Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru

It is in bittersweet circumstances that we extend our Senedd's congratulations and welcome to Lindsay Whittle, the new Member for Caerphilly.

Lindsay reminded me the other day that when we both sat on the health committee as Plaid Members back in the fifth Senedd, I used to kick him under the table if I thought he was going off message at any point. I can tell Lindsay now that my legs aren't long enough to kick you from here, but I do have control of your microphone. [Laughter.] So, I'm going to open your microphone, Lindsay, and ask you to share a few words with the Senedd.

—it's a great pleasure to be welcomed back into the Senedd of Wales. I was here before and I am immensely proud to have been elected to serve all of the people of the Caerphilly constituency. However, clouded in the euphoria of election, we must never, ever forget—and I can assure you, I will never forget—the worthy contributions of my friend, Hefin David, who was a deep loss to his family and to the political life of Wales—a man who had the utmost respect. 

Could I thank all of the people here within this Senedd? The staff here have been amazing. I've had an incredible induction week. I've literally been here five days since the election and I haven't stopped working, and I can tell you that that is a magnificent sign of the maturity of this Senedd, because, in 2011, you were literally thrown in at the deep end. Not today, and that's a sign that this Senedd is here to stay, and I hope it will improve as, literally, the decades go on and on. And you, all of you here, will be part of history. But, for now, I just want to thank all of the staff who've been involved, and in particular, too, Plaid Cymru, who, in 2011, also threw me in at the deep end, but they haven't this time. The staff employed by Plaid Cymru too, their work has been excellent. 

But, for now, my dedication is to all of the people of Caerphilly. I will work tirelessly for absolutely every member of that community to ensure that we get the best deal for the ordinary man, woman and child in the street. That is why I am here, and I'm sure that's why you are here. So, thank you all very much for your welcome. You are now all my new friends, many of you. Thank you. [Applause.]

Diolch, Llywydd, and welcome back, Lindsay. Unfortunately, I'm not there this week, but I look forward to seeing you there.

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Janet. Llywydd, if you'll indulge me just for a moment, can I extend my own welcome, and those of my group, to our most recent Member of the Senedd, the Welsh Parliament, Lindsay Whittle MS? Furthermore, can I just applaud the tribute that you just paid and, indeed, the tribute that you paid on the night, in the count—and I was there—to a much missed and much loved former colleague, Hefin David, when you acknowledged in your acceptance speech that Hefin was a doughty champion for Caerphilly, and for Wales, and that it would be a hard act to follow? And we agree, but I know that we are looking forward to the new Member for Caerphilly's contributions here in the Siambr and on committees, and elsewhere. So, welcome—croeso i chi. 

Janet, we know how important schools are to our rural communities, and that is why our school organisation code includes special provisions for rural schools. Proposals to close them must follow a more detailed process. This does not mean that a rural school will never close, but it sets high standards for consultation, giving all those with an interest the chance to make their views known, and requiring the consideration of all possible alternatives.

Diolch. Thank you for that. I know that there is a strict model for either closing or merging our rural schools. Our primary schools are the beating heart of rural communities. Now, in my local authority, Conwy County Borough Council, in communities such as Betws-y-coed and Ysbyty Ifan, they are not just places of learning but springboards for the Welsh language and social cohesion. Now, I am very disappointed that, for the second time now, the Plaid Cymru members on the local authority, and, indeed, the cabinet member, for the second time now are pushing through proposals for a consultation on their closure. Now, you tend to say, 'Brilliant, that's exactly how it should go'. However, there's been a presumption already made to close one school in particular. The 2018 school organisation code I don't believe goes far enough. The other night, I attended a public meeting, with over 80 people and, overnight, 1,000 people had signed a petition. This school is a school that's had £0.5 million spent on it quite recently, and people are—this is the Betws-y-coed school—asking why there's this presumption now to go forward with this—

I'll need you to ask the question now, Janet Finch-Saunders.

Okay. So, the code states that all viable alternatives to closure must be conscientiously considered, and they haven't been. So, again, Deputy First Minister, will you have a look at this? I may well be bringing this to you—

No. Just ask the question. You don't need to sub-clause it. Ask the question.

Okay. Considering what's going on here, do you agree with me that the community should have a strong say—?

The First Minister will answer the question now. [Interruption.] The Deputy First Minister.

The Deputy First Minister. [Laughter.] Diolch, Llywydd, for that correction.

Janet, thank you for the supplementary. I know you'll understand that I'm simply unable to comment on the merits or otherwise of any individual local authority proposals because they may be later referred to Ministers for determination.

You rightly pointed out that we strengthened the code in 2018 to include the procedural presumption against the closure of rural schools. Now, the case for closure, if it's put forward, of any school should be robust and it should be in the best interests of educational provision in that area. The prime consideration for any proposal must be the interests of learners. Alternatives to closure must be considered, as well as assessing the impact on the community and, indeed, on the Welsh language. Local authorities, I have to be clear, are responsible for the planning of school places. But I know, Janet, you'll join with me in welcoming as well the fact that Conwy local authority has benefited in recent times from just short of £44 million of investment to date in its schools, through the sustainable communities for learning programme. That, on top of other investment—in the free school meals capital grant, the community-focused schools, additional learning needs, and childcare—shows the investment that we as Welsh Government are putting into Conwy.

Diolch, Delyth. We’ve set out our priorities for Wales, which include investment to grow our economy and create more jobs. We’ve highlighted Wales's unique position to contribute to the UK’s renewable energy targets, to defence and to AI growth deals. And we've repeated calls for the UK Government to lift the two-child benefit cap.

Diolch for that. There are moments that matter, of course, in politics. The UK budget should be a chance to change things, but all signs point to the contrary. Keir Starmer and Rachel Reeves seem determined to answer people's anger and their anguish with not compassion but cuts, and cuts in all the wrong places. Now, Wales should be demanding—I'm glad that you have—that Westminster scrap the two-child benefit cap and do more to help families with the cost of living, and bring in a wealth tax to fund our struggling public services properly. I'll ask if you will demand each of those things and how confident you are that you will be listened to, because people feel let down by Labour. Plaid Cymru is now seen as the party that will fight for our communities, and the latest proof of that is Lindsay Whittle, who is sitting with us today. The people of Caerphilly have sent Westminster a message: 'We demand better'. Will you be conveying that to Starmer and Reeves, and will you be listened to?

We have negotiated as a serious Welsh Government with the UK Government on investment in Wales. We have delivered, as you will know, in the recent budget allocations £143 million additional funding for coal tip safety in every part of Wales, to deal with that industrial legacy; £445 million extra rail funding, beginning—beginning—to address the historical underfunding of Wales's railways; £500 million in Tata Steel; £80 million into offshore wind in Port Talbot; and £30 million into greater investment in research and development in that area as well. So, we are investing in people and skills and the economy.

But, just in case you have missed the announcement, most significant, in recent days, indeed, is that, following agreement with the UK Government and the negotiations we've had on priorities, on the local growth funding, we will make decisions here on that local growth funding. And that local growth funding, Llywydd, is equivalent to a 22 per cent share of the overall UK local growth funding. It matches, Delyth, the proportion of UK funding that was allocated to Wales under the European structural funds and the shared prosperity fund. So, every corner of Wales will benefit from this new fund, worth more than £0.5 billion, to create jobs and grow productivity right across Wales.

Deputy First Minister, we are just a few weeks out from another UK Labour budget, and that will continue the decline in our economy, I fear. We heard this morning the Chancellor's pre-budget speech, refusing to rule out hiking taxes again for hard-working people. Within minutes, the value of the pound plummeted. This is Labour's economics in action. The Chancellor has blamed everyone for the current economic state apart from herself. We know there's already some disconnect between this end of the motorway and the other end of the motorway. We know we're £72 million short following the national insurance hike last time. So, can I therefore ask, Deputy First Minister, if the Welsh Labour Government is aligned with UK Labour's corrosive economic vision, and will you ensure that Wales is not left to bear the brunt of your colleagues' decisions, once again forcing Welsh taxpayers to foot the bill?

Peter, look, I love you dearly, but I love even more the chutzpah of a Conservative Member lecturing us on economic management, when, for 14 years, there was chaos and serial incompetence on the budget. The Conservative Party, who at one time used to say they were the party of economic probity and so on, were shown up to be the frauds that they were. It was a disaster, and we are still picking up the pieces.

But just to say, Peter, in your own area, in the region that you come from, we are supporting already economic development right across that region. We are supporting, for example, the £1 billion—for example, Delyth, Peter, and others—within the core Valleys lines. We were up yesterday in Merthyr. We were looking at the investment with TfW that was done under this Labour Government as a result of devolution and the powers that we have to invest with Welsh taxpayers, and we saw the modernisation of the fleet—95 per cent of that fleet will be new trains by the time of the end of this Senedd.

If you look at the investment we will now do with the local growth fund, at £0.5 billion, I haven't heard a word from the Conservatives in the media or here in the Chamber applauding that. That is real delivery for people, I have to say, and we will do more going forward. So, please, please, please, step up any time you want to and try and lecture the Labour Party on picking up your mess that we have inherited from you.

It's the Labour Party, of course, that has stood up for Wales down the decades, defended our public services. I hear the Conservatives laughing, but the legacy of Liz Truss is being seen today, and you said nothing about it at the time.

Will you ensure, and will the Welsh Government ensure, that reform of the Barnett formula is on the agenda for this UK budget, because what Wales needs is to be treated according to Wales's actual needs, and not simply a head count? Barnett works for Scotland. It didn't work for Northern Ireland, so a needs-based formula was introduced. Wales needs that same formula as Northern Ireland and it's time we received it. I hope the Welsh Government will be making that case very, very strongly in the coming weeks.

Alun, thank you very much. The discussions over the Barnett formula are far more than arcane discussions, because it is to do with the quantum of funding that comes here to Wales. It's long been acknowledged by this Welsh Government that it has passed its sell-by date, but I am pleased to tell you, Alun, of course, that we have secured an agreement with the UK Government to explore, now, the Barnett formula and how we should take this forward. And my compliments to our Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Welsh Language and the First Minister for actually negotiating that space to engage with this now with the UK Government. That is what we mean about actually having a Welsh Government here, led by Eluned Morgan, working with the UK Government to say, 'Let's explore these historic inequities and sort them out.' Thank you, Alun.

Well, not much has changed. [Laughter.] Deputy First Minister, south Wales, in fact, faces some of the most deprived communities. In my constituency of Caerphilly, there are nearly 30 per cent of children living in poverty. We know of many schools in my area where every single one of the pupils lives in some of the most deprived households in Wales. Poverty affects 82 per cent of households in communities such as Lansbury Park. It is the most deprived area in south Wales, according to the latest Welsh index of multiple deprivation. For the last eight years, I have been a volunteer every Wednesday at the Caerphilly foodbank. I witness poverty every single week. The people of Caerphilly and of Wales have paid the price, in my opinion, for successive Westminster Governments’ actions and the austerity agenda for far too long.

So, Deputy First Minister, what discussions are the Welsh Government having with the Chancellor ahead of the autumn budget to make the case clearly that my constituents in Caerphilly should not be carrying the burden of the budget? In fact, I would hope that you will be emphasising that it is, in fact, those with the broadest shoulders who should be paying their fair share through the introduction of a wealth tax. And I’m not looking at any of you in particular. [Laughter.]

Llywydd, I said that we were looking forward to the contributions and, genuinely, in this and others I think that we'll have some sparky debates and questions flying back and forth. Simply to say, I've outlined—we've outlined—already as Welsh Government where our priorities are, and they are in skills, investment and opportunities for all of our people. I am a Valleys person as well. I'm from the top of Maesteg, which stretches from the Llynfi valley from Caerau down to the M4 and, what would you call it, the attractions of McArthurGlen, but the Garw, the Ogmore, the Gilfach as well. Many of us in this Chamber understand exactly what you're saying. And the very best thing that we can do is to make sure that the decisions that we make here—having been a person who has served up there as a Minister and has come back here to make the difference we can make here in this Senedd, in this Welsh Parliament—are to the benefit of your constituents. And that includes, by the way, what we've done in recent years.

So, when the Tory Government under austerity was scrapping Sure Start, we kept our Flying Start going; when the nurse bursaries disappeared, we kept our nurse bursaries going. From campaigning on those benches and these benches, we extended the educational maintenance allowance so that young people don’t have to think about whether they can afford to go to college—they will go to college because of what we’ve done here. That is where we need to stand firm. On our proposals here within this Welsh Government and Welsh Parliament, we will continue, Lindsay, to make our case clearly to the UK Government. Government to Government, we will do that. We will stand without fear or favour on putting the Welsh Labour position firmly to the UK Government. But we must also do what we can do here, and I think we have undersold what this Senedd and this Welsh Parliament has done to face off 14 years of austerity and to continue to defend public services against Tory ravages. And now that we have a £1.6 billion uplift, we can do more. We have brought down waiting times over the last year by two thirds. That will be a benefit to your constituents, Lindsay, and we will keep on going.

Diolch, Llywydd. On behalf of the Welsh Conservative group, we send our best wishes to the First Minister and her family at this time. And I also want to pay tribute to the bravery of the rail staff who risked their lives to protect passengers during the terrible incident in Cambridgeshire over the weekend. We thank the emergency services for their swift response and we wish all victims a very speedy recovery.

And I also, on behalf of the Welsh Conservatives, want to welcome Lindsay Whittle to his place as the Member for Caerphilly. Lindsay is a great example to us all of the old adage that if at first you don't succeed, try, try, try, try, try, try, try and try and try and try again. [Laughter.] So, Lindsay, welcome to your place. We look forward to engaging with you in the months ahead.

Now, back to questions. Deputy First Minister, in March 2023, the then health Minister, now First Minister, promised to eliminate all two-year waits for NHS treatment by March 2023. That deadline passed over two years ago, so could you tell us today how many people in Wales are still waiting for more than two years for planned NHS treatment?

Darren, thank you for that question. Let me update you: the overall waiting lists fell again in August by around 2,500 from July. There was a small rise in the number of people waiting more than two years for treatment in August. I have to say, this is not unexpected. We often see this over the summer months. The provisional data, let me tell you, for September, shows a significant further fall in the size of the overall waiting list, and a reduction in long waits. So, the average waiting time for treatment is 21.7 weeks. There are now thousands—thousands—of extra out-patient appointments being provided every month, and 20,000, for example, extra cataract operations are being provided across Wales this year as part of our £120 million plan to cut long waiting times. Now, I could go on.

There is more to do, Darren. I appreciate that. But once, just once, stand up and praise those staff who, with supreme effort, are turning around the waiting times and the waiting lists. Praise their efforts, because we never hear that. We hear the criticism, we hear, 'We're not doing enough', and yet it is because of Welsh Government investment, because of holding the health boards' feet to the fires, working with them and on them, but most of all because public servants on the front line in health are putting a supreme effort in to turn this around—. We are working, we've got more to do. But a two-thirds fall in 12 months is not to be sniffed at. We're going in the right direction.

I asked you a very simple question, which was how many people are still waiting for two years plus, and the latest stats, of course, did show that that figure went up to over 8,500 that are still waiting more than two years or more for treatment. Now, in England, with a population 18 times the size, that figure is just 168. It is totally unacceptable that patients in Wales are 500 times more likely to wait for two years for treatment than over the border.

Now, Wales, of course, we know, as a result of the previous UK Conservative Government's budget deal with the fiscal framework, receives 20 per cent more funding per head than in England to spend on our national health service. Yet one in four people are still on an NHS waiting list in Wales, and people spend longer in our emergency departments too. In September more than 10,000 people in Wales waited more than 12 hours in our emergency departments, and that includes more than 1,000 in your new state-of-the-art flagship hospital, the Grange, near Cwmbran. The Aneurin Bevan health board, which runs that hospital, has spent more than £3 million of taxpayers' money on solar panels, with a payback period of over two decades. Do you agree with me that patients and staff would have been far more grateful if that money had been spent getting waiting times down and improving the performance of the emergency department?

It's sad to see once again that the leader of the opposition fails to acknowledge the work that is going in, led by those front-line staff, to turn waiting times around. I've acknowledged that there is more to do, but if you look at the progress we've made over the last year, on the back of the investment that we have managed to put in, the investment that you voted against in the last budget—. Let me just make that clear: the investment you voted against. So, we are driving waiting times down. [Interruption.] The Member reflects from a sedentary position that they're going up. The August figures, as I mentioned in my immediate response, typically go up in the summer, and we'll have an August blip. But the September provisional figures are showing once again that we are on that consistent downward trend. Say 'thank you' to the staff who are driving this effort. And also it's the investment that we are putting in.

You say 'thank you' to the staff and I say 'thank you' to the staff, but will you say 'sorry' to the patients and the staff that you're letting down? For 26 years they have had Labour health Ministers, and for 26 years we have seen nothing but decline in our national health service. And, of course, your Government have not been the only people responsible for this. The Labour Party has been propped up by Plaid and the Liberal Democrats too. The reality is, Deputy First Minister, that the Welsh NHS is broken. Patients are waiting longer for treatment, longer for tests, longer for ambulances and longer in our emergency departments than elsewhere in the United Kingdom. And as a Welsh Government, you have declared a climate emergency, you have declared a nature emergency. You spend millions on staff and initiatives to deliver these schemes while patients are languishing in pain on trolleys in corridors in our hospitals. When will the Welsh Government do the right thing and declare the health emergency that needs to be declared so that we can get to grips with these things once and for all?

Well, there we have it. There we have it, the quote of this session from the leader of the opposition—'The Welsh NHS is broken'. From the party that never wanted to see the establishment of the NHS, they are now telling us the NHS is broken, from the party that would be happy to dismember the NHS, the Welsh NHS, he says, is broken. It is not broken, it is under immense pressure. [Interruption.] It is under immense pressure—

Allow the Deputy First Minister to continue with his answers, please.

Indeed, diolch, Llywydd. The NHS is under immense pressure. We are seeing more patients every day across primary and secondary care. We are seeing more out-patients every day as well. The demands are greater. When Nye Bevan established the NHS, it was said at the time the NHS would always struggle to deal with demands. The demands nowadays are greater, more significant than ever before. But we, not the Conservatives, despite your heckling—[Interruption.]—despite your heckling, Darren—[Interruption.] Despite your heckling, we will continue to invest. We will turn around waiting times. We will turn around ambulance handover delays, which have fallen now to the lowest level in more than four years. We will continue to invest in driving down the cancer targets, which now are 60 per cent for the seventh month in a row. We will continue to make progress. And we will not accept that the Welsh NHS is broken, because there are thousands of people out there who work every day, because not everybody can go to private healthcare. Not everybody has that fall-back option. We will defend the NHS and we will repair it where it is not working effectively. The Tories never would. They voted against the establishment of it and we're seeing it again.

It's a pleasure to welcome the Member for Caerphilly back to the Senedd. This was a by-election that nobody wanted, and I join Lindsay Whittle, again, in paying tribute to Hefin David, in whose footsteps he now follows.

In the end, Plaid Cymru's positive vision saw off the divisive politics of Reform in that by-election and, if I might say, the people of Caerphilly saw through Labour's clearly misleading claim that it was a two-horse race between Labour and Reform. I've read the opinion pieces where Labour Members now fall over themselves to say that they had known for weeks that they weren't even in the race, but they were happy to go along with a disingenuous campaign that could have opened the door to the populist right, and I think they should reflect on that.

Of course, in the aftermath of that result, Labour say they are listening to the public, but they've had 26 years to listen. It's action that people want, and now they are tired of waiting. So, with the First Minister saying that she thinks there are, and I quote,

'serious lessons for us to learn here at all levels of government',

will the Deputy First Minister tell us what now, in policy terms, will change?

I can happily respond to what will change, but also what has changed over the last year. We've had an extra £1.5 billion, Rhun, in Welsh public services in the 2025-26 budget. We've brought down NHS waits significantly, but there's more to do. We've secured 65 inward investment jobs in 2024-25. That's a 23 per cent increase on an annual basis, which has created just short of 2,500 new jobs. That's a 30 per cent increase in the number of jobs. There are many more other things I can refer to. The investment that we do in the business community has safeguarded more than 7,000 jobs over the last year. We are taking forward the plans on women's health hubs, so that there will be a women's health hub in every constituency by March 2026. We've secured £125 million to fix the potholes in our roads, which people said, 'Will you listen, please, and do this?', and we've done that. So, from bread-and-butter issues to significant issues, such as building 4,500 more homes for people to live in, we are delivering, and if we have support for the budget going forward, we'll be able to do so much more.

I wasn't sure if 'no change' would be spelt out quite as clearly as that by the Deputy First Minister, but it's clear that people should be resigned to more of the same under Labour. Take health: in a written statement, the Cabinet Secretary for health confirmed that, as part of a £120 million investment to bring down waiting lists, there was an expectation, on two-year waits, that there would be at least a holding firm on the position we were in in March, with a downward trend expected to follow, but the reality is that there are now 300 more people waiting over two years. We're now on nearly 9,000. The target was zero by 2023.

Now, we in Plaid Cymru have published our own plans for bringing down waiting lists, including moving at pace with more elective care hubs, as recommended by the Royal College of Surgeons. Now, all of us want a better NHS. The NHS is not the property of one party. So, in that spirit, is the Deputy First Minister open to meeting Mabon ap Gwynfor, Plaid Cymru's health spokesperson, to learn more about our ideas, which could help bring down waiting times?

The meeting that we are really, really looking forward to, bearing in mind that all of this depends on actually deciding what are the priorities for funding going forward, is to have that door that's been opened by the First Minister, Eluned Morgan, walked through by yourselves and by others as well, to talk about what priorities should be. I have to say, we have allocated over 98 per cent of the budget already in order to focus on front-line services, but we've made it very clear, as my colleague the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Welsh Language has said, that that is actually a starting point, not the ending point. We want to have those discussions with you. So, please, come forward—enter those discussions. But, in doing so, we have to acknowledge that it's priorities: 'What do we invest in?' and 'What do we not invest in?' as well.

I must say that I'm surprised, given the worsening outcomes on two-year waits, that the Deputy First Minister wasn't open to listening to our alternative ideas, specifically on health. The offer remains there.

Of course, failings in health are matched in education too. We've just seen a top expert quitting the Welsh Government's literacy panel, saying it's not fit for purpose. That's a pretty damning verdict. In the latest Programme for International Student Assessment reading tests, all other UK nations performed above the international average. In Wales, it was 3 per cent below average. And Elizabeth Nonweiler's message is stark: the mission of improving literacy to raise standards will fail unless current plans change. So, I come back to my original question. What's going to change? It's NHS targets missed. It's falling school standards. Does the Deputy First Minister understand the frustrations of people in Caerphilly and right across Wales? And will he recognise that doing the same thing over and over again will just lead to us getting the same results time and time again?

I absolutely recognise those frustrations, because I think this is a common concern now about what can Government do to improve people's quality of life, deal with cost-of-living issues, deal with the wide range of public services support as well. We've kept that investment going over all these years, and we're now doing more.

I just want to contest what you're saying, because it's echoed a point that was made by the leader of the Conservatives a moment ago. There has been, in the August figures, a small uplift in terms of the waiting times. But the consistent pattern over the last year in waiting times has been downward, a two-thirds reduction. The September figures provisionally show that it's back, again, going downwards. So, I hope we can acknowledge that and deal in the data and the facts and the evidence.

And in terms of education, the Cabinet Secretary for Education has made it clear that her top two priorities are educational attainment and also school attendance as well. But you mentioned the literacy expert panel. That literacy expert panel brings together a wide breadth of expertise and experience from research and practice to ensure all the support is based on clear research evidence on how learners develop reading and wider literacy skills. That's a vital piece of work, and we need to go with the evidence of what works if we're to improve standards in literacy.

The leader of Plaid Cymru says that nothing has changed, and yet many of the things I've said are actually showing that we are making a difference over the last 12 months on the back of investment from the UK Government. And we'll continue to make that difference, if we can secure budgets going forward. So, please, come through that door and talk with us about what your priorities will be. And I know we have to do more in health, as we have to do in education, as we have to do across a wide range of policy areas. But this Government has made a difference through all the years that we have faced down Tory austerity, and now we are starting to build back from those foundations.

Diolch yn fawr iawn, John. The Commission on the UK's Future covered a wide range of topics, and they included constitutional reform, which the First Minister and other ministerial colleagues raise consistently with our UK Government counterparts.

Deputy First Minister, this report, by former Labour Prime Minister Gordon Brown and colleagues, is a very important report for Wales. One aspect that I think is particularly significant is its recommendations in relation to the economy. We know that our economy in Wales requires substantial support and improvement, and this report addresses the inequalities in the economy of the United Kingdom. It proposes large-scale investment in clusters, such as semiconductors and cyber security in Newport and south-east Wales, for example; further redistribution of UK civil service and agency jobs out of London and the home counties to Wales—and we have good examples in Newport of where that has been a great success—and significant funding for our infrastructure—rail and renewable energy, for example. Deputy First Minister, would you agree with me that Gordon Brown's report is a serious piece of work? Commissioned by our UK Labour colleagues when in opposition, now, in Government, it must be implemented if those communities that feel left behind are to see the transformative change they need to provide them with the standards of living and life chances that we would all want to see.

