are able to make their own decisions on local taxation. I know I have never met a local councillor or a leader of a council who wants to raise council tax in a way that impacts their constituents more than is absolutely necessary. We made a decision around the deal on the budget with the previous Government that absolutely reflected the need to minimise council tax increases, in making sure that we were able to negotiate an agreement that made sure that there was a minimum 4 per cent uplift in order to limit council tax increases. Those decisions are best left for local representatives. That's an important principle.

I now call on the party leaders to question the First Minister. First of all, leader of Reform UK, Helen Jenner.

Diolch, Lywydd. First Minister, following the serious incident involving an RAF Hawk aircraft on Ynys Môn last week, I'm sure you'll join me in paying tribute to the emergency services who responded so quickly, to the two air crew involved and to everybody at RAF Valley. First Minister, RAF Valley is one of the biggest employers on Ynys Môn, as you know, providing well over 1,000 jobs on the island. The humming of those jets flying overhead is the sound of freedom. In Wales, we are proud to play our part in the defence of the United Kingdom. This brings us greater national security and high-quality, high-skill jobs. I'm grateful to the brave veterans on these benches that I'm lucky to sit alongside as well. And I recognise the sacrifices made because both my brothers are currently serving in the armed forces. This weekend, you spoke at an independence rally in Aberystwyth. You've signed an agreement with separatists, and your programme for government seeks the power to hold a referendum. If you achieve your goal of ripping Wales out of the United Kingdom, what will happen to the people who work at RAF Valley, or any other military sites across Wales, for that matter? First Minister, who will defend our nation?

I am grateful to the Member for drawing attention to the response at RAF Valley to the accident last week. I immediately contacted, through my office, the station commander at Valley to wish him and his team at Valley well at what was a very anxious time, and of course to wish a full and rapid recovery to the two airmen who ejected from the aircraft. I believe in defending Wales. Wales has a role to play, of course, within the defence of the United Kingdom. We owe a huge debt of gratitude to those who serve in our armed forces. My attitude will always be to seek ways of working together internationally to strengthen the way that we can step up to the threats that we face, not least from Russia, with the aggression shown towards our European partners, Ukraine.

Reform will never be reckless when it comes to defending our nation, and we believe in a strong Wales in a strong United Kingdom. Speaking of large employers in Wales, First Minister, last week we learned that Legal & General, a firm that employs over 2,000 people here in Wales, is set to cut 1,000 jobs across their UK operations and also that Admiral, which has its headquarters here in Cardiff, our only FTSE 100 company, is cutting 500 jobs. Considering you've had more than one meeting with Andy Burnham, I'd be interested to know what representations you've made to him on behalf of large-scale employers here in Wales, because this Siambr assumes that your conversations have included more than just constitutional matters, like getting on with the day job: safeguarding Welsh jobs, lowering NHS waiting lists, improving our education standards and backing our family farms. The people of Wales will rightly question your priorities. When will you stop turning the dial on divisive constitutional politics and instead focus on the task at hand, which is what you've been elected to do by the people of Wales?

I shall share with the Member a copy of our programme for government again, which emphasises the way that my Government is dealing every day with the issues that we face on health, on education, on housing, on child poverty, on helping the Welsh family farm. That is the focus of this Government, whilst at the same time focusing on an ambition that we have for Wales. There's an obsession on the Reform benches with talking Wales down. My discussions with Andy Burnham have all been about talking Wales up and how we can seek co-operation to make sure that we grow the Welsh economy to bring real prosperity to all parts of Wales, something that Reform are clearly not interested in. 

Nobody on our benches is talking Wales down. We believe in a strong Wales in a strong United Kingdom. We have to remember as well that recently, in a poll commissioned by YesCymru, two thirds of people who responded said they did not want an independent Wales. They don't want to be ripped out of the United Kingdom. You have to bear that in mind. It was a YesCymru poll.

You failed to pass your first budget, First Minister, and I'm sure you've learned that, in a minority Government, you have to work with parties around this Chamber to have a hope of passing your financial measures and staying in government. Instead of signing pacts with dangerous separatists, instead of preaching to the converted at independence rallies, you should be making calls to the leaders and finance spokespeople in this Chamber to bring consensus.

We have made it clear that we'll vote for a budget that puts the people of Wales first: no more money going overseas; no more cash for trees in Africa. Your priorities are frankly insulting. The so-called Party of Wales would rather spend the people of Wales’s taxes in Uganda than here at home on our nursing graduates who have been left without jobs and on Welsh pupils with additional learning needs. When will you put aside your personal pet projects and put the people of Wales first?

It's interesting that the Member chooses to talk about the constitution at every possible opportunity. It's as if she is somehow obsessed with this, while this Government is getting on with the job of governing Wales. Maybe she doesn't like the fact that we're able to deal with the issues that matter to the people of Wales, day in, day out.

She talks about insulting the people of Wales. We can see under her leadership already this lurch to the right. The fact that she didn't condemn the appalling comments from the shadow Minister without portfolio—without principles, without any shame—says so much about her leadership of Reform in Wales.

Leader of Welsh Labour, Ken Skates.

Dioch, Lywydd. First Minister, there is mounting uncertainty over the future of Flying Start, amplified this week when councils across Wales were told different things about its future. Can you confirm whether today's Flying Start programme has a future under Plaid Cymru, or will your party do to it what the Tories did to Sure Start in England?

I think it's useful to be having this conversation in public here to explain, once again, that our intention is to build significantly on what has already been delivered through Flying Start. The Labour leader has often criticised us for being too ambitious in our plans for the roll-out of childcare. We don't apologise for that ambition, but it does mean building on Flying Start, which has helped many families in poverty. There are more families in poverty not being helped by Flying Start than those who are being helped by Flying Start. We say let's help them all. And there's a real danger, I think, in the Labour leader here focusing too much on a name. We want to focus on helping families the length and breadth of Wales, and that is what this Government's plans are all about.

And it's the same with ALN. We have plans in place that we have put on the table, and I again invite the Labour leader to work with us on that, because it's about building on issues that are important to families. My finance Minister has written today to all the party leaders here in the Senedd asking to come together, asking for co-operation. There is still a small window to get out through that door the £40 million on the table that Mark Drakeford suggests you should have taken. It's still an offer, and it's a genuine offer to work co-operatively with you to get that money spent.

First Minister, it's still not enough. We've heard your concerns over many weeks about public finance, which begs the question why you'd squander public money on rebranding Flying Start if the only threat is to its name.

But I'd like to turn to national security. Welsh Government Ministers have to rely on the intelligence of others, and that's because there is no significant intelligence-gathering capability here in Wales. And yet we are obviously, given the news that we've seen this week, being watched very carefully and targeted by Russian and other intelligence agencies, as well as many others who seek to break us. In the interest of national security and in the interest of standing up for the people of Wales, could I ask whether you and indeed the leaders of other groups in this Chamber would agree to receive a comprehensive briefing from intelligence chiefs in the UK defence forces over the specific scale and breadth of threats facing Wales and its people?

As the Member would expect, I do indeed receive briefings when it comes to matters that are of concern in terms of the resilience of Wales. I have spoken here on a number of occasions about the way I have approached the whole question of resilience. That means working with intelligence partners, who I have met in various fora. It means working with COBRA, where I have attended in person. It means working with the Ministry of Defence and all the relevant partners that we need to be working with to make sure that our defence and the values that are so important to us are protected from those international forces that seek to undermine us. I would hope that all of us can agree that these are matters on which there isn't a sheet of paper between us.

Leader of the Welsh Conservatives, Darren Millar.

Diolch, Lywydd. First Minister, I hope you enjoyed your visit to Aberystwyth over the weekend. How do you feel to have recruited Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov to your campaign to break up the United Kingdom? As you know, he's been gleefully speaking about the prospects of referendums on the future of the UK, especially following your meeting with Sinn Féin and the Scottish National Party two weeks ago, which I believe was all over Russian tv. Are you pleased to have Putin's Russia cheerleading on this independence mission that you've set yourself on, or do you finally realise the folly of focusing on that issue and the constitutional navel-gazing, rather than cracking on with improving our sliding educational standards, getting to grips with the crisis in our NHS and trying to fire up the Welsh economy?

I welcome Darren Millar to join me in making the case for Wales's future the next time I have the opportunity to do so. Wales's constitutional future is a matter for the people of Wales. It isn't for the Kremlin to endorse, to oppose or to exploit. The leader of the Conservative group—along with the Secretary of State for Wales, I should say, because they are on the same page, it seems—may wish to reflect on the wisdom of quoting a Kremlin propagandist in order to pursue their unionist agenda here. I have visited Kyiv with the leader of the Conservative group here in the Senedd, because we believe in the right of self-determination for the people of Ukraine. It so happens that I also believe in the right of self-determination for the people of Wales.

First Minister, before the last election to the Senedd, you told the people of Wales that the election was not going to be about independence. Yet since that election, you have done everything to make this Senedd about the issue of independence. You either clearly didn't get the memo that you wrote yourself, or you deliberately misled the people of Wales and tried to get them to vote for Plaid by seeking to dampen down your aspirations for an independent Wales.

Prior to going to those polls in May, back in March, this Senedd—the previous Senedd rather, but the Welsh Parliament—passed legislation. We passed legislation to prevent people lying during election periods. I would remind you that you and your party voted in support of that legislation, and yet still went on to say, 'It's nothing to do with independence, this election', and bark on about it ever since you've arrived back in this place.

When I looked at the scenes on the tv over the weekend, I saw YesCymru claiming that 8,000 people were in attendance at the rally in Aberystwyth—that's a figure, by the way, that I take with a large dose of Halen Môn salt; I'm not really sure it was true. But even if I were to accept that number, do you know the figures that are in my mind? The figures that are in my mind are the 709,000 on an NHS waiting list and the 1 million people in Wales who don't have an NHS dentist. When will you show the same passion and drive to get to grips with those issues as you do for this matter of independence?

I feel as if there's an attempt every week to draw a big rabbit out of a hat that the leader of Plaid Cymru believes in independence for Wales. That doesn't come as a surprise—the fact that the leader of Plaid Cymru, which has campaigned for the right of the people of Wales to decide their own future for 100 years, should give up a couple of hours on a Saturday afternoon to make that case. Because I happen to have a higher level of ambition and belief in my nation than the leader of the Conservatives, who is in cahoots with the leader of Labour and the leader of Reform.

We have in Plaid Cymru a Government that persuaded the people of Wales that we need to step up a gear. But this term in Government isn't about putting forward a referendum on independence. It's not. But is it about making the case for what Wales could be? The people of Wales responded in saying, 'You know what? No, we're not quite with you yet; there's been a massive increase in support for independence, but we're not with you yet.' I get that completely. 'But we like your belief in Wales and we believe that if you believe in Wales that much, you will do everything with the tools that you have now to improve standards on health, to raise education standards, to create jobs in every part of Wales.' That is precisely what this Government has started doing from day one, and I invite him to pay closer attention to that bread-and-butter work that we are doing in this Government.

Grass-roots music venues are vital to Wales's music sector and to developing the next generation of Welsh talent. Through Creative Wales, we provide direct capital investment to help venues become more sustainable, and work closely with the Music Venue Trust. Eligible grass-roots music venues can now also benefit from the Welsh Government's recently announced support through the non-domestic rates system too.

Diolch, Brif Weinidog. I'd like to declare an interest as co-founder of Saith Seren, an independent music venue. Many grass-roots venues are struggling. We've seen the closure of some much-loved venues across Cymru. We must do more to support this sector. As you mentioned, the 30 per cent business rates cut is a huge step in that direction. It's a great start, but there are more steps that can be taken, I believe, by the UK Government. Last week, I attended an event with Music Venue Trust, which highlighted the issue of value added tax. In my constituency, we've got some great grass-roots music venues, such as The Rockin' Chair in Wrexham and the Tivoli in Buckley. I'm sure you're familiar with both. They provide opportunities for artists to grow and to support creative and economic growth. However, VAT rates are a significant pressure on these venues. In light of this, does the First Minister agree with me that we must urge the UK Government not only to review the VAT threshold faced by this sector, but also to consider a zero-VAT rate on ticket sales?

It's good to hear that the Tivoli is still there. It's about a quarter of a century, I think, since I was there—a great venue. I welcome the Member's support to the campaign, and agree that it's vital that we look at all options to help the viability of our music venues, to encourage economic growth. We recognise the financial pressures, of course, facing venues and the live music sector; that's why we have introduced our new rates relief for this very important sector. I declare an interest as somebody who has played on many a stage myself and realises the value of these venues.

But VAT policy, of course, is a reserved matter. We recognise the concerns raised by the sector around both the VAT registration threshold and the VAT applied to ticket sales and the impact that these absolutely can have on the sustainability of grass-roots venues, but those actions will need to be taken by the UK Government. We will continue, of course, to engage with the sector, including Music Venue Trust, and ensure that the issues facing grass-roots venues in Wales genuinely are understood and represented in our discussions, also, with the UK Government.

I'm glad you brought up this question about music venues, because they are struggling. I want to talk about Arts Council Wales's core funding. Grass-roots music venues seem to get nothing from that, whereas other music genres, like opera, can receive millions of pounds. So, the same system that subsidises theatres and galleries without question tells our small venues that they're commercial operations and they must fend for themselves. We've talked about some of the clubs that are still going, but some have failed—Central Station in Wrexham, TJ's in Newport and Barfly in Cardiff. This month, Tramshed missed out on rates relief by £4,000. Just because business returned to normal after COVID, it doesn't mean they're making more money now.

Every business supports the 30 per cent business rates cut, and we support that here, but these small venues are not taking advantage of that because they're just slightly over the threshold, and we really risk an effect on young Welsh talent. So, I'd like to ask you: can you think about replacing the cliff edge with a taper and commit to parity of esteem for grass-roots music venues? Diolch.

Decisions are taken when it comes to business rates and you try to consider where the impact can be felt most and where the biggest advantages can be, and we'll always look at various ways in which we can, moving forward, alter, amend, to make sure that the finite resources that we have at our disposal as a Welsh Government are used as carefully as possible.

On the wider comments and issues raised, I agree that there are significant, broad-ranging questions that we need to address when it comes to the future of music and live music in Wales, and that's why focus is being given to a new strategy around Creative Wales now. Because we're determined to work quickly, as a new Government, to understand the issues that we need to address and put the right strategic measures in place to do what we can, again, as I say, with our finite resources, to help the music industry.

Thank you for raising this question. In Cardiff, a lot of work has been done to support the music ecosystem in the city through a music strategy that's now over seven years old.

As part of that music strategy, a music board has been established. There's been a grass-roots music venue fund to support our fantastic venues. This Friday, we have the third iteration of the Cardiff Music City Festival kicking off for the next fortnight, funded with support from the last Welsh Labour Government. That festival takes place across the city, taking in venues like Tramshed—and I'm grateful to the Member for raising that issue. To quote the venue:

'We are devastated by the announcement that Tramshed will be excluded from the permanent 30% business rates relief.'

So, can I ask the First Minister, therefore, why was that? Will he work with us to look again at that cliff edge? And can I return to the issue of the Cardiff music festival? Will he commit to funding future iterations of that festival going forward? Diolch yn fawr.

I recognise the work done by local authorities the length and breadth of Wales in supporting various music festivals. Cardiff has a particular role as our capital city, because of the plethora of music venues and so on, but we recognise the pressures that they're under. What we will do always is work with local authorities. As I say, our ability to have a direct impact through direct spending is limited, obviously, but we will look at every opportunity that we can to support the sector directly, or local government, in promoting this vital sector.

First Minister, Haverfordwest's former Masonic hall has been recently brought back into use following years of closure, and will again be a hub for live music, entertainment and creative talent, showcasing the vital role that grass-roots music venues play in supporting young artists, strengthening communities and boosting local economies. I'm sure you'll agree with me that this project has a great opportunity to strengthen Pembrokeshire's live music scene and create new opportunities for the next generation of local performers. So, First Minister, given the challenges that many towns face with vacant properties and declining town centres, what steps is the Welsh Government taking to incentivise projects like this that bring old buildings back into use, especially if they are brought back as independent and grass-roots music venues?

Venues are necessary; that's not one that I'm aware of in Haverfordwest, but I wish them well with that project. I would point very much to the work that we are doing, bringing forward legislation, which we hope to work with you on, on community ownership. There is a real opportunity to identify facilities within our communities that can become hubs for music and activity and supporting people socially. That is precisely what this Government intends to do through that particular piece of work.

Prynhawn da, Brif Weinidog. Almost across the Siambr we've seen a real support, haven't we, for live music and supporting our venues. I just really wanted to take a different kind of approach to it, which is about our youth clubs. Our youth clubs are real resources for young people to start in music. We've heard as well about the Ezra Collective, an award-winning English group—Femi Koleoso of the group put it simply, 'We met at a youth club'. Yet we've seen such cuts to our youth services. And I stand here with my tin hat on, because I recognise the role that my party played in the coalition in cutting services, so I'm taking full responsibility for that. But here in Wales, isn't it right, First Minister, that we need to find a way of supporting our youth clubs and making sure that, through that, our young people get that amazing opportunity to learn music and to be able to play it. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

I agree. As somebody who attended Urdd youth clubs—aelwydydd—in the past, I absolutely know the benefit that comes from having facilities that offer opportunities to play an instrument or maybe learn to play table tennis very, very badly—to create those structures for young people. It's something I believe in and, as a Government, working with local authorities and other partners, this is something we want to see developed. The direct intervention of Government on youth clubs perhaps isn't something that we can do, but, absolutely, where we can facilitate those measures to promote youth clubs, we will look for opportunities to do so.

Afan Ogwr Rhondda is an important example, I think, of where, historically, Wales’s natural resources were extracted to power the industrial revolution, with little lasting benefit to the community. Through our national energy strategy and our proposals for a future public energy company, we want to attract investment, support local ownership, create skilled jobs and keep more of the economic value in our communities. That's the lesson of the past.

