Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru

Good afternoon and welcome to this afternoon's Plenary session. The first item this afternoon will be questions to the First Minister, and the first question is from Jane Dodds. 

Thank you for the question. We work with a variety of partners to support those affected by gambling-related harm, including organisations that provide help, support and advocacy services. Our officials are currently assessing how we could develop specialist NHS treatment provision here in Wales.

Thank you for the response. The scourge of gambling addiction remains a grave public health issue which ravages the lives of families and individuals across Wales. A 2022 national survey found that 63 per cent of Welsh adults had gambled in the prior year—a significant spike from 52 per cent in 2018. As you'll know, a particular area of interest of mine is around greyhound racing, and we know that the greyhound racing track, Valley, is intended to quadruple the number of greyhounds it races in order to ensure that they race at night, and that that goes online, to ensure that people gamble more on—[Inaudible.]—as they proliferate, more people face increased exploitation and exposure to gambling's insidious dangers daily. 

You've mentioned that Wales currently has no NHS clinics to provide support, and I'm glad to hear that you're considering what we can do here in Wales. Gambling support organisations have conveyed to me the vast resources of the gambling industry on one hand render them outnumbered compared to what they're able to do. In fact, they use this phrase: 'It's like taking a pea shooter to a nuclear weapon'. So, First Minister, in the light of your new Government taking power and, potentially, a new Government taking power in Westminster, what would you do to commit to vigorously lobbying for a substantial increase in funding for gambling-support services across Wales? Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Thank you for the supplementary question. I do share your concerns about gambling, and especially problem gambling. We know that there are, on our own understanding, around 18,000 people in Wales who are assessed as being problem gamblers, with all of the significant consequences that come for them, their families and communities around them. I'm pleased that, within the UK Labour manifesto, there is a commitment to pursue gambling reform. It's a particular area where increasing the regulatory environments to provide greater protection from harm is important.

The timing of the current UK general election has meant that work that was ongoing between the Welsh Government, the Scottish Government and the UK Government has been paused. I'll look for that to continue after the election. One of the issues that had been discussed was the potential for a levy, because I recognise the point the Member made around people having to deal with the harms that come from problem gambling who don't feel they're properly equipped, and the voluntary efforts made thus far have not matched the need that comes from problem gambling. That's why work on a levy is something I'm interested in seeing through, and then there are detailed conversations to be had about how that levy could be used if it is pursued, and one of those areas would be about taking up the direct harm and NHS services that come from gambling. It's a conversation that the current Cabinet Secretary for Education was involved with in her previous role. It's a role that I expect us to carry on with, with whoever the new Government is—I hope it is a UK Labour Government—to meet the manifesto commitment we have on this, together with both Jayne Bryant and Eluned Morgan and the wider team. So, I hope that gives some reassurance that this is an issue on our radar, and is something I do expect to pursue, and I expect to pursue it with a Government that recognises the need to do something in this area after 4 July.

I very much agree with you, First Minister, that the polluter should pay, and a levy is what's needed to pay for these gambling addiction services. This covers people from all walks of life. My poor grandmother used to have to sit and watch while my grandfather would dispose of four- or even five-figure sums in one sitting in a casino. But what's pernicious about gambling today is that it's everywhere and its 24-hour availability. And it's the presence of these gambling organisations, advertising on buses and just generally making us think that this is part of everyday life, is what needs combating. I'm delighted that betting shops now fall into their own category, rather than being able to take over fruit-and-veg shops and turn them into betting shops, and particularly doing that in areas where the poorest communities, least able to afford to lose money on gambling, happen to be. I wondered what analysis the Government might have done as to how this reclassification has reduced the numbers of gambling shops that are available in the community.

It's an interesting point the Member raises. Of course, it was a relatively recent change, which was undertaken in 2022, on planning uses, so I wouldn't expect we'd have comprehensive data yet. But I think that this is something that every local authority will be interested in, about the numbers of gambling establishments, and where they are, and the link between the planning and the licensing regime as well. One of the points around the potential use for a levy, of course, is that it could then be used in an impartial way, not controlled by the industry itself. And I think your points about prevention, as well as treatment for the consequences of problem gambling, are relevant. It's a conversation that I'd be happy to have with Julie James, in her role as Cabinet Secretary for local government, to understand what that then looks like in the practical use, in the powers that local authorities do have, to have a closer and better grip and understanding of where gambling establishments are being actually undertaken anew.

I share the concerns about problem gambling here in Wales. We have seen an increase in the number of people gambling, and we must do everything we can to protect people from harm, through the devolved levers and, indeed, the UK levers that are available. I was very pleased to hear the response in respect of consideration for developing work around addiction services. I do think we need a national gambling clinic in Wales, and addressing the proliferation of betting shops on many of our high streets and in our town centres. But one thing you haven't mentioned thus far, First Minister, is the need to educate our young people, in particular, about the harms of problem gambling. What action is the Welsh Government taking through the new curriculum to make sure that young people are aware of the harm that can be caused, particularly through things like crypto-currencies and the gaming systems that many people use, which may look innocuous and harmless but have caused considerable grief to many people across the country? And will you support the work of organisations like Deal Me Out, which works in schools in north Wales, and Beat the Odds, which, of course, is also doing very important work through Adferiad recovery? Thank you.

I think the point about the proliferation of gambling is important—not just physical premises, but online—and how gambling can actually be advertised in a range of areas that are targeted at children and young people. A range of online games on phones and others often have gambling adverts through them. I can see them myself and the information that my much-more-new-world-savvy child is able to look at. And so, it's a challenge about catching up with what our children and young people are consuming. I'd want to think properly about what the Member says about the curriculum, because curriculum reform is significant. We're looking at how we equip people with skills for life—the knowledge base, but also the skills to make informed choices. And part of what a potential levy could be used for is the point around prevention and understanding how you equip people with the knowledge to recognise what problem gambling looks like, as well as then dealing with the consequences for where it looks like. But it's a conversation that I think is worth having with the resources currently available, but making sure that we don't take an approach that looks to add specific areas into the curriculum itself about how you equip people with the knowledge and the skills to properly deal with the challenges that our children and young people are facing, which are very different to the time that you or I were genuinely a young person.

Yes. This Government is committed to reducing the length of time that people are waiting for treatment. Since March 2022, pathways for two-year-long waiters have reduced by 71 per cent. The average wait for planned care treatment is now 22 weeks.

Thank you for your response, First Minister. Deputy Presiding Officer, the First Minister will know that the most recent waiting lists show numbers increasing in Wales to the highest level on record for people seeking treatments. In addition, Wales, sadly, has the longest waits for treatments in the UK, with over 20,000 patients still waiting over two years for the treatment that they need. And these numbers, of course, come after a quarter of a century of Labour running the Welsh Government and Labour running health services here in Wales. So, First Minister, what does this say about Labour's approach to running the NHS?

Actually, what we've seen is that, over the last couple of years, we have seen waits come down. There are significant challenges that every NHS in the UK faces following the pandemic. We know that we do have a challenge to meet, and the longer term trend shows those lists are coming down. It was obviously disappointing that in the last month there was a moderate rise in the numbers who were waiting. But it is still the case that the trends are for those long waits to reduce. It's also a matter, of course, that, as well as the reform and the transformation that we need to see in the way that health and social care services are delivered, this is also partly about resources. We've made choices within our budgets to put significant additional resource into the health service—a 4 per cent uplift. We also know that, for the demand coming into the service, we need to do even more. It's why the choice on 4 July matters. If there are to be more resources coming into public services, it will make a difference about the people we can have to do the work that is required, in addition to the transformation of the way that our services work. That's why the health Secretary has looked at, for example, the regionalisation programme and having significant and protected planned care activity. All of those things make a difference. It is more than one thing. I believe, with different partners across the UK who recognise the need to properly invest in the funding of our health and social care system, we can deliver an even better service and we can get on top of the waits that I recognise need to be undertaken here in Wales.

First Minister, I am aware of two standout NHS projects in south Wales that are working hard to drive down waiting lists. The first is the diagnostic and treatment hub at Llantrisant, which opened just two months ago with a mobile MRI scanner. A few weeks ago in this Chamber, I reported that they'd already seen over 200 patients. But the latest data shows that, in a matter of weeks, this has now doubled to over 400 patients going through its doors. The second is a scheme to blitz cataract waiting times, which we know increased as a result of the essential reprioritisation of services during COVID. Now, this scheme has ensured that all three-year cataract waits were treated by the end of March this year, and it's now working towards zero patients waiting over two years by the end of this calendar year. What these two projects have in common is that they are examples of regional working. So, First Minister, would you agree with me that regional working by health boards is key to driving down waiting times?

It is absolutely an essential part of how we do drive down waits for all of our constituents. If you look at the programme we've been trying to undertake before the pandemic and afterwards, you can't go back into a world where the specialisation that is required gets turned off. We need to protect that planned care activity away from emergency sites. And that's why the Cabinet Secretary for health has been investing in those services, with real money, as well as making sure organisations agree on how to do that together. And that, often, is the biggest challenge in our delivery. Lots of front-line clinicians want to work in a different way. Getting different organisations to agree how to do that takes more time. But the two examples that you have given are good examples of where that's happened. It's been supported by this Government, and it's a model we want to carry on investing in because we understand it will deliver better care and faster care for all of our constituents. But it shows this is a path we want to carry on investing in, and I'm confident it will make the difference that Vikki Howells already set out for some of her constituents and others right across south-east Wales. 

I welcome that much has been done in north Wales with the limited funding, with the extension of minor injury units in our community hospitals, a new orthopaedic hub that's being built this year, and we've got the medical school in north Wales. But it's important to recognise that waiting lists are increasing in England now and that our NHS across the whole of the UK needs adequate funding if it is to survive. Prior to 2010, under UK Labour, funding for the NHS rose in line with need, at 5.4 per cent each year, with waiting lists far lower than they are now. But in a decade of austerity under the Tories, up to the pandemic, this dropped significantly and included four years in which spending per head actually fell in the NHS, causing stagnation in investment. So, a failure to invest in buildings, technology and the workforce has built up, causing long-term problems. We cannot let our NHS fail. Would the First Minister agree that the UK Government has been continually asking the NHS to do more with less so that it now spends less on healthcare than other developed countries? Thanks to their decade of decline, we need to actually do something now to invest in it going forward.

The Member is right to point out the undeniable impact of 14 years of austerity. You can't avoid the reality of those choices by the UK Government to remove funding—not just the impact it's had on the health service with unprotected areas, but all the other parts of public spend that have a direct impact on demand in the health service—[Interruption.]

First Minister, I would like to listen to the questions and I would like to listen to the answers. There are too many Members in the Chamber who want to communicate between each other, rather than listening to the respondents. Please can we give the First Minister time to respond? Others will have a chance to ask questions when I call them.

Thank you. It's also undeniably true that, during the last period of a UK Labour Government, health spend rose significantly faster than it has done with Conservative leadership across the UK. That has real consequences for the choices that we are able to make. Despite that, in our last budget, we invested more than 4 per cent of additional funding here for NHS Wales. That compares to less than 1 per cent in England. Even with a £700 million reduction in the real-terms value of our budget, we continue to prioritise the national health service. I believe, with different leadership across the UK to undo the 14 years of Conservative chaos, we can do even more for our national health service here in Wales. The Member correctly highlights that a difference at a UK level will make a difference to what we are able to do here in Wales.

Questions now from the party leaders. First of all, leader of the Welsh Conservatives, Andrew R.T. Davies.

Thank you, Presiding Officer. First Minister, I've looked at the national Labour manifesto—it keeps insomniacs awake, I might add—but it doesn't have any commitments in it to the electrification of the north Wales line. Why can you not find one single word about electrification of the north Wales line? [Interruption.]

Before the First Minister answers, everyone has an opportunity to ask their questions, they should be able to have the opportunity to ask them in silence, and the First Minister should have an opportunity to respond in silence. So, please, all Members, I know it's election time, but please give credit to the individuals who are speaking.

Actually, on rail reform, there are clear commitments to invest in the future of rail services. What we saw before the election was an uncosted pledge to invest a sum of money in north Wales with no plan attached to it. I look forward to working with a Government that will seriously take into account the way that we run rail services here in Wales, our ambitions for improvement in the future, and when it makes spending pledges, they'll be real—not illusory pledges before an election they do not expect to win, but actually what we can do here in Wales and as part of what we expect to do on devolving responsibility in a range of areas, with the funding to meet those responsibilities. I look forward to the launch of the Welsh manifesto. I'll look forward to seeing the verdict of the public when it comes to 4 July, and then a very different partnership, I hope, between two Labour Governments working for Wales and Britain together.

Clearly, you could not give a commitment about electrification of the north Wales line there. Your omission and your inability to do that was evident for all to see. In our manifesto, we have committed to electrify the north Wales line, we have committed to Barnett consequentials for the cancelled phase of HS2 from Birmingham to Manchester. That is in the manifesto, First Minister—[Interruption.]

Andrew, two seconds, please. Andrew R.T. Davies, as the leader of the Conservatives, should not have to shout. Therefore, please give him the opportunity to ask his questions. As I said to everyone, I'm fully aware there's an election going on, but there's not an election going on in this institution at this point in time. So please give him the opportunity to be heard.

This is very off-putting, Deputy Presiding Officer. Thank you very much for reprimanding the Members. In all seriousness, First Minister, that is a project that economically could be transformational for north Wales, yet your manifesto is silent on that investment. Why have the Labour Government here in Cardiff Bay, the Labour group, failed to argue for Barnett consequentials for the cancelling of the Birmingham to Manchester line, and ultimately failed to secure a manifesto commitment to electrify that north Wales line? Is it because you don't care about north Wales?

I think the Conservative record is an interesting one. The cancellation of electrification between Cardiff and Swansea was a Conservative breach of a clear manifesto pledge, and now there's a claim that there is somehow a commitment to north Wales. Not a single penny has been spent, and it's not surprising, because there is no plan to invest in. We're interested in having an investment programme not just for north Wales, but across south and west Wales too, to build on the work we have already undertaken. Eight hundred million pounds has been invested through Transport for Wales. It is now the most reliable network here in Wales. The real challenge we have is actually about the unreliability of Network Rail.

When you look at what we are prepared to do, I expect we will invest more in rail services across north Wales. I also expect, if we have a UK Labour Government, we'll have a Government that actually respects devolution and doesn't set out in its manifesto to attack it. The manifesto that your candidates are standing on, that you are supporting, contains a direct attack on devolution—not just the drivers Bill, but also the pledge to undo the work that this Senedd voted for in an Act that is now in place, led by the then finance Minister, of course, to undo the Tory trade union Act here in Wales. Your pledge is to attack workers' rights and devolution yet again. When people look at who Wales is better off with, the party of devolution or the party that's attacking it, I'm very clear they will make their choices at the ballot box, and I look forward to their verdict.

You don't half talk a load of cobblers, First Minister. First Minister, a manifesto is about a pledge that the party puts before the people. A simple commitment that you could make via the manifesto would be to commit to the electrification of the north Wales line. You haven't managed to secure that, because you have little or no influence with your colleagues in Westminster. It is a fact that that transformational project would open up the opportunities that the north Wales economy is crying out for. Why are you so marginalised by your colleagues in Westminster? Anyone only had to look at Jo Stevens's comments yesterday to see that you will be a marginal figure the other side of the election if, God forbid, Labour win it, and I hope they don't. But you could today redouble your efforts and give the residents of north Wales and the businesses of north Wales a commitment that at least you would stand on the Welsh Government's commitment to electrify that line, even if your Westminster colleagues won't, and the voters in north Wales will see this and realise that it's because you don't care about north Wales.

Before you answer, First Minister, I'm sure the leader of the opposition would reflect upon the opening statement in the last question, and I'm sure he'll appreciate that it was probably not the language that we would use in this Chamber. 

As Taylor Swift might say, you need to calm down. When you look at where we are and what we have delivered, I think you'll find that there is a Welsh Labour leader who is far from a marginalised figure. Look at the manifesto we have: the commitments will make a real difference to Wales. Look at the employment support devolution and the funding support that will come here to Wales in the manifesto; the strengthening of Sewel; the council of nations and regions where the Prime Minister will regularly meet with First Ministers across the country; the fact that we will restore decision making over structural funds here, where they belong. And more than that too: on Lords reform, on a Hillsborough law, on a Windrush commissioner—that matters to lots of our constituents—and finding out the truth of Orgreave. All of these things matter to us here.

When we compare who is and isn't a marginalised figure, I go back to the first photo opportunity where the Prime Minister didn't know which teams were in the Euros tournament, and the handlers in his party decided it would work better for the Conservatives if they sat Rishi Sunak next to a man who isn't even going to vote Conservative and poor old Andrew was in the background with his arms folded. I'm very clear about the influence that I have within my party. I'm very clear that when we set out plans to invest in rail infrastructure, they will be real and they'll be delivered. I look forward to the verdict of voters in north Wales. After the election, I'll be very happy to have this conversation again with him about how the voting public feel about the Conservatives and their record, and whether change is needed for us to turn the pages on the chaos that he has defended for more than 14 years.

On behalf of Plaid Cymru, Heledd Fychan.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Not a day goes by without it becoming clear that Welsh Labour's HQ is firmly based in London. In her S4C interview last night, Labour's would-be Welsh secretary, Jo Stevens, was wrong on both fact and principle. She was wrong to say that high-speed rail in England isn't being built, and wrong not to support the principle that Wales should get its fair share of spending when Welsh taxpayers' money is spent on transport projects in England. The interview displayed a patronising and contemptuous attitude towards Wales and devolution, so there's no difference in attitude whichever party is in No. 10. In his previous role as economy Minister, the First Minister, when referring to HS2, said, 'There's never been a fair share of this project. There's always been a fiction that this is an England-and-Wales project.' So who should we now believe, and who speaks for Labour in Wales—Keir Starmer's chosen spokesperson for Wales or the First Minister?

