Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru

Bore da, croeso. Good morning and welcome to this morning’s meeting of the Public Accounts and Public Administration Committee in the Senedd, the Welsh Parliament. I’m pleased to welcome our witnesses to the committee this morning. The meeting is bilingual. Headsets are provided for simultaneous translation on channel 1 and sound amplification on channel 2. Participants joining online can access translation by clicking on the globe icon on Zoom. Adam Price has given his apologies for this meeting, but Heledd Fychan is deputising for him, so welcome to this committee. Do Members have any declarations of registrable interest they wish to share? I can’t see any indication, so that’s fine. Before commencing our first evidence session, I’ll just place on record that the committee will be visiting Cardiff Airport on 9 January for a guided tour and a briefing from the executive team of Cardiff International Airport Limited.

So, if we can come to this evidence session on active travel, I again welcome our witnesses. I’d be grateful if you could state your names and roles for the record. We'll perhaps start with Ms Letman-Wade.

Bore da. Rhiannon Letman-Wade, the deputy chair of the active travel board.

Bore da. Stephen Cunnah, I'm the policy and external affairs manager for Sustrans Cymru.

And our online guest.

Hi, I'm Ruth Billingham, head of campaigns at Living Streets.

Thank you very much indeed. We have a number of questions to get through, in fact a lot more than we probably can squeeze into the time allotted, so I’d be grateful if both Members and witnesses could be as succinct as possible in your answers. As Chair, I’ll begin the questions. So, overall, how would you assess progress on active travel over the 11 years since the Active Travel (Wales) Act 2013 was brought into being, and how do you feel the position in Wales compares with the rest of the UK?

So, I think generally we have seen major progress in active travel, especially in recent years, where funding has been a lot more than it was previously. In terms of where we need to go, improvements et cetera, and how we’re comparing with the rest of the UK, it’s hard to make a direct comparison just because of the way funding streams have been. But, with the report that the board did launch, our annual report, we’re making some comparisons, or example comparisons, of how the Welsh Government have invested more per head than other areas of the country—of the UK. However, there are places where we can improve. So, for example, in London, there is a lot more investment in walking and cycling, so if we were going to compare city to city then we probably wouldn’t see as big an investment.

I would also pick up on the funding point that Rhiannon’s mentioned. It’s been 11 years now since the active travel Act was introduced to the Senedd and enacted, but for me the real start of the journey was when the funding followed the Act. The obligations and the duties in the Act to do the active travel maps and so on and so forth are laudable and are very helpful for authorities to have a strategic and continual plan to improve active travel, but, without the funding to back that up, it’s only a plan on paper, literally. So, the active travel fund, I think, was more significant in many ways, which was introduced in 2018. But the real significant jump was during the COVID pandemic, when the Welsh Government received lots of consequential funding and there was a sudden jump in the amount of expenditure. It started off with about £10 million in 2018, and, around about 2020-21, it went up to over £50 million. So, for me, there's only really been three or four years of what I would consider anything like an adequate amount of funding to back up the policy and the strategy. Sustrans Cymru is an organisation that—and others on other committees—had campaigned for funding of around about £20 per person. It has gone over that now; in the last financial year, it was around about £23 per person. But we've been outpaced, I would say, by other places. So, you mentioned the UK; in Scotland, the Scottish Government had a target of £56 per person—well over double the Welsh funding. They haven't met it, but they're still on £35 per person at the moment. So, we're not keeping pace, in my view, with Scotland, for example, and other parts of the UK.

Thank you. Ruth Billingham.

I would just agree with what Stephen has said there. I think, on how we've progressed and what we've seen over the last 11 years, as highlighted in the report, there is some work to do in terms of monitoring and evaluation, and the national travel survey in England does have more data that is gathered, so there is a discrepancy there. But I would agree with Stephen on the funding point there, and when, actually, we've started to see progress has only actually been in the last few years. So, although the Act was some time ago, it's only more recently that we've seen good progress.

Thank you. Of course, it's not just how much money you spend, it's how well you spend it and what the outcomes delivered are. So, with national survey for Wales data suggesting that active travel routes have, at best, remained static over recent years, what do you believe are the key reasons for this, and, in addition to the amount of money, are there ways that you might suggest that money might be spent differently to achieve the outcomes you seek?

One of the recommendations of the board was that the way we've been tracking and monitoring the use of active travel, or how many users there are of active travel, isn't effective enough, so I think it's quite hard for us to really understand how many people are using these routes. The one thing I will say is that Public Health Wales run a secondary school survey that asks children how they travel to school, and there's been a heavy investment in active travel within Cardiff, especially around schools, and that number, the number of children walking and cycling to school, is increasing year on year. So, we know that there is an upward trajectory of active travel in pockets, but it's how we actually capture that data, and the way we're capturing that data at the moment just isn't effective.

Do any of the other speakers wish to comment? I'll bring Mike Hedges in, and then I'll invite you in.

It's the gaps, isn't it? I live in Swansea, we've got a really good active travel route right the way up almost to Ystradgynlais, certainly past Pontardawe, but you've got gaps—you've got a gap around the stadium, you've got a gap where you have to get across Park Road. Those are the controlling steps. Shouldn't we be doing more to fill in the gaps, rather than extending routes?

Well, perhaps, Mr Cunnah, you can respond to the earlier point and then pick that up, and then others may wish to also comment. 

Thank you, Chair. I would slightly downplay the national survey figures. I know they've been highlighted in the Audit Wales report and in the active travel board's report, primarily because it's the main source of data we have, but the problem is the sufficiency of data in active travel. So, when you look at the national survey, there's this figure, which has gone down nine percentage points, for people who regularly walk. Even within the survey itself, from 2019, I think it was, to 2023, there was a qualification, because they changed the methodology. During COVID, they went from face to face to a telephone survey. So, the methodology was different, and that point stands for all the findings they had. But what that doesn't take into account is what happened in between those years. So, we had COVID, and the big change for me is that many more people work from home. That data wasn't picked up in the survey in 2019, it wasn't asked, but, when it was asked in the second survey, I think it was that 39 per cent of people are now working from home. And where we've got more robust data in other modes of travel, we see exactly the same pattern. So, if you look at the number of train tickets that were sold between 2019 and 2023, there was actually a 33 per cent reduction. Bus journeys were over 20 per cent down. Even air travel was down, and we know how much the Welsh Government has had to spend on supporting Cardiff Airport, for example. So, I think it's across the piece, and I question how accurate the data is. We need better data for active travel and I look forward to the Welsh Government doing a national transport survey, which will give us that better data. But I also think it needs to be contextualised.

And any thoughts on Mike Hedges's comments?

So, in terms of gaps, really it's a never-ending puzzle, isn't it, to create a connected, continuous network. For me, I mentioned the quantum of funding, but I think it's also important to have consistency, because no one can build a network or have any long-term strategy without faith that they'll get multi-year funding, and local authorities—. You know, you can't build things overnight. We might come back to this later, but one of the problems with the active travel fund is that it's done on an annual basis. Often the bids are only assessed in the January and local authorities have to be ready to put spades in the ground in the April, in that financial year. We know with big infrastructure projects and big networks and connections, you need to have a long-term plan and long-term funding that is reliable.

These aren't big, though, are they? These are getting across Park Road in Ynystawe. It's about getting around a stadium in Swansea. Park Road, from I think it's route 34 to route 35, or 40 to 41, it’s going across not much wider than this room, but there's a gap, and people take their children across roads against the traffic. Around the stadium is just the size of the stadium. These are the gaps. It's not about large sums of money, in fact, it's not even about long-term planning; it's about making sure the gaps are filled. That's what happened with the M4. The M4 now goes all the way to London from the outskirts of Llanelli, but it didn't use to go around Cardiff, for example; you had to go through Cardiff when you were travelling east. There were lots of gaps that existed, and they've been filled. Don’t you see that, until you start filling the gaps, people will not take their children somewhere where, all of a sudden, they have to go onto a main road?

