Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru

A stable home isn't a luxury, it's the foundation of a secure life, and that's why this Welsh Labour Government has committed £2 billion this Senedd term to deliver 20,000 new low-carbon social homes. Now, in Swansea East, that is 700 new social homes, and 1,500 families achieving home ownership—real measurable progress. And we didn't slow down; we sped up. This Welsh Labour Government is proud to be driving the most ambitious social housing programme in our nation's history.

Thank you for that answer, First Minister. I'm asking for a review of housing availability in Swansea. This review needs to identify the number of long-term empty properties, including flats above business premises—I define a long-term empty property as one that has been empty for five years, and those properties I was walking past empty at the last election, I'm likely to be walking past empty at the next election; the number of second homes—the ability to speak Welsh does not make having a second home acceptable, as one of the people in Swansea told me; the creation of an Airbnb list, working towards licensing Airbnb, and for their identity to be controlled in the same way as houses in multiple occupation; and, finally, social housing availability. Yes, some progress has been made, but we need to have more progress on social housing, and we need to increase the number of properties that councils have to rent.

Thanks very much. It is up to local authorities to assess the housing needs of their populations, and, obviously, that needs to take account of demographics. And, as I say, what we're trying to do is to make sure that we focus on the needs of the people who need social housing. That's why we've invested quite so much money. 

What we have seen, as you suggest, is a huge number of houses that have been converted into Airbnbs, and that's why one of the things that we're doing is introducing a mechanism to make sure that people have to register if they want to introduce this into their homes. We've got a suite of complementary measures, and, also, you'll be aware that there are 20 local authorities who have already introduced charging on a long-term empty property premium—20 of them are already doing this.

You've said, First Minister, that you would hit the promise that you made in your manifesto of 20,000 new homes for social rent by the election. Will you, and if you will, why does Audit Wales think you won't?

Thanks very much. It's true that we're very proud of the fact that we delivered nearly 9,000 homes for rent in the first three years. Now, we know that it's likely to speed up towards the end of the process, because it takes a long time to build a house. You can't just click your fingers and see things come overnight. So, we're confident that we will see a massive increase in the number. We'll get to or near to the 20,000 by the end of next year. So, there's a huge amount of work being put into this, and that's despite the fact that when we announced that target, we were coming out of COVID, we had massive inflation, and we've seen an exodus of builders leave as a result of Brexit. So, all of those things have led to difficulties in us reaching that target, but we are going to come very close, if not hit that target, by the end of next year.

Thanks very much. Our focus has been on social housing, where we have, obviously, more control. But, what we have seen is over 16,000 private sector homes being completed since 2021. The recent house building statistics don't include information from all private approved inspectors. We are likely to see an undercount in terms of new dwelling starts and completions across all tenures.

As welcome as all of that is, we know that the UK Government continues to spend eye-watering sums on major rail projects, such as HS2—I think £66 billion is where they're at now—£7.6 billion on East West Rail, and tens of billions more spent on Northern Powerhouse Rail. Yet, all of these, as we know, are designated as England-and-Wales projects. So, Wales is helping to pay for all of it, despite not a single metre of that track coming to our country. Let's put that in perspective. The Welsh Government has rightly invested £1 billion, for example, in the south Wales metro, yet that is still less than the cost of one single, solitary viaduct as part of the HS2 scheme. The Colne valley viaduct has cost an eye-watering £1.2 billion just by itself. So, given the persistent inequality in rail funding and the absence of real investment commitments behind many of the programmes, such as network north Wales, isn't it time to be honest with the people of Wales and admit that what we currently have is not much more than a wish list, really? It's certainly not a properly funded plan, and we know that that won't change until Wales gets fair funding and stops being short-changed by Westminster.

Well, we'll always fight for fair funding for Wales, and we'll always make sure that we make the case. We do think that the additional investment, the £445 million, should represent just the first step towards addressing the historical underfunding of rail in Wales. You know as well as I do that you can't click your fingers and make these things happen overnight. It takes a long time to get through planning, to make sure that you're doing the right thing, and that they're all connected. But what I can tell you is, in relation to north Wales and network north Wales, which was only launched in May, we've already invested £13.5 million to kick-start that delivery. What we've got at the heart of that will be the north Wales metro service, and that will have a new direct rail link between Wrexham and Liverpool. I think that will change the opportunities for people. As I say, we are going to increase the services on the north Wales main line by 50 per cent. The comprehensive spending review did include some essential funding for track improvement at Padeswood, and that is the first step towards improving services between Wrexham and Liverpool. We know we've got a long way to go with this. We know that, when we are given responsibility, we can deliver when we've got the powers in our own hands. If you look at what we've delivered with the south Wales metro, £800 million was invested, transforming the way that our rail network in Wales is used. We're really pleased that we have seen at least a fifth more people using our rail in Wales than we saw before that investment went in.

Thank you, diolch, Llyr, for raising this, because, for over a decade now, north Wales has been promised a north Wales metro. The £2.1 billion allocated to transform our railway networks is welcome, but it does fall short of what is needed to complete the works. We know £1.1 billion has been spent on the south Wales metro and 36 tram-trains have been stationed in Taff's Well. You just said, First Minister, that next May there will be an increase on the main line—big promises for next May. You may not even be here or your party in Government after May, so I'm not sure you should really be making promises for after next May. North Wales has frequently been left behind, even the Secretary of State for Wales, Jo Stevens, has cast doubt over your own funding for the electrification of the north Wales line, which was a commitment by our UK Conservative Government. This, along with a lack of HS2 funding, should rightly be allocated to Wales. Does the Cabinet Secretary—First Minister, even—agree with me that funding should be provided by both the Welsh and UK Governments? Now, you were all talk before the last election that the UK Government should be doing this. You're not doing it. When are you going to start? And can I have an update on the north Wales metro? Diolch.

I can't believe you're throwing stones at us in relation to electrification of the north Wales main line. It is absolutely shocking. You also said that you were going to electrify the track to Swansea. What happened to that? Where has that gone? So, don't come and throw stones at me for something that you claimed you were going to deliver and did not deliver in your 14 years in power. What I can tell you is that Transport for Wales has achieved the greatest improvement in punctuality in the UK between April and June, and, during that period, 84 per cent of our trains ran on time. I was very pleased to hear, I think it was the Cabinet Secretary for Transport, the other day, saying that that represents a better punctuality rate than they have in Germany. So, that is something to be proud of.

I was very pleased to attend and speak at the network north Wales launch that took place in my constituency at Wrexham University, as you say, in May of this year. The exciting plans that were unveiled then will transform the travel network right across our region. As we approach the six-month milestone since the launch, I am aware that more new trains have been arriving and probably the majority of journeys undertaken by train now are on those new trains. Another goal was to double the much-needed train frequency between Wrexham and Chester, and I was very pleased to hear you say in your initial answer to Llyr that that will be happening this month. But could you also please provide more detail and outline when you believe other upgrades will come into force?

Thanks very much. This does make a difference to people's lives. People need to feel like they can connect. We need to give them options to not use their own cars, and that's what we're trying to do here. It will be critical, when the new bus Bill comes in, that there will be more of an opportunity for local government to determine the routes that people go on, to make sure that they are reflective of the kind of routes that people want to travel on, and make sure that we get to communities that, perhaps, currently are not served. So, when it comes to what we're going to do in future, there's a whole raft of plans. As you know, at the heart of this is that direct rail link between Wrexham and Liverpool. That Padeswood part of it is absolutely critical. So, getting on with that will be really important. I do think that it's probably worth mentioning that the £800 million of investment in new trains is making a difference—people are noticing it. That's what you get when, actually, you put a Welsh Labour Government in charge of an area where we do take it seriously, we look to the long term, and it is making a difference.

I looked at the network north Wales plans online and saw the target dates over the next 10 years of the multimillion pound investment, which is really useful to see and measure them by. I was also pleased to see the new lift installed at Flint—a £5.5 million investment. It's one of the busiest stations in north Wales—just opened. I'm looking forward to other station improvements with the roll-out of more carriages as well. Bus transport is also part of the plans. Frequency and connectivity is also raised with me so often. So, can you provide more detail on how that will be improved, going forward? Thank you.

Well, thanks very much. And you're quite right that what we're looking at here is a long-term project. That is why you need to hold your nerve on these things, and that's why I'm very pleased that former Government Ministers have done just that—they've said they're going to invest. There is a real temptation, when you've got such pressures on you from all directions, to switch direction halfway through a project. That didn't happen under this Government, and we are seeing the fruits of those decisions now in our communities.

You're quite right that part of what what we're very keen to do here is to make sure that what we're looking at is accessible travel. So, lifts are critical for people who maybe have disabilities. But the other thing I want to emphasise is the importance of the £1 bus fare that has just been introduced. This is something that the Liberal Democrat Member was keen to make sure that we introduced as well, and we are seeing a difference. That is being hugely appreciated by young people across this country, and, obviously, we're hoping that that will be expanded now, from November, so that even younger children can benefit from that £1 pilot programme.

Diolch, Llywydd. First Minister, last week, on Yom Kippur, we saw an atrocious, murderous, barbaric antisemitic attack in Manchester, at the Heaton Park synagogue. And, of course, today marks the second anniversary of the atrocities of the 7 October massacre in Israel, carried out by Hamas terrorists. The Jewish community, understandably, here in Wales, and across the UK, is fearful of yet further attacks, and they feel intimidated and hurt by the disrespectful behaviour of some terrorist-supporting protesters who continue to fuel hatred on our streets. Will you join me today in condemning those who are taking part in such protests?

Look, I think we've got to use extreme sensitivity on this day of all days. We remember that, two years ago, Hamas attacked innocent civilians in Israel. The consequences for them and their families were devastating, and there are still people being held hostage to this day. I hope you agree with me that the efforts to try and break the deadlock in relation to that are something that should be welcomed. But, obviously, there were devastating consequences for the Palestinian state as well. The Manchester attack was sickening. It is something I hope we all condemn. I was pleased to be able to speak to Rabbi Rose at the Cardiff synagogue on the weekend, and to get a Government update on the situation. Yom Kippur is the most holy day for the Jewish community. I think that it is important that we all, as politicians, appeal for calmness and for kindness, and to make sure that we stand together with our communities across the nation and calm the temperature down on this. It is our responsibilities as leaders within our communities to make sure that we are appealing for people to calm down and not to raise the temperatures at a really sensitive time.

I would agree with you, First Minister. We need to see an end to that war that has been ongoing for far too long, the release of all hostages and a long and lasting peace. But I am a little bit disappointed and sad that I didn't feel that you gave an answer to the question that I posed. I also met with Jewish community leaders last week and I met with others today as well. They are acutely aware that they could easily have been the victims of an attack. It's the grace of God, basically, that prevented a similar attack taking place in somewhere like Manchester. The Jewish community shouldn't have to live in fear. They're fed up of hate-filled protests on our streets. The UK Prime Minister, of course, and the Home Secretary have called for protests to be called off today. I agree with them. But you haven't. So, can you tell us, will you call for protesters to stay at home and not be on our streets, on today of all days?

I think it's important that we support people's rights to protest. I think that's part of who we are as a democratic nation. But I do think that there are times when you need to be sensitive, and I think today is a day when you need to be sensitive.

And part of that sensitivity, of course, should be not protesting on a day like this, which is marking this terrible anniversary for the Jewish community in Israel and around the world. I must say that I'm still disappointed that I haven't heard a straight answer to that question.

First Minister, words are very easy for all of us. It's very easy for us to say that we condemn attacks, very easy for us to say that we don't want to see antisemitism or any kind of religious hatred in our communities. We all would say those things. But the Jewish community in Wales, they want justice and they want action, and they tell me that the rising tide of antisemitism is an issue that isn't yet being tackled sufficiently across our country. I was cited examples of antisemitic graffiti not being removed for weeks after being reported in some of our towns and communities, allegations of schools using what are questionable materials when trying to educate people about the conflict in the middle east, and people being fearful about how they might be treated by healthcare professionals in our NHS who've made antisemitic statements and posts online. People shouldn’t have to put up with those things. We clearly need to make sure that those things are addressed. What specific actions is the Welsh Government taking to address some of these concerns to make sure that we can all achieve what I know is everyone's goal in this room and this Chamber, and that is the elimination of this sort of hatred across our country?

Let me be clear: antisemitism is not acceptable, and we want to make sure that people understand that message loud and clear across our nation. I'm not interested in dividing our communities; I'm interested in bringing people together. I'd like to thank the police for their efforts on the weekend in making sure that that community, particularly in Cardiff and Swansea, felt that they did have the support that they needed. I was pleased to be able to speak to Rabbi Rose, and I have ensured since then that—. At the beginning of the term, the Welsh Government wrote to the directors of education to highlight the rise in tension within our communities and to make sure that this was an issue that is addressed within our classrooms.

I know that, like me, the First Minister will be eager to ensure that we strike the right balance between liberty and security at this time of heightened tensions, but, over the weekend, the UK Home Secretary announced that police will be given greater powers to restrict protests by allowing them to consider the cumulative impact of repeated demonstrations. I find this deeply worrying. Plaid Cymru believes that peaceful protest is a fundamental right that must be protected. Will the First Minister confirm that she agrees too with that principle?

I agree absolutely that the right to protest is a fundamental principle within our society.

Thank you for the response. And of course, we should add—and I'm sure we'd both add—that anyone inciting hatred or causing intimidation should absolutely feel the full force of the law. But the Home Secretary appears to be threatening a blanket punishment of all protesters due to the behaviour of a small minority. Now, I'm afraid that any attempt by the UK to curtail this right is a first step on a slippery slope that will see free speech becoming a little less free. Civil rights organisations and voices from across the political spectrum, including Labour MPs, have warned of the possible unintended consequences. There's a real risk here that these ill-thought-out powers could prevent entirely justifiable protests in the future. And whilst policing is still a reserved matter for the time being, public bodies under devolved powers have a role to play too in facilitating protests, for example, so there's a potential impact on them, and of course it will impact the right of every Welsh citizen. So, can the First Minister confirm if she had been made aware of the Home Secretary's intentions and what conversations have taken place between Welsh Government and the Home Office about how these new powers will practically impact the right to protest in Wales?

Thanks very much. It is, of course, the UK Government's responsibility to lead in this area. I cannot, every week, come here to speak on behalf of the Home Secretary. No, she didn't inform me in advance; I wouldn't expect her to. I don't tell her what's going on in Wales, either, in advance. That's the nature of the devolution settlement.

I didn't expect a dismissive response. It was a genuine question, and I do think that this has an impact on public bodies in Wales.

But this also highlights again Welsh Government's short-sightedness in scrapping plans for a third bridge in 2023. Now we have to make the case once again for a new bridge, but let's at the very least take some measures. I've long advocated a three-lane system, for example. So, will this latest development prompt the Welsh Government to take this issue seriously, and introduce measures to improve resilience across the Menai strait, or will the Labour Government's legacy be one of neglecting the vital infrastructure that should keep Wales moving?

I understand the frustrations of people in sir Fôn over the weekend; I know it was a massive inconvenience to people. But, obviously, we won't apologise for putting safety first; that is always going to be our priority. This is a 200-year-old bridge. There was extensive work on it in 2022, as you're aware. The responsibility for maintenance of the bridge is a UK highways responsibility, and they made it clear that they wanted to restrict the use to vehicles under 3 tonnes. Can I just make it clear that this Welsh Government has never ruled out a third crossing on Anglesey? But, clearly, we would have to find a huge amount of money for that, and, clearly, that is something where priorities need to be made.

The integrity of our democracy is non-negotiable. That's why we're working with the UK security Minister on the defending democracy taskforce. In Wales, we've gone further, shutting out foreign money through our Elections and Elected Bodies (Wales) Act 2024, and just this month we saw the former Welsh Reform leader stand in the Old Bailey admitting to taking Russian bribes. That's not just corruption, it's a flashing warning sign. Whilst Labour will always defend our Senedd, we'll always keep our democracy safe.

Nathan Gill's taking of Russian bribes was obviously some time ago, but, unfortunately, that problem has not gone away. Elon Musk is still piling money into social media, and, whether they're American, Russian or Australian billionaires, they own most of the methods of communications and are endeavouring to influence the way we run our country, whether it's telling people that millionaires are leaving the country because they don't want to pay their fair share of tax, which is absolutely untrue, or whether it's misinformation going on that is designed to set one community against another in our midst. What discussions have the Welsh Government had to make Ofcom a proper regulator and not a paper tiger, to double down on this information that is poisoning our communities?

Thanks very much. The Welsh Government recognise the importance of Ofcom in particular in terms of its role in preserving the integrity of what we get to read and see online. They've had an expanded range of duties and powers to hold online services to account. It's not just about foreign interference; it's also about online safety. I think it's probably worth highlighting the fact that Reform, the Reform Party, has vowed to repeal the Online Safety Act 2023 after regulators began to enforce its new age-verification powers this summer. I am really concerned about this. What kind of political movement sees age checks for pornography as an attack on freedom? I'm really pleased that Ofcom is taking this seriously. There are new powers and they are enforcing them. I would not want to see that repealed, and I don't think the majority of people in Wales will want to see that. Therefore, I would ask them to look at the detail of the very rare policies that actually do exist in Reform's armoury; this is one of them.

The Member for Cardiff Central is absolutely right to raise this point, because as we've heard, the former leader of Reform UK in Wales, and a former Member of this place, admitted to accepting those bribes in exchange for promoting those pro-Russian views whilst serving in the European Parliament—a clear and present danger to our democracy. And, worryingly, First Minister, this is not an isolated incident. The current Reform leader in Wales, who notably doesn't live here in Wales, is Nigel Farage. He has previously expressed admiration for Vladimir Putin and has repeated the false Russian narrative that the west provoked the illegal invasion of Ukraine. So, First Minister, would you agree with me that Reform UK present themselves as a clear and present danger to our national security here as well?

Thanks very much. I do think that the recent appalling Old Bailey case with Nathan Gill showed the risk of political interference; it's something we have to take very seriously. It's interesting that the number of people in Wales and across the UK who are concerned about this has increased significantly: four years ago, about 38 per cent of people were worried about it; today, 52 per cent of people are worried about it. We all know that there is potential for it happening. Sometimes, I look at some of the comments on my Facebook page and think, 'Where on earth are they coming from?' and there are some clues there as to where some of them are coming from, although I accept that there are lots of people who have issues with some of the things that I suggest as well.

I think it's important that we recognise that there is a role to play in defending democracy. I met the UK Government security Minister, Dan Jarvis, and was assured that the defending democracy taskforce has sufficient focus on Wales, and they are going to be stepping up their engagement with us, as we move towards those elections.

Our mission is simple: more quality jobs to help people with the cost-of-living challenges. That's why Welsh Labour is delivering, with the UK Government, city and growth deals, free ports and investment zones, and that's why we back businesses, through Business Wales and the Development Bank of Wales. Since 2016, Business Wales has supported over 37,000 jobs and 8,500 start-ups, while the development bank has backed more than 500 firms. We're not stopping there; we've got the upcoming investment summit that's going to channel millions into semiconductors, creative industries and green energy, driving up the number of jobs that we have in Wales, and giving Wales the economic stability that it needs.

Thank you for that answer, First Minister. One of the key levers you have in your arsenal to improve economic activity is the planning system, and I've yet to speak to anyone who is pleased about the planning system here in Wales, whether that be applicants or people who object to applications going in. But on the macroeconomic picture, where small builders try and develop housing in small communities, they really do struggle to meet the upfront costs and the uncertainty that the planning system offers them in attracting the permissions that would be favourable to them. What support can the Welsh Government give to make the planning system more attractive, like the English planning system, which is more beneficial on permitted development rights and supporting small builders to develop housing opportunities in our communities, so that people can find the homes that they want?

Thanks very much. The first thing I did when I became First Minister was to insist on more money going into the planning system, because I recognise that that is a break on economic productivity. And that's why that money has gone into the planning system. It is making a difference. Natural Resources Wales has had more support specifically with planning. So, things are moving on in those areas, and I hope that that will move through.

One of the issues we have is with skills in relation to planning; we need to make sure that we constantly have the right people with the right skills. We tend to see the brilliant people who we have and employ sometimes being picked off by the private sector, so we have to constantly be retraining and getting more people into our planning system. So, making sure that we have got the right skills in place, the right planners in place.

This is an example of a back-room job that makes a difference to the front line. So, when people talk about cutting red tape and cutting back-room staff, they are talking about planners. So, be very careful. Your conference on the weekend was talking about £43 billion-worth of cuts to public services. That's an example of the kind of thing that you might be thinking that it might be cutting, but actually that would be devastating in terms of economic growth and jobs.

Back in 2023, I cited figures from a report by Co-operatives UK to the then First Minister, showing that Welsh co-operatives had the lowest annual turnover in the UK, accounting for just 0.6 per cent of Welsh GDP. The figures since I raised that, almost exactly two years ago, have remained more or less static: 521 co-operatives in 2023, 518 in 2024, and 519 in 2025. So, a decline in the figures, according to Co-operatives UK, and no significant change in the amount of total annual turnover.

Co-operatives have a significant role to play in bolstering the Welsh economy and levels of economic activity. But in order to play that role, they need to be placed on a more equal footing with other business models. So, can the First Minister therefore reflect on the Welsh Government's progress, not only in increasing the number of co-operatives, but also in scaling up their size and impact? Because if these latest figures are anything to go by, that progress appears to have been disappointing. 

Well, thanks very much. We are absolutely committed to supporting the co-operative movement and community-based projects. Our programme for government commitment has actually, through our support for Cwmpas, been designed to make sure that we do drive up the situation. We have increased the funding £200,000 just this financial year, in order to see what more can be done in relation to co-operative housing and community-led housing.

Talk about economic activity and growth often focuses on the bottom line, the black-and-white facts and figures, rather than those who are the very foundation of our economy—the people who power it. So, First Minister, I was pleased to hear you, in your speech to the Labour Party conference last week, setting out plans that, in the next Senedd term, any business seeking Welsh Government support will need to pay the real living wage, end exploitative zero-hours contracts and open the door to trade unions.

This is something that I have called for myself in the past. Indeed, in a short debate just over a year ago, I asked, very similarly, that any organisation receiving public funds should, as a minimum, be committed to paying at least the real living wage, offer all their workers contracted hours should they want them, and allow access to trade unions and promote trade union membership.

So, are you able today, perhaps, to set out the next steps of the announcement that you made at the conference, and what that will look like? Do you agree with me that, to truly unlock our economy and economic potential, we have to empower the workers who are the backbone of our economy?

Well, thanks very much, Hannah. Can I start by thanking you for your work in driving forward this agenda? I think that we should be really proud of the fact that we are the only part of the United Kingdom that has a social partnership law built into what is expected if you work with the Welsh Government in Wales.

So, it is important, I think, for us to look at what more we can do in terms of deepening the link between public funding and fair work. That is precisely what I set out at the Labour Party conference: making that connection through the fact that, if you are going to get a Welsh Government grant, then you should be paying the real living wage, you should be ending zero-hours contracts, and you should be allowing trade unions to access the workforce.

I do think that it is important also for us to set out that we are working really closely with the UK Government on its groundbreaking Employment Rights Bill. That is very important, I think, for the workers of this country. It is probably worth emphasising, once again, that Reform is a party that has been trying to block the rights of workers, and the suggested rights for workers, from reaching the people in our communities, and being able to protect them in the way that trade unionists champion.

As a proud Pembrokeshire resident, I know that tourism is the lifeblood of our communities. That's why, since 2023, Welsh Labour has invested £700,000 through Visit Wales, from the new floating pontoon in Fishguard to upgraded visitors' facilities in Carew and Castell Henllys. We're also backing our high streets through the Transforming Towns fund. And let me be clear: our visitor levy is about fairness. If councils choose to introduce this measure, money raised locally will stay locally. That will fund the bins, loos and footpaths that tourists use and ensure that the pressure on our permanent residents is relieved.

