16177 7 2026-07-02T09:30:50 766210 0 Cy 260702-0 I Cofnodir y trafodion yn yr iaith y llefarwyd hwy ynddi yn y pwyllgor. Yn ogystal, cynhwysir trawsgrifiad o’r cyfieithu ar y pryd. Lle mae cyfranwyr wedi darparu cywiriadau i’w tystiolaeth, nodir y rheini yn y trawsgrifiad. The proceedings are reported in the language in which they were spoken in the committee. In addition, a transcription of the simultaneous interpretation is included. Where contributors have supplied corrections to their evidence, these are noted in the transcript. 16177 7 2026-07-02T09:30:50 766168 1 Cy 260702-0 I Cyfarfu’r pwyllgor yn y Senedd a thrwy gynhadledd fideo. Dechreuodd y cyfarfod am 09:30. The committee met in the Senedd and by video-conference. The meeting began at 09:30. 16177 7 2026-07-02T09:30:50 766167 2 En 2026-07-02T09:30:51 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16177?startPos=7&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16177?startPos=7&l=cy 260702-1 1. Cyflwyniad, ymddiheuriadau, dirprwyon a datgan buddiannau 1. Introduction, apologies, substitutions and declarations of interest C 278 278 Carrie Harper AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=278 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=278 Harper, Carrie Bore da. Can I welcome Members and the public to this first meeting of the Constitution, Justice and External Affairs Committee of the seventh Senedd? The public items of the meeting are being broadcast live on Senedd.tv and the Record of Proceedings will be published in due course. This is a bilingual meeting and so simultaneous interpretation from Welsh to English is available. I've received apologies for today's meeting from Cristiana Emsley MS, and Lynne Neagle MS will be joining us online. Before we proceed, can I just check if Members have got any declarations of interest? No. 16177 7 2026-07-02T09:30:50 766173 3 En 2026-07-02T09:31:29 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16177?startPos=45&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16177?startPos=45&l=cy 260702-2 2. Cylch gorchwyl a chyfrifoldebau’r Pwyllgor 2. Remit and responsibilities of the Committee C 278 278 Carrie Harper AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=278 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=278 Harper, Carrie We'll move on to item 2. The purpose of our first substantive item this morning is to consider the remit and responsibilities of the committee. Paper 1 in your pack sets out the committee's remit as agreed by the Senedd on 16 June. The paper outlines the committee's role in examining legislation and scrutinising Welsh Government activity across areas including constitutional affairs, justice, external affairs, trade, matters related to Senedd elections and the implementation of the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015. The committee may also have a responsibility for undertaking reviews required under the Senedd Cymru (Members and Elections) Act 2024. However, this will be dependent on the Senedd agreeing the relevant motions required to be tabled by the Llywydd under the Act. Do Members have any comments they wish to make? No. 16177 7 2026-07-02T09:30:50 766175 4 En 2026-07-02T09:32:29 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16177?startPos=105&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16177?startPos=105&l=cy 260702-3 3. Papurau i’w nodi 3. Papers to note C 278 278 Carrie Harper AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=278 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=278 Harper, Carrie Moving on to item 3, we will consider the committee's papers to note. Item 3.1 includes two letters relating to the previous Senedd's Culture, Communications, Welsh Language, Sport and International Relations Committee's work on the UK-Germany treaty on friendship and bilateral co-operation. Stephen Doughty MP, the Minister of state in the UK Government, responded during dissolution to correspondence from the Chair of that sixth Senedd committee. In his letter, he confirms that Welsh officials were consulted during negotiations and will remain engaged on devolved matters and wider bilateral co-operation. The subject matter now falls within this committee's remit. Do Members have any comments they wish to make? No.  Under item 3.2, we’ve received three letters relating to the attendance of Welsh Government Ministers at meetings of inter-ministerial groups. Some Members will be aware that, in the last Senedd, the previous Welsh Government agreed to provide advance notice to Senedd committees of these meetings taking place. As part of this inter-institutional relations agreement, the Welsh Government also agreed to share with committees outlines of the discussions held. In the sixth Senedd, the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee had oversight of the agreement. In the spirit of that former agreement, the Llywydd has received two notifications, which have now been shared with us, and we'll be considering how we could take the agreement forward in our next meeting. Firstly, the Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Social Justice and Equality, Sioned Williams MS, writes that a meeting of the