Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru

Prynhawn da. Welcome to the Equality and Social Justice Committee. We're a bilingual institution, and translation is available instantly from Welsh to English. We have one Member who's had to send his apologies, Mick Antoniw, and no substitute for today. Are there any declarations of interest from any Member? I see none on this matter.

This is our first full evidence session on our revisiting of the fuel poverty issue in Wales. I'm very pleased to welcome our four witnesses in the Senedd: Jonathan Cosson, chief executive officer, Warm Wales, Ben Saltmarsh, head of Wales for National Energy Action Cymru, Steffan Evans from the Bevan Foundation, and Hannah Peeler, policy and funding officer for Care & Repair. Thank you, all of you, for submitting your papers in advance, which is really helpful for us.

I'll just kick off the questions, if I may. Speaking first of all to Jonathan Cosson, we've seen really clearly from the NEA paper that—. Well, perhaps I'll come to Ben Saltmarsh first: from your paper, we can see just how the problem of fuel poverty has massively increased, from 14 per cent in October 2021 to 45 per cent just in April 2022—obviously, after the invasion of Ukraine and the rise in prices. Does the current data that we're using, or that the Welsh Government is using, actually reflect the gravity of the situation here, in terms of the numbers of people involved who are simply struggling to heat their homes at all?

I think you're absolutely right to point out that really sharp increase, as you say, from 14 per cent to an estimated 45 per cent. What was particularly concerning for us, when those statistics were published in April of 2022, was that, as you say, up to 45 per cent of all households in Wales were estimated to be in fuel poverty, but that included virtually all of our lower income households by Welsh Government's estimates, so 98 per cent of them—that's 217,000 households, by Welsh Government's estimates—and over four in 10 of those were estimated to be in very deep, severe fuel poverty.

So, fuel poverty is a very wide issue, potentially, currently, in Wales, but it's also a very, very deep one, and it's also something that varies by region. So, back in 2018, the national average was just 12 per cent—still a huge problem, of course, but you can see the sharp contrast then, when it went up to 45 per cent in April 2022. In 2018, when the national average was 12 per cent, it still varied greatly, depending on where you lived. So, if you lived in Ceredigion, the average was 21 per cent; if you lived in Gwynedd in north Wales, it was 23 per cent, and that's when the national average was 12 per cent.

We haven't had local authority level fuel poverty estimates for some time, largely in part because the data that the Welsh Government's fuel poverty estimates are based on is modelled, and it's modelled on the Welsh housing conditions survey from 2017-18. There's meant to be a Welsh housing conditions survey, I understand, every five years; it's now eight years old and three years overdue. As a result, the modelling that can take place can only go so far. So, you get a national picture, but you can't drill down to a local authority level one. We urgently need a new survey and updated fuel poverty estimates.

Just to come back to the gravity of the situation, though, I would say that we still think that those 45 per cent estimates are very, very relevant. In April 2022, that's when the average price cap was at £2,000 a year; like for like today, it's at just over £1,800 a year, so things haven't changed that much since energy bills were at £2,000 a year. As we know now, they're heading into the winter—they've just gone up 10 per cent in October and are going up another 1 per cent in January. Couple this with the fact that we have the oldest and leakiest housing and that the costs that we face are much higher in Wales too, it's a really difficult situation for people. 

Okay. Just turning to Jonathan Cosson, we heard from two of your colleagues last week who set the scene for all of the work you're doing to enable anybody to pinpoint exactly where the worst, coldest homes are, and yet hardly any of the local authorities seem to be taking up the offer to cross-reference different bits of data, so that you can clearly see where the worst are. Because we were shared some graphs that were really useful for being able to identify exactly where people ought to be chasing households that are, obviously, suffering. And I just wondered if you could tell us why most local authorities are not engaging with this work.

The biggest feedback we get from local authorities in terms of the Foundation Data for Robust Energy Strategies for Housing vulnerability mapping was the cost, and it being prohibitive. So, we've explained and presented how the FRESH mapping scheme works to a variety of local authorities across Wales and the south-west of England, and we had quite a good uptake and a lot of interest from both local authorities, housing associations, the likes of Welsh Water and utility companies, but it was the cost that prevented the local authorities from investing into the FRESH data mapping. So, we took a decision internally to try and offer that out at a discounted rate to as many local authorities as possible. Five or six took us up on that, but, out of the 22, there's still the vast majority that are underutilising the opportunity to get the data mapping that would really pinpoint and highlight deprivation, poor housing stock and ill health. 

But yet—. They shared with us exactly what it costs, and it's small change—

It is, absolutely.

—for a local authority. So, what is going on here? Why is there such resistance to such a crucial issue for the well-being of communities?

I don't know if there's resistance; it's a degree of apathy, perhaps, in terms of either they think the local authorities can do it internally themselves, or getting to speak to the right person within the local authority, whether it's the housing department, or whether it's someone within health, and whether local authorities internally are speaking to one and other to understand the opportunities that Warm Wales, through the FRESH mapping, could offer. Likewise, we've spoken to Welsh Government and presented at numerous times to representatives with yourselves, but we haven't had take-up from Welsh Government previously as well. So, it's a combination of factors, I believe.

Okay. Well, hopefully this inquiry will help everybody address this matter. I wondered if we could now hear from Steffan and Hannah. How effective are the targets the Welsh Government is setting itself in its plan for tackling fuel poverty? I don't know which of you wants to go first.

I can go first. Just in terms of when we're looking at a picture of fuel poverty and then have to assess how accurate and effective the targets are, I do think it's important, as Ben mentioned, that a lot of the data that we use as a basis for understanding fuel poverty, obviously predates cost of living, Brexit, our energy crisis, COVID-19, which has not only had a massive impact on household income and the ability to pay bills, but also on households' and individuals' ability to keep up with the maintenance of their home, which then impacts how someone is vulnerable to fuel poverty.

We know that, from Care & Repair's perspective, people do not have the income they once did to be able to keep up with general maintenance of their properties, which, obviously, makes them more susceptible to being in fuel poverty. So, within one year, we've had about a 130 per cent increase on relying on charitable funds to be able to pay for home improvement works for our clients, and, obviously, not having your home to a good standard of repair means they're draftier, leakier and less energy efficient, and a lot of our clients are living in really inefficient homes. So, some recent work that we've done is we've looked at a client sample of around 2,500 of Care & Repair clients to assess the energy performance certificate data, and about 82 per cent of our clients either live in a home with no EPC or a low EPC. So, in terms of how effective is the Welsh Government, I think that's a really key thing that Welsh Government needs to do: actually look at the energy efficiency of properties and be able to work towards that.

Okay. Steffan, in your paper, you, obviously, state really clearly that the Warm Homes programme isn't sufficient to address the scale of fuel poverty and the expectation that 11,500 homes would receive adaptations over a seven-year period, and that that pace of works would only lead us to having finished the job in the year 2160—long after we've all departed this mortal coil. So, how is it possible that we are setting ourselves such a low bar for such an important issue?

I think there's a combination of things. So, first we need to be realistic about what powers the Welsh Government have in this space. When we talk about fuel poverty, the focus in a Welsh context often ends up being on energy efficiency, because that is within the gift of Welsh Government to act on. But, of course, the other factors, as we've seen with what happened post the invasion of Ukraine, are that costs matter a lot and people's incomes matter a lot. Both of those things are largely outside the control of Welsh Government, and therefore that inhibits, I guess, what can be done in that space, but maybe isn't something that we discuss enough. When we're talking about fuel poverty approaches we often talk about the energy efficiency in its own space rather thinking about it in that broader context.

But there is that scale point as well. If we have these targets to reduce fuel poverty, to get rid of fuel poverty, then the investment has to follow. And as you pulled out from that written evidence of ours that just isn't there at the moment, and we are not going to reach those targets. One of the things, possibly, that I know Ben and others have spoken about is also the lack of interim targets as well. We've got these longer term targets that allow these things possibly to drift for a period of time, whereas if you had the shorter, more interim targets, there would be an opportunity to reflect, possibly, on whether the investment we're doing are delivering the change we want to see. And that's possibly missing from the conversation at the moment as well.

Okay. Did you want to add something, Ben?

I think, on the interim targets, that's a really key point. In addition to being head of NEA Cymru I also chair the Fuel Poverty Coalition Cymru, of which we're all a part, and the coalition has been calling for interim targets since the consultation on Welsh Government's current tackling fuel poverty plan, which runs from 2021 to 2035. It's worth noting that it's actually a statutory obligation on Welsh Government to specify interim targets and have target dates for achieving them. And we were very concerned when it was published in 2021 that, essentially, it has three end targets, all for 2035, which at the time were 14 to 15 years away, and, ultimately, having three non-statutory targets for 2035, that would ultimately span 15 years and three Senedd terms with no interim milestones really risks not driving the sustained and necessary action to meet the scale of the challenge that fuel-poor households across Wales face.

So, we have worked closely with Welsh Government and the fuel poverty advisory panel that it chairs to call for interim energy efficiency-based targets to be introduced and developed as soon as possible, as Steffan said, because that's a clearer pathway to 2035 that sits within Welsh Government's gift. It provides a vital opportunity for all of us to be able to review their progress towards those targets. Particularly when you have limited resource, you need to make sure that you're spending that money in the most effective and deepest impactful way possible, as well as to help them meet their statutory obligations. It's our understanding, through our involvement with Welsh Government's advisory panel, that a new action will be included in its updated tackling fuel poverty plan to develop and introduce energy efficiency-based targets, but I don't believe those actions have been published yet.

Have you any idea when they're expected to be published?

This was the year that it was due to be updated.

This year.

Yes. 

So, we've still got three weeks or so. Okay. Can we move on now and can I bring in Jane Dodds?

I don't mind starting. My understanding is it doesn't compare particularly favourably. I think the situation in Northern Ireland is potentially as bad, but the energy market is very different in Northern Ireland. The greatest proportion of homes are off-gas and often dependent on oil and liquefied petroleum gas fuels, which aren't regulated, and the prices can change very quickly. That's also, of course, true for large parts of west Wales and north Wales and mid Wales as well, as you'll know very well, Jane.

I understand that the UK Government, I think, publishes annual fuel poverty estimates. The Welsh Government has a commitment to publish them biennially, so every two years. The last ones were published in April 2022, and, again, this was the year for them to be updated. So, I don't know if we are to expect updated fuel poverty estimates in the coming weeks or perhaps in 2025, but it's obviously very key that we do receive biennial fuel poverty estimates and for those to based on robust data, rich data that allows you to understand the national picture across Wales, but also the picture in the various local authorities. But NEA, National Energy Action, estimate that 6.1 million households across the UK are likely to be in fuel poverty currently. 

Go ahead, Jane. 

Steffan and then Hannah. 

I will talk, firstly, from our experience trying to help deliver the programme on the ground, as to whether the Nest aspect of the Warm Homes programme has been effective. And then I'll go on to talk a little bit about the key differences between the two different Warm Homes programmes. Firstly, for us, particularly for our demographic of clients—so 60 plus—since April it has been relatively ineffective. There's been a really stark difference in the number of people we've actually been able to refer into the scheme from Care & Repair. Within the previous scheme, we were one of the top referrers into Nest throughout Wales, and now we have a dedicated fuel poverty service called Older Not Colder. Since April we've made, I think, fewer than 10 referrals into the scheme, so we have been struggling to access that for clients. We understand that it's been summer and maybe some initial snags with the scheme, but we just haven't been able to access it for clients as we were previously able to. So, yes, just from the data that we have available from our fuel poverty service, Older Not Colder has made seven referrals from April until the end of September. If we try and do a comparison with the same six-month data from last year, we made about 60 referrals into Nest previously. I know they obviously are very different schemes, but for our demographic of clients it just hasn't been working so far.

So, that leads on quite nicely to that important difference between the new Warm Homes programme and the old Warm Homes programme. As Steffan said, the difference is there very much is an emphasis on talking that fabric-first approach. We're a home improvement agency and we know that taking that fabric-first approach is the most effective way to get people out of fuel poverty, and it also sits mostly within Welsh Government's remit to be able to do that, and we welcome that. I think maybe the problems that we've been having is there's very much been an emphasis on fabric first, and not really maybe taking the person and how they live in their home into account and what's the most suitable option for them. So, feedback that we've had from our caseworkers and our home energy officers is that I think the scheme, since it started in April, has not looked at the person and how they manage in their home and what the most suitable option is. It's looking at how we can make changes to put low-carbon technology in. 

I'll give a really quick example—we did have a case in Carmarthenshire, which I think shows this quite nicely. A woman, she was in her 80s, was visually impaired—she had received measures from the new Nest scheme, she had an air-source heat pump put in. She contacted Care & Repair because she couldn't get her home above 18 degrees with the air-source heat pump. As far as our caseworker was aware, she didn't have any insulation measures under the scheme, so from the client's perspective, she felt that the work hadn't been adequately explained to her, and I think there were obviously some extra vulnerabilities there, due to her being visually impaired. So, it did end up that she did resort to buying electric heaters to keep her home warm and, unfortunately, this did result in a really challenging situation for our client. So, you know, I think it feels a little bit maybe counterintuitive, sometimes, that this scheme has put something into a vulnerable person's home and she can't get that home above 18 degrees. The Welsh Government recommendation is that, for people with vulnerabilities, they need to keep their home well above that—maybe more towards a 21, 23-degree mark. So, it's been difficult, I think, for us, to try and find solutions for our clients right now, this winter, for them, and we do see it seems to be that that's the main difference for us there. Thank you.

