Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru

Llyr.

I second Llyr.

Diolch. Bore da. I'm learning Welsh, so—

—please respond in Welsh; that's fine, I'll use my headphones. I'm just going to ask you some questions regarding financial accountability. So, I read in your report that you've bought a new case management system for £243,000. I just want to explore the value for money for it—what it's going to be used for. I've read that it's going to be in operation this year, so how will it help, really, through the benefits?

Okay. 

Just quickly. 

Diolch. You're looking at rationalising the estate, which I personally commend, down from—I think it was four offices down to just one.

Yes, okay. So, you've closed three of the four offices.

Yes, please.

Okay, thank you. So, you're looking at hot desking within the Welsh Government's office.

Okay, thank you, because my further question was about the independence, you know, of Welsh Government—

Okay. And lastly, just regarding reserves, just if you could expand on the amount of reserves you have. Previously it was said it was prudent to maintain 5 per cent of the annual budget, but current reserves, as of March 2023, stood at £165,000, which isn't very much.

Thank you. You've covered the questions really well. Thank you. Diolch.

It's my pleasure to invite the witnesses to introduce themselves for the record.

Hello, I'm Tanni Grey-Thompson. I'm chair of Sport Wales.

Thank you both very much. We'll go straight into questions, if that's all right. Could you outline for us, please, what the effect is of the cost-of-living pressures that are being felt in Wales on sports participation, but also on facilities? 

In terms of sports participation, we're seeing a number of challenges, which is laid on top of the impact of COVID. It's going to take a little bit more time for some of the figures to come out, but what we're seeing is that people from the most challenged socioeconomic backgrounds are struggling to participate. We're seeing that in some of the school figures as well, in terms of participation outside the school curriculum, in terms of the numbers of young people. So, the cost-of-living crisis will continue to have an impact. I think it's something that we're incredibly mindful of in Sport Wales and also within the governing bodies, in terms of how we're trying to present sports opportunities.

But the impact is not just going to be felt in the short term—it's going to be felt for years and years to come, because if young people are dropping out of physical activity now, or they don't feel that they have the opportunity to do so, the impact that's going to have on the health and well-being, and mental health well-being as well as physical, will be felt for a long time to come.

In terms of facilities, obviously, we get support for capital projects—£8 million. It's great to have that support, but if we look at the number of applications we have in terms of continuing to build facilities, we could always do with more money, understanding that part of the conversation is very challenging in terms of the budgets. But the impact of local decisions, potential pool closures—all these things come together to have an impact.

There are probably a couple of things I'd just add to that, if I can. We were really grateful to the Welsh Government for a contribution to the cost-of-living crisis last year, which we distributed to the sector, and I know our partners in the sector were very grateful for that support. Obviously, that isn't there this year, in the year we're currently in.

When it comes to the capital, clearly there's been at least a 25 per cent increase in costs of any capital projects, so that eats in massively to our capital allocation that we can distribute. And as Tanni has said, the number of applications we receive far outweighs the actual amount that's available to distribute. So, the demand is enormous. It's an area of the sector that was disregarded for so many years. We had the glory days of the initial lottery introduction where we built world-class facilities, brand new—Britain's first velodrome, first indoor athletics track. They didn't exist in the UK, and we built them with the support of partners like local authorities and governing bodies back in that heyday. But there is now a lack of capital for this sector to benefit from, and a 25 per cent increase in costs at least.

It's a very challenging picture. Thank you for outlining that. I think it was last year, Brian, when you'd been giving evidence, I think with Owen Hathway—it might have been the year before last—that we were talking about the effect that poverty has on sports participation at grass-roots level. I think it might have been Owen who had been talking about when parents are aware that their children aren't getting enough food, they might be reluctant to allow them to take part in sports because they don't want to make them exert themselves so much that they get more hungry. Is that something that you're anecdotally seeing more of a problem with? 

I don't think it's more of a problem. It's as stark as it was then, I guess. The statistics we have show that those in the most deprived areas of Wales are 30 per cent less likely to take part in physical activity and sport. And there are lots of reasons for that, including cost of actual participation, but also those kinds of impacts that sport can make you more hungry if you're very active. 

On the flip side of that, there have been some excellent examples in the sector of Fit and Fed schemes. Obviously that was an injection of support directly for those kinds of initiatives. And what some of those schemes found, certainly the ones that rugby ran, were that the parents themselves needed to be fed, not just the children, which was a really tragic state of affairs. 

But it does show, also, what impact sport can make positively here in terms of trying to make people realise that there are opportunities for them, because they do exist, and we've just got to make them affordable. That's the challenge for us in the sector: making the opportunities affordable.

We're going to need to rely far more heavily on the voluntary part of the sector than we have maybe done. Historically we might have—we've probably shifted away from it a little. We're going to have to go back, because the money needs to go further, and volunteers are going to be vital here for us. But it's also good for the volunteers. It's great for their mental health and well-being as well. So, there will need to be a focus on increasing voluntary activity to try and address some of those issues we identified last time when it comes to activity in the most poor areas of Wales. 

Thank you. And since our committee published the report looking at sports participation in those areas that don't have the same benefits and don't always have the same investment, have you had any discussions with the Welsh Government that have arisen from some of the recommendations we made in that report?

