Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru

I call the National Assembly to order.

The first item on our agenda this afternoon is questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Environment and Rural Affairs. And the first question, Gareth Bennett.

Thank you. We are making excellent progress against our recycling targets. Latest figures show 62 per cent recycling for the 12 months ending September 2016, up 4 per cent on the 12 months to September 2015. We are No. 1 in the UK, we’ve risen to No. 2 in Europe, and that’s a great testament to the commitment of councils and residents across Wales.

Thank you for that information, Cabinet Secretary, and, in itself, yes, that is a good performance. The problem is that, as councils advance towards recycling targets, frequently fly-tipping rates rise. In the two years up to 2016, fly-tipping rose by 10 per cent in Conwy, by 22 per cent in Gwynedd and, in Pembrokeshire, by a massive 47 per cent. In the light of these figures, is it time for your department to review its recycling targets?

Well, I am reviewing our recycling targets, but only to make them even more ambitious. I think you need to take great care when you interpret the increase in the 2015-16 figures around fly-tipping. It is a difficult crime to detect, however I do want to see prosecutions where it is happening. But, you know, fly-tipping incidents in Wales had been steadily declining, and then, as you say, they did increase in 2015-16. But I think a number of changes have been made by local authorities, and it’s really important that we do take the public with us. But I think the increase that we’ve seen, in reaching our targets, does show that the public are with us on this one.

Ceredigion was the best performing local authority in terms of recycling in the 12 months up to the end of September 2016, with 70 per cent of waste recycled. All of the local authorities led by Plaid Cymru are reaching the national target of recycling 60 per cent of waste. Some authorities, such as Blaenau Gwent, Cardiff and Bridgend, continue to fail to achieve that national target. Does the Cabinet Secretary agree that we need to do more to encourage and enable people to recycle so that every local authority reaches the standards of Ceredigion and recycles 70 per cent of its waste by 2025? For example, why not create a deposit-return scheme for plastic, glass and cans, and a ban on polystyrene in all areas?

Well, 19 of 22 Welsh local authorities reached the target. Bridgend and Cardiff weren’t two of the three that didn’t. The three local authorities that didn’t reach the targets, I’ve now had the opportunity to meet with them, to see why they did fail to reach the targets. And I will be continuing to work, and my officials will continue to work with them to make sure that, next year, they do reach those targets.

You mentioned a couple of initiatives that we are looking at. The deposit-return scheme is one that I think we should give consideration to. But I think, for it to be really beneficial, it needs to be done not just on a Wales-wide—I think we’d have to work with England very closely, and I know Scotland are also looking at it.

Cabinet Secretary, there’s no room for taking the foot off the pedal on this. We have to target fly-tipping as well as recycling targets. There’s no such thing as throwing away—all waste needs to be disposed of in some way or another. So, there’s a cost in that. And, in Cardiff, they have achieved the Welsh Government target, which I’m very pleased about. And we need to keep going, because the landfill site at Lamby Way is going to close next year because it’s reached capacity, and that means any further landfill disposal will cost £80 a tonne. And so, therefore, there has to be that emphasis on getting the public to recycle what they need to recycle, and not put it into the non-recyclable bins. Will you join me in supporting this concept, that there is no such thing as throwing away, and we need to tackle every industrial outlet that is developing non-recyclable waste to get them to change, so that we can always reuse and recycle?

Yes, I absolutely agree with what the Member for Cardiff Central says. I’ve actually said to my officials I want us to be the No. 1 country, not just in Europe, but in the world. And I really do think that we can achieve that. I think that’s a very realistic target, you know, to be No. 1 in the world. So, we certainly won’t be taking our foot off the target. We do need to look at ways of encouraging people who don’t currently recycle to do so. I think officials recognise, and I think local authorities recognise, that there will always be a group of people that it will be very difficult to persuade, but that doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t try to persuade them.

Welsh Government is maximising opportunities to increase woodland planting and management. This should ensure there is an adequate supply of timber for the manufacturing sector. Our natural resources policy will be key in planning and prioritising use of land in the future.

Cabinet Secretary, you’ll be aware that the latest Woodland for Wales indicators report revealed that, in the year to March 2016, just 348 acres of new woodland was created, which is significantly down from over 16,000 acres that were planted on average in each of the five years to 2014. That step change in planting seemed to coincide with the creation of Natural Resources Wales, and many in the timber manufacturing industry have expressed concerns about continuity of supply, and that will influence some of their business decisions about where investment goes. What do you say to companies like Clifford Jones Timber in Ruthin, in my own constituency, that have raised concerns about this? You’ve indicated that there is going to be an increase. Are we going to get up to this 16,000 acres plus that we were previously achieving historically, so that we can have these adequate supplies not just for the next five or six years, but for 10 and 20 years hence?

Yes, I too have visited Clifford Jones Timber in Ruthin, and they raised those very same concerns with me. NRW is the largest provider of timber in Wales, and that does supply, I think, 60 per cent of the total sector requirements. We have to increase the amount that we have been doing. We’ve now got the timber marketing plan, which does outline timber availability. That is only for five years, but I think it’s a good starting point. I’ve also asked officials to make sure we continue to work with farmers, for instance, because we want farmers to diversify, and this is an area that they can do that.

Cabinet Secretary, you remember the visit to Pentre Solar in Glanrhyd in Pembrokeshire, where you and I both saw how local Welsh timber had been used not only for house construction, but also for skills and increasing skills in the local workforce to work that timber. What further steps can you take, because I think there’s a great potential for timber for house construction in particular in Wales, and also, of course, the growth of woodland helps with flood prevention in areas, carbon sequestration and, also, air quality. So, isn’t it now time for a further push from the Welsh Government on a more bespoke support scheme for woodlands in Wales, because of the benefits not only to manufacturing, but to the quality of life that woodland can bring?

Yes, absolutely, and it was a very good example of how timber could be used in house construction at Pentre Solar, which we both visited. I’ve been having those discussions with my colleague, Carl Sargeant, the Cabinet Secretary for Communities and Children, in relation to looking at different ways of building houses. I mentioned in my previous answer to Darren Millar that we’ve got the new timber marketing plan. I think we need to have a look. We’ve just set up a woodlands strategy advisory panel task and finish group. That’s going to be to look at timber availability, and one area they could concentrate on is in relation to housing.

Cabinet Secretary, timber obviously is a major element here, and we’ve seen in my area the harvesting of timber change because of the diseases within the valley area. Therefore, the replanting is important, to look at, as Simon Thomas says, not just the nature of the land, but also perhaps the opportunity for other businesses beyond manufacturing, such as tourism areas. What progress has been made in replanting in the Afan valley to ensure that we can get that back to where it was?

I can’t give you specifics for the Afan valley, but I’d be very happy to write to you.

Questions now from the party spokespeople. Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Simon Thomas.

Cabinet Secretary, we were reminded again yesterday, in evidence from Public Health Wales, about the fact that air pollution is a public health crisis in Wales, causing something in the region of 2,000 deaths per annum. Six per cent of all deaths in Wales are as a result of air pollution, which is second only as a cause of death to smoking. So, what is the Government doing to ensure that our efforts on air quality are retained as we leave the European Union and lose some of the most important regulations in this context?

Thank you. It’s very clear to me that we definitely need a concerted effort across all sectors to address this very important issue. We need some radical solutions and I’ve made it very clear that, within my portfolio, this is one of my top priorities.

You will be aware that we’ve just had a recent consultation on local air quality, and I will be bringing forward a written statement before the end of this month regarding the responses that we’ve received. I think that, by leaving the EU, if anything, we will increase our targets. I think that air quality, as you say, affects so many of our aspects of our life, including our well-being and our health. But, as I say, I think we do need to have a real concerted effort in this area.

Thank you for that response. I am pleased to hear that you are putting this at the top of your list of priorities, because there is nothing more prominent in your own portfolio that also has an impact on the daily lives of so many of us living in areas where air pollution is a problem. You’ve mentioned that this needs to be done across Government. The Public Health (Wales) Bill is currently being considered by the Assembly. At the moment, that Bill doesn’t include any reference to air pollution or to tackling air pollution as a matter of public health. Although you’re not the Cabinet Secretary responsible for that Bill, of course, what are you doing, in negotiation with your fellow Cabinet Secretaries, in order to ensure that this Bill helps you to address the issue of air pollution in Wales?

Those discussions have taken place, and it is obviously, as you say, something, as it’s going through the Assembly, that we can look at, because there is nothing more important, obviously, from a public health point of view, than air quality. As you say, we were reminded very sharply of that yesterday.

I hope that those discussions do lead to a little more joined-up thinking on that Bill, and, of course, the whole Assembly will get the opportunity to amend it, if necessary. But can I also return to the issue of Aberthaw power station, on which, when I last questioned you and the First Minister on this, I was told that Natural Resources Wales had now contacted the owners of Aberthaw and had asked them to come forward by, I think, now with a proposal for how they would reduce their unlawful emissions, which have been found so by the European Court of Justice. Can you update the Assembly on developments in Aberthaw and whether you are now content that there’s a programme in place to reduce those harmful emissions?

I am meeting NRW next week—I think it’s on the fifteenth—to discuss that, but I will be very happy to update after that meeting.

The Welsh Conservatives’ spokesperson, Paul Davies.

Diolch, Lywydd. Cabinet Secretary, your predecessor commissioned the independent review of the dairy sector in Wales, which detailed a number of recommendations to help support the dairy industry and increase its competitiveness. Following that report, can you update us on the progress that the Welsh Government has made in responding to that review and outline what outcomes you’ve delivered to make the dairy industry in Wales more competitive?

I think we have seen progress in relation to the dairy sector following that review, which, as you say, my predecessor undertook. One of the recommendation’s that came out of it was that we should have a dairy champion. I’m very keen to take this forward and, at the current time, we are trying to identify the most suitable and appropriate person to do that.

Another recommendation in that review was to raise the issue of taxation of agricultural businesses in Wales and to take a deeper look at the current regime and whether it hinders future investment in the sector. In a recent response to a written question, you said that the delivery of this recommendation has been delayed and that this should be looked at in partnership with other parts of the UK, with which I agree. Can you now update us on this specific agenda and tell us what the Welsh Government is intending to deliver in terms of outcomes on this particular issue?

I can’t give you an update on that at the current time. Those discussions are ongoing. Indeed, officials from the four nations are currently meeting, as we speak. I’m not sure if this is on the agenda, but this is something certainly that officials are looking at right across the UK.

I’d encourage, obviously, the Cabinet Secretary to put it on the agenda, given that it was one of the recommendations in this particular review. The independent review was also quite right in recognising that there are significant cash flow problems for some farmers within the dairy sector, although I’m sure that that’s also an issue for dairy farmers across the UK. Indeed, this matter is not helped by the fact that there are high input costs for dairy farmers and there’s very little support from the Welsh Government to secure funding for capital improvements. Will you, therefore, commit to evaluating the costs attached to dairy farming in Wales, and look at ways in which the Welsh Government can provide support to dairy farmers through additional capital investment support to help to improve the efficiency and therefore the viability of the sector for the future?

Yes, it’s an area that we’re looking at. You’ll be aware of the new small grants scheme, but we’re going to call that ‘farm grants’ so as not to mix it up with the rural development programme. This is an area, perhaps, where we will be able to help dairy farmers specifically.

UKIP spokesperson, Neil Hamilton.

Diolch, Lywydd. Brexit is probably going to have a greater impact on agriculture than almost any other sector, obviously because it’s regulated under the common agricultural policy and funded largely through the European Union. The Government, therefore, has to be thinking ahead very deeply about what’s going to be our agricultural regime after we’ve left the European Union.

I’ve been reading the minutes of the European advisory group, which the First Minister established six months ago, to see what their thinking is, and I was surprised to discover that agriculture hasn’t featured at all, as yet, in their considerations. That may be related to the fact that there’s only one member who has any recognisable agricultural credentials amongst those who have been appointed to it. So, I wonder whether this indicates that the Welsh Government isn’t, perhaps, terribly interested in the future of agriculture in our country.

Not at all and I think the agriculture sector would tell the Member how pleased they are with the stakeholder engagement that we’ve had. You’ll be aware that straight after the vote to leave the European Union I began stakeholder events. At the end of this month we’ll have, I think, either the sixth or the seventh one. Ministerial engagement is very firmly now set in our calendars. We meet once a month, so, during recess, all the agriculture and environment Ministers met in Scotland.

We are working very closely together. I mentioned that officials from all four UK countries are currently meeting as we speak, so there’s been a huge amount of input into the future of agriculture. During recess, I attended the National Farmers Union conference in Birmingham, where I held a debate with George Eustice, the UK agriculture Minister, and I have to say that the Welsh delegates made it very clear that we are far in advance of any other country with our engagement.

Well, I’m very pleased to hear that, and I can say from my own experience that, talking to people who are involved in groups that represent agriculture and farming, they’re pleased with the level of engagement that you have given them. But I don’t know whether you’ve yet had a chance to read the policy statement on Brexit that has been published by NFU Cymru, but one of the positive things that they say in there is that leaving the European Union gives us the opportunity to review the regulations that currently affect farming and agriculture, and they say that poor regulation is the reason for a lack of farm business confidence—and this is related to the costs of compliance, and time given over to compliance and to demonstrating compliance. These add significantly to farmers’ workloads.

So, without wanting to throw the baby out with the bathwater and get rid of all regulation, it is a great opportunity for us to review the effectiveness of regulation and whether it imposes disproportionate costs for the public benefits that are supposed to flow from it. Can the Cabinet Secretary tell the Assembly that the Welsh Government will look seriously at reviewing regulation and reducing its impact on farmers without compromising public safety and other objectives?

Well, we’re going to have to review it, because, clearly, when all of the powers from the EU come back to Wales, we will then have the opportunity to have our Welsh agricultural policy. Clearly, regulation—if you ask many farmers who did vote ‘leave’ why they voted ‘leave’, regulation is cited as one of the reasons. I don’t think it helped that the UK Tory—or some of the UK Tory Ministers were saying that we would be decreasing particularly our environmental regulations. That is not going to happen, and I’ve made that very clear—if anything, we will strengthen them.

But I think it is a very good opportunity to have a look at regulation, talking in partnership with the sector, to make sure that the regulation is correct. Again, that’s one of the things that we are talking about in our stakeholder events.

I thank the Cabinet Secretary for that answer. Brexit does give us the freedom to introduce new regulations and controls as well in areas where we might have wished to do so but had been thwarted in the past by the lack of enthusiasm on part of our other partners in the European Union. One of these areas is the live export of animals, for example, which we’ve been prevented from banning and also introducing regulations in relation to animal welfare, for example, the maximum eight-hour journey time for animals travelling, for fattening and slaughter. So, can the Cabinet Secretary give me an assurance that measures of this kind may be on the agenda as well?

I think everything is on the agenda, to be perfectly honest with you. We are wading through a huge amount of regulations and legislation just in agriculture and fisheries. In my own portfolio, there are 5,000 pieces of legislation and regulations. So, I think, you know, we are—. I have said that I really want to work very closely with the sector to make sure we have the absolute best policy. But one thing we have made very clear to UK Government, time after time, is that when those powers come from the EU, the powers are ours—they’re not theirs to be repatriated. They are ours from the beginning and we will ensure that we have a fit-for-purpose policy.

Thank you. The Welsh Government continues to provide significant funding for the Wales Coast Path and to local authorities for public access throughout Wales. I recently announced my intention to develop and publish proposals on amending legislation in order to develop a better and fairer approach to public access for outdoor recreation.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. I very much look forward to that widening of access, which I think is probably long overdue. It’s very important that more people in Wales, Cabinet Secretary, enjoy our great outdoors, which we are so fortunate to have. There are the obvious health and activity benefits, as well as appreciating the countryside more and, perhaps, being more environmentally responsible as a result. So, would you agree with me, Cabinet Secretary, that establishing the Wales Coast Path, which you mentioned, was a huge step forward in encouraging more people to enjoy our great outdoors? But there are some unfinished aspects to that, for example the creation of the circular routes, which were envisaged, linking local communities with the coast path, and also, perhaps, having a very high-profile annual celebration on the anniversary of the creation of the Wales Coast Path, so we could ensure it’s all walked by local communities and schools on that anniversary date?

Yes, I think that’s a very good idea and, of course, it’s the fifth anniversary this year. The contribution to the Welsh economy, for instance, I think is something that’s not always recognised. But I do agree that we should celebrate it.

As you know, we do provide funding to Natural Resources Wales to continue to improve and promote the path and I think there are also things we can do, perhaps, that don’t cost a lot of money. I think perhaps we could link up canals, for instance, with other parts of the countryside and then, obviously, we have the coast path that links into that also. Our officials are working very closely because next year is going to be the Year of the Sea. So, I think, again, there’s an opportunity to really promote the coast path. And both I and the Cabinet Secretary for Economy and Infrastructure are very keen to ensure that any future marketing plans around that help to realise the really full benefits of the investment we have put into the Wales Coast Path.

Cabinet Secretary, access to the countryside is something to be welcomed and hopefully it creates a greater understanding of what the countryside is for, which primarily is to produce food for us—to live off the fat of the land, as many people might say—but there is a serious issue about educating people when they do access fields and they do access the countryside that there are risks and there are dangers. In my own area of South Wales Central, only a couple of years ago several walkers sadly were trampled by cattle in the St Fagans and Radyr area. Across the UK, it is one of the biggest killers of people in the countryside: livestock interacting with people who aren’t aware of the safety precautions they need to take. Would you, along with your incentives to open up parts of the countryside, make sure that there is a robust education campaign and public awareness campaign out there, so that tragedies like those that have happened in my own region can be avoided wherever possible?

The Member does raise a very important point and I think it is about getting that balance right as well. Certainly, we’ve had about 5,800 responses to the Welsh Government consultation around that, and you won’t be surprised to hear that subjects such as those you have just raised were brought up in that. But, certainly, we can look to make sure that—. As I say, I am going to look at the legislation, and certainly alongside that we could look to have some sort of education campaign, as you suggest.

I support, in principle, extending access to the countryside for everyone. However, a balance needs to be found between the right of people to roam in and enjoy our countryside, and the needs of landowners and farmers to manage and use their land effectively. What discussions have you had with landowners, and organisations representing them, to persuade them to allow increased access to their land?

Well, I mentioned in my previous answer to the leader of the Conservatives that there has to be that balance, and those discussions are continual, really. But when I look to altering the legislation, I think that is another chance to have that discussion with landowners. But, certainly, I would say it’s raised in most of my meetings with the agriculture sector. Particularly when I go on farm visits, it is an issue that they do raise with me.

Diolch. Stakeholders have given me their assessment of the impacts on both economy and communities. I will invest in projects of good value to assist businesses and communities build their long-term resilience. Later this month, I will announce details of when and how the remaining funds will be committed and spent.

Could the Cabinet Secretary state whether it would be possible to adapt the programme, even at this late stage, in order, for example, to expand the use of financial instruments within the programme, providing further loan facilities for businesses in rural communities, which could, then, be recirculated in the economy post Brexit?

We did look very seriously at using financial instruments in the RDP, but they’re very complex. They’re very slow to set up, and they are very costly to administer, and we found it would take about two years to set it up, and then, you know, make the first payment. So, you know, with Brexit now coming down the track, I don’t think there would be the time. I don’t think it would be cost-effective to do so now, but I think there are other ways of using our funding that we need to look at very closely. I’m keen to get as much of the funding out as quickly as possible. And, as I say, I will be making an announcement later this month.

I’m pleased to hear the Cabinet Secretary saying that she understands the importance of making the most of what we have left of the European programmes currently in existence. In the past I have discussed with her and her officials the possibility of establishing a food production park on Anglesey. Will the Cabinet Secretary be willing to consider that now, as one of the major projects, investing in the rural economy in an area such as Anglesey, which could benefit from the funding available now?

Funnily enough, I was talking with my officials about food production areas—not just in Ynys Môn, but in other part of Wales—yesterday, and it’s certainly something we can look at. As I say, I’ve recently agreed the future delivery mechanisms for the remainder of the programme, but I will be making a fuller announcement because we still have £223 million of the programme available. If it’s possible, we can certainly look at that.

Cabinet Secretary, there are clearly many unanswered questions surrounding the hugely complicated process that is Brexit. In answer I think to a question from Neil Hamilton earlier, you said that Wales is way ahead of other nations at this point—I presume by that, you mean within the UK—in terms of looking at how we’re going to develop the systems after Brexit. Can you update us—? Can you explain a little bit more about your reasoning behind that? And also, what discussions have you had with the farming unions in Wales to make sure that farming support does continue?

There are many, many, unanswered questions. The magnitude of this work is huge, but we are grasping it, and I think the answer I gave to Neil Hamilton was that we were way ahead of the four UK countries in relation to stakeholder engagement. I think that was the specific answer I gave to Neil Hamilton. So, I’ve had many, many discussions with the farming unions, but not just the farming unions—the wider stakeholders. Because it’s not just about farming unions; it’s also about the environment sector, the forestry sector. We’re making sure that in our stakeholder engagement events, everybody is around the table. I was very keen to avoid silo working, so you’d have the agricultural sector working over here, and the environment sector working over there, and I think that’s why we’ve had such good buy-in, really, from our stakeholders.

Thank you. The food tourism action plan, launched in April 2015, identifies initiatives and promotional activity to develop Welsh tourism. It includes steps to develop food tourism as a sector and selling point for Wales, with Welsh food promoted at major events, activities and attractions.

I’m pleased to hear, of course, that the Welsh Government has made it clear that food is an essential part of the tourism offer in Wales. I recently had the pleasure of visiting Dr Beynon’s Bug Farm in my constituency, which isn’t just a working farm, but it’s also the UK’s first full-time edible insect restaurant, known as Grub Kitchen, and I would encourage you to visit because I’m sure, like me, you’d find it fascinating. Given that the Welsh Government has made it clear that food is an essential part of the tourism offer, can you therefore tell us what the Welsh Government is doing to support smaller, more unique food tourism businesses like the bug farm, and what is the Government doing to encourage more and more people to visit these sorts of attractions in the future?

You’re right; I did mention that food and tourism are priority sectors, and if we put the two together, we can see that food is absolutely an essential part of the tourism offer here in Wales. It provides, I think, a common point of contact. People come to Wales for the wonderful scenery; they also come for our wonderful food and drink. So, we’ve got the food tourism action plan. That focuses on the importance of Welsh food and drink in terms of the visitor experience, and I’d be very happy to visit the Grub Kitchen if the Member would like to invite me.

Cabinet Secretary, in my party’s Assembly manifesto, we called for 2018 to be designated as a national year of Welsh food and drink. [Interruption.] I’m still in the party. Easy, please. 2017 is the Year of Legends, so does your Government support my party’s call for a national food and drink year next year?