First Minister, the message that I get from tourism businesses in Pembrokeshire is that they are struggling with a number of pressures thanks to disastrous policy making from your Government and your colleagues in Westminster. Small business owners in Pembrokeshire running self-catering businesses are very concerned about the UK Government's latest proposals on energy performance certificates, which is just another level of red tape for these businesses to have to contend with.

These business owners are already facing pressures due to the Welsh Government's 182-day threshold policy, and if the UK Government push for tourism businesses to comply with energy performance certificate regulations, it could risk forcing many operators out of business. So, First Minister, the Welsh Government should be doing everything it can to support Wales's tourism businesses by looking at how it can reduce regulatory pressure and red tape. Therefore, can you tell us what representations you've made to the UK Government in relation to energy performance certificate regulations, and what discussions have you had with tourism operators regarding this very specific issue?

Thanks very much. We have responded to the UK Government consultation and we've told them that the approach needs to consider the unique Welsh context. We will consider if any action is required once the final policy position is known. But what I can tell you is that we are committed to tourism in Wales. The fact is that the visitor levy could raise £33 million a year and 90 per cent of that revenue would stay in the local community. But also we need to make sure that those areas that do attract tourism are actually fit for purpose, and that's why I'm looking forward very much to this Friday, to the official opening of the Western Quayside development and Riverside Shopping Centre in Haverfordwest. This is going to breathe new life into the town centre and takes up some of the £20 million Transforming Towns fund that we have committed to transforming our town centres.

The JLR cyber attack has hit Welsh suppliers and the people who work in those companies hard. We welcome the £1.5 billion UK loan guarantee, but Welsh workers need to know when the money will land. Our teams are in daily contact with around 30 suppliers in Wales, and React and Working Wales are already on standby to support any workers affected. I'm really pleased to see that there does seem to be some movement on this this morning, with JLR announcing that the phased restart of JLR manufacturing operations will happen.

Thanks, First Minister. In Llanelli, the Marelli factory, which is still known to many in the town as Morris Motors, has felt a significant impact. Agency workers have been laid off and staff have been told to stay home and work back the hours, which inevitably means there'll be no overtime in the run-up to Christmas, which they rely on. The UK Government, as you say, have stepped in with a loan guarantee, but as the Financial Times pointed out yesterday, JLR have been reckless in not having cyber insurance in place, especially since the damaging attacks on Marks and Spencers and Co-op show what damage this can do to a business.

JLR are owned by Tata, which, as the FT point out, as such a large firm, should be able to deal with temporary shocks to their operations like this, and it certainly shouldn't be the workforce who have to suffer. The Confederation of British Metalforming says it fears irreversible damage to the UK auto supply chain from the fallout from this cyber attack. The Welsh Government have relationships at a senior level of Tata and JLR. Would the First Minister make further representations to Tata, the parent company, to provide urgent support for downstream suppliers like Marelli in Llanelli? 

Thanks very much. Just to be clear, our officials have been very much in contact with companies in Wales that are affected. We are continuing to monitor the impact on the supply chain companies, and that includes Marelli and Gestamp, both operating in Llanelli. They have a combined workforce of 360 people, but there's also, as you say, the agency workers who are depending on this as well.

I met with the Secretary of State for Business and Trade, Peter Kyle, last week and I know that the Cabinet Secretary for economy has written to him asking for details about when the funding will come down. But you’re quite right—I think more pressure and more questions need to be asked of Tata as to why they hadn’t got a more robust system and a system that supported the downstream workers, as you suggest.

First Minister, there are a lot of people who have been quite nervous about the ongoing situation with JLR, recognising the company supports over 33,000 people directly and many more through their suppliers. One of those suppliers is ZF Automotive UK, based in Pontypool, which is not in my constituency, but has quite a lot of its employees from within my constituency. I know the Welsh Government has provided the company with support with upgrading their production line prior to, but I anticipate that their workers will be very worried about recent events. Whilst the cyber attack was targeted at JLR, this will of course have an impact across the supply chain. First Minister, I think you have already answered my question, but will you be liaising with that specific company and other small businesses who may be in the supply chain who are deeply concerned at the moment?

Thanks very much. Just to say that we absolutely recognise the importance of JLR to the Welsh economy. We estimate that there are 30 Wales-based companies in the JLR supply chain. Wales has 17 companies directly shipping to JLR. Of those, six companies have a greater than 50 per cent reliance on JLR, potentially impacting 1,500 jobs. So, this is an extremely serious situation, and if you start to include the lower tier suppliers and SMEs then you are talking about 2,700 jobs. I think we are all relieved to see that things look like they are going to be switched back on at JLR, so we will see this relief, but I think there are some very serious lessons for the company to learn here.

Helping people who’ve been given protection by the UK Government in Wales, often after fleeing war or violence, represents Welsh values in action. It helps us to fill jobs gaps and many contribute to our economy. Now, let’s be honest. Some try to stir this into something it is not. Just two years ago, almost everyone agreed that we had to step up for Ukrainian refugees. We did, and Wales welcomed them with decency and with compassion. If I recall, some Members who now criticise us were pressing us then to do more. So, you can’t have it both ways. You cannot call for compassion one month and then say something different a few months later.

First Minister, it is disingenuous of you and others in your party to suggest that, by simply opposing your £55 million nation of sanctuary policy, we somehow do not care about Ukrainians. You know that is simply not true. What Reform object to is a policy that puts a neon sign above Wales saying to the rest of the world—[Interruption.]

Let's hear what the Member has to say. Carry on, Laura Anne Jones.

What Reform object to is a policy that simply puts a neon sign above Wales that suggests the rest of the world come here, possibly illegally, use our services, our benefits, our housing, when our NHS is already stretched to the max and we have veterans sleeping on the street. England has not found it essential to declare themselves a nation of sanctuary, nor has Scotland. Yet both welcome Ukrainians—which Reform do—that are living, working and contributing without the grandstanding label of a ‘nation of sanctuary’ or the cost. Ukrainians in other parts of the UK are simply getting the support that they need. But it is not just about Ukrainians, is it, First Minister? It is you that needs to stop playing politics with it, and this side of the Chamber. Your policy—

I have been generous. You are going to need to come to a question now.

First Minister, your policy on nation of sanctuary sends a message to those who are arriving illegally here that they'll be looked after first, before Welsh families, Welsh taxpayers—

You're going to ask a question rather than carry on just reading your script. Can you ask the question, please?

When will you end this costly, unnecessary policy, or do you see it running indefinitely, and at what cost to the taxpayer? Diolch.

Eighty-two per cent of the nation of sanctuary budget was spent on supporting Ukrainian arrivals to Wales between 2022 and 2024. And let me quote what you said on your Facebook page:

'I asked the Welsh Government if they would outline what the next steps they propose to take to help Ukrainians in Wales'.

You can't have it both ways. That's what you were saying on your Facebook page a few months ago.

I think it's really important for us to make sure people understand it is not the Welsh Government that decides how many and which asylum seekers are placed in Wales. If you've got aspirations to run this country, you should work out what powers we have to deliver. Promising things to people that simply are not ours to deliver is pulling the wool over people's eyes. Reform has said that if you win in Wales, you're going to stop the use of any building for asylum seeker accommodation. The Welsh Government has no power to prohibit the use of any building for asylum seeker accommodation.

I just think it's really important that you are honest with the public on this issue, and that you're honest in places like Caerphilly, where Reform is whipping up anti-immigration policies. Let's be clear that Caerphilly has the lowest percentage of people born overseas of anywhere in Wales—2.9 per cent—and many of those are working in our health and care services. And it's only 0.05 per cent of our budget per year over six years that has been spent on this policy. I am proud that we opened our hearts to people like Ukrainians, to people who defended our country and helped us out in Afghanistan, and who we need to stand by in terms of Hong Kong as well.

First Minister, you would be hard-pressed to find anyone who does not support providing sanctuary to genuine refugees. However, by blurring the lines between legal and illegal migration, the nation of sanctuary plan has set back community support for immigration in Wales. We have a duty to house genuine refugees, but even then, it has to be in the right place at the right time. Taking families fleeing Ukraine and dumping them here is unfair to them and those communities. Wales has a housing crisis. I have constituents living in tents, and yet we are to take thousands of migrants under the UK Government's immigration policies. First Minister, do you agree that until we can house our existing population, the public are unlikely to support offering a home to those seeking a better life here in Wales?

I can't believe—. You're worse than Reform in what you've just said. That is absolutely unacceptable. You're whipping up division in our communities. We've just had a terrible situation on the weekend where we saw what whipping up hatred really means. Hate hurts Wales, and we're going to be having a briefing on this in the next few days. I want to bring our communities together. I don't want to see them divided. And you should know, of everybody, that what we get very often is a massive contribution from people who are contributing to our communities.

We know that in west Wales, for example, almost 50 per cent of the doctors and dentists were trained overseas. One of the things I'm really proud of is that we've got the Wales asylum seeker and refugee doctors group, and what we do is to ensure doctors and consultants who arrive in Wales can continue to practise within the NHS. These people very often have skills that we can use, and we depend on them to keep our public services going.

Good afternoon, First Minister. I find this very distasteful and absolutely dishonest. The facts are very clear: the nation of sanctuary, unlike what we've heard from Reform and, I'm afraid, what we're hearing from the Conservatives now—you're changing your mind, to be honest—is about helping people who are here legally. Eighty-two per cent of that fund has gone on Ukrainians. Mick Antoniw is going out again to Ukraine for the fifth time in order to deliver help and aid. Many of you have supported that, so, please, let us concentrate on what nation of sanctuary is about: it's about supporting those who need our help. We have neighbours and friends—[Interruption.]

Allow the Member to carry on, please. Jane Dodds—[Interruption.] No, don't comment under your breath, Darren Millar. Jane Dodds, carry on.

Many of the Ukrainians who've arrived here are now our neighbours and our friends, and many work in the professions that we need. Even people who are not Ukrainians work in our health service, in our care homes, our nurses, and work in our hospitality industry. This distasteful and disgraceful language has no place for us here in Wales. So, I would like to ask you, First Minister, you have talked a lot about your support for the nation of sanctuary, but I'd like to ask you to make sure that people know what the nation of sanctuary here in Wales is about, and to ensure that we actually attack the myths and the disgraceful situations that people are talking about that put it in a different place. Diolch yn fawr.

I think this is a crunch point for the country. I genuinely think that people need to decide on which side of this argument they're on. Do they want to be on the side of division or do they want to be on the side of community cohesion and of hope? That is a question that people are going to have to ask themselves in the next few months, and in Caerphilly in the next few days. I think it's really important that people are clear, and I want them to be clear, where we stand as a party on this. I am proud that we are a nation that supports people who have fled terrible situations, like the war in Ukraine, like Afghanistan, like the human rights situation in Hong Kong. We need to stand by them. We are proud to stand by them, and they are making a valuable contribution to our communities.

First Minister, I very much agree with what you've just said. These are very worrying and dangerous times, and people who are visibly different, black people in our communities, are extremely worried. Those delivering our crucial health services, for example, are very worried in terms of the hostility that they face. I agree with you, it's up to politicians now to be absolutely clear. We are leaders in our communities. Are we for or against division and hate? I would hope that the vast majority of Members in this Chamber can come together and show that we are for that community cohesion and togetherness, that welcome and tolerance that you've described.

Several years ago, First Minister, the then Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee of the then National Assembly did a report on refugees and asylum seekers in Wales, drew evidence from across our communities and, on a cross-party basis, made recommendations that included the Welsh Government taking steps to become a nation of sanctuary. That was the consensus within the National Assembly then. We need to reassert that consensus of right-thinking and right-minded people and representatives in this dangerous and alarming time.

Thank you, John. I've got nothing to add to that. I think you expressed it very well.

Let me be absolutely clear: the two-child benefit cap is a morally indefensible policy that punishes children for the circumstances of their birth. It is unequivocally a product of a decade of Tory austerity that has entrenched poverty and widened inequality across our country. While social security schemes are reserved, the Welsh Labour Government is committed to using all our available levers to tackle child poverty. That includes, for example, our work on the Welsh benefits system, the schools essentials grant and our universal free school meals programme, all of which are designed to put money back in the pockets of families and protect children from the worst effects of this policy. We are also actively pursuing the case for devolving the administration of welfare.

We continue to raise the two-child limit and wider welfare reform issues with the UK Government at each child poverty taskforce and inter-ministerial group meeting.

Thank you for your answer there. There's much of what you just said that I agree with. The two-child cap is a policy that punishes parents for being poor, but worse than that, as you've said, it punishes children for being born into poverty. It is regressive, it is cruel and it should be scrapped.

Last week we held a debate on Plaid Cymru's poverty reduction plan, and that centered on the creation of Cynnal, a child payment for Wales. Now, Barnardo's Cymru have called for a scheme of this nature, as has the Children's Commissioner for Wales. It was disappointing that Labour had voted against the idea. So, I would ask: in the last few months of this Government, will you be making the case for Wales to have enhanced powers, to ensure that we can tackle the scourge of child poverty? And will you as a Welsh Government be making representations to the Chancellor, further to what you've just said, for her to use the budget to lift this two-child benefit cap once and for all?

Thank you, Delyth. So, Welsh Government has consistently called for positive changes in social security policy to tackle child poverty and an end to the two-child benefit rule. We know social security policies potentially impact on child poverty, and we think it's very important to examine the impact of social security policy as a whole, instead of on a piecemeal approach, looking at individual policies. This will ensure that people, and especially families, can meet their essential costs. 

The Welsh Government has invested over £7 billion between 2022 and 2026 in schemes to support people across Wales who are living in poverty. These schemes are targeting support at people who need it most, helping people get access to their entitlements and helping to keep money in people's pockets. 

We continue as a Welsh Labour Government to work across the UK to explore how reserved powers can support and build on the actions we're taking in Wales, not only to tackle poverty for the long term, but to mitigate the worst effects of living in poverty in the short term. Through our engagement with the four nations' ministerial child poverty taskforce, we're ensuring that the experience of families in Wales are considered in the work to examine and tackle the root causes of child poverty, and in influencing how the UK Government uses its powers to address child poverty. 

The four nations inter-ministerial group on work and pensions has been set up and met for the first time in June. That IMG is the ideal forum to share the excellent work the Welsh Government is doing to maximise household incomes, and as you say, Delyth, to ensure that the voice of Wales is heard loud and clear in the reform of social security. 

Diolch, Rhys. Since the Labour Government took power, we've seen no breaches of the Sewel convention, unlike under the previous Conservative Government. I continue to make representations to UK Ministers and to provide legal advice to the Welsh Government on how best to defend our devolved settlement.

We are absolutely not passive observers. We are actively asserting our rights under the Sewel convention, and we continue to do so. Welsh Labour continues to be the party of devolution. We've reformed the Senedd to better reflect the powers it holds, and we've established the Independent Commission on the Constitutional Future of Wales to chart our path forward. We're also pressing for the devolution of justice, the Crown Estate and the administration of welfare, because we believe decisions about Wales should be made in Wales.

Diolch yn fawr, Cwnsler Cyffredinol. Since 2020, you'll be aware that this Senedd has been overridden by Westminster on multiple issues across several different matters that have been devolved, from retained EU law to protest laws. Now, when overriding the will of this Senedd, the unelected Lord Benyon said rather patronisingly of us that he hoped, in time, that we will see what they are doing, essentially telling a democratically elected body not to worry because one day we'll realise that what the House of Lords and Westminster are doing is right for us, and it's right for them to rule over us. 

Last time I raised the issue with you, Cwnsler Cyffredinol, you agreed that conventions that are supposed to protect Welsh democracy have turned out to be worthless. The Counsel General has said again today that she's glad that the Labour Government hasn't overruled the Senedd yet, and that's, of course, a position I share, and I'm happy with that. But, of course, based on the past, we can see then, looking to the future, that conventions are no good when it comes to protecting the Welsh devolution settlement. What, therefore, is the Cwnsler Cyffredinol doing to ensure that Westminster cannot overrule the Senedd again?

Thank you, Rhys. There are a number of complicated issues around this, but we're very pleased indeed that the current Government has not overruled the will of the Senedd, and long may that continue. There are working groups that the Deputy First Minister in particular attends on constitutional arrangements, which involve making sure that we entrench the Sewel convention in better ways, up to and including in law—memorandums of understanding and up to and including law—and that's an ongoing piece of work. We would very much like to see that, obviously.

Then you'll know as well as I do that there are a lot of complicated things that happened where the previous Conservative UK Government did overrule the will of the Senedd and then something has become law. We are then faced with a factual position where conferred relevant functions on Welsh Ministers have happened, and so we need to make sure that we take the right steps to ensure that the body of Welsh law properly reflects that. So, there are some complex issues where the Senedd has not wanted the law to be passed, but it's been passed anyway, and then we have to consider what action is necessary to make sure that Welsh law is both accessible and coherent in the light of that overruling. But, clearly, it's a far better position to be in where the will of the democratically elected Senedd is regarded properly by the UK Government.

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Llywydd. On 16 April the UK Supreme Court determined that the definition of a woman refers to biological sex. Given that this was nearly six months ago, what steps has the Welsh Government taken since the ruling to protect female-only spaces?

As you know, there has been a series of conversations going on around the guidance that was issued for that. We were waiting on that guidance to come, and there is a comprehensive review of policies right across Welsh Government in the light of the guidance. My colleague Jane Hutt has been looking at that guidance extensively, and as soon as we're in a position to be able to say what the impact will be, we will reintroduce the guidance.

That ruling, Counsel General, was six months ago. I think the public expect you, frankly, to get on with it, like we've seen other Governments, like the Scottish Government, do. The Women's Rights Network wrote to the leaders of all political parties represented here in the Senedd just after that judgment. I'll read you an excerpt of the letter that was sent, where they say:

'The Welsh Government's refusal to recognise "woman" as an exclusive category with its own specific needs and the consequent erosion of our vital single sex spaces and services has been underpinned by the bullying, harassment, abuse and deaf ears that have met attempts to raise our concerns.

'The Welsh Government's statement on the Supreme Court judgement makes no acknowledgement of past mistakes and also makes no commitment to hear women's voices in the future or to address our concerns. It is also regrettable that previous communications sent to the First Minister seeking a meeting to discuss our concerns have had no response.'

It's not my portfolio—

Now, you are the Counsel General—I can hear you saying it's not your portfolio—you are responsible for implementing this Supreme Court ruling. So, why are you and the First Minister ignoring the Women's Rights Network?

We aren't ignoring them. My colleague, whose portfolio it is in, has met with them very recently.

I look forward to that being adjudicated, but the Women's Rights Network have asked for a meeting with the First Minister and, as far as I'm aware, they have not had one.

My own party leader, Darren Millar, has written back to the Women's Rights Network confirming the Welsh Conservatives' position that we can define what a woman is and that we will protect women-only spaces. [Interruption.] I wish that the Welsh Government was in a position to do the same. Unfortunately, it is this Welsh Labour Government—you can tut all you like, Counsel General, but the Welsh Government's position is frighteningly out of kilter with public opinion.

And another issue you're out of kilter with public opinion on is immigration. Over the summer, in an interview with WalesOnline, you said, and I quote:

'The immigration thing just does my head in. I just don't understand why anyone in Wales is even remotely worried about immigration'.

Do you stand by those words?

Absolutely.

Disgraceful—

Counsel General, last week I listened to the Nobel Laureate Maria Ressa addressing the very challenge of disinformation that was addressed earlier in Jenny Rathbone's question. She argued very eloquently that, without truth, there is no trust, no shared reality, and without that, there can be no proper functioning democracy.

Yesterday the Welsh Government became the first in the world to publish a draft Bill that creates a statutory requirement for a general offence of deliberate deception for the purpose of influencing elections, and I think you should be congratulated for that. In making this proposal, could you say a little bit about how you've come, as a Government, to the conclusion that it is necessary to defend facts in a democracy, given the challenges we're facing? And will you confirm that the way that the Bill is written means that there will be a statutory duty on Ministers to bring forward the regulations, then, through secondary legislation? And is there a specific time frame for them to do that? 

Diolch yn fawr, Adam, for that series of questions. Just to be really clear about where we are in the process, though, the Bill was sent for determination by the Llywydd on Monday—by the First Minister—as is the custom. As a result of the most recent agreement with the Commission, the Government published the draft Bill at the same time, for the sole purpose of the Commission and its committees being able to consider what is necessary for scrutiny. The Bill is therefore not published for further consultation or remark. But I can say, of course, that as the debates last year illustrated, we're all in agreement that deception in a political debate has a corrosive impact on democracy, and that's why the Bill has been brought forward.

I don't really feel I'm in a position, while the Llywydd has not even yet determined that the Bill is within competency, to discuss very detailed points on it. The draft Bill, though, is there for all to see. It contains a duty on Welsh Ministers to do various things, but, of course, it hasn't even been introduced to the Senedd yet. I look very much forward to the debates, as it continues its process through the Senedd, assuming that the Llywydd rules that it's in competence, which we haven't yet had.

Far be it from me to wish to contradict any matter in relation to the proper process here, but, in terms of the generality of the questions that were covered earlier and are pertinent even to the broad subject matter of the Bill, could you say whether the kind of issues in relation to digital disinformation, for example deepfakes, which are increasingly a factor within disinformation—whether those matters are within the remit of the Senedd in general terms, as are also not just statements made by candidates, for example, but also other third parties, and that in exploring legislation, in general terms, in this area it could be sufficiently broad enough to address both those possibilities?

Thank you, Adam. You're nicely demonstrating how complex the situation is there by the question, how hard it is even to frame a question that crystallises some of the issues. So, I think that's an excellent example of why this is a complex area and why we've come to an agreement that the Bill should be introduced. And as I say, I don't want to prejudge anything that the Llywydd is going to say, but obviously assuming that the Llywydd does find the Bill within competence, which I obviously very much hope she does, I'm very much looking forward to having those conversations. The Bill has been drafted in a way that allows the maximum flexibility in scrutiny, and, of course, we will be looking forward to working with the committee, whatever committee it is, on that, once the Bill has—. I haven't yet even introduced it to the Senedd and the Llywydd hasn't ruled on its competence. I don't want to not answer your questions, but I feel I am a little bit out of kilter with where we are in the process.

Well, I suppose this is an entirely new—. I think this is the first time that this has happened, yes. So, I wasn't aware either that we're not allowed to discuss the Bill, even though it has been published and it's prior to the determination, and so we'll dance around this. 

Finally, there are matters not covered in the draft Bill in relation to Members. I presume that it will be possible to address those at later stages of the Bill and that the Government will engage fully with those proposals at the appropriate stage.

Yes, so where we are in the process is it's been sent to the Llywydd for her determination on competence. We are yet to receive that. The Government agreed that for year 5 Bills in this Senedd we would publish the Bill at the point of sending for determination in order to facilitate the process of scrutiny, so that the Llywydd and her Business Committee can have a look at that—assuming that she finds it is within competence—and what that scrutiny might look like. And just to remind everyone, the reason we did that for year 5 Bills is because, obviously, year 5 is very short. So, we have a situation where the amount of time available is very short. I know that you know that this Bill is scheduled currently for its last stage to be on the last sitting day of this Senedd. So, we are really up against it. But I have to wait for the Llywydd's determination before I feel that I'm able to go into any of the detail. I'm looking forward—assuming that I am able to introduce it to the Senedd—to having a comprehensive set of scrutiny sessions, because it's very important to get this right and to make sure that it extends to all of the right areas of our political life.

There was some beautiful dancing happening there. [Laughter.]

Diolch, Rhys. The publication of Welsh justice data is a turning point. For the first time, we can shape justice policy based on Welsh realities. Disaggregated data is already forming our work on the devolution of youth justice and probation, and is now being discussed between the Welsh and UK Labour Governments. It helps us design services that reflect the needs of our communities, including the women's residential centre in Swansea, which offers a trauma-informed alternative to custody. We very much hope that will go ahead. We use this data to support our case for the full devolution of justice, as recommended by the Commission on Justice in Wales.