It's very simple—I'm the directly elected leader of Welsh Labour. I don't think that's very complicated. And when you look at what we have in our manifesto, we're clear about restoring the decision making over structural funds. That's what will happen. When we were part of the European Union, of course, there was a strategic Europe-wide framework. We then made all the choices within that. That's what restoration means.

When you look at where else we go in terms of the agenda we have, I think if you look at the manifesto you'll see a great deal of positivity for Wales from the party that helped to create devolution, that had the manifesto pledge, that led an individual campaign within our party, and took part in a cross-party campaign. If you then compare that directly with the Tories, you will recognise that the drivers Bill is an assault on devolution and recognise that the attempt to try to repeal the trade union Act we passed in this a place is an assault on devolution and workers’ rights. The contrast could not be clearer. The path for devolution looks at direct pledges to engage and take devolution further forward. The funding for employment support is a clear example of that, and there's more that I believe we can and will do.

I look forward to having the opportunity to work with a UK Labour Government that is serious about taking devolution forward, serious about tackling the cost-of-living crisis, and that recognises that, without a long-term plan, we’ll be forever stuck in a cycle of Conservative chaos. I believe people in Wales will vote for that optimistic and positive vision.

In presuming from your response that you didn't actually see Jo Stevens’s interview, or perhaps that you know that she won't be the Secretary of State for Wales, because, certainly, we heard from Jo Stevens a point-blank refusal to right the wrong on HS2—no plan, no intention, no interest. Why should anyone believe that a UK Labour Government will deliver for Wales?

Because it's not just HS2 that's an issue. What about justice? We've had countless reports: the Independent Commission on the Constitutional Future of Wales, Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd's commission on justice, and Gordon Brown's commission on the UK’s future. All are in-depth, comprehensive analyses, all going further than the UK Labour manifesto published last week. We can only imagine what they will be thinking having heard Jo Stevens refer to the issue as 'tinkering around with structures and systems'. How dismissive. 

The lack of ambition on display in Labour’s manifesto, using woolly words like 'explore' or 'consider', leaves the reader wondering if the First Minister and his Cabinet colleagues were consulted on any of its content. Can the First Minister outline to the Senedd today what role did he play in the manifesto, and explain why his influence on his London bosses is so minimal?

Yet again, Plaid Cymru run a fiction when they say that there is no influence from Welsh Labour in the UK party, and a fiction that somehow we should be disappointed with a UK Labour Government that has not been elected. If you look at the manifesto itself, it sets out a range of areas that take devolution forward, not just from my presence at the manifesto meeting itself, but over the months and the weeks that have led up to that. Look at where we have got to on the devolution of employment support funding. Look at the restoration of decision making over structural funds. There's the fact there will be a proper council of nations and regions. There's the strengthening of Sewel. And, yes, we will consider and take forward youth justice and probation.

I am confident that we will secure progress on those areas. I believe the direct engagement we will have, not just with what I hope will be a Welsh Labour Secretary of State for Wales, but with Secretaries of State across a range of departments, will show the difference we can make with two Labour Governments working together, and, crucially, the commitment to update the outdated fiscal framework. That will make a real difference to our ability to take forward the tools to do the job here in terms of devolution. Devolution will move forward with a UK Labour Government, with the commitments in the UK Labour manifesto.

Perhaps you saw a draft that wasn't published that had all these commitments in them, because, obviously, I haven't seen that version, and neither have the people of Wales. I haven't seen anything about a HS2 consequential, no devolution of policing and justice. So, let's look at the issue of structural funds, because language is important here, First Minister, and we didn't see that commitment there. It was extremely woolly, and we need to see that those aren't hollow words from you, because point me to the manifesto commitment here. It seems to us, very clearly, that Westminster will continue to control Wales's post-Brexit cash—a power grab straight from the Tory playbook. I ask you again: did you see Jo Stevens's interview, because, certainly, she is at odds completely with what you have said to us today? What we know from his acceptance of a £200,000 donation is that the First Minister is easily swayed, but we had expected him to secure the interests of Wales in Labour's manifesto. Why has that been impossible for him?

Again, let's go back to the wording in the manifesto:

'Labour will restore decision-making'

—not 'think', not 'consider'—

'over the allocation of structural funds'.

It could not be clearer. That is a manifesto pledge that was secured some time ago, and it's in the manifesto now. The council of the nations and regions is in the manifesto; the strengthening of Sewel, in the manifesto; the devolution of employment support funding, in the manifesto; the work to take forward the consideration of youth justice and probation, in the manifesto, and I am confident we will secure the end results; updating the fiscal framework, in the manifesto. I recognise that Plaid Cymru are obsessed about internal Labour politics. When it comes to what the public will vote for, I believe the public will vote for a manifesto that delivers for Wales and Britain—a new partnership to change the failure of the last 14 years, where this Welsh Labour Government can work in partnership with a UK Labour Government, with more powers for us to do the job here in Wales and a partnership that can work for Wales and Britain.

Thank you. The national music service is enabling every child and young person, from the age of three to 16, to have the opportunity to benefit from opportunities in music-making activities, both in schools and in the wider community.

Thank you for the response.

I've been approached by parents in Cardiff North, and as a result recently visited the junior conservatoire at the Royal Welsh College of Music and Drama, where everyone is absolutely devastated and upset about the uncertainty about its future. The school caters for 300 young people to attend on a weekend. The vast majority of them get bursaries to come, based on household income. It offers singing and movement, jazz specialism, group playing, chamber music, Indian music, theory and choir—just to name but a few. And as well as the loss of these opportunities, were it to close, there's a great source of anxiety about the fantastic instruments they've got there—an individual being worth thousands of pounds—which are given to the young people to use for a very small maintenance fee. So, what opportunities would young people have to use those sorts of instruments if this did not continue? This is a unique institution, and so what could the Welsh Government do to prevent this service from closing?

I should say that I myself benefited from having opportunities to play a musical instrument when I was younger myself. I played the violin and the trumpet, with varying degrees of proficiency. But I recognise that, actually, talent is relatively evenly distributed, but opportunity is not. That's why we introduced the national music service. And the work that the Royal Welsh College of Music and Drama do helps to provide an additional platform for young people.

The consultation they have closes on 20 June, and then there will be a further three-week period to consider responses to that. I'm interested in the college considering the impact of the choices it could make. We're not in a position to direct them on funding—it's a choice they've made—but the Cabinet Secretary for Education has offered to meet the principal and has asked to do so. I expect the principal to directly engage with the Cabinet Secretary for Education, to have a conversation with us about what it is possible to do, because I want to see our cultural assets protected and taken forwards.

We're in a period of time now where, in a few weeks, there could be a change at a UK level with a different opportunity to look to a future, and the ability, I hope, to plan over more than one year. Just as we ask other people not to make irreversible choices, I'd ask the college to think again about the choice they may be considering making, to have the meeting that's been offered with the Cabinet Secretary for Education to consider how they can continue to extend the range of opportunities to all children and young people across Wales who have talent and the ability to benefit from a musical education and opportunity within their lives.

The leader of the opposition was just telling me he can also play the trumpet, First Minister, so I look forward to a competition between the two of you on who can play the trumpet the loudest. [Laughter.]

But on a serious note, this is a very important question on the order paper today and last month at the Urdd building across the road, some Members here attended the event that celebrates the work of the national music service. I was very pleased to hear representatives from Powys and young people from Montgomeryshire taking part in that event as well. But when I was at the Eisteddfod in Meifod last month, I spoke to, also, people at the Montgomeryshire Youth Music stand, volunteers that come together to encourage young people to come together every Friday at Welshpool High School, free of charge, to play their instruments together. So, with that in mind, First Minister, I was also aware that the UK Government shared prosperity funding provided to 10 organisations a total of £675,000 to support the arts and creative industries across the county of Powys.

So, First Minister, I would ask what further work can you do and the Welsh Government do, particularly at grass-roots level, to support and encourage young people to see being a musician as a positive life opportunity for them? What can you do in conjunction with schemes supported by the shared prosperity fund to encourage more of that, particularly in rural areas?

I too was at the Urdd Eisteddfod in Meifod. It was really interesting to see that the role of musical performance for a range of young people and what they got from it wasn’t just the performance, it was all of the social side of it and the skills that go with it.

I’m interested in what we can do with the music service and the way we’ve directed them to extend opportunities. That’s why the First Experiences programme is so important, and it’s reached seven in 10 primary schools in Wales to make it genuinely accessible to people across the country. So, I’m interested in those opportunities in rural Wales and, indeed, urban Wales, and how we have stable funding sources to build on the work we’ve started. That’s the challenge, because, unfortunately, the shared prosperity fund, the way it’s been developed and organised, isn’t a stable source for the future, and, actually, the way that funding was previously used was for big significant strategic priorities. I want to see a proper way to fund creative industries and music and culture as part of that in the future. That isn’t what we’ve been able to have, and that is a consequence of the reality of what has happened to our budget in a decade and more. Stability and a long-term plan for the future will, I believe, provide more opportunities for children and young people in his constituency and further beyond.

I very much welcome, obviously, the national music service investment, but it was never set up for conservatoire-style study. The serious dismantling and erosion of Wales’s finest economic export, the Welsh National Opera, from its joint arts council funding bodies, will ruin its capacity to perform and deliver first-class world-beating schools outreach. And just one example, First Minister, is the Cradle Choir—an innovative schoolchildren intergenerational programme; one amongst many, many others—that the Welsh National Opera provides for Wales’s young musicians. Combined with the very shocking announcement of the realistic closure next month of Wales’s only conservatoire junior department, the pipeline of talent to the Royal Welsh College of Music and Drama, what is the overarching strategy in place for developing the talent of our Welsh youth and the future culture of Wales?

Well, I recognise the point the Member makes, and she has consistently raised the point, not just in this Chamber, but outside it with myself and the Cabinet Secretary for culture, and I would expect her to carry on doing so, because there is a real issue about what we’re able to do with the funding challenges we have. It’s why I made clear that I would expect the principal of the college to meet with the Cabinet Secretary for Education to understand what the longer term impact is, what their proposals are, and how they meet some of their own mission for ensuring proper access to music for a range of people who are from less privileged backgrounds as part of the work that they’re currently undertaking.

And I recognise the broader piece around choices made not just by the funding council here in Wales, the arts council, but actually about the funding choice that had an even bigger impact in England. That’s why we need a different relationship about the value of what the WNO and others do. I recognise the enormous soft power that the WNO has, as well as the direct economic benefits it produces as well. So, I'm interested in how what I recognise as one of our finest cultural assets continues. That's a conversation we want to carry on having, together with what I hope will be a different meaning, to achieve that aim in a few weeks' time and beyond.

Thank you for the question. Green job creation is a priority for this Government. This includes realising the enormous net-zero opportunities across Wales from our natural environment to support business growth and develop new technologies, such as compound semiconductors, to enable a just transition. 

After some 14 years of Tory UK Government austerity, imposed as a political choice, we've seen economic stagnation and record falls in the standard of living of our communities. Thankfully, the people of Wales and the UK as a whole understand this and look set to vote for badly needed change and a UK Labour Government. That incoming Labour administration will make the UK a clean energy superpower by creating high-quality jobs through investment into renewable energy projects and industrial clusters across the UK. In south-east Wales, we have the Severn estuary, which offers great potential for floating wind platforms and harnessing tidal energy. Newport docks has important plans for expansion and, of course, Tata Steel at Llanwern must be involved in a transition to green steel. So, First Minister, will the Welsh Government work with a UK Labour administration and our local authorities, together with other key partners, to create these sustainable green jobs and economic projects here in south Wales?

I think the Member points out exactly the change we do need to see. For those who have read part of the UK Labour manifesto, the commitment to develop a national wealth fund is a key part of it, not just the direct public investment that will go into it, but also the additional private sector investment we expect to realise in our ports, in the race for clean power, in advanced manufacturing and in a future for the steel sector. Jobs right across, not just south Wales, but across north Wales too. In all of those areas, we have natural assets and advantages. What we need is a stable partner with the level of vision to deliver them.

And you don't need to take my word for it. On clean power, for example, the UK Labour manifesto contains a quote from Sir Patrick Vallance, formerly the chief scientific adviser of the UK Government, who recognises the level of ambition that is required and the benefits that could and should come from it. That is what is on the ballot paper on 4 July, a different partnership with ambition and vision and the resources to deliver it. That is something I believe people in Wales here will be positive about, and, I hope, will vote for.

First Minister, I'm not going to go down the route of John Griffiths and make a PR bite in order for the UK election to get a way ahead. Let's focus on the Welsh issues, which are what we're all sitting here for, and that's why I'm going to be saying that our green energy sector and energy are, indeed, vitally important for the economy here in Wales. But what is most important about it is that we have a just, sustainable and economically viable transition in this sector, with the right level of consistent investment and utilisation of skills to maximise economic output.

Earlier this year, the UK Labour Party pledged £28 billion in a green spending promise, then, in last week's Labour manifesto, we saw a pledge of £7.3 billion to key green industrial sectors. First Minister, you'd think we were on a beach with the amount of flip-flopping that we've seen from Keir Starmer so far, and the man seems quite adamant to bring about change, and I say that very loosely, yet still can't quite work out how to actually do it. So, First Minister, with a clear lack of plan going forward, lack of direction and cherry-picking from different commitments by UK Labour, how can the Welsh public trust that your party will actually stick to promises when huge u-turns have already been made in key manifesto pledges? Thank you.

It's an interesting contribution, and what I will say is, when you look at the last Conservative manifesto, swathes of it have been trashed and not delivered without a hint of shame about it at all. Just take structural funds and the pledges in two Conservative UK general election manifestos that not a single penny would be lost. None of that has happened. We know we have lost over £1 billion here in Wales. The Member said she wants to talk about Welsh issues, and I still haven't heard a consistent view from Conservatives in this Chamber about that missing £1 billion that her party has taken away from Wales. More than that, of course, it's what it has not allowed us to do: invest in the skills she says she's interested in. Actually, that is why we have had extraordinary pressure on our own budgets here in Wales. We could and should be able to do more.

When we get the return, the restoration, of decision making around structural funds, I am clear that we will reinvest in apprenticeships and skills programmes that worked and delivered real results in industries of today and the future. The semiconductor industry I mentioned will require some of that investment. It's an industry where there's supposedly a UK strategy, supposedly with £1 billion over 10 years—not the sum of money that should actually meet the challenges or opportunities there—but not a single penny of that has been spent. If you're going to have a semiconductor strategy, then, actually, the south-east of Wales should be a key part for that investment to be delivered in. Not a penny has been. This Government has a very different record of investing alongside that sector to deliver investments and good-quality jobs. We will do more of the same if we have willing partners who can deliver upon that. If people vote for change on 4 July, I look forward to delivering that with another UK Labour Government, in partnership.

The Welsh Government is committed to protecting and enhancing our air and water environment and ensuring that our land, water, marine and coastal areas are of the highest quality.

Thank you. Wales was once known for its babbling brooks, fresh, clean air and sweeping green pastures. It was a tranquil land filled with those of us who cherished and protected its idyllic environment. Now, however, the rivers are filled with sewage, the air is ripe with the stench from ill-managed landfills, and protected countryside is subjected to illegal fly-tipping time after time after time. Even this month, with ongoing criminal investigations, NRW has been unable to clarify the compliance of Mr Neal's company—somebody you know very well—operating the Withyhedge landfill site, because the company has failed to file the necessary paperwork. They also now note, which is concerning—NRW—that there is now no deadline for the paperwork, further perpetuating the pollution of Pembrokeshire residents. This is a disgrace. And with you, the First Minister, clinging on to power after a vote of no confidence in you in relation to this particular site and the moneys that you've obtained from it. Given the mockery this situation makes of Wales—

You need to ask your question now, Janet, please.

—and the fact that you have lost all credibility and legitimacy as the First Minister, how will the Welsh Government, and particularly you, as the head, still, of this Government, fulfil your own obligations by ensuring that this environmental ceases, this awful pollution, now? It's the least that we can expect as Senedd Members. Diolch.

Well, I've been very clear and I'll be clear again about not just pollution at Withyhedge but in any site where NRW are operating and feel that there is a need for improvement: as the regulator, they need to work with the site operator, they need to work with local public health authorities and with the council, with the different responsibilities they have. I expect them to do that to deliver improvement. Any operator that needs to make improvement needs to undertake the required action and the independent monitoring that needs to take place to ensure that it does happen. Now, I'm not directly engaged as the Minister in this and nor should I be; that's why it will be overseen by the climate change and rural affairs Minister—by the Cabinet Secretary—to make sure that NRW are doing what they're supposed to do. The assurance that we expect is exactly that. So, there's no change, there's no different standard to be applied to this operator or any other, and, in fact, this Government will go on to improve standards for environmental regulation to make sure that the polluter really does pay where there's a breach of those standards. And we are committed to nature restoration. We are much further ahead in all of these areas than England is; I'm proud of that, but I want us to do more, to go faster and go further, and I believe that we'll be able to do so, not just in this instance, but right across the country.

