Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru

Good afternoon. Before we move to our first item on our agenda this afternoon, may I inform Members that, 25 years ago to yesterday, the first meeting of the Assembly was held in the Tŷ Hywel Chamber? And, overnight, we heard the news that one of the Members elected to that Assembly had left us. Owen John Thomas was a Plaid Cymru Member for South Wales Central. He became a strong voice and Cardiff accent in the discussions of that first Assembly. He made a lifelong contribution to the growth of Welsh-medium education in the capital city, and he was one of the founders of the famous Clwb Ifor Bach in Cardiff. Our sincerest condolences as a Senedd are passed to Owen John Thomas's family and all of his friends. 

The first item on our agenda is questions to the First Minister, and the first question is from Sam Rowlands. 

Thank you. Healthcare overall in north Wales is not where I, nor indeed the staff delivering those services, would want it to be. As part of the special measures escalation, the Welsh Government is working closely with Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board to improve access to the safe and timely health and care that the people of north Wales deserve.

Well, thank you for your response, First Minister. And, Llywydd, the First Minister will be aware that, just last week, a black alert was issued in the north Wales health board because hospitals could not cope with the bank holiday levels of demand, and, sadly, this is far too often an occurrence for the residents that I represent in north Wales. And you'll also be aware that, of course, just before the last Senedd election, you felt it right to pull that health board out of special measures, and, then, inevitably, very quickly after the Senedd elections, the health board went straight back into special measures.

Now, things are as bad as they ever have been for the residents that I represent in north Wales, and I shared in this Chamber last week the example of one of my residents who is, sadly, terminally ill with cancer, who had to wait more than 24 hours in an A&E department. So, First Minister, because of the regularity of these occurrences, and because of the severity of the issues that my residents are suffering, would you not think that now is the time for an independent review of the health board, so that the people that I represent can get the healthcare that they deserve?

Thank you for the question. Before I deal with the substance of the points, there is a broader point that I want to make, that I hope will have support across the Chamber, because it's just over a week or so ago that there was a case of measles identified following someone who attended Wrexham Maelor. That actual 24-year-old was not vaccinated; they were visiting and actually attended from England to come to the hospital. There's a broader point here—and I think I made this in response to Peter Fox previously—about measles vaccination. It is a serious issue for people across all sides in this Chamber and beyond to encourage adults who are unvaccinated, or under-vaccinated, as well as children, to get vaccinated, because there is a real issue with the scale of measles outbreaks across the country, and it shows that, whilst we have a better position on vaccination than England, we're not immune to the challenges that do exist.

On your questions about, in particular, unscheduled and emergency care, this is an area where we know there's further improvement that is required. I can't comment on individual waits, but I recognise, as indeed does the Cabinet Secretary, that there are too many people who have an experience of waiting too long in an emergency department, or, indeed, an experience that we would not wish for our own loved ones as well. That's why there's a range of improvement action that is taking place. There's some extra resource available. So, there's £2 million for the health board in the financial year that we're just entering, and, indeed, in January, the Cabinet Secretary announced money for the whole of Wales, and Betsi Cadwaladr got the largest share of that. There's quite a lot of work that is being done on trying to make sure that people get to the most appropriate point for their care—so, for example, the same-day emergency service that has been created since Eluned Morgan became the Cabinet Secretary and the additional roll-out of urgent primary care that has taken place across north Wales. Those are thousands of people who are getting seen in a more prompt manner because that is the right thing to do for them. 

What we actually have is both the twin challenges of needing to transform our system whilst at the same time seeing demand increase. I think, in February this year, compared to a year before, there's been a 24 per cent increase in demand coming in through our emergency departments, and that's a huge additional wave of demand that we need to be able to see and cope with. What makes that much harder is that we're not able to get people out of hospital when they're medically fit for discharge. And the Member will know, as a former leader of a local authority, that this is joint work between health and local government, to make sure that when the hospital is no longer the right place for their care, those people can leave. In north Wales, there are regularly more than 300 people who are medically fit for discharge but can't leave. To give context to that, that's about two thirds of the entire bed space in Ysbyty Glan Clwyd. Now, it's in the interest of all of us to work together because, for that person who is in the wrong place, it's actually not a great experience for them, they're actually then subject to additional risks of decommissioning, and the Member will know this from his own time when he had a real job before politics, and actually thinking about the need to make sure that people are properly able to get around and about. So, this is a shared challenge for the two biggest sectors of the public sector, and, crucially, for those individuals as well. Those are the issues we face, and that is what we're going to carry on focusing on with our attention, together with partners and stakeholders.

One of the most prominent issues we have in the healthcare provision in north Wales is the long waiting lists. Take Ehlers-Danlos syndromes patients, for example. Over the border in England, patients there are referred straightaway to specialists, but Ehlers-Danlos patients in north Wales have to make an application for individual patient funding, which is, more often than not, rejected, which means, in turn, that they have to go without the vital care that they need for this serious condition. Do you, First Minister, belive that it's right that Ehlers-Danlos patients have to suffer in this way in north Wales, and will you commit to ensuring that patients in north Wales—and the whole of Wales, indeed—are referred directly, without having to wait and make applications for individual funding?

I'm not aware of the individual issue the Member raises. If he writes to me and the Cabinet Secretary for health, we'll happily look into that to see if there is a system-wide change that we could make. Actually, when it comes to access to new medication, we actually do better in Wales than in other parts of the UK. The new treatment fund, which I was proud that we introduced at the start of the last Senedd term, has made a real difference in getting new treatments available promptly and consistently across Wales. If that isn't the case in the area that the Member refers to, then I'd be interested in how we can look at that to understand if there is improvement action that we can take not just for north Wales, but across the whole country.

There is a lot of positivity happening as well in the NHS—a lot of people are being seen, and I welcome investment in north Wales, with the new orthopaedic unit being built, well-being hubs, investment in community provision, and extended hours to minor injury units, which is making a difference. I also welcome the new medical school for north Wales, and the new medical training centre for nurses, paramedics and other allied health professionals in Wrexham. And there are training pathways for social healthcare learners at Coleg Llandrillo, which is really positive. Recruitment and retention is really important. I don't want to keep talking the NHS down. However, I am concerned about the retention of staff. I've heard that a dermatologist has recently left to work in the private sector, which we don't want to happen. Betsi employs 19,000 people, and it's really important to the local economy as well, as an employer. So, to improve retention, we need to look at working conditions—offering flexibility, through reduced hours, perhaps, and job shares, would be a good way forward, if possible. First Minister, do you agree that, by investing in people, we can grow both our healthcare workforce and our local economy? Thank you.

Thank you for the question. I think it's important to reflect, as the Member does, that, whilst there are challenges on healthcare delivery in north Wales, which we acknowledge—that's why there's the special measures framework, and it's why the Cabinet Secretary spends a lot of her time poring over the detail of the improvements that are still required—for most people, they actually have a good experience of healthcare, and that is because of the fantastic work that our staff do, the dedication and the skill they have, and the continued transformation and improvement we're seeking to make.

I'm glad the Member made the point about the importance of the health board as an employer in the economy. Nearly 20,000 people being employed has a significant impact in local economies, right across the area. And I do think that's, therefore, about how you retain staff. It is about what we're doing to invest in the future—our current staff want to see investment in the future, for them to stay. I'm very proud of the steps that this Government has taken to help create a new medical school. We've worked with other partners in doing that in the past, in conversation with Plaid Cymru and others, but we are delivering a budget to make sure that that happens. And in the autumn of this year, the first intake to Bangor medical school will take place, the first direct students, and, by 2029, it will have reached its full capacity—doctors trained in Wales, for Wales. And that is important for our current medical and allied workforce as well, to see that investment taking place.

That goes alongside the point the Member finished on, about having a flexible approach to conditions. As our workforce shifts and trains, as our expectations have done—. It used to be the case that doctors expected to work punishingly long hours during their training. They accepted that as part of what happened, and yet, actually, none of us, I think, would now say that it's acceptable for doctors to work those extraordinary hours. And doctors are humans who want to have other relationships too. So, a flexible approach, where possible, to meet the needs of the patient and the person is what we do want our NHS to progressively undertake and deliver. It's a point well made. I hope the Member will see good examples of that in the health service across north Wales and beyond.

Thank you for the question. Across the Welsh Government, officials are working closely with both Swim Wales and Water Safety Wales to raise the profile of swimming within the Curriculum for Wales and to support primary school learners with swimming skills and water safety education.

First Minister, you may have seen the data from Swim Wales, which shows that only one in six or 16 per cent of children can swim. This is a really serious issue for my constituents, particularly up in Pentwyn, where we have a handy lake that children can drown in, but no swimming pool has been available to them since COVID. We still haven't seen the local authority commissioning the refurbishment of the pool, and the earliest it's going to reopen might be the summer of 2025. In the meantime, schools are having to shell out very large sums of money—up to £4,000—to ensure that children get their curriculum entitlement to learn how to swim. So, I wondered what you think the Government can do to accelerate the need to ensure that every child can swim, particularly in the most disadvantaged areas, where people are not being taken on holiday, because families, simply, don't have the money to go on holiday, and, in the summer, they are hugely at risk of water being available to drown in.

There's a serious point the Member raises. For many people, swimming is a leisure activity or is an activity for exercise. It's also a skill for life. So, I'm delighted that my own son has taken up the lessons that have been provided through his school. It's a real positive to see that skill for life that children learn early. And I particularly think about my own example. I learnt to swim as an adult. I was in my 30s when I learnt to swim, and I was concerned about the fact that, if I was in water that I could not stand up in, I could not move two or three metres to get myself to safety. So, I learnt to swim in the old Splott pool in Cardiff, which has now been refurbished. There's a new pool with a library and a hub of additional advice services around it. And my understanding is that's what Cardiff Council are looking to do with Pentwyn pool, where they're engaging with the public now on the design for not just a new pool, but the services to go around it. That's part of the answer, together with the work we are doing with schools across the country, including in Cardiff, to make sure that the statutory guidance for the new curriculum about making sure that children can be safe around water is taken up, together with the funding we do provide to local authorities to make sure that free swimming lessons are available. I think about six in 10 Cardiff primary schools do provide free swimming lessons, and I'd be interested in a conversation with the local authority about where those schools are and how that is rolled out to provide those opportunities progressively to a wider group of primary school-aged children. This a key lesson for life, and I would like to see other children take up that opportunity and not have to learn as an adult, as I did.

First Minister, as Jenny Rathbone highlighted, the low proficiency amongst children swimming in Wales is, I think, dangerously low. And we do see and hear on the media of young people who lose their lives unnecessarily because they can't swim, or they don't know any safety techniques when they do fall into water and then they get into trouble, and unfortunately they drown. So, First Minister, what plans does the Welsh Government have to make swimming mandatory within the curriculum to make sure that our young people are educated about how to swim, and to make sure that no young person dies unnecessarily in water because they have not got any techniques to make them able to save their own life?

I think there are two slightly different things here. The first is, as I said in response to the Member for Cardiff Central, that, actually, we do have clear guidance in the national curriculum about making this available. The challenge is making sure that's taken up progressively—so, we do provide money to support that—and then having the facility that's available to nearby communities, because, practically, if you need to travel a significant amount of time—. I think time more than distance is the issue, because you can move a short distance as the crow flies in our cities but it can actually take a long time to travel. So, the redevelopment of Pentwyn is really important for that section of Jenny Rathbone's constituency. It's one of the least advantaged communities in the capital city. So, the practical access is part of that.

I think the second point is a point that the Member raises quite correctly, and that's not just about access to swimming lessons; it's about water safety and, in particular, understanding when water isn't safe to enter, even if you are a competent swimmer—that's both what's underneath the water as well as the fact that going into cold water can be dangerous for people of all ages. So, that's the point about not just working with Swim Wales, but also Water Safety Wales, to try to educate our children and young people to understand what being safe around water really does mean, as well as the joy of learning the life skill of being able to swim.

Prif Weinidog, you've recognised this afternoon the importance of swimming and swimming lessons for all ages, but you will be aware that a number of pools in communities across Wales have closed, either due to revenue costs or because of their physical condition. This really is a question of access, I think. Pontardawe swimming pool in Neath Port Talbot is due to close in August because its life has expired after 50 years and its condition has deteriorated to the extent where it would be dangerous to continue operating. I'm glad that Neath Port Talbot council will be commissioning a feasibility study into building a replacement pool—refurbishment isn't an option. Will the First Minister state what existing funding support is available for the provision of swimming pools by local authorities and leisure trusts in Wales? What new capital funding can be made available to support the building of new and environmentally sustainable pools, which are essential for the health and well-being and safety, as you pointed out, of communities like those of Pontardawe and the Swansea and Aman valleys?

We do provide capital support through Sport Wales to help with some of this. Our challenge, though, is the scale of the capital we have available to us and the scale of the challenge we face. Because the Member is right: a number of the assets that communities have been used to using are coming to the end of their lives, and there is therefore a need to think about the capital investment that's required and the point the Member makes around the sustainability of those buildings. The buildings we'd build today would be quite different to the buildings of 50 years ago and how they're made generally sustainable. There is, of course, lots of innovation taking place around local authorities—Rhondda Cynon Taf, for example, is having open-water pools available. It's not something that I'd choose to do, but there are others who want to do it. It's about the access to the opportunity. Our work with local authorities would have to be bound by the realities of their budgets. Every Member in this room knows that we don't have the resource in terms of revenue or capital that we'd like to have, so this will require sustained investment over a longer period of time, it will require a different settlement on what we're able to generate in capital terms to support local government and communities with the aspirations that I know that they do have.

Questions now from the party leaders. Leader of the Conservatives, Andrew R.T. Davies.

Thank you, Presiding Officer. Could I first of all identify with your opening remarks about Owen John Thomas and his commitment to this Welsh Parliament, and obviously to public service throughout his whole life? I extend the Conservatives' condolences to his family at this very difficult time for them as well.

First Minister, the residents around the landfill site at Withyhedge are really having a nightmare of a situation inflicted on them. The smells, the odours, are unbearable for residents in this part of west Wales. They've now had two public health warnings, one in March and one as recently as Friday, about the stench and the impact that could have on public health in the area. It's not unreasonable to ask the question, as many residents have, and as my colleague for the constituency Paul Davies has: why are they having to put up with this awful situation that seems to be going on for ever and a day? Can you answer that simple question, so that they can have confidence that there will be action taken to address the appalling environment that they're having to bring their children up in and live and breathe every day?

I think it's important that improvement action is taken to resolve the issue. I've had the same conversations with regional Members in my own group about making sure that action is taken, indeed, the issues that Paul Davies will have raised as well.

So, the advice from Public Health Wales that was issued in March is the same as has been recently issued about how to take measures whilst the issue is still unresolved. My understanding is that NRW are taking action to both monitor and to require improvement, and the key point here is that the operator meets those requirements. Equally, I understand they've installed monitoring equipment that NRW then take the readings from to see if they're actually taking the steps they're required to do. So, it's what I'd expect of any operator. The regulatory requirements are there, in place, for exactly this reason, and that's why NRW need to keep on making sure that action is taken and that they then communicate with the public about whether that action has been met. 

I'm sure you'll want to put it on the record, First Minister, that you do have a conflict of interest, because the owner of this landfill site is David Neal of Dauson Environmental Group. And that is the issue here. It is all well and good putting monitoring services in there, but two deadlines, as I said in my opening remarks, have been missed; today is another deadline, as I understand it, that has been set to see improvement in that particular area.

Regrettably, I have spoken to people over the last 10 days, and one individual said that, at 6.30 in the morning, the smell was so strong, they were on all fours throwing their guts up. Those were their words. And last Friday, I was talking to another resident of the area who said that he's actually had people not come in to work, to work on his farm, because the smell is so atrocious there. Now, it's all well and good you saying that monitoring measures have been put in place, but this has been going on now for many months, and it looks as if it could continue for many months more. That isn't acceptable. Would you want that on your doorstep in Penarth, because if it's not good enough for you, why is it good enough for the people in west Wales to have to put up with?

I think there are a number of different points that are being made there. I've been clear about where I can and can't act and where there's a conflict of interest. I haven't taken any action in this instance. I was responding to the Member's question about what's happening by making it very clear that NRW, as the regulator, need to take the required action. I'm not aware that a single member of the Government has attempted to influence the action of NRW; it is for them to undertake the required action to ensure that improvement is delivered, and that's the very clear position of the whole Government.

I wouldn't expect any community to simply tolerate what is happening. That's why action needs to be taken. That's why it needs to be led by the regulator, to be clear about when requirement is undertaken and what will happen, whether that required action is undertaken to time or not. That's the important point here. There's no moving away from required improvement, and I expect the regulator to act as it should do in this and any other instance, regardless of the operator. 

No declaration, First Minister. Any other Member would have to make that declaration. On the third question, in your answer, I hope you will make that declaration, because that's going to the core of what many people in the locality perceive as influence and making sure that things aren't remediated as quickly as possible. That tip needs to shut. It has been run very badly, and residents are being affected in their everyday lives. That is just not good enough. I wouldn't tolerate it on my doorstep, and I certainly wouldn't tolerate it in my electoral area, and I'd be putting in all the possible support I could for residents to try to make sure that they had this situation addressed.

Will you send a clear message that the Welsh Government will deal with this, will work with the regulator and the local authority to make sure that this is brought to a conclusion in a timely manner, and that residents will not feel as if they're in some environmental vortex that is dragging them down and making their lives a misery? Give that commitment and send that message if you would today, so that the residents can have hope. 

I think it's important to address the two points. The first is that, if I'm conflicted out, then I can't answer the question. And, actually, my record, which has been updated and is available, from Dauson, that's clear and it's on the public record. There's no lack of clarity or honesty about that. 

The second point, after being clear about the declaration, is that I don't think that it does prevent me from setting out that the Government's position is that the issue needs to be resolved properly in accordance with the requirements of the regulator, and of course as soon as possible. As I said in answer to your second question, it would not be acceptable in any community in the country for the issue not to be resolved, whether it's in my constituency or a different part of the country. That's why I say again that the regulator, NRW, needs to act to make sure that improvement is undertaken and that they have the assurance that that has been completed. That's my very clear expectation.

If the regulator wants to talk to the Government, they can of course speak to the Cabinet Secretary for Climate Change and Rural Affairs, but they would not need to come to me, and if they did, I would have to tell them that I cannot undertake any action in this matter. But I can set out the overall position on what the Government expects in any instance where action is required by NRW or any other regulator.

Leader of Plaid Cymru, Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Thank you, and I echo the words of the Presiding Officer in paying tribute to Owen John Thomas, a real friend and campaigner for his community and for Welshness and the Welsh language in the capital city. And as we extend our sympathies to his loved ones and family today, we remember his contribution to Plaid Cymru and to the future of Wales.

There is a saying in Welsh, 'gorau arf, arf dysg'—an education is the best weapon—and it’s so true that raising educational standards has to be one of the main tools used in Wales as we try to bring more prosperity to our nation. And we see in recent days how much the higher education sector has lost the ability to be in the vanguard in that regard: Aberystwyth is facing losing up to 200 jobs in trying to make savings of £15 million; the vice chancellor in Cardiff is talking about a £35 million deficit in the budget for this year. It’s a critical situation, and we’re the only nation in the UK that is moving backwards in terms of student participation in higher education. There are hundreds of jobs under threat, our economy is under threat. Can the First Minister tell us what discussions the Welsh Government is having in terms of reprioritising resources in order to offer a package to get our universities through this particular storm?

I want to start by just noting Owen John Thomas’s contribution—O.J., as I knew him when I was a researcher in the first year of the National Assembly, as it then was. I always found him kind and courteous in my dealings with him, and I wish him and his family well.

On your point around higher education, we have of course taken a range of steps in the last budget around funding, and there’s a separate point about that that I think is beyond funding, because I don’t think that participation is simply about the level of fees. However, we have taken the difficult decision to actually permit higher education to undertake fee increases to try to generate further income for the sector. There is a need to consider the amount of resource that can go into higher education, together with every other part of our public realm.

HE institutions are independent institutions, but they do receive funding from the public purse because of the wider impact of what they provide. They’re also, of course, coping with the reality that they’ve lost a significant chunk of income in the way that former EU funds were then repurposed and centralised in the UK Government, and higher education was deliberately designed out of access to those funds. That has meant, as we’ve discussed before, that high-quality research jobs have been lost to Welsh institutions, and that is part of the financial challenge that they now face.

You’ll be hearing later on this afternoon from the education Secretary about priorities for education, and I know that post-16 participation is something that we are keen to see further progress made on, and that is in all forms of post-16 participation, higher and further education, as well as people going into the world of work. To get that right, we’ve actually got to look further into the system and earlier on. It is both the change that takes place at the top of primary school and also what people’s aspirations are for the future, and whether we're getting more of our young people to undertake post-16 education, with all of the opportunities it can provide for them and indeed the country.

Our economic mission and the opportunities we have from renewable energy and the new economy that we can create will rely on the skills that people will need, which they will need to acquire from both further and higher education. So, we're clear that we do want to see participation rates turned around and increase. You'll hear more, not just today, but in the next two years and beyond about how we will seek to do that.

I agree with much of that description of the situation, though I would expect more of an urgent response to the crisis that we are facing. One element that the First Minister referred to, falling numbers of international students, certainly has had a significant impact on university finances, and a further threat comes from the Tories' attitude towards immigration. But despite myths peddled by the Tory right, the Migration Advisory Committee concluded today that there is no evidence of widespread abuse of the UK's graduate visa route. They think the graduate visa entitlement allowing international students to work for two or three years after graduating should remain in place. Obviously, that was welcomed by the sector today, as abolishing the graduate visa would spell financial disaster for Welsh universities. But the sector remains concerned that the Tories will cherry-pick elements of the report to satisfy the appetite of its right wing. Can the First Minister assure the Senedd that he will demand a guarantee from his party leader that any move by the Tories to end the graduate visa scheme would be reversed by Labour if it forms a Government, or better still, can he give a guarantee today?

I just want to go back to the starting point on action to be taken. The education Secretary has a statement to this Chamber later today, and I expect there'll be not just comments but questions around post-16 participation, so I'm not here to spike the statement that is about to be delivered this afternoon. I'm sure the education Secretary wouldn't thank me if I attempted to do so.

On your broader point, though, about graduate visas, I think it is good news that there is evidence today, clear evidence, that there is no real picture of graduate visas being abused. I would like to see the UK Government taking account of that evidence and moving back from the path that it has set out upon. This is both an issue about the financial picture for higher education across the UK, not just in here Wales, but the model that actually is undercutting how institutions are able to run, to balance their books. But, more than that, I go back to my own experience as an Aberystwyth alumni—it's where, of course, I met the Llywydd when I was still a member of the Aberystwyth higher education community. It's not just the money; I went to university with 80 different nationalities. It is part of the learning experience, not just what takes place in a lecture hall or a seminar room. Meeting and greeting and being part of a community within an international sphere is part of that learning experience we should not surrender. So, yes, I of course want to see that carry on. I expect you'll see positive news on this and a number of other fronts in the future UK Labour manifesto. I'm very clear that the evidence there is no abuse should lead to a change in Government policy. And finally, with regard to what Esther McVey says, this is an example of where real common sense would lead to a welcome change in Government policy.

So, it's crossing fingers and hoping for the best. The bottom line is we can't allow the future of higher education in Wales to be at the mercy of Westminster, be that a Tory Government or, dare I say it, a Labour Government with Natalie Elphicke so warmly welcomed into its ranks. Professor Paul Boyle, chair of Universities Wales, warned the Welsh Affairs Committee last month that

'the impact of any changes to the Graduate Route will be magnified in Wales, as international student growth in Wales has not matched that of the UK'.

Our late colleague Steffan Lewis was always a champion of promoting Wales to the world, and he said back in 2017 that it's a matter of great regret that Westminister policies have damaged our reputation here as a destination for international students. He was reflecting then on the recommendations by an all-party group at Westminster that there'd be real benefits to devolving elements of immigration policy. I agree with Steffan that devolving student visas could benefit Welsh universities and our economy. Goodness knows we need a boost now. So, does the First Minister agree with Steffan and myself, or would he rather let the Tories in Westminster decide?

I think whenever you talk about devolution, you need to be clear about the financial consequences. We've had painful experience of Tory Governments devolving responsibilities and reducing budgets. The council tax benefit scheme was a perfect example: devolution with a 10 per cent budget cut and the pressure that put on the rest of our services and our ability to support the economy. So, I'm always interested in a conversation about where powers best lie and to make sure we have the resource to be able to exercise those powers effectively.

I think the broader point here is that there could and should be a positive offer from the UK for international higher education, but also for home-grown students as well: the learning environment that they go into, how it's funded and the opportunities in the wider world of work that it provides. That's what I'm interested in, and I'm very proud of the work that I have done and other Ministers have done in promoting Wales in the wider world. Our higher and further education is a big part of that. When I was in India recently, I was on the cusp of a trade mission, and we actually had one of our larger further education colleges there. It's still a high-value offer, and, in fact, Indian students are the highest by proportion group of students that come into higher and further education in Wales. So, it is still a real success story.

I believe we can have a Government in the UK that doesn't seek to trash our reputation, that keeps its word and wants to have a different set of relationships with the wider world that will benefit Wales and Britain. We already do that, and I see that work myself. I believe that in the future we can persuade the people of Wales to vote for that as well. I believe two Labour Governments working together for Wales and Britain will improve life here and give us the tools to do the job and have real and reliable partners in the UK Government. I'll be proud to go out and make that case to the people of Wales in the coming months whenever that election comes.

I can't comment on any specific application. However, our general policy does not support the construction of new fossil fuel power plants as they are a source of additional greenhouse gas emissions.

There is concern locally that an application will be submitted for a gas-fired electricity generating plant in a former quarry in Caernarfon. As you say, you can't discuss individual plans, but I would like to know what exactly the Government's policy stance is on developments of this kind. The former First Minister's stance was unequivocally against this issue when I raised the matter with him. In response to a question from me on the floor of the Senedd, he quoted the former Minister for Climate Change, who said this:

'Where the Welsh Government is called to decide on future proposals to build...power generation in Wales, it is the intention of Welsh Ministers to maintain a strong presumption against new fossil fuelled power plant.... This presumption will also have the effect of discouraging local decision makers from consenting new small-scale fossil fuel plant.'

I'd like to hear your stance clearly on the record, to hear that you are continuing to be of that view, just as unequivocally as the previous leadership.

The starting position is a presumption against the development of new fossil fuelled power plants. The challenge will be that, of course, Ministers have to judge everything on its merits. I don't want to get drawn into the individual application. It's worth, though, reflecting that there are 36 weeks for making a decision on developments of national significance, which is why I won't get drawn into the individual applications beyond restating Government policy on this matter. So, it's a live acceptance of a valid application and we will need to understand the total proposals for a Minister to then determine. Julie James is the planning Minister, but we need to understand that Welsh Ministers should not go on the record and comment in any way that could be seen as making individual comments around the application. But I'm happy to restate the policy position of the Government.

Plans to create gas-fired plants in Arfon have referred to the need to shift away from a dependency on fossil fuels to generate energy. The International Energy Agency defines energy security as the uninterrupted availability of energy sources at an affordable price. Current levels of energy technology and infrastructure necessitate back-up for intermittent renewable energy, which remains dependent upon fossil fuels, primarily gas. This is likely to remain the case for much of the transition period to a carbon-neutral future, and it would be a disservice to the public to pretend otherwise.

It's understood that the proposed gas-fired power plant on Caernarfon's former Seiont Brickworks quarry site would be a short-term operating reserved plant or peaking plant. This would provide rapid response and balanced demand, particularly when wind and solar outputs are low. How does the Welsh Government propose to ensure energy security during the years of transition to a carbon-neutral future in order to ensure that people can stay warm, fed and hydrated without interruption? 

As the Member knows, I can't and won't comment on the individual application. I recognise the fact that he's talked about it in some detail and I won't respond to any of that. Gas is the predominant peaking technology; hydro and battery storage are also in use as well. That is a fact and a reality. None of that moves away from the position I've set out that there is a presumption against new fossil-fuel-powered production in Wales. Each application must be considered on its merits, which is exactly what will happen with any application the Member has raised today or may do in the future. I do not want to commit myself to any form or indication of support or otherwise for the application the Member has mentioned at some length.

Thank you for the question. I have appointed a Minister for Mental Health and Early Years, and I should note that it is Mental Health Awareness Week this week. Jayne Bryant's portfolio also covers areas related to children, young people and families. However, the duties set out in the Rights of Children and Young Persons (Wales) Measure 2011 apply to, and are the responsibility of, all Welsh Ministers.