Diolch yn fawr, Cwnsler Cyffredinol. I agree with your phrase 'turning point', but it's a turning point that has taken a long time to turn. The idea that the Welsh Government had to draft justice policy without disaggregated Welsh data was simply ridiculous. The Commission on Justice in Wales report was commissioned by Carwyn Jones. It was published six years ago to this month, and this was one of the recommendations that everybody agreed on—even the Ministry of Justice under the Conservative Government agreed on disaggregated Welsh data. Finally, of course, it was published last week. But it's understood that many important requested areas have not been published, such as parental imprisonment, deaths in custody, and the number of Welsh-speaking prisoners. When will those important data be published, because those are fundamental for Welsh Government policy? When will they be published, and will we have to wait another six years to see them? Diolch yn fawr.

Well, I sincerely hope we will not have to wait another six years. So, again, my colleague Jane Hutt has been on the trail of this for some considerable time, and there have been a number of us involved, across the Government, in attempting to get this data. I have to pay tribute to a number of outside actors as well, who have worked very hard indeed to get where we are so far. There are, of course, a number of other data sets that we very much want disaggregated, and that conversation is very much ongoing. We have a research project going at the moment to try and identify all of the data sets that we want, not just the ones that seem slightly more obvious. What I hope very much is that, now we've got this bit, we've kind of wedged open the door—so, now the principle is established and we can gather pace with the rest of the data. We can address some of the not unreal, practical problems with some of it, but we can address those problems together, and we can get that data.

Trefnydd, I'd be grateful if we could have a statement from the Cabinet Secretary for Transport and North Wales regarding the delivery of rail services. I've been informed that there have been no trains west of Swansea for the last two weekends due to engineering works, and that rail replacement bus services have been in place instead, causing a significant amount of congestion. Now, as I understand it, the engineering work is occurring between Llanelli and Carmarthen. Now, this leads me to question why services further west are experiencing complete disruption. Would it not be possible for train services to continue west from Carmarthen, with bus replacements only operating in the affected area, between Llanelli and Carmarthen? The reality is that rail services to and from west Wales are not good enough, and the people of Pembrokeshire have had to put up with it for a long time. Of course, this comes as Transport for Wales was recently ranked among the UK's least reliable train operators. So, clearly, more needs to be done to deliver a reliable transport network. Therefore, I'd be grateful if we could have a statement from the Welsh Government outlining what improvements are being made to the delivery of rail services so that people living in Pembrokeshire can be confident that the Welsh Government is indeed prioritising this specific issue.

Diolch yn fawr, Paul Davies. Of course, you heard earlier on from the First Minister about the very good success rate in terms of the delivery of services that have come forward from Transport for Wales services. I think that we need to recognise the great developments that are taking place in terms of our Transport for Wales services. But, of course, there are times—. We've got a long way to catch up in terms of a past lack of investment, I have to say, by the former Conservative Government, which obviously has had an impact on the infrastructure of our railways. So, certainly in terms of west Wales, I will ask the Cabinet Secretary to give an update on the works that are being undertaken. With engineering work, of course, rail replacement bus services are always provided, but I know that this will be about investment in the tracks in order to improve the services to west Wales.

It's a horrific, horrific loss in terms of the theft from St Fagans museum. We're all aware of it now. It occurred on 6 October. Two suspects forced entry into the main building and stole Bronze Age gold jewellery. The museum, of course, was closed at the time, at that time of night, but I think we would all want to thank the staff who quickly raised the alarm and thank South Wales Police for its speedy response. But we are, I'm sure, joined across this Chamber in expressing anger at the criminals who attacked a museum beloved by the public, and for the damage they've done to our national heritage. As you say, it's the national collections, and the security of the national collections has been raised in this Chamber and in committee.

Amgueddfa Cymru has increased security at all its sites, we know that, and is also looking with South Wales Police at whether any further precautions should be taken. We're in regular contact with Amgueddfa Cymru, and the Minister for Culture, Skills and Social Partnership is visiting the site today. Security is a high priority for Amgueddfa Cymru and, of course, that includes security audits of all its sites, as well as routinely maintaining and upgrading CCTV and alarm systems. So, I'm glad that I've been able to give this update, thanks to your question today.

In terms of the cultural sector, 'Priorities for Culture', of course, was an important statement in terms of the range, breadth and depth of our wonderful cultural heritage. Also, 'priorities' is the right word in terms of investment for culture, and I know that the Minister for Culture, Skills and Social Partnership will want to update the Senedd on the state of the sector—I know he comes before committee, but also in forthcoming statements as well.

I wanted to raise two issues with the Trefnydd. On Saturday, I was very pleased to attend the Black Welsh Music Awards, the first of their kind, held in the Royal Welsh College of Music and Drama. It was a fantastic evening and a really inspiring occasion, recognising the great achievements of black musicians in Wales. It's hard to think this hasn't been done before, because there's so much talent that needs to be celebrated. So, I'd be grateful for a Government response to this, please.

And then, secondly, last Thursday I attended and spoke at an event at the wonderful Gandhi statue, which is down here in Cardiff Bay, hosted by the Hindu Council of Wales, on International Day of Non-violence. So, at a time when it feels as if the world is becoming increasingly more violent, in word and deed, every day, especially with the dreadful attacks on the Jewish community in Manchester last week, it is so important that we promote peace and non-violence in any way that we can, in the same way as Gandhi did. So, could the Trefnydd make a statement on how Wales is promoting peace and non-violence, so that all the different communities we are lucky enough to have here in Wales can feel valued and safe?

Diolch yn fawr, Julie Morgan, and thank you for drawing attention to the Black Welsh Music Awards. They have been hailed as 'a historic first for Wales', a nation that's now carved out its own space on the global black music stage. I do think it signals that the era of under-recognition is over and time for visibility, excellence and ownership has begun. Some of those words come from the volunteers, the dedicated team of creatives, volunteers, who actually made this event happen. The Black Welsh Music Awards winners are crowned in Wales—the first ever celebration of black musical excellence—at the Royal Welsh College of Music and Drama, which you were able to attend. I attended the reception the night before.

I think also they would want to really draw attention to the fact that this also included Welsh language awards for black singers and musicians. The best songwriter was Kizzy Crawford for 'Codwr y Meirwon', and best Welsh language track award went to Aleighcia Scott, for 'Dod o'r Galon.' It's great to see that culture coming together, very much part, I would say, of Black History Wales 365, which we also saw launched at St Fagans, the national museum, last weekend. So, thank you for drawing attention to that. I know Members will recognise how important it was. Of course, it did receive financial support from Creative Wales. It sponsored the first Black Welsh Music Awards and also it sponsors other grass-roots initiatives.

But I think also—and it links to your second question—it's very positive that we acknowledge today and we visibly support events like this that promote diversity, particularly in the current climate. So, thank you for also attending and drawing attention to the International Day for Non-Violence and the Gandhi statue, which we all see probably every day as we come into the bay. I remember when that statue was unveiled and how the local community raised the funds for that statue. I know it was a very moving ceremony, as it is annually, for people to come together, led by the Hindu Council of Wales, to remember what Gandhi stood for in terms of peace and also promoting unity and harmony.

Next week, I will be giving a statement on Hate hurts Wales, which is about our very long-standing commitment to promoting community cohesion, and also recognising the importance of people knowing that they can report hate. We have a Wales Hate Support Centre run by Victim Support, and I want to say again, today, please, for you all as Senedd Members, recognising your constituents, that if any of them are victims of hate crime, you can call the hate support centre. The centre's available 24 hours a day, 365, all-year round, at hate.crimewales@victimsupport.org.uk.

And also just to say that I hope Members will have seen my written statement yesterday on the Manchester synagogue attack, saying that acts of violence against places of worship are a stark reminder of the importance of demonstrating our shared commitment to peace and mutual respect. We've been reflecting on that this afternoon. I chaired the faith community forum last week, where we had all faiths coming together—Jewish, Muslim, Christian, Hindu, Baháʼí, all coming together. Their leadership is so important. The recognition of a faith community is crucial. They do foster unity and resilience in the face of such troubling events, and we work closely with our faith leaders and community representatives to ensure Wales remains a place where diversity is valued and protected.

October is a holy period for our Jewish community, and today is the second anniversary, as we've heard, of the Hamas attack on Israel, the taking of hostages who are yet to be returned. But we've also, as I said in my statement, seen attacks in England on mosques last weekend. We must remember that our society is inclusive and will remain so, despite the heinous actions of a small number of hateful individuals. And I was pleased to speak not only to the south Wales Jewish representative on our faith communities forum after the heinous attack last week—I spoke to her on Friday—I also spoke to the Muslim Council for Wales today. So, thank you for drawing attention again to that symbol in our bay—Gandhi—of peace and non-violence.

Can I associate myself with the comments made by the Trefnydd in respect of the importance of protecting our places of worship and fostering a good and inclusive discussion with our faith communities at this very difficult time?

Trefnydd, can I call for a statement from the Minister for health and social services in relation to stroke services in Wales? I met last week with the Ruthin stroke club and heard there from people who had suffered stroke about their experiences, both good and bad. It seemed very clear to me that we're not making good enough progress in trying to improve outcomes for stroke patients here in Wales. Not everybody is getting access to stroke units, not everybody is getting access to reablement services in the way that they should, and, in particular, there appears to be a gap in terms of providing psychological support, giving that mental health and well-being support to people who've suffered stroke, and indeed their carers. I wonder if the Welsh Government would provide an update on this, and particularly around that psychological support.

In addition, I was urged to raise concerns about the lack of the Act FAST campaign being reinvigorated and ignited here in Wales. We know that the symptoms of stroke are something that people need to be aware of—the face, arms, speech and time issues are very, very critical to people's outcome. So, we do need national campaigns, and we need these repeated on a regular basis so that everybody can be aware what to do in the event of a loved one or themselves suffering from a stroke.

Thank you very much, Darren Millar. It’s really good that you feed back to us today from that group from Ruthin, from the group who are engaged with enabling people to develop and deliver those stroke services. Of course, that does include many ambassadors, many champions who are working across our constituencies. Our Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care is here today, and he will have heard the points and questions you make. We can be very proud of the way the NHS is responding in terms of its pathways to care and in terms of stroke and how we should all learn as well, in terms of our own contact with people, in case of stroke—or ourselves—what needs to be done and how quickly it needs to be done. So, thank you for drawing attention to it again today.

You have asked for two statements that are very important to the people of Wales, in terms of the rare diseases action plan—an update, because obviously we're not at the finish of the period of time for this plan to be delivered. But I'm sure that the Cabinet Secretary, and his officials and professionals, will be looking at this in terms of the way forward, learning, I'm sure, from the way in which the plan has already been delivered, and indeed has become very much about public awareness as well as clinical awareness of how to respond to the rare diseases that, unfortunately, afflict many of our constituents.

Your second point, I think, is very important and relevant in terms of baby loss. This is an opportunity for us to remember what this means for people's lives. Of course, there has been a very strong response in terms of the Government and health boards, in looking at this in terms of bereavement and support, and a recognition that, not that many years and decades ago, it was not recognised at all. It is a really important part of the way in which we now look at health and well-being and bereavement, so thank you for raising that as well.

Good afternoon, Cabinet member. Could I ask for two statements, please, from the appropriate Cabinet members? One is regarding the urgent situation facing the Monmouthshire and Brecon canal. We had a debate here in July and commitments were made by the Welsh Government that there was a plan to convene a task and finish group. To date, that hasn't happened, and this inaction is creating distress for those affected, particularly as the water is only secured until March 2026. So, I wonder if I could ask for a full statement on that, please, with some timelines.

And the second is with regard to the independent advisory group on future electricity grid for Wales. This group was due to report in March of this year, and still hasn't. This is really critical in order to develop our infrastructure and our electricity grid across Wales, and we are still awaiting their findings. So, I wonder if you could provide, again, an update to the Siambr on that as well, please. Diolch yn fawr.

Diolch yn fawr, Jane Dodds. Yes, the Brecon and Monmouthshire canal has been a big—. You've raised this question in the Chamber, and you've had a positive response, but now is the time to update on what's happening next. I understand that the task and finish group, which was established, is looking at short and longer term sustainable solutions. It was due to meet in September. The meeting had to be reconvened due to illness, and I understand that a provisional date of 20 November is now planned, and that group should make important steps in addressing the issues. But a positive update is that, because there’s been a bit of a gap in the process, a technical advisory group’s been set up to help evaluate specific options and provide expert guidance on the canal’s future to support the task and finish group work. So, I think that is very welcome, that that technical advisory group is in place before the task and finish group, because that group will include environmental bodies and industry stakeholders, so that we ensure that all the economic and ecological considerations are integrated. But it’s an urgent situation, isn’t it, facing the canal, and financial pressures, but there is a commitment of a £5 million upgrade of the Manorafon pumping station, and that is a significant timely intervention in terms of extending the current water supply arrangements between the Canal and River Trust and Dŵr Cymru Welsh Water.

On your second question, just, again, it's really important to have an independent advisory group on the future electricity grid for Wales. That has been convened. It’s taking forward work to build on understanding the possible approaches to delivering electricity transmission infrastructure, and there is a wide membership, a wide range of views, experiences, on the group, and I think, from our feedback, there are many diverse points being raised across the group, requiring updates and follow-through recommendations. Because updating the grid comes with costs and impacts, all authorities and businesses need to be involved in this. But thank you for raising it again, because we’re committed to setting clear expectations for the electricity transmission network based on that evidence base, so on the future needs of Wales’s economy, environment and communities.

Diolch. I call for an urgent statement by the health and social services Secretary on the funding of social care in north Wales. Last week, following the admission by the chair of Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board that emergency care in north Wales was in a crisis situation, north Wales Members received a concerning letter from Care Forum Wales regarding social care funding in north Wales. As they state, funding for social care is critical for timely patient discharge. They add, however, that they’ve experienced significant dysfunction within the health board in this area. The 4.72 per cent uplift for continuing healthcare or CHC fees in 2025-26 is the lowest in Wales and fails to cover increased employer national insurance contributions. Although a 7 per cent uplift is needed to maintain last year’s standards, the health board’s refusal to adopt a national CHC costing methodology has led to unfair outcomes, including lower fees in Conwy, where care needs have increased.

The National Office for Care and Support states that health boards have a responsibility to meet the true cost of care—

You need to conclude now, Mark, please.

—and other health boards have applied uplifts closer to 6 per cent. So, Care Forum Wales seeks constructive engagement to resolve this crisis and urges Welsh Government to support to ensure fair funding and better outcomes for patients. I call for an urgent statement accordingly.

Thank you very much, Mark Isherwood. Of course, this is very much a cross-Government and cross-health board and local government responsibility in terms of addressing these issues, which I know that all our health boards are engaging closely with the local authorities on in terms of provision of social care, and, of course, our Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care and our Minister for Children and Social Care are very much engaged, working to help ensure that social care provision can not only be timely and effective, but can meet the needs of the communities they serve.

Dirprwy Lywydd, just 40 per cent of clinically at-risk under-65s were vaccinated last year in Wales, and vaccination rates amongst health and social care workers have also fallen. This year, we have invested in our health protection infrastructure by centrally procuring flu vaccines for the first time, ensuring healthcare teams have the vaccine and the support they need to engage with some of the hardest to reach communities.

We are prioritising health and care staff engagement and introducing more robust proactive monitoring measures. We are also strengthening how people who experience breathing difficulties, because of the combination of colder weather and the threat of respiratory viruses, are managed. For example, the Welsh ambulance service has introduced rapid clinical screening of reports of breathing problems. Clinicians will remotely assess the severity of a person’s condition before making a decision about the next stage of their care. This will help most people to be treated closer to home.

Respiratory response plans have been developed by health boards to help people receive timely, effective care while reducing pressure on the ambulance service and hospitals. A key part of these plans is targeted towards people with chronic obstructive pulmonary disease who are at higher risk of needing an emergency hospital admission. Health boards will provide individuals at highest risk with a standardised care bundle to support their management throughout the winter period. And the sore throat test and treat service has been available at 99 per cent of community pharmacies since June. This means that people can now get free advice and treatment without the need for a GP appointment.

Dirprwy Lywydd, falls are the second biggest reason for calling an ambulance after breathing problems. They are a leading cause of disability, hospital admission and the need for long-term care. During the winter months, we see more falls, especially among older adults. We have invested in lifting equipment and falls management training for care homes, greater falls response capacity and telecare to reduce people who haven’t experienced an injury after a fall automatically being transported to hospital by ambulance.

The other significant area of work throughout the year has been to improve flow across the health and care system. We have worked closely with colleagues in the NHS and local government to improve community and social care capacity and prevent unnecessary hospital admissions, improve hospital discharge, reduce crowding in emergency departments and reduce ambulance-patient handover delays. This work has been supported by a new £30 million pathways of care transformation grant this year, and the £146.8 million regional integration fund, which continues to support community programmes helping people to leave hospital sooner or avoid admission altogether. We have taken several steps to go further in advance of winter, including: auditing each region’s trusted assessor model and providing toolkits to support health and social care partners; joint health and social care action plans to reduce total pathways of care delays and days delayed; and holding rapid improvement events over the summer focused on delivering ambulance-patient handovers within 45 minutes.

I am pleased, Dirprwy Lywydd, to report that this comprehensive planning has borne fruit in advance of winter, evidenced by operational data that show that ambulance conveyance of service users with breathing problems to hospital has dropped by up to 33 per cent, compared to this point last year. Ambulance-patient handover performance has improved significantly, with ambulance hours lost dropping by 25 per cent in August this year, compared to August of last year. Survival chances for people in cardiac arrest have increased with a 6 percentage point improvement in return of spontaneous circulation rates, following launch of our new clinical model last month. Operational data show more people referred to same-day emergency care, with over 80 per cent discharged without admission. And, crucially, reductions in hospital discharge delays and total days delayed are contributing to our target trajectories for this year, with nearly 16 per cent fewer discharge delays, and a 26 per cent reduction in the total days delayed compared to the August of last year.

We know that there remains local variation, Dirprwy Lywydd, and we are determined to ensure that this changes. We have plans in place, as well, to manage periods of increased demand for children’s care in all hospitals, and action to provide proactive care and co-ordination across the NHS, local authorities and the third sector to support the 0.5 per cent of people who are most at risk of an emergency admission to hospital. We have developed a targeted 'Help Us Help You' communications plan, which will promote public health messaging about how to stay well and how to choose the right service. This will go live from November.

Through co-ordinated action across health and social care, we are preparing for the challenges of this winter, while prioritising patient safety and compassionate care. I urge everyone to play their part, whether by getting vaccinated, checking on a neighbour or using NHS and care services responsibly. I will provide a further update to the Siambr in early December on the plans to improve ambulance-patient handover and an update on delivery again in January. Diolch yn fawr.

I thank the Cabinet Secretary for his statement this afternoon. We all recognise that the winter is the hardest test for our NHS and social care. I want to put on record my thanks to all the staff who work on the front line in our NHS. But I must ask whether this plan truly matches the scale of the crisis facing patients and staff across Wales.

Let's start with the fundamentals. Almost 800,000 people are now on an NHS waiting list—the longest backlog in Great Britain. More than 22 times as many patients wait over 36 weeks compared to before the COVID pandemic. So, I ask the Cabinet Secretary: what is being done this winter to prevent those waiting lists from growing even longer? Because we do know that people having trips and falls will increase, and orthopaedic care will be needed. So, I want to know what you are going to do to reduce that.

Emergency care is another major concern. Last winter, only 39 per cent of red ambulance calls were reached within eight minutes—the worst on record. Just 63 per cent of patients were seen in A&E within four hours, when the target is 95 per cent. In 2024-25, 264,000 ambulance hours were lost, queueing outside hospitals. So, can the Cabinet Secretary tell us what new specific steps have been taken to cut handover delays this winter, on top of the changes that have been made today, which he has outlined in his statement, and the changes made to call categorisation?

Can you also tell me how many additional triage beds are being created in hospitals to stop patients from waiting longer in ambulances? You did mention the 45-minute handover delay, and can you give us some assurances today that that will not increase corridor care within our hospitals?

Vaccination is another pressure point. You correctly identified that the most important preventative step that we can all take this winter is vaccination. As you said, the flu vaccination take-up among critically at-risk people at 65 last year was only 40 per cent. Given that your 'Help us Help you' campaign is due to go live in November, why has the Government waited so long to launch this public health messaging? If it was launched sooner, potentially more people could take up the vaccine before we get into the more pressing times during the winter.

You did talk about falls, and an investment in that area is very important. I'm just interested how you've engaged with allied health professionals in this as well. Surely it's important that, with those sectors, we make people fitter and healthier in their own homes, which prevents falls. I'd just like to know how they fed into this plan as well.

Turning to primary care, GPs, as we know, are under enormous strain. Each GP now cares for about 2,200 patients, on average. That's a 30 per cent rise in the workload since 2013. Many GPs across the country have closed in the past decade, and people are still struggling to get appointments. We all know that if people can get GP appointments, it prevents people from going to A&E departments. So, I'm just interested in what additional help you are going to be providing to our GPs and primary care this winter to make sure that people can get that GP appointment.

You mentioned the sore throat service, and I think that that's very welcome, but what resource is going to back up those teams? The people that I speak to still don't know about the common ailments service. They still don't know it's available. So, I'd be pleased to know what you're doing around that because, yet again, when people do ring 111 with some of these issues, they still get pushed down the A&E route, which is not acceptable.

On workforce, we know that nearly 10 per cent of hospital doctor and dentist posts are vacant in Wales. Staff are exhausted, morale is low, and many are leaving the profession. So, what is the plan to keep staff on our wards and in our ambulances this winter, because we do know that there are going to be high levels of sickness—there always are in the winter—just to make sure that we've got the staff there on the wards, and in our primary care settings, and secondary care settings, to serve our population?

You highlighted, Cabinet Secretary, that the biggest problem that we have is social care and hospital discharge. Audit Wales found that, in West Glamorgan alone, 64,000 hospital bed days were lost in 18 months due to delayed discharges. That costs around £32 million across the country, but this story goes on repeating itself: patients who are fit being trapped in hospital beds, while ambulances queue outside and people not being discharged. You mentioned the pathway to care transformation fund and the regional integration fund. Do you think that this money is enough to actually sort this problem out, and can you guarantee that, this winter, medically fit patients will not be left in hospital beds when wards are becoming full and overflowing?

In rural areas, Cabinet Secretary, we do have the issue of the closing of minor injuries units. They provide a huge lifeline in the winter months to people who have those trips, slips and falls. What we're seeing in my constituency—and I'm sure in other constituencies as well—is those services closing and more people being pushed down the A&E route. So, can I ask you: what more are you doing to make sure that our minor injuries departments in rural areas are protected this winter? We, on this side of the Chamber, will support any action that actually addresses the problems that we face during the winter. But we'll also hold the Government to account if this winter, once again, we see the pressures facing our NHS getting worse and worse. Diolch.

I thank the Member for a very full list of questions. In relation to his questions on trips and falls, ambulance hours and response times, I answered those in the statement that I gave; other people have found those helpful. 

In relation to the points he made about corridor care, he will know that this Government's expectation is that people are not treated in the corridor. My absolute expectation is that hospitals are able to meet both the 45-minute handover target and the requirement not to treat people in corridors other than in extremely exceptional circumstances. I set out, I think, in some detail, the progress that we've made in relation to the 45-minute handover over recent months, which I hope you will have found helpful. 

In relation to the points he made about the Help Us Help You campaign, it's the winter version of that campaign that starts in November. There's been targeted messaging running over the summer, again brought forward this year—so, targeting parents over the summer, freshers going to university in September. The main winter campaign, as I said, goes live in November, with advertising across tv, including on-demand, but also, radio, press, social media and digital. The focus for that campaign this year is on the common ailments service, which I think we would all acknowledge is making great headway.

