Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru

Good afternoon and welcome to this afternoon's Plenary meeting. The first item on our agenda this afternoon will be questions to the Cabinet Secretary for North Wales and Transport. The first question is from Jenny Rathbone.

Presiding Officer, I understand that you've given your permission for questions 1 and 9 to be grouped. I'm very grateful indeed.

I can say that Cardiff Council and local bus operators have been working proactively together to provide a sustainable bus network in the region, supported by significant funding support from the Welsh Government through our bus network grant, which was also introduced in April.

The Government funding for the bus station has been very welcome, but the delay in producing a new bus station is not. The central bus station was demolished in 2008 and the new one is, I understand, about to be reopened. And it's made it really difficult for both local people and visitors to our capital city to know how to navigate their way through the bus system. Meanwhile, huge developments have taken place, all of them welcome, but the needs of bus passengers have definitely dropped off the end. And it seems to me that we need to look at the procurement process as to how this could have happened, because I was told that it wouldn't be possible to get the developers to finish in a more timely fashion without incurring a lot of additional costs in amending the contract. I just really want to understand how we can learn from this process so that we ensure that, when somebody takes on a contract, they then complete it within a specific time.

Well, can I thank Jenny Rathbone for her question and I do recognise the importance of a new bus station to Cardiff and to the wider region as well? It's vitally important in ensuring that we get modal shift that we give people a decent, twenty-first century facility for them to wait at whilst they await their buses.

Now, I am pleased to be able to inform the Senedd today that the bus station will definitely be open by the summer recess. There have been delays—the Member is absolutely right. The latest one concerns the sign-off of the building. It was difficult to find the local authority officials with the appropriate skills and expertise, but we have managed to find them from Caerphilly, so we're very grateful to that local authority. And the station keys, effectively, were handed over to Transport for Wales on Monday. They'll be now meeting with various stakeholder groups to ensure that everybody's concerns around accessibility are taken on board and that if there are any last-minute tweaks that need to be made, they will be. But I can share that information today that the bus station will be opened in the coming weeks. Thank you.

What plans does the Cabinet Secretary have to support bus travel in Cardiff?

You don't need to ask the tabled question in that context, you can just move straight to your supplementary.

Diolch. As Jenny Rathbone has already said, there's been a huge delay over the bus station. My constituents have had to wait for nine years, I think, now. I hear you say, and I'm very pleased to hear you say, that it will be open before the summer, but we have been told this many times before, so, I think if we can remember that. 

But I wanted to bring up the issue of the accessibility of the new bus station, because, obviously, we want the interchange to be absolutely fully accessible. I'm told that the British Deaf Association in Wales were not consulted over the design of the interchange, and I understand that Guide Dogs Cymru have concerns regarding a lack of a central help point and that people who are blind or partially sighted will have to locate roving ambassadors to get assistance, which is causing a great deal of concern. So, I don't know if the Cabinet Secretary has got any information about to what extent disability groups have been worked with in order to produce this final version. And I do hope that the recommendations from the groups will be taken on board when this is completed.

Absolutely. Can I thank Julie Morgan for her question as well? I can assure Members that, given that the station was handed back to TfW this week, we are now absolutely certain that it will be opening before the summer recess. It's come back from the contractors ready for TfW to carry out final engagement work with a number of different groups, and they will include—I can assure Julie Morgan—the British Deaf Association and Guide Dogs Cymru. They'll have the opportunity to visit the bus station before it opens, for an opportunity to provide further feedback. And I can also assure Members that the Cardiff bus interchange will fully comply with requirements set out in the Equality Act 2010. To assist blind and partially sighted customers, there will be tactile flooring throughout the concourse, and there will also be an accessibility map, where there'll be information about where bus bays are located and where facilities are located. The ambassadors who will be available are not there to replace those vitally important support services, they are there to enhance them, and I'm sure that user groups will welcome them once the interchange is open.

As you will know, Cabinet Secretary, I have brought up previously in this Chamber that, for some time now, buses in England have been retrofitted with fans to help improve air quality. Indeed, it has been found that, over a 100-day period, one bus can remove approximately 65g of particles from the air, which is about the weight of a tennis ball. Removing these particles is an easy win for councils, to improve air quality and tackle toxic pollution, because no energy is required—the filters work as the bus moves around. With this in mind, why don't we have these buses in Cardiff? Thank you.

Can I thank Joel James for his question? Just to assure him, bus fleet decarbonisation is a programme for government commitment for this Welsh Government. In the spring, we've been sharing our plans to deliver on this commitment and the target set out in 'Net Zero Wales'. We've been investing in electric buses across Wales—in the north and the south. There are also exciting plans for hydrogen services as well. Decarbonising the bus fleet in Wales by 2035 is an ambitious programme, but we are confident that we can deliver on it and we're keen to work with partners to deliver against this agenda.

Supporting the switch to zero-emission vehicles is central to our approach to tackling transport emissions. We are investing in active travel, new electric trains, zero-emission buses, electric car clubs and the charging network to support electric vehicles across Wales.

Diolch. Thank you. After reports in February that Cardiff-based FleetEV had agreed a multimillion pound deal with the Welsh Government to supply electric vehicles, I was contacted by a senior transport professional in north Wales, expressing concern that the company had only been incorporated since October 2022, with no trading figures and a net worth of just £6,316. They added that this is hardly an established financially stable company to go into such a big spend with, and that the sole director and 100 per cent shareholder has previously been the director of four companies, all of which have gone into administration. Do you share this concern, will you investigate, and how do you respond to my constituent's concern that, although the Welsh Government states that Welsh Government commercial delivery followed the Welsh procurement policy statement, FleetEV's second year accounts were not posted until 28 December 2023, and the Welsh Government waited until early January, as the other tendering companies sat waiting, before proceeding with the procurement progress, which led to the announcement that FleetEV was the successful bidder?

Can I thank Mark Isherwood for his questions regarding this matter? I'll examine the issues raised today and provide feedback to Members. There are some serious concerns that have been raised. They require investigation, I believe, and so I'll share the feedback as soon as I can with Members across the Chamber.

Cabinet Secretary, there can be no doubt that a move to electric vehicles is an essential part of our journey to net zero, and it's a move that many of my constituents are keen to make. However, there can be hurdles, and, representing a Valleys constituency, the most common worry that residents raise with me is how they can make that change to an electric vehicle if they live in a terraced street or other types of housing without access to off-road parking. They ask me what infrastructure Welsh Government is suggesting for people like them to help them charge their vehicles at home. Now, we know that there's an increasing number of charging points available in public spaces, usually due to Welsh Government funding streams, but I would say that access to these is not currently sufficient to give those without access to their own off-road parking at home the confidence that they need to make that shift to electric cars. So, Cabinet Secretary, what reassurance can you provide to my constituents on this thorny issue?

Can I thank Vikki Howells for the question that has been raised today, which is hugely important to many communities, especially in the Valleys, where there are many, many terraced properties that are immediately on the street, and which would not currently lend themselves well to traditional types of EV charging? For those properties, and in those local authorities, Transport for Wales is working on solutions, and I'm sure that we'll have a package of ideas brought forward soon for consideration. But, Vikki Howells is absolutely right—we are investing very heavily in EV charging points, public EV charging points. We've invested, I believe, over £6 million to help local authorities increase the number of publicly accessible charging points, and we now have over 2,500 in Wales. Now, that's an increase of 55 per cent over the last year, so a very significant increase. We do lag behind London, where there are 221 publicly available charging devices per 100,000 population. However, Wales is faring better today and now leading many English regions.

It's absolutely vital that we look at emerging technology as well. Toyota have promised a dry, solid-state cell vehicle by 2028. Now, we need to understand what implications there may be for electric vehicle charging points if this is successfully developed and made available on the open market. I'm sure that all manufacturers would wish to follow that technology, given that it has potential to offer a far greater range and far quicker charging speeds. So, we also need to make sure that all of the EV charging points that we are investing in are futureproofed, because it may well be that we reach a point where, a bit like with Betamax and VHS, we have to choose one over the other, and we want to be able to back the eventual winner. 

My family backed Betamax, which didn't work out well. [Laughter.]

Questions now from the party spokespeople. The Welsh Conservative spokesperson, Darren Millar. 

Diolch, Llywydd. Cabinet Secretary, in your capacity as the Cabinet Secretary for north Wales, can you tell us what action you're taking to ensure that north Wales gets its fair share of investment from the Welsh Government?

Well, I could talk for many hours on this subject—and I have done in the past—about the vital role of initiatives like regional indicative budgets, of making sure that Welsh Government Ministers work with the Minister for north Wales on issues that are relevant to north Wales. We have a Cabinet sub-committee that considers major issues relevant to north Wales, and I'm determined to ensure that, as we seek out opportunities for the whole of Wales, we do so in a fair and equal way, and invest fair'y and equally in opportunities to drive prosperity across the country.

Well, you make all the right noises, but we're yet to see the right actions from the Welsh Government, aren't we—that's the reality. Local government settlements are usually worse in north Wales. We're seeing a lack of investment in our road infrastructure in north Wales. You're building new hospitals in south Wales, but not in the north. That is the record of this Government, and I'm hoping that you as an incoming Cabinet Secretary, representing a north Wales constituency, might be able to change that. 

The UK Government, of course, has its levelling-up agenda, and it wants to level up across the whole of the UK. We need a Welsh Government to have a levelling-up agenda within Wales, but that is not the reality, is it, because let's take the disparity, for example, between spending in north and south Wales, just on the metro projects. The south Wales metro has been awarded in excess of £1 billion by the Welsh Government, and has a set of major infrastructure projects elsewhere in south Wales that are well under way. In the north, the metro project there has been allocated a mere £50 million. Now, even when accounting for population differences, south Wales is still getting more than five times the investment per capita—five times—than north Wales. That is not good enough, is it, Cabinet Secretary? What are you going to do to address that gross unfairness?

Well, can I thank Darren Millar for his second question today? Let me just run through the facts of the matter. The south Wales metro is a very significant investment—investment as part of the city deal. The north Wales metro, and the north Wales infrastructure improvements on rail, are not part of the north Wales growth deal—the equivalent. To ensure that we can see delivery of infrastructure improvements to enable a north Wales metro, we have to have those responsible for funding them writing the cheques. We're not getting that. We've had a vague promise of money for the north Wales main line electrification, which, with just £1 billion, would probably only electrify it from Chester through to Prestatyn at best. We need firm commitments from the UK Government not just on the main line, but we need them to make a firm commitment to upgrade the Wrexham-Bidston line, for which they're responsible, the Marches line, for which they're responsible. We need them to promise that it won't just be electrification from Chester to Prestatyn, but the whole way through to Holyhead. And crucially, to enable more passenger services, we have to ensure that capacity constraints at Chester station are resolved as well. These have all been priorities of the Welsh Government, of Growth Track 360, of the Wales rail board, which combines Welsh Government officials with UK Government officials. Unfortunately, time and time again, UK Treasury have said 'no'. That's the reason why we've seen more heavy investment in south Wales than north Wales. Once we get a new UK Labour Government in power at Westminster, I am confident that difference in spending and investment will be resolved.

Of course, the current UK Government, the Conservative Government, has actually delivered some electrification in Wales, unlike the promises made and not kept by the previous Labour Government, and it's committed itself to in excess of £1 billion-worth of investment in the north Wales railway network to electrify it. But let's get back to your responsibilities here. The reality is that hundreds of millions of pounds have been allocated by the Welsh Government to projects in south Wales, and a pittance has been thrown, like crumbs from the table, to the people of north Wales, who, frankly, are very angry with the Welsh Government for that situation. 

Let's talk about another issue where there's a huge disparity and unfairness for the people of north Wales. Let's take Transport for Wales, for example. Ticket prices on Transport for Wales: between Swansea and Cardiff, you can pay £5.50 for a single ticket; a similar journey in north Wales between Llandudno Junction and Chester is £13.10. It's a huge, significant difference, which is grossly unfair. Why should people in north Wales pay double for their railway tickets, not get the investment in the metro that you promised them in a manifesto two manifestos back, and why should they put up with the unfair settlements that they receive in terms of capital investment from the Welsh Government?

Your answers, frankly, today are not good enough. I want to know what you're doing to address these problems and what specific action you will now take to deal with this disparity from Transport for Wales. 

Can I just pick up on one point regarding rail and north Wales and investment? We were consistently asking UK Government to spend money on the Wrexham to Chester doubling, were we not? They kept saying 'no'. As a result of a deal between ourselves and the Welsh Liberal Democrats, we were able to invest in it. We will go on investing in it. We shouldn't have to. The UK Treasury is responsible for that piece of rail infrastructure, but the UK Treasury, under the Tories, once again said, 'No, we will not deliver for north Wales', just as they said, 'We will not deliver for north Wales on the Wrexham to Bidston line', just as they said that they will not deliver for north Wales on capacity constraints at Chester station, which will facilitate more services into north Wales.

They've said 'no' to us when we've asked for a degree of control over Avanti West Coast. You pick up on rail services in north Wales, so let me tell you: Transport for Wales's punctuality is far higher—far higher—than Avanti West Coast's, which the UK Government is responsible for and refuses to allow us any say in who should control that franchise. Indeed, they reappointed Avanti West Coast without even asking whether we agreed with it. They went ahead with giving Avanti West Coast, a very poor performer compared to TfW, another several years of operating that failed rail service. 

Now, in terms of north Wales investment, let's just pick up on some of the recent investments that we have made. Let's say AMRC, the advanced manufacturing research centre at Airbus, a hugely valuable piece of infrastructure that will drive prosperity not just at Airbus but across the region. Also, the development bank headquartering in north Wales—

I'm very pleased about it.

Hugely important—I'm glad that you welcome it. And not just that, as I said, we are investing—

Crumbs.

It's not crumbs. We are investing in opportunities right across north Wales, but there is more that we want to do and will do. We'll do it in part because we've invested £800 million in new rolling stock. TfW, when they took over the franchise in 2018, had one of the oldest fleets in the UK. By the end of this year, they will have one of the newest fleets. We took over just 270 train carriages in 2018. By the time the orders are finished, we'll have more than 470 train carriages on the lines, brand-new trains operating in north Wales. The franchises the UK Government operate in Wales can't boast the same.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Delyth Jewell.

Diolch, Llywydd. Cabinet Secretary, I'd like to ask you about transport for young people, please. The Welsh Government's most recent child poverty strategy acknowledges that the cost of transport feeds into child poverty and exclusion. Now, there are a number of Government schemes aimed at partially alleviating transport costs on young people. I welcome that. But the Welsh Youth Parliament has found that 72 per cent of young people aren't aware of the discounts that are on offer. Could you tell me how the Welsh Government is helping young people to travel sustainably and affordably, but also how you're raising awareness amongst those young people about the discount schemes that could actually help them to make those journeys?

Well, can I thank Delyth Jewell for her question? I know this is a subject that she's passionate about, and has raised with me not just in the Chamber, but also in our discussions privately. There are huge opportunities once we've passed the bus Bill, I think, to create not just an integrated transport system, but also to make sure that we have fairer fares, and that includes for young people. Now, there are already, as the Member has highlighted, discounted schemes and free travel for children and young people on public transport in Wales. We keep it under review. It is based on the availability of funding as to how far we can go with it. We are open to considering all options for young people, including those that could come into being once we have started regulating bus services again. 

Thank you for that. Now, you alluded obliquely there, possibly, to the Learner Travel (Wales) Measure 2008, and some of the discussions that we've had about that. We have been told, on the learner travel Measure, that the current review won't result in any increase in the distance eligibility for free school transport. Now, the costs of school transport for children has led to children missing out on school, because their parents can't afford to get them there on the school bus. Now, I worry about the effects of this on education, on worsening poverty, as we've already discussed, social exclusion, also on the Welsh language, because—again, we've discussed this before—there are cases across Wales where parents want to send their child to Welsh-medium education, but they're not eligible for free transport to their nearest Welsh language school. So, could you tell me, firstly, please, how this links up with 'Cymraeg 2050'? And also, Cabinet Secretary, you mentioned funding there. It does concern me that the Welsh Government isn't pressing the UK Government or Keir Starmer on fair funding for Wales enough about this to help to rectify this issue, which lets our children and our young people down. So, what steps, please, would you take urgently to address that?

Again, can I thank the Member for her question on this subject? Twenty per cent of young people, I believe, in parts of Wales are unable to get to their job interviews because they don't have access to public transport or because public transport is too expensive. So, there is a huge social injustice in the system that operates today, which is why we're so determined to pursue the bus Bill by the end of this parliamentary term. The review that took place is aimed to provide us with something of a bridge to the point where franchising takes place. And the key point with franchising, insofar as young people are concerned in education, is that it will enable us to utilise all services for the purposes of getting young people to school; it will enable us to blend regular passenger services better with school transport. I should just say that the problem isn't just with affordability, in terms of the bridging plans. It's also about availability of bus drivers and buses, which is a major challenge. And in some parts of Wales, there have been challenges in recruitment to the sector. It's one of the reasons, actually, why we established the diversity in public transport board, because we recognised the need to increase the number of people who were training not just as bus drivers, but also in the rail industry, and we needed to make sure that we had a more diverse workforce. So, that work is ongoing, but it's not just down to the actual funding for the service; it's also about the availability of buses and drivers as well. 

Thank you again for that. Now, when it comes to the bus Bill, I welcome what you've said, certainly about the need to bridge that gap. Now, before that bridge is completely built, when those building blocks are still on the side, what can we do to make sure that the cohort at the moment that is missing out on free school transport between now and then don't get let down? And when we do have bus franchising, do you agree with me that we should, actually, go further and introduce a free young person's bus pass? Because I know that Scotland have introduced this in the last few years—free bus travel for five to 21-year-olds. The resulting extra patronage actually allowed some bus companies to increase service provision. So, actually, although there might be upfront investment, it could actually pay dividends and help to free up more money for extra services across the board. So, is a free young person's bus pass something that you are looking at already? And, if not, would commit you to start looking now at the potential for introducing that in Wales when the bus Bill is implemented, please? 

I'm very interested in this sort of initiative and the potential to go even further as well, actually. In some parts of Europe, you have free bus transport, which is actually paid for through the equivalent of our council tax. So, there are alternative and additional ways of raising revenue to improve not just the number of services that operate, but also improve accessibility by removing the cost to those who can least afford to pay.

So, with franchising, it will offer up that opportunity to create not just one network, with one timetable, with one ticket, but to introduce a far fairer fare regime on rail and on buses. So, I am keen to learn from other places, because there are some excellent examples across Europe and further afield, and within the United Kingdom, and I'm very, very keen to learn from any experiences that Members in this Chamber may have.

The Welsh Government has invested £800 million in new trains, which are starting to operate across Wales. As the new trains have entered service, reliability and performance have improved. We'll continue to build on this progress, as well as better aligning our timetables with changing post-COVID travel patterns of our passengers.

Thank you for that response.

Cabinet Secretary, you have previously acknowledged the need to drive up patronage on the Heart of Wales line, and yet we are seeing a perpetuating cycle of declining ridership if services become increasingly impractical and unappealing. Local stakeholders, such as the Heart of Wales Line Travellers' Association, have criticised the proposed new timetable from Transport for Wales, stating that it will make it nearly impossible for individuals to commute or have reasonable travel times. With just three tourist-friendly weekday trains, the timetable also fails to capitalise on the line's significant potential for attracting visitors and promoting sustainable tourism. In its consultation, the association highlights two consultant reports that have found the need for at least one train every two hours for the line to operate optimally. Therefore, Cabinet Secretary, what discussions have you had with Transport for Wales to procure new, modern trains and address reliability issues to revitalise the Heart of Wales line? Diolch yn fawr iawn.   

Well, can I thank Jane Dodds for her supplementary question? The line is one of the most stunning anywhere in the United Kingdom. The Member is right that it's not just important for people who have to commute to and from their communities in mid Wales. It's also vitally important for the tourism economy in mid Wales as well. I'm hoping, following discussions with Network Rail, to be able to share some exciting news regarding the tourism potential of that line in the not-too-distant future.

I was on the line as well—I was on a rail service—just this week, and I met with the passenger group referred to by the Member, brilliant people who shared with me their disappointment at the reduction in the service. Unfortunately, the savings of £1 million to £1.5 million were resulting as a consequence of removing one of those daily services, but that daily service only averaged six passengers. But I do recognise that its loss is something that has been much regretted by people in the area. So, I have asked Transport for Wales to work with passenger user groups and with the local authority to discuss how the situation could be rectified through the use of high-quality bus service options in the short term, at the very least. I'd be very pleased to meet with Transport for Wales, alongside the Member, to ensure that her constituents are not being disadvantaged. 

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary, for your answer to Jane Dodds. Back on 24 April, I raised concerns with you about the cuts to the Heart of Wales line. You said then that you take incredibly seriously the needs of the people who live in rural Wales. You also went on to say that you would meet with residents and elected Members over this. Since our discussion on 24 April, I haven't had an opportunity to meet with you to discuss these challenges. Additionally, I haven't heard of any meetings that you've had with direct constituents regarding these cuts. So, I'm interested to know what steps have been taken by you to address the concerns that have been raised by people on the reduced services on the Heart of Wales line. And can you actually confirm today whether you do take this issue seriously, or is this actually just some warm words and PR spin from the Government? Because the people who live in my constituency want to see these services reintroduced, and they don't just need warm words from the Welsh Government; they actually need action. 

Can I thank James Evans for his question and say that I very much regret that we haven't had an opportunity to meet to discuss this in person ourselves? But I have met with residents and, as I mentioned to Jane Dodds, I've met with the user group just last week. There was an event that took place on the Heart of Wales line. I met with many organisations, including TfW, including rail managers and Network Rail. This issue was raised by a number of people, and so I've spoken with Transport for Wales about the need to address the concerns that were raised and the need to provide high-quality bus services, as I said to Jane Dodds, in the short term, at the very least. But I would still welcome an opportunity to speak about this matter with James Evans in person.

The Cabinet Secretary will—. I will just pause for a second. The Cabinet Secretary will be aware that there's been a consultation on a change of timetable for the Cambrian railway from Machynlleth to Pwllheli. These proposed changes have caused many concerns for people on the Meirionnydd coast—people who, if these changes are introduced, won't be able to get to their places of work or their education establishment. And what's a further insult is that the recommendations recommend increasing the number of services during the summer season, in order to serve more tourists, but reduce the service outside the visitor season, which is damaging to the opportunities of local people to access work, education, shopping, and so on. So, I want an assurance from you—whilst I am aware and appreciate that that was a consultation—that the recommendations in that consultation will not be implemented, and that you will listen to the voice of people living in the area and who are reliant on that train service to access work and education, and will develop a timetable that suits the needs of the people of the Meirionnydd coast.

Can I thank Mabon for his question and assure him that Transport for Wales will consider and take account of the consultation responses over the planned timetable changes, and any changes that might take place in the future as well? I would agree that the removal of two services between Machynlleth and Pwllheli, one in each direction, of course, is unfortunate, but is, again, as with the Heart of Wales service, driven by very low demand indeed. They have an average of four to five passengers, and therefore a very significant subsidy rate. And I know that Members in this Chamber have often called for equivalent subsidies to be applied to rail and bus services, but the problem with that is that subsidies for rail services are always going to be significantly higher.

