Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru

Thank you very much, Chair. I think Trydan Gwyrdd Cymru is a really, really exciting opportunity for us here to do something differently in Wales. We’ve set Trydan some specific goals in terms of what we would like them to achieve. So, we’ve set a target of developing at least 250 MW of new renewable energy generation capacity by 2030, and then an additional 750 MW of new capacity by 2040. So, that makes, obviously, the target of 1 GW capacity. We envisage that that would be largely onshore wind developments, just by the very nature of it being on the Welsh Government woodland estate. So, those are the targets that we’ve set.

At the moment, Trydan is in the process of developing the projects and so, at the moment, is looking at priority sites that we could develop on, and so on. I think there are around five at the forefront of those projects at the moment. I think they’ve been set some quite stretching targets, but, of course, we have confidence that we’ll be able to achieve those.

And do you see a role for the private sector in delivering some of that ambition, working with Trydan?

I think there certainly could be a role for the private sector, potentially through joint ventures. We will, I think, be looking at a site-by-site approach to those, so some might be developed wholly by the Welsh Government, through Trydan, and it might, in other cases, be a case of developing alongside private sector partners. I’ll just pause to see if Ed has anything else to add on that particular point.

Absolutely. I think the business model that Trydan has set up is that they will progress all the sites through the planning process, to get a consented site, because that’s a real good opportunity to get the development gain and it’s about trying to retain as much of that benefit as possible. And then, as we're working through the business case, it's very much the longer you keep the projects in public ownership, the more control you’ve got over it, the more control you’ve got over the income flows. But I think there are, obviously, constraints around how much Trydan can take forward in terms of the availability of capital—you know, these are big schemes, big utility schemes, scale projects. So, I think that’s where some of the partnership opportunities with the private sector will come in. So, they’re having regular discussions with private sector developers at the moment about what the portfolio of projects looks like and what the role for joint ventures and partnership working is. So, there’s an awful lot of opportunity, just because of the scale of the Welsh Government woodland estate and the range of projects that they could take forward. As the Cabinet Secretary mentioned, there’s a shortlist of around five projects, but there’s a longer development pipeline just because of the scale of the land. So, there’s been initial feasibility of over 20 projects that they’ve looked at, so there’s an awful lot of development potential.

Yes. And they're also already members of RenewableUK Cymru, so that gives them the opportunity, then, to engage with other developers, but I’m keen that those discussions really look in some depth at community benefit. The big opportunity here is to do things differently in terms of community benefit and show how things can be done to extract the maximum benefit for communities. So, it’s quite an exciting agenda.

And that's probably a big part of the litmus test, isn't it, because why would you do it otherwise, kind of thing, but there we are. Okay, diolch. Cefin, you wanted to come in.

I think grid, in recent years, has been one of the challenges in terms of lack of investment, if you like. So, that is a particular point of discussion that we are having with network operators. Of course, we’ve established the future grids for Wales piece of work and that did provide a good piece of evidence in terms of what our needs might be in the future, so it gives us that grounding on which we can start having those discussions. And, of course, we’ve got the independent advisory group, as well, which will help us in terms of understanding the possible approaches to delivering improvements in terms of electricity transmission in future. We’ve been working closely with the National Energy System Operator, which is setting out to develop a strategic approach to planning for energy in future as well. Those discussions have been very fruitful. But again, I’ll turn to Ed in terms of discussions specifically on the grid.

If you look at the Trydan projects that we have identified, the five priority sites that are being taken forward, the key constraints you'd have are around land, which is great, because it’s Welsh Government-owned land, so that’s not an issue; natural resources, in terms of are they good wind sites, they’ve done that feasibility; then the third one is around grid. They are the three top issues.

I know the team have already got grid connection offers with National Grid to connect the projects at a point in time, so they’ve got that initial process in terms of understanding what the capacity is going to be on the grid, what the timescales are to actually connect the projects. I think that the key challenge is the timescales are very far out. You’re talking 2030s, those kind of timescales, just because of the grid connection queue issues that we currently have.

Something that we’re also doing at a Welsh Government level is working with the NESO and understanding how to manage that connection queue better, so you’ve actually got realistic projects that can come forward, rather than lots of ambitions out there to connect to the grid that don’t necessarily materialise. So, another area of work that we’re doing alongside the work around the strategic spatial energy planning is around the connections reform work and trying to work with the network operators, and the UK Government as well, to try and get a realistic plan to get good projects connected as soon as possible.

