Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru

Good afternoon and welcome to this afternoon's Plenary meeting. The first item on our agenda this afternoon will be questions to the First Minister, and the first question is from Adam Price. 

Wales must be prepared to make significant changes to energy infrastructure, to ensure our homes and businesses are sustainable for the future. The mechanisms for paying for new infrastructure are a reserved matter to the UK Government, but the Welsh Government is investing resources in strategic network planning, which will help to reduce overall impact.

Thank you for that response, First Minister. As I said, 10 years ago, Ofgem created a fund of around £1 billion over that period. But to underground existing cables, isn’t there an opportunity for us here in Wales to do that for new cabling too, to provide us with an opportunity to experiment with new technologies in terms of undergrounding, and also, of course, a means of decarbonising more swiftly—because there is opposition to pylons at the moment—as we create a fund that could then pay for the legacy of that in order to make these lines economical? We could then underground 100 per cent, which is the Welsh Government’s policy, put Wales in the vanguard in terms of this undergrounding technology, and get the support of communities to these decarbonisation plans, rather than the opposition that exists at the moment because of concerns about pylons.

Thank you very much. I think that we have to acknowledge that there will be major impacts on the grid in the future, and, of course, our policy is one that requires undergrounding where that’s possible. But I think that we all have to accept that that is very expensive—much more expensive, in fact—and, therefore, we have to understand that this is an area where energy networks are non-devolved. If we were to take on the responsibility for undergrounding, that would be extremely expensive and we would have to cut funding from other areas.

However, I do think it is important that we do accept and hear what local people have to say, but we also have to accept that costs for energy are already very high, and, therefore, we have to be sensitive in terms of seeing those costs rising again.

You come from west Wales, and I just want to pay tribute today—

I want to pay tribute today to another west Walian, Terry Griffiths, who was a proud son of Llanelli—a great Welshman. He did so much for us in being world snooker champion on so many occasions. And I’d like to pay tribute to him today, and also to wish the women’s football team good luck this evening in the European football play-offs in Dublin. I’m sure we’ll all be behind them 100 per cent. 

First Minister, earlier this year in the Senedd, we had a motion, of course, calling for an update on 'Planning Policy Wales' to specifically mandate undergrounding rather than just it being a preferred option, as is currently the Welsh Government’s position—the preferred option, but not prepared to put that into planning guidance. Of course, I heard what you said to Adam Price in his question today. And you responded to me earlier this year—of course, undergrounding, if it’s feasible, if it’s possible, if it’s affordable, but, sometimes, that simply won’t be possible. But what I would say, First Minister, is that I’m concerned that the Welsh Government planning guidance is lagging behind, potentially, technological advances. If you look to continental Europe, we can see huge steps forward in undergrounding, and, in fact, there are Welsh companies—Welsh contractors—that are very much involved in that in continental Europe. So, can I ask you: if it’s still the Welsh Government’s position to not change planning guidance in this regard, can you at least start the process of investigating these new technological advances, with a view to making and changing the Welsh Government guidance, and, eventually, for you to support a position where you will only support cabling if it’s underground?

The Welsh Government is already involved in strategic planning groups at the GB level, but, on top of that, we've established an independent grid group to develop the principles in terms of our approach to new grid proposals in Wales. Now, they will be reporting towards the end of March. They will be undertaking the kind of investigations that you are proposing.

Good afternoon, Prif Weinidog. I just want to follow up on both of those points, if that's okay. It's really important that we have a planning policy that's fit for purpose not just for now, but for the future—so, a planning policy that has within it an absolute assumption that the underground lines are absolutely placed underground, and that there is an exception if they can't be placed underground. The second thing is around the cost. I just wonder if the Welsh Government is open to considering doing an economic assessment around the costs for undergrounding versus that for the pylons at the moment, including what that looks like for the future of our communities in relation to that visual impact, because once those pylons are up, they will scar the landscape for the rest of our time, but undergrounding means that they cannot be seen and that our beautiful countryside stays as it is. So, will the Welsh Government consider doing an economic impact assessment, looking at those options for the future? Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Diolch yn fawr. That's precisely what the independent grid group is looking at, looking at the cost-benefit analysis. I think we've got to be clear that there are costs to putting it underground as well. So, if there's a problem, for example, in the grid, it could take a lot longer—and I mean weeks rather than days—to fix. So, it's not a one-way issue here; there are other things that we have to consider. And, as I say, I think we have got to bear in mind that energy costs are already high. If you underground, where the costs are likely to be higher, then they will be passed on to the consumer. And I just think we've got to be absolutely clear about that at a time when people are fearful about the amount they have to pay. So, there's a balance to strike here, which is why that independent grid group is really important. We'll wait for their recommendations, towards the end of March.

There are 88 dental practices in Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board. In 2023-24, they saw over 170,000 patients and provided over 238,000 courses of NHS treatment. This includes full courses of treatment for nearly 28,000 new patients and urgent care for over 14,200 new patients.

You made a similar assertion recently, when you claimed, and I quote, that

'The UK government will take inspiration from NHS Wales on dentistry, where reforms have unlocked almost 400,000 more appointments in the last two years'.

Now, the British Dental Association were quite brutally scathing in their response to that assertion of yours. They said, and again I quote, Llywydd, that this

'is not only grossly misleading',

in their words,

'it is an insult to the intelligence of professionals and public alike. No amount of government rhetoric and spin can change the reality that NHS dentistry in Wales is ailing and, in some parts, becoming ischaemic'.

Now, that's the BDA, not my words. So, isn't it about time that you faced up to the reality of dental services in Wales? When will your Government stop the flow of dentists out of the NHS and subsequently leaving so many communities across Wales high and dry when it comes to accessing basic dental services?

Well, I'll tell you about facts: the fact is that we've produced and delivered almost 400,000 new dental treatments. So, the BDA need to look at those figures, and, if they want to challenge them, then, yes, bring it on, because, actually, this is the contract that they have signed. Now, you're right—dentists have an option. They choose to work for the NHS or for the private sector, and the fact is that many of them choose to work for the private sector. Now, the fact is that we have to make sure that there's enough money in the system to deliver what we're able to. Now, there is a real shortage in terms of supply of dentists—this is not a Welsh-only issue, which is why what we do is to make sure that we try and increase the support around the dentists, make sure we train more dental hygienists, dental therapists, and we're really pleased to have seen that that's been done particularly in north Wales.

First Minister, your plan is not working. There are over 700,000 people in north Wales, and you said only 170,000 people saw a dentist in the past 12 months. That’s clearly not good enough. I have constituents who travel to Scotland in order to access an NHS dentist and others who are travelling to Albania to get their teeth sorted. Why isn’t your plan working? Well, it’s your contract. Your contract, frankly, is not good enough. It doesn’t give the right sort of support to dentists to encourage them to stay within the NHS. Will you look again at your new contract to make sure that it is fit for purpose and go back to the drawing board, working with the BDA, to come up with something that is more attractive and keeps people in the profession that they want to work in?

Well, we are reforming the contract. We’ve been working with the sector very closely to make sure that NHS work is more attractive and to make sure that we increase the dental workforce. As I say, that’s the broader dental workforce, not just the dentists. You will be aware that, when NHS contracts are handed back, they are reprocured, they go out—we don’t lose the NHS dentistry when people choose to work in the private sector. And, of course, if people travel to Scotland then they will have to pay in Scotland; that is not an NHS dentist that they will be seeing.

Questions now from the party leaders. The leader of the Conservatives, Andrew R.T. Davies.

Thank you, Presiding Officer. There’s nothing like a good cheer on a Tuesday, is there? [Laughter.]

First Minister, the assisted dying Bill passed its First Reading in the House of Commons on Friday. It was an unwhipped vote. We had a similar debate here some weeks ago. I thought it was one of the best debates in the 17 years I’ve been here, where all Members expressed their heartfelt opinion on this. But, it is a fact that this piece of legislation could become law—a high probability of that. The Government has a role to lead on this here to make provision and prepare. What actions is the Welsh Government taking to move the health service, move social care, move local councils and the education system to a place where people can genuinely feel that there is a choice in the final weeks and months of their lives, rather than services that maybe aren’t able to provide that good death and, ultimately, people use the law to take an early death?

Thanks very much, Andrew. I’d like to start by paying tribute to you and for the service you’ve given in this Chamber over a long period of time as leader. I know that you have passionately held beliefs and you’ve argued your cause here in the Senedd. We’ve always had political differences, but I’ve always appreciated the way that you’ve read the room, in particular on those big occasions. So, I’d like to thank you for the way that you’ve conducted yourself, on the whole, with me in the Senedd. [Laughter.]

On the question of assisted dying, clearly, the vote last week has significant implications for us as well. It’s the first stage of a Bill; there’s a long way to go with this. There’ll be a lot of detailed work that has to be done. We will need to undertake our own assessment to establish whether we need to proceed with a legislative consent motion on this issue. The focus that we have tried to make in the past few years is to really focus on quality end-of-life care, and we have put significant resources into that. And I do think that that’s got to be the first stage of whatever comes next.

Thank you for your kind remarks, First Minister. If the Presiding Officer will indulge me ever so slightly, I’ve had the privilege of three First Ministers to ask FMQs to. The first one, Carwyn Jones, I always knew when he was coming both guns blazing because he’d pull his cuffs. Just as I was asking the question, the cuffs would get adjusted, and I'd think, ‘Here it comes.’ Mark Drakeford would always flip the paper around and play with the top of the paper, and I knew he was coming for me at that point. I haven’t quite had enough time to work out the telltale signs for when you’re coming for me, but it has been a huge privilege to stand here and question the whole frontbench, but in particular the First Ministers, because that is a privilege that hopefully the country benefits from by all politicians shining that light on Government and, ultimately, being in Government if you're successful at elections. Regrettably, I was not successful at elections, and I never made the Government bench. But I have found it a huge privilege to stand here as leader of the opposition and, in some small way, make a difference to Welsh democracy and build a stronger Welsh democracy, which we have today, than when I took over in 2011.

But back to the substance of the questions that I was putting to you, First Minister, the point about palliative care is really important. Many experts in that field believe that it is an under-resourced sector and that there is a need for a complete refresh on the initiatives that Government has put forward for that sector to be able to meet the needs of people in end-of-life situations. Will you use the convening power of Government to bring those with an interest in providing that end-of-life care here in Wales together so that we can prepare for that legislative change and, ultimately, people will not feel forced to end their lives and use the legislation if that's not what their wish is?

Thanks very much. I think you're absolutely right; this focus on palliative, end-of-life care is really critical. I'm really pleased to inform you that the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care met with hospices together last week, and the NHS. There has been a long-standing group that has been looking at how we do end-of-life care. There has been a significant amount of work to see how we can prepare better. You'll be aware that, over the winter, for example, in the committee that works with local government, there has been increased money put in so that you can give that support, including over the weekends. All of that helps people to die in dignity at home. So, there has been a huge amount of work put into this already in Wales. I think we are further ahead than they are in England in many respects, as you heard Ilora Finlay say recently. But there is always more work that we can do. We have to recognise that we have an ageing population and the services are going to become more critical in terms of the demand that will be put upon them in future.

That is my real concern—that the services will not be able to meet that demand and people will revert to the legislation to terminate their life before they wish to. That isn't giving people an informed position of choice. We, as policy makers, must do all we can to avoid that.

There is one thing that the Government can do, and the First Minister highlighted that the finance Minister was meeting the Chief Secretary to the Treasury some weeks ago on the national insurance rise that hospices will have to pay. Has there been any progress in convincing colleagues in the Treasury that hospices, GP surgeries and other parts of the health estate here in Wales, and the social care estate, are going to be exempt from paying the NI uplift that potentially could devastate some providers and leave a desert of provision in some parts of Wales?

Thanks very much. I think we're all very concerned about the need to make sure that there are very strong safeguards in place so that the vulnerable don't feel any pressure in any way with assisted dying. There's a long way to go, as I say, and there will need to be a lot of probing in relation to that, and we'll have our responsibility as a Government to make sure that we look in detail at the implications of this Bill for Wales. 

When it comes to hospices, I was always very sensitive to the fact that they do collect a lot of money themselves. They are charitable organisations, very often, but they take huge pressure off the NHS. And so it is absolutely incumbent on us to stand with them and support them. I know that this was an issue that was discussed by the Cabinet Secretary with the hospices in that meeting this week. I think that there's still some more room to go in terms of discussion on this issue, but I think we're really sensitive to the pressures that they're under.

Leader of Plaid Cymru, Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Thank you, Llywydd, and may I also wish the leader of the Conservatives well?

I'd like to take this opportunity to wish the leader of the Conservative group well after his decision to stand down and acknowledge his contribution to the work of the Senedd over many years. He knows that I disagree with many aspects of his politics and his political direction. I guess there's only one place where we've genuinely been on the same side, and that's on the Senedd rugby team. I've been very pleased to be on the same side as him then, given that he's a hard man to bring down. [Laughter.] But on a personal level, I wish him well.

First Minister, gas and electricity prices will increase in the new year, which means higher bills for many people who cannot afford it. When the Conservatives were in Government, the First Minister said:

'As the energy price cap rises again, we need an emergency budget now, to freeze energy prices, and to tax oil and gas giants.'

Does she stand by that tweet of hers from August 2020 or has she changed her mind so as not to embarrass her party boss, Sir Keir Starmer?

We know that electricity and gas prices have increased significantly since then. The war in Ukraine has put huge pressure on us, and much of that increase is now baked in, which is causing a lot of difficulties for people in paying their bills. We've all got to understand that there are compromises to be made here as well. On the previous question, for example, in relation to making sure that everything is undergrounded, we have to understand that there will be a knock-on effect there in terms of electricity and gas prices. So, we've got to be clear that we can't have it all, and at some point we have to make some very difficult decisions. We, of course, in the Welsh Government have contributed a huge amount through our Warm Homes approach, and there's significant money going into that.

She was suggesting back then that there needed to be a response to rising prices, and I'm asking whether she still believes that there needs to be a response to rising prices. It begs the question how much listening she has actually been doing in recent months. People are telling me that the cost-of-living crisis is biting this winter, yet the First Minister no longer supports freezing energy prices, as she once did, and, of course, she keeps on defending the winter fuel allowance cut. People who've been faithful to Labour for many, many years are asking what has become of Labour and whose side the First Minister is on. 

It's reported that Sir Keir Starmer is relaunching his premiership this week, in itself an admission that the promise of change meant very little. In the build-up to that relaunch, what pressure has the First Minister been putting on the Prime Minister to reinstate the winter fuel allowance, or is she so willing to back the decision to cut it that she won't even try?

I'm responsible for certain things in Wales, and the Prime Minister is responsible for certain things under his remit. The winter fuel allowance is something very much within the UK remit—that was their decision. What I can tell you is that I have responsibilities for things here, and I was really proud today to announce an extra £157 million going in to support public services in Wales. There's more money for health, more money for education, more money for the arts. All of those things are as a result of the fact that we have a Labour Government in Westminster that understands that, yes, of course, many older people are concerned with the cold, but they're also concerned about getting money into the NHS—they are the people who use the service more than anybody else.

I'm asking the First Minister to make the case for Wales and for vulnerable people in Wales, and I would remind her that costs on the NHS will increase as people suffer the cold this winter.

Last week, I met representatives from Age Cymru and pensioners who are campaigning for the winter fuel allowance to be reinstated. Age UK says that 37 per cent of older people will find it hard to manage over the winter without it. Remember, this wasn't a change in policy to take the winter fuel payment away from millionaires—it hits many people living in poverty.

The Scottish Government has identified money in its budget next year to provide a universal payment—that's the Scottish Government's choice, and it's all about choices. In her interview with Will Hayward published last week, the First Minister said:

'I think decisions impacting Wales should be made by the people of Wales and by their representatives.'

With that in mind, and given Scotland's more generous settlement from the UK Government, does the First Minister not want to try to find a way of following Labour's lead, or is the money coming to Wales from the UK Labour Government not enough to pay for it?

I'm always going to ask for more money from the UK Government—that's what I'm here to do. I'm here to stand up for Wales and that's what I will do. I'll be seeing the Prime Minister on Friday, and, once again, I'll be making it clear to him that I expect more for my nation: thank you very much, we've had the £25 million for the coal tips, but we want more; we also want more in terms of HS2. All of those things I will be bringing up with the Prime Minister, and I will always make sure that we're standing up for Wales. 

But I tell you what we do in Government, and this might be something worth him listening to: we do have to make tough choices. And when you say, 'Why don't you spend it on that?', it's easy for you to sit there and say that, but you never ever tell us what you're going to cut. We have made decisions in relation to that extra £157 million that's coming in year, which is not insignificant, and there's £1 billion coming next year. We have to make difficult decisions. We are making them on the basis of what people told me over the summer were important to them. Things that were important to them were education, health and the economy. That's what we're focusing our attention on.

As others have had their say on Andrew R.T. Davies, if I may say something too. I don't know whether this will have been your last FMQs as leader of the opposition—I don't know your standing orders as a party well enough to know whether that's the case—but you are the comeback kid of this Chamber anyway. Just to say to you, Andrew—and this may surprise you, actually—that you are held in high regard in this Chamber, and especially by me. Today, I'm sure that this Chamber would wish as one to thank you for your contribution as leader of the opposition, and to wish you well into the future. As Llywydd, there is nothing I like better than a cheeky backbencher, and I foresee more cheek on the backbenches from now on.

So, thank you for your very important contribution, Andrew.

Question 3 to your neighbour, Janet Finch-Saunders.

Thank you. And thank you, Grandad.

All NHS organisations are struggling to meet rising demand for cancer investigation and treatment. Cancer performance at the Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board is not where it needs to be. We're working closely with the health board to recover and sustain an improvement in its performance.

First Minister, as the previous health Minister, you will be aware just how bad things are when it comes to patient treatment in Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board. In September, only 51 per cent of patients at this board began their first definitive cancer treatment within 62 days of initial suspicion—a deeply concerning figure when you consider that in England the figure is 67 per cent. Hospital waiting lists across Wales have now risen for eight consecutive months, reaching a record high of over 801,300 patient pathways in November. NHS England, by contrast, has made significant progress—and I am talking about the previous UK Conservative Government—in addressing long waits after the pandemic, with only 3.3 per cent of patients waiting over a year for treatment, compared to 23 per cent in Wales. Alarmingly too, just 113 patients in England have been waiting more than two years, while Wales has a staggering 23,701, including 10,000 of these within the Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board. It is shocking.

You need to ask your question now, Janet Finch-Saunders.

Some cases involve three-year waits, with nearly 1,500 patients enduring extreme delays. So, what will you do now, First Minister? What are you doing to expand the use of the private sector and other health facilities to bring those treatment waiting times down for the people who really need it? Diolch.

Thanks very much. This is an area where we've absolutely got to get better. There has, however, been a huge increase in demand for cancer services across the whole of the UK, and Betsi’s no exception. I just want to give you a sense of how that increase in demand has been. Gynaecological referrals have increased by 40 per cent since 2019. Lower gastrointestinal referrals increased by 46 per cent. Skin referrals increased by 47 per cent. So, it does take time to ramp up a system when you get that kind of increase in demand.

It is something, though, that I know the Cabinet Secretary is absolutely focused on. I know he discussed it with the chair of the health board improvement board and they are meeting again in December. Underperformance relates in Betsi to four main types of cancer: urological cancers, cancer of the breast, lower gastrointestinal tract and skin cancers. So, we have got to make sure that the workforce is there and there is enough capacity, but there are systems that could improve. They are on it. I get a sense that they really are on it now. They get what they need to do, but they need to do better. So, just to give you an example, straight-to-test activity in Cardiff and the Vale is around 15 per cent higher, in Cardiff, than it is in Betsi. So, there is improvement work they can do on their systems. It is not always about money and about people.

Thank you to Janet Finch-Saunders for asking this question. I raised national cancer waiting times with the Cabinet Secretary last week, and he acknowledged that he was disappointed in the performance, and he did say that the picture varied from place to place. It is clear, therefore, that there is a problem at Betsi Cadwaladr specifically.

I have cases in my own constituency. One constituent came in and said that she was waiting seven weeks for a mammogram. Another constituent waiting for skin cancer treatment was waiting 24 weeks for that treatment. Now, of course, early diagnosis is crucial, but it is crucial in order to get treatment for the disease. So, does the First Minister believe that it is acceptable that people in my constituency have to wait so long for treatment? And why is there a postcode lottery between areas in Wales when it comes to treatment and diagnosis?

Thank you. It is a shame, because Betsi used to be very good compared to other health boards in Wales, so it is a great shame that they have taken a backward step—or maybe they have not taken a backward step, but maybe they just have not been able to keep up with that demand, which has increased so much over recent years.

But as I said, what has happened is that they now, I think, are improving the situation. Just in terms of dermatology, for example, two clinical leads have been appointed. Only very recently, there was a problem particularly in the west in your area, where everyone was reliant on one consultant, and, of course, that creates a system that is not very robust. So, things are improving. There is a clear pathway, but, evidently, the Minister with responsibility for this issue will keep a watching brief on it.

We are taking action to manage people with urgent care needs in the community and improve discharge planning. This will free-up emergency ambulance capacity. In recent weeks we have launched the 50-day challenge, launched new ambulance patient handover guidance and we have recruited 26 clinicians to provide remote advice from 999 contact centres.

Diolch, Prif Weinidog. Just recently a Pembrokeshire-based emergency medical technician wrote to me expressing his frustration that Pembrokeshire-based ambulances often leave the Hywel Dda health board area—called to Waunarlwydd from Tenby, then to another emergency 60 miles away, he eventually ended up delayed, unable to offload patients outside of Morriston Hospital. This left Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire without adequate ambulance cover, and is sadly a common occurrence.

Since 2015 amber response times have gone from 11 minutes to over 113 minutes—a damning indictment of the Labour Government's failure and its mishandling of the health services here in Wales. Now, because you can't meet your targets, you're looking to move the goalposts and change the targets in the new year. So, will you just admit it, Prif Weinidog—the Welsh Labour Government haven't got a clue how to improve health services in Wales?

Well, I just think it's really important to recognise, once again, this is also about increased demand from the public—a massive increase in demand just in the Hywel Dda region. October saw the joint second-highest number of red calls on record ever. So, let me just be clear that also what's really significant is that, despite that massive increase, they reported the best ambulance performance in Wales for response to red calls within eight minutes in October. So, you're quite right—we have to make sure that all parts of this system work, but, actually, that focus, that increase, and that increase in performance in relation to the red calls—which, of course, is the most critical one to respond to—has improved. 

When it comes to reforming the way we look at this, this, of course, was a recommendation from the health committee to review how it was done, something that was done quite a long time ago in England. We've kept to this for a long time. We are following the recommendations of the committee. There does need to be a recognition of that huge increase in demand, and making sure that we respond to the most urgent patients. 

Although youth justice services are reserved, our devolved services, like healthcare, housing and education, play a crucial role in supporting children in the justice system. We work closely with the UK Government to support children through these services and through joint initiatives like the youth justice blueprint.

Thank you for the response. 

