Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru

Good afternoon and welcome to this Plenary session. The first item on our agenda this afternoon is questions to the First Minister, and the first question is from Natasha Asghar. 

Llywydd, our approach to e-cigarettes is set out in our tobacco control strategy and its delivery plan, published in July of this year. As set out in the plan, we will commission an evidence-based review of the use of e-cigarettes in Wales.

Thank you, First Minister. In my region of south-east Wales, the highest smoking rate is actually in Merthyr Tydfil, where 23 per cent of adults are smokers. This is higher than both the Welsh and UK averages. If Wales is to achieve its smoke-free target by 2030, then the rate of quitting will need to increase by 40 per cent. A recent study by Queen Mary University, supported by Cancer Research UK, found that vaping could be twice as effective as traditional nicotine replacement treatments in helping smokers quit. Several reviews, including those from Public Health England and the UK Royal College of Physicians, have found there are no identified health risks of passive vaping by bystanders. The current evidence therefore does not justify bans in public places of tobacco-free vaping. First Minister, do you agree it is critical that smokers understand that switching to vape products is likely to significantly reduce their risk of harm compared to smoking conventional cigarettes, and what is your Government doing to encourage the NHS in Wales to work with vaping companies to supply their products to those who wish to quit smoking to help you meet your target of a smoke-free Wales by 2030?

Well, Llywydd, let me first of all pay tribute to all of those who have been involved in the smoking cessation campaigns in Wales in recent times. In 2012, we set a target for reducing smoking in Wales—the prevalence of it—to 20 per cent by 2016. We exceeded that; we got to 18 per cent by 2015. We then set another target to get to 16 per cent by 2020. We exceeded that again, and the current level of smoking prevalence in Wales is the lowest it has been ever since these records began, at 13 per cent. So, we undoubtedly have had a very significant success. It's one of the great social changes of my lifetime, I think, to have seen the way in which smoking prevalence has been reduced. 

Where e-cigarettes lead to people ceasing the use of tobacco, then, undoubtedly, e-cigarettes are less harmful than conventional cigarettes. Sadly, the evidence is that, for most people who use an e-cigarette, it is as well as, not instead of, a conventional cigarette. Eighty-five per cent in recent studies are dual use, and dual use, I'm afraid, does not eliminate the harm that smoking conventional cigarettes brings. In fact, it adds additional harms, particularly in relation to chronic obstructive pulmonary disease. So, on the terms that the Member put it, I agree with her—if we can persuade people to move from conventional cigarettes to e-cigarettes, they are definitely less harmful. The evidence is that we are not succeeding in doing that, and people who believe that adding an e-cigarette into the repertoire and thinking that that's helping them, I'm afraid the evidence there is that it quite definitely doesn't. 

I recall, First Minister, that you endeavoured to control vaping when you introduced the Bill in 2015, but there was no support from the Conservative benches for this measure so it had to be withdrawn. So, I'm glad to see that the tobacco control strategy recognises that vaping is a gateway into smoking, and we now have a veritable epidemic amongst young people of vaping. I just wondered what plans, if any, the Welsh Government has to really clamp down on this in schools and colleges, because, undoubtedly, the tobacco companies are using it as a way of getting people to take up smoking, which we know is so harmful. 

Well, Llywydd, Jenny Rathbone is absolutely right—one of the primary motivations for the public health Bill that failed to pass in 2016 was the desire to protect children from the gateway to nicotine addiction that is represented by the threat of e-cigarettes to children and young people. And, very sadly, the latest evidence on that is very discouraging. At a UK level, the number of children and young people reporting that they are using an e-cigarette rose from 4 per cent in 2020 to 7 per cent in 2022, and that was amongst 11 to 17-year-olds. And there is a tide across the world that is flowing even faster than that. Members here will have seen, no doubt, the advice of the US Surgeon General, providing public health advice to states across America that we must take aggressive steps—aggressive steps—to protect our children from these highly potent products. E-cigarettes contain nicotine; nicotine is highly addictive. Nicotine is particularly damaging to the developing brains of adolescents; indeed, it continues to cause harm to the brain up to the age of 25. So, whatever steps we might take to derive the public health benefits from adults who genuinely use e-cigarettes to quit conventional cigarettes, we must do everything we can to protect children from the way in which using an e-cigarette becomes an addictive tool, which then leads on to even worse consequences.

Llywydd, the unfunded tax changes in the fiscal statement will widen inequality across the United Kingdom. Areas such as Blaenau Gwent, which already face economic challenges, will be the most adversely affected.

I'm grateful to the First Minister for that. At one level, of course, it's possible to ridicule the chaos that exists in Westminster at the moment: a Prime Minister that models herself on Margaret Thatcher—the lady who is not for turning is spinning like a top, and, no, she doesn't herself know what decision she's going to take tomorrow. We know that the impact of her chaotic couple of weeks in Government has already sent the pound plummeting, the Bank of England being forced to promise to spend £65 billion just to hold the currency. We know that they are already ensuring that costs for business, for Government and for householders are rocketing. The Chancellor, in a moment of self-pity, said he'd had a tough time. Well, let me tell you, the people who've seen their mortgage rates rocketing are having a tougher time. And we know that these people, at the end of the day, still want to pay for tax cuts for the rich by cutting public services for the poor and vulnerable. First Minister, the people of Blaenau Gwent have always borne the brunt of Tory Governments in London. They've always borne the brunt of cuts to public services, cuts to benefits and lack of investment in an economy. First Minister, will the Welsh Government stand up and defend the people of Blaenau Gwent, and the people of Wales, against this chaotic regime in London?

Llywydd, of course the Welsh Government will do that, but the whole of this Senedd should do that. There are real questions for the Conservatives in this Chamber this afternoon. Do they defend the Prime Minister's wish not to increase benefits in line with inflation? What will that do to people in Blaenau Gwent, already living on bare-bones benefits, when she is prepared to lift the cap on bankers' bonuses but not prepared to provide a guarantee that the manifesto, on which those MPs were elected, that manifesto promise, she will not guarantee that that will be kept? [Interruption.] I look to you this afternoon—I look forward to hearing from the leader of the opposition when he has his chance to be on his feet rather than shouting from where he is sitting. Let him tell us this afternoon that the Conservatives in this Chamber will add their voice to Penny Mordaunt's, and other Conservative MPs, refusing to sign up to the Prime Minister's ambition to cut the benefits of people who already have almost nothing to live on. Llywydd, will they say it this afternoon? We'll say it, and other people in this Chamber will say it. Will they say this afternoon that they are not prepared—that they are not prepared—that the cost of funding unfunded tax cuts will be in cuts to public services—. Are you prepared to say this afternoon that, for people in Wales who rely on public services, teachers in the classroom, nurses in the wards, people waiting on housing lists, are you prepared to say this afternoon that you will add your voice to protect them? I see that you don't. I see that you don't. Alun Davies, I'll tell you this: this Government will raise our voice to make sure that those people are defended—people in Blaenau Gwent and people right across Wales. They will look to see whether there is any opportunity that Conservatives in Wales will do the right thing by them, but I can see already this afternoon that they're likely to wait a very long time before there's any sign of that. 

I think that's a bit rich, First Minister—you standing there and saying that, with your record on delivery in Wales—[Interruption.]

I don't think the Member has even started her question yet. Laura Anne Jones.

First Minister, do you, like me and the rest of my party, welcome the huge energy package that the UK Government have announced that will directly benefit the people, our constituents, of Blaenau Gwent? How are you going to support businesses in their fight for survival over the winter months coming?

Well, Llywydd, a fortnight ago, I welcomed the fact that there was to be help for people with their energy costs. What I don't welcome—I said it then, and I'll say it again now—is the fact that the price of that Conservative Party package will be paid in the debts that will lie with our children and our grandchildren to pick up, when there was a choice to take back the unlooked-for, enormously inflated profits being made by companies who will now see all those profits protected, protected by the public on whose shoulders the consequence of that party's decisions will be levied. I'm glad of the fact that there is help to be had; I do think that it's being done in exactly the wrong way.

The people of Blaenau Gwent and across the Valleys have suffered disproportionately from Tory misrule. This is a direct consequence of the failure or, rather, the deliberate policies of successive UK Governments that continue to funnel wealth and investment to London while communities in the south of Wales get next to nothing. The Truss Government is probably the worst yet. The Tories won a mandate based on the lie of levelling up, and now they are unashamedly doing the opposite. People in Blaenau Gwent and the Gwent Valleys are now facing gargantuan energy bills, higher prices, and rocketing mortgages and rent, as we've heard. Westminster rule means ruin for Wales. So, I'd ask you, First Minister, will you do all you can to secure every power that Wales, the Valleys and Blaenau Gwent need not only to protect ourselves now, but from future Tory Governments as well? Will you make those demands of Keir Starmer in the event of him becoming Prime Minister, and do you agree that the powers Wales needs include those over tax, welfare, justice and policing?

Well, Llywydd, Delyth Jewell makes an important point. We know from independent analysis that London and the south-east will benefit from the changes that the Liz Truss Government has introduced three times more than Wales will benefit and the north of England will benefit. Let's be clear, Llywydd: this is a Government that believes in redistribution; it believes in taking money from the poor and giving it to the rich. The idea that distribution is—[Interruption.] Of course, the figures are as plain as they possibly can be, Llywydd, and just shouting, sitting there, does not alter the fact that the top 5 per cent—this is after Liz Truss was forced to abandon her decision to abolish the 45p rate of tax—of the population will still get a quarter of all the cash gains as a result of the remaining aspects of the budget package. The richest 5 per cent of households will gain 40 times more—can you imagine that, Llywydd: the richest, top 5 per cent will gain 40 times more—than the bottom fifth of the population. It is so disgraceful that it is no wonder that that party is in complete free fall in the opinion polls. And, of course, we will use all the powers we have and the capacity we have to defend people here in Wales from this onslaught.

Questions now from the party leaders. Leader of the Welsh Conservatives, Andrew R.T. Davies.

Thank you, Presiding Officer. It's nice to see the Deputy Minister shouting from a sedentary position. I hope he speaks as loudly for his patients who are stuck on record waiting lists in his constituency, because I never hear him saying anything about that, I don't. But anytime you want to have a debate on it, Deputy Minister, I'll have that debate with you.

First Minister, you travelled to Scotland last Tuesday to meet with Nicola Sturgeon. Nicola Sturgeon has agreed to have an independent public inquiry into the COVID regulations and rules that were made in Scotland. Why is she wrong and you're right, because you're blocking one here in Wales?

Llywydd, I've explained on numerous occasions here why I believe that the answers that patients and their families in Wales deserve to get when we look back at the events of the pandemic, that those answers are best secured through a Welsh participation in a UK inquiry.

I welcome very much the fact today that the Covid-19 Bereaved Families for Justice group here in Wales has secured core participation status in front of the UK inquiry. I had written to them earlier this year supporting their application for core participation status. That will mean that they will be able to ensure that the voice of those people who are members of their group will be heard in that inquiry. I believe from the meetings I've had with them—I've met with them five times—that, unlike the leader of the opposition, they are moving on from continuing to ask for something which is not going to happen. Let me be clear about that. I've told you time and time again, there will be no inquiry of that sort here in Wales. They are moving on to put their energies and their efforts into making sure, as I want to see, that their questions are properly rehearsed, and the best answers provided in front of the Baroness Hallett inquiry.

Stop misrepresenting their view, First Minister. Only today they've repeated the request for an independent inquiry here in Wales, and through you not allowing such an inquiry to happen, they have had to accept that the UK route is the best route for them to have these explored. But I ask you again, First Minister, because you didn't address the first question: why is Nicola Sturgeon wrong in your mind, and you're right? Because she has looked at the route that the UK inquiry will undertake, and it is correct that it will look on the four-nation basis that some decisions were taken, but you made a political virtue of the point that you did things differently here in Wales. So, those decisions deserve to be looked at through the lens of a Welsh public inquiry. So, like the COVID-bereaved families, why don't you allow such an inquiry to happen? And if you won't, will you answer my first question to you: why is Nicola Sturgeon wrong, and you're right?

Well, Llywydd, the Member knows perfectly well that the decision is made, there will be no Welsh separate inquiry and, instead, the answers to the questions that people quite rightly want to see here in Wales will be properly, fully, and best answered by the inquiry that his Prime Minister established, and which I was able to discuss with Downing Street on a series of occasions to make sure that Welsh interests were fully represented in the terms of reference and in the way that the inquiry will be conducted. That will ensure that the best possible answers are provided. That's why I believe that to be the right course of action. The First Minister of Scotland must speak for herself. I see that Lady Poole, the chair of the independent Scottish inquiry, has resigned. Any idea that everything in Scotland is completely marvellous because they've agreed to an inquiry would not stand up to a moment's examination.

I'd tread carefully on saying that's she's resigned and trying to use that in a political forum. I understand that she's resigned for personal reasons, which does happen, First Minister, and I'm not trying to say anything to the contrary about the integrity of any inquiry. I happen to believe that an independent inquiry here in Wales, but also on a UK level, would speed up the process to get the answers that the COVID-bereaved families require, rather than get it pushed into the long grass. Now, you could work positively with the families, with all the interested parties here in Wales, in allowing such an inquiry. But because you say 'no', we have to accept it? Well, on these benches, we won't accept it, because, ultimately, the scrutiny, the torch of scrutiny needs to be placed on the decisions that all the Ministers took, sitting around that bench. So, whilst you might decree that there is not going to be a Welsh COVID inquiry, I have to tell you that the weight of public opinion and the weight of professional opinion here in Wales wants to see that independent inquiry. I will not rest until we have that independent inquiry, despite what you might try to say to the contrary, First Minister.

Well, Llywydd, there is the impotence of opposition. The leader of the opposition can of course go on making his case for as long and as loudly as he likes. In the meantime, the world has moved on. There is an inquiry, a fully constituted inquiry, set up by a Conservative Government at Westminster in which there will be full participation by patients and families in Wales, in which all the actions of the Welsh Government and of other public authorities in Wales—[Interruption.]

Can we allow the First Minister to finish his answer, please? Oh, that was the end. Sorry. Right. I think I was failing to hear him, actually, because there was quite a bit of noise.

Leader of Plaid Cymru, Adam Price.

Diolch, Llywydd. In your discussions with the Scottish First Minister last week, it was reported that you focused on the cost-of-living crisis. It's good to see that you, at least, First Minister, are prepared to talk with the SNP even if Keir Starmer is not. Now, yesterday, the SNP Government published emergency legislation to freeze rents across Scotland, backdated to 6 September, running initially until the end of March, with the potential to be extended. The legislation also bans evictions of tenants who fall into arrears, both ideas originally proposed by the Labour Party, which begs the question: if they're good enough for Labour in opposition in Wales, why aren't these measures good enough, so far at least, for Labour in Government here?

Well, Llywydd, we will look carefully at the proposals in Scotland, of course. I've had an opportunity to look at them briefly this morning. Let's be clear about what the proposals actually are. There is a rent freeze for social renting tenants in Scotland. That already exists here in Wales. All those rents are fixed and will not rise before the end of this financial year, so there is no difference between us there.

The rent freeze in Scotland applies only to existing tenants, so any flat that becomes vacant and is let to a new tenant, there is no rent freeze at all there, nor is there a freeze on costs that landlords can legitimately claim. So, if a landlord can demonstrate that they have to meet increased mortgage rates, they will be able to increase rents for existing tenants. If they can demonstrate that they have extra insurance costs, they will be able to pass those on to existing tenants. If there are rises in the service charges that landlords have to cover, they will be able to pass those on to existing tenants as well. So, let's be clear what this rent freeze actually is. It's a rent freeze that doesn't cover anybody taking up a tenancy, and for existing tenancies there is a whole series of ways in which their rents will be able to go up anyway.

And then a ban—a ban on evictions. Well, not for tenants with significant rent arrears; not for people who have anti-social behaviour; not where landlords can demonstrate that they are suffering financial hardship; and neither does the ban on evictions prevent a landlord from selling their property.

When I was in Scotland last week, I was being told about two great anxieties about this piece of legislation before it was published. First of all, the stampede to evict existing tenants, so that the changes in the law could be evaded by landlords in that way, and secondly, the risk that there will be a collapse in the amount of property available in the private rented sector, with landlords deciding to sell up rather than to rent, and that then exacerbating changes that are about to happen in the housing market. The Member will be very well aware that the consequence of the Conservative package is that mortgage rates are likely to rise to 6 per cent, and that house prices are likely to fall by up to 15 per cent. To engineer a situation in which a flood of properties is put onto a falling market in that way is hardly likely to be to the benefit of people looking for properties to rent.

So, I will look more carefully than I have been able to so far at the Scottish proposals, but any idea that they are a panacea that we should just pick up and put in place here in Wales, I don't think that will stand up to examination for long.

Nobody, First Minister, is arguing that they are a panacea; they need to be implemented alongside a whole range of measures. They are temporary measures because we are facing an emergency. Winter is almost upon us. Why do you think, First Minister, that Shelter in Wales is calling for a rent freeze, is calling for a moratorium? Why do you think that the Kerslake commission, led by the former head of the civil service, who is a supporter of your party, their commission on homelessness has called for a ban on evictions in winter? In France, they ban evictions every winter as a sign of a civilised society.

In relation to what you said, by the way, there's a cap; even in exceptional circumstances where landlords can ask for some increase, there's a cap of 3 per cent. And they can only ask for a maximum of 50 per cent of the specified cost. So, let's be clear about what the Scottish Government is calling for. And if the First Minister is arguing that we should go further in Wales in relation to the points that he has made, then certainly let's have that discussion, but surely we should be introducing a rent freeze and a moratorium to protect tenants this winter in Wales.

Well, Llywydd, Shelter is not calling for a rent freeze in Wales, and the reason that they are not calling for a rent freeze is that they recognise, I believe, the potential unintended consequences for tenants when that happens. I think the leader of Plaid Cymru has just conceded that the Scottish Government's proposals don't amount to a blanket rent freeze in the way that it might be being reported. On 1 December, we will introduce a six-month 'no fault' notice for new tenancies, as far as eviction is concerned. We're consulting on extending all of that to existing tenancies, and we will bring forward a White Paper, as we have promised under our co-operation agreement, to look at how rent controls might be introduced in Wales in a way that does not lead to the unintended possibility that it will make the supply of rented properties in Wales go down just at a point when the demand for properties in Wales can already not be easily met from the existing supply. 

It begs the question: why did we introduce a moratorium during COVID on evictions? There are certain circumstances—emergencies, crises—where it is necessary to bring in temporary measures, and I'm afraid that many, many people are making these arguments in the housing sector, not just in Scotland, not just in Wales, but across the whole of Europe. 

Can I turn to one of the unfunded Tory tax cuts that still remain? Of course, the reversing of the national insurance increase means the abandonment of the proposed new health and social care levy, which was meant to provide a sustainable basis to fund social care into the future. I'm sure you believe that the decades-long failure by Westminster to face up to the problems in the social care sector has left us with a huge legacy of a crisis in that sector. But, doesn't this place an onus now on us in Wales again to find a Welsh solution? Specifically, does Westminster's abdication of responsibility mean that we should look again at the proposals put forward by Gerry Holtham for instituting a Wales-based social care levy?

Well, Llywydd, it must be nearly a decade now since I first discussed with UK Conservative Ministers their plans to implement the Dilnot review. That never happened. More years went by. We did appear to reach a point under the last Prime Minister where there was to be a specific levy in order to create, as the then Prime Minister claimed, a sustainable future for social care and to deal with the financial consequences in the lives of individuals. Now that's gone as well. So, I agree with the leader of Plaid Cymru: that means we have to go back and revisit some of the work that was carried out here in Wales to see whether there is a Wales-only solution to this matter.

It is very complicated. I know that he will know this very well. The interface between the powers that we have in Wales and the charges we could levy against the powers that lie in Westminster, and particularly the decisions that are made in relation to the benefits system, mean that designing a levy in Wales that does not lead to Welsh citizens paying twice, paying a levy in Wales and finding that money taken away from Wales by decisions made in Westminster, designing a system that can offer us a guarantee that that cannot happen, is itself fiendishly complicated. But a lot of work has been done already, and in the light of what has happened across the border, and in particular in the light of what I believe now are likely to be significant further cuts to public expenditure here in Wales, of course we need to go back and revisit the work that we’ve already undertaken.

I thank Cefin Campbell for the question. The Welsh Government has invested more than £1.6 billion this year on targeted cost-of-living support and universal programmes to put money back in people's pockets and to help alleviate this crisis. This includes, for example, support to those living off the gas grid to purchase LPG or bulk oil.

Thank you very much. As you know, homes across mid and west Wales are more reliant on off-grid fuel such as oil and biomass than other parts of Wales. In Carmarthenshire, 39 per cent of homes are not connected to the gas grid; 55 per cent in Powys, and 74 per cent in Ceredigion. This compares with an average of 19 per cent across Wales. Unlike gas, there has been no cap on the cost of this fuel. One constituent has contacted me to say that the price of his oil has increased. He paid some £269 for 1,000 litres of oil a year ago, but that’s increased to £939 this year. And in the disastrous mini-budget of last week, the Tories announced £100, which is a pittance that won’t do anything other than scratch the surface for these kinds of households. And although, First Minister, we welcome the additional £200 that the Welsh Government has provided, I do hope you realise that this is not adequate either in rural areas. Therefore, will you commit to looking at what additional support you can provide to support these households?