I’m not sure if the Member was in the Chamber, but in an answer just a couple of answers ago, I mentioned it’s the Year of the Sea next year, but we can certainly have a look—

Oh, right. The year after? [Laughter.]

I’m unsure; that obviously falls within the Cabinet Secretary for the Economy and Infrastructure’s department. I really don’t know what 2019 is, but I can certainly have a look.

Thank you. The provision and maintenance of public parks is the responsibility of local authorities. Our public parks can enhance the resilience of our ecosystems and help us tackle the impacts of climate change such as flooding. Public parks provide spaces for recreation, children’s play, outdoor learning and opportunities to improve physical and mental well-being.

I thank the Cabinet Secretary for her answer. I have to declare an interest as the species champion for the shrill carder bee, an important part of the Gwent ecosystem. The Cabinet Secretary, I’m sure, appreciates the importance of public parks to our ecosystem and to its habitats, and she’ll be aware I’m sure of the Heritage Lottery Fund’s ‘State of UK Public Parks 2016’ report last year, which reported that Wales was anticipating the highest percentage reduction to staff, as well as the greatest proportion of declining parks. No park managers in Wales expect to have parks that are improving in condition in the next three years. What could she say to reassure me that that is absolutely not the case?

As I say, it is an issue for local authorities, and we’ve made our views very clear. You’ll be aware that we were recently consulting on the natural resources policy—that closed on 13 February—and I’m getting ready to publish the final policy later spring, early summer, and this is an area that we are focusing on.

In our manifesto, Cabinet Secretary, Welsh Conservatives pledged to a community right to bid for registered assets of community value. I appreciate we don’t have that but, actually, in the Labour manifesto your party stated that you would introduce measures to prevent unnecessary closures, and to assist communities to take ownership of community assets themselves, where possible and appropriate. I’m wondering whether you’ve had an opportunity to speak to your Cabinet colleague, bearing in mind that a consultation by your own Government revealed that there was a lot of popular support for this idea, about when something similar might happen in Wales so that we can know what it looks like, and have the opportunity to support it.

Yes, I have had the opportunity, and obviously I was in that portfolio previously, and I know that the Cabinet Secretary for Communities and Children is considering it.

I think everybody agrees that the parks in Cardiff are glorious, and I was very pleased that the friends of Cefn Onn park, which is in my constituency of Cardiff North, secured a £495,000 Heritage Lottery Fund grant towards improving the park. Work is actually beginning on this this month. So, would she congratulate the friends of Cefn Onn park and the local authority in definitely taking major steps forward to improve this park in Cardiff?

Yes, absolutely. It’s very good to see this work being undertaken. I absolutely agree with you about the parks in Cardiff. I think that’s one of the things, when I first started visiting Cardiff as an adult; the parks are indeed very glorious and there is so much green space in our capital city.

Thank you. I refer you to my written statement of the 13 February. Welsh Government is already supporting improvements to existing access infrastructure. It is my intention to develop and publish proposals on amending legislation in order to develop a better and fairer approach to public access for outdoor recreation.

Thank you for the positive reply, Minister. A report by the Environment Agency in 2007 highlighted the importance of angling to the Welsh economy. It was estimated that the Welsh inland fisheries generated £75 million of expenditure by anglers, many of whom were visitors to Wales from abroad. Does the Cabinet Secretary agree that increasing responsible and sustainable access to Welsh inland waters, together with a campaign to promote Wales as a venue for angling, could bring immense benefits to the Welsh economy in the near future?

Angling is obviously a very important recreation in Wales and some of the most passionate letters I think I’ve received—I think one of them was from a 10-year-old boy, who was a young fisherman with his father. We are certainly looking, as I say, at the responses we had to the consultation and I will be bringing forward a statement later this year.

We’re blessed in Wales with a stunning landscape and extensive countryside and a great way of seeing that countryside and taking exercise at the same time is on horseback. It’s not just a means of taking exercise; it can be of great benefit to disabled people and there have been schemes across the country for riding for the disabled. Maintaining a riding establishment has become ever more difficult and many have shut. What support are you offering to riding establishments to get them up and running again, so that they can offer this facility to people like the disabled?

I absolutely agree with you that horse riding is something that disabled people can take part in. I can’t think of any specific initiatives we’ve got or anything that’s actually across my desk from anybody asking for assistance in that way, but I would be very happy to consider it if that were the case.

Thank you. I will be setting ambitious targets for renewable energy. We are working with stakeholders to consider what aspects energy targets might cover. I believe community and locally owned energy projects are important, as we want to see projects retaining economic and social benefit in Wales.

I thank the Cabinet Secretary for that reply. I’m aware of an NRW tender for a single turbine project in south Wales, which is an ideal scale, really, for a community project. The criteria for the tender really are prohibitive for community projects at that scale, requiring track record of delivery and several years’ worth of accounts. I obviously understand the need for due diligence and for there to be appropriate levels of assurance but I note that in the tender, there’s a reference to community benefits being expressed in pounds, which seemed to me to show the limited approach of that. Does she agree with me that we need to try and find ways, consistent with the need for assurance, for these small-scale projects to be genuinely accessible to community energy production?

Absolutely, and we’ve continued to encourage NRW to create the maximum possible local benefit from the estate, and we offer support under the local energy service to enable community developers to deliver on these opportunities. I am aware that there have been groups, particularly co-operatives, that have come forward and because they haven’t got that sort of historical, financial history, it has led to issues. I know that Value Wales have been looking at these specific issues and I have asked NRW to link up with them to see what more can be done in that area.

The Government has committed, from this April onwards, I believe, to ensuring that 100 per cent of energy in the public sector comes from renewable sources. Would it be possible to take a step further and have a target for the whole of Wales, and ensure that 100 per cent of all of our energy needs are provided from renewable sources within 20 years?

Yes, it’s certainly something that we can look at. We’ve got a debate next Tuesday, Presiding Officer, in Government time, around this and targets, et cetera. I was very pleased to see that target coming forward from next month and 50 per cent of that energy will come from Wales, initially. I do think we need to be very ambitious—pragmatic and realistic, but I think we have to be very ambitious—and I’m very happy to look at what the Member suggests.

Cabinet Secretary, we’ll be discussing the foundational economy in a debate later, and it seems to me that community energy projects and the whole greening of the Welsh and British economy are areas where we could really have great advances that would empower local people very considerably.

Yes, I absolutely agree with the Member. I think it’s really important that we do all we can to make sure the process isn’t as difficult as, perhaps, it’s been at times. Certainly, when I’ve met with groups that have got these community energy schemes off the ground, they’ve needed incredible tenacity and patience and I think we need to do all we can to support them. I think we have put a lot of resources into doing that, not just financial, but also that support that’s so needed.

Thank you. In our drive for a decarbonised future, we are fully committed to supporting more renewable energy projects in Wales. Our wealth of natural resources enables us to benefit from a wide range of opportunities, from major projects such as tidal lagoons to community-scale energy generation schemes.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. We know that the renewable energy sector has enormous potential to boost the economy and through efficient supply networks, any benefits can be spread throughout Wales. How is the Welsh Government ensuring that finance is available so that these projects can be taken forward? I’m thinking in terms, here, of direct support for community generation, as mentioned in the previous question, but also in terms of investment from external sources.

Well, we work with numerous companies to promote investment into all regions of Wales. In the renewable energy sector, we attract inward investment through conferences, through exhibitions, such as RenewableUK’s all-energy and wave and tidal events. It’s really important that we have Welsh supply chain companies on our Welsh Government stands, so that they can make the contacts, and that then supports their growth plans. It also highlights the depth of expertise that is available to inward investors. Just recently, as the First Minister—you’ll be aware—was in the United States last week, I was in Dubai. The Cabinet Secretary for Economy and Infrastructure has recently visited both China and Japan, and I mean, it’s not just about renewable energy—it’s about all sectors—but we’re making sure that we do attract that investment here.

I’m sure, Cabinet Secretary, you share my disappointment that the budget today did not include a positive statement around the tidal lagoon. That’s something that would be extremely welcome here in Wales. What further steps can she take now to press the UK Government to come forward with a positive decision on the tidal lagoon? Also, bearing in mind, for example, that we had a very good event here last night, at which we heard from Milford Haven Port Authority, what can we do to build a supply chain that’s ready, throughout Wales, to supply that lagoon when, hopefully, it gets the go-ahead?

Well, Presiding Officer, Members will understand that I am limited in what I can say about particular projects or proposals, and that does include the proposed tidal lagoon for Swansea bay, given my statutory role. However, you’ll be aware that we’ve had discussions—myself and Ken Skates—with Charles Hendry. We support, in principle, the development of a tidal lagoon energy industry in the UK and we will continue to have those discussions.

Cabinet Secretary, I’ve asked you previously about connectivity to the grid, which acts as a real stumbling block for many small-scale renewable projects to actually get off the ground. When I asked you this question the last time, you said the Government are making very good progress. I followed that up with a written question that indicated there had only been two meetings with officials and the distributors, Western Power Distribution. So, could you enlarge on exactly how the good progress that you informed me the Welsh Government was making the last time I asked you this question is actually translating onto the ground, so that there is a greater increase in capacity so more community-based renewable projects can actually have that connection and be allowed to go forward?

We have a significant number now of community energy-based projects going forward. I think we’ve got about 11, now, in construction. I am actually meeting with the National Grid, if it’s not next week I think it’s the week after, which will be my initial meeting, but, as I said, officials have had meetings also.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary.

The next item on our agenda is questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Communities and Children, and the first question is from Angela Burns.

I thank the Member for her question, and, Presiding Officer, if I may, wish you and women and girls across Wales a very happy International Women’s Day.

Our national strategy sets out the actions we are taking to support victims of domestic violence through the delivery, development and implementation of the framework. Since the Violence Against Women, Domestic Abuse and Sexual Violence (Wales) Act 2015 was passed, we have appointed a national adviser, published the national framework on training, and piloted the ‘Ask and Act’.

Thank you for that response and thank you, Cabinet Secretary, for attending the Mothers Affection Matters event earlier today. Because here we are, celebrating International Women’s Day 2017, and yet, today, we heard some harrowing stories and learnt of the deep fear of abused people who are reluctant to seek help because they feel their children will be removed. I’ll be absolutely honest, a couple of the stories I heard today have really affected me, so, my apologies. Because we should all be free and so should these women.

It costs far less to support safe mothers and far more when children are removed into the care system. Could I press you, Cabinet Secretary, to review the successful German model of removing the perpetrators of domestic violence and enabling the abused person to remain in their community, with the support of police, social services, and GPs? I would like to see if this excellent practice could be a lesson learnt for us here in Wales. We’ve been so successful in so many other areas in being the first in the world on things like children’s commissioners and so on, and I would like us to see if we can do something really radical, and perhaps learn from our European neighbours. Thank you.

I thank the Member for her question and the opportunity to briefly meet some of the people at the event at lunch time. Llywydd, no-one should blame victims who take the time and courage to come forward. We all know and admire the courage they show when they speak out, and what we can and should blame are the onlookers who know what’s going on and stay silent about these things.

In regard to the very specific question on this, the VAWDASV Act is one piece of the jigsaw; the housing Act actually does look at removing perpetrators from a property. So, there is a suite of tools that we do have, but I will look at the model that the Member raises and ask my advisory panel to give me some more thoughts around that.

Last week, I asked what was being done to prevent female genital mutilation and to support those who are affected by it. A year ago, on International Women’s Day, the National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children and BAWSO, supported by the Cardiff and Vale University Local Health Board, launched Voices Over Silence, and it’s a project aimed at doing just that. It is a Welsh Government-funded project that allows 16 young women to be trained as youth ambassadors on FGM to spark conversations about FGM in schools and in communities across Wales.

I’m really pleased to say that the project, last night, won the Royal College of Midwives award for partnership working. So, I ask you, Cabinet Secretary, if you will join me in congratulating all those involved in this outstanding initiative.

Indeed. NSPCC, BAWSO and the university and the youth ambassadors indeed are doing a fantastic job and I was delighted when the Welsh Government-funded programme was awarded the RCM award. It is a big congratulations from me and I’ve already tweeted to say congratulations to them, too.

Yesterday afternoon, you declined to support a Plaid Cymru amendment that would make it mandatory to introduce healthy relationships education in schools. I would like to understand why you rejected that amendment. How are we going to reduce violence against women in a permanent way unless our children and young people have an opportunity to discuss key issues around ensuring healthy relationships? And if it isn’t mandatory in schools then there is no assurance that it will happen and will happen consistently across Wales.

I thank the Member for her question. Yesterday, the Member is right, you tabled an amendment in regard to healthy relationships, and I did respond to you in that debate yesterday on the reason why we weren’t supporting it then—because we have a working group that the Cabinet Secretary for Education has set up; we want to learn from that. But you’re pushing at an open door here; it’s about the way we do this and introduction of it. I agree with the Member in terms of how it should be done, it’s just when we do that in the appropriate manner through the curriculum, and that will become clearer with the Cabinet Secretary’s statements shortly.

I thank the Member for his question. I’m very concerned that fees charged by letting agents are placing a disproportionate burden on tenants. I hope to be able to announce shortly how we as a Government propose to respond to this matter.

Can I thank the Cabinet Secretary for that response? I, along with several colleagues, most notably Jenny Rathbone, have been opposing letting fees being charged to tenants for several years. Currently, action is being taken in England and has been taken in Scotland. Can the Cabinet Secretary give an indication of the timescale for action being taken?

We are aware Scotland banned these fees some years ago. England will soon be consulting on their proposals. Their experience will help to inform the proposals here in Wales. I don’t have a fixed timeline on this, but I will encourage the Member, again, and, of course, Jenny Rathbone and other Members, if they feel free to submit to the Members’ ballot, it will be supported by the—

Already done.

[Continues.]—Government, if possible.

I, too, would like to wish all the women in the Chamber a happy International Women’s Day. In response to previous calls to ban letting fees at the start of a tenancy, your Government has claimed that renters would end up paying more in the longer term in regard to increased rent. However, since laws surrounding agency fees have been enforced in Scotland, the charity Shelter has stated that there has been no visible increase in rents, and the organisation easyProperty has also stated that, due to competition in the sector, it was unlikely that agencies would pass on charges to landlords. What lessons will you be taking from Scotland in this regard? And I would echo Mike Hedges’s question: when are we going to get this review completed so that we can implement this here in Wales?

Well, that was one of the issues we were concerned about—a transfer of risk to tenants, particularly in fees. We are more content now with the evidence coming from Scotland that that doesn’t appear to be the case. This is a piece of legislation that we’d have to introduce, so that will depend on introduction on the legislative timetable, if and when we’re able to do that.

Cabinet Secretary, can I begin by congratulating you on your resplendent buttonhole? Not only would Lady Rhondda have approved, but I think our former colleague William Graham would have approved. He would have probably conceded that you did better than him in this occasion.

The problem with the current structure is it distorts the market. We need these fees to sit with the responsibility of the landlord. It will be reflected in rents, but landlords would be able to get better value for money for these services and, at the minute, it really acts as the consumer’s disadvantage in having to pay, in effect, for the privilege of buying a service.

I’m grateful for the acknowledgement that, if we were to introduce legislation, the Member may even support it as we move through with the passage of that. Look, Members, I hope to be able to announce shortly how the Government propose to respond to this matter. I will bring that to the Chamber accordingly.

Cabinet Secretary, Wales has been the trailblazer in so many issues, so it’s doubly disappointing that, on the issue of abolishing letting agent fees, we are so far behind the rest of Britain. Letting agency fees make it near impossible for many families to enter the private rented sector and increases the demand for social housing. Cabinet Secretary, there is absolutely no evidence that abolishing fees will push up rents, so when will your Government follow the rest of Britain and abolish these punitive fees?

I refer the Member to my last response.

I’d just like to add my voice on the urgency of this matter. Not only are students being asked to pay £150 to simply take the property off the market while they sort out the tenancy contract, which may never occur, but single people on housing benefits, people who are part of the Supporting People programme on employment support allowance, are having to pay for these fees out of the money they’re supposed to be using for food, because they cannot get housing benefit to cover these fees. So, this is a really, really urgent matter, and I hope I can impress on you that we need to get on with it.

The Member regularly meets me to talk about these very issues. I want to make good law in Wales, Llywydd. I will not be rushed into it. However, I will give it careful consideration on the effectiveness, a tailored approach for the needs in Wales, and that the capability to enforce this is in place. But I will bring a statement back to the Chamber.

Questions now from the party spokespeople. Welsh Conservatives spokesperson, Mark Isherwood.

Diolch, Lywydd. As you consider the future for building resilient communities as the changes you’ve announced go forward, a lot has been happening with local area co-ordination, supporting residents and communities to, quote, ‘get a life, not a service’, driving collaboration between local people, families, communities and organisations to build something bigger and more sustainable alongside the people and the communities themselves. What consideration have you given or will you give to the conversations around local area co-ordination that started in Monmouth in 2013?

My team have already started a discussion with the local service delivery boards, which were, effectively, the operations management of Communities First. That is also expanding now to community groups and other interested agencies, and I’m sure my team would be delighted to look at the proposals the Member has raised with me today.

Further—that was just the start, because local area co-ordinators in Swansea are working on the principle of getting to know people, their families, and communities, to build their vision for a good life, to stay strong and connected, and to feel safer and more confident for the future. Again, could you consider the work that’s been developed in a number of local authorities, with cross-party support, in many parts of Wales?

Indeed. I think we shouldn’t close the door on community engagement in any way. We should think about how best effective support for communities can be delivered with communities, not to them.

Well, thank you, and the biggie—it’s not in Wales, it’s in Derby, because local area co-ordination in the UK began in Derby in 2012, building on the very successful model implemented in Australia, which provides evidence of positive outcomes for citizens and savings. In Derbyshire, an independent evaluation by Derby university over 10 to 12 months found savings of £800,000 for the health and social care economy and also found that this had introduced and built relationships, established trust, worked to the person, using people strengths, and built connections with families and citizens to create solutions for those communities. This convinced the local authority and NHS there to invest and expand to all 17 council wards. So, if a project that has 50 people can improve lives, reconnect communities, and save £800,000, will you give serious consideration to how this model could be embraced here?

Thank you. I was slightly relieved, because I thought the Member was going to invite me for a trip with him to Derby, but I’m glad he didn’t do that, because I would hate to refuse him on the floor. But I think the Member’s got a really interesting point there about looking at what works in communities, and it’s something that I will ask my team to look at closely. We have got some already effective programmes working in Wales that meet the demands of communities with communities. A Derby or Australian model—it’d be something that I’d be very interested to look at.

UKIP spokesperson, Michelle Brown.

Thank you, Presiding Officer. Until 1970, thousands of children from across the UK were forcibly deported to countries across the Commonwealth as part of an unconscionable governmental policy that tore young children away from their families and sent them across the globe to be used as cheap labour, to be neglected and sometimes abused. What measures have you taken to ascertain how many Welsh children were deported under the child migration programme since the 1950s, many of whom may still be alive today?

We are working very closely with the UK Government in terms of the commission around abused children. I understand my team have already started discussions to talk about children who were sent to different countries and what those numbers look like. But there is an operational helpline for people who wish to disclose historic abuse; they are able to talk to people in this country now.

Okay. Thank you for that answer, Cabinet Secretary. The children’s lives were totally torn apart, and they were torn away from their families. What support are you able to offer to try and reunite them with those families?

Well, of course, the first port of call, really, is for the disclosure or contact by these young—older people now, but when they were young and sent off to other countries, it must have been very frightening for most of those individuals. We have professionally trained individuals to deal with those contact points, subject to people coming forward.

Thank you. I’m very pleased to hear that, Cabinet Secretary. I’m sure you’re aware that the alleged sexual abuse of children deported under the programme is currently being investigated by the independent inquiry into child sexual abuse, as part of their investigation into the protection of children outside the UK. What input will you be having into that investigation?

My team meets with the officials of that independent inquiry on a regular basis, and we supply all information that’s relative to that inquiry. We will help and support them do their job.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Bethan Jenkins.

Cabinet Secretary, last summer, the very first question I asked you was about the data collection and publishing in relation to anti-poverty schemes, which was a key recommendation of the Communities, Equality and Local Government Committee in the previous Assembly. Can you tell me what progress is being made on this, and when we can expect to see better data collection and measurement?

All the issues that we’ve introduced, in terms of performance and data measurement, are around the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015, and we’ll be judged in the future on the performance of that. The indicators of that Act are important, to make sure that we are delivering for Wales what we say we’re going to deliver, in turning communities around in a positive way.

I appreciate what you say in relation to that, but, of course, we’ve still got many schemes that are based on current data and past data. And I’ve been speaking recently to a range of organisations, which have told me that they were unable to find data on outcomes for 29 out of 35 European social fund community funded programmes since 2007, despite funding being recently extended to 2020. So, since there is still a clear lack of measurable data, what was the basis for extending this particular funding?

Well, I’m not aware of the particular programmes that the Member raises with me today, but if she’d like to give me some more detail, I will give her a fuller response to that comment. The issue around the 2020 deadline is that the European funding is available until 2020, we are aware. And we will continue to draw down that as long as we possibly can.

One of those projects was Communities for Work, and I’ve raised this many times with you, not only here, but in committee also. So, I think that’s one example that you could, potentially, look at and get back to me on. But, with regard to the future of your anti-poverty strategies more generally, I have had it also put to me that the problem with many schemes in the past is that they don’t measure the long-term outcomes, and actually end up with data that can be misleading. So, for example, somebody who gets a job via the Communities for Work programme is counted as a success, in and of itself, regardless of whether they’re still in that job in a few weeks’ time. But we all know poverty of people in work remains a huge problem. So, how is that particular scheme and others like it judged a success, when I’ve just outlined that it’s very hard for you to understand whether they’re in it for a week, or a fortnight, or a month, after they actually get that particular work placement?

I recognise the Member’s point. I would say that the access to work is one element of success. The long-term success is about making sure that we can sustain employment. But the experience that people go through on the course itself is a very core skill for those individuals, to grow into the opportunities to get into work in the first place. So, one output of getting a job and sustaining that is important, but there are other aspects of that course that are important as well. I will write to the Member with details of that. But, if she wishes to furnish me with the full detail of her question, I’m more than happy to ask my team to respond to her.

I thank the Member for her question. Since publication of the financial inclusion delivery plan in December 2016, we have progressed many of the actions, by working with partner organisations across all sectors. An annual update will be published in December 2017, setting out the progress we’ve made.