A couple of weeks ago I visited the John Kane Centre in my constituency, which is the base for the Cardiff youth justice service, and the Cardiff team is one of the teams in Wales that has a specialist speech and language therapist based at the centre as part of the team. And we all know how important that is, in view of the fact that 60 per cent of children sentenced in the youth justice system in England and Wales have speech, language and communication needs. All this, of course, was highlighted in the report of the Equality and Social Justice Committee.

What can the First Minister and her Government do to ensure that all young people in the youth justice system in Wales have access to a speech and language therapist that will help them understand what is happening to them in the youth justice system, particularly in the courts? 

Thanks very much, Julie. I remember this conversation—it was very difficult—in relation to the Equality and Social Justice Committee's recommendations in relation to this, and I responded at the time as the health Minister. Part of my response highlighted the challenges in this area because there are only around 800 registered speech and language therapists in Wales, and they face a huge demand. So, we do have to work out how we prioritise, and what we are prioritising is services like Flying Start to reach children at the earliest opportunity. So, getting the support in earlier we thought would stop some of the knock-on effect, perhaps, into youth justice later. 

I know that the Welsh Government convened a summit on this issue in January, and that was facilitated by the Royal College of Speech and Language Therapists. They suggested new designs to give professionals in the justice system the ability to identify communication issues, react appropriately and recognise when they need to refer to specialist support. So, that's not necessarily only through access to speech and language therapy.

I'd like to thank my colleague Julie Morgan for raising such an important question. As has been mentioned, unfortunately 60 per cent of those in the youth justice system have speech and language difficulties. This rises up to a staggering 79 per cent within the Neath Port Talbot council area. From your time as health Minister, you'll know about the link between speech and language issues and early childhood hearing loss, and I wonder, First Minister, has a study ever been conducted on the hearing abilities of those within the youth justice system and, if not, would you commit to analysing it? Thank you. 

Thanks very much. I can't remember reading that in the committee's report, but I'm very happy to go and take another look, to see if that was an issue that they raised. Obviously, that is something that should also be considered, if this is an issue.

Brif Weinidog, as you've heard from the previous questions, the availability of data is crucial to improve the justice system here in Wales, and due to the lack of published disaggregated Welsh data, we've been totally dependent on the tireless work and the freedom of information requests of Dr Robert Jones from the Wales Governance Centre. Now, however, at the end of November, the Ministry of Justice said that they will no longer respond to Dr Jones's requests, as they deem his applications to be vexatious. Now, he needs to do these applications, and he's been doing them since 2013, because the MOJ has failed to routinely publish these data. Now, this didn't happen under a hostile Conservative Government, it happened under a Labour Government, who's supposed to be committed to improve the justice system here in Wales.

Now, these aren't vexatious applications, it's helped the Welsh Government, it's helped the Trefnydd—the Trefnydd can attest to that—it's helped countless committees here, in Westminster, and in the Welsh Government. Will you speak to officials at the MOJ and make sure that his applications will be accepted, and to highlight to them that his applications are anything but vexatious, but are crucial to the development of the Welsh justice system here in Wales? Diolch yn fawr.

Thanks very much. I'm sure you'll be delighted to hear that Jane Hutt, the social justice Secretary, will be meeting Dr Jones next week to discuss some of these issues.

Officials have reviewed the surveys undertaken in Arfon during the summer and are exploring reasonable options within our resource constraints. Advice will be sent to the Cabinet Secretary for Housing and Local Government for consideration on how best to proceed to resolve the issue for affected home owners.

Thank you for the answer. And here we are in the midst of another wet and stormy winter, and some of my constituents are still waiting, waiting for the Welsh Government to act on its promises to carry out remedial work on their homes. These are voters who have put their faith in the Arbed scheme, your Government's scheme, which promised to improve their homes, but, in reality, there are dozens of people in Carmel, Fron, Dinorwig and Deiniolen, communities whose housing stock is among the poorest in Wales, who have been let down. Their homes are in a worse condition now than they were before they joined the Arbed scheme some years ago now.

At last, towards the end of Julie James's tenure as the Cabinet Secretary for housing, there was hope, and surveys were carried out on 42 houses last summer, following constant pressure from me, but nothing has happened since then, and I greatly hope that there is to be no u-turn now after hopes have been raised. I take some comfort from your answer, but what is the timescale for restoring the defective work, please?

Thank you very much, Siân. It has taken longer than expected to respond because of the detailed nature of the reports, and officials will write to home owners to inform them that the process is ongoing. Now, once a decision is agreed with the Cabinet Secretary for Housing and Local Government, home owners will be informed of the next steps and the timetable as to when any possible work will be done. And, of course, that will be, to some extent, conditional on weather conditions. So, we know that around 393 homes have benefited from Arbed in Arfon, and 57 of those have the potential for problems.

I'm grateful to Siân Gwenllian for raising the question on behalf of her constituents today, and thank you for your response as well, First Minister. You recognise that far too many people have been adversely affected by this faulty scheme in Arfon and across north Wales, and you've mentioned the numbers of people who have been impacted. It does start to feel, though, that there's a lack of urgency around this being resolved sooner rather than later, so I wonder whether you would acknowledge that there does seem to be a lack of urgency of seeing this matter resolved, and what lessons you and the Government have learnt as a result of people impacted by this faulty scheme.

Well, thanks very much. Look, I think we have got to learn lessons, and it's lessons from previous schemes like the community energy saving programme scheme, and we've seen the remedial work that we've had to undertake in Huw Irranca's constituency—that work has already commenced. There is no obligation on the Welsh Labour Government to, contractually or legally, correct this issue; we are doing it because we think it's the right thing to do. So, this is going to be supportive of those people who've had shoddy work done, but, obviously, we have tightened up the situation under any new schemes to make sure that we don't have the situation arise again.

The Welsh Government is very well aware of the issues in these reports about negative features of the food system, which is why we are pursuing important food-related policies such as 'Healthy Weight: Healthy Wales', and universal primary free school meals, and are committed to a community food strategy.

Thank you, First Minister. We know that the cost to society of allowing these junk food companies to continue to make that the dominant food that people are eating, and the cost to the health service and our economy, makes it, I hope, a priority for the UK Government to legislate to tax ultra-processed foods and be able to use the proceeds to make fresh food available to all.

Now, the Presiding Officer will be familiar with the very successful campaign by Ysgol y Deri pupils in Ceredigion to get Welsh fruit and vegetables served in their school, and other pupils and patients are demanding food grown in Wales, which is obviously going to enhance their well-being. So, what plans does the Welsh Government have to use public procurement to pump prime expansion of fresh fruit and vegetables grown in Wales, particularly to communities where none is available?

Thanks very much. I know how passionately you feel about this, Jenny. I was really shocked with the figure that came up in that report—£286 billion, the cost of junk food to the UK public realm. It's clearly something we all need to take very seriously. The Welsh Government's role in this, I think, is to make sure we set the strategic agenda, and what we've done is to do that through creating the Social Partnership and Public Procurement (Wales) Act 2023. That will require public procurement in Wales to be undertaken in a socially responsible way. So, we've said in Part 3 of that Act that it's going to be started at the end of 2025, or early 2026, and that remains the position. I know that the future generations commissioner is very much focused on this, and I'll be really excited to visit Cegin y Bobl, which is an initiative also that's driving standards in schools, and I look forward to visiting that next week. The Welsh Veg in Schools project, that's another thing that I think we should be proud of, and that's a project that involves six local authorities, and the joy of this, of course, is that it links up the local agricultural communities and the growers locally, and we've got to see more of that, and it's going in the right direction. Things have improved, certainly. In hospital meals, for example, £14 million is spent on food and drink from Welsh suppliers. So, things are improving, but, obviously, there's a long way to go.

Finally, question 8, Lesley Griffiths. 

I'm pleased to report that the Welsh Ambulance Services University NHS Trust responded to a record number of category red patients in eight minutes during October 2024. Now, we are taking action to improve the service further through focusing on reducing handover delays, our 50-day integrated care winter challenge, and recruitment of more ambulance clinicians.

Last week, the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care updated Members on work he is undertaking to improve overall ambulance response times, including red call targets. However, alongside this work, it is absolutely vital that we have a holistic approach taken to ensuring that patient flow, once a patient does arrive in the emergency department, is improved. Could you please outline what action is being taken to decrease those handover delays and reduce the number of ambulances sitting outside our emergency departments?

Thanks very much. We've added significantly to the ambulance service capacity in recent times. For example, we've seen the recruitment, recently, of advanced paramedic practitioners just this year to more than 100 across Wales. That's, again, a new initiative. So, we keep on adding to these initiatives that are already in place. I've just come back from the COVID inquiry. I was explaining to them that we'd increased the numbers in our front-line services by 100 in the particular year that they were looking at. There's been an investment in the Cymru high-acuity responder unit, a £3 million investment in that. We're investing £12 million in new ambulances. So, all of those things are helping.

But, you're right, it's about the flow that we've got to address all the time. Think about the flow. We've got to fix the back end of the system. I'm really pleased that some of the additional money that has been announced this week will go towards supporting that, getting that flow right, making sure we've got additional capacity, but also the work of the care action committee in making sure that we try and keep people in their homes and don't get them into hospital, and we look after them at home, which means reinforcing the support within the community. And all that is about recruitment and moving people out of hospitals and into the community. It's not straightforward when you've got waiting lists to deal with as well, but I think there's a real recognition that that flow issue is where the real problem is, and there's a huge amount of work, I know, that goes in to try and correct that.

Thank you, First Minister.

The next item is questions to the Counsel General and Minister for Delivery, and the first question is from Gareth Davies.

Thank you for the question. In my role as Minister of delivery I'm providing additional capacity to support my Cabinet colleagues and bringing people together across the Government to find innovative ways of delivering delivery of all of our priorities at pace.

Thank you very much for that response, Counsel General. Obviously, we're embarking on the final 18 months of this Senedd term before we embark on the 2026 Senedd elections, and something that is going to change is the size of the Senedd, obviously, from 60 Members up to 96. And, obviously, in questions across Cabinet members, we hear of cuts to budgets, councils struggling, and NHS funds also struggling. With the additional £120 million that the Senedd reform’s going to cost over a period of five years, does the Government still believe that that's a wise use of taxpayers' money, given the financial situation that we're currently facing, by expanding this Senedd by 36 Members in 2026?

Thank you for that question. I'm not quite sure how it relates to my role as Minister of delivery or as Counsel General, but an interesting shoehorning of a political point into this question time. The Senedd reform agenda is very much about delivering the best legislative capacity for the people of Wales. It is very much about making sure that this Senedd passes the very best possible set of laws that it can in delivering for the people of Wales, and it is about ensuring that each backbencher and each member of the Government in the new Senedd will be able to play a good part in delivering a proper legislative programme, with the right amount of scrutiny and the right amount of consideration, so that each of those laws can be the best law it possibly can be. I have never ever thought that 60 people can do that for a nation, and I'm very glad to see that extra legislative capacity going in place.

One target that is very far from being achieved is the target to build 20,000 new social homes by 2026. I have to condemn this lack of delivery. Only 5,775 of these homes had been built by the end of 2023-24. The lack of transparency regarding the plan is also very concerning. There is no guarantee that every one of these very few homes will continue to be social homes into the future, and there is no guarantee that they are being built in the right places in order to solve where the problems are at their worst. With your Government so far away from the target, and a lack of transparency to give us confidence that these are the right kinds of homes in the right places, how will you move this work forward? How will you deliver? And how can you claim that your Government is dealing with the housing crisis?

Thank you for that, Siân. Individual Cabinet Secretaries remain responsible for the delivery of priorities in their portfolio. So, the housing target is the responsibility of my colleague in the Cabinet Jayne Bryant. But you will know, of course, that I was the housing Minister up until extremely recently. I'm very familiar with that target. As part of my responsibility as Minister for Delivery, I am assisting Jayne Bryant in overseeing the work of the taskforce, which is now led by Lee Waters MS, in looking to see how we can accelerate the delivery of houses right across Wales—of course, the right house in the right place.

You'll also be very familiar with the fact, I know, from our previous exchanges on this subject, that we have deliberately targeted homes for social rent. We obviously deliver affordable homes as well, and, for example, the Help to Buy system, but these are specifically targeted at homes for social rent, because that was the greatest need at the point in time of the manifesto commitment last time.

We have experienced a series of things that have caused that target to be really difficult to attain, but I still think that we can make it. I have said a number of times publicly that we are hanging onto it by the skin of our teeth, but that does not mean to say that we should lose the ambition to deliver.

So, I think—. It's not for me to say exactly where we are now—you must ask the correct Cabinet Secretary for that—but I can assure you that, across the Government, one of my tasks is making sure that all of the levers across the Government that we need to deliver that target are in place. So, I've recently had discussions, for example, with the Minister for finance. I've had discussions with Rebecca Evans, who now has responsibility for planning. I've had conversations with Jayne Bryant in her housing role, but also in her local government role, to make sure that all of those levers are in place, and that's very much what I do bring to this role—bringing a diverse set of people together to make sure that we do exercise all the levers.

I have never been prepared to say that we have given up on that target, and I am not prepared to say so now, and I'm sure the Cabinet Secretary, when you ask her, will agree with that.

I really welcome the £157 million that's just been announced in-year for delivering the priorities of the First Minister, especially in public services. Fixing our roads was one of the priorities of the First Minister, and, with highways and pavements and bridges really being impacted by flooding, I'd like to hear an announcement about that. I recently visited Flintshire, who are using a Pothole Pro machine, which is three times faster and more effective than the standard way of repairing roads. They just need the tar. So, I would like to ask you: will there be an announcement soon regarding fixing our highways in the budget? Thank you.

Thank you very much for that question, Carolyn Thomas. I have to say that the Minister for finance has been very clear with every single member of the Cabinet that we are not to pre-announce the budget, so I'm afraid you will have to wait with bated breath until his statement on the budget, as far be it from me to go against that piece of advice from him.

I will say, though, that the entire point of the road review that was undertaken by this Government earlier in the piece was to make sure that we refocused on maintaining the road system that we had before we added to it with other roads. That's not to say, of course, that we haven't added some roads, which are entirely necessary to the system—certainly not an anti-road policy of any sort. But it is making sure that we fix our roof before we build the extension. So, I feel sure that I can assure you that we do have those priorities firmly in place, but I am afraid that I'm not going to respond to your very nice invitation to breach the budget confidentiality until the Minister for finance does so.

Thank you, Janet. As Minister for Delivery, I have been supporting the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Welsh Language and my Cabinet colleagues to align conversations on the draft budget with delivery of the Government's priorities. It remains the responsibility of the relevant portfolio Cabinet Secretaries to lead the delivery of the specific priorities, however.

Thank you. Of course, we sparred a lot over the last few years in terms of housing, and the lack of it, and the housing crisis that now faces us. As it stands, between 8,900 and 9,200 homes have been completed. Without further funds from Welsh Government, Audit Wales estimates that only 16,000 to 16,700 can be delivered by March 2026. It’s thought that an additional £580 million to £740 million may be required, beyond current budget assumptions, to deliver that 20,000 target for new, low-carbon social rented homes by 2026.

My own local authority have spent £4.5 million during the financial year 2023-24, which is set to go up, unbelievably, more. In 2022-23, the expenditure was just under £4 million, and £3 million the previous year, so you can see the pattern. Times this by each local authority, and we have a massive ticking time bomb of people living in temporary accommodation, such as hotels and things like that.

So, what discussions has the Welsh Government held on implementing the Local Government and Housing Committee’s recommendation to establish a national development corporation to accelerate house building by acquiring that land and planning the housing projects available across Wales? Diolch.

Well, thank you, Janet. I do find some of your proposals particularly tin eared to the political situation, because when I first started as the housing Minister in the Senedd before this one, we could build somewhere in the region of seven social homes for £1 million, give or take—six to eight, but seven, more or less, for £1 million. After 14 years of Tory disaster on the economy, and in particular the Liz Truss disaster, we can build four. So, the idea that you can stand there and tell me that you’re really worried about the extra money that we need just takes my breath away.

So, of course we have had to put additional investment into that programme as a result of the economic conditions that we face. We’ve also had severe supply chain issues, particularly around the price of timber worldwide, and there’s a number of other issues. However, I still say—and I said it in response to Siân Gwenllian—that, in supporting Jayne Bryant—because it is now her priority, as the Cabinet Secretary with responsibility for it—we have a number of things in play that are designed to make sure that we maximise the number of homes that we deliver under the programme.

We have a number of other ways—it’s not just building homes. It never has been about just building homes. There are a number of other things we do as well. We have a programme of acquisition, for example, and we have an exemplar housing programme that supports the development of houses across the piece—the private sector as well—to the highest standard of social homes.

I remain optimistic that we are hanging on to that target, and I have absolutely no intention whatsoever of recommending to the First Minister that we step away from it. Because those homes are very needed, and amongst the reasons they’re needed is because the Tory Governments over the years sold off social housing and refused to let local authorities replace it. So, I’m afraid I’m not really enamoured of your crocodile tears.

Questions now from the party spokespeople. Conservative spokesperson, Mark Isherwood. 

Diolch, Llywydd. 'From Caernarfon to Caerdydd: Reimagining Justice in Wales 2030', the consultation and discussion paper published by the Law Society in September, states that law firms operating in Wales will face a series of external challenges by the end of the decade. These include specialisation, recruitment and retention, technology, including AI, and the sustainability of the small local high-street firms.

How, therefore, have you responded, or will you respond, to the related statement in the paper that the Welsh Government is well placed to support the legal sector through increased support as an essential sector? 'We believe', they said,

'that The Welsh Government could...make renewed attempts at working in collaboration with the UK Government around these issues'.

Thank you, Mark. It’s a very good paper, and I’ve had the opportunity to discuss it with the Law Society. It has continued a trend across Wales, where firms have found it more and more difficult to continue in existence. I’m afraid the decimation of the legal aid system has really not helped there, where a large number of smaller firms relied very heavily on legal aid income in order to maintain the specialisms that they also maintained in those firms. That has become increasingly problematic with the decimation of legal aid.

I am looking forward to a law officers meeting in London—which was meant to be this week, but has, unfortunately, been delayed until January—in which I am hoping to discuss, across all four nations, what can be done to support legal services, particularly outside our cities. As a Government that believes in the rule of law, it is absolutely essential that people have access to good legal services, in order to be able to maintain their rights in a democracy. So, I assure you that I will be taking that up. I continue to have discussions with the Law Society locally, and I've asked them to do a small piece of work—I think I mentioned it to you the last time we had this exchange—on my behalf, and I'm looking forward to continuing those discussions with them. But I absolutely share that concern: we must have access to legal services across the piece for people in Wales.

Thank you. Clearly, this relates to the external challenges that they said lie ahead, and the many factors that have led to the situation currently applying. But whilst the paper states it's unashamedly Wales-centric, it adds that considerations and recommendations within this paper are applicable to areas of England with similar socioeconomic and demographic characteristics to Wales, such as the north-east and rural north-west England. Although I emphasised to your predecessors on many occasions that the cross-border nature of criminal activity must be central to the operation of justice and policing in Wales, the paper also identifies cross-border transactions as one of the key areas in which we do not have accurate, up-to-date data.

What action have you therefore taken, and will you take, to engage with the regions of England where the considerations and recommendations within the Law Society's paper are also applicable? And how have you responded, or will you respond, to the paper's statement that the Welsh and UK Governments should analyse the current available data sets and use this intelligence to initiate a systematic improvement in data in relation to the legal sector in Wales?

Thank you, Mark. So, I agree with that entirely. I'm hoping to raise that at the law officers meeting, as I mentioned. I'm also hoping to go to Manchester to look at the Manchester model on probation, with my colleague Jane Hutt, in the near future. We are looking at aspects of and exploring the further devolution of youth justice and probation to the Senedd. As part of that discussion, we will be talking to the metro mayors, amongst others, about how that works for them.

I do think it's fundamental to the point I made earlier, really: we need to see a full revision of the legal aid service across Wales and we need to understand the fundamentals of that, not only in citizens' access to justice, but actually in the viability of providing legal services across the piece. Because unless that work is properly paid, many of the smaller firms on high streets up and down the land, outside of cities, really cannot make ends meet, and therefore they cannot keep going, and that in itself is a real problem. So, I absolutely will be having those conversations with all of the law officers from the UK, and I hope very much to do that, in conjunction with the Deputy First Minister and the Minister for Social Justice, with the metro mayors as well.

Diolch. Continuing with the cross-border theme, the Thomas commission report makes only one reference to the key issue of cross-border criminality in the context of county lines, and the only solution it proposed was joint working across the four Welsh forces, in collaboration with other agencies, without any reference to established joint working with neighbouring partners across the invisible crime and justice border with England.

During a discussion of the prison problem on Radio 4's The Briefing Room programme last week, a former prison governor, inspector of prisons and head of an anti-corruption unit stated that, given that many of the services required to manage offenders, ex-offenders, and promote rehabilitation are already devolved to England's metro mayors, criminal justice should also be devolved to them, with prisons for serious crime retained at UK level. Given that many of the services required to manage offenders, ex-offenders and promote rehabilitation are also already devolved to Wales, what consideration have you given, or will you give, to a model such as this in discussion with UK Government counterparts?

Thank you, Mark. So, that's not actually in my portfolio, but I'm very involved in the discussions. That's a piece of work that's split between myself, the Minister for Social Justice and the Deputy First Minister. We're actually having a trilateral meeting to discuss it—Thursday, is it? Yes, Thursday this week. Because I accept the premise. The Welsh Government has long had an ambition to have criminal justice devolved to us, and we want to make youth justice the first step of that. It's the only part of child-centred services that isn't currently devolved to the Senedd, and we think it would make a lot of sense to start there. We will of course be pursuing that, and I was very pleased to see that exploring that possibility was part of the UK Labour Government's manifesto. As I said, we will be discussing that and a range of other issues with the metro mayors.

Various colleagues in the Government, not myself, have responsibility for the co-ordination of policing, which isn’t devolved of course, but the co-ordination and fallout from that is very much part of that. My colleague Jane Hutt has been very involved in those discussions. I did myself have the chance to meet the Police and Crime Commissioner for South Wales very recently and she brought up the point as well. So, we will be looking at that very carefully. I do think that county lines is one of the most difficult things we face. It is a terrible exploitation by organised crime of very vulnerable people in very difficult circumstances, and absolutely the fallout from that falls onto Welsh services. So, we take a close interest in that. As I say, my colleague Jane Hutt has been working on that for many years.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Adam Price.

Diolch, Llywydd. Tomorrow, a landmark case is being heard at the US Supreme Court, whose central question has direct relevance to secondary legislation introduced by the Welsh Government earlier in the year. The American Civil Liberties Union claim that the ban introduced by the state of Tennessee on prescribing puberty-blocking medicine to trans youth, while allowing their continued prescription for other purposes, is discriminatory on the basis of sex and gender identity and contrary to the equal protection provisions of the US constitution. The case is obviously being held in a different jurisdiction, but the policy introduced by the Welsh Government is similar in its effects, and article 14 of the European convention on human rights mirrors the provisions in terms of equal protection. So, can I ask the Counsel General if she agrees with her direct counterpart, I suppose, in this case, the attorney general of the state of Tennessee, that a ban on gender-affirming care for trans youth does not discriminate on the basis of either sex or gender identity?