To start, I do recognise everything that the Member has said about the situation in west Wales, and how much people rely on different ways to heat their homes and who aren’t having any support from the Westminster Government. We are doing many things already. We have extended the discretionary assistance fund to give more help to people who depend on that as way to buy their fuel or energy, in the way that Cefin Campbell set out. We have a new scheme and that was opened at the end of September, with £4 million to the Fuel Bank Foundation. That’s going to provide support to people who depend on prepayment meters, but also will provide support to those buying oil in the way the Member described. And also, of course, we have provided funding to local authorities, on top of the funding that they’ve had to distribute to every household who pay council tax, funding that they can use in the appropriate way for their areas. We were very pleased to see in the scheme that Powys County Council has just announced that they are going to use that additional funding to help children and to help disabled people, but they’re also going to provide—. I have this in English here.

They'll provide £150 to all residents who live in homes that have off-grid fuel supply.

That's something that is great to see and that will help the people living in Powys in the areas that the Member represents. We're willing to consider whether there is more that we can do, but we are trying to do many things already.

First Minister, people in rural areas spend 10 per cent more of their income on fuel for their cars, so can you tell me what the Welsh Government is doing to improve transport connectivity in rural areas so people don't have to rely on fossil fuels?

There are a whole series of things that the Welsh Government has done over many years to invest in such schemes in all parts of Wales, including, of course, rural Wales. People who live in the Member's constituency will be worrying less about the things that he's raised with me today than whether they will have less to live on next year as a result of the decisions that his Government is about to make.

Jane Dodds—[Interruption.] Jane Dodds.

Diolch, Llywydd. Good afternoon, First Minister.

Thank you to Cefin Campbell for raising this issue, and thank you too for discussing Powys council.

It's now a Liberal Democrat council that is making sensible decisions on behalf of its people, unlike the previous administration, the Conservative and independent administration. Can I just focus on one aspect, please, of our rural housing stock? Many of them are very old and are subject to poor insulation, so I just wanted to focus in on insulation. The Welsh Government's Warm Homes programme is running at a very slow pace. We reckon it will take about 135 years to insulate homes across Wales in fuel poverty. So, my question to you is: what can the Welsh Government do to accelerate the Warm Homes programme across Wales so that constituents like the ones living in Mid and West Wales are actually protected against this horrendous situation that they're facing? Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Of course, I recognise exactly the position that Jane Dodds sets out. It's always been a challenge for the Warm Homes programme to find effective ways in which you can insulate properties that don't have the characteristics that most properties do where you can put insulation between cavity walls and so on. We are redesigning the Warm Homes programme, we will be soon looking for the next round of bids from people who will deliver that programme on the ground, and she can be sure that the needs of people who live in rural Wales, where the methods of construction used in those homes produce particular challenges, will be well known and well highlighted to those who will put bids in to the Welsh Government to run the scheme on our behalf. 

We have committed to deliver 20,000 new low-carbon homes for rent in the social sector, providing record levels of funding to do so. The first statistical release demonstrating progress towards this target is expected later this year.

I thank the First Minister for his answer. I'm sure you agree with me, First Minister, that it's really important that people, particularly younger people, can get on the housing ladder and afford to buy their own home. One symptom of increased house prices that can make it unaffordable is the lack of supply in the market in the first place. Swansea Council, in 2019-20, promised to build 1,360 homes; they built 397. In 2020-21, they promised to build 1,654; they built 446. I heard from his answer to Adam Price earlier that he likes to blame others for the problems in the housing market. Well, the thing he does control is the number of houses being built, and when you're only building a quarter of the number that you've promised, there is no wonder that house prices are expensive in Wales. So, how is the Welsh Government encouraging councils like Swansea Council to get a move on and build the houses they promised they would?

First of all, house prices in Wales are less expensive than in most other parts of the United Kingdom, not more expensive as Mr Giffard appeared to believe. There are a series of reasons why there are new obstacles in the path of building the number of houses that we need to see here in Wales, both houses for social renting and houses that are built for commercial sale. Brexit means—[Interruption.] Yes, I know. It's such a sigh, isn't it, because every time you tell these people the truth, they want to roll their eyes around their head as though the truth means nothing to them at all. It is a simple truth that, for the people we rely upon in construction, the tap on those people coming into the United Kingdom was turned off by Brexit. That's why your Government—your Government, another u-turn—[Interruption.] I know. Listen carefully; I know it's hard to keep up with them. Another u-turn on behalf of your Government is to reverse what they've said on controlling immigration into this country. Why are they having to do that? Because the decisions that flowed from the Brexit decision mean that we have a labour shortage in the construction industry.

We have supply-side constraints in the construction industry. Eighty per cent of timber that is used in constructing Welsh homes comes from Europe. As a result of your policies, there are new barriers in getting those things, and there are supply-chain problems that builders face. And they are about to face the biggest blow of all. House builders borrow money in order to construct their homes. They're now going to be spending 6 per cent to borrow that money, where, a year ago, they were able to borrow it for 1 per cent. I agree with what Mr Giffard said at the beginning: we need a greater supply of homes here in Wales. Why then would people think kindly of a Government that erects barrier after barrier after barrier to achieving that end? 

Swansea Council was never going to build 1,600 houses of its own. That would be more than they've built in the last 30 years. What they were relying upon is the private sector to build, and the private sector only builds when it can make a profit. The problem we have at the moment is, with interest rates going up, the private sector cannot make profits on these houses, therefore they've scaled back the number of houses they're building. Does the First Minister agree that what we need is lower interest rates, and that we need an economic position on which we can have people able to afford to buy houses? Andrew Davies was right: do away with planning and let people build, and you will have houses built. The Vale of Glamorgan will be full of houses from Cowbridge down. The Vale of Clwyd will be full of houses in the more affluent areas. Gower will be full of houses. I don't think anybody on our benches would want to see that.

First of all, I agree with the points about economic stability that Mike Hedges made. That's the way in which the long-term investment you'll need if you're building houses can be secured. But he makes a very important final point. In my own constituency of Cardiff West, a town the size of Carmarthen is being built in the north-west of Cardiff. That was opposed every single step of the way by Conservative members of Cardiff Council. I don't remember speeches from them telling us to tear up the planning rules so that those houses could be built ever faster. But, this afternoon, we appear to have some offers on the table. We appear to have an offer from the Member for Aberconwy that she'd be happy for planning rules to be torn up in her constituency so that housing can be built in all sorts of places—I look forward to hearing her defend that—and, as Mike Hedges said, a voice from the Vale of Glamorgan looking forward to an explosion of house building without any planning constraints there too.

Health boards plan, deploy and manage their workforce to meet population needs. E-rostering solutions have been implemented across NHS Wales to support the effective deployment of staff. 

Thank you, First Minister. Unlike many other professions, those who work within the health service and have direct patient contact have to be mindful of the impact that their annual leave has on those whom they care for, often having to plan and arrange annual leave months or even years in advance. Indeed, needing to take sick leave or annual leave at short notice very often translates to patient appointments being cancelled. This is not only frustrating for patients who may themselves have taken annual leave to attend their appointment and will now go back on to a waiting list, but it also means that healthcare professionals lack any flexibility and have to make difficult family decisions—having to miss school plays or sports days, for example. This manifests itself either in poorer working environments when compared to other professions or in healthcare professionals choosing locum positions that have the required flexibility, instead of salaried NHS positions. This is, ultimately, more costly for the NHS. Whilst there may be departments that have good rota systems, I know of many that do not, and this is an issue that has been raised continually with me by healthcare professionals, who struggle to get enough flexibility in work to meet life's demands. Will you agree with me, First Minister, that this shows how the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 is not being effectively applied and that more needs to be done to help provide better working conditions for our healthcare professionals? Thank you.

Llywydd, I agree with a great deal of what Joel James has just said. As I've explained a number of times on the floor of the Chamber, the NHS continues to have to deal with the COVID impact, with just under 1,000 members of staff not in work today; around 600 to 700 of them are actually ill with COVID themselves and around 300 or so are not in work because they've been in contact with somebody. All of that happens at short notice. And when you're dealing with 1,000, the sudden inability of people to be in the workplace undoubtedly makes the business of managing the workforce, and the impact on patients that flows from it, a challenge.

I recognise the points that the Member makes about some of the factors that pull people into working as locums or in agency arrangements because of the additional flexibility that that allows them, over and above people who are on fixed-term contracts. During the pandemic, we were able to introduce some short-term flexibilities into the way people manage their annual leave, with greater carry-overs and paying people for annual leave days when they simply weren't able to take them. But, I'll ask my officials to look carefully at the points the Member has made this afternoon in case there's anything further that we may be able to draw from them.

The First Minister knows that I've been raising concerns recently about staffing at Ysbyty Gwynedd, and rotas there clearly continue to be a problem. One recent e-mail from staff refers to the Hergest mental health unit, with staff morale at an all-time low, poor recruitment and retention, high sickness and poor working conditions. The result: more and more use of agency staff. When will the Welsh Government really get to grips with this unsustainable and expensive overreliance on agency workers and the rota difficulties that that perpetuates? This is resource that should be spent on supporting and improving working conditions for staff at Ysbyty Gwynedd and hospitals the length and breadth of Wales.

Well, Llywydd, I agree that I would rather have people working directly as employees of the NHS, or in bank arrangements under the control of the NHS, than people working in agency arrangements. In the end, these are individuals making decisions in their own lives. You cannot direct people as to how they would themselves choose to organise their own employment arrangements.

The way the Welsh Government has attempted to make a difference is both in changing the rules—we have a new rules system that makes it more attractive for people to take part in bank arrangements and less attractive for people to be in agencies—and by increasing the number of staff available. There's been a 44 per cent growth in nursing, midwifery and health visitors here in Wales over the period of devolution; we need to grow that further. For each of the last seven years, we have increased the number of nurses and midwives in training here in Wales. When we succeed in getting those people into the workplace, then we will be in a position where we can make working arrangements in the NHS effective so that the attractions of moving to become an agency employee will be lessened and we'll be able to lessen our reliance on those arrangements in return.

Llywydd, I thank Vikki Howells for that. Boosting the most generous childcare offer in the United Kingdom, we announced last week almost £100 million to support the expansion of Flying Start childcare to support investments in improvements and maintenance of childcare buildings and funding to support improved Welsh language provision. Cynon Valley residents will benefit from every aspect of this package.

Thank you for that answer, First Minister. Across Cynon Valley, constituents frequently tell me how important the provision of good quality, locally accessible childcare is to allow them to progress their own careers and contribute to family finances. The significant additional funding of £100 million for childcare settings that was announced last week will be warmly welcomed by families and by childcare providers alike, as further evidence that our Welsh Labour Government is on the side of ordinary, working-class people, unlike their Tory counterparts in Westminster. First Minister, how will the Welsh Government ensure that information about the funding on offer is communicated to childcare settings so that uptake can be assured?

I thank Vikki Howells for that important point that she makes. There are over 200 childcare settings in Cynon Valley constituency alone. The good news is that, because we have extended the 100 per cent rate relief for registered childcare premises to the end of March 2025, we have a direct line of communication with those settings, because they benefit from that scheme as well. Therefore, we're in a good position to be able to make sure that those settings are aware, particularly of the £70 million in capital funding, which means that premises can be extended or improved, because we have a shared ambition, set out in the co-operation agreement, to increase the supply and to lower the age range for the childcare offer so that children from the age of two onwards are able to benefit from it here in Wales. If we're to succeed in that ambition, we don't simply have to find the money for it, we have to find the staff to do it, and that's particularly true looking at the growth in Welsh-medium provision that we want to see, and we have to have the premises that that extra provision can be carried out in, as well. That is why, in the £100 million that we announced last week, £70 million of it is in capital grants, £26 million is revenue, to support the additional places, and nearly £4 million is set aside specifically to improve Welsh-medium provision. All of that will be to the benefit of residents in the Member's constituency. 

Llywydd, I have had several conversations with the new Secretary of State for Wales on this and other matters.

Thank you, First Minister. First Minister, I read this morning that you still haven't received a phone call from the UK Prime Minister, but I know that she's been very busy recently, particularly with her u-turns, in destroying the economy, threatening to cut benefits and dealing with prominent members of the Cabinet, such as your new friend, the Secretary of State for Wales, who said today that he disagreed with many of her policies. In January, First Minister, you announced a new inter-governmental agreement with the UK Government. The Counsel General was very confident that this would improve co-operation between Welsh Government and UK Government. We haven't seen any signal of that as of yet, so when will this new plan be implemented?

Llywydd, what Rhys ab Owen said remains true. I haven't heard anything from the new Prime Minister, I haven't had a phone call or an e-mail—nothing at all. We do have a new scheme, a scheme that we had agreed with the Scottish Government, the Northern Ireland Government and the Westminster Government. The last phone call that I had with Boris Johnson when he was Prime Minister, during that conversation he was talking about an invitation that was going to be sent to us to meet in London under the auspices of the new scheme that we had agreed. So, I'm looking forward to having the opportunity to speak to the new Prime Minister.

In the meantime, as I said, I've had a number of opportunities to speak with Sir Robert Buckland, and I'm looking forward to building on the constructive relationship that we want to see with him.

And finally, question 8, Laura Anne Jones. 

Llywydd, while headline data reveals a gender gap, these mask a more complex position at a subject level. This Government's commitment is to ensure that every person in Wales has high aspirations and a fair and equal opportunity to reach their fullest potential, through providing a series of different and accessible pathways to learning.

First Minister, recently, a report was released in the House of Commons library showing that white, working-class males are least likely to attend university within the UK. After some digging into Welsh figures, I found that the figures show that Wales's gender divide in this regard, on average, is worse than both the UK and English averages. And, within this divide, white students face the largest gender disparity in attending university, both in Wales and the whole of the UK. Wales's gender disparity is 6 per cent wider than the national average. First Minister, more students are winning university places in every demographic in the UK except for white males, which has decreased by 10 per cent in the last eight years. It is now imperative that we shed some light on this issue and look into the root causes of why one particular group of people in society are getting left behind. We cannot and should not consign a generation of white, working-class young men to the dustbin of history in the name of diversity, or anything else, quite frankly. So, First Minister, what is your Government doing to ensure that this inequality isn't exacerbated in the coming years, and will you agree to setting up an investigation into the root causes of this crisis?

Well, Llywydd, I deprecate the Member's willingness to turn every single issue, no matter how serious, into a form of culture war. There really is no need whatsoever to do that; it's a serious issue—it deserved a better question than you managed to provide this afternoon. And, as I said, behind the headlines of these figures is a great deal more complexity than the Member was prepared to admit. There are a whole series of subjects where young men, including young, white men, exceed the number of women studying those subjects at universities. She didn't manage to mention that. The Conservative Party this afternoon, Llywydd, is certainly not in a listening mood, is it? It thinks that the way to cover over their deep embarrassments is just to keep talking, despite the answers that are being provided to them. I'm trying to explain—[Interruption.]

It is important that we all hear the First Minister's answers, and I would like to hear them as well, please.

I'm trying to explain to the Member that the issue that she's identified is a proper one; it deserves proper consideration and to not try to turn it into some form of foolish culture war. Because, underneath the headline, the picture is a good deal more complex than she suggested. Some subjects have more men studying them, some subjects have more women studying them; it depends what you count in as an undergraduate degree before you reach the percentages, and that's not the same in different parts of the United Kingdom. So, her comparisons between different places don't stand up once you begin to look at it, and it doesn't take into account other opportunities that people have in different parts of the United Kingdom. Our degree apprenticeship programme will not be counted in the figures that the Member has suggested this afternoon, and yet, we have succeeded there in attracting people from disadvantaged communities to study through the apprenticeship route that simply isn't available in other parts of the country. I agree with her that this is a serious matter that deserves serious consideration, but serious consideration does not mean reducing it to the sloganising that she offered us this afternoon.

I thank the First Minister.

Item 2 this afternoon is the business statement and announcement, and I call on the Trefnydd, Lesley Griffiths. 

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. There are three changes to this week's business. The statement on regional economic development has been extended to 45 minutes. Later this afternoon, the Minister for Climate Change will make a statement on biodiversity, and tomorrow, questions to the Senedd Commission have been reduced to 10 minutes. Draft business for the next three weeks is set out on the business statement and announcement, which can be found amongst the meeting papers available to Members electronically. 

Today, Trefnydd, is the start of Libraries Week across Wales and the whole of the United Kingdom, and I'm sure that you'll want to join with me in thanking the staff and everyone who engages in supporting our local libraries across Wales for everything that they do. I visited Colwyn Bay library yesterday; I met with the staff there, Morag Wight and Eunice Roberts, and wanted to extend my thanks to them for all that they do in the community, and, of course, to get across the point that libraries are much more than just books these days. In that particular library, there's a banking hub for Barclays, they help people to make their blue badge application forms and with other things that they need to take up with the local authority, and, of course, they play host to children in the summer with reading activities, and older people in the winter who just need to get out and have some ability to socialise with their clubs. So, can I ask for a statement from the Government on what it's doing to promote the work of libraries across Wales, so that we can have more people take advantage of these wonderful community assets on their doorstep?

Secondly, can I call for an update from the Minister with responsibility for veterans, the Deputy Minister, who's thankfully sat in the Chamber to hear this call? I know that we usually have a statement from the Minister around Remembrance Week, and we're always very grateful for that. But I do think, given the appointment of the Veterans' Commissioner for Wales earlier this year, that, probably, we can take stock earlier than in the middle of November to have a look at the engagement that's been taking place between the office of the veterans' commissioner and indeed, our new veterans' Minister, who is our Welsh MP for Wrexham, Sarah Atherton, a former veteran herself, who's no doubt going to bring some great enthusiasm and experience to that particular role. So, could we have an update from the Minister, in her responsibilities around the veteran community, on the engagement with the UK Government on that important issue?

Thank you. I certainly join with you in celebrating our libraries right across Wales. They should be very much treasured, I think, and continue to be very well used. And as you say, they provide so much more than they used to when—I was going to say 'when we were young', but certainly when I was young and it was just books, and they obviously do so much and are very, very valued in our communities. 

In relation to your second question, I think probably next month will be the first time that—8 November the Deputy Minister is telling me—she will be bringing forward a statement in relation to our veterans, and I know she has met with the new commissioner. 

Good afternoon, Trefnydd. I suspect you know what I'm going to be asking you, but it's with regard to the animal welfare plan. I wonder if you could bring forward a statement, particularly looking at the issue of greyhounds. You'll know that between 2018 and 2021, 2,000 greyhounds died in racing. And you'll know this is an issue that many of us across the Siambr have been raising. The other development is that, only last week, three very, very important charities in the animal welfare field, the Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals, the Dogs Trust and Blue Cross announced, at long last, after a lengthy consultation, that they were committed to a ban on greyhound racing. So, therefore, Trefnydd, I wonder if you could tell us a little bit more about the timetable of when you're going to be bringing forward that plan, and also what your ideas may be around whether we can move in Wales to a ban on greyhound racing. Diolch yn fawr iawn. 

Thank you. Well, I've received a letter from the Dogs Trust, Blue Cross and the RSPCA setting out their revised policy on greyhound racing, and stating they would welcome the opportunity to meet with me, and I'll certainly be very happy to meet with them to discuss the policy. As you know, I agree with you; a lot of the greyhound racing is very, very cruel. I'm surprised you didn't mention your own Arthur, but, as you say, it's something—and I see Luke Fletcher is in his seat—that you've both really been pushing me on. 

As you know, we've got the animal welfare plan for Wales. That sets out how we will be bringing forward further measures. I'm still awaiting a response to my letter that I wrote back in March to the new owner of the Valley Greyhound Stadium, the only one we have here in Wales; he hasn't had the courtesy to respond, despite chasing that letter. 

Following on from the question from Natasha Asghar on vaping, I just wondered if it's possible to have a refreshed statement arising out of the new strategy on tobacco control, because we heard very clearly from the First Minister that the number of 11 to 17-year-olds vaping has gone up significantly, and that this has a major impact on brain development up to the age of 25. And if we're going to deal with young people, it needs combined action by health, education and regulatory services. So, I wondered if it would be possible to have such a statement from somebody in the Government, because there are three different departments involved. But it seems to me that we cannot allow young people to be pulled into vaping as an addiction as a way of getting them into smoking. We need to be going in the opposite direction.

Thank you. As you referred to, the First Minister gave a very detailed answer to Natasha Asghar around e-cigarette use. And you're quite right in highlighting the concerns we have, particularly with young people using those e-cigarettes. I think the First Minister did reference our new tobacco strategy, 'A Smoke-free Wales'; that was published back in July, so it's probably a bit soon for the Minister for Health and Social Services to bring forward a statement. I know she's aware of the recent evidence that the charity Action on Smoking and Health have brought forward, and that indicates e-cigarette use by young people in the UK is increasing. You mentioned 11 to 17; it's risen from 4 per cent in 2020 to 7 per cent in just two years, in relation to e-cigarettes.