Thank you for your response. I would also like to associate myself, on behalf of the Welsh Liberal Democrats, with extending our sympathies to the family of Owen John Thomas as well. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

I am very clear that the appointment of Jayne Bryant in the role of dedicated Minister for Mental Health and Early Years is really positive. But it isn't the same as having a dedicated Minister for babies, children and young people. I was encouraged to hear you say that the Government is dedicated to the eradication of child poverty, but we are frustrated that there is no Minister totally responsible for overseeing this aim in your Government. The Equality and Social Justice Committee, in its report 'Calling time on child poverty: how Wales can do better', noted that our current efforts in Wales in tackling child poverty lack strategic  cohesion, focused leadership and clear accountability. So, let's learn from other countries, perhaps.

If we look at New Zealand, Ireland and Norway, each has a dedicated Minister leading child poverty strategy. And, crucially, they outperform Wales in terms of the numbers of children living in poverty: in Ireland, 14 per cent; in New Zealand, 12 per cent; and in Norway, we have 11 per cent. And that's compared to the shocking 29 per cent that it's operating at here in Wales. We know that Wales does not have total powers to eradicate child poverty, but it does have some. So, I would like to hear from you why we can't be as good as the other countries, and why we need to put up with child poverty in Wales being at 29 per cent. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Thank you for the question. With respect, I don't agree that the design of Government and the titles of Ministers will resolve all of this as an issue. The lead Minister in the Government is Lesley Griffiths, as the Cabinet Secretary for Culture and Social Justice. This is an area where more than one portfolio needs to make a contribution to have the sort of impact that everyone, I think, in this Chamber would want to have.

It is about marshalling the range of different contributions that we make in different portfolios, from what we are doing on Flying Start—a real success story compared to the disinvestment in Sure Start that has taken place since 2010 in England, a genuine Welsh success story with really positive outcomes—to the pupil development grant that we provide. There's the work that we have done, and that I'm proud that we have done, on making free school meals free for every child in primary school, and the additional support that we provide to help people with school uniforms and additional items around the school day. These are practical measures that we take within our powers.

The Member will know that not all of the levers are in our hands, and I'm glad that she mentioned that. She will have seen this up close during her time in Westminster, when Conservatives continued to make tax and benefit changes that they knew full well would worsen the picture on child poverty. I am proud that she was on the right side of that argument then, and still is today. It is why we both need to see the action that we can take here in Wales, alongside a future UK administration that is prepared to look again at deliberate choices that made more of our children poor—to grow up in a life of poverty; more working-age adults in poverty; more children with an adult in their home who is living in poverty as well.

Our economic future is a part of this, together with the changes that I belive are necessary for tax and benefits. I look forward to working with what I hope will be a much more enlightened UK Government, which has a real commitment to making progress on child poverty, as we did in the first decade of devolution, when two Governments that were committed to taking action on this made real steps to lift hundreds of thousands of children across the UK, and thousands of children here in Wales, out of child poverty. I believe that we can do that again.

It's an interesting question that Jane Dodds raises today. But since we don't have a Minister for babies and young people, I would like to know what work the Welsh Government is doing to help parents of infants that have been discharged from special care baby units. I would also like to put on record my admiration and gratitude for the incredible work that doctors and nurses carry out in these units, such as the state-of-the-art sub-regional neonatal intensive care centre at Glan Clwyd Hospital in my constituency.

I'm sure that the First Minister will share these sentiments, and it's great to see that investment paying dividends for north Wales. But I would like to know how the Welsh Government is supporting parents of newborns that have recently been discharged from a special care baby unit. Motherhood and fatherhood is hard enough as it is, but for mothers and fathers of more vulnerable infants, this can be a particularly overwhelming experience. Thank you.

Well, I welcome the Members recognition of the investment that previous Welsh Labour Governments made in delivering the SuRNICC unit, not just the physical infrastructure, but the people required to staff that unit and to the quality—. It's a welcome recognition of the point that Carolyn Thomas was making about the fact that there are regular instances of high-quality care right across our NHS, including in north Wales, of course.

The support that is provided comes from what we look to do with our teams of midwives and, indeed, the additional support that can be provided through our community nursing team as well. I know that the support that we had from the health visitor was really important for us, and when you have additional need in the child you bring home, you expect there to be additional support, which is what that health service aims to provide. That's what I expect in every part of the country.

The Member has a difference experience, and he's welcome to raise that with Ministers across the health department field, but I hope the constituents in north Wales and every part of the country do have a level of care and expertise from the midwifery and health visitor family that tries to help them with the most difficult but also the most exciting steps in your journey as a parent.

The Senedd Cymru (Members and Elections) Bill will significantly enhance the scrutiny capacity of the Senedd. The public placed their trust in all Members upon election, including those who hold ministerial office, and those who will hold Ministers to account even more effectively through scrutiny of policy choices, legislation and spending plans, with a larger and fit-for-purpose Senedd.

Thank you, First Minister. Last week the Llywydd noted that, on marking 25 years of devolution, this was a people's Senedd and not a politicians' Parliament. In fact, she said it wasn't Sam Kurtz's Parliament, and I do agree with that. [Laughter.] Now, many people who have raised issues around this Bill with me have mentioned not only, obviously, the increase in the number of politicians, but a number of changes they feel takes that, if you like, sentiment away from the people of Wales and makes it less like the people's Parliament that it should be, whether it's the change to the voting system, whether it's enacting the changes without a referendum, or, indeed, the various amendments that were not supported by the Government to introduce a system of recall for Members where electors feel that their mandate should not continue. Now, I understand from what the Counsel General said last week that there does appear to be a degree of cross-party support for the system of a recall. Can you assure the Senedd that that will be in place ahead of the next Senedd elections in 2026?

Well, the starting point is that I disagree with the Member's claim that the Bill that we have passed to reform this Senedd will take our Parliament away from the people. I believe absolutely that people will still see a Parliament that works for them and with them. It is about the job that we do as elected Members to ensure that people feel welcome in what will happen. And if you look around the gallery, you see many people from parts of Wales who have come here to see these proceedings directly themselves—exactly what you would wish. And, actually, our colleagues in Westminster are kept further apart from people in the way that that Parliament operates. We're a much more open institution, and I hope we can keep that in the future as we expand and deliver on the mandate that came in multiple manifestos from the last election.

On your broader point around recall, the Government will work constructively with all parties and, indeed, the standards commission, on the work that they are doing, taking account, of course, of the comments made in Adam Price's amendments, which I'm pleased he didn't move to a vote, because I want to work with people, around the points on deception and honesty. Those have to be things, I think, that take account of the standards process. It may well not be Government legislation that delivers a change, but we are committed to work constructively with all parties to try to have this issue resolved before the next Senedd election, so it is in place so people understand the measures that would bite if Members fell significantly below the standards of conduct that we all should expect of each other.

Collapsing trust in politics is a problem for Parliaments in many parts of the world, but I think it's important to acknowledge that we are by no means immune from those questions of integrity, of credibility and accountability in this Chamber. If the First Minister accepts that, isn't it, I think, the urgent task of not just maintaining, but restoring trust in politics? It's not something, surely, that we can defer, or, indeed, delegate to a future Senedd. We have to show leadership and take responsibility in getting it right in this Senedd. So, the question to the First Minister is this: is he prepared to commit to bringing forward or facilitating legislation to address the primary legislative changes that are needed in relation to recall and deliberate deception, not in a future Senedd, but in this one?

I believe that's what I said, and I'm happy to restate: we will work with all parties in this place to try to have a workable answer that we can actually use and implement. I think it’s more likely, on this issue, that it should be a committee Bill rather than a Government Bill, but we will work alongside people to try to make sure that is delivered, delivered properly and delivered in this Senedd to apply to the next Senedd. I want this in place before people go to the polls, so everyone understands the rules that are in place and the expectations that people have to meet. This is a package, I believe, that will go alongside Senedd reform. So, yes, I want it done within this Senedd, I want it done properly, and I want it to be done a basis where there’s genuine cross-party support for the measures that I believe we will put in place. And I hope, as I say, for the support of Members of all parties to do so.

Thank you for the question. Pupil referral units are crucial in ensuring that all children receive the education they are entitled to as they can provide more one-to-one learning and a more focused approach to support the needs of the child or young person in question.

Diolch. Only last week we were talking about the huge number of school absences in Wales, which is frankly quite shocking. Now, according to Estyn’s latest annual report, there are 22 pupil referral units in Wales providing support to 969 students. During the 2022-23 academic year, 2,396 pupils accessed some kind of education otherwise than at school provision. The most commonly used settings were PRUs, having nearly 50 per cent of all enrolments. According to Estyn, too, since the pandemic local authorities have reported increases in referral rates. However, in Aberconwy, we have reached the point now where all provision is full. I know of a school where the local authority is unable to provide any waiting times; it’s indefinite if you have a child that needs to go to a pupil referral unit. The head himself, now, is trying to look at establishing their own PRU, and I’ll be writing to the education Minister to support this. First Minister, there is an urgent need to create more capacity in our PRUs, not just serving Aberconwy, but across Wales. How will you work with schools and the local authorities to ensure that children and young people are not left feeling disenfranchised from the Welsh education system, and make sure that, where those children need a pupil referral unit, to help them to get the basic knowledge and learning that they require, they can do so in Wales? Diolch yn fawr. 

The Member raises a genuinely serious issue, and I do recognise it. I'm sure that Members in their regions and constituencies will recognise the additional challenges that our schools are facing. There are a significant number of societal challenges that you see within schools at primary and secondary. Some of that is from the pandemic, some of that comes from other sources, too, but you see them in all of our schools. It's an additional challenge for staff in schools and, indeed, for the learning environment. That's why, when the education Secretary sets out reforms, you'll see a focus on the things that we need to do to help improve outcomes for all of our learners and how health and well-being underpin all of that. 

There is, though—. I think the Member mentioned attendance. We're making some progress on attendance. We're now over 90 per cent. The challenge, though, is that, actually, for some of our learners, likely to be our least advantaged learners, we still haven't made the same progress. There's more to do on this, and this is work that the Government needs to do alongside local authorities. It isn't an area to wave a big stick; it is an area where we need to work alongside them, because every local authority will understand the pressures they face. Regardless of the political leadership, members in every ward will have the same challenges and want to see action taken. So, for those children and young people where the school isn't the right environment for them, they can be properly supported to have the best possible educational outcomes to make sure they have a proper platform for life outside of school. So, that's the work we'll be doing alongside them.

Thank you for the question. A number of key activity areas within stage 1 of our initial implementation plan have already progressed at pace through our 'Rebalancing Care and Support' programme. That includes establishing a national office for care and support. Research activities and, indeed, the question of the future funding of social care are planned to commence. And, of course, we may have more funding available to us in the nearer term depending on the budgets available to this institution. 

And you're absolutely right to say that the important first step to that national care service for Wales was the launch of the new national office for care and support. That important service will play an important role in supporting the chief social care officer to deliver on the national care service for Wales. And from what I understand, it will also play a key role in implementing the national commissioning framework for care and support in Wales. First Minister, do you agree that we maintain the action that is under way to direct resources where they're needed the most in order to provide outcomes and meet the needs of our older population?

Thank you for the question. I want to start by recognising and paying tribute to the work that Julie Morgan did when she was a member of the Government on taking forward this reform and improvement area. Dawn Bowden will now lead on the work that still needs to be done to deliver a national care service, and I believe it will make a big difference for older adults, but also, alongside the reforms that will be commencing, more of that will take place next week for children and young people that will also access the social care system. We know that the system we have at the moment needs significant improvement and transformation.

I believe a national care service with national standards, clarity on what the requirements are to look after our staff, clarity on the service that people could and should expect will make a significant difference in both making better use of money but also a better experience and better outcomes for people regardless of what stage of their life they're at. I would like to see that significant transformation, the change in the resources required, continue to take place. We're getting ready to do so.

I believe that's another good reason to want to have a change in Government at a UK level. We'd be much better off in being able to undertake this reform if we could take account of the interaction with the tax and benefit system that affects people of all ages. Having a UK Government prepared to come along with us on this transformation and reform journey would, I believe, have a longer lasting approach to this so that we could actually take steps and much more rapidly too. 

Finally, question 8, Luke Fletcher. 

I had a pragmatic and candid meeting with the chief executive and managing director and the chief financial officer from Tata Steel in Mumbai on Friday last week. I will be making an oral statement about the visit later today. 

Thank you for that response.

And I'll declare, Llywydd, that I'm a member of the Port Talbot transition board before asking my question, because it does revolve around some of the work of that transition board. Now, prior to the First Minister's visit to Mumbai, the Government and the further education sector were none the wiser as to who exactly would be at risk if Tata were to go ahead with their proposals. Now, if the transition board is to do its work properly, we need all the information on the table so that we can then plan for any potential outcome that may come from any Tata announcement. So, has that position changed and has Tata provided that information to the Government, and will, then, the Government provide that to the transition board so that it may do its work? 

There's plainly more to do. I was very clear about the need to have information about the direct workforce and, indeed, contractors as well. I know we'll go through this in more detail later on today. There is a question, though, not just about information but about how the transition board is constructed and whether it's the right vehicle to do the work that is required to support workers who could find themselves out of a job. And as we know, the outline plans that are in public would see significant job losses before the end of this calendar year. It's a matter of real concern to Members across the Chamber, real concern to myself and the economy and energy Cabinet Secretary who met trade unions last week. But much more so—and we should never forget this—it's a matter of real concern to thousands of workers and their families as we speak today. 

I thank the First Minister. 

The next item will be the business statement, and I call on the Trefnydd to make that statement. Jane Hutt. 

Thank you, Llywydd. There is one change to this week's business. Later this afternoon, the First Minister will make a statement on Tata Steel. Draft business for the next three weeks is set out on the business statement and announcement, which can be found amongst the meeting papers available to Members electronically. 

Trefnydd, can I call for a statement from the Cabinet Secretary for climate change, please, in order that we can receive an update on the Welsh Government's approach to recycling? You'll be aware that the UK Government announced last week its simpler recycling plan, which will enable local authorities and others to take a different approach to recycling, which enables all of the dry recyclables to be co-mingled. Now, this is something that happens still in Denbighshire—part of my constituency—where all of the dry recyclables can go into one bin. It's very simple, it's easy for the public to understand, and it stops all of the bin clutter that we see outside many people's homes, on many streets, and particularly in areas where you've got high densities of population in flats. In addition to that, they're extending the opportunity for businesses to follow that route, as many businesses already do in Wales. Now, Denbighshire had recycling rates—using that system—of 66 per cent in the year 2022-23. That's higher than Gwynedd, Ynys Môn, Wrexham, Rhondda Cynon Taf, Caerphilly, Merthyr Tydfil and a whole host of other local authorities that are required to separate their recycling at the kerbside. So, will the Welsh Government consider trying to simplify the recycling system across Wales, so that homes and businesses can co-mingle their dry recyclable waste, still achieve very high recycling rates across the country, but in a much simpler way for them to be able to deploy?

Well, thank you for that important question. This is a question where I'm really pleased to acknowledge—and I'm sure you will do, as you have, Darren—the huge success of Wales, of course, led by the Welsh Government, but as a result of all the partnership working with our local authorities, and, indeed, our communities and citizens. So, we are right at the top of the world league in terms of recycling rates. And, yes, of course, that has meant local authorities learning from each other and taking pace. In my constituency, we don't have co-mingling, and it all works extremely well and very effectively as well. But it is important that we recognise that we have made not just great progress—we've been leaders in terms of recycling in Wales—but also, obviously, others have learnt from us, and that's where we can learn from any developments, but I think learning from us is the way it's happened with recycling. 

Trefnydd, a number of constituents have contacted me as a result of the announcement by the Royal Welsh College of Music and Drama that the programme of music, drama and acting lessons for children and young people is likely to come to an end because of the budgetary situation within the college. There is mention in the statement from the college of collaboration with National Music Service Wales on alternative offers, but there is no further detail on that.

I would like to ask, therefore, for an oral or written statement from the Cabinet Secretary for Culture and Social Justice in terms of this announcement, and for an update on any discussions she's had with the college. With so many children and young people having been affected—many of them in receipt of bursaries—this is something that could have a detrimental impact on them and their development as musicians and actors for the future.

Diolch yn fawr, Heledd Fychan, and I'm very aware of this recent announcement and the consultation on proposals to end some of the provision from the Royal Welsh College of Music and Drama in terms of working with young people, which could impact on Saturday music class provision, and also just to recognise that we need to look at this in the context of our national plan for music education. The Royal Welsh College of Music and Drama has stated that it remains fully committed to providing opportunities in music for young people and to creating pathways into professional training, and it will be continuing to deliver a number of areas of project work, including weekend immersive workshops in music, the national open youth orchestra residency and holiday courses.

But I think, as I said, it's also recognising that it has to align with our national plan for music education, particularly for learners who want to progress in playing an instrument. And it's a key partner organisation for our national music service, in terms of the national music service's model, and, of course, the college principal is chair of the advisory board to the service. So, obviously, it's an autonomous, independent body, the Royal Welsh College of Music and Drama, and it does take its own decisions, but, of course, we then work together to see ways in which they can focus on those links with the national plan for music education and the national music service.

Trefnydd, I'm once again requesting an urgent statement, but, this time, from the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care, regarding the ongoing situation at Withyhedge landfill site. Now, I heard the First Minister's response to the leader of the opposition earlier, and his replies did not fill me with confidence at all. Now, on Friday afternoon, Public Health Wales issued a statement, saying that odours and emissions from the site could be harmful to people's health and advising people to seek medical advice, which is something my constituents and I have suspected all along. Where has Public Health Wales been until now? There has been a problem at Withyhedge landfill site for months, and now it's looking increasingly likely that the community has been subject to toxic emissions. I've stood up in this Chamber week after week to raise this on behalf of my constituents, and there has been little support from this Government. Well, enough is enough. Welsh Government Cabinet Secretaries cannot stand back and wash their hands of this. There must be an urgent statement outlining exactly what the Welsh Government is going to do to support the community and stop this dangerous operator from harming people even further.

Diolch yn fawr, Paul Davies. You have raised this issue on a number of occasions at the business statement, and, indeed, the First Minister responded in full to the leader of the opposition. We recognise Public Health Wales's response and its statement last week, and, most importantly, recognise the concern amongst the local community and the need for that swift action, because, and it's been described vividly, of what that means for that community and people living alongside it. Now, you will be aware that Natural Resources Wales have increased their presence on site; they are continuing to update the community via their website as activities progress. Enforcement notices have been served on the landfill operator, who has to cover all exposed waste and complete landfill engineering work to contain and collect landfill gas. That's the important outcome we are seeking. And if the landfill operator fails to comply with the final deadline of the notice, NRW will take appropriate enforcement action, in line with their enforcement and prosecution policy. So, again, I can assure the Member, and the Chamber, that NRW is responding, as a priority, to resolve the issue, and we do encourage residents, and, indeed, elected representatives, to continue to report any incidences of odour to them, because that, actually, helps inform the effectiveness of tackling this issue of onsite activity by NRW.

Good afternoon, Trefnydd. I'd like to request, please, a statement from the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care regarding the concerning state of dentistry waiting lists across Wales. Some good news from Powys Teaching Health Board in terms of children waiting for an NHS dentist: there has been a significant improvement. The figures now stand at 84 children only waiting for an NHS dentist, but we must remember that that is still 84 children. But the number of adults in Powys waiting for an NHS dentist stands at 4,200, which is a staggering number. One of the issues is this lack of centralised data and a central Wales waiting list. When I raised this issue first with the First Minister, he conceded that there had been delays in rolling out this national unified waiting list, but provided no timeline. So, I was just wondering if I could have an indication from the Cabinet Secretary of when we would have a centralised waiting list for NHS dentists in Wales. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Thank you very much, Jane Dodds, for your very important question.

This is important, and it's helpful that you have acknowledged that there has been action taken, and we see dental services being available to children, reducing those waiting lists, which is where we know the priority will be in terms of meeting children's needs. But, of course, there are adults as well. We have to make sure that we get consistency across Wales in terms of developing dental services. So, you will be aware that the Cabinet Secretary has commissioned Digital Health and Care Wales to develop an all-Wales digital solution, and this leads us to this prospect in terms of centralised waiting lists, an all-Wales solution, and it will provide people wishing to access routine dental care with a single and consistent way to register their interest. The system prototype was due to be completed by the end of the last financial year. I can confirm that the system now is due to be tested from mid July by Powys teaching health board, in your region. So, it will roll out across Wales, once the test has been completed and lessons learned from that process have been implemented. But this is a really positive step forward and, of course, it will benefit—. It's being tested in Powys, but will benefit the whole of Wales in terms of access to dental services.

I would like a statement from the Cabinet Secretary for Culture and Social Justice regarding a segment produced by S4C on Rhyl in my constituency that aired back in April. The segment was from a television programme called Hansh, and was intended for viewers to be given an insight into, quote, 'the wild world of strippers', unquote. The segment started with a montage of selectively edited vox pops, with people using  obscene language to denigrate and traduce Rhyl. And I'm no Mary Whitehouse by any stretch and by no means a prude, and I have no issue with the subject of the episode; indeed, every industry deserves representation. But I do think it's disappointing that a public service broadcaster would choose to portray my constituency as seedy, playing into harmful stereotypes about the town that we are working hard to change. I know that S4C is an independent public body, appointed by the UK Government, but, as a Welsh language public service broadcaster, we should have some say over its content and running, particularly when the content insults the people it's attempting to entertain or educate. [Interruption.] So, could the Cabinet Secretary outline the view of the Welsh Government on this particular S4C programme, and outline what representations are made to the channel regarding its content?

Well, I do think, has been echoed around the Chamber, and, as you said, S4C is an independent public broadcaster. I think you've made your views known, and presumably you've conveyed your views to the public broadcaster, and I think that's the appropriate route to take. 

The Redhouse building in Merthyr Tydfil has been forced to close its doors. I'd appreciate a statement setting out the importance of keeping venues like this open. The building is vitally important for residents. It was the town hall, more recently it's been an arts centre, but it's also proof of the area's past. It was built at a time when Merthyr was at the centre of world industry, and the area in front of it was the scene of the Merthyr Rising. Surely, there's an intervention that the Government can make here. The venue is owned by a local housing association, but the arts centre it houses is run by a leisure trust. Transferring the business has apparently been stalled because of questions over financial viability. The reason I'd like a Government statement is that something similar happened recently with the Aberfan community centre. Now, that venue's future now looks more secure, in part, I think, because of public anger. But the people of these valleys keep getting things taken from them: their services, their assets, their jobs. There are jobs at the Redhouse at risk right now. So, can a statement, please, acknowledge the importance of keeping these buildings in use for the community, so that they don't turn into relics, they aren't just testament to what we used to be, but that they are protected for our future? 

Thank you for your question. 

These are buildings of our heritage, aren't they? And indeed, I'm not sure about that particular building, but I suspect it has over the years benefited from not only public funding via the local authority and, indeed, Welsh Government, but also from European funding, for which there was a huge programme for regenerating and preserving and refurbishing these buildings. And, of course, when they do provide those services and those facilities, like the arts facility that you describe, that is where community use and access to those services must be protected, if at all possible, but we are in such difficult financial times in terms of public finances. But, of course, there are community asset transfer options. I don't know how much the community and, indeed, management and trustees have accessed services from, for example, the local council for voluntary services, but I think it would be good if you could certainly write to the Cabinet Secretary for Culture and Social Justice, so that all avenues could be explored on behalf of that facility in your constituency, in your region.

Trefnydd, I would like to request a statement from the Cabinet Secretary for Culture and Social Justice, please. Welsh National Opera is currently engulfed in a crisis that threatens its future as our flagship arts organisation and only full-time opera company here in Wales. Welsh National Opera is the jewel in Wales's crown. It is the largest arts employer, created in the 1940s by a group of doctors, miners and teachers who wished to build a performing ensemble that would live up to our reputation as the land of song. Welsh National Opera currently stands on a precipice, having received cuts from both the arts councils of Wales and England that amount to 25 per cent of its yearly budget. This is clearly completely untenable. Unless further financial help can be found, WNO is going to be forced to make its orchestra and chorus, the beating heart of the company, part time. It's scaling back its touring venues and has already offered voluntary redundancy to the rest of the company. This will result in a loss of vital skills across the organisation. Without increased funding in the short term, WNO will be unable to continue to deliver a substantial offer of opera education and engagement in wellness programmes, providing artistic, community, educational and health benefits across our communities the length and breadth of Wales. The quality and output of Wales's flagship arts organisation will be severely diluted in the UK and beyond. It is crucial that the Cabinet Secretary comes to the Chamber with a statement that informs us of her recent discussions with the UK Government and also eases the current fears and ensures that the long-term future of Welsh National Opera is no longer in doubt. Diolch.

Diolch, Laura Anne Jones. This was raised in the business statement, certainly, last week as well. Obviously, there have been high-profile, public questions and concerns raised about Welsh National Opera, which we dearly, dearly treasure. Wales's culture and sport sectors are an integral part of our society and well-being, and they enrich our communities and inspire future generations. We do recognise as a Welsh Government the social, cultural and economic value of the arts sector in Wales, including opera. But, of course, as you know, Welsh Government funding for the arts is channelled through the Arts Council of Wales. With our arm's-length funding principle, the investment review, of course, was an issue for the Arts Council of Wales. We don't interfere with the Arts Council of Wales's funding decisions. So, that's led to very difficult decisions when it comes to funding, but I note that opera is receiving 71 per cent of the total spend on the music sector for 2024-25. But, of course, as you've said and as has been acknowledged, the budget cut from Arts Council England has had an adverse impact as well, and, of course, that has an impact in terms of touring opportunities for Welsh National Opera. I think this is something where we need to take account of what is emerging. Of course, the Cabinet Secretary for Culture and Social Justice is engaging in her role, and recognising that this is something where we need to look at the really dire situation we are in in terms of funding—up to £700 million less in Wales in real terms, of our budget, as a result of UK Government cuts has meant these extremely difficult decisions have emanated.

Finally, Sam Rowlands.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. Trefnydd, I'd like to call for a statement from the Cabinet Secretary for health outlining actions to deal with the recent increase in cases of whooping cough. Currently, we're experiencing a peak year for the infection, with some of the highest rates causing concern in babies under three months old, who are a particularly vulnerable group, and five of those babies have sadly died as a result of the infection so far this year. Recent data published by the UK Health Security Agency showed over 1,300 cases confirmed in March alone, which is deeply concerning. We know some of this cause is linked to fewer children receiving their vaccines. Indeed, around only 93 per cent of children have received their six-in-one vaccinations up until now. I think it would be important for this Senedd to receive an update from the Cabinet Secretary on whooping cough numbers and how the Welsh Government is working to bring down any increases in those numbers and make sure that preventative measures are in place in order to protect people, and in particular babies, here in Wales.

Well, thank you very much for that question, because it is really important, as the First Minister said earlier on, that we encourage the uptake of vaccination. And, in fact, you've done that very ably this afternoon. He was referring to the measles outbreak in Aneurin Bevan University Health Board and that single case in north Wales, which shows that we have got to increase the awareness and uptake of vaccination. And, on whooping cough, I haven't got any details about the prevalence or emergence of whooping cough as an issue in terms of numbers of cases, but I will certainly draw this to the attention of the Cabinet Secretary. But, again, thank you for raising awareness this afternoon in raising this question.

I thank the Trefnydd.

Item 3 today is a statement by the Cabinet Secretary for Education: our national mission—delivering on Wales’s education priorities. I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Education, Lynne Neagle. 

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. It's a privilege for me to have been asked by the First Minister to serve as Cabinet Secretary for Education, a role that comes with unique opportunities to make a difference in the lives of people across Wales, especially children and young people. I am clear that I do not underestimate the profound responsibilities that come with this role, and I am in no way complacent about the scale of the challenge.

We have embarked on a significant package of reforms to transform the lives and opportunities of young people, but, at the same time, we must still focus on helping learners and staff to overcome the impact of the pandemic. There is excellence in every part of our system, but I am absolutely clear that we need to aim higher. In particular, we need to raise levels of attainment and close the gap for the poorest children in Wales. And the amazing staff in our schools, colleges and universities want a system that is more joined up and fit to help them face the future challenges of education.

I hope Members will know me well enough to know that my starting point will always be the best interests of our learners, and in particular our children and young people. I will lead an education system that puts them first. When I accepted this job, the First Minister was clear that he wanted a system that was focused on delivering sustained improvement in educational attainment so that every learner could fulfil their potential. Today, I want to set out some of the steps I will take to meet this challenge. I know we can’t do everything overnight, so it is important that, as the Cabinet Secretary, I am clear about the priorities for the immediate future.

My first message is that good mental health will be the platform on which our education system will be built. In my previous role as Deputy Minister for Mental Health and Well-being, I was pleased to work with my predecessor, Jeremy Miles, to introduce the whole-school approach to mental health, which I will continue to champion in my new role. It is fundamental to tackling the issues we have with attainment and attendance. It will continue to be a top priority for the Welsh Government. While I know the importance of good mental health and well-being for learners and staff, I also know that no single issue can be looked at in isolation. Reform and improvement must be aimed at creating a whole system that works for all learners. My job will be to make the whole system work together.

