Pwyllgor Diwylliant, y Gymraeg a Chyfathrebu - Y Bumed Senedd

Culture, Welsh Language and Communications Committee - Fifth Senedd

13/02/2020

Aelodau'r Pwyllgor a oedd yn bresennol

Committee Members in Attendance

Bethan Sayed
Carwyn Jones
David Melding
Helen Mary Jones
John Griffiths
Mick Antoniw

Y rhai eraill a oedd yn bresennol

Others in Attendance

Yr Arglwydd / Lord Elis-Thomas Tyst
Witness
Gerwyn Evans Cymru Greadigol
Creative Wales
Joedi Langley Tyst
Witness

Swyddogion y Senedd a oedd yn bresennol

Senedd Officials in Attendance

Angharad Roche Dirprwy Glerc
Deputy Clerk
Martha Da Gama Howells Ail Glerc
Second Clerk
Robin Wilkinson Ymchwilydd
Researcher

Cofnodir y trafodion yn yr iaith y llefarwyd hwy ynddi yn y pwyllgor. Yn ogystal, cynhwysir trawsgrifiad o’r cyfieithu ar y pryd. Lle mae cyfranwyr wedi darparu cywiriadau i’w tystiolaeth, nodir y rheini yn y trawsgrifiad.

The proceedings are reported in the language in which they were spoken in the committee. In addition, a transcription of the simultaneous interpretation is included. Where contributors have supplied corrections to their evidence, these are noted in the transcript.

Dechreuodd y cyfarfod am 09:31. 

The meeting began at 09:31.

1. Cyflwyniad, ymddiheuriadau, dirprwyon a datgan buddiannau
1. Introductions, apologies, substitutions and declarations of interest

Croeso i Bwyllgor Diwylliant, y Gymraeg a Chyfathrebu'r bore yma, ac eitem 1 ar yr agenda yw cyflwyniad, ymddiheuriadau, dirprwyon a datgan buddiannau. Hoffwn i groesawu pawb i'r pwyllgor ac, os nad oes gan unrhyw un rhywbeth i'w ddatgan y bore yma, awn ni'n syth ymlaen at eitem 2 ar yr agenda.

Welcome to the Culture, Welsh Language and Communications Committee this morning, and item 1 on the agenda is introductions, apologies, substitutions and declarations of interest. I'd like to welcome everybody to the committee meeting and, if nobody has anything to declare, we'll go straight to item 2 on the agenda. 

2. Ymchwiliad i'r Diwydiant Cerddoriaeth yng Nghymru: Llywodraeth Cymru
2. Inquiry into Music Industry in Wales: Welsh Government

Eitem 2: ymchwiliad i gerddoriaeth fyw yng Nghymru, ac rydym ni'n croesawu atom ni'r bore yma Llywodraeth Cymru ac, wrth gwrs, rydym ni'n croesawu Dafydd Elis-Thomas, sef y Dirprwy Weinidog Diwylliant, Chwaraeon a Thwristiaeth; Gerwyn Evans, sef dirprwy gyfarwyddwr Cymru Greadigol; ac wedyn pennaeth datblygu sector Cymru Greadigol, Joedi Langley. Croeso i chi oll—am ddod atom y bore yma. Rydych chi wedi bod ger ein bron nifer fawr o weithiau nawr, Ddirprwy Weinidog, felly byddwn ni'n gofyn cwestiynau ar sail themâu gwahanol, os ydy hynny'n iawn gyda chi, ac wedyn, byddwn ni'n bwrw ymlaen yn hynny o beth. Felly, yn gyntaf, gen i, mae'r ymchwiliad yma wedi bod yn un ffrwythlon iawn, dwi'n credu, ac mae lot o bobl wedi ymwneud yn bositif gyda'r holl ymchwiliad gan fod yna gymaint yn digwydd yma yng Nghymru. Yn gyntaf oll, hoffwn i ofyn: ydych chi'n ymwybodol o faint o'r lleoliadau cerddoriaeth fyw sydd wedi cau yma yng Nghymru? 

Item 2: inquiry into live music in Wales, and we welcome this morning Welsh Government and, of course, we welcome Dafydd Elis-Thomas, Deputy Minister for Culture, Sport and Tourism; Gerwyn Evans, deputy director of Creative Wales; and then, head of sector development Creative Wales, Joedi Langley. Welcome to you all—for attending this morning. You have been before us a number of times, Deputy Minister, and we'll be asking questions on the basis of different themes, if that's okay with you. We'll go straight into those, so, first of all, from me, this inquiry has been a very fruitful one and I think many people have been engaging positively with all aspects of the inquiry as there is so much happening here in Wales. First of all, I'd like to ask you: are you aware of how many venues in Wales have closed down in recent years?

Mae hwnnw'n gwestiwn anodd i'w ateb, a buaswn i ddim yn hoffi rhoi ffigur pendant arno fo, oherwydd un o'r problemau ydy bod llawer iawn o'r lleoliadau perfformio yn newid eu swyddogaeth am mai dyna sut maen nhw'n dod i ben fel lleoliad perfformio; maen nhw'n llefydd bwyta neu maen nhw'n fariau neu beth bynnag arall ydyn nhw. Mae yna ddiffiniad o leoliad—beth bynnag ydy'r gair Cymraeg priodol—grassroots. Dwi'n cael trafferth gyda hwn, oherwydd dyw'r gair ddim yn gwneud synnwyr yn Gymraeg. Rydym ni'n sôn am leoliad ar y stryd neu leoliad— 

That's a difficult question to answer, and I wouldn't want to give it a definite figure, because one of the problems is that many of these performance venues do change their function and that's why they cease to be performance venues; they become restaurants or bars or whatever else they may be. There is a definition of a venue—I'm not sure what the appropriate Welsh word for 'grassroots' is, because the word simply doesn't make sense in Welsh, but we are talking here about a grassroots venue— 

Na, dyw hwnna ddim yr un peth. Mae lleoliad cymunedol yn rhywbeth arall. Ond mi wnaf feddwl am hwnna, pan mae gen i fwy o amser nag sydd gen i'r bore yma i ateb y cwestiwn. Felly, rydym ni wedi gofyn i gwmni Landsker Business Solutions i wneud astudiaeth drylwyr a mapio'r lleoliadau perfformio, ac yn gynwysiedig yn hynny, rydym ni wedi gofyn iddyn nhw drafod—. Dwi ddim wedi gweld yr adroddiad eto, achos mae'r digwyddiad—mae'r ymholiad hwn—yn digwydd y bore yma. Pan mae'r adroddiad wedi dod i law—. Mae o gyda ni fel Llywodraeth, ond dwi ddim eto wedi ei weld o nac wedi cael argymhellion arno fo. Ond mi fydd yna, dwi'n gobeithio, help i ni greu diffiniad addas ar gyfer lleoliadau lle mae miwsig yn cael ei berfformio'n fyw yng Nghymru. 

No, a community venue is something different altogether. But I will think about that when I have a little more time than I have this morning. So, we have asked Landsker Business Solutions to carry out a thorough mapping exercise in terms of performance venues and, included within that, we have asked them to discuss—. I haven't seen the report, as of yet, because this inquiry is taking place this morning. We've received the report as a Government, but I haven't yet had an opportunity to read it or make recommendations on it. But I do hope that there will be some assistance for us there to create an appropriate definition for venues where music is performed live in Wales. 

Diolch am hynny. Allwch chi ddweud wrthym ni pryd fyddwch chi'n cael mwy o wybodaeth ynglŷn â gwneud unrhyw fath o gasgliadau yn sgil y broses fapio yma? Rydych chi'n dweud bod y Llywodraeth wedi ei chael hi. Beth yw'r broses nawr? A yw'r diwydiant wedi bod yn hollol—rhan o'r broses yma? Beth maen nhw wedi bod yn dweud wrthych chi? A sut ydych chi'n mynd i ddefnyddio'r broses fapio yma i helpu'r diwydiant yma yng Nghymru? 

Thank you for that. Could you tell us when you will have more information regarding coming to any conclusions as a result of this mapping process? You say the Government has received it. What is the process now? Has the industry been completely a part of this process? What have they been telling you? And how are you going to use this mapping process to assist the industry here in Wales? 

The report is in with us now; it's been in with us for a few weeks. We did extend the timescale for the report to allow us to strengthen it and allow us to speak to more music venues. There was some criticism before Christmas from a few music venues that they didn't have a chance to report into Landsker. So, we've made sure that has been remedied and now we've got a much higher rate of response into Landsker. What we're planning to do is meet with the Music Venue Trust in the next week or so, and then there's a Music Venue Trust meeting in March, where we'll basically disseminate the information from the report to all the key music venues and the Music Venue Trust, and when they're happy with it—we want them to be happy with it first—we'll then disseminate it via the website et cetera, following ministerial approval on the recommendations within it. But we want to do it in conjunction with the Music Venue Trust and the venues, so we'll be meeting with them in March to discuss it.