Minister, there's a growing campaign in Bridgend to reinstate bus services that have stopped, following the decision of Easyway bus company to cease trading. In my view, the council has a duty to its residents to ensure that public transport is accessible for people living in Oaklands, Broadlands and Pen-y-fai, as well as supporting those who need public transport to access Glanrhyd Hospital. Will the Minister schedule a statement from the Deputy Minister for Climate Change to outline what discussions Ministers are having with local government about public transport for those communities now reliant only on their cars, and for the protection of our environment, which relies on us being more ambitious about public transport? Thank you.

Thank you. Public transport is very important for many of our constituents, and I know we all get a great deal of casework in relation to public transport, particularly bus services, because that's the form of travel that's most used by constituents. The Deputy Minister for Climate Change meets regularly with, obviously, partners, including local authorities, in relation to the provision of public bus services. I would urge you to write to Bridgend County Borough Council in the first instance.

Trefnydd, could I ask for a written update about the progress that is being made to improve access to housing adaptations for people living with motor neurone disease and other degenerative conditions? And thank you to the Members who attended the MND event earlier today and listened to people who were suffering and the pressures they are under. As I've said previously, I welcome the engagement that I've had with Ministers about how we can better support people living with MND in Wales, and I recognise that there's a willingness to make changes for the better, such as the new clinical lead that has been recruited. But, in terms of housing adaptations, we're still yet to see the progress that needs to be made. Many people with MND unfortunately pass away before they can receive the adaptations that would substantially improve their quality of life, and so I would appreciate some additional information from the Welsh Government about the impact that changes to the adaptation process are having on waiting times, as well as an update as to whether all councils have adopted a policy of not using means testing, which the Welsh Government aim to fully implement early in the year. Thank you.

Thank you. In relation to your last point, I'm not sure of the progress there, but I will certainly ask the relevant Minister to write to you if there has been progress in relation to that policy. I think you highlight—. MND is such a cruel condition; I think it's one of the cruellest conditions that people have to live with, and it's really good that you highlighted that with the event here today. And of course, if somebody with a disease such as MND or many other neuromuscular conditions, which of course are very complex, requires housing adaptations, then they need them more or less immediately, don't they? So, I think you do raise a very important point, but I will ask the Minister to write to you if there is progress on the final point.

And finally, Natasha Asghar.

Thank you so much, Deputy Presiding Officer. Minister, could I ask for a statement from the Minister for Finance and Local Government about ensuring transparency and accountability in local authorities? A bit of background to the reason why I'm asking this question is because, within the Ynysddu ward in Caerphilly, there are two toxic quarries, called Tŷ Llwyd, which are seeping toxins past people's houses. In May 2022, the Ynysddu ward was won by two independent candidates, Councillors Janine Reed and Jan Jones, on a promise to reinstate the Tŷ Llwyd quarry committee, consisting of council cabinet members, local councillors and residents. The local leader of Caerphilly council agreed to visit the site, but refused to allow the local representatives to accompany him on the visit. On the day of the visit, Councillors Reed and Jones, together with local residents, were again refused permission to accompany the council leader on the visit. So, can we have a statement from the Minister on how the Welsh Government is ensuring accountability and transparency in local government in Wales? Also, what guidelines are in place to protect the rights of councillors from minority groupings? And what can be done to stop Welsh Labour council leaders trying to shut down debate by gagging the opposition? Thank you.

You obviously raise a very specific and local issue. I do think it would be better for you to write directly to the Minister.

I thank the Trefnydd.

The next item is a statement by the Minister for Economy, regional economic development, moved forward from 11 October. I call on the Minister, Vaughan Gething.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I am pleased to have this opportunity to update on the progress that we are making to support stronger regional economic development against an extremely challenging backdrop. Dirprwy Lywydd, our vision for regional investment is to support jobs and growth in communities across Wales. We know that the inclusive and sustainable growth this requires relies upon regional decision making that links national priorities with local opportunities. Our regional economic frameworks were co-designed with partners in each of the regions, including local authorities and regional bodies. They're based on evidence, with clear priorities aligned with our economic mission.

Aligning regional economic wellbeing, transport and planning in new corporate joint committees provides a fresh opportunity to capitalise on the interdependencies between them. This will support local authorities to deliver their regional ambitions, develop successful regional economies and to encourage local growth. Indeed, the four city and growth deals reflect the existing drive for sustainable growth and innovative partnership working amongst regional partners. Although these deals are still in their relative infancy, my officials, alongside the UK Government, continue to work closely with the four regional delivery partners to assess the opportunities within the business cases developed over the lifetime of the deals.

Dirprwy Lywydd, our commitment to regional working is also an investment in more integrated skills delivery. With shared governance, regional skills partnerships will be in a stronger position to influence investment and match provision to demand in a way that is responsive to local opportunities to expand fair work.

Our work across all regions is wedded to the collective goal of securing investment in the industries of the future, which will fuel better-paid, skilled jobs. In south-east Wales we're working with Thales to create a cyber resilience campus in Ebbw Vale through our Tech Valleys programme. Together with our local partners and Cardiff University we are investing in our strengths and supporting new start-ups in cyber security. Tomorrow, I'll be at a groundbreaking ceremony for the latest investment in the semiconductor industry, creating many hundreds of new, well-paid jobs.

In north Wales, we've established Cwmni Egino to pursue ambitious new developments at Trawsfynydd, including small modular reactors to generate low-carbon electricity and a medical research reactor to help with the diagnosis and treatment of cancer and more.

In mid Wales, collaborative working helped us to secure more than 100 jobs with support for automotive parts manufacturer the Marrill Group in Llanfyllin in Powys. And in Baglan Energy Park, we saw how strong partnership working staved off the very real threat of catastrophic harm to businesses and families. As well as issuing legal proceedings, the Welsh Government worked with the local authority, Dŵr Cymru and local businesses to secure power to the energy park and save hundreds of jobs.

We're also taking forward our co-operation agreement commitment to co-produce phase 2 of the Arfor programme alongside local authority partners. This will be supported by additional resources, with £11 million for the three-year period to 2024-25. A further announcement is anticipated in the near future.

Dirprwy Lywydd, we continue to work with the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development on regional policy. In the context of the co-operation agreement with Plaid Cymru, the OECD will focus on supporting Arfor and the Valleys through their current project. The OECD will look at and design models for local government to work together, which includes opportunities to develop joint working across regions with Valleys communities. I look forward to working towards a model that brings together decision makers and budget holders on a permanent basis to maximise our collective ability to deliver stronger, long-term economic outcomes across Valleys communities.

Across all our regions, our Business Wales service helps to inspire individuals to become entrepreneurial and ensures that microbusinesses and SMEs have access to support. I've committed to provide £20.9 million per year up until March 2025, extending the backbone of the Business Wales service beyond the end of EU funding in 2023. This includes dedicated advice and support for our social enterprise sector. While providing a one-stop shop for support, I recognise that Business Wales cannot deliver on all local business support required by entrepreneurs, micro and SMEs across Wales. As such, the service is designed to build on its strength as a nationally delivered offer that complements local delivery and wider funding opportunities available to the third and public sectors.

Dirprwy Lywydd, as you will know, Wales's ports are an incredible national asset and an intrinsic part of our history, economy and way of life. We have reached agreement with the UK Government on delivering a free-port programme in Wales, which should support our economic mission to develop the fundamental goal of achieving inclusive growth. I look forward to receiving ambitious and innovative bids that offer the prospect of sustainable, economic and social benefits to Wales. Our message in the prospectus is clear: the free-port programme in Wales must contribute to, not take away from, our wider objectives to create a stronger, fairer, greener Wales. This is a significant example of how Governments can work together in a partnership of equals.

Dirprwy Lywydd, the economic performance of our regions is of course exposed to the extreme macro-economic picture that we now face. In addition to the twin challenges of leaving the European Union and the COVID pandemic, we also face global threats to our energy security and a terms-of-trade shock that have combined to cause dramatic price rises for all. The UK Government's regressive and unfunded fiscal statement sent shock waves through our economy, triggering a market response that will negate much of the support confirmed for households and businesses. The lasting impact of the statement will mean higher costs for all levels of government and our settlement is worth £4 billion less than was the case at the time of the comprehensive spending review.

The UK-level rejection of industrial policy specifically disadvantages regions and nations beyond London and the south-east. Instead, it sends a signal that the new UK Government does not regard them—us—as essential to the UK's growth path. Levelling-up plans, such as they are, in no way make up for this problem, whilst causing duplication and poor value-for-money outcomes at the same as undermining devolution. The funds that support the so called levelling-up agenda represent a shortfall to Wales of £1.1 billion by 2025, compared to the UK Government's manifesto promise to match the size of EU funds for Wales. The UK Government is using these funds to support its own priorities in devolved areas over which it has no mandate. It is clear that Multiply, for instance, is too narrow in focus and will duplicate devolved provision, leading to preventable waste and poor value for money. The top-down shared prosperity fund represents similar challenges and has been defined by delays within an incoherent approach that is widely criticised by expert independent voices at both a Welsh and UK level. The shared prosperity fund will also compound existing inequalities as it is not allocated on the basis of need. Instead, a smaller overall sum is being skewed away from our most deprived communities at the worst possible time.

Dirprwy Lywydd, UK Ministers responsible for these new funds will know that they face significant delivery problems. Welsh local government was not consulted on the funds and have been kept in the dark as Whitehall announcements were frequently delayed. This fundamentally undermines the ability of all partners to produce joined-up plans that meet the needs of our communities. It is becoming increasingly clear that UK Ministers were keen to claw back powers but uninterested in taking responsibility. It is crucial that the right lessons are learnt from this aggressive attack on devolution, and we will challenge any attempt made by UK Ministers to shift the blame for their costly mistakes onto Welsh local authorities. Dirprwy Lywydd, this Welsh Government will continue to invest in stronger, distinctive regions to support a fairer, greener Welsh economy. I look forward to updating Members as we develop our ambitious plans for delivery across all four regions.

Can I thank the Minister for his statement this afternoon? The creation of regional frameworks in December was an important step forward in recognising the economic value of individual regions and also provides the opportunity to build for the future by harnessing the potential of regions in different sectors and industries. For example, in south-west Wales, sectors like tourism, agriculture and energy are areas of strategic importance that provide opportunities for growth, and, through the development of a regional framework, labour market resilience can be built and best practice embedded through the supply chain. Of course, each framework reflects the distinct opportunities for each region but also addresses some of the particular challenges that those regions face in terms of skills, infrastructure development and connectivity. Key to the success of the frameworks is ensuring the frameworks partners work collaboratively to develop the right skills bases for their future workforce. So, I'd be grateful if the Minister could tell us what work has already been done alongside the regional skills partnerships to develop those skills bases and ensure they're aligned to each region's economic development priorities.

Strategic collaboration is essential in maximising regional economic growth, and it's important that local stakeholders feel that they can input to these particular frameworks. High-street businesses, home-based businesses, sole traders and others must all have buy-in to these frameworks so that the voices of those on the front line are actually heard. Now, I appreciate that some collaboration has already taken place in certain places, as mentioned in his statement, but perhaps the Minister could tell us what work is being done to ensure that businesses are consulted in each region and are part of the initiatives that are actually taking place in each region. 

I'm pleased to hear that the Welsh Government is extending the funding for Business Wales until March 2025, and the Minister is right to highlight the support that the service offers. The Minister will be aware that some business organisations have called for Business Wales to include an advice line on sustainability and decarbonisation, and so perhaps the Minister could tell us what discussions he and his officials have had with Business Wales about providing support to businesses in this particular area. 

Now, today's statement refers to the city and growth deals and the good inter-governmental work that has been done to facilitate regional economic growth. The three-way investment agreements between the Welsh Government, the UK Government and local authorities are another important vehicle in providing regions with the funding to drive economic growth in their areas. Of course, the city and growth deals need to be continually reviewed to test and measure their effectiveness, and so I'd be grateful if the Minister could tell us a bit more about how that work is taking place so that we can ensure that they are still effective and not, for example, increasing bureaucracy. 

Today's statement also mentions the levelling-up agenda and the shared prosperity fund, and, in his usual way, he has vilified the UK Government's approach when it comes to these issues. Now, I share some of his frustrations, but I would simply gently remind the Minister that Wales has two Governments and it's important that both Governments work together in the interests of businesses and in the interests of households across Wales. Now, as the Minister has already said, the city and growth deals and the free-port programme are both examples of where, when Governments work together, progress is made. And I want to assure the Minister that I will continue to do what I can to advocate an approach to regional funding that works with all levels of government across the UK. 

Now, looking to the future, I'm sure the Minister will accept the need to do more to invest in emerging technologies, particularly in the fields of energy production, sciences and medicine, and computer technology. Indeed, each of the regional economic frameworks recognises the importance of academic and research capability, and I can't stress how important it is that the Welsh Government prioritises research and innovation funding, going forward. Therefore, perhaps the Minister could provide an update on the Welsh Government's position in relation to funding for research and innovation and what plans it has to increase funding into emerging technologies. 

Dirprwy Lywydd, the Minister is right to highlight the extremely challenging backdrop that businesses and households are facing. That's why it's even more important that the Welsh Government creates the right conditions for businesses to generate better quality, higher paid jobs and other employment opportunities. There are several key issues that are found in all of the regional economic frameworks, including the need for infrastructure improvements, creating the right skills bases, and strengthening the foundational economy to build resilience in the regional economy. It's vital that the work being done to develop and support regional economies in Wales aligns with the Welsh Government's economic priorities and policies. For example, the frameworks could recognise the role that enterprise zones can play in supporting regional economies, too. So, I hope the Minister will give us an update on the work of enterprise zones across Wales and tell us a bit more about how they operate alongside other regional economic programmes, so that we can gain a clearer picture of how the Welsh Government's regional economic ambitions are working in practice and better understand their governance and delivery.

So, in closing, Dirprwy Lywydd, can I thank the Minister for his statement today and say that I support his efforts to facilitate a place-based model of economic development where there's buy-in from local partners? I look forward to hearing more about this work in due course. Thank you.

Thank you for the questions, and I'll try and deal with as many of them as I can promptly, Dirprwy Lywydd. On enterprise zones, I have previously announced a statement on the refresh of enterprise zones, some of which have come to an end, some of which are continuing. So, I won't go through that again.

On infrastructure and the point the Member makes, this Government has an ability to invest in infrastructure. Of course, that's denuded by the reality that we had a cash-cut in our capital budget. It's really challenging to do that. We have more opportunity to derive benefit than our budget allows us to do. It means the choices are difficult, but that means it's even more important to make choices that can actually deliver a significant benefit. And I do welcome the Welsh Conservatives' relatively recent conversion to making the case that there should be a proper direct consequential from HS2. That would give us a significant amount of room to make proper investments in our infrastructure. And on that point, at least, I'm sure the Member would join me in wishing for a u-turn in the current UK Government's position.

On research and innovation, we're out to consultation. The consultation just ended on our innovation strategy, so I'll be able to report back at the end of that, once the views are in, on a new strategy and our approach. When it comes to the resource for that as well, I pointed out in my statement that our budget is now worth £4 billion less than it was at the time of the comprehensive spending review.You can't wish that away. There is real pressure not just across my department, but across the whole of the Government, on how we'll be able to find funds for each area. So, we're not going to have all of the direct resources we'd want to in every single area of the economy. It makes it even more important, and it really highlights the challenge of having lost EU funds that we did put into research and innovation in Wales. It also highlights the fact that we, collectively across Wales—businesses and universities too—need to be better at not just gaining more from the research and innovation that takes place within higher and further education and how that leads into the world of business, but, actually, that we need to be better at gaining more from UK-wide innovation funds. One of the things I do think has been welcome is that the UK Government has set aside a fairly chunky amount of money to go into future research and innovation—it's more than £20 billion. Our challenge is that, in a number of decades past, we haven't done as well as we should have done in Wales in gaining money from UK-wide funds. So, the south-east of England does fairly well, and parts of Scotland do fairly well; Wales gets, I think, 2 per cent to 3 per cent of UK-wide funds. Actually, we're going to need to do a great deal better than that, and part of what that innovation strategy's going to need to do is bring us together to make sure that we are tooled-up to do that successfully.

When it comes to Business Wales and the decarbonisation advice they already provide, that's already part of the mission. I'm sure the Member will recall my written and oral statements on this. One of the three future aims is actually to support productivity, resilience, growth and to decarbonise. On the decarbonisation and sustainability of micro, small and medium businesses, the advice is already there, and we're looking to do more of that in the refresh of Business Wales.

When it comes to business organisations in growth deals and collaboration, I think it's important to recognise that, actually, we do deliberately want to plug businesses in within those regions to the work that is being done. When it comes to business organisations, they do have relationships with those regions. They definitely have relationships with the regional skills partnerships that exist as well, and it's helpful—in one of the few things that made sense and a difference with the shared prosperity fund—that we persuaded the UK Government to have the same regions for the shared prosperity fund that we'd already created. Our challenge is going to be about how we continue that collaboration with some of the alternative headwinds. I'm actually, though, encouraged about the buy-in from all of our local authority leaderships, both before the recent elections and afterwards. You'll see cross-party leaderships in each region of Wales who want to make it work.

There is, though, a challenge about the skills budget, because, again, that's directly affected by the loss of EU funds and the broken promise on making up every single penny of that. That gives us a real headache, but when it comes to the way that those organisations are working, I think we're in a pretty good place, but there is always, of course—I think each region would recognise—more that they could do.

Finally, on your broader point about working with the UK Government, I've given in my statement examples of where we've managed to do that. That has required, though, the UK Government being prepared to work with us, because on the areas where we haven't been able to work together it isn't because we've said, 'We won't talk to you.' The shared prosperity fund didn't reach agreement because the UK Government took our powers and has taken over £1 billion of our money that was promised to Wales in the last general election. I continue to talk with UK Ministers in areas where we can work together, and I'll continue to be constructive in those conversations. There's no lack of willingness from our side to have a conversation, but it is, 'Work with us,' not, 'Decide for us,' not, 'Take our powers and our budget.' 'Work with us and there is a constructive way forward,' but I make no apology for calling out those occasions that have happened in the past if they happen again in the future, where the UK Government has refused to be a willing partner in growing regional and national economies here in Wales and across the UK.

Thank you, Minister, for the statement.

In response to the Minister's last statement on regional economic development in January this year, I brought up my concerns about a lack of energy projects being identified in some of the frameworks, especially in light of the cost-of-living crisis and the rising fuel poverty that exists in Wales. This was only at the very beginning of this crisis. Our post-industrial areas are really being hit; these areas rank higher on Lowell's financial vulnerability scale, while having a higher number of energy crisis hotspots, according to Friends of the Earth.

Due to the unequal spread of energy projects in the regional economic framework documents, can the Minister please reiterate how he will ensure that all regions of Wales can benefit from more green energy project developments, with the aim of making energy bills cheaper, especially as we continue to face a growing cost-of-living crisis? It's clear that we have to crisis-proof the future so that we don't find ourselves in a crisis like this again, which I believe will be done by investing in green energy and ensuring that this industry is nationalised and publicly owned.

Last time I raised the need to move towards green energy within these frameworks, the Minister responded by raising concerns about a just transition, so I would reiterate, therefore, and ask the Minister to consider establishing a just transition commission, so that we can begin transitioning as soon as possible in the face of this crisis and to prevent further energy crises or climate damage.

There was also mention of free ports in the Minister's statement today. Free ports are rarely, if at all, mentioned in any of the regional economic development publications, yet Welsh Government are launching a free-port programme with the UK Government. Free ports are not new and there's a whole bank of research that criticises them. There's a myriad of evidence showing free ports go hand in hand with low-wage job creation, likely job relocation, instead of creation, and the potential for illegal activity while wealthy high-net-worth individuals and businesses stand to gain. Of course, his statement expresses the Government's desire to create better paid and skilled jobs, and the Minister, in the statement, noted that the free-port programme in Wales must contribute to and not take away from our wider objectives to create a stronger, fairer and greener Wales. But it strikes me that free ports don't align with the Government's ambition on this.

It's simple: we cannot be willing to go along with this if it means eroding workers' rights and conditions, as well as undercutting environmental standards. We cannot compromise on our principles. To that end, can the Minister outline his rationale behind Government support for free ports? And would the Minister agree that problems in underdeveloped areas could be solved by investment and community wealth-building strategies without any need for free ports at all?

Finally, in his last statement on the regional economic development framework, I raised the issue of the brain drain with the Minister, and specifically how the framework should be integrated with the young person's guarantee to retain talent and improve job creation in Wales. How does this now align with the Minister's support for free ports to improve regional economic development?

Thank you for the questions. On energy projects, I think you will find that there are green energy projects that are being proposed in every single one of the four regions. Mid Wales isn't just a home to the Centre for Alternative Technology in Machynlleth; there's more to be done there. And actually, the UK Government have recently confirmed that they're interested in more onshore wind generation as well. It's relatively cheap compared to other forms of power generation, but you'll also see offshore wind generation in significant quantities in north Wales and also around Swansea bay with the Celtic sea. So, there's lots of opportunity and, of course, the capital region have purchased Aberthaw as a landing point for green energy generation. And the point for me isn't just to decarbonise our supply of energy; it's the economic activity and benefit that goes with it.