Turning to a different matter related to the question, Dow Corning had a leak at its chemical plant in Barry on Saturday, and the white mist, obviously, was particularly impacting on people in Sully and Penarth, as well as Barry, but the easterly direction of the wind prompts me to ask you whether the Government's had any chance to do any analysis of whether it affected Cardiff, particularly constituencies like yours and mine.

I should point out that Sully and Penarth are in my constituency, Deputy Presiding Officer, but I think the issue is a more general one. I was aware of the leak from Dow Chemicals and the cautionary action that was taken, with advice given for people to close doors and windows. It was actually resolved fairly promptly, so it was a fairly short period of exposure. My understanding is that the relevant regulatory and public health authorities are clear that there should be no health impact from the incident. But, obviously, work is being undertaken to understand how it happened and what measures need to be in place to make sure that a similar incident does not take place in the future.

Dow is a significant employer with hundreds of jobs, across not just the Vale of Glamorgan but other constituencies too. We want to see it operate to the standard that we expect for the workforce and the wider public who could be affected, as the incident that the Member highlights actually reinforces. So, if there is anything further, we can make sure that that comes not just from the relevant Cabinet Secretary about the assurance that has been given, if the Member wishes to hear about the longer term impact and the lesson learning that should be taking place. 

As I said to Members last week, I recognise and respect the vote of the Senedd. I look forward to working to regain the confidence of Members from across the Chamber and ensure that the Government I lead is focused on the priorities of the people of Wales.

First Minister, the gig is up. You lost a vote of no confidence in your leadership. You can't just shake that off and pretend that it's not happening. It's not business as usual. I'll say it again. The Senedd has lost confidence in your ability to lead. [Interruption.] Mike Hedges mentions that there's an election, there's a general election on the horizon, and you will know as well as I do that too many people in Wales don't cast a ballot because they feel that their vote doesn't make a difference. So, what message do you think you've sent to the public, when you say that a democratic vote by the people that they elect doesn't matter?

I'm acting in accordance with the rules of this institution, and I recognise that the Senedd voted. I recognise the circumstances around the vote and those Members that weren't able—

First Minister, I do—. This is an important response, and I would like to ask Members across the Chamber to stop having discussions about this. I want to listen—and the people want to listen—to the response from the First Minister.

So, I recognise the choices that we need to make in moving forward to meet the questions and the priorities of the people of Wales. I set that out on becoming First Minister less than three months ago. I look forward to the verdict of people on 4 July about the sort of partnership that we will have across the UK and, more than that, to make sure that, when we take steps here in the Senedd on a range of areas we already have done, from the review on 20 mph and the good news that, actually, since introducing a 20 mph default limit on more roads across Wales, fewer people have been injured in accidents—. So, it takes us forward on what we have chosen to do and what we've pledged to do as well. There is more we can do on the investments that we have made in a whole range of areas and the range of questions that we've had today. I'm optimistic about what we'll be able to do in the future, and I look forward to continuing to serve and lead my country in that capacity. 

The Welsh Government ensures that small businesses have access to a wealth of support, including through the Business Wales service, which supports small and medium enterprises to build more resilient businesses and develop their business practices.

Yesterday, I visited a very well-known and popular bar and boutique shop in Bargoed that has only been open a very short period of time. It's called Dirty Cowgirl. It has become very famous in Bargoed and very popular. But now, unfortunately, it's going to have to leave the town-centre premises because the landlord of the business is selling the property. Thankfully, the business has managed to find new premises in Aberbargoed, but this will mean another empty premises on Bargoed High Street. The owner strongly believes that commercial tenants should have a right to better communication and more transparency around any decisions by landlords to sell a property and/or evict tenants. She believes that this should especially be the case if landlords have benefited from Welsh Government or local authority grants to restore and regenerate their properties. So, can the First Minister answer what the Welsh Government can do to help provide more security of tenure for small and medium-sized enterprises like this and give them greater rights in relation to their landlords, much in the way that we have rightly boosted tenants' rights in rented residential properties?

I'm not familiar with Dirty Cowgirl, or the business, but moving away from the individual business, there is a point around both what we're looking to do to regenerate and sustain town centres—so, not just our 'town centre first' approach on planning, but the Transforming Towns funding that we have—and that is to make sure that there is a vibrant sense of place for businesses and for residents in town centres. More than that though, on the point the Member raises about legislation, the previous UK Government asked the Law Commission to review the Landlord and Tenant Act 1985, and that included business tenancies. So, we're looking forward to the review that has come, and we look forward to working with the UK Government on an issue that should not be party political, about how we can look at the different rights of tenants, including business tenants, and what that may mean. I take on board the Member's point around if there's been additional Government investment in the premises itself, but I'd want to look at that in a rounded way, together with the Cabinet Secretary for Housing, Local Government and Planning, about what might be required, or what might help us in reform of the law, and the practical support that can provide for businesses.

And finally, question 8, Llyr Gruffydd.

We established the Independent Commission on the Constitutional Future of Wales to develop options to strengthen devolution to the Senedd. We have accepted the commission's recommendations in full, and are now taking forward this ambitious agenda for Wales.

Well, in your leadership campaign manifesto, you called for specific powers to be devolved to the Senedd, didn't you? They included the Crown Estate, justice, policing. You even called for prudential borrowing powers. Now, as we've already heard, your UK Labour colleagues over the last week have constantly undermined your and your Government's calls for further devolution of some of those powers, and the shadow Secretary of State has said that the powers over police and justice would stay in Westminster. In fact, yesterday, as we heard earlier, she said that your calls are, and I quote, just

'fiddling around with structures and systems'.

The UK Labour manifesto itself only promised to consider the devolution of youth justice and probation—nothing on the wider justice system, nothing on Crown Estate or rail infrastructure. Jo Stevens yesterday stated that rail infrastructure would not be devolved, despite your Government consistently calling for it. She flatly refused to commit to Wales getting the HS2 money that you've said we're owed, and they've even taken away the promise of you controlling replacement EU funds, against your wishes. Now, your UK Labour Party are now saying much the same on these issues as the current Tory Government. So, how does it feel to be so marginalised that your Labour colleagues dismiss your policies and, frankly, totally undermine your Government's position on these issues?

Well, I don't accept a large chunk of what the Member is saying. It is manifestly not true to say we're in the same position as the Conservatives. We have a manifesto offer that takes devolution forward. The Conservatives have a manifesto that assaults devolution in two significant areas.

On some of the specific points that the Member references, we have a manifesto pledge to consider taking forward probation and youth justice devolution, and I look forward to working with an incoming UK Labour Government to deliver that. I'm very clear what I want the outcome to be, and there's manifesto cover to do so.

When it comes to structural funds, it is simply not as the Member has outlined. The wording of the manifesto is clear: Labour will restore decision making over the allocation of structural funds. There's no fudge about that. That is what the manifesto says. 

And on rail infrastructure, I want devolution with the resources to deliver it. We saw what happened with the Valleys lines. They were devolved and provided to us with an asset that was in real distress. We then had to spend significant sums of money within a budget that's been reducing in real terms to upgrade the asset and to invest in the rolling stock. We have done that. That now means we do have a rail infrastructure in the south of Wales that people can be proud of, with rolling stock that is being rolled out. Right across Wales, we have rolling stock that is improving the passenger experience and the reliability of those services. I look forward to working with the manifesto commitments to carry on investing in railways that will come back into public ownership, to have a more coherent approach to rail infrastructure and to decision making within that, and the resources to make sure it can and will be a success. That is taking devolution forward. That is a partnership between Wales and Britain that will work, unlike the offer from the Conservatives. I am very happy to live by the contrast between the two parties. I am very happy to await the verdict of the people of Wales on 4 and 5 July.

Thank you, First Minister.

Item 2 this afternoon is the business statement and announcement, and I call on the Trefnydd, Jane Hutt. 

Thank you very much, Dirprwy Lywydd. There are two changes to today's Plenary agenda. The Stage 1 debate on the Senedd Cymru (Electoral Candidate Lists) Bill has been postponed until 16 July. Instead, the Cabinet Secretary for Climate Change and Rural Affairs will make a statement on Wales's world-class recycling. Additionally, the Conservative debates tomorrow have been reordered, and the debate on women's health has been postponed. Draft business for the next three weeks is set out on the business statement and announcement, which can be found amongst the meeting papers available electronically. 

Trefnydd, can we have an update on the blue badge scheme across Wales? We know that new guidance has been issued to local authorities, but this doesn't seem to be resolving the many problems that people in my constituency are having when reapplying for their blue badges. Why should it be that someone with a deteriorating condition, who qualified for a blue badge previously, is having to continually, every few years, go back to request one? That seems to me like unnecessary bureaucracy. If people have got a deteriorating condition, they should qualify for life. I do think that there needs to be further work on this, and I would welcome a statement on the blue badge scheme, to make sure that we're not wasting officers' time in local authorities, and we're not wasting the time of our residents unnecessarily, with having to do applications that ought not to be happening. 

Secondly, can I call for an update from the Minister with responsibility for flood defences in Wales on flood risk management? One of the challenges I have in my own constituency is that, in the Sandy Cove area in Kinmel Bay, it's a place that has been hit by flooding on a number of occasions in recent years. Now, the Welsh Government, rightly, is investing in the sea defences in the Kinmel Bay area in the coming year, with work that is expected to start in September of this year. But, unfortunately, whilst that will help to protect the residents on Sandy Cove from flooding episodes, it will not resolve the significant drainage problems that there are on the Sandy Cove estate, as a result of the highways and roads on that estate being unadopted. So, I would like to see the sea defence and flood works, which are taking place in Kinmel Bay, extended to cover the drainage on that estate, and I think it would be useful to have a written statement on this matter, to see whether there's any further action that the Welsh Government can take in order to help the residents in Kinmel Bay there. Thank you.

Diolch yn fawr, Darren Millar. On your blue badge scheme, yes, I will raise this with the Cabinet Secretary. Obviously, this is something that is developed in partnership with our colleagues in local government. It is a vital scheme to enable accessibility and independence for disabled people, and people with impairments and conditions that qualify them for the blue badge. And, of course, the review system is important, as you would acknowledge, but I will raise this and feed back to you on the outcome of that discussion.

I'm very pleased that the Cabinet Secretary is here in the Chamber when you raise the issue about flood risk management, and particularly focusing on sea defences and the work that we are, as a Welsh Government, investing in, not just in Kinmel Bay, but across the whole of Wales. I think we should be very proud of the investment we make in flood risk management. This affects all our constituencies.

I have to say, also, that we actually benefited from European funding in relation to the work that we've done, and indeed in terms of coastal erosion, and the work that's been done with our coastal path in terms of sea defences, and indeed other flood risk defences that we have invested in. Again, our partnership with local government, who are the authorities who are responsible for delivering the projects, with our funding support, is key. So, this is another partnership that I believe is very robust in Wales, but, as I said, the Cabinet Secretary has heard the point about your local question.

I'd like to place on record my disappointment that we won't have an opportunity today to discuss the general principles of the Senedd Cymru (Electoral Candidate Lists) Bill. I was one of the members of the Business Committee who agreed to a truncated timetable in terms of scrutiny by committees, and, as a member of the Senedd's Reform Bill Committee that undertook that scrutiny, I'd like to express my discontent that the timetable has changed, because the committees could have had the usual time to scrutinise the Bill. We accept that there's a UK general election at the moment, but that is beneficial in this regard, that it has happened more swiftly, because it means that you can have these discussions. So, can I ask you to continue with the ambition to introduce it in time for 2026, and to demand the right to do so from the next UK Government?

Secondly, I'm sure you're aware, as a constituency Member of the Senedd for the area, of the ongoing sewage spills impacting the river Ogmore and Ogmore-by-Sea beach. The beach has been classified as 'abnormal' by Natural Resources Wales, and is one of the two worst beaches in Wales for water quality, with people being advised not to swim, despite it being a designated bathing area in 2023. However, some people are still not aware of the risk and continue to enter the water. So, can I ask for a statement from the Cabinet Secretary for Climate Change and Rural Affairs on this issue, updating the Senedd on the situation, and the steps being taken to rectify the situation, and warn people of the dangers?

Thank you very much, Heledd Fychan, for your very important question. And thank you also for your interest in this matter.

We were very grateful for the work that was undertaken at speed, at pace, by the Reform Bill Committee, and indeed the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee, and indeed the Finance Committee, in relation to the Senedd Cymru (Electoral Candidate Lists) Bill. I'm fortunate, of course, to be the Member in charge of that Bill, and Members will be aware that I have circulated a letter that I wrote to the Chairs of all of those committees at the end of last week, to say that we need to give due consideration to the 47 recommendations that we received from those committees—we received the reports on 7 June—and that we need to respond as fully and appropriately as possible ahead of the Stage 1 debate. So, I did take the decision, on behalf of the Welsh Government, to delay the Stage 1 debate on the general principles of the Bill until 16 July 2024. I hope my letter, which has now been circulated to all Members, clarifies the position as far as this is concerned.

But I also would say that it's very important that we do look fully at those reports, because what is so good about the reports, particularly, I have to say, the Reform Bill Committee report—and I appreciate that the Dirprwy Lywydd is the Chair of that Reform Bill Committee, the pwyllgor—is that it's really great to see that the majority of Members on that committee endorse the general principles of this Bill. We were waiting to hear, as a result of the evidence that was given, and also the fact that the Reform Bill Committee acknowledged the strength of the academic and international evidence that was given to that committee. And I will take this opportunity, Heledd Fychan and Dirprwy Lywydd, to say how delighted I was by the evidence given by Joyce Watson and the women's caucus, which is a cross-party caucus in this Senedd, backing this Bill. I think that gives you an indication of my commitment in terms of taking this Bill forward.

Your second point and question is also very important, in relation to the situation we find ourselves in in Ogmore. This abuts more than one constituency, more than one region, as you acknowledge, Heledd Fychan—myself and indeed Sarah Murphy, from Bridgend. Obviously, high bathing water quality is a priority for the Welsh Government. Outdoor swimming, water-based recreational activities are particularly popular in Ogmore-by-Sea, in my constituency. I was disappointed with the 'poor' classification given to Ogmore in 2023, but it is work being undertaken with Natural Resources Wales and Dŵr Cymru Welsh Water, as they continue to investigate the catchment, to identify and deliver the necessary water-quality improvements.

So, I think the good news is that, as of midnight on 17 June, last night, NRW have now lifted their abnormal situation notification, which was in place at Ogmore. The incident and wider catchment investigations are still under way, so we can't comment any further. But I am grateful to the Cabinet Secretary who has, I can say, agreed to meet with myself and Sarah Murphy, and I'm sure will want to also engage with other Senedd Members with an interest.

But can I also pay tribute to those citizens of the area, who have continuously raised this as an issue, and not just the community and county councils, but also particular individuals? And perhaps I could name Alun Phillips, as being one of those campaigners who have not only raised these issues, but also organised the all-important cleaning of the beach, the removing of old tyres and plastic waste, which just demonstrates the commitment of local citizens and residents to water quality in Ogmore. 

Across Aberconwy, residents and visitors are being completely deprived of mobile signal. We have masts, but they are simply overwhelmed. An engineer recently informed me that the mast by Venue Cymru is already at 140 per cent capacity. But just look, Minister—Cabinet Secretary—at the headlines over the weekend:

'Mobile networks swamped by tourists causing "embarrassing" problems for North Wales' 

and

'Tourism surge Wales strains mobile networks hitting local businesses'. 

The consequences of overloading these masts are serious: mobile payment machines are failing, leaving businesses unable to take payments; residents and visitors cannot get hold of loved ones. Mobile service providers are informing residents and businesses that they now need to wait until winter to have a reliable service restored. It simply isn't good enough. 

Llandudno, Aberconwy, and, I guess, all our constituencies, need twenty-first century technology. While mobile coverage continues to improve across the country, 86 UK-funded 4G masts are currently being rolled out in Wales. But will you make a statement now on how you believe, or ask the Cabinet Secretary what actions they are taking to speed up this mobile phone signal and connections? Diolch. 

Diolch yn fawr, Janet Finch-Saunders. Well, what's interesting, of course, is this is a question that I would have thought you would have put to your colleagues in the UK Government, in terms of the powers and responsibilities. [Interruption.] It's not devolved.

It doesn't matter. [Laughter.] You do have some—. You have—. You have—. 

I will be very respectful, actually— 

To think you're not interested—

Janet, I don't want a conversation going on. You've asked the question. Listen to the answer.  

Can I just be very respectful, Janet, of your point, because I am sure this is shared by many across this Chamber? But we just do need to clarify, for the benefit of the record and for those who are involved in this business statement—as I respond to the business statement—that this is not devolved. But we have, as a Welsh Government, continuously invested in this, because we absolutely agree, Janet Finch-Saunders, that this is part of our infrastructure, isn't it? It's part of our infrastructure not just for tourism, but for education, for the economy, for energy, for all aspects of life. So, I think, obviously, in our general election period that we're in, this is a call, obviously, to the current Conservative Government—the failure of 14 years—

Oh, here we go.

—of lack of investment. But also, I have to say, I recall in having, particularly in relation to social justice and inclusion, and of course Lesley Griffiths will be very familiar and, indeed, Rebecca Evans, when you've had responsibility as well for digital inclusion, that this is something where we, actually, also did invest a lot of European funding in this, and we've worked hard and had our digital strategy, which, of course, is crucial, because—. We've mentioned tourism, we've mentioned education, but also let's mention health, access to health and social care as well. 