They do form part of our continual discussions really, mainly because our new investment approach is predicated on investing in those areas that most need it, and through the sports that children are telling us they most want to do, or currently can't do—latent demand.

So, yes, they do form part of our continual discussions with the Welsh Government. There were a couple in those recommendations that were specific to Government, outside our control or even our influence, really. So they don't, but on the ones that there's an overlap with, we definitely still have regular quarterly meetings with officials and biannual meetings with Tanni and the Minister as well, which form part of the agenda. 

I think the funding model is quite exciting. Obviously, there's evaluation of it as we go forward, but we're moving away from focusing very heavily on medals, because there's lots of research that shows it inspires some people, but it doesn't inspire everybody.

Actually, the funding and support we give to governing bodies and working in partnership is about getting to a different set of people, because if we don't get people being physically active then we don't have any pathways. So, I think that model is really important. And it's interesting to see what's now happening in England. Sport England are making a big announcement this week about changing their funding model. Obviously, they have a different amount of money to us, but, actually, I'd like to think we've had some influence on them. 

Thank you so much. 

I'll stick with the cost of living to start. Brian, you mentioned the influence or the effects of the cost-of-living pressures not being felt equally geographically across the country, and that that impacted the decisions you made in terms of how you resourced, and where. Can you give us a flavour of exactly what goes into that decision-making process? Is there some kind of formula that we're looking at that really bakes that in? Can you paint that picture a bit better for us?

A majority—around about 60 per cent—of our income goes out to partners, and those partners vary. They are governing bodies of sport, they are local authorities, they are national partners of some description, or third sector. We treat them differently. There's a model for governing bodies in terms of the data that we hold on them, on sport, and what people are telling us they want to do. Local authorities will be more predicated on the index of multiple deprivation and data from that aspect. And then, on national partners, it's a bit more difficult, because we don't hold specific data on national partners. So, a national partner, for example, would be StreetGames, Urdd Gobaith Cymru, Disability Sport Wales. We don't hold sport-specific information on those partners, so we need to do it on a principles basis: what are they trying to achieve against our strategy and the vision for sport? So, there are three methods of investing. 

And in terms of those national partners—you mentioned some of them there—are you ensuring, from your perspective, that they're doing work in some of those geographic areas of deprivation that you've identified, or is it just a principles-based model?  

Most of them are national. So, the Urdd do work—incredible work, in fact—nationally and not just through the Welsh language either, but, importantly, they do it through the Welsh language at the same time. So, most of them are national. The local or more regional work is done through our reactive grant scheme that anyone can apply to, provided they're constituted or have a bank account that has more than one signatory, they're not a local authority—clubs, for example. So, a lot of that regional or local stuff is done through our reactive application schemes. 

But the other aspect that we launched, two years ago now, that we're still working on is the sport partnerships model. So, we've launched Actif North Wales. West Wales is now set up as well with Swansea University as the lead, and just appointed a new chair, I believe, of that partnership, and there are plans for three others—central south, Gwent and mid. And those are the aspects that, hopefully, the national partners and governing bodies will work with to work in those regions, and do some specific work against the vision for sport.

Thanks. I wanted to move on to inflation and the impact that's having on your budget. You mentioned the increase in capital costs by about 25 per cent. Can you give us an indication of the impact that inflation is having on your budget, and perhaps on other things that we wouldn't, on the surface, think about? 

As I said earlier, about 60 per cent goes out to partners, so the impact is being felt by them, if you like, for 60 per cent of our budget. The remainder in-house budget, we're trying to be pragmatic with what we do; we're trying to save costs. Some of our commitments, though, are long-term commitments, like the utility costs of our centre in Cardiff. They're difficult to change, difficult to have an impact on. Although we're not not necessarily wedded to pay increases in the public sector the Welsh Government might make, we tend to align with that, so there's an issue there, going forward. But I'd say we're pretty lean, and therefore it is difficult when costs go up, and there is no doubt that we have passed a little on to our customer base. So, catering costs at the national centre have gone up. Gym membership we've managed to keep down, or keep static, but there will come a time next year when we'll need to look at that. So, it is difficult, but I'm quite proud of our internal mechanisms and our finance team especially, and the way they do manage to make the budget that we do receive work. We're very fortunate we get lottery support, but there's a limit on how much lottery you can use on yourself as a distributor. So, that's not always the answer for us.

Yes. And you mentioned there passing some of the costs on, or some of the inflationary pressures on. Is that not undermining, if you like, the very first point that we made about the impact that's having on people who can least afford it? 

There's no doubt that those inequalities have been exacerbated not only by COVID previously, but now by the cost-of-living crisis—100 per cent. But, for me, that supports our decision three years ago to change the investment model to make it focused on those areas of society that need public support most when it comes to sport and physical activity. Sport, let's face it, is brilliant at doing what it's always done—traditional sport—especially in Wales. We've got a very, very proud track record, but if we need to make a difference wider than just sports participation per se, we've got to invest in the right areas, and that's what the three investment streams try to do. It's only just started, though, so we're not going to see the impact for a while, but, for me, it supports the board's decision three years ago to change the way we invest in the sector.

