16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 787028 0 Cy 261112-0 I Cofnodir y trafodion yn yr iaith y llefarwyd hwy ynddi yn y pwyllgor. Yn ogystal, cynhwysir trawsgrifiad o’r cyfieithu ar y pryd. Mae hon yn fersiwn ddrafft o’r cofnod.  The proceedings are reported in the language in which they were spoken in the committee. In addition, a transcription of the simultaneous interpretation is included. This is a draft version of the record.  16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786632 1 Cy 261112-0 I Cyfarfu’r pwyllgor yn y Senedd a thrwy gynhadledd fideo. Dechreuodd y cyfarfod am 09:29. The committee met in the Senedd and by video-conference. The meeting began at 09:29. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786630 2 En 2026-11-12T09:29:34 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=8&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=8&l=cy 261112-1 1. Cyflwyniadau, ymddiheuriadau, dirprwyon a datgan buddiannau 1. Introductions, apologies, substitutions and declarations of interest C 5038 5038 Jayne Bryant AC https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 Bryant, Jayne Bore da and welcome to the public meeting of the Health and Social Care Committee. We have had apologies from Natasha Asghar this morning. We should also note that there have been new changes to the committee's membership, and I'd just like to thank Benjamin Hodge Mckenna for his time with the committee and to welcome Gareth Thomas back to us as a committee. So, you're very welcome, Gareth. The public items of the meeting are being broadcast live on Senedd.tv and a Record of Proceedings will be published as usual. The meeting is bilingual, and simultaneous translation is available from Welsh to English. Are there any declarations of interest this morning? I can see that we don't have any declarations of interest. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786637 3 En 2026-11-12T09:30:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=34&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=34&l=cy 261112-1 1. Cyflwyniadau, ymddiheuriadau, dirprwyon a datgan buddiannau 1. Introductions, apologies, substitutions and declarations of interest C 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786643 4 En 2026-11-12T09:30:27 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=61&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=61&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 5038 5038 Jayne Bryant AC https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 Bryant, Jayne We'll move on to the first item on our agenda, and this is our scrutiny session and our evidence session with members of health boards. So, we have Abigail Harris, who is the chief executive of Swansea Bay University Health Board; Robert Holcombe, who is the executive director of finance and procurement at Aneurin Bevan University Health Board and chair of the executive directors of finance peer group; and we also have Darren Hughes, who is a director of the Welsh NHS Alliance. You're very welcome. Thank you for joining us today. Members have a number of questions that they'd like to put to you this morning, and we'll make a start with Claire Archibald. So, Claire. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786655 5 En 2026-11-12T09:31:13 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=107&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=107&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 12179 12179 Claire Archibald AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12179 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12179 Archibald, Claire Thank you. Good morning, everybody. Thank you for coming. I have a question that has been brought up in the Public Accounts and Public Administration Committee, in August by Carrie Harper and then again last week by Iain McIntosh. It will probably go to all of you in a way, but it's been raised several times recently that physical patient medical records are still being transported between healthcare sites by taxi. These incidents have reportedly been attributed to difficulties with digital compatibility between different NHS services and systems, including those used by general practitioner practices. Could you please provide information on how frequently physical patient records are being transported by taxi in your health boards and where this occurs? I would also welcome an estimate of the associated costs to the health board. Thank you. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786661 6 En 2026-11-12T09:32:03 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=157&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=157&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 5038 5038 Jayne Bryant AC https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 Bryant, Jayne Who would like to start? Abigail? 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786663 7 En 2026-11-12T09:32:03 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=157&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=157&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 12576 Abigail Harris Harris, Abigail I don't have that specific detail in front of me, so I would be very happy to supply the clerk with the detail. The general issue is one about how we get our records digitised. So, we will have situations where we have services that are reliant too much on paper records. If I just give you an example from our health board in respect of some work that we've been doing around mental health and learning disability services, we have just moved from a system where we were totally reliant on our paper records, and if you imagine, patients may turn up at the community mental health team, as an out-patient or actually an in-patient, and the importance of our clinicians being able to access records—. So, we have just, in the last year, implemented a new digital system to enable us to put those records on to an electronic system. And we've done that jointly with our local authority as well, so it's a system that's compatible with the local authority system, because many of those patients who are accessing mental health services will also be accessing social care services as well. So, that's something we've started and we're rolling it out, but there is a lot more that we need to do to make sure that, right across the system, we've got a truly joined-up electronic record for all of our patients. We've got some bits that work really well. So, the Welsh clinical portal, where primary care can look in and see records—I think that's probably a really strong asset that we've got and, for many of us who go to our GP, the GP will be able to pick up those records and see what's happening in terms of our secondary care record really clearly, which I think is a real asset that we can build on. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786675 8 En 2026-11-12T09:33:38 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=252&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=252&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 12179 12179 Claire Archibald AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12179 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12179 Archibald, Claire Thank you. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786676 9 En 2026-11-12T09:33:39 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=253&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=253&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 12577 Robert Holcombe Holcombe, Robert Can I come in there? 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786679 10 En 2026-11-12T09:33:40 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=254&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=254&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 12179 12179 Claire Archibald AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12179 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12179 Archibald, Claire Yes, please. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786680 11 En 2026-11-12T09:33:41 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=255&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=255&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 12577 Robert Holcombe Holcombe, Robert I can speak a little bit about Aneurin Bevan health board. Again, I haven't got the figures in front of me, but we can certainly get those.  16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786683 12 En 2026-11-12T09:33:46 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=260&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=260&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 12179 12179 Claire Archibald AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12179 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12179 Archibald, Claire Thank you. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786685 13 En 2026-11-12T09:33:47 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=261&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=261&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 12577 Robert Holcombe Holcombe, Robert It's a similar position to what's Abi's described. A lot of this has built up from the historical position of different services holding their own records for their own areas. Digitisation, as has been mentioned, is the way forward, and that is continuing across a range of different services. Part of what we're doing in Aneurin Bevan initially, and this was started probably about five or six years ago, is scanning records so that we can actually put those into electronic records that are more accessible. In terms of the use of taxis, yes, we do use taxis, but we've also got our main records transfer supported through shared services and through our own internal mechanisms, but on occasion we will need to use taxis to make sure that records are available, so that when our clinical staff are seeing patients, they've got them available on the day, ready to see the relevant patient and have that background information. But it is something that needs to be improved, and we recognise it for digitisation. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786697 14 En 2026-11-12T09:34:53 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=327&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=327&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 12179 12179 Claire Archibald AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12179 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12179 Archibald, Claire Could I just ask, since you've clarified that you do use taxis, are they approved contractors? Obviously, for general data protection regulation reasons, if you're putting medical records in the back of just a normal taxi—. So, my question would be: who are they handed over to at the end? And, obviously, do you screen the people that are taking these medical records? 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786686 15 En 2026-11-12T09:35:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=334&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=334&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786736 16 En 2026-11-12T09:35:14 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=348&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=348&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 12577 Robert Holcombe Holcombe, Robert So, I personally can't guarantee that, but my expectation would be, as part of the organisation's due diligence, that they are vetted and that due diligence is undertaken on the actual taxi firms. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786739 17 En 2026-11-12T09:35:26 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=360&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=360&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 12179 12179 Claire Archibald AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12179 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12179 Archibald, Claire Is that something that we'd be able to find out? 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786740 18 En 2026-11-12T09:35:28 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=362&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=362&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 12577 Robert Holcombe Holcombe, Robert Yes.  16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786742 19 En 2026-11-12T09:35:29 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=363&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=363&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 12179 12179 Claire Archibald AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12179 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12179 Archibald, Claire Yes, okay. Thank you. So, this links to the wider concern, obviously, highlighted by Audit Wales in September, which found that NHS Wales was struggling to translate its digital ambitions. So, my question is: regarding the upcoming budget, from the perspective of health boards, and the wider NHS, do you believe the forthcoming Welsh Government budget will provide sufficient funding to address these issues and improve digital integration across NHS Wales, rather than just upgrading the ones that we've got? 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786743 20 En 2026-11-12T09:35:58 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=392&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=392&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 12577 Robert Holcombe Holcombe, Robert Shall I respond to that? 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786744 21 En 2026-11-12T09:35:59 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=393&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=393&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 12179 12179 Claire Archibald AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12179 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12179 Archibald, Claire Yes. I know I was—[Inaudible.] 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786745 22 En 2026-11-12T09:36:02 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=396&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=396&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 12577 Robert Holcombe Holcombe, Robert So, in terms of the final budget, and what it means directly for the NHS, we'll have to see in terms of what is published as part of our allocations, which usually comes out in December. The intention, obviously, for greater digital investment is a positive. From our perspective, there's a challenge within the NHS, in terms of the availability of revenue funding as well as capital. So, there are two funding streams that we receive, and depending on the systems that we utilise and procure, there may be different funding streams required. So, as an example, a significant shift in data being held on the cloud will require solutions that are revenue funded, due to accounting regimes. Where we are actually physically buying assets, like computer trays, for example, and servers, that's a capital route. The demand for digital solutions, and the growth for digital solutions, to enable a whole host of improvement in the NHS, I think is well recognised, and the report picks that up. Whether they'll be sufficient in this funding round, and the budget round, I can't confirm that, because we won't know the figures until December.  16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786747 23 En 2026-11-12T09:37:16 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=470&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=470&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 12179 12179 Claire Archibald AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12179 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12179 Archibald, Claire Okay, thank you very much. Thank you.  16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786750 24 En 2026-11-12T09:37:18 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=472&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=472&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 5038 5038 Jayne Bryant AC https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 Bryant, Jayne Okay. Brilliant. Just in terms of the financial planning, and just around your key priorities, really, ahead of the publication of the draft budget, I'm just wondering what approach you think the Welsh Government should take to prioritise areas of spending across health and social care and other policy areas. Darren. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786751 25 En 2026-11-12T09:37:43 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=497&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=497&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 8427 Darren Hughes Hughes, Darren Yes, I'm happy to go. I think the leaders that we represent in the Welsh NHS Alliance are all too aware of the pressures across the whole of the public sector. And I think there's an anticipation that things are not getting any easier any time soon. They're also very aware that the proportion of Welsh Government funding that is spent on health and social care is the majority of the budget. It relates to a wider point, really, around that sort of longer term certainty around funding to enable planning things like digital systems that we've already touched on. You can't go out tomorrow and sort of solve the problem by buying something; you need to know what sort of money is coming in over what period of time.  Something we've been calling for is that focus on all Government spending, to look at the preventative aspects of spend. Because we're very aware that if you're stripping away funding from education, from housing, from reducing poverty in communities, it's actually going to lead to increases in pressure on the health service because it's going to damage people's health. So, we're very aware that we have to do more with the money we've got, but would ask Welsh Government, and would ask for cross-party support, really, for that longer term funding vision for the NHS. Because some of the problems that we are facing are going to take longer to solve than one Senedd term, and it's something that has happened in other countries, where there's cross-party support for a longer term plan for health and social care. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786754 26 En 2026-11-12T09:39:12 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=586&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=586&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 5038 5038 Jayne Bryant AC https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 Bryant, Jayne Anybody else? Abigail. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786755 27 En 2026-11-12T09:39:13 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=587&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=587&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 12576 Abigail Harris Harris, Abigail I'll just add to that. Thank you, Darren. Clearly, we would really welcome the continued focus on disease prevention, because, clearly, we know that many people will arrive in our system with conditions that we could have done more to prevent earlier in the system. And I think, if you look at the trend of where the proportions of our funding have gone over the last five, six, seven years, we do need to think about how, through the Community by Design programme that the chief medical officer is driving, we can deliver more, earlier, for populations out in the community.  I'm very aware that in our patch, in Swansea and Neath Port Talbot, we have some of the highest rates of premature illness, from cardiovascular disease, for example. And we know that there's something called a treatment gap, where there are people who are living in the community with at-risk symptoms. They're not coming forward, they probably don't routinely go their GP practice, and they could be on relatively cheap and straightforward medications—statins and medication for hypertensive conditions—that would prevent things like stroke and heart attack. So, it's about being able to recognise if we could put more into that. Shifting those resources across the pathway are easy to say and a bit more tricky to deliver. So, I think that's an example of a focus on prevention and doing more in our community as we build that community model around our primary care services. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786796 28 En 2026-11-12T09:40:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=634&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=634&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786819 29 En 2026-11-12T09:40:43 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=677&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=677&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 5038 5038 Jayne Bryant AC https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 Bryant, Jayne Okay. Claire? 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786820 30 En 2026-11-12T09:40:44 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=678&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=678&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 12179 12179 Claire Archibald AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12179 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12179 Archibald, Claire Yes, please. So, Audit Wales recently reported that the NHS Wales received an additional £823 million in revenue funding in 2025-26, representing a 3.8 per cent real-term increase, yet the annual deficit increased by £75 million to £199 million, and the cumulative deficit now stands at £506 million. At what point do we have to acknowledge that simply increasing funding is not resolving underlying financial problems within the NHS? And what fundamental changes do you believe are needed to address this? 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786824 31 En 2026-11-12T09:41:14 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=708&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=708&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 5038 5038 Jayne Bryant AC https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 Bryant, Jayne Robert. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786825 32 En 2026-11-12T09:41:15 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=709&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=709&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 12577 Robert Holcombe Holcombe, Robert Shall I respond to that? So, I think unpacking that is a reflection of where we, as NHS Wales as a whole, have come over the last few years. I don't really want to use the word 'COVID', because it's a long time ago now, but the implications of COVID are still being felt by the service, in terms of the acute nature of the patients coming through. So, the disease burden has increased and, as a result of that, and aligned with additional cost pressures, unfortunately—. We appreciate there's a capital limit around the funding that we receive, because that's linked to what Welsh Government receive, but sometimes that hasn't kept pace with inflation and growth in other areas. So, I'll quote some examples. The cost for our secondary care drugs, particularly for cancer, over the last few years, has risen by approximately 50 per cent. Over the last 10 years, our average uplift as the NHS has been approximately 2 per cent to 3 per cent, depending on what you look at. When you consider that in the mix of the market forces, if you like, and the economy that’s driving some inflation and growth, it's not keeping pace. If I give an example of two others, so continuing healthcare and care home costs—generally, the inflation rate is about 6 per cent or 7 per cent per year, and if you compare that to that 2 per cent, it just doesn't keep pace. I mentioned secondary care drugs. Specialised services as well, specialised services growth—usually inflation of around 4 per cent to 6 per cent over the last few years. So, that gives you the context of the inflationary and growth factors, plus the investment in new technologies, and that includes drugs, that are driving a cost pressure across the system. Aligned with that is the requirement, obviously, as a public service, to be more efficient and make savings. So, as part of that, the NHS in Wales recognises the significant budget given to it and the proportion that it means for Welsh Government, and takes living within its means seriously. But we do have those external pressures, as well as patient acuity and demand. So, the savings for the last six years in the NHS has been approximately £1 billion, £600 million of which is recurrent. If you look at this year, the overarching position for Wales is emerging as a £300 million deficit. That's after £300 million savings. Unfortunately, as part of the current financial assessment, there's also approximately a £300 million underlying position going into next year. So, the figures are huge. But if you think about the total budget of NHS Wales—over £11 billion—1 per cent is £100 million. So, the percentages are small, but we recognise the financial values are huge, in terms of multiple millions. So, just reflecting on the overall environment that the NHS in Wales is operating within, there's certainly been a step change since 2019-21 with the pandemic: pressures have increased, inflation has increased through market forces, and the demand on the service to respond to those patient needs has grown as well, hence driving the costs. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786636 33 En 2026-11-12T09:45:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=934&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=934&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786702 34 En 2026-11-12T09:47:22 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=1076&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=1076&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786714 35 En 2026-11-12T09:49:53 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=1227&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=1227&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786645 36 En 2026-11-12T09:45:17 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=951&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=951&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 12179 12179 Claire Archibald AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12179 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12179 Archibald, Claire Thank you. I did have some of that down there, so I'm glad you mentioned it; thanks very much. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786653 37 En 2026-11-12T09:45:21 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=955&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=955&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 8427 Darren Hughes Hughes, Darren If I could follow up on that, I mentioned earlier the need for that longer term certainty. Around the capital spend in Wales, pro rata, per head of the population, we lag behind other areas of the UK in terms of the amount of capital that's being spent on the NHS. Rob alluded to the productivity point, and I think if you look at the age and condition of the Welsh NHS estate, we are lagging behind. I've got the figure in front of me: 10 per cent of the estate was built before 1948, some of it's even older than I am. But, genuinely, we do need that longer term plan. Because older buildings make staff less productive and can affect the condition of some of the more well-known hospitals that are in a bad state of repair. So, there's been that long-term underfunding. We would ask the Welsh Government to explore some of the more innovative ways—. We've had good examples in the twenty-first century schools programme, where there was a pooling of capital budgets between local authorities to enable new schools to be built. The NHS Wales Shared Services Partnership looked at the overall condition of the estate and the urgent maintenance backlog is around £1.5 billion. So, we're talking very large amounts of money. That's more than the Welsh Government's capital budget as a whole. So, we need that longer term plan and prioritised plan, otherwise we'll be chasing our tail on the maintenance. It's a bit like not affording to have your car maintained; when it breaks down, it costs a lot more. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786669 38 En 2026-11-12T09:46:51 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=1045&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=1045&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 12179 12179 Claire Archibald AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12179 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12179 Archibald, Claire Thank you. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786671 39 En 2026-11-12T09:46:52 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=1046&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=1046&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 5038 5038 Jayne Bryant AC https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 Bryant, Jayne Can I just bring Gareth in? I'm conscious of time. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786672 40 En 2026-11-12T09:46:55 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=1049&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=1049&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 12148 12148 Gareth Thomas AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12148 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12148 Thomas, Gaz Just on old hospital buildings, the Heath—the main one—are the funds there to build a new one? 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786696 41 En 2026-11-12T09:47:11 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=1065&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=1065&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 8427 Darren Hughes Hughes, Darren Not at the moment. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786699 42 En 2026-11-12T09:47:13 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=1067&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=1067&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 12148 12148 Gareth Thomas AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12148 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12148 Thomas, Gaz So, that's not going ahead? 