Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru

Good afternoon and welcome to this afternoon's Plenary meeting. The first item on the agenda this afternoon is questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Finance, Constitution and Cabinet Office, and the first question is from Luke Fletcher.

I have repeatedly made the case to the UK Government for fair funding for Wales through regular meetings with the Chief Secretary to the Treasury and through correspondence with the Chancellor of the Exchequer.

Thank you for the answer. 

We of course see the consequences of inadequate funding and misalignment with the needs of people in some of its harshest terms here in Wales. The case for scrapping the Barnett formula in favour of a needs-based system is overwhelming and bolstered by the fact that there is cross-party consensus around the need to seriously examine the funding landscape. Now, even though everyone here is sympathetic to the argument, it seems that the Welsh Government hasn’t been particularly influential when it comes to getting a Conservative UK Government to change the policy. Why does the Cabinet Secretary think this is the case? And with a general election on the horizon, what guarantees are there that a Labour Government would deliver on fair funding?

I’m grateful for the question and also for the recognition of the cross-party support that there is here in the Senedd in terms of the raw deal that we get in Wales when it comes to funding, and the fact that we have a shared interest in those fiscal flexibilities that would help us manage the budget in a better way.

Looking forward, I know there are some nuances in the different ways our parties see the future funding of Wales, but, certainly, from a Welsh Government perspective, we set out our vision in 'Reforming our Union', and that should be about the UK Government replacing the outdated Barnett formula with a new, principles-based approach to UK funding and fiscal networks, taking account of relative need. And that, certainly, is the way that we would see things moving forward and the way that we will certainly press the UK Government to move forward.

I think, perhaps, one of the reasons why we haven’t had the traction that we would want to have with the UK Government has just been the constant churn of people who we’re negotiating with. So, by the time that Ministers, particularly Chief Secretaries to the Treasury, are up to speed on these issues, there’s another one coming through the door. So, I think a level of stability would help us in those discussions. And, honestly, perhaps there’s a lack of interest on the part of the UK Government in terms of engaging seriously with these questions about funding as well. But we’ll continue to make those cases. I think the very mature cross-party consensus that we have here in the Senedd is important, and also those agreement areas that we have with other parts of the United Kingdom are also very useful in making those cases.

It is worth repeating sometimes that the Welsh Government does receive £1.20 for every £1 spent in England—a Union dividend. And even Keir Starmer must think that that’s a good deal, because he has no plans to change it either. But perhaps we need to talk more about the decisions that this Welsh Government makes with its money. To govern is to choose, and you’ve chosen 20 mph speed limits over education, airports over apprenticeships, and 36 more politicians over 650 more nurses. Will this Welsh Labour Government, under new leadership, choose to reflect on its own record in Government and the choices that it makes with its spending, rather than making excuses and deflecting blame onto others?

The first thing I’d just like to remind colleagues about is the fact that the funding that does come to us here in Wales does reflect that we have a generally higher level of need, and the point there being that it costs us more to deliver things here in Wales because we have a much more sparsely allocated population, for example, and a much older and sicker population here in Wales. And that funding reflects that, as it does in other parts of the United Kingdom as well. So, I think the fact that that’s been recognised in the recent discussions that the UK Government has been having with Northern Ireland is a positive thing, and it shows that the UK Government remains committed to that. But, that said, we’ve just been talking about how the Barnett formula does need to better reflect really genuine need across the United Kingdom, and that’s something we’ll continue to press for. 

In terms of the choices that this Government makes, we’ve recently passed our budget for the next financial year, and in that you see us prioritising the things that matter most to people in Wales. Now, the NHS across the border in England is seeing an increase in funding in this financial year of less than 1 per cent. Here in Wales, it’s at least 4 per cent, and I think that shows the relative priority that we put on the NHS, which we know is people in Wales’s top priority. But, alongside that, we also protected the funding that we had allocated through the spending review to local government. Local government will receive a 3.3 per cent increase in its funding in this financial year, and, again, that recognises the importance of those services that people receive on their doorstep, in their communities, across Wales. We would have liked to have gone further, but, unfortunately, the settlement that we received from the UK Government didn't allow us to, but the priorities that we chose were absolutely about funding public services.

We are proceeding with legislative proposals for the visitor levy. A regulatory impact assessment will be presented alongside draft legislation in the autumn. The impact assessment will outline the estimated costs and benefits from use of a visitor levy in Wales. Development of legislation and supporting impact assessments are ongoing.

Thank you for your answer, Cabinet Secretary, however, I have to disagree. Sadly, the visitor levy will have a dramatic impact on the sector, which is already struggling under the increasing red tape, and a sector that has already had a terrible start to the tourist season thanks to the recent storms. With Easter being a total washout, many businesses are struggling, having lost one of their most lucrative weekends in the season, and are now facing a huge hike in business rates. Many in the sector are warning of gloomy prospects, the impending visitor levy only adding to the pressures on the sector. Therefore, Cabinet Secretary, will you now abandon the plan in order to bolster the tourism industry in Wales?

Just to be clear, the visitor levy is not going to have any immediate impact on visitors who come to Wales or on the visitor sector. The earliest any local authority could decide to implement a visitor levy within their area would be 2027. So, there's absolutely no suggestion that any of these decisions will be taken immediately by those local authorities, because we do have the whole legislative process to go through. I do think it's important that we properly understand the potential impacts of a visitor levy, and that's why we've commissioned a significant amount of research in this area, and we'll be publishing more detail of that alongside the legislation, when that is published in due course. But we have had some really good research done by Bangor University, and that looks at the ways in which visitor levies are being implemented in overseas destinations and considers what potential we could read across to here in Wales to help us inform our thinking. And then, also, we've recently had a piece of work undertaken by Cardiff University, and that looks at the possible effects of a visitor levy on the economy and on the environment here in Wales, and, again, that will be something that we'll be publishing alongside the legislation in due course.

Questions now from the party spokespeople. The Conservatives spokesperson, Peter Fox. 

Diolch, Llywydd. Cabinet Secretary, can I, firstly, congratulate you on retaining your position or your portfolio within the Government? I know it's changed a bit, but I wish you well. We heard at length yesterday from the First Minister about his priorities: reduced NHS waiting lists, support for children and early years, educational excellence, better, greener jobs, and improved transport links. And, again, we heard the Welsh Government claim they haven't enough money, albeit that they've had the biggest settlement ever this year. So, Cabinet Secretary, how are you planning to fund the new focus on these priorities? What areas do you see being disinvested in to reprioritise resource to the new priority areas? Will we see future new consequentials going to the areas that they were envisaged to go to? 

I suppose the first thing to say there is to thank you for your warm comments, and I very much hope that we continue in our respective roles, because I enjoy the constructive relationship that we do have.

In terms of consequential funding that comes to Wales, it's a really fundamental principle that it is for the Welsh Government then to decide how to use that consequential funding in line with the priorities and the pressures facing the Welsh Government. And what you saw in the budget very much was a refocusing already of funding towards the top key priorities of people in Wales, and particularly so in respect of the NHS. I've referred already this afternoon to the fact that the NHS here in Wales will see an increase in its budget of more than 4 per cent. But, even so, the NHS is going to have to undertake some significant work to reduce its projected deficits and to continue to improve productivity, and so on, within the NHS. And we do have all of those pressures that they're seeing in many countries at the moment, particularly around those pay pressures. So, the NHS and public services will continue to be our priorities, and I very much look forward to moving forward with the new Cabinet Office role that the First Minister has asked me to lead on, and that will be very much about having that laser-like focus on the First Minister's and the Welsh Government's priorities in terms of ensuring delivery.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary, for that response. I didn't expect you really to divulge where you might disinvest from, but you clearly will need to. So, it follows then that the Government will have to use its resources wisely. However, to date, often we see an ill-thought-out process for finance allocation. Cabinet Secretary, focusing in for a minute on the health service, as you've already said, it's now a higher priority, and I'm sure you will have a focus on performance management for your new Cabinet Office. Can you tell us how you will demonstrate to the Senedd that moneys are achieving best value? We've seen £975 million recently go into the health service, which is welcome, but how do we know the money is being used well? Do you, Cabinet Secretary, agree with me that we need a fundamental review of our health system to make sure we get the best outcomes for the investments we put into it?

I think there are a range of things to say there, not least to say that everybody who is involved in the public sector has that responsibility to manage Welsh public money effectively, whether that's individual Ministers managing the funding within their own portfolios, officials providing advice, people working in the public sector more widely, and even insofar as people managing their own time—in that sense, they're also managing Welsh public money. So, it's really important that everybody feels that they are a true stakeholder and that it is their responsibility to manage that Welsh public money effectively. I think that how we go about some of this monitoring and evaluation is, obviously, absolutely critical in terms of understanding whether those things that we set out to achieve in the first instance have been achieved and what lessons we can learn on the way. A lot of that goes on across all kinds of different programmes across Government to ensure that we're able to do that. Again, the research that we've undertaken, the research that we commission, is really important in terms of demonstrating the value of what we do, and then learning for the future to do things potentially different in future. Things such as our national milestones are really important in terms of understanding to what extent we are making those steps along that journey in order to deliver for people in Wales. Again, that's something that is critical to the work of the Government.

Thank you again for that, Cabinet Secretary—that's reassuring. I think we in this Senedd will want to have that deeper reassurance that, for every £100 million we put into something, we're getting £100 million-worth of value and not £90 million-worth of value. That's where performance management is so fundamentally important to any organisation, and I know you agree with that. 

Yesterday, the First Minister didn't mention the wider economy, other than the green economy. One of the key planks of our Welsh economy, as we've already heard, is the tourism sector, an area that is really struggling and hasn't really been supported by your Government as it has elsewhere in the UK. With this in mind, Cabinet Secretary, what consideration has the new Government given to changing its direction when it comes to taxation policy affecting businesses? Will you increase support for the hospitality, retail and tourism sector, and perhaps withdraw from the planned damaging tourism tax that we discussed earlier?

I'm not sure I would agree with the characterisation that we are not a Government that supports the tourism sector. The Welsh Government has ploughed significant millions of pounds of funding into the tourism sector in a whole range of ways and schemes, often led through the economy department itself.

In terms of the retail, hospitality and leisure sector in particular, colleagues will know that those businesses will benefit from a 40 per cent reduction to their rate liabilities in this financial year. They weren't planning on anything, because it was always the intention that that time-limited, COVID-related fund would come to an end, but we've been able to extend that this year. But, let's remember that around 20 per cent of businesses are actually liable for their full bill; the rest will receive some degree of support. Around half of small businesses, actually, pay nothing at all in rate relief, and that's because we are ploughing around £0.3 billion into our rate relief for business in this financial year, and that is a really significant amount of money. So, I think that we do recognise the importance in that space.

I’ve already responded in relation to your colleague’s question about our plans for the tourism levy. We are continuing with that work, and I hope to say more, I expect, in the autumn term. 

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Peredur Owen Griffiths.

Diolch, Llywydd. I congratulate you on your reappointment to the finance portfolio. We may have our political differences at times, but it's heartening to see some much-needed continuity in that brief, especially given the challenging fiscal climate, not to mention the staggering churn of personnel that has taken place within the UK Government over recent years, which you referred to earlier.

The Easter recess coincided with the turn of the financial year, and as such, it’s an ideal opportunity to take stock of the position that the Welsh Government finds itself in, and to reflect on the situation that unfolded over the previous 12 months. It’s fair to say that the last financial year was characterised by an unfortunate degree of uncertainty with regard to the Welsh Government’s finances, in particular the rebudgeting exercise that took place in October, which caused a great deal of anxiety for local government, councillors and various third-party stakeholders alike. While we acknowledge the severity of the erosion of the Welsh Government’s spending power as a result of factors outside their control, this does not excuse the unhelpful lack of clarity that accompanied this unprecedented in-year shift in resources, as well as the apparent absence of robust strategic foresight to deal with funding pressures.

It’s also worth emphasising that the previous financial year marked the fifth year in succession that the Government failed to observe the cross-party protocol on the budget-making process. I sincerely hope, therefore, with the clean slate of a new financial year, that we look forward to more constructive and transparent governmental engagement with the Senedd on spending plans. On this basis, therefore, could the Cabinet Secretary confirm whether the Welsh Government received any additional funding from the UK Treasury towards the end of the previous financial year, and if so, when was it informed of the availability of such funds?

I'm grateful for those questions, and also for the kind comments at the start. Again, I look very much forward to continuing to work with you. We do have a very constructive working relationship, with the appropriate level of challenge, but also a keenness to work together where we do have areas of common interest. So, I look forward to continuing that.

In terms of uncertainty, last year was characterised by a great deal of uncertainty, but I think we have to remember that these spending plans that were introduced were introduced at a time when we weren’t seeing these levels of inflation. We couldn’t have envisaged the situation that occurred in respect of Ukraine and the impact that that had on the wider economic picture across the globe. So, there are things that occurred that we couldn’t, I don’t think, have reasonably seen coming. But we did take action as early as we could in the financial year. So, before the summer, we were getting those early figures through for the start of the financial year. We understood how enormous the challenge was going to be, and we worked right through the summer, then, to deal with that, and I was able to say more in the autumn term as to what the changes would be to our spending plans. So, we did act early, and you’ve seen other Governments in the UK having to take action as well as a result of the impacts of that record high inflation.

In terms of the budget timescale, it is a matter of regret for us that we haven’t been able to provide the details of the budget earlier on in the financial year before the budget. We’ll continue to try and improve that situation, but I’m really concerned about what this year will mean in the sense that we have a potentially late general election. What will that mean for our budget and the certainty that we can provide to local authorities and the rest of the public sector? It’s my intention to engage as closely as I can with the Finance Committee and share any intelligence that we have on that with you in terms of when we can plan for the budget. We are planning a whole range of scenarios at the moment based on when a general election might be, so that whenever things do become clear, at least we’ll be ready to move very quickly. I’m happy to share a bit more of that detail with you.

And then, in terms of end-of-year funding, we did have the supplementary estimates coming through, and as we discussed in the Finance Committee, there was a large discrepancy in those supplementary estimates, which changed by quite a large figure right at the end of the financial year. That was unfortunate as well. It did mean, though, that we received quite a significant amount of funding at the end of the year, and the truth is there are decisions that we would have taken perhaps differently, I think, had we have known that we were going to have that additional funding late on in the year. So, some of that activity that you've described, which we undertook across the summer and then announced in October, might not necessarily have had to happen had we known what the picture was going to be like at the end of the year.

Thank you for that response. 

I'm a little concerned that the Government knew—. We knew about some of the money that was concerned, but not the quantum that was being made available. A cynic might be inclined to view a little bit of hoarding some of that money back until the new First Minister was in place before making some decisions. The reason this matter is so pressing is because of the recent suspension of planned industrial action by the British Medical Association over junior doctors' pay. According to the First Minister himself, the Welsh Government's negotiation position changed materially at the end of the financial year as a result of updated calculations at the end of the financial year by the UK Treasury.

