Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru

Good afternoon. We will begin this afternoon with questions to the Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Social Justice and Equality, Sioned Williams. Question 1, Catherine Cullen.

I will work closely with the Cabinet Minister for Education and the Welsh Language to ensure that all the evidence is considered in any policy decisions on supporting transgender, non-binary and gender-questioning learners.

I'm sure you agree that we all need to treat children with compassion. We sit here today with one non-negotiable duty: the absolute safety of Welsh children in schools. When the Cass review explicitly warned that social transition—that is, changing a child's name, pronouns or uniform at school—is not a neutral act and carries severe psychological risks, Plaid Cymru voted against these recommendations. Their manifesto demands a demedicalised self-declaration system that actively pushes gender identity theories through the school system. In some GCSE English classes in Wales, some academic books, oral examination subjects and prose and poems have been removed and filled with those that deal with modern social constructs, including those with gender identity themes. In your own manifesto, you're keen to introduce a literacy and numeracy strategy. With our Programme for International Student Assessment rankings declining, and with only 17.8 per cent of Blaenau Gwent residents holding a level 4 qualification or above, my question is: why are we removing literacy and replacing it with gender theories and relationships and sexuality education material?

Just to be clear, we are not going to replace our plan on literacy and numeracy. That is something that we as a Government have prioritised. But I and the Minister for education and the Welsh language want every child and young person in our schools to believe in their ability to fulfil their potential, and I acknowledge that creating a supportive environment is an important way to help them to succeed. Education policy leads in the Welsh Government have developed non-statutory draft guidance for schools on how, for example, to support transgender, non-binary and gender-questioning learners, as a result of extensive consultation with stakeholders, and the Cabinet Minister for Education and the Welsh Language is aware of the need for leadership and sensitivity in proceeding with this work. Bearing in mind the public discourse with regard to the lives of trans young people, we as a Government have to consider carefully the steps that we take. Dr Cass drew attention in her report to the fact that the discourse and the toxic nature of the discussion on this matter doesn't promote the interests of children and young people, and it's vital, therefore, that the well-being of every learner is safeguarded whilst they're at school, and that every learner feels that they are welcome, that they're ready and are supported to learn.

The Welsh Government are taking forward implementation of the law in Wales in a way that is clear, consistent and workable, while ensuring that all people are treated with dignity and respect.

I have tabled the question today out of provenance from a direct ask from concerned citizens and many women's advocacy groups across Wales who are tired of waiting for the protections our laws set out.

I didn't hear a question there, so I'll leave it there.

We will now move on. Next, spokespeople questions—. Oh, no, I apologise—Natasha Asghar.

Thank you so much, Presiding Officer. Minister, the last Labour Government failed women and girls across Wales by dragging its heels when it came to implementing the Supreme Court's ruling, and, based on the rhetoric from Plaid, I fear nothing is going to change here in Wales. Recently, I received an e-mail from a Welsh Government employee who told me that they're working under a policy that allows men who identify as women to use women's single-sex spaces from the first day of self-identification, and that staff are explicitly told that these individuals must not be asked to use alternative facilities. The member of staff told me, and I quote:

'The Supreme Court has made the legal position unambiguous for the purposes of the Equality Act. "Sex" means biological sex. A gender recognition certificate does not change a person's sex under the Act'.

And I'm still quoting here:

'A Government cannot pick and choose which laws it follows, yet that is exactly what seems to be happening within the Welsh Government itself'.

All public bodies in Wales should indeed respect the Supreme Court's very clear ruling, and it is imperative that both the UK and Welsh Governments take the lead on this by issuing updated guidance. So, Cabinet Minister, when is this Government going to put the safety of women and girls first and take action, and can you please explain, for the benefit of this entire institution, why your four MPs in Westminster voted against supporting women-only services recently as well? Thank you.

Thank you very much for that question. As I set out very clearly yesterday, we respect the Supreme Court ruling and are progressing with the work—and have been progressing with the work since that ruling was made—that needs to be done to ensure that policy and devolved practice continue to comply with the law as outlined by the Supreme Court. This work has to be done carefully and consistently, and across a range of devolved areas. In terms of the Government itself, that is a matter for the Permanent Secretary, and I know that this work has been progressing since the Supreme Court ruling. 

Some changes can be made quickly. We will then need to consider others further in order to ensure that they are legal, proportionate and practical. And any changes to current practice will need to comply with the law, and will need to be implemented in a proportionate and practical way.

The Equality Act 2010 still protects those who have protected characteristics of gender reassignment from any discrimination or harassment against them, and we must bear that in mind. This is a community that feels under siege at the moment, and we must be sensitive to that. So, we need to look at the practical steps that we can take whilst complying with the Supreme Court ruling, and then, in seeing the code of practice that will come forward, if it is passed in Westminster, we will need to consider how we do that. 

And in terms of the issue of Members of Parliament, there are over 100 Members of Parliament from many parties who have expressed that they don't feel that the code that has been tabled, and the way it's currently drafted, does that carefully enough, in line with the points that I've already outlined here. And therefore, of course, they have the right to question that in accordance with the democratic system.

I now call the party spokespeople to question the Cabinet Minister. First of all, the Reform UK spokesperson, Cristiana Emsley. 

Diolch, Lywydd. Saunders Lewis once said, 'A nation without a language is a nation without a heart'. Yesterday, the Deputy First Minister quoted Dr Martin Luther King Jr. and spoke about the kind of nation we want to build together. While the 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan' may not itself use these phrases, bodies funded to advance its objectives have supported projects such as decolonising the Welsh cake and commissioned reports recommending controversial changes to how people use and experience the Welsh countryside. Many people feel that this agenda risks treating expressions of Welsh culture and identity as problems to be reinterpreted rather than traditions to be celebrated. If the Government's mission is to strengthen Welsh identity, at what point does re-examining our traditions become eroding the cultural confidence of the very nation it was elected to serve?

Thank you very much for the question. This Government is clear that Wales is a nation for everyone who makes their home here. Whatever their language, whatever their racial origin, it's a place where everyone can call home, and we as a Government will always support every one of our citizens. 

Of course, the Welsh identity is something that must be treasured and safeguarded, but it isn't a closed entity; it's open to all. Anyone can learn Welsh for example, and this Government wants to ensure that everyone in Wales has the opportunity to do just that. Looking back at our history, and understanding the complexity of our history, is vital if we want to understand who we are, where we're going and the impact of that history on every one of our citizens. So, I don't accept what the Member has put forward, in terms of the fact that we, in ensuring that we safeguard everyone from racism, for example, through the plan that we have, are endangering that in any way.

Yesterday, the Deputy Minister said that the Welsh Government is committed to upholding the principles of the armed forces covenant and ensuring fair access to healthcare, housing, employment, education, skills and training for service personnel, veterans and their families. Can the Minister, therefore, identify the tangible outcomes that this commitment has delivered in Wales? Specifically, what measurable improvements can she point to in areas such as housing, healthcare access, employment or homelessness that demonstrate that Welsh veterans are materially better off as a direct result of the armed forces covenant, rather than simply being covered by statements of principles and guidance?

Diolch. As I said in my statement yesterday, and as we have set out in our manifesto, we are committed to upholding the principles of the armed forces covenant to ensure fair access to healthcare, housing, employment, education, skills and training for veterans and their families. The Prif Weinidog showed this clearly in one of the first visits that he has undertaken as Prif Weinidog. He visited Valley Veterans in Ton Pentre last week, where he made clear our commitment to the covenant and heard from veterans there.

I firmly believe that the covenant is a social justice and equalities issue. It is about reducing disadvantage that can occur as a result of service and affording special consideration to those who have given the most, such as those who have been injured or bereaved through service. Whilst, for many, service is a positive experience, many will also need our support as a result of that service, including, of course, from devolved services. So, I'm looking forward to working with colleagues across Government to carry through our manifesto commitment in this area. I expect to provide the Senedd with a legislative consent memorandum in respect of the Armed Forces Bill, including its plans for broadening the armed forces covenant, shortly. So, I'm looking forward to working with UK Ministers to make sure that any plans related to the armed forces community here in Wales take full account of devolution.

On 31 March this year, the then Labour Government announced a £200 emergency support payment for low-income households using heating oil and liquefied petroleum gas, promising help for people exactly like the constituents who have recently contacted me. Yet, more than two months later, my constituents in Wrexham have been told by the local authority that it was still awaiting guidance from the Government before payments could be made. Minister, Governments do change, yet here we are in June and vulnerable people are still waiting, expecting promises made in their name to be honoured. Emergency support that arrives after the emergency isn't emergency support at all. Can the Minister tell us how many eligible households across Wales are still waiting for this payment today? When will every outstanding payment finally be made? What action is this Government taking to ensure that no pensioner or low-income family is ever again left waiting months for help that was promised in a crisis, because, Minister, what is the point of announcing emergency help if it reaches people only after they spend the winter sitting in 9 degree C homes wrapped in blankets?

The Member will know, of course, that this was an announcement made by the previous Government. As far as I understand, and I have asked about this—. One of the first things that I asked about, truth be told, when I came into this position, was for an assurance that the funding had gone to the local authorities. I understand that that is the case and that they have received the guidance that they need to distribute that funding. But I'm happy to write to the Member to give her further assurance and to give her the figures that she's asked for.

Welsh Labour spokesperson, Shav Taj.

First of all, can I begin by congratulating the Cabinet Minister on her role? I welcome the ambition that she shared yesterday. A lot of what you have already said in the Senedd very much chimes with me personally, but also with us as a Labour group. You know that I have given evidence to various different committees in the Senedd, including the Equality and Social Justice Committee. We were very clear then about the scale of the challenge and the urgency that was ultimately going to be required. Of course, lots of this builds on the work of Jane Hutt, the infamous Jane Hutt, of course, the previous Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice, who very much led on tackling child poverty and widening equality objectives across Government. As I say, there's common ground there. But we've had strategies before and we've had the commitments, and what people have always said is that there's a sense of urgency. Again yesterday you spoke about targets, but how will the public actually see that progress being made? What data will be published? How often will it be published? And how will we know if inequality is truly falling?

Thank you very much, and thank you for your words. I know that we share many core values in the area of social justice. I look forward to working with you, as we worked together in scrutinising the previous Government. Thank you very much for that offer and for your words.

This is one of the main things I think that we really need to tackle. The previous Government did spend an awful lot of money, quite rightly so, on trying to support our most vulnerable citizens, including, of course, children in poverty, but we haven't seen the dial shift. Much of the scrutiny that we did in the last Senedd, through committee work and in other ways, has shown this quite clearly, I think. That's why I've made it a priority of mine to be able to look again specifically at the child poverty strategy, but all across the measures that we're taking to alleviate suffering, to alleviate inequality, and to be providing different types of support.

We have made it clear as a Government that we will be having a digital dashboard. My colleague the Cabinet Minister for Government Effectiveness and the Constitution is currently working on that, and I have no doubt that he will have a lot of interest in the targets and milestones that I will be setting, specifically in the child poverty strategy, but across everything that I have promised to deliver in this space.

I guess the question now is not what you intend to do, it's what you'll actually deliver. What changes are people going to see and feel in their everyday lives? This is what people ask us all the time, whether it's at the bus stop, whether it's on the doorstep. I hear it in places where people are not talking about policy making or anything—they're talking the language of survival, ultimately. They say that the Senedd has got bigger, 'There is all of you sat around there making all these decisions, but how is my life actually going to change, and if my bills are coming down, and if I'm not having to worry about the bailiff, I can actually afford to buy my kids school shoes or that extra pair of trainers or whatever.' Will the Cabinet Minister be able to point to one concrete change that she announced yesterday that will reduce the cost of living for families or improve pay for workers in the next 12 months?

I completely agree with the way that you've summed up there the struggle that people are feeling. We've all been out knocking doors for months and we know that it's tough out there. I think people are quite right to ask why politics has failed them. I think a lot of that is to do with the austerity politics that we saw from the UK Tory Government over those many years, and we haven't seen the change that we needed thus far under the UK Labour Government. As I say, in Wales, we did do things differently, and we were ready to work with the previous Welsh Labour Government on things like free school meals, where we knew that was going to make a real difference—people were going to really feel that in their everyday lives.

As regards the things that I want to do, I do want to deliver decisive change in the real lives of people, the real priorities of people in Wales. That's why I've had such a clear focus on the things that I'm hoping to achieve and that I've already started work on in these first few weeks that we've been in power—really targeting efforts towards the key policies that will have the biggest impact on people in Wales and their daily lives. Of course, that, for instance, is about tackling child poverty and helping families with the cost of living through rolling out the most generous childcare offer anywhere in the UK, developing that Cynnal payment of £10. We know that direct cash payments, as we've seen in Scotland, are a really effective way of making a difference in people's lives.

The other thing that I would like to do is that shift to the preventative. We don't want people to be suffering the consequences of poverty. That involves streamlining the Welsh benefits system, the work that was begun under the previous Welsh Labour Government. But now, under our Government, we want to make it even more efficient. Because too often, people are not claiming what they're entitled to. I want to really put an emphasis on that. I've started work on reviewing and streamlining that system, so people can get that help, the help that they are entitled to, as quickly and as easily as they're able.

Welsh Conservative spokesperson, Peter Fox.

Diolch, Lywydd. Cabinet Minister, this is going to be a similar set of questions in many ways, but it will be, because it's such an important issue to so many of our community. Your role directly influences people in Wales, and it decides if they will be better off, not just whether policies sound good on paper. Your manifesto, as you've talked about again, includes commitments like that expanding childcare, which I know will be discussed later on, and the Welsh child payment. But many of these are framed as pilots, phased roll-outs, or long-term structural reforms. For families, as we've just heard, struggling right now with food, rent and energy bills, those kinds of timelines can feel like delay rather than delivery. So, can you be very clear? I know you've laid out some of your thinking just then, but what specific, immediate financial difference will a low-income family see within your first year—not in theory, but in their bank account or weekly costs? And if that's too much of a tall order, what would you expect them to see after two years of this Government?

Thank you very much for the question. I won't rehearse what I said in response to Shavanah Taj, but clearly those things will make a difference. We know that childcare costs are the highest in the UK in Wales, and therefore, ensuring that you can go out to work, especially for women, if you choose to do that, and that you can afford to do that, that it makes sense financially for you to do that, that you can increase your income and that you can progress in your career, is something that people will feel immediately.

It has to be phased—we have been clear on that—but we will now be prioritising the roll-out for all two-year-olds within this first year in power. So, that will be felt immediately by people. Clearly, those families who will be part of the pilot will feel that immediately, hopefully within a year of having been in power. Likewise, you mentioned that people don't want pilots. I would like to not run a pilot here. But we don't have the power at the moment, because we don't have the devolved powers over welfare. That's the most effective way of ensuring that people are protected if their income doesn't meet their needs.

We will be, for example, working on fair rents. That will make a huge difference to people. Clearly, as you mentioned at the beginning of your question, my portfolio is something that people will feel, because they feel that inequality—inequalities of all kinds, and particularly economic inequality. We have poverty levels that are far too high in Wales, and I'll be working across the Cabinet to ensure that we can work towards reducing those levels of inequality.

Thank you, Cabinet Minister. That sounds reassuring. But words are fine; let's see what the action is. Because a recurring issue in Wales—and we've all seen it for many, many years—is that we don't see improvement in poverty or living standards. In fact, it has been the same for 20 years, as I see it, with several hundred thousand children living in poverty.

Your manifesto talks about new strategies, new ways of working, and that's really great—we look forward to that—but can you be clear on what we can expect in regard to real measurable targets so we can monitor progress? Because what I've seen in this place ever since I've been here is you cannot track performance. There's no performance management, really, for us to hold people to account. Will we see those targets?

We need to ensure that your policies don't become just another set of commitments that don't deliver, and then the responsibility gets deflected back to the last Government or the Government before. Minister, if child poverty is still at an unacceptable level two or three years into your Government, who should people actually hold to account? You, your Government, or will it be somebody else?

Thank you for that. It is difficult to listen to someone from the Conservative Party talking about child poverty. You have to acknowledge and you have to take ownership as a party of the economic damage and the damage you did to families across Wales for over a decade—for longer than that. I am child of the 1980s, I am the child of the coalfields, and I remember what happened under Margaret Thatcher in my community. It's one of the reasons why I came into politics, if truth be told. But I will accept the point and I will accept the challenge, because that's the work I want to do. I want to deal with those inequalities and those unacceptable levels of poverty that you referred to.

As I mentioned, we in this Government don't fear scrutiny—in fact, we welcome scrutiny. We want to ensure, with the funding available and the powers available to us, that we make every pound count. For too long, there have been a number of programmes and we haven't seen their impact. I agree with you on that. That's why I, for example, want to review the strategies that we have, to set those targets. This Government will aim towards doing that, and ensure that we attain those targets, and, of course, we will work in partnership to do that.

Next week, in fact, I will be discussing this very issue with the child poverty expert reference group, which is always willing to put ideas forward and to be a critical friend of Government. So, through mechanisms such as that, by having those clear and measurable targets, and benchmarking and having milestones along the way, I do hope that this Parliament and the people of Wales will be able to measure and see our progress. And this Government will be accountable for that.

Thank you for the question. In Fflint Wrecsam, as across the whole of Wales, I am committed to social justice and equality for everyone from all backgrounds. Respect, solidarity and fair play will be the principles guiding my work to tackle inequality and build fairer, safer and united communities.

Thank you for your response, Cabinet Minister. You'll know the important role that faith groups have in education here in Wales, in particular both the Catholic Church and the Church in Wales, in having schools all across Wales. In my part of the world in Fflint Wrecsam, the Catholic Church has a number of schools in some of our poorest areas, in some of our most needy areas, and do a fantastic job in supporting our communities.

You may be aware that Flintshire County Council are pursuing an agenda of closing a number of these Catholic schools in my area, specifically in Saltney, where St Anthony's Catholic Primary School is under threat of closure. The local authority there, Flintshire, are telling parents and children that they should either go to England for their Catholic education, or travel 14 miles to Flint for their Catholic education.

First of all, do you agree with Flintshire council that it's appropriate to tell parents and their children to go outside of Wales for their Catholic education, or do you think that education should be available for them within Wales? Secondly, would you be willing to meet with me to discuss this issue further to see what solutions may be available?

Thank you very much for the question. 

Interfaith working is very important, and supporting faith communities, of course, is a very important aspect of my work. I would certainly be amenable to meet with you to hear about this particular issue. Of course, it is for local authorities to decide their own policies on these, and I would urge you to take this up as well with the Cabinet Minister for Education and the Welsh Language in this case. But certainly, as regards the rights of people in faith communities, I'd be very willing to meet with you.