In relation to the support for primary care, I referred already in my statement to the support we are providing to GPs to identify the 0.5 per cent of their patients with the most complex needs, who are most likely to otherwise find themselves in hospital. And health boards have all been directed to commission those services from GPs for this coming winter. That will enable GPs to be more proactive in the support they provide to that critical cohort, which otherwise runs a serious risk of being in the emergency department.

The number of GPs in practice, as the Member will know, is broadly consistent over recent years, even where there has been some consolidation of practices. One of the challenges, obviously, is how we support GPs in order to provide them with that extra time to do that work that we're asking them to do in relation to those patients with the greatest need. One of the ways in which we're providing that support is through the development of urgent care centres, which enables hospitals to direct people to the right care.

We have a range of interventions in place that then, proactively, can give advice to avoid unnecessary admissions. We have a 'call and consult before convey' model piloting in three health board areas, which has a senior clinician providing advice before a decision is made on conveying care home residents or others to hospital. We're finding that those are bearing fruit. 

He made an important point about support for the social care sector. As I mentioned in my statement, this year, we're providing an additional £30 million—which featured in the budget agreement that we were able to make with the support of the Liberal Democrats—which, effectively, has increased the funding available to social care. And I note for the record, once again, that his party voted against the budget that enabled that to happen.

I thank the Member for those questions. In two areas, the premise for his questions is entirely at odds with the facts that I set out in my statement. I made it clear that ambulance patient handover performance is improving significantly. He asked me for evidence of that. In my statement, I set out that ambulance hours lost—i.e. number of hours spent by patients in the back of ambulances, which is essentially, as he described it, ambulances waiting outside hospitals—is down 25 per cent this year as against last year. That is a very significant reduction. It isn't where we want it to be, but it is a very significant reduction. And we have seen, in recent months, very sharp increases in performance in relation to the 45-minute target. I want to thank those who have been part of my national 45-minute target taskforce, who have helped guide parts of the system in order to make the progress. But to be clear, we expect that progress to continue and to build on it over coming weeks and months, because it's absolutely essential, as I know he would acknowledge.

The second point where his questions were at variance with the facts is in the performance of both the health system and the care system in faster discharge of those patients who are clinically ready to go home. He described the 50-day challenge as a failure. That is absolutely not the case. As I made clear in my statement, there's been a reduction in hospital discharge delays and in total days delayed. We've got 16 per cent fewer discharge delays as against this time last year, and a fantastic 26 per cent reduction in the total days delayed, which is what takes up the capacity in beds that otherwise aren't available. To be clear, people are still waiting too long, but there is significant improvement right across the system, and the further budget that we were able to agree with the Liberal Democrats to support the social care sector will improve even further that position.

In relation to vaccinations, he makes an important number of points. I'm pleased to say, though, that although he identified a drop in uptake, as I did in my own statement, as a result of some of the interventions that we're making, particularly in relation to staffing, we have seen in some quarters a 20 per cent increase on where we were last year. We still want that to be much higher, but we are seeing signs of the new strategies that we have in place, using behavioural techniques to support staff to take up that offer of vaccine and to remind staff that there is a professional expectation that they do this. I think we are starting to see that bearing fruit as well.

He asked a specific point in relation to COVID vaccination. The strategy that the Government deploys in relation to COVID vaccination eligibility and in developing vaccine policy more broadly is one that follows the independent clinical advice of the JCVI, which is formed on high-quality peer-reviewed scientific publications and studies. The eligibility cohort for the autumn this year is now aligned with the eligibility cohort in the spring, which is the advice that we have and is the best means of ensuring the outcomes that we all want to see.

I recently visited a dispensing community pharmacist in Caerwys. She specialises in respiratory issues but struggles to promote it. She says very often people visit her after they can't get a GP appointment, and she wishes it could be the other way around and they would come to her first. How can we help her promote that she can help with respiratory problems, that they do come to her first and the best pathways for residents? Will this be part of the Help Us Help You campaign in November? Thank you. 

I would acknowledge the point that the Member is making in her question. I think there is always a case for looking at what more we can do to promote the services that we have there. The common ailments service is one that is continuously evolving. As I mentioned in my statement, we have the sore throat service, which has been in place from June. We have a UTI service coming on stream from October, so there's a continual evolution of the service. I think there are two things. It very much depends on the local configuration of services. There is more that we can do nationally, and, indeed, the Help Us Help You campaign this year will have a particular focus on promoting pharmacies, so that people know they are available there for everybody and that the common ailments arrangements are a particularly good place to go there for.

I was in Tredegar last week, opening the Bevan Health and Wellbeing Centre. They have a co-located set of premises with a pharmacy. So if a patient calls the surgery, so to speak, they will get directed, very often, to go to the pharmacy first. So, I think it does rather depend on the network of local relationships and infrastructure, but I certainly think there is more that we can do. I hope that the national thrust behind the Help Us Help You campaign this year, with a particular focus on pharmacies, will remind people of the opportunity to get a more convenient appointment.

Thank you for your statement. There's lots to celebrate. It seems to me that winter planning is about, actually, preventative healthcare as much as it is about responsive healthcare. So, it's great to hear about the vaccination programme. I've booked in for my vaccination, the flu vaccine, tomorrow, at the Senedd. I hope there are quite a few people there, because we all, as you say, have to play our part in that as well. It's the first-time ever I've had the flu vaccine, so stand by and let's see what happens. [Laughter.]

I just wanted to make a point about our independent prescribers, who are within our community pharmacists, and how great they are. They just need more promotion, in order to ensure people do go to them, because they have such fantastic skills.

I also wanted to make a serious point about social care—you touched on it in your statement. It is absolutely about our hospitals—our front door and our back door—making sure that they have the opportunity to keep people out of those hospitals. I quoted the figure in Powys: 52 per cent of patients in hospitals in Powys, on 2 September, were ready to go home, but couldn't. So, I'm pleased to hear about the joint teams. Could you just say a little bit more about how you can promote those independent assessor teams and those joint teams to make sure that we get those plans right? Thank you.

Yes. Just to acknowledge the point that the Member made about independent prescribers, I think we're now at a place where about 50 per cent of our pharmacies are able to provide that service, so that's obviously a significant step forward. I think, from next year onwards, all pharmacists qualified in Wales will be graduating as an independent prescriber. So, there's a real—. There's a huge asset in our healthcare system, and we are seeing it making a difference. But as your question implies, there is obviously more that we can anticipate that independent prescribers can do, and they are very, very keen to be able to do that. I was speaking at the Royal Pharmaceutical Society conference in Cardiff last week, and the theme there was very much in this space—about how much more potential there is, in all kinds of settings, actually, but in this context, perhaps most importantly, community settings.

I think on the work in relation to the joint working in relation to faster discharge, what I think we've seen over the course of the last year as a result of the focus that I and the Minister for Children and Social Care have brought to learning from good practice in different parts of Wales is an increasing culture, I think it's fair to say, where regions are being readier to acknowledge where there are areas where they need to develop, but also highlighting where they've had particularly good success. So, I think we're seeing the emergence of just a more open learning culture. Now, clearly, that's not a one-off—that needs to be built on, and it needs to be embedded and maintained.

One of the areas where we know the most difference can be made is in the implementation of the trusted assessor model, and that is—. Parts of Wales have done very well in relation to that. I think it's true to say that there are other areas where our expectations are not being met yet, but we are due to get an outcome report of an audit that we've undertaken through NHS Wales Performance and Improvement to look at the evolution of the trusted assessor model in different parts of Wales. When we have the results of that we'll be able to see what adjustments we need to make in terms of our expectation. But the funding that we put in last year, which was £19 million, and the funding that we've been able to put in this year as a consequence of the budget agreement that we reached with the Member, of £30 million in addition, will support some of those interventions to take root, and that's obviously what we want to see.

We all know—. I worry about my constituents all year round, but we do know that, at this time of the year, it can be quite critical. Too often, I hear of patients who fall on the ground—and this is down to the ambulance trust, I realise that, but people are deteriorating. Over the winter—. I had one the other day, where a lady had had a stroke, and she waited five hours. What's happened to this golden hour that we were all told about? There were 6,073 red calls to ambulance services last December to January we saw. An average 196 immediately life-threatening calls are made each day. There were over 557,000 hits on the NHS 111 Wales website—the highest on record. I'm even now receiving complaints about that service, because of the time to answer. When somebody's not well, they just should not be kept waiting long.

I was really pleased to hear about your ambition for 45-minute handovers. That would be an absolutely luxury for us in the Betsi board. So, I ask for you to ensure that you speak to the Betsi board and make sure that they're aware of that target, because currently it's hours and hours that people are waiting, and in seats, chairs and things, in great pain. So, those potentially with—

You need to ask a question now, Janet, please. 

I am doing so. Those potentially with heart problems and serious coronary effects can actually deteriorate whilst they're waiting in an accident and emergency department. We know that you've taken out lots of beds over the years; have you thought of putting more beds back into our hospitals? After all, they are a healthcare setting, and that's where the beds need to be. Diolch.

I don't think I've met a person who has fallen who has been taken into hospital who is keen to be admitted and to have a hospital bed. Most patients I speak to want to get the most appropriate treatment for them. And actually what we know is that people get admitted for, maybe, a fall, and then actually once they're in the hospital setting, they can very often deteriorate from other causes. So, the panacea that the Member consistently presses on me of beds I'm afraid goes against the evidence that what we need to do is to support the best available service closest to the patient's home, and that's why the community falls response is so important. So, she asked me what we're doing in relation to that. We've invested further funding this year to health boards to step up those services. We have trained staff in both health and social care settings in falls management at level 1. And in support of its delivery of its falls response model, the Welsh ambulance service, which the Member referred to, has allocated additional funding to St John Ambulance Cymru so that they can support the ambulance service in the important work that they do. I think that it's really important that we provide this support to people who have fallen, wherever possible, in a way that does not require them to be conveyed to the emergency department and does not require them to be admitted. That's absolutely what most patients will want, to get the care they need without having to be admitted, without having to go to hospital.

Thank you very much for outlining all of the great things that you're doing to try to prevent people coming into hospital unnecessarily and also from getting sick in the first place. I'm still intrigued as to why somebody whose job it is to work with hundreds of people in front-line care, some of whom inevitably have infectious diseases, still are not getting themselves vaccinated. It really is incomprehensible.

But two questions: falls and the role of polypharmacy. How good are we at ensuring that people aren't continuing to take a cocktail of drugs, some of which are contradicting each other, just because they find it difficult to read the labels on the box or the bottles and they haven't got dosette boxes to know what they're supposed to be taking on which day. Secondly, hundreds of people are admitted to hospital who would much prefer to be staying at home with better community health nursing, and so I just wondered how we're doing on ensuring that every community has got its own nursing team who are able to visit the frail elderly people who obviously need continuous care.

I think both of those points are really important. In designing the community-based falls response, there has been pharmacy engagement in that, just to make sure that all of the relevant considerations, including the important points that the Member was making, are taken into account. There are some challenges in perfectly aligning that, as you would appreciate, but it's clear that a safe and comprehensive delivery of that kind of fall service needs to take that fully into account.

What we want to see is a strong community nursing service seven days a week supporting multidisciplinary teams. That's obviously what we want to see. We are seeing progress, partly as a result of the 50-day challenge, but other initiatives as well, to improve the availability of seven-day support. Obviously, there are challenges in delivering that, and it requires, at the moment, local negotiation in order to be able to accomplish that, as well as recruitment challenges.

We are actively supporting health boards now to expand community nursing services across the week through the Further Faster fund, which is worth about £11 million, and we are seeing that making a difference over the weekend, which is what we obviously want to be able to see. That funding is going up. We're starting to see the numbers coming up. I think one of the challenges in many parts of the NHS is that parts of it operate effectively as a five-day service, and, of course, as we will all know, people fall ill and have accidents seven days a week. And so moving progressively to that model I think is going to be fundamental in the years ahead.

Last winter, Dirprwy Lywydd, storm Bert and storm Darragh brought both heavy rain and high winds. We saw 768 properties flooded, thousands of properties without power and 40 properties evacuated following a coal tip failure. Only last month, indeed, there was flooding to residential and commercial properties across Wales, including in Swansea, Powys and Carmarthenshire. Obviously, this is very challenging, but we are adapting to this new normal. We are investing in resilient infrastructure, we are working with colleagues in the Met Office to improve how we respond to severe weather forecasts and Natural Resources Wales continues to review the triggers for its flood warnings and alerts. It is also working with communities to build understanding of what these warnings and alerts mean for them. 

As we prepare for future events, our national security and resilience team produces a biannual Wales resilience outlook. It summarises information on a range of known risks, including those associated with winter weather. This provides us with a consolidated view to facilitate informed resilience planning in Wales. The four local resilience forums in Wales each produce individual severe weather plans, including for the impacts of typical winter weather, identifying the risks and the mitigations needed in their areas.

As we approach the 2025–26 storm season, our winter preparedness strategy is shaped by the hard-earned lessons from storms Bert and Darragh and others. Following those storms, I chaired meetings with key agencies and responders to reflect, in a very short time and at scale, on what worked well and also where improvements were needed. Emergency repair works were swiftly delivered, and the insights that we gained have strengthened our ability to respond to future events. These events definitely underscored the importance of rapid co-ordination, resilient infrastructure and proactive planning ahead.

As we know, our most vulnerable communities and individuals are very often those who will be disproportionately impacted by incidents and emergencies, and so learning those lessons to inform our responses to the winter ahead is of paramount importance. For example, we learnt from the experience of storm Darragh, and work is now under way to improve the availability and the quality of data, particularly about vulnerable people, which can be accessed and shared more effectively with emergency responders.

Likewise, following the disruption caused by storm Darragh, electricity network operators have worked throughout the summer months to improve their resilience to winter weather by, for example, removing overhanging trees closest to power lines—some Members will have seen this happening—and investment to protect substations from floodwater. 

I just want to take this opportunity today, Dirprwy Lywydd, to highlight some of the important ways as well that the people of Wales can help prepare themselves for winter. With the risk of flooding increasing over the winter period, NRW is running its Be Flood Ready campaign—Be Flood Ready. It's encouraging people to take these three simple steps to help communities to be flood ready. One: check your flood risk by postcode online. It's easy to do. NRW's website has webpages where people, myself included, can check the risk of flooding to their property. This service also has an interactive map. Secondly, sign up for free flood warnings, from rivers and the sea. You can sign up via NRW's website or contact Floodline on 0345 988 1188 to receive flood warnings by e-mail or by voicemail or by text. And thirdly, be prepared for when flooding is forecast. NRW's webpages feature really practical advice for householders on what to do before and during and after a flood. So, I'd encourage anyone who's concerned about flooding to take advantage of these free resources from NRW.

Now, NRW is always making improvements to its flood warning service, which was supported, by the way, with £6 million of Welsh Government funding. So, customers can obtain their flood warnings by phoning Floodline or manage their accounts online and customise their warning preferences. They can tailor the message they receive as well, by the way, choosing to receive their warnings in Welsh or in English—all helping people get the most out of NRW's flood warning service.

NRW also runs volunteer network support events across Wales and it advises community groups on the completion and the testing of community flood plans. This is really important, because these enable communities to be more proactive and more resilient when faced with and in response to flooding. Advice and support about how to join a community flood group, along with a list of organisations who provide support, such as the National Flood Forum and the local resilience fora, are available on NRW's website.

And I also urge everyone at this juncture to look again at their house insurance. Standard home insurance policies do not necessarily cover flood damage. So, I advise householders to look at this right away, as new flood insurance policies can include a 30-day waiting period before they take effect. So, where householders are struggling to obtain flood insurance, they may not all be aware that there is a UK-wide scheme called Flood Re, which allows them to access affordable flood insurance. Now, this could include those households who've been refused insurance or they've been flooded in the past. The Flood Re website provides the details of dozens of insurers who can provide policies through the scheme, but I urge people—I urge people—shop around for the best deal.

There's another insurance initiative I want to highlight: the build back better scheme. It allows householders to install flood resilience measures up to a value of £10,000 when repairing homes after a flood, making them more flood resilient. Now, as householders prepare for the winter ahead, I do also want to express my thanks, Dirprwy Lywydd, to our tireless risk management authorities for their hard work. As we speak right now, local authorities and NRW will be carrying out checks on key infrastructure and reviewing emergency response capabilities. And it's through those risk management authorities that we continue to invest heavily in flood risk management. Last week I opened a £25 million flood protection scheme at Stevenson Street, the largest ever constructed by NRW. The scheme will provide additional flood protection to over 2,000 homes and businesses in Newport. And on Thursday I will be opening Denbighshire County Council's central Rhyl scheme. Central Rhyl has cost over £60 million and will benefit over 548 homes and 48 businesses. And if you include schemes at west Rhyl, east Rhyl and Prestatyn, we've invested there over £100 million in the last 10 years to keep communities in the area safe. This is not insignificant; it's a record level of funding. We made a programme for government commitment to fund improved flood protection to over 45,000 homes over the life of this Senedd term and, Dirprwy Lywydd, we are delivering on that promise.

And as we know, disused coal tips can also be affected by extreme weather. So, we also continue to work with local authorities, NRW and the Mining Remediation Authority to ensure the safety of disused coal tips in Wales. We've provided record funding to help make those coal tips safe, and joint Wales and UK Government investment now stands at over £220 million. The national programme of tip inspections ensures that sites of the greatest concern are inspected more regularly. So, since 2020, over 3,000 have been completed. I'm pleased to confirm that the recently-completed summer inspection of category D tips raised no immediate concerns, and the winter inspection programme will start next month.

Looking to the long term, we have delivered, of course, new primary legislation—the Disused Mine and Quarry Tip (Wales) Act 2025—which will protect the people and communities of Wales for many generations to come. But we are also ready for the new challenges that lie ahead. Welsh Government is working with partners to continue to deliver commitments in the Wales resilience framework, which sets the strategic vision to improve resilience right across Wales.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary, for this. I think, over the time I've been here and before, winter weather resilience was something that I don't think we ever thought we would be facing so soon in terms of the disparate measures we see now, in terms of—. In my area of Aberconwy on Monday, it was beautiful weather, but over the weekend we had floods all over Aberconwy. These are happening—. They are freak in nature, the way that they're happening now. We've suffered the devastating impacts of storms and flooding in recent years. You've mentioned storm Burt, storm Darragh. We've seen houses flooded, damage to the longest pier in Wales, Llandudno pier, and even the closure of our port at Holyhead.

There does need to be more focus and, I've got to be honest, I thought your statement was quite reassuring that these teams are all getting together. Do we still have the local flood forums? [Interruption.] We do. Okay, that's interesting to know, thanks. In 2024, 1,057 flood alerts were issued in Wales, the highest ever recorded. Two hundred and seventy-five thousand properties in Wales are still currently at risk of flooding from coastal erosion, and I'm sure the £600 million you're spending towards Rhyl will be really welcomed by those residents.

So, we've still got those 300,000 properties at risk due to coastal erosion and many more are vulnerable to river flooding, including the 700 properties that flooded during storm Burt. I wasn't aware of the Be Flood Ready campaign, but I'll be looking out for that. I may use it in one of my newspaper columns, because it's all well and good doing these initiatives, but if people don't know about it then it's not good for you as a Government.

So, we need to support our vulnerable households and I've noted the moneys you can obtain once you've been flooded, but I've asked before—. So many people ask me, 'All I want to do, Janet, is buy a floodgate for my property.' They have no idea where to get them from, how much they cost or anything. So, whether there could be some kind of initiative whereby these flood agencies contact everybody, or those most likely to flood, to see whether they would like a floodgate or where they can get them from—. It's been three years now, when it was the Minister previously, that I've been asking that.

The climate change committee, in its report, have said that we need to reconsider emergency funding for households, improve signposting to the flood insurance scheme, and embed mental health support into all this, because too often we have distressed people coming to us. They're worried about their own lives and their family, but also too their livelihoods. We have businesses who cease trading as a result of flood damage, and of course, your own home—if that's flooded, it's just unbelievable.

I think that more needs to be—and this was picked up in one of our climate change reports—more needs to be known about how flood alerts work. The Welsh Government needs to collaborate with NRW to improve public engagement with these alert systems, and provide clarity on when action should be taken. Because evidence that we heard in our committee revealed that many people felt let down by the flood alert systems. I tell you what, they were going off on my phone all the time, and e-mails—my phone was ringing on Sunday so many times telling me about the little flood areas. I saw that as a positive, actually. I do encourage you to work with our organisations to build awareness.

Basically, I was going to ask you—but you've already answered it for me—will you put prevention, protection and people at the heart of your winter resilience planning and implement this shared emergency contact list? And my final plea: please let us know, councillors know, when there are floods in their own area. We as MSs only find out about it when it's tweeted; it'd be good, as the local MS, if we were informed by the local resilience team. Thank you.

Janet, thank you very much indeed. Thank you for that contribution, which is wide ranging. You are right: they seem now freak in nature, but it is the new normal. We're getting it more frequently, it's more intense, more traumatic, and we're literally flipping from drought status into deluge, and, even though we work very closely with the Met Office and we look ahead on a three-month basis, the weather is increasingly unpredictable. So, we can expect now the unexpected. That's what we are seeing. I think it's important, in reflecting on that, Dirprwy Lywydd, how important it is for all of us to see what is happening here now with climate change and global warming, because no one incident is climate warming, but the direction of travel, the frequency, the intensity, is directly a result of the higher precipitation and drought, sometimes, caused by more moisture being carried in the air. So, we need to hold firm to our climate change ambitions and to tackle that, as well as being more resilient.

Local resilience fora, yes, they're still in place. The Be Flood Ready campaign, I'd urge you and all Members, yes, put that out in your newsletters and information and social media, so that individuals don't feel helpless. They can look at that advice about what to do before, in advance, during and after. And it really helps with those communities and individuals working together on a community response.

The funding is out there for those individual property flood resilience ones. So, they could be things like floodgates, flood doors, simple things. It could be things such as hard surfaces rather than carpeting, and advice on that, and helping with the investment. So, that funding is with the risk management authorities, which are the local authorities. So, again, in your newsletters, put that information out there. Contact your risk management authority, your local authority, talk about flood resilience measures on your individual business and property. And you will know—sorry, I'm just looking across at colleagues here—when we've been on the streets where people have been flooded, those businesses as well as households that have taken advantage of the money that we've made available through local authorities have been back in action within 24 hours. I've seen it with a coffee shop being up and running, serving people who are still cleaning their properties out, because they hadn't got them in, but we were saying to them, 'Take the money down; do it next time so you're ready'.

And the other thing is, as I mentioned, you should look at your insurance if you have been flooded, about the build back better approach. Because, again, insurers are really keen, if you've been flooded, to help fund you. It's up to £10,000 funding with these insurers to enable you to put your electricity points higher, put a hard surface in here rather than carpet and so on, and just think through how do you minimise the impact. So, thank you for your comments, and, yes, we will continue to put people and places, communities, right at the heart of our winter preparedness approach.

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Delyth, for those several points there. You're right on the psychological impact, from the visits that I've made to people who've been flooded in different parts of Wales. And of course, we're now seeing flooding happen in places we wouldn't expect it, surface water flooding, where places on tops of hills are being flooded, as well as in the valleys, with fast run-off down into those valleys, and within the hour, properties being flooded with no way of adequately informing them, regardless of flood warnings and so on. So, that psychological impact is massive, and it can be enduring as well. I know that I've met people with colleagues here, out meeting residents, and some properties are being repeatedly flooded. So, you're living with that dread of every time there's a deluge, and that's absolutely horrendous.

