Pwyllgor Diwylliant, Cyfathrebu, y Gymraeg, Chwaraeon, a Chysylltiadau Rhyngwladol
Culture, Communications, Welsh Language, Sport, and International Relations Committee
17/04/2024Aelodau'r Pwyllgor a oedd yn bresennol
Committee Members in Attendance
| Carolyn Thomas | |
| Delyth Jewell | Cadeirydd y Pwyllgor |
| Committee Chair | |
| Hefin David | |
| Llyr Gruffydd | |
| Tom Giffard | |
Y rhai eraill a oedd yn bresennol
Others in Attendance
| Dafydd Evans | ColegauCymru |
| CollegesWales | |
| Dona Lewis | Y Ganolfan Dysgu Cymraeg Genedlaethol |
| The National Centre for Learning Welsh | |
| Dr Ioan Matthews | Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol |
| Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol | |
| Lisa Mytton | Ffederasiwn Hyfforddiant Cenedlaethol Cymru |
| National Training Federation for Wales |
Swyddogion y Senedd a oedd yn bresennol
Senedd Officials in Attendance
| Haidee James | Ail Glerc |
| Second Clerk | |
| Lleu Williams | Clerc |
| Clerk | |
| Osian Bowyer | Ymchwilydd |
| Researcher | |
| Robin Wilkinson | Ymchwilydd |
| Researcher | |
| Sara Moran | Ymchwilydd |
| Researcher | |
| Tanwen Summers | Dirprwy Glerc |
| Deputy Clerk |
Cynnwys
Contents
Cofnodir y trafodion yn yr iaith y llefarwyd hwy ynddi yn y pwyllgor. Yn ogystal, cynhwysir trawsgrifiad o’r cyfieithu ar y pryd. Mae hon yn fersiwn ddrafft o’r cofnod.
The proceedings are reported in the language in which they were spoken in the committee. In addition, a transcription of the simultaneous interpretation is included. This is a draft version of the record.
Cyfarfu’r pwyllgor yn y Senedd a thrwy gynhadledd fideo.
Dechreuodd y cyfarfod am 09:29.
The committee met in the Senedd and by video-conference.
The meeting began at 09:29.
Bore da. Hoffwn i groesawu'r Aelodau i'r cyfarfod hwn o'r Pwyllgor Diwylliant, Cyfathrebu, y Gymraeg, Chwaraeon a Chysylltiadau Rhyngwladol. Oes gan unrhyw Aelodau fuddiannau i'w datgan? Dydw i ddim yn gweld bod ganddynt. Mae Alun Davies wedi anfon ymddiheuriadau y bore yma.
Good morning. I'd like to welcome Members to this meeting of the Culture, Communications, Welsh Language, Sport and International Relations Committee. Do Members have any interests to declare? No, I don't see any. Alun Davies has sent his apologies this morning.
Fe wnawn ni symud yn syth ymlaen at eitem 2, sef ymchwiliad undydd i ddatblygu'r ddarpariaeth Gymraeg ôl-16, ac mae gyda ni sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda sefydliadau addysg a hyfforddiant ôl-16. Fe wnaf i ofyn i'n tystion gyflwyno eu hunain ar gyfer y record. Fe wnaf i fynd at Dr Matthews yn gyntaf, sydd yn yr ystafell.
We'll move straight on to item 2, the one-day inquiry into the development of post-16 Welsh language provision, and we have an evidence session with post-16 education and training organisations. I'll ask our witnesses to introduce themselves for the record. I'll go to Dr Matthews first, who's in the room.
Bore da. Ioan Matthews, prif weithredwr y Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol.
Good morning. I'm Ioan Matthews, chief executive of Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol.
Diolch yn fawr iawn. Ac fe wnawn ni fynd at Lisa yn gyntaf arlein.
Thank you very much. And we'll go to Lisa first online.
Good morning. Lisa Mytton, strategic director, National Training Federation Wales.
Diolch yn fawr iawn. Ac fe wnawn ni fynd at Dafydd.
Thank you very much. And we'll go to Dafydd.
Dafydd Evans, prif weithredwr Grŵp Llandrillo Menai, ond heddiw yma yn cynrychioli ColegauCymru. Dwi'n gyn-gadeirydd ColegauCymru.
Dafydd Evans, chief executive of Grŵp Llandrillo Menai, but here today representing ColegauCymru. I'm former chair.
Mae'n hyfryd eich cael chi i gyd gyda ni y bore yma, felly diolch yn fawr iawn. Fe wnawn ni symud yn syth at gwestiynau, os yw hynny'n iawn gyda phawb. Fe wnaf i ofyn yn gyntaf—. Gyda llaw, does dim rhaid i chi gyd ateb pob cwestiwn—os ydych chi eisiau, jest dangoswch eich bod chi eisiau dod i mewn ar y cwestiynau.
Allwch chi ddweud wrthym ni ychydig yn fwy na'r hyn rydych chi wedi'i anfon aton ni mewn tystiolaeth am sut mae'r sector rydych chi'n gweithio ynddo fe yn gweithio tuag at gyflawni nod Cymraeg 2050, ac a ydych chi'n meddwl bod y targedau sydd gyda ni yn dal yn rhai sydd yn realistig, o ystyried beth sydd wedi digwydd yn ddiweddar? Rwy'n gweld bod Dr Matthews eisiau ateb, so fe wnaf i fynd at Dr Matthews yn gyntaf.
It's great to have you all with us this morning, so thank you very much. We'll move straight into questions, if that's okay with everybody. I'll ask first of all—. By the way, not all of you have to answer every question—just indicate if you want to come in on any question.
Could you tell us a little bit more than what you've sent us in evidence about how the sector that you're working in works towards the aims of Cymraeg 2050, and whether you think the targets that we have are still realistic, given what's happened recently? I can see that Dr Matthews wants to come in first.
Os caf i ddechrau, diolch yn fawr am y gwahoddiad i fod yma heddiw, a diolch am eich diddordeb chi yn y maes yma. I ateb eich cwestiwn, os gallwn ni gyd-destunoli ychydig bach i ddechrau, mae'r sector addysg bellach a'r sector prentisiaethau yn allweddol i ymgyrraedd tuag at nodau strategaeth iaith Gymraeg Llywodraeth Cymru am nifer o resymau, gan gynnwys y ffaith bod y rhan fwyaf o'r bobl ifanc sy'n mynd i fod yn dilyn yr hyfforddiant yma yn debygol o aros yn eu cymunedau i fyw a gweithio a defnyddio'r Gymraeg. Felly, mae'n allweddol. Ond o edrych yn hanesyddol ar y sefyllfa, dydy'r sectorau hyn, gyda rhai eithriadau—ac mae Dafydd yma bore yma—mewn rhannau helaeth o Gymru, mae'r ddarpariaeth yma heb ddatblygu rhyw lawer o gwbl tan yn gymharol ddiweddar. Mae'r cyfleoedd i astudio trwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg wedi bod yn gyfyngedig iawn.
Pan gafodd adolygiad ei gynnal o waith y Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol rai blynyddoedd yn ôl—a'n gwaith ni'n wreiddiol, wrth gwrs, ym maes prifysgolion—yr hyn wnaeth y coleg gyflwyno i'r adolygiad yna oedd y byddem ni'n ystyried bod angen cynllun hirdymor a chynllun uchelgeisiol ar gyfer mynd i'r afael â'r diffyg datblygiad, diffyg cynllunio hanesyddol, yn y sectorau hyn. Newyddion da, wrth gwrs, yw bod y Llywodraeth yn y Senedd flaenorol wedi derbyn y cynllun hwnnw, ac yn y Senedd hon wedi dechrau ei gyllido fe o ddifrif. Rŷn ni felly yn dechrau ar gynllun i drawsnewid y sefyllfa.
Mae yna fuddsoddi wedi dechrau yn weddol sylweddol yn 2022, ac mi oedd yna ymrwymiad am gynnydd pellach eleni. Rŷn ni'n deall pam fod yna heriau cyllidebol ar hyn o bryd, ac felly yn deall y pwysau sydd ar gyllidebau ar bob llaw, ond hefyd yn croesawu'r bwriad a'r ymrwymiad i ailbroffilio'r cyllid oedd i fod i gael ei ddarparu'n ychwanegol eleni—y flwyddyn nesaf.
Mae'r data'n dangos ein bod ni'n dechrau o fan isel iawn, ond mae'r data hefyd yn dangos bod yna beth cynnydd yn barod a bod y buddsoddi yn dechrau talu ffordd. Ond er mwyn gwneud y newid yma yn un parhaol—efallai y down ni ymlaen at rai o'r heriau nes ymlaen—mae angen i'r cyllid yma a'r adnoddau, ond hefyd y cynllunio a'r cydweithio rhwng gwahanol gyrff, adeiladu ar beth sydd wedi cael ei gynnal yn barod, ac mae angen iddo fe barhau am rai blynyddoedd. Felly, dyna'n fras pam fyddem ni'n gweld y sectorau hyn mor allweddol.
If I could start, thank you very much for the invitation to be here, and thank you for your interest in this area. To answer your question, if we can contextualise this a little first of all, the further education and apprenticeship sectors are crucial to attaining the targets of the Welsh Government's Welsh language strategy for a number of reasons, including the fact that most of the young people who will be taking this training are likely to stay in their communities to live and work and use the Welsh language. So, it is crucial. But looking historically at the situation, these sectors are not, with some exceptions—and Dafydd is here this morning—in large parts of Wales, the provision hasn't developed much at all until relatively recently. Opportunities to study through the medium of Welsh have been few and far between.
When a review of the work of the Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol was undertaken some years ago—and our work originally was with universities, of course—what the coleg presented to that review was that we believed that there was a need for a long-term, ambitious plan in order to tackle this lack of development and planning historically in these sectors. The good news is, of course, that the Government in the previous Senedd had accepted that plan, and in this Senedd had began to fund it in earnest. We are therefore beginning to implement a plan to transform the situation.
Quite significant investment commenced in 2022, and there was a commitment for a further increase this year. We understand why there are budgetary challenges at the moment, and therefore understand the pressures on budgets in all areas, but also welcome the intention and the commitment to reprofile the funding that was to be provided in addition this year—next year.
The data demonstrates that we are starting from a very low point, but the data also shows that there has already been some progress and that the investment is starting to pay off. But in order to make this change a permanent one—and perhaps we can move on to some of the challenges later on—we need this funding and these resources, but also the planning and collaboration between various organisations, to build on what's been done in the past, and it needs to continue for some years to come. So that, broadly speaking, is why I think these sectors are so crucial.
Diolch yn fawr iawn am hynna. Allaf i ofyn a yw Dafydd neu Lisa eisiau dod i mewn ar hyn? Fe wnaf i fynd at Dafydd.
Thank you very much for that. Could I ask whether Dafydd or Lisa want to come in on that? Dafydd.
Diolch. I atgyfnerthu beth oedd Ioan yn ei ddweud, dwi wedi gweithio yn y sector ers 30 mlynedd, ac, yn sicr, ers i'r Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol gymryd cyfrifoldeb dros y sector, dwi'n meddwl bod yna ymagweddu llawer iawn mwy positif gan yr holl golegau tuag at yr agenda ddwyieithog, a dwi'n meddwl bod hwnna'n gam pwysig iawn, iawn. Mae dwyieithrwydd ar agenda pob cyfarfod ac yn y blaen bellach, ac o fewn cynllun gweithredu pob un sefydliad yng Nghymru, ac mae hynna'n beth iach iawn, iawn. Dwi'n siŵr mai beth y byddwn ni'n ei drafod yn nes ymlaen yn y sgwrs yma fydd yr adnoddau i weithredu ar yr ymagweddu mwy positif yna, a sut dŷn ni'n mynd o gwmpas gwneud hynny, ond yn sicr mae yna gynnydd wedi bod. Ond y peth pwysicaf un ydy ein bod ni'n dod dros, dwi'n teimlo, y cam a bod yr ymagweddu yn llawer iawn mwy positif tuag at yr her o gyflwyno addysg alwedigaethol ddwyieithog.
Thank you. Just to endorse what Ioan was saying, I have worked in the sector for 30 years, and, certainly, since the Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol took responsibility for the sector, I think there has been a much more positive approach from all colleges towards the bilingual agenda, and I think that's a very important step. Bilingualism is on the agenda of every meeting and so on now, and are within the operational plans of every organisation in Wales, and that is a very healthy thing. I'm sure that what we'll be discussing later on in this discussion will be the resources to implement this more positive approach, and how we go about that, but certainly there's been progress. But the most important thing is that we have developed a more positive approach to the challenge of introducing bilingual and Welsh education.
Diolch am hynna, Dafydd. Cyn i fi fynd at Lisa—achos dwi'n gwybod bod Lisa eisiau dod i mewn hefyd—gaf i eich gwthio chi ychydig? Ydych chi'n meddwl bod y targedau y tu mewn i 2050 yn dal yn rhai sydd yn realistig?
Thank you for that, Dafydd. Before I go to Lisa—because I know Lisa wants to come in on this as well—may I push you a little bit? Do you think that the targets within 2050 are still realistic ones?
Na, petaswn i'n bod yn onest. Fel mae Ioan yn ei ddweud, er ein bod ni wedi gweld cynnydd, dwi ddim yn meddwl bod y cynnydd hwnnw'n rhoi hyder i mi ddweud y buasem ni'n medru cyrraedd targedau 2050, oherwydd mae hwnnw'n sôn am siaradwyr, ond mae lot o'r gwaith dŷn ni'n ei wneud ar hyn o bryd, o fewn y colegau y tu allan efallai i'n hardaloedd Cymraeg ni yr ydw i'n gweithredu ynddyn nhw, lawer iawn mwy ynglŷn â chodi ymwybyddiaeth a dealltwriaeth o fodolaeth yr iaith ar adegau, yn hytrach na chreu siaradwyr Cymraeg. Os ydyn ni'n mynd i gael siaradwyr Cymraeg, yna mae'n rhaid cael tipyn mwy o adnoddau, dwi'n meddwl, i mewn i'r pot, i gyrraedd y targed.
No. If I'm being honest, although, as Ioan said, we have seen some progress, I don't think that that progress can give me confidence in saying that the targets for 2050 are achievable, because that talks about Welsh speakers, but much of the work that we're doing now, within the colleges outwith the Welsh-speaking heartlands where I operate, are far more to do with raising awareness about the existence of the language, rather than creating new Welsh speakers. If we're going to have new Welsh speakers, then I think we would need a lot more resource in the pot to reach that target.
Diolch am hynna, Dafydd. Lisa.
Thank you for that, Dafydd. Lisa.
Diolch. Thank you, Delyth. From a post-16 perspective and apprenticeship perspective, I have to say I've worked with the Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol in a personal capacity over a number of years, when I actually worked for a work-based learning provider, so really speaking from the heart in the support that they gave me. And I'm a Welsh speaker—
rydw i'n dysgu Cymraeg.
I'm learning Welsh.
I am learning Welsh. I'm an English speaker, but I headed up the Welsh learning section for the provider, and if it wasn't for their support, I really don't know where we'd be. We were very much walking through mud for our learners, and our staff as well. It's so critical that we have that support, and the evidence is there. Because with the coleg's support, inevitably, especially for independent training providers to have that support, and to have those additional resources, in order to provide Welsh-medium and bilingual offers for the learners, who are transitioning from school into the world of apprenticeships, we want to continue that momentum forward of continuing to use their language skills, and develop Welsh in the workplace as well. It's been a vital resource for us, I have to say, helping to not only upskill assessors—those assessors who've also got Welsh-medium backgrounds, helping them to continue to use their language skills as well—and also physical resources, as far as information technology. Prentis-iaith is one that they supported us with—we now have that for every single apprentice learner in Wales; they have Prentis-iaith. It helps to encourage Welsh in the workplace, so that bilingual element, as well as taking qualifications and their apprenticeship through the medium of Welsh, and bilingually as well. So, it certainly helps us, from an apprenticeship perspective.
Thank you very much, Lisa.
Fe wnawn ni symud at Carolyn.
We'll move to Carolyn.
I'd just like to ask: what's the measure of a Welsh speaker? What would you define as a Welsh speaker? Is that someone you think would be comfortable speaking Welsh, or do you think a bit of Wenglish is fine as well?
Mae hwnna'n gwestiwn da iawn. Dwi'n credu mai'r peth cyntaf i ddweud ydy, pan gafodd y cynllun gweithredu ei ddatblygu, roedden ni'n eithaf clir o'r dechrau mai'r bwriad oedd targedu pawb, oherwydd mae gan bawb y capasiti a'r cyfle i ymwneud â'r Gymraeg yn eu bywyd bob dydd ac yn eu hastudiaethau. Felly, bwriad y cynllun ydy galluogi pob dysgwr, hyd yn oed ar lefel ymwybyddiaeth yn unig, i fod yn rhan o'r drafodaeth, ac roedd Lisa'n cyfeirio at hynny. Wrth gwrs, yr hyn sydd angen ei wneud wrth symud ymlaen ydy sicrhau bod yna fwy o ddysgwyr yn ymwneud â'r Gymraeg ar y lefelau uwch, yn hyderus i astudio rhannau o'u hyfforddiant ac i ddilyn rhannau o'r hyfforddiant drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg, a bod y cyfleoedd iddyn nhw wneud hynny ar gael.
Dwi'n credu mai un o'r heriau hefyd ydy bod yna, yn hanesyddol, gryn dipyn o amwysedd ynglŷn â beth yn union rŷn ni'n ei olygu, fel rŷch chi'n ei awgrymu. Efallai down ni ymlaen nes ymlaen i sôn am y Comisiwn Addysg Drydyddol ac Ymchwil newydd, ond un o'r cyfleoedd, dwi’n meddwl, i’r comisiwn yna yw ailedrych ar ddiffiniadau ac i gael sail ddata gadarn ar gyfer symud ymlaen. Mae yna enghreifftiau yn y data presennol sydd yn amlwg yn anghywir. Mae yna ddata, er enghraifft, sy’n awgrymu mai 0.6 y cant o ddysgwyr Coleg Sir Gâr sy’n medru’r Gymraeg yn rhugl. Wel, all hwnna ddim bod yn gywir. Mae yna ddata nad oes neb yng Ngholeg Merthyr Tudful yn medru’r Gymraeg o gwbl. Mae’r data yma yn amlwg yn broblemus.
Felly, er mwyn symud ymlaen—ac fel mae Dafydd yn dweud, mae yna heriau—er mwyn adeiladu, mae angen i ni edrych yn fwy manwl ar rai o’r diffiniadau hyn. Ond dwi’n credu mai un pwynt sylfaenol yw mai beth sy’n bwysig ydy bod y dysgwr yn teimlo bod ganddyn nhw ymwneud â’r Gymraeg yn eu profiad personol nhw. Ac felly dyw’r ffaith bod y ddarpariaeth ar gael yn ddamcaniaethol ddim yn golygu bod y dysgwr o reidrwydd yn dilyn darpariaeth ddwyieithog. A’r hyn sydd angen ei wneud ydy gwneud yr elfen ddwyieithog yna lot yn fwy ystyrlon, dwi’n meddwl.
