Y Pwyllgor Cydraddoldeb a Chyfiawnder Cymdeithasol

Equality and Social Justice Committee

23/01/2023

Aelodau'r Pwyllgor a oedd yn bresennol

Committee Members in Attendance

Jane Dodds
Jenny Rathbone Cadeirydd y Pwyllgor
Committee Chair
Joel James Yn dirprwyo ar ran Altaf Hussain
Substitute for Altaf Hussain
Ken Skates
Peredur Owen Griffiths Yn dirprwyo ar ran Sioned Williams
Substitute for Sioned Williams
Sarah Murphy

Y rhai eraill a oedd yn bresennol

Others in Attendance

Hannah Blythyn Y Dirprwy Weinidog Partneriaeth Gymdeithasol
Deputy Minister for Social Partnership
Neil Buffin Dirprwy Gyfarwyddwr, Gwasanaethau Cyfreithiol, Llywodraeth Cymru
Deputy Director, Legal Services, Welsh Government
Neil Surman Dirprwy Gyfarwyddwr, Partneriaeth Gymdeithasol, Llywodraeth Cymru
Deputy Director, Social Partnership, Welsh Government
Sue Hurrell Pennaeth Caffael Gwaith Teg, Llywodraeth Cymru
Head of Fair Work Procurement, Welsh Government

Swyddogion y Senedd a oedd yn bresennol

Senedd Officials in Attendance

Angharad Roche Dirprwy Glerc
Deputy Clerk
Rachael Davies Ail Glerc
Second Clerk
Rhys Morgan Clerc
Clerk
Samiwel Davies Cynghorydd Cyfreithiol
Legal Adviser
Stephen Davies Cynghorydd Cyfreithiol
Legal Adviser

Cynnwys

Contents

1. Cyflwyniad, ymddiheuriadau, dirprwyon a datgan buddiannau 1. Introductions, apologies, substitutions and declarations of interest
2. Bil Partneriaeth Gymdeithasol a Chaffael Cyhoeddus (Cymru): Cyfnod 2—Trafod y gwelliannau 2. Social Partnership and Public Procurement (Wales) Bill: Stage 2—Consideration of amendments
Grŵp 1: Y Cyngor Partneriaeth Gymdeithasol: cadeirio, cyfarfodydd, a gweithdrefn (Gwelliannau 12, 15, 16, 18, 22, 25, 27, 28, 29, 31, 32, 34, 35, 38, 40, 41, 42, 1, 43, 48) Group 1: Social Partnership Council: chairing, meetings and procedure (Amendments 12, 15, 16, 18, 22, 25, 27, 28, 29, 31, 32, 34, 35, 38, 40, 41, 42, 1, 43, 48)
Grŵp 2: Y Cyngor Partneriaeth Gymdeithasol: cynrychiolwyr gwleidyddol (Gwelliannau 13, 17, 19, 21, 26, 30, 33, 37, 51) Group 2: Social Partnership Council: political representatives (Amendments 13, 17, 19, 21, 26, 30, 33, 37, 51)
Grŵp 3: Y Cyngor Partneriaeth Gymdeithasol: cynrychiolwyr gweithwyr (Gwelliannau 14, 20, 23, 24, 49, 50, 52) Group 3: Social Partnership Council: employer representatives (Amendments 14, 20, 23, 24, 49, 50, 52)
Grŵp 4: Y Cyngor Partneriaeth Gymdeithasol: enwebiadau gan Wales TUC Cymru (Gwelliannau 72, 94, 95) Group 4: Social Partnership Council: nominations by TUC Cymru Wales (Amendments 72, 94, 95)
Grŵp 5: Y Cyngor Partneriaeth Gymdeithasol: hyd penodiadau (Gwelliannau 36, 73, 39) Group 5: Social Partnership Council: duration of appointments (Amendments 36, 73, 39)
Grŵp 6: Is-grwpiau’r CPG (Gwelliannau 44, 74, 45, 46, 47) Group 6: Sub-groups of the SPC (Amendments 44, 74, 45, 46, 47)
Grŵp 7: Dyletswydd partneriaeth gymdeithasol (Gwelliannau 53, 96, 54, 97, 55) Group 7: Social partnership duty (Amendments 53, 96, 54, 97, 55)
Grŵp 8: Trefniadau adrodd partneriaeth gymdeithasol (Gwelliannau 56, 57, 58, 59) Group 8: Social partnership reporting arrangements (Amendments 56, 57, 58, 59)
Grŵp 9: Caffael cyhoeddus cymdeithasol gyfrifol (Gwelliannau 98, 99, 75, 100, 2, 101, 102, 103, 3, 104, 105, 4, 106, 60, 107, 61, 108, 109, 111, 112, 113, 114, 115) Group 9: Socially responsible public procurement (Amendments 98, 99, 75, 100, 2, 101, 102, 103, 3, 104, 105, 4, 106, 60, 107, 61, 108, 109, 111, 112, 113, 114, 115)
Grŵp 10: Cymalau gweithiau cyhoeddus cymdeithasol (Gwelliannau 62, 76, 63, 77, 78, 64, 65, 66, 67, 92) Group 10: Social public works clauses (Amendments 62, 76, 63, 77, 78, 64, 65, 66, 67, 92)
Grŵp 11: Y cod allanoli a’r gweithlu (Gwelliannau 5, 68, 6) Group 11: Outsourcing and workforce code (Amendments 5, 68, 6)
Grŵp 12: Cymalau gweithlu cyhoeddus cymdeithasol (Gwelliannau 69, 70) Group 12: Social public workforce clauses (Amendments 69, 70)
Grŵp 13: Strategaethau caffael (Gwelliannau 79, 110, 80, 81, 71, 82) Group 13: Procurement strategies (Amendments 79, 110, 80, 81, 71, 82)
Grŵp 14: Adroddiadau blynyddol (Gwelliannau 83, 7) Group 14: Annual reports (Amendments 83, 7)
Grŵp 15: Cofrestr gontractau (gwybodaeth gofrestradwy) (Gwelliannau 8, 84, 85, 9, 86, 93) Group 15: Contracts register (registrable interests) (Amendments 8, 84, 85, 9, 86, 93)
Grŵp 16: Gosod targedau caffael (Gwelliannau 87, 88, 89, 90, 91) Group 16: Setting of targets (Amendments 87, 88, 89, 90, 91)
Grŵp 17: Canllawiau a dod i rym (Gwelliannau 10, 11) Group 17: Guidance and coming into force (Amendments 10, 11)