We, of course, welcome the resumption of talks with the BMA and hope that it will lead to a satisfactory resolution of a perennially undervalued junior doctor workforce, but it's very disappointing that we're having to learn about these material changes via the media, rather than being provided with the relevant details directly from Government in a timely manner. I appreciate that the new First Minister might not want to focus on certain financial matters, but I would urge the new Cabinet to pledge to be upfront with the Senedd on its resourcing capacity.

I'd be grateful, therefore, if the Cabinet Secretary could outline what proportion of the updated offer to junior doctors will be comprised of additional funds from the UK Treasury, and whether she expects any adjustments to the Government's spending plans for 2024-25 as a result of the revised offer.

Just to be very clear, there's been no material change to the Welsh Government's financial position since the supplementary estimates. I do have to object to any suggestion that we were holding back any funding so that the First Minister could have those positive discussions with the doctors' representatives. That absolutely is not something that we would dream of doing. So, I just want to reassure people on that. There's been no material change at all since the supplementary estimates, but we do have the main estimates coming shortly, so we should see whether that will provide any probably small amount of additional funding as well. I can't, obviously, go into discussion on the detail of those negotiations, but what I will say is it puts us back into a very uncomfortable place as we start the financial year, knowing the pressures that we have across the board.

The Bill seeks to improve the overall design of the council tax system to include regular revaluations, and to ensure the legal framework for discounts and reductions remains fit for purpose. A detailed impact assessment has been published alongside the Bill.

It's recognised that the review of council tax is long overdue and necessary, and many people who have written to me have recognised that, but a few constituents have written to raise concerns as well. One concern I've had raised is the unintended consequence these reforms could have on those living in properties that have increased significantly in value due to house price inflation but the people living in them are on fixed incomes such as pensions—in other words, those who are asset rich but cash poor, and could even be living in fuel poverty due to increases in energy prices over the last two years. Specifically, those issues have been raised. A constituent has also made a suggestion that council tax reform could include an upper limit on the percentage of household income that is paid in council tax, whatever band that home might be in. The constituent who has written to me would like to know whether you would consider that as part of your consideration of consultation responses, and also in any bid that you do make in the future to make council tax fairer. 

I'm grateful for the question and also for the interest that Members of the Senedd and members of the public are showing in the issue of council tax reform. It does affect every household across Wales, so it's right that every household should take an interest and share their views with us. I think one important thing to stress is that just because a property has increased in value over the last 20 years, it doesn't mean that it would necessarily see an increase in their bills. What matters is where your property is in relation to all other domestic properties in Wales and whether or not that has changed. So, that's important to recognise, as well as the fact that the aim of the exercise isn't to raise more money overall; it's to raise the same amount of money, but to do so in a way that is fairer. So, that's important to recognise.

It's always good when people come forward with different ideas of how we might look at things. Certainly, the potential way forward that has been described reminds me of the work that we did when we looked at a local income tax, to see if that's something that could replace council tax, going forward. In the end, we did discount that particular idea, because local authorities don't have access, routinely, to household income information for every household. That could be particularly difficult, then, to access. People's household incomes change all of the time, and one of the benefits of council tax, as it stands at the moment, is that it's a relatively simple tax in many ways. But property is only half of your council tax; the other half, of course, is the occupants of the property.

There are lots of mitigations that are already built in to the council tax system that do take account of people's ability to pay, such as the council tax reduction scheme, which supports more than 220,000 households across Wales, and the single-person discount, which benefits around 500,000 households in Wales. Together, these kinds of measures mean that nearly half of households in Wales don't pay the maximum council tax bill. So, it's really important, as we move forward, that those mitigations are also looked at alongside the work that we do on council tax reform, insofar as the property side is concerned, to ensure that we provide support to those people who need it most.

Minister, we in the Welsh Conservatives support the general principles of this Bill. However, current proposals will see revaluations of non-domestic rates occur more frequently than revaluations of council tax, therefore placing additional pressures on businesses. The Welsh Government have made it clear that their research indicates that the current system of council tax is outdated, so why are you putting off reforming it? It's clear that we need reform in the current system, and for councils to be forced to hold a local referendum, perhaps, when they increase the council tax beyond that cap of 5 per cent, similar to what's been practised in England, of course, since 2012-13. So, Minister, is this something that you'll be considering?

Thank you for the question. In relation to non-domestic rates and council tax, the intention is for revaluations on the non-most domestic rates side to be every three years, and then five years on the council tax side. There's no real reason why they should be on the same cycle, because they are different taxes, in that sense. I think that the three-year cycle actually responds to what businesses were telling us that they wanted. They wanted frequent revaluations to better reflect the economy locally and the value of that property, but then also to have a degree of stability as well. The three-year cycle has been welcomed by representatives of the business community for the non-domestic rates.

It's not our intention to introduce local referenda for council tax. We do think that the level of council tax should be set by local councils. It is very much a part of local democracy in the way in which people can make their views known to the council. But that said, council tax is only part of the funding that local Government receives. We would want to be in a position to give local government always the best possible settlement, and that does require, I'm afraid, further funding in relation to public services from the UK Government.

While the provision of UK-wide tax helplines is an operational matter for His Majesty's Revenue and Customs, my officials and I regularly raise, with HM Treasury and HMRC, the importance of taxpayers in Wales having support to navigate complex tax matters and enable them to pay the right tax at the right time.

Diolch. Thank you for the response. May I also welcome you to your Cabinet Secretary role? From the wholescale closing, though, of many of our high-street banks to conglomerate supermarkets prioritising machine self-service over staffing checkouts, it is a fact that the capitalist obsession with cutting the physical employment of actual human beings in the name of profit just shows no sign of ceasing. So, Cabinet Secretary, will you reassure me that the Welsh Government will continue to call on the UK Government to properly staff HMRC with human beings so that our citizens can seek advice from an actual human being also?

I'm very grateful for the question, and I was pleased to see that very rapid u-turn from HMRC in relation to the decision to close the self-assessment helpline. I thought the public outcry spoke very loudly, and I do welcome that particular u-turn. From a Welsh Government perspective, we do recognise that the provision of these helplines is solely the responsibility of HMRC, but I think that we do have a really good model here in Wales for engaging with the public on tax matters, and that's the Welsh Revenue Authority. So, the Welsh Revenue Authority, of course, is responsible for administration of our land transaction tax and our landfill disposals tax, and I think both of those perform extremely well in terms of being able to provide a robust and accessible service to members of the public. Part of, I think, its success is the determination of the WRA to support people to pay the right amount of tax the first time, rather than to spend time pursuing those people who haven't paid the right amount of tax, and I think that's a model that I know that we're keen to share with others. I do know that the WRA does have a good working relationship with HMRC and that they're able to share those areas of good practice.

There are currently record-high waiting times to speak to an HMRC adviser on the phone, which currently sits at an average of 25 minutes, with complaints submitted to HMRC also creeping upwards. Of course, HMRC is the responsibility of the UK Government, but the Welsh Government has some tax-setting powers, and Welsh taxpayers have to communicate with HMRC, so it's important that the Welsh Government makes necessary representations to Whitehall regarding how the service should operate for the people of Wales. Concerns regarding increased wait times and complaints have centred around the fact that half of civil servants working in HMRC's headquarters are still working from home, and this is reflected by the poorer productivity. Your own shadow Chancellor, Rachel Reeves, also argued last week that all HMRC staff should be back in the office to boost customer service. Also, as a matter of fairness, the vast majority of the private sector is not afforded this luxury, so could the Cabinet Secretary outline what representations the Welsh Government has made to the UK Government to aid efforts to get civil servants within HMRC back at their desks to provide a better service for taxpayers, and would the Welsh Government be prepared to set a good example by also getting civil servants back at their desks?

Well, that is an operational matter that you describe, really, for the UK Government, and we're not generally in the position of commenting on operational matters for UK Government departments. But with a view to trying to be helpful, we do have a service level agreement with HMRC on the operation of Welsh rates of income tax, and I think that that's really important. We do publish that—I publish it with a written statement every year, and it's reviewed annually to ensure that it is relevant and up to date, and then HMRC does publish an annual report on the operation of Welsh rates of income tax. There's also a requirement under the legislation for the National Audit Office to conduct an annual audit of HMRC's collection of Welsh rates of income tax as well, so I think that insofar as HMRC has responsibilities in that kind of WRIT space, we do have a good working relationship, and we're satisfied with the service that we receive. 

I have had no discussions with the Cabinet Secretary since her appointment about funding for public toilets. Local authorities' 2024-25 average funding increase is 3.3 per cent, and each will need to balance service delivery against available funding. Despite our efforts to give authorities the best settlement possible, they are having to make difficult decisions.

Thank you very much for that response.

We know that communities across Wales are being compelled to step in and assume the responsibility of operating and maintaining our public toilet facilities. Local authorities try their best to provide limited funding, but they are, as you say, severely constrained by ever-tightening budgets. The lack of public toilets and the unavailability of those being open at particular hours mean that this effects not only our own residents, but those visitors as well. I can give you an example. In Rhayader the town council took over the operation of public toilets in 2015, only to have all funding support withdrawn in the subsequent years. And with a population of just 2,000, this small community simply can't continue financing these facilities, which are available on the main roads—the A44 and the A470. So, the reality is that public toilets are essential pieces of infrastructure, which I'm sure we'd all agree, particularly for older people as well. So, I just wondered, Cabinet Secretary, if you could consider outlining what specific support there could be available, and what you could do, along with your Cabinet Secretary colleagues, to assist community groups and local councils in operating and maintaining these essential public facilities. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Thank you, and I'd absolutely like to join Jane Dodds in recognising the importance of public toilet availability, particularly for disabled people, for older people, but then also those people who are travelling through our rural areas in Wales as well. And in that context, it's important to recognise that, through our Public Health (Wales) Act 2017, we did require local authorities to undertake an exercise to produce those strategies for public toilets across Wales. Part of that aim, really, was to recognise that public finances are always constrained, sometimes more than others, but to make better use of the kind of public spaces and private spaces that we have available to us, so making sure that public buildings are open and welcoming, that people feel able to come in, engaging with local schemes, perhaps, where those businesses make their toilets available to the public, in the hope, perhaps, it will encourage those people to shop in those places and so on.

So, I think there are creative things that are happening across Wales, but I think the rurality point is really important. I know that we talk a lot about the funding formula here in the Chamber. Now that has moved over to my colleague the Minister for housing and local government, but I still take a keen interest in that, as do colleagues, and I am aware that some of the oldest data within that does relate to indicators that are related to sparsity. So, I just wanted to let colleagues know that officials are currently working with the distribution sub-group and with the ONS to undertake the necessary work to update that information for future settlements. It's really important. Around £460 million of funding in relation to the settlement is distributed on that basis of the sparsity indicator, so it is important, and we have had the recent census, so we're looking at how we can update the formula in that respect. So, that will be really important, moving forward.

Cabinet Secretary, the village of Carew in the heart of south Pembrokeshire attracts over 70,000 visitors a year, many, if not all of whom enjoy one of the finest Norman castles in the UK, Carew castle. However, the village's public toilets have just been saved from closure following a campaign by local residents and the hard-working county councillor, Councillor Vanessa Thomas, and Carew Community Council who have taken over the maintenance of the block from the local authority. The community council has funded this commitment by increasing their local tax precept from £18,000 in the last financial year to £30,000 in the current one, leading to an increased burden on residents. This is not a long-term solution, and at a time when we want to increase and welcome more visitors to our countryside and encourage exercise and well-being, can I ask what actions the Welsh Government is taking to ensure adequate funding is in place for the maintenance of public toilets? Thank you. 

Well, the Member there is almost making the case for a visitor levy, you could argue, in terms of recognising the impact that visitors have on a local area and the way in which we rely on those local residents to pay for that. We do have examples of places in the world where authorities or governments will invest in, for example, public toilets, as a way of ensuring that the places that we have to welcome tourists are comfortable for them when they arrive.

I regularly engage in bilateral meetings with the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care. We face the most severe financial situation in the devolution era, which makes our task far harder. Despite this, we have identified a way forward that we hope will lead to a resolution of the dispute.

Thank you for that. Further doctor strikes have for now been averted, as the Welsh Government has finally shown that willingness to have meaningful negotiations with doctors on their pay, and I do welcome that. But when it comes to general practitioner surgeries and primary care, more and more local surgeries are closing, and so the heightened pressures on general practice are having direct consequences for people who are finding it more difficult to see a doctor. Now, the Government has shown that willingness to get around the table with doctors in secondary care, so could you tell me whether the same willingness will be shown to address the underfunding of general practice, because I don't think our Valleys can cope with yet more surgeries closing?

I think the overall question in relation to funding of primary care might be better directed to my colleague the Cabinet Secretary for health, who is responsible for these areas. But just to remind colleagues that we have prioritised the NHS throughout our budget preparations for this financial year. The NHS will see that increase of more than 4 per cent here in Wales, compared to less than 1 per cent across the border in England. Public services have always been our priority, and they will absolutely continue to be our priority, especially in this very difficult period.

Cabinet Secretary, over Easter recess I attended a meeting with ALN Reform Wales, where we discussed the need for education and health departments to work more closely with supporting children with ALN. Stats have shown that there has been more than a 40 per cent reduction in children receiving support, despite a significant increase in inquiries for it. Whilst I recognise that this is an issue across both health and education sectors, financial support, I'm sure you can agree, is imperative and will restore faith in so many families across Wales that it is in fact a priority and is going to be for this Government, hopefully. So, Cabinet Secretary, what commitments can you reassure us with today that you are going to look into additional resources for training across various professions to support children with ALN in Wales? Thank you.

Well, again, these would be questions that would be better directed to my colleagues, because as we set out in our budget preparations, we are not holding huge amounts of funding back to be able to respond to questions from colleagues for areas where they would like to see additional funding. That's just simply not the situation that we're in at the moment. You've seen the difficult work that we've undertaken to reprioritise across Government to provide health with the additional funding, and to ensure local government was able to receive the funding that we'd anticipated for it, and that has meant really tough choices for colleagues across Government. So, I'm not in a position today to be able to talk about the additional allocation of resources, much as I would like to.

The Welsh Government office in Caernarfon is at Doc Fictoria, where we have a leased occupation until 2028. The sale of our vacant site at North Penrallt to Cyngor Gwynedd was completed on 28 March 2024. The Welsh Government remains committed to a presence in north-west Wales.

The work on the next steps of the project to convert the Penrallt building into temporary accommodation for those who are homeless is making progress, and I'm pleased to hear that the purchase has been confirmed recently on this project. I am pleased that there will be a multi-agency support hub in the building, as well as accommodation for those who do find themselves homeless. Tackling the homelessness crisis is a priority for Gwynedd Council as a result of the huge increase, and concerning increase indeed, across the area. Over the past 12 months alone, 885 people have presented themselves as being homeless in Gwynedd, and there are 250 households at present in emergency accommodation that is unsuitable for them. What can your Government do to sustain and maintain the momentum with the Penrallt project, and co-ordinate the efforts to achieve the plan as soon as possible?