I’m not familiar with the case at all, Adam. I’d be very grateful if you want to send me anything about it. I hadn’t picked it up. I’ll be looking at it from a very interested point. Obviously, the overall policy isn’t mine to look at, but I’d be very interested to see what the legal arguments there are. It’s something that we do need to keep an eye on. We are a very different jurisdiction, and indeed a very different social make-up, I’m very pleased to say. Opinion polls across Britain show a very different social attitude to the kinds of issues that you’re raising there. But I’m afraid I’m not familiar with the case at all and am not able to really comment on it with any legal certainty. But I’d be more than happy to look at it, it sounds very interesting.

I'm very grateful to the Counsel General for that offer of looking at the case and the issues that it raises in our context here in Wales. Earlier this year, the Welsh Government introduced a regulation to prohibit the prescription by GPs of puberty-suppressing medicines for new patients under 18 with gender dysphoria that were not part of a clinical trial. The explanatory memorandum for the regulation said that the Welsh Government’s obligations in respect of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child 'have been considered'. The Welsh Government is of course under a legal duty to give due regard to the convention under the terms of the Rights of Children and Young Persons (Wales) Measure 2011. Article 12 says that the opinions of children and young people should be considered when people make decisions about things that involve them. Yet that same explanatory memorandum, Counsel General, said,

'No consultation has taken place with persons to represent the interests of those who may require puberty blockers for gender dysphoria.'

How is that consistent in legal terms with the Welsh Government’s obligations under the convention? And can the Counsel General say or find out if a child rights impact assessment report was produced?

I’m afraid I don’t know the answer to that second one, I will certainly find out for you. I’m not really familiar with the ins and outs of it, I’m afraid. I’m just being told by my colleague that it’s an NHS England—[Interruption.] Sorry, say again. [Interruption.] Yes, we access the services via NHS England. But, Adam, I’m afraid I just don’t know the detail that you’ve read out there. I will have to respond to you in writing. I’d actually really appreciate a conversation with you about it as well; it’s something I’m very interested in. So, I will look into that for you, but I don’t have that answer at my fingertips, I’m afraid.

The regulations were originally introduced in England, but identical provisions have been produced in Wales. In fact, there is a measure currently before the Senedd that amends them.

The Council of Europe this week has raised serious legal and ethical concerns about the implications of only offering puberty-blocking treatment to patients that are on a clinical trial. In particular, it cites the additional protocol to the Oviedo convention, which says that persons being asked to participate in a research project shall be informed of their right to refuse consent and they shouldn't be subject to any form of discrimination. For many young people, the only way to receive puberty-suppressing treatment now will be to participate in the trial, which calls into question whether consent can be constituted as free and informed in those situations. So, can the Counsel General give a view now, or undertake to give us a view in due course, having considered the matter further, as to whether she believes that the policy of the Welsh Government is consistent with the terms of the Oviedo convention, as I have suggested them? And I look forward to having a further conversation with her on this matter.

I'm not in a position to answer that, Adam. I just do not have enough information at my fingertips and it needs a carefully considered answer. It's something I'm very interested in looking at. I will certainly have a further conversation with you about it and respond in writing. I'll have a further conversation with my colleague the Minister for health on the subject as well. So, I'll have to come back to you on that, I'm afraid. 

Diolch, Rhys. Under the proposals set out in our White Paper, the functions currently exercised by the school exclusion appeal panels would be transferred to a new first-tier tribunal for Wales. This would be administered by a statutory body, at arm's length from the Welsh Government.

Thank you very much, Cwnsler Cyffredinol. If we went this afternoon to the youth court in Cardiff or Swansea, I can guarantee you that we'd meet youngsters who had been excluded from school. It's well documented, the impact that long-term school exclusion can have on young people entering the criminal justice system. Now, I was disappointed, and I mentioned this to the previous Counsel General, that the school exclusion panels were not included in the Welsh tribunal reform, because the work they do is hugely influential on a young person's life. Now, it is important, as you're well aware, that their work is independent and also appears to be independent. However, the members of these panels are often appointed by the local authorities, the clerks are employed by the local authorities and the hearings are usually held within local authority buildings—so, it all sways towards one party of the appeal. Currently, the only route of appeal is a judicial review, which is beyond the means of most of us. Hopefully this review of the tribunal system can include the second, upper tribunal as part of the appeal process for school exclusion. But, how will you secure that justice with regard to school exclusion appeals so that's it's not only done, but seen to be done? Diolch yn fawr.

Thank you very much for that. So, protecting judicial independence and giving greater structural independence to the administration of justice is absolutely a key objective of the structural reforms we're proposing to modernise the tribunal system. So, you've got to the nub of the matter straight off, which is exactly that it needs to be done and it needs to be seen to be done. I don't consider, personally, that those involved in the current exclusion of a child from school approach those decisions lightly—far from it—and, in a previous life, I was part of the process myself. We took very seriously both the training and the independence of the process. But, the consequences for the child and for the school are of the highest significance, you're absolutely right. And my colleague the Minister for Education is very exercised about the whole issue around exclusions and making sure that each child has the right opportunity for an education. So, the decision making must be consistent and it must be unquestionably independent in the future. The Thomas commission said that decisions of this weight should have judicial scrutiny. So, I think we're in agreement about that. We've been clear that our intention is to replace the locally constituted panels with decisions in the new tribunal system at the first tier, and that approach has had clear support from respondents to the White Paper consultation across the board as well. So, that is our intention. If we're able to bring the tribunals Bill forward in this Senedd term, which I very much hope we will be able to do, then that is our intention currently. 

Having Wales-specific data is very important to understand how justice services are working in Wales—as I've just been discussing with Mark Isherwood, in fact—including the impact on devolved services. We've taken forward a number of our own initiatives in this area, as well as our continuing conversations with the Ministry of Justice.

I agree with you, Cwnsler Cyffredinol, and the Ministry of Justice agrees with us. Back in 2017, a working group from the Ministry of Justice said that it is important to have disaggregated Welsh data, and that’s been echoed by politicians here, by committees here and in Westminster. In fact, the Equality and Social Justice Committee inquiry into women’s experience of the criminal justice said that they couldn’t have a full picture of how women from Wales experience the criminal justice system because of the lack of disaggregated data. Now, a perfect example of this is a recent freedom of information application by Dr Robert Jones for the number of Welsh women who are pregnant in prisons being refused because it was too complicated. Now, we are told we won’t have any FOI requests from Dr Robert Jones. So, how on earth we going to know (1) how many Welsh people are in prison, (2) how many women from Wales are in prison and where they are held, and (3) the breakdown of Welsh prisoners by ethnicity. My question is simple: if the Ministry of Justice sees the applications by Robert Jones as vexatious, when will we have routinely published Welsh disaggregated data? Diolch yn fawr.

We agree with you about the importance of the data, just to be really clear. The Welsh Government absolutely agrees with that. My colleague the Minister for Social Justice—and a large number of other titles, the Trefnydd and Chief Whip—is meeting them tomorrow, or this week, certainly. [Interruption.] Tomorrow, is it? [Interruption.] Anyway, it’s very soon. One of the conversations is exactly about that, Rhys. It is exactly about how we can make sure that we have the right services in place if we don’t have the right data on which to base them. We are very sure that we need that disaggregated data. We are pushing for it. I can’t comment on the FOI matter; that’s not a matter for us. But I can assure you that we are pushing ourselves for as much disaggregated data as possible. We will be speaking to HM Prison and Probation Service about the data in Welsh prisons, but I can tell you that both I and my colleague the Minister for Social Justice have been exercised about women’s roles in the prison service and where they end up, and what we know about them, for some considerable time. So, I completely agree with the thrust of your question. I can assure you we are pushing as hard as we can to get that data so we can properly understand the impact of it.

I just want to add my concerns to those raised by Rhys ab Owen because, without Robert Jones’s hard work using FOIs to find out what the situation is, we wouldn’t know that there is a 40 per cent over-representation of black and ethnic minority people in our prisons as well as the continued increased use of prison sentences for imprisoning women with sentences of as little as one month, which have absolutely no value in terms of rehabilitation; they just cause women to lose their jobs, their homes and their children. So, I would like to add my concerns to those of others that we must have disaggregated data as well as a clear path to the devolving of criminal justice so that we can address these horrendous problems and rectify them here in Wales.

I'm absolutely agreeing with that. The data in the fact files are not fully verified because of the way that Dr Jones has had to put them together. But if the Ministry of Justice published data on the justice system in Wales on a more routine and transparent basis, it would negate the need for that amount of work. So, this is a point that my colleague Jane Hutt is going to be making very forcibly.

Of course, the roots of over-representation of certain ethnic minorities in the criminal justice system run very deep indeed, and that's why we need the comprehensive approach that is our 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan', which we just refreshed now in November, and why we need to take action on it. It's why we also welcome the criminal justice system in Wales devising its own anti-racism plan, including specific commitments in areas such as staffing and leadership within the system to try to make a small inroad into taking that forward.

I could not agree with you more about the disruptive and unnecessary impact of short prison sentences, specifically on women, but also, actually, on young men. Quite often, they're too short to have any kind of rehabilitative impact, and just long enough to completely destroy any semblance of a normal life—so, about the worst of all possible worlds. So, I couldn't agree with you more there. We also know that women are imprisoned for offences that, if you were a man, you would be unlikely to be imprisoned for, so there is real discrimination in the system there as well. There is clearly a lot more work to do, but over the period of the women's justice blueprint, which I really do want to pay tribute to my colleague Jane Hutt for, we have managed to divert around 2,300 women into early intervention support instead of prison. So, it is well worth doing. We need to continue to do that and redouble our efforts. So, I'm in agreement with you—the better the data we have, the better provision we can make, the better understanding we have of the impact and the better our provision can be. So, I think we're all in agreement.

Sorry, just to add to the list of Welsh data that's needed, we don't have Wales-only data on parental imprisonment, Welsh deaths in custody, as well as pregnancies and births. These are very vulnerable people who we have a responsibility for and to. So, I'm pleased to hear that you agree on the importance of this and that it's being pushed forward by your colleague. It really feels essential we get that within a short period of time in order for us to be able to see exactly what the picture is and the services that are necessary, and also the challenges that we can make as well. To not know how many Welsh people have died in custody, not just here in Wales, but across the UK, is shocking to me, and I'm sure it is to you. So, I'm pleased to hear that this is being pushed forward, and thank you for your commitment to this. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Thank you for that, Jane. I do absolutely agree with that—we do, of course, need to know. We do have to have some parameter discussions though. 'Welsh' is an interesting concept. I have always regarded myself as Welsh, but I spent 10 years living in London and would have had a London address, so there is a little bit of work for us to understand what we mean by 'Welsh'—people with a Welsh address at the point of imprisonment, for example, or expatriate Welsh people living in London. Sorry for the 'expatriate', but you know what I mean. So, there is a little bit of work to do about what we mean by that. People with dependents in Wales, for example, is one of the things.

My colleague is working very hard on this agenda. I and the Deputy First Minister are assisting in terms of what we can bring to bear with our particular ministerial partners in the UK Government, and, as I say, I'm meeting with the law officers more generally to discuss it. This isn't an issue just for Wales; this is an issue for the whole system. We are as good as the data we have in terms of the provision we make, so I absolutely agree with all of that.

And then, just the last thing to say on it is that that data around families, how many children are living with a family member in prison in the system and the impact that has on their continued well-being, their attendance at school, their general health, and mental health in particular, is one of the biggest impacts we have. The difficulty of a parent returning from prison, maintaining access with their children and making sure that that child has the full benefit of that is also one of the difficulties we have, and you can't really do anything about either of those without the data to go with it, either. So, there is a pressing need for this data, and we will be advancing that with all of our power.

Finally, question 5, Gareth Davies.

Thank you. The president of Welsh Tribunals' fifth annual report, Sir Gary Hickinbottom’s first in his term as president, was laid before the Senedd earlier this year by my predecessor. The First Minister and I met with the president to discuss his report, and I expect a debate will be scheduled in due course.

Thank you very much, Counsel General. I understand that the Welsh Government has plans to introduce a Bill to the Senedd next year to reform Welsh Tribunals, and I'm keen to know if the Counsel General can provide some more clarity as to what she hopes will be included in the Bill, and whether she has some certainty regarding the timetabling of the Bill. The president of the Welsh Tribunals' fifth annual report, like the previous two reports, highlighted that the Welsh Tribunals have suffered from a lack of resources for a number of years, and their funding requirements seem to be spiralling upwards. I think making the tribunal service more accountable to the people is a good idea, but we need to know how this will look and how the funding issues will be solved. The president also said that the Welsh Tribunals not having access to training materials from the Judicial College is becoming a real issue. So, I'd like to know if the Counsel General is also working to persuade the Judicial College to extend their remit to cover devolved tribunals. Also, on the funding issue, the spiralling costs are, of course, largely due to inflation, but I'd like to know how the Welsh Government's plans for reform will ensure that an independent Welsh tribunals service will receive sufficient resources and will not require significant funding increases year on year. Thank you.

Thank you very much for that, Gareth. The president of Welsh Tribunals's annual report sets out an assessment of past performance and priorities for future improvement. It's an important report. We've made a decision as a Government that we will lay the report before the Senedd each year and we will facilitate a debate in Government time. In previous years, that debate has taken place at around this time of the year, but due to the number of meetings that have taken place between Ministers and the president, it is slightly delayed. That's not because it's not important, it's because the chronology is important and it's important to lay it at the right time and they must be done in order. So, we will be bringing that debate and you will have the opportunity to make those points again. We do take them very seriously, the ones that are directed at the Welsh Government, and all views expressed by the president are taken seriously. That's an important part of why the First Minster and I met him very recently, and I've met him myself, as well.

We do continue to work on the development of the tribunals Bill and we plan to address recommendations from both the Commission on Justice in Wales and the Law Commission report on devolved tribunals in Wales in the Bill. I'm afraid I can't say at what stage the Bill will be introduced, because that's dependent on the First Minister's legislative statement. But I can tell you that we are working diligently on preparing the Bill and I hope that it will be in the fifth year of this Senedd, but we have a number of hurdles, including my discussion with the Business Committee about the programme. I am hoping that the First Minister will be able to introduce her legislative statement on the fifth year slightly earlier than we would normally do so in order to be able to prepare us for fifth-year Bills. So, I'm very much looking forward to that, but I'm not able to say categorically at this point that it's definitely in the programme—that will be a matter for the First Minister.

Thank you, Counsel General.

The next item is the business statement and announcement. I call on the Trefnydd, Jane Hutt.

Thank you, Llywydd. There are no changes to this week's business. Draft business for the next three weeks is set out on the business statement and announcement, which is available to Members electronically.

Can I call for two statements today from the Welsh Government, please? The first is in relation to waiting times, in particular in north Wales, from the Cabinet Secretary for health. I was very surprised to see that, of the 24,000 people in Wales waiting for over two years for treatment, over 10,000 of those—42 per cent—are patients in the Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board area. That's 42 per cent of those waiting over two years, in spite of the fact that just 22 per cent of Wales's population lives in that region. Clearly, it's unacceptable to have such regional inequality in terms of access to health services, and we do need to see action taken by the Welsh Government to make sure that north Wales's capacity to deal with those waiting lists is addressed. So, I would appreciate it if we could have a specific statement from the Welsh Government on the issue in north Wales.

Secondly, the Royal National Institute of Blind People published a report on barriers to those people with sight impairments in terms of their ability to cast their ballots at elections in a secret way. Many of those people who were subjected to a survey—only 26 per cent, I think—said that they currently feel able to vote independently. Clearly, we need to do something about that to make sure that our democracy, which was founded on a secret ballot, is something that people can enjoy whether they have a disability or not. I would appreciate knowing from the Welsh Government what action they intend to take in order to address this, particularly at the next Senedd elections, given that they're looming.

Diolch yn fawr, Darren Millar. Thank you for those questions. The Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care has noted your question in terms of waiting times in north Wales, and of course, addresses these with Betsi Cadwaladr, alongside all the other health boards. And, indeed, the First Minister also responded, but I can assure you that this is noted on the record today.

Your second point is very relevant today, as it is the UN's international day of disabled people. We've just launched a really important Disability Wales Access to Politics peer network. This, as you know, is also part of the way in which we're working together and consulting on draft diversity and inclusion guidance towards enabling people to put themselves forward—diverse people, reflecting the diversity of Wales—for the Senedd election, and, indeed, local government elections. So, I will take this back, because I would say that it's the responsibility of my colleague Jayne Bryant as Cabinet Secretary for Local Government and Housing, and myself, in terms of overcoming those barriers, particularly responding to the RNIB report, which, of course, we have to address.

Trefnydd, I'd like to request a statement following the press release yesterday issued by the First Minister regarding the £157 million of additional funding. I think it's important that we have clarity in terms of the breakdown, because it says in the press release that it's a mixture of both revenue and capital—to have that breakdown would be extremely helpful. Obviously, a written statement has been issued regarding one element, which is the Arts Council of Wales's job protection and organisation resilience fund. Given the interest that there has been in this Chamber and from the committee chaired by Delyth Jewell on this matter, I think having clarity and an opportunity to discuss are really important—also to give clarity to these organisations. We know there have been so many job losses, and so many organisations have had to stop functioning or cut services, so to really understand the impact of this funding, and what it means for these organisations across Wales, is crucial.

Diolch yn fawr, Heledd Fychan. I'm sure you will have welcomed the £157 million, but we will, of course, provide that clarity of detail.

Could I ask for a statement on the provision of primary care services? In the spring of this year, the Aneurin Bevan health board awarded the contract for primary care services in Brynmawr to a Dr Ahmed and a Dr Allinson. Both are directors of over 70 companies, mainly called E Harley Street. Since the awarding of this contract, we've seen a serious and continuing deterioration of services in Brynmawr. I also understand that E Harley Street owes doctors and locums up to £250,000, and many doctors are now, understandably, refusing to work for E Harley Street and refusing to work in Brynmawr. I further understand that the company has significant debts to HMRC and to suppliers. On top of this, the practice manager was summarily dismissed last week. So, this company, with questionable business practices, can't find doctors and can't pay its bills.

In our experience in Blaenau Gwent, this does not reflect the founding values of the national health service. Clearly, many of these matters are for the health board, but the Welsh Government does have oversight of the delivery of health services across Wales and has to take a view when we have these businesses that seem more intent on the pursuit of profit than the delivery of services affecting the primary care and fundamental services offered to my constituents. I hope we can have a statement, Trefnydd, to understand what happens when a provider of services fails. 

Thank you very much, Alun Davies. The Welsh Government is aware of local concerns, and you've brought this to our attention here in the Chamber today, around practices managed by E Harley Street. It is, as you say, the responsibility of the health board, the planning and delivery of primary medical services to their population, including managing contracts for primary care services. Those general medical services contracts were awarded by Aneurin Bevan earlier this year. But the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care will write to you on this matter and will be able to update you on the response.

Trefnydd, I would like to request an urgent statement from the Cabinet Secretary for health on ambulance response times in relation to falls. The weekend before last, an elderly woman from my region fell and broke her hip. The family called for an ambulance and then they were asked to wait. The patient was initially instructed not to have any food, water or pain medication until an ambulance had arrived. After waiting for nearly a day, the family were instructed that the patient could have something to eat and drink, along with some pain medication. Finally, after 30 hours, with no sign of an ambulance, the family decided to transport the patient themselves, despite a suspected hip fracture, as the alternative was to leave the elderly woman lying on the floor in serious pain and discomfort.

Sadly, this case is far from unique. I appreciate that the Cabinet Secretary has instigated a review into the appropriateness of emergency ambulance response measures and targets. However, I would suggest that such reviews take time and that people are dying, and will die, in the interim. While working as an orthopaedic surgeon, I undertook extensive research and produced several papers on mortality rates in people with hip fractures. Any delay in treatment resulted in increased mortality. I found that a delay in operating within 48 hours of the fracture occurring resulted in a doubling of the mortality rate, regardless of age. A 65-year-old person was just as likely to die as a frail 95-year-old. What hope do our constituents have if they can't even get to a hospital in the first place? Therefore, Trefnydd, it is vital that the Welsh Government addresses these issues, and I call for an urgent statement. Diolch yn fawr.

Thank you very much indeed, Altaf Hussain. Thank you for sharing not only the circumstances you raise with us today, but also your experience as a former clinician, as an elected Member to this Senedd, which we, of course, respect. It is important, as the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care has been responding, particularly in terms of ambulance services. The issue around ambulance patient handover delays across Wales is something that he is addressing, because it does have an impact on ambulance service resources. We've been very clear about this with health boards. It was set out in the NHS Wales planning framework and featured as part of LHB chairs' objectives. We've invested £180 million in additional funding this year, which is to help safely manage more people in the community, avoid unnecessary transport and admission to hospital and to deliver integrated solutions. And, of course, we've got the new ambulance patient handover guidance from 29 October. But I know that the Cabinet Secretary will be addressing this as part of his 50-day challenge statement this afternoon.

I'd like a debate in Government time, please, to address the ongoing challenges after storm Bert. The flooding that hit our communities last week dominated headlines, and even though the water levels have gone down, the damage remains. I want to make sure the focus doesn't leave those places when the clean-up ends, because people are frightened. So many streets and businesses that were hit by flooding in 2020 have been affected again in Ystrad Mynach, Llanbradach, Blackwood and Bedwas. People are worried about when it will happen again. We're only at the beginning of the winter. We can expect more storms. We need to reassure residents that there's a plan to protect them.

We've also seen a coal tip slip down a mountain in Cwmtillery and a sinkhole open in a housing estate in Merthyr Tydfil, which seems to have been caused by a culvert collapsing in heavy rain. People across the Valleys will be worrying. There have been landslips in other villages too. So, can we have a Government debate to address people's concerns and explain what urgent steps the Government will take to protect our communities and all the people who live there?

Thank you very much, Delyth Jewell. It is important that you return to this issue today, because of the impact of the flooding events in the communities that you represent, and also in the region, but also, of course, what Alun Davies has brought in terms of the situation in his constituency, in terms of the landslide and the impact it is having on the community, and the clear-up. Of course, funding was announced last week, but we need to make sure the communications get out there in terms of how people can seek the support that they need through these very difficult days after that flooding, when the publicity goes off the front page.

I'd like to ask you, please, for an urgent statement on the issue of fuel poverty. We've seen the changes to winter fuel payments introduced by the UK Labour Government significantly increase hardship for thousands of pensioners this winter, and in my home county of Powys, 90 per cent of pensioners will lose out on this vital support. The Welsh Government's Warm Homes programme, whilst well intentioned, is progressing far too slowly. At the current pace, the Bevan Foundation reports it will take 136 years to address all fuel-poor households, which is an unacceptable generational failure. It's further exacerbated by outdated data on fuel poverty here in Wales, relying on housing stock surveys decades old, hampering our ability to be effective.

We are, once again, halfway through this winter, and this issue has been raised time and time again. So, what will you do on behalf of the Government here in Wales to ensure that our homes are warm and that this programme can continue at pace and at scale? Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Diolch yn fawr, Jane Dodds. I would like to make a statement. I will seek the business time, or indeed start with a written statement. I do want to respond to the all-important question, into these winter months, of how we as a Government are tackling fuel poverty and investing in Warm Homes, because it is a joint responsibility of myself and Jane Bryant, just in terms of the Warm Homes Nest scheme. It's £30 million to reduce the number of low-income households living in cold, damp homes, and that's our primary mechanism to tackle fuel poverty. But, of course, what's important for those households who do benefit from the Warm Homes Nest scheme is not only packages to insulate and decarbonise their home, but also advice and guidance to all of those households. In fact, the Cabinet Secretary for Housing and Local Government I know has answered questions on this point.