Absolutely, John, and thank you for that question, because the Gordon Brown report put forward some very striking proposals—supporting industrial clusters, as you've described, including in things like semiconductors, decentralising public sector jobs, rebalancing economic opportunity to deal with the inequalities. So, that targeted approach, indeed. And we're not waiting for others to do this job for us; we're already working on it. So, as you will know, in your area and in the region, we supported the growth of the compound semiconductor cluster in Wales; it's predominantly around Newport. Indeed, for over a decade, we've had co-investment from universities, from industry and from UK Government and the Cardiff capital region as well. And it is very well placed—that cluster is very well placed—to turn the anticipated growth in the global demand for semiconductors into long-term, high-quality, well-paid jobs and careers, and they've got a committed and skilled workforce there. 

The past 12 months, just to mention, we've seen over £500 million of announced private investment in the sector, primarily through KLA and Vishay creating and safeguarding over 1,000 well-paid jobs. This is the sort of investment that we can do right now on the back of Gordon Brown's report, and we'll keep the engagement going with the UK Government as well in the industrial strategy to support that approach.

Til Friday morning and I had the joy of opening my e-mail and seeing that I'd been allocated this supplementary, I, like many people, had forgotten about this particular report. And that is the issue, is it not, Deputy First Minister? This report, as far as the UK Government is concerned, is a non-event, and how are you, as Deputy First Minister, going to work to try and activate the report that you talk so glowingly about? Because, as far as I can see, in the first 18 months of the UK Government in Westminster, they've told you to go away every time you've asked for something.

So, Andrew, I'm so glad you were selected for that supplementary, because let me point out that one of the prime matters within Gordon Brown's report was how we use economic strategy and industrial strategy to tackle regional inequalities. Now, in Wales, we're getting on with that already; it's fundamental to how we deliver our economic growth strategy in Wales. So, we have targeted investment in infrastructure. We support sector strengths such as semiconductors growth, which has really taken off fantastically. We support fair access to public sector jobs. I'd be interested to hear if at any point in the last decade we've heard something glowing from the Conservative benches about the approach we take in terms of public sector jobs and the social contract that we have, ensuring fair access to those jobs. So, our approach, Andrew, is based in place-based delivery that works for every single part of Wales. We don't need to wait for any report to take that forward; we're already doing it.

Can I, on behalf of the Welsh Liberal Democrats, also welcome Lindsay to the Chamber? And good afternoon, Deputy First Minister. The Brown report, as has been referred to, includes many issues, but one I wanted to focus on, which actually Lindsay has also picked up, is the principle that no-one in our country should be left destitute. Child poverty in Wales has barely shifted in a generation; it did drop slightly, to 28 per cent, but has now increased to 31 per cent and is scheduled, by 2030, to rise to 36 per cent—something I think we should all be deeply, deeply horrified by.

One of the biggest barriers, we know, is childcare and access to free childcare. We know from the report by Pregnant Then Screwed that low-income parents here in Wales are spending nearly 10 times more of their income on childcare than those in the wealthiest families. So, I'd like to hear from you, if I may, what your plans are for free childcare. We want to see free childcare for 30 hours a week for nine-month-olds to four-year-olds across 48 weeks. What is the Welsh Government going to do to increase childcare to those families that are on low incomes? Diolch yn fawr iawn.

First of all, I would say that I'm very glad, as a former children and young people's Minister and social services Minister here in the Senedd some time ago, to see the focus that's being put on this by many parties in the run-up to the next election as well. And it's building on what we've done already. It is interesting to note here in Wales that we haven't just had a blanket approach to this; we've had targeted support that tries to deal with the inequalities as well—so, for example, support for parents who are in further education, higher education, training et cetera, that they can access childcare as well.

Now, everybody is laying out their offers at the moment; some are doing it very early indeed. I'm pleased to say that, from a Welsh Government perspective, as opposed to a future Labour manifesto perspective, we're also thinking about what the next stages are and how do you phase that in in a credible way, so that you can build on what we've already achieved. I would say, in Wales, we've led on this agenda, I have to say, and we are minded to go further as well—this Government and, I think, any future Government as well. The question is targeting it on where the support would be most useful and also how we phase that in, going through year by year as well. But we build from a very strong base, I have to say. And yes, we do have to do more, not just on child poverty but on family poverty generally. And there are many, many factors that contribute to those poverty indices, but we need to do more on that.

Wales has had its fair share—more than its fair share—of commissions, but they all have presented powerful evidence-based reasons on why reform is needed to the constitutional set-up of the UK. Some to my left will see this as navel-gazing, but, in fact, the people of Wales are being let down by the current system, and I'll give you a perfect example: Nadine Marshall. Nadine Marshall has been campaigning for a decade after the murder of her son, and the contribution of that was the let-down of the probation services. Now, it's heartbreaking for Nadine Marshall, despite many warm words, despite many promises, to see, over 10 years later, the same mistakes being made.

Now, we've had six years since the Commission on Justice in Wales. We've had three years since the Brown Commission—and I actually agree with Andrew R.T. Davies, for once. We've had two years since the Williams-MacAlister report. Wales does not need further committees or commissions or further reports; Wales needs change, and that was heard loud and clear in Caerphilly a fortnight ago—and croeso yn ôl i chi, Lindsay. Now, these crucial reforms are in the gift of the Labour Party. You're not in opposition anymore. When will the Labour Party seize the opportunity and deliver the real reform that Wales truly needs? Diolch yn fawr.

On the point of constitutional reform, I agree with you, and you wouldn't be surprised with this, that I don't regard it as navel-gazing. There is constitutional reform that is on the side of the people of Wales, that can deliver tangible benefits.

Now, we'll continue to argue the case with the current UK Government. We hope that we will have some progress, I have to say, in some areas, as well, of constitutional reform. But we've always said that devolution is a process, not an end result at any moment in time, and we continue to make the evidence-based case for further constitutional reform, but where it actually delivers for the people of Wales. So, I welcome the support that you're giving, and we will continue to engage with the UK Government on that.

Diolch, Cefin. Can I be clear? I welcome you raising this point, but there's probably a point of difference here, in that we want all of our students to be really proud Welsh citizens and also to look outwards to the world. I say this as somebody who studied outside of Wales first, then came back to Wales to do my postgraduate study. I then went to work outside of Wales and then saw the light and came back to Wales to work here as well.

We are committed to protecting students' right to choose wherever they study. So, we have to accept that some young people will want to move away from Wales, as I did, to see different things and to broaden their horizons. But, you know, many of them will want to come back, and they will want to come back and contribute here, either in education or in the wider economy.

So, we need to find ways of keeping in touch with those young people who move from Wales to study and encourage them—I agree with you—to keep on using their Welsh. Many of these young people will want to move back home later. We need to do everything that we can to highlight the opportunities back here in Wales.

I am pleased to say that the Cadw Cyswllt scheme, run by the Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol, is indeed helping Welsh-speaking students studying outside Wales to stay connected with opportunities in Wales. Also, that creation of more opportunities for young people to learn and train through Welsh is also vitally important. So, Medr's operational plan includes a commitment to publish its plan for the Welsh language by August 2026. So, we will keep on working on this, but I think that we have a point of difference on enabling. We believe, in this Welsh Government, in enabling all our students to be those proud Welsh citizens, wherever they study, and we hope then that they will come back to Wales and bring all those talents with them.

What an awful lack of ambition Plaid Cymru have for young people in Wales. They seem to think that it is a bad thing that Welsh people want to leave to go to study in Oxford, Cambridge or other universities across the United Kingdom. The Welsh Conservatives don't see that as a bad thing. We think that that's a good thing. We want to be aspirational for our young people, for our potential students in the future.

Deputy First Minister, I will say that we need to do more than hope then that those students return. We need to create the conditions so that they return. The only way to do that is by growing the economy in Wales. That's why the Welsh Conservatives put forward that ambitious plan to grow our economy by cutting taxes, cutting business rates completely, getting rid of stamp duty.

As the budget negotiations continue between the Welsh Government and the Welsh Conservatives, will you ensure that growing the economy is the absolute central focus of that, and will you back our plan to scrap stamp duty in Wales to encourage more people to move back to Wales after they graduate?

It's interesting when you look at the proportion of people in Wales who actually do not pay stamp duty currently. There were a couple of things that you said there. One is the question of engagement, because we have significant budget decisions coming forward. We're pleased that there are discussions going on; with that door that we've opened there, there are some discussions going on on the way forward. But can I just say something in terms of the overall approach of the classic Conservative sloganeering around 'cutting taxes, cutting taxes'? At some point, we also need to talk about investing in public services, because everybody in my community, and many communities across Wales, will depend upon strong, robust, good public services, and that means getting the balance right. If the agenda is purely to do with cutting taxes at all costs, then it is those working people that will suffer, because they are the ones who rely on the schools, the health service, the local GPs and everything else. But the door is open; if you have proposals, please walk through it.

Diolch, Alun. We continue to support opportunities for people right across Wales to build the skills they need to succeed and to strengthen the local workforce and economy. Our £10 million Trailblazer programme provides tailored employment and skills support, including mentoring, well-being services and green skills training. Aspire, Blaenau Gwent’s shared apprenticeship programme, has recently celebrated its tenth anniversary. It's a fantastic scheme that has supported now over 200 apprentices with high-quality training, leading to good employment.

Thank you very much, Deputy First Minister. I was delighted to join Ministers at both the opening of the Trailblazer project and the Aspire celebration last month. And yesterday, I was delighted to welcome Jack Sargeant, the Minister for Culture, Skills and Social Partnership, to Ebbw Vale for the opening and the launch of the high-value engineering facility from Coleg Gwent, which has been built and opened there this year. This demonstrates real investment in the future of our people. The Welsh Government has rightly been celebrated because of the investment in the hard infrastructure in the Heads of the Valleys, such as the Heads of the Valleys road, which was completed earlier this year. But now this Government is also investing, alongside its partners, in the people of the borough and of the wider Heads of the Valleys communities. This means that we're getting towards an economic and industrial strategy for the future of our communities. Will the Deputy First Minister come with me to Blaenau Gwent, and to help launch an economic development plan for the whole of the Heads of the Valleys?

Thank you very much. And you're absolutely right: the series of investments that we've made over many years within our Valleys communities, particularly the Heads of the Valleys, has been significant. And we can see it, not just in the hard infrastructure, such as the completion of the Heads of the Valleys road, but the thousands of job opportunities that that opens up, including with the very welcome initiative of the high-value engineering, the HiVE initiative, which was launched only this week, along with Jack Sargeant. That was born of a vision to create a centre of innovation and skills at the very heart of Ebbw Vale, and it's funded by the Welsh and UK Governments—just in light of some of the questions that we've heard. HiVE is part of this regeneration of the upper Valleys, bringing new opportunities to fulfil, by the way, industry needs, because they're a part of this as well, and addressing future skills gaps, and raising the aspirations of all our people in our Valleys. And it's designed with the future in mind, so it includes technology, creativity, collaboration, with equipping learners with the skills that those local employers need. But this is on top of the Tech Valleys. This is on top of the local growth fund that we've announced as well. There's much more to do, Alun, and I welcome the opportunity to meet with you and discuss what more we can do.

Diolch, Mike. We are working on a new dementia action plan for Wales to drive improvement, which will draw on the experience of people with dementia and their families. We'll be consulting at the end of the calendar year to inform this new plan.

Thank you for that answer. A dementia diagnosis often comes as a shock to the person with the condition and those around them. It is the most frightening diagnosis you or a member of your family can ever have. In October, alongside Rebecca Evans, I visited the Forget Me Not dementia day club in Swansea. I've also visited the dementia hub in Swansea, Musical Memories and dementia support groups. The dementia action plan is urgently needed.

The Minister for Children and Social Care announced at the older people's conference in October that there would be £9 million ring-fenced to deliver the dementia action plan. Could the Deputy First Minister outline whether this is to deliver the previous plan, or is this funding ring-fenced for the new plan? If it is for the new plan, what is it intended to achieve? 

Thank you, Mike, and I'm happy to clarify. As part of the regional integration fund, which provides £146.8 million annually to the regional partnership boards to promote well-being, within that, £9 million is ring-fenced to help deliver the dementia action plan for Wales. That £9 million is part of the £12.7 million that we will provide annually to RPBs to support the implementation of the existing dementia action plan, and to develop a joint health and social care approach. That's important for dementia support, alongside third sector partners. As I mentioned, Mike, we're holding this public consultation at the end of the year to inform the development of the new plan, and the evidence that is brought forward within that consultation will help shape then the emerging priorities, including planning around how funding should best be utilised.

Diolch, Paul. Our investment in the Swansea bay city deal is unlocking over £1 billion of funding and creating thousands of quality jobs across west Wales, helping with cost-of-living challenges. The Celtic Freeport is driving regional interest in new industrial opportunities, and the upcoming investment summit will inject millions into the green energy sector, boosting job numbers and strengthening the west Wales economy through sustainable growth and skills development.

Deputy First Minister, you'll be aware that there is a real issue in Pembrokeshire as Natural Resources Wales's recent river nitrates guidance is having a huge impact on development in the area, which will have a negative impact on the economy in my constituency. Many live planning applications are affected and hundreds of new homes are at risk, including affordable homes, and thousands of direct and indirect jobs are also at risk. As you know, this is something I've been raising with the Welsh Government for several months now, and despite reports that a rapid action taskforce has been established, we're still waiting for progress. Indeed, even the Labour group leader on Pembrokeshire County Council has spoken out on this, calling the actions of officials and Ministers in Cardiff Bay 'embarrassing'. Therefore, will you listen to the calls made by politicians from all parties and accelerate action to address this issue, so that important developments can go ahead and jobs are no longer at risk?

Thank you, Paul. We're not only listening, but we're already acting, as you hinted at there. So, NRW's latest assessments, just to be clear, confirm that nutrient pollution is harming marine protected areas. So, we're treating this with urgency. We issued a written statement on 10 October.

But whilst a range of house building is continuing in the impacted regions, we accept that resolving the current impact on future developments is a top priority. So, we've put in place that high-level taskforce, which has met now on several occasions, including, by the way, the local authority leaders. It's bringing together Welsh Government, NRW, local authorities and Dŵr Cymru to identify the short-term quick wins and the longer term solutions to unlock sustainable development in the areas affected. And we're backing that, by the way, Paul, that action, with over £2 million in support to help local authorities implement their nutrient neutrality measures and to get development moving again. I'm confident, Paul, that through the taskforce and the engagement with leaders across the affected areas we will find that balance and find the way forward.

Diolch, Llyr. First of all, we’ve set out within 'Planning Policy Wales' a key placemaking principle—that the local community should be involved in the development of all proposals, and that the needs and aspirations and the health and well-being of all people are considered right at the very outset. But we do recognise that that effective early engagement has benefits for the local communities and for developers to understand the concerns and the needs of those local communities in helping to create successful developments.

You rightly stress the urgency of getting clarity around some of these. We’ve published guidance on local and shared ownership that sets out a pathway for meaningful community engagement. The Infrastructure (Wales) Act 2024 will provide opportunities for robust community engagement on significant infrastructure projects, and we’ll be setting out pre-application best practice in the spring of 2026. So, we see the urgency to do this, and the desire of communities to be meaningfully engaged, and we want to make that happen.

I'd like to put on record my disappointment that there isn't an oral statement on today's agenda from the Deputy First Minister in relation to the Welsh Government's bluetongue control policy. Last week, a written statement was issued on this issue, which will have significant implications for the agricultural industry, and I believe that the Welsh Government should have made time for that decision to be scrutinised in this Chamber, so that Members can ask questions around the detail of that announcement. The Deputy First Minister’s decision to declare an all-Wales restricted zone from 10 November, whilst welcome, is too important just to be issued as a written statement. It’s disappointing that the Welsh Government is not making an oral statement in this very Chamber. So, Trefnydd, a statement on bluetongue should be on today’s agenda, given its implications for the farming industry. Will you commit to ensuring that there will be oral statements on major policy decisions like this in the future, so that the Government can be scrutinised and questions can be asked openly and transparently by Members on behalf of the people of Wales?

Diolch yn fawr, Paul Davies. Thank you for that question. In response to the timing of statements and the nature of those statements, a bluetongue written statement, as you know, and as you said, was issued on 30 October, following a round-table discussion on future bluetongue policy with senior livestock and veterinary sector representatives on 27 October. It was important that that round-table discussion was followed swiftly with that statement. The written statement was considered to be the most effective way of updating Senedd Members and industry on bluetongue policy developments during recess.

I think it is important, as the written statement outlines, that an all-Wales bluetongue restricted zone will be declared on 10 November, revoking the temporary control zone, animal movements and premises-level restrictions. This will facilitate the free movement of animals between England and Wales from 10 November.

Bluetongue surveillance is ongoing in Wales. A total of 13 cases have been confirmed so far, including four cases in Powys and nine within the temporary control zone in Monmouthshire. Vaccination, of course, remains the best way to protect livestock and livelihoods from the worst impacts of bluetongue. Our new approach to bluetongue does mean that it’s more important than ever to be prepared for the impacts of the disease.

Finally, Llywydd, I would say that stakeholders have unanimously agreed, including the need for animal keepers to discuss bluetongue vaccination of their herds and flocks with their vets, particularly before the next active transmission period for the disease, in the spring of 2026.

Can I ask for a statement from the Cabinet Secretary for rural affairs about the heightened risk from avian flu in Wales? We've had three recent cases, of course—they're all utterly devastating for animal welfare, but for family businesses involved as well, and it has job implications for many—one of which was in my region. We've learned today that England's poultry industry has been ordered into lockdown, effectively, from Thursday, with a mandatory housing order there, to protect their birds and to protect their livelihoods. We do have a prevention zone in Wales, but, of course, we don't have the same protection because we haven't had the same announcement for Wales. So, could we have a statement from the Welsh Government so that we can understand what the plan is to avoid serious animal welfare and economic consequences from avian flu? The current strain of H5N1 has been described as the most dangerous avian flu strain ever. Do you agree that Wales needs to act now, and not leave it until it's too late?

Diolch yn fawr, Llyr Gruffydd. The Welsh Government is very clear: we take avian flu very seriously. We're working closely with the Animal and Plant Heath Agency, and other administrations, to monitor the situation in the UK and internationally. We'd like to thank poultry and captive-bird keepers across Wales for putting in place measures to keep their flocks safe from this highly infectious virus. It's essential that all bird keepers act now to check and reinforce hygiene and biosecurity measures, to protect their birds.

I'm glad I've been able to make that statement in response to you today.

I want to request two statements. The first is on highway adoption. Developers are leaving highways built not to adoptable standard. Councils do not adopt them, and residents are left with service charges for what is a council function, funded by council tax. It's not just small building firms. Barratt have left Copper Quarter in my constituency in exactly that situation, and will not negotiate with the council or reply to me.

The second statement I'm requesting is on productivity in the health service. In England, there's a plan to produce a 4 per cent year-on-year improvement in productivity and efficiency, in order to deliver the mandate from Government. Has the Welsh Government sought a 4 per cent productivity improvement? I would like the statement to include an outline of the Welsh Government's plans, including how artificial intelligence and capital spend can produce improved productivity.

Diolch yn fawr, Mike Hedges. Two very important questions. On highway adoption, if we start with that, you will be aware, I know, that the then Minister for economy and transport established an unadopted roads taskforce, back in October 2020, to look at the issues around unadopted roads in Wales. A final report was published, containing a set of recommendations, all of which were accepted by the Welsh Government. Two of their recommendations to increase the number of roads that are adopted were to develop a set of common standards to be used for new developments and to establish a good practice guide, both of which have been signed up to by all Welsh local authorities, the Federation of Master Builders and the Home Builders Federation. It's interesting, in terms of your constituency, that one of the recommendations was to provide funding for necessary works to address local unadopted road priorities. In 2023-24, Swansea Council was awarded £130,000. And indeed, although Swansea Council didn't put forward an application for funding for 2024-25, in this year the council was allocated £80,000 for that purpose.

On your issues and questions about productivity in healthcare, clearly, the NHS in Wales is delivering and making progress in savings and productivity, and it's supported by a national value and sustainability board. The ministerial advisory group work, published earlier this year, in April, sets out a number of actions to improve productivity, which are being taken forward. Because it's clear the NHS will need to continue to deliver increasing savings and actions to improve productivity as we move forward. We've increased the capital funding for the health and social care main expenditure group in 2025-26 by £115 million. That's directed at maintaining and improving the NHS estate, driving NHS productivity, investing in new equipment and digital technology, with the capital budget increasing to £614 million for this financial year, rising again for the next financial year. This is something where there is a clear focus on productivity in healthcare in Wales.

Business Minister, can I please request a Government statement on Cardiff University's financial stability? We continue to hear about the difficulties Cardiff University is facing under its current vice-chancellor, who has also recently been the subject of a vote of no confidence by its staff. Cardiff University is one of the many universities across Wales and the UK potentially facing strike action by the University and College Union, with votes being cast as we speak here today. However, Cardiff University is facing a series of unique challenges caused by a short-sighted view on how it should be run.

Take, for example, the timetabling fiasco caused by an IT system, which hadn't been tested properly, for the record—this is still unresolved. Staff are still under the threat of redundancy, with many experienced and knowledgeable staff already gone because the university isn't setting out financially sustainable options that do not equate to redundancy. Students are left with gaps in their education because of a lack of staff, and remaining staff are working under extreme pressure—this is also an issue that remains unresolved. And all this time, rather than looking at after its own students in Wales, Cardiff University has been investing in a campus in Kazakhstan. Meanwhile, cost-cutting exercises are being made to the university's Cardiff campus. This lack of financial transparency and accountability is still an unresolved issue too.

I'm sure the Cabinet Secretary is acutely aware of this situation, but I, alongside many colleagues in this Chamber, would be keen to discuss this further, so a Government statement would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.

Thank you very much, Natasha Asghar. This is an ongoing issue in terms of the pressures and the need to ensure that there is financial sustainability for our higher education sector in Wales. That is the responsibility of our Minister for Further and Higher Education, who is engaged in addressing these issues. It's important to engage at the vice-chancellor level, but also with the workforce—you've mentioned the workforce—and close working with the trade unions, of course, in terms of understanding from their perspective the pressures on the workforce. Of course, the priority for all is our learners. I'm sure you will be able to come back and follow these questions up at the next opportunity for oral Senedd questions with the Cabinet Secretary and the Minister for Further and Higher Education.

Just before recess, I asked if we could have an update on the breastfeeding strategy from the Minister for health, and the Trefnydd said that she would approach him. Since then, I've been approached in my constituency by three women who are experts on breastfeeding, having been lactation consultants and involved in the all-Wales breastfeeding forum. They're extremely concerned about the the breastfeeding lead, who has been seconded to Public Health Wales. That post is due to end at the end of this year, and there's no public assurance about what's going to happen. So, I wondered if the Trefnydd could take this up, because it's absolutely crucial that we have an impetus to increase breastfeeding and support breastfeeding in Wales, and this is causing uncertainty.

Thank you very much indeed, Julie Morgan. It is important, when you have this opportunity to raise questions in the business statement, that we follow the issues up—crucial issues like breastfeeding in Wales. I followed this up with the Cabinet Secretary following your question earlier on in this term before the recess. My understanding is that Public Health Wales is continuing to support the implementation of the breastfeeding action plan and is supporting the work on our new infant feeding action plan in Wales. To co-ordinate delivery of this, the secondment of a lead role into Public Health Wales is continuing. I'm not sure if that's the role where there were concerns raised with you from key people who have been involved for a long time in promoting and delivering the all-Wales breastfeeding plan. Public Health Wales, I understand, are currently working to make this role long term, to be able to fully implement the plan, and the lead will continue the development and implementation of the action plan for infant feeding and link the work on infant feeding into the delivery of the women's health plan. So, there are opportunities, and I hope that that's provided some reassurance, but I will take this back to confirm that this secondment is going to be extended.

Good afternoon, Trefnydd. I'd like to request a statement, please, from the Minister for culture with regard to the support and funding for Amgueddfa Cymru. I visited there yesterday and learned a lot about how they're set up. They have a pipeline of six other locations across Wales. They provide Flying Start sessions within Amgueddfa Cymru here in Cardiff, and they also engineer and produce workshops for communities, particularly those who are hard to reach. This year, they had over 1,200 people attending those workshops. It's a really valuable resource and something that actually makes us smile and brings joy to us as well—something that is really important to our lives in terms of preventative health, mental health and our emotional well-being. So, I just wondered if I could just find out a little bit more about the plans for funding resources like Amgueddfa Cymru and other arts resources as well. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Diolch yn fawr, Jane Dodds, for bringing forward such an important report of your visit to Amgueddfa Cymru. And just to highlight again what is happening in our national museums and museums across Wales, I know, and I've been assured, that Amgueddfa Cymru is seeking to embed community participation and involvement, and you've given us some great examples already today. They see this as focusing on cultural participation as a right for everyone, involving communities in developing projects with communities. You've mentioned the Flying Start sessions, producing and developing workshops, but it's developing projects with communities. Of course, this is also focused in community-focused spaces, for example like the National Waterfront Museum in Swansea and the National Wool Museum, which received the Green Flag Community Award for their garden projects. I've visited the garden project in St Fagans as well and have seen the skills, the enjoyment and also the benefits of that gardening project and the great garden that results. 