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786700 43 En 2026-11-12T09:47:16 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=1070&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=1070&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 8427 Darren Hughes Hughes, Darren That's probably more of a question for colleagues in the Welsh Government, but the capital isn't available to Cardiff and Vale at the moment. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786703 44 En 2026-11-12T09:47:23 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=1077&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=1077&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 12576 Abigail Harris Harris, Abigail On that, we really welcome the conversation with officials in the Welsh Government around how do we get a pipeline of investment over a longer period of time and, together, prioritise the order in which we need to invest in our estate. We are one of the organisations that have got some really poor estates, particularly in our mental health services. So, we've been talking with Government as part of the national mental health strategy about how we configure the right services—and some of that is where we've got structural costs. For example, if you've got one mental health ward in one area that's not connected to the rest of your mental health services—which is what we've got in Neath Port Talbot Hospital, we've got one ward—if the ward manager is sick and doesn't come in for the shift, there's no ability to move the staff across wards and manage that. So, you'll be going to say, 'We need an agency member of staff in.' There's something about how we configure services. When we're thinking about redevelopment and reprovision, we're thinking about what's the configuration that's going to give you the best for patients in terms of access, but also be most efficient and provide best value in terms of how we deliver that service too. Royal college guidance changes and updates; I was having a conversation with our clinical director for adult mental health yesterday, talking about the recommendations on how many staff you need per number of beds. If your ward is not configured in that way, it's more expensive to staff it. Some of those kinds of things we need to think through as we're designing our new estate. There are examples for me where we've got three hospitals where we've got some provision, as Safa will know, in Singleton, Neath Port Talbot and Morriston, and actually, from a patient point of view, access probably wouldn't change very much if we consolidate on one—. So, things like endoscopy, we've got running on three sites. Probably, we'll want a conversation about whether that's the most efficient way of doing it. It might be, but let's test those things and look at how we can deliver more efficiently and get the quality of some of our facilities up as a result. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786712 45 En 2026-11-12T09:49:26 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=1200&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=1200&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 5038 5038 Jayne Bryant AC https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 Bryant, Jayne Great. Can I just ask you around the integrated medium-term plans as well? We know that in 2025-26, six of the seven local health boards didn't have an integrated medium-term plan approved by Welsh Ministers. How can local health boards be supported to improve that more long-term planning and develop those integrated medium-term plans as well? 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 787000 46 En 2026-11-12T09:49:54 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=1228&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=1228&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 12576 Abigail Harris Harris, Abigail I think—. Sorry, Rob, go on. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786715 47 En 2026-11-12T09:49:55 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=1229&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=1229&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 12577 Robert Holcombe Holcombe, Robert I'll go first and I'm sure you can add to it. In terms of the actual approval of the plans, a significant factor is the financial forecast linked to those plans. It's not the only factor, but that's usually a running theme, particularly through the health boards that are in deficit, or forecasting deficit. So, there is that to be cognisant of. All health boards are looking to develop financial recovery plans that will get them back to a sustainable balance, attempting to do it within the three-year operating cycle of the financial framework we've got in Wales. That aside, from an operational and planning perspective within health boards, with our partners, and I think I can probably speak for all health boards, we are continuing with developing and delivering those plans, where it's affordable to do so. We are attempting at every opportunity to improve services, make them more equitable and better value, and get better outcomes for patients. There are limits to that, obviously, because of the financial challenges, and that is one of our statutory duties to meet. There may be an implied hiatus, but that's not the case at all. Some of the feedback that has already been given around the aims to try and dehospitalise care, shift services upstream, are a very significant part of the planning portfolio and aims of organisations at a strategic level. Operationalising that, there's obviously a balance around a whole host of priorities, so waiting times being the obvious counter in terms of driving those waiting lists down. With resources, we really, strategically, would like to drive on the prevention and out-of-hospital side. So, the efforts and the intention and the delivery of IMTPs does continue, even though they're not officially signed off, within the realms of the ability that health boards have. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786775 48 En 2026-11-12T09:54:56 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=1530&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=1530&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786780 49 En 2026-11-12T09:54:57 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=1531&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=1531&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786758 50 En 2026-11-12T09:50:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=1234&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=1234&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786772 51 En 2026-11-12T09:52:10 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=1364&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=1364&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 5038 5038 Jayne Bryant AC https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 Bryant, Jayne You mentioned waiting times, so we'll now move on to talk about those waiting times, with some questions from Safa Elhassan. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786773 52 En 2026-11-12T09:52:19 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=1373&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=1373&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 12189 12189 Safa Elhassan AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12189 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12189 Elhassan, Safa In terms of the referral to treatment pathway, waiting over two years has increased from 2,589 in March 2026 to 5,068 in August this year. What is your clear timescale to bring these waits down, to start off with? 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786776 53 En 2026-11-12T09:52:48 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=1402&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=1402&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 12576 Abigail Harris Harris, Abigail I'll kick off. All health boards are working really hard to make sure that we bring those very long waits down, and there are plans in place for each health board. Speaking for my own, we have been maintaining the 104-week waiting time for referral to treatment. Within individual specialties, we will have some specialties that are far exceeding that and the waiting times are much shorter. On the thing that Darren touched upon in terms of multi-year funding, clearly, what we want to be able to do, where there is additional funding, which is really welcomed, is to be able to invest that in our NHS services. We are still relying on needing to outsource or insource some of the activity where we've got capacity gaps. So, for us over the longer term, it's really looking at what the demand is when you've cleared the backlog: so, what's the genuine demand for the population and how do we ensure that we've got the provision of that service. That will require us to work very differently. I know that Rob in south-east Wales has done a lot of work, with the three health boards working together. We are doing the same with Hywel Dda, where there are high-volume specialties—so, things like cataracts and orthopaedics—where we may have ups and downs in terms of subspecialties, and looking at employing clinical teams that work across geographical areas that would help us collectively bring down waiting lists across borders between organisations. But we know that if you are waiting, and in pain and discomfort, 104 weeks still feels like a very long time. We are certainly committed to that being the very maximum. But actually, we are all keen to work to make sure that we can bring those waits down. Because it will actually drive efficiencies as well, because if you're waiting a long time, the chances are you'll have had more interventions whilst you're waiting. There is a big emphasis on waiting well. All health boards have a lot of information to support. And prehabilitation—so, if you're going for surgery, making sure that we do everything we can to prepare you to be as well as possible, so that the outcomes from your surgery are as positive as they can be for individuals.  16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786619 54 En 2026-11-12T09:59:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=1774&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=1774&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786620 55 En 2026-11-12T09:59:01 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=1775&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=1775&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786604 56 En 2026-11-12T09:57:57 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=1711&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=1711&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786609 57 En 2026-11-12T09:57:58 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=1712&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=1712&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786533 58 En 2026-11-12T09:55:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=1534&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=1534&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 12189 12189 Safa Elhassan AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12189 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12189 Elhassan, Safa Thank you. I would just like to push you on that time frame. I know you didn't specify, but can you give a time frame where the waiting lists will start to come down? I'm just going to push you again regarding that time frame. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786584 59 En 2026-11-12T09:55:13 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=1547&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=1547&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 12576 Abigail Harris Harris, Abigail My understanding is that all health boards have now had the funding for our planned care plans, and individual health boards will have been having conversations with the Welsh Government to refine their plans, with a trajectory to deliver zero. We can supply the committee with individual health boards' trajectory; I don't have every health board's trajectory. But as part of that funding agreement that's been reached with every health board in the last couple of months, there will be detailed trajectories that are now being tracked in order to deliver the Welsh Government's target on planned care.  16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786585 60 En 2026-11-12T09:55:48 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=1582&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=1582&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 12189 12189 Safa Elhassan AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12189 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12189 Elhassan, Safa I think you mentioned or you touched upon that you're using some external providers to help bring that waiting list down. I know that in the recent supplementary budget that was passed, £100 million is going towards waiting list reduction and £25 million towards capital, towards the hubs. How much of that money is going on external providers to bring that waiting list down, as you mentioned? 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786589 61 En 2026-11-12T09:56:17 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=1611&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=1611&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 12576 Abigail Harris Harris, Abigail The majority of it's going internally to support and enhance what we're delivering internally, but there will be some specialties—we're just going through the detail of that at the moment in terms of our demand and capacity—where we've got backlogs or specific areas on a patient pathway. For us in Swansea bay, for example, we do have some gaps in some very specific diagnostics. For us, pathology is an area where we don't have enough capacity, and in some of our diagnostics—cardiac MRI and cardiac CT is an area where we've got gaps. So we will be looking at the most cost-effective way we can secure that. Many of the contractual arrangements we do at an all-Wales level and use NHS services to try and make sure we're getting the very best price for that. But coming back to my earlier point, what we all want is to be able to provide those services within our core capacity, and working with programmes like training our radiologists and radiographers to make sure that we have the workforce that we need of the future, where we've got specific gaps. There are a couple of clinical areas where we don't have enough provision at the moment in terms of medical workforce-specific areas. Again, it's about looking at what we could do working across borders with different health boards coming together to try and make sure we can equalise some of that across health boards, and work differently. And upskill some clinicians as well, because we know that there are areas where we're not doing as much as we could with some of our nursing enhanced therapy roles. We're also keen to do that as part of our workforce planning. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786610 62 En 2026-11-12T09:57:59 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=1713&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=1713&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 12577 Robert Holcombe Holcombe, Robert Just to add to the point that Abi has touched on, even with this funding—. It comes back to the multiple-year funding proposition. We have had last year and this year very significant funds coming through to use to bust waiting lists and waiting times. But there is a fundamental—. In various services in various health boards, it lands slightly differently as a footprint. There are recurrent capacity shortfalls to meet the demand that we've built up because there's been that shortfall, but also the growing referral demand for certain services. In Aneurin Bevan, it's orthopaedics that's our challenge. Whilst we can use funding non-recurrently—and, as Abi suggests, it's predominantly internal, although there is some external private sector support for that—we are unable to commit resources to recruit a number of additional surgeons, because we don't have the recurrent funding. Like I say, we've had what I described as spot funding, non-recurrent, each year. For sustainability, and for the recurrent nature of building our local teams, that really would be helpful to support longer term sustainability and a reduction in waiting lists and waiting times. Some of that can be supported through regional working. We're developing a programme of work now for south-east Wales with the three health boards, with some cross-cover and cross-working. But, at the same time, there's a regional shortfall in orthopaedic service capacity as well. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786622 63 En 2026-11-12T09:59:49 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=1823&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=1823&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 8427 Darren Hughes Hughes, Darren I just wanted to make a point on the importance of that long-term funding. At the risk of sounding like a broken record, there are areas, ophthalmology being a really good example, where there's a serious shortage of surgeons in that area. The importance of the need for long-term funding to be able to move those things into community—. Declaring an interest, as being married to an optician, the amount of follow-up care, post-surgical follow-up, now being carried out on the high street in opticians in Wales is huge—that monitoring, also the pre examinations using technology. Those businesses, and they are businesses—if you look at primary care, GPs, private businesses, opticians, dentists, community pharmacy, they need to make investments in their business with equipment, staff training, for the next three to five years, and that certainty isn't there for them. And I regularly speak to the bodies representing the contractor groups, and they would say, ‘It's all okay—if we had enough money from the blooming health boards it would all be okay.’ But there is that certainty that they need. There is a time lag between health boards or the Government suggesting that we move these services into community by design, as the name is. Those businesses have to invest in the future, so they need that certainty if they're going to borrow money, in many cases, to invest in redesigning their premises—a community pharmacy, for example, building a consultation room. Because there are thousands, literally, of consultations held in community pharmacies on the high street in Wales every day, taking pressure off the secondary care sector. Even sometimes relatively simple things—if the workforce is there and there's certainty about funding, some health boards and GP practices are now having that self-referral to physio, which is preventing things like the back pain, knee pain, joint pain, preventing surgery, keeping people well and enabling them to stay fit, reducing demand. But it's not a quick fix. If there's certainty around funding for primary care and for health boards it enables better planning, better use of resources, and, probably most importantly, time to develop the workforce to deliver care more effectively. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786884 64 En 2026-11-12T10:00:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=1834&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=1834&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786887 65 En 2026-11-12T10:02:04 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=1958&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=1958&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 5038 5038 Jayne Bryant AC https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 Bryant, Jayne Okay. We'll go back to Safa. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786888 66 En 2026-11-12T10:02:09 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=1963&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=1963&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 12189 12189 Safa Elhassan AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12189 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12189 Elhassan, Safa I just want to ask—. This money, you're saying that, because it's short term, it's not long-term planned money, you feel that the waiting lists may go up again once that money is spent. Is that—? From what you're saying, in terms of it's not long term—. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786889 67 En 2026-11-12T10:02:36 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=1990&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=1990&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 12577 Robert Holcombe Holcombe, Robert Yes. So, in the example of orthopaedics in Aneurin Bevan, our underlying growth in demand and referrals through will grow the waiting list faster and greater than our ability with our substantive capacity to keep pace with it. So, we will reduce the waiting lists with the resources we have available now. As soon as those resources are fully utilised, we'll start seeing creep again. There are obviously elements that can improve that, which we are, obviously, looking at, around demand management alternatives, as Darren described, particularly around musculoskeletal services. But, ultimately, there's a backlog that the resources are dealing with, but our current referrals are still in excess of our capacity. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786890 68 En 2026-11-12T10:03:18 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=2032&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=2032&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 5038 5038 Jayne Bryant AC https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 Bryant, Jayne Okay. I'm really, really conscious of time, as we seem to be getting over that. Was your question specifically, Claire, on this specific—?  16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786891 69 En 2026-11-12T10:03:36 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=2050&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=2050&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 12179 12179 Claire Archibald AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12179 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12179 Archibald, Claire Yes, it's the last bit on the health hubs.  16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786892 70 En 2026-11-12T10:03:29 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=2043&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=2043&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 5038 5038 Jayne Bryant AC https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 Bryant, Jayne Specifically, yes. If you go on and ask on that. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786893 71 En 2026-11-12T10:03:30 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=2044&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=2044&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 12179 12179 Claire Archibald AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12179 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12179 Archibald, Claire Okay. It's just a quick one. I'm really interested in the health hubs, as you can imagine. So, Cardiff health centre cost £19 million in 2019. It's a real success; it's phenomenal. Hywel Dda—I've had a meeting with Hywel Dda health board, and their Cross Hands health hub that they're planning has been in planning for eight years, and they're looking at approximately around £40 million, probably, by the end of it; it's still not even been built yet. So, I appreciate elective care hubs, and I have challenged the health Minister on this. We're currently looking at 10 healthcare hubs over the next Senedd term. That's around two and a half, three, a year. So, how much funding has actually been committed? Obviously, the £25 million—how many are you going to get built in the first year for that? And how are you going to staff them? And basically, that's literally my question: how are you, probably, going to staff them, and where are they planning on going? 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786894 72 En 2026-11-12T10:04:26 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=2100&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=2100&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 12576 Abigail Harris Harris, Abigail So, my understanding is that the clinical expert group that's looking at the surgical treatment hubs is due to report imminently, I think, before Christmas. That will give an indication of where should we locate those. Some of us have already got facilities that are pretty much running like that. So, for us, we have stand-alone theatres in Singleton that are running predominantly cataracts and ophthalmology cases, but two theatres running very efficiently there. They're not areas for patients who might need to stay a little bit longer, so they are restricted in terms of the types of surgery we can undertake. And then we've got, again, similarly, high volume, relatively low complexity at Neath Port Talbot Hospital, where we have got absolutely fantastic theatres. We have three additional theatres that were built onto the back. It's a revenue model, so they're kind of rented, but they have given us significant increase in orthopaedic capacity, because they're full, proper laminar flow theatres that give us capacity to do that. So, there may be some things we need to do to actually tweak that to be meeting the criteria of being an elective treatment hub, but, for all intents and purposes, we run it like that anyway, because we won't have really complex or unpredictable surgery happening there, because we don't have post-anaesthetic recovery or intensive care there. But you can get a lot of volume of activity through when you haven't got emergency admissions impacting. So, we really welcome the expert review of this and we're waiting to see what the outcome of that will be, to consolidate what we've already got. But, just to comment around some of those other hubs, as part of the community by design and developing our primary and community infrastructure, that's exactly the model that we want to develop. We were discussing yesterday, through the funding from some health board funding and some funding that's come through the regional integration fund through the RPB, that we are looking at integrated hubs where health, social care, housing and those sorts of provisions can all come together for patients. We will certainly be looking at what do we need moving forward. For us in Swansea bay, we've got a brilliant facility in the centre of Swansea that provides lots of services; it's in a really old building that needs— 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786706 73 En 2026-11-12T10:05:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=2134&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=2134&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786724 74 En 2026-11-12T10:07:05 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=2259&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=2259&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 787088 75 En 2026-11-12T10:06:59 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=2253&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=2253&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 12179 12179 Claire Archibald AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12179 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12179 Archibald, Claire It needs upgrading. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 787089 76 En 2026-11-12T10:07:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=2254&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=2254&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 12576 Abigail Harris Harris, Abigail Yes—it needs sorting out. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786717 77 En 2026-11-12T10:06:01 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=2195&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=2195&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 12179 12179 Claire Archibald AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12179 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12179 Archibald, Claire Sometimes it's better to use older buildings and upgrade them.  16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786719 78 En 2026-11-12T10:07:04 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=2258&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=2258&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 12576 Abigail Harris Harris, Abigail Yes, and we will need to make that decision about can we decant and upgrade the building, but we need to make sure those community assets are fit for purpose in terms of the access and demand so that people can get to them easily. But it comes back to the comment about capital, around making sure we are able to keep on top of some of those buildings. When I went to visit recently, we went to visit the specialist community dental service, which is on the first floor, which means that people come up in the lift. There will be people who are, inevitably, coming in wheelchairs with one lift that's in need of replacement, really. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786721 79 En 2026-11-12T10:07:38 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=2292&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=2292&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 5038 5038 Jayne Bryant AC https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 Bryant, Jayne Okay, thank you. We have to move on now to questions from Becca Martin. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786722 80 En 2026-11-12T10:07:42 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=2296&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=2296&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 12184 12184 Becca Martin AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12184 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12184 Martin, Becca Thank you. I'm going to ask about urgent and emergency care. We all know there are massive issues within our A&E and our ED departments. Obviously, we know that one of the massive pressures is the bed capacity across the rest of the hospital. But, alongside that, what would you say are the other pressures? And how could we use the budget to address those pressures within our A&E departments? 