Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru

A very warm welcome, Jason, and thank you very much for being here.

Jason.

Diolch, Weinidog. Thank you, Minister. Thank you, Chair. I think it picks up on a lot of points that the Deputy Minister mentioned in his opening statement about the engagement that we've had. We have been really fortunate that that engagement has been strong, and we've welcomed the contribution from our partners throughout the crisis.

What we've done in what I call the kind of current phase where we are planning for the future and potential easing of restrictions, we brought everybody together who represents the sectors that the Deputy Minister covers, the week before last, on a big video-conference to share with them our thinking about what could potentially be eased and what recovery or renewal might look like. That was a really important meeting, and it was the first time ever, I think, we got everybody together, so, the chief exec level for these stakeholders, on one call, and it was really valuable.

What we did on the back of that was, we commissioned them all to provide us a written update on where they believed they could potentially ease restrictions set against the tests that the First Minister set out—the seven tests. So, we've had written contributions from all those stakeholders; we're working through all of those at the moment, and we have regular detailed dialogue with them on a constant basis. I'm really proud of that engagement that we've had in these—. Well, since the crisis unfolded, actually, the engagement has been really strong, so I'm confident that, as we move forward, we'll do it in partnership with these stakeholders.

Thank you very much. I'd like to bring John Griffiths in here.

Diolch yn fawr, Gadeirydd. I just wanted to come in on that possible further easing of restrictions. I've received emails from people who are members of golf clubs, pointing out that, in Ireland now, golf courses are open again, and I think in England, they will be from—I think, is it Wednesday—and they're pointing out that they believe that they've got measures to put in place that will deal with the health issues and ensure proper social distancing and safety. So, I wonder whether there's anything you can say at this stage about a particular case for golf courses reopening.

Jason.

No decision has been announced on this yet, as far as I'm aware. Jason, I'm not sure how much we're able to say, so I'll let you respond, if you will.

Thank you, Minister. I'll declare an interest, actually—as a member of the Vale golf club, I am a golfer myself, so I think it's best that I declare that before I say the next bit.

We have clarified the situation because we are aware, obviously, of the easing of restrictions in England and the Irish situation, as you've mentioned there. The legal clarification is that golf courses are not included on the list of businesses or establishments that must remain closed; they've never been on that list. It's been other measures that are in force that have restricted the ability for clubs to open, particularly travel measures, et cetera. We've clarified this on the Welsh Government website, so to that point about whether they have to be closed, no, legally, they don't have to be closed. We have clarified that we do want to encourage people to exercise, but exercise locally. So, we are expecting a statement from Wales Golf imminently—it could actually come through as we speak—on the back of our clarification, because they may be minded to suggest to clubs that they can open, so long as they can ensure that local members can play. So, that clarification's going to be coming out at some point today.

Thank you. Diolch yn fawr.

Thank you.

And I'll bring you in then, Jason.

—if I can ask Jason a bit more about the situation, I was just going into the Wales Golf website, and there's a large headline on it that says, and I quote:

'Welsh Government Guidelines Mean Clubs, Courses And Facilities Must Remain Closed'.

So, just to explore, that's not actually right, is it? They're closed, but they're not closed because of guidance necessarily, are they? But that's as it were, I'm just thinking about the future—very helpful, because I'm an honorary member of Southerndown Golf Club, and I've had people say to me, 'Well, we can socially distance on the course. We can play. The club will remain closed—.' I've made the point that the difficulty for them is in a club like that, you have to drive to it, really. What does that mean? Are they able to drive—those you define as local members? So, it would be very helpful to have that information, perhaps not just from Wales Golf, but also from the Government as well, because, as I say, looking at the website, it hasn't been updated yet. All right, it might be a bit early yet, but it does certainly give the impression that by law, everything has to be shut.

Jason, do you want to respond to that, and then I'll bring you back in, because I think you wanted to add to the point the Deputy Minister was making about co-operation at a UK level?

I did. Diolch, Chair. So, on that Wales Golf point, yes, you're absolutely correct, that statement does need to be updated, because our guidance hasn't stated that golf courses must be closed. So, we are expecting this update to come through.

On the Welsh Government main website last night, we published our latest question-and-answer briefing, which comes to many of the points that you mentioned there about travel, accessing golf courses and what does that mean. Because, understandably, golf clubs will want to know the answer to that question—does it mean that people can just walk there? Well, it does go into a description because it ultimately depends on the circumstance of the individual, and it would mean different things to different people. So we do provide an answer on that formally on the website.