I'm very grateful for the question. I know the next steps will be in relation to planning, so the necessary planning will be required. I know Gwynedd aims to tender and start on site as soon as possible, to reduce the numbers in temporary accommodation, and they have been awarded grant funding of £763,000 from our transitional accommodation capital programme, and that will then hopefully transform the site into 46 flats, which will provide much-needed accommodation for people living locally. And I was able to visit Caernarfon fairly recently, where I was able to talk to the leader of the council about the plans, and I know that they're very keen to work in partnership with Welsh Government, but also with the very vibrant third sector that they have in the area as well.

Again, my congratulations to you on your new post. I'll miss you here, turning around, when you're blaming the UK Government. [Laughter.]

We're proceeding with the legislative proposals for the visitor levy. The process to develop legislation and the impact assessments are ongoing. We continue to engage extensively with the tourism sector, local authorities and others as this work progresses.

Thank you. We're all aware that, in your consultation, a resounding majority of those in the tourist industry came back and said, 'No, we do not want a tourism tax or a visitor levy.' Now, we, on these benches, the Welsh Conservatives, fully support our businesses. We realise they create jobs, they're a vital part of our economy—indeed, to the tune of £5 billion. According to a survey by the Wales Tourism Alliance, 70 per cent of visitors have now said they would consider going on holiday to another country. Is that really what you feel proud of as a Minister for our economy?

In my constituency of Aberconwy, the only industry is tourism. It is the bedrock of the local economy. This tax wrongly penalises those communities that are reliant on visitor footfall—and that's not day visitors, it's people using all those numerous beds that we have in Aberconwy. Why are you, as the Welsh Government, so keen to impose yet another tax on an industry that is still struggling to recover from COVID, feels let down by the fact that you've cut the business rates tax relief, and you just don't get it, as a Government, that, by supporting our private businesses, they employ more people, there's a bigger tax take and, ultimately, that ends up with us having better public services? Diolch.

Well, of course, the decision whether or not to introduce a tourism levy will be taken by the local authority and they will be best placed to know what's best for their local area. But the purpose of a tourism levy would be to enable and support that local authority to support a vibrant local visitor economy, which I know is what we all want see across all parties here in the Chamber.

We have undertaken significant research—I was referencing a couple of those pieces of research to one of your colleagues earlier on this afternoon—but, in addition to that, we've undertaken some consumer research to understand what the views of Welsh residents were, but, also UK domestic holiday customers, on a potential visitor levy, and explored visitors' opinions on whether they should contribute and whether their behaviour would change if a visitor levy was there. More than 2,500 respondents completed the survey, over 1,000 of whom lived in Wales, and the results reflected broad support for the principle of a visitor levy. It found respondents to the survey were more positive than negative when introduced to the concept of a visitor levy in a place where they go on holiday or in their own area. So, I think that it's something that I think both people who live locally who can see the impact of tourism on their communities and a desire to improve the tourism offer, they recognise it, but, also, people who go on holiday recognise that they're able to make a contribution to those communities.

I thank the Cabinet Secretary.

The next item will be questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Climate Change and Rural Affairs. And the first question is from Sioned Williams.

Diolch, Llywydd. And I don't have the question in front of me, sorry.

I'll find it.

And you looked so well prepared, Sioned.

I have the supplementary, but not the question. Sorry.

Thank you, Sioned, for the question.

Coal tip safety falls under the portfolio of the Cabinet Secretary—my colleague—for Housing, Local Government and Planning. Nonetheless, the Welsh Government's coal tip safety programme, including its inspection and maintenance regime and a new disused coal tips Bill, places community safety at the very heart of its objectives.

Diolch. You've no doubt heard the concerns in the press and heard my colleague Delyth Jewell also raise concerns about water collecting in the void left by the Ffos-y-Fran opencast site. So, this isn't really about coal tip safety. The Welsh Government responded, saying it was closely monitoring the situation and its priority is the safety of the local community. So, I would like to emphasise that this must not be considered as an isolated case, because Ffos-y-Fran is one example of a systemic failure of the restoration of opencast mines. Similar problems exist in East Pit in Tairgwaith and Margam in Neath Port Talbot. Water filled voids are a great and long-standing concern to local communities there. These mining voids were never planned geologically, structurally, or hydrologically surveyed to hold millions of tonnes of water. In East Pit, recent earthquakes increased residents' concerns regarding the risks of leaving 40 million cu m of water on an active earthquake fault at around 150m above the valley floor with no constructed dam to retain water. Residents want to see surveys and reports from qualified indemnified engineers and measures taken to address the risks. So, how will the Welsh Government intervene to ensure action is taken to safeguard communities who've been left to deal with the serious environmental aftermath of opencast mining, and how, specifically, do you envisage upcoming Welsh legislation will aid the safety and environmental well-being of communities that contain post-industrial sites?

Thank you, Sioned, and we are very aware of the concerns of residents that have been expressed and we've seen a lot of that in the public domain as well, and in fact, we've had correspondence as well, and we've seen Delyth raise it and I've seen the Member for Merthyr, my colleague Dawn Bowden, has actually written to my predecessor in this role or to the current Cabinet Member on this regard as well. And it's not a new issue; it's not an isolated issue. In fact, looking across the Chamber here at colleagues who represent my region, we have ones within our area that are a legacy that go back to the John Major time within Government. But each one is different; each one is very separate.

In respect of Ffos-y-Fran, we are indeed—. Welsh Government is very closely monitoring the situation and keeping very closely in contact not only with the local authority, but also with agencies on the ground there, because our priority remains—in Ffos-y-Fran as elsewhere—always the safety of the local community. So, we're in regular contact with the local authority, a range of public sector partners. We've been very clear—very clear—that the safeguarding and the restoration of that site remains our objective, alongside our wish to see the full restoration of the site in line with the planning permission.

Now, just for an update for you as well, the leader of the council has provided assurances to Ministers that the water level in the void is not an immediate concern, but, as I say, we have seen this in other instances in different parts of Wales as well, and we can confirm that Welsh Government is providing support to the council to ensure that they're able to access independent assessments on potential flooding concerns and on environmental impacts as well. But we will keep in touch, and I'm more than happy to discuss this further with the Member or any other Members that want to see how this is progressing on the ground and how we are monitoring it, alongside the local authority and other agencies as well. So, thank you.

I thank Sioned for raising this important question. While much of the recent focus has been on the fate of the communities around Ffos-y-Fran, communities in our region have been blighted by remnants of coal mining, both deep coal mining and opencast. Despite assurance, Parc Slip at Margam and East Pit in Neath Port Talbot remain unrestored. The concerns voiced by communities in Merthyr Tydfil have been voiced by communities in Bridgend and Neath Port Talbot for years without resolution. Cabinet Secretary, how will your Government ensure our constituents are not forced to live with the blight of mining activities and  that sites like Parc Slip and East Pit are restored to nature at the earliest possible opportunity?

I thank you for that supplementary question, because, in fact, the instance that I referred to in my first response was indeed Parc Slip, which is on our doorstep. Two local authorities involved with it; two local authorities who've had to, alongside, I have to say, interest from wildlife organisations as well, if the liabilities and so on could be sorted out—. But it's been going on for years, and it falls to, then, local authorities to step in, because originally, in that instance, and we've seen it elsewhere, the remediation plans, the funding in place and so on—each one is different, but they weren't put in place. That indeed is the one that stems back to the time, curiously, of the John Major Government. So, we're still having to wrestle with these.

But what we are doing in terms of the legislation, bringing the legislation forward, which will help indeed, is we are planning a disused tip safety Bill as a priority for this Government. We are committed to this and a long-term, proactive regime to ensure the ongoing safety of this part of Wales's industrial legacy as well. We intend to introduce that Bill into the Senedd this autumn, and I know that Members who are raising points here and others will want to see how that Bill can contribute as well to dealing with what is a legacy in different parts of Wales, right across Wales, that we are all now living with that should, to be honest, have been sorted out originally when these plans were put into place, but we're now having to pick up the pieces. But we will work with agencies on the ground, we will work with local authorities, and try, I have to say, as well, to make sure that we don't unfairly burden the taxpayer as well on this. There is a responsibility for these original developers, if they still exist, to actually step up to the mark as well.

Thank you, Hefin. Yes. The regulations in question will increase recycling and reduce carbon emissions by keeping high-quality materials in use for as long as possible. This will reduce waste incinerated and landfilled whilst helping our economy and the resilience of supply chains, and it represents a vital step in tackling the climate and nature emergencies that we face.

Now that the changes have been introduced, charities have contacted me about some of the difficulties that the regulations entail, particularly the cost of multiple new bins and creating the space to store additional recycling waste. So, just to give you an example, I've been contacted by the Aber Valley YMCA in Abertridwr, the First Senghenydd Scout Group, who run the CRAI Scout Activity Park, and Tŷ Hafan, who have a shop in Caerphilly, and all of them have concerns that the multiple requirements that the regulations have for storage of waste are costing them money. For example, the Tŷ Hafan shop in Caerphilly recycles or reuses 90 per cent of its donations and, therefore, although they're committed and passionate about recycling, they are having to take the burden of the additional costs, and you add onto that the fact that municipal tips don't take business waste—not in Caerphilly. So, what can the Welsh Government do to provide that kind of practical help to resolve some of those issues, particularly for those most deserving cases, such as charitable organisations?

Thank you, Hefin, for that question. It's a real practical question as well, with a policy that is very well-intentioned and will deliver real results. It's how do we help those organisations, particularly not the big public sector organisations, but those charitable organisations, third sector organisations, to manage their way through this, as well, by the way, as small businesses as well. Just by illustration, by the way, even though there are some initial costs in transferring to this new system, as we saw with doorstep recycling as well, actually, the projections are that, if we stay as we're currently going, because of the increased costs of collecting waste and the increased costs of landfill and a Bill coming down the line in the UK Parliament that will probably increase that further, we're looking at savings of £124.3 million over the next 10 years in comparison with the status quo. This is before we take into account, by the way, the costs of disposal for residual waste. So, part of this scheme is to actually give that resilience to the sector, anticipating that if we stay as we are it is going to get more expensive.

But you asked specifically about how we can help. Well, we have created—. By the way, first of all, I should say, if you want to get in touch with me, I'm more than happy to direct those individual organisations. But we've created a range of helpful practical resources to help those workplaces, including a detailed code of practice, sector-specific guidance. There are webinars with information online—really helpful, I've looked at them; they're very clear to understand—but also case-study videos, including of the type of organisations you refer to. So, for example, there's one of the case studies on a third sector charity, the Hospice of the Valleys charity shop up in Blaenau Gwent, indeed, showing how they've dealt with it without major upheaval, but just making the change very easily with support, with guidance. So, these resources can help workplaces identify what's good practice, how to do it very practically, in material separation and bin location as well, those practical things, and also how to train and upskill staff—I'm going through this in my own workplace at the moment—and optimising and rationalising systems to reduce waste and to minimise cost. But, as I say, we've got lots of organisations showing best practice. It's very easily accessible, but if you'd like to write to me, I'm more than happy to direct them individually, then, to where they can find that information. Diolch.

Cabinet Secretary, I've not met a business across my constituency that doesn't want to recycle more. However, the businesses that I have spoken to have said, regarding the Welsh Government's engagement with business, 'Yes, they tried, but it didn't reach everybody.' So, there are businesses out there who are not aware of actually what they have to do. There are also hospitality businesses out there as well, like the pubs, who are very concerned that they'll have multiple bins out the back of their properties and they're going to have contaminated waste because people chuck whatever they want to in bins in public areas, and their businesses will be the ones being fined by Natural Resources Wales for having contaminated waste. The businesses that I've spoken to would like a bit more time so they can adapt to these changes, and also recycling companies, so they can actually provide bins with locks on them, so people cannot just chuck any sort of waste in those bins. So, I ask you, Cabinet Secretary: can we have a bit more of a relaxed view as to enforcement around this for 12 months, so we can give those recycling businesses time to provide the bins that those businesses need, and also to give the businesses who are implementing these changes the opportunity to get the bins that they want so they don't foul fall—fall foul—of any of the rules that you put in place? I'm getting tongue-tied this afternoon, Cabinet Secretary. [Laughter.]

James, thank you for that helpful supplementary question. And, Llywydd, just to point out to people, the reason I can't turn around that well is that, fit and healthy as I am, I can't turn my neck—[Interruption.] [Laughter.] But, just to explain, in case you think I'm ignoring you, or you think I'm turning my back on you, I'm permanently like this. 

If you turn your back as well, Minister, then the cameras won't see you and the microphone won't pick you up. So, stay looking straight on is my professional advice. [Laughter.]

It's a fact of my life. I can't play cricket either now as well because I can't look down the crease as I can't turn my head.

But, anyway, it's a really helpful question. First of all, it's been 10 years in the making—10 years—and we've already actually put in place a six-month delay in order to refine it in response to previously being asked. I mentioned in response to Hefin David's question the vast range of information that's out there, and, genuinely, James, direct people towards those sources because they will be really helpful. What is really interesting is that, in the surveys that we've done recently, more than three-quarters of the public surveyed, but also, SMEs surveyed, were really in support of this; they want to make it happen. So, we're trying to make it easy for them by actually saying, 'Here's where you can get the advice and so on.' But we have done the delays already.

One other thing to mention in response to that, in terms of the proportionate approach towards the regulation and the enforcement, NRW has already advised that, in line with their regulatory principles, they'll take a risk-based approach to regulation—a fair and proportionate approach. They intend to actually help, advise, guide, educate, if you like, first of all. It was the same as when it came in with the doorstep recycling in houses. Remember the fuss over that, and everybody saying, 'How on earth do we do this?' Now we're just used to it; we do it. So, that advice and support, and a fair and proportionate approach to enforcement will be taken, with an initial emphasis on providing support and guidance to help bring those businesses and workplaces into compliance. But there's practical advice out there, James, and, again, I'd make that offer: if you want to have a chat with me so that we can identify certain businesses who are struggling, I'm more than happy, then, to help guide them to where they can get that support.

Questions now from party spokespeople. The Welsh Conservative spokesperson, Samuel Kurtz. 

Diolch, Llywydd, and I warmly welcome the new Cabinet Secretary to his position and wish him well. And I'm grateful, too, for the time that he gave me yesterday to discuss a range of issues. I'm pleased to see as well that the Cabinet Secretary has already been out on farms, some of which were in my own constituency, sadly without me being notified as is standard protocol, alas. But only a few short weeks ago, the largest protest of its kind took place on the steps of the Senedd, as Welsh farmers stood in unity against the Welsh Government's proposals on the sustainable farming scheme, bovine TB eradication and nitrate vulnerable zone regulations. Now, I don't envy the new Cabinet Secretary and the broken relationship between the Welsh Government and rural Wales that he has inherited with this portfolio. Your predecessor met with the organisers of the Welshpool and Carmarthen mart meetings, and can I urge you, please, to do the same? But on the sustainable farming scheme specifically, can the Cabinet Secretary outline what changes he intends to make to incentivise farmers to sign up to the scheme, having been told in no uncertain terms by the farming unions that tinkering won't be sufficient?

Thank you, Sam, and thanks for the welcome to the office. Listen, genuinely, my apologies for not giving you notice last week. There were circumstances around it, which I'm happy to discuss, but we'll make sure it doesn't happen again, and, even with unusual circumstances around it, we will inform you and other Members here as well. So, my apologies. 