Of course, in terms of funding, the Welsh Government are committed to the publicly funded arts sector in Wales, and our funding of the culture and arts sector has seen revenue increases this year, with the Arts Council of Wales seeing a 9.2 per cent increase this year, compared to last year. And, of course, this is something where we also look to ways in which all of the arts facilities, through the widening engagement action plan with the Arts Council of Wales, can benefit from learning from those community organisations and engagements that they carry out. I think that Something New is something that is really a project that has particularly empowered individuals with learning disabilities to shape museum experiences. 

I'd like to support what Julie Morgan was raising about the importance of breastfeeding, because I attended the Bright Spots event that took place at Public Health Wales in the middle of last month, and it's perfectly clear that there's a great deal more work to be done. It was a great event for sharing good practice, but the struggle that the Vale of Glamorgan had had to have in order to get maternity care assistants to support breastfeeding amongst mothers—because midwives certainly don't have that sort of time—. We have to have the NHS providing a lot more support and not just relying on the charitable sector to train up breastfeeding support workers. So, I hope that you'll take that back. And we need to see this as being an integral part of the women's health plan, because what else is more important than that?

I'd just like to ask you to join me in giving a shout-out to Purple Tuesday, which is today. It's now in its seventh year and it's all about an international movement to improve accessibility and inclusion for all as both customers and employees. I want to congratulate St David's shopping centre in the centre of Cardiff for leading the way on having a neurodivergent-friendly event that includes many different disability groups, to help customers and employers understand the importance of ensuring that they are inclusive—organisations like AP Cymru, which organise short breaks and holidays for families with neurodivergent children. And what a great moment to be shouting out the importance of Sparrows ALN Group, that I'm sure Lindsay Whittle will continue supporting as was hugely supported by Hefin David—parents and grandparents who are providing places where neurodivergent families feel that they can go with their children, without having to feel concerned about the reaction of people who don't simply understand how to be inclusive. But there's also other organisations like Neurodivergent Friendly Cardiff and the Dewis Centre for Independent Living. So, really, this is the date to be asking how we can increase the number of level 3 Disability Confident employers with that accreditation, so that disabled people can be confident that they will be given a fair hearing if they're applying for jobs.

Thank you very much, Jenny Rathbone, and thank you for drawing attention to Purple Tuesday. I don't know how many colleagues and Members across the Senedd are aware of Purple Tuesday. It does shine a light on crucial issues around accessibility, and it is about businesses taking the lead, recognising the purple pound, the spending power of disabled people and their families that sources estimate to be a staggering £274 billion each year in the UK alone.

Thank you for drawing attention to how St David's centre is marking Purple Tuesday in many great ways, again, engaging with visitors on accessibility challenges, showcasing inclusive facilities, including changing places, toilets, calm and safe places for sensory needs, a free wheelchair and scooter hub, weekly quiet hours, and British Sign Language interpretation via the Convo app.

I think it's really important that we do praise them today, and other businesses, in that way, but I will follow this through. You will see, as far as my shortly to be published disabled people's rights plan is concerned, that we've looked at these issues, particularly in relation to Disability Confident employers. We have a working group with disabled people, as a result of our commitment to the social model of disability, to take this forward, and looking at the public sector, particularly to take the lead in terms of Disability Confident employers, but, indeed, the private sector can often lead the way.

Diolch. Prynhawn da, Trefnydd. I, too, would also second the need for an oral statement on bluetongue in this Chamber for the reasons that have been well outlined already, and I, too, also think that that should have happened, really, this week.

Can I also call, secondly, for a statement from the Cabinet Secretary for health on the shocking delays in ambulance response times and hospital handover times that people in my region are experiencing? The Deputy First Minister earlier said that the Government will make progress on it, but how will the Government make progress on this? The Senedd deserves to know on the floor of the Senedd.

At my advice surgery in Undy last week, I spoke with a constituent whose wife was lying on the floor with a suspected broken hip for almost eight hours on a cold surface before an ambulance arrived. When she finally reached hospital, she then spent nine hours stuck outside A&E at the Grange hospital in the back of an ambulance because there were no beds available. That is the reality, unfortunately, of the Welsh NHS today, a system that this Government, propped up by Plaid, has failed to fix. While we recognise that Aneurin Bevan University Health Board has taken steps to improve ambulance waits outside A&E, it is still a huge problem, and no-one should be left in agony on a cold floor for eight hours. So, can we have a statement, please, setting out what immediate action is coming from the centre, not just by health boards, but by the Welsh Government itself, alongside the Welsh Ambulance Services University NHS Trust and local health boards, to finally end these unacceptable delays? Diolch.

Our Government's bluetongue control policy has successfully delayed disease incursion until the time of year when temperatures are lower and the risk of further vector transmission is decreased, and our action protected livestock and livelihoods over the risky summer period. I, obviously, have responded to the question about why it was important to get a written statement out very quickly after that round-table discussion with those stakeholders—senior livestock and veterinary representatives—on 27 October, and recognise, as a result of those discussions, that it was an opportunity for us to also talk about the all-Wales bluetongue restricted zone, which will be declared on 10 November. It was important that information came out at that time, on 30 October, as a result of that stakeholder meeting, to ensure everyone was aware of developments.

Can I just say, in response to waiting-time statistics—and, of course, it's always regrettable to hear about unacceptable waits from people across Wales—in terms of the overall picture, I have to say, what is important is that ambulance handover delays have fallen to their lowest level in more than four years? So, there are also very good examples of the way in which the ambulance service and the NHS is responding, and we hope that that can be replicated and seen across Wales and across the service.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I'm very pleased today to mark the introduction of the Senedd Cymru (Member Accountability and Elections) Bill, one of the two final Bills of this last year of the Senedd term. The Bill’s purpose is to enhance the accountability of Members of the Senedd by strengthening the systems that regulate and sanction our behaviour and conduct. It delivers on recommendations contained in the Standards of Conduct Committee’s reports from their inquiry into individual Member accountability. I'd like, once again, to take the opportunity to thank the Chair and members of the committee for the diligent work they undertook as part of that important inquiry.

The Welsh public expect high standards of us as their representatives. When any Member fails to meet those standards, they rightly expect there to be consequences, and in cases of serious misconduct, there should be serious consequences. Within that context, Part 1 of the Bill will establish a system of recall for Members. The recall system will strengthen our accountability to those we represent. It will enhance our democracy and ensure that the electorate has the final say on whether a Member should be removed from office during a Senedd term following serious misconduct. The Bill provides for two trigger events that would lead to a Member being subject to a recall poll. The first follows a Member being convicted and sentenced to prison. This trigger dovetails with the existing provision in the Government of Wales Act  2006 that disqualifies a Member if imprisoned for over a year, ensuring that if a Member is sentenced to prison for a year or less, including suspended sentences, they would automatically be subject to a recall poll. The second trigger is that the Senedd agrees a recommendation of the Standards of Conduct Committee that a Member should be subject to a recall poll. This provides the committee with the stand-alone sanction recommended in their report, and the requirements in the Bill about the issuing of recall guidelines ensures there is transparency on how that ultimate sanction will be applied.

Dirprwy Lywydd, the recall system will be a one-stage process, as recommended by the committee. A recall poll will be held, akin to a Senedd election in a single constituency, to enable a Member’s constituents to decide whether that Member should be removed or retained. If voters decide to remove the Member, this will create a vacancy, and the seat will be filled in the usual way. In this respect, the Bill integrates the recall system with the new electoral system for Senedd elections.

Dirprwy Lywydd, Part 2 of the Bill includes measures to strengthen the Senedd’s standards process, particularly in relation to the operation of the Standards of Conduct Committee. The Bill will place the Standards of Conduct Committee on a statutory footing and enable the Senedd to appoint lay members to the Standards of Conduct Committee, bringing an element of independence and external expertise to the committee’s work. It will provide additional flexibility to the commissioner for standards in being able to carry out investigations into a Member’s conduct of their own initiative, without the need for a complaint, and it will enable the Senedd to establish an appeals mechanism in relation to proceedings about a Member's conduct. This suite of measures delivers on one of the recommendations of the committee, and takes a significant step forward in strengthening and enhancing the standards system, introducing an important element of independence to the work of the committee.

Dirprwy Lywydd, Part 3 of the Bill makes amendments to section 13 of the Government of Wales Act 2006, which provides the power to Welsh Ministers to make the rules for Senedd elections. As Members will know, these rules are set out in what is commonly known as the conduct Order. Firstly, the Bill makes amendments to clarify that the Welsh Ministers have now, and always have had, the power to create criminal electoral offences under that section. Secondly, the Bill places a duty on Welsh Ministers to make provision in the conduct Order prohibiting the making or publishing of false statements for the purpose of affecting the return of candidates at the Senedd elections. Together these provisions lay the foundations for the creation of an offence to tackle deliberate deception.

As acknowledged by the Standards of Conduct Committee, and as I have said before in this Chamber, this is incredibly complex. It isn't something we can rush. As we continue to work on the creation of the offence, there will need to be a full assessment of the impact on the justice system, consideration of any human rights implications, as well as the requirement for consultation, including a statutory consultation with the Electoral Commission. But, Dirprwy Lywydd, by including this duty in the Bill we are ensuring that the work to create the offence of deliberate deception will continue to be taken forward.

Members will be aware that time is tight for the passage of this Bill, and I appreciate that the timetable is very challenging. Following publications of the two committee reports in the spring, we have worked at some pace to bring the Bill forward to allow for scrutiny in this Senedd term. Therefore, Members will appreciate that the Bill provides for the key components of a strengthened standards system, but much of the detail that will ensure effective implementation, particularly in relation to the recall system and the running of a recall poll, will need to be delivered early in the next Senedd term.

I welcome the constructive basis on which Members with an interest in the important issues this Bill seeks to address have engaged with me so far on a cross-party basis. It's been a real pleasure and a privilege to work—. It's been very complicated, and Members have put a lot of time into it, and I'm very grateful for that time. I really hope this will continue as this important legislation progresses through the Senedd.

The Bill represents a landmark moment in this Senedd's history. It will strengthen Welsh democracy and ensure that representatives in this Siambr are held to the highest standards of accountability. Dirprwy Lywydd, I look forward to Members' questions today and to detailed scrutiny of the Bill. Diolch.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary, for your statement here this afternoon. I welcome the Government's introduction of the Bill and the intention to strengthen the accountability of Members of the Senedd. There are certainly proposals within this that mark an important step in building public trust with their elected Members. As Welsh Conservatives, we believe, though, that any good intentions must be matched by clarity, practicality, and appropriate safeguards as well.

In Part 1 of the Bill, the principle of recall for Members of the Senedd is one that we have long supported. Regarding the recall mechanism included in the Bill, we commend this move to give voters greater power to hold their elected representatives to account. The ability to remove a Member from office for failing to uphold high standards of behaviour is an important accountability mechanism that has been lacking in this Senedd for too long. And as we know, such systems are used around the world and have proven themselves to be effective. Given that changes to the voting system will mean that the public will not have the opportunity to elect individual candidates of their choice to the Welsh Parliament in the future, having a system that promotes the direct accountability of Members of the Senedd to the voters is all the more important.

As the Cabinet Secretary outlined, the draft Bill identifies two triggers for recall. Firstly, conviction and sentence of imprisonment, including suspended sentences, and, secondly, a Senedd decision following a recommendation by the standards committee that a Member should be subject to a recall poll because of serious misconduct. The principle is welcome, but the detail certainly matters. I know the Cabinet Secretary appreciates that. Clarity is needed around what will count as 'serious misconduct' and what majority will be required in a Senedd for recall recommendation. Will there be things like a minimum turnout in a recall poll and how will the mechanism work in Wales's evolving electoral system? I look forward to playing my part to help answer some of these questions, and don't necessarily expect the Cabinet Secretary to answer them all here today. And as Welsh Conservatives, we want to emphasise the need for the system to be fair, transparent and proportionate as well. I don't think any of us would wish to see a mechanism that is triggered unnecessarily, or one that penalises Members for minor or technical breaches, rather than misconduct that genuinely undermines public trust, and I think that balance is one that Members of this place will need to challenge appropriately as this Bill progresses.

The second part, which is actually Part 3 of the Bill, also addresses another important aspect of accountability—the issue of deliberate deception by Members, or, actually, what's outlined in the Bill, by candidates for elections. We certainly support the principle that dishonesty in public life must have consequences. At the same time, the definitions of what constitutes a false or misleading statement and the threshold of intent must be clear, to ensure fairness and to protect legitimate political debate. It seems almost impossible to understand how intent can be proven with some of this at the moment. Therefore, any reforms must ensure they are not simply introducing a mechanism by which political opponents may attack one another, and I look forward to seeing how the Government will provide assurances on some of these issues in regard to deliberate deception.

We know, of course, the draft Bill also strengthens the role of the standards commissioner and requires each Senedd to establish a Standards of Conduct Committee, including lay members. We would think that independence is vital to public confidence, but we need clarity on how these members are chosen, why their term is outlined as being six years when a Senedd term is four, and whether two years out of politics is really long enough before being considered eligible for a role on that committee.

On the commissioner's new power to begin investigations independently, there should be consideration of a simple safeguard, perhaps requiring a Presiding Officer or Business Committee to confirm there are proper grounds before proceeding, and to protect impartiality. Perhaps the Government may want to consider how the commissioner would certainly not be party-affiliated, would have served a previous term, or would have worked for a Member of the Senedd before appointment as well—questions that I know will be put forward formally to the Cabinet Secretary as this Bill is scrutinised.

So, in conclusion, Deputy Presiding Officer, as Welsh Conservatives, we'll scrutinise the Bill closely to ensure it is workable, fair and aligned with Wales's electoral system, with clear definitions, thresholds and safeguards. I'd also like to note there is currently, of course, a recall and removal of Members Bill progressing through the Scottish Parliament, and I'd be interested to hear from the Cabinet Secretary her view and assessment of that legislation, and what lessons may be learned, as that is being rolled through the Scottish Parliament, for us here in Wales. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Diolch, Sam. So, you've outlined a number of things; I'll just go through a few of them. I appreciate your preliminary take on where we are. I'm really looking forward to the scrutiny process for this Bill. This is quite a difficult Bill to bring forward for a Government, because it's about the conduct of the Parliament, and so we need to be very careful to ensure that the Government doesn't overstep, and the Parliament has the right level of say in that. So, that's the first complication. And then the second complication is making sure that we reflect the number of views across Wales from civic society, from the judiciary and from elsewhere. The standards committee took a lot of evidence on this, and the consensus view is it's really hard, so it's really hard to do. So, we will need to come to a consensus view across the Senedd about how this looks, but I couldn't agree more with you on the basic tenets of what you're saying.

So, a recall poll is important. It's important that it works in the Welsh context, so that people do feel that Members are accountable for their personal behaviour. We've put the poll in place as a single-stage poll at the recommendation of the committee—you took a lot of evidence on this—because of the way the new electoral system will work in Wales, and because of the way that works. And I agree with you that the triggers need to be important. So the first trigger is automatic because of imprisonment. I think everybody, probably, agrees with that one. The second one will rely on the standards committee coming forward with a scheme that would set out for the next Senedd what those behaviours look like, and for the Senedd to approve that scheme. So, that's the safeguard, if you like, so it isn't a misdemeanour or an inadvertent slip, for want of a better descriptor. And I couldn't agree with you more about the need for that to have been endorsed by this Senedd and for people to understand and take very seriously what that conduct might look like to trigger those kinds of provisions.

There were a couple of other things you said. I'm not sure I did agree with the idea that the commissioner should have to ask the Business Committee for an 'okay' to conduct an independent investigation. I think the point of the independent investigation is that it's independent. But you'd expect the commissioner to set out, in reporting on that investigation, why the commissioner thought that was important.

In terms of the terms of office, again this is something I'm really looking forward to discussing with the committee. I think a term longer than the term of the Senedd, so you get some continuity, is quite important. You wouldn't want them to be coterminous and have to set it up each time. So, a rolling programme—. You'd also perhaps want to look at slightly different terms for some of them, so you'd have continuity and not an 'all out, all in' sort of process. These are some of the things we'll need to discuss.

Similarly, the level of disqualification—two years out. There are Parliaments where nobody who has ever been an elected representative can serve as a lay member. Others have a two-year qualification. Again, it's a matter for some discussion in the committee. I think there are, as you can hear, a number of things to discuss. But from the Government's point of view, I'm very anxious to ensure that the Bill is an endorsement of the Parliament of all of the things that the committee system brings forward as amendments and so on.

This Bill intends to address, I think, the existential crisis that we're facing in democracies worldwide at the moment. There's a collapse in trust everywhere, and it's urgent, isn't it, the challenge that we're facing. So, I think the Government is to be congratulated and the Senedd should welcome, I think, any efforts to address this in our particular context.

Part of the Bill seeks to take lessons from elsewhere—parts of the Westminster system in terms of recall—and then adapt them to our context. The pioneering element in the Bill, and the one that I want to focus on in my remarks, is that to do with deliberate deception—Part 3 of the Bill. Really, here, we are at the leading edge. There are some jurisdictions—South Australia, the Australian Capital Territory—that have also made efforts in this regard, but we will be the first national Parliament to introduce the general prohibition on deliberate deception in the context of elections. We really welcome the element that creates a duty on Ministers to prohibit false or misleading statements for the purpose of electing a candidate.

In the last few weeks, we've seen deepfakes in the Irish presidential election, alleging that the successful candidate—it obviously didn't work in that context, thank goodness—had withdrawn from the election. In the Dutch election, there was a deepfake of Frans Timmermans being arrested, I think, and he did lose the election; to what extent that deepfake had an effect, who can tell at this stage? The leader of the Hungarian opposition, in the last few days, has made a criminal complaint against the chief of staff of the Hungarian Prime Minister, Viktor Orbán, for producing a deepfake where he says something about pensions policy that he didn't. So, it's happening, isn't it, and it's happening at an increasing pace, and it's happening here. I don't know if you saw, Counsel General, the remarks in the article by Yuliia Bond, who heroically—a member of the Ukrainian community in Caerphilly—talked about her experience in the election. What happened 'wasn’t democracy', she said, talking particularly about the lies about the nation of sanctuary policy:

'it was chaos built on lies. Leaflets full of hate, fear, and disinformation were pushed through people’s doors without a single barrier, without a single system to stop them.

'And when we tried to report it...we were passed around like a problem nobody wanted to own.'

What she says is, 'Look, we can't allow this to happen again.' So, one of my questions, really—. I know we've had many detailed and technical discussions on this in private, Counsel General, but members of the public will want to know why we can't put this prohibition in place for the Senedd election next year, when we're going to face a flotilla of the bot farms et cetera, and political actors with nefarious aims. Why can't we put this prohibition in place now? And I think as well, of course, there was a political agreement that two Members here were party to, and, indeed, that was actually confirmed in discussions with Jane Dodds as part of the budget agreement. That was about Members and candidates. So, we have at least a route towards creating an offence for candidates, but the Bill currently is completely silent on Members. So, will you work with us at the later stages of the Bill to ensure that there is also parity, that we also have an offence of deliberate deception for sitting Members as well?

In relation to candidates, it refers to 'before or during an election'. 'During' is fairly simple to understand, isn't it? It's after dissolution. 'Before', it would seem to me, means any time before that. Could you confirm that that is the case?

Section 22 of the Bill does allow the regulation to define what is a statement of fact. Is that broad enough to cover deepfakes, for example? And it also allows the regulation to define who it is the prohibition is targeted at, and is that going to be broad enough not just to target candidates, but also people acting as proxies on behalf of candidates—other politicians, for example, making comments for the purpose of electing a candidate, or indeed, bot farms et cetera? So, is it going to be futureproofed in terms of the technology, the medium, if you like, of the lie, but also who's saying it?

Yes, thank you, Adam. Obviously, it has been great to have a series of conversations with you and Jane in particular, and others, in the build-up to introducing this Bill, but it's clear that we've a lot of work to go. Just on that—why can't we do it for 2026—as you know, I would have really liked to do that, but, as it happens, this Bill will do Stage 4 on the very last sitting day of the Senedd. It will not receive Royal Assent until after dissolution, so I can't find any practical way of bringing something into force before it's an Act. If it's referred by anyone at all, then it's delayed even further. I've not been able to find any practical way of doing that. You know already that we've discussed this with a range of stakeholders across Wales. They are already worried about the running of the new election, because it's so different to any other election before and so on, and they were anxious, I think is the right word, about adding even more complexity to that. So, I've not been able to find a way to do that. I'm happy to continue to do it, but we simply haven't been able to find a way to do that.

The conduct Order, this time bilingual for the first time, runs to many hundreds of pages already. I think the electoral administrators in particular felt it was a step too far. I do understand the point you make, but we haven't been able to find a practical way to do that.

In terms of does it go far enough, the deepfake thing is really worrying, isn't it? Because we need to futureproof the offence so that people who couldn't possibly have understood that the thing was a deepfake and are republishing or reposting, or whatever it is, aren't caught, but somebody who did know or ought to have—. It's whether or not we want to include a sort of 'recklessness' thing, isn't it, or to have been able to make sufficient investigation to know. So, it's something we want to discuss as part of the development of the Bill, and we've discussed this ourselves.

I am really keen that an offence is futureproofed so that it does take into account technology, who the publisher is, what you can have been expected to know, and that it includes publication by proxy or agent or other things, so it can't be gamed. I don't disagree with any of that. But we need to work on that as a coherent part of the committee process to see where we can get to with that. And the same for Members. So, we've set out the candidates point on the face of the Bill at the moment; we'd be very keen to make sure that Members have an equivalent. So, there will be a standards of conduct code for Members that they will be subject to, and the recall provision will be part of that, but there's no reason why, in certain circumstances, if they've committed the basic tenets of the offence, they wouldn't be able to be held to that.

There are some competence issues here, which we'll need to discuss in the committee as well, which I have already shared with a number of Members, around the fact that we have competence over Welsh elections and their hinterland, if you like, but, as soon as you broaden it out, we stray into areas where I think you might well argue that the current Senedd doesn't have competence. So, we have to be very careful. I'm anxious that the Bill is not referred; once it's referred, we've lost it, effectively, so I'm really anxious to walk that line, if you like, between making sure that we're inside that competence envelope.

And then, just in terms of the process of that, again, as I said, we want to make sure that the Parliament owns its own processes. So, I think it'd be very important for amendments to come forward from Members of the Senedd recommending that our Parliament does things, and not the Government telling the Parliament what to do.

Counsel General, it will come as no surprise that I'm pleased to see the commitments contained within this proposed legislation. I very much believe that there is a collective will here to see our devolved democracy enhanced by making it as transparent and as accountable as possible. The element on recall—it's absolutely right that the electorate have a say in removing a Member, which, essentially, in this process, will be our ultimate sanction as part of that suite of standards of conduct that we have here in the Senedd.

I also welcome very much how you've taken on board a further range of recommendations from the Standards of Conduct Committee to improve our standards processes more broadly across the piece. I think there are opportunities there in how that fits in with some of the more overarching work we're doing to improve trust and transparency in politics, and you referenced things like having lay members to improve that independent expertise and insight and independence itself. But I think there is a real opportunity here, as the legislation develops, to continue those conversations, which I'd very much welcome, with yourself to ensure that we are able to complement and supplement the work that we're doing particularly around stronger processes for tackling sexual harassment and bullying. So, can I ask that you reaffirm that Welsh Government will commit to working with myself and the committee, specifically around that work around dignity and respect, to make sure that this legislation goes as far as it can do to support everything else that we're doing to make sure that we truly restore trust in democracy and the transparency that needs to go alongside it?

Yes, thank you very much, Hannah, for that. I absolutely will very happily make that commitment. You'll know, because we've worked on it together a number of times, that I have long felt that there's a need for different ways of dealing with things like sexual harassment in the policy. And I would very much hope that the Parliament would see its way to appointing lay members with expertise in particular areas, where there are particularly sensitive things that you need to have such expertise in in order to be able to come to a proper conclusion. And it's absolutely essential that that is seen as independent of the political process, if you like, for that reason, not least because we want people who work in and around politics and in and around our Parliament to feel safe and to feel that there is a reporting mechanism that they can rely on.

I would not be at all surprised to find that amendments come forward during the passage of this Bill around other automatic triggers for recall. So, we've put the obvious one in, but there's nothing to stop members of the committee discussing and taking evidence on other automatic triggers. So, people being found guilty of other egregious offences might well trigger an automatic recall petition, and that's something to be discussed, it seems to me, in the committee. And then to make sure that there is that equivalence for candidates and Members over the overlapping period as well—I think we all think that that's very important. I think, as well, because of your standards committee report, looking at how an appeals mechanism might work and how independent that might be inside the process and whether that should or shouldn't be mandatory will be very interesting indeed. In the Bill at introduction, these are all enabling powers, because we feel very strongly that the Parliament should make up its own mind.

Can I say thank you so much to you, Counsel General, for your commitment to processing this legislation and to working with us as well?