Now, the question is: at what point do you deem a service to be unsustainable? And with only four to five passengers, this service was deemed to be unsustainable by Transport for Wales in the current financial environment. Now, we do hope that finances will improve. We also hope that people will change travel behaviours in a post-COVID context, as we see more people using transport to get to and from the office, rather than working from home, and to and from regional hubs. But I can assure the Member that there was a crucial element to the decision that was made by Transport for Wales, which is that the removed services do not or are not used by pupils for the schools at Harlech and Tywyn. That's one benefit of them having listened already, but I can guarantee the Member that TfW will take account of all consultation responses that have been received.

We continue to provide valuable core grant funding to the Community Transport Association to enable them to provide comprehensive support for the community transport sector across the country. We also encourage local authorities to allocate some of the bus funding that we award to them, to support local community transport initiatives.

Community transport organisations in my constituency have been providing an excellent service to those communities that could be underserved by major and traditional bus operators. Dolen Teifi, for example, serves many in Ceredigion and Carmarthenshire, and they're an excellent example of an organisation that fills some of the gaps in our public transport system at the moment. The launch of Bws Bach y Wlad was also news to be welcomed recently. Many of these organisations are on a very small scale and operate out of community hubs and centres, such as the one in Ystradowen, which provides a vital a service and, in many cases, they are saviours for local people. With the recent news that First Cymru is reducing its timetable on some of the major routes in my constituency, what additional support can the Welsh Government provide to these community transport organisations, so that they can grow and fill the gaps left by the traditional operators?

Adam Price makes a number of vitally important points in his question regarding social justice—that far too many people would be left without access to work, to services, were it not for community transport services in rural areas. Each year, around 0.75 million people rely on community transport services across Wales. It's a staggering number, and we now have a network of 110 community transport organisations that are working actively in their communities across Wales. 

For several years, we've provided core grant funding of just under £0.25 million to the Community Transport Association to support their activities in Wales, and in turn that has helped to lever in £2 million or more of additional investment to support community transport in Wales. However, I am due to meet with the Welsh team of the CTA in the next few weeks, to see what we can further do to strengthen our support for this key sector. And, again, there's a lot to be said for strengthening it as part of the bridge through to franchising, because once we're able to franchise bus services, we'll be able to better integrate the timetables of both the commercial and conventional bus services with community-based transport. 

I'm pleased to see a question tabled on community transport because it gives me the opportunity to talk about the very successful scheme that operates in Bishopston in Swansea, and I'm very keen to pay tribute to the local councillor there, Lyndon Jones, who's been very integral in the setting up of that community transport scheme. Now, that scheme has been so popular, it's so successful, it's such a lifeline for people in Bishopston, that they want to see that network expand, and neighbouring villages and settlements also want to see the continuation of that scheme. But the organisations tell me that they really struggle with the recruitment of bus drivers, and that is a real, real challenge for them. So, what can the Welsh Government do proactively to ensure that more bus drivers are recruited, so that we can enhance this scheme?

I thank Tom Giffard and agree with him that there is real pressure in the sector in parts of Wales, and in response to questions earlier from Delyth Jewell, I highlighted some of the work that we've been doing to address this. We don't just want to address the issues around recruitment; we want to make sure that we also use the solutions to the recruitment dilemmas at the moment to drive diversity within the sector, because it is still very much a male-dominated sector, and we want to make sure that it is more diverse. So, we are working with Transport for Wales and operators to determine what needs to be done to recruit more, to train more, and to make sure that the sector is more diverse.

Our national transport delivery plan sets out the projects and programmes that will improve public transport services in South Wales West. We are providing substantial and continued support through our transport grants, and also Transport for Wales are able to provide assistance wherever and whenever required.

Diolch, Cabinet Secretary. I was pleased to see proposals for a slight increase in service provision along some railway stations across South Wales West. However, concerns have been raised with me that, for some stations, the level of service being proposed falls short of what was previously promised. Stations that make up the Swanline service, such as Llansamlet, Skewen, Briton Ferry, Baglan, Pyle and Pencoed, will be served every two hours for much of the day. The previous commitment was for an hourly service to be provided. I don't think that a service once every two hours on such a well-used route is good enough, really, for my constituents. It won't encourage people to use public transport over cars, and it will contribute, of course, to failing to meet our carbon emission targets. So, do you think a service once every two hours is good enough, considering that some Valleys communities towards the east are now looking at getting four trains an hour? Do you agree that this feels inequitable for residents of the region that I represent?

Can I thank Sioned Williams for her question and say that we wish to transform public transport to drive up the number of services that people use, to integrate the bus and the rail network, to make sure that we have one timetable, one ticketing regime? And we'll do that in part through bus franchising, but also through rolling out more railway trains, and that's why the order of £800 million for rolling stock is just so important.

Now, in regard to the programmes that are not able to be delivered, there is a variety of reasons, and it's not just down to cost in these highly pressured times. There are also reasons relating to infrastructure works that need to be carried out by Network Rail for which we are not responsible, which have curtailed our plans, but I recognise that there's a variety of reasons across Wales. And so, I'll provide a comprehensive list to Members regarding why it is that certain services have not been introduced as planned.   

Cabinet Secretary, if we are to encourage modal shift, we need a fast, reliable and truly integrated public transport network. A Swansea bay metro, which is linked to the south Wales metro and provides a regular, reliable service, is vital. As it stands, people can't depend on the train or bus network to travel to major events across the region. Cabinet Secretary, when can the people of my region of South Wales West expect fast, reliable and cheap trains and buses?   

Can I thank Altaf Hussain for his question, and say that there are some services that Welsh Government is not responsible for at all and which we cannot influence, unfortunately? They include the services operated by Great Western Railway. That's a responsibility that is retained by the Department for Transport. In terms of what we are responsible for, the Member will be aware that punctuality has improved quite considerably on Transport for Wales services, including in his region.

Also, together with Transport for Wales, local authorities are working on regional transport plans across Wales, including in that metro area, co-designing services and infrastructure works that will be required to deliver far better transport outcomes. The transport plans, I hope, will be completed and published this time next year, and from that we'll be able to then roll out one integrated public transport system, utilising the bus Bill.

For most of my constituents, public transport means buses. It is important that buses are organised so that through travel is possible without lengthy waits. I want to highlight the need for evening bus services. Does the Minister agree that we need an integrated transport system where buses are scheduled to meet with trains? And again I will ask for Landore station to be reopened to reduce traffic on match days, and reduce city centre traffic.

Can I thank Mike Hedges for his question? He's absolutely right: we've got a fragmented network at the moment, one that is poorly integrated. As I've mentioned on numerous occasions this afternoon, our ambition is to have one network with one timetable and one ticketing system across rail and bus services in Wales. If we can accomplish that by 2027, we'll be the first place in the United Kingdom to have done that on such scale. It will also enable us to introduce far fairer fare regimes, as I've mentioned on a number of occasions as well. In the meanwhile, we're determined to look at how we can improve bus services in the short term; I've mentioned, again, on a number of occasions the need for a bridge to franchising. Transport for Wales is working with operators on how we can deliver that bridge.

I would also agree that the new station at Landore could be a magnificent addition. Transport for Wales are developing plans for up to seven new stations in the Swansea bay area, including at Landore, and that work will result in a preferred solution this summer. But, ultimately, we're going to be relying again on the UK Government, who are responsible for rail infrastructure, to provide the funding for the necessary works to take place. 

Of course. We are currently upgrading the A40 between Llanddewi Velfrey and Redstone Cross, and our current list of strategic network improvements is contained within the national transport delivery plan. We'll continue to monitor sections of the network that experience congestion and identify solutions aligned with the Wales transport strategy, where required.

Thank you for that response, Cabinet Secretary. You'll be aware of the Newgale coastal adaptation scheme in my constituency, given that the Welsh Government has provided funding for feasibility studies to take place. I appreciate that this potential project is the responsibility of the local authority, and it's quite clear that Pembrokeshire County Council's proposals for the road would cost millions of pounds to the taxpayer, but now the local community has put together an alternative plan that could save lots of money. So, given the significant savings that could be made, as well as the positive environmental benefits, I believe it's really important that the Welsh Government hears the community's proposals. Will the Cabinet Secretary agree to meet with me to discuss these plans further, given that the Welsh Government has already provided funding for feasibility studies to take place?

I'd very much like to thank Paul Davies for the question and the invitation—this sounds intriguing. If we can deliver the outcomes at less cost, that would be fabulous. I'm very interested in what he may be able to share with us. So, yes, absolutely, I'll certainly meet with the Member and with the community.

Finally, question 8, Delyth Jewell.

The provision of good-quality local bus services remains at the core of our vision to create a fully sustainable and integrated public transport system for South Wales East. As well as providing better services, we are working hard to modernise the bus fleet and passenger infrastructure right across the region.

Diolch. The 26 bus run by Stagecoach used to link Caerphilly and Cardiff via Nantgarw, but the route has been changed to run over Caerphilly mountain, replacing what was the inadequate 86 Heath hospital route. Last month, a constituent tried to catch the bus, but it was 20 minutes late and the information at the bus stop was non-existent. There were also no paper timetables available on the bus when it did turn up, as there used to be. I've asked Stagecoach about this, and changes to this route were made, I understand, because it wasn't a particularly profitable service. But how could passengers know about this change when the timetables hadn't been updated? I'm not just asking about this one particular route, Cabinet Secretary, but the point is that many people rely on buses to get to appointments, they need to know when their bus will turn up and where it's going to take them. So, would you raise this, please, with bus companies, so that when changes are made, information is accessible to passengers, not just on a website or an app, but at bus stops themselves as well?

Can I thank Delyth Jewell for this question? On the points that she raises, actually, we've found, through our research, that the primary reason people choose not to use bus services is because they fear that they're not going to be on time or they're going to be cancelled. That's more important, apparently, than the price of the ticket. And so, reliable and punctual services are vitally important, and so too is the provision of information. Many of us might use an app, but lots of us don't, and having information—live information, ideally—at bus stops is hugely important. We're thinking about this as we move forward with the bus Bill—who will take responsibility for the provision of information at bus stops, who will take responsibility for the bus stops as well. There's a lot of thought being given to how we can improve this in the longer term. In the short term, I will certainly meet with bus operators, I'll raise it with local authorities and Transport for Wales as well, because if people don't know when buses are going to turn up, they're simply not going to turn up themselves at a bus stop.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary.

The next item is questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Culture and Social Justice. The first question is from Buffy Williams.

The Welsh Government has maintained capital funding for Sport Wales at £8 million in 2024-25. The artificial turf pitch collaboration group and the court collaboration group determine successful projects following an application process.

Thanks to Cameron Winnett and Keiron Assiratti, Rhondda has a growing number of rugby players reaching regional and international level. Last weekend, both Ferndale and Wattstown won their mid district finals respectively. Our women's and girls teams are also going from strength to strength, with hundreds of girls training with the Rhondda Miners, Penygraig and Treorchy. With the volume of rugby being played and at such a high standard, we're desperate in the Rhondda for a World Rugby-accredited 3G pitch with a shock pad. Meetings have been taking place recently, with a unique site identified at Coleg y Cymoedd that is already home to excellent training and playing facilities. It also has a library that can be utilised by players, parents and spectators to undertake qualifications, awareness-raising sessions and homework clubs. Partners are working tirelessly to make this a reality, but there is currently a shortfall in funding. I understand that front-line services must be protected during the cost-of-living crisis, but is the Cabinet Secretary aware of any potential funding opportunities for this site? Will she ensure the collaboration unit's budget is protected in the future? And does she agree with me that community sport can play a key role in reaching social justice?

Thank you. I absolutely agree with you on that last point, and that's why I'm so pleased that culture, which obviously includes sport, and social justice have been put together in one portfolio, because I absolutely agree with you that it does play a key role. I'm very happy to congratulate both Ferndale RFC and Wattstown RFC on their recent achievements. It's another sport, but yesterday I met with the Football Association of Wales and we were talking about Wattstown from a football perspective, so clearly there's a lot going on in your constituency.

I think it's really good to hear about the very positive strides that have been taken around women and girls playing rugby. I would like that to continue very much at every level, but certainly at a community level. Investing in sporting facilities is a key commitment of ours in our programme for government. Whilst we do have budget pressures, of course, we did maintain the budget, as I said in my original answer to you, at £8 million for capital for Sport Wales. They are responsible for setting their own internal budgets, and I know they've allocated £1 million to the artificial turf pitch collaboration group and £0.5 million to the court collaboration group for this financial year.

You mentioned Coleg y Cymoedd. The provision of a 3G facility in the Rhondda, which is a priority for the WRU, has been identified as a potential solution for this. I understand the application wasn't ready to be submitted within the current year's deadline—that's now passed—but I think it's really important that all parties come together now to work towards submitting the application for the project in the next financial year.

Cabinet Secretary, I recently visited the Battle Back Centre with the cross-party group on the armed forces. That centre does fantastic work supporting veterans in their recovery journey. Since the centre opened, it has helped 5,500 wounded, injured and sick service personnel with their recovery journey due to sport and recreation. That's how they actually get people back to be recovered to full fitness. They also do a lot of work with co-ordinating the Invictus Games, and I'm pleased to say that there's a lot of interest from serving Welsh personnel in entering the Invictus Games—something that's really, really positive. During our visit, we discussed the possibility of launching an accreditation scheme for sports clubs to become armed forces and veterans friendly. This scheme would encourage clubs to create a welcome and supportive collaborative environment for our veterans in our community. Cabinet Secretary, given your commitment to our armed forces and to sport, would you be willing to meet with me, Darren Millar and the Battle Back Centre to see how we can get this accreditation scheme off the ground to really make that welcoming environment for our service personnel in our sports clubs across Wales?

Thank you. Yes, I'd certainly be very happy to meet with you to discuss. We do have some armed forces-specific sport schemes. As you know, we've got our free swimming scheme, for instance; that continues to provide local authorities with the funding to enable our veterans to have free access, and serving members of the armed forces as well. I think that scheme has really grown in popularity over the years, and I know that other sports are also increasing their specific offers to the armed forces and veterans community. I recently met with Tennis Wales, and they were talking about their offers as well. There's also the Blue Light Cycling Club. But you mentioned something very specific, and I'm very happy to look at innovative ways in which we can help both our armed forces and our veterans communities. 

Museum development support in Wales is provided directly by the Welsh Government. This support includes a workforce development programme, a capital grant fund and revenue grants delivered through the Federation of Museums and Art Galleries of Wales. All accredited local and independent museums in Aberconwy can benefit from this support.

Thank you. I rise today to seek some support and funding opportunity for Llandudno Museum & Gallery, a museum that was formed in 1925 by Francis Edouard Chardon. They host school workshops and are really trying to make this a key all-weather attraction in north Wales. They hold over 9,000 artifacts and they also do a lot of educational programmes on natural history, geology, fine art, social history and military history. As one of your own party colleagues, Alun Davies, has said, the politics of devolution has seen this Government deliberately take a decision to deprioritise culture funding in terms of its overall budget—not just because of the crisis today or yesterday, but over the period of devolved self-government. We've seen cuts in the Welsh Government's 2024-25 budget pushing arts funding down the pecking order once again. The cutting away of these institutions that hold the history of Wales is harming centres across the country such as Llandudno Museum. They need extra funding now. They're seeing higher bills, they need staff, and they need all that just to keep the doors open. What plans do you have in place? Do you know of any grant funding that maybe they're not accessing at the moment? I know you've been to it, and I know that's going to come in your response. It is fantastic and the thought of it closing its doors would horrify the people of Aberconwy, but also our visitors who rely on this as a tourism destination.

I wasn't going to say, 'I visited', but, as you say, I have. I'm trying to remember if it was in 2021 or—. I think it was 2021 I visited. I remember I had to wear a face covering, so it was around that time. And I'm ashamed of say it was the first time I visited it. When you think I come from just along the coast, it was actually the first time I'd visited it.

I know Welsh Government has provided funding to the Llandudno Museum via its grants programme, administered by the Federation of Museums and Art Galleries of Wales, as I referred to in my original answer. I think they've also received funding for bespoke events also, so I'm not aware of any funding that they haven't accessed. But I fully appreciate the seriousness of the situation our arts and culture sector are currently facing.

Questions now from the party spokespeople. Welsh Conservatives spokesperson, Laura Anne Jones.

Diolch, Llywydd. For those who witnessed the wonderful spectacle on the steps of the Senedd yesterday by the Welsh National Opera, the orchestra and the chorus, performing the Easter Hymn, conducted by Maestro Carlo Rizzi, I think it's plain to see why you need to do all that you can, Cabinet Secretary, to protect this world-class institution.

Cabinet Secretary, over the past few weeks, various Members, including myself, Rhianon Passmore from your own benches, and many Members across this Chamber, have been relaying their concern and outrage about the cuts to the Welsh National Opera. The crisis, of course, threatens the future of our flagship arts organisation and the only full-time opera company here in Wales. The Welsh National Opera is a jewel in Wales’s crown. It is the largest arts employer, created in the 1940s by a group of doctors, miners and teachers who wished to build a performing ensemble that would live up to our reputation as the land of song.

The Welsh National Opera currently stands on a precipice, having received cuts from both the arts councils of Wales and England that amount to 25 per cent of its yearly budget. This is clearly untenable. Unless further financial help can be found, WNO is going to be forced to make the orchestra and chorus—the beating heart of their company—part-time. It's already scaling back, as you know, Cabinet Secretary, its touring venues, and has already offered voluntary redundancy to the rest of its company. This will result in a vital loss of skills across the organisation. You will, of course, be aware—

I think the Cabinet Secretary is aware by now. Can you come to your question, please? I've been very generous.

Diolch, Llywydd. You'll, of course, be aware of the nearly 10,000-strong petition now to protect the WNO, and so I just wanted to ask you what recent discussions you have had with the UK Government regarding the Welsh National Opera. Can you today ease the current fears and assure us that you'll do everything that you can to ensure the future of the WNO?

Very unusually, I disagree with very little of what Laura Anne Jones has said. Have we ever heard a protest like that on the Senedd steps? I don't think so. It was truly incredible. I fully appreciate the concerns around the Welsh National Opera. I met with them yesterday to discuss what they’re doing to mitigate the impact of the funding cuts. When I came into this portfolio, I found it very unusual to have an organisation funded by the Arts Council of Wales and Arts Council England. I was very interested in how that set-up had come about.

I personally believe the WNO is probably one of our most global export successes. I was very fortunate to see them in Dubai when I was there for Gulfood in the previous portfolio, and the work they did with Welsh people and Welsh schoolchildren out in Dubai. There are so many aspects of the WNO. I have attended an inter-ministerial group on culture and sport with Lucy Frazer, Angus Robertson and the Northern Ireland Minister to discuss what we can do around this. I have committed to do all I can to see if there is anything further we can do in this financial year.

I won't repeat the difficulties that the Government is facing with our budget, but, clearly, I think it's fair to say that the cut that came from Arts Council England came overnight. It was very, very significant, and I think it was a complete shock. So, I do need to probably have a further discussion. Whilst I appreciate that both Arts Council England and the Arts Council of Wales are arm's-length bodies from the Government, and we wouldn't interfere with their funding decisions, I think there is a need now to have that discussion directly with Arts Council England, just so that I can understand this very unique way of funding an organisation.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. It's great to hear that you will look into that and that you will work further to understand that and hopefully come to a positive conclusion along with people across the border.

I want to say that, as well as, of course, as you've mentioned, the Welsh National Opera being world-renowned far and wide across our globe, they also do an awful lot of work within our community and on the ground. And there are concerns that the Wellness with WNO programme will be in jeopardy following these cuts as well—a programme that was extended in 2003 because of its recognised results, like improvements in mental health, improvements in confidence, positive emotions and feelings and suppressing anxiety, depression and panic for those who are on that programme. This is obviously something that I don't think any of us would want to see not continue, and we want to see it protected. So, in that vein, even though the Arts Council of Wales is arm's length, as you said earlier, from the Welsh Government and the WNO, will you reassure us today, Cabinet Secretary, that you will do all that you can to protect this renowned, now flagship service, that is Wellness with WNO, and protect its future? Thank you.

So, I don't think you need to take my word for it. The WNO—one of the people who I met with yesterday, their finance director, Stephanie, was at great pains to tell me of all the work that they're doing to support that service, because they absolutely recognise the importance of it. I have committed to go and visit somewhere where I can see this service being undertaken, probably in the summer recess, because I think it's very important, as you say, that we don't just focus on their amazing productions. It is about all the other work: I mentioned the education work that they do; you now mentioned the work that they do within the health sphere. So, I think they themselves want to protect it. But my commitment to them yesterday—I met with the chair and their interim chief executive—was to do all that I can to help them get through this very difficult period.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. Well, it's good to hear that, but, of course, we need more than words—we need urgent action now with all that is at risk, which we have both outlined today. Without our arts and culture, we are nothing as a nation; without our arts and culture, we lose so much of our unique history here in Wales and all that makes us proudly Welsh. Without our art and culture, Wales loses its very best talent and we are the poorer for it.

We have a long-standing history of our arts enriching our culture, boosting our economy and making Wales a better place in which to live, perform and to visit. Now is not the time, obviously, to give up on the sector—now's the time to double down, as you've just said, and ensure that future generations get to enjoy the richness that all of our arts have to offer and make sure that it's for everyone, not just those who can afford it—those with money.

What the sector is crying out for is a structure and a plan in place now to ensure that funding cuts and threats like this will not happen in the future, because once it's gone, it's gone. So, Cabinet Secretary, I ask you again: can you ease current fears and ensure that long-term funding plans will now be in place with the Arts Council of Wales, through capital funding, to secure everything that we love dearly here in Wales?

Well, the Member will appreciate that I can't offer any long-term surety, because we don't know what our budget will be. We assume we're going to get another multi-year settlement, but we don't know. So, unfortunately, I can't offer the assurance. What I can offer is an assurance that I will work with the sector very closely.

You may be aware that we're just about to launch our priorities for culture consultation. I've been questioned as to why we should go ahead with that, and when I came into the portfolio, I had been working with Siân Gwenllian on that, as part of the co-operation agreement, but I did ask to have a little—not pause, but just to make sure that this was the right time. And having looked at the very exciting consultation document that we will be launching, I do think it's the right time, because one of our—. Well, we've got three priorities and the first one absolutely fits in with your point about it not just being for people who can afford it—it's about that accessibility for everybody. The second priority within the consultation will be us as a nation of culture, and the third will be to make the sector sustainable and resilient. And the point that you make about losing talent is very pertinent, because we don't want our singers and musicians, for instance, to go elsewhere—we want to keep them here in Wales.

So, what I'm trying to look at is—. The budgets aren't going to increase significantly in the very near future, but we need to look at ways of working, we need to look at ways we work with our partners, and perhaps be a little bit more creative in our thinking. So, I'm absolutely committed to that.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Heledd Fychan.

Thank you, Llywydd. May I warmly welcome the comments that you've just made in response to Laura Anne Jones? We were all enchanted yesterday outside of the Senedd, and I think we all sometimes need to be reminded of the importance of those things, in terms of our health and our mental health too. They inspire people in very different ways, as was clear from the audience there yesterday. But clearly, last week, we heard also that the Royal Welsh College of Music and Drama were looking to cut their music lessons and acting lessons for children and young people, meaning that this will be the only college of music and drama in the UK without a youth department. At the weekend, the BBC published an article quoting Michael Sheen, who has currently been portraying Aneurin Bevan in the production Nye. He described the cuts in the culture sphere as

'an attack on culture in Wales'.

What's your assessment of the impact of cuts on our cultural and arts sectors in Wales, and do you understand and share the concerns of people like Michael Sheen?