Thank you very much for that answer. As part of your financial inclusion strategy, credit unions are required to provide outreach services and education, such as school savers clubs. But when I introduced the Financial Education and Inclusion (Wales) Bill, one of the key things we identified after consultation was the availability of these services throughout Wales. There would be some schools that will be amazing at doing it, and a school down the road that wouldn’t have anything at all. What can you assure me will be done to work with credit unions, so that they are not struggling to provide these services, when, potentially, funding for them could be reduced? We need to ensure that organisations that go into schools can do so across the board, as opposed to just having expertise in one school and not in the other.

Yes, of course. I think consistency is really important. The professionalism of the service is important too. We’ve done a lot of work with credit unions. Credit unions have provided £20.4 million worth of loans to more than 25,000 financially excluded members between April 2014 and September 2016. The latest funding of £422,000 was made available in 2017-18, which will help credit unions continue the financial support for excluded members and deliver action plans within the financial inclusion strategy.

I will consider the Member’s point in regard to consistency in areas and see what advice comes back. But I did visit a great credit union in Jayne Bryant’s constituency in Pill only a few weeks ago where the young people were starting to save for fantastic things that they wanted to buy for the future.

The financial inclusion plan states that its vision is for a Wales where, amongst other things, everyone can

readily access their own money, whether by automated or over-the-counter means.’

That’s a quote from it. Tomorrow, I have finally managed to get a meeting with the HSBC bosses in Maesteg, where they’re planning to close their branch there. I appreciate you can’t comment on individual potential closures, but I do want to be able to tell them what pressure you can bring to bear on them, so that they take notice of your financial inclusion plan, particularly in areas where the cumulative effect of closures has a disproportionate effect on individual communities, perhaps who aren’t even well linked to broadband.

Suzy Davies, you can take from me my support for your meeting tomorrow with HSBC. Tell them that I hope that they can continue to support your community and many communities across Wales. A bank is a very organised centrepiece of a community, and we should continue, as much as we can, to encourage them to stay in the communities that you represent and I represent.

I thank the Member for Ogmore for his question. We have assessed the impact in Wales of the UK Government’s welfare reforms being introduced between 2015-16 and 2019-20. Welsh households will lose an average of 1.6 per cent of their income. That’s around £460 a year, equivalent to £600 million a year in Wales as a whole.

I thank the Cabinet Secretary for that answer and for clarifying the impact. He will know that, a year ago, before the last March budget, the then Secretary of State for Work and Pensions resigned over the then pending cuts to personal independence payments—the PIPs—arguing that the cuts were indefensible in a budget that benefitted higher-earning taxpayers. And in resigning, he said:

There has been too much emphasis on money saving exercises and not enough awareness from the Treasury, in particular, that the government’s vision of a new welfare-to-work system could not be repeatedly salami-sliced.’

This year, there is further tightening of the PIP regime through a statutory instrument, rather than on the floor of the Commons in full public view. Some Conservative MPs have expressed deep disquiet over this, not least after a Minister said he wanted to focus on the ‘really disabled’, for which he has subsequently apologised. So, will the Cabinet Secretary commission an up-to-date examination of the impact of these and other very recent UK policy changes on people with disabilities, and on rates of poverty in Wales, perhaps through the office of the auditor general, so that we can assess the damage to individuals and communities, and with that evidence, present the UK Government with the true impact of these policies?

I thank the Member for his question. I did speak to the Minister of State for Disabled People, and she wrote to me following her announcement stating that this was not a policy change in regard to payments, and it would not result in any personal independent payment claimant receiving a reduction in the amount of PIP previously awarded to them. However, it does appear that the UK Government is seeking to overturn the upper tribunal judgment, which would increase eligibility for PIP. I’ve asked my officials to follow up with her department, to seek clarity around that, and the impacts for people with disabilities and health conditions here in Wales.

A number of organisations have published comprehensive analysis, and academics and Government, on the impact of UK welfare reform on Wales. I’d like to ask the Cabinet Secretary—not going against the spirit of what the Member for Ogmore said—but perhaps we can go beyond analysing the impact to seeking solutions made here in Wales. Will the Cabinet Secretary therefore commit to publish a Welsh Government White Paper on creating a strong Welsh social safety net? This could include looking at how we could maximise powers that are already in competence, looking at strengthening partnership with local government and other service providers and maybe, dare I say, even, looking to the future, the possibility of transfer of certain social protection responsibilities from Westminster to Wales. So, will he commit to publishing a Welsh Government White Paper for a new humane Welsh approach to social security?

We have undertaken work about the risks to the UK welfare system in Wales. I’m sure that the UK Government would be delighted to transfer the risk to Wales, and they have done in the past around council tax benefits, where we were pushed some money across from the M4, but not enough, and I’m sure they will continue to do that. What we are seeking to do is maximise the support for people who need that in Wales and we’ll continue to do so in the future.

Cabinet Secretary, I’ve raised, previously, concerns with you over the impact of the Westminster Government’s changes to the local housing allowance from 2019 and the impact that that will have on Wales, compounded, I think you’ll agree with me, by the disgraceful decision that was taken last week to remove housing benefits for young people between the ages of 18 and 21.

A study that was commissioned by Merthyr Valleys Homes looked at the level of frozen local housing allowance in comparison to the average private rental rate in Merthyr Tydfil and identified a difference of up to £7.35 a week that would have to be met by the tenant. As I understand it, part of the changes will see moneys currently paid as housing benefit devolved to Wales. Can the Cabinet Secretary advise me what discussions he or his officials have had with the UK Government on how that level of devolved funding will be determined and what assurance he can give that that will be ring-fenced in some way to help the most disadvantaged by the freezing of the LHA?

The LHA differences affect some communities more than others. It will be something on which I will have a discussion with my colleague the Cabinet Secretary for finance—to have further discussions with the Treasury, as and when he has those, on a regular basis.

Our priorities for tackling child poverty include improving outcomes in the early years, building a strong economy, increasing employability and supporting parents into work. Empowered and engaged communities will play a vital part in ensuring children in south-east Wales, and throughout the rest of Wales, have the best start in life.

Thank you for that reply, Minister. When announcing the scrapping of the Communities First programme, the Cabinet Secretary said that he wanted to create communities that can offer children the best start in life. However, the Bevan Foundation has warned that organisations that deliver Communities First and the communities themselves are in a real period of limbo by the scrapping of the scheme. When will the Cabinet Secretary be in a position to remove this uncertainty by announcing his proposal to replace Communities First and will he confirm that reducing child poverty will be a key priority of any replacement scheme in his budget? Thank you.

I’m slightly surprised by the Member’s question. I’m not sure if the Member was in the Chamber only a week ago when I announced the issue of the transition of Communities First and the programmes. He’ll not see in any of the statements that I made that I was intending to scrap any programme. We have made a very positive proposal for a transition. My team have been out last week meeting the north Wales and south Wales local delivery boards for Communities First to discuss the future and how that will look, with 70 per cent of the funding allocated for this year and a transition funding of £10 million revenue and capital for the next four years. I think it is a great opportunity for communities to start becoming different in the way that they manage resilience for the individual cases that Members have in their own constituencies.

Cabinet Secretary, the Flying Start scheme is making a very significant contribution to tackling issues amongst some of our youngest children and delivering considerable benefits in my constituency, but there are some families that are outwith the reach of the scheme due to the postcode nature of accessing that particular provision. So, are you able to say anything today to those constituents of mine, and I’m sure of other Members, Cabinet Secretary, who are outwith the scheme at the moment as to whether it might be extended and have a wider reach?

Well, we should say, ‘Congratulations and thank you’ to the Flying Start staff right across Wales. In South Wales East, we’ve reached around just under 10,000 children in that area, supporting them with services for their families. With the transition from Communities First into the new community resilience programmes, Flying Start and Families First are part of the integrated approach to delivery of services, and I’m looking to support that with a flexibility in that approach, where the people in need outside of that area may have the opportunity to access Flying Start or Families First or adverse childhood experiences profiling, which will help, I hope, your community and communities right across Wales.

We continue to support the Welsh fire and rescue authorities to improve fire safety. We have provided £1.4 million for them this year.

Diolch. Responding to your 7 February statement on safer communities, I referred to press reports the previous day of an 11 per cent increase in deliberate fires in Wales the previous year, which had diverted from other 999 calls and diverted fire crews away from their other priorities. Ten days later, press coverage of Welsh Government figures reported a third increase in deliberately started grass fires in Wales last year, with some 2,604 grass fires started on purpose. When you replied to me on 7 February, you referred to the previous Minister having had a joint meeting with local authorities, fire authorities and the police, but, given these significant increases now on your watch, what action have you or will you be taking with the relevant authorities?

Well, the results speak for themselves. Fires have more than halved since devolution and the responsibility for fire services has come to Wales. The Member is right to raise the issue of it peaking in grass fires. Look, any fire that is set like that is unlawful, and I encourage the authorities, or individuals who have any information about that, to tackle that by ringing the police in this case. I do meet with the fire authorities on a regular basis. I met them only last week. I will discuss how critical this issue is with them, in regard to the grass fires specifically, as we move forward into spring.

Obviously, arson is an extremely serious offence. I want to pay tribute to the fire services who turned out so promptly at a deliberate arson attack on a vehicle in Llanedeyrn on 15 January, because, without that, there would have been serious loss of life. But I also want to pay tribute to the Cardiff youth services and their work with the South Wales Fire and Rescue Service to ensure that young people who deliberately set fire to things are really aware of the potential dangers. They’re not targeting anybody in particular; they think it’s just a recreational activity. So, the Phoenix project, the young firefighters scheme and the fire setting intervention scheme seem to me to be three things that really do help young people understand that setting fire to anything is a very dangerous activity, and something to absolutely be avoided.

I thank the Member for her question. I agree with the Member—I’m incredibly proud of our firefighters across Wales. We have a great service, and, indeed, South Wales Fire and Rescue Authority provides several fire safety programmes to young people in Cardiff and beyond. These are funded by the Welsh Government and provided in collaboration with public and third sector partners, and they’ve proven highly effective in keeping young people safe from fire and reducing deliberately set fires in particular. This also goes hand in hand with work by the police liaison team, and it’s something that we recognise does have a big impact where we have intelligence of where there is some risk of young people setting fires.

I thank the Member for her question. The Welsh Government will continue to provide core funding for county voluntary councils across Wales, including CVCs in Conwy, Denbighshire, Flintshire, Gwynedd, Isle of Anglesey and Wrexham. In addition, community support projects will be benefiting from the Communities First transition, legacy funding and the employment grant.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. Following on from the announcement of the intention to phase out Communities First in its current form and the shift of focus onto employability-type programmes, I’m sure you’re already aware, Cabinet Secretary, of the numerous employability programmes in Flintshire that are providing support not only to prepare people for the world of work, but to also enable and empower them into work—projects such as the Building Futures course in bricklaying skills, and the brilliant one that I saw on a recent visit to Ysgol Maesglas in Greenfield. It is a brilliant initiative they’re doing there to work with the parents on an employability programme. Of course, we’ve got the Lift programme, which has seen over 200 participants, and partnership programmes with Lift on social care. Cabinet Secretary, are you able to provide a further update on the future sustainability of such projects and perhaps provide an idea of alternative support that could be made available for any projects that don’t fall directly under the future criteria under the new employability scheme?

There are two elements to that. There is a transition period where we will provide 70 per cent of the funding to prepare Communities First clusters to start thinking about what the future looks like and how they are able to attract other finance sources. Also, we’ve made an £11.7 million investment through the employability programme, Communities for Work, Lift, and PaCE. We’re continuing proposals as we drive that forward.

The other priorities for local authorities or for delivery boards will be a matter for them in terms of the amount of funding available to them and how they can work with the Communities First current settlement to move forward for the future. I’m confident that, given time, they will be able to adjust the programmes accordingly.

When you announced that you were phasing out Communities First, my response referred to the ‘Valuing Place’ report commissioned by the Government, based on research in three communities, including Connah’s Quay, somewhere I think you’re very familiar with. They found that establishing local networks to connect people together who want to take local action should be of priority.

In the answer you’ve just given, you referred to the delivery boards and local authorities, but how do you respond to the article from the Bevan Foundation in their spring 2017 publication exploring what the idea of resilient communities is, stating that community buy-in is essential and there’s a consensus that, if people feel that policies are imposed on them, the policies don’t work?

Well, that’s always the case, isn’t it? I think you get that with political parties and political will across the spectrum. My intention is to make sure that public services boards and local authorities are very close to their communities. We legislated on this, about engagement being a critical part of involvement in decision making. I would expect any authority that moves into a transition period from Communities First to engage with the communities that they work with, so that we can build this from the ground up as opposed to doing things to communities, working with them to make sure the ideas come from the centre.

I recently announced an additional £4 million for the community facilities programme in each of the next four financial years. This brings the total available for projects in 2017-18 to £6 million. Priority will be given to applications seeking to improve the sustainability of facilities serving Communities First communities.

Next week, it will be 11 months since Canolfan y Fron submitted an application for a grant from this programme. Delays within the Government are putting the whole project at risk. It’s also almost nine months since GISDA—a vulnerable young people’s charity—sent in their application, and they are still waiting to hear whether they have been successful in their bid. The Government had pledged that they would have received a response by October. I’ve written to you a number of times over the last few months on this issue, and in your response to one of my letters, four months ago, it was mentioned that a decision was about to be reached. But there has been still no response. Both of these organisations make a considerable difference to the lives of many people in my constituency, but they are being held back significantly because of a lack of information from the Government. Will the Cabinet Secretary inform us today the exact date that GISDA and Canolfan y Fron will learn whether their applications have been successful?

If the Member wishes to keep pushing me on a response, rather than me giving her a measured response to this process—. Will they be getting any funding today? No, they won’t. If that’s the response the Member wants, I can give her that today. Actually, the Member would be much better off waiting for me to make a collective decision on how we’re going to allocate this funding, and we will do that shortly.

Well, I’m pleased to hear of the additional investment, at least. The community facilities programme guidance says that local authorities, health boards and other public bodies, as well as businesses, can be partners to local organisations who want to make a bid to the fund. But, it appears to me that most of the projects are administered through the local authorities. It’s difficult to see how easy it is for local organisations to work with private businesses and use the wealth of skills and information that they have. Would it be possible for you to tell us how many programme projects work with local authorities as compared to those working with local businesses? What kind of encouragement do these businesses have to actually collaborate on this?

That’s a really interesting question that the Member raises. I don’t have the detail on me today, but I will write to the Member with notice of that. I’m really keen for as much involvement and third-party activity around these programmes as possible. Rather than single access points, I think, actually, we gain much more from the private sector and public sector working together with volunteers to create a community facility. I will give that some further thought, but, as I said in my response initially, my concentration of this fund now will be in Communities First areas in terms of transition.

The regeneration priorities for Pembrokeshire continue to support the communities through a range of regeneration programmes that underpin sustainable development.

I’m grateful to the Cabinet Secretary for that response. As the Member for Mid and West Wales said in earlier questions, last night I hosted a reception here in the Senedd with Milford Haven Port Authority to learn more about their investment plans for the local area, which will significantly transform the Milford Haven area as we currently know it. In light of their plans, can you tell us what discussions you’ve had about how the Welsh Government can support the authority’s regeneration plans? Can you also tell us what additional support the Welsh Government can offer organisations such as the Milford Haven Port Authority in order to encourage future investment in Pembrokeshire?

Of course, and I think there are some opportunities there about working in partnership. Under the Vibrant and Viable Places framework, we are supporting Pembrokeshire County Council with a £2.25 million town-centre loans scheme, which is a 15-year recyclable loan grant. This will, I hope, be able to reduce the number of vacant and redundant sites and premises in town centres like Pembroke, Milford Haven and Haverfordwest. So, we are already taking significant actions with the authority, in terms of a new offer for the area that the Member represents.

I welcome what the Cabinet Secretary has just said about regeneration in the port of Milford Haven, but I wanted to ask him in particular about other communities in Pembrokeshire that are more difficult to reach for regeneration and support. Following his decision to change—well, to withdraw—over a period of time from Communities First, I was particularly concerned as to what now could be delivered for the Gypsy and Traveller community in Pembrokeshire. I asked the First Minister some of these questions in the Committee for the Scrutiny of the First Minister in Carmarthenshire as well, and I’m still struggling to understand what the Welsh Government’s approach will now be to tackle these communities.

I intend to visit one of the communities in Pembrokeshire in the next month or so, and I’d like to take them a positive message from the Welsh Government about how they will be supported going forward, particularly on how educational opportunities and support for young people in Gypsy and Traveller communities will be achieved. What can the Cabinet Secretary tell me that I can take to my constituents?

I don’t know when the Member is visiting the site, but what I can do is try to ask one of my officials to join him in order to have a conversation with the young people and Gypsies and Travellers on that site to see what actions they’re seeking to happen. I think we have a very positive Gypsy and Traveller strategy, and I’ve got a team of officials who work with Gypsy and Traveller families very closely. The educational attainment levels of Gypsy and Traveller families and their children is an important factor that we consider. I would be happy to ask one of my team to come along with you to visit this site.

The Welsh Government is committed to working with all of its partners to tackle harassment against women in Wales. Violence against women is unacceptable in all of its forms. It is right that, on International Women’s Day, we raise awareness of the issues many women are still facing.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary, for that response. Concerns have been raised with me about how cases of harassment are dealt with—with the necessary and appropriate sensitivity and seriousness—by those who work in front-line public services. Cabinet Secretary, are you able to provide reassurance on the work being done to prevent harassment with those in front-line devolved public services? Also, what work is being done with non-devolved public services, such as the police, to ensure that cases of harassment are dealt with correctly?

I thank the Member for her question. I take a zero-tolerance approach on bullying, harassment and abuse. I wouldn’t care if somebody was a friend or a political ally—if they cross the line, there can be no compromise on this: this is wrong. I am confident that we are working across Welsh Government to address the long-term entrenched inequalities. Objective 4 of our strategic equality plan sets out the actions that Welsh Government will take to reduce the instances of all forms of harassment and abuse. We should all take a responsibility in making sure that this happens in our public sector bodies.

Back to the Mothers Affection Matters event earlier on today, Cabinet Secretary, listening to some of the people who gave their stories, they talked about harassment turning into abuse from a very, very early age. I’d like to just reinforce the calls made by Sian Gwenllian, and I think others yesterday, for healthy relationships training and counselling and development in schools. If we can train young children, young girls and boys, young men and women to respect and cherish each other, then we will have gone a long way to stopping harassment and abuse of women and men in their more adult lives.

You don’t need to convince me on this argument. I am working with the Cabinet Secretary for Education to see how this is achievable and we will, hopefully, have something positive to say shortly.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary.

The next item on our agenda is the 90-second statements. Julie Morgan.

Cofio Val—Remembering Val: Val Feld was the AM for Swansea East and it’s fitting that we remember her here on International Women’s Day. Val was passionately committed to equal opportunities and social justice. She was one of the key architects of devolution: one of the leaders of the ‘Yes for Wales’ campaign. The embedding of equal opportunities in the Assembly is largely due to the work of Val. We worked together when I was an MP in Westminster pursuing the Secretary of State at the time to ensure that the principle of equality of opportunity for all people was included in the first Government of Wales Act in 1998 and was to become the bedrock of this Assembly. She was relentless. She saw devolution as an opportunity to make Wales a more equal and more socially just society.

Val had a remarkable record of public and voluntary service: she was a founder of Shelter Cymru, recognising the plight of the homeless and the importance of housing, and she was a director of the Equal Opportunities Commission for Wales from 1989 to 1999. She was also a mother and a partner. Some of you knew her during her short period as an Assembly Member. When she spoke, everyone listened. She spoke authoritatively, she had a wealth of experience and principles to bring. The sky was the limit for Val and her potential was tragically cut short with what turned out to be a fatal illness. I remember visiting her in Swansea with Jane Hutt shortly before she died. We miss her very much.

Rydym yn ei cholli yn fawr iawn.

Russell George.

The Bards of Wales’ is a poem that can be recited off by heart by many Hungarians, but in Wales little is known of this poem, written by Janos Arany in 1857. Just a few days ago marked his two-hundredth anniversary of his birthday. After refusing to write a poem celebrating the emperor of Austria, Franz Joseph, following a failed revolution in 1848 against the empire, Janos wrote ‘The Bards of Wales’, which recounts a legendary story of rebellion at which 500 Welsh poets were slaughtered by King Henry I at Montgomery castle after they refused to sing his praises as their conqueror.

While Arany’s nineteenth-century poem is still taught in schools in Hungary, many living in Montgomeryshire and across Wales have never heard of it. So, I’m pleased to spread the word today. Last Thursday, a special televised celebration of his life—the life of Janos Arany—was held in Budapest, attended by the Hungarian President, at which Arany was presented with a posthumous honorary status of ‘Freeman of Montgomery’ by the mayor of the town.

The next item is the motion to amend Standing Order 23 in relation to public petitions. I call on a member of the Business Committee to move the motion—Paul Davies.

Formally.

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? The motion is therefore agreed, in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

The next item is the debate by individual Members under Standing Order 11.21 on the foundational economy. I call on Lee Waters to move the motion.

Diolch, Lywydd. As we were reminded last week by the speculation about the future of Ford in Bridgend, and the month before by the debate around the future of Tata Steel, our economy is profoundly vulnerable—vulnerable to the decisions of foreign-owned multinational corporations, vulnerable to external shocks like Brexit or oil price fluctuation, and vulnerable, like all modern economies, to the long-term impacts of climate change, food insecurity and energy scarcity.

The purpose of today’s motion, tabled in my name and in the names of my colleagues Jeremy Miles, Vikki Howells, Hefin David, David Rees, and my friend David Melding, is to consider how you might use the framing of a new economic strategy for Wales to think about how the Welsh Government can help our communities build resilience to these threats. My colleagues will explore some of the ways a foundational approach will make a difference in practice. In my opening remarks, I’ll focus on the case for change.

We’ve been trying a variation on the same theme in Welsh economic policy now for several generations, and we are running to stand still. Our national wealth level, or gross value added per head, has barely shifted in 20 years since we promised that the creation of a National Assembly would create an economic powerhouse for Wales. Two decades on, and we continue to search for a magic bullet—that much-loved transformational project. If only we could get a few high-profile inward investment projects and hope against hope for another Admiral Insurance, which, by the way, remains Wales’s only FTSE 100 company, almost 25 years after it was founded. And while we search desperately for a ribbon to cut, the day-to-day economy of our communities continues to tick over.

Today’s motion is a plea to look at what is hiding in plain sight, and discuss what we might do to nurture it—the mundane economy, as Professor Karel Williams has described it. Now, his is a name you’ll hear a few times this afternoon, I’m sure. Along with his colleagues in Manchester Business School, he’s done much to give life to the idea of the economy of the everyday, the so-called foundational economy. As a son of Llanelli, Karel Williams has taken the forlorn state of the town I represent in our National Assembly as a case study in what can be done to bolster the bits of the economy that have been left behind after the heavy industry that inspired their creation has gone.