I regularly think about Denmark, not just because my elder brother and his family live there, but, actually, they managed to get to a point with onshore wind in particular, where they got in early, they got first-mover advantage, they got lots and lots of economic benefit, not just the power generation, and I'm keen that we don't lose sight of the economic opportunities. I don't just want us to construct lots of energy projects near to them being deployed and then maintain them, I think there's a real opportunity to do much more. And again, it's another example of where if there was a willing approach from the UK Government, we could do more on investment, because some of the investment around HyNet in north-west England and north Wales could and should be extended; we could also see more across the industrial cluster right across east, west and south Wales as well, and that would be to all of our benefit. 

When it comes to your point about the just transition, that's a key part of our Net Zero Wales plan. We're looking for a just transition, not to simply abandon areas and not to have a plan for a transition from one form of employment to another. And that's not necessarily easy, but there is a real opportunity to do so. Many of the skills that are unlikely to be—. Many of the jobs that are unlikely to be needed in 20 to 30 years will still have skills that will transfer into newer jobs, and part of our challenge is how we reskill people already in the world of work. And that's part of the reason why this Government is investing in personal learning accounts, for example—so, learning in work. And I regularly make this point, and I had a conversation just this morning about this: the workforce of the future is here in very large part. People in work in 10 years' time, most of those people are already in the workforce. So, yes, we need new entrants coming in—we should never apologise for focusing on those new entrants who will learn new skills, coming in today, tomorrow and in the next few years—but we also need to make sure that we take our current workforce with us and provide them with opportunities to acquire new skills. 

On many of your questions around free ports, I will just say there's no need for the Government not to have a focus on community wealth building, and that is very much part of our everyday economy and the foundational economy approach as well: how we try to keep wealth within communities; what that means for local procurement, not just in the bids, but then in the way that people then behave once they've secured procurement contracts as well—that they keep to what they said they'd do. That is very much part of what we'll need to see in the free ports programme as well.

Look, this was a UK Government initiative, and the Welsh Government has negotiated to a position where we can agree to the deployment of a free port on terms that we have inserted. And there's similarity in what we have agreed and what the Scottish Government has agreed as well. So, we do have conditions around fair work in the prospectus, and you'd expect me, not just as a former trade unionist and Welsh Labour Member, but you'd expect me, as a Minister in a Government that has a commitment to Wales being a fair work nation, to see free ports must be part of that and not separate from it. So, that's what's in the prospectus, and I'm not going to agree to any bid that comes forward on the basis of diminishing terms and conditions, on diminishing environmental regulations, on diminishing labour rights. And that is a genuine decision, where we will make the decision, as well as the UK Government. I'm prepared to say 'no' to bids that don't meet that standard.

As well as seeing what's in the bid, I also want to see how that's going to be monitored and managed. That's why we set up some of the architecture on what's being called essentially a workers committee. There'll be people who recognise this a joint union committee in other workplaces, where you do have a way for trade unions to be part of what takes place on a work site, on a multi-employer site as well. It's not that unusual in power, steel and other places as well.

So, I look forward to bids, but also to activity. For me, the test will be not whether within that area you see more economic activity, but whether you overall see more activity, rather than activity that has been displaced. That's part of the challenge of previous examples of this sort of intervention: can we genuinely grow overall economic activity and not simply shift it from one part of the country to another?

Thank you, Minister, for providing this statement today. Just to pick up on your points there, and, Luke, your questions about free ports, I would hope, then, that that would mean that the Welsh Government would never make a deal with DP World, which owns P&O Ferries and sacked 800 of their staff. Unsurprisingly, but disappointingly, the UK Government, two of their largest are run by DP World, Dubai based, and they have given them £50 million to do that.

I'd also just like to say as well that the UK parliamentary representative in my community keeps calling for it to be in Porthcawl. I would just like to say that I haven't heard a single person in my community call for a 44 km free port to be in our Porthcawl marina, although we would, of course, like to benefit from, as you said, the community welfare, the jobs and everything that comes from it; for example, we've always had a very close relationship with Port Talbot. So, yes, just to say that on behalf of my community.

I just wanted to say as well that the Welsh Government has recently invested in a multimillion-pound site at Brocastle, and there is further investment in the infrastructure to accompany the new site, with a £2 million active travel route. This is great news for the local economy and opportunities for jobs. However, we do know that more can be done, and the Ford site continues to be a reminder of the opportunity for investment in our communities. I know that you are working very hard to get that sorted out.

You do need to ask your question now.

Sorry. So, it'd be great to have an update on that, if possible. Also, I would just like to ask, Minister: do you agree that the Welsh Government does value the constituency of Bridgend and other communities as places to invest and grow our local economies?

Thank you. I'll just deal with the free-ports point first, and I'll tell you upfront that I'm going to avoid giving you a straight answer, because I'm going to be the decision-taking Minister, so I can't tell you that I definitely won't accept a bid from someone, because I'll have to consider that objectively.

I've heard what you've had to say about Porthcawl and Port Talbot, and I'm sure there'll be bids right across the country. I see Members in this Chamber who have alternative ports that they take an interest in, who may want to press me to agree at this point that their local area will be the one that'll be agreed. But, I will look at all of the bids and I will do what the prospectus says we're going to do; so, anyone who isn't committed to fair work isn't going to get agreement to be a free port in Wales, at least.

On your broader point about Brocastle, it's interesting, because it's one of the things that we're going to need to do more of and to think about: how we not just see large employment sites and get good-quality employment on there, but, actually, how you get people to and from work as well. So, that's both about the design and about their links to public transport, but it is also about active travel and options to think about how, if you can't decarbonise the whole journey to work, can you do something about the last mile or the last element of it. Can you do something that will take out the workers' footprint on getting to work itself? But, I'm really optimistic about Brocastle. It's been a significant investment by the Welsh Government that's brought that site forward. We should see a large number of jobs on that site, and, again, jobs with a real future.

With Ford, my officials and I have been in contact with the company to make clear that it's a really significant employment site. It has had high-quality, high-wage employment on it in the past for a significant period of time. What I don't want to see is that that employment site goes into a much lower wage series of alternatives. The company will need to decide—we're not in a position to make the decision for them—but I do think there are high-wage and high-skill opportunities that we would definitely want to see put onto that site, and that continues to be the case that we make to the company itself.

I do see Bridgend as being hugely important, not just in terms of it being the Member's constituency, but for the number of opportunities that there are within the different employment available, with lots of it high-wage and high-skill, but also our contribution for the future; for example, the new investment in the college as well, to make sure that people are properly equipped for the future and at a variety of different ages. I do look forward at some point to visiting the constituency with the Member, as she has asked me on a number of occasions; at some point, I'm sure our diaries will align.

Thank you, Minister, for your statement. I'm pleased that you recognise transport as a key thread. The need to rethink transport systems across Wales is important, and it's clearly evident in all of the four regional economic frameworks, as we've seen published a little while ago. 

If I focus on the south Wales metro scheme, this has the potential, as you know, to enhance economic opportunity and prosperity right across south-east Wales, including my constituency, Monmouth. But, I think there are questions over the progress and action that is being seen for modal shifts, such as rapid bus transit, to encourage the economic growth we all need to see. Transport for Wales oversees the metro, and it’s not in the gift of the city deal to oversee that, but perhaps that’s something that needs to be considered. How are you engaging with the various regional cabinets to ensure that the needs of local communities and economies are fully incorporated in your plans?

I want to touch briefly on the point Paul raised as well. I was pleased you mentioned that the Government are trying to seek out further investment, which is absolutely fundamental. We’ve had some great innovations in south-east Wales, such as the compound semiconductors, and the rest of those clusters that are evolving, but it relies upon continued access to investment and skills to drive progress on a more impactful scale. So, I just want to labour that point again, about the fact that we aren’t working closely enough with UKRI or Innovate UK to lever in those funds. We keep talking strategy, strategy, strategy; when do we get to action, action, action, and lever in the moneys like Scotland have done, and actually drive things forward? We are getting left behind.

I think there are two broad questions there. On innovation funds, I am keen, as I’ve said, to see much greater outputs in terms of research funding being awarded, and then outcomes in terms of what those funds will allow us to do. We have really good examples of applied research and the difference it can make. The knowledge transfer partnerships we have are a really good example on a small level, and I’m sure you’ll have seen that in your own constituency, and in your previous life as a leader of a local authority—the difference that can make to the productivity and profitability of a business. Our challenge is, with the shift in funding, how we take more out of UK Research and Innovation funds. That requires a shift here in Wales, not just within the Government and what the strategy will set out, but actually all of our various different partners. Because the Government can’t write bids for HE or for businesses that want to get those funds. What we need to do is not just copy what other regions have been successful in, but think about the distinct offer we have and where we could and should see investment funds being made here in the future of research and innovation.

The second part we require a shift in is in the minds of decisions makers. It’s a point that I’ve made regularly. I’m not trying to land a party political shot here, but George Freeman, the previous science Minister—I genuinely don’t know who the current science Minister is; up until a couple of weeks ago there wasn’t one—was someone who had come from the sector into politics, and he was very keen to see innovation take place right across the UK. He understood that there are areas of opportunity in Wales where he would want to see funds go to that. If we had a similarly committed science Minister who understood the landscape, I think there’d be a place for a conversation that was both an intelligent one and would lead to some different choices being made as well. Like I say, there is a genuine opportunity to do something of value both to Wales and across the UK.

On your point about the metro and modal shift, I regularly talk to cabinets from the various different regions, and you’ll know a bit about this, given that you were on the capital region cabinet at one point in time. I’ve met them recently. I’ve met with people around the Swansea bay deal as well and their regional cabinet. I’ve met the north Wales group as well, and I expect to see them again soon. I look forward to seeing more work done on the mid Wales deal, which is in a different place because they’ve actually reached their agreement later than the other three regions of Wales. But I’ll continue to keep in touch with them as partners—not as someone to tell them what they must do, but as partners in what we’re looking to do, the role they have in regional economic development and the role we have alongside them, and choices that can only be made at a national level as well.

I’m grateful to you, Minister, for the statement. I'm also grateful for your continuing commitment to Tech Valleys and your previous commitments to the programme and its budget over future years. The macro situation we’re facing in Blaenau Gwent and elsewhere is far more difficult than it has been in the past. We’ve seen a disastrous Brexit that has locked us out of significant markets, and where the UK Government seems more interested in the money markets of the City of London than either agriculture or the regional economies anywhere in the United Kingdom. We’ve also seen levelling up dumped by the new Prime Minister, and we’ve seen incompetent handling of the economy that means that any business wanting to invest is going to be borrowing at far higher levels, and at far higher rates than even a few weeks ago. So, it's incumbent upon the Welsh Government to take action to protect regional economies like that in the Heads of the Valleys. Will the Minister commit to creating a delivery mechanism in the Heads of the Valleys to ensure that we can direct funding and bring together different programmes to have the greatest possible impact in investing in our economy? I welcomed the Secretary of State for Wales to Ebbw Vale over the summer, and I'd be very happy to welcome him again to the Heads of the Valleys and to Blaenau Gwent to work with him and work with others, with local authority leaders and yourself, to ensure that we have all the abilities brought together to invest in the future of our communities.

I thank the Member for his comments and questions. In my statement, when I referred to the terms of business changing, this is exactly what we're talking about—the terms of business for importers and exporters. With the recent fall in the pound and then the partial recovery, the interest rate rises are still locked in, and the spike in UK terms is very different to other parts of the world facing similar global pressures. Our challenge is that it is now much more difficult; there is more cost, unavoidably so, in being an import or an export business. The challenge, though, is that it is still possible to do that, but people need more support and more help. They've also already recognised that they need to take on more people to actually deal with the paperwork that they now have to do to understand how to get goods to and from places, but also the extended time frames for goods to be delivered, and, frankly, less reliability.

When it comes to business loans and the rise in rates, it's one of the things that business organisations have been very keen to tell me about recently. They've already seen a significant increase in the rates that they're going to need to pay. That means that, actually, there will be less investment, and, more than that, there are some people who are thinking again about whether they want to invest at this point in time. Part of what we want to try to do is to still give people a good reason to invest in the future of the Welsh economy.

That brings me to your point about work in the Valleys. I do remain committed to seeing real improvements, not just words. It's one of my big priorities in the department to get a future structure that, as I said in the statement, brings together budget holders and decision makers. The Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development work, within the current contract, is designed to get us there, to look at the current structures that we have and how do we get something that can work best with the particular challenges that exist in Valleys communities. I spoke to your colleague Vikki Howells earlier, and she's keen for Valleys constituency Members to have a further conversation with me. I'd be very happy to facilitate that, this side of the half-term break ideally, to make sure we can have not just a conversation but to keep you updated on the detail of the work that we're looking to do and to make sure the OECD work works for your communities and other Valleys ones as well.

Thank you, Minister, for your statement today on economic regional development. Of course, economic regions and economic boundaries often don't match administrative boundaries or regions. You will, of course, Minister, be aware that this is really important for my residents in north Wales, because every 24 hours, 200,000 people move between north-east Wales and the north-west of England, going backwards and forwards across that really important economic boundary. That's why, Minister, I'm really keen to support the work of the Mersey Dee Alliance and to see their work progress to see that economic region develop over future years. Minister, my question is: how do you see the future of the Mersey Dee Alliance, and how do you see your role as Minister and as Welsh Government in seeing the success of the Mersey Dee Alliance and that really important economic region?

I'm very positive about the Mersey Dee Alliance from the previous conversations I've had with them, but also with the ambition board across north Wales, again, that you'll be familiar with from a previous role before coming to this place. But, actually, the plan that exists there, and making sure that the Mersey Dee Alliance adds to that and doesn't compete with it or potentially duplicate some of the work, is important. So, the two Welsh authorities, Flintshire and Wrexham, and the two authorities in Cheshire—. Actually, I met them last week in a meeting chaired by Ken Skates, who had brought them together. It was actually genuinely constructive around the conversations we're trying to have about how we can see more go into the Mersey Dee area. The challenge is still about whether there will be resource to help them realise their plans.

They've got a range of projects that would work and benefit both sides of the border, and there is a recognition that there is a very large travel-to-work area there that flows on both sides of the border. We've had some previous embarrassing incidents in the past where UK Ministers have said they're visiting Airbus in Cheshire. Of course, Airbus isn't in Cheshire—it's on our side of the border—but lots of people who work there do live on the other side of the border, so it's not much of a surprise. The challenge is will we get to a point of stability in the policy-making framework, an understanding of the resource that's available, and then some genuine investment choices being made to help advance the ambitions of the Mersey Dee Alliance. I'm optimistic about that.

I am, though, concerned about the potential pebble-in-the-pond of investment zones. There hasn’t been a change in this perspective, at least. Of the 38 potential investment zones, one of the possible ones was Cheshire west. If there's an investment zone in Cheshire west, what does that do to the Mersey Dee Alliance? Does it unbalance things? It isn't clear to me. It isn't clear to me about the reliefs and incentives and whether that will displace activity rather than grow it. The collaborative way that those four authorities are working is a good example of what really can be done when people recognise they have a common interest.   

And finally, Carolyn Thomas.

Diolch. I was going to say also that the north Wales economy and transport work cross border. I attended a Growth Track 360 fringe event last week. We talked about the importance of HS2 funding coming to that border region and, with Cheshire West and Chester being possibly an investment zone, the impact it could have on Wrexham industrial estate, Deeside industrial estate, and enterprise zones. So, I'm hoping you will talk with UK Government, as you have done over the free-port status, so that we protect working conditions and environmental conditions.

The Prime Minister has said that she wants to build back the economy through creating jobs. We have lots of jobs in Wales, jobs in the public sector, that we cannot fill, that are really important. Do you agree with me that businesses, as they are saying, need education for skills to employ people, that they need pot hole-free roads, and that we need good public transport and planning in place so that they can build houses and healthy communities? Minister, what can we do to promote these jobs as well to help build our communities, as well as promoting building up the private sector? Thank you.

I'm very clear that we should continue to invest in our public services. If we had the ability to do so, then, in direct contrast to what's likely to happen, I think we would see direct benefits for the private sector. The numbers of people, the quality of education people get, and the quality of public services make a real difference to all of those things. It also makes a real difference to local economies, where people spend their money locally. It's part of what I was talking about earlier with the everyday economy and that, actually, if we can keep more of that money in terms of what goes into procurement and local spend for public service workers, it will make a difference.

I am genuinely concerned about the consequences of the reported £18 billion cut to public services that has been floated by UK Ministers. Ushering in a new age of austerity at the same time as releasing the cap on bankers' bonuses and the direct transfer of money to the wealthiest 5 per cent in society would be entirely the wrong decision to make. There will be many people who recognise the direct unfairness of that choice. It's never too late to think again, and I certainly do hope that the Prime Minister and the Chancellor reconsider the course that they have set.

On your broader point about HS2, I certainly agree that consequentials would make a difference, not just in border areas, more than that in terms of investment that we could make in our infrastructure. And on investment zones, I have had an introductory meeting with Simon Clarke. He's written to both myself and the finance Minister. When I met him, I made it clear that the Welsh Government is prepared to talk about what investment zones mean. But, actually, we're also very clear it cannot mean a rolling back on environmental standards or on fair work, as we set out with free ports. If that’s what they're looking for, we won't reach agreement. I'd also need to understand, if there are going to be changes to devolved taxes, what does that mean for our fiscal position, given the significant challenges we face. So, there's a range of questions that I've yet to have answers to. It may be possible for us to reach agreement. It may be possible for to have a plan that will generally add to economic growth, not displace it. But if we don't get that, then I'm prepared to say 'no' and not to agree to have investment zones in Wales. So, there's a discussion that is starting. I hope it'll be constructive and we'll see at what point that reaches a conclusion.  

Minister, I've had a last-minute request. I'm in a generous mood this afternoon. I know the Member will also be brief. Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Thanks for letting me sneak in, and thank you for the statement. I'll just make the case that, as well as spreading prosperity through regional working in general, I encourage Governments at all levels to think sub-regionally; it's not just the north, but Ynys Môn feeling that it gets a crack at the whip, and within Ynys Môn, places like Amlwch, that have suffered so much, feeling that they are being prioritised too. 

Just very quickly though, I just wanted to explore your reference to free ports. You know I've always sought honesty, and honesty about what was being put on the table in the first place—£8 million for Wales, £25 for England. We held out and we got that. We sought honesty about assurances on workers' rights and on environmental regulations. But there's an ideological context here; the masked slipped, didn't it, with the economic policy published by the UK Conservative Government—tax cuts for the top at the expense of people at the bottom. Now, that's the context in which the free-ports policy exists. So, whilst looking at how we can maximise benefits from Anglesey—the Anglesey council-led bid—and try to make it the best bid that comes in front of you, we need to make sure that it's the workers who will benefit. How can you give assurance that we are dealing here in people, in communities, and not just in profits, in pound signs that we'll probably see very little of locally? 

The requirements for free ports will need to be supported by the host local authority and indeed their economic region. That's part of the condition for the bids to go in. They'll then be assessed by the two Governments, and, as I've said, and I'm more than happy to repeat again, there has to be a commitment to all aspects of that. That includes the Welsh Government's fair work agenda, it includes our environmental standards as well. And bids that don't meet that test won't be successful. And I'm not giving anything away; I'm not prejudicing my position as a decision maker because that's what's in the prospectus, and it means what it says. And I'm interested in how we then measure, as we go on, whether people are doing what they said they'd do at the bidding stage, if and when a free port comes into operation here in Wales, indeed wherever that free port may be. 

I know that the Member will have a particular view about where it should be, but I've yet to receive the bid. And when it comes to that point, I will of course return to this place to explain not just the decision, but I'll be more than happy to answer questions from Members. I'm sure that, while some may be positive about whatever decision is reached, there will be others asking other questions. I do hope that whatever happens, we will get serious investment plans that will allow us to look again at the future of port investment and genuinely generating extra economic growth and activity. 

Thank you, Minister.

Item 4 this afternoon is a statement by the Minister for Education and Welsh Language on the Cymraeg 2050 annual report 2021-22. And I call on Jeremy Miles. 

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. Today, I present the annual report on our Welsh language strategy, 'Cymraeg 2050: A million Welsh speakers', for the 2021-22 financial year. At the beginning of the sixth Senedd, we published our five-year work programme for delivering 'Cymraeg 2050' during 2021-26. This annual report therefore reports on the first year of that programme and the commitments made in the programme for government and the co-operation agreement with Plaid Cymru.

The pandemic continued to affect our normal working arrangements during this period. Although we heard less about leaving the European Union, the effect of the rising cost-of-living crisis has come to the fore. Despite all of these changes, our work, come what may, was to respond to the challenges and opportunities that arose in order to increase the number of Welsh speakers, and more importantly, to increase daily use of our language.

