Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru

I call Members to order.

The first questions this afternoon are questions to the Minister for Education. The first question [OAQ54160] is withdrawn. Therefore, we move to the second question, from Leanne Wood.

Thank you, Leanne. Equity and inclusion are at the heart of our national mission for education. Our education reforms will ensure that all learners can access a high standard of education and, crucially, reach their full potential.

In recent weeks and months, I've been contacted by many people in the Rhondda, who are concerned about the support, or lack of support, for their child on the autism spectrum. I've discovered that parents are being told, when they've requested a statutory assessment for a statement of special educational needs, that the local authority no longer does statements. This is wrong, and, until September 2020, when changes come in under the new additional learning needs system, it is, in my view, a failure to discharge their duties as a local authority. Would you agree with that? And I would also like to know what you're doing to ensure that every teacher in Wales receives neurodiversity training. This was a recommendation that your Government accepted from the Health, Social Care and Sport Committee during scrutiny of the autism Bill. Can you please tell us what you've done to realise this pledge?

I have to say I'm very concerned to hear from you those reports that children are being refused the opportunity to undertake a statutory assessment for their additional learning needs. As you are quite right to say, the new legislation, which was passed by this Assembly in 2018, has not come into effect. We are currently consulting on the code and the subordinate legislation that will underpin that Act. And if you would be kind enough to write to me with some specifics on these cases, I will ensure that I and my officials follow it up. You will be aware that, to support the implementation of the new legislation, in anticipation of its full introduction in 2020, we have identified £20 million-worth of resource, and that is primarily to support the professional learning needs of teachers, to ensure that they have the skills and the knowledge to make the best of the opportunities that that new legislation offers us, which will put the child at the centre of our additional learning needs planning, whatever those additional learning needs will be. But I am concerned to think that children are not receiving the statutory assessments that they are entitled to under the current law, and I would be very happy to follow that up for you.

Thank you, Huw. Seventy years of Welsh-medium education in the Llynfi area will be celebrated. Partners in the Welsh language sector will celebrate that achievement through the borough in the annual Ogi Ogi Ogwr festival, organised by Menter Bro Ogwr, which I understand will take place on 14 July.

Thank you very much for that answer.

Thank you very much for that answer. We had a tremendous celebration as part of this, actually, only a fortnight ago, in Ysgol Gyfun Gymraeg Llangynwyd, where we had a tremendous concert, with singers and harpists, schools from throughout the area, former parents and pupils and governors, and so on, and a real ambition to look forward.

Can I ask, how will the Welsh Government work with Bridgend County Borough Council, and Rhondda Cynon Taf County Borough Council, in order to ensure ongoing growth of primary and secondary Welsh-medium education in Wales, and how could this assist in reaching the ambitious target of a million Welsh speakers by 2050?

Well, Huw, I'm very glad to hear about the celebrations that have already been happening in your local area. And I think it's fair to say that we have come a long way since the first Welsh-medium school was opened, in the Presiding Officer's constituency, in Aberystwyth, in 1939. But I would be the first to admit that we need to work harder, and with more ambition, in order to readdress the current imbalance in the Welsh-medium offer that is available locally. And clearly, education has a crucial role to play in achieving the Welsh Government's target of a million Welsh speakers by 2050.

With regard to local education authorities and county councils, we have outlined our expectation of each local authority, and the methodology is being prepared that sets out the percentage point range increase in learners taught through the medium of Welsh that local authorities will have to meet at our interim milestone of 2031. So, for instance, in Bridgend, we would expect to see the percentage of learners in Welsh-medium education in that area increase from 8.7 per cent to between 15 per cent and 19 per cent. And I know that the Member's constituency also has another local authority area. We would expect figures in the Rhondda Cynon Taf area to increase from 19.2 per cent to between 27 per cent and 31 per cent. We are supporting Bridgend local authority to do that by investment in our twenty-first century schools and colleges programme as well as co-location with nursery and childcare provision that allows people to begin that journey by choosing a bilingual future for their children from the very earliest days when we can provide childcare for them as well as nursery and early years education.

Well, expectations are one thing, Minister, but, in January of this year, the headteacher at that very same Ysgol Gyfun Gymraeg Llangynwyd said that any further reduction in budget would mean being unable to get specialist teachers, especially through the medium of Welsh. Now we’re all aware of schools’ general concerns about cuts to core funding, but what is our response to this particular claim about Welsh medium and its implications for the 2050 strategy?

Clearly, within the constraints of the very difficult financial settlement the Government is faced with, I’m determined to get as much money to the front line and into individual schools’ budgets as possible. Of course, financial resource is one thing; human resource is also a challenge and I recognise that. That’s why those seeking to qualify as teachers through the medium of Welsh attract the highest level of bursary from the Welsh Government to support their training as well as being subject to golden hellos when they begin their actual teaching career.

We’re working on a number of innovative plans, through from increasing the number of children taking A-level Welsh—many of whom, we know, will go on to be our Welsh teachers of the future— to initial teacher education, but also enabling teachers who are already in the system to increase their language skills via our sabbatical scheme. So, we’re looking to influence our future teachers, our current teachers and ensure that they have the linguistic skills to be able to provide first-quality Welsh-medium education for those families who choose it.

In looking at the most recent record of Bridgend County Borough Council in terms of Welsh-medium education, unfortunately the story isn’t a positive one. The council has failed over recent years to ensure that Welsh-medium education is a realistic option in a number of communities. In reality, a number are concerned locally that there’s an institutional problem in the authority where the Welsh language is concerned. Unfortunately, even Welsh Government targets in the latest consultation document on the Welsh in education strategic plans, in my opinion, are far too low—there is a need to raise the bar significantly. Do you, therefore, as a Minister, agree that the current situation of only having four Welsh-medium schools in the Bridgend county is a complete embarrassment?

Well, the organisation and planning for local schools of whichever medium of tuition is a matter, quite rightly, for local education authorities. What Welsh Government has is an enabling role, and the role of encouraging those education authorities to push the boundaries. And as I said, we have set out our expectations very clearly of the increase in the number of children that we would expect to be taught through the medium of Welsh in that particular county borough, and also, to support that, Bridgend have received approval in principle, of some £2.6 million through the Welsh-medium and childcare offer, and, as I said, that's to ensure that those parents, utilising the opportunity of the Welsh Government's childcare or early years provision, can do that in an extended Welsh-medium sector.

Questions now from party spokespeople. The Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Bethan Sayed.

I'm sure you'll be aware of the serious allegations of racism levelled at Cardiff University from a number of BME students in the last few days. I and, I'm sure, many others in this Chamber have received a report of testimony about racism, and it's shocking actually to read it. And also a Western Mail report outlines concerning reports experienced by an outgoing vice-president. My office has met with a group of BME students from the university who all used the term, and I quote, 'institutional racism' in the description of the university. I'm sure that many people may have read the report, but after the 'Anaphylaxis' show, BME students complained and were met with abuse, and some BME staff also faced abuse at a medical school party. Students chanted 'anaphylaxis' to the BME students. 

Now, I understand the role of universities entirely, but could you give assurances to students who have concerns and have had to deal with racism, and outline what actions you'll be taking with Cardiff University and with the students who have raised these particular concerns?

Can I thank the Member for raising this very important issue? There is no place for racism anywhere in the Welsh education system, whether that be in our schools, our colleges and our universities. We have had discussions as a Government with the university and with the students union involved, and I understand that there is ongoing dialogue between them both. All universities have to have strategic equality plans setting out how they will ensure equality of opportunity for students with protected characteristics, and these plans indicate the processes and the procedures that should be in place for institutions to tackle individual incidents of racial harassment or bullying or abuse, and clearly we will be keeping a very close eye on the development of those talks that are ongoing through the university and the union.

Thank you very much for that response. I'm glad you'll be keeping a keen eye on what's happening with the university. I know that Cardiff has insisted it is taking action and has accepted the recommendations of the report looking into this particular matter, and today, for the record, the vice-chancellor has written to me outlining some of those responses, which I am grateful for. But the trouble is that some students do not believe that, institutionally, Cardiff has been willing to contend seriously enough with racism or respond with enough gravity to reports and recommended actions. They also believe there is a wider cultural problem, particularly in certain schools of the university. So, I don't want to take away from many of the positive experiences that students from all backgrounds and cultures will have at this university, and I note that the satisfaction levels are overall high, but when there are minority groups who clearly feel that those experiences have not been dealt with appropriately, do you agree that this is a huge area of concern, and what more can you potentially do to stop these types of incidents happening again in the future?

Well, you're absolutely correct in saying that these are serious allegations that have been made, and my expectation is that the university will deal with them promptly, coherently and completely, and address any issues of individual behaviour or, more importantly perhaps, to address the entire culture of an individual department or school or the university as a whole. As I said, we take this very seriously. We are in touch with the university to understand what actions they are taking, and I would urge anybody that feels they have been subject to inappropriate behaviour of any kind to ensure that they come forward to give of that testimony so that we can have a full picture of what is going on. We also understand that incidents of this kind may potentially put people off from studying at university, and therefore all universities have fee and access plans that set out how they will support equality of opportunity for groups that are under-represented in HE—and BAME communities are often very much under-represented—to ensure that they have a very positive experience in higher education, and we have also made over £2 million available via HEFCW this year to support universities to develop their responses to supporting students with mental health issues, which potentially could arise out of any incidents of bullying of this kind.

Thank you for that answer. Your answer in relation to mental health leads me on seamlessly to my last question, and I acknowledge and thank you for the money that you've put into student mental health support. But my question is about what investment you may or may not be putting into the support for lecturing staff also. I've read reports in the last few days, and over the past few years, about workload issues at many universities, and we've seen one particular university where there's been a rise in antidepressants because of workload pressure, and we did see, unfortunately, a suicide, partly—I wouldn't say entirely—attributed to workload problems. Could you give us an indication as to what discussions you've had with the university sector and with trade unions, who have taken action in many instances about the fact that they too feel the stress, and they too have those mental health issues that they wish to deal with? How can you as Minister properly help them in this regard?

What's important to recognise is that the investment that's been made available to support better mental health in our higher education sector is not simply just to be used for students. It is actually to replicate, in the same way as we're trying to develop a whole-school approach to mental health, which affects both children and professional staff—that the same is done in our universities and colleges also. What we do know is that, often, staff who are suffering episodes of poor mental health, they can transfer that, those feelings, onto their students. So, actually, we need to tackle this in the round, both from staff and faculty.

Conservative spokesperson, Mohammad Asghar.

Thank you, Presiding Officer. Minister, good quality careers advice is essential to help students access the jobs and skills that are best qualified for them. But concerns have been expressed about the quality and availability of careers advice, citing the shortage of trained careers advisers and a lack of knowledge of apprenticeships and vocational training by school staff. What are you doing, Minister, to improve careers advice in Wales, please?

Well, what we've done, Oscar, after a period in which we were not able to commission Careers Wales to be providing a service in schools, we have those trained careers advisers back in our school settings, and, more importantly, we're currently running a Gatsby pilot in the Rhondda Cynon Taf area to explore best practice. The results of that pilot will help us develop an even better careers service for children and young people going forward. It's really, really important that children at a relatively young age have that support to be able to make good choices and informed choices about what they do next in their educational career.

Thank you very much, Minister, for the reply. I hope you roll out this pilot scheme, it is better. Inspectors already consider school careers advice provision when making judgments. However, last year, a committee of MPs in Westminster said that schools should be specifically rated by Ofsted on the quality of their careers advice. This will ensure pupils are getting all the information they need to become future scientists and engineers. What consideration has the Minister given to allow Estyn to give schools in Wales a rating that indicates the quality of advice provided in school?

I'm sure the Member is aware of the work that is currently being undertaken by the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development, Estyn and individual schools to develop a self-evaluation toolkit, which will actually help us identify best practice in schools, not just in terms of academic achievements, but also in areas outside formal qualifications. Because we expect schools, yes, to help children pass their exams, but we also expect schools to do many other things when children are in their care, and that work is ongoing. 

Close ties between schools, further education colleges and employers are a major factor in helping young people achieve their aspirations. Minister, what actions are you taking in providing colleges and employers with greater accessibility to school careers guidance services to ensure young people are provided with the information they require to reach their full career potential? Thank you.

I'm sure the Member will be delighted that, just prior to coming to the Chamber this afternoon, I was able to announce in our Seren event that the Seren foundation programme and the principles of Seren, which currently kick in for children after they've done their GCSEs, will now be rolling out for students from year 8. Some of the innovative projects that have already been undertaken in the pilot are working with manufacturing companies, engineers, scientists to expose even younger children to the entire range of opportunities that the wider world has to offer them, and I'm very grateful to the businesses, FE colleges and universities that have been so heavily involved in developing the programme, and I look forward to that being rolled out across the whole of Wales.

Our national mission provides all learners with high-level digital skills to ensure that young people are digitally competent and evolve into enterprising, creative and critical thinkers. The digital competence framework, which is the first part of our new curriculum reform, offers learners a set of skills to enable the confident, creative and critical use both of technologies and of systems design. 

Thank you, Minister. According to research by Oxford Economics, by 2030, robots will replace the majority of jobs in manufacturing. However, the analysis suggests that automation can boost jobs and increase economic growth if we adapt the workforce beforehand. Minister, what plans does your Government have to adapt the curriculum to ensure Wales is ready for the fourth industrial revolution?

If I could give the Member just one very concrete example, she will be aware, in the consultation on the curriculum White Paper, that it is my intention, in the new curriculum, to have three statutory cross-cutting responsibilities, building on the two we already have. At the moment, we expect all lessons to contribute to literacy and to numeracy, and, in the future, digital competence will become the third cross-cutting responsibility. 

Minister, obviously, automation is an opportunity for us. Figures do show that up to 35 per cent of the workforce will have to retrain, remodel, their skills and, indeed, many of those jobs might disappear altogether. So, the demands placed on the further education sector in particular and part-time learners are going to be considerable in the next decade or so. What efforts has the department undertaken to model the work so that they can work with the training sector, especially the FE sector, to build that capacity so that where people, particularly in work, need new training opportunities, that capacity is there, so it's not just in the school environment but is right the way through the learning culture that we want to ingrain in our society?

Andrew, you're absolutely right: we will need to ensure that our education providers at a variety of levels will be able to upskill our workforce. Many of those currently in work will be seeking opportunities to retrain or to gain for the first time skills that they will need to keep pace with the local economy. I'm sure that you will have seen the recently published 'Digital 2030' report. That's a new strategic framework for digital learning in the post-16 sector in Wales, which has been developed in collaboration with the FE sector. The framework highlights the importance of ensuring that learners are equipped with digital skills and experiences of using digital technology. 

In terms of the opportunity, then, to access those training opportunities, you will be aware, via a change to the funding methodology to our FE colleges, many of our FE colleges are beginning to get more into part-time provision for older learners. We've seen a significant increase in the number of part-time students applying to study via the Open University and, in September of this year, the Government will launch an individual learning account pilot in north Wales and part of south Wales, which will empower individual learners who are currently in work but in low-paid jobs with the opportunity to use that individual learning account to get back into education, either to allow them to progress up the career ladder or, indeed, to switch careers completely. 

Thank you, Mick. I am committed to the public sector in Wales being living-wage employers, including the education sector. I'm delighted that, in addition to local authorities, all FE and higher education institutions in Wales are now living-wage employers and are working towards formal accreditation of that status.

Thank you for that answer, and I'm sure you would welcome the University of South Wales becoming the two-hundredth employer in Wales to implement the living wage. We obviously want to see more institutions having the same level of accreditation, but would you also agree with me that there is still, even with those accreditations, more work to be done to ensure that areas of work and service within those institutions that sometimes may be outsourced or subcontracted also benefit from the same living-wage accreditations?

Well, you're absolutely right, Mick. In order to get an accreditation of the kind that the University of South Wales has recently been awarded, the living wage must be implemented both for directly employed staff and outsourced activity. Without that, accreditation cannot be won. 

Universities Wales members have committed to paying the Living Wage Foundation's living wage to all directly employed staff already, and they've already started the process of implementing the living wage across their outsourced HE activities. As I said, all institutions are currently in the process of being formally accredited for that achievement, and I'm very grateful to have worked in partnership with the Higher Education Funding Council for Wales, Universities Wales and the sector more widely to gain this commitment. The HE sector in Wales will be the first part of the United Kingdom's higher education landscape to achieve this goal. 

Minister, I welcomed your response to Mick Antoniw with regard to local authorities across Wales. Monmouthshire County Council was one of the first local authorities to attain the status of paying the living wage to all of its staff. As you said, councils should be doing this, public bodies should be doing this, and also the education sector as well. So, could you tell us a little bit more about how you're encouraging the education sector in Wales to follow the example set by the majority of local authorities now, and how you're making sure that these living-wage accreditations do happen and do have the weight that we would attribute to them? 

My remit letter of 2019-20 to HEFCW sets out my expectation that I will receive confirmation this year that all Welsh universities will have received formally their accreditation. And I have looked, wherever I can within my department, to make progress in this regard. So, for instance, the staff of the Student Loans Company that operate the student loan system on behalf of Welsh Government out of offices in Llandudno Junction—we've also been able to negotiate with the Student Loans Company an increase to ensure that all staff there are on the real living wage and are on salaries that are more aligned with Welsh Government officials, who actually happen to be working in the same building. Enabling us to do this addresses some of the issues of recruitment and retention of those staff, so that's just another example of what we're trying to do within education to ensure that, if you're part of the national mission, in whichever way you're part of the national mission, you will be rewarded fairly.  

Thank you, David. The new curriculum supports active travel. One of the four purposes integral to that new curriculum is that learners develop as healthy, confident individuals, able to apply knowledge about the impact of exercise on their physical and their mental health in their daily lives, and become individuals that take part in physical activity on a regular basis. 

Thank you for that answer, Minister. Would you join with me in congratulating Ysgol Gynradd Gymraeg Hamadryad in my region in Cardiff, which is becoming a pioneer for active travel in schools, not just in Wales but the rest of the UK? Their innovations are quite incredible: personalised travel planning for the pupils and parents; park and stride, so that, where a car has to be used, at least it's parked further away from the school. It's having dramatic effects on air pollution and walking rates for the pupils, who now on average are walking for between five and 10 minutes to and from school. Isn't this just the sort of programme that we want to encourage right across our education system and, who knows, we might get back to the age that I remember when I was at school when nearly everyone, unless you were ill, walked to school? 

Well, David, I can do more than just commend Ysgol Hamadryad for the approach that they have taken, because I myself joined the walking bus to Ysgol Hamadryad just last week. It just demonstrates, with a change of mindset, actually how achievable this can be. It's been affected by a number of issues. Obviously, it's a new school and therefore new habits are perhaps more easily instilled in individuals. But, in this case, it has been down to the leadership of both the headteacher and the school's governing body, as well as some of the physical constraints of where the new school is actually built. But it demonstrates—Ysgol Hamadryad demonstrates—what can be achieved when there is a partnership approach between schools and parents, and I enjoyed my walk to school very, very much indeed.  

Minister, it is good that we can benefit here in Wales from initiatives like Safe Routes in Communities and the active travel fund. I note with interest David Melding's contribution, and I'm thinking there could be many young people watching that who think, 'How can we get initiatives like that working in our own schools?' So, my question to you is: how are children and young people being encouraged to participate in the decision-making process that enables them to make the right choices? I know of several schools in my constituency that operate cycling proficiency training and walking buses as well, but how is pupil voice being prioritised within this area? 

Vikki, the Active Travel (Wales) Act 2013 itself requires local authorities to prepare their plans for integrated walking and cycling networks, in consultation with communities. And the walk to school toolkit, which was developed by Living Streets and which Welsh Government actually funded, offers an easy and systematic way to involve schoolchildren and local communities in assessing the active travel routes to schools, new and existing, and identify necessary improvements that need to be undertaken to encourage more people to travel actively to that place of learning. 

Minister, the Welsh Government released in December last year a statistical bulletin on active travel, 'Walking and cycling in Wales', compiled by the Office for National Statistics. And the figures show that 44 per cent of children actively travel to primary school; 34 per cent of children actively travel to secondary school. So, with new state-of-the-art education facilities being built and opened throughout Wales, the planned educational environment that we are building in the twenty-first century in Wales can tip and influence travel behaviour of the future generations of Welsh citizens. So, Minister, how is, then, the Welsh Government's transformative twenty-first century schools building programme being shaped to directly increase children adopting active travel as their method of choice to get to and from school?

Well, Presiding Officer, I can assure the Member that projects benefiting from Welsh Government investment under the twenty-first century schools and colleges building programme need to demonstrate very clearly that they have included provision for safe and convenient walking and cycling access to those places of learning.

Diolch yn fawr, Alun. Welsh-medium education is currently offered in all local authorities across Wales. The Welsh in education strategic plans are a mechanism for planning and expanding Welsh-medium education, and we are currently consulting on a new approach to planning Welsh-medium education by introducing 10-year plans and ambitious measurable targets. 

Thank you very much, Minister, for the answer. I was very pleased to hear the answer also to Huw Irranca-Davies's question earlier this afternoon. I know that you have a personal commitment to ensuring that Welsh-medium education increases across the country, and I know that you have been pushing that throughout your time in post. But I have been dealing with constituents and others, and I have heard stories from around the country, where people have found increasing problems in terms of getting transport to Welsh-medium schools to ensure that people can receive Welsh-medium education and also complete their studies through the medium of Welsh. Is there a way that the Government can make a clear statement that we all have a right to receive our education, right through the school, through Welsh, and that councils have a responsibility to ensure that people can have that right and have Welsh-medium education?

Well, Alun, yes indeed. All children in Wales have that right to receive their education through the medium of Welsh, if that's what they and their parents choose. Certainly, sometimes, parents and children face significant logistical disadvantage in accessing that right, often travelling significant distances to be able to enact that right. I am acutely aware of some of the changes with regard to post-16 travel that local authorities are consulting on. One of the strange things about Government is that I am not responsible for the learner travel policy. I'm sure many people would find it surprising that, as education Minister, I'm not responsible for it, but my colleague Ken Skates is, and I can assure the Member that my staff and the Minister with responsibility for the language overall are in discussions with Ken Skates on how we can address some of these challenges. Because what we know is that, in many areas, access to post-16 Welsh-medium provision is not available in a similar geographical way that it would be for English-medium tuition, and I don't want anybody not to have that opportunity of continuum because of some of these changes. And there are ongoing discussions in Government about how we can solve this.

I completely agree with Alun's question. Is a right really right when it's so easily frustrated by the ability of a local authority to say 'no' to transport? And I'm not just talking about post-16 transport, although, obviously, that's a very current issue in Neath Port Talbot in my own region. You alluded to this—I wanted to ask you: do you think the time has come for the Learner Travel (Wales) Measure 2008 to be replaced and for provision for free transport to the nearest Welsh-medium education to be included as a right, and that the issue of student transport is brought under the education portfolio, not the economy portfolio?

Well, Presiding Officer, I should declare an interest. My own family had to appeal a transport decision for my own children's ability to access their Welsh-medium education, along with another group of Powys parents. So, I am very familiar with some of the issues that parents find when trying to make that very positive choice. And I think it's particularly important that we address these issues if we want to encourage more people to make that choice. Because unless they can see easy access but also a broad continuum throughout all stages of learning for Welsh medium, many parents, especially those from non-Welsh-speaking households, might not make the first step on that journey, and I want more parents to be able to do that. As I said, there are ongoing discussions between myself, the Minister, and the Minister for Economy and Transport about the learner travel Measure. Whether there's time at this point to completely review that piece of legislation, which, of course, means that nobody is entitled to post-16 travel regardless of language of tuition—those discussions are ongoing, because I recognise that there are specific issues related to the Welsh medium that potentially are putting parents and pupils at a disadvantage.

The first five-year phase of the twenty-first century schools and education programme will see £87 million invested in the rebuild and refurbishment of schools in Carmarthenshire. A further £129.5 million has been earmarked for the second phase of the programme from April 2019, subject, of course, to the usual process of business cases being dealt with.

I'm grateful to the Minister for her reply. I'd like to suggest, Minister, this afternoon—to offer you the opportunity to congratulate the governors, the local authority, staff and school pupils at Pontyberem school, which has had substantial investment from the twenty-first century schools fund and is going to be reopened on Monday. I know that you've received an invitation and, unfortunately, you're not able to be with us that day, but I think you will—and I hope that you will—acknowledge that it's been a really effective piece of work that's made really good use of existing estate, that we don't always have to build from scratch—even though sometimes we might want to—but we don't always need to build from scratch to make real difference to the environment in which our teachers are working in and in which our pupils are learning. I hope you will also join me in congratulating Carmarthenshire in being really proactive in making sure that they make the best use of those resources that are available. And, most of all, I hope that you'll wish the parents and pupils and all of us a really happy day on Monday, because it certainly is something to celebrate.

Well, can I thank the Member for bringing to the attention of the whole Assembly the official opening of Ysgol Ponyberem next week? I'm very disappointed that I'm not able to attend. One of the most wonderful aspects of being the Minister for Education is to be able to travel the length and breadth of the nation opening new buildings, whether that be a complete new build or very, very successful refurbishments or extensions on the existing school estate.

I'm sure the Member would share my ambition that children and those who educate and work with them deserve to do that important work in buildings that are fit for purpose and allow them to make the most of those opportunities. Although sometimes, perhaps, from time from time, relations between Welsh Government and local government can get a bit feisty, the strong partnership working between local authorities across Wales and the Welsh Government has made this capital investment programme, I think, one of the most successful capital programmes that the Welsh Government has enjoyed, because of that close partnership working between us and our local authorities. I commend all of those who are working really, really hard to get these buildings up and open and I hope they have a wonderful, wonderful day.

Minister, the mutual investment model that finances most of the twenty-first century schools programme in Carmarthenshire and throughout the rest of Wales is a really welcome evolution from the old-fashioned PFI, but, of course, with all of these issues, there's always a balance to be had between loss of control and being able to be fiscally exposed. Now, the mutual investment model does have a fiscal exposure for the Government and for local authorities and I just wanted to understand a little bit more clearly what your opportunity and risk evaluation process is to ensure that things such as the lack of ability to profit-cap or cost overruns, project overruns, and, of course, the higher rate of borrowing—how that impacts the twenty-first century schools programme.