To the earlier point, if I could come in quickly on that, in terms of engagement with the UK, engagement at the officials level has been good; we have regular dialogue with my DCMS counterparts. There's been very good interaction at sector level, for example, on the historic environment side, our deputy director, effectively chief exec of Cadw, has regular meetings with his counterpart in all the devolved nations, and that's a theme that's been mirrored in the other sectors. So, there is good engagement at UK level, obviously respecting the fact that all these areas are wholly devolved to Wales, and it's up to us to make our own decisions on what we do.

Thank you, that's very helpful. If I can bring Carwyn Jones in now.

Jason, do you want to add anything to what I've been outlining?

Thank you. Just on that point on the future, really, I think it's important to note that there's massive uncertainty out there in the arts sector. If you, for example, were putting on a tour production, the lead-in times for that are absolutely significant and if you don't know when you could potentially resume, that's causing massive uncertainty for you. 

There's a heavy reliance on the job retention scheme within the artistic sector, and there are calls and pleas to UK Government to extend that for a significant period of time, and certainly not for it to end at the end of June. So, there's massive uncertainty out in the sector.

But one thing I'd end on, on a slightly more positive note, is that the thing that we've found with our engagement with the arts and with the creative industries is that there is still quite a bit of positivity. So, whilst there's uncertainty, we've found that it is a very resilient sector and we've been particularly struck by the measured responses from the Arts Council of Wales throughout all of this, and they've been looking at this in a very measured way and trying to find pragmatic ways in which to help people come out of this crisis. So, yes there's uncertainty, yes there are massive pressures, but the people within the sector are very resilient. 

Can I call Mick Antoniw now? And, just to remind Members, I'm very well aware that a number of you have got meetings that you've got to go to at 11:00, and I know the Minister's got to leave at 11:00. So, if we can, as far as we can, keep our questioning and responses sharp and pithy. 

I will certainly be succinct. Minister, you've already referred generally to the grass-roots music relief fund, the emergency TV development fund. These are funds that have come out of the £1 million emergency response from the Creative Wales funding, I understand. I'm just wondering if you could update us on both of these in respect of, perhaps, how many grants there have been, how much of the funding has actually been distributed, I suppose, really, to enable to assess the impact that it has had so far on those parts of the industry. 

I'll tell you what I know and I'll ask Jason to follow me, if he will. There was a maximum of £335,000 available for the emergency TV fund, with up to £25,000 available for each individual project. And to date, no funding—or to date of last week—no funding allocations had been made, but the funding remains open for applications until the 18 May. Thirty eight application forms have been issued and we hope, obviously, that there will be a strong response now that we've announced the closing date. Would you like to add anything to that, Jason? You've probably got more recent information than I have. 

Thank you, Minister. On that fund, that's accurate as where we are today. Just on the grass-roots music fund, that fund has been fully subscribed, so we have allocated somewhere in the region of £400,000, which was up to £25,000 per business. So, that fund has now closed and we've allocated around £400,000 that's out there. That's been very warmly welcomed and received by the music sector in Wales. 

Thank you for that, Minister. If I can—. Sorry, I don't know if I'm jumping in too quickly, but I have to move on to other questions as quickly as possible because I'm aware of the time. On the issue of some 40,000 freelancers, and so on, working within the creative industry sector, of course, there are a number of schemes that are there—one to protect those that are actually in employment. But a number of problems have been identified in terms of freelancers within the industry, those who have had to set up as limited companies, those who may do a mixture of PAYE plus self-employed work. And I'm wondering what assessment Welsh Government has done, really, of the extent to which there are sections of those who work in the industry who have not been able to claim support from the Government, and what representations or discussions there may have been with the UK Government about any of the anomalies that exist and the problems that have arisen in this.

Well, whenever we see anomalies, especially in the situation that you've described, in terms of company structure, the position of sole traders and the inability of people to pay themselves as directors of companies legally, in issues like this we have, obviously, taken them up directly with the UK Government. We haven't had as much response as we would have hoped. But it seems to me that we have to ensure that it is possible to have a system that meets a taxation system and a benefits system and a grants system. And loans systems are not so useful because, clearly, if people—just like the bed-and-breakfast sector in tourism—are taking loans, then there's the whole difficulty about repayment, because the level of receipts aren't sufficient to cover the cost of loans. Jason, would you like to take that further as well?