Okay. Ben, you wanted to—?

Yes. I think I'd echo a lot of what's been shared. The Warm Homes programme is Welsh Government's flagship programme

'to tackle fuel poverty and will also contribute towards achieving a net zero Wales'. 

And that's a quote from the Welsh Government's policy statement for the new programme. It's worth noting that Nest, the demand-led scheme, is meant to be part 1 of that programme, but it's also the only part that is currently operational. It went operational in April, albeit a year late, as you'll know. There have been some very welcome changes, as other panel members have said, to that programme. So, for example, ineligibility—that has been expanded and widened. It's been expanded to those— . It's focused on those who are worst affected first, so those on the lowest incomes living in the least-efficient homes. In terms of income levels, it's been extended beyond the hard edge of means-tested benefits, to include those that might be in work but on a relatively low income. So, there are thresholds that they can fall within. It includes health and a recognition of the health conditions that people may suffer with that would be exacerbated by the cold. It's taken steps to ring-fence disability benefits, so they're protected fuel disability living needs, and they're not counted towards the income and might see you tip over and outside of the eligibility. And it also allows for multiple and repeat applications, which is very welcome. So, if you've had support in the past or you have support today, you can reapply again in the future.

In terms of measures, the big criticism, or one of the big criticisms, of the scheme before, despite the fact that it invariably helped many, many households—and that is worth noting—is that, at some point in the previous iteration, it had changed track slightly and largely became a boiler replacement scheme, to the extent that about 94 per cent, 95 per cent of all the measures that were installed were boiler replacements, which left only about 5 per cent for insulation, as Hannah was saying. So, very little to do to upgrade the fabric of people's homes and make them much warmer and greener and healthier places to live.

When it did do insulation, it was predominantly loft insulation and draught-proofing, so it didn't touch cavity walls or solid walls, to the detriment of people living in rural areas as well. And we understand now that, as Steffan was saying, the budget per home, the threshold that they're able to spend per household, has been significantly increased, so that you can insulate the home, because we're talking about the least-efficient homes in Wales occupied by the most vulnerable people, and you can put photovoltaic panels on their roofs and you can support them to heat their homes going forward. The challenge we've had fed back from organisations like Warm Wales and Care & Repair, and lots of our other partners across Wales at our fuel poverty forums, is that it seems to us that, unfortunately, over the first six months of operation, if a home has been identified as eligible and goes through the process of seeking measures, and if it's determined that that home is not suitable for a heat pump, either because it's technically not possible in that particular home, or, at this moment in time, it would push that household deeper into fuel poverty because it would increase their running costs, then, by the sounds of it, it's turned away. And that's not okay, because it's left people, potentially, with no heating or hot water. Now, some steps have been taken in the last few weeks to rectify that, which are very, very welcome, and we may be coming to this at some point, but it might be worth just talking to that as well. Because it's imperative, of course, that if somebody doesn't have working heating or hot water, we don't then leave them without that, as well as also making sure that we're insulating their homes and making them much warmer places to live.

We'll hear from Jonathan first.

I think it's financial. The Nest scheme is for £30 million per year. If we compare that to the likes of ECO, which is worth £1 billion a year, there's a massive difference between the two schemes. Warm Wales alone has levered in between £60 million and £70 million into Wales just by delivering ECO, which is vastly bigger than the Nest scheme on its own. So, the budget for the Warm Homes programme needs to be increased. I think it's a budgetary driven problem. And the fact that the opportunities are there. Like Ben mentioned, we've got the worst housing stock in Wales. We need to improve the stock of properties, improve the energy efficiency, and the way of doing that is by investing in the schemes themselves. And we need to up the money. We talk about a fabric-first approach. Great—that's what we should be doing. We need to insulate the properties. We need to look at low-carbon technologies. But if we've only got the budget for doing 1,500 properties a year, it's the scale, like Steffan mentioned. We're talking generational problems that aren't going to be solved by doing 1,500 properties a year. That needs to be vastly improved.

There's one thing we didn't talk about previously. We talked about the numbers of referrals coming into Nest vastly dropping off a cliff. We've gone from, say, 300 a year to, since April last year, around about 20, but the actual on-the-ground problems with Nest are evident as well. When my call workers call into Nest, we get vastly different information depending on the person that we speak to. We find situations where my staff are actually talking through the eligibility routes with the Nest members of staff because they don't know the scheme themselves. And I don't know whether that's because they're not retaining staff members and there are new staff members coming into the scheme all the time, but people are missing out on the eligibility. The home owners aren't getting the assistance, and that's because the people within the Nest scheme don't necessarily know the eligibility routes themselves. So, the goalposts are changing for everybody continuously, and it's depending on the case worker we get what success we get in terms of an eligible application through the scheme. So, there's a series of problems. One is budgetary. One is on-the-ground knowledge of the scheme within the scheme itself. And thirdly, it's making sure that the right people get the right assistance in the right property.

Is there somebody else who wants to answer?

Yes. Ben Saltmarsh wanted to come in.

Thank you. It's only just to note as well that the scale of the programme, as we've said, is a huge issue. I think there are opportunities, though, to scale it up significantly. The UK Government has just announced its Warm Homes plan—almost identically named as our Warm Homes programme. To kick-start that in the first three years, it will be investing £3.4 billion into that programme, and that should result in quite a significant consequential for Wales. We estimate that consequential to be in the region of £170 million. If that £170 million was invested in the Warm Homes programme over the next three years, you'd almost triple the investment in the scheme. So, there are opportunities to significantly increase investment in this programme, as well as to maximise the other opportunities that are available through other UK-wide schemes and to bring that into Wales, like the energy company obligation and others like it. 

Thank you. Sioned Williams, would you like to come in?

Hang on. I think Ben Saltmarsh wanted to comment, and Julie Morgan. Do you want to ask your question first?

Diolch. Prynhawn da. I just was a bit concerned when I heard Jonathan say that the officials who were actually dealing with the schemes didn't know the details of them, because obviously that is a fundamental flaw in the whole thing. Are you just saying that from an anecdotal point of view, or have you got some systematic evidence that this is happening?

Yes, I've got evidence. I haven't got anything with me today, but yes, we come across this frequently. It's not a one-off situation. We are referring to Nest as frequently as possible. Like I mentioned, it depends on the caseworker whether we get a successful outcome from it, or not. We're advising the Nest caseworkers on the eligibility routes to get people through the scheme. That's a constant situation that we find ourselves in. 

That's very concerning. Does Care & Repair have the same experience? 

Yes, absolutely. I just wanted to echo the concerns that Jonathan has had in Warm Wales. We've very much had similar situations with our Care & Repair caseworkers across all our agencies in Wales. It doesn't seem to be located in one particular place. We've had examples where a client has been told, 'No, you can't have any insulation.' And then a caseworker has gone back and double checked with Nest and then another Nest adviser has said, 'Oh, no, actually, I think you might be able to get something.' So, there has been a little bit of miscommunication in terms of what exactly is available on the scheme and what's available for our clients, which I think is particularly difficult for older people. It means that people become mistrustful of the scheme, and then not just mistrustful of that scheme but mistrustful of the sector itself and making those energy efficiency improvements that our homes desperately need. So, I just wanted to reiterate that we have also had a few examples of that across Wales. We've also had examples of lost referrals—so, where a referral has been lost, we've chased it up and then we have to go through the system again. And again, that makes our clients feel very anxious about having any sort of measures to their home, because it is a lot of upheaval, and it's a bit thing for someone to go through. So, I just wanted to say that we've also had that experience.

An additional point to that is the timescales it's taken people to get through the Nest scheme. We put an application through, and we're waiting six months to hear whether or not that application's been successful. One of my staff had a situation, probably about three or four weeks ago, where an application had gone through, they'd been waiting for six months to see whether or not they'd been successful. In the meantime, that home owner, who's already in crisis and in a vulnerable situation, took a loan out to pay for the measures without us knowing. Now they're in debt with a loan. And then subsequently, we found out they would have been successful with Nest, but because of the six-month timescale, and the lag in terms of the applications going through, it's meant that that home owner has now found themselves in a more precarious situation than had the scheme been flowing like it previously was and we were getting outcomes in a number of weeks.

Just to echo some of what Hannah just said as well: I think she's spot on. It does affect the reputation; if done poorly, these schemes not only adversely affect some of the most vulnerable households who might otherwise been missing out, as Jonathan's just outlined, but it also affects the reputation of the particular scheme that we're talking about, be that Nest or ECO or whatever else, as well as just the reputation of all energy efficiency schemes in this space. I'm sure we've all heard stories of where things have gone wrong, and it does have an impact on households' confidence and trust in this space.

It's really worth thinking about all of this in terms of the opportunity, though, that we have here, because if this scheme truly takes an eligible householder and insulates their home and makes it a much warmer place to live, and then ascertains if they've got working heating or hot water already, well, can we put you on a low-carbon heating source now, like an air-source heat pump, and is that appropriate, yes, fantastic, so we're also decarbonising your home, providing all the advice and support around it, or if not today, we've otherwise made it heat-pump ready for the future, or if you don't have working heating or hot water, repaired and replaced their boiler now to make sure they do, as well as insulating their home and making it heat-pump and low carbon ready for the future, there are huge benefits to these schemes in terms of people's health and well-being, their thermal comfort, and the increased capital value of people's properties, employment, carbon emissions, air quality, as well as savings on energy bills, which at the moment people are in huge debt to.

They're not just trying to pay for this winter, they're paying for the winter before and the winter before that and the winter before that. Ofgem at the moment estimate that £3.7 billion-worth of energy debt is owed by households just for gas and electricity across Great Britain. Three quarters of that is arrears and money that people owe that is not yet on a repayment plan and the average amount that somebody in arrears owes to their gas or electricity supplier is £2,875. That's more than a year's worth of supply, even at today's record prices. So, we have an opportunity here to reduce the amount you need to heat that home in the first place and really lift households out of fuel poverty in an enduring way.

To come back to Sioned's question, it's vital that committees like yours regularly and routinely scrutinise the work of the Welsh Government in this way, and that the schemes have robust monitoring and evaluation, not just to report on how many households have we helped, but what have you done, what measures have gone in, what difference in outcome has that had, what impact has that had on those households, but also what's the take-up been like across all of the expanded eligibility criteria, or if actually people have dropped out, or when in the stage have they dropped out and why, was there a good reason for that or was something going wrong along the way. Because ultimately, there's a limited pot of money, as Steffan said, and we need to make sure that it's having the biggest impact it can.

Somewhere in all the evidence, I saw that if you're on universal credit, you're not eligible for this scheme anyway. Is that accurate?

I don't believe that's accurate. I think you would be. I don't know where that was from.

Okay, all right. I was trying to find it. But if that's not the case, good. Sioned, back to you.

'Whilst we are keen to help as many customers as we can, we do not want to move away from the decarbonisation aims of the programme so we'll not be advertising the boiler replacement directly in general Nest communications at this stage.' 

I'll take the second bit first, if I may. So, in terms of the concern about whether it returns to a boiler replacement programme, no, I'm not concerned about that. I think it's fundamentally very different from the previous programme. For those households that don't have working heating or hot water, we need to do something about that urgently, and this scheme now, as it's now designed, I understand, will repair or replace that boiler, whilst ensuring they still go through the scheme as normal and insulate that home. And then, if it's been repaired, they can also ascertain whether it's suitable for a heat pump today, or if not, do that at a later date, and, as I mentioned earlier, the opportunity to repeat on multiple applications allows for that phased approach, as I understand it. If you've just repaired the boiler, then, no, you are not going to put a heat pump in tomorrow after you've just invested in a brand-new boiler, but you have otherwise made, through the insulation and fabric improvements, that home as heat-pump ready as possible in order for them to then have a heat pump in the future. That's entirely in line with Wales Net Zero 2035 Challenge Group recommendations.

To your first question, and others may want to come in on this too, I'm sure, there is a concern, I believe, amongst our partners and others that if this approach is not known, then you risk, obviously, people missing out on that support. My understanding is that communications have come from Welsh Government and the Energy Saving Trust to all its referral partners to let them know of the change, but I don't know if it's Welsh Government's intention to advertise the suite of measures that are available to a household or a Nest. So, it may just be that it talks to heating, insulation and solar PV, and whether somebody would know, as a householder, that that would include boiler repairs or replacements is very much up for debate, I think.

Okay. Hannah and then Steffan.