Well, Angela, you're right; the MIM—the mutual investment model—does give us the opportunity as a Government, working alongside partners, to be able to lever in an additional £500 million-worth of resource into the programme, which allows us to complete even more refurbishment and new-build projects. That needs to be managed very carefully, and local authorities and FE colleges that are involved in that process need to be supported with the skills alongside the skills that they would have in-house. We're currently working as a Government with our partners to develop a model that will provide that support, which in turn itself will try and safeguard individual councils or colleges from the problems that you've just identified. And I'd be very happy to update Members when a final decision around that has been made, which is imminent.

Thank you, Joyce. We continue to provide financial and regulatory support to the sector through HEFCW, which, together with our student support reforms, will create a stronger, more sustainable HE sector across the nation.

Thank you for that answer, but last week, there was a worrying report in the media concerning the future of the Lampeter campus of the University of Wales Trinity Saint David, and in recent years there has been a decline in the number of departments, staff and students at that particular campus. Understandably, both the students and the local residents, and the businesses that depend on that university, are really concerned about the economic viability and the effects that will have on the wider community. They're especially concerned about the announcement by the university that they're looking to make a £6.5 million cut and 100 job cuts across their three campuses, which does include Carmarthen, Swansea and Lampeter. Can I ask, Minister, if you've had any discussions whatsoever with the university regarding the future of the Lampeter campus and the University of Wales Trinity Saint David?

Thank you, Joyce. I spoke to the vice-chancellor of that institution last week and received a categorical assurance on the future of educational provision at the Lampeter campus from him.

Minister, I'm sure you'll agree with me that partnerships between higher education authorities and businesses are critical to ensure that the next generation have the knowledge and right skill sets to enter the workforce, which I'm sure will be very different in 10 years' time, given the adoption of automation and artificial intelligence. Naturally, these changes will require workers everywhere to deepen their existing skill sets or even acquire new ones. With this in mind, what is the Welsh Government doing to support higher education institutions to work with employers to make sure the workforce of the future has the necessary skills and knowledge to actually enter the workplace?

If I can give the Member a concrete example of how we're doing just that, and that is our degree apprenticeship programme. That degree apprenticeship programme sees individuals based in the company for the vast majority of their time but undertaking some part-time study. That's not the same as thinking that those students just do a normal degree on a part-time basis; the programme that has been developed by the university has been done deliberately in partnership with those businesses that employ the student.

We've just heard a question about Trinity. I've been very fortunate to see for myself some of those involved in the Trinity Saint David digital degree apprenticeship programme—a young woman who decided to go down that route at 18 rather than the more traditional undergraduate programme. And we hope to extend the number of professions that are covered by degree apprenticeships later on this year, focusing especially on digital, engineering and other STEM subjects, thus allowing businesses and universities to work together to deliver a curriculum that truly meets the needs of individuals but also the wider economy.

Finally, question 10—Mark Isherwood.

Thank you, Mark. Welsh Government provides funding to local authorities, Careers Wales, and further education institutions to deliver services that support pupils with additional learning needs entering into post-16 education. Furthermore, our ambitious ALN reforms will deliver improved collaborative assessment, planning and monitoring of support provided to all learners with an ALN.

Thank you. After the Welsh Government announced in the last Assembly that placements to specialist colleges for students with learning difficulties and learning disabilities would normally now be for two years rather than three, I visited Derwen College in Gobowen just across the border, which takes students from England and Wales. The Welsh Government at the time responded by stating that this was flexible; it would consider individual cases according to individual circumstances and needs, and the college showed me that the third year was critical, because that's when they provide the direct work experience in partnership with employers locally. I've now been contacted by a Flintshire mum, whose son attends the college on a two-year placement, who, in a review meeting, has been told that students from England can still have three-year placements, but students from Wales only two, and the flexibility that was previously available has not been made available to her. What is your current position to enable or ensure that students who need that third year in Wales can access funding for it through the appropriate processes, or is it simply now a blanket 'no'?

No, it's not at all a blanket 'no'. We would expect the majority of placements to last for two years, however, all these placements come to me, as Minister, for sign-off and I know that I have signed off, for this financial year, a number of three-year placements, because that three-year placement has been designated and decided is the most appropriate length of study for an individual student. And from time to time, we have requests that are brought forward to extend a two-year placement to a third year if that's in the best interest of the learners. So, there is absolute flexibility still in place within Wales, and the nature, whether it's two years or three years, or whether a two-year needs to extend into a third year is a matter of an individual's assessment, and there is no blanket policy of saying only two years.

Thank you, Minister.

The next questions are questions to the Minister for Health and Social Services. The first question is to be answered by the Deputy Minister and the question is to be asked by David Rowlands.

Diolch, Llywydd. I'm sorry, Llywydd. I do apologise, Llywydd. That came upon us a little quickly, I'm afraid.

Question 1 is usually asked and expected to be asked. David Rowlands.

Deputy Minister, a large part of my casework is taken up with matters related to social services—[Interruption.]

You need to ask the question on the order paper. Question 1, David Rowlands.

I do apologise. Thank you.

Thank you for that question. Our primary aim is to support children to stay with their birth families where possible. Care decisions, including on adoption, are taken solely in the best interests of the child. The number of court-ordered adoptions has been falling, but we recognise that adoption can offer stable, loving families and good outcomes.

Thank you for that answer, Deputy Minister. A large part of my casework is taken up with matters related to social services, in particular with regard to the adoption services. This is not surprising given that, in the South Wales East region alone, some 280 children were referred for adoption in 2016-17—a massive 66 per cent increase on the previous year.

I understand that this trend has been replicated throughout Wales according to the National Adoption Service. It is laudable that the First Minister has recognised these trends, as outlined in yesterday's statement, and has issued instructions to attempt to alleviate what can only be called an epidemic of such adoptions. However, the decision of whether or not to remove a child from its birth family lies with the social worker involved, and as highlighted below, many of these decisions seem to be endemically flawed. One of my cases involved a child receiving a minor injury who was then removed from their family for six months, causing immense trauma to her parents and grandparents. It was subsequently found that there was no case to answer as far as neglect or the deliberate inflicting of this injury. Indeed, the child suffered far more injuries whilst in care, although these were such as one would normally associate with a young child growing up. Llywydd, we, on these benches, feel that there is an undeniably—

You're not addressing me; you need to ask your question of the Deputy Minister, and in having taken a long time to actually find your question, you're now taking a long time to ask your question. Can you please ask the question?

Does the Minister not agree that there is an undeniably strong case for investigating the whole adoption service, especially given the spiralling cost to the public purse?

As I said in answer to the question that you read it out, what we're trying to do is to prevent children needing adoption by trying to keep them at home with their families. So, we're investing in edge of care services, which are now operating in all the regions in Wales. We've given £2.3 million to help prevent children who have been adopted coming back into care, which does happen because of the support that is needed for adoption. The decision to adopt is a very serious decision, as the Member recognises. It does require a decision by a court, so it's not at the whim of a social worker. It's very carefully thought out and it should be the last resort; every effort should have been made before you reach the situation where an adoption takes place, particularly if it is against the wishes of the natural birth parents. So, I think what we are doing in Wales is trying to shift the balance. We're trying to make sure that fewer children come into care and then need adoption, and for the ones who absolutely do need adoption, after making every effort to stop it happening, as much support as possible is given to make those adoptions successful.

In yesterday's statement on improving outcomes for looked-after children, you mentioned, Minister, that you've seen the number of looked-after children in Wales increase by 34 per cent over the past 15 years, and you've promised to look at this closely. I wonder if you have or you would consider launching an investigation into the rise of looked-after children as part of this process.

I think it's very difficult to know what has actually caused this rise in the number of children, and I know that there have been calls to look at why this has actually happened. It does seem to be for multiple reasons, and it's very difficult to actually choose one particular reason. But, certainly, in the work that we're doing now on trying to prevent children coming into care—I mean that 34 per cent is an alarming figure and we certainly don't want that to go on, and that's why we're working with all the local authorities in Wales to try and bring things down. During the process of this very intensive work we're doing, we will look to see what more needs to be done, because it is alarming and if it continues to go on, it will be very bad news.

I fully support your policy and the direction it's going, I think the issue is that filtering down, because, on the ground level, children seem to be taken into care far too easily. So, my question is: how can we empower parents? Could we create a professional advocacy service for parents? Because there seems to be a blanket thing called avoiding future emotional harm, and child after child after child is being taken into care, put up for adoption. I'm trying to support one mother at this moment whose life has been ruined by her interaction with children's services. And she took the step of aborting her unborn child to avoid it being taken into care, and that whole family is devastated. What strikes me, with case after case after case, is the complete lack of rights and the complete lack of empowerment. And if you're a parent who's been through the care system yourself, then you are treated in an appalling manner sometimes. So, how can we empower parents?

One of the things we are doing is setting up the Reflect project, which the Member may know about, which is for women who have actually had a child already taken off them, so they have already got one child in the care system. So, the Reflect project is an effort to try to stop that happening again. So, again, we've got that project rolled out all over Wales. It's not enough, there's a huge amount that needs to be done, and I absolutely agree that we have to give as much support as we can for parents to keep their children, and we do have a long way to go. But we are doing it with the support that we are giving and, in particular, I would recommend that the Member looks at the Reflect project, which looks at the particular sort of case that he describes.

Community pharmacy has a significant role to play in delivering primary care in Wales today. Real progress has been made through new contractual arrangements that support clinical service delivery, collaboration and quality improvement. Choose Pharmacy is now available in 98 per cent of pharmacies across Wales and I have provided over £4.5 million this year to enhance training within the profession.

I thank the Minister for that reply, and I strongly support the Welsh Government's policy of using pharmacists more to supplement primary care, but I've had two cases from Dwyfor Meirionnydd in my region of patients who left a medicines use review with the pharmacist under the false belief that they'd been asked to modify their medicine regimes. The source of the confusion wasn't exactly clear here, and it was subsequently rectified by their GP, so no harm was actually done. But there does seem to be potentially a systemic problem here whereby the health board has to have a record of the MUR having taken place, and the patient has to sign that, but in these particular instances there wasn't any written record, either electronic or paper, that provided details of the advice or recommendations that had been given in the review. The potential safety risk to a patient with memory or comprehension problems is obvious, so I wonder what might be done to introduce a more rigorous regulatory check for medicines use reviews conducted by pharmacists to try to reduce these problems to the absolute minimum.

There's a risk in every interaction with the healthcare profession where advice is given, and it's either written down or not written down in terms of how the person is able to or chooses to use that information and that advice. Part of the point about the roll-out of Choose Pharmacy is that it allows pharmacists as regulated healthcare professionals themselves to make entries onto the GP record. We see that already with the common ailments service that's been rolled out. I'm always interested in hearing more specific examples of what's gone on, if it's individual practice or if it tells us something at a system level. So if the Member wants to write to me with the detail of the incident, then I can consider that with officials and with the health board, whether it is indeed an individual matter to be taken up or if it does tell us something that we need to address at a system level.

Minister, I was pleased to visit a community pharmacy in my constituency earlier this week, and I had a very positive conversation with the pharmacist about the services he offers and indeed some of the challenges he faces as well. One of the issues he raised was the NHS computer system, which is used to store patient information. He feels he's greatly hampered by the long-winded process of logging on to a computer system that appears to struggle to download basic information. Whilst, of course, personal data must be kept secure, I'm told that on occasion it can actually take up to 20 minutes to get through the security logins to provide a service for the patient that should only take around five minutes. I'm sure the Minister will agree with me that it's important to access information in a timely manner, especially when a patient is waiting. Will he and his officials therefore look into this matter to make sure that pharmacies are able to provide an efficient service, given that pharmacies are providing more and more services to patients?

Yes, again, if the Member writes to me with the details of the matter I can look at whether it's an individual issue or a system-wide issue for us to address. But, overall, we have an ambitious programme for community pharmacy already as part of the primary care team as it exists, and a bigger role to play in the future—not just the common ailments system, but it's also why we're taking a different approach to other countries in the UK. Across the border there's a 7 per cent cash reduction in community pharmacy; over 120 community pharmacies have closed. We've maintained our investment, we've increased it, we have further ambition for the future, and we're deliberately rolling out access to GP systems to make sure that pharmacists can enter information into it, and that's what Choose Pharmacy is designed to help to deliver: access to information so that it's available, and that will then allow us to provide even more services in the community pharmacy sector.

Questions now from the party spokespeople, and the Conservative spokesperson, Angela Burns.

Minister, I'm sure you're aware of the eye disease keratoconus, which can lead to patients completely losing their sight. Can you please explain why the recognised treatment for this disease is not available on the Welsh NHS?

I've had correspondence with a number of Members on this in different parts of the country, and about some of the challenges. It is about our skill mix and ability to deliver the right treatment as recommended by the National Institute for Health and Care Excellence. It is something that we are deliberately working through and I've had correspondence with Members, as I say, in different parties on it. It's about the capacity and ability of our system to deliver all that we would wish to.

Minister, for £2,000 you can nip down to the Princess of Wales Hospital in Bridgend—which, the last time I looked, was an NHS hospital—and you can pay an NHS surgeon, in his spare time, for £2,000, to actually give you the treatment that saves the sight in your eye. I fail to see that that's to do with capacity; I think it's to do with will. Will you undertake to look at this process? It's called cross-linking: for those who do not know, your cornea, instead of being a smooth curve like the planet, becomes like a mountain range. The use of this LED light helps to flatten it—not always, but sometimes it does come back. But my goodness me, if you can get another six months, one year, or two years more sight for £2,000, I fail to understand why we're not doing it. Will you please look at this?

I'd be happy to look at it, but it's not a matter of will. It is always about how we use the resources we have. And it's not just about money, it's about people. And we're going to have a debate later today about eye-care measures, and the determination we do have as a Government, together with the health service, to save the sight of more people, and have measures that promote that activity, to make sure we actually address sight loss before it actually takes place.

Minister, it's entirely about money and about resources. And, as I've said, you've got the resources there—I can pop you in my car, drive you down there, and show you them. The money is not very great. I totally understand that if you're talking about a very, very expensive treatment, then you might look at the cost-benefit analysis. I can totally understand that, if you're talking about an illness where there are a number of different solutions, and this just happens to be one in the mix, and one we choose not to support for whatever reason. But this is the only treatment. Once you've gone blind, you then have to go onto a waiting list for a corneal transplant—they're not easy. So, my constituent, who's 19 years old, and is a student, went and borrowed £2,000 off his employer, because nobody told him about the IPF. He borrowed £2,000, and went and had one of his eyes done; he's now scoping for the other £2,000 to have the other eye done. He's 19 years old—he doesn't want to go blind, he's got his whole life ahead of him. And the question he asked me to ask you is: 'Why, for the cost of £2,000, are the Welsh NHS happy to see me lose my sight?'

The Welsh NHS is not happy to see people lose their sight. I think that's a very unfortunate way to end the contribution. Because this is about resource and capacity, it is about people who can undertake the work, and it's about having a system that can deliver in a way that is properly equitable. I'm more than happy to engage in correspondence with the Member, to address the issues that she raises, and the broader point about how the whole healthcare system addresses that.FootnoteLink Because the NHS is an organisation that delivers great volume and great benefits to the public, but there is always room for improvement. And I hope that we can recognise that in all of our interactions, within and outside the Chamber.

The Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Helen Mary Jones.

Diolch, Llywydd. Minister, the latest figures show that the median response time for amber calls has more than doubled, from around 12 minutes to around 26 minutes, over the last three years. Do you think that matters?

Yes, it matters. But the challenge that we have set out for our ambulance system is to prioritise those with the greatest need, where the fastest response will make the biggest difference. That's why—before, admittedly, you came into the Chamber in this incarnation—the clinical review process was undertaken, to understand which conditions should have an eight-minute response time, and which should not, but would still have a blue light response. And the evidence does tell us that those that are in the eight-minute category—the red category—it does make a difference if there's a really fast response. Those in the amber category do have an urgent care need, and will receive a blue light response, but it is less urgent, and will make less of a difference. And, actually—and I've reiterated this many times over when we talk about ambulance response times—the approach that we have led on and taken here in Wales has been copied across the United Kingdom. The SNP Government in Scotland have taken a broadly similar approach. Even the Conservatives in England have borrowed our approach, although you won't hear a Conservative Minister stand up and say they're doing that.

I don't think my concern is about the overall approach, but my concern is about the knock-on effects for particular conditions. A freedom of information request from my office showed 4,038 patients waiting longer than an hour for an ambulance to arrive when they had a stroke, between January 2018 and March this year. Strokes are a life-threatening emergency; when they're not life-threatening, they can absolutely devastate people's lives. Is it acceptable that we have over 4,000 people waiting for longer than an hour for this very distressing, and, in many cases, life-threatening medical emergency?

No, which is why I set out and instigated the amber review process that took place—again led by clinicians working in the service. I gave a statement on this within the last few months—on setting out the reform and improvement programme that has taken place. I've directed the Chief Ambulance Services Commissioner for Wales and the emergency ambulance services committee to undertake that programme of work to deliver the improvement that is required and possible. So, this is not an area of complacency—far from it. We made a real healthcare gain within our system by changing the way we measure and drive performance within the ambulance system. We've had a review to look at the amber category and what further progress we can make. That's what I'm determined to do and it's what I spent some time on my feet responding to questions on within the last few weeks and months.

Indeed you did, Minister, and I suspect you will carry on needing to respond to those questions until we've got answers that our constituents are wholly satisfied with.

You know how devastating, I know—there's no need for me to tell you how devastating the after-effects off stroke can be. You also know how important it is that that whole pathway, from the emergency call to the actual treatment, is done in a timely manner. There are costs to that, but also there are potentially huge cost savings, because if the treatment is given quickly enough, we're going to have patients who will fully recover, whereas otherwise, they might be permanently dependent on health and social care.

Now the Stroke Association has called on you to set targets from the time of that emergency call to the treatment being delivered. That is being done elsewhere. I'm very pleased to hear you say, and I know it's true, that other Governments are learning from some good things that we're doing here in Wales on healthcare. Is this an example of where you might need to learn from somewhere else? You are prepared to set binding targets for some aspects of services, which is absolutely correct. Will you reconsider your decision not to set, at this point, a binding target for that treatment time, from the emergency call to the actual treatment being delivered, for patients suffering from stroke?

I understand the call that's been made by the Stroke Association; I understand the reason why they made the call. But, again, we've just had a clinically led review of the amber category and it did consider this. The Stroke Association are part of the work that is being done to take that forward. And, again, if the evidence changes, then I'm more than prepared to look again at that evidence and whether it's still the right decision. But at this point in time, it would just be dishonest for me to say that I'm going to look again at a recent review that's taken place when, in the last few months, I've reported to this Chamber on the work that I've already outlined. That does not mean that that is a decision for now and evermore; it means that, at this point, the evidence doesn't support the call that's been made by the Stroke Association. But, as ever, we should be prepared to learn and recognise, when evidence changes, to shift decisions to make sure that we're delivering the right service for people right across the country. 

Brexit Party spokesperson, Caroline Jones.

Diolch, Llywydd. Minister, the outgoing chair of the Swansea Bay University Health Board has said that the LHB's officials are forced to take part in three or four conference calls a day with Welsh Government. He accuses you of micromanaging the health board and getting in the way of sorting out the problems facing the health board. Minister, do you agree with this analysis that your Government is holding the health board back from making improvements to the NHS in my region?

No, I don't share the view of the outgoing chair of the Swansea Bay University Health Board. I think it's important that there is a link, and Members in this place and in committees regularly encourage, if not demand, that I and my officials, take an even greater role in holding parts of the health service to account and intervene on an even more granular level than we do presently. But certainly through the winter, there are regular conference calls with every health board about performance, particularly in the unscheduled care system. There is always going to be a balance about where you intervene and where you ask and where you scrutinise and where you leave trusted parts of the system to progress. It's part of the reason we have an escalation framework that sets out the level of confidence in different parts of our system. But on some of those big key touchstone areas of activity, where it's recognised there are real issues for patients, we do have regular conversations with the health boards, and I don't apologise for that. 

But I would say, though, as we're talking about the outgoing chair of Swansea Bay University Health Board, that during the time of his period in office as a chair, they've had some real challenges to address within the health board and he has been a part of making sure that they do address those challenges. And there is a real improvement trajectory now for Swansea Bay University Health Board and Andrew Davies has real credit to claim for having been part of doing that. We won't always see eye to eye, just as we didn't when he was rather more active in elected politics, but that's part of the business of doing a job like this—not everyone agrees with you, including people who you even share the same party with, as we all know.

Thank you, Minister. Until April of this year, residents of Bridgend fell under that health board. They're now covered by Cwm Taf, which, while still under joint escalation and intervention arrangements, aren't as bad as the former ABMULHB. However, that's not helping patients in Bridgend. Last week, one of my elderly constituents, also a friend, had a stroke and was injured as a result. He waited nearly three hours for an ambulance and he also waited nine hours at the accident and emergency department at the Royal Glamorgan, as the Princess of Wales was full. He's 85 years of age. So, Minister, when can patients living in Bridgend expect to see improvements to the NHS under Cwm Taf?

Cwm Taf Morgannwg, as the new health board, is now responsible for the operation of the health service within Bridgend, and I expect to see phased improvement across every part of our service and not just the Cwm Taf Morgannwg area. Again, if we look at the regular experience of people within our healthcare system, they are seen promptly and compassionately. I was reflecting on a number of events today about where healthcare goes wrong, it has a huge impact on people's lives, both the experience of healthcare and when technically the healthcare goes wrong as well. But also, our healthcare system is a high-quality system and it's part of the reason why, when it doesn't go right, it's thrown into such sharp relief. If the Member wants to write to me, or indeed directly to the health board, to have an investigation into the individual circumstances, I'd be happy to look at it. But I'm of course interested in how we improve the whole system to make sure that fewer and fewer people have the experience that she described and more and more people have the standard experience of high-quality, timely and compassionate care.

Question 3 [OAQ54183] was withdrawn. Question 4—John Griffiths.

It is a central ambition of this Government that everyone in Wales has a fair opportunity to live a healthy life, irrespective of their background or where they live. We will continue to take a whole-Government approach to tackling the root causes of health inequalities.

Minister, one major issue that we have to make further progress in tackling is smoking prevalence in Wales. Thankfully, we have made substantial progress, but, as always, there is more work to do, and it's particularly relevant, I think, to some of our more deprived communities. The recent student health and well-being in Wales survey showed that, of year 11 school pupils, 15 to 16-year-olds, 9 per cent smoke regularly, which has remained more or less static since 2013-14. And in the least affluent areas, in the last four years, smoking prevalence in that age group has risen from 4 per cent to 6 per cent. I know that ASH Wales believes that we need to target action more effectively in our poorer communities and measure progress in terms of those targeted measures on a regular basis. Would you agree that that's one part of the way forward in dealing with these very important issues around health inequalities in Wales?

I'm genuinely interested in not just what the evidence tells us but where there is innovation as well for parts of our healthcare system and the outcomes we deliver and the reality that health inequalities exist in virtually every area of experience and outcomes. I know that ASH have been particularly interested in developing services that are aimed at young people and are effective in getting young people to engage in smoking cessation but equally messages about not taking up smoking in the first place. I know that my officials have regular contact with ASH Wales. And, as I say, I'm always interested about the evidence base that they are developing, and for some of their interventions, we've provided support for some of those in the past, but this will have to be a significant area of activity, because as well as encouraging people to give up smoking, the best port of call, of course, is for us not to take up smoking in the first place. Life lessons and attitudes undertaken before people leave school are a huge important part of that. 

Minister, in Wales, along with the rest of the United Kingdom, there are marked health inequalities between those living in the most deprived communities and those living in the most affluent areas. Childhood obesity is no exception. More than 28 per cent of children living in the most deprived areas are either overweight or obese compared to less than 21 per cent in the least deprived areas. Twice as many children living in Merthyr Tydfil are obese compared to those living in the Vale of Glamorgan. Since tackling childhood obesity lies not only in the remit of the health departments, Minister, what are you doing to encourage combined action across Government to tackle this problem in Wales?

Well, this is, of course, something that we're actively considering with our healthy weight strategy across Wales, and how we use the powers that we have across the Welsh Government in all devolved areas to try to make a real difference—the environment that we live in, the advertising and, indeed, what we can do not just to make unhealthier choices about food and drink more difficult, but actually to positively promote more healthy choices. And I would just say that, given the times that we're in and the leadership contest that I'm not participating in that's taking place at present, one of the candidates is suggesting getting rid of the sugar tax. I don't always agree with what the Conservative Government does—and most of the time I don't—but I actually think introducing the sugar tax was a good thing to do. I do not think there is any evidence to support scrapping the sugar tax being a good thing for helping us to tackle obesity across the United Kingdom. And I hope that those Conservative Members who have a vote in the contest will consider that and the impact of any other future choices that will be made, because it will have a real impact on our families and children here in Wales and not just in other parts of the United Kingdom. 

Yes. The Welsh Government has published 'A Healthier Wales', which sets out our vision and action plan for seamless, sustainable and accessible health and well-being services in our communities.

Well, thank you for that answer, Minister, and I appreciate and applaud the actions that the Welsh Government are taking to actually help people to go back into their homes and back into their communities, because we all know that you can get better in your home if you feel more comfortable, but you have to be safe and you have to be supported. And to do that, you need several things. You've already mentioned community pharmacies as an example of community healthcare services, but there are many others, and resourcing those is one of the issues. We need to ensure that those services are resourced so that, when people do go back, they're able to be supported. 

Now, on many occasions I've had situations where district nurses and community nurses are struggling to face some of the workloads they have, and that then is on top of, perhaps, practices and GP practices merging and having difficulties. Now, you're welcome to come up to the Afan valley to see some of the challenges they are facing in that community, both in GP services and in community services, but what are you going to do to ensure that those services are resourced when there are challenges with GP services as well, so that we don't have one part of the service failing and another part then trying to catch up and deliver what it shouldn't be doing?

That's part of what lies at the heart of our joint approach in 'A Healthier Wales', across health and social care. And if you look at the areas of the transformation fund projects within Aberavon and more broadly, not just in the county of Neath Port Talbot, but across Swansea and Neath Port Talbot as well, you'll see the Our Neighbourhood approach, which is about building on community assets, understanding what is there already to help support people to make different choices. That's not just about the health service; it's about all the different assets within a neighbourhood. That's being led within the Neath Port Talbot part of the health board and regional partnership board are. But also, all of the seven primary care clusters are working together on a whole-system approach. So it is about positively looking and how they understand what they could and should do differently—not just GPs, not just the multidisciplinary team grouped around each of the practices, but the other community services that exist. 