Look, Sam, I'm not yet deliberately—and I say this quite genuinely—or we're not yet in a position to actually make specific policy decisions and announce the next steps on where we go with the sustainability of farming. By the way, when I say sustainability of farming, I mean that in its broadest terms. It is to do with, as I've said in interviews this week, the sustainability and the vitality of the farm businesses, as well as the sustainability in terms of the climate change and the nature emergencies we face. It's food production and all of that alongside the other imperatives we have to do. That means, on the back of the thousands of responses that we've already had, on the back of the dialogue we've had over seven years, it's time to pause and reflect and then to engage, but not to delay for too long, because the worst thing we can do for farmers, as well as everybody else, is to say, 'Let's inject more uncertainty, more delay'. We need to crack on.

One of the welcome things that we did within the first couple of days coming into office, my colleague the First Minister and I—. I think the first, in fact, formal meeting that the First Minister had in Cathays Park was with the heads of the farming unions. It was a productive meeting, but we stressed to them we are genuinely listening. We are looking at what the responses to those consultations are before we move. When we do move, we will do it together. That is key, and that comes to the heart of the question that you've put. We do not do this without having a wide sign-up right across Wales, right across society, right across all the groups that were interested in this, but especially with the farming community. Because whether it is upland or lowland farms, whether it is intensive or extensive, whatever types of diversified farming, we need them coming with us on this journey because they will deliver that multiplicity of benefits for us. Now, I am confident, quietly, that we can do that, but we need to rebuild that goodwill, trust, faith, collaboration—the Welsh way of doing things—on all sides, which is 'we do this together'. And then, Sam, we can provide the best example of leadership in this in Wales and we can do this. But, yes, pause, reflect, look at the evidence, look at the responses to the consultation, of which there have been many, many thousands, which is going to take us a little bit of time, and then we'll set out how we proceed.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. I'm pleased to hear you mention the need and the recognition of having to rebuild that relationship, and, again, the stressing of sustainability having a wider definition than that just of climate and nature. 

Now, moving on to bovine TB, the long-awaited membership of the technical advisory group was announced earlier this week, having first been announced back in July 2022—a full 21 months later, but better late than ever. But it doesn't exactly paint a picture of a Government who are committed to TB eradication. But concerns have been raised that there is no farmer voice on this group, no voice of someone who has been through the horrors of bovine TB on their farm. A missed opportunity, I would say, not to have that specific experience alongside the experience of academia and the veterinarian profession as well, because behind every TB breakdown is a farmer and a family. The human impact and cost can't be ignored.

Now, you mentioned earlier the interviews that you've done, and on Radio 4's Farming Today programme yesterday you boldly claimed that England, where they are at a 15-year low in bovine TB incidence, could learn something from here in Wales, and now this has caused further frustration in the sector, who look across the border and see a genuine and positive reduction in bovine TB. Now, will you follow the science, follow this lead, and deliver the targeted removal of infected wildlife so the industry doesn't continue to attempt to eradicate bovine TB with one hand tied behind its back?

Sam, I think there are two or three key areas within agriculture and farming that are going to be with us for the foreseeable future and that we have to resolve. The future of sustainable farming is one, bovine TB is another. What we do on river water quality is the other big one, if you like, of that triumvirate. We have to do them together. But on the membership of the advisory group, which I attended today, by the way—and thank you for taking the time to meet with me yesterday as well and go through some of these issues—let us say there's probably been some misunderstanding of what that group does and what it's relation is to the board. The board is a much wider stakeholder group including farmer representation on it as ex-officio members. So, we have the farming unions on that board. That's the board that actually sets the steer and so on. But, the advisory group that I met with this morning, when we went around the table and we looked at that—and I'd looked previously at the curricula vitae of these people; these are people not only with direct experience, on-farm experience, by the way, with one of them going back to my early boyhood on the Gower, where he lived and breathed and worked on farms as the on-farm vet, and others around that table as well bringing that same depth of experience—these are not people isolated from rural Wales and the farming community. They bring a wide breadth of very, very expert advice that can then feed upwards to the programme board. I've seen a couple of the headlines on this. I'm happy to meet with whoever's saying this is a waste of time. It isn't. This actually now underpins what we can do in looking at the evidence, looking at the science and going forward.

You mentioned, though, why I referred in the interviews I've done to some of the lessons in Wales. I was out last week on a series of farm visits, and one of them was with somebody you know very well, with Roger and the Pembrokeshire pathways, which I know you've previously had involvement directly with. Some of that is showing us the way forward in some of the things we've done. Over a decade ago, when I was the DEFRA Minister, we saw the evidence, the data, which Lesley will know as well, data showing not only how you could drill down to individual farms or down to herds within a farm, but actually to individual cattle and identify early on. But then, the different thing about the Pembrokeshire pathway project is it brings together, with a degree of autonomy to the farmer, the on-site vet as well as the veterinary service from Wales, alongside the advice from the TB centre of excellence in Aberystwyth, et cetera, et cetera. It's a proper partnership. It's no longer saying to the farmer, 'You are at the whim of somebody coming onto your farm and doing to you whatever they do to you'. It's proper autonomy, and there was real enthusiasm about it.

The other thing is the number of new incidents across Wales has decreased from 754 in 2018 to 630 for the 12 months to December 2023. It's a 16.4 per cent decrease. Over the same period, there's been a decrease of 8.4 per cent in the number of animals slaughtered as well. We're doing good things in parts of Wales. The question is, to come back to the initial part of it, where does that advisory group now suggest that we need to go afterwards?

By the way, Llywydd, one of the things of interest to Members of the Senedd from this morning is that the advisory group is actually looking first at on-farm slaughter, which has been a very emotive issue. You are right—the emotional impact of this on farmers, who are very often hardy individuals, the emotional impact is telling. One of those aspects is on-farm slaughter, and that's why they are looking at that as their first item of business.

I'm grateful for that, Cabinet Secretary. Yes, the advisory group does have that experience in terms of practical delivery, but I don't think it should be understated how important it is to understand the farmer's voice in the delivery of TB eradication on farms. Yes, it's a technical advisory group, but it is those farmers themselves who deliver much of this on their farms. So, I think that's where there's a specific point in terms of the farm voice being lost on the technical advisory group.

Yes, you mentioned three topics, and I'll move on to the third, being water quality. It'll be no shock to this Chamber that the recent wet weather has caused real issues for farmers across Wales. Crops haven't been sown, silage is running short and livestock has been turned out onto fields that are already saturated. I'm pleased that, following my letter to you asking what support is available to those farmers most severely affected, you have convened a wet weather summit tomorrow. But, what this also goes to show is the unpredictability of the weather here in Wales and why the NVZ's farming-by-calendar approach is an absolute nonsense, I'm afraid. Do you recognise this and will you scrap this outdated policy, which could make water pollution incidence worse? And will you work with the sector and the exciting technology that's developing to bring forward genuine change that improves the quality of our waterways while giving our farmers hope that there is a future for this industry in Wales, because, Cabinet Secretary, what farmers need at the moment, on all three of these topics, is hope?

Thank you, Sam. We've done the big three issues, and I think we'll be coming back to them. But, just to say, my thanks to my predecessor in this role, Lesley Griffiths, because one of the things that she made clear is that not only have we adjusted currently the nitrate regulations—and we will look to see how those are working or whether there's improvement that needs to be made—we cannot walk away from the fact that so many of our rivers, affected by different types of pollution, but many of them by diffuse agricultural pollution, are under ecological status, and nobody wants that. The public doesn't want it, the farmers don't want it, and so on. So, we will look at how we take that forward. But also, we have the first four-year review of the Water Resources (Control of Agricultural Pollution) (Wales) Regulations 2021 imminently; the team have begun having discussions with stakeholders, including the Wales land management forum sub-group on agricultural pollution, bringing together a wide range of groups on this. So, we do need to look at it, and I'm not going to pre-empt it. Standing here as a Minister, what I am not is the font of all knowledge. That's why we establish these groups to actually go away and tell us what is now the way forward. But on river quality, again, it is working with the farmers and with other stakeholders on a catchment basis to find out how we actually turn those rivers that we have—all of them—back to pristine status. Again, we have to do it together. Diolch yn fawr.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Llyr Gruffydd.

Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. Can I congratulate the Cabinet Secretary, as well, on his appointment? I know from his previous capacity as a member of the Climate Change, Environment and Infrastructure Committee that he'll undertake his work diligently, conscientiously and, we're all hoping, effectively. And before he gets ahead of himself, those words describe my intentions in terms of scrutinising him, as well. [Laughter.] But I certainly look forward to working with you where that's possible, but also to shadowing you, of course, in your rural affairs brief.

As we know, he takes up the role at a time when the relationship between the Government and our rural communities is at an all-time low: failure to tackle bovine TB, of course; the continued consternation around the water quality regulations; the highly charged and problematic, for many, proposals in the sustainable farming scheme. There's a lot in your in-tray and a lot of work to be done to rebuild the relationship between the Government and the agriculture sector. So, can you elaborate a little bit about how you intend to build those bridges? You mentioned earlier that you will be working together with the sector on the sustainable farming scheme. Of course, that's what your predecessor said. How will your approach differ to that of your predecessors? Will it be different, or are we going to see more of the same?

When the First Minister and I met with the heads of the farming unions, and in subsequent discussions that we've had, we've stressed that we're not going to replicate what we've done already; what we want to do is set up a fairly timely process where we can seek to agree where we agree and identify the knotty issues that require some unravelling and understanding. Maybe some of those knotty issues actually require a bit more evidence base behind them, as well. Thank you for your acknowledgement that I tend to approach my work in a form of diligence and scrutiny—I do, and that's the way I'll apply it, as did my predecessor in this post, as well.

What we've proposed so far—I'll reveal a little bit of leg, okay, but I can't reveal a lot at the moment—is a framework of a scheme structure, based on the work that's been carried out to date. The initial conversation that we've had is that this is broadly acceptable, but what we want to bring forward imminently to those stakeholders, including the farming unions, but also, I have to say, to the wider range of stakeholders, is actually a structure that says, 'Here are some ideas about how we could do the process'. I will be taking a clear ministerial engagement within it, not necessarily at every meeting, but the problematic areas can be lifted up to me, so we can then seek to resolve them. Then, we will move forward.

But I think the first point—and we saw it, curiously, in the climate change sessions that we held in the minutes before I had a call saying, 'Hey, you'd better get up to Cathays Park'—is that there was good agreement over a broad area of things, but then there were those two or three knotty areas. So, we're not looking, as I've said in media interviews this week, to kick it into the long grass, start again, cause all that uncertainty for everybody; we're looking to progress where we can progress and then deal with the knotty areas. But I give the undertaking to all the Members in this Chamber, yourself included and the committee, that we will engage with everybody on this as we bring forward those proposals.

Thank you for that, because I was going to ask about where we go next in terms of process. Maybe timescales are what they are and you might want to elaborate a little bit about that. But the reality is, of course, you repeated again today that taking longer is the worst thing we can do, or that pausing of the roll-out. Well, you just listed to me quite fundamental things that need to happen now in order for you to be in a position to implement the scheme as intended next year. Surely it's impractical, because your predecessor regularly reminded—. You know, I was trying to get some sort of recognition that the clock had run its course, really, on this, and she would at least acknowledge that it was going to be highly, highly challenging. If we're looking at changes to the sustainable farming scheme, as I presume we are, given what you've said, there will be a potential redesign of elements. That will necessitate co-design of some elements, and maybe even further consultation on aspects. Maybe you can enlighten us on whether you intend to consult, depending on the extent of changes. That is going to take time, and time is something that we don't have. So, while you say that the worst thing that we can do is pause the roll-out, surely the worst thing that you can do is to rush it and get it wrong.

I do agree with that, in respect of where we have got some knotty elements. We have to take the time now to properly look at those and see how we resolve them, but also the timescale in which we resolve them as well, and how we do that together, and how we bring all farmers with us on that as well. Some of that may well be to do with things such as proving that a suggestion is the right one, or looking at alternative ideas, but we don't have to take years for that.

Some of that could be done through demonstration as well, and exploring them a bit more. I'm keen to have a look at some of the work that has already been done on alternative options as well, including by our university sector, which is heavily engaged in this. So, what I can guarantee to you is that it won't be long until we reveal much more leg, but I want to make sure that everybody is on board with that.

To come back to the theme that Sam raised as well, everybody has got to be content with the process, and where those knotty issues are, and also where we are in agreement. And I would say, genuinely, without breaking confidences, that the discussions that we have had so far with farming unions have said that the broad framework is the right framework. The high-line objectives are the right ones. Many of the options within it are the right ones. 

We have a fixed amount of funding at the moment, which is going to cause continuing discussion as well. We have the funding that we have. But if we can get agreement on that, then I hope that, within weeks, we are able to say, 'This is the course of action and the timescales that we will need to move ahead'. But not everything has to stop, Llyr. There are things that we have agreement on. So, that's why I say that we don't stop and kick everything into the long grass. Let's agree where we can agree and start showing that we have a direction of travel that we are all going in.

Diolch, Luke. A just transition to net zero is central to the work of this Government and in the delivery of our current climate plans. We will ensure that workers and the communities of Wales reap the economic and social benefits in areas such as energy, circular economy, housing and transport.

Thank you for the response.

I will take this opportunity to congratulate you on your new post. This is the first opportunity that I have had.

The need for a just transition and the decarbonisation of our economy is the defining issue of this decade, and it will be the defining issue of the next decade as well—and an issue that is going to require a lot of cross-portfolio collaboration. On the theme of collaboration, I would be interested to understand what conversations you have had with the Cabinet Secretary for Economy, Energy and Welsh Language on fostering new energy systems, with energy being one of those key pillars to decarbonisation. What do you see as the immediate challenges spanning both remits?

Thank you very much. Not only with that Cabinet Secretary but with other Cabinet Secretaries as well, we are having those discussions. Even though the portfolios have been reconfigured, climate change remains in my title because we are still driving ahead on the carbon budgets. We are are in carbon budget 2, and we are looking ahead to carbon budget 3. We know the challenges ahead of us. We will seek to deliver on them with real ambition and with real purpose.

That means that all of my Cabinet colleagues here will all be having discussions, but within their own portfolio areas, and within their own funding streams. With transport, with housing, with local government and everything, we all seek to deliver on our journey to net zero. But in doing that, our focus, Luke, is going to be on what we have always stated, from the First Minister's manifesto commitment, but also long-held: that idea of green prosperity.

We undersell this sometimes—the idea that we genuinely can create green jobs. Those green jobs will be in energy and what we do, and will be in some of those exciting opportunities. But they will also be in the stuff that we were talking about just now. They will be in things such as what we need to do with farm advisory services and Farming Connect, and green natural infrastructure and the army of people we will need to do that as well.

So, I think that, in seeking to move to a just transition, if we are serious about this, we look at every aspect of every portfolio and say, 'Where can we deliver those additional jobs and economic opportunities for every single part of Wales and in every single sector?' That's challenging, but it's exciting, and what will drive it across Government is our need to hit those carbon budget targets. We've committed to them here in Wales, and we will deliver them. We put people right at the front of it. People and communities are front and centre of everything we do.