Diolch, Brif Weinidog. A key test of this strategy, as you've just outlined, for my constituents is whether the energy transition brings not just more generation, but more good jobs, innovation and economic value to those communities like Afan Ogwr Rhondda. Neath Port Talbot is leading the south-west Wales bid to the UK local innovation partnerships fund, which could be an important addition to those aims. The region was originally told that up to £20 million would be available, but I've now been informed by partners involved that this may have been reduced to £15 million—so by a quarter—while Hull and East Yorkshire and Tees Valley have up to £30 million available jointly. It seems to me the UK Government never seems to miss an opportunity to short-change Wales. Can you confirm whether the Welsh Government has been informed of this change, and what representations will you make to protect south-west Wales's share?

I certainly am aware of the concerns regarding the level of funding available through the local innovation partnerships fund, and officials are already engaging with partners to try to understand the position and any implications for that particular region. We will continue to make the case strongly with the UK Government that Welsh regions should receive a fair share of innovation funding to support high-quality jobs, business growth and energy transition. We believe as a Government in empowering Wales and in empowering the regions of Wales.

The real measure of success isn't simply how much energy we generate with various schemes, but rather how many skilled jobs we create, how many supply chain opportunities are created, and the long-term economic benefits that we create for communities like Afan Ogwr Rhondda. South-west Wales has exceptional strengths in floating offshore wind, industrial decarbonisation, clean energy innovation, and it is vital that investment now reflects and, indeed, releases that potential for future generations.

This month, the Cabinet Minister said lower bills would come eventually. I want the claim put into pounds and pence for Afan Ogwr Rhondda. The previous Labour Government approved £430,000 for Community Energy Wales and YnNi Teg in 2025-26. CEW is co-led by your party's former leader, Leanne Wood. Ministerial advice calls it sponsorship to act as a voice for the sector and build its capacity.

Audit Wales told me it had done no audit work referring to CEW since 2022—fair enough; that's the Government's job. Yet, in December last year, officials told me that, beyond a foundational economy evaluation, there were no further evaluation reports. So, will the First Minister publish what these organisations have achieved against their grant targets and this year's funding, and tell my constituents how many households will pay less under his strategy, by how much a year, and from when? Diolch.

I commend the work done by various community energy groups who want to make sure that we are able to increase generation, with genuine local benefits the length and breadth of Wales. I also do welcome the conversion of the Member, as somebody who sits in a party that is often linked with climate change denial, in that his Facebook page now does call for a greener Wales. I welcome his conversion to climate activism.

We want more construction material kept in use rather than valuable resources being lost. Wales prioritises recycled and secondary aggregates through planning policy, pushing up the amount of local authority rubble and aggregates that is recycled, and working with the industry too. We are also reviewing how planning and public procurement can create consistent demand for quality-assured recycled materials while protecting safety, performance and of course value for money.

Thank you, First Minister. Wales does need a secure long-term supply of aggregates if we are to deliver the homes, schools, and transport infrastructure our communities need. The Welsh Government has long said that the use of secondary and recycled materials should be maximised where practicable, and high-quality washed recycled aggregates allow us to do exactly that, turning construction and demolition waste into material that meets the same standards as quarried stone and sand, reducing pressure on primary extraction and on marine dredged sand, and cutting carbon all along the way, which is good.

There appears, however, to be a disconnect between Wales's circular economy ambitions and public sector procurement in practice at the moment. We have seen local authority works taking place directly outside a recycling plant in Cwmgwili, where virgin aggregate was sourced from a quarry 20 miles away, rather than using the actual aggregate that was at that plant, which seems ridiculous. We now need action, not words. So, First Minister, what further steps will Welsh Government take through procurement, planning and its own capital programmes to increase the use of washed recycled aggregates in construction projects in Wales?

I can't comment on that particular example that was given, of course, but I reiterate that, as a matter of principle, this is something that we should all seek to do. Recycling and upcycling, if you like, aggregates is something that is important to us. The Member recognises that we are looking at ways through procurement and planning to make a difference. It has been suggested that perhaps you set targets for the use of such aggregates, and I understand those sentiments too. In an area like this, there's a risk that, in setting numerical targets, you run up against practical issues, not least those associated with safety, which has to be paramount, and other practical barriers. As I say, this is something that we want to make gains on, and we will look at using those tools at our disposal to make sure—working with industry, as he recognises—that we're able to do that. 

It's an excellent question, Carmelo. First Minister, the latest dedicated national data on construction and demolition waste is from 2019. It estimates that the sector generated 3.43 million tonnes of waste, of which 45 per cent was mixed waste, 38 per cent was soil, and 213,000 tonnes were sent to landfill. Without up-to-date information on the quantity, type and destination of this waste, how can you as First Minister, or your Government, credibly increase the use of high-quality washed recycled aggregates in construction projects across Wales, and measure whether your actions are succeeding? So, when will you be doing the next data collection on this? Thank you. 

There is a measurement, and 'Minerals Technical Advice Note (Wales) 1: Aggregates' remains the detailed national minerals guidance. It specifies that

'Primary aggregates development should not be permitted where...the need could be met at lower environmental cost by the use of secondary or recycled material.'

So, the policy says that we should be moving in this direction. That was put in place in 2004 with a broad objective to increase secondary and recycled sources to at least 25 per cent of supply within five years. We're still hovering around the 25 per cent to 30 per cent mark; I think it's around 28 per cent now. We think that should be higher, and using those—. Again, the Member recognises that we do have tools at our disposal, that we are using them around planning. We need to see how we can make those more effective, because those targets of 22 years ago have been met, but actually we need to find ways of going further.

The Member knows my view that the current devolution settlement is unfair and unsustainable. During my initial discussions with the Prime Minister in July, I pressed the case for further devolution as a means of improving outcomes for the people of Wales. I'll be doing so again at the National Economic Council next month. I also emphasise that any further devolution must respect the Senedd, not bypass it. And the Cabinet Minister for Finance is also engaging with the UK Treasury in seeking a review of the fiscal framework, Barnett reform and a fair deal from the UK Government's budget, which is in all our interests.

Diolch. Although conversations with UK Prime Minister Andy Burnham have so far been positive in terms of devolution, it's clear that we need to reiterate to Westminster that we are a country and not a county. Devolution to the devolved nations is clearly not the same as devolution to the English regions. As Chair of the Constitution, Justice and External Affairs Committee, I wrote last week to Andy Burnham to invite him to give evidence to our committee to explain his priorities for devolution in Cymru.

The Welsh Government has been clear that we need parity of powers with Scotland as a basic, in order to do the day job—something that others in this Chamber seem to struggle to understand. We need more borrowing powers in order to invest in services and infrastructure here; the devolution of policing and justice in order to align policy in order to deliver better outcomes; and basic fairness with powers over rail and the Crown Estate. We will no longer tolerate a third-rate devolution settlement. So, can the First Minister outline what discussions he's having with the UK Government to make that clear?

I agree very much, obviously, that devolution to Wales as a nation is not the same as devolution within England, and our starting point is that Wales should have the powers and resources needed to deliver for the people of Wales, and absolutely that includes parity with Scotland as a minimum, where doing so would improve outcomes for citizens and strengthen democratic accountability.

Plaid Cymru is a party that has always supported and promoted the notion of empowering the communities of Wales. That's our call now, but we have to have an empowered Senedd, an empowered Welsh Government, in order to deliver what is right for communities the length and breadth of Wales. We've made that case consistently to UK Government, pressing for progress in areas including justice and policing, rail infrastructure, the Crown Estate and fiscal powers, and we will continue to engage constructively with UK Government, because this is about acting in the best interests of the people of Wales. It is about health, it is about education, it is about job creation and it is about fighting poverty.

We are here, being able to fight for the people of Wales, because a decision was made to devolve. We are here, able to create laws for the people of Wales, because a decision was then made to enhance that devolution. I still think it's an ongoing process, looking for ways that we can better support the people that we are here to represent.

Question 7 [OQ64608] is withdrawn. Question 8, Niamh Salkeld.

Tackling child poverty and securing the best future for every child in Wales is at the heart of our programme for government. We are creating a new strategy to tackle child poverty. We're setting clear targets and milestones to drive ambitious, deliverable change. We're also introducing a new ambitious childcare offer to support families with the cost of living and are developing the Cynnal child payment pilot as part of a suite of measures.

Diolch, Brif Weinidog. In Blaenau Gwent, 48.6 per cent of children live in income deprivation. That's the highest rate of any local authority in Wales, and it's just so heartbreaking and unacceptable that in twenty-first century Wales so many of our children are growing up without the opportunities that every child deserves. We know that growing up in poverty can have a lasting impact on a child's health, their education and opportunities, shaping their life chances well into adulthood. 

That's why I really do welcome the ambition of this Plaid Cymru Government to make child poverty a defining mission. It's a moral imperative, because every child deserves the same opportunities in life regardless of where they're born. So, as this Government takes a much needed and ambitious new approach, how will you make sure that this ambition translates into real change for children and families in Blaenau Gwent Caerffili Rhymni?

Yes, I note those two words, and I echo them: moral imperative. That's what we're here to do. I think that's reflected in the pace with which we've tried to move on these issues in the first 100 days of this Government, making sure that we've prioritised rolling out quickly the expansion of free school meals and getting money into the system, so that we actually see the delivery of greater childcare, helping thousands of families. We have to show, in all our actions, that this is at the core of everything that we do; we believe we're doing so. We want to be held to account for that, and we're doing this for communities like the Member's.

I'm pleased that this question has been asked today. Last week, I, alongside a number of Senedd Members, met veterans who were on the Sir Galahad and their families, and families of soldiers who lost their lives on that most awful day in Welsh history. We remember all those who lost their lives, those who were injured and those who still mourn. I absolutely recognise the strength of feeling even now, and the frustration at not being able to access related records, and I, along with the Deputy First Minister, have written to the Secretary of State for Defence to make the case for their urgent release.

Thank you for your answer, First Minister. I would like to follow that keenly. As a veteran myself, we need to know when we deploy that our people and our Government have our backs.

Over the past few months, many veterans have been stating to me that the messaging coming out from the Governments at both ends of the M4 is very confusing. Both seem to state that they care, but when put under the microscope, a different tale begins to emerge. Over recent weeks in this Chamber, we've seen you calling Sinn Féin your sister party—the political arm of the IRA who were responsible for 24 soldiers' deaths linked to Welsh regiments, including the Welsh Guards, and numerous casualties in Northern Ireland. Next, we see the ethical framework that might risk vital equipment getting into the hands of those fighting on our behalf.

Numerous cases are being reported to MSs across this Chamber, and I have a couple, on the ongoing assistance for veterans who, despite councils signing up to the armed forces covenant, are being left wanting: a veteran who has had to sleep with their own mother, in the same bed, for eight years, for lack of getting a house; a recovering alcoholic placed above a pub; homeless veterans having to prove that they've rough-slept for three to four days before assistance will even begin. Does the First Minister agree with me that this is simply not good enough, and a betrayal of those who have fought for our safety?

Llywydd, I did say that I was pleased that the Member opted to raise this issue of the Sir Galahad here in the Senedd today. I—and I imagine probably a number of others—regret that the Member has opted to use that as a platform to make a series of party political points.

I am very proud of the work done by elected colleagues of mine, alongside elected colleagues from other parties, to protect and seek to deepen our commitment under the armed forces covenant, which is important to us, as it is to Members across political party lines here. I, again, refer to the stand that was made jointly by Members across political parties in support of the Sir Galahad families last week. We will support you.

The current devolution settlement is outdated, constrains our economic potential and hinders our ability to deliver the best public services to people in Wales. Our immediate constitutional priorities are the devolution of policing and justice, the Crown Estate and rail infrastructure, alongside fair funding and greater fiscal flexibility. As a matter of principle, there is certainly no reason why powers that have been devolved to Scotland shouldn't also be devolved to Wales.

Diolch. The latest YouGov polling, conducted between 7 and 13 September this year, found that just 20 per cent of people in Wales support Welsh independence—the lowest recorded level since 2023. Meanwhile, 72 per cent of people in Wales reported dissatisfaction with the NHS, 57 per cent of Welsh voters placed the economy among their three most important issues, and, furthermore, 20 per cent of pupils leave primary school functionally illiterate, whilst Wales remains at bottom of the UK Programme for International Student Assessment rankings. First Minister, it has been pointed out by our colleague here, Helen Jenner. It has been pointed out by many other Members. We represent those very people who put us here in this Senedd. With no parliamentary majority for it here in the Senedd—and I’d defy you to prove me otherwise—why is constitutional change taking priority for you, above fixing our NHS, fixing our economy and fixing our schools? It's a downright disgrace.

I congratulate the Member for being drawn out of the lot to ask a question to the First Minister again. I don't know why she chooses not to ask a question about health, to not ask a question about education, to not ask a question about strengthening the Welsh economy, supporting the family farm, bringing children out of poverty. I think those are the really important issues that are important to the people of Wales, and I believe that empowering Wales to have more tools at our disposal to deal with education, health, job creation and farming is a good thing. The Member is here because we have devolution. She is able to make the case for her constituents because we have devolution. And, as I said earlier, she is able to put forward legislation because we have enhanced devolution. 

There is a reality here that we are seeing an obsession with wanting to stop Wales being empowered. The Member has to reflect upon what that says about her. Because I will always want Wales to have the best possible crack at the whip, and that means making sure that we have the tools to do the job for the people of Wales. I'll use the word again: there's an obsession with making damn sure that Wales doesn't get any more ability to get to grips with those issues that really matter to the people of Wales.  

Our ambition is for everyone in Wales to have access to good-quality affordable housing in the right area for them. The UK Government decides how many people seeking asylum are accommodated in Wales. We work with local authorities and third sector partners to provide fair support and help services plan effectively. The Welsh Government's approach promotes safer communities, focusing on integration, access to support and, all importantly, community cohesion.

Thank you, First Minister. The Home Office has written to me confirming that around 70 homes are currently being used for asylum seekers in north-east Wales. That's up 25 per cent on 2025-26. Now, 283 people are housed in this area—that's 43 more than the same time last year. And now the Home Office is looking to move more in. Opposition in villages and towns across north-east Wales is strong, and there is no surprise in that when you consider that 650 local people are still being housed in hotels and bed and breakfasts. I was shocked when a county council in Clwyd explained to me that, often, asylum seekers are moved in without prior notification to the local authority—they're finding out after the fact. First Minister, do you agree with me that local authorities should be consulted before asylum seekers are moved in, and that locals should always be prioritised for housing?

I don't hesitate in saying that of course I recognise where there are genuine concerns in communities. My colleagues and I have spoken widely about the need for the Home Office to have dispersal processes in place that reflect the needs and pressures of communities, and the needs of people who are within the asylum system. But those are matters for the Home Office. I will deal with these issues always in a way that tries to calm the discussion, tries to deal with facts, recognising genuine concerns. But, ultimately, our powers aren't around how many people come to Wales. Ours are about recognising what our values are as a nation. When people do come here, we want to make sure that they are able—for everybody in society in Wales—to integrate properly.

Thank you, First Minister.

We move on now to item 3, the business statement and announcement. I call on the Trefnydd, Heledd Fychan.

Thank you, Llywydd. Two oral statements have been withdrawn from today's agenda, namely the national commission for Wales statement and the public and preventative health statement. Draft Plenary business for the next three weeks is shown on the business statement, which is available to all Members electronically.

Trefnydd, I'd be grateful if I could have a statement from the health Minister. A few days after the Senedd election, Audit Wales reported that the Aneurin Bevan health board had awarded £10 million in GP contracts, and that they felt that due diligence wasn't done. I'd be grateful for a statement that could tell us that this is a one-off incident and that this isn't something that is going on throughout Wales, as well as how this could be avoided in future, because that £10 million is a lot of money for a health board to lose.

I thank the Member for raising this issue. I don't know if you have written to the Cabinet Minister for Health and Care on this particular issue. Clearly, the Minister will take questions later this afternoon in terms of our framework, but there's also of course an opportunity to raise such concerns. What the Minister has been unambiguous about is that we are holding health boards to account, that they need to be accountable for expenditure, and that is work that I know is at the heart of everything that he and his team of health Ministers are proceeding with.

Trefnydd, I'd like to request a statement from the Welsh Government regarding the impact of rising energy and fuel costs on Welsh households and businesses. According to RAC Fuel Watch, the average price of diesel has now reached around £2 per litre, and the average price of petrol is around £1.74 per litre. In rural constituencies like Ceredigion Penfro, the increase in fuel prices has a particularly big knock-on effect, as many people have little choice but to rely on their vehicles to access work, healthcare and essential services. These increases are placing significant pressure on families and businesses at a time when many are already struggling with the rising cost of living, and it also has serious consequences for businesses, hauliers and farmers, by squeezing what are already very tight margins.

I appreciate that the Welsh Government is not responsible for fuel duty, but it does have some responsibility around energy policy. So, Trefnydd, given the impact of rising fuel and energy costs on Welsh households and businesses, I'd be grateful if we could have a statement from the Welsh Government outlining what representations have so far been made to the UK Government ahead of the autumn budget regarding fuel duty and energy costs, and what support is available in Wales to help those who are struggling as a result of these increases.

Thank you. The Member will be aware of our commitment as a Government to be a Government for all of Wales, and that we do recognise the genuine challenges of this increase in prices—because of international affairs, mainly—and the pressure that's putting on residents, and it's a genuine pressure. Evidently, as the Member has mentioned, a number of these things are not within our responsibilities, but those discussions are happening. We as a Government are always looking in terms of the provision and the support that we can provide for those who genuinely are in difficulties because of these issues. Support is still available through the UK Government in terms of off-grid, and those are live and continuing discussions. But, certainly, I would agree with the Member; we do recognise that there are problems in terms of this that affect some communities specifically disproportionately, and they are live discussions.

Last week, I met with residents in Gwaelod-y-garth impacted by flooding caused by nearby quarry blasting, as well as the quarry operator and other elected representatives. Residents are living in fear that there's this huge body of water sitting above their village, and the quarry is about to restart blasting imminently, before the Health and Safety Executive investigation is even complete. Residents are traumatised by the events that happened this summer and are scared to hear another blast happening above their village. So, can I please ask the Cabinet Minister for Rural Resilience and Sustainability to make representations to the UK Government and Cardiff Council about steps they can take to ensure the safety of quarries and quarry blasting in and around Cardiff, particularly given investigations aren't complete? And please could the Government provide a statement on what it's doing to ensure the safety of those living near quarries, to prevent this from ever happening again? Diolch.