Tom—

Sorry, could I just add really briefly that it's what people want to do? We've got the stats that show that people want to do walking. If they're doing outdoor activities, it's canoeing and kayaking. We say 'sport', but also we mean it in a wider, physical activity sense, because some people want to do organised sport and some people want to do more the physical activity. So, I think, again, the data that we're getting through is really helpful in identifying what people want to do and what they would like to do and that they can't currently do. It's joining all those things up together.

Thank you so much. I think Llyr has a supplementary.

Yes. I suspect it's too simplistic, but there's a direct correlation between the level of investment, capital and revenue in sport, and levels of participation—is there? Can we say that?

I think it's a very simple equation. I'd add to it that, if that was the only equation we had at our disposal, we wouldn't make enough impact. We need to bring in other avenues of support as well that are available to Government—cross-sector support—because that will make a huge difference. We're about to launch, this side of Christmas, the social return on investment figures we've got from Sheffield Hallam University. They're incredibly encouraging. They're no surprise to us who work in the industry, that sport contributes massively above just purely for sport reasons. It contributes so much to the wider economy, to the health and well-being of the nation—I mean, staggering figures. For every pound, £4.44 return on social investment. That's massive. But it is a complex picture. So, imagine what that figure would be if we had a bit more joined-up thinking between education and public health and sport. It could be staggeringly impressive. So, there is a correlation, for sure. I would like to see a more complex correlation with other sectors of Government.

Some of the reassurance is that the data that's coming through on social return fits in with lots of other worldwide research on the impact of sport and physical activity. And the numbers are really important. But Brian's absolutely right—we've got to be looking at in-school, after-school. We've got to join it all up.

So, with diminishing funds, we're seeing an increase in prominence or emphasis from you and others on these other elements that need to be understood and valued and utilised.

Correct.

So, is that the recalibration that you're going through at the moment?

There is definitely a bit of recalibration and the investment approach—

In targeting the demographic groups et cetera—that's what's happening.

Yes, very much so.

But I think that was happening anyway. Regardless of cost of living, I think we recognise it's really important to tie all those things up together.

Sure, but probably cost of living has accelerated the necessity to do that, I'd imagine. Or is that too cynical, maybe?

No. I said earlier those inequalities have been exacerbated, so it probably does defend it. Whether then we need to shift the model even further, potentially, the model is currently what it is in terms of the gravitas we give to different areas of inequality that we're trying to address. But that's the beauty of the model. We can change. We do annual funding to partners, so we can change the model. It has been difficult to change it as it is, because some sports, as I said earlier as well, are really good at what they do, and they want to keep doing it, but we're forcing a little bit of change on them. And the sector has responded magnificently, because no-one likes change in the round, but we have asked our partners to change quite a bit. We could do it even further if necessary.

Sure. I am taking liberties here, I know—just one last question, if I may. You mentioned annual funding. Of course, as somebody who's worked in the third sector previously, annual funding is an anathema, because you don't know what's happening from one year to another. So, I'm sure, as an organisation, you would be concerned if you were subject to annual funding. So, how are you managing that?

It's a very good point. Following the last election to the Senedd, we had a term-of-government remit letter and indicative funding, but, obviously, that's now under discussion anyway. So, it is always difficult. When we do make awards, we give indicative, long-term figures, but everyone applies every year.

Caveated, yes. Okay, thank you.

Building on that, then, how would a flat or reduced budget in 2024-25 impact your work?

We've done some modelling. Again, with 60 per cent of our income going out, it will be very difficult not to pass some of that change, if necessary, on to partners. We will try and absorb as much as possible, and our initial guesstimate, if you like—we had a meeting with the board, and we've got a board coming up at the end of this month where we'll present some further detail—we guesstimate we could probably absorb circa 50 per cent of it, if there was a cut. If it stands still, the inflationary impact we might be able to absorb and not pass on. But if there was a cut, we would have to pass on probably about 50 per cent of it, I think.

Okay. Thank you. 

Okay. Diolch. Moving on to participation, your 2022-23 report looking at school-age participation identified an 'alarming drop', in your words. Do you think that you have the resources that would be sufficient to drive the change that's necessary to address that alarming drop?

Bluntly, no. Again, earlier I talked about the collaboration and co-operative work with other areas of Government. And we did some pilots—we did twelve pilots—with schools in terms of activity beyond the school day last year, and the results were incredibly positive. And what we've done since then is work with colleagues in education to see how we can extend that and make it more widely available. Sadly, that has come to a bit of a pause. Were that to be reinitiated and the momentum gained again, I think we could, but it would need partnering with other areas of Government, like education.

The feedback and the narratives from the 12 pilots were incredibly positive about what children were doing after school, how they were then attentive—behavioural improvements, attendance improvements were fantastic. And we chose the areas specifically to try and address significant problems that had been identified in those areas. So, I think, without that collaboration, it will be difficult to drive the change that's necessary.

And I've seen some of that first-hand in terms of schools that I visited, in terms of ability to concentrate, behaviour, academic achievement. If you go to a school, you can always tell the child that they don't want you to talk to for different reasons, whether it's behaviour, and actually talking to young people about the difference they felt, the confidence—. But this lifelong love of sport needs to be in-built from a really young age, recognising that schools can't do everything, because there is responsibility from parents and community. But school has a big impact on how young people see themselves.