I want to be clear that I remain completely committed to the progress of Curriculum for Wales. I have seen first hand the outstanding work already happening in our schools through embracing the opportunities of the new curriculum. But, I have also heard clearly that schools want more support to make sure everyone is equipped to get it right. I will prioritise support on curriculum design, progression and assessment. I will work with teachers to ensure the right support reaches their classrooms and that they have the knowledge, resources and confidence to ensure that every learner and every part of Wales feels the benefit of the curriculum.

Last week, I gave evidence to the Children, Young People and Education Committee and participated in a Petitions Committee debate, both on additional learning needs reform, a vitally important but complex strand of work. It is vital we all work together to implement a system of ALN support that delivers for learners and which both parents and school staff can navigate. As I set out last week, a focus on ALN reform has been among my first priorities. I want to ensure firm legislative foundations are in place, and I want to strengthen implementation by improving the consistency of the approach being taken.

Collaboration, challenge and partnership working are key to driving forward improvement. I want the whole system working together to improve standards and to raise attainment, and to be ambitious for every single learner. Alongside overall improvements in attainment, it is vital that we close the attainment gap faced by our most disadvantaged learners. I will never accept that children from poorer backgrounds should settle for worse outcomes than their peers or learners elsewhere. I am committed to enhancing our understanding of the attainment gap and identifying where interventions can be best targeted to have maximum impact. I remain committed to the school improvement partnership programme, which is taking forward the findings of the strategic review of education partners in Wales. We are working with all of our partners to take the next step towards a self-improving system, focused on improving learning outcomes in Wales through a more collaborative and partnership-based approach. To be successful, we need to accelerate progress in some key areas: firstly, a strong professional learning offer that supports teachers and is focused on improving the quality of teaching and learning; secondly, a strengthening of school leadership to ensure every school sets the right culture for learners and staff; and maximising impact by getting the basics right, with a continued focus on improving literacy, numeracy and digital skills, including through the mathematics and numeracy plan. I expect every part of the system to be working towards the common goal of improving attainment, particularly within the poorest communities.

Of course, no amount of reform or improvement in our schools can be achieved without the dedicated and talented school workforce. I am committed to listening and working in partnership with the workforce, as we move forward with this programme of work. Our conversations will not always be easy, but I know that we share the same goal: delivering the best possible outcomes for children and young people. And the Welsh language continues to be a priority for this Government, and we will continue to work closely with partners to ensure that all young people achieve Welsh language skills required for life and work.

The consultation on reform of the school year recently closed, with one of the largest-ever responses to a Welsh Government consultation. It is important these responses are fully considered, and I will update the Senedd on the next steps in due course.

But I want to be clear that post-16 education is also a priority for me, and it is vital that we raise participation levels across further and higher education, including vocational education and training. The new Commission for Tertiary Education and Research will be a vital partner in achieving our ambitions for a more connected and co-ordinated tertiary sector, with high-quality education and world-leading research at its heart. I will focus on improving routes into vocational education and training, including ensuring parity of esteem, creating a clear 14-19 pathway for learners and raising participation across all areas.

I also want to recognise the pressures our colleges and universities are currently facing. Many of these pressures are not unique to Wales and represent a wider set of challenges. I want us to work together, including hearing the voices of students, in responding to these challenges. It has often been said in recent years that education in Wales is on a journey. I commit to always doing my best to steer education in the right direction and get us on track. Diolch.

Can I thank the Cabinet Secretary for her statement today? But, I'm afraid to say that was a business-as-usual statement for an education system that is crying out for change. Wales's education priorities are clear: they want to make sure that, when their children go through our education system, they get a world-class education. We know all too well that PISA scores aren't anywhere near as high as they should be, and whilst we're seeing success stories elsewhere in the United Kingdom in educational attainment, after 25 years of this Welsh Labour Government, we sit at the bottom of the league tables in every single subject, and things seem to only be getting worse, Cabinet Secretary.

We heard that the latest set of reforms would change everything: 'We just need to give things time to bed in, and we'll see those improvements.' But we've heard that time and time and time again from Welsh Labour Ministers, and things only seem to be going in the wrong direction. For example, back in 2009, the then education Minister, Leighton Andrews, said that the PISA results for that year were, and I quote,

'a wake-up call to an education system in Wales that had become complacent'.

Well, fast forward 15 years, and the results today are even worse. So, if the system was complacent then, what is it today?

There are significant problems with the latest set of changes adopted by this Welsh Labour Government. The Government has taken a decision to adopt a skills-based approach over a knowledge-based approach in our curriculum, and it seems that the UK Labour Party are intent on taking the same road. The problem with it, however, is that whilst the focus on a knowledge-based approach has paid dividends for pupils in England, the landmark Institute for Fiscal Studies report on education in Wales makes clear, and I quote, that

'declines have happened in essentially every country that has adopted such skills-based curricula'.

But yet that seems to be the model that the Welsh Government are intent on pursuing for our children. Dirprwy Lywydd, it isn't good enough. But, looking again at that IFS report, it makes clear that the differences in educational outcomes are not as a result of funding or even of poverty levels. The reason educational outcomes are worse here in Wales than anywhere else in the UK are, and I quote,

'differences in policy and approach.'

In short, where the Welsh Labour Government tinkers with the education system, it almost inevitably leads to worse outcomes for our young people. So, how will the Cabinet Secretary ensure that she's the exception and not the rule when it comes to this Welsh Labour Government and its failure to deliver on Wales's education priorities? 

It would be remiss of me if I didn't touch on ALN reform in the education sector. As you stated in your statement, Cabinet Secretary, you attended the CYPE committee last week to discuss it, as well as responding to a Petitions Committee debate on the topic, and you admitted that there was much to do in terms of getting those reforms right, and that many aspects hadn't worked as intended so far. But what worried me during that committee appearance was that much was made of the fact that the changes that you felt needed to happen wouldn't be able to be undertaken until the right data was made available. The problem was that the work of identifying exactly what data was required didn't appear to have started yet, let alone compiling and then assessing it, so it suggests that this may not be a quick process, and as you know, six months, a year, two years, can be an eternity in a child's life and can have a profound impact on their life chances. Your statement today, and your response to that committee, leave me concerned that you aren't looking at the need to fix the clear issues with ALN reform with the urgency that it so clearly deserves.

Finally, I just want to say that I think this statement today is emblematic of this Welsh Labour Government more widely. Whilst we heard warm words on educational attainment, mental health, ALN, the curriculum, post-16 education and so on, what we didn't hear was a single target, time frame, number, to judge any of those warm words against. How can we be expected to take this Cabinet Secretary's word at face value that things are going to improve when learners and teaching staff across Wales have heard exactly the same thing for 25 years? The evidence sadly suggests that education policy under this Welsh Labour Government is heading in the wrong direction. Wales's education priorities are clear. We don't want warm words; we want a plan, a plan to turn around the damage done to our Welsh education system by successive Welsh Labour Governments, so when can we expect one?

Can I thank Tom Giffard for his comments and questions, and say to him very clearly that I too want a world-class education system in the same way as everybody else in Wales does? I'm a parent, I can see the importance of having a high-quality education, and we want the best for all our children and young people.

I haven't been in any way complacent on the PISA results. I have said that they were disappointing. It is important to recognise that our PISA results were improving ahead of the pandemic, and I think it's also very important, given that you're putting so much weight on the IFS report, to be clear that the young people tested in those PISA tests had not been through our new curriculum. However, I am taking the messages in the IFS report seriously, even if I don't agree with all of their assessment.

You seem to be suggesting that we should pause all our reforms. I think that is a ridiculous proposition because we are now teaching Curriculum for Wales in all our schools. It still hasn't been fully rolled out. I have been very clear in what I said to the committee last week, and what I've said today, that I think we have more work to do in supporting schools who are finding it more challenging to deliver the new curriculum. Some schools are flying with it, but others have said to me, 'We need more support with that.' So, I am looking to deliver that support.

It is just not the case that we are valuing skills over a knowledge-based curriculum. That is a misunderstanding of the curriculum. Our new curriculum absolutely has a focus on knowledge, but, very importantly, on the discerning use of knowledge. We want our learners not just to have that knowledge, but to be able to take it and use it in different situations in their lives.

In terms of ALN reform, I have to say that I don't really think you were listening to what I said in the committee last week, although I'm glad that you did hear me and quote back to me today my point about a year being a long time in the life of a child, because I said that to emphasise how urgently I am committed to addressing this problem. I highlighted the challenges we've got with data. I know from my time as a health Minister that data is really important to drive good policy. We are developing a work stream to make sure that we have all the data that we need. But at no point did I say that we wouldn't be taking forward improvements without the data.

I explained to the committee that I have got a twin-track approach on this now. It involves a more consistent delivery of ALN across Wales, working with local authorities and schools, who are already working really hard to deliver this complex reform. But I also indicated that I recognise, based on what the president of the tribunal had said, that we had some work to do in making sure that the law was easily understandable for our partners. So, I made it clear that I would be taking forward that work immediately, to make sure that we get immediate improvements, while also looking at some legal clarification.

Just in terms of your final points on targets. The statement today is about priorities. I've been very clear that raising attainment and school standards is a priority for me. We are working on a plan that will be on the lines that I've described, which are around things like improved curriculum design, assessment, progression and a strong focus on literacy and numeracy. And, to underpin that, we are developing a whole information ecosystem that will tell us how our schools are doing. And that will build on what we're already doing with our personalised assessments. I've only been in post seven weeks; I think it's a little bit early for me to be thinking about targets. My priority is to get this right for children and young people, not to look for easy straplines.

It's quite difficult to disagree with your statement today. I appreciate that you are new, but you have been, previously, Chair of the Senedd's Children, Young People and Education Committee in the fifth Senedd and you've been part of the Cabinet, so I do think it's fair that we ask for more timescales and so on. I would appreciate it if you could commit today to when we will see that level of detail because, obviously, this isn't a post-election, new initiative for Welsh Government, and it's crucial that we do see progress, because after all what I didn't, I'm sorry, hear from your statement was the level of urgency required.

The First Minister, in response to Rhun ap Iorwerth earlier, said that he didn't want to spoil your statement or any announcements. I'm afraid that I was expecting more, and I'm sure higher education institutions would have been expecting more, given what we've seen. The fact that some universities might close, the fact that some courses aren't running that are crucial in terms of our skills, these are urgent questions and I'd like to see urgent action from you. Warm words and listening are not enough at this point, I'm afraid.

There's a recruitment and retention crisis. You mentioned strong professional learning, but what I would like to know is: how are we going to attract teachers, because we know that those bursaries that have been in place haven't always been taken up, that money has been made available to meet some of the budgetary pressures? So, with 75 per cent of teachers having contemplated leaving the profession according to the NASUWT survey in 2022-23, and 78 per cent of them stating that they do not recommend teaching as a career to friends and family, how are we going to turn things around? The workforce are crucial, yet we're failing to recruit and retain teachers.

Violence, both verbal and physical, in schools is increasing. Education and support is often described as a postcode lottery, and this is particularly true in terms of Welsh education and additional learning needs support. And when we look in terms of school absences increasing, the attainment gap widening, a decrease in the number of 16 to 18-year-olds participating in education and subsequently a decrease in the number of young people living in Wales applying to university, I'm afraid we can't wait.

On the new curriculum, the one thing that you mentioned whilst you were giving evidence last week was about creating a scaffold around schools. Well, you'll be aware that much of the support has been provided by regional consortia in recent years, but this approach has been proposed to end, following the ongoing review of school improvement services. I'd like to know if you can confirm today what the Welsh Government approach is to the review, and what scaffolding will be available to schools if the consortium model disappears. And specifically, what lessons in terms of the new curriculum are being learnt from Scotland, so that we understand that those curriculum reforms that we were excited about are actually being delivered, to have that impact for our pupils? Because I hear from parents and teachers that they are still uncertain, and what that might mean then in terms of the impact on education. We can't experiment on those children. We need to get it right the first time around. And we know that teachers are asking for more time, more training, and yet we're at a point where schools are failing to recruit teachers for some of these subjects, so it is really concerning.

You heard, earlier, Rhun ap Iorwerth ask in terms of the Migration Advisory Committee's review, and that it had found today that there is no widespread evidence that the post-study visa is being abused. So, can I ask, therefore, how are you going to be working with the universities in these challenging circumstances?

I've got a number of questions, I'm afraid, Cabinet Secretary, and I think one of the things—. If you will allow me, after reflecting on all of your responses today, I will be writing to you as education spokesperson, and perhaps rather than try and cover everything today, I would appreciate an opportunity to discuss with you about some of the urgent things that need to be prioritised, and how we ensure that it's not just listening, but actually taking action on all these issues.

Thank you very much, Heledd, and of course I recognise that this isn't a post-election statement and that I did chair the committee, which I finished three years ago, but I did feel it was important, coming new into post, that I had time to take stock of what's happening, to listen to as many teachers, school staff, children and young people and others as I can. But it is absolutely about taking action as well.

In terms of timescales, I plan to set out a more detailed plan on raising attainment and school standards during this term, so hopefully before the summer, anyway, you'll be able to have more information on that.

You've raised the recruitment and retention problems with me previously, last week in questions. I do recognise the challenges. I hope that you also recognise that we're working really hard as a Government to promote teaching as an exciting, engaging profession to work in. I think the Curriculum for Wales will help with that. It's next-level teaching and learning, as far as I can see, and I think it would be really appealing for staff to have that agency, working with our new curriculum. But, in addition, we have invested money in the various bursaries that we have. That’s always challenging when we’re struggling with finances, but we’ve continued to do that.

Just to say that I am acutely aware of the pressures that schools are facing, that they’ve got a huge range of societal problems coming into the classroom, that there are challenges with behaviour. You’ve referred to violence; I met with the schools partnership council this morning and we had a really good discussion about behaviour. I’m going to be doing some more work with them on that to make sure that we give them every support they need on that, not just through things like our new behaviour toolkit, but more generally to look at what we can do to make sure that we support them. And we’ve talked before about things like education support, which is providing support for their well-being.

In terms of ALN, you heard me acknowledge last week—I think I was pretty candid with the committee—the challenges that we’re facing, and you’ve heard me say to Tom today that I’m really committed to accelerating that work really quickly and that I’m very happy to provide further updates. Officials are currently working up with me a plan on taking forward those two areas of work, and I can provide a further update in due course.

In terms of the new curriculum, I did talk in the committee about scaffolding. I’m planning to make an oral statement to the Senedd in July, which is the annual report on the new curriculum, and I’ll set out more detail then. But what has been made clear to me from the conversations I’ve been having and officials have been having is that schools would like more national professional learning for curriculum design, building on the success of the curriculum design pilot programme. So, we’re refining this and expanding access to high-quality professional learning, which will be available from the autumn. They would like simplified detail on what progression looks like to help schools understand expectations at different points. They would like some examples of curriculum content, what topics and context could be developed across the curriculum. This is about bringing the curriculum to life for schools.

We’re looking at templates to support schools and teacher planning, both for designing curricula and also assessing the progress learners are making, and better support for schools to build a shared understanding of learners’ progress, to raise the bar of evaluations of progress across schools and enable a more consistent level of challenge across schools’ curricula. But I do have to be clear that some schools are flying with the curriculum, and we don’t want to inhibit the schools that are doing really, really well with it; this is about supporting the ones who need a bit of extra support with what they’re doing.

You referred to the MAC review: I did meet with the Migration Advisory Committee a few weeks ago to talk about their plans, their review of the graduate route, which I was really worried about. I was very clear to them that further restrictions like that would be hugely damaging to higher education in Wales. I am really pleased that they have recommended not making further changes to that, and I will be making representations to the UK Government to urge them to listen to the review. This is also a policy that they’ve taken forward in haste, and that isn’t a good way to make policy. I know how deeply concerned in the discussions I’ve had with universities they are about the impact of the falling numbers of overseas students, so we absolutely have to prioritise this.

And just to conclude by saying I’m very happy either for you to write me or if you want to sit down and have a discussion to allow more time to do that. I’m very happy to do that.

I welcome very much the statement you've made this afternoon, Minister. There are two issues I would like to raise with you this afternoon. First of all is additional learning needs. You will remember that I was the Minister who was responsible for taking through the legislation to reform additional learning needs in Wales. I think it was about five or six years ago now we faced each other across the committee table. It's fair to say that I'm pretty disappointed with the way it's been delivered since then, and I would value the opportunity to discuss with you, Minister, why it's taken so long to get some of these things right and to ensure that pupils and learners with additional learning needs have their needs met in the way that the legislation foresees.

The second matter is about Blaenau Gwent. You'll be aware that headteachers from across the borough along with counties elsewhere in Wales have written to all parents talking about the impact of austerity on schools and the impact that falling budgets is having both on schools' ability to deliver the curriculum, but also the richness of the school experience for pupils in the borough and elsewhere. I'd be grateful if, Minister, we could meet to discuss how the Welsh Government can work with local authorities to ensure that all our children have the rich educational experience that everybody has a right to expect and how we can ensure that every child is able to meet the whole of their potential.

Can I thank Alun Davies for his questions? Indeed, I remember you taking the legislation through. I think it is important that we remember it is a complex reform, it's a nought to 25 system that provides a unified plan for children and young people, rather than the system of special educational needs where we had those three tiers of support. For that reason, we have undertaken it in a phased way, moving different groups of learners from SEN to the new ALN system, and I think that is the right thing to do. It's important to get it right, and as you heard me say today, there are some challenges in terms of consistent implementation of the legislation that are a priority for me to resolve.

In terms of the issues you've raised about headteachers in Blaenau Gwent, obviously, the cause of that is austerity, as you've rightly pointed out. I just wanted to say that I really recognise the pressures that schools are under and how difficult things are at the moment. Our budget in the Welsh Government is worth £700 million less than it was at the time of the last spending review. We had a very difficult budget round where the decision was made to prioritise health and social care, along with schools through local government. So, we did uplift the funding for local government for schools. Also, the money that we put into the local authority education grant was £379 million, so we have done our utmost, even within the really difficult financial situation we're in, to protect that funding. But I don't want to give any impression that I don't recognise how challenging it is for schools, and we're continuing to work with schools and local authorities. Of course, they all work together as well through the budget fora. But I'm very happy to have a further discussion with you about that.

Child poverty exists in every part of Wales, causing serious and lifelong harm to our nation's future. We know poverty has a huge impact on learning. Children in poverty are more likely to underachieve, miss out on extracurricular activities and experience bullying at school. It was disappointing to hear no reference to reducing the costs of the school day in your list of priorities, because, Cabinet Secretary, there are no-cost changes that could really make a difference. For example, although the Welsh Government has issued statutory guidance for school governing bodies on uniforms that covers issues of affordability, the only requirement is to have regard for the needs of children from disadvantaged backgrounds. According to Children in Wales, 79 per cent of those who responded to their latest survey said they still have to wear a school badge or logo, despite the guidance—79 per cent—and they say that banning logos would put £75 on average back in the pockets of families. Banning non-uniform days would address poverty-related bullying and absences. So, Cabinet Secretary, will you therefore considering implementing these two simple steps, and what further new measures are you considering to alleviate the impact of the cost of the school day on the growing attainment gap? Diolch.

Thank you very much, Sioned, for those very important points. Obviously, I had a limited amount of time in the statement, and I've tried to cover what ground I can, but I recognise how vital those links are between poverty and children's experience in school, and the cost of the school day is incredibly important. I'm sure you would acknowledge that, through the work that we've done together with yourselves, providing free school meals for all primary school children, which has been very effectively rolled out, is putting money into the pockets of hard-pressed families. We've got our school essentials grant, and that's apart from all the academic ways in which we're trying to tackle that attainment gap.

Thank you for raising the school uniform guidance. This is an issue that I feel very strongly about and always have. I know that Children in Wales are doing really important work on this and that they're working with families around the impact of poverty. I hadn't seen that figure about the badges; I do think that is really important. I will follow that up with Children in Wales and look at what more we can do in that space. You'll be aware that schools told us that they thought a uniform was important, it's about belonging, which is completely understandable. But I do think it's really important that all schools really think about the impact of the uniform on household budgets. And if other children are anything like my son—. I was keeping the school uniform shop in business, because he lost things practically every week—

You can afford to replace those things. 

Yes, absolutely. I do recognise that. What I'm saying to you is that I am taking this very seriously; I will take it away and have a look at what more we can do. Obviously, my predecessor reviewed the guidance, but I hear your concerns about the extent to which that is being implemented. I personally think it's really important; I don't want any children to be feeling the effect of stigma in the classroom.

Congratulations, Minister. As the former Minister for public health, I know that you know that obesity is a major challenge, and the strategies you used for raising the uptake of families entitled to the healthy eating vouchers mean that I'm absolutely confident that you will make your mark on this portfolio.

You absolutely understand that obesity is a major challenge, in particular the sobering fact that six in 10 children arrive at school, aged five, overweight, and half of those are obese. On our important investment in universal primary free school meals, I believe that the uptake is about 70 per cent. What conversations will you have with headteachers to try and embed getting children to grow, taste and cook the food that is going to help them grow and thrive into the curriculum?

And secondly, on secondary schools, how will you deal with the really serious shortage of students in STEM subjects and the way in which secondary schools are having to apply a dog-eat-dog competition in trying to obtain maths, science, engineering and technology teachers, when, without these specialisms, it's impossible for the child to get the entitlement that they have? This feels like a really wicked issue and one that I do hope you'll have time to think of a solution to.

Thank you very much, Jenny. I know that you are really passionate about tackling obesity and I think there are lots of opportunities for me to link up the work that I did in my previous role with the Minister for health, who has now taken on the responsibility for that.

The statistics that you've highlighted are really stark. As I said, the roll-out of the universal free school meals has gone really well. I believe the figures are well over 70 per cent now, but I would need to check that. I know that all bar three local authorities have fully implemented it and those other three will have implemented it by September, which is really good news. But it is a massive investment and we do have to get the biggest bang for our buck in terms of health with this. That's one of the reasons that one of the things we're going to be doing is reviewing the healthy food regulations to make sure that children and young people are getting a healthy meal at the same time. So, there's some further work to do there, and officials are working on that. 

Your point on STEM subjects is really well made and, as you're aware, we also have shortages in STEM teachers, which is obviously a critical issue that we need to address. And the bursaries that I mentioned in another answer are also available to people choosing to study STEM subjects. So, we're doing what we can to try and address those shortages.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary, for setting out your priorities. Now, we know that Wales is facing a significant skills gap—an issue that was highlighted in the Welsh Government's own 2022 employer survey, and an issue that's worsening over time. Now, what I was concerned about, as part of that statement, is that there is no single document that sets out the Government's detailed strategy on post-compulsory education and skills—something that actually would be of benefit, not just to education leavers, but also to those who are looking to transition into another sector of the economy at a later stage in life. So, will the Cabinet Secretary outline whether we can expect clearer skills planning from this Government, and what role will the Cabinet Secretary for the Economy, Energy and Welsh Language play alongside you in putting that plan together?

Thank you very much, Luke, and I know this is an area that you're passionate about. I'm sure you also wouldn't have expected me to set out all of the detail in the statement. I've been very clear that one of the issues that I'm most concerned about is our participation rates post-16, which do not fare favourably in comparison with the rest of the UK. Having that parity of esteem, building that skills base is vital. Working with employers to make sure that we can match the skills that employers need as well is crucial, and I will be working very closely with Jeremy Miles on this. Obviously, some of this sits in his portfolio. The new commission as well is a really good opportunity to get a more coherent picture on this, and really join up the working and get this right. 

So, Cabinet Secretary, on behalf of Islwyn, may I firstly welcome you to your post, and place on record my appreciation for your visit to Islwyn on one of your earliest engagements as Cabinet Secretary for Education, and also for your listening approach to the significant challenges and priorities ahead? It was wonderful to welcome you to Ysgol Gymraeg Cwm Gwyddon for its official opening in Cwmcarn—a Victorian school that my own child attended. 

Cabinet Secretary, the Welsh Government has led the way on capital investment in our school buildings in a desert of capital investment to Wales, transforming, through twenty-first century schools, the new, for instance, Welsh school in Cwmcarn, thorough the sustainable communities for learning programme, and I also hugely welcome the facilities for learners with additional learning needs included in the Welsh Government's announcement last week of a further £20 million for schools to improve additional learning facilities.

So, post COVID, and still in a time of so-called austerity, can you as Cabinet Secretary outline how this investment will help deliver your overall priorities of sustained improvement in education attainment, and your specific priorities on supporting learners with additional learning needs? And also will you please, if you may, comment to this place on the sudden announcement of the imminent closure at the Royal Welsh College of Music and Drama of its junior department—the pipeline of excellence, renowned for its equity and access for all, and where a visually impaired student of mine attended and flourished in full?

Thank you very much, Rhianon. It was a real pleasure to be in your constituency for the opening of that lovely school—really great to see the fruits of that huge investment. And we've invested well over £2 billion in our school buildings in Wales, and that compares very favourably to the choices made over the border. 

As you've highlighted, I announced an extra £20 million for ALN capital funding last week. That will be for local authorities and schools to plan the spending of in partnership with us. When I went to make the announcement at Ysgol Gymraeg Gwaun y Nant in Barry, I was able to see the new unit that they'd established there. Schools will have different needs, really. It might be for special units. It might be for equipment and what have you. So, I think it is very much about responding to local need.

In terms of the Royal Welsh College of Music and Drama announcement, can I say that I was very grateful to them for keeping me updated? I really do recognise how very difficult the financial pressures are facing higher education institutions in Wales, and recognise the really important work that they do. I know that they have plans to ensure that they do continue really valuable work with children and young people, and I've asked to be kept updated on that. As you're aware, we are committed as a Government to ensuring that children and young people have those musical opportunities—and you've been a massive champion of that work—and our £13 million national music service is making sure that every child has the opportunity to play a musical instrument, sing and make music. And I'm really committed to ensuring that that work continues.

And finally, Adam Price.

My colleague Heledd Fychan mentioned physical and mental and verbal violence in schools. That needed to be a priority, I think, addressing that, before the horrific incident in Ysgol Dyffryn Aman, but it's even more urgent and pressing now. That's why I was frankly surprised, exasperated, disappointed when I, after having had a conversation with the staff in the school, called for a national review of school safety, and the response from the Welsh Government spokesperson was that there were no plans for such a review. The staff, the students and parents of Ysgol Dyffryn Aman—they expect that review, they deserve that review, and that's true of school communities throughout Wales. The physical and mental scars of that incident are serious enough, but it could have been far worse, and unless we conduct that national review, I fear for what might happen in the future. I did write to your predecessor about concerns the school had in relation to policies in this area before the incident, and you may want to look at that correspondence and, indeed, correspondence between some of the school leadership and your officials, before making a final decision. But I urge you, Cabinet Secretary, school communities need this national review of school safety.

Thank you very much, Adam. Can I say again how much I commend the way that Ysgol Dyffryn Aman and the local authority and the local emergency services responded to that incredibly difficult situation? I really do recognise the impact that that will have had on everybody involved, and that that will be a long-term impact, and I've been very clear that, as a Government, we are there to provide any support that they need. They've put in place a really comprehensive package of support anyway, for the school community, but I've been clear that, if they need any more, we will provide that for them.

I think I'm aware of what you're talking about, although I haven't seen the letter that you're referring to, because somebody at the school did raise some concerns with me recently, about some aspects of policy around exclusion. So, I am looking at that. And I've also said that we will learn the lessons from what's happened there. It's really important that—. Obviously, this is subject to a criminal investigation now. It has to be handled sensitively, but I have got no doubt that there will be lessons to learn from it. And when you talk about a national review of policy, I was with our trade union partners and the Association of Directors of Education in Wales and the Welsh Local Government Association this morning; they are all looking at their policies for critical incidents, checking that they're working, making sure that they're up to date. So, that work is actually happening. And I made the commitment this morning to our trade union partners that I am taking this work really seriously, in terms of that support that we put in place, to make sure that schools are safe, supportive places, for school staff and for young people.

You know yourself, Adam, that the issues around school behaviour are really complex. There are societal issues that are coming into the school, and I think it's really important to join up things like the work we're doing on mental health with that work on behaviour. But just to assure you, I am taking this very seriously. We are making sure that all areas are updating their policies and that they're being practised and everything. So, I'm not really sure how that differs, really, from a national review, if it's just the way you're describing it, because that work is happening. Everybody has taken what's happened really, really seriously. A few days after what happened in Ysgol Dyffryn Aman, there was a lockdown in Blaenau Gwent as well, following an incident there. So, you know, this is very uppermost in all our minds, so just to give you that assurance. 

I thank the Cabinet Secretary. Thank you.

The next item is a statement by the Cabinet Secretary for Climate Change and Rural Affairs: the future of farming in Wales. Huw Irranca-Davies to make that statement. 