It’s the foundational economy that underpins the social fabric of our communities, and penetrates even our most disadvantaged neighbourhoods. The industries and businesses that are there because the people are there, the food we eat, the homes we live in, the energy we use and the care we receive. This isn’t a small part of our economy; it accounts for about four out of 10 jobs and £1 in every £3 we spend. Our focus has been on anchor companies employing more than 1,000 people in one place, but there are more than 3,000 people employed in making sofas across Wales, and they don’t feature in any economic strategy, but this is the type of unglamorous activity that forms the bedrock of our local economies.

Globalisation has seen us look the other way as local producers have been crowded out of the market by foreign-owned subsidiaries, who often pressure Welsh suppliers to drop their prices and ship the profits overseas. If we get it right, the foundational economy approach offers the chance to reverse the deterioration of employment conditions, stop the leakage of money from our communities and reduce the environmental cost of extended supply chains. There are big hurdles that stand in our way—it’s pointless to pretend otherwise—and rather than ignoring them, I’d like to confront them head on.

The first is undoubtedly cost. Public sector spending—the £5.5 billion we spend every year buying in goods and services—is often cited as a direct means of boosting our foundational economy. But just as the drive to reduce budgets has led to the domination of large-scale privatised companies in the delivery of our public services, so too a reversal of this trend will require investment. Local businesses will need increased support to bid and deliver public sector contracts. We need to invest in higher skilled staff in local government with specialist procurement skills, and most likely the cost of goods and services we buy at the end of it all will go up, and we need to be honest about that. To achieve any genuine restructure will require significant investment, and a recognition that short-term financial gains should be deprioritised in favour of longer-term benefits, and we must be honest about that, too.

But the realities of our economic landscape and of impending automation make it costly not to. I’ve spoken before about how the eruption of computers being able to learn for themselves means that human brains, as well as human hands, are now in danger of being replaced by machines and algorithms. Accountants, underwriters, clerks and analysts—whole rafts of professions are profoundly vulnerable. In total, an estimated 700,000 jobs are at risk of automation in Wales alone. And whilst the high-value, knowledge-based jobs that will remain following this second wave of automation will hold considerable attraction, we must ensure that the jobs at the other end of the spectrum—those that make up the mundane bedrock of our economy—do too.

The second equally valid argument against ploughing scarce resources into the foundational economy is that it is radical and an untested approach. But as I set out earlier, our existing economic strategy has been tested—it’s not working. Our failure to rejuvenate our economy through conventional approaches has meant we’ve had to plough money into anti-poverty programmes and employment support programmes to mop up the mess. But the attraction of the foundational economy is that it would address both the weakness of our economy and the social consequences of it. And, yes, it is radical—that’s the point. We are facing a confluence of public disaffection. Brexit and the fourth industrial revolution—our operating environment is changing radically and we must do likewise. We must move away from the orthodox and give experimental a go, because failing to take notice of our foundations means we risk our entire fragile economic structure crumbling. Diolch.

It’s a pleasure to follow the Member for Llanelli and I congratulate him and his colleagues for securing this important opportunity to create some space for new thinking, for the reasons that he has eloquently outlined—we certainly need them, don’t we? I think Karel Williams has said that there’s a word in Welsh for actually repeating the same mistake over and over again, it’s called ‘twp’. And we simply will replicate the failures of the past unless we’re prepared to experiment in the radical way that the Member has suggested.

We should not, of course, shy away from the fact that what the foundational economy and, indeed, other sets of related ideas—the work of Mark Lang on deep place, and Dave Adamson on the distributed economy—represent together, I think, a coherent critique and alternative to the economic policy paradigm that has prevailed over many a generation, which essentially is almost the mirror opposite, indeed, of what has been served up to us as conventional thinking. So, whereas the foundational economy has two core elements, really, which is sheltered markets—local sheltered markets—and grounded firms, we have been focusing on global markets and foreign-owned firms, with little appreciable long-term economic benefit. And so, I think it’s time to turn the world the right way up as far as the Welsh economy is concerned.

It’s going to take, I think, a huge concerted effort, which will take some years and probably efforts across party, I think, to defeat the prevailing paradigm. It is so deeply embedded in our thinking—look at the apprenticeship levy: we actually take the retail sector out of the apprenticeship levy, whereas, actually, in terms of the long-term benefit of employees in that sector in communities, looking at driving up the skills base in a sector that has been bedevilled by low-skill, low-wage labour, you know, is the way that we should be going. So, we need unconventional approaches. I do hope the Welsh Government will create a national innovation body. But that national innovation body, to drive up innovation—in all sectors, in all areas—should not be captured by the old, narrow science and technology global-market-facing version of innovation, because innovation needs to be there at the heart of our foundational economy as well.

So, there are very, very significant challenges, but that is no reason for us to shy away from the opportunity. We will have a new economic strategy unveiled, I believe, in the next few months, over the spring period. Now is the time for the Cabinet Secretary to be bold. The answers of the past have failed us.

One of the themes that Karel Williams and his team have referred to and talked about is the missing middle strand. And one of the problems that many of our successful medium-sized companies have faced, time after time—Rachel’s Dairy, Avana Bakeries, I suppose, is another example of it—is that, when we create success from within our grounded firms and we create successful medium-sized businesses, of course, they reach a point, often due to succession planning, where people want to exit, and yet, of course, we have no means at our disposal, at the moment, of keeping that ownership, keeping that grounded firm grounded, and we all know the results of that.

The policy challenge, to go from the meta to the very specific. The development bank that we are creating, will it be based upon the ideas in terms of finance that are being promoted by Karel Williams and his team? Not the venture capital model, not actually getting people to cash out, but actually creating long-term finance. As I referred previously, La Caixa, the charitably owned bank in Catalonia, which actually takes long-term stakes in businesses that are deeply rooted within their economy, has the double benefit, not just of developing and generating a dividend for the charity that owns the bank, but also making sure that those successful companies stay successful for generations to come.

Thank you very much. Julie Morgan.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I’d like to congratulate the Members who’ve put forward this debate, because I think it does give the space to try to look at economic strategy and perhaps try to do it at a bit of a distance and to try to think of new ideas. So, I congratulate them on doing that.

The argument about what makes certain city regions, countries or areas grow faster than others is very long standing. It would be daft to try to claim that people moved from rural Ceredigion to Senghenydd in Hefin David’s constituency, as my grandparents did, because of the schools and hospitals and other infrastructure. They moved because of the coal mines. New coal mines opening up would be classed as population-creating industries, with schools, hospitals and the food and drink industries being classed as population-serving economic activities. If the mine is there, the pit village grows around it; schools and health centres, railways and roads, bakeries and breweries have to grow up nearby to serve the new local population.

This motion, as I understand it, is calling for investment and a fresh approach to the economy of the every day. And I support that, but what I would like to hear in the debate is what that actually means in practice. What would this new approach to the foundation economy actually be? Because it makes absolute sense to listen to and that’s where we should invest and that’s what we should develop. I was very pleased to hear Karel Williams speak, as well, in the Pierhead some time ago. I think it’s very important that we try to look at the situations that we have with fresh eyes and try to think of a strategy that will address some of the long-standing problems that we’ve had.

I think it still remains that, within Wales, the main variable in causing Wales, or indeed different parts of Wales, to prosper or not, is what replaces the original staple industries of the industrial revolution. I think what replaces the mines in the Valleys is as live an issue today as it was in the 1930s. I think that is where I would like to hear some more of the thinking as to how we develop the foundation industry in order to deal with the situation where those staple industries have gone, in places like the Valleys, where I come from.

In my constituency of Cardiff North, it’s a very different situation, because what keeps Cardiff North going is the world of public services. It’s never been a manufacturing constituency and it never was, except for the Royal Ordnance Factory, which came in the last war and continued, I think, for 50 years after that—the only big base of manufacturing and, of course, it’s all now houses. But what has kept Cardiff North on an even keel today is the huge investment in health services by way of the University Hospital of Wales at Heath park; the children’s hospital; the medical school at Cardiff University; the dental hospital; and, of course, the forthcoming massive investment in creating the new Velindre hospital. So, of course, the provision of public services of that character links with the emergence of new high-tech industries. Of course, on the Velindre site there’ll be a cancer research and a clinical trials business park allied with the new Velindre, and if there was more room at UHW, there would be an even bigger facility for spin-offs from the medical school. I think there’s a wider lesson there about how the foundation economy side interacts both ways with the more mobile parts of the economy.

I think, if you look at some of the most successful cities and regions in the United States, you can see that places like Austin, Texas, and Columbus, Ohio, have grown up as public sector infrastructure state capitals, providing state administration and huge, well-resourced, prestigious state universities. Now, that’s where the new high-tech industries want to locate, because both Apple and Google have decided to locate their second campuses in Austin because it’s got the right buzz. I think it’s very important that we look at the areas of growth that are most successful, that we put our resources into those, and that we plan carefully where they should be throughout Wales, and put the impetus there as well as trying to look at the foundation economy and do what we can to develop that. So, I’m very grateful to have taken part briefly in this debate today, and I congratulate the Members who are doing this economic thinking about where we’re going in Wales today. Thank you.

I’m pleased to be able to contribute to this debate today, and I also congratulate the Members for securing the debate on this subject—a subject that I hadn’t previously known a great deal about. As we’ve already heard today, the concepts of the foundational economy enshrine the principles of ‘mittelstand’ and social franchising, and there is great potential, I think, for Wales, given the fact that a significant percentage of our workforce is employed in sectors that provide essential goods and services. So, I hope I can bring a few ideas of my own to this debate this afternoon, with regard to supporting the principles of a foundational economy in Wales.

I think the fact that the UK Government’s industrial strategy has recognised the capacity for involving businesses as a social franchise for education and skills is something to be welcomed. Also, of course, the establishment of university technical colleges would introduce a business and entrepreneurship element to many vocational courses and would, of course, bring learners, colleges, universities, and businesses together, prioritising skills and improving the status of vocational qualifications. In practice, I think this will mean that members from local business communities will be encouraged to participate on school governing panels, to advise on the curriculum, to create an environment where students can develop the work-ready skills that industry say that they need, as well as, of course, working with employers to increase the diversity of apprenticeships. Spreading the growth across the country was, of course, a priority of the UK Government’s industrial strategy, and this includes additional infrastructure funding to unlock growth in areas where connectivity is holding it back, taking into account the balance, of course, of spending per head between different regions of the UK when developing future rounds of infrastructure funding. We’re still waiting, of course, for the Welsh Government’s new economic strategy, but when it’s published, I certainly hope that it will put a similar emphasis on addressing the regional disparity in economic prosperity and the skills shortages that exist.

Point 2 of the motion, I think, is particularly strong. For me, for some years I’ve been very keen to have a red meat charter—something that I would like the Welsh Government to consider again—and this is something that could really promote the local procurement of our outstanding red meat products. I have asked previously for the National Assembly for Wales to have the ability to scrutinise the development bank’s business case to ensure that businesses are fully supported through the proposals. Such scrutiny, I think, will lead to developing it further into a model that would really support the foundational economy. So, I think we’ve got an opportunity in that regard there, as well.

The development bank, also, I think, should have a regional element in Wales, giving small and medium-sized businesses the opportunity to access finance locally. I want to see a series of regional high street banks across Wales established, and localised access to finance for small businesses. I also want to see a system where a number of geographical, accountable, Welsh regional investment banks can be brought forward as well, bringing finance closer to businesses in all regions of Wales. A few of the speakers today have talked about the differences in different parts of Wales and the different needs, so I think having a localised focus to regional funding would be good, as well.

Finally, the Localism Act 2011 has also devolved a number of significant powers to local communities that should empower them to support the foundational economy. So, England has implemented the community rights since 2011, and Scotland is also implementing its own version of community rights. So, I’d like to see the Welsh Government take this approach as well, because I think that would help communities and councils to come together to deliver services supporting the foundational economy. The foundational economy has a significant role to play and to ensure, I think, that Wales does have a healthy economy. I welcome the debate today and I’m happy to indicate my support for the motion.

It’s a pleasure to speak in a debate that had its own cinematic trailer, which featured Professor Karel Williams on his visit to the Pierhead that Julie Morgan mentioned. It’s an unusual personal honour to be elected to represent, here in the National Assembly for Wales, your community and the one in which you were born and brought up. It encourages reflection on what the place that’s always been home can be.

As an academic, I’ve been interested in business and the roles small firms play in our economy. I’ve interviewed for my own research many business owners in south Wales and the west of England. However, in preparation for this debate today, I took a walk down Hanbury Road and High Street in Bargoed, and I reflected on the businesses that operate there, from Rossi’s cafe and Chisholms’ carpets to Thomas’s pet and garden supplies, which has been there since the 1950s. I took time to appreciate their existence, the role that they’ve played in my background and in my life as I went to school at Heolddu.

Indigenous businesses, buffered but unbowed, provide goods and services that contribute to our everyday lives. These businesses, rooted in our different communities, are far from immune from global economic shocks, but they are the necessary foundation to our local economies. As noted in the motion, small firms can thrive in such an environment and are less likely to leave, and, instead, can become embedded in their local supply chains. Here, they can grow and contribute to regeneration within our town centres.

My own understanding of this is heavily based on the concept of social capital. Whereas human capital refers to the knowledge and skills held by the individual, social capital refers to the extent to which that individual can gain further benefits from the knowledge that exists in their environment. Small businesses know this intuitively and connect with each other in a way that simply does not happen with larger firms, and, indeed, there is more of a hostile experience with larger firms. Using what is termed ‘bridging’ social capital, described also by Mark Granovetter in his seminal work as ‘the strength of weak ties’, firms form economic relationships that become social in nature and participants gain personal understanding, abiding trust and a deeper knowledge of one another. You may have seen it when you use local businesses and the way they talk about ‘we’ and ‘us’.

There’s a body of research that suggests that transfers of knowledge between small firms influences growth and this itself is influenced by the business network that supports social capital. It’s been argued that in order to be beneficial in the long term, networks need to be extended beyond local social contexts, and this is important, because the topography of the south Wales Valleys has been a barrier to this, and the consequence has been low-paid, low-skills work in the foundational economy.

Our environment encourages us to think in terms of our connections with the city, rather than looking to our eastern and western valley neighbours. And, alongside my colleague Vikki Howells AM, I advocate a change in our thinking and our language. We should consider our communities from Cynon to Blaenau Gwent as the northern valleys, connected and interdependent places, and not spokes linking to a vibrant city hub. By doing so, we will gain a better understanding of how we can regenerate our economic prosperity, tackle infrastructural challenges, and grow social capital. A foundational economy should stretch across the northern valleys.

In his evidence to the Economy, Infrastructure and Skills Committee’s inquiry into the rail franchise and the metro, Dr Mark Lang—mentioned already by Adam Price—cites the fact that there is a

'lack of international evidence to support the view that transport investment leads to positive economic or social outcomes’.

He also raises concerns that a

'lack of a detailed spatial understanding of South East Wales against which to plan an integrated transport network’

can be inhibitive. It’s as well to voice these concerns, and the committee will consider them in detail.

I don’t dispute the view that cross-valley connections alone will assist growth. But, if our communities are to prosper, if we are to connect in a way that we haven’t in my lifetime, if we are to harness the potential of our reserves of social capital, then we need to make these connections to that social capital, across the northern valleys.

Can I start by saying that, if I’d signed the form in the right place, I would have been one of the co-proposers of this motion? I am relieved I am at least a supporter. I’m yet to go on the basic skills course, ‘life in the modern office’, but I will do that at some point—I promise my PA.

I think, as we’ve heard from the excellent speeches so far—and I do like these backbench debates, because I think the range of subjects we’re discussing are really insightful, and the level of consensus also, and challenge, that they generate is really refreshing—this is a really overlooked area, because it is so resilient and so fundamental to everyday life.

But, you know, as Hefin said, walking down the Bargoed high street—I was brought up in Neath, and in Skewen in particular. And I remember, as a boy, being sent off to do the shopping, if my mother, who helped run the family business, was particularly busy. I could go to Mr Jones the butcher—and he was Mr Jones—and I could just say, ‘We need meat for the weekend’, and that’s all I needed to tell him. He would prepare it, I would take it away, and he’d call later for payment. It’s a remarkable service, and leaves one with really fulfilling memories. But it is also full of potential for economic growth for enterprise, and, really, for allowing people to flourish in their communities, because of the confidence they get.

We do live in an age, I think, when people feel dislocated and undervalued. The lack of common worth, the equality of worth, in our populations in western countries is a real, real concern. The message ‘take back control’ I think spoke to much more than just the Brexit debate. There’s a real, real problem, I think, in western societies about this sense that there are people who are economically successful, and then there are the rest. It’s a real, real problem. So, I think, in terms of citizen fulfilment, and citizen confidence in the whole political economic system, this subject should not be overlooked.

Can I just give a couple of examples? Social care, childcare: the first thing here is that it’s a growing need, because of the patterns of change in our population—people living longer, but also both parents seeking work. But we’ve not caught up with the fact that these skills should be better rewarded. That’s probably the basic problem we have now, that those jobs cannot really give a proper living wage. So, that’s something that our economy has to look at and challenge. But it’s a really important sector, it’s one that invites innovation—the range of services that are required to support people in their homes or to have really effective childcare, at hours that are convenient and demanded. That, I think, is something that we need to look at.

Also, specific programmes that we do sponsor to increase childcare in deprived areas to allow people access to jobs—really, really important, but sometimes we don’t even start with making sure that those childcare job opportunities are given to local people. That would be a start, wouldn’t it, and would be a good way of empowering that local economy. This goes through a lot of procurement, as has already been mentioned. We deliver a lot of services—social services, a range of services provided by public agencies—and they’re often given to people who do not live in the area, who are fairly middle-class, when locals could be doing those jobs very, very effectively. We need to remember that principle.

I think some other areas—we heard earlier about community energy projects; their management and maintenance is something that local people can be involved in. I think there’s a whole range of activity out there in the civic sector where people without formal skills run organisations, raise tens of thousands of pounds for charities: this sort of activity can also be directed into our economy. There is that potential there with people. And many community assets, I think, could benefit from taking on this approach.

Tourism is an ideal activity to examine from the foundational economy point of view. The potential is massive. We live in Wales. It just invites tourists to come, really—the tourism capital, whatever we call it, or the cultural capital that we have. But we could be better at the bespoke services. That’s what people want. They want to stay in really interesting, individual hotels that are not replicated. They want a food culture. Livestock’s been our staple for a long time, but we’ve not really gone that stage further to ensuring that we finish the higher products in the food chain. So, there are many, many things, I think, that can be built on. And, in empowering local people and giving them the confidence to flourish, I think it would be a marvellous way of getting some economic optimism back into our communities.

Today in the House of Commons, the UK Chancellor of the Exchequer announced a £1,000 business rate relief for the pubs in England, no doubt under pressure from his own back benches. Whilst the pub can indeed in some communities be the last business standing, having seen the closure of the shop, the primary school, and the community centre, I hope that we in Wales can be a bit more discerning in how we keep the glue of community cohesion together. It’s a pity we don’t have a more vociferous voice giving rate and rent relief to fruit and veg shops, which are much more at threat than pubs, rather than the purveyors of alcohol, with all the attendant problems that can cause, as well as the opportunity to socialise with our neighbours.

I’m distressed to hear that the main fruit and veg shop in the community of Llanedeyrn, which I represent, is considering giving up after over 20 years serving the community because she’s said that she’s simply not going to be able to afford the increased rent once the shopping centre is redeveloped and the rents inevitably go up. So, that is a huge cause of concern as to how that community is going to be able to access fresh fruit and vegetables in the future. And we can see that many of the corner shops that do survive in communities rarely offer any real, fresh food.

Some three years ago, Cardiff Council was forced to stop employing the couple of staff who ran the community café in the community, which provided fresh food for people who often lived alone and didn’t any longer have the capacity to cook their own meals. Although there was an initial attempt by a voluntary organisation to run it from outside the community, that foundered because they didn’t have the commitment or the organisation required to run a consistent, reliable service. So, it withered on the vine. So, I’m hopeful that the renewed community bid to reopen the café can both be glue to keep our community together, but also a mechanism for promoting real food to families who often never prepare food at home but simply buy processed food and serve it up without any input themselves, and also to provide work experience for young people who may need a better understanding of the requirements required to work in the retail industry.

Looking at the health service, Wales is a major trainer of doctors, nurses, and other allied professionals. Although these services are highly valued by our communities, we nevertheless have a persistent shortage of nurses, midwives, doctors, and other health professionals who want to stay and work in Wales. This is a conundrum that we really need to get our heads around, because, at the moment, the only people who benefit are the employment agencies, who charge very large premiums on supplying us with extra staff.

So, I was very pleased last night to hear from the vice-chancellor of Swansea University, who attended the Milford Haven event, that Swansea University is working with Abertawe Bro Morgannwg University Local Health Board and others to recruit more Welsh-based students to enter into the health profession, as it’s much more likely that these people are going to want to stay and work in Wales. I think that’s an excellent example of how we can be boosting the foundational economy.

But I also want to reiterate the challenge that’s involved in automation. The experts tell us that a third of all existing jobs at the moment are going to be done away with as a result of automation. I have to say that I think we need to ensure that we can use automation to enhance the foundational economy rather than simply seeing it as a way of eliminating staff. There are so many jobs that remain undone in our society that we need to be able to re-vive those resources, to liberate them, so that we can tackle some of the things we’ve already discussed today, whether it’s domestic violence, healthy relationships, fire safety, decent homes—these are things that we really need to think about deeply as to how we’re going to ensure that automation is not a way of simply cutting services, but of enhancing services, and replacing jobs that can be done by machinery with better jobs done by people.

The foundational economy, whilst not a complete analysis of our economy, is a very important analysis of a key part of it. Given the needs that the sectors meet, the foundational economy is here to stay, but public policy in all parts of the UK hasn’t adequately addressed how we can help it to flourish and to deliver jobs that support a decent living. I want to focus in my speech on the particular role that the public sector can play to support the foundational economy generally.

Public bodies, and I include in that local councils, NHS bodies and universities, are huge economic actors as well as deliverers of essential services. They have the capacity to stimulate their local economies through procurement. Some see this role as closer to their core mission than others. Whereas local councils probably have this at least as an aspiration, I’m willing to bet that there aren’t many conversations happening within our universities, for example, about how they can proactively grow the local supply chain.