And some of these inequalities go way back—go back as long as I've been alive—in terms of how girls engage and don't engage, and where the drop-out is, experience of lessons. There's the timing, of how much time you have within a lesson to deliver something that's meaningful and builds that love. What I would hope is that everyone goes through school loving physical activity, but, actually, it's how you teach people to understand it's important. So, if they don't love it, they need to understand how important it is to their future lives.

Tom, I think, wants to come in with a supplementary here. 

Just to follow up on that very point, I think you make a very good point in terms of the problems. What's the solution? How do you get people to love sport from that early age?

Some of the positives we found from our survey, certainly the schools sport survey, are really encouraging and optimistic. Ninety-three per cent of the children surveyed said they wanted to do more sport. That's a great opportunity. That is something to build on. Clearly, we need to grasp that opportunity.

There's also a huge unmet demand, which is from around about 56 per cent of young people up to the age of 16—their demands are not being met from the offer. So, we need to change the offer or look at additionality to the offer, so some of these urban sports—skateboarding, BMX, climbing—these sports that the International Olympic Committee have suddenly decided that seem to be important to them.

So, from your perspective, changing the narrative, if you like, around young people's engagement with sport could be built around changing the nature of the sports that—

Yes, listening to what they're saying. That's what the school sport survey's designed to do, to ask them what it is they want to do. Ashamedly, we've not invested much in basketball over the years, as a body. But it's coming out as the No. 1 sport that young people want to do. So, we have to change it, and that's what the investment approach does. It responds as much as it can to what young people are telling us they want to do, what their needs are and what their demands are. 

But also, I think we've got a responsibility, if you take a body like basketball, it's helping them build the capacity and capability as well, not just suddenly saying, 'Right, we're going to give you this huge increase', because, actually, we need to help and support that development. And I think Brian's right: some of what we see as the newer sports are really exciting in terms of how they engage young people, how they support each other, less structure. There are so many opportunities in terms of that, but some of that comes back to facilities and place as well. Skate parks have to be in the right place with the right environment around them; people have to feel safe. So, there are lots of spinning plates.

Sorry. Really sorry, one final question. If your strategy, if you like, is to follow the popularity—a demand-led approach, if you like—how are you supporting those sports that perhaps fall out of favour or fall out of fashion and may come in the future? How do you ensure that those structures you mention, which are in place in those sports, don't fall away?

I was going to add to Tanni's points, really, as well, so I'm glad you've asked that because it is important we don't throw the baby out with the bath water here. Some of the traditional sports do an incredible amount of work and the quantities of people taking part in those sports are significant. So, we have to try and strike that balance and make sure we don't just ignore that area, otherwise you could be making gains in some areas of society and sports and ignoring the others, and we try not to do that. So, that's why the model does give cognisance to the fact that popularity of existing sports does feature, but the cake has been the same size. So, we're trying to do more with the same size cake so it does get redistributed, and that's what I meant earlier when I said change is difficult for some people. You're effectively just redistributing the same amount of money to try and do more, and that means some will be getting less. But we should not ignore them, because they do form an important part of the findings we're getting from the school sport survey. 

It's rather wonderful that the public gallery is actually full of young people at the moment. So, I know that you've got your—[Inaudible.]

I'm just putting a hand up. Who wants to do basketball?

But, actually, as we're talking about young people's participation in sport, I'm really glad that there are so many young people here to be able to actually listen to what is being said, because it is for all of you, of course, that we want to be getting this right. 

I was 'young people' once.

I know, I know. I like to think of myself as being young, but I'm really not. It's wonderful to have you here, really.

In fact, and to come back to that point, because we've spoken before about the emotional relationship that young people have with sport, particularly in school, and you were talking, Tanni, about the lifelong relationship with sport, with physical activity, and that love that needs to be nurtured, and, sometimes, how that isn't always nurtured in school, possibly because—. Do you think that there's more that could be done? Is there more support that could be made available so that, for those young people who don't see themselves as being very good at sport, they can still have a love of it and that it's not all about being the best, actually, it's just taking part that can be something that you can love to do? I'm a runner and I'm terrible at running. Do you think there's more that could be done with that kind of thing?

I think so. I think that's where the funding model is quite useful, actually, in terms of moving away from targets—so, us moving away from Commonwealth Games targets for medals—because it's recognising that—. In the past, we've definitely valued probably sporty boys more than sporty girls. There are years and years of things that we're dealing with here that we need to overcome. But that's where, I think, also where the sports partnerships have an impact, in terms of that local knowledge and understanding; it's connecting to people. People come in to sport at lots of different times and, even as someone who loves sport and physical activity, you drop in and out depending what's happening in work and what's happening with your family life and all those different things. And, I think, in the past, we looked at it in a very binary way: people were either sporty or not sporty, and I think what we're able to do is be much smarter in understanding those differences about how people are able to participate, which, I think, is really important to be able to do.

If I may just add as well, my predecessor, Sarah Powell, always used to say, 'Everyone has a personal podium' and that's what we're trying to provide. And a couple of other things, we ran a summit last year, and we brought over some colleagues from Norway who, seemingly, are on the same journey as us, in terms of trying to provide an inclusive sport offer, and one of the things that resonated with us from one of the keynote speakers was, 'Stop looking for the talented athlete, and look for the talent in everyone.' That sums up what we're trying to do with some of the work with governing bodies.

