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<p>Cofnodir y trafodion yn yr iaith y llefarwyd hwy ynddi yn y pwyllgor. Yn ogystal, cynhwysir trawsgrifiad o’r cyfieithu ar y pryd. Mae hon yn fersiwn ddrafft o’r cofnod. </p>
<p>The proceedings are reported in the language in which they were spoken in the committee. In addition, a transcription of the simultaneous interpretation is included. This is a draft version of the record. </p>
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<p>Cyfarfu’r pwyllgor yn y Senedd a thrwy gynhadledd fideo.</p>
<p>Dechreuodd y cyfarfod am 13:30.</p>
<p>The committee met in the Senedd and by video-conference.</p>
<p>The meeting began at 13:30.</p>
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1. Introductions, apologies, substitutions and declarations of interest
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Sarah Cooper-Lesadd AS
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12167
https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12167
Cooper-Lesadd, Sarah
<p>Committee has now begun. Does anyone have any interests to declare?</p>
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1. Introductions, apologies, substitutions and declarations of interest
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Huw Thomas AS
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12156
https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12156
Thomas, Huw
<p>Chair?</p>
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1. Introductions, apologies, substitutions and declarations of interest
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Sarah Cooper-Lesadd AS
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12167
https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12167
Cooper-Lesadd, Sarah
<p>Yes.</p>
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1. Introductions, apologies, substitutions and declarations of interest
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Huw Thomas AS
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12156
https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12156
Thomas, Huw
<p>I've got an interest in item 2.1. I'm a local education authority-appointed school governor. And in item 8, I have a family member working in the related sector.</p>
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1. Introductions, apologies, substitutions and declarations of interest
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Sarah Cooper-Lesadd AS
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12167
https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12167
Cooper-Lesadd, Sarah
<p>Fab, thank you.</p>
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1. Introductions, apologies, substitutions and declarations of interest
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Peredur Owen Griffiths AS
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8579
https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8579
Griffiths, Peredur Owen
<p>I'm a school governor, when it comes to item 2.1.</p>
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1. Introductions, apologies, substitutions and declarations of interest
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Sarah Cooper-Lesadd AS
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12167
https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12167
Cooper-Lesadd, Sarah
<p>Great, thank you. That's brilliant.</p>
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1. Introductions, apologies, substitutions and declarations of interest
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Adrian Mason AS
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12181
https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12181
Mason, Adrian
<p>And the same for me—chair of governors at a school.</p>
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260706-1
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1. Introductions, apologies, substitutions and declarations of interest
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Sarah Cooper-Lesadd AS
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12167
https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12167
Cooper-Lesadd, Sarah
<p>Fantastic. Does anyone else have any other interests that they'd like to declare? Great. In that case, we can move on. This meeting is being broadcast on Senedd.tv and a record of the proceedings will be published online as usual. If we could have mobile phones switched to silent, as normal. And the Senedd operates through the medium of both the Welsh and English languages and interpretation is available during today's meeting. Thank you to everyone who has given their language preferences—that's brilliant.</p>
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260706-2
2. Offerynnau sy'n cynnwys materion i gyflwyno adroddiad arnynt i'r Senedd o dan Reol Sefydlog 21.2 neu 21.3
2. Instruments that raise issues to be reported under Standing Order 21.2 or 21.3
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Sarah Cooper-Lesadd AS
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12167
https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12167
Cooper-Lesadd, Sarah
<p>So, if everyone is content, we're going to move on to item 2, which is the Education (School Day and School Year) (Wales) (Amendment) Regulations 2026. You would have received those papers in your packs. These regulations make provision about the length of the school day and the school year. So, basically, they provide that schools must have six INSET days from 2026-27 onwards, maintaining the number of days that have been available since 2019-20. So, this leaves 189 days where teachers are required to teach pupils, compared to 190 days prior to 2019-20, and these are subject to the annulment procedure. So, Senedd lawyers have identified two technical and two merits reporting points and a Welsh Government response to the draft reporting points has been requested on the committee's behalf. So, Kate, would you be able to run through the reporting points? Thank you.</p>