Cofnodir y trafodion yn yr iaith y llefarwyd hwy ynddi yn y pwyllgor. Yn ogystal, cynhwysir trawsgrifiad o’r cyfieithu ar y pryd. Lle mae cyfranwyr wedi darparu cywiriadau i’w tystiolaeth, nodir y rheini yn y trawsgrifiad.

The proceedings are reported in the language in which they were spoken in the committee. In addition, a transcription of the simultaneous interpretation is included. Where contributors have supplied corrections to their evidence, these are noted in the transcript.

Cyfarfu’r pwyllgor yn y Senedd a thrwy gynhadledd fideo.

Dechreuodd y cyfarfod am 11:16.

The committee met in the Senedd and by video-conference.

The meeting began at 11:16.

1. Cyflwyniad, ymddiheuriadau, dirprwyon a datgan buddiannau
1. Introductions, apologies, substitutions and declarations of interest

Bore da. I'd like to welcome all Members to today's meeting of the Equality and Social Justice Committee. We've had apologies from Sioned Williams and Altaf Hussain, and I'd like to welcome Peredur Owen Griffiths and Joel James, who will be substituting for them throughout today's meeting. Our meeting is bilingual and simultaneous translation from Welsh to English is available. Are there any declarations of interest that anybody needs to make? I don't see any.

2. Bil Partneriaeth Gymdeithasol a Chaffael Cyhoeddus (Cymru): Cyfnod 2—Trafod y gwelliannau
2. Social Partnership and Public Procurement (Wales) Bill: Stage 2—Consideration of amendments

So we'll move straight on to the sole item of business for today, which is Stage 2 of the Social Partnership and Public Procurement (Wales) Bill. We will adhere to the marshalled list and take each group of amendments relating to that subject matter. I'll obviously call the mover of the lead amendment first and then any other person who wishes to speak, either initially as the mover of another amendment in that group, or any other Member who wishes to speak on the subject in question. 