It’s not realistic to expect to procure everything from the local economy, but we need an approach to procurement that cultivates the local economy, helping to develop and grow businesses in the local supply chain over the long term, and not being satisfied simply with community benefits or a billing-postcode approach.

In a recent conference that I convened in Neath on the regional economy, we heard of contractors shut out of bidding for construction work because the contracts let were too large, when they could have been disaggregated and made accessible to local players. What we need to tackle this sort of issue is a new duty of local economic development on major public bodies, which would take us beyond the idea of community benefits.

Julie Morgan mentioned examples from Ohio, and, in Cleveland there, public bodies have worked together, developed a collaborative model, through which, in partnership, they proactively support local economic development through their procurement capacity. We are a small country and this is what we should be doing in Wales as well. But there is a more ambitious role for public bodies to play in key parts of the foundational economy. Take the social care sector, which several speakers have already referred to: a growing sector embedded in local communities, and one where the foundations on which it will grow in future are, frankly, precarious. Councils could invest in building care homes and rent them to not-for-profit operators. There’s an enormous gap between the profit margins that a commercial operator demands and the current returns on local authority pension funds, and somewhere in between those two points is a point where the public sector can invest for a better return, and for care to be provided more cheaply and with better wages for the workforce than today. Most care workers are women, of course, so let’s recognise today, of all days, the particular need to address terms and conditions in this sector.

Take, as well, the energy sector, which has also been mentioned. Our communities are totally detached from their own capacity to generate energy, resulting in loss of value to major utilities companies and in fuel poverty, which will never be addressed by a community benefits approach, however generous that is. There are 300,000 residential properties across the Swansea bay regional area. A large number will need energy efficiency measures or renewable energy installation, and all can benefit from cheap energy. Nottingham council owns and operates an ESCo, an energy supply company, Robin Hood Energy. It has created local jobs, cut fuel poverty, reduced energy inefficiency and cut carbon emissions. It generates revenues to reinvest locally. They’re looking to expand, by the way, so it’s another growing sector.

We should also acknowledge today some of the very innovative work under way in both energy and care, and other fields, by social housing providers in our community, who are key partners in the foundational economy. Smart local intervention could transform the foundational economy across, say, the Swansea bay city region. We are about to have a city deal. What we need alongside our city deals are region-wide community deals, investing in sustainable models in the foundational economy to take advantage of low borrowing costs, as well as the potential of the new UK municipal bonds authority and innovative joint pension fund management. There are long-term returns to the public sector and huge economic and well-being gains to the community.

What the foundational economy is about is a broader, less economistic view of the economy—one that takes well-being seriously. It isn’t about altruism, but about a sustainable economic model with a long-term horizon. It requires some imagination and the confidence to look at the economy differently, informed by a sense of common purpose.

Thank you. Finally, Rhianon Passmore.

Diolch, Deputy Llywydd. It gives me great pleasure also to speak in this debate. The foundational economy, as the Bevan Foundation rightly states, is a grand name for those business activities that we use every day and see all around us. Business like the Welsh retail, care, food, health and energy industries that have been mentioned may not have the glamour of other aspects of the economy, but it is high time that we all gave them the importance that they are due. I believe also that social procurement has a vital and critical role to play in stimulating our economy.

In Wales, the foundational economy provides real jobs for over half a million people. It provides essential services that form the heartbeat of local communities such as the village shop or care setting or processing or distribution or health centres. It is essential for a safe, sustainable and secure society less reliant on wider nations and insecure supply lines. The foundational economy is also relatively stable against external economic shocks—critical, post Brexit. It is relatively evenly spread across Wales. But equally, it is proven to have majoritively poorer terms and conditions, as has already been mentioned—majoritively women. So, addressing these issues could improve Welsh workers’ pay and also our economic and fiscal base.

We know that we live in an ever-changing world, and no longer are people afforded the security of a job for life. Pay a visit to any national supermarket and you are met with self-service tills where once you were met by a member of staff, as has been mentioned by Lee Waters and Jenny Rathbone. Yet in this world of hurtling change we know one constant, and that is: work affords people the opportunity to earn money and the opportunity to have enhanced self-respect in their lives, and adds to the well-being of a shared community where everyone’s success impacts on us all. We must all back a renewed emphasis on the foundational economy, because at its heart it is vital as we seek to combat poverty, and all in a world of vastly shrinking public sector funding and hugely retracting welfare safety nets.

Today in the UK, 13.5 million people are living in poverty. Of these, 7.9 million are working-age adults. Sadly, most shocking of all, 66 per cent of working households are in poverty—and they have someone doing paid work. When the political journalist of the ‘Argus’, Ian Craig, interviewed me earlier this year, he asked me what my priorities were as Islwyn Assembly Member. The answer was obvious. I said to him that, as a young adult, I was instrumental in setting up a number of tenants and residents associations, including at the Ty-Sign housing estate where I live today—the largest in my county borough—and that as a Welsh Assembly Member, I want to do everything that I can do to tackle poverty, both in Islwyn and across Wales.

The biggest issue for the people I see in my office, as many do in this Chamber on a regular basis, is poverty. It is paying your bills. It is having a decent standards of living. It is employment rights. It is security at work. It is economic viability. Many people today are suffering through a whole tranche, a tsunami of things, which are forced on them, increasing poor mental health, increasing workload on our hospitals, increasing people’s unhappiness.

Will the Member take an intervention?

I’m sorry, I don’t have time.

I’m particularly concerned about people in work not earning enough. In preparing for this debate, I found the Joseph Rowntree report ‘UK Poverty: Causes, costs and solutions’ important and also refreshing. I wholeheartedly support the call for better pay and conditions. We can and must press for the voluntary living wage to be introduced as a high priority in all public sector employment and rolled out in public procurement contracts. Private sector employers should be supported and encouraged to introduce it. It is right that we in Welsh Labour propagate and lead the way and, as such, I wish to thank my Welsh Labour colleagues Lee Waters, Hefin David, Vikki Howells and Jeremy Miles for bringing this motion forward today. I want to add my voice to a call for innovation, bravery and ambition with a new Welsh resilient economic strategy, fit for purpose, for a modern, vibrant and prosperous Wales. Thank you.

Thank you. I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Economy and Infrastructure, Ken Skates.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. Can I begin my speech by thanking Members for their thoughtful contributions today? It’s been an absolute pleasure to listen to each and every Member. This debate on the foundational economy comes at a very important time because, as Members are aware, I’m currently taking a fresh look at our economic priorities and, as part of this work, I’ve been talking to people, businesses, trade unions and organisations right across Wales.

It’s struck me that the economy does have many strong features. From Airbus and Toyota in the north to BAMC and GE in the south, there is a world-class innovation, knowledge and skills base right across the economy, more than we sometimes actually appreciate.

But also, as I’ve travelled around the country, one thing is very clear. Rhianon Passmore identified it, David Melding identified it and many others have as well. People feel insecure. Communities feel insecure. Beyond the headline of the 150,000 jobs that the Welsh Government supported in the last Assembly term, it’s clear to me that our economy and our economic model needs to be re-engineered to ensure that regional and local economies are more sustainable, to remove the lumpiness of growth across the economy. Indeed, not just to build economies but, as David Melding alluded to, to build places—places that people have pride in and feel secure in. We need an economy that is itself more secure to the shocks of globalisation, technology and political disruption, which will only increase and intensify in the coming years.

The vulnerability that Lee Waters talked of risks intensifying, unless change happens there. That’s where today’s debate makes an important contribution and, indeed, why the cross-party consensus that is so obvious on the importance of the foundational economy will be of enormous assistance in delivering a bolder, more inclusive strategy for a prosperous and secure Wales.

I can confirm to Members that our ‘prosperous and secure’ strategy will within it contain a very strong role for the foundational economy. If we get the approach right, not just within my department in terms of the services that I’m responsible for delivering and the support that I’m responsible for, but right across Government, then the foundational economy can play a hugely significant role in not just helping to grow our economy, but growing our economy with a purpose: reducing inequalities between people and between our communities.

We know the best route out of poverty is work, so we need to help people into work, to stay in work, and, crucially, to progress through work. The foundational economy offers great opportunities in that regard. The foundational economy happens where people live, so offers opportunities to stimulate sustainable, local economic growth—better jobs, closer to home. And I recognise that some parts of the foundational economy are marked for low-paid work, as Members have identified, relatively poor employment conditions and an absence of progression opportunities. That is the reason for the Welsh Government taking a clearer leadership role, when four out of every 10 jobs in Wales are in the foundational economy. By supporting innovation, improving management, filling skills gaps, helping develop new business models and, ultimately, encouraging better pay and conditions, we can develop those more resilient local communities.

An example of this is in the social care sector, which Jeremy Miles and others spoke eloquently of. Here, a new approach, drawing on the breadth of our levers across Government and focused on this national priority sector, can deliver real results and better outcomes for our economy and society. We are under no illusion that there is pressure on the social care sector, arising from factors such as financial constraints and an ageing population. So, we’re looking at ways in which we might be able to better support this sector and the businesses that operate within it. There are things we can do around procurement, around skills support and property that could make a real difference to service delivery and the sustainability of the sector, and the social care sector is, of course, geographically dispersed. Assisting local homes could help with accessibility to employment for people in communities right across the country and, crucially, in the process, driving up the quality of jobs, employment conditions and the sustainability of the businesses within it.

Members also spoke about energy, which isn’t just an essential component of the foundational economy. Arguably, it is, for Wales, our twenty-first century economic hedgehog, demonstrating how we are leading the world in certain energy subsectors. We’ll have much more to say on this and our broader ambitions for the foundational economy as our ‘prosperous and secure’ strategy is presented in the coming months. I am in no doubt that we want to harness the power and opportunities presented by the foundational economy, and so I welcome this debate today and the thoughtful input of Members, which we can factor into our work.

Thank you very much. I call on Vikki Howells to reply to the debate.

Diolch, Ddirprwy Lywydd. Thank you to all the Members who have contributed to today’s debate. For my closing remarks, I want to start by outlining a few reasons why the foundational economy is so different. In contrast to what has been described as ‘the monoculture of mainstream economics’, where growth and innovation have been constrained within a one-size-fits-all policy, a refreshed focus on the foundational economy will allow us to develop bespoke solutions that meet different needs across different parts of Wales, including, critically, in my own constituency and the rest of the northern Valleys. A foundational economy would, instead, be built around innovative policies that engage the specifics of activity, time and place. It also challenges us to review, reappraise and re-evaluate the activities already going on all around us, moving away from a blinkered rejection of the everyday to instead embrace their benefits and importance. This is a point well made by David Melding when he talked about aspects of our workforce feeling undervalued.

In an excellent seminar here at the Senedd yesterday, Professor Julie Froud noted the need to build, grow and develop grounded firms. By doing so, the foundational economy offers Wales a chance to be a world leader. Growing internationally recognised brands, which can be exported around the world, is one area that has been identified as a key challenge for us as we strive to grow our foundational economy. I’m very proud to be able to say that Penderyn whisky, which is distilled and packaged in my constituency before being sold around the world, is perhaps one of our best examples of a recognisably Welsh international brand. Its success shows us that by thinking outside the box, having confidence and accessing appropriate business support, as referred to by Russell George, it is possible for us to access niche markets and to become a world leader.

But, aside from these more glamorous high-end niche sectors, there are powerful economic arguments in favour of the foundational economy. Professor Karel Williams has highlighted what should be a self-evident truth: the Welsh economy is dominated by the foundational economy, producing the mundane basic goods that we all rely on. Nearly 40 per cent of Welsh jobs are located in the foundational economy. In the Cynon Valley, enterprises like furniture makers Ashwood Designs and dairy producer Ellis Eggs are key local employers. In Mountain Ash, Rocialle provides essential consumable items to healthcare, employing just under 400 people to make things like bandages, bowls and cotton-wool balls.

Carpet Fit Wales, another very successful firm based in my constituency, boasts well-developed horizontal supply chains, and highlights the way in which local procurement networks can be used to grow and stimulate the Welsh economy. During my preparation for this debate, I spoke to Carpet Fit Wales and was impressed by the way they are connected to neighbouring businesses. Their suppliers are based in Swansea, Cardiff and Bridgend, they use a local floor manufacturer based in Caerphilly, and their human resources, information technology, design and garage services are all provided within the Cynon Valley.

As this example shows, the foundational economy benefits all of Wales, not just hotspots that can leave other swathes of Wales feeling isolated and left behind, providing localised goods and services that communities can be proud of. An additional strength is provided by its longevity and resilience, with the businesses, services and infrastructure within the sector having proved remarkably resilient to external crashes over time—a point stressed by Lee Waters.

Cresta Caterers in Aberdare has been in business for over 50 years, and Welsh Hills Bakery for over 60 years—still a family owned business in Hirwaun that exports across Europe, America, Australia and the middle east. Both of these are examples of the food sector so well referenced by my colleague Jenny Rathbone. In addition, my colleague Hefin David drew on examples from his constituency and his academic background to powerfully reinforce the message of social capital being used as an asset.

In addition to the powerful economic arguments for focusing on the foundational economy, there are also strong moral arguments in its favour, too. The manifesto for the foundational economy persuasively argued that a rebalancing of economic and well-being gains will enable us to aim at a Wales with a reinvigorated social franchise that has a stronger focus on reciprocal social relations. In this model, economic needs and quality of life would go hand in hand, so that employers cannot impose unacceptable working practices and bigger businesses cannot ride roughshod over smaller suppliers or local concerns.

This is very necessary, because, as the Bevan Foundation has rightly pointed out, many of the industries and occupations associated with the foundational economy have a real problem with low pay and poor working practices—a point well made by Rhianon Passmore. We must take action to improve problems like work insecurity, zero-hours contracts and inadequate pay. One area to focus on, as Karel Williams notes, is the opportunities and challenges provided by the growing adult care sector. We must consider these elements not just as economic determinants but as providers of invaluable social benefit, and value them accordingly.

Jeremy Miles used care as one example where strengthening the foundational economy will bring long-term returns to the public sector and huge local economic and well-being gains to the community. I welcome the work the Welsh Government is doing around this, and also similar initiatives like the childcare pilot. When this policy is fully implemented, there is the potential for significant growth in the childcare sector, providing additional jobs in the foundational economy, and it is another area in which Wales can again take a lead. It is vital that the employment opportunities provided by this policy are well planned on a local and regional basis, with the Welsh Government overseeing the process to ensure that the jobs created are secure and fairly paid.

To conclude, today marks a call for action in a renewed focus on the foundational economy. As Members have pointed out, many of the businesses and activities that make up the sector have been with us for years, but have never been properly integrated into our economic vision. I hope the Welsh Government will fully integrate support for the foundational economy into its forthcoming economic strategy. As Julie Morgan stated, it would be beneficial for us to consider this in our existing and current economic plans. And I am very pleased with the commitment that the Cabinet Secretary has made here today in his response to the debate, focusing on aspects of the foundational economy and issues such as procurement.

At the heart of the economic strategy must be a focus on developing grounded firms. I have cited some excellent examples from my own constituency but they tend to be exceptional in a Welsh economy that is defined as possessing a missing middle—a point well-made by Adam Price—where we lack the medium-sized enterprises that adapt and thrive within, for example, the German economy, by building on first-class reputations and exemplary brand presence. There are clear challenges here around access to finance and succession planning, and I hope that we can meet these.

Additionally, we must look again at how procurement works in Wales. I know the Welsh public sector spends £5.5 billion on goods and services, and although moves have been made to strengthen local procurement, they haven’t always gone far enough. There are opportunities around local government reorganisation and regional working to really get this right, but we need to get public sector and our foundational economy enterprises together to make sure conversations can be had. This can, in turn, then be used to strengthen and protect working conditions and really build a prosperous Wales that works for all of its citizens. I commend this motion today.

Thank you very much. The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? No. Therefore, the motion is agreed, in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Item 6 on our agenda this afternoon is the Welsh Conservative debate on child health and I call on Angela Burns to move the motion.

Diolch, Deputy Presiding Officer. I am pleased to bring this debate to the Assembly today on behalf of the Welsh Conservative group. I have given much thought to the discussion I am hoping we can develop today. As a mother of two young children, the issue of child health and well-being is obviously extremely close to my heart and something I feel passionately about. I am so very aware that too many of our children really struggle to reach a good equilibrium in terms of their health and well-being. And because the factors that influence child and adolescent health and well-being cut across a number of portfolios, I appreciate that the Cabinet Secretary may feel that some of this debate strays away from his portfolio, but I make no apologies for cleaving to the premise that all children deserve the best start in life.

We would all wish for the best for the children and youngsters of Wales, however I’m keen that we recognise the importance of clarifying and setting a long-term vision for child health that promotes health and wellbeing from birth, because a healthy and emotionally resilient child is more likely to navigate better the turbulent waters of adolescence; will be more ready to learn and maximise their life chances; more likely to have developed healthy lifestyle habits; be better able to weather the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune; and cope with not just the joys of life but the turmoil of disappointment and sadness. I want to work with other parties and the Cabinet Secretary to achieve this. I trust that the tone we set today is not seen as confrontational but as a mature debate bringing ideas and suggestions forward to achieve an aim that every one of us in this Chamber would want to support.

So, let us start by looking at some facts. In Wales only 4 per cent of the NHS budget is targeted solely on women and children’s health needs. With International Women’s Day being celebrated around the world, surely this needs to change and we need to see a greater percentage of the NHS budget focused on women and children, because inequalities in health do not happen by chance—they are determined by where we live, the health of our parents, our income and education. And although children cannot effect these circumstances their development can be seriously affected by these circumstances.

According to the Chief Medical Officer for Wales’s report published in November 2016, the gap in health inequalities between the richest and poorest is widening. A perfect example of this is seen in young people’s tooth decay. While percentages of children with tooth decay in Wales has fallen from 48 per cent in 2008 to 35 per cent in 2015, which is very welcome news, Merthyr has seen figures rise to a startling 57 per cent. In other words, over half the children in that area are suffering from tooth decay. And according to the British Dental Association, in Wales as a whole, almost two thirds of teenagers suffer from decay, making them 60 per cent more likely to be affected by the disease than their English peers. I’m sure that the Cabinet Secretary will agree with me that these figures are concerning. So, why do I raise such an issue? Because we should bear in mind the importance that oral health has to general well-being. Poor oral health not only affects physical health, but also a child’s confidence, mental health and development.

We also need to gain a greater understanding of the causes of child ill health, and this is where I believe that effective monitoring and research is so important. We often view health inequalities through the prism of social economic deprivation, and sometimes ignore other aspects of a patient’s life that can have an impact, such as their gender, ethnicity, disability, or their mental health or parental responsibilities. I remain concerned that we do not have a good enough understanding of the individual to be able to address their needs effectively and adequately. To do that, we need more detailed research to be conducted across all age groups, and we need to expand that research in order to analyse the impacts on child health and well-being of relatively modern pressures, such as social media, and the impacts of pornography, of media objectification of young women in particular, and a rampant peer bullying. In fact, I’ve just had an e-mail that I’m going to read out—or a bit of—from a young woman who said,

The pressure to be perfect, to look perfect, to act perfect, have the perfect body, have the perfect group of friends, the perfect amount of likes on Instagram—and if you don’t meet those ridiculously high standards, then the self-loathing and the bullying begins.’

This is why it’s so important for us to really understand the impacts that these have on young people.

In Wales, as many as one in three of our children live below the poverty line, but, again, there’s a distinct lack of data on the depth of this poverty. We also need to consider, when undertaking studies to address this, to correlate research at levels that details gender, disability and ethnicity, because it will ultimately provide better and more accurate information for policy makers to base their decisions around. We must move away from the one-size-fits-all approach and ensure that a far better understanding is gained. This chimes with the calls that were made in the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health’s ‘State of Child Health Report 2017. It calls on the Welsh Government to fund a longitudinal study to track outcomes of infants, children and young people growing up in Wales to create data that will directly inform policies and services. Additionally, it states that the HealthWise population survey needs to take responses from under 16s as well. Now, both of these recommendations are important and also work alongside CLIC Sargent’s campaign for the Welsh Government to start collecting cancer patient experience data for the under 16s, which they don’t currently do. NHS England has committed to a methodology to do this, and I would like to ask you, Cabinet Secretary, to consider this for Wales.

All these recommendations will help us to better target resources, but at a minimal cost. As these studies are already taking part, all it would require is either a further expansion of those studies or minor improvements and changes to the research methodology.

The report also suggests that the Welsh Government should work with its counterparts in other parts of the UK to identify gaps in data collection and to ensure existing sources are comparable with other UK nations. Now, we’re not trying to play one part of the UK off against another here. But I do feel that by pooling knowledge, by pooling resources and pooling best practice, then we have a better chance of improving outcomes for all.

The CLIC Sargent report also highlighted another very worrying finding, which has a very serious impact for young cancer sufferers. They found that young people felt they were not listened to or taken seriously when first presenting symptoms to GPs. This is concerning, as we all know that in many cancers, it’s vital to catch them early. Additionally, GPs rank the lack of training opportunities as one of their top-three barriers to identifying cancer in young people. I would urge the Cabinet Secretary to look into this matter as a priority, to ensure that young people have the voice they deserve.

Finally, before I close, I’d like to focus on the well-being aspect of children’s health. Subjective measurements of child health and well-being can help us better understand the different types of mental health issues faced by children and young people. Research by the Children’s Society has attempted to explore the gender patterns in the well-being of children in the UK, and their recent ‘Good Childhood Report 2016’ found that objective indicators, such as family structure and household income, have a much weaker link to children’s well-being than indicators that are subjective or closer to them, such as the quality of their family relationships and other child-centred measures of deprivation. The report went on to find that the number of 10 to 15-year-old girls who defined themselves as unhappy has risen from 11 to 14 per cent over a five-year period, whereas figures for the number of boys in the same age group over the same period has remained stable at 11 per cent.

The Girl Guide movement also undertook work around this issue in their girls’ attitudes survey 2016. This found that 33 per cent of girls aged 11 to 21 would not seek help, because girls are just expected to cope, which is, in my view, a collective indictment of how we are bringing them up. And I make no apologies for emphasising the Girlguiding report and the other reports that focus on young women, today of all days—International Women’s Day—because that report also stated that girls aged between 11 and 21 say that mental health and well-being are the most important issues for them, to improve girls’ and women’s lives. And when asked what action they wanted to see, 34 per cent of respondents said they wanted to see greater support for younger people with their mental health. Worryingly, over a fifth claimed that they didn’t know who to ask for help, with these figures rising closer to a third in that very vulnerable, older, 17 to 21 age group. I accept that this survey was a UK-wide one, taking in opinions from Welsh Guides, but it did take in opinions from Welsh Guides and I would urge a similar study to be undertaken in Wales to help inform policy. However, I don’t imagine that the findings will be that much different. I think that the findings highlight that isolation and fear are not simply the purview of the elderly, but also surround many young people and affect their well-being. That is why some 7 per cent—or is it why some 7 per cent of 15-year-old boys and 9 per cent of 15-year-old girls are regular smokers? Numbers have dropped in recent years, but not to the level of other EU countries. This is a ticking time bomb, which if not adequately addressed, will have a serious long-term impact on the individual’s health. Is this why alcohol abuse in the young is increasing, as are self-harming and eating disorders?

