Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru

Good afternoon and welcome to today's Plenary meeting. The first item on our agenda today will be questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Economy, Energy and Planning. The first question is from Mark Isherwood.

We are delivering energy policy by expanding renewable generation, reducing dependency on fossil fuels, and investing directly across Wales through Trydan Gwyrdd Cymru and Ynni Cymru. We're also working with the UK Government to deliver major projects, including new nuclear in north Wales.

Diolch. Last month, your colleague the Cabinet Secretary for Housing and Local Government attended the Interministerial Group for Net Zero, Energy and Climate Change, which focused on the UK Government's Warm Homes plan. In her written statement, she referred to the Welsh Government's commitment to ensuring people across Wales benefit from the transition to healthy, low-carbon homes, and the need to deliver lasting community benefits, including securing Wales's fair share of the £15.2 billion investment. Although Ofgem have today announced an energy price cap reduction from 1 April, National Energy Action Cymru note that people in Wales continue to pay more for energy, with north Wales remaining the most expensive region in Britain, and south Wales the third most expensive. So, given your responsibility for domestic energy and energy efficiency in Wales, how do you therefore respond to their call for the full consequential funding Wales receives arising from the Warm Homes plan—potentially equating to over £250 million—to be committed to cutting bills, tackling fuel poverty, and making the homes of the most vulnerable in Wales much warmer and healthier places to live?

Well, we have yet to have the full details in relation to what the Warm Homes plan means specifically for us here in Wales. But we are absolutely committed to working with the UK Government and to using all the levers at our disposal to reduce costs of energy for households in Wales, to improve energy efficiency across homes in Wales and across businesses in Wales, and, of course, to ensure that there is energy security for the future as well.

One of the things that we're doing that is helping to reduce the cost of energy to homes and business is our investment in Ynni Cymru. That's been tremendously successful over the last couple of years, in terms of directing funding for schemes that are often community-led and driven by communities to ensure that there's renewable energy in those smart local energy systems. So, those use local knowledge and local ingenuity to develop schemes for particular areas. They can be for a single housing estate, for example, or it could be a smaller project for a community centre, or some other local small and medium-sized enterprises grouping together. So, there's a whole range of options through Ynni Cymru. I'm hoping to say more shortly about where we take that scheme next, but it's been tremendously popular—oversubscribed in every one of the cases so far. Certainly, I think that that's a really good example of the kinds of programmes that we're able to support in Wales through Ynni Cymru, which is our very own company that looks to deliver those schemes.

Cabinet Secretary, you're well aware of the plans for turbines and pylons that are going to decimate my constituency. This is going to have a long-lasting impact on the environment, on biodiversity and, more importantly, on the tourism sector in my constituency. The First Minister in the past made a direct correlation between these pylons and mining in south Wales, saying that mid Wales had to play its part, which I think was an absolutely disgraceful comment for the First Minister to make. What I want to see, Cabinet Secretary, is a complete stop on these pylons and turbines and a full moratorium on that in Wales, because what we have got now is outdated planning guidance and applications being decided by Planning and Environment Decisions Wales, as I said, on outdated guidance, which needs to be updated. So, Cabinet Secretary, will this Government put a stop to all these decisions being made until we have the proper, up-to-date planning guidance, so Ministers can make the full and proper decision on these matters?

I think Welsh Government guidance is really clear on this. We've said that our preference is for undergrounding, where it's viable. It's not going to be viable in every case—it's not going to be commercially viable in every case and it's not going to be viable because of the geography of areas in every case. That's why we're currently considering our response to the independent advisory group's recommendations. We set up that group specifically to look at issues around the viability and the cost of undergrounding. Our response to that will describe how we can translate the recommendations into a work programme to shape and deliver the modern, resilient grid that Wales needs to meet our energy demands. That piece of work has been really, really important in helping us continue to consider what are really significant issues in relation to how we make sure that every part of Wales gets the energy that it needs. I completely understand how some people would want it to be desirable to remove those questions about the transmission of energy from, actually, the need of energy. We all know that businesses are really, really clearly dependent on energy in order to grow, and we need to make sure they have access to that.

I think the work that we commissioned NESO to do—the National Energy System Operator—is really important. The 'Beyond 2030' report sets out network recommendations for the whole of the British electricity system, and it does reconfirm the need for a high-voltage transmission link between north and south Wales. That was first proposed in the HND report. Clearly, an awful lot of work has to be done, and an awful lot of consultation with communities needs to take place. As I said, we've been clear about our preference, but recognising that it has to be a viable option, and there are so many issues that will come into play in terms of whether or not viability can be proved.

A few weeks ago, I was one of many Members who went out to the protest outside the front of the Senedd. Hundreds of people were there protesting against large lattice pylons being built in their communities. Those people, like me, are not against renewable energy. Far from it—we want to see clean, renewable energy. We want to support that. But the concern here, and I listened very carefully to your previous response to James Evans, is about that planning policy and the Welsh Government's position. The Welsh Government's position is that the Welsh Government's planning policy is that there should be underground, not overground, transmission. That's good. That's welcome. But then it's the details in 'Planning Policy Wales' that go on to issue those caveats about cost. But we know that the cost of undergrounding has come down substantially since 'Planning Policy Wales' first mentioned these issues, and that's why there needs to be a much sooner update of 'Planning Policy Wales'. My own constituency's plans for 132 kV cables ripping through beautiful landscapes of mid Wales is not acceptable. These transmission cables should be undergrounded. Of course, this is a greater cost for developers and private companies, but they should be footing that, not the people in mid Wales suffering from having to look at horrible lattice pylons ripping through their countryside.

Ultimately, of course, it will be bill payers who foot the bill for any increased cost, which is why the work that the independent group did was so important in terms of looking at costs and identifying future work that does need to be undertaken, because there are so many different methods of undergrounding. The costs of those are different, and the applicability to different terrain is different as well. So, there's still work that needs to be done, absolutely, and we'll be making our response to those recommendations before the end of the Senedd.

Colleagues will also want to know that Welsh Government officials are working with NESO's regional energy system plan, with their team, as they compile and review the projected energy needs across all the regions of Wales, and that would look to create a national energy system plan for Wales. So, there's more work that needs to go on there, but some recent activities include feedback on their proposed methodology that will be published early this year as well. So, there is a lot of work going on here. We do need to understand the trade-offs in terms of costs, which ultimately will end up with bill payers, and the desirability or otherwise of different ways of transmitting energy.

We are supporting small retailers through investment in town centres, our joint retail action plan, and the Business Wales service. Since 2020, we have allocated over £1 billion of extra non-domestic rates relief to retailers and others, and our retail multiplier will permanently cut the rates bills of small retailers by £20 million.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. We know that there is an ever-increasing use of online retail and services, which are often spoken of as a very real consequence of far less spending activity on our high streets. Yet, there is no doubt that the residents of Islwyn value the Welsh Labour Government having invested £136 million already, with an additional £100 million allocated over three years, to revitalise and energise our town centres, using derelict buildings, improving our green spaces and increasing that vital service diversity. Cabinet Secretary, what further action is the Welsh Government taking, and considering taking, to support our retailers in the great Gwent towns of Blackwood, Crosskeys, Newbridge and Risca?

I think the points that Rhianon Passmore made about the challenge and the competition from online retail is really, really significant, and that's why I'm really pleased that, following the consultation, we'll be introducing differential multipliers from 1 April of this year. We're able to do that because of the legislation brought in in this Senedd term by the Labour Welsh Government, which introduced the local government finance changes and gave powers to Ministers to introduce differential multipliers. I think that's really timely, because we recognise that smaller and medium-sized retailers really do face some unique challenges when it comes to competition from online retailers. 

Obviously, the total space required by retail shops within the NDR tax base is large, but each of those properties generally serves quite a small, localised market. In contrast, of course, online retailers have a relatively modest footprint, but, of course, they have a national or even international scale in terms of the reach of their business. So, it's absolutely right that we, from April, introduce the differential multiplier, which really will recognise that retailers are facing that competition from online sales.

Questions now from the party spokespeople. The Welsh Conservative spokesperson to ask the Minister for Culture, Skills and Social Partnership. The spokesperson is Samuel Kurtz.

Diolch, Llywydd. Earlier this month, during National Apprenticeship Week, I had the privilege of visiting Valero, a major employer in my constituency, to discuss their hugely successful apprenticeship programme. Indeed, it was great to speak to apprentices who are engaged, positive and willing to contribute to the future demands that Valero require and that our energy sector require. Minister, your Labour Government was elected in 2021 on a manifesto commitment to deliver 125,000 apprenticeships across Wales. In the 2023 draft budget, that target was revised down to 110,00, and, in July 2024, it was reduced once again to 100,000. So, with less than three months to go before the Senedd election, Minister, why has the Welsh Government failed to meet its original target and manifesto commitment of 125,000 apprenticeships?

Llywydd, I thank the Member for the question, and for raising the importance of apprenticeships for the Welsh economy and for the people who go on to be apprentices. It's great to hear that he had the opportunity to visit in his local constituency. I took the opportunity to visit lots of apprentices across the country for the whole of that week. 

Presiding Officer, he's already heard the information that he seeks, because he heard it in the sessions that he's pointed out. He knows full well that there are lots of pressures that the apprenticeship system has faced: the loss of European funds—we all remember when they said we wouldn't be worse off, and, well, that didn't come particularly true, as there was less money in the apprenticeship budget because of those decisions; inflationary pressures, which he's well aware of; and general cost pressures as well. So, there's lots there. What I'm incredibly proud of, Presiding Officer, is to have hit the 100,000 apprenticeship opportunities that we've delivered this Senedd term. It's an incredible investment from this Welsh Labour Government, and I know the difference that that can make.

Thank you for that, Minister. Look, I don't lay the blame at your door for the revised target being cut by 25,000, because, at the time, obviously, you were a backbencher. But let's not be under any illusion here: the original 125,000 target was set after the UK had left the European Union, after future funding announcements had been made. So, this Welsh Labour Government was aware of the full facts when it set that 125,000 target, and when it cut it to 110,000 and to 100,000. So, is it now time to admit to the people of Wales that that manifesto promise was never achievable, and it should have been set at a lower target from the outset?

Well, it wasn't after the loss of European social funds, was it, which contributed up to £43 million annually to the budget? This Government has grown the apprenticeship budget since then. We're investing more than we ever have before. You will have seen the increase in the budget for next year as well, taking it over £150 million. What I'm proud to say to the people of Wales is that the programme for government commitment of 100,000 apprenticeships has been met, and I'm proud to have delivered that for the people, because it's thousands of people in every single part of Wales—in mine in north-east Wales; in his own constituency; the ones he's visited. We've seen apprentices in a range of fields providing growth in the economy, because of the apprenticeship programme that we've designed and delivered with partners. I'm very proud of it. I'm proud to have been a part of it as an apprentice, and I'm proud to be the Minister responsible now.

Well, you've mentioned twice that 100,000 target, so let's dig a little bit deeper into it, because the perceived success of it is not all it's cracked up to be, is it? Because, at best, you appear to be relying on figures that include people who drop out within the first eight weeks—numbers that inflate the headline, but do not reflect completed sustained apprenticeships—and, at worst, you have deliberately chosen the less rigorous measure specifically so that you can announce with great fanfare that a twice reduced target has been reached just before an election.

That is exactly what Medr has pointed to. Medr said that,

'Including the starts which are not counted as part of the more rigorous target measure, there were 100,380 apprenticeship starts'. 

Yet only in January, using the proper measure, Medr published 91,420 apprenticeship starts, and it's simply not credible that a further 9,000 apprenticeships started between then and now. So, Minister, you failed this morning to confirm at committee why, but why has the Welsh Government changed the counting metric? Which metric should the public be able to rely on as a proper target measure? And will you publish clearly and transparently the figures under both measures, so that we can see like-for-like progress against the commitment?

Well, Llywydd, Sam Kurtz might want to go outside of his constituency as well and speak to more apprentices about the investment that this Welsh Government has made and the difference that that makes. It's why I'm so proud of delivering the target. The figure that he's asked for at the end—[Interruption.] You're not the spokesperson any more, Paul. The figure and the question that the Member asks for is already out in the public domain. He knows that, I know that, we all know that. If the research was done, he would have seen those two figures out there. Management information from Medr shows we've exceeded the 100,000 target—real-time data; I think it's important to use that. I'm extremely proud of delivering it. There's £150 million in the budget for next year—a budget that he voted against, and his party voted against. We're extremely proud of supporting all of those people, like the apprentice I met in the port of Mostyn at RWE's operations base. She is supporting Wales and representing Wales on an international stage in the skills competitions. The very, very best engineers coming from the apprenticeship programme in Wales. I once might have been one of them. He might be one in the future.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Luke Fletcher.

Diolch, Llywydd. The steel industry in Wales is looking at potentially another crisis. Evidence given to the Business and Trade Committee on 10 February by Tata Steel's commercial director warned that the domestic market could be significantly undermined within a matter of weeks, if there is no clarity about future safeguards, and that without decisive action, the UK risks becoming a destination for the dumping of excess steel.

This has obvious implications for Wales, where we are already seeing one of the most consequential industrial transitions in recent Welsh history. The steel strategy, which is supposed to set out the replacement trade protection regime, has been pushed back several times with no clarity as yet on its expected arrival. So, can the Cabinet Secretary set out what direct representations the Welsh Government is making on the UK Steel Council and through other channels? 

This is a really, really important point, and I can confirm that the First Minister raised this directly with the Prime Minister in a call just last week, where she was able to set out the urgency now of having that steel strategy in place and also for the safeguards to be in place as well. So, we absolutely recognise the urgency of it. I'm not sure if it's issued yet, but I know that the First Minister was intending to publish a written statement on steel. I think it might have gone out either today or yesterday, just to update colleagues, because we absolutely recognise that concern.

I had the opportunity to meet with a range of unions representing people working in steel across the various different sites in Wales, and they were expressing exactly these concerns to me about what steel dumping and the lack of safeguards mean for the future of steel. They were absolutely clear that the steel strategy has to be treated as a matter of urgency. We agree, and we are taking that up with the UK Government again as a matter of urgency. Welsh Government has a role and a seat on the Steel Council, so we take every opportunity there to make sure that the specifically Welsh perspective is represented. 

I'm grateful for that update, Cabinet Secretary. Of course, tariffs are one issue; procurement is another. And that's an issue in which Welsh Government does have some influence directly. Workers and unions are deeply frustrated that projects are still sourcing steel from overseas when UK producers are capable of supplying it. We have seen examples where thousands of tonnes of imported steel are being purchased for an infrastructure project despite domestic bids. Now, steel should be designated as a critical national infrastructure, allowing Governments then to introduce clear rules requiring the use of UK-produced steel wherever possible, allowing then for a workaround when it comes to international competition law. 

Back in 2016, the 'Public Procurement of Steel' report, which was published by the then Welsh Government, produced and identified opportunities to support the steel sector through interventions in public procurement processes. Its recommendations are still relevant today. So, has the Welsh Government ensured that the recommendations have been identified, that they have been implemented, and if not, why not, and will the Government join us in calling on the UK Government to designate steel as a critical national infrastructure?

Well, I absolutely agree that procurement is one of the ways in which we can seek to safeguard our steel industry for the future. I was really pleased that the UK Government's industrial strategy identified steel as a foundational sector, which it absolutely is, but what we need now is to see that feed through to procurement. So, in Wales, we're having conversations to see what more we can do through our own procurement rules to try and ensure that it is UK steel, ideally Welsh steel, that is finding its way into our infrastructure projects. I know that my officials have been having some meetings with British Steel on exactly that point, to explore what more we can do in this space to ensure that it is UK steel, particularly Welsh steel, that we use in our procurement contracts. I can't give any more of an update in terms of progress there, but I do want to reassure colleagues that those conversations are ongoing, and we absolutely see it as a crucial way to support the industry.

Finally, I want to turn to the longer term question of leadership from Welsh Government specifically when it comes to steel. There is a growing perception that Wales is being asked to wait for decisions to be made elsewhere, rather than setting out that clear, proactive vision for the future of our steel industry. Now, I fully recognise, of course, that the key levers, such as trade policy, sit with the UK Government, and of course the financial envelope is tight here in Wales. The level of investment that is needed needs to be put on the table by the UK Government, but making the strongest possible case for Port Talbot and other Welsh steel sites is very much within the Welsh Government's gift.

What's difficult to accept for many is this sense of a laissez-faire attitude—that we are waiting for things to happen to us, rather than driving outcomes ourselves. So, for example, union representatives have told me they want to see at least £1 billion from the national wealth fund ring-fenced specifically for Port Talbot, to support investments and future capability. Have there been specific representations made in this regard? It does beg the question as to why is Welsh Government waiting to see what comes out of the UK strategy as a whole. Where is the initiative in setting out clearly and publicly what our demands are when it comes to the Welsh steel industry? It's especially important now, when we consider that the UK Government has an active vested interest in Scunthorpe.

Some important points there, and certainly in terms of the steel strategy, we have been active partners in developing that steel strategy. My officials have been meeting with their counterparts. We've been providing also detailed written representations, which relate to our particular situation here in Wales and our steel industry that we have here in Wales. So, we have been active partners in the development of that strategy. Like everyone else, we want it to be published as a matter of urgency. We want the safeguards to be put in place as a matter of urgency. I will be taking up that particular point at the next meeting of the Interministerial Group for Trade, where we have, on that agenda, a significant item on steel as well.

On the point on the national wealth fund, we have always said that there should be a specific and significant amount of that fund ring-fenced for Wales. Part of the challenge there, of course, is that it requires co-investment, if you like, with industry, and we need to work with industry to flush out their plans, if you like, for the future and to ensure that we can work with them to identify some specific projects that might be forthcoming. Again, those conversations continue, particularly around what the national wealth fund could deliver. But we absolutely agree that there should be funding ring-fenced specifically for Wales, and I hope that all of those points were covered in the First Minister's statement, because I know that she hears, as we have all heard, the anxiety from people working within the sector. They want to understand what we are doing, as the Welsh Government, and of course they want urgent action from the UK Government, which we also want. 

Diolch, Peredur. The Welsh Government supports businesses in South Wales East with recruitment and training through programmes like Working Wales, Communities for Work Plus, Jobs Growth Wales+ and ReAct+. Initiatives such as apprenticeships and personal learning accounts match skills with employer needs, helping residents into sustainable jobs.

Thank you for that answer and that list as well. I had hoped that you would have mentioned childcare as well in that list, because access to good, affordable childcare is absolutely key if you want to get parents back to work. However, many providers in my region tell me that they are really struggling with the childcare offer rate set by the Government. I appreciate that this may not sit directly within your portfolio, but it clearly affects your work and the wider economy, so it needs a cross-Government response.

The recent increase followed a three-year freeze, so it has not kept pace with rising wages or business costs. Providers tell me that they feel that decisions are being made without a full understanding of the pressures that they face day to day, and some are really questioning how long they can continue. Will you work with your Cabinet colleagues to review the impact of the current funding model, and what reassurances can you give businesses that the Government is listening? Because it really doesn't feel like that is the case at the moment.

Well, I thank Peredur Owen Griffiths for that. Look, I think that he points to the importance of childcare and having the right childcare offer in Wales. I'm pleased to be sat next to the Minister responsible for that, and proud of the work that she is doing. When it comes to the comments that he made, they are the responsibility of the Minister Dawn Bowden, and I'm sure that she would want to respond to them. On the point of a review, there has been a review, and I'm assured that a decision will be made shortly. I'm sure that the Ministers responsible will update the Chamber on that, but thank you for the question today.

Minister, the latest economic statistics published by the Office for National Statistics are, quite frankly, shocking. They show that Wales still lags behind the rest of the UK in its unemployment rate, and that we still have the highest economic inactivity in Great Britain. In fact, people in my region in Wales take home the lowest wage packets in Great Britain.

After 27 years of so-called economic leadership from Labour, backed up by Plaid, why does Wales remain structurally weaker than the rest of the country? If inactivity were a policy success, Labour and Plaid would be unbeatable. Minister, do you agree with me that the best way to improve the Welsh economy is to get people back into work, create more jobs, create a pro-business environment, reduce that tax burden, reduce unnecessary red tape, and reduce bureaucracy? Diolch.

I thank Laura Anne Jones for that question. I do agree that it is important to tackle the challenges of those who are inactive in our economy at the moment. That's exactly what we are doing. We're doing it with the young person's guarantee. We're doing it with a series of programmes that I've already listed this afternoon.

But we want to go further, Presiding Officer, and enhance the offer, particularly around those who are currently not in education, employment or training. That's what we are doing with the development of the employability support programme, looking at ways to enhance the employability support offer, both for those who are seeking work and for businesses that are seeking people for the workplace as well. That work is progressing and the way in which that work progresses further is by electing a Welsh Labour Government in the elections in May.

The future of the aerospace sector in Wales is a bright one. We are already home to some of the major players in the sector, helping develop them and their supply chains through our comprehensive package of business support, including innovation, export and skills assistance.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. Much of the real aerospace growth we are seeing in Wales, such as Safran expanding in Cwmbran or investment by British Airways at Cardiff, is being driven by the industry and UK-level investment. A minority of the investment is coming from this Welsh Government. However, at the same time, your Government is continuing to pour hundreds of millions of pounds—Welsh taxpayers' pounds—into Cardiff Airport, while failing to invest properly in the aerospace sector, which actually underpins the airport's long-term success. Doesn't funding the airport instead of the wider sector simply store up more problems for the airport down the line? Without a strong aerospace ecosystem around it, Cardiff Airport will continue to be a loss-making, directionless distraction for the Welsh Government, permanently propped up by public money. Cabinet Secretary, do you accept that this approach risks leaving the airport even more exposed in the future?

The legal proceedings brought by Bristol Airport, which challenged the subsidy decision, are ongoing pending the judgment of the Competition Appeal Tribunal, so obviously, with those legal proceedings remaining active, I'm not going to comment in any way on that particular issue. However, I will say that we have a really strong relationship with the aerospace sector here in Wales, which is inextricably linked to defence. We see these as areas of significant growth in the future.

ADS, the voice of aerospace in the UK, tell us that the global aircraft backlog, dominated by Airbus and Boeing, has reached a record high, standing at 16,371 aircraft. Clearly, that backlog can account for more than 13 years of work in the aerospace sector in the UK. Obviously, the potential and the opportunities are really significant. I think there are also some new and exciting developments as the sector transitions towards net zero. Again, we're really well placed to exploit many of those opportunities.

I would also say that we have a really close relationship through academia with the aerospace and defence sector. Eight universities and 10 further education colleges have specific aerospace and defence capabilities. It is the case that the UK Government is investing heavily in this sector. It has extended the Aerospace Technology Institute programme, with up to £2.3 billion, until 2035—a huge opportunity for us there in Wales. The Advanced Manufacturing Research Centre Cymru alone was undertaking seven projects with ATI funding support in 2025. So, we absolutely welcome that UK Government funding to Wales. Where we add value, we do so, and that's through ensuring that we have robust supply chains, and also that we understand what the skills needs are for industry and that we work with industry to meet those needs.