As chair of the cross-party group on women, I am extremely disappointed that there won't be a Stage 1 debate on the candidates Bill this afternoon, as intended, and that it's been pushed back a month to 16 July. This will mean, of course, that Stage 2 won't be able to start tomorrow and that the whole timetable for the Bill is being pushed back. What will running the clock down mean? Well, there's a risk that it'll mean that we will have a larger Senedd, elected in a fairer way, but there'll be a real risk that a lack of equality and a lack of diversity will continue as an unacceptable feature of the Welsh Parliament. We will have incomplete reform if the candidates Bill, which is an integral part of the jigsaw, is not implemented. 

The letter that you've referred to already, which has been sent to Members of the Senedd, does not justify the rationale for delaying this afternoon's vote. The rationale doesn't hold water. Reports from Senedd committees recommend progressing to Stages 2 and 3 and call on you to have discussions with the new Labour Government in Westminster before Stage 4, because that Labour Government could make an Order in Council to give power to the Senedd to pass the Bill, putting the implementation of the proposals contained within it beyond any doubt.

I have to ask whether this the latest example of this new 'partnership' in action. It's not two Labour Governments working hand in hand for Wales, but rather a weak Welsh Labour Government in Wales just taking their instructions meekly from London.

Siân, can you draw to a close?

The unnecessary delay is a major step backwards. I am drawing to a close. Could you please ensure that the amended timetable does allow for the full package of reforms to be implemented and that there should be no rowing back on the pledge made in your programme for government? And I do quote page 7 in your programme for government:

'introduce gender quotas in law.'

Thank you very much, Siân Gwenllian. Thank you for your comments and questions.

Clearly, one of the most disappointing points when we introduced this Bill was the fact that the Llywydd ruled that this was not in compliance. This is one of the crucial things about how we take forward a Bill where there are issues about that grey area, which can be tested and, of course, was contested, It was looked at in terms of scrutiny at Stage 1 in terms of legal competence. So, it was disappointing that we set off on that step—that we did not get that backing from the Llywydd in terms of acknowledging that this Bill could have recognised the legal competence for us here in the Senedd.

So, I was really grateful to both of the committees who actually addressed these issues, and particularly the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee, who were looking at the issue particularly of compliance and competence. I think one of the important things about this is that both committees have come up with a range of recommendations. Particularly as you referred to the letter that I've circulated, they've asked us to engage with the UK Government after the UK general election. We had no idea we would have a general election when we were going through Stage 1.

Recommendations in both reports relate to the potential risk to the 2026 Senedd ordinary election associated with the implementation of the legislation in time for that election. For us, I think protecting that 2026 Senedd ordinary election is absolutely of key importance. Also, I think, as to the concerns about the risk not just in terms of getting everything in time for the 2026 election, many stakeholders came back and said that we should not take that risk in terms of the implementation of the wider reform. So, we had to take those concerns seriously. The response has been entirely—. I realise I'm responding as the Member in charge, Dirprwy Lywydd, here today. We had to take that seriously in terms of the recommendations that came from the reports and also from the evidence.

So, my commitment is wholly towards getting this electoral candidates list Bill on the statute book, and sometimes we have to look at that in terms of timing. I want to get it on the statute book because, as the Reform Bill Committee said, the Bill is a step towards delivering fully diverse representation in the Senedd. And I think we are also discussing—and we'll have the opportunity when we look at the Elections and Elected Bodies (Wales) Bill, which is being taken forward by the Counsel General—what we can do in terms of voluntary guidance for 2026 if we cannot get it through in time for the 2026 election. I have referred to this in my letter, in terms of that voluntary guidance, where we can ask parties if they will voluntarily implement a gender quotas route, which has been proven in 130 countries across the world as being an important way to deliver on that diversity that we call for. We want to remove potential barriers to more women's participation in politics in Wales.

And can I just finally say that what was interesting as a result of the evidence given is that quite a lot came back about what was described as quota plus. It was the quota, but addressing other barriers, and I know that those barriers have been discussed not just by the cross-party women's group, but, indeed, in giving evidence to, particularly, the Reform Bill Committee in terms of the ways in which we need to address the other barriers that impede women's progress in terms of participating in politics in Wales.

And finally, I just thank the women's caucus, which is a cross-party group, and which is chaired, and evidence was given, by Joyce Watson and Rhianon Passmore, and Heledd Fychan, in terms of your role as well in the Reform Bill Committee. So, I hope we can have a fuller debate, Deputy Llywydd, on this matter. I know we will on 16 July.

Back to the real world, I'd like to call for a statement again from the Cabinet Secretary for local government on the waste collection chaos in Denbighshire, which is a result of the Welsh Government-funded scheme. We are three weeks into the Trolibocs bin system roll-out and my inbox is full of constituents' e-mails who are in dismay about the chaos that has been caused by Denbighshire County Council's inability to introduce the new bin system and ensure that all collections are made. As a result, countless people are contacting me about repeat missed collections, and this is now becoming a serious potential risk to public health, with waste piling up outside, pavements and highways becoming a magnet for seagulls and rodents, a bit like something back in the late 1970s. We shouldn't have to put up with this, especially when the new bins are likely to discourage recycling, contrary to their purported goals. The Trolibocs system was introduced by Denbighshire council, despite public opposition, due to a handsome investment by the Welsh Government. So could the Welsh Government outline whether they will reassess the scheme in light of the myriad issues it has brought to people's doors, and have a discussion with Denbighshire County Council about the best way to move forward, with the scheme's abandonment still left on the table? Thank you.

Can I just say that I'm utterly disgusted by what Gareth Davies said, by saying 'back to the real world.' Why do we need a gender quotas Bill? Because we need better representation of women, and I have to say, let's look over there, where we certainly need this gender quotas Bill. I think it's shocking that we have that disregard of a piece of legislation that was taken through by three committees.

I will answer your question. You've raised this question every week. Why can't Denbighshire County Council be given the opportunity to implement this kerbside recycling collection without you coming back week after week undermining them, undermining your authority? Actually, neighbouring authorities like Conwy are delivering on kerbside recycling collection. Of course there are teething problems, we know that, but the Cabinet Secretary, who's sitting here, who's going to be proudly talking about the fact that Wales is the second most successful country in the world shortly, will be talking about this further.

Finally, Dirprwy Lywydd, can I just say—

Trefnydd. 

—we've got expert advisers, WRAP Cymru, and they're working with Denbighshire?

Trefnydd, one second please. I appreciate it. The Member who asked the question should not keep commenting from a sedentary position. Let the Member responding have a chance to respond, please. 

Diolch yn fawr. The final point was that WRAP Cymru are their expert advisers, and they're working with Denbighshire to resolve immediate issues. I look forward to not having this question, although I'm sure it may come back next week, in the business statement.

And finally, Natasha Asghar. 

Thank you so much, Deputy Presiding Officer. Cabinet Secretary, please may I ask for a statement from the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care about the provision of NHS dentistry in south-east Wales? I know that it's a topic that many of us have touched upon from different parties, but I have actually been contacted by a number of constituents following a decision taken by Beaufort Park Dental Surgery in Chepstow to stop providing NHS services from the end of August this year. Cabinet Secretary, this decision has understandably caused a great deal of concern, with patients now frantically searching for a new NHS dentist, which we all know are in scarce supply.

An investigation carried out by the British Dental Association found that 93 per cent of dental practices are not taking on new NHS adult patients, which is the worst rate in the UK, and those fortunate enough to be on an NHS dentist's books could be facing a wait of up to 26 weeks before actually getting an appointment. Now, one constituent has actually gone ahead and told me that he has heard absolutely nothing from Aneurin Bevan University Health Board following Beaufort Park's decision, with others concerned about the impact this will have on those who cannot actually afford private treatment. This latest announcement actually follows revelations that some residents in Blaenau Gwent are facing years on waiting lists to see an NHS dentist or are being forced to drive hundreds of miles to receive treatment across the border. I'm sure you'll agree, Cabinet Secretary, that this is completely unacceptable, and a statement from the Cabinet Secretary for health about the current situation, outlining where my constituents can find NHS dental treatment, would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.

Clearly, the investment that we're making in dentistry and, indeed, the updated contract with our dental profession in Wales is helping us deliver for dentistry. Indeed, as the Member says, it's so important in terms of access to NHS dentistry. And, of course, this is very much dependent on the decisions of those dentists themselves in terms of their contract position. But, certainly, I will be raising this with the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care, and the particular challenge that you raise at a local level today.

I thank the Trefnydd. 

Item 3 is a statement by the Cabinet Secretary for Culture and Social Justice on Refugee Week: our home. I call on the Cabinet Secretary, Lesley Griffiths. 

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. This week marks Refugee Week, a celebration of the contributions sanctuary seekers make to Wales. Refugee Week brings together people from all backgrounds to create better understanding within our communities, and promotes integration and equality for all. The theme for this year’s Refugee Week celebration is 'our home'. Everyone has their own sense of what home means. It may be the place where you grew up or the place where you gather with your family. For most sanctuary seekers arriving in Wales, they have been denied these experiences of home, often in very cruel and painful ways. Sanctuary seekers are not just geographically displaced; most will have lost their families, possessions, careers and connections.

Home should also be the place where you feel safe and valued, and this is what we seek to ensure in a nation of sanctuary. Despite the loss sanctuary seekers have experienced, we should reflect on the assets they have—their talents, experience, resilience and culture. We seek to harness those assets to build a shared future and home. Wales has shown time and again over the last century and more that it is a country that welcomes people from across the world. This has been demonstrated so powerfully in the last two years by Welsh households directly sponsoring 4,300 Ukrainians to come to the UK. A further 800 Ukrainians have visas and could also travel to Welsh host sponsors. We owe a debt of gratitude to all Homes for Ukraine hosts who have embodied the role of ambassadors for the nation of sanctuary vision on behalf of the Welsh Government. Thank you for everything you have done and continue to do in providing homes and a warm Welsh welcome.

We also support and fund hosting arrangements for a wider group of asylum seekers through our partners, Housing Justice Cymru. We want to harness the enthusiasm and experiences of Homes for Ukraine hosts and create a sustainable opportunity for sanctuary seekers to be accommodated, regardless of where they come from.

In addition to the Homes for Ukraine individual sponsor route, we've operated a Welsh Government supersponsor route since March 2022. Over 3,300 visa holders have since arrived in Wales, with the majority initially accommodated in our initial accommodation estate and then moved on to longer term homes across Wales. The team Wales approach between the Welsh Government, local authorities, household hosts and others has been critical in making the supersponsor route such a success.

We recently closed our final initial accommodation site in Denbighshire, with successful move-ons for those who were remaining at the site. We are immensely proud of the teamwork that has enabled so many Ukrainians to find safety in Wales. I encourage all Members to read the Audit Wales report on the scheme, which was published in March this year, highlighting the way partners worked together in very challenging circumstances.

We are extremely proud of our history of welcome. However, there is still a lot to achieve if we can ever wholeheartedly declare Wales as a nation of sanctuary. Individuals arriving from Ukraine still need us to focus on ensuring equality of opportunity and good awareness of changes to UK Government schemes that may impact on their ability to stay in the UK. I'm committed to ongoing engagement with Ukrainians and the UK Government to ensure this focus is maintained.

Beyond Ukraine, there are thousands of sanctuary seekers from across the world living in Wales. We continue to work very closely with the Home Office, the Department for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities and the Ministry of Defence to ensure Afghan citizens arriving in Wales receive the support they need and deserve due to their service to UK armed forces during their time in Afghanistan. We continue to fund the British Red Cross to help refugees living in Wales be reunited with their loved ones through the UK family reunion scheme. The Welsh Government takes a children’s rights approach by ensuring families can be reunited in our communities.

We are the only Government in the UK funding this work. Refugees in Wales will never truly feel at home without their loved ones, and living without them can cause mental ill-health and financial insecurity. It is a benefit to our communities and a privilege for us to be able to support the work of the British Red Cross. We continue to push for a family reunion scheme with fewer barriers, taking the lessons learned of the now-closed Ukraine family scheme, to ensure families are reunited as quickly and as often as possible.

The UK Government is responsible for the asylum system in Wales. However, we have an ambition to make Wales a welcoming home for asylum seekers whilst they remain here. We have continued to provide funding to the Welsh Refugee Council and its partners to deliver our Wales sanctuary service and move-on services, as well as advocating for improvements to asylum processes to align with Welsh policies and our wider vision. I could say much more about asylum processes and legislation. However, I am conscious of the UK pre-election period, and discussion on some of these points may be more fruitful later in the year.

We are alert to the threat posed by far-right influences and the atmosphere of intolerance this can create. We have seen protests outside accommodation sites, and I want to reiterate there is no home for hate in Wales. We know we can do more to communicate what is meant by the nation of sanctuary vision and to find more effective ways of fostering good relations.

I am pleased the Welsh Government has been able to support the Nation of Sanctuary Awards again this year, which took place last night. The nominees and winners are excellent examples of the contribution sanctuary seekers make to Wales. Their stories are Welsh stories. It is our privilege to provide them with a home in our community of communities, and we in Wales are strengthened by doing so. Diolch.

Cabinet Secretary, the statement today references how successful Welsh Government policy has been on helping refugees, particularly those fleeing from Ukraine, in recent years. It is right that countries should help refugees and asylum seekers wherever possible, and ensure their safety and their prosperity. It is also right that their future should be considered as a priority, including integration into society and personal development with regard to skills and education. So, I regret that there was nothing in this afternoon's statement on Welsh Government policy that ensures safe and secure integration into our society. And also, there was no consideration of how this Welsh Labour Government could prioritise learning for those individuals and communities.

You will be aware, Cabinet Secretary, that in Llantwit Major there have recently been 90 temporary homes built on a former primary school site for the purpose of housing Ukrainian refugees. You will also know that there has been some strong local opposition towards the development and residents have now set up a local action group. Opponents believe that the houses not only look but feel like a prison and are dismayed by the fact that they were not consulted on the proposals for the site, with no engagement with the local community. Rather than consulting the community and taking them along with the process, the Vale of Glamorgan Council have spent £25 million on buildings that are lying dormant until planning approval is granted and decisions have been made.

Cabinet Secretary, this site now has the potential to create a hostile public feeling against refugees who may be housed there. There is always the potential risk of increased tension when refugees are being found accommodation. Therefore, steps need to be put in place where the community is taken along with the decisions so that the sanctuary Wales is offering is not somewhere that is hostile to those seeking refuge. What steps is this Welsh Government taking to ensure local authorities are being sensitive to the local community when housing refugees?

Additionally, transport for refugees and asylum seekers is a crucial offer on which many rely for their day-to-day business. It's my understanding, however, that the welcome bus ticket scheme has now ended, and many asylum seekers in Wales find themselves in positions where they cannot afford to travel. I'm sure you can appreciate, Cabinet Secretary, that the harder it is for refugees and asylum seekers to integrate and find work, without proper help and provision, social problems and other issues such as crime occur, because people find themselves in desperate situations.

Another major issue is that refugees and asylum seekers can easily become targets for exploitation as they look to find an income outside of regular channels. Being in such a vulnerable position, they are unfortunately prime targets for modern slavery. Would you agree with me, Cabinet Secretary, that it is imperative that public transport is made available and that proper provision is made to help those who need it to integrate themselves into our Welsh communities? What proposals do you now have to make public transport a free option for refugees and asylum seekers?

Education is the final point I wanted to address today. It's a vital component of anybody's development, and the best possible standard should be made available, along with suitable support for those who provide education. We know that there are many demands made of schools accommodating refugees and asylum seekers. Primary schools in particular have been under enormous pressure having to deal with the range of languages spoken. In some schools, there are up to 44 different languages used, and that obviously presents a very difficult scenario for headteachers on how to reallocate resources in order to account for that. Teachers also have to face the issue that children are sometimes moved after a relatively short period because their status has changed. There is continuous disruption for refugees and asylum seekers in this context, and there must be better support and guidance offered to everyone involved.

The truth is the Welsh Labour Government doesn't have sufficient levels of data, like in many other areas, to help them draw a picture of the situation and allow for strategies to be thought about and solutions to be found. There's a real need to increase resources to help schools manage it, so that the ones that deal with these issues day to day can do it in the best possible way. So, Cabinet Secretary, what is this Welsh Government doing to ensure that refugees and asylum seekers are offered proper support and guidance for their own unique situations, and how is the Welsh Government ensuring that sufficient levels of data are collected so that schools and other public services understand their own positions and how they can help in whichever way that they can? Diolch. 

Thank you very much for that series of questions. I'm going to start with transport, because I agree with you that transport is really important. We're very proud of what the welcome ticket scheme did contribute for over two years. I remember travelling back from Cardiff to Wrexham on a train following Senedd business probably about a year ago now and meeting somebody who was a refugee who had taken the time to travel from Holyhead down to Cardiff. So, I absolutely accept that it's not just for employment purposes, which you specifically referred to, but also in order to get to know the country, if you like.

It was a very important scheme and we're very proud of what it achieved. It was introduced at pace, and it was part of our response as a Government in relation to the Ukraine war. We reckon there were about 1 million journeys taken. The scheme was a condition of the £200 million emergency funding package that we provided to the bus industry. So, whilst we absolutely recognise the benefits of it, unfortunately the first phase did finish at the end of March.

When I came into the portfolio, my predecessor, Jane Hutt, had already started to look at what we could learn from the first phase of that welcome ticket, and our intention is to use that information to develop the next phase of the scheme, to make it perhaps a bit more sustainable. Because it was introduced at pace, perhaps we hadn't been able to look at it holistically. And to make it a bit more fit for purpose as well, and to ensure that the limited resources we obviously have are focused on those most in need. So, we're working with key stakeholders, and, as I say, we do intend to launch the next phase of the welcome ticket later on this year. Unfortunately, I can't provide you with a firm timescale at the moment, but just to reassure you we are looking at that.