For those of us who are standing in 2026 and hope to be re-elected, I can speak personally that it weighs really heavily on me what that four years could involve up until 2030. Of course, we don't know what the political picture will be, but, in those four years, there will currently be no sanctions for those Members who deliberately deceive. We have heard from Adam some examples internationally, and we don't want to see them in Wales, but one of the issues that stops people is having consequences. For me, introducing the deliberate deception element of it in 2030 is doing something after the horse has bolted from the stable door, or whatever the phrase is.

So, I would just like to put on record—and I'm hoping that your answer will be 'yes'—that you will continue to meet with those of us who want to perhaps put forward constructive suggestions of how we may be able to introduce this in 2026 for Members, so that we may feel safer in the four years going to 2030. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Yes. So, I have said before, Jane, and I am happy to say it on the record, that if we can find a way to do it, then we are happy to find that way. We haven't been able to find a way to do it, but if there is a way to do it and we can find it, then sure. I'm happy to say that. I don't want to give false hope, though. I have not been able to find that way, and neither have any of our officials. But if a way can be found, then I'm sure that the committee will want to look into that as well.

Just to say as well that I think what the Bill will do is make it mandatory for this to happen in the next Senedd. So, this will not be something that another Government can just say, 'Oh, no, we don't want to do that.' They would have to repeal the Bill—or the Act, as we hope it will be by then. That is a much higher bar to not doing something. So, they will have to do that. As such, it puts some protections in place. So, it's not that nothing is happening, but I'm afraid that, given the time pressure and all the rest of it, we have not been able to find a way, so far, to do that.

As drafted, the Bill provides that if you're convicted, then you are automatically subject to the recall petition. A recall petition, of course, isn't an automatic disqualification. Your constituents may decide not to take you out, so it's up to your constituents whether you can put a case to them that you're able to appeal through the process.

The Bill does not wait until the appeals process is finished. That might take longer than a Senedd term, in fact. So, some appeals can take years and years and years. That's in common with other systems, in fact. Most systems do it on the first conviction and not subject to appeal. Obviously, if, eventually, you are exonerated, then you can stand again.

It's important to remember that a recall provision isn't an automatic disqualification. It's a way of going back to your electorate and asking your electorate for a view as to whether your conduct is such that they don't want you to represent them. But the Bill, as drafted, is on that initial conviction, yes. That's in common with other systems of that sort.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I very much welcome the introduction of this Bill and look forward to scrutinising the legislation as a committee member. Democracy is vital for society. As you stated yesterday, in your written statement, the Bill will build much stronger foundations for our democracy. As Adam Price has already said, this is urgent in the current political climate.

Previously, the Standards of Conduct Committee recommended that the Welsh Government should consider introducing a legislative mechanism to enable Senedd Cymru to establish an appeals process. My view is that this is an appropriate legislative vehicle, and that it does provide the opportunity to introduce a mandatory appeals process.

I've heard what you've said to colleagues already about the Government—it's quite complex, isn't it—not being too prescriptive, because this is a matter for Parliament. But would you consider placing an appeals process on the face of the Bill, rather than it being a matter for the Senedd to introduce an appeals process in a more flexible way?

Diolch, Lesley. I think that is one of the things we’ll very much want to explore in the committee. As I said, this is a Bill for the Parliament to set its own set of standards, and the Government is enabling that discussion to happen. But I wouldn’t be at all surprised to find that, at the other end of this process, a large number of these things have become mandatory and on the face of the Bill. But I very strongly feel that it is for the Parliament and the committee, which I know you’re going to serve on, to come to those conclusions itself, and recommend them to the Senedd, rather than a Government telling a Parliament how to behave.

On a personal level, and not as a member of the Government, I have long thought that such an appeals process should be in place. And, as I said in answer to the Chair of the Standards of Conduct Committee, particularly for offences where you might think a level of expertise is necessary in dealing with particularly complex types of allegations—sexual harassment is one of them, but some kinds of fraud might also fall into that kind of category. So, having a set of lay members in place that can be drawn on for expertise and so on, not necessarily as a standing panel, is one of the things that I hope the committee will explore.

Dirprwy Lywydd, diolch yn fawr. Yesterday, the Development of Tourism and Regulation of Visitor Accommodation (Wales) Bill was introduced to the Senedd. The Bill comprises five Parts, two Schedules, and is set out in 60 sections. The Bill aims to improve, maintain and promote visitor accommodation in Wales.

Dirprwy Lywydd, tourism plays an important part in the Welsh economy, and particularly in some parts of our country. Successive Welsh Governments have invested in the industry and promoted it as a destination for visitors from within Wales, and far beyond. The Bill is rooted in this wider approach. It creates a code of Welsh law on tourism, restating and modernising the general tourism development functions of the Welsh Ministers, and ensuring that the industry benefits from a clear, accessible, bilingual and contemporary legislative basis.

As Members here will know, the Bill is a companion piece to the Visitor Accommodation (Register and Levy) Etc. (Wales) Act 2025, as passed by this Senedd earlier this year. That Act provided for the registration of all visitor accommodation in Wales. This Bill provides that, in future, such accommodation should be licensed, starting with self-contained, self-catering businesses. The Welsh Revenue Authority has responsibility for creating and managing the register, and it is my intention that the WRA should also manage the online portal for licensing. In this way, accommodation providers will have a single place to go, to manage both their registration and their licence obligations.

Dirprwy Lywydd, the Bill establishes the concept of 'fitness for visitor accommodation', setting out the standard that most visitor accommodation should already be meeting, and that visitors would already expect. This is a translation of the concept of 'fitness for human habitation' from housing law into the particular context of visitor accommodation.

As a general condition, that accommodation must be of a standard, for example in relation to structural stability or hygiene, so that it does not pose a risk of harm to visitors or compromise their experience through loss of amenity. Five specific, documentable conditions will then need to be met in the self-contained, self-catering sector, where an accommodation provider will be required to have in place a current gas safety certificate, an electrical safety certificate, an insurance certificate, and confirmation that a fire risk assessment and smoke and carbon monoxide alarms have also been secured.

The Bill sets out an enforcement regime for those who fail to meet its requirements. However, the approach is rooted in proportionality, based on information, education, encouragement and escalation, preceding the use of enforcement powers. It's my belief, Dirprwy Lywydd, that the vast majority of accommodation providers will be keen to remedy any problems identified well before the need to take enforcement action is reached. However, it is right that where breaches are persistent or repeated, an enforcement regime of warnings, remedial notices, penalties and prosecution is in place in order to protect the integrity of the licensing system.

All of this will give confidence to visitors and address concerns that the accommodation market is distorted by the differential extent to which providers understand and comply with their existing obligations. This is a particular issue for those businesses who do everything they can do to do the right thing, including bearing the cost of meeting statutory obligations. Local authorities in Scotland, where a licensing scheme is already in place, for example, report that significant numbers of applicants were unable to demonstrate that they met their regulatory requirements when the Scottish licensing scheme was introduced.

Dirprwy Lywydd, as Members know, the visitor levy Act requires the Welsh Revenue Authority to create a register of all visitor accommodation providers and all accommodation offered by each of them in Wales. Section 36 of this Bill places an equivalent requirement on the Welsh Ministers to produce a register of licensed visitor accommodation in Wales. Section 45 places a duty on both the Welsh Revenue Authority and the Welsh Ministers jointly to produce a publicly available directory, bringing together both registers. Accommodation providers and platforms will be required to include registration numbers and a link to that directory in all their advertising, so that any visitor to Wales or within Wales can be confident that their accommodation meets the legal obligations. In doing so, as I said, Dirprwy Lywydd, the Bill creates a level playing field in which all businesses must meet their requirements in order to obtain a licence, protecting the position of the many compliant businesses in the process.

Dirprwy Lywydd, the Bill also creates a more level playing field between short and long-term letting. As it stands, if an individual chooses to let a property to a long-term tenant, that person must register as a landlord, obtain a licence themselves or through an appointed agent, and ensure that statutory obligations are being met. By contrast, should the same individual choose to let out a property to visitors on a short-term basis, it can simply be listed on an online platform and bookings can immediately start to be taken. Over this term, a series of measures will have been introduced to ensure a proper balance between a thriving visitor economy and those communities that welcome visitors to their midst. That balance has to include a more consistent approach to the requirements placed on those who offer accommodation on a short and long-term basis. As in long-term letting, therefore, the Bill makes it clear that, as well as needing to obtain a licence, self-contained, self-catering accommodation providers are directly responsible to their visitors for providing accommodation in which it is fit for them to stay.

Dirprwy Lywydd, the Welsh Government's aim in this Bill is to endorse the efforts of those many businesses in the sector that work hard to create a mutually supportive relationship, which celebrates Welsh culture, language and landscapes, which brings money into communities, and offers genuine careers that support people to build their lives in their home communities. Ensuring greater parity between short and long-term letting is part of the effort to support those mutually supportive relationships on which the successful future of tourism inevitably depends. Further, to support those efforts, the Bill contains an express power to issue a code of practice and guidance as part of its restatement of functions under the Development of Tourism Act 1969.

The policy intention here is to develop a broad suite of best practice guidelines for the sector. While there will be specific guidance published alongside the licensing scheme, over time, the code of practice will create a single suite of information, guidance and best practice for both existing and prospective businesses in Wales, assisting the industry in its efforts to promote the development of Welsh tourism. Should the Bill be endorsed by the Senedd, some three quarters of visitor accommodation providers in Wales will be subject to the licensing conditions outlined earlier in this statement.

But the Bill does not end there. It creates a capacity for a future Senedd to add further types of visitor accommodation to the licensing regime, and to develop the licensing requirements themselves to meet future needs. Any such proposals, Dirprwy Lywydd, would of course be subject to the scrutiny of a future Senedd. The point of the Bill as drafted is to futureproof the legislation, creating a path further to support the industry when that is thought to be desirable.

I cautiously welcome the introduction of the Development of Tourism and Regulation of Visitor Accommodation (Wales) Bill, although I'm sure you could have come up with a snappier title for it. As you rightly said, tourism does play a vital role in Wales's economy, particularly in those rural and coastal communities where few alternative industries remain. The restatement and modernisation of Ministers' tourism development functions, and the ambition to provide a clear, bilingual and accessible—and this is an important point—legislative framework are positive steps. The intention to create a single online portal through the Welsh Revenue Authority for registration and licensing should also help reduce duplication for accommodation providers.

Where I do wish to strike a note of caution, however, is in how the licensing system is implemented in practice. You spoke of 'fitness for visitor accommodation' and the proportionate enforcement regime rooted in information, education and encouragement. I agree entirely that most providers already meet these standards and will respond constructively to the guidance. But the wide-ranging enforcement powers proposed, particularly entry to private premises and the seizure of documents, must be accompanied by robust safeguards to prevent overreach. So, Cabinet Secretary, can you clarify what protections will be in place to ensure these powers remain proportionate, transparent and subject to oversight?

I also want to touch on the proposed directory bringing together the Welsh Revenue Authority register and the new licensing register. Transparency is welcome and guests should absolutely be able to verify that accommodation is legitimate. But, as drafted, booking platforms could be held legally liable if a host inputs an incorrect registration number—information entirely out of the booking platform's control. I appreciate your objective of creating a level playing field, but we must avoid creating a system where platforms are penalised for information they cannot reasonably verify. So, how will you commit to resolving this during the Bill's passage?

Cabinet Secretary, you highlighted the Bill's aim of fairness between short and long-term letting. While consistency is important, we also need to recognise the real profile of most Welsh hosts. Data from Airbnb suggests that the majority list only one property and earn around £6,000 a year, with many relying on that income to cope with living costs, and others working in additional jobs as well. These are not commercial operators exploiting the loophole; they are local people contributing to the visitor economy and warmly welcoming guests to Wales. So, how are you ensuring that the licensing system properly distinguishes between the large-scale operators and those individuals simply sharing their homes or one other property to make ends meet?

This is particularly important given the headwinds that the sector has already faced: the 182-night threshold for business rates, the prospect of a tourism tax and now the UK Government's proposals for an EPC requirement for self-catering lets. Whatever one's view of each measure, taken together they have created a suite of changes within one sector in an incredibly quick amount of time. We must be careful not to impose further burdens that drive those small operators, those legitimate businesses, out of the sector entirely. That is why licensing fees must be proportionate to the scale of operation and why the system must be simple, digital and consistent across Wales. The 80-day approval period for new licences and annual renewals risks creating delay and cost for both local authorities and hosts. For small, seasonal providers in particular, this could mean lost income and uncertainty. Will you reflect on whether these time frames and renewal cycles could be streamlined?

In your statement, you referenced the Scottish experience, and it's right to learn from it. In Scotland, a significant proportion of applicants could not evidence compliance when licensing began. But we should also acknowledge the unintended consequences seen elsewhere, internationally. In Spain, over 66,000 properties were removed from platforms after stricter rules were introduced, which has inevitably pushed up prices. In Edinburgh, hotel prices have increased while visitor numbers have fallen. How is the Welsh Government planning on publishing an impact assessment on how similar models have affected tourism elsewhere and how the proposed changes here would impact the tourism sector in Wales?

And finally, Dirprwy Lywydd, I welcome the reference to the importance of a visitor economy that celebrates the Welsh language, our culture and our landscape. That balance between thriving tourism and thriving communities is shared across the Siambr. But tourism is not merely an industry in those areas, it is a lifeline. If regulation becomes overbearing, we risk hollowing out the very communities we are trying to protect. So, while I support the Bill's objectives, I look forward to scrutinising it closely over the next couple of months and look forward to working constructively with you, Cabinet Secretary, towards that goal. Diolch.

Thank you for the cautious welcome that you provided and the endorsement of some aspects of the Bill—the codification of existing law making it more accessible, the single point of access to registration and licensing through the WRA.

In terms of some of the more specific questions, the enforcement regime is absolutely designed to be proportionate and light touch. There are a series of steps that the licensing authority would have to go through before you ever got to prosecution. I think that prosecution will be very rare indeed. The aim of the Bill is not to have prosecution. The aim of the Bill is to encourage people to comply with the requirements and to make it as easy as possible for them to do that. But the Bill does set out the obligations on the licensing authority in relation to making sure that remedial notices, for example, are provided, opportunities for visitor accommodation providers to remedy breaches before you would ever get to the point where a licence might be revoked.

I don't myself think it's unreasonable to expect booking platforms to take responsibility for publishing accurate information. It will not be difficult to check the information, because the registration number will be there on the register for anybody to look at. If it's a simple mistake, if somebody has just passed you the wrong information, the Bill deals with that by allowing people to put it right as soon as it's brought to their attention. It isn't the purpose of the Bill to pursue people who've made honest mistakes and are relying on the information provided by others. But given that, that number is the way in which a visitor is then able to check that that advert is genuine, that the accommodation that's being offered has been properly licensed. I wouldn't be prepared to give up on saying that booking platforms themselves must take responsibility for the information that they provide.

I take the point that Sam Kurtz made, Dirprwy Lywydd, about the nature of small-scale operators in Wales. That's why we have deliberately started this licensing regime by requiring people to do the things they are already required to do. Of the five specific conditions, four of them are already legal obligations, whether you're a small provider or not. It's equally important to somebody staying in a small provider that the fire regulations have been properly observed, that the electricity supply is in good order, as it is if you're staying in a large provider. So, we start with the things people ought already to be doing. We believe that the vast majority are already doing it.

But you'll have heard, Sam, as well, complaints from legitimate businesses in the industry that the growth of online platforms has allowed people to enter the market sometimes simply unaware of what it is they ought to be doing. They then don't bear the costs that other people bear, and they undercut those legitimate businesses. And actually, if some people chose not to carry on in the industry because they weren't prepared to do those basic things, I'm not sure I would shed that many tears by their decision that there's something else they'd rather do and those bookings will go to those businesses who do all the things that they're expected to do. Because we are requiring businesses essentially to do the things they ought to be doing already, plus making sure that they have public liability insurance, that's why we are sure that we can keep licensing fees to around£ £75. I think they're at the modest end of what might have been expected. 

I agree with what the Member said, Dirprwy Lywydd. The system is designed to be simple, it's designed to be digital. I hope we will be able to use many of the new techniques that artificial intelligence allows, so that things can be automatically uploaded, automatically checked. The system will be done very quickly. If there are delays in there, then the Bill allows for both transitional and provisional licences to be issued, to make sure people aren't disadvantaged because of delays beyond their control. But my expectation is that we build the system, using all the modern technology available to us, so that it's simple, quick, easy to use, and then that allows people who get the licence to advertise that, so that visitors to their premises know that they're going somewhere where all those proper protections are in place.

I've been grateful for the conversations that we've had in the lead-up to today around this Bill. We on these benches welcome the importance this Bill places on ensuring that people staying in short-term accommodation in Wales are safe. Creating that reputation will ideally result in more people coming to visit. We all know already the importance of our tourism sector, as has been set out by Sam Kurtz and a number of other Members in this Chamber over the last couple of months, and we know how central small businesses are to the sector.

Tourism industries accounted for 11.8 per cent of employment in Wales in 2022, and tourism-related industries contributed 5.1 per cent to GVA in Wales in the same year. So, it is vital for the health of our tourism industry that, when people come to Wales, they know their accommodation has a high safety standard. We believe, actually, this Bill is an important step in realising this and ensuring that this all-important sector maintains those high standards.

I'm glad the Cabinet Secretary has recognised the importance of keeping this system simple, that our tourism sector isn't too burdened by this process, as well as ensuring that the costs of these regulations aren't too high. I'm sure a lot of people will welcome what the Cabinet Secretary has said, that the Bill isn't about prosecuting providers who have made genuine mistakes in their registration. I think, actually, in theory, when you look at the Bill and what it sets out, most, if not all, accommodation providers would be looking to maintain or at least stick to the standards set out by this Bill as a way to ensure that their visitors know that they're coming to a safe place. So in large part, this Bill would be self-regulating.

Vitally, our communities also need to be a priority in this Bill. A thriving and vibrant community will only serve to improve the experience of those visiting, so tourism should work in harmony with those communities. So, could the Cabinet Secretary explain what the Bill does to see that relevant accommodations comply with these regulations, thereby ensuring that high safety standards are secured across Wales, and how the Bill will put communities at its heart?

Diolch yn fawr, Luke Fletcher. Thank you for the opportunity to discuss the Bill prior to its introduction. I agree entirely with what Luke Fletcher said. The Bill is about endorsing the reputation of the industry and allowing the industry to use a licensing system to give confidence to visitors, so people who visit within Wales and to Wales know that they are coming to somewhere where their safety is properly regarded and where there is certification of the actions that people already take.

How will the Bill be regulated? I think Luke Fletcher is right: it will largely be self-regulation, because most people in the industry want to do these things anyway, and will demonstrate that through the actions they have already taken. But there will also be, I believe, a significant element of citizen regulation, because obviously these are places that people visit.

I took the chance at the weekend, when I was preparing for today, to ask Copilot to give me a report of what the online platform feedback from visitors to Wales tells us people think of the accommodation. Within 30 seconds it had looked through all those feedback forms and had given me a report highlighting the different concerns that people have highlighted. The wealth of citizen information in an industry like tourism is now extraordinary, compared to what it would have been when you put a couple of comments in a visitors book all those years ago. I think, when people know that there is a licensing regime, when they see that number on the advert and so on, they will know that their feedback is genuinely influential in the way that the industry is going to be managed in the future.

And then finally, a very important point that Luke Fletcher made: this is an industry that depends upon good relations with the host communities where visitors come but other people live the whole of their lives. Luke Fletcher referred to employment in the industry. I think the future of Welsh tourism is one in which a quality product will provide employment not just seasonally, but year round, and where people see employment in tourism not as a stopgap, something you do while you are looking for something better, but something where you can see a career path in front of you. That really does depend on there being a sustainable relationship between the tourism industry and those host communities.

We know that the very rapid growth of short-term letting has had the effect in some places of meaning that there aren’t places for people who want to live there all year round to rent or to buy. There has been significant action, often jointly between parties in this Senedd during this Senedd term, to create that more level playing field. This Bill contributes to that, because the requirements you will have to undertake as a landlord if you are letting on a short-term basis will now much more closely parallel the requirements you have to undertake if you are to let on a long-term basis, removing an incentive for people to let on a short-term basis because they think that’s an easier regulatory route for them. That was never the intention. This Bill puts it right. I think it will add to that sense of a harmonious relationship between the industry and the place that it depends upon.

Thank you for your statement, Cabinet Secretary. The registration of visitor accommodation legislation is very welcome, as Scotland and Northern Ireland already have licensing in place. I know that the UK Government is also considering introducing such regulations. I am sure you agree that it would not be right if Wales were the only country in the UK without such a scheme. Visitors wouldn’t know if the accommodation they were staying in was of a high standard of maintenance, or even if there was compliance with fitness standards. If we don't have this legislation, I believe our tourism industry would be negatively impacted, something I'm sure no-one in this Chamber would want to see.

I thank Lesley Griffiths for that point, and as a Member who represents a part of Wales right along the border, I know she's often very well attuned to the way the different regimes influence people's behaviour. And she's quite right, Dirprwy Lywydd, to point to the fact that since we made our commitment to bring forward this legislation, the new UK Government has also made a commitment to register short-term lets in England as well. Northern Ireland have had a scheme for decades. The Scottish scheme is now fully up and running as of this year. There will be a scheme in England. We cannot afford, for the industry's sake, that Wales would be left as the only place without a legally based scheme. People visiting any other part of the United Kingdom would have safeguards in place. Wales would be the only place you could come to without that confidence. That surely isn't in the interests of the industry, and it's a very important point that the Member makes.

So, Dirprwy Lywydd, Siân Gwenllian is right that the Bill does not, at present, deal directly with some of those points she made. The regime it sets out will allow people to make complaints about their accommodation in their communities and will allow Ministers to consider whether further assessment is necessary before issuing a licence where those concerns come to the surface.

There are, however, provisions in the Bill that would allow us to consider whether more could be done to address the sorts of circumstances that Siân Gwenllian has highlighted. A number of Members this afternoon have emphasised the process of scrutiny and the way that that can improve the Bill. I look forward to further conversations about ways in which the problem that the Member has highlighted could be addressed, either through the Bill or through the planning system, or through a combination of both, and to working with Members across the Chamber. I've said many times, Dirprwy Lywydd, that I've never been involved in a Bill that wasn't improved by the process of scrutiny, and I've no doubt that this will be a Bill that will benefit from the work that Members across the Chamber will do over the weeks ahead.

Diolch yn fawr, Deputy Llywydd. Skills are the backbone of Cymru's economic resilience and future prosperity. Whether it’s supporting our communities to successfully adapt to a just transition, unlocking the potential of digital innovation and artificial intelligence, or preparing our young people for their future careers, investing in people is how we build a fairer, stronger Wales.

The Welsh Government remains committed to ensuring that everyone in Cymru can access meaningful work, develop their potential and contribute to a thriving economy. It’s about making sure everyone has the opportunity to succeed, wherever they live in Wales and whatever their circumstances or background. Working Wales offers tailored support to help individuals find and stay in work, and our young people’s guarantee ensures everyone under 25 has access to work, education or training. We continue to work with our delivery partners—Medr, further education and higher education colleges, and regional skills partnerships—to foster a culture of lifelong learning and upskilling. We are also promoting fair work and tackling economic inequality through targeted support to under-represented groups and those with long-term health conditions. We’re also backing Welsh workers and employers every step of the way through smart, targeted investment in skills that help both people and businesses to thrive and grow.

Llywydd, I wanted to take the opportunity today to update Members on the flexible skills programme, one of our flagship skills initiatives that is supporting Welsh businesses to invest in themselves and build a stronger, more skilled workforce. Now, whilst this programme has been supporting upskilling training for over a decade, this year we have scaled up the offer, and the response from businesses has been phenomenal. This response has been no surprise to me. It's my background as an engineer and a former apprentice that convinced me that this was the right path to take.

Llywydd, back in May I was delighted to mark the launch of the enhanced programme with a visit to IQ Endoscopes in Chepstow. They are a pioneering medical device start-up that has seen first-hand what a difference this funding can make, supporting over 170 individual technical or leadership and management training opportunities for its staff over the past two years. So far in this financial year, 164 applications to the flexible skills programme have been approved, supporting over 10,500 individual upskilling or training interventions. That’s over 150 individual businesses across every sector in Wales benefiting from funding from the Welsh Government to cover 50 per cent of accredited training costs. Businesses of every size and shape and from every local authority area in Wales have benefited from the flexible skills programme. We've supported Newport-based company Bisley to undertake training across their manufacturing, customer service, logistics, engineering and design departments. They've reported improved productivity, stronger leadership capabilities, lower turnover rates and successful expansion into new markets as a result. We've supported Cardiff-based digital and technology company Box UK to undertake targeted training across multiple disciplines, including technical skills for developers, user experience designers, product owners and systems engineers. They welcomed the impact of the funding, stretching their internal training budget and enabling more employees to access high-quality, role-specific training. Llywydd, both companies also praised the excellent, clear and efficient service provided to them by Business Wales and the ease and simplicity of the application process.