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260706-2
2. Offerynnau sy'n cynnwys materion i gyflwyno adroddiad arnynt i'r Senedd o dan Reol Sefydlog 21.2 neu 21.3
2. Instruments that raise issues to be reported under Standing Order 21.2 or 21.3
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Kate Rabaiotti
Rabaiotti, Kate
<p>Thank you. The two technical reporting points are each reported under Standing Order 21.2(v), because they raise matters that require further explanation from the Welsh Government. The first point asks the Welsh Government to explain some apparently superfluous wording in one of the provisions. There's a lack of clarity as to the purpose and meaning of these words, so we think it would be helpful if the Welsh Government could provide an explanation.</p>
<p>The second point notes that the drafting of one provision does not appear to conform with the Welsh Government's drafting guidance, and while this drafting guidance is obviously not binding and there may be good reason to depart from standard practice on occasion, in this case, it appears to have created an inconsistency with another provision of the regulations and we think this could cause confusion to the reader, and so we've asked Welsh Government to explain the inconsistency.</p>
<p>The two merits reporting points are each reported under Standing Order 21.3(ii) in that they raise matters likely to be of interest to the Senedd. These are just points to note, so we've not asked Welsh Government to respond. The first point is noting that the explanatory memorandum contains details of consultation and engagement carried out in relation to the changes made by these regulations and, in particular, the ways in which children and young people were consulted.</p>
<p>The second point notes that the regulatory impact assessment considers the impact on children and families of the additional INSET day being made permanent, and it also sets out mitigation measures around this, ensuring that schools will provide as much notice as possible to allow carers to make necessary arrangements.</p>
<p>We'll come back to you with advice on Welsh Government's response once we receive it.</p>
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2. Offerynnau sy'n cynnwys materion i gyflwyno adroddiad arnynt i'r Senedd o dan Reol Sefydlog 21.2 neu 21.3
2. Instruments that raise issues to be reported under Standing Order 21.2 or 21.3
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Sarah Cooper-Lesadd AS
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12167
https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12167
Cooper-Lesadd, Sarah
<p>Great. Thank you Kate, that's brilliant. Does anyone have any comments or observations? Anyone on screen? Great.</p>
<p>In that case we can move on to item 2.2, which is the Representation of the People (Electoral Registration without Applications) (Electoral Reform) (Wales) Regulations 2026. You would have received a draft report, and a written statement by the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning. These regulations, effectively, provide for local authorities in Wales to conduct automatic voter registration in relation to the local government electoral register in Wales, ahead of the 2027 government elections. The provisions in the regulations are similar to those used during recent automatic registration pilots.</p>
<p>So, there has been an update on this. Since the draft report was circulated, Senedd lawyers have identified a nuance with scrutiny procedure that is permitted in the parent Act. As such, we suggest that committee doesn't formally consider the regulations and draft report this afternoon, and a revised draft report will come in next week's meeting. Is everyone content with that? Great.</p>
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2. Offerynnau sy'n cynnwys materion i gyflwyno adroddiad arnynt i'r Senedd o dan Reol Sefydlog 21.2 neu 21.3
2. Instruments that raise issues to be reported under Standing Order 21.2 or 21.3
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Sarah Cooper-Lesadd AS
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12167
https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12167
Cooper-Lesadd, Sarah
<p>In that case, we will move on to item 3, which is the correspondence from the Cabinet Minister for Rural Resilience and Sustainability in regards to biodiversity targets. So, in that, you would have received the letter from the Cabinet Minister for Rural Resilience and Sustainability. So, this letter is routine and doesn't pose any particular sensitivities or significant issues. This letter is a response to a recommendation made by the sixth Senedd's Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee in its report on the Bill. The recommendation, as you can see in the papers, called for a flow diagram to explain how the Welsh Government envisages section 3 of the Bill being applied by Welsh Ministers in the real world context. The Cabinet Minister has provided this flow diagram, which you received, stating it's intended to help relevant authorities to prepare for the implementation of the Act and discharge their duties. And then a public consultation on the environmental principles and integration of the environmental protection statement is due to be launched shortly. So, does anyone have any comments on this?</p>
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Adrian Mason AS
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12181
https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12181
