Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru

Welcome, all, to this afternoon's Plenary meeting. The first item on our agenda this afternoon is questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Economy, Energy and Planning. The first question, [OQ62636], from Janet Finch-Saunders, is withdrawn. So, the first question to be asked this afternoon is the one from Peredur Owen Griffiths.

The Welsh Government has a range of support available for high-street businesses in Wales. This includes investment in town centres, non-domestic rates relief, implementation of our retail action plan, and business advice, information and support through Business Wales.

Thank you very much for that response.

In recent weeks, Plaid Cymru unveiled our economy strategy, which outlined bold and progressive ways in which our economy can be grown and people can be lifted out of poverty. Part of the strategy contains a proposal to overturn the fate of our high streets, which have been in decline for decades—decline typified by the impending loss of Santander from Blackwood high street. We have suggested varying non-domestic rates so that domestic small and medium-sized enterprises and the independent high-street retailers are favoured when compared to larger multinationals and out-of-town retailers, who often have the benefits of free parking. This is about creating a level playing field to ensure that our smaller homegrown retailers are able to compete with their much larger and better-resourced international counterparts. Do you agree that we need radical and progressive policies to give our high streets a huge stimulus and reverse the decline that has set in, and what are you doing about it?

Well, Plaid Cymru might have suggested varying rates and multipliers, but this Welsh Government has put in place the framework through legislation to allow those kinds of things to happen. So, colleagues will be aware that, at the moment across Wales, we have a single multiplier, but the legislation that this Senedd passed last year now enables there to be future changes in terms of the multiplier. That can be done on a geographical basis, for example, or it could be done by sector. So there is a whole range now of exciting things that could happen in relation to non-domestic rates thanks to the Local Government Finance (Wales) Act 2024 that this Senedd passed after this Welsh Government laid it before the Senedd. So, when you look at the support that we are providing to businesses through non-domestic rate relief, it is absolutely significant. For example, we're providing an additional package of support worth £134 million this year, and that's on top of our regular permanent package of support. So, overall, we're providing more than a third of £1 billion of support to businesses, and every single ratepayer will benefit from the package of support that we've announced.

Cabinet Secretary, our high streets and town centres are indeed the lifeblood of many of our communities, yet they are facing an increasingly challenging environment. Businesses are struggling with the national insurance hike imposed by your Labour colleagues in London, they are being punished by the highest business rates in Great Britain, and they are having to compete with out-of-town shopping centres and online retailers. It's certainly not easy for them. At one of my recent advice surgeries in Blackwood, the high street was indeed a very hot topic. The town has seen a number of shops pull their shutters down for the last time, with the finger of blame being pointed to the high levels of business rates. And it's not something that's just exclusive to Blackwood; it's happening right across the region of South Wales East. Not only do we need urgent action to support our high-street businesses, by reducing the financial burden that they're facing, but we need wider action to boost footfall. So, how is the Welsh Government working with local authorities specifically across my region of South Wales East to fully regenerate our towns and cities, and what concrete action are you going to be taking to achieve all of this? Thank you

The Welsh Government is working really closely with local authorities across south-east Wales, and particularly so through the work that we're doing through Transforming Towns and our 'town centre first' approach. Transforming Towns is in the portfolio of my colleague the Cabinet Secretary for Housing and Local Government, but I know that she's really, really proud of the £44 million that's been made available to local authorities across south-east Wales for town-centre improvement. They're also supporting the use of digital technology by town-centre businesses through the Transforming Towns-funded Smart Towns programme. That includes using footfall data and customer and catchment insights to help businesses better understand their customer base and trends, which will support businesses in their future planning and market activity. So, there's a range of activities being taken forward through that particular programme. And, of course, I would highlight the fact that the Development Bank of Wales is a really, really key asset to support small businesses to access loan and equity finance, and they stimulate business growth in an ethical and sustainable way. So, they can help businesses get the finance that they need to strengthen and grow, from loans as small as £1,000 up to £10 million. So, I would absolutely ask businesses to explore what opportunities are available to them through the development bank as well.

I want to raise a specific local business, if I may. Caffi Tyleri is a vital community asset in Cwmtillery. They run ecology projects, they've planted more than 2,000 trees and they've established a wetland ecosystem that's been studied by university students as far away as Surrey. And they also run baking workshops and free-soup Fridays, and when the landslide from the coal tip happened last year, the cafe opened its doors as a safe space and a warm hub. But those doors could soon close because the shared prosperity funding they rely on hasn't been released and it's expected to be lower than in previous years. The funding had previously paid for five jobs. They fear it will now only pay for two. That uncertainty is causing stress for staff. Some of them are staying on as volunteers to try and keep the cafe open. So, could I ask what urgent discussions you've had, and can you have, please, with Westminster about the effect these funding cuts are having on businesses like Caffi Tyleri, and what support can this Government give to keep their doors open?

I know this isn't the first time that Caffi Tyleri has been mentioned in the Chamber. I recall it was mentioned after the landslide and Delyth Jewell set out on that occasion the incredible work that they were doing to support the community after that.

I have been having discussions with the UK Government, but also, in fact, today, with the chairs of the corporate joint committees from across Wales in terms of the future of regional investment funding. As colleagues will know, the funding this year has been reduced as compared to previous years, but we are very much focused on what happens post April 2026. We'll get more information at the comprehensive spending review on 11 June. We're not in a position at this point to know where we're heading, particularly, in relation to that yet, because the details just aren't available. But recognising the need for speedy work, we've asked all of our CJCs to do some rapid work to understand where their SPF funding is currently headed and what the implications are for jobs and crucial services locally, just so that we are in a position then to take those informed decisions as soon as we have the data available to us to do so.

The Welsh Government remains committed to regional working and the role of CJCs in Wales as well as collaborative cross-border working. Strong relationships with local authorities, businesses and universities support our vision for a prosperous Wales, which has many synergies with our counterparts in the west of England.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. The Western Gateway project represented £17 billion for the UK economy and unbridled growth for south Wales. Yet, many businesses in my region feel as if the rug has been pulled out from under them. Catherine Fookes, the Labour MP for Monmouthshire and co-chair of the all-party group for the project, said that she would work with MPs to ensure that Westminster got behind the project. Soon after, funding was withdrawn by the Westminster Government. The Welsh Labour Government continue to put party over country and get behind a Government that drags investment away from Wales. Cabinet Secretary, will you admit that removing this vital funding will take away the momentum of the economic growth within south Wales? And given the feeling of betrayal in areas like Monmouthshire, what specific conversations has the Welsh Government had with the UK Government to defend the interests of our cross-border communities? Diolch. 

I do understand, of course, that local authorities would be disappointed with the decision by the UK Government to stop the funding of the Western Gateway. I've met with the Western Gateway myself, and actually I've been very complimentary about the work that it did. I did recognise the importance of that cross-border working, especially where local authorities either side of the Severn had similar aspirations and were addressing similar challenges. I do still think that those strong working relationship that have been developed through the Western Gateway will continue and there will continue to be opportunities for collaborative working. And, particularly, I recognise the important work that was done by the Severn Estuary Commission, which was established by the Western Gateway. They were developing proposals for tidal in the Severn. So, I think, again, that is a really, really important piece of work that came out of the Western Gateway and provides a really important contribution to the development of tidal energy and to energy security and net zero more widely.

But I share a colleague's disappointment that the funding has been withdrawn, but equally there are options available, I think, to the Western Gateway. It was a relatively small amount of money. There was a large number of partners involved, so there are other ways, I think, for them to co-invest, should they wish to do so. But I'm absolutely sure that those strong relationships will continue to deliver for people on both sides of the estuary.

Questions now from the party spokespeople. The Welsh Conservatives' spokesperson, Samuel Kurtz.

Diolch, Llywydd. Cabinet Secretary, in the Chancellor's emergency budget in March, she announced the creation of a defence growth board, intended to integrate growth considerations into defence processes. However, recent reports indicate that this board has not convened a single meeting, lacks defined terms of reference, and has no dedicated staff. Given Wales's significant contribution to the UK's defence sector not just in personnel, but in facilities like the Castlemartin firing range in my constituency and the Cawdor barracks in my colleague Paul Davies's constituency, this inaction raises concerns. So, how does the Welsh Government plan to ensure that Wales's defence industry does not miss out on the growth opportunities due to the apparent inactivity of this board, and what steps is the Welsh Government taking to advocate for Wales's interest in this area?

I can reassure colleagues that there is absolutely no inaction on the part of the UK Government in respect of the new focus that there has been, necessarily, on defence recently. I was in a meeting of the inter-ministerial group on business and industry, which I chaired, yesterday, and that was an opportunity for us to talk about the importance of defence, which will be recognised in the industrial strategy. So, the focus is absolutely there on the part of the UK Government.

I share colleagues' interest in what this means for Wales. We've got eight of the world's top 11 defence companies operating here in Wales, and we have good relationships with those businesses. So, we're absolutely in a place, I think, to contribute well to the UK Government's growth strategy in this particular area. I'd also say I'm really interested in the UK Government's approach in relation to multi-use of investment in defence, but also in innovation in defence. For example, drone technology can be used for defence purposes, but also has much wider applications as well. So, I think that that approach is really important to maximise the value from investment and from innovation.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. You say there's been no inaction, but, as I mentioned, this hasn't even convened a single meeting yet. You talk about what the Welsh Government is doing, but we learnt yesterday, yes, there might be eight out of the 11 top defence businesses in Wales, but no Welsh business looking to be within the defence sector can access support from the Development Bank of Wales. Surely that's a lever that you can pull to help boost defence businesses here in Wales.

And as we're reminded by the VE Day celebrations tomorrow of the importance of our defence industry to our national security, equally, our energy security underpins our resilience as a nation. Whilst in response to a written question I submitted in April you stated that energy security is a reserved matter for the UK Government, the responsibility for ensuring Wales is prepared for future energy needs falls to you, the Welsh Government. Your Government's own analysis shows that electricity demand in Wales may almost triple by 2050, requiring major upgrades to both transmission and distribution networks. So, given the urgency and scale of this challenge, what action is the Welsh Government taking now to ensure our grid is fit for purpose and that Wales is not exposed to future energy shocks?

Well, I don't want to embarrass the leader of the Welsh Conservatives or the spokesperson, but I'm afraid that everything that the leader of the Conservatives said yesterday in relation to the development bank and defence was completely incorrect. There is a short list of exclusions set out in finance awards between the Welsh Government and the bank, and these preclude investment by the bank in businesses engaged in the gambling sector, pornography, and in businesses offering sexual services. Investment in defence and defence-related businesses is not precluded. The bank will not invest in any illegal activity, and investments made by the development bank or loans issued by the bank are made at the discretion of the bank, and those decisions are taken at arm's length from the Government. Clearly, the leader of the Welsh Conservatives yesterday was confused, but I'm glad to have had this opportunity to set the record straight.

In relation to energy network needs, clearly, colleagues will be familiar with our 'Future Energy Grids for Wales' report, showing that Wales's electricity demand will or may almost triple by 2050. So, we are working hard to make sure that we are in a place to ensure that we do have that security for the future. We're working closely with the UK Government to deliver the 'Clean Power 2030' vision, and that work has been really clear on the need to increase UK battery capacity in this period as well. So, we're doing some important work in that particular space.

And, of course, colleagues will be familiar with the work that we're doing with the new national energy system operator, which is beginning work on a strategic spatial energy plan. The Welsh Government will be on the committee that will oversee the work to develop that plan. But, of course, in Wales we are already in an advanced position, because we do have our local, regional and national plans already in place, which puts us in a really strong position to be clear about our needs and provide the evidence that’s needed for future investment, for example, in the grid.

I can tell you who else is able to access Development Bank of Wales funding is convicted environmental criminals as well. But surely you’d agree, as you mentioned there, Cabinet Secretary, that energy security is intrinsically linked to economic security, and that requires economic growth. Yet the Future Generations Commissioner for Wales recently dismissed growth and competitiveness as outdated, quote, 'twentieth-century strategies', suggesting they lack purpose. I’d argue that the purpose of growing the economy is to fund public services. He also accused your Government of simply echoing UK economic policy. But if your Government is indeed following the UK’s approach, why does Wales continue to fall behind the rest of the UK on economic growth? So, which is it? Does your Government seriously believe that economic growth is no longer relevant, as the commissioner believes, or is this Welsh Government just failing to achieve it?

So, just to be clear, the future generations commissioner is not a member of the Welsh Government. The future generations commissioner is there to provide challenge and to provide information, advice and support, just in case there was any confusion on that as well.

But looking ahead, I’m sure colleagues will be really pleased to see that the most recent International Monetary Fund forecasts are for the UK to have higher real gross domestic product growth than the other three European G7 economies in 2025 and 2026. And the longer term projections are for the UK to be the fastest growing European G7 economy each year until 2030. And, similarly, the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development's most recent forecasts are for the UK to have the second-fastest growing economy in the G7 in 2025, behind the USA. So, clearly, there is confidence in the work that the UK Government is undertaking, particularly through the industrial strategy, which we’re very involved with, and are looking to deliver here in Wales.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson to ask questions of the Minister for Culture, Skills and Social Partnership. Heledd Fychan. 

Thank you, Llywydd. The recent report by the future generations commissioner expressed concerns about the arts, culture and sport, highlighting a decrease in participation, particularly amongst children and young people. These were some of the statistics quoted: the number of children who have attended a cultural event has decreased by 7 per cent, and the number of adults by 6 per cent; the number of pupils who have participated in organised sport, outside of the curriculum, three times or more per week, has decreased by 9 per cent.

I have been raising concerns for years now that there is a risk that the lack of investment and the significant cuts in these sectors have meant that fewer people can access the arts and sport, and that there is a risk, too, that participation is becoming increasingly elitist. Do you share my concerns, and if so, what are you doing to reverse this trend?

Can I thank Heledd Fychan for those questions this afternoon, and the future generations commissioner for his report, and for the statement within the report? You’re right to point to the importance of sport, and the participation in sport, and the importance of, as well as improving access to sport, getting people, both children and adults, to take part in participating in the sport of their choice. We’re absolutely committed to doing that. So, you will have seen in the latest budget, Llywydd, an increase to Sport Wales’s budget in capital investment to improve access in those key capital areas. And you will also see one of the direct—. This year, we are calling it ‘The Women’s Year in Sport in Wales’, and you’ll see, through the Euros, and the fantastic achievement of the women’s team getting to the Euros in the summer, for the first time ever, an investment of £1 million into a partner support fund. You will see investment into women’s golf and facilities to improve that access, the access that you recognise, and I think everyone recognises as important—£1 million investment into Wales's golf, to improve facilities across the country, in every single area of the country.

I absolutely agree with you that participation in sport, and investment into this area, is important, and that’s why we increased the budget to these areas in the final budget. It was a shame opposition Members tried to vote that budget down.

Thank you very much for that response, but as you know full well, the increase that there has been is not sufficient, and hasn't taken us back even to the level of funding that we saw a few years ago. If you look at the report of the future generations commissioner, there is no mention of the lack of investment that you've talked about, but the costs of transport, the costs of being able to participate, and also that some of the cuts mean that there is less access to museums and so on.

So, what I would like to see is how we can ensure that that specific question that I asked, that it doesn't become elitist, is responded to, because culture is ordinary. That's what Raymond Williams said. A number of us believe in that—that culture and sport are a right for everybody to be able to participate in them. How do we stop them from becoming elitist?

I thank the Member for that. Presiding Officer, there was an opportunity for all Members to support more money into the sector in the arts, and I hear the moans and groans of the Chamber—from all sides of the chamber. There was an opportunity for that, wasn't there, in the final budget to increase the funding, but opposition parties decided to vote against—[Interruption.] Opposition parties decided to vote against that. Now, when they do that—and they have every right to vote against budgets in this place—they have to be comfortable with the consequences of that budget not passing. That is the reality of politics. And if that was the case, if they were successful, Plaid Cymru and the Tories, in voting down the budget this year, arts and sports and all sectors across Wales would have had even less than they did last year.

We're very pleased to be able to increase the budget, because the Member is right—I don't want culture or sports to become elitist. I agree with her, it's for everybody. I look forward to launching the priorities for culture on 20 May, where I will set out and state very clearly that culture is for everybody. I do not accept a pre-described version by some. And you will have seen in recent months, Presiding Officer, that some do indeed seem to think that culture is for just some people. I'm very proud to be a former apprentice, and I'm proud to be a former apprentice from the shop floor who is Wales's culture Minister. I think that embodies why culture is for everybody, and we look forward to delivering against the 'priorities for culture', a document that was co-produced with the sector and indeed with Plaid Cymru up until the point Plaid Cymru left the co-operation agreement early.

I'm disappointed your script hasn't been updated in recent months, because clearly the questions I asked were relating to the future generations commissioner and the statistics there. And Welsh Government have underfunded culture and sports long before the previous budget, so really you're not taking responsibility as a Government, and you can't do any better than some pre-rehearsed and pre-rehashed lines, which is disappointing.

If I can ask you, one other issue is about Donald Trump's recent announcement about imposing 100 per cent tariff on films not produced in the United States of America. Equity has called for a calm response and has called on the UK Government to stand up for the British film industry, and that the tariffs could be addressed positively through properly funding our public service broadcasters and ensuring an attractive and fair tax and investment environment for studios and production. As you know, tv and film production has grown in Wales in recent years and is a vital part of our economy. So, what's your reaction to Trump's announcement, and what discussions have taken place with the UK Government on this issue since the announcement was made?

I thank Heledd for bringing that issue to the Chamber today. Just in response to the previous comment before that question, what would have been disappointing, Presiding Officer, is if the sector of the arts and sports had even less money if Plaid Cymru were successful. You may think that's disappointing, but that is the reality of what you all politically chose to do, Presiding Officer.

And I will turn to the Member's points on Donald Trump and the comments of the very recent past he has made. I agree, I think there needs to be a calm response to that. Look, we need to understand the detail of what Donald Trump has said and what the implications of the said tariffs mean. What he says and what the reality is, as we all know, may not be the actual reality, but we need to respond to that. And that will need to be a joint response with our UK colleagues in investing in the creative industries sector. I was very pleased during Easter recess to discuss the creative industries with the Minister for the Creative Industries, Arts and Tourism, Chris Bryant, at the UK Government level to see how we can work together. Indeed, we'll need to have a further discussion about how we respond to the challenges, if what Trump has said becomes reality. 

What we do know in the creative industries is that, since the establishment of Creative Wales in 2020, from investment into production funding of over £27 million, I believe, Presiding Officer, we've received a return on investment into the Welsh economy of over £340 million. That is a real success story, something that we should be proud of, something that we want to continue to support. And we will, through Creative Wales, go on to continue to support the creative industries sector with whatever challenges the future brings up, because we believe in the sector.

I was very pleased this morning to visit the ITV studios, not just to hear about how they produce news and current affairs programmes, but actually how they produce productions for other producers as well—S4C, BBC as well—and to meet the apprentices there who will go through their programme and be the future of ITV and other studios here. What's very pleasing to me is the response from the sector to Creative Wales already. I think I've said before that Jane Tranter, who is the chief executive of Bad Wolf—. To put it in her words, Presiding Officer, Welsh Government money and Welsh Government putting its money where its mouth is really does offer green shoots of hope for the sector. We all want to continue that relationship with the sector, but obviously take seriously the concerns that have been raised very recently, and we'll work with the sector collaboratively to overcome them.

The revised local development plan is still in development, but the Welsh Government is fully engaged in this process and submitted a formal response to initial proposals in April 2024. Details are yet to be determined, but Welsh Ministers will consider these as they become available and make formal representations if required.

Thank you. Residents in Rhondda are frustrated and concerned about the increasing number of barbers and vape shops opening on our high streets. We understand that vaping can help some people quit smoking, but the marketing and bright colours used by vape stores often target children and young people, which raises fears that they might encourage young people who would never have smoked to start vaping. There are also worries that some vape shops may be used as fronts for illegal activity.

Last week, it was announced that Porth will see another barber shop opening its doors, taking the number from 13 to 14. Local development plans can be used to prevent new stores from opening near schools or in areas already saturated with shops, or if they alter the character of the town centre. What can Welsh Government do to highlight the importance of local development plans and encourage more people to participate in this vital planning process in the future?

I'm really grateful to Buffy Williams for highlighting these points this afternoon. Local development plans are really important tools in guiding the adaptation of our town centres as our shopping habits change and in seeking to maintain the viability of those important spaces in our communities. So, encouraging participation by the public in the development of those plans is absolutely critical, because the life of our town centres is important to all of us, and we absolutely miss them when they've gone and when they start to deteriorate. So, vibrant town centres are really important, so it's a really good call on communities to take an interest in those local development plans.

It's not the function of the planning system to interfere with or inhibit competition between users and investors in land or to regulate development for other than land use planning reasons, but it is absolutely in the public interest to intervene through local development plans where there is an overconcentration of particular use, or where that overconcentration in and of itself threatens the viability of that town centre. So, there is that protection within the planning, but I absolutely will echo Buffy's call for people within the community to get involved and have their say in the LDP.

Thank you, Minister, for that response. It is clearly the oversaturation of a marketplace where there are 14 of one type of shops, i.e. barber shops—and I feel a bit nervous going on about barber shops, because I don't give them much business these days. But to have a town such as Porth, with 6,000 residents, being served by 14 barber shops cannot be right. You are the planning Minister. You've highlighted the importance of a sense of place in the planning system and a sense of purpose for that planning system to work for the community good. Will you be emphasising to Rhondda Cynon Taf that they can use the powers that already exist to make sure that high streets within the council area are diverse, are relevant, and don't oversaturate a particular aspect of the offer on that particular high street that actually ends up to the detriment of people going on and carrying out their business and making it a vibrant place for the community to enjoy?

As I said in response to Buffy Williams, it is in the public interest to intervene through local development plans when there is an overconcentration of a particular use and when that overconcentration does threaten the viability and the vitality of a town centre. I think the planning system in and of itself is quite limited in some ways, because it can't address existing outlets, so, where you do have an existing concentration of outlets, there's nothing that can be done through the planning system itself to address that. But there is the opportunity to use the LDP process to identify communities where local policies can be applied to proposals for new premises. So, for example, Welsh Government's taken action previously in relation to overconcentration of gambling and betting shops, for example, and that was able to be addressed by changing use classes so that local planning authorities could use their LDP plans to address overconcentration of those premises.

So, there's absolutely, I think, some more consideration needing to be given to the fact that we are seeing overconcentration of some types of businesses, which will obviously have an impact on competition for those other businesses within that space as well. But, as I say, it's not the function of the planning system itself to interfere with or inhibit competition, so it is a complex piece, but I think the most important message is about using LDPs to address those overconcentrations when it does threaten the vitality of a town centre.

The Welsh Government’s planning policies for the consideration of proposals for large-scale solar farms are contained within 'Future Wales: The National Plan 2040' and 'Planning Policy Wales'.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. Many residents in my constituency are incredibly concerned by plans for a very large industrial-scale solar farm near Ponthir, spanning parts of Monmouthshire, Torfaen and Newport. Now, this massive solar farm presents huge environmental concerns. It would be sited on 300 acres of usable farmland, a real issue for many, certainly including myself, and this is often the case with many of these things. Now whilst yes, of course, we need to get away from our overreliance on fossil fuels, we have to be careful where renewable energy schemes are built and how big they are, and that they don't compromise our environment, present a negative visual effect, and, of course, fundamentally, our ability to produce food. Whilst we all aspire to protect our environment, it's important we don't allow schemes like this to dramatically affect or damage that environment in the quest for more renewables. So, Cabinet Secretary, what further assessment does the Welsh Government make of the environmental and agricultural impacts of building industrial-scale solar farms like this one proposed in my constituency?

Well, we do have a comprehensive and up-to-date planning policy, which does allow for the consideration of proposed solar developments across Wales. Clearly, I can't comment on the merits or otherwise of individual projects, as it's likely that Welsh Ministers will have a role in their determination. But it is worth me, I think, pointing to 'Future Wales: The National Plan 2040', which does set out those national-scale policies for renewable energy projects, and I know that colleagues were particularly interested in looking at policy 17 of 'Future Wales'. That emphasises the importance of proposals identifying what the net benefits would be of a scheme in terms of social, economic, environmental and cultural improvements to local communities, so I think that's really important, as is policy 18 of 'Future Wales', and that seeks to ensure that there are no unacceptable adverse visual impacts on nearby communities and individual dwellings or unacceptable adverse impacts by way of shadow flicker, noise, reflected light, air quality or electromagnetic disturbance. Again, those are really important within the consideration of planning applications for renewable energy schemes.