And then the final piece is we've literally launched this week, when it comes to schools, something called Citbag, which is a resource for teachers in terms of how they can present sport in a more inclusive way for everyone, not just those who might be regarded as sporty at the outset. So, there are a few things there that resonate with your point, I think.

Thank you—

I think PE is a really difficult subject to deliver, because everyone comes at it from different starting points, a different experience. If you've played that sport outside school, if you're six or seven, you might seem to be supertalented, whereas, actually, you've just had more exposure to it. So, getting that balance to include everybody is not an easy thing to do, but it's really important to do that. My own experience is that I tried about 10 more sports before I found wheelchair racing, and it was only because I was rubbish at everything else that my PE teacher was just like, 'Oh, go and do that.' But, that's really important to find—. And I wasn't good for years, but it's finding something that you enjoy. So, you need that exposure to lots of different things.

And more young people were walking into the room just as they were actually hearing what I think is an inspiring thing to be hearing from you, about how even for people who excel, it's not always about you taking to something straight away or that you're good at every single sport; it's finding what's right for you and nurturing that love. So, I think that was really valuable for the young people who've just come in to be able to hear that as well.

You mentioned Norway being on a similar journey, but, of course, I have seen in the papers that their funding is three times higher than it is for you here in Wales. So, maybe the journey is the same, but it's comparatively easier, I'd imagine, if you've got more resource. Anyway—

I think you could say the same about New Zealand, as well. Funding is—. But they also are separate countries in the Olympic movement, whereas we're part of UK, but that is—

Well, hey, now you're talking my language, but there we are, we won't go there. [Laughter.] Okay, coming back to schools, then, clearly, we have a new school curriculum, so what opportunities are there there for us to amplify and accelerate, maybe, interest in sport or participation in sport, using the new curriculum?

It's a real challenge. We, obviously, come under the area of learning and experience of health and well-being. It is about bringing teachers and the education system on a journey with us, so Citbag, as a digital resource, is one of the efforts we're making to try and allow teachers and the educational establishments to focus on sport in that area of learning and experience. But there is a risk that some teachers who don't look at sport in a positive light might not give enough focus to it. It comes back, again, to us working more collaboratively with our education colleagues if possible on this, and we are making some strides.

The thing that I mentioned earlier that's on pause, the daily active offer, is key, because that is wider than just the curriculum; that is how you get to school, what you do at break times, what you do after school, and then, hopefully, with the curriculum as well, teachers providing sport or physical activity as an offer as part of that area of learning. It's crucial. We are talking about future generations here, and I'm sure you hear a lot about the importance of education, but, for us, it's a key plank of our work.

You mentioned what you do after school, and the active beyond the school day pilots. I know the committee has had a view in the past about making greater use of some of the resources that schools have for the wider community after school hours. What are the pilots telling us, and, again, without maybe greater investment, because I suppose there's a cost in terms of keeping some of these facilities open and accessible beyond school times, what can be achieved?

I'd argue it's a false economy not to do it, because of the results we'll get from the social return on investment when we do launch them this side of Christmas will show that if we don't do it, the cost is enormous, rather than not the cost of giving the money or the resource in the first place. I think the costs are not high. We're making use of something that's already been built. The Government deserves some credit for the twenty-first century schools programme, that it's continued, and the facilities that are being built are fantastic. There's the community schools programme that we've now tapped into in terms of resource availability as well, on the capital side. So, it would be a false economy not to, and I think there's an appetite for it.

The 12 pilots—again, as I mentioned—demonstrated the difference it makes to those children that are engaged in activities after school on a school site. One of the things we do know is about rurality and the challenges of rurality. If the children are already at school, then you need to provide on the school site, rather than transport them around everywhere, because that is a false economy. So, I really want to increase that momentum that we garnered through the daily active initial discussions with education if we can, because a lot of work has gone into it, and I think the benefits are significant.

I can't remember off the top of my head, but the percentage of sports facilities that are behind school gates is significant.

Is it? Yes.

I'll send you the figure.

Please, yes.

But it's actually quite surprising to people who aren't involved in sport, so Brian is right in terms of: the facilities are there; we should be much smarter in how we use them. And I think if young people can do activities outside the school hours in spaces that they know, there's a lot of connection to that. As you leave school—. It's a bit like if you go and visit your GP and your GP tells you you need to do more exercise: the further you are away from your GP surgery, your connection to it falls way. So, some of the success that's seen, certainly in England, in terms of social prescribing and actually having physical activity built into GP surgeries, you're literally walked out of the surgery into a physical activity programme, and it's those connections. So, I think we need to be looking at some of that to see how we can bring that into schools. I mean, personal view, I'd extend the school day; I know that's not particularly easy to do. But, actually, we've got to be really thoughtful about what we do to change the pattern.

It's worth pointing out that in those pilots, it's not about asking teachers to do more—

Yes, sorry, yes. Yes, yes.

—at the end of the school day. It is about bringing people in to provide the offer that the young people have asked for. So, some of the sports in the pilots were very niche, but that is what was being asked for, and you get a positive response.

Yes, sorry.

That's all right, my parents were teachers.