As girls get older, they are more likely than boys to experience emotional problems such as anxiety and depression. These emotional problems sometimes emerge as conditions such as anorexia, which can be treated, but often have long-term health effects once the condition itself has been dealt with. Anorexics will often suffer from brittle bone disease later in life, or have problems reproducing due to a condition that may have been treatable if caught and identified earlier.

Young cancer survivors may also have longer term mental health needs. CLIC Sargent highlights that when cancer hits, it can affect every part of a young person’s life, including schooling, emotional health, relationships and confidence. Cabinet Secretary, what we need to ensure is that we are producing resilient and well-adjusted children who will grow into resilient and well-adjusted adults. We need to focus our efforts on ensuring that children have access to effective mental health support. We need to ensure that children are taught the value of adopting healthy lifestyle behaviours and making good relationships. We need to give them an opportunity to grow up in supported environments, in which parents and carers are able and enabled to support their kids. We need a clear and unambiguous vision for the health and well-being of our children, and the Welsh Conservatives would like to come along on that journey with you in order to give that vision for the children of Wales.

Thank you. I have selected the four amendments to the motion, and I call on Rhun ap Iorwerth to move amendments 1, 2 and 4, tabled in his name. Rhun.

Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer, and may I welcome this motion, tabled by the Welsh Conservatives? I will move amendments that we believe strengthen this motion further. We are, of course, aware of the impact that securing quality housing, healthcare, education and being safe in the home, and so on, have on a child’s development. I’m sure that some of you will recall some previous Plaid Cymru debates in this Chamber on preventing the eviction of families with children from their homes, where we’ve listed the numerous and negative impacts of homelessness, overly full and poor housing on children, but it’s always worth reminding ourselves that children living in houses that aren’t adequately heated and in a poor condition are more than twice as likely to suffer chest and breathing problems and conditions such as asthma and bronchitis. There’s a strong relationship between overfilled housing and the helicobacter pylori, which is one of the main causes of stomach cancer and other diseases in the digestive system. They are twice as likely to develop such diseases when they reach 65 to 75 years old. Homeless children have four times as many respiratory diseases; they are five times as likely to suffer diarrhoea or stomach complaints; they are twice as likely to have to have an emergency admission to hospital; they are six times as likely to have speech defects and a stutter; and four times as likely to have asthma as children who are not homeless. This list of the impacts of a poor start in life is a lengthy one, but it’s worth rehearsing it time and time again, and until the wider political culture in Westminster recognises, for example, that it’s never acceptable to balance a budget by making children ill through cuts to welfare and so on, we will repeat these points time and time again. And I think that issue of housing is reflected in our first amendment.

I will move to our next amendment. I think it is quite clear that the evidence that we’ve received from neurological scientists shows that brain development does continue swiftly through the teenage years and into one’s early adulthood, and therefore it is crucial, I think, that the health and well-being of children, both physically and mentally, are supported as they grow up through those years. The Government, of course, does have a child health strategy for children up to seven years of age, but we are of the view that we need appropriate support beyond that age and throughout the adolescent years. The strategy needs to deal with physical health. I think it is fair to say that we need far more support for preventing and treating mental health problems too, before they become lifelong conditions, which can be very grave indeed. We often talk about the importance of identifying and treating cancer at an early stage, for example, but the same is true with mental health issues too. We need to recognise that and take strategic action.

Our final amendment reflects the need for a continuous focus on tackling obesity. Schools have a crucial role to play here. I would like to see sport and other physical activities, because not all children enjoy or benefit from competitive sport, but all of this needs to play a far more prominent part in the new curriculum. Clearly, this will require improved facilities for sport. But, in addition to that, I do think that schools should consider how they can create an environment that tackles obesity: to consider what’s on the school menu more than they currently do—there have been some developments, of course; and controlling access to junk food through vending machines, or managing whether pupils can get takeaways at lunchtime and so on. I also think that science teachers could have a role in ensuring that pupils do get some health literacy, so that they can differentiate between healthy eating advice based on evidence and the scare stories and dietary fads and so on.

So, those are our amendments. We will be voting against the Government amendment. We are not convinced that the current support is sufficient. We would have preferred to see the wording emphasising the need for a revaluation of the situation, as it currently stands. But this is a very important motion and, in being amended in the ways that I have proposed, I do think that this can be a clear statement of our ambition to give children the best starts possible in life.

Thank you. I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Health, Well-being and Sport to move formally amendment 3, tabled in the name of Jane Hutt.

Formally.

Thank you very much. Suzy Davies.

Diolch, Ddirprwy Lywydd. Well, Members, you can tell from the tone of the motion that we are looking today for an open and discursive debate, which will help inform three things, I think: firstly, how to improve the well-being of individual children, which is obviously the most important, but also how to help them grow up with a sense of resilience and confidence to be good citizens, and then, of course, how to help our Governments, regardless of their politics, to agree that without an effective long-term vision for child health, other aspirations for our young people are going to be a bit of a stretch.

Raising our children, regardless of their circumstances, their start in life, their challenges, which of course may be lifelong in some cases, to be able to cope and to really believe that tomorrow is another day is the most valuable of gifts, not just for an individual child, but for a strong social fabric. And yes, of course, as part of healthy maturing, young people in Wales, as anywhere else, need to come to terms with the usual youthful crises of confidence: things not going their way and a range of petty injustices. But something seems to be happening that is making this healthy maturing more difficult.

We heard earlier from Angela Burns about the growth in unhappiness for girls and their sense of being stranded with their anxieties. It’s younger boys who admit to being unhappy, often associated with schoolwork, conduct and inattention. Left alone, these unhappinesses that children experience can grow into something far more serious than youthful unhappiness. These findings, while they might be exacerbated by what we recognise as the effects of poverty, are found across the socioeconomic board, and we miss them if we rely too heavily on indicators, as Angela said, such as family income and structure. You can find the happiest, most resilient, most emotionally supported children in the poorest communities in Wales and the loneliest, most directionless, most emotionally abandoned children living in mansions. Who is the more deprived on those indicators?

Of course, I’m not gainsaying any of the evidence about the connection between poor child and maternal health and deprivation. Everything I’m sure we will hear today about overcoming social inequalities and building the data to approach it in a more granular way is something I’m sure that the Cabinet Secretary will see the sense in. It’s the kind of data we collect that will inform change. My point is that every child’s mental health is important and if one in four of us is likely to experience poor mental health, then it’s pretty clearly no respecter of objective socioeconomic boundaries. Building up this different granular data is essential not just to judge the scale and depth of poor mental health, but for designing effective mental health support for all children. We know that the child and adolescent mental health service is struggling. I’m sure poor old Lynne Neagle is fed up of saying it. And, yes, young people may be being wrongly directed towards CAMHS and, yes, in all fairness, Welsh Government is investing more in talking therapies, which is good news, but we are in difficulties in meeting the specific mental health needs of individuals before adulthood, and we are in difficulties preventing poor mental health in the first place.

So, in looking at a long-term vision for child health, let’s not ignore preventable poor mental health. Compulsory teaching about healthy relationships, different sexualities and gender equality is part of that, I would say— so I hope that your colleagues, Cabinet Secretary, will have their working party report on that sooner rather than later—but so is understanding that you are part of something bigger than yourself or even bigger than your own family. It’s easy enough to blame social media for this, so I will, but when you’re getting 500 likes for a picture of your new eyebrows well beyond your teens, and when that becomes more important than saying hello to your next-door neighbour, standing up for someone else on a bus, or carrying someone else’s bag for them when they’re trying to control a buggy and three kids, do you have to ask, ‘Why are people more unhappy?’

Of course, we can’t go back. I see tremendous examples of individuals coming together via social media to stand up as a community and fight for something or, even better, take responsibility for it themselves. Individuals who, in the analogue age, would never have gone to a public meeting or got involved in working as a group to solve a problem in their area, because they were too shy, had no self-belief or, worst of all, thought it was somebody else’s problem, someone else’s responsibility. If you just take the example of social care in years to come, we are not going to be able to deal with that if we are a disconnected society. We need our children to grow up healthy in body and mind, strong and confident enough to contribute to healthy communities. Thank you.

I’d like to thank the Welsh Conservatives for proposing this debate today. Securing better health outcomes for children and young people is one of the most important tasks facing us in this Assembly. Previous Assemblies and the Welsh Government have taken steps to improve child health, but it isn’t enough according to the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health in their annual ‘State of Child Health Report’. They highlight the fact that child health outcomes lag well behind our counterparts in western Europe, particularly in mental health outcomes and child deaths. This debate is particularly opportune as we had the news yesterday that air pollution is an urgent public health crisis. The British Lung Foundation, in a recent study, found that nearly half of Welsh councils did not have any air quality monitors outside schools. The British Lung Foundation also found that, in the five areas identified as having unsafe levels of particle pollution—Cardiff, Chepstow, Newport, Swansea and Port Talbot—only six schools had nearby monitors.

Air pollutants have been documented to be associated with a wide variety of adverse health impacts in children. Because of the rapid changes a child’s body undergoes, children are especially vulnerable to the effect of air pollutants. A recent Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health report showed that air pollution can produce detrimental effects on growth, intelligence, and neurological development. Babies and toddlers can often struggle with wheezing and frequent coughs as a result of air pollution, and there is emerging evidence that it can also affect mental and physical development.

Research from Sweden has found that relatively small increases in air pollution were associated with a significant increase in treated psychiatric problems in children. But perhaps the most significant finding of the RCPCH report was the overwhelming evidence that air pollution is associated with reduced lung growth during childhood and increased risk of developing asthma. Every 20 minutes a child is admitted to hospital because of an asthma attack, and one in three children in every classroom suffers from the disease.

Yesterday’s warning by Public Health Wales that air pollution is more of a concern than obesity and alcohol should shock us all—not just because of the 2,000 people who needlessly lose their lives each year, but because of the impact air pollution has on child health. The Welsh Government must ensure that air pollution monitors are installed outside every school in Wales, and work with local authorities and the UK Government to reduce the levels of air pollutants around schools and places where children play.

As well as taking action to reduce air pollution, the Welsh Government must also ensure that children and young people affected by air pollutants have early access to pulmonary rehabilitation. Governments at all levels have a responsibility to protect our nation’s children from the scourge of air pollution, and, now that Public Health Wales have identified this as public health crisis, I hope that urgent action will be taken. Thank you.

It’s a pleasure to take part in this important debate on child health, and I just want to take a few moments, if I can, just to highlight how important it is to get health messages home to children and to parents, and indeed to teaching professionals in our schools. One of the tools that, traditionally, has been used to deliver those important messages has been our school nursing workforce, and I had the pleasure of visiting an excellent school nursing service in Bryntirion Comprehensive in Bridgend recently with Suzy Davies, my colleague, where we heard first hand from the school nurse there, who’s actually employed by the school rather than the health board, about the sorts of services that she is delivering, and the way in which she is able to engage with the school population as a result of the way that she is employed by that particular school.

Now, we know that the school nursing framework in Wales is currently under review, and I know that the Government are hoping to refresh that within the next few months, and I very much welcome that, but I wonder whether the arrangements within that new school nursing framework will be sufficient to take advantage of the opportunities that school nursing really affords. We’ve got around 220 or so school nurses in Wales—every secondary school has a named school nurse available to it—but those individual school nurses are not full-time dedicated to an individual secondary school. As a result of that, the sort of trust and confidence that young people very often need in order to establish a relationship with the school nurse allocated to their school simply isn’t there.

That’s in stark contrast to the model that I saw at Ysgol Bryntirion, where the nurse there, Judith, was available every single day of the week for the pupils and the staff, and she was there, engaging, giving sort of occupational health advice, giving safeguarding advice to members of the professional staff team and, in addition to that, giving very important public health messages to those children in that school, and supporting them through what have often been very difficult times in their lives. I think the one big thing that struck me was that she’s been able to establish a relationship not just with the school, but with the wider community that that school actually serves—the wider school family. As a result of those relationships, they’ve seen staff absence rates massively fall, they’ve seen school attendance rates amongst the learners rapidly increase, they’ve seen pupils not going home when they’re unwell, but actually being able to manage their conditions within the school day in a way that would not have been possible had she not been available there.

I appreciate that the wider school nursing service that is available across Wales in each individual health board area has a number of other important functions to undertake: things like immunisations, and oral and dental healthcare programmes, which are a core part of their work. But the one thing that our current school nursing service doesn’t have very often is sufficient time to be able to invest in individual school sites so that they can develop the sorts of relationships that I saw, which had been cultivated over the years by Judith with Ysgol Bryntirion.

Of course, it’s not just our secondary schools that need access to school nurses. We also need to ensure that our primary schools have access to trusted school nurses as well, and, indeed, I’d like to see them be more widely available in our FE colleges and our universities, because, of course, we all know that they are also places where young people and staff need support from health professionals who can be available and on hand when they need them.

In terms of public health, why not get the school nurses involved in delivering lessons on nutrition, on physical activity, on substance misuse? We’re facing an epidemic, at the moment, of mental health and well-being-related problems, as Suzy Davies quite rightly said a few moments ago. Nipping these things in the bud could be something that our school nurses might be able to do, if they were properly equipped and properly trained to be able to do so. So, I want to extol the virtues of school nursing and encourage the Government, in its response today, to perhaps lift the lid a little bit more on what is being done to refresh that school nursing framework and perhaps tell us a little bit more about where things are currently at in terms of the time frame for delivering on the promise to refresh it. Thank you.

I welcome the opportunity to speak in this afternoon’s debate and to take on board some of the very many points that have been brought forward. I very much hope that the Cabinet Secretary, in addressing the debate, will talk about the streams that the Government are pulling together, because, as Angela Burns, in her opening remarks, made quite clear, most of this actually transcends the health portfolio and goes into many portfolios across the whole of Government. Very often, there can be examples of excellent practice going on, but, very often, they’re done in isolation, and, actually, if we are going to see an overall improvement in the health of young people and children here in Wales, it does need a co-ordinated approach and some clear targets about where we want to be in five and 10 years’ time.

I can appreciate that targets, very often, can be very prescriptive and limit some of the more imaginative thinking that might need to be developed, especially in some of our rural areas, where delivery of service can be more challenging, but, ultimately, if the Government has a strategy and a goal, at least the whole muscle of Government, and the supporting bodies underneath that, can work in that direction and that common goal that we all want to see, which is an overall lifting of the chances of young people here in Wales.

I recently undertook a visit to ACT, the training provider just down in Cardiff South and Penarth, which I’m sure the Cabinet Secretary is aware of; it’s in his constituency. Darren Millar, my education spokesman, came along with me there, and they were highlighting that the safe space initiative that they’ve created there for young people who found problems in their school life and haven’t settled into the normal school day—through that safe space culture, through that safe space initiative, they have offered those young people the opportunity to really regain their confidence, regain the appetite for education, and, ultimately, gain a purpose. I’d commend that initiative to the Cabinet Secretary. I appreciate it sits in the education field, but surely, also, if you have children who feel fulfilled and feel content, that has a direct impact on their health as well, then, it does. I see the Cabinet Secretary acknowledging that he’s familiar with it. It’s not just here in Cardiff we need to see that ability, it’s across Wales, and I do commend ACT for developing a satellite hub in Caerphilly to offer the same sort of initiatives and opportunities.

I’d also like to develop the theme about air pollution that has been brought forward by Caroline Jones, and I raised it in First Minister’s questions yesterday. Again, this is an area that the Government can make significant progress on. They do have the levers, via the planning system, via the transport system, via the public health system that is here in Wales, to make significant improvements and gains in this area. It cannot be right that we tolerate 2,000 people dying prematurely here in Wales—five people a day—and actually we are not making the progress that we should be in these areas when we have the solutions at our disposal. I accept you will never get to zero, but we can make some real, deep-seated changes to the way people work, the way people go about their everyday lives, that would have a huge impact. I would suggest that any other field that would be seeing 2,000 people a year dying prematurely would be commanding greater attention from the Government in using some of the levers they have. Again, I do hope that the Minister, maybe, will be able to engage in what measures he has set specifically to Public Health Wales to make improvements in this particular area.

Another area I’d also like to touch on in particular is the event that Angela hosted at lunchtime, where many women who have suffered the tragedy of abuse—physical and mental abuse—in their lives have managed to rebuild, and get the confidence back to actually bring up their families and actually put themselves on the road to being valuable members of our community after being so demoralised—and humiliated, I think, was the examples that were given to us, and their self-confidence so destroyed by the abuse that they’d gone through. There were many good examples there, again, of where good practice could be brought forward, and my colleague Angela Burns did bring forward that in earlier questioning about some of the experiences in Germany. Why should the victim be the person who is hounded out of the community that they have lived and been brought up in, when the perpetrator very often stays within that community? Again, we can look around and find good examples of good practice that the Government can use, with the resources they have, to develop the process of supporting people in the community to rebuild their lives, rebuild their confidence, and become valuable members of our society again and not feel alienated and pushed to the margins. To see the work that that group has done is admirable to say the least.

In closing, I would just like to touch on the additional learning needs Bill that is currently going through the Assembly. I’ve taken some representations, in particular from Diabetes Cymru, that have touched on health needs that, at the moment, in the way the Bill is drafted, don’t sit within the Bill—they sit within the regulations, I understand. I can see the Deputy Minister indicating that—the Minister indicating that. I’ll give him sudden promotion again. But, again, I’d like to see if the health Minister does support the calls for health needs, and the underlying health needs of young people, to be included in the Bill, because, obviously, that is an important category that that legislation does need to capture, and, again, it would have a massive impact on improving life chances for young people here in Wales.

So, with those couple of comments, I look forward to hearing the Cabinet Secretary’s responses, because, working joined up and collectively, we can make a big difference to the outlook of young people here in Wales.

As human beings, we have basic needs: food, water, warmth and rest, security and comfort. These very basic needs have to be met before we can even start to aim to fulfil our potential. My children are lucky enough to come home every night to a familiar place—a place that they know, a place that they call home. It’s a place where they feel safe, where they feel that they belong. It’s where they have their favourite belongings: a cuddly toy, their books, their toys, their beds. It’s a place that is their own.

I’m astounded to find that, last Christmas, over 1,100 children were homeless here in Wales. No home means no roots. It means children have anxiety, stress and worries that no child should expect in twenty-first century Britain. This figure includes children who are homeless and living in temporary accommodation. It does not include 16 to 17-year-old independent children who have left home or care through choice or not.

One thousand one hundred children—that cannot be right. This represents twice the headcount of St Joseph’s in Wrexham. What chance have those children got to get back onto any sort of level playing field, considering the experiences that they must have had while spiralling into homelessness and the experiences they may have while striving to get out of it?

We really need to focus on the root causes of the ills that plague our society. It’s tragic that the very basic and fundamental needs of Welsh children are not being met. They deserve better.

Thank you very much. I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Health, Well-being and Sport. Vaughan Gething.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I’d like to thank Members for tabling a debate on this important and wide-ranging topic. I’m happy to confirm the Government supports all of the amendments.

We launched the Healthy Child Wales programme in October last year, for all children and their families, to improve health, social and educational development and long-term physical, mental and social outcomes. The programme will safeguard the health of children through screening and surveillance services from birth to seven years of age. The programme promotes resilience and is aimed to empower families to make informed choices to provide safe and nurturing environments.

I just want to deal gently with one of the points that Angela Burns made at the start, and that was the percentage spend within health services on women and children. I don’t think that’s actually a helpful approach, simply because I think we’re trying to have a whole-service approach to see that whole person in their context. There are actually many other areas of spend and activities that won’t be captured in the figures you represent that are of course hugely important to what health and care services can do as their contribution in partnership with others too. Much of the rest of your contribution recognised and reflected on the fact that we need to see children in that whole context and where they have those interactions and what those could and should do to improve.

I welcome the tone of contributions in the debate, including the way that Angela Burns set off. I’m happy to continue to discuss what we could and should do from a Welsh Government perspective to improve outcomes for children and their families. But, we should not try to get away from the unavoidable reality of what else is happening outside this place too.

For example, support for families renting houses is not devolved. Since 2011, in this area and others, there have been continual cuts from the UK Government to that support. That is a deliberate choice and it means less support for families in need, the majority of whom are actually in work. It’s only one example of the choices the UK Government have made that have had a very real impact upon outcomes and prospects for children. Sadly, it is going to get worse.

Poverty is the biggest limiting factor for the health, well-being and future prospects of our children. The Institute for Fiscal Studies forecasts that the number of children across the UK who will grow up in poverty will expand by more than 1 million so that over 5 million children in the UK will live in poverty. They will be driven into poverty by the direct and deliberate choices of the UK Government. That will affect all that we can do and what we are able to achieve with and for children and their families.

Here in Wales, I’m pleased to say we take a different approach. We invest over £124 million annually in the Supporting People programme to support vulnerable families and help prevent problems early. Local authority homelessness services have a statutory duty to refer households with children to social services where they’re at risk of becoming intentionally homeless.

And of course, in education, we recognise that development sets the basis for a child’s health development. That’s why the Donaldson review of the curriculum in Wales, ‘Successful Futures’, recognises that children and young people need to experience social, emotional and physical well-being to engage successfully with their education—seeing that child in their whole context. As Members will know, Welsh Ministers have accepted all of the recommendations set out in that report for education across the six areas of learning and experience. One of those areas is, of course, health and well-being, to draw in themes including mental, physical and emotional well-being. We’ll continue to work with pioneer schools to develop the health and well-being guidance to support the curriculum framework.

The Welsh Government is also transforming the additional learning needs system. It is vital that all children and young people in Wales are able to access education that meets their needs and enables them to participate in the learning experience. The Additional Learning Needs and Education Tribunal (Wales) Bill will drive us towards this and provide a fair and equitable system for all learners with additional learning needs. I’m happy to confirm again that the health needs that are not learning needs will be subject to statutory guidance that the Minister will publish before the end of this month.

I recognise the importance of providing a long-term vision for child health. One of the points that Angela Burns made was certainly in the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health’s recent report, and that’s why I’m happy to confirm today that this Government will develop a new children’s health plan to directly respond to that central recommendation.

I’ve listened to stakeholders, and I recognise the need to describe the national priority areas that health services should be addressing to improve outcomes for children and young people. I also recognise the role of improved data collection in the understanding of child health in Wales—in general terms, but also to support this plan.