And then, just to highlight as well 'Future Wales' states that the provision of access to a site for construction and maintenance of a scheme has to respond to the environment in which the renewable and low-carbon energy projects are already located. So, whilst I can't comment on the particular scheme this afternoon, it is helpful, I think, if I set out some of the policies that will be important in consideration of those proposals.

Diolch. As Minister for Culture, Skills and Social Partnership, I and the Minister for Further Education and Higher Education regularly discuss what colleges are doing to support WorldSkills competitions.

Thank you for your response.

Skills Competition Wales aims to raise the profile of skills in Wales, offering the opportunity to challenge and to empower by taking part in competitions right across sectors. It's also the first step into national and international skills competitions for many students, and the testimonies of learners at Coleg Cambria, an FE institution we're both familiar with, certainly attest to that, for the way in which it both enhances skills but also encourages aspirations to strive towards the next stage. Indeed, it seems that's right throughout Wales, not least, Minister, in our corner of the country, as three Grŵp Llandrillo Menai learners have been chosen for the UK squad for WorldSkills Shanghai 2026, including a student at Coleg Llandrillo's Rhyl campus, who's part of the renewable energy squad. Minister, will you first join me in saying,

'Congratulations and good luck'

to all learners taking part from Skills Competition Wales to WorldSkills in Shanghai next year? Further, how will the Welsh Government's skills priorities match the needs of industry, especially when we want Wales to be at the forefront of net-zero technology, and how will specific industry skill requirements be integrated into the training and preparation for the WorldSkills competition? Diolch.

Well, can I thank Hannah Blythyn for that very important question and for the Member's interest in this subject? It's a subject we're both incredibly passionate about, and, indeed, the area that we represent is passionate about as well. Hannah Blythyn is right to say that skills competitions are, I think, another area referencing the amount of people from Wales who represent team UK—it very much is another area where Wales punches above its weight. But it's also a way for individuals, learning providers and employers to internationally benchmark their training provision, and it's a way for learners to enhance their skill sets through those simulated work practices.

The Member asked about the specific skills being identified, and referenced the two local colleges in north Wales, and I look forward to visiting the renewable energy hub in the coming weeks to see there. But, as a time-served machinist myself, I was very pleased to see that Tomas Ankers from Electroimpact, and representing Coleg Cambria in team UK, is at EuroSkills in the CNC milling competition. CNC milling is absolutely an essential skill in advanced manufacturing, and it's a skill that we will look to use as we look to build the next generation of green products. That's just one example of skills that are being identified to internationally benchmark and make sure we're competing at the top level.

What we are seeing is these skills being introduced, and the way of learning these skills being introduced, at every level of the college now so every student, not just students who've taken part in this competition, are learning to this standard. I absolutely, of course, will join Hannah Blythyn in wishing, firstly, congratulations, but also good luck to team UK at WorldSkills final in Shanghai, but also look forward to welcoming the UK national finals of WorldSkills to Wales for the very first time both this year and next year. That's an opportunity for learners across Wales to take part in, and I look forward to seeing them do just that.

Diolch, Carolyn Thomas, for the question. The Welsh Government continues to promote and support culture and heritage projects in north-east Wales. This includes investment in high-profile programme for government commitments, such as Theatr Clwyd and the football museum for Wales.

Thank you for your response. Minister, I wrote to you recently about the Caergwrle bowl. It's a magnificent example of Bronze Age pottery that I and local campaigners want to bring back to north-east Wales, and we want future generations to be able to see it in north Wales and see it back where it belongs, actually, if that’s possible. Minister, your positive reply was incredibly welcome by me and the campaigners, and it gave real heart to them, so can you outline further what would need to happen so that that bowl can come home to north-east Wales? Thank you.

Can I thank Carolyn Thomas for the supplementary question and congratulate Carolyn on her role to return the Caergwrle bowl to north-east Wales? I was grateful to receive the letter from the Member, and I also think I should pay tribute, Presiding Officer, to the local councillors, Dave and Gladys Healey, for all their work to return the bowl as well. I think the campaign is a campaign that the whole Senedd could, indeed, support; I think I heard Members from opposition parties cheering in support of Carolyn’s campaign.

To her direct question, Amgueddfa Cymru does actively share its objects from its collection right across communities across Wales, but also internationally, and they have confirmed that they would welcome a loan request from, perhaps, Wrexham museum, or any other accredited museums in north Wales. So, my officials have reached out to the team at Wrexham to reiterate that potential to borrow items for display when it reopens in 2026—as I referred to in my opening question—following significant Welsh Government investment of over £6.4 million since 2020. Llywydd, I very much look forward to seeing the museum open its doors again and to taking my own son there, hopefully, to see the Caergwrle bowl to learn about his local history, but, very importantly for him, I’m sure, the history of Welsh football, when the football museum for Wales also opens later in this Senedd term.

Diolch, Adam Price, for the question. The Welsh Government has not been approached to discuss this project. As such, to date, no evaluation of its economic regeneration potential has been made.

Thank you, Minister. As we heard in your previous response, the Government has already invested over £6 million in the national football museum in Wrexham, and Cardiff is home to the Museum of Welsh Cricket, but Wales has no national rugby museum, and there is no sports museum in west Wales, although Caio in Carmarthenshire was the first place where rugby was played in Wales in 1866. Attractions of these sorts not only celebrate our history but also encourage participation in sports, which is an important aim, as we heard earlier. They create jobs, they attract tourists and generate spending with local businesses. So, would you be willing to consider supporting a bid, were it to be made by local stakeholders, the county council, town councils or the Scarlets, to commission a thorough business study to look at the economic potential and feasibility of a national rugby museum in west Wales?

Can I thank Adam Price for that, and for highlighting the other investment into sports museums across the country? I very much recognise the importance of the culture and the history of rugby to communities right across Wales. I was very pleased to see, just yesterday when I was doing a bit of research in response to this question, the work of Carmarthen Athletic Rugby Football Club and their hosting of an online museum, and the project that they undertook with local schoolchildren to showcase all of the memorabilia they have, not just in rugby but also in other sports as well. I think Pele's boots are even on the online museum, which is really, really great.

As I said, my officials have not been approached about this particular project, but if the Member wished to talk with stakeholders that he is aware of about this project, then I would be happy for my officials to have a further conversation around this particular project and be able to advise project leaders, particularly around it becoming an accredited museum. If they were to seek Welsh Government funding, Presiding Officer, then of course, we would expect an economic assessment to be undertaken to develop that business case. So, if the Member wants to write to me on the issue, I'd be happy to set that conversation up with my officials, so that they can provide advice to him.

I think the Member is absolutely right to point to Carmarthen as an area where rugby started. They have a proud history, don't they, in rugby, as do other parts of the country. I think Carmarthen Athletic, the club I referenced earlier, Presiding Officer, the father of a famous rugby player, Ken Owens, played for them, and then Ken, obviously, played for the other team in Carmarthen. So, he's absolutely right to point to the history that is there, and I look forward to having that discussion with him.

Just to say that Lampeter in Ceredigion can, I think, challenge Carmarthen as a town for being the initial location of playing rugby in Wales, although it may not challenge Caio, of course, which is the village that lays claim to that. We'll see how this progresses.

And finally, question 9, John Griffiths.

The Welsh Government continues to work closely with key partners including Cardiff capital region, Newport City Council and businesses on the infrastructure and skills needed to deliver economic growth and prosperity to all parts of south-east Wales, including Newport East.

Thank you for that, Cabinet Secretary. As you know, Newport has considerable economic strengths and great potential for economic growth. Existing clusters, such as the semiconductor industry and cyber security, I think, clearly demonstrate that. I know recently, Cabinet Secretary, you visited the Uskmouth site, which will have battery energy storage systems that will enable data centres and, I hope, much else to develop locally.

One aspect of that potential growth, I think, is artificial intelligence. I know that you will have met with Dimitri Batrouni, the leader of Newport City Council, who is rightly hugely ambitious for Newport in terms of economic growth and quality jobs. And I think that artificial intelligence could be an important part of that, given all the component parts are there in the area. I wonder, Cabinet Secretary, if you will commit to engaging with Newport City Council and other key partners to bring these plans to fruition and realise this great potential.

I'm really grateful for the question. Yes, I just want to provide John Griffiths with reassurance that I am having those discussions with colleagues in local government about how we maximise what is already a world-class cluster in terms of compound semiconductors. Of course, we're seeing increasing investment now in data centres, and we have the exciting proposition in relation to the largest battery storage site in the UK, potentially, being in the area. So, all of those things together, I think, provide a really, really strong case for an AI zone, if you like, in Wales, and I think that all of those things are coming together at the right time now for Newport.

There's huge support, I think, available through the industrial strategy that the UK Government is developing at the moment. Clearly, it's identified digital and tech as priority sectors. These are sectors, I think, where Newport and the surrounding region really has the opportunity to shine even more brightly than it already does.

And, of course, there are opportunities, I think, through the work that the First Minister's doing with the international investment summit, which I know will, again, have a really strong focus on digital and tech, and look to explore what we could be doing to bring those global leaders to Wales to see what already is happening here, which is world leading in and of itself. But there is huge potential, I think, for further growth in this area.

I thank the Cabinet Secretary.

Before we move on, it's my pleasure to welcome Pat Weir, Speaker of the Queensland Parliament, to our public gallery today.

It's a great pleasure to welcome Pat Weir, who is the Speaker of the Queensland Parliament, who's joining us here today. [Applause.] Welcome, Pat, and I've already had the opportunity to explain to you that this isn't our permanent usual home. We're in our away kit for the next six months.

Welcome to you.

Questions now to the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care. The first question is from Lee Waters.

Thank you. AI-powered note-taking is already in use in Wales, with Welsh Government exploring the use of ambient voice technologies and their scalability in health and social care settings. Guidance on responsible AI adoption, focusing on accuracy and legal compliance, is being developed. This work will inform the next steps for Wales.

Thank you, that's good to hear. Guidance has already been launched in England, as well as the results of an interim trial led by Great Ormond Street Hospital of the safe use of AI for note-taking, with very encouraging results. We know from speaking to clinicians, all of us, the pressure that admin presents to them, and some studies show around a third of their time being taken up through writing up notes. These trials are showing notes can be taken automatically and a draft given to clinicians to check for accuracy before uploading, so huge benefits to the clinicians, more time to spend with patients, as well as the ability to see more patients. So, what more can we do to learn from the practice in England, where they seem to be ahead of us in already publishing their guidance? There's no point in doing this twice, and I would really encourage the take-up of this, so that patients and clinicians can benefit.

Absolutely, and thank you so much for that follow-up question, Lee Waters. I also want to point out that in the external ministerial advisory group on performance and productivity in NHS Wales, which the Cabinet Secretary reported on last week, this came up specifically under the digital and data section—the ambient note-taking. So, this is something now that's very much on our agenda, and as you pointed out, there are the enhanced patient and clinician interactions, there are time savings, and then there's also the improved documentation quality. All of these are going to make a huge difference to people in Wales.

Welsh Government has completed a desktop exercise on the safe introduction of the ambient voice technologies and AI note-taking in the UK and wider, and this has resulted in a detailed understanding of the technical and care-setting factors that need to be considered for safe and responsible implementation. As I said, the review will be considered now by the AI commission that we have in Wales.

We have also identified clinicians and professionals in clinical and professional settings who are interested in widening the use of AI note-taking to increase efficiency and the quality of interactions, as you've mentioned. The next step is to outline how we can safely use the technology and meet the standards required, its wider benefits and managing any risks.

I also wanted to add that it is critical that we enshrine fair work and social partnership values in the adoption of AI within our workforce, and in December, the workforce partnership council issued guidance on a social partnership approach to implementing technology in the workplace. This emphasised the need for worker voice in the decision to adopt AI technologies and for clear ongoing oversight and monitoring and safeguarding of individuals' rights.

Just to confirm, I will always look to any research that's going on in this area across the whole of the UK. I think as we look to implementation now, we do it very much in that Welsh way, through a social partnership model, and we focus on that clinical safety, data protection, integration and, crucially, that staff training. Diolch.

Minister, Lee Waters is absolutely right: there's a huge opportunity, and you've acknowledged it, in the use of AI for some basic tasks as described here today. Part of my concern, though, is the infrastructure on which that is built, because if there's not a good digital infrastructure system in place in Wales, in the NHS in particular, then AI is not going to function properly on top of that. An example of that is I'm aware of optometrists in north Wales who physically, every Friday, have to write a physical letter, sign a physical letter, to be posted to GPs for referrals around optometry. So, the AI revolution is exciting and can be transformative, but we've still got optometrists writing letters to GPs. There's some very basic digital infrastructure that isn't in the right place at the moment.

We also are very aware of the different types of digital infrastructure used across different health boards, across and even within Wales, making communication difficult across the country. So, AI, absolutely, we need to be pushing ahead with that, but I wonder what confidence you have that some very basic stuff is being dealt with in the digital space, which then will allow the AI world to be built upon.

Thank you so much, Sam Rowlands. That's an excellent question. You're absolutely right, and in order to be able to scale up, we very much need that national architecture, that all-Wales architecture, along with the electronic health record and along with the national data resource, which we have the foundations of, and we will be absolutely now focusing on and turbo-charging the implementation of that across Wales.

I wanted to say that, tomorrow, I will be leading a digital summit where we will be bringing together all of the health boards across Wales. We will have presentations on the NHS app from two GPs; we will have the roll-out of the maternity app being presented to us; we will have the electronic mental health record being presented to us by Betsi Cadwaladr and Cwm Taf Morgannwg, which are the two health boards leading on that; we will also have Digital Health and Care Wales presenting on the roll-out of national architecture across Wales. So, we are really getting going on this now to do everything that you've asked.

And also, I will be relaunching, resetting, the digital and technology board, and that will then ensure that we have all of the main stakeholders around the table, including social care, including the NHS, to ensure now that we get that roll-out without that postcode lottery. Because the time is now to make the most of the fact that we are a country with a population where we should be able to join up everything, exactly as you said, between primary care, between secondary care, across health board borders. So, what I would say is, 'Watch this space.' We are making really good progress in this area, and I agree with everything that you're saying; that's exactly what we're going to do. Diolch.

The Welsh Government believes in the equality of all, including in relation to access to health services. We respect the decision of the Supreme Court. We will consider the judgment and interim guidance from the Equality and Human Rights Commission carefully, and will assess if we need to revise our guidance before taking steps to support NHS Wales to meet any obligations under the Equality Act 2010.

Diolch, Cabinet Secretary. The First Minister said we'd have to wait until the summer for updated guidance following the UK court's clear ruling, when there really should be some urgency to comply with the law, particularly in health, particularly in intimate healthcare settings. Given the vulnerability of women in healthcare settings and the increasing concern from clinicians and patients alike about the erosion of single-sex spaces, can the Cabinet Secretary tell us what urgent action the Welsh Government is taking to comply with the law to uphold the legal right to single-sex spaces in our NHS Wales, which has been affirmed by the Supreme Court, because anything less is a disservice to women in Wales? Diolch.

The current position prior to the Supreme Court ruling is that the responsibility for allocation of hospital accommodation, for example, is made at ward and unit level, taking into account patient privacy, dignity and sex. As the First Minister has made clear—and I reiterate today—the Government will wish to take time to carefully examine the impact of the ruling on our policies and priorities. We're also aware of the Equality and Human Rights Commission interim guidance and will examine this alongside the Supreme Court ruling.

In the meantime, my message to women is that the NHS will do everything it can to provide you with the care that you need in a way that reflects your dignity and safety, and my message to trans individuals is the same.

Questions now from the party spokespeople. Welsh Conservatives' spokesperson, James Evans.

Diolch, Llywydd. Cabinet Secretary, I want to raise the serious issue of survival rates for less survivable cancers in Wales. I attended and spoke at an event last week in the Senedd, organised by the cross-party group on cancer, and the reality is that Wales has not seen any meaningful improvements in the outcomes for these cancers in decades, and we continue to lag behind comparable countries with less survivable cancers. A recent analysis shows that, on average, a one-year survival rate for someone diagnosed with a less survivable cancer in Wales is just 39 per cent compared to over 70 per cent for all other cancers. These are quite stark figures, Cabinet Secretary, and we simply cannot afford, morally or financially, to keep neglecting these cancers, which include liver, lung, brain, oesophageal, pancreatic and stomach cancers. They take a heavy toll on our communities, particularly those in areas of high deprivation.

So, Cabinet Secretary, can you set out for me what your Government is doing to prioritise these six less survivable cancers and develop a co-ordinated strategy to improve survival rates across Wales for people suffering with less survivable cancers? 

The Member is right to emphasise the importance of ensuring that people who suffer with these cancers are entitled to the timely care that we wish to see. In fact, some of the tumour sites that he referred to in his statement are ones where our ability to meet the targets that we have set are at the very highest, often meeting 100 per cent of that target, which I'm very pleased with. He's right also to say that a number of the cancers that he refers to, perhaps specifically lung cancer, are highly correlated with social and economic deprivation. He will remember that I said in the Chamber a few weeks ago that I was anticipating advice during the course of the forthcoming months from Public Health Wales about how one might design a lung screening programme, for example, that would build on the developments that we've seen successfully in the Cwm Taf Morgannwg health board area, where the results of those pilots have been very effective. I've asked Public Health Wales to expedite the advice that they give me in relation to that, recognising, as the Member says, the urgency and importance of this matter. I envisage getting that advice in the forthcoming weeks so that I can then make a decision in relation to that programme.

That's really positive to hear, Cabinet Secretary, because I did want to focus my next question on lung cancer. It does disproportionately impact on our disadvantaged communities across Wales, and it does have the widest inequality gap of all common cancers, with people in deprived areas being more likely to get it and more likely to die from it, and that inequality is growing. What's more concerning is that, since 2022, as we've said before, England has had that nationally recognised targeted lung cancer screening programme for over 1 million people who've ever smoked. Over 1 million people have been screened there, with thousands of them detected with that early lung cancer, and actually getting them on those treatment pathways so more of them can survive. I know you said that advice is coming, Cabinet Secretary—I don't want to pre-empt you—but are you minded currently that this is a route that the Welsh Government want to go down? Because I think the results we've seen in England are very positive, and I think it's something I'd love to see us rolling out here. So if you can give some sort of positive indications of how you're going to look at this, it'd be quite welcome, I'm sure, for not just me to hear that, but also those charities that have been campaigning on this for a very long time.

I was able, some months ago, through the good offices of Buffy Williams, in whose constituency one of the pilot projects was being carried forward, to meet with the clinicians who were leading the pilot project, and Tenovus as well, in order to discuss the findings in the project and how this might be able to be rolled out more rapidly. As he says, there is already good progress in England; it is not yet fully rolled out across England—it's about 25 per cent, as I understand it. That gives us opportunities to learn from the experience and draw on their insights of that early roll-out that they have been undertaking. I think it is important to wait for the full advice, because it will have funding and other implications beyond that, but I am minded, if we can, to be able to make progress rapidly in relation to this kind of screening programme.

I was really very struck by the statistics that the clinician was able to share with us, which suggested that the results of the pilot in the Rhondda had shown an ability to increase the survival rate for lung cancer specifically very dramatically as a consequence of the initial trial. I think that requires us to focus our energies in relation to that. So, I am looking forward to getting the advice, and I will be looking forward to welcoming the advice when I get it.

Finally, Cabinet Secretary, another area that I would like to touch on is bowel cancer. What we are seeing in the evidence is a lot more younger people now presenting with bowel cancer and being diagnosed with it. I think that is very concerning for all of us in this Chamber—that more younger people are being diagnosed with this horrific type of cancer. I recently visited Cancer Research Wales, and they're doing some leading work in early detection of bowel cancer through looking at genes and different types of proteins that people can get through blood tests. I think that is a really positive step. It is less invasive than some of the other ways that we detect bowel cancer. So, I am just interested to hear from you, Cabinet Secretary, what the Welsh Government is doing to prioritise work and research in this area. What more can we do to increase screening of younger people who do show with sometimes vague symptoms of bowel cancer? Because if we are seeing those younger people dying and being diagnosed with this disease, we need to get on top of it as quickly as possible, to make sure we give those people the opportunity to live that fuller life and get over cancer and survive cancer. Diolch, Llywydd.

The Member is right to say that bowel cancer is an area where early detection is again able to very significantly change the trajectory of the disease and increase, often substantially, the likelihood of survival. I recently found myself having moved into the cohort of people entitled to screening by virtue of a significant birthday—not so recently, actually. The screening programme is actually very effective and it's very straightforward, and the take-up is good, but we would obviously want to encourage more people to take up the screening that is available. People will be written to when they are eligible for that. 

The Member makes the argument that we should consider extending the age range, I think. Those judgments are always clinically led. They are informed by the effectiveness of the current programme and, as he was implying, the availability of other opportunities and other mechanisms for detecting cancer as well. I would just reassure him that the Government does support a number of research initiatives in relation to cancers of all types. That's an important commitment for us as a Government and we remain committed to it.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Mabon ap Gwynfor.

Thank you very much, Llywydd. Maintaining the NHS as a public organisation used to be an article of faith for the Labour Party, but since the introduction of PFI during the Blair years, and now with Wes Streeting making noises about the role of the private sector in the health system, this faith has been shaken recently.

To be fair to the Labour Party in Wales, the move in this direction has been withstood more firmly here, generally speaking, but the publication of the independent report on NHS performance that recommended expanding the role of the private sector has thrown some doubt on this. The Government responded accepting the recommendation in part, but without giving much detail as to which elements they agreed with.

So, can the Cabinet Secretary confirm today—yes or no—if the Government intends to create a specific national fund within the health budget for use of the private sector, and whether—again, yes or no—you intend to carry out an assessment of long-term options on opening the private system up further to independent providers? 

The Welsh Labour Government's commitment to the public health service in Wales is total. The response to the report is clear in what it says, namely that it accepts in some cases—where it isn't possible in an acceptable time frame for all of us to get the system back into a balance—that we've always used some element of the independent sector and the private sector. So, it acknowledges that in the report. That isn't a change.

What we've already said is that we want to take national control of elements of what already happens in the system so that we can have certainty that value for money comes from that and that we can have a strategic overview to ensure that very principle: that we don't normally act in this way, but in a way that supports in a temporary manner where there is specific need.

Thank you. The further question is whether you're going to create that ring-fenced funding as a permanent thing for the private sector. I haven't had a clear response on that.

The reality is that, despite the commitment to a free-at-the-point-of-service public system, mismanagement of waiting lists has led to a situation where more and more of the population have to pay for treatment, be it in areas such as ophthalmology, dentistry, or GP surgeries, and at a scale that has increased significantly recently. During the third quarter of last year, there were around 7,700 private in-patients or day patients—the third highest on record—and contrary to the rest of the UK, a personal payment is the most common use of this service.

The right wing's aim is to root this de facto situation as something permanent and to move towards an insurance model similar to the United States, with the frightening implications of that. So, from a political and practical perspective, we're appearing to get closer to an important tipping point in terms of the fundamental status of the health service. How will you, therefore, ensure that we don't see this privatisation continuing, and do you acknowledge that the Government's failure to manage waiting lists and to employ more specialists is going to encourage the right wing and strengthen the right wing in their arguments?

The response to the first question is no, it's not the intention to create a long-term fund. As I said clearly in my first response, the Government sees this as a temporary necessity to deal with a specific objective. I hope that was clear from the first response.

I believe that it's important that we don't provide space for the argument that the public national health service is under threat. What is important is that we ensure the principle that people can receive provision through the public sector, and don't have to pay for that provision. That is fundamental, I believe, to that principle of a public service, and specifically to the tradition and the vision for the future that we have as a Government for the health service.

It is important that we ensure—and this is true of all national health services—that we improve the performance and the ability and capacity of the health service to provide that timely care that is so important to people, so that people don't have to feel under pressure to seek alternative options.

The thrust of the report that you mentioned in your initial question goes in that direction—how can we be practical in terms of supporting the health service so that that commitment, all of that work, the people who come into the health service in their thousands daily to work on other people's behalf, has the greatest possible impact.