We recognise the significant impact that these redundancies will have on staff, their families and the wider area. We will ensure that anyone affected is provided with all the information, advice and guidance they need about the support available to them, including from the ReAct+ programme.

Thank you for that response. The news on the job losses at Gilks came as a huge blow to Ynys Môn. Thirty people are employed by the company on sites at the Mona industrial estate and at RAF Valley, and this announcement has put a number of families in a very uncertain position. I would be grateful to get more information about specific support that the Government either has or intends to put in place in order to support these families now.

I don't need to tell you that changes to post-Brexit funding and decisions around the local growth fund will make it more difficult to support some of the people who will want to get back into work. But there have been a series of blows recently. I was at the Poundland shop recently talking to the staff losing their jobs there. Lloyds is another bank that's closing in Llangefni. The impact of the loss of hundreds of jobs in 2 Sisters is still being felt. So, whilst there are projects in the pipeline, if you like, in Ynys Môn, does the Minister realise that many people on the island need help now?

I completely understand that. It is a huge blow and, clearly, a really difficult time for the workforce affected. We do have a tried-and-tested approach to redundancies. We work really closely with agencies such as Working Wales, Jobcentre Plus, local authorities and others to make sure that anyone whose job is made redundant is provided with the impartial advice and support they need. The ReAct+ redundancy support programme can help people gain skills that recruiting employers are looking for in the area through vocational training grants of up to £1,500, and the Communities for Work plus programme also provides community-based support to help address employment through that one-to-one mentorship and training. Of course, Business Wales is there to support anybody who might be considering self-employment or starting their own business.

My officials have reached out to Ynys Môn county council's business support team. We're going to explore how we can best work alongside them as necessary to support the workforce. The Department for Work and Pensions has confirmed that it's proposing to host a breakfast morning event to support the affected employees at Gilks, along with Môn CF, Careers Wales and Citizens Advice. That's there to highlight the range of support available to the workforce during this really challenging time, including things such as curriculum vitae and employability support, and our ReAct+ team will be there. There will also be advice available on benefits and what might be available to support people through those.

The collapse of the electrical and mechanical engineering company Gilks on Ynys Môn and the immediate loss of jobs is deeply concerning in its own right. The Member for Ynys Môn is absolutely right to stick up for his constituents on the island, but it also shines a harsh light, Cabinet Secretary, on a much bigger issue facing Wales more broadly. That company operated within a sector that has faced increasing cost pressures and challenging market conditions in recent years. The closure on the island underlines that business has been eroded at an alarming rate, leaving working families and communities without secure employment or economic opportunity, and contributing to a growing brain drain away from Wales.

Cabinet Secretary, we heard the First Minister last month say that the finance Secretary's interest has never been in the economy. We also heard alarming honesty from a previous Minister, who said that the Labour Government does not know what it's doing on the economy. I believe that what we're seeing today on Ynys Môn is a symptom of Labour's incompetence on the economy more broadly. Cabinet Secretary, will you accept that you don't know what you're doing on the economy?

I'll accept that there's an election coming, and I think that was a real stretch in terms of the question. But I'll take the serious point here. For any business that is finding itself in difficulty, I would absolutely advise them to reach out to the Welsh Government through Business Wales. We can provide information, guidance and support to businesses that are facing closure, or, indeed, to supply chains that might be affected in this instance. We can advise and support businesses on all aspects of operation, including financial review of the impact, HR, employment and plans for diversification, support on the supply chain and identifying alternative markets. In the first instance, if businesses are finding themselves in difficulty, I would urge them to reach out as soon as possible to see what support might be available.

We recognise the importance of a vibrant hospitality sector in Wales, which is why we allocated an extra £78 million of non-domestic rates relief to retail, leisure and hospitality businesses this year, as part of a total package of rate support worth £335 million. Alongside this, we're working with industry to help businesses upskill staff, attract talent and boost footfall. 

Thanks for your response, Cabinet Secretary. It's no secret that our hospitality sector is facing extremely troubling times. It's something that many of my constituents across south-east Wales have contacted me about. We know that the Welsh Government has announced that it will provide extra funding for the food and drink sector, but it's just a drop in the ocean and they don't have any long-term security. It also appears, in light of the new funding announcement, that the First Minister has now washed her hands of this, telling us that we cannot expect the state to step in to help. Instead of helping, the First Minister believes that the onus should be on the public and has told people to stop watching Netflix and buying wine to drink at home. Cabinet Secretary, do you share the First Minister's view on this, and what would you say to those owners of hospitality businesses across south-east Wales who are struggling thanks to more than a quarter of a century of failure from successive Labour Governments? Thank you.

I know that the First Minister, as would I, would want to stress the support that we provide to hospitality businesses. Let's remember that around two thirds of hospitality businesses in Wales have full rate relief. They pay no non-domestic rates at all—two thirds of hospitality businesses. You wouldn't know that, would you, from the way in which these issues are reported. That's due to their low rateable values. Of course, that's due to the fact that this Welsh Government spends about a third of a billion pounds of taxpayers' money every year supporting small businesses with their rates. So, I do think that we invest significantly.

At the same time, of course, I recognise that a number of businesses are finding rates particularly challenging, and indeed so after the recent revaluation. Again, you wouldn't hear it, but the revaluation doesn't raise an extra single penny, it just distributes the burden more fairly amongst businesses based on their relative property values compared to one another. To recognise that, we've put in place transitional support to ease the burden on those particular businesses that have, in some cases, found that their bills have significantly increased. But let's remember that two thirds of hospitality properties already attract full relief. I don't think that that gets the credit it deserves, because that's a choice that the Welsh Government has made to invest hundreds of millions of pounds in those businesses.

Solar projects above 350 MW are consented by the UK Government in accordance with national policy statement EN-1. EN-1 states that, for projects in Wales, the Secretary of State should consider section 6 of the Environment (Wales) Act 2016. Area statements covering the Gwent levels will therefore be a material consideration.

Thank you for that, Cabinet Secretary. I very much welcome the recognition from the Welsh Government of the unique landscape and value of the Gwent levels, and indeed the consultation that you launched last week on draft strategic planning guidance that would enhance protection for the levels. I shared this with various individuals, groups and organisations who have a passion for the area and are alarmed at the continuing applications for large-scale solar farms on the levels. You will be aware of those, Minister. As you say, the latest of these is of a magnitude that means it will be determined by Westminster. Thank you for what you said about Welsh Government policy and how that should be taken into consideration. When that consultation that you're holding is complete, how might that inform Welsh Government discussions with the UK Government, and what more might be done to ensure that the UK Government respects the planning and environmental policy of the Welsh Government?

I'm really grateful for the question. I'm very grateful also to John Griffiths for sharing our draft strategic planning guidance for the Gwent levels with interested parties locally. That's available for public consultation now until 31 March, so I'd really encourage people to have their say on that.

Once adopted, the guidance would supplement 'Future Wales' and it would work alongside 'Planning Policy Wales', and it should be taken into account during the preparation and development of plans as a material consideration in determining planning applications on the Gwent levels, so I think that it will make a positive impact in that space.

In terms of how the Welsh Government might take it forward, with the closing date on 31 March, it will be during the purdah period and beyond that officials will get the chance to analyse the responses and so forth. So, I think it will be for a future Welsh Government to continue those discussions with the UK Government, but I think that the guidance will put us on a really strong footing in terms of setting out what should be taken into account as a material consideration. 

The Gwent levels are one of our most distinctive landscapes and they're recognised for their exceptional biodiversity, historic character and vital role in climate adaptation, and this Welsh Government certainly considers that that role must be given significant consideration in decision making on proposed developments within the levels.

And finally, question 8, Adam Price.

We are driving economic growth in Ammanford and the wider Amman valley by backing regeneration, improving local infrastructure and supporting stronger employment opportunities. Through our economic action plan and Business Wales, we are building a more resilient regional economy, supporting innovation, developing skills and creating conditions for long-term, sustainable prosperity.

Economic development and regeneration in Wales, of course, in the Amman valley and throughout Wales, was reliant in the past largely on European funding. The UK funding that has replaced that has been deficient in two regards: it hasn’t been enough to make up for the loss of those funds, but it's also been inflexible and the criteria have been set in Westminster and are inappropriate for Wales. We heard about the local growth fund, which is skewed heavily towards capital—again, not appropriate—but also Pride in Place, which has forced local authorities to choose only one—within those 11 local authorities that will have money—town with greater than 10,000. That means that Ammanford, even though it’s the third biggest town in Carmarthenshire and has high pockets of deprivation, has lost out. In the meeting with the Prime Minister, did the First Minister raise this, the criticism that we've heard from your own benches, that we need that money and the power devolved to Wales so that we have a policy that respects our democracy but also respects our geography as well?

I do know that the First Minister has raised the issues in relation to the replacement EU funding, as we continue to call it, but Pride in Place and the local growth fund. I am not here to defend Pride in Place. I think that that money should have come to the Welsh Government, and that was the expectation. So, I absolutely am not going to in any way defend those decisions. They are not for me to defend. But in terms of the local growth fund, what we are doing is making sure that that has the biggest impact that it can possibly have. We share the concerns around the capital-revenue split. We had a long discussion about that in Plenary yesterday, which I won't rehearse again today.

In terms of the local growth fund, the UK Government has an overarching framework, and that’s linked to its industrial strategy. But the Welsh Government is now going to be agreeing and publishing its investment plan, which is what I talked about yesterday. Then it will be for the regions to develop their regional investment plans. So, I see very much the role of the regions being absolutely critical in identifying where the funding needs to go, where the support needs to go, which projects they want to support locally. This is very much about decisions being made at the most appropriate level, and local decision making will be critical in that space. We have determined that the CJCs from year 2 and 3 will be in charge of that, but what they will do now, immediately and over the next year, is refine those plans for local delivery. My officials currently are seeking the draft regional plans from the regions, and the intention is that those link very closely to the other opportunities within the regions, such as the city and growth deals, the free ports, investment zones, AI growth zones and so forth, so that we make sure that we are complementing what is, I think, quite an exciting range of opportunities, but we need to make sure that the local growth fund plays a specific role within that.

I thank the Cabinet Secretary. 

The next item will be the questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care. The first question is from Siân Gwenllian. 

Maternity services in north Wales continue to be under intense monitoring, and I recognise the concerns that arise as a result of that. The safety of women and babies is a priority of mine. To strengthen assurance, I commissioned the independent all-Wales maternity and neonatal assurance assessment, which provided a real-time scrutiny of quality and safety. I have issued a statement to the Senedd, and will act on its findings.

Thank you for that response. The assessment that you have just referred to, which has been published today, does note that there are weaknesses and crucial failings within maternity services across Wales. I haven't had time to read the assessment in detail yet, of course, but it does align with the experiences of families that I've heard about and with the experiences that have been reported in this Senedd.

In a report that was published last summer, the healthcare inspectors underlined the need to focus on staffing gaps at Ysbyty Gwynedd to maintain high-quality maternity care. I'm aware that the staffing pressures on a daily basis are an ongoing problem there. And I also understand that it's limited hours, namely 22 hours per week, that are being offered to new midwives in north Wales—that is, those who have recently qualified—and over a period of the past 18 months. This, of course, leads to problems in terms of the cost of living for them, and I understand that there are some leaving the profession entirely, although they have qualified, further exacerbating the significant staffing problems, and of course it's a great shame for these individuals who had their heart set on being midwives. What is your response to that? Is this a common problem across Wales, namely these limited hours being offered? Why is it happening and what is the solution?

The report published this morning shows a balanced picture, I believe, of the situation across Wales. As you say, it does highlight some areas where performance improvement is required in terms of oversight, real-time monitoring, providing consistency of care for mothers and their babies. But it also shows where the system is working in a way that is excellent and the work that staff are doing across Wales to ensure the best possible services to people. All of the recommendations are ones that I have accepted as a Minister. Work is already ongoing to implement those. There will be developments over the coming weeks that will allow us to move towards a far more real-time system in terms of monitoring, and I know that Members will warmly welcome that.

The report had important things to say about staffing and the workforce more generally—specific things to say about the roles of midwives, including newly qualified midwives, but also consultant midwives. So, there is a great deal to be said across Wales in the report. I don't know whether the Member's specific question will be happening in every health board, but there is some evidence to that end in the report, but perhaps we do need to look at that from the point of view of all the different health boards. What is clear in the report is that we need to refresh the workforce plan, and that's already in place. Health Education and Improvement Wales and NHS Wales Performance and Improvement will be working jointly to ensure that that does happen.

Around 6,000 babies are born in north Wales each year. Between June and September 2025, 50 per cent of babies were delivered by caesarean section. I am receiving reports from mums that it is becoming more common for women to be having c-sections instead of a natural birth. While I understand in some instances the importance of emergency caesareans, and also why some mothers who've had a c-section would then opt to be offered a second one, the statistic of 50 per cent, though, is still very high. There are obvious benefits from having a natural birth. It's good for mum, and it's certainly good for the baby.

Under the Welsh Labour Government, we've seen unacceptable waiting times, staffing shortfalls and poor communication with parents. You've promised to improve perinatal services, yet we're still waiting for this to translate into reliable, high-quality care. There's a feeling that a caesarean is offered because it's a means of being more prescribed, by those helping, for the mum to give birth. Could you have a look into this, Minister, because I don't feel the situation in our health service should determine how a child is born? Thank you.

Yes. And, indeed, it doesn't. I know the Member won't yet have had an opportunity to read the report, which was published today, but she will see a discussion of this very issue in the report, which I hope she will find helpful in clarifying the position for her. It is correct, as she says, that there has been an increase in caesarean sections, but also in induction and a greater medicalisation as well of childbirth.

My understanding, and it's anecdotal from visiting maternity and neonatal services, is that, often, it's the preference of the mother rather than it being offered proactively by the service. That, obviously, can be challenging because, as she made clear in her question, there are certainly disadvantages that can arise in the context of caesarean sections, as I understand it.

She's right to say that that has implications for the service overall, and that is also dealt with in the report, both in terms of staffing—the complement and mix of staffing is different, as you would expect—and also in terms of the theatre capacity required to deliver that at scale. That hasn't caught up with what has been quite a rapid rise in the number of caesarean sections. So, I think there are challenges that have been caused by that.

One of the recommendations in the report refers, specifically, to a service specification for the induction of labour. We will prioritise bringing that forward, addressing the points that the Member made in her question. There are a range of other recommendations in the report that we will be taking forward, but I think the report is balanced and as well as identifying areas of challenge, it is also clear that there are areas of excellence and great practice and dedicated professional staff delivering a good service.

Please could the Cabinet Secretary provide an update on the roll-out of digital IT to maternity services, and also the triage helpline for mums if they have worries?

Yes, certainly. So, the digital maternity roll-out programme is the responsibility of my colleague Sarah Murphy, but I'm happy to say that that is doing well. And by, I think, the end of March, certainly over the next few weeks, we will be in a position where every health board has rolled out the service. That will enable us to make one of the step changes that the report recommends that we make, which is to be able to move away from a reactive system that responds to incidents as they arise to one that is much, much more real-time and enables immediate monitoring of data. That's a very positive step, and will bring great reassurance to mums and families across Wales. But in addition to that, we're looking, over the course of the next year, to commission a piece of technology that has an AI component, which also enables us to use that data to predict future trends and the risk of future incidents as well. So, not reactive, not even proactive, but predictive, and I think that will enable us to be on the front foot much more than we are able to be in some areas at the moment.

She mentioned the support around triage. I've already, in fact, commissioned a triage line that will be available to pregnant women to be able to call if they have concerns. There's already one operating in Swansea bay, which was the implementation of one of the recommendations in the review there. So, we will use the learning from that, but the plan is for that to be a national line, which will, I hope, give reassurance to mums when issues arise during pregnancy.

NHS performance continues to improve. Over the last year, total waiting lists have fallen by 7 per cent, two-year total waits by nearly 78 per cent, and one-year out-patient waits over 60 per cent. The proportion of patients treated within target is increasing through focused efforts on diagnostics and planned care, and we are working hard to improve emergency care, cancer and mental health services so more patients are treated within the target.

Cabinet Secretary, Glangwili Hospital in my constituency is already in a poor state of repair. It's overcrowded, operating within an outdated estate and struggling to meet existing demand. However, the local health board now proposes to move additional services into this facility, including emergency general surgery from Withybush and stroke services from Bronglais. Now, across west Wales, patients see this as part of a continuing pattern—services being withdrawn from local hospitals, forcing people to travel further and greater distances for urgent and life-saving treatment. Confidence in these decisions is dangerously low, and constituents are angry and frustrated. I, along with my colleague Paul Davies, have written to you, urging you to intervene. So, can I ask you directly: will you intervene to ensure that emergency general surgery remains at Withybush, and stroke services remain at Bronglais? 'Yes' or 'no'.

I think, from my position, this is, frankly, extraordinary. What he wants me to do is intervene on the basis of a whim that he has set out in the Chamber and statements that he makes to constituents that run the risk of being misleading, I'm afraid, as he heard yesterday, in response to his colleague, the First Minister set out. What the health board is doing—[Interruption.] Does he want to hear the answer to the question? Then he'll allow me to answer, if he will. What the First Minister set out yesterday is a pattern, I'm afraid, of misleading people about changes to services. It is very important, for the reason that he set out in his question, that constituents do not want to feel concerned about this, that we have an open discussion and a discussion that is based on the facts. Now, there are changes that the health board is recommending that they will make. They will take some time to do that, and that has been on the basis of a very, very extensive consultation. Some sites will see more of certain activities; others will see less of those activities. But the overall picture is one of a stabilisation of services across Hywel Dda, which will lead to safer services, more effective services, and will mean that more of his constituents get a better service quickly.

One thing that affects performance within the NHS is when staff don't feel appreciated. This is certainly how staff—health visitors, in particular—in Cwm Taf Morgannwg feel, who are now on strike after the refusal of the health board to recognise that these health visitors are working at a postgrad, Master's degree level, and then, as a result of that, refusing to pay them band 7. Now, I'll declare an interest, Llywydd—my auntie is one of them. But what they want to know is what conversations is the Cabinet Secretary having with the health board around resolving this issue and recognising the fact that health visitors have some of the most important expertise within our communities when it comes to childcare. The reality of the situation is that none of these people want to be on strike. It's weighing on them incredibly heavily, because they know that they are a lifeline for so many in our communities.

Well, NHS Wales has a strong social partnership structure, and I want both parties to work together to seek resolution within those principles. This is a dispute between Unite and the health board. It's not a national dispute, and it hasn't been raised through the Welsh social partnership arrangements. I agree with him: I absolutely recognise the vital work that health visitors do in improving outcomes for children and families. They do incredible work, and that needs to be properly reflected, of course. NHS Wales employers, who work with the health boards in their capacity as employers, are co-ordinating work across Wales to develop a range of job descriptions, and Unite has been invited to take part in that. We have been in discussions, of course, with the health board, urging them to engage in the resolution of this dispute. I want both parties to do that, and there have been positive signals that both parties are prepared to enter into mediation to discuss an outcome.

Cabinet Secretary, you told the Senedd in a statement that no-one in Powys or Swansea is waiting more than two years for treatment or more than a year for an out-patient appointment. Yet your own November figures show that 1,200 pathways in Swansea are waiting more than a year for a follow-up appointment, and, in a written answer, you confirmed that 185 Powys residents have been waiting more than two years for treatment with other health boards in Wales. You also acknowledged that the Welsh Government does not hold data for Powys patients being treated by NHS English trusts. Given that, do you not accept that the statement did not present the full picture, and will you now correct the record, as I and my colleague Russell George have called for, and publish complete waiting time data for Powys residents?

Well, I'm grateful once again for the opportunity to explain to the Member how Welsh NHS statistics are published and referred to. As he will be aware, they are published and referred to on the basis of provider, rather than residency. I've had the opportunity to explain this to Russell George on many occasions previously. In those discussions, we've also talked about patients from Powys who are treated elsewhere. We've identified on a number of occasions those waiting for more than two years in the English system. So, it's perfectly clear what is being said; there is no need to correct the record. I can confirm that we have management information that tells us there are over 130 residents waiting for treatments in England, and we've already specified the number who are treated in other parts of the health service in Wales. Those individuals are referred to in statistics published in relation to the health boards where they are receiving their treatment. There is nothing new in that. It's the basis upon which the data has always been collected and published.

Questions now from the party spokespeople. The Welsh Conservatives' spokesperson, Peter Fox.

Diolch, Llywydd. Cabinet Secretary, as we come to the end of this Senedd term and the prospect of a new Government, I'm genuinely curious to know how you will look back at your time in office. Your Government holds the record for the longest waiting times in Britain, poor ambulance response times, health boards under serious interventions, appalling A&E waiting times, and we've heard today the terrible assessment of maternity and neonatal services. There is no getting away from the truth that our health service is in a managed decline. So, Cabinet Secretary, can you tell us how you rate your Government's time in office when it comes to managing our health and social care sector?

I'm trying not to be offended that I'm going to be written off just yet. I've got a few weeks left in the job, Peter, so do please allow me the opportunity of seeing out my term of office. But I'll take the invitation to reflect on my performance over the last 18 months, trying to avoid being too elegiac about it.

I think that whoever becomes health Minister after the next election will inherit a health system getting back into balance. I think we've seen significant reductions in the long waits, significant reductions in the number of people on waiting lists in Wales, significant reductions in those waiting for an out-patient appointment, better emergency and urgent care facilities, clearer accountability in the health service, and, I think, a Government committed to turning around the capital position, in which his Government at Westminster has starved countries across the UK over 10 to 14 years. We have seen a Government here committed to the health service and making available the resources that we can, and we are seeing that, together with a focus on performance, delivering the improvements that we are seeing in the health service today.

Thank you for that answer, Cabinet Secretary. This is my last time, really, to ask you these questions.

I think we've got one more time to go.

Have we? Have we got one more time? Oh well, I can go over them again, then.

I think, unless you know something we don't, Peter, there will be another set of health questions before dissolution.

All right, thank you. There seems to be a mismatch, whenever we talk about health and we hear responses from Ministers, to what is felt on the ground by people. The truth is that there has been a long history of systemic failures in our healthcare system here in Wales under your Government. This has been raised with me by many health professionals and clinicians a number of times. The fact is that, since January 2020, the number of patients missing the four-hour waiting target in A&E has risen by 46 per cent, the number of people waiting over the eight-hour target has risen by 59 per cent, and the number of people waiting for 12 hours has risen by an astonishing 64 per cent. Cancer waiting times are deteriorating, while patients are having to languish in pain in corridors, hoping to be seen. A lot of these things were before COVID as well, so we can't use that as an excuse. What would it take for you to admit that your Government has lost control of the situation and that you need to declare a health emergency? To be blunt, how much worse does it have to get?

Do you know what people don't want, Peter, is sloganising? What they want is a plan. We've got a plan, and it's working. We've got a plan, it's performing, we've got funding to go with it. I know it's hard for you to recognise, because the Welsh Conservatives have delivered literally nothing for patients, literally nothing delivered for patients in Wales by the Welsh Conservatives during the entirety of devolution—not a bed, not even a bedpan; nothing.

Sadly, we see continued denial.