On the general point, I'd be happy, as we're going to look through progress within the transformation fund, to consider a visit to one of those clusters in your patch to see the work they're actually doing on the ground. 

I was very interested in what you had to say then about community assets, Minister. Your dementia action plan for 2018-22 states that the Welsh Government will get local authorities and health boards to work with local communities and the third sector organisations in them to encourage them to make services accessible to people with dementia, as well as their families and their carers. Can you just confirm that health boards and councils are doing that in my region, and how, at this stage, services look different for families affected by dementia?

Well, we've had regular conversations, and I'll be reporting back on the implementation of the dementia strategy. I was at the recent cross-party group as well, and my officials attend that too, to be able to set out what's working. So, that investment will be happening over time, and a new framework will be coming out on allied healthcare professionals, as one of the big parts of the plan is the role of allied healthcare professionals in delivering services and linking people together. So, I think you will see progress being made in every part of the country, not just in the Swansea Bay University Health Board area, together with its local authority partners. And, of course, we've got an assurance group that includes people living with dementia themselves, to confirm whether those services are being delivered progressively and whether they're seeing that difference on the ground.

John Griffiths. 

I haven't got a supplementary on this, Llywydd. 

Okay. Question 6, [OAQ54146], has been withdrawn. Question 7, Mick Antoniw.

Thank you. The Welsh Government has been working across portfolios to identify action that can be taken to reduce the prevalence of problem gambling and the impact it has upon both health and our wider society. We continue to hold discussions to determine how existing services can be used to support problem gamblers.

Minister, thank you for that answer. There is growing recognition across the whole of the UK and further afield of the epidemic emerging of gambling addiction, partly as a result of the massive expansion of online gambling. And it was at least encouraging to notice that within NHS England, 14 clinics are being set up with a view to providing addiction advice, but what is noticeable is, of course, that is partly funded, I understand, by the rather meagre voluntary contributions from the gambling industry itself via the Gambling Commission. I was wondering what steps may have been taken or could be taken by the Welsh Government to ensure that there is proper funding from those funds that are raised in Wales for gambling support, and whether you have any plans to meet with or to approach the Gambling Commission to ensure that, within Wales, there is equal support and provision of this much-needed area of gambling addiction support.  

Yes, I am aware of the announcements that have been made for the specialist provision. We already, actually, do refer some people into specialist provision across the border. I agree with the broad point the Member makes that, actually, a voluntary levy I think is unlikely to deliver the sort of responsible behaviour that we wish to see or, indeed, the resource. That isn't a view that is only held by people in our party; you'll recall that the then Minister, Tracey Crouch, resigned on a point of principle because the Government were not proposing to take forward measures on fixed-odds betting terminals. They subsequently did that, and, again, that was work across parties, with Carolyn Harris from my own party and others doing the work. So, there is a broader recognition in more than one part of the UK and in more than one party that this is a real challenge across society. 

There is work that is going on between the different health departments. The chief medical officer continues to lead work on this, following his report last year. There's regular engagement between him and both GambleAware and the Gambling Commission. I think it might be helpful for those Members—and I know they're in more than one party—who are interested in an update, if I were to arrange for the chief medical officer to provide an update on the work that's already been done and what that looks like, and then have a further report back on any further progress that is potentially being made on the issue of a compulsory levy, because my own personal view is that, without a compulsory levy, we won't see the sort of behavioural change of people who provide gambling opportunities and environments and, indeed, the resource that should come in to deal with the real harm that is caused.FootnoteLink  

I welcome the action that's been taken to date but, of course, we can always do more, and I would absolutely want to see some more of the investment from the gambling industry, via the Gambling Commission, coming into Wales in order to develop our services and treatment centres for those with addictions. I hosted the annual conference with Beat the Odds last week on problem gambling, and it was focusing very much on young people and children in that particular forum this year. Can I ask what specific services might be available for children and young people who are actively now gambling through the gaming system online in games such as Star Wars and FIFA, where they have these sorts of loop boxes that give very, very terrible odds, and they're actually resulting in some young children gambling many thousands and losing many thousands of pounds of their family's income? I think it's a growing feature of the gambling landscape. It's something that now Disney is even cottoning on to. That's unacceptable. We need to get to grips with these issues. Can I ask whether there are going to be tailored services for children and young people within the ambit of the services that are being prepared and developed by the Welsh Government and, if so, how are we going to communicate the availability of those and the dangers of gambling to young people in our society?  

Actually, the new clinics have a particular focus on children and young people, which are being provided, but the challenge goes back to Mick Antoniw's point about the real capacity to do so, because the reason why games are being monetised in this way is exactly that: it's a way of raising income. And part of the issues that I raised with my colleague Julie James in her previous role was that we wrote jointly to the Gambling Commission about the way that the ability to gamble and adverts promoting gambling are associated with activities that are deliberately targeted at children and young people, not just from the world of online gaming but mainstream activities like sport as well. The number of football teams, for example, that have a high-profile gambling sponsor and the adverts that take place well before the watershed, I think, are a real problem. They're contributing to the problem and not helping us to address this, and I'm pleased to see there's some cross-party agreement on this because we're not where we need to be right now, in my view.

Yes. I'm happy to confirm that progress with the construction of the new Grange university hospital that I authorised is on track, on budget and due to open in the spring of 2021. It will provide a 470-bed hospital for the population of south-east Wales.

A very to-the-point answer there, Minister. Thank you for that. I've had a couple of visits to the hospital, one with you. It's an impressive building, and I'm pleased to hear that it's on track. A couple of questions: since the building was commissioned, the Welsh Government has declared the climate emergency. There is an obligation on all public buildings to keep their carbon footprints down as low as possible, so I wonder if you could tell us a little bit about the renewables side of the building and how it is meeting those obligations. Secondly, one feature of the hospital that makes it stand out amongst other similar buildings is its extensive and stunning landscaped grounds, which date back to the time of the Llanfrechfa Grange House. Those grounds are seen as integral to part of the rehabilitation of people who have been suffering from illnesses and operations at the hospital. Can you tell us how you plan to—I was going to say 'to build upon', but that's the wrong expression, isn't it? [Laughter.] How do you plan to make the most of those landscaped grounds in terms of keeping the building as renewable as possible? I think that there is an opportunity here for tree planting and to really make a statement with those grounds to make sure that the whole site operates not just as a rehabilitation centre for people but also as a carbon sink?

Well, I'm delighted to confirm not only the work being done on the nearby gardens—there's a voluntary group doing that work—but that it will be a much more efficient building than most of the NHS estate. Of course, much of the NHS estate was created several years ago, in the past. It's a building being built to the highest architectural standards, and there will be a significant saving in both energy efficiency as well as the modern heat and power plant on site as well.

When it comes to tree planting, funnily enough, it was a question that I asked on one of my visits, and there will be significant tree planting in and around the Grange university hospital. That's part of the view that people want to have as well as some of the well-noted challenges. I saw comrade Melding on the roof next to beehives in this place, and you can expect to see the deliberate planting of blossom and other trees and plants within the grounds to deal with exactly the point he mentioned.

Antibiotic-resistant infections are not currently recorded, but work to do so is under way as reduction in the numbers is an ambition of the jointly agreed new UK antimicrobial resistance strategy that all four nations of the UK have signed up to. The level of bacterial resistance to antimicrobials is monitored in Wales on an ongoing basis, and regular reports will be published.

Thank you, Minister. There's been a 44 per cent increase in syphilis in the last year and a 32 per cent increase in gonorrhoea. And what concerns me most about that, talking to sexual health experts, is that a significant proportion of the presenting infections are the antibiotic-resistant forms of those. I appreciate that you have accepted the sexual health review recommendations to reduce the transmission of sexually transmitted infections, and I just wondered how much that task is hampered by the level of antibiotic-resistant versions of this, because, obviously, in the past, this was something that people died of. With antibiotics, people are able to survive and continue to live normal lives. We are in danger of going back to the nineteenth century.

Yes, you're correct, and within the last two years for which we have figures, there's been a 79 per cent increase in syphilis and a 47 per cent increase in gonorrhoea. There is concern across the world, in particular when it comes to gonorrhoea, that there are infections that are becoming resistant to antibiotics. Now, we've not seen that strain within Wales yet. Chlamydia infections remain stable. The challenge still is about behaviour, things that we are in control of, and that's part of the challenge about the new sexual health strategy, about our engagement with people who are most at risk and how we have a conversation about education as opposed to resolving this at the treatment end. The chief medical officer has asked Public Health Wales to consider what more needs to be done to minimise the risk posed by these infections and a number of recommendations are being taken forward and they'll be considered at the next sexual health programme board, and I would, of course, make sure that, as there is more progress to update from that sexual health programme board, I'll provide a written statement to Members to make sure you're all sighted on improvement.

I think the World Health Organization has said that antibiotic resistance could be one of the major health challenges we face, as common infections once again become common killers if we don't get this right and there are fewer new drugs coming on board. One thing we could do is to encourage people, instead of going to the doctor in search of an antibiotic for a common cold or a sore throat or something, to first go and see their pharmacist, because that, probably, will lead to better treatment and will avoid the use of antibiotics when they're not appropriate.

I completely agree and it's part of our challenge: we're generally trying to persuade people that they don't need to go to the doctor and to come away with a set of pills to have a good service. Often, it is about persuading people there are different options, including self-care, and different ways to access healthcare as well. With the common ailments service that we've introduced, in just the first five months of this year, approximately 20,000 people have visited pharmacies across Wales as part of that service. Around 80 per cent of those people would otherwise have gone to see their GP, and, more than that, the pilot within Betsi Cadwaladr on the sore throat treat and test service is again a real opportunity to roll out exactly the sort of practice that you recognised. It goes back to the question earlier from Paul Davies about our community pharmacy services and building on them—sorry, it was Neil Hamilton's question, with a supplementary from your party colleague, but there is, again, general agreement that it's the right thing to do. There's much more gain to be made from doing it, and, actually, much better access for the public to healthcare services. 

Thank you, Minister. 

No topical questions were selected. 

And so the 90-second statements are next and the first statement is from Huw Irranca-Davies.

Diolch, Llywydd. This is Co-operatives Fortnight, organised by Co-operatives UK, bringing together, for two weeks of mass co-operation, the workers, the members, the rebels, the citizens, the residents, the owners, the sharers and the millions of co-operators across the UK to mark Co-operatives Fortnight and celebrate—this statement being part of it—what can be achieved when we co-operate.

In Leeds, the Digital Cooperative Development Consortium Ltd will host a weekend digital hack for tech co-operators. In Northampton, there's a film screening of the Pioneers, the inspirational story of the birth of co-operation more than 175 years ago, and a marketplace featuring local co-operatives. In Plymouth, as part of the fortnight and Community Energy Fortnight, Plymouth Energy Community are hosting a Bee—as in the buzzy bee—Solar party at their community-owned solar array. And, in Scotland, Scotmid Co-op colleagues will hold 13 litter picks right across Scotland, supplying litter picking equipment to local communities and helping 1,500 groups to get involved in keeping their surroundings beautiful. And, in Cardiff, Wales Co-operative Centre hosted a lunch for co-op leaders to celebrate the positive impact of co-op businesses and explore new working partnerships, where it was great to hear the announcement of £3 million of EU funds supporting a new project that will help create new social businesses across west Wales and the Valleys, with the Social Business Wales New Start initiative led by the Wales Co-operative Centre aiming to create 200 social businesses over the next three years. This is the power of co-operation and what we can achieve when we work together, and I'm proud to say that this National Assembly has helped us celebrate Co-operatives Fortnight 2019.

Mike Hedges.

Diolch. Swansea: 50 years a city. This morning, I was in Tabernacle Chapel in Morriston celebrating, in the presence of the Prince of Wales, the fiftieth anniversary of Swansea being made a city. Fifty years to today, and two days after his investiture, the Prince of Wales, on his tour of Wales, he visited Swansea. On the steps of the Guildhall he announced that Swansea was going to be designated a city. Swansea was the second Welsh town to be granted city status, although it had to wait until 15 December before it formally received its letters patent from the Queen.

On that day, the Prince of Wales made a return journey to the new city to grant the charter to the people and the civic dignitaries of Swansea at the Brangwyn Hall. Two immediate changes occurred: at the first opportunity, Swansea Town Football Club changed its name to Swansea City; the mayor of Swansea became lord mayor, joining 23 English cities and Cardiff in Wales in being able to use the title 'lord mayor'.

Earlier this year I was pleased to attend the council's launch of its fiftieth anniversary of Swansea becoming a city, and a lot has been done in the city to celebrate that major achievement. And it's had a mindset change: we're no longer an 'ugly, lovely town' but now an outward-looking and vibrant city.

John Griffiths.

This coming Saturday, 6 July, the Maindee Festival will take place in Newport. It is a major event and a highlight of the summer and cultural life in my constituency. The festival association was founded in 1997 and it has organised and raised funds for annual events ever since. It begins with a spectacular parade in which everyone gets dressed up and joins the giant figures, bands of musicians and dancers, ending at the venue in the primary school grounds.

Maindee is an ethnically diverse community, constantly changing and evolving but coming together around a day to celebrate difference and common humanity with art, music and dance, food and drink. In these times of worrying division all over the world and close to home, opportunities to embrace unity in our communities, break down barriers and aid social cohesion are crucial. This year's theme of 'Making Maindee', which aims to recognise everything that makes our neighbourhood so vibrant and rich, could not be more appropriate.

I pay tribute to the charity and its hard working and talented committee and volunteers who give so much time and energy to make the day a success, engaging people across cultures. And, of course, I pay tribute to our wonderfully diverse community, who take part and go along in ever greater numbers year on year.

The next item is the debate on a Member's legislative proposal, and that is on health service management, and the motion is from Helen Mary Jones.

Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd, and it's my pleasure and privilege to present this legislative proposal to the Senedd today. It has been a bit of a habit amongst politicians in Wales sometimes to say, 'We have too many managers in the NHS; they're not doing their jobs properly'. I've probably been guilty of that in the past myself, but the truth is that we will not deliver the kinds of services that our constituents—every single one of our constituents—want and need unless we have a service that is effectively managed.

Now, it's also absolutely true that we have many excellent managers working at all levels in our NHS in Wales, and they strive and succeed in planning and delivering, with their clinical colleagues, excellent services. But there can be none of us in this Chamber who are not aware of the widely shared concerns about capacity, sometimes about competence, and certainly about consistency of performance in the management of our services. And there are very valid concerns about accountability. So, this is why I propose to us today a Bill on health service management. What exactly we might call it—an NHS accountability and transparency Bill—that could be for further debate. But the purpose of this Bill, its main purpose, would be to establish a professional body for NHS managers in Wales. Now, this has been portrayed in some sections of the press and by some responding to the debate as an attack on the service. It is definitely not that. What it is actually doing is acknowledging the huge importance of managers to the effectiveness of the service, and, if we gave them a proper professional body that registered them, we would be putting their contribution on a par with their clinical colleagues, and I think that definitely deserves consideration.

So, I'm proposing a role for this professional body to set core professional competencies for people in management and administration at all levels, that these competencies should be value based. If you're training as a nurse, the very first thing you get is training in the values that the service expects for you. We don't currently offer that consistently to those administering and managing the services.

We would need core competencies set at every level, and those competencies would be based on this value-based training. A professional body could require continuous professional development to ensure that those managing our services are able to keep up to date with all the requirements on them and all the developments that go around them. Some, particularly middle management managers, say to me that they are overwhelmed, sometimes, by change. They don't resent the expectations of Welsh Government of the service that they're going to deliver, but they need to be empowered to do that properly.

So, this is about valuing those who manage our NHS. It's about giving them the tools to do the job and it's about ensuring that everybody else knows what can be expected in terms of competence, knowledge and skills from people managing at different levels in our service. Now, of course, one aspect of this registration would be that, if a manager persistently failed, or if a manager was having trouble doing their job, their professional body would, as it would with a nurse or a doctor, step in and prescribe advice, prescribe training, prescribe support. But, if that was not successful, in the end, this professional body would have the right to strike a manager off and say, 'You are not a fit-and-proper person to undertake the management of our service'. That is not the main function of the legislation that I'm proposing, but it is a sanction, and it would end a pattern that we've seen—and I have no intention today, Presiding Officer, to name names—of persons in very senior roles in parts of our service failing to manage those services effectively, disappearing for a while and then popping up somewhere else managing another aspect of the service and not doing it well. That is totally unfair; it's totally unfair to the patients, it's totally unfair to the clinical staff, but it is also totally unfair to those working in management in the service who want to be able to do that effectively.

I realise that this is a huge piece of work—this is not something that could be achieved by a private Member's Bill—but just because it's a huge piece of work does not mean to say that we shouldn't set out to do it. I remember being told in this place that it would be impossible and much too complex to register healthcare support workers. Well, we're doing that now. And I think we need to be equally ambitious around what we offer to those who manage our services.

I would also see this legislation properly establishing the independence of Healthcare Inspectorate Wales. Members will remember that the committee, back in 2014, was very concerned that it hadn't received reassurances about the role of the inspectorate, that it wasn't suitably independent. Now, I know the Minister has got some long-term plans to do something about this, but I would remind him that he said that the NHS quality Bill that would be coming forward would address this issue of HIW independence and the draft we have before us does not.

My proposed legislation would also place a duty of candour, not just on organisations, which, of course, is commendable, but on individuals. Where we most need that duty of candour is where people need to be empowered to speak up within organisations that will not exercise their duty of candour. And simply putting that responsibility on organisations will not deliver what I'm sure the Minister intends. We also need a robust, consistent, transparent complaints system that is truly independent and trusted for patients and we need to look again at how successful our whistleblowing policies are, because my experience and my postbag tells me that they are not.

This is a matter of the utmost seriousness. In some circumstances, this is a matter of life and death. I believe that this is a problem that needs a radical solution. I believe the people who work in our service deserve to have their professionalism recognised, deserve to be properly trained, deserve to know, through a set of core competencies, exactly what is expected of them. And they need to know too that they will be held accountable for delivering the planning and the management of our services in coherence with that core set of competencies.

I look forward, Llywydd, to hearing other Members' comments in this debate. I am not expecting—although, of course, I would be delighted—the Minister to say here that he will take on this legislation, but I do hope that he will feel able to acknowledge that there are serious issues that need to be addressed and that we can explore on a cross-party basis in this place to ensure that we have the best, most transparent management system that our NHS needs and deserves.

Thank you. Can I just remind speakers that it is three minutes for your contributions to this proposal? Angela Burns.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I'd like to thank Helen Mary Jones for bringing forward this proposal for a Bill on health service management. I can assure you that the Welsh Conservatives would not only support your proposals, but seek to strengthen and increase some of the proposed Bill's provisions, because it ties in very much with a five-point plan for health that we announced in March. Three of the points that we covered have been partly encapsulated in your Bill, and we'd like to take them forward further.

Because we called for there also to be a radical overhaul of Healthcare Inspectorate Wales to make it entirely independent of Welsh Government and to give it new powers to intervene quickly when problems are identified. By making it truly independent of Government, as Helen Mary proposes, I believe we could achieve this objective, but I would ask the Member for Mid and West Wales to also consider a financial provision, because we believe that HIW's budget must be trebled in order for it to be able to expand its programme of unannounced inspections and to ensure that requirements for improvement are implemented.

The evidence session the health committee held this morning with Cardiff and Vale University Health Board bears this out. It was an unannounced visit by HIW to the University Hospital of Wales emergency unit and assessment unit that highlighted unsafe standards of care, poor medication practices and inappropriate staffing levels, amongst other areas that needed addressing. Yet, despite insistence that senior managers visit the departments, the health board did not seem to recognise that the emergency unit and assessment unit needed additional support, and to paraphrase what the chief executive said today, people see the situation or the problem so much, they no longer recognise it as such, and we need an independent organisation that can come in.

Furthermore, I think the proposed professional body for managers is, again, something that we'd be very supportive of. Again, we suggested this in our idea, but we'd like to see it go further and become an NHS leadership council that requires registration, and those deemed incompetent would be removed. As you mentioned earlier, there are people—I've got here six examples of people who've repopped up in the system, having done an absolutely shocking job somewhere, and they've managed to survive and go on again.

We totally support a new, robust complaints system. Let's again remind ourselves of another health committee when the chief executive of Cwm Taf said, and I quote,

'To be absolutely frank, the extent of the feedback from the families, which has been the most distressing element of this, was a complete shock, even to me, and I sign off complaints in the organisation.'

Really.

Finally, may I just say you've made an absolutely interesting point on the duty of candour? It should apply to individuals as well as organisations. We've been calling for a duty of candour for six years, since it was introduced in England after the Mid Staffs scandal and in light of Robbie's law. However, the health Minister at the time, Mark Drakeford, implied it was not necessary for Wales. He said in 2013,

'The redress regulations passed here by the Assembly in 2011 place a duty of openness on health boards now. In a sense, a duty of candour is already implicit, if not explicit, in those regulations.'

We've seen that it doesn't work. We would absolutely support you, and I would like to work with you in bringing forward such a Bill to the floor of this Chamber.

May I congratulate Helen Mary Jones for taking the lead on this? I fully support her intentions. There’s no doubt that systems in the health service are under a huge strain—not enough staff, not enough resources, not enough beds, and nurses and doctors being extended to the very limits to provide an acceptable service most of the time, an excellent service often, but on occasion, the quality of the service does fall short and mistakes can happen, almost inevitably, in a system under such strain.

There are a few points that need to be made. The duty of candour is challenged when lawyers become involved, and even apologising under such circumstances can be interpreted as an admission of fault, and the honesty of the nurse or doctor then will take them to a court of law. And when a nurse or a doctor does decide to speak up to highlight some weakness in the system, then they should be truly protected. Very often, as a whistleblower, they will be persecuted by managers, and will face criticism from colleagues, and they may even be suspended from work or see their careers ended for raising those concerns. The expert who blew the whistle on the deaths of babies in Bristol in the heart operation scandal over 20 years ago—ultimately, that specialist had to move to Australia in order to find work and to continue with his career, just for being a whistleblower.

And the second point: we need to recognise failings in the system that can lead to individual mistakes when doctors and nurses have to do more than one crucial thing at the same time because of pressures of work—not always the doctor or the nurse being persecuted, but looking at the responsibilities of managers too, as Helen Mary has stated, because everybody has a responsibility here. Everyone—doctors, nurses and managers—should be treated the same. They should be registered by their professional bodies, and they should face being struck off and going into to a court of law to face very serious charges where necessary. That’s what faces every doctor and every nurse now; that is what responsibility for patient looks like. Managers should face the same.

Ultimately, we need a no-fault compensation system as a nation when things do go wrong, or some unexpected event happens to a patient. This happens in a number of other countries because a patient doesn’t necessarily have to access an expensive lawyer, the patient wouldn’t require a court of law, and wouldn’t need to prove blame, because, on occasion, it’s a sheer case of being unlucky—there is no-one to blame. No-blame compensation takes away many of the costs, and all of the compensation goes to the patient. Support the motion.

I welcome Helen Mary's proposals for NHS management and I support her Bill proposal wholeheartedly. As I've said many times in this Chamber, we must ensure health service managers abide by the same obligations as clinical staff. Clinicians are covered by duties of care placed upon them by their royal colleges and the various professional bodies. Managers are an essential part of our modern NHS, and they can often play a role in ensuring the quality of care provided to patients. It is therefore essential that NHS managers belong to a professional body that will help them ensure that there is no room for poor performance or unsafe practices in health service management.

I also welcome measures in the proposed Bill to place a truly independent Healthcare Inspectorate Wales at the heart of a complaints system that puts patients first and ensure they and their families are supported throughout. Placing an explicit duty of candour on NHS managers will hopefully form part of the code of conduct set by the new professional body, ensuring that in future mistakes are seen as learning opportunities and not something to be covered up and evaded. Helen Mary's proposed Bill recognises that our NHS is just as dependent upon managers and administrators as it is upon clinical staff.

We must ensure that those managers and administrators are bound by the same legal duties to the patient as clinical staff. We will never totally eliminate mistakes—we must accept that—but we can ensure that we eradicate unsafe practices and do not reward poor performance. For our NHS to thrive, every part must function well. NHS managers are there to ensure clinical staff have the necessary tools to treat their patients. This proposed Bill will help ensure that healthcare managers have the necessary skills to support clinical staff in a truly patient-first NHS. It has the full support of my group and I look forward to helping Helen Mary in any way I can to ensure its swift passage into law. Diolch yn fawr.

I also support the introduction of this Bill and thank the Member for introducing it. We're all familiar with the horror stories. Babies have died because of NHS mismanagement. Thousands of young people have had their lives put on hold because metal health waiting lists have quadrupled. Patients have died waiting hours for an emergency ambulance to arrive. Lives have been hugely blighted for people waiting longer than they should for surgery, and cancers have grown while the capacity to diagnose and treat them in this country has shrunk. It's not the fault of the clinicians and the front-line staff that this has happened in Wales, but it is someone's fault, and if this Government is to be believed when they deny culpability for the increase in needless deaths and suffering caused by poor responses and outcomes, then it has to follow that it's the fault of certain NHS managers. 

Managing finite resource in an organisation that has to respond to what could be considered an uncontrollable demand is no doubt difficult, but brain surgery and complex cancer treatment is no doubt more difficult. Yet, the highly trained, registered and licensed brain surgeon is subject to the decisions of an unlicensed, unregistered NHS manager whose role requires no statutory qualification whatsoever. The decisions of some NHS managers have caused some serious problems, as I've discussed, yet we don't know of any NHS manager who has had so much as one day's pay docked, no-one sacked, no-one told to publicly account for their fatal failings. 

For years, I have supported calls for NHS managers to be registered or licensed in a similar fashion as those clinicians who are subject to the NHS managers' decisions. Too many times, we see that managers who fail in one public sector setting simply leave with a big pay-off and then pop up somewhere else in the public sector to wreak their incompetence on another group of unsuspecting taxpayers. Our own experience in this place shows that without a change in the rules of engagement we can't expect any significant improvement. For example, how many times have we in the opposition cornered the health Minister Vaughan Gething about the continued abomination that is Betsi Cadwaladr health board and asked him if anyone has been sacked for their huge failures or the ruining of people's lives, only to see him squirm and almost apologise for his own inability to do anything about it? 