Yes, it's not teachers, yes. [Laughter.]

Okay, just finally on participation rates, then. There are many factors that obviously play into this. To what extent do you think there's a link between participation in sport and the ability to watch sport on television? Because we, as a committee, have looked at—. Recently, we were scrutinising Westminster, the UK Government Minister on sports broadcasting, amongst other things, and more and more sports are going behind a pay wall, making them increasingly inaccessible for people, especially in a cost-of-living crisis. Is there any research out there, or do you have any inclination as to whether that can have a direct impact? Because I think of cricket, for example; when cricket went over to Sky, all of a sudden, it just disappeared off my radar. So, I'm just wondering whether there is anything out there that tells us a story of that impact.

I've seen data on how young people consume sport and other programmes, so they don't tend to watch in a linear way any more. If this then is dependent on what access to phones or internet they've got, and cost of living is having an impact on that, but actually, young people are just consuming things in a very different way. There's a huge increase in what they watch on YouTube, clips, not necessarily watching a whole programme, or they box-set programmes, and that will have some influence on sport. [Inaudible.]—if you can't watch it, I do think you need to see some of it to be able to connect to it.

And you can see it, of course, but it wouldn't necessarily be live, because if you're watching it back on something, then it doesn't have the same appeal, I'd imagine.

It's a really interesting question. I don't think we do have a lot of data on it.

No, not on sport.

But as Tanni has said, the absorption of information is very different for the future generations. I'd have thought there is probably a link between broadcast sport and those traditional sports, but those non-traditional sports, the urban sports, the newer sports, they're not broadcast, but children still want to do them, so there's obviously another avenue that they're digesting. I'm fairly sure most young people, or certainly young boys, can probably name the National Basketball Association teams in America; well, that's not on terrestrial telly—it never has been. But it is an area of research, I think, that probably could throw up some interesting data in terms of helping inform us about what we invest in.

There is out-of-date data from years and years ago that shows—it's probably the late nineties—how young people connect to sports idols, and so men play five-a-side and they score a goal and they celebrate the same way Ronaldo does/did, whereas girls don't connect to that. But that's really, really old data. So, the impact of the 2012 games, the Commonwealth Games we've had in the UK and the impact of the Lionesses is going to radically change, I think, how boys and girls see sport. I was on a train the other day and a young family with two boys were talking about female footballers, which, a couple of years ago, they never would have done. So, we can't underestimate the power of some of those things, where there's a direct correlation and then there's the ability to go on—it's quite complicated.

Yes, sure. Okay, thank you.

Thank you, and thank you again to the young people— 

Could I—?

Yes, certainly, Carolyn. In fact, Tom, because of time, would you be happy if we went to Carolyn next and then came back to your question? So, Carolyn, go ahead and then you can go with your questions that were going to be later as well.

Which were—

Eleven to 13.

Okay, thank you. I'm just moving on to participation. I had a discussion with you before about the waiting list for the local basketball club. Basketball is something that people can just play in multi-use games areas and local community areas and I think that's really helpful. But very often, young people say they need somebody to just lead them and encourage them. And it's really hard to get volunteers these days, especially given that, I think, they've not returned after COVID as well and maybe people are working longer hours. I'm just wondering if there's something we can do to try and encourage more volunteers. And I know people also worry about insurance, health and safety, risk assessment—

Safeguarding.

Safeguarding. There are all these modern things now, which they see as barriers, which are important. So, are there templates available for people to help them with that, to overcome those sorts of barriers and encourage them to volunteer again?

Yes, there are. There's an actual specific figure, even though we haven't announced the social return on investment in sport results yet. In terms of volunteering, research shows that there is a £400 million contribution in Wales through sport from volunteering. And on top of that being just a benefit to sport in the community, there's a benefit to the individuals taking part themselves as well. That's unquantified, but I'm sure it's significant. 

In terms of clubs and local sport, when they apply to our schemes, as well as getting, hopefully, the financial support, there are things that come with that financial support in terms of guidance and advice. And there are organisations out there that we try and partner with, as well as the governing bodies of sport, to try and help provide that support and guidance for volunteers. 

For basketball in this case, we're gradually increasing the capability, or trying to increase the capability, of Basketball Wales to provide that support. At the moment, it's pretty restricted because of the amount they get from us, but it will grow over the next two years, and, therefore, that support should be available to clubs.

I know from experience that we get people who will volunteer through Duke of Edinburgh's Award schemes—young people—and that seems to work very well, but then they may go off to university. I'm just thinking about, in their spare time, trying to capture those back again.

I'm going to hand you over to Tanni, as she's on the Duke of Edinburgh's Award board.

Yes, I should declare an interest; I'm chair of the Duke of Edinburgh's Award, so we could probably have a separate conversation. I was going to say this before you mentioned DofE, but, actually, young people volunteering is really important, and young people's time is very different from when I was young and in terms of how they see giving back. And I think there are huge opportunities in getting young people not just to think about playing sport, but also the value they get from being a volunteer. Actually, you can be very physically active being a volunteer, but some of that is about giving confidence to young people. So, there are some sports like skateboarding where it just happens. I was talking to a family recently where they took their young daughter to a skate park and there were lots of older, teenage boys, who all looked a bit scary, but the boys basically embraced this young girl, were teaching her tricks, supporting her, and they didn't need a volunteer to make that happen, unlike a sport where you may need a referee or an umpire. I think we've got to get young people to think about how they can do it themselves, not waiting necessarily for an adult to come along and organise them. But that requires giving young people the confidence to do it and for them to feel safe in the space that they're in.