Thank you, Llywydd. My vision is for a successful future for Welsh farming, producing food sustainably, looking after our environment and underpinning our rural communities. The sustainable farming scheme will provide support for farmers to deliver these objectives. My approach is about coming together, listening and working in partnership.

I have seen a draft of the analysis of over 1,200 consultation responses, and I want to thank everyone who took the time to respond. I expect to publish the analysis and the Government response in June, but it is already clear that some changes are needed. As set out previously, I am setting up a ministerial round-table to engage on what those changes should be. This will have farmers at the heart of the conversation, alongside others who have an interest in delivery of the benefits farming provides. The round-table will work at pace to identify areas of agreement and focus on areas where more work is required.

Responding to Plaid Cymru, as part of the co-operation agreement, the farming unions and others, the scheme is designed to support all farmers in Wales with an annual baseline payment, in return for universal actions, replacing the basic payment scheme. These universal actions will provide a platform for farmers to do more through voluntary optional and collaborative actions, which will help farmers realise economic, environmental and social benefits aligned to our sustainable land management objectives and in support of our national and international commitments. 

The SFS must be accessible to all farmers and provide the right level of support to help with business resilience. This is why we will include payment for the wider benefits farming provides, going beyond income forgone and costs incurred, to recognise social value. The round-table will help find an appropriate payment methodology, consider the outcomes from the carbon sequestration review and the updated economic assessment based on the revised scheme. The scheme will support farmers to work with the supply chain to meet changing consumer demands and create new market opportunities. It will focus on food production, but lever the opportunities from timber and sustainable management of the land, such as green finance and carbon sequestration, in support of protecting our communities, our language and our culture. 

My commitment to engagement, and to give farmers the time to consider the consequences for their businesses before deciding on joining the scheme, will necessitate a change in the implementation timetable. We will not introduce the scheme until it’s ready. We will initiate a SFS preparatory phase in 2025 to demonstrate the benefits of the proposed universal actions through knowledge transfer, targeted activity and financial support. This will better prepare farmers for entry into the scheme from the start of the proposed transition period in 2026. There'll be engagement with farmers on a data confirmation exercise, to provide an accurate picture of the habitat and the tree cover across all farms. Under the 2024 Habitat Wales scheme, we saw an increase in the area of habitat land under management. So, building on this, I’ll explore giving more farmers the opportunity to access support in 2025, including support to organic farmers.

Existing schemes, such as the small grants schemes, will continue to support infrastructure changes, and we're working on a new integrated natural resources scheme, building on previous landscape scale collaboration. Initially, the aim is to support the development of proposals for further funding. We will focus on schemes that align with SFS and that are expected to provide support in future as optional and collaborative actions.

We intend to undertake activity on sites of special scientific interest and to promote the opportunities of tree cover on farms. We will develop proposals for further optional and collaborative actions, with the aim of introducing these as soon as possible. And through Farming Connect, we will work on knowledge transfer, focusing on on-farm efficiencies and activity that aligns to SFS. To provide certainty, my intention is for BPS to be available in 2025, with the proposed SFS transition period starting from 2026. I will make announcements on the 2025 BPS ceiling and details of the preparatory phase in due course.

Maintaining high standards of animal health and welfare is essential to a thriving agriculture sector. I want Wales to be recognised for its exemplary standards of animal welfare and I'll say more on my plans in due course. I have heard, of course, first-hand the devastating impact that TB has on farms. We remain fully committed to eradicating TB in Wales by 2041. Partnership working is crucial to reaching our shared goal of a TB-free Wales. As part of our five-year TB delivery plan, the technical advisory group is considering on-farm slaughter of TB reactors as its very first priority. I will be updating Members later this week on progress.

The agricultural pollution regulations are designed to tackle the causes of agricultural pollution in Wales. I have heard concerns about how the regulations aim to achieve this. We have initiated the four-year review of the regulations, and I want to identify if changes are needed. I will soon make an announcement on an independent chair for that review.

I have heard also about the impacts on the mental health and well-being of farmers and their families, and we will continue to work with the charities that provide such excellent support to our farmers.

The food and drink industry in Wales had a turnover from farm to fork exceeding £22 billion in 2022. My vision is for a vibrant industry with a global reputation for excellence. We want to be one of the most environmentally and socially responsible supply chains in the world, and we will continue to support Welsh food and drink businesses, including through Food Innovation Wales and Blas Cymru.

The focus across our food-related policies is on join-up, partnership and well-being. I intend to publish 'Food Matters: Wales', which outlines our food-related policies and how they support producers, including farmers, and the supply chain to increase the availability of Welsh produce. I want to see Wales at the forefront of a thriving and innovative agriculture industry, and I'm committed to listening and working in partnership to achieve this. Thank you very much, Llywydd.

I'd like to thank the Cabinet Secretary for your statement this afternoon, also your written statement this morning, and for speaking with me prior to the release of these statements earlier today. Can I just say that it is encouraging from you, Cabinet Secretary, that you have taken on board the concerns that I have raised with you on the future of farming support here in Wales? I believe it is a positive step to show that you are listening to the industry, the unions and those 12,500 people who responded to the consultation. The delay on the implementation of the sustainable farming scheme and committing to the rolling forward of BPS until 2025, is something that I and the Welsh Conservatives have called for, and we're very pleased to see that this is happening to give that longer-term security for our farmers across Wales.

However, for this scheme to be truly successful, ensuring a broad range of voices is heard is crucial. Therefore, I have some key questions regarding future collaboration and stakeholder engagement. I'm interested, Cabinet Secretary, in how the ministerial round-table is going to be structured to guarantee balance and representation from all farming sectors and relevant stakeholders, including those with specific concerns about aspects of the sustainable farming scheme. Can you also inform us today of what date you intend for this round-table to start? You said last week that you'd burn the midnight oil to make sure we get these things delivered at pace. So, it would be very interesting to know what timescales you've set on setting this up. 

Can you give some assurance to the industry as well that, when people partake in these groups, their voices are going to be listened to? Because something that came through during the co-design phase was that people fed into this, and it wasn't listened to. So, I'd like some assurances from you that they are going to be listened to. 

The announcement that you made this morning mentioned the sustainable farming scheme, including payments for social value, and this is a very interesting concept. But I think clarity on what that is is actually needed, because I do hope that this is a real positive shift and that, at long last, the Government here recognises that farming adds social value to Wales in terms of environmental, cultural and also economic value to our communities. 

We also know that the impact of the initial sustainable farming scheme was devastating for our farm businesses, with 5,500 job losses across the industry. So, I'd be very interested to know—I know Llyr Gruffydd has asked you this question as well—when are we going to see an updated impact assessment, because, if we're having changes to the scheme, obviously we're going to need a new impact assessment to see what any changes are going to do. 

As I said earlier, I and my group welcome the extension to BPS into 2025. This does provide some degree of certainty for our farm businesses. I know you said you'll be making an announcement in due course, but I think people today will want to know what that BPS rate is going to be. Will it remain unchanged into 2025, and what additional schemes, like woodland creation, are also going to be carried forward, going forward into 2025?

This pause does give us that opportunity to look at these proposals again, and we do need to see substantive changes to the sustainable farming scheme, because, in its current form, it doesn't work. But, if we need to get it to work, it needs to work for all farmers right across Wales, because the farmers that I speak to, and I'm sure the farmers who you've been speaking to, Cabinet Secretary, still have issues around the tree planting, around common land, around tenant farmers, around SSSIs and some of the universal actions, which some farmers find insulting and overly bureaucratic. And we do need to have some more detail from you about how you intend these changes to feed into your ministerial round-table to make sure that those changes are actually going to be implemented by Government so that, actually, the industry can get on board and actually deliver this scheme for you.

The statement mentions considering the outcomes from the carbon sequestration review for informing payment methodologies. What I'd like to know is: will the review look beyond the sequestration of trees and consider all different types of grass and also hedgerows, because that hasn't actually been looked at before, and I think that we need to have a big piece of work around the carbon sequestration of grass?

I was going to talk about animal welfare, but you said you'll be telling us about that in due course. And also you're going to be making a statement, hopefully, on TB. I hope it's being made to this Chamber, and not written, because I think it gives us an opportunity to scrutinise any work that you're doing. 

Cabinet Secretary, I've only got about 30 seconds left, but, from my point of view, this announcement today is welcome. It has been welcomed by the unions, and the people I've spoken to on the phone—my friends and colleagues that I've got in the industry—welcome it as well. And I put an open offer to you, Cabinet Secretary: I'm willing to work with you in a very open and pragmatic and constructive way to make sure that we can have a scheme that delivers for our farmers. But, as I said earlier, we do need to see fundamental change if we're going to make it work. Because that's what I want to see. I want to see a scheme that works, that delivers for future generations, delivers for our farmers now and ensures we have a vibrant rural economy in Wales, because doing that will deliver all the environmental, cultural and biodiversity benefits that you want to see and also the thriving farm businesses that I'm sure everybody around this Chamber wants to see as well. Diolch.

James, thank you very much, and thank you for your comments welcoming the announcement that was made on the way forward. And, just to say, it is a way forward. I used a rugby analogy earlier on in an interview. A lot of what we are doing now is the preparation for the roll-out of a scheme where there is actually a lot of agreement already—the framework, the objectives, not only in terms of food production, but also social value, environmental imperatives, climate change imperatives—but it's right to actually do some more work on those areas that have been identified in the consultation, which indeed—. We haven't seen the final, the full analysis of the consultation, but I've seen some of the interim findings, and it's pretty clear and obvious where those areas where we need a bit more work are. But it is some more work, and that's where the ministerial round-table becomes very important. And the way that that is working, the reason it is a ministerial round-table, is that there'll be a lot of work behind the scenes, not only with farmers and with the farming unions and so on, but also with the environmental and the wildlife groups as well, to make sure that we get the details right so that then we can proceed and we proceed in a way that all farmers can be part of this, because we need farmers to feel that they want to step up to the mark and be part of this, but we also need to deliver those wider imperatives.

You covered such a lot of ground there, James, but, just to say, very briefly, many of the issues that you covered are exactly the ones that the ministerial round-table, and the work that goes underneath it, is designed to flesh out. So, I am not going to pre-empt it.

So, when you talked about timescales, you will not have to wait long until we make announcements, both on the membership but also on the way that that ministerial round-table will take all this work forward, including, by the way, the streams underneath it. There are two or three areas that we want to bring forward underneath. One of those, by the way, is on sequestration, and it is trees and more. Because arguments have been put forward to say that there are other ways also to do sequestration. We need to test those arguments as well—not just accept them; we need to test them. So, I think that's the work that needs to be done.

We will be making a subsequent announcement on TB, as you say.

Economic impact: one of the conversations that we've had with the farmers' unions is that it was right for Welsh Government to put in front of the public the economic analysis that we had, but it was actually two years out of date, and it was based on a previous iteration of proposals. It wasn't even based on the most recent ones. However, we need to do an updated economic analysis, but the economic analysis needs to be done when we know the details of what that scheme will look like, and not before. Because we need to say to farmers, 'Well, here's the economic analysis, and here are the tools that we're going to lead through this transition as well.' And some of this could be actually creating new opportunities within our rural areas as well.

So, many of the things that you covered there are things that the ministerial round-table will—. And just one final, just to clarify: this isn't a pause whatsoever. There is actually work to be done now, in order that we can get to a point where everybody's on board with the detail of the full roll-out of a sustainable farming scheme that will be there, I think, if we get this right, for the generation ahead. It'll be dynamic, but, if we get this right, in this seven, eight years after EU withdrawal, then we put certainty, not just on farming, but on what we are trying to do as well with landscape management, on climate change and biodiversity and everything else, for many years to come. But thank you, James, for the welcome of this.

Thank you very much, Llywydd, and may I also welcome the statement made by the Cabinet Secretary this afternoon? I think it does strike a pragmatic and sensible note, and I thank you for that. It responds positively to many of the demands made by Plaid Cymru. I've raised many of these points in the Chamber, and I know—and I'd like to thank Cefin Campbell, as the designated Member as part of the co-operation agreement—that many of these issues have been discussed widely, and I thank Cefin for achieving so much on many of them.

Now, Plaid Cymru has been insistent and consistent as well in our call for a delay in the implementation. So, clearly, it’s something that I raised with your predecessor. She pushed back, saying that she wouldn’t accept it. I know initially that you were saying that maybe you could proceed with some elements where there was agreement, and others maybe would need more work. Well, I think that this is the right call, and I welcome the delay that you have outlined today.

The sustainable farming scheme will have an impact on generations of farming, and I think that we all know, deep down, that we have to get it right and not get it done quickly. Even if it means another year of uncertainty, another year of, some would say, unnecessary delay, I think that that 12-month period will be less painful than maybe 12 years and more of making the wrong choices. So, it is the right call, and I thank you for being willing to make that call.

So, it is an opportunity, as I say, to step back and reflect—not pause, because you’re saying that it’s not a pause, so I'll run along with that one, if that’s what you wish. But it is an opportunity to make necessary changes and to ensure, certainly, a buy-in, a greater buy-in, from the farming sector than we have seen so far, but also to make sure that we have scheme that is sustainable, in that it works for farming and for nature.

I think as much as we're refining or amending or changing elements, we're also, hopefully, using this process to build a consensus, a greater consensus, around the action that, collectively, we all need to take. So, I welcome the round-table approach. I think, again, that bringing those voices together is important. It is key that those with lived experience of farming sit around that table, because they will be able to tell us what works on the ground, and I think maybe that’s something that we maybe missed somewhat in the past.

But I want to ask you specifically: can you therefore confirm that your intention now is to no longer demand 10 per cent tree cover from all participants of the scheme? Clearly, you're looking at a broader range of options. That sounds to me like taking the insistence on 10 per cent off the table. It may work for some, but it will now not be a prerequisite of being part of the scheme. Maybe you could confirm that for us.

You referenced the universal actions in your statement. Are you still looking at 17 universal actions, because it read more like a wish list than a practical expectation of the sector, to be honest? Is there, as the round-table and these other groups do their work, now an admittance that maybe you need to rationalise that somewhat?

You reference that you'll develop proposals for further optional and collaborative actions with the aim of introducing these as soon as possible—that's what you say. Are you, therefore, saying that there is a possibility now that maybe those elements, or parts of those aspects of the scheme, could well be introduced at the same time as the universal elements in 2026? Because I know many in the sector, particularly in the environmental sector, would be concerned that that is where a lot of the heavy lifting in terms of achieving for nature will happen, but by delaying the universal, we may well be inadvertently delaying the collaborative and the optional aspects.

People still need to know how much money we're talking about. We can design a scheme, we can talk about principles, but until people know how that practically impacts the viability of their business on an economic level, and, of course, how that impacts how ambitious we really can be in terms of nature and the environment, then it's difficult, isn't it? We're floundering a little bit when it comes to knowing whether we're in or not. So, that further delay, I suppose, doesn't mean that you can articulate in any more solid form what kind of figures we are talking about, but it would be good to understand maybe whether you feel you can do more on that front.

The stronger focus on the social value of agriculture is something that we as a party have been calling for for some time. I think it is right and fair that there is financial recognition of the social, cultural and linguistic contribution made by the sector. Now, what that looks like, of course, will be the subject of debate, but I want to put it on record, as we as a party had ensured that that was in the agriculture Act, that we've very pleased to see the emphasis that you're placing on it in the scheme.

Finally, you refer to the technical advisory group on TB. Of course, considering on-farm slaughter is the first issue. Many of us want to see more far-reaching changes, but that is a priority. You suggest that you'll make a statement later this week. Can you tell us whether there will be a change on that front within weeks, not within months? Thank you.

Diolch yn fawr, Llyr. You've raised again many issues there, but can I thank you just for welcoming the pragmatic and sensible approach, as you described it, of the way forward? Because we do have to design a scheme that, when it is ready to go, brings everybody with it, and that does, by the way, include all those people out there who support the wildlife and environmental ambitions, including amongst the farming community, as well as the farming community themselves who are going to be so integral to delivering this, and building the consensus that you mentioned is the way forward.

Just to pick up on a few of the things that you said there, in terms of funding, I'm pleased that we've announced today that we will actually take forward the BPS funding currently, to give some certainty going forward. Now, in doing so, I have to say that I'm asking those in the Chamber behind me to be good and strong behind me, and make representations as well, because we're going to be asking the UK Government to provide at least the same level of funding as we received this financial year, plus inflation, plus more, if they'd like to give it to us, please. The Bill is £339.6 million, please, plus inflation, and anything else they want to throw in. We are working—our officials are working internally, and with colleagues in other administrations—to develop our funding ask. We do know, of course, that that still leaves a short of what we had anticipated when all those great debates were going on about leaving the EU, but we have the funding package that we have and we've got to work with it. And fair play to the farming unions as well, even though you have voices saying, 'Well, get it from somewhere else', those arguments, they do accept that we've got to actually put the ask somewhere else here, to assist with that. But by announcing that the BPS will continue for 2025 now, I'm trying to give as much certainty as I can without knowing the future budget position, but it's a clear statement of our intent. So, I'll try to make an announcement on other details, such as the ceiling, in due course, but it won't be too long, hopefully, there.

The other aspects I wanted to touch on—. You talked about trees and carbon sequestration. Carbon sequestration actions in the scheme is an example that I think does need and does merit further consideration. So, I've confirmed that we're convening a carbon sequestration evidence review panel, which will feed up into the ministerial round-table. I expect the group of partners undertaking this work with us to focus on the evidence associated with actions to support additional carbon sequestration, and the scale of opportunity that we may have in Wales. Now, I'm going to await the outputs of that work before taking any decisions, and whilst it might be slightly frustrating, there's a reason we're going to set some of these in path to actually lift up then to the ministerial round-table. But I will keep Members informed as it comes in front of us. I don't want to pre-empt it.

But trees on farms, let's be absolutely clear: they've got multiple benefits other than carbon sequestration. That includes, by the way, some that are often not mentioned, such as shelter for livestock, the reduction of flood risk and improving water quality. There are many positive reasons for farms to consider tree planting, and indeed many do, and many do want to go further. I'd simply say as well that we are already and will continue offering the grants for woodland creation through the woodland creation planning scheme and the woodland creation grant scheme, because these will continue to be available, and we'll be actively promoting them through the preparatory phase. There's no reason for anyone considering planting trees on their land to delay that decision if they want to proceed. So, this is not that we're pausing everything, we're stopping everything; we want to go ahead with that.

You raised a lot of items there. The phasing of the universal, optional and collaborative approaches, this is a really interesting one for the ministerial round-table. Because there are, and I remember when we were in the climate change committee at that evidence session, there were different views put forward. One of the things within the funding envelope we have to do in this preparatory phase is decide where the optimal mix is here of those universal parts of it alongside those other ones, which could indeed take us much further in terms of biodiversity, environmental gain, climate change, flood alleviation and so on. But we're going to have to consider very carefully where the right balance lies, because ideally we would just want a heap more funding to do a heap lot more, but we haven't got it, so that's where the ministerial round-table, and ultimately I, will have to make some decisions.

And it is worth saying, Llywydd, as well, that I don't think this is going to be plain sailing, easy sailing. There will be some points where it's going to be for me as Cabinet Secretary to sign off and say, 'This is now where we go and where we stand', but to pick up that overarching point that you made, we will do this in an open, collegiate, co-operative manner, working together. When we come to difficult points, that's what I get paid for. But we'll do it based on the evidence we see and the arguments put forward, and that's why it is worth taking just that little bit more time to get this right. But thank you, Llyr, for the other points you raised, the ministerial round-table will bring them forward for discussion.

Thank you. I just wanted to ask you about trees and soil health. The WWF seminar that took place two weeks ago, which you weren't able to attend, which Llyr Huws Gruffydd was chairing—I don't recall seeing James Evans there—and I think that some of the important messages that came from that—[Interruption.] Some of the important messages that came from that were the work done by Niels Corfield to demonstrate that, if you want to make a weatherproof farm, you need to plant trees, you need to deal with soil compaction so that you don't have excessive run-off, and instead you have healthier soils that are absorbing much more of the inundations of water that we're getting increasingly. Also, we heard from two farmers who were making more money by having reduced the amount of stock they had on their farms, and therefore they had less cost from having to buy in fodder for their animals, relying more on the grass, which was of a better quality as a result of having to deal with less stock on it.

I just wonder how much conversation you're having with the farming unions to ensure that all farmers know that these are strategies we all have to do, because I'm absolutely happy with pausing to get it right, but the climate emergency will not wait. So, how is this preparatory phase to demonstrate the benefits of these universal actions going to deter people from unsustainable farming practices, like phosphate pollution from farming going into our rivers and seas? And how will it encourage farmers to tackle soil compaction and excessive run-off, and also, most seriously, soil loss? Because once it's gone, it's gone forever. We're told that there only are another 40 or 60 harvests in the soil, and therefore this is urgently needed to get change across the board.

Jenny, thank you so much for that question. Do you know, I, like you, am something of a fanatic about soil health, and the way that delivers multiple benefits? And we see it when it goes wrong as well, when you don't have soil, when you just have mud, and you have fields where the run-off is just taking that down into the streams below. Soil health, I can tell you, is part of the deliberations that go forward now in this preparatory phase.

I've come this morning from a visit to a farm not far from here—Sealands Farm, a family-run farm. Some of the work that they are doing that they're quite evangelical about as a family is the way that they're already working—in anticipation, in some ways, of where we should be heading—with multiple diverse crops and rotation, in order to deliver not only nitrogen and feeding the soil and enriching it, and so on and so forth, but doing it in a very scientific and intelligent way, and they've been doing it for some years. It's also bringing down their costs on the farm because what they're doing is using their own crops to feed. They're using it not quite in a closed-farm system, but reducing their reliance on bringing in very expensive outside alternatives and petrochemical-based alternatives, or overdosing their own farm. It's quite scientific, what they're doing. And what they said to me was that this is not unusual now in farming; there are more and more farms doing this.

So, what we need to do as part of the SFS and the wider approach to good sustainable farming in Wales is to make that approach much more normal, because we know that there are parts of Wales or individual farms where that isn't happening. So, how do we then lift them up and inform them, help them, mentor them, educate them, give them the correct advice, so that they can also do it as well?

Soil health is going to be critical to the way we go forward, and not least because of exactly what you've said: it also gives the resilience as well. So, rather than having mud that's being washed away, you have good soil that holds the water, holds the nutrients, and is less costly in the long run to maintain. But what farmers will say to me is they need the support to make that happen, not just in the advice, but actually in the way that we design the scheme as well. Soil health is key, often forgotten about by wider civil society out there, but critical in the way we take forward good farming in Wales.

Minister, thank you for your statement today. I don't think I picked it up earlier on, but does the Government still intend to pursue the data confirmation exercise this summer, and if so, can you confirm when that will begin?

On 10 per cent tree planting, I just want to make sure that I've got the answer that you gave correct in my own mind. I think the answer was that 10 per cent remains part of the proposed scheme, but there's a greater willingness to change and introduce more flexibility—so, have I got that right—through your ministerial round-table.

And in regards to TB, it's a devastating disease, it has a devastating impact on farming families and it's cruel in farming stock and also in wildlife as well. I note in your statement today that you mention again the eradication of TB in Wales by 2041. So, my question is: is that ambitious enough? Can there be a greater ambition in bringing forward that date? 

You also talk about your TB delivery plan and the technical advisory group. So, my final question there is: to what extent will the technical advisory group drive your decision making? Because, for me, many decisions are perhaps not for the advisory group; they're political decisions, such as the decision to cull affected wildlife, which I really do believe needs to be part of the overall package to eradicate TB. And that seems to be more of a political decision for you, rather than the technical advisory group, and that's why I ask about the extent of you taking your decision making from the advisory group.

Thank you very much, Russell. First of all, on the carbon sequestration and the 10 per cent trees, we've set up a panel deliberately to look at that. So, as opposed to ruling anything out, we want to consider those other options as part of that work that others have suggested might be good other ways of doing it. I think quite a lot of people here previously have been signatories to the hedges and edges campaign, and so on and so forth, but there are other options being put forward, including what we can do, actually, in well-managed soil and pastureland, which is quite interesting. So, I think these are the things that need to be explored in there. So, rather than focusing purely at the moment on 10 per cent trees, let's give that work stream the freedom to actually go and look at these, and bottom it out properly. Because some of them might be viable and others might not be, but let's properly bottom it out there.

On the data confirmation exercise, yes, this is key to it, going forward. One of the advantages we had, even though there were some concerns that the HWS may not have the uptake it did, actually, it's been really gratifying to see the response to the HWS, and it has helped, additionally, with some data coming forward. But we know that farmers are saying that some of that isn't accurate, so part of this process will actually be going back to farmers to say, 'Here's what we have, here's our mapping, now can you help us actually fill in the dots or contradict what is actually on that data there, that data there?' and so on. That's going to be integral to this, because if we can get to the point where we have good, accurate data, then we're in a much better position to help farmers and say to them, 'We don't have to do this again and again and again; we'll now know by the end of this preparatory phase.'

One the TB eradication by 2041, I think that is really ambitious. It's often said within this Chamber, 'Look at what's happened in England' and so on, but, actually, the trajectory, over the last 10 years, that we've looked at in Wales, and the decline in herd incidence, has been significant as well, so we're doing some things right here, and we often don't say that we're doing some things right. And some of that is based on this much greater partnership model of working, of giving the autonomy to the farmer, working with on-farm vets and so on, the sorts of things that we see now. Part of it is going to be driven, I have to say now, by, as you rightly say, the TB advisory group, headed by Glyn Hewinson, who chairs part of the Sêr Cymru programme, the TB centre of excellence in Aberystwyth. I've had some discussions with him already; I've made clear, when I've spoken before, saying it's for them now to lift up their advice, as they go forward, to the programme board on TB eradication. Sorry, I realise I haven't addressed the issue on could we be more ambitious. If I thought we could—. But I'm not sure that either side of the border or whatever—. It's quite an ambitious task. If we can eradicate by 2041, if we can do it early, brilliant, but let's see what the TB advisory group actually bring forward as the way forward.

The first thing that they've been looking at—and I'm waiting for the official advice to come up—is the on-farm slaughter, which has been a major issue for many farmers, not least the emotional issue and the impact of standing by as their cattle are slaughtered, with calves in, on the farm in front of them. I'm hoping to have that advice very soon. But where they go from there is where they go from there. They have the expertise, and there's really good—. I don't want to misuse this phrase now, but there's really good farming pedigree and long reach within the people on the TAG as well, but they lift it up, then, to the partnership board, where there is significant direct farming representatives, and ex officio members of the farming unions are on that as well. So, let's see what they bring forward. I'm not going to direct them or misdirect them or whatever. Let's see what they bring forward, but they've got a lot of work cut out in front of them.

I want to pursue two issues specifically, and one of them follows the question last week that the Cabinet Secretary asked me to ask again this week, so hopefully I'll have a bit more information on that, and that's with regard to BVD. There was good work being done with the BVD eradication plan previously, but unfortunately, momentum was lost on that, as the programme came to a close. Legislation is needed to ensure that testing happens, and that this funded in full. We expected an announcement before Easter, but we are still waiting. So, will the Cabinet Secretary set out the timescale for a Bil in this regard, and give an assurance that the Bill, in being adopted, will be supported with the funding needed to ensure its success?

And finally, to follow on from Russell George's question, farmers in my constituency have had to cull cattle as a result of TB over the past few weeks. It is a new experience for farmers in Meirionnydd. Those farmers are listening this afternoon to receive an assurance that you, as the new Cabinet Secretary, understand the seriousness of the situation that they are facing, and that you are ready to take action in accordance with the science. Are you ready to tackle this through culling badgers in a targeted way? Can you give us an assurance that you understand the challenge facing those farmers and that you will meet their needs? Thank you.

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Mabon. Can I turn, first of all, to the BVD issue? I can give you a further update to the question you raised the other day. First of all, we fully understand and appreciate the very serious impact of BVD, not just on standards of animal health and welfare, but also the impact of the disease on production and the serious economic costs as well to farm businesses. Eradicating BVD in Wales will bring significant benefits to cattle health and productivity, but also to cattle welfare, farm profitability, and also, by the way, carbon footprint. This summer, Welsh Government will make the BVD Wales Order; we'll bring that forward to facilitate an industry-led approach to eradicating the disease. I can bring more detail forward on that subsequently, Mabon, if that's of help, but we will actually bring that forward.

On BTB, I've met with so many farmers now who have been confronted with the emotional turmoil—that's to understate it—of having to go through not just the regularity of TB testing and so on, but also the slaughter, including the on-farm slaughter of cattle. We have to find a way through this. But the programme for government commitment is very clear: it's actually working on the sorts of things that we've done within the Pembrokeshire pathway, working in partnership, using the very best science et cetera; it is exploring the use, as we have done, indeed, of things such as badger vaccination and also supporting the moves to bring forward, ultimately, if we can do it, with the right test to identify that it works, cattle vaccination as well, inevitably. That has to be part of the overall 2041 approach there.