The advisory group that I referred to is going to be key in terms of agreeing and developing some principles that will help us understand what the most appropriate solutions are for energy infrastructure in Wales and create a public evidence base in terms of informing the understanding of the support for the principles. Proposals for new electricity lines would need to meet those principles if they are to be supported by the Welsh Government. Our position is about that preference for undergrounding where possible. It’s not always going to be feasible for a number of reasons, but I think the work of that advisory group is going to be important in terms of helping us determine the way forward. It's just one of those areas that people feel so strongly about, for absolutely understandable reasons. Clearly, from the perspective of developers also, they want certainty for the future in order to be able to invest as well. So, I think the sooner that we can come to some conclusions, in terms of that work of the advisory group and the principles, the better, just to give everybody certainty on the way forward.

And when do you expect the advisory group to report?

We're expecting that early in the new year. That's the plan.

I don't think you've told us where the five sites are. Are you able to do that or not?

Not at this stage.

I thought I'd just hedge my bets.

Trydan kicked off an engagement campaign across all of their work, and that’s been published on their website. The intention is to actually speak to the communities and engage with the communities directly. 

Of course, I get that. Can you tell us whether they are in the pre-assessed areas?

It's a bit of a mixture. 

Thank you. Just coming back to Trydan Gwyrdd Cymru directly and its role, one of its goals, and I quote here, is to 

'advise and work with the public sector, to realise locally owned renewable energy generation.'

It sounds a bit like the Welsh Government's energy service. Is there a risk of duplication? If not, how do they differ? 

Trydan will be working to bring these projects to fruition with that focus on the developments themselves, whereas the Wales energy service is there to offer that technical and commercial support and advice to the public sector to help deliver energy projects. So, I suppose Trydan is in the doing space and the energy service is in the advising and supporting space. 

Will Trydan be using the energy service or will they have that in-house? 

I think there will be some join-up, because one of the things that the energy service does is to try and support that local and community ownership element. So, in some respects, Trydan Gwyrdd is wholly owned by Wales because it's a Welsh Government-owned company, but there may be opportunities in terms of linking up with the community energy sector or other parts of the public sector in terms of that local ownership bit. So, that would be where Trydan would work closely with the Welsh Government energy service. 

And there's a partnership team within the Welsh Government across the different areas to make sure that there isn't that duplication and to make sure that we're maximising opportunities for synergy. 

Indeed, yes. Okay, diolch. Janet. 

Thank you. How does the proposed GB Energy fit with Trydan Gwyrdd Cymru, Ynni Cymru, the Welsh Government energy service and RenewableUK Cymru? That, to me, sounds and looks like there is a risk of duplication, when you include RenewableUK Cymru and Ynni Cymru. 

Ynni Cymru I think is much more in the space of delivering those local energy projects. Thinking about the local energy plans that each local authority will have, there will be small-scale, if you like, opportunities particularly for the public sector in that space. So, I think that that's a different league, if you like, to that which Trydan Gwyrdd Cymru and GB Energy— 

And what about RenewableUK Cymru? 

RenewableUK Cymru is more of an umbrella body for the sector itself, so they will be important across the piece. But in terms of Great British Energy, currently the UK Government is laying the legislation to establish Great British Energy, and so we are some way off, I think, yet seeing the delivery through Great British Energy, whereas Trydan Gwyrdd Cymru puts us actually a couple of years ahead. We've been really keen to stress to the UK Government that Trydan Gwyrdd Cymru gives the UK Government's Great British Energy company the opportunity to make some early quick wins, because we've already established projects that could be taken forward, and so on. 

Right. It just sounds overbureaucratic. Do you know what I mean? It looks and sounds like that to me. 

I think Ynni Cymru is unique in the sense that it does look at those small-scale projects, and we've given £10 million to develop those small-scale projects. Trydan Gwyrdd Cymru is a different proposition. It is about using the Welsh Government's woodland estate to develop, in this instance, wind projects. And Great British Energy is just being set up at the moment, but that should, hopefully, give the opportunity to funnel investment through, and that could go through Trydan Gwyrdd Cymru. Equally, it could be through other projects in Wales as well. But we're trying to avoid duplication and just see the opportunities, really, for collaborative working.

And are you happy with the engagement that you're having with the UK Government around those proposals? Because, clearly, we've seen legislative consent motions here and it's red flags around UK Government making policy decisions that may well tread on our toes here in Wales, and maybe take us in different directions, potentially.

Those discussions are ongoing from the perspective of the legislation itself, and I gave evidence to a different Senedd committee recently about the approach. Our principles are clear in terms of consent rather than consult, and so on. So, those discussions continue. But alongside that, you've got discussions about what Great British Energy will deliver and how, and how it can ensure that the link-up is there with Trydan Gwyrdd Cymru as well. 

Okay, thank you. When are we going to see updated renewable energy targets? Because there was a consultation, I think, that closed about a year and a half ago, and we're still waiting. 