Interministerial Group for Safety, Security and Migration will take place on 9 September. The Deputy First Minister confirms that a joint communiqué will be published following that meeting, which the Senedd will be notified of in due course. Secondly, the Cabinet Minister for Government Effectiveness and the Constitution, Dafydd Trystan Davies MS, writes in relation to a meeting of the Interministerial Standing Committee, which took place on 24 June. The Interministerial Standing Committee forms part of the middle tier of inter-governmental machinery in the United Kingdom, below the Prime Minister and Heads of Devolved Governments Council, and oversees all inter-ministerial groups. The focus of this meeting of the standing committee was Government priorities, live issues, the middle east, and cost-of-living pressures. Lastly, the Cabinet Minister for Enterprise, Connectivity and Energy, Adam Price MS, writes to the confirm that a meeting of the Interministerial Group for Net Zero, Energy and Climate Change took place yesterday. The discussion points for the meeting included a discussion on respective Government priorities, including the impact on energy as a result of the situation in the middle east. The Cabinet Minister confirms that he will write to us with a summary of discussions. Do Members have any comments? Darren.  16177 7 2026-07-02T09:30:50 766183 5 En 2026-07-02T09:35:00 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16177?startPos=256&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16177?startPos=256&l=cy 260702-3 3. Papurau i’w nodi 3. Papers to note C 16177 7 2026-07-02T09:30:50 766200 6 En 2026-07-02T09:37:49 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16177?startPos=425&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16177?startPos=425&l=cy 260702-3 3. Papurau i’w nodi 3. Papers to note C 16177 7 2026-07-02T09:30:50 766201 7 En 2026-07-02T09:37:50 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16177?startPos=426&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16177?startPos=426&l=cy 260702-3 3. Papurau i’w nodi 3. Papers to note C 16177 7 2026-07-02T09:30:50 766194 8 En 2026-07-02T09:36:10 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16177?startPos=326&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16177?startPos=326&l=cy 260702-3 3. Papurau i’w nodi 3. Papers to note C 16177 7 2026-07-02T09:30:50 766195 9 En 2026-07-02T09:36:11 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16177?startPos=327&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16177?startPos=327&l=cy 260702-3 3. Papurau i’w nodi 3. Papers to note C 16177 7 2026-07-02T09:30:50 766197 10 En 2026-07-02T09:36:33 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16177?startPos=349&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16177?startPos=349&l=cy 260702-3 3. Papurau i’w nodi 3. Papers to note C 16177 7 2026-07-02T09:30:50 766198 11 En 2026-07-02T09:36:37 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16177?startPos=353&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16177?startPos=353&l=cy 260702-3 3. Papurau i’w nodi 3. Papers to note C 16177 7 2026-07-02T09:30:50 766193 12 En 2026-07-02T09:35:44 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16177?startPos=300&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16177?startPos=300&l=cy 260702-3 3. Papurau i’w nodi 3. Papers to note C 171 171 Darren Millar AC https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=171 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=171 Millar, Darren Obviously, we do get written statements as well on the outcome of these meetings, tabled before the Senedd. But I wonder whether there's an opportunity for us to ask and work with our equivalent committees in other Parliaments about observer status at some of these inter-ministerial gatherings. Because it's one thing to receive a statement, which is someone's view on how the meeting went, but, as everybody in this room will know, you can very often go to a meeting and have very different versions of events that have taken place. I think it would be a good thing if we were able to request or suggest to the Welsh Government, and the other Governments involved, that there be some sort of observer status for the parliamentary committees. 16177 7 2026-07-02T09:30:50 766196 13 En 2026-07-02T09:36:32 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16177?startPos=348&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16177?startPos=348&l=cy 260702-3 3. Papurau i’w nodi 3. Papers to note C 278 278 Carrie Harper AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=278 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=278 Harper, Carrie That's something I'm happy to pick up in private session, Darren, to take that forward, if that's okay. Are there any other comments from Members on that correspondence? No. We'll move on to item 3.3. Paper 7 is a letter from the Cabinet Minister for Finance, Elin Jones MS, about the UK Government's commitment to update the Welsh Government's borrowing and reserve arrangements, as announced in the UK autumn budget on 26 November 2025. The Cabinet Minister explains the changes to Wales's fiscal flexibilities being introduced, and notes that these changes require UK legislative action through an Order made under the Government of Wales Act 2006. The Cabinet Minister encloses draft versions of the relevant Order and an accompanying explanatory memorandum. Do Members have any comments? Darren.  