Cabinet Secretary, as we've got another set of questions, it seems inappropriate to ask this one, but, Cabinet Secretary, the job that you have is not an enviable one. I would say it's probably a poisoned chalice. And it's clear that our NHS is in a dire situation and there is so much work that needs to be done to get things right. I do want to take this time to say that, while we may differ on our policies and our approaches to dealing with the NHS, I don't doubt your commitment and desire to improve the lives of people in Wales. You're very passionate about it in here, yet we're not seeing those results. And I think you've probably answered this in your first response to me. Could I ask what you would do differently if you had a chance? And what advice would you offer me, if I became health Secretary?

Well, I'm feeling quite emotional, Peter. I'm feeling quite emotional. If this is how we're ending the penultimate one, you could end the next one with a cwtch. [Laughter.]

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Mabon ap Gwynfor. 

Thank you very much, Llywydd. Well, over the past few months, we've seen a reduction in the numbers waiting for treatment. Although—

Where's your tie?

Ah, I know.

Although the general size of waiting lists is still higher than when the care recovery plan was launched, and although there's a long way to go until the Cabinet Secretary's pledge to reduce waiting lists by 200,000 is delivered, this progress in the campaign to ensure that people receive timely treatment is something to be welcomed.

However, I do have concern that the steps that have been taken by the Government in order to deliver this reduction are based almost entirely on temporary measures, at the expense of building local capacity that would allow the pressures of waiting lists to be incorporated in a more sustainable way into the daily activity of the national health service. 

Can the Cabinet Secretary therefore confirm what part of the £120 million invested in the efforts to reduce waiting lists over the current financial year will have been used on internal arrangements with private providers—insourcing, essentially—or outsourcing with NHS trusts in England?

Well, can I first welcome the warmth of the Member's welcome to the progress we've seen across the health service over the last few years? And I commend him on his relaxed approach today. I read a very interesting article that he gave in Wales Online this week where he talked about hoping not to be too busy as health Secretary, not to have to do too many visits or have to sign too many letters, or speak to too many people, in an effort to maintain a more relaxed pace. [Laughter.] So, I'm glad to see that in his capacity, as—as I think he thinks—health Secretary elect, he's taking on that chilled-out approach in advance. 

But, in all seriousness, he asks an important question. And, as I said to Peter Fox, whoever becomes health Secretary in the new Government will benefit from a system that's coming back into balance. Part of the challenge has been to be able to support the health service on a temporary basis in order to be able to tackle the backlogs. If the health service is focused significantly on tackling the backlog, it isn't able to make the progress in transformation or in investment in other services that I know he also wants to see. 

So, the funding that we have been able to make available has been a mix of additional capacity for the health service to be doing, as it were, more itself, but also capacity from outside delivered in hospitals, and, thirdly, as he identifies, some element of that is independent sector commissioning. I don't regard any of those as being anything other than temporary measures. Those are making massive inroads into the size of the waiting lists and the longest waits, getting the system back into balance, freeing up capacity in the health service to be able to do the transformation, to be able to deliver on those mandatory actions that I've set out for them, which I know that he supports, and we are seeing them doing that as well, which I know he'll want to welcome. 

Well, thank you for the response, and, of course, making sure that we have sustainable capacity is something that we would all welcome. But, based on the information shared with us by a healthcare professional in Betsi Cadwaladr, we know that many of the insourcing and outsourcing arrangements used to deliver additional elective care treatments will come to an end at the end of March. And the fact that the Government has failed to invest in enhancing the capacity and resilience of locally-based services there means that it is likely that the waiting lists will once again increase without a further injection of funding over and above the regular NHS budgeting.

For example, what we have been informed by the information that we've received from Betsi Cadwaladr is that around 30,000 patients will be returned to direct care at Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board once the insourcing arrangement with a private provider, ID Medical, expires at the end of March, as I said, with plans for reintegration on waiting lists, and I quote, 'nowhere near complete', according to our source, a little over a month before the ID Medical contract comes to an end. Can you therefore explain what interim steps you are going to put in place from March until May to ensure that we don't see a repeat of previous years, when progress on addressing the backlog has invariably gone into reverse after initial gains? And based on these plans, what is your current estimate of the size of the backlog by May?

Well, this is the benefit of speaking to people—that you get this kind of information. But I would recommend that he speaks to a range of people, not just one person. It is useful to be able to engage with this. He makes an important point, though, in all seriousness. It is important to be able, once these temporary arrangements have been in place, to transition back into a steady state where they aren't required on a time-and-again basis. That is obviously what we all want to see. Nobody wants to see performance being driven by one-off, however substantial, sums of money. No-one thinks that is either sustainable or correct. So, all health boards are required to make sure that they commission on a basis that provides for that to happen.

I'm happy to look into the specific point that the Member is raising with me today, but I will give him the assurance that there is a team of people from the Welsh Government working with the health board to make sure that we understand the planned care position in detail, and to be able to support them in getting those arrangements on a transitional basis back into a more regularised way of working. So, that work is going on already. And in addition to that, you will know that, at the end of last year, I provided a small team of very senior support for the executive team at the health board. They're looking specifically at some of these challenges, and planned care is one of those.

The Cabinet Secretary says that work is going on and that he wants that transition into a steady state to be ready, but, having spoken to people, we know, as I said, that we are nowhere near that at the moment in Betsi Cadwaladr, and that is part of the problem. The heavy reliance of this Government on purchasing external capacity, which of course comes at a premium, typifies the false economy on which this Government's management of the NHS is precariously perched. Needless to say, the next Welsh Government will be inheriting a health system whose ability to manage demand sustainably, without the need for periodic top-ups that drain resources from every other policy area, remains significantly compromised. So, can the Cabinet Secretary say, hand on heart, that the model that he's put in place this year to deal with the waiting lists is sustainable in the long term? And if so, what level of investment will be required to maintain that same pace of reduction over the next financial year?

I think the Member is looking at it from the wrong end, if I may say. The question isn't how much of this activity needs to continue next year; the question is what does the effect of this activity have on the sustainability of the services. That's the question, and the answer to that is that I don't foresee the need, next year, to put in the sums of money that we've put in this year. There is a small number of specialties that have a particular challenge in getting back into balance, but it is a very small number, and they probably will require some additional support.

But let me be clear with the Member, as he asks about funding, funding is important, but if you think about the additional funding that we've put in, it's £120 million this year on top of a £12 billion budget. So, that can never be the solution to the overall challenge. The overall challenge is going to be met by improving performance, not simply by providing additional funding. And that is the situation that whoever is the next health Secretary will inherit—a system getting back into balance, not having to focus so much on backlog; being able to take forward at pace the kinds of reforms you've seen over the last two years; about meeting Getting It Right First Time standards; meeting the number of treatments on waiting lists; using the right technology. We are seeing that happening, and it is making a difference. As the system gets back increasingly into balance, there'll be even more capacity to do that, and so the system won't require the sort of injections of cash to remain sustainable that we have seen over the last few years.

Performance at emergency departments in north Wales is not where I, the public nor the staff delivering this vital service want them to be. We are working closely with the health board, supported by national improvement programmes and clinical networks, and have set clear expectations for improvement.

I'm afraid that that's an answer that you've given almost word for word many times in the past, Cabinet Secretary, when I've raised concerns about the performance of emergency departments in north Wales. And yet, here we are, at the start of 2026, with record poor performance at the local hospital serving my constituents in Bodelwyddan. In the Glan Clwyd emergency department, less than a third of people are being seen within the four-hour target, and a third of people, actually, have to wait over 12 hours in the emergency department. That's not acceptable; it does need to change. One of the things that you have said that you would do is, obviously, to build this new facility in Rhyl, and I welcome the fact that there is now some movement on that. But the number of beds in that facility is insufficient, woefully insufficient, and, in fact, those beds were supposed to be 30, and that was back in 2013, when the plan was originally announced. How can you, with your hand on heart, say that 14 beds in the new facility in Rhyl are going to be sufficient to meet with the massively increased demand since 2013, to alleviate the problems at Glan Clwyd Hospital that my constituents all too often have to face?

The Member asks an important question, and I'm not going to defend the performance as he has set out. I honestly don't mean to diminish the seriousness of the point that he's making, but if we continue to give the impression that what we are building is hotels, not hospitals, the public are never going to understand what we are trying to do with the health service, which is improve services for them. [Interruption.] We are not looking to build the kind of facility that we needed 15, 20 years ago. We are trying to build a facility, and we have committed to doing that, which is fit for the kind of health service that we need today, one which is much more integrated with community services and which therefore requires fewer beds. These are not beds where people are expected to be there for very long. They are there to prepare people to be able to go home as quickly as possible, which I know he also wants to see. Those 14 beds are the equivalent of 220 patients a year, and the equivalent of 4,000—4,000—[Interruption.]. The Member may not be able to hear my answer if he continues speaking, so perhaps he'll allow me to give him the figures that he requested I give him. The effect of that on Glan Clwyd is the equivalent of 4,400 bed days. That is a huge number that is being released by this extra capacity at the Royal Alex. That's good news both for Rhyl and for Glan Clwyd, and that means that it will support the hospital in Glan Clwyd to get back into what I want to see and what I know he wants to see, which is a system of flow that enables the emergency department to provide the level of service that we both want to see.

The Welsh Government is committed to improving the lives of people living with osteoporosis by strengthening fracture prevention, improving access to diagnosis and treatment, and setting clear national expectations for high-quality bone health services. Fracture liaison services are now available across Wales, supported by a national quality statement for osteoporosis and bone health, which is driving continued improvement and accountability across the NHS.

Thank you. Osteoporosis affects approximately 18 per cent of people in Wales, with thousands of others suffering from osteopenia, which is a precursor to osteoporosis. Annually, approximately 20,000 fractures occur in Wales due to osteoporosis. That results in thousands of visits to our emergency departments, cancelled elective surgeries, unplanned operations, a significant economic impact on the NHS, and, of course, a great personal cost to those individuals. The Welsh Government, as you said, Cabinet Secretary, has provided funding to ensure fracture liaison services are available to both try and reduce the number of fractures and improve bone health. Could you please provide an update on how successful you believe the service has been, and what more can be done to improve the lives of people with osteoporosis across north Wales?

Well, as the Member says, fracture liaison services are absolutely proven. We know that they are a highly effective intervention and a highly cost-effective intervention as well, and the evidence in north Wales and across Wales shows they are delivering real benefits for patients. In 2025, nearly 9,000 people across Wales were identified through those services, having had a fragility fracture, and that's meant early assessment has been available, and then, obviously, treatment and follow-up.

I think, in the Member's region, in north Wales, the progress has been particularly encouraging over the course of the last year. In 2024, which is before we provided funding through the six goals programme for urgent and emergency care, as I was mentioning just now, Betsi Cadwaladr identified 198 patients—198 patients—which is around 4 per cent of their expected fragility fractures. They've now put in place, with the additional funding, a much stronger service. They've got dedicated clinical leadership and admin capacity as well as pharmacist input, which is really important, and they're working with the clinical network now, and, as a result, in this year, a little more than a year later—last year, rather; a little more than a year later—they identified 2,000 patients with a fragility fracture. So, that's a huge increase, almost a tenfold increase, and that is the second highest identification rate of any health board in Wales. So, I think that level of progress is really clear.

They're performing strongly on monitoring, and 99 per cent of patients are now being seen within 90 days, and the national benchmark is 67 per cent. So, this is the highest performance in Wales. I think it's important that we give credit where we see good performance. This is a very good example of that. There's an intervention that works, there's funding that has followed, and that has shown that it is meeting patients' needs more and more successfully.

Cabinet Secretary, the best way of improving the lives of people suffering from osteoporosis is to prevent them from developing osteoporosis in the first place. Your genes affect your height and the strength of your skeleton, but lifestyle factors such as diet and exercise influence how healthy your bones are. You can take steps to prevent osteoporosis or slow its progression by eating a healthy and nutritious diet, being active, and taking supplements that improve bone health, such as vitamin D, and giving up smoking and cutting your alcohol consumption. Some people, particularly postmenopausal women, are more susceptible to osteoporosis. With proper screening and education, we can stop many of these from developing a lifetime condition. As I mentioned previously, breaking a bone in later life can lead to an early death. Therefore, Cabinet Secretary, how are you working with primary care to ensure that those at greater risk of developing osteoporosis are properly screened and supported? Thank you.

The Member makes an important point, and I'm grateful to him for setting out, with the authority that he brings to these questions, the advice that he would give to people in that situation. The bone health clinical network, which I mentioned in my answer to Lesley Griffiths, is doing the important work that he says, correctly, is so important. So, it's strengthening its partnership working with primary care, but also with community services and with pharmacy as well. There's a role that pharmacists have to play in this, as he will know better than I do.

The falls prevention and assessment and the osteoporosis community health pathway, which will capture the important points that he made in his contribution, are now in the final stages of development, and I expect to be able to publish that shortly. We've further supported this work through targeted funding to strengthen the role of pharmacists within the fracture liaison service, so that the early intervention that he says is so important, the medication adherence and the long-term self-management for those with osteoporosis is looked at as a whole.

From April, Wales will introduce new NHS dental contract arrangements, which is the first major reform in 20 years. Driven by extensive engagement and piloting, the changes modernise an outdated system. They focus on clinical need, on prevention and on improving access. The new arrangements also introduce a much fairer and more transparent system of payment for dentists.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. I've raised this issue with you on several occasions. I appreciate that you are wedded to these changes coming in in April, but I met dentists through the half-term recess and some of those dentists indicated to me that they hadn't even received their contracts to understand the changes in their practice, yet they were supposed to deliver their response back to the contract on 16 February—that in itself delayed from 2 February, as I understand it. Can you indicate today that all dental practices in Wales have now had their contracts, and can you also confirm—because you alluded to the fact that there had been piloting of these changes, but the dentists I spoke to were completely unaware of any piloting undertaken to ascertain what effect these changes would have—if there hasn't been meaningful piloting of these proposals, surely a delay in the implementation to allow such piloting to take place, so that the full effects could be understood on the dental practices in Wales?

Just to be clear, practically all of the changes have been through some kind of pilot or trial since 2017, and learnings from those trials and those pilots have been directly incorporated into the final model. I think the main component that hasn't been previously piloted is the schedule of fees, and that's a move away from the old three-band payment system, as part of the old units of dental activity contract, into a system of care packages that reflect the actual time that dentists take to perform the intervention that they need. So, that's the fundamental shift in the payment structure; that's the biggest component that hasn't been piloted. But that approach is one that the British Dental Association itself put forward, and that was based on its own national timing study. And that offers, as I've said, a balanced alternative to the old model that we had there, which was incentivising—I think everyone accepts this—unnecessary treatment because that was effectively the compulsion in the contract. So, that will now be replaced entirely, and that's the only element that hasn't been piloted—the only significant element—and that is a BDA proposal itself.

I would say, the Member makes—. It's a reasonable challenge to make. Obviously, when there are changes of this magnitude, people find that difficult and there are systems that need to be changed to do that. I'm confident that we are going to be there in relation to that. We've got the software being worked on; nobody's telling us that they can't supply that software. We've got a fallback system if that should not end up being the case.

The contract information is already available. I will check the specific point that the Member made to me today. I don't know the direct answer to that, but I will check that with my officials. But the detail of the contract has been available for some time. There is nothing that is currently being talked about that isn't in the public domain. I know some dentists are thinking, 'What else is coming?' There is nothing else coming. It's only what's already been published and has been consulted on, and that has actually been based on a series of changes over the last eight years. Some of these are quite well established as parts of that contract already.

I want to thank the Member for South Wales Central for raising this question. I concur with everything that he says and I share his concerns. It is vitally important that we get these proposed changes to the dental contract right. Too many people across Wales simply can't get a dental appointment, can't see an NHS dentist, and those who do are seeing dental charges rising. This will have a huge detrimental impact on oral health in Wales long term. You're just kicking the can down the road unless you get these right the first time. It will result otherwise in more serious oral health and health problems for the people of Wales in the future.

The British Dental Association have stated that children in Wales have more time on their homework than you've given dentists to decide on the practices for their future. From April, the Welsh Government will only allow dental practices to use 3 per cent of their NHS budget to recall stable patients for routine check-ups. Let me explain what that means. For Restore Dental Group, who have 5,000 registered NHS patients, they will now only have the capacity to recall a few hundred, Cabinet Secretary, for routine long-term check-ups. Cabinet Secretary, why do you continue—

You need to ask the question now, please.

—to ignore dentists' concerns? None of the dentists I've spoken to feel listened to or involved in this at all. Getting this contract wrong will have a devastating impact in Wales. When are you going to start listening to dental practitioners who, I'm sorry, have more knowledge on this than you do?

But not more than you do, it sounds like, given the detail with which you put forward that insightful question. Thank you for explaining to me how the contract works. Let me be clear. As I answered in the much more thoughtful version of your question that Andrew R.T. Davies gave me today, there are challenges that will obviously come from introducing a new system, but this contract has been significantly piloted over a long period of time. The main component, which is new, is one that the BDA itself has asked us to introduce, and we were very glad to do that, because it's a much better system than we had before. There have been extensive trials and pilots of all the other key elements in the contract. There's been a long period of negotiation with the BDA. Most of that landed in a good place, some of it was more challenging, which we have discussed in this Chamber many, many times. But the notion that there hasn't been full engagement of the profession, full consultation on the contract, is absolutely not the case. The Member says that this will cause an impact on NHS dentistry; the one thing that'll surely cause a complete elimination of NHS dentistry is the election of a Reform Government.

The Welsh Government’s priorities for health services across Wales, including in the Member's constituency, for the year ahead, were issued to NHS organisations in the NHS Wales planning framework 2026-29. All NHS organisations are expected to submit plans by 31 March, demonstrating how they'll deliver against these strategic priorities.

Cabinet Secretary, earlier you accused my colleague of being misleading, but it's not misleading to restate the facts. Because the facts are that the health board has now confirmed it wants to remove emergency general services from Withybush hospital in my constituency, and that is causing huge concern for my constituents. As Samuel Kurtz said, this is the latest in a long line of services that have been downgraded or centralised further away from the people of Pembrokeshire, and it's not acceptable. It forces patients to have to travel further in emergency situations and undermines the hospital's vital A&E department.

Under sections 26 to 28 of the National Health Service (Wales) Act 2006, the Welsh Government can intervene and stop the health board if it wants to. So, you can intervene if you want to, Cabinet Secretary, and I urge you, as Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care, to do everything in your power to stop this catastrophic decision from being made. Given you didn't answer an earlier question, let me try again: will you now intervene on behalf of the people of Pembrokeshire to stop this decision being implemented, so that they won't have to travel further for emergency general surgery in the future—yes or no?

Let me be clear: I didn't mean to suggest that the misleading comment that the previous Member made was intentional; I'm just making a point about the importance of being clear about what's being proposed. The Member again referred to them as 'emergency general services'. They're not. [Interruption.] You referred to it as 'services'. You referred to it as 'services'. It is emergency general surgery that is affected, and there is already, as he will well know—[Interruption.] As he will well know, there is already less general surgery undertaken at Withybush than there has been in the past, and arrangements are already in place, as he will know, to transport patients from Withybush to Glangwili.

He talks about a reduction in services at Withybush. In fact, we expect to see more planned care undertaken at Withybush, and that is part of a broader reconfiguration of services, the point of which is to make sure that his constituents are able to rely on safer, more effective services, which obviously he wants to see as well. I won't intervene. He understands, I think, that the powers that he's referred to are quite draconian and aren't related to individual service changes. But much more importantly than that, this is a process. I do understand that not everybody will be happy with the outcome. I do understand that; that's in the nature of significant service change. But it is the product of very significant consultation and very large levels of engagement, and, in fact, alternative suggestions from the public. He will, I think, also acknowledge there's been quite significant engagement with those alternatives in how the health board has come to these outcomes, even if he doesn't support them himself.

Cabinet Secretary, I listened very carefully to your response to your question from Paul Davies. Hywel Dda University Health Board, of course, last week, also agreed to proceed with, in my view, very dangerous proposals to downgrade stroke services at Bronglais Hospital in Aberystwyth. Now, under the changes, stroke services would be moved to Glangwili hospital, which means that people would first be transferred to Bronglais, then moved down to Glangwili, which is already, as we know, overcrowded. It is of course important for family members to be able to visit loved ones during their recovery, and if my constituents, say, living in towns like Llanidloes or Machynlleth were to visit Glangwili hospital, it would be a five-hour round trip. The stakes are far too high to get this wrong, so can I ask you, health Secretary, to intervene—and I note the powers are available to you, as Paul Davies has pointed out—to ensure that Powys patients are not overlooked, and that there is access to essential time-critical stroke services for my constituents in north Powys?

I'll just repeat the point briefly. The reason Ministers don't intervene is because a ministerial choice in this place cannot have the benefit of a range of consultations that a local health board has taken into account. That's the rationale for the way that the system is structured. Just in the interests of accuracy, in fact, no definitive decision has been taken in relation to Bronglais. This is one of the examples that I alluded to in my answer to Paul Davies, where two alternative proposals are being looked at to create a new option, if you like, and the health board recognises that will require further work, better consultation and communication on how that might work. There'll be, I hope, an opportunity for his constituents and for him to influence how that might pan out.

The Welsh Government works closely with local authorities and health boards, through the north Wales regional partnership board, to support development of health and social care infrastructure. To date, the integration and rebalancing capital fund and the housing with care fund have invested over £58 million across 35 projects in north Wales.

Thank you, Minister. I was really pleased to see the development of Tŷ Croes Atti in Flint, a 56-bed, three-storey care home providing a blend of health and social care under one roof. And also recently, we had the expansion of Marleyfield House, I think it was about five years ago, with intermediate care beds as well, which are really important, just like having the intermediate care beds at the Royal Alexandra Hospital; they're extremely valuable.

Does the Minister also recognise the importance of the health board and local authorities working together with the Welsh Government to deliver joined-up care to people in Tŷ Croes Atti and all these other sites, to make sure that we have facilities that are fit for now, and fit for the people and the communities that are in that area? 

Absolutely. Can I thank Carolyn Thomas for that supplementary question? She's absolutely right, of course, and I was delighted to get to Tŷ Croes Atti on Monday and see for myself that fantastic new facility. If I follow on from what the Cabinet Secretary for health was just talking about in terms of the Royal Alexandra, this is a brand-new 56-bed unit that wasn't even in the pipeline or even being considered when the Royal Alex was originally being considered. So, yes, there might be fewer beds in the Royal Alex, but we've got 56 beds now in this area. [Interruption.] 

Darren.

So, we've got £58 million capital investment across north Wales in the social care system. It's about those placements, that kind of—[Interruption.]

I can't hear the response from the Minister because there's too much sedentary commentary going on. I would like to hear the response from the Minister.

It's clear, Dirprwy Lywydd, that they don't actually want to hear the answers; they just want to shout. Well, if they want to hear the answers—

I'd just like the response. 

—I suggest they keep quiet and listen to the answers. So, those step-down placements, Carolyn, that you talk about, they are that vital bridge between people leaving hospital and people going home, and taking that pressure off the hospital services, so that they can have a step-down facility where they can recover, they can regain the strength that they need, and the care packages then are put into place ready for them to go home. And we're seeing that happening right the way across the country now.