09:35

Grêt. Dwi'n falch i glywed eich bod chi wedi rhoi estyniad, achos rydym ni wedi clywed yn y pwyllgor yma hefyd bod lot o bobl efallai heb weld yr e-bost neu heb ymwneud, felly rydym yn ddiolchgar am hynny. Ond, jest o ran sgôp y peth, ydy e'n mynd i edrych ar lefydd ymarfer hefyd? Er enghraifft, rydym wedi clywed bod yna broblem o ran cael mynediad at lefydd i ymarfer ar draws Cymru. Neu a ydy jest am y lleoliadau yn benodol o ran gigio?

Great. I'm pleased to hear that you have provided an extension, because we were hearing in this committee that many people perhaps hadn't seen the e-mail or hadn't engaged, so we are grateful for that. But, just in terms of the scope of it, is it going to look at rehearsal spaces as well? For example, we've heard that there is a problem with regard to accessing rehearsal spaces across Wales. Or is it just regarding the gig venues?

Dwi'n aros i weld yr adroddiad i ateb hwnna yn glir, ond dwi'n meddwl ei fod yn bwysig ein bod ni'n canolbwyntio ar leoliadau perfformio byw. Ac os oes yna leoliadau sydd hefyd yn cael eu defnyddio ar gyfer perfformio byw ac ymarfer—dwi'n deall bod y llinell yn gallu bod yn un denau weithiau—mi fyddwn ni'n bod yn hyblyg ynglŷn â hynny. Ond y cyngor rydym wedi ei gael gan y cwmnïau yn y sector, a dwi'n sicr mai dyma fydd Landsker Business Solutions, fel y cwmni sydd wedi paratoi'r astudiaeth—. Ac mae gen i dipyn o barch at y gwaith maen nhw wedi ei wneud ar gyfer Llywodraeth Cymru a'r sector cyhoeddus yn y gorffennol, felly dwi'n eithaf ffyddiog y bydd yr argymhellion bydd gyda nhw a'r cyfle cyflym fydd gyda fi i'w hystyried nhw yn golygu y gallwn ni fynd ymlaen efo gweithgaredd yn y maes yma, wel, cyn y Pasg, buaswn i'n gobeithio.

I'm waiting to see the report, and I'll need to see it before I can give a clear answer to that, but I think it's important that we focus on live performance venues. And if there are venues that are also used for rehearsal—I understand that those lines can become blurred—we would be flexible on that. But the advice that we've received from companies in the sector, and I'm sure that this is what Landsker Business Solutions, as the company that has been responsible for this study—. And I have great respect for the work that they have done for the Welsh Government and the wider public sector in the past, and I'm confident that the recommendations that they make and the brief opportunity that I will have to consider them will mean that we can make progress with activity in this area, before Easter, I would hope. 

Ac ydych chi'n bwriadu gwneud hyn yn rheolaidd? Neu ydy hyn yn one-off? Ydych chi'n bwriadu gwneud hyn yn aml?

Do you intend to do this on a regular basis? Or is this a one-off thing? Are you going to do it regularly?

Na, y bwriad ydy—. Mae hwn yn mynd i fod—. Ac mi ofynnaf i Gerwyn a Joedi i ddweud gair am hyn. Mi fydd hwn yn un o gyfrifoldebau canolog Cymru Greadigol, oherwydd y gwahaniaeth rhwng Cymru Greadigol a Chyngor Celfyddydau Cymru yw bod gan Cymru Greadigol bwyslais masnachol. Mae gan Cymru Greadigol hefyd bwyslais sydd yn ymwneud â busnesion yn y maes creadigol, tra bod cyngor y celfyddydau yn ymwneud, wrth gwrs, â pholisi celfyddyd a noddi artistiaid unigol a llenorion unigol ac yn y blaen. Dyna fuaswn i'n meddwl ydy'r prif wahaniaeth, a phan ges i'r cyfrifoldeb gan y Prif Weinidog emeritws, sydd yn aelod o'ch pwyllgor chi fan hyn, mi wnaed yn hollol glir i fi, os oeddwn i'n gyfrifol am weithgaredd creadigol a symud ymlaen i weithredu ar ymrwymiad maniffesto Llafur a gyda chefnogaeth y pleidiau eraill i sefydlu Cymru Greadigol, y byddem ni'n gwneud hynny gyda'r pwyslais yma ar beidio ceisio cymryd drosodd gwaith unrhyw gyrff cyhoeddus eraill hyd braich.

A'r penderfyniad pwysig i ni ei wneud, ac mi wnaed o yn y lle cyntaf gyda chorff arall tebyg, sef Cadw, oedd ein bod ni'n cadw Cadw o fewn y Llywodraeth, ond yn sicrhau bod yna gyllideb glir ddiffiniedig a bod yna berthynas yn cael ei sefydlu drwy gadeirydd a bwrdd gyda'r sector yn gyffredinol, a'r un ydy'r model. Rydych chi wedi gweld mae'n siŵr ein bod ni wedi hysbysebu'r bwrdd a chadeiryddiaeth Cymru Greadigol, a dwi'n gobeithio bydd y cyfan hyn yn weithredol, fel dwi'n dweud, cyn y Pasg, ac mae'r Pasg yn hwyr eleni, dwi'n meddwl. Gerwyn. 

No, the intention is—. This is going to be—. I will ask Gerwyn and Joedi to say a few words about this. This will be one of the central responsibilities of Creative Wales, because the difference between Creative Wales and the Arts Council of Wales is that Creative Wales has a commercial emphasis. Creative Wales also emphasises the role of businesses in the creative areas, whilst the arts council, of course, are involved with arts policy and the sponsorship of individual artists, authors and so on and so forth. So, I would say that is the main difference between the two bodies, and when I was handed the responsibility from the First Minister emeritus, who is a member of your committee here, it was made clear to me that if I was to be responsible for creative activities and to make progress in implementing the Welsh Labour manifesto commitment with the support of other parties in establishing Creative Wales, that we would do that with this emphasis on not trying to take over the responsibilities of any other arm's-length public body. 

And the important decision for us, and that decision was initially made with another similar organisation, namely Cadw, was that we would keep Cadw within Government, but we would ensure that there was a clear and defined budget line and that there was a relationship established through a chair and a board with the sector more generally, and the same is the model. I'm sure you will have seen that we have advertised for members of the board and a chair for Creative Wales, and I hope that all of this will be in operation, as I've said, before Easter, and I think Easter is late this year. Gerwyn.

Yes, just to come back to the original question about the evidence base around the grass-roots music venues study. It's definitely something that we want to continue and want to look to build on, because it gives us the evidence base—back to the first question, Chair—about how many venues have closed. We'll have that evidence base to work from. So, while the first report is based only on grass-roots music venues, not rehearsal space, there is an opportunity to build that into future work.

The priority now for Creative Wales is to set up an industry-led music working group, where we bring all key players from all different parts of the music industry to work with us to develop an action plan. So, Joedi's in charge of the sector team. We are about to appoint a head of music as part of that team, and we're in the process of doing so. When that person is in place, their first task will be to develop an industry-led action plan, which will use the grass-roots music venue as a starter with regard to the evidence base, but we want to work with local authorities and other partners to make sure that's updated every year so that it becomes a living document and something that's vital to how we make our decisions going forward.

09:40

Roedd y Gweinidog, dwi'n credu, wedi mynd heibio ac ateb fy nghwestiwn nesaf i, ond o ran—

The Minister, I think, had moved on and and answered my next question, but in terms of—

We can see into the future.

Ond efallai allwch chi ateb y cwestiwn o ran—. Dŷn ni wedi cael y cyngor celfyddydau mewn, ac maen nhw wedi cael pot o arian ar gyfer lleoliadau ac ar gyfer artistiaid, ond doedd neb wedi ceisio am y pot hwnnw o arian o ran lleoliadau achos roedden nhw’n dweud wrthym ni, o leiaf, eu bod nhw ddim yn gwybod amdano fe. So, jest i’w wneud yn glir, dŷch chi’n credu mai chi, gyda’r grŵp newydd yma, fydd yn lle ar gyfer yr ymwneud yma ac nid y cyngor celfyddydau, neu a fyddan nhw’n parhau i wneud pethau yn y maes yma hefyd? Jest i ni ddeall pwy—. Mae’n ddigon anodd nawr, dyw pobl ddim yn gwybod pwy i fynd atynt. Ydyn nhw’n mynd i fynd atoch chi neu ydyn nhw’n mynd i fynd at gyngor y celfyddydau, neu’r ddau ohonoch chi, yn y dyfodol?

But perhaps you could answer the question in terms of—. We've had the arts council in, and they've had a pot of money for venues and for artists, but nobody had made a request for money from that fund because they told us, at least, that they didn't know about it. So, just to make sure, do you think that you, with this new group in place, will have this involvement and not the arts council, or will they continue to do things in this area as well? Just for us to understand. It's difficult now that people don't know who to go to. Are they going to go to you, are they going to go to the arts council, or both, in the future?