Thank you. Finally, if I could go on a slightly different track and ask about the report that's just been published on the University Hospital of Wales in Cardiff. The report mentioned criminal behaviour at the hospital, that some staff were belittled, that there was poor disease control, and many more problems. It's a damning and very serious report that demonstrates how the health and well-being of patients has been compromised at times at the hospital. Why does the Cabinet Secretary believe this was allowed to happen? Can we have a full statement in the Senedd soon so that we can scrutinise this issue and ensure that lessons are learned?

'Damning and very serious' were the words used by the Member, and I would use those myself. It's shocking to read the results of the report, and the findings extend from questions of leadership, culture, even questions in terms of logistics on occasion. So, I intend to meet very soon with the chair of the health board to see what specific steps they will put in place. I know that they're taking the report seriously. I also know that steps are already being taken specifically where the findings touch on elements of patient safety and so on. I will want to see that there is a deliberate plan in place to deal with the range of the 66 recommendations contained in the report. I'll be happy to report back to the Senedd in due course.

Question 3 [OQ62635] is withdrawn. 

We are committed to improving the quality and safety of our mental health services. We have invested over £2 million in the strategic mental health programme in the NHS executive. This includes a mental health patient safety programme, with a focus on improving the quality of in-patient care.

Thank you for that response.

Mind Cymru's report, 'Raising the Standard', identified a number of areas where experiences of mental health in-patient care could be improved, and it's absolutely great that we've got the new mental health strategy and commitment to an in-patient safety programme to drive home improvement. I think that's absolutely great. But I'm sure the Minister would agree that we do want the least restrictive environments possible within these settings.

I think it was particularly concerning in Mind's report that it highlighted the gaps in collection of data in relation to the use of restrictive practices within these settings, particularly with regard to protected characteristics and the lack of a statutory basis for the guidance in Wales.

With this in mind, would the Minister look into the extension of the Mental Health Units (Use of Force) Act 2018 to Wales, potentially through the Mental Health Bill currently going through the UK Parliament, in order to enhance the rights of people within mental health in-patient units, increase transparency, and allow for the creation of statutory guidance?

Thank you so much, Julie Morgan, for that follow-up question. I really appreciated Mind Cymru doing such an important and thorough report in 'Raising the Standard'. Going through the data, they are able to really highlight where we can absolutely improve.

As you said, in the mental health and well-being strategy that was launched last week, we do have vision statement 4, which is very much about specialist care, including in-patient care. We are taking the commitment to patient safety very, very seriously. As we know, when people have to go into an in-patient space, it’s about having that safe and structured care, primarily, and it is absolutely about the least restrictive necessary. So, our guidance and the code of practice for the Mental Health Act 1983 in Wales is clear—that the use of restraint should be the very last resort, and we continue to raise awareness of the reducing restrictive practices guidance in Wales, and there is a webinar in July to launch even more resources to support the implementation of that. And, in Wales, we already have a suite of regulations and frameworks that have a similar policy intention to the mental health use of force Act, and this includes the NHS's 'Putting Things Right', the reporting of serious or untoward incidents, and the regulatory frameworks of Health Inspectorate Wales and Care Inspectorate Wales.

We’ve also invested in the mental health patient safety programme, which has a focus on improving the quality, the safety and the outcomes from in-patient care, and this includes strengthening the data, as you’ve pointed out. And this is very much a key priority within the recently published mental health and well-being strategy, very much because Mind Cymru do meet with me regularly and have been a huge part of the co-production of the strategy. So, many of the things that they’ve pointed out in their 'Raising the Standard' report have come through now in the strategy.

I also want to say that, in Wales, we also have regulations and frameworks that have, like I said, a similar policy intention. At the moment, my focus is on ensuring that the services are meeting expectations in our current regulatory and policy framework to improve that patient care. And this is a key focus of the strategy, but I will certainly have a look into what you’ve raised. I know that this is something that people are keen on in terms of the statutory obligation, but I would say, at the moment, for the very near future, we’re ensuring that we have rolled out everything that we can, and should have, under what we’re currently doing.

Minister, one of the things that was promised to the people of north Wales to improve in-patient care in mental health units was a brand-new mental health unit to replace the Ablett unit, which was closed in the wake of the Tawel Fan scandal. A promise was made seven years ago now to rebuild a new facility. We still haven’t seen that facility open or, indeed, building work actually commence on site. Can you tell us, is this another broken promise by the Labour Party that’s never going to be realised, letting down the people of north Wales yet again, and adding further insult to the injury already caused by those people who faced institutional abuse on the Tawel Fan ward? Or will you finally rectify the situation and make sure that the Welsh Government delivers on this promise as soon as possible?

Thank you very much for that question and for raising the Ablett in north Wales. It was one of the very first visits that I did when I came into the role. I wanted to go there and meet people and speak with the staff who were there, and see what it was like to really work there and be there. So, I’m absolutely aware that this is a real priority. I would say that the reason for the more recent delay anyway, which is what I’m aware of, is that we have had a huge rise in inflation. So, the business case that came through very quickly and rapidly shot up in the amount that was needed to be able to do this. And, as you know, this is capital funding. So, I will say that I think that the health board, Betsi Cadwaladr, have done tremendous work in having to go back, really, and figure out a way of being able to deliver this in the current economic place that we are in at the moment.

I would also say as well—and this is not me politically point scoring here—that we have had a real underfunding of capital to Wales for a long time now, and, all of a sudden, we do have a lot more capital. And I will say that, personally, as the Minister for Mental Health and Well-being, I’m really pleased about this, because I would like us to look at the mental health estates across all of Wales. I’m very, very aware that to receive the best kind of care, and for people working in those environments, having the best facilities is really, really important, and that is a priority for me. But it does require that, and, at the moment, like I said, inflation has had a real impact on it. So, it’s absolutely not a broken promise. I and the Cabinet Secretary are very much focused on this. We realise how serious it is, and we will be moving forward with it. Diolch.

We do not endorse routine care or treatment of individuals in non-clinical or unsuitable environments. There are, however, times when the NHS faces exceptional pressure, during which local escalation measures are enacted. Aneurin Bevan University Health Board has robust plans, supported by funding from the Welsh Government, to improve patient flow and mitigate the risk of care in such environments.

Thank you very much for that response. 

Last week, I met with representatives from RCN Wales and BMA Cymru to hear about the problem of corridor care in our hospitals. No patient should be waiting for days in chairs, but when you hear that the elderly and frail patients are being forced to do this, then it's heartbreaking and completely unacceptable. Helen Whyley, the executive director of RCN Wales, said 

'We are beyond breaking point'. 

Stephen Kelly, chair of the BMA’s Welsh consultants committee, spoke of his concern that corridor care is being normalised. Both bodies have now set up a petition to get something done about corridor care after trying various measures in the past to apply pressure on the Government. Cabinet Secretary, do you acknowledge the concerns of thousands of doctors and nurses in our NHS regarding corridor care? And secondly, when will we see a return on the millions of pounds that you are ploughing into tackling this situation but with seemingly no end in sight? 

Well, I do recognise those concerns and I have them myself. When you go to visit emergency departments and particularly see patients in chairs or on trolleys in the corridor, it's very distressing for patients. It's also very distressing for staff, which is I think why the petition is phrased in the way that it is. So, there is no question about that, which is why we do not support that as a routine, obviously, way of providing care.

The Member talks about the investment in the system. What we have been investing in is making sure that, as well as addressing the sometimes capital, sometimes additional revenue needs of emergency departments themselves, we can improve the flow through hospitals, which is really, fundamentally, the reason why this is happening—there was insufficient capacity elsewhere in the hospital for the patient to be able to be moved on to the appropriate place for them to have care. So, in particular in the context of the Aneurin Bevan University Health Board, I know they have been recruiting. They've successfully recruited, actually, six new emergency consultants very recently, which I think is going to make a big difference, because they're able to make senior level clinical judgments more rapidly. They've also created a dedicated fracture liaison service and expanded the same-day emergency service—all ways of making sure that people can be seen and treated without being admitted into the hospital, which is the priority that we want to be able to meet. 

There have been some improvements in the pressures on the emergency department in some of the hospitals in Aneurin Bevan. Now, obviously, the challenge that the Member describes is still too often a reality, and we are committed, through the funding that we have and the work that we're doing with health boards, with councils as well, to making sure that we can improve flow in hospitals, have patients discharged safely, quickly, and create that additional capacity for people to be able to go to the place in the hospital where they can get the best care. We are, actually, seeing positive trends in terms of being able to free up that capacity, discharge people safely. The picture this year is significantly better than the picture last year. So, we want health boards and councils to redouble their efforts, working together, to focus in on those things that we know—we have strong evidence—make the biggest difference and that we can already see as starting to have a positive effect.

Cabinet Secretary, corridor care is truly undignified, dehumanising and completely unacceptable in 2026—2025, as well as 2026. As a next of kin to somebody who has experienced corridor care myself, I'm sure many of us in this Chamber have received e-mails from concerned loved ones who've seen their loved ones go through corridor care, and it's something the Labour Government needs to get to grips with and quickly. The Royal College of Nursing and the British Medical Association have launched a petition to end corridor care, which I would encourage not only my constituents, but Members in this Chamber to sign as well.

There are a number of factors contributing to corridor care, but the one I want to focus on with you today is easing pressure on A&E with prevention and early intervention. I've had many constituents contact me since I have been doing this job about how they've been forced to visit an A&E or minor injury unit department because they simply have not been able to get a GP appointment. One constituent's young daughter unnecessarily ended up in A&E, partly due to the GP practice in Newport not being able to conduct blood tests for under 10-year-old children. She was then referred to Ystrad Fawr for full bloods, but they didn't have an appointment for another four weeks, so her parents took the decision to go to A&E. This won't be the only case out there, and all of this is undoubtedly putting unnecessary strain on our hospitals. So, what steps is the Welsh Government taking to alleviate pressure on A&E departments by prioritising prevention and, ultimately, early intervention? Thank you.

Well, I think some of the points that I made in my answer to Peredur Owen Griffiths, I hope, will have cast some light on that. I mentioned the expansion of same-day emergency care provision in the Aneurin Bevan University Health Board area, which I know will be particularly relevant to the Member, and which saw 1,400 patients last month, and 80 per cent of those were able to be treated and discharged on the same day. So, we want to be able to see more of that. The fracture liaison service is another example of how people can be treated in a very bespoke way so that they don't have to wait those sometimes long waits in emergency departments.

The broader point that she makes about ensuring that services are available in the community is an important point. She will know that we have ambitions to increase the presence of diagnostics in particular—she touched on that in her question—in primary care settings, and are working with the BMA at the moment on how we can develop a model on a cluster level for more diagnostics to be available in the community, which sounds like it would have made a difference to the constituent that she spoke about there.

In addition to that, I was pleased that we were able to support GP practices with a stabilisation payment this year to take some of the pressure that they feel away, but I'm under no illusions that that is a long-term set of pressures. One of the challenges that we often see causing people to come to A&E when otherwise they would have been very content to see their GP, is that question of continuity of care, seeing the same medical practitioner. And so, we are working—. We launched in April this year a new quality improvement approach, working with GP practices so that they can target that often quite small cohort of people with a range of chronic conditions or particularly challenging requirements so that they can have continuity of care. I would like, over time, for that to become an expectation for everybody, as it was in the past. That, I'm afraid, will take some time, but I think, by focusing on those with a particular need, we can meet their needs better and alleviate some of the pressures on the system.

The Government's response to the ministerial advisory group on NHS Wales performance and productivity sets out how I intend to progress all 29 of the group's recommendations in collaboration with health boards right across Wales.

I thank you for that response, Cabinet Secretary. There's no doubt that the report made for some incredibly difficult reading, and I'm sure you felt the same, but it had very few surprises for most of us. In fact, the only real surprise was the fact that it had taken the Labour Government so long to realise our NHS was in trouble, leading to this external report to tell them what most of us already knew, and what they should have known. One concern noted in the report highlights the fact that much of the additional money being made available for our health service is going on pay rises and unavoidable inflationary pressures. Now, this is understandable, but it means that very little of the money is getting to the front line to address patient outcomes. I'm sure your inbox, like mine, is full of patients highlighting issues that they have experienced with our NHS. Now, the Welsh Government, as you have just said, have agreed to the report's 29 recommendations. So, with this in mind, Cabinet Secretary, will there be a clear timeline for improvement with measurable targets and outcomes? That's the important thing because, often, we don't see those here. And when can patients see tangible benefits as a result?

The Member makes a point about where funding goes in the NHS. He and his colleagues often challenge me on recruitment into the NHS and what that means for services. So, the funding that we make available to meet the pay bill in the NHS is there to make sure that people are properly remunerated and that we can continue to recruit people. That will have a direct effect on services if we don't do that. But I take the broader point that the Member makes about funding for the system to be able to transform how services are delivered, make sure they're delivered in the most efficient and effective ways, and that does require some element of further investment. He, I know, will welcome the progress we've been making over recent months with some additional funding as a consequence of electing a Labour Government in Westminster, and a weekly focus on performance in the NHS, which has seen the longest waits come down for the third month in a row, and I'm very optimistic about the fourth month as well. So, patients are already seeing the benefit of a focus on performance.

Some of the points that are in the recommendations in the report take us to the next level, help us take the next step, and I have set the task for the NHS, the target for the NHS, of reducing the number of out-patient waits by about 200,000 over the course of the next year. That will make a significant difference to your constituents, as it will to mine, and also getting to target, which is that nobody should be waiting two years in the NHS in Wales, and I am confident that we have plans in place that can deliver that.

Ensuring good access to high-quality primary care services across Wales is a priority for the Government. We support the delivery of primary care through investment in and reform of the contracts that health boards use to commission these services.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. I have one of the largest GP practices in my constituency in all of Wales, Argyle Street, and despite the hard work and efforts of staff and those on the phone lines, there continues to be this rat-run scramble at 8.00 a.m. for people phoning in looking for appointments, begging for appointments, and being told to call back tomorrow because they're already full within only a few minutes of those phone lines being open. Now, you will be aware that then that puts subsequent pressure on accident and emergency departments at Withybush Hospital in my neighbouring constituency, in Paul Davies's constituency, meaning that the whole health system, then, is creaking. So, what are you doing to ensure that surgeries like Argyle Street are being given the support required to ensure that people aren't scrambling at 8.00 a.m. for an appointment when they need one, and that people can get an appointment in a timely fashion?

We're doing many things. So, firstly, we introduced the access standards to the GP contract, I think two years ago, which requires GP practices to offer access through a different range of routes, including a phone contact, but also online and in other ways as well. So, those standards were backed up by money, which will have been funding staffing in GP practices to enable that target to be met, which, to be clear, must be met. Ninety-seven per cent of practices in Wales have been telling us that they are hitting the standard. What we also know is that that is a self-defined assessment, and in this year's contract negotiations, we've undertaken a review of those access standards and are requiring health boards to measure the compliance against that.

So, that's what we're doing in terms of the expectation on the system, but we also need to make sure that there are alternative routes for people to be able to access primary care more broadly. You will know about the work we're doing with independent prescribers in pharmacy and other routes to primary care, but for GP access specifically, I think two of the most exciting developments that we will see this year is the launch of the NHS app, which my colleague Sarah Murphy has already spoken about, which will support those of us who are happy to use a digital route to be able to book appointments, and that will free up capacity for those who don't particularly want to use that route. And secondly, the point I just made to your colleague, Natasha Asghar, that continuity of care for the patients who need the most support will change over time that level of pressure in the system. So, there's activity under way to improve access from a patient point of view, but also to provide alternative routes for those appointments to be booked.

The joint commissioning committee and Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board have been working with NHS England on the development of the new unit. This has included regular meetings with people with lived experience to ensure the service meets patient needs.

According to the Cheshire and Wirral Partnership NHS Foundation Trust website, Seren Lodge will become a specialist eight-bed mental health unit to support perinatal mothers, babies and their families across Cheshire, Merseyside and north Wales. They have been recruiting staff recently for this new unit, and it's the Cheshire and Wirral Partnership NHS Foundation Trust that was undertaking that recruitment process. Perhaps we can have an update from you in terms of where we are with staffing for that unit. But I have to say that I'm not filled with confidence that consideration has been given to the need for Welsh-speaking skills in recruiting staff for this unit. Could you give an assurance that the needs of Welsh-speaking mothers and children will be appropriately addressed at Seren Lodge?

Thank you so much, Siân Gwenllian, for that follow-up question. As you know, based on the conversations that you and I had around Seren Lodge and the JCC commissioning of the beds there, I did ask them to undertake a capacity and demand review to provide further assurance on the estimated need for the beds. And I just want to say today that the JCC have published now that report, and one of the things that really come through in it is that there is somebody who has given testimony who has lived experience who said that they have bipolar, and when they need help they speak through the medium of Welsh, their first language, and so it means a lot to them to be able to receive that. And so it's not just a nice to have or even equality—this is actually very much clear in the report that this is a clinical need. So, I want to reassure you that this has been very, very thorough, and it's taken a little bit longer because of that. It's turned into an all-Wales assessment about mother-and-baby-unit need. But I wanted to ensure that I put that on record today that I'm very aware that that's come through in the report.

So, Seren Lodge will have the capacity for eight mothers and will provide specialised treatment for women facing significant mental health challenges during pregnancy, or for those with a baby under 12 months old, and the NHS plans to commission two of these eight beds, although commissioners from NHS Wales and NHS England both agree to be flexible and prioritise the needs of the mother.

The unit features eight individual bedrooms for mothers and their babies, along with access to an activity space. And, additionally, accommodation will be available for family members travelling from afar to visit their loved ones.

As the unit is located in England, but will cater to mothers from Wales, arrangements have been made to ensure that Welsh patients feel as connected as possible, and these arrangements include interior bilingual signage, care plans and information leaflets translated into Welsh, and efforts are also in place to recruit the Welsh-speaking staff that you spoke of. I don't have an update for you today; I was hoping that I would. The last that I was told was that they had had nurses who speak Welsh apply for the role, but I have not been given an update yet on the recruitment process, although, like you, I am very keen to see that. And also to say that NHS Wales and NHS England commissioners have also ensured that the expert by experience group remains actively engaged, and includes representatives from north Wales. So, I hope I've given as much of an update as I can today, and I will always keep the Member updated on progress as we go forward. Diolch.

Finally, question 9, Andrew R.T. Davies.

I've previously discussed what were then allegations surrounding some of the practices at the operating theatres at the hospital with the chair of the health board. The health board is taking the allegations seriously and, as the Member has referred to, has recently completed and published a service review. I've received the report and I'll be meeting with the chair to discuss the action that the health board will need to take in response to those findings.

Thank you, Minister, for that reply. Drugs, sabotage, stealing and racism, outright criminal behaviour, pigeons found in theatres—that is directly quoted from the report that was published this morning by the health board. That is not the report that I have been asking you about, which is about members of the public being in the operating theatres. This is a directorate within the health board that clearly has been totally unaccountable and has put those headlines before the residents of Cardiff and Vale. Where have the senior executives been in holding people to account and making sure that the environment of the operating theatres at Wales's largest hospital are safe, dignified and, above all, performing the task that they are charged with?

This 22-page report is damning to say the least. Is it the canary in the coal mine that is indicating greater risk within the wider hospital estate in the Cardiff and Vale area? And I ask that as a regional Member and also a user of health services. And I put to you, Minister, that, clearly, the senior team at Cardiff and Vale have allowed this to happen, and clearly are not in control of the situation. Direct ministerial intervention is required to put confidence back in people, whether they work at the hospital or they use the hospital. Those headlines are damning to say the least. I call on you to make an urgent intervention and actually step in and address these failures within the health board, because, clearly, the current management team and the board of directors are unable to do it.

As I said in my response to Mabon ap Gwynfor earlier, I found reading the report shocking, for a number of the reasons that the Member has pointed out in his question. I was particularly concerned to read about the nationally reported incidents occurring in the theatre, which I have already raised with the chair of the health board, and also that people didn't feel they were able to speak up, and that's absolutely essential in order to have a culture that is self-improving, if you like, which is able to improve continuously.

In my discussions so far with the health board, prior to the publication of the report, they have told me that there is a plan being developed to respond to it. I understand that nearly a third of theatre staff contributed to the review, and as I say, it's obviously concerning they felt that they could not report these concerns through the normal mechanisms. We have to make sure we have, in all parts of the NHS, confidence that people can speak openly through those mechanisms so that things can be raised and addressed. I think it will have been very challenging and very distressing for members of staff, and I expect the health board to put support in place to address those, and the elements of the report, of which there are many, that touch on the patient experience as well. As I mentioned earlier, I will be meeting with the chair of the health board, and I will expect to hear what concrete plans the health board has in place to address the 66 recommendations in the report.

I thank the Cabinet Secretary.

There are no topical questions this afternoon.

So, we'll move to item 4, the 90-second statements, and the first of which is from Lesley Griffiths.

Diolch, Llywydd. Back to back to back—five words I never thought I would utter in any context, and certainly not in relation to three successive promotions for my beloved Wrexham Association Football Club: champions of the National League in 2022-23, promotion from league two in 2023-24, and, incredibly, promotion from league one in 2024-25. Wrexham are the first football club in the English Football League to achieve this incredible feat.

The first Wrexham match I attended was at the Racecourse on 22 January 1972. Over 50 years and many, many matches later, I can honestly say I never have experienced an atmosphere like the one last week when Wrexham beat Charlton Athletic 3-0 to win promotion to the EFL championship.

Everyone associated with Wrexham AFC deserves immense praise—players, staff, coaches, owners and the fans—but I do want to particularly single out our manager, Phil Parkinson. Known to many via the Welcome to Wrexham documentary for his strident and often colourful team talks, Phil has built a team that has delivered so much on the field, while the club is doing inspirational work in the community. I also want to recognise the considerable contribution of our owners Rob McElhenney and Ryan Reynolds. Their efforts and positive impact stretch way beyond the financial, and continue to benefit not only the club, but the city itself and the surrounding area. After 15 years in the National League, where Wrexham, the third-oldest professional club in the world, was frequently fighting for survival, every fan of our great club will savour these incredible last three seasons. I still can't quite believe what's been achieved so far, and what further success might be possible. I'd love to think that however unlikely it may seem, this time next year we could be celebrating back to back to back to back promotions. Diolch.

Well done Wrexham. Siân Gwenllian.

Thank you very much. This year, the city of Bangor will be celebrating its one thousand five hundredth anniversary, a very special milestone for a resilient, unique and colourful community. But perhaps their football team isn't quite in the same place as Wrexham at the moment.

Bangor's roots date back to the sixth century, when St Deiniol established a monastery there, which later became Bangor cathedral. The monastery was one of the earliest Christian sites in Wales, and since then, the city has played a central role in our nation's history.

Bangor grew significantly due to the slate industry, with Penrhyn quarry nearby amongst the largest in the world. And Bangor became a key centre for education and culture, and Bangor University was established in 1884. Today, Bangor continues to be an important cultural and academic hub.

But as well as celebrating the city's rich history, this anniversary is also an opportunity to celebrate the Bangor of today. Like every other city, it has its challenges, but this is a community that refuses to give up, and it's a community that's full of good people who give of their time to see Bangor flourishing. From Maestryfan community group to Maesgeirchen Partnership, to the Friends of Pier y Garth, everyone is working hard on behalf of this wonderful city. And there is a very vibrant and exciting future ahead for Bangor. Happy birthday. 

Saturday 3 May marked World Press Freedom Day, a powerful reminder of why defending a free and independent press is more urgent than ever. This year's commemoration comes at a time of growing danger for journalists. According to the Committee to Protect Journalists, at least 124 journalists and media workers were killed in 2024 alone, the highest number in 30 years. From Sudan to Myanmar, Belarus to Gaza, journalists face growing harassment, imprisonment and silencing. The once protective symbolism of a blue press vest is now seen by many reporters as a target.

Here in Wales, we have our own stories that remind us of the courage and cost of speaking truth to power. We honour the bravery of journalists like James Miller, the Welsh filmmaker killed by Israeli forces while documenting the lives of children in Gaza in 2004. We remember Gareth Parry, who passed last year, a war correspondent who faced deliberate obstruction by the Ministry of Defence during the Falklands War. And we celebrate Jon Mitchell, whose award-winning investigative journalism has shed light on toxic dumping by the US military in Okinawa.