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786725 81 En 2026-11-12T10:08:11 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=2325&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=2325&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 12577 Robert Holcombe Holcombe, Robert To me? 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786726 82 En 2026-11-12T10:08:12 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=2326&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=2326&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 5038 5038 Jayne Bryant AC https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 Bryant, Jayne Robert. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786727 83 En 2026-11-12T10:08:13 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=2327&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=2327&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 12577 Robert Holcombe Holcombe, Robert I'll come in for an element. I think some of this, in terms of if you think about what's driving urgent and emergency care demand, a lot of it comes down to chronic disease exacerbations. So, again, investing in more community services, this is where community by design and the upstream investment can actually have a direct impact on the acute sector—so, certainly, more services that are not based in hospitals, but obviously a greater volume of services, if we were able to do that through efficiencies and redesign the pathways so we can deal with those acute exacerbations or avoid them altogether, particularly related to chronic diseases, asthma, chronic obstructive pulmonary disease and some diabetic cases. There's a whole series of initiatives looking at that and being considered. There's a whole pathway redesign and refresh process looking at that, and that's linked to chronic disease and the various diseases that exist. There's a push for greater prevention, as you know. That's a strategic policy initiative, but that's a worldwide initiative; it's something we're all trying to do. However, we are currently seeing, in Aneurin Bevan anyway, significant demand that is assessed to be appropriate turning up at the front door, patients that need to be assessed, treated appropriately and dealt with to make them better. So, in theory—and it comes to the whole agenda around shifting services and resources upstream—that's what could have a significant impact on the urgent care system. Part of the challenge is creating the headroom to manage the shift and deliver that step change. Some will take longer term, whilst our current, immediate pressures are still growing. So, it is that dynamic challenge of investing for the future, but only having resources available to deal with what we've got in front of us currently. But that's a challenge for us as organisations, as well as a wider piece, perhaps, for Wales.  16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786674 84 En 2026-11-12T10:10:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=2434&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=2434&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786704 85 En 2026-11-12T10:10:36 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=2470&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=2470&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 12184 12184 Becca Martin AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12184 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12184 Martin, Becca Lovely. And I would like to just add on to that: what about making patient experience the best? Because it's not at the moment, is it? You know, patient experience within A&Es is quite poor. So, how do we use the budget to make that experience better for people when we've got that acute pressure at the moment? 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786705 86 En 2026-11-12T10:10:55 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=2489&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=2489&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 12577 Robert Holcombe Holcombe, Robert I'd just reflect on our health board—we've invested significantly in terms of services to release ambulances quicker, so that patients are coming in quicker. That's certainly had a significant impact in terms of patient experience—coming into the hospital instead of being in the back of an ambulance. As I said, we've put significant investment into that. But, as a result, we're in the upper quartile performance for handovers in Wales. In addition to that, we've expanded our assessment offering in terms of medical assessment units, surgical assessment units, same-day emergency care services. So, we're putting the capacity, if you like, there within our system and we are seeing improvements, but, obviously, there's more to go at. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786710 87 En 2026-11-12T10:11:52 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=2546&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=2546&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 12576 Abigail Harris Harris, Abigail And I'd add to that that there are three pillars that we're looking at: how do we make sure—? And I won't repeat the comment, Rob, about getting upstream and chronic conditions management, because we do know that respiratory conditions will account for a lot, particularly as we go into winter, and vaccination is one of the most important things we can do to help reduce that—so really making sure our communities are coming forward if they're eligible for vaccination. But I think there are three areas. The first is about helping patients access the right service for their need. Everyone knows where the ED is. It's open 24/7, it's warm, it's lit and it's there. But it's about making sure that people are confident to use the thing that's appropriate for their condition. So, Darren, you were talking about the alternatives in primary care. Many of our pharmacists are now prescribers and can prescribe and provide—the minor ailments scheme. There will be patients who do come through our minor injuries unit or our ED who we can better signpost to alternatives. I also think we can do better to try and manage that demand, so working very closely with the ambulance service about making sure that we're doing clinical triage with the calls that are going through that route, and again making sure that we are signposting to the most important service. So, we've got four different bits to our front door at Morriston. We do have the emergency department, which is fully open 24/7. We also have an older person's frailty assessment service that's got some capacity to really give a comprehensive assessment for older people. We've got same-day emergency care, which is jointly run by GPs and some of our acute physicians; we've just recruited some new acute physicians, which will really help us. And then we've got the acute medical unit. Because of the layout of our hospital, those individual components that make up our emergency and urgent front door don't necessarily quite work in a really easy flow between those services, because of how they're configured in our hospital. So, for us, there is something about standing back, and coming back to the capital, we are working out how we would reconfigure and replace—we've had some capital money—to get the right configuration at our front door for all of those services. So, I think that's the second thing. Then, there is something that we're all working very hard on—to make sure that, when people's acute care episode has completed, we are able to facilitate their move on, either to step down or community rehabilitation or back home. Because what patients tell us is they want to be back in their own home, and we need to be able to do that far quicker. For many patients, it happens very quickly and they get back, but there are some patients who are getting stuck for longer than they should be in acute beds. And we're working very hard with our local authority and third sector partners to make those lengths of stay shorter, so people can get back home or on to the next stage of their care pathway. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786720 88 En 2026-11-12T10:14:55 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=2729&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=2729&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 5038 5038 Jayne Bryant AC https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 Bryant, Jayne Becca. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786723 89 En 2026-11-12T10:14:56 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=2730&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=2730&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 12184 12184 Becca Martin AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12184 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12184 Martin, Becca Thank you. It's really good to hear you talk about that integrated work with other departments and other agencies, which was bringing us on to my next question, which is how we target the support for a whole-system transformation rather than siloed working within an emergency department, and how we avoid just pushing those pressures into other departments and into other agencies. I know you said before about the ambulance handover, but is that just transferring the pressure into the ED department? So, how do we work with that integrated approach and how does A&E fit into that whole system? 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786698 90 En 2026-11-12T10:15:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=2734&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=2734&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786707 91 En 2026-11-12T10:15:31 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=2765&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=2765&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 5038 5038 Jayne Bryant AC https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 Bryant, Jayne Darren, did you want to come in? 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786708 92 En 2026-11-12T10:15:32 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=2766&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=2766&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 12576 Abigail Harris Harris, Abigail What I was saying before—. Oh, sorry. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786709 93 En 2026-11-12T10:15:33 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=2767&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=2767&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 5038 5038 Jayne Bryant AC https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 Bryant, Jayne I was just going to try and get Darren in and then—. I'm just clear we need to be—. We're going to have to have some succinct questions and answers as well now, because we need to move on. Darren. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786713 94 En 2026-11-12T10:15:43 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=2777&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=2777&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 8427 Darren Hughes Hughes, Darren It was a point you've alluded to, almost, in the question, that it is a whole-system approach. The pressure that manifests in A&E departments every day is a sign of challenges around access. As you say, the lights are always on, as your colleague was saying, generally, access to GPs, our engagement with you as Members of the Senedd has often fed back that one of the main issues raised by constituents is that access. So, there are pieces of work going on there, but we've got to look at the whole system and change how we're doing things. On the hub issue, again, I can remember when there was a big announcement in England, 'Why haven't you got hubs in Wales?' I knew locally, where I lived, that minor surgery was being provided in my local GP practice. So, there's, 'How do we shift care?' Because, exactly as you said, it's a symptom of challenges in other bits of the system and a focus just on one bit will inevitably have negative consequences on others. We need to provide care closer to home, pharmacy, optometry, GPs, moving care into communities. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786716 95 En 2026-11-12T10:16:45 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=2839&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=2839&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 5038 5038 Jayne Bryant AC https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 Bryant, Jayne Brilliant. Just on the care closer to home, we know that the Cabinet Minister has said that that shift of resources from secondary to primary care is a focus for Welsh Government. He told us as a committee in September that he was expecting local health boards to present their plans for shifting that 0.5 per cent of funding to primary care over the next month. I'm just keen to understand where everybody is on that and if that has actually happened so far. Robert. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786786 96 En 2026-11-12T10:17:19 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=2873&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=2873&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 12577 Robert Holcombe Holcombe, Robert The aspiration is there, the ambition is there. The detailed plans are probably still in development. Part of the challenges we've got is we've got to maintain safe services, we've got pressures in the acute. A choice to shift resources out needs to be very well thought out and given due respect and due diligence. We need to test if the option of an out-of-hospital service is actually better value in the context of value in the Harvard model, if you like, of outcomes. So, it's got to generate better outcomes for patients in the context of resources deployed. Some of the value will be shifts of services. So, it could be a service that's currently delivered in a hospital setting, in simple terms, picked up and delivered in a community setting where it's appropriate to do so. There'll be a spectrum of that in terms of how much can be shifted. For example, in Aneurin Bevan, we've got community wards in one of our local general hospitals. So, there's a balance of the person-centred local service versus the synergies, economies of scale and link to the limited resources we may have, for example, in terms of expertise of workforce in that wider offering for our population. So, there's a whole plethora and spectrum of things that could shift and services that could shift. I'm aware of plans going on everywhere to look at that. Part of the ability to grow the offering out of hospital is bigger than health as well, as we've just touched on. It's where we can work with local authority partners, social services, education, housing, the third sector to really look at a population-based healthcare well-being model for the longer term. The other element, really, just to be sighted on, is the ability to do all this within the affordability envelope when there will need to be a time for transition. There'll also need to be a degree of faith; if we're looking at prevention and long-term population wellness gain, that's not going to happen at the same pace as stopping services, potentially, in the acute sector. So, I appreciate I've given you a broad answer there, but that's reflective, I think, of where we are currently. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786816 97 En 2026-11-12T10:20:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=3034&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=3034&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786854 98 En 2026-11-12T10:20:10 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=3044&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=3044&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 5038 5038 Jayne Bryant AC https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 Bryant, Jayne I think that's helpful. So, just for me to be clear, we think that not all health boards—. Do we know if any health boards have actually submitted any plans as was expected, or is that still a work in progress? 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786855 99 En 2026-11-12T10:20:23 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=3057&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=3057&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 12577 Robert Holcombe Holcombe, Robert Can I just come back on that? 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786856 100 En 2026-11-12T10:20:24 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=3058&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=3058&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 5038 5038 Jayne Bryant AC https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 Bryant, Jayne Yes, sorry. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786857 101 En 2026-11-12T10:20:25 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=3059&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=3059&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 12577 Robert Holcombe Holcombe, Robert Again, from an AB perspective, we've described and submitted our approach, our intentions, our key focus areas to look at. Do we have detailed plans? Not quite yet, but we'll be putting that more detailed plan together as part of our integrated medium-term plan to Welsh Government in the new year. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786858 102 En 2026-11-12T10:20:44 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=3078&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=3078&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 5038 5038 Jayne Bryant AC https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 Bryant, Jayne And I suppose there's the key question around how that shift of resources from primary care and the sort of potential, you know, when you've got sort of that one under crisis end, and how to move into prevention, how challenging that will be without the funding that goes with that. And I expect that would be something you would be looking for is the double funding, as you've mentioned, for that period of time. Is that accurate? 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786859 103 En 2026-11-12T10:21:09 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=3103&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=3103&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 8427 Darren Hughes Hughes, Darren Yes, and I think the identification of the recurrent funding, it is that sort of longer term. There's a digital issue in terms of getting the information between different parts of the NHS. And we've said how tough things are at the moment; it isn't just the case there's no new money to invest in this, it is a shift of services, a shift of people. The point around training that workforce: GP numbers have been relatively static in Wales for the last five years, around about the 1,500 mark, and there is a sort of time lag, so it's having that wider community team. I think there is a perception often that it's just GPs providing services in communities, but it's the other contractor groups as well as health boards and community nursing teams doing things differently. But it'll be a gradual switch, not a flick and a switch. And I think there is learning in other parts of the UK as well. You've got care closer to home programmes in England, similar things in Northern Ireland, similar things in Scotland, and some of the restraining or rate limiting factors in terms of the capital, which we've talked about, have meant that this is having to happen by necessity quickly, as well as by design. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786861 104 En 2026-11-12T10:22:17 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=3171&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=3171&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 5038 5038 Jayne Bryant AC https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 Bryant, Jayne I suppose it's going to be important that the patient outcomes are absolutely crucial and that's tracked as well, and measured, in the right way. We'll move on to questions from Matthew Jones now. Matthew. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786862 105 Cy 2026-11-12T10:22:27 http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=3181&l=cy http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=3181&l=en 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 12151 12151 Matthew Jones AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12151 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12151 Jones, Matthew Diolch. Dwi'n mynd i holi fy nghwestiynau yn y Gymraeg, os yw hynny'n iawn, ac mi fyddaf yn holi ar fesurau ataliol. Dwi'n gwybod bod amser yn fyr, ond oes modd rhoi blas sydyn i ni o rai o'r mesurau ataliol sydd ar waith ar hyn o bryd, a pha fesurau pellach sydd eu hangen i wneud gwasanaethau yn gynaliadwy? Thank you. I'm going to ask my questions in Welsh, if that's okay, and I will be asking you about preventative measures. I know that time is scarce, but could you give us a flavour of some of preventative measures that are implemented at the moment, and what further measures are needed in order to make services sustainable? 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786863 106 En 2026-11-12T10:22:55 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=3209&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=3209&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 12577 Robert Holcombe Holcombe, Robert Sorry, my translation's not working. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786864 107 En 2026-11-12T10:22:57 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=3211&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=3211&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 5038 5038 Jayne Bryant AC https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 Bryant, Jayne Oh, sorry, Robert. Okay, we'll sort that out for you. Did Darren or Abigail want to answer? 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786865 108 En 2026-11-12T10:23:02 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=3216&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=3216&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 12576 Abigail Harris Harris, Abigail I'm happy to kick off, yes. Thank you for that question. So, there are many things we're already doing in the preventative agenda. There is much more we can do and it goes back to some of the things I was saying around cardiovascular disease. Some of the most effective things are making sure that our population are taking up, and we're enabling them to access, the screening that's available. We've got really good bowel screening and we've got really good breast screening. We've got things like cervical screening, which has changed dramatically the outcome for women in terms of cancers of the cervix. And what we know is we've got more work to do to make sure everybody is accessing those opportunities. Because what we see across the spectrum of our population is that, often, it's those in the most deprived areas that find it most difficult to access those opportunities for prevention. So, we really need to support and think about how we provide those services to make sure people can access those, because we know they work. Getting in early with bowel screening can completely change the trajectory and pick up before symptoms are really coming through as part of the bowel screening. We're working with Public Health Wales around lung screening, so that will come on track—in 2028, I think it is. And again, that will be really important. We know the modelling about how many lung cancers that will detect much earlier, and enable us to treat patients much earlier and then deliver better outcomes. So, I think the whole screening programmes that we run are really important, but I'd say the key message is how we make sure everybody is benefiting from those. Vaccinations will be a second one. Again, a really good public health intervention that's been around for a very long time. Making sure, again, that all of those who are eligible for vaccinations are taking them up, and there are some pockets where that's more difficult to achieve in our communities. So, again, thinking about how we go out to schools and places where people come together to make sure that we can increase our vaccination. So, in addition to screening and vaccinations, the third area is: how do we identify people who are at risk? So, those might be people who are already showing risk factors. So, diabetes being a really good example. There'll be a whole load of people sitting out there who've got all of the symptoms of a prediabetic pathway. And it's about how primary care work really closely with their data, and have the head space within their busy practices, to identify those people at risk and have a different conversation, which might be about lifestyle or it might be about medication, to get people off a diabetic, prediabetic pathway. And similarly, I've already used the example of cardiovascular disease, where we've got more people at risk of cardiovascular disease, or may even have cardiovascular disease, but simple treatment is available to them. We just need to make sure that we're identifying them and getting them on the treatment that would really help in a preventative way. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786928 109 En 2026-11-12T10:25:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=3334&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=3334&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786929 110 Cy 2026-11-12T10:25:56 http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=3390&l=cy http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=3390&l=en 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 12151 12151 Matthew Jones AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12151 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12151 Jones, Matthew Sori, dwi'n gwybod bod amser yn rili brin, so gwnaf frysio trwy'r cwestiynau tipyn bach, jest i holi ynglŷn â'r pwysau ariannol. Fe wnaethoch chi sôn am rai o'r mesurau sydd gennych chi, ond os ŷch chi'n ystyried pa gynlluniau sydd angen canolbwyntio arnyn nhw neu eu datblygu ymhellach—dwi'n gwybod bod sgrinio'r ysgyfaint a phethau fel yna yn dod mas—beth yw'r goblygiadau cost ar hyn o bryd o ran rhai o'r gwasanaethau yma? Ydyn ni'n gweld costau cynyddol? Beth yw'r pwysau sydd arnyn nhw ar hyn o bryd? Sorry, I know that time is running out, so I'll rush through the questions a little bit, just to ask you about the financial pressures. You mentioned some of the measures that you have in place, but if you consider what plans need to be concentrated on or need to be developed further—I know that lung screening and so forth are being rolled out—what are the cost implications at the moment when it comes to some of these services? Are we seeing costs increasing? What are the pressures that are on them at the moment? 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786934 111 En 2026-11-12T10:26:36 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=3430&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=3430&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 12577 Robert Holcombe Holcombe, Robert So, I couldn't give you specifics for lung screening or the specifics from the screening work, but what we're experiencing, as a result of the screening finding patients at either early stage or other stages, is the response we need to put in place then and the costs linked to that. A lot of the screening then leads to further diagnosis requirements: radiology, scanning, endoscopy in terms of those assessments, pathology costs. So, it's the diagnosis costs that are stepping up to go to take the diagnosis specifics further. That may involve genetic testing as well. So, there's a cost step for that and then there's the next step of actual treatment. So, I mentioned earlier, particularly around cancer drugs, that there's been a significant step change of the order of about 50 per cent, which I mentioned earlier, for cancer drugs. Predominantly, in my organisation, we're seeing that linked to haematology, but you've got a significant surgery treatment burden in terms of treating patients who are identified as needing surgery, and that'll be whole parts of the body as well. And some of that may need to go on, not just for secondary care treatment, but for specialised treatment as well, around Wales and potentially England as well.  16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786946 112 Cy 2026-11-12T10:28:14 http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=3528&l=cy http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=3528&l=en 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 12151 12151 Matthew Jones AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12151 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12151 Jones, Matthew Sori, dwi'n meddwl bod y ffocws efallai wedi mynd i early diagnosis yn hytrach na prevention specifically fan hyn. Oes modd sôn am ba fath o gynlluniau sydd yna o ran prevention ar y gweill? Sorry, I think the focus has perhaps gone towards early diagnosis rather than prevention specifically here. Could you tell us what plans there are in terms of prevention at the moment? 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786950 113 En 2026-11-12T10:28:33 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=3547&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=3547&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 12576 Abigail Harris Harris, Abigail Yes, so we look at prevention in three ways. So, first, primary prevention: how do you stop somebody getting a condition or disease? And some of the things we're doing are things like the first 1,000 days of life for a child. If we can start a child on a really good track in terms of healthy eating, going into school at the right weight, going into school ready to learn—and I know that there is a COVID impact still about children's readiness for school—so, working very closely with our local authority and education partners to make sure we're doing everything we can to give children a really good start in life. So, that's all about prevention. That's all about getting children and young people on the right path as they start their life. I think similarly at the end of life, the last 1,000 days of life, if you look at where our expenditure is, much of our expenditure is in those last few years of life in terms of older people. And there is a lot more we can do about ageing well and about how we're ensuring that people do all the things that we need to keep our brains active and our bodies active as we start ageing. We used to talk about 50 being older and you'd start getting your older person's assessment at 50, so I'm well over 50, but it is about how we can do that preventative—. And how can we enable people to do that for themselves without needing recourse to our health services.  