Mae gweithgaredd cyngor y celfyddydau wedi datblygu mewn ffyrdd gwahanol mewn gwahanol ffurfiau artistig neu genres, beth bynnag yw'r gair rydych chi eisiau ei ddefnyddio. Mewn rhai llefydd, mewn rhai genres, ac mae cerddoriaeth yn un o’r rheini, mae yna bwyslais wedi bod ar gefnogi cerddorfeydd, bandiau pres, gweithgareddau cerddorol byw, ac mae hynny’n gallu cynnwys lleoliadau. Ond mae’r pwyslais yn gyffredinol, buaswn i’n meddwl, erbyn hyn, yng nghyngor y celfyddydau ar artistiaid unigol, ar lenorion unigol, cyfansoddwyr unigol, dylunwyr, peintwyr, ac yn y blaen ac yn y blaen, unigol, ac ar fodd o’u cefnogi nhw drwy geisiadau maen nhw’n eu gwneud i’r cyngor ar gyfer bwrsariaethau, ac yn y blaen ac yn y blaen. Ac fel yna buaswn i’n rhagweld y pwyslais, ond dwi ddim yn mynd i ddweud, a dydw i ddim wedi dweud erioed, wrth gyngor y celfyddydau beth ddylai fod eu blaenoriaethau nhw, oherwydd maen nhw’n gorff cyhoeddus efo siarter eu hunain a dwi wedi bod yn gefnogol iawn iddyn nhw. Dwi'n gyn-aelod o'r cyngor blynyddoedd maith yn ôl, ac felly dwi’n meddwl ei bod hi’n bwysig iawn i mi, fel Gweinidog diwylliant, fod yn gweithredu'r hen egwyddor barchus yma o fod ar hyd braich pan fo cyrff cyhoeddus yn y cwestiwn. Ond wedi dweud hynny hefyd, mae’r ffaith bod y rhain yn gyrff cyhoeddus yn golygu ein bod ni’n gallu cael y sgwrs yma yn fan hyn y bore yma. Ac mae’n rhaid bod yna ganlyniad i’r sgwrs yna, oherwydd dwi’n atebol i’r Cynulliad, ac maen nhw’n atebol i’r Cynulliad ac i Lywodraeth Cymru yn y gweithgaredd maen nhw'n ei wneud, ac rydym ni’n cael cyfle i wyntyllu ac i drafod blaenoriaethau yn gyhoeddus fel hyn, ac mae’r sector yn gallu clywed beth sy'n cael ei ddweud ac yn gallu ymateb.

The activities of the arts council have developed in different ways in different artistic forms or genres, whatever word you choose to use. In certain places, in certain genres, and music is one of them, there is a clear emphasis on supporting orchestras, brass bands, live music events, and that can, of course, include venues. But the emphasis more generally I would say now, within the arts council, is on individual artists, individual authors, individual composers, designers, artists, and so on and so forth, and looking at means of supporting those through the applications that they make to the arts council for bursaries and so on and so forth. And that's how I would anticipate the emphasis developing, but I'm not going to tell the arts council, and I never have done so, what their priorities should be because they are a public body with their own charter, and I have been very supportive. I was a former member many years ago. Therefore, I think it's very important for me, as Minister for culture, to be implementing this arm's-length principle where public bodies are concerned. But having said that, the fact that these are public bodies does mean that we can have this conversation here this morning. And there has to be an outcome to this conversation because I am accountable to the Assembly, and they are accountable to the Assembly and to the Welsh Government in terms of their activity, and we have an opportunity to discuss priorities in public in a forum such as this, and the sector can hear what's said and can respond.

Ocê. Mae diffyg amser yn golygu ein bod ni’n symud ymlaen yn awr, felly cymorth a chyngor, Helen Mary Jones.

Okay. A lack of time means that we have to move on, so on to support and advice, Helen Mary Jones.

Diolch. Thank you. Could you tell us, Minister, a bit more about the new grass-roots venue fund and how you see that working?

Wel, dwi’n falch iawn o hwn, ein bod ni wedi gallu gweithredu ar hwn yn gyflym, fel arwydd o beth rydym ni’n bwriadu ei wneud yn y dyfodol.

Well, I'm very proud of this, that we have been able to take swift action on it in terms of a signal of our intent for the future.

I'll ask you to respond further on this.

Ond yn gyffredinol, mae'r rownd gyntaf wedi cau, dwi'n meddwl. Mae yna 14 cais wedi cael eu gwneud. Mae yna ail rownd ar gyfer mis Mai, a'r bwriad ydy y bydd yna gyfle i leoliadau i wneud cynigion, i wneud ceisiadau, i fyny i £5 miliwn, gyda £120,000 ar gael fel cyfanswm.

But generally speaking, the first round is now closed, I believe. Fourteen applications have been made. There'll be a second round in May, and the intention is that there will be an opportunity for venues to make proposals or bids for up to £5 million, with £120,000 available in total.

'Mil' ddywedais i. Na, 'mil'. Efallai fy mod i'n siarad yn gyflym.

I did say 'thousand'. Perhaps I'm speaking quickly.

Five thousand. Yes, as the Minister said, the closing date was today for the first round. We've had 14 applications, which was very, very positive. The second round is open in May. So, there's £120,000 within the first pot of that, which is very much a pilot for us to understand how we can help and support the music venues.

Back to your earlier point, as well, working with the arts council and other partners to make sure the messaging is easy; there's no duplication about what we provide. So, it's been well received by the music venues and, hopefully, it will bring forward the issues that they face and how we can work with them in the longer term.

09:45

Just to ask for a little bit more detail, for our information—obviously the sector knows because they're putting the bids in, which is great news. Can you tell us: is there a maximum amount that individual venues can bid for in the grant?

Pum mil.

Five thousand.

Yes, I thought that's what we'd said. And spaces that are not strictly venues, like rehearsal spaces, they're not included in this—

Not in this pilot phase, no. It's all related to grass-roots music venues in the first instance, so, the study, the fund, and from there we build into the other areas.

Is that something that you might, because as you've said, it's a pilot, so is that something you might look at? Obviously, if the bands have got nowhere to practise, you won't have anyone to perform, and you can have as many venues as you like.

So, thinking about that then, just to move on a little bit to look at the kind of advice and support that are available to grass-roots music, I wonder what consideration has been given to funding a new body to give the kind of advice and support that the Welsh Music Foundation used to give? I should say, when I was running a youth work charity in Wales, we did a lot of work with the Welsh Music Foundation, and some of our young people have gone on to become professional musicians in lots of fields and made international careers for themselves that they wouldn't have been able to do, or they would have made mistakes around things like licensing, copyright and that sort of thing. So, are you thinking about a possible successor body to the Welsh Music Foundation, and if not, what sources of advice might there be at the community level for musicians? I'm thinking about musicians starting out in their career, but, of course, it could be people who perhaps are stepping up from an amateur to a professional status later on.

We have a music team now, within Creative Wales. So, Creative Wales's focus will be to provide advice and support to the music industry in Wales, but our remit is very much the commercial end of the music industry, and I think that's the difference between us and the arts council. So, there is some overlap there. But we have a team that will be providing that advice and support to the industry, but also, I think, when we develop this action plan for the industry, that will highlight any particular gaps that we need to look at plugging across our team and across what we need to put in place to support the industry overall.

I appreciate this is early days, so you may not have the answer to this yet, but because, obviously, this is a national team, a national centre with limited resources, how will you ensure that grass-roots organisations in communities know about the advice that's available, where to come and find you, and how somebody in Blaenau Gwent or Blaenau Ffestiniog could get access to that advice?

Well, because the whole creative sector is regionalised. It operates in a regional way and there's Gogledd Creadigol and there's those clusters in the south-east and there's activity in Swansea and to the west. So, the creative function is delivered very much in relation to grass-roots activity.

I think we'll also be doing a lot more social media activity, engaging with the industry in the way that the industry like to be engaged with. So, working with our key partners, as well, through this industry music group that Gerwyn mentioned earlier. We will work with them to establish the best ways of communicating, but I think a lot of it will be done through social media and online.

We're about to put in place a new marketing and communications team that will have a social media function, but that will have an engagement function, as well—how we engage with all the different parts of the industry. It's very diverse in its make-up, from music to digital, to animation, to film and tv. It's very diverse in what we do, so we need a strong engagement structure behind that so we ensure that all messages get to all people.

That's really helpful. Ms Langley mentioned the potential cross-over with the arts council's role in supporting live music. Could you just say a little bit about what those cross-overs are and how you see those different roles? It touches a bit on the Minister's earlier answers, of course, to the Chair in that regard, but particularly thinking about them in terms of giving support to the industry.