But can I just reiterate what I said to Russell? Our programme for government commitment is very, very clear, but we've set up the TAG with Glyn Hewinson for a very good reason, because it has expertise on there that can bring forward their ideas on where we go next in Wales. I simply want to reiterate one thing here, because people will often raise eyebrows when I say, 'Well, we are doing some good stuff in Wales', and I would say to Members, please contact me and I'll direct you to some of the stuff that we do on the ground, where farmers who are involved in some of these projects are really persuaded that some of the groundbreaking stuff we're doing in Wales is the right one. But, just to be clear, from 2012, which is the year before badger control policy in England, to 2023, on the latest published data, the herd incidence in England decreased from 9.8 to 7.3; it was a 26 per cent decrease.

In Wales, over the same period, herd incidence decreased from 10 to 6.8. It's a 31.3 per cent decrease. I simply put that on record—those are Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs figures, by the way—to say that we are doing things differently in Wales, in line with our programme for government, but we're also succeeding in many ways. The advisory group needs to say, 'Well, where do we go next then?', 'Where is the next way forward?', and that's the right way to do it, I think: to say to them, 'Work with the farming community. Work with the veterinary service and with others. Work with that wide experience you have to lift up ideas on where we go next.'

I also echo the welcome by others in the room to the reset, as I see it, of the sustainable farming scheme. Really, this is about working in partnership with our farming communities and our rural communities as well. The planned 2025 preparatory period in particular will be crucial for that really robust dialogue with farmers and other stakeholders. 

I just have three questions, if that's all right. The first is around the 17 universal actions. You've explained a little bit about the fact that they will be part of a stakeholder group, a working group, but can you just confirm, in your view, will the 17 universal actions still apply to every single farm? Because that is one of the key issues.

In regard to the 10 per cent tree cover, you've talked about it potentially including hedgerows et cetera, and that it has to be evidence based, but in that evidence, will you be listening to farmers as well, many of whom have got a surfeit of evidence and information—farmers like Gary Jones in Llangadog in Carmarthenshire, who has really robust evidence?

And my third question, which is a really general one, is can you tell us what 'good' looks like at the end of 2025 to tell you that it proceeds in full to 2026. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

That's a great final question there, Jane. Thank you. I like your terminology there on a 'reset'. There's an enormous amount of work been done on this already—seven years of discussions, consultations, roadshows, whatever. We've got to a place where we do have a lot of agreement—I keep saying this; we genuinely do—on the broad framework, the high-level objectives, and many details of the scheme as well. So, 'reset' is quite a nice way of putting it. I think that analogy of saying, 'Let's just take a little bit more time to get all the details right' links me to what 'good' looks like at the very end.

Let me just touch on the 17 universal actions. One of the things that was clear from what I've read already, the read-out I've had so far—not the full read-out, but the read-out I've had from the consultation—was that many farmers saw complexity within the 17 actions. They worried about would this mean more bureaucracy. Some of them weren't understandable to the farmers either. They went, 'What does this mean?' I think we've got a job, the ministerial group here that this will be lifted up to, to look at those and to see, of those, are they all the right ones, but also are they ones that need better explaining, are they ones that we need to work with farmers to say, 'Well, how do we explain this better? What is this all about?' and so on. So, I'm not saying we're taking any of this out, but I think there's a job of work to actually look at them individually and go through and say, 'Well, if this is going to be something that you take away, outside of a consultation, and say, "Here's a toolkit for farmers", then how do you better present that so it doesn’t look so complex and bureaucratic and so on?'

On the tree cover, will we listen to farmers? Yes, absolutely. And that's why we have set up this carbon sequestration group. But we will also listen, by the way, to those ideas that are coming as well from wildlife and environmental groups on other ways. It's not just coming from one direction. There's been some interesting conversations I've had over the last month and previously on other ways we can take forward carbon sequestration on land throughout Wales, which include trees, but could actually go in other areas as well. But, again, I come back the point that we have to bottom this out with evidence. It can't be just good ideas and aspirations. We have to know that these are going to be effective as well. 

On what 'good' looks like when we get to the end of the preparatory phase, what 'good' looks like will be that, as a result of the process we've gone through, there is good agreement and a coalition of the willing to go forward with this. That's one aspect of what 'good' looks like. And the second aspect of what 'good' looks like is it achieves all those objectives that we're trying to do, so we come out the other end with a scheme that, yes, is good for those higher standards of food production, animal welfare, soil, water quality, and all those wider public benefits, including tackling climate change and promoting biodiversity as well. That's what 'good' looks like, but it has to be as well something that we've designed together and that there is a willingness from people to take forward together as well.

That doesn't mean that 'good' looks like everybody being in total agreement on every single issue. That is not going to happen, I can guarantee you now. But if we're all standing at the end of this process and saying, 'We've got broad agreement. We think this is going to be not just good, but it's going to be good for Wales'—. Because other people have said to me, 'Why don't we look at other schemes elsewhere?' One of the things that the farming unions and others have said is that, actually, what we need is something that is bespoke to Wales, the type of farming we have, the type of landscape we have, the type of environment we have. That's what 'good' will look like.  

We're way over time on this statement and the time the Government has allocated for it, so if we can have concise questions, and also concise answers.

I very much welcome your appointment, Minister. I very much welcome the way in which you've hit the ground running. The announcement that you made today, I think, demonstrates a real willingness to move forward, but to do so in conversation with people affected. I actually fear that you're going to spend most of the next few years protecting Welsh agriculture from the impact of Brexit. We've seen that the UK Government has sold Welsh farmers down the road with their trade deals. We also see the way that bureaucracy and barriers are being placed to trade for Welsh agriculture. So, I hope that, in the work that you take forward, Minister, you will ensure that protection of Welsh farmers from the impact of Brexit is at the heart of that. But I also hope, Minister, that you won't lose momentum through the next period, because you've demonstrated a willingness to listen, to talk, to discuss, to debate, to have the conversation across the whole of Wales about what our ambitions and our visions are for agriculture. But we need momentum to deliver that. We need to set those targets, to set those objectives, and then move forward together to deliver that. And the momentum you've created in the last few weeks is going to be essential to drive that policy forward through the next few years.

Alun, thank you very much. I will take that compliment, and particularly from a former agricultural Minister himself, and the time I genuinely enjoyed working with you when I was UK environment Minister and we sat across the table in Brussels and so on—sometimes we're in danger of harking back to those days a bit too much. I can hear the grumbling going on already so I won't.

Your point on lots of momentum is absolutely key. Look, I've only been in post, I think, for four weeks now, or whatever, but I said from the word go that we would listen, we would engage, and then we would get on with it. So, don't let anybody be under any mistake that this, as has sometimes been referred to today mistakenly, is a pause, a delay or whatever. It ain't. It's a part of the process going forward, with farmers, with the wildlife and environmental organisations, with Welsh wider society, with rural groups and organisations who are so concerned about getting this right. There is no loss of momentum. We've set out a timescale that we need to go forward, but the direction of travel is very, very clear, and we will get on with this and we will do it together, Alun. Diolch yn fawr.

Thank you very much, Cabinet Secretary, for your statement. Can I first start by thanking NFU Cymru, Farmers Union of Wales, the Tenant Farmers Association, common land associations, the Nature Friendly Farming Network, CLA Cymru, the organisers of the Welshpool mart protest and the mart protest in Carmarthen, and the organisers of the protest that took place on the steps of the Senedd? For three years, I've been plugging away with your predecessor, trying to get changes to the sustainable farming scheme, and it is only when the sector woke up and acknowledged that these big changes were coming, and saw the reality of what was being asked of them by the roadshows that were being held, that Welsh Government finally took notice and has brought forward a delay, which I believe is an acknowledgement that, up until this point, Welsh Government has been missing the mark when it's been coming to this sustainable farming scheme policy.

But one thing that I want to touch on, just briefly, in terms of the Habitat Wales scheme is the roll-out of that, riddled with errors, as you mentioned, where farmers weren't able to upload habitat data of their own farm to the system, which sometimes had been undertaken by Farming Connect. That's a breakdown in the data element of farming policy, which needs to be rectified. I've written to you previously about land mapping as well, and the apps available on that. And also around greenwashing and afforestation, of outside agencies buying up Welsh agricultural land, to totally afforest an area for greenwashing, and offsetting their conscience by not changing their business model but planting trees across a large swathe of agricultural land. I think that needs to be addressed, because there are specific cases in my constituency, around Llanboidy, and other areas as well. How can that be addressed through the sustainable farming scheme?

Thank you, Sam. Listen, I'd echo the thanks to all those organisations who made submissions to the consultation but who also engaged, including in the run-up to the protest. And I've said previously, I think, in terms of Senedd Cymru, Welsh Parliament, people actually protesting outside we should welcome. It's part of the political engagement. We really should. And then we should listen to what's being said. It's not that we take everything on face value, but we should listen and engage. That's part of being a proper, mature Parliament.

In terms of the consultation, can I just put on record my thanks to Lesley Griffiths and her officials for all the work that they've done? They've taken some brickbats, particularly when the protests were going on and so on, but there was a genuine, meaningful approach to engage. It was a genuine consultation as well. I think that's reflected in my ability to come in now, at this timely juncture, and just reflect on it and think, 'Right, well, how do we take it forward?' It was a genuine consultation. But the points you make on HWS and the data and the mapping are well made. We do need to get this right going forward, and that will be of help not only to the sustainable farming scheme itself, but actually to wider land management in Wales going forward for many years to come. We haven't got it right. The HWS, curiously, as I mentioned earlier on—the take-up has been greater than expected, which is really good. But what it means now is that we can use some of the things that have come forward to go back to farmers and say, 'Right, what's wrong here?', as well as the other mapping that we have. So, there's work to be done on that.

And finally, your point on greenwashing—you are so right. One of the areas that we are interested in, beyond SFS, is whether we can look at a real scheme with integrity, with real ethical integrity within it, that could lever funds that are beyond the taxpayer funds into enabling farmers to do more, and it could be within biodiversity schemes, landscape management schemes, it could be within tree planting, but not on productive land, yes, but, of course, farmers make commercial decisions as well, they do. But we’ve got to make sure that what is being done in Wales is to the benefit of those land managers, landowners and local communities in Wales. That’s it. So, we need to think collectively about how we can bring forward something that does that, because there is scope. We’re talking about a scheme that is predicated upon, if you like, public funds going into developing the support and the sort of farming we want to see in future, and the sort of food production and the wider benefits. Beyond that, there could well be a quantum of funding out there that if we design something correctly, that could be quite interesting, and there could be more that we could do. There could be more we can do in biodiversity and environmental gain et cetera, et cetera, but getting that right, not having greenwashing, not selling it to outside bodies. So, there's a piece of work to be done.

Thank you for statement today, Cabinet Secretary. Back in early March, I addressed a packed-out meeting of local farmers in Penderyn who wanted to share with me their hopes and their fears regarding the proposed sustainable farming scheme. The overall message from them was that Welsh Government needed to pause and reflect in order to get this new scheme right for farmers and right for Wales. I’ve already been in touch with some of them this morning and they all very much welcomed the news that you are indeed pausing and reflecting on this crucial scheme.

So, I have two questions for you today. Firstly, how are you ensuring that your ministerial round-table captures views from the diverse strands of our farming communities? I’m thinking, for example, of common land farmers, tenant farmers and non-unionised farmers too. And, secondly, I note your reference to developing proposals for further optional and collaborative actions. Now, farmers that I’ve talked to would really welcome this. And as part of this work, Cabinet Secretary, would you consider some of the approaches used under previous schemes such as Tir Gofal and Glastir, which many farmers believe worked well for them?

Thank you, Vikki, and thank you for those suggestions as well. We will certainly consider, going forward, how we get that balance right with the optional collaborative, and where we can learn from previous schemes. And we will certainly make sure that in the membership of the ministerial round-table, going forward, that the interests of those who are tenant farmers but also those who farm common land—sometimes there’s an overlap with those two as well there, in your own constituency, similar to mine. We’ll make sure that there is representation on that as well. We do need to make sure that the membership of that is fully reflective of the farming community and its diversity, but also of those wildlife and environmental groups as well, because I think key to holding this together is getting everybody in the same room and saying, ‘Let’s get to see where we agree and let’s see where we need to do further work', and that’s what this is all about today.

Finally, Laura Anne Jones.

Diolch. Thank you for your statement, Cabinet Secretary. It certainly is encouraging, and I want to believe what you say, and I really hope that I can when more detail comes forward in future months. You’ve released this today on World Farmers Day, so I just want to reiterate the importance of the farmers, and that it takes enormous dedication, passion and hard work to be a farmer. Not only that you have to be master of all trades, not just one, being a farmer is something that’s often underestimated, unless you see it first-hand like I did, growing up and having a father that I hardly saw unless I spent time on the farm myself.

But they are masters; I didn’t appreciate until I was older the variety of skills that they have, and those include, of course, getting the best out of the land, preserving hedgerows, planting trees. And it’s nothing new. Farmers have the knowledge, the expertise, and they now have to be an integral part of getting this SFS right. And I want to seek assurances from you today, Minister, that you will involve farmers and that there will be a degree of common sense now, and reality attached and decisions being made, and that when it comes to cross-border issues, you will work with the UK Government to iron those out, and that if we look towards the longer term goal, which is a fantastic goal of improving soil health, then those farmers will be subsidised if they are going to lose money from having fewer crops or something to do so, which can happen.

So, I just want to reiterate the importance of getting this SFS right for the whole of the agricultural community; economically, socially, environmentally it’s so important. And I thank you, and I welcome your statement today. We have great hopes for you, Minister. Please don’t let us down. [Laughter.]

Okay, no pressure. [Laughter.] Look, I can give you that genuine assurance that the work in some ways only starts today, because, now, this is really the business end of delivering an SFS that is not only coherent and comprehensive, and sets an approach now for a generation, going forward, but also brings everybody with us. There's a job of work to be done with that.

It's interesting that the First Minister has now joined us, and you've touched on your knowledge and background within farming. The First Minister himself also has referred to his background as well. I've got family within farming on my wife's side as well, and very different types of farming, both in Italy and in Wales, and dairy production. My own constituency, similar to Vikki—we often say, Vikki and I, we evangelise about the fact that when you look up to the hills, round about four tenths of our constituencies are upland hill farming, much of it common land, some of it tenanted, but multigenerational farmers as well. Coming off Sealands farm this morning, seeing the work they're doing, which almost looks to the future—they're actually quite well ahead in many areas—you think of all the good work that is going on and we need to make that, then, commonplace through the way that we design this scheme.

Just finally, on your matter on cross-border issues, I genuinely do—you wouldn't be surprised for me to say this as a former UK parliamentarian. I want to make sure that we do work well across borders on farming, but also on a range of issues as well. But I want that to be reciprocal, whether that is to do with actually having our input from other Cabinet Secretaries on trade deals and the implications for our farmers, financial settlements around the quantum of funds we will get going into farming and other matters as well, and also how we can share practice. I think all of those argue for a good, pragmatic, grown-up approach to actually working across, with other devolved nations as well as with the UK Government. Thank you very much.

I thank the Cabinet Secretary.

Item 5 is next, the statement by the Minister for Mental Health and Early Years on improving mental health in Wales. The Minister, Jayne Bryant.

Diolch, Llywydd. I’m really pleased that my first ministerial statement is about improving mental health in Wales as we mark Mental Health Awareness Week. The theme for this year’s event is ‘Movement: moving more for our mental health’. This week highlights the connection between the positive benefits physical activity can have on our mental health. Too often, we only talk about the impact it can have on our physical health, but we know that being active, moving, in whatever way we're able to, is really important to support our mental health and well-being.

When we talk about physical activity, many of us will conjure up images of lifting weights in gyms, running marathons or organised team sports. But while it can be all of those things, physical activity is also about working with your own body to incorporate movement into our daily routines. The Chief Medical Officer for Wales recommends that working-age adults do around 150 minutes of moderate, or 75 minutes of vigorous, exercise a week. There are different recommendations for other age groups and for disabled people. But the message is clear: whatever you are able to do, benefits are achieved at levels below or above those guidelines. Doing something every day has a positive impact on our physical and mental health. It could be about taking the stairs instead of the lift, doing the parkrun, going for a walk in your local community or doing some yoga. 

Our 'Healthy Weight: Healthy Wales' strategy acknowledges this link between physical movement and mental well-being and supports it through a range of interventions. Our 60-plus active leisure scheme, supported by £500,000 of Welsh Government funding, helps to increase physical activity levels, confidence, strength and balance, as well as providing opportunities to increase interactions and reduce social isolation, which we know is a risk factor for poorer mental health and well-being.

We have also invested in supporting the Football Association of Wales and the English Football League Trust in rolling out the Fit Fans programme to football clubs across Wales. With programmes up and running in Cardiff, Swansea, Newport and Wrexham, and projects in Aberystwyth and Newtown in the pipeline, early assessments show positive results. The schemes are not just supporting increased physical activity and weight loss, but also improvements in mental well-being. I look forward to receiving the fuller evaluation in due course.

We're currently consulting on our new mental health and well-being strategy, which sets out our vision for the next 10 years. Now, I want to pay tribute to the huge amount of work my predecessor, Lynne Neagle, has done in this portfolio, particularly in developing the new mental health and suicide prevention strategies and rolling out the '111 press 2' service. The new mental health strategy has a real focus on prevention, to protect and improve our mental health and well-being. This includes by being more physically active. It also highlights the interconnection between the range of things that we can do to protect our mental health. For instance, joining a local walking group to be more active also helps us feel part of a community, to connect with people and engage with nature. Such interconnectedness demonstrates that improving mental health must be a cross-Government approach to ensure that people have the knowledge, understanding and opportunity to empower them to take action. I am committed to continuing to drive this approach across Welsh Government

Another priority for me is to change how we talk about and understand our mental health. Mental health has become a term that is used to describe a wide range of issues and circumstances and is often linked to NHS services, but many people don’t need specialist mental health support, and there is a range of easy-to-access services where you can get additional support, without the need for a referral from a healthcare professional. Every health board website has links to resources that can provide help and support. 

Mental Health Awareness Week is a good opportunity for us to reflect on what we can do change the narrative around mental health. I am, of course, committed to ensuring that mental health services are accessible to all those who need this support and to reducing waiting times. I think it’s vital that we take a preventative approach and we work across services to support the wide range of issues that can impact our mental health and well-being. We all have a role to play in improving mental health and well-being. Moving more this Mental Health Awareness Week and encouraging others to do the same is a good place to start. Diolch.

Thank you very much for your statement this afternoon, Minister. I welcome you to your new role. I hope that you're getting to grips with the portfolio, because, certainly from the shadow side of things, it's been quite a challenge taking on some new responsibilities. I'd just like to thank my predecessor as well, James Evans, for the commitment and passion that he shared on this subject and I hope I can do it some justice from my end of the bargain as well. But thanks again for your statement this afternoon.

We're speaking on this issue during Mental Health Awareness Week, so it's important that, whilst addressing the challenges in mental health treatment in Wales, we also recognise our responsibility to raise awareness, remove the social stigma regarding poor mental health and recognise that it touches everyone's life, in one way or another, with one in four of us experiencing a mental health problem every year.

There are logistical challenges that I would like to address, but also areas that mental health strategies can better address. On the logistical challenges, waiting times for children's mental health support are disgraceful. A freedom of information request that we submitted revealed that children in Wales are waiting almost two years for mental health treatment; a wait of this time means that the problems that these children are presenting with will significantly become more complex and difficult to address if not dealt with in a timely fashion. In the Cardiff and Vale University Health Board, someone waited a year and two months to be seen for the first time and, in Swansea Bay University Health Board, someone waited 59 weeks for their first appointment. We shouldn't be shy about the fact that this can sometimes be the difference between life and death, and some of these young people are very vulnerable. Mind Cymru have also described these figures as very concerning. Although, overall, those on a patient pathway waiting longer than four weeks for their first child and adolescent mental health services appointment has been reducing, which is welcome news, the shocking outlier cases are a concern. And not just the outliers, but follow-up appointments are a critical issue to be addressed.

There also should be some recognition of certain groups in society that are more prone to mental health challenges than others, such as those from ethnic minority communities, the elderly, the young, LGBTQ+, neurodivergent and those living in poverty. Men are also disproportionately affected by suicide, with three quarters, or 75 per cent, of all suicides being men.

The unique mental health difficulties that many farmers and members of rural communities have been raised in the Senedd before by my colleague James Evans and other Members also. So, there is no one-size-fits-all strategy. Care must sometimes be tailored to the needs of certain demographics, and this is something that the mental health strategy currently fails to do.

Child mental health services need the most attention, not just with the disgraceful waiting times that I have laid out, but also the Welsh Government's strategy. There has been a failure to address the so-called missing middle, with a huge gulf of children in this category who do not meet the threshold for medical diagnosis or a CAMHS referral, but for whom social prescribing or community therapy is a more appropriate remedy. Many mental health experts have also highlighted that, when the appropriate treatment for children in the missing middle is provided, it will often prevent these children from developing from more complex issues and becoming a CAMHS case. Also, many experts draw attention to how children's mental health treatment will be cut off at the age of 18, with resources suddenly withdrawn without consideration of the fact that they are still a vulnerable young person with a developing brain, and in need of continued support.

There are also gross failings in the Swansea Bay University Health Board, which apologised after a patient absconded from a secure unit and went on to fatally attack their father in the family home—negligence with devastating consequences. Healthcare Inspectorate Wales has consistently found and said that care and treatment plans, or CTPs, are of poor quality, are not being co-produced, and are not being completed in accordance with primary legislation.

The proposed new mental health strategy does not do enough to identify or detail what actions need to be taken, and we need to see some new ideas from the Welsh Government. We hear today what they are going to do to improve waiting times for children's mental health treatment, but we need to hear how the Welsh Government plans to address the missing middle—a large number of children who have, sadly, slipped through the net.

We would like to see an independent review into all the tragic deaths of mental health patients, and to see the Minister address the recommendations of the Healthcare Inspectorate Wales report. In light of the current challenges that the Welsh Government is facing with all of these issues, I think that it would be appropriate to hear some contrition for the 8.8 per cent cut to the Welsh Government's mental health budget, which was a terrible decision at the worst possible time. I look forward to hearing your response. Thank you very much.

Diolch yn fawr, Gareth. Thank you very much for your kind words at the start, and I welcome you to your post as well. So, we've both come to this portfolio, and I'm sure that we'll work together on lots of issues that I am sure that we can get behind. I'm really looking forward to working with you on that, so welcome to this. I understand that you've got a lot to get to grips with, just like me, on this, so thank you for your kind words. I, too, would like to pay tribute to your predecessor as well, James Evans, who I know campaigns strongly on this issue and worked really hard on that portfolio as well, and I'm sure that you'll do that justice as well. So, thank you for mentioning James, as it gives me an opportunity to say that.

You've given me lots of points to answer on that first question, and I'm sure that we'll come on to those. The first point that you made was around young people. I think that it's really important that we—. And I, again, mention Lynne Neagle and all the work that she's done in this area in the past and I know she'll continue to do in her role as Cabinet Secretary. But I just want to reiterate that protecting young people's mental health is an absolute priority for us as a Government. We must not lose sight of that.

You certainly mentioned a few points on mental health waiting times. Most young people referred to mental health services will be seen within four weeks, and all health boards have plans in place to reduce waiting times. We continue to invest in a range of support to reduce the need for more specialist services, like online access to mental health and support in schools. There's a lot to do, and I can assure you that I'll be keeping my eye on that as well, and I look forward to working with you on that, as with others. 

You also mentioned some points around the draft strategy. It gives me an opportunity to mention the draft strategy that's out for consultation at the moment. The consultation closes on 11 June. I hope that you can encourage as many people as possible to contribute to that strategy, because it's important that we do everything we can to move forward in that space. So, again, a reminder that it's 11 June that that consultation closes, and it's our draft mental health and well-being strategy. There's also a new draft suicide and self-harm prevention strategy, which is also out for consultation at the same time. Our policy aim of early intervention and prevention is really to help upstream, to prevent those with a mental health related need requiring specialist case, whilst, at the same time, improving access to specialist care when that is clinically needed. We've included a focus on the particular needs of those with a severe and enduring mental health illness within the draft mental health and well-being strategy as well. But this is a really important area that we need to get right.

You also mentioned particular groups, and I just wanted to say a bit about farming, which you touched on. We've just heard from the Cabinet Secretary as well. One of the events that I was fortunate to go to myself a few weeks ago was an event hosted here in the Senedd, and there a really interesting presentation by a group in Powys, Mamwlad, and it was really good to hear about the work they've been doing, trying to work with farmers and the farming community in that area. It's a project in collaboration between Care and Repair in Powys and Age Cymru Powys, and I'd really encourage you to take a look at that as well. I think it's really important to pick out those areas where there's some really good work, and I'm sure I'll learn more about those positive benefits. I've also spoken to farmers in my own community, in my personal capacity as a Senedd Member, in an area where you don't—it's an urban area—often think of many farmers in particular, and some of the isolation that they might feel. So, it is really important that we remember those groups, and it's important that we do all we can to raise awareness within the farming industry of the importance of looking after mental and physical health.

Thank you to the Minister for her statement this afternoon. I'd like to start by congratulating her on her appointment to this role, and I look forward to working with her on an issue of such great importance.

Before going after specific policy areas or issues, it's worth highlighting one issue that should underpin all others when dealing with broader mental health issues: all new strategies and policy initiatives need to be underpinned by a robust mental health data set. Mind Cymru has recommended developing an effective and transparent set of national indicators, both output and outcome, on mental health, to guide investment and prioritisation. This is also the case for ensuring greater transparency around how the investment made by the Welsh Government, or health boards and other public sector organisations, is making the biggest possible impact. So, can the Minister explain what actions she will be taking to ensure improved data sets and data gathering?

Every time we've had a statement or a debate in this Siambr on mental health, I've made a point of urging the Government to concentrate on perinatal mental health. I therefore welcome the fact that the Minister is Minister for Mental Health and Early Years, and how the First Minister put great emphasis on the importance of the first 1,000 days of a child's life during his leadership campaign. But this is where that rhetoric is now tested. That first 1,000 days of a baby's life starts with having a healthy mother and, sadly, far too often, new mothers are left to look after themselves and suffer in silence. New and expectant parents are disproportionately at risk of experiencing poor mental health, with up to one in five mums affected in the UK, and one in 10 dads also experience mental health problems during the perinatal period. If left untreated, perinatal mental health problems can have a devastating impact on the mental and physical health of mums, partners and babies. While there has been positive progress in establishing specialist perinatal mental health services in Wales, worrying gaps remain, and none of the seven perinatal mental health services in Wales currently meet the 100 per cent of type 1 national College Centre for Quality Improvement standards. The latest MBRRACE-UK report on the confidential inquiry into maternal deaths in the UK and Ireland has shown that 40 per cent of maternal deaths in the first postnatal year are due to mental ill health, and that suicide remains the leading cause of direct maternal death in the first postnatal year. So, how will a new mental health strategy for Wales deal in particular with the issue of perinatal mental health?

Looking next at rural communities, which you touched on earlier, I might also suggest the need for a particular and tailored approach to tackling poor mental health in our rural communities. A 2023 survey by the Farm Safety Foundation found that 94 per cent of farmers under 40 believe that serious mental health problems are the main challenges facing the sector. According to the Farmers Union of Wales, paperwork and animal health were key causes of stress for farmers. So, will a new mental health strategy seek to deal with the causes and consequences of poor mental health in rural areas, and how will the Minister work with the Cabinet Secretary for Climate Change and Rural Affairs, and indeed other members of the Cabinet, to deliver this?

The Minister referred to the 60-plus active leisure scheme, and how proud the Government is of the scheme. Can she confirm that the budget for this scheme hasn’t changed over the last year, and that that budget will be maintained moving forward?

Finally, to touch on the majority of the statement made today, I note that the statement puts great responsibility on individuals to look after their health by taking physical exercise. This follows the Cabinet Secretary’s regular statements calling on people to take personal responsibility. However, we know that people’s mental health is linked to their childhood experiences and their economic circumstances, such as poverty and deprivation, so does the Minister not agree that this Government should do more to tackle poverty, domestic violence and other key factors that would help in our ambition to improve people’s mental health, instead of putting blame on individuals? Thank you.

Diolch, Mabon, and thank you very much as well. I’m really looking forward to working with you in this brief, so thank you for your welcome as well. Diolch yn fawr.

On your points around data and the mental health programme, we have provided £2.2 million to establish a strategic mental health programme within the NHS Wales Executive, which will drive improvements in the quality, safety and performance of services, and reduce variation in services. Within the strategy, we’re clear that to deliver both effective and person-centred services, we need to drive improvements within our care and treatment planning, and this will be a key focus of the strategic programme for mental health.