That's a very good question. I think the first thing that should be said is that, when the operational plan was developed, it was quite clear from the outset that the intention was to target everybody, because everyone has the capacity and the opportunity to engage with the Welsh language in their daily lives and their studies. So, the intention of the plan is to enable all learners, even at an awareness level, to be part of the discussion, and Lisa referred to that. Of course, what needs to be done as we move forward is to ensure that there are more learners involved with the Welsh language at the higher levels, and that are confident in studying parts of their training through the medium of Welsh, and that those opportunities for them to do so are available.
I think that one of the challenges too is that, historically, there's been some ambiguity as to what exactly we mean, as you suggest in your question. Perhaps we will move to talk about the new Commission for Tertiary Education and Research later, but I think one of the opportunities for that commission is to review these definitions and to have a firm foundation in data in order to move forward. I think there are examples in the current data that are clearly inaccurate. There is data, for example, that suggests that 0.6 per cent of learners at Coleg Sir Gâr are fluent Welsh speakers. Well, that can’t be correct. There is data that nobody in Merthyr Tydfil college is a Welsh speaker. This data is clearly problematic.
So, in order to make progress—and as Dafydd said, there are challenges—if we are to build, then we do need to look in more detail at some of these definitions. But I think one fundamental point, and what’s important, is that the learner feels that they have a relationship with the Welsh language in their own personal experiences. So, the fact that the provision is nominally available doesn’t mean that the learner will take up that bilingual learning, and what we need to do is to make that bilingual element far more meaningful, I think.
Diddorol. Oes rhywun arall—? Mae Dafydd eisiau dod i mewn.
Interesting. Does anybody else want to come in? Dafydd.
Hwyrach mai enghraifft y buaswn i’n ei rhoi o hynny'n gweithredu ydy, pe baech chi'n mynd i mewn i’n cwrs trin ceir ni yn Llangefni, mi fyddech chi’n clywed y tiwtor yn siarad efo’r myfyrwyr drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg, ond mi fyddan nhw’n defnyddio terminoleg fel ‘gerbocs’, ‘steering wheel’, ac yn y blaen, fel y byddech chi’n clywed mewn unrhyw garej yng Ngwynedd lle mae’r mecanics yn Gymraeg. Nawr te, ydy hwnna'n gwrs dwyieithog, ac yn y blaen? Dwi’n meddwl bod honna'n drafodaeth ar ryw bwynt y mae’n rhaid i ni ei chael: beth yn union ydy’r disgwyliadau yn fanna, a beth ydy’r diffiniadau, fel mae Ioan yn dweud? I mi, mae hwnna’n brofiad gwych yn nhermau datblygu’r iaith, ond mi fyddai yna rai sydd yn fwy, hwyrach, uniongred yn credu y dylem ni fod yn defnyddio pethau fel ‘blwch gêr’ a ‘llyw’ yn hytrach na ‘steering wheel’, a dwi’n meddwl bod honna’n broblem, mewn un ystyr—nad yw'r disgwyliadau'n glir—a hefyd beth ydyn ni’n disgwyl yng nghyd-destun y math yna o gwrs yn nhermau gwaith ysgrifenedig? Ai sôn am filiwn o siaradwyr ydyn ni ynteu ydyn ni’n ffocysu ar y sgiliau iaith Gymraeg hefyd, yn ysgrifenedig?
Perhaps an example that I would give of that is that if you went into our car mechanic course in Llangefni, you’d hear the tutor speak with students through the medium of Welsh, but they would use terminology such as ‘gearbox’, ‘steering wheel’, and so forth, as you would hear in any garage in Gwynedd where the mechanics are Welsh speaking. Now, is that a bilingual course, and so forth? I think that’s a discussion that we need to have at some point: what exactly are the expectations here, and what are the definitions, as Ioan mentioned? To me, that is an excellent experience in terms of language development, but perhaps there would be some who would feel more strongly that we should be using things such as ‘blwch gêr’ and ‘llyw’ instead of ‘steering wheel’, and I think that is a problem. On the one hand, the expectations are unclear, and also what do we expect in the context of that sort of course in terms of written work? Are we talking about a million speakers or are we focusing on Welsh language written skills also?
Byddai gan Saunders Lewis—. Rwy'n meddwl am bethau fel 'Cadwn y mur' a phethau fel yna.
Saunders Lewis, I think, would—. I'm thinking of 'Cadwn y mur' and so on.
Lisa, did you want to come in on this, because it was prompted, I think, by something that you had said? So, what were your thoughts on what Carolyn had asked there?
Sorry, Chair, did you come to me then? I didn't catch the last bit.
Yes, I was just saying that—. Well, do you have any thoughts on this?
Yes, just echoing, really, what Dafydd just said, inevitably what we want to try to achieve is more learners coming through and using their Welsh language skills, as I've said, but I think we also have to take on board that bilingual offer as well, plus just culturally changing how the workplace looks, not only for the training providers but, obviously, for the learner as well, so they do see the incidental Welsh used as well. So, I think it's a package of all of these elements, really, which support the target. But, as Dafydd said, is it being fluent and producing evidence all in the Welsh medium, or is it having aspects of a little bit, because I think that would grow, then, the use of the language for everybody. Even for those, as I said, who aren't necessarily Welsh speakers, like myself, you find yourself actually using it throughout the day incidentally and it encourages you then to use it more and more. I think that is the same for our learners.
Lovely. Diolch yn fawr iawn. Carolyn.
Dwi'n dysgu Cymraeg.
I'm learning Welsh.
To hear that does give me confidence. I have words stuck around my house to try and remind me to remember certain words as well.
That's wonderful.
Thank you. I'd just like to ask to what extent witnesses recognise the Welsh Language Commissioner's suggestion that attempts to extend Welsh-medium and bilingual provision in the post-compulsory sector have been an uphill battle over the past decade, and there's nothing to suggest that this will change
to suggest that this will change in the future, which sounds a bit dismal, doesn't it? So, just your thoughts on that, please.
Rŷm ni mewn trafodaethau gyda'r comisiynydd. Yn amlwg, fel dywedais i'n gynharach, yn draddodiadol mae yna ddiffyg buddsoddiad a diffyg datblygiad wedi bod. Mae'r sefyllfa yna yn dechrau newid. Rydym ni wedi nodi rhai o'r buddsoddiadau sydd wedi bod yn ystod y ddwy flynedd diwethaf. Mae yna 62 o ymarferwyr wedi cael eu penodi yn benodol yn y colegau addysg bellach yn dilyn buddsoddiad gan y coleg a chydweithio gyda cholegau. Mae yna 21 asesydd prentisiaethau wedi cael eu penodi. Mae yna grantiau hyrwyddo'n cael eu darparu mewn pynciau blaenoriaeth. Felly, mae'r sefyllfa yn dechrau newid, ond, fel roeddwn i'n dweud, rŷm ni yn adeiladu.
Heblaw am Grŵp Llandrillo Menai a Choleg Sir Gâr, ar y cyfan, darniog iawn a bach iawn yw'r ddarpariaeth wedi bod. Mae'r cynllunio wedi bod yn absennol, mewn gwirionedd. Ond, fel roedd Dafydd wedi cyfeirio ato, mae yna newid diwylliant wedi bod. Mae yna gyfle nawr i drawsnewid y sefyllfa, a bydd gan y comisiwn newydd rôl bwysig i'w chwarae yn hynny. Rwy'n credu bod pob darn o dystiolaeth, dwi'n meddwl, sydd wedi cael ei gyflwyno'r bore yma yn cydnabod yr heriau, maint yr her a bod hwn yn ddarn tymor hir o waith, ac felly'n dangos pryder y byddai peidio â pharhau i'w gyllido fe yn arafu'r momentwm.
Ond rwy'n credu bod angen cydnabod bod yna lwyth o waith i'w wneud, mae yna lot fawr i'w wneud, ond mae yna gyfleoedd yn fan hyn. Ac mae angen hefyd, siŵr o fod, wahanol gynlluniau ar gyfer gwahanol ardaloedd o Gymru er mwyn adlewyrchu'r gwahanol gyd-destunau ieithyddol sy'n bodoli.
We're in discussions with the commissioner, and clearly, as I said earlier, traditionally, there has been a lack of investment and a lack of development in this area, but that situation is starting to change. We've noted some of the investments that have been made over the past two years. There are 62 practitioners that have been appointed specifically in FE colleges following investment by the coleg and collaboration with individual colleges. There are 21 apprenticeship assessors that have been appointed. There are promotional grants provided in priority subjects. So, the situation is starting to change, but, as I said, we are building.
Apart from Grŵp Llandrillo Menai and Coleg Sir Gâr, generally speaking, the provision has been patchy and inadequate. The planning has been absent, if I'm honest. But, as Dafydd mentioned, there's been a change of culture. There is an opportunity now to transform the situation, and the new commission will have an important role to play in doing that. I think all the evidence presented this morning does recognise challenges, the scale of the challenge and that this is a long-term piece of work, and so that there is concern that a failure to continue with investment would slow momentum in this area.
But I do think that we need to recognise that there's a huge amount of work to be done, but there are also opportunities here. And we also need different plans for different areas of Wales in order to reflect the different linguistic contexts that exist.
Diolch. Dafydd.
Thank you. Dafydd.
Dwi'n meddwl bod y comisiynydd iaith yn adnabod, mewn ffordd, pan fydd pobl ifanc yn symud o'r ysgolion drwodd i'r sector ôl-16, maen nhw'n gweld eu hunain wedi tyfu i fyny ac efo hawl rŵan i wneud dewisiadau, lle hwyrach doedd y dewisiadau yna ddim ganddyn nhw yn yr ysgol. Ac un o'r dewisiadau yna maen nhw'n dymuno ei wneud ydy'r cyfrwng iaith maen nhw'n cael eu haddysg ynddo fo. Felly, dwi'n meddwl bod o'n bwysig iawn bod ni'n gwneud gwaith sydd yn hyrwyddo yr iaith a gwerth yr iaith yn y gweithle, er enghraifft, fel bod y bobl ifanc yma yn gweld yr iaith fel sgìl.
Yn ogystal, dwi'n meddwl bod yna waith i'w wneud—a dwi'n gwybod bod un o aelodau'r pwyllgor yma, Hefin David, wedi gwneud adroddiad ar agweddau ar hyn, sef y trosiant yma o ysgolion drosodd i golegau—a dwi'n meddwl bod yna waith i'w wneud yn fanna yn nhermau ein bod ni'n deall yn well sgiliau iaith y bobl sydd yn dod i fewn i'n colegau ni o'r ysgolion. Dydy'r pontio yna ddim yn effeithiol ar hyn o bryd, a dwi'n meddwl bod hwnnw'n faes lle buasem ni'n medru bod yn llawer iawn mwy slic ynglŷn ag o—ein bod ni'n deall yn well yn union beth ydy sgiliau pobl sy'n dod i fewn i'n colegau ni o'r ysgolion.
I think the language commissioner recognises, in a way, that when young people move from schools through to the post-16 sector, they see themselves having grown up and with a right now to make choices, where perhaps they didn't have those choices when they were in school. And one of those choices that they wish to make is the language in which they receive their education. So, I think it's very important that we do work that promotes the language and the value of the language in the workplace, for example, so that these young people see the language as a skill.
In addition, I think there is work to be done—and I know that one of the members of this committee, Hefin David, has prepared a report an aspects of this, namely the transition from schools to colleges—and I think there is work to be done there so that we better understand the language skills of people who come into our colleges from the schools. That transition isn't effective currently, and I think that is an area where we could be much more slick so that we better understand what people's skills are coming into our colleges from schools.
Diolch, Dafydd. Roedd Lisa eisiau dod i mewn hefyd.
Thank you, Dafydd. Lisa wanted to come in as well.
Yes, just very quickly—it was something that Ioan said and Dafydd's just pointed to it as well, but something that Ioan said. I think, for us, historically, we've seen an issue with recruitment of qualified assessors, and again going back to the coleg's support, as he said, we've had a number of work-based assessors who've been supported to be qualified in-house via the coleg's support. But also, that transition now into CTER as well is so vitally important, so there is an understanding, really, of what is needed for all provisions.
And then also, as well, going back to the geographical areas but also considering the qualifications that are delivered pan Wales, and the need for the Welsh-medium offer, we're doing well in health and social care. It's a really big qualification in apprenticeships, that we see the need there, and that's going well, I have to say, in both the bilingual and the Welsh-medium offer. But we do need support then via CTER with Qualifications Wales, et cetera, in offering more qualifications through the medium of Welsh. The new information technology digital-based qualification, such growth in Wales, and, of course, land-based qualifications as well. It's important that we're able to, yes, put the offer out there to young people, but make sure that we've got the qualifications delivered through the medium of Welsh in order to support that as well. So, they have to work hand in hand.
Lyfli. Diolch yn fawr iawn. Fe wnawn ni symud at Llyr.
Lovely. Thank you very much. We'll move on to Llyr.
Bore da. Diolch yn fawr. Roedd Ioan yn sôn gynnau fod buddsoddi yn hanesyddol, efallai, ddim wedi bod beth ddylai fe fod a bod hynny'n dechrau newid. Wrth gwrs, yn y flwyddyn ariannol yma yn awr, yn sgil ailflaenoriaethu cyllideb y Llywodraeth, dyw e ddim efallai'n newid yn y modd y rhagwelwyd y byddai fe yn gynharach. Felly, y cwestiwn yn syml yw pa effaith fydd yr ailflaenoriaethu ar y gyllideb yn ei chael ar yr adnoddau sydd ar gael i'r coleg, wrth gwrs, ond yn bennaf oll o safbwynt effaith ar weithredu ei raglen waith.
Good morning. Thank you very much. Ioan mentioned earlier that investment historically, perhaps, hadn't been what it should be and that that was starting to change. Of course, in this financial year now, as a result of the reprioritisation of the Government's budget, perhaps it's not changing in the way that it was foreseen earlier. So, the question, simply, is what impact will the reprioritisation of the budget have on the resources available to the coleg, of course, but mainly the impact on implementing its work programme.
Wel, dwi'n credu mai'r newyddion da yw bod y buddsoddi presennol yn mynd i barhau, ac mae'r lefel yna o fuddsoddi presennol—. Roeddwn i'n cyfeirio at rai o'r swyddi newydd sydd wedi cael eu creu, ym mhob coleg ac ym mhob darparwr prentisiaeth. Yn anffodus, bydd yna rai cynlluniau a gynlluniwyd ar gyfer eleni nawr ddim yn gallu digwydd. Felly, y risg ydy colli momentwm a cholli cyfle o ganlyniad. Rydyn ni wedi bod yn cael trafodaethau gyda swyddogion y Llywodraeth—is-adran y Gymraeg, ac yn y blaen—a hoffwn i ddweud bod y gefnogaeth a'r berthynas gyda'r swyddogion yn arbennig o dda, ac rydyn ni'n deall yr heriau y mae pawb yn eu hwynebu. Yr hyn dwi'n credu sydd i'w groesawu'n fawr yw'r ymrwymiad sydd wedi cael ei wneud ym mis Chwefror i edrych ar ailbroffilio'r cyllid yma y flwyddyn nesaf. O wneud hynny, mae hynny'n rhoi cyfle i ni eleni gymryd cam yn ôl, ac rydyn ni'n bwriadu adolygu'r strategaeth, mesur effaith y strategaeth ac edrych ar ble mae modd canolbwyntio'n hymdrechion wrth i ni symud ymlaen.
Hefyd, mae'r coleg wedi cael ei ddynodi gan y Llywodraeth, trwy'r Bil addysg drydyddol, i sefydlu'r comisiwn newydd, i gynghori'r comisiwn ar ei ddyletswyddau mewn perthynas â'r Gymraeg. Rydyn ni mewn trafodaethau cychwynnol gyda'r comisiwn ar hynny ar hyn o bryd, a dwi'n credu y bydd y cyllid sy'n cael ei ddarparu gan y Llywodraeth, ochr yn ochr â'r arweiniad strategol y gall y comisiwn a, dwi'n hyderus, y bydd y comisiwn yn ei ddarparu, yn rhoi cyfle i ni wrth symud ymlaen. Felly, dwi'n credu bod y gwahanol gyrff sydd wedi cyflwyno tystiolaeth ar gyfer y sesiwn y bore yma i gyd yn mynegi consérn mewn gwahanol ffyrdd ynglŷn â'r ffaith na fydd y cyllid a amlinellwyd ar gyfer eleni ar gael, a dwi'n credu bod hwnna'n bryder. Ond dwi'n credu mai'r hyn sy'n allweddol yw, pan fydd yr amgylchiadau'n caniatáu, fod yna gyfle i ailedrych ar hyn ac i adfer yr arian i'r gyllideb y flwyddyn nesaf.
Well, I think the good news is that the current level of investment will continue, and that current level of investment—. I referred to some of the new posts that have been created, in all colleges and by all apprenticeship providers. Unfortunately, there will be some plans that were proposed for this year that won't be able to happen. So, the risk is a loss of momentum and a loss of opportunity as a result of that. We have been having discussions with Government officials—in the Welsh language division, and so on—and I'd like to say that the support and the relationship with those officials is excellent, and we understand the challenges that everyone faces. What I think should be warmly welcomed is the commitment that was made in February to look at reprofiling this funding next year. In doing that, that gives us an opportunity to take a step back this year, and we intend to review the strategy, measure the impact of the strategy, and look at where we should focus our efforts as we move forward.
And also, the coleg has been designated by the Government, through the tertiary education Bill, to establish the new commission, to advise the commission on its responsibilities in relation to the Welsh language. We're in initial discussions with the commission on that at the moment, and I think that the funding provided by Government, alongside the strategic lead that the commission can provide and, I'm confident, that the commission will provide, will give us an opportunity in moving forward. So, I do think that the various organisations that have presented evidence for this morning's session are all expressing concerns in different ways about the fact that this funding that was set out for this year won't be available, and I do think that that's a concern. But I think that what's crucial is that, when the circumstances do allow, there is an opportunity to review this and to restore that funding to the budget next year.
Felly, mi fydd yna golli tamaid bach o fomentwm, oni fydd? Mae'n anochel os ydych chi'n cymryd cam yn ôl ac yn asesu ble rydych chi arni, ac yn blaen.
So, there will be a losing of some momentum, won't there? It's inevitable if you're taking a step back and assessing where you are, and so on.