I think there are certain schemes that, for example, the arts council have in place that we've collaborated with them on—the momentum fund, for example, which supports music artists. So, I think there are certain areas of cross-over where we will work together with the arts council, not against each other. It's things like that, really. We're also talking to them about what we can do with the Horizons project that they're running at the moment, so a further extension of that, and BBC—

So, Forté Project, which is an arts council project, we're supporting that at the moment as well, to take that further around Wales and increase its reach. So, where we can work together to add our reach and our impact is what we'll focus on.

09:50

That's helpful, thank you. Just a final question: has the Government given any consideration to establishing a capital loan fund so that local authorities or other bodies could potentially buy music venues that were under threat and lease them back to their operators? Have you given—? Might that be something that might be in consideration?

Well, again, I will see what's in the Landsker report, but I'm not keen to establish a capital loan fund for local authorities. I'd be more interested in ensuring that other bodies that we have receiving funds from us, particularly Creative Wales, will be able to have partnerships directly with venues themselves and with organisations. We have the model in tourism where, from the Development Bank of Wales, we have a war chest, if that's the appropriate description in tourism, of a substantial amount that is—and I think I can say 'million' in this case—millions. Therefore, we're able to call upon that, and it would be the flexibility between a loan and grant in any specific aid or support for a project or a venue. That is the way that we would work.

If I could just add to that, we believe that music and the creative industries have a vital role to play in the regeneration of town centres agenda, so we'll be working with our partners in regeneration, who do have loans available through their schemes, to understand how we can support music and the wider creative industries to be part of the solution to the town-centre agenda. So, again, back to the fund, if the fund highlights grass-roots music venues around Wales that have the potential to go to the next level and become sustainable, long-term, larger businesses, we would be happy and interested to support them as well. So, understanding the landscape and then how we can support it is key for us.

So, just to make sure I've understood, potentially—and this is, of course, subject to the work that's been—. You might have a situation where, rather than—. Say you've got a business who's operating and operating reasonably successfully, but the landlord wants to buy them out, wants to clear the lease so that they can use it for some other purpose—that might be an opportunity for that company to perhaps make a direct bid, if it was a sustainable business, to potentially buy out its lease or that sort of thing, possibly.

Yes, I think that was the issue. It was if the landlord wanted to change the use, that there would be a possibility that, if somebody else wanted to use it for music purposes, that could be retained, in a way, by seeking a loan. I think that's what we were trying to ask.

No, they are for this committee, because we've been talking about planning as well, so—.

Diolch yn fawr, Cadeirydd. Rŷch chi'n wybyddus, wrth gwrs, o broject Forté a'r ffordd mae hwnna'n gweithio. Oes yna unrhyw gynllun i ehangu'r cynllun hwnnw i weddill Cymru er mwyn datblygu talent pobl ifanc?

Thank you, Chair. You're aware of the Forté project and how that works. Are there any plans to roll out that project to the rest of Wales in order to develop young people's talent?

Wel, yn sicr, y bwriad ydy y bydd ein cynlluniau ni, gan gynnwys y project penodol yna, ar gael yn gynyddol drwy Gymru, ac mi fydd hynny'n digwydd drwy'r cydweithrediad sydd wedi datblygu'n barod yn y maes cerddorol. Dwi ddim yn gweld problem bod yna wahanol gyrff na gwahanol gronfeydd ar gael cyhyd â'u bod nhw'n deall sut maen nhw'n gallu cydweithio gyda'i gilydd. Rydych chi wedi sôn am Forté. Wel, mae Horizons, wrth gwrs; mae gyda ni wahanol weithgareddau—Momentwm, Forté, PYST, dydyn ni ddim wedi sôn amdano fe, sydd yn bartneriaeth gyda Cymdeithas yr Iaith. Mae nawdd gan y Wobr Gerddoriaeth Cymru. Mae'r rhain i gyd yn bethau sydd yn gynyddol ar gael ar draws Cymru, a dyna ydy'r bwriad, fel bod gyda ni fap defnyddiol.

Mae Cymru Greadigol wedi sicrhau cyllid ar gyfer y project Forté yn benodol ar gyfer datblygu lleoliadau, ac mae hynny'n dibynnu eto ar ba fath ganlyniad a gawn ni o adroddiad Landsker. Mi fyddwn ni'n ceisio sicrhau bod y map o gefnogaeth yn glir i bawb sydd yn ceisio amdano fo ac yn glir i ni'n hunain hefyd, wrth gwrs. 

Certainly, the intention is that our schemes, including that particular programme, will be increasingly available throughout Wales, and that will happen through the collaboration that's already developed in the music world. I don't see there being a problem in having various funds or various organisations available as long as they understand how they collaborate and work together. You've mentioned Forté, but there is also Horizons, of course, and we have different activities—Momentum, Forté, PYST, which we haven't yet mentioned, which is a partnership with Cymdeithas yr Iaith, and sponsorship through the Welsh Music Prize. These are things that are increasingly available across Wales, and that is the intention, so that we have a useful map available to us.

Creative Wales has secured funding for the Forté project specifically in order to develop venues, and, of course, that will depend on the outcomes of the Landsker report. We will seek to ensure that the map of support is clear for everyone who makes bids and is clear to us as well.

Do you want to—? Are you okay on that? Do you want to add something to that?

09:55

Do you want me to add something to it? So, we've funded a scoping exercise to look at how we can roll this out across Wales, looking at three in the south, two in the north. That's for the Forté BEACONS project, and then we're also looking at two Forté projects emerging, one in the south and one brand-new project in the north. So, we are working with them on that at the moment.

Thanks. Would it be the case, then, that, if we look at the map of support—if I can call it that—Forté, Horizons, other projects—? How can we ensure consistency to ensure that there's adequate support available wherever you live in Wales according to what sort of project might be available to you?

That's the job of Creative Wales. That's our function, basically, is to almost take a helicopter view over the landscape and the funding landscape to—

A drone view then, sorry—to understand that the mechanisms available via Welsh Government and the public sector bodies are relevant to all areas of Wales and not duplicating. So, that's a key function of Creative Wales and where we'll be focusing.

Okay. In terms of Horizons, then, can Horizons develop into a more one-to-one service in terms of working with individuals?

So, Horizons is a project that's led between the BBC and the arts council. So, it's not something we're directly involved in. What we do is work alongside them to see where we can develop and exploit the impacts of Horizons. So, we're having ongoing discussions with the BBC at the moment around that. So, the Horizons project itself is led by the BBC and the arts council.

That's for specific artists, the Horizons project, and that's the emphasis I'm trying to develop. But I'm doing it not like that, but like this, as it were, in terms of encouraging people—

I'm not sure how that's going to work out on the Record there, Minister. [Laughter.]

Well, the Record is for somebody else. I can make what gestures I wish, provided it's within order in this committee. Diolch yn fawr.

So, that's right. Okay.

Dau gwestiwn, efallai, arall sydd gyda fi. Yn gyntaf, ynglŷn â'r proffesiynau sydd yn cefnogi cerdd, sef nid dim ond cynhyrchwyr ond hefyd hyrwyddwyr, rheolwyr, so y strwythur sydd o gwmpas unrhyw artist sydd yn sicrhau eu bod nhw'n gallu gwerthu eu sgiliau ac, wrth gwrs, marchnata eu sgiliau a gwybod fel mae gwneud hynny, pa fath o gymorth sydd ar gael er mwyn datblygu'r strwythur di-gerddorol ond hefyd hollbwysig i ddatblygiad cerdd yng Nghymru?

Two questions, perhaps—two other questions I have. Firstly, with regard to the professions that support music—not only producers, but promoters, managers, the structure that is around any artist that ensures that they can sell their skills and market their skills and know how to do so—what sort of support is available in order to develop the non-musical structure but one that is crucial to the development of music in Wales?

Mae hyn yn allweddol bwysig ar draws y celfyddydau a'r gweithgaredd celfyddydol i gyd, a buaswn i'n cyplysu hyn efo pwyslais Cymru Greadigol ar yr ochr fasnachol. Felly, dwi'n meddwl bydd yn rhaid inni edrych—a rydym ni wedi bod yn trafod, ac efallai hoffai Joedi ddweud rhywbeth am hyn—efo Sgiliau Cymru'n benodol i weld sut y gallwn ni fod yn fwy positif yn sicrhau bod yr economi gelfyddydol, yr economi gerddorol, yn gweithio, ac mae yna opsiynau rydym ni wedi eu trafod gyda'r gwahanol fusnesion. Mi fyddai hwnna'n rhywbeth byddwn i'n disgwyl i Gymru Greadigol dalu sylw penodol iddo fo gan fy mod i'n rhagweld Cymru Greadigol yn gweithio ar y ffin yna rhwng celfyddyd fel busnes a busnes yn creu celfyddyd, mewn gwirionedd. 