You mentioned the first 1,000 days and the importance of that, and thank you for raising that and also the important issue around perinatal mental health. I know that you have a keen interest in that, and I appreciate you acknowledging the work that’s gone ahead on specialist perinatal mental health and the progress that’s been made on that. We remain committed to improving perinatal mental health services. This is a priority area for action within the refreshed 'Together for Mental Health' delivery plan. Since 2015, we’ve invested in specialist perinatal mental health. There are now services in every health board area and over £3 million of mental health service improvement funding is supporting these services annually. Health boards are also working towards meeting the relevant Royal College of Psychiatrists' quality standards, and we have made service improvement funding available in order to support that. The national clinical lead for perinatal mental health is leading the national network’s work programme. This includes the development of a fully integrated care pathway and supporting health boards to work towards meeting the Royal College of Psychiatrists' quality standards. So, there is work going on in that area and we will continue to do that.

On the point you made around the 60-plus active leisure scheme, promoting physical activity amongst older people is facilitated through that scheme. Our 'Healthy Weight: Healthy Wales' delivery plan commits to the scheme via an investment of £500,000 per annum, and we also provide that transformation programme funding of over £500,000 across 2022-23, 2023-24 to the Football Association of Wales for the Fit Fans programme, which I have already mentioned. So, there is a lot of work going on in this area, but we will continue to progress that.

Thank you, Minister, for your statement and I'm delighted to welcome you to your role. I'd like to begin with social prescribing, which I feel has a really important role to play in improving mental health, and one that especially fits with this year's theme of movement in mind. I've seen the benefits of this time and again through the excellent work of Cynon Valley Organic Adventures in Abercynon, and I know that Jan and her team would be delighted to welcome you, Minister, if you ever wanted to visit. So, for my first question I'd like to ask: in the context of the national framework for social prescribing, how is Welsh Government working not only to increase opportunities for social prescribing, but also awareness of the benefits of social prescribing too? 

Secondly, I was privileged to join New Horizons Mental Health in Aberdare this morning for their event to mark Mental Health Awareness Week. It was a celebration of the importance of positive mental health, but also a recognition of the important role that charities and other grass-roots organisations play in supporting people in the community. So, how can Welsh Government best support and engage with local groups such as those, so that they can help the people living around them in turn? Thank you.

Thank you for that question, Vikki, and I appreciate your kind comments at the start. Diolch yn fawr. You're absolutely right: social prescribing is really important. It's woven into the fabric of what Welsh Government does in terms of empowering people and communities. It really is key. I'm very happy to visit any place that you think would be really helpful for me to learn from and to see, so I look forward to doing that with you.

We're clear within this strategy on the absolutely vital role that the third sector will play in its implementation. We've developed the strategy with the understanding that there will be a need to be aware of setting priorities, ensuring the best use of existing resources and an opportunity to be clear about what we can realistically deliver. And we can only do that by working together, and working together with the third sector. So, they're an important partner and I hope that you will encourage them to take part in the consultation that is out, which closes on 11 June, because it is really important that we get as many voices through that consultation as possible. Diolch yn fawr. 

Minister, I'd also like to welcome you to your place and out of all the ministerial appointments, this was the one that I was actually quite looking forward to with all the work that you and I did together on the Children, Young People and Education Committee. I know of your commitment to improving the mental health of young people across Wales. I also look forward to working with you on the development of my mental health standards of care (Wales) Bill, which I'm looking forward to having positive, proactive engagement with the Welsh Government on, and I look forward to following that work with you. 

My question, Minister, is around waiting lists. We are seeing the amount of people waiting for a first appointment for the child and adolescent mental health service going up—I think Cwm Taf Morgannwg is the worst health board across Wales—but it does beg the question: how long are young people in Wales waiting for their follow-up appointment? And I think that's something that the Welsh Government currently doesn't hold in data terms, and I think that's something that the Welsh Government should look at, because, yes, we can get them their first appointment, but if they don't get the follow-up appointment they're actually still going to be in the situation that they come into the system in. So, I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on that and whether that's something that you'd be keen to look at the new Minister for mental health.   

Diolch yn fawr, James, and thank you very much, and I know this is an area, as I said, that you're very interested in and you've worked on over the last few years, in particular. I look forward to working with you on the work that you're doing on the Bill. We look forward to seeing some more detail around the proposals, and I know that you have invited me to a round-table. So, I look forward to attending that round-table in due course.

Absolutely, I've heard your comments previously on CAMHS and your concerns around that second appointment, the follow-up appointment. We're providing £13.6 million this year to support schools to implement the whole-school approach to mental health and well-being. This will enable schools to expand and improve school counselling, deliver universal and targeted well-being interventions, and train school staff on well-being. It also will enable continued support to health boards, to provide CAMHS school in-reach across Wales, with dedicated mental health practitioners available in schools, providing consultation, liaison, advice and training. So, you know, there are things that we're looking at, and I look forward to continuing to work with you on this.

May I ask, Minister, what impact do you believe the cuts have had on what you can provide? You mention the importance of the third sector, but the third sector is on its knees and many of these services can't be sustained, despite playing a crucial role in improving mental health. Also, we've been briefed by ColegauCymru and Sport Wales about the crucial funding that it receives, but as you know, the increase in the number of young people that need support has been huge, and there is uncertainty in terms of the continuation of that funding. [Translation should read: 'I've been briefed by CollegesWales Sport about the crucial funding that the sector receives currently, but as you know, the increase in the number of young people that need support has been huge, and there is uncertainty in terms of the continuation of that funding.']

Also in terms of the 60-plus programme, I think you said in your response to Mabon ap Gwynfor that it was £0.5 million that's available—a cut to the £1 million that was previously available. I know, in my own region, that some of those activities have had to cease. So, what I'd like to know is—. Now, in terms of some of the things that you've named, I know that some of these have already been cut, so how can we sustain the level of support and increase it?

And specifically, Dirprwy Lywydd, if I may just ask: when will the Welsh Government respond to the Youth Parliament and what they put forward in 'Young Minds Matter'? It's two years later and there's been no formal response; it's crucial that that is provided. When will they get that formal response?

Diolch yn fawr, Heledd, and thank you very much for your questions. Obviously, we're in very difficult financial times, and the severe budgetary constraints that the Welsh Government is facing are very real, and I know that that pressure then is put on other organisations, and you mentioned the importance of the third sector, as I have mentioned. You know, we've seen the stress on that particular sector. We are aware of that and I realise that is a very real issue.

Due to the budgetary pressures, we've reduced centrally held funds by around £6 million, alongside not retaining the planned £15 million due to be included in centrally held funds for mental health, to ensure that most funding reaches those front-line services. Whilst the financial position remains challenging, we do remain committed to supporting the most vulnerable. We have invested significantly in open-access support at a national level. This provides easy access to mental health support for all, without the need for a referral from a health professional. The aim is to reduce the pressure on more specialist mental health services.

And your point around Sport Wales funding and the issue around that, I will be working with other Cabinet colleagues around these sorts of issues, because it is important it's across Government as well. So, I can assure you that I'll work with Cabinet colleagues on some of those points that you've raised.

The point around the Welsh Youth Parliament, in my previous role, I attended both of those sessions here in the Siambr, with the Youth Parliament, and I heard the voices very loudly, and they've been consistent over a number of years on the issues that they've raised. I'm new into this post in terms of where we are with that, so I will look into that and respond as well.

Finally, Laura Anne Jones.

Thank you. Minister, I too want to welcome you to your portfolio, and I'll watch with interest what you do with it, considering the knowledge that you have. As a fantastic former chairman of the children and young people's committee, you'll know that we've been told that there is money, apparently, to tackle mental health in schools, but schools I've visited across Wales haven't seen this money. Not only that, there has been no national approach to helping our children and young people, whilst there's been a massive rise in health problems. No national strategy, no guidance, every school has a different approach—some good, some concerningly poor. One school in my own region, in the city that we both represent, have enlisted the help of a third-party organisation, Mind Cymru, originally to be there for one day a week. But due to the high demand in that school—and many schools would chomp at the bit for this—they've increased that provision to five days a week.

Minister, when are we going to see some help, some guidance and a consistent approach across Wales to tackling mental health challenges in our schools, and what are your thoughts on using third-party organisations? Will you take firm action to share the best practice that is happening across Wales, and how will you work with the Cabinet Secretary for Education to achieve this? Diolch.

Thank you very much, Laura. I really appreciate your warm words of welcome, and I look forward to working with you in an area that I know you feel very passionately about. As I said, protecting young people's mental health is a priority for us, it continues to be a priority for us. We are providing £13.6 million this year to support schools to implement that whole-school approach. This will enable schools to expand and improve those services such as school counselling, to deliver universal and targeted well-being interventions, and to train staff. So, there is work going on. You said that there are some really good examples as well, and I look forward to learning about and seeing some of those examples in practice. I'll also be working very closely with the Cabinet Secretary for Education. I know that you're aware of her commitment in this area as well. So, I can assure you that already we have looked at how we can work closely together, and we will continue to do that.

I thank the Minister.

Item 6 is a statement by the Minister for Social Care: our vision for foster care in Wales. I call on the Minister for Social Care, Dawn Bowden.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd, a phrynhawn da. I very much welcome the opportunity to make my first statement as Minister for Social Care about our vision for foster care in Wales. As we enter Foster Care Fortnight, this is a real opportunity to celebrate the progress that we're making to improve fostering services and to highlight the important work foster carers do to give children and young people a loving home.

There are more than 7,000 children in the care of local authorities in Wales, and many have experienced abuse and neglect. These children are among the most vulnerable in our society, and they deserve the best possible future. It's our policy to try to keep families together wherever we can, but sometimes it's not possible for children to remain with their families, so foster care is a way of offering children and young people a safe and nurturing home when their birth families are unable to do so.

Our vision is for all children in foster care in Wales to have stable lives, to have trusted relationships, to feel cared for, and to benefit from high-quality foster care for as long as they need it, allowing them to make a successful transition to adulthood and independence. 

In the short time that I've been the Minister for Social Care, I've been impressed by what I've learned about the work that's been done to improve the fostering sector, and I want to pay tribute to the dedication and commitment of my predecessor, Julie Morgan, who has done much to promote and improve fostering. This work has been done in the face of pressures on public sector finances and the cost-of-living crisis, which has had such a huge impact on families all over Wales.

Dirprwy Lywydd, at the heart of these improvements has been Foster Wales. Launched in July 2021, Foster Wales is a collaborative national network of the 22 local authority fostering teams across Wales. Its main aim is to improve the ability of local authority fostering services to recruit and retain foster carers so that we can rebalance service provision, address demands, and ultimately improve the quality of placement choice for children.

But it also offers so much more. Foster Wales provides an opportunity to ensure local authority fostering services in Wales continue to develop and adapt to improve outcomes for children. Supporting Foster Wales is one of our key programme for government commitments, and we have provided £3.7 million towards its development. This funding has supported a range of new initiatives to raise the public profile and awareness of fostering, and to improve the offer for our existing foster carers.

We know that we need to continually recruit more foster carers, especially if children are to be looked after in the right place, by the right people, with the right skills to meet their needs. Foster Wales is key to this and is working towards the ambitious target of recruiting an extra 800 foster families by 2026.

To help raise awareness of foster care and encourage people to consider fostering, it has undertaken several campaigns, all of which represent the voice of children and young people in care. Our efforts are having a positive effect. The awareness of the Foster Wales brand has significantly increased, and local authorities are receiving more enquiries from potential foster carers.

But retention of foster carers is just as important, and we have directed significant investment towards this. Offering consistent support to our foster carers is key to retaining their expertise. Foster Wales has launched the national commitment, which is an agreed package of training, support and rewards enjoyed by every one of our foster carers in Wales. And I know that our local authorities are continuing to work hard to ensure the components outlined within this commitment are delivered on a consistent basis.

In response to feedback from foster carers, we’ve also developed a learning and development framework, which offers a consistent approach across Wales. And I'm pleased that foster carers are able to access these opportunities that meet their professional and personal needs, alongside supporting them to provide high-quality care for children and young people.

At the heart of our retention policy is the need to treat foster carers as equal and valued members of the team around the child. We're continuing to fund the foster well-being programme, which is delivered by the Fostering Network and promotes equality of status by bringing together all the professional networks involved in supporting children who are looked after, including foster carers.

Income is often an important consideration for families thinking about or continuing fostering, and I believe that those who care for our children should be adequately resourced to cover the costs of the children in their care.  We are in the process of undertaking a comprehensive piece of work to identify the costs of introducing a new approach to fostering allowances that focuses on the actual costs of caring for a child.

I understand and recognise how ambitious our programme of work has been, and the progress we've made to date has been considerable. It's thanks to the energy and the commitment of dedicated staff from across our fostering regions, our third sector partners and our foster carers that we've been able to achieve so much. 

However, there's more we can and should be doing to ensure our fostering services in Wales are as effective and efficient as they can be. We've seen the beginnings of a transformation in foster care, and I'm committed to continuing to review our policies and practices in Wales, to ensure that our foster families and fostering services have the support they need to guarantee the best outcomes for the children in their care.

I'm very much looking forward to continuing our journey to develop an effective, co-ordinated Wales-wide approach to transforming our foster care services, and ultimately building better futures for our children here in Wales. Diolch yn fawr.

Thank you for your statement, Minister. I welcome you to your new role, and I'm looking forward to working with you. I'm delighted to help highlight Foster Care Fortnight and celebrate the role of foster carers in Wales. Foster carers transform the lives of children and young people who, through no fault of their own, enter the care system. It is right that we put on record our sincere thanks to everyone involved in fostering.

Sadly, in the past decade, we have seen the number of looked-after children increase by over a third. Yet, at the same time, we have seen a decrease in the number of foster carers. While I welcome the Minister's commitment to recruit an extra 800 foster families by 2026, we need action now. According to the Fostering Network, we need around 400 more fostering families today in order to provide care for children and young people across Wales.

We also have an issue with the high turnover in children's social care work teams. Only half of all foster carers have had the same supervised social worker over the past two years, with some families having a staggering four or more. This lack of continuity has a dramatic effect on the child and the foster family. We have to ensure that not only do we have sufficient foster carers, but also a sufficient social care workforce to support them. Minister, what steps are you taking to ensure that Wales recruits enough social workers to meet case loads? We know that, according to Social Care Wales, 42 per cent of all children's services social workers work primarily for an agency. What assessment have you made of the impact providing agency staff is having on children's services budgets across Wales?

I welcome your commitment to the retention of foster carers. One of the biggest asks for foster families is official recognition. The Fostering Network has long called for a national register of foster carers, which would improve their status, both within the sector and in the public eye. Minister, can you provide an update on the Welsh Government's position on such a register? Will you support its urgent introduction? I also welcome the commitment to looking at the fostering allowances. Minister, can you confirm whether or not you are looking at the harmonised rates suggested by Pro Bono Economics and the Fostering Network? Can you also confirm whether allowances are to be harmonised across Wales or left to the individual children's services departments?

Finally, Minister, we have had two successful pilots of a scheme that uses foster carers to support families to safely keep their children at home with them. This edge-of-care prevention programme has proven successful at keeping children out of care. Children's services are under tremendous pressure, and we have seen large delays in section 47 assessments in some parts of the country. The Step Up Step Down programme could help alleviate some of that pressure. Minister, do you have any plans to roll out this programme across Wales? Thank you again for your statement, and I look forward to working with you to improve fostering services in Wales. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Thank you, Altaf, for those comments, and the number of very important points that you've made. Can I start by joining you in thanking all of those foster carers who provide that invaluable service, as you say, to some of the most vulnerable children in our society?

It is a concern to all of us, isn't it, to see the number of children in care in Wales. Per head of the children's population, we have more children in care in Wales than in any other part of the UK. I don't believe for one moment that that is because the children in Wales are any different to the rest of the UK. But we have to take a very different approach to the way in which we look after those children on the edge of care and coming into care. And that's why the recruitment campaigns that we've been doing around foster carers are so important. There has been a significant number of those recruitment campaigns, and we are seeing some results from that, as I said in my statement. We're seeing an increased number of expressions of interest to come into foster care, but we need to translate those expressions of interest into people actually coming forward and taking up that responsibility.

But just as important to that is retaining those foster carers in the system. And I say that's important because we have a transformation of children's services programme in Wales, which comprises lots of radical reform about the way that we deal with children's services up to and including children who are looked after. And part of that transformation programme is that we try to keep as many of those children out of residential care as we possibly can. In order to do that, we have to do a number of things, one of which you've already touched on, and that's keeping children at home. That's working with families and carers to enable those children to stay safely in the families that they were either born into or that they live with. If we can do that, then obviously that takes the pressure off the children's residential service, which we know is a major problem for us in terms of the number of places available. We need to keep children in their own communities, and we know that that is problematic. So many children, when they go into care, are placed into residential care that is a long way from where they live, is out of county; sometimes it's even in England. So, all of that we have to look at within the transformation of children's services programme that we have.

We're in the early stages of that programme, but it can be transformational if it works. And all of that is leading to various pieces of legislation that we're going to introduce. I will be introducing the social care Bill next week, which will move towards the elimination of profit in children's services. We think that that is hugely important, because we think that any income and any fees associated with children's care should be reinvested into children's care and not given out as dividends to shareholders. And I'm afraid we're seeing too many hedge companies and so on moving into that space at the moment, seeing the children's care sector as a place to make a quick buck. 

So, the national register, Altaf, that you talked about, that's really important. It's something that the sector has called for for a long time, and I just want to reaffirm that I'm committed to considering introducing a national register. We need to work with the sector on that and take all of those views into account. We've had initial discussions with the fostering network around that. We've got to do it in consultation with the sector, because it isn't straightforward. It is quite complex, but it is something that needs to be undertaken in a timely and controlled way, ensuring that it's going to be properly resourced. But I'm very committed to working towards that. 

Thank you for your statement, Minister. I'm pleased to note on behalf of Plaid Cymru the importance of Foster Care Fortnight and, of course, the invaluable contribution made by foster carers. Plaid Cymru is also proud of the progress that has been made through the co-operation agreement, progress that was very much needed to take steps towards removing profit from care. And it's important that the voices of children and young people are at the heart of efforts to improve the care that they receive in Wales. 

It's almost exactly a year since the Children, Young People and Education Committee published its report on radical reform in the care system. I was a member of the committee at the time, and we heard directly from children and young people about their experiences of care, and a number were firmly of the view that some foster carers were overly motivated by profit. And this was clearly expressed by the contribution of a member of the Welsh Youth Parliament, Rosemary Squires, one of my constituents from Swansea, who emphasised, in her simple but powerful words:

'We are people, not profit.'

You said in your statement, Minister, that the children in our care as a corporate parent are among the most vulnerable members of society and that they, in your words, deserve the best possible future. Therefore, bearing in mind that the committee undertook detailed work on what would improve their experiences of care in a genuinely radical way, and bearing in mind, too, that the Government rejected every recommendation that we made regarding those radical reforms that we wanted to see, excepting one, are you confident that the work currently under way is sufficient to respond to the challenge set by the young people who steered the committee's work? And can you tell us how that report has guided your vision in terms of fostering in particular? 

Altaf Hussain referred to the register, and you said that that work is under way. Well, as part of the Government's response to the committee report, the Government agreed to develop a national register because it would be something that would raise the status and recognition for foster carers, whilst also improving safeguards for children and provide an enhanced picture of the provision and support available across Wales. So, it's a year since we received that commitment, so can we have an update on exactly what is happening, because it sounds as if not much has happened in that regard? And in terms of the plans afoot that you listed today and the investment that has been made, how will progress be measured and how will you evaluate the effectiveness of these plans?

Your predecessor, Julie Morgan, was strongly in favour of the corporate parenting charter. Could you give us examples of how that charter has improved the services that care-experienced children and young people receive from public services? And bearing in mind that it is a voluntary charter, is there consistency now across Wales?

You also mentioned in your statement about this target that Foster Wales has in terms of recruiting 800 foster families by 2026. The Fostering Network states that Wales is short of 400 foster carers at the moment. You said that there has been progress made in this direction, but we didn’t have a great deal of clarity about how much progress has been made. So, bearing in mind that Foster Wales has been in place now for some years, can you give us an idea of how close we are to reaching that target of recruiting 800 foster families?

You also mentioned this process that is currently under way in terms of a new focus for fostering allowances, as those who care should receive sufficient funds to provide the best possible care. Well ,again, we heard those exact same words from your predecessor two years ago in response to a question from Heledd Fychan, so what work has been done already on this? I’d like to know a little bit more in terms of the details on that. And also, when will the work be completed, do you think?

And finally, I’d like to know how you are ensuring that the views of children and young people in care are heard in terms of the development and effectiveness of these new plans. Does the scale of their ambition in these plans meet the aspirations of those young people, and our duties as corporate parents to ensure that those young people receive the fairness and the better future that they deserve? Thank you.

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Sioned, for those very important points and questions and can I say how appreciative I am of the work that we have done with Plaid Cymru to deliver the programme for government commitments around the transforming children’s services programme? Because that will be transformational, in my view, when we are able to deliver all of the policies that are contained therein. These things don’t happen overnight and I know you understand that. These are long-term programmes with a particular aim. In terms of the eliminating profit from child residential childcare, we’re talking about a 10-year programme to move from where we are now to where we want to be. We know that that will take some time in terms of the transition from where we are now to getting profit out of the sector. All of those organisations that are in the sector for profit, we want as many of those to transfer into the third sector or to the not-for-profit model. Some of them may be prepared to do that, a number of them won't. We’re working on the basis that a number of them won’t, and so, therefore, we have to have alternatives in place, and as I said in my response to Altaf Hussain, foster carers will be critical and crucial in that, in delivering the kind of care that we would want to see that keeps them out of residential services.

I know that my predecessor, Julie Morgan, was very grateful to the children and young people’s committee, as am I, in terms of the work that was done. And I’ve had conversations with Jayne Bryant, who was the previous Chair of that committee, so we’ve been able to catch up on a number of pieces of work that you did on radical reform, and the evidence from that inquiry was hugely important, and I don’t want anybody to think that we haven’t taken any notice of what those children said in that committee in public, because that was very, very important evidence for us. And the fact that we didn’t accept all of the recommendations—we actually accepted in part or in whole around 20 of the recommendations—[Interruption.] Yes, albeit what we didn’t accept was that there was the need to do a lot of that through legislation. So, I think it’s important to say that what we were looking at in the evidence that the committee had was that our programme, that radical programme that we’re trying to transform children services in, and which Plaid Cymru have been very much part of—a lot of those areas of work that we’re doing there is informed by the evidence that those young people gave to that committee. The fact that it’s not necessarily in legislation doesn’t mean that it isn’t being utilised and it’s not going to form part of our work.

You’ve asked particularly about the national fostering register, and I briefly responded to Altaf, and as I say, I’ll repeat what I said then. We do know, and we are aware, that stakeholders have been asking for this for some time, and although there are a lot of benefits to introducing a national register, we do have to take a balanced view in terms of whether or not we adopt that. As I said, although I'm committed to considering the introduction of such a register, we do have to work with the sector and take all those views into account when deciding whether or not that is the right way forward. We are in discussions with the Fostering Network around that, and we're undertaking a scoping exercise to establish what a national register could actually look like, whether there are any legislative requirements attached to that and what the operational feasibility of that might be. So, we'll continue down that road, it's something that I'm keen to continue looking at, and we'll report back in due course.

The other thing—sorry, Altaf, you did raise it and I didn't specifically answer it, but I'll answer it from Sioned instead—is around the financial support for foster carers. It's important to say, isn't it, that foster carers come into foster caring for the right reasons. They don't come into it for the money, but when they do come into it, we have to make sure that they are properly remunerated for what they're doing and that the level of allowance that they get is commensurate with the type of child that they're looking after. There are differences in how much a child costs. You know if you've had children yourself that at different stages of their life—mine are adults now and they cost me more than they did when they were babies. This is how it is. And so we have to take all of that into account.

The payments for foster carers, as you will know, are diverse, right the way across Wales. So, although we have the national minimum allowance, which is the same in every local authority, we do see differences in each local authority. Some local authorities introduce additional benefits to go alongside the national minimum allowance, so we do see some authorities that reduce council tax, that give free access to leisure services, provide free car parking. They give birthday allowances and Christmas allowances and so on. But it's not consistent across the 22 local authorities, and that's part of the work that we are looking at. We commissioned a report to have a look at that, we also asked Foster Wales to undertake a comprehensive piece of work to identify the costs of introducing a new approach to fostering allowances, and at the moment we are in the process of analysing those reports. That isn't going to come without a cost, and there's no point in me standing here and just saying that we can deliver huge increases in those allowances, but we do want to make them more equitable—[Interruption.]—and we do want to—. Yes, we absolutely do want to make sure that there's a fair allowance and that there's an equitable allowance and that it's consistent across the 22 authorities. So, that's a piece of work that is ongoing.

I'm trying to think what else you asked me. Measures—how we'd measure that. So, as part of the standard grant monitoring arrangements, we've got regular meetings with Foster Wales and members of its governance board to discuss performance and metrics. Foster Wales is also a member of the transformation delivery group, which has been established to lead and drive forward the delivery of our transformation programme. That group has established two work streams to look at data metrics to drive and monitor progress, as well as early intervention and prevention to ensure join-up and effective delivery. But, ultimately, what I would say is we will know that our programme has been delivered successfully if we see fewer children in care, we see fewer children being placed in care far away from home or out of county and we see that we have more foster carers coming into our networks so that children can have a more acceptable looked-after life, if you like, in a family setting. So, that's how I would like to see all of that happening, and I think that was everything that you asked. I think I covered everything, anyway, but thank you, Sioned.

Thank you very much to the Minister for making this very important statement today during Foster Care Fortnight. I'd also like to start off by putting on record my thanks to all the foster carers, whose impact on children can be transformational.

So, I'll just very briefly touch on a couple of matters. One of the big issues that care-experienced young people have said to me, during the lots of contacts that I've had with them, about foster care is they consistently bring up the issue of not having enough flexibility in their day-to-day life. They raise the issue of not being able to stay away overnight without getting permission from the social worker, which I don't think is actually necessary, but they still have this perception and that's what's happened, and the ability to go to after-school clubs and going out for tea. I wondered if there was anything you could think of that would help make that more flexible. That was one of the issues that the young people brought up. The other issue was the importance of being placed with sisters and brothers and how crucial that was and, again, that is very important to the young people. That was one of their big, important issues. And then, finally—I think Altaf Hussain did raise this—the Step Up Step Down programme piloted in Pembrokeshire. I know that the Welsh Government's ambition is to keep children at home and I wondered if you had any measure of how successful that was and whether you are going to be able to extend it.

Can I thank you, Julie, for those questions? And again, thank you so much for the work that you've done already in this field; I feel like I'm coming in on the back of somebody who is making my job an awful lot easier, because of everything that you did in the lead up to me being appointed as a Minister. So, diolch yn fawr for that.

The first thing I would say is that, this morning, actually, I was at the national fostering network round-table and, having that opportunity to sit down and talk directly with foster carers, I don't think there's anything that can substitute for that. You can have briefings from officials and you can talk to people, but actually being sat around a table in the same room, with people who are giving you their lived experience of the kind of things that they have to deal with—. It was interesting that somebody actually raised that very point this morning about—. If you can believe this, they had a child in their care who needed an emergency dental appointment and they took them to the hospital, but, because they weren't the parent or the legal guardian of the child, the hospital couldn't perform the procedure. Now, it was sorted out, but it was an unnecessary delay when this child needed some treatment, because the foster carer didn't have that authority to do it. So, there's all this stuff around that delegated authority, isn't there, and making sure that local authorities, really, are aware of the importance of reducing the unnecessary bureaucracy around that. We know that we've got legislation and supporting guidance that ensures that foster carers are authorised to make those kinds of everyday decisions about their foster child, wherever it is possible. The key to this is about social workers liaising more closely with the foster parents, and, again, I heard stories this morning of where that doesn't always work very effectively.

We are in the process of delivering a national framework that you'll be familiar with and that has got to be—if it does nothing else, it has got to be—about having a consistency of approach across all 22 authorities, much like in my response to Sioned Williams around the foster carer allowances. The way in which social services interact with foster carers and the support that they give needs to be consistent as well. So, I think that's another key piece of work that we need to make sure that we develop, and deliver the kinds of outcomes that you're talking about, particularly when we're talking about—. You know, children are children and they need to play with other children and they shouldn't have things like that put as a barrier in the way, to stop them doing that, going and having interaction with friends and so on.

You talked about the Step Up Step Down pilot—and sorry, Altaf, you did raise this as well—but, again, as part of our transformation of children's services programme, we take the view that, no matter where children live, we want to support them to remain with their families, where possible, with fewer children and young people entering into care. So, we did work alongside the Fostering Network and our statutory sector, as you say, to launch this pilot in Pembrokeshire to support vulnerable families. That pilot offers a very innovative approach to supporting families on the edge of care by providing specialist, highly trained family support to foster carers, who can provide time-limited and preventative support to those families in need, helping them to stay together.