Following that consultation, the targets were updated in July of last year. I don't intend to update again because I think they still remain valid and, although stretching, still achievable. So, I don't intend to produce new targets.

Okay, thank you. Joyce.

Good morning. I'm going to move on to the contracts for difference. Are you concerned about the low number of projects awarded funding under that? What's the reason? Because there seems to be a stark difference in allocation between England, Scotland and Wales. 

For projects to enter that process, they need to have planning in place, they need to have the grid connections agreed, and so on. I think that some of the uncertainty that there's been in recent years with the previous Government, particularly in terms of onshore wind, has had an impact in that space. But I think things are looking more positive now in terms of the amount of money that the UK Government is intending to provide in this particular space. But we do absolutely accept that we need to accelerate the planning decisions. You'll be familiar with the Infrastructure (Wales) Act 2024, which will be important in terms of streamlining the consenting process. That is, I think, warmly welcomed by industry to give them certainty and clarity about the process, what's required at what point, what the various roles are, and so on.

And then there's also the work that we've been doing to try and bolster the planning profession as well. We've got a consultation coming up shortly in terms of full cost recovery of planning in the planning system, and then also some work that we're doing to look at how we bolster the profession itself, potentially through apprenticeships, bursaries, working through Net Zero Industry Wales, for example, to try and have a pot of funding that could then support the bolstering of local planning teams. So, there are a range of things that we hope we can do to speed up the process in future.

What we've heard in the past, and you’ve mentioned it, on the expertise in planning for delivery is that Wales is a very small place and we're fishing in a very small pond. But also it seems that there's almost a reluctance to share the expertise more widely than the local authority that it exists in. Is that part of your plan going forward, to enable schemes to go forward? 

Yes, we are looking at how we better use the regional approach to local government working, particularly in those areas where there are very specialist skills needed in the planning system. We're exploring that particular area as well. There are a range of things that I hope will have a big impact in terms of speeding up the planning decisions. 

Diolch yn fawr. Julie.

Bore da. I wanted to ask you about carbon capture and storage. I wondered what the Welsh Government's view is of that technology. I know there's going to be a consultation imminently. What contribution do you think it can make? 

You're right that there will be a consultation imminently—very imminently, I think—on that. Our overall approach is that carbon capture and storage can be used where it makes a clear, measurable and sustained contribution to decarbonisation or to the transition away from the use of fossil fuels and where there's no reasonable alternative to avoid or substantially reduce the emission of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere. So, that would be the kind of statement, I think, that we would be looking to consult on, because we're very clear that people want to understand our position very carefully, industry wants to understand it, and environmental organisations want to understand it as well.

As I say, we'll be going out to consult on that shortly. We think it's important to be clear that this is going to be part of the approach moving forward, I think inevitably, because when you look at the advice that we get through the Climate Change Committee, for example, which gives us the independent advice, it is of the view that all of the paths to get us to where we need to be by 2030 would involve some element of carbon capture and storage, and that's because there are some parts of the economy that are just not possible to decarbonise in other ways. But we are really clear that this doesn't take us away from our journey of reducing our use of fossil fuels and the move to net zero.

Obviously, you're aware of some of the concerns that have been expressed about this move. I wondered if you have been able to look as a Government at the ecological consequences of this technology.

We have. The UK Government I know has published some papers in this particular space, but perhaps I'll see if any of the team are involved in that side of the work.

Not directly. We're very much aware that the UK Government work looked at the security of storage facilities and if there is leakage and stuff like that in terms of the areas that they've been looking at. And then the other bit is part of the consultation; I think it would be good to get views about any other evidence that's available there in terms of the use of CCS in Wales. So, hopefully, some of those issues would be flagged up as part of the consultation process as well.

Right. And do you think there's a danger that this will allow oil and gas to continue, in a way, because this option is being presented, rather than concentrating on renewables?

So, I think that's why we want to be really clear in our approach—that it has to be about that journey to net zero, and should only be in the mix when there's no reasonable alternative to avoid or substantially reduce the emission of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere. And so our journey is absolutely about reducing our use of fossil fuels, but we know that carbon is created—. So, I'll give you an example of the cement factory I visited in north Wales recently. As part of that process, you're creating carbon, so that needs to be dealt with, and carbon capture and storage is one of the only ways you can deal with it, really. So, those are the kinds of circumstances, potentially, we could be looking at, where there are no other alternatives to deal with things, or whether this is the best way to deal with it.

Thank you.

I think the risk is that, obviously, the drive behind decarbonisation technologies for some of those producers could potentially be slowed by getting CCS in place, really. That's the risk, isn't it? There is a risk there—you have to recognise that.

I think that, in providing this solution to industry, it doesn't mean that we shouldn't be supporting the continued innovation in this space, to try and reduce the production in the first place.