Well, that's crucially important across all arts activities, and I would link this with the Creative Wales emphasis on the commercial side of things. Joedi might want to say a few words about this, but we have been having discussions with Skills Wales specifically to see how we can be more positive in ensuring that the arts economy and the music economy does work, and there are options that we have discussed with various businesses and that would be something that we would expect Creative Wales to focus on, because I do anticipate Creative Wales working on that boundary between art as business and business creating art, if you like.

Do you want to add to that?

Yes. I think—you know, we're at the start of the journey here, really, I think, with Creative Wales. So, I think the first thing has been the grass-roots music fund, together with some of the other things we've talked about today, but this is something we want to talk to the industry about when we set up this music industry working group, and will form part of our action plan going forward—you know, how we support the other bits of the music industry, not just the bands and the artists and the venues.

So, we're having meetings on a regular basis with key stakeholders within Government who we think can help us push forward our agenda. So, the apprenticeship team within Welsh Government—we think there's an opportunity to develop some skills-based training around this area, but, again, it's going to be for the industry to tell us what they want in this space.

Y cwestiwn olaf gyda fi, te, ac mae hwn ynglŷn â fel mae cerdd yn cael ei ddysgu. Mae yna ddadl wedi bod ar y pwyllgor hwn hefyd ynglŷn â'r Gymraeg dros y blynyddoedd. Mae rhai pobl eisiau dysgu Cymraeg fel sgil, rhai eraill yn moyn dysgu Cymraeg fel pwnc, achos mae diddordeb gyda nhw mewn llenyddiaeth a dyna'r ffordd mae pobl yn astudio iaith.

Ynglŷn â cherdd, mae yna atgofion gyda fi o chwarae'r recorder yn yr ysgol gynradd—dwi ddim yn gwybod beth yw hwnna'n Gymraeg—a'r glockenspiel—dwi ddim yn gwybod beth yw hwnna'n Gymraeg na Saesneg—ond roedd yna strwythur yna i hybu plant i ddechrau chwarae offerynnau'n ifanc. O'r rheini, bach iawn byddai'n mynd ymlaen wedyn i astudio cerdd fel pwnc, achos doedd dim diddordeb gyda nhw mewn llenyddiaeth cerdd. So, ym mha ffordd, felly, wrth edrych tu fas, efallai, i gerdd fel pwnc TGAU a phwnc lefel A—ym mha ffordd gallwn ni ehangu ar beth sydd ar gael yn gerddorol i blant ysgol, yn enwedig y rheini sydd ddim yn mynd i astudio cerdd fel pwnc?

The final question from me, then, and this is regarding the way music is taught. There has been an argument in this committee as well about the Welsh language over the years. There are some people who want to learn Welsh as a skill, and others want to learn Welsh as a subject because, perhaps, they have an interest in literature and that's the way that people study a language.

In terms of music, I have memories of playing the recorder in primary school—I don't know what that is in Welsh—and the glockenspiel—I don't know what that is in Welsh or English—but there was a structure there to encourage children to start playing instruments at a young age. Of those, only a small number would go on to study music as a subject, because they didn't have an interest in the literature of music. So, in looking outside of music as a GCSE and A-level subject, in what way can we expand on what's available musically to schoolchildren, in particular those who aren't going to study it as a subject?

10:00

Wrth gwrs, byddwch chi'n gwybod bod y Gweinidog Addysg wedi comisiynu astudiaeth yn dilyn gweithgaredd y pwyllgor yma. 'Taro'r nodyn cywir', os ydw i'n cofio'n iawn, oedd yr adroddiad, ac mae hynny wedi pwysleisio'r cwestiynau dyrys ynglŷn ag addysg gerddorol. Mae cyfrifoldeb awdurdodau lleol yn y maes yma'n bwysig, ond mae Llywodraeth Cymru wedi sicrhau £3 miliwn o gyllid ychwanegol yn y flwyddyn ariannol bresennol ar gyfer darpariaeth cerddoriaeth o fewn i Gymru.

Ond beth sydd yn bwysig, dwi'n meddwl, ydy'r pwyslais yna ar fagu profiad o fwynhau cerddoriaeth ar draws yr ystod o ddisgyblion, ac mae hwnna'n mynd ar draws pob math o gyraeddiadau a galluoedd. Mae hwnna'n neges ganolog i ni ac mae o'n golygu ei bod hi'n bwysig bod yna berthynas dda rhwng addysg bellach ac addysg uwch yn y maes yma, cysylltiadau gwell rhwng darpariaeth addysg a'r diwydiannau, a dwi'n meddwl bod projectau y byddi di'n gwybod amdanyn nhw, wrth gwrs, ym Mhen-y-Bont, gan Northstone Studios ac eraill, er mwyn sicrhau bod myfyrwyr lleol o'r colegau addysg bellach yn cael profiad o weithio gyda cherddoriaeth ar lefel uchel mewn stiwdios, ac mae hwnna'n bwysig iawn i ni, ein bod ni'n gallu cyplysu'r elfennau masnachol a gyrfaol y tu fas i berfformio cerddoriaeth gan gerddorion unigol, dywedwn ni, i gwmpasu pobl sydd yn gallu bod yn rhan o gefnogaeth i'r busnes, ac mi fydd hwnna eto'n ganolog i waith Cymru Greadigol.

You will be aware that the Minister for Education has commissioned a study following the activities of this committee. 'Taro'r nodyn cywir', 'Hitting the right note', I think was the name of the report, and that has focused on some very complex issues around music education. The responsibilities of local authorities in this area are very important, but the Welsh Government has secured £3 million of additional funding in the current financial year for the provision of music.

But what's important, I think, is that emphasis on developing experience and enjoying music across the range of pupils, and that goes across the whole range of ability. That is a central message for us. It does mean that it's important that there is a strong relationship between further education and higher education in this area, better links between education providers and industry, and I do think that there are projects that you will be aware of in Bridgend, run by Northstone Studios and others, in order to ensure that local students from FE colleges do have an experience of working in music at a high level in studios, and that is hugely important to us, that we can link those commercial and career-based elements beyond the performance of music by individual performers to include those people who can be part of providing support for the industry. And, again, that will be central to the work of Creative Wales.

Jest i fynd yn ôl at y cwestiwn ar Forté, jest er mwyn ein helpu ni os ydym ni yn gwneud argymhellion, beth yw'r amserlen nawr o ran ehangu'r cynllun Forté i'r ardaloedd dŷch chi wedi eu penodi yn eich tystiolaeth yn gynharach?

Just to go back to the question on Forté, just to assist us if we are making recommendations, what is the timetable now in terms of broadening the Forté scheme to areas that you have specified in your earlier evidence?

Yes. I'm not—. I haven't got the deadline in front of me at the moment, and I'm not sure off the top of my head, but we can feed that into—

Ond esblygu un i ogledd Cymru, dau ar gyfer y canolbarth, a wedyn parhau gyda'r system fel ag y mae yn y de.

But one to north Wales, secondly to mid Wales, and then continuing with the system as it is in the south.

Yes. So, we've funded a feasibility into the Forté BEACONS project, which is exploring the roll-out of that across Wales, but there's an anticipation in that that there will be—. Forté south Wales will continue, but there will be a new Forté north Wales as well.

Yes. So, there was—. Sorry—. I don't have this in front of me at the moment.

Because we don't want to recommend something that you're already doing, so—.

That's all right. We're very happy with that—we just carry on doing it. It's a matter of getting funds from across Government.

Jest un syniad i ystyried—a fyddaf i ddim yn rhy hir, Cadeirydd. Os ydych chi'n bwcio tocynnau nawr ar-lein, weithiau mae'r safle gwe yn gofyn i chi a liciech chi rowndo lan i'r bunt nesaf, agosaf, a rhoi'r arian ychwanegol yna—efallai ambell i geiniog yw ef—i rhyw fath o elusen. Oes unrhyw ystyriaeth wedi cael ei roi ynglŷn â siarad gydag, efallai, canolfan y mileniwm a theatrau ar draws Cymru, safleoedd cerdd, i ofyn iddyn nhw os basen nhw'n fodlon bod yn rhan o'r cynllun yna er mwyn creu cronfa a allai gael ei ddefnyddio i ddatblygu nid dim ond cerdd, ond y celfyddydau'n gyfan gwbl yng Nghymru? A ydy hynny'n syniad, efallai, y byddai'n werth ei ystyried?

Just one idea, perhaps, to consider—and I won't be too long, Chair. If you book tickets now online, sometimes the website asks you whether you like to round up to the next pound, the nearest pound, and donate that extra money—perhaps it's a few pence—to some sort of charity. Has there been any consideration given to talking to the millennium centre, theatres across Wales, music venues, to ask them whether they'd be part of that scheme in order to create a fund that could be used to develop not only music but the arts in general in Wales? Is that an idea, perhaps, that would be worth considering?