This was another busy year in the area of language policy as we worked across Government and with various partners the length and breadth of the country and beyond. And today, Dirprwy Lywydd, is an opportunity for me to thank everyone who worked with us throughout the year. I must mention our grant partners who worked tirelessly and energetically to support us to deliver 'Cymraeg 2050'. Following a busy period of providing opportunities for us to use the Welsh language remotely, they have all been working to rebuild, have continued to innovate, and have kept many of the best practices developed during the national lockdowns. You will find details of much of this work in the report.

Now, I turn to some of the highlights of the year in question. We consulted upon the Welsh language communities housing plan—an ambitious plan that extends across the entire Government and works alongside other new tax and planning policies.

Next week, I will launch the final plan, and I will share the details with you in due course. However, it's fair to say that it's an innovative plan that will make a very real difference to people's lives, to communities, and indeed to our language, in all parts of the country. The new commission for Welsh-speaking communities will challenge us as we deliver the plan, and will support us to benefit those areas considered to be Welsh-speaking heartlands.

The new 10-year Welsh in education strategic plans came into force recently. Dirprwy Lywydd, this didn't happen overnight. A great deal of preparatory work was done during the reporting year as we held sessions to support local authorities and worked with them to refine their draft plans, and published guidance on categorising schools according to their Welsh-medium provision. Now, publishing the plans is but a first step; we will work closely with local authorities and schools to support them to increase Welsh language provision across Wales.

During the reporting year, we also announced our intention to provide new funding in order to, first, offer free Welsh lessons to all those between 16 and 25 years old and the teaching workforce, in order to, first, give everyone a second chance. Some will learn for the first time and others will gain confidence in their skills. And this was done as part of the co-operation agreement, and everyone will contribute to the one million and to doubling the use of the language. Secondly, funding was allocated to extend Welsh language late immersion support for every local authority during the reporting year and beyond. And this will allow so many more children to access our Welsh-medium education system.

In May this year, I announced the Welsh in education workforce plan, and detailed preparation work was undertaken during the reporting year. This is a difficult and challenging area. The plan therefore calls for radical and innovative action by many of us. Towards the end of the reporting period, I announced our intention to set up a company limited by guarantee, called Adnodd. It will work to ensure that sufficient Welsh-medium and bilingual resources are available to support the new curriculum.

During the reporting year, detailed work was undertaken to prepare standards for health regulators. This led to laying the regulations before the Senedd in July of this year, so that they may come into effect on 31 October. I discussed the Welsh language on a British-Irish Council level, with fellow Ministers, and with leaders of the member states at a summit in St Fagans. Hearing national leaders discussing the Welsh language, and indeed using the Welsh language and their own languages at the highest level, was significant and very satisfying.

In February, on Anglesey, I gave a speech under the title 'Cymraeg belongs to us all', where I shared my vision for the language, to mark 60 years since Saunders Lewis delivered his famous 'Tynged yr Iaith' lecture, in 1962. Here are some of the key messages. I want us to remember that the Welsh language, and the responsibility for acting to protect it, belongs to us all. Everyone has their role, regardless of where they live or how much Welsh they have. I want to see more organisations and public leaders taking responsibility for the language too. Our Leading in a Bilingual Country programme is one way of delivering this. And we as a whole Government will ensure that the Welsh language is always considered in the work of each team and department across the organisation. I have established a series of Cabinet meetings over the duration of this Senedd term to discuss with my fellow Ministers what more they can do to contribute to the delivery of 'Cymraeg 2050' in their policy areas.

Dirprwy Lywydd, in looking to the future, we await the 2021 census results in relation to the Welsh language—before Christmas, hopefully. We will scrutinise the results before adjusting our targets and the trajectory towards a million Welsh speakers, as needed. I have spoken today about the global challenges affecting Wales. So now, more than ever, I'm calling on everyone to pull together. We must work together, offer a helping hand when challenges and opportunities arise, and learn from each other. We must welcome everyone from all backgrounds to join us on our journey towards the million. Most importantly, we must remember that all of us have the responsibility and ability—as individuals and organisations—to work together to ensure a prosperous future for the Welsh language. Cymraeg belongs to us all.

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd, and I thank the Minister for giving me an advance look at his annual report on 'Cymraeg 2050', and also for the statement this afternoon.

From the outset, the Minister will be aware of my concerns about the accountability of this programme. As I have said in this Chamber previously, it is possible that neither he nor I will be in this Chamber in 28 years' time, so the question must be asked as to who will be accountable if this ambitious target is not reached. Having said that, the actions that have been taken over the last financial year reflect the ambition and intention that we need to reach that important target.

I am aware that we are still waiting for the publication of the 2021 census data—before Christmas, I think—but without jumping ahead, I'd like to hear, and would be interested to know whether the Minister knows about the projections for the total number of Welsh speakers in Wales. A central part of boosting the numbers, of course, is Welsh language education, and specifically from an early age. Despite the increase in opportunities for Mudiad Meithrin, I am concerned that the number of children who are attending cylch meithrin remains much lower than the levels seen before the pandemic. In light of this, what action is the Minister taking to ensure that attendance is higher than present levels by the next report?

Finally, teaching Mudiad Meithrin classes—Welsh education in general—is of course crucial to the success of your 'Cymraeg 2050' programme. Could you outline what steps are being taken to recruit more teachers who can teach fluently in Welsh, and have these numbers increased since the 'Cymraeg 2050' programme was launched? What are the KPIs and targets to ensure that we have enough teachers able to teach in the Welsh language to meet the demand that the Government's programme will hopefully create? If we want to realise this policy, 'Cymraeg 2050' must be part of a wider programme that not only strengthens our identity here in Wales, but also incorporates our unique place within the United Kingdom.

And you are right, Minister; the Welsh language belongs to us all, whatever your background, your identity or your politics, it has the ability to bind us all together, ensuring that our culture, our communities and our traditions can grow and flourish. Therefore, all of us in the Chamber have a duty to ensure that this programme has every chance of being successful. Thank you very much.

I thank Sam Kurtz for those questions. May I echo and identify myself with the final comment he made in his contribution? Everyone has an opportunity but also a responsibility to ensure that we do our very best for the Welsh language, and we have a plan here that lays the foundations for that.

He opened his contribution by asking about accountability. I wasn't quite sure if he was expressing his hope that I would still be Minister for the Welsh language in 2050—I didn't quite know if that's what he was asking. But on that theme, there are numerous opportunities—. This experience is one of the ways in which we are accountable for progress in this policy area. Figures are regularly published in terms of where we are on language use. Of course, as we've chosen the census as a means of measuring progress in the number of speakers, that happens on a 10-year basis, but we will see later this year what the figures are.

And within the broader 2050 plan, he mentioned how important it is to see this programme as part of a broader range of programmes related to the prosperity of the language in all of those. There are KPIs so that we as Ministers, as a Senedd, and as a nation can see where we are on that journey. For example, he asked the question as to where we are in terms of recruitment. We have a 10-year plan. We announced our projections in terms of what will be needed in terms of teacher numbers and the numbers qualifying, so those figures are publicly available and we are accountable for that. But I will also, within the 10-year plan, give a two-year update on where we are in terms of the impact of that specific scheme, and I hope to do that at a local authority level so that we can see the distribution of progress, hopefully, in terms of recruitment through that plan. I agree with him; it is truly important that we do secure opportunities to be accountable, and I'm sure that those are in place. 

In terms of investment in the early years, I agree with him that it's important that we do ensure that more and more children take the opportunity to access early years education through the medium of Welsh. We've reached the target of establishing 40 new groups during the first three years of the Set Up and Succeed programme, despite the impact of COVID. Twelve new provisions were provided during 2021-22 as part of the wider target of increasing provision during this Senedd term. So, we are on track in terms of early years too. 

Thank you, Minister, for the statement. I'd like to echo your thanks to everyone who is associated with the statistics within this report. It shows partnership across Wales, and that's something to be proud of. I'm sure that we can all agree also that Wales has a long and proud history and that our language, which is thriving today, is a central part of our identity and has survived despite the barriers that it has faced over the centuries. The language is, and we are, 'yma o hyd', in the words of Dafydd Iwan and, as you've already said, the language belongs to everyone in Wales, whether they speak it or not. 

There are so many things, of course, to celebrate in this report. The number of individuals who continue to learn Welsh beyond entry level is rising, and the Cymraeg for Kids programme and the Mudiad Meithrin are expanding. It's great to see more and more people are learning Welsh and looking for opportunities to use it. The future of the language is a hopeful one, although, as you've said, major challenges remain if we want to realise the target of 1 million speakers and increase everyday use.

As you also mentioned in your statement, the co-operation agreement between Plaid Cymru and the Welsh Government includes a number of commitments regarding the Welsh language in order to strengthen our language and our culture, and specifically access to and use of the language. And this is, of course, the first report to include a reference to the agreement and to note initial progress. Through the fact that we are co-operating, I hope that we can make progress in a number of important areas for the life of the agreement and beyond, creating favourable conditions for the language. Furthermore, work is under way to strengthen the Welsh language standards, which are so important, and, more importantly, the Welsh language education Bill is on the way, a Bill that will determine the future of the language for generations to come.

As is also clear in the report, if we want to realise the vision for the Welsh language, every department in the Government has an important contribution to make, along with individuals and organisations throughout Wales. And you note in your statement that you want to see more institutions and public leaders taking responsibility for the language. One group of important stakeholders, of course, is the leaders of local government throughout Wales, and we must concede that, despite the fact that some progress can be seen in the Welsh in education strategic plans, some councils continue, in my opinion, to lack ambition or decisive action in terms of how they are going to play their part. This is particularly true in some areas where we continue to see plans in place to invest in English-medium schools, disregarding local requests to introduce a Welsh stream in these new schools. You will be aware of a proposed example of this in my region, where there is still an emphasis on meeting demand rather than creating or supporting demand. I therefore look forward to an update from you and the designated members of Plaid Cymru as work progresses on the Welsh language education Bill. A core part of this will, of course, be the use of the Welsh language in English-medium schools and moving these schools along the language continuum. The next decade will be essential if we are to make this a reality.

I would like to ask you about two specific elements of the report: first, late immersion. The progress here is undoubtedly to be welcomed, and it's good to see that there will be further investment. The emphasis in the report is on late immersion or immersion for latecomers, but one issue that has been raised with me is the need for places for immersion for children who may have fallen behind in terms of the Welsh language due to COVID, who are now in years 4, 5 and 6 and whose parents have moved them—or are seriously considering moving them—to English-medium schools, fearing that their children are not achieving as they should. Is immersion available to them, and is this being offered throughout Wales if parents or carers apply to move their children from Welsh-medium to English-medium education? Is work being done to understand why this change is happening and if lack of provision in terms of immersion or additional learning needs is a factor?

I also welcome in the report the emphasis on the importance of post-compulsory Welsh-medium and bilingual education. Without a doubt, expanding the use of the Welsh language in this sector is absolutely essential. You make reference to a budget in terms of Welsh-medium or bilingual apprenticeships in the report. May I ask what percentage of the budget for apprenticeships this represents, Minister, and whether there is any intention to increase this investment?

Like you, I am eager to see the results of the census, although I'm also hesitant. What is clear from this report is that we still do not fully understand the impact of COVID on the Welsh language, whether it be positive or not, nor what the impact of the cost-of-living crisis will be in terms of equitable access to the Welsh language. What I can guarantee you, Minister, is that we as a party take our responsibilities seriously in terms of the language, and the target of a million speakers, and are very willing to continue co-operating with you on this.

I thank Heledd Fychan for those questions and the welcome that she’s given to this afternoon’s statement and to the report for the first reporting year.

In terms of the strategic plans, I would say that much ambition has been demonstrated by each and every authority, so I don’t agree with her description in her question that there has been a lack of ambition. But it’s also certain that we don’t just need ambition in terms of the plan and the statement; we need progress on the ground too, not just ambition and words. That’s certainly true. It’s my intention over the next few weeks to have meetings with every leader in Wales and the cabinet members for education and the Welsh language, so that we understand what’s happening in terms of delivering the WESPs that they have and that I, as Minister, have an opportunity to set out my expectations within the plans agreed. Certainly, those discussions will be constructive and positive. 

In terms of investment in the Welsh-medium estate, I’ve already said in this Chamber that I expect to see progress in terms of WESPs working jointly with the broader investment in the school estate in all parts of Wales, and that will be one of the criteria that I use as a Minister to ensure that we take full account of the responsibilities and commitments of local authorities within the WESPs. It is important that each and every one of us, but also our partners in local government too, promote the benefits of Welsh-medium education—not just meeting demand, but also stimulating demand for Welsh-medium education.

Much of the focus in terms of the WESPs has been on the number of new Welsh-medium schools to be opened over the decade, but many schools mention that they intend to move along the linguistic continuum in terms of categorisation, which is important and the Member acknowledged that in her question.

In terms of the specific points, she raised immersion. Every authority in Wales has applied for an immersion budget. And £2.2 million has already been allocated and another £6.6 million has been allocated until the end of this Senedd term. Each authority has submitted bids. As you would expect, that looks different in different parts of Wales. Every authority is at a different point in their journey towards immersion, but I do share with her the support for immersion here in Wales. It’s a unique way for us in Wales to deliver what we do deliver. It’s something to be celebrated. It’s certainly true that many areas in Wales can learn from others who have been providing immersion over a longer period of time. So, I’m confident that local authorities will take advantage of that, and I agree with her on the importance of investment in Welsh-language opportunities in the post-16 sector. This is an important part of the legislation that we as a Senedd passed at the end of the summer term, and also an important part of the co-operation agreement, including the further investment in the Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol, which does a lot of good work in the post-16 sector, including apprenticeships.

I thank the Minister for the statement this afternoon, and I also thank the Minister for his leadership in this policy area. I spent some time in the Eisteddfod over the summer, and I was very impressed with the way in which you led the discussion, but also the tone that you've adopted in leading on this here. Sometimes, the tone of the discussion can be just as important as the policies that you've been leading on. I think that's very important.

It has been quite a debate this afternoon in terms of the census, and I think we are all looking forward to seeing the results of that as they're published in the coming weeks. What do you expect to see when it is published. What are your expectations?

The second question that I have is about the emphasis in terms of regulation and promotion of the Welsh language. You know that I think that the standards that we have do reflect too much bureaucracy and the language sometimes is used as something that we regulate rather than something that we use and speak. To me, the important thing that we need to do is to promote the use of the Welsh language. So, how do you see the balance in that context, and how do you intend to promote the use of the Welsh language instead of insisting that there is no use of the Welsh language through too much bureaucracy?

I thank Alun Davies for those questions and for his contribution towards what we are discussing today. We wouldn't be having this discussion if it weren't for the work that he did as Minister for the Welsh language. In terms of our expectations on the census, we will have to wait and see what those results are. It's a little early for us to predict how those will go. We hope to have those figures by the end of the year. Then we will have to carefully assess those figures.

It's five years since the new strategy came into place, as the Member will know, which is half the period since the last census. For half of that time, we've been living under COVID, so that's the context in terms of policy impact and the figures that we will see in the coming weeks. But, from the census results already published, we have seen that there's been a reduction in the population in those areas of Wales considered to be Welsh-speaking heartlands—that's Gwynedd and Ceredigion, for example—and, clearly, we would expect that to have an impact on the figures that we will see before the end of the year, hopefully—I hope that's when they'll be published.

What I can say quite clearly is that we are fully committed to the strategy and to ensuring not just that we grow the numbers of people are able to speak Welsh, but also use the Welsh language.

In terms of the balance between promotion and regulation, well, we certainly won't regulate our way to a prosperous Welsh language. We have to have a balance. Standards have a role to play, but promotion also has an important role to play, and we need to ensure that people have easy access to the Welsh language and opportunities to use the language.

I thank him for his comments regarding tone. I am entirely convinced that we won't deliver against our ambition if the Welsh language is a cause of debate and argument. Everyone in this Chamber is committed to the concept that the Welsh language belongs to us all. That's the mindset that will ensure, however much Welsh you have, you use it as much as you can as often as you can. And that creates a context that encourages others to learn and, importantly, encourages others to use the Welsh language.

And finally, Huw Irranca-Davies.

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd, and I agree with my friend and colleague Alun Davies in terms of the tone and the message. Minister, I welcome the statement today and the continuing efforts of the Welsh Government to create a living language in Wales that is part of our day-to-day life—in our work, at play and all around us. Proof of success in this area will be helping more and more pupils in Wales to access Welsh-medium education as a natural and easy choice. In Ogmore, which has two local councils, this will mean greater and greater cross-border co-operation on school travel, working together on the location of secondary schools, and making sure that our Welsh schools are as modern and as excellent as any other school, as part of the twenty-first century schools programme. So, Minister, could I ask you: how can you help local councils to work together better so that we can extend the reach of Welsh-language education deeper and deeper into all our communities?

I thank Huw Irranca-Davies for the question and the example that he's given to Welsh-language learners in using Welsh in the Chamber today. The point that he made is an important one: that we do need to collaborate regionally in order to ensure the success of the WESPs. There's an example in Merthyr, for example, where Merthyr and nearby councils are collaborating on the feasibility of a secondary school, so there are examples already within the WESPs.

The point that he made on transport is very important I think, because, in many areas of Wales, the closest Welsh-medium school won't be in the county you live in—it happens. I went to Ystalyfera and there were a number of children coming from Cwmtwrch in Powys, over the border, because that was the nearest Welsh-language school, and we must ensure that they're not deprived of the opportunity to receive Welsh-medium education because of those borders and boundaries. So, I will want to discuss with leaders during the next few weeks where those examples are, because they are very specific. We know where it happens. It doesn't happen everywhere, but it is specific to certain communities in certain parts of Wales. I want to discuss with them what more we can do to ensure that that doesn't happen in those communities—that people have equal access to Welsh-medium education wherever they live.

Thank you, Minister.

The next item is a statement by the Deputy Minister for Arts and Sport on world heritage in north-west Wales. And I call on the Deputy Minister to make the statement. Dawn Bowden.

Diolch yn fawr, Dirprwy Lywydd. Last year, Senedd Members joined with communities across north-west Wales to celebrate the inscription of tirwedd llechi gogledd-orllewin Cymru, the slate landscape of north-west Wales, on the UNESCO world heritage site list. The Welsh Government successfully delivered our programme for government commitment to support the inscription of the slate landscape world heritage site. It was a moment of celebration that marked the culmination of many years of hard work by a partnership led by Gwynedd Council, with support from Snowdonia National Park Authority and Welsh Government.

That partnership is notable for its range. It includes Cadw, the National Trust, as well as two heritage bodies sponsored by Welsh Government—that's Amgueddfa Cymru and the Royal Commission on the Ancient and Historical Monuments—alongside representatives from industry and the private sector, including quarry owners, tourism operators and, of course, local community groups.

Inscription is an achievement that marks the start of a new challenge: to manage and care for the world heritage site on behalf of future generations. So, one year on is a good time to reflect on what has been achieved and what world heritage means for Wales. 

It's 50 years since UNESCO established the world heritage site convention, which recognises that some heritage has such importance that it transcends national boundaries to speak to all humanity. These buildings, monuments and landscapes say something fundamental about us, about where we come from and the world that we inhabit. The convention has been ratified by over 190 nations, includes more than 1,000 sites and is recognised by millions of people. The protection, conservation and preservation of our world heritage sites, and their transmission to future generations, is an important duty for society today.

We're proud to have responsibility for four world heritage sites in Wales, with two in the north-west: the slate landscape and the castles of Edward I. Three of those sites recognise our pivotal role in the industrial revolution, a time when our country experienced an unprecedented period of transformation and our iron, steel and slate, as well as mining and engineering expertise, contributed to the building of cities and towns across the globe.

Today, world heritage plays an important role in our tourism economy, drawing thousands of visitors here each year. But we should not overlook its wider benefits; in particular, community pride, well-being and a sense of place.

The slate landscape nomination was notable for its community involvement. The Heritage Lottery-funded LleCHI project supported young people from the region to play a leading role investigating and interpreting their heritage and participating in the formal inscription assessment. That involvement bodes well for the future.

So, what has happened since inscription? Well, firstly, the partnership management plan is being implemented. The two local planning authorities have adopted supplementary planning guidance and published community style guides in Welsh and English to assist residents, developers and the construction industry to play their parts in the sustainable management of historic properties within the site.

Partners continue to play an active role. Cadw’s designation work is nearly complete, and its focus has now turned to conservation. Cadw grants are supporting work at the engine house in the Dorothea quarry, while last year the National Lottery Heritage Fund announced a £3.1 million grant for the Ffestiniog and Welsh Highland Railways, one of the core partners in the site, to restore its buildings at Boston Lodge.

An important responsibility for world heritage managers is to transmit the values of the sites through education and interpretation, and here also good progress has been made. A Welsh Government grant of £150,000 has funded unified signage and interpretation across the world heritage site. Work is also progressing on developing a comprehensive community engagement, interpretation and visitor management plan, supported by £128,000 development funding from the National Lottery. Alongside this, Amgueddfa Cymru is developing proposals for the redevelopment of the National Slate Museum, with the museum of north Wales forming part of this.