Llywydd, we are also aligning our investment with the activity in the Wrexham and Flintshire investment zone, in recognition of the critical importance of skills in enabling the transformation of north-east Wales into a hub for advanced manufacturing, innovation and high-quality employment. Over £1.25 million of the flexible skills programme has been approved in Flintshire and Wrexham alone in diverse sectors including aerospace, manufacturing, automotive, pharmaceuticals, engineering and forestry. This investment builds on the reputation for world-class and high-skilled manufacturing that north-east Wales already has.

Just last week I had the opportunity to visit Kronospan, a leading manufacturer of wood-based panels for furniture, retail and DIY in Chirk. I visited to find out more about the training that they've undertaken with the support of the flexible skills programme. Thanks to the programme, Kronospan has facilitated enhanced skills training for over 200 employees, encompassing operations and office-based skills. I was delighted to see first-hand how the flexible skills programme is helping businesses across Wales access the training and expertise that they need to grow sustainably and provide high-quality jobs.

Llywydd, a huge strength of the programme is its responsiveness to businesses, to business demand and business change. Employers can choose their own accredited training providers and there is a simple, quick and streamlined application process via Business Wales. We've made it easier than ever before for employers to access upskilling support, because we know that the ability to undertake timely, flexible training is key to businesses' ongoing successes.

In closing, Presiding Officer, I would like to take the opportunity to urge all Members across the Chamber to share and promote this programme, to consider how they can help ensure employers in their own constituencies and regions explore how the flexible skills programme can support and strengthen their workforce. Whether it's looking to fill skills gaps, retain staff or attract new talent, the flexible skills programme can help any business invest in its future, and by empowering individuals with the right skills and opportunities, we're not just preparing for tomorrow, we're actively shaping it across Cymru. Diolch yn fawr.

Can I thank the Minister for his statement today on the flexible skills programme and indeed his personal commitment to improving skills provision across Wales? The Minister is right to say that skills are the backbone of Wales's economic resilience and future prosperity, and that investing in people is essential if we are to build a fairer and stronger Wales. Ensuring that everyone can access meaningful work and develop their potential is an ambition shared across this Chamber.

Minister, you highlighted the expansion of the programme this year, describing the response from businesses as, I believe, 'phenomenal'—quite the superlative. The increase in funding from £1.3 million to over £7.5 million clearly shows that employers want to invest in their workforce. The examples you gave—Bisley in Newport, Box UK in Cardiff, and also up in north Wales in the investment zone—are welcome. But as with any significant public investment, we must ensure that spending delivers measurable impact and long-term value. There was reference to the more than 10,500 upskilling interventions approved this financial year, and support for over 160 businesses across every local authority. Those headline numbers are positive, but we need to know how this translates into outcomes. So, Minister, can you set out the evidence of impact? Specifically, have businesses seen measurable improvements in productivity, staff retention or progression as a result? How many individuals have gained qualifications that have directly improved career prospects or, indeed, their wages? And how is the Government tracking outcomes beyond the training itself?

The programme rightly priorities key sectors such as engineering, manufacturing and digital, but it is vital that we also focus on those sectors facing the most acute workforce pressures, particularly social care and construction. So, Minister, can you confirm how many employers in those two sectors have benefited to date, and whether there is targeted outreach to improve engagement?

I also want to touch on the wider skills landscape linked to Wales's major economic opportunities. The Celtic Freeport is expected to play a central role in Wales's transition to low-carbon energy, with the potential to create thousands of jobs in floating offshore wind, hydrogen and advanced manufacturing. But, to maximise that opportunity, we will need a workforce with specialist skills, not only in the emerging sectors, but also in the traditional industries that underpin them, because Wales has a proud history in oil and gas, and there are highly skilled workers in those sectors whose expertise will be essential to delivering that just transition. Their skills in engineering, project management, operations and safety must not be lost. So, how is the flexible skills programme supporting workers in the oil and gas sector and the supply chain to retrain, reskill and transfer their expertise into the industries of the future without throwing the baby out with the bathwater, knowing the importance of those industries to our current economic fortunes in Wales?

And turning to the rural economy, the Minister said this programme is benefiting businesses of every size and shape across Wales, yet many land-based and agricultural businesses do not feel the scheme is designed specifically with them in mind. The median age of a lead decision maker on a Welsh farm is now 61, and only 3 per cent of heads of holdings are under 35—startling figures that point to a looming skills crisis. Because farming, forestry and land use are grouped under the category titled 'net zero', but many farmers seeking training in business management, technology, food production or diversification may not see themselves reflected there. So, Minister, how many farming or land-based businesses have accessed the programme to date, and will you review the categorisation and promotion to ensure that young farmers and new entrants understand that the scheme is for them, not only for environmental skills, but also for the core skills needed to run a modern farm business?

Accessibility also remains an issue. While the 50 per cent co-funding model may work for larger employers, small and micro businesses, often those most in need of support, may struggle to fund the remaining half. So, has the Government considered more flexible co-funding arrangements or staged payments for small and medium-sized enterprises and microbusinesses?

Minister, you said that by empowering individuals with the right skills, Wales is not just preparing for tomorrow, but actively shaping it. I agree. But if this programme is to live up to that promise, it must reach all sectors of the economy—those growing, those under pressure and those transitioning. That means our industrial heartlands and rural communities, our high-tech sectors and our family-run firms, and, yes, the skilled workers in our oil and gas industries, whose expertise will be crucial in building brighter futures. Investment in skills is one of the most powerful tools we have to strengthen the Welsh economy. So, let us ensure this programme is genuinely flexible, fair and delivering for everyone across Wales. Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd.

Can I thank Sam Kurtz for the series of questions and his always constructive feedback on these matters? And I do welcome his ongoing commitment to building skills for the future of Wales. I think the Member said it was a shared ambition, and it certainly is; I can see that.

Just a point to the Member: this reaches far wider than just north-east Wales and some of the businesses that we mentioned. In every single local authority area, there have been businesses that have received funding through this programme, and it's an investment from business themselves. They should want to invest in their own workforce, and they actively are doing so. The feedback that we've had from businesses in the enhanced programme has been very, very promising, and I encourage him maybe just to pick up on the north Wales skills portal article, which says about north Wales businesses across the country who've accessed flexible support, and what business leaders are saying. They're saying it provides that very specific training that they need to grow their businesses further, as the Member pointed out, to improve productivity in certain areas, and then to retain talent and invest in their own workforce. That article sets out quite clearly that we are doing that in north Wales and it's repeated across the country as well. I mentioned Box UK being one of them and I mentioned Bisley in my opening statement there. What's very important when it points to the overall programme—. There are lots of sectors that are already involved in the programme. It's a flexible programme. It listens to industries' needs. When I was in Kronospan just last week, I asked them, 'What have you used it for?' and one of the parts they've used it for is to train 20 maintenance engineers—the mechanical fitters—to learn new skills in welding. Sam and I have had conversations about lots of welding opportunities for us. But that's exactly what the business needed. We've responded to that programme. And I think they've responded well because of the challenge there.

And what I would say to all businesses across Wales, and it's part of the reason I brought forward this statement today, is: have a conversation with the team in Business Wales to see if this is right for you. It's very flexible in what it sets out to do. The approval rate and turnaround time is on average two and a half days, so it's a quick system to get that through and checked. And then if there are individual businesses—. I know the Member mentioned rural affairs. If he wanted to have a conversation with me separately to that and to point me to an individual business, I'm happy for an official to consider that. It's not just the key priority sectors that this fund is for. They're highlighted because they're key priority growth sectors. I recognise that there are more sectors that need support, and there are opportunities within this programme.

I just wanted to take the point, Chair, on a just transition and the oil and gas industry. Sam Kurtz, particularly on skills, but in his own region as well, does champion the industries that are important in that local area. He says, 'How do we make sure those people and their skill sets aren't lost in the future, and the upskilling opportunities?' I think that's exactly what this programme does. Businesses in that sector can look to the future: 'What skills do we need to have? How do we upskill our staff in that?' There are lots of examples out there. I think this is a real success so far. There is money to be spent by the end of the financial year this year, and I hope, with the budget going through—it's already outlined in the draft budget—for a programme to continue in the next year, because it responds to industry needs. They're not the words of me. But those short, sharp type courses, what businesses want, businesses are getting. So, I'd encourage the Member to do that. I'm happy to pick up a wider conversation on rural affairs with him. It's an important sector to the Welsh economy. We recognise that and if we can do more in that area, then we would want to.

Much like Sam Kurtz, I don't doubt the Minister's commitment to the skills agenda here in Wales. I think the flexible skills programme is one of those positive stories that we have within our skills ecosystem within Wales.

One thing I just want to pick up on in the closing part of the Minister's statement is that a huge strength of the flexible skills programme is its responsiveness to business demand and change. That, of course, sounds very responsive rather than proactive, and one of the things I would just put to the Minister is that a constant ask or call or conversation item with FE providers and businesses is that they need, yes, that flexibility, that ability to go to Government and see Government as an enabler, but they also need that leadership from Government as well. One criticism I heard again at the Electrical Contractors' Association conference just a few days ago in Cardiff was that there's still a prevailing feeling amongst businesses and FE providers that they're not all in the room at the same time discussing how we can resolve some of those challenges that we are facing within the skills system here in Wales. Some of those challenges are partly funding, partly structural.

If I was to tackle the funding first, Sam Kurtz is right. Funding has gone up for the flexible skills programme and that shows the desire and the need of businesses to be able to access that funding to get the ability to re-skill their workforce when we look towards stuff like a just transition and the move to net zero. And we've seen in the budget that the increase in the skills agenda is welcomed by FE providers, but we're hearing constantly again, 'It's not enough money to be able to achieve what we want to achieve.' Now, I'm not going to stand here and say to the Minister that he must give more money from the budget or the unallocated budget to the skills programme. What I'm actually more interested in discussing with the Minister is how we actually can find money that's already in the system and use it in a different way. So, for example, we've had conversations around how city deals can play a part in funding the skills agenda, how local authorities can play a part in funding the skills agenda, thereby using that money that's already in the system to be able to further our goals within the skills agenda.

Of course, I've a lot of sympathy with Government on the lack of funding around skills, especially when we saw the loss of that European funding, but we've known about that now for a while. It's been a constant problem within the system, so we really do need to come to a solution on that particular issue, because I think there's a genuine concern—not just in this place, but outside of Wales, within our communities, within those FE providers and businesses—that, at the moment, when we talk about offshore wind and the Celtic Freeport, at the moment we're almost selling a fantasy to our young people. We're saying, 'Go into this industry, go and get on the right course to get into that industry', but investments aren't being made to make sure that we can then realise that and ensure that there's a job for those people at the end of their course. So, we really do need to resolve that issue around funding. We really need to ensure that we are ahead of the game on this, because a number of other countries—England being one of them, but, on the continent, the Netherlands and France, as I've said before—are already making these investments and are already potentially going to be taking a lot of that investment that will come from the Celtic Freeport, from the offshore wind programmes, thereby circumnavigating south Wales completely. So, we really need to resolve that issue.

Finally, the flexible skills programme—and I mentioned structural problems within the skills agenda—is one of many programmes the Welsh Government has on skills. Welsh Government is also one of many institutions that provides programmes. Now, one of the concerns that we have is that the skills landscape or ecosystem within Wales is quite fragmented. There's a lot going on, a lot of different pots of funding being used. What I would like to tease out of the Minister here is what sort of work has the Government done to ensure that we've mapped out what's available in Wales, how we then ensure that we're directing people to those programmes that are available and that they're all working in tandem, because there's a prevailing feeling at the moment that things simply aren't working in tandem. If we can crack that nut on the structural issues, then we're in a very strong position to be able then to crack that nut on funding. So, I really would welcome the Minister's thoughts on that.

Diolch, Luke. Like Sam, I share the commitment of the Member towards skills, and I've valued the conversations we've had both in the Chamber, the constructive feedback in which the Member puts questions to me, but also outside the Chamber in some of the meetings that we've had, discussions particularly on the point around future outlooks and where we can draw down on different pots of, perhaps, funding or open up doors to allow industry and learners to take advantage of, and I hope we can meet again in the future to discuss that in some more detail and do that thinking.

The Member talked about a responsiveness rather than a proactiveness. I'd just push back gently on some of that. I think it's responsive because that's what industry asked for when we evaluated the programme from its iteration a few years ago. We've responded to the need in ensuring the timeliness—the application's more simplistic now—the timeliness in the response from officials to sign that off, and I think that's proven in the statistics I've listed earlier—an average two-and-a-half days turnaround time for that—and you can see from some of the case studies that have been out there around the programme, where businesses have said it's a great programme, it's a no-brainer for them, it incentivises their training, it enhances their capabilities, and it's part of that flexibleness in getting the course that they want, but also the responsiveness needed from the Government and the training providers to be able to do that.

Having said all of that, we are proactively working with industries to say that this funding is available. We promote the flexible skills programme through our channels with officials. It's out there; a campaign is out there encouraging businesses to come out, so whilst its responsive in its nature to respond to industry's needs, it's very proactive in going out and alerting people to the fund, and that's part of today's statement as well. I think that shows a desire from the Welsh Government, actually, to invest in, so it does show a desire from industry to want to train and develop their workforce, but it also shows the desire of the Welsh Government.

You talked about, perhaps, pots of money from different places. Well, I think that's what we did this year. So, when we increased the budget by six times this year, we looked at what does industry want, what does it need and how we can further enhance that, and we did that through investing more in this programme—yes, with additional funds, but also looking at how we can utilise, within the economy portfolio, funds better to respond to them. As I said, it's already in the draft budget there.

Presiding Officer, Luke Fletcher mentioned the important role and opportunity within his own region and the offshore wind sector. I think it's a very, very important sector there. What the flexible skills programme can offer, not just to those blue-chip companies looking to invest, but to the supply chain, the critical supply chain, is that it offers a way to access the training that they need, when they need it, in that timely fashion. I'll go back to my experience in Kronospan just last week. I've talked about the 20 welders with Sam Kurtz; I also met some apprentices who were on their summer break back on site at Kronospan. What they did in the summer break was undertake training through the flexible skills programme to enhance their capabilities. We can do exactly the same in offshore wind. If industry wants to invest, we are there, ready to invest alongside it through the application process that we have set out.

And I want to encourage Members, in the conversations, particularly the two spokespeople, that they have with industry directly on a weekly basis, as we do, to ask business to consider looking at this programme. It's a very good programme to upskill the current workforce. Please keep having the conversations with me about where we can do more to support in this field. It's not the only pot of money available: we have the apprenticeship budget, £144 million—the most we've ever invested, Llywydd; we have the Wales union learning fund, a very good fund that we were able to bring back to the previous level of allocation; and we have lots of investment in skills from other portfolios—the education Minister, the Minister for higher and further education through Medr as well.

The one final point I want to make, Chair, before closing on this particular question, is about bringing people together and the experience that Luke Fletcher described, I think, from the ECA conference this week. That’s exactly what the green skills review did. We held a green skills short-term review. It was one of four short-term reviews that the Cabinet Secretary for economy and I held recently. We've reported on the outcome of that review and the recommendations, but that's exactly what that did: it brought members together from industry, trade unions, education providers and Government bodies and looked at what we offer now, what we can do more and what we can strengthen, and I think the ECA welcomed the outcome of that review. We will work with them and all stakeholders to realise the opportunities in the future, particularly in the green space where we all agree there is a lot of opportunity for Wales in the future.

To realise an economy that works for Wales, we need it to work for those who are the power that drives that economy, and we do that by investing and supporting the current and future workforce. As you say, skills are central to that, not just skills in the first place, but ongoing opportunities to upskill. The flexible skills programme is an excellent example of how that can work in practice and the difference it can make. I was particularly heartened to hear in your statement about the investment in north-east Wales. That's the £1.25 million investment in Flintshire and Wrexham alone, and that's a significant investment in our corner of the country.

In your statement, you said about needing Members to help or encouraging Members to help to share and promote the programme. So, what would your message be to individuals and organisations about the benefits and the value of this programme, and what it brings to them and their businesses, but also those who work for them? So, how we can best build on this brilliant progress that has been made to benefit people and communities right across north Wales. Diolch.

Can I thank Hannah Blythyn for those questions? You're absolutely right: we're very proud, particularly in north-east Wales, of our high-tech advanced manufacturing sector, which is the area that I and the Member represent. From having worked in that industry, we definitely understand that to continue to be world-class in that field, we need to provide funding and provide the flexibility that industry needs to upskill their workforce. The Member rightly points to the investment in Flintshire and Wrexham. We have had the largest share of funding, Chair, at over £1.25 million. I saw that in Kronospan last week, and we can see it in lots of businesses across the two areas there.

The Member opened by saying that investing in people is crucial to all of this. So, I say in my statement that investing in people is how we build a fairer, stronger Wales. What I would say to businesses across the country, and Members who wish to share that message—and it's the right message, which Hannah pointed to—is don't just listen to me; listen to people in the sector. When we invest in people, we know that we invest in their future outcomes. This is what the Kronospan chief executive said about the programme:

'Our people are at the heart of everything we do, and investment in training is essential to maintaining the high standards of innovation and quality that Kronospan is globally known for...the support that we’ve received through the Welsh Government’s Flexible Skills Programme has allowed us to enhance the capabilities of our team, and ensure that we remain competitive in a global market.'

What I would say to businesses across the country is: listen to the chief executive of Kronospan. It worked for their business. It can work for yours. Please engage in the process. Perhaps I will send a note to all Members, highlighting how they can encourage the link to the Business Wales website, where the flexible skills programme can be applied for. There is an average approval time of two and a half days. It's flexible, to meet the needs that your individual business has. I hope that businesses in your own region, like we have seen here, and businesses across Wales, will have a similar response to what the chief executive of Kronospan has already said.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Minister, I am pleased to hear that, as well as supporting Bisley office furniture in my constituency, the enhanced fund has supported the semiconductor sector in Newport. Wales Tech Week at the International Conference Centre Wales in Newport later this month will further showcase our global potential in these sectors.

Every full-time equivalent semiconductor job in Wales supports a further 1.24 jobs in the wider UK economy, which is a total of over 4,000 UK employees. It is, of course, as you know, a competitive sector, and we need to be flexible in the way that we support constant professional learning. So, Minister, could you outline how the sector could benefit further from this funding in the light of that reality?

Well, thank you, John, for not only pointing to the investments made in Newport, but also for highlighting Wales Tech Week, coming up in the very near future. The Cabinet Secretary for economy will be at Wales Tech Week, and I know that she is very excited to be there, to engage in the conversations that will happen about investment in the future. Also, we have our Wales investment summit to look at as well.

The semiconductor industry is not the only industry that has been invested in in Newport, but the semiconductor cluster—. You heard the Deputy First Minister earlier this afternoon highlighting the importance of that sector and the strength of the sector here in Wales. It was a pleasure, earlier this year, to join your constituency colleague Jane Bryant at the opening of the state-of-the-art facility in Newport of KLA. KLA is one of the companies that have been supported through the flexible skills fund to train and upskill their workforce, as has Vishay.

What I would say to the cluster is: we know that it is a fast-moving sector, so the flexibility needs to be there. Again, I point to what it says. The title of this statement is 'The Flexible Skills Programme'. It is called 'flexible' because it is, and it allows companies like Vishay and KLA to improve their training offer, to retain staff, to attract new talent into Newport and to the semiconductor cluster.

I just want to say, Presiding Officer, that when it comes to Newport, Newport this year, currently, as a whole, has received over £470,000 of flexible skills funding. Some of the businesses have been mentioned there, but there are more than just the three that are very much leading the way in important sectors like the semiconductor cluster, and the importance of that to the Welsh economy.

‘Our Bravery Brought Justice’, the report from the north Wales regional safeguarding board, has been published this afternoon. The report has been named by the survivors of the abuse perpetrated by Neil Foden. He was their headteacher, someone they and their families should have been able to trust, and I want to start my comments today by paying tribute to the extraordinary bravery of the survivors.

The title of the report reflects their courage. Their willingness to support the review process and to help protect other children and young people is inspiring. I also want to say to them that I am truly sorry for the abuse they suffered, sorry for the trust that was betrayed, and sorry that they were failed by so many of the people and organisations that should have protected them. I also want to pay tribute to the review panel, led by Jan Pickles OBE. This review has been extensive, spanning the period from January 2017 to September 2023. The panel’s diligence and survivor-focused approach have been exemplary, and I am grateful to everyone who contributed.  

‘Our Bravery Brought Justice’ is a sobering and shocking read, highlighting no less than 50 opportunities to act and intervene. I know many people reading the report and listening to the coverage will be disappointed and frustrated that we are once again in a position where we are learning the lessons of an appalling abuse of trust. I want to be clear: these events should never have happened, and it is incumbent on all of us to ensure that they are never repeated.

The report makes 27 recommendations for action, both locally and nationally, spanning my portfolio and that of the Minister for Children and Social Care. Today I am confirming that we accept all the recommendations directed to us, and that we are committed to acting on all of them immediately. I am also confirming that we will work with all of the organisations named in the report to ensure the recommendations directed to them are fully implemented. We have started that work immediately.

The Minister and I will write to the chair of the Wales safeguarding procedures project board, instructing them to ensure that the findings of this report are fully integrated into section 5 of the Wales safeguarding procedures. We have also asked Care Inspectorate Wales to assess the effectiveness of the updated arrangements within six months of their implementation. This reflects the report’s finding that while procedures are robust, their consistent and effective application must be guaranteed. 

We have instructed officials to update and refresh the disciplinary and dismissal procedures for school staff guidance, and, in doing so, we will consider the inclusion of a low-level concerns policy section, in line with the report's findings. Our new 10-year strategy for preventing and responding to child sexual abuse, which was recently consulted on, will be fully tested against the report's findings before final publication. 

Members will be aware I've already announced my intention to take forward a review of school governing bodies. While this commitment pre-dates the publication of this report, I will ensure the matters raised are fully considered as a part of that review. We will also update all the Welsh Government guidance documents referred to in the report, including the reducing restrictive practices framework. 

Working with experts and partners, we will commission training and resources on the findings of the report, sex offenders and grooming, which will be made available to all school staff, volunteers and governors. We will take a once for Wales approach, with all those based in or working with schools required to take this training. In parallel, we will ensure that the teaching, learning and professional learning for relationships and sexuality education, RSE, includes the latest evidence, resources and professional learning on grooming and related themes, and we will ensure there is an RSE adviser for every local authority.

We also intend to go further than the recommendations in the report. Last month, the Minister for Children and Social Care announced she is taking forward a national strengthening safeguarding governance review. The first phase, lasting around six months, will focus on how agencies work together across the safeguarding system to ensure clear oversight and robust quality assurance. It will be followed by a second phase, which will look in depth at the actions of specific sectors. I can confirm today the first of those in-depth reviews will look at the education sector.

Building on the findings of the national strengthening safeguarding governance review and the work of the school governing bodies review, that in-depth consideration of the education sector will ensure our processes are as robust as they can be and that their implementation is consistent. The Minister and I will also write to the regional safeguarding boards, local authorities, Estyn and Care Inspectorate Wales to highlight the findings of the report, directing them to consider and act on them. We will be following up every six months to ensure that we are receiving the assurance we need that these matters are being addressed.

I also want to assure Members that while we are taking action at a national level, we have not lost sight of what happened locally in the schools and in the local authority. The failings within the school and within Cyngor Gwynedd are clearly set out in the report. They are shocking, disappointing and distressing. Those children, and all our children, deserved better. I know Cyngor Gwynedd has taken responsibility for their failings and apologised to the survivors. They have committed to take action to address the findings of the report, and I will be holding them to that. We are establishing a ministerial assurance group that will oversee the action being taken by Cyngor Gwynedd to act on this report. I will chair this group, which will include the Cabinet Secretary for Housing and Local Government, the Minister for Children and Social Care and the leader and other cabinet members from Cyngor Gwynedd. The first meeting of the group will take place on 18 November. 

I am also mindful of the need to ensure appropriate support is put in place for the schools, and to support children and young people across the area. I have agreed a package of support for Cyngor Gwynedd to ensure they are best placed to address the findings of the CPR and to provide the assurance needed around the safety and well-being of children and young people. I will be closely monitoring the impact this has. We will continue to update Members regularly on the progress against these recommendations and the work taken forward with Cyngor Gwynedd and across Wales.

In closing, I would like to affirm my commitment to the children and young people of Wales, and that of the Welsh Government. We want you to be safe, supported and able to follow your dreams without facing abuse, discrimination or harm. We want Wales to be the best place to grow up, and we are committed to listening to you and acting on what you tell us. Anyone with any concerns about the safety or well-being of a child or young person must report those concerns. It is better to report a concern and find nothing than stay silent and miss an opportunity to protect a child. Diolch yn fawr.

Can I take this opportunity to thank the Cabinet Secretary for this afternoon's statement, and also for meeting with me last night to discuss this? I want to start by saying that my thoughts are with the victims of Neil Foden. I want to pay tribute to their bravery in speaking out, and for putting the disgraced teacher exactly where he belongs: behind bars. Schools should be a safe place for our children, and I firmly believe that no stone should be left unturned in seeking to prevent something as abhorrent as this from ever happening again. To the victims, I also am truly sorry for the abuse that you have suffered and the ongoing trauma because of the negligence of Plaid Cymru-run Gwynedd council.