Okay. Cefin, briefly.

Again, I might ask Ed to give some examples of that, but I think this will fit into our overall approach in terms of trying to meet targets of local ownership across Wales in any case. And, again, it's that point about trying to be creative about community benefits and retain the benefit and retain the value here in Wales.

So, I think the default, obviously, is that it's wholly owned by Welsh Government, so wholly owned in Wales, so that's 100 per cent local ownership from a Welsh perspective. But I think what we want to do is for Trydan to explore options with local communities as well, about whether part-owning of the assets is something that they want as part of the benefit approach. And that's something we explored through the recent campaign, about exactly what communities value, what are the range of benefits that they want to see from the benefit packages that are available as you're putting in new infrastructures. So, some of that might just be that communities actually just want a community benefit fund or to invest in local infrastructure. Other communities might be really interested in taking a local ownership element of that—either one of the turbines, half a turbine, or something like that—as part of that approach. So, I think what Trydan want to do is to actually speak to the communities and say, 'Well, what is it that you want? We want to work with you in terms of a package that works for your communities.' So, it could be a whole spectrum, but that part of ownership of some of the assets would be something they would be exploring with the communities as well.

So, nothing's off the table in terms of the scale of that local ownership?

Well, no. The key challenge will be the overall financial position, because communities don't get any benefit if the project doesn't go ahead. So, that'll be the tension between understanding what the economics of the project are, the rates of return to make it commercially viable, because Trydan will be a commercially operating company. This project has got to get a return for it to go forward, and then it's understanding, within that framework, how do you work up a benefit package for communities that is desirable.

Okay. Diolch.

Excellent. Diolch yn fawr. So, we'll move our focus on to planning now, and I'll invite Janet to lead us on that, please.

Do you envisage the planning system getting to a point of full cost recovery, and if so, when?

So, there are two live consultations in this particular space, one in relation to the infrastructure consenting fee. So, this is part of our wider work in terms of the infrastructure Act, which I referred to earlier, and that would be looking at moving to full cost recovery, to allow stakeholders who have a function in the determination of those major infrastructure projects to recover the full cost of their work. So, most of the work there, actually, is undertaken by Planning and Environment Decisions Wales, so PEDW would be the main beneficiary of this. But there would also be, I think, space for Natural Resources Wales and local planning authorities also to recover costs there. And then, more recently, we've got the consultation, which I've approved very recently, on 15 November, and that sets out proposals for improving the capacity and resilience of the planning services, which I mentioned in response to the previous question. And that consultation then includes proposals to increase planning application fees, and it does include a pathway, then, to full cost recovery. So, the proposal within the paper is that fees will be increased by an average of 50 per cent for most applications, and the majority will then reach full cost recovery in three to five years; for some it might be within year 1. So, if that were to be agreed, then, by the Senedd, new fee regulations would be in place by August of 2025.

Okay. You haven't thought of ring-fencing that income generated into, particularly, local authorities. Because I am worried a lot of legislation that goes through here indirectly impacts on local authorities, and our planning departments are so understaffed generally. So, for projects like this—and, of course, NRW, we know they're under-resourced, understaffed—I suppose, really, it was one way of seeing moneys actually ring-fenced. Will you be ring-fencing any?

So, that's one of the questions that we're keen to hear, through the consultation as well, in terms of—

I think we know what the answer is going to be.

Well, you get different responses. So, even within local government, you could imagine part of—. One local government would want to just not ring-fence, but then I'm sure the planning team would be very keen to see the ring fence.

Well, we know that they are stripped bare, yes.

So, yes, just really keen to hear, through the consultation, views on that. I mean, from my own perspective, I don't want to go about increasing fees if it's not going to lead to a demonstrable improvement in the service that people get. Having spoken to industry, they, actually, are quite comfortable with the increase in fees, as long as they know it's going to deliver a better service to them. So, that's what it has to be about.

If it speeds things up, it's better for them, isn't it?

Yes.

And then could you update the committee on the work with Net Zero Industry Wales to develop a pot of money that planning bodies can draw down from in times of resource pressure, which I would imagine is probably all the time?

So, I met with Net Zero Industry Wales on Monday and had an update on this work. In September Arup was commissioned to carry out a resource study—sorry, that was completed in September—and that allowed a better understanding, then, of the issues facing authorities, particularly in north-west Wales, where there is a lot happening at the moment in the planning space. So, individual project scope is now being looked at, and this is particularly with Flintshire, Conwy and Denbighshire, because they were the ones that needed the biggest support in the short term. And there's a draft framework of contracts that are now being developed, and the aim is to have the contracts for support in place by Christmas, so I think that that could help in the short term. It's not a long-term answer, I don't think, but I think it shows a creative way in which Net Zero Industry Wales has been able to work with local authorities and with industry. And it's really important, of course, to have that boundary around the funding and so on, so it is kept away from decisions and so on. So, the work and the role of Net Zero Industry Wales is important.