I started by reminding us that there are two world heritage sites in north-west Wales. The castles and town walls of King Edward in Gwynedd were the first world heritage site to be inscribed in Wales and are an interesting illustration of the broader objectives of world heritage, which are not, as some people think, simply to celebrate heritage, but rather to recognise sites of historic importance and to provide opportunities to learn from them.

The four castles that make up the world heritage site have complex histories that raise important questions about events that shaped our nation. These were originally English castles, built by Edward I to control people reeling from the loss of their prince, Llywelyn ap Gruffudd, and inevitably raise a lot of powerful emotions. That medieval annexation has resonated for centuries and it's important that our management and presentation of these castles, in particular of Caernarfon castle, recognise all aspects of that history and what it means for people today.

Later this month, I will be visiting Caernarfon to open the new King’s gatehouse project that Cadw has delivered. This is a £5 million investment that will enable visitors to experience rooms within the castle that have been inaccessible for centuries and to access the top floor of the gatehouse by lift. For the first time, there will be access for all visitors to the medieval hall on the uppermost level, which was designed, but never completed. Accompanying this is new interpretation that reflects honestly the challenging history of the castle, using a combination of narrative and sculpture to help visitors consider its role in the past and today. While meeting our obligation to conserve our world heritage, this investment will also make a vital contribution to the region’s economy.

I end by taking this opportunity to thank all organisations, individuals and communities who manage our world heritage sites on behalf of us all. It is through their efforts that we fulfil our obligations under the convention to care for these sites on behalf of future generations, both here in Wales and across the world. 

May I thank the Deputy Minister for her statement? We all know of the importance and historic nature of our heritage sites across north-west Wales. Of the four world heritage sites in Wales, two of them are in north-west Wales, and I and my party are proud of the rich cultural history of Wales.

The two world heritage sites located in north-west Wales, as you said, are the slate landscape of north-west Wales and the castles and town walls of Edward I. Visitors and local people who come to the area can visit the National Slate Museum, which celebrated its fiftieth anniversary back in May, at the Dinorwig quarry, to learn of its unbeatable history, while the Ffestiniog railway takes people along the 200-year-old rail line.

I welcome the £150,000 to provide unified signage and interpretation across the world heritage site, but can the Deputy Minister outline how the £128,000 from the National Lottery for engagement and the visitor management programme is being implemented? How will this be measured, and is there a target here in terms of visitor levels to the area? Given the site’s history, how will the money for community engagement be spent to ensure that families, visitors and schools understand the cultural significance of north-west Wales?

The world’s fastest zipline is now situated over Penrhyn quarry, with attractions located within the slate mines at Blaenau Ffestiniog—attractions within the world heritage site bringing over a million visitors each year. Since the creation of ZipWorld in 2013, over 400,000 visitors have visited the attractions annually, according to the latest figures published in 2019. There’s been significant investment in this area, with ZipWorld thought to have brought in over £250 million to north Wales’s economy. A review into the impact of the attraction by North Wales Tourism in 2018 found that visitors had the best experience in the cavern attraction. In the same year, there were 152,903 visits, precisely, to the National Slate Museum located in Dinorwig quarry. The castles of King Edward I brought in almost 600,000 visitors between them in 2019. So, can I ask, Deputy Minister, how will we ensure that visitor levels remain as high as that, and as high as they possibly can be? What is Visit Wales doing to promote those particular areas?

As you spoke about the heritage of north-west Wales, I was disappointed not to hear any mention or reference to our sporting heritage in north-west Wales, with famous sportspeople like Wayne Hennessey and George North honing their skills in north-west Wales—and they’ve gone on to represent our country with distinction in their respective sports. So, I’d hoped we’d have heard something from the Minister today to recognise their impact in inspiring future sporting stars in north-west Wales. With that in mind, Deputy Minister, what steps are you taking to recognise their contributions to Welsh sporting heritage, and also to improve facilities locally to secure the sporting stars of the future?

As the Deputy Minister mentioned, you’ll no doubt be aware that our castles are truly world renowned, and that’s certainly the case for those in north and north-west Wales. Gwrych castle in Conwy county has found new-found fame over the last couple of years, with it being home to ITV’s I’m a Celebrity…Get Me Out of Here! Thousands of additional visitors, including Sam Rowlands, I think, have been to see Gwrych castle in recent years, in all its glory.

The Deputy Minister, I’m sure, will be mindful of the fact that we can’t talk about the heritage of our areas without talking about tourism. Caernarfon castle was used by the monarchy in 1911 and 1969 for the investiture of the Princes of Wales, and the one in 1969, for the now King Charles, was seen by 19 million people across Great Britain and a further 500 million across the world. That was selling our country to the world with our world heritage. Blaenau Ffestiniog’s historic railway was voted Europe’s best scenic railway earlier this year, and the slate landscape of north-west Wales became our fourth heritage site in July 2021, following a wonderful effort spanning a 15-year campaign.

Those are just some of the areas with significant importance, but what do they all have in common? They rely on visitors from around the world. But unfortunately, the Welsh Government wants to impose a tourism tax on these areas—an industry-killing tourism tax. That's the real threat that these sites and other important heritage sites across north-west Wales and beyond are facing. Therefore, Deputy Minister, could you outline what discussions you've had with either the Minister for finance or the Minister for Economy about the impact that this industry-killing tax will have on these sites and the heritage industry across north-west Wales? Thank you.

Can I thank Tom Giffard for those comments and those questions? If I start with his first comments around the engagement and visitor management programme, that's something that we're clearly continuing to engage on with the local community, with the museum of north Wales and the slate landscape management organisations, including Gwynedd Council, Snowdonia national park and so on. So, there will be ongoing engagement with those organisations that will be delivering that engagement, and I would hope to be able to come back to you at some point in the not-too-distant future with an update on how that has worked in practice and what the level of visitor engagement has been for that. 

You make a number of other points about heritage and tourism in the area, and you quite rightly point to the fact that we have two significant world heritage sites—not only the slate landscapes, but the castles of King Edward and so on. What we do know is that those sites attract somewhere in the region of 500,000 to 600,000 visitors a year. Certainly what we are hoping is that the development that we've invested in at Caernarfon castle will see those visitor numbers increase. Part of the purpose of that development is to bring more visitors to that part of Wales, but it is also not to forget the story that we want Caernarfon castle to be telling. Part of that investment is about telling that story and for people to see that story with warts and all, in all its honesty, and through all of the turbulent times of the history of that castle. But, let's not forget that over that castle today flies the Welsh flag, and, of course, that is the important end role in the history of Caernarfon castle.

In terms of the comments about the zip wire, obviously that is a huge tourist attraction again in that area. It sits within the heritage landscape, so we are working very closely with the owners of the zip wire so that they can work to develop their offer and their site whilst at the same time having a sympathetic approach to what is an attraction that sits in the middle of what is now a world heritage landscape.

You quite rightly point to the issues around sporting heritage. I'm very grateful to Sam Rowlands, who is bringing a debate tomorrow, actually, on that, and I'll be responding to that. So, maybe some of the questions that you've raised will be answered in the response to that debate. But, you're absolutely right: our sporting heritage is something to be very proud of, and the north Wales sporting heritage in particular has a lot to shout about. I will say more about that tomorrow in response to Sam's debate. My statement today was very specifically about the slate landscapes and about Caernarfon castle. 

In terms of the tourism levy, I take my hat off to Tom and to all of his Conservative colleagues who seek to raise this issue of the tourism levy at each and every opportunity that they have. It's what you do; you're the opposition, and I understand that that's what you need to do. Obviously, we want to see a thriving tourism industry, of course we do, and we want to see that strong recovery from the pandemic. It needs to be reiterated again and again—because it has been said many times—that the visitor levy will be a discretionary levy for local authorities to determine for themselves whether they feel that a very small proportion of visitor spend in their area is taken in a tourism levy that will help to develop tourism in that area.

I just recently came back from Italy. I went to Italy on holiday in the summer, and I was very fortunate to get to the world heritage vineyard landscape of Piedmont in the north of Italy. It was very difficult to drag myself away from it—it was beautiful—but I happily paid a tourism levy when I was there, as I normally do in any of the holiday locations that I go to. As colleagues will be aware, the Women’s Rugby World Cup starts next week in New Zealand and, as sports Minister, I will be going out to New Zealand to offer the support of the Government and the Welsh nation to our women playing rugby out there. I've just had to apply for a visa to enter New Zealand and, lo and behold, when applying for that visa I also had to pay an £18 tourism levy. That's just the way it is. There are more than 40 countries and holiday destinations around the world that have a visitor levy, and I think if the visitor levy was as destructive as you suggest it might be, most of those countries would have abandoned it by now.

Thank you, Deputy Minister, for this afternoon's statement.

If I may start with the last point, I agree with the Deputy Minister—I think it's a fallacy to keep saying that the tourism tax will put people off coming to Wales. Actually, the real threat to tourism in north Wales and Wales as a whole is rising energy costs impacting businesses and the cost-of-living crisis meaning that people won't be able to go on holiday. Because, as we know, holidays within Wales are really important, and we're seeing the hardship on families. Also, we know that local authorities will be impacted. There is an opportunity to use this tax to invest in vital infrastructure so that we can support tourism. I just wanted to put my point on record there.

As you've mentioned, Minister, it is really important that we take stock, because of the 15 years of preparation for that successful bid a year ago, and so much to celebrate. Because when you consider the history, slate has been quarried in the area for over 1,800 years, and it's during the industrial revolution that demand surged and slate from Gwynedd was widely used and transported across the world. It's still highly regarded to this day. It's still a live industry and, different from what we see in Big Pit and so on, where it's an industry of the past, obviously, this is an industry that still sustains the local economy. So, it is important that we look at it in that context. Obviously, that provides challenges to the local authority in particular, in terms of how you support an industry whilst maintaining that industrial landscape.

I noticed that Tom Giffard also mentioned that the National Slate Museum is celebrating 50 years this year. I was pleased to see, yesterday on Twitter, that they’ve achieved over 4 million visitors during that time. It could be so much more than that, but the infrastructure is currently not in place. This also relates to the point around the castles in north Wales. When you look at visitors to Caernarfon at the moment, to Caernarfon castle in particular, many come by bus. They're doing a tour of the UK, and perhaps will only come to north Wales on a day-long tour. So, one of the things I would like to ask is: how are you investing so that we have the infrastructure there locally to ensure that more visitors stay and spend money in the area, and also have an opportunity to immerse themselves in the Welsh language and culture—that it's not just something that they get through visiting the castle or whatever other attraction, that they actually get that opportunity to immerse themselves in a way that also supports local businesses?

I'd also like to ask you specifically if you could clarify what you mean by 'the museum of north Wales'. It seems to me, from the wording of your statement, that this is something distinct from the redevelopment of the National Slate Museum. There is some confusion amongst local stakeholders and also the museum sector as a whole in terms of what you mean by 'the museum of north Wales'. Is this something that is being developed as Welsh Government's vision for the site, or something for Amgueddfa Cymru? Because, after all, the story of slate is a national story, so I'm keen that we are able to see the redevelopment of the National Slate Museum in terms of that national context. I do express concern about that use of 'museum of north Wales' rather than having that national story. In the same vein, I wonder if you could outline what financial support is being provided to Amgueddfa Cymru to realise the ambitions of that redevelopment.

There are so many things that we must welcome in terms of that world heritage status, but obviously the challenge will be ensuring that the funding is in place for the local authority and local partners, in light of the cost-of-living crisis. Therefore, can I ask what is that strategic vision and plan to ensure that we take every advantage possible? I see that there is some development, but is this going to be an ongoing conversation with support and strategy from the Welsh Government?

Diolch, Heledd. Can I start by agreeing absolutely with your opening remarks about how the threat to tourism and the visitor economy at the moment is the cost-of-living crisis? I think most of our tourism partners and stakeholders would tell us that. Myself and the Minister for Economy regularly meet with tourism stakeholders, and that is one of the issues that they tell us, not just in terms of them running their businesses and the additional costs and the threats to their businesses for that, but actually the cost to visitors to come here, because that is one of the things that gets knocked off the list when people are thinking about essential spend. So, I absolutely agree with you on that. 

In terms of the slate heritage, again I agree. The slate industry has been described as the most Welsh of industries. Nearly all the workers were native to the region, they were from within Wales, the Welsh language was used consistently at all levels of the workforce and management, and that is still the case today. So, I think very much that is something that is important to recognise and is important to embed in the visitor offer. The visitor offer has to embed the Welsh language as being part of your experience of travelling to and visiting that part of north-west Wales. That is very much something that I know that Gwynedd Council and Snowdonia national park, who are partners in the development of the landscape, are very keen to ensure happens, and it's written into their development plans.

On the infrastructure, again, there is nothing I would argue with you on that. The infrastructure is much wider than anything within my brief, because that is a huge question, which involves my colleagues in other ministries, but one of the things that I could say is that that is something very much that a tourism levy could assist with, in terms of the infrastructure—it would help to develop an area for tourism. But the infrastructure in terms of how those tourist attractions are developed is very much the responsibility of the local authority, and I guess that is one of the things that they will be taking on board and they will be thinking about when they decide whether or not they would want to have a tourism levy in that area. 

Just to come back to your point about Welsh language and culture, the world heritage site nomination—not necessarily now about the tourist attraction, but the world heritage site nomination—recognised the importance of the Welsh language and culture. The steering board and the board meetings for the heritage site are all held in Welsh, and the language remains central with the community engagement and ambassador schemes. I would not be fearful of any threat or concern around the development and the promotion of the Welsh language in that area.

To come back, then, to your final point, which I think is a very valid point, about the north Wales museum and the slate museum and their interaction and their relationship, the development of the museum of north Wales, as you know, was a significant programme for government commitment, as is the redevelopment of the National Slate Museum site at Llanberis. To be clear, Heledd, because it may not have been in my statement, the redevelopment of the museum will focus on providing new, improved visitor welcome facilities, education facilities and community facilities to support the international profile that the UNESCO world heritage site will bring. But the redeveloped museum will become the north Wales headquarters for Amgueddfa Cymru. So, that will house displays of extensive collections of art, natural science, history and archaeology from the region that are currently held in other parts of Wales. So, it is about transferring that to north Wales. And it's hoped that the redeveloped museum will then become a hub for other cultural and heritage offers across the region. 

In terms of where we're going with that, work is under way on a feasibility study, which will include presenting proposals for how a museum of north Wales and the enhanced role for the National Slate Museum will be delivered. Amgueddfa Cymru has established an internal steering group now to develop that project, and a project director has recently been appointed to lead on that. And I know that Amgueddfa Cymru has engaged with the local community and visitors to the site, as well as museums and cultural organisations across Wales, and they're continuing to gather feedback on how that site, both the slate museum and the north Wales museum, should be developed.

I welcome the statement and the investment in the area, and I'm proud to say that north Wales now has three world heritage sites, including the Pontcysyllte aqueduct, which is fantastic. And I'm looking forward to the creation of the new national park as well. The Clwydian Range and Dee Valley area of outstanding natural beauty was designated thus because of its built heritage, its castles and its iron age hill forts and abbey as well. So, there's a lot of heritage in north Wales, which is fantastic. 

I think you've answered some of the questions that I was going to ask, because Heledd has raised them already, but I am concerned about the squeeze on public funding. You've worked with partners on this, but going forward on the programme for government and all the things that are in there, like the national museum for north Wales—that's just been mentioned—Theatr Clwyd, the AONB being designated a national park, all these things that come under culture and heritage in your portfolio, I'm just a bit worried about whether you'll be able to carry on delivering them with this squeeze on public service funding. Thank you. 

Thank you, Carolyn, for those questions. You're absolutely right, the squeeze on public funding and the challenge to us is not insignificant and is a real danger. What I can say to you is that the programme for government commitments that we have made in the areas that you have outlined—so, the national museum of Wales, the development of that national museum, Theatr Clwyd, the football museum in north Wales, of course, which is very relevant at the moment, and all those other cultural commitments in our programme for government, we are committed to delivering.

What we do know, however, is that the value of our budget is now considerably less than it was, because at the time when our budget was allocated, we had inflation running at a very, very low level. We now have inflation running at closer to 10 per cent, and you don't have to be an economist to know that what that means is, for the same amount of money, you've got less buck to buy stuff. So, the value of our budget is far less than it was when it was allocated, and that will present challenges, there is no doubt. And we know that Theatr Clwyd are experiencing challenges with rising construction costs around their redevelopment and how all of that is going to be met. But what I can say to you absolutely from here today is that our commitment to those programme for government promises, the manifesto promises and the areas of the culture portfolio that were included are still very much on track. Thank you.  

I thank you, Deputy Minister, for bringing forward today's statement on world heritage in north-west Wales—of course, one half of a fantastic region in north Wales. As you outlined, it is really encouraging to see the slate landscape of north-west Wales being inscribed on the UNESCO world heritage site list. And I'd also like to put on record my thanks to all the organisations, individuals and communities who have helped to make this happen. And, as already outlined, this newly found status is an excellent way to recognise the importance of our slate industry, and I was really glad to hear you talk about the important role that heritage plays in our tourism economy, bringing a number of benefits, attracting more visitors, boosting investment, creating jobs and, really importantly, telling an important part of our story as north Walians. It's this story that I want to focus on just for a moment, because that story is important for visitors but it's also really important for our local residents and our local communities to understand why the landscape looks the way that it does. And I reflect on my upbringing, living in Penygroes as a child up until nine years old, with the Nantlle Valley right on my doorstep, and perhaps not understanding or appreciating what all that meant. So, I wonder, Deputy Minister, how you will work with the Minister for education to ensure that our children in our local communities, where this world heritage status now is, also understand the importance of their heritage. And yes, for visitors to understand it well, but also, our local communities, and particularly our children in those communities.

Thank you, Sam, for that question. I think that's a very, very important point that you raise: our history, our heritage, how we've evolved, and why we are as we are today is hugely important, and it's something that children do need to understand and learn from a very early age. And that is one of the benefits that the new curriculum does give us; it gives us that flexibility to be able to introduce those kinds of things into the national curriculum. And I'll just give you an example. I was very proud to have been invited to an event at the National Museum Wales at Saint Fagan's recently, where a whole range of schools had been engaged in projects about their local communities, and that was a very good example of how you will engage very young children in finding out about their own area and bringing it to life, and they brought along their projects, and some of them won prizes and so on. And, you know, in the area that I represent, of course, a former coal-mining and iron industry, we see that as being hugely important to the culture of the area. So, I have no doubt that, when schools look at what the national curriculum will be able to deliver in those areas, that local history, that local culture, whether it is language, whether it is the industry, whether it is the topography, whatever it is in an area that has made that area what it is today will be included in a child's education. Not to do so would be quite scandalous, and I have every confidence that the new curriculum will allow us to do that.

Thank you to the Deputy Minister for this statement. This is excellent news, isn't it? It recognises the importance of an area, the landscape, the technology and the people in that part of Wales, not only for Welsh history, but for global history, and it demonstrates the history of an area going from an agricultural background to becoming industrial and now, it's post-industrial. And I look at Dwyfor Meirionnydd and the story of Bryn Eglwys quarry in Abergynolwyn and the Talyllyn railway, which is attached to that, the slate city of Blaenau Ffestiniog and the role of Bro Ffestiniog, and the port that took the slate to the world, to Australia, the United States, Denmark—that's Porthmadog, of course, and the role of Porthmadog in that history. It is something to be celebrated and we should ensure that we always remember it, and to take Sam's earlier point as to how children will benefit, we should put on record here the excellent work that this project did with Lle-CHI, ensuring that children benefited from learning about this in the area.

So, in terms of who benefits from this status, can I ask you what you will do to ensure—in terms of the income and the tourism benefit, what will you do to ensure that it's these communities that benefit economically from these investments and from the new UNESCO status?

Thank you, Mabon, for that question. I think that that's a hugely important point, developing these sites, having a world heritage site on our doorstep, an inscribed world heritage site—well, not just one, but four in Wales—two in that part of Wales, and everything that that brings. So, yes, it is about acknowledging and recognising our history and the importance of that history, not just to Wales but to the world, as you quite rightly pointed out, but it is about developing the economy of those areas, because these are post-industrial areas that have suffered heavily as a result of the loss of those industries. And, again, I refer to the area that I represent, after the coal and iron industries went—and my colleague here from Blaenau Gwent has a similar situation—we are still dealing with the legacy of post-industrial decline, so if we can develop tourism in an area like north-west Wales that shines a light on its history and brings people there to celebrate that history with us, then that has to be good for the local economy, and if the local economy is developing, then everybody benefits. What I can't say to you is in pounds, shillings and pence, how much everybody gets as a result of that. But if a local economy is thriving, then the people that live within that should be beneficiaries of that thriving economy, and that is the overall objective.

Deputy Minister, the culture committee visited Llanberis and the National Slate Museum in the spring, and we received presentations from people there about the work that was being done to support the world heritage status and how that's going to be built upon. I was hugely impressed by that work and hugely impressed by the presentations that we received. I was especially impressed by the way in which Dafydd Wigley was driving and leading much of this work, and he gave us an excellent presentation both on the structures they'd created, but also on how they were bringing people together and then achieving a shared ambition and vision. What was screaming out at me during that presentation was, 'Why can't we do this elsewhere?' You've already referred in a previous answer to our shared history in the Heads of the Valleys, the great industrial arc from Blaenavon across to Dowlais. And I'm asking the question again: if the model works in the north, why can't it work elsewhere? And perhaps how we can then bring together people to maximise the potential of our shared heritage and our shared history elsewhere in the country.