Deputy First Minister, according to the latest budget lines of the Welsh Government's budget, £11.5 million is spent on so-called equality, inclusion and human rights. Could you explain to the people of Wales how this substantial sum of money is delivering value for the people of Wales?

Thank you. In terms of human rights, clearly that is at the heart, as I set out in my statement yesterday, of everything that we do. Inequality causes not only harm to individuals and specific groups of people, but it can also cause additional costs to the public purse. So, we have ensured that we want to consider how exactly human rights strengthen how people can be supported in every aspect of their lives. I think that that helps all kinds of decisions in terms of public services with regard to how we support people when they turn to specific services. So, I think that this is an important and crucial investment, and it's something that we as a Welsh Government believe is completely vital to our work in terms of creating a fairer Wales and a Wales that works for every one of its citizens.

Diolch yn fawr. We are committed to tackling poverty, including food poverty, and improving access to affordable, healthy and nutritious food for people in Wales. Our 100-day plan sets out how we will drive transformational change for people across Wales, working to develop a comprehensive national food strategy.

Diolch. For many families, food poverty is not just about having enough to eat, it's about access to healthy and nutritious food. As the cost-of-living crisis continues, cheaper options are often highly processed, leaving most of our deprived communities disproportionately affected by obesity, type 2 diabetes and other preventable conditions. This drives pressure on our NHS, harms educational outcomes, reduces productivity, and carries out wider economic costs. Tackling food poverty is an investment in preventative health, economic growth and equality. With that in mind, will the Cabinet Minister outline the cross-Government action to make healthy food affordable, and how success in reducing these inequalities will be measured? 

Thank you very much. It's a very important question.

Tackling food poverty and improving access to affordable, healthy and nutritious food is a priority for this Welsh Government. I think it requires co-ordinated action across a range of portfolios, including health, including education, including rural affairs also, and social justice, of course. And so we are going to take forward a whole-system approach to address both the immediate impacts of food insecurity and its underlying causes. And, of course, that includes action to maximise household incomes, to reduce costs, alongside measures, then, to improve the availability and affordability of healthy foods. So, early work is already under way to set out how the national food strategy will be taken forward, and the Cabinet Minister for Rural Resilience and Sustainability has held conversations already with several key stakeholders on this, including the future generations commissioner. We're also continuing to invest, of course, in programmes that improve access to healthy food and support preventative health, including free school meals and wider initiatives that build food skills and literacy, while ensuring that food provision supports our ambitions for healthier diets. And I think that the Deputy Minister for Public and Preventative Health has a key role in this as well, so I’ll be working closely with her.

I thank the Member for the question. Food poverty is a serious issue, but it cannot be an excuse to lower food standards or short-change Welsh farmers. Earlier this year, it emerged that Welsh councils were serving schoolchildren chicken imported from Thailand and China—99 nine per cent of supply in Merthyr Tydfil and 87 per cent in Caerphilly. That is difficult to justify when Welsh farmers already meet some of the highest animal welfare and food production standards in the world, yet are expected to compete on an uneven playing field. Bridgend has shown that there is no justification for this failure, sourcing 100 per cent UK chicken for its schools within the very same funding envelope and procurement framework. So, will the Cabinet Secretary accept that public money should never be used to buy food produced to standards that would not be permitted in Wales, and will the Welsh Government now reform procurement rules and require full transparency on food provenance, so parents know exactly where the food served in Welsh schools comes from? Thank you.

Diolch. There is already, of course, a framework and regulations in place, but making sure that we improve access—the procurement power of our public services and of Welsh Government is really key in doing this. So, as I said, we are taking forward this whole-system approach to address not just the impacts of food insecurity, but also the quality and the healthiness of that food. And so we will, as I said, as part of the food strategy, be looking at every aspect of this across our public services.

Welcome to your role, Minister. On the theme of food, may I draw your attention to the work of Food Cardiff, Bwyd Caerdydd, which has won the Sustainable Food Places gold prize recently—the fourth local authority in the UK to have won this award? So, it would be great to have a boost from the Welsh Government to expand that work across Wales.

My question is on food in schools. Of course, here in Wales, for 22 years now, we've had free breakfasts in our schools, and the last Welsh Labour Government introduced universal free school meals at primary school age. For too many of our pupils, this is the only proper meal of the day that they have every day—hugely important—and yet we know that food costs have risen dramatically in recent years. So, my question is: when councils tell Welsh Government what the cost of supplying these meals are, will you accept and respect their advice and fund it, or else risk affecting the quality and provenance of the food served to our young people? Diolch yn fawr.

Thank you for that question. I agree entirely with your analysis in terms of the importance of free school meals. This, of course, is why we pushed, when we were in a co-operation agreement with the previous Government, that this was something that we would want to see, and it has paid off, I think, as I said yesterday. Certainly now, as we see food costs increasing, it is something that really does help children and families, and ensures that some children, as you mentioned, do get that nutritious, hot meal that they so desperately need, not only so that they can learn at school, but also, of course, for the benefit of their health. And in that regard, the responsibility for free school meals sits within the portfolio of the Cabinet Minister for Education and the Welsh Language, but I am certainly happy to ensure that we do discuss the issue that you've raised.

Good afternoon, Minister. We've heard about the free school meals provided, which was a Plaid Cymru initiative with the Labour Government, but I want to go to even younger children, the early years and the role of nutrition in the first 1,000 days. We know how important nutritious food is in brain development in babies, both in pregnancy and in those first 1,000 days. Key nutrients such as vitamin D are absolutely essential, and if you are poor and you are not able to afford a full range of nutritious food, then that hampers that child's development from the very, very early point. It also affects, as we know, mental health and adverse childhood experiences. I just wonder if we could just hear a little bit more about your role, both in terms of early years, but also in terms of social justice, in terms of making sure we get that food to those babies in the first 1,000 days. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Thank you for the question. 

A really important question and something on which I wholeheartedly agree with the Member, as regards the importance of nutrition in those early years. You will know, of course, that we, as a Welsh Government, fund the Healthy Start scheme, providing nutritional support to low-income pregnant women and families with young children under four years, and the core aim of that is to improve dietary intake, obviously, during pregnancy. Because pregnancy is such a crucial part—it's not always fully recognised, is it, but many of those key health outcomes can start in pregnancy for babies and children, so it's a critical period for that lifelong health, and, of course, there is that support, through that scheme, to buy fruit and vegetables, milk, pulses, infant formula and free vitamins. And also, of course, there is the nursery milk scheme in Wales, so all children under five years old in approved childcare settings of two hours or more receive a free third of a pint of milk.

But I absolutely agree that this is a key issue and it's something that I will be looking at, together with my colleague the Minister for health and social care and my colleague the Deputy Minister for Public and Preventative Health, as regards looking at the child poverty strategy and the work around that as regards outcomes. This will be a crucial part of that, I think.

Question 5, Sara Crowley.

Thank you, Llywydd, and congratulations, Deputy First Minister.

Our first 100 days plan sets out action to tackle child poverty across Wales, including in Pontypridd Cynon Merthyr, through the development of the Cynnal child payment, the expansion of a transformational new universal childcare offer and a new child poverty plan with clear, measurable targets to improve outcomes for children and families.

For too long, children in Wales have been forced to grow up in poverty, impacting everything from their education and health to their future prospects and even life expectancy. It disproportionately affects children in my constituency, with over 80 per cent of children in one area of Penrhiwceiber in the Cynon valley living in income deprivation compared to the Welsh national average of 38 per cent. I therefore welcome the fact that the Plaid Cymru Government is following the example of Scotland—the only country in the UK where child poverty rates are expected to decrease in future years unless anything drastic changes—by proposing the introduction of the Cynnal payment modelled on the Scottish child payment. Could the Cabinet Secretary confirm whether preparatory work for this scheme has already begun and provide an update on when the pilot will commence, please? Diolch.

Thank you very much for the question.

We want to give every child the best start in life and we refuse to accept that one in three of our children should be condemned to living in poverty and all that that means for them throughout their lives. We are already making progress on preparing for the implementation of the Cynnal pilot, the Welsh child payment. We've established an expert group to help us design, deliver and plan the monitoring and evaluation of the scheme so that it launches on a sound evidence-based founding, and as soon as that preparation is complete, we'll be rolling it out. As I announced yesterday in my statement, I've asked Dr Steffan Evans from the Bevan Foundation to join me in co-chairing that group. I've asked to co-chair it, because I want to make sure that we do this work at pace and I want to make sure that we are able to evidence properly what this will mean for Welsh families. The group brings together a broad range of perspectives and expertise, independent academics and researchers, front-line professionals, individuals with lived experience and, of course, Welsh Government officials. So, we will ensure that that pilot is informed by evidence and grounded in the realities of people's lives. And so that has started now, in the first 100 days, and as I said, we'll be looking to roll that out as soon as we can afterwards.

Cabinet Minister, around 32 per cent of children in Merthyr Tydfil are growing up in poverty. That's one of the highest rates in Wales, and this is after 27 years of a Labour Government propped up by Plaid. Meanwhile, life expectancy in our Valleys and communities remains far below the Welsh average. Minister, health is indeed wealth. If parents are stuck on waiting lists, living with chronic illness or struggling with poor mental health, families are far more likely to remain trapped in poverty. How are you working across portfolios as part of a wider Government strategy to tackle child poverty, especially in areas like Pontypridd and Merthyr? Diolch.

Thank you for the question. I think I've already mentioned, in answering some previous questions, how that—. I've talked about many of the Ministers within Government that I would wish to work on a cross-governmental basis with. We are committed, as a Government, to boosting household income, to lifting families out of poverty, and I've mentioned some of the measures that I will put in place in order to do that. That's why we need a new plan that is specifically targeted to address child poverty, and children's health will be a major part of that. I remember, when the draft child poverty strategy was issued by the last Government, there was no mention of health, and for me and those of us who were scrutinising that at the time—. It then was included in the final draft because of that scrutiny, but it is a crucially important element, as I've mentioned. If we don't invest in doing this work—and it is complex and expensive work—the price that we will pay as communities, and that the community that you represent will pay, is exceptionally high, not only in terms of what that means in terms of public expenditure but also for people, and particularly children, within those communities.

Four and a half million free school meals for primary pupils served in Rhondda Cynon Taf and Merthyr Tydfil, 55,000 school holiday enrichment programme places, the child poverty innovation and supporting communities grant, the pupil development grant, the discretionary assistance fund and universal access to Flying Start: since 2022, over £7 billion has been spent on these and other schemes by the Welsh Labour Government, making a real difference to tackling child poverty and improving the lives of children and families across Pontypridd Cynon Merthyr. Cabinet Minister, I know so many families and children who've benefited personally from these. So, Deputy First Minister, will you commit to maintain these policies and, importantly, their funding?

Thank you very much for the question. Clearly, there'll be some things that we will, certainly, for example, the free school meals, which were a policy that we brought to the table, and we've mentioned several times this afternoon how important that is. I know too the difference that that can make, and families have told me, as we knocked on doors and as we engaged with our constituents, how important that is to them.

The one thing that I will say is that the previous Government spent, and I acknowledge that, a great deal of money, and supported many programmes to try to alleviate child poverty. What we haven't seen is a sufficiently effective decrease in terms of those poverty levels as a result, and this Government is committed to being one that operates on the basis of outcomes: if something isn't having the impact that we want to see, we need to look again at the types of programmes that we are targeting, where we target them, how they're working. Is there duplication? Are there funds that are too small perhaps to have an impact? Do we need to increase expenditure in some areas? We will, of course, be expanding our free school meals programme to reach those pupils in secondary school that are sufficiently poor to be on universal credit but aren't able to claim free school meals. I know that that will make a huge difference to those families.

Cabinet Minister, you've answered at great length, which is admirable in many ways. 

But we do have to start making progress now, so if you could be more brief. Let's try and get another two questions in quickly. Question 6 [OQ64121] has been transferred for written answer by the Deputy Minister for Social Care, Mental Health and Women's Health. So, we'll move to question 7—Paul Davies.

Thank you very much for the question. It's the UK Government that is responsible for matters related to post offices. I consider the services offered by our local post offices, such as access to cash and basic banking, essential to the health of our communities, and I will ensure that this is stressed in any future meetings with the Post Office.

As you've said, Deputy First Minister, local post offices are small businesses with a big community impact, and I was pleased recently to visit Tenby post office in my constituency, where Vince and Fiona Malone spoke candidly about the challenges facing local post offices and, indeed, independent retailers. Now, as I'm sure you'll agree, post offices are often far more than just places to access mail services. They are vital community hubs that support residents and provide a range of essential services. Given this significant community impact, it's crucial that the Welsh Government does all it can to support post offices across Wales and safeguard their long term sustainability. So, can you tell us what measures the Welsh Government is taking to support post offices across Wales, so that they can continue to make a big impact in our local communities?

Thank you very much for the question. I agree entirely with the Member with regard to the importance of post offices, as I mentioned in my initial response. Of course, as I mentioned, matters relating to post offices aren't devolved to Welsh Ministers, and the commitment of the UK Government to post offices includes plans to maintain the size of the network as it is. That means that we need to look for new businesses to maintain the provision when local post offices close. It also includes a commitment to locate post offices in town centres where that's possible, and I think that's crucial, especially as we see a number of our high-street banks moving away from our high streets.

Our manifesto includes a number of specific commitments related to regenerating town centres. Perhaps this matter will connect to the wider work of the town-centre taskforce that will be established as part of our 100 days plan. And we will be outlining more details in terms of the proposals for regeneration in future that emanate from that work. So, that's something that we can do here within our powers.

And finally, question 8—Leticia Gonzalez.

Diolch yn fawr. Childcare costs are too high in Wales, and we want to put more money back into families' pockets, and our actions in these first 100 days now are focused on putting the right foundations in place, with the governance, the infrastructure and the workforce that we need to expand childcare in the right way and maintain high-quality provision.

Thank you. Poverty in Wales has remained largely unchanged for a decade, emphasising the need to improve children's life chances through stronger early years support. Accessible, high-quality childcare can boost development while also enabling parents on low incomes to work. We know that poverty is highest among minority ethnic groups, disabled people, carers, renters and those facing labour-market barriers, particularly migrant families in insecure, low-paid work. I therefore welcome a Plaid Cymru Government focused on supporting families into work and helping children to thrive. Could the Cabinet Minister provide an update on the timeline for establishing the taskforce of the scheme's first phase?

Yesterday, I announced the establishment and membership of our new childcare expert steering group, which is one of the commitments that we said we'd do in our first 100 days, and, as I said, I'll be co-chairing the first meeting of that expert steering group later this month.

The group will be absolutely key in delivering the transformational change this Government has promised, and the group's central mission will be to establish that phased delivery of our childcare offer, with workforce planning, with improving access and streamlining application as its clear priorities. Of course, that will operate alongside the Welsh Government's childcare taskforce. They are leading delivery through a series of dedicated work streams—for example, workforce delivery models, phasing and inclusion, and the taskforce will focus on implementation, supported, then, by the external steering group's work.

I thank the Cabinet Minister.

Item 2, questions now to the Cabinet Minister for Rural Resilience and Sustainability. Question 1—Ken Skates. 

We will build on the high standards that we already have here in Wales, and, in our manifesto, we said that we would develop a science-led animal health and welfare plan. I look forward to working with stakeholders, operational partners, industry and the third sector to develop our new approach here in Wales.

Minister, do you support the ban on trail hunting? 

Well, you will know, of course, that that is the subject of a UK Government consultation at the minute. The Hunting Act 2004 is not within our legislative competence. I think the least we can do is await the outcome of the public consultation, which concludes in a few weeks, before we come to any conclusions.

Cabinet Minister, during the previous Senedd, we brought forward the greyhound racing ban here in the Senedd and I know that, at the time, you had concerns about that piece of legislation, about it being rushed and perhaps not looking at the fullness of the legislation. I'm just wondering: now, in your new role, will you do some post-legislative scrutiny on that piece of work to make sure that it's in the best place possible and that there are no unintended consequences of this ban going forward on the welfare of greyhounds in Wales?

Thank you for your question. Post-legislative scrutiny usually happens after legislation has been introduced, and I will make it clear to the Chamber today that, despite the view I had on that particular legislation, I will respect the democratic decision of the previous Senedd and implement the legislation as intended.

Welcome to your role and good afternoon, Minister. Great minds think alike. I refer Members to my register of interests. I am a supporter of Greyhound Rescue Wales and an owner, a proud owner, of a rescue greyhound, and I know some other Members of the Senedd are.

You’ve referred to the legislation that was introduced, despite, I know, some reservations that you had, and a very, very few others had, around the introduction of the greyhound racing ban. It was the culmination of years of determined campaigning by animal welfare organisations, rescue charities and thousands of people across Wales who have consistently spoken up for dogs who have no voice of their own. I was proud that, collectively, as a Senedd, we judged that the injuries, fatalities and entirely avoidable suffering associated with greyhound racing were no longer justified in a modern Wales. Therefore, could I ask you, please, Cabinet Minister, to put on record today that you confirm that your Government will honour both the letter and the spirit of the legislation and ensure that it is implemented fully, properly resourced and without avoidable delay? Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Yes.

Thank you very much. Question 2—Art Wright. 

Firstly, Minister, congratulations on your new role. 

The Welsh Government is committed to responding to the needs of rural communities throughout Wales. Within the first 100 days, we will bring forward proposals for a statutory rural-proofing duty to ensure that Welsh Government programmes and funding models are fully responsive to the needs of rural communities, people and businesses.

Thank you for that answer, Minister. I'm very new into the area myself, so I do need to go to see all of my farmers, and I will be doing that over the next few weeks. Will the Minister agree to a meeting in the next few months where I can bring forth their concerns directly?

I don't want to say 'no', but I have to say I'm sure you haven't seen my diary for the next few months. But I am absolutely keen to engage with the farming sector and other relevant sectors across all parts of Wales, and, when time allows, I will absolutely be doing that as best I can.

For years, farmers have been telling me that it's becoming more and more difficult to make a living. I am hopeful that that will change, of course, with a new Plaid Cymru Government in place. One thing I would like to raise in relation to those concerns expressed by a business owner in my constituency, who is being prevented in her efforts to diversify on the farm, is that bureaucracy has led to delays and has cost her thousands of pounds. So, I'd like to raise a general point on removing the barriers that prevent farmers from developing alternative sources of income. Farms should have an opportunity to be sustainable. Is that something that is on your radar, Cabinet Secretary, and will you be working with stakeholders in order to resolve some of those problems?