So, one of the things we have done, based on the feedback that we've heard from people across Wales, I have to say, is we've put additional revenue funding into the National Flood Forum, which enables them to have more of a presence in different areas where they can see there's a priority, including those communities that are being flooded more regularly, and where the fear is more. I think we also have to look at that wider psychological support that's out there within the community, including for our young people, because it's horrible with the one-off flooding, but when you're living in constant fear of it, I think we do need to make sure that that wider support that Welsh Government is putting in place for mental health support and so on is available to all people, but particularly young people as well, who must be not just fearful, but utterly confused about what is happening with this.

You mentioned the Cwmtillery issue. I mean, it was a signal moment there when I was up at Cwmtillery, and it's quite a thing when you're standing there in the darkness in the morning, and you're up to your shins in dark, cold slurry, and you're thinking, 'Well, it's up against that house there as well.' It leaves a long memory with you. But what happened there was an absolute reflection of the intensity of the rainfall. I was told that the culvert, which was known of—there was a culvert there—there was as much as 25 times the discharge through that culvert as should have been going through there. So, it blew that culvert apart. So, that's why they're now there, as part of our investment, actually making good that edge of that tip there, and surveying the rest of it.

You rightly say, 'Well, what happens with the other tips?' Well, based on the best expertise available, those category D tips, there's the message of reassurance. We can never guarantee everything, but the fact that we're in there now twice annually, monitoring physically on the ground those category D tips, some of which are not close to populations, by the way, but monitoring them, but it's also the drone surveillance that we do on top of that. It's the in-ground electronic monitoring with indicators in the ground. There's a lot of technology on.

So, we will keep on doing that, and we will keep discussing with the UK Government. We're pleased that we've got to a point where we have over £220 million, and we've got a UK Government recognising their responsibility, but we know that we will have to go back to them and say, 'And beyond this two, three years, we're going to need to do more and more.' Figures have been talked about, estimates have been talked about, figures around £600 million. That may or may not be accurate, but we do know a lot more will be needed, and we think it should be a partnership between what we can put in here in Wales—. Bear in mind, we put in over £100 million before a UK Government ever stepped up to help us, so we're committed to it. So, we will keep on doing that. But, you're right, the psychological impact often gets overlooked in this. We need to prepare for this, actually put people back on their feet with their homes and their businesses after it, but also look at the psychological issue of this, and help people build resilience that way as well.

Thank you for your statement, and I welcome the £100 million that has been spent over 10 years in Rhyl and Prestatyn, protecting hundreds, possibly thousands of homes and businesses there from flooding. I recall, as a councillor, dealing with unexpected volumes of snow and then monsoon-like rain during autumn and winter. The public rely on public services, like our councils, to help protect them and keep highways open.

Some ditches and culverts are not council property, but fall under private landowners. People don't realise. Now, following years of austerity, council services are stretched to the bone. Do you agree that funding is needed in councils' reserves to deal with unexpected snow storms, freezing conditions, winter maintenance and floods? And would you help councils by highlighting that landowners themselves are responsible for ensuring there is not run-off from their land onto the public highway—it's not all just councils' responsibility—and that they need to keep their own ditches and culverts clear?

Thank you very much, Carolyn, for those questions there. I don't want to trespass on any individual local authority, but you are right on the principle. Sometimes you need those reserves for those unexpected eventualities. So, sometimes, when you hear the calls for councils to empty their reserves, that is ignorant of the fact that that's what those reserves are there for—for those contingencies that will sometimes land upon them.

It's worth flagging up in this as well, as you know from previous storm incidents, that we do have the emergency financial assistance scheme within Welsh Government that we can call on if the storms are of a significant severity. But under storm Bert and storm Darragh, with the good offices of my colleague the finance Secretary, we went above and beyond that, and made sure that, where the intensity was greatest, we actually stepped in with more funding, which we were able to find. I'm not saying that we can do that every time, but we will try and do it.

In terms of the ownership of ditches, riparian ownership of watercourses and rivers, thank you again for raising this. It is really important that we keep emphasising that anyone who owns land or property that either contains or is next to a river, a stream or a ditch is a riparian owner, myself included, because I've got one flowing through my garden. So, the principles of ownership have been established in common law for over 200 years, but recent discussions around flood risk management here in the Senedd suggest that many landowners are just simply unaware of the concept. So, NRW has produced—and let's put it on record here again—a guidance document that explains to landowners how it works, how it might affect them, and what their responsibilities are. So, I strongly encourage Members—I'm doing this to all Members today, Janet and everybody else—to share that guidance from NRW for riparian landowners, on their roles and responsibilities in managing flood risk. Because this is about collective resilience, everybody playing their part, and that includes the maintenance of watercourses and associated assets, including ditches, which need to be maintained to the best possible condition. My one in my garden, by the way, is, just to point that out.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I really appreciate today's statement. It is really important for so many people across Wales who, as you've rightly said, are fearful every time it rains heavily, and rightfully so, given the extreme weather we're seeing. Just in terms of the Be Flood Ready campaign, I fully support this, of course I do, but if we look at the National Infrastructure Commission for Wales's report around flooding, it talked about the need to do more in terms of building resilience. You reference, in your statements, community flood plans, community flood groups, but these don't exist in every part of Wales. They certainly don't exist in every community that does suffer frequent flooding. We don't have a Welsh flood forum and it's very limited how the National Flood Forum is able to work here in Wales.

So, for those communities where there are no flood plans, where there are no community flood groups, how do you suggest they can have these plans in place? Because, for instance, I can think of plenty of instances where people have done everything possible themselves, but they still require authorities and others to step up and provide that support. Not every community can make themselves resilient, and with some of the investments it's going to take a very long time for them to see any benefits. So, how do we support them, where they are ready, but they just can't cope with it?

You are absolutely right. There is a social justice issue under this as well, because I've seen it in my own area, where some communities are very ready and able to step up and they will go to the NRW site, look at the free guidance that's available, speak to the local resilience fora and say, 'Right, how do we, all together, be ready for what we do during it and help each other then, in the aftermath of it as well?' I've seen this in place, and if you go to places—. There's really commendable work that's been done in places like Skenfrith, for example, but there are a lot of people there who are switched on to this and right into it.

The challenge comes in those communities where that capacity isn't readily available, but it is there—I would argue that it is there—but it needs additional support. I think there is a role here, with the assistance of the additional revenue funding that we put into the National Flood Forum, to work with those communities in particular, but also with local elected representatives. I've found it myself in my own area, sometimes, I get local representatives who are really switched on and go, 'Yes, absolutely, I see my role in that; I will bring the community together, I will work with them and we will be an ever-present force of good here to prepare for flood events, and so on, in how we do it.' And then, in other areas, it's more tricky. So, there's the challenge. It isn't just to do with money; I think it's getting a mindset now as well, across the whole of Wales, faced with what we're now faced with, to say, 'How do we replicate?'

There are some interesting discussions, and Plaid Cymru are putting forward ideas about how we strengthen a national flood forum. We're investing in the National Flood Forum now to prioritise where they need to go and work with communities. I think there is something to do, in the future, in looking at how you make sure that that is embedded everywhere, without being prescriptive, because it will differ from place to place. But I would like to see every community in a position where they either have the capacity or they are enabled to step up with support and be flood-ready. But for right here, right now, I would say, 'Look to what the National Flood Forum is doing; look to that Be Flood Ready advice and don't be afraid, then, to pick up the phone to your MS or your local elected representative and say, "How do we make this happen? Can we get on with it, because we shouldn't be left out on a limb here?"'

So, there is support available, there is funding available. I think we need to spread the word, quite frankly, that there is a model of community fora that exists, and it's how we get it out to more places. And the social justice angle, I'm very taken with. I have seen it work, by the way, in my own area; we've got places like the top of Garth, which is the side of a mountain, but it's been flooded by run-over. But coming together with the local authority and others and the councillors and residents, my goodness, they've made a difference there. We just need to replicate that. And that is not an affluent area; that is not an area with lots of retired professionals and whatever, but they just got the seriousness of it and everybody came together. So, we need to do more of that. Thank you.

Diolch yn fawr, Dirprwy Lywydd. Tackling fuel poverty remains a key commitment to this Welsh Government. As we head into another winter with high energy costs and wider pressures on household incomes, we recognise the challenges that many families across Wales are facing. Although energy costs have fallen since their peak in 2022, they remain well above pre-crisis levels and continue to disproportionately impact vulnerable households.

I wrote to all MSs and MPs in July, highlighting the targeted support we are providing to those who need it most. We know that winter can be a challenging time for households today, so I'm announcing an extra £940,000 for local authorities to distribute for their emergency food support, and an additional £600,000 to support the provision of warm and safe spaces within the local communities across Wales. The latest fuel poverty estimates highlight the scale of the challenge. In October 2024, 340,000 households, 25 per cent, were in fuel poverty, with a further 215,000, 16 per cent, at risk. Our support is multipronged, helping people to claim every pound they're entitled to, improving the energy efficiency of our homes, offering emergency relief to households in crisis, and funding warm and welcoming spaces and hubs in the heart of communities across Wales.

During the recent debate on the Equality and Social Justice Committee report 'Turning up the heat before 2160: time to pick up the pace on tackling fuel poverty', I urged anyone on a low income struggling to keep their home warm to get in touch with our free Nest advice service and our 'Claim what's yours' network, to ensure that they have help before the winter arrives. Energy suppliers are also required to support customers finding themselves in financial hardship, and are obliged to help vulnerable customers explore steps to manage debt levels. I reiterated these messages at a recent meeting of the cross-party group on fuel poverty and energy efficiency, whose membership includes organisations across Wales who work tirelessly to support those in need. It's important we reach out and make people aware that support is available.

We're investing more than £30 million in our Nest scheme this year to improve the energy efficiency of fuel-poor homes by reducing bills and carbon emissions. The scheme can reduce bills and lower greenhouse gas emissions through quality-assured installations. Each eligible household receives a whole-house assessment by a qualified retrofit assessor, a sample of which are reviewed by our independent quality assurance service. This ensures the recommended measures deliver the best energy and carbon savings, and that the needs of the householders are considered. As part of the new contract for Nest, we've launched an independent energy advice service, which is accessible to all households across Wales and offers practical guidance on improving energy efficiency and reducing energy bills. Our Climate Action Wales website also hosts information on home energy, including free or low-cost steps to making homes cosy this winter.

As we approach the winter months, our Nest advisers are working actively across Wales to raise awareness of the support available to households experiencing fuel poverty. They're promoting Nest across all social media platforms and collaborating with all local authorities to deliver targeted direct mail campaigns. Almost 11,000 households across four local authorities—Cardiff, Newport, Gwynedd and Bridgend—received direct mail on Nest in September alone. Similar work is planned with six further local authorities over the winter months. The Nest team have worked with local authorities in Bridgend, Torfaen and Monmouthshire to use low-income family tracker data to target support for low-income families who are more likely to be living in fuel poverty. Work is under way to secure direct mail activity in the remaining local authorities across Wales.

The Nest partner development managers work with our front-line staff across a whole range of stakeholder organisations to ensure they're aware of the support available through Nest and know how to refer customers for help. Newsletters have been issued to 755 partner organisations to date. A high level of referrals to the scheme through the summer months has proved encouraging, allowing these households to receive the necessary advice and support before the cold weather arrives. The delivery service, including crisis support for people without heating or hot water, is geared up to respond to a surge in demand as people try to use their heating for the first time over the winter.

We're also acting to tackle fuel poverty by putting more money into people's pockets, boosting incomes, strengthening financial resilience—top priorities for this Government. We're determined to make sure everyone in Wales gets every pound they're entitled to. Our benefits take-up campaign is making a real difference. Awareness of financial support is growing and more people are getting the help they need. We've increased the discretionary assistance fund for 2025-26 by £1 million to £39.5 million, continuing our commitment to provide support to households across Wales who continue to face extreme financial hardship.

The fund provides contributions throughout the year towards costs of oil and gas, supporting our rural communities. Our funding has enabled the Fuel Bank Foundation to introduce a national fuel voucher and heat fund scheme in Wales, and the scheme has provided support to eligible households that prepay for their fuel and are at risk of disconnection. This includes the provision of fuel vouchers for homes with prepayment meters, and deliveries of oil or gas for those not connected to the mains gas network.

Another part of our ongoing support is our funding for safe and warm hubs, which provide warm and safe spaces in the community where people can find company and get a range of advice and assistance. With the additional funding I've announced, this will bring our investment in the safe and warm hubs initiative to over £4.6 million since 2022, supporting over 600 warm hubs in the heart of our communities across Wales. Yesterday, I visited one of these spaces in the Llandaff North and Gabalfa hub to demonstrate the year-round value they offer as a result of Welsh Government funding. The hubs provide a fantastic opportunity for people in the local community to connect with others, stay warm, and access advice services in a friendly and supportive environment.

I'll end this statement, Deputy Llywydd, by reiterating that this Welsh Government recognises the struggles people are facing, and we are here to help. I ask all Members and anyone watching this who knows someone who could benefit from our support to encourage your constituents, your neighbours and friends to get in touch. Diolch yn fawr.

Thank you for your statement, Cabinet Secretary. Keeping people warm this winter has to be a priority if we are to avoid putting lives at risk or placing additional strain on our already overwhelmed health services. Sadly, the number of people in fuel poverty in Wales has skyrocketed. According to National Energy Action Cymru, over four in five low-income households in Wales are living in fuel poverty. Ed Miliband promised to cut household energy bills by £300, but the price cap has continued to rise under his leadership. Ofgem estimates household energy debt is over £4 million, more than double pre-crisis levels. So, Cabinet Secretary, you are right: these are challenges, and we need action on warm homes. Whilst I welcome the additional funding you have announced today, how much of it will do anything to keep people warm this coming winter?

Cabinet Secretary, do you agree that warm hubs are a poor substitute for warm homes? While I welcome the original investment in the Nest scheme, many households, particularly in my constituency, are wary about the Welsh Government's energy efficiency schemes. How will you reassure people living in places like Caerau, whose homes were blighted by previous schemes, that Nest is different, that dodgy insulation schemes are no more?

Cabinet Secretary, what steps are you taking to ensure that solutions that are offered by Nest are suitable for our ageing housing stock? You mentioned in your statement that 11,000 households were direct-mailed last month. How many of those households have been in touch with Nest advisers? There's nothing in your statement that directly addresses the challenges facing those off-grid households, and as you well know, those who rely upon heating oil or LPG are at greater risk of fuel poverty. What specific support is being made available to those households?

Cabinet Secretary, you state that you're tackling fuel poverty by putting more money into people's pockets, but of course, this is mainly outside of your control. The Chancellor of the Exchequer controls the purse strings, and all signs point to a harsh budget next month. Cabinet Secretary, what discussions have you had with Rachel Reeves about protecting the Welsh public from tax rises and welfare cuts in order to prop up a flagging UK economy? Have you specifically raised the issue of fuel poverty in Wales?

Finally, Cabinet Secretary, a big driver of fuel poverty and soaring energy bills are Ed Miliband's green subsidies. Have you urged him to abandon those schemes in order to cut bills? Diolch yn fawr.

Diolch yn fawr, Altaf Hussain. Thank you for those questions. You will all have seen today that we've got a number of Government statements that ensure that we're aligning all our efforts across the Government in terms of health and social care. It's all about prevention, health and social care, resilience in terms of prospects of flooding as a result of climate change, and, indeed, my statement as well in terms of tackling poverty, all aligning to show the priorities of this Government in terms of taking action.

There were many questions. I won't be able to answer them all. But you did mention the point about the price cap, and I recently met with Ofgem. I wrote to all Senedd Members, you will have received my letter, to update them on what Ofgem had to say. The 2 per cent price cap increase in October will see energy bills rise from £1,720 to £1,755, a rise of around £2.93 a month for the average household. I did say how concerned we were as a Government in terms of the impact on households already struggling to meet essential costs.

Of course, one point that they made back—and you referred to the UK Government—is that half of the increase will be directly used to support households struggling to pay their bills, through the extension of the Warm Homes discount, which actually will ensure that bill payers receiving means-tested benefits are now eligible for a £150 electricity bill rebate. It's estimated 110,000 Welsh households will receive this payment.

Of course, there are a number of other issues I raised with Ofgem, but I addressed those in my letter, in terms of the points that I made. I think it was a very important development. We started the funding for warm hubs and spaces back when the impact of the cost-of-living crisis was having such an adverse effect on households, and I'm very pleased that I was able to announce further funding today for our warm hubs and spaces. Of course, those are being used by the third sector, by community groups, by local authorities, in a most creative way. It's an additional £600,000 that I've announced today, supporting warm and safe spaces within local communities. But also, this is about supporting households in terms of their needs, so it is important that I've also increased the emergency food support as well for households.

I've already given in my statement quite a few figures about households who are directly being contacted by Nest, 11,000 households across four local authorities, as I've already mentioned. What's important is this all links up to the work we're doing with our Welsh benefits charter, with our work with Policy in Practice for local authorities to use that low-income family tracker data to actually target support. That's where we need to reach those low-income families more likely to live in fuel poverty, to make sure that they have access to the information so that the local authorities can target them directly.

You raised the issue of funding and support for off-grid households, and, again, in my statement, I was able to highlight the funding that we're putting into the discretionary assistance fund, which is available for off-grid fuel. And the discretionary assistance fund, as I've said, we've increased that fund this year, but also, it's important that we've also funded the Fuel Bank Foundation. I recall when we developed that partnership with the Fuel Bank Foundation, and I think we learned about it from Gordon Brown, who was actually spearheading this in Scotland, and the warm spaces and warm initiatives as well. The Fuel Bank Foundation introduced, as I said, the heat fund scheme in Wales. This is actually providing support for those who are not connected to the mains gas network. It does include deliveries of oil and gas for those affected.

In terms of the Warm Homes Nest scheme, it is already making an impact. I won't go back over the points that I made, but I will just address your point about area-based schemes. Officials are developing options for decarbonising within geographical areas, as a complementary approach to the demand-led scheme. They are looking at that spread of energy inefficiency, housing, potential technology solutions, impacts on economies of scale, and supporting remedial work to houses in some areas, for example where there has been ill-fitting external wall insulation, resulting in issues for home owners.

Our work on schemes in Caerau, Bridgend and Arfon are progressing well. So, I think that my statement covers many of the points that you made. But it is important that these are ways in which we are working together across Government to tackle fuel poverty, to see that this is a way in which we can support those who are affected.

I do think that it is important to also recognise that over three quarters of pensioners in England and Wales with an annual income of £35,000 or below will now also be eligible for the winter fuel payment this winter. We certainly called for that as a Government.

Thank you very much, Sioned Williams. I absolutely agree with you, people have a right in Wales to live in warm and safe homes, and also to be able to engage in activities outside their home. I would say, in response to your point about support for warm spaces and warm hubs, what's interesting—and I'm sure you've all been to them in your constituencies—is that they're places where people want to go to do things together, to socialise, to have access to refreshments, to advice services. The hub I visited in Cardiff, actually, I think is a real example. There are 21 hubs, which are taking—. Yes, our grant funding is helping these initiatives, but as you walk through the door, you've got a coffee shop on the left, you've got affordable food, you've got advice services, you've got a library service, you've got a community hall with groups meeting, money advice services, you've got computers everywhere, a job shop, and the real feeling of optimism and entitlement. I think that's the point. It's about entitlement to places where people can meet together. I think that's something that, hopefully, you will be also doing: visiting those centres in your area.

Just on the fuel poverty estimates, we did have that updated headline, and we discussed this in the cross-party group—the fuel poverty estimates, published on 7 August. The publication of detailed fuel poverty analysis is due for 16 October, so that's forthcoming next week. It's based on the Welsh housing conditions survey and has modelled information from administrative data to reflect recent changes to household income and fuel prices.

It's important that we publish the updated fuel poverty dashboard at the same time, when we get the figures, to ensure that we have as up-to-date information as possible for those who rely on the data. But we must use every tool available—and I've been through this in my statement—to help households cope with their energy bills, to keep them warm and safe in their homes. This, of course, includes that £35 million this financial year to the Warm Homes Nest scheme. It does include a crisis route, providing emergency support to households without heating or hot water. It includes a free impartial advice service for households to access the most appropriate scheme for their individual circumstances. 

I've already mentioned, of course, access to other sources of support and finance, like our discretionary assistance fund, and also the Fuel Bank Foundation. I think it's important as well that we recognise that the fuel poverty estimates help us to develop a meaningful energy efficiency-based target. That target will help improve the energy efficiency of fuel-poor homes, will lead to lower bills for householders and improve thermal comfort as well. We don’t hold all the levers.

I just wanted to move swiftly, Deputy Llywydd, to your question about social tariff. This is something that we have called for consistently and repeatedly—for the introduction of a social tariff to protect the most vulnerable households. I do welcome, for OVO, Green Alliance's recent publication on the case for a social tariff to address fuel poverty. I raised this with Ofgem. Of course, it is for Ofgem to engage in discussions with the UK Government on the development of a social tariff for further protection of vulnerable households. We’ve called, of course, for this across the Chamber, I think. This is something where we had cross-party support.

We’d like to see a holistic review of retail energy charges to include the reform of standing charges, and there is consultation on that. Standing charges will disadvantage—. Particularly the highest standing charges in north Wales, where there is also the highest level of renewable energy, which is not benefiting people in north Wales—. I hope Members will see the importance of responding to the Ofgem consultation to reduce standing charges as well.

This is something where I also mentioned energy suppliers. They’ve got a key role and responsibility to support their customers. I meet with them, and we expect companies to work with customers who are struggling rather than pushing them towards disconnection.

These, again, are all of the ways in which we are seeking to support people in terms of tackling fuel poverty. We want to know that this approach is multipronged, helping people claim every pound they are entitled to, improving energy efficiency of homes, offering emergency relief, and funding warm and welcoming spaces in the heart of our communities.

I was very pleased that the Cabinet Secretary visited the Llandaff North and Gabalfa hub in Cardiff North yesterday, which provides warmth and company for the local community. As the Cabinet Secretary said, this was originally a stand-alone library, but now there are so many fantastic opportunities there for different activities. She mentioned the very well-used, fantastic cafe that is also there. I do commend Cardiff Council for their investment in this hub and in the other hubs throughout Cardiff, and of course the Welsh Government investment. I really welcome the extra funding that the Cabinet Secretary has announced today, in particular the £600,000 for warm and safe spaces.

Last year I visited a warm hub in St Andrew's church in Birchgrove, so I think warm hubs can be in many different settings. I understand that this group that was formed has continued to meet throughout the year. Can the Cabinet Secretary give us any other examples of warm hubs that have led to long-term activities in the places that they have been based? Because I think these hubs mean much more than warmth. They also mean company.

Thank you very much, Julie Morgan. When I was visiting the hub in Llandaff North and Gabalfa—they have taken advantage, as the funding has gone to local authorities, of our warm hubs, warm spaces funding. They were saying in the summer it is a good place to be. In fact, you need to be cool in the summer, and they have that wonderful little garden in the middle of the hub and community hall. So many things are going on in the hub, including, of course, many activities for children. I could see there’s a whole range of things planned for half-term, Halloween, workshops, police community support officers—all the partnerships involved. Indeed, the cafe was run by Lew, who also runs the cafe in the Ely hub in Cardiff West as well.

Just a very positive point is that research from Swansea University into Swansea warm hubs has shown that they played a significant role in fostering social connections, alleviating loneliness and enhancing users' overall well-being. I also visited a space in Ton Pentre that was also run by a voluntary group, particularly supporting veterans as well. Of course, at that centre in Ton Pentre there are refreshments and games being played, music also. It's a place where people are enjoying learning lots of new creative opportunities, as well as getting advice and guidance. So, they've really blossomed into something that is a feature of Wales. 