Thank you. And what message, do you think, recent delays in consenting onshore windfarm projects have sent to potential investors in renewable energy in Wales?

Well, I hope the recent decisions, which I've been able to make since I came into post, have given, actually, a really strong message to the renewable sector that we are moving things on, that decisions are being made. So, I've been able to make five determinations on developments of national significance since I came into portfolio. That takes the number, this year, up to 10, and that's the highest that we've ever had. Last year was the highest previously, and that was seven, but I hope next year we can go higher again. It doesn't mean every application is going to be determined positively, but, equally, industry would just like a quicker answer, even if it is a 'no'. So, just moving things on and doing it a bit more quickly I think is important.

Yes, exactly.

So, I hope that that has given some confidence now.

And could you expand on your comment last week that projects of under 50 MW will now be decided by planning inspectors?

Yes, so the intention is to bring forward legislation to delegate developments of national significance decision making to planning inspectors on energy projects up to 50 MW. So, that reduce the end-to-end time by around three months or more. So, there will be two pieces of legislation that are required, so the Senedd will have the opportunity to vote on those. The first being the Developments of National Significance (Fees) (Wales) (Amendment) Regulations 2024. They were laid yesterday. And should those be passed, then, by the Senedd, we'll have to lay a further piece of legislation, the developments of national significance (Wales) (amendment) regulations—again for the Senedd.

I raised this during the infrastructure Bill coming through—this will be done in consultation with local communities and things?

So, this is something, actually, that just brings forward something that would have happened as a result of the infrastructure Act, which I've referred to, but it brings it forward to happen much more quickly than it would have otherwise done. So, in that sense, we've had a lot of consultation and engagement in any case.

Great. And then the final—

Sorry, Janet, before you go on, could I just ask, then, because, obviously, there were concerns, and there still are, about decisions moving further away from the democratic accountability structures that we have—is that being played out here, in a sense?

So, I think it is appropriate up to 50 MW, and perhaps Neil can talk a bit about the views that we heard in the consultation. But I would just also add that it still remains possible for Welsh Ministers to call in particular—. 'Call in' are the wrong words, but—.

Yes. So, essentially, what we're doing is here is accelerating what's going to happen under the infrastructure Act, where we'll be passing back to local planning authorities responsibility for those applications. As the Minister mentioned, this call-in process—we can recover those if there is a particular public interest in them. But most of them are fairly small-scale schemes, mainly solar schemes, which have a limited number of issues and concerns raised in relation to them. They're not the large scheme, they're the smaller schemes. So, we think it's an expeditious way of actually getting those applications through the process.

So, they won't be decided by local authority or local planning authorities, they'll be decided by planning inspectors.

Under the DNS arrangements, yes. Under the infrastructure Act arrangements, local planning authority.

Yes, okay.

Okay, thanks. And then is this an interim arrangement until the new consenting regime established by the Infrastructure (Wales) Act 2024 takes effect? And when will the new regime be operational?

So, yes, it is an interim situation.

It's just what you've said.

Oh, sorry, yes. Will the Welsh Government be producing detailed guidance relating to renewables developments on peatland?

We are considering whether to provide some further detail in terms of developments on peatland. We do already have the policy in chapter 6 of 'Planning Policy Wales', but I think there could be merit in some further guidance to provide some clarity, because I know there is some perceived uncertainty in this space, particularly felt, I think, by the renewable energy industry. So, what we would do, I suppose, would be providing the opportunity to amplify the policy and address any uncertainty.

And I think what we're trying to do here is actually develop a policy that applies not just to peat, but applies in other areas as well, but then draw out the peat aspects of it and how, if you like, a developer can work through their site selection process, hopefully to avoid peat as far as possible. So, that’s the process we’ll be drawing out.

Yes. 

Okay. Diolch yn fawr. Thank you. Cefin. 

Diolch. Can you give us an update on the development of the strategic development plan that it’s in each of the CJC—the corporate joint committee—areas, and when are we expecting them to be in place?

So, there has been a delay, and that’s essentially because of the importance of having local development plans in place and the need to have the further round of reviews that there’s been. So, it has delayed things in some areas. I really welcome the progress particularly in south-east Wales. So, they are the first who have been able to consult on a draft delivery agreement, so that’s a really important milestone. I hope that the others will be following behind soon. I’ll check with Neil if he’s got an update on timescales.