Well, certainly, we will hope to do just that. As you'll know, we have an intention to introduce a review of the red tape facing the agricultural industry, and that is one clear commitment we've got, and I look forward to making a statement on that imminently, hopefully. But there is certainly a wider discussion to be had with the Minister for planning with regard to some of the barriers and some of the elements that cause frustration to people who are trying to achieve the potential that we have in terms of growing the rural economy and creating those more resilient rural communities that we want to see.

I now call on the party spokespeople to question the Cabinet Minister. First of all, Reform UK spokesperson, Laura Anne Jones. 

Diolch, Lywydd. Firstly, Minister, congratulations on your appointment. During the election, your party made a very clear commitment to review the sustainable farming scheme. You've just released a statement—literally, just now—that confirms what we all already knew, and that the take-up for the SFS is only around 50 per cent. Despite the SFS not being centred around food production, as Reform would like to see, you must agree that the scheme is far too complex, the compliance requirements are far too rigid, and the paperwork is, quite frankly, bonkers. For many farmers, the uncertainty and the unknown are simply too big a risk. Some farmers feel punished for staying on the old scheme, when the new one is simply not flexible enough for them to enter.

What we need to see is a more flexible, commonsense approach, perhaps with less restrictive requirements, a broader menu of options to choose from, rather than having to complete the full suite of what are restrictive requirements, with farm assurance, perhaps, being the golden ticket, so that more farmers can participate rather than being shut out by requirements that are, quite frankly, through no fault of their own, unattainable.

The figures you released today prove that there is a huge difference in take-up of different types of farms: 65 per cent, I think, of take-up in Gwynedd, and we're seeing 35 per cent, for example, in Monmouthshire, which says a lot, and I know you'll understand why. Farmers need certainty, they need security going forward. You've made a promise to the Welsh electorate to have this review. We need to know, Minister, when this review will begin, so that we can see that breakdown of why take-up is so poor. And will these changes be in place by 2027, because they absolutely need to be? Diolch.

You said we've only just published those figures. That's true, because, of course, the window for applications has only just closed, and up until midnight last night, we were still receiving applications being submitted. So, I think it's quite a positive that I was keen that we wanted to publish them before Members had the opportunity to question me today.

On the paperwork, I've already mentioned the wider piece of work that we hope to be announcing soon in terms of reducing bureaucracy and red tape. I want farmers to get on with doing what they do best, which is putting food on our plates, and not being sat, where they don't have to be, in front of a computer, or filling in forms, et cetera. But I want that to come from a lived experience perspective as well—I think it's important. It's not for me as a politician to say what I think is best, although maybe we all do that sometimes. We need to be informed by those on the front line who are actually grappling with these issues on a day-to-day and week-to-week basis.

That said, I'm committed to evolving this scheme, the sustainable farming scheme. I'm on the same page as the farming unions here. It's evolution, not revolution. I think it's quite positive that half the applicants have chosen to go into the sustainable farming scheme, a scheme where there is no track record, where there is, frankly, no long-term line of sight of funding security either, which is another thing I hope that our Government will be able to address. So, I'm more of a glass-half-full person than a glass-half-empty person, but I will be listening to views from across the Chamber on what you think needs to be amended and changed. I've already met with the farming unions. Many of their county officials, of course, have been working directly with their members, helping them with filling in their application forms. They will have picked up on some of the barriers and some of the concerns that the sector have, and I've asked them to feed those back to us as a Government, so that we can look at it all in the round, and, ultimately, hopefully, yes, get to a place where the scheme works for everybody.

Thank you. I think your comments are very welcome there. You seem to be totally committed to actually listening to farmers, which, I'm afraid to say, is not what the last Government did. It was far more environmentalists, rather than farmers who are actually going through this scheme and dealing with the scheme on a day-to-day basis. Yes, the unions have been very good at helping with filling in forms, but it's not really a job that they should have to do, so that bureaucracy needs to stop. We need to press upon you that urgency, again, to learn those lessons and have them enable that change before 2027.

During the election, your party also promised a science-led, targeted approach to tackling bovine tuberculosis. This is something our party wholeheartedly supports. However, there are farmers with serious mental health issues living under TB restrictions right now, who need to know when you're going to deliver this. The electorate trusted you to deliver this, and I know you understand the urgency of finally getting to grips with bovine TB. Farmers need answers today, Minister. Can you outline how your approach to tackling TB will differ from previous strategies, and when can farmers see meaningful action, with the emphasis on action, to finally get to grips with bovine TB in Wales? Diolch.

Well, you don't need to tell me how urgent an issue this is. I have friends and family who have been to hell and back because of TB. And I won't rest until we get to a position where we're on a much more positive trajectory in terms of achieving all our ambitions, I'm sure, in relation to the eradication of TB.

It will, of course, be science based and evidence based. I've already met with the TB programme board. I've already met with the technical advisory group as well that was set up under the previous Government to advise on some of these issues. You'll be aware that a position paper was published by the programme board back in March, which made it clear that we really need to be tackling TB on three fronts: of course amongst the human population, yes amongst livestock, but also amongst wildlife. I support that position. It's now a case of seeing what that looks like on the ground, and that work, obviously, is one that I will be guided on, again by the science and the evidence, but one, I hope, we can start to move on at pace. 

Diolch, Minister. I'm really happy to hear your viewpoint on that and concur with what you said. TB has been a dark cloud hanging over our farming communities for far too long, and we need to see something finally happen. We all know what needs to be done, so I look forward to seeing that actually happen. 

My final question is on something that I think we both agree on. And credit to you, in opposition and in your manifesto, you were very supportive of getting rid of the ridiculous farming-by-calendar nitrate vulnerable zone rules. And rightly so, because farmers cannot control the weather like that; it's just common sense. And anyone who's actually spoken to a farmer—something, I'm sure again, that the last Government seemed to be very poor at—understands how impossible that it is. 

The devil is in the detail here, so I would like to hear today exactly what you think should happen to NVZs, outlining a clear timescale as to when we will move to that different approach, assuming it's like the one that was outlined in the Bolton review into water quality. So, will you take this opportunity today to tell us exactly when farming by calendar will end and the new position will begin? Diolch. 

Yes, you're right, I was opposed to the regulations as were outlined previously from day one, actually. I was particularly keen to move to a more targeted and proportionate approach, as you say, not moving towards the farming-by-calendar approach. As an opposition party, Plaid Cymru helped ensure, actually, that that early review by Dr Susannah Bolton happened. Lo and behold, that came back with recommendations saying that we need to move to a more targeted and proportionate approach, and move away from farming by calendar, which absolutely vindicates the view that I've taken from day one.

But you will also know that the Government has therefore set up a group to look at translating those recommendations into action on the ground. I will be meeting with that group soon, and I will be making sure that, obviously, they understand that we need to move as quickly as we can. But that is not to neglect our responsibilities in terms of water quality, and minimising, and eradicating if we can, agricultural pollution. There's a big job of work to be done in that space, but, frankly, farming by calendar doesn't work, because, at the end of the day, the weather doesn't follow the calendar. I've said it before, 'If you want to know if the weather is appropriate for slurry spreading, well don't look at the calendar, look out the window.' And I think there are technological opportunities for us to embrace on that front, and that's absolutely one avenue that I'm keen to pursue.

Welsh Labour spokesperson, Vikki Howells. 

Minister, as you will know, our country's industrial legacy means that there are over 2,500 coal tips in Wales, of which around 14 per cent are in the highest risk category and in need of the most frequent monitoring. Many of these are in close proximity to homes, and one of the priorities of the previous Welsh Labour Government was to make these safe by investing £220 million and developing the first law in the UK to protect communities.

Work has started on turning mining legacy sites such as opencast sites into community assets, and I know you will be familiar with this from your former role as Chair of the Climate Change, Environment and Infrastructure Committee. So, will you commit to continuing this work of turning mining legacy sites into community assets? And equally importantly, if you do take it forward, will you make sure that the voices of people living in the shadow of these sites, and the stakeholders advocating on their behalf, will be heard centrally within this process? 

Yes, I will. 

Diolch, Minister. And I hope for a similar swift answer to my second question. And for that question, I should declare an interest as a member of the Badger Trust. So, I am, of course, turning to the worrying news that part of this Welsh Government's response to bovine TB could be the slaughter of this protected species. Polling shows over 60 per cent of people in Wales oppose a badger cull, so, unlike the First Minister yesterday, I do consider this to be a serious question that we need to engage with. The First Minister did say yesterday that the Government would follow the science. Much of that science shows that culling badgers is not the answer. Take, for example, the study published in Royal Society Open Science last year that said that the review of the 2006 randomised badger culling trial, which forms the justification of culling as a policy, was actually based on error. So, will you, Minister, commit to fully considering all of the science, including the overwhelming amount of data that says that culling badgers is not the answer?

Well, that view, of course, contrasts starkly with the view of the experts that are advising this Government—the experts that were brought together by the previous Government. So, maybe we all need to reflect on that somewhat. I would say, on the question from the Member for Fflint Wrecsam to the First Minister yesterday, I'm not sure that that kind of emotive, melodramatic use of 'murder' and this, that and the other really helps the debate. This is a difficult issue and we need to approach it in an objective manner with a clear head, okay? So, if that's the way you want to play it, that's fine, that's up to you; I won't be playing that game. I will be basing any decisions that this Government makes on the science and on the evidence base and the expertise and the advice provided by your former Government's established technical advisory group, who are currently looking at providing advice within the context of dealing with TB and wildlife. Let's wait and see what they say, and let's go from there.

Thank you. Welsh Conservative spokesperson, Andrew R.T. Davies.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I declare an interest as a director in a farming business. Minister, the point that was made by the Labour spokesperson on the slaughter of wildlife, no-one wants to see wildlife slaughtered. It is bizarre to me, in the time that I've been in this Senedd, that Labour Ministers have sat on their hands and allowed this to drag on and cause so much misery in the farming industry, with suicides in the industry because people feel hopelessly despondent about it, and the proliferation of this disease across the wildlife and farm populations. What I can never understand is why the last Government were not prepared to take out diseased wildlife, but they were prepared to take out diseased farm stock, which is wholly appropriate to eradicate this terrible condition in our countryside. So, can you indicate what science you have seen that will make this a whole-scale approach to eradicating bovine TB here in Wales? It's something we were very close to doing in the 1980s, and something that we desperately need to be on the same page on this time around.

Look, the Member is right: we're not on the right trajectory. The advice from the TB programme board was that, despite having a target of being TB free by 2041, at the current trajectory, it's going to be well into the 2050s until we get anywhere near where we need to be on this. And, you're right, a badger dying of TB will die a horrible, painful, long and agonising death. So, if we're serious about animal welfare, I think there's something we need to reflect on there. Similarly, we are murdering or slaughtering, or whatever you want to call it, 12,000 cattle every year. What about the welfare of those animals as well? I think we need a much more balanced consideration. It's not either/or and it will not be 'Kill all badgers' on my watch. Absolutely not. It's certainly something that has to be guided by the science, and I will reserve judgment on exactly what that looks like until I receive the evidence and the advice of the experts in the field—world-leading experts, by the way, in terms of the membership of this group. When they report, then I will reflect on that, and then we can have a conversation about the detail.

Thank you, Minister. There are three parties in this Chamber who want to see a healthy wildlife population and a healthy farm population. It is vital that you encapsulate that support now and use that support to bring forward this new strategy. Twenty-seven years of doing nothing from the Labour Party has devastated the countryside. Don't be a Minister who, in three and a half, four years' time, looks back and hasn't captured this support in this Chamber. Bring forward that strategy, and could you today give us an indication of when it's going to arrive—is it before the Royal Welsh Show or in the autumn?

I don't think we'll see a strategy within the next few weeks. I think there's a lot of work that needs to be done on that and, clearly, there's a lot of work to help people understand the nature of the problem that we're trying to tackle here. But it's absolutely very high up on my list, and I can give you my word that we will see movement on this front as soon as we can. But, as I say, until I receive that advice from the programme board, and the technical advisory group particularly, then I think it would be a bit premature of me to make any grand announcements at the minute.

We are aware of the ongoing pollution incident affecting the River Kenfig and we share the Member's concern and that of the public regarding the situation there. I have asked Natural Resources Wales, Ofwat and Dŵr Cymru for updates on stopping the discharge, repairing the environmental damage and on ensuring that swift action is taken to improve the river and to prevent, of course, any further incidents.

Thank you for that response. The Minister and local residents will be pleased to hear, after weeks of sewage being pumped into the River Kenfig from the Marlas site, that a temporary overhead pipe was put in place successfully on Monday, and fortunately, that spillage is now at an end. However, the damage caused cannot be overturned now that the discharge has been stopped. There are serious concerns about the impact on water quality in the river, fish populations, invertebrates, plant life and broader biodiversity, as well as the impact on the Margam moors site of special scientific interest. Residents will want confidence that the ecological damage is appropriately assessed and that it isn't presumed that it will recover on its own. What steps will the Minister take to ensure that Dŵr Cymru takes timely action to restore the river and to ensure that such an environmental disaster never happens again?

I share, as I said, and acknowledge the concern felt locally about this. Such a situation is not acceptable. Unfortunately, of course, such things do happen because, of course, of the nature of the infrastructure, the age of the infrastructure and the fact that the infrastructure that we have belongs to another age and not the modern age. But I have asked for a meeting with the chief executive of Dŵr Cymru, and I'll be underlining the need to take robust steps to deal not just with this case, but with the wider performance of the company.

Cabinet Minister, reducing sewage discharges into the River Kenfig depends on robust regulation. Just three days ago, Ofwat confirmed an enforcement package against Welsh Water for the widespread water failures—over £40 million of it targeted at reducing spills at storm overflows. While I realise that allocation of that package is a matter for Ofwat, the Welsh Government sets the strategic priorities for Natural Resources Wales. So, what steps is the Minister taking to ensure that Natural Resources Wales works effectively with Ofwat to press for a portion of this money to address the failing infrastructure affecting the River Kenfig catchment and to satisfy himself that those spills actually fall?

Thank you for the question. One of the biggest tasks, I think, that this Government will face over the coming years is to recast the whole regulatory landscape here in Wales. You will know that changes are afoot, because of changes in England, and, of course, they will then have consequences for us here in Wales, but it does give us an opportunity to develop a Welsh water regulatory system, and hopefully one that has clout and teeth. And I'm committed to clear, enforceable targets to reduce pollution and to developing or leaning more heavily on the polluter-pays principle, by the way. We do need strong action when these offences, very often, happen, and that is something that I'm absolutely keen to work on with other colleagues across the Chamber to achieve over the coming years. 

The Welsh Government is strengthening nature protection through a climate and nature action plan, establishing an independent environmental governance body as well, and, of course, setting ambitious targets for nature recovery. We're restoring ecosystems, supporting sustainable farming, expanding green infrastructure, including tree planting, and improving community access to high-quality green spaces across Wales.

Thank you to the Cabinet Minister for his response. I'm really proud of the fact that we have 12 Green Flag award winners in my constituency of Caerdydd Ffynnon Taf, including my personal favourite, Roath park, for those of you who haven't been there. I spent a lot of my childhood there, growing up, and of course the Llanishen reservoir as well, which is now open to everyone to enjoy after a very hard-fought campaign by local residents and Labour representatives.

At this moment, I'd also like to pay tribute, of course, to the volunteers and the residents who run the community gardens—places like Whitchurch community garden, which I visited with the former Member for Cardiff North, one of my friends and mentors, Julie Morgan, who has always been a champion of green spaces in our great city. These places help people find a moment of peace amid all the hustle and bustle of everyday life, and enjoying that environmental space right on your doorstep is really important. But, more than that, community gardens obviously also help provide an opportunity for people to get involved, meet their neighbours and friends, but also learn new skills. Can the Cabinet Minister assure me that the Government will continue to support and strengthen programmes like Local Places for Nature, which has helped create or enhance more than 200 community nature projects in Cardiff, many of them in children's schools?

Well, I'm determined to build on some of those programmes, absolutely, because access to nature and the creation and protection of our green spaces is an absolute priority for this Government. Our manifesto, for example, advocated social prescribing and nature-based interventions to improve people's health and well-being. It particularly focused on improving access in deprived communities, as well. So, there are health benefits. Obviously there are benefits in terms of nature and biodiversity. We can get people to grow their own food. Back in the day, I was told the best way to get my kids to eat their greens was to make them grow them, and then they'd absolutely be enthralled when they were eating them. So, there's much that we can do, and, of course, that is an example of maybe small investments to unlock some of these green spaces, bringing huge benefits, a multitude of benefits, making the Welsh pound work harder, but also at the same time achieving so many cross-Government priorities.

Minister, in my constituency of Carmarthenshire, Brynteg farm is the only dedicated educational, additional learning needs and animal-assisted therapy provider in Carmarthenshire, serving children and adults both in Carmarthenshire and also the wider area of Swansea. The exceptional unique work and environment they provide is not a conventional agricultural or, indeed, leisure activity. It is a specialist social, educational and therapeutic provision for some of the most vulnerable children and adults in our community. This farm is their sanctuary, their place of safety and a critical part of their future well-being and development. Despite this, a decision was taken some time back to allow a 28-acre solar farm development to be parked up right up against the farm. This will ultimately mean that the noise and disturbance from construction and the subsequent operational noise generated by those inverters will mean that Brynteg farm will ultimately be forced to close down, leading to the loss of the only provider in Carmarthenshire of such an exemplary service. Numerous statements I heard yesterday were made by the Government about engaging with communities and listening, going forward, so what I'd like to know is what assurances will the Minister give us, going forward, that communities will not be ignored and that when they tell us time and again that they don't want these developments, we start to listen. Thank you.

Thanks for that question. I can't comment on any individual cases, of course, because the planning regulations mean that maybe Welsh Ministers will be involved in some of those considerations. What I can say, of course, is that 'Planning Policy Wales' requires developers to enhance biodiversity, to protect green infrastructure and to strengthen ecological networks. So, the planning system should play an important role in securing green infrastructure. Now, as I say, I can't comment on the specific circumstances there. I've already outlined the benefits of access to nature for people and, in all circumstances, I would hope that that factor is at least taken into account as part of any planning decisions that are made.

We'll work with partners and communities across Wales to change attitudes and behaviours in how we dispose of our waste. That, of course, includes funding Fly-tipping Action Wales, which raises awareness, co-ordinates partner and community action, and works collaboratively with local authority enforcement teams, and this work results, of course, in increased prosecutions, in community engagement and preventative measures across Wales.

Diolch. From throwing litter out of a car window to the dumping of illegal waste at industrial scales, fly-tipping blights our communities and our environment. Cleaning up the mess is a significant cost to our local authorities. Welsh Labour are committed to cleaning up our streets and neighbourhoods by increasing fines and creating new offences. Fly-tipping doesn't seem to be a priority in Plaid Cymru's first 100 days document. Will you commit to doing the same?