So, again, some of the partnerships we do with our local authority—things like leisure and exercise on prescription where people can access leisure services more readily as part of some of those programmes. There are obviously new things like the drugs available for weight loss. Clearly, if everybody who was overweight was able to be funded through the NHS, that is completely unaffordable, but how do we target it to those patients and individuals who could most benefit because they may have other underlying conditions. So, for me, that's the sort of secondary prevention where we know somebody's already got conditions. And then there's the third element of prevention, which is where somebody may have had a health event, like a heart attack, and they have come through that. That's a really important teachable moment for somebody who's had a near miss. They've had something that's happened, and similarly with cancer, where you can then have a conversation about, 'Okay, how can we support you to change your lifestyle and improve that prevention?' So, we do look at it on those three levels. But for me, in terms of the primary prevention, there's how do we start well with children and young people and how do we support adults as they age, and how do we support end-of-life care as well, because we do know that too many people end up dying in hospital in quite an acute phase. We need to do more to help people with advanced and future care planning so that they can plan a dignified death in the way that they would like. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786860 114 En 2026-11-12T10:30:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=3634&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=3634&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786869 115 En 2026-11-12T10:31:31 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=3725&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=3725&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 5038 5038 Jayne Bryant AC https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 Bryant, Jayne Sorry, we're going to have to move on to more questions. So, Safa Elhassan. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786870 116 En 2026-11-12T10:31:37 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=3731&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=3731&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 12189 12189 Safa Elhassan AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12189 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12189 Elhassan, Safa I'm going to talk about workforce. So, what workforce investment must be secured in this budget to maintain a safe service and deliver the proposed additional capacity? 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786871 117 En 2026-11-12T10:31:53 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=3747&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=3747&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 12577 Robert Holcombe Holcombe, Robert Do you want me to pick that up initially? So, it's an interesting position because some of our savings plans are actually to reduce workforce—workforce is about 50 per cent of our spend—and that's through looking at redesigning services and trying to reduce particularly our variable pay, which is agency, locums and the like and the bank. So, that's the one element in terms of the financial impacts we're trying to look at and minimise to basically make our workforce spending go further and provide a higher quality level of care. In terms of where we've got workforce gaps, so in nursing, we have an ongoing need to recruit nurses, because, to be honest, to a degree, that's why we've got variable pay in agencies—the demand on nursing services currently requires more nurses to keep the system safe. We've got certain specialties, from a medical perspective, where we have gaps. We've mentioned orthopaedics and ophthalmology, and I'd describe those as more the common ones, but we also have some fragile services that potentially we need to look at in terms of bolstering the workforce behind that—skilled workforce, of course. And then that is going to be informed by, as we described earlier, some of the joint working, regional working, potentially national, to get those synergies and making sure we're optimising the available capacity we can get. So, in a nutshell, they would be the elements I'd describe that we need to focus on in terms of making sure we've got safe services and the portfolio of services that are required to meet the needs of our patients. And what's already been touched on by Darren is that, as we shift resources out of hospital, there needs to be a shift of specialists or we need to grow our own, particularly in the community primary care sector as well. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786872 118 En 2026-11-12T10:34:08 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=3882&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=3882&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 12189 12189 Safa Elhassan AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12189 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12189 Elhassan, Safa So, you have the recruitment problem with nursing and some medical specialties there. What retention measures have you used to try to retain the nursing staff or the medical staff that have demonstrated results? 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786874 119 En 2026-11-12T10:34:30 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=3904&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=3904&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 12577 Robert Holcombe Holcombe, Robert You're probably better placed than me. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786873 120 En 2026-11-12T10:34:32 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=3906&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=3906&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 12576 Abigail Harris Harris, Abigail There are a number of measures. We've actually got very good retention rates, and in some instances you might want a bit more turnover, actually, so that you can bring through the new graduates as part of our workforce. So, we are very fortunate. The staff survey will be really important to understand, when we get the results of that, how staff are feeling but that will give us information about people's readiness to take on new roles and will support our organisational development and training programmes. So, we are really keen to make sure that there are career pathways for all of our workforce, so that, if it's an entry level role that they're starting with, there are pathways through. But we do probably, certainly in my organisation, actually need a little bit more turnover to create those gaps for people. These are great careers for people, and we have got lots of examples where someone who was a band 2 is now a band 3, and decide they want to go on to a band 4, and actually then we support people to go through their qualification if they want to go on to become a qualified member of staff. And so, for me, things like apprenticeships are really important so that we can bring in that first tier of the workforce, and we've got very active apprenticeships, and I think most health boards have, right across the board, because we have many, many jobs. I'm just thinking about things like our estates and facilities. We've got engineers, we've got architects, we've got the whole plethora of things that also sit outside the clinical roles. So, it's about making sure that we can provide the best career path for individuals so that they want to stay and work with us, but also give people opportunity to move on and out, if it's going to benefit their career as well. So, it's supporting both ends. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786579 121 En 2026-11-12T10:35:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=3934&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=3934&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786783 122 En 2026-11-12T10:36:17 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=4011&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=4011&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 5038 5038 Jayne Bryant AC https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 Bryant, Jayne Brilliant. Great. We'll move on to questions now from Sara Crowley. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786784 123 En 2026-11-12T10:36:20 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=4014&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=4014&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 12150 12150 Sara Crowley AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12150 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12150 Crowley, Sara Hi, everyone, and welcome. I'm going to talk to you about women's health and children's health. I'm going to flip them; I always said that when I'd get elected, I'd put the people who've got the least voice first, so I'm going to start with children. Given the difficulty in tracking spending in children's health—and by that, there are some services that consider children to be up to 16, 18 and some 25, so bear that in mind—how can we here in the Senedd assess whether sufficient funding is reaching children's services and where should the Welsh Government and health boards prioritise investment to achieve the greatest improvement in outcomes? 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786785 124 En 2026-11-12T10:36:53 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=4047&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=4047&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 12576 Abigail Harris Harris, Abigail This is something that we are looking really hard at in our health board, and we're actually going through a bit of a restructure at the moment, because we want to create a children, women and families-specific care group, so we can give more focus explicitly around the services we provide to children and young people. One of the things that we are doing is looking at our patient-level costing and programme budgeting to get a much better feel. It's early days in terms of getting that information to understand what we are spending, and looking at where there are anomalies,in the way that you describe, about how we are looking at children and young people. My personal preference would be that, for example, for mental health, we would have services that go up to 25 for children and young people, and we've been having that conversation with the policy leads in Welsh Government around how do we make sure that, as children transition, we've got a really good pathway for transitioning children into adult services, because it can feel like you're falling off a cliff. I think we need to look at how we span, in particular areas, either where you've got chronic conditions or complex needs, where you're going to require support into adult services, or things like mental health, so that we know, for children who may have enduring mental health and need to transition to adulthood, it doesn't feel like it's a scary step from one service to the other. I'd go back to starting well as well. I mean, we've got really good services working with health visitors, midwives, doing all we can to support women pre conception, through pregnancy and in those early years as children start their life. I think there's more we could do, but there are some really good services in place to support people and their families. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786789 125 En 2026-11-12T10:38:40 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=4154&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=4154&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 12150 12150 Sara Crowley AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12150 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12150 Crowley, Sara Thank you. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786788 126 En 2026-11-12T10:38:42 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=4156&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=4156&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 5038 5038 Jayne Bryant AC https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 Bryant, Jayne And the next question— 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786792 127 En 2026-11-12T10:38:43 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=4157&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=4157&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 12150 12150 Sara Crowley AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12150 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12150 Crowley, Sara Next question—yes, no worries. For my next one, I'm going to choose one of the two I had for women's health. Do you believe funding for women's health should be more clearly identifiable within the Welsh Government budget, and where would targeted investment have the greatest impact on improving outcomes and tackling inequalities? 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786798 128 En 2026-11-12T10:39:02 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=4176&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=4176&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 12577 Robert Holcombe Holcombe, Robert So, in terms of drawing it out as a separate identification section, yes, that would be helpful. I think it would help answer your question that you placed, because it's not that clear now, but it depends. Some of the financial reporting is very historical, so we need to look at that, and we are, as Abi has described. In terms of where we'd invest for best impact, I'd have to defer to other colleagues, but we are investing in women's health hubs with, as well as physical hubs, more social media impacts and products being produced, as well as increasing the offer in terms of staffing resources for various services aligned to women's needs. And aligned with that, in Aneurin Bevan, for example, we're going a bit further in terms of things like the awareness of violence against women and that sort of agenda as well. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786791 129 En 2026-11-12T10:40:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=4234&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=4234&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786794 130 En 2026-11-12T10:40:10 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=4244&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=4244&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 12150 12150 Sara Crowley AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12150 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12150 Crowley, Sara Thank you very much.  16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786799 131 En 2026-11-12T10:40:11 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=4245&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=4245&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 5038 5038 Jayne Bryant AC https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 Bryant, Jayne Okay, brilliant. Right, okay, we'll move on to questions from Gareth Thomas. Gareth.  16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786801 132 En 2026-11-12T10:40:16 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=4250&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=4250&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 12148 12148 Gareth Thomas AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12148 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12148 Thomas, Gaz Hi. So, I'd like to ask: how are you going to use the budget to address the waiting lists and relieve pressure on NHS mental health services? And do you believe that the money should remain ring-fenced? 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786810 133 En 2026-11-12T10:40:35 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=4269&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=4269&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 12576 Abigail Harris Harris, Abigail For mental health? 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786811 134 En 2026-11-12T10:40:36 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=4270&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=4270&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 12148 12148 Gareth Thomas AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12148 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12148 Thomas, Gaz Yes. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786813 135 En 2026-11-12T10:40:37 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=4271&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=4271&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 12576 Abigail Harris Harris, Abigail I'm happy just to kick off. I think it is really helpful that there's ring-fencing for mental health services, so we can look at spend and how much we're spending on particular components of the service. And in line with the new model that's being developed nationally, we are looking at how you structurally change the way we would deliver mental health services. So, thinking about the shift into the community, we know that there's more we need to do to support people when they have a crisis, and for that not to always require an admission, whether that's someone who's arriving at an emergency department in a mental health crisis, or in the community who needs support. So, we really welcome the national model, which has a greater focus on how we build up crisis services in the community that would be 24/7. And we've got work that we're progressing in our health board to do that. I think there is a need to do more around the preventative work around mental health and emotional well-being. So, we've got a very strong programme about emotional health and well-being in our regional partnership board, which is kind of at the preventative end of the spectrum. But the other thing we need to do as part of the model is make sure that there is no hand-off between elements of the service. So, someone might come into primary care, they might be seen by the primary mental health service, they might then be referred on to another bit of the service. Again, the model should be: wherever you're arriving into the mental health service, we should be able to give you an intervention then and there, not sort of wait for you to be referred on to something else. I think that the evidence that's behind that will be really important as we implement that model over the next little while. But I do think it's important to give a focus. I think, for me, the other area—and I say this because we're a big learning disability provider, and intellectual disability provider too—is we do need to again change the way that we deliver that service, working very closely with our local authorities. We've probably got too many people who still end up in an NHS bed who could be living with support in the community. And we're starting that work, and, again, there's national work that will help support that around how do you change the model for learning disability as well. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786845 136 En 2026-11-12T10:42:55 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=4409&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=4409&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 5038 5038 Jayne Bryant AC https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 Bryant, Jayne Did you want to add something there, Rob?  16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786846 137 En 2026-11-12T10:42:56 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=4410&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=4410&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 12577 Robert Holcombe Holcombe, Robert Just to add to that, with a flavour from Aneurin Bevan, really, that the work with partners is absolutely key, from child and adolescent mental health services and children, all the way through to adults, similar to what Abi's discussed, in terms of the wider offering—and, again, to prevent that exacerbation—particularly from counselling, all the way through to the higher end interventions.  The other piece of work that's going on nationally, but locally as well, is looking at where we've got high-cost placements outside of Wales, and whether we can create services that can bring people back to be treated more locally. And there are various options around that, again working with housing partners as well for supported living and getting people back into the community.  16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786848 138 En 2026-11-12T10:43:51 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=4465&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=4465&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 5038 5038 Jayne Bryant AC https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 Bryant, Jayne Gareth.  16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786849 139 En 2026-11-12T10:43:52 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=4466&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=4466&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 12148 12148 Gareth Thomas AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12148 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12148 Thomas, Gaz Okay. So, my second question: how much additional funding will be needed to implement the Welsh Government's ambition of providing same-day, open access mental health support? 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786850 140 En 2026-11-12T10:44:09 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=4483&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=4483&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 12576 Abigail Harris Harris, Abigail That's the model I was referring to, and I think we don't know the answer to that yet. So, for all of us, we will be working through what's the baseline of how we currently deliver services, and how we would need to unlock investment in some bits of the service to invest in that same-day, open access model. All of us will be working through that at the moment, working with Welsh Government colleagues. The expectation is that the national model, and the work being done around how we would implement that national model, is coming to each health board. I think, Robert, it's January that we're expected to bring that back into health boards. Some of us are already—. We've got our own mental health transformation programme already in place, so we're working hand in glove with the national team, sitting in NHS Wales Performance and Improvement. But I think, at the moment, we don't know the answer to that question.  Again, it's a similar point to the one around shifting into the community: how do you unlock the current model and move to a new model if there's no pump-priming? It would be really helpful if there was funding to enable us to make that shift and implement that model, so you're building up your community crisis same-day service, and then you're reconfiguring what you need in beds. We need to find a way of being able to do those things in parallel, and it may require some pump-priming funding in some of those areas. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786570 141 En 2026-11-12T10:45:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=4534&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=4534&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786573 142 En 2026-11-12T10:45:36 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=4570&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=4570&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 5038 5038 Jayne Bryant AC https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 Bryant, Jayne Brilliant. That's really helpful. Finally, I know we touched on digital earlier on, but I'll add one more thing. Perhaps you could say where specifically investment in digital infrastructure could improve productivity. Because we know the importance of digital. I just wonder if you could say a little bit more about that. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786574 143 En 2026-11-12T10:45:58 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=4592&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=4592&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 12576 Abigail Harris Harris, Abigail There are many areas, but one that's very pressing for us is around our emergency and urgent care system, so making sure that our emergency department and the related services I was talking about earlier have a really good digital system. Our clinicians talk about the impact of photocopying paper as records are passed through the system. We are looking at that as a health board. That would make a really big difference. I think for things like booking patients in out-patient systems, we've still got multiple systems that do that. Introducing more centralised booking, standardisation of some of our processes that would be enabled through digital systems, would also be really helpful. And then there's the territory of AI and where that can help us. We know that one of the things that's both a problem for patients and primary care is getting timely information back following out-patient appointments and things like that. There are places that are already embedding ambient AI technology into making that communication much slicker. I think the other area is around how we adapt and build on the NHS app. We've got a patient portal in Swansea and Neath Port Talbot that will merge into the NHS app. Being able to give patients directly their letters, their appointments, have it in their wallet on their phone, and have their record of their appointments, can really help, because we know that that's a much more efficient system. We are cutting down dramatically the number of letters we are sending because people are signing up to receiving them electronically. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786578 144 En 2026-11-12T10:47:35 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=4689&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=4689&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 5038 5038 Jayne Bryant AC https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 Bryant, Jayne Brilliant. Thank you. That's the end of the session. Thank you for staying a few minutes over the session. As you can see, Members had lots of questions to put to you this morning. We really appreciate you coming in and providing that evidence for our scrutiny of the draft budget. You will receive a transcript in due course as well. Diolch yn fawr for attending today. Thank you. We'll now take a short break to change over witnesses. We'll go into private session. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786795 145 Cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) I Gohiriwyd y cyfarfod rhwng 10:48 a 11:04. The meeting adjourned between 10:48 and 11:04. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786806 146 En 2026-11-12T11:04:13 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=5687&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=5687&l=cy 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786808 147 Cy 2026-11-12T00:00:00 http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=-34166&l=cy http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=-34166&l=en 261112-2 2. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 1: Cynghrair GIG Cymru (Conffederasiwn GIG Cymru yn flaenorol) 2. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 1: The Welsh NHS Alliance (formerly known as the Welsh NHS Confederation) C 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786817 148 En 2026-11-12T11:04:13 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=5687&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=5687&l=cy 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 5038 5038 Jayne Bryant AC https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 Bryant, Jayne Croeso nôl. Welcome back, everybody, to the next item on our agenda. We've got another panel. I'm very glad you're able to join us this morning. Thank you very much. We have three witnesses in the room and we're very glad to see you. We have Claire Marchant, who's corporate director for social services and well-being at Bridgend County Borough Council, representing the Association of Directors of Social Services Cymru. We also have Councillor Jane Gebbie, deputy leader and cabinet member for social services and well-being at Bridgend County Borough Council and the Welsh Local Government Association spokesperson for health and social care. We have Councillor Ash Lister, cabinet member for social services at Cardiff Council and WLGA spokesperson for health and social care. Joining us online, we have Councillor Dilwyn Morgan, cabinet member for adult health and well-being in Cyngor Gwynedd and WLGA spokesperson for health and social care. And we also have Nicola Stubbins, corporate director for social services and education at Denbighshire County Council, representing ADSS Cymru. Thank you all again so much for joining us for our evidence session this morning. Members have a number of questions to put to you. We'll make a start with Sara Crowley. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786804 149 En 2026-11-12T11:05:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=5734&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=5734&l=cy 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786839 150 En 2026-11-12T11:08:17 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=5931&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=5931&l=cy 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786834 151 En 2026-11-12T11:07:14 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=5868&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=5868&l=cy 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786818 152 Cy 2026-11-12T11:05:46 http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=5780&l=cy http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=5780&l=en 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 12150 12150 Sara Crowley AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12150 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12150 Crowley, Sara Croeso cynnes i chi i gyd. Beth yw'r pwysau ariannol mwyaf sy'n wynebu gwasanaethau gofal cymdeithasol i oedolion a phlant yn y flwyddyn nesaf? A oes pwysau penodol o fewn gwasanaethau plant y credwch fod angen mynd i'r afael â nhw ar frys yn y gyllideb ddraft? Diolch. A very warm welcome to all of you. What is the biggest financial pressure facing adult and children's social care services in the next financial year? Is there specific pressure within children's services that you think needs to be addressed urgently in the draft budget? Thank you. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786828 153 En 2026-11-12T11:06:07 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=5801&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=5801&l=cy 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 5038 5038 Jayne Bryant AC https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 Bryant, Jayne Who would like to start? Jane, Councillor Gebbie. It's okay, you don't have to press the microphone, it'll just automatically come on. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786831 154 En 2026-11-12T11:06:18 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=5812&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=5812&l=cy 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 10706 Jane Gebbie Gebbie, Jane Thank you very much. Thank you for your question. I think the biggest challenge that we face in adults is delivering social care. We've got ageing demographics, we've got an increase in complexity. One of the things that we see in local government is fewer community services. So, despite Welsh Government direction around health provision for community services—2 per cent of their budget, I understand, previously—we actually don't see that. The only increase that we've seen is in physio. In relation to children's services, the biggest pressure is children's residential care, the eliminate agenda. What I would say is I think we're doing really well, actually, considering the position that we were in, but it's still a challenge. If we don't have that capital resource to finance additional accommodation for young people across Wales, then that's going to cause us significant pressures as well. Thank you, Chair. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786835 155 En 2026-11-12T11:07:15 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=5869&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=5869&l=cy 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 11913 Ash Lister Lister, Ash I think if I could just add to what Councillor Gebbie said, one of the challenges we've got is not just the capital element either when it comes to children's residential. Admittedly, shifting that spend from for-profit providers back into local authority and into not-for-profit does free up some of that money, but there has to be a realisation that, although we are not spending the money in a for-profit way, we're still spending the money, and it still has a similar cost for local authorities and the third sector to run those provisions. So, it's all well and good having the buildings, but we still have to have the revenue aligned to it. I think what we see is a significant proportion of children's services spend covering that residential element. For Cardiff as an example, more than 50 per cent of our budget is spent on children's residential. We've significantly increased, over the last five years, our in-house provision, and we're looking to expand that further into not-for-profit, in line with Welsh Government guidance and policy, but there's still a significant challenge for us. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786840 156 En 2026-11-12T11:08:19 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=5933&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=5933&l=cy 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 5420 Claire Marchant Marchant, Claire Thank you very much for the question. Just to build on what the cabinet members have said, we're seeing a significant increase in demand into adult social care. This year, we've seen a 22 per cent increase in terms of contacts into adult social care, far exceeding what our demographic increase would be. That's a 67 per cent increase over the last two years. Each one of those contacts has to be considered, assessed, responded to in an appropriate way. Actually, adult social care is doing a remarkable job in doing that, but we're seeing significant pressures. We're seeing significant in-year pressures in terms of the impact of that demand. There's cost pressure across Wales of around £84 million at the moment in terms of overspends against local authority budgets. A lot of that is being driven by increased requirements for care in the community. We're seeing significant increases in people receiving care and support at home. That's really good in that we're supporting people to remain as independent as possible in their own home, but just in my local authority that's resulting in an overspend of £3 million year-to-date across our domiciliary care budget. If I may be cheeky and put in a second pressure around adult social care, the volume and cost of specialist placements are increasing. We were just listening a little bit to the input from health colleagues talking about learning disabilities and mental health strategies. There are really good and progressive strategies from the Welsh Government in terms of that move out of specialist hospital placements into the community, but, of course, that comes at a cost to local authorities around housing, accommodation, care and support to those individuals. And then, of course, from the children's side, there's the removal-of-profit legislation. Again, it's really progressive and doing the right thing, but that investment in local authority provision, while still sustaining, for the time being, those high-cost placements within independent residential care settings, is costing local authorities multimillions in terms of the need to make that shift and the short-term impact of that. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786629 157 En 2026-11-12T11:10:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=6034&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=6034&l=cy 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786787 158 En 2026-11-12T11:10:42 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=6076&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=6076&l=cy 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786821 159 En 2026-11-12T11:14:04 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=6278&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=6278&l=cy 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786790 160 Cy 2026-11-12T11:10:49 http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=6083&l=cy http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=6083&l=en 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 12061 Dilwyn Morgan Morgan, Dilwyn Pan rydyn ni'n sôn am y gyllideb, dwi'n meddwl bod yn rhaid i ni ddod â recriwtio a chadw staff i mewn i'r sgwrs yna hefyd. Mae hynny'n her anferthol i ni ar hyn o bryd, a dyna sy'n codi dro ar ôl tro—y telerau a'r amodau, y cyflog, ac yn y blaen. Hefyd, rydyn ni'n teimlo yma yng Ngwynedd bod y bwlch rhwng ein huchelgais ni i wneud gwaith ataliol i atal problemau a'r gallu i fuddsoddi yn y maes yna yn ehangu'n gyson. Felly, mae angen inni edrych ar hynny.  Gyda llaw, tra fy mod i ar fy mocs sebon, dwi ddim yn hoff o'r gair 'ataliol'. Mae o'n rhy negyddol o lawer i fi. Beth rydyn ni'n ceisio ei wneud ydy hybu pobl i fyw yn iach, felly dwi'n meddwl bod angen i ni droi hwnna ar ei ben ac anghofio am 'ataliol'. Ond mater arall ydy hwnna. Ond pan dwi'n cael y cyfle, dwi eisiau gwthio hynny—cael gwared ar y term 'ataliol'. When we talk about the budget, I think we have to bring staff recruitment and retention into the conversation, because that is a huge challenge for us at the moment, and that comes up time and time again—terms and conditions, salaries and so on. In Gwynedd, we feel that the gap between our ambition to do preventative work in order to prevent problems from arising and the ability to invest in that area is widening constantly. So, we need to look at that issue. By the way, whilst I'm on my soapbox, I am not keen on the word 'preventative'. It is far too negative for me. What we're trying to do is to encourage people to live more healthily. So, I think we need to turn that on its head and forget about the word 'preventative', but that's another issue. But when I do get the opportunity, I want to push that point—we need to remove the term 'preventative'. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786802 161 En 2026-11-12T11:11:57 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=6151&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=6151&l=cy 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 5038 5038 Jayne Bryant AC https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 Bryant, Jayne I'm sure you'll get that opportunity again, Dilwyn, later on. I shall make sure we come back to you first on that one. Sara. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786803 162 En 2026-11-12T11:12:05 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=6159&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=6159&l=cy 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 12150 12150 Sara Crowley AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12150 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12150 Crowley, Sara We may be going back to that now—that's going to be my next question.  16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786805 163 Cy 2026-11-12T11:12:08 http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=6162&l=cy http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=6162&l=en 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 12150 12150 Sara Crowley AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12150 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12150 Crowley, Sara Diolch am hwnna. Rwy'n credu ei bod hi'n ddiddorol o ran iaith, efallai. Thank you for that. I think it's interesting in terms of language, perhaps. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786807 164 En 2026-11-12T11:12:13 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=6167&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=6167&l=cy 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 12150 12150 Sara Crowley AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12150 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12150 Crowley, Sara My next question I'm going to ask in English. Are we investing enough in early intervention and preventative services for children and families? Are financial pressures forcing councils to concentrate spending on children who have already reached crisis point? 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786814 165 En 2026-11-12T11:12:28 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=6182&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=6182&l=cy 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 11913 Ash Lister Lister, Ash I think there's a real challenge for local authorities in where they get to direct that spend. We allocate money. All 22 local authorities will allocate money towards preventative work or making sure, as Dilwyn said, that we're supporting people to live healthy, happy lives. The challenge is that, once those emergencies and crises come up and the pressures expand because of the demand that Claire mentioned, some of that money gets shifted in-year. You see the will and the intent is definitely there. But actually, in terms of ring-fencing it and being able to do it, it's a real challenge. When I think of my own budget discussions ahead of next year, the only things I've got left on the table where we could make savings are those preventative services. But actually, they've been plugging a gap for a significant number of years. We've seen that they are working. We're reducing the number of children and young people that come into care. We are working at far earlier levels around exploitation. But if we lose those services now, the demand just increases at the other end, and the spend all goes there. It's very much the same, as Councillor Gebbie mentioned, when you look at adult services. We're not doing that work within the communities to keep people healthy. I've been a cabinet member for almost five years, and every winter we have the conversation about getting people out of hospital with the Welsh Government. The conversation is never flipped on its head to say how do we stop people going into hospital in the first place. We get the money given to us to get them out, but it's never earlier on in the year to say, 'Here's additional funding to make sure we reduce the number of people being admitted over the winter period'. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786823 166 En 2026-11-12T11:14:08 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=6282&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=6282&l=cy 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 10706 Jane Gebbie Gebbie, Jane Ten years ago, we had a spend in social services—. So, less than 50 per cent—. I'm going to get myself—. In social care here in Wales, we now spend 50 per cent of our local authority budgets on social care. That's more than 10 years ago—significantly more. That's 50 per cent more that we spend on social care budgets now than we ever did. When we look at spending £1 in community provision—. I appreciate Dilwyn's comments about prevention, but prevention isn't a nice-to-have. Actually, it's really significant, because for every £1 that we spend, we get £4 back in our community. So, it generates benefits in the community. And that's not just for hospital spend. It's really hard to measure preventative work. That's the first thing I would say to you. And it's not about whether we should have it, it's about, actually, what are we going to do if we don't have it. If we don't have all these community services in social care, supporting families at an earlier stage in their lives, then actually the increasing costs for statutory provision, whether that's in social care or within our health boards, are significantly increased. So, like Ash just said, we do need to flip it on its head. Welsh Government always ask us every year to look at the delayed transfers of care—I know it's new terminology now, whatever they want to call it now—but actually we never look at the interventions beforehand. I spoke to a resident last week, and I think it's always worth taking it back to where we can earliest intervene. If you can't get an appointment with your GP, and, even when you do get to speak to someone, they say, ‘I'm going to refer you into the podiatry clinic’, as an example, now, that's 14 weeks before you're even seen, and all the podiatrist does is refer them back to the GP for blood tests that should have been taken in the first place. So, already there's a delay in that prevention. When we look at anybody trying to get in for any help and support going forward, whether that's children or adults, there is always a delay. We keep talking about mental health services as well, and I appreciate your focus was specifically on children, but actually trying to get a child into mental health provision is so significant and so costly to a local authority. I've had officers take a child, pre-planned, down to A&E because they couldn't get mental health support any other way. They took them down to A&E and the workforce weren't there. They said, ‘I'm really sorry; you're going to have to bring them back later.’ This child was in crisis. It was absolutely appalling. And I'm saying that to the committee. It's not all bad, but the earlier we can intervene, the earlier we can access those early intervention and prevention strategies, the better outcomes we have for our residents. And spend in health boards here in Wales has increased; local government spend has decreased. We cannot continue to provide services in the community, because they are always the ones that first go, because they're not statutory. Bridgend is already recognised for practice worth sharing for our early intervention and prevention, and that's around our well-being, because we've moved our culture, our leisure, our library provision, everywhere that people go to access support, into our social services, so that we've got a joined-up connection. Now, we really believe in what we're doing, but I already know I'm going to get challenged by my colleagues because the overspend that I've got in the well-being section of my budget is already significant for this year going forward. Thank you very much, Chair. That was another soapbox. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786896 167 En 2026-11-12T11:15:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=6334&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=6334&l=cy 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786908 168 En 2026-11-12T11:17:58 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=6512&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=6512&l=cy 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 5038 5038 Jayne Bryant AC https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 Bryant, Jayne No, no. No problem. Thank you for that. Claire.  16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786909 169 En 2026-11-12T11:18:02 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=6516&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=6516&l=cy 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 5420 Claire Marchant Marchant, Claire Just two points. I think the first thing to say is that the risk around early intervention and prevention services—and they do work, and we know that they work—is that they're very largely grant funded, and we need to make them core in terms of that revenue. So, we will have workforce both employed by the local authority and with partners in the third sector who are on fixed-term contracts because of the nature of the grant funding. We also sometimes see uplifts in overall RSG, but sometimes flatlining of grant funding. Well, of course, if a budget is flatlined, that's a cut, isn't it? Because those staff still have to have the uplifts on their salaries that everybody else does. So, that's one really key point. I think that the second point is just a reminder of what is statutory. So, under section 15 of the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014, it requires councils to arrange a range and level of preventative services, and health boards must have regard to the same purposes. So, that statutory duty that we have around crises response and the arrangement of other services, it's an equal statutory duty that we have in terms of well-being and prevention, and we need to see that reflected in budgets, as well as within the legislation. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786912 170 En 2026-11-12T11:19:32 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=6606&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=6606&l=cy 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 5038 5038 Jayne Bryant AC https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 Bryant, Jayne Okay, great. Thank you. We'll move on to questions now from Gareth Thomas. Gareth.  16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786913 171 En 2026-11-12T11:19:37 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=6611&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=6611&l=cy 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 12148 12148 Gareth Thomas AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12148 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12148 Thomas, Gaz Hi. I'll put my glasses on or I won't be able to see anything. The WLGA and ADSS Cymru have consistently highlighted rising demand and financial pressures year on year and the impact these pressures are having on access to social care, including on unmet need, availability of services and the quality of care and support provided. How are you going to relieve these financial pressures?  16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786756 172 En 2026-11-12T11:20:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=6634&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=6634&l=cy 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786757 173 En 2026-11-12T11:20:14 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=6648&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=6648&l=cy 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 5038 5038 Jayne Bryant AC https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 Bryant, Jayne Does anybody want to start online? Nicola or Dilwyn. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786759 174 En 2026-11-12T11:20:19 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=6653&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=6653&l=cy 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 7713 Nicola Stubbins Stubbins, Nicola Yes. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786760 175 En 2026-11-12T11:20:20 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=6654&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=6654&l=cy 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 5038 5038 Jayne Bryant AC https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 Bryant, Jayne Nicola. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786761 176 En 2026-11-12T11:20:22 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=6656&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=6656&l=cy 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 7713 Nicola Stubbins Stubbins, Nicola I think that's really the crux of why we're here today and the papers that we've submitted as evidence for the committee around the challenges that we do face. I think we all acknowledge the rising demand and pressures on the system, and yet the real-term cuts to funding for social care over the last few years are reaching probably a real crisis point, in as much as we have some really excellent services—and we look at Care Inspectorate Wales judgments around care services, and they are predominantly 'excellent' and 'very good'—but that ability, moving forward, feels really challenging and is a concern for everybody. As local council budgets are squeezed, so is our ability to look at the wider determinants of health, which local government is best placed to deliver at a local level. Where those services are squeezed, more and more pressure is put on those statutory services, which is why we lose all of that approach that we've just discussed in the last question around the prevention and early intervention. So, I think the question is very much the crux of the matter that we're here for today, around long-term sustainable funding for social care for now and in the future. Diolch. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786765 177 En 2026-11-12T11:21:59 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=6753&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=6753&l=cy 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 5038 5038 Jayne Bryant AC https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 Bryant, Jayne Ash.  16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786766 178 En 2026-11-12T11:22:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=6754&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=6754&l=cy 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 11913 Ash Lister Lister, Ash Thank you, Chair. I think, just to add to what Nicola was saying, there is some really excellent practice that goes on, and it is at risk because of us being able to fund it. I think one area I'd probably highlight is the regional partnership boards work. There is some very good practice across Wales. There is some that needs improvement. It's the same for quite a significant proportion of local government and public service across Wales. But the challenge we've got there still relates back to funding. So, the current regional integration fund is due to end in March 2027. We've been told now by Welsh Government that there will be a replacement. We're still unclear on the levels of funding that are going to be available. There are still no criteria that have been published. So, trying to do that innovative partnership working to try and relieve some of the pressure, where we know there is going to be money coming down, but we don't know how much, continues to be a real challenge for us. It's essentially working with one hand tied behind your back. Claire mentioned earlier on the input of the third sector as well. And just to declare an interest, I do work for a third sector organisation as well. But, actually, coming up to this time of year, they'll be putting staff on notice if they've got regional integration funding, because they don't know if they'll have it in April 2027. So, that's a significant chunk of that early intervention, that well-being work that Dilwyn mentioned, at risk for the next financial year, potentially for the next five years, because we could lose a service that is then really difficult to re-establish in a way that is meaningful. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786767 179 En 2026-11-12T11:23:35 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=6849&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=6849&l=cy 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 5038 5038 Jayne Bryant AC https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 Bryant, Jayne Councillor Gebbie. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786769 180 En 2026-11-12T11:23:37 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=6851&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=6851&l=cy 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 10706 Jane Gebbie Gebbie, Jane I think it's worth acknowledging that a fifth of our population are now over the age of 65. So, we've got rising demographics. We've got additional people needing additional support. How do we do that? I think every local authority and regional partnership board is looking at ways to deliver, intervene earlier and keep people independent for longer. And we're doing it at pace. I think one of the things that we need to acknowledge is that it doesn't matter which local authority you're looking at, our care provision is always recognised as good or excellent. Well, we really need to consider what we're doing. We're all going to get old one day. I want the care for my nan or for me to be the best that it possibly can be. And that's the way I work, and I think that's the right thing to be doing. But we need to look at the real living wage here in Wales. And I'm not saying that I don't agree with that position either; I think it is the right position. I think we need to acknowledge that in the RSG—. What percentage is it this year? Four point seven per cent, 4.6 per cent, I think, off the top of my head. If we don't have an RSG that's going to match the real living wage, then we already know we're going to be making cuts elsewhere, because it's not clearly identified in our RSG when the consequential has come down to local government. And we're much more generous here in Wales than they are with English provision, but, actually, I think that penalises some people who have worked all their lives and may be unfortunate to need care later on in their lives. But we really need to consider what we're doing from that early intervention and prevention. We keep going back to that early intervention and prevention agenda deliberately, because the longer that we can keep people independent, the longer that we can keep them in their homes, the less they're going to need more social care. There's also the need to look at AI and what tech can we use to keep people safe. We know that, for people with dementia, we can put door alarms on, we can put alarms on every bit of kit in their kitchens, we can see if they've opened the fridge, we can see if they've had a drink, all that sort of thing. So, we need to think about that tech as well. But it's going back to that early intervention and prevention agenda, because we would need that capital budget in order to invest in a service like that for people living in their own homes. Thank you for your question. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786902 181 En 2026-11-12T11:25:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=6934&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=6934&l=cy 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786910 182 En 2026-11-12T11:25:59 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=6993&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=6993&l=cy 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 5038 5038 Jayne Bryant AC https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 Bryant, Jayne Gareth, do you have another question? 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786911 183 En 2026-11-12T11:26:01 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=6995&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=6995&l=cy 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 12148 12148 Gareth Thomas AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12148 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12148 Thomas, Gaz Yes. Second question. Sorry, my writing's all squiggly at the moment. Could you—? Sorry. The WLGA says that the current pressures 'limit capacity for timely assessment, reviews, reablement and earlier community intervention.' Could you give more detail about what this means for service users and how long they are typically going to wait for assessment services and reviews? 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786914 184 En 2026-11-12T11:26:37 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=7031&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=7031&l=cy 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 5038 5038 Jayne Bryant AC https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 Bryant, Jayne Dilwyn or Nicola, did you want to—? Anybody want to start? Dilwyn.  