I also want to say how disappointed I am that this report was not published publicly as expected at 3 p.m. today, and it was clearly shared with certain media outlets beforehand. Cabinet Secretary, can you shed some light on why the media had sight of this report before us elected Members? Was the timing of its publication discussed with the Welsh Government? [Interruption.] It actually is a very important issue. I cannot deny this report was an incredibly tough read, as you mentioned. Without a doubt, Foden's sickening crimes shocked the country and people rightfully want answers, and they deserve those answers, particularly around how someone in a position of power like this managed to get away with this for so long, and unchecked.

The review's fundamental aim is to identify if there were any opportunities to stop this monster in the past that were missed, and it saddens me to say that there were. There were red flags, but they were ignored. There were systematic failings from a multitude of agencies that enabled Foden to abuse multiple girls. In fact, there were more than 50 missed opportunities to act to stop Foden from sexually abusing children. Concerns were previously raised with the Plaid Cymru-controlled Gwynedd council about Foden meeting teenagers alone, but the local authority decided not to formally investigate.

Cabinet Secretary, the council has a lot to answer for here, and I appreciate that you are updating the 'Disciplinary and dismissal procedures for school staff' guidance, but has any individual or individuals at the council been held to account for these failings? If so, what action has been taken against them?

I have serious questions over the Plaid Cymru council's role in this. The local authority's leader disgracefully refused to apologise to the predator's victims. He reluctantly tried to cling on to his position, but thankfully he eventually stepped down after some of his other council colleagues resigned in the wake of the refusal to apologise. Cabinet Secretary, I appreciate that you cannot comment on the ongoings inside Plaid Cymru, but do you agree with me that these actions need further scrutiny? For example, how on earth was Foden allowed to remain in the employment of Gwynedd council right up until his trial started?

The report listed a series of failures on the local authority's part. They include failing to follow statutory safeguarding procedures, not informing the school of key safeguarding outcomes, dismissing concerns and discouraging reporting, not interviewing the child or parents following serious referrals, failing to escalate matters, failure to act on clearly inappropriate behaviour, failure to contact the police or safeguard a child during a critical incident, and systematic failure to challenge the headteacher's behaviour. This is damning, Cabinet Secretary.

Foden was previously reprimanded by the teaching regulator and was kicked out of his union in 2020, yet a year later he was given more responsibility as a 'strategic superhead' overseeing two different schools in north Wales. We know Foden provided advice to the Welsh Government. So, Cabinet Secretary, was the Welsh Government aware of any accusations surrounding Foden during this time? Did the Welsh Government carry out any sort of vetting and have any changes been made to the vetting process in light of this heinous crime? Given he was providing evidence to the Government, can you please confirm if the Welsh Government has ever paid Foden any accommodation expenses whilst he was here in Cardiff? I am not in any way trying to score political points here. I'm simply trying to get answers. [Interruption.] No, it's true.

Turning to the actions you've outlined in your statement this afternoon, I welcome a lot of the steps that you've mentioned, and I'm pleased to see the Government has accepted the report's recommendations. In relation to the ministerial assurance group being set up to oversee the action taken by Gwynedd council, can I get a commitment from you today, Cabinet Secretary, that this Senedd will receive regular and transparent updates, either orally or written, so we can all remain fully updated? The support package for the council to help it implement changes will be a welcome move, I am sure, but can you please elaborate on what that's going to look like going forward?

Cabinet Secretary, now the failings have been identified and the Government's response has been set out, can you please shed some light on the timescales involved, as I believe it's imperative that we act swiftly on a case like this? The review compared the failings in this case to the case involving paedophile teacher John Owen in Pontypridd over 20 years ago. Lessons clearly haven't been learned in the last 20 years, as we're here again today. What assurance can you provide, Cabinet Secretary, that other opportunities have not been missed in other schools in other counties across Wales?

Cabinet Secretary, I'm sure you will agree that we need to do all that we can to protect our children. I would like to draw my remarks to a close, Cabinet Secretary, by once again paying tribute to the brave victims who spoke out in this case and every single case of abuse. I sincerely hope and pray that appropriate steps are taken, and taken swiftly, following this review to ensure that we never have to stand here again and ever have a similar discussion like we're having today. Thank you.

Thank you very much, Natasha, for those comments. Like you, my thoughts are with the victims, who have shown exceptional bravery, not just in coming forward to stop Neil Foden but also participating in the review process, which must have been doubly traumatising for those young people. But without their participation in that, we wouldn't have the thorough review that we have got before us today.

It is a truly shocking report. There were parts of it that took my breath away reading it; it's that shocking. We absolutely, all of us, have to learn the lessons. It does give us a very detailed narrative on what happened in that time period. It is a very extensive report. The reviewers interviewed 140 people, so we've got a very clear picture of what happened. And you are right: there were red flags, those were ignored, and there were those 50 opportunities to prevent his offending and abusive behaviour.

You raised some issues around staffing and whether anybody has been dismissed. I'm sure you'll be aware, Natasha, that disciplinary matters are a matter for the local authority. There are staff that are currently suspended. There will be a disciplinary process that will be undertaken. It is vital that those investigations are robust and are fully followed.

In terms of the issues that you've raised about the role of Neil Foden in giving some advice previously to the Welsh Government—and he also gave evidence to the Children, Young People and Education Committee when I was Chair—I want to be crystal clear that nobody in the Government or in the committee had any inkling that he was the kind of person that he is. It is the modus operandi of paedophiles to hide what they are doing, and it is clear from the report that he did everything that he did by hiding in plain sight. He had cultivated a huge persona around himself as a media figure in Wales. They also were unaware of what he was like. That is, unfortunately, what paedophiles and people who abuse children can be like, and that's why we need to take forward the other actions involved in the report.

In terms of the ministerial assurance group that we have established to support Cyngor Gwynedd, I'm very happy to give you confirmation that we are happy to provide updates on that going forward. We do have timescales for the actions in our response. For example, the review of safeguarding governance that my colleague Dawn Bowden is leading on is going to take around six months. That will look at the multi-agency working in the safeguarding space, which obviously includes education. The specific focus on education will follow immediately after that. The review of governors is also a complex piece of work, because governors are embedded in so much legislation that affects education, so we have to carefully look at that and unpick it and do it properly. The work will be taken forward with as much pace as we can. But I do think it's important to recognise what is said in the report, which is that none of these recommendations can be taken in isolation. This is a system, and that's why the work has to be sequenced. We have to make sure that we've got a systemic approach to all these issues.

You mentioned the Clywch inquiry. Can I just confirm that all the recommendations from Clywch were implemented? What this report has shown is a failure not so much of policy—but we still need to look at where we can strengthen policy—it's a failure of implementation and following the guidance on the ground by the agencies involved.

Thank you very much, Sioned. I agree with you, those children were let down. The 50 missed opportunities speak for themselves, really. Like you, one of the most shocking things to me was how absent the voice of the child had been, and I personally found that particularly shocking in a country like Wales where we have put children's rights at the very heart of our policy making, and it was quite clear in the review that those children's voices were barely heard at all. And if there had been an attempt to talk to those children earlier on, this would have come to light much earlier. So, there are serious issues that need to be addressed there. They're issues, obviously, for us to consider as a Government, but we also need all agencies now to really look again at how they are making sure the voice of the child is central to what they're doing. It should be anyway. It has been there since we passed the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014, giving voice and control to children and young people. But this has failed very badly in this situation.

So, we're updating our statutory safeguarding guidance for education, to make sure that the voice of the child is central to safeguarding arrangements. And we're asking all organisations to review their policies to make sure that they truly reflect the child's voice and the learning from the CPR, and that has to be seen in practice, not just on paper. We're asking all regional safeguarding boards to ensure that they have oversight of all the actions being undertaken to embed the learning from this review, and we're asking them for a written update on the activity in that space by March 2026. And we are expecting them to evidence what has been happening.

Every child has the right to be heard, and we have to make sure that no organisation thinks that they don't have to do that. Obviously, Care Inspectorate Wales and Estyn, in line with their inspection programmes, also report on the voice of the child. That's something that we will be discussing with CIW and with Estyn, who we've asked to undertake a safeguarding inspection in Cyngor Gwynedd. That's happening next week. Myself and the Minister will meet with CIW and Estyn to receive their findings on that.

There are already ways to make sure that young people can make their views known. Obviously, we've got our school council regulations, but we clearly do need to make sure that our safeguarding procedures strengthen that expectation that children's voices will be at the very centre of that. I think for me as well, one of the key issues here was the lack of professional curiosity. That is so often, isn't it, a theme in cases where children have been let down. And one of the things that I really liked in the report was the challenge to all of us to think the unthinkable when it comes to children, whereas what happened in this case was that they gave all the benefit of the doubt to a prolific abuser.

Just to assure you that monitoring will be a key thing that we are considering to take forward. It has to happen, because the findings are that policies haven't been implemented on the ground. It's how we monitor it that will ensure that that doesn’t happen again.

You raised the points about education and training. There are two issues here. There's how we educate children and young people to make sure that they are safer from these kinds of harms. And as part of the RSE curriculum in Wales, promoting healthy relationships and making children and young people aware of what are unhealthy relationships is a key part of the RSE code. But we know that that is a difficult and challenging thing for schools to deal with. That's why, as part of our curriculum grants, I announced £4.2 million for the Cwtch Education Project. They're going to be working with all local authorities in Wales to make sure that there is a 'once for Wales' offer in terms of RSE. So, all local authorities will have an RSE adviser and we will be working with them to make sure that grooming and the modus operandi of paedophiles are included in that.

But it is also about training the workforce. We have Dysgu in place now, so now that the report is published, we'll be taking up the training issues with them. And as I said in my statement, everybody in a school needs to have that training to understand how people who groom and abuse children operate. But also, in the strategy that Dawn has consulted on—the 10-year strategy to prevent child sexual abuse—that also has a commitment, as one of the early priorities, to a training framework so that everybody can be upskilled in this space. And that strategy also has three-year delivery plans, doesn't it, which will enable that monitoring to be undertaken. But I completely agree that it is absolutely crucial that we monitor this until it can't be monitored any more, really; otherwise we won't see the change that we need to see.

Of course, our thoughts are with the victims. That goes without saying. I thank the Cabinet Secretary for leading from the front by chairing the ministerial assurance group, but I want to reflect on the lack of historic memory of North Wales Police and the north Wales local authorities. While all this was going on, we had the Waterhouse report, we had the Operation Pallial report, we had the conviction of John Allen to life imprisonment. All these things were happening at the time, and I find it very difficult to understand why local authorities were not more alive to the fact that his behaviour clearly should have required us to be suspicious.

'The agencies did not consider the suitability...of Foden’s behaviour in having such close contact and interactions'

with this child. I mean, this is incredible. And this is in 2018: for the second time in that month,

'the Chair of Governors was not informed, even though this was the second referral'.

If we don't adhere collectively to the framework that we set for protecting our children, and we don't reflect on what is going on in the rest of the area, it really is devastating.

Absolutely, I welcome the review of governing bodies, because this is crucial, because headteachers have an awful lot of power in this. That is why it's so devastating that the chair of governors was not informed. We're not talking about a small special school here, we're talking about the largest secondary school in the whole of Bangor, which obviously was drawing in young people from other local authorities as well. So, I think we really do need to reflect on this and ask North Wales Police why was the light not on, and how on earth could they not be learning from this and becoming the best possible authority for safeguarding, instead of just simply not learning from the past. We have so much to learn from this. I simply haven't been able to read all the report, but I am really, really concerned that we are revisiting history in this way.

Thank you, Jenny. I think those are fair points, really, about how we don't learn from these experiences. We really have to make sure that this is the last time someone is stood here saying that. There were so many red flags, it was absolutely extraordinary that he wasn't apprehended sooner. And I didn't say in response to Sioned, who raised the point about his suitability to work with children, that, even if they felt that he hadn't met the threshold on a child protection basis, he clearly met the criteria for not having the appropriate boundaries and on the suitability to work with children, yet that didn’t lead to any action, which is absolutely disgraceful.

I think the governance review is very important. We have lots and lots of excellent governors who do a really good job on a voluntary basis, but the world has changed a lot. They're being asked to do complex things and we need to make sure now that we’ve got a system that is governance for the twenty-first century. When you have a chance to read the report thoroughly, you will see that not only was the chair of governors not informed about things, but he was identified as having had letters drafted by Neil Foden, which he then sent out in his own name. Now, that is not how the relationship between a chair of governors and a headteacher is meant to work.

In terms of the police, I have been, obviously, really concerned about what I’ve read. North Wales Police have also apologised as well for their role in this. They've said that they would welcome and support anyone who wants to come forward with more information, and indeed anyone who wants to report concerns about any child. But, just to let you know, because the references to what happened in terms of the restraint of boys, who were quite young boys, who all had ALN, are also deeply shocking, I am going to be writing to Dame Diana Johnson, who is the Minister for policing and crime prevention, to seek her assurances that decisions on investigations and prosecutions in relation to this are robust and that we can be confident that those who commit such appalling offences are fully punished for the crimes they commit.

Thank you very much, Siân. I couldn’t agree more with you; it is an appalling catalogue of missed opportunities, and, as I said to Sioned, the lack of a child-focused approach to this is something that I think has defined these failures. We are going to take—we are taking—action. We’re reviewing our 'Keeping learners safe' guidance, which is the guidance that is operational in schools. We want to make sure that the learning from this CPR is fully taken into account in that, and that will include a focus on how we can ensure that children’s voice is much more central to everything as part of the Wales safeguarding procedures review that is ongoing at the moment. That will also address the issues of children’s voice. And we’re not just going to ask the safeguarding board to do that; we’re also going to ask CIW to then go in and have a look to check that all of them have done that, and report back to us.

In terms of the assurance board with Cyngor Gwynedd, as I said, that will be myself, Dawn and Jayne as Ministers, as well as a senior cabinet members in Cyngor Gwynedd. The first meeting of that will take place on 18 November. That’s going to meet on a quarterly basis to give us the necessary assurance that the recommendations for the school and the local authority are being implemented. I know that you’re well aware that they have established their own response to this report, and the response board is chaired by Professor Sally Holland, and I really welcome her involvement in that, but the assurance board then will be an opportunity for us also to scrutinise further the work that’s being done through that.

I think that gets to the heart of the matter, doesn't it? It is about thinking the unthinkable, and thinking, 'What if I’m right?' instead of, 'What if I’m wrong?', which was clearly what happened from this report. On so many occasions, they gave him the benefit of the doubt when they should have been putting children front and centre. 

The courage and bravery of the children in bringing justice has shone a light on these deep and painful failures. These are failures that lasted for years across agencies and within systems that were meant to protect those children. We’ve heard a lot of issues being brought up, but there are two that I just wanted to touch on: the failure of multi-agency working, and that we lost the voices of the children.

Since I became a Senedd Member, I feel that this echoes other cases that we’ve talked about here in the Siambr—the tragic deaths of Kaylea Titford, Logan Mwangi and Lola James—again where multi-agency working and the lack of listening to children meant that those children died. I've called in the Siambr before for an independent national review of child safeguarding, because these are not local problems, they're not political problems, they are systemic ones. We're a small country, yet here we are with another major failure of systems and not listening to children.

So, my question to you, Cabinet Member, if I may, is to draw in—. If we felt it was important to listen to those children, then, equally, in everything that you're doing, carrying forward, we must listen to the voices of those children as survivors. So, may I ask you, please: how are you planning to include the voices of survivors, and, actually, survivors themselves both of this abuse and other abuse, in your group, the ministerial assurance group, and in the strengthening safeguarding governance review? Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Thank you very much, Jane. You're absolutely right that this was a failure of multi-agency implementation of policies, and that's why the first priority of the strengthening safeguarding governance review will be looking at that multi-agency interaction in the space of safeguarding. It will include the roles played by the National Independent Safeguarding Board, the regional safeguarding board and all their partners and inspectorates, and the first phase is going to take that overarching review of governance. As I said, education will be part of that, but then we will go on to do a focused review.

I think you make a really important point about multi-agency working and the breakdown in that. I think if you look at the report into what happened at Ysgol Dyffryn Aman, the failures there were systemic failures by agencies not working together and we absolutely have to learn the lessons of that, because it is too frequently something that comes up. So, our review is going to have a very strong initial focus on the multi-agency approach to these things. It's challenging, obviously, to involve survivors, in terms of making sure that we don't re-traumatise people, but I will ask officials to have a look at how we can make sure that we do that as part of the work that we're doing, and this report wouldn't be able to shine such a light on what's happened if we hadn't had the voices of the survivors fully involved in this review, and I am deeply grateful to them for what they've done.

It is a deeply depressing report that we have in front of us this afternoon. You touched on, in an earlier response to a Member, that the 'Clywch' report recommendations had been implemented. Sadly, one of those key recommendations was national oversight of safeguarding reviews. In 2018, the then Welsh Government withdrew that national oversight. Another comment that has come out from this report is that the headteacher in question was a powerful figure. This is a recurring theme when we listen and read these types of reports. Wales is, as other Members have identified, a small country and that's where national oversight and national support helps to break down those cells of control that individuals like this headteacher have created. So, do you believe that it was a mistake to withdraw that national oversight of the local safeguarding reviews back in 2018? And if you do, will you commit to reinstating that key recommendation of the 'Clywch' report and bringing forward national oversight of such reports in the future?

Thank you, Andrew. I think what you're talking about is the Welsh Government independent investigation service. I just want to be crystal clear with Members that there has been no removal of national oversight of safeguarding. That absolutely remains, as it always has. There is also still a requirement on governing bodies to appoint an independent investigator. What changed in 2018 is that Welsh Government was funding a company to provide independent investigators to governing bodies. As I understand it—and, obviously, it was before my time—that was not being used very much by governing bodies, and there had also been some complaints made about the service. So, the service itself was removed, but we made it absolutely clear that they were still required to have independent investigators. So, the requirement on local authorities to have that has not changed at all, and neither has the national oversight of safeguarding. We've asked the BBC to correct that story.

Thank you very much, Mabon. Obviously, a number of Members have raised concerns about the voice of the child, and I agree fully with the concerns that have been raised. It's something that we need to discuss further as a Government. We need to make sure that our commitment to children's rights is a reality on the ground for us and for all the agencies.

As I said, we'll be taking steps to strengthen the keeping learners safe guidance, as well as the safeguarding procedures. We're also asking regional safeguarding boards to demonstrate how they will be taking account of the voice of the child, and we will be asking CIW to report back to us on how they have done that, because it is absolutely vital that we continue to monitor this.

Training is crucial, and I've committed that there will be training available for everyone in schools. We will, now that the report is published, have that discussion with Dysgu. That means everybody in a school, not just teachers or teaching assistants, but it's about caretakers and administrators, so that everybody has that awareness, but also through our relationships and sexuality education, to make sure that young people have got that understanding of what is an unhealthy inappropriate behaviour and are able to keep themselves safe. 

Of course, everyone here's thoughts are with all those involved who tried, and were not listened to, to speak out and stop this abuse. And it won't be just the children; it'll be families, it'll be staff members as well, all of whom will be traumatised by what they might perceive as their own failure, and I think we need to address that.

We know that he was hiding in plain sight and we know that that's what people do, so I think it's right that we empower individuals to believe in themselves and empower those individuals, when they suspect something, to come forward and for them also to be listened to.

The Waterhouse report—and I was a councillor when that came out—made recommendations to councillors and gave a list of questions for councillors to ask their local authorities about child safeguarding practices. That again, of course, was a review way back then. I would respectfully ask you, Cabinet Secretary, whether you think the same ought to happen, that local authorities should be issued with questions that it is expected their councillors will ask of them about their systems in terms of protecting their children. Because we’re all corporate parents at the end of the day. Everybody who is elected at whatever level is a corporate parent, and it’s everybody’s duty in that space to enquire, to look for anything that they can do to ensure that that is taken seriously.

I think it would be worth looking at whether councils are actually scrutinising properly cabinet members with responsibility for education and children. I started doing that a year ago. I have to tell you that I did not get very far, because the councils treated it as a freedom of information request, straight away. But if councillors aren’t asking the questions through scrutiny of the cabinet members in the council about the safety of children in education, then it’s little wonder that we see failings like this.

But, again, I want to put on record my thanks to all those people who finally did listen—that’s the first step—and those who asked to be listened to.

Thank you, Joyce. I think what you’ve said relates as well to whistleblowing, and people being comfortable about whistleblowing. The review is clear that staff did not feel able to whistleblow, nor did they even know how to go about whistleblowing when they identified behaviours that caused them concern. So, we are asking regional safeguarding boards as well, to seek their assurance that relevant whistleblowing policies are in place, and we’re asking for a written update on that, with supporting evidence, by 2 March 2026.

You mentioned the families, and I think it is important to record how traumatic all this will have been for the families, and not just the families of the girls who were sexually abused. There were boys who were subjected to the most inappropriate, awful restraint—young boys, who were all children with additional learning needs, which is profoundly shocking. Parents did complain, but then the complaints policy was not followed either in that process. We will shortly be issuing a revised, updated and strengthened complaints policy, which we hope will help to address that.

You make an important point about councillors. I’d just like to assure you that the Minister and I are writing to all leaders to update them on the findings of the review, to bring to their attention the particular recommendations that we think they should focus on, and we will be asking for their assurances. I think the message here, really, is that this is everybody's business, isn’t it? We all have to take responsibility for safeguarding children and thinking the unthinkable when we have any concerns.

Thank you, Minister, for your statement today. It makes for a harrowing read, the report. I was shocked, frankly, at the missed opportunities that were listed, many of which seemed to be opportunities to be seized upon in order to get to grips with this issue, but were missed by not just the local authority—which, of course, understandably, has been the focus of many people's comments—but even the health service, the police liaison officer in the school, and, of course, those teaching staff who ought to have been able to spot these things right under their noses every single day, and indeed were discussing it, but not raising it in a more professional capacity.

A couple of questions I have, if I may, because many have already been asked. It seemed to me that the local authority was more obsessed about the reputational damage of a school dinner policy than they were about the potential reputational damage of investigating what could have been a child abuse scandal and a paedophilia scandal. That, to me, is absolutely shocking, that more attention seems to have been given to that than this scandal of child abuse that was going on with these young girls, and, indeed, the young boys that you've mentioned who were restrained. What sense of proportion do people have when they're focusing on those wrong things? I find it astonishing that they seemed to be focusing on that, rather than the abuse. And people clearly, by that time, had actually been blowing the whistle on the concerns that they had.

The second thing I want to ask is, it surprises me also that there's no power to compel individual teachers to participate and attend interviews in relation to these sorts of reviews. It's noted in the report—and I haven't been able to read it or study it in detail—but it's noted in the report that there were repeated requests for a chronology of events, and for data and record keeping to be made available to the people conducting the review to the school, and they were not provided. And that some of the staff who they wanted to speak to were less than co-operative, I think it's fair to say, when you actually look at the report. That is scandalous. They should be forced to participate in these reviews, so that people can get to the truth about what has happened, expose it and bring it into the cold light of day. So, what action is going to be taken? It's not a recommendation in the report, but I think it does need to be considered as something that the Welsh Government could do, on top of those recommendations, in order to improve the situation.

The third thing I want to ask is about the NHS. The fact that a headteacher turns up to a gynaecology appointment with a child is completely inappropriate. And then for the NHS to send the follow-up letter to the school, to the headteacher, not to the parent, but to the school afterwards, is astonishing. I wonder what piece of work has been done—and this should be something that could be done immediately—to review all cases where letters have been sent to schools rather than parents, not just in north Wales, but around the whole country. It seems to me that that's a perfectly appropriate recommendation, again, which has been missed by the review board.

I want to thank them for the work. It must have been very difficult to do, especially with the findings that they have come to and the recommendations that have been made, and they've clearly done excellent work. But those are two things, I think, that we ought to be also pressing for in terms of changes in the future.

Thank you, Darren. And, yes, it is a harrowing report, and one of the most shocking things is that rather than being worried about the children, some of the staff who were closest to this were actually worried about the possibility of false allegations against the headteacher. That is really shocking. We've rehearsed this very clearly this afternoon that things have to change, policies have to be implemented, the child's voice has to be at the centre of how we take this forward, and those young people have given us a platform to do that today with the report.

In terms of the power to compel, there isn't a power to compel, as I think you know. What I am reassured by is how extensive and thorough this report is. They spoke to over 140 witnesses. They were at the school for very extended periods of time. There was communication with families. There was an e-mail address that people could contact with any issues that they wanted to raise. This has been a really thorough examination, and when you get a chance to read the report, you will see that it is a really detailed description of what happened. And, like you, I abhor the fact that there were people, albeit a relatively small number of people, who didn't co-operate with that.

There is a recommendation you'll have seen aimed at Betsi Cadwaladr. I have already discussed with the Minister and with officials that this needs to be considered more widely. It should be an absolutely massive red flag: a headteacher turning up at a gynaecological appointment with a child. It's mind-boggling, isn't it, really? So, we will be asking all health boards to consider this—and I can see Jeremy there as well. We have to have that assurance. People involved in the health service did raise concerns, but there again, those concerns weren't taken sufficiently seriously.