In respect of the direct points made about the cancer delivery plan, we have a further renewed focus on delivering person-centred care. The most recent cancer patient experience survey showed how well services are delivered to the adult population. We recognise the need to develop patient-reported experience measures for children affected by cancer to ensure that we are meeting their needs. We will consider extending the age range for those taking part in this survey in future commissioning.

For the first time, in 2016, the Welsh Government published data on local authority counselling services that operate in secondary schools and year six of primary schools. Over 5 per cent of children who went to the school counselling service in 2014-15 did so for reasons that relate to bullying. Evidence shows that a counselling service within an overall schools strategy can be highly effective in preventing the escalation of mental health problems. We expect schools to make it clear that peer bullying will not be tolerated and that the anti-bullying message is put into practice.

The Cabinet Secretary for Education is currently reviewing anti-bullying policy to ensure that it remains fit for purpose. We’re determined to have clear and consistent support for people being bullied, and we want to reinforce our aim to create space for people to report and be supported through bullying.

In 2015-16, I announced over £1.5 million for new recurrent funding to develop community-based perinatal mental health services to improve outcomes for women with perinatal illness. The NHS reports that more than 1,500 women have been referred to community perinatal services since April 2016. I, of course, recently announced an increase in spending on mental health generally by a further £20 million within the Welsh Government’s budget that this place has passed. We continue to spend more on mental health services than on any other part of NHS Wales. We will, of course, monitor the effectiveness and impact of this new perinatal mental health support to ensure consistency across Wales for vulnerable families.

Through our network of Welsh healthy schools schemes, we’re supporting schools to create an environment to help tackle obesity. Over 99 per cent of maintained schools in Wales are actively involved in these schemes.

Of course, I recognise the points made in the motion and the amendments about sport. We don’t want to forget the importance of physical education within the curriculum, but of course PE is much more than simply sport. We do, of course, want schools to offer excellent sporting facilities. That’s why our twenty-first century schools and education programme will see an additional £1.4 billion of investment in schools and colleges to provide learners with the state-of-the-art facilities that will inspire them to fulfil their potential. I’m happy to briefly confirm, in response to Darren Millar, that the school nursing framework is being developed with and by the workforce itself, and it will be launched in the near future.

In finishing, Deputy Presiding Officer, I’m happy to confirm that I look forward to working with people across different parties in this Chamber and outside this place. I look forward to doing that to help to deliver the very best possible outcomes for children and their families here in Wales.

Thank you very much. I call on Angela Burns to reply to the debate.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. Cabinet Secretary, the Welsh Conservatives are delighted to hear about the children’s health plan that you are proposing, because this is at the heart of this debate. The reason we brought this is because, whilst you highlighted a great number of initiatives within health, within education—all of which are welcome—it’s about driving a theme, it’s about weaving a golden thread through the various fabrics of the Government. We want to see—and I hate this word ‘overarching’, but it does actually encompass it—an overarching vision, because these children are our future of tomorrow and if we can make them healthy, resilient, content and robust internally today, then they will be able to cope so much better with what happens in their futures.

We talk about the great strains on the Welsh NHS in terms of financial constraints. We talk about the obesity crisis, the smoking epidemic and the air pollution problems. All of it has to be pulled together in a way that we can start today with the youngest of our young and move them forward and look at it in a holistic way. I’d like to work with you. We would like to work with you to ensure that this child health plan actually looks at it in that collaborative way. It’s rather like the National Assembly for Wales, which has sustainability and equality as driving principles that underpin this place. I would like to see child health and the well-being of children as the driving principle that underpins all Government policies. It’s something that over the years various committees—. I think the Deputy Presiding Officer and I were both members of the Children and Young People committee when we looked at budgeting and how budgets can impact on child health and child educational outcomes.

I thought that Rhun ap Iorwerth made some very, very valid points on the amendments. Tackling obesity: there’s an example of where, if we had a vision where we understand that obesity is a problem in terms of health, then we would actually be driving that change at school level. You’re right, Cabinet Secretary; it’s not just about elite sport or sport. Actually, it’s about fun. It’s about going outside and bopping around in a gym or in a playground, getting active and getting moving. If we have that overarching vision, that golden thread, then we’d be looking, right from cradle to grave, at how we make ourselves healthy. To be frank, for someone of my age it’s probably a done deal, but my goodness me, the two-year-olds, the three-year-olds, the four-year-olds, the seven-year-olds, my girls—12 and 14—all our children—

The trampoline awaits.

I’m not sure trampolining would sustain me, actually, David Melding. [Laughter.] I don’t want to break any other bones. But it’s about catching the young and changing their lifestyles and changing their expectations. The other thing we haven’t touched upon is this: a healthy, emotionally resilient individual who at 18, 19 or 20 goes into a job or goes into higher education will actually be somebody who will succeed much better in their life. They will actually have better outcomes and, in turn, will bring up happier, healthier and more resilient children. I’m very pleased to hear that you’re going to take this forward and try to build a vision. We will work with you. I’d like to thank everyone—I haven’t had a chance to say thank you to everyone—for taking part in the debate.

The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Object.] Therefore, we’ll defer voting under this item until voting time.

We move on to item 7 on our agenda this afternoon, which is the Plaid Cymru debate on the Family Fund. I call on Rhun ap Iorwerth to move the motion. Rhun.

Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer. I’m very pleased to open this debate. It is quite a simple debate, if truth be told, with a very clear focus. It is a debate on how we protect and defend some of our poorest families, and some of our most vulnerable families. It highlights a situation when, in reality, a policy that could be a good one could be actually depriving this very vulnerable group of people through the small print, if you like. Now, I wasn’t aware of the Family Fund, I have to admit, until I met one of its trustees, who is a constituent of mine. She explained to me the value of the fund, and also explained what would be lost through making cuts to that fund. The main purpose of the Family Fund is to distribute public funds in the form of grants to families of ill and disabled children. Families can bid for grants towards items for the home, bedding or other equipment—everyday items that can alleviate the pressures of caring for a severely disabled child. They may provide some £500 per annum to low-income families who most need the help. Now, woe betide us if we forget that £500 is a huge amount of money. It is a huge amount of money to low-income families, certainly. My fellow Members I know will expand on some of the ways in which that funding can be used and how that funding is crucial to these families.

I’m going to focus, if I may, on why I believe the Government’s amendment to our motion is a failure to understand and recognise what is at stake here. A document sent to Assembly Members yesterday—I’m sure many of you will have had an opportunity to see that document—notes that Carers Wales, Contact a Family Wales and Learning Disability Wales are very disappointed that the Government’s amendment to this debate fails to recognise or tackle the financial impact that this directly has on low-income families with disabled children in terms of cutting funds to the Family Fund by over £5.5 million over three years. That’s 2016-17 and 2018-19. It goes on to say that this is not a general issue of project funding for the third sector but one that directly affects low-income families with disabled children, with over 4,000 families per year in Wales now unable to access an annual grant of £500, on average—£500 that can make a huge impact on the annual budget of low-income families. And they remind us that the three other administrations in the UK have maintained their financial support for the Family Fund at the 2015-16 level. The Department for Education in England announced yesterday, by coincidence, that it will continue to fund this programme—a sum of £81 million over three years.

I would add that the Government amendment does suggest that Ministers haven’t been aware, or haven’t taken account of the fact that the shift in funding to the sustainable social services’ third sector grant scheme has had this impact on direct funding to families. There is no alternative. Noting other programmes available and the availability of welfare rights, for example, doesn’t make up for the fact that this is a direct loss to these families, particularly in a climate where other sources of support are disappearing. The stories of service users that we’ve heard have demonstrated this, and, again, I quote from the document from Carers Wales, Contact a Family Wales and Learning Disability Wales, which quotes a parent who can no longer access Family Fund support: ‘As the parent of a profoundly disabled child, I know how difficult and discouraging it is to try to carry on during a time of reduced budgets as well as hostility, on the part of the Westminster government, towards disability benefits. We carry on as best we can, but we live on the edge of not coping, financially as well as in other ways.’ The Family Fund grants are a lifeline to so many—that’s what that parent had to say.

We have presented this motion, having heard from organisations that are frustrated with the current situation—with the loss of the funds but also the absence of any recognition that there has been a cut, because there has been a cut. That is why we have worded this in a way that provides an alternative way forward for the Government. If there is an alternative approach using a different model to the Family Fund, well, fine, let’s consider that. But what’s important for us, and what’s important in the wording of this motion is that that direct support should be available in some way, and that it should be restored.

Will you take an intervention?

Certainly.

Thank you. Of course, if this is passed today, not one penny will go through. The only way to get additional money for this is through the first supplementary budget, isn’t it?

I think you’re being mischievous. We are talking here about a fund that is not substituted by any other direct funding model by Government. That is why, I believe, it has been maintained by Governments in other parts of the UK. We need a realisation from Government that, despite the strengths, perhaps, of other measures that have been taken by the Government to support these families indirectly, that direct support needs to be reintroduced.

Will you take an intervention?

Certainly.

I’m just trying to clarify why it is you focus so closely on the Family Fund, because there are 32 organisations that have benefitted from this social services grant scheme and the Family Fund isn’t the only game in town in terms of support for disabled families, and it’s important that we maximise the support that’s available for them through various organisations.

I would reiterate the point: there is no other direct payment scheme available. That is the value of the Family Fund in particular. Yes, there are other elements of Government support, which is indirect and of course can support families, but there is no substitute for the direct funding that goes to the poorest families. [Interruption.] Well, it is true, and we are talking about the most vulnerable and the poorest of families through means-testing. And that is why it is so cruel that this funding source has been taken away, when Governments in other parts of the United Kingdom have, in my view, taken the correct decision, as the department of education did in England—coincidentally, I add, yesterday—to maintain the £81 million of funding in England over a period of three years.

Mi oeddwn i, fel yr oeddwn i’n ei ddweud, yn cynnig ffordd ymlaen yn y geiriad yma i’r Llywodraeth drwy ddweud ein bod ni ddim yn dweud bod yn rhaid i hyn ddigwydd drwy’r Family Fund. Os oes yna ffordd amgen i gynnig cyllid uniongyrchol i bobl, mi fyddem ni’n hapus iawn i hynny ddigwydd, ac a dweud y gwir, rwy’n credu ein bod ni wedi disgwyl y byddai’r Llywodraeth yn cytuno i edrych ar hyn ac yna chwilio am ffordd ymlaen. Felly, mi oedd gwelliant y Llywodraeth yn siom fawr a dweud y lleiaf, ac yn atgyfnerthu’r sefyllfa yr ydym ni ynddi hi, lle y mae’n ymddangos nad ydy’r Llywodraeth yn cydnabod bod y cyllid uniongyrchol yma yn cael ei dorri a bod dim byd arall i ddod yn ei le o.

Rŷm ni’n cefnogi gwelliant y Ceidwadwyr. Fel y mae hwnnw’n ei nodi, Cymru ydy’r unig genedl sydd ddim wedi parhau i gyllido’n llawn y gronfa hanfodol. Rwy’n edrych ymlaen at y ddadl y prynhawn yma. Rwy’n gobeithio y gallwn ni i gyd gytuno bod y teuluoedd mwyaf bregus yma a’r plant mwyaf bregus yn haeddu ein cymorth uniongyrchol ni. Gadewch inni felly ystyried hynny wrth inni fwrw pleidlais yn nes ymlaen y prynhawn yma.

I have selected the two amendments to the motion, and I call on the Minister for Social Services and Public Health to move formally amendment 1 tabled in the name of Jane Hutt.

Formally.

I call on Mark Isherwood to move amendment 2 tabled in the name of Paul Davies. Mark Isherwood.

Diolch, Lywydd. Families with disabled children have higher costs but lower incomes than other families. Contact a Family research shows that the extra cost relating to a child’s condition could be £300 or more every month, with 84 per cent of families with disabled children having gone without leisure and days out. For over 40 years, the Family Fund’s main function has been to help redress the balance by distributing public money across the UK in the form of grants to low-income families with sick and disabled children, with families able to apply for an average £500 grant annually. Welsh Government funding to 2015-16 was £2.64 million, almost all distributed directly to 5,429 low-income families with disabled children across Wales.

The administrations in Scotland, England and Northern Ireland have all maintained their financial support for the Family Fund at 2015-16 rates. However, since 2016, the Welsh Government has chosen to cut their contribution by £5.5 million, as we heard, over three years, meaning that, over 4,000 families each year across Wales will be unable to receive this support. In contrast, the UK Department for Education confirmed this week that it will maintain its £27.3 million annual Family Fund funding for three years up to 2020—£81.9 million in total—ensuring that tens of thousands of families in England will be able to rely on this extra support.

As the UK Minister of State for Vulnerable Children and Families, Edward Timpson MP, said,

No child, regardless of the obstacles they face, should miss out on vital life experiences’.

I therefore move amendment 2, which notes that the Governments of Northern Ireland, Scotland and England have all maintained their funding for the Family Fund.

Although policy in Wales has diverged since devolution, this funding continued, because it was a highly valued and cost-effective way of supporting families with disabled children. This position only changed in April 2016 when the Welsh Government decided to require the Family Fund to apply for its funding from the sustainable social services third sector grant scheme. It wasn’t sustainable. They do not appear to have published any analysis of the impacts such a substantial withdrawal of funding would have on the families affected. Welsh Government funding in 2016-17 fell to £900,000, including a one-off £400,000, and next year falls to just £499,000, reducing support to just an estimated 875 families.

Further, families in Wales are now only able to apply for a grant once every four years, whilst families in England, Scotland and Northern Ireland can apply every year, and they face restrictions on the type of support a grant can be used for in Wales. Insanely, these cuts will increase the financial burden on local authority and NHS budgets and run counter to the principles set out in the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 and the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014.

The Welsh Government has made a decision that will have detrimental effects on the very families they claim their policies are designed to support. By continuing to deflect the issue on to general funding for the voluntary sector, they are failing to acknowledge the direct negative impact their £5.5 million cut in funding is having. The charities Carers Wales, Contact a Family Cymru and Learning Disability Wales have expressed disappointment that the Welsh Government amendment fails to acknowledge or address the direct financial impact on low-income families with disabled and seriously ill children across Wales—the over 4,000 families in Wales now unable to access an annual grant. I think ‘disappointment’ is an understatement of the despair felt. As they state, this massive cut to low-income families with disabled children,

was an entirely predictable consequence of the decision to merge the Family Fund allocation into the Sustainable Social Services grant back in December 2015…a fact which the Equality Impact Assessment undertaken at the time completely failed to notice.’

They also point out that both the Families First programme and the annual funding for Citizens Advice Cymru, referred to in the Welsh Government amendment, pre-existed the decision to cut the Family Fund and that the Welsh Government has not reallocated an equivalent sum to support families with disabled children.

As one constituent told me:

My six-year-old is disabled and without the family fund, we wouldn’t have been able to make him safe in our garden nor offer him a tablet to help him with his disability’.

Well, a mature Welsh Government would stop doing things just to be different and start doing them better—stop doing things to people and start doing things with them.

It’s a pleasure to take part in this very important debate on the Family Fund. Of course, as we’ve heard, this is not the biggest fund ever, but it’s important because it provides direct funding to poor families who have children with serious illness and serious disabilities. The funding goes directly. It isn’t redirected through alternative sources that tend to suck some of the money out through administrative acts, whichever project they’re dealing with. Of course, it’s worth noting that there are additional costs in having a disability, particularly if we accept the social model of disability. That means that there is a responsibility on everyone, therefore, to recognise that social model of disability, and a responsibility on everyone to get rid of those barriers that are in the way of people who have a disability living a full life. So, in recognising the importance of that social model of disability, we have to accept that there are additional costs, therefore, to ensuring that people with disabilities can live a full life.

Of course, there are additional costs. There’s additional equipment as we’ve heard already. There is very complex care, and not all of it can be provided by the health service or social services. Parents have to work flexibly, sometimes not at all, and, of course, this causes great stress for families. I do believe that it is a moral duty on us as a society generally to help to look after our most vulnerable children, because we could all have been a parent of a child with a disability. Very fortunately the majority of us aren’t in that position, but I do think that there is a moral duty on us to help to look after those parents who are in that situation. Because, as a GP—I’m not sure if I’ve mentioned this previously—having spent 30 years as a GP in Swansea I have known and still know a lot of families who have this problem on a long-term basis. I’ve seen babies born, and now they’re adults with extreme disabilities, and the stress has been huge, and, yes, as a health service and social services we can provide as much as we can, but there are always additional costs that families have to bear.

The financial pressure, of course, is worse in a family on a low income. It’s double jeopardy.We know already that poverty leads to poor health, but think, if you have poor health to start with because you have a disability, then poverty makes things worse. Those two things affect the quality of your life because it’s very difficult when there is insufficient funding. On top of that, families do feel under great oppression. People don’t want to have to ask for additional funding all the time, and they do feel alienation, particularly from the Government at Westminster in terms of the benefits and so forth. On top of that now, they are losing this direct funding. As has been already noted, the loss of the Family Fund is not happening in any other country. Wales is the only country losing this direct payment, and Wales is the poorest country. It doesn’t make sense. England, Scotland and Northern Ireland are maintaining their Family Funds.

Basically, we are losing funding here. I know how these things happen: there’s restructuring, and there are unintended consequences, as they would say over the border. But, basically, families are losing direct funding. Our motion notes an opportunity to give this money back in any way, but it’s important that the money does go directly to those families and isn’t sucked into any kind of project funding structures in the third sector and then lost in terms of being direct funding for our most vulnerable families. Thank you very much.

UKIP fully support the motion before us today.The Family Fund provides an invaluable service to families with disabled children and it is highly regrettable that the Welsh Government took the decision to cut the fund. The loss of £5.5 million from the Family Fund in Wales means that thousands of families are being denied the kind of support that families in the rest of the UK enjoy.

I understand the Welsh Government’s assertion that they have to manage limited resources; however, when you announce that you are making £10 million available to develop flights between Cardiff and London Heathrow, I have to question the Welsh Government’s priorities. We are denying emergency help and respite to thousands of disabled children at the same time as we are trying to buy additional business for Cardiff Airport. I cannot agree with the Welsh Government’s decision on this. UKIP fully support what the Government are trying to do with Cardiff Airport, but in times when money is tight, we should not be trying to entice airlines to fly between Cardiff and Heathrow, especially not at the expense of disabled children. The £10 million the Welsh Government have set aside for the airport would pay for the Family Fund for the next six years. I’m not saying to cancel the route development, just postpone it until such time as we can afford it, and not press ahead at the expense of disabled children.

I urge the Welsh Government to reconsider. I will stand by the over 4,000 low-income families with disabled children affected by this decision. Carers Wales, Contact a Family Cymru and Learning Disability Wales are calling for the Welsh Government to reverse its decision and restore the Family Fund to, at the very least, its previous levels. UKIP will be rejecting the Welsh Government’s amendment and will be supporting the Welsh Conservatives’ amendment. I urge colleagues to do likewise. Let’s send out a clear message: austerity does not mean penalising the most vulnerable in our society. Thank you.

As we know, the Family Fund offers about £500 a year to low-income families who most need help. The fact that this money can be used so flexibly is key. One charity manager told me that this is the only source she can turn to now for a number of issues, including, for example, money to support families to have short holidays, which they deserve—weekend breaks that are so beneficial, but that they would never be able to afford without this fund. Because the fund depends on the income level of the family, that means that only the families who most need help to have a holiday receive support. Therefore, cutting the direct grants means that some of the most vulnerable families in Wales will suffer.

I want to talk about three families I know of, and how they have benefited directly from the fund. A family of four—mum, dad and two children, two and three years old—and the oldest child has severe disabilities that mean regular trips—weekly, sometimes daily—to the hospital. It means staying at the hospital, far away from home, on a regular basis. The parents’ care for that child is exceptional. The mother is in her 20s, and both have given up work in order to care for the child. It would be very difficult for them to work, particularly as the youngest also needs care. By the way, the community’s care for this family is inspiring. The community has raised money to buy bespoke play equipment for the village playground. The child joins in with his peers in the village despite the disability.

They use the money they obtain from the fund to help them pay travel costs to the hospital. They need to visit Ysbyty Gwynedd often, 15 miles away. They also need to visit Alder Hey Hospital in Liverpool regularly—a journey of nearly two hours there and two hours back along the A55, which often means that the journey takes three to four hours. They have to use the car, because that’s been adapted especially for the child. They would never get there in time by using public transport. They need to pay a toll of £1.70 for every journey on top of the travel costs, and that’s aside from food, accommodation costs and so forth. It is possible to apply for some travel funding from the health board or the hospital, but only after payment. Every receipt must be kept carefully, and that’s the last thing on the mind of anyone in such difficult circumstances.

The second family has an autistic child. They have benefited from the fund in a different way: they have had funding to buy a large freezer, which means that they can buy large quantities of food at the same time and freeze it. Shopping with an autistic child is not always an easy task. They live in a rural area and they therefore save on petrol costs by making fewer trips. The nearest store is six miles away. It is from the Family Fund that they got the money to pay for the freezer. It would have taken years for this family to save up to buy it.

The third family includes a deaf child. This family also lives in a rural area. The child has a hearing aid and needs to be monitored regularly at Ysbyty Gwynedd, which entails an hour-long journey from home both ways. Petrol costs mean that the family sometimes decide not to attend the appointments—they skip them—and of course, if that happens three times in succession, the child can drop off the radar of the hospital services, and that can lead to significant problems down the line.

In accordance with the spirit of the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015, we must acknowledge the preventative value of the fund. With this family, from prioritising other things above the petrol costs to attend hospital appointments, problems can arise with the hearing aid; problems with communication and education can arise; the child falls behind at school, and needs extra support, and then significant costs start to develop. A problem that could be resolved simply by offering a small pot of money for travel then develops into a major expensive problem, and of course the child suffers in all of this.

As we’ve heard, children and families in England can access a similar fund for three more years. In Wales, the fund could support 5,429 families—similar families to those that I’ve described. This year, 1,500 will receive support, and next year, the estimate is that 875 families alone will receive support. There are 4,000 families like the ones I’ve talked about today—some of our most vulnerable families—that will be worse off.

The annual reduction of the Family Fund is £1.83 million. So, just to give this a little bit of context: this debate is scheduled for 60 minutes, 20 minutes after this debate finishes, the UK Government will have given that amount out in foreign aid. We are a wealthy nation. We do have money.