Now, I understand that the pilot is going very well, but it was only launched in November last year. So, it’s still early days and too soon to have done any significant evaluation yet. However, I do plan to visit Northern Ireland soon to learn more about the success of the programme there, as we're looking to the future roll-out across Wales. So, hopefully, I'll be in a position to come back to the Senedd and report on progress on that roll-out in the not-too-distant future.

Finally, Jane Dodds.

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Llywydd. Thank you so much for your statement on this really important issue, and I would also like to record my thanks to all foster carers. They are awesome. I, myself, have been responsible for placing children with foster carers at any time of the day or night. They receive children that they often know very, very little about. These are, sadly, traumatised and vulnerable children, who we leave with them, and they do an amazing job.

I’m pleased to hear that you have in your view the Step Up Step Down programme, because that will be transformational to keep children at home, but to make sure that our foster carers feel part of a child’s life. Having taken them on at their most vulnerable point, it’s so rewarding then to see, hopefully, them returning home, and being part of that.

I would just like to ask you this one specific question. Given all that we've said about foster carers, they need to be paid. They need to be salaried. They should not have to not be paid when they don’t have children with them, which is the current situation. It’s unacceptable. We would not accept that people, when they have holidays, are not getting paid. So, I would like you, in your consideration—I don’t expect an answer now, because I know we've overrun—to please look at salaried foster carer schemes. Thank you. Diolch yn fawr iawn.  

Thank you, Jane Dodds, for that. Just on that very specific question, I'm certainly happy to look at that. We are looking at the whole process of payment for foster carers. We are looking at the harmonisation of formal foster carers with kinship carers, because we know that there are differentials between those as well. I don't know that we have a specific piece of work on salaried foster carers just yet, but I will certainly take that back and discuss that with officials and come back to you and let you know. Thank you.  

I thank the Minister.

The next item will be the statement by the First Minister on Tata Steel. Vaughan Gething to make the statement.

Diolch, Llywydd. As Members are aware, I travelled to Mumbai on Thursday 9 May to meet with the managing director and the chief financial officer of Tata Steel. They will ultimately decide the future of the Tata's Welsh facilities.

We discussed the significance of the steel sector to Wales and the rest of the UK, together with its essential contribution to economic growth and our collective security. During extensive talks, I strongly emphasised the need to avoid compulsory redundancies across Welsh sites and the importance of maintaining their downstream operations. I want to ensure that production levels are fully maintained, with a longer term future at Trostre, Shotton, Llanwern and Caerphilly.

As a UK general election could arrive as soon as this summer, I reiterated the Welsh Government's call for the company not to make irreversible choices ahead of an election that could materially change the industry's future. We have consistently and proudly made the case from the Welsh Government that Wales deserves the best deal for steel, not the cheapest deal.

It is disappointing that the formal consultation has now concluded, and, as a result, we have to plan on the basis that blast furnace 5 will close in June, and to make preparations for blast furnace 4 closing by the end of September. Negotiations on wider issues affecting the workforce with the steel trades unions are ongoing.

The Cabinet Secretary for Economy, Energy and Welsh Language and I will maintain a close dialogue with trade union colleagues on this matter. The Cabinet Secretary is arranging a visit to Llanwern to discuss in further detail how we can best support the priorities of the workforce as talks continue. As well as urging an approach that avoids compulsory redundancies, it is important that workers who remain with the company are rewarded with the pay that recognises their skills, talent and dedication. The Welsh Government continues to engage with the transition board. We will press the case for rapid action from partners over the coming months.

To focus our support measures, we require detailed information on those affected by transition plans in order to ensure that support can be provided quickly to employees and suppliers. The supply chain within Wales is significant and reaches beyond steel communities directly. The company has now agreed to share this information, and I look forward to the Welsh Government working with them and our wider partners on these crucial details that will impact the lives of thousands of workers and businesses.

In the course of our talks, I also highlighted the difficulties of dealing effectively with the current UK Government and stressed once more that we still do not know the conditions of the £500 million grant from the UK Government. This is an unacceptable situation for any Welsh Government to find itself in. I still find it remarkable that the UK Government's business Secretary refused to meet with me at any point in my time as the economy Minister, and has more recently failed to engage in the transition process.

I recognise the widespread impact that this planned transition will have if Tata implement their publicly stated plan. It will affect communities and people right across Wales. That is why we have urged the business to think again. If they are determined to act ahead of a general election, then they must ensure that current production levels are maintained across the entire downstream operation. It is welcome that, during our talks, the company set out that they have and will have sufficient reserves of hot-rolled coil and slab to guarantee the current production levels of all of their downstream operations. That will be hugely important to the workforce at Trostre, Shotton, Llanwern and Caerphilly.

I've also asked for clarity on Tata's plans for the electric arc furnace build, including, of course, the importance of using Welsh companies as much as possible, supporting local jobs, to build and develop the process. We will work with businesses to explore how the Welsh Government can encourage the urgent work required to maximise the potential investment and employment this could bring to steel communities and Wales as a whole.

It is a fact that there is still community concern that the EAF may not be built. I made it clear to Tata that clarity on the planning process is, therefore, important. I raised concerns over the quality of EAF-produced steel and discussed the need to ensure that customers can rely on steel produced through this process. I understand that research, development and innovation projects will be in place to ensure that all current operations can be supported, and we will, of course, be monitoring progress on this matter very carefully.

We discussed important areas of shared interest, including investment opportunities in and around Port Talbot and collaboration with Welsh universities, particularly Swansea, on all areas of green steel production. This includes scrap processing and construction, amongst other priorities. I was able to highlight the significant investment and jobs opportunity represented by the Global Centre of Rail Excellence in Onllwyn, and I am pleased to confirm that the company agreed to consider a memorandum of understanding with GCRE. Welsh Government officials and Tata senior executives are meeting in Onllwyn today to discuss this MOU. I hope that this work can lead to quality employment opportunities for workers who will be affected directly by the transition. 

The final issue I raised was my concern over funding for the Steel and Metals Institute in Swansea, which is so critical to finding innovative ways of supporting green steel production. I'm pleased to confirm that the company has agreed to consider funding a significant number of positions. My officials will be taking forward this work over the coming weeks, of course, together with the economy and energy Secretary, who is the lead Minister in the Government for our work with Tata. 

Llywydd, it remains the view of this Government that the outcome we are facing and the loss it represents was preventable, and is still preventable. For many years, the Welsh Government has made the case for a fully fledged UK industrial strategy that prizes our sovereign assets and links business investment to long-term growth beyond London and the south-east. This is the fundamental shift that is required to unlock the ambition of our steel industry, and what we should all expect from any UK Government—a level of ambition and practical support that our steelworkers deserve and I believe our country needs. 

Steel is the thread that will run through the economy of today and tomorrow. The UK Government was asked whether it has the ambition to make Wales and the UK the centre of that greener future. So far, it is impossible to describe the answer as anything other than 'no'. Talented Welsh workers make high-quality Welsh steel, and their work is good for growth and good for security. They deserve the backing of an ambitious Government with the tools to back them. Thank you, Llywydd.

First Minister, thank you for your statement this afternoon. If anyone wants to try and understand the gravity of the situation, the BBC headline this morning on the 2,000 job losses reaching into the communities of Aberavon and the surrounding area, not just the steelworkers, but also the subcontractors, the community facilities that rely, obviously, on such a big employer, it will be a massive, detrimental, I would suggest, transformation in the short term. I've put on record the Welsh Conservatives' position that we would have liked to have seen at least one of those blast furnaces staying open until, obviously, the arc furnaces had come into existence and profitable production.

I do take issue with your point that the UK Government doesn't have ambition when it comes to steel. By putting £500 million on the table and working with Tata Steel, that is making sure that Wales will stay at the forefront of steel-making production here in Wales. But that doesn't underestimate the very serious short-term consequences of the Tata announcement back in September. I think I've heard you say, First Minister, the you regret that the business Secretary has never visited the plant. She was there in September with the Secretary of State when, sadly, that disappointing news about the closure of the blast furnaces was being announced, and also then highlighting the news of the £500 million of UK Government investment, along with the £100 million that has been put on the table for the transition board. It would be worth trying to understand—you make much play of the general election coming in the coming months—if you have had discussions with the frontbench in Westminster of your own party, and have you sought assurances from that frontbench? Those assurances clearly are not strong enough to convince the company to actually stay their hand and ultimately wait, if there were to be a change of government, which I hope there won't be—I hope that the Conservatives win that general election. But, clearly, you went to Mumbai with a set of proposals. Were those proposals identified as Keir Starmer's proposals, which he would adopt if he was to be the Prime Minister? Why did Tata Steel not feel confident enough to say, 'Okay, we'll take you at your word, First Minister. There is an alternative here', rather than proceed with what is on the table—£500 million of UK Government money, with two arc furnaces, protecting jobs and making sure that Wales will be at the forefront of steel-making production?

I also heard you, in response to the Plaid Cymru Member for South Wales West earlier this afternoon, questioning the structure of the transition board. It's the first time I've heard you raise concerns about the transition board and the way it has been constructed. You were vice-chairman of that, I think, when you were Minister for the economy. I believe the new Minister is the current vice-chairman of that. I struggle to see why, if you had such a big role to play in establishing that transition board, you are now casting doubt on its ability to deliver for the workers who sadly will be losing their jobs in Port Talbot, and, obviously, making best use of that money that the UK Government has put on the table.

I'd also like to try and understand from your statement this afternoon what type of data you are trying to secure off Tata Steel to try and understand about the directly employed employees affected by, obviously, this announcement, but, equally importantly, the subcontractors, who most probably tally up to the same number as those who are directly employed, who are sadly going to be losing their livelihoods. So, could I try and understand—? I support you and the Government in your efforts in trying to get hold of this data to, obviously, tailor the support that the Government is potentially able to put on the table, and, notably at the moment, I think I'm correct in saying, there is no Welsh Government money allocated to support retraining purposes; all that retraining is coming out of the transition board money identified by the UK Government.

You highlighted the Global Centre of Rail Excellence and the memorandum of understanding that you hope might be crafted between Tata Steel and the global centre of excellence. Could you highlight a little bit more as to what tangible benefits you would like to see coming from that memorandum of understanding? I hope that it is speedily put in place and that there are direct benefits to both local communities that might well benefit from direct investment from Tata if they are going to put money into that global centre of excellence.

And also, you talk about the institute of steel and the proposals that you put before the Tata representatives that you met in Mumbai about investing in the institute. Could you elaborate a little bit more on exactly what your proposals were and what they are considering making available to the institute, so that we can have the best possible opportunity to cement south Wales's position at the forefront of green steel making? I appreciate there's a political discussion here going on, but, equally, there will be that investment in the site at Port Talbot. There will be security for steel making, going forward, and sadly, in the short term, it is going to be very challenging, but it will rely on co-operative working to make sure that that transition to the arc furnaces is done as smoothly and as timely as possible to secure that steel-making capacity here in south Wales.

Look, I'll try and respond constructively to a range of the points that were made. The challenge that we face is one where we're actually maximising the unity in this Chamber, helping to give us a stronger place to be. In a conversation with both the UK Government and, indeed, with the company, that's where it really was welcomed—the Conservatives voted in favour of the motion when, to be fair, Paul Davies was economy spokesperson for the Welsh Conservatives, in favour of a motion about wanting to see a blast furnace retained on the site. There are lots of good arguments for that, both the direct economic impact of the potentially eye-watering job losses in addition to our sovereign interests and why I do not think it is the right thing for any UK Government of any shade to sign up to a future where we could be the only G7 country that cannot make primary steel. We are then reliant on competitor economies to provide that steel that we still need, and, for the foreseeable future, that is likely to be the case. That then means the economic value is generated somewhere else, as well as the nature of the relationships that go alongside that. So, it was welcome that the Welsh Conservatives agreed with every other party in this place that that was the right thing to do. 

We want to have a constructive engagement with the transition board. The challenge is that, whilst the transition board gets a number of partners into the room, some of the points that are made here and immediately after transition board meetings take us away from our most constructive and positive areas of engagement. We will need a board that can act quickly and recognise that the board isn't there to control all other actors. And I've made this point before, that when there are significant unemployment events, the Welsh Government, our officials across a range of teams, have worked in a really nimble and proactive way with colleagues in Jobcentre Plus. So, there hasn't been a difference between the two different Government, and we've always worked with whoever leads that local authority. And that's been a real strength. That's exactly what we need to see happen here, but the scale of the challenge is even greater. If the transition board isn't nimble enough to do that, then actually we won't see the support that should be deployed in the manner that it could and should be. The money that the UK Government have put on the table is welcome, but if we're going to see the worst-case scenario delivered, then I'm afraid it won't be enough, and the time frame that's envisaged isn't going to deal with what we need.

The Welsh Government has already identified, across a range of our areas, the levers that we can use: the changes already made to the threshold for support from personal learning accounts—it's been changed specifically to take account of the Tata workforce; the fact that we have ReAct funding that has been reworked; the fact there is Communities for Work funding; the fact that we continue to support the apprenticeship framework. And one of our key asks is making sure that apprenticeships have the public assurance that their apprenticeships will be seen to conclusion. These are practical things, backed up by real Welsh Government resources, at a time when everyone knows our resources are particularly pressured, after 14 years of our budget being reduced in real terms, and that's just the undeniable truth. And yet, we are prepared to do everything we could and should do, within the budgets available, to support that workforce. And I do wish that the Welsh Government would have the support of Welsh Conservatives in standing up for this workforce rather than constantly trying to find a way to attack the Welsh Government and our desire to see those workers have the decent future that they deserve.

I'm afraid I don't share his view that this is just a short-term transition. And if Andrew R.T. Davies disagrees, he should go and talk to people from Shotton, he should go and talk to people who remember Ebbw Vale being a steel town and what happened when that transition took place. All of those challenges show that this is a longer term challenge, not simply a short-term event. A number of skilled workers could find immediate employment. The challenge will be will it be at the same rate and will they be able to stay in their communities for that work to happen. The next challenge is that wider group of workers, and that's why both the economy Secretary and I have been very clear about the need to access the information about the current workforce as soon as possible, but, crucially, the contractor workforce. And I am a little frustrated at the fact that, even now, we don't have access to that information. There are contractors who are making choices now about their current workforce. Tata know who their contractors are and they could share that information with us. We've never broken a confidence when it comes to information provided to us, and we've always managed to work in a really constructive way. We could and should be able to work with the local authorities—plural—who are most directly affected, with those contractors, with Jobcentre Plus, and with the company, to actually help those workers who are being directly affected now. We're not able to do that because the information hasn't be provided to us. I've been given the assurance that will be provided within days, and that will allow us to try and do the right thing for workers now as well as those who will be affected, potentially, in the future.

We'll then have a much wider challenge about the impact on a wider workforce—those people reliant on the significant spend. That's why not just the direct workforce, but, potentially, 7,000 to 9,000 extra jobs are affected by the change we're talking about. And if Tata proceed on their current plans, we need to be clear the greatest job losses will take place after the second blast furnace is closed, and those job losses could take place in the run-up to the end of the calendar year. So, October, November and December could be the three months with the biggest job losses, in the run-up to Christmas and the new year. I think that is a situation that we should avoid if at all possible. It's why I continue to make the case for a longer transition and make the case to wait for a general election that is imminent. And I spoke to Keir Starmer before flying out, and we're very clear that the UK Labour position is that the £0.5 billion on the table now is added to by £2.5 billion in a green steel transformation fund. A significant additional investment that is available for the capital, and also a manifesto that I think will see a need to invest in the future of steel making; we need more steel, not less, in our future.

The reality is, though, that I think the company are choosing to want to implement their plan before a general election. And they're not publicly going to move away from that. Whilst there hasn't been a general election, they're not about to say in public they will of course change their mind. It's important that we carry on making the case, though. If we're not prepared to fight for these jobs and for the sector, who is going to do it, because that isn't the message we're getting from UK Ministers at present? I want to see that change, and I want the maximum impact from people across this Chamber to try and deliver the best outcome for Welsh workers and, I believe, the best outcome for the UK in retaining this key sovereign asset.

Genuinely, I held out some hope that you'd return with something substantial, First Minister. And I say 'substantial' because, to be fair, you've highlighted some things in your statement. I mean, the potential for Tata to fund some researchers in Swansea University, but it was to consider funding; it wasn't actually delivering anything, was it? Let's be honest here, the time to go to India had long passed.

We first heard rumblings about the possible closure of the blast furnaces and job losses in Port Talbot last year. Where was the urgency then? The bosses of Tata were in the UK two weeks ago. Why didn't you meet with them then? Did you ask for a meeting? As far as I can see now, you went to India with no specific asks, no inclination from Tata that anything would change as a result of your visit, so what was the purpose? If anything, based on your statement, you've wasted time, to be quite frank. What is now happening at Port Talbot is monumental policy failure at both a UK Government and Welsh Government level over several years, if not decades. After all, we have been in this situation before, haven't we? A multinational company holding both Governments to ransom, looking for Government bung. For Tata, it's been a semi-regular occurrence.

You said in your statement that Tata should wait until after the next general election. It's a line repeated time and time again. Well, at the election will be too late. You said it yourself: blast furnace 5 closed by June, 4 in September. We need action now. And what is Labour's offer exactly? It's £3 billion for steel, not just for Port Talbot, but for the entire UK. Perhaps the First Minister could actually clarify the £2.5 billion or £2.6 billion that he mentioned to the leader of the opposition just now, because last time I checked, that wasn't Labour's policy. We were quick enough to criticise the sum on the table from UK Government. I mean, scratch the surface of the £3 billion and you'll quickly realise that it's not much better, if we were to divide that amongst all the steel sites in the UK. So, £3 billion for the entire UK when, on the continent, they're investing upwards of £2.6 billion in single sites. 

Now, let's be clear: once the blast furnaces are turned off, that's it, you can't turn them back on; they're not like the computers that we have in front of us here. Tata won't wait around for what would potentially be the same level of financial support, nor will they hang on for an election that nobody knows when it's actually going to happen. I'll repeat what I said last week: all parties in this Chamber have said that the blast furnaces should stay open; we had that reiterated by the leader of the opposition, that we need a genuine transition period, so what are we going to do?

There are three options, as far as I can see it, that are on the table, just like last week: nationalisation, preservation or managed decline. By the way, I'd welcome other options if there are any for consideration. That's why I submitted a no named day motion; let's debate these options, and let's come to a decision, because so far, all I've heard from both Governments is meek acceptance of the impending loss of up to 10,000 jobs in my region, and that simply is not acceptable. No fight, no desire, no passion, only fear of rocking the boat. Meanwhile, Tata isn't rocking the boat, they're capsizing it.

I don't accept virtually all of what the Member has said, and I regret the tone and the manner in which it's been put. This Government has fought for the steel sector over a number of years. Since the proposals were made, we have worked alongside trade unions and their representatives, not just in national office, but the reps within the workplace as well. The steelworkers themselves are genuine experts in how to run the site. If you were to talk to a group of steelworkers and their reps, I don't think they would say that this Government has not fought for them and is not continuing to fight for them; I don't think you would find that they believe that the time to go to India has long since passed.

We've been working with steel trade unions in understanding the nature of the negotiations they're having and when ministerial intervention could make a difference. And, in fact, when the leadership of Tata were here for two days, they were in talks with the steel trade unions; that's what they were doing. And we need to understand what is taking place within those negotiations, how we use our influence. That's why the economy and energy Secretary had a conversation with the steel trade unions last week, to understand where things have gone. That's why we had to make immediate choices about whether to go to Mumbai or not. I believe any First Minister of any party would, should and must have gone to Mumbai in the time frame that I did. It was the right thing to do, and I'm proud to have done so, and prouder still to keep on making the case and fighting for the investment that I believe could make a difference.

I reject the way that he categorised investment in key sectors of the economy as a bung for private industry. That sort of language will not go down well with the workforce who work there. You could say the same thing about lots of our other anchor employers. You wouldn't talk about the investment in skills in Airbus as a bung for the company to stay here. It's part of the grown-up relationship we need to have about how we grow our economy and secure work and investment in here for the communities that we are privileged to represent.

When it comes to the future of the EAF, I think it's really important that we recognise that an EAF is part of the future. There will be more EAF production, and I think that's the right thing to see happen. As a Government, we always have to be able to and prepared to do more than one thing at the same time. That's making the case for the future we want, and preparing for the futures that could come down to us. No-one would forgive us if we did not make preparations for Tata to implement the plan they're talking about publicly. That's exactly what we're doing. It is not acceptance that that will simply happen, and we are going along or just coalescing in that. Our fight is a genuine one for the future, and I'd hope that, within and outside the Chamber, we can get back to having as joined up a response as possible to maximise the impact that this Parliament and this Government can make for a future that I believe our steelworkers deserve.

Can I thank the First Minister for his statement, but not just for his statement? The people I talk to in Port Talbot—my neighbours, friends, colleagues—are thankful for you actually going out to Mumbai and showing leadership because, so far, we've not seen that from the UK Government. So, thank you very much for that and very much for putting the strong case for primary steel making to be kept here in Wales, and specifically in Port Talbot, because that seems to be something that the UK Government has lost sight of.

I've heard this afternoon some comments, but let me just be clear: people in Port Talbot, the steelworkers of Port Talbot, welcome your actions and this Government's actions. They are disappointed in the UK Government's failures, and they are angry at Tata themselves for actually making the decision to close down those blast furnaces without justification. This is not a green agenda; this is a financial decision by Tata. Can I make it clear on that? They are looking at the money side of it, not at the community side of it, not looking at the people side of it. And that's important to remind people of.

We all know the devastating impact this will have on the workforce—2,800 has been mentioned. Let's make it clear: as somebody said, it's about 9,000 with the supply chain and contractors. Some contractors are already laying off people now, before the blast furnaces even shut down. That's important. But, for this Government, let's think back to what we can be doing. I thank you for the PLA, because I know I pushed the agenda on the PLA, and making sure Tata workers and contractors are able to have that now and access that funding, because it's all about training and development where we can help them go somewhere else. The disappointment is that people are already leaving now. They're going to work in England now. We're losing that economy now. That's really hugely damaging to our local economy.

Now, just a couple of quick questions, because I know my time is up. The transition board, you mentioned that. Will you make sure that the Treasury release that £80 million? Because, so far, it's going nowhere. We've had notification of Tata's contribution of £20 million, and they've already said where they will spend it, how they will spend it, and how they will manage it. I've not heard that from the UK Government yet, so we need a commitment at the next transition board, because I sit on it, as does someone else in this Chamber, and someone else in this Chamber. We need that commitment that they will spend it, not just talk about it, and spend it quickly, because the workforce is going in a month’s time, and as you've said, in September, most of it. We don't want to be still talking in September, saying, 'Oh, where will we spend this?' We want commitments now. So, can you please ensure that that commitment is given?

And, secondly, will you please ensure that Tata put forward the planning application for the EAF? Because, as you say, there are workers in the steelworks who do not believe that the EAF will come. We need to see an application going in for planning, so that we can have confidence that they will actually deliver the EAF.

Thank you for the comments and the questions. I completely agree with David Rees: we should not be the only G7 country who surrenders our capacity to make primary steel. That is a sovereign issue for the UK Government. And there was a deal on the table that was available three years ago, and it would have been a better deal at the time, with a better glide path and, actually, I believe we would have had more workers still in employment with a different future, and we could have taken a step forward on having increased electric arc production alongside a more secure future for blast furnace production as well.

My concern there was—. I recognise the point the Member has made about the anger within the community that is real, and not just within the workforce but on a wider level, and I know that is directed at both the UK Government and the company. I have never lost sight of the people directly in the middle of all of this: the workforce in Tata, the contractors who know they're reliant on the business continuing, and people in the wider community who know that if you take out lots of well-paid workers from that economy, it will have an impact on all of them. I mentioned earlier the realities of different steel-making towns and the future that they have been left with. I don't want to see that for Port Talbot or indeed for the remaining works in Llanwern, and I want to see Trostre and Shotton have a healthy future with the operations they have, which is why it was so important to make the point about providing the slab and the coil for their future.

But on your point around contractors, I think I am very clear that we need the information about that, and people are being made redundant now. It's why the information is so important and so time critical. I also want to be clear about future training packages and what they could look like. Some workers will have skills in the business that aren't accredited, so they can't go and get a job with a different employer if they don't have the accreditation for this. The training will be really important to allow people to move on, and, again, some of that could and should be decent work that's available.

We don't yet have a plan for the £80 million, and I've seen that Tata have indicated how they want to spend their £20 million they've put on the table. It's part of the reason why I said what I said before, about the nimbleness and the speed of the transition board being able to make choices. Some of those choices will be required in the nearer future and with a rhythm that won't wait for a monthly meeting. We're going to need to have something that designs and brings together the different stakeholders with decision-making powers and responsibility, to understand how that resource will be used—not planned to be used, but will actually be used—and the transition board needs to recognise that it can't do all of that through the current pattern of meetings. That's a practical point that isn't politically controversial, I think. You either want the money to be used well, alongside the resource that we and other partners have, or you don't, and I think it would be the wrong thing to try to stick to a pattern that is convenient if you're going to the meeting, not convenient if you want to see the right outcomes for the workforce.

And I take on board the Member's point around the EAF planning application. Even in outline, it would be a helpful signal to the wider community that the EAF is going to be built, because if the blast furnace production ceases, there will be a gap of several years before you can have EAF production, and if you're importing steel to be rolled, there are always going to be concerns about whether, actually, the wider production will come on board. The sooner that concrete signal is sent out, the better.

The First Minister says he never lost sight of the workforce in Port Talbot and I'm glad to hear that, but let's remind ourselves of his record. The UK Government has put £80 million on the table for that transition board to support workers. Tata themselves have put £20 million. He and his Government, Llywydd, have put nothing—not one single penny to support workers through that transition board. That's his record in terms of supporting steelworkers in Port Talbot. Now, his only solution—. He's gone to Mumbai, and frankly it doesn't sound like he's secured anything from that meeting. He's been on that trip. So, the only thing that he can seem to point at as a potential solution appears to be a general election, and this £3 billion, which is fine, but the First Minister has now been asked twice to confirm the proportion of that £3 billion that would be spent specifically in Port Talbot, because if he can't make that clear to us in the Senedd, he certainly didn't make it clear in Mumbai to Tata. So, can you confirm the exact proportion of that £3 billion earmarked for Port Talbot?

Well, I think the tone of that contribution will really grate with families who are going to sleep anxiously and understanding whether there are people on their side in the fight for their future. I just think the Member should every now and again consider not just whether there are interesting clips for Welsh Conservative social media, but actually your wider responsibilities. I don't think you're getting anywhere close to those.

It is simply not true to say that the Welsh Government has not supported Tata financially, although we are not prepared to invest in the future of the workforce if the job losses that are currently being proposed go ahead. I have mentioned it more than once: personal learning accounts, the ReAct programme, Communities for Work, what we're doing with apprenticeships. There is a wide range of measures that we are prepared to take to support that workforce, as we have done in every other significant unemployment event and the way we have deliberately worked together with local managers and Jobcentre Plus to do that, and indeed local authorities of any and every political leadership.

I think when it comes to the demand that I set out to apportion the £3 billion green steel transformation fund—that's £2.5 billion, plus the £0.5 billion that's on the table and is not spent thus far—no-one in the sector will seriously believe that you could or should try and apportion that now without the conversation you need to have with the business about how they could use some of that money for a green steel transformation. If the Member wants to make a serious contribution, he'll get a serious response. I think the pantomime approach he is taking reflects very poorly on him, and it is recognised and understood very clearly by the directly affected workforce and communities. He should think again.

I'm disappointed to hear that the First Minister hasn't returned with any tangible good news for the workers and residents of Port Talbot, and I know many of the people I represent are going to be devastated. Workers are already being forced to leave their communities, and sometimes their families, due to the uncertainty of the last months and Tata's catastrophic job cut plans. In the wake of economic devastation, community life is going to be decimated. Plaid Cymru county councillor for Aberavon Andrew Dacey is vice-chair of the mighty Aberavon Quins rugby club, more than half of whose team have jobs either in the steelworks or connected to it. As well as his fears, obviously, for the future of the club, its viability and sponsorship, Councillor Dacey has spoken of disappointment being the main emotion being felt and the fact that his members are feeling so low they can't even talk about what's happening. So, what will be done to address this aspect, specifically, this economic, social and cultural cost that anyone who grew up in a mining community will recognise only too well? Because the job losses don't just impact the workforce, but all the companies that rely on them, and all of these people who are part of the organisations, clubs and societies that make Port Talbot and the surrounding communities what it is. So, how will you ensure that all those who are going to be affected are going to be considered and supported over the next months, and how are they going to be involved in any plans that the Government have of support? How can we protect the vitally important social fabric of Port Talbot?