Mason, Adrian
<p>Yes. Chair, I notice that the flow diagram actually is cut off on my version. The bottom of the third page.</p>
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Sarah Cooper-Lesadd AS
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12167
https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12167
Cooper-Lesadd, Sarah
<p>It may have been on the back.</p>
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Huw Thomas AS
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Thomas, Huw
<p>It is down the bottom.</p>
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Peter Fox AS
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=4787
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Fox, Peter
<p>Yes, it is on the iPad.</p>
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Sarah Cooper-Lesadd AS
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12167
https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12167
Cooper-Lesadd, Sarah
<p>So, we will look into it and we will recirculate that, so that you have that. </p>
<p>So, if everyone's content, then we can move on to the next written statement, by the Counsel General Designate. This is the notification of UK statutory instruments laid in Parliament during the pre-election period. That includes the written statement by the Counsel General Designate. In the written statement, this states that the previous Welsh Government gave consent, during the pre-election period, to three statutory instruments in areas devolved to Wales, including the Windsor Framework (Retail Movement Scheme: Plant Health) (Amendment) Regulations 2026, the Chemicals (Health and Safety) (Amendment, Consequential and Transitional Provisions) Regulations 2026, and the Erasmus+ Programme (Data Processing) Regulations 2026.</p>
<p>So, the inter-institutional relations agreement of the sixth Senedd provided that the Welsh Government would inform the Senedd of an intention to consent to the UK Government exercising designated legislative powers in a devolved Welsh area. This written statement notes that the agreement ceased to have an effect at dissolution. Any resurrection of the agreement now falls within the remit of the Constitution, Justice and External Affairs Committee now that this has been separated. So, do Members have any comments on this?</p>
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Adrian Mason AS
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12181
https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12181
Mason, Adrian
<p>Yes. Chair, my interpretation would be that there's a potential Sewel convention issue, that the sixth Senedd provided a devolved legislative consent prior to its dissolution, and I suspect that—. My view would be that the seventh Senedd should provide consent on the issues prior to their implementation.</p>
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Sarah Cooper-Lesadd AS
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12167
https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12167
Cooper-Lesadd, Sarah
<p>Thank you. Do we have a view from our lawyers on that? Yes—sorry, Kate.</p>
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Kate Rabaiotti
Rabaiotti, Kate
<p>So, in terms of the individual regulations that are mentioned in this written statement, it's the UK Ministers who have sought the consent of the Welsh Ministers to make the regulations in accordance with either the enabling Act—. So, some of them are required by the legislation to seek consent from the Welsh Ministers, and then some of them are under commitments made during the passage of the Bills that became the Act. So, they will have requested consent on that basis from the Welsh Ministers, not from the Senedd, but obviously there's a separate question about the Senedd's view overall on this sort of power.</p>
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Adrian Mason AS
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12181
https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12181
Mason, Adrian
<p>I concur entirely. I think it is a matter that needs to be looked at.</p>
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Sarah Sargent
Sargent, Sarah
<p>Just to confirm, the Senedd would not have had a consenting role with the exercise of the delegated power. The exercise of these delegated powers, the consenting role sits with the Welsh Ministers. So, whilst the Senedd might have wanted to be informed, there would be no formal decision or formal role for the Senedd. But we could, if the Chair is content, write to the Welsh Government to ask what processes it went through before consenting. But, obviously, it was the previous Government, rather than the current Government.</p>
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Sarah Cooper-Lesadd AS
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12167
https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12167
Cooper-Lesadd, Sarah
<p>Yes, that sounds sensible, if everyone's content with that route.</p>
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Huw Thomas AS
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12156
https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12156
Thomas, Huw
<p>Can I just check my understanding? Are you saying there wasn't a role for the Senedd because the decisions had been delegated because the Senedd had been dissolved?</p>
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Sarah Sargent
Sargent, Sarah