I think that, again, is a very valid point, Alun. I was just about to say that you have a world heritage site in your constituency, but, of course, it's not yours, is it, it's Lynne Neagle's—it's in Torfaen, in Blaenavon. But nevertheless, we have a world heritage site in the northern Valleys.

But I think if I go back to the point that Mabon was raising in his—we refer to the LleCHI project that was closely involved with the development of the inscription of the heritage landscape in north-west Wales. Those children were so closely involved in how that story was going to be told and how that site is to be developed, and if we are to learn the lessons of successful world heritage inscriptions, then, yes, we absolutely should be rolling that out elsewhere. It doesn't have to just be in world heritage sites. We know the kind of heritage and history and fabulous landscapes that we've got right the way across the Valleys—the Valleys Regional Park is an example. So, we need to draw down the best examples that we can for developing historical visitor attractions and historical landscapes in Wales and what works and roll that out across other sites. And in that respect, I absolutely agree with what you're saying.

Finally, Janet Finch-Saunders.

Thank you. Diolch, Llywydd. Thank you, Deputy Minister, for bringing forward your statement. It's very interesting, but being as the old chestnut came up of the tourism levy—or tourism tax is what it is really—would you not agree with me—? You've mentioned that you're going to New Zealand and you've been to Italy and it didn't affect or bother you paying a tourism levy, but let's be honest, the people of Wales have been facing a cost-of-living crisis for quite some time, because, in fact, the average median wage in Wales is considerably less than that in England. Now, a lot of our tourism in Wales is domestic tourism where people from one part of Wales like to go to another. So, how do I square up what you've just said? Let's be honest, we are Senedd Members on an allowance that is considerably higher than the median wage, so how do people, say, living in Blaenau Gwent, who may decide to come to Aberconwy—how do you think that they, with this new, other cost-of-living crisis—? [Interruption.] Hang on, I'm talking to the Deputy Minister. Compounded with the cost-of-living crisis we've seen for years in Wales and another one with the energy problems, how do you think that people on fixed or low incomes are really going to be able to afford a tourism tax? Thank you.

Janet, again, I take my hat off to you, I really do. For Conservative Members to stand up and stand there and talk about how sorry they feel for people who are hit by the cost-of-living crisis just absolutely beggars belief. Have you completely missed the damage that your Government has done over the last few days, let alone the last 12 years? So, when we want to talk about a cost-of-living crisis, let's just talk about the mini fiscal statement that was issued on Friday, which you've now had to do an about-turn on because it was so unpopular, about how your—[Interruption.]—how your Government—how your Government—has borrowed millions—[Interruption.]—has borrowed millions—to try to deal with the energy crisis, instead of taxing the energy companies who have returned record profits running into hundreds of billions of pounds. Instead, what your Government in the UK has done is landed the British people with debt for years to come. So, I'm not going to stand here and take any lessons from Conservatives about—[Interruption.] I am not going to take any lessons from any Conservative politician about the impacts of the cost-of-living crisis on people in Wales. Thank you.

Thank you to the Deputy Minister for that statement. And can I ask that you shout, on behalf of all 60 Members here, very loudly in support of the Welsh rugby women's team when you go to New Zealand in a few days' or weeks' time? Pob lwc. [Interruption.] When they reach the finals—and I said 'when' not 'if', Joyce—we will also ask the Deputy Minister to shout for them too.

Item 6 is next, a statement by the Minister for Climate Change on biodiversity. I call on Julie James to make the statement.

Diolch, Llywydd. Biodiversity loss and ecosystem collapse is a leading threat to humanity. The natural environment underpins our well-being and economic prosperity, yet our relationship with it is completely unsustainable. To ensure future generations are able to enjoy our beautiful natural heritage, we need to accelerate the actions we are taking to halt the decline in biodiversity. 

Over the summer, I've been working with a group of key experts and practitioners to undertake a biodiversity deep-dive to develop a set of collective actions we can take in Wales to support nature's recovery. The deep-dive was held ahead of a landmark United Nations Conference of the Parties, or COP15, in Canada in December, where global leaders will meet to agree targets for the next 10 years to combat the nature emergency.

Through the deep-dive, we identified key recommendations to ensure meaningful delivery of the target known as 30x30: protecting and effectively managing at least 30 per cent of our land, freshwater and sea for nature by 2030. This is one of the global targets to be agreed at COP15. These recommendations build on the action we are already taking as a Government, including the recent action plan to tackle phosphorous pollution in our rivers, and implementing statutory nature targets.

A priority will be to transform our protected sites series so that it is better, bigger, and more effectively connected. These protected sites are very much the jewels in the crown for biodiversity and were designated to protect some of our most important habitats and species in Wales. We will expand and accelerate our nature networks programme to improve the condition and connectivity of our protected sites network and to restore the condition of key habitats to ensure plants and animals are more resilient to climate change. Further designation of sites will also be an important tool in helping to protect our most vulnerable sites, together with appropriate management. I will also raise the ambition of our national peatland action programme, so that, by 2030, the programme will be delivering at a scale capable of reaching the net-zero 2050 target of 45,000 hectares of peatland restored.

To support local collaborative partnership approaches, I am pleased to announce that we will provide an additional £3.3 million to local nature partnerships over the next three years. We recognise that LNPs are key in bringing together organisations, businesses and communities to take collective action to address local priorities. 

Our marine environment contains some of the most biologically diverse seas in the UK, with close to 50 per cent protected within the marine protected area network. However, while we have protected key habitats and species such as the bottlenose dolphin, just over half of those are in unfavourable condition. As a priority, we will accelerate action to complete the MPA network, to ensure the shortfalls in protection of habitats and features are addressed. I will shortly be launching the marine conservation zone designation process as part of our action to complete the network. We will finalise the assessment of potential fishing gear interactions with features of marine protected areas. This will enable us to understand what damage these do to MPA features and what management measures may be needed to prevent this.

I also want to unlock the potential of designated landscapes of national parks and areas of outstanding natural beauty to deliver more for nature. I believe they have a vital role in reversing nature's decline, as well as contributing to the 30x30 target in some of our most cherished and iconic landscapes. We will support national parks and AONBs to develop prioritised action plans for nature restoration, embedding these in strategic planning.

Llywydd, we also want to establish a series of nature recovery exemplar areas—either existing or new landscape-scale collaborations of public, private, voluntary and community actors who can come together to manage and restore nature in protected areas and the wider landscape.

We also want to explore the role of the new International Union for Conservation of Nature-defined status of other effective area-based conservation measures, OECMs, in recognising areas outside protected sites that can contribute to 30x30. I will set up an expert working group to identify candidate nature recovery exemplar areas and OECMs, including the management vehicles and funding mechanisms needed to establish these.

Llywydd, we will continue to reform land and marine management and planning, including spatial planning, to deliver more for both protected sites and wider land- and seascapes. We will take a strategic spatial approach, underpinned by robust evidence, to ensure that we are taking the right action in the right place. This will be achieved through strengthened guidance, such as 'Future Wales' policy 9, mainstreaming biodiversity, ecosystem resilience and green infrastructure.

We want to invest in specialist advisers to work with land managers and farmers to manage key habitats and ensure the right incentives are designed into the future sustainable farming scheme. 

Tackling biodiversity loss by 2030 will require current delivery to be both more effective and scaled up. We recognise that we need to unlock additional funding to deliver for nature at a far greater scale and pace. As key budget holders, we also have a role to play; we need to ensure all our budgets seek to contribute or deliver positive actions that leave biodiversity in a better state.

Effective monitoring is needed to chart progress towards delivering 30x30. I will establish a monitoring and evidence task group to continue the work needed to establish robust and appropriate monitoring and evidence frameworks.

A society-wide approach is required to tackle both the nature and climate emergencies. We need to build a strong foundation for future delivery through capacity building, behaviour change, awareness raising and skills development, strengthening connections between local communities and nature, and helping people understand and be capable of taking actions that will make a positive difference.

Llywydd, a team Wales effort is required to drive a decade of decisive action so that we can put the brakes on biodiversity decline. It is incumbent upon all of us here today to lead by example so that future generations are able to enjoy the natural environment, as we all have. I am extremely grateful to all who have taken part in my deep-dive, particularly the core group, the expert sub-groups and the round-table discussions, helping put us on a pathway to deliver for a nature-enriched future. Diolch.

Thank you, Minister, for the statement. I must be honest, the latter part, where you said, 'We need a team Wales approach'—you know, I can't disagree with that.

Now, I do welcome the commitment to develop and adapt monitoring and evidence frameworks to measure the progress towards the 30x30 target and guide prioritisation of action. But there is a flaw, and the 30x30 target has not been put into law. Now, we have declared a climate crisis and put the 2050 target in regulations. Even you note in your written statement that:

'The imperative to act is now and Wales needs to deliver a decade of action if we are to become nature positive.'

So, I see no reason why, as a Government, you're not bringing forward this legislation.

In talking about marine environments, I am the proud champion of our harbour porpoises in Wales, so I'm really keen to see all marine mammals protected better. You may also be unsurprised to hear that I welcome the decision to raise the ambition set out in your national peatland action programme so that by 2030 the programme will be delivering at a scale capable of reaching the net-zero 2050 target of 45,000 hectares of peatland restoration.

As you know, I strongly believe that the Welsh Government should be doing more with marine policy. It is good that you are going to accelerate action to complete the MPA network, but it's not enough. We should act on legislative proposals and create a legal duty to form a national marine development plan and to keep it under regular review.

I did welcome the comments you made about spatial planning and the seascape, and I know, through our committee, chaired by Llyr Gruffydd, that there's been a lot of challenge and scrutiny as to why we haven't got that in place now. We both know that statutory policy is what really makes a difference, and key legislation.

But it was with interest that I read of your commitment to unlock the potential of designated landscapes to deliver more for nature. Whilst I agree that projects such as peat bog restoration and natural river course restoration, such as that seen in the Machno valley, offer great opportunity for nature and biodiversity, I want us to be clear from the outset that also, combined with this, must go hand in hand—. And that is food production. Food production in designated landscapes is also key to our future.

As Dr Kate Williams of Aberystwyth University quite rightly stated, carefully managed and non-intensively grazed upland flocks have the potential to support our ecosystems, our biodiversity, and they will help to manage the iconic landscape. So, I would be grateful, Minister, if you could confirm whether you do have any intention of delivering for nature by reducing the head of livestock in designated landscapes. Because, with the tree targets that you’ve imposed, whilst I know you say that farmers have to apply for these, farmers are concerned—it was even on tv last night, when I was watching this programme—farmers are very, very worried about the fact that, in trying to do their bit for the environment by planting the extra trees, this is actually going to put pressure them as regards producing food. Given the situation in Ukraine, given the situation during COVID, where it was our farmers who, really—pardon the pun—stepped up to the plate and actually fed us during the problems we had with COVID, it’s apparent now more than ever. And I know my late friend and colleague Brynle Williams used to, many, many years ago, raise in this Chamber how worried he was about food shortages going forward.

I’m a bit concerned that you may be pursuing a dangerous trajectory by the comments in the written statement that you back the idea of

'farmers actively managing at least 10% of their land to maintain and enhance semi-natural habitats...creating new habitat features'.

So, it would be good to have a better explanation on that. Farmers to have the ability to designate 10 per cent of their high-quality farmland used for beef and dairy to become new habitat features—how are you going to implement that and still be saying that we’re backing our farmers to the nth degree in helping them to produce as much good quality Welsh produce as possible?

In 2021, NFU Cymru released its 'Growing Together' strategy, and that outlines a plan for sustainably increasing tree cover in Wales, integrating trees into existing farming systems, rather than replacing those systems. NFU Cymru have maintained that sensitive tree planting will be the key to enabling Welsh agriculture to meet Welsh Government’s carbon targets while protecting the wider economic, environmental, social and cultural benefits provided by Welsh farming.

Can I remind you that you’re out of time now? I’ve been quite generous already. If you’ve got one final point to make, make it now.

Yes. Will you commit to supporting the NFU Cymru 'Growing Together' strategy, and will you create a legal duty to form a national marine development plan and keep it under regular review? Thank you. Thank you, Llywydd.

Thank you, Janet. So, on the 30x30 and the targets put in law, I’ve said endlessly in this Chamber, and I’ll repeat it again: we expect COP15, which is now being held in December in Canada, and which I very much hope to attend, to set global targets. It’s extremely important that our targets meet those targets and exceed them. So, I’ve said all the way through, we absolutely intend to put the targets in law. Part of the work of the group going forward—. So, we’ve got the first lot of recommendations from the deep-dive group. They will now form an action team that will take it forward. They’re very keen to work with us and continue to do so. I cannot express my gratitude enough for the long, long hours people have put in for no reward other than having done the right thing. Having worked with us, they’re going to continue on. They’ve all agreed to continue on working with us—that includes active farmer associations and so on—to make sure that we have an action plan in place now to get the very specific targets.

So, I agree with you, Janet, but you can’t write down the targets any more than l can. The problem is, it’s all very well to say you want the targets in law, but I don’t know what they are. So, 30x30, sure, we can do that. But, if I wanted to, I could tell you that 30 per cent of the land in Wales is protected already—job done. But you know and I know that that’s not what’s needed. So, what we need are very specific actions, which the expert group will help us work up. We have the wider round-table and stakeholder groups feeding into that, and we will get targets that are meaningful, that hold our feet to the fire, and are indeed in law. But, I need to know what those targets should be. It's no point in me wanting them now when we haven't got them developed, and I also need to know what COP15 will do. I've been consistent in saying that all the way through, so we will follow that through. We will put a Bill through in this Senedd term that puts those into law, but I need to be able to do that in the light of the global arrangements for this. And, as I say, we plan to take a very active part in COP15 as well, as we have been feeding through with all of the Under2 alliances and all the rest of it.

On some of the other things, on the marine development plan, I just don't want to divert very scarce resource. I'm sorry, Janet, but you are a Conservative in the end—so, with the ongoing attack on public services and the amount of resource that we have, diverting resource to doing yet another plan, when what I want is to actually have the plan implemented, is just not something I'm prepared to do. So, I do agree with you that there should be a strategic element to this—we will be including that. We've established the MPA network management steering group. We'll be working with them to produce the action plan. But I want to get on and do it. I don't want to divert my scarce resource to doing yet another plan—we're very much a strategic factory as it is, and I don't want to do that. But I agree with you that it needs to be spatially allocated, so we will be working with that on the action plan.

And then, just to say that it's just as important to work with the fisher folk on the marine plans as it is to work with the farmers on the terrestrial ones. So, we'll be wanting to consult with our fishing industry people, we will want to consult, obviously, with all the non-governmental organisations, and we will want to discuss this with our experts. We had marine experts on the biodiversity deep-dive quite deliberately because this is about all areas—terrestrial, freshwater and the sea. So, we'll be doing that.

And then, just on the farmers, I'm afraid there's a lot of myth-busting that needs to be taken about what we’ve asked farmers to do. Obviously, we want farmers to produce the best food possible, in the most efficient way possible, and the sort of food that we want, going forward, but we also need them to support the absolutely vital biodiversity, without which our food is impossible. If there are no pollinators, there's no food. If there are no habitats for those pollinators, there's no food. So, we have to get a sustainable mix between the right kind of forestry, the right kind of open grassland—not ploughed, not farmed—peatland restoration and that, and the food production. We have to get that mix right, and the truth is it isn't right right now, and that's why we've got destruction of our biodiversity, because our previous farming practices in the twentieth century have contributed to it. They're not solely responsible for it but they have very much contributed to the loss of that biodiversity. So, the sustainable farming scheme, coming forward, will reward farmers for doing that mix properly. And of course we will help them do that, and of course we value the food they produce, but they also produce the air that we breathe and the plants that we are completely reliant on to keep alive, and the species that actually help us control the climate. We've seen what’s happening to the climate. We have to get more resilience for that.

Diolch, Gweinidog. I'm glad that the Welsh Government is now, I hope, moving towards a more ambitious agenda when it comes to addressing the nature emergency. The debates on this area that we've had in the Chamber, I think, have shown that each and every one of us has acknowledged the vital importance of protecting and restoring biodiversity for Wales, but the wider world as well. And I'm really proud that Plaid Cymru led the way in calling on the Senedd to declare a nature emergency and for the Welsh Government to commit to legally binding nature recovery targets and to close that environmental governance gap. We were the first country to formally declare a nature emergency, which is a really exciting and important thing, though today we are still waiting for the policy aims surrounding that to come to fruition. The commitments in our co-operation agreement, of course, are certainly welcome steps towards a more nature-positive Wales. We look forward to continuing collaborative work on that.

Now, on the challenges in this area, being acknowledged—notwithstanding any of those—I do think we need to address the fact that progress has, sadly, been slow when it comes to protecting nature, because nature continues to decline and will still face multiple threats. Minister, you'll know that the UK Government has set out details of a new Bill that threatens to amend or scrap crucial environmental laws. Some of these laws that might be scrapped protect some of our most vulnerable wildlife and green places—they defend clean water, clean air, clean beaches and rivers. Any one of these actions taking place would be a disaster; taken together, in quick succession, would be nothing less than an attack on nature. Now, I really do acknowledge that the deep-dive shows the Welsh Government is taking welcome steps towards putting its aims for nature recovery into practice and strengthening the protected sites network in Wales. I note that the First Minister said in July that the Welsh Government is committed to upholding EU environmental standards. So, can I ask you, Minister, what assessment the Welsh Government has made of the potential impacts of the Retained EU Law (Revocation and Reform) Bill and growth plan for the environment in Wales, and what conversations you're having with the UK Government to ensure that its plans don't impact on Wales's ability to determine and achieve our own environmental ambitions please?

The deep-dive includes a recommendation to develop primary legislation—this has come up already—to set overarching nature recovery targets, and that that would be laid as early as possible in this Senedd term. That is obviously very welcome because those legally binding targets are needed urgently. I think, in Wales, we have this opportunity here to be better at setting, yes, ambitious goals and tracking progress towards those goals. We can't afford another decade of business-as-usual for nature. I think everyone—well, I hope that everyone—would agree on that point. So, can you confirm that this will include targets for species abundance and distribution, along with habitat extent and quality, as part of this suite of legally binding, long-term and interim nature recovery targets?

Finally, Minister, do you agree that, in light of the UK Government plans, it's more important than ever to secure this vital legislation for Wales that will close the current environmental governance gap? And could you confirm that work to develop the targets and governance arrangements—all those things that are just so vitally needed—is going to start as soon as possible in anticipation of this upcoming legislation please? Thank you. 

Yes, thank you, Delyth. I couldn't agree more; we all, obviously, need to play our part. Declaring the emergency is one thing; actually taking the very, very difficult actions that are required to make it happen is quite another. I'm afraid I have to say all the time to the Conservatives opposite that it's all very well to say that you have signed up to these things, but then to oppose every single measure that moves us along that path is a very difficult thing. These are not easy things to do or we would have done them. People would have just done them automatically if they were easy. They are hard. They are changing the way that we all live our lives—that's the truth of it. And we have to do that or we will have no planet left. And these are not easy things to do. Every single sector of our society is going to have to look hard at what it's currently doing, and think very hard about what will be needed from that sector of society or that individual or that business to contribute to this, or we will not get there. I can't emphasise that enough. We need that from every single area of our community. We need to work with our communities on behaviour changes, on making the right thing—you hear me say this all the time—easier to do, making the wrong thing harder and harder and harder to do. And, obviously, we need to move people along that continuum. They're not going to go from really dreadful to absolutely excellent in one jump. You've got to get people there, but we've got to get them moving along that continuum. And the kind of dig-your-heels-in and,'Not-me; everybody else but not me', we've just got to get away from that. And the deep-dive people were vehement about that right across the piece, so we've got to do that. 

We absolutely have to get these targets into legislation. I can't agree with you what they'll be because that's what I've asked the experts to do. So, I want to see what happens in COP and I want to see what the global ones look like. I've said this to you endlessly, haven't I? I want to have the targets in place too; I'm frustrated by it. But I don't want to set targets that are easy-peasy or have no relationship to the global work that's been going on. I've had these deep-dive experts—they've been amazing to sit beside; it's a very humbling experience—but they don't agree amongst themselves always about what they should look like. So, we need to get a consensus view about what these targets look like, to make sure they're achievable, because targets that are just set and then gone just increase cynicism and, 'Oh, what's the point?' They have to be achievable, but they have to be stretching, don't they? They have to be just achievable. So, it's important to get that right, and I'm determined to do it. And I want my feet held to that fire. We want reporting—I have to come here and I have to tell you what I've done about it, and all the rest of it. I want those things. But the targets are essential to get right. So, we will do a lot of work now in the run-up to COP, and then in the immediate aftermath of COP, to get those targets agreed across the whole sectors, and then to get them implemented. But, make no mistake, that's all very well, but those targets will mean that we all have to do things differently and in circumstances where that might be very hard. There might be difficult decisions. So, this is not an easy path to take, but we have to do it or we will have no planet left. I couldn't agree more. 