I absolutely agree, but it's a generation's work to create a network that covers enough places to cover all those routes to school, to local communities. We have some good infrastructure in Wales—relatively good pavements, some cycleways, especially in places like Cardiff, but there are huge gaps everywhere. To get to a point where, as you say, there are no gaps, it's a multigenerational thing, really, of consistent focus and consistent funding.

Could that be addressed in the funding application process or be better managed by local authorities? Where does the blockage lie?

I think it's around priorities of local authorities. So, it's obviously up to the local authority to apply for that funding and they must go through prioritisation criteria internally to be able to put those routes up for funding. So, that route there you're talking about, it could be potentially that that might not be on their priority list for that funding round. I'm not sure of that local knowledge specifically in each area, but it's just about what they apply for funding for. Yes, it would be a lot better if there was multi-year funding for local authorities, so then they've got a pipeline of schemes that they're able to complete over years instead of just one funding year, and it makes them look at a long-term strategy rather than short-term wins.

What they do is make a lot of very long cycleways. I can talk about Swansea; I'm sure it's true for other places as well. You've got very long cycleways where they take the easy: 'I can do 10 miles of cycleway there, it's away from the road, it's away from the pavement.' But people who are travelling, especially if they've got children, don't want to take their children across difficult places, don't want to make them cross roads. Until you fill those gaps, you're going to have a problem, surely, with getting people, especially children, to use it.

It's a point well made, and I think there's consensus on this. But Ms Billingham, do you have any comments to add to the questions and matters raised?

No. I do agree about gap filling. We know that it's also small things like a dropped kerb or a bollard in the wrong place that can really affect a journey, particularly for vulnerable pedestrians. So, yes, I think there's some work to do in looking at, as well as the larger schemes that get approved, how do we make a difference to those short everyday journeys that would reduce barriers for disabled people, older people and people with children. 

Thanks. I'm glad you raised that because, for example, reference was made during the pandemic and the increase in funding for active travel—. Then, Guide Dogs for the Blind Association and RNIB produced a paper highlighting the extra barriers that that was creating for disabled people and people with sight loss because they hadn't been consulted first. The problem wasn't active travel, the problem was not designing the active travel with them to avoid the barriers. Thank you very much. 

Exactly. I was just going to say I think any scheme needs to have full consultation with a wide range of stakeholders and the whole community, particularly those vulnerable road users, because if a walking route or cycle route works for them, they'll work for everybody. And so it's really important that we bring marginalised groups right in at the beginning of any scheme or development.

Thank you. Do you see any green shoots, beyond what you said, arising from the increased Welsh Government funding you've referred to that may not yet have fed through to the data? 

I think there's a slight lag in the data at the moment and, like we said, the way that we are reporting the data, or the data we're collecting we don't feel is the right data right now. With the national travel survey, hopefully that will help, but, obviously, seeing the increase in funding year on year—as Stephen said, from 2018—we should hopefully next year or the year after see the benefits of active travel and the investment that has been made by Welsh Government. We're already seeing it from a secondary school point of view, from the data that Public Health Wales take where they question every single secondary school child. We'd like to see that replicated with primary schools so that we then have a better figure or a better picture of what's happening in schools and active travel to school. And then that national travel survey will hopefully fill that gap for the rest of Wales as well.

Okay. Any further thoughts or—? 

Yes, I would agree with Rhiannon. Often, in schemes we're involved in with Sustrans, we do monitoring and evaluation throughout the scheme, and on an individual scheme level, we often see big gains. We do a lot of work with schools and the average across the interventions we do with schools is a 10 percentage point increase in the amount of school journeys that have been walked, wheeled or cycled. So, on that very granular level we do see benefits and increases, but we haven't seen robust evidence to show that at a national level yet, and we hope that that will follow through when we've got more robust data.

Thank you. Ms Billingham, I've not seen you indicate. Do you wish to comment or not? 

I would just add to that—exactly the same thing, really. I think where interventions are being made you start to see improvements. It doesn't happen overnight; these things take time. We've been working with Welsh Government on a walk-to-school programme and we've seen a 54 per cent increase in active journeys last year alone. So, where there is targeted interventions, you start to see results. I think the data at population level doesn't reflect that.

Thank you. How effective has Transport for Wales and its developing role been on this agenda? 

I think they've been really effective in ensuring there's consistency across local authorities and the way they're reporting the amount of funding that they're having, and the monitoring and evaluation of that. I think last week or the week before, there was a conference of Transport for Wales Academi Teithio Llesol, which was an opportunity for local authorities to share best practice with each other about what works in their areas, and to share ideas on what they're doing. From a personal point of view, I work in active travel in England. We'll get ranked from a local authority level around our capability to deliver active travel, and I wonder whether that will be brought into Wales or not, I'm not sure, but that could be something that Transport for Wales looks at. 

So, I think they are effective in their role. There's always room for improvement everywhere, but I think, actually, where we are in Wales right now has a lot to do with what they've put in place to monitor and evaluate local authorities, and the support they give in order to help them select the best routes for funding. 

Any further thoughts? You don't have to answer every question if you don't want to, it's only if you wish to comment. 

Very quickly, at a macro level or policy level it makes so much sense that Transport for Wales have a growing responsibility for active travel. Every public transport journey starts with a walk or sometimes a cycle to access the bus stop or the train station, at both ends as well. So, it makes so much sense. I think it was only a year or two ago that the Minister at the time increased the importance of active travel in the remit for TfW. At a more operational level, at Sustrans, we have a good relationship with TfW, we work with them. A lot of my ex-colleagues, for example, work for TfW now; they've hired, they've got more capacity, more expertise from a range of people that they've hired, and we see them making a bigger impact. But I think, organisationally, they're still very dominated by, I would say, train—they started, obviously, as a train-operating company. I think they get it more and more—they've got more people, they've got more responsibility for this area. But, yes, I think the culture is slowly catching up to their new responsibilities—that's how I would phrase it and judge it.

Thank you. Again, Ms Billingham, do you want to add anything? No. That's great. I've got a few questions specifically for Ms Letman-Wade, in the context of the active travel board. What engagement did you and your members have with the development of the Welsh Government's new active travel delivery plan?

So, the delivery plan was presented to the board at a meeting last year, so we were able to make points on the active travel delivery plan. Of course, as a board, we would like it to go further, but we do think, initially, it is a good start in order to make sure that there is a strategy behind what we're looking to do in terms of active travel in Wales. We do discuss in meetings how the plan is being implemented and its success. We do know that, with the political will and the right amount of funding, active travel can go further in Wales.

In that context, given the comments in your annual report about cross-Government co-ordination and mainstreaming, and the plan's main focus on actions for Welsh Government transport teams and Transport for Wales—and I'm reading from your paper here—do you consider that the new plan goes far enough?

I think it's really important to make sure that we're not working in silos. Like we've said already, people are making journeys that could be multimodal, so it's not just about walking to the shop, it could be walking to school, or it could be getting on a train to get to work. It's about where we live, it's about the communities that we live in. So, it's not just about transport specifically, it's also about how do we work with planning more effectively, to ensure that cycling and walking routes are better within new developments. How do we work with education to ensure that we are making sure that routes to schools are better, or that there are better options? So, this has to be cross-departmental—it can't just be about transport. This is about most of the departments, I would say, in Government, and how we can improve people's health, getting more people walking et cetera. So, the plan is, like we said, a really good start, and we're looking forward to seeing how it develops over the next couple of years.

Given that some actions have been carried over from the 2016 plan, how will you be monitoring the plan's implementation, and how confident are you, and the other witnesses, that the plan will be delivered?

So, we often ask for progress on that plan. We do some scrutiny sessions in each of our board meetings, whether that be on specific bodies that the Welsh Government are funding, to look at whether or not the funding is effective and what the outcomes and outputs are of that funding. We've got two sub-groups of the board. So, one is the inclusivity sub-group, which looks specifically at how we can make active travel inclusive, which Stephen co-chairs with one of the independent board members. Then, myself and another board member chair the active travel to school sub-group of the board, so we're constantly tracking and changing what is needed in terms of that space. So, we have constant conversations with Welsh Government and colleagues who work in this space, to ensure that those elements of the plan especially, from our point of view, are being embedded and that we're going to hit targets and get more people travelling actively.