Mae unrhyw golli adnodd yn mynd—. Mae yna fylchau, mae yna—. Maes fel adeiladwaith, er enghraifft—mae hwn yn faes allweddol. Dydyn ni ddim yn mynd i allu buddsoddi fel y bwriadwyd yn y maes yna eleni. Mae hwnna'n faes ble mae llu o ddysgwyr yn meddu ar sgiliau Cymraeg, ac mae e'n faes pwysig i ganolbwyntio arno fe. Felly, ein gobaith ni yw y bydd modd ailymweld â rhai o'r materion yma y flwyddyn nesaf.
Any loss of resource is going to be—. There will be gaps, there will be—. An area such as construction, for example, is a key area. We're not going to be able to invest as we had intended in that area this year. That's an area where there are a large number of learners who do have Welsh language skills, and it's an important area for us to focus on. So, our hope is that we can revisit some of these issues next year.
Ond mi fydd hynny'n golygu bod y trajectory o gyrraedd 'Cymraeg 2050' yn fwy heriol eto, oni fydd?
But that will mean that the trajectory of reaching 'Cymraeg 2050' will be more challenging again, won't it?
Dyna'r risg, a dwi'n credu mai'r risg yn amlwg ydy, oherwydd ein bod ni'n dechrau o fan mor heriol, fod yna gymaint o ffordd i fynd. Felly, yr hyn sydd ei angen yw cynllun a thaflwybr, fel petai, sy'n gosod cerrig milltir ar hyd y ffordd, ond mae unrhyw arafu yn y momentwm yn mynd i wneud y taflwybr yna'n fwy heriol.
That's the risk, and I think that the risk clearly is that, because we are starting from such a challenging place, we have so far to go. So, what we need is a plan and a trajectory, as it were, that sets out milestones for us, but any slowing down of that momentum will make that trajectory more challenging.
Beth, wedyn, am rai o'r heriau ehangach o fewn y sector sy'n cael effaith ar y taflwybr yna mewn ffordd—pethau fel recriwtio a chadw staff, ac yn y blaen? Mae hynny'n cyfrannu at yr her hefyd, onid yw?
What, then, about some of the broader challenges within the sector that have an impact on that trajectory in a way—things such as the recruitment and retention of staff, and so on? That contributes to the challenge as well, doesn't it?
Ydy. Mae diffyg staff yn un o'r heriau traddodiadol, ac mae yna adnoddau ar gael nawr i benodi staff. Mae yna rai heriau ynglŷn â'u recriwtio nhw. Y newyddion da yw, ym mwyafrif llethol yr achosion, fod colegau wedi llwyddo i ddod o hyd i bobl gymwys. Felly, mae'r gwaith o drawsnewid y gweithlu yn allweddol. Mae hefyd i'w groesawu bod y cynlluniau ar gyfer hyfforddi a chymhwyso'r gweithlu addysg bellach wedi cael eu hadolygu yn ddiweddar, a nawr mae yna le i'r Gymraeg oddi mewn i'r strwythyr hyfforddiant yna, wrth symud ymlaen, fel bod unrhyw un sy'n hyfforddi yn cael y Gymraeg yn rhan o'r hyfforddiant yna.
Mae yna heriau eraill hefyd, achos hyd yn oed bod yna addysgwyr sydd yn dymuno defnyddio'r Gymraeg oddi mewn i'w profiadau, a hyd yn oed os oes yna staff, mae yna heriau gyda chymwysterau, yn draddodiadol. Y newyddion da yn fan hyn yw bod adolygiad Sharron Lusher, a gynhaliwyd y llynedd, wedi nodi pwysigrwydd sicrhau bod unrhyw gymwysterau sy'n cael eu datblygu yng Nghymru yn ystyried y Gymraeg, yn cael eu darparu yn llawn ac yn ystyrlon yn y Gymraeg yn ogystal â Saesneg, o'r cychwyn cyntaf. Mae hwnna'n mynd i gymryd amser achos bod yna gymaint o gymwysterau gwahanol, wrth gwrs. Felly, mae yna ystod o heriau.
Yr hyn dwi'n ei groesawu ydy sut mae sefydliadau, colegau—mae Dafydd yma bore yma—ColegauCymru, mae'r penaethiaid wedi ymrwymo i'r agenda yma, a phan fydd y comisiwn newydd yn gofyn am gynlluniau ac yn gosod targedau ar golegau, bydd hwnna'n digwydd mewn cyd-destun lle maen nhw eisoes wedi dod yn rhan fwy ystyrlon o'r cynllunio a'r cydweithio strategol.
Dwi hefyd yn croesawu'r ffaith bod yna bartneriaeth strategol rhwng y coleg a Chymwysterau Cymru; mae yna gyfarfodydd rheolaidd gyda nhw. Cawsom ni ddigwyddiad yn yr Eisteddfod llynedd, gyda'r Gweinidog addysg ar y pryd—ac roedd Dafydd yn rhan o'r digwyddiad yna—i ddangos rhai o'r llwyddiannau, rhai o'r enghreifftiau o beth sydd wedi cael ei gyflawni.
A beth sydd i'w groesawu hefyd yw bod nifer o'r colegau—. Mi oedd pennaeth Coleg Penybont yn defnyddio'r term 'game changer' i ddisgrifio y newidiadau sydd wedi bod yn y blynyddoedd diwethaf o ran dod â'r Gymraeg i mewn i sector lle, yn draddodiadol, Saesneg ydy'r iaith sydd wedi bod yn cael ei defnyddio bron yn gyfan gwbl yn y cyd-destunau hyn, ac mae newid y diwylliant yna, fel roedd Dafydd yn ei ddweud, yn enwedig mewn rhannau o Gymru, yn mynd i fod yn broses heriol ond allweddol, byddwn i'n meddwl, yn y degawdau nesaf, os ydyn ni o ddifrif ynglŷn ag ehangu'r defnydd o'r Gymraeg.
Yes. Staff shortages are one of the traditional challenges faced, and there are resources now available to appoint staff. There are some challenges in terms of recruitment. The good news is that, in the vast majority of cases, colleges have managed to find qualified staff. So, the work of transforming the workforce is crucial. We should also welcome the fact that the programmes for the training and qualification of the FE workforce have been reviewed recently, and there is a place for the Welsh language within those training structures, as we go forward, so that anyone who is training would have the Welsh language as part of that training.
There are other challenges too, because even if the educators who wish to use the Welsh language within their institutions, and even if there are staff available, there are problems with qualifications, traditionally. The good news here is that the Sharron Lusher review that was held last year has set out the importance of ensuring that any qualifications that are developed in Wales should take account of the Welsh language, and should be provided fully and meaningfully through the medium of the Welsh as well as English, from the very outset. Now, that's going to take time, because there are so many different qualifications out there. So, there is a range of challenges.
What I welcome is how institutions, colleges—Dafydd's here this morning—ColegauCymru, the senior officials there are committed to this agenda, and when the new commission does ask for plans and will set targets for colleges, that will happen in a context where they have already become a more meaningful part of that forward planning and strategic collaboration.
I also welcome the fact that there is a strategic partnership between the coleg and Qualifications Wales; there are regular meetings with them. We held an event at the Eisteddfod last year, with the then education Minister—and Dafydd was involved in that event—to set out some of the successes and some examples of what has been delivered.
And what's also to be welcomed is that many of the colleges—. The head of Bridgend College described the changes that have taken place in recent years as 'game changers' in terms of bringing the Welsh language into a sector where, traditionally, English has been the lingua franca in these contexts, and that change of culture, as Dafydd said, particularly in some parts of Wales, is going to be a challenging process, but a crucial process, I would say, over the next decades, if we are serious about expanding the use of the Welsh language.
So, jest i grynhoi—dwi'n siŵr efallai bydd Dafydd a Lisa eisiau ychwanegu rhywbeth, ond jest cyn dod atyn nhw, efallai—rŷch chi'n rhagweld, er enghraifft, yng nghyd-destun gosod targedau ar golegau ac yn y blaen, parhau i weld cynnydd, ond ddim i'r graddau efallai fyddech chi wedi'i obeithio, petai yr adnoddau a fwriadwyd ar gael.
So, just to summarise—I'm sure Dafydd and Lisa would like to add something, but before coming to them, perhaps—you foresee, for example, in the context of setting targets for colleges and so forth, a continuation of progress, but perhaps not to the extent that you would have hoped, if the intended resources had been available.
Buaswn i'n mawr obeithio mai blwyddyn yn unig—. Nawr, mae modd, os taw blwyddyn yn unig sydd dan sylw, mae modd adfer unrhyw dir y mae risg o'i golli yn fanna. Ond byddai arafu sylweddol a thynnu nôl ar y buddsoddi yn y sectorau penodol hyn yn gamgymeriad, dwi'n meddwl, os ydyn ni o ddifrif ynglŷn ag ehangu'r defnydd o'r Gymraeg.
Ond mae nifer o bethau eraill sy'n digwydd, gan gynnwys sefydlu'r comisiwn, a'r cyfle sydd gan y comisiwn yn ei gynllun strategol i osod y Gymraeg yn ganolog fel rhan o'r weledigaeth genedlaethol, yn golygu wedyn, hyd yn oed os oes yna heriau cyllidol o dro i dro, byddai'r Gymraeg fel popeth arall rŷm ni'n eu hysytyried yn allweddol, fel cydraddoldeb, fel amrywiaeth, fel ymrwymiad i barchu'r amgylchedd ac yn y blaen. Mae'r rhain yn bethau ŷn ni'n glynu atyn nhw, beth bynnag ydy'r heriau cyllidebol sydd o'n cwmpas ni.
I would very much hope that we would only be facing this for a year. If it is only a year that we're talking about, then we can regain any ground that is at risk of being lost there. But any significant slowdown or withdrawal of investment in these particular sectors would be a mistake, I think, if we are serious about expanding the use of the Welsh language.
But there are a number of other things that are happening, including the establishment of the commission, and the opportunity that the commission has in its strategic plan to put the Welsh language at the heart of its national vision, that mean then, even if there are budgetary challenges from time to time, the Welsh language would be like everything else that we consider to be crucial, such as diversity and equality, and the commitment to respect the environment and so on. These are things that we adhere to, whatever budgetary challenges that we face.
Mae'n ddrwg gyda fi, Gadeirydd, dwi'n licio siarad am arian. [Chwerthin.] Hynny yw, ydych chi wedi cael unrhyw sicrwydd neu unrhyw negeseuon gan Weinidog, y Llywodraeth, weision sifil neu beth bynnag fod yr ailflaenoriaethu sydd wedi digwydd eleni yn mynd i gael eu hadflaenoriaethu'r flwyddyn nesaf? Hynny yw, bod—. Achos mae yna beryg, a dwi wedi gweld hyn yn digwydd yn y gorffennol, lle mae yna ailflaenoriaethu’n digwydd, dyna'r baseline wedyn, yn symud ymlaen. Oes yna unrhyw ddealltwriaeth y byddwch chi'n cael—a bod amgylchiadau yn caniatáu?
Apologies, Chair, I like to talk about money. [Laughter.] So, have you had any assurances or messages from a Minister, the Government, civil servants or whoever that the reprioritisation that's happened this year is going to be reprioritised next year? Because there is a danger, and I've seen this happening in the past, that when reprioritisation happens, that's where the baseline is in moving forward. Is there any understanding that you will have—if circumstances allow?
Mae yna ymrwymiad ysgrifenedig i ailbroffilio. Ein dealltwriaeth ni yw y bydd hynny yn digwydd ar gyfer y flwyddyn nesaf.
There is a written commitment to reprofile. Our understanding is that that will happen for next year.
Diolch, ocê. Ymddiheuriadau i Dafydd a Lisa, dwi'n meddwl eu bod nhw, efallai, eisiau dod i mewn nawr.
Thank you. Apologies to Dafydd and Lisa, I think they might want to come in now.
Reit, mi wnaf i fynd at—. Lisa, oeddech chi eisiau dod i mewn nawr? Achos dwi ddim eisiau dod yn ôl atoch chi bob tro. Mi wnaf i fynd at Lisa yn gyntaf, os ydy hynny'n ocê, Dafydd, ac wedyn mi wnaf i ddod yn ôl atoch chi.
Right, I'll go to—. Lisa, did you want to come in now? Because I don't want to come back to you every time. I'll go to Lisa first, if that's okay, Dafydd, and then I'll come back to you.
No, no, it's okay. Yes, thanks, Delyth. Inevitably, continuity is of paramount importance for us all and, inevitably, there will be some peaks and troughs as we deal with the budgets that we are served. You know that I lobbied heavily regarding the apprenticeship budget and that cut. Fortunately, it wasn't what we thought initially, but it was still a cut, and that does impact on resources, it does impact on staff training, staff recruitment, et cetera, so then that does have that dotted line to what we can do with the learners that we have, with the resources that we need. So, I think Ioan has expressed it all, and certainly he’s expressed it on our behalf as well, so I won't add anything else to it, but just to give reassurance that, whilst it is difficult, we always endeavour to still maintain the services and the provision to learners as much as possible.
Diolch, Lisa. Dafydd.
Thank you, Lisa. Dafydd.
Roeddwn i eisiau pigo i fyny ar yr agwedd gododd Llyr o recriwtio staff. Dwi yn credu, os ydyn ni'n mynd i gyrraedd y targedau heriol sydd o’n blaenau ni, mai cael y gweithlu cywir fydd y peth allweddol, a'r gweithlu efo’r sgiliau iaith priodol. Ac, ar hyn o bryd, dwi ddim yn teimlo bod yna strategaeth genedlaethol i greu gweithlu dysgu dwyieithog ar draws yr holl sectorau dysgu, nid jest y colegau, ond yr ysgolion hefyd. A dwi'n meddwl dylid gosod honno’n her i'r Llywodraeth yn llawer iawn cliriach os ydyn ni'n mynd i gyrraedd y targed. Mae yna broblem fawr. Rydyn ni'n cael problem ddifrifol mewn recriwtio staff dwyieithog, yn enwedig mewn meysydd fel gwyddoniaeth a pheirianneg a'r cymwysterau technegol yna, oherwydd dydy'r cyflogau ddim yn denu, i ddechrau, pobl o unrhyw iaith i mewn i ddysgu, mewn ffyrdd, ond mae'n anoddach fyth os ydych chi’n gofyn am bobl ddwyieithog hefyd. Felly, dwi'n meddwl bod hynny wirioneddol yn her.
A'r ail bwynt roeddwn i eisiau pigo i fyny oedd ar adroddiad Sharron Lusher. Roeddwn innau hefyd yn croesawu, ac roedd ColegauCymru’n croesawu, adroddiad Sharron, yn dangos bod angen cymwysterau oedd wedi eu teilwra ar gyfer Cymru. Fodd bynnag, fyddwn i ddim yn dweud fy mod i wedi gweld camau breision yn cael eu cymryd ers cyhoeddi’r adroddiad yna bron i flwyddyn yn ôl i symud i lawr y llwybr yna. Dwi'n deall, fel mae Ioan yn ei ddweud, ei bod hi hwyrach yn broses hir, ond mae angen cychwyn arni hi dipyn yn gynt nag ydyn ni'n ei wneud ar hyn o bryd.
I wanted to pick up on something that Llyr touched on, in term of the recruitment of staff. I do think, if we're to reach the challenging targets facing us, that having the right workforce in place will be key, and the workforce with the appropriate language skills. At the moment, I don't feel that there is a national strategy to create a bilingual teaching workforce across all sectors, not just the colleges, but schools as well. And I think that should be set as a challenge for the Government, and it should be a clearer one if we're going to reach the target. There's a massive problem. We have a serious problem in recruiting bilingual staff, particularly in fields such as science and engineering and those technical qualifications, because the salaries aren't attractive in the first place, and they don't attract people from any language into teaching. But if you ask for bilingual staff, that's even more difficult. So, I think that is really a challenge.
The second point I wanted to pick up was on Sharron Lusher's report. I also welcomed, and CollegesWales welcomed, Sharron Lusher's report, showing that qualifications are required that are tailored to Wales. However, I wouldn't say that I've seen great steps being taken since the publication of that report nearly a year ago to move along that path. I understand, as Ioan said, that it's perhaps a long process, but there is a need to start that process much sooner than we have at the moment.
Diolch, Dafydd. Ocê, mi wnawn ni symud ymlaen at Tom.
Thank you, Dafydd. We'll move on to Tom.
Diolch yn fawr. We've spoken about the change in culture, I suppose, in terms of the cultural demand for the service provided here. But I'm curious about the provision, I guess, tying off the back of Llyr's question. Where you see that increase in demand, are you seeing that provision increase with it? Is one being outstripped by the other?
Dwi'n credu bod y strategaeth a'r cynllun gweithredu—. Mae yna nifer o bileri, fel rŷn ni'n eu disgrifio nhw, ar gyfer hyn, ac mae angen mynd i'r afael â’r heriau yma i gyd, mewn gwirionedd. Felly, mae angen creu'r ddarpariaeth. Mae angen, fel sydd wedi cael ei ddweud, creu'r capasiti i gynnig y ddarpariaeth, a hefyd mae angen y cymwysterau yna i fod ar gael yn y Gymraeg, fel roedd Dafydd yn ei ddweud. Felly, yr her ydy sicrhau bod yr holl ffactorau hyn, yr holl elfennau hyn, yn cyd-ddatblygu. A dwi'n credu bod angen nodi, yn enwedig yn y de-ddwyrain, fod y niferoedd a'r gynulleidfa ar gyfer y ddarpariaeth yn parhau yn gymharol isel, ac mae angen i ni fod yn realistig o ran beth sy'n bosib ei gyflawni mewn rhai ardaloedd yn y tymor byr i ganolig.
Ond, fe gyfeiriwyd at y gweithlu addysg yn ei gyfanrwydd ac, wrth gwrs, mae'r Bil addysg Gymraeg arfaethedig, fydd yn cael ei gyflwyno nawr yn yr haf, yn edrych i drawsnewid yr hyn sy'n cael ei gynnig yn yr ysgolion. A dwi'n credu, a bwrw bod y weledigaeth yna yn cael ei gwireddu, a bod mwy o bobl ifanc yn cyrraedd 16 gyda sgiliau ystyrlon dwyieithog yn y ddwy iaith, yna mae angen, ble bynnag mae'r dysgwyr yna'n mynd wedyn, boed yn aros yn y chweched dosbarth, boed yn mynd i fyd gwaith, boed yn mynd, yn fwy pwysig, i golegau a darparwyr prentisiaethau i ddilyn hyfforddiant galwedigaethol, i'r cyfleoedd fod ar gael ar eu cyfer nhw. Felly, rŷn ni'n adeiladu ar gyfer dyfodol sydd yn cael ei siapio mewn ffordd gan newidiadau yn y sector ysgolion a all ddeillio o'r Bil addysg Gymraeg—ac mae heriau capasiti'r gweithlu i wireddu'r amcanion yna hefyd—ond beth rŷn ni'n ei wneud ar bob lefel fan hyn yw paratoi ar gyfer cyfnod, wrth agosáu at 2050, pan fydd yna fwy o alw am sgiliau Cymraeg, a mwy o gynulleidfa ar gyfer y ddarpariaeth reit ar draws y sector ôl-16.