As we reflect on the sacrifices made by journalists worldwide, we must recommit to defending journalism as a public good. Press freedom is the cornerstone of democratic societies, the safeguard of human rights and the voice of the voiceless. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Next, a motion to elect a Member to a committee. I call on a member of the Business Committee to move the motion formally.

Formally. 

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed.

We'll move now to item 5, a debate on the Local Government and Housing Committee report, a follow-up inquiry into the provision of sites for Gypsy, Roma and Travellers. I call on the Chair of the committee to move the motion, John Griffiths.

Diolch, Llywydd, and I'm very pleased to open today's debate on the Local Government and Housing Committee's report on our follow-up inquiry into the provision of sites for Gypsy, Roma and Travellers. I would like to start by thanking all those who contributed to our inquiry, particularly those from the Gypsy and Traveller communities who shared their personal experiences with us.

Llywydd, in August 2022, we published a report on the provision of sites for Gypsy, Roma and Travellers. We made 21 recommendations, all of which were accepted by the Welsh Government. However, in June 2023, we heard from Travelling Ahead, an advocacy service, who wrote to us questioning the Welsh Government's progress in implementing those recommendations. They said:

'To our knowledge, not one of the recommendations in your committee's report has yet been actioned'.

We therefore decided to undertake a short follow-up inquiry to gather the views of stakeholders and members of the community.

Our follow-up report makes 10 recommendations. Nine of those have been accepted by the Welsh Government and one accepted in principle. However, as I've just mentioned, all of our previous recommendations were accepted, but, despite this, it was clear from our more recent work that very limited progress has been made in meeting the accommodation needs of Gypsies and Travellers. This was particularly evident from our focus group with members of the community. There was consensus that they had seen little or no progress. We are deeply disappointed as a committee that this is the case and want to see this rectified as a matter of urgency. The Welsh Government has a responsibility to tackle such inequality, experienced by one of our most disadvantaged groups in society. I welcome the Cabinet Secretary's response to our follow-up report, but we do need to see—badly need to see—practical action on the ground. That is what really counts.

The lack of transitory provision in Wales was a common theme in our original and follow-up work. The Cabinet Secretary told us during oral evidence that there are seven transit pitches available in Wales. However, the latest data shows only two pitches. The Welsh Government’s response says that the latest Gypsy and Traveller accommodation assessments identified four, but the response notes that two of these were not identified in the caravan count because they are not openly available and known about by community members who travel nomadically.

This is concerning, given that there is much need for transitory provision. We heard that there are still Gypsies and Travellers who want to continue the travelling tradition but that this is a lot more difficult and stressful now due to constantly being asked to move on, the lack of waste disposal and toilet facilities, and often backlash from the wider community. The work to increase transitory provision needs to progress at pace and in consultation with the Gypsy and Traveller community.

The condition of local authority sites emerged as the main theme in our focus group work. Contributors shared examples of disrepair on sites and issues with pollution and rat infestations and outlined the impact this has on the physical and mental well-being of those living on these sites, with one contributor saying that it destroys people’s lives. We were extremely disappointed to hear about sites in such states of disrepair. People deserve much better, and local authorities need to prioritise maintenance. We welcome the Cabinet Secretary’s response that she has put in place a monitoring programme and that there is funding available for site improvements. I certainly hope that these funds will be utilised.

I also note that the response says that officials are exploring how the sites capital grant could be used to support the development of private sites. During our inquiry we heard that members of the community would like to be owning, running and managing their own sites. 'We need to be in charge of our own lives' was the message. Other contributors agreed that their living situation would be far better if they were able to own and manage their own sites. We were disappointed to hear during our inquiry that the pilot programme to provide advice to those seeking to develop private sites had not progressed. We are therefore pleased that the pilot began last month, although of course this is a number of years behind schedule.

Dirprwy Lywydd, it often seems that the needs of Gypsies and Travellers are not prioritised. Things are not progressed with any sense of urgency. We were deeply concerned to hear from community members that they felt hatred towards them sometimes from wider communities, but also from local authority officers. We heard that there is often a feeling that there is no interest in Gypsies and that there’s been no improvement in the way local authorities engage, with council officers often failing to attend meetings, for example. Some described being treated as outcasts and second-class citizens. Nobody should be made to feel this way. We urgently need to see an improvement in the way local authorities engage with these communities in the hope that this will also improve the wider community’s understanding of the needs and way of life of Gypsies and Travellers.

We note the refreshed 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan' and the revised actions relating to Gypsies and Travellers, and I very much hope that they will make a real difference. We desperately need to see progress, both in terms of site development and maintenance, and also in terms of engagement from local authorities—progress that has been much needed for far too long. We all have a duty, especially Welsh Government and local authorities, to protect the most disadvantaged in our society and tackle inequalities. 

In closing my opening speech, Dirprwy Lywydd, may I once again thank everyone who has played a part in this report, which I think is badly needed? And I look forward to Members’ contributions to this debate. Diolch yn fawr.

I'd like to also start by, of course, thanking our great Chair, the clerk and committee team and all the MSs that were present when compiling this report and taking evidence for this report; sadly, I wasn't one of them. But also sadly, there has been very little progress, as already the Chair has pointed out, from the Welsh Government in addressing the complex and often sensitive issues around Traveller accommodation in Wales. There are many families in the Traveller community in need of suitable accommodation, but there are also long-standing concerns from local residents about where sites are placed, and how those decisions are made. And as indicated in the follow-up report, the Gypsy and Traveller accommodation assessments are supposed to guide planning, yet they are infrequent and often outdated. This undermines the reliability of accommodation available and makes it difficult to plan responsibly.

Recommendations 2 and 3 focus on site provision, but progress has been slow, and, in the meantime, sites have been placed in locations that raise legitimate concerns; some are too close to busy roads, some without proper infrastructure, or in inappropriate places for them and/or the residents. There must be greater care in identifying appropriate locations, not just to meet the need, but to avoid fuelling community tensions. The process must be transparent and fair and communities must feel that their views are genuinely taken into account. There's also a lack of transit sites—only two across the whole of Wales—which contributes to intercommunal tensions, with unauthorised encampments putting pressure on local services and public spaces. But, again, these issues require balanced solutions, not top-down decisions that ignore local context and feeling. Engagement with the Traveller community is inconsistent, but so too is engagement with the settled communities affected by these decisions.

Recommendations 5 and 7 show the capital grant system is unclear and underused and we see this from the shockingly low number of applications in the past few years.

To conclude: it's important that those from Traveller communities have safe, clean and well-maintained sites, and that any new sites are developed in the right place and are supported by the wider community. Diolch.

This is a very concerning situation. Although the Welsh Government has accepted the 21 recommendations from the 2022 report, very, very little true progress has been made. And how can the Government justify the lack of action here? The funding is available, so that isn't the problem. The progress is far too slow for a community that's been waiting for decades for adequate accommodation. The Gypsy and Traveller accommodation assessments have failed to reflect the true nature of the needs of these communities, leaving many families in unacceptable living conditions, and it was very powerful to hear directly from voices from this community during the committee's inquiry, and it's those voices that are in my mind this afternoon as we discuss this report. And we can't accept a situation where Gypsies and Travellers are living in conditions that aren't just below standard, but also contrary to their human rights.

The 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan' published by the Welsh Government promised to improve conditions for Gypsy, Roma and Travellers, but, by the middle of 2023, none of the key actions had been achieved—again, totally unacceptable, and difficult to understand, because the funding was available. The community, understandably, has been disappointed and has been let down by the lack of action by the Government. Clearly, then, quite obviously, then, having plans on paper when the reality on the ground is entirely different isn't good enough. The plans have to be turned into action or this community will continue to suffer neglect. I am pleased, of course, that the Government has accepted the recommendations in this most recent report, but I do hope that, this time, we will see action. We have to see that, and practical action, and that being undertaken as a matter of urgency, in order to restore the faith of this vulnerable community in this Government's ability to deliver on its behalf.

I took part in the previous Local Government and Housing Committee inquiry and debate on Gypsy Traveller sites, in November 2022, and I'm glad that the capital funding restrictions and criteria have changed since then. I remember at one site the funding had been used by the local authority to improve the access road, but the residents would have actually liked the funding to have been used for play provision and to make the site tidier.

Sites are often on the outskirts of areas, away from amenities, with no pavements to safely link them. There was a lot of concrete and metal barrier fencing, they were poorly maintained, with a lack of green spaces and play provision for children. Their location next to busy roads and industrial sites, such as the one here in Cardiff, means noise and air pollution are a real issue. One place we visited had one electricity meter at the entrance to the site and extension cables linking caravans to the electricity provision at various points. Broadband was also poor in areas.

Representatives of the community should be consulted when planning where sites should be as part of the local development plan process, and also when any additional funding for site provision is made available.

Some councils take a long time to deal with repairs and maintenance. I recall a home we visited had a broken window, and another had ineffective gutters for surface water—it had been like that for a long time. Residents pay rent for their sites, just like any other tenant, and are subject to council tax, rent, gas, electricity, and other associated charges, in the same way as settled communities and residents. I thought then that the sites should actually move into the housing revenue account, to sit alongside other social housing, so rent is ring-fenced and reinvested, and then they could be brought back up to standard. I couldn't see a response from Welsh Government regarding clarification of where the rent income sits within local authority budgets, and I was wondering if we could have a response on that.

Travellers don't always want local authority sites; they would like to have their own private sites, on land they own. I remember visiting one private site, which they wanted to expand for their growing family, just by one or two caravans, so the family could remain nearby. One of the children, or grandchildren, was living with severe disabilities, and they needed family support. But planning takes a long time and it's controversial—we all know that. So, I think we need to have more cultural awareness, with the extended community all around, where there are sites between them, so it helps knock down barriers and build community cohesion.

I, along with other north Wales Members, Sam Rowlands and Jack Sargeant, recently met with Flintshire County Council political leaders and officers. They've provided allocated sites according to the assessed needs, but are now facing significant challenges with 15 illegal sites in the area. Those are sites that have been bought but don't have planning, 10 of which have been established in one year. These can take years to resolve and put pressure on council resources, and, again, upset the local community. I was told by a councillor that the site was pristine, but they did not have planning, and it was upsetting the settled community as they just said there wasn't a level playing field. This is why we need to have diversity officers in councils.

I was grateful to the Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice for meeting with us and arranging a discussion between Planning and Environment Decisions Wales and Flintshire council. However, they are struggling with capacity, and so are the courts. I would like to see more support for councils like Flintshire, who have done the right thing by having an adopted LDP with allocated sites, but they are dealing with disproportionate pressures compared to other counties, and they just need to help with community cohesion, and understanding the different ways in which people live, so that they can all get on much better. Thank you.

I'm glad to be part of the committee that originally looked at the provision for the Gypsy, Roma and Traveller report within this Senedd term. I recognise that there was a more original version of that report as well. I'm sure it's frustrating to the Chair of the committee to feel as though there's a need for regular repetition of reviewing this issue, and the fact that it's an issue that hasn't gone away in the time since the original report, with a report in this Senedd term, and now we have a third report—at least a third, perhaps I'm ignorant of others that have come along in the past as well.

I wanted to build on a point that Carolyn Thomas has just raised there, which is that I wonder if there's been a gap in some of the evidence the committee's received from local authorities that are going above and beyond, such as Flintshire. As Carolyn Thomas just outlined, it's a local authority with an LDP in place that is providing the right amount of perceived need of Gypsy Traveller accommodation, but is getting really bogged down with a significant number of illegal sites, which has taken a huge amount of resource from officers—well-meaning, hard-working officers—who are doing their best to manage in a difficult situation.

As Carolyn Thomas outlined, in the last 12 months, Flintshire council has had to deal with 10 illegal sites, 15 in total, currently, and it's causing, unfortunately, some quite significant local community tensions, because there's a perception that the council is not moving at the speed it should do. But it looks as though many of the issues are because of the process they are having to follow, meaning that it takes up to five years to deal with one of these sites. It's not good for our Gypsy Traveller community, because then there are certain perceptions being made about them. It's not good for our local community, because they're getting frustrated in this. It's not good for our local authorities, because they're getting bogged down in huge amounts of additional work, and our local councillors are also getting frustrated, because they're getting it in the neck for what's being perceived as a lack of progress. 

So, I wonder whether the Chair may be able to respond, towards the end of the debate, by considering whether there has been a gap in some of the evidence received from those councils that are doing the right thing—that are putting in place measures that should, in theory, work—but there are issues within the process and the system that are taking a huge amount of their time and resource away from what they want to do, which is to properly support our communities in whichever guise they present themselves in Wales.

And I too want to pay credit to the Cabinet Secretary and thank her for taking time to meet with myself, Carolyn Thomas, and Jack Sargeant, as north Wales Members, with Flintshire councillors and their officers, to have an honest and open discussion about this really important issue. I'm really pleased that we're able to discuss it on a cross-party basis and have a grown-up conversation about some of the challenges that are being faced at the moment.

I do appreciate, Deputy Presiding Officer, that this is specifically about the report that's in front of us today, so I will comment on section 6 of the report. Part 6 is entitled 'Capacity and resources', and I agree with my fellow north Wales colleague that there is a challenge within local authorities around capacity and resource in this area. I do wonder, though, whether part of that challenge around capacity and resource is because of that situation that I've just described, where those dedicated officers are getting caught up in a system and process, which is very long-winded, which has additional measures from a planning perspective, additional protections. I understand the reasons for those protections, but that is causing a significant strain on resource, which could be allocated more effectively in my view.

I also note recommendation 10 that the committee have brought forward here today, which is only accepted in principle by the Welsh Government, namely to ensure that each local authority has a Gypsy and Traveller liaison officer. I think that an allocation of a resource like this could go some way towards creating capacity in our local authorities, so that we don't continue to see the tension that we're all trying to mitigate. The Gypsy Traveller community want to do things in the right way; our settled communities want to ensure that their neighbours are doing things in the right way as well; and we need to make sure that our local authorities are set up to be able to do this, and not set up to fail.

So, I'm grateful for the work of the committee, and I hope for the Chair's sake that he doesn't have to keep coming back into this Chamber to keep raising the same issues time and time again. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

I'm really grateful to the committee for this very important follow-up report, which really holds up a mirror, I think, to the shameful lack of progress since their important 2022 report on the provision of sites for Gypsy, Roma and Travellers.

The first point I'd really like to make is the importance of not seeing these communities as one homogenous group. We say 'Gypsy, Roma, Travellers', but they have distinct and diverse characteristics, heritage, traditions, cultures and, crucially, needs. For example, Roma people living in Britain, of course, do not practice nomadism, but they do suffer discrimination and prejudice and are vulnerable when it comes to housing. So, I'd like to firstly ask the Cabinet Secretary how the specific needs of each group, and the Roma community specifically, are being identified and considered in terms of accommodation.

The Welsh Government's 'Anti-Racist Wales Action Plan', published in June 2022, included actions focusing on addressing the lack of suitable accommodation for Gypsy Traveller communities, including piloting an advice service for private site development. It was really shocking to read that none of the relevant actions had been progressed. Recommendation 8 of the committee's report, which looks at funding for private sites, is a really important one in order to help ensure progress on this matter and a way to mitigate the fact that there has been such negligible progress by local authorities. Could the Government provide clarity, please, on whether this action remains within the refreshed 'Anti-Racist Wales Action Plan'?

There and Back Again is a community-interest company that raises awareness of Gypsies and Travellers in Wales, allowing individuals with lived experience to have a direct voice. We heard about the importance of that in this inquiry from Siân Gwenllian. They are also the secretariat for the cross-party group on Gypsy Travellers, of which I am a member. They have advocated for allowing housing associations to access the capital sites grant, given the woeful lack of progress by local authorities to develop new sites, and given the politics, as Carolyn Thomas alluded to, which can influence decisions. I welcome that the Welsh Government have included the capital sites grant to housing associations in the 'Anti-Racist Wales Action Plan', and additionally have included the purchasing of land in the refresh of the plan.

So, would the Government consider supporting groups like There and Back Again to pilot the use of these grants to develop small and diverse types of sites, which could accommodate different types of family groups, cultural needs, and adaptations for disabled members of the Gypsy Traveller communities? For example, supporting the training that There and Back Again are about to start piloting with housing associations. It's crucial that this training and these approaches to housing associations must include a wide range of understanding from people with lived experience, starting with conversations and unpicking barriers, having honest discussions, which could ensure housing associations then feel confident and, crucially, supportive about the idea of developing such small private sites.

This, again, though not a complete answer to all the needs that need to be addressed, could go some way in at least helping some families. Of course, it will take time, but in the end, it's those families who are suffering, isn't it? People, families and children who should have their needs met after so many years of neglect. We need to start looking at additional ways to support the needs of those families with solutions that they support.

It's really clear from the report and the testimony of organisations and groups like There and Back Again, members of our cross-party group, that those families are in a worse position now than they have ever been in, and they're not seeing any change. What assurance can you give to those families that their lives will be improved? We really need new ideas, more genuine engagement, and swift action to put this failure so clearly outlined in the report right. Diolch.

I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice, Jane Hutt.

I thank the Local Government and Housing Committee for the opportunity to respond to the recommendations identified in its follow-up report on the provision of sites for Gypsy, Roma and Traveller people and communities in Wales. I appreciate the committee’s dedication to this important issue and share their ambition to deliver the best outcomes for Gypsy, Roma and Traveller people in Wales.

I want to respond to this debate, and the committee’s recommendations, in the context of our refreshed 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan', which has been mentioned this afternoon. As part of the action plan refresh, we reviewed our goals, which provided the opportunity to refocus our current ambitions for strengthening and supporting Gypsy, Roma and Traveller communities within the 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan'. That was very much in line with feedback from stakeholders, including, of course, the committee. Our refreshed goals were agreed and published in November last year. Since the initial committee inquiry in 2021, we’ve made progress in implementing the 22 recommendations, which, as has been acknowledged, the Welsh Government accepted, and, indeed, the 10 additional committee recommendations. I’m pleased to provide a further update on progress this afternoon.

In response to the key recommendation in terms of the provision of sites and the capital funding of sites, since we relaunched the sites capital funding last year, of the 15 local authorities who have a Gypsy and Traveller site, 14 local authorities have received capital funding to improve the conditions of their sites. This has come up again this afternoon as a key issue. Some of that capital funding is for bids that run over more than one year, in order to ensure that the work is done appropriately and effectively. The funding has resulted in more than £2 million for site improvements in 2024-25, as we complete that financial year, and, of course, then, capital funding moving forward to 2025-26. This will positively impact over 200 pitches. An important development, which has come from consultation, and also through engagement with local authorities and Gypsy, Roma and Traveller people, is that we’ve added the option to use the capital grant for site acquisition, to further support local authorities to meet their statutory duties.

Monitoring meetings are held across Wales, across local authorities. I have met with many local authorities, but I also very much rely on our officials working directly with those authorities, keeping me informed of plans for local authorities to address their Gypsy and Traveller accommodation assessments' unmet need, as required by the Housing (Wales) Act 2014. In response to Members’ concerns this afternoon, and the committee, where my officials believe local authorities are either not meeting their duties to meet housing needs, or progress against their Gypsy and Traveller accommodation assessments isn’t adequate, I will use my powers to enforce action against them if a resolution cannot be found. It’s important to say that today in this debate. The Housing (Wales) Act 2014 ensures that Gypsy and Traveller communities are safeguarded, by identifying and addressing accommodation needs in those accommodation assessments. Also for Members’ awareness, I think you ought to know that the GTAA guidance is currently out for public consultation, in preparation for local authorities to submit their accommodation assessments by February 2027.

As has been acknowledged this afternoon, building relationships is the key driver to make any change to the lives of the Gypsy and Traveller community. The relationships between local authorities, Welsh Government, and community members, are crucial for building trust and transparency. So, in February, we were able to reinstate the Gypsy, Roma and Traveller stakeholder group, and that was previously also a recommendation from the committee. This brings third sector organisations, community members, Welsh Government and local authorities back together to talk and listen and be part of one group.

I’m very pleased to say that There and Back Again, which has been mentioned already this afternoon, has been awarded the Gypsy, Roma and Traveller community recruitment contract to help us directly engage and have effective representation from these communities. Next week, they are meeting in west Wales, on 19 May, bringing members together again to share their thoughts, ideas, listen to other community members—of course, recognising all those different needs, which are not homogenous—sharing experiences and views. The relationships are essential for change, and the regional meetings are taking place across Wales, organised by There and Back Again. It's a critical forum to help us engage effectively with members. I am very pleased that I attended the first meeting of the reinstated Gypsy and Traveller cross-party group meeting, led by Julie Morgan MS, with There and Back Again serving as the secretariat. 

We begin another financial year, Dirprwy Lywydd, continuing the support for the development of local authority Gypsy and Traveller sites through the sites capital grant funding. We've reviewed the sites capital grant guidance. Priorities are focused on new pitches, including transit, improving the sustainability of sites for residents, and other capital expenditure relating to improved sites. And, of course, that accords with your recommendation in terms of improving those sites and ensuring that the funding is allocated and spent. The revised 'Managing Gypsy and Traveller Sites in Wales' guidance is currently being consulted on, and that guidance strongly emphasised the responsibility of local authorities to have a clear maintenance plan in place, emphasising the importance of regular maintenance, to keep sites in good conditions, and ensuring that facilities are well maintained—another key point made today. 

The responsibility of local authorities to engage with Gypsy, Roma and Traveller communities is also key and clear in that guidance, at the very early stages of consultation, when making any changes to their local authority sites. This ensures there is an opportunity for residents to share their thoughts on any proposals identified and gives residents a sense of involvement in site management and development. For many Gypsy and Traveller accommodation assessments, I've emphasised the need for local authorities to engage more effectively with the community, and I expect local authorities to identify ways in which they can improve engagement.

The issue around private sites has come up and, of course, is a recommendation in your updated inquiry. It is also key to the 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan'. The Welsh Government has approved an advice and advocacy contract to be delivered by Travelling Ahead at TGP Cymru, who, of course, have given evidence extensively and provided services. They're currently providing planning support, but the pilot programme will provide free expert professional planning advice. That's what families need—it's the expert advice—and that now is under way.

I will just quickly, Dirprwy Lywydd—. I have a lot more to say, but I recognise my time is up. Can I just say that I was grateful to meet with Sam Rowlands and Carolyn Thomas? Can I update about that meeting, and, of course, on behalf of Jack Sargeant as well, that Flintshire planning officials are meeting with my officials? Planning and Environment Decisions Wales have advised they currently only have five open appeal cases, which date back to 2024, but Flintshire has identified a need for a six-pitch transit site, due to the arrival of community members from Holyhead. Flintshire will seek cabinet approval for the intention of applying for planning permission to build this new transit site.

We are doing work on transit; we are also doing work to ensure that we tackle hate crime and that we engage with out Gypsy, Roma and Traveller communities. Next month is Gypsy, Roma and Traveller History Month, and that's an opportunity to learn about the richness of their cultures and significant contributions to our society here in Wales. Diolch yn fawr. 

I call on John Griffiths to reply. 

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I'd like to thank all Members who've contributed to the debate. There are some common themes. If we look at some of the tensions that Sam Rowlands referred to, and obviously are evident in Flintshire as well, often, I think, it's the illegal encampments that do generate a lot of difficulty for the Travellers and the settled community. It illustrates the lack of proper transitory provision, which is why those illegal encampments take place. So, it's really good to hear that Flintshire have that proposal for a transit site, which, hopefully, will deal with many of those issues. We need more of that across Wales.

My own local experience is that the police often liaise with Travellers and there are informal channels of communication, because there isn't a local identified transit site, but the police are able to direct Travellers to appropriate informal sites. Those arrangements work reasonably well, which shows there is co-operation, there is engagement, and where that happens, then it is to the benefit of the Travellers and local residents. So, we need to see that extended into the provision of these formal transit sites, and then the police, for example, would be able to direct any Travellers to those sites and we would see far fewer illegal encampments, I'm sure.

As we heard, Dirprwy Lywydd, private sites are often the preference of the Gypsy and Traveller community, and I've visited a couple as part of this committee work. We saw Gypsy and Traveller families very settled into their local areas, very much accepted by the local community, part of the local economy. It was all very positive, but they didn't have planning permission, they were illegal sites, and it was very difficult to understand why they wouldn't have had planning permission, to be frank. That's where we think about discrimination and prejudice in the systems that are sometimes institutionalised. That's why I believe that that planning service that the Cabinet Secretary has referred to is very valuable indeed, because, hopefully, it will get many more legal private sites with planning permission in place. Those smaller scale developments, I think, are very often preferred by the Gypsy and Traveller community, and more easily accepted by the local community as well.