Thank you. I would just agree with what Ben said, and I think, firstly, we really do welcome that the eligibility for the crisis route has been expanded. That's going to be a really important tool for people that don't have any heating or hot water working this winter. One of our concerns is that it is still only for gas boilers. We know that Welsh Government is working on making this for alternative fuel types, but we don't know when that will quite be yet. I think about 35 per cent of homes in Ceredigion, for example, are on alternative fuel types. So, that is something that will need to be addressed in the scheme.

Just on that as well, I don't think the scheme is driven by people with broken boilers as it was before, and that, overall, we do think, is a positive thing. One thing for us is we do have clients that might not be at that crisis level of having neither heating nor hot water, but are still very much living in inefficient, draughty homes. A lot of our clients have health conditions, disabilities, caring responsibilities and other vulnerabilities that mean they need to be living in warm homes, and one thing that I think needs to happen is we need to think that we can make the home heat-pump ready, even if the individual isn't ready for that heat pump. So, we can get them up to being well insulated whilst also providing immediate support for them as well.

So, I think one thing that the scheme does need to consider, and I've mentioned it before, is it does need to take that person-centred approach. With the installation of low-carbon technology, it can be a really complicated thing, and for a lot of our clients, we need to think whether that is the appropriate and suitable thing to do. For a few of our clients with health conditions like dementia or frailty, installing an air-source heat pump would just be inappropriate for that person. To use it correctly, you have to have it on all the time to work effectively. For our clients who are a bit older and are used to maybe rationing their energy, that can feel really counterintuitive. So, we do think that homes, as was said, need to be brought up, need to be insulated well, but that immediate support does also need to be provided.

Can I just come in here, Sioned? In your paper, you provide countless examples of people who said they're not ready for heat pumps of one sort or another, but then they're denied insulation. How common is that and why is that happening?

Yes, that has been a concern for us. So, there are two main concerns: a home isn't suitable for the air-source heat pump and they've then been denied. That's one issue. But then the other issue that we've been seeing is that, for whatever reason, personal circumstances, our client just doesn't feel like an air-source heat pump, it's inappropriate, and, as Care & Repair, we would probably agree with that. We've then had it, as this comes back to, maybe, issues on the ground, where we've then rang back up and they've said, 'Oh no, you can have insulation.' So, I don’t know why that is happening and I think we need to have assurances that, as we continue on in the scheme, people will be able to receive insulation. I don’t know whether it's because, maybe, if you don't have the low-carbon technology, you can't get your home into the carbon-reduction targets that are in the scheme. For the current scheme, I know that there are carbon-reduction targets in the scheme, so I don't know whether that might be a factor as to why people are being denied insulation if they don’t want the heat pump, because it's not hitting those carbon-reduction targets. That, maybe, is an example I can think of, but it is something that's been happening; we've had multiple reports of it happening not just in one area, but in various areas in Wales.

Okay. All right. I think Steffan wants to come in, and Jane, as well.

Yes, I was just going to come in on the first part of Sioned's question. I think the failure to promote the scheme is going to undermine that crisis route—it's inevitably going to undermine it. The risk is that there is someone, this afternoon, sat cold somewhere who might be able to get this crisis route, get a boiler replaced, who just doesn't know about it, because that information isn't publicly available. So, that's a concern in itself. And there is, perhaps, little wonder that there's this confusion about eligibility and who is able to get what through the scheme if we're all being told stuff through meetings that we're able to go to, et cetera, rather than having this stuff in the public domain, because that then gives a common understanding point that we can all start working from. So, I think there are two reasons why that decision not to promote that element of it is a concern and it's something that I think needs to be reflected on.

Okay. Can we bring in Jane Dodds?

I think that's probably a 'no'.

I don't think so, in a co-ordinated way. It's also something that people may have unfortunately been living without for some time, and I'm sure Care & Repair and Warm Wales have met, sadly, numerous people who actually haven't had working heating or hot water for years, and that is an awful and grave situation. We also know that it's something that could just go and break down yesterday, and obviously then people need help to respond to that. But, fundamentally, there are an awful lot of people who are living in one room, they're heating one room and they're eating one meal a day, and that is very, very worrying.

And some of our polling, and I know the Bevan Foundation's polling too, has highlighted lots of concerns that even if people have working heating or hot water, they simply cannot afford to run it and they are rationing their energy. I think that our polling found that, ahead of winter, when it was conducted in early September, 51 per cent of all adults in Wales were likely to ration their energy this winter. Some of whom will no doubt do that, potentially, to the detriment of their health and well-being. And even in the summer months over June, July and August, many have been making significant cutbacks: eating cold meals rather than using the oven and not having baths or showers to reduce the use of hot water. And I think these are circumstances that Care & Repair, Warm Wales and Citizens Advice and lots of other organisations across Wales see day in and day out, sadly.

Sioned, back to you.

I don't mind—. Did you want to go? You go.

Yes, I'm happy to take that one. I think the fact that the threshold has been increased is a massive positive, and the fact that we can really do a whole-house approach—truly do a whole-house approach—where you're looking at the fabrics and the low-carbon technologies. I think the £30,000 threshold is realistically sufficient.

And one thing I've got to say about Nest in terms of—. I mentioned ECO earlier and the fact that we are levering in a huge amount of ECO money. The fact that Nest is delivered through one single body, with British Gas and Centrica doing that, means that the quality assurance of the scheme and the workmanship that's been going into Nest, I think, has been massively successful, whereas if you compare that with some of the issues around ECO4 and Flex, we're seeing a huge number of properties that have massive snagging issues and poor workmanship. So, you've got to be commended, in the sense that the actual workmanship that's happening within Nest is very, very successful, whereas maybe we're doing a far greater volume within ECO, but we're having massive problems in terms of the quality and the workmanship further down the line.

Is that because the drivers for ECO are coming from private companies that, obviously, want to raise business, whereas—?

Yes, absolutely. There are two routes into ECO: you've got ECO Flex, which is managed by the local authorities, and you've got the home heating cost reduction obligation, or HHCRO, means-tested benefit side of things, which is a bit more open and a total open market. So, we're seeing a lot of work going through that channel, which is causing major problems down the line, because we've got companies operating from all over the UK coming into, perhaps, rural locations in Wales, because there are massive opportunities there because of off-gas rural properties, detached farmhouses and the like. They're doing the initial work and then disappearing back across the border, back into England, with very little ability to call them back to fix a problem.

If they're working through the ECO Flex route, and they're on the frameworks for the local authorities, then we've got a bit more power to challenge them to make sure that they come back and do any remedial work that needs to be done, because they need to stay on that framework and we've got the power to kick them off. So, that side of things is working, but it's still not to the same level and success that we're getting through the Nest programme. It's the scale of the Nest programme that is the frustrating thing; it could be so much bigger.   

Okay. Hannah, you wanted to come in.

I would agree, and I'd say that I think that in Nest it's really positive that you've split up the delivery advice and then the monitoring. I think that ensures that you have that loop of accountability and you're able to follow up with work that has been done. So, in terms of the work that has been done, I don't think, as Jonathan said, there is an issue with the workmanship and the work that has been done.

Again, I'm going to reiterate things that Jonathan said in regard to ECO4. Obviously, the Nest scheme does leverage into ECO4, and it might refer people on to ECO4, which we think is important, because, obviously, Nest has a limited amount of funding and it's important to not leave someone with an onward referral, so if we can refer people into ECO4, I think that's a good thing.

But, as has been mentioned, there really is, we've found, a lack of accountability in ECO4 work. So, we've had, again, multiple instances where there has been poor workmanship from ECO4, and a client's home has been left in poor condition, whether that's an incorrect installation or damage to a home. We've seen a number of things, and our technical officers who work for Care & Repair, they usually have a building background or a surveying background, and they can't find any redress for these clients—they can't find any way to solve this problem for them. So, if our technical officers, who are experts in home improvement, can't find any redress, how are people who are left who haven't contacted us able to cope and able to find that accountability?

So, yes, I would agree: I don't think, necessarily, there's an issue with the workmanship of Nest, but I think, as Nest is using ECO4 and leveraging ECO4, there is just that lack of accountability when things have gone wrong in the scheme, which goes back to points we've made around people then becoming more mistrustful of the sector.

Okay. Sioned, can Julie come in again?

Just to follow that up, do you mean that things can go wrong and then people are actually left with the financial consequences or other consequences, and there's no way of doing anything to help them? 

Yes, so, we've had a couple of examples where there's been an incorrect installation or the property's just left in quite a bad condition. Just to think of an example, we had one recently where an air-source heat pump was installed through Nest. The pipes that go into the home need to be well-insulated for it to work properly, and they weren't—they had no insulation on them, so the air-source heat pump didn't work. Then it's the issue of trying to get that contractor, who I think came from Liverpool, to come back and be able to fix that, and it's being going on for around 11 months, having back-and-forth with the ECO4 contractor. The local authority doesn't take any accountability, so it is very much a contract between the home owner and the contractor, and it's very much a lengthy and difficult process to try and get any redress for that. That's the experience we've had. 

Just to add to that, if there is a problem in that sense, TrustMark is the consumer body that tries to fix the issues. There is a consumer body that is trying to work alongside the agents and the home owners, but they're a very small organisation swamped with work, so the pull-back and the timescale for that to be rectified is considerable.

Okay. Sioned, did you have any further—?

Yes, sorry. I might have misspoken; it was ECO4.

I don't mind touching on this quickly. To answer that, no, I don't think we have the supply chain in Wales to be able to offer enough work to be able to put those heat pumps in. It's quite a technical process. So, we work with—. Each local agency has a list of trusted contractors that we've worked with before to be able to do home improvement works, and I don't know from the top of my head if we have any that we know of that are able to do air-source heat pump installations, which I think is why we're seeing a lot of contractors coming from outside of Wales and into England, and it then becomes very difficult for us to be able to step in, because we haven't worked with that contractor before and we don't have that relationship. So, from the feedback that we've had from our technical officer and our caseworkers, there definitely is a skills gap in regards to being able to install low-carbon technology, and also the information and the follow-up for aftercare as well, I think that's quite limited. I do still think there is a limited understanding in general of how to use an air-source heat pump effectively. It does require a huge behaviour change, and I think there is a lack of providing people with the adequate support they need to be able to use that properly; that is something that we've found, yes.

Okay. I'll bring you both in, but air-source heat pumps apart, what about the evidence from Citizens Advice in Denbighshire that says they can't find people to do insulation? It depends, obviously, on the type of the property as to what type of insulation, but it seems pretty basic stuff. Insulating everybody's home needs to be done effectively. Steffan, do you want to start?

Yes, I was going to say this is actually probably part of the broader problem in terms of the skills in general. We've got a project going on in another area looking at how do we deliver social housing, which we badly need, and a concern that's coming up all the time in that space is around the availability of staff, and in particular in that sector as well— it's not just in the private sector that we're looking to improve the energy efficiency of homes—there's a lot of work expected to be done around the Welsh housing quality standard and decarbonising that sector. So, there's probably a need to take a step back from just focusing on it in the context of this programme and actually thinking in the wider terms in terms of how do we develop that workforce. 

I know there is some good work going on that we've seen in Adra housing association, for example, in Gwynedd, who have developed a centre of excellence with young people in that area to try and upskill them, but we need to be thinking more strategically at a Wales level on this, I think, not just in the context of this programme.

To follow on and echo Steffan there, one of the surest ways to help develop the supply chain is to come back to the scale of the problem and the funding and have that long-term commitment. Taking ECO as an example—because we've spoken a lot about the scale of the Warm Homes programme, and we mustn't forget that's also part 1; there hasn't yet been part 2 or a wider-area-based approach, which we haven't had since 2021 when Arbed closed—ECO is a huge opportunity to try to maximise that funding, which, as Jonathan said earlier, far surpasses that of the pot of the Warm Homes programme in Wales. We need to ensure that local authorities are adequately resourced to do so, but there's still clarity needed over the future of ECO as well. That's currently due to end in March 2026, and unless the UK Government comes out and says, 'Well, this is what will happen post then', what always happens is that supply chains end up receding, there's nervousness about the surety of the funding going forward, so they end up downsizing, which means that you lose further skills, there's a huge drop-off in installations, and, even then, if that funding comes back again, there's a huge lag and drop-off in the interim where people then end up missing out on the support. So, long-term funding, adequately resourced, will help build supply chains going forward.

Okay. Thank you. Can we move on to Julie Morgan, please?

Thank you very much. I was going to ask about contracting and monitoring arrangements, and I think we've already touched quite a bit on this, but the Auditor General for Wales's 2021 report did highlight a variation in the cost of the same measures between Nest and Arbed schemes, and also identified ways to improve scheme contract management. So, do you feel that these issues have been addressed in the contracting arrangements for the new scheme?

I don't mind starting; there'll be organisations closer to it. I don't know if we can tell. I think it's too soon. There have been questions asked in Plenary about the number of installations that have been made, and I think the response, essentially, was that it's too soon. And I think, in terms of recent questions that Members of the Senedd have asked, the response largely has been, 'We're undertaking a six-month review of the programme at the moment and we'll come back to you.' So, I don't think, from any publicly available information, we can tell what the monitoring and evaluation requirements of the new programme are like, beyond what was stated in the Welsh Government's policy statement, which was to say that it will be much more robust than the previous iteration.