May I thank the Member for the work that she has done in supporting residents, and the fact that you have been unambiguous in your support for those residents? For the record, I would also say that I have raised concerns because of campaigning that I did as a local Member in relation to the impact that quarries can have on communities. I know that the discussions between you and the Minister are live discussions and that you are communicating regularly. I will certainly ask him to ensure that you are given that update, because it's important that we continue to make the case on behalf of the residents of Gwaelod-y-garth and other communities who will be concerned about this.

I'd like to call for a statement from the Welsh Government on the Global Centre of Rail Excellence, please. Around £70 million of public money has reportedly already gone into the GCRE, including £50 million from the Welsh Government, yet the main rail facility has still not been built. Private investment has not materialised as anticipated, and the future of the project is now under review. I understand the Public Accounts and Public Administration Committee is now asking the Permanent Secretary how that investment has been used and what further funding may be required, and about the Welsh Government's commitment to support the company's liabilities until September 2027. As shadow Minister for Government efficiency, I believe taxpayers deserve answers too. Will the Government therefore make a statement setting out exactly what public money has been spent and what it has delivered; what financial controls, reviews and value for money assessments were undertaken; what timescales and funding assumptions changed; and what further exposure taxpayers may face? Before another penny is committed, the Senedd deserves a clear account of the money already spent and the decisions behind it.

I thank the Member for raising this important issue. Evidently, you are not the first Member to raise this issue. We've heard questions to the First Minister specifically, and a commitment by the First Minister to learn lessons. Evidently, we were not in power when the decisions were made, but I do hope that that commitment from the First Minister was very clear to everyone that we want to ensure value for money, ensure value in terms of the site, and that that is a full consideration for this Government in terms of proceeding.

I'd like to request two statements. The first one is in relation to Admiral. I've been inundated on this issue. A group of MPs, my colleague Huw and I met with the employer on Friday. Will the Cabinet Minister for Enterprise, Connectivity and Energy make an urgent statement to the Senedd on what action the Welsh Government is taking to protect jobs and ensure major financial service employers, such as Admiral and Legal & General, retain their headquarters, investment and skilled employment in Wales?

I'm happy to move to the next one—I'm not quite sure what the sequencing is. The next one is in relation to tackling disinformation, AI, deepfakes and social media scams. Over the weekend, some of you might have received an Instagram request from an account that looked just like me. It had my name, it had my image, and it had a real accurate description of what it is that I do. People had every reason to believe that this account was me. I was being sent all kinds of messages in relation to it. It invited them to join a WhatsApp group for 'finance enthusiasts' to discuss cryptocurrency and stocks—

Shav—

For the record, it had nothing to do with me. Can I ask whether or not we can have a statement from the Welsh Government in terms of what they're doing in terms of working with the police, the UK Government and social media companies to make sure that our trust—

Trefnydd.

Diolch. First of all, on that second point, I'm so sorry that happened to you. I know it can be deeply distressing when such instances happen. I know that we are all at risk, and that is a risk acknowledged by the Welsh Government. Obviously, a lot of these matters are not devolved, but these are representations that we do make, because it impacts our democracy, it impacts the people that we represent, day in, day out, who are targeted in such a way. It's not just public figures. So, this is something we do take seriously. I would hope the UK Government does far more to protect citizens as well as those elected democratically. I saw recently comments from people saying that they would not be standing for council again because of such risks, so there is a risk to our democracy as well as a very real personal impact.

On your first point, I'm sure that every Member here shares your concerns in relation to Admiral and Legal & General. The Cabinet Minister for Enterprise, Connectivity and Energy will be meeting with Admiral this Thursday to discuss their plans and to understand the rationale better. This is a live situation, and certainly he will update the Senedd as we get a better understanding of the implications of this for Wales too. Officials and the Government will be working with both companies to see how we can safeguard jobs here in Wales.

Could I request a statement from the Cabinet Minister for Social Justice and Equality on the disappointing news that the post office on Bangor high street will close temporarily in January next year? Although the Post Office only anticipates a period of six months of disruption before an alternative service is established, I am concerned that the temporary closure will have a significant negative impact on the residents of Bangor and the surrounding areas who depend on the branch to access essential services. I would like a statement from the Minister that elaborates on the discussions that the Welsh Government is holding with the UK Government regarding the protection of the network of Post Office branches in Wales and the actions that are being taken to ensure that the key services of the Post Office remain accessible to all. 

Thank you very much to the Member for raising this issue. I, and many Members here, I'm sure, have been involved in campaigns for the preservation of post offices in our own constituencies because of the crucial role that they play. Thinking of Bangor high street, of course, you do understand how important that service is. The Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Social Justice and Equality did meet with the Post Office today. Clearly, this is not a devolved service, but, because of the impact that it does have on people in our communities, these are ongoing discussions and, certainly, if any Member has similar concerns on Post Office services, as we do have regular meetings through officials, or through the Deputy First Minister, we're always willing to raise these issues.

Trefnydd, I would like to request a statement on the shameful neglect of some of Wales's most treasured historic sites, including our Roman remains in Caerwent, known to the Romans as Venta Silurum. These remains are hugely impressive, and the Roman city there is one of the most significant structures in Wales and Europe, dating back nearly 2,000 years. That makes their condition even more disgraceful, that what should be a source of national pride is now being swallowed by weeds—nearly 2,000 years of history left to deteriorate under successive Governments' watches here. As you know, Trefnydd, these sites are vital to our history, education and tourism in Monmouthshire and across Wales. Bizarrely, I asked for an urgent meeting with Cadw about their condition, and was told to ask you first for permission for a meeting. I'm not sure if that's normal. Trefnydd, can I request a statement from you on the upkeep of historic sites in Wales? And can I cheekily use this opportunity to invite you there yourself to see the disgraceful condition that they're in? Diolch.

I thank the Member for raising this issue. Obviously, as the Minister with responsibility, I take it very seriously. That's why we're looking at the culture and sport strategy anew, which looks at how our historic sites are being treated, because there has been underinvestment and an underappreciation of the history of Wales, and that is something that we do recognise as a Government. There are formal processes that officials have to go through. I have said, of course, to Cadw officials to meet Members with any concerns, and, certainly, when I am in the area, I would be very willing to visit. It's also very important, and I would encourage any Member here—. The call for evidence for the new culture and sport strategy is open until 18 December. I want to hear from you about the things that are important to you and to those you represent. So, please engage in that process, because we need to tackle this issue.

Can I call for two statements today, please, Trefnydd? The first is from the Cabinet Minister for Health and Care in relation to Martha's law. As you will know, following the tragic death of Martha Mills, a 13-year-old in England who died of sepsis in 2021, the English NHS is benefiting from the roll-out of Martha's law in emergency departments, in maternity settings, in all in-patient settings. We have a similar approach in Wales, but people are less familiar with it, because it isn't called Martha's law or Martha's rule. And I wonder to what extent the Welsh Government could look at just adopting it lock, stock and barrel to make sure that patients here have the benefit of being able to call for that immediate clinical review of their patients, if they're concerned about patient safety.

Secondly, can I call on the Cabinet Minister for Enterprise, Connectivity and Energy on the rising costs of fuel, particularly in relation to home-to-school transport operators, many of whom now are really struggling to make ends meet with the viability of some of the routes that they are supporting, getting kids to and from school? Conwy, Denbighshire and Flintshire councils have all been approached for support by home-to-school operators in the constituency that I represent, but, unfortunately, they do need that national direction from either the Welsh Government or the UK Government in order that they can get the resources that they need to make sure that these routes are still viable.

I thank the Member for raising those two hugely important issues. Clearly, there was a great deal of publicity around Martha's rule recently, and, certainly, if we look at what we're trying to deliver across the health service in terms of Call for Concern, this tries to address similar issues. I know that the Cabinet Minister for Health and Care would be more than happy to discuss this further with you directly. I'm sure that we are united in terms of those calls. It's a matter of taking action, and I know that there are different names for these practices in other nations—for example, it's Ryan's rule in Australia. So, it's important that we do operate according to best practice internationally in this regard.

In terms of the second point, the home-to-school transport issue, I think we would all recognise across this Chamber that this is a national challenge. I know that the Deputy Minister for Transport has been meeting with campaigners and has been acting in this area. The solutions are not easy. There are some things that are extremely challenging, but we do recognise that there are barriers at the moment that are creating difficulties in terms of school transport. I know that the Deputy Minister will continue to work on this. I would encourage any Member who has any direct concerns in terms of their own constituents to write to the Deputy Minister. 

Trefnydd, a recent Care Inspectorate Wales national thematic review found that high turnover among children's social workers can disrupt children's journeys through the care system and cause delays, while practitioners also raised concerns about high case loads. Could the Trefnydd therefore arrange for the Deputy Minister for Social Care, Mental Health and Women's Health to make a statement on workforce stability in children's services, including social worker turnover, case loads and what action is being taken to improve continuity for vulnerable children and families, please?

This is an important issue, and a lot of detailed work was done through cross-party scrutiny during the last Senedd that showed that much more support was needed and that these challenges must be tackled. I'd ask the Member to write to the Cabinet Minister if he wants a further conversation about these issues. Of course, these are scrutiny issues for committees as well to ensure that action is taken on previous recommendations, because I know that many re-elected Members in the Chamber were part of that work and have an interest in these issues. We heard directly from those who had been impacted, in terms of young people and the workforce, and this is something that we have to tackle, but the solutions are not easy either.

Good afternoon, Trefnydd. I want to continue on that issue, please. 

I'd like to request a statement on the well-being outcomes for care leavers in Wales. Last month, the UK Department of Education published 'You really are on your own', a study of the early deaths of young people who were in care, and its findings are deeply concerning. In 2025 alone, 112 care leavers aged 18 to 24 died in England, an estimated death rate around three to four times that of their peers in the general population. One in five of those deaths occurred at age 18, right when support so often fails and falls away. The report must serve as a warning for us here in Wales. Care-experienced young people have consistently raised here many of the issues around isolation, cliff edges in support, and independence being treated as more important than well-being. So, may I ask, please, Trefnydd, what can we do here in Wales to make sure we've got the data on young people and make sure we've got the services in place to support them? Diolch yn fawr iawn.

I thank the Member for raising this issue. Clearly, the report is horrific, and the point that you make, that we don't have that data here in Wales, is something that officials are currently looking at, and the Cabinet Minister has asked us to look at how we gather this data so that we can understand what the situation is in Wales. Also, in looking at the report, he is considering what lessons we can learn from those recommendations.

We had restarted the Wales Leaving Care Forum, which does exceptionally important work, so this work will continue, but I do hope that I have provided the assurances that you were seeking that we are looking to learn lessons and that we are looking to get that relevant data, because it's important that that is available to us here in Wales too.

Business Manager, in July, Sam Rowlands expressed concern to you that protocols were being developed in local government that would restrict the freedom of elected members to communicate directly with Members of this Parliament. In recent weeks, there's been further evidence that councils are still pursuing this agenda. This is clearly unacceptable in any democracy. My apologies—if there's a statement that's already been made on this, I couldn't find it. But, otherwise, I'm requesting a statement from the Welsh Government on this matter.

I'd ask the Member to provide any evidence, because, evidently, there was a commitment for us to take action, and questions were asked immediately about that. My response was unambiguous at that time in terms of that that's not our expectation in terms of action, but, evidently, without us having that information, it can't be something we can take action on. And I would encourage any Member to raise any concerns with local authorities. It's very important that local authorities do collaborate with us as elected Members. That's our commitment as a Government. So, I would ask you to provide that information, specifically to Siân Gwenllian as the Cabinet Minister for local government.

Business Minister, can I please request a statement from the Cabinet Minister for Health and Care about the potential withdrawal of funding for specialist cerebral palsy therapy services within the Aneurin Bevan health board? Families across my constituency are facing deep uncertainty and concern as the health board reviews its service level agreement with Cerebral Palsy Cymru. While other health boards across Wales, including Cwm Taf Morgannwg, Swansea Bay and Hywel Dda, continue to secure access to this highly specialist intervention, children in my constituency risk being left behind. Local NHS therapy teams perform vital work, but they lack the specific advanced training, experience and clinical capacity required to replicate the specialised care provided by Cerebral Palsy Cymru. Withdrawing this contract creates an unacceptable postcode lottery, and also threatens the early intervention programmes that have provided crucial early years support to 79 babies in the Aneurin Bevan area at zero cost to the NHS or Welsh Government, a move that directly contradicts this Government's own preventative health agenda. Decisions like this actively undermine early intervention, harm long-term development outcomes, and place an unfair burden on families. So, will the Cabinet Secretary make an urgent statement outlining how the Welsh Government will intervene to protect these vital services, eliminate a postcode lottery, and commit to a sustainable national pathway for children with cerebral palsy? Thank you.

Thank you for raising that issue. The Cabinet Minister for Health and Care and the Deputy Minister for Public and Preventative Health have raised the issue that you have raised. If you haven't written to them yet, I would ask you to do so. You will also be aware that these are issues for the health board in terms of these kinds of decisions, and, in terms of our commitment to the preventative agenda, we are looking to ensure that there is equal access to services across Wales. But these are individual decisions for health boards, and that is why I would urge you to raise these issues, so that it's part of our consideration in looking at the preventative services available and how we secure equal access, wherever you live in Wales, to those services.

Finally, Trefnydd, David Hughes.

Thank you. Business Manager, can I ask for a statement from the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning on how local government's funding supports the third sector and charitable organisations? The Welsh Local Government Association estimates budget pressures of £560 million for 2026-27, but this year local government's settlement only increases councils' core funding by £292 million. When budgets are tight, grants and contracts with local charities and voluntary groups are often among the first to be cut. Yet these organisations provide early support to vulnerable people, and can help ease the demand on statutory services. So, can we have a statement on how the Government is working with councils to protect funding for the third sector, and whether assessments have been made of the impact of funding pressures on voluntary organisations? And can I say that I've got to declare an interest because I've got family working in both sectors?

Thank you.

I thank the Member for raising these issues. I do hope that you will have heard earlier today the response of the First Minister in terms of concerns raised about the financial settlement for local government, in terms of the important collaboration with this Government, and the recognition also that, as an opposition party, we did prioritise ensuring a better settlement for local authorities across Wales, and that that was a part of this year's budget that a number of Members of the Senedd voted against. So, if we want to safeguard public services, it is important that we do collaborate. That's the kind of attitude that we had as an opposition party, and as a Government, we're showing that commitment to collaborate with local government.

We also recognise, of course, the importance of the third sector. The third sector does undertake extremely important work, and in the wake of cuts that we've seen over a period of 15 years and more, they have become services that have had to take a great burden off other services that should be provided through the public purse. So, certainly, this is something that we commit to working on with the third sector on, and collaborating with local government, and I'd ask everybody here to consider how we can ensure that the funding is available, and fair funding for Wales as well from Westminster for us to be able to safeguard the third sector and local government.

Thank you, Trefnydd.

We'll move now to item 4: a statement by the Cabinet Minister for Health and Care, a review of the escalation and intervention framework. I call on the Cabinet Minister, Mabon ap Gwynfor.

Thank you very much, Llywydd. I'm pleased to provide an update on the commitment in our first 100-day plan to commission a review of the effectiveness of the NHS Wales escalation and intervention framework.

The review was commissioned to ensure that our arrangements for accountability, oversight, support and intervention remain fit for purpose in a healthcare environment that is increasingly complex. Discussions with NHS organisations in recent months have reinforced the need for a framework that is clearer, more consistent, and more focused on securing sustainable improvement.

The review found that escalation and intervention arrangements provided an important mechanism for identifying concerns, strengthening oversight, and deploying targeted support where necessary. However, the review also found opportunities to strengthen the connection between routine accountability processes and formal intervention arrangements. In particular, there was a desire to move away from a system that is perceived primarily through the lens of escalation levels to a new system, a system that places greater emphasis on continuous assessment and early intervention, helping organisations to improve and, ultimately, ensures better outcomes for patients.

Today, we publish a new accountability and support framework, which provides a single, coherent approach to deal with accountability, assurance, support and intervention across NHS Wales. It establishes a more transparent and structured framework that will help the Welsh Government and NHS organisations to assess how they are performing, identify emerging risks, and agree the responses required to support improvement. It also clarifies better the relationship between accountability meetings, routine performance oversight, improvement support and intervention activity.

At its heart, the framework establishes a stronger focus on organisational maturity, capability and sustainable improvement. The framework is structured around the core pillars and domain of leadership and organisational effectiveness, quality, delivery and performance, workforce, and finance and planning. This reflects the reality that organisational challenges rarely exist in isolation and often require a system-wide understanding of the factors influencing performance and outcomes.

The framework also supports a more proactive approach to intervention. Rather than waiting for issues to become deeply embedded, it provides enhanced mechanisms for earlier identification of risk and earlier deployment of support. The intention is that organisations are helped to address challenges before they become more significant and before formal escalation becomes necessary. This is particularly important given the pressures facing NHS Wales, including increasing demand, workforce challenges, financial constraints and the need to continue improving quality and patient outcomes.

This preventative approach is consistent with the wider direction of Government and health policy, which places strong emphasis on earlier action, reducing avoidable harm and supporting long-term sustainability. In practical terms, this means moving from late action when performance has already deteriorated to earlier identification of risk and targeted support before concerns become entrenched. The framework works within the current legislative framework and takes us as far as we can within it, using the powers and levers available to strengthen accountability, deploy support earlier and secure improvement for patients and communities.

A key principle underpinning the framework is that intervention and support should always be purposeful, proportionate and time bound. Enhanced monitoring, oversight and support arrangements should not exist for their own sake. Instead, they should support organisations to deliver measurable improvements, strengthen leadership capability, improve governance arrangements and address the underlying causes of poor performance.