In relation to education and many languages being taught in school, I think our schools are dealing with that very well. It's obviously a matter for local authorities. I was in a school in my constituency last week where I think there were 33 languages, and the school has adapted because of the support they've had, not just from the local authority, but also from the Welsh Government.

You referred to something in the Vale of Glamorgan. I don't think the way that you portrayed it is accurate, and the local Member for the Vale of Glamorgan is agreeing with me. I do think it is really important that, when anything in the way that you referred to, in relation to buildings, or—. You'll be very well aware that asylum seeker and refugee policy is a reserved matter for the UK Government, and when the UK Government have tried to house refugees or asylum seekers in specific buildings, it is absolutely vital that you work with the local community, because otherwise you do get that intolerance at times, you get wrong messages, you get people coming from afar to bring their hate message, and we really don't want to see that. As I said in my opening statement, there is no home for hate here in Wales.

I hear what you say about data. It's really important that we try to make sure we've got robust data wherever possible. I know officials have been working with our partners to ensure that data collection can be strengthened. I think that covers everything you asked me. Thank you.

Thank you for the statement. Plaid Cymru believes that the emphasis on the importance of housing and the home during Refugee Week is vitally important.

Last night, I had the pleasure of attending the Welsh Refugee Council's Nation of Sanctuary Awards. I'd like to say 'well done' to all the winners and nominees, but especially to congratulate the Birth Partner Project, which won the Nation of Sanctuary Award for the wonderful work supporting women seeking sanctuary who would otherwise face birth alone. I wish you'd been there, Cabinet Secretary, not only because it was an inspirational evening, celebrating the contribution and achievements of sanctuary seekers and refugees in Wales and those that support them, but also because the chief executive officer of the Welsh Refugee Council, Andrea Cleaver, made some very important points in her speech about Wales as a nation of sanctuary. She said that the Welsh Government's laudable desire to ensure Wales is a nation of sanctuary must be more than an ideal. She likened it to a bridge—yes, supportive, welcoming, and open, but with dangerous planks missing from it, which must be filled. She referenced, for instance, the cruel and impractical 28-day eviction notice period from asylum accommodation given to those granted refugee status, which can often lead to terrible stress and even homelessness. Those living, of course, in the private rented sector in Wales enjoy the protection of no-fault eviction notices of six months. What does 'nation of sanctuary' actually mean if those who have leave to remain are not treated equally and with compassion and understanding? How is the Welsh Government addressing this issue, given housing is your responsibility?

Yesterday, in evidence to the Equality and Social Justice Committee, you revealed the Government is no longer intending to refresh the nation of sanctuary plan, although it is now five years old. It was concerning to hear this admission at the beginning of Refugee Week, and many people I spoke to last night in the Nation of Sanctuary Awards were dismayed to hear this also. The plan was published in 2019. I'm sure you'll agree it was a very different time and context for sanctuary seekers, both domestically and internationally. It contained over 130 commitments to support people seeking sanctuary in Wales. In the progress report published earlier this year, the Government said of those actions that over 99 per cent are in progress or completed, and that throughout this year you would be undertaking engagement to consider how to refresh that plan. Your predecessor, as Minister for Social Justice, explained that the aim for the next plan was to focus more heavily on the principles that will guide this Government's decision making, with fewer but more tangible outcomes and actions. So, I'd like to know what's changed, Cabinet Secretary. Why will there now be, in your words to the committee yesterday, an 'update', not a refresh? What exactly does that mean?

Unaccompanied children are some of the most vulnerable members of our society, required to navigate and engage with the complex legal process of seeking asylum, all while experiencing trauma and upheaval. Guardians can ensure that children understand and can exercise their rights, explaining processes and services, advocating for them where necessary. Calls for a guardianship service in Wales have been made since 2005, with the most recent call made in 2023 in a report commissioned by Welsh Government. During the fifth Senedd, a committee also recommended that Welsh Government should introduce a guardianship service in Wales. The establishment of a scheme like this has also been a clear expectation of the UN Committee on the Rights of the Child for over 20 years. In its 2023 concluding observations, the UN Committee on the Rights of the Child again recommended that such a service be introduced for all unaccompanied children. The Children's Society, the Bevan Foundation, the Children's Legal Centre Wales, and the British Red Cross have called on the Government, urging them to introduce such a service, available for all unaccompanied children who are already in Wales and to those on arrival in Wales. They say that, between 2020 and 2023, only 257 unaccompanied children, or 43 per cent, received support specifically for engaging with the process of seeking asylum. It could have so many benefits: advocating for the child, promoting their best interests, improving legal outcomes for them, identifying and preventing exploitation, trafficking, radicalisation, protecting their human rights, supporting integration, improving educational outcomes, and there will be benefits, of course, for those professionals working with unaccompanied children, such as cost savings and reducing workloads.

The nation of sanctuary plan commits to fund local authorities to support a pilot in relation to this, but it has never been implemented. In Scotland, however, a guardianship service has been established, and it has been proven to be extremely beneficial to young people. Considering the findings of the Bevan Foundation also, that has found that the situation in respect of immigration and asylum legal services has worsened drastically in Wales since January 2023, there are—of course, we know, because of this—unaccompanied children routinely being left—

If you could finish now.

—without representation and appeal. So, Cabinet Secretary, will you and your Government finally introduce a guardianship service here in Wales, like in Scotland, because you cannot profess to take a children's rights approach if you do not?

Thank you. I'm going to start—. First of all, I'd like to say, and I mentioned it in my original part of the statement, that we were really pleased to support the Nation of Sanctuary Awards last night. I too would like to congratulate all the winners and nominees. I think it's really important that we recognise them in this way.

I'm sorry to hear that you and others were dismayed about the comments I made in committee yesterday around the nation of sanctuary plan and vision, but I am glad to have this opportunity to say my commitment to ensuring Wales is a nation of sanctuary remains resolute, and that goes for every Cabinet Secretary and every Minister in this Welsh Government.

You asked, 'What's changed?' I suppose what's changed is I've come into portfolio. Obviously, we have the plan, which, as you say, was published back in 2019. There are lots of actions that have been completed. So, what I have asked officials to do is to look at what we needed to do. Now, it might be that at the end of all this work we do need a refresh, but at the moment, for me, we have to focus on delivery. We have spent the last two years delivering, and I want to continue to do that. But as I say, lots of actions have already been completed. Some of the actions in the plan are very long term, so we need to look at those and see if they need to be in there. But we're working with the third sector to consider if there are any gaps in terms of delivery, and if there are gaps, what we need to do to fill those gaps. I think it’s really important we continue to speak with people who have lived experience of seeking sanctuary.

One thing I am looking at with all the plans—there are a lot of plans in this portfolio, and if you look at the LGBTQ+ plan, it has a tracker, which, for me, shows the transparency. It’s really transparent as to what we are doing with that action plan, and I’ve asked officials to have a look to see if it would be worth putting such a tracker in every plan, including the nation of sanctuary plan, to see if that then will help everybody to be able to access what is happening within the plan. So, the vision, the plan: nothing has changed in respect of that, but, for me, we’ve got to continue to deliver on that. But I just want to reassure people there’s no need at all for dismay; that plan is there. Delivery is what’s important, and I will ensure that I update colleagues as we go through this piece of work.

You referred to guardianship and unaccompanied children. I think you also referred to advocacy, so we know that all children with care experience in Wales have a statutory right to advocacy. I am aware of the call to develop a separate unaccompanied children guardianship scheme, similar to the one operating in Scotland. So, officials have met with Scottish Government colleagues to discuss the scheme, and they’re considering also the report by the Children’s Society, which also called for this. So, what I’ve asked officials to do—it’s a considerable piece of work—is to carry on doing that piece of work, assess what options we have and then send me some advice on that. I will also need to work very closely with the Minister for Social Care if we are to have such a guardianship scheme.

Cabinet Secretary, I was very pleased today to host the Jo Cox Foundation here in the Senedd, and, as you know, they work to bring people together and they’re working with Refugee Week on a great walk as part of the Great Get Together and I think it’s really important that their values inform the way that Government and organisations operate, and I’m very pleased to say that in Newport I think we have some really good examples of that where we have Newport Live, as the leisure trust, taking forward a Momentwm project that partly gives cycling skills to refugees and asylum seekers. And as we’ve heard already, transport issues are very important in terms of accessing services, work, education, training, and so on, so having those bikes, being able to cycle and cycle safely I think is crucial. And they also work with the Gap project around Newport Live’s Positive Futures project, which uses sport to integrate refugees and asylum seekers into our community. They’ve been running weekly football sessions, for example, for quite some time. So, I wonder if you would just recognise some of these examples of good practice, because in all our communities, as Members of the Senedd, we want to see these values in action in terms of integration and that warm welcome.

Thank you. Yes, I would actually absolutely recognise those specific cases of, as you say, best practice. I visited Newport Live with you; it was a different scheme that we were looking at, but I could see the amazing work that they do, and that integration is so important if we are to make sure that people understand what we mean by nation of sanctuary. It is really important that people who come here, if they flee persecution or war, feel they are able to integrate in the community in the way that they would want to, and we certainly want them to do so. I know there are lots of themes in the work that we support via the Welsh Refugee Council. There are lots of examples in relation to that. I wasn’t aware of the event that you sponsored today in Jo Cox’s memory as part of her foundation, but I think, again, that’s really good, and it’s good that we still recognise the amazing work that Jo Cox did.

I didn’t answer the housing question, sorry, for Sioned Williams, and I think that is a discussion I need to have with the housing Minister, because I think it is really important, as you say, that we are able to protect people in the same way we protect Welsh people, that we protect people who are coming here looking for sanctuary, and I will certainly take that forward.

I'm proud that Wales is a nation of sanctuary, helping to ensure people are met with kindness, understanding and to help them fit into the community that they choose to live in. It can be very lonely and tough, living in a different country, away from family and friends, many having to learn a different language and trying just to fit in, especially if carrying the burden of trauma, as many refugees are.

I'm worried that elections are being used to polarise people, to grow hate instead of kindness, to turn their backs on community and being together, especially as people are struggling with the cost-of-living crisis, health appointments and adequate housing. So, Cabinet Secretary, what response would you give to this in spreading the message about what nation of sanctuary does actually mean? Thank you.

Thank you. I just mentioned to John Griffiths that sanctuary seekers are almost always escaping persecution. They're often trying to be reunited with their family members. I think what is really important, and, for me, this is the most important message of Refugee Week, is that the words that we use matter. People are not illegal, they're not simply statistics. Each individual has that story of trauma, and I'm sure that we've all in our surgeries and in our constituencies and regions met people who are completely traumatised and completely desperate. As you say, to leave your country where you understand and are aware of everything, your loved ones are there, your job is there, to end up in a country that some may never even have heard of before must be incredibly difficult to come to terms with. So, you're right about kindness and compassion. I think that's really important. I go back to my earlier answer to Tom Giffard about how this is why it's so important that our stakeholders, our partners do engage with communities so that we can get away from that intolerance that, unfortunately, we sadly hear of.

I too had the privilege to attend the Nation of Sanctuary Awards with Sioned Williams, and I want to thank the Welsh Refugee Council, the Welsh Rugby Union and Wales & West Housing Association, who I think were the main sponsors of what is becoming an important milestone in the social calendar. I think that we have so much to be proud of. I reflect on the words of Carolyn Thomas about the impact of the general election and some of the more toxic comments, but I think we have so much to be proud of and to be confident about, given how well we are becoming a multicultural nation. So, the national poet for Wales is Hanan Issa, a wonderful and extraordinarily talented Welsh-Iraqi poet; the chair of the Welsh Language Society, who was presenting the award for the Welsh language learner of the year, is Joseff Gnagbo, originally an asylum seeker from the Ivory Coast; and the top award went to Birth Partner Project as a nation of sanctuary organisation, which ensures no asylum seeker in Cardiff is giving birth alone. I wondered if you could talk to the Cabinet Secretary for health about how we could expand this project to Swansea, Wrexham and Newport, because these are the main populations where asylum seekers are housed initially, and it would be wonderful if we ensured that—. I don't want any woman, to be honest, to be on their own without somebody to stand up for them at their most vulnerable time, and if we could ensure that the wonderful work being done by Laura Santana and many other volunteers is spread across Wales, that would be a really fantastic outcome.

Yes, absolutely. I would be very happy to speak to the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care. I think the point you make around no woman being on their own when they give birth is really important, and I mentioned, to come to this country and land in a new country where you know nobody, if you are pregnant, that's another layer of difficulties that you have to face. So, I was very pleased when I saw the winners to see that scheme come to the top, and I'll be very happy, as I say, to have a discussion to see how we can spread it to the other three main dispersal areas of Newport, Swansea and Wrexham, because it's not just Cardiff, is it, where women are facing such difficulties. So, yes, I'll certainly be happy to do that.

Now we move to item 4, a statement by the Minister for Social Partnership: Creative Wales skills update. And I call for the statement by the Minister for Social Partnership: Creative Wales. Sarah Murphy.

Diolch. The growth of Wales's creative industries is recognised as one of our major economic success stories. A skilled workforce is key to ensuring the creative sector in Wales builds on this success and continues to thrive and develop, creating valued employment opportunities across Wales. This is recognised by the Welsh Government’s programme for government, which includes an ongoing commitment to supporting creative skills.

As part of this work, an industry-led creative skills advisory panel was appointed in September 2022 to advise upon a three-year creative skills action plan, which seeks to address the skills needs of Creative Wales’s three priority sectors: music, screen and games, animation and immersive technology. I was pleased to join their recent meeting, and really appreciate their commitment and expertise.

The plan outlines Creative Wales’s commitments to bring about change through its own remit and collaboration across Welsh Government portfolios and with others. It sets out 10 priorities identified by the industry for investment in skills in the priority sectors. This action plan cannot be delivered in isolation. Partnership working and collaboration with key industry stakeholders is crucial to supporting a more successful and more representative creative sector. My officials have worked across Government to help establish the creative flexible skills programme, a scheme that provides a 50 per cent subsidy for staff upskilling and training, designed to encourage creative companies to invest in their own staff training. And importantly, in line with our wider ambitions, we are currently working on a review of the creative design and media apprenticeship framework, the first of the apprenticeship frameworks to be reviewed.

A creative skills fund was launched in September 2022 to deliver the priorities of the creative skills action plan. Seventeen projects, receiving £1.5 million of support, were supported through the inaugural round of funding, and a full report on project achievements will be published later this month. Key outputs include the establishment of a new network of screen academies at four film studios across Wales, bespoke training for Welsh music managers and music venues, and a gaming hub supporting the development of BTEC training at levels 1 to 3. Forty-six applications were submitted to the second round of the creative skills fund, launched in May of this year. And I am pleased to announce today that a further 17 projects have been selected to receive £1.5 million of support. Details will be provided on these projects once formal offers are accepted.

Of course, there is still work to be done to ensure the creative workforce in Wales is representative of all sectors of Welsh society. Removing barriers to entry and improving career opportunities for individuals from under-represented groups is, therefore, an important focus of the creative skills action plan. Historically, there has been a dependency on informal and word-of-mouth recruitment. Overreliance on networks and archaic hiring practices can make it difficult for new talent, especially from under-represented communities, to breakthrough into the industry. This is exacerbated by the creative sector often not being seen as a viable career choice for young people or their parents.

To meet this challenge, Creative Wales has developed partnerships with a number of key strategic partners, including Beacons Cymru, National Film and Television School Cymru and Culture Connect Wales, who support diverse talent in finding opportunities in the film and tv sector in Wales. In addition, a number of the projects supported by the second round of the creative skills fund will have a particular focus on improving representation and providing opportunities for all, including those with physical disabilities, learning difficulties and neurodiversity.

Creative Wales established a Creative Wales film and tv skills stakeholder group in January 2020 to bring together key stakeholders, and the group now has over 60 members and has been incredibly valuable as an information-sharing network and in seeking to address silo working. 

We recently announced Creative Wales has worked with training providers Sgil Cymru and Screen Alliance Wales to secure a total of £1.4 million of funding, including £900,000 from the British Film Institute, with £300,000 match funding from Creative Wales and £240,000 from BBC Studios for the new BFI skills cluster, the 'One Stop Shop'. This collaborative project will provide clear and coherent signposting to either enter or progress within the screen industry in Wales, and the new cluster will provide bursary funding, co-ordinated work experience placements, training, and will have a full-time mentor on hand to offer advice. 

BBC Studios are a key delivery partner for this initiative, providing future entry-level and upskilling career pathways in the sector on continuing drama series Pobol y Cwm and Casualty, with an emphasis on recruitment of Welsh speakers and individuals from under-represented communities. Creative Wales is also working with BBC Studios on the Pobol Welsh language directors scheme, which will provide 10 directors with on-the-job training. The development of Welsh talent, such as writers, producers and directors, is vital to ensuring a continuing pipeline of productions across Wales in the future.

In terms of addressing workplace challenges, particularly around crew retention, Creative Wales has funded a two-year well-being facilitators pilot scheme, and is working with the Film and TV Charity to help prevent stress, mental health issues, bullying, harassment and discrimination on productions. Creative Wales also supported the RoadieMedic service of Focus Wales's music festival in Wrexham in May this year. This forms part of the work that the Welsh Government, through Creative Wales, is doing to develop a road map to help to improve working practices in the creative industries in Wales, using the findings of the Creative Industries Policy and Evidence Centre's 'The Good Work Review' report.