This Bill stops short of a licensing system for NHS managers but it's a big step forward in the right direction. Many people would be surprised that there's not a professional body for an occupation as important as NHS management, yet there's a professional body for things like estate agents, advertisers and football coaches et cetera. An independent health inspectorate that's not full of political appointments is also vital. It's long past time that NHS managers should be held to account for the deaths and suffering that their bad decisions cause. It's clear that, since Vaughan Gething doesn't have the skills to solve the problems by himself, we now have to build the solutions into Welsh law. Thank you.

Can I now call the Minister for Health and Social Services, Vaughan Gething?

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I do want to acknowledge at the outset the concerns and issues that have been raised by a number of speakers in their contributions, and that lie behind the motion and the proposal, but I do believe that the draft Health and Social Care (Quality and Engagement) (Wales) Bill addresses a number of the points in the motion. Of course, we have just started the scrutiny process on that piece of legislation. I had the opportunity to appear before the Finance Committee today. The passage of that draft Bill through the Assembly will provide an opportunity for these ideas to be debated and discussed, including opportunities for amendments and improvements to be made. Quality is the central concept underpinning the provisions within the Bill. By placing duties at an organisational level, the Bill takes a whole-system approach to quality improvement.

The motion today does include proposals to strengthen the independence of Healthcare Inspectorate Wales. A strong regulator able to act independently of the NHS and Government is an important part of our quality landscape. The arrangements currently in place ensure the inspectorate can and does operate independently. As the health Minister, I am not involved in its oversight or in setting its budget. It is responsible for setting its own programme of work within the broad scope of its remit letter. These are essential factors in ensuring that HIW can and does speak out when it needs to. We do, though, recognise that the existing legislative framework for Healthcare Inspectorate Wales is complicated and does need reform. In the interim, there is a need to incrementally develop HIW's capacity to ensure it is equipped to respond to a future legislative framework. I've made available over £1 million of extra support for the organisation to develop its capacity.

The motion calls for a more transparent system of complaints. We have no evidence of a need to change the 'Putting Things Right' arrangements. A review by Keith Evans found it to be fit for purpose, and his recommendations focused on the need to ensure that the application was consistent. The 'Putting Things Right' arrangements do include the NHS redress scheme, which is innovative and unique within the UK. Claims worth less than £25,000 are dealt with under the scheme, which is far quicker than the litigation process and operates at no cost to complainants.

The Bill that I've referred to will establish a new citizens' voice body and I'm sure there will be lots of opportunities for comment and questioning about that through its passage. That new citizens' voice body will support people or their representatives if they need to make a complaint about health or social care. Additional staff will be funded to enable the new body to extend its services to provide a complaints service, advice and assistance to a wider range of individuals.

The Bill proposes a statutory duty of candour at an organisational level. This will mean that all staff, including managers, will be subject to the duty. There will be training for all staff, at all levels of organisations, whether clinicians or not. And that training will be done in partnership with clinicians. Virtually every professional group within the service is keen to sit down with us, to work on the guidance for the duty of candour, to ensure that it is delivered effectively by individuals and organisations across Wales.

I think perhaps the most important points in the conversation today have been about the challenge of having a blame culture, and the cross between blame and accountability. Now, I recognise that, if we are to deliberately move our healthcare system towards a system more properly based on learning and reflection—if that's not to be an aspiration, but something that is made real—we need to see culture change within organisations. And that applies to clinicians as well as managers. And part of my concern is the language around this potential proposal, which does sound rather more like the ability to get rid of managers, rather than to learn and reflect when things go wrong.

Earlier today, I was at the launch of the maternity vision for Wales. And, again, there, within the maternity profession in Wales, there is real reflection on the things that have gone wrong in different parts of the country—obviously, in the former Cwm Taf area—but there's also real pride in the deliberate choices that they are making, and they are recognised as making within the UK and further afield. And I would not want to see a new system of conduct introduced that moved us away from the ability to learn and reflect. And so, the proposals for a new compulsory regulatory body for NHS managers would introduce a level of cost and complexity, but of course that's always the case when introducing new measures. But we should recall the experiences of nurses in the care homes regulations, when having to attend to two regulators. That did not improve our system, it did not make a difference to those members of staff or the people they're working with or for.

We would need to have detailed finance and policy consideration to reflect the diverse nature of the workforce and their roles, including the point the First Minister made yesterday about defining who or what a manager is to be caught within the ambit of a new regulatory body, whether it is prospective regulation, where everyone must appear on a register to be able to work, or whether it is a retrospective test as to whether someone is a fit-and-proper person. Those are issues that the potential mover of the legislation would need to address, and that balance of responsibility between the employer versus the regulator, and how we ensure that those healthcare professionals, who are the great majority of managers within our system, how they are dealt with, and indeed the mobility of the workforce across borders if we were to introduce this requirement in Wales alone. The British Medical Association, for example, have called in the past for a UK-wide approach to this issue. I'm not persuaded on the case for compulsory regulation for managers, but I'm happy to listen to detailed proposals that address the very real and practical challenges.

Thank you. I call on Helen Mary to reply to the debate.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I only have two minutes to respond, so I can't possibly respond to every single point that people have raised. But I'm very grateful indeed for the level of support there has been across the Chamber, and I'm also grateful, actually, to the Minister for acknowledging that this is an attempt to address issues that are real and are meaningful, and for his willingness to look at more detailed proposals.

I want to touch on a couple of points that Angela Burns raised. I think the financial provision for HIW is absolutely crucial. I'm not sure that you deal with that in legislation though, though there may be some ways to do that. And I absolutely support what you say about registration involving the right to, potentially, remove somebody. But I want to challenge the Minister and say that I was very clear in my contribution that that's not where I'm starting from. What I'm starting from is empowering people to do their jobs properly, and only having to come back to them, and deal with not doing the job properly, as a last resort, as is the same for doctors, nurses, and other clinical professionals.

Nobody will be surprised to hear me say that I agree with everything that Dai has said. In the context of this Bill, I think, crucially, moving to a proper no-fault compensation system is, in the end, the only way that we will enable professionals to be able to admit mistakes and learn from them. And an equity of treatment for managers and clinical staff is crucial.

The Minister's Bill is not entirely useless, and we will, of course, seek to amend it, but it doesn't address the bulk of the concerns. I do believe we need to regulate our managers, particularly to stop them appearing, disappearing and reappearing when things have gone wrong. We will, of course, co-operate through the Bill's progress, but we need to do more.

Now, I happen to believe that we do have the ability and capacity. We have enough bright people in Wales to provide really effective management of our public services, but we're not providing them with the training and the structure to enable them to do that. I will work with Members across this Chamber to seek to move this agenda forward. We may perhaps consider, for example, a cross-party group on public service accountability that could address some of these issues.

I'm very grateful for the opportunity to raise these matters here today. Some of the feedback that's come back to me, very clearly, from, actually, managerial staff is that they are glad to know that people know that everything isn't all right and that they're taking it seriously. I look forward to co-operating on this agenda to deliver the best management and the best outcomes for patients.

Thank you. The proposal is to note the proposal. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay, therefore, we defer voting on this item until voting time.

Before I call the next item on the agenda, many of you will know that there has been a fatal incident on our rail network, involving two members of staff. I therefore agreed that the Deputy Minister will make a short statement, before the debate on the committee report. Lee Waters.

Thank you very much, Dirprwy Lywydd. Earlier today, a Great Western Railway train struck two people between Port Talbot and Bridgend at Margam. The Welsh Government, and I'm sure the entire National Assembly, is deeply shocked by this tragic incident involving railway workers and our thoughts are with their families, their friends and their colleagues. I know this will send shockwaves through the whole industry and my thanks go to the emergency services and all those involved in the response.

The impact and the ramifications of this incident will reverberate across the rail industry. No-one goes to work to lose their lives. The incident now needs to be investigated, its causes understood and necessary measures put in place so that the appropriate lessons are learnt. It's testimony to how rare an incident like this is—that people lose their lives on the railways—that it's hard to understand how this could have happened this morning just 20 or so miles away from us.

Network Rail, Great Western Railway and Transport for Wales will be working to advise customers on alternative arrangements for travel. Customers should check via social media online for the latest travel advice. Diolch yn fawr.

Thank you, Deputy Minister.

We now move to the debate on the Economy, Infrastructure and Skills Committee report on 'The Future Development of Transport for Wales' and I call on the Chair of the committee to move that motion. Russell George.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer, and I would like to associate my own comments with the comments of the Deputy Minister. I think we're all saddened by the tragic incident involving rail workers this morning, but I'm sure that all Members here would want to pass on our thoughts and condolences to the families who are involved.

Deputy Presiding Officer, I move the motion in my name. After reporting on the rail franchise and south Wales metro in June 2017, it was a natural next step for the committee to take a closer look at Transport for Wales’s governance arrangements. Back in 2017, we had at that time said that while arrangements were appropriate at that time, they would need to change in the future. So, in this inquiry, we looked at how other transport delivery bodies worked and listened to the concerns of Welsh stakeholders. Our report highlights the unusual way that Transport for Wales was set up—as a wholly owned subsidiary of Welsh Government—and that this decision has created some confusion for stakeholders.

I'll give you an example of this. Shortly after we started our inquiry, the Welsh Government launched a consultation on legislative proposals for public transport. But it was Transport for Wales that engaged directly with stakeholders on developing the White Paper, not the Welsh Government. So the lines of responsibility for policy development and for operational delivery have seemed blurred, and after the confusion, I think there is some confusion there, and I don't think that that is at all surprising. The Welsh Government tells us that Transport for Wales is a wholly owned subsidiary of the Welsh Ministers, but at the same time that there is a distinct separation between the Welsh Government and TfW, allowing TfW to make independent operational decisions. It is notable that in front of us today, we have a response from the Welsh Government to some of our recommendations, and a separate response from TfW to others.

This particular report focused on the governance of Transport for Wales itself, not the performance of TfW rail services. Despite some difficulties and some teething problems with autumn rail disruption, which the committee has reported on separately, many transport stakeholders have seemed encouraged by Transport for Wales's initial engagement with them on a one-to-one basis, which I think is positive. However, the need for much better transparency and engagement, and clearer lines of accountability, were key recommendations. While transport stakeholders were developing a better understanding of Transport for Wales through direct contact with them, it was not being communicated clearly enough to the public.

There is, I think, much to welcome in Transport for Wales's response to the report, such as the commitment to creating an advisory panel to give customers, stakeholders and interested groups the opportunity to advise TfW on its activities. TfW also says it will publish a high-level summary of its communications plan for 2019-20, but it would be helpful to know when we could expect to see that plan.

We also made a number of recommendations to the Welsh Government and Transport for Wales about publishing an organisational chart; being clearer about the role played by consultants; ensuring its board is representative and diverse; publishing a complete register of interests of its board members and directors; and demonstrating a strong and open partnership approach to engagement with trade unions. The committee was concerned by evidence from two trade unions about a lack of partnership working. TfW’s chief executive made a commitment to listen to the unions' concerns, and the response to recommendation 11 describes TfW’s

'keenness to work with all partners and formalise any agreements as soon as possible.' 

This is not, of course, the same as saying that agreements are in place. So, I think further progress is needed in that regard.

Transport for Wales's response to recommendation 3, unfortunately I think, misses the point. The committee asked to see an organisational chart published for the whole organisation, not just the board. Transport for Wales says publishing details of its senior team is in line with practice elsewhere, including Transport for London. But Transport for London's transparency strategy extends far beyond publishing board members' biographies. It also publishes a much more substantial organisational chart with details of staff roles and salary bands for senior staff, as well as Transport for London's board members. Transport for Wales's proposals to publish details of contracts of over £25,000 on a quarterly basis may help a bit, I think, to understand the role of consultants, but in light of concerns about the significant use of consultants, the response I don't think goes far enough.

We do welcome the gender balance on TfW’s board and the Minister’s commitment to ensuring that the next chair of TfW will be subject to a pre-appointment hearing with the committee. The recommendation is, of course, no reflection on the suitability of the current chair, but it does recognise the committee’s important scrutiny role.

I very much look forward to hearing the views of colleagues this afternoon, and also, of course, the Deputy Minister's response. And, of course, I commend our report to the Assembly.

I welcome this debate, because I think that there was very little opportunity given to stakeholders to have any input into the process at the time of the procurement, and that was for good commercial reasons, but it did prevent local stakeholders, who are obviously mainly people who travel by public transport, from giving their views on exactly what was needed. And so I'm hopeful that we will hear from the Minister about how there is going to be now much more public engagement in what people who are affected by the current state of transport—what they want from this process. In particular, obviously, the people I represent in Cardiff Central are particularly keen to see a joined-up transport system that marries up the rail system with the bus system, with integrated ticketing systems that will enable it to be possible to transfer from one mode of transport to another; obviously, good bicycle racks and good walking routes to get to railway stations, which obviously are not going to be at the end of every street, and therefore people need a mode of transport to actually get to the railway station. So, I think it's very useful to see the report from the committee, but I think there's a lot more that we need to do to ensure that ordinary passengers can have their say on the type of transport system that they want to see. 

Thank you to the Chair for leading on this agenda. I found this piece of work very interesting, for us to try and shape the future of Transport for Wales, considering it's such a youthful organisation. And while we did find that there had been some teething problems—notably in our other report with regard to the autumn dysfunction—we know that time will tell how engaged and how positive a relationship Transport for Wales can develop, not only with us but with the wider public. So, I think that's all to be seen for the future. 

I think what's integral to us as politicians is to understand exactly what Transport for Wales and its role will be. There was some—I don't want to use the words 'dispute' or 'confusion' about who was ultimately responsible. When I asked Ken Skates, 'Is it you?', he said 'Yes'; in previous sessions, it may not have been as clear, when we were probing Transport for Wales as to who was ultimately responsible for any failings or for any misgivings in the system. So, whatever happens in terms of the structure, we have to know that the Government will be ultimately responsible for what happens, or if it's not, that those delineations of power and abdication of power is clear for all to see, so that we know and the public knows, more importantly, that if something goes wrong, if they want to complain, if they want to get compensation, they know exactly where to go. And, as yet, I'm not sure that we know what the answer is. 

For example, we've got the joint transport authorities. Are we going to have a regional system, or are we going to have a national system, or are we going to have both? In my gut, and I'm not speaking on behalf of everybody yet, because we've yet to discuss it as a party, I would say that, actually, do we need to have two different systems? Can we not have one system that people will be able to go to and that's clear? The White Paper may be able to give us some more answers on that. 

I did find it a bit ironic and a bit sad to see that the trade unions had to raise with us the fact that some of the trade unions were not being engaged at all by Transport for Wales, and that we had to raise it with them in these committee sessions to say to them, 'Look, if you are going to be TUPE-ing staff over, if you are going to be transferring people to Transport for Wales from other bodies, then they need to be clear about what's happening and they also have to have a role on that board.' I'm glad to see, following on from those public concerns, that Transport for Wales has now engaged with all the trade unions. I think it was PCS that had the biggest concern at the time, but they are now part of that conversation. But it shouldn't be an afterthought; they should be there from the start as part of the social partnership, and we shouldn't be seeing that happening again here in Wales. 

Ultimately, I think any governance system has to be robust enough to be assured that what's being delivered for the public is sufficient and strong. And I think that's where, potentially, things need to improve. In our report, we talk about Transport for Wales being more reactive rather than proactive: people didn't know about what was happening, they didn't know who was running the service anymore, they couldn't find information on the website and they didn't know about plans for integrated ticketing. So, what I would say is that Transport for Wales needs to have a wide-scale Wales campaign to engage with the public about what they want to see happening and how. If Transport for Wales is going to go into buses and to other modes of transport, then how can the public be used as part of that conversation, and not just be told what is going to happen? That's now what they want to see happening in all of this.

One other comment I think we did pick up on in this inquiry, which, perhaps, the Deputy Minister will respond to, was the lack of expertise from those in the rail industry on the board. I appreciate you can't just have rail geeks and rail anoraks on the board—it can't just be those people, as passionate as they are—it has to be inclusive of all society. But if you don't have any of them with those skills, then there is a bit of a problem, is there not? I appreciate that specialism because I'm not a rail specialist—I wouldn't be able to do that work—so please can we see how they can be involved, and how we can use the agenda of climate change that we're all talking about at the moment to focus Transport for Wales's work on looking at how they can integrate different modes of transport into their work, but also encourage people out of their cars. 

I'd like to thank the committee team for all the hard work they've done in supporting this work, but I think this is the beginning of our scrutiny of Transport for Wales, and certainly not the end. 

I'm grateful for the opportunity to speak this afternoon on the future development of Transport for Wales. The purpose of this report is to make sure Transport for Wales is fit for purpose. To that end, the committee makes 13 recommendations. It is pleasing to note that the Welsh Government has accepted all 13 recommendations, and Transport for Wales itself has welcomed the report. 

I would like to confine my remarks today to some of the important key principles highlighted by the committee. The first concerns are: transparency and clarity in operations, role and governance. This emerged as a key issue during the inquiry, with a variety of views being expressed. Concerns were expressed that, at present, there is no clarity over where the functions of Transport for Wales end and those of Welsh Government begin. Welsh Government must clearly define the remit of TfW to the satisfaction of shareholders and customers. I look forward to hearing from the Minister how he intends to achieve this in his reply.

As the report says,

'transport is first and foremost about the needs of the user…TfW must demonstrate a stronger commitment to meeting customer needs and improving passenger experience'.

Although the committee recognised that TfW expressed willingness to be open, concerns were raised that the availability of information for the public had been slow to appear and incomplete. The impression given was that TfW had been providing information and engaging with stakeholders on a reactive rather than proactive basis, which I think Bethan has already mentioned. As a relatively new organisation, these problems are not surprising. TfW must move quickly to set up a formal advisory group to engage with stakeholder bodies and improve public awareness about its responsibilities and functions. A wide range of mechanisms to consult with stakeholders and passengers would demonstrate a stronger commitment to meeting customers' needs and improving passengers' experience.    

Will you take an intervention? 

Yes, go on. 

Can I just ask: has the Conservative Party got a position now on joint transport authorities? 

Let me finish my speech and I'll give you the answer in a minute. 

A strategic transport executive body would co-ordinate the provision of a seamless travel experience for users. This would provide a back-office function for integrated ticketing across all modes of transport, and by all preferred payment methods. Integrated ticketing and a smart travel option will make a huge difference to passengers in Wales, and greatly improve their experience. This is even more important when the passengers are elderly, disabled or need to use wheelchairs.

As my party's shadow Minister for skills, I am particularly interested—now, this is my answer to Hefin David—in opportunities offered by the development of TfW to build and retain skill and capacity in transport expertise in Wales. This includes generating apprenticeships. It was noted that both Transport for Greater Manchester and the Liverpool City Region Combined Authority had a strong focus on local procurement and creating a legacy for jobs and training. The committee welcomed the Minister's aim of creating a specialist organisation that can help and develop transport-related skills across the Welsh public sector. The development of TfW must lead to a tangible increase in transport-related skills and the generation of apprenticeships. We must also follow the lead of Manchester and Liverpool and align procurement practice to supporting a legacy of skills and training in Wales.

Deputy Presiding Officer, I believe that the recommendations in this report will ensure that Transport for Wales continues its development as an organisation that is fit for purpose and that serves well the people of Wales. Thank you.

I'd like to thank all the staff on the committee for their support in what has been a really useful inquiry. In rising to speak today, I'd like to begin by noting the important centenaries being celebrated this year around the development of transport policy in the UK. When I was a teacher, I always used to tell my students that history had relevance in the modern world, and I think these examples bear fruit with that.

In 1819, we saw the opening of the Mansfield and Pinxton railway. Currently celebrating its two-hundredth anniversary, this is the UK’s oldest continuously running commercial railway. And, importantly, in light of remarks that I'll make later and that other Members have already made, that line was linked to economic development, and it was part of a radical attempt to integrate transport infrastructure, in that case rail and canal.

Stepping forward in time 100 years, May 1919 saw the appointment of the first ever Minister of transport in Westminster. Eric Geddes was appointed by Lloyd George to oversee the new department, where a key responsibility was rail, and the future shape of the network was a key debate, again something that will strike a chord with us today. So, it's interesting to note that the kind of priorities that we were looking at as a nation 100 years ago, 200 years ago, still resonate with us today.

Step forward another 100 years, and here we have the report from the Economy, Infrastructure and Skills Committee that we're considering today. And it may be a stretch, I'm afraid, Chair, to think that policy makers will be noting its centenary in 100 years' time, but, despite that, I think that there are key messages in all these areas—the economy, integration and the network shape, which I will take some time to explore.

I'd like to start with recommendation 13. I think that kind of focus on procurement, skills and training could provide a really important economic boost. It’s a real opportunity for people living in areas like mine to get good-quality work. It’s a real opportunity for small and medium-sized enterprises to get good-quality contracts. And as the evidence that we took from Manchester and Liverpool told us, supporting employment and apprenticeships must be at the heart of any regional or national model of working. With that in mind, it’s good to see the range of approaches outlined in the response from Transport for Wales to this recommendation.

Turning briefly to recommendation 11, for Transport for Wales to demonstrate its commitment to its workforce and their welfare, it is important that it enters into a social partnership agreement with relevant trade unions. I know that the TfW website contains a commitment to getting a union rep on its board. So, it would be good to see progress on this point.

For the bulk of my contribution, I'd like to focus on recommendations 5 to 8. All of them relate to the broader points of integration and network that I mentioned in my opening remarks. All have an important role in ensuring that TfW delivers on the transformative shift that we wish to see from it. That being the case, it's good that all of those recommendations have been accepted by the Welsh Government and to read the positive reply from TfW, where appropriate.

To achieve these aims, in my opinion, though, bus services are absolutely crucial, and to realise truly the vision of the south Wales metro as a truly integrated transport system, we must ensure healthy arterial routes—arterial routes that, via bus services or perhaps active travel links, link what are often the poorest, most isolated communities to the main transport thoroughfares.

From my constituency postbag, particularly in relation to those bus services, we still have a long, long way to go to fulfil this and to realise the fullest ambition of the south Wales metro. To do that would accord with the well-being goals and offer a real intervention around promoting social justice, and, of course, a joined-up service would require joined-up, integrated ticketing, and I'd like to see it being one that doesn’t penalise the infrequent traveller. One of my local branches of Active Wales have, in a similar vein, made a plea that concessionary bus travel be extended to rail services and I would like to see some further work around this.

During our inquiry, several of our witnesses gave compelling evidence also around a possible role for TfW in terms of the highway network, and I believe this would be a really positive opportunity to replace what I personally feel is a less than responsive trunk road agency. My constituency was badly affected by flooding on part of the A465 near Rhigos earlier this year, and the actions of the South Wales Trunk Road Agency were problematic. They used inaccurate signage, unable to find pumping equipment that the local authority could rapidly source. Their bungling caused frustration to commuters and local residents, making a bad situation worse. I've had also recurring problems around this with SWTRA for the past three years in terms of signage around road closures, failure to repair potholes, traffic light timings, and dangerously poor visibility on key junctions due to a lack of grass cutting. In all cases, these issues, which have caused delays and impacts on road user safety, have eventually been sorted, but only after personal lobbying from myself or other Assembly Members. So, moving forward, a greater role for Transport for Wales, with clear lines of accountability, could only be an improvement.

First, Dirprwy Lywydd, can I also extend my and my party's deepest sympathy to the families and friends of the two workmen killed on the Cardiff to Swansea line this morning?

In its 'Prosperity for All' economic plan, the Welsh Government stressed the importance of connectivity in Wales as essential to economic success. Transport for Wales will have a key role to play in the delivery of the infrastructure and transport schedule side of this connectivity. I wish to acknowledge the considerable amount of work the committee undertook to produce this report. It is noticeable that all the recommendations contained in the report have been accepted by the Welsh Government. I believe this indicates the maturity of the committee, which now must be viewed as a critical friend, not just a committee of scrutiny.

I know from my time on the committee that there was cross-party consensus to improve the economic and social performance of Wales. One matter of concern is in recommendation 5. This says that:

'It is difficult to recommend what form the transport body should take until there is clarity about its functions.'

I simply make the note that perhaps it should have been the other way around, whereby you decide its functions and then create the model you need to fulfil those functions. It certainly appears that there is consensus between the Welsh Government, Transport for Wales, and the EIS committee to ensure that Transport for Wales will be competent to fulfil the role of an overarching body that will be able to co-ordinate all the transport network and give direction, which may have been lacking in the past.

There is no doubt that the Welsh Government is fully committed to creating the very best transport infrastructure for Wales, but I say delivery, delivery, and, again, delivery will be the ultimate arbiter as to whether the Government's goals are achieved. So, we must not allow Transport for Wales little leeway on this aspect.

It is noteworthy that Transport for Wales are in the process of using passenger time lost, PTL, as its new performance tool—the first to use it in the UK. Whilst this will enhance data feedback, it is the implementation of corrective actions that will be the true test of Transport for Wales's ability to improve on passenger expectations. To summarise, Llywydd: 600 new jobs, 30 apprenticeships each year, new trains on order, planning and detailed design going ahead for the metro project, and work already in progress on improving stations—the future certainly looks bright for the travelling public in Wales, and I feel confident that continued scrutiny will ensure that all promises and obligations are met, and, hopefully, in keeping with our trains, on time.

I'd like to associate myself with the remarks about the tragedy at Margam that the Minister mentioned and has been mentioned by others.

According to the Welsh Government's response to the recommendations, the long-term aim of Transport for Wales is

'to deliver a public transport system that aims to give everyone easier access to bus, train and active travel for everyday journeys.'

The Chamber will know that I've made much complaint about the Government's—probably not the Government, actually, the approach to house building that has taken place in my constituency, and particularly in the south end, leaving the Government often with no choice but to allow that building to go ahead because of demand. But those houses are being built in areas in which the transport connections are very poor. And—

Will you take an intervention?

Yes.

Surely it's the role of the local authority to decide whether or not a particular housing development is sustainable or not.