Grŵp 1: Y Cyngor Partneriaeth Gymdeithasol: cadeirio, cyfarfodydd, a gweithdrefn (Gwelliannau 12, 15, 16, 18, 22, 25, 27, 28, 29, 31, 32, 34, 35, 38, 40, 41, 42, 1, 43, 48)
Group 1: Social Partnership Council: chairing, meetings and procedure (Amendments 12, 15, 16, 18, 22, 25, 27, 28, 29, 31, 32, 34, 35, 38, 40, 41, 42, 1, 43, 48)

So, the first group of amendments relates to the social partnership council chairing, meetings and procedure, and the lead amendment is amendment 12. I call on Joel James to move and speak to the lead amendment and any other amendments in that group. 

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 12 (Joel James).

Amendment 12 (Joel James) moved.

Thank you, Chair, for this important opportunity to contribute to the Social Partnership and Public Procurement (Wales) Bill. I wish to first of all speak to my own amendments. For the social partnership council to function in a manner that is to be expected, that is, one that shows impartiality and fairness in proceedings, I believe that an independent chair is necessary. For this reason, my amendments in this group will serve to replace the First Minister as chair of the social partnership council with an independent chair that is to be selected by the Senedd.

Chair, I also believe that it is important that the meetings of the social partnership council are effective and time efficient. For these reasons, my amendments in this group would also reduce the number of times that the SPC meets, guarantee that the SPC can continue to meet if the chair is not present, and ensure that any expenses claimed as part of participation in the council are reasonable. Furthermore, to enhance the quality of these meetings, amendment 43 will ensure that all meetings will be properly prepared for the meeting by having copies of the agenda for a meeting of the SPC to be published electronically at least 14 days before that meeting, or, if the meeting is convened at a shorter notice, then as soon as is reasonably practicable. As for amendment 1, I'm happy to support this amendment, as I believe it is right that any revisions must be consulted on with the SPC.

Thank you, Chair. The SPC is a Welsh Government body. I know of no other Executive bodies that have chairs appointed by the Senedd, so it's entirely appropriate that the First Minister, or for that matter, any other Minister or Deputy Minister within the Government should chair the council. So, I, I'm afraid, don't agree with Joel's proposal. 

11:20

Thank you, Chair. Thank you for the opportunity to speak briefly on this. I would agree with the point made by my colleague Ken Skates. It feels entirely appropriate that this important council is chaired by somebody with the stature and seniority as that of the First Minister. So, I don't support this amendment. Diolch yn fawr iawn. 

I'd now like to call on the Member in charge to speak to amendment 1, and any other of the amendments in front of us on this subject. 

Thank you, Chair. I'll speak to the Government's amendment 1 first. This amendment responds to the committee's Stage 1 recommendation No. 4, which proposed that a duty be placed on Welsh Ministers to consult with social partnership council members before making revisions to the council's procedures. As I indicated in my letter to the committee following the Stage 1 debate, the Government accepted recommendation 4, and as such has tabled this amendment to add a requirement on Welsh Ministers to consult with SPC members before making any revisions to the council's procedures. I therefore ask that the committee accepts this amendment. 

Turning to the remaining amendments in this group, tabled by Joel James, Members will know that the function of the social partnership council, as set out in the Bill, is to provide information and advice to the Welsh Ministers on relevant matters. It's entirely appropriate that the First Minister, or another Welsh Minister or Deputy Minister, should chair the council. I do therefore not agree with Joel James's proposal that the Senedd be given the power to appoint the chair of the SPC. The council is intended to be a Welsh Government body and not a committee of the Senedd. 

Amendment 40 would require the SPC to meet four times per year. My view is that this is unnecessarily prescriptive. Currently, the Bill states that the SPC must meet at least three times in each 12-month period. This is a minimum requirement. The SPC may choose to meet more than three times a year if it so wishes, but this would be a matter best decided by the SPC itself when it becomes operational. Amendment 43 would require SPC agendas to be published within a specified period ahead of each meeting. Again, I think this would be unnecessarily restrictive and would hinder the SPC's ability to respond in a flexible and agile way to changing circumstances. 

Finally, in relation to amendment 48, which relates to members' expenses, all those appointed to public office are bound by the seven principles of public life and have a duty to ensure the safeguarding of public funds. I would expect all members of the SPC or its constituent sub-groups to fully comply with the rules set by the Welsh Government regarding expenses, and that all claims for expenses are scrutinised before payment is made. So, on that basis, while I appreciate the spirit in which that amendment has been tabled, the Government will not be supporting amendment 48, solely on the basis that it isn't necessary.