Jason.

Thank you, Chair, and thank you, Mick. So, just quickly to add on this, as well as the significant UK Government schemes that were announced at the start of the crisis, and the significant Welsh Government package that we delivered through the economic resilience fund, we did identify some gaps that existed in that funding provision—there is a list that we've worked on, working closely with that sector. So, all that information and that insight is feeding into the discussions that are going on currently with regard to the next wave of support that we would issue through the economic resilience fund. We are acutely aware of the pressure on freelancers, so I can assure you that that is actively in the discussions.

Thank you. Mick.

I've got two important areas I want to go on to. One is in respect of the impact on journalism and the media—you've partly commented on it. Really, just what is your assessment of the scale of the impact on journalism—journalism, obviously, is a fundamental part of our democratic structure and democratic system—and in particular the impact on community news organisations? I have in mind a variety of different community sources of information—my interest is community radio, in particular—and some of these seem to have come into their own during the crisis, because they're reporting very, very locally and they're giving access to a lot of local information that, in many ways, wouldn't otherwise exist. So, I'm wondering what your views are, what assessments there are, and what your thoughts are on the issues that are affecting those particular areas.

Thank you for that. I have oversight of broadcasting generally, but these specific funds are in fact administered by my colleague the Minister for Economy, Transport and North Wales. The independent community journalism fund is distributed by the Welsh Government for the purposes of supporting exactly the kinds of publications and the media content, in terms of genuinely local journalism, which you've described. I'm not sure exactly how much has been spent on these funds. Jason, perhaps you can help me on some detail here, or is it not directly within our departmental responsibility?

Jason.

Thank you, Chair. It's not—that's right, Minister. But we would, of course, provide a note for the committee if that would be helpful after.

Yes.

That will do. My final question—again, very wary of time—but a very, very important one. The reporting, or the misreporting, of devolved issues, I think, is something that is really causing massive concern, because not only has it been going on consistently, but, obviously, there are serious concerns about some of the statements that are coming out, for example, from Westminster that add to that particular confusion. I'm wondering if you'll be giving consideration to an assessment of the implications of that confusion that exists within the media, or perhaps the misappropriation of time and influence on devolved matters vis-a-vis UK matters. It's a complex area, but it is one that is really coming to a head now. So, I'm wondering what your thoughts are on that, whether you've made any particular representations or had discussions with any bodies or with UK Government around these particular issues. 

Minister.

Well, as part of my responsibilities within Welsh Government, I sit on the ministerial and officials group, which meets almost daily these days, and we have had discussions, of course, about ensuring that the messaging on behalf of Wales, especially our policy in relation to public health and travelling and driving and coming in to Wales from outside Wales—. All these very difficult issues are issues that we constantly discuss, and that includes having discussions with the media outlets. I have to say that in the ITV system we now have a very strong representation of Welsh interests, both at the news level and at the features level in the middle of this crisis, and, indeed, the ITV system has a strong regional strength in England and in the nationalities, the nations, of the rest of the UK.

But there's always the issue that people in Wales often get their information from media based outside Wales, where there has been confusion. But I do think that the recent appearances of the First Minister of Wales on the UK media have helped to clear the situation, so that we need—. But we can't give up on this, because we have to make it clear that we are working in a United Kingdom, which is devolved into regions and nationalities, and during this crisis the stresses and strains of the failure to understand the nature of devolution have exhibited themselves. I am being as balanced as I can be in my reply, but I would—  

Do you think, Minister, that perhaps the problem is that at, perhaps, a UK Government level there's a confusion there as to when they're speaking as a UK Government as opposed to when they're speaking as an English Government?  

Well, I am a parliamentarian of the United Kingdom, but I wouldn't pretend to speak on behalf of the United Kingdom, because I am a Welsh Minister. So, my job is representing Wales and representing the people of Wales.

These are not difficult things. The trouble is that the people who don't understand these things are people who have never really thought that the United Kingdom is not a unitary state, that it has always been a diverse state, it has consisted of different polities, in its nature. And I'm looking at David Melding as I say these things, because we have discussed these matters over many years, and I think we have to help people to understand, especially in the English media, that Wales is a nationality within the United Kingdom and therefore has the ability now to make distinctive decisions, and they have to learn to live with it, I think. 