So, we’re at different stages across Wales with, essentially, local development plan reviews at this point in time. So, in south-east Wales, we’ve got a number of authorities who’ve been through the review process and are now starting to work together to prepare a strategic development plan. So, as the Minister said, south-east Wales are currently consulting on their delivery. So, that’s the process that sets out how they will deliver that plan. In north Wales, we’re talking to local authorities there as well, because Flintshire have recently been through the process, as have Wrexham, so there is, potentially, capacity to start that process off there as well.

South-west Wales is a little bit further behind. Carmarthenshire have an examination at the moment, and I think Swansea are going to start reviewing their LDP. It’s back to what is the right time to start the process. There was a good, if you like, timing around 2015-16, because the first round of LDPs had been through the process. The SDP process wasn’t engaged by local authorities at that time, so they’ve had to go through another review cycle to keep that plan coverage, because what we don’t want is not to have a plan in place, because it just leads to planning by appeal rather than decisions that are associated with the plan.

So, it’s a mixed picture. I would predict that we’ll see something first in south-east Wales. It’s about a four, five-year development process. So, they start now and they’re four to five years away from having a plan in place, with North Wales following on after that and south-west Wales after that. In mid Wales, the issues are not so strategic in nature, so Powys, at the moment, are progressing their own local development plan, and if they progress a strategic plan, they’ll probably be the last.

It is important though, because it’s almost the missing part of the picture, because we’ve got—. We were at the British-Irish Council recently and there was a specific focus on planning. Other colleagues were very envious of the fact that we’ve got complete coverage across Wales in terms of the local plans, and we’ve got our national policy and so on. But it is the kind of missing piece in the jigsaw, unfortunately.  

Okay. Previous Ministers have talked about the need for a technical advice note specifically on intensive agriculture. Do you believe that we need one and, if so, when are we likely to see one published?

So, I think the intention is still there to publish one, but the priorities that have overtaken have been around the phosphorus debates and so on, so resources have been focused towards that instead. So, later in 2025, I would suggest.

Yes, it’s one of those ones where we can see the need for it; it’s having the people to do it. And we’ve had to make the decision to really focus on the situation around phosphorus and the impact that’s had on developments. So, the people that we had, hopefully, put onto looking at the intensive agriculture TAN, they had the knowledge, in doing that work, to actually swap to the phosphorus work. It’s something we are keen to do, because there are impacts from intensive agriculture that we do need to address through the planning system and provide additional guidance.

In a similar vein, could I ask a question around the nutrient calculator as well, which is whether that is in the pipeline to be published?

Yes, in the next few weeks for that.  

Did you say the next few weeks?

The next few weeks. 

Yes. 

Okay. Diolch. 

Diolch yn fawr. There we are. Diolch. Julie. 

Thank you. I wanted to ask you what impact having the Welsh language as a consideration in planning legislation has been since it was introduced in 2015, I think.

So, I would look to 'Future Wales' in particular in terms of seeing clearly the importance of supporting the Welsh language. And in our reviews of 'Future Wales', I think that we'll be able to determine more clearly the impact that that has made. I'm not sure when our next review is.

So, the next review will be in, I think, two years' time. 

Okay.

So, I think that the important thing that we do do is that we very carefully scrutinise local development plans, and one of the things we look at there is whether the levels of growth proposed are compatible with the priority in terms of protecting the Welsh language, for example. So, we do write back and ask whether those levels of growth are appropriate to a particular area, for example. So, there is that process going on, because it's important, I think, to remember that, again, we have a plan-led system in Wales and, when you're developing a plan, that's the place to think about where you locate development and the scale of development. It's very much more difficult to intervene when applications start to come in on the basis that you've got an adopted plan. So, we focus our effort very much on looking at that plan-making process. 

And what about the results of that? Is there any measurement to show that the Welsh language has not decreased in any area or that it's increased the use of the Welsh language? Is there any link there?

We rely largely on census data to look at that. We know from previous census data that levels of Welsh speakers have declined in some areas and grown in others. So, that's one of the key sources that we do use. But, of course, that's data that's only produced every 10 years. And it's something, as well, that local authorities need to monitor through their local development plan annual monitoring report. 

So, it's very difficult to actually make the links—

To correlate the two, yes.

—with actual planning and the Welsh language.

And it's probably hard to separate out planning from other interventions, such as the work that we're doing on second homes. A lot of that is focused on trying to ensure that we have communities where the Welsh language can thrive, and also work in education and so on. So, it's quite a complex piece, unpicking which decision actually led to the outcomes. 

Thank you.

Okay. Diolch yn fawr. Janet, finally, on this section. 

Is the review of the National Infrastructure Commission for Wales on track to be completed by the end of 2024, and when will the outcome of the review be published?

So, the review is being undertaken at the moment by the Welsh Government's internal audit service, and it is on course to be delivered by the end of the year, and then the intention is to publish it early in the next year.