Julie, you were right in that you mentioned that Audit Wales report, and that was quite strong in its concerns about the previous scheme, and questioned the reliability of some of the reported outcomes. I know in the previous version of Nest and Arbed it wasn't routinely checked as to whether the householder who was eligible was in fuel poverty before or indeed after the intervention. That was something that was rectified in Nest, but I don't think was ever addressed necessarily in Arbed. And there were also concerns that there was some artificial deflating of energy performance certificates in order to allow people to qualify in the first instance. So, my understanding of that is if I were to apply and I had a boiler that wasn't working, my property might, say, be an EPC D, and, if my boiler wasn't working, it was as if I didn't have gas central heating in the home and so I had much more expensive electric heating, which maybe means that, artificially, my EPC was then an E or an F or a G. I then had a boiler repaired or replaced, and then I went back up again, but to the point I technically started at, because no insulation was installed and things.

So, I think it's very important that the monitoring and evaluation is very robust, but I don't think, from publicly available data, anything is known about how the new Nest scheme under the Warm Homes programme has fared in its first six, seven, eight months of operation.

Right. Anyone got anything to add to that?

No, I think Ben summarised it well.

I will just say as well that we have—ourselves as Care & Repair Cymru, and also, I know, a couple of our local agencies have—asked for that information about progress on the scheme, and, as Ben says, we haven't had anything back as of yet. So, yes, we can't massively comment on how that scheme is progressing and monitoring, because we just don't have that information yet.

Yes, fine.

Can I—? I think what we would like to see, maybe, certainly as National Energy Action and maybe as a coalition as well, is that the monitoring that does come out doesn't just talk to the number of people served and supported, like I was saying earlier, but can reference what impact has this had on households' energy bills, what impact has it had on carbon reduction and carbon savings, what has the take-up been like across eligibility criteria, where are the referrals coming from. It's a scheme that's available for owner-occupiers and those who privately rent. But, if I'm correct in saying, it's heavily, heavily weighted, the Nest scheme, in terms of people taking it up, to those who are owning their home as opposed to those who privately rented. So, maybe there's a piece of work that needs to be done to ensure take-up is much greater in the private rented sector across Wales, as well as things like the customer journey, and, if people are dropping out, then why, and is there something we can do then to support them and things. So, it would be good to see that be quite holistic in its evaluation every year, and for that to be public.

Yes. So, basically, you're all saying it's too soon to give a view on the contracting and the monitoring arrangements.

I think so.

Thank you.

Thank you. Joel James. 

Thank you, Chair, and thanks ever so much for coming in this afternoon. I just wanted to touch upon, actually, Ben, you mentioned there about Arbed and how we haven't had a scheme now since 2021, and I know last year the Minister, in her policy statement about the new Warm Homes Wales policy, didn't specifically outline a successor to Arbed, but did mention that there was a desire to create these sort of small-scale, area-based schemes. I just wanted to get some idea of what you all think that should look like, if that makes sense, and what sort of interactions have you had with the Welsh Government to try and push it?

Who would like to start?

I'm happy to. So, I think, firstly, it's really important to note that the successor to Arbed and a place-based approach does need to come with additional funding attached to it. I think that's a really key thing to note firstly, otherwise, as I said, we just won't be able to get to the scale that we need in order to retrofit the housing stock that we currently have.

I think one thing that's really important, and I hope that's come through today, is decarbonisation is difficult for the individual living in that home, and I think that's why it's important to take into account local partners that might be able to provide that hand-holding advice when you're offering that retrofit. We have a huge demographic of people in Wales with lots of different needs, and one approach. It's not a one-size-fits-all approach to a retrofit. As I said, you need to look in to that person, how they live in their home and how they manage, and I think lots of local organisations like Care & Repair Cymru, but many others, do have that, we are able to hand hold and we are able to take someone through that retrofit process and maybe provide that aftercare and that advice. Obviously, we do need that upskilling and that training as well, so it comes back to supply-chain issues. But I think that one thing that we would like to see, in a new Arbed scheme, is how we can provide that very much holistic approach to retrofit, and look at the person in their home and what is the most suitable option for them.

Yes, to jump in, I think an area-based scheme is vital. We've talked about the number of properties across Wales that need upgrading. If we're doing a pepper-pot solution through a Nest type of approach, we're going to be here, as someone mentioned earlier, for 100 years. When you do an area-based approach, where we can get volume, (1) it's cheaper, (2) we do it quicker, and (3) we do more properties. And then, alongside what Hannah says, we need follow-up work to make sure that those people in the property are assisted. So, when an air-source heat pump or a PV system is put on to that property, rather than just a simple handover document, which is what they receive at the moment, there's a bit more in-depth support, so follow-on work, so they're actually taught how to use that technology in their property better. Because, as soon as that contractor leaves, they've got that new technology, they've got no idea how to use it, and then the majority of fails is because they've changed the thermostat, the optimisation of the system has failed, and they need someone to go back in to actually teach them how to do it. So, going back to your comment, Joel, yes, we need an area-based solution as quickly as possible, with increased budget, like what Hannah mentioned.

Has the Welsh Government given any idea of timescales or—?

We haven't been in contact with anyone about it, no.

Oh, okay.

And I'm not sure if any more is known about the part 2 from what the policy statement said 18 months ago. So, that might be an action for Welsh Government, under its latest version of its tackling fuel poverty plan, when it publishes the latest actions, the short-term priority actions, for the next two years. And we would support what Jonathan and Hannah just said: it brings economies of scale; advice and support and aftercare is absolutely essential. There's an opportunity to ensure that it's also targeting those worst-affected areas that might be worst affected in terms of fuel poverty and the depth of difficulty in those areas, poor energy efficiency. But it's also an opportunity to potentially think about how you could target some underserved communities that might otherwise miss out on some of the support that these kinds of otherwise pepper-pot demand-led schemes might fail to reach, for whatever particular reason. There might also be an opportunity to revisit those that have actually had energy efficiency measures in the past but, unfortunately, they've completely failed, and that community's trust in this space is at a record low. And, obviously, it needs to be complementary to the demand-led scheme, funded by a separate pot—because what we couldn't do is, obviously, take funding away from what is already an underfunded demand-led scheme in Nest, as we've mentioned—with robust monitoring and evaluation, as Julie was talking to as well. And it might be an opportunity to make sure that there are, obviously, grants available for fuel-poor households that are eligible to receive those measures. But, whilst you're in those areas, invariably, I'm sure, the scheme will come across people that are at other income levels, and that's where the opportunity of things like Green Homes Wales and loan schemes may come in—not for the fuel-poor households, but it's good to have an offer to make sure that those households can also access those improvements at the same time.

Yes. And just to add to that, I guess one of the points is that the application process needs to be as simple as possible. I think, anecdotally, one of the concerns that we heard about the previous iteration was that you still had to go through the application process et cetera, and, actually, what you may have ended up with was people who may not necessarily have needed that support, but, because they could navigate the system, were getting that support the last time, whereas the people who would have benefited the most were living in the houses that weren't being done in the community. So, you need to be thinking about, if we're going into an area, how do we make sure that the people who would benefit the most in that area get it, and that often is going to come down to process and in terms of people's ability to engage with application forms et cetera.

Perfect. You've talked previously about the ECO scheme or ECO Flex, and some of the concerns you've had there in terms of the workmanship. One of the things I found quite surprising was the variation between each local authority. So, obviously, each local authority in Wales sets their own statement of intent, I suppose, and we've seen situations where, for example, like with Powys, they've had over 4,000 applications, and Torfaen haven't had any, I don't think. And I just wanted to get your thoughts on the variation that exists between councils. Is there any good practice, because I would think that's quite worrying, really? To use a cliche, it's sort of like a postcode lottery, really, and I just want to get your views on that, if that's okay.

I'll jump in on that one. I think it's mainly to do with the appetite of the local authority. Powys have done a huge amount of applications and declarations because they were one of the first local authorities to actually embrace ECO, whereas the likes of Torfaen and some of the other local authorities have yet to look at it. We're in conversations with Torfaen and they'll be coming online potentially soon. I think it hinges a lot on the actual officers within the local authorities too. If you've got people that are proactive and understand the opportunities that ECO brings, they embrace it, and they liaise and bring more funding into that local authority. One of the situations that we're finding with the local authorities that haven't looked at ECO yet is that it's mainly because they're risk averse. So, there are two reasons, really—two risks that they foresee that could happen. One, they go down the ECO route and they open the doors and they're inundated with applications that they can't manage because there's no capacity within that local authority. There is one or maybe two housing officers that can't deal with the demand of the workload that they've got now, besides opening the door to ECO, and they've got hundreds of applications coming through. And then, secondly, the risk averse element of it, in the sense that we talked and alluded to some of the problems with ECO and the workmanship, that they're shying away from wanting to embrace ECO because they're scared that there may be reputational damage to that local authority because there is potential for the risk of organisations or contractors coming into the area and doing work, which is potentially on management, because they're not going down the Flex route—they're going down the HHCRO means-tested benefit route. So, like I mentioned earlier, there are two separate routes into ECO. The Flex element is relatively safe, and all the local authorities around Wales should be embracing it. It's a massive opportunity and a massive missed opportunity that they're not currently delivering ECO.

Is this a failure of the Welsh Government then to push it with local authorities or to drive it?

It's a central, Westminster, Ofgem-related scheme, so it's not the Welsh Government. It's the appetite of the local authorities. They all know about ECO, so the onus has got to be on them to a degree, but, certainly, the more it's promoted through Welsh Government or other channels, then yes there is more appetite and more likelihood that they'll take it on board. That doesn't solve the capacity issue within the local authority, and it's organisations like Warm Wales that then can step in and try and actually assist them, and we've got that open-door policy for any local authorities that we can step in and work with.

Perfect. Hang on, I think Ben was—. And then I'll bring Steffan in.

You go, Steffan.

I guess the one thing I was going to say, on the Welsh Government's role in this, is that if we go back to the discussion we had right at the start about ambition versus finance and what was behind it, well, if it is finance and this is a source of finance that isn't coming from the Welsh Government's budget, then there possibly is a role for the Welsh Government here to be a bit more strategic in terms of how it works with local authorities, because it's a way to spend UK Government money in Wales to deliver a Welsh Government policy objective. So, that is a role, possibly, for the Welsh Government to look a bit further at.

I was going to say exactly the same. I would add that I think the Welsh Government has invested about £350,000 in 2023-34 to enabling local authorities to come together, to try to make the most of ECO and come up with a statement of intent, but, as Jonathan said, it's a really mixed picture across Wales as to the involvement. We want to maximise the funding that's coming in, as Steffan has just outlined, and make sure that local authorities are adequately resourced to be able to do so, and not just bring in the funding, but to then provide all the aftercare and support and advice that sits around it that Hannah has eloquently explained.

I mentioned Powys, and you mentioned Powys was one of the first to really grasp the bull by the horns, I suppose. Do you have in your mind, then, a league table of good local authorities and then who are the ones at the bottom that should be looking to do a bit more?

I wouldn't say 'good' and 'bad'. I mentioned appetite and how further down the road they are. We are working with seven local authorities that are all very engaged and proactive within ECO, and we're still trying to lobby the other local authorities to join on board. The opportunity is there for people, so I wouldn't say it's necessarily good and bad; it's about proactiveness and apathy towards what they can do.

Okay. Can we bring in Jane Dodds at this point?

I think that the Welsh Government has a crucial role to play, Jane, in working with partners and other sectors, some of which will, obviously, sit within Wales and some will sit outside. That would include the regulator, Ofgem, it would include energy suppliers and networks, so industry, it would include local government, and it would include housing and health. There are huge opportunities to try to drive up housing standards in this space, to also tackle avoidable health inequalities. Fuel poverty is a very deep issue, as I said earlier. It's also a very cross-cutting one that would sit across all of those sectors, and so you'd want to see the Welsh Government—it's a cliché—pull all the levers that it can to make the most of the opportunities that we have in tackling fuel poverty, to improve people's incomes, to help make sure that the retail energy market is as fair and as accessible as possible, because, at the end of the day, energy is an essential service. It's not about the consumption of kilowatt hours; it's about having a warm, safe and healthy home and being able to use everyday appliances and cook food and all the rest of it, as well as upgrading the energy efficiency of people's homes, too. 

I understand that the Welsh Government, over the last few years, has met quite a lot with the UK Government and Ofgem and the industry. We've had big issues around the installation, or forced installation, of prepay meters, which I know the Petitions Committee was heavily involved in. There are huge issues currently around energy debt. There are rolling issues and considerations to do with standing charges and the regional variations in prices, and the fact that energy costs more in Wales and the minimum energy efficiency standards in the private rented sector. There are a lot of spaces here that we need to make sure are as joined up as possible to maximise those opportunities. 

Steffan Evans.