16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786916 185 Cy 2026-11-12T11:26:41 http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=7035&l=cy http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=7035&l=en 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 12061 Dilwyn Morgan Morgan, Dilwyn Ie, diolch am y cwestiwn. Efallai gwnaf newid ychydig bach ar y cwestiwn i ddweud, pan ydym ni'n edrych go iawn ar y sefyllfa, mae o'n eithaf anhygoel, onid ydy, fod gofal cymdeithasol yng Nghymru yn dal i gyflawni, er gwaethaf y pwysau sydd wedi bod ers blynyddoedd lawer. Maen nhw'n dal i gyflawni. Mae cynghorau yn ail-lunio gwasanaethau i ymateb i'r galw ac yn y blaen. Ond, mae'n siŵr, trwy bob peth—mae yna ddywediad yn Saesneg, onid does? The elephant in the room ydy cyllid. Yr analogy ydy, Thank you for the question. Perhaps I'll change the question a little bit to say that, when we truly look at the situation, it is quite incredible, isn't it, that social care in Wales is still delivering, despite the pressures that we've had on us for many years. They are still delivering. Councils are redesigning services to respond to the demand and so on. But there's a saying in English, isn't there, 'the elephant in the room'. And the elephant in the room is funding. And the saying is,  16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 787199 186 En 2026-11-12T11:27:22 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=7076&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=7076&l=cy 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 12061 Dilwyn Morgan Morgan, Dilwyn 'How do you eat an elephant? Well, one bite at a time.' 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 787200 187 Cy 2026-11-12T11:27:26 http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=7080&l=cy http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=7080&l=en 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 12061 Dilwyn Morgan Morgan, Dilwyn Ond dwi'n meddwl bod amser yn rhedeg allan. But I think that time is running out. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786921 188 En 2026-11-12T11:27:31 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=7085&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=7085&l=cy 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 12061 Dilwyn Morgan Morgan, Dilwyn By now, they have got to be—excuse the French—they have got to be bloody big bites, because— 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786922 189 Cy 2026-11-12T11:27:38 http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=7092&l=cy http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=7092&l=en 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 12061 Dilwyn Morgan Morgan, Dilwyn —rydym ni yn rhedeg allan o amser. A dwi'n meddwl mai'r hyn rydym ni'n edrych ar y Llywodraeth i'w ddweud ydy, 'Wel, cawn ni gymryd bites mawr o hyn.'  A hefyd, rhywbeth arall, gadewch i ni ddathlu'r llwyddiannau rydym ni'n eu cael. Peidiwn ni i gyd fynd â'n pennau yn ein plu a dweud, 'Mae'n doomsday; mae'n ddiwedd y byd.' Gadewch i ni ddathlu hefyd beth sydd yn digwydd. Ond yn sicr, yr eliffant yn yr ystafell ydy cyllido.  —we are running out of time. And I think that what we're looking at the Government to say is, 'Well, we can take big bites out of this.' And also, another thing to add, let's celebrate the successes that we are seeing. We shouldn't put our heads in the sand and say, 'It's doomsday; it's the end of the world.' Let's also celebrate what is going on out there. But, certainly, the elephant in the room is funding. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786923 190 En 2026-11-12T11:28:10 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=7124&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=7124&l=cy 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 5038 5038 Jayne Bryant AC https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 Bryant, Jayne Diolch. Claire.  16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786924 191 En 2026-11-12T11:28:12 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=7126&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=7126&l=cy 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 5420 Claire Marchant Marchant, Claire Just to reinforce what's just been said there, the performance of social care in Wales is actually remarkable given the financial constraint that local government has been in for 15 years plus, it seems now. In terms of the impact on individuals, local government has worked really hard to mitigate any impact. People don't wait long at all—we're talking days—in terms of assessments and responses to their contacts. Those waiting for domiciliary care in Wales have halved in the last year, and again we're talking about days and a couple of weeks at most. We don't run waiting lists in social care in Wales in the way that the NHS, obviously, runs waiting lists for their services, but that is at the expense of the rest of local government. So, it's already been said this morning that the proportion of the local government budget that is spent on social care has doubled, and that is projected to continue to be the case. And that's unsustainable, because we've got significant, obviously, statutory duties in terms of social care, but massive statutory duties in all other parts of our business in local government as well. So, it's really heartening that there are now national conversations here in Wales, and across the UK, in terms of a sustainable financial future for social care, but we desperately need those conversations to come to fruition to be able to sustain the progress that we've made. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786926 192 En 2026-11-12T11:29:43 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=7217&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=7217&l=cy 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 5038 5038 Jayne Bryant AC https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 Bryant, Jayne Brilliant. Jane.   16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786927 193 En 2026-11-12T11:29:44 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=7218&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=7218&l=cy 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 10706 Jane Gebbie Gebbie, Jane Just very quickly, I do think it's worth noting as well that, with some of the data sets that you see when you see a delayed transfer of care, with somebody waiting for a package of care out in the community, or even to be discharged from hospital, part of legislation dictates that we have to give seven days' notice if we want to do a best interests assessment. It's not taken into consideration when you look at those delayed transfers of care. We have to give statutory notice to families in order that we undertake that intervention in that person's life. It doesn't matter whether they've been 48 hours clinically optimised at that point; we've still got five days before we can complete that assessment, because it's a statutory requirement. So, the data that you see is often skewed because of various matters that we have to show due regard to. It's a clinical system. It's not a social care system. So, we're reporting into a clinical system that doesn't meet our needs. Thanks very much, Chair. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786844 194 En 2026-11-12T11:30:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=7234&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=7234&l=cy 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786847 195 En 2026-11-12T11:30:49 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=7283&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=7283&l=cy 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 5038 5038 Jayne Bryant AC https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 Bryant, Jayne Thank you. Claire, you've mentioned a couple of times statutory duties. Obviously, we know that the report says that councils continue to deliver and deliver well, and that, despite pressures, councils remain broadly confident in their ability to meet their statutory duties under the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act. Most councils believe that they can continue to meet those core statutory responsibilities. I think there's concern around future ability to do so. So, I'm just really keen to hear to what extent you think local authorities can continue to meet all statutory social care duties within current funding levels. What are the biggest risks to that position over the next spending period? Nicola. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786851 196 En 2026-11-12T11:31:52 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=7346&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=7346&l=cy 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 7713 Nicola Stubbins Stubbins, Nicola We've talked about the grant situation. Within my own county, my children's services revenue budgets, 33 per cent of that is grants. Those grants are actually paying for our early intervention and prevention services, which have been really successful here. Our looked-after children numbers have remained relatively stable in Denbighshire. That has been absolutely because of the approach that we've taken and the funding that we have had to have therapeutic interventions, early help, integrated family support services. But a third of that budget being around year-on-year uncertainty of grants is really challenging. And then when we do have waiting at the front door for assessment, if that happens, the areas of the service that automatically get moved to look at addressing those areas of challenge are our early intervention and prevention services. So, it's really difficult. To meet the statutory services is clearly our priority; safeguarding our most vulnerable children, young people, families and citizens remains our priority. But the difficulty is then we don't get to do the innovative and really important work that we know will create sustainable social services for the future. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786852 197 En 2026-11-12T11:33:38 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=7452&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=7452&l=cy 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 5038 5038 Jayne Bryant AC https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 Bryant, Jayne We know from ADSS that there was a survey and nine of the 14 councils who responded are confident they can meet all of their statutory duties next year. How much of a concern is that to you all? Claire. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786853 198 En 2026-11-12T11:33:39 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=7453&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=7453&l=cy 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 5420 Claire Marchant Marchant, Claire I think it is a real concern. In my answer, I said we don't run waiting lists. We respond to need in a very timely way. If that started to not be the case, then people's needs wouldn't be met. We would have significant safeguarding issues, be it around people who are frail and elderly, be it around children and young people. Just to reiterate Nicola's point around grants, Councillor Lister has talked about the regional integration fund. We don't know what that looks like for next year. The grant that we get around the removal of profit from children's social care is underpinning all the services that we've established within local government to meet that really ambitious and very welcome policy agenda. That's got another year, under the current iteration, to run. And then, another two years after that, we understand that the funding is available, but we don't know what that looks like. If that grant were to be removed, then all that investment that's gone into the local authority residential homes and other services to support fostering as well, because that's an important part of the legislation, wouldn't be there, and we wouldn't then be able to meet those new statutory requirements around the legislation that we need to be progressively meeting over the years to 2030. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 787021 199 En 2026-11-12T11:35:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=7534&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=7534&l=cy 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 787029 200 En 2026-11-12T11:35:24 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=7558&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=7558&l=cy 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 787060 201 En 2026-11-12T11:38:08 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=7722&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=7722&l=cy 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 787030 202 Cy 2026-11-12T11:35:27 http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=7561&l=cy http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=7561&l=en 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 12061 Dilwyn Morgan Morgan, Dilwyn Pan rydyn ni'n sôn am arian grant, dwi'n meddwl ei bod hi'n bwysig ein bod ni'n achub ar y cyfle i sôn am un o'n partneriaid allweddol ni, sef y trydydd sector, sector sydd yn hanesyddol yn byw ar grantiau blynyddol, ac mae hynny'n gwneud y sefyllfa yn anodd iawn, yn amlwg i ni o ran darparu gwasanaethau, ond hefyd iddyn nhw o ran ansicrwydd o flwyddyn i flwyddyn. Felly dwi'n meddwl ei bod hi'n bwysig ein bod ni'n cofio am y trydydd sector. When we talk about grant funding, I think it is important that we take the opportunity to talk about one of our key partners, which is, of course, the third sector. It is a sector that historically has existed on annual grants, and that makes the situation very difficult, for us in terms of the provision of services, but also for them in terms of year-on-year uncertainty. So, I think it's important that we bear the third sector in mind. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 787047 203 En 2026-11-12T11:35:59 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=7593&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=7593&l=cy 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 5038 5038 Jayne Bryant AC https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 Bryant, Jayne Diolch. Thank you, Dilwyn. Matthew. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 787049 204 Cy 2026-11-12T11:36:02 http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=7596&l=cy http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=7596&l=en 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 12151 12151 Matthew Jones AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12151 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12151 Jones, Matthew Diolch. Roeddwn i jest eisiau holi cwestiwn sydyn yn adeiladu ar hwnna. Pa fath o bwysau sydd arnoch chi ar hyn o bryd o ran cyflawni dyletswyddau ar gyfer pobl sydd ag anghenion cymhleth—complex needs? Dwi'n meddwl fy mod i wedi cyfieithu hwnna'n iawn. Diolch. Thank you. I just wanted to ask a quick question building on that. What sort of pressure are you under at the moment in terms of delivering your duties when it comes to people with complex needs? I think that I translated 'complex needs' correctly. Thank you. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 787052 205 En 2026-11-12T11:36:21 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=7615&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=7615&l=cy 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 5420 Claire Marchant Marchant, Claire I think I mentioned a couple of things earlier that I would just highlight again. In terms of adult social care, we're seeing a significant increase in people with complex needs, predominantly learning disabilities or mental health. That's a positive, in a sense, because we've got people who've been many years in long-stay NHS hospitals who, under Welsh Government strategy, are being assessed and reviewed and looking to move into the community. But that provision isn't there at the moment. It needs to be developed, and that is high-cost provision. The strategies don't seem to have capital and revenue funding streams attached to them in order to support that rightful shift from hospital institutions into the community. So, that is a significant area of pressure, certainly for us in Bridgend, and I'm sure in terms of other local authorities as well. In terms of complex needs with children, we talk a lot about the removal-of-profit agenda. We still have significant numbers of children in high-cost independent sector residential placements across Wales. Those placements aren't always available when they need to be, and if they are available, they come at significant cost, because during this period of the transition, we can see that some providers are increasing their costs. We get an assessment from providers about the level of resource and workforce they need to meet those children's needs. We're in a significant period of transition whilst we build up enough capacity in the not-for-profit sector, both local authority and third sector, to be able to meet those needs. That's a huge pressure for local authorities in terms of the cost of those independent sector placements. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 787059 206 En 2026-11-12T11:38:07 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=7721&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=7721&l=cy 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 11913 Ash Lister Lister, Ash Thanks, Chair, and thanks, Matthew. I think this is a key area where there really does need to be integration between health and social care. Many of our children and young people are born with complex health needs. Some of them develop as they grow older, but it isn't something that we're not aware of at the time they are born. So, from that earliest point, there needs to be conversation around what social care and what healthcare we need to provide to give this child or young person the best possible opportunities in life. A couple of weeks ago, I was at a Public Health Wales event on transition. There is guidance in place for health professionals, but it was astounding for me to hear the views of health professionals, who were saying that you can have a 14-year-old oncology patient in Noah's Ark Children's Hospital for Wales that is transferred across to an adult ward because that's where the consultant is, rather than being at the children's hospital. You then consider other cases such as cystic fibrosis; they're seen by Noah's Ark, but actually, the spinal services that go out into other health boards, how do you make sure that transition happens? And the wraparound really isn't there in terms of social care. So, the conversations are had about, 'Okay, we need to now move you from this paediatric service to this adult service', but there's no conversation about how do we make sure we're having that conversation. We tend to work with young people towards a cliff edge as they hit 18 and transition into being an adult. I think whether that's a child looked after, a child with complex health needs, it's very much seen as, 'We're going to look after you because there's a statutory responsibility. We're going to take control of your finances, your health needs, your decision making. When you turn 18, off you go'. And actually, for a lot of our young people, that just isn't the right time. There are cases within health where it's done at earlier stages, as I mentioned, but I think trying to wrap around that care and support as much as we possibly can is where we get these efficiencies. As Claire mentioned about trying to find those placements, if we in social care understand the need, then we can try our best to meet it. There are also times where we are unable to find it, and health is the only provision when you discuss children and young people's mental health. I've had young people who have had to be admitted to the University Hospital for Wales for support because that is the only place available. The answer from UHW is, 'Let's get them out as quickly as possible.' That's fine, it is the right thing to do, it's not the right place for them to be, but there isn't a conversation about how do we work together to find that provision for them. I feel really strongly that this is an area where we need to make sure there is integration between health and social care 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786981 207 En 2026-11-12T11:40:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=7834&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=7834&l=cy 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 787019 208 En 2026-11-12T11:43:25 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=8039&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=8039&l=cy 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786992 209 En 2026-11-12T11:40:51 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=7885&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=7885&l=cy 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 5038 5038 Jayne Bryant AC https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 Bryant, Jayne Nicola, briefly on this point. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786994 210 En 2026-11-12T11:40:54 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=7888&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=7888&l=cy 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 7713 Nicola Stubbins Stubbins, Nicola Yes, very briefly. An area of integration that we should be working on is around the range of continuing healthcare, joint-funded care packages, section 117 cases, and children's continuing care cases for those with the most complex needs. And yet across Wales, there are numerous funding disputes that remain unresolved, some for many years, which is absolutely unacceptable for the individual citizen who is awaiting the outcome of that assessment. Whilst those funding disputes remain unresolved, it's the local authority that carries the cost burden of that care package. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 787001 211 En 2026-11-12T11:41:40 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=7934&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=7934&l=cy 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 5038 5038 Jayne Bryant AC https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 Bryant, Jayne That's an important point. Thank you, Nicola. Just briefly, I'm just wondering what your views are on the funding threshold at which local authorities would no longer be able to meet their statutory social care duties with confidence. Does anybody want to have a go at that one? Everybody's looking at you there, Claire. Dilwyn.  16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 787002 212 Cy 2026-11-12T11:42:06 http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=7960&l=cy http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=7960&l=en 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 12061 Dilwyn Morgan Morgan, Dilwyn Mae hwnna'n gwestiwn da, ond mae'n gwestiwn anodd. Mae'n siŵr mai'r pryder ydy ein bod ni'n nes at y sefyllfa yna nag y buasem ni'n licio bod. Mae achosion yn fwy cymhleth, mae costau yn gallu mynd i fyny yn wythnosol, bron. Os ydych chi'n cael nifer fechan o achosion cymhleth ac anodd, dyna chi, mae eich cyllideb chi am y flwyddyn wedi'i chwalu. Felly, dwi'n meddwl mai fy mhryder i fel aelod cabinet ydy ein bod ni'n rhy agos at hynna ac na ddylem ni fod yna. That’s a good question, but it’s a difficult question. I suppose the concern is that we are closer to that situation than we would like to be. The cases are more complex, and costs can escalate on an almost weekly basis. If you get just a small number of difficult and complex cases, there you go, your budget for the year has gone. So, I think my concern as a cabinet member is that we are too close to that point, and we shouldn’t be in that position. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 787011 213 En 2026-11-12T11:42:43 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=7997&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=7997&l=cy 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 5038 5038 Jayne Bryant AC https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 Bryant, Jayne That's really helpful, Dilwyn. Diolch. We'll move on to questions from Claire Archibald. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 787014 214 En 2026-11-12T11:42:49 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=8003&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=8003&l=cy 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 12179 12179 Claire Archibald AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12179 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12179 Archibald, Claire In April, the previous committee found that unpaid carers' rights are repeatedly going unmet in practice. I've spoken to parents who are still caring without regular breaks or practical help. The Welsh Government has committed £15.75 million across Wales through to March for short breaks and financial support for unpaid carers. What has that funding helped you provide in your area? With council budgets under pressure, how are you keeping the services that carers rely on—like respite and day services—available? 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 787022 215 En 2026-11-12T11:43:26 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=8040&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=8040&l=cy 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 5420 Claire Marchant Marchant, Claire The new strategy, which I think is due quite shortly, and the funding are obviously very welcome. Certainly, in my area, we've spent a lot of time listening to unpaid carers, because we weren't getting it right. I was part of giving evidence to the committee in the last Senedd and they were really stark, actually, some of the messages on a national level from unpaid carers and unpaid carers' groups. That was reflected for us on a local level in terms of people finding the system really hard to navigate, not getting assessments in their own right always, and even if they did have that assessment, it's kind of the, 'So what?' So, we've really worked hard to understand what matters, to make sure that we've co-produced with unpaid carers a plan to address what is important to them. That includes very early information, advice and assistance, which is critically important. We are sustaining and continuing to develop short breaks and respite, both in terms of how we traditionally think of it, which might be in a care home setting, but also—and this is another aspect, I guess, of the increasing need and demand that we're meeting—reintroducing sitting services into individuals' homes so that somebody can have that two or three hours off of an afternoon to go off and do something important for them, and being really flexible about that, using direct payments as well. We have reviewed our day opportunities and continue to do so, but we've got a very strong offer in terms of day opportunities in my county borough. Nothing has been reduced, we've just remodelled it to better meet needs and outcomes. And I'd like to say that we're starting to turn the curve in terms of unpaid carers, but I recognise there's still a considerable amount to do, given where we've been in terms of the levels of support and need that they have. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786875 216 En 2026-11-12T11:45:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=8134&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=8134&l=cy 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 787100 217 En 2026-11-12T11:45:26 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=8160&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=8160&l=cy 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 12179 12179 Claire Archibald AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12179 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12179 Archibald, Claire Anybody else? 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 787102 218 En 2026-11-12T11:45:30 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=8164&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=8164&l=cy 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 11913 Ash Lister Lister, Ash Thank you, Claire, because I think that this is a vital area for us to discuss, because the actual benefit of someone caring for a family member, when you think of social care and health services, is immeasurable. I know that we can try to put a figure to it, but, actually, that person is there as a constant. They are giving over and above to support that family member. And I think, as Claire has mentioned, there's a lot of innovation in terms of, 'How do we meet your needs?', not, 'Here's a traditional respite overnight; you've got a night to yourself.' I'm aware of local authorities who, instead of doing that, will pay for the carers to have an overnight stay in a hotel and then a sitting service, as Claire mentioned, so that it isn't just a night off, it's something you can go and actually enjoy, and the person receiving the care gets something to enjoy as well. So, it's making sure that there is that holistic view. But I think, as well as respite and short breaks, it really is key that we think about the support that goes in for those family members. Deviating slightly, sorry, Chair, but with my third sector hat on, we were aware of a young person and, until our young carer service got involved, we didn't realise dad had been discharged from hospital and the 11-year-old was caring for him. Dad had had a double amputation, was living downstairs in the house, was unable to leave the house because there were steps, and there'd been no contact from social workers because of a miscommunication between health and social care. So, that had gone on for a number of months until the young carer service got involved because the school identified that young person as a young carer. So, I think really it's that wraparound and making sure that we value the input of the young carer or the carer in any conversations that are being had, really value everything that they're giving, and that that gets taken into consideration when we're looking at the health and social care package they receive.  