Yes, and the local authority turns it down on those very grounds, it goes to appeal and the Planning Inspectorate overturn it on appeal, and then the Minister approves the appeal because the Minister is concerned that, if she doesn't approve it on appeal, it will be subject to judicial review and the planning inspector's view will hold sway in those circumstances. That's the difficulty that—. And I can give the precise example of Hendredenny. The problem with Hendredenny, where Redrow are going to build houses, is that it just does not connect very well, and the transport estimates suggest that more cars—that just six cars will be on the road a day as a result of the building of that estate. It's absurd, because the transport system does not provide for the volumes of traffic that will actually be created. Therefore, the future of Transport for Wales is massively important to reduce the need for that kind of housing estate and to connect better, and use the transport system to connect better transport across the Caerphilly constituency, particularly when building in areas of need.

It's encouraging that the Minister accepts recommendation 7, and recommendation 7 says that Transport for Wales

'should provide clear evidence of how it is complying with the principles of the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015.'

That's exactly what we are talking about when we talk about connectivity and new-build estates.

Recommendation 6 touches on something that is of great interest to the committee, which was, as I raised with Mohammad Asghar, the creation of joint transport authorities. I think there's a lack of clarity there as to whether we need a national joint transport authority, whether we need regional joint transport authorities, and the Government needs to be clear about this and what roles they will play. Will the joint transport authorities simply be repeating what the Transport for Wales body does? And we look forward to clarity on that in particular.

One thing I'd say in response to Bethan Jenkins, who raised concerns about responsibility for aspects of what Transport for Wales does: in my experience, James Price, as chief executive officer of Transport for Wales, has been very open in both answering questions in committee very honestly, and sometimes to possibly his reputational detriment in the fact that there's a lot of things he cannot do, but also then is more than happy to invite Assembly Members with an interest to see what they're doing, particularly in the Canton depot, and see what they're doing to bring new trains to the line.

We've now, on the Rhymney to Cardiff line, got loco-hauled services and additional carriages precisely as a result of Transport for Wales. The existence of Transport for Wales has led to additional carriages on the line that runs through my constituency, and that's really very, very important. That's a stop-gap measure while the new trains are being built, and that is something that I think is hugely relevant to the fact that we've got this franchise now, Wales owned and Wales run. And the changes in the future will be directly as a result of the franchise being overseen by Ministers in this Parliament.

Finally, with regard to ticketing, we need this seamless ticketing—Vikki Howells mentioned it—and the tracking of ticketing. I had an experience on the weekend: I took my children on a return journey from Hengoed to Aber. I went to Ffiliffest in Caerphilly castle and then went to Morgan Jones Park and the splash pad there—everyone is recommended to visit that, it's amazing—but I bought my ticket using my Transport for Wales app on my phone. So, I bought my ticket before I left the house. Nobody checked my ticket on the train. There must be technology that would enable the conductor on the train to know whether tickets have been purchased or not, making life easier for the conductor. The carriage was full, so the conductor simply wasn't able to get from one carriage to the other to check my ticket, but I had bought the ticket. But it would be very tempting—and probably my constituents won't thank me for this—to not buy a ticket; human nature. I think we need to have the technology that enables, without being intrusive, the conductor to know that tickets have been bought. I think that's an important consideration for the future.

The first thing I want to do also is to send my condolences to the families of those two men who just were killed today, and to concur with everything that was said earlier in terms of the way that we feel here today—that people going to work expect to come home from work.

I want to say that—and to carry on from where my colleague left off—I do welcome the Transport for Wales initiative, because it does mean, quite clearly, that there will be a focus on transport in its entirety in Wales, and that can only be a positive thing, and we're seeing positive things that have already arisen from that. But I want to focus firstly on going forward, particularly when we're looking at the climate emergency that's been declared. We're talking about cleaner air and we're also talking about decarbonisation in the transport system. So, there's a logic—and it's been accepted—that we must align the transport policies with all aspects of planning, and, again, Hefin just talked about that for his region. But we must talk about it for all areas—[Interruption.] Yes, okay, he hasn't got a region; I've got a region. But we must talk about it in the round, because transport—. If we're going to build—and I hope we are—many, many more houses for people, and if we're going to talk particularly about affordable housing within that, we must allow those individuals, whoever they are and wherever they live, an opportunity to travel by either public transport or to walk or to cycle.

Too often in the past—we've all seen it, and the now Deputy Minister has spoken about it previously as a backbencher—we've seen estates being built and there is absolutely no access or no consideration about the way that people are going to travel around those houses. The same can be said when we're building schools, hospitals, or anything else for that matter. Because, if we're going to get serious, we have to get serious at the start, in the pre-planning phase. I have every confidence that the Deputy Minister will have his eye very firmly on that agenda, and that's a good thing, but we need to be sure that it's happening on the ground. Do we need—when we're looking at a national plan, and a regional plan and a local plan, and, you know, are we having conversations with local authorities who'll be drawing up those plans locally, ensuring that the members who are on the planning committees fully understand what it is that they should be looking at, when they're deciding an application, in the round? Because, whilst we're here engaged in this, and we've done a committee inquiry into it, it doesn't necessarily mean that the people who will be asked to implement it on the ground will be as clear in their understanding as we might be. So, I suppose that's my real question to you. Thank you.

Thank you. Can I now call the Deputy Minister for Economy and Transport, Lee Waters?

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Dirprwy Lywydd. Can I thank the committee for the considered way that they undertook their inquiry and for their report? The role of Transport for Wales is evolving, and it's useful for the committee to do this work at this point in the cycle. I was keen, as a member of this committee when it was drafting its work programme, that the committee put its nose into this debate at a formative stage, and I am equally keen now, as a Minister, to receive the advice and thoughts of the committee about how that should be shaped. I think it's an important example of a committee performing its scrutiny and policy influencing role. That is one of the reasons why the Government has accepted all the recommendations, and has made clear in them the action we intend to take and the action we intend Transport for Wales to take. Our vision is for a world-class integrated low-carbon transport system in Wales to drive forward our economies and our communities to greater prosperity. TfW was established to support us in achieving that vision. The company has an important role in driving integration across the entire transport network, putting the passenger at the centre of everything it does.

As we begin our journey with TfW to change Wales's network, the complexity and volatility of the drivers for change that the Welsh Government needs to respond to are unprecedented. The advent of new and emerging technologies in the transport sector will transform how people use transport in their everyday lives over the next decade. I was launching this morning, Dirprwy Llywydd, a new fleet of buses for TrawsCymru and reflecting on my own experience, as a student in Aberystwyth making the hideous journey by bus through the winding lanes of mid Wales, with drivers going way too fast, and myself feeling very queasy after a night out the night before—of what the experience of using public transport was. And then, fast forward 25 years in the future, and the experience of using public transport will be dramatically different. The idea of an Uber for buses is now something that we are actively piloting through the Valleys and in Wrexham, which was simply unimaginable when I was a student. So, these new technologies, if managed correctly, are opportunities for Wales's economy to benefit from new, highly skilled jobs and for the passenger experience to change too, and to attract more people to shift modes of transport to help us respond to the climate change emergency.

The existing model, whereby Welsh Government has responsibility for strategy all the way through to project delivery and operations, leads to fragmentation of effort and of focus, inevitably shifting from the development of effective policy to dealing with the here and now of delivery. We've set out in the economic action plan our aspiration for TfW to exploit the opportunity it has as our transport integrator—to allow the company to take on a wider range of transport functions. In doing so, we will increase TfW's staffing capacity, capability and expertise to deliver the Welsh Government's policy goals, including some immediate steps towards transport integration: empowering TfW to deliver a public transport system that gives everyone easier access to bus, train and active travel for everyday journeys; creating a transport planning model for Wales, enabling improved decision making for transport and land-use planning; implementation of smart ticketing technology to create interoperability and use across modes; and co-ordinating information across transport modes to help inform route planning.

In the medium term, we have instructed officials to plan for the migration of the remaining transport delivery functions, such as highway improvements and operations, from the Welsh Government into TfW. Doing this will leave the Welsh Government free to focus on the policy challenges posed by decarbonisation, air quality, autonomous and electric vehicles and so on to develop a multiterm legislative programme and policy framework that will help us realise the ambitions we have for TfW. As part of the bus reform work, we are proposing the joint transport authority approach, whereby local authorities in the regions of Wales work together to provide local and regional transport outcomes. I'd like to respond to Hefin David's challenge—not the bit where he revealed his penchant for fare dodging, but the other bit—where he said there was a lack of clarity on whether TfW should be a national transport planning body or a regional one. This is the debate that we want to have, and I'd invite Members to input this into local authorities too.

Our current thinking—and this is a genuine invitation to help us shape it—working closely with local authorities, and the work that the Minister for Local Government and Housing is doing on creating a regional footprint for collaboration, is that transport should be very much part of that, not as a stand-alone development, but completely integrated into the regional collaboration bodies that the Minister is creating. Just as, at the moment, the Welsh Government can commission Transport for Wales to do a piece of work for us, it's entirely possible, in keeping with what we want to see, that local authorities could equally commission them to do a piece of work for them, because there simply isn't the capacity and the expertise in every local authority, as there once was, to be able to do this. So, there's no reason why different layers of government can't exercise that executive and democratic decision making, and TfW can sit alongside them as partners to deliver the expertise. That way, as a small, smart nation, we can make the most of our expertise, and do that in a collaborative way.

That's our plan. That's what we're working towards, and we'd welcome some challenge on that if Members think that a different direction would be better. So, I do hope there is some clarity, to answer Hefin David's point on our direction of travel. As an organisation solely focused on the delivery of transport solutions, TfW can build a highly skilled transport delivery workforce with emphasis on technical, management and leadership skills that will create better value and outcomes for people, places and for Wales. Diolch yn fawr.

Thank you. Can I now call Russell George to reply to the debate?

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. Transport for Wales and the Minister stated their commitment to openness and transparency, but I would just say that their record on this is imperfect. There have been gaps in time frames covered by Transport for Wales's remit letter, and we've still not seen the long-awaited business case for its future governance.

Now, Hefin David spoke at some length about JTAs. As a committee, we recognise that there is an ongoing consultation with local government and others about the proposed joint transport authorities, which of course may have a bearing on how Transport for Wales operates in the future. So, the Minister's commitment to publish Transport for Wales's business case and the future remit during the consultation on JTA proposals was welcome, I should say. It is very important, I think, that the Minister soon makes his intention clear so that everyone can understand how JTAs will fit into the future Welsh Government's vision for an integrated transport network.

Am I right in thinking that the evidence we received said that a national JTA and regional JTAs would be a step too far, and would be duplicating themselves?

I think you are. I was just going to come on to talk perhaps a little bit about that as well following your contribution.

From the evidence that was gathered—. I'll come back to JTAs. From the evidence we gathered, I don't think we're able to conclude that one specific governance model would be a perfect fit for Wales, but I think a pick and mix of best practice should be applied. We heard evidence from transport expert Professor Iain Docherty, who told us that the number of transport bodies should be kept to the minimum necessary and no more.

Local government representatives have told us that they want to see tight co-ordination mechanisms for making important transport decisions in Wales. Although they welcome the regional collaboration, they question the need for a national JTA. Some stakeholders also see Transport for Wales as having that national co-ordination role, although of course it's a limited company owned by the Government, not a transport authority with statutory powers. So the committee therefore looks forward to seeing the detail of proposals for JTAs and Transport for Wales's future role to understand how they're going to fit together.

Jenny Rathbone and Vikki Howells and Hefin also commented on integrated ticketing in their contributions. Now, the remit given to Transport for Wales for land use planning and active travel will be important for developing an integrated network, because our inquiry showed the importance of a governance model that works across policy areas, like health, education and planning. Passenger journeys don't recognise, of course, those borders, and the needs of passengers, I think, must always come first.

We want to see evidence as well that Transport for Wales's work on integrated ticketing and communications and engagement with passengers is bearing fruit. We want to see that happening. I do just note the response to recommendation 8 to our inquiry, which points to its website for details on its obligations on integrated ticketing, but I think much more detail needs to come forward in that regard. I also thank Vikki as well for her contribution—Vikki Howells—who gave us a bit of a history lesson. I learnt some things today that I hadn't previously. I wouldn't expect anything different from a former teacher. 

Thank you to Bethan Sayed, who joined our committee just as we were starting this piece of work. I'd echo Bethan's final comments that as a committee we're going to continue to hold scrutiny on Transport for Wales. I also echo Hefin's comments, in that I think that Transport for Wales appreciate our scrutiny and challenge and they've always been very open to coming to committee and engaging with us as Members as well. 

I thank Oscar Asghar, who wasn't on the committee but is a new member of committee after joining our committee more recently. I'm grateful for his comments as well. And I thank Joyce Watson for her contribution, and David Rowlands for his contribution. David was a member of the committee at the time, but is no longer a member of the committee, so as I said in the committee—he wasn't there to hear this—but I thanked David for his contribution on the committee during his time with us. 

We're always grateful for those who give evidence to our inquiry and certainly appreciate the input from our transport stakeholders. We thank also—I think Vikki Howells mentioned it—our staff on the committee and the integrated team for their support as well. Our overriding message is that passengers deserve the best and they must come at the centre of everything that Transport for Wales does from now on. 

Thank you very much. The proposal is to note the committee's report. Does any Member object? No. Therefore, the motion is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Item 7 this afternoon is a debate on the Children, Young People and Education Committee's report, 'Bacc to the Future: The status of the Welsh Baccalaureate qualification'. I call on the Chair of the committee, Lynne Neagle, to move the motion.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I'm very pleased to open this debate today on the Children, Young People and Education Committee's report into the status of the Welsh baccalaureate qualification.

Concerns about the Welsh bac have, over a number of years and all too often, been appearing in the news and in our constituency and committee inboxes alike—concerns about universities choosing not to accept the qualification, about its impact on learner choice and success in other subject areas, concerns about teachers feeling ill-prepared to deliver the qualification. As a parent of a young person who is going through the Welsh bac, I get told first hand and very regularly about some of the difficulties being faced by our young people. The weight of concerns being raised set alarm bells ringing for us as a committee. We therefore wanted to undertake this inquiry and hear directly from those on the front line—pupils, parents, teachers, employers and universities—about their experiences of the Welsh bac to establish how widespread the challenges being raised with us are.

The committee's report makes 10 recommendations. I don't intend to go through each of those recommendations today. I will instead outline some of the main concerns raised throughout the inquiry. The committee very much welcomes the response from the Minister, which accepts all bar one of the recommendations that we have made for the Government, with one recommendation accepted in principle. We also welcome the response from Qualifications Wales, which was very positive about the work the committee has undertaken and provides a clear commitment to evolving the Welsh bac so that it secures the best possible benefit to our young people. Our inquiry showed there are clear concerns about the Welsh baccalaureate. However, it is worth outlining that, despite initial doubts held by the committee, the evidence we gathered showed clear merit to studying the Welsh bac.

This was particularly so in terms of the breadth of skills developed for future learning, employment and life. However, the way in which the qualification is currently being delivered and publicised is having a detrimental effect on its actual and perceived value. Many of the negative views we heard also related both to a lack of understanding of the qualification’s purpose and content, and the inconsistency in its delivery across Wales.

Although we found that understanding of the Welsh bac is growing in some areas, employers and universities remain underinformed about the qualification. Centres of learning remain worryingly inconsistent in their approach to its teaching. Duplication of effort and unmanageable assessment requirements are also leaving teachers and learners understandably fatigued. For the Welsh bac's potential to be fully realised, these issues need to be addressed as a matter of priority. It is essential that the Welsh Government makes a clearer statement about its vision for the Welsh bac that is underpinned by guidance that provides detail on its expectations in relation to the qualification’s delivery. So I very much welcome the Minister’s confirmation that the Welsh Government is currently reviewing the guidance available on the Welsh bac and its delivery, and that it will be publishing clearer guidance in due course.

We also believe that Welsh Government and Qualifications Wales should work together to deliver a focused awareness-raising campaign especially aimed at business and higher education institutions. If the skills developed under the Welsh bac are better understood by those sectors, it will help secure their engagement and buy-in. We recognise the work that Qualifications Wales has already undertaken in this respect and are pleased that the Minister’s response indicated that Welsh Government are now working closely with Qualifications Wales and WJEC to develop a joint communications plan to help ensure that universities and employers understand the skills that learners develop while undertaking this qualification. 

The committee found that there is a lack of clarity about the meaning and implementation of the Welsh Government’s policy of universal adoption for the Welsh bac. While some centres of learning adopt a mandatory approach to its study, others do not. In many cases this variability has led to a sense of unfairness and to some learners moving from one institution to another simply to avoid the Welsh bac. It has also led to a perception that the requirement to take the Welsh bac might be compromising young people’s future options and, as a result, might impact on their rights. Our recommendation called on the Welsh Government, as a matter of priority, to issue strengthened and more detailed guidance on its policy for universal adoption. We believe that guidance should set out clearly the circumstances in which learners may be exempt from studying the skills challenge certificate.

We were pleased to see that the Welsh Government is developing updated guidance on the Welsh bac and that the policy of universal adoption of the Welsh bac will be included in that guidance. However, the committee hopes and expects that guidance to include the detail that we called for, and we will monitor the development of the guidance very closely. It is also essential that, in developing that guidance, a rigorous and comprehensive child rights impact assessment is undertaken.

We have heard that the introduction of the Welsh bac, along with wider education reforms in recent years, has led to timetables being stretched. As a consequence, options and choices for learners are perceived to have narrowed. While it cannot be denied that the introduction of the skills challenge certificate and wider education reforms leave less capacity in the timetable for other learning, if designed and implemented effectively, we believe the Welsh bac has the potential to widen learners' skills and experiences.

Appropriate levels of training, development and resources for those charged with delivery of the Welsh bac was also a clear concern for many of those who gave evidence. Such concerns are not limited to this particular qualification and the committee has heard similar views in relation to other education reforms. We believe that the Welsh Government can help improve the delivery of the Welsh bac by ensuring that initial teacher education and continuing professional development are fit for purpose for its delivery. Again, we very much welcome that the Welsh Government has accepted our recommendations in this respect.

The education sector is facing a period of reform on an unprecedented scale. With so much change on the horizon, it is essential that we all work together to help ensure that our learners receive the quality education that they deserve. As a committee, we will be monitoring that reform agenda closely, and the teaching of the Welsh bac going forward will play a big part in that.

The committee is positive about the Welsh baccalaureate qualification, and if the changes outlined in our report are delivered, we believe that the future of the Welsh bac, and its learners, is bright. Thank you very much. 

Thank you for, Lynne, for chairing what I thought was one of the most enjoyable inquiries we've had with the Children, Young People and Education Committee—in the time I've been there, anyway—not least because it gave us the chance to collect evidence directly from young people with experience, past and present, of course the bac has been around for a while in different versions, and its component parts as well. 

Members, of course, will know that on the basis of the evidence presented to the committee, the Welsh Conservatives have announced their policy of dropping the bac, but the report, of course, itself does not recommend that. On the basis that the Government will be in power for a year or two yet, I still expect them to take action—urgent action in some cases—on the back of the committee's live recommendations.

Every other element of the qualification should surely already be mainstreamed into the existing curriculum and qualifications by now, but I did have great hopes, actually, with the skills challenge certificate in its most recent iteration, particularly the community challenge side of this. The skills challenge aims to develop literacy, numeracy and digital skills, but also critical thinking, problem solving, planning and organisation skills, creativity and innovation, and personal effectiveness. And actually, who's not going to want that for our young people? I'd say these skills are essential for personal empowerment, resilient communities, effective leadership in work and public life, and any hope for the Welsh economy as well, if I can add that. But they're also pretty much the same aims as for the new curriculum and that's why we as Welsh Conservatives don't think we need both. And I draw Members' attention in particular to recommendation 10, which says, in essence, learn from the mistakes of the bac and get the new curriculum right. 

A quick look at the recommendations gives a flavour of the ongoing problems—we've heard some from Lynne already: the need for a statement of Welsh Government vision for the bac; guidance about expectation on delivering resources—I'm pleased to see movement on that; an awareness-raising campaign to increase understanding; clarity on whether it's compulsory; clarity on whether post-16 students are choosing to study where the bac's not compulsory; better understanding of the impact of the workload on learners' mental health and well-being; and better understanding of the effect of the bac on other options on the curriculum. This is a qualification that has been around for a while now, so that is a lot of concerns still to be raising about it. 

Only last week, I met students at Ysgol Gyfun Gymraeg Llangynwyd who really valued the skills challenge. This is a school that is wholly committed to it and the ethos, actually, of the new curriculum is already being felt and implemented throughout that school. But it wasn't a consistent experience across Wales. We took compelling evidence from learners across Wales—now, we accept that parents' attitudes may inevitably colour their children's views—but these were actually tested separately in work that we did as well. When young people were surveyed, over half of those studying the foundation level skills challenge thought it was less useful than other qualifications in preparing them for work and life. This is the purpose of the skills challenge. Two thirds of them thought it was more time consuming, even though the majority thought it was no more or less difficult than traditional study. 

The same is true of the national-level skills challenge certificate, although in this case, 70 per cent of students thought it was too time consuming. That post-16 students felt the same was enough to convince me, especially as a third of them said that they thought that it was less difficult than A-levels, despite it being more time consuming—two thirds of them thought that. And that should concern us, I think, because the bac is sold to universities as an A-level equivalent, but if it's being used by some universities as a reason to lower other entry grades, alongside other schemes offering candidates lower grades if they prioritise that particular university for their UCAS applications, we need to have a think about that, because lowering entry requirements is a bad sign for the higher education sector more generally. And citing the bac as a driver of that does actually worry me, rather than give me confidence in its robustness— 

Will you give way?

Okay, then—if you'll be generous.

I will.

Thank you very much. I'll be really quick. I'm just wondering, from the visit to Ysgol Gyfun Gymraeg Llangynwyd—and I'm visiting there shortly because I know they are really very strong behind the Welsh bac—what is it that you learnt that I might learn when I go there about what they are doing really well with it that we can transfer to other schools?

This might take a while. You've got teachers there who have actually really bought into the principle. They've done their continuous professional development in order to make sure that they're in a position to develop and deliver a bac in a way that relates to the pupils as well, and they've looked at the community in which they work to see how they can use the freedom of how to populate the bac to get this right. This is exactly what the new curriculum could look like, but, as we heard, we had evidence from students in other schools, who were basically being told what to study: 'Just do a little bit extra than what you did at post 16, add bits of work you've already done.' That is not how the bac should work.

So, if you'll bear with me, Dirprwy Lywydd, we've heard some of this: not enough time, duplicating work done in earlier years, reducing time for other studies, marking seems not commensurate with effort needed—this is the voice of pupils and students. And it's not that they don't value the skills, but it's that the process of achieving them can be inefficient, disproportionate, inconsistent and unappreciated by employers and, in some cases, further education and higher education.

I just want to finish, if I may, Dirprwy Lywydd, on the Government's ambivalence on whether the bac should be compulsory. The committee sought clarity, but perhaps you can confirm, Minister, that you agree that you cannot make this compulsory post 16. I see now that colleges are getting more money to deliver it—teachers tell me it's more expensive to deliver than A-levels—so that's good. But that leaves colleges whose students don't want to take this at something of a financial disadvantage now, doesn't it? At least for the two years where students have just embarked on a programme where they haven't chosen the bac.

I want to make this final point. If money is being used as an incentive for students to take this as an additional, rather than an alternative qualification, this may call into question the prioritisation of students' mental well-being, and, as you know, Minister, our committee's had plenty to say about that.

I think the Chair of the committee, Lynne Neagle, encapsulated perfectly the views of the committee on some of the key issues that we raised, and there was a very strong degree of specificity on the issues that we felt were pertinent to this. Therefore, I won't go back over those things but will just pick up some recommendations. But I would say, as a child of the 1980s, 'Bacc to the Future' has got to be one of the best committee reports that we've ever had. [Laughter.]

The Minister notes in her introduction to her response to the report that the content of the specification presents schools with a choice of delivery models, so a creative approach to curriculum requirements can be undertaken. That's what she says, and I think that fits very much with the approach of the new curriculum and the development of the new curriculum and how that will be implemented too, so there's a parallel there. And I think Suzy Davies touched on that in some of the things that she was saying about how it develops.

But that also raises that question—. I don't want to echo too much of what Suzy said, but to what degree do we balance the autonomy of individual schools, colleges and lecturers against the need for consistency throughout the qualification? That's a clear challenge that the different approaches can also lead to a lack of consistency in the approaches taken to the Welsh bac, and can therefore lead to the undermining of the delivery. Recommendations 8 and 10 touch on that, in that they call for—and it's been accepted by the Government—that continual evaluation of and learning about the impact of the Welsh baccalaureate on other education reforms and the wider change that is going through the curriculum at the moment. The Minister will know that I've raised with her experiences that schools have had on those wider issues. It's encouraging that the Minister has accepted both those recommendations, 8 and 10.

I had a meeting with ColegauCymru during the inquiry and afterwards to discuss some of the concerns that they may have that would be raised in the report but also more broadly. They noted recommendation 7 about the concerns about the mental health and well-being of learners. ColegauCymru also said that they're aware of learners who potentially struggle to juggle the demands of the Welsh bac, their main chosen qualifications and also resits in either English, Welsh or maths GCSE particularly. And it's a lot to take on and could have a detrimental impact on the learners' well-being as well as their ability to achieve both the advanced Welsh baccalaureate as opposed to the skills challenge certificate, and the Minister has accepted that recommendation and makes reference to the joint ministerial task and finish group, and I think this is the one that the Chair of the committee is a member of. I think it would be helpful to have a little bit more detail on precisely what will be done with regard to the Welsh bac via that committee.

And finally, ColegauCymru also raised the issue of changes to the way the Welsh bac is funded in the next academic year. They said that if FE colleges don't register learners for the qualification, they stand to lose several hundred pounds per learner, while this situation doesn't apply to schools. This is what they told me. And, ultimately, funding drives behaviour in choices, so you could end up seeing a differential between the ways FE and schools approach the Welsh bac. It wasn't directly covered by the report itself, but I think it would be helpful to have a response from the Minister on that as well.

I was on the committee at the beginning when it was decided to do this report and some of the initial scoping was thought through and picked up on what the Chair described as some of the concerns that motivated the committee to do this, but I haven't had the benefit of sitting through the evidence, which, at least for some members of the committee, seems to have mitigated at least some of the concerns expressed. However, at the same time, the Conservatives have switched their policy to clearly doing away with the Welsh bac. And I've read this report closely, for our group, but we're still considering what we want our policy on this to be going forward.