Equally, organisations receiving support should be able to demonstrate progress within an agreed time frame, with decisions about escalation, continuation of support or de-escalation informed by clear evidence and objective assessment. Recent discussions regarding de-escalation arrangements have reinforced the importance of ensuring that improvement is sustained and that appropriate surveillance arrangements remain in place following any reduction in oversight.

Another important development within the framework is the strengthening of accountability arrangements. The revised approach seeks to make expectations clearer for NHS organisations while providing greater consistency in how evidence is reviewed and how organisational assurance is assessed. It also promotes a more comprehensive view of organisational performance, drawing together information from across the various domains to support a rounded assessment of organisational health and capability.

The review has also highlighted the importance of leadership, culture and governance in determining organisational success. Recent discussions concerning organisational performance have repeatedly demonstrated that sustainable improvement is dependent not only on operational delivery, but also on strong leadership, effective governance and a culture that supports openness, learning and accountability.

Importantly, the framework recognises that accountability and support are two sides of the same coin. Organisations must continue to be held accountable for delivering high-quality, safe and sustainable services, but they must also have access to the right support when challenges emerge. That's why the framework seeks to balance constructive challenge with practical support, using expertise to help organisations improve. The aim is to help organisations build their own capability to improve, rather than creating dependency on external oversight.

The framework was developed through engagement between Welsh Government officials, NHS organisations and key stakeholders. It reflects a shared ambition to strengthen accountability, improve transparency and support organisations to achieve sustained improvement for the populations they serve.

The review of the old framework and the development of the new framework represents an important step forward in the way that we oversee performance and help organisations improve across NHS Wales. The new framework brings together accountability, escalation and improvement support into a single integrated system. It provides clearer accountability, more proportionate oversight and earlier support where risks emerge. That helps to strengthen transparency and focus on ensuring better outcomes for patients, staff and communities across Wales. 

Ultimately, the aim of these changes is to give the people of Wales greater confidence that NHS services will receive the necessary support to respond to challenges and improve. The new framework will help identify issues earlier, provide more consistent support to organisations, and ensure that concerns are addressed in a timely and transparent way. For patients and communities, this means services that are better, safer and more reliable, more consistent care, and ensuring that everyone receives the treatment and support that they deserve. Thanks.

Thank you, Cabinet Minister, for giving us advance sight of the statement.

I'm glad that we are talking about the escalation framework today, because it's clear to me that the current framework is, frankly, ineffective. Health boards across Wales are sitting in level 4 for certain parts of their domains, or indeed, in the case of Betsi Cadwaladr, level 5, and meanwhile waiting lists continue to go up across the country and patients are not seeing the improvements that they deserve.

There are things in the statement today and within the review, however, that I do agree with. I fundamentally agree with the outcomes for patients being put at the centre of this review, and alongside the outcomes for patients, the addition of the workforce as one of the key pillars within this framework, as I think one thing that is mentioned less than it should be is that the performance of the NHS is not just letting down the patients who depend on it, but it's also letting down those front-line staff who often have to bear the brunt of the frustrations of people interacting with the system.

I also agree that proactivity in intervention should be the objective. We should be ensuring that these health boards are held to a higher quality of standard before the issues arise, and not be seeking to administer remedial action after the issues have already arisen.

One thing that is also mentioned in your statement that I do agree with is the importance of leadership and governance in determining the success of organisational capacity, alongside strengthening accountability for leadership within our health organisations. We at Reform were clear that those who operate our health boards should be held accountable for the performance within them, and we would have considered, if necessary, amending the National Health Service (Wales) Act 2006 to ensure that ministerial authority can be held over these health boards, and if necessary, link pay to performance when it comes to some of these health board bosses who are earning large salaries but failing to deliver for our people.

It's obviously up to Ministers to make the important decisions, and that's something that's outlined in this new framework, but when I was reading through it earlier, there were a couple of occasions where it seemed to me that lines were blurred between Welsh Government taking meetings and providing information versus Ministers. So, I'd like to ask for clarity in terms of where the line drawn is with this new framework. Where will civil servants or other members working for the Government be taking meetings with health boards, and when will meetings be taken by you or your Deputy Ministers?

I'd also like to ask how the lessons learned from intervening with these health boards are being learned and how they will be applied across other health boards in Wales, so that we don't have to keep coming back and deal with the same interventions time and time again.

Another thing that's mentioned in the new framework today is escalation boards. So, once these health boards are put into level 3 or above, escalation board meetings can be held. But there was detail lacking, from what I could read, in terms of how frequent these escalation board meetings will be, what will be discussed within them, and who will be doing the discussing and the decision making within those meetings.

Criteria were also given in terms of de-escalation within the framework, but in terms of the criteria that I read, these were illustrative criteria. So, I'd like to ask: how will the final criteria be determined? I assume they'll be on a case-by-case basis. And who will be determining the criteria both for escalation and de-escalation through the new framework?

Finally, it's mentioned that, in level 5, there will be consideration given to changes of governance within health boards and, at level 4, that there will be leadership and organisational assessments that will be conducted with regard to the leadership of these health boards. So, I would like to ask: how will these assessments be conducted? Who will be reviewed, and on what criteria will they be reviewed by? If, as is the case for many of our health boards across the country, a health board has been sat in level 4 or, indeed, level 5 for an extended period of time, at what point will the Government intervene and pursue organisational changes within the health boards, to ensure that those who are failing to deliver for our patients in Wales are held to account? Diolch yn fawr. 

Thank you very much for those comments.

I welcome you to your post and congratulate you on your appointment as shadow spokesperson for health and care. Good luck with it. I thank your predecessor as well for his contributions. 

I welcome the fact that you see the value of what we've put forward here, and that you welcome much of what we've put forward. I would hope that we would have cross-party support for what we are hoping to achieve here. You mentioned putting outcomes at the centre of what we want to achieve, that workforce is important and that we take proactive action, which is all about making sure that we deal with issues before they become major problems that impact on the health outcomes of our people. But you did raise some questions and I'll try my best to respond to as many of them as I can in the few minutes I have.

On the blurred lines you mentioned between civil servants and the Minister, ultimately, my civil servants and officials have meetings regularly with health boards, on a weekly basis, and the director general of the NHS will have regular meetings with the chief executives of health boards.

When it comes to an escalated level and when we need to look at specific issues within health boards, the agreement on how we escalate them and which matters need to be looked at will be come to between Audit Wales, Healthcare Inspectorate Wales, the Welsh Government and the health boards themselves, so that they are an equal partner in this, that they realise what the issues are, and that they come up with solutions with other partners and stakeholders. Then, the work will be led by NHS Wales Performance and Improvement.

NHS Wales Performance and Improvement will lead that work, but, going on to another question you asked about ensuring that lessons are learnt, they will then take those lessons and, in another health board or trust, if an issue arises, they will take those lessons and use them in the learnings for the problems that might arise in other health boards.

The assessments that you mentioned and what criteria will be set will be judged by those stakeholders, including the health boards, but they will be transparent so that people can have confidence in the process. We know in the previous process, it was accused of being used as a political weapon more often than not. This shouldn't be about politics—this should be about making sure that health boards improve if they have problems and de-escalate when they can, so that people can have confidence in the healthcare that they receive. The process will be transparent, assessments will be made by the stakeholders transparently, collectively, and then the de-escalation process will also be transparent and show accountability for the process and how they have come to the judgements they've got for de-escalation purposes.

I think that has responded to most of the questions you asked, at least.

Minister, thanks for the update today on the review of the escalation and intervention framework. One thing that remains unclear to me is around the difference in outcome. What is the difference that you hope to achieve or would expect, and what will the new framework do that couldn't already be done? Furthermore, what exactly are the enhanced mechanisms for earlier identification of risk, and what does earlier deployment of support look like in reality?

Turning to the brilliant workforce within the NHS, what additional staffing and resources will be made available, and will there need to be further expertise and funding to go alongside the new framework? If so, who will provide those resources? Will it come from health board budgets, or will it come via the Welsh Government through Welsh Government budgets? Where health boards fail to improve under this new framework, what happens next and who will be held accountable ultimately?

Patients want to know that when they go into a hospital they're getting the best possible care, and that they're being treated as quickly as possible. How does this framework help with that? What measurable improvements, for example, will there be in safety, access and quality that patients should expect, and how long until they see those?

Finally, waiting lists are still a major problem. They've been going up month after month recently. So when will we see improvements and how will this statement today, and the new framework, help in driving down waiting lists? Diolch.

Thank you for those questions.

Thank you for those questions. They are fair questions. I think when you look at what we are proposing and how we propose to improve outcomes, it states early in the document that the difference between this framework and the previous one is that we have clearer thresholds, there's less duplication, there's greater transparency there, and we have an early identification of risk. So, when a health board or a health trust goes into level 2, we identify early on that there's a problem and ensure that it doesn't become a level 3 or a level 4, and we put that intervention in at an earlier stage. There's a stronger focus on outcomes, rather than just dealing with a crisis when it hits. We make sure that we deal with something earlier on so that those outcomes, whether it be ambulance times or urgent and emergency care or finance and performance, are seen at an earlier stage, and that there are better outcomes in that respect.

More importantly, it also looks at the patient experience and takes on board patient experience. So that is factored into it. It looks at those four key themes, as I said, so there is the quality of service that is crucial in determining if a health board is escalated. The workforce, and the impact on the workforce, is another pillar. The finance and planning delivery and performance is a third pillar, and the leadership, the culture set there, is crucial when it comes to deciding whether or not they can be de-escalated or need to be escalated further. That's what came through in the review, that's what health boards and health managers and people working in the sector themselves told us they thought was missing—ensuring that we have the proper leadership in place.

If I can just make a side note, you mentioned people going to hospitals. I would suggest that we move away from just thinking about hospitals, because the framework looks at all health trusts and health boards, and the health boards delivering primary care as well, primarily. We've got patients that need to look at care closer to home. It also looks at the performance of a health board and the finances of a health board, not just the delivery of services. But absolutely, what we will see is, when a board is put into an escalated measure, there will be transparency around that, so patients know what to expect, what level they're at and what work is being carried out.

You ask about what further resource is put into it. As you will know from your time in Government—I presume that you will have seen some of the Cabinet papers by former health Ministers—hundreds of millions of pounds have been put into supporting health boards over the years, so a level of support will be put in there, there's no change in that respect, but the delivery will be carried out by NHS Wales Performance and Improvement. They are currently carrying out a well-led review with us in Betsi Cadwaladr. NHSPI will then be equipped to make sure that, if work needs to be done, if something needs to be done on let's say cancer outcomes, they can go in with a specialist to help deliver that improvement that's needed in a certain health board or trust.

I thank the Cabinet Minister for his statement this afternoon. Reviewing the escalation and intervention framework is an incredibly important piece of work, and patient outcomes should be at the heart of this. Let's be totally honest: existing arrangements have failed in the past. They have not delivered the sustained improvement that patients and staff rightfully deserve and need.

If we use Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board as an example, it has been in the highest level of intervention for several years now, and things sadly aren't improving. In fact, it was reported only last week that Betsi reported 13 never events, which are serious, largely preventable incidents that should not be happening at all. Betsi has spent longer in special measures than any other organisation in the history of the NHS. This is a damning indictment of the current framework. So, Cabinet Minister, my question is simple: what are your plans doing to deliver the much-needed improvements?

Sticking with Betsi just for a minute, in June this year, Cabinet Minister, you gave the health board a final chance to improve. You said that all options were on the table as you were sick and tired of the health board being a byword for dysfunction and declining standards. So, will the Cabinet Minister provide an update on the current situation and where you expect Betsi to fall under this new framework?

We also know that special measures and health board interventions can be used as a political tool, as we saw, unfortunately, with the Labour politicians here in the Chamber. Take Vaughan Gething, for example: during his time as health Minister he removed Betsi from special measures just before the 2021 Senedd election in what I can only describe as a desperate attempt to curry favour with voters. So, can I get a commitment from you today, Minister, that this Government will not fall under the same trap as Mr Gething and will not use these interventions for political gain? 

Cabinet Minister, you've set out your ambitions going forward, but this afternoon's statement was a little bit light for me on the detail of what the review unearthed. Perhaps you can elaborate on that for us, please, here in the Chamber. Was the problem the escalation criteria, the speed at which previous Governments acted, the quality of information available, or a broader failure to hold health boards to account when agreed improvements were not delivered? The Cabinet Minister has spoken about the need for earlier intervention when things start going wrong, so what will trigger intervention earlier, and how will the Government act swiftly to prevent situations becoming embedded within health boards?

We all want to see improvements, and I hope for the sake of patients and staff that this is a success, but what happens if the interventions don't work? As I've already said, Betsi has been in some form of special measures for years, so I'm really curious to know what your backup plan is when agreed improvements are not delivered, Minister. At what point does this Government move from supporting a health board to directing it? And will any additional powers become available as part of this new framework?

Finally, Cabinet Minister, how will you monitor the success of your new framework? Anyone who knows me knows that I love a good KPI, so what are your KPIs? In my mind, the only way this will be judged successful is if it leads to genuine improvements for patients, rather than just changing how many health boards are moved between escalation levels. Thank you very much. 

Thank you very much, Natasha, for that series of questions.

Thank you for those. You ask what will it do to secure improvements. I've got to just remind you that responsibility and accountability for delivery of day-to-day services is still held by the health boards. I don't personally run the health board or go in there and dictate what staff do or what theatre spaces are used and so forth. That's why we have to make sure that we have a system in place that people can have confidence in, that is transparent, where people know what the issues are, and that is consistent across Wales, and that's what we're putting in place here.

Following up on part of the question that you asked at the end there, which was what the problem was with the previous framework, it's exactly that—there wasn't confidence in it. I wrote a paper on this three years ago. It's in the library upstairs if you want to go and read it. It's a very good paper. So, it shouldn't come as a surprise that we're doing this. The health boards, trusts and organisations didn't have confidence in that process, because they didn't know by what criteria they were being escalated or downgraded. There wasn't transparency around that. One health board had a different criteria set to another health board. So, we needed to set in place a consistent process whereby everybody knew what they were being measured against, which is what we're doing here.

Running at the best part of 20 pages with a lot of detail in it, it is a comprehensive framework, and it will be reviewed over the next 12 months. So, you can have confidence that any lessons from implementing it that need to be learned will be learned over the next 12 months. I would, in fact, welcome and invite you to provide your own evidence at the end of the process to see if you have confidence in the process along with others within 12 months' time. So, we will be monitoring it over that 12-month period. It won't be, therefore, used as a political football. I can promise you I won't use it as a political football. I want to depoliticise things. That's why we've put transparency central in this new framework.

I welcome the publication of the new accountability and support framework, in particular its emphasis on early identification and purposeful intervention. As Benjamin Hodge Mckenna said, the current framework isn't working. Preventing and making it easier to tackle challenges before they become crises is an approach that I agree with, and I think that everyone in the Chamber would agree with that too. I'm pleased that it's being used in the area of health and our NHS, but also more broadly, as a general guiding principle. 

I hope that the new framework will strengthen accountability and improve services, but given such regional variation in services and performance—something I myself regularly talk about—how will you ensure that the framework is applied consistently across all health boards in Wales, where there is so much variation at present? Thank you. 

Thank you, Gwyn, for those questions. And I'm always reluctant to tackle any questions that specialist clinicians such as Gwyn, and, indeed, Safa, can ask, so I'm very pleased that we're talking about something more technical here. 

But the Member is perfectly right to note that early intervention is a core part of this Government's principles—ensuring that we recognise problems and that we tackle them before they arise. And that's why this is central to the new framework. But how do we ensure that there is consistent provision across Wales? Well, that will happen through the fact that we will gather stakeholders—Healthcare Inspectorate Wales, Audit Wales, Welsh Government, and the health boards themselves—in order to have that consistency when issues arise, and that it'll be undertaken through NHSPI, and that it's all public. 

In terms of consistency, one element that won't be consistent, perhaps, every time is that different regions will have unique problems, and that the health boards will provide input into that process. So, there will be slightly different elements in terms of enabling for those regional differences, but the framework will be consistent across Wales. 

I thank you, Minister, for your statement, and, genuinely, I hope this does work, for all of my constituents in Clwyd, but also for myself and my family. Certainly, with Betsi Cadwaladr health board, you never quite know when you're going there what's going to happen, and we've had some horror stories over the last 12 months, particularly.

But I just wanted to focus on this idea of health boards setting their own criteria and the assessments being made by stakeholders. I'm just a bit concerned about that, because, obviously, there's senior management in place right now, and chief executives in place right now, who are overseeing health boards that really aren't doing a good enough job. And you're sort of asking them to mark their own homework. I'd hope they would be very nervous about this framework coming in and they'd need to pull their socks up. Because this is about leadership and culture. So, that's down to human beings inside organisations just not doing a good enough job, and trying to change that culture has to be carrot and stick. So, I'm slightly concerned about them setting their own criteria, so a little bit more about that, please. 

And then, in terms of making the public aware of what we're doing, it's a pretty dry document, isn't it? And it's trying to make sure that the public understand that all of us want to make sure the NHS is a much better-run organisation. How are we going to get that across to the public about these changes? And, particularly, I was interested that the accountability review may be held in public for health boards. So, tell us a little bit more about that, and about setting your own criteria. Diolch. 

Diolch, Louise. Very good points there. You're very, very right, it's a dry document, isn't it, and I think it shows in the numbers present here. It's not, probably, the most exciting thing, but it's one of the foundational pieces of work that we have to get to grips with if we're going to see improvement in the health service in Wales, hence why we've commissioned the work and we're announcing it today. 

It's not that health boards will be setting their own criteria; they'll be working with HIW, Audit Wales and the Welsh Government, who will be key stakeholders in that. But what we want is for health boards to take ownership and be answerable for problems in their health boards, rather than wash their hands of it and deny any responsibility and try and palm it off to somebody else.