I’ve done some basic sums based on correspondence that I’ve received, so the figures may differ, but you’ll get the picture from what I’m about to say. There are roughly 5,429 families eligible for the Family Fund. That amounts to about £337 per family. What does this sum add up to? Well, it’s just over the cost of two tv licences, or a month’s grocery shopping, or even a little more than a day’s allowance for an elected lord. This is a small amount of money, but it provides those who receive it with very welcome respite.

Raising and caring for a child with a disability can be both mentally and physically challenging, putting additional strain on budgets, health, emotions and relationships. Wales now finds itself out of kilter with the rest of the UK. We’re lagging behind once again. These sums of money, while relatively small, and with no obvious and immediate social or economic benefit, have a disproportionate effect on a set of our society for whom life is challenging enough already.

A beneficiary of the Family Fund—she’s called Kate—has told me that her daughter was diagnosed with cerebral palsy at 10 months old. Neither parent could drive. Hospital appointments, shopping, and trips out were all dependent on others. The Family Fund paid for driving lessons and a test for Kate. She had to pass the test, and pass she did, first time. That gave the family some freedom. She was no longer reliant on others, and her child could get to her many and varied appointments in the adapted car that she needed—a relatively small sum of money, making a massive difference. Fifteen years later, Kate still drives that adapted car, she still ferries her child around to the many and varied appointments she continues to need, and always will need, along with the social requirements that a 16-year-old girl has.

The thing is that this ability to drive also opened up the job market to Kate. She now works full time, contributing to society, and is a great role model for her daughters. The Family Fund is not using a company credit card to purchase luxury lingerie, nor is it funding five-star trips to Barbados; it is funding a new washing machine or a long weekend away in an adapted and accessible caravan in the UK, giving much needed respite—things that many of us here take for granted.

I’ve no doubt that all of our inboxes have been inundated with e-mails from our constituents about this vote today—you know, those real people we are here to represent and for whom we are supposed to speak. Welsh Labour would do well to remember that when they are voting on this motion later. Anyone voting against this motion is out of touch with real people and they need to get out into the real world.

Every other administration in the UK has maintained funding. Yet again, Welsh Labour lets down those who need the help the most. One final word to you, Minister: you cannot dress this up, as you will no doubt seek to do. This is a reduction, a taking away, a deterioration in provision. Any suggestion to the contrary is outrageous. Mark Drakeford called on the Chancellor today to reverse the cuts in the budget. Well, get your own house in order, follow your own advice, and reverse this devastating cut.

I think many people have made the point quite clearly about the importance of the Family Fund, so I want to put the debate in the wider context of disability and the fact that cuts to other benefits have, of course, frequently affected disabled people in a disproportionate manner. We’ve heard about some of the higher profile Government cuts in this area, but there have been over 100 changes to social security in recent years, and some of them have flown under the radar for many. We must consider the cumulative impact of all of these changes on this particular decision here today, because losing £5 a week may not sound much to the wealthy backers of some of the other parties here today, but, when this happens hundreds of times, we must consider the overall impact of these often punitive changes on people.

When I read the briefing from Carers Wales and Contact a Family—. As Sian Gwenllian has already said, this was £500 of a grant. In the wider perspective of things, this is not a very big grant for people to access. It’s actually quite staggering to see, from the e-mails that I’ve had, what can be done with that money and why they see that as so valuable.

So, to try and be constructive, what I’d like to understand is, if there’s going to be debate around what’s coming after Communities First—and I know that there’s going to be extension of some funds—whether there can be a discussion as to whether this is part of that particular process. Because, of course, when we’re discussing new poverty programmes, we have to discuss that in the context of what’s being cut now or changed now so that we can prepare for that in the future, and we wouldn’t want to see, and I’m sure nobody in this Chamber would want to see, certain families being disproportionately affected.

I think that’s why I was concerned to see, again, the briefing that there would be no adverse effect on people from the decision to move funding to the sustainable social services third sector grant scheme. So, I need to understand what that scheme will say. Will there be ring-fencing within that scheme so that families can understand how they can track that scheme and how they can see where the money’s going? Because I think that’s a key concern. Because, at the moment, they can see the budget for what it is and they can analyse it for what it is, and I think that’s a concern for many, ongoing.

Yes, as many have said already today, we have had e-mails regarding this issue—I think that is reflective of the importance of the issue. We wouldn’t just receive e-mails if they weren’t important. I think this shouldn’t be downplayed, therefore—4,000 families with disabled children are losing out again. We expect it from the UK Government, don’t we? We expect it from them, with regard to the changes that they’re making through welfare reform and the way that they are targeting those most vulnerable. I would be very sorry to see it, if the Welsh Government followed in this way, because, of course, that shouldn’t be something for a party of the left to be doing.

I have to make sure that we support them and raise their concerns, because it might invite a debate over the fact that there may be additional barriers to people voting and taking part in politics from minorities in general. We are here to reflect everybody’s voice, and if disabled people face additional barriers to taking part in that debate, feel that their voice isn’t being heard properly about changes to budgets, then I think that’s something that’s very worrying indeed. So, I hope from today’s debate that we can see a positive outcome and that they can be assured that the money that they need and deserve will find its way to them.

I call on the Minister for Public Health and Social Services, Rebecca Evans.

Thank you, Presiding Officer. Today’s debate provides me with an opportunity to confirm the Welsh Government’s commitment to supporting disabled children and their families, and to talk about the significant investment we’re making to ensure that they receive the services and support they need.

The Family Fund is one element of the support that we have put in place, and it must be seen in the wider context. I wrote to all Assembly Members last November setting out the background and the context to the robust and rigorous approach that was taken in relation to the funding decisions for the sustainable social services third sector grants scheme, which were taken in 2014. This scheme brought together four separate grant schemes, including the Family Fund grant, bringing together some £22 million into a single grant in order to support the delivery and implementation of the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014 and to take forward our priorities of enabling all citizens in Wales to achieve their well-being outcomes and to live fulfilling lives.

We want to make sure that people have the control and are involved in the decisions that are made about the services that they receive. We are evaluating the impact of the Act to ensure that it’s delivering what we set out to achieve. This includes monitoring policies to ensure that they’re being implemented and are supporting improvement. This new grant scheme firmly enables third sector organisations as important partners to support our transformational approach to the delivery of sustainable social services in Wales. It’s an approach that is based on ensuring equity and fairness for all of those who are in need of care and support.

It’s neither accurate nor fair to suggest that there has been a cut in support for disabled families through our grants for the third sector. I want to emphasise that the Welsh Government has maintained the overall grant funding levels for the third sector in this area. We’ve created a fairer approach by supporting the widest range of third sector organisations possible, making sure that every part of the community can benefit from funding available—for example, our approach has allowed us to fund Carers Wales with £670,000 to provide support to disabled children and their families. The project raises awareness of caring, and supports families to manage their caring roles and to be involved in service improvement and delivery.

It’s also allowed us to fund Learning Disability Wales with £930,000 for a project that supports families to understand their rights and entitlements, to have their voices heard, to control decisions about their care, and to co-design the support that they receive.

Similarly, the All Wales Forum of Parents and Carers of People with Learning Disabilities receives over £400,000 to support families of people with learning disabilities to understand their entitlements and to control decisions about their care. It aims to improve early intervention and prevention and to support the co-design and delivery of services.

There were 84 applications to the new grants scheme, amounting to funding requests of £69 million. We’re funding 32 organisations, and the Family Fund was successful in being awarded the maximum grant available, £1.5 million. The Family Fund was also in the unique position of being awarded an additional £400,000 as a transition grant this year, including £30,000 to help them refocus their funding model to become sustainable in the future.

Disabled families tell us that the thing they value most is respite care. So, we’ve asked the Family Fund to focus on the provision of respite, and we expect them to use at least 70 per cent of their grant providing this. They do, however, maintain the flexibility to fund other things where there’s an exceptional need. Where a child has a statement of special educational needs and the provision of ICT equipment is identified as a need then the local authority must ensure that this is provided to support the child’s education.

It’s clear from today’s debate that there is agreement that we need to ensure that families can maximise their household income, with money going direct to the family. The most high impact and sustainable way of doing this is not through small, individual grants, but by supporting families to ensure that they’re receiving all of the benefits to which they are entitled. Since 2012, we have been providing over £2 million a year to Citizens Advice for their Better Advice, Better Lives scheme, which is unique to Wales. It’s not happening in England, it’s not happening in Scotland, and it’s not happening in Northern Ireland. But in Wales it operates in every local authority, offering face-to-face advice. And this is the most important thing. In 2015-16 alone, the project supported over 1,800 families with disabled children, overall generating over £3.5 million in additional benefits for these families. In the first nine months of the current financial year, the service has supported 1,400 families, generating a further £3,300,000 in benefits: money that these families are entitled to and now are receiving week after week, and not as a one-off payment. So, our Wales-only approach is high impact and it’s sustainable.

Families in the greatest need can access the Families First programme, and we’re providing over £42 million this year and the same amount next year. This includes £3 million ring-fenced for services for families affected by disability. Through the intermediate care fund this year we’ve provided regions in Wales with an additional £4 million to develop integrated services for people with learning disabilities and children with complex needs. We will continue to support this fund in future years. Also, through our new autism strategic action plan, we have committed £6 million to put in place a national all-age integrated autism service, which will create local teams in all areas, providing support across the age range, including for families. This is in addition to the £2 million we’re making available each year through the Together for Children and Young People programme to improve neuro-developmental assessment services.

We know that there’s more to do and that we need to be innovative in the way that we use financial resources. We’re currently refreshing the carers strategy, and, in a written statement I made last year, I made a commitment to examine a national approach to respite care, which we know is so valuable to families. We will review current provision with a view to strengthening the range and availability of respite services.

In terms of the Conservatives’ amendment, let me be clear, again, that the Welsh Government has not reduced the overall funding available. We have sought to distribute the funding that we have to promote fairness, equity, and to achieve long-lasting, sustainable improvements. I have demonstrated the significant support we are providing for disabled children and their families through the wider delivery of our programme for government.

So, to conclude, the funding of one organisation must be seen within the context of the wider strategic approach to delivering improvements to services and support for disabled children and their families. We must also recognise that it’s vital that we maximise the impact of all the funding that we provide to support long-term, sustainable benefits for families.

I call on Rhun ap Iorwerth to reply to the debate.

Thank you very much to everybody who’s taken part in both debates this afternoon: the debate that we heard the Minister talking about there, about overall funding, and the debate that we actually presented to the Assembly earlier, about direct funding through the Family Fund to some of the most vulnerable families in Wales.

I think said in my opening remarks that I think there’s a good overall policy here, but that there’s small print that is letting down some of our most vulnerable families. And that small print is the omission now or the decimation of that direct funding stream, and that is what we’re talking about; £500 is a substantial amount as a one-off payment for a low-income family. It’s the safe garden that we heard about. It’s the respite. It is the tablet. It is the freezer. It is the washing machine because a child’s disability means that they need to have their clothes and bed linen washed more frequently than most. It’s a small sum for Government, though. We’re talking here about £5.5 million over three years.

If I can comment on what Nathan Gill said, I can name a lot of things that I’d rather Government didn’t spend money on. We’re talking here about what we want Welsh Government to spend money on. We can talk, if you like, about the £360 million that’s going to be spent on Buckingham Palace or the doubling of the funding of the royal family that’s just been passed, but that’s not what we’re talking about here. We’re talking specifically about what Welsh Government can do, and I think it says everything about your politics that you want to use this debate about vulnerable families in Wales to attack spend on UK foreign aid, much of which is spent on vulnerable families abroad—and I’m more than happy to continue to support them. We’re talking about a modest sum of money—[Interruption.] Yes, of course.

How did I attack it?

Read the Record in the morning. We are talking—[Interruption.]

Two people cannot talk at the same time. Rhun ap Iorwerth.

The Government Minister stated that support exists in other ways. I agree that support exists in other ways. I agree that it’s a very good idea to work with Citizens Advice in order to ensure that people have the support that they need to access benefits as much as possible. I agree with strategies on increasing respite, though not enough is being done. I agree that the third sector as a whole needs the resources in order to support vulnerable families and children. But I again stress that we are talking about a specific fund that is not substituted in any other part of third sector provision in Wales.

I think the case has been made here from all the opposition parties. There is no substitute for this funding. It is being maintained in other parts of the UK because it is such a specifically useful fund. I would ask again Government to withdraw the amendment, and to agree to consider the reinstatement of this direct funding to its previous level, either through the Family Fund, which seems to me to work well, or through other means, if you like, because it’s not how it’s done—it is having that access to these one-off pots of money that we want looked at. You may not think that £500 as a one-off is something that can make a real difference to people’s lives. We think it is.

The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Object.] I will defer voting under this item until voting time.

That brings us to voting time, and unless three Members wish for the bell to be rung, I will proceed directly to the vote. And the first vote is on the Welsh Conservative debate on child health. I call for a vote on the motion tabled in the name of Paul Davies. Open the vote. Close the vote. For 19, no abstentions, 36 against. And therefore, the motion is not agreed.

I now call for a vote on amendment 1 tabled in the name of Rhun ap Iorwerth. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 44, no abstentions, 11 against. And therefore, amendment 1 is agreed.

I now call for a vote on amendment 2 tabled in the name of Rhun ap Iorwerth. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 55, no abstentions and none against. Therefore, the amendment—amendment 2—is agreed.

I therefore call for a vote on amendment 3, tabled in the name of Jane Hutt. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 29, six abstentions and 20 against. Therefore, amendment 3 is agreed.

I call for a vote on amendment 4, tabled in the name of Rhun ap Iorwerth. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 55, no abstentions and none against. Therefore, amendment 4 is agreed.

I now call for a vote on the motion as amended.

Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 44, no abstentions and 11 against. Therefore, the motion as amended is agreed.

I now call for a vote on the Plaid Cymru debate on the Family Fund. I call for a vote on the motion, tabled in the name of Rhun ap Iorwerth. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 27, no abstentions and 28 against. Therefore, the motion is not agreed.

I now call for a vote on amendment 1, tabled in the name of Jane Hutt. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 28, no abstentions and 27 against. Therefore, amendment 1 is agreed.

I now call for a vote on amendment 2, tabled in the name of Paul Davies. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 27, 27 abstentions and one against. Therefore, the amendment is agreed.

I now call for a vote on the motion as amended.

Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 28, 17 abstentions and 10 against. The motion as amended is agreed.

If those Members leaving the Chamber would do so quietly, proceedings will continue. The next item on our agenda is the short debate. I call on Neil McEvoy to speak on the topic that he has chosen. Neil McEvoy.

Diolch, Lywydd. I’ll just wait for colleagues to clear the Chamber.

You do need to leave the Chamber. Proceedings are ongoing. This is not a time for chit-chat. Carry on.

Thanks. Okay. Please feel free to interject and contribute if you wish. The idea is to float this as something that we want to do in the not-too-distant future in this city. So, I’ve called a debate to see whether or not, here in the National Assembly for Wales, we can start to advance the idea of a Welsh stock exchange. I’m really pleased to see that Plaid Cymru’s policy of establishing a Welsh development bank, a policy we’ve had for a number of years, is about to happen, which is good. With tax powers being devolved and the Welsh Revenue Authority being set up, Wales is finally taking steps towards financial sovereignty, but one thing we don’t have is a stock exchange.

Stock exchanges play a different role to a development bank. Whereas a development bank is bound by strict due diligence and means businesses take on new debts, a stock exchange allows investors to take shares in a company, so they can complement each other very well.

Before I get into that, maybe I should clarify: rather than saying ‘still not having’ a stock exchange, it’s more accurate to say that we no longer have a stock exchange. The Coal Exchange, just minutes away from the Assembly, which, thankfully, is being renovated now, or saved from collapse, and is being redeveloped as a hotel, was a market floor for trading coal in Wales. As many of us know, the coal exchange was where the world’s first £1 million cheque was signed. So, Wales does have some pedigree here.

Stock exchanges are not like other businesses. The performance of national stock exchanges is often taken as a proxy for the health of a nation’s economy, or at least investor enthusiasm for the country’s prospects. National exchanges also play an underappreciated policy role in deciding and listing compliance standards for companies that wish to go public. On top of all that, there’s a nebulous but real sense that national pride is somehow tied into stock exchanges. I do think that it would contribute to pride in Wales if we could get one up and running.

Shares are often seen as complicated things, but the principle behind them is simple and straightforward. Shares, also known as equities, provide you with part ownership of a company, so when you invest in shares, you’re buying a share of that business. Companies issue shares to raise money and investors buy shares in a business because they believe the company will do well and they want a share in its success.

I want to see more Welsh people share in the success of Welsh companies and a stock exchange would give them the opportunity to do that. Owning shares in a company means that you’re entitled to have a say in its affairs. All public limited companies have annual meetings where shareholders vote on matters such as the company’s accounts, director appointments, pay packages and so on, and this is something that I want to see more of in Wales. I think it could help us to become a more prosperous and equal country. There are many examples around the world of smaller countries having their own exchanges: Gibraltar, Armenia, Cyprus and Iceland. The Sarajevo stock exchange was set up in 2001 and by 2005, market capitalisation had risen by around 20 times to €3.3 billion. The average daily trading volumes hit €1.5 million by 2005. This could be Wales. There are 25 Welsh companies currently listed on the London stock exchange, so that shows the potential that we have here.

It’s widely acknowledged that an exchange can help increase economic activity and drive economic growth. It can be a boost to business, and simply put, stock exchanges give companies the ability to raise capital and develop their businesses. The ability to list shares on a stock exchange and thereby raise money from investors, old and new, is an important boost to economic activity.

Access to capital makes it easier for companies to expand their operations and listing might one day draw the attention of mutual funds—institutional traders and so on—to the potential of a Welsh business. They’re also a shop window; anyone in the world could invest in a Welsh exchange. Establishing one has the potential of opening up the Welsh economy to greater international investment, allowing Welsh businesses and companies to benefit from global investors. This would take time, but it could also serve to enhance a company’s credibility and public profile. Listing on the stock market can be a form of indirect advertising for a company.

I suppose, really, the elephant in the room is that stock exchanges are typically private companies. There are some examples of publicly owned stock exchanges—the Shenzhen and Shanghai stock exchanges are really quasi-state institutions, as far as they were created by Government bodies in China and have leading personnel directly appointed by the China Securities Regulatory Commission.

Another example is the Tashkent republican stock exchange in Uzbekistan, which was established in 1994, three years after the collapse of the Soviet Union, and is mainly state owned, but has a form of a public corporation. But these aren’t models that I’d propose for Wales. It’s possible that the Welsh Government could play a role in a Welsh stock exchange, but the financial markets are a reserved matter, and so the regulation of listing and public offerings, securities and investments are beyond the competence of the Welsh Government. So, what we really need to think about is how we can give incentives and encourage a private company to set up a stock exchange in Wales. This could be through grants, through conferences, offices available in Cardiff or elsewhere.

I’m not going to speak any longer at this point. I would hope that others have bought into these ideas, and if anybody does want to contribute, I’d be very interested to hear what you’ve got to say. Thank you. Diolch.

Thank you very much. I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Economy and Infrastructure to reply to the debate. Ken Skates.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer, and can I start by welcoming this debate today on the establishment of a stock exchange for Wales? I’ve been very interested to learn from Neil McEvoy his views and his proposals for a Welsh stock exchange. This is a valuable debate, even though it’s not a new proposition. It is a suggestion that has been considered by previous Welsh Government administrations, as I’m sure the Member is aware.

In January 2010, a report on a Welsh stock exchange by Robert Huggins and Daniel Prokop was published, and that report, which was based on a sample of 1,500 companies, of which there were 169 responses, suggested that 36 per cent expressed some interest in listing on a Wales stock exchange. Delving a little more into the data, it was found that 8 per cent had considered flotation in the previous five years, 19 per cent would consider floating in the next five years, and a further 13 per cent in the 10 years after that. Clearly, it demonstrated some appetite and interest for a stock exchange in Wales, but it was concluded by that Government that the costs of establishing a stock exchange could not be justified. This is because the cost of establishing a stock exchange can run into many millions of pounds due to the significant set-up costs, including, of course, recruitment, staff training, IT systems and so forth.

In 2008, the Welsh Government investigated a number of opportunities to set up a stock market in Wales but, again, neither project progressed due to the lack of demand to support the costs. So, it’s not clear, still, whether there is a strong enough case to set up a regional stock market in Wales. One of the main rationales for setting up a stock exchange would be, as the Member has identified, to fill a gap in funding for businesses and provide an opportunity for companies to raise capital. Now, whilst we do, of course, recognise that access to finance continues to be a concern for businesses in Wales, there’s already a range of financial support available in Wales and it’s not clear what gap or what gaps would be filled by a regional stock exchange.

Supporting businesses in Wales is vital in creating jobs, driving economic growth, increasing productivity and so forth, and the success of business is critical in the growth of the economy right across communities in Wales. Improving access to finance has been a priority, therefore, for Government for many years, over which time we’ve introduced a range of funds and products. As Members are aware, we are continuing to progress the manifesto commitment to the establishment of a development bank of Wales, and it’s clear that growing businesses need access to growth capital. The development bank will help businesses find the right finance partner to leverage in private finance with its own gap finance when necessary. It’ll have the objective of providing greater levels of funding to SMEs, whilst at the same time improving the integration of the provision and advice and support to businesses by working more closely with Business Wales.

There are a couple more examples of the steps we’ve taken to support businesses financially immediately after the EU referendum vote. Of course, we launched the Business Wales confidence plan, which contained a series of actions that we are now delivering, and all are aimed at promoting business confidence and activity across the country. The interventions included the announcement of a new growth and prosperity fund, and our repayable fund for SMEs, so that Wales remains an attractive place for businesses to invest. Our Business Wales service was, of course, aligned, again, in January of last year, to make it easier for Welsh businesses and aspiring entrepreneurs to access the information, advice and support that they need to start up and grow their businesses.

In order to make a case for a Welsh stock exchange, we therefore need to understand clearly why Welsh firms are unable or, possibly, unwilling to access existing funding sources and stock exchanges. As I said at the beginning, this issue has been visited before, and, in the past, it was concluded that the research did not provide a strong enough argument for setting up a regional stock market. There’s no clear evidence that smaller, regional stock markets are particularly successful when in competition with larger markets and alternative funding sources, but, of course, I remain open to the idea of a stock exchange if demand for such a service were to increase. Currently, if there are barriers to accessing existing stock markets for Welsh firms, then, perhaps, an alternative solution could be to work on reducing such barriers, rather than attempting to set up a competitor.

But if there is a case for a stock market in Wales, I believe that the private sector should lead. It’s not clear what role the public sector could or even should play in private equity markets, but I can assure Members that, as a pro-business Government, our priority remains to deliver on a range of actions to help new and existing companies to develop, grow and prosper.

Thank you very much. That brings today’s proceedings to a close. Thank you.