I just wonder whether one of the key challenges about this is explaining what the Welsh bac is, and Hefin referred to the beginning of the title, 'Bacc to the Future', which I was going to compliment the committee on, but it's then the bit that comes after that, 'The status of the Welsh Baccalaureate qualification', and I think that implies at least a degree of uncertainty as to what it is, and I'm not sure as to the degree to which this report clears this up, although I think there have been one or two helpful statements by the Minister in response.

I thought it was a good report in general, but there was just one bit where, at least, to me, on my reading, it fell short—I thought one area was just describing the context of the Welsh bac, I don't think it clearly set out the difference between the foundation and the national level. It refers to the difference of the grading of the SCC, but not the need to have the five GCSEs on the appropriate criteria at C level plus for the national. But then for the foundation level, it's only getting the GCSEs at all, so G—[Inaudible.] Whereas you look at what then is called the English baccalaureate and I think that gives us a challenge still further of explaining the Welsh baccalaureate, and the fact that they set that as a five GCSEs at C or above or now five or above in England, and that has to include English and maths and is a little more specific in terms of, at least, the other three—I worry that that gives the impression to some, perhaps, who don't look at it in quite the level of detail that we're able to debate today, that the Welsh baccalaureate may not be as high a standard as the English baccalaureate because we have this lower foundation level that only requires the level G rather than the C or equivalent.

I also think that we aren't successful in explaining or marketing the SCC—skills challenge certificate—component, and, at least in principle, this strikes me as a good idea. I think when people look at the Welsh baccalaureate, and even in some of our conversations today, when we say, 'the bac' or 'the Welsh bac', actually, that's a multiple of things, and part of it's an umbrella that's describing a minimal level of other qualifications, and then you have this SCC that is unique to the Welsh bac, and I think the 50 per cent extended project and what that's trying to do in allowing the student a greater range of options of what they do in that, and something that's a really substantive and extended project to develop their skills, in principle strikes me as something that could work well. And I also think it's something that learners can talk to about in interviews with universities and use to their benefit in that personal statement. But I don't think it's sufficiently well understood by universities and employers and, to a degree, parents, that that SCC is something additional we're doing in Wales that's potentially a real thing they can sell, and it's not clear how that relates to the umbrella that then gives the Welsh bac that that's within, particularly when people, at least to a degree, have a perception of what the English bac is or isn't as well. And I think that's a real challenge for us to sell and explain that. And some of the areas that Suzy highlighted in terms of what learners are saying about it I think adds to that difficulty. I'm not quite ready to say, 'This is wrong', but I really do have concerns about it.

On one area, I think the Minister's response is really helpful when she says that

'The Welsh Baccalaureate is not a statutory subject in the national curriculum, and is therefore not compulsory for all pupils',

irrespective of what guidance she may be revising or putting out there. That is on the record—a very clear statement.

The Minister will recall one particular constituency case that I had and in which she and her senior team were really very helpful, and it was a learner doing A-levels, applying to Cambridge, already doing four A-levels, trying to do sixth term examination paper levels for Cambridge as well, and was really struggling to fit in the Welsh bac—I mean the advanced SCC element—and his school was telling him, 'Well, actually, this is compulsory, or at least this is required, and this is because of what Welsh Government is saying.' And it wasn't easy for him to agree that at a school level, and thanks to the Minister's intervention, we had a successful outcome for that particular individual who is now at Cambridge, and congratulations to him.

But I think we have a more helpful statement here, but I just wish we could do better at selling this skills certificate and that component of it. And I worry that the A to G possibility of getting the Welsh bac but not the English bac gives the perception to some people that people who do get the national or the advanced level unfairly suffer, by comparison, if people have a perception that the Welsh bac may be easier or not at the quality of qualification as the English one is, and that English bac itself is pretty much the same performance indicator that the Minister's just decided she is no longer going to hold schools to account for.

Reading the report and the Government's responses, you could be forgiven for thinking the problem the Government faces with the Welsh bac is that colleges don't properly understand what it is. However, looking at some of the information in the full report, it's clear that the actual problem the Welsh Government faces is that universities and educational professionals do understand the Welsh bac but don't like it very much.

Durham University examined the Welsh bac closely in 2016 after it had been changed a year earlier, and concluded it was not equivalent to an A-level and that they would not consider it as part of a potential student's application. Where colleges are prepared to accept it, they often nuance that by saying that they would not accept it as a qualification for entry on to the higher-end courses such as medicine.

Even the chief executive of Qualifications Wales, Philip Blaker, says that three A-levels alongside the SCC element of the Welsh bac is probably the best solution for learners, but that effectively renders much of the bac pointless. Most universities—[Interruption.] No. I don't have much time, Hefin.

Most universities make offers based on three A-levels, and those courses that require more are likely to be the high-end ones that colleges have said they won't accept the Welsh bac for. So, Welsh bac supporters can say until they're blue in the face that the qualification is equivalent to an A-level, but the fact is that most universities seem to disagree. And they disagree not because of a lack of understanding of it, but because they do understand it.

Worryingly, research from Cardiff University shows that students who have the Welsh bac often perform less well at university than other students, and that makes me wonder if the qualification—[Interruption.] If you doubt it, ask Cardiff University. It makes me wonder if the qualification gives students an easier ride than an A-level and is leaving them underprepared for the rigours of undergraduate courses. [Interruption.] It would certainly be one of the explanations behind university admissions—[Interruption.]—officers being reluctant to treat it as a full A-level equivalent. I'm not giving way, I'm sorry. So, it's not surprising that we are finding the Welsh bac the hard sell to students when all the evidence is that it is counterproductive. To be able to open all the doors of learners from England, a Welsh pupil would have to study three A-levels and the Welsh bac. [Interruption.] Do I have to get any louder?

Would you like to take an intervention to save you getting louder?

And they're not get onto the top courses. It is clear that, at the moment, it will also always be better for a learner to do an A-level instead of the Welsh bac. [Interruption.] Shut up, Huw.

No, no. I'm sorry. You must withdraw that. It is a debate. [Interruption.] No, I'm sorry, you either withdraw that or consider it—

[Inaudible.]—shouting and heckling at me since the moment I opened my mouth.

Yes, and that's part of a debate. I'm surprised you wouldn't have—[Interruption.] I will not have—

I couldn't even hear myself think.

I'm sorry, I will not have you shout across the Chamber what you've just shouted. Just reflect on it and carry on.

Well, I'm sorry that I had to tell Huw to shut up.

I'm not having that, I'm sorry. Either you just carry on with the rest of your speech and ignore the side noises, or you can sit down and we'll move on.

Fine, I will do. I'll ignore them.

The report itself makes some valid proposals as far as selling the Welsh bac is concerned, but it would appear to be trying to sell a product for which there is no demand. The Confederation of British Industry and the Federation of Small Businesses were asked for an input but refused to do so, as did Universities Wales. All of these organisations have a huge interest in the qualification of young people, and the deliberate disengagement from the discussion speaks volumes about their opinion of the Welsh bac.

I would therefore be very concerned if I thought that steps had been taken to make the Welsh bac a compulsory part of our young people's education. All the available evidence shows that there are serious problems with the qualification that are nothing to do with a lack of awareness of it, but, in fact, the contrary. That's not to say that it couldn't be a useful qualification in the future, especially if the Government went to Russell Group universities and asked for their help in putting it together, but it isn't there yet, and as such should not be sold to pupils as an equivalent to an A-level and certainly not forced upon them. We should be in the business of achieving the best for our learners so that as many doors open for them as possible. Pushing the Welsh bac on them or exaggerating its merits just to increase the uptake of it seems to be aimed at pursuing a different agenda than that of giving our learners the best future we can. It's effectively selling them a pig in a poke. Having said that, I do think that credit should be given to the Minister for accepting and taking up the recommendations of the committee. Thank you.

Well done, Michelle, for actually continuing.

Thank you.

Participating in this inquiry into the revised Welsh baccalaureate qualification has certainly been eye-opening for me, and some of the findings of the report were very fundamental. A number of examples of poor perceptions of the Welsh bac have been highlighted, for example 66 per cent believing that the Welsh bac is not valuable to future careers; understanding of the qualification by universities decreasing beyond the Welsh border; and there is major variability in the delivery of the qualification at schools and colleges, with some treating it as a filler, and there being a complete lack of consistency in timetabling across Wales.

It will come as no surprise, therefore, that we as a committee did note that a key issue is a lack of understanding of the qualification amongst parents, employers and educational professionals. Four years down the line, the Welsh Government still needs to explain in simpler terms exactly what the qualification is.

Will you take an intervention?

No, I'm sorry, Hefin. Oh, go on, I'll take an intervention—go on. [Laughter.]

I'm not looking to attack anybody at all. I just feel that the tenor of the debate is becoming wholly negative about the Welsh bac, when, in fact, the evidence we took was more nuanced than that. I think what Michelle said was wholly on the side of negativity, whereas, in fact, we saw a lot more positive views as well.

Okay. Well, with all due respect, I've taken the intervention and so it's not about what Michelle has said, it's what I'm saying. And with all due respect, this is what I found taking evidence. We met pupils, we met teachers, we met headteachers, we met parents—we met everybody, and, to be honest, the feedback really surprised me, because I thought it was going to be a lot more positive than it, in fact, turn out to be.

So, four years down the line, the Welsh Government do need to explain in simpler terms what the—I've said all of that [Laughter.]. However, this far in, it must be asked whether it is reasonable to be throwing more money at a qualification that is—and to be fair, it has to be said—strongly disliked by many. Indeed, despite the campaign, I doubt whether there will ever be enough understanding and consistency to make the Welsh bac a success. There's a lot of work to be done here if it continues. For example, you have accepted recommendation 1 and the need for a clearer statement to be underpinned by guidance that details expectations in relation to consistency of delivery, and accepted recommendation 5, but yet you still expect headteachers to use their professional judgment to determine the right learning programme for their learners. 

Clearly, there could continue to be a lack of consistency and clarity, especially with regard to universal adoption.

Will the Member give way?

Oh, go on then.

Could I just clarify that, when she's making generally negative conclusions around the Welsh bac, is she referring specifically to the skills challenge certificate, or is she referring to the umbrella, because all these other qualifications for the umbrella are being studied anyhow, so in what sense would you want to get rid of them?

When we interviewed the pupils themselves, some hadn't taken it because they'd been off-put by their friends who said the skills challenge certificate was one of the main considerations why they either didn't want to take the bac or found it challenging and difficult when they did. That was the very point that they made, but there are many other reasons with the Welsh bac: its recognition, teachers that weren't trained in delivering the Welsh bac—and teachers actually said to us during workshops that they would like to see the back of it. So, there was some pretty strong evidence that came from that. So, it's a multitude of reasons—it's not just one.

There is no reason why it cannot be achieved through the use of surveys, so I do wonder whether the Welsh Government’s hesitation is an indication as to some nervousness as to what the results will probably show.

In addition to evidence of dislike of the qualification by pupils, our work has seen that it's having an impact on teachers. Training seems to be inadequate; some teachers lack confidence in delivering it. Whilst you have accepted recommendation 9, it is interesting to note your observation that the skills and ped—I can't say this word, but pedag—[Assembly Members: 'Pedagogy.']—yes, that one, that's the one; I've heard Kirsty Williams saying it before [Laughter.]—of teaching the new curriculum are closely aligned and that they can be transferred to teaching the Welsh bac qualification. What this means is that we have teachers in secondary schools across Wales now worried about the delivery of the Welsh bac and the new curriculum. This is now being seen as yet another pressure on our teachers.

I really do think it is time to consider reducing the pressure, and for the Welsh Government to seriously consider the calls previously made by my colleague Suzy Davies AM to have a look again at the Welsh baccalaureate to see whether it really is suitable, going forward, for our Welsh students. Thank you.   

Can I now call on the Minister for Education, Kirsty Williams?

Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer, and thank you for the opportunity to discuss the committee's report on the status of the Welsh baccalaureate. I was pleased that the evidence gathered by the committee showed clear merit in young people studying the Welsh bac. I was glad as the Minister for Education in Wales, and, like Lynne, I'm glad as a parent who has two children currently studying two different levels of the bac as we speak.

It is a wide-ranging framework qualification that embraces the teaching of fundamental skills, and it enables pupils to become more independent, more critical in their thinking and more flexible in the way they work. It also provides learners with the opportunity to develop their knowledge and understanding of society, the community in which they live and an awareness of global issues, events and perspectives, helping them to become ethical, informed citizens of Wales and the world. Indeed, the Welsh baccalaureate provides the foundations for our learners to develop the wider skills and knowledge that align perfectly with the four purposes of the new curriculum and gives them, actually, a certificate and an accreditation for those skills.

Let me be clear: my aim is for all learners to be able to benefit from the Welsh bac and to gain the skills challenge certificate. I am, of course, aware of the differing opinions here in the Chamber about the values and the benefits of the Welsh bac, and, in its relatively short lifetime, it has been the subject of numerous reviews and changes. Let's be clear: the current Welsh bac and skills challenge certificate are still young and will continue to develop over time. At this point, there have only been two sets of results since its implementation in September 2015, although I have to say those two sets of results have been hugely encouraging.

But I appreciate that there are still aspects of delivery that can be done better. The way in which we communicate the value and the benefits can be made clearer, the universities' understanding of the qualification can be improved, and we must learn lessons from implementing the Welsh bac as we move forward to deliver the curriculum for Wales 2022.

The committee's report reinforced my view of these challenges. Therefore, I was very happy to accept the recommendations either in full or in principle. Work is already being taken forward to improve the guidance available, which will outline my vision for the future of the Welsh bac as well as the Government's policy on universal adoption, and that will be ready in the autumn. Qualifications Wales, the WJEC and us as a Government are working together to improve awareness of the Welsh bac through a joint communications plan, ensuring that clear messages are sent out on both the purpose but also the benefits of learners undertaking the bac.

Now, one of the questions that I'm often asked is whether universities will accept the skills challenge certificate. The fact of the matter is that the skills challenge certificate carries the same UCAS tariff points and is equivalent to any other A-level. More and more universities across the United Kingdom are recognising the skills challenge certificate in their offers, including 15 of the Russell Group universities. And, what's more, universities tell me and our seven network co-ordinators that the advanced bac gives Welsh students a competitive advantage in being able to demonstrate clear, independent research and academic skills, which actually lead them to be excellent undergraduates.

I've already made it clear in this debate that I don't share the wholly negative view that's been expressed by some in the Chamber, but, nonetheless, it was the case that universities did seem reluctant to give evidence to committee and express those opinions. Why would that be the case? If the picture is so good, why have they been so reluctant to speak to us?

As I often say in this Chamber, universities are autonomous institutions, and that is a matter for them, and not a matter for me. But, as I said, the Welsh bac gives students a competitive advantage in being able to clearly demonstrate these skills, and I know that this point will be reinforced at the joint Seren-Oxford event that will be held at the Norwegian church this evening.

Now, just today, Deputy Presiding Officer, I have been provided with a list of selected offers from universities that the WJEC has received that included the skills challenge certificate. There are over 650 courses here, whether that's medicine at Cardiff, physics at Exeter, computer science at Edinburgh, law at Birmingham, and, just to refute the points that Michelle Brown made, which said that it is not accepted in offers for medicine, within that list there are students holding offers that include their skills challenge certificate to read medicine at Exeter, at Cardiff, at Leicester, at Manchester, at Nottingham and at Plymouth. Now, I am more than happy for my officials to brief Michelle Brown, and perhaps, when she is considering the way in which she spoke to our colleague Huw Irranca-Davies, she could reflect on her comments about the nature of the qualifications and the efforts that teachers and students have put into achieving them.

Now, moving forward, the Welsh Government, Qualifications Wales and the WJEC will continue to work with UCAS and other stakeholders to ensure that information about how universities treat the bac in their offers is systematically collated and updated, and, crucially, is made available to learners, to their parents, to their guardians, and to schools and colleges. It's important to note that the committee's review of the Welsh bac started only a few months after Qualifications Wales published its own review of the skills challenge certificate in April 2018. Now, one of the main findings of the independent review was that the design of the certificate is more complex than it needs to be. Consequently, Qualifications Wales has established a design group and practitioner group to take forward the recommendations of the review, including the manageability of the qualification and the potential impact on learners' mental health and well-being.

We will also continue to work with Qualifications Wales, the WJEC, regional consortia for schools and our FE colleges whilst the work to revise the certificate moves forward, ensuring that we are providing the support for any emerging resources, training or implications that could arise from any further changes.

Would you take a—? Thank you very much for that. I'm just wondering if you can tell me whether the work of that group—and it was good to hear that it's looking at simplifying this in some way—is taking into account the new curriculum and the qualifications for that in due course, and what additional the skills challenge certificate will be bringing to students, say 10 years from now?

What's really important, Deputy Presiding Officer, is to recognise the group is a group of the independent organisation that is Qualifications Wales, and the Member will be more than aware that Qualifications Wales will will start its national conversation with regard to the impact of the new curriculum on qualifications in September. 

Can I take this opportunity to thank members of the committee for the report? We must now allow time for the recommendations to be implemented, and move forward with confidence that the bac works for learners, it works for employers, colleges and universities, and not just here in Wales but across the UK and internationally.

Thank you. Can I now call on Lynne Neagle to reply to the debate?

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. If I can just start by just saying that I made a joke or light-hearted comment in my initial speech about the grief that I get at home from my son on the Welsh bac, which—I'm not sure the joke actually landed terribly well in the Chamber. [Laughter.] But that was very much how I approached the inquiry, from a position actually of being very concerned about the Welsh bac and feeling quite negative about it as a parent. But I do have to say that the evidence we took did not bear that out, really.

One of the most powerful things for me was when we did go out to the schools and talked to the young people directly. I went to Crickhowell High—other Members went to other places—and what I was very struck with at Crickhowell High was that none of those young people said that they wanted the bac to be scrapped, they all had helpful and meaningful things to say—and I will acknowledge that obviously there were different views elsewhere, but I think that what was clear in Crickhowell High was that there is excellent leadership of the Welsh bac in Crickhowell High. There is a dedicated member of staff who is clearly passionately enthusiastic about the qualification and you could see the benefits that that brought for the pupils. But the problem is that we don't have that everywhere. And that is what the report is about—trying to deliver some consistency. So, I think that is a really key message of the report. We accept that there is benefit to this qualification but there is more work that needs to be done in how that is effectively delivered across Wales and I'm pleased that the Government has accepted the recommendations in the way that the Minister has. 

If I can just pick up on some individual contributions, Suzy Davies talked about hearing directly from the young people and, indeed, as she said, there were varied views, and I hope that in the report that we've produced we've tried to pick up on recommendations that address the various concerns that were raised by young people around consistency, around things like the compulsory nature of the Welsh baccalaureate. Hefin David, when you spoke you talked about the tension that exists between giving that freedom to education professionals and ensuring that there is consistent delivery. That is undoubtedly a challenge across the whole curriculum going forward, but I hope that the recommendations we have made around improving ITE, continuing professional development in relation to the Welsh bac, and generally the guidance, setting out more clearly what is expected, will help in delivering that. 

Can I thank Mark Reckless for his very thoughtful contribution to this debate? As you say, you started out with the committee when we launched this inquiry. We didn't actually specifically take evidence on the direct comparator with England, so I won't specifically comment on that, but I would thank you for your recognition about the skills challenge certificate, because that was a theme that came out in the evidence of the young people that I spoke to, that they felt it was a useful thing to undertake and also felt that universities were quite attracted by that mode of study, really, as a more independent way of learning.

I do accept, of course, that there is more that needs to be done in terms of explaining the qualification. It wasn't our role really as a committee to try and set that out in detail in the report; we were focused on trying to make recommendations to improve the implementation, and, as you know, we made key recommendations about improving the understanding of everyone, really—parents, pupils and professionals involved in delivering the qualification, but also, very importantly, universities and businesses. And I thank you as well for highlighting the fact that the Minister has clarified, again, that the Welsh bac is not compulsory at post-16. That is very helpful, because as a committee, we felt very clearly that the individual best interests of the young person should be paramount. 

If I can turn now to Michelle Brown's contribution—[Interruption.] Well, yes. It was quite negative, really, and I have to say—and I repeat—that I came to this inquiry feeling very sceptical—. It would be nice if you listened, Michelle, to the response, having spoken in the debate. Having come to the inquiry feeling very negative about the Welsh bac, the evidence that we took did not bear that out, and this is work in progress. I also didn't recognise what Michelle Brown said about there being no demand for the qualification, because that is clear from talking to young people, some of whom told us that they only got into universities because they had the Welsh bac, because they perhaps weren't as well suited to doing three A-levels, so they were doing two A-levels and the Welsh bac. So I think that we need to build on the positives in the inquiry. 

Janet, again, you were very concerned about the Welsh baccalaureate and, of course, both Welsh Conservative Members signed up to this report when we published the report, and it was an evidence-based report, so from that point of view, I am a little bit disappointed, really, that you've come to the conclusion that you have, having signed up. 

Would you take an answer to that?

By all means.

I hope I explained that in my opening remarks, which is that the Government's going to be in place for another two years or so, and of course we expect to see the Government act on those recommendations, but that doesn't mean to say that they're going to succeed. 

Of course, and we will have to monitor closely the implementation of the recommendations, but it was clearly the view of the committee that there is value in this qualification, but just that we want to see it being improved. 

I just wanted to pick up on one specific point that Janet Finch-Saunders made about relieving the pressure on teachers. Undoubtedly, workload is a continuing concern for teachers but, again, I think the pressure on teachers comes from how the bac is actually implemented in a school. In a school where you've got good leadership of the Welsh bac, where the staff are being given the appropriate amount of time to deliver it—. The pressure comes when schools aren't implementing it properly, when it's an add-on, something that has been shoved in between things. So, again, I hope that our recommendations about ensuring consistent implementation on this will be helpful. 

Can I thank the Minister for her further response today? It was helpful to have the information about the universities set out in the Chamber. As has already been highlighted, we did, despite our very best efforts, find it difficult to take formal oral evidence from the universities because they weren't keen to come in and give that formal oral evidence, which would have been very useful. And it's great to see that things are moving in the right direction. Of course, this is work in progress, really, and that was what the report also recommended: that we need to do more to ensure that all our universities have a really good understanding of the Welsh bac and recognise it fully. 

I'll just conclude by thanking the rest of the committee and saying that, as with all our inquiries, we will be doing our utmost to follow up on our recommendations and to ensure that they are delivered at pace. Diolch yn fawr. 

Thank you. The proposal is to note the committee's report. Does any Member object? No. Therefore, in accordance with Standing Order 12.36, the motion is agreed. 

We now move on to the Welsh Conservative debate on sight loss—

Can I raise a point of order?

A point of order under what Standing Order?

Standing Order 13.10.

Go on then. 

Under Standing Order 13.10, 

'A Member must comply with any directions given by the Presiding Officer', 

and you required Michelle Brown to withdraw a statement she made, and she didn't do that. 

Well, she did. 

But on a wider issue, the concerns on this side of the Chamber were to do with the fact that the things that she was saying didn't reflect what was in the report, and when Lynne Neagle, as Chair of the committee, was making the statement, Michelle Brown wasn't listening to what Lynne Neagle was saying. So, with the greatest respect, there's no wonder that erroneous statements are going to be made in the Chamber. 

I take the point of order. You've raised it, it's on the record. Can I just say that Members have a right in a debate to use that time allocated to them to help further that debate? It's entirely up to them how they do it. I did ask for an apology. That apology was there. It might not have been as clear in the way—but it was there. And certainly, there are a lot of people who do several other things in this Chamber other than actually pay total attention. So, I think if I was to start to say that people should be listening totally, I think quite a few of you would be outwith any of the Standing Orders. The points you've made are on the record.

We'll move on to the next item on the agenda, which is the Welsh Conservative debate on sight loss. I call on Angela Burns to move the motion. Angela. 

Thank you. I'm delighted to have the opportunity, Deputy Presiding Officer, to open the debate today. I want to begin by thanking Elin and the team at Royal National Institute of Blind People Cymru for their assistance in providing some excellent case studies and for enabling and illuminating and moving the patient panel, and I know a great number of them are with us today.

It's a timely debate because of the recent publication of the new performance measures, especially as sight loss is a subject that will impact many of us, either directly or indirectly, throughout our lives. I want to begin by actually thanking the Minister and the Welsh Government for listening to users and experts, and for introducing the new performance measures for eye care patients. It is great that Wales is the first part of the UK to introduce these new outcome-focused measures, and it should help health boards to prioritise patients according to their clinical needs. The challenge that we now face is ensuring that this new way of measuring does not deflect away from delivery, and that patients most urgently in need of surgery or assistance receive it before irreversible damage is done to their sight.

As our motion sets out, the number of people with sight loss is predicted to increase by, to be frank, a staggering 32 per cent by 2030, and double by 2050. Currently, there are approximately 111,000 people living with sight loss in Wales, and in the two counties that I represent, over 13,500 people are living with some form of sight loss, and approximately 1,500 people are registered blind. Let us just pause and consider what this means. In 30 years' time, around 7 per cent of the Welsh population will have sight loss. This means that they'll be living with the loss of one of the most important of our senses. Now, many of us in the Chamber, myself included, wear glasses to correct our vision, and isn't it frustrating when we misplace or lose them for a short while, and we can't see very clearly? Just think what that must be like on a permanent basis, and often with no prospect of being able to see clearly again, or in the worst case, at all. Think then of the long-term impact to a patient's mental health of having to accept that they're losing their sight, and then consider the cost to the NHS and the state of supporting a person with impaired vision or sight loss.

These indirect costs associated with sight loss cost the Welsh economy around £268 million every year, and according to the Access Economics figures produced in 2017 by Deloitte, the associated reduction in well-being and health due to living with sight loss totals £1 billion every year in Wales. And I've just talked money here. We've got to remember the personal cost to the individual. And the RNIB put it very clearly: the barriers people with sight loss face every day already create deep inequality, and it will become a national catastrophe unless we do something radical. The current situation shows that ophthalmology waiting lists have spiraled out of control, and one in three patients are deemed to be at high risk of losing their sight or waiting longer than their target waiting times. In Cardiff and Vale, this figure is far worse—almost 50 per cent of people—and across Wales ophthalmology is the second worst of all disciplines for waiting times.