We have to maximise income, build financial resilience, put money back into people's pockets, and I think the discretionary assistance fund and the crisis fund for people provide support for fuel and energy costs in crisis situations. We're supporting the UK Government's campaign to get eligible pensioners signed up for pension credit, so that they can access the winter fuel support scheme. But also, we are investing in the Fuel Bank Foundation, as you know, with £700,000 more funds to enable people on prepayment meters and off-grid to access that funding. But to bring it all together, I will do a statement, and find time to do a statement on tackling fuel poverty in Wales.

Trefnydd, following the devastating flooding caused by storm Bert, the Welsh Government's response to helping businesses affected was found severely lacking. Could we therefore have a statement, please, from the Welsh Government outlining what financial support is available for businesses that have been affected?

And also, additionally, sorry, can we have a statement from the Welsh Government to hear their plan on how they intend to enable those with disabilities to have as unrestricted a life as possible? It was very disappointing today, this International Day of Persons with Disabilities, that the Government statement was cut from the agenda, considering the impact it normally has.

Thank you very much, Laura Anne Jones. I know the economy Minister has already responded and is taking forward the issues in terms of support and response to the businesses who are affected by the flooding. Again, it goes back to Delyth Jewell's point, that we need to make sure that this is obviously, clearly on the agenda. It's clear, for Welsh Government, we're taking those responsibilities forward.

I was very pleased to attend today—I'm sure many of you were able to attend the events that took place in the Senedd for the International Day of Disabled People. What was really good was that we were able to speak about Disability Wales's Access to Politics peer network, which we as a Welsh Government are funding. I issued a written statement today on the International Day of Disabled People, and I will be doing an oral statement in the new year to update on the plans we have to deliver our disability rights action plan.

Could I have a statement by the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care about the announcement that was made last week by Hywel Dda University Health Board about the possibility that it may be necessary to wait another 10 years before seeing the building of a new hospital in west Wales? Now, for those of us who live in that area, we know that the current hospitals, Glangwili and Withybush, find it difficult to provide the level of clinical support that's needed. The conversations about the new hospital started in 2006, so with a delay of 10 years, it may be 28 years of raising hopes and empty promises. So, as you know, this is entirely unacceptable. 

So, there is a need for urgent investment on the estates. We need new technology, purpose-built facilities and modern clinical equipment in order to provide the best possible care for patients in the area. Therefore, could I ask for a statement by the Cabinet Secretary to explain how he intends to deliver this and how the Welsh Government intends to support the health board to see the building of a new hospital in the area? 

Thank you very much for that very important question. 

It's quite clear that this is part of capital planning for modernising and renewing our estates across Wales, which is the responsibility of the health boards, but very clearly working in partnership in terms of our NHS estates capital programme. But your points have been taken and noted today.

I would like to ask for two Government statements. The first is on physician assistance. Like many Members in the Senedd, I've had substantial correspondence on the subject. Those in favour argue that it provides additional qualified support to physicians, thus improving productivity. Those against say we would be better off spending the money producing more doctors. I have no strong views either way on this but I would like to have a Government statement saying what the Government's thinking is on physician assistance.

I'm also asking for a statement on the Teacher Booker system that the Welsh Government are trialling. I believe in the direct employment of supply teachers either by schools or local authorities. I have never supported a supply agency model of providing supply teachers, so an update on where you've got with the Teacher Booker system I think would be useful. 

Thank you very much for those questions. 

On that point, obviously, I would raise this with the education Minister. But also we have asked in terms of the—. We need a tripartite approach to define the scope of work, because we do have 200 physician associates in Wales, and we need to understand it across the board in terms of its role. 

I would like to have a statement from the Cabinet Secretary for health, if possible, please, because two weeks ago I raised the issue that Glan Clwyd Hospital, to my grave concern, are conducting 4,000 fewer operations in 2023 than they were in 2019, and this is despite long waiting times locally and nationally, which the Cabinet Secretary for health is going to speak about next. But before Christmas we don't have a statement or any sets of questions forthcoming from the Government in order to raise this issue. So, can I please have a statement regarding this matter, what the Welsh Government's response is and what remedial work the Welsh Government will undertake with Betsi Cadwaladr in order to solve this problem, which, essentially—? Before COVID-19, they were conducting, as I say, 4,000 more operations than they currently are, and we need to get to the bottom of what the reason is behind some of those staggering statistics.

Well, I think you're going to be able to have an opportunity now to question, very shortly, the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care, because this is, you know, in terms of the way forward, the 50-day recognition of what we can do in terms of productivity. I think you're going to hear some really important, positive news, as you know, from the statement, in due course.

I'd like to ask for two statements, Trefnydd. I'd like the Government to make a statement on its response to the ongoing situation in Gaza, and particularly its response to the Future Generations Commissioner for Wales's recent letter to the First Minister, which states that the conflict demands Wales's continued attention and action, both for those affected abroad and for communities in Wales, in line with our statutory commitments to be a globally responsible nation under the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015. The war directly affects many people here in Wales, with many having lost loved ones, and there are constituents in all parts of Wales holding vigils and weekly protests in order to draw attention to the horrors that are happening there on a daily basis. Over a year has now passed since the Senedd formally discussed the situation in Gaza. Since then, the situation has changed and escalated, so we need to hear the Government's response to the calls made by so many of its citizens. It's the defining moral issue of our time, and it's an issue that is directly relevant to the Welsh Government's responsibilities.

I would also like to echo the disappointment of Laura Anne Jones to the decision to scrap the planned oral statement for today on the International Day of Disabled People. As well, I welcome that you're going to give an oral statement in the spring on the progress of the disability rights taskforce. But I would also draw your attention to the fact that we need to hear about the lack of progress too, and the reasons for that, on incorporating the United Nations convention on the rights of disabled people, and also address the disability employment gap, which is considerably higher in Wales than in the rest of the UK. Diolch.

Thank you very much for your question—two very important questions.

I've just seen today the letter from the future generations commissioner, which I'm grateful for in terms of—. You may be aware that we are looking to ways in which we can discuss, debate the situation in Gaza, in this Senedd, which is very important, as you say. I know the First Minister has responded to questions very directly on this—obviously, not devolved, but we have our responsibilities in terms of our communities, which we are engaging with, and that's important for all of us here in this Chamber.

Yes, I've issued a written statement today on the International Day of Disabled People. You will see in it that I address not only just progress in terms of the disability rights taskforce—I want to give much more detail in an oral statement in the new year—but also I have addressed the issue of progress and the work that's being undertaken, which you'll be aware, is part of the human rights advisory group that I chair, in relation to the incorporation of the UN convention on the rights of disabled people into Welsh law.

Well, I chaired the session of the International Day of Disabled People Senedd event with Disability Wales earlier, promoting the rights and well-being of disabled people. And I call for a Welsh Government oral statement here accordingly, because that's what they've called for today.

This year the theme, as you know, is amplifying the leadership of disabled people for an inclusive and sustainable future, emphasising the importance of advancing leadership and agency of disabled people and disabled people's organisations. In Wales, however, substantial progress is still needed to meet national obligations, under the sustainable development goals and the United Nations convention on the rights of disabled people.

Disability Wales welcomed the Welsh Government's creation of the disability rights taskforce, to produce an action plan with recommendations for tackling systemic barriers to disabled people's equality and rights in Wales. However, when I opened the All Wales People First touring exhibition in north Wales yesterday, I again heard that the requirement, in the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014, to give disabled people real voice, choice and control in decisions that affect their lives was not being complied with. I call for an oral statement to this Senedd, this Parliament, in this Chamber accordingly.

Thank you very much, and as I've said, I'm doing an oral statement to address those points in the new year. But I do urge you to look at my written statement.

And finally, Mabon ap Gwynfor.

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Dirprwy Lywydd. Can I ask for a statement from the Government on what action the Government can take to assist people fleeing violence and genocide in Darfur and southern Sudan? I got the opportunity to meet young men from southern Sudan. They were Zaghawa people who were living primarily in Chad, because they were fleeing the genocide, and then travelling from Chad through Northern Africa to Tunisia, over the ocean into Italy, and then through to France, and they were explaining why they wanted to come to the UK and to Wales for assistance, simply because they could speak—. They learnt English in school, and they learnt about the UK.

There’s no safe passage for people from southern Sudan to Wales and to the UK, but they need assistance. They are facing genocide. They were explaining how many of their family members had been killed and murdered, and young boys were being brought in to fight a civil war there. So, they need as much help as possible, and I’d like to understand what assistance the Welsh Government could provide to the people of that area.

Thank you for drawing that to our attention today, Mabon ap Gwynfor, and I very much look to our Wales and Africa programme, and indeed look also to the engagement that we have with our diaspora from Sudan here in Wales and the sub-Saharan diaspora advisory committee. So, thank you for bringing this to our attention, and we will obviously look at it in terms of what we could do, or how we can also make representations, indeed, to the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office.

Thank you, Trefnydd.

Item 4 today is a statement by the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care, new 50-day challenge to improve hospital discharge and community care. And I call on the Cabinet Secretary, Jeremy Miles. 

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. Our health and social care services are under significant pressure. The picture in Wales is similar to that in other parts of the UK. People are living longer, which is a real positive, and that's thanks in large part to improved living standards and advances in healthcare. But more people are living with multiple chronic, long-term health conditions, which means they have complex health and care needs. This, in turn, puts greater demands on our health and care services. Our challenge is to provide the right balance of care and support at or as close to home as possible to support people so that they can live independent lives in their local communities.

But, at the moment, we haven’t got this balance right.

We know this because around 1,600 people are currently delayed in hospital. They are medically ready to leave, but they are unable to go because they are waiting for an assessment or a package of care to support them at home. For these people, staying in hospital for a long time is not good for their long-term health and well-being.

There are also many people who are being admitted to hospital who could have been better supported either at home or in the community, if the right services were available. We want people to be cared for in their own homes, or in their local communities, wherever possible, because all the evidence shows that’s where they do best.

Such high levels of delayed discharges, or pathways of care delays, have knock-on consequences for the wider health and care system. Because the back door to the NHS is effectively closed, there is no flow through the system and the front door increasingly becomes jammed. We see this in long waits for people to be admitted to a hospital bed, in ambulances queuing for hours outside emergency departments to hand over patients, and in a lack of ambulance capacity to respond to new 999 calls in the community.

Dirprwy Lywydd, the NHS and local authorities have worked very hard in the two years since the pandemic to address these pressure points, to reduce the number of people who are delayed in hospital and to increase community capacity. Since I've been in post, the Minister for social care and I have been having monthly care action committee meetings with local authorities and NHS colleagues to discuss actions to address pathways of care delays and build community capacity. These meetings have given us a real focus on those people who are currently delayed in hospital today and the reasons why. I'll say more about the care action committee in a moment.

The real solution lies in longer-term transformation, and the development of an integrated community care system for Wales, with the right balance of community capacity to help people stay well at home. This will create the best possible opportunity to strengthen preventative services to help people live well for as long as possible.

While we work towards this long-term transformation, we continue with our focus on immediate actions through the care action committee. Since 2023, the committee has had three key priorities, each designed to support improvements in the here and now and to lead to better experiences and outcomes for people. These are, firstly, reducing pathways of care delays; secondly, increasing weekend district nursing and palliative care nursing hours to support seven-day access; and, thirdly, enhancing community support for step-up and step-down care to and from hospital.

The Minister for social care and I have met all the seven regions to hear in detail about their joint working, about what is working well and what’s having the greatest impact. I have been very encouraged by the work and the plans already in place across Wales, and have seen many examples of strong relationships and actions being implemented, but these need to be shared more widely. Examples include the pink army in the Cardiff and Vale region, which is using integrated and innovative approaches to providing community care and supporting discharge. The west Wales integrated urgent care model and navigation streaming hub are providing complex and integrated care in the community, preventing people needing to be admitted to hospital, as well as supporting timely discharge for others. And Cwm Taf Morgannwg’s optimise model and integrated white board technology are supporting a cross-sector approach to planning and managing access to care.

The care action committee work led to the development of the 50-day integrated winter care challenge and the list of the 10 best practice initiatives. The 50-day challenge, which is almost at its halfway point, is designed to rapidly accelerate existing work and create a consistent national effort to improve health and social care flow in the run-up to end of the year, when winter pressures traditionally reach their peak. This will not solve the entire problem of hospital flow or pathways of care delays, but it will ensure a collective national focus on the issue and the best practice interventions, it will help more people return home in time for Christmas, and give us valuable learning about what works and where the gaps still are. It will also set the stage for continued improvements and lead to a more sustainable, resilient and consistent level of system performance, steering us towards our long-term goal of an integrated community care system for Wales.

To support the 50-day challenge, we already have key resources and programmes in place. This includes the £146 million regional integration fund, £5 million to increase allied health professional capacity, and £11.95 million through the Further Faster initiative to build community capacity specifically. Recognising the extreme pressures on our system, I have secured an additional £19 million to support the 50-day challenge. This includes £10 million for local authorities to support reablement and domiciliary care capacity, and £9 million for the NHS specifically for community-based care.

Dirprwy Lywydd, our health and social care system faces significant challenges, particularly during the winter months, but, by working across the NHS and local government, and by focusing on what we know works, with some additional investments, we are taking robust steps to build capacity in our communities and to help people return home when they are ready. The 50-day challenge is just one part of this effort. It's a focused and accelerated approach to addressing immediate pressures, whilst also laying the groundwork for longer-term transformation. With the continued commitment and collaboration of our health and social care partners, we can create a more resilient and effective system that meets the needs of people both today and in the future.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary, for your statement in the Chamber here this afternoon. I certainly welcome your acknowledgement of the problems with hospital discharge and the challenges with community care being delivered as well, and I join you in recognising the efforts by our really hard-working health and social care workers across Wales in looking to tackle this problem and work within the systems that are put upon them. And as you’ve acknowledged in your statement today, there is more to be done than just a 50-day burst to solve these problems. Whilst there is some good that is likely to come out because of this, you acknowledge, rightly, that this is not the answer to all the problems; this is something that is going to help address some of the challenges that present themselves at the moment.

It is fair to say that, across the board, pressures facing our NHS are systemic and long term. You will recognise the record waiting lists, which continue to rise, with patient pathways now north of 800,000. You’ll also recognise that 23.3 per cent of the waits in Wales are a year or longer, with, I’m sure you’d acknowledge, too many people languishing in pain for far too long. It’s right to recognise that, sadly, in some hospitals, 20 per cent of beds are occupied by patients who either are waiting to leave or who need to leave, and it’s creating record levels of demand on our health and care services. Indeed, the challenges around the long-term plan for dealing with these waits have also been acknowledged by the Welsh NHS Confederation. In response to the 50-day challenge, they said that the challenge is insufficient on its own and will not achieve a sustainable health and care system in the long term.

So, I wonder, Cabinet Secretary, looking ahead, if you’d be able to talk to some of the more long-term solutions that you see, especially learning from this 50-day challenge that is being worked through at the moment. You’ve, helpfully, listed a number of exciting initiatives from across Wales that are going to be shared, we hope, across the nation, but when will you be indicating how many of the types of initiatives you see are to be there in the long term as well, not just for this 50-day period, so we can see that positive longer term change in our health service?

You’ve also acknowledged the important role of local authorities—councils—in helping to unblock some of the existing issues in the system at the moment. We know that councils are overstretched and under pressure, and I welcome the additional £10 million that you’ve announced here today. I’d be interested to know how much you think that is going to satisfy those funding challenges that councils have at the moment, so that they can adequately undertake the duties that are put upon them. Because what we can’t see is a risk of a passing on of the buck of responsibility to our councils without the appropriate level of funding to enable them to deliver the things that are being asked of them.

Finally, Deputy Presiding Officer, ensuring that people who are ready for discharge aren’t taking up beds that are desperately needed is the big challenge, not just in Wales but across other health systems as well, and that needs to be acknowledged. I wonder, on the specific problems and the specific challenges we have in Wales, whether some of that needs to be addressed through our staffing levels and how we have our training plans appropriately in place to ensure that our staffing levels are right in the future as well. So, I’d be interested to hear from you, Cabinet Secretary, how you’re working with colleagues across the Cabinet table to ensure that the career paths and the careers in both health and social care continue to be attractive and with a clear plan to attract people into those really important roles. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

I thank Sam Rowlands for those questions. He is right to say that the challenge of making sure that we can safely discharge home as rapidly as possible people who are waiting to leave hospital obviously is not a challenge unique to us in Wales; it’s a challenge that all parts of the NHS in all parts of the UK face.

What we have been able to do over the last couple of months in particular, as I was touching on in my initial statement, is really work very closely with regions, both health boards and local authorities, to be pragmatic about it, really, and to identify what are the most effective interventions, and they are all things, or at least the majority are things, on the list of 10 interventions that we are asking regions to put in place, that are already in place in different parts of Wales, we note, and that's where the evidence has come from.

We've seen in Cardiff and the Vale that the use of the pink army there and the integrated discharge arrangements has had a beneficial effect, as we've seen in the Member's own region as well, in different ways—I think they call it the 'blue army' in north Wales, for example. And they have a trusted assessor role, where assessment is done obviously in a much more streamlined, holistic way, and cuts out those delays in getting multiple assessments. So, there are things that are already happening. I've probably been using every single opportunity since I became Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care to emphasise just how important it is not just to be trying new approaches, but to identify what's already in the system that is working well and get better at sharing that, and this is exactly what this is designed to test, if you like. So, that's the approach that we're looking at here.

He's right to say, and I'm grateful to him for acknowledging that I had said this in the statement, that this is not a 50-day done and dusted project. One partner, one of the health boards, described it to me as, 'An intense focus in 50 days on the 20 years ahead', if you like, because of the demographic shift that all countries are facing, and I think I would recognise that.

So, the approaches, which are on the list of 10 things, are long-term changes. They are approaches that, if embedded successfully, as we hope they will be, will help to reconfigure the working relationship in particular between local authorities and health boards. But, ultimately, the long-term shift needs to be that which I was talking about in the statement, to make sure that as many people are treated outside hospital as possible. And we know that if you don't need to be in hospital, it's not a good place for you to be. That's why it's so important for us to help people to be discharged safely, so that focus on community services, and we support that with significant funding. But the Member is right to say that one of the challenges in making rapid progress at scale is the resource pressure that councils in particular are feeling, and that's why the £10 million focused specifically on reablement is about making sure that we can make people's discharge sustainable at home.

He asked me if I thought that there was sufficient resource in the system. Obviously it's been a difficult period for local authorities, facing competitive pressures in a range of key statutory and non-statutory responsibilities. In addition to the £10 million, much of the balance of £9 million will end up supporting local authorities in their responsibilities for care, so GPs supporting care homes, enabling people to be discharged into community beds, so that healthcare assessments can happen outside the hospital. All of those add up to a picture of support for local authorities, as well as the reablement funding specifically.

I am grateful to the Cabinet Secretary for his willingness to bring these details before us today, following the topical question tabled three weeks ago. As I mentioned at that time, the delayed discharge of patients from hospitals, which affects around 20 per cent of beds in some cases, has been a huge problem for some time, and is a reflection of the lack of structural alignment and of the availability of resources between the NHS and the care sector. The fact that the Cabinet Secretary has identified the failures that have occurred in the past and has demonstrated a new approach to this problem is to be welcomed, and we're ready to hold him to account on the targets that he has set.    

I fully acknowledge that the end of the 50-day period will be the appropriate time for such a full evaluation, and I would appreciate it if the Cabinet Secretary could commit to bringing a statement to the Chamber as soon as the 50-day period has expired. But it is worth noting that concerns have already been expressed regarding the capacity of health boards and local authorities to implement the objectives of the plan in practice. 

For example, during the latest meeting of the Aneurin Bevan board, the chief executive, Nicola Prygodzicz, spoke about her concerns about the health board's ability to release additional beds quickly enough to cope with the point of highest demand, which is likely to occur in mid January. Phil Robson, the board's special adviser, also spoke about how a lack of clarity regarding relevant arrangements with local care bodies is a barrier in this context. To quote him directly,

'I’m not impressed with some of the partnership stuff, it seems a bit woolly.'

So, may I ask for the Cabinet Secretary's response to these concerns, and how will he go about ensuring effective and systematic collaboration between the health boards and the local authorities?

I know that the Cabinet Secretary agrees with me that the key element here is to ensure that any success resulting from this plan won't just be temporary, and that there are measures in place with the health boards and the local authorities to embed good practice on an ongoing basis. In your response to my topical question on this subject, you mentioned that you are having conversations with partners during the 50 days about what resources might be needed to make the intervention sustainable. May I therefore ask for an update on these discussions and whether the Government has a further understanding of the kind of additional resources that may be needed beyond the 50-day period, especially when considering the concerns that have already been expressed by Aneurin Bevan health board?

And to conclude, I would like to return to the opening theme of my contribution, which is that this delay in discharging patients is a symptom of the fact that our care system is in no condition to achieve the aim of moving care closer to the community and the home, which is a point that the Cabinet Secretary himself made in his opening remarks. The Welsh NHS Confederation expressed a very simple message on this when the scheme was announced last month:

'Unless the broader challenges of demand and capacity across the whole health and care system are addressed, a 50-day challenge and action plan won’t be enough to achieve a sustainable health and care system in the long term.'

When I raised this during my topical question last month, the Cabinet Secretary said that he had not had the opportunity to fully consider the NHS confederation's assessment. So, now that you've had the time to reflect, what is your response? Thank you.

Thank you for those questions. The figures in terms of people who've been waiting longer than the time that they are ready to leave hospital have been dropping month on month throughout this year. So, that's encouraging. We need, of course, to go much further. That's the purpose of the programme. But that is at the heart of the pattern that we have been looking at and seeing. So, I don't think—. Resources are clearly important, and today's statement increases the resources available. We need to provide the resources that we have done, and that's in light of discussions with partners to see where the main pressures lie. It's clear with something like reablement, as it's the basis of everything else that you're trying to do to enable people to leave hospital, that it's a common theme, if you like. What that allows with these resources is that we can put the systems in place that can then be funded by the other funding programmes that we already have in place—and I outlined some of those in my statement this afternoon—and make those sustainable in the long term. But, as I'm sure the Member would recognise, when you're trying to implement reforms, one of the things that you have to do is to run two systems simultaneously, sometimes. So, you need funding and resources during that period so that you can transition to other ways of working that are more sustainable, including being more sustainable in terms of resourcing in the longer term. I would be willing, and intended to anyway, to make a further statement after the 50 days to be transparent on what has succeeded and what, perhaps, has been more challenging. 

The Member mentioned some of the challenges. I haven't heard the evidence directly, but I do accept that there are practical issues to work through. That has been part of the partnership work. I didn't hear the name of the individual who mentioned that this was 'woolly', but may I just be quite clear, for anyone involved in this process, partnership is at its core? So, if anyone feels that it's woolly, it's their responsibility to ensure that it isn't woolly. So, it's not just a matter of finger pointing; if partnership working needs to be improved, then every partner has a responsibility to do that. 