<p>No, no. I'd probably caveat what I'm about to say with 'we need to go away and double check the details of this.' But my understanding is that when the Acts were passed that would have framed these delegated powers for the UK Ministers, as Kate has said, either the powers in the Act require Welsh Ministers' consent, or, via inter-governmental agreement, the UK Ministers would be consulting the Welsh Ministers for consent. Because they are the exercise of a delegated power, the Senedd, in most of these cases, would not be required to give consent, because at this point the exercise of the power has been delegated to the Executive. But we can double check all of these for you and come back. That's no problem.</p>
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Sarah Cooper-Lesadd AS
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12167
https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12167
Cooper-Lesadd, Sarah
<p>Yes, I think it's worth coming back to this as soon as we can and writing out, as you suggested, and getting more clarity, because then we know exactly where we stand on this. So, that would be really, really good.</p>
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Huw Thomas AS
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12156
https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12156
Thomas, Huw
<p>But, just for clarity, the last Government gave consent.</p>
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Sarah Sargent
Sargent, Sarah
<p>Yes.</p>
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Huw Thomas AS
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12156
https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12156
Thomas, Huw
<p>So, it's away—it's enacted.</p>
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Sarah Sargent
Sargent, Sarah
<p>These regulations will be law, if not in force. We'd need to double check the coming into force dates, but yes.</p>
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Sarah Cooper-Lesadd AS
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12167
https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12167
Cooper-Lesadd, Sarah
<p>Great. That's brilliant. Does anyone else have any other comments? Yes.</p>
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Peredur Owen Griffiths AS
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=8579
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Griffiths, Peredur Owen
<p>I might have misheard. Is it this committee that would deal with this, or is it the Constitution, Justice and External Affairs Committee that would deal with it? So, is it within the remit of this committee? Therefore, are we trampling on a different committee's feet?</p>
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Sarah Sargent
Sargent, Sarah
<p>So, because of the separation of the responsibilities of what was the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee, the responsibility for the inter-institutional relations agreement now sits with that committee, the new Constitution, External Affairs and Justice Committee. And whether or not the agreement is resurrected is now a matter for them to pursue. And then they will monitor—. If the agreement is set up as it was, they will monitor the Welsh Ministers giving their consent to UK statutory instruments.</p>
<p>If this committee is interested in having—. If the agreement—. Well, first of all, would you like—? You could make a view on whether or not the agreement should be resurrected. And if it is resurrected, you could ask that any notification to do with the consenting of SIs is drawn to the attention of this committee also.</p>
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Sarah Cooper-Lesadd AS
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12167
https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12167
Cooper-Lesadd, Sarah
<p>Do you think that there is a risk that, if that happens, that that puts a lot of additional work on the committee?</p>
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Sarah Sargent
Sargent, Sarah
<p>Potentially. It's something we can revisit when you turn to your forward work planning, when you're looking at things that you could investigate as a committee yourself.</p>
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Sarah Cooper-Lesadd AS
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12167
https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12167
Cooper-Lesadd, Sarah
<p>Okay, I think that would be a good route forward if everyone's content.</p>
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Sarah Sargent
Sargent, Sarah
<p>Okay. </p>
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Sarah Cooper-Lesadd AS
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12167
https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12167
Cooper-Lesadd, Sarah
<p>So, is everyone content for us to move on to the next item, which is—? This is item 3.3, which is correspondence from the Cabinet Minister for Rural Resilience and Sustainability. This is in regards to the draft Disused Mine and Quarry Tips (Appeals and Reimbursement of Expenses) (Wales) Regulations. You would have received a letter from the Cabinet Minister for Rural Resilience and Sustainability. Just to flag that this letter is routine and doesn't pose any particular sensitivities or significant issues. This letter notifies the committee that the Welsh Government has published a consultation on a draft of these regulations and accompanying guidance, as required by the parent Act. The draft regulations and guidance set out the procedure for the determination of applications made to the Welsh Ministers under sections 38 and 43 of the Act. Do Members have any questions or comments?</p>
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Adrian Mason AS
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12181
https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12181
Mason, Adrian
<p>Yes. Sorry, it's me again, but I was just looking at the wording, actually: 'any expenditure'. It's quite wide, isn't it? Should it just say either 'expenditure' or 'reasonable expenditure'? </p>