Well, look, fly-tipping is a crime, and it needs to be treated as such, and that means strong enforcement and strong penalties. I referenced in an earlier answer the polluter pays as a principle. There's a clear parallel there in relation to fly-tipping as well, and I will give you my word that we as a Government will crack down as best we can on that, and I'm happy to have a discussion with the Member about how she thinks the best way of doing or achieving that is.

Minister, illegal fly-tipping in my constituency of Ceredigion Penfro continues to escalate at an alarming rate. This is not just an environmental issue, it is an economic one. The area that I represent depends heavily on tourism, with visitors drawn specifically by the natural beauty of our coastlines and our countryside. Given that enforcement activity and response times vary significantly between local authorities, what steps will this Welsh Government take to introduce clear national standards for monitoring, enforcement and clean-up of fly-tipping? And how will it ensure that the council leadership is held directly accountable where these standards are not met?

Well, look, I want those responsible for damaging our communities to pay the cost, not local authorities and our communities, because, ultimately, it's the taxpayer who ends up paying the bill. Now, Fly-tipping Action Wales is a programme delivered within Natural Resources Wales, by the way, that has dedicated enforcement officers who lead on fly-tipping investigations, and they work with local authorities collaboratively to tackle this waste crime. I want to see that work strengthened. I want to see us delivering more effectively on tackling fly-tipping, and I hear the examples quoted. And, no doubt, there'll be other supplementary questions, I'd imagine, or certainly correspondence now—I'm inviting it, aren't I; maybe I shouldn't do this—from Members to point out local issues on their part. But the Government is already doing a lot in this space in partnership with others, but I'm happy to listen to the view of Members, and I'll certainly sit down with the relevant people within the Government to see what more we can do.

I'd also like to thank the Member for raising the important issue of fly-tipping as it's something that I hear from constituents across Blaenau Gwent Caerffili Rhymni. We're so fortunate in the Valleys to be surrounded by beautiful natural spaces, from the Sirhowy valley to the Silent valley. These areas are so important for local people, wildlife and tourism alike. However, fly-tipping is having a growing impact on these spaces. In Caerphilly, we've seen a 63 per cent annual increase in reported fly-tipping incidents, which is one of the sharpest rises anywhere in Wales. And while community groups and volunteers do such tremendous work to keep our communities clean, they can't be expected to tackle this challenge alone, particularly as organised criminal networks become increasingly involved in waste crime. Cabinet Secretary, could you outline what further action this Welsh Government is taking to tackle organised waste crime and fly-tipping? And how is it supporting local authorities and communities to protect our natural environment? Diolch.

Diolch yn fawr. We certainly will continue to work closely with partners—and I mentioned Fly-tipping Action Wales—to clamp down on this issue. I know, for example, in Caerphilly, that the Fly-tipping Action Wales south-east enforcement officer has worked closely with the local authority to provide enforcement support to assist in searching fly-tips and undertaking waste carrier stop checks as well. So, there is a lot happening. But, again, in the spirit of listening to Members raising this regularly, we are, more broadly, also looking at how best to strengthen the suite of enforcement tools that are available to help local authorities to bring offenders to justice because, as I say, ultimately, if they end up picking the tab, then we all end up picking up the tab.

Gweinidog, you mentioned local issues. You may be aware of the significant fly-tipping incident on the Bwlch mountain recently, where what has been described as a river of rubbish was illegally dumped down the mountainside. The clearance operation, which took place recently, required a 12-hour specialist rope-access response involving Rhondda Cynon Taf council and the Central Beacons Mountain Rescue Team. I'd like to put on record my sincere thanks to the volunteers and council officers involved for their exceptional work. This incident highlights the considerable operational and financial pressures placed on local authorities when responding to large-scale environmental crime in challenging terrain, alongside wider systemic pressures on enforcement capacity. Welsh Government data shows fly-tipping incidents have increased, which suggests that deterrence measures are not yet reversing the overall trend. I'm mindful that it's very early days for this new Welsh Government still, but I'd be grateful to hear the Cabinet Minister's views on the balance between reactive expenditure on clean-up operations and preventative enforcement activity, and whether the Welsh Government is considering further measures to strengthen the polluter-pays principle, so that enforcement results in a greater proportion of prosecutions relative to the number of incidents, and that this becomes more cost neutral for public bodies. Diolch.

I think that's a really important point about the cost to public bodies. I did see media reports about what I think you could describe as an extreme litter pick. It was quite an effort from the mountain rescue team, the local authority, as you say, landowners and the wider community as well, hauling in, I think, well in excess of a tonne of fly-tipped waste. We will use all the powers available to us to hold those accountable for their action, and yes, we will strengthen the polluter-pays principle, so that we can properly hold perpetrators to account.

Thank you very much. The planning application for the revised restoration scheme at Ffos-y-fran and linked applications for continued use of the Cwmbargoed disposal point were called in in April. An independent planning inspector will provide advice to Welsh Ministers on these applications in due course.

Thank you. As you'll know, I'm very proud to be a woman from Merthyr and to have the opportunity to represent my community here at the Senedd. Much has been said about the people of Merthyr within these walls over the years, but now, with a new Government and new ways of working, it's an opportunity for us to listen to our communities better, rather than talking about them. Our communities have to be part of the process of making decisions that impact their everyday lives and their futures.

A lack of action from the previous Government has caused a feeling of frustration about the future of Ffos-y-fran. The voice of our community hasn't been heard over the years, despite the fact that they're the ones who live with the results of the decisions about this site. A mining legacy working group has been established to look at the future of the site, and as I understand it, the membership of the group is still being discussed. At present, there is no certainty that the voice of the community will be represented. If the restoration work is to be meaningful, the community of Merthyr has to be part of it. So, will the Cabinet Minister give an assurance that the working group on mining legacy will include the voices of the local communities that are directly impacted by the restoration of mining sites?

I wasn't aware of that. I do think that local voices are important in such discussions. That is something that I will take away and discuss further with officials. Thank you for raising the issue.

We are committed to taking a holistic approach to TB eradication in Wales, one that is based on science and is evidence led, drawing on expertise and advice from the technical advisory group and the TB programme board here in Wales.

Thank you. Before starting, I would like to declare an interest. I am a joint owner of agricultural land that is leased at the moment to a dairy farm in Ceredigion Penfro.

In Ceredigion Penfro, where farming is the backbone of our communities, our culture and our rural economy, bovine TB has caused huge and long-term harm. Last week, a constituent explained to me how his business has been destroyed by cases on his beef farm recently. The Pembrokeshire project offers a model that could help to drive stronger national responses. It draws from a deep understanding of the disease at a local and farm level, and draws together the skills of veterinarians and local farmers. I welcome the efforts of a Plaid Cymru Government that is committed to supporting farmers. So, will the Cabinet Minister be expanding innovative methods that are led by science, that include local farmers and veterinarians, to provide confidence and long-term security? 

I visited, along with the finance Minister, as it happens, the Pembrokeshire project some months ago, and I was inspired by the work that's being done there. As you said, it is led by the industry. The farmers and the veterinarian sector work together. They are developing approaches that are pertinent to that particular area that they are working within. I think there's a piece of work in taking the learning from there, and to see how we can roll that out.

A similar scheme is being developed in north Wales, which is a little different because it takes local circumstances into account there, but it's being developed on the same basis. These considerations and what is highlighted in that work will certainly be part of my thinking as I look at reforming the way that we tackle this particular disease.

The one other thing that I felt was extremely positive about the Pembrokeshire project was the way in which the farmers who were part of the project at last felt that they had some sort of control, and some sort of grip on the situation surrounding them. There is nothing worse than waiting for the result of a TB test and just waiting to hear your fate, without knowing, 'Is it something that I have done or something that I haven't done that has caused this?' At least by developing a system where there is a risk rating on livestock, where you can control some cattle out of the herd, you give the farmer on the farm some opportunity to have some influence on their own situation.

I think that that is hugely important in terms of mental health and tackling that feeling of hopelessness, where you simply can't put your finger on why these things are happening. So, it's important work, not only from the practical point of view of tackling the spread of TB, but also on other levels, such as mental health.

Like you, Minister, I've had friends and family who have gone to hell and back because of this awful disease. I should also declare an interest as my parents-in-law's farm has had to contend with TB for over 25 years. I listened very carefully to what you said earlier and I welcome very much what you have said today. Can you reassure farmers that the Welsh Government will introduce new measures to tackle this disease before the end of this year? Given the strain and stress that this has caused farmers, what additional support will the Welsh Government provide to organisations like the DPJ Foundation that play a vital role in supporting the mental health and well-being of farmers in our rural communities? 

As somebody who has spoken openly about my personal experience of mental health challenges, I am passionate about the work that the DPJ Foundation, the Royal Agricultural Benevolent Institution, Tir Dewi and all the others do in that space. It's an invaluable service, but it's so sad that we're leaning so heavily on them. I recognise that the previous Government used to announce certain funding support for those charities, specifically in the context of TB sometimes, but that angered me as well because it was a little bit like passing the buck—'We're not addressing the fundamental problem here but these organisations can pick up the pieces'. I want to move away from that space. Yes, I will support those charities and organisations as best I can, but fundamentally my focus is on addressing the root cause here, and that's what I will be getting on with.

And the final question, question 8, Paul Rock.

I recognise the importance of protecting and improving access to green spaces for community well-being, health and the resilience of our urban environments. We are reviewing existing support for urban green infrastructure and community delivery, working with planning and local partners to safeguard existing spaces and to expand access across Wales.

Diolch. Publicly accessible urban and suburban natural green spaces are absolutely vital for the welfare and well-being of our communities. They provide essential corridors and sanctuaries for nature and biodiversity. During the pandemic, we saw how heavily people relied on these green spaces and how missed they are when they're taken away, as has now happened in my own constituency at the northern meadows in Whitchurch, and is at risk of happening at Llanrumney Hall. We are sleepwalking into a situation where these green spaces will be lost to the public and to wildlife forever. The well-being of communities across Wales will suffer as a result. How will the Minister work with the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning to ensure that planning decisions protect publicly accessible natural green space?

As I mentioned earlier, I think, the planning system should take account of these issues. Clearly there will be examples where that doesn't happen, and there may or may not be valid reasons for that. That's a subjective view, maybe. But I am committed to sitting down and working with the planning Minister to see how we can improve and strengthen that area. I'm passionate about pocket parks and those kinds of approaches in terms of green spaces and realising green spaces and green potential, particularly in urban situations. I know that there's some positive work that's been happening of late in Cardiff around that as well, and that's more of the kind of thing that we want to encourage. I'll happily engage with the Member as well if he has any particular ideas or suggestions that we may want to pursue.

Thank you, Minister.

Item 3 is topical questions. 

I received a report on the impact of the fire when I spoke with the company's chief executive officer this week. All personnel were accounted for and evacuated from the area safely. The company is surveying the damage and considering next steps in partnership with the trade unions. I will receive a further update when I visit the site tomorrow.

Diolch, Weinidog. I'd like to place on record my thanks to the local emergency services for their swift response and support following the incident at the Tata site last week. I'm also incredibly thankful that no-one was harmed. The scenes that emerged were deeply distressing both for those who work on site and for residents living in view of the steelworks. I understand that Tata is still assessing the extent of the damage, with up to 200 employees directly affected. As a result of the damage, some work is being transferred for processing at the cold mill and pickle line at Llanwern.

I know the Minister is acutely aware of the concerns of Tata employees, their families and local residents, and recognises that this awful event has added further uncertainty at what is already an extremely difficult time for the workforce in Port Talbot. What assurances can the Minister provide to help alleviate those concerns and ensure that Tata Steel fully supports its employees during this challenging period?

I would also like to put on record our thanks to the emergency services—the mid and west Wales fire service—who attended the fire at around 8 p.m. on 3 June. The fire crews left the site on Friday 5 June. It's certainly something that Tata obviously wanted to stress: that their priority always is the safety of their employees and the wider community, as well as the safe and stable operation of the site, which, as the Member would agree, is such an important economic asset, not just in terms of its local and regional importance, but to Wales as a whole.

The company, in the discussions that I've already had, have said that they're obviously surveying the damage and have begun the work of making the sites safe. They have actively implemented, or have begun implementing, mitigation plans, including providing alternative processing for the cold mill and the pickle line, which is being transferred to Llanwern, in order to maintain supply to customers, and they've been working with the workforce to enable that to happen. The hot mill, of course, will remain at Port Talbot.

As I said, I'll be meeting the CEO and the wider senior project team leading on the electric arc furnace programme tomorrow, and that will be an opportunity to discuss any of the live issues related to the fire damage and the mitigation measures, but also to discuss the wider project. And Tata reiterated very, very clearly to me how committed they are to ensuring that that project is delivered to the wider benefit of the community and, indeed, Wales as a whole.

I'd like to echo the sentiments of the Minister and my fellow representative for Afan Ogwr Rhondda in gratitude at the emergency services who dealt with the fire. The fire at the steelworks in Port Talbot is an event that has caused great concern for many of my constituents, not only for the safety of the workforce involved, but also for the impact that this may have on the ongoing work to install the electric arc furnace. We've already seen further concerns raised this week regarding potential delays to the arc furnace. Thousands of people in Port Talbot have already lost their livelihoods due to the closure of the blast furnaces, and now many more people face anxiety about their future with the prospect of these delays. What action is the Welsh Government taking to support the steelworks in Port Talbot and protect the valuable jobs that many of my constituents depend on?

We will, obviously, do everything that we can to support the project, which, as I said, is of such strategic importance to Wales. I've already had an initial discussion with the CEO on Monday, not just to discuss the fire, but also the reports in relation to the delay. I'll have a further opportunity tomorrow, when I visit Tata, to discuss these matters in greater detail.

To deliver the connection, National Grid Electricity Transmission is expanding the existing Margam site with a new 275 kV substation, and delivering a second 275 kV substation at Tata Steel's Port Talbot site, both of which require the procurement and installation of new supergrid transformers, as well as a 2 km underground cable connecting the two substations. Now, we've engaged not just with Tata, but, obviously, with National Grid Electricity Transmission. They've indicated that the delay is down to several issues, not just the fault of one single party or issue. There's a range of factors. We're seeking to understand that in greater detail. Obviously, many of the levers here and powers are reserved, but to the extent that we can, either through making representations in order to influence policy or delivery, we stand ready to do everything that we can as a Government to ensure that this vitally important project is delivered as quickly as possible to ensure the economic benefit to the community and to Wales.

Firstly, I'd like to echo the concerns in relation to the fire last week and, of course, thank many of the firefighters, who made sure that, despite the damage, no-one was physically hurt, and the wider support that was there. This week, I think what we're all really concerned about is that electricity connectivity problems could delay the new electric arc furnace for as long as eight months. Llywydd, I know that in your role as the MS for Afan Ogwr Rhondda, you've already been in contact with Tata unions and the Welsh Government, urging speedy progress from all partners, including the National Grid. Now, according to reports, Tata desperately needs an upgraded electricity grid to function, of course, and many jobs are going to be absolutely dependent on this, and yet it looks like much of that needed investment in upgrading our electricity grid could be delayed because of political posturing over pylons. Now, we all know that undergrounding can be expensive—and estimates suggest up to 10 times more expensive—and this could obviously, then, lead to lots of long delays. So, the way that I see it is that it will be Welsh families and workers who will end up paying the price, with higher bills at home, and risks to crucial projects like the EAF at Port Talbot. So, will the Cabinet Minister now end that uncertainty and clarify this Government's preference towards underground cabling over the course of this Senedd term?

I thank the Member for her contribution. I think it's important that we provide reassurance and we don't add to any uncertainty in this regard. What she's referring to there simply isn't relevant in this case, because the voltage involved is at the extra high voltage of 275 kV or above—those are matters that are entirely reserved to Westminster. That's the transmission network, not the distribution network. So, it isn't actually, in any way, relevant to this case, and it's important that we provide that clear reassurance. And as I was referring to earlier, the 2 km of cable is actually undergrounded in this case, but that was a decision made based on a reserved basis, not a matter for us.

And finally, Janet Finch-Saunders.

Diolch, Ddirprwy Lywydd. The BBC reported a few days ago—. And if I might also add my thanks to the very brave firefighters, and, indeed, our thoughts are with the Tata steelworkers. Now, the BBC reported a few days ago that the delay to Tata's new electric arc furnace may be due to National Grid connectivity problems. It is further reported that these concerns were discussed with investors during a conference call last month. Of course, one of the biggest investors in this project was the previous UK Conservative Government and that was contributing £500 million towards the £1.25 billion scheme. Cabinet Secretary, can you tell me whether this issue was discussed with UK Government Ministers last month, and if so, whether those Ministers informed the Welsh Government about the grid issue? When you took office yourself, were you briefed that there was a potential connection problem that could delay the very important project?

Llywydd, everyone seems to be assuming that the delay, now, is linked to the recent awful fire, but a closer reading of the report suggests that this is an entirely separate issue and one that may have been known about for several weeks. So, can you, Cabinet Secretary, tell me when you first became aware of the potential delay arising from National Grid connectivity issues? Can you confirm that the £80 million transition fund established to support workers affected by the closure of the blast furnaces still remains in place, and if this delay results in further job losses or economic disruption? And if so, how much funding will this Welsh Government provide in further additional support to affected workers and their families? Diolch yn fawr.

I thank the Member. She raised a number of issues, which I think, in order to respond fully and accurately to, I will have to write to her, because, as I said earlier, I think it's important, as she will fully understand, in terms of the reassurance that we want to provide to the workforce always, that we want to make sure that she gets accurate information and that that is also provided to the workforce and to the wider public.

In terms of when did I know, then, I found out on Monday, and we were able to speak on Monday morning with the CEO and have a detailed conversation with him at that stage in relation to what had happened in terms of the fire, but also the reports in relation to the delay. Some of this information is commercially sensitive, so—. Well, there is market-sensitive information about a company that is regulated like this that they can only, under law, provide through appropriate channels. Ultimately, in a commercially led project like this, it's for those commercial parties to decide when that information is released and where, but I found out on Monday. We acted very quickly to ensure that we had as much information as we could from Tata. As I said, we will be seeking to see what we can do as a Government directly, but also what influence we can bring to bear on all of the other stakeholders in order to ensure that this delay is minimised, that we achieve progress in an accelerated way, because that's how, of course, we can maximise the benefit to the workforce, to the community and to Wales. [Interruption.] Of course.

I thank the Cabinet Minister.

We move on now to the 90-second statements. Mike Hedges.