The final question that he asked was on the NHS confederation. Well, the statement is quite clear, isn't it? Nobody has said that this is the only thing that we're doing. So, on a general level, it's—I don't want to say 'superficial', but it's obvious. What I would say is that the members involved in the direct work of delivering this have been working well together, I think, and are committed to tackling this issue. We will see at the end of the 50 days what the picture is on the ground, but as I say, I will be more than happy to provide the Senedd with an update at that point.

Thank you very much for your important statement, which clearly shows that you're grasping the nettle. Being admitted to hospital is as risky as going bungee jumping, and most of us do not aspire to the latter. But, clearly, you need to be in hospital if you're having some major medical intervention, and it is the failure to get people out of hospital as soon as their medical treatment doesn't require it is what's preventing other people going into hospital for those types of operations.

I visited the pink army, and it's great to see the senior nurses co-located with the senior social workers, but there remains a huge amount more work to be done, because their aspiration is to turn around people who arrive in the emergency department and give them the care that they need in the community, where required.

Also, we could be accelerating the numbers of community nursing beds that are provided in care homes, obviously with the right personnel to go with them, because I have to say, having visited today, a busy teaching hospital is not the right place for end-of-life care. Community nursing teams are fantastic with their computerised team allocation systems, so the right person goes to the right patient. What are the main barriers to accelerating the community nursing teams to cover all community districts across Wales? Is it a shortage of district nurses, resistance to multidisciplinary working, or is it limited resources?

I thank the Member for those questions. I think she's right to say that no one intervention—and I would include the pink army in that—is the entire solution, and I'm sure that Cardiff and Vale health board would say that themselves. So, there's a menu, if you like, of 10 things that we're asking regions to put in place. One of them is an integrated approach, which the Member spoke about, but another is well-established, evidenced, flow frameworks within hospital, and a move towards seven-day working, so that patients can be discharged on the weekend; a specific focus on those patients with the longest waits; supporting GPs to support care homes where continuing healthcare assessments can be made in community beds, in the way that she was asking about, rather than in hospital, for the reasons that she gave; and helping GPs to proactively manage the 0.5 per cent highest risk population group in their clusters, with multiprofessional teams. We know those individuals are likely to be the ones who are most likely to be admitted to hospital. So, a specific approach in relation to those, if you like, higher risk cohorts, but also home-first approaches, hospital at home approaches, which a number of health boards are developing, where people get more care at home, and then an initiative I'm particularly keen on, given the questions that were asked in the business statement earlier, and that's a focus on seven-day community-based fall responses. So, we know that that can be a significant contributor to preventing admission to hospital. So, a range of interventions.

She asked about the availability of community nursing. I do think there's more to be done in terms of recruitment. I don't think it's particularly a resource issue; I think it's to do with the mix of nursing that's required. What we have set as one of the broader objectives of the care action committee is to increase district nursing capacity, for example, and that's been one of the more challenging priorities to make progress with, but it is something that the system is absolutely focused on.

Thank you for your statement this afternoon, Cabinet Secretary. I want to ask for your view on the efficacy of local authority funding that you've given, and how that works within the funding systems for care homes from local authorities. Because some of the care homes that I visit in my constituency, private care home providers, some are only operating at half capacity sometimes, because of funding issues from my local authority, Denbighshire County Council, which has the lowest care home fee across the north Wales authorities, unfortunately. In terms of the efficacy of it and how it's going to be felt locally through local authorities, do you have an assessment of that and a view on how that will be felt on the ground and whether it'll make any tangible changes to care home staffing, recruitment, workforce and all those things that are needed to run an efficient care home that patients can be safely discharged to? Thank you.

The Member asks a very important question. I think there are a number of factors behind what I think he's observing in the question. Firstly, as he will know, local authorities set the fees they're prepared to pay for care home placements, and sometimes that can be challenging. I'm not commenting specifically on his local authority area, but there can be challenges as a result of that. One of the things that we are doing to try and better understand that is, as we look, on a monthly basis, at the patterns of discharge in each of the regions, to look at the same time about the capacity in care homes that appears, at least, to be underutilised. There can be very good reasons for that. Not all discharges are appropriate for a care home setting. Sometimes there is a need for complex support that sometimes isn't available in care homes. One of the questions relates to the nature of the assessment at the point when the patient is discharged. If that assessment underestimates the level of support that a patient requires, then that can create quite a significant additional set of responsibilities at the care home that haven't been planned for. So, there are issues in the system, which we are addressing. In the Member's region, one of the more successful interventions has been a trusted assessor, where parties agree that there's one set of assessments done by one agency or one individual. That has, I think, started to get to grips with some of the challenges that I think he’s referring to.

And finally, Lesley Griffiths.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer, and thank you very much for your statement, Cabinet Secretary. I very much welcome the 50-day challenge, which was launched last month, because, as I mentioned in First Minister’s questions earlier this afternoon, it's essential that patient flow is improved if we are to see this whole process work far more smoothly. It's very good to see that this is a priority for you.

The majority of patients want to leave hospital and return home as quickly as possible. For that to happen in a timely manner, we need much better integration of our health and social care sectors. They need support to do that, and, more importantly, they need to improve. So, how will you ensure good practice travels, because it rarely does, with no postcode lottery across our very small country? What work is being done with third sector organisations, such as Care & Repair Cymru, for instance, to assist health boards and local authorities in delivering the 50-day challenge?

I agree entirely with what the Member has said. What we're testing, and we hope to succeed, obviously, with this approach, is exactly that point about good practice travelling. There's been quite intensive working and quite a lot of guidance provided about how best to implement the 10 interventions. What I think has been effective is we've heard many examples in those discussions of health boards visiting one another to see what's happening on the ground, and councils working, even within the same region, in different ways. Because, obviously, when you have a regional footprint, if you're a health board, there are different councils whose residents are in your hospital, naturally. So, there's a level of variation in those relationships. That is being worked through as part of this.

The integration agenda is clearly critical. The funding that we are distributing today will be distributed through the regional partnership boards, which provide a forum for third sector organisations to be part of the planning of the response in this way. That goal of an integrated community care system, genuinely integrated at a community level, providing that holistic health and care set of services, is the goal that we are working towards. Obviously, it's an ambitious objective that will take some time to realise in full, but there are a number of our key national policies and programmes that, ultimately, have that as their underpinning. Everything from the six goals programme for urgent and emergency care at the one end to homecare policy and care home policy at the other is all designed to make a reality of that in the longer term. It is hard work to integrate a system that is operated very differently and funded very differently, but I hope that some of the ways that we are working over the course of this period will show us ways in which that can be better run in the future.

I thank the Cabinet Secretary.

We will move now to item 5 on our agenda, a statement by the Cabinet Secretary for Education on improving attendance. I call on the Cabinet Secretary, Lynne Neagle.

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. Thank you for the opportunity to talk about one of my key priorities here today—improving attendance. As I have said before, I want all children in Wales to have the opportunity to thrive, supported by an education system that has their best interests at heart. Regular attendance and engagement in education is a priority in achieving this aspiration.

However, as Members will know, attendance rates at schools in Wales are not where we want them to be, and rates of persistent absence are far higher than they should be. Our average attendance rates in schools are improving. They currently stand at around 92 per cent for this academic year, and it is encouraging to see a continued improvement. But these are still far off the pre-pandemic levels, especially for lower income families eligible for free school meals. For children who are eligible for free school meals, attendance is 87 per cent so far for this academic year. In the 2023-24 academic year, 52.9 per cent of pupils eligible for free school meals were persistently absent, up from 30.4 per cent in 2018-19. This year, we are already looking at persistent absence rates for children who are eligible for free school meals standing at 7 per cent, whilst this is just 2 per cent for those not eligible for free school meals. We need to do more to address this.

The reasons children and young people don't or can't attend school are often complex and varied. I have been working with the national attendance taskforce and our partners across the education sector to better understand some of the challenges they face, to help get to the root causes. Through the taskforce, three work streams were convened, focusing on youth engagement, data and research, and peer-to-peer learning. As well as providing useful insights into the challenges faced, the work streams agreed specific actions to take forward to support improvements to attendance. Of particular interest to me was the work of the data work stream, chaired by Professor Ann John. One element of the work progressed has involved linking data from the Welsh Government on daily absences with health and social services data. This will provide greater insight into the impact mental ill health, neurodivergence and deprivation are having on attendance.

I have also been encouraged by the work of the peer-to-peer work stream, chaired by Tegwen Ellis of the National Academy for Educational Leadership, and the conferences held to better understand some of the challenges practitioners face with absences from schools, and the support they've provided in sharing good practice across schools. I will also outline some of the actions being taken forward from discussions through the youth engagement work stream later in my statement. Whilst the main taskforce will hold its final meeting this month, a final progress report will collate the actions to take forward in partnership through smaller groups with clear objectives and expected outcomes, building on the work progressed through the taskforce. 

I know for some children and young people, poverty is a real issue. We hear of struggles in buying or washing school uniform, owning suitable shoes, or having a warm coat through winter, and that is preventing them from attending school. I also know that transport can be a huge barrier for some, especially for those from rural communities, the Valleys, or where transport is just too expensive. Not everyone has a car, and public transport systems do not always support simple or short trips to school.

We have seen an increase in the number of children who have mental health challenges, behavioural issues, health challenges, and those who struggle with emotionally based school avoidance. These issues have a significant impact on attendance, with children and young people now presenting with issues that are more complex and that require a partnership approach.

We also know that attitudes towards learning since the pandemic have changed. Some families view regular attendance differently since the pandemic, and others want more flexible approaches that allow remote attendance or an ability to learn from home. I am also acutely aware of the impact that poor behaviour is having. I recently discussed behaviour in schools with headteachers and trade unions to better understand the scale of the issue and what action is needed to tackle poor behaviour. There is no quick fix, and there are clear variations across Wales about what is and isn’t working in this space.

I want to be clear that I am under no illusion about the scale of the issue at hand. Tackling attendance is not an easy task; there is no one-size-fits-all approach, and it will take time. We are talking about complex issues, complex needs and longer-term cultural change. But I have been extremely encouraged to see how educational providers and the wider networks who support the education of our disengaged learners are tackling attendance concerns and working with learners to understand the issues. I want our attendance rates to improve. As a starting point, I want to get rates back to where they were before the pandemic. But I don’t want to stop there, and I want them to continue to improve. Key to this is creating a supportive, welcoming environment, which is the ambition of our community-focused schools approach. Within a community-focused school, families are made to feel welcomed, listened to and valued. Their needs, and those of their children, are understood and catered for.

This model would not be a success without the work of the family engagement officers. They play a vital role within schools. They establish and foster good relationships with families of children and young people at the school; encourage and support parental involvement in the school and engagement in children’s learning; and signpost to relevant support and services. This is increasingly important in supporting attendance and supporting learners struggling with high levels of absence. This is why today I am announcing a total of £8.8 million across this year and next year towards improving engagement and attendance. I will provide an additional £1.5 million for family engagement officers this financial year to provide greater capacity to continue the work to specifically tackle poor attendance at school. I will build on this valuable support further with additional funding in the next financial year to ensure we can retain these officers. I will also provide funding in the next financial year to enhance community focused schools and to support collaboration and professional learning across Wales.

We know that positive engagement with school is essential in fostering belonging and attendance. This engagement is often built through positive and enriching experiences outside of the classroom. As such, I will provide £300,000 for the remainder of this year, enhanced with further funding next year across the 22 local authorities in Wales to support provision of additional sporting, cultural and creative activities in our schools. I will also be providing some additional funding for our school holiday enrichment programme, also known as food and fun. Further details of this will be provided when the 2025-26 budget is published next Tuesday. Alongside this, I am keen to explore the role that youth workers play in building long-lasting relationships with learners to help them overcome the many barriers they may be facing. I want to test the impact of youth workers engaging with learners in school hours, to determine the positive impact that can have on learner engagement and attendance.

I am sometimes asked about a communications campaign to highlight the importance of school attendance. We are developing targeted communications with the right messages for the right audience to ensure we have maximum impact. I want to communicate with those struggling with attendance in a way they relate to and that shows we are listening. A piece of research has been commissioned to engage directly with children in schools to determine what messages should be delivered to encourage them to re-engage with their education.

I would like to close by thanking the dedicated staff working to support all our learners, and particularly those supporting children and young people who struggle to engage with education. Many of them go the extra mile to make sure these learners do not miss out, and they should be celebrated for their dedication. I am committed to supporting the continuation of this valuable work and I'm doing all I can to ensure all learners have the opportunity to engage in education and achieve the outcomes they so rightly deserve. Diolch.

Can I thank you, Cabinet Secretary, for the statement today? I'm pleased to see a statement being made by the Welsh Government on improving attendance, because I think it's absolutely crucial. You and I have had many, many debates, and I'm sure we will continue to have many more exchanges, on the ways in which we can improve our schools and the education system that exists within those schools, but, obviously, if young people are not turning up to school in the first place, that is all for naught. So, I think it's very important that action is taken by the Welsh Government to tackle this issue.

You mentioned, again, which I do welcome, that attendance is increasing in Wales, up to 92 per cent. Obviously, the equivalent figure, however, for England is 94 per cent, so we do need to ask ourselves—I think it's above 94 per cent, actually. So, we do need to ask ourselves why that disparity exists and what we're going to do to close that gap. For as much as there are specific actions in this statement that I will welcome, and others I will question and come on to, it did lack targets throughout, it did lack measurables. I think that that was clearly quite sorely lacking in your statement.

Look, targets are a good thing; I think they help galvanise the whole system around wanting to achieve those targets. If you look at the Cymraeg 2050 target, just one off the top of my head, for example, you see there now a whole system is galvanised around trying to achieve that target. Unless we've got a target that we want to reach in terms of attendance, whether it is reaching pre-pandemic levels, being at the same level as England or any other target you think is appropriate—I really think that this statement could have done with that target included within it.

Now, there are also complexities, as you acknowledged and I will acknowledge as well, as to why each story of persistent absence will be very different. We're clearly dealing with the long-term impact of the pandemic, and, obviously, the figures in Wales versus England—again, to use the comparison, we were higher here before the pandemic as well. So, there are clearly longer term structural issues that are not just related to the impact of the pandemic, although, clearly, they have exacerbated what was previously a problem as well.

I know that the Welsh Government employed Parentkind—back in October, I think, they released a report about understanding why pupils are absent. And they found six main findings: parents not feeling listened to; delays in assessments and support; the school environment; provision for learners; issues with the wider system; and lack of support for families. Now, I just wanted to take, if you like, the first and last one together, which is parents not feeling listened to and a lack of support for families, and I think there's quite an interesting point that I just wanted to raise with you and have you respond to, if that's okay, Cabinet Secretary. Going back to the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development report, obviously, we all, quite rightly, debated the headline figures, which were those Programme for International Student Assessment results in specific subjects. But one underrated thing were the figures around parental engagement in school governance. Now, the OECD average for that is 17 per cent, whereas in Wales it's just 3 per cent. So, there is a clear issue with the propensity—and this is probably cultural as much as anything—of parents to want to get involved in the governance of schools and play an active role in the formation and the activities of the school, and, therefore, probably feeling a little bit disenfranchised, then, when schools make decisions that they may or may not agree with. I wonder what more we can do to encourage more people not only to stand to be school governors, for example, but also just to get involved more in the governance and the day-to-day of local schools, as seems to happen elsewhere in the world, according to the OECD report. 

The other one I mentioned there was delays to assessments and support, and you've previously acknowledged the impact that the changes to additional learning needs is having. They haven't gone as you would have expected. I think you've acknowledged long, long waits, young people not getting the support they need, and, obviously, then, that will have an impact on a young person's propensity to want to come to school in the first place.

The final thing I just wanted to acknowledge very, very quickly, was that you mentioned two actions, if you like, that you would take. One was a communications campaign—or you were considering doing a communications campaign—can we have more detail about how that would work and when you expect that to be launched, because that seems like something that should happen in quite a timely manner, but based on the remarks you made, it didn't seem like it was very far down the track?

Finally, a move towards more funding and more emphasis on sporting, cultural and creative activities—that's something I support entirely. I do wonder, though, whether you would look again at the Bill that Sam Rowlands brought to this Senedd not so long ago, regarding outdoor education, and the impact and effect that outdoor education can have on young people and their engagement with school.

And very finally, on VCSEs to do with this as well—I think they are really important. I've raised with you before that these more technical vocational qualifications are really, really welcome, but if these are going to be classroom-based vocational qualifications and not ones where people are getting involved, the type of learner that is not inclined to attend school at the moment is only going to be less inclined when they find that a course that they thought was vocational is far more classroom-based than they initially envisioned. Diolch yn fawr.

Thank you very much, Tom, and thank you for your welcome of the statement. I completely agree with you, obviously, on getting children into school—they're not getting to first base unless they're there, are they? So, it's absolutely key to our plans to improve attainment. As you've highlighted, there has been a slight improvement. We are behind England in terms of attendance rates, but all parts of the UK are struggling with attendance, and that was something I had the opportunity to discuss with ministerial colleagues in the inter-ministerial group recently in Belfast. And we are particularly worried about the persistent absence rates for children and young people on free school meals. I don't know if there's been any research done on why our figures are challenging, but I suspect it's probably linked to poverty as well, and the complexity that we're seeing within families.

Thank you for highlighting the work that Parentkind did. I think exercises like that are really important to make sure that we do, in fact, listen to families. I'm concerned that families feel that they aren't being listened to and that they feel there is a lack of support, but that's why we've got a model in Wales that is based, now, around community-focused schools. We've spent millions of pounds investing in community-focused schools and the family engagement officers are a key part of that offer. And that's what they do, really; they engage with families, including families with really complex needs. I was at Adamsdown Primary School yesterday, meeting with their FEO, and I'm meeting with the whole new network of FEOs later this week, and that is what they're doing: they're going out, they're building relationships with parents on their terms. In Adamsdown, they were encouraging the families to come in and do courses, things that would help with the children or things that they would just enjoy to get involved in the life of the school and to break down that stigma. So, I think community-focused schools are key, really, to the issues that you've raised, in particular if we are going to encourage more people to get involved in things like being school governors, because that involves confidence, doesn't it, and feeling that you're able to do that.

As you've said, I've been very open about the challenges that we're facing in implementing ALN, and we've got a plan of action to deal with that. There are particular issues where education interfaces with health. As you know, we've established a multi-agency collaborative group that is working on those issues around making sure that young people get more quick access to the help and support they need from the health service. We're developing new performance indicators. We're clarifying the legal position in terms of the Act. In particular, part of the health Minister's announcement on waiting lists recently involved £3 million for waiting lists for young people who are waiting for neurodevelopmental assessments, and there has been a design event, working with the NHS executive, to look at how we can do things differently in relation to ND assessments. But it is really important as well to recognise that children don't need a diagnosis of autism or another condition in order to get the support that they need in school.

In terms of the communication campaign, one of the things that I learnt when I was in my previous portfolio in health is that when you have a communications campaign, it has to be evidence based and you have to know that you are going to hit the mark with it. That's why we're doing this piece of work around working with young people to find out what the issues are that they feel would encourage them to come back into school, because it isn't just about learning, is it? We know that attendance is crucial for children's mental health and for them to have a sense of belonging and connectedness. So, we are doing that work with children and young people first. There was some suggestion that I should be involved in encouraging parents to send their kids to school more regularly. Well, you know, there's a consideration there of whether that would help—the Government lecturing people when they're having really challenging issues to deal with.

Your points about VCSEs are important. I think our new curriculum, because it is purpose-led and relevant, but also geared towards the needs of individual children, has a key role to play in tackling disengagement. I am really keen on those vocational opportunities, and I do think we have to be flexible. Schools are using things like reduced timetables and other things. We want to hold on to those children in the school system.

In terms of vocational opportunities, one of the things that I've been really, really impressed by seeing is junior apprenticeships, which I went to see in Cardiff and Vale College. I met with some young people there, and they'd had a challenging time in education, but they were absolutely thriving in that environment. That's what we have to do: rather than fitting children into the space that we create, we've got to make sure that the system wraps around them to meet their needs, because it's crucial that we hold on to young people and that we don't let them become not in education, employment or training. Thank you.

I thank the Cabinet Secretary for the statement. Plaid Cymru has been supportive for some time of empowering schools to support the needs of communities in order to improve attendance rates and standards. I hope that these plans for appointing family engagement officers will deliver this, if they can be implemented effectively.

Now, the statistics are clear: the levels of attendance haven't reached pre-pandemic levels; indeed, they've fallen over 4 per cent since 2019. Inequality also continues among the pupils who receive free school meals, with their attendance rates more than 5 per cent lower than the national average.

Looking now at the statistics for suspensions from school, all kinds of suspensions had increased since the previous year, and had reached the highest rate for more than 10 years. Now, in that context, the rate of permanent suspension of pupils with special educational needs and additional learning needs was 2.4 for every 1,000 pupils, compared with 0.5 for every 1,000 pupils without this support. So, does the Cabinet Secretary share my concern that the attendance rates may have improved slightly across Wales because pupils with additional learning needs are being excluded permanently from school?

Now, one of the biggest challenges to improving attendance in school is, of course, as was noted in the statement, the provision of school transport. Learners can't attend school if they can't get to school, and both Estyn and the children's commissioner have raised concerns about cuts to school transport provision. Unfortunately, it seems, due to incoherent guidance and a lack of funding, Welsh Government are actually making it harder for Welsh learners to get to school, not easier. I'm sure none of us here would be willing to walk all the way to work, perhaps in the wind and rain, carrying our laptop and files, and then walk all the way back home in the dark after a long day. So, that the begs the question: why does the Welsh Government expect Welsh learners to have to do exactly the same just to get to and from school?

The education Secretary said previously this term that she will attend a summit on learner transport hosted by the transport Secretary, and that he is looking to update the operational guidance on the learner travel Measure. Now, I know we're fast approaching Christmas, but what Welsh learners need at this time is leadership from the education Secretary and not Welsh Government Ministers playing pass the parcel on this topic. So, how can we have confidence that the taskforce actions will work effectively if they haven't taken into account any changes that could come from the proposed summit or updated guidance? 

So, to conclude, many different reports have presented a broad range of recommendations for schools, local authorities and the Welsh Government over recent years on how to improve attendance, such as the Estyn thematic report that was published earlier this year, as well as an independent report for Government on improving attendance following the pandemic. So, just a few questions to conclude: will all the previous recommendations made have been implemented before the publication of the taskforce's final report? And finally, what is the timetable for implementing them and any new recommendations or recommended steps, because, without a measurable timetable, how can we guarantee that any new plan will generate positive change for learners across Wales, rather than being one of the numerous other plans in Cathays Park that are gathering dust on a shelf? Thank you.

Thank you very much, Cefin, for those comments. I agree with you that boosting attendance is about empowering families and helping them to break down the barriers that are stopping children and young people attending school, and, absolutely, inequality is a key part of that. I am concerned about the exclusion figures for children with ALN. Some of those are, obviously, fixed-term exclusions, but they are concerning, and I think what they show is a system that is under pressure. I've acknowledged that we've got more work to do, which we are underpinning with lots and lots of funding, and also a legal review of the code and ALN Act, alongside the delivery work that we're doing. So, we've definitely got more work to do there, because I am a great believer that behaviour is communication in children and young people, and we need to tackle what the root cause of that is.