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Sarah Cooper-Lesadd AS
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12167
https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12167
Cooper-Lesadd, Sarah
<p>What would be our legal view on this? </p>
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Kate Rabaiotti
Rabaiotti, Kate
<p>Is that in terms of the draft regulations?</p>
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Adrian Mason AS
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12181
https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12181
Mason, Adrian
<p>Yes, it just says 'any expenditure' without any reference to 'reasonable', the word that I think would be quite important.</p>
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Sarah Sargent
Sargent, Sarah
<p>Sorry, Chair, if I may, if that's wording in the draft regulations themselves, obviously, the draft regulations are now subject to consultation, so they could be changed. When the regulations are eventually laid before the Senedd, there will be a role for the committee in scrutinising them. If the Member’s got any particular concerns about the wording of the specific draft regulations, we could look at it again, but, like I said, at the moment they are out for consultation, so any concerns could be fed into the consultation itself.</p>
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Adrian Mason AS
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12181
https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12181
Mason, Adrian
<p>Understood. </p>
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Sarah Cooper-Lesadd AS
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12167
https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12167
Cooper-Lesadd, Sarah
<p>Great. Does anyone else have any other comments? Fantastic. </p>
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4. Cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.42 i benderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y cyfarfod
4. Motion under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting
I
<p>Cynnig:</p>
<p>bod y pwyllgor yn penderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y cyfarfod yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 17.42(vi) a (ix).</p>
<p>Motion:</p>
<p>that the committee resolves to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting in accordance with Standing Order 17.42(vi) and (ix).</p>
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4. Cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.42 i benderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y cyfarfod
4. Motion under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting
I
<p>Cynigiwyd y cynnig.</p>
<p>Motion moved.</p>
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4. Cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.42 i benderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y cyfarfod
4. Motion under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting
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Sarah Cooper-Lesadd AS
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12167
https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12167
Cooper-Lesadd, Sarah
<p>So, we are now going to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting. So, this is a motion under Standing Order 17.42. This enables the committee to meet in private to discuss the content and conclusions of recommendations of a report it proposes to publish, or is preparing itself to take evidence from any person. So, we can now meet in private to discuss the matter related to internal business of the committee and forward work planning.</p>
<p>So, in accordance with Standing Order 17.42(vi) and (ix), I invite the committee to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting. Do Members agree?</p>
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4. Cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.42 i benderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y cyfarfod
4. Motion under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting
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Huw Thomas AS
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12156
https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12156
Thomas, Huw
<p>Yes.</p>
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4. Cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.42 i benderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y cyfarfod
4. Motion under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting
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Adrian Mason AS
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12181
https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12181
Mason, Adrian
<p>Yes.</p>
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4. Cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.42 i benderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y cyfarfod
4. Motion under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting
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Sarah Cooper-Lesadd AS
https://business.senedd.wales/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12167
https://busnes.senedd.cymru/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=12167
Cooper-Lesadd, Sarah
<p>Fantastic. So, we're just going to have a quick pause.</p>
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4. Cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.42 i benderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y cyfarfod
4. Motion under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting
I
<p>Derbyniwyd y cynnig.</p>
<p>Daeth rhan gyhoeddus y cyfarfod i ben am 13:48.</p>
<p>Motion agreed.</p>
<p>The public part of the meeting ended at 13:48.</p>