I've met with a number of people via my constituency work and through the RNIB patients group, some of them sitting here, as I've already said, and I want to reinforce the message that none of these patients are criticising the hard-working doctors, the clinicians, the healthcare staff. When they get the treatment, it's great; it's getting the treatment that so difficult. They want to make sure that this is a better service for other people. And, Minister, it is these lives, these people, who are impacted by the decisions that your Government takes, and one of the key concerns is around appointments. There are waiting lists. And, of course, we all accept that waiting lists will exist for certain conditions. And, of course, success creates waiting lists. I thought it was interesting to read over the weekend that the procedure that exists to repair cataracts is now the most successful and the most popular and most universal of any operation carried out by the NHS in the UK. But this success comes with a price—that of more people being referred, longer waiting lists without necessarily the extra budget. Imagine the frustration; a world-class solution that is so universal that specialists can be dropped into countries with poor medical facilities and deliver sight-saving surgery, whilst in our comparatively wealthy nation access to cataract surgery is rationed in an inconsistent manner.

A similar Government initiative, again very welcome, in the fourth Assembly concerning glaucoma was very successful, but led to extra pressure being placed on clinics. And I've heard it's not unusual for patients to be left waiting for over four hours when attending their appointments. And it's not just the waiting time for appointments that was raised, but the issue of cancellation of appointments. A freedom of information request to Betsi Cadwaladr highlighted that, over the last five years, that health board has cancelled close to 40,000 ophthalmology appointments; 7,900-odd were in the last financial year. And I've heard patients say things like, 'I've had enough cancellation letters to wallpaper my bedroom.' We've been told about how people were actually standing there in the queue waiting to be seen and they've heard the receptionist on the phone to a parent or to a spouse back in their home saying, 'Oh, please do tell him he can't come in', and they're standing in front of the receptionist, waiting to be checked in.

We need to do something about it. Minister, I'm asking you to do something about it, because this is absolutely vital. Patients speak about how the loss and deterioration of sight has a huge impact on their mental health. It leads to isolation, anger, loss of friends. People have to give up their driving licences, which has a massive impact, especially if you live in a rural community. I was told by one patient, who used his local leisure centre to swim, that once it was obvious he was losing his sight, he was told he couldn't make use of the centre because he was a health and safety hazard. Unfortunately, sight loss is something that has a huge amount of stigma.

And I'd also like to point out, Minister, that not all patients are born with eye problems or have problems that are linked to the ageing process. I'm concerned that not enough understanding or support is given to those who experience sudden sight loss due to brain injury or other causes of rapid sight loss. I'd like, Minister, for you to have a look at your vision strategy and urgently address the situation. I'm going to stop right now; I'm not going to have enough room to basically conclude. I'm looking forward to hearing what everybody else says. Minister, you're doing well; we could do better. Please listen very carefully to us.

I have selected the amendment to the motion, and I call on the Minister for Health and Social Services to move formally amendment 1.

Formally.

Thank you. The contributions now are to be three minutes only. So, Helen Mary Jones.

Diolch, Llywydd. I'd like to thank the Conservative group and Angela Burns for bringing this motion before us today. We will be supporting the motion unamended. I'd also like to associate myself with the thanks that Angela's made to the RNIB for very useful and powerful information, and I would agree with everything that Angela said in her contribution and I won't trouble the Assembly by repeating it.

I just want to talk about two things, and one is to talk a little bit about the impact on people's lives, because this is a situation that happened in my own family. My father was diagnosed with cataracts; there were very long waiting times—this was a long time ago, in the early 1990s. We could not persuade him to break his principles and allow us as his children to pay for private treatment. He felt that that would be wrong. He voted for the Government in 1945 that created the national health service, and he wasn't going to jump any queues. But the upshot of that was that, by the time he was eligible for his NHS operation he was no longer treatable; there was damage under the cataract.

I don't always talk about personal experience, but I think it's important to do so here, because the impact on somebody's life, that loss of independence that Angela was talking about, not being able to read a book, not being able to travel without having to have us with him, and the effect on his dignity was, I think, the worst thing of all—that being dependent, having been such an independent person. So, I think it's important whatever we do, and, indeed, when we talk about other health issues we've got to remember how it affects people. I agree with what Angela said that it is really positive that now these issues within the service are visible because of action that the Welsh Government has taken, but I do think that they need more urgency than the Government amendment would suggest is there.

And the other specific point I want to make in addition to the impact on people's lives is about accessible information. If people are missing appointments and there is some pushback in the system saying, 'Well, it's not our fault that there are so many missed appointments', say the health boards, 'It's because people don't turn up', well, if you don't send a blind person information in an accessible format, if you don't phone them, if you don't get them to identify somebody they want to receive the information for them, they will miss appointments and that will have an effect on the system. So, I'd really like to ask the Minister today to have a close look, as he drives this agenda forward, at whether the health boards are consistently providing information in accessible formats. Blind people should not have to have their children and their grandchildren reading appointment letters to them—it's not appropriate—or people who are losing their sight. I'm, again, grateful, and I won't say much more, to the Conservatives for bringing this forward. This is a very, very important agenda and I really think we need a sense of urgency, because every day there will be one of our fellow citizens who is losing their ability to see needlessly, and none of us, I'm sure, can be content with that.

Angela's figures mean that the number of people with sight loss in Wales is expected to double to 222,000 by 2050 and sight loss and blindness affect independence and mobility, including the risk of falls, of injury, mental health, cognition, employment and educational attainment. It's therefore imperative that the Welsh Government and local health boards are robustly held to account over failure to meet eye care waiting time targets and the implementation of eye care measures.

Last October, the Wales Audit Office reported that NHS Wales follow-up waiting lists have increased substantially with ophthalmology the second worst of all disciplines. In April, the Welsh Government published the first health board performance data against the new eye care measures for NHS out-patients. RNIB Cymru believes that the publication of this data is a major step forward in making health boards more accountable for the delivery of eye care services. The charity has welcomed the Welsh Government's commitment to developing new targets for new or follow-up appointments according to the patient's risk of irreversible sight loss—something that Helen Mary sadly shared with us in terms of her own family. However, the April data showed that not a single health board is yet meeting the new Welsh Government targets. RNIB Cymru states that this reflects what patients in Wales have been saying for years, with thousands having experienced repeated cancelled and delayed appointments, putting them at real risk of losing their sight because they aren't getting the right care and treatment at the right time.

It is RNIB Cymru that is, therefore, calling for health boards to be robustly held to account, a major drive to redesign services and a strategic national and multidisciplinary approach to ophthalmology workforce planning. Action on Hearing Loss also states that we're still seeing failings five years after the introduction of the all-Wales standards for accessible communication and information for people with sensory loss—sight and hearing—in the NHS, that there is currently no measuring or regulation of the standards, and that this should be part of quality improvement by Welsh Ministers and NHS bodies to include patient experience. After all, the Welsh Government states its support for the social model of disability, which recognises that people are disabled by society, not their impairment, that we must tackle the barriers to access and inclusion for all, and that everyone must be allowed independence, voice, choice and control in their lives—nothing about us without us. The Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014 Part 2 code of practice states this,

'puts in place a system where people are full partners in the design and operation of care and support.'

And, finally, the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 states that public bodies must demonstrate the involvement of the people that services or activities are going to benefit or affect from as early a stage as possible. Legislation is only meaningful if it's implemented. Diolch yn fawr.

I thank the Welsh Conservatives for tabling this debate, but I am disappointed that it's a 30-minute debate as opposed to one hour, because I think it's such a valuable subject. The fact that people have gone blind whilst waiting for treatment—

Will you take an intervention?

Yes.

I heard what you said there and I think it was very uncharitable. When was the last time you tabled a debate on eye care, and did you have any plans to do so before today?

Let me just say, Darren, I think it's such a valuable subject, so I was actually complimenting you on that, you know? But, there we are, you don't know a compliment when you hear it, so—.

The fact that people have gone blind whilst waiting for treatment should be a matter of great shame for our nation. I therefore welcome the fact that the Welsh Government is getting its act together and investing in transforming eye care services.

RNIB Cymru have welcomed the new measures that will, for the first time, allow us to see the true scale of the challenges facing ophthalmology in Wales. The new measures outlined by the Minister finally put the patient first, giving priority to those most in need. It is now up to the health boards to deliver these improvements and make full use of the new guidelines. And I hope local health boards will actually deliver this time. The £7 million set aside for the new digital system for eye care is also most welcome. Hopefully Welsh Government can buck the trend on past IT projects and deliver the system quickly and efficiently. Once the new system is in place with direct referrals we should eliminate long waits for treatment. Until that time, we must ensure that the health boards streamline the referrals process as efficiently as possible. Swift referrals will help to speed up diagnosis and treatment and ensure that patients do not lose their sight due to long waits.

But there is still much more to do, and a shortage of rehabilitation officers for the visually impaired is certainly putting people’s safety at risk. We are not offering the best available treatments, some of which can actually reverse sight loss. And whilst we will be supporting the Government’s amendment today in order to recognise the progress that is being made, I urge the Minister to ensure that the next delivery plan addresses shortfalls in treatment and support options. I look forward to the chief optometric adviser’s recommendations, hopefully sooner rather than later. Let’s ensure that no-one else loses their sight whilst waiting for treatment and support, because the harrowing case highlighted by Angela Burns earlier should never happen, and it give us all an opportunity to reflect on how much improvement is needed in Wales. Diolch yn fawr.

Thirteen people lose their sight in Wales every day, adding to the staggering fact that 111,000 people live with sight loss here. Sight loss and blindness have a substantial effect on individuals. For example, over 14,000 people aged over 65 with sight loss are thought to experience one fall annually; 40 per cent of blind and partially sighted people have said that they are moderately or completely cut off from society; and according to RNIB, only one in four blind and partially sighted people work in the UK.

Every time I am back in north Wales, I am reminded of those affected by sight loss. Indeed, the town where my office is based and where I live, Llandudno, is fortunate to be home to the blind veterans training and rehabilitation centre; a hotel with rooms designated to visually impaired guests; and we have Mr Billy Baxter, our fabulous town crier, the only blind town crier in Europe and the second in UK history.

Now, it will come as no surprise to you, therefore, that I like to think of Aberconwy as a community that is trying and succeeding to be sight-loss friendly. However, I do fear that thousands of my constituents are being failed by the lack of appropriate treatment. Thanks to the new performance measures for eye care patients, I am aware that 11,310 patients in Betsi board are waiting beyond clinically safe levels for an out-patient appointment. That is the highest number of individuals waiting beyond targets in any health board.

Sadly, the trouble in Betsi forms part of a depressing national picture in which one in three patients deemed to be at high risk of losing their sight are waiting longer than their target waiting time just for ophthalmology appointments. This is particularly bad for follow-up patients, as RNIB Cymru has estimated that 90 per cent then face the risk of irreversible sight loss. However, it is likely that the situation is even worse, as the eye care measures only show the number of R1 patients waiting to be treated, not those classed R2 or R3. Health boards and you as a Welsh Government must be held to account for these figures.

Currently, there is huge reliance on locum provision. For example, 50 per cent of unfilled staff and associate specialist ophthalmology doctor posts require locum cover in Wales. That is more than the UK average. Clearly, there is a need for a nationwide workforce and an eye care delivery plan, to help ensure that demand is met and that health boards can tackle the crisis on a national basis.

With the numbers in need of eye care expected to rise significantly over the next decade, it is essential that action is taken now. Therefore, I implore the Members here today to support the motion so that we can all help individuals with sight loss across Wales, and, for me especially, in Aberconwy, where the problems under the care of Betsi Cadwaladr health board are significant. Again, my constituents shouldn't have to lose out in this important area.

Jenny Rathbone.

Thank you very much and thank you for calling me. The Public Accounts Committee has been taking quite a lot of evidence around this, and the quality of the evidence given by the RNIB was absolutely excellent. I'd like to pay tribute to the work they do—particularly Gareth Davies, who is the RNIB stakeholder engagement lead—in advising people on the significance of the correspondence they get from their health board, because it's really important that patients know whether the cancellation of an appointment is something that should be contested, because of the urgency of their issue, or whether it's something that's entirely routine. The concern that the RNIB was raising was that people are having their appointments cancelled almost before they get the letter of the appointment. Clearly, there has been a major problem at Cardiff and Vale, which has certainly caused me to have a lot of individual correspondence—

One of the things that I find in my own constituency is people receiving letters cancelling their appointments, sometimes on the day of the appointment, and, very often, those letters not even being suitable for the visually impaired. They're in small font sizes and things. Is this the sort of problem you're also having in Cardiff and Vale?

I certainly haven't come across the small print, but I've certainly had—this was some of the evidence that was given to us by the RNIB, and I can't say whether it was in Cardiff and Vale or not. 

I just want to make two or three quick points. One is that that the 7 per cent increase in the number of people needing eye care is not in any way the fault of the Government. In some cases, this is something to be applauded, in the sense that more people are coming forward because they realise that their eyes are not in the state they need to be.

Secondly, people are living longer, so, obviously, as we all get older, we have to start using glasses, and as we get older and older—I predict that that I will have serious eye problems just because of my family history. The issue here is how we organise the services to meet the increased demand, and I think that that is something that the Welsh Government is working on, which is why I will be voting for the amendment.

But there are also other issues that we need to do things about. One is that it should not be necessary for someone who has been seen by a high-street optometrist, who has identified that this person needs to see a specialist, to have to go via their GP in order to get a 'Dear Doctor' letter to get to the specialist department. That is a ridiculous waste of time of the primary care service, as well as unnecessary for the individual patient.

Secondly, new technology enables the ophthalmologist in the hospital to examine the urgency of the case of the individual without the need to have the patient in front of them. Because, with the health Minister, I visited a completely excellent optometrist in Pentwyn who I saw being able to send very high-quality images of the eye direct to the hospital specialist. That is a wonderful innovation, and one we should applaud, because it enables them to prioritise those whose cases are really urgent and need to be seen immediately because their sight is at risk as opposed to those who probably have a problem but don't need to be seen this week. So, that is another thing that's really, really important.

But the third thing that we've had a lot of difficulty on in Cardiff and the Vale is ensuring that those who've had routine cataract operations, which are done by the thousands on the day in the most remote parts of India, like Bihar—they do not need to go back to the hospital, unless there is a specialist reason for it. They can be seen back in the high street by the optometrist just to make sure that the cataract operation, which is a routine operation these days, has been a success and that there is no problem—

You do need to bring your comments to a close now.

Thank you, Presiding Officer, for calling me.

The Minister for Health and Social Services, Vaughan Gethin.

Thank you, Presiding Officer, and to Members who have spoken in today's debate, which I'm happy to respond to. As everyone has recognised, poor eye health is a common problem that can have a devastating impact on people and their families. And, as we recognise, the number of people in Wales living with sight loss is predicted to double by 2050. So, given the importance of eye healthcare, I do welcome the opportunity to set out the changes that we are making to improve services for people using them now and to ensure that they're sustainable and equipped to respond to future demand.

There are people in Wales who are still waiting too long for their initial treatment, and I recognise that is not good enough. However, despite increases in the number of people needing our services, we have seen significant improvements in referral-to-treatment times over recent years. At the end of March 2019, there were 218 people waiting longer than 36 weeks for their first appointment, and that's the best position since March 2012, and a 93 per cent improvement since the low point of March 2015, when over 3,500 people were in that position. But, importantly—and this is the reason for the new measures—we know that referral-to-treatment time measures only apply to new patients. Most ophthalmology patients need regular, ongoing review and treatment to ensure improved sight or to reduce the risk of avoidable sight loss, and clinical evidence suggests that approximately 10 per cent of new patients are at risk of irreversible sight loss compared to 90 per cent of follow-up patients.

Again, I take on board the points that Jenny Rathbone has helpfully made about the way we are trying to reconfigure our system to make better use of the professionals who exist on our high street, where people can be safely and appropriately managed outside of a consultant-led service in a hospital. But the figures that we've quoted and discussed in this debate are stark. Healthcare professionals and the third sector raised concerns that referral-to-treatment time measures did not reflect the things that were most important. And, interestingly, there has been lots of conversation about cataracts, and part of our challenge, of course, is that, if we want to improve old referral-to-treatment time measures, because you're on a waiting list initially for cataracts and yet actually it's clinically safer to wait with a cataract than with other conditions—. That doesn't mean to say you can wait forever, but our previous measures were driving us towards meeting a target without properly considering clinical need.

So, the old measures didn't capture delays later in the patient pathway and, as I say, could drive services to prioritise appointments for new patients. As a result, I listened to what was said by both clinicians and the third sector, and patient representatives in particular, and we've set out on piloting a new way of understanding what new measures could look like and how they could be designed. And, at the end of that process, I've introduced the new measures that I've recently announced. It's been devised to account for both new and existing patients, based on clinical need and a risk of adverse outcome. And the work has been fully supported by the vision cross-party group, and I do recognise and welcome their support.

And this has been a bold move for us because what we've essentially done as a Government is we've set out the areas where we need to do more in a much more honest way, because we could, frankly, have left the old measures and said, 'We're meeting our referral-to-treatment targets', and we could have essentially not been able to properly expose the nature of the challenge. And we are the first UK nation to do this. We regularly talk about: are measures comparable between UK nations? Well, they're not, because we made a deliberate choice to change our measures, and I believe it's not just clinically appropriate because of the advice I've had, but actually I believe that people in Wales should get a better service because of the drive to meet those new targets that we've introduced.

I'll take the intervention, then I should make some progress.

Thank you. I just wanted to say briefly, because I didn't have time to come in—I'll just declare an interest, my father has glaucoma—what wasn't mentioned in this debate was the way that some of the systems behind sight loss treatments are being privatised. My father has had a call from a private company in Preston to change his appointment from the Prince Charles Hospital in Merthyr to the Royal Glamorgan, and hasn't had an appointment in many, many months. It's not only him; since he's done some public work on this, people are being referred to services outside of their areas, because, simply, those particular appointments are not—specialists are not being held in those areas, so they can't be seen locally. What are you doing to challenge some of the operations behind this issue, if you have this new vision? Why are private companies involved in this process?

I think that's getting away from the topic of the motion, but we do use providers outside the health service to catch up. It's what we do in a range of areas in order to make the best use of NHS capacity, but the challenge is, if we don't make use of services outside the national health service, then the reality is that more people wait for longer. And, actually, part of the point of what we're trying to do is to have a measure that is clinically appropriate and tells us the honest scale of the challenge we have. We then need to invest in our service, both in system reform, but also the targeted investment I previously announced as well, to improve capacity where we're needed so that our system is in balance, so that we don't need to make regular use of services outside the national health service to make sure that people don't wait for too long.

I published performance against the new measure in June of this year and will continue to report back each month. The data shows that two thirds of patient pathways assessed at the highest level of risk were waiting within their target time or within 25 per cent of the date, and that's clinically acceptable according to the clinicians who have designed and piloted the new measure before I made the decision to introduce it across Wales. And the data does shine a light across the patient pathway and demonstrates clearly that further work is needed to improve services for new and returning patients.

So, health boards have developed plans to improve their position, and I've provided targeted investment against that to support development. And the actions they take will build on the progress that has been made since the launch of 'Together for Health' in 2013. Our approach is in line with prudent healthcare and the direction that I've previously outlined in 'A Healthier Wales'. So, there will be a continued and renewed focus on providing more treatment and care within the community and making better use of optometrists to ensure that ophthalmologists are free to see people who really do need to see them.

Our Wales eye care service delivered by optometrists leads the way in the UK and is widely recognised as a significant advance in the provision of primary eye care services and it's helped to reduce the backlog, and there is more to do. 

I'll turn to the closing, Llywydd, as I can see the clock is up. Over the next 12 months, we will consider carefully with partners what steps we should take once the eye healthcare delivery plan comes to an end. And reviewing performance against the new measure will be an important part of that. There is still much to do, but real progress has been made in Wales in the provision of eye healthcare services and I do, again, want to recognise the contribution of health professionals across primary and secondary care in the way that they have designed and delivered the change in services that we are now making. I'd also like to thank partners, including patient reps and the third sector, for the challenge and collaboration that continues to inform our approach: new measures that are clinically appropriate and a UK first with targeted investment that supports system reform. And we will now have much greater honesty and scrutiny about the challenge we face. Our target now is to deliver.

Angela Burns to reply to the debate.

Thank you, Presiding Officer. Minister, as I said at the beginning of my speech, the Welsh Government have been brave, but you need to be braver still, and there are a couple of very, very clear things that you could do. The treatments here aren't expensive. What we need is consistency, we need the feet of the health boards to be held to the fire to stop them from cancelling again and again and again, because many people have multiple cancellations—not one or two, but five, six, seven. That's the first thing. The second thing is we need to have rapid sight loss looked at properly within your strategy. People who have sight loss through brain injury and other issues like that, they're not really catered for, they need a different kind of support and you could do that. Be brave. I'm asking you to do that.

We also need to look at optometrists. You've actually said yourself what a great service they provide. I agree with you 100 per cent. However, they are not able to do two things. One: they're not able to prescribe, and so, if somebody comes to them and needs a prescription, they have to then send them back to the GP—waste everybody's time. There surely must be a workaround. The second thing an optometrist can't do: I don't know about most of you—and I am trying to hurry up and speak as fast as I can, Presiding Officer—but a lot of us will go to the optician that's near where we work. I live in Pembrokeshire, my optician is here in Cardiff, but if I have a problem with my eyes, he cannot refer me to the Pembrokeshire health board. He has to refer me to this one, or I have to then go and find myself an optician. So, why can't we just get rid of that, because that's an unnecessary barrier?

'A Healthier Wales'—it's all about prevention, it's about keeping people sane, safe and in an environment that they're happy with. For most of us, that's our home and with our friends, without having to have all the other pressures of life. If we want to keep our population in that, if we want to do this prevention, then what we have to do is keep people and give them the tools to allow them to stay in their homes. Losing your sight creates loneliness, isolation and all manner of mental health stresses. The world is a very difficult place to navigate without signposts. You've done an awfully good job so far—be braver, because this is one part of the health service that all of us could really get right, and it would help so many people for the future.

The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] I will defer voting under this item until voting time.

The next item is the Welsh Conservatives’ debate on the ambition of the ‘Cymraeg 2050’ strategy of reaching a million Welsh speakers in a generation. I call on Suzy Davies to move the motion

Thank you very much, Llywydd. Could I thank Members in advance for their contributions to today’s taster debate on one small area of the Welsh Government’s strategy for a million Welsh speakers by 2050? As you can see from the motion, I didn’t want to do a broad sweep over the strategy or do a deep dive. This is an opportunity to discuss how to improve the scrutiny of the strategy and additional ideas on how to strengthen the part of it that deals with small and medium-sized enterprises—by far the largest cohort of businesses in Wales.

I will deal with the amendments in summing up, if I may, but I will start by moving the motion and reflecting on how we could help our small businesses to access the benefits of bilingualism, by looking at points 2 and 5. We are now three years into the Government’s strategy and the Government says that it’s on track to meet its early years education target by 2021. But it is very quiet on all the other targets.

Regarding the issue of working with adults in work today, the work undertaken by the National Centre for Learning Welsh has primarily focused on the public sector. The previous commissioner had some success in changing the culture and provision of larger private businesses, and that’s a point that deserves recognition, but her reach did not extend to smaller companies. Mentrau iaith are very different in terms of their skills, finance, experience and ambition, but it’s not easy to quantify their success in creating more opportunities for people to use and develop their Welsh language skills in the workplace as well as in the community.

I’m not convinced that everything, or anything perhaps, that the Welsh Government has funded or supported has made any significant or long-lasting progress in terms of persuading our smaller businesses of the advantages of bilingualism. There is research to support the claim that a bilingual offer and a bilingual workplace are beneficial, but how is that being shared with our chambers of commerce, the Federation of Small Businesses, the CBI and other membership organisations, for example—organisations that are not full of Government appointees or first-language Welsh speakers?

Small business managers have goodwill towards the Welsh language, but they need incentives to act regarding its usage. That could be demand among staff or customers, it could be direct funding, it could be legislative measures, but we need to be very careful there, as the motion suggests, or it could change the voice of advocacy. I have to say that the first-language-Welsh establishment voice is not necessarily a voice that will persuade smaller companies to listen to the arguments in favour of welcoming bilingualism—'I'm sure it will be a good idea, but for other people'—unless they can see the benefits that are of value to them.

Business, in my opinion, needs to talk directly to business. That’s why we want to see language champions from within the business world: co-production, transition, learners who know how difficult it is to make progress with the language, and those who understand the bottom line too. Perhaps we will have a more bilingual population 20 years from now, but we have to think about the workforce and the customers of today too. Your 14 officers will have an uphill struggle, Minister, unless they are on the inside, and it is a shame that you have disregarded that by removing this part of the motion. Apparently, in deleting points 3 and 4, you’re not prepared to be scrutinised on your progress either. It doesn’t matter how many business officers you have or how many community organisations you support if the use of Welsh isn’t expanding in the workplace, or if we don’t persuade businesses of its potential as a USP. But, given your amendment, you obviously don’t want us to ask you questions about that at all.

Finally, I turn to the purpose of point 6. We often pass laws in this place that create rights and duties without any remedy for non-compliance. Unusually, we didn’t do that with the creation of the Welsh Language Commissioner; we gave the office powers of investigation, enforcement when standards are not used and rights are breached. But there is no such solution if the rights of a non-Welsh speaker are breached. If Welsh language standards are applied disproportionately so that those actions exclude someone who does not speak Welsh from having an opportunity, that person can only resort to the courts. We’ve all heard complaints when some public sector job adverts, for example, don’t require a certain level of Welsh when they should. And of course everyone can go to the commissioner in that situation. But the potential is there in the other direction as well, and so I ask Members to think about how we could treat both situations fairly in terms of a remedy when both languages should be treated on the basis of equality. Our proposal doesn’t undermine the rights of Welsh speakers, and if you want to say that this is not an issue for the commissioner, fine, but please say what your idea is as regards creating equal remedies in terms of unconscious discrimination.

The reasons I raise this argument is this: the workplace can be the perfect place to develop and use Welsh language skills. Look at Members in this Chamber who have never used Welsh before, particularly in the workplace. And look at the Assembly staff. I would like to see employers think a little bit more about opportunities for dedicated and committed learners as well as fluent speakers when they consider job advertisements, for example, because if we lose the faith of our learners, we will lose the Welsh language.

Thank you. I have selected the three amendments to the motion. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendments 2 and 3 will be deselected. 