So, in conclusion then, I ask Members to resist amendments 12, 15, 18, 22, 25, 27, 28, 29, 31, 32, 34, 35, 38, 40, 41, 42, 43, 48, and support amendment 1. Diolch.  

Thank you, Chair, and I'm disappointed that the Minister and others are not supporting my amendments in this group. I firmly believe that guaranteeing impartiality, effectiveness and efficiency for these meetings is in the best interests of all involved. Moreover, I do not see any specific need for the First Minister to chair these meetings, because they will still be in attendance, and it helps prevent representatives from simply stating what they think the First Minister wants to hear, which, given the status of the office, as outlined by my colleague Jane Dodds, could easily happen. Thank you. 

The question is that amendment 12 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We will now proceed to a vote on amendment 12. Will all those in favour please raise your hand? And all those against. So, one Member in favour, five against. So, that amendment falls. 

Gwelliant 12: O blaid: 1, Yn erbyn: 5, Ymatal: 0

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.

Amendment 12: For: 1, Against: 5, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected.

Joel, do you wish to move to amendment 15? Do you wish to put amendment 15? 

We move to group 2 now. We'll dispose of these amendments afterwards.

11:25
Grŵp 2: Y Cyngor Partneriaeth Gymdeithasol: cynrychiolwyr gwleidyddol (Gwelliannau 13, 17, 19, 21, 26, 30, 33, 37, 51)
Group 2: Social Partnership Council: political representatives (Amendments 13, 17, 19, 21, 26, 30, 33, 37, 51)

Okay. So, the second group of amendments relates to the social partnership council and its political representatives, and the lead amendment in this group is amendment 13. I call on Joel James to move and speak to the lead amendment and the other amendments in this group.

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 13 (Joel James).

Amendment 13 (Joel James) moved.

Thank you, Chair. Turning to my amendments, which comprise the entirety of this group, amendments 13, 17, 19, 21, 26 and 30 serve to increase the political representation on the social partnership council, therefore enabling a wider range of voices to be heard. It also helps improve scrutiny of the Welsh Government, because other political parties would have access to the advice that the Welsh Government is receiving. As to my remaining amendments, 33, 37 and 51, they seek to ensure that those who have been elected to represent the views of the Welsh people are able to represent their constituents in the social partnership council. Thank you.

Thank you, Chair. The social partnership council is not intended to be a political forum; it is meant to be a mechanism for bringing together Welsh Government and social partners in support of the duties set out in the Bill, and, more widely, our well-being goals. So, I do not support this amendment.

Thank you. Minister, do you wish to—? I beg your pardon. Sorry, I hadn't—. Ken Skates.

Thanks, Chair. Further to the comments made by Sarah Murphy, which I agree with, I'd also add that scrutiny of Welsh Government bodies takes place in the Senedd itself, through committee work and Siambr work, not in the bodies themselves, so I'd object to this group as well.

Diolch. The Government will not be accepting these amendments. Our vision for the SPC is as a formal channel through which employers and trade unions—specifically employer and worker representatives—are able to engage with Welsh Ministers, to work with us to reach consensus on issues of mutual interest and to provide us with advice to better inform policy development and support implementation. It's not intended to be a party-political forum, nor, as I mentioned in my previous remarks, some sort of glorified Senedd committee. The Government will therefore not be supporting these amendments.

Thank you, Chair. It's unfortunate, but not surprising, that the Minister and others haven't supported these amendments, but, unless you have voices that represent the diversity of opinion in Wales, it is not really a social partnership. And I'm concerned that the Deputy Minister is going to create an echo chamber for the Welsh Government to hear those opinions that it agrees with. Thank you.

The question is that amendment 13 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Object. So, all those in favour of amendment 13. And all those against. So, that's one in favour, five against, so amendment 13 falls.

Gwelliant 13: O blaid: 1, Yn erbyn: 5, Ymatal: 0

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 13: For: 1, Against: 5, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Grŵp 3: Y Cyngor Partneriaeth Gymdeithasol: cynrychiolwyr gweithwyr (Gwelliannau 14, 20, 23, 24, 49, 50, 52)
Group 3: Social Partnership Council: employer representatives (Amendments 14, 20, 23, 24, 49, 50, 52)

We now move to group 3, which relates to the social partnership council and the employer representatives. The lead amendment is from Joel James—amendment 14.