Yes, just to pick up on what Ben was saying as well, members of the committee may have seen a report that we published back in the summer looking at the support that energy companies themselves provide people who are struggling with their energy bills. What we found there was that it wasn't particularly well communicated to people, it wasn't particularly clear what support people were able to get. I know that the Cabinet Secretary has taken that forward with the UK Government and Ofgem, because it's within their gift to take more action in that space, but that's another example where there are levers that already exist that could probably be pulled more effectively to get money out to people, to get support to people in the here and now, and again, not Welsh Government money but still money that's going to get into communities and help people as well. So, they're another key cog in this as well, in terms of the providers making sure that they do the most that they can as well. 

Jane.

Steffan.

Hannah.

So, Sioned, you touched on the changes to the winter fuel payment, and that has been a massive concern for our local agencies across Wales and the people that we support. There are two main demographics of concern for us—it's people that fall just outside the eligibility criteria, so being able to be on pension credit and then not accessing the winter fuel payment. That is a monetary support scheme, and not having that for some of our clients means they are pushed deeper into fuel poverty or pushed into fuel poverty to begin with. I think it's also important to note here that it's not just the winter fuel payment that people are missing out on, but it can be thousands of pounds-worth of other passported benefits—water, broadband There's a whole range of benefits you can get when you claim pension credit, and there are people on that cliff edge that really miss out on everything. So, that is one area of concern for us as well.

Obviously, the other area of concern is people that are eligible for pension credit but don't claim it. I know that, for a lot of our clients, when we talk to older people about claiming all of their entitlements, there are a lot of issues around stigma, not wanting to claim benefits, or feeling like they're going to be taking money away from someone else. That is a concern that we get and that we've heard from our clients. So, in terms of what the Welsh Government can do, I think there is some work that needs to be done around those people that are on this cliff edge and not receiving any of those passported benefits, but also more information around the reframing of benefits, talking more about your entitlements and where that money comes from, and just generally how we talk about benefit take-up in Wales. That's what I would say.

I just want to ask Jonathan Cosson about a menu option we haven't discussed, which is those communities that are hosting windfarms, which tend to be in windy places. They are generating significant sums in community benefit funds. In your experience, how much are local authorities focusing on the benefits of decarbonising these communities of benefit who are eligible for it?

I'd say that they've barely touched it. The scale of them has been changing drastically over the last number of years. If you look back 10 years ago, the community support fund, I think, was £2 million per megawatt—very, very small—and this was used to support local football clubs and so on. The scale of them now is considerable. I was speaking to Bute Energy not long ago, and they've got hundreds of thousands of pounds, potentially, for community funds, but the local authorities aren't engaging or necessarily aware, or engaging with them, to access that, or we're not in conversations with them. So, a lot of thought and activity needs to be making sure that you're speaking to the right people to access these funds.

I don't think the local authorities—. Maybe they're not the right organisation to be doing that; it should be third sector organisations like Care & Repair, Warm Wales, and so on, because we're the ones speaking in the communities and aware of the actual issues that are around. We need to have that conversation with the windfarm developers to access those funds, and anticipate and understand what the application process is to get access to the fund and to deliver it across the regions we work.

Okay. Thank you very much. Thank you, all, very much for your time and for your excellent contributions. We'll, obviously, send you a transcript so you can correct it if we've heard you wrong.

The committee will now take a short break. We're going to resume at 3 o'clock. Hopefully, you'll rejoin us later.

Welcome back to the Equality and Social Justice Committee. Our next witnesses on fuel poverty in Wales are the deliverers. So, we've got Mason Steed from Energy Saving Trust; Ross Kirwan, the head of Nest at Centrica; and Fiona Cameron, online, who's the conduct, risk and consumer vulnerability director for Centrica. Welcome, all three of you. I'm just going to start off with the Welsh Government's statistics, which are based on 2018 data. So, how out of kilter are they with the actual situation around fuel poverty in this country?

I'm happy to start, if you're okay with that. Obviously, as you said, it's out of date, and the world has changed a lot since 2020—the COVID pandemic, and we went straight into an energy crisis that has created huge problems for fuel poverty throughout Wales. On the Welsh Government's own definition of fuel poverty, if you spend more than 10 per cent of your income on heat, you're in fuel poverty, and that means that 45 per cent of households in Wales are in fuel poverty, which is a shockingly large number. At some point, you've had a load of constituents come to you saying that they're in fuel poverty, or they're struggling, so this is an alarming statistic. So, it is vitally important that, as you said, Jenny, the Welsh Government is able to update its records on fuel poverty, so we can actually target this and work together to do it.

I totally agree with Mason, Chair. I've got nothing else to add, I think—

Okay, fine. Oh, sorry, if—

No, that's fine, thank you.

Fine. I suppose the next question is really how useful are the targets that the Welsh Government has planned for tackling poverty, given that the amount of money it's currently able to put into the new Nest programme is relatively modest, at £33 million, and it will take until 2061—anyway, somewhere in the next century when we'll all be dead is when we'll actually finish at the rate at which we're doing decarbonisation at the moment.

Like I said, British Gas have worked closely with the Welsh Government over the last 13 years now. So, over this period, Chair, we've delivered measures to over 60,000 properties, and we are working closely with the Welsh Government to identify opportunities to tackle these areas. We look forward to working with the Welsh Government over the next seven years now to identify what opportunities we can deliver to achieve these successes as well.

Okay, but we're still talking about relatively low numbers, the 1,700s a year, and so that would be some 15,000 over the next five years, up to 2034. That is just a drop in the ocean compared with the extent of the need. Does that make it really easy for you to deliver on that? Shall we bring in Fiona Cameron initially and come back to Ross? Fiona.

Thanks, Chair. Yes. I think what I would say is, clearly, there is a significant amount of fuel poverty in Wales. And there have been some recent surveys, like National Energy Action's, with half of adults in Wales saying that they're likely to ration their energy use this winter, and a further Citizens Advice survey with similar worrying figures. I think our priority is to step up and support our customers who've been impacted by the energy crisis and the cost-of-living crisis. I'll go on to talk about how we're doing that, maybe, but, firstly, I wanted to be clear that we're a committed long-term partner for the Welsh Government. I think the Warm Homes programme is important to improving people's lives, and we are doing everything we can to help make it a success. It does feel like a quite strategic and groundbreaking scheme, and we want to help it gain momentum.

It's probably, more broadly, worth saying that British Gas supports a just transition that includes energy efficient improvements and renewable solutions that can be tailored to vulnerable households, and we do advocate for a broad-based social tariff, funded through general taxation, which, whilst it's an ask for the UK Government rather than the Welsh Government, we would appreciate support for.

Okay. Because we're talking 11,500 homes over the next seven years, and 217,000 properties that are in need of this sort of service. So, what is your view, Ross Kirwan, about, obviously, huge need and very modest delivery mechanisms?

I think, like I said previously, Chair, I worked on the Nest 2 scheme, which delivered a number of measures to customers' properties, but the new scheme gives us the opportunity to fully focus on the customer in terms of the property. So, with the new scheme now, we've got a higher threshold, which we can spend on customers' properties as well, which will help those customers. Previously, there was a low threshold, but we've got a threshold of £35,000, which we can help with customers now as well. So, it gives us a lot more opportunity to deliver more for those customers.

As part of the roll-out of the scheme itself, over the last six months, what we've seen is that a high percentage of properties are of extremely poor quality as well. So, what we've been able to do is work with those customers to identify what the remedials are on those properties and put solutions in place to deliver more for the customer, which we haven't done previously. So, I think what we're doing now under the new scheme will help customers in terms of delivering better benefits for them in terms of their properties, but more efficient measures as well.

Okay. Are you able to look at the suite of options that is available? The £33 million from the Welsh Government is one option, but there are obviously these ECO schemes, there's a loan scheme that householders can also—it has recently been announced by the Welsh Government, where you can get zero-interest loans to decarbonise your home. Are these things that you're looking at when you're talking to individual households?

From a British Gas perspective, no, we are working with Welsh Government closely with regard to the budget that we've been allocated.

Fine. Okay.

I think, from an advice perspective, Energy Saving Trust are the advice partner for the Warm Homes programme, and we see it as a priority to ensure a just transition to net zero by viewing every household as individual and knowing that needs are complex. So, that's why we are quite supportive of the changes that have happened to the Warm Homes programme, in that, sometimes, low-carbon technology isn't the best option for households at the moment. So, if a boiler has become derelict and maybe an air-source heat pump is not appropriate for them, we will support and advise that maybe a new boiler is the best for it. Because even though a new boiler may not be in the spirit of decarbonisation, it is still more efficient than an old boiler—the technology is still working. And we need to remember that it isn't a leap; a transition to net zero is a transition, and the deadlines are—they're coming, but they're not immediate at the moment. So, it's important to see everyone's individual needs, and we prioritise and ensure that what is available to people is offered to them and then they can make their own decisions on that.

Okay. So, are you looking at all the possible funding pots that exist that aren't just what the Welsh Government is offering?

Well, of course, if you look at data from the last time that there was an annual review into the Warm Homes programme, granted, it has changed a lot. And 19.4 per cent of the advice we gave was to switch tariff, so it doesn't always have to be retrofitting into households. That is an important thing to say; it doesn't always need to be a Government financial solution, sometimes it can be advising individuals to make their own financial decisions.

Okay. But there are all these other schemes. I just want to know whether you're mindful of that when you're talking to individuals about the ECO schemes that exist and also the zero-interest loan scheme that the Welsh Government has just delivered.

Yes, of course. The people who do work for the advice part of Nest will provide as many options as they have so that they can make their own decisions. It isn't necessarily a streamline of one thing, it can be multiple avenues that people can take if they choose to do that.

Okay. Thanks very much. Can I just bring in Jane Dodds now?

I'll start. I think one of the big key changes for me has been the change in the scheme in terms of what the scheme itself involves. So, like I said, previously, I ran the Nest 2 scheme up until April of this year, at which point we had to demobilise the old scheme and mobilise a brand-new scheme. And as part of that mobilisation, we had to look at the contractor workforce, the qualifications, the accreditation of the new scheme and the existing contractor base that we had on the previous scheme and whether they would be suitable for the new scheme. So, as part of the mobilisation, we've had to focus on bringing in contractors who could deliver the full, end-to-end solution in terms of measures and they could cover the whole of Wales. So, it's taken a period of time to actually mobilise the contract and bring contractors on board and gain the qualifications.

There have been some challenges over the last six months since mobilisation in terms of what we've seen, and we've been working closely with the Welsh Government to overcome some of those challenges—things like air-source heat pump installations. When we go out—. So, as part of the actual process, I've got 10 retrofit assessors working on the scheme who visit customers' properties across Wales, and they will deliver a full retrofit solution for that customer; they'll spend three to four hours on that property discussing the options with those customers, identifying what the challenges are and what the opportunities are. From there, then, the information is passed to an independent party, so we've got a company called Sero that does the retrofit co-ordination activity, and they are based in Cardiff. But they will take all of the retrofit assessments that are completed and will identify what measures are available to those properties within the threshold and within the targets that are set by the Welsh Government as well.

So, it's been a massive learning curve over the last six months in terms of the new process, getting it up to speed, and we've worked together with the Welsh Government to make some changes to some of those targets, reduce some of the carbon targets, so that they're allowing customers to get through the scheme. And also we review the thresholds as well, so if a  customer comes through and, potentially, the measures that are needed to hit the targets are over the threshold, we'll review those on a case-by-case basis with the Welsh Government as well.

The last challenge, I suppose, is—. One of the biggest challenges we faced initially were air-source heat pumps. So, if a customer lives in a property where the boundary was less than 7m wide—there are restrictions in terms of the air-source heat pumps being lifted and a lot of those customers couldn't qualify for the scheme, then, because an air-source heat pump couldn't be put forward. But then we agreed to put an air-source heat pump into phase 2 of the actual programme, so it would allow for certain measures to go through, and then when the restrictions were lifted, we could re-contact the customer again in three, six or 12 months' time and allow for that measure to be installed as well. We are working closely with the Welsh Government. Yes, there have been challenges, but I think some of the challenges that we have faced we’re overcoming. One of the biggest challenges that we’ve overcome has been the crisis customers over the last two months—so, customers with no form of heating or hot water. We’ve been working closely with the Welsh Government to address some of those concerns. We’ve put a process in place for those customers whereby if a customer comes through with no form of heating or hot water, we will visit that customer the same day as the referral comes through to us, providing it’s before 11 o’clock, or the following day, to try and provide a solution for that boiler. 

In terms of data, I don’t have any information available in terms of how properties compare now to last year. For the last month, for example, what we are seeing is, in terms of referrals coming through, approximately 30 per cent of referrals in November that came through were customers that had no form of heating or hot water. But what I would need to do is just take that away in terms of providing you with a response as to how this was this time last year.

From British Gas’s perspective, like I said, we fully support the decarbonisation measures, and I think welcoming the changes to the crisis route has massively helped us and helped customers over the last two months. I definitely think it will be beneficial. I think it’s very early days at this moment. We’re only a couple of months into full mobilisation of the new scheme, and we’ll see some real benefits of those results over the coming months. But I think it’s the right way to go, whilst supporting customers. I think changing the process to incorporate customers who are in the position where they’ve got no form of heating or hot water has been a massive change, which we fully support within British Gas, and I think it’s the right way to go, going forward, when we look to overcome some of the challenges that we are facing now with regard to air-source heat pumps as well.