It's about ensuring that people recuperate closer to home. It's what the Royal Alex is about, it's what Tŷ Croes Atti is about, it's what all of our new facilities are about. It's building care in the community, bringing it closer to where people live. It's what our investment is all about, it's what the work that we've been doing on the pathway of care delays improvements has been about. It's what the £30 million a year investment into building community capacity has all been about, and we're starting to see the results of that. And Tŷ Croes Atti is just one example of a number of these similar kinds of facilities that we're now seeing developing across Wales.

Sorry, I needed to be unmuted. Our all-age 10-year mental health and well-being strategy, published last April, outlines how we will improve access to mental health support. This includes transforming our mental health services to provide same-day access to support and how young people access that support.

Thanks for your response, Minister. You recently stated that young people are now getting mental health support more quickly. Sadly, I’ve been informed of a young girl with additional learning needs where this has not been the case. Due to continual let-downs by Cwm Taf Morgannwg health board, she has no mental health support as CAMHS refuse to engage or follow up on her guardian’s concerns. Due to further let-downs by the local authority, she only has one hour of education per day. Her family has been told that there are no SEND places, and the social workers have been unable to provide the help she needs due to workload pressures. Due to let-downs by her primary school, not only has she waited two years for a referral for an individual development plan, she is now halfway through another two-year wait for an IDP. Minister, this young girl is 13 years old. She has been unable to leave her home for two years, she is now sadly self-harming, and she’s been unable to receive schooling for over four years. Minister, frankly, this is a shameful state of affairs, so what is the Welsh Government doing to ensure no young person like my constituent here falls through the cracks? 

Thank you so much, Natasha, for that question. Obviously, I won't be able to comment on individual cases in this today. However, I'm very happy to follow up on that with you. It sounds like this is definitely going to require that multi-agency approach. I also welcome your question as well, because of course it was Children's Mental Health Week last week, and that theme was ‘This is my place’, and it emphasised that sense of belonging and touches on what you said there, because it's about how we all need that human connection, otherwise it impacts on our mental health and our education and our relationships. I also often refer to our own Welsh Youth Parliament's ‘Young Minds Matter' mental health report, and they said, again, that a lot of the reasons why they struggle with mental health are work and exams, relationships with friends and family, and then also browsing on and being targeted or trolled on social media, another issue I know you're very passionate about.

I did want to say, of course, I'm very happy to take up and look into that individual case, but as of this morning, the December data that's been published shows that the vast majority—that's 94.3 per cent of young people referred to local primary mental health support services—were assessed within 28 days, and with the waiting times target at an all-Wales level being achieved for the last 20 months. But not only that, 87 per cent of therapeutic interventions were also started within 28 days. And at the end of December 2025, all health boards met the assessment waiting times target for young people referred to local primary mental health support services. That does demonstrate significant improvements have been made in therapeutic waiting times following the assessment, with the target being achieved on an all-Wales level in the last two months.

I also wanted to touch on some other key asks that the Welsh Youth Parliament had. They wanted a one-stop shop for information, resources and support, and they wanted more places in the community, local support hubs. I think from what you're saying, your constituent would also benefit from these. I also just wanted to highlight the ‘alternative to admission’ pilot scheme that we funded as part of the Welsh Government, which is now about to be reported on after a very thorough consultation. I've been to the ones in Barry and Cardiff, and there are also spaces in Swansea. These have really been able to show that, with children being able to have somewhere safe to go, adults to be able to connect with, focus and attention, they are thriving, and it is preventing those referrals into CAMHS. I'm really hopeful now that, as you were saying, we have the health boards, we have the local authorities, education, regional partnership boards and the third sector working together so that we can provide those spaces, not only for children and young people, but also for their parents.

I thank the Cabinet Secretary and the Ministers.

No topical questions were accepted today. 

We will move on to the 90-second statements, and the first statement is from Laura Anne Jones.

Diolch. Farmers are the backbone of Wales, so it's vital that we change attitudes and behaviour, and that's why I'm backing the Mind Your Head campaign from YellowWellies. YellowWellies are a small UK-wide charity passionate about turning people's attitudes and behaviours around for mental health, particularly among the next generations of farmers under 40. Because farming is more than a profession, it is a way of life. But it can be isolating, it's relentless and it's uncertain. Some shocking statistics I found include male farmers in the UK are three times more likely to take their own lives than the national average. Farming accounts for 1 per cent of the working population and an alarming 19 per cent of all workplace deaths. In 2024 alone, 47 people in farming and agriculture in England and Wales died by suicide. And my own farming family has been affected by attempted suicide because it got too hard and too much.

YellowWellies and their Mind Your Head campaign remind us that looking after your mind is just as important as looking after your stock. The Mind Your Head 2026 campaign is focusing on education, resilience and compassion. Their campaign aims to break the silence around mental health in agriculture and encourage people to seek support. Suicide is preventable and we can learn the signs, start conversations and stand together. To every volunteer, every fundraiser, every person who picks up the phone, diolch yn fawr. You are saving lives. So, let's leave today here with a promise: to check in on our farmers, to support these vital charities and to make sure that, in Wales, no-one who works the land ever feels they have to carry the burden alone. Diolch to the Farm Safety Foundation and to the brilliant mental health charities that we have in Wales, like the Royal Agricultural Benevolent Institution and the Samaritans. Diolch.

It's been a source of great pride to me to be one of the first openly gay Members of the Senedd when I was elected in 2016, and as we near the end of LGBT History Month, I wanted to commemorate someone who's played a crucial part in the past and the present of the LGBT community in Wales and across the UK. 

Martyn Butler died on the weekend. Martyn was born in Newport and moved to London in the 1970s. As a gay man, he met another Welshman, Terry Higgins, from Haverfordwest. They would go out on the gay scene together, worked at the nightclub Heaven and became friends. Terry Higgins was the first person to be named in the UK as dying of an AIDS-related illness. I had the privilege in my capacity as health Minister of being with Martyn Butler when we unveiled a plaque in Haverfordwest a few weeks ago to commemorate Terry Higgins. He spoke so movingly about the loss of so many friends, the progress on LGBT rights and the developments in HIV care, treatment and prevention.

When Terry Higgins died, Martyn joined with Terry's boyfriend, Rupert Whitaker, to establish the Terrence Higgins Trust, to support people living with AIDS and to work to prevent HIV transmission. Martyn held the very first fundraiser for the trust, spoke at conferences to promote its work, and, amazingly, used his home phone number as the first ever AIDS helpline. He was a fighter for LGBT rights and a champion for those living with HIV and in the campaign to prevent transmission, which bears the name of the Terrence Higgins Trust even today. No-one has done more to tackle HIV in Wales and the UK than the Terrence Higgins Trust, and no-one has done more to support the trust than Martyn Butler. He was a powerful voice when the Welsh Government wrote its HIV action plan, and we owe it to him to meet the ambition we shared to end new HIV cases and be the first country to do so.

Thank you, both. Next, we have a series of motions to amend Standing Orders.

Item 5 is a motion to amend Standing Orders on categories of Members. I call on the Llywydd to move the motion formally.

Formally.

The proposal is to amend Standing Orders. Does any Member object? There is no objection. Therefore, the motion is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Item 6 is a motion to amend Standing Orders in relation to thresholds. I call on the Llywydd to move the motion formally.

Formally.

The proposal is to amend Standing Orders. Does any Member object? There is no objection. Therefore, the motion is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Item 7 is a motion to amend Standing Orders on political groups and groupings. I call on the Llywydd to move the motion formally. 

Formally.

The proposal is to amend Standing Orders. Does any Member object? There is no objection. Therefore, the motion is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Item 8 is a motion to amend Standing Orders on an additional Deputy Presiding Officer. I call on the Llywydd to move the motion formally.

Formally.

The proposal is to amend Standing Orders. Does any Member object? There is no objection. Therefore, the motion is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Item 9 is a motion to amend Standing Orders on committee Chair job sharing. I call on the Llywydd to move the motion formally.

Formally.

It will come as no great shock that the Welsh Conservative group will be voting against this specific motion this afternoon. I have made my group's views clear in the Business Committee's discussions on this issue. We believe that the Chair and Vice-chair model should have been considered first before looking at this specific option.

We believe that committee Chair job sharing will not necessarily result in better outcomes for Senedd committees, or deliver better scrutiny of the Welsh Government. My colleagues and I do not believe that there is any public appetite for this change. We are concerned that Members who choose to job share the committee Chair role may face significant practical challenges with this.

I have been very fortunate to have been a committee Chair, and I understand the pressures and responsibilities that come with that role. In my experience, those pressures would not be lessened by sharing the chair with another Member. In fact, I believe the opposite is true.

There are a number of complications that can arise as a result of sharing the committee Chair's role—for example, determining who signs off correspondence and official documents on behalf of the committee, or who is responsible for chairing specific inquiries and specific meetings. I believe that matters like this could lead to differences of opinion. They could also create a system where a Chair may end up taking on more work than the other, and it could create unnecessary additional work for committee clerks. 

The paper accompanying this motion provides some guidance for how job-sharing Chairs could operate, but it cannot account for the realities of human nature and interaction. As a result, I believe that there will be situations that arise where there could be conflict between the two job-sharing Chairs, and by passing this motion, the Senedd would be creating the conditions for these situations to develop.

Therefore, Dirprwy Lywydd, I urge Members to seriously think about the practicalities and the challenges of committee Chair job sharing. We should be, first of all, considering other, more practical models, like the Chair and Vice-chair model. I urge Members to vote against this motion this afternoon.

Reform UK will not be supporting the job-sharing committee Chair model, for the simple reason that I sat on the committee in the Senedd that did have a Co-chair situation, and I can say from personal experience that I did not find that it worked very well. I found that it could create problems. It could create a divergence of opinion—[Interruption.] If you want to make a comment, Lee, I suggest that you ask to speak.

Anyway, Deputy Presiding Officer, I will not be supporting this because I do not think that it works in practice. One Chair may have a different view to the other. We may have a difference of opinion on workload. Some Chairs might do more than others, and I think that that will create divergence within the committee, which is not helpful. I think that other models should be looked at before we move to this. Diolch.

Just for clarity, James, you mentioned co-Chairs, but this is job sharing. There is a difference, okay?

The Llywydd to reply to the debate.

You have just made my first point for me, Deputy Presiding Officer.

Exactly. To reply to James Evans first, this is not co-chairing, similar to what was done on the COVID committee, but this is job sharing. It is the sharing of the role of Chair. It is also in the Standing Orders that the two Chairs sharing a job would come from the same political group. That requirement is in the Standing Orders. So, it is not the Co-chair model that we are discussing today.

Just to reply to Paul Davies then, and to give some context, the Business Committee had a debate on a number of the points raised by Paul Davies. There were members of the Business Committee who also believed that the flexibility that the job-share model provided for individuals elected into this Chamber, to attract a broader range of people to consider taking up the role of Chair and job sharing that role—that that, in itself, provided additional opportunities and extended that pool of people who would consider themselves as prospective Chairs.

But because this is new ground for us, that is why the Business Committee has decided in the Standing Orders to pilot this for the period of the next Senedd. That pilot will come to an end formally, according to the Standing Orders, at the end of the Senedd. It is also restricted to three committees. Of course, the most robust backstop is that it is the new Senedd elected in May that will ultimately decide which Chair will be elected to chair which committee. If there are candidates that put themselves forward as a job-sharing Chair, and two candidates do so, and if the Senedd as a whole is not persuaded of the fact that that model and that duo can provide the credibility required in the role, then the Senedd will make its decision as whether it will support that candidature or not.

So, for many of the points that Paul Davis has raised—and I recognise their strength as points—there are solutions to those points, and this Senedd will make its final decision. Because what is important, and what we have benefited from during this Senedd term, is that it is the Senedd that elects Chairs in this place. They are not appointments anymore, they are elections of the Senedd. That will be true whether the Chairs job share that role, or whether a single Chair is elected.

So, it's the Senedd's decision on these Standing Orders today, as we vote on them later on, and also on who the Chairs will be for our committees in due course.

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes, there is objection. Therefore, I defer voting under this item until voting time.

Item 10 today is a debate on the Public Accounts and Public Administration Committee report, 'Active Travel in Wales'. I call on the Chair of the committee to move the motion—Mark Isherwood.

Diolch. Active Travel is an integral part of the Welsh Government’s ambition for a healthier and more sustainable Wales. It was therefore fitting that the committee had the opportunity to scrutinise progress more than a decade after the passing of the Active Travel (Wales) Act 2013 and following the work of the Auditor General for Wales in this area. The committee acknowledges the Welsh Government’s response to this report, with every recommendation either accepted or accepted in principle, and that these issues will be for the next Welsh Government to take forward.

The continued use of the term 'accept in principle', however, remains a concern to the committee. The previous Permanent Secretary previously gave the Public Accounts Committee a commitment, in January 2018, to end this practice, in light of Members' concerns that 'accept in principle' did not constitute an adequate response. We reiterate this position. It’s also to be noted that, at a recent meeting of the Public Accounts Committee Network conference on 7 November 2025 in Jersey, which I attended, we were told that such a response was highly unusual or non-existent in jurisdictions across the British Islands and Mediterranean Region of the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association. We therefore encourage the Welsh Government to reflect on this approach. They were actually very, to put it politely, surprised that we were still using what they regarded as archaic practice.

Our inquiry drew on the findings of the auditor general, the work of the active travel board and evidence presented by a range of stakeholders, including from the third sector, local authorities, charities and other public bodies. It was apparent to the committee that, whilst there have been successes with increased investment and demonstrable progress with infrastructure, there remain significant challenges, which are exacerbated by capacity constraints, a lack of robust data to support delivery and a lack of focus on cultural and behavioural change.

The committee was fortunate to visit Slovenia as part of our inquiry to learn about the successes and challenges in a nation of comparable size, wealth and topography. It was clear that, whilst there had been successes there, as well as greater cultural acceptance for transitioning to more active travel means, there were also lessons to be learned about what hadn’t worked. We were privileged to be able to meet Slovenian parliamentarians, active travel experts working in the Ljubljana Regional Development Agency and representatives from a smaller local authority, to learn more about their experiences, successes and challenges. It was clear that successes in Slovenia have been achieved through a blend of local action, supported by the expertise and resources of regional delivery bodies, national non-governmental organisations and experts. Whilst the Welsh Government's goals for active travel are ambitious, it's clear that the pace of change has fallen short of these. The committee heard about the capacity constraints facing local authorities and a mixed picture across the country, with larger, more urban authorities benefiting from expertise and resources not available to smaller, more rural authorities.

These capacity constraints are exacerbated by short-term funding settlements, with very little certainty for longer term active travel projects.  It's also clear that the balance between capital and revenue funding has not been judged correctly, resulting in insufficient resources to deliver behaviour change initiatives that are a crucial accompaniment to capital expenditure investment. 

The committee's recommendation 2 on prioritising multi-year settlements must be addressed with vigour by Welsh Government, or by the next Welsh Government, because without the correct blend of capital and revenue funding, with certainty for delivery partners, the present Welsh Government's active travel goals will not be attainable. 

We acknowledge the Welsh Government's acceptance in principle of this recommendation, and the constraints that preclude them from accepting this recommendation in full, including the challenging budget constraints facing all levels of Government. However, we found that multi-year funding would lead to expenditure being allocated more effectively, and could lead to significant long-term benefits. 

Spending could be more strategic, addressing capacity issues and supporting revenue-funded initiatives that would make the overall package of investment more effective. During our inquiry, we heard about the shift to a more regional approach to delivery through corporate joint committees and regional transport plans. The committee felt that this, if done effectively, would help to mitigate the capacity constraints in some parts of the nation. However, it's still important that the funding is balanced between capital and revenue, and on a multi-year basis. 

As noted earlier, there has been an insufficient focus on behavioural change, and it was felt by the committee that national messaging was required, jointly delivered by a range of public bodies and co-ordinated through the Welsh Government. This needs to be done on a cross-departmental basis, with consistent messaging devised by experts in the field, supported by stakeholders.

Our recommendation 4—this requires extensive engagement and the involvement of local people, from the design phase all the way through to delivery. We were interested in the demonstrator town concept being trialled by the Welsh Government, in line with the active travel delivery plan. We asked the Welsh Government to share the outcome of this evaluation work following the initial pilot in Newtown. 

Recommendation 5—in the event that it's considered to be successful, we felt that there may be justification in expanding the programme to other areas of Wales.

In Kamnik, in Slovenia, we heard about the value of testing interventions on a temporary basis before embedding them more permanently after evaluating their success. This approach led to better community support for active travel interventions, because residents felt involved in the design process on a practical level. The demonstrator town approach could potentially lead to similar success in Wales. 

The committee agreed with the auditor general that national commitments and strategies have not always been borne out in local decision making, primarily because of the aforementioned capacity constraints. 

The role of Transport for Wales in supporting corporate joint committees will be vital and should help address some of the capacity constraints impeding progress, and provide a national impetus for delivery. Whilst Transport for Wales's work in this field remains in its infancy, their role in the future could be transformative and lead to a similar approach as the one we observed in Slovenia, where regional delivery partners, with strong local input, used national expertise to deliver active travel projects. The active travel board should play a vital role in supporting the Welsh Government, Transport for Wales and the corporate joint committees. 

It was encouraging to hear that the working relationship with the Welsh Government, to date, has been positive, and the committee hopes that this will continue into the future. We heard that the Welsh Government is due to review the active travel board's role in the spring and we ask that the outcome of this review be shared with our successor committee—recommendation 1.

We concurred with the auditor general that data collection processes have been inadequate, despite a significant increase in capital investment overall. It’s therefore hoped that the new national travel survey can help address some of these gaps, and it’s vitally important that funding for this survey is ring-fenced to ensure that there is a long-term dataset in place that will allow for meaningful evaluation and comparison.

The committee heard compelling evidence about the barriers faced by vulnerable travellers who, too often, grapple with inaccessible and unsuitable routes. These issues are exacerbated by inadequate consultation practices during scheme design. For example, Age Cymru have highlighted the need for meaningful engagement and consultation with residents, including vulnerable adults and groups representing people with protected characteristics. And the Royal National Institute of Blind People Cymru highlighted a lack of meaningful engagement with disabled people, including blind and partially sighted people, due to inaccessible plans, websites and consultation documents. In order for active travel to be truly accessible, the voices of vulnerable travellers must be at the heart of planning and delivery—recommendation 6.

We recommended that the Welsh Government looks to retrofit existing inadequate routes where necessary, review their design guidance to reflect their concerns and ensure that the approach to consultation is more meaningful in future—recommendation 3.

More generally, we heard evidence from several stakeholders that active travel routes were not always developed in the most appropriate areas. We also heard evidence of new active travel routes that were insufficiently integrated with existing routes or infrastructure, inhibiting modal shift and meaning that well-intentioned new developments were not having as big an impact as possible.

Whilst we were pleased to hear from Transport for Wales that there was improvement in this area, aided by a new prioritisation tool, the committee believes that a re-evaluation of the active travel network maps would identify opportunities for smaller schemes that would help better integrate routes and facilitate the type of modal shift desired by the Welsh Government. This could include reflecting on where routes can be made more inclusive for vulnerable travellers, retrospectively, as noted previously.

Finally, we note that a post-implementation review of the Active Travel (Wales) Act 2013 has been undertaken by the Welsh Government and was shared with the committee this morning. The committee welcomes the review and looks forward to reviewing it in detail at a forthcoming meeting. Whilst we have not had an opportunity to consider the review in detail, of course, yet, it’s good that the review acknowledges some of the problems associated with the monitoring and reporting requirements of the Act, which have led to data gaps. This was consistent with our findings, and it was heartening that the review reiterated the importance of the Wales national travel survey in addressing these gaps. The review acknowledges that whilst progress has been made since the introduction of the Act, it also correctly acknowledges that this is only the beginning of a longer journey.

We thank everyone who took part in our inquiry, and we will reflect on these issues further, as part of our legacy work, to ensure that our successor committee continues to scrutinise progress in this important policy area. The task ahead is considerable, but with sustained commitment by Welsh Government and real partnership working, Wales can achieve its vision of becoming an active travel nation that works for everyone. I look forward to hearing Members’ contributions on this issue during the debate this afternoon. Diolch yn fawr.

I'm glad to participate in this debate. I'm not a member of the committee, although I did submit written evidence to the inquiry, and I think the Chair has summarised usefully the recommendations, which I think are sensible, though a little underwhelming. I think the recommendations of the Audit Wales report and of the PAPA committee were pretty pedestrian, if you don't mind me using that phrase. Given the amount of scrutiny work that's been undertaken over a very long period by Audit Wales, the recommendations were pretty obvious and unambitious, and don't really engage with the scale of the challenge that bringing about the active travel targets into practice presents, because this is fundamentally a project of cultural change, which is difficult in the best of times and is especially difficult in the transport sphere. Why does this matter? To be honest, I don't really give a damn about cycling—it's a means to an end. For me, this is about how do we achieve our climate change targets, how do we tackle the obesity epidemic. And these are high-level challenges, and this is a practical thing that we can do to bring about progress towards both of those goals. But bringing about that progress goes against custom and practice and orthodoxy deeply ingrained over 70 years. And it's been the challenge of the last 15 or so years of my professional life to try and make some progress in that regard. And progress has been made, and the report sets out the increase in spending and the increase in infrastructure provision.

But this is a multigenerational project, and I don't think that the level of the response, either from the committee or from the Government, in its written statement, or in the response to the committee's report, really engages with that level of challenge. And I must say I've been deeply disappointed by the decision by the Cabinet Secretary to downgrade the role of Transport for Wales in delivering this ecosystem. He has a desire to devolve responsibility and funding to the corporate joint committees, which I don't disagree with in principle, but, when you're trying to deliver such a profound programme of change, you need to have levers to make sure that you tackle the orthodox culture present within local authorities. And those levers have been given away in this move and none put in their place, which I think is a significant mistake. And I think it's quite ironic, in the written statement published this morning, which is the statutory review of the active travel Act, that one of the points of progress noted was the provision of an active travel fund. Well, that's been abolished by the Cabinet Secretary, so here we have a statement celebrating its impact while simultaneously getting rid of it and having no real framework in place other than a framework of targets for the CJCs to reach the Wales transport strategy overall modal shift target, but without, as I say, any real levers to hold them to account to do that.

We know from the practice we've seen over 20 years that local authorities really struggle with this agenda, and a lot of the money—. I think I would have a lot of sympathy with some of the critics of the amount of money being spent on active travel compared to the outcomes we've seen, and that's because of the way in which some of these schemes are implemented. We've lost, and never had in the first place, the skills, capacity and capability in local authorities or central Government to develop this agenda. And so, when money is put forward, you often have schemes that happily spend money, but don't really engage with the difficult change needed. So, for example, rather than building a route that takes away road space to get children to school from the nearest estate, which would have a significant impact, very often a local authority would be happier to build a large bridge, which costs a lot of money, but is a prestige civil engineering project, or, indeed, to build a path next to a busy road, because they own the space and they're not going to get as many objections.