Very diplomatically put, Minister. I'm very conscious of time, and we do have two very important areas that we want to cover in the next short minutes that we have left. If I can bring David Melding in on heritage, museums, libraries and archives. 

Diolch yn fawr, Cadeirydd. It would be very tempting to continue that discussion about—  

I'm sure we will come back to that. 

—what a union state and a unitary state and a federal state is. I'm going to combine some of my questions so that I'll get through them a bit more quickly. If you look at the £350,000 resilience fund for the museum and heritage sector, for their attractions, because obviously a lot of income is likely to be lost as these attractions have not been open, what take-up have you had on that? And I understand the National Lottery Heritage Fund has established an emergency fund of £50 million. I assume that's UK, but still that will be a substantial amount, presumably, to be spent in Wales. Is that yet open? Are you encouraging attractions and museums and galleries, whatever, to access that fund? A progress report on those key funding streams would be very, very useful.

Yes, I had, quite recently, an audio-visual conference with the heritage lottery, and I'll ask Jason if he's got more recent figures than perhaps I've got in front of me here now on the take-up of this fund. Jason, thank you.

Jason.

Thanks, Minister. Thank you, Chair. So, I understand that the £350,000 that we allocated to the federation of museums and galleries has been delivered, but we can provide a note on that after the committee, because I want to, obviously, make sure I give you the latest figures. It's been a very fast-moving development.

Thank you. David, do you wish to come back?

Do you have anything on the heritage lottery? That doesn't sound as if it's up and running yet, and, presumably, for future resilience, as the £350,000 has gone very quickly—which is great; that's what we wanted, for it to be allocated. But there's going to be ongoing demand for assistance, isn't there, and the Government's pockets are not endlessly deep, so some idea of how the lottery fund might be used in Wales would be quite helpful. Come back with a note if you don't have anything immediately now, but I would like to be reassured that that's—you know, we're going to get our fair share of that in Wales.

Are you able to assist us today? Jason, do you want to come in on this?

Yes, really quickly. Thank you, Chair. So, two things on that: (1), the fund is open in Wales. It's open now. And, secondly, we have been very actively signposting all our stakeholders towards that fund. So, we're confident that there will be a lot of uptake on it. But, obviously, we can keep you updated as to progress as this develops.

Thank you. And then, Minister, last week, the First Minister did talk about the possibility, fairly soon, that some libraries would be able to re-open, and I just wonder, for the rest of the heritage sector—if we're looking at galleries and museums in particular—what sort of discussions are you in about what would be appropriate easing of the current restrictions and when that may happen so the sector can operate closer to a non-emergency situation?

Minister.

We are operating at a number of levels here. We provided £325,000 in funding for the COVID resilience grant scheme for Welsh museums and heritage attractions. This is being administered by the Federation of Museums and Art Galleries of Wales, and we've provided £250,000 towards digital library resource, which will enable public libraries to provide additional digital resources to the public and give people resources to read and engage while self-isolating.

Now, I would dearly love to see us in a position, which obviously has to be discussed with local government—. I think this was mentioned during the First Minister's statement on 8 May, about the potential to adjust the regulations. I've been happily involved in, I think, the re-opening of about 10 or a dozen public libraries, and I now realise that these are not at all just libraries—they are social centres of all kinds where people meet and where people share, and in particular, these days, where children love to play, and I think a phased approach to re-opening libraries across Wales would be our preferred approach, with clear guidance to ensure the safety of library staff and members of the public. This is something that has to be discussed constantly with the Society of Chief Librarians in Wales, and I hope that there will be a way of ensuring that these resources are available, either digitally, as I've described, or also, when the public health crisis is coming near its resolution, it'll be possible for us to restore the important social function of our libraries. 

Thank you. I'll bring you in briefly, Jason. We are running a bit close to time, but—.

Thanks, Chair. So, to the museum and galleries point as well, as we said right at the start of the committee, we are very much in preparation for the future, working with those stakeholders. So, with the national museum, the national library, the various stakeholders, they are providing that intelligence to us as to what further restrictions might be lifted at the next three-week review point. So, just to assure you that these conversations are ongoing and are very detailed. 

David.

So, is it feasible that the national museum will be reopening at some time in the summer? It may just be for schoolchildren or something. It's a big site. If you control the numbers going in, one would assume that social distancing is possible. So, is that the type of targeted approach—?