I think the strategy and the action plan—. There are a number of pillars, as we would describe them, for this, and we need to tackle all of these challenges, if truth be told. So, we need to create provision and, as has already been said, we need to generate the capacity to provide that, and we also need the qualifications in place and available through the medium of Welsh, as Dafydd said. So, the challenge is ensuring that all of these factors, all of these elements, develop alongside each other. And I do think we should note, particularly in the south-east of Wales, that the numbers and the possible audience for the provision remains relatively low, and we need to be realistic about what can be delivered in certain areas in the short-to-medium term.
But reference was made to the education workforce more generally and, of course, the proposed Welsh language education Bill, which is to be introduced in the summer, does look to transform what is offered in our schools. And I believe, assuming that that vision is delivered, and that more young people get to the age of 16 with meaningful skills in both languages, then there's a need, wherever those learners go then, whether they remain in sixth form, or if they go into the workforce, or, more importantly, if they go to colleges or to apprenticeship providers to take up vocational training, for those opportunities to be available for them. So, we are building for a future that is being moulded in a way by changes in the school sector that could emerge from the Welsh language education Bill—and there are workforce challenges in delivering those objectives too—but what we're doing at every level here is preparing for a period, as we approach 2050, when there will be more demand for Welsh language skills, and more of an audience for that provision right across the post-16 sector.
Ocê, diolch. Oes unrhyw un arall eisiau dod mewn?
Okay, thanks. Does anybody else want to come in?
Ie, oes unrhyw un arall eisiau dod mewn ar hwnna? Dafydd.
Yes, does anybody else want to come in on that? Dafydd.
Ie, hwyrach jest i ymateb i'r cwestiwn ar supply a demand. Dwi'n meddwl bod yn rhaid cael elfen o onestrwydd yn fan yma, yn nhermau dweud nad ydy pobl ifanc yn gyffredinol yn cnocio ar y drws yn gweiddi am addysg Gymraeg a dwyieithog. Gorfod annog a pherswadio pobl ifanc ydyn ni i ymgymryd ag addysg ddwyieithog. Dyna ydy realiti’r sefyllfa ar y ddaear, felly mae'n rhaid i ni fod yn onest ynglŷn â hynny. A dwi'n meddwl bod gennym ni i gyd rôl mewn ffordd o ran gwneud y gwaith hyrwyddo yna, ac i'w cefnogi nhw i weld y cyfle fel un positif. Felly, dwi'n meddwl ein bod ni'n gorfod creu'r demand, nid disgwyl amdano fo. Dyna beth fyddwn i'n ei ddweud.
Yes, perhaps just to respond to the question on supply and demand. I think you have to have an element of honesty here, in terms of saying that young people in general aren't knocking at the door shouting out for Welsh-medium education and bilingual education. We have to encourage and persuade young people to take up bilingual education. That's the reality of the situation at grass-roots level, and we have to be honest about that. And I think that we all have a role in a way in doing this promotional work, and to support them to see the opportunity as a positive one. So, I think we have to create the demand, not wait for it. That's what I would say in this context.
Did Lisa want to add anything?
Lisa, did you want to add anything?
Just agreeing, really, with what Dafydd just said. When we've actually done some analysis, speaking to our learners that are coming into our provision after transitioning from schools, even those that are Welsh speakers sometimes want to utilise English language skills. So, it's finding that balance. But what, again, we have done with the coleg is flip that to say, 'Well, actually, you've got a niche skill here by being able to speak Welsh, and how you can utilise that, and how that can help you then in your career prospects as well as you move forward.' So, that's what we've done is really flip it, and try to reiterate to a young person that it is such an advantage to them, or for others, and, certainly, with how we're looking to grow in Wales as well and have more Welsh language opportunities for people for their careers and the economy moving forward.
So, that's what we've done, but, yes, Dafydd is right, I think we have to have a sense of honesty as well, but certainly keeping that momentum going forward.
Os caf i ychwanegu, rwy'n cytuno'n llwyr fod angen i ni fod yn realistig am lle ŷn ni nawr, wrth gwrs, ac mae'r heriau yna yn sylweddol iawn, ac mae yna waith mawr i'w wneud i newid y diwylliant ac i ddylanwadu. Ac mae honna'n her i ni gyd mewn gwirionedd. Mae hefyd yn her i'r Llywodraeth, onid ydy, fel rhan o'r weledigaeth i ehangu defnydd. Mae yna bethau all gael eu gwneud yn strwythurol o ran y cyfleoedd, ond mae'r her o greu y galw am y cyfleoedd yna yn un sy'n perthyn i bawb sydd â chonsérn am Gymru ddwyieithog fel rhan o'u gweledigaeth.
If I could add, I agree entirely that we need to be realistic about where we are now—of course we do—and those challenges are very significant, and there is a great deal of work to do in changing that culture and to influence. But that's a challenge for us all. It's also a challenge for Government, isn't it, as part of the vision to expand the use of the Welsh language. There are things that can be done structurally in terms of opportunities, but the challenge of generating the demand for those opportunities is a challenge for everyone who is concerned about a bilingual Wales as part of that vision.
It's a really interesting discussion, which I'm trying not to drill down too much into, but I'm interested in what you said earlier about Bridgend College, obviously in my region. I imagine that that sales pitch, if you like, of wanting to do those courses and that provision in Welsh is probably a bit different to somewhere where Dafydd would operate—
Ie.
Yes.
—and it's about understanding, I suppose, the nuance of that. How can we better reflect that, then, in how that then drives demand, because their offer is going to be very different, I imagine, in both areas?
Byddwn i'n rhagweld taw un ffordd y gallai hwn ddatblygu yn y pum i 10 mlynedd nesaf yw bod yna gynllun strategol cenedlaethol yn cael ei ddatblygu dan adain y comisiwn, ac mi fyddai'r coleg yn croesawu'r cyfle i fod yn rhan ganolog o gynllun o'r fath. A bwrw bod yna gynllun o'r fath, mi fyddai yna ddisgwyliad wedyn ar unrhyw ddarparwyr sydd yn cael eu cefnogi gan y comisiwn i chwarae rhan yn y cynllun hwnnw. Byddai'r rhan y mae'r gwahanol sefydliadau yn ei chwarae yn amrywio'n fawr ac yn dibynnu, fel rŷch chi'n awgrymu, ar eu lleoliad daearyddol, ac ar yr hyn sydd ganddyn nhw i weithio gyda nhw o ran dysgwyr, o ran staff ac yn y blaen.
Ond yr hyn rwy'n credu sydd yn bwysig yw bod gan bob sefydliad a phob rhan o Gymru gyfle i gyfrannu at rai o'r datblygiadau hyn. Mae yna ddatblygiadau diddorol yng Ngholeg Gwent, er enghraifft, na fyddai pawb, efallai, Gadeirydd, yn ystyried. Ond mae yna ddarpariaeth wedi cael ei ddatblygu ym mhob rhan o Gymru yn barod fel rhan o'r cynllun yma. Ond i bwysleisio eto a chydnabod yr hyn mae'r comisiynydd yn ei ddweud, mi ydym ni ar bwynt cynnar iawn, ond fedrwn ni ddim dod i farn bod y math o ddarpariaeth sy'n cael ei gynnal gan golegau yn rhywbeth dylid ei adael i gael ei gynnig yn bennaf drwy'r Saesneg yn unig, oherwydd mae e mor allweddol, fel dywedais i ar y dechrau, yn gymunedol, fod y dysgwyr yn cael y cyfle, a hefyd, fel roedd Dafydd yn dweud, yn cael eu hannog hefyd dros amser, wrth inni geisio newid diwylliant. Rwy'n credu bod hwnna yn her inni i gyd.
I would anticipate that one way in which this could develop over the next five to 10 years is that there would be a national strategic plan developed under the auspices of the commission, and the coleg would welcome the opportunity to play a central role in such a plan. And given that such a plan could be developed, there would be an expectation on any providers supported by the commission to play their part in that strategic plan. The part played by the various institutions would vary greatly and would depend, as you suggest, on geographical location and on what they have to work with in terms of learners and staff and so on.
But what I think is important is that every organisation in every part of Wales should have an opportunity to contribute to some of these developments. There are interesting developments in Coleg Gwent, for example, that not everyone, Chair, would consider to be likely. But provision has been developed in all parts of Wales already as part of this plan. But I would want to emphasise once again, and to recognise what the commissioner has said, that we are at a very early stage, but we cannot come to the view that the kind of provision made by colleges is something that should be left for the English language only, because it's so crucial, as I said at the outset, on a community level, that the learners have an opportunity, and also, as Dafydd said, are encouraged over time as we try and generate that culture shift. I think that's a challenge for us all.
Diolch yn fawr. Maybe I used the wrong word, 'demand', in the first question, because I think the discussion has shown that is probably not the right way to look at it. But in terms of measuring that—for want of a better word—demand, or unmet demand, what analysis is undertaken to understand where provision is and where it could be and where there might be a need to further it?
Mae hwn yn dod â ni nôl at y data eto, a'r angen am edrych yn ofalus ar lle rŷn ni a beth yw natur ein cynulleidfa ni, fod yna cefnogi dysgwyr wrth iddyn nhw symud drwy'r sectorau. Mi oedd Dafydd yn sôn am y cyfnod trosiannol yna—sicrhau ein bod ni'n gwybod pwy yw'r dysgwyr sy'n meddu ar sgiliau Cymraeg. Roeddwn i'n cyfeirio nôl at y data sy'n amlwg yn anghywir ynglŷn â Choleg Sir Gâr. Gall hwnna ddim bod yn gywir. Ond dydy'r prosesau presennol—. Roedd Dafydd yn sôn am ddiffyg hyder. Rŷm ni'n dibynnu weithiau ar ddysgwyr i hunanasesu pa sgiliau sydd ganddyn nhw, ac mae hwnna wastad yn risg. Ac ar hyn o bryd, mae'r diwylliant, i fod yn onest—. Mae pob math o ddylanwadau yn gyrru dysgwyr, efallai, i ddweud nad oes ganddyn nhw sgiliau Cymraeg, neu mai bach iawn yw eu sgiliau nhw, hyd yn oed weithiau os ydyn nhw wedi bod mewn addysg Gymraeg am flynyddoedd. Felly, mae angen edrych ar rai o'r materion hyn fel cefnlen, i ddweud y gwir, i'r cynllunio a'r buddsoddi mae'r coleg a sefydliadau eraill yn ei wneud fel rhan o'r cynllun.
This brings us back to the data again, and the need to look very carefully at where we are, at what is the nature of our audience, that there is support for learners as they move through the sectors. Dafydd mentioned that transition period. We need to ensure that we know who the learners are who have Welsh language skills. We were referring there to the inaccurate data from Coleg Sir Gâr. That can't be correct. But the current processes—. Dafydd was talking about lack of confidence. We rely sometimes on learners themselves to assess what skills they have, and that is always a risk. And at the moment, the culture, to be honest—. There are so many different influences driving students to say they don't have skills or that they have few skills, sometimes even when they've been in Welsh-medium education for years. So, there is a need to look at some of these issues as a backdrop, really, to the planning and the investment that the coleg and other organisations are doing as part of the plan.
Mae hwnna'n ddiddorol o ran yr inferiority complex sydd gan gymaint o bobl ynglŷn â'u sgiliau iaith Gymraeg nhw eu hunain. Does dim amser nawr, rwy'n gwybod, inni fynd i mewn i hwnna, ond byddai gen i ddiddordeb mewn gwybod sut mae hynna yn cymharu gyda gwledydd eraill. Dafydd, rwy'n meddwl roeddech chi eisiau dod i mewn ar hyn.
That's interesting in terms of the inferiority complex that so many people have about their own Welsh language skills. We don't have time to get into that now, but I would be interested to know how that compares with other nations. Dafydd, I think you wanted to come in at this point.
Bron iawn union yr un peth. Un o'r pethau rydyn ni wedi bod yn defnyddio cyllid y coleg Cymraeg tuag ato ydy i symud staff fyddai yn berffaith fodlon cael sgwrs efo fi yn y coridor yn Gymraeg, ond yn amharod iawn i fod yn defnyddio'r iaith yn y dosbarth a ddim efo'r hyder i'w wneud o yn y dosbarth. Felly, mae hynny wedi bod yn help mawr i ni gael mwy o staff oedd efo'r sgiliau, a dweud y gwir, i ddysgu drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg, ond i gael yr hyder i wneud hynny. Mae hynny wedi ein galluogi ni i ledaenu y cynnig sydd gennym ni, beth bynnag. Ond hwyrach ein bod ni'n ffodus yn ein hardal ni bod gennym ni'r math yna o bobl yn ein hardal sydd ddim ar gael, wrth gwrs, hwyrach, yn y de-ddwyrain yn yr un modd.
I was going to say exactly the same thing. One of the things that we've been using the funding of the coleg Cymraeg for is to move staff who would be more than happy to have a conversation with me in Welsh in the corridor but would be unwilling to use the Welsh language in the classroom and wouldn't have the confidence to do that in the classroom. So, that's been of great assistance to us in getting more staff who had the skills to teach through the Welsh language but didn't have the confidence to do so, and that's enabled us to actually enhance the offer that we have. But perhaps we're fortunate in our area that we do have those kinds of people already that perhaps aren't available in the same way in the south-east of Wales, perhaps.
It's a very similar picture for us as well. I think it is that encouragement for staff to use their Welsh language skills. As Dafydd said, you come across staff who will do it verbally and you'll be able to have conversations—even myself—and have those incidental Welsh conversations as well, but when it comes to the written element of it, the assessment of it et cetera, you find that they do take a step back and it's the encouragement that they need. With Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol over the years, though, what we've had is a resource where you're able to assess your own skills and then have the support followed through from that following the assessment.
If I can very quickly just go back and touch on data, that is vitally important. At the moment, we rely on our lifelong learning Wales record data, which really just captures if a learner is a Welsh speaker and to what sort of level they feel they're competent at. But we need to delve down more, really, to understand those learners coming in so we can understand what their needs are. We do various different assessments and we do talk to them about it, but it's encouraging that ongoing as well. So, I think data, as Ioan has already said, and Dafydd as well, is vitally important in order for us to actually evaluate impact and, then, move forward to address the needs.
Picking up on that final point you made there Lisa, which I think is important, where you've got that data around people who speak Welsh coming on to do a course, are you able to drill down into where you might have a Welsh speaker who might be doing a course in English that might be available in Welsh and what the reason is as to why they've chosen to do that course through the medium of English?
Yes, basically, we do, because it's also an aspect of what we need to undertake for our Estyn inspections as well. So, it's really that initial onboarding with the learner, talking to them about their own particular needs and skills and then trying to develop that as well. However, going back to Dafydd's honest conversation, we have had learners who have said to us, 'Well, actually, I'm in a mainly English-speaking environment, I want to utilise and develop my English language skills'. So, you're trying to find that balance. It's what I said earlier about trying to flip it and say, 'Well, actually, you've got an advantage, and in the workplace we can talk to your employer about you actually encouraging others to use incidental Welsh'. So, it's really thinking about all of those and how we can then bring that together. And it's finding a balance. What does help is, as I mentioned earlier, we have Prentis-iaith, which we now upload onto all our e-portfolios for all our learners, even English-speaking learners, to really begin that assessment from very basic needs through to somebody who is a proficient Welsh speaker, and, then, utilising that throughout their portfolio, throughout their qualification, so there's always elements of the Welsh language in it. But as Ioan and Dafydd have said, there still is a lot more work to be done to get somebody to really utilise it and use it throughout their apprenticeship.
Chair, just really quickly—apologies time-wise—one of the primary reasons you're finding that people are perhaps doing a course in English that they could otherwise do in Welsh is that—what did you say—the kind of culture of living in a more English-language environment. Are there other primary reasons you're finding?
It is one of the reasons, and I think that's where, just as a nation, as a Government, as a Welsh Language Commissioner, we need to promote this more going forward, because we do see it more. A colleague was saying in the room about having Welsh words around their kitchen and things like that; that's what it's like in my house as well. I've got two children who do speak Welsh, so I'm doing my best as well. But we need to grow that in the workplace as well, and we do. I know the centre for learning Welsh and things like that do help and we do see it. I actually live in Merthyr Tydfil, I see it through Soar here, and menter iaith and things like that that we have as well. It is being encouraged, we just need to continue that and grow it. It goes back to that continuity that we mentioned earlier. If there is an impact on funding for whatever area, then it's not going to help us; we need it to support us in order to grow it in all aspects: work, life and school.
Jest yn sydyn iawn, mae yna un peth y gallwn ni ei wneud i fynd i'r afael â rhai o'r heriau yma, sef bod pob dysgwr yn cael y cyfle diofyn, os oes ganddyn nhw sgiliau Cymraeg, i ymgymryd â rhan o'u cymhwyster trwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg. Er mwyn gwneud hwnna, mae'n rhaid inni wybod pwy yw'r dysgwyr, ac wedyn, os ydyn nhw'n dewis peidio, wel, mae hwnna'n her wahanol. Ond ar hyn o bryd, dwi ddim yn sicr bod gyda ni'r strwythur i adnabod y dysgwyr ac i roi'r hyder a'r cyfle iddyn nhw—y cynnig diofyn fel rŷn ni yn ei alw e—ac i gymryd yn ganiataol, os oes gan rywun sgiliau Cymraeg, y byddan nhw'n dymuno defnyddio’r sgiliau yna o leiaf yn rhannol wrth ddilyn eu cymhwyster. Ac mae hwnna'n un o’r pethau, dwi'n meddwl, a allai fod yn rhan o gynllun cenedlaethol y byddai'r comisiwn yn ei gyflwyno. Yr her wedyn, wrth gwrs, yw sicrhau bod cymaint â phosib o'r dysgwyr yna yn cymryd y cyfle yna. Ond ar hyn o bryd, rŷn ni'n disgwyl i ddysgwyr efallai i fynd i chwilio am y cyfle yma yn hytrach na’i fod e'n cael ei gynnig iddyn nhw yn ddiofyn.