Okay. And on that last point, are there any further thoughts from the other two witnesses? No, that's fine—no need. In which case, can I pass over to Natasha Asghar?

Thank you so much, Chair. My questions are predominantly going to be to you, Ms Letman-Wade, if that's okay. You mentioned to my Chair about the board's inclusive active travel sub-group. From my understanding, it was unable to meet between 2023 and 2024 due to a lack of secretariat support. So, is it fully back up and running now, between 2024 and 2025, and if so, what's it going to be focusing on?

Do you mind if I put this to Stephen—

Yes, okay, go for it. That's absolutely fine.

—because he's the co-chair, so he has more information than me.

Yes, if you don't mind, Natasha, I'll take that one. Yes, you are right, we actually had our first meeting for a little while just last month. So, you may know that the active travel board was reconstituted; the membership for the whole board changed around about a year ago now, 18 months ago. With that, there was a change in personnel, I suppose, so for various reasons there was a delay. I co-chair it now with someone from the Royal National Institute of Blind People, and we've got a new membership, we've reached out to lots of organisations across Wales, lots of interest groups, to try and be as diverse as possible, to make sure we understand, and we've got expertise from all different points of view, and that's been the focus of what we've done.

So far, we've had the first meeting. We've made sure that we're fit for purpose, we've got a strong membership, we've gone over the terms of reference, and we've just started work planning now and making sure we've got a regular pattern of meetings. So, at the moment, we're planning to look at inclusive design. We've got a witness, or an external guest, planned for the next meeting, from TfW, who's very engaged with design, from a TfW angle. We've also got information coming about access barriers on cycle paths or shared-use paths, which prevent certain users coming towards them. So, yes, we're just developing that work programme, and we will be more regular now, going forward.

Good, I'm glad to hear it. So, from my understanding—you mentioned in one of your previous answers that a lot of members of staff from Sustrans have gone to TfW. The individual coming—are they an ex-employee of Sustrans, or are they someone totally independent from TfW?

Can you say that again, sorry?

You mentioned, in one of your previous answers, that TfW has taken a lot of people from Sustrans, and you also just mentioned now that, in your next meeting, you're going to have someone coming from TfW. Is that an ex-employee of Sustrans or someone completely new?

So, the design unit in TfW, the head, in fact, of the unit, is an ex-Sustrans employee. The member who is attending our sub-group—I'm not sure if she's his deputy, but she works in his team, and I think she's from Cardiff Council; she's not Sustrans. So, there's a range of people, but some are ex-Sustrans employees, yes.

Okay, fine. How, overall, does the active travel board see its role, given there's no actual formal accountability relationship with the delivery bodies and in what the auditor general's report has described as a 'crowded delivery landscape', as it stands?

We ensure that we do some scrutiny sessions with different bodies, to make sure that they are adhering to the agenda of active travel in Wales. We've got a totally independent board, and that board has obviously done its first annual report, but what we have done as well is created these sub-groups to ensure that there are specific areas that we are feeding into. In the active travel to school sub-group, for example, we're already working on the recommendations that we produced in the annual report with Welsh Government, to ensure that we've got a one-stop shop for schools, so it's not confusing in terms of who do they go to and what they're trying to do. We're trying to develop a strategy as well for active travel to school across Wales. So, those recommendations that we've put forward are already being seen, especially in that active travel to school group, because it's been going for around a year, so we're starting to see huge strides in that agenda.

Our messaging in scrutiny has also been a lot stronger. We've got people from all over, and different fields, that have got expertise across different landscapes, so that's proving to be really effective. One of our board members has written a report about access barriers, and we're already seeing some of those being removed in response to the report that has been written by him.

Okay. How—? Sorry, were you going to say something, Mr Cunnah?

Sorry, no.

Okay, that's fine. That's all right. How has the revised membership of the board impacted the effectiveness, and do you think that there is enough support to facilitate its work, going forward?

Yes, I think it's been really effective, actually, in terms of the independent members. So, we can scrutinise a lot more and actually hone in on different subject areas. I think, in our next board meeting, we're going to be looking at planning and what effect that has in terms of active travel and what do we think needs to change. Of course, we can only really make recommendations, and that is up to Welsh Government on whether or not they take those recommendations forward. We don't really have much power beyond that.

In terms of support, I would say it's really good, to be honest. We went through a little bit of a secretariat issue, but apart from that, we've managed to meet, we've got these sub-groups, we're taking things forward. So, I think, actually, in terms of ineffectiveness, it is working and we're able to be a lot more—I say 'critical', but I don't mean in a criticising way; I just mean we're able to scrutinise effectively.

Okay.

Natasha, Ruth Billingham would like to come in.

I just wanted to note that I'm not an independent member of the board, but I still attend, along with Stephen, on a rotating basis representing the sustainable transport group. As an observer, having attended lots of board meetings previous to its redesign, I would say that it has changed significantly. There does seem to be a lot more scrutiny, the outputs of the board seem much clearer and there seems to be much more of a plan. It does seem like it's a more effective board.

Thank you very much for that, Ms Billingham. How does the board understand the scope of its annual reporting in the context of reporting requirements on Welsh Ministers under the Act, as well as the Welsh Government's commitment to enhance its own reporting in response to the auditor general's recommendations given previously?

I think we see it as a really important step for us to be able to comment on the success or not of the previous year. I think it's a really good opportunity for us to take a moment and actually assess what has happened and whether or not we're making any good progress. In terms of the report itself, like I've said previously on the recommendations, some of those are being taken forward by the Welsh Government already, so it's showing that the opinion of the board is valued in terms of what we're looking to get going forward. Sorry, I can't remember the rest of the question.

That's fine. Basically, I asked in relation to the scope of your annual reporting in relation to the auditor general's recommendations. I just wanted to know the scope of your own reporting. That was pretty much the question. Fine. 

What status do the board's recommendations have, and is it expecting the Government to respond formally?

Like I said, in terms of the reporting side of it, we are expecting a response from the Welsh Government. We're already working on some of the recommendations, so we know that that response is being taken seriously. We've already met with the Minister to discuss our thoughts, and he's been quite open for us to write to him about the best way to increase the number of young people walking and cycling in Wales. So, it does hold quite high status within Government and with the Minister.

Great. I am going to move on to active travel spending, but before I do, I just want to ask you a question totally off the beaten track—and I'm sorry for that, everybody, because I know we are short for time, and I hope the committee will forgive me for this one. Based on one of the previous answers, which I asked you in relation to, obviously, who's going to be coming and speaking to the board et cetera, you mentioned it was going to be an ex-employee. I have a concern in the sense that it almost feels like an old school reunion, basically. If you're going to be bringing in your old colleagues to give you a talk about what's happening, it seems like a tea party to me, and quite frankly, that worries me, because that's a concern. TfW has been a concern for me and many of my colleagues from different parties across the board. So, what reassurance can you give me and the committee that this isn't just students marking their own homework, basically?

Is that specifically for—? Sorry, which—?

In relation to the active travel board, when we were talking about that, you mentioned that you have a person coming in to give you a talk from TfW, and you're going to be taking on board what the insight is going to be, moving forward with that. Like I said, that's had me slightly concerned, so I just want to know where we're heading with that.

What I would say is that, in Wales, we are quite a small nation and people do move between different organisations. That's not to say that the expertise isn't valued. For example, I think the lady that Stephen was referring to coming into the inclusivity group—is that what this is, yes—is an ex-employee of Cardiff Council, and has obviously moved on to work for TfW. I'm an ex-employee of Cardiff Council, but now I work in England. We do move around. But I think it's not about it being a team meet-up, et cetera; it's about valuing the opinions and the culture of each organisation and what they bring. We've got different organisations coming in that we probably haven't engaged with in the past. So, we're very much in talks with education. Previously, probably, in active travel, that didn't happen. We've never worked with any of them before, and probably won't work in education either, but we are making sure that we are attracting different departments in as well. I kind of understand your point, but at the same time, we're only a nation of 3 million people; we all move jobs and organisations.