Thank you very much for your statement, Cabinet Secretary. I can't be the only one here who thinks it's quite sad that people have to go to a warm hub in order to keep warm in the winter. It's great that there are activities and that loneliness is addressed, but that can be done in other ways via a community centre, and you've talked about the summer activities. Warm hubs are places people go to and they go home to a cold place. That has to be wrong, and, although I hear the good things about them, I actually don't think it's something to massively celebrate that we have warm hubs that people go to in order to, fundamentally, just look after themselves.

I spoke in the earlier debate on the NHS and social care in winter, and we know that cold homes contribute significantly to health conditions. So, there must be some joined-up thinking here that is going on. I'd like to ask you, Cabinet Secretary: one of the things that's been asked for is that we have interim targets. You've got targets—and I love targets—by 2035, but I'd like to ask you to consider interim targets, so that we actually get on and move on making homes that people live in 24 hours a day warmer. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Diolch yn fawr, Jane Dodds. Yes, I think that many of the hubs, warm spaces—they don't call themselves hubs, or some of them do—actually are in community centres, churches, and I think one of the things that happened with the pandemic was that many of these places virtually closed down that were already offering luncheon clubs, places for people to meet, so they were part of the community. We responded, didn't we, in the cost-of-living crisis post pandemic to see if this would be taken up. It was piloted, in fact, and I remember going to a constituency where the local authority and communities had just taken off, and there were 300 opened. I remember meeting younger parents saying, 'This is a place where we like to come together.' So, of course, it has to be seen in the context of community provision in Wales, which we're also enhancing.

You're right that we need to have meaningful energy efficiency based targets. I've mentioned that already. We want to have that energy efficiency based target. Now we've got the estimates, and we wait for 16 October to get those final details and then to move forward, in terms of our fuel poverty estimates, into targets for our fuel poverty plan. We have a fuel poverty advisory group that works very closely with the cross-party group on fuel poverty.

So, it is something I hope you will see, and Members will have seen today, that we have had a joined-up approach to addressing preparations for the winter, definitely, in terms of Welsh Government support and aligning everything. But there's no doubt that the £35 million in the Warm Homes Nest scheme to assist those people on low incomes living in cold, damp homes with free energy efficiency measures, affordable low-carbon heating solutions, has got to be the answer, hasn't it, to enable people to go from a warm home to a community space. So, again, we hope we see the outcomes of all the engagement that Nest and the independent advisers are making to good effect.

Thank you. I just want to give a shout out for warm hubs. I'm not disagreeing with Jane Dodds at all, but I have many constituents who've been recently widowed and they find it really difficult to motivate themselves to actually prepare a hot meal, and, as a result, they become ill. And many people who have declining health find it very difficult to stand at a cooker and cook a proper meal. So, I think it's really important that, as well as a warm place to socialise, we also have a place where people can purchase a properly prepared hot meal as well during the winter, because I think that's one of the things that will keep people out of hospital. So, my question around that would be: how many of the 600 warm hubs are able to serve freshly prepared hot food so that we can have some sort of strategy for ensuring that they all can?

And secondly, I just wondered, on the specifics of Cardiff Council having sent out e-mails or direct mail to people, as they're not part of policy and practice, how were they able to target the information on the people we think are those who are in most need? Because, to my knowledge, they are not part of the low-income family tracker, and it's something I am going to raise with the leader of Cardiff Council, to find out why that is. Thank you.

Thank you very much for those questions, and just to say, again, we're linking up—. I've announced more money for local authorities for their emergency food support, which, of course, can be used much more creatively than just giving money to foodbanks, and this makes me link up to our investment—and the Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for climate change is here with me—. The joint partnership funding into our food partnerships for every local authority is doing the most amazing things across Wales. I went to a lunch in Carmarthen recently in a church hall that is run by the local sir Gâr food partnership. The lunches are provided by a local restaurant—the chef goes once a week, makes a meal, and people just come in and they pay, or they don't pay, for a very good lunch. Yesterday, in Gabalfa, Llandaff North and, indeed, other hubs in Cardiff, they are doing meals—very affordable meals as well—in the cafe, as well as coffee, snacks et cetera. Lots of food luncheon clubs closed during the pandemic; some of them are gradually starting up again. So, I'm going to particularly go out and ask local authorities—and I'm meeting our food partnership co-ordinators—to say, and, through the voluntary sector, 'Can we create more hot meals in these centres?'

You have raised the point about—. When I met the cabinet member yesterday, Peter Bradbury, about ways in which they were targeting people, not just for Nest, but other access to financial support, he was very supportive of our Welsh benefits charter. He was very—. Local authorities are using the LIFT tracker and beginning to use the policy LIFT tracker. Even if they're not part of our partnership of 12 authorities, others are joining in. They want to know who's vulnerable. Indeed, energy suppliers need to know who's vulnerable. Indeed, again, with the flooding issue as well for households, all local authorities—. We need to know who's vulnerable, and we need to make sure that, like the Nest partner development managers—755 partner organisations refer customers for help. So, we really need to know the needs of our population and reach out to ensure that they get the help that they need.

Diolch yn fawr, Dirprwy Lywydd. Capital funding, which is the subject of this statement, has been a matter of public debate throughout the devolution era. Early Welsh Governments decided not to adopt the PFI models advanced by the UK Governments of the time, and we were often criticised for not doing so. The wisdom of that decision, however, has long been borne out.

Today, Wales suffers neither from the stranded assets that have occurred in England, nor do we face the ongoing disputes that surround the return to public ownership of facilities from PFI stewardship. Most of all, we have not faced the crippling impacts on resource budgets that PFI repayments have caused and continue to cause elsewhere.

Now, Dirprwy Lywydd, that choice was only possible because of the rapid increases in public funds, including capital, which occurred over the first decade of devolution. All that came to an end, however, with the onset of the long years of austerity. In that flawed and failed policy, perhaps the most foolish aspect of all was the refusal of successive Conservative Governments to take advantage of globally low interest rates to bolster capital spending in the UK economy in the post 2010 era. That missed opportunity was largely a story of neglecting the factors that drive productivity and economic growth, including the vital role of public investment. In that era of capital starvation, successive Welsh Governments adhered to a simple capital hierarchy in which we always use the cheapest money first. We begin always with conventional capital. Only when that has been deployed to the maximum do we turn to the different forms of capital borrowing. And only when that has been exhausted, and necessary capital projects remain unfunded, have we turned to the creation and deployment of the mutual investment model, a model that has now enabled an additional £1.14 billion in public assets—investment that simply would not have happened had we not developed the MIM.

Let me put, Dirprwy Lywydd, that additional investment in context. Over this term, our capital budgets have totalled around £15 billion. The mutual investment model has therefore allowed us to bolster our capital spending by some 7.5 per cent. Or, measured in another way, investment using the model has been equal to 114 per cent of the total amount of capital borrowing that the Welsh Government is permitted to undertake. This is no insignificant sum, Llywydd. The additional benefits of the spending can be measured in terms of more reliable and safer journey times on the Heads of the Valleys road; significantly reduced carbon emissions from an educational estate of which our communities can be and are proud; and twenty-first century cancer care at the Velindre NHS Trust.

Over the course of this Senedd term, we have published two extensive reports, providing detailed information on each of our mutual investment model schemes as their respective procurement exercises concluded. Today, I can just set out for Members some of this information in the aggregate.

As I've said, we have attracted additional investment of over £1 billion in public infrastructure. That includes £590 million to complete the dualling of the A465—that was completed on time and on budget on 30 May this year; £65 million has been invested in the new Flintshire all-through school campus at Mynydd Isa, which was completed in April this year; £53 million has enabled three new primary schools in Rhondda Cynon Taf, all of which are now operational; £312 million is being used to deploy at the new Velindre cancer centre—that centre is now being built—and, most recently, we've agreed £119 million for the Cardiff and Vale College's two-campus project, comprising an advanced technology centre at Cardiff Airport and a Barry waterfront campus. That project also is now in construction.

These investments would simply not have been achievable from our traditional capital budgets, constrained as they have been. Now, I acknowledge, of course, that there are always opportunity costs to borrowing. But the careful deployment of the mutual investment model means that the impact on future resource budgets will be manageable. At the peak of our spending on current MIM schemes—that is, in 2028-29—the cost will equate to around 0.4 per cent of our total resource budget. I am confident that this is both achievable and desirable, allocating a modest amount of resource to fund additional investment in capital that otherwise would not have taken place.

All of that, Llywydd, is additionally reinforced by the made-in-Wales design features of the model, which distinguishes it from earlier PFI models. In the first place, the Welsh Government takes an equity stake of up to 20 per cent in each MIM scheme, doing so through the medium of the Development Bank of Wales. That equity stake achieves two benefits: first, the Development Bank of Wales acts as a material shareholder, representing the public interest on the board of each project company contracted to deliver mutual investment model schemes, and that provides due diligence in investment decision making and transparency during the operations of a company. And that equity stake also ensures that the public sector can earn a return on investment in the infrastructure, and that can then be recycled for further and additional investment.

Now, Llywydd, it has been a distinguishing feature of our approach that partners take responsibility only for hard facilities management. A complex bundle of services, which were a feature of earlier models, have not been replicated in the MIM. These aspects remain firmly on the public side of this partnership.

And so it is, Llywydd, that we have invested a total of approximately £22 million in MIM schemes to date, using financial transactions capital. Modelling suggests that every £1 invested as public equity in a mutual investment model project will earn more than £3 back in return. The Development Bank of Wales will provide regular updates about these investments; information that we will continue to make available through our periodic MIM reports.

And through the model, we have also ensured that wider public policy objectives are both pursued and delivered. The contracts that we agree are organised around the 'something for something' principle, with clear obligations on partners to deliver community benefits. These requirements have led to exemplary outcomes, such as the Academi website, a platform designed by the Welsh Education Partnership Company to deliver science, technology, engineering and mathematics courses for companies and individuals throughout Wales, or the Future Valleys A465 community initiatives project, which has helped fund not-for-profit groups and organisations in the Valleys area. The published model reports provide additional information about how the MIM has been able to leverage additional investment in our people and communities through the use of that community-benefits policy, alongside the hundreds of millions of pounds spent in the local supply chain and the hundreds of jobs taken up by local people.

Llywydd, there is, of course, a question as to whether the model will continue to be deployed in future. That will rightly be a decision for a new Government following Senedd elections next year, but it is clear to me that demands for new investment will not cease and, despite the recent additions to our public capital budgets, our ability to meet every need in that way will continue to be constrained. Of course, as a Government, we continue to make the case for greater access to traditional capital through increased borrowing. The Welsh Government should have access to capital through a prudential regime, in which the Welsh Ministers determine effective levels of borrowing. In the meantime, I remain pleased that Wales has developed and deployed a model of investment that is both innovative and socially responsible; a model on which future Welsh Ministers can depend as a means to attract additional investment in public infrastructure; and to accelerate such investment where traditional capital is otherwise unavailable. Diolch yn fawr.

I'd like to open by thanking the Cabinet Secretary for his statement here this afternoon and for an advance copy of the information within it. So, thank you, Cabinet Secretary. And also perhaps share mild enjoyment of things like mutual investment models, which may be dry to many people, but actually are a really important part of how we deliver important services here in Wales.

I have a few broader points before I look at some specifics within this, because we also recognise the importance of investing in modern infrastructure for our schools, hospitals and transport networks. On this side of the Chamber, we would continue to support innovative models like this that can deliver those real, tangible benefits for our communities.

I just want to make a couple of points on what the Cabinet Secretary opened with in terms of PFI. He's right, of course, to point to the fact that Welsh Government decided not to adopt the PFI models, but there were, of course, public bodies within Wales who did choose to use PFI. I'm aware of a number of councils and others who chose PFI as a way of funding the delivery of important infrastructure, and they may argue they were not necessarily forced to do that, but perhaps had little choice when they were making those seeming choices on delivering some of those projects. That's probably worth noting. It is also worth noting, because the Cabinet Secretary did criticise Conservative Governments at a UK level, that of course PFI was supercharged under Tony Blair during the noughties, leaving future taxpayers with a spending commitment of £215 billion from that Labour Government's choices through the noughties. Whilst recognising that it was John Major who brought PFI in initially, it was Tony Blair's Government who made the most of PFI.

Another broader point I'd like to perhaps ask the Cabinet Secretary: he made a philosophical point towards the end of his statement, saying that the question remains whether we'll continue to deploy the MIM in future. I accept why he's made that point, but I'd be interested to know his personal view, if he was going to be back in those shoes after May, which I believe is not going to be the case, but what his personal view of MIM has been, and whether a future Government, in his view, should continue to engage with that.

The Cabinet Secretary made an important point around the 20 per cent equity stake that Welsh Government effectively has with these projects, so I'd like to ask a few specific points in relation to that. Firstly, on the Velindre Cancer Centre, as he's pointed out, it's a flagship MIM project, and one of the most high profile here in Wales. We are now two years into the construction phase of that, so I wonder whether the Minister could confirm whether the project remains on track to open in spring 2027, as was originally stated, because of course it's a really important facility, and any delays or uncertainty would rightly cause concern.

In terms of education and the role that MIM plays in education, the Welsh Education Partnership Company have set some ambitious aims, which are encouraging to see, delivering up to 30 new schools and colleges under the framework, but I wonder how many of these projects have been formally approved by the Welsh Government, on what sort of timelines, and crucially, how value for money will be assessed with such a large portfolio of work, and what sort of assurances the Cabinet Secretary has that this is the right model for those projects.

In terms of the NHS estate, we're aware that there's an estimated backlog of maintenance of around £1 billion, which could largely be fixed with some significant investment. Of course, it's not just about bricks and mortar; it's about patient safety and patient care and the conditions that our staff work under. So, I'm wondering how the Cabinet Secretary has assessed the use of MIM in tackling the crisis in our NHS infrastructure, and if it's not an option, why it's not being considered.

I'd also like to support the Cabinet Secretary's point on the community benefits that MIM provides as well, but I'd be interested to understand how he has assurances that those community goals are being achieved through the delivery of that community benefit, and whether there's annual data available for assessing that assurance as well.

So, just in closing, Llywydd, the people of Wales certainly expect infrastructure that works—not just ambitious headlines, but real delivery. Of course, they want schools that raise standards, hospitals that are fit for purpose, and roads that support growth across all parts of our nation. Above all, they expect openness, value for money, and a Government that delivers with long-term responsibility. So, we support the aims of MIM, and we're interested to understand how it can be broadly expanded, if and where appropriate. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

I apologise for the fact that the Member thought the statement was dry. [Laughter.] I find it's not always possible to make finance statements from this lectern in an entertaining fashion, other than to a select number of colleagues here. I'm grateful to him, though, for his questions.

He's right, of course, that some other agencies did use PFI in those early days, and indeed the Welsh Government has helped to buy out some of those contracts subsequently, when we were confident that to do so would represent better value for the public purse. I hope, Llywydd, that I was ecumenical in my own criticism of successive UK Governments in those earlier days.

The Member asked me if I think that there is a future for the mutual investment model in the next Senedd term, well, what I can say to him is there is a pipeline of projects that extends beyond this term. Now, they will not come to fruition for final decision making until after May of next year, but certainly, whoever does this job in the future, they will have propositions for future investment models, and provided that they think that they represent value for money and can be supported in that way, I myself see no reason why you would not go ahead with those projects.

The Velindre hospital remains on track for work to be completed in March 2027, and for the first patients to be treated at the new site in April of that year. Every one of the MIM projects has to pass what’s called the ‘net present value test’. It’s a test laid down in Treasury documents that allows you to be confident that any individual scheme delivers value for money. All the schemes that have been supported so far passed that test, and we are confident, therefore, that the benefits of each one of them outweigh the costs. But there are costs, and that’s where you have to come back to as a finance Minister, where you look to see how much capital expenditure can be deployed through the MIM, because it’s a borrowing mechanism, and that borrowing has to be supported, and the borrowing means that you have to set revenue aside every year over a 25 or 30-year period, to deal with those revenue implications.

Now, in this year, we are providing £50 million in revenue to support the borrowing through the mutual investment model. At the moment, that will rise to £100 million in the most expensive year of the scheme, and that’s in 2028-29. If you are a finance Minister, what you find is that your colleagues are very keen indeed to maximise the amount of revenue that they have to be able to deal with the day in, day out challenges that we face in all our public services. Every time you agree a new MIM project, you reduce the amount of capital available for other things. That’s the calculation you have to do. That’s when you look at that very large sum of money that the Member quoted about NHS backlogs. You would end up with a very large revenue consequence if you were to tackle it in that way. I believe, as I said, that there is a future for the mutual investment model, but I think it is for targeted purposes, with careful management of the revenue consequences of making such investments.

As to community benefits, we do have data that appears at regular intervals as the schemes unfold. I referred in my statement to the Heads of the Valleys road. Shall I just say that that saw £400 million of spend during construction in Wales? Over £230 million of that spend took place within the Heads of the Valleys region; 73 per cent of workers on the scheme were based in Wales; 44 per cent of all the workers who worked on it came from the Heads of the Valleys area; 2,200 new jobs were created, including 765 people who were known within the system as workers with disadvantages, and 114 of those jobs were taken up by people who had been unemployed for an extended period. There is a richness of data that is collected alongside all of these schemes, and we aim to publish that in the biannual statements that we make.

I may start, actually, with where you ended your statement, just in terms of the limitations of the fact that we don’t have borrowing powers, that you’ve had to come up with this creative way to actually do what any Government should be able to do, and invest in capital infrastructure. Therefore, could you provide an update in terms of those discussions with the UK Government about how we can progress this? Because the fact that we’re so constrained, we’re a Parliament, we should have these powers here in Wales, and even our local authorities have greater flexibility in this regard. So, an update in terms of that key way forward, so that, hopefully, we can look at every possible avenue to be able to invest, would be gratefully received.

I'm also grateful that you outlined the relative merits, compared with the traditional forms of PFI, but, certainly, in terms of the need to now look at how we can ensure that we are making the most of every possible opportunity to invest, I agree wholeheartedly with the comments you made about the short-term approach of the previous UK Government where we should have been investing when investment rates were low. On all of those things, I echo those sentiments.

But if I may just ask on some specific points that are different from those that we heard from the previous speaker, just on the Future Valleys Project, obviously, there are a lot of great statistics that have been quoted, some targets have been achieved and exceeded, but some haven't. For example, the target for apprentice employment is 14 per cent under the planned target. Training is 85 per cent of the total project. Tree planting, for instance, was 84 per cent of the project key performance indicator that was per the annual report. So, I just wanted to understand how these are monitored and how you're able to ensure that these targets are being met. Obviously, where they're exceeded, we are not going to complain about those, but some of the things, like the tree planting, struck me as quite peculiar. I'd be grateful if you could perhaps explain some of those.

Also, in terms of the community benefit criteria, I understand from your answer to the previous spokesperson that there are ways of monitoring and so on. But what are the relevant enforcement mechanisms if they are found to be in breach of these obligations?

If I may, on Velindre as well, we all know that there have been well-documented controversies surrounding the consortium leading the construction of the new Velindre Cancer Centre. We know there have been convictions of bid rigging that are in the process of outstanding appeals. I don't know if you're able to confirm whether the rejections of these appeals would prompt the Government to reconsider its contract with respect to these companies. I think there are a number of questions there that we'd appreciate having that opportunity to understand.

In terms of future Welsh Governments, what recourse is available to them to amend the terms of existing MIMs? Another question, I'm afraid.

But overall, I think, as you mentioned, these are a creative workaround to something that, fundamentally, we are constrained on. If we can see progress with two Labour Governments working together, I think that would be to the benefit not only of this Senedd, but of infrastructure all around Wales.

I think Heledd Fychan's final sentence, about 'a creative workaround', is not a bad summary of what the MIM is. It is a way of trying to make progress in conditions where all the other avenues have been exhausted, and that's what I meant by the capital hierarchy. We always exhaust the cheapest money first. And then, if you can't manage everything you want to do with that, you have to move along the hierarchy, and at some points you end up having to go for the MIM as well.

Maybe the need for it will be diminished in the future. In this financial year, we have £365 million more capital than we've had in the—. I think that it's more than we had in the 10 years previously combined under the age of austerity. So, that's a very significant injection of capital. But when you have 14 years of underinvestment to make up for, my own conclusion is that, for a while at any rate, our needs will outrun our ability to meet them from those entirely conventional ways, and, therefore, the MIM ought to remain in play at least.

Discussions with the UK Government continue. I had my last opportunity to meet a Treasury Minister the week before last. I once again went through the way in which we would like the UK Government to act. First of all, in simply updating the figures that are within the current fiscal framework, we are constrained to the £1 billion that I was able to negotiate with David Gauke when he was the Chief Secretary to the Treasury back in 2016. That's nearly a decade of those figures being fixed. We just need them to be uprated in line with inflation. But beyond that—and this is a point that Mike Hedges has often explained better than me on the floor of the Senedd—we need a prudential borrowing regime for the Welsh Government in the way that local government has a prudential borrowing regime. Then, we wouldn't be talking about having to update figures, and so on, in that way. I made both of those points in my last meeting.

Thank you to Heledd Fychan for what she said, echoing what I had said, about the failure to borrow when interest rates were low. Of course, interest rates are one of the crucial variables in the MIM model—whether you can meet that net present value calculation. When interest rates are high, it's harder to do. When interest rates are falling—and they have fallen four times in the last 12 months—it makes the model more viable again. So, it is very sensitive, as a model, to changes in interest rates.

We monitor the contracts at the departmental level. I don't do that myself. My colleagues in transport, education and health monitor the week-in, week-out delivery of the contracts. I don't know the absolute detail, but I remember being told that they had planted over 100,000 trees in that final stage of the Heads of the Valleys road, and that maybe one of the reasons why that didn't get to the final total was because they had to do some particular work to protect the fritillary butterfly.

I'm glad to see that my colleague is nodding at me. I was writing it down, trying to make sure that I remembered it correctly. It turned out that this was a very special site for that relatively rare butterfly. A lot of habitat work was done, but it may mean that fewer trees were actually planted as a result of it. The enforcement of the MIM model is through the contract. It's very important that you have people who can negotiate the contract in the beginning in a way that allows you to go on enforcing its conditions.

As far as Velindre is concerned, we are confident that the Velindre NHS Trust followed all of the necessary procurement rules, and that the contracts were signed in line with the requirements of the law. These are often very large companies that have many different sub-groups. Somewhere around the world, something may have gone wrong in some part of it, but none of that is directly the case in the companies that are involved in the work itself.

Finally, the Member asked if it would be possible for a future Government to amend the terms of the contract. Only by negotiation. There is no unilateral ability of the Welsh Government to amend a contract. You can do so if the other party is open to that renegotiation.

While demand for new schools, new hospitals and new roads is continual, there is never enough capital to build everything that we want and need. I am pleased that the Welsh Government decided not to adopt the PFI model advanced by the UK Government, despite being criticised for not doing so. We didn't do it in Swansea either, again despite being criticised for not doing so. The wisdom of those decisions has been borne out as the total cost of PFI became known.

I welcome the use of financial transactions capital to support MIM investment. What I would ask is whether the mutual investment model is PFI lite. While the worst excesses of PFI—such as not financing soft services and capital equipment, and charges such as the £20 to change a light bulb—will not occur, it is still a long-term commitment that will have an effect on revenue budgets for a long time. Why does the finance Secretary not think that, for schools, it would be cheaper for the Welsh Government to fund local authority borrowing to pay for the building of the schools, and let them borrow from the Public Works Loan Board, as opposed to using MIM, using their prudential borrowing capacity?

Thank you to Mike Hedges for those points. He is right. It is financial transactions capital that we use. It is not always the easiest capital to deploy in Wales. Some parts of the world that we deal with are very used to receiving grants and are less amenable to the idea of taking repayable loans, and that is what FTCs are. So, there isn't always the appetite for them that you might have anticipated, and this has been a very good use of them.