16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 787118 219 En 2026-11-12T11:47:26 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=8280&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=8280&l=cy 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 12179 12179 Claire Archibald AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12179 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12179 Archibald, Claire You're actually answering my questions. So, weirdly enough, my colleague Sara Crowley here has raised numerous times the transition, and you did mention it with hospitals. But I've been speaking to people across Wales about children with additional needs, and the parents, obviously, are looking after them and are, technically, unpaid carers, in a way. And when they leave school—. Some of these children are non-verbal, and from when they leave school to when they get into adulthood, there's no connection with social services as to unpaid carer funding. So, would that be something that you'd be able to look into? And basically, how can you close that gap? 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 787122 220 En 2026-11-12T11:48:13 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=8327&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=8327&l=cy 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 5038 5038 Jayne Bryant AC https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 Bryant, Jayne Jane. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 787123 221 En 2026-11-12T11:48:14 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=8328&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=8328&l=cy 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 10706 Jane Gebbie Gebbie, Jane We already have a scheme in Bridgend, it's called 'When I am Ready', and it takes a young person up to the age of 25, so there will always be oversight from Bridgend until the age of 25. So, that transitional arrangement—it doesn't matter whether it's from an educational perspective, a health board perspective, or indeed children's or adult social services, there's some overlay. And that's not just about care planning, that's actually about where they're going to live. I think one of the biggest challenges we see with families who are looking after disabled children is accessing the appropriate accommodation for them. That's one of the biggest challenges we see at the minute, because even if they do have—. The house that they're living in at the time, when they have a disabled child, might not be suitable for any adaptation. So, then where do we go? We already know that we've got a challenge in Wales finding suitable accommodation for anybody in need. That's even more difficult, because quite often you would need rooms for overnight, sleep-in staff, or their own bathroom downstairs. It's wider—there's much more significant input required in that area. Thank you. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 787126 222 En 2026-11-12T11:49:22 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=8396&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=8396&l=cy 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 5038 5038 Jayne Bryant AC https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 Bryant, Jayne Okay, thank you. Right, we'll have to move on now. So, questions from Becca Martin. Becca. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 787129 223 En 2026-11-12T11:49:28 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=8402&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=8402&l=cy 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 12184 12184 Becca Martin AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12184 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12184 Martin, Becca I apologise, Dilwyn, for using the word, but we've spoken quite a bit about prevention, and obviously there's consensus that you're looking for greater investment into preventative services. I'm just wondering if there are any specific areas that you feel should be prioritised. I understand it's probably going to be quite difficult to come to a consensus between everyone because different areas will have different needs. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 787134 224 En 2026-11-12T11:49:52 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=8426&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=8426&l=cy 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 5038 5038 Jayne Bryant AC https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 Bryant, Jayne Does anyone want to come in before Dilwyn goes on his soapbox? [Laughter.] 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 787140 225 En 2026-11-12T11:49:57 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=8431&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=8431&l=cy 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 10706 Jane Gebbie Gebbie, Jane I'll just say three words, if you don't mind, Chair, and they're 'allied health professionals'. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786985 226 En 2026-11-12T11:50:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=8434&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=8434&l=cy 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786991 227 En 2026-11-12T11:50:03 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=8437&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=8437&l=cy 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 5038 5038 Jayne Bryant AC https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 Bryant, Jayne Okay. Anybody else? Ash. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786996 228 En 2026-11-12T11:50:06 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=8440&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=8440&l=cy 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 11913 Ash Lister Lister, Ash Very, very quickly. Obviously, the Welsh Government is expanding childcare through the funded childcare provision. For me, we're working with young people or children at a much earlier age. Actually, when they have complex needs, that is the point where we identify them, and if you're working with more children, you're undoubtedly going to be identifying more needs. If you consider the Flying Start provision, you've got speech and language therapy, support for parenting, advanced health visiting. That hasn't been expanded in the same way, so we're working with more children, we're identifying more of a challenge for those families, and we're not able to meet those needs. So, I think if we really want to talk about getting in the first 1,000 days, working preventatively to give children the best possible outcome, we do need to look at the whole model and consider expanding prevention work there. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 787031 229 En 2026-11-12T11:50:57 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=8491&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=8491&l=cy 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 5038 5038 Jayne Bryant AC https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 Bryant, Jayne Yes. Dilwyn or Nicola? Dilwyn. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 787033 230 Cy 2026-11-12T11:51:01 http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=8495&l=cy http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=8495&l=en 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 12061 Dilwyn Morgan Morgan, Dilwyn Ie, wel, dwi ar fy mocs sebon eto. Beth bynnag ydy'r term rydyn ni'n ei ddefnyddio'n lle 'ataliol', a'i fod o'n hyrwyddo bywyd iach, dwi'n meddwl bod y neges angen dod gan y Llywodraeth ei fod o'n llawer iawn mwy na gwasanaethau cymdeithasol. Rydyn ni eisiau tynnu cymdeithas i mewn, rydyn ni eisiau tynnu canolfannau hamdden, rydyn ni eisiau tynnu trafnidiaeth i mewn. Mae o'n llawer iawn mwy na gwasanaethau cymdeithasol, dwi'n meddwl, a petasai'r neges yna'n dod gan y Llywodraeth, dwi'n meddwl buasem ni'n symud ymlaen llawer iawn cynt ac yn cael gwerth mwy am ein harian o ran beth rydyn ni fel gwasanaethau cymdeithasol yn buddsoddi mewn—ac fe wnaf i ei ddweud—gwaith ataliol. Dwi'n meddwl bod eisiau inni ailedrych ar sut rydyn ni'n delio efo gwaith ataliol, a pheidiwch â'i adael o i wasanaethau cymdeithasol. Hefyd, wrth gwrs, mae gan iechyd ran i'w chwarae yn hyn, ac efallai'n gyffredinol, fe wnaf i fentro dweud, rydyn ni eisiau tynnu iechyd llawer iawn yn nes atom, sydd yn dod â fi eto, fel cadeirydd y bwrdd rhanbarthol—. Mae'r gwaith mae'r byrddau rhanbarthol yn ei wneud mor, mor bwysig i'r agenda yma. Dyna fo. Fe wnaf i ddod oddi ar fy mocs sebon rŵan, Fadam Gadeirydd. Yes, well, I'm back up on my soapbox here again. Whatever the term that we use rather than 'preventative', and that it should promote healthy living, I think the message needs to come from the Government that it is much more than just social services. We want to draw society in, we want to include leisure centres and we want to include transport. It is far more than just social services, I think, and if that message were to come from the Government, I think that we would be able to move things forward at a better pace and get better value for money in terms of what we as social services invest in—and I'll say it—preventative work. I think that we need to look again at how we deal with preventative work, and not just to leave that to social services. Also, of course, health has its part to play in this too, and perhaps more generally, I dare say that we want to bring health much closer to us, which brings me, as chair of the regional board—. The work that the regional boards do is so, so important to this agenda. There we are. I'll step down from my soapbox now, Chair. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 787034 231 En 2026-11-12T11:52:29 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=8583&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=8583&l=cy 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 5038 5038 Jayne Bryant AC https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 Bryant, Jayne Diolch. Becca. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 787048 232 En 2026-11-12T11:52:31 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=8585&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=8585&l=cy 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 12184 12184 Becca Martin AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12184 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12184 Martin, Becca Did Claire want to—? 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 787051 233 En 2026-11-12T11:52:33 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=8587&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=8587&l=cy 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 5038 5038 Jayne Bryant AC https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 Bryant, Jayne Claire, briefly. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 787050 234 En 2026-11-12T11:52:34 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=8588&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=8588&l=cy 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 5420 Claire Marchant Marchant, Claire Really briefly. Substance misuse, I think, is an area that there is ring-fenced funding around, but if we look at the reasons that children come into the care system and the challenges that families face and young people themselves, I think more preventative work around substance misuse is needed, and that to be a priority in terms of the funding that goes into area planning boards. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 787057 235 En 2026-11-12T11:52:56 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=8610&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=8610&l=cy 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 5038 5038 Jayne Bryant AC https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 Bryant, Jayne Becca. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 787058 236 En 2026-11-12T11:52:57 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=8611&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=8611&l=cy 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 12184 12184 Becca Martin AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12184 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12184 Martin, Becca Brilliant, thank you. Yes, I'm just wondering, have you noticed any particular areas where you've got the strongest evidence that interventions and preventative work work best? Obviously I know, Councillor Gebbie, you said earlier that it is really difficult to measure preventative outcomes, and I completely understand that, but do you have any specific examples where you've been able to measure these outcomes? 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 787063 237 En 2026-11-12T11:53:21 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=8635&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=8635&l=cy 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 5038 5038 Jayne Bryant AC https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 Bryant, Jayne Claire. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 787064 238 En 2026-11-12T11:53:22 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=8636&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=8636&l=cy 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 5420 Claire Marchant Marchant, Claire In terms of very targeted prevention, Councillor Gebbie did mention allied health professionals, but the reablement approaches are very well established, and the outcomes in terms of the numbers of people who have the need for ongoing care mitigated or reduced are into the 80 per cent, so that's a very well established evidence base in terms of very targeted prevention. In terms of children and family services, there is a strong evidence base. We work with organisations like CASCADE here in Cardiff to grow that evidence base. But there is strong evidence that certainly our edge-of-care services have outcomes of 90 per cent plus in terms of preventing children coming into the care system, and these are services such as—. The Bridgend version of it is called Baby in Mind, where we work with families at that point, pre birth, and when they have new babies, and these are children who would be at risk of coming into the care system without some very intensive multi-agency intervention at that point. So, there is a really strong evidence base in terms of the type of children and family support services that are effective. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 787068 239 En 2026-11-12T11:54:32 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=8706&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=8706&l=cy 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 5038 5038 Jayne Bryant AC https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 Bryant, Jayne Thank you. I suppose for some of those schemes that you've just mentioned, the investment needed for those—. That approach is quite intense isn't it, and quite expensive, I expect, in terms of being actually very much worth while in the investment but a challenge on your budgets. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 787072 240 En 2026-11-12T11:54:50 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=8724&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=8724&l=cy 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 5420 Claire Marchant Marchant, Claire Absolutely, and they tend to be reliant on grants. So, if we think about the reablement services, this is an area that is very largely funded through the regional integration fund, certainly in my region. And the Baby in Mind type of edge-of-care services, the children and communities grant—very reliant on that grant. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786974 241 En 2026-11-12T11:55:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=8734&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=8734&l=cy 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786979 242 En 2026-11-12T11:55:08 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=8742&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=8742&l=cy 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 5038 5038 Jayne Bryant AC https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 Bryant, Jayne Brilliant, diolch. We'll move on to questions now from Safa Elhassan. Safa.  16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786980 243 En 2026-11-12T11:55:13 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=8747&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=8747&l=cy 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 12189 12189 Safa Elhassan AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12189 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12189 Elhassan, Safa What funded workforce package would make the biggest difference to care availability and continuity next year? 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786982 244 En 2026-11-12T11:55:24 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=8758&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=8758&l=cy 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 10706 Jane Gebbie Gebbie, Jane I'm going to do this—[Laughter.] 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786983 245 En 2026-11-12T11:55:25 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=8759&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=8759&l=cy 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 5038 5038 Jayne Bryant AC https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 Bryant, Jayne Claire.  16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786984 246 En 2026-11-12T11:55:26 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=8760&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=8760&l=cy 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 5420 Claire Marchant Marchant, Claire So, first and foremost, it's really important that the real living wage is funded in full for local authorities and that it's very evident how that is being funded for local government. So, I think, it's £4, or it's going up to £14.80-something for next year. And we've got to be really cognisant that, when the real living wage is funded, that's got an impact on the rest of the progression framework for providers. So, in terms of funding that real living wage, that's really important. But the real living wage, I don't think, is enough for people doing the most vital work in our communities. So, it's really welcome that we've got the social care negotiating body being established here in Wales. We've got the pay and progression framework that has been developed by Social Care Wales, but that's not mandatory at the moment. It should be mandated. But, obviously, if the pay and progression framework and the negotiation body come up with proposals in terms of what that progression framework should look like for the social care workforce, it's got to be fully funded. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786995 247 En 2026-11-12T11:56:33 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=8827&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=8827&l=cy 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 5038 5038 Jayne Bryant AC https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 Bryant, Jayne Safa. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786997 248 En 2026-11-12T11:56:34 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=8828&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=8828&l=cy 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 12189 12189 Safa Elhassan AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12189 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12189 Elhassan, Safa And which roles and areas face the greatest shortage? 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786998 249 En 2026-11-12T11:56:39 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=8833&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=8833&l=cy 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 5420 Claire Marchant Marchant, Claire The front-line care workforce. The real living wage—I do want to be positive—has been beneficial in terms of improving retention and recruitment, but it's nowhere near enough. We have quite a significant number of international workers within that front-line care workforce as well across Wales, and we need to support and progress their progression too as part of that workforce. The residential workforce, in terms of children's residential—. We've talked a lot about the removal of profit, and this is a new workforce where we're struggling to fill all those roles, and we need to make sure we've got the right career progression across there.  And in terms of social work, I would say that we've got an improved position in terms of social work. Local authorities have invested very strongly into grow-your-own schemes, using, often, grant funding that we received through from Welsh Government. So, we are starting to see an improved position in terms of social work. But I would just make a plea in terms of a focus on workforce well-being as well, because we do still see turnover, we do still see, sometimes, negative media, rather than positively talking about the impact of social work in terms of people's lives. So, I think, in continuing—from yourselves as committee, and everybody—we should focus on the positivity around working in social care and social work.  16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 787012 250 En 2026-11-12T11:58:09 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=8923&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=8923&l=cy 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 5038 5038 Jayne Bryant AC https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 Bryant, Jayne Diolch. Councillor Lister.  16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 787015 251 En 2026-11-12T11:58:10 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=8924&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=8924&l=cy 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 11913 Ash Lister Lister, Ash Just to re-emphasise Claire's point then about that emphasis on positive things that happen in social work. It's very odd, if you look at the difference between children's and adult social workers, with adult social workers, you tend to be looking for them to try and find them to get involved, but with children's social workers, it tends to be, 'Why are you coming to me? We don't want anything to do with you'. And I think we really need to try and meet in the middle with that so that we can support it. I think that point about well-being is key, and a lot of that can relate to capacity and the workload on social workers. When we discuss the complexity of the cases, as Matthew mentioned earlier on, actually you're putting a lot of pressure on an individual to manage multiple cases with multiple different needs and to engage with multiple different partners as well. So, really, it's about expanding that capacity and resource as much as we can with social work, and knowing that the social care is there, to be able to have that support for our social workers and, ultimately, the residents that we're here to serve. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 787025 252 En 2026-11-12T11:59:10 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=8984&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=8984&l=cy 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 5038 5038 Jayne Bryant AC https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 Bryant, Jayne Nicola, just briefly, sorry.  16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 787046 253 En 2026-11-12T11:59:13 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=8987&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=8987&l=cy 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 7713 Nicola Stubbins Stubbins, Nicola Just very briefly. I am going to mention the local authority occupational therapists who are an absolutely integral and valued part of our workforce, with their ability to support safe discharges, but also to ensure independence at home and that people's homes are safe and secure. So, the role of the local authority occupational therapists, and our challenges to recruit and retain when we have an NHS that pays considerably more for that role, is challenging. But without them, we would really struggle.  16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 787053 254 En 2026-11-12T11:59:52 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=9026&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=9026&l=cy 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 5038 5038 Jayne Bryant AC https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 Bryant, Jayne Yes, absolutely, an important point. We'll move on to questions now from Matthew Jones. Matthew.  16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 787054 255 Cy 2026-11-12T11:59:59 http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=9033&l=cy http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=9033&l=en 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 12151 12151 Matthew Jones AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12151 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12151 Jones, Matthew Diolch. Mae'r cwestiynau yma yn ymwneud â chynaliadwyedd y farchnad darparwyr gofal. Felly, i ba raddau mae awdurdodau lleol yn gallu comisiynu digon o ofal i ateb y galw presennol a'r galw yn y dyfodol, a pha fylchau sy'n amlwg yn y ddarpariaeth ar hyn o bryd? Thank you. These questions relate to the sustainability of the care provider market. To what extent are local authorities able to commission sufficient care to meet current and future demand, and what emerging gaps are there in the provision at the moment? 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786812 256 Cy 2026-11-12T12:00:00 http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=9034&l=cy http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=9034&l=en 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786822 257 En 2026-11-12T12:00:27 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=9061&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=9061&l=cy 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 11913 Ash Lister Lister, Ash Chair, if I could start with children's residential, as Claire mentioned, it's something that we've focused on growing, in line with Welsh Government policy. It's very challenging, because we are going from, historically, commissioning for at least two decades out to independent providers, both in for-profit and not-for-profit, and trying to bring quite a significant chunk back in-house. And that relates to capital, it's Care Inspectorate Wales registration, and then a workforce that is suitable and sustainable. So, it's challenging in that sense to make that shift, but I think it's fair to say we are doing really well with it. If I look at my own local authority, when I became a cabinet member nearly five years ago, we had six beds; we now have more than 26 beds. We've really, really worked on that. And I think, although I've just used the term 'beds', they are homes for children. You go into them, and it is just like anybody else's home, and I think that level of care and investment that is going in there is definitely the right approach. But all of that said, I've still got heavy reliance on external providers. That is slowly shifting towards not-for-profit. But even as we make that shift and we commission those services out—and I know this is true of other local authorities—the time frame of being able to do that, because you need to purchase a property, you need to find a provider, you need to make sure CIW are comfortable with the property, with the provider, that all the regulations are being met—. So, that extended time frame to actually get a children's home operational is really, really challenging for us. And from some of our most recent homes, both with a work hat on and a cabinet member hat on, some of the challenges in engaging with Care Inspectorate Wales are staggering: not even being able to register a property because there is one minor default, which could be fixed and you could be given the registration based on, 'Yes, you're going to do that. Before you have a young person in, do it.' Because, without the registration, you can't even start the matching process fully. So, there are some regulatory blocks that I think we do need to overcome. I think Care Inspectorate Wales also needs support in terms of their resource to be able to do the registration, to do the visits. With entities changing over into not-for-profit, they require an inspection within 12 to 18 months, even if they've just had one as a private provider. So, I think really trying to build their capacity as well to support it, which, ultimately, does build that sustainability within the sector. But also just to very quickly touch on Claire's point earlier on of fostering, I've got a number of young people in my provision—and I know this, again, is true in other local authorities—where they can be stepped down, but the challenge we have is that we don't have the foster care families who are able and registered—again, that is a very lengthy process, and rightly so in terms of safeguarding, but there are elements that we do feel could be sped up. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786826 258 En 2026-11-12T12:03:31 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=9245&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=9245&l=cy 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 5038 5038 Jayne Bryant AC https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 Bryant, Jayne Matthew. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786827 259 Cy 2026-11-12T12:03:32 http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=9246&l=cy http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=9246&l=en 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 12151 12151 Matthew Jones AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12151 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12151 Jones, Matthew Diolch am hwnna. Pa mor gynaliadwy, felly, ŷch chi'n credu yw'r farchnad darparwyr gofal cymdeithasol dros y blynyddoedd nesaf, o ystyried y pwyntiau rwyt ti wedi codi yn fanna, Ash, a hefyd y risg o bethau fel darparwyr allanol yn gadael, gwasanaethau yn cau a chapasiti annigonol mewn gwasanaethau neu ardaloedd penodol daearyddol? Thank you for that. How sustainable, therefore, do you think that the social care provider market is over the next few years, considering the points that you raised there, Ash, and also the risk of things like provider exits, service closures and insufficient capacity in particular services or particular geographical areas? 