It's worth mentioning the Young Ambassadors scheme at this point, which is still going on. It's a legacy of London 2012 and has been a huge success in Wales. The Youth Sport Trust, ourselves and Young Ambassadors and the governing bodies have done a fantastic job of making sure that young people do see an opportunity to volunteer, and they're often the best people to be those volunteers as well. I saw a great sign—. Squash Wales ran a junior tournament the other day, and there was a sign saying, 'Winners need to stay on to referee the next match'. I'd never seen that before and I thought that was a brilliant little initiative. 

And through that, we've had a young person who has sat on the Sport Wales board, because also that's the other part I'm really keen to look at. We need to be looking now at the future leaders in terms of the people who sit on committees, who sit on boards, who want to take our place—not just yet. [Laughter.]

They're in the audience. Come down. [Laughter.]

They are, yes. There are more young people walking in. 

And again, it comes back to personal experience, because I started on the board of Sport Wales in my early twenties, and that had a huge impact. So, we need to be looking at that because we also need people to be doing all the different roles in sport and physical activity. 

And there's also the Welsh baccalaureate as well as the DofE. But, like you said, I think it's confidence in those young people for them to do it. I've had the same conversations as well, trying to join people up, but it's giving them that confidence. Right, I need to move on, I know, Delyth.

Equality, diversity and inclusion. The annual report says that to improve inclusion in sport, the scale of change needed is significant, and the timescale for the level of change is probably generational. So, do Sport Wales have the resources to create this change?

Well, we're starting at home, to start with. So, we're trying to make some changes internally. With some of the resource issues, that is quite difficult, but we've had some success in changing the demographic of our workforce internally, which is a start. But, of course, the wider impact will be within the sector. So, the investment model has been changed to give a focus on ED&I, but it is a long project, sadly. It'd be great if we could do it a lot quicker than maybe it is going. But the appetite within our partners is there. They do realise that sport needs to be more inclusive, it needs to be for everyone. The benefits, as we've said several times this morning, are significant to society, and we're missing areas of society, so we're missing some benefits that could be delivered. 

There's a real desire within Sport Wales and the sector to make a change here, and that is optimistic. We're not pushing water uphill, but it is still difficult to do. I'm sure we will see the benefit, and we are starting to see the benefits of people understanding what we mean by it, what we mean by inclusion, because it does mean different things to different people. But, at the end of the day, we'd see it as making sport available to everyone, and it's safe and fun, it's enjoyable, and it's providing benefit. So, it's a high aspiration, but we've got an organisation and a sector that really is chomping at the bit to try to do it. 

Great. Thank you. And can I just ask how has Sport Wales changed in how it works with sport governing bodies in the wake of the allegations against the WRU earlier this year?

That would come under the area of governance, the capability framework of our investments. We try to make sure that those in receipt of public money are hitting certain standards, that they invest properly and we can have some assurance. It is difficult when you're not a regulator, but there are aspects that we can make sure are in place. It does depend on the amount of investment we're making, what a partner needs to demonstrate. No doubt, the results of the fairly imminent review of the WRU will inform what changes we might need to make in that area as well for other partners. So, it's an area that's always going to need a lot of work, but we do have a dedicated team at Sport Wales looking at the governance aspects of the partners we invest in. It's not an exact science because you're dealing with people and culture sometimes as well. We are probably further along than we were five years ago in terms of assurances, but it's a continual piece of work.

Thank you. Thank you, Chair.

Diolch. We're into our final 10 minutes now and we'll finally go to Tom.

Just to follow up on that, what have you both personally learned from the WRU situation?

That there are issues in sport that reflect society. Sport is not isolated—an island of problems—it just reflects what problems there are in society on a wider basis. The optimist in me sees that sport can be controlled to improve that. I have no way of knowing how to control society, but I think we, as a sector, can control sport better and make it a beacon of improved behaviour. I've learnt that when you try and establish a review of this significance and scale, it is difficult; that you need to get your terms of reference accurate, otherwise it can go off in all sorts of directions and never end. So, hopefully, that won't be the case here—the terms of reference were very well thought through and given a lot of prominence before the panel was established. And that it isn't just one sport that has an issue; we will learn something from this for the sector.

Sport at its best is incredible in terms of how it brings people together and what it does for people on an individual level and communities and all these different things. I think having been involved in sports administration for a long time and specifically around duty of care, I think you can—. We're never complacent about it. So, you know, when allegations come within our remit, we take them very seriously and take action. I think what's really important is that when the report comes out, we have to take a bit of time to absorb it. I don't know what's going to be in the report or the recommendations that are going to be made, but, actually, it's then looking at how that actually impacts. The WRU is a big governing body; it's how that impacts on all the different governing bodies and sectors in Wales. And some of the solutions may be different whether you're a very small governing body or whether you're a mid-sized one, but, actually, it's then filtering that good practice through. It can happen even in—. You know, there are a lot of very good governing bodies that have done everything and just done lots of really good things and something can happen. So I think we're never complacent about it, but it's taking action quickly and then making sure the recommendations are implemented in a timely manner.