I understand this, and it's not to criticise overly local authorities, but that's the reality of the culture in which, the cultural space in which, they are operating, and there's nothing that the Welsh Government is currently doing to challenge that robustly. TfW were beginning to start to do that, and now that's been pulled away, and I think that is a very big mistake, and it doesn't answer the question of how do we achieve the net zero pledges that we have committed to in law. The net zero carbon budget for 2021 to 2025 said that we will achieve a mode share from active travel going up from 27 per cent to 33 per cent by 2030, but the ability to do that has now been diluted by the Government.

So, I'm glad the scrutiny has taken place. It's long overdue. We need to continue to do it. It's a multigenerational project. I'm afraid the rhetoric of the Government and the reality of what they've been doing go in two different directions, and I hope that the next Senedd continues to apply pressure and scrutiny to this important area.

I'd like to thank the committee for this report, and it is deeply concerning that, more than a decade on from the active travel Act, progress towards the 45 per cent sustainable mode target by 2040 is lacking.

Moving towards greener modes of transport, such as active travel, is essential if we are to reach net zero, and it's clear that this Government is underperforming in that area. The report makes it clear that we still lack robust outcome data, and, without meaningful measurement of behavioural change and network quality, it's difficult to assess whether public investment is truly delivering value for money. Public spending on active travel must be strategic and effective. Success should be measured not simply by how much is spent, but by whether more people are confidently walking, wheeling or cycling. Delivering transport through a regional model is welcome to ensure that communities across Wales are linked up. However, I have expressed concerns that the Government moving towards this model has meant that active travel funding is no longer ring fenced, which risks undermining that delivery, and we will be continuing to monitor this as things move on.

The committee is right to call for long-term multi-year funding and stronger central leadership. Short-term funding cycles from all departments in this Government have repeatedly hampered infrastructure projects, increased costs and limited ambition. Accessibility must be central to delivery. As the report says, active travel infrastructure must work for everyone, particularly disabled people and older residents. I recently heard from the Royal National Institute of Blind People about cases where poorly designed cycle lanes have made it more difficult for blind and partially sighted people to safely access bus stops. This highlights the importance of inclusive design from the outset. Ensuring proper representation of disabled people and service users in planning decisions will help ensure that accessibility and sustainability go hand in hand.

Safety is also a growing concern. Research shows that women are significantly more likely than men to avoid public transport due to safety fears. Plaid Cymru has consistently campaigned on this issue, and my colleague Delyth Jewell has brought forward proposals this term to improve safety across our transport system, particularly. Measures including CCTV on public transport, improved public lighting, including at stops and stations, staff training and more consistent reporting systems should not be seen as optional extras. They are essential to building public confidence. Too many people are prevented from using public transport or active travel routes because they feel unsafe.

Finally, active travel cannot exist in isolation. Plaid Cymru believes in delivering a truly integrated transport system. Rail, bus and active travel networks must be linked up and this is something that this Government has failed to achieve. Diolch yn fawr.

I too welcome this report. It's the culmination of a series of reports, starting with the 2022 review of the active travel Act by the cross-party group on that Act, which I chair. That review gave rise to the Wales Audit Office's report and we now have the public accounts committee's view on how we can make a success of the legislation.

It's an Act that is dear to my heart, as I was the Minister who took it through the then Assembly back in 2012. I do believe that active travel should be the flagship of a sustainable Wales. Properly implemented, the legislation is the ideal companion to our Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015, as when walking and cycling displace car journeys they contribute to all seven of the national goals. Ultimately and unfortunately, as all reports on the Act have confirmed, implementation has not been what it should have been. As with all policy interventions, funding is key, and, since 2018, Wales has had a dedicated ring-fenced active travel fund. In the last five years, that fund has reached the annual figure that the Senedd said was needed for us to realise our active travel ambitions—£20 per head of population. As a result of this, real progress was starting to be made. However, that progress, I believe, is now under serious threat. I strongly agree with the committee's first conclusion that the Welsh Government must ensure that future funding allocations for transport sufficiently prioritise active travel. However, I note that, since this was a conclusion and not a recommendation, the Welsh Government has not set out in its response to the report how this will be achieved.

The truth is, Dirprwy Lywydd, that there is now no future guarantee of funding for active travel. The active travel fund is no more, nor is the Safe Routes in Communities fund that was doing so much to help our children discover a healthier way to travel to school. Both these funds have been absorbed into the regional transport funds that will be administered by the corporate joint committees. Those committees, of course, will be faced with huge demands on their limited funds, and I fear that the long-term preventative benefits of active travel, as favoured by our well-being of future generations Act, may not seem as immediately beneficial as fixing potholes or improving junctions.

We are facing a health crisis, a climate crisis, an air-quality crisis and a biodiversity crisis, and active travel will help address all of these in a way few other transport interventions can. Surely, then, the wise course of action is to ensure that this essential long-term preventative funding is ring-fenced and protected from more immediate and sometimes populist demands.

The committee's report makes an important point about the need to complement investment in infrastructure with a behaviour change programme. Unfortunately, after many decades of allowing our transport system to be entirely dominated by the motor car, and of massive advertising by the motor industry to idealise car travel, the simple fact that walking and cycling are healthier, greener, cheaper and often, in urban areas, quicker than driving is not as clearly understood as it should be.

Would the Member gave way?

Absolutely.

Thank you. Just very briefly, on that point, the report recommends, as you say, a national behaviour change programme, and the Government in its response accepts it by saying it already has a large-scale, multi-year programme, climate action Wales. But that is a very high-level, very generic, superficial campaign, and not at all what the committee had in mind in its recommendation.

No. I do very much agree with that, Lee, and I'll come on to that, because I think what we need is something much more local within the national framework.

We need to do much more to promote the benefits of walking and cycling for everyday journeys, and the Welsh Government's response, as we've heard, in terms of the online climate action Wales campaign, is welcome, but it is national. Alone, it's not enough, given that active travel is intensely local. A national website is no substitute for local, detailed information on where active travel routes are, or how long it will take to reach a specific destination when using them to walk or cycle. It is therefore extremely disappointing that, 13 months after the promised date, we have still not seen the publication of the statutory guidance on the promotion of active travel for the purposes of improving air quality, which could do so much to promote the benefits of active travel in a local, targeted, practical way.

Finally—

You need to conclude, please, John.

Yes, I will now, Dirprwy Lywydd. I would like to conclude and concur with the committee in their emphasis on the importance of Transport for Wales's role in the delivery of active travel. Their design and engineering expertise has helped transform the quality of active travel infrastructure. It's essential that they're given the powers needed to continue that work and ensure that active travel investment is prioritised into those schemes that will maximise modal shift and thus produce the greatest benefits for the well-being of the people of Wales.

I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Transport and North Wales, Ken Skates.

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Dirprwy Lywydd, and I welcome the opportunity to respond today to the debate. I'd like to thank Members for their contributions, and, particularly, I'd like to thank PAPAC members for their thorough report, and, indeed, all those who contributed to it. I really deeply value their challenge, their scrutiny and commitment to improving Wales's active travel system.

Today's debate is also an opportunity to share good news, in that the review of the active travel Act was published today, and I warmly welcome and thank Mark Isherwood for his generous words in response to its publication.

Now, a decade ago, there were no active travel network maps. There was limited expertise in local authorities, as we've heard, and there was no strategic monitoring. Today, every settlement has a plan for safe and coherent walking, wheeling and cycling, with nationally consistent guidance, and there is in-house capability in every authority, well supported by Transport for Wales. We've seen infrastructure grow steadily with new routes, upgraded crossings, accessible links, better school routes and improved integration with public transport. Investment and demand for schemes continues to grow and more schools now benefit from safer access and more communities and new routes that make short journeys easier.

But the committee is right: it is right to highlight that we still face challenges. The review also highlights issues around data quality, consistency and pace of delivery. Audit Wales noted that progress has been uneven, that behaviour change requires more than infrastructure alone, and I accept that, and I welcome the committee's seven recommendations, which call for much strengthened communication efforts, integration, longer term planning and improved inclusion. We've accepted the committee's recommendations and our response sets out how we are approaching them.

I also welcome the committee's sharing of information about active travel success in Slovenia and the role that demonstrator towns can have in putting citizens at the heart of active travel planning. We must not lecture, we must listen to citizens.

Notably, we're also aligning active travel fully with the new regional transport planning and funding system. While we're moving away from a dedicated grant, active travel remains at the heart of all four regional transport plans. I'd like to reassure Members that quality will not slip. Every single scheme must continue to follow active travel guidance and Transport for Wales's design support will continue in full in spite of what some Members claimed. And in terms of quantity, far from what has been claimed by some today, the amount of funding for active travel has been maintained under new arrangements. It's always unfortunate, I think, when politicians here don't trust councils across Wales to make the right decisions for their people.

We've made strides in strengthening how we measure progress and support delivery. Since Audit Wales's recommendations, we've created a new footing for monitoring at the national and local level through the new national travel survey and a more consistent approach to local data collection. And together with Transport for Wales, we've put in place national resources as well as training to provide practical support and continued skills development across local authorities. We're updating our active travel Act guidance to strengthen inclusive design requirements, drawing on the evidence gathered directly from disabled people, young people and community groups in the way that Mark Isherwood outlined.

I'd also want to recognise the progress on active travel to schools. Our work with Living Streets, the Walk Wheel Cycle Trust and councils across the length and breadth of Wales is showing strong results, with more children walking, wheeling and cycling to school. The number of School Streets are expanding across Wales, which is a very welcome initiative and it's helping to create calmer, safer environments around school gates. These are the everyday changes that build habits for life.

Now while there is much still to do, we have some solid foundations and we are responding constructively to recommendations from Audit Wales, from the Public Accounts and Public Administration Committee and the active travel board. We're also working closely with corporate joint committees, Transport for Wales, individual councils and the third sector to maintain momentum. We're already embedding active travel into decisions on health, housing, planning, education and climate, and we're focusing particularly on inclusive accessible schemes that benefit those who rely on walking, wheeling and cycling to public transport.

To conclude: Wales has made real progress since the Act was passed, but the next decade must be about delivery at scale, safer routes to schools and public transport, better joined-up networks and a strong partnership at the national, regional and local levels. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Mark Isherwood to reply to the debate.

Diolch. Thanks to all contributors. Lee Waters—forthright, as we have come to expect, particularly on an issue close to his heart—recognised—. Well, thank you for recognising that the recommendations were sensible, if a little underwhelming. You used the term 'pedestrian', cycling an old, relevant term, given the scale of the challenge. On the need for cultural change, hopefully I showed with the evidence we got, particularly from Slovenia, that that needs to be done with communities, because you won't get the cultural and behavioural change if you try to do this on a top-down basis, no matter how good the buy-in from local public bodies. You said that this is a multigenerational project, of course it is. You talked about the need to tackle the orthodox culture in local authorities, but I hope you also recognise the barriers that local authorities identified to us, and the difference in expertise and resource between them. And you called for real levers to hold corporate joint committees to account. Obviously, there's no point in doing anything unless you have proper monitoring and intervention processes in place. The ability to achieve net-zero targets was referred to, being diluted by Welsh Government. That's for the Cabinet Secretary to respond to, I think, more than us.

Peredur Owen Griffiths, thanks very much for your contribution. You stated that the Welsh Government is underperforming in this area and that the lack of robust output data makes it difficult to assess whether the public investment is working—very much endorsing our evidence—and that active travel infrastructure must work for everyone, involving disabled people and older people right from the design stage, otherwise it won't be about everyone, it will be about a certain section of the community to the disadvantage of others. And all of that within an integrated transport system.

John Griffiths understandably highlights the fact that the Act is dear to his heart, because he was the Minister who took it through, as I remember, actually; I was here. The implementation, however, has not been what it should have been and progress is under threat. There's no future guarantee of funding for active travel. Of course, that happens whenever there's an election and a Government change. But the long-term preventative benefits of active travel may not be seen as being as crucial as, perhaps, filling potholes, which of course is also true. So, this is going to be a policy and delivery challenge for the 96 new Members after May. He referred to the behaviour change programme, which of course Lee Waters referred to, and to the cultural change—and I refer you to my previous response—but also the need for something more local within national frameworks, and concurred with the committee's view on the importance of Transport for Wales in active travel.

I thank the Cabinet Secretary for his response. As we would all expect from his Tigger-ish approach to everything, he began with a very upbeat presentation, focusing on the positive—that's not an insult, I love Tigger—and said that investment and demand for schemes continue to grow. That's clearly a positive. He said that the committee is right to highlight that there are still challenges ahead, especially in relation to data, which we covered in some depth. Referring to Slovenia, he said that we must put citizens at the heart of active travel and listen to them. Absolutely. If we don't make this bottom-up and make it entirely top-down, no matter what resource is put in, it won't stick. Transport for Wales is working with Welsh Government to put national resources into local authorities to address the auditor general's recommendations. That's positive, but there's much still to do, as he said.

Are we out of time? We are. So, I'll conclude on that point by thanking everybody again and reinforcing the key committee message. It was apparent to us that, whilst there have been successes, there do remain significant challenges, exacerbated by capacity constraints, a lack of robust data to support delivery, and a lack of focus on cultural and behavioural change. So, it's for the next Senedd and next Welsh Government to focus on that, and that will be captured in our committee legacy report. Diolch yn fawr.

The proposal is to note the committee's report. Does any Member object? There is no objection. Therefore, the motion is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

The next item on our agenda is a debate on the Health and Social Care Committee's report on ophthalmology services in Wales. I call on the Chair of the committee to move the motion. Peter Fox.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I move the report on behalf of the Health and Social Care Committee.

'I'm likely to be condemned to lose my sight by inaction.'

Those were the words of one patient living with macular degeneration who gave evidence to our inquiry into ophthalmology services in Wales. They are very difficult words to hear. Half of all sight loss is avoidable with early detection and timely treatment. Yet, by the end of December last year, more than 78,000 patients at the greatest risk of permanent sight loss were waiting longer than they should for sight-saving treatments. And demand is rising.

Ophthalmology continues to be one of the busiest out-patient specialities, and its services are under significant pressure. During the course of our inquiry, we heard powerful evidence from individuals, and the charities that represent them, about the emotional toll that delayed treatment has on their lives. They described the anxiety and fear of losing their sight whilst waiting for treatment. They also told us about the practical consequences of delayed treatment, affecting their independence and their ability to work, in turn leading to financial strain and mental health issues.

The prolonged waiting times in this area, and the risk of severe vision impairment or sight loss from delayed treatment, were the reason the committee decided to undertake our inquiry. We invited written evidence from stakeholders and held a series of oral sessions. I would like to take this opportunity to place on record the committee's thanks to all those who contributed to our inquiry, and particularly to those patients who shared their experiences with us. 

Our report made 17 recommendations, which highlighted the urgent attention needed to tackle the delays in ophthalmology services and prevent avoidable sight loss. They were aimed not just at the long-term transformation of services, but also at more immediate actions to increase capacity, strengthen governance and improve transparency.

It is very disappointing, then, that in his response to our report, the Cabinet Secretary has accepted only three of these recommendations in full, with the remainder either accepted in part or not addressed directly. I'll come on to this last point later on. Overall, Cabinet Secretary, the committee felt that your response does not address the urgency highlighted in our report, particularly our concerns about avoidable sight loss. Instead, your response focuses more on longer term governance and national transformation, and defers several key decisions, and there is little in the way of immediate commitments or concrete timelines.

The Royal College of Ophthalmologists felt the same way. They said, and I quote:

'the Welsh Government’s response to the report displays a concerning lack of urgency to the huge challenges facing ophthalmology services. The number of highest risk patients waiting for an ophthalmology appointment has reduced by less than 2% over the last 12 months, with most missing their target appointment date and almost 160,000 still waiting for an appointment.'

The Royal National Institute of Blind People was also critical of the lack of urgency in your response, Cabinet Secretary, saying that your response,

'does not address the clinical risk of avoidable permanent harm being caused to patients right now.'

Our report recognises the significant work already under way to reform primary care optometry, and the progress that has been made as a result. However, this focus on optometry has not been accompanied by the same level of attention on the well-known challenges within ophthalmology. We heard of the deep frustrations amongst eye care professionals about the lack of an electronic patient record and referral system, the unsuitability of the estate, and ongoing problems with recruiting and retaining staff. Our report emphasises the significant need for modernisation of secondary eye care to improve patient outcomes and manage increasing demand.

The national clinical strategy for ophthalmology is the long-term blueprint for this work, and the Cabinet Secretary has been clear that progress must be made in implementing the strategy. But the evidence we heard about the critical situation with ophthalmology services and waiting times led us to conclude that a stronger, more outcome-focused approach is needed. That is why our report called for a number of urgent, short-term measures aimed at protecting patients already waiting beyond their own clinically safe time frames. We recommended that the Cabinet Secretary establish a cross-sector oversight board before the election, to track progress with implementation on the national clinical strategy and to escalate risks and delivery.

The Cabinet Secretary, however, declined, saying this was not the best option whilst governance structures between the Welsh Government and NHS Wales Performance and Improvement are being reviewed. The Royal College of Ophthalmologists said this decision was worrying and that it was concerned about the absence of a clearly defined oversight structure ahead of new governance arrangements. Hywel Dda University Health Board felt that without a dedicated oversight board, the Welsh Government risked the improvement of eye care services being restricted and progress hampered. These are strongly worded concerns from stakeholders, Cabinet Secretary. I urge you to reflect on them, as I'm sure you will, and reconsider your decision not to put in place interim oversight arrangements until the new governance arrangements are in place.

As regards investment, we made a number of recommendations, particularly around secondary care investment and workforce training. These reflected the seriousness of the evidence we heard about—outdated and unsuitable hospital facilities, leaking roofs, cramped spaces, and broken equipment. We called for the Welsh Government to commit to a multi-year ring-fenced investment programme for secondary care to match the significant £30 million recurrent funding provided to primary care. Despite the Cabinet Secretary acknowledging that ophthalmology is one of the most challenged specialities, he did not commit to any new investment for secondary care ophthalmology, saying that further funding decisions will follow a baseline assessment of current spend. Cabinet Secretary, significant and sustainable investment in secondary eye care services, where clinical risk is greatest, is essential to improving patient outcomes. Without such a commitment from the Welsh Government, it is hard to see how change of any real significance will be achieved.

As regards workforce, our report highlights that gaps in the ophthalmology workforce are central to the backlog. Our recommendations, which were supported by stakeholders, were aimed at addressing these issues and called for an increase in ophthalmology speciality training places and publication of a strategic cross-professional workforce plan by February this year. The Cabinet Secretary did not respond to some of our recommendations about the workforce, saying that they fell outside the direct remit of the Welsh Government, and that HEIW were best placed to respond to them. We do not consider this to be an acceptable position, particularly given all that we know about the challenges facing the ophthalmology workforce. Cabinet Secretary, we must have a direct response from you to recommendations 13, 14, 16 and 17.

Regarding digital services, our report highlighted the serious problems with delays in delivery of the OpenEyes electronic patient record and an electronic patient referral system, despite an £8.5 million investment. The Cabinet Secretary told us that the system will be rolled out across all health boards by March 2026, but has declined our call to make an oral statement in March about progress. Instead, he has only committed to providing a written statement. Cabinet Secretary, given the ambitious timeline and the scale of change required in this area, I ask that you reconsider your decision and agree to make an oral statement on the subject so that Members have the opportunity to question you on it.

In bringing my remarks to a close, Dirprwy Lywydd, I want to emphasise that strong and urgent actions are needed now by the Welsh Government to provide the best possible outcomes for patients, especially those at the greatest risk of preventable sight loss. I look forward to the rest of the debate, Dirprwy Lywydd. Thank you.

This report comes at a critical time. The pressure on eye care services is increasing, waiting lists are lengthening, and the results of these delays are worryingly concerning for patients. Over 80,000 people are waiting for treatment, the second highest figure for any specialism, and that accounts for almost one in every eight people on waiting lists. And in this field, delay doesn't just mean inconvenience—it can mean sight loss.

The Government has set a target for 95 per cent of patients in the highest risk category, namely R1, to receive treatment within the ideal waiting time. But, as things currently stand, half of all patients do not receive treatment within the target time. In the Betsi Cadwaladr area, the situation is even worse, with almost 60 per cent waiting too long for treatment. That's the reality. And when we remember that 129,000 people are already living with impaired sight in Wales, and that that number is likely to increase to 146,000 by the end of the decade, there can be little surprise that the president of the Royal College of Ophthalmologists has warned that we are facing a growing wave of blindness.

The committee is, therefore, right: we need action within months, not years. But, once again, rather than taking the reins and showing clear leadership, we received yet another weak response from the Government: delay, and leaving decisions to the next Government. For example, they rejected an eminently sensible recommendation to establish a cross-sector oversight board before the election—a simple step, a practical step that should be the basis for a new clinical strategy. Once again, we see the same pattern emerging: no sense of urgency, no clear co-ordination, no robust accountability. They say that there is a need to review governance structures before establishing such a board. But why can't both things be done together? This sounds like an excuse, rather than a reason.

I welcome the fact that there is movement at last on electronic records—an area in which Wales has been behind the curve for years. But we need more than ambiguous verbal commitments; we need a clear timetable and a public update on progress in this area, especially before the election.

Ultimately, however, the workforce is the core issue. We have fewer than two consultant ophthalmologists per 100,000 people. That figure should be three. That's the gap that we have in Wales. That's the pressure. And it's little wonder, therefore, that there are such gaps when money is spent on short-term private contracts, rather than on building the health service's own capacity. That's the fundamental issue: short-term solutions to long-term problems.

The recruitment problems have been further complicated because the previous process, where trained medics would make a specific application to work in Wales, has been replaced by a single system for the whole of the United Kingdom. This has reduced the certainty that trained medics will stay to work here. In reality, up to a third could request for a transfer away from Wales by August. 

So, let us be clear: the waiting lists cannot be resolved without building the workforce. The two things go hand in hand. That's why we believe in a national network of surgical hubs, including centres of excellence in ophthalmology, to develop the workforce here in Wales and to make the national health service an attractive place to work. If we don't build the capacity now, the outcomes will continue to worsen, and it will be patients who pay the price. Thank you.

I want to thank my fellow committee members and support team for their work on this particular report. As we've heard, our overriding finding is the immediacy of the situation. Action is needed urgently to address delays in services and prevent avoidable sight loss in Wales. The national clinical strategy for ophthalmology, commissioned by the Welsh Government, gives us a clear blueprint to do so, and the Cabinet Secretary has accepted the need for robust cross-sector governance and effective management to deliver it.

Recent reforms, most notably the Wales general ophthalmic service contract, are already delivering improvements. Community optometry is a central plank, enabling optometrists and dispensing opticians to deliver services that would have previously sat with secondary care. Similarly, the extension of the certified vision impairment service last June, enabling optometrists to officially certify vision impairment for all types of eye conditions, is a welcome innovation, and it's the first of its kind in the UK.