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 14 (Joel James).

Amendment 14 (Joel James) moved.

Thank you, Chair. I wish to speak to my amendments in this group concerning employer representatives. Firstly, amendments 14 and 20 will increase the number of representatives on the social partnership council, to include representatives of employers from small, medium and large businesses. For the SPC to be properly informed, it must draw on contributions from a wide range of views and experiences. By opening the door to representatives from small, medium and large businesses, we will be ensuring advice and a representative cohort of the private sector will be able to have their say. Small, medium and large businesses each have a different need and organise their voices differently to Government and trade unions. Having one body represent all these businesses is short-sighted, and we should strengthen the ability of businesses to convey their needs, therefore I propose having this extra representation.

As to amendments 23 and 24, these will further reinforce the contributions I previously described, by ensuring that employers from different sectors are represented in the SPC. Finally, amendments 49, 50 and 52 provide clear definitions of 'large businesses' et cetera, in order to facilitate my previous amendments.

11:30

Thank you. Does any other Member wish to speak on this group of amendments? The Minister in charge to respond.

Thank you, Chair. The Government will not be supporting amendment 14. The SPC is intended to be tripartite, with equal representation from social partners across the public, private and third sectors. Amendment 14 would increase the number of employer representatives on the council, but not worker representatives. This would create an imbalance, and as such is not one we can support.

In relation to amendment 23, I am unconvinced that there is a need to give priority status to local health boards and local authorities. The Bill relies on a definition of 'public bodies' set out in section 6 of the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015, all of whom are subject to the social partnership duties, and includes local authorities and local health boards. Making special provision for local health boards and local authorities is therefore unnecessary. 

As far as amendment 24 is concerned, I believe that ensuring businesses of all sizes are represented in the council is a matter that employer representatives will, without any legal requirement from us, give careful consideration to when making the nominations. And of course we will work with the sector to ensure that this is the case in practice.

Thank you, Chair. Again, it's unfortunate that these amendments are not being supported. I believe that depriving the SPC of the widest possible range of views will only serve to harm its performance in the long run. Thank you.

Thank you. The question is that amendment 14 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Amendment 14, all those in favour. And all those against. One Member in favour, five against, so amendment 14 falls.

Gwelliant 14: O blaid: 1, Yn erbyn: 5, Ymatal: 0

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 14: For: 1, Against: 5, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 15 (Joel James).

Amendment 15 (Joel James) moved.

So, all those in favour of amendment 15. And all those against. That's one in favour, five against. Amendment 15 falls.

Gwelliant 15: O blaid: 1, Yn erbyn: 5, Ymatal: 0

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 15: For: 1, Against: 5, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 16 (Joel James).

Amendment 16 (Joel James) moved.

The question is that amendment 16 be agreed to. Does any member object? [Objection.] All those in favour of amendment 16. All those against amendment 16. That's one Member in favour, five against. Amendment 16 falls.

Gwelliant 16: O blaid: 1, Yn erbyn: 5, Ymatal: 0

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 16: For: 1, Against: 5, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 17 (Joel James).

Amendment 17 (Joel James) moved.

The question is that amendment 17 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] All those in favour. And all those against. So, one in favour, five against. Amendment 17 falls.

Gwelliant 17: O blaid: 1, Yn erbyn: 5, Ymatal: 0

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 17: For: 1, Against: 5, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 18 (Joel James).

Amendment 18 (Joel James) moved.

The question is that amendment 18 be agreed. Does anybody object? [Objection.] All those in favour of amendment 18. And all those against. So, one in favour, five against. Amendment 18 falls.

Gwelliant 18: O blaid: 1, Yn erbyn: 5, Ymatal: 0

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 18: For: 1, Against: 5, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 19 (Joel James).

Amendment 19 (Joel James) moved.

Does any Member object? [Objection.] All those in favour of amendment 19. And all those against. One in favour, five against. Amendment 19 falls.

Gwelliant 19: O blaid: 1, Yn erbyn: 5, Ymatal: 0

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 19: For: 1, Against: 5, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 20 (Joel James).