Reaching net zero, obviously, is very important. I understand your continued commitment to that in your new role, and I think we're all grateful for that. But moving towards that requires a transport network and an infrastructure that is green and clean, and that is not only in public transport, that's private-use vehicles as well. Integral to that, obviously, as we move towards the ban of sale of petrol and diesel cars, is that infrastructure in terms of electric vehicle charging points right across the country. The Senedd's climate change committee, though, in the past, has said, and I quote, that 

'the lack of progress on EVs is unacceptable.'

I know the First Minister yesterday talked about the importance of green growth in his statement, but there's not been enough evidence of growth in this particular industry. So, how are you going to work, as the new Minister responsible for climate change, with the Minister for transport to ensure that we've got that modern network, that modern infrastructure that we need, not only for today, but for the future as well?

Thank you for the question. You are right; if we look at the biggest sectors that can provide contribution towards that net-zero pathway, it will be transport, and it will be housing and so on, but it'll also be agriculture, as we were discussing earlier on. But transport is absolutely key, and I know the Cabinet Secretary for North Wales and Transport will have been listening to the points that you've made. It does indeed involve that transition away from polluting forms of private transport, without a doubt, but it's not the entire panacea. We need to make sure that that network of charging points is there, and we are investing in that, with partners, to make sure that that happens. 

But it's also what we do with the bus fleet, it's also what we do with trying to have that modal shift of people onto public transport—buses and trains. And it's also to do with the often cinderella thing, although we've massively increased the investment; we've quadrupled investment from the Welsh Government in active travel. Some people will never take to a bike—even an electric bike and so on—but many more people are now. And if you look at the way that European cities have reinvented themselves around active travel, as well as less carbon-intensive forms of travel, it's all of these pulled together. I know my colleague the Cabinet Secretary will have heard you. I'll certainly be meeting with him, and others, to discuss their contribution towards this. But I welcome the support, genuinely. It will be private transport decarbonisation, but it'll also be those wider modal shifts along—I hate to say it—that inverted triangle of the sustainable transport hierarchy, with active travel right at the top.

Thank you, Alun. The Welsh Government is taking an integrated catchment river approach to combat river pollution. It's focusing on co-operation and collaboration with all partners. We have an ongoing strong engagement, including Government, regulators and all relevant partners and sectors in Wales, working together through the river pollution summit process. The next summit will take place in July, and I will be chairing it.

I'm grateful to the Cabinet Secretary for that answer. I'd also like to join others in congratulating him on his appointment; I know his appointment has been warmly welcomed across not just this Chamber but across Wales as well. I'd like to add my words to that.

In many ways, the Cabinet Secretary has answered my questions in his first answer. I hope that we'll be able to—[Interruption.] Not quite. I hope that we'll be able to move forward, bringing people together, because I don't believe that we're able to simply lay the blame for river pollution on any one stakeholder or group of stakeholders. What we need is collaboration and co-operation amongst riparian owners, amongst industries, amongst local authorities, Government, regulators, as well as users of our waterways, to ensure that we have the co-operative management of watercourses that ensures that all sources of pollution are tackled, and tackled fairly and equally, and that we do have the sort of fresh, clean rivers that we would all wish to see.

Thank you for that supplementary. You are right. As you know, my politics are that I'm Labour and Co-operative—I stress that repeatedly. My approach to doing this stuff is that we all do it together or we don't do it at all, whether it's with farming, whether it's to do with challenges on transport, and particularly on challenges with water quality. I've never been a great one for monikers like the phrase 'team Wales', but the Welsh way of doing things, so actually working together, so we don’t point fingers and just yell at each other, but we say the regulator has a role to play, the water companies have a role to play, the anglers’ clubs on the river have a role to play, the farmers and the landowners have a role to play, the builders have a role to play—. And Government, by the way, and agencies like NRW—all of us in there together. And all of us in there together rather than pointing fingers, and actually saying, ‘What’s your contribution? What’s yours? How do we then lift it?’

The great thing is we’ve done this before. We’ve done it with things like bathing water quality. We’ve tackled major ecological and environmental issues and really done it together. Now, on that basis I’m really looking forward, and I thank my former First Minister and previous colleagues for the work that they did with the river summits. There was curiosity whether we would continue on that journey now with the reshuffle. We are definitely continuing on that journey, because we see them as an imperative to bring people together and say, ‘What can we all do to actually deliver the water quality that we want?'

Congratulations again for your portfolio. We do have high hopes for you, and what you've said so far does sound good. Just last year, though, we saw the rivers Usk and Wye named Wales's most polluted rivers. Six of the UK’s most polluted rivers are in Wales. Clearly, things are getting worse, not better, and clearly this Welsh Government to date have failed to get a grip of this issue, and instead chosen to ignore the seriousness of the situation facing our Welsh rivers. It pains me to see my local river, the Usk river, which I used to fish in with my father, green, and with no salmon jumping in it like they used to. I wanted to know today what you are going to do differently. You’ve already spoken to my colleague Sam Kurtz about it, and Alun Davies, but I want to know what steps you’re going to take now. What urgent steps can you do? It’s great that you want to work with stakeholders, great that we share the same aim, to get our rivers back to pristine status, but what urgent steps are you going to take before we get round the table? Thank you.

Well, the Wye and the Usk and the Severn, and some of our other major rivers flowing out of the north and the west, and some of the ones that cross borders, particularly, are some of our greatest challenges, and one of the things that I’m hoping to bring to this, building on the work of my predecessors, is actually to try and strengthen some of that cross-border co-operation as well as cross catchment, because some of these catchments involve two Governments, involve two water companies et cetera. So, I think there’s a real role there, and I want to approach this in a very sensible way of saying, ‘What can we combine?’ But where I would refute what you’re saying is that we’ve done nothing, because we actually have, and we can point to the evidence of where we’ve done it. But we’ve still got so much more to do because, as you say—. Look, I’m a keen walker, canoeist and so on—I know these rivers well, and it dismays me sometimes when you look at them, but then it raises the challenge of what can we actually do to turn it round. So, we have funded, for example, the Wye nutrient management board to development a nutrient management plan for that river. The plan is going to give us a better understanding of nutrient levels in the river and meet the conservation objectives of what is an SAC—it’s a special area of conservation. We’ve made £15 million capital funding available to NRW for wider water quality improvements. We have, as we’ve mentioned already, convened—and this is the way forward—four river pollution summits, which have provided an opportunity to learn from different stakeholders on these catchments about the different work being done, and it won’t be one silver bullet, it will be many issues we have to tackle to address it.

So, what I can guarantee to you is I’ll bring the same energy my predecessors have. It’s a real passion of mine. But I will need to work with all Members in this Chamber as well to ensure that everybody steps up to the mark and is willing to contribute.

Thank you very much, Rhun. Over 99.9 per cent of claimants on Ynys Môn have received a basic payment scheme payment, worth a total of £8.3 million. This support is in addition to our Farming Connect service, which this year has registered over 1,000 people working in agriculture on Ynys Môn.

Thank you for that response. I too congratulate the Cabinet Secretary on his appointment. He will be highly aware of the importance of the agricultural industry for my constituency, and of the very real concerns that exist among farmers on Anglesey, as is the case across Wales, on the vision and plans of the Welsh Government for the sector. It's clear to me at this point, with a new Minister in charge, that we must take stock of that vision and to make fundamental changes to many of the plans in place, and for the Government to work with the sector, which is crucially important, in order to get things right. 

So, I urge the Cabinet Secretary today in his first question session to ensure that the Welsh Government does intend to make those changes that are necessary, and to do so swiftly, not only in their plans but also in their attitudes too, and to be real champions for the agricultural sector. And on the sustainable farming scheme, on the NVZs, on tree planting, on TB—there are so many elements here—how does the Cabinet Secretary intend to work with farmers on Ynys Môn and across Wales to ensure that the Government and the industry are rowing in the same direction?

We have to undertake this journey together. 

We've got to go forward together. 

So, I am travelling the length and breadth of Wales. 

I will be visiting myself, as well as my officials, speaking to farmers, listening to farmers, engaging with them, as well as the wider stakeholders out there. I know he, like me, will also have representations from wildlife and environmental organisations who want to see us proceed as well, which has come out of the climate change Committee. I know how widespread the desire is from all parts of Wales to actually get on with this and do it, but we will only do it, as I've said during previous interventions on this, if we do it together. It is the Welsh way. I'm determined that we do this. It will require goodwill on all sides and it will probably require, just for the moment, a little bit of quiet reflection on the consultation that's gone on this, and the responses that we've had, which will take a little bit of time to actually digest, to be honest, and the many conversations.

So, I think we keep that going but then we have to plot out how we are going to move forward, because it is not only the sustainable future of farming in that wide interpretation that I've outlined before—the true sustainability of farming and food production in Wales—but it's also how we face the nature and the climate emergencies as well. We have no time to waste, but we've got to do it together.

Indeed, Mike, diolch. Our priorities on animal welfare are set out in the 'Animal Welfare Plan for Wales 2021-26'. This includes a timetable for delivery against our programme for government commitments and other animal welfare priorities. Our two-year progress report, alongside a written statement, was published in January.

Thank you for that answer. With the Welsh Government's consultation on the licensing of animal establishments, activities and exhibits having recently closed, the outcome of this consultation has the potential to improve the lives of thousands of animals in Wales, including those within animal sanctuaries, rescue and rehoming centres, as well as racing greyhounds by bringing an end to greyhound racing in Wales. What is the Minister prioritising in order to improve animal welfare?

I thank you very much. It really is important that we work with everybody, including those animal sanctuaries that I know he has in his own patch, and also across mine and my colleague Sarah Murphy as well, including Hope Rescue. We are committed to maintaining the highest standards of welfare for all animals kept in Wales in all the situations, Mike, that you just ran across. But this does include the quite controversial issue of greyhound racing, and we recognise the strength of feeling here with a petition that was submitted with over 35,000 signatures. It's a clear indication of the strength of feeling in respect of greyhounds.

So, greyhound racing and its licensing is indeed part of our 'Animal Welfare Plan for Wales'. Now, I can't provide at this stage a specific date for the introduction of any legislation that follows from the consultations that we are doing, but you've seen our commitment, the commitment of the previous incumbent of this post as well, which is still held. So, we do look forward to bringing forward proposals, subject to the normal discussions between Cabinet colleagues, which I understand doesn't mean that I automatically get top dibs, but I will be pushing hard, clearly, Mike.

Finally, question 7, Julie Morgan. 

Diolch, Julie. In respect of biodiversity, we are protecting biodiversity through initiatives such as the nature networks, the marine protected areas and the national peatland action programmes, which benefit our terrestrial, freshwater and marine environments. We are also strengthening our legislative framework, including introducing statutory biodiversity targets, as set out in our recently published White Paper.

Diolch. Thank you for that answer, and I'd like to congratulate the Cabinet Secretary on his new post and wish him all the best for the future. And I'm sure he's aware of the successful 20-year-old community campaign to save Llanishen and Lisvane reservoirs and the surrounding area in Cardiff North. At the end of last year I visited Lisvane reservoir with Plantlife Cymru to see for myself the vast number of waxcap fungi species, which make the reservoirs a site of international importance and actually, ultimately, help to save them. Would the Cabinet Secretary agree that this is an absolutely prime example of the community coming together to save a much-loved and biodiversity-rich site that can now be enjoyed, and is being enjoyed, by thousands of visitors every year?

Absolutely, Julie, and it shows what people power can actually do. And just to say to you I know your track record as a supporter of the reservoir action group, to save and then restore Llanishen and Lisvane reservoirs, and the successful conclusion in 2023—what an achievement. People power really does work—grass-roots people power. And your visit with Plantlife Cymru, a great organisation, looking at the red waxcaps—I'll let you into a little secret: I have a very wet garden, it's like a tropical rainforest in itself, and we have, indeed, red waxcaps within my garden as well.

People like Plantlife, Cardiff's local nature partnership developing the local nature recovery action plan, setting out what needs to be done to restore and improve nature in Cardiff—this is the sort of support that we can do, through Welsh Government and through all of us, but also to encourage and incentivise grass-roots organisations and third sector bodies to make a real tangible difference in their local areas. But the success of the scheme of the Lisvane and Llanishen reservoirs was monumental, and it's what we now do to build on the success of that, with all this protecting and enriching and restoring biodiversity around those areas.

I thank the Cabinet Secretary. That brings that question session to an end.

Item 3 is next, the topical questions, and the first of those questions is to be answered by the Cabinet Secretary for Culture and Social Justice, and the question is to be asked by Heledd Fychan

Diolch. My officials continue to work with Amgueddfa Cymru to develop a plan to address the urgent maintenance issues at our National Museum Cardiff. I met with the chief executive yesterday, who assured me there are no plans to close the museum. However, I fully appreciate the seriousness of the situation and the significant investment needed.

Thank you very much, Cabinet Secretary, and first of all, may I congratulate you on your appointment and say how pleased I am to see culture elevated within Government, and welcome now how it's connected to social justice? I very much hope that we can work together constructively and positively to tackle the problems faced by our national institutions.

I also hope that we can all agree in this Siambr that none of us want to see National Museum Cardiff, the headquarters of our iconic national museums, have to close its doors because it is not safe for visitors, staff and our national collections. I am very pleased to hear your response, and a welcome change from some of the responses I've received from your predecessor. I hope we will now see a willingness to find solutions. And as I'm sure you can appreciate from your meeting with the national museum, they are not empty threats from the national museum. It is a very real possibility, and we must, as a Senedd, do everything in our power to stop this from happening to the home of our memory as a nation. And it isn't a problem that appeared overnight either. We need to be clear as a Senedd that there's a £90 million backlog of capital expenditure needed just to bring all of our national museums up to the standard required to care for our nation's collections for future generations.

In addressing the Senedd yesterday on delivering his priorities, the First Minister used the word 'choices' six times, and there's no getting away from the fact that one of those choices has been to cut what was already too small a budget compared to others. And if that isn't bad enough, he was also happy to defend the decision to do so.

Now, the Scottish Government, who are also at the receiving end of Tory austerity, have committed to doubling arts and culture funding. Andrew Green, the former librarian at the national library, wrote recently of the Welsh Government's 'fatal lack of understanding' and 'lack of vision' about the role of culture and the arts in how we live and how we're seen by people outside Wales. Can I therefore ask what reassurances can the Cabinet Secretary give today that such a damning critique is without foundation, and will you commit to working cross party here in the Senedd with Amgueddfa Cymru, as well as our cultural national institutions such as the National Library of Wales, to not only assess the risk to our national collections, but to put in place a plan to safeguard them and commit to adopting a new approach to culture and heritage for the remainder of this Senedd term?

Thank you very much, and thank you for your words of welcome. I too have always believed that arts are the great redeemer of life, so I'm very, very pleased to have been appointed to the culture portfolio, and I quite agree with you, that link between social justice and making sure that we expand the offer to ensure that everybody is able to access art and culture, I think is very welcome, and, certainly, when I met with my senior management team for the first time, everybody together on Monday, you could see the enthusiasm for that.