The Welsh Government investment of £3 million announced in October, on top of the £3.9 million uplift last year, has, of course, helped reduce hospital pressures further still. More than 3,000 appointments per month have moved from hospitals to community optometry, and there's a target of 30,000 additional appointments. Dan McGhee of the Federation of Optometrists and Dispensing Opticians told us that the new contract was supporting more practices to offer services that help to prevent patients from needing to go into hospital, and that this has especially benefited patients in rural areas who might have found it difficult to get to a hospital.

In the Betsi Cadwaladr area, for example, the expansion of community care and the increase in the number of optometrists qualified in independent prescribing is easing pressures on hospital eye departments in that area. And the Welsh Government has targeted the backlog of cataract surgeries too, as part of a £120 million waiting times funding package announced by the health Secretary last June. 

But the delays in hospital-based care cannot be glossed over. Eighty thousand highest-risk patients are waiting beyond clinically safe time frames for treatment, and that is truly unacceptable. It's also untenable, because demand is projected to rise by 40 per cent over the next 20 years, driven by an ageing population and chronic conditions like diabetes and glaucoma. It was also found that uneven access to services is often the case and rurality is a continual challenge.

Marian Williams from the Macular Society provided evidence to us of the lack of support for patients who are required to travel long distances for treatment, describing the experience of patients who had to travel more than 100 miles for injections with very little support for transport. She also said that while some hospitals were offering treatments on weekends to reduce the waiting times—and that, of course, is extremely welcome, and I've welcomed it here many times—there is, of course, in some parts of Wales, a complete lack of public transport at the weekend. Although that offer is very welcome for those who can get there, maybe if we could see a way of addressing helping those who can't get there, that would be particularly useful. I ask the Cabinet Secretary to help those patients to access the transport that has been highlighted to us by the witnesses, and that that be considered alongside clinical service reviews. Thank you.

The Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care now to contribute—Jeremy Miles.

Llywydd, I thank the Health and Social Care Committee for its report on hospital ophthalmology services. The committee's work highlights an area of care that affects large numbers of people across Wales. Demand for these services, as we've heard, is rising due to an ageing population, increasing prevalence of long-term conditions and the need for more complex lifelong management of eye disease. Wales has real strengths in this area. We were the first part of the UK to commit to whole-system integrated eye care pathways. But there are areas where improvement has been too slow and performance must be strengthened.

Before outlining the reforms under way, I want to highlight the progress already made. Long waits of more than 104 weeks have fallen by 97 per cent since 2023. Several health boards have established high-volume cataract hubs. The roll-out of WGOS optometry pathways is releasing secondary care capacity and enabling more timely care for the highest risk patients. The ophthalmology clinical implementation network has delivered all-Wales pathways, standardised job descriptions and surgical optimisation work.

In primary and community care, Wales leads the way. Our services are ambitious and they're forward thinking. The optometry contract in Wales is the most progressive in the UK. It has become a model that other nations are looking to, demonstrating how community-based expertise can transform care.

The move to integrated eye care is now embedded in our planning framework and set out in the remit letter to NHS organisations for 2026-2027. This deliberate shift to community-facing pathways, supported by optometrists with enhanced skills, aims to deliver more care closer to home, ensuring earlier intervention and making sure hospital ophthalmology services focus on those who genuinely need specialist expertise. Our community by design transformation programme is central to this work. Health boards must demonstrate how they are shifting activity from hospital ophthalmology into community optometry. This reflects our ambition to build a sustainable person-centred system aligned with 'A Healthier Wales', underpinned by the future approach for optometry and the ophthalmology strategy, and supported through national governance. All-Wales integrated eye care will formalise national expectations, support consistency and ensure the whole system from referral to follow-up operates with shared standards and accountability.

Llywydd, the committee has also highlighted the importance of digital transformation, and we acknowledge the concerns that have been raised. Digitally enabled integrated pathways are essential to safe care, improved planning and better outcomes, but it hasn't progressed consistently or at the pace that we expected. We are addressing this directly by commissioning NHS Performance and Improvement and Digital Health and Care Wales to lead work on national data standards and wider digital requirements. Cardiff and Vale University Health Board has now completed full deployment of OpenEyes across all ophthalmology sub-specialties, and neighbouring health boards are accelerating their roll-out. Ensuring consistent digital adoption across Wales is a priority.

The committee also highlights fragility in ophthalmology sub-specialty workforces and, again, we recognise this. The long-term solution lies both in recruitment and in rebalancing the system. This means using the full range of skills of ophthalmologists, optometrists, orthoptists, ophthalmic nurses and other professionals. It also means addressing unwarranted variation, whether in access, timely follow-up or in-service configuration, and these principles, again, are firmly embedded in the remit letter for 2026-2027.

NHS Performance and Improvement has been tasked with taking a more directive role where national consistency is required, with a clear focus on quality assurance. To support sustainability, Health Education and Improvement Wales will continue to lead on workforce planning and training expansion while the Welsh Government and NHS Performance and Improvement provide the strategic oversight, accountability and the investment required to secure the workforce of the future.

Llywydd, looking at performance, we've made substantial progress in reducing long waits for hospital-based care and for appointments over the last 12 months, supported by our £120 million planned care programme. The NHS must now sustain this improvement to ensure that people's journey from referral to treatment is swift, consistent across Wales and based on the efficient use of resources. Delivering more care in local communities is key to reducing pressure on out-patient services. New digital tools will improve prioritisation, reduce duplication and support prevention and early intervention, which are all critical to reducing long-term harm.

The committee has set out a range of recommendations, and Members have raised important issues today. I thank you for your contributions and for your commitment to improving eye care in Wales. We'll continue building an integrated, equitable, modern, digitally enabled eye care system. We'll keep producing variation and maintain a relentless focus on safety and quality to improve outcomes for patients. We'll continue supporting our workforce and championing the leadership and innovation shown by the optometry profession in Wales, a profession that has played a central role in placing Wales at the forefront of eye care reform in the UK.

The Chair to reply—Peter Fox.

Thanks, Llywydd. Can I thank everybody who's taken part in the debate today? It's a really important debate, and I know we have people who've joined us who will be watching in today in our new Chamber, as we discuss this. It's such an important area, because unlike so many other things in the health system, when you lose your sight and can't get your treatment, you lose it forever, and that is life changing. If you've got a bad hip or a bad knee, you're in pain and you'll tolerate it, but it's not going to change your life in the way that losing your eyesight can. That's why it was so important that we did this inquiry. I thank all of the people who came in and gave evidence and contributed to the inquiry, because it was so important that we did this.

Can I thank my colleagues on the committee for their dedication and desire to get underneath this? I thank you for your contributions, and Mabon, you reiterated the problems again—how sight can be lost and half of the patients not receiving treatment, and how much worse it is up in the north. That can't continue. We do need that oversight board to make sure we can see real delivery, and highlighting that stark figure that we found in early parts of the inquiry, where we only had something like 1.7 ophthalmologists per 100,000, when the recommended number is three per 100,000. Well, of course we're going to be struggling if we can't find those professionals. 

Joyce, thank you for highlighting the immediacy of this situation and how important it is, and sharing again that we have a clear blueprint to change things through the national clinical strategy. You pointed out some good practice that has been happening—and we acknowledge that—around cataracts. But you also shared how it's an untenable situation to continue as we are, and we need firm action. And highlighting some of those difficulties that patients found in accessing services—having to go, sometimes, hundreds of miles to get their treatment, and our call on Government to help with that, and I acknowledge what the Cabinet Secretary said.

Cabinet Secretary, I know this is a challenging area, and you pointed out some of the strengths and strides that may have been made in this area. Sadly, this isn't feeling like it to the people on the ground who have been waiting those long times for treatment, who are really worried for their future lives and how they will develop. We acknowledge the investment in the work in primary care, but we need to see that matched in secondary care as well. There's clearly a mismatch between those two areas, and we ask you to look again at the recommendations that we've made.

It is important and I know you acknowledge the importance of the digital OpenEyes system being rolled out. I know it hasn't moved as fast as you would like—as fast as any of us would like—but it sounds like we might be getting some progress and we'll see some action on that. The sooner that can be rolled out across all health boards—that will be important.

So, can I thank everybody once again for contributing? And Cabinet Secretary, if you can think again on some of those key recommendations that really taxed us, we would appreciate that. Diolch yn fawr.

The proposal is to note the committee's report. Does any Member object? There is no objection, therefore that is agreed.

Item 12 is the next item, the Welsh Conservatives debate on the NHS and social care. Believe it or not, Peter Fox to move the motion.

I put another hat on for a second. Diolch, Llywydd, and I move the motion in the name of Paul Davies. Llywydd, this motion is about acknowledging something that people right across Wales already know: that our NHS is under extraordinary strain. Every one of us in this Chamber will have constituents who are waiting too long—waiting for an ambulance, waiting in emergency departments, or waiting months, sometimes years, for treatment.

When constituents start describing hospitals as war zones, or say they fear people might even die in a waiting room, as they have actually said, we should all pause and reflect. These sorts of statements tell us something has gone seriously wrong with our health system. It's a fact that after 27 years of a Labour-led Government in Wales, NHS performance remains amongst the worst in the United Kingdom for waiting times and access to treatment. Nearly 750,000 patient pathways remain open. Over 5,000 people have been waiting more than two years for treatment compared to only a couple of hundred in England, and behind these figures are people in pain, pain that has lasted too long. Whilst pressures exist everywhere, after nearly three decades in charge of health policy, it is no longer credible to say this is someone or something else's fault, blaming the previous UK Government or COVID. Devolution brought responsibility, and with responsibility must come accountability.

Llywydd, this motion calls for a national health emergency to be declared, as until it's recognised there is a problem, the focus and resources will not be directed toward addressing these huge issues. And for those here who think we're wrong, tell me: if 12-hour waits in emergency departments are not an emergency, what is? If ambulances queueing outside hospitals because there are no beds available is not an emergency, what is? And if corridor care has become routine, what exactly would qualify? It is about time the Government recognised the scale of the challenge and responded accordingly.

A Welsh Conservative Government would declare that emergency on day one, not as a headline, but as a catalyst to reopen closed community hospital wards and improve patient flow, to urgently review bed capacity and surge provision, to establish a dedicated NHS Wales recovery team focused solely on delivery, to expand surgical hubs and diagnostics so we can finally reduce waiting lists, to improve recruitment and retention so staff feel valued and supported, as our staff are our greatest asset, and to publish a long-term workforce and infrastructure plan so that we are not having the same debate in five years' time. Because, clearly, one of the greatest failings over recent years has been resilience. Too little spare capacity, too little contingency planning, too little focus on prevention and productivity. Even the Bevan Commission has pointed to the level of inefficiency in the system, resources that could be better used to support front-line care.

It's a fact that, historically, this Government has not allocated enough resources to our health system. The Welsh Government, aided by Plaid Cymru, have made their spending choices over the years, which have consequently led to the situation the NHS now faces. For us Conservatives, health would be and is a top priority, the first call on public spending. We have to get our healthcare right before anything else, because when people cannot access timely care, little else matters to them.

Now, Reform will offer anger but no plans on anything, and if they do announce something, it has probably come from ours. Plaid will offer criticism of Labour and everyone else, but no reflection on their own record. But the public are looking for answers, not excuses. The Welsh Conservatives have put forward a comprehensive plan to increase capacity, modernise services, strengthen prevention and restore performance. It is grounded in conversations with clinicians and health professionals. It recognises that staff are working incredibly hard, but that the system around them is failing, and it clearly identifies that managed decline is not acceptable.

Llywydd, this debate has to be about more than statistics. It has to be about dignity too. It is about ensuring that when someone calls for an ambulance, it arrives promptly; that when somebody attends an emergency department, they are treated in a bed, not a corridor; that when somebody is told that they need surgery, they are not left waiting for years. This should not be too much to ask. The people of Wales deserve an NHS that is safe, resilient and timely. They deserve honesty about the scale of the challenge, and they deserve a Government prepared to act with urgency, but sadly we are not seeing it.

Our motion is a statement that the status quo is not good enough and things have to change. It is time to admit the emergency and it is time to put things right. I ask Members to support our motion. Diolch.

I have selected the amendments to the motion. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendments 2 and 3 will be deselected. If amendment 2 is agreed, amendment 3 will be deselected. I call on the Cabinet Secretary for health to move amendment 1 formally.

Formally.

Done. And James Evans next, to move amendment 2. James Evans.

Diolch, Llywydd. I move the amendments tabled in my name. Next week, Reform will publish the much-anticipated and much-talked-about manifesto for Wales, and health—[Interruption.] And health and—[Interruption.] You need to calm down; I've only just got going. And health and social care will be at its centre, and today's debate exposes why it's necessary.

Let us begin with the principle that we'll never allow to be distorted: Reform UK believe that the NHS must always remain free at the point of delivery. And anyone implying that—. Anyone undermining that principle is engaging in deliberate scaremongering and avoiding defending a failing record. [Interruption.] I'll take an intervention, Janet, once I've made some progress.

But the record of this Government is indefensible. For 26 years, Plaid Cymru-backed Welsh Labour Government has controlled health policy in Wales—26 years of appointing health boards that are failing, 26 years of setting targets, 26 years of allocating budget. The system is broken, and it's broken on their watch. The latest statistics are not selective snapshots; they are a pattern. Ambulance response performance has worsened across the median and ninetieth percentile measures for the most serious calls. When someone dials 999 in life-threatening emergencies, they wait longer. And I had a constituent who was downgraded because of a system that's in the Welsh ambulance service. That person has subsequently died.

Two-year waiting lists remain nearly 24 times longer than in England, despite England having around 18 times the population. That is not a marginal gap; it's a gulf. And in a single month, over 11,000 patients waited over 12 hours in Welsh emergency departments. The target for this Welsh Government is zero, yet the Government ask us to applaud incremental progress while thousands are left on trolleys for half a day or more. 

The Government amendment is also a masterclass in deflection. It points to spending levels as if a larger cheque automatically produces better care for people in Wales. Wales may spend more per head, but the public experience longer waits. Outcomes matter more than inputs, and the Cabinet Secretary needs to acknowledge that.

The Plaid Cymru amendment retreats into its usual familiar territory, blaming austerity and Brexit, but health is devolved, governance is devolved, workforce planning is devolved, and service configuration is devolved also. After supporting Labour budgets and propping up the Labour administration here for years, it's not credible now that you pose yourselves as an outsider to the system—a system that you have helped sustain over the years.

The Welsh Conservatives' diagnosis at least acknowledges the crisis, but their treatment plan is superficial. And, yes, Janet, I will take an intervention.

Thank you, James. Although you're sat on these benches, you have, of course, moved on to another political party, but I fully remember well when you stood here saying those same words and you were proud as a Welsh Conservative of the policies on health that you'd helped us to create. Tell me: how many of those policies now will be copied and pasted into the Reform manifesto that you're going to launch next week?

Well, Janet, it's actually quite good that you've made this intervention, because it allows me to raise a point. The policies that I put forward were actually policies that were asked for by the industry, and what I've actually seen is a total rewrite by the leader, Darren Millar. So, unfortunately, I think you need to go back and look at who is actually writing your manifesto—a manifesto of false promises.

Declaring a national health emergency may generate the headlines, but they talk also about building new hospitals. That may sound bold, but we are already facing a huge maintenance backlog across the NHS estate here in Wales, and that's almost running to almost £1 billion. Ageing buildings, critical repairs and outdated infrastructure are not optional extras. What we need to have is promising buildings, ones that are modern, fully operational, because, otherwise, the announcements that the Conservatives are making are theatre and not policy, and they're not delivery.

First, what we want to have is to demand a comprehensive review of governance and leadership across the NHS in Wales. Health boards cannot continue to operate in a culture of missed targets carrying no meaningful consequences. Leadership must be accountable for patient outcomes, not shielded by process or bureaucracy.

Second, we'll call for cutting waste and unnecessary administration, so that funding reaches the front line and every £1 is not tied up in duplication. We'll cut management structures and consultancy contracts to make sure that every £1 that we save is reducing waiting lists and improving emergency care.

Third, we'll insist on restoring patient flow by strengthening community provision and tackling delayed discharge. You cannot fix A&E while beds remain blocked and ambulances queued outside. Fourth, we'll advocate for a realistic capital strategy—not one that's focused on brand-new shiny buildings, but one that clears the maintenance backlog, modernises existing infrastructure, that expands where it's justified and affordable. That's what we will do.

Through all of this, we'll maintain that founding principle that the NHS is free at the point of delivery, no compromises. After nearly three decades of Labour control, supported by Plaid Cymru, who now reach for that emergency rhetoric, Wales deserves more than recycled arguments and compelling press releases. What Wales needs—

James. Time, now, please.

It deserves structural reform. It deserves financial honesty. And it deserves a Government that stands up for Wales, and, after May, that Government will be Reform UK.

I call on Mabon ap Gwynfor to move amendment 3, tabled in the name of Heledd Fychan.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. The Conservatives have spoken a great deal so far about their so-called plan to fix the NHS after 27 years of Labour mismanagement. But let's be clear: this isn't a plan, it's a shopping list—a string of aspirations loosely stitched together with no serious explanation of delivery, no costings, no cultural reform and no acknowledgement of the damage that their own party has inflicted on the very system they now claim they want to rescue. And credibility matters. This is the party that cheered on 14 years of brutal austerity from their colleagues in the UK Government—policies that hollowed out public services and did real, measurable damage. Independent research links post-2010 austerity to tens of thousands of excess deaths, widening life-expectancy gaps, rising child poverty and worsening mental health. This isn't ideology. It's evidence. And it's evidence that the Conservatives refuse to confront.

This is the party that shrugged through partygate, tolerated PPE cronyism and championed a hard Brexit that has driven up medicine costs and piled further pressure onto stretched health budgets. They continue to defend the two-child benefit cap, entrenching poverty, one of the strongest predictors of ill health. They're proposing up to £1 billion of unfunded cuts to the Welsh budget, while voting against an additional £100 million for our NHS. And perhaps most tellingly, their health platform was shaped for two years by a Member who has since defected to Reform UK, a party flirting with anti-science rhetoric and privatisation fantasies.

The Tory plan for the NHS unveiled last week is built on sand. They've dreamed up a reserve service without consulting a single retired professional, leaving us to wonder how on earth the volunteer army is supposed to keep up with modern clinical qualifications and training. They want to call 12-hour waits 'never events', without understanding why these events happen and without providing the resources to fix the problem—just a new name, but no solution.

To top it off, they want to spend more, hiking the health share of the budget well beyond its current 55 per cent, all while slashing the very tax base that we need to survive. It's a mathematical fairy tale that gives the Conservatives the fiscal credibility of a counterfeit £3 note. So, when the Conservatives lecture this Chamber about seriousness, they should forgive us for not being overawed.

But public frustration isn't confined to them. After nearly three decades of Labour stewardship in Wales, we face long waiting lists, inconsistent standards, corridor care becoming normalised and a culture too often defined by firefighting rather than improving outcomes. Between Conservative hypocrisy and Labour complacency, many people have reached a simple conclusion: neither Westminster party has shown itself fit to be the guardian of our NHS in Wales.

That's why our amendment is important. It recognises that austerity and Brexit can't be airbrushed out of this debate, and that neither Labour nor the Conservatives have demonstrated the understanding of the clear leadership our health service now requires. Plaid Cymru doesn't just talk about plans; we publish them. Our report, 'The Welsh Health System: Accountability, Performance and Culture' sets out practical governance reforms developed with senior clinicians—

Mabon—. I know you're in the new Chamber and it's easier to see the Members opposite, but I would like to hear the Member actually contribute and not be drowned out by the voices on my right.

Frustration at the polls, I'm sure.

Our plan sets out practical governance reforms developed with senior clinicians clarifying the remit of the NHS executive, or NHS Wales Performance and Improvement, as it's now known, strengthening pan-Wales leadership for our hospital care, simplifying targets so that they align with resources, and embedding systematic collaboration between health boards. That's how you fix the foundations.

We've also published a comprehensive plan to tackle the waiting list crisis, not through sticking plasters, but by building sustainable capacity. A national surgical hub programme would clear the backlog whilst strengthening long-term resilience and ending Labour's false economy of paying over the odds for the independent sector. And we've delivered. In this Senedd term, Plaid Cymru's influence has secured Wales's first 24/7 mental health crisis hub, progress towards a national care service and over £100 million in additional NHS funding, which stabilised the outlook compared to the cliff edge we were facing. That's the difference between slogans and substance.

The next election will be a battle for the future of our NHS: on one side, populism that toys with privatisation and anti-science dogma; on another, managerial drift. Or we choose a different path: an NHS renewed, publicly owned, free at the point of need, clearly led and equipped for the challenges ahead. If we are serious about restoring our health service to being the pride of our nation, then our amendment is the honest starting point, and Plaid Cymru is the credible choice to deliver it.

I'm pleased to have the opportunity to speak in this debate today and share the concerns of families across Wales who are frightened by what they are experiencing in our NHS and social care system. As a north Wales Member, this debate is timely, as the Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board just posted its worst emergency department performance figures on record. Almost 70 per cent of patients spend more than four hours in A&E, and a third of arrivals spend more than 12 hours in A&E without being admitted. The pressure on Glan Clwyd Hospital could have been relieved years ago had the Welsh Government built the community hospital in Rhyl when they said they would. Instead, they sat on their hands for 13 years and finally decided to act now, conveniently just a few weeks before an election, with a watered-down plan for a hospital with just 14 beds—a fraction of what was originally offered to my constituents. People can see through this con and they know they have been short-changed.

In Wales today, almost 600,000 people are waiting for treatment. That's nearly one in four of our population stuck somewhere on a pathway. More than 5,200 people have waited over two years to start treatment, compared to just 223 in England, with a population 18 times larger. So, if the Member for Dwyfor Meirionydd is comparing that to the Tories in England, why did they get rid of two-year waits during those 14 years of Government and we are still languishing at the bottom of the league table?[Interruption.] Yes, Mark.

Would you agree that the 2013 proposal for the Royal Alexandra Hospital always proposed beds, which would also have included the step-down, to start replacing those they destroyed when they closed the community hospital?

Yes, absolutely, Mark. Yes, it was originally 30 beds and it was closed in 2009 for, supposedly, fire hazard reasons, but those findings weren't endorsed by North Wales Fire and Rescue Service, and they did the same at Denbigh infirmary, where they closed 13 beds, to my memory, for the same reasons, and those weren't identified either by north Wales fire service. And the human cost is devastating. [Interruption.] Yes, I will take an intervention, yes.

Do you accept that, during Tory rule and austerity, we've seen life expectancy decrease and 30,000 excess deaths as a direct consequence of Tory-driven austerity? 

Well, I'm quoting waiting time figures, which is obviously pertinent to this debate. You've decided to talk about public services in general. I'm sticking to the subject of the tabled debate.

So, our freedom of information request revealed that almost 40,000 patients died while waiting for treatment since the 2021 Senedd elections. We are talking about parents, partners and grandparents who never made it to the front of the queue. The former health Minister, now First Minister, pledged to eliminate two-year waits by March 2023, and again by March 2024. Both promises were broken, and waits are still rising.