Can I ask the Minister for International Relations and Welsh Language to move formally amendment 1, tabled in the name of Rebecca Evans?

Formally.

Thank you. I call on Delyth Jewell to move amendments 2 and 3, tabled in the name of Rhun ap Iorwerth. Delyth.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. As with any ambitious statement of intent on the kind of nation that we want to create here in Wales, be that a statement of a climate emergency or securing the future of the Welsh language, we must ensure that the ideal is reinforced in our actions and our political priorities. We must recognise that it’s no easy task to overturn the situation of the Welsh language, and it’s important not to oversimplify the scale of the challenge facing us in trying to secure 1 million Welsh speakers by the middle of the century. We believe that seeking to reach the ambition of 1 million Welsh speakers requires strategic action and firm responses in all areas, and the areas where this is important include education, economic development, community development, the status and infrastructure of the language, the workplace and the family. I would encourage Members, therefore, to support amendment 2.

The Government’s plans in terms of the Welsh language Bill actually were scrapped, which unfortunately reflects the general mess in terms of the way that the Government has tried to govern this term, with priorities and plans coming and going as Ministers change. This was a good thing in this case, because the proposals to scrap the commissioner's role would have been a retrograde step to 1993, rather than a step forward to 2050. While the demand for more transparency is to be welcomed, the emphasis now needs to be returned to implementing the strategy.

So, I have to say that I rolled my eyes on seeing the last section of the Conservative motion, which returns again the discussion on the role of the commissioner. I was disappointed this morning in hearing comments by the Conservative spokesperson on Radio Cymru, and they have been rehearsed again this afternoon in the Chamber, which undermined the purpose of this debate. It is mind-boggling that the priority of the Conservative Party seems to be to weaken measures to increase the number of Welsh speakers by enabling individuals to complain when jobs require Welsh language skills.

I just explained that there’s no reason at all to think that our purpose is to undermine the Welsh language rights and the purpose of the commissioner. What I want to do is to expand that to ensure that there’s no threat to Welsh language rights in an unconscious way.

Thank you, but, with respect, I would say that the purpose of the commissioner’s office is to safeguard and reinforce the status of the Welsh language, not non-Welsh speakers. I think that might confuse the function generally if it were to be done through the same office. But thank you for that intervention.

Perhaps it’ll come as no great surprise—and I would say this—when Conservative candidates in target seats publicly complain about bilingual signage and call for the abolition of this Parliament and, in that, any hope of increasing the number of Welsh speakers. I would urge the Conservative Party to please have a word with those people.

In concluding, I would also like to say that we do need to look at what needs to happen now. We need action from the Government rather than more dragging of feet, which is the basis of amendment 3. I think we have waited long enough for the introduction of the Welsh language standards in all the remaining areas, which are housing associations, buses and trains, energy and water, telecommunications companies, and so on and so forth. Where are they? I would urge the Minister to make a pledge in the Chamber this afternoon that a comprehensive timetable will be published before recess in responding to this debate. Thank you.

I want to start my contribution by saying that we on this side of the Chamber tabled this debate because we believe that the Welsh language is a huge asset for our people and our society. Indeed, the Conservatives have been very supportive of increasing access to the Welsh language over many decades. Wales has a long and rich history, and retaining the Welsh language is part of that. That is why we support the ambition of 1 million Welsh speakers by 2050 and that is why we support creating more opportunities for people to develop their Welsh language skills in the workforce and the community, and that’s why we’re supporting further use of the language in business. It’s crucially important that we all work together, with our communities, with our businesses and with wider society to engender confidence in using the Welsh language in our daily lives. As politicians, our duty is to persuade and convince people of the merits and benefits of learning and using the Welsh language inside and outside business, but we as a nation are going to fall short of the target of a million Welsh speakers by 2050 unless we can get people to educate the next generation.

As I mentioned to the First Minister a month ago, the number of those currently undergoing teacher training who are able to teach through the medium of Welsh is at its lowest point for a decade and, unfortunately, at the moment there aren’t enough teachers choosing to teach through the medium of Welsh. We must change that. If this trend continues, we won’t unfortunately reach this important target by 2050. In her response to the debate this afternoon, perhaps the Minister can tell us what discussions she’s having with the education Minister and how we can change this situation and ensure that more teachers do enter teaching through the medium of Welsh in future. It’s important that we persuade more teachers to teach through the medium of Welsh because, unless we can do that, then persuading the next generation of entrepreneurs and business people to do this will be even more challenging.

Research by the commissioner’s office has shown that the food and drink industry has shown that using the Welsh language had a commercial value for those businesses and it retains and attracts customers. It delivers that USP that businesses need. That’s why we want to see an oral statement twice a year in this Chamber, from the Minister with responsibility for the Welsh language, so that we can monitor the development of the strategy, because we can’t scrutinise the Government here in three decades on the failings of the Government today.

So, how can we empower the next generation to build bilingual businesses? I’ve touched on education, but we also need to work with businesses, and the most effective way of encouraging truly bilingual business places is to promote a network of business facilitators that are run by business people for business people, and, in doing this, we could persuade businesses of the economic and social advantages of bilingualism in the workplace, and this will also provide confidence to those businesses to develop bilingualism within their businesses.

So, Deputy Presiding Officer, in conclusion, we need to increase the use of the Welsh language in the workplace on the basis of value for money, and provide empirical evidence as to why it would benefit businesses. Of course, the future of the Welsh language lies in the hands of those who have yet to learn the language, and it also is our hands, who have a duty to ensure that the language does survive.

Diolch. Can I now call the Minister for International Relations and the Welsh Language? Eluned Morgan.

Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer. I want to welcome the opportunity to have a debate on the Welsh language, and could I say how pleased I am to note the cross-party support for the 2050 strategy? Two years have passed since the 2050 strategy was launched, and a lot of good work has already been done, and I think that people are aware that this is an ambitious strategy and a challenging strategy but one that’s entirely realistic. And what we’ve done is taken robust steps. We’re not waiting until 2050 to measure the progress, as we have robust steps on that journey.

Because the Welsh language is owned by everyone in Wales and by every party, and I really want to thank the Conservative Party for leading this debate. I want to make it clear that, as we propose the amendments to the motion, we’re not trying to undermine the constructive motion by the Conservatives; we genuinely do welcome the support. We don’t want to hide from scrutiny either, but we want to provide a broader picture that reflects the work that we’re already doing.

Now, a lot of the things that we’re doing include those things in the early years. We’ve increased the number of cylchoedd meithrin to start those children on the journey towards a Welsh-medium education, and there are 12 cylchoedd meithrin that have been established in the first year of the programme to increase the number of these groups, and more will open this year.

In terms of education, through the WESPs we have moved from measuring the demand and responding to that to creating the demand for Welsh-medium education in order to increase the number of Welsh speakers. We’ve provided capital funding of nearly £60 million for the early years. And, on top of that, we have provided funding to renew the iconic Pantycelyn hall and the Urdd facilities in Glan-llyn and Llangrannog.

In terms of skills, we’ve funded the National Centre for Learning Welsh to teach the Working Welsh scheme, which supports workers in specific sectors including childcare and apprenticeships. I think it’s fair to say that people from the private sector have also engaged with some of the courses that have been provided. This work is building on the centre's support for the further education sector during 2018-19.

In terms of technology, in October last year we launched the Welsh language technology action plan, which sets out our vision for ensuring that the Welsh language is readily available in the field of technology. And, in terms of business, I want to draw the Senedd’s attention to the fact that we have already appointed a network of champions for the Welsh language in the world of business. We’re funding 14 business officers across Wales, and what they are doing is offering and support on a practical level to help businesses use more Welsh.

And I do think that it’s important that we do underline the fact that we do agree that we need to strike an appropriate balance between regulating and promoting in order to help businesses, particularly small businesses, to be bilingual. Because we know—and I agree with Suzy on this—that it’s not the establishment that’s going to persuade SMEs to engage with using the Welsh language, but they may respond to the fact that bilingual provision can attract more business. We know that that's true.

We’re eager to ensure that Welsh speakers can obtain a Welsh language service easily, and of the same quality as English services, but then Welsh speakers do need to make use of those services, and that isn’t happening to the extent that it should be at present.

The role of the commissioner is vital, of course. Aled Roberts started as the new commissioner on 1 April this year and we’re appointing new members now to the advisory panel. We need to ask the question that’s been asked by Suzy, whether the role of the commissioner should be broadened. Well, the statutory role of the commissioner is to promote and facilitate the use of the Welsh language and we would need to change legislation in terms of investigating complaints on other languages, and we don’t want to go down that path.

Now that Aled is in post and that the Bill has been set aside, I’ve committed to looking again at the role of the Government, the commissioner and the main partners so that everyone is entirely clear as to what everyone's contribution is, so that we have appropriate structures to implement the 2050 strategy.

In terms of the Welsh Government, the strategy belongs to every subdivision within the organisation. A number of the strategy's main steps are in the hands of the education Minister, so the Government as a whole needs to be aware of the part that we all play. I can make it clear to Paul Davies that I and the education Minister have regular discussions about how we’re going to increase the number of people who go into teaching through the medium of Welsh, and one of the things we’ve done is to set aside £150,000 to try and encourage people to undertake A-levels through the medium of Welsh, and I hope that that then feeds through into people wanting to teach through the medium of Welsh.

In terms of amendments, we do agree with the first amendment, which restates a number of the strategic priorities that are already being implemented through our strategy, and then those from Plaid Cymru—well, I think it’s fair to say that, in the second amendment, after deciding not to press ahead with the new Bill, I committed to restarting the standards regime. I have started to consult with the main organisations that will be affected by the standards that are likely to be focused on next.

And, coming back to the cross-party point, there is support for the Welsh language, with surveys showing that the vast majority of the people of Wales, whether they’re Welsh speakers or not, are of the opinion that the Welsh language is something to take pride in, and we need to celebrate that. So, our message is that our vision for the Welsh language is an inclusive one, a broad-ranging one, and that we’re eager to welcome new people into the sphere of the language, and, in doing so, I am confident that we can move forward confidently towards establishing a million Welsh speakers.

Thank you. I now call on Suzy Davies to reply to the debate.

Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer. I don’t have a great deal of time, unfortunately, but could I just start by thanking Plaid for supporting some of our points? I look forward to you bringing forward your own debate in terms of the amendments that you have tabled. Now, it’s disappointing that you’ve deleted the final point rather than adding a new point. We, perhaps, could have agreed but for that, but I do believe that there should be timetable in place for standards, although we may disagree as to where that should lead us.

That’s why we are slightly confused by the Welsh Government’s decision to delete our motion entirely. Of course the strategy doesn’t just relate to this aspect of things. I am trying to analyse, through individual debates such as this, where we can hold the Welsh Government to account for its failings on certain aspects of its strategy. Today, we’re focusing on small businesses, not education, because it seems to me that the Government isn’t willing to provide the opportunity to scrutinise.

Once again, it has shown disrespect, unfortunately—I have to say that—for this Parliament by removing a substantial part of an opposition motion and, essentially, replacing it with its motion. Well, no: if you have confidence in your strategy, Minister, introduce a debate in your own time. Points 3 and 4 respond to your disheartening engagement with this Assembly on the progress of your strategy and its effectiveness. Why won't you report to this place twice a year on overall progress? Why don't you report back to us on the success or otherwise of the work of your Government with small businesses? What is your significant progress, Minister? Three years, and what exactly has your strategy delivered? Thank you.

Thank you. The proposal is to agree the motion without amendments. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Object. Therefore, we will defer voting under this item until voting time.

We have now reached voting time. Unless three Members wish for the bell to be rung, I will proceed directly to the voting. Okay. Thank you. The first vote this afternoon then is the debate on a Member's legislative proposal—health service management. I call for a vote on the motion tabled in the name of Helen Mary. Open the vote. Close the vote. For the motion 25, one abstention, 21 against. Therefore, the motion is agreed.

We now move to the Welsh Conservative debate on sight loss, and I call for a vote on the motion tabled in the name of Darren Millar. If the proposal is not agreed, we will vote on the amendments tabled to the motion. Open the vote. Close the vote. For the motion 20, no abstentions, 27 against. Therefore, the motion is not agreed.

And we go to vote on the amendment. So, I call for a vote on amendment 1, tabled in the name of Rebecca Evans. Open the vote. Close the vote. For the motion 30, no abstentions, 17 against. Therefore, amendment 1 is agreed.

And I now call for a vote on the motion as amended.

Open the vote. Close the vote. For the amended motion 38, three abstentions, six against. Therefore, the motion as amended is agreed.

The next vote is the Welsh Conservative debate on the ambition of the Cymraeg 2050 strategy of reaching 1 million Welsh speakers in a generation. I call for a vote on the motion tabled in the name of Darren Millar. Again, if the proposal is not agreed, we will vote on the amendments tabled to the motion. Open the vote. Close the vote. For the motion 11, three abstentions, 33 against. Therefore, the motion is not agreed.

And we move to vote to the amendments. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendments 2 and 3 will be deselected. I call for a vote on amendment 1, tabled in the name of Rebecca Evans. Open the vote. Close the vote. For the amendment 27, three abstentions, 17 against. Therefore, amendment 1 is agreed. Amendments 2 and 3 are therefore deselected.

And we now call for a vote on the motion as amended.

Open the vote. Close the vote. For the amended motion 27, 11 abstentions, nine against. Therefore, the motion as amended is agreed.

We now move to the short debate. If Members are leaving the Chamber, can you do so quickly? I'm now going to move to the short debate, and I call on Jack Sargeant to speak on the topic he has chosen. Jack.

Diolch, Deputy Llywydd. To start, I would like to offer a minute of my time today to a colleague from across the benches, Darren Millar.

Deputy Llywydd, I'm delighted to lead this short debate on the topic I have chosen—action for kinder politics: a route-map for creating kinder communities across Wales. In September last year I was very pleased to lead my first short debate in the Senedd Chamber, specifically on kindness in our political debate, and since then we have seen references to kinder politics in this Chamber from Members from across political parties, and, of course, the Deputy Presiding Officer herself. Now, that is very, very good to see. However, there is still more to do. We have to turn words into action because we all know—even today, even in this very Chamber—there is still evidence of the type of politics that we do not want to see, and we also see this in our wider political debate, often over social media. 

Deputy Llywydd, today, I'm pleased to outline a route-map for kindness in policy making as part of my commitment to campaign for kinder communities across Wales, and, in doing so, I recognise with a sense of obligation the need to tackle the biggest injustice and issue of all, in that life is not a level playing field. For me, kinder communities begins by recognising that empathy must be central to what we do. It means having the ability to see the world from points of view that aren't always our own. It must be our foundation and our grounding. It also means being upfront, honest and transparent as individuals and as Governments, so, if we do fail on certain things, people know that we did try our best. And it means recognising that our own economics have for far too long been unequal and the consequences extremely harsh. We've seen a growing sense of isolation, dislocation, insecurity and the erosion of hope, the growth of unkind communities. So, to deal with these issues, we can either beat the fire with fire, using unkind solutions for unkind situations, which will only lead to greater environments of blame and pain, or we can acknowledge the problems we have and seek to fix them with new solutions, kinder solutions.

It's why earlier this year I was very pleased to meet with the Carnegie Trust. They recognise, as many of us do here, that there are things that matter to us all: the places we live, our sense of identity and belonging, the people we live with, love and care for, and the way we're looked after, treated and supported when we're most in need. All of those things are linked to what people expect from the Welsh Government and from other Governments across the globe. [Interruption.] That's my Apple watch going off during the debate. [Laughter.] Policies to deal with those things must all be about emotions. They're concerned with our homes and communities, our economy and livelihood, the education of our children and the care of those in ill health. They should engage with our humanity and our vulnerability, require trust and sharing, and therefore always and everywhere engage an emotional response from the Government.

The work the Carnegie Trust is doing is particularly interesting and important because it's making us think more about kindness and well-being in our everyday actions as parliamentarians and Governments. Over the last 12 months in particular, they've been co-ordinating a kindness innovation network with people from across Scotland as well as North Ayrshire Council, and that's to encourage kindness through the local authority area. Their recently published report, 'The Practice of Kindness', is a must-read on how we build practical learning and what it might take to encourage kindness in our communities. Their extensive report delves deeper into why this is so difficult, framing kindness as something that is radical, because the Carnegie Trust rightly say we must be

'Radical in the sense that kindness is something to be discussed in the context of poverty and austerity, not as a distraction or even as mitigation, but integral to decision making. And radical in the sense that kindness demands rethinking the way that things are run and managed.'

When the Carnegie Trust quantified kindness here in Wales, they found that most people experience kindness in their communities and reciprocate this in their behaviours. Fewer people feel strongly about this, but still most people strongly agree that they make time to speak to their neighbours and that they can rely on someone in their neighbourhood for practical help or to keep an eye on their home if they were away. There's a similar picture with respect to public services. More than 85 per cent generally agree that people are treated with kindness by the police, social care workers and public transport workers. Less often and less than a third feel strongly about this. So, Deputy Llywydd, how do we make the public feel strongly about this issue and, perhaps most importantly, how do we here in this Chamber embed kindness into our work when we make policy, evaluate its impact and think about equality improvement? Because, as part of this journey, I want external organisations, charities, businesses, the third sector, and others, to work with us. It is important to encourage them on the journey, because the scale of our challenge demands rethinking the systems and structures that have dominated the way we work for decades. Now, despite this, as the Carnegie Trust have outlined, there are things that can be done at an organisational level to make kindness real practically, and particularly around management, leadership, procurement and commissioning.

Now, if we agree that to deal with these issues means linking kindness to well-being, then we must also recognise the role of the future generations Act and the role that that will play in creating these kinder communities we want. We need to go further when making policy announcements and legislation, to talk openly about the Act and its well-being goals. We should include kindness and well-being goals on the face of Bills, in our manifestos—from across political parties—and at the heart of programmes for governments in the future and governments now. The role of kindness in public policy making has a particular urgency as we enter the next generation of green and digital revolution. What is now considered the norm in digital technology and artificial intelligence has already transformed our experiences, in banking, retail, and communications. But as we look to go even further with that change—and, personally, I must say I'm very in favour of that change—we also need to ensure we shape the future developments around people's needs, and emotional needs.

Now, this is a direct challenge to those, including the powerful, in our economy and in political life, and some still cannot imagine that kindness works as a political strategy. Deputy Llywydd, once again, I say to them, 'You are wrong'. In the chaotic times in which we live, often the best solution is to step back and think. What's the simple outcome we want? Peace, prosperity, fairness, jobs, wealth or opportunities? For me, all our ambitions can be enshrined into one concept, which we now must all pursue, and we now must lead on here in Wales. As I said at the start, Deputy Llywydd, we do now need to take the words into serious actions. And that one concept is kindness. Diolch.

Can I thank my colleague Jack Sargeant for giving me a minute of his time? I too read through the Carnegie report, and was very pleased, actually, to see that Wales is a kinder place, perhaps, than many of us sometimes think. We know and see acts of kindness and civility in our own communities, but very often, we think that it's just confined to our own immediate area, and that's clearly not the case, given the findings in that particular report. And I think it is incumbent upon us as elected representatives and local leaders in our community to try to model kindness to others. We don't always get it right; disagreeing well is sometimes difficult, particularly in politics. And you're quite right to draw attention to the vilification, sometimes, of people with different beliefs—whether that's political or religious beliefs, actually—in things like social media. I know that, as a Conservative, I sometimes get grief in an unkind way on social media, and also as a Christian; sometimes, I get unkind words said towards me, and a caricature painted of the sort of Christian that people assume that I might be. But I do think that all of us need to work together in this Chamber. I'm delighted to extend my support for your campaign, Jack, and I know that my colleagues on the Conservative benches—you have their support too in trying to make this Chamber a model of the sort of kindness that we want to see across Wales, in each of our communities. And I commend you for bringing this forward today.

Can I now call on the Deputy Minister and Chief Whip to reply to the debate? Jane Hutt.

Thank you very much, Dirprwy Lywydd. I really want to start by thanking Jack Sargeant for tabling this debate today. I do believe Wales can and should be a place where we lead the way in promoting a kinder society, where there's no room for prejudice, racism, or bigotry. I hope we all share these aspirations here today, and it's great that we have had the contribution from Darren Millar, and others have stayed for this short debate. All of us must share these aspirations, about the need for tolerance and kindness in our day-to-day dealings with others, particularly as elected representatives in our community. I want to also thank Jack for making kinder politics actually resonate here since you joined us—the subject of your very first short debate—and you've made such a mark. You've commented on the fact that references have been made by Members, constantly now, actually, across the Chamber, and also by the First Minister as well. Aspirations, of course, need actions, and that's what you're calling for today—a plan, a route map to actually move forward in terms of a kinder politics leading to kinder communities. To persuade, to drive and to lead by example—we can't expect to engender kindness, tolerance and understanding in our communities and across Wales if we can't show it here in the Siambr, if we can't demonstrate it. And as you say, life is not a level playing field.

So, the Welsh Government is working to build bridges and promote understanding, increasing diversity in public life, tackling hate crime, extremist behaviour and intimidation, supporting victims of violence and abuse, safeguarding human rights, and supporting the most vulnerable people in our communities, such as refugees and asylum seekers. A nation of sanctuary is what we want to be, and that welcome is part of the kindness agenda. I know the welcoming spirit of the Welsh people is alive and well in our communities across Wales, and that was reflected in the Carnegie Trust report, but I'll say a few more words about that as well. It's very, very helpful that you have engaged with them, and I wish to follow this up. But we do see so many acts of kindness to others, from our neighbours running around people in need, strangers showing empathy and kindness to each other and to those around them. We have to cherish those, learn from those examples, and aspire to such a renewed sense of community. I think we all feel that in our constituencies.

I think that coming together was reflected over the weekend of 21-23 June in memory of Jo Cox MP, murdered in an act of hatred, but her legacy has been the Great Get Together. We marked it here in the Senedd and throughout Wales. I think we have to work together as a Government and with partners across all sectors—and you've mentioned the third sector, but public and private sector as well—to encourage cohesion, and that is a word about community and us working together to take root, because we have that proud history of welcoming diverse communities stretching back hundreds of years, but we need to safeguard that strength.

Our community cohesion programme is being expanded by an additional £1.5 million over the next two years, and that's been welcomed, and it's supporting small teams in each region of Wales, engaging more with local communities and public services. The police are very engaged in this as well, and wanting to be part of that development in response, particularly when tensions arise. So, we regularly celebrate diversity in Wales—International Women's Day, Refugee Week, Black History Month—and those are also occasions providing us with opportunities to value and spread our diversity and embrace diversity. I just want to mention a Windrush Day event I celebrated in Pillgwenlly in Newport last Sunday, an act of celebration and reflection including stories of the struggles the Windrush elders and their descendants have experienced over the past 70 years in Wales. Well, those stories haven't been heard. We've now had Windrush Day events across the whole of Wales, and it is so important that we learn from those elders and their descendants.

Of course we have to ensure that we are tackling hate crime, and that's where I must say, when I was formerly the Minister actually presenting and promoting the first hate crime strategy in Wales, I couldn't believe that we were in that situation—this was 10 years ago—when we're saying we have to have a hate crime strategy in Wales and we have to put money into it to have a national hate crime report. We have to support victim support—that's the hate crime centre—and raise awareness of hate crime. We are addressing this. It's come to the fore. We're wanting to address it on so many levels—in our schools, in our communities. But we must never be defined in Wales by those who hate. We are united in our determination to promote peace, and of course that's the Jo Cox message: hope not hate. I certainly gave that message on Barry Island when we had an event with three choirs, with the public, only a couple of weeks ago.

So, we need to make sure that we do work at every level. I think public policy is important and that's where the Welsh Government must take responsibility. We've got to ensure that respect, tolerance and kindness are defining characteristics of our schools, our communities and Welsh culture as a whole. We've got to tackle bullying online or in person. It has such an impact on a child's life, as well as into adulthood, and we must break the cycle and make sure that we can create those opportunities for young people. And I must say, I'm glad you mentioned online bullying, because that is such a destructive force now, it leaves people very vulnerable, with no safe or personal places to go, and social media can be very damaging when it's abused, but it can be so important, as you say, in informing and educating people. We are recognising the critical importance of keeping safe online, but teaching people the skills they need to live both safely and successfully in the twenty-first century.

I think this is where we have to recognise the important role of the third sector, recognising that those community and grass-roots organisations need our support. We've committed to working with the third sector to allow the sector to flourish. So much of the kindness is seen through volunteering, through caring—an activity undertaken not for personal gain. I think statistics show that about one in six people are caring for someone else, not just their own immediate family members. It's an expression of citizenship, an essential component of our democracy. But also, volunteering can help tackle the sense of isolation that people can feel, acting as a social building block when a group comes together for a common cause. And, of course, we are developing a strategy to tackle the experience of loneliness and isolation.

I think it is important, therefore, that we look at those ways in which we can support the community, the grass roots and the third sector in this way. As I said, I'm very pleased you raised the work of the Carnegie Trust, and Darren Millar as well today. I liked his point, 'Shall we learn how to disagree well?' That, of course, is a real challenge, because we want lively, robust debate, but we also need to have respect and tolerance. I'm particularly interested in the Carnegie Trust's findings in Wales, and I'd like to meet them now, as Minister, particularly looking at their report on kindness in public policy, because that's where I can see that there's some evidence of where we need to address these issues.

But finally, creating creating kinder communities across Wales is something where upholding the well-being of future generations Act, as you've said, Jack, is absolutely critical. We've got that Act with the seven well-being goals, and Jack has always recognised that, and indeed, it's now being recognised, not just mentioned—I think it has probably been mentioned several times this afternoon in debates. But organisations are taking on board, again, the seven well-being goals and the five ways of working and it's actually driving a new way of working in Wales.

All politicians have a responsibility to line up to the values and principles that Jack Sargeant has raised today and on many occasions. But I think, finally, I'd say that Jack's challenge is what he said to the powerful in our society. We have a responsibility, all of us, to speak up. Some of us have the power. We all have powers in our own ways, but those who have responsibility, as leaders, have got to take that power forward. So, let's take this debate, again, as another example of how Jack has enabled us to look at new ways of working and ways that we believe in, and I really do thank him for this timely and interesting debate, and I hope we can take these ideas away and put them into practice.

Thank you very much. That brings today's proceedings to a close. Thank you.