Yes. I mean, one could argue that St Fagans is merely a fine and wonderful garden centre and that, therefore, there is a logic there, really, that that is where we would begin. But this is a matter for the museum authorities, obviously, and in continuing discussion with the senior medical officer for Wales. And, when the situation is appropriate, I hope that that can happen. 

Thank you. David.

Yes. Perhaps I'll just—. I would have asked about where Cadw's commercial operation is at the moment, because it's improved very considerably in the last five years, and, obviously, the national museum you're trying to encourage down that road as well, but I assume that, when you're looking at their performance and their potential for development in terms of the commercial sector, you're going to have to put this on a slightly longer timescale now. You might want to send us a note, rather than give us a detailed answer now. But one thing that did occur to me is that we know the national museum has a huge capital backlog on some really key maintenance. They've closed one of the major galleries in the national museum, where ceramics were. Do you think, during the lockdown, there will be an opportunity to conduct maintenance and also to keep an important sector going a bit as well, in terms of specialist builders that conduct that sort of renovation?

We have invested, alongside the national museum, for the very purpose of ensuring that the major gallery in Cardiff—and, especially, I think, there were roofing and building issues there—that those are being responded to. Do you want to add more detail to that, Jason, if we've got time?

Can we perhaps ask for a brief note on that, because I'm conscious of time and we do want to—? I do want to bring John Griffiths in, because we've got some questions we'd like to ask about sport. The public will, of course, be aware that this committee doesn't usually take responsibilities for sport, but, given the pressures on the other committees, we've agreed that we will do this and, of course, sport is a very important part of our community life but also of our commercial life. So, John, if you'd like to start your questions. 

Diolch yn fawr, Cadeirydd. Yes, I wonder if you could set out briefly, as it must be, Welsh Government's assessment of the particular vulnerabilities in sport at the current stage of the crisis, but also looking forward, and how Welsh Government support is being targeted to deal with those vulnerabilities. 

Well, obviously we work very closely—thank you, John—with Sport Wales. I think I've already mentioned, as part of the £18 million package announced in early April, that included £400,000 for the emergency relief fund, which was led by Sport Wales, and the £8 million sport resilience fund, which, again, is led by Sport Wales, and they have identified the priorities for support for sports clubs and partner networks to ensure that the 40 or so governing bodies that we have in Wales for sport are aware of the potential for funding and for where they qualify, of course, not just for the economic resilience fund but also for the business rate relief scheme.

We are concerned that the return to sporting activity is being severely curtailed, and we look forward to a similar approach in terms of digital investment as we have with the arts and other parts of my portfolio, so that people are aware of the importance of exercise, taking advantage of the opportunity to exercise as individuals, not in groups, at the moment, but as soon as it's possible for us to look forward to a return to major sporting activities, then I'm certain that Sport Wales and ourselves in the Government will be able to ensure that the renewal that happens within the physical life of the nation means that our commitment to ensure that a greater priority for the physical health of the nation is being pursued. Jason, have you got some more detail there?

Jason, we'll bring you in briefly, yes. Sorry, Jason—on you, Jason, please. Thank you.

Diolch, Chair. So, just to say, really, that the position with sport is broadly similar to those other sectors where the impact has clearly been devastating. Small clubs, large clubs are all closed and everybody's looking for support to help them through this. The engagement has been fantastic with Sport Wales and with the Welsh Sports Association, and we know that the funding that we've put in place to be administered by Sport Wales has been heavily bid into, and has been very warmly welcomed by the sector. So, it's a similar position as we've discussed in some of those other areas the Deputy Minister covers.

Yes, and we can supply you with more detail of how that money is being spent as soon as we have it available, or we can obtain it for you, or you can obtain it from Sport Wales. Obviously, we can obtain it for you.

That's really helpful. John.

Yes, as you say, Minister, sport is very important to physical and mental health—you know, playing sport and, indeed, watching sport, and restarting it is crucial. Obviously, there's a balance in terms of the COVID-19 crisis but also the wider physical and mental health issues. Some of the Welsh football clubs, of course, play in the English Football League, and I know they're very concerned about starting back to playing as quickly as possible. They're also concerned about some of the structural issues, because I think UK Government has two sports committees that are looking at restarting sport, and I think they're concerned about timing in Wales compared to timing in England and whether there is liaison and joint working between Welsh Government and UK Government to make sure that we're as aligned as we can be.

I know your great loyalty to Newport County, and I certainly have enjoyed watching them play with you and I hope to do so again. This is a very good example of how we need to work across the nations of the UK so that we understand the effects of the decisions being taken by each country in turn.