I appreciate that element, but I'm just saying we haven't got active travel right here in Wales. I think we can all say that. We haven't nailed it. There are other places outside of Wales that have. So, do you bring people from outside, external sources, external bodies as well, to come in and try and guide us, or are you just focusing predominantly on Wales, Wales, Wales?

We always look over the border to see what they're doing more effectively, potentially, in different areas. We've got a conference, specifically on active travel to school, in March, and we will be looking at bringing in speakers from England to tell us what they're doing that's way different to what we're doing here in Wales. We often have conversations with Active Travel England to have a look at what they're doing. Obviously, the setup over in England is completely different to the setup in Wales, so we're having those conversations to ensure that what we're doing fits us, but also learning from what other people are doing. We've had conversations with Scotland about what they do in terms of monitoring and evaluation, and how we can lean on them for a bit of expertise as well. So, although, obviously, in Wales, we do have certain people that have moved from organisation to organisation, we do ensure that we are speaking to other nations as well. It's not just about Wales—it's about what's the UK doing effectively.

I'm going to ask you about active travel spending—. Sorry, Chair. 

Heledd Fychan, please.

You mentioned in your response that all you can do is make recommendations to the Welsh Government. You mentioned also that the Deputy First Minister has been very positive. Is that a step change? Because, obviously, the auditor general, in his report, was quite clear that progress has been slow. It must be a frustration for the board if you make recommendations and they're not taken forward.

I think, to date, there's not been a recommendation that hasn't been taken forward, in terms of this report. But I can see what you're saying in terms of that frustration. We would love to say that we've invested however many millions in active travel and so many more people are walking and cycling, but it's just not as easy as that, just because our data isn't as easily collected as we would hope. Hopefully, in the next couple of years, after we change the way we're collecting data, we can have that more positive message about what we're saying and how we've been developing. But yes, we're just not there right now, and that's the frustration.

You mentioned England and Scotland, but from my own visits I'm conscious of good practice outside the island of Britain. Do you have any engagement with other places in the world that have introduced this successfully?

For me, on a personal level, I've been in contact with colleagues over in Spain—obviously, the Netherlands do very well for active travel, and lots of different places in Europe—to look at what they're doing, and especially in terms of that multimodal transport. That's not just looking at walking and cycling, but how do things connect to the rail, the metros, the bus service, et cetera. Because, on the continent, generally, I find it a lot easier to travel in terms of bike, walking, then onto a bus or onto the metro, et cetera, and being able to get where you need to go. Specifically, to influence what we're doing in Wales, we look at the UK, because we've got some similar landscapes, I suppose, in different areas. But if we're looking at it more generally, then yes, we do have those links on the continent as well.

I'll just welcome Rhianon Passmore, who had given notice that she couldn't be here until a bit later. Rhianon, we haven't got to your questions yet, so you can relax. We've allocated you, just for the record, the questions under 9 and 10, so plenty of time to settle in. Natasha.

Thank you so much. What exactly is the active travel board looking for from the Welsh Government, considering its analysis that it would take until 2073 to deliver the active travel network that local authorities have mapped out? It's called for the Welsh Government to have

'the stamina and commitment to get the job done.'

That is based on funding. That figure there, that we won't get to where need to be until 2073, is based on the funding that we're getting year on year, and that is to build all the ATNs across Wales. For me, personally, it's about making those everyday journeys walkable and cyclable, reducing that car usage, especially around schools—so, looking at how we can encourage more children and young people to take up active travel. Some people are travelling half a mile. For some people, that is probably essential to drive, but, actually, from a health benefit, it would be a lot better if they could walk and cycle that half a mile journey to school. So, we're looking at where can we have the most impact, where is that impact going to be seen, and what journeys are able to be walkable and cyclable, because, obviously, in parts of rural Wales, that's not a reality. It's just about us being a bit more focused and about us being able to make those journeys easier for people—so, how do we get there. 

How has the active travel board arrived at its per-capita analysis of active travel spending, and which areas of expenditure does this include?

In terms of the comparison of how much is being spent by the Welsh Government to what’s being spent in England, both figures have come from the Department for Transport. It’s an example per-head figure, because it was quite difficult to compare like for like, because the funding is different, and the way we operate our transport is different as well. So, that’s how we’ve come to those figures. I think there are links, as well, in the report to where exactly those figures have come from in terms of referencing.

And how confident are you that, in comparing with other UK nations, you've been able to do so like for like?

Like I said, from a per-capita perspective, it is an example figure, so it does look like Wales is quite favourable. But, then, if we compared Wales to, for example, what London are doing, we wouldn’t be as effective, because London have invested millions, maybe billions, into active travel, and the amount of people travelling actively in London is a lot more than it is in Wales. So, if we’re going to compare country to country, then I think we’re doing okay in terms of spending. If we’re going to compare from city to city, or compare Wales with London, for example, or, I don’t know, let’s compare Cardiff and Manchester, then it might not be as effective.  

In my role here in the Welsh Parliament, I get hundreds upon hundreds of e-mails, probably every few months, in relation to Sustrans, and a lot of the public question where the money is going that’s been given to you. So, I’d like to ask you, personally, here today, what your views are on the current balance of Welsh Government expenditure between capital and revenue programmes overall or between spending on the active travel fund versus programmes like Safe Routes in Communities with its particular focus on schoolchildren.

I don’t think there’s enough revenue spend in Wales generally. It would be a lot better if we could get a lot more revenue in, because that means we could increase the capability of officers in Wales and employ more people in this space, to be able to reach our goals, et cetera. We know already that there are constraints within local authorities, that they just don’t have the people to be able to deliver these programmes, but if they were to have the people, that revenue spend, then things would increase dramatically.

In terms of safe routes to schools, my personal view—because, obviously, my interest is in schoolchildren—is that it should be more. We should be looking at the future generation and how we can influence their travel behaviour before they get to a stage where it’s in them that they want to drive. So, for me, personally, I would want to see that increased.

On the Sustrans stuff, it’s probably not for me to comment. I don’t know enough about the backstory or how much specific funding they get. It’s probably something that I'd need to look up and have a look at. But I would say that, if we can increase capabilities within local authorities, then we would see an increase. I’ll just give one example for you. Cardiff have got their own sustainable travel team for schools, and we’re seeing an upward trajectory in the amount of children walking and cycling to school in Cardiff. It’s not an accident; they’ve invested heavily in having a team that invest in walking and cycling to school, and we’re seeing the upward trend. So, if local authorities were able to get more revenue spend, they would be able to then develop these programmes and be able to do these kinds of things.

In terms of the active travel fund, it needs to be a multi-year funding process. Having the one-year programme is quite tricky for local authorities. It’s quite difficult to get to a stage where you’re putting that funding bid forward for that specific project and if you don’t get the money that project doesn’t get funded. So, it’s a lot of work for local authorities every single year. I worked in Cardiff, so I know the demands on local authorities. But having multi-year funding means that you can then develop a pipeline of schemes, get them through the funding period, and you know, for the next three or four years—whatever the funding length would be—that that’s what your concentrating on and you’re able to develop a better network.

You mentioned initially you’d like funding for more staff, more everything. What’s your magic number?

Oh, God. I would say—

We're public accounts—we like to know about figures and money. So, how much is your dream amount? What would you like? To make all these projects come true that you've just spoken of, what's your number? If I go to Mike and say, 'Mike, I want to buy a handbag', the first thing he's going to say to me is, 'How much is the handbag?' So, I'm going to ask you: what's your magic number?

I'd say, 'Try Oxfam.' [Laughter.]

But this is public money, so you're going to ask me. 

Personally, I would like to see a 50 per cent increase on what we currently have.

All right. Thank you. 