Just very briefly, there's one thing that we can do to address some of these challenges, which is that every learner has a default opportunity, if they have Welsh language skills, to undertake part of their qualification through the medium of Welsh. In order to do that, we need to know who the learner is, and then, if they choose not to, well, that's a different challenge. But at the moment, I'm not sure that we have the structure to identify the learners and to give them the confidence and the opportunity—that default offer as we call it—and to assume that, if somebody has Welsh language skills, they wish to use those skills as part of their qualification. That is one of the things, I think, that could be part of the national plan that the commission will introduce. The challenge then, of course, is to ensure that as many learners as possible take up that opportunity. But at the moment, we expect learners perhaps to go and look for this opportunity rather than it being offered to them as a default position.
Diolch am hynna. Dwi'n gwybod fod Dafydd eisiau dod i mewn ar hyn hefyd. Os yw'n ocê, byddwn ni'n rhedeg drosodd rhyw bum munud, felly ydy pawb yn ocê inni fyd tan 10:35 yn hytrach na gorffen am 10:30? Ydy hwnna'n ocê? Roedd Dafydd eisiau ychwanegu rhywbeth.
Thanks for that. I know Dafydd wants to come on this as well. If it's okay with you, we're going to run over about five minutes, so is everybody okay for us to go to 10:35 rather than finishing at 10:30? Is that okay? Dafydd wanted to add something.
Yn fyr, Gadeirydd, rydym ni wedi cynnal grwpiau ffocws efo myfyrwyr, gan ofyn iddyn nhw, 'Pam ydych chi wedi cymryd y dewis yma? Pam dydych chi ddim wedi cymryd y dewis Cymraeg?' Ac yn ychwanegol at beth sydd wedi cael ei ddweud yn barod, un o’r pethau sy’n dod i fyny yn rheolaidd ydy nad oes yna ddim adnoddau dysgu digon da a bod y wybodaeth sydd ar y we i gyd trwy gyfrwng y Saesneg yn hytrach nag yn Gymraeg. Ac felly, mae’r diffyg adnoddau yna'n cael ei weld yn rhywbeth pwysig iawn.
Mae hynny'n mynd â mi yn ôl at adroddiad Sharron Lusher o ran cael cymwysterau ac adnoddau sydd wedi cael eu gwneud i Gymru mewn lle, oherwydd dydyn nhw ddim ar hyn o bryd. A hefyd ein bod ni'n edrych ar sut mae technoleg rŵan yn datblygu, oherwydd beth mae artificial intelligence yn ei gynnig inni, er enghraifft, o ran ymateb i hyn i gyd. Hwyrach bod yna gyfle gwych yn fanna. Dwi'n siŵr, mewn 10 mlynedd, mai nid fel hyn fyddwn ni'n cynnal y cyfarfod yma, ond byddwn ni'n holograms o gwmpas y bwrdd yma, yn hytrach nag ar y sgrin. Dyna fyddwn i'n ei ragweld. Ac felly pam na all athro cyfrwng Cymraeg fod yn defnyddio'r dechnoleg yna i fod yn gweithredu'n ehangach yn ddaearyddol gan ddefnyddio'r dechnoleg? Dwi'n meddwl fod gan dechnoleg rhan fawr i'w chwarae a rhaid inni ymchwilio i mewn i'r maes yna.
Just briefly, Chair, we have held some focus groups with students, asking them, 'Why did you make this particular choice? Why didn't you choose the Welsh language option?' In addition to what has been said already, one of the things that comes up regularly is that there are inadequate teaching resources available and that the information online is available through the medium of English rather than Welsh. So, that lack of resource is seen as a very important factor.
That brings me back to the Sharron Lusher report in terms of having made-for-Wales qualifications and resources, because, currently, they're not in place. And also that we look at how technology now is developing, because of what artificial intelligence offers us in terms of responding to all of this. There may be an excellent opportunity there. I'm sure, in 10 years' time, we won't be holding this meeting in this format. We might be holograms around the table, rather than appearing on screen. That's what I would anticipate, and therefore, why shouldn't a Welsh-speaking educator be using technology to expand on a geographical basis? So, I think technology has a great part to play and I think we need to look into that.
[Inaudible.]—holograms in it.
Fe wnawn ni symud ymlaen at Hefin.
We'll move on to Hefin.
Diolch, Gadeirydd. Gaf i ofyn i Ioan am berthynas y coleg Cymraeg â CTER a sut yn union y bydd yn defnyddio ei influence i genfogi'r Gymraeg? A pha sgyrsiau anffurfiol sydd wedi bod gyda Julie Lydon a Simon Pirotte?
Thank you, Chair. May I ask Ioan about the relationship between the coleg Cymraeg and CTER and how exactly it will use its influence to support the Welsh language? And what informal discussions have there been with Julie Lydon and Simon Pirotte?
Dwi wedi bod yn cael trafodaethau anffurfiol gyda Simon Pirotte ers dros flwyddyn erbyn hyn, ers iddo gael ei benodi i’r rôl, neu bron blwyddyn erbyn hyn, ac mi ddaeth Simon i gyfarfod bwrdd y coleg Cymraeg ym Mangor yr wythnos cyn y Pasg. Felly, rŷn ni yn sicr yn croesawu’r dynodiad a’r cyfle i gynghori, ac rŷn ni yn y broses o drafod gyda’r comisiwn sut y bydd y cyngor yna'n cael ei ddarparu.
Rŷn ni yn y broses o gytuno memorandwm cyd-ddealltwriaeth rhwng y coleg a’r comisiwn, a’r bwriad sydd gennym ni wedyn, a'r hyn a drafodwyd yn ein bwrdd ni, yw y byddwn ni'n cynnig cyflwyno cyngor cychwynnol ar wahanol flaenoriaethau sydd wedi cael eu hadnabod yn natganiad y Gweinidog blaenorol o ran blaenoriaethau’r comisiwn. Byddwn yn darparu cyngor cychwynnol ar hynny yn yr hydref. Ond rŷn ni'n gweld y berthynas yma yn un ddeinamig, yn un allweddol, a fydd yn esblygu wrth i amser fynd rhagddo.
Byddwn ni hefyd yn defnyddio’r dynodiad i drafod gyda phartneriaid sut y bydd y cyngor uchelgeisiol y byddwn yn ei gyflwyno—. Achos mi fyddwn ni ddim yn naïf ac yn afrealistig, ond yn uchelgeisiol o ran beth sydd angen ei wneud. Mae'n rhaid dweud bod y drafodaeth gawsom ni gyda Simon—. Dŷn ni'n edrych ymlaen hefyd i gael trafodaethau gydag aelodau bwrdd y comisiwn pan fydd y bwrdd wedi dod yn llawn weithredol yn yr hydref, ond mae'r trafodaethau wedi canolbwyntio ar y ffaith bod yna gyfle i drawsnewid y sefyllfa gydag amser ac i roi'r Gymraeg mewn man llawer mwy canolog. A fanna mae'r cyfle, dwi'n credu; dyna fel mae'r coleg yn gweld y sefyllfa, sef bod yna gyfle i'r comisiwn newydd fel rheoleiddiwr i bwysleisio wrth ddarparwyr bod y Gymraeg yn elfen lle mae disgwyl iddyn nhw ymgyrraedd o ddifrif tuag at dargedau fydd yn cael eu gosod. A dyna'r her inni i gyd, yntefe, yw i symud o sefyllfa lle efallai dyw'r Gymraeg ddim wedi cael y statws yna. Ac mae'r un peth yn wir am y sector addysg bellach, sector prentisiaethau, y sector addysg uwch, a hefyd y ddarpariaeth chweched dosbarth, sy'n rhan o'r darlun, ac mae'r cydweithio rhwng y gwahanol sectorau hyn hefyd yn mynd i fod yn allweddol.
I have been having informal conversations with Simon Pirotte for over a year now, since his appointment to the role, or almost a year now, and Simon did come to a meeting of the coleg Cymraeg board in Bangor the week before Easter. So, we certainly welcome the designation and the opportunity to advise, and we are in the process of discussing with the commission how that advice is to be provided.
We are in the process of agreeing a memorandum of understanding between the coleg and the commission, and our intention then, and what was discussed at our board meeting, is that we would propose initial advice on various priorities that have been identified in the previous Minister's statement on the priorities of the commission. We will provide initial advice on that in the autumn, but we do see the relationship as being a dynamic and crucial one that will evolve as time progresses.
We will also use the designation in order to discuss with partners how the ambitious advice that we will present—. Because we won't be naive and unrealistic, but we will be ambitious in terms of what needs to be done. I have to say that the discussion that we had with Simon—. And we're looking forward to having conversations with board members of the commission too, once the board is fully operational in the autumn, but those discussions have focused on the fact that there is an opportunity to transform the situation over time and to place the Welsh language in a far more central place. And I think that's the opportunity; that's how the coleg sees the situation, namely that there is an opportunity for the new commission as a regulator to emphasise to providers that the Welsh language is a core element where they are expected to attain the targets set. And that's the challenge for us all, to move from a situation where perhaps the Welsh language hasn't had that status. And the same is true of the FE and apprenticeships sector as well as the HE sector, and also sixth-form provision, which is part of that picture, and the collaboration between those different sectors will be crucial.
Wel, rwy'n ceisio deall—
Well, I'm trying to understand—
Let me switch to English. Chair, I'm going to go to English. I'm trying to understand—[Interruption.] Sorry? I can't hear you, Chair.
Oh. Your Welsh is fantastic.
Rôn ni'n dweud: mae eich Cymraeg chi'n wych.
I was saying that your Welsh is excellent.
Well, I can't formulate questions and translate in my head at the same time. [Laughter.] I'm trying to understand, with regard to CTER, who approached who. So, you've mentioned that they need to have Welsh language as a strategic priority in post-16 education, and I've seen the magic that Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol do. You know, we had the visit to Coleg y Cymoedd in Ystrad Mynach, and I saw the incredible work you're doing there, and that did feed into the report that I wrote that was mentioned earlier. But do you feel that—? The likes of Simon and Julie, do they approach you and say, 'Look, we want the Welsh language to be a strategic priority,' or do you feel that you're going to their door and pushing that?
Mae angen inni nodi bod y Ddeddf wedi adnabod, dynodi'r coleg i gynghori'r comisiwn, ac felly mae yna ddyletswydd ar y comisiwn i ymgynghori gyda’r coleg. Ac mae'n rhaid dweud, o'r cychwyn cyntaf, does yna ddim unrhyw gwestiwn wedi bod ynglŷn â hyn, ac, mewn trafodaethau diweddar gyda Simon a'i gyd-swyddogion, rŷn ni wedi trafod bod y comisiwn yn dymuno o'r cychwyn cael trefniadaeth lle mae'r cyngor yn cael ei gyflwyno ac yn cael ei ystyried o ddifrif, a byddwn i'n gobeithio bydd modd inni gyflwyno cyngor, mewn ymgynghoriad gydag eraill, i'r comisiwn a fydd yn uchelgeisiol, ond hefyd yn realistig o ran symud ymlaen.
Felly, dwi yn teimlo bod y bwrdd a'r prif swyddogion yn agored iawn i newid natur y drafodaeth yn fan hyn i osod y Gymraeg yn llawer mwy canolog i'r broses gynllunio a rheoleiddio. A dwi’n credu bod yna rôl gan y coleg i'w chwarae mewn perthynas â gweithio gyda'r colegau, gweithio gyda darparwyr, annog, cefnogi, cyd-gyllido, buddsoddi; byddai rôl y comisiwn yn ymwneud â sicrhau bod y darparwyr yn arddel eu cyfrifoldebau ac yn ymgyrraedd o ddifrif tuag at dargedau. Weithiau mae targedau’n anodd eu cyrraedd, ond os nad ydyn nhw'n cael eu cyrraedd, mae angen inni wybod pam, ac mae angen inni ddeall pam. A felly dwi'n credu byddai rôl rheoleiddio'r comisiwn yn allweddol o bwysig yn fanna, ond dwi'n credu y byddwn i yn pwysleisio dwi yn teimlo bod y berthynas wedi cychwyn yn arbennig o adeiladol, ac y byddwn ni, wrth i'r comisiwn ddod yn llawn weithredol yn yr hydref, yn gweld cyfle i gydweithio'n agos iawn wrth symud ymlaen.
We should note that the Act has identified and designated the coleg to advise the commission, so the commission is duty bound to consult with the coleg. And I have to say that, from the very outset, there's been no question about this, and, in recent discussions with Simon and his officials, we have discussed the fact that the commission does want from the outset to have arrangements in place where the advice is given and is considered in earnest, and I would hope that it would be possible for us to provide advice, in consultation with others, to the commission that will be ambitious, but also realistic in terms of making progress.
So, I do feel that the board and the senior officials are very open to changing the nature of the discussion in this area and to give the Welsh language a far more central place in the planning and regulation process. And I think there's a role for the coleg to play in relation to working with colleges and providers and to encourage and support, to jointly fund and invest; the role of the commission will be about ensuring that the providers do espouse their responsibilities and strive towards targets. Sometimes targets are difficult to achieve, but if they're not achieved, then we need to know why, and we need to understand why. And therefore I think that the regulatory role of the commission will be crucially important in that regard, but I think I would emphasise that I do feel that the relationship has started on a very positive footing, and, as the commission becomes fully operational in the autumn, we will see an opportunity to work very closely as we move forward.
Finally—.
Ac yn olaf—
Finally—
—you've recommended the commission undertakes a review of post-16 Welsh language and bilingual data—and you've touched on this already—I would therefore assume from what you've said they're very open to doing that, and that's going to happen. It's my intention to meet with Simon and Julie myself as well, to talk about some of these things that we've discussed today, in the context of the report I wrote and some of the work that Sharron Lusher did, so the evidence you've given today is really helpful. But do you feel that, therefore, you're knocking on an open door here and that that recommendation you made, with regard to monitoring and measuring data and progress post-16, is going to happen?
Bydd y comisiwn—. Gan fod cymaint o waith wedi cael ei wneud i sefydlu corff newydd, y teimlad sydd gen i ydy bod y comisiwn a'i fwrdd yn gweld bod angen iddyn nhw ddangos pam mae'r corff newydd yma wedi cael ei sefydlu ac y bydd pethau yn newid. Mae eisiau edrych ar ddata; mae eisiau edrych hefyd ar gyllido, a chael trefniadau cyllido sydd yn cydnabod yr heriau ond sydd hefyd yn gwobrwyo llwyddiant, a bod y colegau hynny, y darparwyr hynny, sydd yn llwyddo i sefydlu darpariaeth, fod yna fformiwlâu cyllidol yn ymwneud â'r Gymraeg sy'n galluogi'r ddarpariaeth yna i barhau i gael ei chynnig. Achos rŷn ni yn gwybod bod costau darparu trwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg, am nifer o resymau—adnoddau yn un sydd wedi cael ei gyfeirio ato—mae'r costau yn uwch, ac mae hwn wedi cael ei gydnabod mewn addysg uwch hefyd. Nawr, mae yna drefniadau yn eu lle ar hyn o bryd i gydnabod hynny, ond mae eisiau eu hadolygu nhw. Mae'r trefniadau wedi cael eu hadolygu'n gymharol ddiweddar mewn perthynas â'r sector prentisiaethau, ond mae yna gyfle nawr i'r comisiwn i edrych, dros y blynyddoedd nesaf hyn, ar nifer o'r ffactorau cynllunio cyd-destunol yma fydd yn helpu gydag amser, dwi'n meddwl, i wreiddio'r buddsoddi a'r newid diwylliant rŷn ni wedi cyfeirio ato bore yma.
The commission will—. As so much work has been done to establish a new body, the feeling that I have is that the commission and its board sees that they need to show why the new body has been established and that things will change. There's a need to look at data, and also funding, and to have funding arrangements that recognise the challenges and also reward success, and that those colleges and those providers that do succeed in providing that provision, that there are funding formulas available in relation to the Welsh language that enables that provision to continue to be offered. Because we do know that the cost of provision through the medium of Welsh, for a number of reasons—resources is one that has been referred to—the costs are higher, and that has been recognised and acknowledged in higher education. There are arrangements in place at the moment to recognise that, but those arrangements need to be reviewed. They have been reviewed quite recently in relation to the apprenticeship sector, but there's an opportunity now for the commission to look across the next few years at a number of the factors relating to these contextual areas that I think will help, in time, to root that change in investment and that culture change that we've referred to this morning.
Diolch. Dafydd neu Lisa, oeddech chi eisiau ychwanegu unrhyw beth? Dafydd.
Thank you. Dafydd or Lisa, did you want to add anything? Dafydd.
Ie. Doeddwn i ddim eisiau i'r cyfarfod orffen heb fy mod i wedi dweud yn ffurfiol, ar ran ColegauCymru, ein bod ni, fel colegau, yn credu bod y buddsoddiad eithaf bychain sydd wedi'i wneud trwy'r Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol yn wirioneddol wedi cael ei ddefnyddio'n effeithiol ac wedi cael impact ar draws y sector. Yn naturiol, mae wedi bod yn heriol iddyn nhw, oherwydd mae gwahanol golegau mewn gwahanol sefyllfa ac angen gwahanol gefnogaeth, ac mae'r Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol wedi bod yn sensitif i hynny ac wedi gwrando arnom ni fel darparwyr ynglŷn â sut rydym ni yn awyddus i ddefnyddio'r cyllid ac i ddatblygu'r cyllid. Ond dwi yn credu bod yna impact positif iawn wedi bod, o'r buddsoddiad sydd wedi'i wneud yn barod, a'i fod o'n allweddol i'r buddsoddiad yna ychwanegu a chynyddu, fel sydd wedi'i addo ar gyfer y flwyddyn nesaf, os ydym ni'n mynd i barhau efo'r momentwm a'r cynnydd rydym ni wedi'i weld o fewn y sector.
Yes. I didn't want the meeting to conclude without having said formally on behalf of ColegauCymru that we, as colleges, do believe that the relatively small investment that's been made through the Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol has truly been used effectively and has had an impact across the sector. Naturally, it's been challenging for them, because different colleges are in different places and need different kinds of support, and the Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol has been sensitive to that and has listened to us, as providers, in terms of how we are eager to use the funding and to develop that. But I do think there's been a very positive impact made as a result of the investment already made and that it is crucial that that investment should increase, as has been pledged for next year, if we are to actually maintain the momentum and progress we've seen within the sector.
Lisa, a oedd unrhyw beth roeddech chi eisiau'i ychwanegu?
Lisa, was there anything you wanted to add?
Yes. Again, just to add the same as well. I think the relationship with CTER is in its infancy, but it's growing, Hefin, just for you to know—we're going to meetings, myself and CollegesWales, at the end of the month—just in all aspects, really, as we develop that, moving forward. And I think, just reiterating what Dafydd said, the help with the coleg, for us as apprenticeship providers, has ensured that we can help young people with those positive experiences and impact upon their choices, then, in taking qualifications bilingually or wholly through the medium of Welsh. So, again, we welcome this opportunity to provide written evidence to you as well, and certainly can support that as we move forward, but also to be taking part in committee, because it is so vitally important. So that strategic funding and that sustainability of that will certainly help Government's vision for more people speaking Welsh, but also young people in their opportunities as well. So, diolch, thank you for the opportunity, and thank you, Chair.