Of course I recognise the concerns. You will have heard my answers to Laura Anne Jones about looking to see what I can do to support the sector. And I do think it's absolutely the right time to launch the consultation, and we will be doing that this week. Because I think it's really important that we get the responses to the consultation, to see how we can support it; apart from funding, what else we can do. And as I say, I don't underestimate the seriousness. It's arts and culture—you heard me say previously I've always thought that culture is the great redeemer of life, and it does have a bearing on our health, and it does have a bearing on our well-being. So, I will continue to work closely—. I will continue to work closely with the Arts Council of Wales, particularly, to see what—. They've had the investment review, for instance. I think it's really important that we bring all the pieces together.

Thank you for that response. You'll appreciate that a number of comments have been made that have been specifically critical of the Welsh Government's approach to culture and the arts to date. The Welsh writer of the play Nye, Tim Price, was vocal in his concern, stating

'Welsh theatre is in crisis with the cuts, still waiting for a theatre strategy from Arts Council Wales.'

And he went on to say:

'I think the Welsh Government doesn’t value arts in the same way that the other nations and regions and I think that’s going to have a huge impact on wellbeing and on the economy.'

I must say that, since you've been in post, I have appreciated the change in tone, and I am certain that you do get it, as the Cabinet Secretary. But can I ask, are you a lone voice in Government, or do you see a much-needed shift from your colleagues, to not only secure the future of these much-loved institutions but to support them in maximising their impact? You talked previously of finding out about Amgueddfa Cymru's work in terms of education and so on. We know that they do contribute, in terms of the contribution they make, in terms of health and social justice. So, how do we secure that the investment just doesn't come from the portfolio in terms of culture, but across Government?

No, I'm not a lone voice at all. I had a discussion with the Cabinet Secretary for Economy, Energy and Welsh Language around the export value of the WNO. He absolutely fully appreciates that. I've had a discussion with the Cabinet Secretary for Education around Amgueddfa Cymru, as you just referred to. I mentioned the well-being service that the WNO are doing. So, I absolutely am not a lone voice, and I really want to reassure you about that. Nobody wants to make budget cuts, not anybody; none of us come into politics to make budget cuts, but we did face some really significant cuts. So, I really want to reassure everybody that the Welsh Government recognises how important the culture sector, our sports sector, our arts sectors are to all of us.

You mentioned in an earlier answer about the Royal Welsh College of Music and Drama. I know, again, that that's caused another layer of apprehension for people, and I really appreciate that that could have an impact on the provision of music, particularly for our young people. So, whilst that's an autonomous body, it's just another layer, really, and another area of concern.

Thank you very much. Clearly, there is a link between all of these cuts in terms of the broader sector. And, clearly, the culture strategy has been long awaited, but you will be aware too that we had agreed that the resources available should go to mitigating the most recent cuts.

So, one of the things I would like to ask you is: given the financial situation and the level of cuts across Wales—and not just from Welsh Government—being so complex, has there been an impact assessment commissioned in terms of what the situation actually is for culture and the arts in Wales at the moment? And if so, will you commit to share that with us as Members of the Senedd? But if there is no such assessment, will you commit to commissioning an impact assessment, so that the final culture strategy is one that will ensure the future of this sector and the workforce? Because there's always a risk that we will ask people to deliver against the strategy, but perhaps they won't be there anymore, and some of the services that we now take for granted won't exist any longer. So, we need to understand what the situation is and what the situation will be, in order for that strategy to be successful.

Diolch. I think it was really important that we launched the consultation. As I say, we're doing that this week, and I really pay tribute to the work that Siân Gwenllian has done with us, and Plaid Cymru, as part of the co-operation agreement. And as you say, the funding that I think had been set aside towards an implementation plan, following the consultation responses, was put to mitigate job losses. And I think that was absolutely the right thing to do. We needed to protect people's livelihoods.

So, I think the best thing now is to get the consultation out there. I've asked for an extended consultation, because as it's over the summer, I always find that you don't get the responses back quite so quickly. So, it's really important—so I've extended it a little bit, only a couple of weeks—to get those responses back, and then we need to bring forward an implementation plan. And at that time, I think we need to make sure there is funding available for the implementation plan.

As far as I know, no impact assessment has been looked into as yet, but it's certainly something I'm happy to consider. 

Diolch. Welsh Government has been working with a range of academics and practitioners with experience in probation to advise on the future of probation services in Wales. The Wales Centre for Public Policy was commissioned to take forward specific research to outline options for devolution to Wales.

I thank the Cabinet Secretary for that answer. I recently attended the annual Welsh criminology conference in Gregynog and was very heartened to see both the sense of excitement at further devolution that may well come to this Senedd, and the practical sense of grappling with the technical and administrative challenges that devolution will bring.

So, does the Cabinet Secretary agree with me that the time has come to move on from making the case for the devolution of youth justice and probation, and instead for the focus to be on the practical preparation for this Senedd taking on those responsibilities in what, if we are to place any credence on today's speculation, may be only a few weeks away?

Thank you. I certainly do agree that the case is made for devolution. We've had a variety of commissions. We've had the Thomas commission. We've had the Brown commission, and, most recently, we had, obviously, the commission that was chaired by Laura McAllister and Rowan Williams. And I think it is the time to move on now from arguing for the case to doing the preparatory work. 

We've got an ambitious work programme in place to develop our understanding of how devolution might work in the areas most likely to be taken forward, and that includes probation. And we've also commissioned the Wales Centre for Public Policy, who are taking work forward to identify potential options for probation devolution, learning from the many experts we have around the UK, and also across Europe. That work is now drawing to a close. I understand we should be getting some feedback on those findings at the end of this month, and, of course, I should thank you for your role as the former First Minister for making sure we have that significant programme of work established. 

Heaven forbid that there should be any further devolution when one considers that, after 26 years, you've failed in health, transport, education, culture, arts, social care, the economy, and I could go on. I believe that the UK Conservative Government has made it very clear that it has no plans to devolve the probation service to Wales in the near future. I think that is a wise decision. Why would we want more power devolved when the Welsh Government has shown over 26 years such poor judgment when it comes to law and order and many other matters? How could we trust this Government to implement, manage and maintain a probation service when it is being led by somebody who clearly thinks that taking money for their campaign from somebody who is polluting in the way they are—? That is unacceptable. Does the Cabinet Secretary not agree with me, at a time when the Senedd is going through its biggest transformation in history, and when its own leader displays such poor levels of judgment, that powers of policing, probation and justice are certainly best left in the wise hands of a United Kingdom Conservative Government?

I'm sure the Member won't be surprised that I do not agree with her, and that's why we need a UK Labour Government as soon as possible.

Our assessment of the effects of rising costs in Wales, including for disabled people, has been informed by the voices of people affected and through consideration by our Cabinet sub-committee. Using the levers we have, during 2022-25, we have provided targeted financial support worth almost £5 billion.

Listening to the voices of those who are being affected, okay. Well, the Trussell Trust network in Wales distributed nearly 190,000 emergency food parcels in the 12 months from April last year. That's the highest amount of packages they've ever had to supply. In that period, 73 per cent of those people referred to foodbanks were disabled people, which is more than double, actually, the proportion of the population who are disabled people. Now, that's clearly a concerning issue. Indeed, research by Scope has highlighted that the cost of living is higher for people with disabilities, with disabled households spending on average £625 more each year when compared with non-disabled households. Considering this, do you agree that the proposals to increase the cap on adult non-residential social care in Wales are ill-advised and do you acknowledge that this will actually plunge disabled people even deeper into financial trouble?

This morning, I co-chaired my first disability rights taskforce, and it was a very interesting meeting, to hear from the working group's streams that had been set up by my predecessor, Jane Hutt. This was the tenth meeting of the disability rights taskforce. What came over to me was the detrimental effect of so many things on disabled people because of the additional expenses they incur and the significant barriers they face. As a Government, you will know we've been working with disabled people to make sure they receive everything that they should do, and we also have the Welsh benefits charter, which I look forward to taking forward.

Cabinet Secretary, as Llyr has highlighted, the cost-of-living crisis has had a dramatic impact on many disabled people. Thankfully, inflation is now under control, and the International Monetary Fund and the Bank of England have upgraded the UK growth prospects once again. Sadly, decisions such as increasing the charge for non-residential care are certainly creating fear amongst many disabled people and leaving them with a choice between food or care. Cabinet Secretary, will you please urge colleagues in the Welsh Government to abandon the proposed increase in charges, which, according to Disability Wales, will do little to address shortfalls in local authority budgets and could lead to people opting out of social care?

I think it's very important that people don't opt out of services that they need, and this is something I will certainly be happy to discuss with my colleague.

Welsh Government funding for the arts is channelled through the Arts Council of Wales. I met with the chair and chief executive of ACW last month to discuss the current position of the arts sectors in Wales, including the music sector. Under the arm's-length principle, the Welsh Government does not intervene in ACW's funding decisions. I also met with the WNO yesterday.

Great. I think, Laura Anne Jones and Heledd Fychan have rather stolen my thunder a little bit in their previous question time. I fully support the principles that they were asking you about as to the Welsh National Opera. It was magnificent yesterday, and one of the chorus of the WNO, Angharad Morgan, is a resident in my constituency, and she was singing there yesterday as well. And one of the things she stressed to me is it's not only the regular work and regular tours that the WNO do, but also the community outreach work that they do with people with additional learning needs, for example, which is very close to my heart. And they do some wonderful things.

But what I wanted to do, just to add a new direction to the question, is just remind you of the widely supported statement of opinion that Rhianon Passmore has posted. She can't be here today, but this is her principle. She says that we recognise 

'the challenge posed by financial austerity and the funding cuts which have been made as part of the bi-national funding agreement.'

And she wants to stress that bi-national aspect. And she

'Calls on the Welsh Government to urgently work with partners, including the UK Government, to seek bi-national funding arrangements which will help the WNO maintain a full-time organisation in the short and medium term, until longer-term, sustainable plans can be put in place.'

Basically, what she's saying is we need to keep the WNO alive until such time as further funding can be found. Would you agree and support that, and respond to that, as well the responses you've given already? 

Thank you. Well, Rhianon Passmore, I think, on day three in the job, was knocking on my door around the WNO, and they know, in this Senedd—and certainly this was something we discussed yesterday—they have cross-party support, and I think that is really important. So, I'm absolutely committed to continuing to work with them. The community work is very important—you heard Laura Anne Jones mention the health work, you heard Heledd Fychan mention the educational work. You're right, the community work is just as important. And the first time, I think, I came across the WNO was when they did a workshop in my own constituency when I was first elected, about 17 years ago, and I remember the outreach work they were doing there. So, I do not underestimate the seriousness of the situation, but I am fully committed to doing all I can.

Cabinet Secretary, we've heard today in detail from colleagues around the Chamber the importance that they feel the Welsh National Opera has for our life here in Wales. And what I think comes across really, really clearly as well is that this is not the first cultural institution that has warned about financial issues in the last number of months. We've heard, for example, from Amgueddfa Cymru as well, citing financial concerns for their organisation. Now, we know, in the Welsh Government's last budget, that culture or the culture line in the budget probably took a bigger cut than any other part of the Welsh Government's budget. So, under your tenure as Cabinet Secretary, can you reassure the Senedd that that decision will not be taken again and that culture will be prioritised in future spending?

Well, you will have heard me say in an answer to Laura Anne Jones that I can't give any commitment about next year's budget because we've got no certainty on future funding at the moment. We are expecting another multi-year funding settlement. But, of course, there's great uncertainty in relation to the timing of that, given the uncertainty of timing for the next UK general election.

The Welsh Government has set up a working group to focus on access to services as part of the disability rights taskforce. This work is integral to driving forward access to all services in Wales, including for those with hearing loss.

It is very important that people who have hearing loss have access, if they need one, to a British Sign Language translator when attending medical appointments, when dealing with councils and other public services. I often compare it with me and speaking Welsh: quite happy to speak socially, but, when it gets complicated, I use one of these that translates it for me. And I think a lot of other people do the same. I think it is important that, for people who are deaf to get the full understanding, they have a BSL translator. This is the only way to ensure the deaf community can fully understand what is being said. What is the Welsh Government doing to ensure access to BSL interpreters when requested?

Thank you. I think you raise a very important point, Mike Hedges. Under the Equality Act 2010, service providers must provide reasonable adjustments, and that includes BSL interpreters, who are essential to ensure access to services. But we do, however, acknowledge there is a shortage of BSL interpreters and translators in Wales, and that capacity building needs to take place. I mentioned in an earlier answer that I co-chaired the disability rights taskforce group this morning, and we have a BSL interpreter there to help some of our people who attend that group. I've had to learn to slow down my speech quite significantly, going forward, but it's really important that we have that discussion. It was good to hear somebody talking this morning about BSL being part of GCSE now, and, obviously, it's part of the curriculum, and the Welsh Government was one of the first to recognise BSL as a language. So, I don't disagree with what you say at all. I do think we need to look at the capacity to make sure we have enough BSL interpreters here in Wales, but, in the meantime, we certainly encourage service providers and service users to work together to make sure those services are responsive to the needs of all citizens in Wales.

Well, access to public services for deaf BSL signers is being held back by the lack of provision of BSL interpreters. The manager for the Wales Interpretation and Translation Service, WITS, attended the last meeting of the cross-party group on deaf issues, which I chair, highlighting a shortfall of interpreters, especially for emergency and unplanned care, with most requests being pre-planned, and with challenges in finding interpreters with appropriate skills at short notice. How do you propose to address both this and concerns raised about staff in the health service lacking knowledge about how to book interpreters, about a disconnect between staff in the health service and WITS leading to uncertainty about interpreter availability, about deaf individuals receiving appointment letters without clear information on whether an interpreter is booked, causing confusion and uncertainty, and about the lack of awareness in the medical profession about the needs of deafblind individuals?

Well, I mentioned the need to build up the capacity here in Wales. We were the first country in the UK to recognise British Sign Language alongside English, Welsh and other languages in its curriculum, and we now need to make sure that we support the increase in the services. It's very clear that BSL is the first or preferred language of the deaf community not just in Wales, but right across the UK.

Our 'Violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence: strategy 2022 to 2026' prioritises tackling all forms of domestic abuse and sexual violence. Our commitment to tackling stalking and harassment is being delivered through our VAWDASV blueprint, which includes work streams focused on tackling perpetration and gender-based harassment in all public spaces.

Thank you for that response.

Cabinet Secretary, while stalking protection orders were introduced as a vital tool to safeguard victims of this awful crime, the stark reality is that these orders remain alarmingly underutilised across Wales. Recent freedom of information requests revealed alarming statistics from three Welsh police forces: over the past two years, these forces recorded over 13,000 incidents of stalking, but, during the same period, they issued only 12 stalking protection orders combined. Dyfed-Powys Police did not respond and weren't able to provide any data. The reasons for this failure are, of course, multifaceted, but the lack of training and understanding among our law enforcement officers cannot be ignored. According to a 2021 report from the Suzy Lamplugh Trust, 50 per cent of stalking advocates said police 'hardly ever' or 'never' consider a stalking protection order without being prompted. This situation cannot continue. I'd like to ask you, Cabinet Secretary, whether you would consider taking this issue forward and championing multi-agency stalking intervention programmes, which is something that's advocated by the Suzy Lamplugh Trust and other partners, in order to address this rising issue of stalking. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Diolch. I am aware of the report that the Member refers to of the Suzy Lamplugh Trust, and the recommendations within that report to tackle stalking. You'll be very well aware that we work very closely with our police colleagues. The issues, I think, raised in the report predominantly are not devolved, and it's for the UK Government to respond to these recommendations, but I was really pleased to learn that both north Wales and Dyfed-Powys police forces have recently recruited a domestic abuse stalking perpetrator co-ordinator to focus on the risks posed by perpetrators, taking a really proactive approach in this area. So, what that will do is investigate the effective use of stalking protection orders and have a look at a multidisciplinary response to stalking. So, it's something I will certainly raise with the PCCs when I meet them—I think it's the week after next. Also in north Wales, the force has commenced a new multi-agency stalking panel. That includes the police, victim services, probation and a forensic psychologist. So, I'll certainly be very interested to see how that plays out.

Recently, Cabinet Secretary, I was made aware of the acronym FOUR—fixated, obsessive, unwanted and repeated. I wasn't aware of that previously. I wonder, Cabinet Secretary, given what you said in response to Jane Dodds, what more you can say about any potential communication campaign that the Welsh Government can run in order to encourage people, if there are signs of stalking, to encourage them so that they feel able to contact the police and be aware of those signs?

I wasn't aware of that group, either. I think I wrote it all down correctly, but I will certainly have a look at that. Following my meeting with the four new—well, two new, two re-elected—PCCs, I'll certainly—. This is an area that I'm very keen to look at in relation to stalking. Obviously the Live Fear Free helpline could be used at the current time, because I'm not aware of any plans to have a specific line around stalking, but you'll be very aware of Live Fear Free. That's a free 24/7 service for everyone in this space, and I would encourage people to use that, or indeed ring the police, at the current time. 

Finally, question 8, Rhys ab Owen.

Diolch. Our discretionary assistance fund and support for the Fuel Bank Foundation provides a lifeline to households in immediate need. Our Warm Homes Nest scheme and optimised retrofit programme are transforming the homes of low-income households for the long term, lowering bills and reducing carbon emissions.

Diolch, Weinidog. According to Care and Repair Cymru, older people are spending an average of 19 per cent of their income on energy. According to Citizens Advice, 11 per cent of people in Wales are in debt due to their energy bills, meaning they have to worry about bailiffs invading their homes, along with struggling to cover their monthly essentials. The Welsh Government has set targets for 2035 that no households should be living in severe fuel poverty, however these aspirations mean very little to those currently living in fuel poverty. I know that the Government stated in 2021 that they would be looking into introducing interim targets on fuel poverty, but this is yet to happen. Will the Cabinet Secretary now commit to implementing interim targets in the tackling fuel poverty plan in Wales? Diolch.

Thank you. Well, the Member will be aware that I'm two months in post, and this is certainly something that we're looking at in the round around all issues of poverty.

I thank the Cabinet Secretary.

The next item will be questions to the Senedd Commission. The first question is to be answered by Janet Finch-Saunders and to be asked by Carolyn Thomas. 

I'd like to thank the Member, because it's important that we actually keep the natural environment in everything that we do here in the Senedd Commission. I went to see the bees last week. I believe you've been as well.

Yesterday.

Amazing. I would just say in my response to you that any Member who hasn't been up to see the bees, you must go, and you can buy the honey. 

The Commission takes the sustainability portfolio very seriously. We have an externally verified environmental system in place, and we were the first UK legislature to publish a carbon-neutral strategy. We do publish progress updates in our sustainability annual report. We've made significant reductions to energy consumption over the past two winters, at a time when prices rose significantly, and we’ve provided staff with energy advice when they were themselves facing higher bills at home. We run a bike and environment week for staff in June. This year, we will be helping people with low-carbon travel and clothing repairs. We’ve made extensive improvements to the Senedd estate to support biodiversity, including the wildflower strip alongside the Senedd, extended garden areas, beehives, bug hotels and ponds. We’ve also done work in terms of hedgehog recovery, nature recovery. We’ve run biodiversity and well-being walks for staff in early May to explore those areas, and a local primary school have also visited the beehive earlier this month.

Thank you for that. It’s really pleasing to hear about all that goes on; it would be great to promote it on the Senedd website as well. I did look on the Senedd website and that’s where I heard about the bees, so I went to see them yesterday and really enjoyed the visit—thank you.

I recently sponsored a Senedd biodiversity day, bringing together 25 organisations from across Wales to showcase their hard work and dedication to promoting the importance of biodiversity and protecting our wildlife and natural habitats. I also advertised it to the public as well—it was a public event—and I have discovered that some visitors to the bay didn’t realise before that they can visit the Senedd without booking, and that the entrance isn’t very clear. So, as I said, the event was really well attended and received, by members of the public as well as Members of the Senedd, and it was lovely to see them enjoying it, and each organisation brought in a colourful array of objects as well and displays.

So, would you consider making the Senedd biodiversity day an annual event? Because they’d like to see that happen again. Maybe the first week in May would be really good. And would you look at finding new ways to promoting that the Senedd is open to the public? It was great yesterday, when I came in through the main entrance, to see an A-frame outside saying ‘entrance this way’. And I thought that was a really good initiative.

Thank you. Yes, of course, I’ll take those points on board and, when we next meet as a Commission, I will raise those, but I would like to thank you for hosting the event that you did. In fact, some of my constituents attended that event, so that just shows how you reach out when you hold such an event. As far as having a Senedd biodiversity day again, I can’t see any problem with that, but, again, I will raise it. It seems a no-brainer to have one.

We’ve committed to being an anchor client for the Cardiff Heat Network, which will provide our estate with low-carbon heat. Our connection to the network is currently being constructed. We’ve worked with RSPB Cymru and Buglife to make the Senedd estate an urban buzz area, to promote biodiversity. In our carbon strategy, we’ve committed to doubling the green space on the estate. We’re already making progress with this, with a larger garden strip in Tŷ Hywel car park, incorporating many pollinator-friendly plants. We do not use harmful chemicals to reduce weeds on the estate, instead employing vinegar or mechanical means. Changing the way we cut the vegetation alongside the Senedd has turned the land into—and this is really, really important stuff—an important wildflower strip, including two species of orchid, and many more insects are now present. We publish extensive sustainability data each year, both in the stand-alone report and the annual report and accounts. Our canteen sources food from around Wales where possible, and has recently gained the Soil Association’s Food For Life award. We have low rates of food waste and any leftovers and waste staff food are sent locally for composting. We have converted almost the whole estate to run on more efficient LED lights, and that again is really important work. We promote sustainable and active travel, with extensive facilities for cyclists and electric vehicle drivers, and we’ve recently completed the healthy travel workplace charter as part of the Cardiff public services board group.

In saying all that, I would like to thank the team led by Matthew Jones, because behind us all politicians there are people working in the background. It was Matthew that took me up to see the bees and he and his team are to be commended, and the Senedd Commission, to be fair, for all the work that we’re doing in terms of this. It’s important to us all, as Commissioners. Thank you—diolch.

Question 2 to be answered by Hefin David and asked by Gareth Davies.

The Commission is aware of the potential impact of the council tax increases for Members on the determination budget. The Senedd Commission has not had discussions on this matter with the independent remuneration board. However, officials have provided information to the board on this matter. The provision of the determination that allows Members to be reimbursed for council tax for their Cardiff accommodation is sufficient to cover the increases incurred by Members on the basis of their current accommodation.

Thank you very much for that response, Commissioner. Cardiff Council's proposed tax rise in January was 3 per cent, but this was subsequently doubled to a 6 per cent rise in their final budget. This will, of course, hit the pockets of Cardiff residents, but it'll also hit the Senedd Commission budget. Many Senedd Members have accommodation in Cardiff in order to carry out their duties in the Senedd and can claim residential accommodation expenditure. For Members defined as having a main home in the outer area, they can claim back council tax that is payable up to the amount of a property in council tax band F. There was an increase of 7 per cent in the 2024-25 Senedd Commission budget from the previous year's budget in funding for Member-related expenses, but this latest budget was published in November of last year, before Cardiff Council's irresponsible tax hike was announced. The 7 per cent rise in the budget for Members' expenses will also undoubtedly account for the rising cost of living and the increased costs of travel. So, I'd appreciate if the Commissioner could outline whether the Commission has made an assessment of the council tax rises and their impact on the Senedd Commission's budget for expenses, whether the 7 per cent rise for Members' expenses was sufficient to cover this and what contingencies does the Commission have in place so that it is prepared for future unpredicted expenditures?