I know that you are very worried about school transport, because you've raised it before. It is certainly not a question of playing pass the parcel. I work closely with the Cabinet Secretary for transport on this issue. You're aware that we did undertake the review of the learner travel Measure. That decided not to change the mileage frameworks et cetera, and I know that there's some concern about that, but we will be issuing new guidance, which we'll also be working on with children and young people and local authorities to help that situation. It is, of course, not just about legislation; it's also about the fact that, in many areas, having the buses, having the drivers, et cetera, is a real challenge, and that's why the work that Ken Skates is leading on bus franchising and the work around the bus Bill are really important. And I hope that, if we can bring those issues together, we can have a coherent system that supports schools as well as people wanting to use public transport.

We are still planning to have the summit. I met recently with all the education leads in local government and they were really concerned about transport as well, and they had lots of innovative ideas, because it's also costing lots and lots of money, which is putting pressure on budgets. So, I'm really keen for local government to be involved in those discussions as well.

Although the taskforce in its current form is concluding, as I've made clear, we are still going to work with partners on the actions around attendance going forward, but in a more focused way, likely with smaller groups of those. So, a little while ago I had a deep-dive session with Public Health Wales, with Estyn and with Professor Ann John, who is an expert in the area of attendance and the mental health impacts and has a really good understanding of the data, and that was really helpful as well. We're also planning the work with young people, but also a focused piece of work around Gypsy, Traveller children as well, where we know there are particular issues around attendance. I don't think it's about collecting lots and lots of recommendations, I think it's about us all working together now to break down those barriers.

This is a very significant announcement of funding that we've made today. What's been clear to me in the work that I've done since coming into post is that there is no silver bullet in this space, it is a complex area and that's why the family engagement officers are so important, because they can do that complex work with families, whether it's poverty, parental ill health, transport issues. They can work with the families to do that granular work to make sure that the children come back to school, and I think that's really important. I hope that we will see some positive progress. I'm meeting with the network. There's a network now with an FEO attending from each local authority. I'm meeting with them this week to hear from them directly, and I really believe that, working together, we can make a difference in this space through our community-focused schools model.

Thank you for your statement today, Cabinet Secretary, including your emphasis on community-focused schools, working with families, extracurricular activity and youth workers. Fourteen to 19-year-olds are a significant part of the equation, I think, Cabinet Secretary, in terms of those 14-year-olds that want to pursue a vocational route and are not able to have that choice that they want to exercise at school, and then often not able to go to the further education college that could cater for those choices. Then sometimes they disengage from school, they may be absent or even, if they go, not interested, and then sometimes at 16 they turn up at the college, they want to do the vocational course they wanted to do at 14, but then haven't got the required standards in terms of numeracy and literacy. So, it's a real issue. I welcome what you said about the junior apprenticeships, which our joint cross-party group meeting—the CPGs on apprenticeships and further education and skills—heard about just last week in terms of Cardiff and Vale College. One of their asks, Cabinet Secretary, was for a dedicated funding stream to enable that to happen and enable it to be rolled out right across Wales, so I wonder if you could say something today in terms of how we can facilitate those choices and deal with that aspect of absenteeism from our schools.

Thank you very much, John, and I know that you've been a long-standing champion of community-focused schools, and I hope that you're seeing some of that work come to fruition now with the investment and the emphasis that we're placing on the roll-out. I know that you're also a big supporter of youth work as well, and I think youth workers have an enormous untapped potential. I'm a massive fan of youth workers, and there's work that they've been doing in Blaenau Gwent, working with youth workers in school to tackle attendance problems, that I'm really keen to build on.

You raise important points about those pathways for young people. For me, it's all about holding on to young people and making sure we can keep them in the system. We know that one of the worst things for young people's mental health is becoming not in education, employment or training. There's even, in fact, a higher suicide risk with becoming NEET, so it's vital that we hold on to those young people and that we make sure that the opportunities they get in school are engaging and ones that they want to participate in.

I'm really keen to facilitate those opportunities for vocational training. I really like the junior apprenticeship scheme; I was blown away by it when I saw it in Cardiff and Vale College, because I know that, some of those learners, they'd had really difficult experiences in education and there they were, really enthusiastically participating, and they made the best sourdough bread that I'd tasted in a long time.

As you know, it's the budget next week. You wouldn't expect me to pre-empt that, but I'm aware that we have got a bit of a postcode lottery in terms of junior apprenticeships and I want junior apprenticeships to be available across Wales, so that all young people can benefit from those opportunities.

The myriad of failings in the Welsh state education system have been snowballing for 25 years, with the uptick in absenteeism in recent years joining the other Welsh Government achievements on education—illiteracy, innumeracy, record low PISA results, and falling pupil mental health and well-being. And whilst the additional funding to tackle the problem of absenteeism is welcome, many, including myself, have little faith that this will translate into results, given the Welsh Government's poor record on education. 

Whilst there are varied and very complex factors involved, a lot of parents have simply grown accustomed to their child not attending school following the pandemic, and we should send a clear message that this is unacceptable. So, I'd like to ask the Cabinet Secretary how the Welsh Government will sanction parents of pupils who are regularly absent from school, and what further deterrents are being implemented. I'd like to also know how the Welsh Government is tracking the success of the family engagement officers. [Interruption.] I can't see really what Lee Waters is heckling about, as it's a true—[Interruption.] It's a very true observation. 

Address the Cabinet Secretary, never mind the backbenchers.

Thank you very much.

Well, thank you, Gareth, I think, for that contribution, negative though it was. I would have hoped that you would have seen this opportunity of a very significant injection of funding as something positive for the system. And similarly, I've made announcements recently about additional support for literacy and numeracy, raising standards, and I think we've got a really good track record of supporting mental health and well-being in schools. It's certainly one—you know, we need to do more work on it, but it's a good record of work that we've done there. 

In terms of parental attitudes, there is a challenge with parental attitudes, especially since the pandemic. Lots of people are used to working from home, so we have found there can be more of a tendency sometimes not to push on the attendance issues. I think the way that you tackle those issues is by working with those families constructively. Schools have got the option of using fines. It's best, I think, if they are used as a last resort. Those fines would be a deterrent for some families but not for all; when it comes to things like the cost of holidays, they pale into insignificance—the cost of the fine pales into insignificance in comparison with the cost of holidays.

And I think the best way to tackle what is a complex issue is not to think that there is a really simplistic solution to it, and that's why family engagement officers are so key. So, yesterday, in Adamsdown Primary School, the family engagement officer told me how she goes to the houses to support the families, how they help if they haven't got uniforms; they can provide clean uniforms; they're running courses to encourage the families into school. But some families do get fined, and I think we do have to trust the people who are in our schools doing that job to know what the best techniques are. And the family engagement officers are a really key part of that arsenal. This is a huge investment in funding in what is still a relatively new role. As I said, in response to Cefin Campbell, I'm meeting with the network of family engagement officers this week, and there will be an opportunity there to discuss how we monitor progress.

I agree with the Cabinet Secretary there's no simple answer here: there's no silver bullet; a number of things are going to have to come together in order for us to resolve this issue.

Having said that, I'm going to focus on one particular thing, and I'd just add my voice to John Griffiths's, in his support for junior apprenticeships. Both our cross-party groups held a really productive conversation around the benefits of junior apprenticeships. Just last week, we heard about the story of Eddie, a learner in Cardiff and Vale College, who has come on leaps and bounds and now he's potentially going to university as a result of these junior apprenticeships. So, I'll ask a similar question to what John has asked already, and given that I understand the situation with the budget, I'll ask it in a slightly different way: how do you see the structures of Government facilitating the proliferation of junior apprenticeships? There are colleges out there that are really keen to get going, but the funding is a problem, so how do you see the structures of Government working with those colleges to ensure that junior apprenticeships are available across Wales, as you've already stated is your ambition?

Thanks, Luke, and thank you for your acknowledgement that there is no silver bullet in this space and it is really complex, and thank you for what you've said about the junior apprenticeships. I genuinely think they're a life-changing intervention for young people. We have got the budget next week, but I am committed to making sure that we've got a consistent offer across Wales. I know that they're available in south Wales, there are parts of Wales where they're not available, and I think Government has a role to play in making sure that young people have got that opportunity wherever they live in Wales. We'll have to wait for the budget other than that, but I think it's really important that there's not a postcode lottery in terms of provision for those vocational opportunities for learners who otherwise may well become NEET, with everything that that entails.

And finally, Julie Morgan.

Diolch, and thank you, Cabinet Secretary, for bringing this very important statement here today, and it's absolutely great to see the Welsh Government investing £8.8 million to improve attendance and engagement, and to hear of the success of the family engagement officers.

I was very pleased to be asked by the Cabinet Secretary, earlier this year, to undertake a piece of work on the school holiday enrichment programme, the food and fun programme, which we run here in Wales over the school summer holidays. I was so impressed by what I saw in that scheme, the dedication and enthusiasm of the people who were running it, the organisation by the Welsh Local Government Association, and I think it was an absolutely fantastic scheme. In all the schools I visited, it was clear how much fun the children were having while learning about healthy foods and lifestyles.

So, at the beginning of the autumn term, a case study was undertaken, where headteachers were asked to compare September 2024 attendances with September 2023, for the same sample group of children. The information collected did show that going to food and fun over the summer holidays positively impacts on improved attendance for children, when they return to school in September. So, I thought this was a very positive sign, because the long school summer holidays are very difficult for parents, we know, to cope financially, and children lose track of their learning. So, I was very pleased to hear that some money would be going to food and fun. Would the Cabinet Secretary agree that expanding the food and fun programme across Wales would be a valuable way to improve attendance in our schools?

Thank you very much. And can I place on record my gratitude to Julie Morgan for the work that she's done on the review of SHEP? I know how committed you are to the life chances of our children and young people, and I've been really grateful to you. I know that you've been out and about looking at the SHEP schemes, and have done a really important piece of work for us. And, as you say, it's also about holding on to children and young people, isn't it, through the summer. They've had the opportunity to have healthy food, but they're also engaged and connected with their peers.

We've got the budget next week, and it will be a question of waiting until we've heard the budget announcement, but as I said in my statement, I am really keen to build on the work that you've done and the evidence that you've gathered, and what we know is working on the ground. We're also, as part of this work, looking at enrichment activities as part of the school day as well. What we want is for children to want to come into school, and it's important that we all work together to do that. But thank you again for everything that you've done on the review—much appreciated.

I thank the Cabinet Secretary.

Item 6 this afternoon is a statement by the Cabinet Secretary for Housing and Local Government: town centre position statement. I call on the Cabinet Secretary to make the statement. Jayne Bryant. 

Diolch, Deputy Llywydd. Town and city centres play a crucial role in the social, economic and cultural fabric of our communities. Places and buildings matter. They are what give our towns and cities their unique identity, what gives many of us that feeling of connection and belonging, of home. This is why the health and vibrancy of our town centres remains a key priority for this Government.

Launched in May last year, the 'Town centres: position statement' sets out the challenges faced by town centres and the actions we are taking to reinvigorate them. It is predicated on Welsh Government's 'town centre first' principle that town centres should be the first consideration for all decisions on the location of workplaces and services. The position statement spans a number of policy areas, including regeneration, housing, broader infrastructure investment, economy, planning, environment and transport. Success is therefore dependent on cross-Government buy-in and wide-ranging stakeholder action.

To support this, we have established an oversight board, with a membership that includes a range of internal and external stakeholders and interests. The role of the board will be to drive forward the actions in the plan and make connections with wider cross-cutting initiatives that deliver wider sustainable economic, social and environmental benefits for Wales. I was delighted to attend the first meeting of the board in October. There, I heard directly about how members can bring their skills and experiences to bear to make progress on some of the issues that our towns and surrounding areas face, and how they can support us to deliver positive outcomes for the people of Wales.

We launched the position statement in Neath town centre, a location that epitomises a 'town centre first' approach. Supported by Transforming Towns funding, a leisure centre, library and retail units were developed. These are precisely the sorts of facilities, alongside the public service providers, that draw people into town centres, increasing footfall, strengthening our communities, and bringing our town centres to life.

The position statement describes what can be done at a national level to set the foundations for change and enable the local delivery of key public services in town centres. We continue to talk to local authorities and other public service providers about their estate rationalisation and decarbonisation plans, to maximise opportunities for the co-location of public services in our town centres. Beyond economic benefits, town regeneration has profound social impacts. It enhances the quality of life of residents and helps foster a sense of community pride and belonging. That's why everything we do must have community at its heart. To do this, we must listen and work together to ensure we meet the genuine needs and priorities of the community.

The focus on placemaking in the position statement is recognition of this. Placemaking involves understanding a place and its people, and ensuring that development, investment and change contribute positively to enhancing that town, as well as the experience of the residents living there. That is why placemaking plans are a requirement of our Transforming Towns funding. Led locally, they should start with communities, building on their needs, wants and aspirations.

On my recent visit to Caerphilly, I saw a placemaking approach in action. This includes Ffos Caerffili, a new market provision that opened earlier this year; Pentrebane Street, a mixed use development; and the hotel, leisure and residential quarter, which has the potential to provide a new hotel and residential, retail and office facilities. The approach to community engagement, with a newly formed residents committee, was hugely encouraging, delivering positive outcomes for the community-led cultural centre proposal. The Caerphilly Vision 2035 is a long-term plan, but already the interventions in the town are creating the confidence for the private sector and local businesses to invest, seen with each new and emerging proposal.

The Transforming Towns programme has supported the development of 53 placemaking plans, with a further 10 in the pipeline for potential support this financial year. Culture, arts and the wider creative industries are immensely important to us here in Wales, and I'm eager to ensure that we leverage the power of cultural and community assets in unlocking town centre regeneration. An example of this is the arts, cultural and community hub, located in the former St Mary's Church in Bangor. The development, which benefited from £1.2 million of Transforming Towns funding, has turned an empty building into a creative hub for young people and artists to create, rehearse and perform.

Whilst there is much to celebrate, I do not underestimate the challenges associated with unlocking our towns' potential. Bringing empty properties back into use is one such challenge. Welsh Government has several programmes supporting local authorities to redevelop empty properties and bring them back into use. This includes the empty property enforcement fund, available to local authorities who wish to undertake enforcement action on prominent town centre properties. Last year, we commissioned a review of this fund to consider whether it is effective in tackling empty properties. The recommendations will be instrumental in shaping the future focus of our support to local authorities in reducing the number of empty properties in Wales. Coupled with this is the forthcoming evaluation of the wider Transforming Towns programme, which will consider what's been working well, challenges to implementation, and barriers that could be removed or reduced in the future. The findings of this evaluation will help shape our future support for town centre regeneration and ongoing delivery against the 'Town centres: position statement'.

In the meantime, I look forward to visiting more towns and communities across Wales to see first-hand the significant progress already being made in transforming our towns, making them great places to live, work, visit and stay. Diolch yn fawr.

Can I thank you, Cabinet Secretary, for this statement? I genuinely mean that, because our town centres are so fundamentally important. They play, as you pointed out, an incredibly vital role in our communities, providing all of our small and medium-sized enterprises with a place to do business, and also a place for people to meet and socialise, and we have to recognise that. And I want to take this time also to note that this Saturday, as we all know, is Small Business Saturday, and take this opportunity to welcome the vital role that SMEs play in our communities across Wales, and I'm sure we all here concur with this.

Successful and vibrant towns are vital to our Welsh economy, but also to the environmental, social and cultural well-being of Wales. They create a sense of belonging and identity, and they're extremely valued by their communities, rightly. However, many of our town centres are in decline, as we know. Some of this will be down to the changing way people now shop. But things like business rates have to be acknowledged. Being as high as they are also bring a lot of pressure to local businesses, especially in constituencies with high values, such as Monmouth, making it difficult for those businesses to thrive, and this will indeed be exacerbated by the new national insurance increases. We know that will, no doubt, supress growth and job opportunities.

So, Cabinet Secretary, clearly, things have to change, and you pointed out some of that change today, if we really do value our towns, and I do welcome the oversight board and what it might be doing. Even though you've explained it quite thoroughly, I have a couple of questions. How do you see the board being able to help underpin the futures of our high streets and the businesses that are within them? And how can that board incentivise businesses to continue on the high street and make them feel valued once again? Will the oversight board consider new support packages, such as trying to influence the debate around non-domestic rates relief, or other types of incentivisation, so that they don't have to trade at a disadvantage, certainly along the borders of Wales?

Moving on, Cabinet Secretary, one thing that we do need to improve is our transport infrastructure going into our towns, particularly in the rural parts of Wales. I agree with the Government's principle of addressing climate change. However, that cannot be done simply by punishing car users. So, would the placemaking agenda consider these things as well? There have to be alternative methods of transport for people to get into our town centres, and that requires at least regular and reliable public transport infrastructure—something that we know is lacking. Cabinet Secretary, what assessment has the Welsh Government made of the impact of rural bus routes ceasing on town centres in Wales?

And finally, Cabinet Secretary, the public sector employs almost 330,000 people in Wales—over 10 per cent of the population. Many of the sector have traditionally played an incredibly important role in keeping our high streets vibrant and open, with many employees spending regularly on our high streets. With this in mind, has any assessment been made by the Welsh Government of the effect of the increased trend of working from home on our high streets going forward? Cabinet Secretary, I wish the board well going forward. I just think the future of our town centres is so important, and we have to think of them differently as they move away from retail hubs more to destinations. We've got to do as much as we can to maintain a vibrant and healthy town-centre offer across Wales.

Diolch yn fawr, Peter. Thank you for that. I think you're absolutely right in talking about our vision for town centres. It's something we all feel very strongly about, as I said in the statement. Our town centres bring about pride, bring about a real value about the place that we live in, and where communities can come and gather.

I would also like to join you in reminding everybody about Small Business Saturday. That, I know, is something that we all support here in this Chamber when we're all going out to see the small businesses that are in our local communities, which is really important, but I'm sure there are many of us who use those local businesses throughout that time. We know that this time of year, with Christmas approaching, is when we do focus on that. But we know that there are those independent businesses in particular who we have supported for many years, who have been the mainstay of our town centres, and I'd like to agree with all the points you said about how important Small Business Saturday is.

Absolutely, the cultural side of our town centres is really important as well. As I mentioned, I'm really interested in how we can use those cultural entities within our communities in the town centres to be a real fulcrum, because they are so important. I've seen that in places across Wales. You described Neath; I had the fortune to go and see Neath earlier this year as well, and to see how important that has been to that place.

In terms of the town centre oversight board and the position statement, we know that over the last year there has been real progress made, but there are still some challenges. So, we've established that oversight board to provide that robust guidance and governance arrangements, focusing on delivering against those identified key actions in the position statement. I think it's really important we keep that real close focus on what we want to achieve within that. The board met for the first time in October, and it's due to meet again in January.

There's a huge amount of expertise on that board, and people with very good ideas and experience. I think it's important we use them in that to make sure that we are keeping to the points that we need to deliver on, and to challenge. I'm really looking forward to the work of the board. I was able to meet them at their meeting and I think that it's something that we need to encourage. I think they will be doing us a real service in supporting our town centres.

I thank the Cabinet Secretary for this afternoon's statement and the news about the establishment of the board. Tackling the challenges facing our high streets is an urgent issue. Our high streets are a visible reminder of the economic hardship that is faced by people across Wales, and the growth of online shopping and locating supermarkets at the outskirts of our towns has created a heartbreaking situation in some areas.

Nowhere is that shown more clearly than the high street in Bangor in my constituency. As Wales's longest high street, it is unfortunately an example of great decline, with businesses closing their doors and properties being left vacant. But there are clear solutions that the Welsh Government could support to breathe new life into our high streets in a new, exciting context. You mentioned the Frân Wen creative hub in the old church in Bangor, and there are other plans afoot in the city too, including turning the old Debenhams into a health and well-being hub. And by the way, it would be good to get some good news on this from the Cabinet Secretary for health before Christmas.

Beyond the loss of businesses, we've also seen crucial services like banks and post offices disappearing, and these losses do exacerbate the economic challenges faced by our communities. According to Audit Wales, there's been a reduction of almost 30 per cent in the number of bank and building society branches.

I'm going to ask you first of all, therefore: where is the Welsh community bank that was a pledge in the Labour manifesto, a community bank that could be providing services to citizens, rather than making profit for shareholders? The situation is just as bad with post offices. In the last decade, the number of post offices in Wales has declined, and recently, the closure of the major post office in Cricieth has pushed postal services in Gwynedd to crisis point. In the meantime, the Caernarfon branch in my own constituency is also under threat. So, my second question is: how will you as Government work with the UK Government to ensure that the Post Office prioritises the needs of rural communities over profit?

I'll turn my attention now to transport, which is crucially important in terms of regenerating our town centres, and the Federation of Small Businesses has highlighted that time and time again. Better transport connections can promote economic development and encourage people to visit our town centres, and it can lead to a reduction in traffic jams to improve visitor experience too, but at the moment, we are still awaiting the bus Bill, and that does provide some hope, but we truly need more funding.

So, my third question is: the Centre for Cities 'Fare outcomes' report suggests five revenue-raising mechanisms to support bus services. Has the Welsh Government assessed those recommendations? At the moment, buses count for three quarters of public transport journeys in Wales, and yet the Welsh Government spending on buses is way behind its spending on trains. We do have to address that imbalance. And also, parking: would it be possible for the Welsh Government to work with local authorities to rethink how parking is managed? Out-of-town shopping centres provide adequate free parking, and that is part of the attraction away from our high streets, so is there any way that we could tax those out-of-town developments in order to help to support cheaper parking for those who do support businesses in our town centres?

And just one brief comment: housing policy needs to accord with town centre regeneration. There is a real opportunity for the Welsh Government, working with local authorities and housing associations, to offer social housing in our own town centres, above shops and vacant properties. We can take the opportunity to rethink and regenerate our high streets, not only as economic centres, but to see them in the future as community hubs and places that are prosperous, where people can live too. Thank you.

Diolch yn fawr, Siân. Thank you for the series of questions there. At the start, you outlined some of the challenges that are faced by our town centres that we know. We've seen the trend towards online shopping happen very quickly, actually, haven't we, particularly through COVID. I think that's just meant things have gone a lot quicker than we perhaps would have expected. You mentioned the challenges particularly in rural areas, but not just constrained to rural areas, around banks and post offices, and I know that there have been many campaigns and challenges on that.

As you'll know, as I mentioned in the statement, some of this is about working across Government. I think that's really important, because it's not something that sits within one portfolio. You've mentioned the Bangor health and well-being hub as something that's come up, which I think is really interesting. The Welsh Government remains supportive of this project as funding requests undergo appropriate due diligence through the relevant grant panels. So, just to say that is an interesting idea, and that's something that has come up around Wales, as well, as we look to really think about how we can move things like health centres into town centres, to increase that footfall and to make them accessible to more and more people.