People are asked why the Welsh Government bothers to set targets, because I can't think of a single one that they've actually met. In A&E, the target is that 95 per cent of patients should be seen within four hours, and the reality is just 63 per cent, with over 11,000 people waiting more than 12 hours in a single month. Ambulance red call response times are now the worst on record. Cancer treatment's performance is failing, not improving, but the Welsh Government's priority has not been to fix the NHS, it's been net-zero virtue signalling and constitutional tinkering. How Welsh Labour thinks it's appropriate to call for greater powers to be devolved to this Senedd when their performance on core issues like health is poor just beggars belief for me.

Even doctors agree that the system is in crisis, with the BMA council chair, Dr Tom Dolphin, saying last year that health services across the UK are in deep crisis, but here in Wales the crisis is sharper and longer lasting.

The solutions being put forward by other parties are not providing much reassurance. Reform UK have no serious plan, they have platformed anti-vaccine conspiracy theorists and quackery. Every policy they do announce gets contradicted five minutes later by one of their other spokespersons. They've offered no solution to the healthcare emergency in Wales. And Plaid Cymru want independence, which would rip £21 billion a year out of the Welsh public finances, while promising a national care service they have no idea how they will fund.

Deputy Llywydd, Wales deserves a serious recovery plan and that's why the Welsh Conservatives have published our health manifesto, which offers serious and practical solutions to fix what is broken: declare a national health emergency to drive urgent action; reopen closed community hospital wards to free up beds and speed up discharge; expand surgical hubs and diagnostic capacity; end corridor care; and recruit and retain staff with proper workforce planning, not empty slogans.

We'd also cut the red tape strangling front-line care. The Bevan Commission, as Peter Fox has mentioned, showed that up to 30 per cent of NHS resources are wasted on what staff call silly rules, duplicated paperwork, outdated IT systems and approval chains that delay decisions. Nurses and doctors are spending hours filling out forms instead of treating patients. Tackling issues like this may make a huge difference and would free up clinicians to spend more time with patients.

Labour tell us this is the best they can do, but if this is Welsh Labour at their best, I don't want to see them at their worst. After more than 26 years of a Labour Welsh Government—

Twenty-seven.

—propped up by Plaid Cymru—27, I should say, thank you, Janet—propped up—

You need to finish now, Gareth, please.

—by Plaid Cymru and the Lib Dems, we've been left with a health service that's completely crippled by incompetent leadership. The Welsh Conservatives offer a clear choice; we are not offering pipe dreams like Plaid Cymru, and, unlike Reform, we actually have a clear, practical plan to fix the health service and get it working for the people of Wales. Thank you very much.

Another week, another Conservative debate on the NHS. The same recycled lines, the same tired talking points. We need to stop talking our wonderful NHS down. There are many people that are receiving good care in our NHS, and if we want to recruit and retain doctors, nurses and allied health professionals, we must value them, back them and speak with pride about the service that they provide to everybody. That is how we keep wards open, that's how we need to keep our NHS functioning.

In north Wales, our health board is one of the most important employers. It's working with the north Wales tertiary alliance and our medical schools to create clear pathways into employment, training local people, retaining talent and strengthening services for the future.

I am proud that we have passed a Welsh Labour budget that invests in front-line services, in local government and in health. The Conservatives and Reform voted against it. Had that budget not passed, we would have faced more uncertainty and the continuing austerity that we had before. Ninety per cent of the Welsh Government's budget goes on public services, and 55 per cent goes on health spending. It's around 9 per cent more per person on health than in England. If the UK Conservatives had remained in Government, Wales would have been billions of pounds worse off because of austerity continuing. Reform too repeat the familiar claim that more efficiencies can be made, but you cannot cut your way to better health care.

Thankfully, we now have a change of direction, a UK Labour Government that believes in public services, which is working with the Welsh Labour Government to bring down waiting lists and provide much-needed funding into Wales. And thanks to that investment from the new Labour Government and the Welsh Government's £120 million plan, waiting lists for planned care have fallen for seven consecutive months. Two-year waits are at their lowest since February 2021.

After the pandemic, some pathways had stretched as far as seven years. It's taken a while to bring them down. Now people tell me their operations have been brought forward; they speak about pain relief clinics, physiotherapy and national exercise referral schemes that are genuinely transforming their way of life. These are really positive stories.

On Monday, I was delighted to welcome further investment in the Royal Alexandra Hospital. With planning permission now secured, thanks to Denbighshire County Council, completion expected next year, it's actually going to happen. Thanks to its modular design, it will be able to accommodate up to 20,000 A&E visits a year, helping to ease pressure on Ysbyty Glan Clwyd. It will include an expanded dental unit and x-ray department and 14 intermediate care beds, equivalent to 220 patient stays per year, or around 4,500 bed stays. We also have, as was mentioned earlier, the new Flint care home, Tŷ Croes Atti, and 56 care beds in the community where we need them.

For too long, progress was held back by the shackles of Conservative austerity, rising inflation following the Truss budget and the unprecedented strain of the pandemic that can't be ignored. But now, with additional capital funding from the UK Labour Government, a Welsh Government committed to investment and partnership with the Labour-run Denbighshire council, we are seeing what can be achieved when Governments work together.

Alongside this, the new orthopaedic hospital in Llandudno will open in April, which is part of a £62.5 million investment with those two schemes in modern facilities for north Wales. I recently visited the cancer research unit in Bangor, where groundbreaking work on new therapies is under way. Researchers spoke warmly about how welcome the new medical school in Bangor has been, strengthening collaboration, attracting talent and building a pipeline of future clinicians.

In north Wales, we have 24-hour district nursing, working in partnership with Marie Curie as well, so that's about making sure people are cared for in their own home. This is something I learned on Monday. There's also been a £10 million investment in cancer care at Ysbyty Glan Clwyd, which has been awarded the Tessa Jowell Brain Cancer Mission 'centre of excellence' status, a mark of the highest standards in patient care and research.

And we're investing in people as well as buildings: the new medical training school for allied health professionals in Wrexham is opening doors for those choosing a new path. I've seen personally my own niece change her career from being a school administrator to training to be a mental health nurse. She describes it as challenging, yes, but deeply rewarding and fulfilling. She's really pleased she's made that change.

This is what happens when we choose investment over decline, partnership over division, and pride over pessimism. Our NHS is not perfect, but it's precious, it's worth defending, and we've got to carry on investing in it. Thank you.

I don't know about the rest of the Siambr, but I'm getting a feeling of déjà vu, and you're quite right, Carolyn: it is us, the Welsh Conservatives, who regularly bring debate, scrutiny and challenge to this Welsh Labour Government about the appalling health service that we still have here in Wales. And I am not talking about the doctors, the nurses, the cleaners or anything like that. They are fantastic, working. And do you know? I get representations from them, Dirprwy Lywydd, about how bad the working conditions are in the health board in my constituency.

We've have been here so many times before, debating the dire state of the Welsh NHS, calling out Labour. It is you who have presided over 27 years of failure, with patients paying the price for Labour's ineptitude, and nothing has changed. And I can't let Plaid Cymru off the hook here, because you've supported all the budgets. You've have worked in coalition, you've actually been in Government for some of those years. [Interruption.] Well, you mention Margaret Thatcher regularly and she was 40 years ago.

It should not be the case that the public has become numb to the depressing fact that Wales has the longest waiting times for treatment of all four UK nations; a lack of hospital beds; and 12-hour—God, you're lucky if it's 12 hours in Ysbyty Glan Clwyd. I hear regularly of it being 48 hours, or 72 hours even, I've heard from constituents. People are coming out almost with bed sores after being on chairs all that time. And A&E waits have made corridor care the norm and not a 'might happen'. Since the last Senedd election, almost 40,000 people—and I was the one who put the first FOI in asking how many people had died on treatment waiting lists, and that figure was 8,500—but across Wales almost 40,000 people who have been waiting for treatment have died.

The former Labour health Minister failed to meet her own targets on waiting lists and is now the First Minister of Wales. So, we do know that failure is no barrier to progression in Welsh Labour. But the people of Wales should not and will not accept failure in our health service any more.

It won't be easy, but the Welsh Conservatives will fix the mess that Labour will leave behind in May, as we will prioritise getting our health system working as it should for Wales and our long-suffering constituents. We are the only party with a credible plan to fix the Welsh NHS. So, whatever you're bringing forward next week in terms of your party, James, I don't believe it. Our long-term workforce and infrastructure plan will modernise the NHS and social care system in Wales like never before.

We will immediately declare a health emergency and take action to overhaul the Welsh NHS to create more hospital beds to replace the 4,000 that have been lost that wouldn't have been lost under a Welsh Conservative Government. We will create community hospital wards to improve patient flow into hospitals, and we will end corridor care to get the 580,000 people who are currently awaiting treatment the care they desperately need. And I am really proud, and I said this at our Welsh Conservative conference a few days ago—

Will you take an intervention, Janet?

Yes, just let me say this. I support wholeheartedly the BEDS campaign—a campaign that is led by medical professionals. We will listen to the experts to put things right, putting patient care back at the front and centre of the NHS, instead of unachievable energy net-zero targets and virtue signalling policies that have taken much-needed funds as well as our doctors and nurses away from the front line. 

Thank you, Janet. It was just on the point you were making about corridor care. When you were mentioning that in your remarks, Members were moaning and groaning from other benches. Does that show to you just the lack of ambition that some parties have to reduce corridor care and end it, and an acceptance of actual failure, that the Welsh Government are actually issuing guidance on corridor care?

Yes, I acknowledge that. And what really annoys me is when we have these debates and there's all this denial. You are in denial. In two weeks' time, somebody else from one of your benches might bring forward some concerns about healthcare, but won't support us when we have a plan to solve it.

The British Dental Association are unhappy with the new dental contract. They feel they've not been heard. Less than 5 per cent of dentists feel that the contract is even workable. My Welsh Conservative colleagues have frequently called out the flaws—[Interruption.]—with the new dental contract and for the concerns of the BDA to be addressed. We support their calls to properly fund the dental contract.

Wales is tired of coming last when it comes to public services and is tired of a broken NHS, with health boards in special measures being standard. We deserve, and so do our constituents, so much more than the consistent failure in health—

Janet, you need to conclude now, please. 

—that we've had under the current administration. Vote Welsh Conservative on 7 May, and before that by postal vote. Diolch yn fawr.

Did you know that in Powys no-one is waiting more than two years for treatment? Did you know that? Did you know, also, that nobody is waiting more than a year for a first out-patient appointment? That's a claim that's repeatedly made by the health Secretary, who has made that claim over the past 12 months. Well, it's fantastic news, isn't it? It's very impressive—almost unbelievable. In fact, if I were the health Secretary, I would want to be presenting those headline statistics as well.

But there's a problem. None of it's true. It's a false claim. It's not just misleading; it's blatantly inaccurate. What is the truth? The truth is here. I got a letter from Powys health board yesterday. The truth is, as Powys health board set out, that there are hundreds of people waiting more than one year for their first out-patient appointment, and for over two years for treatment. But more bizarrely, the Welsh Government knows this themselves as well.

I put a written question in to the health Secretary earlier this month. I asked how many people have been waiting longer than a year for their first out-patient appointment and over two years for treatment. The Minister responded:

'there were no patient pathways provided by Powys Teaching Health Board waiting longer than one year for a first outpatient appointment or two years for NHS treatment.'

He then goes on to say:

'Some pathways for Powys residents are provided by other health boards in Wales'

and

'there were 40 pathways for Powys residents provided by other health boards which were waiting longer than one year for a first outpatient appointment, and 185 waiting longer than two years for treatment.'

The health Secretary, I can hear, is saying that this is not news. Well, why do you make misleading statements, then? Get your act together, health Secretary. It is terribly disrespectful to those people who are waiting on a waiting list. The health Secretary finishes his written statement by saying this:

'Some Powys residents have pathways provided by NHS England trusts. The Welsh Government does not hold data on these pathways.'

So, the Welsh Government is celebrating that no-one is waiting for over two years for treatment, and at the same time admitting they don't actually know how many people are waiting for treatment, which raises another point: why don't you know that? You are funding Powys health board to run health services in Powys. Surely you should know how many residents in Powys are waiting for treatment, and where they're waiting, and how long they're waiting for. You should know this to inform policy. But worse than that, not only do you not know that, you're then making the claim that nobody's waiting more than two years, which is an inaccurate claim.

When I raise this with the health Secretary, he responds that I and other Members are expected to know that when he makes these claims, he's working on a different data set, and he's explained this many times. I understand that. But you do not recognise that Powys does not have a district general hospital of its own, and when you're making these statements, and you say that I should understand this—. You are making, Cabinet Secretary, this claim in Government press releases, and you have been for the last 12 months, to the public; not to Senedd Members, to the public—

It's true.

It is true, yes—thank you for acknowledging that—but you don't give any context. You make that statement without providing any wider context.

And bizarrely, when I raise it with the business manager, I'm the one that has to be careful on the language I'm using. It's the Government that's providing misleading statements, not me. If the health Secretary wants me to stop sounding like a broken record, I would say this: apologise, correct the record, and commit to providing accurate statements in the future. All you need to do, health Secretary, if you want to continue providing the data set as you are, is to just provide the wider context that your figures do not include the fact that many people are waiting in other health board areas in Wales and in England.

Please do not play with statistics, because behind every statistic there's a person, often waiting in pain. It's deeply disrespectful to the hundreds of people who are on a waiting list to hear such misleading claims, and it shows that the Welsh Government does not have a sufficient understanding of Powys health board as a health board without a district general hospital.

It remains disappointing that the Welsh Government does not recognise the dependence of Powys residents on hospitals in England in their statements, their performance data, or in the way that they provide funding and how funding is allocated to reduce waiting times. I hope that I'll get a proper response from the health Secretary in making his closing comments, and that he will accept that, in future, he will make sure that statements are made with context and accuracy.

What a bit of fun for a Wednesday afternoon, eh? A little bit of back and forth, a little bit of debate and banter. Because it shouldn't be fun. We're talking about people's lives here. We are talking about statistics, and behind each statistic is an individual waiting in pain, waiting with a loved one in pain for that treatment that they require.

I'd like to start, Dirprwy Lywydd, by dispelling some of the myths and thanking NHS staff and everybody that works within our NHS for the immense work that they do. We're often criticised that we're doing down Wales, we're doing down the NHS. No, quite the opposite—we want Wales and the NHS to be better than it is. We want ambition, to see it improve, not do it down and always focus on the negatives. The problem is the only things we can ever focus on, because there are so many of them, Dirprwy Lywydd, are negatives. We're at the bottom of every league table, be that in the NHS, in education, and in the economy.

But I do not think Wales has an NHS anymore. It has seven health boards doing things differently, each one doing things on its own accord. The Cabinet Secretary and previous Cabinet Secretaries have always highlighted that it's up to health boards to deliver the services—'We are the ones just providing the policy framework in which they deliver it.' I think that's nonsense now. I think it's become quite apparent that the system in which the NHS is being redistributed under 27 years of Labour rule is, quite frankly, bureaucratic and messy. Because where does the accountability lie?

A gentleman has sent an FOI in, in which he has cc'd myself and my colleague Paul Davies, asking how on earth do we get rid of those who are serving in our health boards, who are leading those health boards. Because there's no accountability there. You then come to an election time, and you vote for a Government that you want in power. That winning party then puts a Cabinet Secretary for health in, and then they stand up and say, 'Well, it is not up to us. It is the health boards who deliver the services.'

That brings me to the pertinent point as to what is happening in west Wales at the moment, with the redistribution—. No, sorry, not redistribution, the centralisation of services away from Bronglais and, once again, away from Withybush Hospital. Like every family in Pembrokeshire, I have a link with Withybush Hospital. I was born there, my brother was born there, both my grandparents passed away there, and that hospital has kept my mother and father alive. So, I owe a debt of gratitude to that hospital, and I will never be patronised by a First Minister or be told that I'm spreading mistruths or being whatever the word she used to describe it, that we're scaremongering, when we're standing up for the constituents, the very same constituents that she too was elected to represent.

Then there's the irony of announcing these brand-new facilities in north Wales and, in the same breath, saying 'bringing services closer to the communities', when only days earlier Hywel Dda was talking about centralising services away from communities into a hospital that is no longer fit for purpose at Glangwili. I know Glangwili. It's in my constituency. It's old, it's outdated, it's overcrowded, and it's just not fit for purpose in the system that it's in. So why is it that this health board has been given carte blanche by this Government, by a Cabinet Secretary for health, to proceed with a policy of centralisation of services into a hospital no longer fit for purpose? Where does the accountability lie? That is a question that no-one has an answer for.

I’m so frustrated, once again, that when we have NHS debates, it's used as a political football, back and forth. Yes, we know we're in the election season. I think Lloyd Warburton is counting down on Twitter how many days there are to go—71 days to go. People are fed up now of politics and the NHS being used as that political football. Because, as we've said, it is life and death, Dawn. This is life and death. The Minister is laughing here. The Minister is laughing on a point of life and death. This is what's so frustrating.

I came into this place in 2021 thinking if a good idea is a good idea, perhaps in a small Senedd of only 60, it might be picked up and said, 'Do you know what? Actually, that’s a good idea and we can progress that.' We, in our 2021 manifesto, had surgical hubs as a manifesto commitment. Mabon stood up earlier and said they’ve got a brand-new idea of surgical hubs. We had that in 2021. Why did it take so long for this Government to introduce surgical hubs when they were brought forward by a UK Conservative Government to get rid of the backlog after the pandemic? A good idea is a good idea regardless of where it comes from, so why don't we focus on good ideas rather than the politic of it? Because at the end of the day, this is people's livelihoods, life and death, and families are now fed up of all this back and forth. Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. 

I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care, Jeremy Miles.
 

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. I welcome this opportunity to put on record once again the progress that we have made during one of the most challenging periods in the history of the health service.

Five years ago, after the last election, we were still in the midst of the pandemic. There were strict rules in place on disease control, and wards in intensive care were full of people suffering COVID-19. The pandemic has had a long-term and permanent impact on the health service and its staff. The service is still recovering today from the impact of the steps we took to ensure that we could actually deal with the greatest pandemic since the Spanish flu.

In the past five years, we have suffered a cost-of-living crisis as a result of constant high inflation and the terrible efforts of Liz Truss in her budget and her gambling with the economy. The Tories' careless control of public funds actually deprived the health service of crucial investment. It was only after the Labour Government came to power in the UK two years ago that the situation was resolved. [Interruption.] Of course.

You set out a situation and explain in your opinion why waiting lists and this situation have come about, but, of course, the situation has been the same in Scotland, England and Northern Ireland. Why, therefore, is the situation worse in Wales?

I will go on to explain the situation in Wales and what we are doing about it.

As the pandemic abated, the call on health services has increased. Complex diseases and mental health problems have all contributed to a set of challenges that are constantly changing within our health service, and our health service has to cope with them.

Despite the unprecedented pressure and the Tories' pressure on public spending, we have safeguarded spending on health. Wales spends 9 per cent more per capita on health than England, and funding decisions in Wales reflect the priorities of Wales. We have chosen to safeguard general services, free prescriptions and health and social care planning in an integrated manner. We have safeguarded surgical capacity and have invested in that. That includes a new surgical centre worth £29.4 million in north Wales that will provide 1,900 surgeries per year when it opens in April. 

We have secured funding for the new regional diagnostic centre at Llantrisant Health Park. A new cancer centre in Velindre will be completed by spring of next year, and £38 million has been invested in the satellite radiotherapy centre at Nevill Hall Hospital. Now, orthopaedic services have been allocated for the south-west, and orthopaedic beds designated to the Princess of Wales Hospital have supported over 1,000 operations since September. We have invested £13.9 million in a second PET scanner in Singleton Hospital, and funding has been allocated for a new PET scanner at Ysbyty Glan Clwyd.

Dirprwy Lywydd, over the last year, we have intensified our focus on reducing the longest waits as part of our £120 million plan, and on improving system flow. This is delivering results. Two-year waits have fallen significantly to their lowest level since February 2021. In some specialties, the longest waits have been cut by more than half in a single year. The overall waiting list has fallen for seven months in a row. The number of—[Interruption.] Certainly.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. You made reference to the £120 million to help reduce waiting times last year. I note that that has been allocated across different health boards—Aneurin Bevan £15 million, Betsi Cadwaladr £24 million, Cardiff and Vale £20 million. Powys health board had just £115,000. That is 0.1 per cent of that £120 million. Can you explain why that is?

As the Member has mentioned himself in several other interventions and contributions, Powys does not have the full breadth of services that other health boards deliver in Wales, and therefore the contribution that they require to meet their targets is going to be less, inevitably. [Interruption.] Of course.

Do you accept, though, that the health board still has to pay other providers, whether in England or in Wales, for that service, so surely that should be recognised?

It is indeed recognised in the funding that we do provide to them.

in the funding that we do provide to them. I'll make further progress, Dirprwy Lywydd, if I may. The overall waiting list has fallen for seven months in a row. The number of people waiting for NHS treatment is at its lowest level in almost three years. Just over 322,700 people are waiting more than a year for their first out-patient appointment—the lowest level since September 2020. Several health boards have successfully focused action on hospital discharge and patient flow. In planned care, we're delivering more treatments a month than at the same point last year. A huge amount of work is being done by an army of dedicated NHS staff working through the week, at weekends and in the evenings; and I thank them all. Are we where we want to be? No. Are we moving in the right direction? Yes. We continue to support the NHS to make long-term changes by increasing theatre productivity, collaborating regionally, harnessing innovation, streamlining referrals and out-patients and making better use of independent sector capacity where it's appropriate.

Now, we've heard the inevitable calls today that a health emergency must be called. All slogans, no substance. It's shallow Tory performative politics at its worst. The question is not whether there are pressures—[Interruption.] It is a slogan. And then we heard the contribution from the anti-NHS Reform Member. James Evans sat on these benches for years calling for a health emergency; no sooner had he fallen into the  arms of Nigel Farage that he claimed to have been told to say it by other Conservatives. I'm put in mind of what barristers say in courtrooms when they have a dodgy witness on the stand—'Was he lying then or is he lying now?' [Laughter.] The question is not whether there are—[Interruption.] Yes, certainly, James.

You said I was anti-NHS. My family work in the NHS. I care deeply about the NHS. Please reflect on those comments; they're absolutely disgusting.

The point I'm making, as Members here will recognise, is that this Member stood on these benches calling for one policy and then moved a seat across there and said he never believed in that policy. The point I'm making is that it's difficult to give any credit whatsoever to any claims of support for the NHS from the Reform Member in light of that.

The question, Dirprwy Lywydd, is not whether there are pressures—the same pressures that are being felt across the UK—it's how we respond to them. And our response has been to invest in people, in the service and in new models of care that move more support closer to home—just as we were discussing in the debate about the Health and Social Care Committee report on ophthalmology services earlier.

We've grown the workforce to the point where there are record numbers of people working in the Welsh NHS. Since 2021, we've also increased training places for doctors, nurses and allied health professionals. We've supported international recruitment, whilst strengthening domestic training pipelines. We've implemented new retention initiatives and flexible working policies to keep experienced staff in the service. That matters. Because behind every statistic is a professional doing their utmost for patients. They deserve our respect, our thanks and our support. We've also reformed how care is delivered to support people to live well in their own communities with the support they need as close to home as possible.