Thank you, Presiding Officer. Does this come on? It has now. Thank you, Presiding Officer. I want to pay tribute to Val Lloyd, who passed away in May. Val Lloyd was my predecessor as the Assembly Member for Swansea East. She was first elected in a by-election following the untimely death of Val Feld.

She had been in poor health for several years and had to move to London to be nearer her two daughters. She was born and brought up in Townhill in Swansea, attended the local primary school and the girls' grammar school in Llwyn y Bryn. She first qualified as a primary school teacher, then as a nurse, before becoming a nurse tutor at Swansea University where she taught and influenced many of the current senior nurses working in the Swansea Bay health board.

She had been an active Labour Party member from the age of 16, where she met her husband Bob. They had two daughters, Rebecca and Samantha, who she was devoted to.

She served alongside me as a councillor for Morriston ward where her commitment to her community shone through, alongside her willingness to help others and to take on authority for the benefit of the people of Morriston. She was elected to the Assembly, as it was then, in 2001 and served for 10 years until 2011. Whilst in the Assembly, she served as chair of the Labour group and as Chair of the Petitions Committee. In both cases, she chaired with fairness and thoroughness. She played a leading role in both the plastic bag levy and the ban on smoking in public buildings, both of which she was very proud of.

On a personal level, I thank her for her support for me as both a candidate and a Member of the Senedd. Finally, thank you, Val, you are missed by your family, friends and those who you met and helped in the constituency.

Thank you, Mike. Jane Dodds.

Diolch, Lywydd. This week is Infant Mental Health Awareness Week and this year's theme is attunement, the ability of parents and carers to notice, understand and respond sensitively to a baby's emotional needs. For a baby, those early relationships shape everything that follows. When a parent or carer is able to respond with warmth and consistency, a child learns safety, trust and security. They begin to understand that their needs will be met and they are not alone in distress.

But for too many families in Wales, they are under real pressure. Poverty, poor parental mental health, domestic abuse and trauma can make those early months incredibly hard. Parents who are struggling themselves often need support, not judgment, if they're to give their baby the care that they want to provide. That is why early intervention matters so much. We need strong universal services for all families, alongside specialist parent-infant support for those facing the greatest challenges. Help available early, not only in crisis. Because when we invest in babies' mental health, we invest in the future of Wales.

Infant Mental Health Awareness Week is this week, and I urge all colleagues across the Senedd to champion babies' rights and to help ensure that every baby and every family in Wales can access the support that they need for the best possible start in life. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Thank you. 

And now the Reform UK debate on the childcare offer. I call on Dan Thomas to move the motion.

Diolch. I open today's debate in my name. The purpose of this debate today and the motion that I ask all Members to support is to ask the Welsh Government to publish the full costings and timetable for the introduction of their childcare offer within the first 100 days in Government. This is about transparency and accountability, and all Members, even those non-Executive Members who belong to the party in Government, have a duty to hold the Government to account. I appreciate that this debate will touch on the wider issues and benefits of childcare. I know all parties want the best for children and families, and we may have different ideas about how to achieve that, but the substantive motion that we will be voting on is this Government's full costings and timetable.

I want to reiterate that Reform supports childcare and we support the current childcare offer, which is already baked into the Government's budget, as introduced by the then Labour Government. At the moment, it is not clear if Plaid Cymru's flagship childcare promise is affordable or realistic. Plaid Cymru have had plenty of time to prepare for Government. They said their manifesto was fully costed. So, a month after the election, it is only fair that we ask: where are the full costings? Plaid Cymru's amendment to my motion refers to initial costings, but that's not enough. Plaid Cymru said their manifesto was fully costed, not partially costed or costed with initial assumptions—fully costed. So, if they cannot produce full costings, their claims during the election were untrue.

Now, during the election, I challenged all parties to publish their manifesto costings. If parties want to make expensive promises, the public deserve to know how they will be funded and they should be able to compare all the parties' costings side by side. Yet Plaid Cymru were not forthcoming. They were happy to announce the spending, but less enthusiastic about explaining the costings. I explained how Reform would fund our headline promises. Now, you may disagree with our priorities and how we would fund them, you may dispute them—that's normal in a democracy. But at least Reform offered the public an explanation as to how we would pay for our most expensive policies. Labour eventually followed our lead and explained their costings too.

On helping families with the cost of living, Reform believes that ordinary people are far better off deciding how to spend their own money than politicians in Cardiff Bay. That is why we support raising living standards through lower taxation. Indeed, our flagship economic policy is to take 1p off Welsh income tax and cap council tax increases. Those promises would have meant that many working families could have more money in their pockets, and we trust families to make financial decisions for themselves. The best way that Plaid can help with the cost of living and lift children out of poverty is to have a relentless focus on growing the economy. I'd encourage Plaid to take another look at Reform's manifesto, because the answers are all there: they should build the M4 relief road, they should scrap tourism tax, reduce business rates for the hospitality sector, revive our decimated high streets, build more homes, and create the foundations for businesses to invest, to expand and to create good, well-paid jobs. Because that is how families become more prosperous, and that is how families become less dependent on Government support.

And let's not forget the biggest threat to living standards and prosperity to families in Wales is the very reason that Plaid exists: Welsh independence, Plaid's goal to rip Wales out of the United Kingdom, a devastating, divisive project, which would cost every Welsh household up to £12,000. Now, £400 million is the price tag for this policy, according to Plaid, though it would end up costing much more. And even if we take them at their word, in the absence of proper costings or willingness to reduce spending in the areas that we have suggested, we in Reform could not see an alternative for the Government other than raising income tax. So, we ask the Minister to rule out raising income tax when they look to fund this policy. A punitive tax rise for all taxpayers would be a colossal mistake, and so I would ask the Minister in her reply to rule this out categorically.

Being pro-family means being honest with families, it means telling them how policies will be funded, and it means living within our means. Plaid are asking the people of Wales to trust another expensive uncosted promise. But we're simply asking for straightforward answers to straightforward questions. What are the full costings? How will you pay for it? From which budget lines will it be funded? What is the plan and timetable for delivery?

Now, I urge all Members to vote for this motion, a motion for transparency and accountability. Diolch yn fawr. 

Thank you. I have selected the amendments to the motion. I call on the Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Social Justice and Equality to move formally amendment 1, tabled in the name of Heledd Fychan. 

Formally. 

Thank you very much. I now call on Lynne Neagle to move amendment 2, tabled in her own name. 

Diolch, Lywydd, and I move the amendment in my name. As we approach a month since Plaid Cymru formed their Government, we are still short on information regarding their flagship policy. It's all well and good making pre-election pledges and getting headlines, but Government isn't about headlines; it's about action. Both the FM and the Deputy FM have been asked on several occasions how this policy will be funded and when it'll be rolled out, but we still await detail. 

Yesterday, we heard warm words and vague timelines, but that is not enough. Plaid Cymru claim this policy was fully costed, so what is the delay? As I've previously said time and time again, we all want to see more money in the pockets of parents, we really do, but it's not right to announce major spending commitments and ask parents across Wales to accept that funding on trust alone. 

The Institute for Fiscal Studies said we would be looking at costs of around £400 million a year by the end of this term. Plaid Cymru must show where that funding will come from. Does that mean other initiatives will be cut? Who are the people that will lose out? And when will they find out?

Now, I don't intend to stop raising the £555 million allocated to Wales by the UK Government because of additional spending on children with special educational needs and disabilities—£300 million this year alone. Now, we may not have used as a Government a statutory override to manage additional learning needs pressures in Wales, but the First Minister is wrong to try to minimise the immense ALN funding pressures in local authorities and schools. I would be surprised if he could find a single local authority that agrees with him, or any school, especially those carrying budget deficits due to ALN pressures. 

Now, we in Welsh Labour intend to scrutinise the new Government's use of every penny of those consequentials. And it'll surprise no-one that my concern lies with the children. Childcare is crucial, but it must be high quality. The first 1,000 days of a child's life is an absolutely critical period. It can determine lifelong trajectories for children. None of us can afford to get this wrong.

I didn't receive an answer yesterday to my questions on Flying Start, and Flying Start is so much more than childcare. It's enhanced health visiting, speech and language therapy, and, crucially, parenting support to underpin those parent-infant relationships and secure attachments that are fundamental to all our mental health. What impact will Plaid's childcare offer have on the Flying Start offer in Wales?

Now, there's no doubt that extra capacity within the childcare sector is needed for this policy to succeed. It can't simply be about access. If we are serious about rolling out this policy, it must be about the quality of childcare. We already have an early childcare and care plan in Wales that sets out that high-quality, accessible childcare can be transformational for children. But it is not clear what role the Plaid childcare offer is intended to play in supporting the development of all children, given that many are not eligible for the childcare offer. 

What about children with disabilities—

Will the Member take an intervention?

Of course. 

I'm hoping that the spokesman is not indicating that the Labour group will be aligning with Reform on this issue rather than supporting a credible plan. [Interruption.] I hope that I'm wrong. That kind of political posturing risks undermining a process and delivery on an issue where we may share aims. I understand that, after a crushing defeat for Labour, you will as a group look for what your role is here in this Chamber. I'm just not sure that this will help you to rebuild trust with communities like mine in Afan Ogwr Rhondda.

Thank you for that. If I can just point out that I am not a spokesman, I am a spokesperson. I'm very happy to clarify that our aim in this Chamber is to do the absolute best by the people of Wales, including our children, and that is the aim of our amendment today.

So, as I was saying, what about children with disabilities? The Deputy First Minister will know all too well that there are major challenges for families with disabled children to access childcare, with evidence suggesting that just 5 per cent of Welsh local authorities have enough childcare for disabled children. Llywydd, we all want more free childcare to be made available, but in doing so we must commit to getting it right. As I've said, children must be at the heart of this roll-out, and we are calling today for the Senedd to recognise the importance of high-quality childcare in improving the life chances of children in Wales. Diolch yn fawr.

I support the motion in the name of the leader of Reform, Dan Thomas. In doing so, I want to address amendment 1. This amendment notes that we have no childcare commitments in our manifesto, but, let's be honest, this debate is not a retrospective view of campaign literature; it is a live and operational challenge facing the Welsh Government. In doing so, I'd like to make a focused, sensible, practical case, not about intentions, but about whether the foundations are in place to deliver it well. My colleague over here spoke about delivery, and that's what I want to speak about today.

Let me start with the data. Here is the uncomfortable truth: Wales cannot yet see clearly how its youngest children are doing. High-level frameworks cannot mask just how fragmented this data is across 22 local authorities. Let me be clear: Senedd Research explicitly confirmed that, despite running the childcare offer and Flying Start for years, we have no mechanism to compare development outcomes between children who receive free childcare and those who do not. The Deputy First Minister promises measurable outcomes, clear targets and milestones, but you cannot measure outcomes when you have no mechanism to capture. Without that fundamental data, the Government is simply expanding in the dark.

This is precisely where childcare meets Government effectiveness. The Cabinet Minister himself confirmed in response to my written question WQ98571 that his role is to monitor progress and track progress against outcomes, and that was the 100-day plan. I do not envy the task he faces. He has inherited a system where finding a unified framework to measure national plans remains an uphill battle. No Government should be in that situation. But why, after 27 years of devolution, must the Minister for effectiveness still fight a fragmented data foundation to prove this policy is working? I don't understand why. We cannot deliver an effective childcare offer on broken machinery. This goes to the heart of the choice the Government must make: quality or quantity.

The Deputy First Minister spoke passionately about the devastating human cost of child poverty. I completely agree on the gravity of that crisis. But scaling a major multi-pound programme before the foundations are stable is risky. You cannot claim a strategic approach to poverty reduction when your data is too fragmented to measure whether your flagship policy lifts a single family out of hardship.

The Deputy First Minister highlighted that Steffan Evans of the Bevan Foundation will co-chair her new expert group on tackling child poverty. Of course, we all welcome that expertise, which is extremely important, but this Government itself frames this expansion as a key tool—and I say 'a key tool'—to tackle poverty. So, it should heed the Bevan Foundation's warning about fragmentation. A single universal offer is welcome and should standardise what families are entitled to, but it does not on its own give any consistent way to measure whether it is working, whether it is genuinely improving children's outcomes across 22 local authorities.

Then there is the workforce. I must gently remind the frontbench of a prescient warning made several years ago by someone who understood this sector deeply and now serves within this very Government. They warned that we could end up with a notional childcare offer without adequate funding to provide, train and retain staff, so that accessing it in your community becomes very difficult if not impossible. And let me say this: this warning was exactly right, and it remains exactly right now.

We are now facing a chronic staffing emergency in the early years sector. The Deputy First Minister has commissioned a new steering group to find efficiencies in the system. You do not build the walls while the foundations are still crumbling. If this Government expands this programme before fixing what is broken underneath, they are simply scaling up a system that is bound to fail the very families that need it the most. We must secure the foundation now precisely so that this policy can succeed. Because there is a wider pattern here. Too often, we are offered, not a decision, but the promise of one: a steering group, a pilot, a strategy to come. A change of Government has exposed a system that is cautious, process obsessed, and slow to act. Let's be honest, the capital that Ministers have today will never be higher. If they do not use it now to drive decisions, the drift will persist and children will wait.

So, let me sum up: children must stay at the centre of this, not the timetable, not the headline, not the politics—the children. Get the data, the quality and the workforce right and this can work. Get them wrong, and we will have spent a great deal of public money to deliver something that simply does not work.

Let us not forget that Reform UK's entire Senedd manifesto contained nothing on childcare at all—not a single proposal. At a time when families across Wales are struggling, this omission speaks volumes about their priorities. Of course, it's mainly women who are paying the price for inadequate childcare provision, with mothers forced to reduce their working hours or leave work entirely in order to care for their children. As a result, women are pushed into a vicious cycle of poverty, with years spent in the employment wilderness, followed by a lifetime of earning less in less senior roles than men, and ultimately facing a pension black hole because of prolonged periods without earnings. This is the societal cost of failing to take childcare seriously.

Reform UK's proposed tax breaks would do nothing to support parents who've already been forced out of the workforce because their childcare bills outweigh their earnings. Through my volunteer work, leading campaigns with Pregnant then Screwed, I've spoken to hundreds of families across Wales—families taking out credit cards simply to cover their childcare bills. That's the reality that Reform chooses to ignore.

We've also heard Reform representatives, including Dan Thomas, speak to the BBC about improving maternity and paternity rights. Yet this sits in direct contradiction to Reform UK's own policy of scrapping the Equality Act 2010. Removing the Equality Act would wipe out decades of progress on workplace rights and leave thousands of women without legal protection, if they were pushed out of their jobs for becoming pregnant or for taking maternity leave like I was.

Reform candidates have also chosen to spread fear and misinformation about the childcare sector, claiming that abuse in nurseries will skyrocket if parents are offered more funded childcare hours, adding that mothers will wish they'd looked after their babies themselves. This is misogyny and fearmongering, plain and simple. It insults both childcare professionals and parents. Claims that children in nursery are at risk of abuse are not only baseless, but deeply damaging. They undermine the professionalism and dedication of expert childcare staff. Nursery workers and child minders are a vital part of our care economy, and they ensure that our children have the best possible start in life, and these comments do a profound disservice to a sector already under immense pressure.

In 2024, I founded and chaired the childcare expert group. With Oxfam Cymru, I commissioned detailed research into the true cost of delivering high-quality childcare here in Wales. And that work has given me full confidence that Wales can deliver the transformational childcare offer that families have needed for far too long. Plaid Cymru believes in this ambitious approach, one rooted in evidence, fairness and the well-being of families. Expanding access to high-quality childcare is not only about supporting parents; it's about tackling poverty, supporting our economy, achieving equality and ensuring the best future for our children. Diolch.

Four hundred million pounds. That's quite a sum for the Welsh Government to find for their childcare offering, and it will be especially difficult during this Senedd. For example, it's been widely predicted that the additional needs of the NHS in Wales, with an ageing population, will outpace the extra funding the Welsh budget will receive. But I'm an optimist. I think, if the Government is willing, like Reform is, to make difficult decisions, as well as find and execute smart Government efficiencies, they might just get there. However, this isn't the only item on Plaid Cymru's shopping list.

Last week, the First Minister promised a roads-based solution for the M4. We all know such a solution can cost up to £1 billion. In fact, Labour's proposed solution was going to cost even more than £1 billion. And on top of that, yesterday, the Deputy Minister for Transport confirmed the Government were looking into a third bridge up in north Wales. That is going to cost hundreds of millions of pounds. And of course, the list goes on. Plaid promises to create 10 new surgical hubs, set up a brand new economy quango, build 20,000 new social homes, ensure that every primary school has a library and the list goes on and on and on.

Of course, the issue with costings isn't just where you'll get the money from, but how much money you need. That £400 million figure has come from Plaid Cymru, with no real further details or breakdown of the cost. So, should we all just take Plaid Cymru's word for it? That's why Reform has been hard at work in the background, modelling our own estimate for the cost of this flagship policy. And after taking into consideration details such as childcare costs rising due to higher demand, as well as the pull this policy will have for young families across the UK, we predict it will cost well over £400 million. Our central estimate stands at £587 million, almost 50 per cent more than Plaid Cymru's figure, and there is a serious possibility that if take-up is very high, this policy could balloon to costs upwards of £710 million.

I think I would be a hypocrite if I told you to simply take my word for it. During this debate, Reform have released details of our estimates, including the key assumptions of our model. And I welcome—in fact, I encourage—the Government, the whole Chamber, to scrutinise these costings. Because Reform ultimately believes that transparency, whether it's in Parliament, in Government, or in the wider public sector, is a good thing. Llywydd, all we're asking the Government to do is follow Reform's lead.

I'm grateful to have the opportunity to speak in today's debate. I want to try and attempt to answer a question as to why this motion today is so important. Because, for me, this debate is not just about pounds, shillings and pence, but rather about a message to parents and families around confidence in starting or growing a family. And western societies, like ours here in Wales, are facing a crisis, and that's one of declining birth rates. While it's perhaps not something we debate often in this Chamber, it will become one of the defining issues of our age that will impact every aspect of society. We currently have a declining birth rate at a level of 1.44 children being born per couple, well below the 2.1 required to maintain population levels as they are. This continued trajectory will create severe challenges for public services, the workforce and economic growth, and childcare costs and associated pressures are repeatedly shown to be a major factor in this trend.