All Welsh Government-funded productions are mandated to provide paid entry-level and upskilling trainee placements, with more than 420 placements supported since January 2020. This has been a game changer in terms of providing experience, crucial on-the-job training, and that all-important first credit on scripted, unscripted, games and animation productions, such as Sex Education, Men Up, House of the Dragon, Lost Boys and Fairies, Maid of Sker 2, and Mini Buds. At least one trainee placement on each funded production must be provided to an apprenticeship from the crew shared apprenticeship scheme, operating in both north and south Wales, and 40 apprentices have benefited from placements on Welsh Government-funded productions to date. This apprenticeship model is now a recognised model of best practice across the UK, and my officials are currently working to extend this level 3 qualification to cover the digital, animation, games and music sectors. This work will continue alongside the review of the creative design and media apprenticeship framework. I am committed to continuing all of this good practice through a clear and focused approach on creative skills to ensure our workforce has the skills and talent necessary to flourish. Diolch.

Can I thank you, Minister, for your statement today? Is it your first statement as a Minister?

Not quite.

Oh, there we go. Congratulations, nonetheless, as the new Minister for Social Partnership. And as my constituency MS, I hope you don't take your eye off the ball locally as well—that's very important.

We're all aware how important the creative industries are, and becoming an increasingly valuable part of our Welsh economy. Indeed, UK Government estimates reveal that the creative industries contributed around £126 billion to the UK economy in 2022. The film industry, particularly, has been increasing its reach in Wales, using more Welsh talent and Wales's beautiful geography to produce films. So, it should not surprise us that the Welsh film industry is going to need a continuous supply of talent for the future. We now have an enormous opportunity to help Welsh children to develop those skills and creative talents that the sector needs in order for it to grow and to flourish. But Creative Wales doesn't appear to have any specific funding streams that encourage children or teenagers to explore the creative industry, and even the youth content fund is currently closed.

As we've recently seen with the potential closure of both the Saturday junior conservatoire and the young RWCMD drama course by the Royal Welsh College of Music and Drama, the provision for helping children to be creative and develop talent and enthusiasm early in their lives is seemingly withdrawn. It's therefore vital, Minister, that resources are made available for our children and young people to develop those skills, otherwise so many are going to find it harder or even be denied huge opportunities to develop careers in this sector.

I recognise the work being done by many in the sector to provide opportunities for people to upskill and improve their career prospects. And I believe that, if Wales is able to create a robust pool of talent, there's no reason why we could not be a global competitor in the creative sector. But I hope you recognise then that that needs to be met with investment. So, with that in mind, what efforts are you taking, and what funding are you making available, to help schoolchildren and teenagers to explore the creative industry as a potential career path? And how are these opportunities ensuring good-quality experiences and learning opportunities for the future workforce?

In terms of attracting international film projects to Wales, it would be quite beneficial if international teams were able to use Cardiff Wales airport to fly in equipment, as well as production teams and film crews and the like. I've spoken with people in the film industry who've expressed frustration that they have lost projects, or projects have become more costly, because of the extra time international crews have had to take transporting their equipment via Heathrow, only then having to drive it all the way back into Wales.

In terms of improving the international reputation of Wales as a place for filming, which I understand is the ambition of Creative Wales, what specific conversations have you had with the Cabinet Secretary for transport in terms of improving Cardiff's airport as a transport hub that can be used to support the film industry in Wales? The Welsh film industry will not flourish if it can't compete with other countries, and at the moment Cardiff airport does little to encourage a positive international reputation.

And finally, Cabinet Secretary, I wanted to pick up a point regarding freelancers. As you'll be aware, the creative industry relies very heavily on freelancers, and I believe it's in the region of 75 per cent of those that work in the creative industries. One of the problems is that they can go long periods without employment, which makes a career less attractive to young people who are starting out on those careers. Deaf and disabled creative freelancers not only face this challenge, but also the fact that a significant proportion find that they have insufficient support when at work, citing poor understanding or accommodation of access needs and a perception of them as irritations, rather than assets. So, what specific measures are the Welsh Government taking to support freelancers, and in particular deaf and disabled freelancers, by providing mentoring and continuous professional development to help them find regular work? Diolch.

Thank you very much for all of those questions. And I agree with much of it. As you said, the growth of Wales's creative industries is recognised as one of the major economic success stories that we have. The latest statistics on the creative sector supported by Creative Wales show this part of the economy continues to perform well, generating an annual turnover of £1.4 billion and employing 32,500 people, with a significant freelance workforce, which you touched on, which I'll come to. And a skilled workforce is key to ensuring the creative sector in Wales continues to thrive; I completely agree. In terms of some of the funding, what I also didn't touch on, which I think is relevant, is that officials have worked with the Welsh Government skills department to establish the creative flexible skills programme, and that is ring fencing £100,000 per annum to provide a 50 per cent subsidy for staff in upskilling training.

But coming on to your specific question about young people, I know this is something that my colleague Rhianon Passmore is particularly passionate about, about music for young people. And that is one of the three priority sectors that we have in Creative Wales. So, just to give you an example of what we are doing with young people in schools, there are the soundcheck sessions. It's a project developed and run by the Independent Venue Community through Creative Wales funding, which offers young people—so that's aged 14 plus—the chance to go to a venue before doors open to the public to watch the artists playing that night's sound check and then have a Q&A with them, along with some of the crew and venue team. So, it's really inspiring young people, again, to see this as a viable career and to give them that confidence. So, there certainly is work happening in that area.

When it comes to the airport, this would be something that would go between, yes, the Cabinet Secretary for transport, but also the Cabinet Secretary for the economy. I have not had a specific opportunity to go and visit the airport yet, but I do hope to, because I would always like to see the work being done being done in social partnership, and that is where I come in—my portfolio. So, I'm very happy to follow up on that. 

And then you mentioned about freelancers. Now, when it comes to freelancers, I actually met with the Broadcasting, Entertainment, Communications and Theatre Union yesterday, and we talked an awful lot about freelancers. As you know, during the pandemic, Wales was the only nation to have a freelancers fund, which was hugely appreciated and kept many people able to—you know, not having to leave the sector completely. Interestingly, one of the key findings in their most recent report, which came out at the beginning of the year, was that universal credit is not appropriate for freelancers, because, by the time they've applied for it, sometimes they pick up work again; sometimes, it goes. It just doesn't work with their type of working schedule. I am curious to see—. Ireland are currently trialling a basic income scheme for people in the creative industries. I'd like us to keep an eye on that. But, ultimately, this will be a conversation that people will need to have with the new incoming Government after 4 July. I obviously hope that's a Labour Government, as they have committed to an industrial strategy that would include the creative industries. 

I think I've touched on all of your questions. [Interruption.] Deaf and disabled. Yes. Well, as I mentioned earlier on, we have the 17 projects that are due to be announced—£1.5 million, again, worth of funding. There has been a particular focus on supporting people with disabilities and learning difficulties. So, once that is announced, I hope that you will be happy to see that we've definitely tried to accommodate and to support people in that area. Diolch.

Thank you. Heledd Fychan.

Thank you acting Llywydd, and thank you, Minister, for your statement this afternoon. Clearly, this is a crucial sector for Wales. I'm sure you will have familiarised yourself with the report of the culture committee on the creative industries workforce, which made a number of recommendations, although this plan was in place. It's concerning that there is so much more that needs to be done, and also some shocking statistics in terms of how many freelancers are being lost from the sector for many reasons. Clearly, the support during COVID had been appreciated, but things have been difficult since then, many people haven't returned, and we're seeing far too many people losing income from these industries, or having to leave these sectors, which are so crucially important to us but we are seeing a decline in them.

Can I ask you, therefore, there's been a reduction in the Creative Wales budget in this financial year compared to the last financial year, what impact has that had on the creative skills action plan?

If I may turn to just giving one example, because there was a focus in your response to Tom Giffard around music. Obviously, fantastic, the schemes that are going on, but Music Venue Trust have been in correspondence. I met with them recently, talking about the impact of the recent cut in business rates relief from the 75 per cent to 40 per cent, and the immediate threat of this to Welsh grass-roots music venues. They talk about 16 venues possibly having to close, which is 33 per cent of all the venues in Wales. So, in terms of what you were saying in terms of how young people benefit or work with these kinds of venues, that could be really detrimental. Also, in terms of some of the stats that they've presented: 588 jobs, £8 million of economic activity generated by them currently, 3,500 events and 30,000 performance opportunities. We know that a number of these grass-roots music venues as well are giving that opportunity. I've seen lots in Clwb y Bont of those young bands—perhaps that's their first opportunity. So, when they close, it does have a huge impact.

So, can I ask, one of the issues is, you're developing the workforce, but there has to be somewhere for them to then work and progress. So, I understand your focus on the fund specifically today, but how are you working to ensure that some of the other initiatives or decisions taken by Government aren't actually impacting then on your ability to implement the plan? I think the same is true in terms of apprenticeships. There's an emphasis on apprenticeships, and we've seen a cut to apprenticeship budgets and so on. So, can I ask, in terms of how the actual plan is progressing, how you're alleviating the impact of the cuts that have been to ensure that we are still able to develop the workforce, as has been evidenced with countless inquiries?

Thank you very much. I am familiar with the recommendations from the committee. To be honest, it very much correlates with what I'm hearing since I've been in the role and meeting with people from across the sector. You are right when it comes to people, freelancers in particular, leaving these industries. I think, as I referenced the BECTU report, about a third in Wales now are considering just leaving completely because they haven't got that stability, the cost-of-living crisis, of course, if you haven't got the savings.

We also discussed that diversity is about socioeconomic diversity as well. Do you only end up with people who can afford to go without work for some time? How does that work with families and caring responsibilities? This was something that, like I said, was at the top of the agenda. I do believe it is something that will need to be discussed with the UK Government, and I will absolutely support and push for that wholeheartedly. The model does not work for freelancers, it does not work for our creative industries. So, that's something that I'm very committed to. 

The other thing that BECTU mentioned to me—and it's one of those things that sometimes is about unintended consequences. So, of course, one of the things in many areas—not just Wales, but also the south-west, also London, also the north of England—they'll have productions and then they'll say, 'Obviously, please try and recruit locally.' Well, that's fine if you've got projects in your area; if you don't have projects in your area, then you're actually not getting recruited locally, and you're not getting recruited in London either, where the jobs are. That's why, as I've laid out today, so much of the investment is in ensuring that these are projects that are all Wales-wide.

When it comes to the funding, all the budgets, of course, have had cuts to them. I think that, actually, the Welsh Government has really supported the digital, the creative and everything that I've been talking about today, more than other Governments. We haven't slashed it at all, we've still got the £1.5 million fund and we're still going to be providing 17 projects this year, just as we have in previous years. I would say that the cuts, really, within the portfolio, have more been towards things like the Books Council of Wales, which I visited recently as well, and we discussed how that's had an impact, and obviously discussed the future of that. But in terms of the core delivery of Creative Wales, I wouldn't say at the moment that—. I actually think that it's been very successful and the next 17 projects now are going to go even further than that.

When you mentioned the business rates and the Wales Music Venue Trust, I actually met with them, as well, recently. We had a really good conversation about everything that you've said, which did end up going into that nostalgia of all the gigs that I went to myself around the Welsh Valleys when I was growing up. And we've lost places like Barfly and Gwdihŵ and things in Cardiff as well, where those medium-to-small bands would get an opportunity to sell out on a Friday and Saturday night. One of the things that we did talk about was that we've got really big stadium gigs coming to Cardiff—we've got one tonight, we've got one next week with Foo Fighters—and what could be done, really, to work with them and those promoters and those stadiums to see if there's a way that we can give back to local music and grass-roots music. That's something that I'm really supporting them with in exploring, as well as the artist pledge that they're asking Welsh artists to sign up to, which I'm also going to be helping them to promote. I think that's really crucial, as well, for the future.

I hope I've covered everything, but if not, I'm more than happy to have a conversation about this afterwards. Everything that you've said is a concern, and, honestly, this is what we're trying to do with this fund.

Diolch.

In north Wales, Wrexham and Flintshire made a bid to become an investment zone for advanced manufacturing, creative industries and digital. Lately, I've been hearing that creative industries and digital have been dropped to just talk about advanced manufacturing, which has been a real concern. In north Wales, there's a lot of potential, we've got Theatr Clwyd, we've got new studios being opened up and lots of courses being offered in Wrexham and other places as well. On digital, Wrexham recently made a bid to be a city of culture, but broadband, digital was an issue. So, we really need to have that as well. So, Cabinet Secretary, would you be able to make a case for us to retain creative industries and digital, as well as advanced manufacturing for north Wales? We can really build on it.

Thank you very much for the question. Yes, as you mentioned, the investment zones are a joint programme between the Welsh Government and the UK Government, and decisions are paused at the moment on this programme until the new UK Government is in place. The investment zones were intended to focus on addressing barriers, as you've said, for high-growth potential sectors or clusters, and to have that kind of narrow focus.

The Flintshire and Wrexham investment zone was selected on the basis of a joint objective assessment by the Welsh Government and UK Government, with the area showing particular strengths in advanced manufacturing. So, essentially, the private sector-led proposal didn't fit with that focus and, ultimately, it was not necessarily dropped, it was just that it was not part of the agreement for the investment zone going further. So, that's the specific update on that investment zone. However, what I would say is that it doesn't mean that there's not an absolute commitment to the digital, to the creative in north Wales. As I mentioned in my other responses today, many of the projects that are being supported and are happening in Wales are happening in the north of Wales, and we are really supporting that.

I also wanted to point out as well—and this is something, maybe, to point to in the hopes of having that kind of city of culture and things—that Games Talent Wales is a grass-roots games talent development programme that Creative Wales supports in partnership with Glyndwr university, which supported eight companies in 2023. So, I'd be more than happy to send you a copy of that, just to point to a lot of innovation and businesses that are setting up in this sector and receiving support from Welsh Government as well. But if it hasn't been identified as a key sector in that area, it doesn't mean that there isn't stuff happening, and let's have a follow-up conversation because I'm absolutely committed to ensuring that that is happening in north Wales too.

Minister, thank you for your statement today. I think I will declare an interest as a former freelancer, but I'm appreciative of the emphasis today that you've placed on the freelance workforce participation. And I would also welcome any exploration with the UK Government, in terms of any type of system that will benefit creatives, alongside the interesting work in Northern Ireland around the basic income.

So, the three-year 'Creative Skills Action Plan 2022-2025' seeks to address the skills needs of Creative Wales’s three priority sectors—music, screen and games, animation and immersive technologies—and that is to be welcomed. While the funding, via a creative skills fund of £3 million in two rounds of awards from the Welsh Government, is very much welcomed, the creative landscape, however, continues to be heavily undermined by austerity and cuts to the Welsh budget and the public spending that emanates from the financial decision making of the UK Tory Government.

Equally of note, though, is the critical determination and decision making, strategically made by Wales's own arts council model, which itself plays a pivotal role in the shape and direction of travel of Welsh skills and Welsh culture. While these new funding steps are very welcome, I think that we also need to be vigilant and not further any actions that cause erosion of established cultural sectors in Wales—for example, the current decimation of opera and theatre, and the amazing breadth of sector skills, and the amount of jobs from these the largest arts employers of Wales.

The Royal Welsh College of Music and Drama is also consulting to end its junior department by July this term, pointing to significant financial challenges. Young Royal Welsh College of Music and Drama, the junior conservatoire of Wales, offers a full range of Saturday curricula for skills learning, for those aged four to 18. It's on a par with the Royal College of Music, Guildhall, the Royal Academy of Music and the Royal Northern College of Music. These are what we have now.   

You need to ask your question now, please.

Yes, I'll come to my question then. In regard to the re-evaluation of the creative skills plan, bearing in mind also the skills development of the outreach of Welsh National Opera, is there any consideration in the third year of how that will be undertaken, going forward? Because we manifestly face a serious undermining of skills and opportunities in vital established cultural sectors, such as those that I have mentioned at our conservatoire and at the Welsh National Opera. Diolch.

Thank you very much, Rhianon Passmore, for those questions. As I have said, I know that this is an area that you are very, very passionate about. It doesn't quite fall under my portfolio, as I'm sure you understand, but I did just want to say that I really admire your passion for this, and I understand that this is a really, really difficult time for our music venues, but also educators in Wales.

We heard, earlier on today, that the First Minister used to play the trumpet and the violin. I used to play the clarinet, like Mark Drakeford, in the Pontypridd community orchestra. It was always a huge honour to be able to go up and play in those bigger venues. It was really, really special. And to have those people coming through—that pipeline—is absolutely crucial. So, I totally take on board what you are saying.

In terms of music and apprenticeships, though, it is one of the three key priorities that we have in Creative Wales. The people I mentioned on the skills advisory panel have a wealth of expertise in this area, and they will point out that we have got a lot of people who are mixers, for example, and producers, who are going to be retiring shortly. So, this is an area that we really need to boost.

I mentioned earlier on to Tom Giffard about the sound check sessions that are being done with young people to inspire them. I've mentioned today the support that we are giving to the projects, bringing in House of the Dragon to film in Wales. All of these things, really, are just to really, really boost this industry and to give people that hope and stability for the future.

I just want to say as well in terms of the apprenticeships, which I haven't touched on, that at least one trainee placement on each Welsh Government-funded production must be provided to an apprentice from Criw, the shared apprenticeship scheme that now operates in both north and south Wales. Like I have said before, this is a recognised model of best practice.