So, we want health boards, and trusts as well, to realise, if there is a problem, they identify it—we identify it early, collectively, we put in place the intervention measures required to deal with it at an early stage before it escalates, and then they can move on in confidence that that problem has been dealt with at an earlier stage. That's why they have to be key in identifying those problems. It's not that they say, 'Well, we think that this problem is small and we're not going to deal with it.' It's taking ownership, answerability and accountability—crucial when it comes to ensuring that we have improvement in the health service.

I welcome the fact that you're hopeful that this will work. I think we're all hopeful that it will work. And I'm confident that we've got a new framework in place that will ensure clarity, consistency and transparency, and that it will hold health boards to account far more than the previous framework that we had. 

Prynhawn da, Weinidog. We're all going to use current examples, because that's exactly how we can relate the statement to what's going on in our current health boards. The statement does stress leadership, governance and openness as central to organisational success. Powys Teaching Health Board has none of those. It has lost trust from its residents—we've lost confidence in their leadership and governance. Nine thousand and three hundred people have signed a petition to say, 'Stop the closure of community beds in eight of our community hospitals across Powys'. They want to centralise them into the middle, so, if you live in Machynlleth, or live in Ystradgynlais, you have to travel. We've held six public meetings; 1,500 people have been to them. Last night, we held one in Knighton. Once again, people are saying they have absolutely no confidence in the board at Powys Teaching Health Board. We want the process stopped, we want the board to be sacked. Please don't say we need to wait for the consultation to happen—it will be too late. So, how does this statement, how does this review, help the people of Powys right now to stop what is going on? Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Thank you for that. I am disappointed that you're taking this opportunity to make political points on issues that are beyond what we're addressing today. You know full well that the Government can't intervene in the process that is currently ongoing when it comes to reviewing healthcare provision in Powys or in any other health board. I would hope that everyone present would be entirely aware of the rules saying that a Minister cannot intervene in that process; it's been well known for a very long period of time. So, I'm not going to discuss the process that's ongoing in Powys at the moment.

Powys is at level 4 in relation to the current escalation framework when it comes to budget, strategy and planning. That's a decision that was made by stakeholders, as I've mentioned. And once again, when it comes to looking at the provision of health services in Powys in its entirety, just like any other health board, they will be measured according to the same system as every other health board. But I would encourage people to get in touch if they have concerns about what's happening in terms of the recommendations in Powys. No decision has yet been made—it is a live process. So, if people want to contribute to that process, then do so, contact the health board. More than that, contact Llais—ensure that Llais is aware of any concerns or support that you may have. I've made it clear, in terms of any reorganisation of services in any region in Wales, that we must take into account factors like rurality, local transport, access to services. All of these have to be considerations as any health board draws up its local health services plan in their area.

Finally, Cabinet Minister, Anna Nicholl.

Thank you, Cabinet Minister. I welcome this new national accountability and support framework. In the past, we've seen organisations remain in escalation for years without it being clear that the intervention itself was delivering improvement. I'm particularly concerned about Hywel Dda health board, where finance, strategy and planning, and urgent and emergency care, have risen to level 4. Digital Health and Care Wales, which should be helping to transform services and deliver sustainable solutions, actually moved from level 1 in 2024 to whole-organisation level 4 intervention in April 2026. So whilst, Cabinet Minister, I welcome the emphasis on prevention, transparency and better outcomes, how will you ensure that this new framework creates the space needed for leadership and for investment for the long term so it does make meaningful, sustainable change for patients? Diolch.

Thank you very much to Anna Nicholl for that series of hugely important questions when it comes to looking at how we ensure that we create that space to improve leadership. Leadership is at the heart of this new framework. It is one of those things where we are aware, if the culture is right from the top down, then that will lead to better results across the board. The Member is right in saying that Hywel Dda is at level 4, and, indeed, level 3 for planned care, and, indeed, Digital Health and Care Wales is in level 4 too. So, not one of the health boards is in an ideal position. We don't want to see them in this position. The framework that we've drawn up is one that goes as far as possible within the legislative frameworks available to us, namely the National Health Service (Wales) Act 2006, the National Health Service Finance (Wales) Act 2014, the Health and Social Care (Quality and Engagement) (Wales) Act 2020, and the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015. Within all of those, and the other frameworks, this will take us as far as possible in terms of holding the health boards to account, but, more than that, ensure that there is early identification of any problems, that support is provided, and that we take the health boards on an improvement journey so that— exactly as you said—we improve outcomes for the people of Wales. Because the intention is no longer to point the finger and to criticise and to use the escalation framework as a political tool; our intention now is to create a framework that will take health boards on a journey in order to improve outcomes for the people of Wales, from Anglesey to Monmouthshire.

Thank you very much, Cabinet Minister.

We'll move now to a statement by the Cabinet Minister for Local Government Housing and Planning, the revision of the national development framework and national conversation. I call on the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning, Siân Gwenllian.

Thank you very much, Dirprwy Lywydd. Today, I'm pleased to inform Members that I've launched a national conversation about the future of Wales through the creation of a new national development framework. The national development framework sits at the heart of the planning system in Wales, providing the strategic direction for regional and local development plans, and the framework for planning and development decisions across Wales. As Wales continues to respond to significant challenges, including climate change, nature recovery, housing need, economic growth and infrastructure delivery, it's essential that our national planning framework is fit for purpose and capable of supporting our nation's ambitions for the future.

Within the first 100 days of this new Government, a public consultation was launched marking the start of the process for revising the framework and beginning a national conversation about the long-term future of Wales. Rather than consulting solely on planning matters, engagement work throughout the process will invite people to consider the long-term future of Wales and the role that places, communities, infrastructure, the environment, the Welsh language and culture should play in shaping our nation's future to 2050.

We are inviting the people of Wales to help shape the direction, priorities and scope of the new national development framework. This reflects our commitment to work with local authorities, regional partners and stakeholders across Wales to develop a framework that meets Wales's needs, empowers local government, and reduces costs, bureaucracy and duplication. It also supports our ambition to move towards a community-centred approach to planning, giving communities a real say on how we secure the homes, the workplaces and infrastructure they need. The framework will play a key, overarching role in how those decisions are made locally, regionally and nationally.

Importantly, the national conversation will also help co-ordination across a range of plans and strategies that are being taken forward during this Government term, as outlined in our programme for government that was published last week. This collaborative and co-ordinated approach to align national priorities will ensure more effective delivery of Government objectives.

The decisions made through the planning system touch every aspect of daily life. They influence where homes are built, how people travel, where businesses invest, how energy is generated and distributed, and how we protect and enhance our natural environment. That is why it's so important that the new national development framework is shaped by a broad range of voices, experiences and evidence. I want this to be an open, inclusive and meaningful national conversation. The national development framework belongs to everybody, considering its importance in providing a framework for new development across Wales. We welcome and encourage representations from everyone, and every group, institution, business and individual has a contribution to make in developing the national spatial plan.

Alongside the opportunity to submit written representations and submit evidence to support the revision work, the current consultation includes a series of public and stakeholder events across Wales. They'll be taking place in Cardiff tomorrow, on 30 September, Aberystwyth on 6 October and Llandudno on 23 October. They provide the opportunity for all, including local authorities, businesses, developers, infrastructure providers, environmental organisations, housing bodies, community groups, young people and members of the public to have their say and give their views.

Evidence will also play a critical role throughout this process. Through this consultation, I’m inviting stakeholders to contribute information, research, analysis and insight on the opportunities and challenges that Wales is likely to face over the coming decades. This evidence will help inform the preparation of the revised framework, its overall vision, the options that will be considered and the policies contained within it.

At its core, planning is about creating better places for people and the environment. Therefore, the revised national development framework must support sustainable economic growth, resilient communities, environmental stewardship and the long-term well-being of current and future generations. I therefore encourage everyone with an interest in the future of Wales to engage with this consultation and contribute to this important national conversation. Responses can be submitted online, by e-mail or by post until 20 November this year, but there will be more opportunities to engage shortly as well. Thank you.

Thank you to the Minister for her response this afternoon. Minister, Wales is not short of plans, it is short of homes, though, and this statement offers the people of Wales potentially four more years of plans. So, this really is just a plan for a plan.

The Minister has told us that this revision will cut costs, bureaucracy and duplication, and I certainly welcome that, Minister, but I've read your party's manifesto, and it points in a completely opposite direction. Plaid promised Welsh language impact assessments in the planning system. They've promised community ownership stakes in larger energy companies, a new Welsh water regulator and a review of second homes and holiday lets, not to mention a new climate and nature action plan. Some of these, though, Minister, are not mentioned in this statement. But every one of those is another piece of red tape, another stakeholder, more paperwork for local sites to wade through, and another reason for planners to say 'no'.

So, firstly, can the Minister tell this Chamber which of these new layers is she prepared to drop in the name of efficiency, which she wants? Because the numbers demand it. When 'Future Wales' was adopted, the Government said that Wales needed 7,400 homes a year. In 2024-25, we built under 5,000, and last year we built just over 5,000, still well below the levels pre-pandemic. Her own experts now say we need 8,700 a year. We in Reform said plainly during the election that Wales needs at least 10,000 additional homes just to catch up. So, I ask the Minister: will this framework finally contain a delivery figure for all tenures that this Senedd can hold her and the Government to account on? And we need to include all tenures because, as I mentioned before, Minister, 83 per cent of Welsh homes are owner-occupied or are private rented accommodation, yet this Government acts like the private sector is irrelevant. Almost every housing headline this Government produces is about social housing, about speeding up development for social housing or anything that ticks the box for net zero.

This country already has one of the largest housing stocks in Europe for social housing. So, in the framework, will the Minister rule out any two-tier systems for private and social, making sure that any cuts to red tape also apply to private developments, to help the majority who are private renters and mortgage holders, because, Minister, private developers deliver almost half of so-called affordable housing? Of course, the only way to have generally affordable housing is by making sure that market supply actually meets demand. The young couple saving up for a home, or a family renting privately, deserve a Government that is on their side too. Where is the ambition for people to want to own their own home?

Then there is drainage. Since 2019, any development in Wales of more than one home has needed a separate sustainable drainage system approval before a spade goes into the ground. England has never switched that regime on; drainage is handled through planning and expected on schemes of 10 houses or more. So, a small, local builder building two houses faces a second approval, a second fee and a second delay that his competitor over the border doesn't have.

So, as you launch a national conversation—perhaps Plaid are out of ideas—let me contribute to it with these ideas that Reform have already published. Put clear statutory time limits on planning decisions and put financial penalties on planning departments that fail to meet them. Limit repeat consultations, relax the rules so that farming families can build homes on their own land and, finally, commit that the new framework carries a burden test, which is what I've asked for previously.

None of this needs a conversation. Our planning system doesn't need another long review. We, on these benches, will back measures that get homes built faster. But if this revision simply adds Plaid's new layers on top of Labour's old ones, this whole process will cause more harm than good.

Thank you very much for those comments, and thank you in particular for the ideas that you put forward at the end of your contribution—those ideas on practical steps that could be taken. That's the exact purpose of this consultation: to invite people like you, like all of us in this Chamber, to give serious consideration to how we can improve the planning system so that it can respond more quickly to planning applications when problems arise with the issues that you mentioned in your contribution. So, there are a few ideas there that are worth looking into, and I would encourage some of you who are interested in this area—many of us have been county councillors and are highly aware that the planning system can sometimes hold back housing development. That is exactly why we are carrying out this consultation.

It is a consultation on how the planning process needs to be made more effective and efficient, but it is also a consultation on our long-term vision for Wales. The reason for doing this is that we feel that, during the existence of this Senedd, a clear direction in terms of the future of our nation hasn't been adequately apparent. So, there is an opportunity, with a new Government, to use the process that exists in statute already, namely the reform of the national planning framework, to have that conversation with the people of Wales on the long-term future of our nation.

Plaid Cymru firmly believes in building Wales, in building the nation, and creating a Wales that works for the people of Wales, connecting Wales more effectively in terms of transport, for example. That isn't happening at the moment, as anyone who travels around our country will know. We are not well connected, so transport comes into this consultation.

There is an opportunity to discuss energy policy too. We know that we are facing challenges in moving forward with more renewable energy developments. So, under this framework, there are a number of different plans that will sit underneath it. And I understand the comments that you make about plans and strategies, and so on, and I share some of that frustration. What we want is action, to see things happening. But they have to happen in a co-ordinated way and in a way that has been properly discussed in terms of the long-term direction of travel that we want to see for our nation. I don't think that 'Future Wales', the current plan, provides that clear picture as to what kind of future Wales needs. And certainly, 'Future Wales', the existing plan, hasn't been able to identify some of the major challenges, some of which are developing as we speak, of course, because the plan is old, and there are new challenges coming to face us all the time and we must, therefore, reform in order to take into account all those other issues that are part of our vision for developing our nation. Thank you.

Thank you, Cabinet Minister, for your statement here today. Let me start by saying that it is a good thing that the Government is in listening mode, but having said that, this national conversation can't become an excuse for Ministers not to act and nor can it be allowed to hold up delivery elsewhere. So far, this Government's instinct has too often been to announce reviews and outsource decisions, rather than take the action needed. We've already seen more than 30 talking shops, reviews and expert panels announced, but precious little action, and planning is an area where we really need that speedy reform, not least to build the homes that Wales needs and to power the clean energy revolution. So, Cabinet Minister, can you confirm that the Government will use every lever available through the planning system to support the growth of Wales's renewable energy sector?

Cabinet Minister, you also said today that this national conversation will help co-ordinate a range of plans and strategies in the programme for government. But can you explain exactly what that means? Are other Government policies dependent on the outcome of this conversation, and if so, which ones?

Lastly, Cabinet Minister, you say that you want this to be an open, inclusive and meaningful conversation, but today, we've heard about just three events across the whole of Wales—in Cardiff, Aberystwyth and Llandudno. So, what reassurance can you provide, Minister, that communities in every part of Wales will have a meaningful opportunity to be heard? And will you commit to publishing what people tell the Government and what policy changes actually come out of this conversation?

Thank you very much, and thank you, Vikki, for welcoming the fact that we are consulting on the national development framework. Certainly, consulting on this doesn't mean that we aren't doing other things in the meantime. With 'Planning Policy Wales', for example, there is a way for us to bring reforms into that policy, as I mentioned previously, in order to move ahead with some of our ambitions swiftly. But I do believe that we need a long-term vision for our nation, and that, in a way, is the opportunity that we have now, and an opportunity to listen to what the people of Wales see as the main challenges. This framework will be a spatial framework, it seems—that's the way of explaining it—so that people can see on a map how the developments in different areas would fit together.

In terms of engagement, the process of engaging on this framework is set out in legislation going back to 2015, before I was in this Senedd, even. During that period, the Planning (Wales) Act 2015 was passed, and there's a requirement in that for the Government to create a national development framework. The Act also sets out the kind of process required in order to reform or create a new framework. Before 2015, there wasn't a statutory national framework. Some of you will remember the Wales spatial plan, but that didn't have any statutory basis. I think it was something to be welcomed when this legislation was introduced. The process of creating and revising the framework is a long-winded one, I would agree with that, and I'm sure that perhaps there's a need to revise that.

We are starting the process today and asking for evidence from every direction. Following that, there will be further opportunities. If you look at the current consultation, it asks questions about whether we're asking the right questions and providing everyone with an opportunity to think, 'We're not asking this, we're not going after this issue, perhaps we should be doing that.' Then there's a process of another consultation. It’s going to take two to three years to take action on it. That’s the Act.

Do I agree with all of that? No, probably not. We should be able to do things much quicker, but that's the situation we are in currently. So, as well as the three workshops, there will be many more opportunities for everybody in Wales to take part and to be part of this conversation. You will be hearing more from me on this subject over the next two to three years.

Can I thank the Cabinet Minister for today's statement? A national development framework should be one of the most important documents produced by our Government. It shapes how and where we build homes, where investment goes, how our transport networks develop, how we support businesses, and, ultimately, what kind of Wales we will leave for our next generation. The Cabinet Minister has described this process as a national conversation about the future of Wales to 2050. I also echo what Vikki Howells just said. Whilst engagement is important, people will rightly expect this exercise to result in real change on the ground, rather than simply another consultation process.

Whilst we welcome the decision to review the current framework, the real question is whether this process will lead to meaningful change or simply result in another strategy document, unless the Government is prepared to follow through with meaningful and measurable reforms, because Wales needs action, not bureaucracy. The Government's own first 100 days plan states that it wants

'a new National Development Framework that...empowers local government and reduces costs, bureaucracy and duplication.' 

Those are objectives that I think many Members across the Chamber could indeed support. The challenge, however, will be whether this Government is prepared to deliver the reforms necessary to achieve them. The Minister has highlighted this review has been launched within the Government's first 100 days. Can she therefore explain what concrete reforms she expects this process to deliver beyond consultation and engagement exercises?

For too long, communities, businesses and local authorities have expressed frustration at a planning system that is often complex, slow and difficult to navigate. We are in the midst of a housing crisis. Too many young people are finding home ownership out of reach. Social housing waiting lists remain too high. Local authorities are under pressure to meet housing demand, whilst balancing infrastructure and environmental considerations. At the same time, businesses often face delays and uncertainty when seeking planning consent for developments that could bring jobs and investments into our local communities.

If this revised framework is to be judged a success, it must help address these challenges. It must support the delivery of more homes in the places people actually want and need them. It must help regenerate our town centres, it must support better transport connectivity and infrastructure, and it must create the conditions for economic growth in every part of Wales.

Planning should be about enabling opportunity, not creating obstacles. Housing must remain a central priority, but this review must also address the wider infrastructure that allows communities to thrive. New homes must be accompanied by transport links, utilities, healthcare provision and employment opportunities. Planning policies should help deliver balanced and sustainable communities, rather than simply allocating land.

The Cabinet Minister has also referred to a national conversation. Of course, it is right that the public should have a voice in shaping the future development of Wales. But that conversation must be rooted in the practical concerns raised by people every day. When I speak to residents, they are concerned about whether their children will ever be able to afford a home in their community. They're concerned about congestion and poor transport links. They're concerned about attracting jobs and investments into their towns and cities. They're also concerned about the future sustainability of their local services. Those are the conversations that really and truly matter. It is essential that local communities feel their voices are genuinely influencing decisions, rather than simply being consulted after key decisions are made already here in the Chamber.