Okay. Thank you. First of all, I don't want to get into any criticism of Cardiff Council. I think they are scrutinised through their members and make those decisions. There are such things as job-related accommodation for workers in this position, but it doesn't apply to Members, so it may be worth the Member speaking to the Government about this and seeing if there is an opportunity, perhaps, to amend the law. That is, obviously, beyond the jurisdiction of the Senedd Commission, but, certainly, he has raised an important point. He also said, of course, that, up to band F, the remuneration board covers fully the council tax for those Members living in Cardiff who have to travel from the outer ring, I think it's called. I'm a commuter, so I'm just getting to grips with these things and finding out what it is like to travel from so far.

One thing—. You raised a concern about the budget. The Senedd draft budget contains an amount set for issues of Members' expenses that the remuneration board has requested us to set aside. The good news for you is that most Members don't claim the maximum expenses to which they're entitled. I think it's worth us broadcasting that loudly: Members don't claim the maximum expenses to which they're entitled. And that gives us quite a lot of headroom to make up for contingencies such as this with Cardiff Council. So, it isn't a concern going into the future budget. As you've brought this to our attention, it will be considered as an issue in the future draft budget, but we aren't concerned that it's going to lead to any need for supplementary guidance in the future.

Question 3 next, to be answered by Joyce Watson and asked by Julie Morgan.

I thank you, Julie, for that question. The Senedd Commission remains committed to optimising the active participation of people who are deaf or hard of hearing in the work of the Senedd. On our estate, services and facilities, including BSL interpreters, palantypists, lip speakers and hearing loop systems, can be used to facilitate participation for people who are deaf or have a hearing loss in Senedd business, tours and visits. All video content provided for the Senedd social media channels is issued with subtitles. This is done in both Welsh and in English. Commission staff are currently exploring how the existing provision of both live and recorded British Sign Language interpretation for Plenary items on Tuesdays and Wednesdays could be enhanced.

Thank you for the response.

Thank you very much, Joyce. Two weeks ago, I had a 90-second statement here in the Chamber to talk about the life of Dorothy Miles, who was a deaf sign language poet from north Wales. I was very pleased that the statement was interpreted live here into British Sign Language. There were members of the British Deaf Association up in the gallery and Senedd business up until the statement was not interpreted, and after the statement, it switched back to no interpretation, and I think this was very difficult, because we had deaf people here in the Senedd who weren't able to follow the proceedings.

So, I do think a lot more work needs to be done, and I'm very pleased to hear what you're planning, because we do want to make this place accessible to everybody. At the moment, current arrangements do mean that people can be excluded. I wondered if it might be worth you looking at the Scottish Parliament, where they have a particular page on the website, which helps people to negotiate all the different areas where there is interpretation. I wondered, to start with, because I'm aware that there's a shortage of interpreters, which came up in the previous set of questions, whether the Commission would consider live interpreting every First Minister's questions into BSL as a start.

Again, all the points that you make are absolutely valid, and I was really pleased to see, when you were asking your question, that the interpretation was here. But you're right, obviously, to say that that wasn't the case for all of that afternoon's session, and those people who would have hoped to have it didn't get it. However, on Senedd.tv, we do have subtitles for the business that is carried on here, and we also have the Record, which people can read. But I think it's fair to say that we're at the point where we're about to change this Chamber and it was raised in a meeting we had last week about the changes that will happen once it has been reconfigured. One of the issues that was raised was a space for a BSL interpreter, so the thinking is there, is what I'm trying to say.

We have also already engaged with Ireland and Scotland on what they're doing, and that already has happened; Commission staff have done that. And you're right that there is a shortage of BSL interpreters at the moment. But in terms of moving forward and making this an inclusive Parliament—and that's what we're talking about—we do other things beyond BSL for other people who are hard of hearing, or need help and support with limited hearing. So, it's a live issue. We are trying to move it forward, and we hope to do that as soon as possible, given the restrictions that I've just mentioned.

As I said earlier, for many deaf people, their preferred communication method is BSL and that means that they can fully understand what is being said. To get a full understanding, they definitely need BSL. Lip reading won't provide it, they'll get a fair understanding of it—and I compared it to me with Welsh previously—but you don't get the full understanding and the full nuance. If BSL is unavailable, subtitles are the second-best option, although people who watch subtitles on television realise that they can get things remarkably wrong on those. Does the Commissioner agree with me that it is important that we ensure that people who are deaf or hard of hearing have the same access to information as hearing people?

I absolutely do agree with you, Mike. Hearing loop provision around the estate has been audited and improved, and improved one-to-one loop systems are installed at reception in all three buildings. We have now purchased newer, more advanced portable loop systems, which can be used in meeting rooms and bigger event spaces, because, clearly, the pre-existing ones weren't adequate.

The Siambr, committee rooms and public galleries are all fitted with an infrared audio system. In addition to the in-room fixed system, we also have a portable version for off-site external committees and events. That system provides translation and verbatim audio amplification via headsets or an induction neck loop, available on request for Members, witnesses and the public attending proceedings.

Attendees at Senedd events, tours, outreach events and meetings are asked if they require any reasonable adjustments as part of the planning process. Similarly, organisations planning events on the Senedd estate have to adhere to an accessibility checklist.

British Sign Language interpretation is made available for First Minister’s questions each Tuesday and each meeting of the Welsh Youth Parliament. Commission staff are exploring how we can enhance that, and I have answered those questions in responding to the previous question.

Interpretation is available, upon request, for anyone wishing to watch a specific debate or committee meeting, for events and for Senedd tours. BSL interpretation has been proactively provided where the subject discussed is such—and we did that as well.

Commission staff have undergone disability awareness training, with extra deaf awareness and BSL classes provided. Our front of house and security colleagues have undertaken disability confidence training. The Commission’s newly designed inclusive customer service training module will provide best practice when liaising with members from the deaf community. The hope is that it will raise our staff members’ awareness and confidence when dealing with a diverse range of customers.

I have already mentioned that the inter-parliamentary learning at work provision included a sessions in the Oireachtas and the Scottish Parliament on BSL.

There are three pension schemes connected to the Senedd. In relation to the Members of the Senedd's pension scheme, the Commission has no means to influence the allocation of the pension scheme's assets. The power to invest the scheme’s assets sits entirely with the pension board, which is independent of the Commission.

The support staff pension scheme is run by Aviva. The Commission is not involved in deciding how the assets are invested. The civil service pension scheme, which is available to Commission staff, is an unfunded scheme and therefore has no assets to invest. Benefits are paid from tax revenues rather than from assets set aside to pay them.

I hope that that was clear enough.

Thank you very much for that response. Well, of course, Hefin will be aware that a number of demands have been made over the years on divesting from investments in unethical companies. There is great concern at the moment that the Commission pension pot, and things relating to Commission pensions, could be used to fund arms companies, and those weapons, in turn, being sold to the Israeli Government, who would then use those weapons to attack hospitals, charities, schools and so on in Gaza. So, can you give us assurance that you, as a Commission, will look into this issue and put pressure, where it is appropriate and possible to do so, on pension investors to divest from companies that produce arms?

We have the three pensions that I mentioned that the Commission is related to—or Commission staff are related to. The Members' pension is the responsibility of the pension board. So, the Commission can't directly influence that. It has got to be through the pension board. I have got some good news and bad news. The good news is that I have just joined the pension board. That's good news. The bad news is that I haven't been to the first meeting yet. But certainly what he said, I think, is worth that dialogue, and perhaps a response from the pension board to you. Perhaps you might want to write to the pension board directly with these issues. Certainly, the pension board is interested in long-term investment in companies that are likely to be sustainable and keep a strategy that is around appropriate investments.

As I said in my answer to you earlier, the issue with the support staff pension is that it's run by Aviva, so we don't have a say on that one, but, again, you might wish to write directly to Aviva with your concerns, and raise those concerns with them. And then a little bit more good news for you: the civil service pension scheme, which is available to Commission staff, is an unfunded scheme, and therefore has no assets to invest.

So, where I can help you is with the Members' scheme, and make those representations via the pension board. So, perhaps we could have a discussion—. Mike Hedges is also a member of the pension board. I'm sure we would be willing to have a discussion with you—Mike—

Yes.

—before our next meeting, and make sure that your concerns are heard loud and clear.

I'd just like to follow on from Mabon's question and ask specifically about what can be done to divest from Israeli companies in general, given that an increasing majority people are not just against, but reviled by Israel's continuing offensive in Gaza and its bloody consequences. It's long overdue that we act upon this. Many people will be horrified to learn that their pension investments may potentially be sustaining a war economy that is causing so much death and destruction for the people of Gaza. I want to know what the Senedd can do to do its part in bringing about the end of this horrific conflict and play its part in bringing about peace, humanity and a future for Palestine, through its pension schemes, but also through its procurement processes.

I think I'd refer you to the answer I gave to Mabon, but also the pension board reviews the environmental, social and governance credentials of its managers annually, and questions its advisors on the managers' approach to the environmental, social and governance issues at each pension board meeting. So, again, at the next pension board meeting, I'm happy to raise it, and I'm sure Mike Hedges would say the same thing. I'll repeat what I've said to Mabon, and what you've said is heard loud and clear.

And finally, question 5, Luke Fletcher.

Thank you, Luke, for your question. The Senedd is committed to making the Senedd estate welcoming and accessible to people with dementia, and to the people that accompany them as well. Since the Commission committed to becoming a dementia-friendly organisation in 2015, we continue to build on this work in the sixth Senedd, including providing training to staff, as well as awareness-raising sessions and articles. We're developing customer service guidance on non-visible disabilities, which includes guidance relating to delivering an inclusive service to people with dementia, and that will accompany new training provision for front-line staff to provide an inclusive welcome for customers, building on previous training that they've received.

Thank you for that answer. It's welcome news to learn of the training that is happening. It's always surprising to a lot of people when you give them the information around how dementia can affect perception. Something simple like a black mark to us might appear as a black hole to somebody who is with dementia, and they will be, therefore, afraid to cross that hole.

As chair of the cross-party group on dementia, I was really glad to see the Alzheimer's Society's event in the Norwegian church just last week, as part of Dementia Action Week, where we heard directly from those who are living with dementia, and some of the concerns that they have, as well as some of the challenges they face. So, I was wondering if the Commission might commit to engaging with those who are living with dementia on a regular basis to see where the challenges lie in terms of changing the Senedd estate, but also to actively consult with them to ensure that, when they do come to the Senedd, those views have been taken on board and that their visit is a pleasant experience.

Thank you. We are always wanting to engage with people, and to make the experience of anybody coming here a good experience, so, of course, we would commit to engaging. And the Commission's newly designed inclusive customer service training module will provide best practice when liaising with people with dementia and those who support them. It will raise our staff members' awareness and confidence when dealing with a diverse range of customers with different requirements. The Commission's visitor engagement team works with groups and individuals ahead of their visits to ensure that their specific needs and requirements are met. The Commission has developed a 360-degree virtual tour, available on the Senedd website, to help visitors to familiarise themselves with the building and its features, particularly for those who might be nervous before they take on such a visit. We provide quiet rooms on the estate and changing places for adults.

Training and awareness sessions were held as part of inclusion month in 2022, and we continue to mark relevant diversity calendar dates to raise awareness. A lot of the good work was somehow interrupted and stalled through COVID. Of course, we need to make sure that all the good practice that was there before continues now. But we are already working closely with Alzheimer's Society Cymru. Their dementia-friendly team have delivered their Dementia Friends training and awareness session for Members. I've taken part in that, and I'm sure many others in this room have. We want to do the best. This is the people's building, it's not our building—we recognise that, and anything that we can do, we will do. So, the short answer is, 'Yes, we'll engage', but we also have published guidance, blogs and articles promoting dementia awareness and we do take our responsibility very seriously.

I thank the Commissioners.

Item 4 today is the topical questions. The first topical question is from Mabon ap Gwynfor.

Thank you very much. On Monday, I apologised on behalf of the Welsh Government to everyone in Wales who suffered and was affected by the infected blood scandal. I would like to reiterate that apology here today and confirm that the Government will stage a debate on this issue in the Senedd on 4 June. I will inform Members at that point how we will continue to work with the other Governments across the UK in order provide the justice that the victims deserve.

Thank you for that response. I want to begin by adding my voice to those who have congratulated and thanked the survivors of this scandal, their families and supporters, who have had to campaign for far too long for justice. This was a scandal that could easily have been avoided. As the report from the inquiry has said, this was no accident; it was not misfortune. People received infected blood from people who knew the blood had been infected. It is a direct result of systemic failures, following a conspiracy to conceal the truth and information in order to protect reputations, and is the result of a lack of transparency and the failure of politicians and senior officials to acknowledge fault. It is an absolutely damning report and there are lessons to be learnt by all of us.

The Langstaff report gives voice to them and lays bare the systematic failures at every level that created the environment in which this scandal was able to endure for so long. That campaigners had to fight so hard against a system that circled the wagons, sought to defend its own interests and prioritised its own protection over correcting its mistakes is shameful. There are recommendations in the Langstaff report, including on patient safety and haemophiliac care, in areas of devolved competence. Can the Cabinet Secretary assure us that these are being implemented? More generally, does she agree with me that there is an important lesson in this about the paramount importance of the duty of candour and the willingness to address systemic issues in our health service openly, honestly and in concert with victims and survivors? What steps is the Cabinet Secretary taking to ensure that these are adhered to and implemented here? Does she also agree that there can be no delay in paying compensation to those impacted by this scandal, and that there is a role for Welsh Ministers in holding the UK Government's feet to the fire, ensuring that the cost is borne in full by Whitehall, and that the scheme is delivered at pace and in a way that ensures that no-one impacted by the scheme misses out on compensation for which they have already waited too long?

Thanks very much, Mabon. I think you are absolutely right in the tone that you used there. This is the worst scandal in the history of the NHS. I'd like to pay tribute to all those people, in particular those who suffered over so many years and whose voices weren't heard. But I'd also like to pay tribute to the campaigners who stood with them, and in particular, in this Chamber, to Julie Morgan, who, for years and years, stood by and with the victims, not just in this Chamber but also in Westminster. Thank you, Julie, for all your work.

I think you're absolutely right in your outrage, and I'd like to echo that outrage on behalf of the victims. They were very poorly served, and it is good at last that their voices have been heard. There are many, many recommendations in the report; it's a very long report. There are 12 recommendations, across all areas of healthcare, which we're going to take time to address. In terms of the next steps, the infected blood inquiry report next steps for Wales group will be set up. That's going to consider the recommendations and shape our response to them. That group will be chaired by our new deputy chief medical officer, Push Mangat.

Officials are already working with the UK Government in terms of next steps in relation to compensation, via the newly formed Infected Blood Compensation Authority. I have already received a letter from the UK Government Minister, who's very keen to see that there's no delay. He has suggested that that second interim payment, which was announced this week—£210,000 to those living beneficiaries who are registered on a support scheme—will be paid within 90 days. We will be channelling that via the Welsh scheme for the time being, just to make sure that they get paid. We have had it confirmed that the UK Government will be bearing the cost in full and will be paying for this.

Thanks very much to the Cabinet Secretary for her response and for her apology on behalf of the Welsh Government, and thank you to Mabon for putting the topical question.

As I said during the business statement yesterday, I was up in Central Hall Westminster when this very important statement was made, and I was with people from south Wales who have suffered and have been affected. I just wanted to use this opportunity to pay tribute to Lynne Kelly, who is a constituent of mine in Cardiff North, and has been the driving force behind our response in Wales. In fact, she first approached me when I was her Member of Parliament, back in 1997, to inform me about the scandal and about the need for an inquiry. She was there on that bus going up to London yesterday, looking after and paying attention to all the people who fought for so long. So, I just wanted to put on record my thanks and admiration for all that she has done.

The message from Sir Brian Langstaff was clear: it wasn't a mistake, it was a cover-up, and it occurred on a monumental scale. Obviously, it's now down to the UK Government, but it's also down to us, to make sure that every single one of those recommendations in the report is carried out. I think yesterday was very important to the people who were there to hear it, and those who watched it on television at home, who were infected or affected. But there was also this fear of, 'Will they do it?', because they've had 40 years of waiting for something to happen and nothing has happened.

Also, the announcement yesterday regarding compensation was very welcome, but it should have been made at least a year ago, when Sir Brian released his first urgent recommendation on compensation. Since then, more than 80 people have died, so people have lost that opportunity to at least have some financial help, and also to feel easy that their families will be supported. 

I think that those delay tactics that have already been seen by the UK Government are really making campaigners worried that they will not get the compensation, and that heels will be dragged about all the recommendations. I think it's been beholden on us, here in Wales, to make sure that this happens. What pressure will the Cabinet Secretary put on the UK Government to ensure that all these recommendations are carried out?

Thanks very much, Julie. Can I say how humbled I've been by the work you've done on this, over so many years? I know how moved you've been by the stories of those victims. Thank you for standing by and with them. You were someone who did hear their voices. You were somebody who did listen to them. It's a lesson to us all—that more of us need to listen and hear what our constituents are telling us. I hope that you and they feel vindicated by those years and years of campaigning where they weren't listened to. 

I want my officials to take time to consider this report. It's taken a long time. I don't want to give a snap answer, because I want to give it the respect it deserves. But, absolutely, we will take it very, very seriously. Obviously, many of the recommendations will be for the UK Government, but I will commit to you that anything in relation to Wales we will take very seriously. 

I absolutely hear you in terms of the urgency of those payments. There has been a commitment to pay within 90 days that additional interim payment of £210,000. We will be playing our part as a Welsh Government in making sure that the Wales infected blood support scheme will be paying out within that timetable. There have been delay tactics over the years. I want to make that commitment to you that we will move heaven and earth to make sure that we can make those payments within 90 days to those people who've been waiting for so long. 

Let me join colleagues and thank Mabon ap Gwynfor for raising this here today, and join the Cabinet Secretary too in paying credit to all those who have campaigned on this issue over the years. I also join the Cabinet Secretary in her words of clarity, by outlining that this scandal is one of the greatest failures of the British state, and also to reflect on the words from Sir Brian Langstaff, who wrote the report. He chose to use the word 'calamity', but, in truth, there are no words that can wholly sum up the tragedy that has taken place over decades, including the disgraceful cover-ups from senior people in the national health service, Government ministries and the civil service. The awful attitude towards victims, the callousness with which they were treated, is certainly beyond a calamity in my book.

They were, as we know, infected with contaminated blood, and then effectively gaslit by the authorities who covered it up every step of the way. There are so many innocent people who have suffered needlessly. Certainly, our thoughts are with them and their loved ones. We know that, in Wales, around 400 people are known to be infected, but we also know that this is unlikely to be the full number. The report that we are discussing today was clear in its criticisms of the UK and Welsh Governments, so I certainly welcome the formal apologies from both Governments to the victims. We must ensure that situations like this are never allowed to happen again, and that the groupthink and the secrecy that encourages cover-ups—the points that Mabon ap Gwynfor mentioned—are eradicated once and for all.

A number of us here today so far have mentioned the Prime Minister's commitment to a comprehensive compensation package. So, a question on that point first, Cabinet Secretary, just to join with colleagues also in terms of the timing of that. I wonder if you have any concerns, initially, about the speed. You said 90 days, but do you have any concerns that that will not be met? Are there any issues or barriers that may be in place to stop that happening sooner rather than later? And, then, just to again make the point on the secrecy and cover-up culture that seemed to come through in this report, I wonder, Cabinet Secretary, are there any proactive measures that you'll be considering to ensure that public bodies in Wales don't engage in that culture of secrecy and cover-ups, so that these tragedies don't happen again?

Thanks very much, Sam. Certainly, this is a shameful episode in UK political history, and it is important that we all reflect on that. There are around 264 people who are beneficiaries of the Wales infected blood support scheme. The word 'beneficiary' doesn't seem right to me. These are people who are victims, who've paid a huge price, and no money is going to compensate for the suffering that they've gone through, in particular those who've lost loved ones and who've suffered in very often immense pain. 

In terms of the 90 days, what are the barriers? Well, I guess the money needs to come into our account so that we can spend it. There are a lot of rumours swirling around this afternoon about a general election—we need to make sure that that doesn't get in the way. But also I think it's probably really important to underline the fact that, in Wales now, in relation to the national health service, there is a legal duty of candour—a legal duty. So, this is something that we have to make sure is applied and taken seriously. I know that there's a lot of training going on within our health service to make sure people understand what that means in practice.

I thank the Cabinet Secretary. The next topical question is from Andrew R.T. Davies.

Thank you for your question, Andrew R.T. Davies. The co-operation agreement was about mature politics. Through working together, we achieved a great deal. As the First Minister set out in Plenary yesterday, while we regret the early departure of Plaid Cymru, we're committed to working collaboratively in the Senedd on key priority areas.

I am disappointed that the First Minister isn't here again this Wednesday. Two weeks ago, he was not here for a debate on his portfolio responsibilities. Again, I've put a question down. It does beg the question, what is the point in putting questions down if Ministers don't turn up to answer them? Bitterly disappointing.

You said in your opening remarks this was about mature Government. That mature Government delivered national 20 mph, 36 more politicians and a failed sustainable farming scheme, as well as failure to tackle the chronic waiting lists within our NHS, the declining education standards as marked by the Programme for International Student Assessment on international rankings, and obviously the slashing of business rate relief for many small and medium-sized businesses. That's hardly mature Government and hardly delivering for the people of Wales.

But on a more organisational point, if I may, as you're leader of the house, Minister, I look at the forward programme for government business for the next three weeks, and the first week back after we come back from recess there are two items of business, I look on the following Tuesday, there are another two items of business, and the third week, there are another two—

I must remind the leader of the opposition, the question is on the co-operation agreement, not on business coming up.

Well, I'm just trying to lead in to the point about how is the Government functioning, bringing forward business that clearly it doesn't seem—[Interruption.]

Can Members allow the leader of the opposition to put his question?

Clearly, it doesn't seem to have got an idea of where it wants to go. Ultimately, this should have been dealt with by the First Minister to outline and give us confidence that he knows where he wants this Government to go. So, can you as leader of the house give a commitment that the Government will get its mojo back and start delivering for the people of Wales, rather than continuing this downward spiral that it seems to have set its course on?

In my response to his supplementary points, and I'm not sure where the question was—

I'm not sure where the First Minister is.

I'll come on to the points that you made. The leader of the opposition will understand I'm going to focus on his question. It is a question about the ending of the co-operation agreement on 17 May. It was always a time-limited agreement, but I would have to say that the majority of the commitments—

Like a microwave going 'ping'.

Are you going to listen, leader of the opposition, to my answer to your question?

I'd like the First Minister—

The majority of the commitments that we've worked on so collaboratively together are completed or are in the process of being completed, and we'll now look closely at—

Trefnydd, one second, please.

—how we can progress the outstanding—

There are too many Members on all benches speaking to conversations outside of what the Minister is trying to respond to. Now, I've asked that everyone gives the Trefnydd the decency of allowing her to respond. 