As I said, I did meet with the chief executive yesterday; I'm meeting with the chair and the chief executive tomorrow. There has clearly been a great deal of work already started before I came into portfolio to look at some specific funding over the next few years to try and help clear that backlog that you referred to. They are very old buildings, they're iconic buildings, but we know—. You only have to look at City Hall, don't you, here in Cardiff, to see the issues there, and I think it's fair to say the chief executive can see that there are similarities between the museum and City Hall. So, it's really important that I get that assurance from the chief executive and the chair about the safety of our collections. They are the people best placed to advise me on that; they're the people to tell me how best to keep safe those collections.

I think we have to recognise the budget situation, and we are where we are, we're only at the start of the financial year now, but what I have made very clear to officials is I want them to continue to work very closely with the museum, with the chair and chief exec, to make sure they bring forward a business plan. I would like to see that business plan certainly by the middle of next month to see what we can then do. I don't have a great budget, as you know, but I don't think it is just a matter for me; I think it is a cross-Government issue, but every Cabinet Secretary will tell you that, but I'm very, very clear that this is an iconic building, these collections are not ours, we just look after them as we pass through, and it's really important that we do safeguard them, and I'm very keen to work with everybody, and I welcome your commitment to that. Thank you.

Can I welcome you to your role, Cabinet Secretary? I look forward to working with you on a range of issues. I also welcome the warm words, I think, we've heard so far about the future of the national museum. Can I also thank Heledd Fychan for tabling today's question on the future of the national museum of Wales? Now, I do feel a bit sorry for Heledd because, whilst she clearly takes a keen interest in the museum, I think she's been undermined here by her own party. That's because Plaid Cymru, in co-operation with this Welsh Labour Government, have recently agreed to a cultural strategy, with their designated Member working with your predecessor to achieve it. Now, that strategy is out to consultation, but can the Cabinet Secretary confirm whether the strategy, as presently drafted by both parties, contains a specific safeguard to ensure the future of the museum?

Well, thank you. The consultation hasn't begun yet, and I've asked to have a pause so that I can look at that document. I appreciate the work that had gone into it by my predecessor and by the designated Member, but it hasn't actually gone out to consultation yet.

Can I also congratulate Lesley Griffiths on your appointment, and also the combining of culture with social justice in your portfolio? I think that's very exciting, and I'm sure the Equality and Social Justice Committee will want to take advantage of that.

I've just come from a public discussion hosted by the Mercury Theatre to inform their work on climate change and our seas, and it illustrates just how important it is to engage with the public on thorny issues like what can we all do about climate change. 

Referring to the national museum's challenges, we know that up to 60 jobs will need to go at museums Wales, from what they've said. Voluntary severance schemes are very clunky ways of approaching this, as it inevitably means losing the most employable staff, rather than focusing on reshaping the structure of the museum to meet its identified priorities. Now we have the Social Partnership and Public Procurement (Wales) Act 2023, what discussions will you have or have you had with senior managers to ensure all staff are involved in the best way to meet the museum’s priorities with a reduced budget?

Thank you. I haven't had that discussion as yet, but I mentioned in my original answer to Heledd Fychan that I am meeting with the chair and chief exec to have a much wider discussion tomorrow, and that will, obviously, be part of it. When I did speak with the chief executive yesterday here in the Senedd, I was pleased to hear there hadn't been any compulsory redundancies, because I think that is another way that, unfortunately, sometimes we do lose the skills that are required. So, I was very pleased to hear that. Obviously, I will have a wider conversation, but I think it is really important to remind any organisation that they have a duty to adhere to the social partnership Act, and it's really important that they use that partnership approach, going forward.

Cabinet Secretary, I welcome you, sincerely, to this role. Now, this is an issue that the culture committee has expressed serious concerns about. The risk that's been outlined to the national collections themselves is stark. The associated risk to our national identity and our collective memory is profound. Now, I was heartened just now to hear you say that the arts are the redeemer of life. Now, as the new Cabinet Secretary for culture, will you endeavour to find an urgent solution to this crisis, because, would you agree with me that, if a nation cannot remember where it's come from, it cannot possibly learn from its past nor indeed face its future with hope?

I absolutely agree, and I recognise that I'm going to be a custodian for a very, very short time, and it is really important that we do all we can, but I do think that my officials and the officials working at the museum—. And I have to say their relationship was very pleasing to see; there had been, clearly, a significant amount of work done. They seemed to speak as one voice, really. I thought it was really good, the work that the two groups had done. They know what's needed to keep those collections safe, and I very much look forward, and I'd be very happy to—. I plan to do an oral statement on the priorities within the portfolio to the Senedd, probably next month, and I'd very happy to update you on those further discussions I have. But it's really important that we look at what we can do to help them. Even in these extremely challenging economic times, it is really important that we do all we can.

I'm grateful to you, Presiding Officer. Like others, I welcome the Cabinet Secretary to her role. And also welcome the bringing together, if you like, of both culture and social justice. I think it's absolutely essential and important. And I think we should also make a very clear statement on all sides of the Chamber this afternoon—I'm not sure if this is a point where we want to be trying to score points, Tom. The people of Wales should never be placed in a position where they're told they have a choice between seeing a GP or a van Gogh. Having the access to our national collections, to who we are, is important about not just us a nation, but us as a family, us as individuals, us as a community. And whenever we have these debates, Cabinet Secretary, I'm reminded of the former First Minister and the argument he made in terms of access to free school meals: bread and roses. We're not simply about delivering bread, but bread and roses as well—who we are as a people, as a country, as a nation, as a community. I think that's absolutely essential.

I very much welcome the Cabinet Secretary's commitment to come in here with a statement next month. I think that's important. But I would also like to have a statement on the future of our national collections. The chair of the culture committee has spoken already in this question, and we need a statement on the future of our national collections, but also on access to those national collections, because the grotesque debate we've had over the last few days about whether we would have a national museum open to our people in our capital city simply emphasises the fact that, even when that museum is open, we don't have access to our national collections. I want my 13-year-old boy to grow up understanding his past, and, when he understands that, I hope that he will play a part—Government's terrified to hear this—in creating our future as well.

I don't disagree with anything Alun has said. I'm going to visit the museum on Tuesday. It's probably about two years since I dropped in there, and I went to see the Richard Burton exhibition as the last thing I saw at the museum. It is really important that as much of those collections are on view as possible. Of course it's a family of museums, isn't it, right across Wales; I look forward to visiting all of the seven museums within the family, to see what is there. As you say, it's really important that everybody has access, and it's good to hear the welcome for the joining up of culture and social justice, because I too think that's really important.

Good afternoon, Cabinet Secretary. I would just add to what's been said. Funding of arts and culture is a way of creating a more equal society. Many of us have had the advantages of being able to enter into museums and art galleries for free, so not only do we have the challenge right now of an iconic building potentially closing—I hope for a short period of time—but I also wonder, in your business plan that you're looking to get from your officials, whether you're also going to be able to include in that the issue around charging for museums and art galleries in Wales. I very much hope that they will remain free and open to all. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Thank you, and, certainly, Welsh Government is committed to not charging to go into our museums. As I say, I had a very brief discussion with the chief executive yesterday around that, and she assured me that was still the view as well. I absolutely agree. If we going to have that widening of participation in our iconic buildings and in our museums, it is really important that there is no charge. I think it's fair to say, and this will be part of the conversation I have at my meeting tomorrow, that they are looking at ways—certainly in the national museum here in Cardiff—they can create and generate some income, but charging to go in is not one of them.

Jane, Delyth and Alun have already talked about how the value of culture goes far beyond simple monetary terms, but at the risk of undoing some of that by talking about the value produced by the museum in monetary terms, falling into that trap of only attributing value to things that turn profit, we know from data in 2020 that, for every £1 the Welsh Government spends on the national museum, £4 is generated in additional spending, and that, by all accounts, is a conservative estimate. So, I'm just really interested to understand what work the Welsh Government has done to understand the economic impact of any potential closure of the national museum and any further job losses within the national museum itself.

Well, I'm sure my predecessor did undertake that work. I haven't had the opportunity to have a look at it. We often hear this, don't we, that a pound generates multiple pounds in return, and I think it is very important to understand that there will have to be several impact assessments, but I want to reassure everybody that the national museum is not closing.

I thank the Cabinet Secretary.

The next question is to be answered by the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care, and is to be asked by Altaf Hussain.

Diolch yn fawr. This is a tragic case, and my thoughts are with those who are affected. The health board investigated this incident at the time, and made necessary improvements. I expect immediate action by the health board following the coroner's findings, and I've asked the NHS executive to provide assurance on this.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. It is great to see you back in your job and post. Now, I was shocked to hear about the long list of failures that had such a tragic consequence. My thoughts and prayers are with the Harrison family. The failures of social services, the police, and ultimately the health board, certainly contributed to the death of Dr Harrison, and we must ensure that this can never happen again. Cabinet Secretary, will you conduct an urgent review of security measures, not just at the mental health unit within Neath Port Talbot Hospital, but across the mental health estate, both secure and non-secure? How will the lessons from the poor treatment received by Daniel Harrison be applied to the training of mental health clinicians operating in the Welsh NHS? And, finally, Cabinet Secretary, how will you ensure that all relevant patient information is utilised when mental health assessments are undertaken in police custody? Thank you.

Well, thanks very much, and I'm sure everybody will understand the extreme tragedy of this case and the real difficulties that this family has had to face. And I just want to make sure that there's an understanding that I take all regulation 28 reports extremely seriously, and I do think that there are wider lessons for us to learn, and that's certainly something that we'll be encouraging the health board to undertake. But, also, I have instructed the NHS executive to look at that wider learning.

I can give you a reassurance that a number of key actions are in process, including additional security measures being built into ward F at Neath Port Talbot Hospital, which provide extra locked areas around exit doors. And you're quite right that we need to make sure that those lessons are being learned in other health boards.

I think there is also wider learning that we need to understand, including, crucially—. And we're still waiting for the regulation 28 to be published in about seven days' time. I think the importance of needing to listen to the insights and the information that the family has in terms of delivering care, and the need to deliver care, and how to deliver care, is something that also needs to be taken on board.

Thank you, Minister.

Item 4 is the 90-second statements, and the first statement is from Alun Davies. 

I'm grateful to you, Deputy Presiding Officer. Every so often, a superstar appears. Jess Fishlock is such a superstar. April the ninth marked a milestone moment, when Jess Fishlock led her country into the qualifier against Kosovo and became the first Wales player to win 150 Welsh caps. We should all congratulate here on this achievement. It means that she will have featured in 65 per cent of all Cymru games since the Welsh team were fully endorsed by the Football Association of Wales in 1993. It's an extraordinary statistic and something that she should be very, very proud of. Just a few days earlier, Jess had broken Gareth Bales' Welsh goal scoring record, as Wales beat Croatia 4-0 at Wrexham Racecourse. 

Both achievements are testament to an exceptional player who has raised the bar and inspired all around her since making her international debut at the age of 16. There isn't a player more deserving to hold these records, because it's not just that she's a superstar at home in Wales, but globally as well. And it's not just her skills on the field that make her such an inspiration to a younger generation of players, but it's also her advice and her attitude. She's a global superstar who has never forgotten her Welsh roots. But she's done more than that. She's supported and helped the LGBTQ+ community on and off the pitch. When she was awarded her MBE, it was to women's football and to the LGBT community, and she was named the Stonewall sports champion as well in December 2020. We should all join together and congratulate Jess Fishlock on what she has achieved for Wales and for the community she represents. Thank you.

Some would say that the expression 'ahead of their time' is used far too often, but, surely, few would argue that it isn’t a worthy description of Zonia Bowen who passed away recently. Like so many of the people who make a special contribution to our nation, Zonia was born outside Wales, namely in Norfolk in 1926. She came here to study French at Bangor University, but it was with the Welsh language and Wales itself that she fell in love following her arrival. Zonia studied Breton too, and she was the first person ever to publish textbooks on learning Breton through the medium of Welsh. 

Freedom and independence were a golden thread throughout all of Zonia’s work, and, under her leadership, the Women’s Institute branch of Parc, near Bala, gained its freedom from the WI, because the organisation refused to allow the women of Parc to administer the branch through the medium of Welsh. Those women went on to establish an organisation that has become such an inextricable part of Welsh language culture, namely Merched y Wawr, and Zonia was the organisation’s first national secretary, as well as the first editor of its special magazine, Y Wawr. Zonia campaigned against the burial of nuclear waste in Wales in the 1980s under the banner of the Madryn campaign, and she was secretary of Cyngor Dyneiddwyr Cymru for a time too.

Zonia wasn’t a traditional woman, nor did she live a traditional life. She went against the grain and refused to accept that 'this is how it is, and this is how it has to be'. Thank you, Zonia.

Well, it gives me great pleasure to offer my congratulations to Wrexham football club, of course, which has secured promotion to league one of the English league this week. And what a way to secure that promotion: scoring six goals against Forest Green Rovers at the Racecourse, a ground that is, of course, now, once again, a venue for international games.

Now, Barcelona football club has a saying: mes que un club, more than a club. And that’s, of course, exactly what we have in Wrexham now: a team for the whole of north Wales, a team that packs out the Racecourse every week, with plans afoot to build a new stand to meet the demand from the thousands of new fans enchanted by the story. This is Wales’s oldest professional football club, and the third oldest in the world, playing at the oldest international ground in the world too. A club with history.

But this is a club, of course, that almost ceased to exist due to the mismanagement of certain greedy individuals. It's a club that was saved by its supporters, who were then generous enough to place the club in the care of two actors, who admitted that they knew very little about football, namely Rob McElhenny and Ryan Reynolds. And that faith has paid dividends, hasn't it? After 15 years outside the league, they secured promotion last year to league two, and this year they’ve triumphed once again. 

Wrexham football club has always been at the heart of the local community and north Wales more widely. The attention brought by the new owners and the television series means that supporters worldwide are now part of this extraordinary journey. Only a month ago, a group of supporters from Patagonia came over for the first time and received a very warm welcome by the club and the fans.

It's more than a football club. The success is very much deserved after such a difficult period. When the supporters sing 'Yma o hyd'—we’re still here—there is real passion behind the words, 'er gwaetha pawb a phopeth'—despite everyone and everything. And, hopefully, we’ll see more success in coming seasons. I’m sure that all Members of the Senedd would wish to congratulate Wrexham at the end of such a successful season and, of course, wish them all the very best for the season to come. 

Next, a motion to elect a Member to a committee, and I call on a member of the Business Committee to move the motion formally. Heledd Fychan. 

Formally. 

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36. 

Next, a motion to appoint a Member to the Senedd Commission, and I call on a member of the Business Committee to formally move the motion. Heledd Fychan. 

Formally. 

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36. 

Item 5 this afternoon is a debate on the general principles of the Residential Outdoor Education (Wales) Bill, and I call on Sam Rowlands to move the motion. 

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I'm delighted and proud to move the motion on the agenda in my name, and so, in opening the debate, we propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 26.11, agrees to the general principles of the Residential Outdoor Education (Wales) Bill.