I do think at heart this is a matter of human rights. The 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan' is obviously very important in ensuring human rights for these communities and dealing with the prejudice and discrimination that exists. These communities are entitled to an alternative way of life, aren't they? At bottom, in essence, I think a lot of these arguments centre around that. We have to facilitate and accommodate that alternative way of life.

When it comes to the nomadic element, for example, not that many generations ago, Gypsies and Travellers did travel very widely, but, of course, as urban sprawl developed, as cities and towns developed outward into the countryside, as commercial and industrial development took place, a lot of the traditional sites simply disappeared and that nomadic way of life has become more difficult. We need to understand that, recognise that, and embrace alternative cultures, alternative ways of life. I was very pleased to hear what the Cabinet Secretary had to say about how we do and will celebrate that. It's really important that we do so.

We've many examples in our original report and in this report of practical progress that's needed, that's been committed to by Welsh Government, by local authorities, but simply hasn't taken place. I think we are now at the stage where we have very strong commitment from Welsh Government, which we're very grateful for, real engagement with our local authorities and our Gypsy and Traveller communities. We need to do a lot more of it. We know now from what the Cabinet Secretary has said in her response to the most recent report that we've published that processes are in place. The infrastructure, the groupings, the training, the liaison officers, the forum, all of this is in place now.

But, of course, what really counts, and we've heard this from many Members in this debate today, is practical action on the ground. That's what really counts for these families. So, it's about new sites, private sites, but, obviously, it's much easier and there's much less excuse in so many ways for not doing the repair work and the refurbishment on the existing sites. Engagement is crucial to all of this, and it was instructive to hear what Carolyn Thomas said, wasn't it, I think, about an access road being provided when what that Gypsy and Traveller community wanted was proper play facilities for the families on the site.

Just in conclusion, Dirprwy Lywydd, we don’t have to look very far from here to see the reality of some, at least, local authority sites in totally inappropriate places, juxtaposed to busy roads, to industrial development, to waste disposal sites. To see families living in that way in this new millennium is hugely disappointing. So, there’s still a lot of work to be done here in Wales, and we need to see that Welsh Government commitment, local authority commitment and community buy-in to this badly needed action that’s set out in these two reports. And I really hope we see that in short order, because for this Senedd, there’s one year to go before those next elections, and none of us knows what those next elections will bring.

The proposal is to note the committee's report. Does any Member object? No. Therefore, the motion is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Item 6 is a debate on the Climate Change, Environment and Infrastructure Committee's report on halting and reversing the loss of nature by 2030. I call on the Chair of the committee to move the motion—Llyr Gruffydd.

Thank you very much, Dirprwy Lywydd. I’d like to start, if I may, by noting clearly that we, as a committee, do acknowledge that the Welsh Government has a wide range of policies, programmes and initiatives aimed at addressing Wales’s nature loss. And we recognise that there have been some success stories, and I’m sure that the Minister will want to talk about some of them during her contribution.  

Our report doesn't diminish the good work that is ongoing. Indeed, I’d like to take this opportunity to thank all those who play their part in supporting action for nature, from our stakeholders in the environment sector, to local and community groups, volunteers, and those individuals taking small but often very important steps, which can collectively make a very big difference.

But we cannot ignore the evidence presented in the 'State of Nature 2023 Wales' report. Despite efforts to date, Wales’s biodiversity and wider environment continues to decline and degrade. That report details the devastating scale of nature loss across the country. Welsh wildlife has decreased on average by 20 per cent since 1994, and one in six Welsh species are under threat of extinction. Against this background, and 18 months on from the adoption of the global biodiversity framework at COP15, the committee undertook an inquiry to consider how the Welsh Government is responding to the challenge of halting and reversing the loss of nature in Wales by 2030.

Time and again, we hear that addressing nature loss is a priority for the Welsh Government. And the Government was quick to sign up to the global biodiversity goals and targets. But to use an old adage, actions speak louder than words. Our report highlights delays time and time again in delivering commitments, a lack of a clear plan to meet those goals and targets, a lack of capacity and resources within the Welsh Government and among its key partners too, and a vast nature funding gap.

We made 30 recommendations to the Welsh Government. Six were rejected, and the remainder were either accepted or accepted in principle. As you can imagine, I don't have time to cover all of those recommendations today, so I will provide a flavour of each area that we cover in our report, and I will pick up on the Welsh Government’s response to some of our key recommendations.

First, we looked at the implementation of Part 1 of the Environment (Wales) Act 2016, which aims to reverse the decline in biodiversity. Now, at the time, the Act was considered forward-looking and innovative. But the evidence we received suggests that it has not bedded in as intended. According to environmental non-governmental organisations, the nature resources policy, which is required under the Act, has had—and I quote—'little material impact'. And the Welsh Government has yet to meet its statutory requirement to review the policy following the last Senedd election.

The section 6 biodiversity duty is about ensuring that public authorities take action to help address biodiversity loss. Despite the duty, biodiversity continues to be overshadowed by other priorities. The guidance to support implementation of the duty is not sufficiently strong, and oversight and monitoring arrangements are lacking. We are not alone in making these findings, by the way. In March, Audit Wales published its own report on the duty, which raised the very same issues.

The Welsh Government accepted our recommendation to strengthen the guidance on the duty, which is positive, and we welcome that. But we were clear that this needs to be done before getting to the legally binding biodiversity targets, because, under current proposals, these may be another four years away. So, Minister, will the Welsh Government commit to expediting work on the guidance, so that it is in place before the end of this Senedd term?

Our recommendation to use the forthcoming environment Bill—which will be with us, of course, in the next few months—to address the oversight and accountability deficit was rejected, and that's disappointing. I do think that it's reasonable to ask the Welsh Government to reconsider its position on that, particularly in light of the Audit Wales findings, as I have just referred to.

Moving on to the nature recovery action plan, which is, in effect, the national biodiversity strategy, this plan should set out the actions that will be taken to ensure Wales can deliver on global biodiversity goals and targets, but it is now well out of date. In May 2024, there was a pledge to introduce a revised plan, aligned with the 2030 targets and the global biodiversity framework. But we are still waiting.

In response to our report, the Government said that its goal is to launch the revised plan in October 2025—this year—which is almost three years after the global biodiversity framework was agreed. In explaining the delay, the Welsh Government said officials' time has been prioritised to meet the critical deadline for introducing the forthcoming environment Bill—a Bill that has been in the making, of course, since the fifth Senedd. This gets to the core of our concern that a lack of capacity and resource within the Welsh Government is holding it back on delivering its commitments.

As a committee, we have made no secret of our frustration about the time that it has taken to bring forward the environment Bill, which—to remind Members, of course—will provide a framework for setting legally binding biodiversity targets, among other things. We were surprised to hear from the Cabinet Secretary that these targets are unlikely to be in place much before 2029. That will be eight years after the Welsh Government first committed to setting those targets, and just one year, by the way, before the global 2030 targets need to be met. It's difficult to reconcile, therefore, this time frame with the Welsh Government's assertion that addressing nature loss is a priority.  

According to the Welsh Government, work to scope out the targets started over two years ago. It seems inconceivable that it will take another four years before they are in place. We called for a more ambitious time frame, which would see priority targets set within a year of the Bill being enacted. In rejecting our recommendation, the Welsh Government said this would be simply impossible to do.

Well, I think that it's important to point out, therefore, that the UK Government took just over 12 months to set targets following the Environment Act 2021. And the proposals in Scotland would see targets set within a year of the relevant provision of its new Natural Environment (Scotland) Bill coming into force. The committee will, no doubt, wish to pursue this issue further when we do scrutinise the environment Bill later this term.

I want to turn now to the global 30x30 target, which is considered central to efforts to halt and reverse the loss of nature by 2030. Currently, just under 70 per cent of the marine area is protected. Despite the high percentage, less than half of protected sites are in a favourable condition. According to one witness, in terms of the marine area, meeting the target is 'a distant reality'. For the terrestrial and inland area, 10.5 per cent is considered protected, but only 20 per cent of protected sites assessed are in a favourable condition. As things stand, meeting the 30x30 target will be a huge challenge.

Back in summer 2022, the Welsh Government established a group of experts to undertake a biodiversity deep-dive. The objective was to develop actions that could be implemented immediately in order to support the delivery of the target. We heard that some progress has been made, but it’s just too slow given the scale of the challenge and the time remaining until 2030. Even though this deep-dive work, of course, is an important first step, it appears that momentum is waning and, again, capacity and resource constraints across the board are holding back progress. 

We recommended, therefore, that the Welsh Government brings forward a detailed plan for meeting the 30x30 target—a plan that sets out who is responsible for action delivery, along with timescales and key milestones to measure progress; a plan that will improve transparency and then support scrutiny over the coming years. And I’m pleased to say that the Welsh Government has accepted this recommendation.

Returning to the marine area, the pace of expanding the marine protected areas network has been disappointingly slow. We have, on several occasions, highlighted the lack of progress on marine conservation zones, and little has changed. The repeated delays on the consultation on MCZs risk undermining confidence and sends a concerning signal to stakeholders about the priority afforded to marine conservation. Now, the Welsh Government has confirmed that a consultation on proposed sites will not take place until the seventh Senedd. It’s now over a decade since the reclassification of Skomer as the first and only MCZ in Wales. The latest delay in the designation process is another blow to completing the MPA network.

Finally, on investment in nature, the Green Finance Institute has estimated that between £5 billion and £7 billion will be required by the early 2030s to meet Wales's nature commitments. While the Welsh Government has acknowledged the nature funding gap, it has not provided a clear figure for its current investment in nature, and it does not have a plan to reach anywhere near the investment level required. While private sector investment is key to addressing the funding gap, stakeholders call for stronger direction from the Welsh Government and for actions to address existing barriers.

We called for a comprehensive nature finance strategy to lay the ground work for increased public and private investment in action for nature, and I’m again pleased to say that the Welsh Government has accepted the recommendation. But, Minister, it would be helpful if you could clarify the timing for the development of that strategy. We’d be keen to see the strategy, clearly, before the end of this Senedd term, if possible.

To conclude, temporary Deputy Presiding Officer, the window of opportunity to bring nature back from the brink is already small, and it’s shrinking. We hope that our report is an impetus to the Welsh Government to pick up the pace in meeting its commitments so that we see transformative change for nature. With just five years remaining to halt and reverse nature loss, it’s not just an option; we believe as a committee that it’s a necessity. And I look forward to hearing contributions from other Members. Thank you.

Thank you to the Chair of the committee.

Firstly, I'd like to offer the apologies of Janet Finch-Saunders, who is obviously a member of this committee, and unfortunately is unwell today and can't contribute to this. But I'd like to thank her for her contributions to the committee in this inquiry, which I think is a really important inquiry.

Looking at the 30 recommendations, I was drawn, as a farmer's son, as the spokesperson on rural affairs, to recommendations 28 and 29, where there is mention of the sustainable farming scheme, because we know the importance of that scheme in going forward, in funding agriculture properly to be able to help with the restoration of nature on land, parking the marine environment for one second. And point 126 of the report itself shows, and I quote, the 'critical role' of the SFS, and I think that's really imperative—that we understand how important this future scheme is to the delivery of not just agriculture and food production, but towards nature restoration as well.

One of the key elements of that is ensuring that farmers do subscribe to the SFS. I think that that is the most integral part here, which is broadly accepted by all those who discuss this or who sit on the advisory panels advising the Deputy First Minister at the moment, be they on the environmental side, be they on the agricultural side—I don't see that there is too much of a distinction between those sides. But each one of those organisations understands the importance of agriculture, farmers signing up to these schemes, otherwise all the potential benefits of the scheme won't be acknowledged, won't be accepted and won't be brought into action. So I think there's a key point there.

What I also think worked really well, as a member of the Economy, Trade and Rural Affairs Committee, is the work of Llyr Gruffydd’s committee. The Climate Change, Environment and Infrastructure Committee works hand in glove with the Economy, Trade and Rural Affairs Committee on many of these elements as well, and a fine example of that is the inquiry on soil health that the Economy, Trade and Rural Affairs Committee is undertaking at the moment, because good soil health underpins everything with regards to nature on our land. Food, food production and productivity, yes, but ensuring healthy soils and healthy microbes in the soils, and everything that we're learning through the committee as well at this present moment really underpins the importance of good soil health to our nature restoration.

So, I really welcome the report by the committee. I think there are some good points here around what can be done going forward, and an acknowledgement of what is being done at the moment. But I think that could potentially—. Not speaking on behalf of the Chair of the committee, Andrew R.T. Davies, who's not here, of the Economy, Trade and Rural Affairs Committee, but, when the sustainable farming scheme does come forward, most probably at the Royal Welsh Show—working to the Welsh Government's calendar, I'm guessing there that it'll be announced at the Royal Welsh Show—there would be a piece of work, I believe, that both committees would look at the sustainable farming scheme to ensure that it (a) delivers for agriculture, and that's the committee that I sit on, its remit, but, in the remit of Llyr’s committee, looking at how it delivers for nature as well. That collective piece of work by both committees can come forward and really deliver strong scrutiny, hopefully helping the Government in developing a scheme that not only delivers on its core principles, but is attractive for agriculture and farmers to sign up to it. Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd.

I'd like to thank the Chair of the committee for his leadership, and the committee team, and the stakeholders who gave evidence that enriched our report. And ‘enrich’ is an apt word here, because the natural world enriches our world and our lives. It supports our health as well as our wealth of wildlife. So, why isn't it more of a priority?

Early on in this Senedd it was a privilege for me to lead a debate that led to the Senedd declaring a nature crisis—a privilege because I thought that that declaration would then lead to greater action, action that would ensure that the heartbreaking trends would turn a corner, that we would see a change in the forecasts. But the trends have continued. We have known for some time that one in six of our species faces extinction. I'm concerned that our society and the world has become used to the destruction. That's the frightening reality. And as our report makes clear, we must see significant change if we are to protect our natural world.

There is still hope, if we act. Our committee has drawn attention to the opportunities that will accompany the environmental principles Bill, but significant barriers remain with regard to targets, as we've heard. We are clear this Government must explain why it has taken six years to develop targets here in Wales, and state whether the Government believes that the delay has been acceptable, bearing in mind that tackling biodiversity loss is meant to be a priority for the Welsh Government.

Now, on targets too, as we've heard, we've also called for details on the work that the Government has done since March 2023 to scope targets, and for an internal Government review, as a matter of urgency, of the reports, of the resources allocated to the departments involved in this policy area. If this work is a priority, and I strongly believe that it does have to be, it's right that it must mean more than just words. We also call on the Cabinet Secretary to improve co-operation across departments to integrate nature restoration in wider policy areas to ensure a whole-Government response to the nature crisis.

Now, there were several other recommendations that the Chair set out in detail, but I'd like to conclude, acting Dirprwy Lywydd, by mentioning once again why this work is so crucial to our world. Before long, our country will fall silent as we lose more and more birds, as we lose rare species. Our vibrant living landscapes will be all the poorer as a result. We need to do all that we can to prevent the crisis. We can't afford to wait any longer. For the sake of our world today, and for the sake of avoiding creating a dystopia for our children, the Government must pick up the pace. We must save our world before it's destroyed.

We held the inquiry for this report last October. However, I'm glad we're bringing it forward in spring, when nature is awakening, trees are back in leaf, birds are singing and nest building, and we held our Senedd Biodiversity Day yesterday. I delight in seeing a butterfly, but it reminds me of how scarce they have become. Sixty per cent of flying insects have declined over the last few years. In fact, one in six species are at risk of extinction. Each insect is part of an ecosystem; they're really important. So, to lose 60 per cent is huge.

The UK is one of the most nature-depleted countries. Once common garden birds have dropped dramatically in the wake of intensive agriculture and habitat loss, by up to 71 per cent for some birds. So, every bug, insect, bird, pollinator, plant and animal, including us, are part of this important ecosystem. We cannot survive without nature. It's needed for our food, our environment, our economy. Ignore it or take it for granted at our peril. But that's what's happening. We have lost 97 per cent of our wildflower meadows since the 1970s. Our water is becoming polluted. Pesticides, artificial fertilisers, monocultures, removal of hedgerows and ponds have all added to the decline. Over 90 per cent of land in Wales is dedicated to agriculture, but it's not captured in this report, Sam. I was told a separate one had been done previously on the sustainable farming scheme, that's why. But we must acknowledge that.

Our rivers and seas are heavily polluted: Welsh Water and storm overflows account for approximately 30 per cent; based on science, the majority is agricultural. Plastic pollution has also impacted, and I'm pleased that the Welsh Government is investing in the national seagrass action plan, which will help create habitat, absorb carbon and help with flood prevention. It was also really popular with people and engaged their imagination, really, which is great. That's what we need to do to, to bring people along with us. Given the current state of Wales's nature, meeting the 30x30 commitment, effectively managing 30 per cent of our land and sea for nature by 2030, will be an extraordinary challenge, especially with the growing climate change deniers, which I'm hearing more about and really concerned about. We need to act quickly to bring nature back. It is incumbent on all of us to halt and reverse the loss of nature, but it takes years to change, and lots of perseverance. We can do this, though, by change and by education.

The Welsh Government's Local Places for Nature funding is critical to do that. Without the funding, biodiversity officers in councils would not have reached targets. In fact, many would no longer have been employed now. Under the funding, more than 4,000 green spaces have been created or improved for nature and growing food. Twenty thousand volunteers are involved, transforming their lives, thanks to the mental and physical well-being of connecting with nature. There are more than 2,400 pollinator sites, 800 food-growing sites and 700 community orchards, as well as 86 therapeutic gardens for mental health and well-being. Flintshire County Council has just achieved bee-friendly status and manages 117 sites for nature. Denbighshire County Council has a new nature reserve, which is home to trees grown from locally sourced seeds. They have a nursery where they have their own bank of wildflowers, which is really important.

The Nature Networks fund has also been important in achieving wider resilient ecosystems in which habitats and species can thrive and expand, both marine and terrestrial. We need this to connect people to nature. We can all play our part in the journey towards a nature-positive Wales: adopting 'No Mow May', building small ponds, having scrapes and birdbaths—we all need water; all life needs water—having messy gardens—nature isn't neat—avoiding insecticides, helping farmers to adopt nature-friendly farming practices. It takes time, but together we can make a difference. Thank you.

Almost a fifth of Wales's most important sites for wildlife is on the Gwent levels, and a big chunk of the Gwent levels is in my constituency of Newport East. Across the landscapes and watercourses of the levels, there is a rich assemblage of biodiversity that is critical to the area and its future, an area that has been described in the past as 'Wales's Amazon'. The grips, ditches, reens and main rivers provide a safe and thriving habitat for a whole range of different species, including the water vole, which I am pleased to champion here in the Senedd. And through the work of organisations such as the Gwent Wildlife Trust, they've been successfully reintroduced back into sites such as Magor Marsh nature reserve, and have then spread outwards from that particular location.

But, of course, it's not just the water vole that's evident on those Gwent levels; there are species such as the great silver water beetle, the shrill carder bee, the marsh harrier and many more that can regularly be seen at this very popular Newport wetlands, which, of course, is an RSPB site and does a great job in connecting local people to nature, and also demonstrating how nature can exist and indeed thrive cheek by jowl with industry.

There are in nature, of course, all sorts of different sizes and species and examples of our wonderful biodiversity, and they all make their own important contributions to an area. On the Gwent levels, this includes six sites of special scientific interest, and we very much need to understand their importance for our environment to thrive. And that brings me to some of the threats to the levels, because, unfortunately, they are very real, particularly, at the moment, from developers looking to take forward large-scale solar farms, taking advantage of the area's topography and closeness to the grid. This has caused a great deal of concern to the wildlife trust, local communities and environmental groups in general.

Research by the Gwent Wildlife Trust found that maps indicate that, if all the solar development proposals currently on the table were built, up to 19 per cent of the total area of the levels' SSSIs could be within development boundaries—that would be approximately 1,038 hectares. For one of the affected SSSIs, as much as 43 per cent of the total area could fall within development boundaries if all were built.

We all know, of course, and we all say it, and it's very true, that we do need more renewable energy projects—we need very many more, and, hopefully, we'll be fully dependent on renewable energy in the UK and in Wales before too long, and solar energy will have a very important part to play, but it's often said, but it's very true to say and it needs to be said, that, obviously, developments always have to be in the right place, and I believe very strongly that the Gwent levels is not the right place.

There is already one solar farm in operation at Llanwern, on the levels, and the Welsh Government's own post-construction monitoring report found that lapwing numbers have declined and the new lapwing mitigation area that was created hasn't attracted a single lapwing pair three years after construction. Key bee species numbers are down, including significant declines in the shrill carder bee and brown-banded carder bee populations. Bat activity is declining and a pair of common crane have left the area.

I think it's quite clear that, if further solar applications are allowed to go ahead, we risk detrimentally changing the nature of this incredibly important area for biodiversity, for cultural heritage and for unique landscape, changing it for good and destroying the vital biodiversity that we are so lucky to have on our precious Gwent levels.

Today, I want to focus on marine impacts. Wales has 139 marine protected areas that cover 69 per cent of our inshore waters, up to 12 nautical miles. Welsh seas are more than a third larger than our land mass, and at least 113 million tonnes of carbon are already stored in our marine habitats, almost 10 years' worth of Welsh carbon emissions. And as we've heard already today, most of those are actually not in a favourable state.

It's timely, isn't it, that we're discussing this today, because tomorrow David Attenborough's latest film, Ocean, shows the chaos hidden beneath the waves caused by harmful fishing practices, particularly practices like bottom trawling. The film shows a massive net dragged across the ocean floor by a heavy metal beam, destroying habitat, stirring up silt, releasing carbon and capturing marine life indiscriminately. I have spoken many times here against bottom trawling, and yet it is allowed in marine protected areas here in Wales. To me, it's simply unacceptable. The damage done is completely disproportionate to any possible benefit that could be derived from it.

Ocean also highlights the vital role of seagrass and the work that's being done to restore them. Seagrass meadows act as a vital habitat for marine life, a carbon sink, a natural barrier against coastal erosion and storm surges, and they enhance water quality. As has been mentioned by my colleague already, I'm very pleased that the Welsh Government has awarded £1.12 million of funding to seagrass and salt marsh restoration projects since 2021, through the Nature Networks programme and the coastal capacity building scheme.

The committee's report does call for urgent action to halt and reverse the loss of nature, and I'm pleased that the Welsh Government accepted recommendation 19 on their next steps in the consultation process and the designation of marine conservation zones. A contractor was appointed in January to undertake the regulatory impact assessment, and that should now be completed. I'm really keen to know this: first of all, why did it take so long, but when can we expect the Minister to report back to this Chamber on the outcome of that and, more importantly, take some action?

Recommendation 20 was accepted in principle—well, we've all got principles—and the Welsh Government should ensure that the marine protected areas are supported by robust management frameworks, address the pressures such as fishing activities and the offshore developments, as well as other human impacts.

So, since 2020, I will be thankful, I suppose, along with other people, that £500,000 of grants have been awarded to projects aimed at improving understanding and addressing pressures, and that framework is being reviewed in 2025. Again, time is running out. We want to know what that means. The Welsh Government has been looking at various fishing gear types. I have looked at one that I would urgently want reviewed, but I have also spoken before about missing fishing gear and about tagging some fishing gear, counting it in and counting it out, so that we know we're not going to get ghost fishing going along. It's horrendous. It's cruel. Animals are trapped in it and they starve to death. There are programmes that we could sign up to.

We know that the UK Government is signalling that they're going to accelerate the development of offshore wind, including proposed sites in the Welsh offshore area, and the Welsh Government is working alongside them to ensure that any strategic compensation measures delivered through the marine recovery fund are suitable for the Welsh marine environment. What I would ask is: could you please explain what that means? Because I don't know. And I'm sure that we would all be very interested. Thank you.

I now call on the Counsel General and Minister for Delivery, Julie James.

Diolch, Diprwy Lywydd dros dro. I'd like to begin by thanking members of the committee for their focus on halting and reversing the loss of nature by 2030, and Members of the Senedd for all of their valuable and insightful comments during the course of this debate.