In relation to the point that Mike made about local authority borrowing, in our capital hierarchy, I'd always go to local authority borrowing before I would go to the MIM, where those local authorities are in a position to undertake further prudential borrowing. As Mike Hedges will know very well, there's a wide spectrum in Wales amongst our local authorities of those who are at the end of prudential borrowing, where they've more or less come to the limit of what they can borrow, and others that have not used that facility anything like as much. Where local government borrowing is possible, I'd much rather deploy that than I would to go to a mutual investment model, because it's cheaper, but it isn't always possible, depending on the circumstances of individual local authorities. 

Following on from Heledd Fychan's contribution, I'm concerned that the mutual investment model is, as you've mentioned, a creative workaround of the fact that the Welsh Government has a pitiful amount of borrowing powers. In all the projects in my region of South Wales Central, the Welsh Government had agreed to pay the equivalent of double or more the interest rate of what the UK Government was paying on their borrowing to invest. These projects in our communities have a choice between no Welsh Government investment or investment but with a uniquely Welsh tax.

It was interesting to hear Mike mention PFI lite in his contribution, because this is paid primarily to private companies that are not based in Wales. Are you concerned that that is not good value to Welsh taxpayers? Because millions of pounds could have been saved if these investments could have been made in the same way as the UK Government invest, or even, as Mike suggested, local authorities. I find it staggering that Cardiff and Swansea's combined borrowing powers exceed that of our Government here.

Of course, I'm glad we have a way to invest when other options are not available. I appreciate that we wouldn't have seen many of these projects if it wasn't for MIM, but perhaps to follow Sam Rowlands's philosophical question, do you agree that this model is a creative workaround, but like many things in the Welsh devolution settlement, it is not a long-term solution? Diolch yn fawr.

ywydd, I think I did agree with Heledd Fychan that her term 'creative workaround' was a fair summary of what the mutual investment model is. But the choice, as in the end I think the Member did say, is not between this scheme and a better scheme. This is a choice between using this form of investment or not being able to invest at all. It's not a uniquely Welsh difficulty not to be able to do everything we want to do from within the bounds of conventional capital and borrowing. The Scottish Government, which is better placed than we are in some ways in relation to borrowing, has adopted the mutual investment model, because even with their less constrained ability to fund things, they too found that there were things they couldn't manage without using a model of this sort, and they've adapted the MIM, having seen its success here in Wales. So, it's the last form of borrowing that we go to, not the first, but I have a feeling that there will be people standing up here in future who will be reporting to you on additional use of it in order to be able to meet essential needs that cannot be met in other ways.

Diolch. Thank you very much to the Cabinet Secretary for bringing this statement here today. As has already been said, the MIM model is being used for the construction of the Velindre Cancer Centre in my constituency in Cardiff North, which will result in a flagship cancer centre with the most up-to-date cutting-edge technology in Europe for the people of south-east Wales.

I think that the MIM system, as operated in the building of the cancer centre in Cardiff North, has been very successful. The scheme, as you've already confirmed, is on time, is on track, and will be opening in 2027. Having spoken and discussed with the project managers who've been operating the project in Velindre, it's quite clear that they do see the benefits of the MIM model. There was a full and open competition for the contract, which allowed a great deal of innovation. I'm told that some parts of the Velindre scheme as it's planned now might not have come to fruition without the MIM process, especially in relation to the low energy that is planned.

The community benefits requirements have been one of the driving forces behind the project, with targeted outreach and recruitment from disadvantaged groups, engaging with schools, teaching about STEM and construction, and helping community groups with funding or manual work. There has been a strong link made with the local community.

And, of course, with MIM there is a lot more transparency and government involvement compared to PFI, which does mean that the projects undergo a lot more scrutiny. I think the finance Secretary did say in his input how important it is that the Welsh Government has a seat at the table via the Development Bank for Wales, because this means that the Government is totally up to date with the private sector in terms of what is actually happening.

So, I think this has been very positive. Does the Cabinet Secretary agree that the seat at the table is one of the most important things about the MIM project? I think it showed great foresight not to pursue the PFI model at the time the Welsh Government made that decision, but does he think in the future there is anything about the MIM model that should be changed if it continues to be used by a future Welsh Government?

I thank Julie Morgan for all of those points, Llywydd. We’ve heard from other contributors that the Velindre scheme has been a controversial scheme in some aspects of it, and I wanted to thank the Member for Cardiff North for the steadfast support that she has shown for the prize that is here, which is a state-of-the-art cancer hospital for the whole of south-east Wales. I know she will have spent hours and hours talking with residents in her part of Cardiff, putting that case to them and making sure that, in the end, we focused on where the greatest gains were to come.

She is right that the equity stake, the fact that we take a stake in the company, a 20 per cent stake that entitles us to a seat on the board to represent the public as shareholders in that scheme, is one of the distinguishing features of the MIM model. It was never there in PFI. The public interest was never represented at that board level, nor did the public ever get a share in the profits that were made as a result of those PFI schemes. Now, if there are profits to be made by MIM companies in the future, the public will get a return on those profits, so we will be able to go on reinvesting them and, indeed, reinvesting them in the sort of scheme that is the new Velindre hospital, a very complex scheme because of the state-of-the-art facilities, the need to have the clinical conditions in which cancer care can be delivered. I think the Member is right to say that the MIM process has in some ways driven some of those innovations in that Velindre scheme and that that will be to the benefit of patients in the future.

To Julie Morgan's final question—whether I see ways in which the scheme could develop in the future—well, I think she answered the question herself, which is that the system allows for innovation. In fact, it puts quite a premium on innovation, and that means it is a scheme that can go on developing, and a model that can go on developing, so we can make sure we get the maximum out of it for the future.

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Llywydd. Today I am pleased to update Members on the launch of our improved young persons fare pilot scheme. This is a significant investment in the future of our public transport system and, more importantly, in the future of our young people. The scheme delivers on priorities set out for Welsh Government by the First Minister to deliver a better bus network.

We know that the cost of transport can be a barrier to accessing education, training, work opportunities and the wider community, and we also know that young people themselves and those who represent their views have consistently called for a scheme such as this. The scheme is about breaking down barriers. It's about ensuring that where a young person lives does not limit their ability to study, to find work, or simply to enjoy the same opportunities as their peers elsewhere. This pilot, therefore, speaks directly to those priorities. It will support young people and their families at a time of real financial pressure. It will help us build a stronger, more sustainable bus network as we move towards franchising, and it will deliver on our wider ambitions to encourage more people onto public transport, reduce carbon emissions and tackle poverty.

The success of this scheme depends on strong partnership working. Participation in the pilot by bus operators is voluntary, and I'd like to thank operators and their representative bodies for the constructive dialogue and the progress that we have made so far. Strong partnership working has resulted in participation from operators covering the full bus network across Wales. This collaboration demonstrates a shared commitment to getting more young people travelling by bus, to increase patronage and to ensure that our bus network remains resilient as we prepare for the move to bus franchising.

As part of the 2025-26 budget, a £15 million commitment to support the introduction of an improved fare offer for 16 to 21-year-olds across the 2025-26 financial year was made. We have since listened to young people, their advocates and the sector, and invested an additional £7 million to extend the scheme to cover all aged 21 and under. 

The first stage of the scheme for 16 to 21-year-olds began on 1 September, with fares capped at £1 for a single ticket and £3 for a day ticket. I am pleased to report that take-up has been nothing short of remarkable. Since the launch of the pilot, more than 26,000 young people have signed up for a free MyTravelPass, already surpassing the total number of annual applications received in previous years. This represents a 38 per cent increase in the number of passes in circulation since the scheme began.

These figures show beyond doubt that the appetite is there, that young people are eager to take advantage of affordable travel, and that this scheme is delivering real impact from day one. We've supported the roll out with a targeted marketing campaign that will continue over the next few months, ensuring that as many eligible young people as possible are aware of the scheme, and able to benefit from it.

The second stage of the scheme will extend the same offer to children aged five to 15 after half term, starting on 2 November. We're working closely with operators and local authorities to address some of the additional complexities this age group presents, particularly where the scheme interacts with existing learner travel arrangements. But I am pleased to say that engagement with the sector has been very strong indeed, and we are hoping that we'll be able to introduce the scheme as planned. 

Affordable fares can play an important role in complementing and contributing towards solutions to the challenges around school transport provision. But I do want to be clear that this scheme is not a silver bullet, and dedicated school transport policy and, indeed, funding will remain essential.

A pilot of this scale must be rigorously evaluated. We will therefore be undertaking an independent evaluation to assess the effectiveness of the scheme. This will examine whether the pilot is achieving its objectives. Importantly, bus operators, local authorities and external stakeholders will be involved in that evaluation, along with young people. Any decisions about extending the scheme will be for the next Government, but it is important that we listen to views that can help shape the future of the scheme.

Now, I know that some Members will be asking why we're not following the Scottish model in offering free bus travel for all young people, but the simple truth is that such a scheme would be unaffordable in the current financial climate. The scale of costs involved would be far beyond what is sustainable for the Welsh budget. Instead, we have taken a different approach, one that balances affordability for families with the need to deliver value for money for taxpayers.

We made a clear programme for government commitment to improve fares for young people, and through this pilot we have not only delivered on that promise but we have also gone further. This pilot represents a major investment in our young people, and in the future of public transport in Wales. It's been delivered on time with the support of bus operators, councils and young people themselves. It will make a real difference to communities the length and breadth of Wales.

By capping fares, we are breaking down barriers to travel, supporting access to education, training, employment and leisure and encouraging the next generation to use buses as part of their daily lives. No young person in Wales should feel cut off or isolated because of the cost of transport. This scheme is about giving them the freedom to move, to connect and to thrive.

I'd like to thank all those who played a role in bringing this scheme forward, including Members across this Chamber, and particularly Jane Dodds, whose support has been invaluable throughout. This is a scheme that puts young people first, supports our wider ambitions for bus reform, and helps us build a fairer, greener Wales where opportunities are within the reach of everyone. Diolch.

I thank the Cabinet Secretary for his statement here this afternoon and, again, for his advance notice of the statement and the information within it.

It's a slightly strange afternoon for me, Llywydd, because I just spoke a few moments ago and broadly agreed with the Cabinet Secretary for finance, and I'd like to express my broad support for the transport Cabinet Secretary here today as well for this scheme. Any initiative that makes it easier for young people in Wales to access education, training, employment and those social opportunities is welcome.

In terms of the value for money this scheme seems to present, it certainly seems like a good idea. Because transport isn't just about getting from A to B, of course. In my view, it has to be viewed as a vital economic lifeline. Affordable travel is essential to ensure young people access colleges, apprenticeships and jobs. Without this, many face a very real barrier that risks them being left behind. And from an economic perspective, helping young people get to education and training means a more skilled workforce, higher employment rates and stronger local economies. I sometimes get slightly sceptical of all types of governments when they talk about the difference that they try to make in terms of our economy, because I fundamentally believe that it's business that drives our economy. But, certainly, Government has a role to play to ensure that schemes like this enable our economy to grow, enable our young people, or all people, to access those employment and education opportunities. There are a few points I'd like to raise with the Cabinet Secretary, and perhaps he'll answer the questions I present to him this afternoon.

Of course, one of the big challenges facing young people is not just the cost of transport and travel, but when it comes to public transport, there's no point in it being cheap if it never arrives in the first place, or isn't available to them, especially in our rural communities. Many of our young people are facing either poor frequency or limited coverage of bus services. Many routes run only a few times a day, or not at all during evenings and weekends in those rural areas, making it difficult for learners to rely on buses to get to colleges or apprenticeships on time. This lack of reliable service isn't just inconvenient, it can cause young people to miss those essential education or work opportunities, or push families to cover costly alternative transport. I was presented with that example just this morning. Many Members in this Chamber will have Swansea University students, perhaps, with them at the moment, and you would've thought a trip on public transport from Swansea to Cardiff Bay would be quite straightforward. But for those students—. My student this morning was late—and I'm not going to say his name, of course—and that was because of the unreliability of that bus, no matter the cost of it. He ended up having to get a taxi. So, there are real, live examples happening today, even with the scheme as it is already.

So, if we want to see real economic benefits from this scheme, the Welsh Government must work to ensure bus services run regularly and at times that align with learners' timetables, and also ensure that, when those numbers do increase—as the Cabinet Secretary has outlined, there has been a significant increase already—there's capacity in that network to cope with that increase as well, that increased demand.

The Welsh Government's own data also shows that 41 per cent of young people identified transport as the biggest obstacle to starting a course or getting a job, and that is why this scheme could be transformative. It helps tackle a key bottleneck in skills, development and workforce participation, and I guess, though, it begs the question to the Cabinet Secretary as to why it wasn't brought in sooner. In England, they've had a cap on their fares since January 2023, almost three years ago, and that wasn't just for young people, that was for all travellers over in England. So, I'd be interested to hear his response as to why it's taken so long to put this scheme in place.

On the roll-out of the scheme itself, we have heard concerns that the Government were rushing to the announcement before sorting out the delivery. Llywydd, we've heard reports from the Confederation of Passenger Transport saying that, even as the scheme was launched, funding details had yet to be finalised, and operators were left unclear how reimbursement would work or how the scheme would be implemented at a local level, which is concerning. We all know what happens when a good idea is poorly managed—it risks losing public trust. If it underdelivers, it's young people, perhaps, who would be left disappointed. So, I wonder if the Cabinet Secretary will reflect on this, and whether lessons have been learnt in terms of the delivery so far of this scheme, despite some of the positives that have happened already. We've also heard concerns from bus operates about reimbursements and funding clarity, and, of course, if these aren't resolved, operators may reduce their services, which could risk undoing some of this good work. 

I heard the Cabinet Secretary mention the evaluation of this pilot taking place. He didn't mention when that evaluation would be undertaken, so I'd be interested to understand when he thinks that might happen and whether something may be in place before the election, which may give a future Government something to think about in terms of its future roll-out. 

I'm aware of time, Llywydd, so, in summary, affordable and reliable transport is more than a convenience; it's an economic enabler, making it easier for young people to access education and employment, and will build a stronger, more prosperous nation with a workforce ready for the future. So, this type of scheme is broadly supported, and I'd be interested in the Cabinet's responses to my specific questions. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

It would be a pleasure to respond to Sam Rowlands, and I thank him for his kind comments about the scheme. As a regional Member for North Wales, Sam will be aware that, in parts of this region, as is the case across many parts of Wales, around 20 per cent of young people are not able to attend their job interviews because of a lack of affordable public transport or the absence of public transport.

I think Sam has pointed to a number of issues that we need to overcome as we move towards franchising and also through franchising. What the public need is a cost-effective method of getting from A to B— it has to be affordable by public transport and there has to be the right degree of availability. We have to have a strong public transport network. To get that, we have to grow the network. You can only grow the network through financing it if you put in more taxpayers' money or you grow the farebox, and you can only grow the farebox if you're increasing the number of passengers. If you find the sweet spot where you have the right affordable fares in place, you then drive up patronage, and, in so doing, you drive up the number of passengers.

This scheme, I believe, is an invest-to-save scheme. It will save young people in the short term quite considerable sums. In the longer term, because I believe it will result in a long-term increase in passenger numbers, it will then enable us to reduce the subsidy, potentially, that we currently pay to the bus network, or we can use that additional revenue from the farebox to increase the size of the network. That would answer those concerns of people, yes, in rural Wales, but also in some more urban parts of Wales, that often the bus network does not meet their needs.

Now, we're also going to be addressing availability of services through bus franchising when we design a network that meets passengers' needs, and also a timetable that meets the needs of learners, that meets the needs of people who need to get to work, to training, to education, and also a network that is reliable and safe. Now, in order to drive up safety, we're going to be seeing greater investment in street lighting, in bus stops, in bus stations, and in order to improve reliability, more capital needs to be spent on priority measures for bus routes. This is all part of the package of bus reform, so dealing with the cost, dealing with the availability of bus services, dealing with reliability, and dealing with safety issues are all on the Government's agenda.

Now, this has been an incredibly complicated programme of work to complete in a relatively short space of time, not least because in Wales we have something in the order of 130 bus operators, but I'm incredibly grateful to those operators and to their representative bodies for such constructive, productive and swift engagements. And yes, there were many rehearsals of various issues during the course of designing this programme, but we got it right on the night and we launched it on time, and I do believe that it will make an enormous difference to young people. I was, indeed, just in Rhyl last Friday meeting young people, and one of the youngsters that I met said that every single journey they now take they're saving £2.50 on, which is quite incredible.

In terms of the further work that will take place, at six months we'll have an interim report on the outcome of this, and then, at nine months, we'll have a full report. So far, all of the data that we're receiving from Transport for Wales and from bus operators is quite astonishing, and whoever is fortunate enough to hold the transport portfolio after the election, I would urge them to maintain this scheme if the evidence shows that it's been a success, because it will help drive up the number of people who use bus services, that will improve the farebox, that, in turn, will improve the bus network itself, and it will give huge opportunity in terms of empowerment and in terms of enablement to young people the length and breadth of Wales.

I welcome this statement here today on the £1 bus fare cap. This is a promising step forward in ensuring there are fairer and more affordable prices for young people, and it's precisely why I called for the inclusion of under-15s in the scheme from the outset, after speaking to Youth Parliament Members following the announcement earlier this year. So, affordability in travel is a key factor encouraging modal shift and managing the cost of living, particularly for those families on lower incomes.

We've heard time and again from the Government about the promises to introduce fare caps, so it's pleasing now that this programme is being implemented, and it is a positive move forward towards addressing the consequences of years of underinvestment in the sector. However, I'm sure that many here today would agree that the programme doesn't go far enough, or as far as we'd want it to go. That's why Plaid Cymru has consistently argued for transport systems designed on the basis of social need. The Government has a responsibility to ensure equal access for everyone in Wales to affordable transport. So, I'd also like to highlight the Cabinet Secretary's response to a similar question I asked a year ago, where he stated that a new UK Labour Government would offer greater opportunities for further investment to help deliver the Welsh Government's ambitions, ambitions that are currently limited by the availability of funding. So whilst this is a positive development, I'd like to ask what consideration has been given to expanding the programme to include people of all ages and what discussions have taken place with the UK Government to secure appropriate funding in realising this vision.

Whilst it is encouraging to hear about the increase in passenger numbers, we must also consider the implications for services due to the expected rise in demand, and this will make the gradual cost of expanding bus capacity increasingly challenging. If the Government is serious about transforming travel patterns through bus use, it must ensure, alongside reduced fares, as you've suggested yourself, Cabinet Secretary, that there is sufficient capacity to serve those passengers. Therefore, can I ask what assurances are there, Cabinet Secretary, that assessments will be undertaken to review the quality and affordability of these services? And I'm sure, as part of that review that you've been talking about, that that will be part of that.

In light of this, I'd also like to turn to a major challenge ahead: the bus Bill. With the programme included in the upcoming annual budget, it is crucial that the move towards reforming bus services results in an affordable fare system for people across the country. I heard directly from the Cabinet Secretary last week in response to a written question about additional cost pressures that the bus Bill could place on Wales's budget. I'd therefore like to hear today from the Cabinet Secretary that the implications of this programme have been fully considered as we gradually move towards a franchising model. There is some concern that franchising could create problems for future bus services more broadly and, as we scrutinise the Bill, many of the questions will need to be answered so that we avoid any unforeseen risks and to maximise those opportunities. Of course, one of those questions is learner travel, and this policy and the bus Bill are not the magic bullet for school transport. So, can I have an assurance today from the Cabinet Secretary that there is a clear plan in place to integrate this programme with the future franchise model and that wider question around transport policies, including transport for schools? Diolch.

Well, can I thank Peredur for his questions as well and for welcoming this particular programme of work? I think it demonstrates the early success of this scheme that all parties are now supporting it fully, I believe. Affordability is a huge issue. The Scottish model, I believe, is not the right model. I think the red Welsh way is actually the way that other nations should perhaps be following suit on because, crucially, what ours does is strike the right balance between affordability for passengers and also affordability and sustainability for the taxpayer, for Governments. In Scotland, the problem with having free transport for young people is twofold: (1) you don't increase the farebox—you may increase the number of passengers you have, but you don't increase the farebox, so you can't then grow the network as a result of increasing the amount of revenue you're generating; and then (2), it's been found in Scotland that, in some cases, buses have been misused and antisocial behaviour has been an issue in some areas. I do believe that we've hit that sweet spot in terms of affordability and sustainability, and I also believe that we've hit the sweet spot in terms of ensuring the capacity is there to support this scheme. However, obviously, the review is going to be crucially important in gauging whether further capacity, should this scheme continue into the future beyond the pilot phase, is required.

We've discussed with UK Government Ministers and metro mayors in England—principally, those metro mayors in Liverpool and Manchester—the costs and the benefits of fare caps across the entire passenger age graphic. They can play a crucial role in terms of simplifying the fare regime and in driving up patronage. Again, it's about getting that sweet spot in the level at which you pitch fares.

I do believe, as Peredur has spoken about, that access to affordable transport is vitally important. It should be considered, public transport, in my view, a public service, and we should never leave anyone behind. First of all, we had to stabilise the bus network at the start of this Parliament, but as time has passed, as we have generated stability and ensured that bus routes have been secured, we've been able to turn our thoughts to how we can introduce creative ways of driving up patronage, and I do believe that this will achieve that.

With regard to learner travel, Peredur is absolutely right. This is not one single solution to what is a very, very complicated issue. The bus Bill will also contribute, just as this contributes, to assisting learners who are struggling to access affordable bus transport. So too will better use of data. We've been studying the sorts of debates that have been taking place elsewhere in the UK regarding the increasing costs of learner transport, and what is quite clear is that some of those issues that we discussed and some of the ways forward that we agreed at the learner travel summit earlier this year are now being considered in other parts of the UK. But, as I say, this is an enormously complicated area of concern. It costs the taxpayer at the moment around £204 million per year, so we do need to ensure that we drive down the cost, but also ensure that access to learner travel is available as widely as possible.

I think it demonstrates the early success of this scheme that all parties are now supporting it fully, I believe. Affordability is a huge issue. The Scottish model, I believe, is not the right model. I think the red Welsh way is actually the way that other nations should perhaps be following suit on, because crucially what ours does is strike the right balance between affordability for passengers and also affordability and sustainability for the taxpayer, for Governments.

In Scotland, the problem with having free transport for young people is twofold: (1) you don't increase the farebox. You may increase the number of passengers you have, but you don't increase the farebox, so you can't then grow the network as a result of increasing the amount of revenue you're generating. And then (2), it's been found in Scotland that in some cases, buses have been misused and antisocial behaviour has been an issue in some areas. I do believe that we've hit that sweet spot in terms of affordability and sustainability, and I also believe that we've hit the sweet spot in terms of ensuring the capacity is there to support this scheme. However, obviously, the review is going to be crucially important in gauging whether further capacity, should this scheme continue into the future beyond the pilot phase, is required.

We've discussed with UK Government Ministers and metro mayors in England—principally, those metro mayors in Liverpool and Manchester—the costs and the benefits of fare caps across the entire passenger age demographic. They can play a crucial role in terms of simplifying the fare regime and in driving up patronage. And again, it's about getting that sweet spot in the level at which you pitch fares.

I do believe, as Peredur has spoken about, that access to affordable transport is vitally important. It should be considered, or transport—public transport—should be considered, in my view, a public service, and we should never leave anyone behind. First of all, we had to stabilise the bus network at the start of this Parliament, but as time has passed, as we have generated stability and ensured that bus routes have been secured, we've been able to turn our thoughts to how we can introduce creative ways of driving up patronage, and I do believe that this will achieve that.