It's not just about bringing people in, though. It's about upskilling as we go through. This is something that I'm constantly hearing. I really want to say thank you to the people who do engage with the Welsh Government and Creative Wales, and really share their absolute on-the-ground knowledge and expertise when it comes to all of this. We are listening, and I'm sure that many of them would share what you have said today as well. So, diolch. 

Thank you, Minister.

Item 5 is a statement by the Cabinet Secretary for Climate Change and Rural Affairs: Wales's world-class recycling. I call on the Cabinet Secretary, Huw Irranca-Davies.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. On World Environment Day on 5 June, it was announced that Wales has now climbed to second in the world for recycling. This is rightly a cause for celebration, but it's even more remarkable when you consider that we've gone from a nation that recycled less than 5 per cent of waste at the start of devolution, sending 95 per cent of our rubbish to landfill 25 years ago, to a point where we now only landfill 1.6 per cent. Recycling has become a key part of who we are as a nation.

I'm especially proud that it is also an achievement that is built on a very Welsh way of doing things. This achievement belongs to everyone. It is testament to the partnership working and the team effort right across Wales, from people embracing recycling in their homes to the local authorities who have continually improved their collections and the waste sector who reprocess the recycled material.

There are core factors that have underpinned our success. From the outset, there has been a clear long-term vision backed up by the Welsh Government's commitment and supported by consistent policy and progressive regulatory regimes. This has provided the long-term certainty and a clear pathway, supported also in turn by an investment of £1 billion since devolution in the infrastructure and the expert support and the guidance to improve services to deliver these world-class recycling rates.

Our approach has also been based on evidence, which shows that keeping materials separate minimises the contamination and delivers high-quality recycling. This in turn helps us to capture more important and valuable materials that generate income for our local authorities and for our waste sector, and they can be used by our manufacturing industries to make products from recycled materials, which maximises both the environmental outcomes and the economic benefits.

Tackling the climate and nature emergency is a crucial task for this Government, for people across Wales today and for future generations. Reducing our emissions is essential, and our high rate of recycling saves around 400,000 tonnes of carbon dioxide every year. By effectively capturing recycled material that is fed back into the economy and used instead of virgin raw materials, it crucially also reduces the extraction of materials that is also a root cause of the global biodiversity crisis. Almost half—45 per cent—of our global carbon emissions are due to the goods and products we consume, and 90 per cent of biodiversity loss is caused by resource extraction and processing. That's why the move to a circular economy, where we keep materials in circulation, is an imperative, not a choice. In line with the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015, it is also an essential part of a globally responsible Wales.

Collecting high-quality recycled material that can be used by our industry and manufacturers is also good for the economy. It helps to make our supply chains more resilient, as well as more local, and it brings the opportunity to derive greater economic benefit and to support Wales's competitiveness as the global economy decarbonises. This is why recycling's contribution to the move to a circular economy is not just a key part of action to decarbonise, but it's also essential to action on climate resilience and our overarching Welsh Government objective to create a stronger, greener economy. That's why the responsibility for the circular economy is now embedded within the economy department, reflecting the commitment in 'Net Zero Wales' to a circular economy approach across all sectors, and further cementing our approach of working across Government to drive results.

Whist it's important to celebrate our success and recognise the team effort that's gone into reaching second in the world—let me just repeat that: second in the world—going forward, there is no room for complacency. We want to be challenging for the top spot next. To build on our recycling success, we are already taking the next steps, with the new workplace recycling laws that came into force on 6 April this year. These changes apply the same approach that has been so successful in household recycling to workplaces, bringing greater consistency and ensuring that we capture even more high-quality recycling that can be used by Welsh manufacturers.

Whilst recycling is a crucial step, as set out in our circular economy strategy, we're also committed to building on the strong foundations to also move 'Beyond Recycling', as we transition to a circular economy in Wales. This is why we've been supporting the rapid growth of repair and reuse facilities in Wales, with repair cafés, benthyg libraries of things and repair and reuse hubs being rolled out across Wales. These facilities, which I've used myself, are not only helping communities and individuals to tackle the climate and nature crisis, but they also provide vital support for the cost-of-living crisis, by providing, for example, furniture, domestic appliances, sports equipment, school uniforms, or enabling people to borrow expensive household tools and equipment such as pressure washers or carpet cleaners. Ultimately we want to see reuse and repair as mainstream and as normalised as recycling is today.

Wales's achievements in recycling have been internationally recognised for some time, but we're now also gaining recognition for our broader approach to the circular economy, with Wales having been chosen as the 2024 European circular economy hotspot. This will see Wales host an international conference in Cardiff this October to share Wales's achievements and good practice examples from public bodies, from the private sector, from communities, and learn about circular economy solutions from Wales and internationally. It will be a huge opportunity to collaborate, to innovate and to further inspire more action, and we look forward to welcoming leaders and innovators from right across the world.

Owing to the agony of a penalty shootout, Dirprwy Lywydd, we have just missed out on the Euros currently being competed for this summer, and we're all very gloomy about that. But in the global league table for recycling, we are a hair's breadth from the top spot. So, going forward I'm confident that we have the ability to challenge for that No. 1 position, with a partnership approach that has underpinned our success to date, meaning we are well placed to deliver that stronger, greener, more sustainable future for Wales. Diolch yn fawr iawn, Dirprwy Lywydd.

I'd like to congratulate the people of Wales for the special efforts they have made and are making to continue recycling, and thank you, Minister, for your upbeat statement. To be ranked second in the world is a brilliant achievement. We've gone from 95 per cent of rubbish going to landfill to now only 1.6 per cent, and this is saving 400,000 tonnes of carbon dioxide a year.

But as with anything, we could always do more. The average recycling rate in Wales is 66 per cent, and it varies from 59 per cent in Torfaen to 72 per cent in Pembrokeshire and Swansea. Over the years Conwy County Borough Council, no matter who has led that council politically, have had really good returns on recycling. So, huge thanks to all the environmental team there, and of course the head of service.

Personally I think it's essential that the Welsh Government and our local authorities work closely with communities and businesses. You've mentioned the new scheme coming in in April for businesses. Having an office myself, I participate in this, and we now have to have a container for food wastage, but there's never any food wastage in my office. We have tea bags, and so they have to go into the food waste. So I have to have this container, but then that transcends to having lots of bins in our yard, and we just haven't got the space, but we do it. But then there are other businesses where we share this car park, and it's proving difficult at the moment. That's been the biggest negative feedback that I've received—the numbers of containers we've now got to have that need to be emptied. So, whether that could be thought out a little better going on.

Denbighshire council has come under criticism, I do know, from my colleague Darren Millar MS and also Gareth Davies because they've just spent millions on scrapping its popular, easy-to-use and high-performing blue wheelie bin collection, which I'm so envious of in Aberconwy, because we have trolley boxes, and in the bad weather they are just hopeless. You find them in the hedgerows, you find them on roads; they're quite dangerous, actually, because they're just not heavy enough.

They've now got rid of their high-performing blue wheelie bin co-mingled recycling collection service. In moving to the controversial Trolibocs system I wish they'd spoken to the neighbouring authority, Conwy. Thousands of household bin collections have been missed. According to the chief executive, Graham Boase, it is taking longer for refuse workers to collect waste, and refuse wagons had filled up perhaps more than they were going to, which means they have to return to the depot more frequently to unload to go back out again. This saga highlights the need for the Welsh Government to commission a study into whether asking residents to separate their recycling is more efficient than mixing recyclables and leaving it to waste professionals to separate. 

I've spoken before about putting enterprises under a legal requirement to have as many as six different bins, and it is proving difficult. So, as the new Minister, I would ask you to try and do a review or ask businesses for some feedback as to how we can do it better. Offices like mine are having to order a collection of massive 240 litre bins for very little stuff going back. I'm fortunate that we have a shared car park area, but what about those smaller businesses that don't have any space outside and have to collect it all in these separate bins? It's just untenable. 

Some owners are fearful of fines. I know, for example, of tourist caravan park owners who now have to go through all their recycling bins on a weekly basis to ensure that customers—. I've got a site in Conwy, with 65 mobile homes in that instance. People are frightened of enforcement and any additional fees. So, again, I think you've got to work hand in hand with those businesses, listen to them as to whether you've got it right. 

Trolley box and business recycling requirements are unnecessarily burdensome when they should be straightforward. I've mentioned previously to the previous Minister that in the flats where I live when I come to Cardiff, everything just goes all in one container. There is no recycling. There are thousands of flats and apartments with not much space in Cardiff, and I just wonder how you're working with the management companies to ensure that their residents actually are able to.

I know that we're both very supportive of delivering a deposit-return scheme for Wales. An update on your co-operation with the UK Government on this would be most helpful. 

Finally, you will be aware that I undertake a number of litter picks, especially on our beaches, and I do worry, as mentioned before, that fly-tipping is not getting any better. Under Welsh Labour leadership, the number of incidents has increased from 32,000 in 2014-15 to almost 40,000. We have got to crack these fly-tipping polluters, and I would say that the larger the fine, the greater the deterrent. Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd.   

Janet, first of all, thank you very much for the welcome and your recognition that this is actually driven by people power—it really is. It's been a challenge for individual households when we went through this, and there was a lot of controversy originally, but also for local authorities. Denbighshire, you mentioned, curiously, is going through that at the moment, but what they're helping us do is drive up to that 70 per cent target that we currently have. So, we will be first, hopefully, in the world. But we're working with them, and you rightly point to what neighbouring authorities have done, like Conwy. 

Every local authority starts from a different position, has slightly different approaches based on where they come from with their residents and their kerbside collection, and so on. But we have an expert group that works with all the local authorities. I've just come from a meeting with the Welsh Local Government Association literally discussing this as I came down here into the Chamber and almost missed the start of the debate, Dirprwy Lywydd. But we were actually saying that the benefit of the approach in Wales and partnership working is that we share best practice, we look at those who've come through this journey as well, including my own local authority in Bridgend, where we certainly had a fair bit of controversy as we pushed our stats up there. But we're there, and Denbighshire will get there as well, and we'll work with them and help them. 

You mentioned a couple of things in there about whether there are other ways we could do it. You flag up some where they don't do the sorting. We know that the sorting and the segregation at the point where you put it into the containers, keeping it clean, keeping it separated, is exactly what improves the quality and the usability of that recyclate that comes through. What we don't want is things that are mixed together. That's why it's a bit of a journey to do this and to explain to people why we need to do this. But I'll tell you in most of those areas of Wales where local authorities have now done it, people are saying, 'Well, this is what we do', and this is why I suspect in the workplace ones there have been some concerns expressed in this Chamber, but fewer by far than what we had with the residential approach to this. Actually, people are now saying, 'We understand why we need to do this, and it's the right thing to do.'

Just a couple of other points. Not every local authority is there yet, but look at the strides that we have taken. We're working in that partnership approach to lift every boat, as I just said to the WLGA, which I've just met. You mentioned the DRS as well very briefly. We were pleased to sign off quite recently on a four-nation statement on DRS, which the UK Government was very keen to clear with Scotland, Northern Ireland and ourselves. We're happy to do that. It mainly focuses on the issue of plastic, steel and aluminium, which is great, that's good, but, actually, Wales is further ahead in the trajectory. So, we have made clear to this UK Government, and to any future UK Government, that we stand very firm on the ground of saying, 'An all-in scheme is what we need.' Because we need glass not only to deal with the issues of litter and recycling, but because it is glass that will help us move down the decarbonisation agenda. The idea that we heat it up to 1,500 degrees, with all the carbon intensity behind that, and then recycle it into another product, when what we could be doing is—and I am old enough to remember this—actually returning the bottles, in good shape, on a modern system, at the point within that retailer, we can do it. We can do it. And we'll work with the local authorities and the supply chain to do it. And they know this, and I've met with them, but that's the next move.

So, an all-in scheme is what we would like to do in Wales, because we are ahead of the game and, do you know, there will be times, Dirprwy Lywydd, where it may be that England is ahead of the game, or Scotland is ahead of the game, and we'd like them to be able to try it and we can follow rapidly behind. This is a case in point where actually Wales is ahead of the game here, so let us get on with that—that's what we'd say to any future UK Government: 'Work with us on this; you can do it within the UK internal market structure.' It's there to manage divergence, not to stop divergence, and then they can follow us on this occasion, like we did with the plastic bag levy a couple of years afterwards. We've got track record of success on this, so that's what we'd like to do on DRS, and we'd love to have your support on that as well, Janet.

I'd like to begin by congratulating the people of Wales for the remarkable achievement in being ranked as the second-best recycling nation in the world. It's no small feat, is it, and it's testament to the hard work of our communities and our local authorities and businesses who've embraced the importance of recycling.

However, while we celebrate this achievement, it is imperative that we maintain a critical and constructive stance, to ensure we continue to improve and address the ongoing challenges in the recycling sector. And one of the primary concerns, perhaps, is the quality and sustainability of jobs in the recycling industry. While recycling rates have surged, we must ask whether the jobs created in this sector are reflective of the high standards and sustainability goals we aspire to. So, how is the Welsh Government ensuring that these positions are not only numerous, but also provide high-quality, long-term employment opportunities for our citizens? It's crucial we invest in the workforce, providing the necessary training and career development, to foster a robust and resilient recycling industry. So, could you detail the specific measures being taken to support and expand high-quality jobs within this vital sector?

In light of our impressive ranking, it's crucial also we continue to evolve and innovate our recycling practices. So, with this in mind, could the Cabinet Secretary share lessons or best practices from other leading recycling nations, particularly, of course, Austria? We are considering, or have already started to implement, to further modernise and enhance our recycling in Wales. How are we ensuring that we stay at the forefront of recycling technology and methodology, to maintain and improve our global standing? Let's go for the top spot.

Another pressing issue, of course, is the ongoing challenge of behavioural change, and you've touched somewhat on this. Although, of course, our recycling rates are commendable, ensuring consistent participation across all demographics and sectors does remain a hurdle. So, what initiatives are currently in place to embed recycling and circular economy practices into the everyday lives of our citizens? How can we enhance these initiatives to make recycling not just a habit, but a deeply ingrained aspect of our culture? So, it'd be good to hear more about any sort of innovative approaches or educational campaigns planned to further encourage and sustain behavioural change.

The new requirements for businesses regarding recycling present both opportunities and challenges, as we've heard. While these regulations are a step, of course, in the right direction for environmental sustainability, SMEs do face hurdles in adapting to these changes. So, what support mechanisms are being implemented to assist them to transition smoothly, to encourage them to become part of this and not see it as something problematic, as Janet Finch-Saunders outlined? We must have comprehensive guidance and resources to ensure our SMEs can meet these new standards, and really buy into it.

Perhaps we can't ignore either the growing problem of disposable vape waste. It really does pose a significant environmental threat, and these items are often improperly disposed of, leading to an increase in litter, of course, and potential harm to wildlife and ecosystems. So, what steps is the Welsh Government taking to tackle the scourge of disposable vape waste? Are there any plans to introduce legislation or incentives to curb the use of disposable vapes and promote more sustainable alternatives? Addressing the issue is critical in maintaining the integrity of our recycling efforts, and ensuring that cleaner, greener Wales we all want to see.

Finally, it is essential to consider the broader context of our recycling achievements within the framework of the circular economy, as you outlined, Cabinet Secretary. So, how are we monitoring our recycling practices, that they truly do contribute to that circular economy we want to see where materials are reused and repurposed, and kept in use for as long as possible? Because the transition to this circular economy isn't, of course, just about recycling more and more, but about fundamentally changing our approach to resource management. So, I'd appreciate an update on how the strategies in place, which you referenced, to embed circular economy principles across sectors in Wales, are delivering.

In conclusion, while we rightly celebrate our status as one of the world leaders in recycling, we must remain vigilant and proactive in addressing the challenges that lie ahead, so that we can ensure that Wales continues to set the standard for environmental sustainability. Diolch.

Diolch yn fawr iawn. Thank you so much for those comments and thank you for opening your remarks by congratulating the people of Wales because truly that is what has happened. It's not a transition, our seismic step from what I have publicly described before, when I was sitting on the green benches in Westminster, as something of an embarrassment of where Wales was in terms of recycling to become second in the world, and within a whisker of being first in the world. Dirprwy Lywydd, as you know, we met a delegation the other day that included the Austrian ambassador, and it was a lovely meeting and we got along very well. We discussed many, many things, but I did say to him, 'We're coming for your title', and he took it in good humour; I didn't cause a diplomatic incident there. [Laughter.]

With regard to the people of Wales, it's not just those individuals who are doing the work, but it's those people who work within local authorities, the people who work within WRAP, the people who work in community organisations, who are driving and evangelising about reuse, recycling and the circular economy—they are helping us, everybody is helping us here. And the children—. When I met with the Eco-Schools yesterday, at an initiative organised by Eluned Morgan with schools throughout Mid and West Wales—crikey, they will force us to do this because they see it, and they see it in the jobs as well, which I'll turn to in a moment.

I'm working very closely with the Cabinet Secretary for economy, Jeremy Miles, in this as well, because the ring for circular economy is held within that, understandably, but aspects like this, what we do with recycling and reuse—this is the proper cross-Government working on it. And you raise that issue quite pertinently, which falls to us across Government to make sure that we're keeping the value within Wales, so we're not just collecting the recyclate, we're actually doing the whole line of production.