It is really useful to remind ourselves of the challenge set out in the Kunming-Montreal global biodiversity framework: to take urgent action to halt and reverse biodiversity loss; to put nature on a path to recovery for the benefit of people and the planet; working towards the goal of a world living in harmony with nature, whereby by 2050 biodiversity is valued, conserved, restored and wisely used; maintaining ecosystem services; sustaining a healthy planet; and delivering benefits essential for all people.

We remain absolutely committed to achieving this ambitious goal and, earlier this year, the UK national biodiversity strategy and action plan was published, marking a pivotal moment for Wales and for the UK. It provides a strong framework to align our national efforts with these international targets, highlighting our shared ambition and unwavering commitment to tackling biodiversity loss.

As many of you have said, resilient ecosystems are essential to address the climate and nature emergencies. Protecting and enhancing biodiversity in Wales is vital, as it underpins the health of our environment and strengthens our ability to adapt to these challenges. There is no greater gift we can offer future generations than a thriving, safeguarded natural environment, so I welcome the committee's report and this important debate we're having today. Our response to the committee reflects the positive reception of its report. We remain committed to refining our nature policies, increasing the pace and scale of delivery, and strengthening our approach where needed.

The nature emergency, as many of you have said, and Delyth in particular actually emphasised the urgent challenge that demands action from all of us across Wales. The committee report highlights reversing biodiversity loss requires more than Government efforts. It calls for bold ambition, shared responsibility and collaboration from every community and sector. I just want to emphasise that: every community and sector. Much of what the Welsh Government has been doing is working with sectors right across Wales to stop pointing fingers across the way and saying, 'It's your fault', but to actually look at themselves to say, 'What can we do to halt the biodiversity loss and, in fact, to accelerate the restoration of biodiversity?'

Joyce Watson mentioned the Ocean programme. I’ve been watching the trailers with interest too. One of the things that he says in the trailer bit—I'm looking forward to seeing the whole thing—and we know this right across Wales, actually, is that all you have to do is give nature a chance and it recovers. One of the only points of hope in that programme is that, actually, if we just leave it alone, it will recover.

We can see that right across Wales in many of the projects that we've put out and initiatives like Plantlife's 'No Mow May' campaign, which encouraged everyone to take simple, impactful actions. Put away your lawn mowers for the month of May. I'd go further and say, 'Put away your lawn mowers until August.' Let the plants and flowers in your lawn blossom. Let them seed. Let them actually provide the bountiful harvest that the insects need, and the birds need the insects, and you have an absolute ecosystem right there on your lawn. If only we could persuade people that a neat green lawn is a desert, that would be a major step forward.

Carolyn, I know you did a load of work on trying to get all our highways authorities to see the verges like that. If we could get those wildlife plot corridors re-established in Wales, we would have gone a long way to that. The 'It's for Them' campaign emphasises adopting nature-friendly mowing practices as well to create habitats for wildlife.

Dirprwy Lywydd dros dro, I cannot help but say, I'll just give this small insight into the life of a Minister. I went to visit a 'No Mow May' project when I was climate change Minister in a county—I won't say what the county was—and because the local councillors knew a Minister was coming, they had the area of grass mowed, so that it was tidy when we got there. I just think that tells you how much work we've got to do for people to understand that 'tidy is dead'. I then proceeded to have quite the argument with a resident, who came over to tell me how glad he was that the area had been mowed because now it was tidy, and pointed me at his own garden, where there was not a single insect, because it was all very neat and tidy. Tidy is death. A little bit of untidiness, a bit of dead wood, some nettles and leaves and so on, that's where the insects hide. That's where they breed. It's where the next generation of songbirds will get their food from, and so on. I can't remember off the top of my head how many thousands of insects a pair of swifts needs, but it's 20-odd thousand insects. You know, we need those. We need those untidy areas in our garden.

So, this kind of collaboration and behaviour change is what we're looking at, and we need every single part of our society to collaborate with us. We continue to actively engage with a diverse range of stakeholders on key work areas, including the actions to achieve the 30x30 target. The national seagrass action plan, which a number of people have mentioned, and the development of the environmental principles, governance and biodiversity targets (Wales) Bill, and the sustainable farming scheme, are all part of the same pattern.

To ensure the biodiversity targets are both effective and grounded, we've drawn on the expertise of over 70 organisations. We've got a comprehensive programme of engagement, bringing together diverse perspectives to shape targets that will truly make a difference. This will give us the confidence that we are addressing the most urgent priorities for nature in Wales. Members, I cannot emphasise that enough: when these targets come out, they must land well. They must land with vigour and they must land with acceptance, so that people embrace them. We do not want another five years of arguments about whether the targets are or aren't okay for each sector. So, that's what's taking the time, because actually it's important that when they are put out there, they land well, and each sector embraces them in a way that means that we can actually take them forward.

In order to help that to happen, we've been bringing nature closer to people through projects like Local Places for Nature and Natur am Byth. In this Senedd term alone, the Welsh Government has invested over £150 million to restore nature and improve access to it on people's doorsteps. Focusing on delivering action on the ground to date, we've backed over 90 projects through our Nature Networks programme to improve our protected sites and connect people with nature. And recently, we were delighted to unveil an additional 13 outstanding projects across Wales that will benefit from the support of the Nature Networks fund. These projects all play a key role in restoring and strengthening Wales's natural heritage, from building bat towers to providing countryside management training.

Equipping people with the skills needed to aid nature's recovery, these initiatives will connect communities and habitats, improving the condition and resilience of Wales's protected areas of land and sea. Some examples are the National Trust Cymru project in Bannau Brycheiniog national park, which will restore 500 hectares of habitats, reconnect fragmented ecosystems and offer training in nature recovery to people from all backgrounds. And for those of you who haven't been, Dr Beynon's Bug Farm in north-west Pembrokeshire will use the funding to enhance the common special area of conservation and establish a nature recovery teaching centre. It's an excellent place, which I highly recommend, and you can see all kinds of interesting creepy crawlies there and watch them in their natural habitat. These projects all highlight the power of collaboration and the lasting impact of investing in nature recovery. By connecting people with nature and providing the tools for long-term conservation, we're building a more resilient and thriving environment across Wales.

Later this year, we plan to build on this and launch another round of funding for the Nature Networks fund to support the continuation of medium- and large-scale projects, but bolster key capacity-building efforts, ensuring we can deliver impactful and lasting benefits for nature and communities alike. We're making significant strides in nature restoration. The national forest expansion and grants like the woodland investment grant have enhanced woodlands, while £40 million-worth of investment supports river restoration and biodiversity through projects like the Nant Dowlais and the Habitat Wales scheme. And additionally, the Habitat Wales scheme has allocated £16 million to help farmers enhance over 341,000 hectares of habitat and restore around 300 km of hedgerows.

You need to conclude now, please, Minister.

Yes, well, as I always say, it's very hard to answer all the questions in the time available. I just want to say two more things, just on Joyce's point about bottom trawling.

We have got a project running in which we're looking at all kinds of fishing that's allowed in Welsh seas, not just in protected areas, to see what is the most sustainable. And I want to commend to you the fishing gear recycling programme that we've been running, which you can see active on Swansea docks as well as a number of other places. Since 2023, we've collected over 15 tonnes of discarded gear, tackling marine plastic pollution, safeguarding wildlife and stopping the ghost fishing, Joyce, that you particularly referenced.

I just want to finish by saying that the only other thing I haven't mentioned so far is that we must unlock private funding and direct it to priority areas. We're having a piece of work done, which we will have completed by the end of this Senedd term, to give guidance to people who are looking to invest to get private investment into Wales, so that it is not greenwashing, so that it's the right kind of private investment, that is goes to the right places. But there is no way a Government alone can unlock the funding necessary to do this. So, we must give all our landowners and all our people the right guidance to get the right kind of private investment in, and not the greenwashing that I know everybody wants to avoid.

We're in the final stages of developing the criteria for identifying the areas that will contribute to the 30x30 goal. You will all have heard me say in previous times that we are determined to do this properly. We could just say it's all designated land areas in Wales and that's it—done. But that's not good enough. There has to be areas that can be brought back into good environmental conservation status, and so we are making sure that we have the criteria to do that to make sure that we reverse biodiversity loss right across Wales. Diolch. 

I call on Llyr Gruffydd to reply to the debate. 

May I thank everyone who has contributed? I think there were many common themes that emerged in the contributions. Certainly, everyone has a role to play and everyone needs to come on this journey, a message we heard in the first contribution as well as in that final contribution.

Delyth referred to the environmental principles Bill. The debate on targets is going to be a very live one as we scrutinise that Bill—where targets appear and what they are, and so on and so forth. Carolyn is quite right—it's the right time of the year to be discussing this particular topic, but it's also quite right to remind ourselves of how much has been lost over the years. The reference to the funds is important because they have had a positive impact, and I am pleased to note that the Welsh Government has accepted our recommendations in the context of those funds.

The Gwent levels were described as the Amazon of Wales, and I think that there is some truth in that. I, like many Members, am highly aware of the concerns around some of the solar plans and the possible impact that they may have on the Gwent levels. That reminds us of recommendation 30, the very final recommendation in the report, which focuses on the importance of ensuring that this works of nature restoration is integrated across departments within Government. Energy policy and planning policy are just as important as any environmental policy when it comes to these issues.

The marine environment is one that is forgotten and neglected far too often, although Joyce makes every effort to remind us of its importance. The dragging of feet around designations of marine protected areas is something that has been a cause of frustration. I remember the debate when I first arrived here to the Senedd in 2011—there was a debate on extending some of those zones or creating new zones. And, of course, we are still not where many of us would want us to be.

The Counsel General is quite right—there is no better gift that we could bestow to the next generation. Every community and every sector has an opportunity and a duty to work together. We all need to take this journey together, as we have said. And in terms of No Mow May, I did it first a few years ago, and I found that there were so many flowers that were hidden in the lawn, and I've done it every year since then. If people are listening to this, what I would say is give it a try once and I can guarantee that you will never go back. It is incredible what is hidden in your lawn, if it has an opportunity to emerge.

But working together and encouraging behavioural change, I think, is the main message. There is frustration that remains in terms of the pace of some of these processes. You talk about more funding from the private sector. Well, that's something that's been talked about for many years. And the 30x30 aim; as I mentioned in my opening speech, with elements of policies not being in place until 2029, that does pose a question as to the reality in terms of delivering on some of these issues. But I do know that there will be an opportunity for us to revisit some of these themes as we scrutinise the environmental principles Bill in the coming months. I know that we as a committee are looking forward to having the opportunity to do so. Thank you.

The proposal is to note the committee's report. Does any Member object? No. Therefore, the motion is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Item 7 today is the Plaid Cymru debate: Welsh Government performance during the sixth Senedd. I call on Rhun ap Iorwerth to move the motion. 

Today marks a year exactly until the next Senedd election, an election that, for so many reasons, promises to be an important new chapter in the history of Welsh democracy. Cast your mind back to May 2021 and the aftermath of the last election. Still in the midst of the pandemic, the then First Minister, now Cabinet Secretary for finance, assured us that a Welsh Labour Government would stand up for Wales, that nobody would be left behind and nobody would be held back. The following four years have seen monumental changes, both inside and outside this Senedd: the lifting of the final COVID restrictions; turbulence and trauma, both domestic and international; the end of 14 years of Conservative rule and the election of a new UK Government; two changes in First Minister here; a donations scandal and ministerial reshuffles galore. But one thing has remained consistent throughout, which is a conspicuous failure on the part of this Labour Government to live up to those pledges made at the start of this Senedd term.

Indeed, everywhere you look, whether it's the NHS, our economy, schools or society more broadly, the situation is worse now compared to where we were in 2021: our precious NHS on its knees, buckling under the weight of a waiting list backlog that's grown by approximately 200,000 since the last election; a stagnant economy that ranks amongst the worst performing in the UK on employment, productivity and wage growth and that been beset by catastrophic job losses; a steel industry betrayed in Wales whilst championed in England; a third of our children living in poverty, with rates projected to be on an upward trajectory throughout the rest of this decade; and educational standards that have deteriorated to the extent that Wales recently recorded its worst ever PISA scores, and a fifth of Welsh children are classified as functionally illiterate by the time they reach secondary school. This is the sorry record that will be left by Labour to the next Welsh Government.

I would be the first to recognise that there are external factors that need to be taken into account, too, and the Conservative Party is guilty of leaving a legacy that can only be described as disgraceful. And once again, we see the hypocrisy of the Tories demonstrated with their amendment. No suggestion of being sorry for supporting the budget of Liz Truss that caused so much damage to the UK and Welsh economy, never mind their responsibility for the hard Brexit that continues to create so many barriers for Welsh businesses.

And let's be honest, 14 years of austerity will be a permanent stain on the Conservatives' time in office. It's no wonder that they suffered a slaughter electorally in Wales last summer, and the opinion polls for the Senedd election suggest that they are increasingly irrelevant in the mind of Welsh constituents.

But the excuses are far harder to bear now that the Labour Party is in Government in Westminster, something that was pledged time and time again by Labour Members for years prior to the election would lead to change for the better. Rather than that, what we've seen is one pledge after another being ignored and a Labour Party that is working deliberately, it would seem, against the interests of the people of Wales.

Labour working against Wales's interests can be seen in so many ways. How else to explain the callous decision to knowingly push yet more of our citizens into poverty through cuts to the welfare budget that even George Osborne would wince about, and a refusal by a Labour First Minister of Wales to condemn that? Or the withdrawal of the winter fuel allowance, which the older people's commissioner has warned will cause 4,000 excess deaths in Wales, or the continued refusal to provide us with a single penny's worth of HS2 consequentials, the ability to retain the wealth of our own natural resources or to even countenance the notion that Wales deserves parity of constitutional status with Scotland.

Rarely has a political party owed so much to a group of voters, and yet given so little in return. So, now more than ever, we need a Welsh Government truly prepared to stand up against Westminster's excesses and demonstrate a strong decisive leadership that puts country firmly before party. And yet, as their amendment to our motion demonstrates, which deletes that mention of standing up for Wales, at the worst possible time, we have a Government too afraid of rocking the boat to put up even a token defence against Starmer's extreme austerity agenda, because that's what it is.

Will you take an intervention?

Yes, certainly.

The First Minister said yesterday that she is speaking for Wales, that it's nation first before party, and she's been speaking up regarding the cuts to disability, because it's so important to Wales—we do have a sicker population—speaking up for railway funding, and I know that our Cabinet Secretary has also been speaking about the two-child cap as well.

Thank you for the intervention. Yesterday, we did hear words, yes, but for nine months, we have seen what the instinct is of this Labour First Minister, and that has been to protect the interests of Labour by refusing to stand up, refusing to condemn those benefit cuts, refusing to speak out when she should have spoken out. This is a Government that's spent all of its energy over the past year on managing internal party chaos, including three different First Ministers and making excuses for their partners in power. And regardless of the First Minister's desperate reset this week, with her belated attempt to switch on the clear red water after months of allowing the tap to run dry, the Welsh public will not be fooled. Either you can look after each other's interests, don't rock the boat, have that kind of partnership in power, or you can have the clear red water with Westminster. You can't have both.

This underlines the irreconcilable dilemma facing members of the Westminster parties, that regardless of their commitment to the people of Wales—and I say this: I don't for one second doubt the personal sincerity of any Labour Member here on that front—it always has to be framed, it always has to be negotiated and circumscribed within the confines of the interest of their party bosses in London. It's something that came across loud and clear in this week's rebrand speech by the First Minister, full of your pretty vacuous slogans and pretty empty rhetoric. Any defiance was cosmetic, with a glaring absence of unambiguous calls, for example, for a reversal of Labour's cruel welfare cuts. Plaid Cymru has no such limitations. I want a constructive relationship with any UK Prime Minister, but we are solely answerable to the people of Wales; no ifs, and no buts.

The devolution dividend isn't paying out under Labour. It's a Welsh Government that has run its course, run out of ideas and the will to stand up to Westminster on Wales's behalf. It's given up on Wales, and that's why more and more Labour voters see Plaid Cymru's programme for government as both compelling and credible. Labour offered change in that election last year, and failed to deliver. We now want to inject currency back to the message of change after Labour devalued it so much. So, the next election provides the Welsh electorate with a historic opportunity to cut out the middleman and entrust the reins of power to a party who they can be absolutely certain will never have to defer to Westminster before charting a better future for our nation. If Members truly want to stand up for Wales, they'll vote for our motion today.

I have selected the two amendments to the motion. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be deselected. I call on Paul Davies to move amendment 1, tabled in his own name.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I'm pleased to move the amendment tabled in my name. I welcome the opportunity to debate the Welsh Government's performance during this Senedd. The facts speak for themselves: in every possible policy area, this Government has found a way to fail the people of Wales and make their lives harder. Whether it's NHS performance, educational standards or economic activity, this Welsh Government has ensured that Wales has languished at the bottom of the league tables. Whilst Cabinet Secretaries and Ministers here fail to take any meaningful accountability, behind each set of statistics is someone who has been let down—patients of all ages waiting too long for treatment, children who are not reaching their potential at school, or business owners facing red tape and bureaucracy. Only this morning I had constituents contacting me because they had to wait hours and hours for an ambulance. It's not good enough, and our people deserve better.

Things have been so bad that the latest First Minister has had to create a Minister for Delivery to address the barriers in delivering the programme for government. And we remember a previous First Minister establishing a delivery unit, but that quickly disappeared with no improvements whatsoever.

Of course, it's not fair to say that the Welsh Government has done nothing in power in the last few years. They've been very busy with their own priorities, and we'll have 36 more politicians come into the Senedd next year to show for it. It's not just more politicians that this Welsh Government is responsible for. We've had bans on major road building and bans on meal -deal promotions under this Government, and where they can't ban, they tax—a tourism tax, a second homes tax and now it seems they're looking at tinkering with the income tax system, because this Welsh Government doesn't want to get to grips with the real problems facing households in Wales. Instead, by focusing on their so-called priorities, all they've done is hold businesses back and make people more miserable.

Now, as point 2 in our amendment states, we believe that not only has the Welsh Government failed to deliver for the people of Wales, it has also

'failed to stand up to the UK Government on behalf of the people of Wales',

regardless of what the First Minister told us yesterday. The Welsh Government did nothing when the UK Government announced its changes to inheritance tax for family farms. It did nothing when the UK Chancellor shamefully cut the winter fuel payment, and it failed to stand up for businesses across Wales as the UK Government hiked up employers' national insurance costs. And it begs the question, what good is a Welsh Government if it can't even stand up for the people that it's supposed to represent? It's clear that fresh leadership is needed because the Government has run out of ideas, and the reality is that only under a Welsh Conservative Government will things get better.

Now, as we all know, it's been Plaid Cymru that has been pulling the Welsh Government's strings in this Senedd. Politics is a numbers game and policies and legislation only pass when there's a majority in this place that vote for them. In this Senedd, Plaid Cymru have been instrumental in propping up the Welsh Government and voting through their policies. It has become standard practice for Plaid Cymru to prop up a Labour Government—they've done it on and off for years—and I believe that they too should be accountable for the impact that the Welsh Government's policies are having on the people of Wales.

It's quite something that Plaid Cymru can bring forward this motion without any reference to their co-operation agreement, which has enabled this Welsh Government to fail. Plaid Cymru have always been the party with one foot in Government and one in opposition, and I believe the people of Wales will see through that and realise that a vote for Plaid is just another vote for Welsh Labour. Their motion is right to say that fresh leadership is needed, it's just worrying that they don't realise that they have been the ones that have enabled so many Government policies to come into being.

Let's be clear, a Plaid Cymru Government—[Interruption.] In a moment. Let's be clear, a Plaid Cymru Government is not going to reverse policies like the tourism tax or the 182-day threshold for self-catering properties, is it? And more worryingly, a Plaid Cymru Government is going to push for more powers, independence and the destruction of the United Kingdom, despite the people of Wales being against it. I will take an intervention.

Thank you for taking the intervention. I'm struck by the fact that you keep talking about how we need fresh leadership, as though you think that turning to the Tories would be in any way the fresh leadership that Wales would need, after the 14 years and all the damage that was done to our nation. Don't you take any responsibility whatsoever or have any shame about that?

Well, Plaid Cymru have spent most of their devolution journey propping up Labour, and look where that has got us: the worst educational outcomes in the UK, a broken health service and lacklustre economy. All on Plaid's watch. Plaid should be embarrassed that they're calling for more powers. They haven't been able to help Labour use the powers they currently have.

So, as I've said before, Dirprwy Lywydd, on the doorsteps of the communities that I represent, people are not raising the issue of further powers with me. The people of Wales want us to get on with the job of fixing our NHS, fixing our economy and fixing our education system, and the only way to do that is with a Welsh Conservative Government in power next year.

I call on the Counsel General and Minister for Delivery to move amendment 2, tabled in the name of Jane Hutt.

Formally.

Well, the Welsh Government has delivered and kept, which is not easy during 14 years of austerity. I’m really glad that the UK Government came into power last July and put money back into public services; it made a huge difference.

Here in Wales, we’ve got free prescriptions, free hospital parking and investment in a new medical school in north Wales, and we’ve grown training places for nurses and other allied health professionals, and bursaries for nurses, midwives and dental therapists, unlike in England. Free bus passes for the over 60s have been kept—six or seven years in England—and some £600 million has been spent during this Senedd term to support and retain bus services. We have the introduction of a progressive Bus Services (Wales) Bill to protect and sustain buses going forward, and significant investment in new trains, with passenger numbers increasing by 25 per cent, and our drivers and guards did not go on strike. We have a £100 weekly cap on domiciliary care and a real living wage for care workers. We have well-being hubs and a new orthopaedic hub being built in north Wales now to address those waiting lists, and waiting lists have been coming down over the last three months. Free school breakfast and lunch in primary schools—just been introduced now, in England, under the UK Labour Government. We have the second-best recycling rates in the world and that’s bringing businesses to Wales.

The education maintenance allowance has increased to £40, plus a generous support package—[Interruption.] I worked on that with Luke, actually; we did it together. We have over £2 billion in fantastic new school buildings and investment in childcare facilities, so that we have provision to deliver childcare, not just an empty promise. And £20 million recently to improve facilities for learners with additional learning needs; they're still dealing with a crumbling wreck in England, as they are trying to catch up. We have energy-efficient new social housing and Warm Homes grants for those under private ownership; grants for public buildings and sports clubs to be energy efficient; Welsh Government grants that have saved our community businesses all the time. We have significant funding to deal with flooding—coastal, as well as within our towns and communities—so desperately needed when dealing with climate change. It also includes a new golf club in Rhyl, which is really welcome.

The Welsh Government has stepped in when times have become tough, for example with the rise of energy costs, with a discretionary assistance fund, covering fuel vouchers and with a single advice fund being rolled out. We have tree planting and nature recovery programmes, where more than 4,000 green spaces are being created or improved for nature and growing food. Biodiversity jobs have been protected in local authorities. Theatr Clwyd has the biggest arts investment in Wales and will be so much more than a theatre when it opens in June. It would have had to close without the investment—

Will you take a short intervention?

Yes.

I agree with you about Theatr Clwyd: a huge capital investment, which is very, very welcome. But what they're telling us, of course, is that we could have the grandest theatre in north Wales, but without the revenue funding to go with it, what are they going to do with it?

Let me carry on about Theatr Clwyd—it will continue, because it's created 180 construction jobs and there will be 240 core employees there now, going forward, with referrals from Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board. They streamed panto into 60 care homes and hospitals. It's creating more apprentices in tourism and catering. And there will be a youth hub, a mother and toddler space, a Changing Places toilet, and special quiet viewing places for people with autism. That's just one example of investment in our communities, and changing them. It will be a huge employer for the area.

In Wales, we don't just have childcare, it's an enhanced wraparound care. There are baby classes offering baby massage, weaning breastfeeding. There are 30 hours a week for a more generous 48 weeks than in England for working parents and those in education and training.

There was a pay rise of between 5 per cent and 6 per cent for public sector workers. The young person's guarantee is helping 50,000 young people and delivering over 100,000 apprenticeships for this Senedd term; we now have almost half the number of young people in Wales compared to England. This is done through support, investment, encouragement and trust.