Then, in terms of the UK Government plan, I despair really. So, we have a coach and horses being driven through a planning system. You saw the RSPB's response to that—that they mapped out the protected areas against the so-called investment zones. It's a disaster—an absolute disaster. Of course we will fight them. Of course we will try and keep our EU standards as much as we can. It's not a matter for me; you'd need to ask the Counsel General about the involvement of that. But my big fear is that in diverting resources to fight that battle, we lose even more ground in doing the things we want to do. I just think the Tories are in complete denial about the effect on our limited resources of having to fight a ridiculous and completely unnecessary onslaught on something that they say themselves they want to do. So, I just don't know where to put myself over how cross I am about all of that, but I can assure you we will fight it, we will keep hold of our plan-led system that we have worked so hard on and which is very important to people, and you heard in First Minister's questions only this afternoon that people want a bonfire of planning laws but not in their own area, which is a pretty classic reaction.

I very much welcome the statement by the Minister. We cannot continue to lose species. I'd take up more than my minute by listing the species in Wales that are under threat, but in biodiversity, of course, we need an equilibrium. We cannot afford to lose top-end predators. If we lose top-end predators, then animals lower down the food chain multiply massively, putting pressure on animals further down the food chain. We have seen that, for example, with rats; the animals that used to eat them have been reduced and so consequently what we're seeing is an awful lot more rats than we used to have. What are the Welsh Government going to do to support the top-end predators that are really important for biodiversity? 

On rivers and the sea, we cannot continue to flood it with untreated sewage and agricultural pollution. We have seen the growth of algae in the River Wye caused by agricultural pollution. NRW undertook research prompted by excessive growth of algae, often caused by high phosphate levels in the water. Parts of the river turned green during sunny weather and when water flow was low, causing potential damage to ecosystems and biodiversity. But the river pollution doesn't end there; it runs into the sea. So, what additional action is the Welsh Government planning to stop river and sea pollution? In the nineteenth century, there was a belief that you could pump anything into the sea and it would just disappear. We now know that that's not true, so hopefully we can take some action.

Yes, thank you, Mike. On the apex predator point, I completely agree with that. I don't know if Members have seen the film of Yellowstone park and the reintroduction of the wolves. If you haven't watched that, watch it—just Google, 'Yellowstone park reintroduction of wolves'. And that's all they did. They had real biodegradation, they had overgrazing by all sorts—they had all kinds of things, Honestly, it makes you cry to watch. They put the apex predator back in, controlled the numbers of the other things and the park regenerated. It was astonishing to watch, and that's what happens when you interfere with ecosystems without understanding what the outcome will be. It's well worth watching if you haven't watched it. It makes you go cold and shivery—I've gone just thinking about it now. 

So, actually understanding—this is the point, Mike, isn't it—from the experts what that ecosystem should look like, what that apex predator actually does and its role in maintaining the ecosphere that we're talking about is a really important thing that we're definitely working on. We've been looking, as I'm sure you know, at whether the reintroduction of beavers is a good idea in some of our rivers. I have no idea yet—nobody panic. We haven't decided yet. [Laughter.] But, we are looking at it—

I'm panicking more about wolves, actually. [Laughter.]

And the wolves. It's really important to understand what the ecosystem you're looking at now looks like and what is currently controlling that. What is the substitute for the apex predator? It's more complicated, isn't it, than that, because there will be other methodologies. Things move into the space vacated by an apex predator, for example. But it's really interesting—watch the Yellowstone programme—because we have removed all the apex predators from a large part of our wildlife, so what is going to control the population explosion of things that would otherwise have been predated? That's a real issue.

The other issue is that where we are trying to protect a species that has been overpredated, there is a really difficult conversation about how to do that. Lethal control, as it's euphemistically called—killing the apex predator because it's eating the ground-nesting bird chicks, and so on—is very controversial. We do do that in some parts of Wales. So, looking to see whether we've got the right solution to a problem is something I'm really keen to do, and I am not an expert in that. I need to ask people for advice about that. There is a range of views about that. We've had some heated discussions in these groups, I can tell you. But trying to hit on a solution that most people across the globe, not just in Wales, agree is the solution is really important, Mike. So, we're working hard to do that. And we have to do that with our land managers and our landowners, don't we? We have to understand what that looks like for them. So, there are lots of people working on that. 

I launched this report at the National Botanic Garden of Wales yesterday. They have—I can't remember what they call it now—a hawk programme there, though that's not what they call it, but a predator bird programme there. That's amazing, and if you talk to them about how they reintroduced those into the landscape, that's also amazing. So, they know what acreage of landscape will support one tawny owl, for example. So, they know where they can and can't introduce more, because they would just fight or starve or whatever it is. So, it's really interesting, and there's lots of work across Wales and across the globe going on on that. 

On the other point that you made, about the river pollutants, absolutely. I don't want to be a harbinger of doom all the time, though. We could go faster, don't get me wrong, and we could do better, but slowly they are still improving. I don't want people to come away with the idea that rivers are actually de-improving in Wales. Some of our rivers are in crisis, real crisis, but actually over the whole picture in Wales there is a slow improvement. What I have been asked to do as part of the deep-dive outcome is accelerate that, understand why that's worked in some areas and accelerate it, and get it out into the areas where we have real crisis like the Wye and the Usk, for example, or what's called the Brecon supercatchment. So, the point that I'm making, Mike, is that we know what works in some areas; we need to accelerate it across the piece. And I go back to what I said in response to Delyth, Llywydd: that cannot happen unless every single part of our community plays its part. There's no point in pointing fingers at people and saying, 'It's your fault', or 'It's your fault'; each player has to play its part in getting down its contribution to that pollution.

I welcome your focus on biodiversity and your passion. It's wonderful to be a Member of the Senedd and hear biodiversity being talked about so much. I was banging my head on a brick wall, basically, as a councillor for 12 years as a biodiversity champion, but to hear your passion is wonderful. The understanding of the nature and climate emergencies is in such stark contrast to the UK Government, who are insisting on deregulation and a bonfire of planning regulations under the investment zones, as you mentioned earlier. I'm really worried that they're going to meet the targets that they've set. So, it's a team Wales approach, and the work of the local nature partnerships is really wonderful and what they're doing. I know that you've provided them with capital funding. Will you be able to commit to capital funding going forward as well, over the next few years, to help them continue their good work? Thank you.

Yes, thank you, Carolyn. So, we had the water companies very much involved in our deep-dive and in our wider round-table, and our stakeholders. I personally have met with Ofwat—I always get the Ofs mixed up; Ofwat in this case—to talk about the new pricing structure, because for Dŵr Cymru in particular, not so much for Hafren Dyfrdwy, it's a not for profit, so we need to get the structure right so that the investment can go in in the right way. And actually we're disadvantaged by that. So, we've had a pretty robust conversation with Ofwat about making sure that that's taken into account, and we continue to have that. And Dŵr Cymru were on the core group as well, in terms of some of this. But, absolutely, we have to get those things right. We're still using a Victorian sewerage system across most of the UK, which is just not fit for purpose. So, we've got to do a lot of things. So, I've got some parallel things going on to the deep-dive. So, we've done an investigation and a review into the sustainable drainage systems, whether we should be accelerating that. I've written out and reminded all councils that there are already laws in place stopping you from putting impermeable covering on your front gardens and on your drives. I really do feel that people should know that and stop doing that; the run-off into the gutters is terrible from that. Joyce, you've talked about that since I've known you, I think. We have actually put the legislation in place and we need our local authority partners to step up, and I think we just need individuals to know about it.

On the funding, Carolyn, yes, I'm very pleased to say that we've put the funding into a three-year cycle so that people can plan for a much longer programme, so that they can understand how to spread out the action they have and can plan for a medium-term future. And I'm hoping that we can, year on year, extend the three-year programme as we go. It's been very successful, and that pulling together of all of the various levers, community, the non-governmental organisations, Government, councils and so on has been very successful.

I'm looking forward to the wolves in Singleton park, Mike. [Laughter.]

I have to say at this point, Huw, to you that there are some people who would say there were already wolves in Singleton park. [Laughter.]

Listen, I'm going to rattle through some very quick things. First of all, well done on this and well done to the people who put this together with the biodiversity deep-dive. This is significant—every word in this statement carries us on a significant way. Now the devil is going to be in the detail, but can I welcome this very much, welcome the fact that you've restated today, in response to the statement as well, your commitment to bring forward statutory targets and ones that are stretching and ambitious? And they've got to be the right ones. I know you've stuck on this ground for some time; that's great, but we're looking forward to it and we'll hold you to that being stretching and ambitious. The signals for this are important around the team Wales; total contrast to what's happening in England, what we're seeing; we've all got to pull this together. And would you confirm for me that, actually, a lot of farmers have been involved in this deep-dive, a lot have contributed? They not only wanted this, they wanted us to go further. And would you also tell us how we're going to do the funding? Because you mentioned towards the end of the statement there that—it says:

'We recognise that we need to unlock additional funding to deliver for nature at a far greater scale and pace.'

I agree. When and how?

Yes, so we had various farmers groups involved in the deep-dive and in the stake—. So, there's a kind of hub-and-spoke thing; that's how we did it. We decided we couldn't have a constructive discussion with more than about 12 people in the core group, so we had a sort of hub-and-spoke model, so members of the core group also sat on the round-tables and stakeholder groups and fed that in. We had quite a big kind of substructure feeding into the core group recommendations. All of that's in the public domain, so you can see what that looks like.

So, yes, very much so. The absolute consensus across the piece was, 'What you're doing is fine, but you need to do it bigger, better, more connected and faster', basically. So, nobody wanted to see it go any slower. And there was some discussion about whether the '30 per cent of the land' by 2030 was ambitious enough, but the consensus view was that if we managed to do that, we would have made a step change in the way that things are happening in Wales, because actually, we've got nowhere near 30 per cent of our land in good conservation status, so, actually, it's quite a big ask, really; sad though that is to say. Also, the consensus view was that if you got to 30 per cent of the land in good conservation status, you would—. Because the only way to do that is to do this. I've done all the hinterland as well, because part of the problem with our SSSIs and the various other designated landscapes is what happens around the edge of them has a really big impact on what's happening inside them, so the 30 per cent would be spreading it out anyway, which is good to know.

But it is about doing these difficult things that people will—. We all agree now, because I'm talking in high strategic things, but when it comes down to the individual things, it's not going to be easy to understand what these things look like. Every sector will have to change. Absolutely every sector will have to change, Huw. 

And then on the levering-in of finance, we've got some innovative work going on on that. We've got some difficult choices to make and some difficult conversations to have. So, for example, should we be encouraging the carbon offsetting schemes to come to Wales with their many, many megabucks? And the answer to that is, 'Only if we can ensure that what they then do in Wales is beneficial and in line with our policies.'

So, I am not having a scheme, just willy-nilly plants, whatever, all over the place; and also, I'm not having a scheme that means that the people who are offsetting it don't actually do anything about their carbon reduction. So, this has got to be a scheme of last resort, where the operators have already done everything they can do, and where we control—alongside our land managers and farmers and so on—how that money is levered in and what it's used for. That's absolutely a red line for us. So, that's a discussion we're having currently with the UK Government and with a number of operators.

But I would like to get my hands on that money, that's the truth of it, so, it's important for us; we can't do this with just public money alone. So, there is a pot of money there, so we're working very hard to try and do that. But also, we've got a whole group of people working on innovative finance, using public funding to leverage it, helping farmers to leverage money in for themselves, and so on. So, that's a whole new conversation. The Llywydd is going to make me come back another time to do that, so I don't have time right now.

It wouldn't be a biodiversity statement if I didn't mention the lovely, little fluffy red squirrels, for which I am the species champion. As it happens, 10 to 16 October is Red Squirrel Awareness Week, and I just want to say 'thank you' to the Welsh Government for the fact that you have listened to the concerns of the Red Squirrel Survival Trust, the Clocaenog Red Squirrels Trust, and others who raised those concerns about the tree-felling licence processes. I can see that amendments are going to be made now to the law through the Agriculture (Wales) Bill, and that's a great thing. So, I want to put on record my thanks to the Welsh Government for making those legislative changes when eventually we have an Act before us.

But one cause of concern that I do have in your statement today was the talk of the connectivity of different biodiversity areas, and it's not because I don't understand the risks of islandisation, if you like, for species, but it is due to the fact that we have islandisation that we still have a red squirrel population in Wales. So, there are sometimes some benefits from islandisation that we need to be aware of. Can you assure me, Minister, that when it comes to the red squirrel as a species, which is endangered here in Wales, that you will be cognisant of the risks of connectivity that connects them to their worst enemy, the grey?

Thank you, Darren. I was really delighted that we were able to listen to that and look at the way that the forestry licences are granted, so I really hope that that comes forward ASAP, myself, as well.

In terms of connectivity, this was the topic of a long discussion at the deep-dive, because, you're absolutely right, for some protected species, for endangered species or whatever iconic species, being connected to their worst enemy is a real problem. But for most species, having connectivity matters, because otherwise you can't mix gene pools and so on. However, it is a big problem for invasive species as well. The grey squirrel is, in fact, an invasive species, as you know, and it's actually a real problem for plant invasive species. So, the bane of mine and Mike's existence, the Japanese knotweed, happily travels down our rivers and all the rest of it. So, there was a long discussion about how we would construct connectivity in a way that took account of these kinds of invasive species and how we might contain them, so I'm absolutely happy to reassure you on that point.

I very much welcome your statement, Minister, and especially the headline commitment to triple peatland restoration. It's fantastic. For the record, I'm a long-standing RSPB member, so I'm especially pleased about what that's going to mean for ground-nesting species like black and red grouse and hen harriers, should they survive. But as well as being a unique habitat, peatlands are critical to our drinking water supply, and 70 per cent of UK drinking water comes from peat bog uplands, which prevent flooding and prevent wildfires too. Like planting trees, peatland restoration is key to carbon sequestration, so there are lots of good outcomes here in terms of our wider climate.

One of the recommendations of this, and it's just been talked about, is that connectivity, so I want to ask you, Minister, whether we're looking at all the opportunities of that connectivity, including the verges along our motorways and other areas, so that we can create those corridors. I know that lots and lots of that is being delivered very locally, but the importance to our pollinators of that connectivity can't be understated.

Absolutely, Joyce. So, on the peatland programme, I was delighted to be able to announce, alongside Lesley, the acceleration of the peatland restoration project. The projects that I've visited already in Wales have been heart-warming, really, amazing in the dedication of the people doing them and actually in the transformation of the landscape. So, I was very, very delighted to do that.

I am planning to lobby the incoming UK Government Minister—I haven't had a chance to meet yet, but I think I'm right in saying I'm meeting him on 24 October. I would like to see peat banned for use in any domestic setting. We don't have the power to do that, and it's one of the things that I'm very concerned about and I'm going to be having a chat with several UK Ministers about. I do think there's a big labelling issue. So, I'm sure that you're a keen gardener, Joyce, and I am as well, but it's really hard to make sure that the plant that you're buying in from the garden centre or a grower isn't in peat. Actually, even if you ask, they won't tell you often, and I think they should be obliged to tell you that that's what the growing medium is. So, I'd like to see the UK Government change the labelling requirements for products like peat.

There will be circumstances in which a local community, for heritage reasons and so on, still cuts peat, but, for the most part, commercial peat cutting should be stopped. So, I'm going to be lobbying the UK Government very heavily on that, but in the meantime, I'm very happy that we're restoring our own peatlands as fast as we can, and this is a step change.

Of course, the reason that we're able to justify it, apart from the fact that it's the right thing to do, is because, actually, if we don't do this, we will not get to net zero by 2050, because of the carbon sequestration that the peatlands bring, as well as all the nature benefits you mentioned, Joyce. I'm just delighted that we've been able, between us, to do this. As I say, it's the right thing to do, and it's the beginning of doing it bigger, better and faster, really.

Then, on the connectivity, Carolyn worked with us to talk with local authorities about 'stop the mow', No Mow May, and all that kind of stuff. One of my big bugbears, I have to say—I'm seriously thinking of doing this, I'm wondering whether I should canvass opinion—is that I do wish these gardening programmes on the telly, which I'm terribly addicted to, would show a few more scruffy gardens with woodpiles, and not cropped grass and decking. [Interruption.] Well, yes, because yours is probably full of invertebrates. I have a big row in my village all the time. My garden is as scruffy as is possible to be—who knew that was going to get trendy, but anyway—but my garden is full of insect life. It's absolutely full of insect life because they've got places to go and stuff to eat and all the rest of it. And consequently it's also full of birds, because they've got things to eat. I have neighbours whose lawns are cut with a nail scissors every Tuesday morning and they don't have any wildlife in their garden at all.

I just think this obsession with neatness has got to be got rid of. That goes for our local authorities and our hedges and edges. I recently wrote to the incoming administration in Monmouth to say that I was sure they hadn't done it especially for a visiting Minister but I was currently following a hedge cutter down the road, which was cutting off every single seed head all the way along. I was not delighted with this as a policy, and I sent a photograph to go with it. So, I'm hoping that that will galvanize them into saying, 'Why are you doing this? Stop doing it.'

There are some places where, for highway safety reasons, you do need to crop back some of the hedges. But, actually, you will know, as well as I do, all of you, that driving down one of those lanes with the most beautiful canopy over the top of it is glorious, isn't it? You get all kinds of wildlife and plants and flowers down there you don't see anywhere else. So, trying to change our public authorities' view, and, frankly, our inveterate gardeners' view, of what looks good is really, really important. I expect you all to go out there and be evangelical about it, and I'm planning to visit you to see if your garden is scruffy enough.

Jenny Rathbone. How scruffy is your garden?

I'm all for scruffiness. As the species champion for the swift, I was delighted that you wrote to all planning authorities to instruct them to ensure that there were swift boxes in new tall buildings and that we're not closing up the swift boxes or cracks in the buildings that are being restored in some way. Have you any idea whether it's had any impact whatsoever on the 50 per cent decline of the swift in the last 15 years? It's really, really devastating, and we face extinction unless we do something about it. 

Secondly, I was very interested that you're going to have a look at fishing gear interactions and bottom dredging for scallops, something Joyce Watson and I feel very strongly about. Why on earth are we allowing that in Welsh waters? When you go to COP 15, will you support Greenpeace's demand made last year for supertrawlers and boats that drag heavy equipment along the sea bottom to be banned from all marine protected areas more than 12 miles off shore? The big question for us is how the hell we would enforce it.

Thanks, Jenny. I don't know the answer to the swift boxes, but I will ask now that you've asked a question. We did that, I can't quite remember, at least one season ago, so we should have some information about the effect. I will certainly ask. 

On the end-of-life fishing gear—you went to visit it as well, didn't you, in Swansea, Mike—we've done some trials, and I was really interested in the one in Swansea. Mike and I share a river between our constituencies; I can't remember whether it was on your side or mine, but anyway. [Interruption.] Yes, it's one of those arguments, isn't it? It was a really interesting project, and it was about not only could we recover this stuff from the sea but how we could recycle it and how we could basically make the fisherfolk some money out of it as well so that it was in their interest to not just let it drift into the sea. We've all seen those terrible pictures of turtles with stuff around them and all the rest of it. I'm really interested in rolling that out. We've got some data from that about how best to do it. That's what we're looking at, and that was very much supported by the deep-dive. 

I'm the species champion for the native oyster, as it happens, so I'm very keen on bottom-growing organisms. Oysters are the canary in the mine actually; they will not grow if the ecosystem isn't good. I'm delighted to say that Swansea bay has been reseeded, having been a protected area for some time. When I was a kid, if you fell in Swansea bay, you had to have your stomach pumped out—I've just shown my age—and now it's a blue flag beach. The EU regulations drove that—I think we're losing sight of that. We were the dirty man of Europe, and it has happened in my lifetime. And I'm not that old. That is a delight, to see those beds reseeded and grow, and we hope in five years that they'll be cropable. The oyster was a staple of working-class diets right around the coast of Wales for many, many years. It's only recently been a rich person's delight. So, I'm really keen on doing that.

On marine, Lesley and I share this responsibility. Just to be clear, she's the decision maker for some of this stuff, and we share it. We are having a look at the whole thing about dredging, fishing, how that's done. I'm very keen, exactly as we say about the farmers, to bring our fisherpeople with us. I don't want them driven out of business and I don't want them not to be able to make a living, but nor do I want them to destroy the biodiversity of the sea. And they don't want to either, because they completely understand that they need to have a sustainable methodology for doing this. So, we have a working group, we've just refreshed it, we've just reappointed people and appointed new people to it, Jenny. And one of the things they'll be working on is this whole business about sustainable fishing, a sustainable fishing industry, what does that look like for Wales, and how on earth would we enforce it if we were doing it. Rhun's not in the Chamber, but you heard him going on, I think it was last week some time, about the vessel out of Bangor. We do have some vessels of that sort around the coast of Wales, so we are looking to see what we can do to use those vessels in the right way.

Thank you, Minister. That brings our proceedings to a close today. Thank you.