Diolch yn fawr, Dirprwy Lywydd. The majority of commitments are completed or are in the process of being implemented, and we are immensely proud of these—we're immensely proud, aren't we, together, of those commitments, what's been completed. And we're now looking closely at how we can progress the outstanding co-operation agreement commitments, and I will name some of them—and, of course, our Ministers here today, our Cabinet Secretaries, are taking those forward; they're hugely important for the people of Wales, which is what our co-operation agreement was working to serve—the Welsh language education Bill, the White Paper on the right to adequate housing and fair rents. These are the issues we're looking closely at. Those are the co-operation agreements that we take together. And can I just say, because I will respond, as the First Minister said yesterday, with his Cabinet team he's focusing on his role as First Minister, as he is the First Minister who went to meet the Tata chiefs in Mumbai, who met the farmers, the steelworkers and health workers in his first few days of office. Yes, he is, actually, in north Wales—on his way to north Wales—to address the Wales TUC. I don't think you'll get an invite to the Wales TUC, Andrew R.T. Davies. [Interruption.] He is focusing—

Sorry, Trefnydd. I would expect people to allow the Trefnydd to respond without trying to speak over her. 

Diolch yn fawr, Dirprwy Lywydd. I think I've said my piece. 

I was half expecting Andrew R.T. Davies to offer to enter into a co-operation agreement with you, given that he has already made that plea on social media, when Vaughan Gething became First Minister. But, obviously, electioneering has started. 

I'd also ask perhaps that Andrew R.T. Davies corrects the Record. Actually, 20 mph isn't in the co-operation agreement. There were 46 areas, but that wasn't a part of it, and we did secure an amendment. So, please, correct the Record, because it wasn't part of the co-operation agreement, which is the focus of this question. 

On all steps of the devolution journey, co-operation has played an integral part in the work of the Senedd. Indeed, co-operation has been necessary, because no party has had a majority Government in 25 years. As you said in your response, this is mature politics. And we too are proud of the co-operation that has taken place throughout the existence of this Senedd. It is extremely important that no party should have a monopoly on good ideas, and where we can collaborate, that should happen.

Clearly, there was an agreement formalised in this place, and I would like to repeat what Rhun ap Iorwerth said in the Chamber yesterday. The new political direction set by the First Minister and the scandal surrounding the £200,000 donation for the Labour leadership race have taken focus off the important work of this agreement. But we are committed to co-operation and to continue with those commitments. That hasn't changed.

So, does the Trefnydd agree with me that it is important that this Senedd has mature politics and that co-operation should be part of that, and that this Government will continue to be willing to co-operate on the delivery of innovative and progressive policies for our communities? 

Diolch yn fawr, Heledd Fychan. And I couldn't agree with you more. And I don't like to say often, 'Remember those who have been here for 25 years', but there are actually three of us here in this Chamber at the moment. But we have co-operated: we were in coalition with Plaid Cymru for four years, we were in a partnership agreement with the Welsh Liberal Democrats, we've been a minority Government, actually, also working closely together on budgets with both Plaid Cymru and the Welsh Liberal Democrats—never with the Welsh Conservatives. Never with the Welsh Conservatives. [Interruption.] So, can I just take the opportunity to, actually, say how pleased we were when Rhun ap Iorwerth, your leader, said yesterday:

'We on these benches'—

Plaid Cymru—

'are very proud of what was achieved through that agreement'.

And we share that pride. And he also emphasised to the First Minister—your leader—

'our commitment to continue to work together on issues where we are agreed.' 

He reiterated that message sincerely. We want to extend that. We share that. And can I just take the opportunity, Dirprwy Lywydd, to thank Siân Gwenllian and Cefin Campbell for their work through the agreement? By working together we've achieved a great deal, and let's just list some of those things we've done together, including free school meals for all pupils in primary schools; providing more free childcare; and, Julie Morgan, I pay tribute to the work that Julie did with Siân Gwenllian on Flying Start. The designated Members worked together on a radical package of measures to create thriving local communities, helping people to live locally, addressing high numbers of second homes in many areas of Wales. Mature politics is actually about working with the people on the issues you agree with, and we have a duty to the people of Wales to do that. So, let's continue to work together in the way that you've suggested and decided. Diolch yn fawr. 

I too am very proud of the record of our respective parties in relation to the work that we did under the co-operation agreement. I am, nevertheless, disappointed that the First Minister isn't here, and as much as I support the work of the Wales TUC, does his absence today suggest that he feels more accountable to the Wales TUC than he does to Senedd Cymru?

As First Minister, as I said, he has his duties and roles to play. I'm very pleased to be answering this question today, I have to say, Llyr Gruffydd. Of course, yesterday he was here as First Minister answering questions. But today is a non-Government business day.

But I just want to say that I'm really pleased to have the opportunity to answer the leader of the opposition's question, because it has been ingrained in me in my political life that we should reach out and work together, and I think that's part of the reason why we have been successful in terms of the 25 years—a quarter of a century—of devolution. What we must be most proud of, and with Jane if she was here today, is that we've got through that package of Senedd reform to take this Senedd and Welsh devolution onwards. 

Moving forward—a way forward.

I thank the Trefnydd. The final topical question is from Rhun ap Iorwerth.

[Inaudible.]—UK Government, and we welcome today's statement that Wylfa is the preferred site in developing a nuclear power station in north Wales. This recognises what many of us in this Senedd have known for some time. We look forward to seeing the detail, and the plan and the funding commitment that people will need to have assurances for the future. 

Thank you very much for that response. I want to be positive because I have always worked positively to try and ensure that any development at Wylfa brings the greatest economic benefit, and that the interests of our communities in Ynys Môn are considered and safeguarded. I'll make this point to begin with: we need to ensure a local voice in these decisions, not something being done to us. That's not what these developments should be. 

But I have to say that there are real doubts about how much of an announcement this is, in all seriousness. We mustn't raise people's hopes too much. I hope the Minister would agree with me on that point. I've been involved in this issue for 10 years or more as an elected Member. For those who perhaps haven't been involved in this matter for as long, it's worth reminding ourselves that we've been in this position before, and reminding ourselves of all the hard work that led to the Wylfa project being ready to go. Of course, there was a complete mess made of that by the UK Conservative Government, which meant that that project was not continued with, and now we're back at the beginning, but this is not a matter of starting from the beginning here. 

I'm not the only one to have predicted that we were likely to get something in this election year for reasons of political expediency that sounded like an announcement that Wylfa was go. I must say, I didn't expect it to be as audacious as to announce it, perhaps, a day before an election is called, if the rumours are to be true. But, of course, whatever the positive elements of this announcement, the truth of the matter is that we are still decades away from having a new scheme. It doesn't mean we don't look at the positives, but we have to be honest—Wylfa Newydd would have been under construction had the Conservative Government not led to its collapse. Apprenticeships had begun. We're talking now about a power station possibly being built by 2050. The apprentices haven't been born yet. What the Government has announced is that they're launching talks with international energy companies to explore building a power station. We have been here a long time ago, and the people of Ynys Môn I don't think are in the mood to be misled in any way. So, given that the UK Government doesn't even have a technology that has been chosen yet—I've been honest; I'd rather a smaller scheme that would be more in fitting with our community, but—does the Minister agree with me on the need to couple incremental positivity with a firm dose of reality? 

I thank Rhun ap Iorwerth for that further question. Apart from a brief phone call yesterday afternoon, we weren't given advance notice of the UK Government's announcement. It is important to welcome progress, however modest that progress may be. What the statement doesn't confirm is that the project will definitely go ahead, and I do think it is important, not least given the history that Rhun ap Iorwerth has spelled out in his supplementary question, to be mindful that what we actually need—. As well as the indication that we've had today, what we need to see is a timeline, an actual commitment and detail, if people are to have the reassurance that they need. We've had discussions in this Chamber and in committee very recently about the need for skills planning in relation to nuclear, and that requires that level of certainty so that we can all make the arrangements that we need to make. What I will say is that, as a Government, we are ready to work in partnership with the UK Government of whatever colour to help deliver this opportunity.  

I've heard there have been discussions with South Korea—the irony of Great British Nuclear and then letting foreign Governments profit from it while the risk is taken up by public funds. Hinkley B's estimated cost was £18.2 billion. Updated costs are now £31 billion, and EDF has estimated £46 billion. Regarding needing this for baseload, the former chief executive officer of the National Grid has said there is no need for baseload; he said this several years ago. The expert planning officers found that Wylfa Newydd failed to meet some of the United Nations' biological diversity standards, and also listed concerns over the project's impact on the local economy, housing stock, health, culture and the Welsh language. 

How can it fulfil the 2050 net-zero target when it will take years to develop and lots of carbon to build it? Including planning and approval estimates, it could be 20 years or more. The life span is just 60 years and a typical reactor generates 30 tonnes of high-level nuclear waste annually that remains radioactive and dangerous to humans for thousands of years. Call me sceptical, but is this just an election announcement?

I thank the Member for her question and I think she ends on the point that Rhun ap Iorwerth made in his supplementary question as well. And I think what we want to see is the level of detail that enables this proposal to be properly assessed and evaluated. I hear what the Member says in relation to her reservations, which I understand are longstanding. There is a contribution that nuclear can make to a decarbonised energy system, as I know that she will also understand the Government's position. But I think the critical thing is that whilst the announcement today indicates a preference, it does not provide that level of detail about future plans that I'm sure all of us would welcome seeing.

Do you know it's not that long ago that the leader of Plaid Cymru was actually saying how much against nuclear power they were? The doom and gloom coming from those benches is just—. On a more cheery note, what a fantastic announcement there has been today that Wylfa on Ynys Môn has been chosen as the UK's next nuclear power station, an announcement that we on these benches certainly welcome. The UK Conservative Government, and, indeed, the pocket rocket Member of Parliament, Virginia Crosbie, they're delivering for Ynys Môn, they're delivering for north-west Wales in terms of the massive economic benefit coming to Anglesey. 

This project could lead to 8,000 construction jobs, 800 steady, quality careers, hundreds of secondary and supply chain employment opportunities, but—and I will agree with Rhun on this—there is an immense skills shortage. I've been here 13 years and the Welsh Government were supposed to be actually making sure that those skills were in place. And as has been mentioned, those people are not even born yet that are needed.

Now, Bangor University have started a general engineering degree, new training facilities have been provided—new, very recent—at Coleg Menai, to offer courses in engineering, fabrication, welding, mechanical engineering and power engineering. However, apprenticeship uptake has been in massive decline, with no focus on this issue whatsoever by the Welsh Labour Government. So, in light of this exciting and transformational announcement, what steps will you be taking, Minister, to ensure that local young people here—well, there—in north-west Wales have the best possible opportunities to secure those all-important STEM careers and massive opportunities? Diolch.

Well, if I may say, that was a remarkable level of boosterism, even for the Member for Aberconwy. I think it's important to have a level of perspective about what we're discussing. I think it is important—. She makes a very important point about the need for planning for the future need for skills and apprenticeships, and the broader skills programmes that we have play a significant part in that. The point I was making earlier, in response to Rhun ap Iorwerth, is that the best environment in which to plan programmatically and proactively for that is one when a timeline is set out, and clarity, certainty and the detail have been provided, and I'm sure she will join me in looking forward to that, when it's provided.

Minister, of course I welcome this announcement. I've placed on record a number of times my thoughts on the nuclear industry in Wales and where that could see Wales. I agree with you, Cabinet Secretary, that this is missing certainty and clarity from the UK Government's announcement, albeit a welcome announcement. The Conservative spokesperson listed a number of potential opportunities that could be realised by this, but failed to reflect on the fact that we could have already been there, or certainly on that journey to being there, if the Conservative Government had come good on a promise from a number of years ago.

Can I ask the Cabinet Secretary will he be seeking certainty and clarity in the conversations he has with UK Government colleagues, so that we can support local supply chains, like Boccard in Broughton, in my constituency, and the local schools and colleges who will need to upskill and retrain existing employees and new apprentices and employees of the future? But to be able to have those conversations, you need that certainty. Will you be seeking that certainty from the UK Government?

Yes. I just want to acknowledge the point that Jack Sargeant has made in his question about the range of businesses in his constituency and right across north Wales and beyond, and I see the Cabinet Secretary for north Wales also, in his seat, acknowledging that point, and how important it is for those businesses, both in the supply chain, further education providers and our universities and others, to have that level of certainty. I will be pressing for that certainty. Something tells me that the Ministers from which I'll be seeking it might be rather different in a few weeks' time.

I thank the Cabinet Secretary.

Item 5 is the 90-second statements, the first of which is from Peredur Owen Griffiths.

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. Capel y Berthen, Lixwm, was the first Calvinistic Methodist chapel in Flintshire. The cause was established in 1776 by John Owen, and the chapel was opened by Daniel Rowlands. The chapel was named after y Berthen Gron, the chapel of the founder, John Owen. That chapel was around half a mile away from the current chapel. The current chapel was built 200 years ago in 1824, and it was the opening of that chapel that was celebrated last Sunday.

But what links the chapel with the Regional Member for South Wales East? Well, dad, the Reverend John Owen Griffiths, was the twelfth minister at the chapel between 1993 and the year 2000, and it was at the chapel that I was received as a member, and we lived virtually next door to the chapel for seven years. 

Over the weekend, I had the privilege of returning to y Berthen for a service and a special lecture by one of the chapel’s elders, the famous botanist Dr Goronwy Wynne, followed by a cymanfa ganu, a celebration in song. The welcome home was as warm as ever, and it was wonderful to see familiar faces and friends, and to remember those who were such a formative influence on me and others in my teens. Thank you very much to Capel y Berthen, and best wishes for the next two centuries.

I'm grateful to my father that I can address you in Welsh today in the Welsh Parliament. The Welsh language had long since died out of the family when my father decided to learn the language. For him, the Welsh language was a gift, and it's difficult to believe today that the policy of Cardiff Council up until the end of the 1960s was that at least one parent had to speak the language before a child could receive a Welsh-medium education.

When he was still a non-Welsh speaker, my father fought to ensure that my brother John could receive Welsh-medium education. That led to a change of policy, and in due time to a huge growth in Welsh-medium education in Cardiff. Today, over 70 per cent of pupils in Welsh-medium education in Cardiff come from non-Welsh-speaking households.

My father was crucial in establishing a number of schools, and his expertise in the history of the Welsh language in Cardiff enabled him to provide appropriate names for these schools. His family couldn't understand why my father joined Plaid Cymru at the end of the 1950s. I remember his sister saying that they tried to reason with him a number of times in order for him to join the Labour Party; it was their view that it was a waste of time to join Plaid Cymru. But my father had a clear vision for a free Wales, and a better Wales for its people, and he continued election after election until he achieved his dream. There were a number of disappointments along the way, but my father was always positive. 

The referendum and election in 1979 encouraged him to establish Clwb Ifor Bach in Cardiff. When the 1997 referendum came about, he organised the telephone canvassing. With a majority of less than 7,000, I'm sure the fact that they spoke to 45,000 people was crucial in the success of that referendum.

On the day of his death, his friend Geraint Davies, former Assembly Member for Rhondda, phoned me. He said how much practical support my father gave him during the 1999 election, although electing Geraint was likely to mean that my father wouldn't be elected to the Assembly. This was very characteristic of my father. The party and, more importantly, the nation, came way before any personal gain.

My father leaves 11 grandchildren, and the twelfth is due within two days, on Friday. Despite his many contributions, this is his main contribution. Thank you, dad. [Applause.]

The towns and villages of magnificent Maldwyn are a fiesta of red, white and green as the ancient fields of Mathrafal near Meifod prepare to welcome the Urdd National Eisteddfod to the marches next week. The week-long event will be the culmination of years of work to raise funds and raise awareness of the festival by local appeals committees across Montgomeryshire, from the River Dyfi to Offa's Dyke.

This is the first time that Montgomery has welcomed the festival since 1988, and it already promises to be an Eisteddfod to remember, with the area abuzz with enthusiasm. This week alone, the Urdd announced that over 100,000 young people from all parts of Wales and beyond have registered to compete in the event, more than ever before. So, as the crowds, be they competitors, parents, teachers, grandparents and so on, prepare to gather in the land of Owain Glyndŵr, Ann Griffiths and Nansi Richards, may I take this opportunity to wish them all well, and thank once again all of those in our communities who have worked so, so hard to support one of the highlights of Wales's cultural calendar? I'm sure that there will be the warmest of welcomes for all of us to join in the fun in magnificent Maldwyn next week. Thank you.

Finally, James Evans. 

Diolch, Deputy Presiding Officer. Tomorrow is the inaugural Senedd dog of the year competition. This incentive serves as a powerful platform to highlight the profound bond between people and their dogs and the vital role that dogs play within Welsh society. Statistics reveal a surge in dog ownership in Wales, with a recent report from the Kennel Club suggesting a 17 per cent rise since the pandemic began. While this trend signifies the growing appreciation of dogs, it also underscores the importance of responsible dog ownership. The Senedd dog of the year campaign serves a crucial purpose by showcasing well-trained, healthy dogs with dedicated owners who always behave themselves in the Senedd Chamber. It promotes responsible pet ownership practices and also the importance of looking after out pets.

Recent data shows that 1,200 dogs were relinquished last year, and the Dogs Trust's report concerned a 47 per cent increase in dogs entering their care due to the cost-of-living crisis, highlighting the importance that it does play in understanding the cost of a dog and responsible dog ownership. By celebrating these extraordinary dogs that we have here in the Senedd, we hope to inspire a culture of responsible pet ownership and a deeper appreciation of the well-being of all animals, great and small. With the judging and results happening tomorrow, may the most deserving dog be crowned Senedd dog of the year.

Thank you.

Item 6 is a debate on a Member's legislative proposal: a Bill for political education. I call on Sioned Williams to move the motion.

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. Well, it's a time of electoral reform. We've recently passed a historic piece of legislation that will ensure that the Senedd is, at last, fit for purpose and better serves the people of Wales. Wales has shown that it can lead the way in terms of democracy. We will be the first nation in the United Kingdom to move to a fully proportional method for electing the Members of our Senedd, and we have already, of course, delivered votes for 16 and 17-year-olds in Welsh elections.

However, creating the systems and structures to ensure effective democracy is just one part of the process of reform, because, during all of the debates that we've held on any aspect of electoral reform, one key issue, and what it represents, continues to raise its head: turnout. If we believe in delivering the best possible democracy for Wales, we cannot sit back and accept that the number of people who vote to choose their representatives in this Senedd is consistently below half the total number of voters in Wales. We must take steps to change this, and that is what has inspired me to table this motion before you today, which offers one way to resolve this issue.

The call for better political education is not new. A petition calling for it was submitted in the fifth Senedd. The previous Youth Parliament had discussed and expressed concern on the matter, and numerous reports and research papers have found that there's a lack of awareness of and a lack of opportunities for young people to learn about politics. And this is preventing them from having a voice in their nation's journey. I myself introduced a short debate on this subject two years ago. But despite the efforts of the Government and others, the problem hasn't been solved. So, I feel that it's high time, timely and indeed crucial now that the Government acts on this, and education is the most effective way of delivering that change.

What my motion seeks to achieve, of course, is inextricably linked to the new Curriculum for Wales and its framework, and I'm sure that the Minister will underline this in responding to the debate. This is certainly a step forward from the previous regime, which provided opportunities for learners to explore politics through the Welsh baccalaureate and personal and social education—it offered opportunities, but did not guarantee them, and neither was there consistency in what was being provided in every school in Wales. I welcome the fact that learning about citizenship and governance systems is an element in the mandatory humanities area of learning and experience in the new curriculum. But we must go further, because the problem, as with so many Government policies, lies in the implementation gap.

We can't ignore the calls that have been made by young people themselves, as well as in the recommendations of reports, such as the report by the Independent Commission on the Constitutional Future of Wales, which found a need for the provision of political education to be more consistent and comprehensive to enable our citizens to understand how policy ideas, ideology and governance systems create the society and the world of which they are part.

So, one thing I would like to see is the Curriculum and Assessment (Wales) Act 2021 being amended to ensure that the curriculum provides specifically for political education. Clarity on the current areas of learning and experience outlined in the Act could be provided by amending the what matters statements or the statutory guidance, through regulation, as happened in June of last year, of course, in the case of the history of Wales and its place in the world. The aim of a political education Bill would therefore be to ensure that Welsh Ministers took such steps.

These steps could include making specific political education a key concept within the humanities area of learning and experience—a statement of what matters. It could also be made explicit in the statutory guidance what elements in particular a learner should have the opportunity to learn and how. Or, of course, political education could be made a mandatory element of the curriculum on the face of the Bill, as with relationships and sexuality education, and religion, values and ethics.

A Bill would also provide an opportunity to tackle the lack of confidence amongst educators in terms of presenting political education, because the vast majority of our educators, of course, haven't received any political education themselves. The Bill could also ensure that learners continue to develop their knowledge through the post-16 curriculum, and indeed people of all ages, through community education and education in the workplace.

So, the curriculum isn't the only way to present political education. In response to my short debate, the Counsel General mentioned the investment through the engagement with democracy grant in projects such as the Politics Project, which is operational in a number of our education settings. But projects like this, although effective in empowering some groups of young people, are a bit of a postcode lottery, according to the Electoral Reform Society. And in response to a written question in March, the previous education Minister noted that the Politics Project hopes to engage with 4,000 young people. We must remember that there are almost 470,000 learners in our schools.

Nor could I find any evaluation of the engagement with democracy grant. Although the grant's website states that successful applicants will join the Wales democratic engagement partnership, I have been unable to find any information about the partnership's membership, nor any mention of its meetings or work, and there is no comprehensive list of the projects that have benefited. So, I would appreciate an update from the Minister on these issues in her response.

Aristotle said:

'If liberty and equality, as is thought by some, are chiefly to be found in democracy, they will be best attained when all persons alike share in government to the utmost.'

If people can be better equipped to understand how they can have an influence—not just in terms of how laws are made, but how to change them—it could be transformational for our society and our nation. We must ensure that future generations can fully participate in the Wales of the future. There are many ways to ensure the education that we need to deliver this, and I look forward to hearing contributors' ideas on how this could happen. Thank you.

Can I thank Sioned Williams for bringing this legislative proposal to the Senedd? I think it's vitally important that this Senedd has a function where Members from across the Chamber can bring forward individual legislative proposals. It may be that a legislative proposal on political education and interest in elections may be more topical than you realised, I'm sure, when you tabled the debate, based on some of the things we're seeing in the news today. But in turn as well, I think it's important that the Welsh Government takes those legislative proposals from Members seriously and considers how and whether their asks can be implemented. That's what we've done as Welsh Conservatives, looking at this debate today and the Member's proposal, and I think that there are a number of aims that we can support.

So, for example, we agree that too few people in Wales truly understand which issues are devolved to this Senedd and which issues are reserved to the UK Government. That's not just an issue, though, for our young people; it's an issue across our society in Wales. But sometimes I find that our younger people are some of the most politically informed citizens in our democracy. Any time I visit a school in Wales, they often have views, suggestions and knowledge that exceed what you might find on the street when it comes to political issues. So, I'm less convinced that our schools are best placed to deliver that message.

I'm uncomfortable with the position we might put our teachers in, where they might have to walk a political tightrope, giving equal balance to viewpoints—to both their own views and some that they may not personally share. And what happens when our teachers say something that may be entirely innocent in order to provoke political discussion in the classroom and a parent makes a complaint? And what happens when, in the course of a normal political debate, a pupil in the class shares a viewpoint that is considered unacceptable by some of their peers? We could be in the unfortunate position of seeing our teaching staff accused of political bias, for example, and in a highly charged political atmosphere where some facts are even disputed these days, I'm unsure how comfortable I am with putting our teachers in that position. And would parents have the right to remove their children from this form of education if they were uncomfortable with how it was being taught? These are all live matters, and I hope to hear the Member consider these in responding to the debate.