With regard to learner travel, Peredur is absolutely right. This is not one single solution to what is a very, very complicated issue. The bus Bill will also contribute, just as this contributes, to assisting learners who are struggling to access affordable bus transport. So, too, will better use of data. We've been studying the sorts of debates that have been taking place elsewhere in the UK regarding the increasing costs of learner transport, and what is quite clear is that some of those issues that we discussed and some of the ways forward that we agreed at the learner travel summit earlier this year are now being considered in other parts of the UK. But as I say, this is an enormously complicated area of concern. It costs the taxpayer at the moment around £204 million per year, so we do need to ensure that we drive down the cost, but also ensure that access to learner travel is available as widely as possible.

It's great news that a record number of young people have signed up so far for the MyTravelPass. I've certainly tried to do my bit in raising awareness of the new scheme for young people, meeting up with Ben Harris, who's the Welsh Youth Parliament Member for Delyn, at Mold bus station at the start of the month to promote the new pass there.

You said in your statement, Cabinet Secretary, that the targeted marketing campaign will continue for months to come. Can I ask what form that will take, and actually what role Members can take as part of that to further promote what I think is an excellent scheme, which is already making a difference in communities across the country? Not just the uptake of the pass, but the services that you can use it on, such as TrawsCymru and the ever-popular T8 in my patch now, and also the newly introduced T51, which will connect Rhyl with Wrexham via Denbigh and Ruthin.

The other thing I'd perhaps like to raise, on the back of the work I did with Ben and having a wander around Mold bus station, is that obviously when you bring something in that's successful, people welcome that, but then they always want more as well. So, of course, we've got the bus Bill, and the whole aim altogether is to make bus transport much more accessible and attractive, and I think one of the things that would help with people, from my own experiences, is to have more smart bus signage, particularly at bus stations.

Well, can I thank Hannah Blythyn for her questions? I'm delighted that she's been so keenly promoting this scheme to constituents. I'm also really pleased that the Youth Parliament Members have been so engaged as well. I believe, Llywydd, that the Youth Parliament is meeting on 22 November. I'll do my utmost to join the Youth Parliament on that particular occasion, because I believe that public transport, and buses in particular, are one of the agenda items that will be discussed. 

Hannah will be aware of quite a significant high school in my constituency, Ysgol Dinas Brân in Llangollen, in the Dee valley. And just before this scheme was launched, I went to speak with sixth formers, and one of them, Jackson, outlined that the cost of bus transport is prohibitive in and out of the valley, if young people wish to travel some distance. And this is a very rural area that I represent. What struck me was that he said, 'No young person's aspirations or hopes should be confined to a valley', and this programme I think really enables and liberates young people to get into work, to get the jobs that they want, to get into education, not to have to worry day in, day out, about affordability. 

Hannah makes a really important point about bus stops and bus infrastructure as a whole. TfW have been putting together bus stop quality standards, which will be rolled out as part of franchising. Bus stops will remain the responsibility of local government, but we wish to see the highest standards applied to replacement bus stops. We have in excess of 20,000 bus stops across Wales, and making them safer, providing more accurate and up-to-date information about bus services and making them accessible—so, just having simple things like clean benches and tactile paving—is vitally important for people to feel safe and to have access to up-to-date information. 

And in terms of the marketing campaign that's taking place, it's being led by Transport for Wales. All of the information that any young person needs about the scheme is on the MyTravelPass pages. Social media has been at the heart of everything that Transport for Wales have been doing on this particular scheme. It's far more complicated than I can fathom, but I understand that the reach and the interest in the scheme has been exceptional, and that's reflected, indeed, by the number of young people who have applied for their MyTravelPass and, indeed, the number of young people so far, since the programme was launched in September, who have travelled on bus services. We've seen an incredible increase in the number of young people who are using buses as a result of this. 

Good afternoon, Cabinet Secretary. I'm really pleased to see the incredible success of this scheme with, as you say, more than 28,000 young people having signed up in just over a month. I'm really pleased to have played a small role in promoting this. It does tell us something powerful, doesn't it, that, when we remove barriers, opportunities open up. This isn't just about cheaper travel; it's about giving young people the freedom to go to college, job interviews and see friends. In rural areas like Brecon and Radnorshire, where transport costs are high and isolation is real, the scheme is genuinely transformative. I, like others, have spoken to young people living locally, and they're absolutely delighted with this scheme. This is the start. We want it to be a generational change in young people using buses so that, when they become adults, they're actually used to being able to use buses for everyday opportunities. So, it is about the climate as well. 

There's one issue, which is around social justice. I've spoken to you about this before. We know that young people have to go through an application process. I'm concerned that there will be young people who don't do that because of all sorts of barriers, or they might stop—it is young people maybe who are more used to that process. So, I just wondered: could you let us know how you're going to promote that, particularly through schools? Are teachers going to be able to do it on behalf of their classes, for example? But thank you very much. Diolch yn fawr iawn. 

Well, can I thank Jane Dodds for the incredible support that she has offered during this scheme's existence and during the course of it being designed? And Jane is absolutely right, an extra 26,000 young people now have MyTravelPasses. And from November, when five to 15-year-olds are able to benefit from this scheme, something in the order of 500,000 young people will be able to travel for £1. That's quite an astonishing number of people that will stand to benefit from this scheme. And it's not just them, of course: it's also their parents and their carers. And Jane is absolutely right as well, that this is particularly beneficial in rural areas, where fares are often higher because bus routes are often much longer. So, this is a hugely beneficial scheme for people who live in rural communities.

We're looking at how we can simplify the system all the time to ensure that it's not prohibitive and that people are not dissuaded from applying for the MyTravelPass. We also have an access and inclusion panel within Transport for Wales that's able to advise us on any barriers. So, yes, we're engaging with schools, we're engaging with colleges, we're engaging through the access and inclusion panel and with Youth Parliament Members to ensure that the system is as simple as possible. And Jane Dodds is absolutely right: this is a true barrier breaker as a policy. It's enabling and empowering and liberating people across Wales.

I welcome this statement and the fantastic reception of the £1 bus fare scheme and congratulate Transport for Wales as well on delivering 26,500 MyTravelPasses as well. That's no easy feat.

I used to struggle promoting the MyTravelPass to young people, so this is really good. Also the partnership as well with operators: I was talking to Arriva North Wales, and they said that they've actually brought in an extra seven buses to help with capacity, which is really good. I know drivers were a little bit concerned about the MyTravelPass before maybe leaving out the under-16-year-olds, and all that's been fed in and you're able to roll it out now from November, which is really good, so that's working with drivers as well.

And I know that operators—. It's really important to ensure that these services are maintained for other people, for the older people, so getting younger people on board will just help, won't it, grow up that usage and the capacity, and, hopefully, they will carry on using it.

Flat rates work and promotions work, don't they? So, I'm going to be cheeky and I'm going to say: would you consider extending a pilot to other users, perhaps as part of network north Wales? Thank you. [Laughter.]

Can I thank Carolyn Thomas, not just for her contribution today and her questions, but also for being a fabulous defender and promoter of bus services for many, many years, including during her time as a very dedicated councillor at Flintshire County Council?

I think Carolyn is absolutely right: this scheme is so much clearer and simpler than the scheme that it replaces. The MyTravelPass was always quite popular in offering a third off fares, but it still meant that there was a calculation to be made and that fares were varying so much across different routes and across different parts of Wales. This brings complete simplicity: a £1 fare cap, no matter where you're going, at what time of day, between which communities, and I think that's what's led to so many people acquiring the MyTravelPass and so many more young people using bus services. And I was with Arriva on Friday again in Rhyl, and I was told about the astonishing increase in number of young people who are using their services. They're incredibly excited about this, because they see this as an opportunity to grow patronage for the long term—not just for this pilot period, but for many, many years to come, and that will bring sustainability to the network.

I was also very pleased that, as part of the visit that I made to Rhyl on Friday, I saw the new T51 buses with their livery, which features the network north Wales logo. And of course, it'll be for any future Government to consider what sort of pilot schemes to produce, but I'm very happy to consider one for network north Wales.

Bus services in Wales are ranked as less affordable than those operating in England and Scotland, so I'm very pleased to see that the Government, with some prompting from Jane Dodds—and I think you downplayed your contribution there, Jane, but some prompting from Jane Dodds—has responded with this targeted and, it appears, incredibly successful scheme, compared with previous schemes.

I, like Sam Rowlands, had a similar conversation this morning with a student who travels from a Cardiff suburb to Barry for college, and he simply cannot do it on the bus. So, as Jane Dodds already said, this is just the start of the journey. Of course, we need to see expanded bus services. Over the weekend, I heard criticism that you cannot get from Radyr to the city centre in time for 10.30 a.m., and you can't have a bus from the city centre to Llandaf after 7 p.m. on a Sunday. So, we need to look at weekend services even in urban areas.

A quick question about the pass itself. I remember, as a holder of a bus pass myself in school, a regular occurrence would be people forgetting their passes, people losing their passes. What consideration has the Cabinet Secretary made with regards to this and some difficult conversations that some bus drivers might have with users of the pass, when they've left it behind or have lost the pass? Diolch yn fawr.

[Inaudible.]

If I can have the—. Yes. The Cabinet Secretary is unmuted now. 

Diolch. Can I thank Rhys ab Owen for his questions and for his support for the scheme? And yes, I'd agree Jane Dodds did downplay her role in bringing this forward. It is an exceptional scheme. It's an affordable scheme, I believe, one that will assist in expanding the network if it's continued in the future, because it is generating additional revenue through additional passenger numbers.

Through bus franchising we have developed a three-tier network option across Wales: a base network, based on current revenue support; an aspirational network, based on an increase; and then a 'very best' network, based on a maximum amount of money being made available. And what we're going to be doing is reviewing the amount of revenue that's being raised through this scheme. That'll then enable us to design a network based on the available revenue moving forward, both in terms of the subsidy from Government and in terms of the farebox, and then we'll be able to roll out that network. But I am very, very confident that, as a result of driving up passenger numbers and therefore driving up revenue from the farebox, we will be able to design an expanded bus network in the future. But, obviously, it will be for future Governments to determine the level of financial support that's offered to the network.

Five to 15-year-olds will not need the MyTravelPass, so they don't need to worry about leaving it at home or losing it. And, of course, discretion is always available to bus drivers in the event of a young person losing or leaving their card at home.

Diolch, Llywydd. I move the motion and recommend the Senedd gives its consent to the relevant provisions in the Mental Health Bill as set out in the legislative consent memoranda. This is truly a once-in-a-generation reform of mental health legislation in Wales and England, and the Bill, if enacted, will bring the Mental Health Act 1983 into the twenty-first century. It will help to reduce those inequalities and give people more autonomy, more choice, and increase the patient's voice in their care and treatment under the Mental Health Act. The Welsh Government has worked very closely with the UK Government throughout the process of drafting this Bill and during its journey through Parliament, and I would like to thank my officials, who have done a tremendous amount of work on this.

Our own landmark mental health Measure has informed the development of the Bill. The provisions relating to care and treatment plans and extending advocacy for people in England match the position that we already have in Wales, that we have led on. Where we identified a need for additional powers for Wales, the UK Government agreed to amend the Bill, so Welsh Ministers have powers to make consequential provision to amend primary legislation in devolved areas, and this provides necessary constitutional safeguards.

Llywydd, some Members in the Siambr have asked why we couldn't just bring our own Mental Health Bill forward for Wales to achieve the same policy intent. Please let me be absolutely clear on this point. The provisions in this Bill, and indeed in the 1983 Act, relate to both reserved and devolved areas. The interface between reserved and devolved aspects, for instance, between the criminal justice system and the health services, means that a UK Bill is the appropriate mechanism to deliver these policy changes. Legislating on a Wales-only basis, in a Senedd Bill, would not achieve the same policy intent, with coverage across the justice and health systems in one piece of legislation, as this UK Bill does.

Fundamentally, the Bill ensures that, where people need the support of specialist services, those services are truly person centred and needs led. It is also completely in step with our commitment to reduce reliance on hospital-based care for people with a learning disability and autism, and to ensure that people receive care in the community, at home or as close to home wherever possible.

We are taking a rights-based approach to mental health support in Wales, as set out in our recently published 10-year strategy, and the Bill supports this. It will provide some of our most vulnerable individuals in Wales with more choice and involvement in the care they receive, and ensure that these rights are consistently applied across Wales and England.

I understand that Members will be frustrated that we had to table a sixth legislative consent memorandum so close to today's debate, and the impact this has had on the Senedd's ability to scrutinise those amendments. Unfortunately, the timing has not been in our hands. I am very grateful to all the committees for their work on this Bill, and the legislative consent memoranda, which will help the Senedd to reach a decision about consent. Llywydd, I recommend the Senedd supports this Bill. Diolch yn fawr.

Diolch, Llywydd. My contribution today relates to the first three memoranda for this Bill. We were unable to consider the last three memoranda because of the timing of the reporting deadlines and the late decisions to extend those deadlines. I have previously written to the Business Committee setting out our concerns about this. In producing our reports on these memoranda, we have considered the views of stakeholders and heard oral evidence from the Minister. We made 16 recommendations to the Welsh Government, which are set out in full in our reports. I would like to focus on a small number of these today, and in particular the Minister's response to them.

The Minister rejected recommendations 3 and 7 in our report. These recommendations were made in recognition of the complexity and overlap between the Mental Health Act and the Mental Health (Wales) Measure 2010. They called for a clear, practical legal framework for implementing the Bill in Wales in order to ensure cohesion and clarity for patients and professionals. We wanted to ensure that reforms such as advanced choice documents and nominated persons are integrated with existing Welsh law and practice. In rejecting these recommendations, the Minister's position seems to be that the Act and the Measure are distinct and serve different purposes, and as such, no legal framework is needed to align the two. However, focusing on this legal separation risks underplaying the practical experience of service users and professionals who must navigate both frameworks simultaneously.

Recommendations 3 and 7 were made in recognition of the overlap in patient journeys between voluntary and compulsory care, the need for clarity on how new provisions, such as advanced choice documents and nominated persons, will interact with existing rights under the Measure and the findings of the 2015 duty to review report on the Measure. 

Minister, in light of my concerns today, I ask that you reconsider your response to recommendations 3 and 7 and commit to publishing an implementation framework that sets out clearly how the Measure and the Bill will operate together in practice. I also ask that you clarify the roles and responsibilities of professionals and services under both pieces of legislation and commit to ensuring that service users understand their rights and how to exercise them across both legal frameworks.

Finally, your response to our report states that you will be developing an implementation plan. Are you in a position to update us on progress with that? Diolch.

Diolch, Llywydd. The Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee has laid four reports on the six legislative consent memoranda for this Bill. The committee’s first report, on the first two memoranda laid by the Welsh Government, was published in April, and the committee’s most recent report, on memorandum No. 5, was laid last Wednesday. Insufficient time was allowed for the committee to scrutinise memorandum No. 6 in a meaningful way, as it was only laid before the Senedd last Tuesday.

I will focus my remarks on the views expressed by the committee in its first report. As Members will know, the committee often raises concerns about the Welsh Government using UK Government Bills to legislate in devolved areas, rather than introducing Bills to this Senedd. The committee believes that a democratic deficit is emerging as a result of the Government’s approach in this area. In the same way, we consider that the use of this Bill to make provision in the area of mental health, which is a devolved policy area, contributes to that unwelcome deficit.

In correspondence with the Welsh Government, the committee asked what consideration was given to legislating in parallel with the UK Government through a Bill introduced to the Senedd. In response, the Welsh Government said that there is a significant amount of cross-border provision of mental health services between Wales and England, and that not taking provisions in this Bill risks increasing divergence between services available in the two countries.

However, the committee does not find the Welsh Government’s arguments persuasive. We believe that it should be possible for the Welsh and UK Governments to devise and propose legislative solutions through appropriate inter-governmental working and mechanisms, to mitigate any perceived risks of divergence. Taking this approach would have made it possible to introduce a Bill to the Senedd to achieve the same objectives. The committee therefore believes that the approach taken by the Welsh Government has the effect of side-lining the Senedd as a legislature, and preventing elected Members of the Senedd from having an opportunity to scrutinise the detail of the legislation.

The committee called in its report for the Welsh Government to explain how the approach takes devolution into account. In response, the committee heard that the interface between the reserved and devolved areas in the Bill means that the UK Bill is the appropriate mechanism to deliver policy changes. In its response, the Welsh Government recognises that the Senedd is afforded less scrutiny through the approach taken, although it says that this consideration needs to be balanced with the need to deliver positive change for Wales.

As expressed in our report on memorandum No. 3, the committee is disappointed by the overall quality of the Welsh Government’s response to the recommendations made in our first report. For this reason, our view on the approach taken is unchanged between our first and second reports.

The committee considers that the best way to achieve outcomes that are in the best interests of Wales is to legislate by means of a Welsh Government Bill in the Senedd. It is unclear to the committee how the approach taken by the Welsh Government, of piggybacking on legislation designed for England, respects devolution to Wales.

James Evans.

Sorry—you caught me out then, Llywydd. [Laughter.]

Can I say from the outset that it is a positive to see this Mental Health Bill coming forward? I know there are reservations that committees have, and it's very important that there are reservations and areas that we can improve on, but we need to know where we've been and where we're going. If you look at the old legislation that we've been working to, it is outdated, it is from a bygone time, and it needs to be brought into the modern world. So, I'm very supportive of this Bill. It was a Bill that was brought forward under the previous Conservative Government. It was one thing that really annoyed me, that it got ditched at one time, but there we are, we can't be happy all the time. [Interruption.] I know, Mike, what a shame. [Laughter.] But I'm pleased that it is back now and it is on the table.

I worked very closely with three Ministers for mental health and well-being here—the one down the front, the one who isn't in the Chamber, and the current Minister—on my Bill. I am very pleased to see what is actually coming forward here. This Bill does bring choice and autonomy, includes least restriction and therapeutic benefits—all these are brought in through the new legislation—which I think are really important in how we move mental health legislation forward here in Britain, not just in Wales.

I am, as most people said, disappointed that we can't legislate here in Wales, but, from personal experience, I know just how difficult this area is. When you get into the legal technicalities of this Bill, having a different variation across England and Wales would make it very difficult to implement. Having this done on a UK-wide footing is probably the best place to deal with this piece of legislation. I'd like to see things change here in Wales. I know we've had the updated mental health strategy from the Minister, which addressed some of the things that I wanted to see changed, but it's important that those two documents do dovetail and work together in this area.

One thing I'm quite pleased about, actually, is the replacing of the nearest relative with an appointed person. I don't think anybody in this Chamber can understand just how important that is for somebody who is suffering domestic violence, for example. Their nearest relative could be their abuser, who is actually acting on their behalf in medical situations regarding their mental health. That needs changing, and I'm very, very pleased that that has moved.

One thing I'm a little bit disappointed about in the Bill is that I don't think it goes far enough to embed the rights of children. Children suffer with their mental health just as much as anybody else, and I think there needs to be stronger emphasis in this Bill on allowing children to have reassessments. That's something that I want to see. I know it's not included currently, but I hope the Minister can push that even further. Because if we want to have children having their rights respected, they need to be able to access timely care and have it reassessed. A child goes through the system, leaves the system, and then if they want to get their mental health reassessed, they've got to go right back to the start and go through it all again. I don't think that's appropriate.

Yes, we said there are some concerns from the Health and Social Care Committee, and I hope the Minister can pick those up, but can I just put on the record that the Welsh Conservatives will be supporting this LCM? It's very important we bring it forward. This legislation is needed, and it's going to make a real difference to many people right the way across the country. I'd like to commend the Cabinet Secretaries standing in the front, Lynne Neagle, Jayne Bryant, and you, Sarah, for the work that you've done on the preparation of this Bill. I know everybody isn't going to be happy in this Chamber, but I can say that this is a much better place than where we've been in the past. So, diolch yn fawr iawn.

This Bill represents a long-overdue opportunity to strengthen mental health law, and we welcome efforts to modernise the current framework that has long been outdated. However, the process has once again raised concerns about how UK legislation interacts with devolved responsibilities. It's deeply concerning that Wales continues to follow the lead of Westminster on such a vital issue, rather than proactively ploughing our own furrow, enforcing our own mental health Measure and ensuring that it is complied with. The need for reform in Wales has been clear for many years, yet action has been delayed. This lack of focus on this vitally important field has led to the Welsh Government having to work within the constraints of UK legislation, rather than shaping a framework that reflects Wales's distinct needs and priorities from the outset. It also reflects the poor devolution settlement and why we need this Government to fight for the devolution of justice.

There are also questions about how the necessary workforce, infrastructure and digital capacity will be developed to support these reforms in practice. Without that, the Bill's aims risk not being fully realised in Wales. So, I look forward to hearing the Minister's plans in response to these real problems that will arise.

I urge the Minister to ensure that Welsh priorities are fully reflected as the Bill progresses, and that future arrangements for implementation are led from Wales, not Westminster. However, there is urgency in this field, and a real need to see changes that are promoted in the Bill implemented in Wales, as well as in England. On this basis, and the fact that we broadly support the aims of this Bill and recognise the importance of moving forward with positive change, we'll give this Bill the support it needs.

Thank you very much, Llywydd. I just wanted to reiterate again, because a number of you have mentioned it, that I do apologise to Senedd Members that this has not left an awful lot of time for scrutiny—the way that this has been done—and to consider the amendments. Two minor and technical amendments were laid by the UK Government on 16 September, which was the earliest possible date that I could send them forward to the Senedd then, following the parliamentary recess. I do truly acknowledge that and apologise, and I thank everybody again for all the work that they've done in a short amount of time.

I did want to address what, Peter, you were asking about the Mental Health Act and the mental health Measure. As we know, they are quite different from each other in both aim and scope, but we are rightly extremely proud of our mental health Measure, which is made for Wales and unique to Wales. It has successfully improved access to support for people with mild to moderate mental health issues through the establishment of the local primary mental health services, and it has also helped to strengthen the rights of everyone accessing secondary mental health services, for instance by extending advocacy and placing care and treatment plans on a statutory footing. The Measure now is one of a suite of approaches that we have in Wales that have helped to modernise mental health services. Our focus is on prevention, and the approach ultimately aims to reduce the need for detention under the Mental Health Act. That's how they will be working together.

I can give a little bit of an update as well on the implementation. The Bill aligns, of course, with our strategic approach in Wales, and therefore some of the necessary work to support the implementation is already under way, for instance improving community support for learning disability and autism, both also in my portfolio. We are transforming our mental health services to provide that stepped-care approach with the aim, again, of reducing the need for escalation, more specialist services or detention under the Mental Health Act. We are also investing in our mental health workforce through the strategic mental health workforce plan, which includes the core role of supporting the operation of the Mental Health Act in Wales. Also, as this is rolled out, and as we always do in Wales—and I think we lead on it—we will always have stakeholder input, we will have lived experience, and we will make sure that we are listening to people who are actually impacted by this legislation.

I also just wanted to pick up as well, though, that I am truly grateful to the committees for the work that you do. I do really respect the reports that you have provided. Having been the previous Chair of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee, although very briefly—four weeks to be exact—even in that time, and the people who work on that committee as well are absolutely fantastic and they know their stuff, we were always asking: but couldn't we have done this ourselves? Couldn't the Senedd have done this ourselves? That’s absolutely right, for us to ask that question. Again, I will reiterate what I said in my speech, which is that on this one we could not have, because it wasn't just about not having disparity between England and Wales when it came to health and mental health, which is devolved. This was about criminal justice and the police powers aspect of it, particularly sections 135 and 136.

I also would like to devolve criminal justice in Wales, but I had to work within the parameters that I had within this Bill, and at the moment that is where we are. That is why I absolutely do believe that laying this today and supporting the LCM is in the best interests of the people of Wales. It will do everything that James Evans set out and intended to do with his private Member Bill, and everything that I think we all want to see for people across Wales, in very specific circumstances when they have to be detained under the Mental Health Act

I hope that that has assured many of you. I am more than happy to keep coming back and giving updates on this. It’s a journey, I will be honest with you, and, James, I also think that we should keep pushing for more provision and inclusion of children and young people. Diolch.