Finally, Cefin Campbell.

Thank you, Cefin. I think you're right, we can honour the courage of these young people by making sure that this never ever happens again. I'd like to assure you that the survivors of Neil Foden have been supported. We've had those assurances from the regional safeguarding board and Cyngor Gwynedd.

I should have said in response to Siân's questions about the ministerial assurance group that we've also provided funding of £523,000 over the next two academic years to Cyngor Gwynedd. That will be to support well-being in the schools and broader safeguarding assurance. That will include support for the school to become trauma informed. I won't rehearse the variety of things that we have in place in schools generally to make sure that young people are supported.

The Clywch inquiry recommendations—I've read them all—have all been implemented. The challenge here was that the policies that arose from that were not implemented on the ground. That is what we really have to address, as well as looking—this is everybody's business—at what more we can do as a Government to make sure that we strengthen all the protections around children and young people.

I do want to say as well, because, obviously, this has been a challenging statement, that there is a phenomenal amount of really good work in our schools and people who are genuine and kind and who care about our children. What we can't have are these awful people doing these terrible things to children, and that is what must never happen again.

I am really committed on the voice of the child. I've come into this role from a background of being chair of the committee, and I do give you the assurance that we will make sure, in all the work we're doing, that listening to the voices of children and young people will be at the very heart of that.

Llywydd, this year, for the first time, the Senedd has the power to set differential multipliers in the field of non-domestic rates. A consultation took place earlier this year on proposals for use of these powers and, on 7 October, the outcome of that consultation was announced. It confirmed that the Welsh Government would take the necessary steps to enable the proposals to be implemented on 1 April next year.

If these regulations succeed, a lower retail multiplier will be introduced to rebalance the non-domestic rates system in favour of small to medium-sized shops. This reflects the unique challenges faced by bricks-and-mortar retail shops, not least through their exposure to competition from online retailers. Of course, the Welsh Government already provides £250 million each year of permanent reliefs, which benefit more than half of business rate payers in Wales. And, in addition, since 2020, we’ve allocated more than £1 billion in temporary relief to the sectors most directly affected by recent economic challenges.

It is, of course, important that the lower retail multiplier can be implemented and sustained without reducing the overall contribution made by non-domestic rates to the funding of vital local services across Wales. That is why we are also enabling a higher multiplier, which would raise a modest amount of additional revenue from high-value properties. The regulations specify the properties that will be subject to the retail and the higher multipliers. They’re being brought forward now to provide local authorities with sufficient time to implement this structural change to the non-domestic rates system. Further regulations will prescribe the values of these differential multipliers. The values of all multipliers for 2026-27 will be determined later this year, when all necessary information is available to inform those decisions.

But just to be clear, Llywydd, what these regulations do is to lay the scope of the use of these powers for the next financial year. The choice in front of the Senedd is not between this or more extensive use of the powers. It’s between this and staying with the status quo. And there will be no further opportunity to vote on a wider use of these powers later in this Senedd term.

What there will be is further regulations on where the financial values of these new multipliers will be set. The reason that we can’t do that at this point is that there is a revaluation of non-domestic rates that will come into play on 1 April next year. The work of that revaluation is not yet concluded, and the actual figures that we will attach to different multipliers will depend upon the outcome of that work.

If we have to charge a modest additional rate to those larger retailers, we are talking about a very modest amount, I believe, on a very modest number of premises—about 3,000 premises altogether across Wales. But I haven’t made a decision on that, because I don’t have all the information I need from the completion of the revaluation exercise. I will bring further regulations in front of the Senedd if today's regulations are approved.

I move the motion. 

I would like to thank the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee and the Climate Change, Environment and Infrastructure Committee for the consideration they have given to the Welsh Government's legislative consent memoranda on this Bill and the reports they have published. The Bill makes provisions designed to speed up and streamline the delivery of critical infrastructure to support economic growth. The Bill includes provisions relating to the consenting of infrastructure schemes, reforms to the compulsory purchase Order process, reforms to the Highways Act 1980 and a strategic approach to nature recovery.

The Welsh Government supports the overall policy aims of the Bill and has worked on the development of this legislation and how it applies to Wales. On compulsory acquisition, the proposed provisions would modernise the process. For example, they facilitate electronic communication and introduce more efficient procedures for confirming decisions where there are no objections. The provisions in the Bill align with the Welsh Government's commitments to build a stronger, cleaner economy. The Welsh Government recognises the need for modern, efficient consenting processes to secure these commitments and we have already introduced the Infrastructure (Wales) Act 2024, which will improve decision making for large infrastructure projects in Wales through this significant infrastructure project consenting regime. The provisions in this Bill provide similar benefits to our new Act by modernising other consenting regimes that have an impact on the delivery of important infrastructure schemes in Wales. For example, it will enable a modernised fee system for harbour consent and improve how we handle examinations under the Transport and Works Act 1992.

In March, we laid a legislative consent memorandum, and supplementary legislative consent memoranda were laid in May, June, August and October. The Welsh Government supports all those provisions of the Bill that meet the test in Standing Order 29. I note that the committees have expressed concern regarding provisions in the Bill relating to pre-application procedures for developments considered through the UK Government's nationally significant infrastructure project process and, as the new Welsh SIP consenting regime demonstrates, the Welsh Government is committed to supporting and encouraging developer engagement with local communities and stakeholders on infrastructure projects.

Before I was willing to support this provision, I sought reassurance from Matthew Pennycook MP, Minister for housing and planning, that meaningful pre-application engagement will remain an integral part of the NSIP process. I can confirm that, while they take different approaches, both the Welsh Government's SIP regime and the NSIP Bill provisions are underpinned by the need for applicants to undertake early, meaningful and proportionate engagement with relevant stakeholders. Recognising that the Bill will streamline and simplify the processes associated with the delivery of infrastructure and development in Wales, I recommend the Senedd supports this Bill and gives its consent. Diolch.

We, as a committee, considered memoranda 1 to 4 in relation to this Bill. We were unable to consider memorandum 5 due to the extremely tight reporting deadline. Now, in our report on the first and second LCMs, we noted concerns raised by stakeholders that the proposals in the Bill are not aligned with Welsh environmental policy legislation, such as the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 and the Environment (Wales) Act 2016. One of the main areas of concern was the proposed removal of certain pre-application requirements from nationally significant infrastructure projects, or NSIPs, including those in Wales, of course. Now, there is currently a legislative requirement for a person who proposes to apply for development consent to consult particular people about the proposed application. Under the proposed amendments, this requirement in relation to a relevant public authority will be replaced by a requirement to have regard to guidance issued by the Secretary of State. We believe the pre-application consultation process to be an important opportunity and sometimes, actually, the only meaningful opportunity for local communities and other stakeholders to have their voices heard. We believe that a potential watering down of the pre-application consultation requirements risks significant problems not being identified until later in the development process. Now, we are grateful that the Cabinet Secretary has sought reassurances from the UK Government's Minister for Housing and Planning on this matter, as she has just outlined. However, we do remain concerned that the proposed approach could result in a situation where the process for NSIPs in Wales and the Welsh significant infrastructure projects will not be aligned. That's certainly a concern of ours.

Stakeholders were also concerned about the environmental delivery plans and the nature restoration levy as mechanisms to allow developers in England to make financial contributions instead of implementing mitigating or mitigation measures. We acknowledge that these mechanisms won't apply to Wales, however we do note stakeholders' concern that they may be used to apply informal pressure on Welsh planning authorities to develop a similar approach. We're yet to receive an assurance from the Welsh Government that any such approach would not be permissible under current planning policy and legislation in Wales. In our report, we noted Wales Environment Link's proposed amendment to prevent Natural Resources Wales from facilitating developments that could adversely affect protected sites or habitats, such as ancient woodland, particularly, of course, on Welsh Government woodland estate. So, we'd be grateful if the Cabinet Secretary could confirm whether her officials have been able to seek amendments to the Bill to mitigate this.

Given that there remain issues that need to be addressed, we're not, as a committee, able to recommend at this stage that the Senedd agrees to give consent. As mentioned, we've not been able to consider the latest memorandum in relation to this Bill. We should have more time if we are to play a meaningful role in this legislative consent process. It's something I feel that we, as a Senedd committee, haven't been able to do in this case, especially in a way that we as Members and, indeed, those we represent would expect us to.

Diolch, Llywydd. The Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee has reported on four of the five legislative consent memoranda for the Planning and Infrastructure Bill. The fifth memorandum was laid after the committee had met for the final time before the half-term recess. So, the committee, like the Climate Change, Environment and Infrastructure Committee, was not given sufficient time to thoroughly consider the issue in memorandum number five and report to the Senedd. I believe that's a matter of concern.

The committee's reports have focused on three main matters of interest: intergovernmental working, the interaction with the Bill and the Welsh Government's planning consolidation legislation, and the delegated powers in the Bill.

In the committee's first report, we highlighted that it is not clear from the memorandum what discussions the Welsh Government has had with the UK Government during the Bill's development about the impact of the Bill on devolved matters. If the Welsh Government had been engaged in detailed discussion, we perhaps would not expect to see the Cabinet Secretary express concern with several clauses of the Bill for reasons including misalignment of Welsh Government policy, potential unintended consequences in the offshore region, and the inadvertent application of certain provisions to Wales. The committee asked for clarity on when the Welsh Government became aware of the UK Government's legislative proposals and when the Cabinet Secretary became aware of the issues that materialised as regards three particular clauses in the Bill.

The committee also asked the Cabinet Secretary to explain how the Bill's drafting was influenced by the Welsh Government. The memorandum is also unclear about the extent to which the Bill may impact on the Welsh Government's own proposal to consolidate the planning law as it applies in Wales. The Legislative, Justice and Constitution Committee are now scrutinising those planning consolidation Bills and, in the committee's first report, we therefore asked the Cabinet Secretary to confirm whether the Bill has implications for the consolidation Bills.

In the committee's third report, we summarised the Cabinet Secretary's response to our request for clarity. A few key responses to draw to Members' attention: engagement with the Welsh and UK Governments began last summer, but formal discussion on the contents of the Bill did not begin until November. The Cabinet Secretary was then made aware of the issues with clauses 24, 28 and 38 as they were numbered on introduction. Between December and February, the Cabinet Secretary said that the Welsh Government was able to influence the drafting of the Bill's provisions linked to infrastructure consenting powers, but it was not until the final Bill was introduced to the UK Parliament that formal analysis was undertaken by the Welsh Government and the issues raised in the memorandum were identified. As a result, the committee is disappointed that the Bill that was introduced to the UK Parliament contained provisions of concern to the Welsh Government, given the months of engagement between the two Governments ahead of the Bill's introduction.

As regards the Bill's interaction with the planning consolidation Bills, the Cabinet Secretary told us that the Bill will not affect the content of the main Planning (Wales) Bill. However, in a small number of cases, the Planning  (Consequential Provisions) (Wales) Bill and the UK Government's Bills will amend the same provisions of another Act. Where that is the case, the Cabinet Secretary told us that the consequential provisions Bill takes account of the amendments made by the UK Government Bill and further amendments made to the Bill by the UK Parliament could be dealt with during detailed committee consideration stage for the consolidation Bill if necessary.

The Cabinet Secretary subsequently told the committee that if the parliamentary timings became an issue, the Welsh Government saw three potential remedies: firstly, by utilising detailed Senedd consideration stage; secondly, by the UK Parliament amending the UK Government's Bill; and third, utilising proposed a regulation-making power within the consequential provisions Bill, and if, when enacted, to make any necessary changes as a consequence of the UK Government Bill.

Finally, the Bill contains a large number of delegated powers, some of which are being given to the Welsh Ministers to exercise in devolved areas. There are also some powers being given to the Secretary of State to act in devolved areas. One such power in clause 34 of the Bill as introduced enables the Secretary of State to set rules regarding deadlines for decisions. The Cabinet Secretary told the committee that this is because the rule and regulation-making powers conferred by the Transport and Works Act 1992 have not been transferred to the Welsh Ministers and it's therefore appropriate for the power to be conferred on the Secretary of State on this occasion, but with a consenting role for Welsh Ministers. The committee asked the Cabinet Secretary to confirm whether the Welsh Government asked the UK Government to include provisions in the Bill that would transfer to the Welsh Ministers the rule and regulation-making powers conferred by the 1992 Act to enable the regulation-making power in clause 34 of the Bill to be delegated to the Welsh Ministers. As highlighted in the committee's fourth report, the Cabinet Secretary's response did not address the committee's recommendation and the committee found this regrettable.

This is a complicated Bill and I just want to ask the Cabinet Secretary a couple of things, because I haven't fully understood whether this waters down our ability to maintain the standards that we have proudly set in Wales for net-zero standards for new housing as well as the quality and numbers of affordable housing. This is because the London mayor has recently trashed the standards and the numbers of social houses that are going to be built in London, despite a really, really severe housing crisis there, which is not dissimilar to the challenges that we face in Cardiff. The London mayor seems to be pursuing housing at any price, regardless of quality, and walking away from the needs of those in most need. So, how does this Bill in any way undermine our ability to maintain our net-zero standards, which could be adopted by the rest of the UK if they were so minded? Otherwise, we're simply having to retrofit subsequently housing that simply hasn't been built to the appropriate level needed within our requirement to reduce the carbon emissions from heating our homes.

Thank you to colleagues for those points and there are some detailed points for me to respond to. I'm very grateful to Mike Hedges, actually, for being able to set out some of the Welsh Government's responses to some of those key issues that were raised during scrutiny. The changes really are about modernising existing legislation and making it more appropriate for the examination of projects. The changes made are generally minor, but they make small improvements to improve processes. And the changes will affect a small number of projects, but, of course, it's still really important to make sure that they are effective.

In terms of the timing, whilst memorandum No. 5 was laid in the Senedd in accordance with the timescales set out in Standing Order 29, I absolutely recognise that committees did have limited time to consider it before this debate. However, the SLCM does relate to matters that have previously been considered by committees and don't raise any new issues that haven't previously been scrutinised, and there's no fundamental change raised by this particular SLCM. So, I just want to reassure colleagues of that point.

In terms of the NSIP, and the pre-application requirements in terms of engaging the public, I think that that is an absolutely critical point that has been raised by committees. And as others have mentioned, I did raise this specifically with the UK Government's Minister for Housing and Planning, and set out, really, our approach within our Welsh legislation for things that we have responsibility for here. It's very much about pre-loading and front-loading that approach to community engagement with communities and relevant stakeholders as well. The UK Government Minister did confirm that front-loading and consultation does remain central to the UK Government's approach to infrastructure consenting under its NSIP regime. And I was able to write to colleagues in August on that specific point, setting out that, as demonstrated by measures in the Infrastructure (Wales) Act 2024 that will introduce the SIP process, we are absolutely committed to engaging with the UK Government. Whilst the relevant provisions in the Bill relating to NSIP processes are not within the legislative competence of the Senedd, we do want to ensure that, where a development is in Wales, the situation and the process is equally front-loaded. So, I do hope that I have been able to give some assurance on that. I know that when you look at everything that the UK Government has said publicly, when you look at the details of its own consultation, you will see that there is a really strong commitment to that front-loading as well, but it's absolutely integral to our own particular approach in Wales.

In terms of the approach to nature, having considered the provisions, I am reassured that these are in conjunction with the wider amendments to the nature restoration fund. They mean that any cross-border sites in Wales shouldn't be negatively impacted by changes in England. I do recognise those concerns that have been raised by environmental groups and the challenges facing developers when you are operating across borders, but we are committed to ensuring that development is sustainable and committed to identifying where there are more strategic ways to address the systemic issues, for example nutrient pollution, which is a key concern for all of us. We will monitor the implementation of the nature restoration fund and consider whether a similar approach could work for us here in Wales.

And just turning, briefly—sorry, Llywydd—to the Planning (Wales) Bill, based on the current progress of the Planning and Infrastructure Bill through Parliament, we anticipate that there won't be an issue in terms of the timings of the Bills.

In terms of compulsory purchase, as introduced, clauses 83 to 87 and 89 to 92 do make several reforms to the general compulsory purchase Order process and compensation rules, but those are outside of the Senedd's legislative competence. Those provisions will allow the electronic service of statutory notice, simplified requirements for newspaper notices and more delegation of decisions and for authorities to take earlier possession of land and properties. The Bill also extends existing provisions relating to section 14A of the Land Compensation Act 1961, which allows the removal of hope value. It also adds town and community councils to the list of acquiring authorities where they're using compulsory purchase powers to facilitate affordable or social housing. Our Welsh Government officials did secure amendments to these provisions to ensure that they wouldn't interfere with the provisions in an infrastructure consent Order under our own Infrastructure (Wales) Act 2024 relating to temporary possession of land. Whilst these provisions relate to reserved matters and aren't within the Senedd's competence, we were able to get, as I say, some amendments to those areas that did relate to Welsh Ministers' responsibilities.

So, I hope I've managed to answer most of those issues. I do again refer colleagues to the letters that I've sent to committee, where I've tried to address in more detail some of the concerns, particularly around the NSIP process, which I know is the primary concern.

I move. Should I come up?

Oh, would you like to speak as well as move?

Yes, I would, Llywydd. My microphone came on there. Diolch, Llywydd. I move the motions before the Senedd today.

As I begin my speech, I think of the 350 people who shared their lived experience of homelessness to develop this Bill. The weight of getting this right for them lies heavy on my shoulders, as it must on all of ours. This Bill is built on their experience and honed by the expertise of our delivery partners. I thank all of them for their work, which sets the course for implementation.

I want to express my thanks to the Chairs and members of the committees who have worked on this Bill: to the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee for their considered and pragmatic recommendations; to the Finance Committee for their robust assessment of the legislation; and to the Local Government and Housing Committee for their wide-ranging, detailed consideration of our policy intentions. I have provided written responses to each of you in advance of today's debate.

I particularly welcome the recommendation that the Senedd should agree to the general principles of the Bill. The Bill forms part of our long-term ambition to make homelessness rare, brief and unrepeated, to ensure homelessness services are trauma informed, and that preventing homelessness is the responsibility of the Welsh public service. I'm pleased that these principles are supported, and I welcome this opportunity to respond.

I'm grateful to the Finance Committee for their conclusions that they are broadly content with the financial implications of the Bill, as set out in the regulatory impact assessment, subject to the comments and recommendations in their report. Implementing the Bill is expected to cost £247 million in present value terms over a 10-year period. If the reforms achieve improved prevention and relief outcomes as intended, these costs will be outweighed by a present value benefit of £481 million. That means net financial benefits of £235 million over 10 years, meaning that every £1 invested will generate £2 of benefits. And if the non-financial health and earning benefits to individuals are also included, then £703 million of net societal benefits will be achieved, meaning £4 of benefits for every £1 spent.

Recommendations for amendments to the Bill were limited. The majority aim to strengthen implementation and create the context for successful delivery. It has been possible, therefore, to accept or accept in principle the vast majority of the recommendations. I do not intend to address each of the recommendations here. I have done so in my written responses, but I will, however, address specific requests for updates and some areas of challenge. Each of the committees noted the importance of efficient implementation and have called for greater clarity on the face of the Bill. Recommendations are varied in form, but the intention behind each is to ensure that the Bill is implemented and its benefits fully realised. This is a shared objective and I want to provide clarity. I have instructed my officials to draft an amendment to publish progress updates and a requirement for evaluation on the face of the Bill, including a review of 'ask and act'.

I note the calls to publish a timetable. I don't believe this belongs on the face of the Bill, but I'm happy to publish it, should the Bill achieve Royal Assent. A high-level version has already been shared with the Finance Committee.

Another key theme has been balancing individual accountability with a trauma-informed system. This has required careful navigation. I understand views on achieving this equilibrium are mixed. Some wish to see us go further in opening the system, whilst others want to see more red lines for behaviour that places the workforce and the system at risk. I believe this Bill strikes the right balance. It removes the exclusionary priority need and intentionality tests, it narrows the concept of unacceptable behaviour and brings forward the deliberate manipulation test. It also protects the homelessness workforce and ensures that temporary accommodation is safe for those who live and work there. I'm reticent to amend the Bill further and shift these dynamics. Supporting guidance and training will make clear that our focus is how to help people, not whether to help people.

The Local Government and Housing Committee also asked for an update on our work to include the police within the Bill. I also wish to provide the Senedd with an update on the Minister of the Crown consent process. The formal process of consent has not yet concluded, but positive conversations within the UK Government have continued since introduction. I'm confident that we will secure consent for the inclusion of all the bodies listed under the duty to 'ask and act' and the expanded duty to co-operate, meaning that these duties will apply to prisons, probation, youth justice, the Department for Work and Pensions and the Ministry of Defence.

However, concerns have been raised in relation to the broad nature of the regulation-making powers for both the duties to 'ask and act' and to co-operate. Delivering this Bill for the most vulnerable people in our communities is my priority. As such, to address the concerns and to secure consent, I intend to table an amendment to the regulation-making powers at Stage 2. The effect of this amendment will require additional consent from UK Ministers when the power is exercised in relation to reserved authorities. This will provide a mechanism for adding additional reserved authorities in future, provided the UK Government consent at that time.

The Senedd will note that the police are not currently listed in the Bill. As I have made clear, I believe there is a valuable contribution the police could make, and I have met with Home Office Ministers to discuss this. It has not, however, been possible to secure the support of the Home Office, and I'm therefore unable to incorporate the police within the Bill at the current time. I will be working with police and crime commissioners and chief constables in Wales to explore alternative non-legislative approaches to meet our policy intentions, and there is support for this work and good practice that we can build on.

I'm grateful to the committee for the small number of technical recommendations that they have made. At Stage 2, I intend to table amendments to narrow our drafting in relation to common housing registers, and to require the Senedd approval procedure in relation to sections 35 and 38 of the Bill. I also confirm my commitment to issue guidance that addresses every part of the Bill, including section 33, and will make a Stage 2 amendment that requires this.

Llywydd, I have sought to comment today on the more challenging areas of our work. However, I note again that, overall, amendments are very limited, and I really welcome the broad support that the Senedd has given to this Bill. I know from experience that good scrutiny only strengthens legislation, and I'm really grateful to my Senedd colleagues for their work on this Bill and for the work that they will undertake in the future to ensure that homelessness in Wales is rare, brief and unrepeated. I urge the Senedd to support the Bill. Diolch.

Diolch, Llywydd, and I’m pleased to speak in the debate today as Chair of the Local Government and Housing Committee, which has undertaken Stage 1 scrutiny on this Bill. Firstly, I would like to thank everyone who provided evidence for their valuable contributions, which helped shape our report.

The Bill contains a range of provisions relating to homelessness and the allocation of social housing, which are matters of great importance to us as a committee. We feel strongly that nobody should have to experience the trauma of homelessness and, as such, we welcome action that aims to take us further towards the goal of ending homelessness in Wales.

Having considered the evidence presented to us, we recommend that the general principles of the Bill are agreed by the Senedd. While we note the broad support from stakeholders for the aims of the Bill, we also acknowledge that significant concerns have been raised in relation to certain aspects. Legislation alone will not be enough to achieve the ambition of ending homelessness. A major effort is needed to deliver more social housing, which will be key to its success. Alongside more supply, sufficient resources are needed to deliver the changes. These aspects must be prioritised by the current and future Governments if the aims of the Bill are to be achieved.

Our report sets out our recommendations and conclusions, which set out the changes we believe are needed to strengthen this legislation. I will outline some of these areas today.

On implementation, although our recommendation for a duty to publish a timetable has been rejected, I'm pleased that timings have been provided in response to the Finance Committee's report, and I very much welcome what the Cabinet Secretary had to say earlier, which I think is very useful, in terms of the committee's concerns. We do believe that certainty on timings is crucial in preparing for implementation, and of course time must be used wisely, including for training and resourcing the sector.

Part 1 of the Bill includes provisions aimed at preventing homelessness, which we and stakeholders generally welcome. However, local authorities are concerned these could lead to increased demand on a system that is already under pressure. The Bill would abolish the priority need and intentionally homeless tests, meaning that all applicants will be able to access homelessness support if they are deemed eligible. These are significant yet contentious changes, and we heard mixed views on whether they should be included.

As the tests are rarely used and as it is often the most vulnerable people who are penalised by these, we agree that the tests should be abolished. Despite this, we feel that local authorities' concerns should be listened to, and any unintended consequences of abolishing the tests should be mitigated effectively. We understand that abolishing these tests will be among the final provisions to be implemented. In the meantime, the Welsh Government should do more to ensure that local authorities have other operational tools available. Dedicated resource and support should be provided to increase the availability of intensive support services for households with high levels of need. We've recommended that the Welsh Government should identify good practice models of intensive support services for such households, and should provide the resource and leadership needed to require these services to be delivered in every local authority. That balance that the Cabinet Secretary mentioned earlier we think is absolutely crucial to getting this right, and again I welcome what the Cabinet Secretary had to say.

Our report notes the unease expressed by some at the retention of a local connection test in its current form, along with a new local connection to Wales test. Having considered the evidence, we support the new test and the exemption for people if they or someone in their household is at risk of suffering abuse. However, we feel there will be other vulnerable groups who would benefit from such an exemption. We realise that further work is needed on this and have recommended that this be undertaken in order to offer protection to others who need it. I'm pleased that the Cabinet Secretary has indicated acceptance of this.