10:05

Wel, dwi'n hapus iawn i ystyried unrhyw ffordd y mae celfyddyd a busnes yn gallu cydweithio yn fwy effeithiol achos, fel y byddi di'n cofio, mae'n siŵr, dwi wedi bod ynglŷn â datblygiad celf a busnes ar hyd fy ngyrfa gyhoeddus, achos dwi'n ymwybodol iawn fod angen anogaeth marchnad gymysg bob tro i gefnogi'r celfyddydau'n effeithiol a bod yna bobl sy'n fodlon buddsoddi yn ychwanegol i'r tâl am docyn oherwydd eu bod nhw'n teimlo eu bod nhw'n gallu rhoi nawdd uniongyrchol i gelfyddyd, ac mae hynny'n syniad da iawn. 

Well, I'm more than happy to consider any way in which arts and business could collaborate more effectively, because as you will recall, I'm sure, I have been involved with the development of arts and business across my career in public life, because I am highly aware that we need to encourage a mixed market to support the arts effectively and that there are people who are willing to invest beyond the price of a ticket because they feel that they can provide direct support for the arts, and that's a very good idea. 

Beth roeddwn i'n meddwl yw, rydych chi'n prynu tocyn ac mae'n dweud, 'Y pris yw £10.50. A hoffech chi felly dalu £11?' Mae gyda chi 50c wedyn sy'n cael ei roi i mewn i gronfa. Byddai hynny'n cynyddu yn ôl y niferoedd sydd yn dewis gwneud hynny. 

What I meant was that you buy a ticket and it says, 'The price is £10.50. Would you like to pay £11?' You'd have 50p then that could be put into a fund. That would increase, of course, with the numbers who wish to do so. 

Gwnawn ni ystyried hynny'n breifat, wedyn, ar gyfer argymhellion y pwyllgor, yn sicr. Diolch, Carwyn. 

Symudwn ymlaen at gynllunio. David Melding. 

We'll consider that in private for the recommendations of the committee, perhaps. Thank you, Carwyn. 

Moving on now to planning. David Melding. 

Diolch yn fawr, Gadeirydd. I wonder if you or your officials have had the chance to assess the impact of the agent of change principle, which I think was brought in about two or three years ago now. Just to remind everyone, that's where there is development into an area that has musical venues, or other venues, indeed, in terms of the night economy, it's up to the developers to ensure that the development is resilient and that there isn't any disturbance of the cultural activity that's going on around there. So, where do we stand with this? Has it helped? 

Well, this is relatively new territory, but obviously I am familiar with 'Planning Policy Wales', as a long-term resident of a national park, and there are very serious issues in relation to regeneration and urban change that arise out of your question. I think the latest relevant policy document is technical advice note 11 on noise, and I think that evidence relating to a review of TAN 11 has been published. I'll stand corrected if one of my colleagues would like to say something further.  

There was a call for evidence earlier this week on TAN 11.

I see. Okay. So, the intention is that the Government prepares a new TAN during this Assembly in this area. So, we are certainly very interested in any impact here. But these are difficult issues and there is a genuine conflict of interest now, of course, between residents and developers, or between new developers and older established activities. 

I suppose the agent of change principle does focus on the fact that we are moving residential into areas that previously had very little—perhaps the odd caretaker and one or two flats for people for temporary use, or whatever. So, the onus then, it seems, fairly naturally, is on the developers to ensure that the buildings are resilient, isn't it? That doesn't seem to me unreasonable. Some have suggested this principle should be taken even further with a deed of easement approach, whereby it's written into planning law that, you know, 'These are the conditions. You know the noise levels.'

There's a consultation on the agent for change, which is open now, so I think the key thing for us as Creative Wales is to get many of our stakeholders to feed into that consultation, to feed in their views on the agent of change, so that when that consultation comes in, we can work with others in Government to see if there is any potential for change. 

I think some of the approaches, such as the notion of place making, might be useful or, on the other hand, they may obfuscate, if that's the right word, some of the conflicts that inherently take place when places are changing and developing in a different direction. The only way that we ensure the democratic accountability of that and public acceptance is through the planning process. So, we will be participating across Government, obviously, in any discussion on planning impact processes. 

10:10

And then you've taken us on to this concept of place making and the well-being of future generations approach, in terms of planning ahead. Do you think some sort of approach by local authorities to be looking at cultural zones—is that useful? 

I'm not a fan of zones, as a concept, but what is important I think is the integrated planning approach, which is central to legislation produced by this National Assembly over the years. The social, economic, environmental and cultural impact of any development has to be assessed together. The physical development boundary is not just the issue, although, of course, zoning implies that you have that. And I alluded earlier to my affection for our designated landscapes, and the national parks in particular, but there are issues there, really—the countryside doesn't know that it is in a national park, it's just a designation. And I think we have to be very careful if we try to designate zones, which then either inhibit development or bring about development that is contrary to the expectation of the people within whose curtilage the development occurs. These are very complicated issues. 

I do understand this and it's a reasonable, important point indeed, because it can lead to inflexibility. But we do have zoning in effect. If you try to open a nightclub in the middle of Rhiwbina you'd have issues—and any other suburb that's principally for housing. I think that some of the operators of venues feel that the same principle doesn't work in reverse and this is an issue. 

I think for me it's—. Creative Wales—I think we're in our third week. So, there's a long-term discussion that's needed here, so we will be speaking with all chief execs, the more senior leads of the councils, bringing them together to understand how we, as Creative Wales, can work with them around the place-making agenda. My background is tourism, so I get the place-making agenda, and we think creative industries, music, have a big role to play in that agenda going forward. So, it's understanding what that discussion is about with regard to planning and licensing and all the other responsibilities of local authorities. It's through Creative Wales—how we can bring them together to make sure there's a coherent approach now.  

And then, finally, do you agree with me that this area needs a lot of attention, because it is very much the grass-roots and up to medium size venues that are vulnerable? Womanby Street is a classic example. Now, if one of my constituents complained about the noise from one of the big venues, then, that we have in Cardiff, they wouldn't get anywhere—the big arenas or the national stadium. People don't even attempt to complain, because they know those facilities are there and are of great national importance, and if you choose to live near them then you've made that choice. But then we do get to a level where people do feel that somehow they can be more active in their objections and this will have a big effect if it continues, and such venues are not viable, with no pipeline for talent and creativity being fully expressed, because the greatest acts usually start small, don't they? I think that's probably me imploring you to do something, rather than expecting you to respond immediately. 

I think I was one of the founding investors of the Clwb Ifor Bach project. So, I think we have an understanding of this issue, but we have to work with our colleagues in planning and we will do so.  

So, for example, Cardiff have set up the music board. We sit on that music board and a lot of that discussion at the moment is around planning and licensing. So, local authorities are starting to take it seriously and we're there to support them.  

And, in fairness, Cardiff brought together all the cultural portfolio holders throughout Wales this very week, and it was, I thought, a very positive discussion and there's a sensitivity to the issues you've raised. And we would certainly welcome further thought from this committee and any recommendations that you make—they don't have to be in a finalised state, but just to make sure that we do pay attention to these issues in any response that we make.

10:15

Can I just clarify what you meant by introducing a new TAN? I just wanted to be clear: you're consulting on the agent of change, what do you mean by a new TAN?

It's not a new TAN. So, technical advice note 11—

No, no, I understand that. But you said there could be a new TAN introduced. 

Well, that's what I mean—I didn't know what a new TAN would be, so thanks for clarifying. Okay, Mick Antoniw. 

Just a few questions with regard to licensing. Obviously, licensing legislation isn't a devolved matter, but obviously the implementation and application in many cases is. Is there any general view Government has in terms of how licensing is operating? Whether there are any concerns between licensing music venues and live venues as opposed to theatres, for example? Is there any issue that Government is looking at, or has a particular concern about? 

The licensing requirements will be certainly considered as part of the activity of Creative Wales, because it's precisely placed here between the commercial activity and the community or locality interest, and the relationship to both the business and to the artistic activity. We are aware of the issue of disparity in licensing between music venues and other cultural venues, and we will certainly expect Creative Wales to address this. Do you want to add anything to that, Gerwyn? Thank you. 

It's been brought up at the Cardiff music board, and other stakeholders have mentioned to us the disparity between different acts having different levels of licensing requirements. So, it's definitely something that's on our radar to work with the Welsh Local Government Association because it's not something that—. It's a local authority issue so we need to work with the WLGA to get a consistent approach to it. 

One of the issues, obviously, is concern in terms of—. These days, the importance of security at venues and the differential in terms of what's expected from a small venue to a theatre and so on, and also, the issue in terms of—. I mean, it's only since I've been on this committee I've understood what grime is, or I think I do. But, you know, there are the racial profiling issues and so on. Are those things that you're going to be looking at, or you have been looking at, or have a view at as to—? 

I think they are matters for local authorities and police forces in local areas, but it's part of the overall conversation that we're keen to have with the industry through this music action group that we're going to set up, but, in the main, it's for local authorities and local police forces to deal with those issues. But we understand that they are part of the issues around live music so we would be there to have conversations with them.