The Government has also spoken about empowering local government. Again, it's a welcome aspiration, but this has to be more than warm words. It means trusting councils and local communities to shape their own future, reducing unnecessary duplication between national, regional and local structures, and it means ensuring that planning decisions are taken as close as possible to the people affected by them. I would therefore welcome further detail from the Minister on what specific planning processes she believes are creating unnecessary duplication, and what additional freedoms local authorities can expect under the new framework.

I hope the Cabinet Minister will ensure this review recognises that different parts of Wales have different challenges. The needs of rural communities are often very different to those of cities. Coastal communities face different pressures from those in the Valleys. A successful framework must recognise those differences, rather than attempting to impose a one-size-fits-all solution from Cardiff Bay.

The Minister also said that the revised framework will help align a range of Government plans and strategies. Whilst better co-ordination is indeed welcome, we must avoid creating additional layers of complexity that slow down decision making, investment and development. The ultimate test of this review will be whether it makes the planning system more effective, more responsive and easier to navigate for communities, businesses and local authorities alike. So, Cabinet Minister, we must approach this process constructively. We will support reforms that reduce bureaucracy. We will support measures that help deliver homes, infrastructure and investment. And we will support genuine efforts to strengthen local democracy and improve planning outcomes.

Ultimately, this review must be judged not by the number of consultations undertaken, reports commissioned or strategies produced, but whether it delivers tangible improvements for communities across Wales. The people of Wales need a planning system that helps build homes, create jobs and strengthen community support as well as economic growth. With that in mind—and my final area of questioning will be on this—can the Minister clarify how local authorities will be given greater influence under the revised framework, what specific measures will be introduced to reduce bureaucracy and duplication, and what timetable the Government is working to for moving from consultation to implementation? That is the standard against which we will assess this Government's proposals. Thank you.

Thank you very much, and thank you for raising a number of important points there. Whilst this consultation is ongoing, and it is an important consultation, of course, there is also a great deal of action taking place in this Government. As a mother who brought up four children alone, I know full well what it means to juggle different priorities and to keep many plates spinning simultaneously. So, the suggestion that one simply does one thing and therefore can't do anything else just isn't realistic in my own experience. Many Ministers and I have a whole host of different issues that we are working on as we speak today.

This consultation is one issue that I'm focused on, and I think that's crucially important. But I'm also focusing on delivering the target of 20,000 new social homes by the end of this Senedd term. I welcome your commitment to increasing the social housing stock too. The right for everyone to have a home is at the heart of the work that I am doing in this Senedd. But take a step back now. The development plan and the national development framework also look at issues related to housing. It also looks at issues related to economic growth.

My hope is, having listened and had those conversations, that we will have a new plan that will provide a realistic vision for the development of all parts of Wales. As you mentioned, that's crucially important. The plan and framework must enable us to distribute wealth and growth to all parts of Wales, retaining the economic powerhouses of Cardiff and Newport, but also distributing that economic growth to north, mid and south-west Wales. So, we need meaningful regional strategies too, which will be part of the long-term vision.

You mentioned reducing bureaucracy and planning processes. Well, bring your ideas forward. Everyone tells me that we need to accelerate the planning system, that we need to make things easier, and I agree, and I have some ideas as to how we can make progress in that area. I'm very happy to hear practical ideas as to how we deliver that, in practice, on the ground, so that we do remove some of these barriers that can hold developments back, including crucial housing developments.

Thank you for your statement today.

I'm looking forward to a new development framework for Wales so that it better serves our people, communities and businesses. Simplifying the planning process will be very welcome and will play a crucial role in increasing economic development and improving productivity. Wales is increasingly being recognised as a strategic location for the infrastructure needed to support the digital economy, but it is essential that the benefits of any investment are felt in the communities affected. Energy and resource consumption is a critical requirement for data centres, and the lack of grid capacity means these developments are often little more than power stations generating electricity from fossil fuels, with industrial-scale diesel generators as backup.

In my own constituency of Caerdydd Ffynnon Taf, a 47 MW gas-fired power station is proposed on the Cardiff east park-and-ride site, in an entirely unsuitable urban location close to schools, care homes and the new Maple Fields housing development. Therefore, the holding directive to give time for Planning and Environment Decisions Wales to consider whether to call in this application is welcome, but communities across Wales are seeking reassurance that we will avoid an unsustainable proliferation of data centres. Please can you provide an update on a specific data centre strategy for Wales as part of the national development framework? Diolch.

Thank you very much. I mentioned at the beginning that there's a need for a new national development framework because there are new challenges and opportunities facing Wales, which was different to the situation in 2015 when this process began, and different to the 2020-21 period, when the framework that still exists today was formed. There are new challenges facing us, and one of those is data centres. I can tell you that the Minister for economy and enterprise, whatever Adam Price's name is now, in his role—. My colleague Adam Price has commissioned work that is going to be looking at data centres and the use of artificial intelligence and so forth, because that specific area lies in his portfolio as Minister.

As I mentioned, this is one of the new things that is coming forward, and it's crucially important that we recognise, with the growth in data centres in Wales, that there is a need for a policy framework that is robust, and one that is going to be useful for the future. Probably we need to do that in a way that provides a balance between the economic benefits, but also recognises the real concerns that people have on a community level, and also the concern about the use of energy and water and so forth, and land use. I think that Adam Price has set out last week that we will be bringing a policy forward as soon as possible. Clearly, it's not appropriate for me to comment on the specific scheme that you've mentioned.

Can I thank the Minister for bringing this statement forward? But, Members, this revision will include at least seven different reports, 10 different assessments, and is not expected to be completed until the winter of 2029, a matter of months before the next Senedd election and, possibly, a change of Government, who may then choose to start this process all over again. This timeline is symbolic of the planning system in Wales—broken, costly and painfully slow. For example, planning rules require councils to decide on applications within 91 days, but the average wait for a council in my constituency is 223 days. Minister, I often hear from businesses across Wales who point to costly and long waits linked to the planning process as a significant barrier to investment in Wales. Would it not be better to get a grip on the planning crisis at Welsh planning authorities before starting years of work on changing the national framework? We need action now, not a three-year wait. Thank you.

Thank you very much. I do sympathise with your comments. The planning process does take too long. The planning process is complex. The voice of the community isn't heard sufficiently within the process of the development of local development plans, for example. I could go on and on. You as a local councillor will have come across some of those frustrations when we try and get developments through.

I have to say, of course, that planning departments—. Never mind the process itself, the planning departments are under significant pressure in our local authorities. One of the outcomes of years of cuts in public services is cuts to planning services and services of those kinds in order to protect education and social services and so on. So, I have great sympathy with the decline in our planning departments on the ground, and the Royal Town Planning Institute has drawn attention to this in a recent report and is very concerned that we don't have an adequate supply of planners coming through the system, even if we were to change the process, in order to deal with the level of work.

Now, we as a Government are trying to do something to address that issue, and we've supported the work of training new qualified planners across Wales and have created a new bursary scheme jointly with Ceredigion County Council in order to create up to an additional 12 qualified planners in rural areas, where the recruitment challenges are even greater.

So, I agree with some of what you said; I would point out, of course, that there are problems within the system as it's constituted at the moment, but there's now a wonderful opportunity for you to submit your ideas into the consultation—and not just the consultation, write to me, each and every one of you, with your practical ideas as to how we can get developments to move forward more quickly than they do at the moment.

Minister, in contrast to the Reform UK MS, I very much welcome the emphasis on holding a national conversation about the future of planning in Wales. The more people who can engage in that consultation, the better: they are the ones who ultimately will be affected by the planning decisions. As the conversation is now ongoing, I'm interested in how we ensure that it reaches the people who don't usually engage with the planning system.

In many of our communities in the Valleys and in post-industrial areas, people can be impacted directly by major planning decisions, but perhaps won't respond to formal consultations and won't attend public meetings and won't feel that the planning system has been planned necessarily for them to take part. Could you talk a little bit about how the Government is going to reach out to those communities proactively, and how will you assess then whether the national conversation has succeeded in extending participation beyond those who already engage with planning?

Thank you very much for those questions. I think there were two parts to your contribution there. First of all, in terms of engagement and this particular process of creating a new national development framework, I agree entirely with you that we must make a great effort to reach everyone across Wales so that everyone's voice is heard. As I mentioned, this engagement is just the first round, in terms of what will happen before Christmas, and those events have been and are being promoted through third sector groups such as Planning Aid Wales to encourage as many people as possible to participate. As we move to the next phases of the process, I am very eager to look at facilitating that engagement just as you mentioned, with a greater focus on those harder to reach groups, particularly, perhaps, in communities facing more cost-of-living challenges, for example. So, I will be thinking seriously about that second phase of the consultation.

In terms of your broader question as to how we encourage more people to participate in the planning process more generally and to take an interest in what's happening, I do think that there is an opportunity within the development of LDPs to ensure that the community voice can be heard at an earlier stage and more powerfully within that process. When it works, when the community is made aware and is involved in shaping the future of their communities—. I've seen it in action, happening in a way that allows housing developments that perhaps could be contentious in certain areas, but if people have been involved in the process from the outset then many of those concerns can be allayed. And therefore, I am eager to look at that aspect specifically. So, thank you for highlighting those issues.

And the final question, Minister. John Clark.

Thank you, Deputy Llywydd. Minister, a conversation that closes in November and a framework that arrives in 2029 is not a plan for homes, jobs or high streets now. The current framework already tells north Wales where it sits—national growth in Wrexham and Deeside, while Bangor Conwy Môn is offered only managed coastal growth. If this revision merely re-badges that map, businesses along the A55 will see no change.

Will the Minister confirm three things: first, that the engagement in the north-west will be as serious as in Cardiff; second, that empty and broken high streets will not be treated as lower priority issues; and, thirdly, that this revision will treat Bangor, Caernarfon, Llandudno and Holyhead as more than a supporting act to Wrexham and Deeside and that we won't have to wait until 2029 for a confirmation of that? Conversations do matter, but towns across the north-west cannot wait for the next plan.

I agree entirely with you, as one who represents an area in the very area that you've mentioned in the north-west of Wales, and having represented the area, and having had the privilege of doing so, for over 10 years now. So, you don't need to tell me that communities in the north-west sometimes feel that they are forgotten. This Government won't be forgetting those communities or any community across Wales. That is the vision, ultimately, that I hope can be developed as part of this new framework—that every part of Wales is important and that we need to distribute wealth and economic growth and opportunities across Wales so that we reach every part of the country.

Yes, it's going to take a while, because we are talking about something that is hugely important—the future of our nation. We can't just do it in a week or two; we do have to have those conversations and we need to bring people with us on that journey. But that doesn't mean that we aren't doing other things too. Just tomorrow, I will be meeting the town-centre taskforce, which will be gathering for the first time and that will bring clear recommendations forward by the beginning of next year on some of the challenges facing our town centres, with recommendations on ways of taking action in order to improve our high streets. And there are a number of other, similar issues that are ongoing as we speak.

I've mentioned the taskforce, I've mentioned social housing, there is work happening on retrofitting homes and so on—and that's just in my portfolio. Every Minister can talk to you about at least 10 other things that they are working on today in order to deliver change. But we do have to think of the destination and the future too and not forget, in the midst of those day-to-day important things that we're doing to improve people's lives, that we have to also have a clear vision for building our nation so that it is a nation that is fit for the future, and that brings together the aspirations of everyone here so that we can be far more ambitious in how we go about planning for the future. Thank you.

Thank you very much, Cabinet Minister.

Item 6 has been postponed.

So, I will move on to item 7, a statement by the Deputy Minister for Social Care, Mental Health and Women's Health, improving family-centred neonatal care in Wales, progress towards the Bliss baby charter. I call on the Cabinet Minister for Social Care, Mental Health and Women's Health, Delyth Jewell.

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. Today, I am pleased to provide Members with an update on the progress being made across Wales to improve the experience of babies and families receiving neonatal care through the Bliss baby charter. This is a sign of our ongoing commitment to safe, compassionate and equitable services that are centred on families.

Each year, around 2,800 premature and sick babies in Wales receive neonatal care. For many families, admission to a neonatal unit is one of the most fraught experiences they will ever have to face. Parents may spend weeks or months in hospital dealing with daily uncertainty about their baby's health while they balance travelling to and from the hospital, their job, any other caring responsibilities they have, their family life. 

In those most difficult of circumstances, the care and support that families receive has a lasting impact. Parents need clear information, they need practical and emotional support, and they need to have meaningful opportunities to be involved in their baby's care. Parents should never be treated as visitors but as vital to the care team. Because parents know their baby. They provide comfort, reassurance and continuity, and they have an important role in those decisions about the baby's care. Supporting that relationship is at the heart of the Bliss baby charter and the principles of family integrated care.

I'm so pleased to report that all neonatal units in Wales are now engaged with the charter, either having achieved bronze accreditation or more, or submitted themselves for assessment. The charter is a practical programme that helps services place babies and families at the heart of units. It supports parents to participate in ways that reflect their circumstances and wishes, including hands-on care, involvement in decisions, accessible information and help to remain close to their baby. The charter is not simply about achieving an accreditation award. It gives a structured framework for neonatal teams to recognise good practice, to identify gaps and to agree practical actions for improvement. It encourages services to use families' experiences to shape care and support.

In September 2025, the Welsh Government provided almost £100,000 to Bliss to establish a national neonatal service improvement programme for Wales. Since then, every neonatal unit has either achieved bronze-level accreditation or submitted evidence for assessment under the Bliss baby charter. This marks an important milestone for these services in Wales. However, that is not the end of the story. We have seen further progress: one unit has already achieved silver-level accreditation, and three other units are preparing to submit applications for assessment at this level. Therefore, the commitment of our teams to continuous improvement is abundantly clear. They are keen to ensure that the babies and families receiving their care have a better experience.

Over the past year, Bliss has worked directly with teams in neonatal units across Wales. Units have received support to assess their position against the charter's standards, to carry out reviews and audits, identify local priorities, and develop actions for improvement. Thanks to the programme, services also have the opportunity to share good practice and lessons learned along the way.

Now, not every unit is exactly the same. They vary in size, they vary in the specialist services they provide, and in their facilities, resources, and their staff. They also serve different communities. The charter sets out a national ambition for all units, a shared national ambition, and, at the same time, it allows each individual service

each individual service to focus on the changes that will make the greatest difference locally.

This would not be possible without the commitment of staff in these units across Wales, and I'd like to pay tribute to the commitment and hard work of those members of staff. Achievement of this programme requires strong leadership and continuous engagement, alongside the daily pressures associated with providing specialist care. Nurses, doctors, allied health professionals, psychologists, support workers and others are working together to place a greater emphasis on including and involving families in the development of services, and delivering meaningful improvements to care.

And we know, of course, that some parents will face additional barriers to being close to or involved in their baby’s care. These could include distance from their home, financial pressures, work, other caring responsibilities, language and communication needs, disability or difficulties in accessing accommodation and practical support. Equity is therefore central to the national programme. Bliss is developing bilingual resources, improving access to information and support for families in Wales, with particular attention to minority ethnic communities and areas of socio-economic disadvantage. This will help services consider not only whether support is available, but whether every family can understand, can access and can benefit from that support. 

The Bliss baby charter supports the quality statement for maternity and neonatal services. This sets out our national vision of providing safe, equitable and person-centred care. The quality statement recommends that health boards should follow the standards of the Bliss baby charter. It also recognises that listening to families' experiences, and involving them, is fundamental to ensuring quality and safety.

The improvements arising from this programme form part, of course, of our wider response to the recommendations set out in 'The path to safer beginnings in Wales' report. That work reinforces the importance of ensuring consistent national leadership arrangements and effective governance. It also confirms how important it is that we genuinely listen to families, while maintaining a strong focus on safety, quality and equity.

Now, while today is an opportunity to recognise progress, the work is not complete. Bronze accreditation is an important foundation, but accreditation must not become an end point. Lasting improvement will depend on units continuing to listen to families, to review their practices, to measure the impact of changes, and to build on what they have achieved. We have therefore secured continued funding throughout this financial year to further embed the national programme, to support units as they progress through the charter, and to strengthen the sustainability of improvements across health boards. 

During the next phase, Bliss will continue to provide tailored support to neonatal teams, and strengthen access to bilingual information for families. Lessons from the programme will build an understanding of where individual units may require further assistance to meet the needs of their local population, and where common barriers may require national action. We will continue to expect clear evidence of progress.

Now, as I've said, success cannot be judged solely by whether accreditation is awarded. It must be seen and felt in the experiences of babies and families: whether parents feel welcomed, informed and respected on the ward; whether they can participate in their baby’s care; and whether services listen and respond when families point out that things need to change.

I am really grateful to Bliss for their partnership and expertise, and to neonatal teams across Wales for their ongoing commitment. Most importantly, though, I thank the parents and families who've shared their experiences, and helped to shape this programme for the sake of other families in the future. Their honesty and insight have been invaluable, so too has been their bravery. I am indebted to them and I thank them. 

Dirprwy Lywydd, every baby that is born prematurely or is unwell when they’re born deserves the best possible care, and every family deserves to be treated with dignity and compassion.

with dignity and compassion. The progress being seen through the Bliss baby charter shows what can be achieved when families, clinicians, health boards, the third sector and government work together with a shared purpose.

Now, we remain committed to supporting neonatal services across Wales to continue this journey to deliver the highest standards of care. Our ambition is clear that neonatal services in Wales should be clinically safe and effective, compassionate and equitable, and genuinely designed around the needs of babies and their families. Diolch.

I need to declare an interest. I have a close relative who's a hospital consultant.

I welcome the opportunity to respond to the Deputy Minister's statement today, and I acknowledge that the Minister, from previous speeches in the Chamber, values the sanctity of life, and how important this is. And I want to begin by recognising the extraordinary work being carried out every day by neonatal doctors, nurses and support staff across Wales.