We welcome the duty to provide help to retain suitable accommodation, as this is a key tool in ensuring that someone can sustain a tenancy. Such help is a critical part of preventing repeated episodes of homelessness. However, we agree with stakeholders that it should be available to those who need it beyond the 12-month period specified in the Bill. In response to our recommendation, the Cabinet Secretary has indicated that the help can be extended. But, as that wasn't clear to stakeholders, I'd like to reiterate the need for clarity. I'm pleased our call to look again at the level of need for such help has been accepted, as we've heard it's likely to be much higher than the 10 per cent of households estimated in the regulatory impact assessment.

The Bill enables a local authority to end its duty to support someone in certain circumstances. We agree that an authority must be able to respond to unacceptable behaviour, and they must have appropriate tools to do so effectively. However, ending homelessness support isn't a sustainable solution, and such a drastic step should only be taken as a last resort. Further options must be in place to enable authorities to respond to poor behaviour without ending support.

We'd like to see the Bill amended to clarify that a duty can only end if all other support mechanisms have been exhausted. And again, it's good to hear what the Cabinet Secretary has had to say, but we would like further elaboration on the reasoning for the particular stance of Welsh Government on this. And also on this issue, and to protect vulnerable people, guidance must be explicit that survivors of abuse must not have their duties ended due to the behaviour of an abusive person living with them.

We welcome the 'ask and act' duty and agree that this has the potential to identify many people in need of homelessness support and to help them to access it. We were surprised by the omission of some key sectors from the list of public bodies and it's been interesting to hear what the Cabinet Secretary has had to say, particularly perhaps in regard to the police. It would be good to have further information in due course on just what those alternative approaches that the Cabinet Secretary mentioned might entail.

On Part 2 of the Bill, on social housing allocation, we have highlighted our significant concerns at providing local authorities with a power to determine categories of people eligible for social housing allocation. Such a power will move us away from the universal idea that anyone can apply for social housing, and we are sceptical as to its inclusion in the Bill. We didn't hear evidence in support of the provision, and we do not feel that Welsh Government has sufficiently made its case for this provision.

Llywydd, I can see that time is rapidly disappearing, so perhaps I could just say again that, as I said earlier, we support the general principles of the Bill, but we believe that acting upon our recommendations would make the legislation more effective. I very much welcome some of the points that the Cabinet Secretary has made today in response to our concerns, but we'd still ask as a committee that the Cabinet Secretary looks very carefully at all the points we have raised, and some of the points that I've mentioned today. Diolch yn fawr.

We are broadly content with the financial implications of the Bill as set out in the regulatory impact assessment. However, we do have some concerns about the robustness of the evidence used as a basis for the cost estimates. The Cabinet Secretary herself has acknowledged the challenges posed by limited data and erratic statistics over the past five years. While we accept that the best available evidence has been used, we believe further modelling is needed to fully understand the public sector cost of homelessness under alternative scenarios.

That's why our first recommendation calls for a sensitivity analysis to be conducted and included in an updated RIA after Stage 2. I'm pleased to see that the Cabinet Secretary accepts this recommendation and will consider different growth rates assumptions and the impact on cost projections in the revised RIA. The Welsh Government intends to provide funding to local authorities during the initial years of implementation and expects financial benefits to more than offset the costs of legislation by 2028-29. We believe local authorities must be supported throughout the transition period, not just at the outset, especially if those financial benefits are delayed.

Our second recommendation seeks clarity on what the Welsh Government considers to be the initial years of the implementation period for funding purposes, and urges the Cabinet Secretary to provide assurances that funding will continue should deficits arise. In response, the Cabinet Secretary sets out the various implementation phases over a 10-year period and recognises that targeted investment will be needed for later phases. She also accepts, in principle, that a future Welsh Government should continue to provide funding to support local authorities if funding deficits arise as a result of financial benefits not being realised as soon as anticipated.

Turning to specific areas in our report, we heard that some investment has already been made to help local authorities realign their homelessness system in preparation for the Bill. Our third recommendation asks for a breakdown of this funding, the activities it has supported, and details on how and when future funding will be distributed to local authorities to reflect their individual needs. Again, the Cabinet Secretary accepts this recommendation in principle and commits to updating the committee following yesterday's publication of the Welsh Government's detailed draft budget.

We are also mindful of the capacity pressures facing local authorities, and heard that some are already restructuring in anticipation of the Bill. Our fourth recommendation is focused on this issue and calls on the Cabinet Secretary to provide details of these restructuring activities and associated costs, and to confirm whether these costs are reflected in the RIA. Accepting this recommendation in principle, the Cabinet Secretary confirms that the full cost of implementation in the RIA has not been adjusted for any work already undertaken by local authorities.

In relation to Part 2 of the Bill, we note that the proposed regulation-making power will allow Welsh Ministers to specify standardised information to be included in the common housing register. This will help to address existing gaps in social housing data, but we feel further work is required in this area. That's why our fifth recommendation asks the Welsh Government to work with local authorities to agree on the data to be included in all registers, and to confirm whether maintaining a common housing register remains cost-neutral for those already operating them. I'm pleased to see that the Cabinet Secretary has accepted this recommendation and will expedite this stakeholder engagement and report back to us.

Diolch, Llywydd. The Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee's report on the Bill drew two conclusions and made five recommendations. I thank the Cabinet Secretary for her response, which the committee considered yesterday.

First, on the accessibility of the Bill, the committee believes the Bill is not easy to follow, and, as a result, it is not easy to understand what changes are being made by reading the Bill on its own. The Cabinet Secretary told the committee that, once the legislation is enforced, all readers would be able to access a comprehensive version of Part 2 of the Housing (Wales) Act 2014 as amended. However, the committee is aware that it is only paid-for services such as Westlaw and LexisNexis that provide comprehensive versions of Acts as amended in a timely fashion. Such services are unlikely to be easily accessible and available to Welsh citizens, who may need to understand the framework for homelessness and housing legislation in Wales and therefore their rights under the legislation.

Still on the theme of accessibility, the committee had some concerns about provisions in the Bill regarding the duty to 'ask and act'. Through section 21, a new section is being added to the 2014 Act that creates a duty on specified public authorities to identify where individuals may be homeless or at risk of homelessness, and then seek their consent to make a referral to the local housing authority. The committee notes in this report that more than a dozen public authorities are specified on the face of the Bill. But the Government is also seeking a Henry VIII power that would enable it to add to the list. The committee considers it to be regrettable, from an accessibility of law point of view, that a final list of public bodies expected to be subject to the 'ask and act' duty is not already specified on the face of the Bill.

I will move on to the committee's consideration of the Government's plans for the implementation of the Bill. These plans will stretch beyond the seventh Senedd and into the eighth Senedd. Given the committee's remit and the focus of our scrutiny, we do not feel that we can comment on the readiness of the sector and its ability to manage the requirements of the new legislation and therefore the pace at which full implementation can be achieved. However, the committee's role would help ensure that the Senedd makes good law that does not over-delegate power to the Executive to be used at an undetermined point in the future. It's for this reason the committee believes the Bill should be strengthened to protect the Senedd and the role of its democratically elected Members, and we have therefore made two recommendations.

First, the Bill should be amended so that the Welsh Ministers are required to report to the Senedd by no later than the end of 2028 on the steps being taken by the Government in progressing towards full implementation of the Act. The Bill should also be amended so that a further report is required to be laid before the Senedd by the end of 2029, which provides an update on the progress being made in implementing the Act. The committee believes this progress report must include details of any delays that have arisen to the implementation timetable outlined in the first report, and the reason for these delays. Secondly, the committee believes the Bill should be amended so that the Welsh Ministers are required to evaluate the Act, including its effectiveness in delivering its objectives, by the end of 2033. The committee welcomes the fact that the Cabinet Secretary is committed to bringing forward amendments to address both of these recommendations.

Finally, the committee has made two recommendations regarding specific delegated powers in Part 2 of the Bill that make provision for social housing allocation. Section 35 delegates a regulation-making power to Welsh Ministers that will enable them to prescribe classes of people who may or may not be treated as qualifying persons owed reasonable preference in the allocation of social housing. It is proposed that such regulations would be subject to the Senedd's annulment procedure. Recommendation 4 in the committee's report is that the Bill should be amended so that these regulations are subject to the Senedd approval procedure.

Similarly, as regulations made under the new sections 160D and 160E, as inserted by section 38 of the Bill, can confer functions on local housing authorities, the committee does not consider that the annulment procedure will afford the Senedd with the appropriate level of scrutiny. And on recommendation 5, the Bill should be amended so that these regulations are also subject to the Senedd approval procedure. Again, the committee welcomes the Cabinet Secretary's acceptance of these recommendations. Diolch, Llywydd.

I know that everyone here supports improvements to tackle homelessness, and from a Conservative perspective, we welcome efforts to do just that, in particular in helping people to avoid becoming homeless in the first instance. Thus, it is in this regard that we support the general principles of this Bill.

However, I will say that, having consulted with numerous stakeholders, it is clear that this legislation is not a silver bullet. The scale of the homelessness crisis in Wales, compounded by the dire state of housing provision, the conflict in Welsh Government policies on housing and the environment, and the fact that the rate of house building is at one of its lowest ever levels, has led many to believe that the Bill's impact will be limited. We must also recognise that homelessness is often rooted in complex personal circumstances—relationship breakdowns, addiction, post-traumatic stress disorder, family conflict, transitions from care or prison, domestic abuse—and housing individuals with such vulnerabilities and complex needs is far from straightforward.

While we can and should provide robust support services, we are going to be faced with persistent challenges, and this may explain why, despite increased efforts by local authorities, the rates of homelessness prevention and relief have remained static since the Housing (Wales) Act 2014. Therefore, in its best form, I believe that this Bill will not end homelessness, but rather help improve the speed and accessibility of accommodation for those who are at risk or already homeless. The Cabinet Secretary has stated that the Bill will expand access to homelessness services and enhance support for those most in need.

I have spoken directly with front-line staff in homelessness services and temporary accommodation, and they face significant challenges, constant threats of violence and inadequate pay that fails to reflect the stress and pressures of their roles. If this Bill is to succeed, it must be accompanied by substantial support for those working in the sector; not just financial, but also in terms of health and well-being. We also need long-term funding for services supporting people affected by addiction and violence. A recurring concern is the short-term nature of funding cycles, which leads to high staff turnover and undermines service consistency. This is not to say that we shouldn't try, but we must be realistic. The Bill is not a quick-fix solution and many pressing issues lie beyond its scope.

A major concern raised by stakeholders is the lack of available housing. The private rental market is contracting in many parts of Wales and there are simply not enough homes to meet demand. The proposal to remove the priority register and intentionality tests is contentious. While I admit, though, that most people currently presenting as homeless do meet priority criteria, shifting to a first-come, first-served model in an already overstretched system risks exacerbating the problem and increasing pressure on services.

From a technical standpoint, the Bill requires significant amendment. For example, the Bill on registered social landlords to accept housing referrals from local authorities must be balanced with a reciprocal duty on local authorities to provide relevant information about tenants' housing and support needs. This will help RSLs to make informed decisions that benefit both individuals and communities, ensuring sustainable tenancies. Without this information, there are real risks to safeguarding and community cohesion. Additionally, the Bill mandates that RSLs and private providers allocate properties for a common housing register maintained by local authorities. If implemented, it is essential that this register captures only social housing, not market or student housing, and allows for necessary transfers outside the register.

We welcome the continued exemption from referral for applicants at risk of abuse if returned to their area of local connection, and the broader definition of abuse to include domestic and other forms—both vital protections for vulnerable individuals. However, we're disappointed that the Bill does not exempt military veterans and their families in Wales from the local connection test. While we acknowledge the Cabinet Secretary's pledge to introduce secondary legislation to address this, we are concerned about this commitment beyond the current parliamentary term, especially given the implementation timeline extending into the next Senedd. It is, therefore, our group's firm position that an exemption for veterans should be incorporated.

Finally, I must express disappointment that the Welsh Government did not consult on the draft Bill, choosing to instead consult only on the White Paper. The absence of input from the housing sector during drafting has created a sense that the Bill is being rushed, which risks unforeseen consequences.

In conclusion, while we support the Bill's general principles, we must be clear about its limitations. Ending homelessness in Wales will require far more. We need to increase the supply of affordable housing, substantially free up the market to build more homes and resolve policy conflicts that currently hinder progress. Without addressing these broader issues, the aims of this Bill will remain out of reach. Thank you.

I'm very pleased to speak today on the general principles of the Bill. I support those principles, I think it's a step forward, and I support the aim of enhancing the prevention and the relief of homelessness in Wales, the fact that it's concentrating on prevention and, in particular, getting rid of intentionality, which I think has caused major problems in preventing homelessness.

However, there are some points I want to make today, particularly to do with how homelessness affects care leavers, and how this particular Bill helps them. According to Public Health Wales, more than one in four of all young homeless people have been in care, with 26 per cent of care-experienced individuals having slept on friends' or families' sofas, and 14 per cent having slept rough on the streets.

The explanatory memorandum notes that there’s a noticeable gap between the legislation and practice when it comes to the implementation of arranging suitable accommodation for care leavers. It’s still commonplace for young people to be discharged from the care system directly into the homelessness system, which is totally unacceptable, because these young people are our responsibility. The fact that they go directly into the homelessness system is something that I hope that this Bill will prevent, because surely we have a duty to ensure that all care leavers have access to safe and secure housing when they come out of the care system. I think we must absolutely make certain that we do all that we can to ensure that they can thrive and flourish in their adult lives by having access to a home, and not let their experiences in care define their futures.

The Bill in its current form has provision to support care leavers up to the age of 21, and care leavers in education until the age of 25. First of all, could I ask the Cabinet Secretary if she could confirm whether this is for care leavers in full-time education, or does it also include part-time education? I think that is a very important point, because there are so many people in part-time education in Wales.

Secondly, the current trend, generally, is that young adults are choosing to stay in their family home due to the impact of rising living costs, and about 30 per cent of 25 to 29-year-olds live with their parents, and more than 11 per cent of 30 to 34-year-olds. So, why should we be expecting care leavers to fend for themselves in the homeless system from the age of 21, when their counterparts do not have to face this? I think this Bill is an opportunity to try to set that right. So, I hope the Cabinet Secretary will think of that.

Also, I think it’s very important to remember that, for young people living in residential children’s homes, they don’t have the option of the When I’m Ready scheme, which is available to children in foster homes. I think it’s a real shock when they come to 18 and have to leave the residential home that they may have been in for a long time. Both Voices from Care Cymru and the National Youth Advocacy Service are clear with their stance that the Welsh Government should extend care leaver support beyond the age of 21—it should be 25 across the board. I think in England it is up to 25, so I would like to think that Wales could ensure that our care leavers are cared for as well as they possibly can be.

There are also some other issues. I think the abolition of priority need is the best thing to do, but I do think that care leavers should be considered carefully, so that they are not impacted negatively by that. Also, on the local connection test, I think the impact on care leavers of not being exempt from the local connection test is one that I’m concerned about, because care leavers often have connections with areas that are not family connections, and friendship networks that link them to a particular area. I think it’s really important that those connections are recognised as being absolutely vital, and vital for their links to local communities. So, I hope we could consider removing care leavers from that particular test. And in terms of 'ask and act', I support the proposal that it should be extended to other bodies, and, in particular, education.

So, I welcome the Bill and its aims, and I think that it’s great that we’re making this move forward. But I do think it’s an opportunity to give more protection to the most vulnerable people in our society and those for whom we actually have responsibility. Diolch.

I absolutely support the principles of the Bill, and Cardiff’s policy of Housing First, because of the huge damage that is done to people who end up on the street. This is a much more expensive option than giving them housing, even if it’s only temporary accommodation.

I think it’s entirely sensible that we extend the definition of the threat of homelessness from 56 days, or eight weeks, to six months or 26 weeks, because that obviously aligns with the amount of notice period that landlords have to give if they want to get the property back from the tenant. It is vital that the local connection to Wales is adhered to rigorously, otherwise we’ll get all of the homelessness issues that are not being dealt with appropriately in England. The failure to close off the loophole of suspending the right to buy is something that should concern us all. But we simply in our small country cannot resolve all the problems of homelessness in England as well as those in Wales.

Yes, we want homelessness to be rare, brief and unrepeated. That's an ambition, but I'm afraid that I slightly agree with Joel James that the impact of this is likely to be limited unless we can find ways of increasing the amount of affordable accommodation, which is mainly social housing. There's just such a huge disconnect between demand and supply. Organisations like the Wallich do fantastic work in my constituency in rehabilitating people who've experienced homelessness, either because of family breakdown, addiction problems or mental health issues, and enabling them to recover their dignity and also their ability to maintain a tenancy. Otherwise, we're simply setting people up to fail.

One of the things that I would like to see more attention paid to is the idea of Foyer accommodation for young people. Where the family relationship has broken down and young people are feeling forced to move out, either because of gross overcrowding or because of abuse, we do need to be supporting young people to be able to hold down a tenancy rather than just expecting them to somehow acquire the ability to manage their bills on a very tight income.

I note that Shelter seems to have done some very effective work, from their briefing, because it's extraordinary that they've managed to prevent homelessness in nine out of 10 of the cases they've taken, and that is really quite outstanding. I hope that the committee that's going to be exploring this is going to really try and identify how they managed to do that and whether that can be applied across the board.

I think one of the things where I'm afraid I'm a bit cynical is this 'ask and act' duty, because we know that unfortunately the prison service does not, in the main, make the arrangements that are needed to ensure that, when leaving prison, people have somewhere to go, because otherwise the recidivism rate will continue to be as terrible as it is.

I think there's a lot to commend in this, but there's a great deal to be done to ensure that the fine words in this Bill, which is obviously what the expert housing panel has asked us to do, are met by the policy changes that are needed to ensure that there is more affordable housing available.

As Members of the Senedd, homelessness and housing issues fill our inboxes, and having a home where you feel safe and secure is a basic human right. So, this piece of legislation is very welcome and it is vital that the Welsh Government gets it right. I agree with John Griffiths that it's important that the Welsh Government carefully consider accepting the recommendations of the Local Government and Housing Committee.

The top priority must be a focus on preventative action. That needs to be taken early to avoid an individual becoming homeless in the first place. That early intervention is needed to ensure anyone who's living with the threat of homelessness receives the right support and advice in a timely manner. I was very pleased to see the extension of the definition of being threatened with homelessness from 56 days to six months. That's really welcome and I hope that will have a significant impact on the number of people who are homeless in Wales. How many times have we been contacted by a constituent just too late to stop them losing their home?

I'm sure that this goes for the many organisations who help individuals in their pursuit of finding suitable accommodation. I really do think this extension will prevent some homelessness occurring in the first place. Much of the evidence we've heard during early scrutiny of the Bill, especially from organisations working to end homelessness, have welcomed that proposed change. We also need to stop families being placed in temporary accommodation that is completely unsuitable, with no facilities to be able to feed or care for your family.

Cabinet Secretary, you talked about the financial costs in your opening statement, but, of course, the human cost of homelessness cannot be overestimated. It is traumatic and I know that in drafting this Bill you personally engaged with many individuals who unfortunately have lived experience. I think that that engagement that you talked about with over 300 people will absolutely enhance this piece of legislation.

I was particularly interested to hear the Cabinet Secretary state during scrutiny that removing the priority-need test will benefit so many individuals. We know that during the COVID-19 pandemic, local authorities didn't operate with priority need in order to provide accommodation rapidly for as many people as possible. That test was removed many years ago in Scotland, so what discussions has the Cabinet Secretary and her officials had with their counterparts in Scotland to understand the impact of removing priority need? In particular, were there any unintended consequences that we can learn from?

As part of prevention of homelessness, early support needs to be made available to everyone and removing the intentionality test will provide this. Just the phrase 'intentionally homeless' makes me shudder. Why would anybody make themselves homeless intentionally? I had a constituent who wanted to leave an abusive relationship and she was told that that would be making herself intentionally homeless, and therefore no support or alternative accommodation would be offered. That cannot be right.

Whilst I appreciate the number of people across Wales who are deemed to have made themselves intentionally homeless is relatively small, I very much welcome the removal of this test. I see it as a vital part of this legislation and its aims. However, I do recognise that some local authorities are concerned at the removal of this test and the introduction of the deliberate manipulation test that you are proposing. So, could the Cabinet Secretary clarify what the new test is aiming to achieve in the prevention of homelessness?

We will all have seen the appalling state of some of the temporary accommodation in our constituencies that are offered to an individual when they become homeless. So, I very much welcome the commitment set out in the Bill to publish a report every five years on the use and the condition of temporary accommodation. I do hope that this will lead to a significant rise in standards. But of course, temporary accommodation should be a last resort. I, of course, support the general principles of the Bill, but I very much look forward to further scrutiny of the Bill as a member of the Local Government and Housing Committee.

Diolch, Llywydd. Let me start by thanking everybody for their contributions today. I think it is really clear to me that preventing homelessness in Wales is a shared cross-party ambition. This Bill has been years in development. As I said, we have gone through a long process on this, and my predecessor, Julie James, has also gone through that process. Just speaking to those 350 people with lived experience, when I was able to introduce the Bill, and to be able to hear from and to speak directly to those people who came to the Senedd—. This very much reminds me of that, and they are very much in my mind.

Of course, there are areas of the Bill where Members would like to see change and I am open to working with colleagues across these benches on those changes. But it is clear to me that the foundations of this Bill are strong, the ambition is clear and the purpose is right. This view is supported by the scrutiny committees and by our stakeholders, and I urge you all to agree those general principles today.

Llywydd, there were many contributions. I can see that I won't be able to go through all of those contributions, but I have made copious notes. This is very much a bold and ambitious Bill. It's going to transform our homelessness system, so it does focus on early intervention and prevention, and avoids pushing people towards crisis. And that's something that both Siân Gwenllian and Lesley Griffiths mentioned, about the importance of that early intervention, and Lesley spoke very powerfully about those people who have been threatened with homelessness, and what a difference that change of moving to prevention from 56 days to six months will make.

I'm grateful to John Griffiths for his contribution and for also touching, as other Members did, on supply. Obviously, I understand that supply is part of this whole puzzle, but we know that creating more homes is one of our key priorities, not least because we know about social housing and how that can help to reduce poverty, improve physical and mental health and well-being, help educational outcomes and help drive economic growth. But let's be clear, we are putting record levels of investment, over £2 billion this Senedd term, into housing, and we will continue to do that. That is very much part of that whole jigsaw.

Thank you, Peredur, for your contribution. I've been really clear that investment up-front is needed. That was something, again, that you were able to note as well, and that being included in the draft budget as well, as local authorities begin that transition process. That's really important and we'll continue, obviously, to work with our local authority colleagues and other partners, but, as others have said, there really is a cost to doing nothing as well. At the moment, our system pushes people to that crisis point and there is that human cost that we all are aware of as well. There will be a phased approach, and I think that is essential for effective implementation of the Bill, and that will ensure that our delivery partners are fully engaged.

Joel James touched on the workforce, and I know the workforce is absolutely incredible. We can't end homelessness without a strong, skilled and supported workforce. Staff do vital work, often in very tough conditions, and we are, all of the Chamber—I'm sure I can speak for all of us—deeply grateful for all that the workforce do. We do have a task and finish group on workforce, and that's developing recommendations on things such as pay, skills, support staff, recruitment and commissioning.

I'd also like to mention the point that Joel made around veterans as well. We've asked officials to consider plans to prevent local connection acting as a prioritisation mechanism for veterans applying for allocation of social housing, using our existing powers, and this will help stop veterans being pushed down the list for social housing just because they don't have a local link. So, we've also begun to review our national housing pathway for ex-service personnel as well. Siân Gwenllian mentioned that social housing waiting lists are registers of people who would like social housing, but they're not registers of housing need and can't be relied on for assessing housing need, both at a national and local level.

Just in response to Julie Morgan, who I know very much deeply cares about care-experienced young people, as I do and as, I know, do other Members in the Chamber today, I just want to thank her for highlighting the important issues of care-experienced young people and how often they've been left out in the cold by our system. I believe that trying to keep care leavers outside of this homelessness system is absolutely crucial. I think that's one of the things this Bill will do. We do not want to see a young person leaving care and being taken to the homelessness services. That is not what this Bill will do. This is going to, I believe, rectify that. But it is focusing on the transition point. So, when a young person leaves care and is most at risk of homelessness, it ensures that care leavers, whether homeless or not, are prioritised for social housing. So, the Bill mirrors the six categories of care leavers set out in our Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014, and the new section of 108A duties are intended to operate alongside and not instead of existing duties set out in the social services and well-being Act. But I welcome the recommendation of the Local Government and Housing Committee to assess the case for extending provisions aimed at care leavers in future, and I've accepted this recommendation in principle and will look at this as part of our wider work. I agree with the committee that, if a change to primary legislation is required in the future, then it is better done through the amendment to the social services and well-being Act, as this will require more extensive consideration with stakeholders.

But, Llywydd, this is a policy I know that we all care deeply about, and I urge the Senedd to support the Bill. Diolch.