So, at some stage in the future, when you're before this committee, there'll be an opportunity to really explore how those conversations have developed, because these are certainly areas that have been raised to us by the stakeholders.

Could I just raise, then, one other area: again, there's the changing nature of events, with families and the increasing issue of children and licensing and so on—is that something that you will also be looking at? Because, again, it's been raised with us now and again—wanting to increase access to family participation in events and so on, and licensing generally there, and of course there are commercial aspects to it that raise that. Is that something that you think you will be addressing as well as part of this conversation?

We would hope to, yes. Nothing is closed off in terms of being a part of those discussions, so, as I say, it's very new in terms of Creative Wales being a part of these discussions, so licensing, we'll ensure, will form part of the action plan that we look at in terms of how we can work with partners to look at some of these issues that have been raised. But it's nothing we've looked at yet but we plan to do so. 

I suppose just coming back, because it's a little bit more controversial and has raised other issues as well, and that is just the racial profiling issue and so on. I mean, is that something, realistically, you think might be specifically addressed, because it raises certain broader issues than just the cost and the security issues and so on? 

Well, I think the celebration of the multiracial, multicultural nature of our society in Wales is central to any approach to this issue, and there must never be any suggestion that we do not recognise the cultural and community activities of all citizens to be of equal value, and, indeed, that diversity is a public good. I don't think I need to say more than that, and that will be the approach of Creative Wales.

10:20

What we can do, through Creative Wales, is show our commitment to that by supporting artists in the grime field, artists in hip-hop, artists in electronic music, not to just have a focus on folk music and rock music—traditional ones. We will, obviously, try and support all genres, and that will include grime and other areas, so that will be a definite focus for Creative Wales.

Just one question, following on from that, you've mentioned the Cardiff music board, would you be anticipating that there could be other music boards across Wales? Because I think, partly, the problem is licensing. We've heard—. We keep going back to Newport; we've been told that that's really good, and then we come to Cardiff and it's quite a hindrance. In other areas, like Swansea, we are told by Sin City that if they want to have people under 18 to come, they'll wear a band and they can show that they're under 18, so then alcohol is not served. So, there are ways around it. I appreciate it's not your responsibility, but by having a more—Cardiff will be all well and good, but are you hoping that you will be able to have these conversations on a Wales-wide level, so that some consistency can be seen through the licensing system to take away some of these hindrances to live music here in Wales?

Yes, obviously, given my lifestyle in north and south, I'm very strong on trying to ensure that the opportunity for a wide choice of activity in music or in any other artistic genre or activity is available throughout Wales. Therefore, what we will want to do, through Creative Wales—I'm piling a lot on colleagues in developing this new organisation. The fact that it sits within Government, but it is also autonomous—and I go back to my experience in establishing Cadw in a similar structure. It is possible for you to have a public agency that is also very well located, both within the community and the society, but also within commercial activity, so that we can take account of all those pressures on businesses, as well as the interests of consumers. That is the guiding light of Creative Wales, because it is a creative body that promotes creativity, but does so in an open and progressive way. That has to be the key to its success.

It's for local authorities to decide if they want to set up music boards, so we can, obviously, help, and if there are positive things that come from the Cardiff music board, we will be sharing those positive things to ensure that other local authorities are aware that that kind of structure works. But it would be for local authorities to decide if they want to set them up, but we very much would encourage that approach through Creative Wales.

Diolch yn fawr, Cadeirydd. A few questions on business rates. Firstly, are you able to tell the committee how many live music venues in Wales are currently receiving high street and retail relief?

This is administered by local authorities, but we do have some information on who has accessed relief. But we won't have this in full until the end of the financial year, but we'll certainly share whatever we have with the committee.

The guidance and the criteria of the scheme—. All music venues with rateable values of £50,000—I'll be careful with my thousands now, in English as well as in Welsh—or below should be eligible for relief. This is not the same as the relief system that is operational in England. The Welsh Government scheme is a different retail relief scheme, so there has been some confusion, because people think that some of these schemes are for England alone or for England and Wales. In this area, we will have to refine our own scheme if we are to make it effective.

Okay, well, whatever information you're able to provide to the committee would be useful. We picked up on some confusion, because I think the UK Government made an announcement of 50 live music venues being eligible for up to 50 per cent business rate relief, and I think they did that in terms of the UK before it was clarified that it was for England only.

10:25

It was the Music Venue Trust that got confused and said 'England and Wales' in their press release whereas it was for England only. 

Indeed. So, there was a little confusion, but I just wonder, really, whether you've had or you might have any discussions with UK Government in terms of whether there might be any consequentials for Wales from that UK Government announcement.

Well, I suppose we have to wait to see who the new culture Minister will be in the UK. We've had quite a few of them recently. Certainly, we are always up for discussion with the UK Government on matters, provided that they also understand the parameters of devolution. 

I know that tax officials would say that they'd have to wait to see what the consequentials are and then decide where that gets allocated in Wales. Obviously, we'll be arguing that some of that comes to the creative industries, but it's for our tax colleagues to see what that consequential is when it comes in and how that's then divided up across Wales. 

So, do we know that there will be consequentials at the moment, or is that yet to be determined?

It's yet to be determined, I guess. It's not an area I'm up to speed on. 

Okay. Might you consider, or have you considered a similar scheme of live music venues being eligible for up to 50 per cent business rates relief in Wales?

We haven't yet, but if this committee were to recommend something, we would obviously pursue it and research its practicalities. I don't know whether you've got any particular issues on this that you'd like to mention?

No, just to say that the existing scheme applies to music venues in Wales. I think it's called the high street and retail relief scheme. That's available for music venues already and they're benefiting from that, but we're happy to look at whether there's something better we can do with business rates. 

I guess what it comes down to, when that's finished at the end of the financial year, if it's clearly obvious that most classes of music venues are not getting rate relief, then it's a conversation we need to have. But if most of them are, then it's just that we've got a different system in Wales to England and it's not badged as rate relief specifically for music venues but they are still getting that relief. We haven't got the evidence yet to make that decision. 

How long has that programme been going? I appreciate that you're going to tell us in April, but we've had a lot of people coming in here saying that they know absolutely nothing about that particular rate relief scheme. So when we heard the new announcement, everybody went crazy thinking it affects Wales and they're getting really excited about it. I appreciate that the conversations are ongoing, but is this something that you could think about approaching the Treasury and saying, 'Well, if this money was available, we would want to do it in this way because we feel that there's an excitement around how that would help our venues'?

Okay. So, that's a continuation of the scheme into 2020-21, and the figure I have is £24.2 million of support available financially as part of that scheme. Now, we don't know how much of that goes to music venues, but hopefully the Landsker report will have something to say on this. 

It's almost certain that the Landsker report is going to highlight business rates as a key issue. I guess, coming back to my earlier point about engagement and communication, we will have that structure, now, to make sure that business is aware of the opportunities, whether it's business rates, planning or whatever it is related to their issues; we will have a structure through Creative Wales to ensure that those messages get out. 

Mae'r cwestiwn olaf gen i—doeddwn i ddim yn gwybod os byddai amser gen i ar y cychwyn—ynglŷn â cherddoriaeth cyfrwng Cymraeg a'r gefnogaeth mae'r Llywodraeth yn ei rhoi. Ond hefyd, yr ail gwestiwn sydd wedi dod yn amlwg yn y pwyllgor yma yw: sut ydyn ni'n ceisio cael senarios lle mae yna fwy o integreiddio rhwng bandiau di-Gymraeg a bandiau cyfrwng Cymraeg? Clywson ni, pan aethon ni i Wrecsam i siarad efo bandiau, ac yn y blaen, ac i Tramshed yng Nghaerdydd, bod silos yn dal i fodoli lle mae yna gigiau Cymraeg eu hiaith ac wedyn gigiau Saesneg eu hiaith, a dylai hynny ddim bodoli achos bod cymaint o dalent yng Nghymru gyfan. Felly, a oes yna ryw fath o syniad o ran sut i fynd i'r afael â'r mater hynny yn benodol?

The final question from me—I didn't know if we'd have time at the beginning—is in terms of Welsh-medium music and the support the Government provides. But also the second question that's become apparent in this committee is how we seek scenarios where there is more integration between Welsh-medium bands and non-Welsh-medium bands. We heard, when we went to Wrexham to speak to bands and so forth, and to the Tramshed in Cardiff, that there are silos still in existence where there are Welsh language gigs and then English language gigs, and that shouldn't exist really, because there's so much talent in the whole of Wales. So, is there any sort of idea of how to address that issue particularly? 