In the statement, I mentioned Bangor and the church—you'll know that very well. The £4.5 million Nyth creative hub project in Bangor was funded by the Transforming Towns fund and the Arts Council of Wales. That opened in November 2023. That transformed an empty city-centre church into a fantastic arts and community hub, dedicated to young people and artists, which is really exciting. We've also seen within Gwynedd Porthmadog, Pwllheli and Dolgellau placemaking plans, which I think is really important to see. I was fortunate, when I met with Gwynedd Council last week, just to hear about some of the plans in their area in terms of regeneration.

In terms of transport, as I say, that's something that comes under my colleague the Cabinet Secretary for transport, but I know that there are lots of things making sure that town centres are accessible to people. We want people to be able to go into those communities, but we also need to think about how people live. You mentioned housing in one of the questions that you raised, which is really, again, an important point. I've seen this within my own community in Newport, where we've had a very long high street, and some of that has transformed into accommodation. We've seen that has been done really well. I think when we're looking at where people live, I don't know why we spent a long time putting people to live somewhere that wasn't near services. Making sure that people are able to live near the services is really important. So, there are exciting plans there as well, and I'm sure that other local authorities can see some of those examples. Hopefully, the housing part of that, which we are looking to invest in as well, is something that we'll see more and more of in our towns and city centres.

I welcome the statement. We've seen pubs, churches, chapels, banks and shops closing, including anchor stores such as Debenhams and Wilko. Town centres have been changing for several years. Out-of-town developments were a problem, especially when the larger supermarkets provided a widening range of items; now, online purchases are growing, having been turbocharged during COVID. Eighty-nine per cent of people bought at least one item and over half bought clothes online last year. I haven't got the details of who, but my guess is that the average age of those people buying online was substantially lower than the age of people who were buying in shops. Why do town centres have lots of hairdressers and personal services, such as nail bars, cafes and takeaways? They are not competing with online provision from distribution centres. Bringing other services into town centres, such as culture, arts and the wider creative industries, as well as offices, would help town centres. We should be making every Saturday a Small Business Saturday, but we need to get more housing into city centres, and not just social housing, housing for everybody. And we need private development in town and city centres. What is the Welsh Government doing to try and enable private development in those areas?

Diolch, Mike. And thank you for those questions. You're absolutely right around the challenges for town centres and we've seen it in the past. We've talked today about, or I've mentioned, COVID perhaps exacerbating or expediating the trend towards people shopping online. But I know that there were also challenges before COVID. I had an experience of speaking to a business within Newport, my constituency, once, and when I was campaigning for this business to stay open, they told me that more people took things back there than bought there. So, I think the challenge has been there for a while. So, we must realise that it's actually just gone a bit quicker.

Just to say, in Swansea there have been lots of good things happening in Swansea city centre. We've got the Palace Theatre, which is a grade II listed building, a 134-year-old grade II listed building—that's been redeveloped into high-quality office accommodation for SMEs, and that's had over £6.96 million of Transforming Towns grant for that, and the scheme cost £16.6 million. So, it had seen a redevelopment, it's a prominent building, it had deprivation and anti-social behaviour, but it had a lot of potential. So, the building was opened in November and that's got a real high-quality, modern, commercial floor space and incubation space for digital and tech businesses, and a cafe on the ground floor—really, really exciting. So, there are some really, really good things happening in that city, Mike, as you will well know.

In terms of the housing, absolutely, we do need to see more housing, we need to encourage—whether it's social housing, but also, as you say, private developers into our town and city centres, because we do know that it's important that people live close to those services. We know that town and city centres aren't what they used to be. We don't want to see identikit town or city centres either, we need that identity within that, but I think part of the solution is around housing.

Town centres are changing, of course, because people's shopping habits are changing, but I think we do need to do everything we can to support existing shops. WHSmith in Newtown is closing in the new year—it's set to close in the new year, and that was announced in the last few days. It's been there for a century. In fact, Mary Portas referred to it as 'a gem', probably because of its original features. It's really disappointing, of course, because WHSmith and chain shops actually act as anchor businesses that then attract people into the town centres to use small and local independent businesses, of course, as well.

One of the big barriers, I think, to people not going and using town centres is putting barriers up to people travelling into town centres. My own local authority area at the moment, Powys County Council, is charging £2.50 for up to two hours. They've scrapped the one-hour rate. So, if people want to dive into a shop for 10 minutes, they're not going to pay £2.50. So, I think the real issue here is making sure that councils don't just see car parks as revenue-generating arrangements for spending in other areas. So, what I would ask you, Cabinet Secretary, is what you can do to make councils take responsibility for their part in town-centre regeneration, rather than just seeing car parking as cash cows.

Thank you, Russell. I appreciate the comments, and I'm sorry to hear about WHSmith closing. I feel that I should declare an interest as somebody whose first job was working in WHSmith—not that one—but that was my first step on the ladder, WHSmith, so there we go. Absolutely, these iconic buildings that we see within our communities—we don't want to see them empty, they are the lifeblood of our towns, and I think that making sure that we're encouraging and supporting businesses into our town centres is really important. As you said, there are lots of independent businesses that have been doing well over many years, and have been through some really difficult times through that as well, but, as we say, we all want to support them throughout the year, not just on Small Business Saturday.

The point you make around transport—again, it's something that we hear particularly around this time of year as well, around supporting people to go into town centres around Christmas. I know some local authorities support free bus travel into city centres as well during this time. So, I know about the challenges, but it is about encouraging local authorities. We work very closely with local authorities, our officials here work well with local authority officers, trying to support them in what we can all do together to improve our town and city centres, because it's in all of our interests.

It's really interesting, listening to the debate so far, because for me it crystallises, actually, the needs of different towns. We've heard transport mentioned a couple of times already. Now, as somebody who has Bridgend town in the area that I represent, I wouldn't necessarily say that transport is the issue there—you have a mainline train that goes to Swansea, to Cardiff and all of the way to London; you've got the county council actually providing cheap parking, or free parking in many areas; and a bus terminus also in Bridgend town. But we're still seeing the same problems—we're still seeing empty properties and we're still seeing falling footfall.

What we are seeing, and I think you can actually peg the decline of Bridgend town to it, is McArthurGlen—out-of-town shopping centres—and that is what I think we need to start focusing our attention on. That means, actually, looking at how we use the tax system to our benefit and to the benefit of those smaller businesses that are operating in our town centres, so that we look to shift that burden so that out-of-town shopping centres pay more in tax to subsidise our smaller businesses, and we look to charge or tax more the supermarkets, again, that are pulling people out of our town centres. I'd be really interested to understand, because I think the issue here is that a number of portfolios in Government have to come together to come up with a solution to declining town centres, what sort of work is happening across the Government and across portfolios to ensure, actually, that that joined-up thinking is happening and everything comes together so that, then, we see our town centres thriving again.

Diolch, Luke, and you're absolutely right, our town centres are very different. As I said, we don't want to see identikit town centres—they're not now, but we want to make sure that they are developed and supported by the communities that they want to encourage to go there. I think we all want to see different town centres, and they've all got that unique something about them, haven't they? I know that in Bridgend County Borough Council, recently, Maesteg town hall has opened, and I've heard really good things about that—I haven't seen the opening myself, but I look forward to visiting that. That's had an investment of £8.6 million, supported with £3.5 million of our European regional development fund funding, and that sounds like a really good prospect.

In terms of McArthurGlen and other out-of-town shopping centres that we all know of, again, that's been a trend that we've seen over the years. We know that they're being used, but, again, it's about that draw towards our town centres that's so important. I think lots of people would like to go more to our town centres; it's just making sure that we're not letting the out-of-town centres take away from those crucial points.

Some of the aspects that you raise are, actually, relevant to the work that's going on with our oversight board, so some of those actions will come out through that, because they're obviously well aware of the challenges. So, I'd expect some of those developments and some of the outcomes to come from that oversight board, and to just follow their—. I'm sure I'll be updating the Senedd and you regularly on that.

I'm grateful to you, Cabinet Secretary, for your statement this afternoon. I think the future of our town centres is something that all of us on all sides of the Chamber, in Government and on the back benches, have been grappling with for some decades in fact, because we've seen shopping habits change, we've seen technology change, and, as a consequence, we've seen the role of town centres change. Most of the town centres in the Valleys, for example, are far bigger than they need to be today. If you look at most of the towns I represented, when I was growing up, they were flourishing commercial centres, because we didn’t have the means to be able to go elsewhere. Cardiff was a major trip when I was growing up; it was a two-hour journey, and my grandmother would wear a hat. Today, things are very, very different. And I think sometimes we’ve repeated the mistakes from North America and not learnt the lessons from the European mainland. If we travel around the small and medium-sized towns in most parts of western Europe, you will see flourishing town centres, even in areas that are suffering the same economic difficulties that we see in many of our, for example, south Wales Valleys, but not limited to Valleys communities. What I would say to you, Cabinet Secretary, is let’s not simply look across the Atlantic at failure, but let’s look across to the European mainland at success, and let’s be looking at how we can learn lessons of other places that have succeeded. Because I worry sometimes that we’ve rushed to this American version of capitalism—

You need to conclude, Alun.

—without understanding the human impact of it on the people we represent.

Thank you very much, Alun. I agree with you on so much of that, and I think it’s important that we all recognise—. Today we’ve heard so many Members contribute in this Chamber, because we all care very much about our town centres and city centres. As I said, it’s about those identities that we have. We don’t want to see the identikit—I mean that within Wales, but I mean that as well—. We don’t all want to go to the same place; it’s not what I think the people of Wales would want to see. I’m absolutely keen that we look at examples from other places, and, like you say, many places in Europe, they are thriving, and that’s what we want to see in Wales as well. So, it’s important that, in the communities that those town centres are serving, those community voices are really at the heart of what we want to see, and that we listen to those voices, and we try to develop our plans accordingly. So, that’s why we have these placemaking plans as well, because I think those voices of the community are so crucial.

But, absolutely, I’m really keen and committed to looking at any examples of good practice across the world, and I think that we really need to do as much as we can, because our communities care about the places. And I think it’s about how you feel about where you live and where you belong, because if you know that those are thriving, that is really, really good for how people feel, as well as economically.

Thank you very much for your statement this afternoon, Cabinet Secretary. I met with Prestatyn business forum, who recently held a demonstration over business rates by covering up their shop fronts, as they have made clear that they simply cannot survive with the level of taxation that they receive. Business insolvency is also rising, and even without looking at the figures, people are aware of this, and they raise it with me regularly. They notice high streets and their communities changing, and, sadly, not for the better. Family businesses are shutting down at a frightening rate, and we can see more vacant shops on our high street. As I’ve mentioned before, the only businesses that appear to be flourishing are specific types of enterprises, such as cash-only barber shops, nail bars, gelato, sweet shops, et cetera, which are now ten a penny in most town centres.

The statistics also support the incredible rise of these businesses, and since my initial comments on the subject, it has received a large degree of attention, as the public are increasingly concerned at the changes taking place on their high streets. But the biggest impact the Welsh Government could have in restoring our high streets is for the Government to get off the back of struggling businesses by reinstating business rates relief back to 75 per cent. So, will the Cabinet Secretary re-examine the effect of business rates relief change on town centres across Wales and provide an analysis on the impact of the cuts, with a view to reversing them in the future? Thank you.

Thank you, Gareth. Obviously, as I said, a lot of this Transforming Towns and lots of the elements of the statement that I've given today—. Actually, part of that sits within lots of other portfolios. So, some of what you've touched on today in terms of business rates, it's not within my portfolio. But we're investing £125 million of Transforming Towns funding over three years to support our town and city centres. I hear some of what you've suggested about those empty properties, and I've talked a little bit about how important we know it is to bring those empty properties back into use, and that's something that we're working with local authorities on doing. We have a number of funds and schemes within that. For example, I know that in Denbighshire—and I was there last week, talking to the leader and chief executive of Denbighshire—that Queen's Market is something that is on many people's radar; that's the former Savoy Hotel. There's a project there that proposes to return the semi-derelict site to a vibrant productive use and a more modern offer in the town centre: indoor market hall, varied food and beverage offer, temporary retail market stores, a flexible event space. It does sound really exciting. There's £6.45 million of Transforming Towns grant that has gone into that. So, there are lots of things, and we've seen that done well in other areas as well, so I'm sure that sounds quite exciting in Rhyl.

May I thank you for your statement today? It’s very welcome. I don't want to annoy every town in my region but I will focus on one in particular, Pontypridd, that's seen the best of times and the worst of times this year. So, it really resonated with me, what you said about arts and culture being important. The new model for a National Eisteddfod that was so successful this year, the transport links that worked brilliantly, that is something we could replicate in other parts of Wales. But the worst of times in terms of the flooding, and, of course, in terms of the 'Town centres: position statement' there is reference to the climate and nature emergencies, there's a reference in terms of the construction and maintenance of flood defences, but what about flood resilience? Because we need to be able to support small businesses to remain in our town centres. We've heard a number of warnings from businesses that were impacted by the floods in terms of not being able to get insurance, what it means in terms of being able to rebuild. So, what support will you be providing to towns like Pontypridd that, unfortunately, are going to suffer flooding again and where flood defences aren't the only solution? And can I invite you to visit Pontypridd and speak to the businesses directly yourself that have been impacted by the floods, but also benefited from the Eisteddfod?

Absolutely. Diolch, Heledd, and thank you for that. I realise you wouldn't want, as you said, to just focus on one town in particular, because you have a number in your region, but it's really good to hear you talk about Pontypridd. I've been there. I went to the Eisteddfod and visited the shops that were there, which was really brilliant. But we know of some of the damage that has been done to those shops. I've seen some of those photographs and pictures of that and heard from local businesses there, and know how difficult and traumatising it's been for them with the floods recently. Actually, I believe I'm going to Pontypridd next week, so that quickly, I think. So, your wish is my command, or my wish is your command, or whichever way around that is. But I will be visiting Pontypridd, and we know that some of those shops that had suffered through storm Dennis previously, and how difficult that had been, that some were actually—. Because of the mitigation and the repairs that have been done after that, and the investment that went in, some of them have been able to be back open quickly this time. So, there is some hope with that, but I know it has been really difficult for those businesses and people that have been affected. But I think that Pontypridd has a real energy about it. I've seen it for myself when I visited, and know that there are lots of really positive things happening in Pontypridd—[Interruption.]—town centre. 

Jenny Rathbone.

Okay. I'm really sorry. Thank you. Siân Gwenllian has already mentioned the impact, the really bad impact, of out-of-town developments, and we've seen in lots of town centres how supermarkets park their tanks on local communities' lawns and then eliminate a lot of the businesses in the town centre. So, there are two issues here. One is that, if you haven't got a car, it becomes extremely difficult to be able to get fresh food, because it's only available, after these shops close, from this said supermarket. So, I completely support Siân Gwenllian's idea of taxing these out-of-town developments.

My question to you, apart from how do we ensure that people can get fresh food within walking distance of communities—the Peckham principle—is: do we have the planning system sufficiently rigorous to prevent these sorts of horror stories happening again? It's very difficult to row back on decisions that have already been made—these organisations are there—but we absolutely don't need any more out-of-town-centre developments because, inevitably, they lead to the elimination of local businesses in town centres.  

Thank you, Jenny, and thank you for the points that you've raised. I think that we've seen over the years that trend towards out-of-town shopping centres, and that's where people then went to do their shopping. And we still know that people use those regularly now. Sometimes, it's quite interesting seeing out-of-town shopping centres that are actually very walkable to the high street, and I know that people are doing that a little bit more as well. 

In terms of what we need to do about that, I think, again, it's around having this programme that we're looking at, in terms of Transforming Towns, and what we need to do to encourage and support businesses in our town centres and heritage and arts. Because we need to find where people are going. We need to make sure people are attracted to going there, so they can buy their fresh fruit and veg there—fresh fruit and veg, which we all want to see. It's about where people want to go at the end of the day, isn't it, and if there are things in our town centres and city centres that are attracting people then people will go there.   

My office is based in Neath town centre, a town you highlighted in your statement, and over the last year I've worked with business owners in the town not just to hear more about the challenges they're facing—because many of them were very concerned because we lost a large Marks and Spencer store after 90 years of trading—but it was obvious to me that there are ways of overcoming those challenges when those big anchor stores shut, with the right support. It's not all about big developments—it's about grass-roots, ground up support as well. 

In a short space of time, we've gone from people spreading rumours that Neath market was going to close to it once again being celebrated now as a vital part of the character and economy of the town centre, and the traders themselves have delivered and supported lots of exciting events and activities designed to draw people in. So, how is the strategy supporting this type of on-the-ground activity, and how is the strategy also helping to update and make energy efficient older, iconic buildings that are crucial to town centres' prosperity and identity, such as Neath general market? Can the strategy help cash-strapped local authorities with that crucial work, in alignment with our net-zero goals? And I would invite you to come and see the vast potential and the great icon that is the historic Neath market.

Lovely. I'll definitely take you up on visiting Neath as well. I've seen some of the progress over the years that Neath has made in being brought back to life. I know there are some exciting plans as well. We've got the former youth offending team building, which is a project that is in its early stages, I believe, that is going to deliver high-quality commercial office space, and a site that links to the town centre—it's linked to the town centre—which I think is really important in some of the things that we've talked about today, about that bringing that footfall back in is really important. 

I think for so long we've talked about anchor buildings, haven't we, anchor sites, for shops. I know that, in my own authority, often that was talked about. Debenhams—I think I was eight when Debenhams first talked about coming to Newport, and I was a lot older than that when it did, and, sadly, it wasn't there for long. We know about these anchor sites, but I think, actually, people want something a bit different, don't they? They want independent shops, they want a different feel about where they want to shop, and I think it is really important that we celebrate those local businesses, community hubs in our town and city centres. I think it's just trying to really create that vibrancy again, because that's what people really want to see.

Within our plan, again, it's looking at how we can—. Whether it's locating public sector workforce into town centres, how we can get more health centres into our town and city centres. So, it is really important that we're looking at this in the round, really. It's not just about one aspect of it; it's about what is going to draw people in to our town and city centres, what is our vision, and I think that, as long as we're communicating with our communities, putting them at the heart of everything we do, then I think we'll see a really thriving town centre again.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary.

And if you're committing yourself to visiting towns all over the place, there's always Port Talbot you can come to. [Laughter.]

Item 7 today is a statement by the Minister for Mental Health and Well-being, innovation in healthcare. I call on the Minister, Sarah Murphy.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. The history of modern healthcare is one of innovation. New ways of working, interventions, technologies and medicines have helped our health service to evolve and, in turn, helped us to improve the health, well-being and wealth of people in Wales. Since the national health service was founded, it has looked after people using a huge range of in-person, digital and virtual models of care, which are, in turn, based on an enormous number of scientific, technological and social discoveries and breakthroughs. All this contributes to our ever-changing healthcare system.

Our innovation strategy for Wales, 'Wales Innovates', which was published last year, was designed to create the right environment for innovation, so we can keep on meeting today’s challenges. The challenges are an ageing population with major public health concerns like obesity and smoking, and the demand challenges of 2 million NHS contacts per month, and the very real consequences of health inequalities. 'Wales Innovates' is deliberately cross-Government, with four mission areas across health and social care, education, the economy, and climate and nature, and this results in a range of joint investment for healthcare innovation. For example, our economy department-led flexible innovation support programme is supporting Welsh companies on research, development and innovation across multiple sectors. This has led to cutting-edge projects, including the world's first blood test for multiple sclerosis and bioprinting technology for organ replacements. And in healthcare, our innovation technology and partnerships programme is supporting networks of innovation teams and leads across NHS Wales. It is also building workforce innovation capability through our four Welsh intensive learning academies and the Bevan Exemplars programme. Other examples include Health Technology Wales, which undertakes appraisals of non-medicine health and social care technologies and models of care; the small business research initiative centre of excellence, which is based in Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board and funds new and innovative solutions to address unmet needs through public-private-academic partnerships from feasibility stage to prototyping and to pre-procurement. Our tackling cancer initiative leads work in lung cancer. The transnasal endoscopy capsule sponge is a novel diagnostic tool for collecting tissue from the oesophagus for AI-assisted analysis.

Llywydd, when we are talking about innovation, we of course have to turn to AI. When it comes to artificial intelligence, leadership is crucial as we integrate its use into health and social care. The AI Commission for Health and Social Care was launched a year ago and leads on the development and review of the safe, responsible and ethical environment. It is guiding the use of AI in the health and social care sector in Wales, learning from experts and the global healthcare family. One of its first actions was to endorse the use of algorithmic transparency recording standards for use in health and social care, which will be actioned next year, and taking seriously the need for trust and openness when it comes to the use of AI in healthcare.

The NHS in Wales is already deploying AI tools in diagnostic and clinical pathways: AI is increasing the detection rate, for example, in prostate cancer by up to 13 per cent. Investment in AI technology illustrates that better data means better care. For example, using imaging data for stroke presentations in emergency care, we will be able to explore direct-to-scan admission for positive stroke presentations, optimising the benefit of the recent investment in AI to speed up time that saves lives and improves quality of life.

Our refreshed 'Digital and data strategy for health and social care in Wales', which was published in July 2023, recognises the importance of having a good digital foundation to services. Choose Pharmacy is a positive example of where we have made good progress. Access to NHS Wales digital records system data enabled this service to go live. Community pharmacies can provide treatments for 27 common illnesses without the need for a GP appointment, and there have been 368,725 consultations so far in 2024, more than a five-fold increase than five years ago.

Similarly, Cwm Taf Morgannwg University Health Board have taken an innovative digital, data and value linkage approach to work with social housing providers to identify tenants eligible for the retrospective fitting of insulation under ECO4, the energy company obligation scheme. So, this reduces instances of respiratory problems, improves energy efficiency, targeting innovation to the vulnerable where health inequalities may be a factor.

Dirprwy Lywydd, there is no shortage of innovation in Wales. We must ensure we make full use of innovation to improve health and social care and improve outcomes for people. Simply put, patients need to feel this improvement. To do that, we're working with national and international counterparts through our UK ministerial group to develop a common approach to innovation adoption, which recognises joint opportunities across our healthcare systems.

In Wales, we are focusing this work on a new innovations working at scale programme, which will be launched next year. An area of priority is embedding virtual and remote care as part of our home and community-based services. This will increase the speed at which we can adopt and implement innovation at a national level. This may mean, in some instances, doing less or stopping doing some things to enable these new innovations and discoveries to be introduced. For example, teams will have to stop automatically making out-patient appointments as a default when patient-initiated follow-up is the most innovative option. The NHS executive, with its digital, data, technology innovation and value function will lead this work and enable connections to be made across networks and locally.

The system is under pressure, and requires additional capacity for innovation to allow for a step change where innovation is the responsibility of all parts of the NHS as part of taking an 'adapt, adopt or justify' approach. To do this, we are building a range of national innovation infrastructure, based around an NHS Wales innovation framework, which will support our staff to develop new ideas, turn them into reality, sharing and adopting proven new ways of working. All of these actions will support us to construct and embed a culture of constant innovation across our vital healthcare system. Bevan's legacy should be about innovation, given that founding the NHS was the primary act of innovation in healthcare itself. The ultimate goal is, of course, better outcomes and experiences for all. Diolch yn fawr.