Can I bring in Sioned Williams?

Thanks. Just on that point, we know, obviously, there have been changes to that crisis pathway, so people now are not being turned away for boiler repair or replacement if their house isn’t appropriate for an air-source heat pump at this point, which is to be welcomed. But we’ve had information that the Government have stated that because they don’t want to move away from the decarbonisation aims of the programme, they’re not going to be advertising the boiler replacement directly in general Nest communications at this stage. We’ve also heard evidence in a previous session that Nest advisers are having to be advised themselves by people like Warm Wales as to the eligibility criteria. So, what do you think now? You’ve obviously told us that you think this is important, that people shouldn’t be left without heating and hot water. Given the Government’s standpoint here, and the fact that we’ve heard that sometimes advisers don’t seem to be fully informed about or are confused a little bit about the eligibility, what’s your opinion on that? Do you think that it should be made very clear that people are able to apply for boiler repair or replacement?

In my view and in Energy Saving Trust's view, I don't think it's appropriate for me to discuss that. Energy Saving Trust do not directly employ Nest advisers, nor am I a Nest or Warm Homes programme employee, so I don't think it would be appropriate for me to comment on that. But your concerns are noted, and I will take them to relevant people. But thank you for telling me that.

So, who are your advisers, if they don't work for you?

Energy Saving Trust are the contractors, but the—. I may have misspoken—I apologise, if I have, for that—and I would correct the record. Nest employees do, I think, have a contract for Nest and the Warm Homes programme. But I work for Energy Saving Trust.

I understand that. Ross Kirwan, is there anything further you wanted to say about that?

Going back to the point that was raised, I know, obviously, working with—. In terms of when you say Nest employees, I think the referral is towards the Energy Saving Trust employees—the initial point of contact by the partners. I know, from working closely with Energy Saving Trust, we have been in discussion around how this should be communicated. I know, over the last two months, the communication has gone out to partners, and we have been in discussion with the Welsh Government as to what should be discussed and how it should be discussed. But in terms of the communication, the communication itself is led by the Energy Saving Trust itself, not British Gas.

I think that's an important point to note. The Nest scheme and the Warm Homes programme aren't just one individual thing, there are three components of the scheme. So, myself at Energy Saving Trust, we're one part of the cog, British Gas is the second part of the cog, and, of course, Pennington Choices is the quality assurance part. It's important to recognise there is a separation when it comes to the Warm Homes programme, it isn't just one company doing everything.

Okay. Back to you, Jane.

With regard to the winter fuel payment, we recognise that there were some people receiving it who didn't need it, but Energy Saving Trust's view is there also needs to be a recognition for targeted support where people who may miss out do not miss out. I think this is where the Warm Homes programme is so important, to ensure that there is that targeted support for people. And, of course, going back to the initial question, 'Is the Welsh Government's approach correct?', well, it's out of date, because the world has changed a lot in the past four years. So, I think you're totally right in that.

The winter fuel payment changes made by the UK Government will create some problems for some people, but we need to recognise that there needs to be long-term solutions to fuel poverty. It can't just be quick sticks. The Government can't solve everything overnight. There need to be approaches to ensuring that there's energy security and decarbonising, to ensure that bills do come down and we're not dependent on wars that happen abroad that affect our energy crisis. So, you're totally right in saying that we need to look at the winter fuel payments, but we also need to look at long-term permanent solutions to addressing the energy crisis.

Hapus? We've lost you, Jane.

Did you, Ross or Fiona, want to come in on that? Or is there anything you want to add about—?

I've got nothing more that I'd like to add.

Okay, fine. We'll move on to Julie Morgan.

Diolch. I think you've made it clear that you approve of the changes to the eligibility criteria, but can you give an estimate on the changes to the number of households that might now access the scheme?

On data such as that, it's the prerogative of the Welsh Government to publish that. I'm sure some members of the committee will be aware that data from the Warm Homes programme is only available through an annual report that comes out, and the last one obviously came out last year, so there is no data that is publicly available. I don't believe I have the right to speak about data that the Welsh Government itself hasn't published. So, I believe, in your question, it's best to speak to the relevant authorities within the Welsh Government itself for data on that.

Right. So, you're not able give any sort of indication that you think it will result in roughly some sort of—?

I don't think it's appropriate for me to comment on Welsh Government data when they haven't published it themselves. So, I would refer you to the Welsh Government on that.

Right, okay. Thank you. I think we've already covered this a bit, but to what extent is participation in the new Nest scheme driven by people with broken boilers? How much of a driver is that in the scheme?

Since the changes have been made over the last couple of months, what we've seen is, in terms of the referrals that were coming through to British Gas where we've attended customers with no form of heating and hot water, we had a 16 per cent uptick in referrals in October and we've seen a significant increase, with 30 per cent of referrals that we received in November resulting in us, British Gas, attending a customer's property to try and repair that customer's boiler at that point. So, we are seeing a steady increase, especially over the last couple of months as the weather gets colder and customers are switching on their boiler. We will see and we will continue to see an increase, and obviously with the criteria opening up to all customers with no form of heating or hot water, those numbers are just ramping up and up.

But what we are also doing through our contract is we're building that contractor base as well. So we're utilising our contractor base to deliver both the PAS 2030 retrofit solution and to support us with the crisis support as well. So as part of the crisis activity, what we are doing now is we will—I think I mentioned it earlier—take the referral from Energy Saving Trust on the day, and providing that's before 11 o'clock in the morning we will go out the same day to that customer. If we can repair that boiler we will repair the boiler and we will continue working with that customer then, so we'll pass it through Sero and our installers so it still goes down the retrofit solution route at that point. We are not just leaving that customer with a repaired boiler.

If they've got no form of heating at that point of the visit, we will arrange for one of my retrofit assessors to go out to that property then within a couple of days, as soon as possible, to do a retrofit assessment and a technical survey on that property to determine what measures could be done, with priority being on the gas boiler so that the customer is up and running with a gas boiler at the earliest opportunity. But in agreement with the Welsh Government, what we're also looking at as part of that boiler solution is what other measures can we do for that customer, whether that's insulation, whether that's solar photovoltaic, whether that's battery as well, to fully support that customer—not just look at giving them a working boiler, but look at the net-zero ambitions as well and driving fuel cost savings by putting measures into that property.

So, we've got two solutions now. We've got a retrofit solution through the company and we've got a PAS 2035 decarbonisation route as well for customers that have got a working form of boiler at the initial point of contact when they come to EST.

I think it's obviously very good that you're able to get out the same day as you get a referral—a very good service in terms of making the contact. But do you get many situations where somebody is without heating—? I think you said that somebody goes back within a couple of days. Do you have any sort of emergency forms of referral to help to keep people going in that sort of extreme situation that we all worry about? 

What we will do is if customers, like I said, have got no form of heating, we'll ask them at the point of when we go to repair that boiler and we will provide them with electric portable heaters to provide with some support. We can give them a couple of portable heaters to support them. So we will leave those heaters with the customers to ensure that they have got some form of heating until we can actually overcome the challenge of getting a new boiler installed. But we are heavily focused on prioritising those customers, especially at this time of year, to make sure that we get the customer up and running with a form of heating as quickly as possible.

So you don't leave people in that situation. 

Unless the customer says they don't want it. But we put it to them and we emphasise the importance to them about providing them with a form of heating at their property. What I would say is each one of my surveyors or retrofit assessors that go out are domestic energy assessor qualified, so they will explain to the customer the benefits of the measures as well, so they’re fully supported and understand what measures need to be installed and the benefits of using these measures as well.

So, basically, the people that you send out are absolutely expert in what they're doing.

They're experts, and the majority of them qualified on the scheme, they've been working on the scheme since—. Some of them have been there since day one in 2011, but the majority of them have been working on the scheme for at least seven years. So, they're fully qualified and, as part of the changes to the scheme itself, we put them through a number of courses as well to get them upskilled to become even more qualified to support these customers as well. So, when they go out to the property, it's not just a case of trying to put the measure in, but it's explaining the benefits of the measure itself, how it can fully support them. And as part of my team, I've got contract managers who go out at the point of installation as well, to ensure that the installation is done to the quality that is required, as we've delivered over the last 13 years as part of the Nest scheme. And as part of the final end of the journey as well, the retrofit assessors who go out at the beginning to do the retrofit assessment will do a final inspection of that property, to ensure that the installation is done to the required standard, and that the customer fully understands how the appliances work and what's expected of them.

We've had evidence earlier on this afternoon that many of the officials who are organising some of the schemes—I'm not referring to your organisation—didn't have sufficient knowledge in some cases about how the schemes actually worked. I don't know whether you've got any comments on that. It sounds as if—. What you've told us sounds pretty thorough, but have you got any comments on that?

I agree with what Ross has said. If people who've previously given evidence have said these things, it is quite unfortunate. Like I've said in a previous question, I will write down concerns that have been expressed by members of the committee and take them back to people, so that, internally, we can have conversations about certain concerns, as of course we always will, and I thank you for raising that point.

Yes, thank you, because it did come over quite clearly from previous witnesses that people did not know the details of the schemes they were discussing, and it is complicated, isn't it? So, it's really crucial that the person who is going to be receiving this advice and help have got the actual clear alternatives put to them. Thank you very much. I think the rest have been covered.

Okay. Can I bring in Sioned Williams now? 

From British Gas's perspective, like I said earlier, we've worked closely with the Welsh Government. One of the biggest challenges at the beginning of the mobilisation of the scheme was, as I touched on, that a lot of the properties were in a really poor condition. So, 85 per cent, 90 per cent of these properties needed extensive remedial works to be completed to these properties. Prior to completing any measures, as part of the PAS 2035 decarbonisation guidelines, you've got to complete these remedials first. So, when my retrofit assessors go out to the properties, they will identify, as part of that retrofit assessment, the condition of the property, and then when the survey is passed to Sero, the retrofit co-ordinator, they will highlight the remedials that need to be completed on the property prior to works commencing.

And what we've agreed is a threshold with the Welsh Government over the last three or four months, whereby we can carry out these works within the threshold, which will enable us to complete the works on the property. Because there was a risk initially that if we didn't complete these works, then a lot more customer applications would fail. So, a process has been agreed and we've got agreement reached with all four of the major contractors, and we're working with other contractors now to come on board to carry out those remedial works. So, I think that the measures and the changes we've put in place over the last couple of months are definitely benefiting, and we'll see more success over the coming months with regard to those changes being made.

So, I think there are two points to that. The change to the thresholds was made approximately at the end of July, beginning of August. Now, I did listen to the previous session, about customers being turned away. Customers weren't turned away because of the retrofit assessment. There were targets in place with regard to fuel cost savings and carbon savings, which were set by the Welsh Government, and the EPC increases that are required for each property. So, as part of the retrofit co-ordination that's completed by Sero, they would take all of the information that's provided by the retrofit assessor, and they would determine, based on the calculations that are provided, what measures are suitable and whether they could deliver those measures in line with achieving each of those targets that the Welsh Government had set.

What we've done over the last couple of months, in addition to the thresholds, is that we've also reviewed or reduced some of those targets, in agreement with the Welsh Government. So, we've reduced the percentage that was set for fuel cost savings—I think it was initially 20 per cent; it's down to 12 per cent—and we've removed individual property carbon savings to an overall average, similar to what we did in the previous scheme. So, I think some of the challenges were with the targets that were in place, but we've definitely worked towards overcoming those challenges, so that we can get more applications through and more measures into customers' properties.

There were definitely some challenges in place initially with regard to the targets that were in place, hence the reason why we addressed those. I think we took a month's worth of data first, at the end of July, and presented that to the Welsh Government, and showed them the potential challenges that we were faced with—some of the initial obstacles—hence the delay in the roll-out of more volume being installed. But those challenges have been addressed, they have been taken away, and we have quite quickly changed those targets to address those issues for the customers.

And importantly on that note as well—sorry to interrupt—as the new changes come in now, like I've said in previous answers, if a household is being assessed and they think it's best for them to have a boiler, they will have a boiler. Nobody's going to have a heat pump forced upon them: No. 1, if they're not suitable; No. 2, if they don't want it.

And an important note on decarbonisation is that it can be seen as unfortunate by some people that it may seem like the Warm Homes programme has become a decarbonisation priority rather than being about tackling fuel poverty, but decarbonisation will address fuel poverty, because, as we all know, once we achieve net zero and we have energy security, we won't be reliant on foreign imports of gas that can be sabotaged by another nation or warfare, et cetera, et cetera. So, the two do work hand in hand, and that's why it's vital that the Welsh Government and everybody in this room ensure that there is a just transition to net zero and communities aren't left behind, and it doesn't just become an ideological stampede on people, but that it does become something that we can all work to together and recognise that it is a transition, not an overnight jump to net zero.