Animal welfare is hugely important in Wales, banning the use of snares, banning greyhound racing and introducing a new Bill for the licensing of animal welfare establishments, and resisting the cull of our native wildlife. 

Wales is different. We have an older, sicker and more rural population. So we need a Welsh Labour Government that puts public services as a priority and does not leave people behind, no matter what is thrown at them by various Governments, and that supports nature, animal welfare and the natural environment. I've got 15 seconds left for an intervention.

From me? Okay. I just wanted to come back on the childcare point. A recent report showed that we have the most unaffordable childcare in the whole of the UK. So, would you count that as a success?

My daughter lives in England, and she said that what's happening in Wales—because she has got friends in Wales as well; she's on the border—is so much better than what's happening in England. It really is. We need to invest more in childcare. I agree with that. But what we're doing in Wales, under the circumstances, is way ahead. We're investing in buildings; we're doing it gradually. It's not just childcare. It's more than that being offered here to parents, and it's more generous than it is in England. They can't deliver on what they've promised in England. There aren't the facilities.

We had a very long list there, Carolyn. In terms of some of Paul Davies's points, in terms of criticising consensual politics, well, that's how an expanded Senedd will be. That's how the people of Wales want us to be able to co-operate. Where we have been able to, we are proud of that. But also, when things have failed, we will call those out. That's what was disappointing in your list, Carolyn. There was no reflection of the fact that child poverty rates are worse. People were promised this change—that once we had these two Labour Governments working together, how transformational it would be. We see Labour MPs representing Welsh constituencies voting against things that we agree on here. So, how do you marry those?

The UK Labour Government has just been in place for less than a year. Child poverty rates are higher in Wales. We have a high level of deprivation, so more interventions need to be happening, as has just happened with our Welsh Labour Government, such as uniform grants. We step in, time and time again, to help—

Step in because consecutive UK Governments fail Wales. Labour MPs from Wales voted against things that would benefit Wales—things like the winter fuel payment. In terms of the devolution of the Crown Estate, Labour MPs representing Welsh constituencies—. That's what Welsh Labour means for people in Wales: promises that aren't delivered.

That's where we look at the amendments here today by the Labour Government. If I can focus on one specific aspect of the Government's amendments, namely the reference asking the Senedd to support constructive engagement between both Labour Governments to secure a fairer long-term funding model for Wales, the question I'd ask is: what constructive engagement? Does that equate with standing up for Wales? Because it hasn't been constructive to date, has it?

There's no indication that this is going to change, despite the rhetoric yesterday, despite the so-called partnership in power and despite all of the promises made to the people of Wales. While, of course, we agree that there is a pressing need for a fair funding settlement for Wales, I'd like to ask the Welsh Government today, do your Labour MPs here in Wales agree with this? And what about the Labour UK Government? Because every indication so far suggests not only a complete failure on the part of the partnership of power to move the dial on the case for reforming the outdated Barnett formula, but also a continuation of Wales being short-changed by Westminster.

The tone was set during the early days of the First Minister's premiership, when she claimed that she would be seeking a fair application of the Barnett formula. And unsurprisingly, attempting to squeeze fairness from a system that is fundamentally unfair has proved utterly counterproductive. It has given licence for Starmer's Government to shamelessly abandon any pretence of treating Wales with respect. Indeed, if anything, they seem determined to highlight how badly Wales loses out from our current funding arrangements.

Take, for example, the Barnettisation of Treasury reimbursements to cover employee national insurance increases within the core public sector. This was rightly described as a fundamental unfairness by the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and has left Wales facing a £65 million shortfall compared to England, further rubbing salt in the wounds of UK Government spending plans that have pummelled third sector organisations and are projected to leave Wales facing the lowest real-terms resource increase of all the devolved nations up to 2026.

Moreover, as was the case with the draconian cuts made to the welfare budget, this decision was made without any apparent prior consultation with the Welsh Government, with the objections of the Cabinet Secretary clearly falling upon deaf ears. So much for the positive change in inter-governmental relations we heard so much about in the aftermath of the general election. It just typifies the glaring double standards when it comes to Labour HQ's attitudes towards Wales, whether, as was referenced by Rhun ap Iorwerth, the haste to nationalise the Scunthorpe steelworks, compared to the inaction on Tata Steel, their refusal to enable Wales to profit from the wealth of our own national resources, the failure to provide us with a single penny of HS2 consequential or the contemptuous disregard for the compelling case for devolving justice and policing. 

So, I return to my initial question: what constructive engagement? Where's the actual evidence that the partnership in power is delivering tangible benefits for Wales and the change the people of Wales were promised? And if this is what constructive engagement looks like in the minds of the Welsh Government, the people of Wales who have previously voted Labour will justifiably conclude that voting the same way as they have done will not deliver the changes that are so desperately needed. Wales is short changed. Wales is refused the levers and powers that would transform our futures. Reject the amendments and vote for the motion as put forward by Plaid Cymru.

As we approach the final year of this Senedd term and look ahead to the 2026 election, we have an opportunity and a responsibility to reflect honestly and constructively on how we are serving the people of Wales. Today's debate on the performance of the Welsh Government during the sixth Senedd should be, in my view, a moment to take stock of what has been achieved, where progress has fallen short and how we can best move forward together. But, from what I see from this motion and all the others, which I will all be voting against, I don't actually see that.

The motion from Plaid Cymru rightly highlights many of the deep and persistent challenges facing Wales: ballooning NHS waiting lists, sluggish economic growth and widespread disillusionment with the political status quo. These are real concerns, and ones that we all hear about every day in our lives. But, with the greatest respect to Plaid Cymru, what it fails to mention is that you've had a seat at the table. For almost three years, you've been part of a formal co-operation agreement with Welsh Labour. You've helped to steer the ship, and you don't get to act surprised about the destination when you have actually been holding the map. [Interruption.] Could you make an intervention, if you'd like to?

I just thought it was important to highlight that you've literally just done a budget deal with the Welsh Government.

Thank you. I was expecting that. Three years from Plaid Cymru. I did one budget deal, which actually made sure that we delivered for the people of Wales; one budget deal that actually made sure that we didn't lose £5 billion—£5 billion—in funding. [Interruption.] May I carry on, because I've got something positive to say about Plaid Cymru? Why not—[Interruption.]

Let the Member finish her contribution, please.

Why not take ownership of what you've achieved? Why not talk in this motion about free school meals, a fantastic achievement, which has actually—[Interruption.] Would you like to make an intervention?

I was just going to say that I will, in a minute.

Thank you. Which has actually achieved real change for the children of Wales. So, why not, in your motion, talk about some of those achievements?

Turning to the Welsh Conservatives, your amendments, particularly the one that talks about child poverty, are shameful. You must acknowledge the part that your party in Westminster has played in causing child poverty. Let's be blunt: the two-child benefit cap introduced in 2017 by your Conservative Government was devastating, and organisations have said that it's the biggest single driver of child poverty in the UK. In Powys alone, we have over 1,000 children directly affected by this. So, spare us the crocodile tears, please. To claim that a Welsh Conservative Government would do better for our communities is, frankly, insulting. Your party has seen us pull out of the EU, where we've lost access to the single market, stripping Wales of £1 billion in EU structural and social funding, and left Welsh businesses drowning in red tape. Your party, as well, has repeatedly undermined devolution, resisted electoral reform and blocked efforts to give the Welsh public more control over their future.

I've got to turn to Labour, of course. For years, Welsh Labour have blamed every setback on Westminster, but now, with your own party in power, we see just how little influence you truly wield and how slow Labour have been to stand up for Wales when it matters. 

I think there has been progress. I'm proud of things like the universal basic income for our care leavers and the elimination of profit from children's care, and the ban on greyhound racing, of course—I've got to mention that. I welcome the long overdue introduction of proportional representation for the 2026 Senedd election. It didn't go far enough. There was a system that we wanted, and in fact Plaid Cymru also wanted, and we saw, sadly, the gender quota Bill jettisoned, which was quite shameful. But these changes show that, when we work together, the Senedd can deliver meaningful reform.

Let's not kid ourselves, though—we haven't yet gone far enough. I believe passionately that politics should be about solutions. The people we represent expect better than endless rounds of criticisms and defensiveness. They expect leadership, radical reform, humility and collaboration. We've seen, haven't we, only last week, how important it is that we are the adults in the room, that we achieve things together, stop blaming each other, and right now ensure that those hard-fought rights for our devolved Senedd are protected. We face a real threat next year, so let's all work together. The public deserve a politics they can believe in, one that owns its mistakes, celebrates real progress and gets to work fixing what's broken. We owe the Welsh public that, and nothing less. Diolch yn fawr.

Well, if there is one area where this Labour Government has failed the people of Wales in the most disappointing way—perhaps that's the word—then it's in the area of health and care. One in five of the population is on a waiting list. We have some of the worst cancer survival rates in the developed world. There are significant gaps in the workforce, from GPs to nurses, therapists, carers and others. The unacceptable, such as corridor care or lack of access to a dentist, has been normalised. Unpaid carers can't get respite, and full-time carers are on their knees. This is the legacy of 25 years of a Labour Government in Wales.

For a period of that time, this Labour Government has put the blame on the Tories of Westminster, but now, with Labour in power in London, they have cut winter fuel payments, increased national insurance contributions on the providers of these crucial services, and are to cut benefits to the most vulnerable, which will place significant additional pressures on our health and care services. That is to say, things have deteriorated. The bad has got worse faster.

Back in 2021, the Labour Government here promised a recovery in our healthcare system after the terrible experiences of the pandemic. But on every target that formed the basis of their care recovery plans, targets that were established by the current First Minister, it is clear, four years later, that their plans have failed, and that health and care services continue to suffer under the huge pressures of that failure to deliver.

We were promised that they would scrap two-year waiting times entirely, that they would hasten diagnostic tests, that they would improve the availability of appointments. These targets have come and gone and there is still no sign that they will be delivered. This should be considered in the context of the fact that over 55 per cent of the Government's budget is now spent on health and care, and that they have spent over £1.5 billion on waiting lists alone. And the upshot of that spend? Waiting lists have got longer by over 30 per cent, and the result of that is that every other area is squeezed in order to throw money at the failings of this Government.

As Rhun has already mentioned, a large part of the problem is the regular change in Cabinet members that we have seen recently. We have had three different Labour Members who have been responsible for this core brief in less than 12 months, and now there are six Members on the Labour benches who have been in this role at some point or another during their political careers. The inevitable upshot of this is a lack of strategic focus and leadership during a period of crisis in our health system, which becomes particularly apparent when we consider that every health board continues to be in some sort of special measures and the total failure to make progress on the crucial programmes to reform the care system and to take meaningful steps forward on the preventative agenda. Rather than taking a long-term view, what we've seen is falling back into bad habits of finding short-term solutions and a total inability to set out a vision for putting the NHS on a sustainable and a firm foundation for coming years, something that was highlighted particularly clearly in committee reports during the budget scrutiny.

Now, to be fair to the current Cabinet Secretary, it's true to say that waiting times have come down a little over recent months, and I truly do hope that he will succeed, in contrast to all of his predecessors, in leaving the job with waiting lists in a better place than they were when he took up the role. [Interruption.] I won't at this point, I do apologise.

But it's also worth emphasising that we have been here before. Back at the end of 2023, we saw a moderate reduction and boasting from the Government that they'd turned a corner, only a year later to see an even greater increase in waiting times, and record after record being broken for all the wrong reasons. Joyce.

What I'm wanting some explanation on—and thank you for taking the intervention, when others have failed—is how you think that some of the things that you've mentioned, quite rightly, as shortfalls, and recognise the failure of the funds to deliver it, despite the fact that this time now we've had £1.6 billion extra funding—? Can you explain yourselves as to why you voted against the budget that would have helped deliver some of this?

Thank you, Joyce. The budget wasn't ambitious enough for Wales, and that's the unfortunate truth. We would have put forward an alternative budget; that's why we voted against it. And the £1.6 billion that came, it did not come as a result of the work of this Government; it came as a result of Barnett consequentials because of spending by the Westminster Government on health in England. That's the truth of the situation. So, we voted against it because it failed in what we needed to see for the people of Wales.

The truth is that Wales has powers that we could use now in order to improve the situation. We have the ability to work better within the budget that we have, but the current Government is failing to do that. If we look at Scotland, where they have more powers to ensure fair funding for services, particularly care services, then it's clear that Wales isn't treated with the same respect as our brothers and sisters there. It's a necessity, therefore, to ensure, at a minimum, that we have equality with Scotland, and have a Government in power that is willing to stand up for Wales for once. That is why we have tabled this motion, and I urge fellow Members to support it. Thank you.

Plaid Cymru's motion today marks a year until the 2026 election. Since the last election, NHS waiting lists have exponentially increased, Wales continues to underperform economically compared to the rest of the UK, child poverty levels are on the rise, and our Programme for International Student Assessment scores in education are the lowest that they've ever been since we first participated in the assessment. And whilst it's true that so much in Wales has declined after 26 years of a Welsh Labour Government, I think it must have slipped Plaid's mind that they have spent most of that time propping them up. We're not even a year on from them ending their co-operation agreement with the Welsh Labour Government, and they've seemingly forgotten all about it. So, it would be only fair to take the opportunity to remind Members of how we got here.

During the 2021 Senedd election, we heard the then Plaid leader state that Plaid wouldn't be a junior partner in an agreement with Labour after the Senedd election in May 2021. Fast-forward to December 2021, they signed a three-year co-operation deal with the Welsh Labour Government. So, when we now hear Plaid wholeheartedly disagree with the way that Wales has been run over the past four years, let me remind them that they were part of that Government for three of them.

But we hear them now saying, 'Well, if only things were different. If Plaid had just a few more seats, then things would change forever.' But we know what would happen. However many seats they get after the next election, Plaid will end up doing some sort of deal with Labour. Do we really think that Labour with Plaid, rather than Plaid with Labour, will deliver any change for Wales? The two are inseparable, like two exes who can't just quite let each other go. No matter how many times they tell you they've moved on and they're over them, they always find themselves back together. To use the Gavin and Stacey analogy, they're the Pete and Dawn of Welsh politics. [Laughter.]

Three of the four years of this Senedd term so far will have involved Plaid being heavily integrated within this Government's work, yet this debate here today seems to lack any level of accountability, as if Plaid forget that the public know what they've done. We've had the worst educational outcomes anywhere in the UK, the longest NHS waiting lists in the UK, the weakest economy, and millions wasted on default 20 mph speed limits, a toxic tourism tax, hundreds of millions of pounds wasted on more politicians.

So, Llywydd, whilst I agree with the motion in principle, calling out the Welsh Labour Government's failures in the sixth Senedd, I don't agree with the bare-faced cheek of Plaid Cymru—[Interruption.] I'll bring him in in a moment. The bare-faced cheek of Plaid Cymru to table such a record when they're just as culpable as the Labour Party are for that record.

Thank you. I fear this is going to be a long year, but if you can't beat them, join them. If the Labour Government's record is so poor, why is the official opposition only polling at 13 per cent?

Well, if the record of the Welsh Labour Government is as great as it is, why is it polling at the level that it is?

Now, as Darren Millar said on Radio Wales this morning, it is the Welsh Conservatives that are the only credible alternative to run the next Welsh Government and to fix Wales. And we'll run a Welsh Government, unlike those two, that are fixed on the people's priorities. [Interruption.] 

No thank you.

I would like to hear the contributions from each Member, so please let the Member speak in reasonable silence.

They don't like the truth, Dirprwy Lywydd.

And we will run a Government that is fixed on the people's priorities, and that's because we're the only party with a plan to cut people's taxes, to cut taxes for business, to sort out our NHS, to put the evidence over the socialist ideology in our education system, to cut back on vanity projects, scrap plans for more politicians. I could go on and on and on, and I'm very happy to, but let me conclude by saying that it is only the Welsh Conservatives that have a plan to fix Wales—and unlike Plaid Cymru, we won't need to prop up the Labour Party to do it.

A Government's main duty is to safeguard the future of the nation for which it's responsible; indeed, we in Wales gave this duty a statutory footing.

In Wales today, more than one in three children grows up without the basics. Our children, cold, hungry, suffering ill health, missing out on life chances. A fair question to ask, therefore, is whether the Welsh Government has succeeded in its duty to safeguard their future—our future. Has that future and have these children been betrayed by a lack of courage, a lack of action and a failure by successive Labour Governments to eradicate child poverty? And yes, of course, the Conservatives and their austerity policies are so, so responsible for creating poverty and deprivation.

But given that other parts of the United Kingdom have also felt the effects of those repugnant policies, but have also introduced more effective and far-reaching policies to mitigate their impacts, then we must examine Labour's record here over a quarter of a century and more—a generation. It's a source of national shame that 32.3 per cent of children in Wales live in poverty, a figure that will increase further if there's no change in direction. A change of direction; we heard a great deal of noise about that yesterday, didn't we?

A lot of sound and fury signifying nothing.

Because the Labour Westminster Government has made it perfectly clear that there will be no change, despite their empty promises to voters last year, despite the spin here in Cardiff Bay. 'They're behaving like the Tories', was the view expressed on the streets of Wales in vox pops on Sharp End last night. Is this change of direction that we heard about yesterday from the First Minister credible? Scarcely believe.

No. 10 said immediately after hearing the speech by the First Minister, who is trying to ride two horses at once, that there would be no reconsideration of the cuts, for example, to fuel payments for pensioners. And what on earth were the tasteless and inappropriate references made to Gavin and Stacey? Comparing disagreements over decisions on welfare cuts that literally mean that people are going to bed cold, without enough to eat, concerned about the bills that come through the letterbox, with a comedy programme? We need to change the script, because the people of Wales are tired of hearing the excuses and the spin.

We have seen targets over child poverty being dropped and the creation of a strategy that doesn't include targets, which are exactly what would drive the policies needed to ensure that every child can reach their potential. Warm words instead of firm action.

The Labour Welsh Government has stood back while the Labour Government at the other end of the M4 has retained the Conservatives' cruel policies, like the two-child cap on benefits, despite knowing full well about the human and economic damage that this causes. We must remember at all times that it is political decisions that lead to child poverty, that deepen child poverty, so political will is needed to eradicate child poverty.

The Government, in its flimsy amendments today, boasts about delivering free school meals. If it weren't for the need to co-operate with us, that wouldn't have happened. Memory is short, isn't it? How many times were our arguments for this policy as an effective and essential way to ensure that school pupils had food in their bellies dismissed here in the Siambr? If you had been serious about tackling child poverty, you would have implemented such effective measures years earlier.

Why isn't Labour demanding the powers that are needed, such as those over welfare, for example, to deliver that fairer Wales that you always claim that you want to see? Plaid Cymru is ready to create anti-poverty policies like our Cynnal scheme, a transformative child payment, learning from Scotland, where a similar policy is already lifting tens of thousands of children out of poverty, because we must forge a different path in Wales if we are to fulfil that duty to safeguard and cultivate the future of our nation. The impact of policies like this permeates through our economy, our public services and our national well-being.

Wales deserves better. Our children deserve better. And in a year's time, the people of Wales will have a choice to choose a different path to a better future, and Plaid Cymru will be ready to serve them.

I'm pleased to take part in this debate. I'm very happy to talk about Wales as the second best recycling nation in the world. Tom Giffard and Julie James and I were taking part in a discussion with industry on this very subject, and because we are the world leader, the industry is coming to us, because they recognise us as the world leader, and that is a very interesting reflection. We are a small nation; it's very difficult for us to get the UK Government to give proper consideration to the constitutional settlement that we all need, whether we live in Scotland, Northern Ireland, Wales or the regions of England, but we certainly should celebrate the way in which Wales as a nation has embraced recycling, because we realise that we've only got one planet.

I'd like to celebrate the agreement with Plaid Cymru, which enabled us to deliver the free school meals, which I know the Cabinet Secretary for Education is very keen on, but like myself and many others, recognises that there is much work to be done to ensure that we get the best value out of that really important investment.

And I'd also like to celebrate the fact that we've given 30,000 young people the young person's guarantee, despite the fact that the UK Government at the time insisted on taxing us by clawing back whatever benefits they were getting as a result, which is a pretty shocking reflection on their priorities. But that will enable us to see that when young people get the right support, I hope, from the evaluation, they can thrive just as much as anybody else, despite all the adverse childhood experiences they experience.

We've introduced regulations to ban junk food, which is such a major contributor to the underlying causes of ill health in our nation. We've invested in mental health services and made them a priority, which is really a work in progress, obviously, but that is nevertheless a very important decision. The Cabinet Secretary for health, Jeremy Miles, has had a systematic approach to getting waiting lists down, and we can see the evidence, month by month, in how that is moving forward. We've got a women’s health plan, which at least puts women’s health on the map. Clearly, there's much work to be done, and it's not moving nearly fast enough—men wouldn't put up with the treatment that women have been given—but now we've at least got a stick to beat the system with, and to say, 'Our needs come first.' So, those are really fantastic contributions.

We have protected funding for advice services. That's incredibly important. When people are hit by changes in benefits, or indeed by the cost of living, they must have the best possible advice, free and available locally.

We have collaborated with our farmers to help us find the path out of—. A partnership approach for moving away from the basic payment scheme, which was inevitably going to have to be dismantled when Britain voted to leave the European Union. And compare that with what's going on in England at the moment, where farmers are pretty cross that they have not been invited to be part of discussions about what comes next to the scheme that they had established in England.

We have a clear planning framework for national infrastructure projects that gives certainty to investors on the boxes they have to tick before their application is ready for formal consideration. That includes all the important discussions that need to be had on environmental impact. And if you compare that with the rather muddled approach that the UK Government has towards trying to get the six big house builders to build more homes in England, I fear they have the wrong recipe for resolving the problem, but I wish them well.

I think it is significant that so much of Rhun ap Iorwerth and Paul Davies’s speeches were given over to their frustration with the actions of the UK Government, but we have to also not do Wales down. It's really dangerous if we say that our health services are on their knees when we really need to be speaking about the dedication of people saving lives. The emergency services—

Jenny, you need to conclude now, please.

—get browbeaten by people who have to wait to be seen, when in fact they respond really, really well when people thank them for it. Anyway, there's much to do, and the person who gets the prize for 'the most effective politician in this room' is Jane Dodds: £300 million for things that she was passionate about. I was passionate about many of them too, and I applaud that.

I call on the Counsel General and Minister for Delivery, Julie James.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd, and I'm delighted to have the opportunity to speak to our amended motion today, a motion that reflects not only the values of the Welsh Labour Government, but the grit and determination with which we have governed in the most testing of times.

It's perfectly clear that when we set our priorities at the start of this Senedd term none of us could have predicted the sheer scale of the challenges we'd face. We knew we had the lingering impact of a global pandemic, but the soaring inflation, the reckless Tory mini-budget after 14 years of Tory austerity that sent shockwaves through our economy, driving up mortgages, pushing food bills through the roof, and leaving families across Wales to pick up the pieces, who would have predicted that?

For years, we've been forced to govern in the context of deep austerity, mismanagement and short-termism from a Conservative UK Government that failed in every regard. But, Dirprwy Lywydd, despite all that, this Welsh Government has stood unwavering. We've protected our front-line services, we've prioritised our communities, and we've delivered on the Labour values that define us, because even when our budget has been squeezed, we've delivered.

We kept prescriptions free in Wales, one of many protections we fought for that people in England no longer enjoy. We've protected the education maintenance allowance for our most disadvantaged young people, recognising that access to opportunity should never be a privilege. We've rolled out universal free school meals in our primary schools, which mysteriously Plaid Cymru seem to have forgotten about, with no means testing, no stigma, just dignity and decency for every child, as it rightly should be. These aren't just the progressive policies of a Welsh Labour Government; they are lifelines—for our families, for our pupils, for our communities—and they are Labour's values in action.

Despite the enormous pressures after all those years of austerity, we are making tangible progress in improving access to healthcare and supporting the NHS to recover from the pandemic. The overall size of the waiting list has fallen for three consecutive months. Waits of more than a year for out-patient appointments have fallen by nearly 28 per cent from their peak in 2022 and the longest waits are now at their lowest level since June 2021, falling by 26 per cent between January and February alone.

It is worth repeating those numbers, because the constant talking down of the NHS by the Tories, and indeed now by Plaid, is something that we really do not need. What we need to do is applaud the strength of the workforce, applaud the ability of us to put that funding in, because of the funding put in by the UK Government to its NHS in England, and to make sure that we stand firm behind the NHS staff as we continue to work on it.