When a baby is born premature or seriously ill, parents find themselves in a world they never expected to enter. Instead of taking the precious baby home, they spend days, weeks, months beside an incubator. And for those families, neonatal care is not simply another NHS service. It just becomes their entire world. This is why the principles behind this baby charter are so important. Family-centred care means recognising that parents are not visitors to their own babies, they are parents, and wherever clinically possible, they should be supported to participate in baby's care and contact.

But we must make sure that today's statement represents measurable change for families rather than simply being another commitment. The Welsh Government announced funding for Bliss so that neonatal units across Wales could work towards bronze Bliss baby charter accreditation. So my first set of questions: can you tell us exactly how many neonatal units in Wales have now achieved bronze accreditation? How many have yet to achieve it? And by what date does she expect every neonatal unit in Wales to have reached that standard? Moreover, why is it the case that out of the 14 accredited units throughout the UK, not one of top standard is located in Wales? These accredited centres elsewhere are rated gold and even platinum in some cases. For a Government that talks about ambition, where is the ambition for these little ones? Can the Minister pledge that at least one neonatal unit in Wales will become gold or above, and an accredited centre, within the term? Because families should not receive one standard of family-centred care in one part of Wales and a different standard elsewhere.

And there is another issue I believe we need to urgently address, and that is keeping families together. This has highlighted the difficulties parents can face in staying overnight to be close to their sick or premature babies. Imagine giving birth, leaving the hospital without your baby, and having to travel backwards and fore, sometimes hundreds of miles every day, simply to be with them. And for families living significant distances from specialised neonatal care, that means travel costs, parking costs, food costs, loss of earnings and early maternity leave at precisely the moment when their sole concern should be their child.

You mentioned family-centred neonatal care, but it can't simply mean telling parents they are partners in their baby's care. We have to make it practically possible for them to be there. You say in the statement you are listening and responding. So my next question is: what specific action will the Welsh Government take to increase overnight accommodation for parents on neonatal units? And will the Deputy Minister commit to a clear national minimum standard so that, wherever possible, a parent is not forced to leave their sick and newborn child because there is no way for them to stay?

Finally, we need to talk about what parents experience emotionally. A neonatal admission is frightening and overwhelming. Parents need clear information. They need staff to listen to them and they need to understand what's happening to their baby and know how to participate in their care. And where they raise concerns, they need confidence that those concerns will be heard. Practices such as placing mothers on wards with mothers who've had their babies, not clearing corridors for bereaved parents—it has not changed since the 1960s.

The Government’s recent introduction 

The Government's recent introduction of Call for Concern into maternity and neonatal services is therefore welcome, but a system is only effective if families know it exists, staff understand it and parents genuinely feel able to use it. And psychological support cannot be an optional extra.

You said in the statement that care should be compassionate. Supporting the baby means supporting the family around that baby. So, does the Welsh Government have sufficient neonatal and psychological workforce capacity to deliver these family centred standards consistently, and what support is being provided to units where staffing pressures are preventing progress? And will the Deputy Minister guarantee that every neonatal family in Wales has access to proper psychological support, no matter where they live, and explain how the Government will measure whether families themselves believe that Bliss charter is actually improving the experience of neonatal care? Diolch.

Diolch, Catherine. Welcome to your role. The work that is being carried out in neonatal units across Wales is indeed, well, absolutely life-changing. I think it would do us all good to pause and reflect on the phenomenal work that is happening across Wales right at this moment to save babies' lives. So, thank you for highlighting that. As you said—I was struck by your phrase—it becomes their entire world, that unit—exactly. We need to be making sure that those units, the environment that families and that parents are in, are welcoming, that they are comfortable and that families feel that it's not a hindrance for them to be there, that they are central to the whole thing. How this is rolled out in different units will vary, because of course there are lots of different reasons why there will be local considerations. But, fundamentally, it's about making sure that parents and families feel that they are part of care, and I can go through some of the practical examples of how that can be done.

You asked me about what exactly the situation is with different units, and I'm happy to provide the current position. So, all nine neonatal units in Wales are now engaged with the process, as I said. At present, Singleton Hospital and Wrexham Maelor Hospital have achieved silver accreditation. Ysbyty Gwynedd, Ysbyty Cyffredinol Glangwili, Princess of Wales Hospital, Prince Charles Hospital, the Grange University Hospital and Ysbyty Glan Clwyd have achieved bronze accreditation. The University Hospital of Wales in Cardiff has achieved pledge status and is working towards the bronze accreditation. Obviously, this is a staged improvement programme. You asked earlier about the possibility—and I hope that this will happen, indeed—that we will be seeing units progressing to gold and platinum status as well. That has to be our ambition, because our babies deserve nothing less than excellence in this. So, yes, I will absolutely be pushing to make sure—. Obviously, this is a matter that health boards will be monitoring, but anything that we can do nationally to be making sure that excellence is pushed for at all costs, then, yes, of course that is something that we will be very keen to look into.

You mentioned the situation across the UK and that there are other places across the UK where gold and platinum have been achieved. Of course, this is a UK-wide programme. It has developed at different rates across nations, and the flip side of it, I suppose, is that all neonatal units in Wales being engaged with the programme puts us, in some ways, in a better position than other nations. But we cannot be complacent about that at all. We have to make sure that these units progress through that journey. And when a unit has had that accreditation, that doesn't mean that accreditation has to stay; they have to be continually reassessed to make sure that the improvements are continuous and that they are consistent for families.

You asked as well about keeping families together, and absolutely that is really important. I'll just share some of the practical examples of how units who have achieved the bronze accreditation and are moving further through the charter can do this. There are wards and units that have made it easier for parents to spend time with their baby with more flexible visiting arrangements, but some wards have actually introduced reclining chairs in the wards so that parents can stay as well. Absolutely, I'm really interested in the points that you made about accommodation, making that easier as well, and signposting to psychological support. All of these different components are going to be so vitally important.

You said in closing that this is only going to be effective if families know that it exists. Absolutely, because what is the point of having something that is available if it doesn't benefit the families and the parents that need it? So, we need to be making certain

So, we need to be making certain, and this needs to be constantly monitored to make sure that this isn't just something that is signposted, or that people know it's on a Post-it—. It's like the Call for Concern statement that I made a couple of weeks ago now, and those two elements are going to be working together really closely too. We have to be making sure that these environments are supportive, welcoming and lead to better care, so thank you so much.

 I'd like to thank the Deputy Minister for her statement today. I know that this is something that she cares very much about. The admission of a baby to a neonatal unit is unbearably difficult and a concerning time for any family. The specialist care provided in these units helps to ensure that babies have the best possible chance of survival and quality of life, yet parents often have to put their lives on hold during this time, impacting their income, well-being and other children in their family. The charity Bliss supports parents during this time and champions the rights of premature and sick babies. 

The Bliss Wales programme was introduced with funding from the Welsh Labour Government in 2025, and I'm really glad to hear that the Deputy Minister acknowledges the important role that this has played in improving family-centred neonatal care across Wales. It's good to see that progress has been made towards the Bliss baby charter since 2025, and it's evident that funding for the whole Bliss Wales programme is now required beyond March next year.

So, Deputy Minister, you state today that funding has been secured to continue the programme through this financial year, but we know that that's only a matter of months. Parents and health professionals want to know whether the Plaid Cymru Government will fund the Bliss Wales programme after March next year. 

Whilst positive steps have been made with the Bliss baby charter, you've outlined today that the work is not complete, and my understanding is that neonatal units at the Grange and University Hospital of Wales are both at the pledge of improvement—that's the initial stage for the Bliss baby charter—and they need support to progress. Meanwhile, the other seven neonatal units, which you've mentioned, in Wales need to be able to take action to achieve the higher levels of accreditation. So, I'd be interested to know what is being doing to share that learning about the baby charter between those neonatal units to encourage the development of best practice.

Tackling health inequalities is an important aspect of this work to ensure parity in the care received by babies and families in every neonatal unit across Wales. One particular disparity faced by families has already been mentioned, and that's overnight accommodation. Parents, of course, should be able to stay with their babies at all times of day and night, but accommodation is not routinely provided. So, I'd like to know what the Welsh Government is doing to ensure that there is suitable overnight accommodation available for parents, wherever they live.

I'd also like to mention the early conversations pilot. This is separate from the Bliss baby charter, but both are part of the Bliss Wales programme. Implementation of the early conversations pilot is underway at all three neonatal units in north Wales, with further units in the south joining the pilot for its second phase. Again, funding is required to ensure parity across Wales for babies and families.

I'm glad to hear you refer to the 'The path to safer beginnings in Wales' report again in the Siambr today. That report was commissioned by the previous Welsh Labour Government, and the voices and experiences of women and families were at the centre of that assessment. So, Deputy Minister, can you give an indication of when the recommendations of the 'The path to safer beginnings in Wales' report will be fully implemented and when can we expect more clarity around delivery timelines and transparent reporting?

You'll also be aware, Deputy Minister, that the 'The path to safer beginnings in Wales' report highlighted the dedication and professionalism of the workforce in maternity services across Wales, and I know that you are also aware that the Royal College of Midwives is among those who have identified workforce capacity as the most pressing challenge currently facing maternity services in Wales. So, can the Deputy Minister provide reassurance that targeted investment in midwifery staffing, as well as improvements in workforce planning and retention, is a priority for this Government? It would also be good to know what discussions she has had with the Cabinet Minister for Health about the current situation facing midwifery graduates since the Senedd returned from recess.

from recess. Babies in neonatal units require care from a multidisciplinary team of healthcare professionals. We also know that access to perinatal mental health and parent-infant services are vital. So, finally, will the Deputy Minister confirm today the delivery and full funding of the strategic perinatal workforce plan to ensure safe staffing levels across Wales? Diolch.

Diolch, Jayne, for those questions. I know this is something really close to your heart, as well. Indeed, as you say, and it is right to put that on the record again, the work that was undertaken by the previous Government on this was foundationally important here, and I'm really proud to be continuing with that work. I think it was an incredibly valuable foundation that was laid there. Of course, we want to go further than that.

You asked, firstly, about funding. Now, as I've set out, for the second year, there is £52,000 that's been provided to support the implementation of Bliss in health boards. In terms of future funding, that is being considered as part of the broader maternity, neonatal programme planning and spending decisions, and this is clearly doing a lot of really good work, so I would be very open-minded to that, indeed. And I think we as a Government would be very open-minded to it, because we are committed to supporting improvements in maternity and neonatal services. So, that is something that we're keeping under very close review.

In terms of what you had asked about different units and making sure that they're being supported to go further with the accreditation journey, that is something that absolutely has to be happening, because accreditation on its own is a milestone, but it's not an end point. And we need to make sure that it's a staged improvement programme, as I've said, and that's something that our NHS partners are going to be working really closely with different units, with different health boards on to support that. It's something I'm going to be keeping a really close eye on, as well.

In terms of accommodation, as Catherine raised as well, already, I want to be making sure that any family, regardless of their circumstances, will be able to be involved in their baby's care. And so, however we can be encouraging there to be initiatives to make sure that accommodation is part of this, of course it's something I'd be really interested in being involved in. And I would implore Members, if you are aware of circumstances where that has become a barrier, please, to write to me about it, because I think we need to see where—fundamental to Bliss is seeing where the gaps are, okay, so it's about what can be done in the units themselves, but it's also about wider provision. So, please write to me if you see that there are gaps like that that are emerging.

Thank you, as well, for talking about the early conversations pilots—something that I know, again, is really close to your heart. As I've confirmed before, we will be implementing 'The path to safer beginnings in Wales' report's recommendations in full and that will be over a period of time. Obviously, there are some that will have to be done at a much greater pace because of their urgency, but each of those recommendations are going to be implemented in full.

You asked about the situation with midwifery, and I really recognise the significant workforce pressures that are being experienced across midwifery, maternity, neonatal and wider children's services. This is something that the Cabinet Minister and I, each of us, are really concerned about, and it is weighing heavily on us. We are encouraging health boards to maximise all opportunities, because, of course, we expect health boards to take all reasonable steps to maintain safe standards, to support staff, to ensure that workforce planning arrangements respond to current and future service needs. It's something that we are keeping under really close review.

Finally, thank you for raising perinatal mental health. It's something that was very, very close to the heart of my predecessor in this role, Steffan Lewis. Again, if you or other Members are—. It's something I'm really passionate about—making sure that the support is there for mothers across Wales, so if you are noticing any gaps in provision, please write to me so that we can arrange— .  And I make that offer, please, to Members across the Chamber, because it's something that we have to get right. Diolch, Jayne.

Can I thank the Deputy Minister for this afternoon's statement on what is an incredibly emotive area? I welcome this statement, as we haven't really received an update on the Bliss baby charter since it was introduced in September last year. To be clear,

To be clear, my Welsh Conservative colleagues and I support the charter and its aims of improving outcomes for the most vulnerable babies all across Wales. I cannot even begin to imagine what it must be like for families having to navigate life with a premature or seriously ill baby. It must be incredibly frightening and difficult for so many, and so any action being taken to improve neonatal care in Wales will have our unwavering support. Parents should be treated as partners in their baby's care, properly informed and supported and able to spend as much time with their baby as circumstances allow.

The previous Welsh Government invested £100,000 in ensuring all neonatal units in Wales are working towards the bronze level of the Bliss baby charter, and I'm pleased to hear, as per your statement, that all units have either reached or are about to, hopefully, reach bronze, with some excelling further already. Following Jayne Bryant's question about funding, I'd like to know by what date and time will funding support from this Government be put in place to help this progress further.

Deputy Minister, as we heard earlier, this year, 'The path to safer beginnings in Wales' assessment into maternity and neonatal services was published. That piece of work identified a number of issues and challenges, including poor co-ordination between units regarding cot and maternity bed availability, uncertainty around neonatal cot configuration and even provision of transitional care and delays in transport arrangements. You confirmed that this Government would implement the assessment's recommendations, but can you please elaborate on what steps this Plaid Government has already taken in this area to date?

In particular, I would be keen to hear more about the Government's plans to implement a national maternity bed and neonatal cot finder and when families will be able to access it. The charity Bliss carried out a survey of neonatal units across Wales that found that 85 per cent of babies could not have even one parent stay in a room with them overnight. This was due to a lack of appropriate accommodation and the condition of some estates. This will have a hugely detrimental impact on this Government's ambition to deliver a more family-centred approach. So, Deputy Minister, how is this Government going to be addressing this moving forward?

Families and premature children also need support long after they have left the neonatal unit. Parents of children admitted to neonatal care are more than likely to experience mental health needs, yet less than a third of parents told the charity The Smallest Things they received formal emotional support after having left the unit. Also, just one in five parents agree that their GP understands their or their baby's needs, and a little over a third felt that their health visitors understood their and their baby's needs.

Parents cite the lack of understanding and joined-up support between health and education, so I'd like to know what action the Welsh Government is taking to ensure children born prematurely receive joined-up support following discharge from neonatal care, including appropriate sharing of their neonatal history between health visiting, early years and education services. How will they ensure professionals across these services understand the potential impact premature birth can have on learning and development and are ready to identify and meet those needs? Deputy Minister, parents should be at the heart of neonatal care, and I sincerely hope with every ounce of my being that this Welsh Government gets this important piece of work right. Thank you.

Diolch, Natasha, and as you said at the start, it is an emotive area, and I really welcome the fact that there is cross-party support for the principles here. Of course, in terms of how it is rolled out in terms of how the accreditation progresses, all of you in the Chamber will want to be as fervently as me checking to see that that continues to progress, because this is something, as I say, we can't afford not to get right. That was an awkwardly phrased sentence, but this is something that is so important.

As you said earlier too, I can't begin to imagine what it is like. There will be people in this Chamber and there will be people watching who have been through this. It is incumbent on all of us to make sure to take every action so that some of the most difficult moments in a parent's life will be filled with compassion, with love, with support, with practical actions. There's nothing that can make that magically better, but each of the—. I'll go through again some of the steps that hospitals can take in supporting skin-to-skin care, which is sometimes known as kangaroo care—I love that—it can help support bonding, improving parental confidence, contribute positively to a baby's development. It's making sure that there's support there for feeding, for comfort care, for routine care so that when the transition happens and when a baby is able to go home, the parents can feel supported and can feel more ready and more confident that they will know what steps they need to take every day to take care of their precious baby.

In terms of communication, regular updates, you had raised again about accommodation. There's a reason why the same themes are coming up time and again. These are the things that are most vitally important to parents across Wales. We cannot afford to have a situation where families are facing these additional barriers. 

these additional barriers. So, again, please. I would ask Members; when you come across examples, if there are examples of where this is not working well, please tell me so that we can see what else can be done with this.

You asked as well about future funding. Now, again, it is committed for this financial year. My colleague the finance Minister is in her place. I will not incur her wrath by speculating about future budgets, but it is something that we want to take every—. We need, of course, to see how this works—[Interruption.] [Laughter.] Yes, I name-checked you there. We need to make sure that we see how this roll-out keeps progressing. We need to make sure, to see—. Again, there will be variations in different localities. I want to empower these units to be able to keep going on this journey on their own. We need to make sure—

—that they are empowered—

—and that they have those tools at their disposal to be able to do this. But of course, if we see that there is a need for us to consider that further, of course that's something we'd be open to. I can't know exactly how this is going to roll out in the future, but it's something, of course, we're going to be keeping really closely in mind.

In terms, again, of the psychological support, that is really, really vitally important. I've lost my place. I don't know which were your points and which were Jayne's. But in terms of making sure that when parents leave the units as well, that there is specialist psychological care available for them, and this will be true regardless of what has happened with their baby. It can be a deeply traumatic—I can only imagine—experience for parents to come close to losing a baby as well, so they will need that wraparound care, and there's fantastic work that is happening across Wales. It's something that we really need to make sure that we're getting right.

Thank you for that.

If I have inadvertently missed one of your questions, please could you write to me? I didn't mean to. [Interruption.] Okay.

Minister, I have nine Members who want to contribute and I have eight and a half minutes remaining. So, I would ask for your patience. I want to try and include everyone and I ask Members to be succinct, please.

Okay, and for me to be succinct too, I imagine.

I wouldn't go as far as to tell the Minister that, but—. Sara Crowley. 