And it was a pleasure to welcome Gwenllian Griffiths, as well, to the cross-party group on universities, which CTER attended. So, you know, I have seen—I've got to back up the questions I'm asking—that anffurfiol relationship happening. So that's very positive, I think. But that's all from me, Cadeirydd.
Ocê. Diolch yn fawr iawn. Wel, ar y nodyn yna, gaf i ddiolch i'n tystion ni i gyd am eich tystiolaeth y bore yma? Bydd transgript o'r hyn sydd wedi cael ei ddweud yn cael ei ddanfon atoch chi ichi wirio ei fod e'n gofnod teg. Efallai bydd ychydig o bethau byddwn ni eisiau dilyn lan mewn ysgrifen gyda chi, ond diolch yn fawr iawn ichi am eich amser bore yma; dŷn ni wir yn ei werthfawrogi fe. Diolch yn fawr iawn i'r tri ohonoch chi.
Okay. Thank you very much. So, on that note, may I thank all our witnesses for their evidence this morning? There will be a transcript of what has been said this morning sent to you to ensure that it's factually accurate. Perhaps we'd like to follow up some things with you in writing, but thank you very much for your time this morning; we really do appreciate it. Thank you to the three of you.
A diolch i chi am eich diddordeb.
And thank you for your interest.
Diolch yn fawr iawn. Diolch, bawb. Aelodau, fe wnawn ni nawr gymryd egwyl fer o bum munud a byddwn ni'n ailgychwyn am 10:40. Fe wnawn ni aros i glywed ein bod ni'n breifat.
Thank you, everybody. Members, we'll now take a short break of five minutes and we'll restart at 10:40. We'll just wait to hear that we're in private session.
Gohiriwyd y cyfarfod rhwng 10:35 a 10:42.
The meeting adjourned between 10:35 and 10:42.
Croeso nôl i bawb sydd yn gwylio, a dŷn ni'n symud yn syth ymlaen at ein sesiwn dystiolaeth nesaf. Gwnaf i ofyn i'n tyst gyflwyno ei hunan ar gyfer y record.
Welcome back to everybody who's watching, and we move straight on to our evidence session. I'll ask our witness to introduce herself for the record.
Dona Lewis, prif weithredwr y Ganolfan Dysgu Cymraeg Genedlaethol.
Dona Lewis, chief executive of the Canolfan Dysgu Cymraeg Genedlaethol.
Mae'n bleser i'ch cael chi gyda ni y bore yma. Fe wnawn ni fynd yn syth i mewn i gwestiynau os yw hwnna'n iawn.
It's a pleasure to have you with us this morning. We'll go straight into questions, if that's okay.
Wrth gwrs.
Of course.
Yn debyg i beth oeddwn i wedi ei ofyn ar gychwyn y sesiwn cyntaf, sut dŷch chi'n meddwl mae'r sector dysgu Cymraeg yn cefnogi'r nod o gyrraedd miliwn o siaradwyr erbyn 2050, ac ydy'r targed neu'r targedau sydd yn gysylltiedig gyda hynna yn realistig o hyd?
Similar to what I asked at the beginning of the first session, how do you think the learn Welsh sector is supporting the aims of 'Cymraeg 2050' of a million Welsh speakers, and are the targets associated with that realistic?
Diolch yn fawr am y croeso. Stori o lwyddiant sydd gen i i'w hadrodd i fod yn hollol onest efo chi. Mae yna fwrlwm rhyfeddol yn y sector dysgu Cymraeg ar hyn o bryd. Mae yna alw uchel ac mae yna awydd mawr i ddysgu Cymraeg. Felly, dŷn ni'n profi twf. Mae yna dwf yn cael ei weld yn flynyddol ar hyn o bryd. Dŷn ni newydd gyhoeddi ystadegau 2022-23 yn dangos cynnydd o 11 y cant o ran y niferoedd sydd yn dysgu Cymraeg. Felly, mae hynny i gyd yn newyddion cadarnhaol tu hwnt, wrth gwrs.
Mae gwaith y ganolfan wedi datblygu tipyn ers i ni sefydlu nôl yn 2016. Dŷn ni bellach yn ymestyn ein gwasanaethau i lawer mwy o gynulleidfaoedd na dŷn ni wedi yn y gorffennol. Felly, dŷn ni'n gweithio gyda theuluoedd, dŷn ni bellach yn gweithio gyda phobl ifanc, dŷn ni'n parhau i ddarparu ar gyfer oedolion yn y gymuned, wrth gwrs, ac yn gwneud hynny bellach yn rhithiol neu wyneb i wyneb. Dŷn ni hefyd yn darparu ar gyfer gweithluoedd, ac mae yna lot fawr o weithio gyda sectorau wedi datblygu dros y cyfnod diwethaf. Felly, mae gwaith y ganolfan yn wahanol iawn i'r gwaith dysgu Cymraeg i oedolion oedd yn bodoli yn y gorffennol. Ac felly, yn hynny o beth, dwi'n meddwl yn sicr mae'r buddsoddiad sy'n cael ei roi i ni yn y ganolfan yn sicrhau ein bod ni'n gallu cyrraedd mwy a mwy o bobl.
Llynedd, mi wnaethom ni gael cyfle am y tro cyntaf i weithio gyda phobl ifanc 16 i 18 oed, ac roedd hynny'n gyfle hollol newydd i ni—18 ymlaen ydy'r cyfle sydd wedi bod yn y gorffennol—ac mae hynny hefyd wedi profi yn llwyddiant. Mae o'n garfan ychydig yn heriol i ddenu unrhyw un i ddysgu Cymraeg, ond yn sicr dŷn ni wedi llwyddo ac wedi datblygu partneriaethau newydd ac yn y blaen ac wedi cyrraedd pobl ifanc yn hynny o beth.
Thank you very much for the welcome. It's a story of success that I have to tell, if I'm honest with you. There's great activity in the learn Welsh sector at the moment. There is great demand and a great desire to learn Welsh. So, we're seeing growth. We're seeing growth on an annual level. We've just published the statistics for 2022-23, which show an increase of 11 per cent in terms of the numbers learning Welsh. So, this is all very positive news, of course.
The work of the centre has developed a great deal since we were established back in 2016. We now reach out to far more audiences than we did in the past. So, we are working with families, we're now working with young people, we continue to provide for adults in the community, and are doing that either virtually or face to face. We also provide for workforces, and there's a great deal of sectoral working that's developed recently. So, the work of the centre is very different to the work of teaching Welsh to adults that existed in the past. So, in that regard, I think the investment made in the centre does ensure that we can reach more and more people.
Last year, we had an opportunity for the first time to work with young people between the ages of 16 and 18, and that was an entirely new thing for us—in the past, we worked with those from the age of 18 onwards—and that's proved to be successful. It is quite a challenging cohort to attract Welsh learners, but we've certainly succeeded and have developed new partnerships and have reached young people through that.
Grêt. Wel, mae nifer o bethau dŷch chi wedi sôn amdanyn nhw byddwn ni eisiau mynd i mewn i fwy o fanylder arnyn nhw, gyda chwestiynau, dwi'n siŵr. Fe wnawn ni symud yn gyntaf at Carolyn.
Great. A number of the things that you've mentioned we'll want to delve deeper into with questions. We'll move to Carolyn first.
Diolch. Just to expand on your evidence that, with significant investment, the centre could expand and really contribute.
Ie, yn sicr. Mae yna gynlluniau penodol gan y ganolfan sydd yn denu grantiau ychwanegol gan y Llywodraeth. Felly, mae'r priod waith, sef y gwaith rydyn ni'n ei wneud ddydd i ddydd o ddarparu i unrhyw oedolyn sydd eisiau dysgu Cymraeg, yn digwydd, ac mae yna lwyth ohonyn nhw'n gwneud hynny bellach, wyneb i wyneb neu'n rhithiol. Mae gennym ni hefyd gynlluniau penodol efo gweithluoedd, er enghraifft, o'r enw Cymraeg Gwaith, ac mae yna fuddsoddiad penodol sy'n cael ei roi i hwnnw.
Rydyn ni bellach wedi llwyddo i sefydlu cynlluniau gyda sectorau, rhai pwysig iawn—mae iechyd a gofal yn un eithaf mawr, newydd, yn ddiweddar—a, gyda'r buddsoddiad, rydyn ni'n llwyddo i osod tiwtor ym mhob un bwrdd iechyd, er enghraifft. Rydyn ni hefyd yn gweithio gyda'r sector gofal ac addysg blynyddoedd cynnar, ac wedi gwneud hynny ers sawl blwyddyn. Felly, rydyn ni'n gweithio gyda gweithluoedd penodol sydd angen cymorth o ran dysgu Cymraeg a dim ond yn gallu gwneud hynny gyda buddsoddiad ychwanegol. Rydyn ni hefyd yn prif ffrydio'r Gymraeg o fewn adrannau polisi gwahanol o fewn Llywodraeth Cymru. Felly, mae ein prif grant ni'n dod o is-adran y Gymraeg, wrth gwrs. Ond, wrth wneud hynny, rydyn ni hefyd yn gallu cefnogi'r gweithlu addysg statudol, ac mae gennym ni gynllun newydd a rhaglen genedlaethol newydd ar gyfer athrawon a chynorthwywyr addysg yn cychwyn eleni. Ac mae yna nifer fawr o ddatblygiadau newydd yn digwydd drwy'r amser o fewn gwaith y ganolfan, nid dim ond yr elfen draddodiadol o ddysgu Cymraeg sydd yn digwydd bellach gyda ni.
Yes, certainly. There are specific plans in place in the centre that attract additional grants from the Government. So, our day-to-day work in providing for any adults who want to learn Welsh is happening, and many are taking up those opportunities either face-to-face or virtually. We also have particular schemes with workforces, called Cymraeg Gwaith, and there's a specific investment for that.
We have also succeeded in establishing sectoral plans, very important ones—health and care is a very significant one recently—and, with the investment, we are managing to have a tutor in every health board, for example. We are also working with the early years care and education sector and have done so for many years. So, we're working with specific workforces who need support in learning Welsh and can only do that through additional investment. We're also mainstreaming the Welsh language within different policy areas in the Welsh Government. Our main grant comes from the Welsh language division, of course. But, in doing that, we can also support the statutory education workforce and we have a new national programme for teachers and teaching assistants, which is commencing this year. And there are a number of new developments happening all the time in the centre's work, not just that traditional element of teaching Welsh.
Diolch.
Diolch am hynna. Fe wnawn ni symud at Llyr.
Thank you for that. We'll move on to Llyr.
Ie, ocê—rhestr dda yn fanna, ond sut, felly, mae ailflaenoriaethu cyllideb y Llywodraeth yn mynd i gael effaith ar yr adnoddau a'r darpariaethau rŷch chi wedi sôn amdanyn nhw, yn benodol, efallai, dysgu Cymraeg i 16 i 25 oed?
Yes, okay. That was a good list there, but how, therefore, is the reprioritisation of the Government's budget going to have an impact on the resources and provision that you have mentioned, specifically, perhaps, the teaching of Welsh for 16 to 25-year-olds?
Ie, daeth y cyfle yna'r llynedd am y tro cyntaf, felly mi fuodd yna fuddsoddiad ychwanegol a oedd yn golygu ein bod ni'n cyrraedd cynulleidfa newydd i ni—felly, 16 i 18 oed. Wrth wneud hynny, rydyn ni wedi denu dros 1,000 o bobl ifanc i ymgymryd â'n gwasanaethau dysgu Cymraeg ni, ac mae hynny drwy ystod o gynigion gwahanol. Roeddem ni'n cynnig iddyn nhw ymuno â'n cyrsiau traddodiadol ni, os hoffwch chi, yn rhad ac am ddim, ac yn gwneud hynny, eto, yn rhithiol neu'n wyneb i wyneb, pa bynnag ffordd yr oedden nhw'n dymuno gwneud. Mae yna'n agos at 1,000 o bobl wedi'u cofrestru ar gyfer y math yna o wasanaethau.
Mae hefyd wedi caniatáu inni ymestyn i greu partneriaethau newydd. Felly, rydyn ni wedi gweithio gyda gwobr Dug Caeredin, er enghraifft, ac wedi datblygu sgìl dysgu Cymraeg newydd yn rhan o wobr Dug Caeredin am y tro cyntaf erioed. Rydyn ni hefyd wedi gweithio gyda cholegau addysg bellach yn peilota cynlluniau gwahanol gyda nhw, ac yn llwyddo i gyrraedd cynulleidfa lle maen nhw'n barod. Felly, yn amlwg, maen nhw o fewn y colegau ac wedi llwyddo i ddenu nifer cynyddol, a dweud y gwir, o bobl i fanteisio ar yr hyn rydyn ni'n cynnig. Rydyn ni'n canolbwyntio ar ddatblygu sgiliau hyder, felly nid dim ond yr elfen o ddysgu Cymraeg o'r cychwyn efo'r bobl ifanc—wrth gwrs, mae nifer ohonyn nhw wedi dod drwy'r gyfundrefn addysg. Felly, rydyn ni'n sicr yn canolbwyntio ar yr elfen codi hyder a defnyddio'r Gymraeg sydd gyda nhw, ac yn gwneud hynny wrth edrych ar eu dyfodol—cyflogadwyedd, ac yn y blaen. Felly, yn sicr, mae'r cyfle newydd yna wedi profi llwyddiant, buaswn i'n dweud, y llynedd.
Yes, that opportunity arose last year for the first time, so there was an additional investment that did mean that we were reaching a new audience for us—so, those between 16 and 18. In doing that, we have attracted over 1,000 young people to take up our services, and that's through a range of different offers. We offered our traditional courses, free of charge, and those were available either virtually or face-to-face, according to their own preference. Nearly 1,000 people have signed up for those kinds of services.
It has also allowed us to create new partnerships. We've worked with the Duke of Edinburgh award, for example, and developed a new Welsh language skill as part of the Duke of Edinburgh award for the very first time. We've also worked with further education colleges in piloting different schemes with them, and we've reached an audience where they already exist. Clearly, they're within the colleges already and we've attracted an increasing number of people to take up our offer. We do focus on developing skills and confidence, so it's not just the element of learning Welsh—many of them will have come through the education system in Wales. So, we're focused on developing confidence and encouraging them to use the Welsh language skills that they have, and doing so by looking at their future—employability, and so on. So, those new opportunities, certainly, led to successes last year.
Ond, y gorau y gallwch chi obeithio amdano nawr te yw cynnal y lefel yna o weithgarwch. Fedrwch chi ddim ehangu, efallai, yn y modd yr oeddech chi wedi gobeithio petai'r gyllideb y rhagwelwyd wedi dod.
But, the best you can hope for now is to maintain that level of activity. You can't think of expanding that in the way you had hoped to had the envisaged budget come.
Na, yn sicr. Felly, y cynnal fydd yn bosib, ond, gyda mwy o arian, yn sicr byddem ni'n gallu cyrraedd mwy o bobl. Dyna rydyn ni'n profi o fewn ein sector ni—mae'r galw yno; mae mwy o fuddsoddiad yn caniatáu inni ddarparu mwy. Felly, mi fyddwn ni'n gallu cynnal. Mi rydyn ni'n gobeithio cyrraedd yn agos at 2,000 o bobl ifanc. Rydyn ni wedi peilota lot o gynlluniau gwahanol y llynedd, a'r rheini wedi profi llwyddiant. Felly, fe fyddwn ni yn ymestyn rywfaint ar y ddarpariaeth ac yn cyrraedd ychydig mwy o bobl, ond, yn sicr, fydd y twf mawr yr oeddem ni wedi gobeithio y byddem ni yn gallu gwneud eleni ddim yn bosib, yn anffodus.
No, certainly. So, the maintaining is possible, but, with more money, we would be able to reach more people. I think that's what we experience in our sector—the demand is there; more investment allows us to provide more. So, we will be able to maintain. We do hope to reach about 2,000 young people. We piloted a number of different schemes last year, and those proved to be successful. So, we will be expanding a little on the provision and reaching some more people, but, certainly, that massive growth that we had hoped to achieve this year will not be possible, unfortunately.
Achos mae tystiolaeth Estyn yn nodi y gallai'r gostyngiad yn y gyllideb bresennol yma—mae'n ostyngiad termau real, onid yw e—danseilio cynnydd diweddar y ganolfan. Rŷch chi'n taro nodyn bach mwy gobeithiol, efallai, na beth oedd yr awgrym yn y dystiolaeth yna.
Estyn's evidence notes that the reduction in the current budget—it's a real-terms cut, isn't it—could undermine the recent progress made by the national centre. You're striking a more hopeful chord, perhaps, than the suggestion in Estyn's evidence.
Mae costau wedi codi'n gyffredinol i'n sector ni, felly mae strwythur dysgu Cymraeg wedi newid yn syfrdanol dros y tair blynedd diwethaf, yn sicr ers COVID. Dros no,s efo COVID, mi aeth ein holl ddarpariaeth dysgu Cymraeg ni yn rhithiol, ac, yn sgil hynny, rydyn ni rŵan yn rhyw fath o adfer i mewn i ryw fath o normal newydd o fewn ein sector ni, ac yn llwyddo i gyrraedd pobl newydd, wahanol gyda dulliau gwahanol o ddysgu. Felly, mae yna ddulliau wyneb i wyneb, dulliau rhithiol, hunanastudio, ac yn y blaen, am y tro cyntaf yn cael eu cynnig o fewn ein sector ni.
Ond, mae yna gostau cynyddol. Mae costau’r gweithlu yn cynyddu. Mae costau mynd i leoliad i ddarparu wyneb i wyneb, er enghraifft, yn cynyddu, a dydy’r cyllid ddim wedi cynyddu yn hynny o beth. Ond, gyda chyllid newydd, mae’n bosib cyrraedd cynulleidfaoedd newydd, a dwi’n meddwl mai dyna’r twf a’r potensial rydyn ni’n gweld. Mae yna botensial i gyrraedd cynulleidfaoedd newydd, a dyna rydyn ni’n profi ar hyn o bryd.
Costs have increased for our sector, so the structure of teaching Welsh has changed considerably over the last three years, certainly since COVID. Overnight, with COVID, all of our Welsh teaching went virtual, and, as a result of that, we are now trying to return to some new normal in our sector, and we are succeeding in reaching new people with different teaching methods. So, there are face-to-face, virtual, self-study approaches being offered for the first time within our sector.