I think there's a couple more things that I've just reflected upon. One is that although it does take a while to change culture sometimes in some of these areas that need attention, what I have seen is it can be done quickly sometimes as well—and credit to the WRU for making some of the changes that it has made in terms of the new independent chair, the new chief executive, changes at its board level. They've happened really quickly, so it can be done quickly sometimes, but it does take a crisis sometimes to focus attention. And other sports governing bodies, like the FAW, have also made similar strides forward. So, I've learnt it can be done more quickly. I've also learnt that they're not restricted to Wales or even the UK, these issues; they are global. Australia, New Zealand and Canada have all established integrity units of certain styles, different styles, to try and address some of these issues, but it comes back to the point that sport just reflects society. But we think we can make sport a beacon.

And there's a big discussion at UK level about integrity—does there need to be an ombudsman or not. I think with a Welsh hat on, if there is something that's established at a UK level, it has to serve Wales and Welsh athletes; we can't have get-out clauses for a Welsh athlete that happens to be training in England. It needs to be a UK thing. But we're not close at UK level to—. There's some really positive things around safeguarding we're discussing at a UK level, but in terms of an ombudsman and that side, we're not close to that yet.

And just finally on this, you mentioned the changes in WRU and the board, and so on. To what extent are you being kept informed of those changes, as or even before they're being announced?

Yes. I met with the new chair prior to the announcement, to see if there were any red flags. I was pleased that it seems like a really good appointment to me, and our relationship manager who works with rugby is being kept informed. The review itself is not being conducted by the WRU, so they have no role in informing us about where it is; that's Sport Resolutions. That sits with them. But the lines of communication have been good, as they are with all our partners, to be fair. I mentioned earlier that the sector is really positive and responsive and optimistic. I'm proud that some of the changes being made across the board in all governing bodies are positive ones. I also said it's a continual journey and it will be like that. We'll have to keep these changes and improvements going on.

I'm conscious of time, so I'm going to just move on very quickly to the health and well-being portion, which I was meant to ask you about. In your evidence, you said that you want to see evidence that the role sport plays in contributing to population health outcomes within Wales is valued and understood through policy areas. Is that happening? If not, why not, and what changes do you think need to be made?

I think it is recognised that there is a contribution, but there's so much pressure on those areas of Government, about reactive issues rather than long-term preventative areas. We clearly sit in the long-term preventative area of trying to support that sector of Government. I've said that the appetite is there, through us and our partners, to contribute to that. Is it being reflected? There is some positivity. If we look at the Actif North Wales sport partnership, they do have the health board around the table in a strategic way, and they have contributed financially to some initiatives that are being discussed up there for that region. I'd like to see that clearly accelerated and magnified not just in the sport partnerships, but maybe nationally through us as well. We're trying to set up a meeting with public health, between me, Tanni, and the chief exec and chair. I think, probably, it is something we need to accelerate in terms of our advocacy work as well.

I think it's really difficult when we're absolutely conscious of the pressure that everyone is under. If you just look at a local level, at the cost of looked-after children and things that are immediate, you can't delay some of those decisions. But, you're right—our ability as sport to impact the long term is really important, and we'll fight that corner, because it is the long-term health of a nation, and not just health but ability to compete and work, and not compete in sport but actually be a productive nation.

I think it was this committee that came up with a line that we use a lot, about sport being the most effective preventative health tool available to the Government. We stand by that, and I'm sure, hopefully, you guys do as well. You came up with the line. I think we need to do a bit more advocating at the highest levels, as well as operationally.

Just finally, where you do that public health work, because I imagine that has grown over the period of time Sport Wales has existed—I imagine that has grown—has that been reflected in the way your funding is allocated, to take account of some of that additional work with other partners?

Again, bluntly, no. I think there's an element of responsibility on us, though, as an organisation, to do that, as well as our partners in the sector. I think the partners can advocate as well. It's difficult as an arm's-length body. There's a fine line, isn't there, between pressurising Government and advocating, but there are organisations in the sector that can do more of that pressurising. It's ironic, really, isn't it, that, as a body responsible for sport, we need to be better at teamwork here. That's one of the foundations of sport in itself. So, I think maybe we need to look at ourselves and say, 'How can we do better, team wise, in improving it?'

Yes. I hate the phrase 'journey', but I can't think of a better one—the journey that we're taking the governing bodies on. It's been a change and the sector is incredibly positive, but it's about the governing bodies and all the different parts of the sector that we support, moving forward. 

Okay. Thank you. 

Great. Diolch yn fawr iawn. Thank you so much for your evidence. A transcript of what's been said will be sent so that you can check that it's a fair and accurate record of what's been said this morning. Thank you, both, very much for your time. Diolch yn fawr iawn. 

Diolch, Cadeirydd. Diolch yn fawr. 

And I'll just say at this juncture, to the young people, again, in the gallery, what a pleasure it's been to have you with us while we were taking evidence, particularly on young people's participation in sport. Thank you so much. The committee's going to be moving into private now, but it's been an absolute pleasure to have you here to listen to the evidence this morning. Thank you so much. Diolch yn fawr iawn.