My view is that politics is best left to the politicians, and wider engagement by all of us in our schools, helping to facilitate debate and discussion on a genuine cross-party basis is critical if we're to be able to get this right. Where I do, however, have some sympathy with the proposal by the Member is that I'm growing increasingly concerned with the amount of misinformation our young people are becoming exposed to via the sources that they disproportionately access in the modern world. I'm someone—

Will you take an intervention?

Yes, sure.

Forgive me, sorry, I just wanted to check the etymology on that; I did remember it correctly. Are you aware that the 'politic', the idea of politics, the meaning of that comes from the idea of 'citizen'? So, it's meant to be about people. Just challenging what you were just saying about politics being for politicians.

Sorry, I assume it was when I said that politics is best left to politicians. 

Yes.

Yes, so in response to that, what I would say to you, Delyth, is that what I didn't mean was that, obviously, politicians are the only ones who can have views on politics—of course not—but where those views are brought forward, they're better brought forward by politicians, rather than by teachers trying to speak on behalf of others.

So, just to return very quickly, because I'm aware of time, Dirprwy Lywydd, to this issue of misinformation, which I do think is important, and I think the Member does make a good point in terms of the legislative proposal she is bringing forward. I am someone who uses TikTok. I use it fairly regularly, and I think we need to be where young people are. If we're on about engaging young people, talking in a vacuum doesn't do any of us any favours. The problem is that some of these platforms, and TikTok is one of them, use algorithms to tailor content aimed at its users. That, in turn, without question, creates echo chambers and filter bubbles, which only serve to reinforce existing political beliefs, and other perspectives are minimised, with users believing that their narrow viewpoints are everybody's views because they are the only opinions that they're often subjected to. And we know that misinformation and disinformation can run rife on these platforms, so we need to strongly consider—I am wrapping up, Dirprwy Lywydd—how we use our education system to encourage our young people to properly use sources and to be able to differentiate between fact and opinion, and not confuse one for the other, and that is an area that I think we can all agree needs proper attention from the Welsh Government. Diolch. 

I'm delighted that Sioned has brought this motion before us today, and I think it's extremely important. It is the most important thing we should be doing, in my view. One of the elements of this role that I enjoy most is visiting schools and colleges, further education and higher education, or welcoming learners to the Senedd and discussing politics with them. And for anyone who thinks young people aren't interested in politics, well, come to one of those sessions. The questions that they ask us are very challenging indeed and they are numerous, and the natural curiosity of children and young people and their honesty is something that I very much appreciate in these sessions. 

I was an enthusiastic supporter of giving votes to 16 and 17-year-olds, and I was disappointed that there wasn't a higher percentage that took the opportunity to use that vote. But it's important that we don't mistake a lack of participation for a lack of interest. I have spoken to a number of people who didn't vote, and their reasons for not doing so are varied. Many had failed to register in time, which is a practical barrier. Not every school was proactive. Some were from families where nobody voted; nobody had ever voted within their family, so they weren't supported in doing so. But the most common factor I heard was that they didn't know enough about the parties to make a decision, and therefore they feared making the wrong choice. And I was trying to tell them, 'Well, do you know how many older people don't think at all before casting their vote? You're thinking about it and taking it seriously.' But they want that information.

And that's one of the things that I think is extremely important in this motion is securing that consistency, because in some schools this is done excellently, and then you see that in those people who put themselves forward to be Members of the Youth Parliament or those who campaign on various issues. In other schools, teachers don't feel confident, and therefore they fear addressing the topic. They make reference to it, but the consistency isn’t there.

I think it’s extremely important that we do provide the tools for our teachers to do this effectively. They are so busy; we know that teachers’ workload is great. It’s not fair to ask them to do research into every party. We need a consistency here. I think it’s not just them as individuals who will benefit, but this Parliament in the future will benefit too. We want a more representative Senedd. We need everyone to feel part of our democracy. We want everyone to feel that their voice counts and that there is a value to their opinion. That’s where consistency is important.

When I was in school, I was there during the 1997 referendum, and rather than encouraging us to have discussions, one of my teachers stopped us discussing politics in the sixth form, saying that it was too contentious an issue. That still happens with some topics. We want a modern Wales. We need a voice for our young people. This is a way of achieving that, and I fully support your motion.

I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Education, Lynne Neagle.

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. Can I thank Sioned Williams for bringing forward this debate on political education? Preparing our children and young people for active engagement in society is hugely important to the health of our democracy. I want to see all our children and young people develop as ethical, informed citizens who can understand and exercise their democratic rights and responsibilities.

Now that we have extended the vote to 16 and 17-year-olds for Senedd and local government elections, this work is more important than ever. They have a voice in the decisions that affect their lives, their communities and their futures. Our responsibility is to help them find that voice and use it. This is why learning about citizenship and politics is mandatory in the Curriculum for Wales. One of the four purposes of our curriculum is to develop learners as ethical, informed citizens of Wales and the world, who are confident to engage with contemporary issues and challenges.

In the humanities area of learning, the mandatory statements of what matters are explicit about learning to be active, informed and responsible citizens, about participation, governance and political processes, and learning to justify decisions when acting politically. Schools are expected to develop teaching about political awareness as part of their curriculum from early years right through to 16.

Since the roll-out of the Curriculum for Wales, we have worked with our partners to develop a range of materials to support teachers to deliver this. The resources developed by The Politics Project for primary, secondary and learners with additional learning needs allow learners to understand a range of governance systems and how people are represented at local, national and global levels.

I was lucky enough to be part of The Politics Project's digital dialogue programme, as I know the Member bringing this debate forward has been as well. Through these sessions, learners are brought together with their local councillors and Members of the Senedd to have open, meaningful conversations about the issues that matter to them. I was delighted to discuss a wide range of issues with students from West Monmouth School and to hear their unique views and perspectives. They were incredibly engaged and well-informed.

We also commissioned the Association for Citizenship Teaching to build practitioners’ confidence in having impartial discussions with learners aged 14 to 16 on why they should register to vote in Senedd and local government elections. These materials are now available to help all teachers to understand the legislative process and governmental structures and to deal with controversial topics impartially and sensitively. The WJEC have also produced a resource pack on political literacy as part of the global citizenship challenge. This includes activities that enable learners to develop an understanding of political systems in Wales, the UK and around the world.

To support 16 and 17-year-olds voting for the first time in the last Senedd election, we’ve produced the Vote2Voice resource to help schools and wider settings like youth clubs educate young people on the importance of voting. Vote2Voice introduces topics like registering and voting through games and materials that inspire young people to talk about the issues they care about and why they should register to vote. Supporting our children and young people to learn about the political processs, become active citizens and find their voice is crucial to me and to this Government.

The Independent Commission on the Constitutional Future of Wales highlighted the importance of civic education to the health of our democracy. This Government and the Senedd have endorsed the commission's recommendations in full, and work is under way to deliver on this important agenda. We already have the legislation in place through the Curriculum and Assessment (Wales) Act 2021 to ensure children and young people have political education, and Members will be aware of the Elections and Elected Bodies (Wales) Bill, which will ensure a Welsh elections information platform is created to provide young people and their teachers with information about elections and electoral processes, further removing barriers to participation. For these reasons, we don't believe that a further Bill is necessary. Diolch.

I call on Sioned Williams to reply to the debate.

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd, and thank you to everyone who has contributed.

I'll start with Tom.

'Politics is best left to the politicians.'

Oh, Tom. I completely agree with you that teaching staff need better support. We need to empower them to feel confident, and I pointed that out in my initial contribution. But as Delyth rightly pointed out—. I'll give you some etymology as well: democracy. Democracy comes, of course, from the Greek demos, meaning 'people', and kratos, meaning 'power'. If we want the best democracy possible for Wales, it's got to be the most inclusive, the most reflective of, the most responsive to the most people, and this happens by involving the most people in our political and electoral system.

Thanks, Heledd. I agree entirely in terms of the engagement sessions. They're inspirational. I was with Cwmfelin Primary School year 6, this morning, from Maesteg. The questions I received from them were excellent, but I agree entirely with you we do tend to see the same schools. The same teachers arrange hustings when it comes to elections. Perhaps we'll have ones soon in our local schools for the Westminster elections. It does depend on the interest and the confidence of the teachers in those schools, and on the culture.

Thank you very much. Would you accept that one of the big challenges is the cost of coming to the Senedd? We have seen cuts and there are challenges facing schools now, and we must look at how we ensure that costs with buses and so on are not a barrier to any schools to visit this Senedd.

I agree with you entirely on that. And to the Minister, I would say this:

It's all good stuff, and I mentioned a lot of the things that I said I was praising in the curriculum and The Politics Project, although perhaps I can write to you or the Counsel General about getting an evaluation on some of that, because I know there's been underspend year after year, and it isn't clear to me exactly what value we're getting. We know, with the 16 and 17-year-olds' first election in 2021—of course, it was COVID, which disrupted a lot of plans—there's been evaluation of that, and research to show that that wasn't a strong enough scaffold to support that reform. So, my argument is that we don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater, but we need something more defined, more definitive, if we want to really tackle this subject.

I just want to leave you with this. Two former members of the Youth Parliament commented on my proposal today, so I would just like to, very quickly, if I may, Dirprwy Lywydd, quote what they both told me. Leaola Roberts-Biggs said:

'Young people should not be left uniformed about politics and Welsh democracy. A young person wouldn’t be expected to choose a qualification...a job or an apprenticeship without having background knowledge and research, so why should they be expected to vote on something that also would affect their future without providing a basic level of knowledge and understanding first?'

This is something that you referred to, Heledd.

And then, Rhys Rowlandson said:

'I believe this bill is critical, because it is the crossover between school and the real world.'

And we talk a lot about that here, don't we?

'It is a logical continuation of Wales’ introduction of allowing 16- and 17-year-olds to have the vote.'

I just want to end by saying education is the foundation for the type of skills and knowledge we deem essential to the society we want to see and the Wales we want to forge. I do hope that Members will support my call for a better framework, a more consistent and complete provision to ensure a standardised, meaningful political education for all, starting with our youngest, but, yes, as I said, through society, as a basis of ensuring a Welsh democracy that we can truly call of the people, by the people, for the people. Diolch.

The proposal is to note the proposal. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes, there is objection. Therefore, we will defer voting on this item until voting time.

Item 7 is next, and it's a debate on the petition, 'We want the Welsh Government to rescind and remove the disastrous 20mph law'. To present this debate and to move the motion, the Chair of the committee, Jack Sargeant.

Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. On behalf of the Senedd's Petitions Committee, thank you for the opportunity to introduce this debate today on what has become the single biggest petition we have ever received. Presiding Officer, it's titled, and I quote, 'We want the Welsh Government to rescind and remove the disastrous 20mph law'. The petition was started by Mark Baker, and has a total of 469,571 signatures. Presiding Officer, that includes over 17,000 signatures in my own constituency of Alyn and Deeside. There has been an unprecedented response to this petition and I congratulate the petitioner for amassing the highest number of signatures this Senedd has ever seen.

It's a petition that has generated headlines and inspired other people to create their own petitions. There were twice as many petitions created in our system in the first week this petition started breaking records than we normally see in a month. Petitions provide an opportunity for people to bring their priorities to the attention of their parliament, and this petition quickly became a focal point for people who wanted to express their opposition to the policy. Our debate today gives the Parliament another chance to ask Government how they are responding to the concerns of thousands of people across Wales. Whilst this petition was the one that hoovered up the signatures, it is one of dozens on the central theme of the default 20 mph limit on restricted roads in Wales. Presiding Officer, we've had petitions seeking a referendum, seeking exemptions on a particular stretch of trunk road and questioning the public confidence in Government and in devolution itself.

This is not the first time this issue has been debated in this Siambr. It is not even the first debate brought forward by the Petitions Committee. We debated a petition, 'Stop the change of speed limits to 20mph on 17th September' back in June 2023. There have been opposition day debates, and ministerial statements too. It is not an issue that has been ignored on the floor of this Parliament, but one that needs to be aired again. The last time a 20 mph speed limit petition was debated in this Chamber, I talked about the need for an exemptions process that gave power to residents to say where the policy wasn't working in their own communities. I am pleased to say that the recently appointed Cabinet Secretary for transport, Ken Skates, was listening and he has announced recently a review that clearly has a focus on making those changes.

From my own inbox, I can tell you this: residents have a real grip on the roads that are better suited to 30 mph than 20 mph. From the beginning of the trial in Buckley in my own constituency, I had people contacting me about a small number of main roads where they felt the policy just did not make sense. As I said in my speech in June 2023, those roads in Buckley, in particular the B5125 and A549, were those roads where residents felt that this policy did not work. There will be examples in every single community across Wales, and residents will have examples of their own.

Presiding Officer, I always refer to the petitions process as the people's process, and wherever you sit on this issue, Members should show real respect for the process and a petition that was so heavily supported by residents in Wales. I'm pleased to have the opportunity to open today's debate. I'm interested in all contributions from Members on all sides of this Chamber, and, in particular, the Minister's response, as I know in particular he recognises the importance of this petition. Diolch.

Can I thank the Chair of the Petitions Committee for bringing this important debate to the Chamber this afternoon? I'd like to start by taking a moment to thank Mark Baker, who created this petition, as well as every single person who has signed various petitions, including this one, attended protests, created campaign groups, written letters to their representatives and truly made their voices heard over this Labour, Plaid and Lib Dem 20 mph policy. Just shy of 500,000 people put their name to this petition to have the Welsh Labour Government's 20 mph speed limit project axed, smashing records to become the most signed petition of this Parliament's 25-year-old history. The sheer number of people who signed this petition in such a short space of time highlights the strength of feeling amongst the Welsh public towards this policy and, as the regional Member for South Wales East, I commend all of you, from every single corner of Wales, for your sheer dedication.

The frustration with this policy has stemmed from the fact it is draconian in every sense of the word. The consultation process has come after the policy was implemented, which is, quite frankly, the wrong way around. I've said it on many occasions, and many may boo and deny it, but this policy is poised to deliver a £9 billion blow to the economy. It's hampering our emergency services, it's hindering our public transport network and it's making Wales a less attractive place to live, work, visit and invest. In short, it's quite literally bringing Wales to a standstill.

My team and I have spoken with countless transport and road safety researchers, as well as experts, who have provided us with evidence accumulated over decades on accidents, common themes and ways in which Wales can be a safer place. They unanimously agree that a default 20 mph scheme is not the way forward. Based on correspondence from constituents across the country, they've all noticed a dramatic hike in road rage incidents, and there's a fear motorists are now spending too much time checking their speedometers.

Just days ago, a report was published casting serious doubt on the argument that 20 mph speed limits will, in fact, improve air quality. Now, it found that there was little difference in particulate matter, and nitrogen dioxide levels were higher in 20 mph zones. At 50 per cent of the locations monitored, it was deemed that air quality has, in fact, worsened. Having spoken with many mechanics and engine specialists about 20 mph, it seems to be broadly recognised that petrol and diesel vehicles reach what we call a sweet spot, where they're running most efficiently, hence produce less emissions than those at 20 mph. So, if you're driving at 20 mph, your car will probably be between second or third gear. Now, in second, the engine will be running at higher revolutions, burning more fuel, and, in third, well, it could be struggling to maintain this lower speed, hence it will be inefficient and produce more emissions, therefore shortening the lifespan of an engine over time.

I've said it on more occasions than one that there are alternatives to the Welsh Government's 20 mph policy. Yes, I totally agree, as well as my colleagues, that 20 mph should be kept outside schools, hospitals and areas of increased footfall, but the Welsh Government's current approach is just too extreme and unnecessary in so many cases. Since the new Government was formed in March this year, there has been a clear shift in rhetoric, with Ministers emphasising changes coming, almost like the holidays are coming, as we see at Christmas. The Welsh Government should, I believe, now—they have to listen to the concerns of the public and ditch this extremely divisive policy. There is real opportunity here today for the Government to show it is working for the people, by not dismissing this petition, and making genuine meaningful change. Thank you so much.

Signing petitions is a really important part of our modern democracy, and it is very welcome to see this level of interest in our politics. Llywydd, I'm going to read you a part of an amendment that I put to this Senedd last September. The amendment noted the importance of community support to any speed limit changes to ensure genuine concerns can be alleviated, and further noted more exemptions may be identified. It further called on the Welsh Government to continuously review the impact of new limits, to empower local authorities to make any further exemptions and provide local authorities with adequate funding to facilitate the introduction of new limits. Now, that amendment was passed. It's still not absolutely clear to me whether the Government acted on this, or how, because it seems the review that's been announced recently could have been kickstarted months ago—indeed, it was provided for.

There were problems with how this policy was implemented—they are well rehearsed. Many roads that should not be 20 mph have been wrongly designated as such, including trunk roads and places where there aren't houses on streets. That has eroded public support for this measure. It's been regrettable. But whilst the implementation of this plan was flawed, the idea behind the policy itself was not. The petition uses the word ‘disastrous’. Now, that is an emotive word. I’d like to share a story with the Senedd of a little girl who lived in a village near me when I was growing up. One day, she was in a parked car on one side of a residential street, and another family member was on the pavement opposite her. And she opened the car door and ran out into the road and was knocked down and killed by a car. Now, the poor driver didn’t have time to stop. I don’t think he was doing more than the speed limit at the time. But his life, and the lives of that family, were changed forever by that disastrous moment. Because here’s the thing: for those people arguing that the limit should only apply outside schools and hospitals—children don’t live in schools, children live on streets. They run into the road from their houses to pick up a ball, to run to their friends, to run to greet their mother or father who’s parked just across the street. We talk about ‘disastrous’; surely that is a word more fitting for the pain inflicted on a family that loses a child. The pain inflicted on a driver unlucky enough to have been driving a little faster than normal, whose life will also forever afterwards be tainted, be broken up into two parts—the part before they knocked down that child, and the part after it.

Now, this policy, implemented properly, not including trunk roads or places where there aren’t houses, but implemented in those places where children and cars are most likely to be together—that policy will save lives. It will stop avoidable disasters like what I’ve mentioned ruining people’s lives and ending the lives of children, and I will give way.

When you were speaking then I was taken back to Adam Price speaking in here when he talked about his cousin being killed. That brought a tear to my eye, and, I'm sure, to other people in here as well. I think that's something—. It's about real people getting killed. 

Diolch, Mike. I think it was Malcolm—for anyone who wasn’t in the Senedd, or anyone listening who hasn’t heard that contribution, Adam had spoken about his four or five-year-old cousin, I think, called Malcolm, who had run out—. I think his parents had been on a bus, and Malcolm had been on the other side of the street with his aunt, or another family member, and he had run across the street to say good night one more time to his parents, and that was it. Adam talked about—I’m sure he wouldn’t mind us rehearsing this—how, the next morning, his parents had had to sit him down on his bed and say that Malcolm bach had gone to be with God. And it’s those moments that, again, we are not talking about—. We talk about money that will be saved for the NHS, of course, in the long term from this policy, and of course there will be investment that has gone into this, and the money is vitally important. But children’s lives are something that you cannot put a price on, so thank you, Mike, for reminding us about that.

There are lessons the Government has to learn from how poorly this was implemented in places. But there are also lessons I would caution that others should learn in this place, about the effects that the language we use, and sometimes what we put up online, the targeting of individual Ministers, perhaps, that can court something perilous. I hope we can all learn lessons from this policy, perhaps learn to amend the way that we deal with these issues, to be motivated not to cause or whip up anger and rage, but to want to change things for the better. It is a quieter way of doing things. It might get fewer headlines, fewer hits on social media, but it might just get things done, and our constituents will thank us for that.

This issue has generated the largest ever Senedd petition and also substantial discussion in communities. One of the weaknesses of the petition system is that, after you sign, you cannot change your mind—or cannot change your mind easily. And some of my constituents who live on roads that used to be 20 mph discovered they didn't want them to go back to 30 mph, which they hadn't been for decades. Pre the 20 mph default limit, I regularly travelled around Swansea and found I needed to drive at no more than 20 mph on estate roads, when most are effectively single lanes with passing points in between parked cars, due to cars parked on both sides of the road. Areas of older terraced housing and council estates where houses don't have drives mean that people cannot drive safely at 30 mph. Even in newer estates, where there are drives, cars still park on the road, especially where drives are very steep.

Regarding the default 20 mph limit, several people contacted me opposing it. When I asked, 'Do you want a speed limit on your road to be turned to 30 mph?', almost without exception they said, 'You cannot increase it to 30 mph on this road—it would not be safe', despite the fact that it was 30 mph until 17 September. Remember all those 20 mph zones we used to have that seem to have been forgotten in this discussion? Also, we have in Swansea road humps, or speed cushions to give them their proper names, we have chicanes, side roads taking precedence over the main roads in places like Pen-y-lan Road and Delhi Street, all means of slowing down the traffic. 

The biggest cause for slowing traffic was and still is cars parked on both sides of the road, with gaps in the parked cars allowing traffic to pass. Last year I nearly had an accident in Pleasant Street where my office is situated. Pleasant Street, like lots of roads, consists of terraced housing with no off-street parking. It is essentially a one-lane road with passing places in-between the parked cars. A car drove up at 30 mph, which was inside the speed limit. I was travelling down about 15 mph, and we stopped about a metre apart. If we'd both been doing 30 mph, a head-on collision would have been inevitable. 

One of the most vociferous opponents of the 20 mph default limit in my constituency suggested that Heol Fach in Treboeth should be 30 mph, with all the traffic calming removed. I contacted residents of that street and two residents were so incensed that they canvassed the street and no-one agreed with him, including people living in his own house. From talking to people, 90 per cent of people support 90 per cent of 20 mph roads. I have had someone tell me, 'I'm an experienced driver and I drive to road conditions—I don't need any speed limit.' Another told me that death and serious injury is a price worth paying to travel at 30 mph. A third said if children were killed or injured, it was their fault. Most ludicrous was the person who told me that 30 mph is suitable for a road of less than 30m length. 

A default limit of 20 mph should not be a problem. It's only become a problem because of the highly restrictive guidance from the Welsh Government. There are anomalies. I make the following suggestions: for A roads and B roads, speed limits are left to the total discretion of local councils, with no Welsh Government guidance. The road system consists of A roads that are the major roads intended to provide large-scale transport links within or between areas. B roads are roads intended to connect different areas and to feed traffic between A roads and smaller roads. 

Now, all A roads don't need to go back to 30 mph; I'm sure the Presiding Officer would be upset if the road to Aberaeron went back to 30 mph, because you're going basically through a shopping area. Most roads are unclassified as smaller roads intended to connect unclassified roads and connecting A and B roads. I also suggest that 75 per cent of people living in a street can request the speed limit on the street they live on to increase, a reversal of what we've previously had with roads to 20 mph. I do not expect many residents to want that to happen. Get the A and B roads right and most of the opposition will disappear. 

Will you take an intervention? 

Certainly. 

I absolutely agree with your analysis about the implementation, and Delyth Jewell mentioned it as well, but the legacy of what the former Deputy Minister, Lee Waters, introduced is a legacy that will be sustained—a legacy of safety and saving lives. And I think while we're critical perhaps of some of the implementation, we should also recognise the political bravery of the former Minister who has set up a policy that will have a legacy, and has done that with courage and with determination. 

Thank you, Hefin, and I think I did say 90 per cent of people support the speed limit being reduced on 90 per cent of roads. 