But, there are increasing costs. Workforce costs are increasing. The cost of going to a location to provide face to face provision is increasing, and the funding hasn't increased in that regard. However, with new funding it is possible to reach new audiences, and I think that that is the growth and potential that we are seeing. There is potential to reach new audiences, and that's what we are experiencing at the moment.
Ond mae yna gyfnod, nawr, o ryw fath o 'flatline-o', o bosib, yn mynd i ddigwydd, onid oes e? Felly, hynny yw, sut mae rhywun yn cynnal y momentwm yna? Roeddwn i'n holi Dr Ioan Matthews ac eraill yn gynharach. Roedden nhw'n dweud, 'Wel, rŷn ni'n cychwyn o waelodlin isel.' Hynny yw, mae yna fuddsoddiad, efallai, sydd ddim wedi digwydd yn hanesyddol sy'n digwydd yn awr. Felly, mae hynny'n golygu bod yna gynnydd. Hynny yw, mae'n gwneud cyrraedd targed 'Cymraeg 2050', a oedd yn heriol i ddechrau, bron yn amhosibl, byddwn i'n tybio, ydy e, yng ngoleuni'r ffaith bod yna ryw fath o lefelu allan, os nad crebachu, mewn adnoddau?
But there will be a period of flatlining now, possibly, won't there? So, how does one maintain that momentum? I was questioning Dr Ioan Matthews and others earlier, and they said, 'Well, we are starting from a low baseline.' Investment that hasn't hasn't happened historically is happening now, which means that there is progress. So, doesn't it make reaching the target of 'Cymraeg 2050', which was challenging already, almost impossible now, given that there is some levelling out of resources, if not a reduction?
Mae llwyddiant yn dod â her, onid ydyw, a’r her sydd gennym ni yw ymateb i’r galw ar hyn o bryd. Mae rhestrau aros gan bobl i ddysgu Cymraeg, er enghraifft. Felly, yn sicr, mae’r galw yn uwch na’r hyn rydym ni'n gallu ei gyrraedd ar hyn o bryd. Rydyn ni’n ceisio gwneud y gorau o’r hyn sydd gyda ni, ac yn hynod gefnogol o’r gefnogaeth rydyn ni’n cael gan Lywodraeth Cymru yn hynny o beth. Rydyn ni’n gweithio’n greadigol ac yn arloesol i ffeindio ffyrdd newydd o gyflwyno cyfleoedd dysgu Cymraeg i bobl. Ond, yn sicr, y mwyaf o gyllid sydd ar gael—. Rydw i’n meddwl ein bod ni wedi profi ein bod ni’n gallu ffeindio pobl sy’n awyddus ac sydd â bwrlwm mawr i ddysgu Cymraeg. Felly, mae’r galw yno, yn sicr.
Success brings challenges, doesn't it, and the challenge for us is responding to current demand. There are waiting lists of people who want to learn Welsh. So, certainly, the demand is higher than what we can provide for at the moment. We are trying to do the best with what we have got, and we are very supportive of the support that we receive from the Welsh Government in that regard. We are working creatively, innovatively, to find new ways of providing opportunities to learn Welsh. But, certainly, the more funding that we have—. We can prove that we can find people who are keen and want to learn Welsh. So, the demand is there, certainly.
Faint o drasiedi yw hi nad ydych chi'n gallu cwrdd â'r galw yna, oherwydd rŷn ni, ers cenedlaethau, yn trio hyrwyddo'r Gymraeg ac yn annog mwy i ddysgu? Mae yna awch i ddysgu ac mae yna bobl allan yna sydd eisiau dysgu, a dyw'r gyfundrefn jest ddim yn cwrdd â'r galw.
How much of a tragedy is it that you can't meet that demand, because, for generations, we have been trying to promote the Welsh language and encourage more to learn? There's a desire to learn and there are people out there who are eager to learn, but the system just isn't meeting that demand.
Na, mae hi'n anodd. Rydyn ni wedi profi twf o ran cyllid y ganolfan dros y blynyddoedd diwethaf. Mae hynny’n sicr. Felly, mae’r cynlluniau newydd rydyn ni wedi denu arian newydd tuag atyn nhw, fel Cymraeg Gwaith ac yn y blaen, wedi ymestyn y galw a’r twf, wrth gwrs. Ond, wrth inni roi cynlluniau llwyddiannus ar waith, mae mwy o alw’n dod. Felly, rydw i’n meddwl mai hynny, yn sicr, rydyn ni’n gweld ar hyn o bryd. Mae’n gwaith ni yn sicr wedi tyfu ers sefydlu’r ganolfan yn ôl yn 2016, ac mae’r cyllid wedi tyfu gyda hynny. Ond, er mwyn cyrraedd mwy o bobl, mae, yn amlwg, angen mwy o gyllid.
No, it is difficult. We have had growth in funding for the centre over the last few years. The new schemes that we have attracted funding for, such as Cymraeg Gwaith, for example, have expanded demand and growth, of course. But, as we put successful schemes in place, demand increases, and I think that that's certainly what we are seeing now. Our work has certainly grown since the centre was established back in 2016, and funding has grown with that. But, in order to reach more people, clearly, more funding is needed.
Mae yna risg ein bod ni'n colli cyfle hanesyddol fan hyn.
There is a risk that we are missing out on a historic opportunity here.
Digon posib. Mae'r galw yn sicr yna. Rydyn ni newyd gyhoeddi ystadegau, sef ein bod ni wedi cyrraedd 11 y cant yn fwy o bobl. Mae pobl ifanc yn deisyfu i gael ein gwasanaethau ni. Felly, yn sicr, mae'r cyfle yna, rydw i'n meddwl, yn bendant.
That's quite possible. The demand is there. We have just published statistics, namely that we have reached 11 per cent more people. Young people do want to access our services. So, certainly, the opportunity is there.
Diolch.
Thank you.
Oce, diolch. Cyn inni symud at Tom, roeddech chi'n sôn am y ffaith taw un o'r pethau rydych chi'n gwneud ydy ceisio datblygu sgiliau hyder pobl. Yn y sesiwn flaenorol, roeddem ni'n trafod sut mae nifer o bobl, yn enwedig pobl ifanc, yn tueddu, efallai, i danwerthfawrogi neu danbrisio, bron, gymaint y maen nhw'n medru'r Gymraeg, a'r ffenomenon yna bod pobl yn medru siarad lot mwy na maen nhw'n—. Fel roedd Carolyn yn gofyn yn gynharach: beth yw siaradwr neu siaradwraig? Sut ydych chi yn gweld y ffenomenon yna'n datblygu, a sut mae'r gwaith hwnnw o ddatblygu hyder yn rhan o fynd i'r afael â fe?
Okay, thank you. Before we move on to Tom, you mentioned the fact that one of the things that you have tried to do is develop the confidence skills of people. In the previous session, we were discussing how a number of young people tend to not appreciate or to undervalue their own Welsh language skills, and that phenomenon that people can speak a lot more than—. As Carolyn asked earlier: what is a Welsh speaker? How do you see that phenomenon developing, and how is that work of developing confidence a part of addressing this?
Mae codi hyder yn rhywbeth rydyn ni'n gwneud, yn hanfodol, yn rhan o bopeth rydyn ni'n ei gynnig. Felly, mae'n anodd dysgu Cymraeg i unrhyw un heb ein bod ni hefyd yn rhoi'r hyder iddyn nhw ddefnyddio'r Gymraeg, wrth gwrs. Felly, beth rydyn ni'n ceisio annog ydy i bawb ddefnyddio'r Gymraeg sydd ganddyn nhw, os ydy hynny ar lefel gychwynnol neu os ydy hynny ar lefel uwch, neu os ydy hynny'n hyderus neu ddim. Yn sicr, mae rhan fawr o'r hyn rydyn ni'n gwneud yn ymwneud â'r elfen codi hyder. Byddwn i'n dweud bod pob cwrs neu ddosbarth dysgu Cymraeg hefyd yn canolbwyntio ar godi hyder i ddefnyddio'r Gymraeg sydd ganddyn nhw.
Mae yna gynlluniau penodol gan y ganolfan o ran codi hyder a defnyddio. Mae gennym ni ganolfan hyfryd yn Nant Gwrtheyrn. Rydyn ni'n cyllido ac yn gweithio'n agos gyda nhw o ran yr elfen dysgu Cymraeg arferol, ond hefyd o ran dysgu Cymraeg i weithluoedd penodol. Maen nhw'n profi llwyddiant rhyfeddol. Mae dros 300 o bobl yn mynd i'r Nant ac yn dod o 'na wedi codi eu hyder ac yn defnyddio mwy o Gymraeg. Felly, mae yna gynlluniau pendant gyda ni hefyd i ganolbwyntio ar yr elfen codi hyder a defnyddio, nid dim ond dysgu Cymraeg. Mae hynny mor bwysig ar gyfer pobl ifanc.
Yn sicr, wrth inni weithio efo partneriaid gwahanol, er enghraifft, Dug Caeredin, rydyn ni'n mynd at y bobl ifanc yn y lle y maen nhw'n mwynhau gwneud rhywbeth gwahanol ac yn dod â'r elfen dysgu Cymraeg i fewn i hynny. Mae yna gynllun newydd i sefydlu partneriaeth tebyg gyda'r Urdd cyn bo hir. Felly, rydym ni'n mynd ag elfennau dysgu Cymraeg i'w gwasanaeth awyr agored nhw. Dydyn ni ddim yn disgwyl i bobl ifanc ddod i eistedd mewn dosbarth traddodiadol i ddysgu Cymraeg; rydyn ni'n mynd atyn nhw. Dwi'n meddwl bod hynny mor bwysig pan fo hi'n dod i godi hyder, defnyddio'r Gymraeg, a'i defnyddio'n hyderus i'r lefel sydd gyda nhw.
Increasing confidence is something that's an intrinsic part of everything that we provide. It's difficult to teach Welsh to anyone without giving them the confidence to use the Welsh language. What we are encouraging everyone to do is to use the Welsh language skills that they have, whether that is at the beginner level or at a higher level, whether that is done confidently or not. Certainly, a large part of what we do does relate to increasing confidence. I would say that every course and every class does focus on increasing the confidence of people to use the Welsh language that they have.
We do have particular programmes in terms of language use and confidence. We have the wonderful centre at Nant Gwrtheyrn. We fund and work very closely with them in terms of teaching Welsh, but also teaching Welsh to particular sectors of the workforce. They are experiencing great success. Over 300 people are going to Nant Gwrtheyrn and leaving with greater confidence and using more Welsh. So, we do have plans in place also to focus on usage and confidence, not just teaching. That is so very important for young people.
As we work with different partners, for example, the Duke of Edinburgh award, we go to those young people where they enjoy doing something different and bring the Welsh language into that. There is a new proposal for a similar partnership with the Urdd soon. So, we take Welsh language learning into their outdoor pursuits sector. We don't expect young people to sit in a traditional classroom to learn Welsh; we go to them. I think that's so important when it comes to raising confidence, using the Welsh language, and using the language confidently at the level that they have.
Grêt, diolch am hwnna. Fe wnawn ni symud at Tom.
Great, thank you for that. We'll move on to Tom.
Diolch yn fawr. Roeddwn i'n darllen yr ymchwil sydd gyda ni neithiwr, ac roedd hwn yn sefyll mas i fi a dwi'n moyn checio fe:
'Rhwng 2021-22 a 2022-23, mae’r Ganolfan wedi gweld cynnydd o 11 y cant mewn dysgwyr unigryw'.
Mae hynny'n mad, mae'n rhaid i fi ddweud. Pam?
Thank you. I was reading the research last night, and one thing that stood out to me, and I want to check, is:
'Between 2021-22 and 2022-23, the Centre has seen an 11% increase in unique learners'.
That's mad, I have to say. Why?
Ydy, gwych. Dwi'n meddwl mai beth sydd wedi digwydd ydy bod gwaith y ganolfan wedi esblygu. Yn draddodiadol, cyn dyfodiad y ganolfan, sector 'Cymraeg i oedolion' oedd yn bodoli. Mae'r sector wedi newid. Mae'n sector 'dysgu Cymraeg', byddwn i'n dweud, bellach. Gyda hynny, mae yna ddulliau newydd a gwahanol ar gael i bobl i ddysgu Cymraeg. Os ydych chi'n brysur yn eich bywyd bob dydd, fe allwch chi hunanastudio gyda'r nos. Os ydych chi eisiau dysgu'n rhithiol o gartref, fe allwch chi wneud hynny bellach. Mae yna hefyd gyfleoedd wyneb i wyneb yn dal i fod o fewn cymunedau gwahanol. Dwi'n meddwl bod yna ystod o gynlluniau newydd a gwahanol sydd wedi arwain at y twf, yn sicr. Ond mae'n wych o beth gallu adrodd bod y cynnydd wedi digwydd.
Yes, it's fantastic. I think that what's happened is that the work of the centre has evolved. Traditionally, before the establishment of the centre, it was a 'Welsh for adults' sector that existed. The sector has changed. It is now a 'learn Welsh' sector, I would say. With that, there are new and different approaches for people to learn Welsh. If you're busy in your day-to-day life, you can undertake self-study in the evening. If you want to learn virtually from home, you can do that now. There are also face-to-face opportunities still available within different communities. So, I think it's the range of opportunities and new schemes that are in place that have led to that growth. But it's great to be able to report that that growth has happened.
Mae'n grêt i glywed. Beth ydych chi'n meddwl fydd y demand yna yn y dyfodol? Sut ydych chi'n mesur hynny i weld beth sy'n mynd i ddigwydd yn y dyfodol?
That's great to hear. What do you think that demand will be in the future? How will you measure that to see what's going to happen in the future?
Dwi'n meddwl bod rhaid i ni edrych yn ôl rywfaint i brofi hynny. Rydyn ni wedi gweld cynnydd flwyddyn ar flwyddyn bob blwyddyn ers i ni sefydlu'r ganolfan nôl yn 2016. Roedd yna un eithriad bach yn ystod COVID lle'r oedd y twf yn eithriadol o uchel, ond roedd lot o bobl wedi troi at gyrsiau hunanastudio, ac yn y blaen, rydyn ni'n cymryd oherwydd roedd yna lot yn fwy o bobl adref. Felly, mae yna un eithriad, ond yn gyffredinol mae'r cynnydd yna wedi digwydd yn flynyddol. Felly, o edrych ar hynny ac edrych ar ein gwaith ni efo cynulleidfaoedd newydd a gwahanol, mae'r galw yna, mae yna waith i ni ei wneud, yn sicr. Mae yna ryw bwynt yn mynd i ddod, os nad oes yna fwy o fuddsoddiad, lle mae hynny'n mynd i fynd ychydig yn fwy fflat, yn sicr. Ond, rydyn ni'n dal i drio meddwl am bartneriaethau newydd, cyfleoedd gwahanol, ffyrdd newydd, arloesol, creadigol o wneud hyn er mwyn cyrraedd mwy a mwy o bobl.
I think we have to look back. We've seen year on year progress since the establishment of the centre back in 2016. There was one exception during COVID where the growth was exceptional, but many people had turned to self-study courses because, we assume, that there were more people at home. So, there's that one exception, but, generally speaking, that increase has happened annually. So, in looking at that and in looking at our work with new and different audiences, the demand is there, and there is work for us to do, most certainly. There will come a point, if there is no more investment, where that will start to flatline, certainly. But, we are still looking to new partnerships, new opportunities, and creative and innovative ways of delivering this in order to reach more people.
Ac wrth ichi wneud y projections hynny, gan edrych ar yr arian a'r resources arall sydd gyda chi, ydych chi'n teimlo bod popeth gyda chi sydd ei angen i sicrhau eich bod chi'n gallu meet that demand?
And as you make those projections, looking at the funding and other resources that you have, do you feel that you have everything that's required to ensure that you can meet that demand?
Mae'n mynd i fynd yn anoddach. Mae'r sefyllfa ariannol yn fwy heriol, ond rydyn ni hefyd yn deall bod y sefyllfa ariannol yn heriol beth bynnag, onid ydy? Felly, mae'n rhaid i ni fyw o fewn yr hinsawdd sydd ohoni ar hyn o bryd. Mae yna gostau cynyddol ar ein darparwyr ni, i logi ystafelloedd, er enghraifft. Mae'r gweithlu yn weithlu proffesiynol; mae'r cyflogau wedi cynyddu. Felly, mae yna gostau uwch o ran ein sector ni, yn bendant. Felly, dwi ddim yn siŵr os ydyn ni'n mynd i brofi yr un maint o gynnydd, ond, wrth i ni feddwl am ffyrdd newydd a mwy creadigol o weithredu, a hefyd brif ffrydio'r Gymraeg rywfaint a derbyn cyllid o wahanol adrannau polisi o fewn Llywodraeth Cymru, dwi'n meddwl y bydd hi'n bosib inni barhau i gyrraedd nifer uchel o bobl, ond efallai nid y nifer uchaf posib o bobl.
It's going to get more difficult. The financial situation is more challenging, but we also understand that the financial situation is challenging across the board. So, we have to live within the current climate. There are increasing costs for our providers, in terms of renting rooms, for example. The workforce is a professional workforce and the salaries have increased, so there are higher costs in terms of our sector. I don't know if we're going to experience the same level of increase, but, as we think of more creative and new ways of operating, and also by mainstreaming the Welsh language and getting funding from different policy departments within the Welsh Government, I do think that we can continue to reach a high number of people, but perhaps not the highest number of people possible.
Yn y projections rydych chi'n gwneud a'r gwaith rydych chi'n gwneud, a oes relationship clir rhwng faint o arian sydd gyda chi yn mynd i mewn a faint o bobl sy'n dod mas sy'n gallu siarad Cymraeg a gwneud cyrsiau a phopeth yn y Gymraeg? A oes correlation clir i'w weld rhwng y ddau?
In the projections that you're undertaking and the work that you're doing, is there a clear relationship between how much funding you have going in and how many people are coming out of the system who can speak Welsh and are undertaking courses in Welsh? Is there a strong correlation between both?
Oes, dwi'n meddwl bod yna. Mae'r sefyllfa gyllido yn eithaf cymhleth, felly af i ddim mewn i ormod o fanylder. Mae yna fformiwla ar gyfer pob dysgwr, er enghraifft, ar gyfer rhai o'r gweithgareddau. Ond dwi'n meddwl mai'r prif beth i'w ddweud ydy pan fydd yna fuddsoddiad yn digwydd a'n bod ni'n sefydlu cynlluniau newydd—er enghraifft, Cymraeg Gwaith ar gyfer gweithluoedd—mae yna niferoedd tu hwnt o uchel yn manteisio ar y gwasanaethau yna ac felly yn dod yn ddysgwyr y Gymraeg yn sgil y buddsoddiad ychwanegol yna.