Okay. Thanks.

Okay. Diolch yn fawr iawn. Okay, we'll move on to transport, then, and I invite John to start us off.

—I don't know how to say 'Cabinet Secretary' in Welsh, sorry. It's a bit more complicated in Welsh.

Cabinet Secretary, just in terms of your work on ports and airports, how do you work with the Cabinet Secretary for Transport and North Wales, particularly in terms of delivering the Wales transport strategy and the national transport delivery plan?

So, we have the aviation, maritime, ports and freight and logistics team within the Welsh Government. So, they co-ordinate lots of the work. But, as you say, there is a need to work very closely with the Cabinet Secretary for transport, but also the Deputy First Minister has got responsibilities for borders within his portfolio. So, it's important, again, that we're joined up. But, in many cases, it's the same teams within the Welsh Government, and, if not, we've got the structures for them to liaise. So, I don't see the spread of responsibilities as being something that would hinder our work.

There's no joint working group for Ministers to mirror what's in place at a civil service level, then, is there? Is it more ad hoc for the three of you to work together, then? 

It's more ad hoc at the moment, and it's probably more focused on specific issues. So, for example, on borders, we would have a specific meeting to discuss any issues relating to borders rather than have a regular Cabinet sub-committee that looks at the issues in the round.

Okay. And could I ask you about freight, and the responsibility for freight and developing the freight and logistics plan, which is part of the transport strategy and delivery plan, isn't it? It's not listed under portfolios for Cabinet Secretaries, so could you tell us where this responsibility lies?

So, that responsibility for freight lies with the Cabinet Secretary for transport, but in terms of developing the plan to which you referred, he'll be doing that in partnership with the Minister for skills, with Jack Sargeant, to ensure, obviously, that it has that strong focus on skills development.

Janet.

Can you provide an update on development of the Welsh national ports and maritime plan committed to in the transport strategy and delivery plan? What will it address?

I might turn to Stephen to give us a brief overview of this. I know that we'll want to work, of course, closely with the UK Government and with the Welsh Ports Group and with wider stakeholders on the development of this, but it's not something that is advanced at this point.

Thanks, Cabinet Secretary. Bore da. Yes, there is a commitment under the Wales transport strategy to deliver a ports plan by the end of this Senedd term and it is something we are working towards. As the Cabinet Secretary said, it's not in as mature a state as perhaps our work on freight and logistics is at the moment—another plan that we are committed to develop under the Wales transport strategy. But what we'd like to do is develop the ports strategy alongside the freight strategy because of the synergies between the two sectors—there's a lot of cross-over. 

In terms of the ports plan, clearly, things we'd want to look at are the impact of leaving the European Union on trade flows and what that would look like in the longer term. It's quite difficult to foresee what that might look like, but it's something we'd want the plan to address. Looking at the opportunities ahead in the future, marine energy is clearly going to be a big focus. How do we work with all of our ports and other sectors to make the most of those opportunities? Looking at the environmental side of things—so, sustainability in supply chains and in the maritime sector—a lot of that is reserved policy for the UK Government, but there may well be practical things that ports in Wales could do to reduce their carbon impacts as they go forward. And looking at tourism as well, certainly in north Wales, in Holyhead, as there is a lot of cruise business going through there, how can we maximise the opportunities from that kind of business for communities in Wales, but also minimise the environmental impact of those kinds of activities?

I think also it'll be very important to make sure that we don't just look at the big ports in Wales. There are lots of small ports across the whole of Wales that are very important to their local communities. So, the plan will look at those ports as well and what the future has in store for those and how we can make sure that they remain thriving in the future.

Okay. Do you envisage making up for the delays, obviously, in relation to this plan?

Yes. We'll do our utmost to get this completed as per the commitment in the Wales transport strategy. I think they're subject to the Cabinet Secretary's sign-off. I think what we're looking at is what the practical and realistic near-to-medium-term measures are that the Welsh Government could implement to make a real difference to ports in Wales. So, perhaps a tighter and more focused product looking at those pragmatic things that we can do will emerge from the end of the process and that might make things more achievable to be delivered within—

Any timescales?

I can't give a firm timescale at the moment, but before the end of the Senedd term.

Okay. Diolch yn fawr iawn. Joyce.

You've answered a lot of what I was going to ask, but I'd also like to understand how you're connecting with the free ports and the opportunities there, because that wasn't mentioned, which seems to be a potential game changer for some.

If I may, yes, they'd be a key part of the plan.

Okay, that's it, is it? Okay.