Dirprwy Lywydd, performance is not just about waiting times, it's about outcomes and it's about equity. Wales continues to deliver high-quality care in many, many areas—vaccination uptake, screening participation and primary care access for urgent needs. Since 2021, we've restored and expanded screening programmes disrupted by COVID.

Health outcomes in Wales are closely linked to deprivation. Since 2021, we've aligned health investment with our broader commitments on tackling poverty, improving housing and supporting social care. Yesterday, I announced the next steps in our Marmot nation. Merthyr Tydfil, Denbighshire and Neath Port Talbot will be early adopters of the Marmot principles to tackle health inequalities. The three councils will receive a package of funding over two years to develop health equity systems and spread good practice.

Dirprwy Lywydd, I've always been clear with the NHS about what it needs to do to improve timely and safe access to care. But our approach is to do that by always providing it with the support, the resources and the encouragement it needs to improve. We will champion the excellent and spread the good work that happens every day in every part of our health service all over Wales. And we'll continue to do that with those who know their service best—the staff, its patients and our local communities.

I call on Tom Giffard to reply to the debate.

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Dirprwy Lywydd, and thank you to everybody that participated in this evening's debate on the NHS here in the Senedd. And let me start by thanking the staff, I think, who work in our NHS. Staff who go above and beyond every single day in our NHS. And when we speak to our constituents about their experiences of the NHS, they identify

they identify the things that they feel are wrong, but the one thing they never identify as being a problem in our NHS is the hard work and dedication of the staff that they come across in our NHS. But those staff, just like those patients that experience the NHS every day, have to do so in an incredibly difficult environment. Those miracles they perform are miracles because they're doing it in the context of 27 years of a Welsh Labour Government, who've delivered 12-hour A&E waits, ambulances regularly being queued outside hospitals, the longest NHS waits anywhere in the UK, including many over two years, GP appointments not available, and care that takes place in corridors. That is the record of 27 years of a Welsh Labour Government; the so-called party of the NHS has delivered all of that. Clearly, things need to change and, I think, Dirprwy Lywydd, it is apt that the first Welsh Conservative debate in this new Senedd Chamber is on the NHS, because it's a visual indication, is it not, about the priorities and the choices that we as politicians face in the decisions that we make. Because there is a contrast, isn't there, and this new Chamber highlights it.

We want to prioritise the NHS. We put forward a plan to fix our NHS, and yet it has not been fixed. In 2021, just four years ago, there was a co-operation agreement—some call it a coalition—between Plaid Cymru and the Labour Party. Plaid Cymru could have asked, in that deal, for anything that they wanted at all, and the No. 1 priority of our constituents would've been to fix some of these chronic issues in our NHS, but they didn't choose to do that, Dirprwy Lywydd. They prioritise more politicians over fixing our national health service. [Interruption.] That's the choice that they make, and yet we are sat in a brand-new Senedd Chamber whilst our hospitals crumble outside those doors. [Interruption.] That is the visualisation of the choices that Plaid Cymru make.

I will ask all Members—[Interruption.] I will ask all Members on both sides of the Chamber to calm down, please. I would like to listen to the response from the Member closing the debate, and I would like to actually hear what he is saying, because I can't at the moment, because the voices from the left and the right are outspeaking him, shall we say. Tom, finish it off, please.

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Dirprwy Lywydd. [Interruption] Yes. Of course.

You decided to come to an agreement with the Government on this year's budget. Did you succeed in anything in that discussion? No. Was there anything about health in that discussion? No. You don't know what it means to come to an agreement. Of course we would have tried to come to an agreement. We're different parties. We couldn't come to an agreement on everything; we did on mental health, and we achieved something. What have you achieved in 27 years?

Well, we pushed for many things, including our plan for the NHS, but of course we did not come to an agreement with the Labour Party, because, as usual, Plaid and Labour find themselves back together again at the end of a budget negotiation. As night follows day, Labour follow Plaid and Plaid follow Labour. And if Plaid are serious about having a plan to fix our NHS, they need to come clean about how they would fund it if their independence agenda was pursued. A loss of £21 billion in tax revenue, £7,000 per person, and they cannot, for a second, answer how they would plug that gap. It would mean real-terms cuts to our NHS if we pursued independence. That is the reality.

Now, we move on from Plaid Cymru to the contributions from Reform today, the contribution from James Evans and from Reform. Look, I know James has been making a lot of decisions recently about his future employment, and that has been the driving force, but if I'd known, James, that you were capable of a performance like that, I'd have taken you to the comedy club down the road quite a long time ago. Because it is clear, is it not, that Reform do believe in that privatisation agenda that you said they didn't. Because it wasn't that long ago that you said, 'My Welsh Conservative colleagues and I all agree with an NHS that is free at the point of delivery that supports patients right the way across the country, no matter what their circumstances and how they access the system'. I have been alarmed by Reform UK's version of moving our NHS to a French-based insurance system, actually asking people, the most vulnerable people in our society, to pay for their healthcare,

There's a great old saying, isn't there, Tom: a wise person can change their mind and a fool doesn't know how to. I class you in that bracket. But let's actually get back to some reality here. I'm actually very interested in some of the Welsh Conservatives' amendments, because they talk a lot about ministerial accountability and structure. Sam Kurtz talked a bit about it. But I was actually looking in the rewritten manifesto that was launched, and there's nothing in there about change in ministerial accountability. There's nothing in there about structure of the NHS and moving the dial. All that's in it is about creating a new NHS quango that's going to cost millions of pounds. That isn't going to fix the NHS. I've seen the light. Unfortunately, some people on those benches wanted to see the light but couldn't come across. Unfortunately, what I've seen and what I've heard is a party in Reform that wants to change Wales, improve our NHS, and that's why I'm here.

Well, as usual, Reform are not on top of the detail because you've missed, clearly, the NHS leadership register that was part of that. And you talk about accountability. You and Reform should be absolutely accountable for the quotes that you've made and the things that you have said. I, like you, fear the privatisation agenda under a Reform Government. You believed that in July, and for political expediency, you no longer believe it now.

Now, it is very clear, isn't it, that Wales has a choice between a broken NHS under 27 years of a Labour Government. And when they look to choose who will be able to fix that after those 27 years, when they look at change, they will look at the choices that those parties have made during that time. They have three choices to make. They have a choice between a party that when they had the power to do something about it, didn't choose to fix our NHS but chose more politicians. They've got a choice with a party that continues time after time, in their own words, to choose privatisation. Or they can pick a party, the only party, with a plan to fix our NHS. That is the Welsh Conservative agenda. That is how we'll fix our NHS and that, Dirprwy Lywydd, is how we'll fix Wales.

Before I ask the question, many of my constituents tell me they do not like the behaviour they see in Prime Minister's questions in London, when they're baying and shouting at each other across the Chamber. We have several weeks up to an election, which I appreciate, but it doesn't help us when we see the same behaviour here. So, I will ask all Members to reflect, or all parties to reflect upon our behaviour in the Chamber in the remaining weeks of this Senedd.

The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is objection. Therefore, we'll defer voting under this item until voting time.

Item 13 is a motion to vary the order of consideration of Stage 3 amendments to the British Sign Language (Wales) Bill, and I call on a member of the Business Committee to move the motion formally—Jane Hutt. 

I move. 

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? There is no objection. Therefore, the motion is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

And that brings us to voting time. Unless three Members wish for the bell to be rung, I will proceed directly to voting time.

The first vote this evening is on item 9, the motion to amend Standing Orders, committee Chair job sharing. And I call for a vote on the motion tabled in the name of Elin Jones. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 33, no abstentions, and 12 against. Therefore, the motion is agreed.

We will next vote on item 12, the Welsh Conservatives debate. I call for a vote on the motion in the name of Paul Davies. If the proposal is not agreed, we will then vote on the amendments tabled to the motion. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 11, no abstentions, 35 against. Therefore, the motion is not agreed.

I now call for a vote on amendment 1, tabled in the name of Jane Hutt. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendments 2 and 3 will be deselected. Open the vote. Close the vote. As required under Standing Order 6.20, I exercise my casting vote against the amendment, as the vote is tied. In favour 23, no abstentions, 24 against. Therefore, amendment 1 is not agreed.

I now call for a vote on amendment 2, tabled in the name of James Evans. If amendment 2 is agreed, amendment 3 will be deselected. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour two, no abstentions, 44 against. Therefore, amendment 2 is not agreed. 

I now call for a vote on amendment 3, tabled in the name of Heledd Fychan. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 10, no abstentions and 36 against. Therefore, amendment 3 is not agreed. 

As the Senedd has not agreed the motion without amendment, and has not agreed the amendments tabled to the motion, the motion is therefore not agreed. 

That concludes voting for this evening. 

We will now move to the short debate, and I call on Buffy Williams to speak. 

For those Members leaving the Chamber, please do so quietly. Buffy. 

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. When we think about sport, we instantly think about competition, winning or losing, the big moments we watch on tv, the drama and the pride, the euphoria and the heartbreak. We think of events like the 6 Nations or the Winter Olympics, huge occasions that bring people together and create heroes. Those moments matter, because it’s those moments that build our role models.

In Rhondda, we’re incredibly proud of the athletes who inspire the next generation: footballers like Cian Ashford, representing Cardiff City; Welsh rugby internationals like Cam Winnett, Keiron Assiratti and Tomos Williams; professional female footballers like Gemma Evans, representing Wales and Liverpool; coaches like Robert Page, leading Cymru to the World Cup; and Chris Jones, whose dedication to young players through Rhondda schools rugby has shaped generations, and whose recent MBE is recognition not just of a personal commitment, but of the value of grass-roots sport itself. 

They show our young people what's possible, that talent can grow from our communities and reach the biggest stages. But the reality is that sport in Rhondda is about so much more than elite competition. Because, for most people, sport isn't about lifting trophies, it's about belonging, connection and community. So, my first question to the Minister is this: how is the Welsh Government ensuring that investment in elite success is matched by sustained support for the grass-roots systems that make those success stories possible in the first place?

Dirprwy Lywydd, when we talk about team sports, of course we talk about teams, but not just the ones on the pitch. A real team includes coaches giving up evenings after work, parents standing on the touchline in the rain or in a packed sports centre, grandparents making the post-match or post-dance-competition dinner, volunteers running the tuck shop, committee members filling in funding forms on a Friday night, and the family car that becomes a changing room on wheels, with muddy boots or sweaty kits ruining the seats on the way home from training. Sport is multigenerational because of this. It connects people across all ages, and these contributions are the foundation that grass-roots sports stands on. So, I ask the Minister: how is the Welsh Government working with partners to properly support the volunteers who sustain grass-roots sport, and what practical help is available to ensure community clubs remain viable for our future generations? 

Another thing that defines grass-roots sports in Rhondda is inclusion. Sport in our communities doesn't show participants a red card; it opens the club door and welcomes with open arms. We see this through the incredible work of Rhondda Polar Bears, providing opportunities for swimmers with learning disabilities to participate, achieve and belong. We see it in Rhondda Netball, who, I'm sure, are the largest female sports club in Wales, creating space, confidence and leadership opportunities for girls and women, and our work towards finding a permanent home for them continues. We see it in RSD Dance Cheer & Gymnastics, taking young people from our Valleys onto the international stages, giving them experiences they may never otherwise have imagined across different countries. And we see the opportunity not just in participation, but in pathways into careers, including apprenticeships in sport provided through Urdd Gobaith Cymru, helping young people build skills, confidence and a future rooted in their communities and language.

Grass-roots sports creates opportunity that is inclusive, accessible and life-changing. So, my next question to the Minister is: what targeted support is available to ensure inclusive community clubs, particularly those supporting disabled participants, expanding opportunities for women and girls, and developing future careers in sport, have the resources and the facilities they need to grow?

While team sports often take the spotlight, we must also recognise individual achievement. Because, in Rhondda, not only do we produce strong teams, we produce exceptional individuals. In disciplines like kickboxing and bare-knuckle boxing, local Rhondda athletes have achieved world and European titles. We see weekly darts tournaments happening across our communities, including in the Baden in Ynyshir, thanks to Emrys Darts. Rhondda tennis club in Treorchy have quality courts and a bustling new clubhouse, and soon we'll see professional boxer Rhys Edwards take to the ring in Cardiff for his British title fight. These successes grow from grass-roots environments, places like Penygraig and Maerdy boxing clubs, just as much as team sports do. So, I ask the Minister: what support exists for individual sports at grass-roots level, particularly those that may not always receive the same visibility or facility access as larger team sports?

Sport in Rhondda is always evolving. We see new teams forming and new activities emerging. We are seeing rounders teams being established, like Meet the Fachers and Rounder Twist. We are seeing social sports like walking football and rugby growing, with Wattstown Warriors one of the most successful teams. And the benefits are not just physical. We know that community sport supports mental health, builds resilience and reduces isolation. It gives people structure, routine and connection. Clubs and teams become places where people talk, share and support one another, often without even realising that that's what is happening. So, I ask the Minister: how are grass-roots sports being recognised as part of Wales's wider mental health and preventative health strategy? And what funding is available to support clubs delivering well-being benefits in their communities?

Dirprwy Lywydd, when we look at the full picture, one thing becomes very clear: grass-roots and community sport isn't just competition, winning or losing; it's infrastructure, it's health support, it's youth engagement and it's opportunity. In Valleys communities like Rhondda, where geography shapes opportunity, access to quality facilities matters enormously. We've seen the positive impact that investment and partnerships can bring, like the all-weather pitches in Ferndale, Baglan and the Rhondda Fach sports centre, as well as the state-of-the-art gym at Ystrad sports centre, and the fantastic new pool refurbishment in Maerdy.

We have two teams, Cambrian United and Ynyshir Albions, in the JD Cymru South League, with trailblazers driving progress: Phil Williams, whose dedication has led to an all-weather pitch and exciting plans to build on the fantastic facilities in Cambrian; and Cei Mason, who is hard at work with plans to build a brand-new community facility in Ynyshir. I feel extremely fortunate to be on that journey with them, as well as, more recently, Ton Pentre AFC, which is a club full of history, and now, once again, full of energy and enthusiasm to deliver their exciting plans over the next five years.

I recently met with Wales rugby international Tom James, who has opened a gym in Porth. Tom has exciting plans to work with young people in Rhondda, and I'm looking forward to supporting his endeavours long into the future. We continue to look forward, through partnership working, to make an all-weather rugby pitch a reality at Coleg y Cymoedd in Llwynypia—a project that would transform access to players and clubs across the whole of Rhondda.

So, my final questions to the Minister are these: how is the Welsh Government working with local authorities to ensure that communities like Rhondda have access to high-quality modern sporting facilities? And what long-term investment is planned to ensure that grass-roots clubs across all sports have the infrastructure that they need not just to survive, but to thrive?

Dirprwy Lywydd, communities like mine have never lacked commitment, they've never lacked pride and they've never lacked people willing to give of their time for others. Grass-roots sport in Rhondda reflects the very best of who we are—supportive, resilient and selfless. The question isn't whether grass-roots sport matters. We know that it does. The question is whether we'll continue to invest in it, support it and recognise it for the vital role it plays in communities like mine—like all of ours. Because, when grass-roots sports thrive, communities thrive. Diolch.

I call on the Minister for Culture, Skills and Social Partnership to reply to the debate—Jack Sargeant.

Diolch yn fawr, Dirprwy Lywydd. I'm grateful to Buffy Williams for leading this short debate and highlighting all of the fantastic sports on offer in her constituency and the work that is ongoing there by volunteers.

Llywydd, I had the pleasure of talking to her predecessor, or one of her predecessors, in this place, the chair of the Cambrian United advisory board, Leighton Andrews, recently, when the Cambrian team and the organisation won at the Careers Wales valued partners awards, showing that sports clubs go much beyond the on-field duties in their local communities.

I want to start where the Member started, by thanking and acknowledging the people who make grass-roots sports possible

who make grass-roots sports possible—the volunteers, the coaches, the organisations—those local champions who give their time and energy week in, week out. Without them, there would be no community clubs, no local teams and no opportunities for people of all ages to be active in their local communities—

Will the Minister give way?

I will.

I'm very grateful to you for giving way, and for indulging me, Dirprwy Lywydd. I just want to put on record my thanks to Ty Francis and Lukas Gamble, who set up Jersey for All, basically supporting grass-roots teams to have brand new kit and facilitating them with that, which I think is extraordinary, what they've done over the only seven or so years since they've launched that.

Secondly, yesterday, I hosted Christopher McEwen of Pembroke and Pembroke Dock Amateur Boxing Club in the Pierhead for a showing of the documentary, Fighters, which basically goes into the support given for disabled people to feel empowered through amateur boxing. So, I'd welcome the opportunity to sit with you, Minister, to discuss that programme that Christopher McEwen is leading on in more detail and how we can possibly roll it out across Wales.

I'll happily discuss with the Member, Llywydd, and I'll add my thanks to both organisations for the work that they're doing. I'll come on to—. I hope to talk about barriers and inclusion further on, so if I could make some progress, Presiding Officer.

Grass-roots and community sport matters because it delivers far more than participation alone, as we've already heard. It supports physical and mental well-being, helping people stay active and improve their quality of life. It plays a preventative role, supporting healthier lifestyles long before people reach crisis point. It also delivers social value. Community clubs bring people together, they reduce isolation, they create safe, welcoming spaces where people feel they belong and welcome. For many people, and many young people in particular, sport provides structure. It provides positive role models and it provides a sense of purpose. Importantly, Llywydd, grass-roots sport supplies life chances and our approach is not simply just about participation numbers.

As the Member said in her opening question, I think, our successes at elite level do not happen without the grass-roots investment. Without grass-roots clubs providing opportunities across communities in Wales, we wouldn't be able to produce the individuals to perform and succeed on the international stage. For example, without investing in floodlights three years ago, and again in solar panels this year, Penygraig RFC may not be as sustainable going forward, supporting all those young boys and girls at the start of their sporting journey.

Llywydd, the Member mentioned the importance of mental health in her contribution. I was pleased to launch a new Welsh Government initiative last year in partnership with Mind and UK Coaching. We have funded 1,000 mental health awareness training courses for community football clubs, working closely with the Football Association Wales. Three hundred and fifty clubs and coaches have taken that opportunity up, enhancing the role that they can play in supporting vulnerable people in their communities. Llywydd, I did this because I saw the power of sport and the role that sport can play when Connah's Quay Town in my own constituency launched a well-being section in response to losing a player of theirs and my best friend of 20 years, Jamie Wynne, to suicide. More recently, we have worked to roll this initiative out to rugby clubs, and I encourage every rugby club, every football club in Wales and every Member of this Senedd to encourage their community clubs to take part in this training.

I agree with the Member when the Member points to the role that volunteering plays. Volunteering is key to the success of all our grass-roots clubs in Wales. We work closely with delivery partners across the country, including local authorities, national governing bodies and the voluntary sector, to ensure that support reaches communities where it can make the greatest difference. 

The point that both Members who spoke in the debate have raised is a point on inclusion. Inclusion is a key priority for the Welsh Government, addressing the barriers that prevent some people from taking part, whether those barriers relate to cost, confidence, accessibility or location. Grass-roots sport must be open to everyone, regardless of their background or circumstance. An example is the FAW's PAWB fund, which has supported 1,000 young people at 417 clubs across Wales, and there are similar programmes in rugby and other sports, as well as contributions from others, as Sam Kurtz has pointed out.

We know, Llywydd, that community-led solutions are so important to addressing those barriers. It is local clubs, local people and local organisations that understand their communities best.

understand their communities best. Our role as a Government, with Sport Wales, is to enable and support our clubs by investing in them. We have done this by investing over £59 million-worth of capital funding through Sport Wales in new and upgraded facilities in communities this Senedd term. An example of a project that has benefited from this investment is a third generation pitch in Coleg y Cymoedd that the Member's constituents will know well. I am pleased that we have increased this funding into next year, allowing further investment in sporting facilities across the country in the future.

Llywydd, a further example of investment into our community clubs is through Sport Wales's energy saving grant. This scheme has invested more than £5.4 million in 307 projects in the past three years alone. On average, each club has saved around £3,000 in energy bills per year. I was honoured, just this week, to visit one such scheme in Llay Miners Welfare Institute to see the investments in solar panels and heating installations that have made a real difference to those clubs who play from there. I'll offer the Member some examples in her constituency: installation of solar panels at Phoenix Dance and Gymnastics and at Aberdare Golf Club through the energy saving grant scheme; floodlighting at Ton Pentre FC through the Be Active Wales funds.

But, Llywydd, we don't just invest through Sport Wales. We also invest through the Welsh Government's community facilities programme. It provides capital grants to help community organisations, including sports clubs, to improve their facilities. The grants help ensure community-run buildings and green spaces will be fit for the future. We've seen major grants, £250,000 in Menai Bridge Cricket Club in Ynys Môn, £300,000 in Fairwater RFC in Cardiff. We've seen examples across the country again. These clubs have used the funding to provide better facilities, not just for their players, but for their wider community.

Llywydd, grass-roots sport does not sit in isolation. It's impact spans health, education, community development and social partnership. It's why we continue to work across the Government and with our partners to align sport and physical activity to wider, better policy objectives. We know that beyond the obvious, immediate benefits to health and social well-being for our communities, the investment that we make in sport contributes to an ecosystem with pathways to performance at elite level and success for Cymru on the world stage.

I'm personally proud of the work this Government has done to harness the benefits of our national teams' success, including the £1 million partner support fund, delivering activity across the country, celebrating the success of our women's football team in the UEFA Euros last summer. The funding supported a range of events, creative projects and learning resources to highlight Welsh talent, whilst building a legacy that will inspire future generations and promote greater participation in sport and culture that continues way beyond any tournament.

It's not just success elsewhere that we celebrate. Wales has been and will continue to be the backdrop to major sporting events attracting global interest. We have been clear as a Government that we must make the most of these opportunities to deliver long-term impact. So, when the AIG Women's Open, the best women golfers in the world, came to the Royal Porthcawl this summer, we opened a £1 million women's golf legacy fund to address some of the barriers faced by women and girls in the sport, including better and more inclusive changing facilities. I had the honour of seeing this in action in Wrexham just a few weeks ago.

Llywydd, in December, I announced an additional investment of £2.5 million in sporting facilities across the country, funding various new and innovative projects, including major facilities, upgrades and support for elite pathways. We included in that a £1 million fund for the FAW to develop girls' and grass-roots facilities at Dragon Park in Newport, including a new 3G pitch. This was described by the FAW's chief executive as an important legacy for the women's Euros and a catalyst for future growth.

Llywydd, in closing, I want to do two things, I want to confirm that the Welsh Government remains committed to working in partnership to ensure that sport at community level continues to change lives, continues to strengthen communities

continues to change lives, continues to strengthen communities, and continues to help deliver healthier, more active futures for our Valleys and for the whole of Wales.

And Llywydd, I said I wanted to do two things: my second thing,  in closing, is to wish Rhys Edwards all the very best from this Senedd and from the Welsh Government in his upcoming title fight in Cardiff.

Thank you, Minister and Buffy, and that brings today's proceedings to a close. Thank you.