This is one of the key drivers in this Government's action in understanding this isn't just an economic picture. It's not just a short-term relocation. If the jobs are lost at the scale and the speed that is being proposed, we know, sadly, from other parts of Wales, other steel towns, other communities, that there will be a long-lasting impact to that. That's exactly what we've been seeking to avoid, that social impact that I hear from everyone and anyone, when I've been to the town, when I've met with local councillors. And, of course, David Rees never loses an opportunity to talk about this, as indeed do other representatives of the area, and I would not expect people not to do that.

My concern is not just the economic and social impact, but about the fact that you've got a plan, and if people believe that the transition board with £100 million is going to resolve all of this, I don't think that actually meets the scale of the challenge. I don't think that's an honest engagement with the public. So, we've got to be clear this will require Government support and intervention to provide the training, the skills and the opportunities for the workforce to transition, and the speed of the transition. It was one of the points I had a regular conversation with the former First Minister about—not just if there's to be a loss, but the time over which it takes place makes a huge difference, because lots of people will leave the area. People can go to other parts of the world, as David Rees said, and if they've gone you can't guarantee they're going to come back. It also means the support you can otherwise have in place in the shorter term is actually much more difficult to marshal to give people the sort of hope they will need, as well as the practical, real experience.

I want to pick up on one of the points the Member made, and that is the broader point about well-being, about how people feel, that they feel able to talk about it. It's so important we find ways for people to talk. Often, collective environments where people are used to talking with each other about everything and anything are a useful way for that to happen. I've always been concerned about the potential mental health impact. There's a long run of evidence that large unemployment events lead to very real challenges in mental health and well-being, with very difficult consequences. So, that's why, during our time—and I know Jeremy Miles continues to make this case—there's a need for health board engagement around it. But to do that, we'll need to understand with more clarity the plans, the proposals and the impact on contractors, because those people would otherwise be lost, and we'll only see them if they engage in our services, rather than proactively engaging with them.

So, this isn't just a matter of job loss; it is much more than that. I want to see a future for Port Talbot that is a proud one, that builds on the legacy they have, rather than simply saying, 'We've done our bit', and at the end of the year, we're no longer there. That, I'm afraid, is what could happen if we only have the transition board process to work through, with a finite sum of money and the time frame that Tata are currently describing to deliver all of those significant redundancies.

First Minister, I know that you're fully aware of the importance of Llanwern to the regional economy, the people directly employed at the plant, the contractors, the suppliers and the spend in the local economy. The average age at Llanwern now is, I think, in the early thirties, and, of course, there are a number of apprentices there. So, it's easy to understand why there's a great deal of concern locally about the future of the plant, given the projected job losses that will come towards us in the future. It is integrated with Port Talbot, as you also know, of course, First Minister. I think that gives a lot of concern about the work of the transition board, just to make sure that Llanwern is fully considered, appropriately considered in the work of that board and the decisions that are made.

It was good to hear you talking about the monitoring of research and development in terms of the quality of steel that an electric arc furnace would produce, because, obviously, the automotive aspect of production at Llanwern is very much allied to that quality of steel. And it's very good to hear that you will be visiting Llanwern soon, as well. But I just wonder if you could give some assurances about the work of the transition board, specifically in terms of the issues that Llanwern has.

I'm very happy to give the Member the assurance that we continue to take an interest not just in Port Talbot, but in all of the downstream businesses, and Llanwern in particular, because in the proposals that Tata have made public, they expect there will be direct job losses in Llanwern in two to three years. Actually, the business at Llanwern, in particular its engagement with the auto sector, is highly regarded and it's an area where, if you look at the future needs of the UK economy and the way that vehicles will change, we'll still need those vehicles and we'll still need steel in them as well. So, I do think there's a case to be made that was part of the discussion about what future investment in all of those downstream businesses looks like. And it's why it was so important to make the ask and to get the commitment for coil and slab to be provided for downstream businesses. If you're waiting for an electric arc and you're potentially waiting for two or three years, or potentially more than three years, actually, where does that supply come from for those downstream operations and the hundreds of jobs on each of those sites that are directly employed, as well as all of the indirect ones?

And then also, what do you do—which is why the research point is important—in generating the right type of steel? It's also why I think the UK should not be the only G7 country not able to make primary steel. You're reliant on other parts of the world, potentially on other steel companies from Tata's point of view, because if a carbon border mechanism does come in at some point in 2027, they won't have the option of importing from India, that'll all have to come from the Netherlands, and will they have the capacity to do that? That's a practical challenge that I think needs to be worked through so that there's real confidence that those businesses won't be moved away. Because the quality of what comes from Shotton, Caerphilly, Trostre and Llanwern is highly regarded. The company recognises that and, crucially, their customers do as well.

There's a final point that I think is worth making. It's your point around the people with responsibilities. I think lots of people think that the steel workforce is an ageing workforce, but actually that hasn't been true for a long time. So, if these changes are made, lots of people with ongoing and real material responsibilities and financial liabilities could lose their jobs. If you're in your thirties, it's entirely possible that you have a house, with rent or with a mortgage, with children, with other bills to pay, and if you lose that employment, how long can a redundancy package make sure that you're still able to meet those responsibilities? The dislocation, socially and economically, is really significant. And that's also why we have consistently made the case in and around the transition board to make sure that, if people are made redundant, there's a route to having proper financial advice that is reputable. Because we have seen in the past, when people have large redundancy payments made, that it doesn't generate the best behaviour from people who see that as an opportunity to make money in an unscrupulous manner. So, we continue to make that case. That's why, in other instances, the company has actually paid for financial advice from a reputable source to be made available. It's an ongoing conversation that we need to be able to have. And again, I reiterate, we need to be able to make the primary case for the best possible outcome and then every other step around that, if we don't get the outcome we want, to try and make sure we have the best possible outcome for the people we're privileged to represent.

This catastrophic loss of jobs, as you said, First Minister, is preventable. We in this Senedd have the power to bring forward emergency legislation that would allow us to place a compulsory purchase order against blast furnace 4 and the heavy end related to it, which would allow us to prevent the decommissioning of that blast furnace. It would allow us to build a bridge to a change in Government and a new industrial policy in October and November, which would allow then the just transition to be implemented. How much would it cost? Well, we've got the figures. How much would it cost to maintain a mothballed blast furnace? When ThyssenKrupp did exactly that in Duisburg, it cost about £500,000 a month. When US Steel did the same in Fairfield, Alabama in 2015, it cost about the same. When Tata did it—they mothballed a blast furnace in Port Talbot between 2009 and 2013—it cost about the same amount. So, two months, £2 million. Wouldn't that be the best investment that this Welsh Government has ever made on behalf of Welsh workers and the Welsh economy?

I respect the fact that the Member wants to think of ideas and solutions, but we've got to think about whether we can implement them and whether they'll actually deliver the end that he wants. I don't think the final bill would be as he suggests. We've then got to have a discussion around what happens now with what is taking place, what comes next and, if we were to try to intervene, whether that operation would continue at all. I'm not convinced that is the route to preventing the eye-watering job losses that would otherwise happen. I know that the Member comes from a place of goodwill in making that suggestion.

He does make an important point, though, and that is that the manner of the decommissioning matters. You can decommission the furnace in a way that it could never be restarted, it would end up being damaged in the decommissioning process, or you could do it in such a way where it would be possible, albeit with costs to restart to actually ensure that a blast furnace is there post any changes made. That, though, requires an understanding of the investment in capital and in operational support for that to take place, and indeed the market for steel within the UK and wider as well.

So, there are practical things for us to keep on talking about. I'm committed, as indeed I know the economy Secretary is as well, to having any sensible conversation, any realistic conversation, around what we can do to try to maintain the future that our workers deserve, alongside the fact that we need to prepare for what would happen if Tata's plans were to go ahead to the time frame that they indicate they want to act. And of course, within that, there are several moving parts that land at the same time. This isn't a counsel of despair, it's a counsel of honesty about the leadership we require, the future that we could have, and the responsibilities we have in Government to prepare for more than one outcome.

First Minister, as a representative of a steel community that has seen the impact of devastating job losses in this sector, can I again thank you for all your work, and the economy Secretary for his work, in supporting the industry in Wales? The commitment from the Welsh Government, year after year, is in stark contrast to the UK Government's and their complete neglect of Welsh steelworkers and their abandonment of the Welsh steel industry.

First Minister, you rightly referred in your statement to the importance of maintaining downstream operations of the steel industry, including Shotton steelworks. Can I ask you if you will continue to fight for the downstream operations in Shotton steelworks with representatives both in this place and trade union colleagues of ours of those sites for the production of primary steelmaking in Wales, a vital necessity for any country of the G7?

Thank you, and thank you for again making the case for the future of Shotton. I know the Member does so consistently. It's a significant employer in the area. If those jobs were not secure, then actually that is not just an issue for Shotton, but actually for the wider area and the ecosystem and the jobs relying on it around it. There are two things, I think. The first is the amount of electric arc steel that Shotton is able to use in the future, because some of its operations could use electric arc, and some customers are interested in the carbon footprint of the steel they have. There is a range of steel products, but at the moment it's only possible to make them through a primary process, and we can either have that steel made in Wales for the UK, or that steel can be made elsewhere and we can import it. Now, if Tata are going to go ahead, we're going to need to make sure that that primary steel is imported in significant numbers. That's a really significant logistical operation. You've got to think about the capacity to get that steel into the country, and then to move it around in a manner in which it's required. So, there'll be a significant challenge, in freight terms, in not just getting stuff into docks, but then moving it around on our network. They're all the practical things that Tata will need to be able to deliver to ensure that the indications they've made that downstream businesses will be supplied are practical. But, as I say, I don't resile from the fact that I want to see a different approach, and I want to see a different reality, because I do bear in mind the point the Member regularly makes about what happens with significant large-scale redundancies without a plan for the future, and what that means for communities in the longer term, not just the immediate headlines. 

The words 'devastating' and 'catastrophic' have been used, and it's hard to find a sufficient superlative that describes the impact this is going to have. This will make Wales poorer. This is going to significantly make the economy of south Wales poorer for generations to come. I don't think we should underestimate the size of the impact of this on our economy and our society. And I for one welcome every opportunity the First Minister has made to speak to the management of Tata, both to try and get them to shift their decision, but also to make sure that we have some guarantees of what is left. I think, from what I understand from Tata over a number of years, they've been trying to get constructive conversation with the UK Government. We don't have the fire power to bring the sort of investments needed for a sustainable future for steel. Can he tell us if, in these conversations with the chief executives, he discussed how many efforts they had made to engage the UK Government in a serious conversation, and what the response was? 

And just on the situation of Trostre in Llanelli, I was glad to hear you say that you were told that there were sufficient reserves of hot rolled coil and slab to guarantee the production levels of their downstream operations. As we know, for Tata we use the word 'downstream'; it essentially means all the plants across Wales are linked, and the fate of one depends upon the others. Because the signals I'm getting from the workforce in Llanelli are much more alarmed than that reassurance suggests. They tell me that there are not sufficient stockpiles of the key ingredients of tin plate, that the progress in securing more has fallen behind, that Tata could make decisions to prioritise stockpiling Trostre over other operations in Europe and haven't done so, and not just the short-term supply, but what about the medium and long-term supply when they will be reliant on third party suppliers, and for the quality? Did he discuss them keeping the second blast furnace open long enough to make sure there were sufficient stockpiles, and what detail can he now press them on to make good that broad commitment they've given him?

Thank you for the questions. The Member makes a point that I completely agree with and has underpinned our approach to this issue all the way through, that if the Tata proposals go ahead, it has a significant national impact. This isn't just an issue for steel communities. The footprint is so significant in economic activity and it would have long-term consequences. I have had a number of discussions, including in Mumbai, about UK Government engagement. The company don't give a list of all of the meetings they had, and you wouldn't expect them to necessarily say their fully unreserved view on the level of engagement that they have had. But I'm aware, from when I started the job as the economy Minister, that there was a proposal on the table, which was essentially ready to go, which would have seen co-investment in the future facilities in Port Talbot, and would not have had the consequences we are discussing now. You might remember Kwasi Kwarteng for his later appearance in public life, but, actually, at the time, he was making the case that the UK should be a steel-making country, and that, actually, the challenge was the occupants of 10 and 11 Downing Street agreeing on what that approach should be. If we had managed to secure agreement then, we would be in a different position today, workers would be in a different position today, the company’s commitment to the future would have been sealed at that point, and I believe that people would have much greater certainty about their future.

When it comes to metals, the type and the stock, the Member’s absolutely right. So, the tin-plate plant at Trostre—every Heinz can around the country and much more comes from that plant. It’s got really high-quality ratings, it’s really reliable, very well regarded in terms of what it does. The challenge, though, is how much metal they need, where it comes from, will they be reliant on competitors, and if you’re producing primary steel from a plant in the Netherlands, will that come to Trostre or will it go to the tin-plate plant that is next door to the blast furnace in the Netherlands? And how much steel can come in from other parts of the Tata business before a carbon border adjustment mechanism that could come in in 2027? So, the scale of what’s required is really significant and not to be taken for granted.

I had, to my face, a commitment that the businesses would be fully loaded. Now, I want to see that commitment kept. If it isn’t, there won’t just be the challenge of not giving a commitment to me. In real terms, what that will mean about the company’s relationship with its workforce, and its ability to look after workers—. In India, Tata has a good reputation. This, though, this event, I think will challenge that fundamentally within steel-making communities right across our country.

Finally, Rhianon Passmore.

Diolch, Llywydd. First Minister, I welcome your statement and your clearly expressed desire to see the UK remain a primary steel-making nation. We cannot become the only G7 nation without this capacity, forced to rely on competitor states for steel, which strengthen, or not, the United Kingdom. So, whilst the critics carp from the sidelines, a Welsh First Minister must, as you have done, pull out all the stops to rage against what is being allowed to unfold before our eyes.

And today the world timely remembers the great Welsh poet, Dylan Thomas, on Dylan Thomas Day. First Minister, we all in this Senedd Cymru Welsh Parliament must say and join together,

‘Do not go gentle into that good night,'

but

‘Rage, rage against the dying of the light’

of the Welsh and UK steel industries, before it goes out for good. Two thousand eight hundred skilled jobs expected to go, 10,000 people impacted indirectly.

So, First Minister, how receptive were Tata representatives to your call for them to pause and wait until the political composition of the UK Government is known following the forthcoming general election? What does your Government intend to do in conjunction with Keir Starmer, the leader of His Majesty’s opposition, to make Tata change course and to safeguard the ability of Britain to make steel, to safeguard those well-paid skilled jobs of so many in my constituency and across Wales?

Thank you for the comments and the questions. Much of this comes down to the starting point of whether the UK should be the only G7 nation not able to make its own primary steel. I think that would be a poor strategic choice for the UK and has real consequences for Welsh workers today and in the immediate future.

Now, we have called repeatedly, including when Mark Drakeford was the First Minister, for no irreversible choices to be made this side of a general election that is not far off. That is the clear call from Keir Starmer too. Our challenge, though—. My concern is that the company have decided they want to make those choices before a Labour Government is in place, and that is a really significant challenge for us. If that irreversible choice is made, we will be left with the consequences.

Now, there are practical things that would need to be done before a second blast furnace is no longer operating, and the point I’ve made to Adam Price on the manner in which that is decommissioned would really matter as well. We will carry on making the very practical case that there is a different Government that I believe could and should be elected in the coming months that would have an entirely different view on what it is prepared to invest in and why—a very different partnership with clear expectations about how the company behaves as well. I still think that is a case that is worth making and fighting for. That’s certainly what I’ll be doing as a First Minister. I know the economy Minister is equally committed to making that case, and at the same time being prepared to prepare for Tata implementing their plan before a change in UK Government. No irreversible choices, I believe, would be no regrets for the UK, if only there were partners in the UK Government who shared our ambition and understanding of what is at stake.

I thank the First Minister. 

The next item will be the legislative consent motion on the Data Protection and Digital Information Bill, and I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Economy, Energy and Welsh Language to move the motion. Jeremy Miles. 

Thank you, Llywydd. I move the motion regarding the Data Protection and Digital Information Bill put forward by the UK Government, and the way those provisions that fall within the legislative competence of the Senedd will be considered.

Through this Bill, the UK Government seeks to update and simplify the data protection framework of the UK, with the aim of reducing burdens on organisations, whilst maintaining, at the same time, high standards of data protection. Although most of this Bill is reserved, there are a number of provisions within the legislative competence of the Senedd, as has been noted in the four memoranda to the Bill. I'd like to thank the committees for their considerations of those memoranda that have been laid.

Llywydd, whilst I welcome the Bill overall, it's disappointing that we are in a position where the UK Government is seeking consent from the Senedd to a Bill that fails to reflect the legislative competence of the Senedd and the principles of devolution. This is particularly disappointing given the broadly shared agreement on the need for Senedd consent. These failures are clearly demonstrated in the approach that the UK Government has taken in respect of the new national underground asset register provisions, introduced into the Bill last November. 

As currently drafted, these provisions will remove existing regulation-making powers under section 79 of the New Roads and Street Works Act 1991 from the Welsh Ministers, transferring them to UK Ministers. I am sure that Members will agree that the removal of a devolved executive function from Welsh Ministers without agreement, and without even prior consultation, is completely unacceptable.

Extensive discussions at both ministerial and official level have been held with the UK Government since the Bill's introduction, focused on the devolved implications of a number of provisions within the Bill. These discussions concluded with the offer from the UK Government of a package of targeted amendments that they would be willing to make, should Welsh Ministers deem them sufficient to recommend consent to the Bill in the Senedd. 

However, the proposed amendments represented a significant lack of movement by the UK Government beyond the offer of a number of consultation provisions, with the UK Government continuing to pursue taking powers in devolved areas without even a consent role for Welsh Ministers. We have long disputed the UK Government's suggested use of consultation provisions as a form of constitutional safeguard in place of binding consent mechanisms. This is a position that both the Welsh Government and the Senedd have consistently taken in respect of UK Bills—a position, incidentally, that the UK Government is well aware of. As such, Ministers do not consider the proposed amendments to be sufficient and therefore we do not recommend the Senedd consent to this Bill, as set out in the supplementary legislative consent memorandum laid on 16 April. Furthermore, the approach taken by the UK Government in putting forward these proposed amendments as a final package on the condition that we must agree to all of them, or none would be tabled, is entirely contrary to the principle of the Sewel convention that Parliaments should not legislate on devolved matters without the consent of the Senedd. 

We remain of the view that amendments should be made to this Bill that respect the legislative competence of the Senedd, that respect the executive functions of the Welsh Ministers, and that reflect the existing devolution settlement. We have also been absolutely clear with the UK Government that amendments should be made to the new national underground asset register provisions to ensure that Welsh Ministers retain their existing regulation-making powers. 

Whilst the current approach of the UK Government is not consistent with the principles of devolution, there is still time for the UK Government to address our concerns in order that we can achieve a satisfactory resolution that would then enable us to recommend the Senedd consent to the Bill. Should this happen, further amendments made to the Bill would then need to be considered by the Senedd. However, Llywydd, until that time occurs, I recommend to Members that they do not support the motion. 

The Chair of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee, Sarah Murphy. 

Diolch, Llywydd. In three out of the past four weeks, I have spoken in this Chamber as Chair of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee during legislative consent debates, such is the extent to which Bills in the UK Parliament are making provision in devolved areas. My committee has reported three times on the legislative consent memoranda laid by the Welsh Government on the Data Protection and Digital Information Bill. Our third report, on memorandum No.4, was laid yesterday afternoon, as the memorandum itself was only laid just over two weeks ago. My comments this afternoon will focus on three key issues, and I will direct Members and others to our reports for our detailed views and recommendations.

So, several provisions in the Bill confer solely upon the Secretary of State broad regulation-making powers that may be exercised in devolved areas. Others also confer equivalent delegated powers upon the Treasury. Therefore, in our latest report, we have stated our agreement with the Cabinet Secretary that such delegation is inappropriate. For example, clauses 86 and 88 confer various broad regulation-making powers on the Secretary of State and the Treasury in relation to customer data and business data. Such regulations could capture a wide array of businesses, and have the potential to impact on devolved areas, with no role for Welsh Ministers. Thank you to the Cabinet Secretary for sharing with us the exchange of letters between the Welsh and UK Governments. In one of the letters, the Minister of State makes it clear that the UK Government intends that the Bill will enable the better use of data in health and social care. This is extremely significant. Health and social care data have been listed in this letter, and our committee only became aware of it yesterday.

We have strong concerns about the constitutional impropriety of the provisions in the Bill for a national underground asset register. Through these provisions, powers currently delegated to Welsh Ministers under section 79 of the New Roads and Street Works Act 1991 are being transferred to the Secretary of State, with no reasonable justification. This amounts to the removal of a devolved Executive function. So, as a committee, we support the Cabinet Secretary’s view that this is an inappropriate reversal of devolution. In addition, these provisions in the Bill for a national underground asset register will result in the revocation of Senedd-approved legislation in the form of the Street Works (Records) (Wales) Regulations 2005. Again, this is inappropriate.

Moving on to the provisions in the Bill relating to digital verification services, on this point, we disagree with the Welsh Government’s position on the requirement for legislative consent in respect of these provisions. But this is because, while the Welsh Government has maintained from the beginning that consent was required for these provisions, in February, the UK Government wrote to the Welsh Government stating that its own devolution guidance note advised consent should be sought when provisions in one of its Bills conferred or imposed reserved functions on a devolved Welsh authority. This is despite the UK Government’s overall view that these functions are reserved and its own acknowledgement that the Senedd’s Standing Orders do not cover situations where reserved functions are conferred on devolved Welsh authorities. However, the UK Government’s devolution guidance note is not a relevant consideration for the purpose of the tests in the Senedd’s Standing Orders. Memorandum No. 4 is laid before the Senedd under Standing Order 29, and it is confusing to make reference to criteria that do not apply to the Senedd’s legislative consent process. When we asked the Welsh Government for its view on the different criteria and approaches to legislative consent that appear to be applied by the UK Government, the Welsh Government and the Senedd’s Standing Orders, we were told that the Welsh Government is committed to the Sewel convention, and, while that statement is to be welcomed, it does not offer the explanation that we hoped for. The criteria still to us remain opaque.

Finally, there are some concerns that the Bill poses a risk to the UK's current data adequacy decision. This is the pipeline through which the UK and the European Union share data. Its loss would have particular implications for Welsh trade and the economy. In memorandum No. 4, the Cabinet Secretary states that the Bill could trigger a review of the UK’s EU data adequacy status by the European Commission, and has the potential to lead to legal challenge in the Court of Justice of the European Union. As the committee with responsibility for international obligations, these views are stark and concerning, so we have asked the Cabinet Secretary if he could possibly provide more details, please.

In our most recent report, laid yesterday, we also asked the Cabinet Secretary to confirm if the Welsh Government considers the Bill should have implications for other international arrangements, such as the UK-US data bridge, established in 2023. And finally, I would like to note that the Cabinet Secretary offered more details in his opening remarks, and also thank you for your detailed correspondence with the committee throughout. Diolch.

The Chair of the Culture, Communications, Welsh Language, Sport and International Relations Committee, Delyth Jewell.

Diolch, Llywydd. Llywydd, my committee has reported on the first three memoranda for this Bill. It is with regret that I must report that time has been against us and we were not in a position to consider the fourth memorandum for a UK Bill that has serious and far-reaching implications for Wales. During our scrutiny of the Northern Ireland Protocol Bill, Members will recall that three of this Senedd's committees, including mine, emphasised the need for sufficient time for LCM scrutiny, particularly those with serious implications. Now, given the limited time available, we expected the Welsh Government to adopt a transparent and detailed approach to memoranda to assist us in our work. We've heard already that, yesterday, our committees were still receiving new information from the Welsh Government. Whilst we welcome this effort to share information, this situation is illustrative of the limitations of the consent process. That we receive information on the day of the reporting deadline and a day before today’s debate is surely undesirable for all of us.

Now, from the start, the Welsh Government has warned that this Bill poses a risk to the UK’s EU data adequacy decision. This crucial status, secured during Brexit, ensures the free flow of data between the UK and EU until June 2025. Now, whilst the Welsh Government could have provided a more detailed assessment on this calculation, as a committee, we nevertheless take any concerns raised about UK-EU relations extremely seriously. That the Welsh Government believes the Bill could adversely affect the UK’s data adequacy and, more broadly, the UK and Wales’s EU relations, is something that should concern all of us.

Llywydd, my committee is at the forefront of the Senedd’s work in finding the hinge points of our post-Brexit relationship with the EU. Now, we truly welcome the inclusion of analyses of the trade and co-operation agreement for this Bill, a commitment that was secured by our committee's international relations annual report, and that has borne fruit for this Bill. At the end of March, the European Commission noted four pieces of UK legislation that could affect the TCA’s operation. This Bill is one of them, alongside the Retained EU Law (Revocation and Reform) Act 2023 and the Safety of Rwanda (Asylum and Immigration) Act 2024. Now, were the outcome described by the Cabinet Secretary in memorandum No. 4 to materialise—were it to materialise—this Bill could lead to enforcement action by the EU’s Court of Justice. That would inevitably represent a serious setback in UK-EU relations.

During our Wales-Ireland inquiry, our Irish friends and neighbours told us that co-operation is inevitable; co-operation is a virtue and one which we take for granted at our peril. Llywydd, our porous boundaries demand co-operation, a series of choices to build and to nurture positive relations. As R.F. Kuang said:

'History isn’t a premade tapestry that we’ve got to suffer, a closed world with no exit. We can form it. Make it. We just have to choose to make it.' 

We discussed this Bill at committee, but I was really alerted to having the national underground asset register being added to it, and, apparently, it was added at the very last minute, so I was a bit concerned why it was added last minute. I have written, but I haven't had a response from the Secretary of State.

Our underground infrastructure is hugely complicated. It's a mix of pipes and cables, and it's managed by local authority street works teams, so, if any maintenance work needs to be done, they need to be consulted. I just know, from being a previous cabinet member for highways, how important it is and how important that we retain that right to take part in planning decisions regarding what's actually underground our roads. So, I'm really, really worried about this, that this would go to the Secretary of State for the roll-out and decision making when, really, it should be at a really local level, the underground asset register. And I know we do need it, but we need to be involved with every decision-making part of it, so I would encourage you to vote against this. Thank you.

The Cabinet Secretary to reply.

Thank you, Llywydd, and thank you to all those who've contributed to the debate, including the committee Chairs.

In the contributions, Members have sought clarity and insight on two or three further areas, so I hope it will assist Members to know that it is our view that, in relation to data adequacy, a number of provisions in the Bill are considered to be challenging and do have the potential of a review by the commission, or legal challenge in the Court of Justice of the European Union, and these include provisions that are seen to weaken the independence of the Information Commissioner and undermine individual rights. To the point that Sarah Murphy was making in her contribution, the Bill amends the statutory definition of personal data, and there is a risk that a broader range of health and social care data will be included in the scope of free trade agreements. We are aware, as Members will generally be aware, that the public have concerns around their health data being used for anything other than the provision of care, and including this data within the scope of free trade agreements could undermine public trust. The UK maintaining its data adequacy is, of course, vital, and I'm disappointed with the ongoing refusal of the UK Government to share a copy of its risk assessment on this with us, and I'll be reviewing the finding of the House of Lords’s European Affairs Committee inquiry on data adequacy, which is currently under way.

Delyth Jewell asked about the level of detail in LCMs, and I accept that there is a clear tension between the two-week period that the Standing Order provides for provision of LCMs and the ability to provide detailed information. This is, I think, a feature of the fact that the process to which we have to respond is one that takes no regard of the Senedd's own timetable and is focused very much on activities in the UK Parliament. The example that Carolyn Thomas gave was very relevant to this, in relation to the underground asset register provisions. The UK Government did not make us aware of the proposed changes to Welsh Ministers’ powers until the day before the amendments were tabled in Parliament, which, I'm sure Members will agree, is incredibly disappointing.

Finally, on the point that Delyth Jewell made in relation to the TCA and the assessment that her committee has undertaken, in my view the changes to the UK data protection framework proposed in the Bill, as it's drafted, are, I think, unlikely to impact on the UK’s compliance with the TCA, because the data protection provisions are generally broad and high level. However, we are concerned that the Bill may signal the beginning of the UK’s divergence from the data protection regime that is currently in place across the EU and, needless to say, this would have the potential to undermine data protection provisions in the TCA across a range of policy areas and the potential loss, as a consequence, of data adequacy. So, Llywydd, as a conclusion, as a result of the constitutional concerns with the Bill, I ask Members of the Senedd to not consent to this Bill. Diolch yn fawr.

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There are objections. We will therefore defer voting until voting time, which is now. And unless three Members wish for the bell to be rung, I will proceed directly to the vote.

The only vote this afternoon is on the LCM on the Data Protection and Digital Information Bill, and I call for a vote on the motion tabled in the name of Jeremy Miles. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 14, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore, the motion is not agreed.

That concludes our proceedings for today.