Do you mind if I come back on a couple of points that have come up? If you don’t mind, I have a slight anecdote on the internationalism, which you mentioned, Natasha, and the comparability of data that you mentioned. So, Sustrans administers something called the walking and cycling index, where we commission independent research in over 20 cities across the UK and Ireland. And, in Wales, we've only got Cardiff that is part of that index. But, actually, the figures show—and we use the same methodology for every city—that Cardiff has got the highest rates of walking and cycling to schools. It's over 60 per cent, actually, the figures are showing at the moment. Now, that's just one part of Wales and the picture is mixed across all of Wales, I know, but when we do stakeholder meetings—I went to one recently—all the city leads from Ireland are really interested in our work in Wales, about what we do well for walking to schools. In Dublin, for example, they're in the 20s, the comparable figure for the walking and cycling rates to school. So, some things we do do well. I don't think that we should underplay the stuff that we do do well, and it is noticed internationally as well. 

Just on the revenue spending, I think you're absolutely right, Natasha. The figure I've got is—. I mentioned the figure per person of £23 before, and only 44p of that is revenue; most of it is capital. And that's just not the same in other parts of the transport world. So, buses and trains have a higher proportion of revenue spending to keep the show on the road. Something that we noticed, especially at a local authority level, is that they've got relatively good access to capital funding now to do new schemes, as we've been talking about, better than in previous years, but it's difficult for them from what are tight local authority budgets to match that with the expertise, the officers to be able to deliver good schemes, because they do struggle to fund it on an annual basis. So, it's definitely an issue. I think we've seen some improvements—we mentioned Transport for Wales having the new team, for example, which we hope over time they'll build up and be able to lend that capacity and lend that expertise to local authorities. So, that's a good development, but it still is a problem. 

I have to come back to Sustrans—obviously, I work for Sustrans. I'd be really interested in seeing what your constituents are saying to you. We don't get that amount of mail in our own inbox.

Oh, feel free. Any time you want. I have a team who are literally inundated at times, so feel free. They are more than happy to pass on the casework to you if you want it. 

Okay. I'd really be grateful to understand what the issues are, because, obviously, we're a charity—a relatively small charity in the grand scheme of things. Our work in Wales is only a small part of what we do as well, so—

No, for the record, you may consider yourself a small charity, but the Welsh Government listens to you a lot, particularly when it comes to transport. We all are fully aware of that.

We are the largest charity in this area—

Exactly. 

—in walking and cycling. 

And they listen to you on a lot of things. The questions that arise often are the funding that you receive, for the output that people receive. These are the questions that are posed to me. And questions do come about, which does make us question everything, from integrity, to productivity, to the outcomes, to the future plan. Everything gets covered in the e-mails I'm sent. So, if you want to have a look, by all means. I can inundate you with them.

We'd really be grateful to understand the concerns. 

One thing I honestly would like to say to you with regard to feedback: I appreciate you work for Sustrans, you've got to say nice things about, but one thing—and Mike Hedges actually said this to me earlier—is that you mentioned Cardiff as a success story, and that might be great. I represent south-east Wales. I represent Blaenau Gwent, I represent Merthyr, I represent Newport. Places like Newport, obviously, are flat and it's great to have things like that. In places like Monmouth, okay, you have variations there, it's rural—there are issues with consistency and having active travel everywhere. The active travel plans often don't take into account people's circumstances—disabled people, elderly people looking after children. You talk about schools being the focus. A lot of young children live with their grandparents, they live with sick and elderly parents, they're carers for their parents or loved ones. That's not taken into account on some occasions, and that really does need to be looked at, particularly with the policies that you're making, going forward—in my opinion, anyway. Thank you so much, Chair.

Okay. Thank you. Whilst you can pick over that, if you will, my children are grown up, but our local primary school initially was a nice walk away, but then it was relocated and it was no longer a nice walk away, and it was well over a mile down a very remote country lane and they couldn't use that, so I had to drive them to school. So, it's horses for courses, I suppose. But, we'll move on. Mike Hedges, you have some questions.

Thank you. I want to talk about the active travel fund. It's the largest single area of dedicated expenditure. Could it be spent better?

Yes. [Laughter.]

All right. I'll follow it up with 'how?'

I suppose it's looking at what the priority and integration is of that scheme and what we're looking at in terms of increasing the number of people being able to actively travel in that area and whether or not, for example—. You talked about your specific constituency in Swansea and that stadium example. Well, if that is a really quick win and a quick route, is that more effective, potentially, than anything else that they are going to propose? I don't know because I don't know the ins and outs of the active travel network map in Swansea, but could we just be spending that money a little bit more effectively—where are the priority routes, where are we going to have the most bang for our buck in terms of the spending?

Sometimes, the expenditure will be quite large for a small distance, but that opens up a whole area. Active travel plans that I've seen, they're very good at long, straight bits where there's no difficulty and then they come to a halt. I can't remember which it is, but it's the one that ends by Ynystawe Cricket Club and then starts from across the road from Ynystawe Cricket Club—a gap of less than 50 yards, but you have to cross Park Road to get there. It's these little gaps that dissuade people from taking their children on these journeys because you've got to get them across what is a reasonably busy road.

And let's not forget as well that these ATBMs are very high-level documents, so, actually, when you get on the ground and look at the detailed design of some of these routes, actually, they might not be feasible. It’s about making sure that it's what the public want, about whether it’s going to be used, and obviously about that local knowledge. So, you said there about those different routes in Swansea— that knowledge is key as well in order to make sure that we’re looking at the right priorities for these routes and that they’re going to be used.

Moving on from that, there are lots of different people spending money: the local authority is spending money, there’s the active travel money, there’s Sustrans spending money. I mean, is it all co-ordinated properly?

So, that's one thing we've been looking at—that co-ordination of what is going on. There are so many different organisations working within this sector and within this space, and ensuring effective co-ordination is one of the things that we’re looking at on the board, just because, as a member of the public who might not be involved in this space or have a lot of knowledge of this space, it’s quite hard to understand who’s looking after what and how to potentially get whatever you need or bring an idea forward. So, we’re trying to improve that element of it, just because there are a lot of different organisations that work in this space and we want to make sure that that co-ordinated approach is working for the public in terms of what we’re doing and especially from a schools’ perspective. We’ve got lots of different organisations that are going in to work with schools and we want to make sure that that co-ordinated approach is having the end goal of increasing walking and cycling to school.

A question to Sustrans: I know, in Swansea, you've got a very large organisation in terms of volunteers who are very active. I know that, because like Natasha, they write to me fairly regularly, but they're very active. Have you got that across Wales or is it in the big cities that we've got lots of enthusiastic cyclists who are very good at getting at local authorities, very good at getting at people like us, as opposed to some of the more rural areas, where you might have fewer people per square mile?

Yes. We're very fortunate, especially for cycling, but also for walking—there are lots of passionate hobbyists, I suppose, or people who really take a passion in their bikes and going on trips and, ultimately, seeing the wonderful countryside we've got in Wales, and so on and so forth.

You may know, we founded and were the custodians of the National Cycle Network, so a lot of our volunteers are very focused on that and they help us to audit the signage to make sure that's right and make sure it's maintained, and so on and so forth. And not even, if you like, the network—they're doing litter picks on it as well. So, it's very community focused and we're very fortunate to have that amount of people who care about what are, ultimately, local paths and community resources.

It's spread across Wales, to be honest, Mike. I haven't got the figures in front of me to say how many are in Swansea, how many are in Cardiff, how many are in rural areas, but we have got lots of supporters all across Wales and some who pay us membership fees and donate, and some who just go out to do the litter picks locally, and it's really heartening actually.

That's very helpful. My knowledge is Swansea, which I have quite a good knowledge of, but of what is happening in Carmarthenshire, I know very little, despite the fact that it’s almost next door. So, I think it is useful to know that these things are happening everywhere, because there is a tendency—I'm one of these who holds the view—to say, 'Well, if it's happening here, it must be happening everywhere else', and I'm very pleased to hear you say that it is happening everywhere else.