Shall I just add a little bit on the free ports as well? Because we've been working really closely with the UK Government on that, particularly in terms of the designation of the tax relief areas. So, you'll have seen that we've laid our regulations here in Wales. There is some further work to do in terms of the business cases, so the next stage in the process now will be the assessment of the full business case. It was submitted by the Celtic free port in late September, jointly assessed by both Governments in October, and then we provided feedback to the free port in November. So, the free port has now responded to the critical actions from that feedback, and officials from both Governments are now assessing, and, if we both agree, the sign-off could be very soon. So, we're looking at the way in which the free ports have responded to the issues that we raised from their final business case. I think we're making good progress, and, hopefully, we'll be in a position to say something more very shortly.

Okay. That's good. I was going to ask you about the implementation of the border target operating model and how that's all being co-ordinated, and you've already answered questions about who is overseeing things: the Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for climate change has that portfolio. But I think, since you've already answered more or less all of those things, I'm going to move on to Cardiff Airport rather swiftly—

I could say something—

—and the £206 million for the long-term strategy, because we're going to run out of time. It was announced at the point the 2020-21 rescue and restructuring plan funding is almost fully drawn down. Can you provide further details on what the £206 million is intended to fund, and explain whether, given the timing, this money is required for investment or to keep the airport liquid and operational?

Well, at the moment, of course, we've got the Competition and Markets Authority's assessment, which was published on 2 October, and I issued a written statement on the same day. So, at the moment, we don't want to comment in any detail, really, on that, because we need to take some further time to assess or to give our full consideration to that particular assessment, but we do remain open to refining the proposed programme of investment on the basis of the assessment that's been provided by the CMA, and, of course, in terms of the representations that the CMA has heard from third parties as well.

So, I probably don't want to go into too much detail, but would just emphasise, really, about the long-term strategy for the business, and that really having two main objectives, which build on the airport's existing strengths, and that's about attracting and growing aviation and aerospace businesses linked to the airport—clearly, hugely important—and then, also, that targeted programme of air service development, and that would have a strong focus on passenger connectivity to a small number of global air hubs and economic centres of importance to Wales.

John, did you want to pick up further on the CMA stuff?

Yes. From what you say, Cabinet Secretary, that CMA report, then—. You're in the process, I guess, of considering how you move forward, but is there any more you can say in terms of how things are likely to change as a result of that report, what other strategies and funding approaches are being considered? Will the CMA have a role as we go forward?

So, in terms of the CMA's role, that really is just to assist public authorities by providing that independent, non-binding advice in relation to certain subsidies, but, beyond that, it doesn't have a role in terms of whether or not a public authority should choose to award the subsidy or not.

But then, in terms of our own response to that, as I say, we are open to refining the proposed programme of investment on the basis of the assessment and the representations that the CMA heard, and Stephen and the team are working through that at the moment.

Thank you. Just to go back to the £206 million, how much of that is intended for investment, and how much of that, if any, is required to keep the airport liquid?

So, the purpose of the investment is to support the airport's ambitions in terms of growth, but perhaps Stephen can say a little bit more.

Yes. It is important to stress that the programme is designed to grow the local economy in that part of Wales, so, seeing the airport as a catalyst for economic growth. It's important to stress that this is not a second rescue and restructuring package, as we've had previously. This is very much a programme focused on economic growth, and that is the basis upon which we referred something to the Competitions and Market Authority. So, the investment is very much targeted on making sure that we can grow the airport, but also help businesses on the airport and around the airport to grow and develop an increased number of jobs in the area and boost gross value added.

Okay. Diolch yn fawr. Fine. Julie.

The airport's new environmental flight path is under development. What expectations has the Welsh Government got to underpin its development and when will it be published?

So, as you say, the airport is currently working on updating its environmental flight path. It will be published soon after the Welsh Government's decided on how to proceed in relation to the economic investment package that we've just been discussing.

Right, thank you. The airport has missed its deadline to achieve net-zero operations by 2050, and this was a target in the rescue and recovery plan. What are the consequences for the airport missing that target, which, as I say, was in the plan?

The target was to set out a pathway, not to achieve net zero, but, yes, the point is valid.

Yes, that's correct, the target was to be on that journey to achieving net zero by 2023. I think that there are some significant improvements that the airport has made. For example, the airport's electricity supply is now powered entirely by renewable and clean energy sources. Clearly, it's heavily focused as well in terms of recycling, and zero waste goes to landfill. It's reduced its natural gas consumption by 30 per cent, it's replaced assets with modern and more energy-efficient technology, and it also restricts the ground running of engines during anti-social hours and encourages twin-engine aircraft to taxi with one engine. It's trying to show leadership in a whole range of different ways. And it's also introduced a replacement programme of LED lighting and continues to reduce plastic consumption, working with a range of partners as well. So, it is taking its responsibilities seriously and making some progress.

Thank you.

Diolch.