I would like to start by thanking the team of people who have helped me to prepare this Bill and the many colleagues who have offered both challenge and support through the various committees and outside of those committees as well over recent months. In particular, I'd like to thank Senedd Commission staff, some of whom are here today, for their significant efforts, as well as my own team, in addition to those in the outdoor and education sector who've supported me, especially Graham French, Dave Harvey, Clare Adams and Paul Donovan, who provided invaluable sector and academic insight. Also, I'm grateful for the engagement of schools and children through this process. It's their passion and commitment and stakeholders across Wales that convinced me of the importance of and the need for this Bill.

When I introduced this Bill in November last year, I opened by asking a question, and the question was: will Wales lead the way? Since then, we have heard evidence from a wide range of groups and individuals, the majority of whom support the Bill. Indeed, although there are a number of important points to debate, it's been noticeable that almost every person giving evidence, were they for or against the idea of legislation, recognises the value of residential outdoor education and the inequitable access to associated benefits that lie at the heart of the Bill. 

The Bill is placed in the context of education, but I believe that it has a much wider span across different portfolios and all areas of our lives. The benefits of residential outdoor education are keenly felt at a personal level and play a key role in broadening young people's horizons and developing their sense of cynefin. But these experiences also contribute to Wales in a wider sense. Health, well-being, cultural capital and the economy are all critical agendas here in Wales and are all boosted by this Bill. Most importantly, however, by making outdoor education residentials free of charge and a guaranteed part of children's education journey, the Bill removes the postcode lottery aspect of access to those personal benefits. I think Members will all agree that no child should miss out because of their personal circumstances, which is why, following a very thorough scrutiny process, this Bill is before you today in its current iteration.

At this point, I'd like to say that I've actually enjoyed the scrutiny process and I thank each and every committee member who's questioned me and my team, and there were certainly plenty of searching questions. Whilst I won't do so again at this point, I have responded in detail to each committee recommendation, and I encourage Members to read my response if you happen to struggle to sleep. I've noted 'accepted in principle' or 'accepted' for many of the recommendations that have been made following this, which shows how productive the scrutiny process has been, and I intend to bring forward a number of amendments at Stage 2 to respond to these. But there are a few key points, though, I would like to draw Members' attention to in the meantime. 

The purpose of the Bill, as a reminder, is to enable all pupils in maintained schools to experience at least four nights of residential outdoor education free of charge, with that provision able to be split into several shorter visits if needed. There's been some debate around defining outdoor education, but given the wide range of views on this, I consider that to fix a definition on the face of the Bill would be potentially limiting on its future operation, as any amendment to the definition in order to reflect changes in practice or demand for certain elements of outdoor education would require further primary legislation. 

Taking this approach also gives schools more flexibility to determine the type of experience that is appropriate for its pupils. Along with the type of experience, the schools should also be able to choose the length of visit, appropriate to the age, ability and needs of their children. This is particularly important in the case of pupils with additional learning needs.

The Bill makes providing a course of residential outdoor education a mandatory part of the curriculum—it would therefore be mandatory for schools to provide this course of residential outdoor education—but the intention is that children should not be compelled to undertake it. Headteachers of maintained schools can already determine that provisions of the curriculum for Wales should not apply to a child or pupil. So, if a child did not wish to take part in the course of education provided under the Bill, the headteacher of the school could make that determination.

As I moved through the process and undertook consultations on the policy objectives in the draft Bill, it became clear that there were strong views that the Bill should be widened to include pupils educated other than at school. I absolutely acknowledge that children educated other than at school, such as those in pupil referral units, may particularly benefit from a residential outdoor experience provided under the Bill. I recognise that this is an area of the Bill that could be strengthened. Hearing evidence presented during the Stage 1 process has highlighted this further. So, if the Bill does progress, I commit to reviewing this issue and to work with the Welsh Government to establish the feasibility of extending the provision to pupils in education otherwise than at school and whether this would be best placed within the Bill or by other means. 

The Welsh Language Commissioner has also proposed amendments relating to the guidance that must be issued by Welsh Ministers, which I welcome. Over the course of Stage 1 of the Bill, I have given a specific commitment to the Children, Young People and Education Committee in relation to strengthening Welsh language provision. I am happy to set a requirement that residential outdoor education offers opportunities for all pupils to learn and have experiences through the medium of Welsh and that it promotes an understanding of the Welsh language and culture. It is worth noting that, however desirable Welsh medium provision is, though, the ability of the sector to fully meet this goal is currently lacking. The situation is improving, thanks to new outdoor education-related qualifications and organisations such as the Outdoor Partnership, but it's a generational change rather than an overnight fix. I am, though, confident that my Bill passing would be a boost for 'Cymraeg 2050' aspirations and the bolstering of our language across Wales, particularly given many of the outdoor education sites are located in areas where Welsh is widely spoken and celebrated.

It's no surprise that a debate around funding has been a central theme of the Bill to date. In developing the regulatory impact assessment, a significant amount of work was undertaken, including with providers of residential outdoor education, and I truly believe that the costs set out in the RIA are robust and stand up to any scrutiny. This has been reflected in the comments and recommendations of the Finance Committee, for which I'm grateful. The Bill requires Welsh Ministers to issue guidance in respect of residential outdoor education and that the guidance must make provision in respect of the costs that it would be reasonable to incur in connection with residential outdoor education. This should provide some safeguard that the cost of visits must be reasonable. However, I'll be happy to explore strengthening guidance provisions in the Bill to further promote the need to ensure value for money.

I would argue that this Bill would have a long-term net positive economic impact, not only on boosting the wider economy of Wales, particularly where those residential sites exist, but by bolstering and supporting the long-term physical and mental health of our young people, which will pay dividends for decades in the future. I believe my Bill is necessary, because while we have an education system and curriculum that aims to provide equally for all children, the reality is that not all aspects of that education are available to everyone on equal terms. Outdoor education residentials are valued by children, parents and teachers alike, yet for those without the means to access them, they are, in fact, unattainable. I believe this is fundamentally wrong, and this Bill sets out to remove those financial barriers to participating in what can be life-changing experiences.

There's an argument that legislation is not needed, and I'm aware there are provisions in the Curriculum and Assessment (Wales) Act 2021 that give the Welsh Ministers power by regulations to amend areas of learning and experience. But my Bill ensures that its benefits will be safeguarded for future generations. Fundamentally, you legislate for and you fund what you think is important, and if you want something to be guaranteed, then you put that into law. That is what I'm doing with this Bill and what I hope you will join me in doing this afternoon. I'll be voting for a vision of the future that's truly accessible for all children in Wales, one that has the potential to impact on the future well-being and also the culture and economy of Wales. I truly hope, Members, that you will do the same. I commend this motion and the Residential Outdoor Education (Wales) Bill to the Senedd. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

I call on the Chair of the Children, Young People and Education Committee, Buffy Williams.

Diolch, Dirprwy Llywydd. I'm delighted to speak today in my new role as Chair of the Children, Young People and Education Committee. Having been a member of the committee since 2021, it's an honour and a privilege to have been elected Chair. We've conducted really crucial work under the excellent leadership of our previous Chair, Jayne Bryant. On behalf of all the committee, I would like to thank Jayne for being an exemplar committee Chair. We look forward to your continued engagement with us in your new role as Minister for Mental Health and Early Years. I'd also like to add a special thank you to Ken Skates on behalf of the committee for his valued contributions and insight.

Turning to the Bill, I'd like to thank the Member in charge for his opening remarks and his open and constructive approach to our scrutiny. It's helpful to receive a written response to our recommendations ahead of the debate, so thank you for that. I'd like to thank those who contributed to our scrutiny of this Bill. Finally, I would like to thank my fellow committee members for their considered and collaborative approach to the Bill's scrutiny.

While there was unanimous agreement with the Bill's intentions and policy objectives, we could not come to a single view on general principles. Some Members had concerns about the cost of the Bill and potential issues with implementation, whereas other Members felt these concerns could be addressed by the Member in charge during the remainder of the scrutiny process and that the Bill should therefore proceed. I’m sure we will hear some of these different views during the rest of the debate. However, we did make eight recommendations. The Member in charge accepted two in full, two in part, and one in principle. He rejected two and noted one.

I will now turn to some of these in more detail. The Member in charge has been very clear that the current inequality in residential outdoor education provision was a leading factor for introducing the Bill. He described it as a social justice issue; on this we agreed. Yet the Bill as currently drafted excludes some children and young people in education, and therefore does not provide for universal provision. In particular, we heard about how children and young people in education other than at school may particularly benefit from the opportunities provided by residential outdoor education. Many of the stakeholders we spoke to felt this was a gap in the Bill. We felt strongly that this was an area for amendment if the Bill progressed and recommended amendments to include pupils in education other than at school within the scope of the Bill's provision.

The Member in charge accepted this in principle. He highlighted the basis on which he was given leave to proceed, which was to establish a statutory duty to ensure all young people receiving maintained education had a residential outdoor education opportunity. In developing the Bill, he said it was felt that the best way to deliver this was to use the Curriculum and Assessment (Wales) Act 2021. The 2021 Act places different curriculum requirements on children in education other than at school. The Member in charge recognises this is an area where the Bill could be strengthened and we are pleased to see this. We welcome this commitment to further reviewing this issue, including working with the Welsh Government to establish the feasibility of extending eligibility. If the Bill proceeds, we will keep a watchful eye on these developments.

Another critical issue explored in detail by us and the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee was the mandatory nature of the provision. The Member in charge was clear in his evidence to us that children would not be mandated to attend, and that the mandatory aspect was the offer being made by schools. However, any opt-out system would have to be done through the mechanism set out in section 42 of the 2021 Act. The then Minister for Education and the Welsh Language described this as a blunt instrument for this particular job. We agreed and therefore recommended that amendments be brought forward at Stage 2 to put on the face of the Bill that the offer of residential outdoor education was not mandatory to take up. I note that the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee made a similar recommendation calling for the Bill to be amended to include an opt-out mechanism. The Member in charge has accepted our recommendation, although he says he is not sure if an amendment is required, but is happy to explore whether such an amendment would make the intention of the Bill clearer and its effect easier to manage in practice. We welcome this open approach and if the Bill progresses we'll take a keen interest in any relevant amendments tabled for Stage 2.

I would like to briefly touch on some other recommendations we made. These included calling for the Welsh Government to commission a review of capacity within the sector with a particular focus on accessible and inclusive provision and Welsh-medium provision. These are issues that we heard about during the scrutiny of this Bill and also in relation to inclusive provision as part of our work looking at disabled access to education and childcare. This will obviously be a matter for the Welsh Government rather than the Member in charge if the Bill proceeds, but it is good to see that the Member in charge would welcome such a review and that he can see how it would support implementation of the Bill.

Finally, I highlight recommendation 6, which supported the proposed amendments suggested by the Welsh Language Commissioner. The Member in charge has accepted this recommendation in part. He said he would be happy to accept the amendments that would ensure that residential outdoor education provision should, in line with the Curriculum for Wales, provide opportunities for all pupils to learn and have experiences through the Welsh language and that provision should promote an understanding of Welsh language and culture. We welcome this. However, he does not accept the proposed amendment from the commissioner that would require all providers to be able to offer provision through the Welsh language. I expect that these issues and others will further be debated if the Bill progresses.

I call on the Chair of the Finance Committee, Peredur Owen Griffiths.

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. I welcome the opportunity to participate in this Stage 1 debate on the second Member-proposed Bill to be introduced this Senedd. Our report comes to four conclusions, and makes 11 recommendations. I’d like to start by thanking Sam Rowlands and his officials for attending our committee and for providing a response to our report before today’s debate. I’d like to congratulate Sam and his team on the level of detail provided on the cost estimates included—easy for me to say—in the regulatory impact assessment. I believe that this approach sets a good example for future Bills. Having said that, it is disappointing that the Member has been unable to accept over half of our recommendations.

Although we are broadly content with the costs included in the RIA, subject to the recommendations in our report, we must also recognise the significant level of funding required for this Bill, set against a backdrop of Welsh Government budgetary pressures.

Before turning to specific recommendations, I’d like to highlight our expectation that funding for all Bills should be considered on an equal basis and to the same standard. During our consideration of this Bill, the Minister commented that it was too 'risky' to commit to forecast costings with no indicative budgets post March 2025, given the current financial climate and the 'novel' approach in funding for one aspect of the curriculum. Our view is that a five-year appraisal period for this Bill is appropriate and is in line with the timescales applied by the Welsh Government in assessing the impact of the Bills it introduces.

Similarly, the Minister also raised concerns that the costs set out in the RIA may not reduce over the five-year appraisal period, due to the current rate of inflation. We are content with the approach adopted by the Member in charge in removing inflation when costing the Bill, as it follows HM Treasury Green Book guidance and is in line with the approach taken by the Welsh Government. However, due to the significant cost of his Bill, we recommend that the Member in charge undertakes further analysis on the potential impact of inflation, and it’s good to see this recommendation has been accepted.

Moving on, it is disappointing that our recommendation to provide further analysis in estimating the benefits of the Bill was rejected. However, we were encouraged that the Member in charge fully supports any post-legislative analysis on whether the expected benefits of the Bill have been realised. The committee also welcomes a commitment from the Member in charge to explore the possibility of including a post-implementation review on the face of the Bill, if the Bill progresses to Stage 2. The inclusion of a robust post-implementation review is good practice and helps provide assurance as to how delivery of the objectives of the legislation will be monitored. Additionally, the committee welcomes the clarification provided by the Member in charge regarding any potential inspection requirements associated with the Bill, including any role for Estyn, and the further information provided on achieving effective monitoring. 

The committee made several other recommendations requesting further information, including analysis on the estimated costs in relation to additional learning needs, teacher supply cover, non-specialist items such as clothing and footwear, and tracking pupils’ participation. It is disappointing that these have all been rejected, but we note the reasons given by the Member in charge in his response. 

Finally, Dirprwy Lywydd, our recommendation to undertake further work on the cost implications of potential changes to the school teachers pay and conditions document was also rejected. Although this is once again disappointing, as this cost is potentially significant, we recognise the difficulties in making such an estimate and note the reasons given by the Member in charge. Thank you very much. 

I call on the Chair of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee. Sarah Murphy.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I would also like to begin by thanking Members for their support in electing me as Chair of the LJC committee. I welcome this new challenge. I really look forward to working with other members of the committee, and also the very good clerking team. I would also like to thank and recognise the work and commitment of the former Chair, Huw Irranca-Davies. Wherever you are, Huw, you will be a very difficult act to follow. I was, of course, not a member of the committee during scrutiny of the Bill, however I would like to thank Sam Rowlands, as the Member in charge of the Bill, and Jeremy Miles, the then Minister for Education and the Welsh Language, for giving evidence earlier this year to inform its scrutiny. I feel that it is important to recognise the work that Sam has put into bringing forward the Bill, and therefore I would like to draw attention to the committee's findings. I would also like to thank Sam for issuing, on Monday, a comprehensive response to the six recommendations the committee made in its report.