Of course, childcare is one of the most important areas of public policy, because it sits at the intersection of family life and economic opportunity. It affects how families organise their lives, whether parents can work, and how children are supported in their earliest and most formative years. When childcare is affordable and flexible, parents are able to participate fully in the workforce, businesses benefit from more stable labour supply, and the wider economy becomes more productive. When it’s expensive or inflexible, it can become a barrier to work and place additional pressure on family finances. But childcare is much more than just economics alone; it’s about supporting families to make the right choices that are right for them and their children. Any successful childcare system must recognise the realities of family life and provide parents with genuine flexibility. That is why getting childcare policy right requires more than just ambition: it requires clarity about what is being proposed, how it will be delivered and how it will be paid for, so that families can have certainty and confidence to plan and prepare for the future.

If a policy is genuinely affordable, then publishing those full costings should strengthen confidence in it, not weaken it. If it is not, then the public deserves to understand what choices are being made elsewhere in the budget to pay for it. The debate is not simply about cost, it is about the broader policy—the kind of childcare system we want to see here in Wales. Welsh Conservatives believe childcare policy should be designed around families, not around Government. Government, of course, has an important enabling role in helping parents balance work and caring responsibilities, but it should do so in a way that recognises the different circumstances and choices of families across Wales, because while the state can create the right environments for children to be raised, it should never replace the role of the family. Parents remain at the centre of a child’s life, supported by grandparents, relatives and wider family networks, whose contributions remain invaluable to working families and communities alike.

That reality is already visible across Wales. Many families rely not on a single model of childcare, but on a combination of formal provision and informal family support. A successful childcare system should recognise that diversity, strengthen it and give parents the flexibility to choose the arrangements that work best for them and their children. Because, ultimately, a strong childcare system is about trust: trust in families to make decisions about their own lives, and trust in Government to be honest about what funding its policies will require to deliver its policies. That is why a policy like this should be properly costed, properly planned and properly transparent from the outset. This gives families confidence in starting—

Will you take an intervention?

Absolutely. My last sentence, certainly.

Thank you so much for accepting the intervention. You were talking there about families and the pressure that they're under, and we're talking about child poverty and those that are poorer families and how important childcare is, but would you also accept that it was the Conservative UK Government that introduced the two-child benefit cap, which has made so many parents so poor and has put people in a very difficult position? Diolch yn fawr iawn.

And we were grateful for the Lib Dems supporting that policy when you were in Government with us as well. [Laughter.] 

Policies should be properly costed, planned and transparent right from the outset. It's this that gives families confidence in starting a family or growing their family, and will go some way to fix what will continue to be the issue of our age, that declining birth rate. That is what this motion asks for, and that is why we should be supporting it here today. Diolch, Lywydd.

Thank you, Dan Thomas, for bringing the debate forward, and to all the preceding contributors. As opposition, it's our job to scrutinise the Welsh Government’s plans, but this Government has been very cunning. They've outfoxed us, in fact, because they haven't made any plans. You might think that I'm exaggerating, so let me reassure all of you that Plaid Cymru’s deputy leader, Sioned Williams, did in fact say on 19 May, on ITV, on national tv, that Plaid Cymru hadn't even started to plan out their childcare offer. They know that it’s going to be a phased plan, which is reassuring, and they know that it’s going to cost £400 million, which seems like an oddly round number for such a detailed and well-thought-out plan, but beyond that, details were, for some reason, hard to come by.

The interviewer did try to help, saying that maybe what the sector needed was more recruitment, more training and more people, but the deputy leader reassured the interviewer that actually what the industry needed was more focus, and they just weren't focused hard enough. And if they did focus hard enough, they'd be able to meet the massive rise in demand for its services that their childcare plan—well, I say 'plan', it’s more of an abstract idea at this point, a sort of childcare notion, if you will—would generate. I must admit that I came away from that interview wishing that ITV were in charge of childcare in Wales and not the Welsh Government. [Laughter.]

Okay, so we've heard it from the horse’s mouth that it's unplanned, but is it costed? Well, of course it's costed. No-one would dream of running an election campaign on an uncosted pledge of £400 million, especially if that same party was in the process of trying to criminalise lying. So, can we see where the money's going to come from? No. Can we get a vague indication? No. In fact, stop being divisive.

What we've seen as the opposition over the past few weeks has been a masterclass in political deflection from our new and esteemed First Minister, who somehow manages to wriggle out of giving a firm answer to basically any question he's ever asked. I heard that, last week, someone asked him, 'Have you had a nice day, First Minister?' and he replied that there are a number of factors to consider when evaluating whether or not he had a nice day, and that he'd be meeting with key stakeholders to come to a reasoned reply to such an important question, and that we could expect a reply at some point in the autumn. So, it's unplanned, uncosted, but will it work? Well, that does depend on what form Plaid's childcare notion eventually ends up taking, increasing supply of childcare versus subsidising demand. I do have a horrible feeling that Plaid's childcare notion is simply going to consist of printing £400 million in childcare vouchers and calling it a job well done.

No-one was expecting that you'd be able to deliver on free childcare immediately. They knew it would take time. But I think there was a hope that you weren't just offering an outline of a policy as a means of winning votes. I want to use this opportunity to ask you to please get your act together. Faith in politics and in politicians is at an all-time low, and that isn't good for any of us. And it isn't good enough to deploy smoke and mirrors when we ask you for details about this policy. We're not asking for them to spite you or to make you look bad. We're asking you on behalf of our constituents who are normal people, who deserve to know how their money is going to be spent.

This debate is really important, isn't it? This is the moment where we move beyond the question of whether to expand childcare and into the harder, more pressing question of how to get this right. But it is very perplexing that Reform UK, who have brought this motion today, had not a single commitment on childcare in their Welsh manifesto. In a nation with the least generous childcare offer in the UK and parents spending close to 60 per cent of their wages on childcare, Reform had nothing to say. And in a nation that has 30 per cent of our children living in poverty, Reform had nothing to say. Families deserve full transparency, full costings and a comprehensive timetable, but they also deserve to know who has genuinely championed this issue and who is only now using this as a political tool. [Interruption.] Of course, yes.

Thanks for taking the intervention.

'Mark my words. Children should be raised by the parents until they are old enough for pre school nursery.'

'I haven't said women should stay home, I'm merely stating that that is usually the case. Women nurture, men go out and provide.'

Llywydd, these are not my words. These are words from the candidates of the party who have brought forward this debate today. Reform UK are not serious about childcare. This is political posturing at the very best. I'm confident in Plaid Cymru's plans to deliver the most ambitious childcare offer in the UK, and voters in the last election clearly agree.

Elyn, sorry, just to clarify, an intervention is for a Member to ask a question of the Member. But I know we're all learning as we get to grips with this. 

Thank you, but I must thank the Member, because it reinforces what I was saying.

I must also be equally honest about the Government's 'delete all' amendment, something that they were not slow to criticise, as was I, when they were on the receiving end of them in opposition. Deleting a motion that calls for accountability and replacing it with a recitation of the Government's own commitments is not the answer to the question families in Wales are now asking. I was pleased to hear, though, both yesterday and this morning, the Deputy First Minister's commitment to bringing initial costings and phasing to the Senedd before the summer recess. I will be here, as will many, when the summer recess approaches, to ask whether they have been kept—not to score points, but because hundreds and thousands of children in Wales are depending on it.

Public Health Wales have made it clear that the first 1,000 days of a child's life represent the most critical window for intervention. Every month without a clear, accessible, affordable childcare system is a month that cannot be recovered. That may have irreparable consequences. That is why I continue to urge the Welsh Government to get this right. This will be Plaid Cymru's defining test. Welsh families need a date, they need published costings, they need to know in plain terms whether this policy will actually reach them.

I want to end by laying out three ways in which I will be pressing you to do this. Firstly, reach—a universal offer that works for all families across Wales. Secondly, quality. Flying Start works because, as we've heard, it is more than just childcare hours. It is speech and language support, for example. And thirdly, honesty. The previous Welsh Government committed to Flying Start for all two-year-olds through a budget agreement with myself. By April of this year, only 66 per cent of all eligible children were receiving it. Good intentions have a poor track record of being sufficient on their own. Deputy First Minister, I'd be grateful if you could give us your reassurances on those points. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

What we're seeing here today is not genuine policy scrutiny, but is deflection dressed up to sound like seriousness. Reform say they want to see the costings. They say they want a proper debate about childcare. But if you listen carefully to what's been said in their own ranks, by their own candidates, a very different picture emerges. Because this is not a conversation about how we build a functioning childcare system. The opposition are trying to question whether we should have an accessible childcare system at all.

We heard Reform candidates suggest that the solution to childcare is not investment but complete withdrawal, that women should stay at home. I've just had a baby. They don't think that people like me belong in the workplace, that people like me belong in this Parliament. They say that nurseries are unsafe, that abuse will skyrocket. Instead of answering this by strengthening provision, they question whether—[Interruption.] Yes, go for it.

Could I just ask you to read back what the original statement was that you're responding to, please? The motion. Thank you.

Yes, I have. They say that nurseries are unsafe, that abuse will skyrocket, and that the answer is not to strengthen provision, but to question whether working mothers should be relying on it in the first place. Today, when costings have suddenly become an essential concern, we have to ask what is actually going on here. Because we all know that this is not their way of demanding accountability. It is Reform's way of reframing the debate to move the conversation away from what is being said out loud by their own people in plain language. The reality is simple. We know their position on childcare. As I said, I've just had a baby. I'm in the minority in this Chamber who actually know what this looks like in real life in the midst of a cost-of-living crisis. This is exactly why Plaid Cymru's childcare offer is so important.

We know that childcare largely falls on mothers, and without accessible childcare, the voices of mothers are not in the room and they're not in the workplace. And nowhere is the seriousness of this reality starker than here today, because—[Interruption.] No, not another one, sorry. Voices like mine, of new mothers, should be at the front and centre of this debate, on an issue that disproportionately impacts them. But because of issues like extortionate childcare, new mothers are under-represented in this Parliament, in our politics and in our workplaces.

In Cardiff, childcare can cost around £85 a day. That's what I've been quoted. That could be around £1,700 some months. No tax cut will solve that. At that price, it would make more sense for my partner to stop working. And unfortunately for the opposition, that sits directly at odds with the rhetoric we've heard from their own candidates about women nurturing and men providing. What we've heard today is not really a debate about affordability. It's a debate about whether Reform believe that childcare should exist in a way that allows both parents to work. And on that question, the public is already hearing their answer loud and clear.

I now call on the Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Social Justice and Equality, Sioned Williams.

Thank you very much, Llywydd. Childcare is vital—for children, for families and for Wales. I'm very grateful for the opportunity to respond to this discussion today, because families in Wales are paying the highest childcare costs in the United Kingdom. They have been let down by the previous Labour Government, which was content for that situation to continue. Historically, childcare hasn't received the attention or resources that are needed, and this Government is determined to change that.

It is notable, of all the political parties represented here today, that only Reform chose not to make any commitments on childcare at all in their manifesto, despite the clear evidence of its importance to children and families. We had rather a confused response, I'm afraid, from them today to this question. They obviously haven't really thought about it much, as it wasn't in their manifesto.

We heard Dan Thomas talking about the importance of growing the economy. This measure will absolutely help to grow the economy. Studies have shown that it'll more than pay for itself when people are allowed to earn more, can increase their hours. Obviously, there's the educational attainment as well of children, who are going to be better prepared going into school—that level playing field made right for them, those children in poverty, through early-years education and support. They will be able to earn more in the long run. We know it counts for education gaps.

And then we had a lot of stuff around—. I don't know whether you want us to have a plan or don't want us to have a plan. You couldn't seem to make your mind up. But you kept on saying we have to have data, we have to have a solid plan, we need mechanisms. That's exactly the work we're doing. We are not jumping off a cliff like your party did during Brexit and saying, 'All will be well.' What we are saying is we need a plan. We are having experts to help us phase this. But we know what the initial phase looks like.

I just want to address Members on the Labour benches, who, as my colleague Alun Cox said, should really think carefully if they want to align with a party that has no intention of supporting families, and is instead pursuing a political stunt. Or do they want to take a constructive approach? I've worked with many of you in the last Senedd. I know that many of you understand the social value of childcare. Will you work with the Government to deliver this sustainable expansion of childcare? The approach we are taking is one that is evidence based and expert led. It is being guided by our new expert steering group, exactly as we set out in our first 100 days plan.

Can I just ask why you won't publish, in the first 100 days, detailed costings?

Well, for the reasons that I've set out, basically. What we need to do—. We will, before long, be having—. I'm having conversations with the finance Minister about the realignment of the budget in this financial year, to align with the priorities that all Ministers have, all the things that we were elected to do. As is set out in our amendment, there will be information brought to the Senedd around that, around the initial phasing and costings of that first phase of expansion. So you will have that information.

As a Government, we are really committed to providing an update on those initial costings and that phased roll-out of universal childcare, in line with the commitment we will make in that plan. We are fixing the failures of the previous Government. I agree with Jane Dodds here. We were sorely disappointed, weren't we? It was something you had an agreement with the Labour Party on, it was something that we had an agreement with the previous Labour Government on through the co-operation agreement. We didn't see focus, we didn't see funding, we didn't see enough progress, but we're going to put that right. Because families are navigating rising costs, they're changing working patterns, increasing pressures on their time. For many, access to affordable, high-quality childcare isn't just a question of convenience, it's the difference between being able to work, to train or to provide stability and opportunity for their children.

Improving access to childcare is one of the most effective ways of reducing child poverty. It helps parents to return to work, it gives that income to families. The evidence is clear, from bodies such as the Bevan Foundation, Quorum and the Women's Equality Network Wales, that investing in childcare supports getting parents back into work, it raises income, and provides that best possible start in life for children.

The Bevan Foundation notes that a childcare system that is well planned and works well is a key resource in tackling poverty and inequality. Investing in childcare and early years provision is one of the most robust economic investments that a Government can make. That research work, including research by the New Economics Foundation, shows that this investment in the early years leads to long-term significant gains—around 13 per cent is the estimate—by supporting parents, especially mothers, as we heard from Kiera Marshall, to return to the workplace, to increase economic activity and productivity.

We've heard directly from parents who want to return to the workplace but who cannot find affordable provision. We've heard from providers who have a deep commitment to their communities, who continue to provide high-quality provision across Wales. Improving access, therefore, is crucial from the point of view of promoting gender equality. Evidence from Women's Equality Network Wales shows that it's women who shoulder the majority of unpaid caring responsibilities—around 45 hours a week on average.

So, we're clear about our ambition, but it's not a small adjustment. It delivers a fundamental shift in how childcare is accessed and delivered. And so our focus is firmly on putting the plans we have into action as quickly as possible. That's why I've established this new expert steering group, which I will personally chair, bringing together key delivery partners from across the childcare sector, local authorities, Social Care Wales, representative bodies such as Cwlwm, a consortium of five childcare and play providers, alongside academic expertise from London Economics. The group will support the delivery, therefore, of this offer, drawing on practical insight from those working across the sector. So, we're going to drive this progress towards the broader childcare expansion. I'm clear also, of course, that Welsh-medium childcare must form a part of that ambition in every part of Wales.

The foundation of the expansion is the workforce, the dedicated professionals whose skill, care and commitment support children's development. And we are taking action to understand the workforce required to deliver this expansion in a phased way and to support, then, the growth in capacity and skills across the sector. And my officials are working with economists and partners to ensure we have that clear, evidence-based understanding of future need and the options, then, to meet it.

We will also ensure the sector is an attractive and sustainable place to work, with the right skills, support and progression in place to grow the workforce. So, this is why we are combining ambition with a clear focus on delivery. I will be updating the Senedd regularly as we deliver on this commitment. As this work progresses, this is a responsible and deliverable approach to a transformational system change on this scale. Llywydd, this Government is ambitious, and we are taking the practical steps needed to make our childcare offer a reality. We will work openly, collaboratively, as this programme develops, keeping the needs of children and families at its heart.

I call on Llŷr Powell to reply to the debate.

Diolch, Lywydd. Can I thank all Members for taking part in today's first debate of this seventh Senedd? A lot of us are participating for the first time, including myself, in a debate.

When we raised this issue, the question was: why were we doing it? That question goes back to the Senedd's very own website, because, Llywydd, if you Google and go on to the Senedd's website, you will find a page that says about us:

'Effective scrutiny of government is at the heart of the democratic process. It is our role to oversee the work and spending of the Welsh Government.'

Today's motion is simply that, to observe and question the Government's spending. Now, I, like you in the Government, took part in the election. I sat on those debates, I saw your literature come through my door, and there was a clear commitment that you had a costed plan. The First Minister himself looked down the tv camera and said to the people of Wales that he had a costed manifesto. Actually, Llywydd, he went further. He said it was independently costed. Now, I want to know why the Government feels that one person can see the Government's costings, but this Parliament, Members of this Parliament, this Senedd, can't see those costings. Why is it the people of Wales can't see those costings? So, be open—bring them here. That's all we're simply asking today. And I'm a bit confused as to why the Government wants to try to make some animosity in here about this when the request is simple. [Interruption.] Your actual motion to change and to bring in Reform's policy would suggest differently, Deputy Minister.

But on today's debate, I want to thank Sam Rowlands for his contribution, Lynne Neagle for bringing her expertise as a former Minister and Chair of the committee, highlighting real questions around this. Now, we will have a debate about childcare policy within this Senedd, but to bring it back to costings and why it is so important, as some others members of my party have highlighted today, we need to make sure that what we're giving the Government isn't a blank cheque. Risking £400 million out of the budget could put the health budget at risk, education, infrastructure. All we have heard from the Government so far are statements, no costings at all.

Now, I feel for the Deputy First Minister. I know she's done a hard service these past two days in here. It seems to have fallen on her quite some bit. But when we're asking for these figures, you say you will bring a certain form of costings to here. Will you actually provide us what you told the Welsh people you have, your full costings that your manifesto said were done? Is that something you will provide to this Senedd? Or do you believe that we, as Senedd Members, aren't worthy of seeing those costings that you claim to have? It's a simple question.

And I want to give the Government full weight. I recognise some of the contributions that have been given here. Yes, childcare is a real burden on families across Wales. My inbox is the same as yours, as are my colleagues'. We need to find a better way. That does not mean the Government getting a blank cheque. That is not the role of this institution to do. It is our job to scrutinise. When the First Minister stood in this Chamber and gave his first address, he said he welcomed scrutiny. He wanted to be transparent—those were his words. Then, now it's time for the Government to be transparent and provide the Senedd with the numbers so we can do our job in scrutinising. Surely, that's something you'd welcome.

I'm quite confused by some of the contributions that were given by Plaid, in the sense that other members of the opposition shouldn't be voting for this motion. You ended your contribution by saying we need to work collaboratively. We are. That's what we're here to do. You seem to say you can work with opposition parties, but they can't work with Reform in scrutinising this Government, which is quite strange because I thought we were trying to work in collaboration in a number of areas. So, it's a change of tone I see there from the Deputy First Minister. So, if you do want to work with us, we're happy to do so in providing—. [Interruption.] Oh, sorry, did you want to say something there? If you want to provide us with the figures, Deputy First Minister, we'll be happy to listen to those. We are happy to listen.