I think so, yes. The funding situation is quite complex, so I won't go into too much detail. There is a formula for every learner, for example, in terms of some of the activities. But I think the main thing to say is that when there is investment made and we establish new schemes—such as Cymraeg Gwaith for workforces—there are exceptionally high numbers taking advantage of those services and therefore becoming Welsh learners as a result of that additional investment.
Ocê, grêt.
Okay, great.
Diolch yn fawr. Rydyn ni'n mynd nôl at Carolyn, dwi'n meddwl.
Thank you. We'll go back to Carolyn now.
I was too busy listening. I lost track. Could I just seek clarity on the number and percentage of young people who enrolled on a learn Welsh course as a result of the free 16-25 course, and what impact will the recent budget decision have on that, again?
Felly, nôl yn 2022-23, roedden ni’n adrodd ein bod ni wedi cyrraedd 1,150 o bobl ifanc. Felly, mi wnaethon ni sefydlu lot o gynlluniau newydd yn ystod y flwyddyn gyntaf, gweld beth oedd yn bosib, beth oedd yn gweithio, beth oedd ddim yn gweithio ac yn y blaen. Felly, wrth wneud hynny rŵan ar gyfer 2023-24, dŷn ni’n gobeithio cyrraedd o gwmpas 2,000 o bobl ifanc. Mae hynny’n gyfuniad o ffyrdd gwahanol o weithio. Un ydy’r cynnig am ddim i bobl ifanc ymuno gyda’n cyrsiau ni. Dŷn ni hefyd yn gweithio gyda cholegau addysg bellach ac ysgolion ac yn cynnig gwasanaethau iddyn nhw hefyd. Mae gennym ni hefyd gynlluniau ar waith gyda’r sector addysg uwch, lle dŷn ni’n mewnblannu elfennau o ddysgu Cymraeg i mewn i gyrsiau gradd, er enghraifft, ac mae hynny, yn amlwg, yn ffordd wahanol o gyrraedd pobl ifanc. Mae yna hefyd gyfleoedd diddorol wedi codi lle dŷn ni wedi gweithio gyda darparwyr prentisiaethau, er enghraifft, ac eto wedi mewnblannu’r elfen ddysgu Cymraeg i mewn i’w cyrsiau nhw. A dyna dwi’n golygu wrth fod yn greadigol—mae’n rhaid inni feddwl am ffyrdd gwahanol.
Felly, y nod ydy ein bod ni’n cyrraedd o gwmpas 2,000 o bobl ifanc. Dŷn ni hefyd, fel rhan o’r cynllun, yn meddwl ei bod yn bwysig ein bod ni hefyd yn uwchsgilio’r gweithlu sydd yn gyfrifol am hyfforddi'r bobl ifanc. Felly, yn hynny o beth, dŷn ni’n buddsoddi i hyfforddi’r gweithlu addysg bellach ac addysg uwch, ac yn gwneud hynny trwy bartneriaeth gyda’r Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol. A dŷn ni hefyd yn gweithio i uwchsgilio rhywfaint ar y gweithlu addysg statudol hefyd, fel rhan o’r cynlluniau.
So, back in 2022-23 we reported that we reached 1,150 young people. We established a number of new plans in the first year. We could see what was possible, what was working, what wasn’t working and so forth. So, in doing that now for 2023-24, we’re hoping to reach about 2,000 young people. That’s a combination of different ways of working. One is the free offer to young people for joining our courses. We’re also working with fuher education colleges and schools, providing services to them as well. We also have plans with the higher education sector, where we're introducing elements of Welsh into degree courses, for example, and that’s, obviously, a different way of reaching young people. There are also interesting opportunities where we’ve worked with apprenticeship providers, for example, and we’ve implanted that Welsh element into their courses. That’s what I mean by being creative. We have to think of different ways.
So, the aim is that we reach about 2,000 young people. As part of the plan, we also think it’s important that we upskill the workforce that’s responsible for training young people. So, in that regard we’re investing to train the FE and HE workforce, and doing that in partnership with the Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol. And we’re also working to upskill the statutory workforce as well, as part of the plans.
Can I ask you a question on reaching that age, 16 to 25, through a sense of belonging through culture, and through sport as well, so with the rise of Wrexham, singing 'Yma o Hyd', Dafydd Iwan, the national anthem, 'Hen Wlad fy Nhadau', and that feeling of Welshness, and encouraging young people to learn Welsh through that? And, then, how easy is it for young people to access Welsh courses online? They use their devices so often now, and that's where a lot of research is done, isn't it, online? So, just a question on that, really.
Mae’r un chwaraeon yn un diddorol. Dŷn ni yn sicr wedi gweld twf o ran ein partneriaethau ni gyda’r sector chwaraeon dros y blynyddoedd diwethaf. Felly, dŷn ni wedi cydweithio’n agos gyda’r FAW, er enghraifft. Mae gennym ni diwtor i mewn yn yr FAW yn hyfforddi’r gweithlu draw yn yr FAW, ac yn cynorthwyo chwaraewyr hefyd i fod yn defnyddio mwy o’u Cymraeg. Mae hynny yn amlwg, wedyn, yn dylanwadu pan mae pobl ifanc yn gwylio chwaraewyr yn defnyddio'r Gymraeg ac yn y blaen. Mae’r un math o waith ar waith gyda’r WRU hefyd. Roeddech chi'n sôn am glwb pêl-droed Wrecsam—mae’r un math o bartneriaeth gyda ni yn fanna. Mae yna diwtor yng nghlwb pêl-droed Wrecsam yn hyfforddi’r gweithlu ac yn cefnogi chwaraewyr, er enghraifft, i ddefnyddio mwy o’u Cymraeg. Felly, mae ein gwaith ni yn hynny o beth yn sicr yn mynd i fod yn dylanwadu, dwi’n meddwl, ar bobl ifanc.
O ran yr elfen arlein, mae lot fawr o beth dŷn ni’n ei gynnig bellach ar gael arlein yn hawdd iawn trwy ffonau, trwy dabledi ac yn y blaen. Dŷn ni’n ceisio sicrhau bod pobl ifanc yn gallu cyrraedd ein gwasanaethau ni yn y ffordd fwyaf hwylus posib, ac os ydy hynny wrth gyrraedd ble maen nhw'n barod, trwy ysgolion neu golegau addysg bellach, neu wrth ganiatáu iddyn nhw allu mynd ar eu ffonau a’u tabledi ac yn y blaen—. Felly, mae yna ystod o adnoddau hunanastudio gyda ni y mae rhywun yn gallu troi atyn nhw unrhyw bryd, neu mae yna lot fawr o’n gwersi ni yn rhithiol hefyd, ac mae pobl yn gallu ymuno arlein ac yn y blaen.
That sport issue is an interesting one. We’ve certainly seen growth in terms of our partnership with the sport sector in recent years. So, we’ve worked closely with the Football Association of Wales, for example. We have a tutor in the FAW training the workforce there and assisting players to use more of their Welsh language skills too, and obviously that has an influence on young people when they are watching players speaking Welsh and so on. The same kind of work is happening with the Welsh Rugby Union too, and you mentioned Wrexham football club—we have the same sort of partnership there. There is a tutor at Wrexham football club actually teaching the workforce and supporting players to make more use of their Welsh language skills. So, our work in that area will certainly have an influence on young people.
In terms of the online elements, much of what we offer now is available online through phones, tablets and so on. We do try and ensure that young people can access our services in the most convenient way possible, and if that is by going to where they are already, through schools or FE colleges, or allowing them to go on their phones and tablets, then so be it. So, there is a range of self-study resources available that one can turn to at any point, or many of our classes are available virtually, and people can join online and so on.
Self-study—[Inaudible.]—before. Diolch.
Diolch am hwnna. Jest cyn inni symud at Hefin, roeddech chi'n sôn am fewnblannu gyda'r sector ôl-16. Allwch chi jest ymhelaethu ychydig ar beth mae hwnna'n golygu, neu ba fath o beth ydych chi'n golygu trwy hwnna?
Thank you for that. Just before we move on to Hefin, you mentioned the implanting in the post-16 sector. Could you expand a little bit on what you mean with that?
Felly, mae yna gwpl o enghreifftiau ar hyn o bryd lle dŷn ni wedi rhoi—. Mae ein cyrsiau traddodiadol ni yn 120 awr. Dŷch chi’n gorfod astudio 120 o oriau, sydd yn oriau sylweddol, i gyrraedd diwedd lefel. Felly, beth dŷn ni wedi gwneud ydy rhoi’r 120 awr yna i mewn i gyrsiau gradd fel bod pobl yn gallu gwneud hynny wrth iddyn nhw astudio. Felly, mae yna esiampl o hynny yn digwydd wrth i rywun astudio plentyndod cynnar, er enghraifft. Felly, mae yna gwpl o gyfleoedd fel yna dŷn ni’n gweld os ydy o'n gweithio, i gychwyn, a faint mwy o gyfleoedd sydd yn mynd i godi. Fel roeddwn i’n dweud, dwi’n meddwl ei bod hi’n bwysig ein bod ni’n cyrraedd pobl ble maen nhw'n barod, ac yn manteisio ar y cyfleoedd yna ac yn rhoi’r cyfleoedd mor hawdd ag sy’n bosib iddyn nhw.
There are a couple of examples where we've—. Our traditional courses are 120 hours. You have to study 120 hours, which is significant, in order to reach the end of the level. What we have done is to insert those 120 hours into degree courses so that they can undertake them as they study. So, there is an example of that as one studies early childhood, for example. So, there are those opportunities where we see whether it works, first of all, and how many opportunities will arise. As I said, I think it’s important that we actually access people where they are, and take those opportunities and make those opportunities available to them as easily as possible.
Diolch am hwnna. Ocê, gwnawn ni symud at Hefin.
Thank you for that. Okay, we'll move on to Hefin.
Diolch, Gadeirydd. Can I ask whether the witness could expand on the pilot scheme and say more about the pilot scheme for 16 to 18-year-olds in partnership with Say Something in Welsh, and how it could be further developed?
Mae'n cydweithio ni efo Say Something in Welsh wedi bodoli ers sawl blwyddyn bellach. Felly, dŷn ni'n darparu adnodd Say Something in Welsh i'n dysgwyr ni i gyd, felly mae unrhyw un sy'n dysgu gyda ni yn gallu manteisio ar adnodd Say Something in Welsh. Mae'r adnodd yn canolbwyntio ar y sgiliau llafar, felly os ydy rhywun eisiau ymarfer siarad maen nhw'n gallu gwneud hynny drwy Say Something in Welsh. Mae yna filoedd ar filoedd o'n dysgwyr ni yn manteisio ar y cyfleoedd yna.
Dŷn ni yn credu y mwyaf o ymarfer, y mwyaf o ddefnydd mae rhywun yn gwneud ym mha bynnag fformat mae hynny yn digwydd—os mai trwy Say Something in Welsh, trwy Duolingo—mae unrhyw ymarfer yn ategu at y cyfleoedd dysgu Cymraeg sydd yn digwydd. Felly, mi wnaethom ni beilota y llynedd ddefnyddio Say Something in Welsh gyda'r ystod oedran ifanc yna hefyd, ac maen nhw, yn yr un modd, wedi gallu manteisio ar yr adnodd yn rhad ac am ddim wrth iddyn nhw fanteisio ar ein cyfleoedd dysgu Cymraeg ni.
Our collaboration with Say Something in Welsh has existed for a number of years now. So, we provide a Say Something in Welsh resource to all our learners, so anybody who's learning with us can take advantage of the Say Something in Welsh resource. The resource focuses on oral skills, so if somebody wants to practice speaking they can do that through Say Something in Welsh. Thousands upon thousands of our learners take advantage of those opportunities.
We think that the more practice and use that somebody does, whatever the format is—whether it's through Say Something in Welsh or Duolingo—any practice adds to the opportunities of learning Welsh. So, we piloted last year Say Something in Welsh with that young age range, and in the same way they've been able to take advantage of the resource for free as they take advantage of our opportunities to learn Welsh.
Thank you, and can I also ask about your work with the Urdd, and particularly support for apprentices from ethnic minority backgrounds?
Mae yna bartneriaeth gref gyda'r Urdd. Dŷn ni'n sicr yn cydweithio ac yn chwilio am gyfleoedd newydd gyda nhw, yn bendant, ac roeddwn i'n sôn yn gynharach am y cynllun newydd o ran darparu elfennau o ddysgu Cymraeg gyda'u gwasanaethau awyr agored nhw, er enghraifft. Mae yna lot o waith yn digwydd gan y ganolfan o ran cyrraedd cynulleidfaoedd gwahanol. Mae gennym ni gynllun gwrth-hiliaeth newydd wedi ei gyhoeddi yn ddiweddar. Mae gennym ni gynllun o'r enw 'Croeso i bawb' sydd ar waith, ond mae gennym ni hefyd ystod o adnoddau— ac mae adnodd Say Something yn un ohonyn nhw—ar gael i bobl drwy ieithoedd amrywiol. Felly, os ydy rhywun eisiau dysgu Cymraeg trwy'r iaith Pashto, maen nhw'n gallu gwneud hynny. Mae'r ystod yna o adnoddau hefyd ar gael. Felly, mae yna lot fawr wedi digwydd yn y maes yna.
Mae yna hefyd dipyn o gyfleoedd wedi codi wrth inni weithio gyda phobl ifanc efo cyrsiau prentisiaethau. Dwi'n sicr byddai yna fwy o botensial i wneud mwy, ond mae yna ambell i gyflogwr blaengar wedi manteisio ar y cyfle i fewnblannu'r elfen dysgu Cymraeg i mewn i'r cwrs prentisiaeth. Mae hynny wedi digwydd efo cwrs animeiddio, er enghraifft, ac mae yna un arall ar waith yn y Fflint.
There's a strong partnership with the Urdd. Certainly, we work with and look for new opportunities with them, and I mentioned earlier about the new scheme in terms of providing elements of learning Welsh in their outdoor activity services, for example. There is a lot of work being done by the centre in terms of reaching different audiences. We have anti-racism plan that was published recently. We have the 'Croeso i bawb'—wellcome to all—scheme that's being undertaken, but we also have a range of resources—and Say Something is one of them—available through different languages. So, if somebody wants to learn Welsh through the Pashto language, they can do so. That range of resources is also available. So, a lot of work has happened in that area.
There are also a few opportunities that have arisen as we've been working with young people in terms of apprenticeship courses. I'm sure there's more potential to do more in that area, but some innovative employers have taken advantage of the opportunity to implant that Welsh learning element into apprenticeship courses. That's happened with an animation course, for example, and there's another one being undertaken in Flint.
Ocê. Diolch am hwnna. Oedd gan unrhyw un unrhyw gwestiwn arall—? Ie, Tom, roeddwn i'n gweld efallai.
Thank you for that. Any more questions from any other Members? Tom, yes.
Roeddech chi wedi sôn am Duolingo. Roeddwn i'n moyn gofyn i chi am Duolingo. Chwe mis yn ôl neu rywbeth, roedd Duolingo yn dweud nad oedden nhw yn mynd i gario ymlaen i 'updat-io' yr ap. Pa effaith mae hwnna wedi ei gael, yr ydych chi wedi gweld hyd yn hyn, ar eich ymdrechion chi i gael pobl i ddysgu Cymraeg?
You mentioned Duolingo, and I wanted to ask you about Duolingo. Around six months ago, Duolingo said that they weren't going to continue updating the app. What impact has that had to date in terms of your efforts?
Y newyddion da ydy bod y cwrs yn dal i fodoli. Felly, mae'r cwrs Duolingo Cymraeg yn dal i fod yna, a llawer iawn o bobl yn troi ato fo. Beth ddaeth i ben oedd yr elfen diweddaru ar y cwrs. Felly, i fod yn hollol onest, dwi ddim yn rhagweld bydd yna effaith enfawr ar hynny. Mae'r adnodd yn dal i fod ar gael. Mae pobl yn troi ato fo yn union yn yr un modd. Dŷn ni wedi alinio rhywfaint o'r cwrs Duolingo gyda'n cyrsiau ni, felly mae'n eithaf hawdd i bobl fanteisio ar y ddau. Ond, eto, buaswn i'n annog pobl i ddefnyddio Duolingo i ategu at yr hyn dŷn ni'n ei wneud, i ymarfer ac i'w helpu nhw i ddefnyddio'r Gymraeg. Felly, dim effaith enfawr, i fod yn onest.
The good news is that the course still exists. So, the Welsh language Duolingo course is still there, and many people are turning to it. What ended was the updating of the course. So, to be entirely honest, I wouldn't anticipate there being a huge impact as a result of that. The resource is still available and people are turning to it in exactly the same way. We have aligned some of the Duolingo course with our courses, so people can take advantage of both. But, again, I would encourage people to use Duolingo to add to what we do, in order to practice their skills and help them to use the Welsh language. So, no huge impact, if truth be told.
Ocê, grêt. Diolch.
Okay, great. Thank you.
Iawn? Felly, diolch yn fawr iawn i chi am eich tystiolaeth. Fel roeddwn i'n dweud yn gynharach, bydd transcript o beth sydd wedi cael ei ddweud yn cael ei anfon atoch chi ichi wirio ei fod e'n gofnod teg. Ond diolch yn fawr iawn am y dystiolaeth bore yma. Mae wedi bod yn bleser.
Okay? Thank you very much for your evidence. As I said earlier, a transcript of what's been said will be sent to you to check for factual accuracy. But thank you very much for your evidence this morning. It's been a pleasure having you here.
Diolch yn fawr. Diolch i chi.
Thank you.
Diolch yn fawr.
Thank you.
Aelodau, dŷn ni'n symud nawr yn syth at y papurau i'w nodi, a dŷn ni wedi cael nifer o bapurau dros y toriad, o eitem 4.1 yn eich pecynnau hyd at eitem 4.8 yn eich pecynnau. Ydych chi'n fodlon i ni nodi'r papurau hynny? Iawn, ocê.
Members, we move on now straight to papers to note, and we've received a number of papers over the recess, from item 4.1 in our packs to item 4.8 in your packs. Are you happy to note those papers? Yes, okay.
Cynnig:
bod y pwyllgor yn penderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y cyfarfod yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 17.42(ix).
Motion:
that the committee resolves to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting in accordance with Standing Order 17.42(ix).
Cynigiwyd y cynnig.
Motion moved.
Felly, rwy'n cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.42 i benderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y cyfarfod hwn. Ydych chi'n fodlon inni wneud hynny? Iawn, ocê. Fe wnawn ni aros i glywed ein bod ni'n breifat.
Therefore, I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of this meeting. Are you content for us to do so? Yes, okay. We'll wait to hear that we are in private session.
Derbyniwyd y cynnig.
Daeth rhan gyhoeddus y cyfarfod i ben am 11:09.
Motion agreed.
The public part of the meeting ended at 11:09.