And the final question from me is: how are you making sure that the revenue allocations to support active travel are not being duplicated?

In terms of what the Welsh Government spends on revenue, yes?

It's not being duplicated by the local authority, it's not being duplicated by voluntary organisations. I'm very familiar with the Heart of Wales line, for example, and the Heart of Wales line supporters do a huge amount of work to support that route. But what I'm trying to get at is, is money being spent, and then somebody else is doing something very similar almost in the same place?

What opportunities do you see for streamlining of funding?

Yes.

I suppose there is an argument there that there are multiple organisations working in the school space. The only knowledge I have and I can really talk about is Cardiff's active travel team, the schools team. Sustrans also work in that space. But I think there's an agreement that they don't work in the same schools, because, obviously, that's duplication of funding in terms of what they're doing. Apart from that, I've got no knowledge of duplication, but it's something we can definitely look at and write to you, if that's what you'd be interested in.

Are Sustrans going to answer this?

Yes, specifically from our point of view in Sustrans, in terms of expenditure on infrastructure, we don't actually have a lot in terms of the overall budget in Wales. We do get a core grant from the Welsh Government that is focused on the national cycle network, which we founded and are custodians of. That's around about £700,000. Really, in very few instances would there be a need or reason for it to be duplicated, because, if you like, the motivations and the policy drivers are different, so most local authorities spend money on active travel according to their own active travel network maps. Sometimes, the route is the same as the national cycle network, but the national cycle network is much more extensive and it's regional. It goes all the way across Wales—it's 1,500 miles. Not all of it is local authority owned as well, so, that core grant, we can use it to support, sometimes, private landowners. We own about 2 per cent of it ourselves. Other parts of it will be owned by people like Natural Resources Wales, or whoever.

So, where there is an occasional need to work with local authorities, often it's complementary, I would say, rather than conflicting. I'm not sure how good an example this is, but you will be aware there's a bridge across the Taff that was damaged in storm Dennis and again in storm Bert. So, that one, for example, unfortunately, was rebuilt mostly with active travel funding, but the capital grant that Rhondda Cynon Taf received wasn't quite enough to build with, so we topped it up, if you like, with the core funding we receive from the Welsh Government to maintain a national cycle network, to make sure that that could be built. Obviously, there are bigger questions again about it having been damaged again. So, where we do use it on similar schemes, it's usually complementary to help schemes get over the line.

I'd remind Members and witnesses we've only got 32 minutes, technically, left, so can you please be as concise as possible? Ms Billingham, you, I think, would like to comment.

Yes, a very small, quick point just on duplication around walk-to-school promotion and behaviour change, in that, obviously, Sustrans are running the active journeys programme and we've got a grant from the Welsh Government to run the walk-to-school programme, and we make sure that the project managers are talking to each other so there's not duplication. So, we make sure it's planned well.

Okay. Natasha, do you have a question? No. Mike, have you any further questions?

No, I'm finished, Chair. Thank you.

Can I just ask—?

I've just got a small question, if I may, Chair. It's just really brief. In terms of the interface that you've talked about, you mentioned that you were potentially doing some work on joining those dots up, and in regard to comments here from my colleagues about the public interface, looking at the spaghetti of choices available to them as to who they go to for their particular concerns, what is the timeline on that, in terms of drawing together, perhaps, a single front door around that? Perhaps you could write to us if there isn't anything specific, because I think it's really important that the general public are able to access who is doing what, and, as an active travel board, I would presume you would be the go-to body to be able to co-ordinate that.

Yes. We'll write to you once it's complete.

Okay.

We're in the process of doing it now.

Brilliant. Thank you, Chair.

When you write to us—as there isn't time now—perhaps you could also just briefly indicate what you'd like to see from a demonstrator town, which I believe is proposed.

Yes.

Thank you. I'll therefore move over to Heledd Fychan, who has some questions for you.

There are a few ways to answer, I suppose. I think I mentioned in an earlier answer that the work that we do with schools—Living Streets, of course, have also got a programme, which they mentioned, where they intervene with schools on a case-by-case basis—the evidence is that if children are encouraged, if parents are encouraged and if the infrastructure is improved around the school, and the infrastructure is improved in the school in terms of storage and things like that—often it's the teachers as well, if they're trained, if they're advocates for active travel—then we can see big increases in active travel.

Every school is different. The Chair mentioned his local school, which has moved a mile away to a more difficult location. So, we know that is the case as well. And bus routes, nothing in what we would do would—. We wouldn't advocate that bus routes are impacted, because I think they're complementary. Our charitable goal, if you like, which I think is similar to Welsh Government's goal, is to encourage more people to travel by public transport and by active travel and fewer in cars. So, I don't think there's necessarily a conflict; there shouldn't be a conflict between buses and active travel in that way.

Diolch.

Yes, I think it's a massive problem, the resourcing that local authorities have. We've mentioned funding and the revenue/capital funding split, but it's also skills shortages as well, and it's not just in active travel, it's in lots of industries in Wales, and it's especially impactful on rural Wales. I'm aware of one rural local authority in north Wales, I was speaking to the manager just last year, and he actually did have revenue funding to employ I think it was four or maybe five people in his team. He only had one who was local, if you like, and lived in the local authority; the other was a remote worker in a city in England, and he couldn't hire people with the skills to fill the other vacancies. So, there's a skills issue as well as a funding issue, really, to make sure that local authorities are well resourced and can deliver decent schemes.

Do you think Welsh Government could be doing anything to support the skills shortages?

Yes, it has started, to be fair. Via Transport for Wales, it has started and it's tried to expand. So, it's the got the team itself in Transport for Wales, who are—I think it's a team of 10 people now—designers and can, effectively, be subcontracted by local authorities to help them deliver schemes. But it's also got an academy that it has now launched, to upskill local authority officers. So, I think it's proof that Welsh Government has recognised this problem and it is responding to it. But, for example, the team in Transport for Wales is only less than I think it's about six months or a year old now. The academy—I'm not sure how much work it's done—has only just started as well. So, it's hard to say what the impact will be of the initiatives that have been launched now.

And obviously, that limits, then, in terms of being able to spend even the money available, because we've seen some local authorities not able to spend the budget available, even though there's a need. So, a direct correlation there.

Yes.

If I may, just in terms of Sustrans, then, and your ability—. If we're looking at the cycling network, national cycling network, how do you work with local authorities? Is that also restricted if you don't have enough staff within local authorities, so you're not able to work equitably across Wales then?

It can be a problem, yes. And different local authorities—. We've talked about capacity, about resources; to some extent, it's different attitudes as well, and that can be political—at an officer level or a strategic, political level. So, the engagement is always going to be different with different organisations in general, including local authorities. But, on the whole, we have good relationships with all local authorities in Wales. The national cycle network goes through every single local authority. It also goes through every single constituency, apart from Wrexham, actually, in the current Senedd constituencies.

So, it's really mixed, to be honest, Heledd. Sometimes—. I mentioned before that we've got core funding, and where we find that there are log jams we do have a relatively modest ability to fund it ourselves. Obviously, it needs the agreement of the local authority if it's local authority land. Most of the national cycle network is local authority owned. And other times—. We consult with local authorities, in terms of the active travel network maps. At times, we would realign the national cycle network. It wouldn't just be a case of helping, supporting, pleading with local authorities to work with us; if they've got their own priority, and it's parallel to our existing route, for example, we would realign the national cycle network to make sure that it's the best standard and what the local authority's own priority is. So, it's mixed, the picture of how we work with them and our own responses. 

Thank you. I would comment that I've been part, for example, of the campaign in Flintshire for nine years to remove barriers on the coastal path, working with disabled people and local groups and Sustrans, who have been part of the coalition, but it still took us nine years to turn objections from council officers into agreement from council members. So, there is a limit to the influence of all of us, but, together, even though it takes many years, we can make some progress. I discovered Sustrans alone does not have a magic wand necessarily, just because it advocates for something. Very briefly, given the increased emphasis on regional transport plans, what risks and opportunities are presented by corporate joint committees' roles in this?