16177 7 2026-07-02T09:30:50 766199 14 En 2026-07-02T09:37:29 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16177?startPos=405&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16177?startPos=405&l=cy 260702-3 3. Papurau i’w nodi 3. Papers to note C 171 171 Darren Millar AC https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=171 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=171 Millar, Darren The figures are totally inadequate, aren't they, in terms of the borrowing limits. I think we ought to respond to say that. It's likely that there's going to be a new Prime Minister very soon, isn't it, and there could be a different view, potentially. So, I think we need to be petitioning for a change that is more proportionate. 16177 7 2026-07-02T09:30:50 766202 15 En 2026-07-02T09:37:51 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16177?startPos=427&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16177?startPos=427&l=cy 260702-3 3. Papurau i’w nodi 3. Papers to note C 278 278 Carrie Harper AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=278 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=278 Harper, Carrie Yes, absolutely. That, again, is something we can pick up in private session as well, if Members would like to write on that issue. Pred.  16177 7 2026-07-02T09:30:50 766203 16 En 2026-07-02T09:37:57 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16177?startPos=433&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16177?startPos=433&l=cy 260702-3 3. Papurau i’w nodi 3. Papers to note C 8579 8579 Peredur Owen Griffiths AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8579 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8579 Griffiths, Peredur Owen I concur with Darren there. As former Chair of the Finance Committee of this place, it's something that we've highlighted time and time again, that the borrowing power of the Welsh Government is less than some of our local authorities. Prudential borrowing powers is something that we should have. So, yes, I concur with Darren. If we're able to do that in private, then that would be great. Thank you.  16177 7 2026-07-02T09:30:50 766204 17 En 2026-07-02T09:38:24 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16177?startPos=460&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16177?startPos=460&l=cy 260702-3 3. Papurau i’w nodi 3. Papers to note C 278 278 Carrie Harper AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=278 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=278 Harper, Carrie Everybody's nodding. I can see some consensus on that, so we will pick that one up for further discussion.  16177 7 2026-07-02T09:30:50 766206 18 Cy 260702-4 4. Cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.42(ix) i benderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y cyfarfod. 4. Motion under Standing Order 17.42 (ix) to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting I Cynnig: bod y pwyllgor yn penderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y cyfarfod yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 17.42(ix). Motion: that the committee resolves to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting in accordance with Standing Order 17.42(ix). 16177 7 2026-07-02T09:30:50 766207 19 Cy 260702-4 4. Cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.42(ix) i benderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y cyfarfod. 4. Motion under Standing Order 17.42 (ix) to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting I Cynigiwyd y cynnig. Motion moved. 16177 7 2026-07-02T09:30:50 766208 20 En 2026-07-02T09:38:29 http://www.senedd.tv/en/16177?startPos=465&l=en http://www.senedd.tv/cy/16177?startPos=465&l=cy 260702-4 4. Cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.42(ix) i benderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y cyfarfod. 4. Motion under Standing Order 17.42 (ix) to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting C 278 278 Carrie Harper AS https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=278 https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=278 Harper, Carrie We'll move on to item 4. I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42(ix) that the committee resolves to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting in order to discuss matters relating to the internal business of the committee. Can I ask if Members are content? I can see that everybody is content, so we will now proceed in private. 16177 7 2026-07-02T09:30:50 766209 21 Cy 260702-4 4. Cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.42(ix) i benderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y cyfarfod. 4. Motion under Standing Order 17.42 (ix) to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting I Derbyniwyd y cynnig. Daeth rhan gyhoeddus y cyfarfod i ben am 09:38. Motion agreed. The public part of the meeting ended at 09:38.