Thank you, Minister, for your statement here in the Chamber this afternoon. I absolutely agree with you in terms of the role that digital health innovation has in being crucial to building a health service fit for 2024 and beyond, so I'm grateful for the attention given to this topic here in the Chamber today.

Before I perhaps comment and ask questions on the more exciting parts of your contribution today, I just wanted to make the point that the ambition within here is good to see, but I know there's real frustration amongst colleagues in the health service in particular that some of the basics aren't happening in the digital space. So, for example, just using e-mails. E-mails were invented, what, decades ago now, and we're still not using them in many parts of the health service. An example of that is in optometry, where currently an optometrist has to physically sign off a letter, a letter that's physically posted to the patient's GP for referral, for that letter then to be communicated to a local hospital. That process takes a long time, there's lots of space for error, and it's a bad use of very well-qualified people's time, when simple things like an e-mail make such a difference. So, whilst there's some exciting comments in here about the potential around AI, which I'll come on to in a moment, there's a real opportunity to get some real basic stuff right here as well, which I hope you'll be able to take on board and see where those opportunities are to get the simple things done really well.

But, as you said, not only can digital innovation help in health settings themselves, but there's a huge opportunity in job creation and skill development, which I'd like to support you on. And we should be striving to make Wales a home for this sort of innovation in order to attract investment and top-class talent from around the globe. I was struck by my time in Tel Aviv earlier this year, at one of the hospitals where they purposely seek to attract people in cyber tech industries to develop really important technologies there that can be exported around the world, but also to be used for their own population as well. So, I wonder, Minister, what further plans Welsh Government have to work hand in glove with Welsh universities in particular.

I think they can play a real key role in turbocharging innovation. And one example is, recently, where I visited Swansea University, which hosts the CanSense lab, and they've created a speedy and cost-efficient bowel cancer diagnosis that uses AI to improve outcomes. They're funded by Cancer Research Wales, but it would be positive to see Welsh Government funding more innovations of this type, helping to facilitate in other ways as well, where you may see fit. I'd be interested to hear from you what more can be done in this space in particular. I think there's an issue we have in Wales, which is in spinning out companies or research from the concept. When that concept is proven, currently it's difficult to move onto the next stage to implement those concepts across our health system here in Wales. We're a small country; this should be really easy. We have a few universities here doing a great job, and it should be really easy for people to get that innovation into our health system here in Wales.

I also noted, Minister, the British Government announced in October several million pounds in funding for projects with innovative technologies and wearable sensors to support people with drug addictions and reduce drug-related deaths. It's important this funding comes to Wales as smoothly and as easily as possible. So, I'm not sure if you'll be able to comment on any conversations you've been having with counterparts in Westminster to ensure that that medical innovation and that funding for that come here to Wales.

And then finally, Minister, according to Business Wales, the life sciences industry currently employs around 12,000 people in around 260 companies up and down Wales, and that innovation is essential for medical progress, and also for stimulating economic growth and job creation, which, as you said, leads to better lives all round. So, I wonder how you and the Welsh Government are working with the private sector to help achieve the goals of innovation in healthcare. With 75 per cent of the life sciences market in Wales being export focused, the financial benefits of getting this right are huge, and will be incredibly valuable for achieving that innovation in healthcare, and indeed improving brand Wales around the world. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Thank you so much, Sam Rowlands, for your recognition of the ambition and also how exciting this is. I find it very exciting. This is an area that I worked in before I got elected, and this is absolutely my passion, and I think that there is so much innovation happening in Wales. We have the brightest and the best, and I think it comes back to we're not always the best at showing some of this off. So, this is why it is really wonderful to be able to do this statement today.

I would say that, in terms of—. First of all, you mentioned about the funding and the innovation that's happening here and mentioned CanSense. Of course, CanSense was part of the Welsh small business research initiative challenge fund for cancer, which saw Welsh Government support and give funding of about £600,000, and there was £400,000 given in Northern Ireland. It was a collective thing that was happening. CanSense is one of those amazing examples, where it came out of Swansea University, it's going to help be able to diagnose bowel cancer, which is the second leading cancer that people pass away from in Wales. It's incredibly innovative, and again that was something that came from funding in Wales, and has come from clinicians in Wales.

Just to say the update though is, and I know what you mean about the kind of timing: if works and it's very innovative, then why isn't it just getting rolled out? It's because they have to go through so many trials. I wish it could be quicker myself, and that's the only thing when it comes to the health innovation, the innovation and the people who have come together in that team, and I really thank them for it—it can take time, then. It has to go through the Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency. So, just to reassure you, that is where CanSense is at the moment, but that is something that I think we're very excited to be able to see rolled out. And there are lots of other innovations that have come through here. We've got Ibex, which is to demonstrate whether a new AI-based tool, which is about gastric, can be used to accurately triage gastric biopsies for urgent review by pathologists. There is just so much happening in this space.

You are right, as well, about the basics. The simple answer to your question around, 'We need to get this right—are we getting this right?' is, 'Absolutely, I 100 per cent agree with you.' I've got many friends and family who work in the NHS and it really gets them down. It really gets them down that they don't have the basics and that these things are taking more time, and that's very much, then, in the digital space, and this is something that we have to work on, and this is something in Welsh Government that we have to lead on, and that kind of comes back to the statement that I was making and what both of my colleagues in the health department have also said, which is that we're very much now setting that standard of, 'You have to be agile and you have to adapt, or you have to tell us why not.' And I think that in the digital space, what we're trying to say is that these are the key priorities, and the key priorities are the things that really matter to everybody on a day-to-day basis. So, with eye care, yes, that's taken longer than it should have to roll out, but it is going to be rolled out. We've got the electronic prescription system as well. That's being rolled out now, not just within all of our health boards, but also across our GPs. These are things that really will transform the NHS, and patients' experience.

You also mentioned then the kind of teletracking. I'm a big fan of this. I've seen this working in hospitals as well in England. It is very, very helpful. It can seem so simple, but you just put a band on somebody and then you can keep tabs on them wherever they are in the diagnostic pathway once they go into the hospital. Then you also have the tracking that you can do with people at home, so that you've got that follow-up. We are doing some of that in Wales, and I would like to see that rolled out. It all comes back to prevention. It all comes back to preventing people from needing to go into hospital. It all comes back to being able to diagnose people as soon as possible.

And then you mentioned the life sciences hub. We're really proud of the life sciences hub in Wales. Again, I know that the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care was talking about it recently, about the work that we're doing in the genomics space. Again, we've created what innovation needs in Wales, which is that ecosystem where you can come up with these ideas and then you will be listened to and they will be lifted up. And in my statement as well, I was talking about the NHS executive. It's about taking these—. And I could read you off a million examples, but you mentioned CanSense and I won't. But just to say it's now about the NHS executive as well, with the support of Welsh Government, going out and really scaling up this innovation. But just to end by saying there is so much good happening. I will also ensure that we're delivering, though, very much, on those basics. Diolch.

I agree with the Minister. This is a really exciting field. This is where it's at. If we're going to improve efficiencies, if we're going to improve outcomes, then we're going to have to get to grips with ensuring that we have an innovative environment where people feel that they can develop new ideas and roll them out. Wales is great at innovation. But we're very, very poor at rolling it out, at implementing that innovation at scale. I was fortunate and honoured to be attending the European Cancer Organisation's European cancer summit in Brussels two weeks ago, and while there, we helped launch their new cancer app, funded by the European Union. That's going to allow cancer patients in 16 countries across the EU to be able to track their progress from diagnosis through the pathway, and their GP will be able to access that information, family members will be able to access it. It's all-encompassing. Unfortunately, because of Brexit, Wales isn't part of that, but they're willing to work with the Welsh Government to help roll that out and to see if we can introduce it to Wales.

But as the title of this statement is around mental health, I'd like to touch on mental health as well. Mental health is, as I know the Minister knows, a comparatively new and underexplored branch of healthcare. It's an area where innovation can actually make a huge difference. Since far too many people across Wales continue to struggle with their mental health on a daily basis, as was clearly outlined in the recent 'Wellbeing of Wales' report, there is a real need for decisive action on this front here. As a party, Plaid Cymru were proud to have been integral in establishing a 24/7 mental health crisis hub in Carmarthen—the first of its kind in Wales—as part of the co-operation agreement. We also welcome the fact that this has paved the way for the development of similar hubs in other areas of the country. So, I'd be grateful, therefore, for an update from the Minister in her response as to the progress of this programme of work and whether she agrees that such hubs are precisely the kind of innovative action required in the field of mental health, especially to address rural inequalities.

We know that mental health is absolutely key for the preventative agenda, and this, in turn, is dependent on effective and reliable data gathering to drive early intervention. But, as I've mentioned numerous times before, the NHS in Wales remains an analogue organisation in a digital age. Mind Cymru has highlighted the lack of a mental health core data set as a particular barrier that has hampered the ability of relevant services to identify key groups of people at risk of inequality of provision. Furthermore, in a story that is sadly familiar across so many areas of the health and social care sector, there is no reliable data collection on staff shortages at psychiatric wards, for example. So, how can service providers, which are supposed to pinpoint where best to deploy their resources, do this if they remain in the dark as to gaps in capacity? So, will the Minister commit to rolling out a comprehensive mental health core data set, including routinely published information on issues such as staff vacancies and waiting times that is assessed against performance metrics?

In fairness to the Government, they have got previous form in promoting initiatives that push the boundaries on mental health care. The NHS Confederation recently highlighted the collaboration between the Arts Council of Wales and Nesta to provide online creative courses for vulnerable adults during the pandemic as an example of best practice in innovation. And we've consistently emphasised the important role that the arts sector can and must play in supporting mental health. It's deeply regrettable, therefore, that the arts sector has been hit by such swingeing cuts in recent Government budgets. So, when we hear of major job losses in the national library, for example, or the fact that our cash-strapped museums are having to consider charging for entry, it isn't just a blow to the vitality of our cultural institutions, it compromises a holistic and society-wide approach to improving the well-being of our population. So, I'd like to hear the Minister's response to that and understand what action the Minister is taking in Government to ensure that that sector gets the funding that it deserves. 

And finally, on innovation and, in a broader sense, clinical trials, we know that clinical trials are vitally important to ensure that innovative ideas are rolled out and that people get the medicine they require. So, what action is the Minister and the Government taking to ensure that we attract more clinical trials to Wales and that Wales leads the way when it comes to clinical trials? Diolch.

Thank you so much, Mabon ap Gwynfor. You are right, and you reiterated again, as Sam Rowlands also said and I said in my statement, that this is about efficiency, outcomes and also patient safety. You talked then as well about apps. I will look into more what they've done with the cancer app. I also regret that we aren't able to be part of it. However, we are doing things, I think, in a very responsible way in Wales, and we do have the great basis of the NHS app, which was, obviously, rolled out during COVID and which thousands of people are joined up to now in Wales. The potential there is huge. The NHS app is something that I get asked about a lot. It's one of my absolute top key priorities. I've put together now a group of top officials so that we can work on rolling this out. I know that we get comparisons with England, we get comparisons with other countries, but I think that we've been able to use the time to learn some of the lessons, to look at other countries and what they're doing. And my goal now is to roll it out and also be able to leapfrog, to be able to go even further. So, what you said about the cancer app is very interesting. To be honest, it will mirror very much, though, what we're trying to do through the NHS app, which is being able to show people that linkage between primary and secondary care. And having that transparency, being able to empower people and being able to explain to people what the pathways are, all of this health literacy is absolutely vital, I think. 

You also mentioned, then, mental health. It's really wonderful to hear what's happening at the mental health hub. I would say that I've got pockets of this in my community as well. They're started by some of the best people I've ever met, who just really want to give back. I think that, after COVID, a lot of people now, even more so, don't take it for granted when you can be together, that connection, that belonging, especially, as you said, in rural areas. And I was there when the Samaritans launched their work in this area, on mental health in rural communities, at the Royal Welsh show this year. I also made the point, as well, though, that I went and launched and did the very first WhatsApp message from the Meic helpline at ProMo Cymru a couple of weeks ago, which was very cool. Again, I don't know if enough people know about it—the Meic helpline, any young person can send a message, they can send a WhatsApp now and it's a real human being on the other end of it who's talking them through their problems. I think those things and having that range of access is so important.

And I also wanted to say that we do also sometimes forget that we have the '111 press 2', which is all-Wales, and, again, I see it as having so much potential. The Royal College of Psychiatrists is always telling me—Ollie John—there’s so much potential with this, because what people want is that, they may have that moment of crisis, then they want the follow-up. What we're also thinking is, in that moment of crisis, of course, you're not going to be able to get or you can't sit there and collect the data on somebody, but, afterwards, if you're going to give somebody a follow-up call, check that they're okay, check that they got the service that they required, it's also an opportunity then to just ask them a few more questions, and that will give us that better data, better care, so I agree with you on that.

Coming to the data that we collect and the points of data that we have access to in Wales, you were absolutely right—I was quite shocked myself to discover that we have so few compared to England and Scotland. I, therefore, completely understand and appreciate, when there are third sector organisations like Mind Cymru, like Beat, who will then do their own analysis, usually having to base it off inspection reports or having to base it off FOIs, because we don't have that data set readily available, that we have to get onto this. This is something that I've been talking to officials about and we have to address. I 100 per cent agree with you that.

When you say about, as well, in terms of the arts, I mean, of course, a big part of my portfolio is also the social prescribing. I'm hoping that, again, through the digital, through the innovation, that social prescribing will be an area where we can spread even further. Obviously, in the area, there's a bit of cross-Government there, but the budget will very much sit with my colleague, and the budget is, obviously, coming. But I completely agree with you on the difference that that makes to somebody's mental health and well-being, and just, again, our nation, really, and the mental health and well-being, and pride that we have in our nation, I think, are really key.

And then, I think I've answered all of your—[Interruption.] Clinical trials—yes, of course. So, just to say, we also do have, as well as all the amazing things that I've talked about today and the innovation and everything like this, we do also have a very strong international strategy. My officials go off and they talk to many other countries and organisations about having clinical trials.

I would say, though, and this is very much anecdotal on my side, we also have this SAIL Databank at Swansea University. It is world leading. It is envied by researchers across the world. There are so many people who submit requests to do clinical trials using the SAIL database. I think that we need to have a look into—this is my own personal thought here—the data and ensuring that there is that intersectionality, though, within the data, because I know that it's not always possible to do some of the trials that I think we should be able to do, and that's something that I would like to see improved. But, like I said, SAIL is envied and used and is a wonderful resource. I believe data off the people of Wales should be for the people of Wales, and I see SAIL as an excellent example of that. So, diolch yn fawr.

Thank you very much. You've packed a lot of information into this one statement and there's, obviously, lots of great stuff going on. I just wanted to highlight two of the things you mentioned. One is the imaging data for stroke presentations in emergency care to speed up diagnosis and treatment options. I wonder if you could say why you put it in the future tense:

'we will be able to explore',

because I know that, having talked to Dr Shakeel Ahmad about this—he's the national lead—that this is definitely a lifesaver. So, that's one question.

The second thing is something completely different, which is that Cwm Taf Morgannwg University Health Board has taken an innovative digital data and value-linkage approach to working with social housing to levering ECO4 for tenants, and this is very encouraging for the people in Cwm Taf Morgannwg. Unfortunately, there's not such a good tale to tell in lots of other local authorities, because, obviously, this is ECO4 money—this is money external to Wales. Having heard the evidence in the Equality and Social Justice Committee about Warm Wales, which is a social enterprise, trying to help lever this in for tackling fuel poverty, most local authorities are not availing themselves of its services through Cardiff University, which enables you to spot worst first—

You need to conclude, please.

So, could you just say a little bit more about that, if you have any, and if not, perhaps you could, obviously, provide that information at another time?

Yes, of course. The short answer is that, with all of these innovations that have been mentioned today, the intention is absolutely to roll them all out. I will be able to get a timetable for you on where that is, but, as I said, they come through the innovation and then it goes to the NHS executive, and it is their role then to really spread this out and partner it across. The example that you gave is very much about that prevention, so that is absolutely what we're trying to do. Again, the Minister, Cabinet Secretary, what we always keep saying is, 'This is a national health service. This is the national health service for Wales.' That goes for our digital strategy, that goes for the innovation, as well. Everything is all across Wales, and everyone should be able to have access to it. As I said in my response to Sam Rowlands, when it comes to health, it takes time, as anything does, to scale up, but it also takes time because it does have to be overseen and trained with clinicians. It has to be very, very safe. So, I want to reassure you that that is absolutely happening.

And then, I was hoping that you might pick up on the ECO4 project. I think it's absolutely tremendous. It did start in Cwm Taf Morgannwg, and it's quite simple in that they basically identified about 600 patients who were coming in, having respiratory problems. Then they referred them to the third sector, through a third party, who got in touch with them, checked their home and then checked that they were receiving pension credits and these kinds of things. We've seen this innovation in Birmingham, for example, as well. We've seen other health boards do this, where you can use certain data to identify people who you know, you could probably check up on and then prevent them coming into the NHS. I know that the Cabinet Secretary is very much doing this in the 50-day challenge. That's kind of the purpose of it—it's that prevention, it's that targeting. The data is there, so it's just about somebody in Cwm Taf Morgannwg going, 'Let's have a look at these people,' and that's the way it works. It is being shared out. We have really good networks now. We have the NHS executive as well, which is able to spread this across. But, like I said, I could give you a list—I would say every health board is doing something that's very cool and very special in some way. It is our job, then, to identify them and give them the support to scale that up so that everybody has these opportunities.

Finally, Gareth Davies.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd, and thank you very much for your statement tonight, Minister, on this really exciting subject. I am a fan of technology, particularly in healthcare, with my background, so it's very exciting. I agree with a lot of the comments already made during the statement, and I'd just be repeating, obviously, what's already been said, but I want to ask, really, about artificial intelligence in mental health specifically, and how that can be incorporated in mental health and delivering some of the treatments, as mental health issues are more common and, obviously, more complex and with growing complexities, and how that can be embedded within mental health services going into the future.

Just briefly, separately, as well, how can we, in your opinion, seek more synergy across healthcare systems in terms of technology? In terms of the statement and what we're discussing today, it's very exciting, but then, equally, at the same time, we've got, obviously, still paper records in the NHS. The role-out of e-prescriptions is still to be tangibly felt across the country. So, how can we get more synergy and have technological advancements across healthcare systems that can better help people? If you take e-prescriptions, for example, it's 15 years behind England, because they rolled it out back in 2008. So, there's a long catch-up for Wales, and I think, really, we should be more ambitious in trying to achieve better technological advances in healthcare in a more strategic way that can deliver positive outcomes for people across Wales. Thank you.

Thank you very much. Those are two really interesting questions. I have a lot here on AI; we're using AI a lot across the NHS—a lot of it is early detection and diagnostics. I'll be very honest with you, I haven't seen any at the moment being deployed specifically in the mental health area. But coming back to what Mabon ap Gwynfor was asking me about in terms of the technology being used to be able to connect with people, I also would say that what we ultimately need is—. Fundamentally, it comes back to the data. We need to have better mental health data in general.

I would be quite concerned, I think, at the moment, if we started deploying AI onto the data that we currently hold in terms of mental health records. I think it's incredibly sensitive data and I think that even though a lot of people, yourself included, have done a lot to reduce the stigma around mental health, there are still some things that would impact people's lives if people were to find out, and that people deserve to keep private. So, first and foremost, I would say that we need to get better with the mental health data and the quality of it.

One of the major things that we've done is that we now have the electronic mental health record, which is being designed and deployed by Betsi Cadwaladr—a wonderful team, and I'm really confident. And then, also, Cwm Taf Morgannwg are also involved in that. I think they will lead on it and that will be rolled out across Wales, and then I believe that we'll know that we have some really quality data there to be able to use. But at the moment, I would be reluctant to put it through AI as it currently is. The data needs to be better and that's what you pointed to; there are some fundamental things here that we just have to get right.

In terms of the synergy, this is what it's all about. We've got so much good and it's just about making sure that it's everywhere—it is a national health service. We're going to have a digital summit next year, where we will be leading on the message, once again reiterating the 'once for Wales' policy. It's a national health service, everyone should be getting the same across Wales. I think that people assume that all of our medical records and everything are already linked up and that if I went into the hospital in Denbigh, they would know who I was and what I needed, but they wouldn't, and we really need to push through this.

As I said, we are behind England in some respects, but there have also been some really big mistakes that were made in England; they lost a lot of confidence from patients and people by trying to roll it out. They also damaged their relationships with GPs, in many ways, by forcing them to change the contract and take on the responsibility without negotiating with them. We're not going to make those mistakes in Wales and I think that's when we're going to leapfrog over. So, there's lots to be positive about, but I don't underestimate the challenge here, and that's why it is my priority and that's why I am setting the priorities of what we're actually going to deliver and what we're going to leave by the wayside, honestly.

Thank you, Minister.

Item 8 is next, the Allocation of Housing and Homelessness (Eligibility) (Wales) (Amendment) Regulations 2024. I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Housing and Local Government to move the motion—Jayne Bryant.

Diolch, Deputy Llywydd. We have laid the draft Allocation of Housing and Homelessness (Eligibility) (Wales) (Amendment) Regulations 2024 to amend the Allocation of Housing and Homelessness (Eligibility) (Wales) Regulations 2014, known as the 2014 regulations. The amendments reflect changes to the immigration rules, which now make specific provisions for persons who are victims of transnational marriage abandonment, and also now provide the Home Office with the discretion to lift an immigration condition that prohibits recourse to public funds. The amendments also reflect recently amended eligibility regulations applicable to England. The regulations will extend eligibility to housing and housing assistance to a person who is a victim of transnational marriage abandonment and to a person whose no-recourse-to-public-funds immigration condition has been lifted at the discretion of the Home Office.

Transnational marriage abandonment is a form of domestic abuse. It involves controlling and coercive behaviour and can leave a person abandoned or stranded abroad by their visa-dependent spouse, usually without any financial resources or immigration documents, with the aim of preventing them from returning to the UK. A no-recourse-to-public-funds immigration condition may be lifted at the discretion of the Home Office in specific circumstances, including those that are impacting the welfare of a child or causing destitution. We are also removing redundant provisions of the 2014 regulations that refer to the Accession of Croatia (Immigration and Worker Authorisation) Regulations 2013, because the accession period has come to an end. 

Before making the regulations, the signature block will be updated and a minor update made to a footnote. I hope that Members will approve the motion, as this will provide victims of transnational marriage abandonment and other persons who are in very difficult circumstances with important services. I hope that Members will also recognise that their support for the regulations will help strengthen Wales's commitment to being a nation of sanctuary, committed to human rights and promoting peace.

Plaid Cymru supports these regulations, which expand the criteria to include people—mainly women—who are under great disadvantage at the moment. The cohort is small, but it's very vulnerable indeed, and amending the regulations does emphasise that Wales is a nation of sanctuary—a safe and welcoming place for those who have no home and who live in very difficult circumstances.

I call on the Cabinet Secretary to reply to the debate.

Diolch, Deputy Llywydd. I welcome the opportunity to debate the regulations and thank the Member for the contribution made today. Given the clear benefit the regulations will bring, I hope that Members will support this motion.

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? No; the motion is, therefore, agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

There are no votes today, so that brings today's proceedings to a close.