Sorry, apologies—. I'm talking to myself in these headphones. Can I just ask you to ask the question again, if that's okay, so I can just fully understand it?

Yes, I 100 per cent agree. So, I think, from our perspective, as I mentioned earlier, if a boiler is repaired for a customer, we will progress every single referral that we get when we repair that customer's boiler down the retrofit route. I would emphasise, over the last couple of years, we have carried out 400 to 500 insulation jobs per year, on average, wherever we possibly can as well, and we have fitted a number a number of external wall insulations to properties, where suitable.

The change to this scheme at this moment is that, when a survey or retrofit assessment is completed at the property, it's a third party that's been appointed to confirm what measures are suitable for that customer. So, as part of the contract with the Welsh Government, it was agreed that a third party would be introduced, so that they would determine what measures are suitable for that customer. So, it's not us, British Gas, that control it; it's a third party that would recommend it, and they oversee the programme of works then. So, they tell us what measures are suitable, we will send that information to the installer for the installer to carry out that work, and Sero, the retrofit co-ordinator, will review that design and the technical survey that's provided by the insulation team, to make sure that it's right for the property as well. So, everything's got to be right. Even though some measures might be recommended, it's got to be the right measure for the customer as well.

So, I'll answer the first point around the installation side of things and then I'll pass to Mason around the advice side of things, if that's okay. From an installation perspective, as I touched on earlier, when we started to mobilise the scheme, it was a massive learning curve for us in terms of what we needed on board to deliver the measures and the installations for the customer, and we'd worked with a number of companies in the past that just weren't set up to deliver the requirements of the new scheme. So, what we've done now is we're working with four companies, which are national companies, that deliver all types of measures for these customers. So, they can deliver an end-to-end solution and they can also deliver the remedial works for the customer. What we're not doing is we're not delivering part of the works through one company and part of the works through another company, and they're also doing the remedial. So, that allows us to control and ensure that the quality of that work is up to the required standard. My contract managers will go out to every single one of those jobs and they will review each of those jobs, just to make sure that they're up to the required standard as well.

On people with skills for delivering advice, there are enough people in Wales, but we need to look at this quite holistically. As we've seen in Wales, young people, people who are retraining, will learn how to install green technology or how to be general engineers, but unfortunately they go to England once they've finished their training. So, I know the words 'brain drain' are not the most appropriate to use in this context—it's probably not true—but we can see that, even though maybe Welsh colleges and universities are training people to a standard where there are enough, they're unfortunately not always staying in Wales, and obviously this doesn't just apply to engineering as we see it in the health service as well. So, it's important that, on a governance issue, Members of this Senedd and the Welsh Government are able to address those concerns about skills shortages and ensure that, once we've trained people, they actually do stay in Wales to implement these skills within Wales, rather than then leaving.

Thank you. I just wanted to add to what Ross was saying, that we're confident we have the skills that we need for this programme, and, over the years, we've taken on dozens of apprentices in Wales to support delivery, which is the right thing to do. But we know that we need to do more to identify engineers and technicians of the future who can deliver these programmes. So, we have got community engagement where we're delivering a schools workshop programme, which has reached around 1,000 pupils across over 30 schools, with workshops for students to design energy-efficient products. So, we are focused on this, and more widely as part of Centrica, which actually has the biggest unionised workforce in energy services. We're a leading investor in green skills, and we've got five UK academies for that. So, I just thought I would add that for context.

Just building on Fiona's point then as well, through the media engagement model as well that we've got, we've got a community engagement manager in place within the Nest scheme for British Gas that works closely with the manufacturers as well. So, what we've done over the last few years is worked with the manufacturers to get some independent funding, which we utilise then to support employment of apprentices on the Nest scheme. So, over the last couple of years, I know we've brought on 12 apprentices that have worked on the Nest scheme, and we've been able to fund that through sources that have been provided by the actual manufacturer companies as well, which is separate to the funding.

Okay. So, before I hand over to Julie Morgan, I just want to tie down—. Ross, you talked about four national companies that you're working with because they can now deliver end to end. Are you talking about four Welsh companies or four British companies?

All four companies, Chair, are based in Wales. So, yes, based in Wales.

Okay. Because, obviously, some areas, the housing is very dispersed and you've got to travel quite a long way to get from customer A to customer B. So, these four national companies, what effort is being made to, if you like, grow our own in remoter parts, for example, up in north-west Wales, which is quite a long way from Wrexham?

So, what we've seen in the Nest scheme over the last—. Well, over the last seven and a half years that I've been in the scheme, probably 80 per cent of the work that comes through the Nest scheme is for properties in the south of Wales, but what we've done as part of the engagement with the contractor workforce now is two of the contractors will be specific to the north Wales area. So, we've really focused on that area. We faced some challenges in the last scheme about employing contractors and the amount of time that they needed to spend travelling to properties. So, we've addressed that issue as part of the actual onboarding so that we've got contractors ready to cover the whole of Wales.

What we're also doing then as part of the further mobilisation, as we roll out, is bring more companies, upskilled, that have worked on the scheme previously, in hard-to-reach, remote areas. So, we're working with companies in north Wales, certain parts of north Wales, to engage them, so they get the microgeneration certification scheme, the PAS 2035 qualifications, and that they can come on board and work with us again over the next seven years as well. So, we're closely working with them now.

Okay. And just while we're sticking with technical issues, the change in the air-source heat pump regs to bring them up to the same standard as in England, how quickly do you expect that to happen? Because, obviously, that means—. At the moment, the urban proximity of terraced houses makes it too close for a lot of people to be able to install an air-source heat pump under the current regs. When do you think the regs will be changed to be the same as in England, or different but more amenable to enabling most people to be able to use these heat pumps?

I think changing the rule, obviously it's outside of our control—it's a Welsh Government decision—but I think this is one of the biggest challenges for us at this moment, and it needs to be changed at the earliest opportunity so that it will fully support customers even further then over the coming months. But it's definitely something that we would like to see a change being made as quickly as possible. We've got—

Okay. But, clearly, you need to know about this, because you need to have your engineers on board, because you'll suddenly see a big increase in the numbers who want and can install air-source heat pumps.

That's correct, yes. And what we're doing now, in terms of the workforce that we've got on board, I've noticed that we have got the contractor workforce that can deliver air-source heat pump installs. So, across all four companies, and companies that we're looking to bring on board, they've got the skills there to do air-source heat pumps. So, we are doing air-source heat pump installs now, and we are in a position whereby, if we ramp up volumes over the coming months, and the rules reduce, we could deliver those numbers through the scheme and through British Gas.

Thank you very much. Can I bring in Julie Morgan?

Yes. Thank you very much, Chair. I wanted to ask you about contracting and monitoring arrangements. The auditor general's report in 2021 highlighted variations in the cost of some measures between Nest and Arbed schemes, and also said that there should be opportunities to improve contract management. Do you feel that these have been addressed in the new scheme? And are you able to share any information or views on the contracting arrangements for the new schemes?

It's very early days at this moment. In terms of the new scheme, what I would say is, over the last few years, especially that I've been working closely with the Welsh Government, we've been closely monitoring the impact of some of the measures in the monitoring agreement. So, we've been focused on what carbon savings have been delivered for the customers’ properties, what the fuel-cost savings are—individual properties plus an average saving. So, we have closely monitored that, and we've reported that and discussed that every month as part of the monthly compliance meetings with the Welsh Government. So, it's something that we are closely monitoring. We are working with our third parties now. So, some of the savings, things like the carbon savings and the fuel-poverty savings that we are focused on now, we're closely working with Sero, the retrofit co-ordinator, and they will be in a position, over the coming months now, to demonstrate how each property is benefiting from these changes, and we'll be able to report that and discuss that on a monthly basis with the Welsh Government.

Right, and what about the scheme contract management? The auditor general suggested there could be improvements with that. Have you got any comments on that?

Myself, personally, I've got no comments in terms of how it could be improved. I think, in terms of the way we are working now and working closely with the Welsh Government, and how we control that in terms of contract management, from our perspective, we've got very tight controls in place in terms of performance reporting and contract management. I don't know what the specific challenges are, how they think it could be improved, but I can definitely take that away and feed back on that, if that's okay.

Thank you. Mason, any comments on this?

I agree with what Ross has said on the issue, and I think questions about contracting and monitoring should be directed at the people who do that part of the Warm Homes programme rather than the Energy Saving Trust. But, again, I'll take your concerns away and get back to the committee if it's appropriate for me to comment on that.

I think you're taking away quite a lot of things, aren't you? I think we'll wait for you to come back.

In any case, the last question from me to the Energy Saving Trust: how do you measure performance in terms of advice and referrals? And what role do targets play in ensuring that you're proactively reaching households and businesses in need and measuring performance?

Well, of course, in the ideal world, the job is done when there is no more fuel poverty in Wales, and every single household is retrofitted, but, obviously, we're not magic. We can't do that overnight.

So, in reference to monitoring targets, the annual review that comes out for the Warm Homes programme does give quite detailed statistics about how many people the Warm Homes programme has reached and what percentage of that has led to a certain difference of advice like, for example, for 19.4 per cent in the 2021-22 data the advice was tariff switching, 6.5 per cent was Care & Repair. So, that is how we monitor how many people we've reached. But, in the year 2021-22, 15,777 households received free and impartial advice, and 5,127 of those had home improvements. So, that's how we monitor how many people are being reached, and that does come out in the annual report for the Warm Homes programme.

Right. Do you think any more should be done than that?

I think there can always be more done. Like I said, the job is done when there is no more fuel poverty in Wales. But perhaps the alternative would be—. That is up to the Welsh Government, though, to decide if there should be more money invested into the Warm Homes programme. The Energy Saving Trust—I'm sure British Gas would agree—we do what the Welsh Government instruct us to do through their part of the Warm Homes programme. So, I think it's a governance issue to decide if more money should be spent on the Warm Homes programme, if there should be more advisers, or there should be more people involved in the scheme as a whole.

Thank you.

Thank you. Just one follow up, in terms of the contract arrangements. Ross Kirwan, you said that you employ Sero to analyse the prescription of your retrofit advisers. I'm familiar with them, because they've given evidence to the climate change committee on more than one occasion. They then do an assessment that the job list to be done on property X is appropriate, and do you then submit that information on a case-by-case basis to the Welsh Government to approve, or do you then take up the approval or the work programme of Sero and get on with it?

So, we don’t go to the Welsh Government for approval of each job.

Okay. 

When the installation of the works is completed—. The installer will provide a technical survey of what they plan to install, and we will work with them to deliver a retrofit design for that property. We submit that to Sero for them to sign off, to make sure that it’s lined up in terms of their expectations from the retrofit assessment report. When the installation is completed, we then provide a final assessment pack, which is passed to Sero again. They will review that and sign off the installation. If there’s anything that’s not been covered as part of the installation, in line with PAS 2035 decarbonisation rules, we will address that at that point, and, then, when they are satisfied, we will provide all of the final documents, which are then lodged with Trustmark.

So, there are various checks that are put in place to ensure that—. I think the good thing—I’ve listened to the last session—. Some of the situations with ECO, we’ve put measures in place to see that we don’t put customers into that position. We are ensuring that, for the installations that we carry out, there are guarantees in place for those customers, and there are also measures in place within my team—various visits throughout that installation journey—to ensure that the installation is up to the required standard of the scheme.

Thank you. 

And—. Sorry.

Can I just bring in Sioned Williams? Sorry if I cut you off. 

No, that's fine. 

Sioned. 

Sorry, a question for me, is it? Yes. So, in terms of cost savings, carbon savings, EPC savings, we measure every installation that’s completed through the scheme through Sero. So, we will have that information available. We report it and discuss it as part of the monthly compliance meetings with the Welsh Government, but the information is available. 

Only on installation, so how about on the advice side of things?

So, the advice side of things would be separate, so that would be the Energy Saving Trust then.  

And like I’ve said, that data goes into the annual reports for the Warm Homes programme that comes out. Obviously, there isn’t one for this year yet, but, when it comes out, all the data will be in there for public knowledge for people to read.

Yes, so those people you’ve reached who don’t necessarily have installations, do you measure outcomes for them?

Yes. So, the statistics go into outcomes, saying that x amount of people received maybe something basic like changing a tariff, or x amount of people received something quite simple. So, everyone who contacts the Nest scheme, that data then goes into the annual report about what the advice was and what the outcome of that advice was as well. So, whether it goes down to a British Gas level, or it is just a phone conversation, there’s a discussion there.

Yes, but, as an outcome, if they’ve changed the tariff, do you measure, then, what the outcome is in fuel poverty terms for them?

Right, sorry, I misinterpreted your question. I believe that it is in the Warm Homes programme report; I will get back to you on that one. But I do believe that is monitored in the annual report, yes. And if I’m wrong, I will correct the record on that.  

Diolch. 

Thank you. Can I now bring in Joel James, please?