Diolch. Following on from psychological support, this question will be timely. Deputy Minister, I welcome the progress being made towards the Bliss baby charter, but family-centred neonatal care can only succeed if the specialist workforce is there to support families when they need it most.

In my constituency of Pontypridd Cynon Merthyr, the experience of Chloe and her son Theo illustrates why this is so important. After Theo was admitted to neonatal intensive care in Merthyr Tydfil shortly after birth, Chloe spoke about the fear, anxiety and trauma that followed, and how those feelings stayed with her long after Theo came home.

She has said that access to specialist psychological support could have helped her progress that experience and lessen its lasting impact on her family. Bliss has found a 62 per cent shortfall in neonatal allied health professionals, psychology and pharmacy staffing across Wales, with a shortfall in psychology provision standing at 90 per cent, the second highest in the UK.

Given that Cwm Taf Morgannwg University Health Board currently has no neonatal psychologist provision in either Merthyr or Bridgend, what specific action is the Welsh Government taking to address these workforce gaps, and will you, Deputy Minister, commit to ensuring that psychological support is a central and properly funded part of delivering the Bliss baby charter in Wales? Diolch o galon.

Sorry, but awkwardly with the Chamber, I have to have my back to you when I'm answering you. I thank you, Sara, for sharing Chloe and Theo's story with the Chamber. We all know that neonatal admission can have that really lasting psychological effect and impact on parents and families. As has been raised by, I think every Member so far in the Chamber, psychological support is a really vitally important component. The Welsh Government—. That's why we've commissioned an independent evaluation of the Onnen service. That includes recommendations relating to neonatal workforce models, the contribution of specialist allied health professionals, including psychological services. That evaluation will help inform our understanding of current provision and future workforce requirements across Wales.

And through the Bliss baby charter,

And through the Bliss baby charter, we need to be looking again—this is something that many Members have raised—about the wider needs of families, emotional well-being, making sure that people are signposted to support. Workforce deployment, of course, remains an operational matter for health boards, but we will continue to work closely with NHS Wales, with health boards, and with partner organisations, including Bliss, to better understand again where those gaps are to make sure that we make the improvements that we have to and that we need to.

I will declare an interest, as my family and I have been affected deeply by this very issue over the past seven days, and continue to be so. Now, I'm sure Members would also agree with me how tragic it is that North Wales Police have been in touch with us as Members that a baby's body has been found on the shoreline near Bangor, in my constituency. There are calls for Mum to come forward. Please contact North Wales Police or the Betsi board. They will give you the support that you very much need at this moment in time.

Now, I'd like to thank you, Delyth, for bringing the update on the Bliss baby charter, and thank every single person that's involved in trying to improve neonatal care here in Wales. The core principles are family-centred care and known as the seven standards, with further standards being published as we go along. Specialist services and staff, benchmarking, unit information and support for families—the Bliss baby charter is now a tool that helps to examine the procedures, practices and environment of a neonatal unit. Now, whilst this is good, there is still a long way to go. And I have to say it now, being as I've declared an interest, I want to put on record my deep thanks, and that of my family, to Alder Hey, and to Ysbyty Gwynedd who recognised the emergency. We need that over-the-border continuation of fantastic neonatal care.

Janet, I'm sorry to push for a question.

Yes, okay. The model is about no two births are the same. We need this individualised care process. And bear in mind that, sometimes, it isn't mum and baby, it can be a mum and twins or triplets. So, all I would ask you, Deputy Minister, will you commit to ensuring that you work, as far as I am concerned, with the Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board and the other health boards to establish a comprehensive review of its maternity services and neonatal care, and ensure that there is absolute implementation of individualised care plans? Because no two births are the same and no two babies are the same. Diolch.

Janet, I am so sorry for the experience that you have just talked about in your family, and I think the thoughts of everyone in the Chamber will be with your family. I really hope everything will be all right.

And you also had mentioned the incredibly distressing incident that's occurred at Bangor pier. I echo what you'd said. It is an extremely sad, extremely distressing situation. My thoughts, and I think the thoughts again of everyone in the Chamber, are going to be with everyone who is affected by this. It is the subject of an ongoing police investigation, so I wouldn't be able to comment further on the specific circumstances, but the Welsh Government is being kept informed as the situation develops, and our immediate focus is on supporting everyone affected and allowing the investigating agencies the time and the space to establish the facts of an incredibly distressing incident.

And I agree with you. Yes, in terms of Bliss, there is a long way still for us to go, of course, and I am determined that we have to see continued progress, and I and we will work with all health boards to do everything we can to make sure of that.

Thank you, Deputy Minister. I welcome the progress being made to the baby Bliss charter today, but I particularly want to highlight the challenges faced by families in rural Wales. You have said in your statement today that individual services should focus on the changes that make the greatest difference locally. Long before the current charter programme, the neonatal team at Glangwili Hospital recognised the challenges of rurality, lack of transport, and the financial pressures facing families travelling backwards and forwards for appointments. They responded by changing the way they worked, bringing specialist appointments together to make things easier for families. And where families couldn't get to the hospital because of rurality, 

get to the hospital because of rurality, transport, financial pressures, the neonatal team would actually go out and see them at home.

You mentioned then earlier about what happens after they leave, which I think is just as important. They bridge the gap between hospital and home: such things as the dietician, occupational therapy, physio, speech and language—all of these are really important afterwards. They actually went on to win the Bliss project of the year award, which I think is really good for such a rural hospital.

So, Minister, almost £1,000 was invested in this national programme in 2025. As the programme is still in its early stages, how will you make sure that good practice, like Glangwili's, is identified, shared, and actually implemented across Wales rather than simply focusing on whether units meet the chartered standard? Diolch.

Diolch, Claire, for that, and indeed, in terms of the fact that we need to make sure that the challenges that are going to be there for longer travel times for rural communities, as I said earlier, no two units will be the same, no two localities will be the same, and equity is a really important component of this, making sure that the different needs of different communities, and different communities within those communities too, are going to be addressed, and again, looking at socioeconomic disadvantage as well, looking at longer travel distances, looking at ethnic minority communities, looking at different languages, different accessibility requirements, accommodation—all of these components need to be working and need to be available to units where they're needed.

In terms of celebrating the highlights, as you have just done, I think that that is fantastic, and thank you so much for putting that on the record. We need to be making sure that, again—and this theme keeps coming up—accreditation is not an end point. The way that Bliss is structured encourages units to be progressing further through, and again, accreditation, it's not an end point, and also, if progress isn't sustained, then it can be lost. So, we need to make sure that this isn't just making sure that we get the base level of accreditation. But I want to be in a Wales where every unit is excelling, and, of course, that's what we should be aiming for. Of course it is.

Diolch. We are over time. If I can just remind Members, please try and keep it to the time allotted, which is one minute. Mair Rowlands.

Thank you very much, Llywydd, and thank you, Deputy Minister. I would like to echo the words of Janet Finch-Saunders and the Deputy Minister about the very sad news about the death of a baby in Bangor, which is a great blow to the community. I would also declare an interest, as this is based on personal experience.

I welcome the focus on family-centred neonatal care and the progress that has been made to the Bliss baby charter. This is a very personal matter for me. My first son was born prematurely after 32 weeks, and he spent almost a month in the infant specialist care unit at Ysbyty Gwynedd. We received exceptional care from the staff there, and I will always be grateful for that.

The experience also highlighted the challenges that families face, including my partner still having to work during that period, and also, because of the aftercare that I received, I didn't get to see my son for a number of hours, and I was in a ward with a number of other mothers with their newborns with my son in an incubator in the specialist unit.

But one of the most important things for us was to be included in our son's care. The staff treated us as part of the team around him, and that reflects the principles of the charter. That includes things such as being able to feed him through a tube and the skin-to-skin element, and there was accommodation available there for us to stay, but maybe the resources weren't the best they could have been—[Interruption.]

Mair, could we get the question, please?

Sorry. So, how will the Government ensure that the best practices are shared and incorporated consistently in all neonatal units across Wales, and how will you ensure that the experiences and views of parents are collected and used regularly to inform further improvements to neonatal services in Wales? Thank you.

Thank you very much, Mair, for sharing your own story. I'm delighted to hear that the care that you and your family received was so supportive of your needs. There are a number of challenges that you've referred to there in terms of language of choice, the way your partner had to continue to work, and I can only imagine how difficult that must have been, so I'm grateful to you for sharing that with us.

with us. But as you said, when this works well, families and parents will be included in the care of their child. What we need to do is ensure consistency in this area and ensure that the experiences of families across Wales are just as positive because family experience will shape how this works. We have to listen to families and we have to take that feedback from families when problems occur in order to ensure that processes, systems and people learn from those experiences because every family should have the same care. Thank you, Mair.

Deputy Minister, for most women, giving birth is supposed to be the moment when they finally hold and care for the baby they have carried for months. But when a baby is born premature or is seriously unwell, that moment can instead mean an incubator, alarms, wires and the mother suddenly feeling that everyone else knows how to care for her baby better than she does. A mother should never feel like a visitor at her own baby's bedside.

So, I welcome the progress being made through the Bliss baby charter because family-centred care must mean mothers and families being listened to, informed and genuinely involved in their baby's care, but Bliss themselves tell us that there are main areas of neonatal care and family support desperately needing attention. So, Deputy Minister, beyond accreditation and targets, how will you measure what really matters—whether mothers across neonatal units in Wales actually feel supported, involved and able to be a mother to their new baby?

Diolch, Cristiana, for that, and for what you described in terms of the expectation and the hope that every mother will have—that this will be the moment that she has dreamt of—and the gap between that and what some mothers then go through and the really desperately painful reality that they would have to face. And what Mair had described a moment ago as well, about their baby being in an incubator on another ward and being surrounded by other mothers with their own babies, and emphasising that gap. I think that the design of wards is really fundamental here and having that compassion built into how they are designed. Absolutely no parent should ever feel like a visitor in their child's care, in their baby's care.

As I've said earlier, this will only be deemed to be successful by me or by anyone in this Chamber if it leads to families feeling welcomed. And I know that's something very difficult. Of course, they are things that we can measure, they are the practical things that I've set out about how we can—. And it's very specific; I think there's more than 120 accreditation criteria that Bliss go through, but it's also about making sure that the experience of families has materially changed and that families feel part of care. So, it's, of course, about the criteria that you can put down on a piece of paper, but it's more than that too. Thank you so much.

Talking of babies and local support. Deputy Minister, Cerebral Palsy Cymru is based in my constituency, and I recently had the privilege of visiting the centre in Llanishen and seeing first-hand the specialist support that they provide to children and families. And I've since received a really moving letter from Glenys Evans, one of the founding parents. Thirty-seven years ago, Glenys and a small group of parents helped establish this charity because they wanted better specialist therapy for their children. Her son, Thomas, who has cerebral palsy, is now 42, and she remains just as passionate as she was then about making sure that the next generation gets the very best start in life.

Now, this is also an organisation whose values have previously been recognised by the Welsh Government, including receiving capital support towards the purchase of their current home in 2019. Now, Glenys has raised concerns with me about the charity's financial future—and changing health board commissioning arrangements specifically. And, at the heart of this, I think, is something that we've all really shared here today, and it's really important—about early intervention and that specialist support can make that real difference to children and their families.

So, Deputy Minister, building on the previous Welsh Labour Government support that was there, how can the new Government work with health boards and Cerebral Palsy Cymru to secure sustainable, equitable access to specialist cerebral palsy support for children and families across Wales regardless of where they live?

Thank you so much for raising that really, really important point and for sharing those stories as well, because it is by sharing lived experiences that we need to see where things are going well and where people's lives have been materially improved. So, thank you so much for sharing that.

Evidently—. And I know that you'll appreciate

I know that you'll appreciate that commissioning is for local health boards, but of course it's something that we're keeping a really close eye on, because Cerebral Palsy Cymru is doing such fantastic work and changing people's lives. So, it's something that we're keeping a really close eye on, and I really value the fact that you've raised that today in the Chamber. Thank you so much.

It's clear, isn't it, that there is support for the charter across the Chamber, and I'm pleased to say, of course, that the Liberal Democrats here in Wales also support it. May I just ask: how will you ensure that there is a specialist workforce available to deliver this charter? Because you've mentioned providing services through the medium of Welsh and bilingually, and I'm sure it must be difficult to try and recruit and retain staff across the workforce. So, do you have a plan in place to ensure that there is staff available in this area and that they can be retained and recruited and receive the support that they need?

Thank you, Jane, and first of all, thank you for your support. It does raise my heart to hear that everyone in this Chamber has an interest in areas of this plan, and we all want to ensure a better future for our babies. So, thanks for that.

In terms of a specialist workforce and ensuring that the linguistic skills that you mentioned are available, this is something for the health boards to ensure themselves. But I think that that does raise some important questions, so I'd ask you if you would be willing to write to me, maybe we could have a further conversation about that, because that's something—. I'm trying to think about how to say this in English.

I want to reassure myself that every step is being taken—

—with that one. So, I'd appreciate if you could write to me, and perhaps we can have a further conversation. As I said, this is an issue for the health boards, but all of us would want to ensure that every action is taken. So, thank you.

I've been contacted by a constituent, Alexia, who has bravely given me permission to share her own personal story. Precious Maya was born at 29-plus -three weeks last year after fears for Alexia's life. Born on the sub-regional neonatal intensive care centre at Glan Clwyd, the care Maya and her family received was, in Alexia's words, 'more than they could have asked for'. Although living near to the hospital, they were offered accommodation, allowing them to stay close to their daughter, alleviating the stress of travelling and the financial burden of paying for accommodation. However, Alexia is acutely aware that this experience is not typical, and research from Bliss shows that, on average, for every 10 babies on neonatal wards, there is only accommodation for one family.

I really, really welcome the eagerness to work with Bliss in terms of family accommodation, but would the Government commit to looking into a review of the current provision of overnight accommodation for parents of babies receiving care, and work with local health boards and Bliss to improve accommodation sufficiency, so that no parent is separated from their baby due to financial constraints?

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Becca, and I'm sorry again I have to have my back to you when I'm answering, because of where the microphone is. I really appreciate how Members have shared both their own experiences with me and with the Chamber today, and also the experiences of constituents. I really am grateful to all of those constituents too for being willing to have their stories shared. I know that that is no small thing, and you have enriched our understanding, you have enriched our proceedings here this afternoon, and we are all so grateful to you, and we all send our very best wishes to you.

In terms of Alexia and Maya's experiences, of course parents need to remain close to their baby, and that is a key principle of everything we've been talking about. It's a key principle of the Bliss baby charter. Of course, access to accommodation is something that has come up from a number of Members: how it can vary. Claire had raised this as well. It can vary across different services, different parts of Wales, it can create that additional stress and financial pressure for families when they least can cope with that.

As I say, the neonatal units are being encouraged to review how they are supporting family presence and participation in care, including practical issues like accommodation, particularly, again, families who need to travel that extra distance. We as a Government will continue to work with Bliss and health boards and families to understand where those barriers remain. Again I encourage Members to write to me if you see those gaps emerging and where further improvements might be needed, because no family should face any avoidable obstacle at this most difficult time.

And finally, Minister, Darren Millar.

Diolch. Just a couple of questions, if I may. Can I thank you for your statement today? I fully appreciate the ambition

appreciate the ambition that the Welsh Government's got to make sure that all of the centres that we have meet the Bliss standards. One of the challenges we have in north Wales is that we don't have a level 3 neonatal service; we have a sub-regional neonatal intensive care centre. It does some phenomenal work but we're still having to transfer babies over the border, generally to Arrowe Park Hospital. What work will the Welsh Government do to review the status of that sub-regional neonatal intensive care centre, with a view to potentially raising the standard to make it a level 3 provision for north Wales and, indeed, get people transferred in from over the border rather than the opposite way out? And I would say that it's got some excellent accommodation on site as well at Dawn Elizabeth House, Tŷ Croeso at Glan Clwyd Hospital; a fantastic service.

And secondly, Minister, one of the issues that you and I have visited many times in this Chamber in the past is this issue of baby loss certificates. We know the trauma that people face when they lose a baby and sadly, at the moment, Wales is the only nation within the UK where these certificates are not available. That's causing a huge amount of unnecessary trauma, and Sands, Bliss and a whole host of other organisations are calling for us to get these things sorted as soon as we can. Can you give us an update?

Diolch, Darren. Those are really important questions. In terms of the situation in north Wales and still having to transfer babies across the border, that is something that my colleague Mabon would be leading on. But I'm really happy to have a conversation with him about that because, obviously, that's something that we need to be taking very, very seriously. So, I'm very happy to take that up with Mabon as the Cabinet Minister.

On baby loss certificates, I'm really glad that this has come up. It's something that, as you know, I feel very passionately about. I want very much for us to be in a position in Wales where we can deliver bilingual baby loss certificates in a way that is safe, in a way that is sustainable. We are looking into how this can be done at the moment. We're in a different situation from England or Scotland, because we don't have our own national records service. And Northern Ireland has decided to go down a different route, where they're not having the same layers of verification.

And I want to make sure, and officials want to make sure—and this is what we're looking into—that there wouldn't be unintended consequences from doing something like that. We want to make sure that baby loss certificates are delivered in a way so that the right people are getting the right certificates because, of course, that is so sensitive. But it is something I pledge to you, I promise, I care deeply about. And so, it is something we are looking at very carefully and very urgently. So, diolch, Darren. I really appreciate that you brought that up. 

Thank you, Cabinet Minister.

I'm sorry that we've gone over.

It's fine. Thank you to everyone for their patience. 

Everyone's questions were important. 

Exactly. Everyone's questions are always important, but thank you for extending that to an hour.

Item 8, the next item, has been withdrawn.

So, before I bring today's proceedings to a close, I have the result of the secret ballot for Chair of the Legislation Committee. The number of votes for Cai Parry-Jones Jones were 15, Cristiana Emsley 52, abstentions seven, and spoiled ballots 0. So, I declare that Cristiana Emsley is elected Chair of the Legislation Committee. Congratulations. And that brings today's proceedings to a close. Thank you.