But the problem is, just as the agriculture Minister told the farmers, the Deputy First Minister is telling parents in Wales to be patient. The problem is they can't be patient. Their bills are rising now. What they need are actual answers and when delivery will come. So, in this motion, I ask backbenchers as well: participate in your role as legislators. Hold the Government to account. We weren't the ones that promised £400 million spending. [Interruption.] We didn't promise anything. I think you would find we promise things, but promising undeliverable things isn't something we were trying to offer.

This motion here is simply about providing the Government an opportunity to give their numbers to the Senedd. It's not here to debate the childcare policy today. I'm sure we will have time on that. So, I wish all Members would join with us in voting for this motion, and simply ask that you provide the numbers, as you say you want to do, and we can have that working relationship, and hopefully we can provide parents with that assurance in Wales as to how this childcare policy will be delivered. Because right now, I'm afraid—. As the press have tried finding out, no answer. As parents have asked you where the money's coming from, there's been no answer. My only fear is this Senedd is now going to ask you and we're going to get no answer. Thank you, Llywydd.

The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There are objections. I will therefore defer voting under this item until voting time.

Now, before we move on to our next debate—James Evans. 

Diolch, Lywydd. I'd like to raise a point of order that, during the debate, I believe that Kiera Marshall described the motion tabled in a way that does not reflect what it actually says, and has deliberately misled the Senedd on what has been tabled before us. Of course, Members are entitled to disagree and make political points, but could you please advise how Members can make sure that the record is clear when the wording of the motion has been misrepresented in this Chamber?

Diolch, James, and thank you for approaching the chair here to explain your point of order. I can give you my ruling on this occasion. The comments made by Members about the nature of the motion are points of debate rather than points of order, so such disagreements in the course of debates are a normal part of parliamentary proceedings. So, I thank you for raising this, and it's a good example of how points of order can be raised here within the Senedd, and how the rulings, then, of the Llywydd are final. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

We move now to the Welsh Labour debate: the school support staff negotiation body.

I move the motion in my name. Llywydd, Wales has around 27,000 school support staff. I want to begin today by thanking each and every one of them. They help children to learn, keep them safe, support children with additional learning needs and allow teachers to teach. They build strong relationships with children and young people, which are crucial for their well-being, so that they can learn and reach their potential. School support staff are now the majority of the school workforce in Wales. Our schools simply couldn't function without them. They are quite simply the glue that holds our schools together.

But in-work poverty is now a reality for many support staff. Most school support staff are only paid for work during term time, which makes up nine months of the year, whereas teachers have the same term-time working pattern, but receive a full year's salary. A Unison survey of more than 1,400 school support staff found that low pay is endemic, with 8 per cent taking home less than £1,000 a month, 18 per cent taking home between £1,000 and £1,199, and 38 per cent taking home between £1,200 and £1,399.

The survey also found that more than half are in single-income households. More than 90 per cent of support staff are women, so this is also an equality issue. That's why, as Cabinet Secretary for Education, I committed to legislating for a school support staff negotiating body for Wales to provide a dedicated forum to negotiate pay, conditions, career progression, training and workforce development specifically for support staff working in schools in Wales. That's why it was a key commitment in the Welsh Government education strategic workforce plan I published in March this year, and it's why the Welsh Labour manifesto committed to ending term-time only pay as the body's first priority.

I am proud of our record of social partnership in Government. Through the schools social partnership forum I chaired, I worked with trade union partners and local authorities to reach agreement that all level 1 teaching assistants who want to would move to level 2 from September this year, and I allocated £4 million of funding to local authorities to pay for it. That move will benefit up to 3,350 current level 1 TAs who will receive a pay rise of up to £1,350—a vital first step towards the goal of fairer paying conditions for all teaching assistants, and an investment in our children and young people, especially those with additional learning needs.

But we need to go further if we don't want to see headteachers like one in my constituency, who has started a school foodbank just so her much-valued teaching assistants can get by on what they earn, if we don't want to see support staff being forced to take better paid and less stressful jobs in places like Aldi or Lidl, and if we don't want schools and local authorities to spend millions of pounds on supply staff to replace the support staff they've lost.

Now, I wish with all my heart I could have taken primary legislation through the Senedd to make a school support staff negotiating body a reality in Wales. I was proud to speak at the launch of Unison Cymru's 'Time to value School Support Staff' report in December last year, to support their calls for a school support staff negotiating body and to tell them, and other stakeholders, that we had put a Bill manager in place to work on the legislation. From memory, the new Cabinet Minister for Education and Welsh Language was in attendance at that event. The preparation had begun. Now we want the new Plaid Cymru Government to commit to bringing forward legislation to create a school support staff negotiating body and to commit, as we did in our manifesto, to ending term-time-only pay for school support staff. Our calls are supported by the Welsh trade union movement, including Unison Cymru and the GMB. But valuing school support staff is not just the right thing to do for the staff; it's the right thing to do for our schools, our communities and every learner in Wales.

I will need to declare an interest for this debate, as my son has been accepted onto a teaching assistant training course from September. I welcome the opportunity to talk about this highly important topic today. School support staff are crucial to how our schools function and are overlooked far too often, especially ALN support staff, as the Member mentioned. I have seen first-hand the invaluable work that ALN support staff do on a daily basis to help children like mine, and it is vital that they, in turn, get the support they deserve. Plaid Cymru has long been on the side of those in the education sector, with the recent pay uplift for the lowest paid teaching assistants only being possible as a result of our deal with the previous Welsh Labour Government on the 2026-27 budget.

Pay is, of course, important to supporting staff and is necessary to address, but we need to set this is the current confines of the budget. To achieve our aims, it is vital that we have a Government that will stand up for Wales and fight for a fairer funding formula. With local authorities having the responsibility for setting pay for support staff, ensuring that Wales receives its fair share is crucial to give support staff the funding they deserve. 

However, this is not simply a matter of increasing pay. Teaching support staff are facing increasing workload and are dealing with a range of complex issues, including safeguarding issues, on a daily basis, and therefore more stress. I welcome Plaid Cymru's commitment to supporting and working in partnership with our education workforce, ensuring that teaching as a whole is a respective, attractive and rewarding career. This topic needs to receive the care and consideration it deserves, and the Government must consider a range of avenues to supporting this crucial workforce. Diolch.

I'd like to declare an interest as the former general secretary of TUC Cymru. I spent many years with the workers that we are talking about, actually putting that campaign together, and what it always came down to is: have we got the money? We got to a position where the money was there and there were a lot of things that we could have done. Then, of course, we are now in a position where, at a UK level, we do have the single negotiating body. Here in Wales, we are clearly going to be left behind if we're not careful. That is my real, genuine concern.

Everything that has just been said, and other contributions as well, yes, they are correct. This is about workloads, but, ultimately, this is about pay inequality, because nine in 10 of these individuals are actually women. Just like we are seeing in the dispute with midwives, in terms of the health visitors, again, it's women. So, when do we get to a point where we say that we are going to deal with the situation that's in front of us? Because if we can find money for childcare, we should be able to find money for these individuals, and we shouldn't have to wait for the perfect formula here, because the work has already been done. The single staff negotiating body will not only address the pay inequality issue, but it will have the official structure, where people can come in, bring their various different bits of research et cetera.

But, ultimately, this is about collective bargaining for those workers. We're talking about cooks, we're talking about cleaners, we're talking about admin staff, we're talking about the teaching assistants—lots of different individuals, who, as we say, look after our children, the unsung heroes, the many individuals who we clapped during COVID and we said that we were going to give them something different after.

So, honestly, my plea to the Government at this moment in time is: please let's move on and let's get this done. Let's not just dilly-dally and try and figure out what the perfect structure is going to look like. The unions are very clear, the work has been done, like Lynne said, the previous Government—. This was the issue, honestly, that was popular on the doorstep. In the same way that childcare was popular on the doorstep, this issue was really popular on the doorstep. There are going to be more winners than losers if we go ahead and make this happen as quickly as possible.

Reform recognises the importance of school support staff in the delivery of education and fostering a better future for our young people here in Wales. However, the creation of yet another quango is not the answer. We in Reform want to see quangos brought in-house to save taxpayers' money and reduce the tax burden on Welsh people. We don’t want to see new ones created. While we have sympathy for the proposals for year-round pay for school support staff, there will, of course, be financial implications to implementing that policy and we would not like to see more money diverted from our schools. Thank you.

I speak to support the motion, and, in doing so, I'd like to declare an interest as a member of Unison Cymru and the GMB, the two unions representing and campaigning for support staff in our schools.

I won’t rehearse the powerful arguments that have been made by my colleagues in favour of this motion, but, as a former leader of a local authority, as an acting school governor, and as a parent, I would like to recognise and thank all of the support staff within our schools working across Wales for the crucially important work that they do. I also want to emphasise how the posts that we define as school support roles have evolved in recent years.

A recent report by Unison confirmed how, since COVID, the role of teaching assistants in particular has changed hugely, with the role becoming more complex and a whole new range of skills required. A rise in anxiety amongst pupils has led to learning support assistants undertaking bespoke work with individual pupils. With demand rising for ALN services, academic research has found that teaching assistants helped pupils with learning difficulties make substantial gains in literacy. And there are international studies showing that support staff often play a pivotal but overlooked part of the school system, extending teachers' capacity and sustaining classroom quality.

The Education Endowment Foundation captured the case for change well when they concluded that, and I quote:

'With investment in planning and professional development, TAs reported higher morale, teachers valued the additional capacity and pupils benefited from more independent learning.'

TAs are, of course, one component of the school support workforce. Caretakers are another component. In every part of Wales now, we have newly built, gleaming school buildings, constructed as part of the last Labour Government's twenty-first century schools programme, providing world-class educational facilities. And I know that schools and councils desperately want these facilities to be available and accessible to the wider community beyond school hours. But, too often, achieving this relies on the goodwill of school caretakers going above and beyond their roles. And let's not also forget our school cleaners, very much at the front line in keeping our schools hygienic and safe during the pandemic, but sometimes—increasingly so in recent years as school budgets are squeezed—schools are often choosing to outsource to cleaning companies without the protections and security that local authority contracts offer.

As we've heard, many of our school support staff experience in-work poverty and they face the worst of both worlds, having to take their vacations during expensive peak seasons, but they're not paid during the time they're on holiday. And finally, as Shav was saying, it's important to highlight that a staggering 90.8 per cent of this workforce is made up of women. The working conditions of our school support staff is therefore a gender equality issue.

I would just make it clear that this is not a quango we're talking about establishing; it's a negotiating body for collective negotiations. It's a totally different thing. I just want to make that clear on the record.

But, Deputy Presiding Officer, this motion, building on a commitment in Welsh Labour's recent manifesto, and, indeed, on the tradition of social partnership that has been established by my party under devolution here in Wales, seeks to address a long-standing unfairness. It supports the lowest paid staff in our schools and it looks to ensure that those whom we trust with our children's welfare, to support their learning in school, are treated with respect and dignity and are paid properly for their work. I urge the Senedd to vote for it today. Diolch yn fawr.

I too must declare an interest as a local education authority governor of a school in north Wales. School staff are so important to our education system here in Wales. Teaching assistants, catering staff, cleaners, caretakers and administrative workers keep our schools running every single day. They're essential to the learning environment, even if their contribution is not always visible in the same way as classroom teaching. Yet, for too long, their pay, conditions and recognition have not reflected their importance. We've already heard, haven't we, how many are employed on term-time-only contracts, meaning they are, effectively, paid for around nine months of the year rather than 12, which creates financial insecurity in work. These are almost already the lowest paid in the public sector, and it's felt most sharply by those with the least flexibility to absorb it.

There is also inconsistency built into the current system. Pay and conditions can vary from one local authority to another quite significantly, even for staff doing very much the same roles. That means recognition and reward for their work depends too heavily on where they happen to be employed, rather than the value of what they do.

But, Deputy Presiding Officer, we have to be honest about how we got here. This is not a new problem. It's been developed over 27 years of Labour in government here in Wales, propped up by Plaid Cymru, during which these structural issues in our education workforce were allowed to persist. Staff have been left in a system that's fragmented, under pressure and increasingly reliant on goodwill rather than proper structure. It's therefore not credible for those same parties to now present themselves as discovering these problems for the first time or to claim ownership of a solution only once they are no longer solely responsible for fixing it.

We also know the system is under pressure. Workforce data shows that the number of learning support workers has declined in recent years. Schools are reporting growing strain on staffing and increasing reliance on support staff to fill gaps where teachers are absent. That is not a sustainable position for any education system. It's in this context that the proposal for a statutory school support staff negotiating body does become important. The principle is to bring structure where there's been fragmentation and consistency where there's been variation. Where a workforce is as large and vital as this one, there should be a proper mechanism for negotiating pay and conditions, rather than leaving it for uneven local arrangements.

This is about fairness, but it's also about stability. Schools function best when staff feel valued, secure and properly supported. When support staff face insecurity in pay and limited progression, it affects retention, morale and, ultimately, the quality of support available to pupils in the classroom. We agree that a statutory negotiating body would give school support staff a formal voice, ensure their contribution is properly recognised and help create a more coherent system across Wales. It would also help address long-standing inconsistencies that have built up over time rather than being properly resolved.

So, while this proposal is being brought forward now, it speaks of problems that have been present for many years. The question is whether we are prepared to fix those structural issues in a meaningful way, or whether we continue with a system that has clearly struggled to deliver fairness and consistency for the workforce that our schools, and, ultimately, our children, depend on. For those reasons, this proposal deserves serious consideration and support. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

I'm really happy to support this motion. I'll start by declaring an interest. I am a governor of a local primary school in my constituency, and my wife works as a teaching assistant. Most people here will either know someone who works in education or whose family directly benefits from the tireless dedication that support staff like teaching assistants provide. I don't need to remind Members of the important work that school support staff do: one-to-one interventions to support children with additional learning needs or children who are simply falling behind. They work with small groups, they cover for teachers and look after whole classes at a time, they run breakfast clubs and after-school clubs, they supervise children at lunch times and play times, they work unpaid overtime daily, and the pressures of the job mean they cannot always take the breaks they are entitled to.

They have to do personal care for children who are not yet potty-trained. They are frequently kicked, bitten, spat at and verbally assaulted. An increasing number of children don't cope well with school, impacting their behaviour and the classroom environment. It's school support staff that intervene to stop the escalation of violence or to resolve unsafe situations. They safeguard the safety and well-being of everyone in the room. The ongoing weight that they carry in their work is enormous, and they carry the ongoing stress with them home and all year round.

This is an issue of fairness, safety and well-being, and this is an equalities issue. Support staff are, as Shav told us, most commonly women—more than 90 per cent. With caring and community responsibilities of their own, they're individuals embedded in their communities who rely on them for the work that they do.

Unlike support staff in Scotland, they are not paid for the summer holidays—or any school holidays, in fact—and whilst the cost-of-living crisis escalates, they are forced to make difficult compromises around childcare and their household finances, as we've heard. The lack of year-round pay is directly contributing to the gender pay gap in Wales, and placing an unfair burden on those we rely on to ensure our children can learn safely.

As you can appreciate from my description earlier, the work that support staff undertake is unlike any other local authority staff role. They must have their own pay negotiating body. Wales Green Party believes that support staff deserve to be fully represented in discussions about their pay and their terms of employment, so that they can be treated fairly in the crucial work that they do. This is not the first example we've heard this week of where Wales is falling behind another part of the UK, but fortunately, it's a specific issue that the new Welsh Government can take immediate steps to fix. This is the right thing to do.

I will have to declare an interest as a chair of governors and also because a close member of my family works as a member of support staff at a school.

The Unison Wales report, 'Time to value School Support Staff', sheds light on the situation that school support staff face across Wales. From being overworked and underpaid with term-time only pay, to limited opportunities to train and grow in the role, it's clear that support staff face a range of problems. We know of the challenging situation facing the education sector more broadly in Wales, from low Programme for International Student Assessment scores to absence issues.

I'm confident that Plaid Cymru can tackle these challenges. However, there is a need for a holistic approach. We can't help support staff by only tackling issues of pay, crucial as they are. We must also increase teacher recruitment and retention rates, expand free school meals to support pupils throughout their school careers, and reduce the workload for all educational staff. These are major issues, and major issues take time to resolve. The Government must ensure that it takes the right steps to tackle these matters facing our support staff. Rushing to a decision won't lead to meaningful, long-term support that will help with the real problems facing staff in the sector. Thank you.

I call on the Cabinet Minister for Education and the Welsh Language, Anna Brychan.

Thank you very much, Dirprwy Lywydd, and thank you to the former Cabinet Secretary for Education for raising this issue this afternoon. As the current Minister for education and the Welsh Language, I do welcome the opportunity to respond to this motion, although would kindly suggest that previous opportunities in the past 27 years before this election could have been taken to this end.

But I would like to start by recognising the contributions that everyone has made in recognising the value and contribution made by support staff in our schools. Teaching assistants, administrative officers, technicians, lunch-time supervisors, caretakers—roles that have been referred to by many of the contributors this afternoon—are the backbone of our schools across Wales, and I do recognise the crucial role of school support staff in Wales and very much appreciate their contribution to our education system as a whole. They are crucial and their contribution is priceless.

The report—and many people have referred to this too—from Unison, 'Time to value School Support Staff: The case for a Wales Negotiating Body', which was published last year—and the former Minister is entirely right, I was in the room discussing it on that day—does make a clear case for change. Two thirds of support staff in our schools, almost 20,000 of the total of almost 30,000, are teaching assistants, and they do provide crucial support for some of our most vulnerable learners. And very often they are the first point of contact for our children and young people, and evidence from Unison does show that too many of our TAs are inadequately paid and work regularly beyond their pay grades. However, they continue on low wages, often on short-term contracts, term-time-only contracts, as many have referred to, and they face financial insecurity throughout the year because of this, and financial insecurity from one year to the next too. But as some people have already referred to this afternoon, salary is only one part of the picture.

Teaching assistants, as I've heard echoed around the Chamber this afternoon, are critical to learning and are therefore critical to our ambitions for education. Their roles are flexible and varied and can range from running intervention programmes, catch-up groups, supporting our key literacy and numeracy strategies, break duty, setting up classrooms, pupil assessments, liaising with parents, attending and participating in training, to leading on clubs and a wide range of extracurricular activities. I think everybody can agree that is quite an extensive and impressive list.