Thank you, Chair, and thanks ever so much for coming in this afternoon. You might have heard my questions—because I think you were up in the public gallery—about Arbed. That ceased in 2021, and, obviously, there’s talk, there, about needing a programme that looks at areas. And the Minister’s statement last year didn’t really name a successor. But there have been warm words to say, on a small scale at least, that they're looking into bringing it back. I just wanted to get an idea of what you think that scheme should look like, really.

I think it's an important point. As we know from data, Wales is quite diverse on where support is actually needed. So, in the last annual report for the Warm Homes programme, it came out that Rhonda Cynon Taf had the most amount of people who contacted the Nest scheme, with Monmouthshire having significantly less—quite significantly less—and Newport was about in the middle with support needs. So, there is diversity across Wales, and being able to target people where they are and where it's most needed is very, very important, because it's important that we don't just see it as a one-size-fits-all problem and a one-size-fits-all solution. I don't think that's an appropriate way of targeting it, because every single household is unique and all needs are quite unique and they're quite complex. So, I do believe, and I do agree with you there, Joel, that having area-based approaches is the best way to tackle this and to treat everybody as individuals, rather than just a whole wide-Wales approach.

Okey-dokey. What about you, Ross?

I totally agree, and I think, as part of the discussions with the Welsh Government, we have discussed this, and we have agreed that an Arbed-type scheme, an area-based scheme, will come to fruition in the near future. I think the key focus now is to look at the first year of the scheme, get this up and running to the required levels, making sure that we're increasing the volume, supporting more customers, getting—. Not 'getting this right', because it is right, but just increasing volumes, and then focusing on phase 2, the area-based scheme, in the very near future. But it is definitely something that we are engaging with the Welsh Government on, and they are fully engaged with ramping this up in phase 2 in the near future as well.

Have they given any timescales there?

No. From our perspective, we've just said early into the new year we'll carry on with discussions, but I think, for me, the key things is let's build this first contract here, let's get the volumes ramped up. From a winter perspective, we've just had a big change recently come in with regard to the crisis customers and a change in process on that. So, I think our focus at this moment is definitely on that, at this moment in time, but it's something that we need to look at in the very near future.

So, with the previous evidence session, we talked a lot about the ECO Flex scheme and how there's a lack of—. I don't want to say 'consistency', but each local authority varies in terms of—I don't want to say 'how successful'—how committed they are in terms of rolling it out, and if they've got the resources behind it to be able to do it, and even if they've got that buy-in to it as well, because we've heard about how some might be reluctant to take on that extra work because they just don't have the capacity to do it, really, and there's a worry there that the scheme itself, then, could be negatively affected, but also, from the reports we've read, then, there's also a concern that rogue traders can get involved in this scheme, then, and I just wanted to get some idea of your assessment of the ECO Flex scheme there, and whether or not local authorities are making the most of it, if that makes sense, and really what could be done, really, maybe to improve it. Thank you.

From an advice perspective, you are right in the points that you've raised, but, from a delivery perspective, you are also correct in identifying that councils across not just Wales but the whole UK are cash strapped, and I'm sure that some of them haven't always paid full-on attention to fuel poverty. But I think questions on delivery in regard to this would be best answered by Ross.

From a local authority perspective, like I said, over the last seven years, we've worked closely with the Energy Saving Trust to identify local authority engagement, and there are certain areas that we have had challenges with, but we have engaged with 22 local authorities over the last seven years, throughout each year, and over the last two contract years before the current scheme came in, we had engagement. It was probably the highest engagement with local authorities. What we need to do now is fully focus with the local authorities at this moment, with the Energy Saving Trust's support, to engage with these local authorities in line with what the new schemes are going to deliver for these customers as well, because it is a big change to customers. In the past, it's been seen as a gas boiler replacement scheme. What I would say is I did take note that 90 per cent of the boilers—. I think it was 90 per cent of the properties, or 90 per cent of the measures, sorry—that was one of the comments that came back, and that's slightly untrue. There has been a lot of good work done over the last seven years in terms of changing that—more insulation measures, more solar PV, more net-zero products coming in to support. But, we are working with local authorities and we're working closely with the Energy Saving Trust to build those relationships with regard to the new scheme, then, Joel.

On a completely different tangent, then, to what extent is there confidence, do you think, in the schemes that are there? One of the concerns that I've always had is that there's a lack of buy-in from the public because they see it as, maybe, for want of a better word, a con job. When I was a councillor, we had the Nest scheme in RCT. Even I had people ringing me up saying, 'Your home could be eligible for an energy efficiency programme.' So, they are targeting vulnerable people out there, and obviously, then, you get people just saying 'no' to everything because they're concerned about the legitimacy of it. Is that something that you've come across when you've been doing it?

I think it's hard to totally quantify people's concerns over the legitimacy of schemes, but it's not just an issue that affects the energy sector. Every single industry has rogue traders, cowboy builders or scam calls. So, I think that's a governance issue. I think that's an issue for the Welsh Government to be able to tackle the issue of scams and phoning people. You're totally right—they often do target the most vulnerable who are in most need of support and, as we're entering into the winter again, where some people genuinely cannot pay their bills and they get desperate, they'll consider them. So, you're totally right to bring up that issue and I thank you for doing it, but I believe that it is a governance issue for the Welsh Government to be able to highlight the legitimacy of the Nest scheme and make sure that it is targeted to the people who need it most and that we get there before the rogue traders and the scammers do.

Thank you. All right. Ross or Fiona, is there anything—? I'm sorry, Fiona, I hope you haven't felt I've ignored you.

I've got nothing more to add, Joel. I think, as I said, with regard to any of these challenges we do face, we do pick it up, we do discuss them with the Welsh Government and Energy Saving Trust on a regular basis. But, from our perspective, we don't have day-to-day dealings with the local authorities themselves; it's mainly through the Energy Saving Trust that the discussions take place. 

Okay. Perfect. Thank you. 

Okay. I get the impression that some local authorities are easier to engage with than others on this massive issue of fuel poverty. I have a particular interest in those local authorities who are hosting windfarms because they're generating sizeable pockets of income in community benefit funds, which, obviously, are only open to those who live near these windfarms. So, is there anything you're able to tell us about how actively local authorities are looking at how they can help those communities think beyond tarting up the playing fields, which was what the early adopters—? Because you're now talking about large sums of money, and money is in short supply. Is there anything you would be able, Mason, or indeed Fiona, to add, given that you're dealing with the most vulnerable customers? Are people aware of these large funds building up, on local authorities?

Go on, Fiona. Fiona wanted to speak.

Fiona, do you want to start off?

To be honest, I was going to say that it's not something that really has come up. So, apologies, I can't really shed any light on that one. But it's an interesting point and I'll take it away.

Thank you. Good. 

Fiona is right—it's not something that always does come up. It comes up mainly in academic research when community benefits come up. It's something that academics are trying all the time. But, there are a lot of concerns that come from certain communities. I know that the term Nimbyism arose quite a lot with regard to these sorts of things, and there is some strength and, obviously, big negatives to their arguments as well. As we see in Scotland, people who are nearest to where the energy is generated often pay the highest tariffs for that energy, and that does lead to some concerns from communities that, if their landscape is, perhaps, infiltrated by pylons and other schemes, they may have their community disrupted but then they pay the highest amount for that energy. So, it's important for people within the energy sector, for politicians, to be able to address these concerns and also to myth-bust a lot of these problems to reassure communities that we are interested in a just transition to net zero and we want all communities to benefit from it, and that it's not just piling over the landscape and annoying local communities. I think that's an important point to make.

Okay. Jane.

I just wondered if we could ask Fiona: your job title suggests that you are there to oversee the work with people who are vulnerable. Can I just ask a little bit more about the work that you do with vulnerable people here in Wales and how you monitor their access to warm homes and hot water, et cetera? Could you just say a little bit more about what you do at Centrica, please? Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Yes, certainly. So, I've been at Centrica for a year now and my role is really to ensure that British Gas drives good customer outcomes for all customers. But, yes, there is a particular focus on vulnerable customers, including those in financial difficulty who may need additional support. I can probably talk maybe a little bit more high level, but I can certainly give some Welsh-specific areas where we’ve made some impact in terms of supporting. So, we help customers in lots of different ways. A big way that we do that is through the British Gas energy fund, and that provides financial help, as grants of up to £1,700 to those who are struggling with energy debt, whether they're British Gas customers or not, and it can also help households in different ways—for example, with replacement of white goods, like washing machines. It's fully funded by the British Gas trust, with £128 million committed since the start of the energy crisis.

In Wales, on top of the work delivering the Nest scheme—which, as I've already said, I think we're very proud to work with the Welsh Government to deliver—we’ve provided more than 230 grants of up to £1,700 to customers in Wales through the British Gas energy trust. That includes £50 million investment in customer service, so we do employ more than 1,000 colleagues right here in Cardiff who are supporting customers here and across the country, and, in fact, we recruited another 206 colleagues in Wales. But one of the ways that we work quite closely to support vulnerable customers is through front-line organisations in Wales that are making a real difference to fighting fuel poverty—so, Citizens Advice Rhondda and Riverside Advice. So, we've been able to give help to communities through those partnerships. Just to give an example, last week, we supported customers financially who'd been impacted by recent flooding—it was storm Bert. But British Gas also does generally give support direct to our customers. So, this week, we're sending credits to 15,000 of our customers who are on prepayment meters, who tend to be our most vulnerable. We’ve identified these customers as potentially struggling and we funded that credit direct to send out to them at the start of winter. We're very conscious of debt. We have recently launched a unique, first-of-kind support to help people get into repayment, but what we do is called ‘You Pay: We Pay’, and we will match payments. So, this is the type of thing that we're doing to support our customers.

Thank you. Sorry to interrupt, but we're coming to the end of our time. Through the Chair, I just wondered if it might be possible just to have an outline of the work that's done by Centrica here in Wales, outlining some of the things that you've talked about. Would that be possible, Chair, please?

We can ask. I mean, I think I've got an idea. It's quite a complicated process, from when somebody picks up the phone to the Energy Saving Trust and then what follows from that, but a very brief timeline of how this happens would be very useful, if that was possible.

And the other thing is that, Mason, you said that it wasn't possible for you to provide data on how many people had been helped so far, because that data belongs to the Welsh Government. When do you think your annual report will be published?

I think my question is a lot simpler to answer. I haven't got an actual timeline on when that will be published, but I'm sure the committee will know around the same time we do when it does get published. But given the changes to the Warm Homes programme, which came in in April, I believe, for the new financial year, it might be different to previous years.

Okay. So, it's likely to be that you will wait until after the end of this financial year before you publish something. Would you then be in a position to publish it, say, in April?

Yes. So, it's obviously collected throughout the year. You don't get people who just sit down a week before it's due to be released and publish the data set—

No, I understand that. But we, at the moment, don't know. We clearly need to know. We'll be asking the Welsh Government, so it would be useful to know what data can be released, so that we've got some idea of how much pace has been put into the delivery of this new Warm Homes programme.

Off the top of my head, I'm not 100 per cent sure when it's going to be released.

Okay. Perhaps you could let us know.

Yes.

Thank you very much.

Can I just add in terms of the annual report? The annual report that's going to be issued shortly will be for the previous contract year. So, it's not going to relate to the new scheme. That will be next year then.

Okay. So, we're only now going to be receiving something that finished at the end of March.

Correct.

Okay. So, it's extremely difficult for us to scrutinise the pace of change if we haven't got the data. But, clearly, we'll pursue the Welsh Government on it, but if there's anything that you're able to agree to release with Welsh Government, that would be extremely useful.

I will contact the people at Nest to see what I can share with the committee.

Okay. Fiona Cameron.

Apologies, I just wanted to clarify: was that a request to come back in writing with more information about how Centrica has supported vulnerable customers and a timeline of a customer looking for support? I just wanted to make sure I'd understood—

Well, that's one aspect of it. I wasn't being that specific. At the moment, we've got a programme that started in April. We have no idea how many people have been assisted or the nature of the intervention. So, clearly, we are keen to find out. But, equally, we'd be very happy to receive any data that you are able to give us about the current programme in terms of vulnerable people—

Chair, can I make a point on that? This isn't only a Welsh thing, so the Scottish Energy Services is also the same. The Scottish Government do keep the data and publish it at their own prerogative, so it isn't just a Welsh-only thing—

No, no, I appreciate that. Absolutely. But we're obviously keen to just get whatever information is available.

Thank you very much indeed for your attendance. We'll send you a transcript that you should look at just to make sure we've captured accurately what you said, and otherwise, in due course, we will be publishing a report. Thank you very much indeed.

Diolch yn fawr iawn. 

Thank you.

We have five sets of papers to note. So, are Members content to note them or is there anything—? Jane.

I'm sorry, Chair. May I ask a specific question—I'm happy to put it in writing to you—about paper 4.3?

Yes. It's fine if you want to mention it here before we go into—

I just wondered if we could seek further clarification on how many employees altogether are in the Senedd. So, we've got a number for those who are registered disabled, but I don't know what percentage that is in the Senedd.

Fine. I'm sure we'll be able to get that information. Thank you.

So, if there are no further comments, can we now agree to go into private session?