Wel, rydyn ni wedi mynd ar ôl hyn, wrth gwrs, efo'r bartneriaeth sydd gyda ni a'r cyllid rydym ni wedi ei rhoi i mewn gydag uned iaith Gymraeg y Llywodraeth yn PYST. Dyma'r rheswm pam ein bod ni wedi cefnogi PYST yn gadarn. Ac rydyn ni'n rhagweld y bydd y math o weithgaredd sydd wedi digwydd lle mae grwpiau Cymraeg wedi bod yn teithio yn yr Alban ac ym Manceinion ac yn Llundain ac yn gweithio ar draws unrhyw—. Does dim ffin, nagoes, rhwng Cymru a Lloegr, beth bynnag? Ond gweithredu yn y ffordd yma. Rydyn ni'n meddwl y gall Cymru Creadigol ddatblygu ymhellach ar ddefnyddio deunydd Cymraeg fel arwydd o natur diwylliant amlieithog Cymru, a'r pwyslais ar Gymru fel gwlad wirioneddol ddwyieithog o fewn y Deyrnas Unedig ac o fewn Ewrop, a sicrhau bod yna fwynhad o gerddoriaeth Gymraeg yn digwydd ar draws y grwpiau cenedligol, ethnig ac amlhiliol ar draws y Deyrnas Unedig. Mae hwnna'n sicr yn freuddwyd gen i wedi bod ar hyd y blynyddoedd, ac mi fydd Cymru Creadigol yn dilyn y llwybr yna, gobeithio.

Well, we have pursued this, of course, with the partnership that we have and the funding that we have provided with the Welsh Government's Welsh language unit in PYST, and this is why we have supported PYST very strongly. And we do anticipate that the kind of activities that have happened where Welsh language groups have been touring in Scotland and Manchester and London and working across any border—there is no border, really, between England and Wales, is there? But they have been working in that way. We do believe that Creative Wales can further develop the use of Welsh language material as a signal of the nature of the multilingual culture of Wales, and the emphasis on Wales as a truly bilingual nation within the UK and within Europe more widely, and also ensure that people can enjoy Welsh music across all national and ethnic groups across the UK. That's been a dream of mine over many years, and Creative Wales will be going down that route, hopefully.

10:30

Ac o ran strategaeth gerddoriaeth, neu ddiwylliannol, dŷn ni hefyd wedi cael pobl yn gofyn i ni am hynny, yn dweud mae'n dda bod lot o bethau gwahanol yn digwydd, ond heb strategaeth, mae hynny'n mynd i fod yn anodd. Ydych chi fel Cymru Creadigol yn mynd i ddatblygu hynny trwy'r grŵp gweithredol newydd yma? Neu ydych chi'n credu bod hynny ddim yn flaenoriaeth i chi?

And in terms of music strategy, or cultural strategy, we've also had people ask us about that, and saying that it's good that there are different things happening, but without a strategy, that's going to be difficult. Are you as Creative Wales going to develop that through this new action group? Or do you think that's not a priority for you?

Dwi ddim yn ffan o'r gair 'strategol'. Mae'n well gen i'r pwyslais ar gynlluniau gweithredol a blaenoriaethau, ac rydym wedi cyhoeddi blaenoriaethau mewn gwahanol feysydd o fewn y portffolio dwi'n gyfrifol amdano fo, a dyna fydd y broses y byddwn yn ei dilyn yn y fan hyn. Ond mi fydd y blaenoriaethau'n cael eu hysgrifennu, yn yr achos yma, gan Gymru Creadigol mewn partneriaeth efo'r Llywodraeth, ac mi fydd rheini'n dod yn amlwg ac yn glir i bawb yn y sector. Mae'r cyfan yn mynd i ddatblygu ar sail partneriaeth, ac os ydych chi eisiau enghraifft o sut mae hyn yn gweithio, mae'n gweithio yn y sector hanesyddol gyda Cadw, a dyna pam rydyn ni wedi modelu strwythur Cymru Creadigol ar ein llwyddiannau ni gyda Cadw. Dyna ydy'r model sydd gyda ni.

I'm not a fan of the word 'strategic'. I prefer to focus on operational programmes and priorities, and we have announced various priorities in the various portfolio areas that I'm responsible for, and that will be the process that we will follow here. But the priorities will be drawn up in this case by Creative Wales in partnership with Government, and they will be clear to everyone within the sector. Everything will be developed on the basis of partnership, and if you want an example of how this works, then it works in the historic environment with Cadw, and that is why we have modelled the structure of Creative Wales on successes with Cadw. That's the model we have.

Dwi jest yn credu, i bobl sydd yn gwylio, bydd hi'n ffordd iddyn nhw allu dwyn y Llywodraeth i gyfrif ar hyn a hyn sydd wedi cael ei ddelifro. Felly ydych chi'n credu gyda chynllun gweithredol, byddai pobl yn gallu gwneud hynny ta beth, lle eu bod nhw'n gallu gweld beth yw eich blaenoriaethau, beth dŷch chi'n ei ddelifro, ac wedyn, eich dwyn chi i gyfrif yn y ffordd yna?

I just think for people who are watching, it would be a way for them to be able to hold the Government to account on what has been delivered. So do you think with an operational scheme, they'd be able to see your priorities, what you're delivering, and be able to hold you to account in that way?

Wrth gwrs. A dyna pam ei bod hi'n bwysig bod Cymru Creadigol—megis Cadw—yn gorff o fewn y Llywodraeth sydd yn manteisio ar y berthynas ar draws y Llywodraeth, gan gynnwys perthynas o drosglwyddo cyllid yn achlysurol pan mae hynny'n gallu digwydd, ac yna hefyd yn gorff sydd yn partneru yn fasnachol ac yn chwilio am gwsmeriaid drwy'r amser, er mwyn bod y gweithgaredd rydyn ni'n ei hyrwyddo, p'un ai ydy o'n amgylchedd adeiledig Cymru, yn achos Cadw, neu os ydy o yn gerddoriaeth Gymraeg a Chymreig, beth bynnag fo iaith y gerddoriaeth—.

Yes, of course. And that's why it's important that Creative Wales—like Cadw—is a body within Government that can benefit from that relationship across Government, including the transfer of funds occasionally when that is possible, and is also a body that makes commercial partnerships and is constantly seeking new customers, so that the activities we promote, be it in the built environment of Wales in the case of Cadw, or whether it is Welsh language or Welsh music, whatever the language is—.

Iawn, ocê. Dyna'r cwestiynau sydd gennym ni ar hyn o bryd, a dŷn ni'n dod â'r ymchwiliad yma i ben gyda chi yma heddiw, felly bydd yr adroddiad allan cyn bo hir, ond diolch i chi am gyfrannu. Os oes unrhyw wybodaeth ychwanegol, plis anfonwch hynny atom ni yn y man. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Those are the questions that we have currently, and we are bringing this inquiry to an end with you today, so the report will be out soon, so thank you very much for contributing. If there's any additional information, please send that to us. Thank you very much.

3. Papur(au) i’w nodi
3. Paper(s) to note

Dŷn ni'n symud ymlaen, felly, at eitem 3: papurau i'w nodi. Mae yna bapur gan Gomisiynydd y Gymraeg ar y gyllideb ddrafft ac wedyn gohebiaeth â Chyngor Celfyddydau Cymru o ran adolygiad buddsoddi, a hefyd gohebiaeth â'r Dirprwy Weinidog Diwylliant, Chwaraeon a Thwristiaeth o ran y gyllideb ddrafft. Ro'n i'n meddwl ar eitem 3.1, y  byddwn ni'n gallu anfon y llythyr hwnnw gan Gomisiynydd y Gymraeg at Ddirprwy Weinidog yr iaith Gymraeg, gan nad oedd gennym ni dystiolaeth ar y pryd gan y comisiynydd iaith ar y gyllideb, mae llythyr y comisiynydd yn ei gwneud hi'n glir y bydd yna rai cyfyngiadau ar yr hyn y byddan nhw'n gallu ei wneud, felly os yw pobl yn hapus â hynny, byddwn i'n gwerthfawrogi cefnogaeth i wneud hynny.

We move on, therefore, to item 3: papers to note. There is a paper from the Welsh Language Commissioner on the draft budget and then, correspondence with the Arts Council of Wales, regarding the investment review, and also correspondence with the Deputy Minister for Culture, Sport and Tourism, regarding the draft budget. I think on item 3.1, we'd be able to send that letter from the Welsh Language Commissioner to the Minister for Welsh, but because we didn't have evidence at the time from the language commissioner on the budget, the letter makes it clear that there will be some restriction on what they're able to do, so if people are content with that, I'd appreciate support to do so. 

4. Cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.42 i benderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y cyfarfod
4. Motion under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting

Cynnig:

bod y pwyllgor yn penderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y cyfarfod yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 17.42(vi).

Motion:

that the committee resolves to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting in accordance with Standing Order 17.42(vi).

Cynigiwyd y cynnig.

Motion moved.

Iawn. Felly dŷn ni'n symud ymlaen at eitem 4, a chynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.42 i wahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y cyfarfod, os yw pawb yn hapus.

Right. So we now move on to item 4, and a motion under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting, if everybody's content.

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Daeth rhan gyhoeddus y cyfarfod i ben am 10:34.

Motion agreed.

The public part of the meeting ended at 10:34.