Anything further, John?

I don't know if Jason could add anything on that, or—?

Just in terms of the engagement levels, so, when it comes to elite sports, DCMS at the UK Government level, they've asked UK Sport to lead on preparing some protocols for a phased return for elite sport. So, they've produced a draft report, which effectively sets out four phases, with the end point being a return to full participation, the first phase being training. Just in terms of the engagement on that, though, there is good engagement with Sport Wales and UK Sport. We would like to see better engagement with DCMS before they issue these requests to UK Sport, so we can input at a higher level. So, that is one of those areas—engagement—where I think it could be improved.

Thank you. Anything further, John?

No. Given the time constraints, Chair, I think that's fine.

—and to you, Jason Thomas. This has been a really useful session for us.

Goodbye and thank you very much to Jason.

And the first is paper is 3.1, correspondence with the BBC. Carwyn Jones, I think you wanted to make a point on this. Can we unmute Carwyn, please? Thank you.

Thank you. I was concerned, Chair, by the response that we received from Ken MacQuarrie, who's the director of BBC Nations and Regions, in response to your letter regarding the concern we had about BBC Wales news not being available on tv in the morning. I was particularly concerned of the fact that on two occasions in the letter he referred to the national news of Wales as 'local news'. Now, bear in mind, you know, if you're listening to a county BBC station, that news would be important to you, of course, if you're living in that county. But the difference in Wales is that we are a nation and, of course, we have the ability to make policies and laws on COVID-19 that are different to England if that is what the Government and this Parliament decides. So, I'm greatly concerned that when people wake up in the morning, they are still listening to news that may not apply in the nation that they live in and, secondly, of course, it was a bit of a slip to suggest that it is local news on a par, perhaps, with the kind of local news one might expect in parts of Wales or, for that matter, parts of England. Perhaps you might want to consider, Chair, inviting him back and reminding Mr MacQuarrie that, in fact, we are talking here about the national news of Wales and disseminating news to the people of Wales at a time of crisis, and that they are not—that we cannot be confident that the news they're receiving in the morning from BBC network is actually accurate as far as Wales is concerned. 

Thank you. Do other Members have a comment? Mick.

I totally agree with Carwyn, and I think the reference there

'to pause our local service to television audiences',

et cetera, sums up the actual dilemma—it's the mindset, which just does not understand the concept of the media serving pan-nations.

Quite. Do any other Members wish to comment on this? Well, if—[Interruption.] David. 

I think, Chair, you could say the unanimous view of the committee was that there's—. Words are important, and particularly the whole point that Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are their own policy- and law-making areas, and they're not 'local' in that respect at all. 

Well, if Members are agreed, perhaps we can have a further discussion. We will meet a little bit later this afternoon for a private [correction: informal] session of the committee, and perhaps we can have a discussion about how exactly we want to respond, because I would certainly, personally, concur that referring to Welsh news as local news is never acceptable, but it's particularly unacceptable at a time of crisis when people desperately need accurate information. So, if you're content, Members, we'll note this paper and we'll decide exactly how to respond a little later on today.

With regard, then, to 3.2, correspondence from the Wales community radio network, are we content to note that and to use that as part of our evidence as we look at these issues, going forward, and similarly correspondence with Media Wales? Mick.

Just on the community radio one, because it is such an imminent thing, I don't think it's something that can wait an inquiry, but I think the particular point about the actual immediate state and support to community radio is a very valid one, and I think that might be something where we could ask what specifically, at this moment in time, is being done because of what I think is actually a crisis; I think some community radio is teetering. 

Well, if Members are content, perhaps we can again come back to that briefly in our private [correction: informal] meeting and decide the content of potentially some correspondence with Ministers on that basis? So, on that basis, are we happy to note 3.2? 

Yes.

And 3.3—in a sense, that's similar, so perhaps we can discuss that a little bit later on as well. And 3.4, the briefing from BBC Cymru Wales, are you content to note that?

With that, can I thank Members very much for your contributions today? I'm very conscious that you have other meetings to go to, so, if no-one wishes to raise anything further, I'll bring the meeting to a close with my usual thanks to all our staff, and particularly today the technology staff. This has gone incredibly smoothly, and I think we're all very grateful to them. I will meet Members later today to discuss some of the issues further in private [correction: informally]. Diolch yn fawr iawn i chi.