Now, at this moment—interestingly, we were in Port Talbot, I think it was a week last Monday, myself, the Dirprwy Lywydd, and the First Minister, standing in front of heaps of plastic junk, the most difficult-to-recycle plastics that we have within the UK, the sort of stuff that traditionally would either have ended up in landfill or being shipped to some far-forgotten place around the world. It's not anymore. That is the biggest company, AWJ—him and his father working together, transforming a company from a traditional waste/landfill company into waste recycling. They've got the ways of actually breaking that hard plastic down into recyclate product, but they're actually at the moment having to take it over the border into Birmingham and Derbyshire and places like that for them to turn it into products, and what they said is, 'What we want to do is, now that we've got the breakthrough'—and they're doing it; they're the biggest company doing this in the whole of southern Britain—but they want to keep the value here in Wales, and they're committed to doing it, themselves and working with others, and that's where we need to get that sustainable—. When we talk about green jobs, those are the green jobs. In what was a traditional waste-to-landfill company, which is now with a very well-informed father, I have to say, who understands biochemistry like there's no tomorrow, and his son, who's enthusiastic—actually turning that into the businesses of today and tomorrow and future generations.

Just a couple of other things to mention. Behavioural change is key. I've made clear in all the aspects of the job that I've come into that we need bring people with us on this. And sometimes that does mean saying, 'We're got to work at pace and we've got to climb that mountain really fast, but we will do it together', and to keep that optimism going, that this isn't all about hard graft—this is the thing that delivers jobs as well as the environment benefit. Those green jobs are very real. So, we will keep on doing that.

But we are also, by the way, doing a lot of work on behaviour research as well, right across the teams in my portfolio, including this, and with the other Cabinet Secretary, to make sure that we can explain why we're doing this and what this will lead to in terms of less litter, Janet, more jobs, as well as doing the good for the planet as well, and occasionally giving us a pat on the back to say, 'We've done it.' And you're right in saying, 'Let's go even further. Let's go for the top spot.'

Very, very quickly, we have expert guidance and bespoke guidance for all of those, whether it's charities or small businesses of different types. I've met with Carolyn and James Evans recently because of issues around caravan parks and camping. We went through, with our officials, the guidance out there. So, we've got it, not only on a—. Fair play to officials, they've been out to meet with them, subsequently, and it went really well, I understand. But there's also online material, videos, easy-to-understand stuff of how this can be done to help people do it, because that is important.

Disposable vapes—just very, very briefly, because I'm testing your patience, Dirprwy Lywydd—we've already made clear—. I was fortunate to come into the job at a point where we could make the announcement that we want to move ahead now on banning single-use vapes. The UK election has got in the way, a little bit, but I'm really hoping it doesn't detract any future Government, knock them off course, because we've made clear that, from 1 April, we plan to ban single-use vapes, not only because of their environmental impact, but also the rapid rise that we've seen in the use of those amongst children, who are not using them as some supplement or alternative to being addicted to nicotine—it's becoming a point of entry into this. So, this aligns, by the way, with action that's being taken in England and Scotland, so we're trying to take a UK-wide approach on this, and we're very keen to see that bolted down, because it's a litter and environmental problem, and it's a health issue as well. So, we're looking forward to taking that forward.

And just to correct you, it's AWD Group— 

Sorry, ADW.

They would tell me off if I didn't correct you. [Laughter.] Jenny Rathbone.

Thank you. I'm very disappointed that Gareth Davies is not here, because he could really learn something from this, as he keeps going on about the problems suffered by the people of Denbighshire in having to do what the people of Conwy have been doing for years and years. Anyway—just to explain to him, because Cardiff has been one of the laggards in this, sadly, but it is now proceeding at pace, with two of my wards starting to do doorstep separation from July, and the whole of the rest of Cardiff will have doorstep separation by the end of this calendar year. So, why Cardiff is absolutely needing to do this, and is now in a hurry to it, is because of the loss of earnings that Cardiff is suffering from not doing it. And that is what Gareth Davies needs to take back to the good people of Denbighshire. Which local authority can afford not to do this, given the difference in the waste? I have the photographic evidence of the before and after that you get, the impact you get from—. Where there is not separation, it's all adulterated waste, which is far less valuable, whereas those that have been separated—you can see that this is clearly waste that people can do something with and make money out of.

You need to ask a question now, please.

So, I want to know, on two other challenges, what can we do to ensure that we can make money from the muck produced by cows and poultry sheds, given that the—? The wealth of Peru was founded of guano in the nineteenth century, and it was one of the more most important fertilizers at that point. How can we accelerate the separation of grey water from sewage, so that we're not having to pay for expensive extra sewage plants, when we could be reusing the grey water to clean our streets and water our flowers?

That is a great final question. Just to say that I agree with you entirely. Mention was made earlier on in one of the initial contributions that, 'Isn't it nice when you get to a place where in a local authority you can just put everything in one thing and then they separate it?'—no, no, no. No, no, no, no. The reason we've got to the point that we have, Dirprwy Lywydd, is because we're doing exactly what you said, Jenny, which is that doorstep separation, with clean, unadulterated items. It increases the value of those recyclate products, and the value chain, then, of how those are subsequently used or reused. So, actually, don't look at the ones that are still working their way up—and we'll support them to do it—look at the ones who have got to that point and what they are doing. They are separating their waste, and that adds to the value chain enormously.

And the other thing I would say on that is a point that was made earlier on, actually: one thing we need to do is we need to lead on this, as Members of the Senedd as well. We need not to say, 'Look at the scale of that mountain, we can't do it, let's go back to what we used to do.' We need to say, 'Look at the scale of that mountain and the opportunities as we climb it, in jobs as well as the environment and everything else. Let's make the most of this. Let's get up there together.' That's what we need to be doing. So, actually, the more we rubbish local authorities—. Sorry, that was not a pun intended. But the more we stand in this Chamber and criticise local authorities for not being there or because they're trying to do innovative things to hit that 70 per cent target, that actually knocks us back. What they want to see is us standing up and saying, 'Let's get there, we can do it, look at the neighbouring authorities, look at others who've been through this.' We've been through it in mine. It was painful, but we got there and now people don't question it. So, that's what you need to do.

And your interesting question at the end there. So, leadership from us, I think, is key. Money for muck from cows and hens—I think we absolutely need to deal with that as well. It's a similar situation. Rather than looking at this as a problem, to say, 'Well, actually, where have we got the universities, the research faculties'—and it is happening—'that are starting to turn their attention to say, "How do we see this as a useful and valuable by-product that could be used, as opposed to actually going into overuse within our soil or going into our rivers?"' And that's where we need to be. That has to be our approach in a circular economy, saying, 'How do we use this stuff?', not seeing it as a burden, but an opportunity.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary, for your statement here today, which really does give us plenty to celebrate. I share your ambition for Wales to become the No. 1 country in the world for recycling, and there's clearly excellent practice across our local authorities in Wales, but there's still room for local authorities to learn from each other in order to standardise and to maximise that best practice. For example, I believe that Rhondda Cynon Taf council is one of the only local authorities in Wales with the capacity to recycle mattresses. That's not just the springs; that's the fabric as well. And in addition, many of our local authorities provide disposable nappy recycling, with RCT again being recognised as a world leader in this field. But not all local authorities offer disposable nappy recycling. So, Cabinet Secretary, what more can be done to share that best practice across Wales so that more items can be recycled, helping us to aim for that coveted No. 1 spot?

Vikki, a really great question, and, as I mentioned, I've just come from a meeting with the WLGA. They are actually—. We're learning from them, as opposed to us telling them what to do, and they are, like RCT, driving innovation. And it's different in different parts of Wales. But what's great about the expert group from the WLGA is that sharing of good practice. What I picked up from the meeting with them just now is not a reluctance to move forward, a real enthusiasm to do it, even with those that are struggling to get up that last bit of the hill with the current targets. But it's because they can look at the innovations going on elsewhere.

There's also a question about how we work with the WLGA and the expert group to actually say, 'Well, you don't all have to do the collection and recycling of particular items; you can work together on this,' and that's a WLGA approach as well. I think this partnership approach in Wales stands us in very good stead. But what does stand us in even better stead is what I picked up from that meeting just now, that there are no naysayers there. There is nobody, as we did hear earlier on in this Chamber today saying, 'Oh, this is too hard, let's row back on this, let's take it easy, let's go down from No. 2 to No. 10 to No. 20 to whatever, because we don't have to do all this hard graft.' Well, if we don't do that hard graft, then we don't achieve the environmental outcomes we want, we don't decarbonise at the pace that we want to, but also we don't create those supply chain jobs as well, including those where they're innovating in RCT, and we want to see this right across Wales—north Wales, south Wales, west Wales, mid Wales—everywhere delivering those supply chain benefits.

This is partnership working at its best: Welsh Government, residents and local authorities working together. I just wanted to say that it is difficult collecting waste for local authorities. You get vehicle breakdowns, staff absences, and I actually worked a round one day; I walked 13 miles. So, I just want to say, when you have more houses, change is difficult—you know, for Denbighshire, having this change—and there are bound to be issues at first, but we've just got to give them support going through. Evidence has told us there is little to be gained by going forward with a deposit-return scheme, and I'm so glad that we're having this four-nation approach and working, with extended producer responsibility coming in first as well; I think that's really good. I know that, in England, they're so far behind that 41 per cent recycling is the average in England; Liverpool's only at 17 per cent. So, they've got a lot of catching up to do.

I just wanted to ask you a question about on-the-go waste. So, we see this in the public bins, don't we? It's really hard for local authorities to recycle because it's contaminated, so I was just wondering what you could do, really, to address this. Perhaps a take-home policy or something, or—I don't know; just what could we do about that.

Anything in particular? In what example? In what instance?

On-the-go waste. So, many people take food and drinks with them, so could we encourage them to take it back with them if they take them for a picnic, whatever, you know? What can we do about that?

That is such a good point, because that is part of the journey we're on. How do we get to the point where—? Like we've started to do with coffee cups. I carry one in the side pocket of my bag, so that I can go into a shop and say, 'Use my cup to fill up with a coffee.' We know that there are many shops, including in Aberkenfig, in bakers, where you can take containers and you can fill up with products. There are other ones in Pencoed where you can fill up with breakfast cereals, this, that and the other. But how do we apply that thinking to things like takeaway food, so it's not always prepackaged?

One thing I'm really glad to see recently is how takeaways have responded to the regulatory push that says, 'These materials are not going to be used anymore.' And we're increasingly seeing now the chip shop, the Chinese takeaway, in recyclable packaging—they've transitioned to that increasingly. If they aren't doing it, if anybody knows of anybody who isn't doing it, direct them to the Welsh Government site where they can get the advice on how to do it. They should be doing it now. There's the next challenge, things like home takeaways. There's a lot of these little parts that we need to think through cleverly, how we can make it easy for people to do that, and make it easy for the takeaways to do it themselves as well. Is there some innovation there that we can learn from other countries?

Oh, and I'm sorry, I didn't—. Linked to that, I didn't respond to the earlier point: how do we actually learn and share international best practice? Next October, when the world will come to Cardiff in the conference here, we won't only be sharing our own experience, we'll actually be inviting people who are leading in this from around the world to share with us how they've done it, and, who knows, there might be somebody who's broken the back of the takeaway issue.

And a last-minute takeaway from Rhianon Passmore. [Laughter.]

Very briefly, and, firstly, what a fantastic achievement, and we are ambitious to do even more, and I would also like to thank the people of Wales in that regard as well as the strategic policy underwriting that. My question, really, is a simple one. In terms of the amount of rubbish on the go that Carolyn Thomas has already mentioned, that fast food outlets in particular—I'm thinking those that are on the sides of motorways—permit daily, and the amount of rubbish that comes out of these establishments, what levers have we got in Wales to tackle that?

I think we've got a couple. It's a really good question, and can I just say 'thank you' to not just the people of Wales but everybody's constituents individually, and for the leadership that everybody's shown here in driving this forward? There are ways in which we can tackle that. One is through what we do on litter and fly-tipping, not just working with voluntary groups, but actually showing, demonstrating and profiling when we land mega fines on people for fly-tipping and so on. I think that's important. We don't need to do it for everybody, we're not going to have a fly-tipping policeperson on every corner of every street, but, actually, when we do do it, going big on it, and saying, 'This is what will happen.' And also the misuse of commercial tipping as well, where people decide not to be licensed and registered, but do that as well.

But there's one other fundamental part that we can do, and we think we've progressed well on this, and it's what we do with extended producer responsibility, the idea that, in a proper polluter-pays principle, we shift this right upstream, and we say to the people who are producing all the packaging around all the items that we get, 'Well, you're actually going to have to pay.' That revenue stream will then come into local authorities so that they, instead of taxpayers—. So, the ones who are producing the waste will pay for the cleaning up of it. Now, that's a very important principle. That's something we adopted when we were in the European Union; we're standing strong on that principle as well, Dirprwy Lywydd. So, Dirprwy Lywydd, in your constituency and in everybody else's, we get to the point, and it's coming in the next year, 18 months, as we put this into place—working with, I have to say, those producers of the packaging and everything else, to say to them, 'You will now have to have a revenue stream that comes into local authorities to help them clean it up'—. And maybe some of that can go towards the community groups and the litter pickers and so on as well. Do you know what that will also lead to? It will probably lead to less waste as well, because, if they have to pay for the privilege of cleaning it up, they might say, 'Well, we'll redesign some of our packaging,' so there's less packaging and waste before it even gets out there, and that would be a good thing. Diolch yn fawr iawn. Thank you for the question.

I thank the Cabinet Secretary.

Item 6 is the Government of Wales Act 2006 (Devolved Welsh Authorities) (Amendment) Order 2024. I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Education to move the motion. Lynne Neagle.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I move the motion. The Tertiary Education and Research (Wales) Act 2022 provides for the establishment of the Commission for Tertiary Education and Research—the commission—and the dissolution of the Higher Education Funding Council for Wales or HEFCW. The commission will be the regulatory body responsible for the funding, oversight and regulation of tertiary education and research in Wales. Tertiary education encompasses higher education, further education and training, apprenticeships, sixth forms and adult community learning.

The Government of Wales Act 2006 (Devolved Welsh Authorities) (Amendment) Order 2024 makes provision in respect of the status of the commission and HEFCW as devolved Welsh authorities. Section 157A of the Government of Wales Act 2006 defines a devolved Welsh authority as a public authority whose functions

'are exercisable only in relation to Wales'

and whose functions wholly or mainly

'do not relate to reserved matters.'

Any public authority that does not meet the conditions of a devolved Welsh authority is a reserved authority. 

Public authorities are also devolved Welsh authorities by virtue of being listed in Schedule 9A to the Act. Including public authorities within the list at Schedule 9A, rather than relying on the definition, provides a confirmatory role and increases transparency in relation to the identification of devolved Welsh authorities. The Order before you today will amend Schedule 9A of the Government of Wales Act to reflect the dissolution of HEFCW and the establishment of the commission by adding the commission to the list of devolved Welsh authorities and removing HEFCW.

I would like to thank the LJC committee for their consideration of the draft Order. Members will have seen my response to their report. In relation to the technical point on the inclusion of the Senedd in the headnote of the draft, officials have raised this with officials at the Wales Office, and requested that this follows recent Orders in Council and the guidance within statutory instrument practice.

The committee also requested an update on the implications of the dissolution of the UK Parliament. I provided Members with an update on 11 June 2024 in relation to this. As Members will be aware, this Order has been laid in both the Senedd and in Parliament, but cannot be made until it has been approved by both Houses of Parliament and the Senedd. It will be a matter for an incoming UK Government to table a new motion seeking the approval of this Order. I will keep Members updated on this following the general election. 

And I call on the Chair of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee, Mike Hedges.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. The LJC committee considered these draft regulations on 10 June, and our report and the Welsh Government's response are available on today's agenda. Our report contains two technical and one merits reporting points. Before I briefly summarise our technical reporting, I will just highlight the written statement the Cabinet Secretary issued last week, which relates to the single merits point in our report. 

As the Cabinet Secretary has just outlined, this draft Order cannot be made until it has been approved by both Houses of Parliament and the Senedd. Given the dissolution of the UK Parliament ahead of the next UK election, in the statement the Cabinet Secretary indicated that it will now be a matter for the incoming UK Government to table a new motion seeking the approval of both Houses of Parliament, and the Senedd's consideration will go ahead in the meantime.

Our merits point had identified this issue and we asked the Welsh Government to provide an update on the future of the draft Order. In formally responding to this point in our report, the Welsh Government drew our attention to the written statement and confirmed that Members would be kept informed of progress on the Order once the new UK Government is formed and UK parliamentary business is resumed. 

Turning to our first technical reporting point, the Order is in English only. In our report, we highlight the reasoning provided in the explanatory memorandum, which states that, as the Order in Council is UK Government legislation, the draft Order is laid before the Senedd in English only.

Our second technical reporting point notes that the italic headnote at the top of the draft Order states only that the draft is laid before the Parliament for approval by resolution of each House. The Welsh Government told us that, while the draft was prepared to be consistent with the headnote on Orders in Council previously made under section 109 of the Government of Wales Act 2006, the Welsh Government does consider that reference to the Senedd should have been included in the headnote as a matter of good practice and has asked the Wales Office to ensure that the headnotes of future draft Orders include a reference to the Senedd's role in the process. Diolch.

I call on the Cabinet Secretary to reply.

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. Can I just thank the Chair of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee for his contribution to the debate? And I ask Members to approve the Order. 

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Items 7 and 8 have been postponed until 16 July. And that brings today's proceedings to a close.