But just finally, on road accidents, they have serious consequences. I know that Delyth and I discussed somebody who'd lost a cousin and parents who'd lost a child. The latest figures I have access to are from 2020. In 2020 police forces in Wales recorded a total of 2,864 road accidents involving personal injury, with 3,692 casualties. Twenty-two per cent of the reported road accidents resulted in at least one casualty. Of these, 72 people were killed, 747 were seriously injured and 2,873 were slightly injured. If any other thing was happening in Wales where 70-plus people were being killed year on year, action would be taken, and now we have action being taken it's about really now getting it right.

One of the things that has struck me the most throughout this whole debate is how surprised the Welsh Government has been at the level of public anger and resentment there has been regarding the 20 mph roll-out. For months and months leading up to it, there has been huge public opposition to this policy, which this Labour Government has wilfully ignored, and this is the reason that this petition has broken our records at almost 500,000 signatures. It is because the Welsh public not only feel that you are implementing a policy that they fundamentally disagree with, but that you're doing it in spite of them as well. As we all agree, there is an almost universal acknowledgement that 20 mph limits need to be set around schools, playgrounds and areas of high pedestrian traffic, like our town centres, but implementing a 20 mph speed limit on roads that do not fit this criteria is ludicrous. Not only is it unenforceable without an extensive network of speed cameras—

Are you giving way, Joel James?

No. Let me carry on first and then I'll—. Speed bumps and chicanes, but I would also argue that it actually increases the likelihood of dangerous driving, because people become frustrated and take greater risks, overtaking in dangerous conditions and rushing to make up for lost time. As we have also seen, 20 mph speed limits do not significantly reduce the number of crashes, casualty rates or average traffic speeds. I am sure Members from the opposing benches will argue that a reduction in speed from 30 mph to 20 mph is designed to reduce casualty rates. And whilst we all welcome that objective, the data doesn't suggest that there will be fewer crashes and fatalities because of the reduction.

Firstly, over the last 20 years, there's been a huge decline in the number of crashes on Welsh roads, from around 10,000 per year in 1993 to around 2,700 in 2022. And this will no doubt have been because of the improvements in car safety, car braking systems and traffic management in areas of existing high collisions. Secondly, data shows that most accidents are caused by failing to look properly, a loss of control of the vehicle, and being reckless or in a hurry, thus I have serious doubts that reducing speeds on 30 mph roads to 20 mph will have much of an impact on those existing reasons.

Moreover, whilst evidence may show that reducing speed from 30 mph to 20 mph decreases certain pollutants, may I remind Members in this Chamber that this only applies when the traffic is smooth flowing? Twenty mile an hour speed limits have been shown to cause an increase in the amount that traffic stops and restarts, and evidence has shown that this actually causes considerably more pollution to be released into the atmosphere, especially from HGV vehicles, which dump out more particulates every time they rev the engine to move.

One of my biggest concerns—and I'm sure it's a concern of many people across this Chamber, and the greater Welsh public—is the cost this policy is having on our economy. Slowing down travel has a big impact on the ability of people to get to work, to get to school, on businesses dispatching and delivering their goods, and on people being able to access services. And it is a genuine and legitimate worry that the Government has already recognised that this could cost the Welsh economy billions of pounds in the years ahead, yet they're still intent on pushing this policy through.

Llywydd, I feel it's almost like Welsh Labour deliberately want the Welsh economy to fail. This Welsh Government is so detached and so determined to justify its own existence that they refuse to acknowledge the enormity of the economic impact it is having. They slander those who disagree by claiming that we must want to see people hurt and killed, and they deliberately ignore public resentment towards this policy. This policy is flawed, and I believe that this Welsh Labour Government is too afraid that they've got it wrong—[Interruption.] With this in mind, I fully support this petition. I fully—

Are you giving way, Joel James?

I fully support this petition, I fully support the petitioners, and I fully support the vast majority of this country that want to see this scrapped. Thank you.

As a town and community councillor, one of the common complaints I received was about speeding. Implementing the default 20 mph has definitely made drivers more conscious of their speed, and walking along our highways feels safer and more peaceful.

When I was a cabinet member for highways at Flintshire County Council, I had requests for 20 mph zones to be introduced, as they had been across the border in England. These requests were mainly for Saltney, where a child had been hit by a speeding vehicle at Mynydd Isaf. I knew, from what was proposed in the previous Senedd, that there was legislation coming, and suggested that we wait for it. We carried out a speed limit review about nine years ago in Flintshire; it took five years, and, even then, there were anomalies that had to be worked through. It was a lengthy process. And that's how long it can take with proper consultation, advertising of traffic regulation orders and maps, responding to objections, support and suggestions, and police data is also important. The process is resource intensive and we have a shortage of highway technical officers as well as operatives to implement signage. It's the same when doing any safer routes in the community or active travel schemes: it's all labour intensive. Often, people request traffic calming and double yellow lines to address speeding and parking, but, when they're in place, they realise the implications and they do not like them, so we have to make sure that they are actually what people do really want.

With any big change, we need to take people along with us, with proper partnership working, including local authorities, councillors and officers who have the expertise. If they raise issues, we should listen and work with them, and I'm glad that's happening now, going forward. The majority of people living on 20 mph roads want to keep it now. Councillors were consulted during the initial implementation. They asked residents they represented who lived along the roads, and hardly any were put forward for exemptions, because of liability and previous issues with speeding.

However, we need to look at making some of the arterial roads back up. I met with Arriva and the Road Haulage Association. Reduced speeds have impacted on bus punctuality and businesses, so we need to look at the cumulative impact of policies such as the 20 mph roll-out, designated cycle routes, bus lanes, on road users, road haulage and public bus transport. The biggest problem has been the density criterion, where there are more than 20 houses within 1km. This has been accepted by the 20 mph task group and Welsh Government officials as too restrictive, capturing more routes than necessary. Having to evidence that a road is not used by walkers and cyclists is also too resource heavy, and there is the concern of liability should there be an accident if the speed limit is increased. North Wales has a lot of ribbon development along arterial routes and inter-urban connectivity, and all councils except Gwynedd applied this criteria strictly, for the above reasons, which is why there are fewer exemptions in north Wales. It's been suggested that we should only have 20 mph on estate roads, but many people live on main roads, there are play areas, pedestrian crossings and schools, and most accidents actually do occur in these areas.

Moving forward, I know some north Wales councils have a list of approximately 25 roads to be made up. They're just waiting for the new guidance to be issued, because they don't want to have to do two traffic regulation orders. They have now provided an e-mail address—traffic@ and then the name of that local authority—where residents can put forward suggestions, moving forward, on where roads should be returned to 30 mph, as part of the consultation, and I welcome that.

Residents should also suggest where some areas should be included for a reduction, as there have been some anomalies in that way, because there are no street lights or houses on both sides, but they are a main riding or walking or cycling route, such as by the riding for the disabled in Llanfynydd, where there's a blind summit and it's used by walkers and active travel, by Alyn Waters and in Tywyn by the caravan parks and funfair by Tir Prince. Arriva are also putting forward suggested roads that could be made up.

Hopefully, once this happens, with a pragmatic approach and some consensus, amendments can be done under one TRO and there will be improvements for everyone. 

Will you take an intervention, Carolyn?

I've just finished. [Laughter.]

The subject of this debate is certainly a topic that has impacted so many people, and from so many walks of life. This default 20 mph policy has infuriated and mobilised people like never before, and, as we've heard, almost 0.5 million people have signed this petition—the largest in Senedd history—and I thank them for coming forward and doing that.

Now, I know that the Wales Government and the new Cabinet Secretary are desperately trying to undo some of the harm that has been done, but as my father used to say, 'It's difficult to make a silk purse out of a pig's ear.' The fundamental issue 0.5 million people had was the default being changed to 20 mph, which, it seems, will remain the default speed limit here in Wales.

Let's be clear: I don't think anybody—. I can't think of anybody who is against 20 mph zones where needed. Those are obvious places that we've all talked about many times. Indeed, these zones are nothing new; we travel through them all the time. I oversaw many of these in my own county around schools over many years, so it's not new. My contention has always been the heavy-handed approach by the Wales Government towards this policy; I thought it was wrong.

If more 20 mph zones were needed, these should have evolved through working closely with local authorities, allowing locally elected councillors to make local decisions in consultation with local communities. [Interruption.] Yes, I certainly will.

Do you accept, though, that it would have been an extortionate sum of money to do it on a bit-by-bit basis, as opposed to having a framework decided by the Welsh Government, with local authorities given the authority to make specific decisions?

Jenny, you spent an absolute fortune on this, and you're going to spend an absolute fortune on trying to reverse it. If the £30 million had been worked with local authorities to encourage them to do more, to roll that out further, more of those could have been put in place, and it wouldn't have cost this sort of money. So, the money's already been committed, and it could have been done a lot cheaper.

As I said, this policy has wreaked havoc across Wales, not least in my own constituency. The combination of a lack of road infrastructure and the 20 mph speed limit has certainly impacted traffic in Chepstow, which I've spoken to in this Chamber before, where we see vast quantities of traffic heading to and from the M4 via the M48, which has now been restricted. The trunk road's been restricted to 20 mph in a place where we need traffic to be free flowing. Not only is this disruption bad for both businesses and commuters, but it also severely increases air pollution, which goes against the rationale of the Welsh Government's regulations surrounding speed limits in other areas of the country. The fact is that Transport for Wales’s own report found that air quality in two locations was improved, while two locations saw a lowering in air quality, thereby providing that the data just isn't there to back up the claims that this default speed limit is net positive.

The damage does not end there. I have been contacted by logistics professionals concerned that independent HGV contractors are concerned to take on work in Wales now due to fears of unwittingly incurring points, which affects their insurance. We've heard stories of bus routes being cancelled and we've heard of emergency service concerns. We've also heard genuine concerns that this policy has already—and it's factually already—damaging our vital and delicate tourism sector here in Wales, where visitors are anxious about visiting Wales due to fears, again, that they unwittingly pick up points.

Now, I'm glad that the Welsh Government had taken some steps to try to mitigate the policy. However, as I said, the Cabinet Secretary for transport has said that scrapping the 20 mph default would be a travesty. The fact is that, by the Welsh Government's own admission, the default 20 mph speed limit will cost the Welsh Government economy circa £9 billion, with local authorities already paid £33 million to implement these changes, and we are yet to see clear evidence that there will be savings to the NHS of £92 million a year via this policy. I will repeat: these benches believe in implementing 20 mph speed limits where it's sensible to do so—outside schools, hospitals, care homes, residential areas—[Interruption.] Yes. Sorry, Lee.

I just want to test you on that, because I'm not sure that the difference between us is that great. So, two years ago, when we voted on this, your spokesperson said you supported it outside hospitals; our guidance says 'with 100m of hospitals'. You said 'schools and playgrounds'; the guidance says 'any education setting'. You said 'high streets'; the guidance says, 'close to retail premises'. You say 'places of worship and places where other vulnerable road users may be encountered'; the guidance says 'close to community centres and residential premises'. In truth, there's very little between us, apart from the rhetoric.

But the reality is, Lee, you know that 97 per cent of roads that were 30 mph were turned to 20 mph. You're not telling me that 97 per cent of roads in 30 mph are around all of those positions. You imposed—[Interruption.] Hang on. You imposed 20 mph in areas that were not linked to those areas and, since, we've seen those being undone in certain areas, like Monmouthshire, and they will be undone, hopefully, in other areas. Sorry, yes.

I think what the former Minister is forgetting is that parts of Wales are very, very different. There are many parts of my own constituency, a very rural constituency, where 30 mph zones are now 20 mph, and they're in none of those categories that you referred to. And it makes absolutely no sense. It might be the case that, in some parts of Wales, what you've outlined are a large part of the areas that make up some of the definitions that you refer to, but that's not the case in many parts of Wales, particularly in rural Wales.

Llywydd, I'm conscious I need to finish, but I'll repeat that these benches believe in implementing 20 mph speed limits where it's sensible to do so—as I said, all of those things we already know. For the good of Wales, its economy, and in response to nearly 0.5 million Welsh citizens, the Welsh Government must finally listen to the calls. And let's get Wales moving again. Thank you.

A protest of this size should make us pause and reflect—and it has. Although the petition itself is unfortunately full of misunderstandings and misinformation, that's not really the point. Hundreds of thousands of people put their names to it, and it made us sit up and take notice.

Now, of course we expected pushback, but the intensity of it was greater than we anticipated. Thankfully, things have now settled down, and we now know that 97 per cent of the people who signed the petition did so in the first two weeks after the speed limit changed, when the signs were still going up, in some places. But we listened to the protest and we acted. We launched a review, earlier than planned, into how the speed limit was being implemented. And far from marking our own homework, as we were accused, the initial report from the review panel was pretty blunt. It said there were things that the Welsh Government should have done differently, that I should have done differently, and that local councils should have done differently—and I accept that. The review said that the communications campaign came too late, there wasn't enough support and buy-in from across the Welsh Government to prepare for the change, and there was poor consultation by councils with their communities. And I agree with all of that.

And I don't think it's a coincidence that the areas where most people signed the petition were the areas where their councils made the fewest exceptions. In his letter to council leaders last week, the Cabinet Secretary said it had become clear to him that in many areas only a handful of changes will be made, whereas in other places more roads are likely to revert to 30 mph, and I think that's right. I expect we'll see most changes in north Wales, where the councils there implemented the fewest changes the first time around, and that's despite the now infamous scheme in Flintshire that Jack Sargeant reminded us of, which highlighted the importance of genuine consultation and flexibility of approach.

Would you take an intervention?

Yes.

Thank you. What was the reason for that then? Because, when you were in post as Deputy Minister, I asked you many, many times why you thought it was the case that in my local authority, Denbighshire County Council, exemption rates were 0.6 per cent, and neighbouring counties were significantly higher, and counties in south Wales were even higher than that. So, what is the essential reason behind that?

Well, you should read the report published by the panel—and I believe the final report is out shortly—which goes into it in detail, but essentially a decision was made by the local authority officers that they wanted to stick to the letter of the guidance and didn't want to review it for a year to give it time to bed in. As local highway authorities, that is their choice. The guidance was flexible enough for them to exercise that judgment. And it's no surprise that nearly a quarter of the people who signed the petition are from north Wales.

But listening and learning is not failure. It sometimes takes more than one go to get things right, and as I said at the outset, a change of this scale, of this complexity, implemented across 22 different local authorities, in an era of austerity and hollowed-out staffing, was always going to be tricky. And perhaps the trickiest part was the cultural change this represented, which we definitely underestimated.

We have a deep-seated culture of car dominance in our country—what researchers from Swansea University's psychology department have called 'motonormativity'—where people have an in-built acceptance of the harms from motor vehicles that they would not accept in other parts of life. That makes any challenge to car dominance very hard to do, and that's why it's usually avoided. Lowering the speed limit challenged the sense of entitlement that some drivers have developed over decades that they should be able to go fast, regardless of the impact on the people living on those streets and the children playing on them—or, more accurately, the children not playing on them because it didn't feel safe to do so.

And we've seen culture warriors here and elsewhere seize on the issue to create conflict in communities, and we've seen deliberate misinformation and false descriptions, like 'blanket', designed to deliberately sow confusion. And our evidence-based, modestly funded information campaign was simply drowned out. We lost the comms war. And it's been rough on everyone on the front line of this bold policy.

So, to everyone in a public-facing role who has faced the wrath and abuse that has come with this big change—the local government officers, local councillors, community campaigners, Senedd Members and MPs, to the police and the fire service—can I say 'thank you'? We should all be proud of the fact that the policy is working. Speeds are down. People are driving slower. Despite the criminal damage, the misinformation, the aggressive driving and tailgating and the protests and the petition, average speeds are down: 4 mph slower in the first few months, in the last data we have, and for every drop in the average speed limit of 1 mph, casualties are estimated to fall by 6 per cent. [Interruption.] I don't have time, I'm afraid. That's fewer heartbroken families, fewer lives destroyed, fewer people filling up A&E and consultant waiting lists, and fewer people who feel unsafe in their own communities. I'm not sure what price you can put on that, to be honest.

Has the implementation been perfect? Of course it hasn't. It was never going to be. The reality is there just was not enough capacity and resources at the Welsh Government end nor at the local government end to do everything we wished to. Has it been universally welcomed? Of course it hasn't. It was never going to be. But while we hear from the objectors, we tend not to hear so much from the supporters, and I think it's significant that councils were telling us all along that they received very few examples of people who thought the speed on their own street was too low.

Llywydd, mistakes were made, particularly in not doing genuine consultations in communities and in the uneven and inflexible way the guidance was interpreted in some parts of Wales, and I'm prepared to accept my part in all that. But let the two thirds of the Members of the Senedd who supported a default 20 mph speed limit remember this: people are alive today because of this law. Together, we have saved lives.

Can I start by thanking the nearly 0.5 million people across Wales who signed the petition? And can I draw Members' particular attention to the protestors who are here today in the Senedd Chamber, who have joined us? They have been here month after month, in the rain and in the sunshine, and I know that Natasha Asghar and I have been out there on every occasion to meet with them, and I know that other Members have joined them as well. And thank you for making your voices heard by coming to the Senedd today.

We need to consider why, I think. We need to consider why have 0.5 million people across Wales made the effort to go online to sign a petition against a change in speed limits on our roads. And there are lots of reasons for that, and many of them I won't have the time to get into in today's debate, but I think this can be encapsulated by saying it is a classic example of Government overreach. It has been typical of the way, over the last 25 years of this Welsh Labour Government, that it very often doesn't trust people in their communities to make decisions for themselves. We've seen a centralised 'we know best' approach from the Welsh Labour Government, taking decisions for the whole of Wales—[Interruption.] I will shortly. Taking decisions for the whole of Wales, sometimes for roads hundreds of miles away from Cardiff Bay, where clearly local people know best. Hefin.

I just want to reflect on the speech made by Lee Waters. He's acknowledged some of the things that weren't done right, he's acknowledged the strength of feeling, and I think he's made a superb speech that acknowledges what went wrong and that the future can be different because of what the Cabinet Secretary is going to say.

Thank you very much for that intervention. I can't say I agree with your assessment of the former Deputy Minister's speech, but what I will say is that I heard him say there that, yes, technically councils can take these decisions, but the councils were clear themselves that the initial roll-out of the scheme meant that the decision wasn't theirs. Swansea Council, for example, in my region, couldn't have been clearer, when they said on their website that 

'Councils had very limited discretion to maintain a number of urban roads at 30mph'.

That is a Labour council saying that. And to compound matters, even when it became clear that the policy wasn't working in communities across Wales, the Welsh Government commissioned a review into the policy, but that review itself didn't appear to put the people of Wales and their experiences at its heart. For example, the former Deputy Minister commissioned one of the architects of the scheme to undertake the review into the scheme. And then when I asked about the public's ability to give their opinions on how it was working, I was told that you would only be able to give an opinion on the street that you lived on. So, your voice would be ignored if you lived, for example, on a cul-de-sac leading on to a 20 mph road, even though it's just as much a part of the community that you want to keep safe as the street you live on. 

Time and again, the Welsh Labour Government didn't want to listen to the people of Wales when they were very clearly saying the issues that they had with this policy being implemented. And they didn't listen because the Welsh Labour Government was worried that it didn't like what the people of Wales had to say to them. So, there's little wonder, I think, that 0.5 million people felt that their only recourse, the only way to make their voices heard inside their Government, was to go online and to sign this petition. And in the interests of a transparent, open Government that works in the interests of the people of Wales, we should resolve never to be in this position again.

But, Llywydd, we have heard a change in tone from the new Cabinet Secretary for transport. We heard he wants to listen, and I welcome that. I genuinely and sincerely hope he means what he says and that his words are followed up with genuine actions, but it’s the public that will be the ultimate judge of that, and the public will judge his actions on whether they feel that roads that they know in their local area that aren’t working are changed. Because anything less than that means that for all the Cabinet Secretary’s warm words, he won’t have done anything to listen to the words of the people of Wales, who know all too well that the policy isn't working.

Now is the time to scrap the guidance and look at it again with a blank piece of paper and think, 'How can I come up with a policy that works for the people of Wales, that listens to people who want to have a say on their roads, in their community, and not just listen to the people that already agree with me? And how can I not only say that I’m listening to people, but show people with my actions that I’m really taking their views on board?’ And without that, Llywydd, I fear we will be back in the same place again, having the same discussion over and over again. Diolch.

May I begin by thanking the Petitions Committee for their general work? And certainly this petition has helped create that focus on this policy and its implementation and the early experience. I’d like to very much agree with what Lee Waters said about change always being difficult, and particularly, perhaps, change that affects car use, because I think we all know over quite a period of time how difficult it is when change is introduced that does affect that freedom that people feel is very dear to them in terms of how they use their cars.

But we have a lot of experience, not just from across the UK, but in Europe and beyond, which does show that when you roll out these 20 mph policies, not only are they effective in reducing deaths on the roads and serious injuries on the roads, but also they do often meet that initial opposition; they are very controversial initially, but quite quickly, actually, that does give way to a much higher level of support, once people have experienced the effect and the value of those policies. So, that is a general pattern that we see elsewhere, and I think we see the beginnings of that now here in Wales.

Certainly, as a Member of the Senedd, my own experience in my constituency is that there has been a change in people’s attitudes following the initial impact, and what people now think of the policy, having initially had that experience of it. They do value the way that communities are able to reclaim their streets for walking, for children playing, and for active travel, indeed, which is an important Senedd policy, but most of all, the quieter nature of those urban roads and the very obvious greater level of safety from the reduced speeds. And as Lee Waters also said, yes, we are seeing a reduction in speeds on those roads.

Llywydd, when I first became a Member of the Senedd, one of the earliest meetings that I remember on road safety was with a local parent on a council estate, where his son had been knocked down and killed on a through road through that council estate, nowhere near a school, nowhere near a hospital, nowhere near the more obvious areas that people often cite in terms of where they think 20 mph limits are needed. And that goes back to the point that we heard earlier that, yes, children don’t always live outside schools and those other obvious places where you need 20 mph; we need it on our residential streets and roads as well.

That’s been my experience throughout my time here in the Senedd that people increasingly want to see greater road safety for very obvious reasons. And one of them, another constituent that very much comes to mind in those terms is Dr Julian Smith, who’s been a great campaigner within Newport East on road safety. Sadly, his daughter was killed in a road traffic accident, and he then founded a charity to campaign for better road safety. He actually held an event, a conference, in Newport East, which was attended by Welsh Government officials and a host of organisations concerned with road safety, and he's been an absolute tower of strength in trying to salvage something positive from that awful incident that killed his daughter. Unsurprisingly, Julian has taken a great interest in the roll-out of 20 mph, and I know, because he copied it to me, that he actually wrote to our former First Minister Mark Drakeford on the policy, saying, 'I would like to thank you for your efforts in introducing this policy and enduring opposition to its introduction. I would also like to thank you on behalf of those parents whose children you have saved and will save'—

Would you give way?

'They will not have to endure the horrors and pain that my daughter's family and friends have had to endure.'

Thank you, and, of course—

I've finished my contribution, thank you, Mark.

Oh, I'm sorry.

That's okay. Bad timing there, Mark. You may get an opportunity again. 

I'm pleased to be taking part in this debate this afternoon on an issue that has evoked a reaction like nothing I have seen before in Welsh politics. I hope that eight months on from the roll-out, the Welsh Government give this petition the proper consideration it deserves. I thank the Petitions Committee for the work that they've done on this so far.