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786829 260 En 2026-11-12T12:03:59 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=9273&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=9273&l=cy 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 5038 5038 Jayne Bryant AC https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 Bryant, Jayne Did Dilwyn want to come in online, or is it Nicola? Dilwyn—. Go on, Nicola, and then I'll come back to Dilwyn. Sorry. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786830 261 En 2026-11-12T12:04:08 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=9282&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=9282&l=cy 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 7713 Nicola Stubbins Stubbins, Nicola Apologies, Dilwyn. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786832 262 En 2026-11-12T12:04:09 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=9283&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=9283&l=cy 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 12061 Dilwyn Morgan Morgan, Dilwyn That's okay, Nicola. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786833 263 En 2026-11-12T12:04:10 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=9284&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=9284&l=cy 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 7713 Nicola Stubbins Stubbins, Nicola I think one of the things we've focused on here in north Wales is our regional work around our population needs assessments and market stability reports, and they really help us to plan our needs for the future. I think we absolutely as a sector agree with the principle of removing profit from the care of children. However, when we embarked on that journey, we were already in a position of not having sufficient provision in the market and the direction of travel has created further instability in that provision. And as has already been said earlier today, local authorities are moving more and more into that provision themselves, opening more residential provision, increasing in-house foster care, but, again, that's challenging. It comes back to capacity within the local authorities to be able to focus on that whilst also doing the increasing complexity and pressure of the day job as well. So, it comes at a really difficult time. But, working with providers and working with colleagues across the provider market, we are starting to see some movement of some providers into that not-for-profit area, but it remains challenging. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786842 264 En 2026-11-12T12:05:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=9334&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=9334&l=cy 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786972 265 En 2026-11-12T12:05:51 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=9385&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=9385&l=cy 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 5038 5038 Jayne Bryant AC https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 Bryant, Jayne Thank you, Nicola. Dilwyn. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786973 266 Cy 2026-11-12T12:05:53 http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=9387&l=cy http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=9387&l=en 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 12061 Dilwyn Morgan Morgan, Dilwyn Ie. Mae hwn yn gyfle i mi sôn am ddarparu gofal mewn ardaloedd gwledig. Fel rydych chi'n gwybod, mae Gwynedd yn wledig iawn. Mewn rhai ardaloedd, fel de Meirionnydd, mae hi bron yn amhosib denu darparwyr gofal allanol i mewn i'r rhan yna o'r sir. Felly, dwi'n meddwl bod angen y sgwrs am gostau gofal mewn ardaloedd gwledig hefyd. Mae'r costau llawer iawn uwch. Felly, dwi'n latsio hwnna i mewn i'r cwestiwn, a dweud y gwir. Rydym ni'n reit ffodus yng Ngwynedd, rydym ni'n darparu gofal mewnol ein hunan, a hefyd mae gennym ni darparwyr allanol. Ac mae o'n bryder pa mor ansefydlog mae darparwyr allanol yn gallu bod mewn rhai achosion, ac yn dueddol o'n ffonio ni ar brynhawn dydd Gwener a dweud, 'Rydym ni'n cau yfory; dyma chi 30 o bobl rydych chi eisiau eu hail-leoli.' So, mae yn broblem ei fod o mor ansefydlog. Yes. This gives me an opportunity to talk about the provision of care in rural areas. As you know, Gwynedd is very rural. In certain areas, like south Meirionnydd, it's almost impossible to attract external care providers into that particular part of the county. So, I think we need to have a conversation on the costs of care in rural areas too. Because the costs are far higher. So, I'm bolting that onto the question, if I'm honest. We're quite fortunate in Gwynedd, we provide care in-house, and we also have external providers. And it is a concern how unstable external providers can be in certain circumstances, and they tend to phone us on a Friday afternoon and say, 'We're closing tomorrow; here's 30 people that you'll need to relocate.' So, it is a problem that it is so unstable. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786975 267 En 2026-11-12T12:06:56 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=9450&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=9450&l=cy 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 5038 5038 Jayne Bryant AC https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 Bryant, Jayne Yes. Diolch. We'll move on to questions now from Safa. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786976 268 En 2026-11-12T12:07:01 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=9455&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=9455&l=cy 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 12189 12189 Safa Elhassan AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12189 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12189 Elhassan, Safa Which essential services are most at risk of uncertain grants and which should now receive recurrent funding? 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786977 269 En 2026-11-12T12:07:12 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=9466&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=9466&l=cy 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 5038 5038 Jayne Bryant AC https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 Bryant, Jayne Claire. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786978 270 En 2026-11-12T12:07:13 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=9467&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=9467&l=cy 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 5420 Claire Marchant Marchant, Claire I think I've talked quite a lot about grants this morning, so I'll continue in that vein. We've talked about the removal-of-profit grant; I think this is legislation for the long term, isn't it, so it needs to be funded sustainably, it needs to be part of core funding in terms of that shift that local authorities have had to make in terms of being providers of children's residential, and growing foster care within local authorities as well. So, that's one. The regional integration fund—a lot of the services that are funded through the regional integration fund are now core services, and so, again, should be funded in a core way between health and social care. So, I talked about reablement earlier; certainly, for my region, that's funded there. We get a grant called the workforce grant into local authorities. For me in Bridgend, that's £2 million a year, and that funds front-line workforce for me. And that workforce have the same terms and conditions as the rest of the workforce, but if they don't receive an uplift because the grant is flatlined, then that's another call on the rest of the authority, and it's one that I always worry about because perhaps it's got a little bit less visibility than others. And then we've got the grants that fund a lot of our preventative services. So, we've got the children and communities grant and then we've got the housing support grant, on which we work very closely—I have housing in my portfolio as well—in terms of that homelessness prevention, because they're the same people that we're, really, working with. So, those are the top ones for me. They need to have a long-term future and they need to have the uplifts reflected in them to reflect the impact on workforce of their annual uplifts. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786986 271 En 2026-11-12T12:09:03 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=9577&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=9577&l=cy 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 5038 5038 Jayne Bryant AC https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 Bryant, Jayne Nicola, did you have your hand up? 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786987 272 En 2026-11-12T12:09:07 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=9581&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=9581&l=cy 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 7713 Nicola Stubbins Stubbins, Nicola Claire's just said everything I was going to say. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786988 273 En 2026-11-12T12:09:10 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=9584&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=9584&l=cy 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 5038 5038 Jayne Bryant AC https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 Bryant, Jayne Fine. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786989 274 En 2026-11-12T12:09:11 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=9585&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=9585&l=cy 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 7713 Nicola Stubbins Stubbins, Nicola Most of those grants that she listed have been around for years—so, why are they still grants? 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786990 275 En 2026-11-12T12:09:17 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=9591&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=9591&l=cy 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 5038 5038 Jayne Bryant AC https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 Bryant, Jayne Brilliant. Thank you, Nicola. Safa. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786993 276 En 2026-11-12T12:09:20 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=9594&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=9594&l=cy 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 12189 12189 Safa Elhassan AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12189 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12189 Elhassan, Safa And just about—. How have—? You've mentioned about projects, or—. If they're ineffective projects, how would you stop them? So, I think you gave an example of someone stopping the service at 4 o'clock and having to transfer 30 patients. I mean, how do you stop those ineffective projects, then? 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786999 277 En 2026-11-12T12:09:47 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=9621&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=9621&l=cy 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 5420 Claire Marchant Marchant, Claire I think we've got really effective commissioning arrangements, but it's part—. I would just say that we've talked a lot about services and providers, and, actually, our commissioning teams in local authorities sometimes can be a bit unsung in terms of the work that they do. They're the sorts of teams that, again, if there are cuts to happen, are at risk of being in people's sights, really. Because if we didn't have people out working with providers, understanding the quality of what they do, whether they're meeting contractual requirements, undertaking that really relational-based co-productive commissioning work to make sure that the services that we've got meet the needs of individuals, then we would be at the mercy of the social care market, dare I say. So, I think we do have effective arrangements, but just to say that those are the sorts of people that you might think of as back office, but they're really not. They're out there developing and growing services and making sure they're of the right quality, and, if they're not of the right quality, making sure that we're dealing with them in line with the contracts that are in place. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 787006 278 En 2026-11-12T12:10:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=9634&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=9634&l=cy 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 787008 279 En 2026-11-12T12:10:52 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=9686&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=9686&l=cy 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 5038 5038 Jayne Bryant AC https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 Bryant, Jayne Thank you. Okay. Finally, a question from Matthew again. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 787009 280 Cy 2026-11-12T12:10:56 http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=9690&l=cy http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=9690&l=en 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 12151 12151 Matthew Jones AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12151 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12151 Jones, Matthew Diolch. Jest i sôn am gyllid cyfalaf. Beth yw maint y buddsoddiad cyfalaf sydd ei angen i ateb y galw cynyddol am ofal cymdeithasol? Ac, efallai, os oes yna bwynt ychwanegol y byddai rhywun yn licio'i wneud ynglŷn â'r fath o beth yr hoffech chi ei weld o ran ymrwymiadau cyfalaf yn y gyllideb nesaf. Thank you. This question is about capital funding. What is the scale of the capital investment that would be required to meet the growing demand for social care? And, perhaps, if there is an additional point that anyone would like to make in terms of the kinds of things that you might like to see when it comes to capital commitments in the next budget. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 787024 281 En 2026-11-12T12:11:27 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=9721&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=9721&l=cy 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 5038 5038 Jayne Bryant AC https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 Bryant, Jayne Ash. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 787026 282 En 2026-11-12T12:11:28 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=9722&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=9722&l=cy 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 11913 Ash Lister Lister, Ash If I could use capital in an interesting way. So, I think, rather than put a number to it, I think I'll put the value to it in terms of societal benefits. Councillor Gebbie referenced the work being done in her portfolio, where she's got that well-being element as well as social care, and, I think, as Councillor Morgan mentioned, it extends outside of social care. So, you have our leisure services, our library services. So, where you can co-locate those services, particularly if you can do that between local authority and health, I think we need to look at investment in community buildings in that sense, and actually make sure that they are accessible. Going back to Councillor Morgan's point around rurality, transport is a massive challenge there. So, I think if we could be really flexible with that capital term, there is significant capital need for the social care market in Wales, and sector, because we need to make sure that the buildings are there, they're accessible and they are able to provide. But if I could also touch on capital in the sense of data and evidence, we have 22 local authorities all using multiple different recording systems for education, for children's services, for housing. You then layer that on top of UHBs, who have significant levels of data storage in different systems, and there just is not the level of connectivity that we need. I know there is reference from Welsh Government around a 'once for Wales' approach. However, to build that system would probably wipe out the entire capital budget in terms of physical buildings as well as digital infrastructure, because you'd have to co-locate so many different systems and fields and actual data. I look at our transfer to an Eclipse system. We transferred over 2 million records in social services alone, in a very short space of time as well. But that connectivity is being trialled and tested by regional partnership boards, and that relationship between local authority and health, and, in some areas, bringing police into that as well, and third sector. It is being done in the same kind of approach that 'once for Wales' wants to achieve, but it's not being done in Digital Health and Care Wales's vision, and there's a lot of pushback that we receive in local government for that. We're told that, 'That might work for you, but it won't work over there', because they're already doing something very, very similar. I think, for me, investment in that capital infrastructure around data, so that our social workers know the last time someone went to a GP, or they know that they've attended A&E, and, if they do attend A&E, they know who to contact, and there's that shared record around our patients and our citizens, so that we can give them the best possible care. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 787080 283 En 2026-11-12T12:14:20 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=9894&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=9894&l=cy 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 5038 5038 Jayne Bryant AC https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 Bryant, Jayne Yes. Absolutely. It's something that this committee has already shown an interest in, so thank you for that. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 787082 284 En 2026-11-12T12:14:25 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=9899&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=9899&l=cy 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 11913 Ash Lister Lister, Ash I have many views, Chair. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 787083 285 En 2026-11-12T12:14:27 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=9901&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=9901&l=cy 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 5038 5038 Jayne Bryant AC https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 Bryant, Jayne You'll probably be back, then. Dilwyn, and then I'll bring Nicola in. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 787084 286 Cy 2026-11-12T12:14:34 http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=9908&l=cy http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=9908&l=en 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 12061 Dilwyn Morgan Morgan, Dilwyn Diolch. Cyfle i mi sôn am dai gofal ychwanegol. Rydym ni yng Ngwynedd ar hyn o bryd wedi gwneud gwaith ymchwil, wedi'i gynnal gan elusen Housing LIN, sydd yn dangos—mae'r ffigurau yn reit ddychrynllyd—erbyn y flwyddyn 2044, sydd yn edrych yn bell i ffwrdd, rydym ni eisiau cynyddu ein stoc tai gofal ychwanegol o jest dros 100, fel sydd gennym ni ar hyn o bryd, i dros 700. Mae angen inni fuddsoddi'n helaeth mewn tai gofal ychwanegol—hynny ydy, cadw pobl yn eu cymunedau mor hir â phosibl yn saff ac yn ddiogel, ac yn rhan o'r gymuned yna. Felly, mae angen buddsoddiad sylweddol tymor hir, dwi'n meddwl, i ddarparu hynny, ac mae o'n rhan o'r gwaith—dwi'n casáu ei ddweud o—ataliol eto. Ond mae angen buddsoddiad mawr mewn tai addas. Thank you. This gives me an opportunity to talk about extra-care housing. We in Gwynedd have done some research, hosted by the Housing LIN charity, which shows that—the figures are quite frightening—by the year 2044, which seems a long way away, we need to increase our extra-care housing stock from a little over 100, which we have at the moment, to over 700. We need to invest substantially in extra-care housing to keep people in their communities as long as possible, and to keep them safe and part of that community. But that needs significant long-term investment to provide that, and it is part of that—I hate to use the word—preventative work again. But we need substantial investment in appropriate housing.  16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786881 287 Cy 2026-11-12T12:15:00 http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=9934&l=cy http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=9934&l=en 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786882 288 En 2026-11-12T12:15:36 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=9970&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=9970&l=cy 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786885 289 En 2026-11-12T12:16:14 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=10008&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=10008&l=cy 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786901 290 En 2026-11-12T12:18:15 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=10129&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=10129&l=cy 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786883 291 En 2026-11-12T12:15:40 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=9974&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=9974&l=cy 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 7713 Nicola Stubbins Stubbins, Nicola We sometimes talk about buildings, but it's also the technology around the buildings, so assistive technology, telecare and so on. When we talk about capital, which is really important, we cannot separate it from revenue, from workforce, from commissioning. We can't just fund buildings in isolation. I think that point has been mentioned, but I'll reiterate it: capital on its own will only go so far. We need the whole package. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786886 292 En 2026-11-12T12:16:16 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=10010&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=10010&l=cy 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 10706 Jane Gebbie Gebbie, Jane Just very quickly, I'm going to put your capital spend on its head, really, because the Welsh Government have been talking about a national care service for a long time now. It would give us parity of esteem for our workforce. It would look at that workforce element in greater detail, and it would ensure that people want to come and work for social care. One of the bits of data I collected before coming to committee today was that, on current trends, social care spend will reach around £4.4 billion in six years' time. Since the Senedd and the Welsh Government were introduced here in Wales, it will exceed education for the first time in six years' time. That gives you an indication of the ageing demographics that we keep talking about and keep shouting about here. We really do mean it. We've got an ageing demographic. We can't continue to do what we've always done or we'll always get what we've always got, but people do need care out there. We know that we've got an ageing population, but, actually, the complexity of care is really significant as well. And we need that parity of esteem for all of our workforce, please.  16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786895 293 En 2026-11-12T12:17:28 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=10082&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=10082&l=cy 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 5038 5038 Jayne Bryant AC https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 Bryant, Jayne I think that's an important point for us to end on today. So, diolch yn fawr, thank you so much for coming to give evidence to us. We really do appreciate it. [Interruption.] We are over time, Sara. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786897 294 En 2026-11-12T12:17:43 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=10097&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=10097&l=cy 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 12150 12150 Sara Crowley AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12150 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12150 Crowley, Sara [Inaudible.]—thank you for saying that, because I now understand what you meant. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786898 295 En 2026-11-12T12:17:49 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=10103&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=10103&l=cy 261112-3 3. Cyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 - Sesiwn dystiolaeth 2: Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru (CLILC) a Cymdeithas Cyfarwyddwyr Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (ADSS) Cymru 3. Welsh Government Draft Budget 2027-28 - evidence session 2: Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) and Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) Cymru C 5038 5038 Jayne Bryant AC https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 Bryant, Jayne Thank you, Sara. We're very grateful to you for coming in to give evidence to us today. It'll really help us with our work going forward. So, thank you very much for the time. You will receive a transcript in due course to check for factual accuracy. But once again, diolch yn fawr, thank you. Thank you very much.  16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786900 296 En 2026-11-12T12:18:13 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=10127&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=10127&l=cy 261112-4 4. Papurau i'w nodi 4. Papers to Note C 5038 5038 Jayne Bryant AC https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 Bryant, Jayne We'll now move on to the next point on our agenda, which is papers to note. Members have a number of papers in front of them to note. Are Members content to note those papers? Yes, I can see all Members are content to note. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786904 297 Cy 261112-5 5. Cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.42 (vi) a (ix) i benderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y cyfarfod heddiw ac o'r cyfarfodydd ddydd Iau 19 a 26 Tachwedd er mwyn ystyried blaenraglen waith y Pwyllgor, ffyrdd o weithio yn y dyfodol a chael sesiwn friffio ar Gyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 5. Motion under Standing Order 17.42 (vi) and (ix) to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of today’s meeting and for the meetings on Thursday 19 and 26 November to consider the Committee's forward work programme, future ways of working and to receive a briefing on the Welsh Government's draft budget 2027-28 I Cynnig: bod y pwyllgor yn penderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y cyfarfod, a'r cyfarfodydd ar 19 a 26 Tachwedd, yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 17.42(vi) a (ix). Motion: that the committee resolves to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting, and the meetings on 19 and 26 November, in accordance with Standing Order 17.42(vi) and (ix). 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786905 298 Cy 261112-5 5. Cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.42 (vi) a (ix) i benderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y cyfarfod heddiw ac o'r cyfarfodydd ddydd Iau 19 a 26 Tachwedd er mwyn ystyried blaenraglen waith y Pwyllgor, ffyrdd o weithio yn y dyfodol a chael sesiwn friffio ar Gyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 5. Motion under Standing Order 17.42 (vi) and (ix) to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of today’s meeting and for the meetings on Thursday 19 and 26 November to consider the Committee's forward work programme, future ways of working and to receive a briefing on the Welsh Government's draft budget 2027-28 I Cynigiwyd y cynnig. Motion moved. 16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786906 299 En 2026-11-12T12:18:29 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16404?startPos=10143&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16404?startPos=10143&l=cy 261112-5 5. Cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.42 (vi) a (ix) i benderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y cyfarfod heddiw ac o'r cyfarfodydd ddydd Iau 19 a 26 Tachwedd er mwyn ystyried blaenraglen waith y Pwyllgor, ffyrdd o weithio yn y dyfodol a chael sesiwn friffio ar Gyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 5. Motion under Standing Order 17.42 (vi) and (ix) to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of today’s meeting and for the meetings on Thursday 19 and 26 November to consider the Committee's forward work programme, future ways of working and to receive a briefing on the Welsh Government's draft budget 2027-28 C 5038 5038 Jayne Bryant AC https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=5038 Bryant, Jayne We'll now move on to the next item on our agenda, which is to move into private session. I propose, in accordance with Standing Order 17.42(vi) and (ix), that the committee resolves to exclude the public from the remainder of today's meeting to consider the evidence heard this morning, and for the meetings on 19 and 26 November to consider its forward work programme, future ways of working, and to receive a briefing on the Welsh Government's draft budget for 2027-28. Are Members content to move into private? I see all Members are content. We'll now proceed to meet in private.   16404 7 2026-11-12T09:29:34 786907 300 Cy 261112-5 5. Cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.42 (vi) a (ix) i benderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y cyfarfod heddiw ac o'r cyfarfodydd ddydd Iau 19 a 26 Tachwedd er mwyn ystyried blaenraglen waith y Pwyllgor, ffyrdd o weithio yn y dyfodol a chael sesiwn friffio ar Gyllideb Ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2027-28 5. Motion under Standing Order 17.42 (vi) and (ix) to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of today’s meeting and for the meetings on Thursday 19 and 26 November to consider the Committee's forward work programme, future ways of working and to receive a briefing on the Welsh Government's draft budget 2027-28 I Derbyniwyd y cynnig. Daeth rhan gyhoeddus y cyfarfod i ben am 12:19. Motion agreed. The public part of the meeting ended at 12:19.