Of course, there is a risk that funding could go elsewhere. So, if we're not looking at specific active travel funding, it could get caught up in these CJCs and end up being spent on potholes, for example, rather than active travel. But it is obviously an opportunity for, potentially, some local authorities to get more funding in active travel, if that's what the region decides is best for that region. There needs to be responsibility around walking and cycling, so, within the terms of reference for the CJCs, they need to be able to say that walking and cycling is a priority. But we also need to be looking at outcomes, rather than inputs, when we look at that funding. So, there are a couple of risks there, but there is also an opportunity for that funding to be increased, potentially, if that's, from a regional level, what's needed. 

Any other thoughts? 

Yes. Obviously, we've focused a lot in the last few questions about the active travel fund and about the current, if you like, stream of funding and the environment in terms of how active travel schemes are delivered—I think the CJCs potentially could change a lot of that. We’ve heard from Ken Skates, starting in the summer and across various committees and briefings he’s given to the active travel board, that the active travel fund is likely to be completely disbanded or discontinued, and there’ll be a lot more grant funding directly to the CJCs to then set their own regional priorities. So, potentially a big change, I suppose.

As Rhiannon mentioned, probably at the moment it’s easier to see the risks than the opportunities. I mentioned at the very beginning that, for me, the big difference for active travel and the progress we’ve made is related to the level of funding. The active travel fund, for all that we could improve it, it is hypothecated, so local authorities have to spend that money on active travel schemes. We can argue, 'Are they doing it well enough and could they do it better?', and of course they could. But if all that funding is removed and delegated to the CJCs, the risk is that it will be smaller or almost non-existent, the amount of money that is dedicated to active travel. We just don’t know, frankly. So, that’s the big risk.

Opportunities. I mean, I actually think the active travel Act, to some extent, is successful, but it is quite restrictive as well. So, the active travel network maps are very focused on urban communities and designated towns, and there’s a good reason for that, for utility journeys, and there’s a higher density of people, but going back to some of the work we do, some of the people who come to Wales, visitors as well who like to cycle, a lot of cycling, for example, and walking in Wales is naturally rural. People want to go to rural locations to visit, to spend their time, to get outdoors, and that currently is not funded at all with active travel funding. I think if there was more regional decision making, there might be more investment in it. This is a bit of a wish list of possible opportunities. But if the CJCs create their own priorities, it could be better for rural communities, would be my sense of an opportunity for walking and cycling in Wales.

Thank you. Ms Billingham.

I would agree with Stephen there about the risks in that, currently, we have the active travel fund, which is hypothecated funding, which we know will be spent on walking and cycling, and I think there is the risk that that will get lost with the move to the regional approach through CJCs. We’d want the Welsh Government sustainable transport hierarchy adhered to when considering infrastructure projects and what needs to be maintained, making sure that walking and cycling are at the top of that, so that that priority continues. But there are some risks. There are also opportunities, though, aren’t there, in terms of joining things up and economies of scale? So, potentially, there are some opportunities, but it’s about making sure we get it right.

Thank you very much indeed. There are no more questions on this section. Can I bring in Rhianon Passmore?

Thank you very much. Very briefly, I think it was you, Rhiannon, who mentioned how we deal with some Valleys communities that have got very narrow streets where it's impossible really to design in interventions around active travel. In those sorts of scenarios, bearing in mind the comments that we’ve made about the depletion over the last 14 years of local authority expertise and capacity, which I think Stephen spoke to as well, is there ever then any audit in terms of saying, 'Right, it’s impossible to do x, we will now suggest that this area needs to be prioritised for public transport intervention'? Does that ever happen? Briefly.

I suppose, at board level, it’s probably not something that we would look at. But I know, since the new UK Government have come in, that bus and train travel is obviously more of a focus for them. So, I think things will change. I know that the transport Minister, Ken Skates, has asked us to look at how we get people to buses and trains from an active travel perspective. So, it is our focus now, but it—

So, in that sense, are you joined up with that agenda, or are you just solely focusing on how you interact?

We will be, yes. We will be looking at how people can actually get to a bus and a train from an active travel route, yes.

Okay, that's great. I'm sorry, I just wanted to ask that particular question.

Unlike my colleagues, I haven’t been inundated with people talking about Sustrans, but I have had conversations and discussions on the impacts of some of the projects that you’ve had, particularly with those who are visually impaired and disabled, who have said that some of the interventions that have occurred have been quite negative, in the sense that they haven't had dropped kerbs, et cetera, et cetera. What sort of perspective would you like to offer to this committee around how you are making the mitigations that you're putting in suitable for all in our community? I am concerned that that may not be happening.

This is at a very local level in a way, and it goes back to the question that Mike raised before about these gaps, especially for people who walk, and people who are disabled, there are lots of very difficult challenges. I'm aware of people who use a wheelchair who are, effectively, locked in their house, because there's a lack of a dropped kerb just on their own street. 

Sorry, I'm speaking specifically, for instance, if we put a cycle lane in, and therefore that wheelchair will have to cross over that cycle lane into that next space, and there is more concern because the positive interventions that have been placed in may or may not have been planned to have those inclusive elements within them.

I think it's important that any scheme that gets developed is in conjunction with groups, whether that would be the Royal National Institute of Blind People, any other groups, to guide what we're doing. I know—I can only talk about this, because I live in Cardiff, so I'm aware of this myself—there is a junction at the end of Colchester Avenue where a visually impaired girl actually took the designers on a walk with her, so they were able to then understand that journey that she was making, and she was regularly taking that junction. So, the whole junction has been redesigned, not specifically for her, but generally for people, so they're able to access—

So, where does that learning then cascade, because you can't do that on every single route?

I think there's—. We talked about—. TfW have got their Academi Teithio Llesol, which is the learning development thing for local authorities. So, it's about sharing that best practice within the local authorities, and not just internally in a local authority. It's about sharing that practice across Wales. So, that group or that academy gives that option for us to have those conversations.

Okay. It would be really interesting to know what sort of audit there is of interventions that have already been made in this terms of this area, which seems very much mainstreamed over many decades. So, it doesn't seem appropriate, if this is the case—and I'm sure it is the case from the contacts that I have had—that we are building in challenges for those who need to have those challenges removed. 

I'm going to move on. In terms of monitoring and the evaluation of data, what is the sort of data? I'm not sure if—. Is it Ms Billingham on screen? She may want to add to this, Chair. What sort of data would you like to see the new national travel survey collect? And would it be beneficial for this to align with and support local authority analysis? That's a bit of a leading question, really.

I think, for us, there's a number of things we want to see in the national travel survey. We want to make sure that it includes walk-to-school rates, walk-to-work rates, everyday short walking routes over the course of a week for an adult. I think it's really important for us that walk-to-school rates for different age groups are included in that, and disaggregating primary level to infants and juniors, so that we've got a really clear baseline of where we're at going forward.

Thank you very much, unless anybody else wants to comment. No. Now, in terms of what you, the active travel board, are hoping to see from Welsh Government in response to your recommendations about school data.

We know already that—. I don't think you were here when I was talking about the fact that Public Health Wales have got a really effective survey that happens in secondary schools—it's called SHRN, the School Health Research Network. They survey secondary schools every two years about their habits, and we are seeing an upward trajectory in the number of people walking and cycling to school in areas where investment in active travel has taken place. We want to see that replicated in primary schools, so we get that really robust data, and that will give us a better picture then of what is happening within active travel in Wales. Currently, the way that we're collecting data—. Well, actually, if I'm being totally honest, it was quite difficult for us to get a figure for walking rates to school—to primary school especially.

So, do you see that coming directly from schools and from local authorities in terms of—?

Yes. So, yes, Public Health Wales directly to schools.

Okay. Thank you. In terms of how you believe Welsh Government should frame future active travel indicators in terms of the measurements and targets, how do you see that shifting in order that this data is actually informing future strategy as well as retrospectively monitoring it?