The first recommendation of the report relates to the core aim of the Bill, which, as the Member in charge told the committee, is to ensure that a course of residential outdoor education is provided as a mandatory part of the curriculum, although children would not be compelled to attend. The Member in charge's view is that a pupil can opt out of receiving that provision by relying on existing regulations made under the Curriculum and Assessment (Wales) Act 2021. However, the committee found that those regulations do not present an appropriate mechanism for a pupil to opt out of such a provision. It came to that conclusion for two reasons. First, the mechanism would only allow a pupil to be opted out on a temporary basis, and, secondly, a pupil would also be required to support their request to opt out with reasons for a headteacher to consider. Therefore, the committee recommended that should this Bill proceed today, it should be amended to include a more appropriate opt-out mechanism on its face. I note that the Member in charge does not share the committee's view on this matter, however he has committed to explore whether such an amendment could be brought forward at Stage 2 to make the Bill's intention clearer and to make its effect easier to manage in practice.

Recommendation 2 reflects the fact that the Bill, as introduced, does not include a definition of 'residential outdoor education'. The committee's view is that the Bill should include such a definition, although the Member in charge does not agree. In the committee's view, this is for reasons of accessibility and good practice, and including a definition on the face of the Bill is more appropriate than relying on information contained in the explanatory memorandum, or the residential outdoor education code, as suggested by the Member in charge.

I will turn, now, to recommendations 3 and 4 of the report, which deal with the fact that the Bill imposes a duty on Welsh Ministers to issue guidance in respect of outdoor residential education. The Bill, as drafted, includes prescribed requirements that must be set out in that guidance. However, it is unclear to the committee why it is not appropriate for such provision to be placed on the face of the Bill. The committee therefore recommended that the Bill should be amended to remove the requirement for those matters to be set out in guidance and to instead insert them directly onto the face of the Bill. In light of this recommendation, it also recommended that the Member in charge should consider whether it's necessary for the Bill to impose a duty on the Welsh Ministers to issue guidance. It does not, indeed, deem that requirement to be necessary. The committee recommended that the Bill should be amended to include the duty as a stand-alone provision within the 2021 Act. The Member in charge has accepted recommendation 3 of the report in principle, by committing to consider each of these prescribed requirements in turn, to determine whether they can be prescribed or dealt with in a different way. He has also accepted recommendation 4, by committing to bring forward an amendment to include the duty as a stand-alone provision. 

We note that the Member in charge has rejected recommendation 5, and that, as a result, the Member in charge is content that the Bill’s requirement for guidance to provide that residential outdoor education should only be provided in Welsh subject to availability and where requested.

The final recommendation questioned whether the Bill should be amended to extend the date by which the first residential outdoor education code and guidance should be issued. I am grateful to the Member in charge for accepting this recommendation, subject to further dialogue with the Minister on this matter, should the Bill proceed today. Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd.

I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Education, Lynne Neagle.

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. Can I start by thanking Sam Rowlands and his team for his work on this Bill, and also thank him for his engagement with myself and my predecessor? I'd also like to thank the Chairs and members of the three scrutiny committees for the work they've done on the Bill.

Like my predecessor and from my work as the Deputy Minister for Mental Health and Well-being, I recognise how much learning outside and experiencing the outdoors has to offer, broadening horizons and contributing to good physical health and mental and emotional well-being. These benefits have been widely recognised by everyone in the progress of the Bill to date. Our new Curriculum for Wales recongises these benefits and is designed to ensure that they're realised, not simply at one point in a leaner's journey, but ensuring that they are threaded throughout learners' time at school. That’s why the statutory guidance for the curriculum expects schools to develop learning opportunities outdoors, from ages three through to 16. It is a clear expectation of the framework that children learn outdoors on a regular basis, and this helps them become healthy, confident individuals. It is a particularly strong component of our support for our youngest learners, but it needs to be developed throughout the school journey.

The details of this will differ from school to school, depending on the school space, and the age and development of the learners. This recognises that what engages learners best and is most supportive for them to develop a lifelong love of the outdoors will vary. There is no one-size-fits-all approach. It also recognises that if we want to change children’s behaviours into adulthood, these behaviours need to be built over time, through continuous exposure to the outdoors. This is so much more important than any single intervention.

These benefits are crucial, but, unfortunately, neither I nor my Cabinet colleagues believe that this Bill is the best way to widen those benefits or residential outdoor education at this time. This Bill would place an absolute obligation on the Welsh Government to both ensure provision and fund a residential outdoor experience for every learner of compulsory school age in a maintained school in Wales, with a likely cost well in excess of £20 million per year.

The effect is that the Welsh Government would have to expressly fund residential outdoor education over and above any other aspect of the new curriculum and, indeed, any other education provision. I recognise that the Member has done a great deal of work to scope out the likely cost of this. I am sympathetic to that, as I am aware of how difficult a task that is.

The Finance Committee has acknowledged that there is still much more work to do to establish the real costs, if the Bill were passed. I am grateful, too, that the Finance Committee’s report noted the current budgetary pressures and the significant level of funding that would be required. Furthermore, throughout the Stage 1 evidence gathering, significant concerns have been raised by stakeholders, especially the Welsh Local Government Association, the Association of Directors of Education and our education unions, about the impact on an already stretched financial situation.

Many stakeholders have highlighted the significant change agenda already being managed by schools in relation to implementing reforms, and the risk of additional challenges to our school workload. Delivering the requirements of this Bill would require changes to the terms and conditions of staff in schools, for example, which many believe could have a detrimental impact on recruitment and retention within the workforce.

I note also the significant concerns raised about the capacity of the residential outdoor education sector to meet the provisions of the Bill, especially in terms of Welsh language provision and ensuring equity of provision for those with additional learning needs. As we have heard, the Children, Young People and Education Committee had similar concerns. Whilst members of the committee were unanimous about the intentions of the Bill, they were unable to reach a consensus on the general principles because of some significant worries about its financing and implementation.

We also consider that the Bill contains a number of legislative weaknesses, many of which have been highlighted by the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee. For example, it does not define on the face of the Bill what constitutes residential outdoor education. It does not apply to pupil referral units. And it does not provide an appropriate legal mechanism for a pupil to be exempted from the mandatory requirement for all pupils to undertake a period of residential outdoor education. I note here that the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee has recommended that the Member bring forward several amendments to address these.

In light of the above, we remain convinced that the general principles of this Bill, while well intentioned, should not be supported. Finally, however, as I and my predecessor have said many times, the contribution that residential outdoor education makes to education in Wales and the development of our children and young people is important and does warrant our recognition and attention. I would therefore like to thank the Member for the work he has done on the Bill to date, and for raising the profile of this vital part of our learners' development journey. The Member and I met earlier this week to discuss this, and I'm pleased to say that we have agreed that there are a number of areas outside legislation that we could explore together to seek to elevate this contribution even further. Diolch. 

I'd like to first congratulate Sam for bringing this forward, and congratulate his Bill team as well on the huge amount of work they've put in, and the high-quality work, as we hear from the finance Chair. I believe this Bill would put Wales firmly on the map for taking a pragmatic but pioneering approach to education and the social development of our young people.

Often in education we see policy makers seeking radical changes to provide our future generation with the best tools to carve their own future, yet we ignore the real building blocks to childhood education, things that are not taught on an e-board, but are learnt in a natural environment, such as confidence, independence and team working—vitally important attributes for future life. And this is something that my colleague Sam rightly seeks to guarantee in our education system with this Bill.

In Monmouthshire, maintaining and subsidising access to outdoor education was a priority for decades. We provided the service with other Gwent councils, but over the years neighbouring councils withdrew their support for no other reason than to make efficiencies. I'd say that was a sad indictment on them. However, we rationalised our provision and maintained the offer, as we had seen the benefits for children for decades. My own children, and no doubt many of yours here, will have benefited from the experiences that they had whilst accessing outdoor education. It's so easy to dismiss things on financial grounds, as we've heard already, and I'm sure there will be Members who will support the merits of the Bill, but have sadly been told not to support due to cost—something I've heard when I brought forward my own Bill, and it's a sad indictment on this place, which doesn't enable backbench legislation to progress.

As I've said before in this Chamber, we need to think of things in different ways. What price do we put on the child's well-being? It is an irrefutable fact that being in the outdoors contributes to increased mental well-being, alongside staying active. And yesterday we heard the First Minister saying how the Government's priority will be on our young people, giving them the best chances in life, he said.

'We will do everything we can in making sure that children can grow up feeling happy and hopeful for their future.'

That was a quote. Surely this Bill would be fundamental to that end, Dirprwy Lywydd. If we can curate a lifelong love of outdoors and physical activity in the next generation, then we have not just left the Welsh public in a better place than we found it, but we will be saving the NHS and other social services tens of millions of pounds in services that assist with mental health and obesity. This Bill is not fanciful; it should be an important part of our educational pedagogy. The proof is in the fact that similar Bills are being brought forward both in Holyrood and Westminster. But we have the unique opportunity to pass this Bill before anyone else does. Let's not just follow the crowd. We need to lead the way and today, Senedd, we have the opportunity to just do that. 

I urge the Senedd to support this Bill and enable it to proceed to Stage 2. All of the things everybody's talked about that have a slight negative element can be looked at through Stage 2, through amendments. Why don't we allow these things to progress and see where they go? And if you can't find a way through that, then things can be stopped in the future. Why always stop legislation before it has an opportunity to progress, to breathe and to really show what it has the potential to do? It's essential that we really safeguard the future well-being of our children, and this is not just a Bill for now, but I see it as a Bill for future generations also. Diolch.

May I start by thanking Sam Rowlands for all of his hard work on this Bill? I’ve had the pleasure of being on the Children, Young People and Education Committee scrutinising this Bill. I’ve asked a number of questions of Sam and we’ve had a number of very lively discussions on the issues, and I do believe, as Peter Fox said, that there is benefit in us moving forward with this Bill, and seeing what could be agreed upon through amendments.

I do have concerns, some of them in relation to how we ensure that the economic benefits of this proposal remain here in Wales. Because, if we are going to make this kind of investment, it would be fantastic to think that everyone would have that opportunity and the economic benefits for so many of our communities would be excellent. We heard about the provision that would need to be extended, and what this would mean for many providers who are perhaps struggling to fill their premises throughout the year—excellent, and I hope that would encourage children and young people to encourage their own families to take advantage of these facilities too. So, of course there is a need to ensure, I believe, that this provision is in Wales if we are to invest in it.

I also welcome what Sam said about some of the things he has agreed upon in terms of strengthening the cultural aspects, not just linguistically, but that we do have those benefits also. Without doubt, I very much hope that we would all agree on the benefits that emerge not only from outdoor education, but also residential experiences. I’d also like to thank all of the teachers and teaching assistants in schools who are already supporting this. We do often hear that not every child in Wales has these opportunities, but I also know of schools who do excellent work in ensuring that every child, no matter what their background is, does have this opportunity. And I think it’s important that we recognise that some of the things that this Bill aims to deliver are already being delivered—the problem is that it’s a postcode lottery at the moment, meaning that not every child has those same opportunities.

We must also reflect on what the Minister said in terms of the huge pressures on staff at the moment. They often do this voluntarily, they don’t receive any additional payment for this work, and they do it because they see the benefit of it for the children and young people in their care when they are in our schools.

There were some concerns raised in terms of the Urdd, and the fact that the Cardiff camp, or Pentre Ifan, wouldn’t qualify. And that’s why I would like to see how we can expand that idea of residential opportunities to include getting to know different areas of our nation too. I know about a number of schools from north Wales who do benefit from coming down here to Cardiff in order to visit the national museum, for example, which we were just discussing earlier, and to visit this Senedd too, and perhaps we do need to ensure, therefore, that we don’t restrict residential opportunities, meaning that those kinds of trips could not happen.

Now, I’m sure that most people here will have had these opportunities themselves. I certainly wouldn’t have heard of the black nun if I hadn’t gone to Llangrannog and Glanllyn and had nightmares about the black nun. But the benefits aren’t just about the activities that you undertake there; socialising, getting to know people from other schools, is all part of this. So, I am eager that we should look pragmatically at this, not just look at the financial implications, but consider how we will ensure, if there is a way by allowing this Bill to progress, that we can, through amendments, ensure that it does what we all want to see it do, namely, provide that equality that every child, wherever they are in Wales, whatever school they attend, or if they don’t attend any school, that they have that equal opportunity. And if we can work together to ensure that, I think we will have achieved a lot as a Senedd. Thank you.

I'd first like to start by congratulating and thanking my colleague, the Member for North Wales, Sam Rowlands, for all his hard work on this Bill and getting it to this stage. I agree with what all my colleagues have said so far on this Bill, but particularly with Peter Fox's last words just now that this is a Bill for future generations, and I think that's a very key sentence when thinking about and contemplating this Bill and why we should push it forward. 

The ideas and aims of this Bill are admirable, but the benefits are huge—that every child should have the opportunity for an outdoor residential experience. Although I would like the Member, Sam Rowlands, of course—sorry, I can't speak very well—to ensure that all children, and I mean all children, as the new Chair for the children and young people committee has just outlined, have that opportunity, because at the moment certain children are left out. So, it's really vital that we do include those children, because it's actually those children who are missing from that at the moment that are perhaps the most vulnerable and would benefit the most from a Bill of this kind.

As we all know, making sure that children have access to residential outdoor education would have a long-term positive impact on mental and physical health, as well as creating good habits, as the Member has outlined earlier in his speech. It also saves money long term, because, by taking a preventative health approach, it bolsters that mental and physical health for the future—particularly good when we look at ourselves as a country that has appallingly bad obesity rates within children. 

It also gives young people memorable experiences, which gives them confidence and teamwork skills, and a variety of other benefits that we've outlined time and time again within our CYPE committee and in this Chamber already, as well as promoting Wales and the Welsh language—there are so many benefits and opportunities there—and also to benefit our Welsh outdoor education centres, as Heledd outlined, and our local economies. The Bill would benefit those children particularly from urban areas who may not usually have the chance to explore the countryside and see everything that Wales has to offer. 

It would also benefit children from poorer families, who are often priced out of residentials. In turn, this would help close that educational inequality gap. At the moment, these opportunities are, as Heledd has already outlined, a postcode lottery, and that is not a good place for us to be in here in Wales. The activities offered are challenging and adventurous, and the Bill would enhance, of course, the competencies at the heart of the new Curriculum for Wales, namely healthy, confident individuals who are creative contributors, ambitious and capable learners and ethically-informed citizens.

There are, of course, some concerns that we discussed in our committee, but I hope that this Welsh Government can look still to support this Bill and see what more can be done. I think it would be a real shame if it stopped now and didn't go forward, because I want to see the Government put more effort into working closely with the Member to develop what is so positive about this Bill. But, also, for what you're concerned about, there are opportunities and there are solutions to it. If we look hard enough and we work hard enough, we can find that money, as Peter Fox said, and we can find solutions if we want to.

Even if the Welsh Government can't support it, I really hope that today they will work with the Member for North Wales to see what can be achieved to provide those better opportunities for children across Wales, striving for that equality of opportunity for all, which should be so important to every single Member in this Senedd. But I urge everyone today to support this Bill so that it can move forward to the next Stage, Stage 2, and I urge you to do that. Thank you.