We have reduced delayed hospital discharges to the lowest level in over a year because our focus on the wider health and care system and flow is paying off, and we continue to drive this improvement to cut waiting times even further this year. Because of the new Government and this investment in the NHS, and because Jane Dodds had some political foresight, we have been able to make those investments. Plaid Cymru saw fit to support the budget all through the austerity cuts and then the minute we had some money, they decided not to—inexplicably. I am absolutely baffled by that as a way forward. We share a number of values; we could have seen those put into action. I am grateful to Jane for having secured that.

This is what delivery looks like, even in the toughest of times, after 14 years of the worst financial climate in the history of devolution. Right across our four core priorities—better health, more jobs, better transport, more homes—Welsh Labour is delivering, with tens of thousands of new jobs and apprenticeships created, with a green, fair economy at the heart of our industrial strategy, and major investment in public transport, from the south Wales metro to new rail links and bus reform, designed around passengers and our communities. We are building the homes Wales needs: social homes, energy-efficient homes, homes people can afford to live in and raise their family there. But, Dirprwy Lywydd, let's be very clear. The current funding model is holding us back. The Barnett formula does not properly account for our geography, our demography or our higher levels of poverty that we face, and the way it is operating is leaving Wales short-changed.

Wales deserves fair funding, and this Labour government, led by Eluned Morgan, will keep demanding it until we get a settlement that reflects our needs and respects our nation. But we do not go in for the gesture politics that Plaid seem to be advocating today. We go in for constructive engagement, grown-up politics and a shared commitment to co-operation, not division; not political games or empty gestures, but hard work behind the scenes, hard graft behind the scenes, lots of conversations, lots of asks, lots of standing up for the people of Wales, to deliver across our nations. We call for what is right for Wales. We always have and we always will. Eluned Morgan, our First Minister, set that out incredibly clearly yesterday. I know it has upset your discourse today, but she set it out really clearly, and she set out that together we can go further. With partnership and not posturing, we can unlock Wales's full potential and build that fairer, greener and more prosperous future for everyone who calls this country home.

So, today, I echo the First Minister in setting out that we want a full recognition of how far we have come, an honest account of the challenges we face, and a clear call for the fairer long-term funding that Wales so clearly deserves, because with continued co-operation and a determined political will, we can and we will deliver a stronger, fairer and more confident Wales.

I call on Rhun ap Iorwerth to reply to the debate.

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd, and thank you to everyone who has contributed to this debate. A year from now, Wales will be at a crossroads, which will provide the best possible opportunity for positive change for Wales. We will be in a reformed Senedd. We are giving new life to our democracy through that. We are asking the people of Wales to put their trust in that democracy. But there is also a new opportunity to redefine leadership for Wales, and Plaid Cymru is ready to provide that leadership. 

I'm grateful to the speakers across the political parties and from Government. To Jenny Rathbone: the Member said that she recognised the frustration shown by Plaid Cymru towards the UK Government in our comments today, but sense our frustration at the lack of frustration, the lack of condemnation, the lack of indignation shown by this Welsh Government at the actions of their Labour partners in Westminster when some of the most vulnerable people in Wales were being targeted. 

To the Conservatives: I'm grateful to Paul Davies and Tom Giffard for pointing out that Plaid Cymru has indeed been able to influence Government from opposition, and in doing so highlighted that the Conservatives have delivered precisely nothing in 26 years. They have nothing to show for a quarter of a century of representation in the Senedd. [Interruption.]

Thank you very much for taking the intervention. I wonder why the motion today doesn't mention any of the achievements, or so-called achievements, of the co-operation agreement that you struck with the Welsh Labour Government. Could it be that you're ashamed of those achievements?

I believe very much in the value of co-operation. Co-operation where common ground can be found is a positive thing in politics. Given that now we have two Conservative parties—the one represented here and the Tories on steroids, the Thatcher, Truss and Trump-supporting Reform—the Conservatives here have now, perhaps, their own bedfellows. But I am proud of having been able to deliver free school meals. I'm proud of having been able to deliver expanded childcare, to make a difference to people's lives in many ways through co-operation. But I say this: if we have been able to do that from opposition, just imagine what we could achieve leading the Welsh Government. 

We enter a new phase for devolution next year, with a refreshed Senedd. All of us fortunate enough to be re-elected or elected to that Senedd next year will have to continue to ask people to put faith in that democracy—something that we on the Plaid Cymru benches take very seriously. I know that's something that is felt across the benches here. But we have an opportunity at the same time for a fresh start for Welsh Government. As we have done today, we will set out over the coming year how Plaid Cymru can provide that new impetus that Wales needs on health, on education, on creating a prosperous economy, on tackling poverty and whilst building a more confident nation moving towards taking ownership of its own destiny—yes, being able to make the case to Westminster for the justice that we deserve as a nation. [Interruption.]

I've noticed in your speeches lately that you're not talking about independence. Could you tell me, is that still exactly what you stand for, and how you're going to pay for it?

Maybe I was slightly too cryptic. I will repeat what I just said: whilst building a more confident nation and moving towards taking ownership of our own destiny as a nation—a redesigned Britain, where we can stand up and make decisions that stand us in good stead as a nation. Yes, at the same time, as I say, we make the case—[Interruption.] Say the word 'independence'? I have always believed, lifelong, in independence for Wales. I believe in building a more prosperous future for Wales, and I ask people to engage in that debate on the future of Wales. Is that clear enough for you all? 

But I ask—[Interruption.] I've been talking about it all day, and yesterday, and the day before, and I will tomorrow, too. I'm just coming to an end. Lee. 

Thank you. I noticed that you've signed up as a member of the cross-party group on nuclear energy. Does your plan for a prosperous Wales include a small modular nuclear reactor in Cardiff?

In Cardiff? No. Plaid Cymru has a very clear policy that we would only support the development of nuclear where they already exist, and I think you know that.

In concluding my remarks, we are asking for a Welsh Government—and Plaid Cymru is offering a Welsh Government—that will stand up to Westminster for the justice we deserve. Labour has chosen in Eluned Morgan's time as First Minister to prioritise its own interests over those of Wales, regardless of what yesterday's last-gasp rebrand would suggest. We can have a fresh start. Plaid Cymru is offering that fresh start in a year's time. Please support this motion today.

The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There are objections. I will defer voting under this item until voting time.

And that brings us to voting time. Unless three Members wish for the bell to be rung, I will proceed directly to voting time.

I'm just checking everyone is online, because I'll only accept votes from those online if I can see them.

We will vote on item 7, the Plaid Cymru debate. I call for a vote on the motion without amendment. If the proposal is not agreed, we will vote on the amendments tabled to the motion. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 11, no abstentions, 35 against. Therefore, the motion is not agreed.

I call now for a vote on amendment 1, tabled in the name of Paul Davies. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 11, no abstentions, 35 against. Therefore, amendment 1 is not agreed.

I now call for a vote on amendment 2, tabled in the name of Jane Hutt. Open the vote. Close the vote. The vote is tied, and therefore as required by Standing Order 6.20, I exercise my casting vote against amendment 2. Therefore, there were 23 in favour, no abstentions, and 24 against. Therefore, amendment 2 is not agreed. As the Senedd has not agreed the motion without amendment, nor agreed to the amendments tabled to the motion, the motion is not agreed.

That brings today's voting to a close. 

That doesn't end our business, remember, please, so if you are leaving, please do so quietly.

The next item is the short debate, and I call on Sam Rowlands to speak to the topic he's chosen. Sam.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I'm very pleased to hold this short debate here this evening, titled 'Lost Boys: The crisis facing young men in Wales'. I'm pleased to be able to give a minute of my time to Sam Kurtz, James Evans and Russell George.

By all metrics, there's a crisis facing boys and young men across Wales. Boys and young men are more likely to take their own lives, they're more likely to have unstable work, struggle in education, and more likely to go to prison. UK-wide, since the pandemic, the number of males aged 16 to 24 who are not in education, employment or training has increased by 40 per cent, compared to 7 per cent for women. This equates to an increase of over 150,000 boys and young men no longer in education, employment or training, compared to pre-pandemic levels. Those are huge numbers, and every one is a life that's lacking meaning and direction.

It's worth noting there have been great strides for women and girls over the past decade. This debate does not seek at all to denigrate that progress, but I'm a firm believer that this is not a zero-sum game. We can get to a point where both young men and young women alike can achieve success and live fulfilling lives.

This debate was inspired by the Centre for Social Justice report 'Lost Boys' and was highlighted recently through various news channels, but also Gareth Southgate provided an important speech on this report as well. It outlines the crisis facing young men and boys of all backgrounds, but particularly those from working-class backgrounds. This crisis is leading to an entire lost generation, boys who turn into men having lives of despondency and listlessness. Not only is this a moral outrage, but one that has a direct negative impact on our economy and productivity, which help all of society. This all starts at birth and in childhood. Two and a half million children in the UK have no father figure, and it's not by chance that 76 per cent of children in custody say they've had an absent father. As the Centre for Social Justice points out, boys are now more likely to own a smartphone than they are to live with their father. As politicians, I think we've been far, far too squeamish about talking about family breakdown and of, particularly, fatherlessness as a reason for our lost boys. This is not at all, again, to denigrate single mothers, for example, who work incredibly hard and are often left in very difficult circumstances. It's to point out the simple fact that a stable parental relationship with a male role model as a father is one of the best starts that any child can have in life.

Without this early formative role model, other influences can too easily creep in. A study by Fitzsimons and Villadsen that used a sample of over 6,000 children was published in Social Science & Medicine and found that paternal departure during childhood is associated with an increase of internalising problems such as depression in children and, importantly, with the addition of increased externalising symptoms such as aggression for boys. Furthermore, researchers at Warwick university found in a study of more than 24,000 adults that individuals who were brought up by a single parent earn 30 per cent less and are 9 per cent less likely to be in a romantic relationship. There's so much more that we should be doing to support families to stay together and for fathers in particular to play an important role.

In the education system, too, there are serious problems. In Wales, boys consistently underperform girls in expected outcomes in the main subjects. This gap is nearly 8 per cent in English and more than 8 per cent in Welsh. Not only are the outcomes significantly different, but polling from Civitas says that 41 per cent of sixth-form boys and girls have been told and taught in school lessons that boys are a problem for a society as part of an oppressive patriarchy. Boys are being told that they are the problem, despite the fact that they are underperforming their female counterparts. Boys are much less likely to go to university. According to the Education Policy Institute, about 36 per cent of 18-year-old girls in Wales went on to higher education, with that figure just 24 per cent for 18-year-old boys as of 2022-23. If these statistics applied to any other subset of people, I believe governments would be up in arms. As it applies to boys, many of whom are working class, come from post-industrial parts of Wales, it seems all too easy for them to be overlooked. 

When these boys become men, the problems that have accrued over childhood sadly don't stop. Sometimes they worsen. Men are three times more likely to take their own lives than women, with overall suicide rates in the most deprived areas double that of the least deprived areas. We all know that males are more likely to commit crime, but our young men are disproportionately likely to be the victims of violent crime too. In 2022-23, 71 per cent of homicide victims in England and Wales were male, with the most affected group being those between 16 and 24 years old. Crime is rife across the country with gang membership and an increasing reality for far too many every day. We know that gangs deliberately target children and force them to commit crimes. The CSJ's criminal exploitation report identified 89 per cent of the people that this happens to are young boys. And we know the internet, too, has exacerbated this situation. Easy access to the internet through mobile phones has revolutionised the world we live in. Young men and boys have easy access to all manner of people and things online. This increases social isolation when they go down rabbit holes on the internet.

So far, I've laid out some of the paths that lead to some terrible outcomes for far too many boys and young men. But it's interesting what the Ben Kinsella Trust, a knife crime prevention charity, has to say on this topic. They asked the question, 'Do you know the No. 1 currency of gangs?' And they answer it with one word: 'belonging'. The No.1 currency that gangs hold is belonging. Boys without male role models are turning to lots of places to find something to fill the void and, too often, that void is filled by poison. Rather than helping them become men, it puts them in a tailspin, destroying the chances they have of healthy relationships and a healthy life. Not only can it put them at risk themselves, as the Internet Watch Foundation data shows, it can corrupt them in far too many other ways. The increasing availability of horrific, violent content online and hardcore abusive pornography is distorting young men and their view of relationships forever. The children’s commissioner in England found that the average age that children first see online pornography is 13, with one tenth seeing it at nine years old. This, in my view, is horrifying and should deeply worry parents, and I believe we're now starting to see some of the impacts of young men, children seeing these things online.

But let’s consider this issue of belonging. Boys and young men who lack a male role model from birth and who are told at school that they are the source of many problems, and who struggle to get adequate employment when they reach adulthood, of course are going to be vulnerable to finding belonging in areas that we would see as bad. Boys and young men have a longing for meaning—they see a family, social and political fabric that’s been fraying for decades, abandoning boys and young men from swathes of post-industrial Wales and Britain. And instead of wanting them to be on the straight and narrow, of wanting them to prosper, it seems that far too many are finding belonging in the wrong places. Boys and young men in Wales have so much to offer, so much to offer their families, their communities and society at large, and we should be doing all we can to support them in doing so. I believe that, as politicians, including the Welsh Government, we have a role to play in turning the tide. I firmly believe that we can do this and it should be done on a cross-party basis. We have to first of all recognise the challenges that I’ve laid out, the challenges that are often difficult to talk about around family breakdown, around fatherlessness, around influences, particularly online. It’s in all of our interests for men and boys to succeed, and I hope that this short debate goes some way to kickstarting the discussion and much-needed action. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

James Evans. We can't hear you.

Can you hear me now?

Yes.

Grand. Thank you, acting Presiding Officer. 

I think we need to stop pretending, don’t we? Young, white, working class boys in Wales are not privileged; they’re the ones being left behind, and people in this Chamber know it. Boys from our poorest communities, especially white boys, have some of the lowest attainment rates in Wales. Just 15 per cent of those boys who are on free school meals go to higher education. There’s only one ethnic group in Wales, which is Gypsies and Travellers, that actually achieves lower results than them in school. And in some areas across Wales, that’s even worse. These lads aren’t failing; it’s the system that’s failing them. Yet, these kids are consistently told that they’re the problem, they’re being blamed for all society ills, they’re labelled as privileged. Well, they struggle, as Sam Rowlands has said, with poverty, fatherlessness, mental health issues and a total lack of opportunity. These kids are not privileged but they’re invisible to institutions that are there to help them.

I ask the Welsh Government very clearly that we need to stop blaming our boys in Wales. We need to invest in apprenticeships, in mental health support and in real jobs. We don’t need more pilot schemes or empty strategies. Working class boys in Wales built the society we have, they built the country we have and they need better from the Government than to be abandoned and blamed. I will say clearly to the Welsh Government: you need to do more to support our boys across Wales, because they are being let down and this Government needs to do more.

Thank you, Sam Rowlands, for bringing this forward this evening. And there were some harrowing statistics in that report. But one thing that struck me—. Two things struck me, and the first point was around single mothers, single parents. I was raised by two parents, both of whom were raised by single mothers, and I couldn’t have asked for a better foundation to my childhood by having two strong parents, but I know that that’s not afforded to every child in Wales, and we need to discuss that, we need to talk about that.

But the second point that you raised was around belonging, and is it any wonder that these young men, impressionable men, children, are finding that belonging—? If we’re continuously telling them that they are wrong, that they are the cause of problems, that they are at fault, is it any wonder that they are finding belonging in things that are criminal, and in these organisations that are wrong, that are troubling? And that belonging can be flipped. Think of the good work that a lot of charities and youth movements and organisations do in providing some belonging—that sense of belonging—for young individuals. I have to advocate for not just the young farmers, but Scouts groups and sports clubs as well. There are social mobility tools that they provide to young men, giving them that sense of belonging, be they boxing clubs, cricket clubs, young farmers groups or scouts groups or anything else, where young people feel that sense of belonging and a sense of pride in going out and achieving. Some of the very best young farmers that I know have come from non-farming families and, because of that, they have really sensed a feeling of belonging to a movement like the young farmers, and for them it has been a development pathway.

Yes, we can look at the negatives around the educational attainment levels and things like that, but, sometimes, success can be measured in different ways. I think that success for some of these young white men is the sense of belonging to something other than criminal gangs. Put them in something like a good boxing club or a young farmers or Scouts group—anything like that—and give them that sense of belonging, that sense of pride, and I think that that would really move some way forward. So, that's my plea to the Welsh Government: let's not underestimate the value of these organisations, like the young farmers, like the Scouts, and everything else that I have mentioned. They have a real role to play in the development and sustainability and support afforded to these young men who, unfortunately, for the last 20 or so years, have genuinely been left behind.

Can I thank Sam Rowlands for bringing this topic today and discussing the 'Lost Boys' report? It is a very important topic, and I thank him for choosing this for debate. Sadly, some years ago in my own constituency, in the Newtown area, there was a really significant increase in young men taking their own lives—older teenagers, young men. As a result of that, there was an initiative that was set up, which I would want to highlight today, called the Walking Men of Mid Wales. And that brought together—not as a formal charity, just as men meeting up together—young men, teenagers, meeting up together on a Friday evening at 7 o'clock, every other Friday, and they would just walk together. When I joined those, what struck me is that often you would see perhaps older teenagers—19-year-olds, 18-year-olds—walking alongside retired men, perhaps in their 70s. They didn't know each other, but this brought them together for discussion. And that is something that has been going for several years now, and I know that it also extended at some point as well into Welshpool. But I would encourage any area to consider this initiative. It's not set up as a formal charity; it's very loosely structured and loosely organised. But it is really important, I think, to make sure that those young men have got the opportunity to speak to older men, and vice versa as well.

I call on the Minister for Mental Health and Well-being to reply to the debate—Sarah Murphy.

Thank you very much, and I really want to thank the Member, Sam Rowlands, for bringing forward this topic to the Chamber. The Centre for Social Justice's 'Lost Boys' report highlights some key issues and challenges facing boys and young men across the whole of the UK. It is comprehensive and very timely, in my opinion. It very much breaks down and articulates many of the things that I think we are all seeing, and really puts it in a very understandable way. It also highlights where there is research where we can draw conclusions. And it also calls for caution where there remains an absence of evidence, of which there is in some of these areas as well. It also addresses, as Sam Rowlands pointed out, some uncomfortable and often taboo subjects, which are necessary if we really want to understand the realities for boys and men today. For example, I was really interested to see that it does address child and adolescent to parent violence and abuse, CAPVA, which is very misunderstood and hidden still. But it's something that is happening within our communities and we should discuss more.

I work, of course, very closely with our Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice on many of these issues. And, of course, the report does set out the impact of social and welfare issues. These are all the wider determinants of health, which we know can impact on mental health and are known risk factors for suicide and self-harm. The policy drivers and actions that can make a difference to these wider determinants sit outside of mental health and well-being, and sometimes, also, beyond the powers of this Government.

I really appreciate you talking about the fathers, sons and families and the impact that that is absolutely having on the mental health of young men. I also wanted to say that I work very closely as well with the Minister for Children and Social Care. We have very much a families first ethos in Welsh Government in everything we do, and those first 1,000 days. I introduced you last week, Sam, to Mark Williams, who, through a petition, has now started off the journey that we have towards a pathway specifically for fathers, and their perinatal mental health as well. I think that all of these things, starting in those first 1,000 days, contribute to many of the issues that we're seeing.

In raising awareness of their impact on mental health and well-being and the role they play in suicide and self-harming behaviours, I am going to focus on driving this approach, of course, across all Government portfolios, so I will focus most of my response on those two strategies, which have been released in the last month. It says in the report itself that we must always listen to exactly what men are telling us, and young boys, and restore the hope for the next generation, and that's what we're trying to do.

As you said, unfortunately, suicide rates are highest in men. The highest rates are in middle-aged men—it's slightly lower in Wales, actually, the age, than in England. Although the latest Office for National Statistics data shows there have been increases among children and young people over recent years as well. We're not looking away from that. I'm completely aware of this. The number of children and young people experiencing poor mental health is rising across the whole of the UK. Boys and young men are less likely to access psychological therapies in school or elsewhere, and less likely to present with self-harm in hospitals as much as girls. And what we don't know and can't assume is that boys and young men are not impacted as much, especially when we know that more men take their own lives. Instead, we need to focus on how we can understand more about the unique issues men and boys face and how we can encourage them to seek support and ensure the right support is then available to them. I have spoken to many men, my friends, and in my own constituency who have told me that, when they have found that courage to speak up and seek support, there was nothing there for them. This will absolutely not continue. 

I am determined we will provide easy-to-access, person-centred support for everyone who needs it, and, increasingly, make that support available on the same day when people want it. We have already started. We have the '111 press 2' service for urgent mental health care, and it is a really good example of easy access, same-day support. Four out of the 10 callers are men. 

And then I also set out, in the new mental health and well-being strategy—. It makes an ambitious commitment to same-day support, and that service across Wales, as well as focusing, then, on the cross-Government preventative action around the risk factors and wider determinants, and also focusing on breaking down stigma, which can be such a barrier. Too often, people who self-harm have suicidal ideation, abuse substances or have poor mental health, and avoid or delay discussing their issues because of the fear of being judged or labelled, because they are worried about scaring or upsetting others. This self-stigma then deters people from accessing timely support, so we are committed to understanding more about this stigma, why and how it occurs, through evidence and research. We won't just stop at understanding. We will take preventative long-term action to ensure that the right support is readily available.

We are working as well on the next steps to engage with men and boys to create safe spaces where they can talk about relationship problems, coping mechanisms, emotional regulation and problematic behaviours. Many of you mentioned the third sector; I absolutely agree. It is the groups that are on the ground that really understand and provide that—[Interruption.] Sorry? Yes, if I am allowed. Of course.

Just talking about those groups, I just wondered, putting your hat on as the constituency Member for Bridgend, whether you would take a moment to reflect on the work of Lads and Dads, who I met with when I was a councillor in Brackla, and I know you have as the Senedd Member for the area. I know they do great work, and I'm sure you will want to put on the record as well the great work they do.

Thank you so much, Tom. I absolutely will. Actually, when I said there that it's men who have said to me, 'You told us to speak out, and when we came and when asked for help, there was nobody there', that is a direct quote from Rob Lester from Lads and Dads. They are the ones that talk to me and tell me exactly what's going on, exactly what's working and exactly what isn't. I completely agree with you. Lads and Dads are absolutely superb, and they really do inform a lot of what I'm doing in this role, truly. So, thank you, Tom.

The third sector is so key to all of this. They are then woven into the mental health strategy that we have, and they are going to play a key role in that. I've also been working closely with the Minister for Culture, Skills and Social Partnership about the role sports can play in bringing people together and supporting one another, as well as the positive nature of physical activity on mental health and well-being. I think, also, that real sense of belonging that we talk about comes very much through being in clubs and teams.

I'm working with the Cabinet Secretary for Education on the implementation of the whole-school approach to emotional and mental well-being, which seeks to support good emotional and mental well-being by promoting a cross-cultural environment in schools. I wanted to say that I can only touch on a few things this evening, but I do think that I particularly would be very interested in having more of a discussion, because it truly is a very, very good report. There’s a whole section in this on technology and pornography, for example, about social media, sextortion, child sexual abuse and exploitation, artificial intelligence, gaming—there are so many other things here that really are happening on a global scale, and that we really need to be able to understand.

I also just wanted to end, I think, by saying a quotation that is from the foreword of the report itself, and it says:

'This report, Lost Boys, is not just an exploration of the challenges young men face but the beginning of a journey to offer a hopeful, positive vision for masculinity in Britain. We need strong fathers, mentors, and role models. We need a culture that values the unique contributions of men and supports boys to grow into good, responsible adults.'

So, I think we can all get behind that. We're doing parts of this across all of Government, but I actually think today has been a real start, maybe, of digging in a little bit more, now, to those more taboo, complex, difficult-to-understand issues that, when you have a young man, I think, in your life, you're aware they're happening, but it's really difficult to talk about. So, I hope that we can see this now as taking it to the next level in the discussions that we have. I echo you, Sam Rowlands: this is not a zero-sum game here. This is about ensuring that everyone in our society is thriving, is not left behind and is not suffering in silence or unseen. Diolch.

That brings today's proceedings to a close.