I think, first of all, we need to ensure we're collecting the right data and that it's robust enough for us to be able to make comments about its progress, which at the moment it's not at that level. 

What is missing?

I think we're missing a Wales-wide picture. We were talking earlier about how the active travel fund really, or the investment in walking and cycling since the active travel Act, has only really come in since 2018, so we're seeing a little bit of a lag in terms of the effect that that spending has had currently. And obviously COVID in the middle of that has potentially skewed some of that data, so we're hoping in the next few years that we are going to see the difference that the investment has made.

In regard to those gaps in that data and the selection, the smorgasbord of bodies that we have in front of us and beyond, would you say that the current offer of all of the organisations, including your good selves, that are dealing in this space is too crowded? Do you think it should be streamlined? I am conscious it's Christmas coming up, but overall if you're dealing with strategy and a limited public purse and that direction of travel, wearing, potentially, a Welsh Government hat, would it be better to just say, ‘Right, we're going to start again throw it all up and come up with a new body’? You may not want to answer that question, but have a think about it. What would you offer in a response to that? Or do you feel it's fit for purpose, what we currently have?

There is always improvement to be made. That's what I personally think. I'm probably not going to answer the rest of that question, but—

It's a difficult question for you to answer, but in terms of what's missing, what would make it work better then? Perhaps that's a kinder way to—

I'll just refer to my own organisation, Sustrans. We've existed since the late 1970s—

I'm not asking you to defend your organisation.

—way before devolution, and way before the active travel fund came into existence, for example, and dare I say that when the active travel fund ends next year or so, we'll still be in Wales, we'll still be here. But actually Wales is only a small part of our operation, right? We're a large charity. It's in the region of 10 per cent of our employees, maybe even less, who actually work in Wales. We started working with the Republic of Ireland recently as well, if you like, internationalising a bit more. So, I think we'll always be here, whatever Welsh Government policy is. We’ll always be here. 

What needs to happen, then, to make what we have currently be optimum in terms of the work that you do? Is it more money?

There is an argument that more money and more political will would obviously increase the numbers able to actively travel. From an active travel to schools point of view, one of the other independent members and I chair a group that brings in all the bodies that work specifically on active travel to school, and we're looking at how we streamline that. We're looking, effectively, at the offer and what the offer needs to be to make it more effective. So, we are looking at that, the strategising. I can't be very specific on figures right now, but it's definitely something that we could potentially have a conversation about again in terms of what we're looking to do and the strategy going forward. So, yes, it is happening and we are looking at how we can be more effective.

Okay. Thank you. Thank you, Chair. 

Thank you. To build on that a fraction, I’d just like to hear a little bit more about particularly Sustrans and Living Streets, how you built monitoring and evaluation into the funded projects you have, and the extent you can demonstrate positive results accordingly. 

I'll start on that, if you don't mind, Chair. Pretty much every concept we have, there's an element of monitoring and evaluation in it. Some of our work is purely monitoring and evaluation. To go back to the barriers that you mentioned, Chair, in your own neck of the woods in Flintshire, we're in discussion with Flintshire council at the moment, for example, to look at the impact that the removal may have, to monitor before and then post removal, and to see what impact their welcome decision will have. So, some of what we do is specifically on that, and all the projects where we do delivery, for most of it we have a contractual obligation to do it. We have our own team. Again, we're much wider than Wales. So, within Sustrans we have a research and monitoring unit, so we have specialists in this domain. Some of those are seconded specifically to Wales, so they're very familiar with the political and local landscape and the requirements in Wales. I could talk specifically about individual projects—the active journeys project we do, for example, which is the schools intervention project; we have an annual report for that. At the end of the three-year programme, we had a final programme report, and that was very detailed in terms of the situation in the schools before intervention, the work that we did and post intervention—across the piece, really, both at school level and across the whole programme. Obviously, we'll always fulfil our contractual obligations, but, beyond that, we feel that we're very strong on that. We have a specific team that looks at monitoring and evaluation.

Just in that context, I was present at the meetings with North Wales Police that confirmed the objections made in their name were invalid in terms of monitoring, going forward. If you want to discuss that at any point, let me and the others who attended those meetings know, and we'll give you the factual information that we received. But Living Streets, do you have any comments on that particular point—not Flintshire but the monitoring and evaluation. 

I don't know about Flintshire. So, yes, we receive one grant from Welsh Government to work on walking to school. For those of you who don't know about it, we have our WOW Travel Tracker, which is a primary school intervention that allows children to clock, monitor how they got to school that day, whether that's walk, cycle, scoot, in the car, et cetera, and we provide incentives for active travel. So, the whole scheme is based on a monitoring framework, as it were. When we start working with a school, we'll go in, we'll take a baseline, then, obviously, the daily modes are recorded by the children, and then we can feed back improvements on a school basis, a local authority basis and, obviously, the whole of Wales basis for that particular project for Welsh Government. We've got an impact and evaluation manager who oversees that work here in Living Streets, and then it's all put together in a report that regularly goes to Welsh Government.

Okay, thank you. We'll move on to the concluding questions. We're two minutes over, so we'll only be five minutes maximum over, unless you wish to give very long answers, of course. So, in short for each of you, what three things do you believe most need to change to realise your and the Welsh Government's active travel ambitions? 

So, for me, it would be prioritised funding, a focus on children and young people and getting better data. 

Mr Cunnah. 

Can I repeat? 

You can repeat the same ones if you want. [Laughter.] 

I suppose, for me, we've mentioned a lot on funding. It can vary from year to year, of course, and budgets can change, but I think it's important to have a commitment to reliable and consistent funding so that there can be a future look—we've mentioned a further pipeline—so that schemes can be prioritised and developed over time. I think political leadership is always important. In the Welsh Government, generally, we've been fortunate in active travel in the last few years. Wales has been seen politically to be at the forefront of many of these issues in terms of its policy direction. I think it's important that that continues. We've had a change of First Minister, a change of Cabinet Secretary just this year. We've got elections coming up in 2026, so I think political leadership is vital, really, for any policy area, including this one. 

And the last thing I'd mention, which we haven't really touched on a lot, is planning policy. I often see, for example—. There are lots of examples I can think of where you've got an active travel funded scheme and it's either next to a new estate or close to a new estate, and the new estate is just not as good as the new scheme, if you like. So, for me, if we're building new stuff, all the active travel guidance that we've got, that should be integrated into planning so that the new stuff is of the top standard to begin with, which isn't quite there at the moment, I don't think.

Thank you. And Ms Billingham. 

Obviously, we've talked about funding a lot this morning and we'd want that to be multi-year, with active travel as a key priority as part of that. I'd want to see targets set following the national travel survey for Wales, but also by local authority or the regions. And I agree with Steve: it's about looking wider at active travel. We've talked a little bit about how it's sometimes seen that there's a silo, and how we make sure that planning is included, health, and how we're working with the NHS is an important one—so, working across departments, and also looking at the barriers that people are currently facing. We know, for example, that pavement parking is a massive issue; 80 per cent of parents would be more likely to walk to school if there wasn't pavement parking. So, it's looking at the broader guidance and legislation, as well as just the active travel fund and the other things that affect it.

Finally, do you have any other significant issues that you haven't had the opportunity to raise so far that you would like to raise now, and if so, what?

Nothing in particular, Chair, thank you.

No. Okay. Well, that brings our questions to an end, unless Members have any final thoughts. No. So, again, diolch, thank you very much for attending committee this morning. As you would expect, we will copy a transcript of today's meeting to you, giving you the opportunity to comment before the published version is made available. That brings the session to an end, so travel home well. I won't ask you how you're travelling home, or back to your offices, or wherever you're continuing your work.

By bicycle.

I can see one of you, I think, probably is working in a home office already. [Laughter.]

Thank you.

Diolch yn fawr.

Thank you.

Okay, Members, I propose, in accordance with Standing Order 17.42(ix), the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of today's meeting. Are all Members content? I see that all Members are content, in which case I would be grateful if you could take us into private session.