Teaching assistants, too, are the ones that schools are increasingly relying on to provide support in meeting the often complex healthcare needs of learners, as Paul, I think, alluded to earlier on. But I'm also aware that many teaching assistants, and I have heard this directly too, report little or no opportunity for career progression despite the increasing expectations placed upon them and their own career aspirations, and for too long the professional learning and career pathways for teaching assistants have been fragmented and inconsistent. So, I can and will say that this Government will stand up for teaching assistants. We will ensure that they are properly supported and are fairly remunerated for the important work that they do. And that means a clear career pathway that is tailored, focused and equitable, supported by school leaders and communities, with meaningful professional learning opportunities underpinned by professional standards.

And to turn now to the practicality of the motion tabled, it's important to note for clarity that the Welsh Government currently doesn't have the power to set the pay, terms and conditions for support staff. This is an issue for local authorities or schools as the employers in this area. And unlike our teachers and school leaders, the pay and conditions for teaching assistants and school support staff more broadly are discussed alongside the broader workforce of local authority staff, who have various different roles and responsibilities too. So, in order to make changes to the current arrangements, the Welsh Government would either need to introduce legislative proposals in line with the motion that we're discussing today, or work jointly with local authorities and the education trade unions in order to agree to changes on a non-statutory basis. And I am open to considering all options as part of the next phase of this important work, and I will be watching developments in England in this area with great interest.

I can see the benefits of a statutory body for our support staff that would put in place arrangements similar to those being put in place in England, which would give them a similar status to teachers, who are already subject to an independent pay review body. But this would take time to establish, and I'm eager to look at what we can do without legislation, in order to make a difference more swiftly in the shorter term.

And I'm also aware—and I suppose that today is a perfect example of the kinds of discussions that we've had on the importance of looking carefully at the budget that we have—at a time of great pressure on public expenditure, we must consider the fiscal implications in full. And therefore it would be too early, in my view, at present, to agree to introduce legislative proposals within the next year, before we as a Government publish our legislative programme and before we fully consider the challenging budgetary position that we have inherited. So, today we will be abstaining on this motion. We support its intent, but we need to do further scoping work with our social partners—and I agree with the comments made earlier about the importance of continuing to discuss in that way—to decide on the best way forward, rather than committing too early to a particular pathway of action without doing that work.

Dirprwy Lywydd, I look forward to working with colleagues across this Chamber to support and appreciate our school support staff. It is clear that there is support for and an understanding of their work across the Chamber, and that is something valuable that we can build upon, and to help them give the best possible experience to our learners, as they already do, but also to provide an attractive career for them as individuals and as a profession too. Thank you.

Thank you. I call on Lynne Neagle to reply to the debate.

Diolch. Can I thank all Members for their contributions to this debate? I'll try, in the time that I have available, to respond to as many points as I can.

Sera, thank you for your contribution, and I wish your son well with his new role. I do have to say that you're incorrect in the statement that you made about the budget deal. There was no money from the budget deal that went into this funding for a pay rise for support staff. The budget deal was £112 million for local government and this is separate money. This is separate money. [Interruption.] No, it is separate money. You go and check it. It is separate money. The £112 million went into the rates support grant. The rest of the money was £180 million for health that was agreed as part of the Plaid Cymru budget deal. The £4 million that I provided to local authorities was separate money and is to be protected for that purpose.

Several Members, including the Minister, have made references to the fact that of course it's not just about pay for support staff, and I have never suggested it is just about pay. It is about the complexity of what they're dealing with, the issues that Paul Rock referred to, and, yes, there is more work to be done in terms of ensuring they have proper career progression. That's why we included that in the strategic education workforce plan for schools: that commitment to that holistic view of what support staff are doing. But I am detecting a hint, in some of the contributions—yours, the Minister, and I've heard the First Minister say it in the past, and also Rebeca's—that somehow pay is not a really important issue. Well, I say to all of you, 'Go and ask support staff what they want.' Support staff want to be paid fairly for the job that they do, which is why we have made this call today.

Thank you, Shav and Huw, for your support. Shav, you know I know how passionate you are about trade union rights, and I really appreciate your support. Thank you, Paul, as well. You spoke so eloquently about the range of things that support staff do, and it's all the more powerful based on your experience as a school governor.

Sam, thank you for the Welsh Conservative support for the school support staff negotiating body. You won't expect me to agree with the political points you made about 27 years. The Minister also had a little pop there at 27 years. Let me say to all of you that I had two years in this post, and the Minister herself will discover that it takes time to change things in education. I set out in my speech, very clearly, the steps I took with the workforce plan, with the immediate pay rise for school support staff, and the commitment to the school support staff negotiating body.

I note, Minister, that you're keen to look at other options to support support staff. Again, I say to you that they want all those things, but they also want more pay. And unless you are telling me here today that you're not going to be keeping the strategic education workforce plan for schools, then that commitment is there, in black and white, to have a school support staff negotiating body. I think you need to be clear if you're not going to do that, so that we all know it. The term-time pay is a different issue, because that was part of our manifesto.

I will conclude by taking this opportunity to, once again, thank every member our school support staff in Wales. They do undertake that massive range of tasks. They are the glue that holds our schools together, those relationships with children, especially children with additional learning needs. I hope that we can all agree that we all need to do more to recognise the role of those support staff. But that also means recognising their hard work through fairer pay.

I say to Helen Jenner as well that it's not another quango—it is a statutory body responsible for negotiating pay. We need to have those protections in place for the reasons that Sam Rowlands specified. There is variation and it is not always easy to get local authorities to agree on a consistent basis. That's why it took so long to get the agreement on the level 1 teaching assistants.

The safest way to protect school support staff is to bring forward this legislation. I welcome the fact that you aren't voting against the motion today, and I hope that that is an indication of your willingness to work with me and others in this Chamber who are passionate about improving the lives of our support staff and therefore the lives of our children and young people.

Diolch. The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] I will therefore defer voting under this item until voting time.

We will now move on. We will take a short break before proceeding to voting time.  

I now call for a vote on the motion tabled in the name of Dan Thomas. If the proposal is not agreed, we will vote on the amendments tabled to the motion. Open the vote. Close the vote. 

In favour 39, abstain none, against 52. The motion is not agreed. 

We move now to our next vote. I call for a vote on amendment 1, tabled in the name of Heledd Fychan. Open the vote. Close the vote.

In favour 50, abstain none, and against 41. Amendment 1 is agreed. 

We now move to amendment 2.

I call for a vote on amendment 2, tabled in the name of Lynne Neagle. Open the vote. Close the vote.

Votes for 88, abstentions three, and against zero. So, amendment 2 is carried. 

I now call for a vote on the motion as amended.

Open the vote. Close the vote.

In favour 61, abstentions one, against 29. 

The motion as amended is agreed. 

We will now move to our votes on the next debate. I call for a vote on the motion tabled in the name of Lynne Neagle. Open the vote. Close the vote. 

In favour 17, abstentions 74, and against zero.

The motion is therefore not agreed. I apologise; the motion is agreed. I do apologise. 

We will now move to this afternoon's short debate, and I call on Cristiana Emsley to speak on the topic she has chosen. If Members are leaving the Chamber, please do so quietly. Cristiana Emsley.

Llywydd, thank you very much for the opportunity to discuss such a critical subject. I'd like to give a minute each of my time to Natasha Asghar, Laura Anne Jones and Nigel Williams.

There are moments in public life when political ambiguity becomes untenable. This is one of those moments. Because this debate is not, at its core, about slogans. It is not about outrage, it is not about a culture war and it is not about diminishing the dignity of any person. It's about law, it's about governance and it is about whether women in Wales can have confidence that rights Parliament enacted, and the Supreme Court unanimously clarified, will be upheld faithfully, fairly and in practice. 

Last month, updated guidance was finally issued to help organisations implement the legal position following the Supreme Court judgment. That matters. Clarity matters. Public bodies need certainty. Women deserve confidence. And service providers deserve practical guidance about how to operate lawfully and fairly. But let us be equally clear: guidance is not implementation, publication is not compliance and reassurance on paper is not reassurance in practice. Because the real question before us today is no longer, 'What does the law mean?' The Supreme Court answered that question unanimously. The real question now is, 'What will Wales do with that clarity?' Will implementation be timely? Will it be lawful? Will it be fair? And, crucially, will it be faithful to the protections Parliament enacted? Because let us be candid, women across Wales are asking legitimate questions—questions about hospital wards, about changing rooms, about schools. Questions about refuges. Questions about prisons. Questions about sport, about safeguarding, privacy and dignity. Questions not born of hostility, but of practical reality. Questions not born of prejudice, but of uncertainty. And women deserve answers, not euphemism, not ambiguity, not abstraction. Answers.

Now, let me say something plainly, because, too often, debates such as this are caricatured before they have even begun: this debate is not about hostility to trans people. Every person in Wales deserves dignity, safety and equal treatment under the law—every person. No decent society tolerates harassment, humiliation or exclusion. And let us remember something important: the Supreme Court judgment did not remove legal protections from trans people. Protections against discrimination and harassment on the basis of gender reassignment remain in law.

But lawful governance requires clarity, rights exist in law, and Governments have obligations to implement law consistently, fairly and predictably. That is not hostility. That is Government. Yes, difficult judgments create difficult emotions. The Supreme Court judgment caused distress for some people. That matters. Compassion matters. Empathy matters. Public reassurance matters. But leadership requires balance, because many women in Wales also noticed something in the immediate aftermath of the judgment. Political reassurance was understandably offered to those distressed by the ruling. I understand that instinct. But many women were left asking, 'Where was the equal reassurance for us? Where was the immediate clarity that women’s lawful sex-based protections would remain meaningful in practice? Where was the clear statement that safeguarding, privacy and dignity in single-sex spaces would not quietly dissolve into confusion or uncertainty?' That question deserves an answer, not because women matter more than anyone else, but because women matter too and because rights that exist only in theory are not rights at all. A protection that disappears at the point of challenge is not a protection. A right citizens no longer feel confident exercising is not a meaningful right. And a law that Governments treat as optional soon ceases to command public trust.

Now, some will say that this is complicated. And, of course, implementation is complicated. Rights balancing is complicated. Administration is complicated. But complexity cannot become an excuse for paralysis, nor can compassion substitute for legal clarity. The law exists precisely because competing rights must be balanced, not erased, not ignored—balanced. And Governments in democracies do not get to choose which court judgments they implement according to political comfort. The Supreme Court spoke unanimously. The legal obligation did not begin last month with guidance, it began 14 months ago when the court ruled. Guidance helps, but guidance does not replace legal responsibility. The Supreme Court judgment is not optional, and women’s rights are not negotiable.

So, today I ask the Welsh Government some straightforward and reasonable questions: what is the implementation timetable for Wales? How will schools, health boards, local authorities, prisons, sporting bodies and safeguarding services be expected to comply consistently? Which existing guidance, procurement arrangements, commissioning frameworks and policy documents will now be reviewed? How will public bodies be supported to implement the law lawfully and fairly? What oversight mechanisms will exist to ensure consistency across Wales? And can the Government provide a clear assurance that it will not seek, through policy, procurement, guidance, administrative practice or legislative reinterpretation, to weaken, dilute or redefine the sex-based protections accorded to women and girls in law? Because many women remain concerned that previous political positioning and manifesto commitments appear difficult to reconcile with the practical implications of the court’s judgment.

Scrutiny is not hostility. Questions are not prejudice. And democratic accountability is not intolerance. Indeed, scrutiny is our job. When law changes, or when law is clarified, public confidence depends on whether institutions follow through. And this Chamber should reject a false choice—a false choice between women’s rights and human dignity, a false choice between compassion and clarity. Wales is capable of fairness, Wales is capable of compassion, but compassion without clarity creates confusion, and confusion in safeguarding, privacy and rights serves no-one, least of all those who rely on institutions to behave consistently, predictably and lawfully.

So, today I ask not for slogans, not for ideological reassurance, not for rhetorical positioning, but for implementation—a timetable, a commitment, a reassurance to women in Wales that the protections accorded to them in law will remain protections in practice, because lawful governance matters, because public confidence matters, because women matter, and because the rule of law matters. Diolch yn fawr.

Can I take a moment to thank Cristiana Emsley for using her short debate to raise this important issue and for allowing me to contribute? I've actually had sight of a forthcoming report by the Wales Women's Rights Network, which has carried out a freedom of information exercise across secondary schools in Wales. Shockingly, it shows that around 8 per cent of the 185 schools that responded are providing—and let me emphasise this word—only mixed-sex toilet facilities. Not only that, but more than half of all responses confirm that the school had no policy in place governing the use of toilet facilities. Some of those same schools also confirmed that they operate a system actually permitting students to use opposite-sex toilet blocks.

Now, we all know the growing practice of mixed-sex toilet provision in schools is indeed causing some girls to skip using them completely for fear of humiliation at best and fear of assault at worst. Some girls are avoiding fluids during the day and are developing urinary tract infections as a result, and I've met many of these girls who are going through this.

So, I'd like to know today, Cabinet Minister: will you provide an indication of when girls in Wales's secondary schools can expect to be accorded their legal right to basic privacy, dignity and safety in single-sex school toilets? Thank you.

Could I firstly thank my colleague Cristiana Emsley for bringing forward this short debate today? It's been very thoughtful, and I concur with everything that she said and with what Natasha Asghar just said. The first short debate of this seventh Senedd, and what an important and pertinent one it is. It's simple. In Reform, we support what are basic rights for women and girls in Wales. We support the Supreme Court's ruling that sex means biological sex in equity law, because it's important for safety, for dignity and for fairness. This is the law, as Cristiana rightly says. It is crystal clear. Why should women and girls have to be fighting still for rights already enshrined in law?

As the former chair of the cross-party group on sport in the last Senedd, I want to know from the Minister when will you make it clear to sporting bodies in Wales that fairness and safety in sport are important. It is the law to abide by it, and women and girls in Wales should have the right to single-sex, safe, fair sport. Women and girls don't deserve more delay.

And I want to thank, once again, Cristiana, for bringing forward today's debate. Yes, we have asked you, Minister, a lot of questions on this in the last week, but, Presiding Officer, that's because Reform thinks it's important, and we think women and girls in Wales are important. Diolch.

Diolch i ti, Cristiana, for setting out the case so clearly. But, listening to this debate, I'm struck by how difficult some in this Chamber still find a very, very simple question to answer: what is a woman? And it's quite, actually, sad to see that lots have gone from this side as well. It's not a trick question. It doesn't need a taskforce. It doesn't need consultation or a carefully worded press release. And yet here we are today.

This matters because women's rights and protections are grounded in biological sex. That's not abstract; it's about safety, privacy and fairness in the real world. Women make up half the population of Wales, and that includes my daughters. They deserve clarity, honesty and politicians willing to speak plainly. We can treat everyone with dignity and respect while recognising biological reality and protecting single-sex spaces. That just shouldn't be controversial, yet it is for some. The public expect straight answers, not careful evasions, and women in Wales deserve better. Diolch.

I now call on the Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Minister for Social Justice and Equality to reply to the debate. Minister.

Thank you very much, Llywydd, and thank you for the opportunity to respond to this short debate. This is an important and sensitive matter. It relates to the rights of women, and also the rights of transgender people, and the Government has a responsibility to apply the law fairly, carefully and in a kind and compassionate way.

Let me be clear from the outset: this Government continues to be robust and firm in its commitment to being inclusive. The wording and the interpretation of the Equality Act 2010 is not a devolved matter, but the results of this judgment will have an impact on devolved services here in Wales. To implement the judgment and the code of practice practically, there will be a need for leadership from public services in Wales and the Welsh Government.

We must ensure that the law is applied consistently and in a way that reflects our legal duties and our values here in Wales. We respect the judgment of the Supreme Court, but legal clarity on paper is not enough in and of itself to provide clarity in practical terms. We need judgment, we need evidence and we need care. Every body and provider of services across Wales needs to ensure that they are complying with the law, and we are reviewing the policies, the guidelines and the operational arrangements that could be affected and are trying to ensure that decisions are lawful.

I also want to be entirely clear about what the Supreme Court judgment last April doesn't do. It doesn't reduce the current protections for transgender people with the protected characteristic of gender reassignment under the Equality Act 2010. Transgender people are a valuable part of our communities in Wales and they continue to be protected by law from suffering discrimination and harassment. This means that discrimination, harassment and persecution because a person has that protected characteristic is unlawful unless there is a specific exception applicable, and the draft code states that those exceptions should be interpreted in a very limited way.

That's why the way that this is implemented is so important. Women have a right to expect that their rights based on sex will be upheld where the law provides for them, including in relation to dignity, privacy and safety. Transgender people have the right to expect to continue to be protected from suffering harassment and discrimination, and to know that the implementation of the judgment won't become an excuse for exclusion, lack of respect or unfair treatment.

As the Cabinet Minister for Social Justice and Equality, I therefore want to share a clear message that we as a Government share the concerns of these two groups and we want to work with both to find our way through the practical implications of the Supreme Court judgment. That balance is important, and the Government has a responsibility to respond to this seriously, lawfully and carefully. 

The Equality and Human Rights Commission's code of practice will play an important role in helping to establish, interpret and apply the law. Public bodies and providers of services need clarity and they need a robust basis on which to make decisions that can be implemented in practical terms. The equality impact assessment undertaken by the UK Government demonstrates clearly that this judgment potentially will have a negative impact on people who are protected on the basis of gender reassignment. It also warns that changes to the code as a result of the Supreme Court judgment could have a wider impact, including effects on disabled people and on women, and the final stage impact assessment of the UK Government makes an important additional point: there will be a financial cost to the implementation. It notes significant costs across the United Kingdom and Northern Ireland, driven primarily by changes to facilities. In terms of Wales, there is no financial estimate of the implications for public services in Wales nor for the Welsh Government itself, and that's not a small matter. Wales has to comply with the judgment, which has significant operational and financial implications for services and for businesses in Wales, without a clear picture of the costs of doing so. So, we need to progress carefully, we need to progress lawfully and we need to make progress in a way that is practicable for the services that people depend on every day.

Although compliance with the law is crucial, our response also has to consider our equality duties in the public sector, our commitment to dignity, and our responsibility to ensure that what is decided in principle can work in practice in schools, in hospitals, in leisure facilities, across public services. So, yes, the Supreme Court has clarified the legal situation, but I think the real test is to come now. The real test is to implement the law with sensitivity, with dignity and respect for everyone, reflecting our values. And that's the standard that we must reach, that's the responsibility on our shoulders, and I hope that we can agree across this Chamber that this is the way to turn the legal judgment into a practical reality for everyone.

Thank you to the Cabinet Minister. Thank you, Members. That brings today's proceedings to a close.