The Welsh Government has clung to the default 20 mph policy thus far, not because the people asked for it or wanted it, not because there was solid evidence that it would achieve its purported goals, but because it was the latest fashionable policy amongst the political class here and in Europe, and they didn't want to miss out on that trend. Never did it occur to them that the vast majority of people do not like this policy, to put it mildly, and that sentiment has not gone away and won't do. The Welsh Government should remember that Wales is their constituency, and they are not elected to represent solely stakeholders, pressure groups and the opinion pages of The Guardian. They are elected to represent the Welsh people who, in their wisdom, have rejected this failed policy through the greatest act of political participation in Senedd history.

The views of 0.5 million people in Wales cannot and should not be ignored, particularly when the evidence for speed limit reductions to 20 mph has such an unsound evidential basis. We already know the evidence from bodies without a vested interest. The 2022 Queen's University Belfast study cited in the petition shows that default 20 mph speed limits have seemingly little impact on crashes, casualties or driver speed. And I will reiterate that the Welsh Conservatives have supported, and always will support, 20 mph speed limits outside of schools and hospitals—

Will you give way?

In a second. I'll just finish this point. A default 20 mph policy is not a commonsense approach, and this is what the signatories to the petition would like the Welsh Government to understand. 

You quote again the Belfast study, which, as you say, is in the petition. We've said many times that this is a different thing. It's not comparing like with like. That study is about already existing 20 mph in a city centre, and the conclusion of that study is that it recommends the council take an area-wide approach as a default, which we actually had to do. So, if you are going to quote studies as evidence against a policy, you should do your best to understand the study first.

It's interesting you raise that, Lee, actually, because I left out a couple more bodies out of my remarks. I only quoted Queen's university. I noticed there was evidence at the time from the RAC and the AA against that, but they were ignored. Very reputable bodies, I must say—nationwide bodies with a good reputation who have been around since cars were invented. So, if you're saying that they don't know what they're talking about, then that's a very bold comment to make.

On the issue of air pollution, what data we do have since the new speed limit was rolled out also shows no evidence of a significant improvement in air quality. But on the real-world consequences of this policy, the harm it has caused to public transport in my constituency alone is alarming. Arriva Buses Wales have told me personally how damaging this has been to their passengers. It has restricted the mobility of the elderly and disabled who rely on local bus services. Bus operators across Wales have had to withdraw stops from their routes in order to maintain punctuality, such as the withdrawal of the Tweedmill bus stop in my constituency on the 51 route, where elderly shoppers are now ferried to the side of a busy A road far from the vicinity of the retail outlet.

The Welsh Government promised us that this was not a blanket policy and that appropriate exemptions would be made, but since it has been rolled out, we have learnt that this was an empty promise to placate the people. I've tried to make the best out of a bad situation in my constituency and work with Denbighshire County Council to get exemptions to the 20 mph limit approved, but they have been kicked into the long grass thus far. I submitted a letter to the council in November of last year with a list of roads suitable for exemption, such as the Meliden dip and Rhuddlan Road, amongst many more, where 20 mph is causing chaos, yet six months on, not a single exemption has been made to one of these highways. The continued advice to local authorities is clearly not good enough, with only 0.6 per cent of roads in Denbighshire being exempt from the 20 mph speed. I've raised this issue both in the Senedd and with Denbighshire County Council—[Interruption.] I'll just finish this point—since January, and the exemptions have not been made. 

Earlier, I said that councils in north Wales were just waiting for the further guidelines before making their exemptions. I know that Denbighshire have got a list of 25 roads to make back up—rather than do it twice. So, I just wanted to make that point there. And there have been discussions with Arriva and they're putting forward roads as well. Do you think that that's going to be useful, going forward?

I've heard a different story; I've heard that they're going to member area group meetings in Denbighshire County Council, which are not public meetings, they're private, and they're going to be discussed, voted on and decided in private meetings that are not publicly broadcast. That is the latest news I'm getting directly from councillors. And when you actually live in your constituency, then you get to learn these things quite quickly. On top of all this, the estimated hit to the Welsh economy—

That's below the belt.

I don't think it's below the belt, I think it's just somebody speaking true words. At a time when the UK's growth is struggling to get off the ground, despite the evidence that it does not work, despite the multitude of negative consequences and the lack of consent from the public—[Interruption.] I'm happy to take another intervention, if you so wish.

Just to correct that, I actually live in the region that I represent, North Wales. Do you agree that that is correct?

Yes, of course. I'm just saying that I'm a constituency Member and I live in my constituency. That's all I'm saying—[Interruption.] Yes, thank you.

I think I'd stick to the topic and the petition in question. Where Members live is a matter for them.

Yes, I think we're drifting away from the subject, and focusing on things that are—

I think you're coming to an end now, aren't you, Gareth Davies. [Laughter.]

Oh, celebrations—'hooray'. We support 20 mph outside schools and hospitals, but the default application of this speed has to be reversed. The petition before the Senedd today is an opportunity for the Welsh Government to take stock of the nearly 500,000 voices telling them that they don't want 20 mph. So, I urge all Members to accept the public's verdict on this and vote to scrap this failed policy.

The Cabinet Secretary for transport now—Ken Skates.

Diolch, Llywydd. I'd like to thank Jack Sargeant and the members of the Petitions Committee for bringing forward today's debate. It is, as many Members have said, the biggest petition that this Senedd has ever seen, and I'd like to thank Members across the Chamber for their contributions today.

We must recognise the range of voices that have spoken out in favour of and against the policy. And for whatever reasons, we cannot escape the fact that 20 mph has served to polarise communities. That's why, since taking up post, I've placed such an emphasis on listening. I've felt it vital to listen with an open mind to the views of people who have previously felt that they weren't being heard, whatever their starting point in this debate. That national listening programme is now in full swing and I'm very grateful to the original petitioner, Mark Baker, for agreeing to meet with me as part of my first round of discussions.

I've also met with local government leaders from across Wales, with elected representatives from across the political divide, with the emergency services, charities that promote walking and cycling, bodies representing hauliers and motorists, including the RAC, as well as—crucially important, I believe—bus operators. Yes, there are differences of opinion, but we have much more in common than divides us, and I'm determined to continue that conversation in the weeks and months ahead to address public concerns and hopefully to remove this issue from polarising culture wars.

I recently visited Buckley in Jack Sargeant's own constituency. It was such a powerful reminder of the value in engaging with local people who use the roads daily and those who live on the roads, listening to their feedback and giving them the opportunity to set out their concerns.

To support this national conversation, we recently published a webpage to help signpost people towards their local highway authority, to provide feedback or suggestions for roads. I believe we all have a role to play in this process, and that includes Members from across this Chamber, as well as the people and communities that we represent. I'd like to also pay tribute to the police and fire and rescue services for the education and enforcement campaign that's been in operation across Wales. 

Llywydd, I'd also like to take this opportunity to place on record my sincere thanks to our partners in local government. This has been a challenging period, and I recognise that local government and transport officers in particular have been at the front line through these turbulent times. To be clear, I take full responsibility for this reset. It is not a reflection on the hard work of local authorities and their teams who have worked tirelessly on the implementation of this policy over the past two years and more. Just last week, I wrote to council leaders reaffirming my commitment to provide them with the resources and the support they need as we work together to make 20 mph a success.

Through the drumbeat of regional meetings, and with the help of the County Surveyors' Society Wales, we want to co-create a framework that supports highway authorities to make the right decisions for local roads, particularly when those calls are finely balanced. My officials will then focus on prioritising guidance for other speed limits where people live. This will be published in April 2025, following stakeholder engagement, which will include communication and feedback from local authorities, and a 12-week public consultation. We have learnt lessons from 20 mph and will ensure that the citizens' voice is at the heart of co-creating policy with and for our communities. 

We have all heard the tragic accounts of pain, of loss and utter devastation from families who have lost loved ones, including some of us within this Chamber. Llywydd, the principal objective of our 20 mph policy is to save lives and reduce collisions on our roads. [Interruption.] Yes, of course.

It was referred to by your predecessor when in this role the situation in Spain, where the default was introduced in 2020, I believe. What consideration will you give to the actual increase in fatalities amongst vulnerable users—walkers, cyclists, motorcyclists—over the last two years in Spain since that default was introduced?

I think it's important to stress, Llywydd, that there is evidence from around the world, and the balance of evidence demonstrates that reducing the speed limit, primarily because it reduces the stopping distance of vehicles, actually does lead to a reduction in collisions. But we're going to follow the balance of evidence, I can assure the Member of that, and our own speed and collision data will be published soon from within Wales. It will be a snapshot of the first few months of the policy being implemented. But I am determined to make sure that policy is based on sound evidence, on the objective truth, not an interpretation, and that it is based on evidence from around the world that can be absolutely unequivocal. 

We have heard about those tragedies and, actually, the principal objective of our policy, as I say, was to reduce collisions and thereby save lives. I'd like to build from the consensus that 20 mph is right around schools, hospitals and in built-up residential areas, and through partnership working and by supporting highway authorities to make changes where it's right to do so, I believe we can make 20 mph a success for built-up areas in Wales. And finally, to everyone that has signed the petition, I can guarantee we are listening. Now, let's work together to get the right speeds on the right roads for the people, businesses and communities we serve, for our own families and for all others across Wales. Diolch.

Peredur Owen Griffiths now to reply to debate on behalf of the committee.

Diolch, Llywydd. I'm speaking this afternoon as a member of the Petitions Committee, because our Chair has been called away for an urgent personal matter. I'm sure he sends his apologies for that and has let the Llywydd know. I'd like to thank all Members for their contributions today. I'd like to thank also the Cabinet Secretary for his response, and thank the Business Committee for granting us additional time for this important debate.

Two weeks ago, the Petitions Committee introduced a debate on additional learning needs and the issues faced by parents. They wrote to us after that debate saying, 'Hearing people in a position of power speak of the struggles families like ours face makes you feel heard, and while the issues are not yet fixed and there is much to be done, being heard is something that is so desperately needed as part of the solution.'

We’ve heard many arguments here be revised today, on all sides, and I’m not going to go through all of those arguments again. But I hope today’s debate will reassure the thousands of people who signed this petition that they have been heard too. As Members of the Senedd, we hear that this policy change has frustrated a great many people, and we know that it has been misunderstood and miscommunicated in parts, and that the rhetoric has been used with damaging effect as well. I think we should all reflect on how we can conduct ourselves. We can disagree vehemently politically, but personal attacks have no place in this Senedd or in Wales, and with a general election just being called, I hope everyone will bear that in mind and agree.

We also heard that the Welsh Government had agreed to the Plaid Cymru motion to review the impact of the policy back in September, and the Cabinet Secretary has now moved forward with that, but it’s taking a little bit of time to do that. I hope today’s debate has given greater clarity to what the Government has done and is doing, working with local authorities and communities to review and to make changes where that is necessary and safe, and also to acknowledge and support those communities that clamour for lower speed limits and safer streets where they live.

Yesterday in this Chamber Jack Sargeant spoke in praise of a petition from 2012 that had finally achieved its aim—CCTV in slaughterhouses. It’s not always clear immediately what the impact of a petition has been and the influence it has had. It will take a few more months and maybe years for the dust to finally settle on this policy and for the kinks to be ironed out. But of one thing I am sure: in the future, when the history books are written, looking back at the sixth Senedd, this policy and the petition that emerged to challenge it will be more than just a footnote. Diolch yn fawr.

The proposal is to note the petition. Does any Member object? No, there is no objection to noting the petition, so the motion is agreed. 

The next item is the Welsh Conservatives debate on tourism, and I call Laura Anne Jones to move the motion. Laura Anne Jones. 

Diolch, Llywydd. I am proud to be opening this debate today where we, the Welsh Conservatives, are putting a laser focus on a struggling industry here in Wales, an industry that is not being helped by the current Welsh Labour Government.

Tourism forms a backbone to our Welsh economy, and that’s what point 1 of our motion recognises. Tourism occurs in all parts of Wales, and the geographical spread of economic activity and employment generated by tourism is one of its key benefits. Provisional figures for 2022 highlighted that 153,500 people work in the tourism-related industries, or 11 per cent of the total average employment in Wales in 2022.

Prior to the pandemic, the Welsh tourism sector was estimated to directly contribute £2.4 billion or around 5 per cent of Wales’s gross domestic product, but the story is very different now. The tourism sector still has not recovered to pre-pandemic levels, as point 2 of our motion recognises. From January to December 2023, residents across Great Britain took 8.58 million overnight trips to Wales. During these trips they also spent over £2 billion.

Major events are a vital part of our tourism. Not only do the events themselves attract tourists to Wales, but they also attract more major events to Wales. Sporting and other major events are a significant reason why people choose to visit Wales. Take Clash at the Castle, the WWE major event that also took place in Cardiff, contributing over £2 million to the Welsh economy. This event even attracted over 62,000 people to Cardiff, which was the largest European audience for WWE. Or take, for example, the 60,000 people that attended the Ed Sheeran concert at the Principality Stadium in May 2022. These are great events, and really boost our economy, but we should not rest on our laurels. More can be done. We need to be more proactive as a nation. We need a plan.

It is vitally important that there is a push for major events to be held right across Wales as currently most of them are held in south Wales. The way to do this, perhaps, could be achieved by the Wales football team playing matches at Wrexham’s Racecourse ground. There needs to be an improved tourism and major events strategy that draws visitors to Wales. Pre-pandemic Wales received 1 million visitors a year, where Scotland received 3.5 million, and that gap has not closed. This shows that there's significant work to do to make Wales more appealing to international tourists, as well as ensuring that major events are held right across Wales that will boost local economies in all our areas.

Along with the many economic benefits that tourism brings to Wales, they would, of course, also bring cultural benefits—visits to Welsh film and television filming locations, such as Llanddwyn island and Llanbadrig church in Anglesey, Freshwater West beach in Pembrokeshire, and Barry. This not only brings with them the economic benefits to local communities and Wales as a whole, but also demonstrates to filming companies of all sizes the wide range of filming locations that is on offer in our great country. This, in turn, will encourage more companies to film in Wales, and this enables Wales to fully capitalise on film tourism and tourist visit destinations featured in films that are not directly related to destination marketing organisations and tourism promotions. Studies into film tourism have noted that films not only influence tourists to visit the area, but they also provide long-term economic benefits to the filming locations around the local areas.

Sadly, it's not all good news and ideas for the sector, as point 3 of our motion recognises that the greatest challenge that the tourism industry is facing is the upcoming visitor levy, also known as the tourism tax, which overnight visitors to Wales could face from 2027. This policy will make it more expensive for people to have an overnight stay in Wales, and potentially could make people think twice about holidaying in our country and instead choose somewhere else where they will not have to pay that additional amount. Inevitably, this would then mean that tourism and hospitality businesses will be significantly impacted by this policy's implementation.

In February 2024 the tourism barometer found that one third of tourism businesses had fewer visitors in 2023 compared to 2022. Forty-two per cent of businesses reported having the same level of business and only 25 per cent reported they had more business. This is a continuation of the findings from summer 2023, which showed that visitor numbers were still declining. This demonstrates that the tourism sector has not been able to recover from the significant hit that it received of the pandemic. As a result of a decline in visitors, there was also a significant decrease in the international visitor spend in Wales in 2022. International visitors spent £391 million, which was down from £515 million in 2019. Not only is this a significant hit to the Welsh economy, but it impacts on individual tourism and hospitality businesses.

Wales's transport links are also not efficient enough. The Welsh Affairs Committee was told by the United States that poor transport links to places like Snowdonia and Pembrokeshire were deterring visitors from coming to Wales. These are serious issues that the Welsh Government are failing to listen to.

Over 30 per cent of businesses that were surveyed as part of a tourism barometer said that the reason to be concerned about businesses this year was the Welsh Government's policies. One of the first Welsh Government policies that had a significant negative impact on the tourism sector was the increase of occupancy threshold from 70 days to 182 days. For many self-catering businesses, the increase to 182 days was far too high for them to meet. The Professional Association of Self-caterers, PASC, stated that this target was almost impossible, leaving owners at risk of 300 per cent council tax premiums. 

We in the Welsh Conservatives have continuously called for the occupancy threshold to be increased to 105 days, which is also in line with the figures that the vast majority of businesses supported. We have a plan for Wales's tourism sectors, as we recognise that hundreds of thousands of jobs rely on the tourism sector, yet this Welsh Labour Government are intent on attacking the sector instead of helping it to bounce back. Instead, the Welsh Conservatives want to support the industry to encourage visitors to Wales, using major events and filming to showcase what Wales really has to offer to the world. 

The Welsh Conservatives' alternative tourism strategy would free Welsh tourism by making Visit Wales independent of the Welsh Government. The current Visit Wales system is not working for Wales and is struggling to attract people to Wales. We would make Visit Wales independent of the Welsh Government, which will bring it in line with the other visitor organisations and will enable a more collaborative approach between Visit Wales, VisitBritain and VisitScotland, which will then benefit Wales and will encourage greater promotion of Wales to international tourism. 

We will create regional visitor passes to local attractions to boost local economies. Before COVID-19, there was an all-access visitor pass that let people visit different tourist destinations across Wales, such as Dan-yr-ogof caves, a family favourite. This was stopped during the pandemic and has not been reintroduced. As part of our alternative tourism strategy, these visitor passes would be re-established, along with the creation of a Valleys visitor pass that will enable more people to experience the culture of the Valleys and other parts of Wales. This will go towards helping the tourism businesses to recover after the pandemic and the cost-of-living crisis.

Whilst we on these benches clearly have a plan and ideas to support the tourism sector, the Government sat opposite us have nothing to offer beside empty words and ill-thought-out policies. I urge everyone in this Chamber today to support our motion and give their backing to our industry.

I have selected the four amendments to the motion. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendments 2, 3 and 4 will be deselected. I call on the Cabinet Secretary for  Economy, Energy and Welsh Language to move formally amendment 1, tabled in the name of Jane Hutt

Formally.

I call on Luke Fletcher to move amendments 2, 3 and 4, tabled in the name of Heledd Fychan.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd, and I move the amendments, tabled in the name of Heledd Fychan. And, you know, there's no disagreement from us as to the importance of the tourism sector, and there are elements of this motion that I think we could support or think warrant further explanation or exploration, like making Visit Wales independent—we're really interested in understanding how that might work; the hospitality and tourism academy—again, really interested in how that might work. We know there are shortages within the workforce.

But where I think it does miss the mark is where we have suggested amendments, because we all want to see the tourism sector thriving, but there are clearly differences in how we get there. Now, the important word for me in a debate about tourism has to be 'sustainability'. No negotiation, it needs to be a byword alongside 'thriving', because there lies the economic benefit. You know, the reality is that the current way in which we do tourism isn't sustainable. Communities that are ghost towns in off-seasons, where nobody actually lives and have become nothing more than a summer destination, local services stretched at a time when local government funding is being cut—we ultimately have to find a way of dealing with this.

Now, broadly, I'm supportive of the tourism tax, but there are things I'd be looking for, as it is brought to the Senedd. Firstly, the charge. There's a balance, I think, that has to be struck here, because if the charge is too high, then I would actually tend to be quite sympathetic with what's been said already—not that that would be a foregone conclusion, mind. Before now, the way in which the levy has been used in Venice has been highlighted as a negative form of the tourism levy. I don't think it's as simple to highlight Venice in that way. Now, I don't know who's been to Venice here in this Chamber; I haven't been, but I'm hoping to go. The one thing I've been told by people is that it's unbelievably busy; it sounds like my version of a nightmare. But the levy there is between €1 and €5 for an overnight stay, depending on certain factors. And, of course, you have the fee for daytrippers being trialled, which is €5. Now, that's not deterring me; it hasn't deterred all those people going to Venice, has it? What it's doing, though, is providing additional revenue to the local area to maintain attractions—[Interruption.]—maintain streets and maintain services. Gareth.

Thank you, Luke. I don't think it's necessarily a fair comparison to compare Venice and Wales. Obviously, with the different climate—

Why not?

Well, I'll explain why: because simply the—[Interruption.]—climate and the weather—[Interruption.]—because a lot of—

Let the Member make his intervention.

Because a lot of the comparisons made are actually exotic, hot countries that do have an appeal to people from these climates to travel there and spend money. But what we've got the challenge with is the weather, because it's quite unpredictable and different across different regions of Wales. So, we've got that to compete with, in addition to those problems.

I think that's quite an unfortunate intervention there, talking Wales down; he doesn't think that Wales can compete on an international level. There's a number of reasons why people come to Wales, of course, isn't there? I for one go to north Wales on a regular basis, west Wales to go hiking, no matter the weather—[Interruption.]—of course. There are other areas in Europe—again, we look at Barcelona. In one of the friends of Catalonia meetings that we've had here in the Senedd, Cefin Campbell asked about their tourist levy and what people were saying when it was first proposed. Well, certain parties were saying the same stuff as the Conservatives are saying now, you know, 'People won't come; it will destroy the tourism sector.' Well, that was back in 2012. Where is Barcelona today? It's ranked eighth in the world for best city-visitor experiences. It had 9.2 million visitors in 2023, up from the year previous, and, again, I'd ask the question: is anyone being deterred by a tourist levy in Barcelona? Darren.

Would you take an intervention?

Yes, of course.

I'm grateful for you doing so. I think the big issue and the big challenge we've got is that we know that the most lucrative type of tourism is the tourists who stay overnight and they spend more in our economy. What you're seeking to do is actually tax those particular tourists who want to come and stay overnight, who will spend more; it will give them less to spend in our economy.

The second point I would wish to make is that large parts of Wales are competing with other parts of the UK that do not have a tourism levy or a tourism tax, so many people who holiday in north Wales have a choice of whether to come to Snowdonia, whether to come to parts of north Wales or go up the coast and go over to the Lake District. If there's a price-sensitive issue—and there is for many families; we know that, through the cost-of-living challenges—then people will simply go elsewhere. That will be bad for the economy, be bad for jobs and bad for families in Wales. Don't you accept that?

Well, this is why, for example, I've talked about the charge needing to be at the right level for starters, right? You say that there is no tourism levy in the rest of the UK. I'd say that that is the case until the point where places like Cornwall, for example, who are talking about that right now—. I think I'm right in saying Manchester is considering it. Again—[Interruption.] Exactly. So, the example you used I don't think is fair, because we are going to see a tourism levy rolled out across the rest of the UK, by the sound of things, in places like Cornwall and Manchester. 

Now, on the point around the taxing of things, the second point that I think is quite important here is where, actually, the money raised goes. Now, I have said consistently that I believe that the money raised should be ring-fenced for those services that improve the lives of tourists, yes, but also improve the lives of local people—so, better public transport. You know, you mentioned that the transport links to get to yr Wyddfa are very poor; well, here's one way of funding better transport links and better maintenance of the streets and so on.

I think it's important to recognise that a tourist levy is actually something that, if approved, would be years away from being implemented, so I think, actually, there are more pressing matters for us to discuss if we are serious about helping out the tourism sector as a whole. So, the prices of goods to start. Yes, inflation is down, but that doesn't mean that prices are also necessarily going down. VAT is something the sector has highlighted several times as an issue, and business rates. Now, I would say, actually, if the Welsh Government were wanting to make things a bit easier for the tourism sector, restoring business rates relief to its previous level, or, better yet, actually working to vary the multiplier and use this as a way then to take pressure off the hospitality sector, as an example, would be the way to go.

So, Dirprwy Lywydd, there are some things we can agree on with the original motion, but I think we have to seriously consider how we make tourism more sustainable in the long term. So far, I haven't seen any alternative suggestions that I would support to what is on the table currently, so I hope the Plaid Cymru amendments can be supported. Diolch yn fawr.