Amendment 20 (Joel James) moved.

The question is that amendment 20 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] All those in favour of amendment 20. And all those against amendment 20. That's one in favour, five against. Amendment 20 falls.

Gwelliant 20: O blaid: 1, Yn erbyn: 5, Ymatal: 0

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 20: For: 1, Against: 5, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 21 (Joel James).

Amendment 21 (Joel James) moved.

The question is that amendment 21 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] All those in favour of amendment 21. And all those against. So, one in favour, five against. Amendment 21 falls.

11:35

Gwelliant 21: O blaid: 1, Yn erbyn: 5, Ymatal: 0

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 21: For: 1, Against: 5, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 22 (Joel James).

Amendment 22 (Joel James) moved.

The question is that amendment 22 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] All those in favour of amendment 22. All those against. So, that's one in favour and five against. 

Gwelliant 22: O blaid: 1, Yn erbyn: 5, Ymatal: 0

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 22: For: 1, Against: 5, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 23 (Joel James).

Amendment 23 (Joel James) moved.

The question is that amendment 23 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] All those in favour of amendment 23. All those against. One Member in favour, five against, so amendment 23 falls. 

Gwelliant 23: O blaid: 1, Yn erbyn: 5, Ymatal: 0

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 23: For: 1, Against: 5, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 24 (Joel James).

Amendment 24 (Joel James) moved.

The question is that amendment 24 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] All those in favour of amendment 24. And all those against. One in favour, five against. Amendment 24 falls.

Gwelliant 24: O blaid: 1, Yn erbyn: 5, Ymatal: 0

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 24: For: 1, Against: 5, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 25 (Joel James).

Amendment 25 (Joel James) moved.

The question is that amendment 25 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] All those in favour of amendment 25. And all those against. Thank you. So, one in favour, five against. Amendment 25 falls.   

Gwelliant 25: O blaid: 1, Yn erbyn: 5, Ymatal: 0

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 25: For: 1, Against: 5, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 26 (Joel James).

Amendment 26 (Joel James) moved.

The question is that amendment 26 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] All those in favour of amendment 26. And all those against. One Member in favour, five against. Amendment 26 falls. 

Gwelliant 26: O blaid: 1, Yn erbyn: 5, Ymatal: 0

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 26: For: 1, Against: 5, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 27 (Joel James).

Amendment 27 (Joel James) moved.

The question is that amendment 27 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] All those in favour of amendment 27. All those against. One Member in favour, five against. Amendment 27 falls. 

Gwelliant 27: O blaid: 1, Yn erbyn: 5, Ymatal: 0

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 27: For: 1, Against: 5, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 28 (Joel James).

Amendment 28 (Joel James) moved.

The question is that amendment 28 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] All those in favour of amendment 28. All those against. One Member in favour, five against. Amendment 28 falls. 

Gwelliant 28: O blaid: 1, Yn erbyn: 5, Ymatal: 0

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 28: For: 1, Against: 5, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 29 (Joel James).

Amendment 29 (Joel James) moved.

The question is that amendment 29 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] All those in favour of amendment 29. All those against amendment 29. One in favour, five against. Amendment 29 falls.  

Gwelliant 29: O blaid: 1, Yn erbyn: 5, Ymatal: 0

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 29: For: 1, Against: 5, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 30 (Joel James).

Amendment 30 (Joel James) moved.

The question is that amendment 30 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] All those in favour of amendment 30. All those against amendment 30. One in favour, five against. Amendment 30 falls.

Gwelliant 30: O blaid: 1, Yn erbyn: 5, Ymatal: 0

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 30: For: 1, Against: 5, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Grŵp 4: Y Cyngor Partneriaeth Gymdeithasol: enwebiadau gan Wales TUC Cymru (Gwelliannau 72, 94, 95)
Group 4: Social Partnership Council: nominations by TUC Cymru Wales (Amendments 72, 94, 95)

We now move on to group 4, relating to the social partnership council and the nomination process by TUC Cymru Wales. The lead amendment in this group is from Peredur Owen Griffiths. 

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 72 (Peredur Owen Griffiths).

Amendment 72 (Peredur Owen Griffiths) moved.

Diolch, Gadeirydd, a diolch i bawb wnaeth helpu i ddrafftio'r amendments yma. 

Thank you, Chair, and thank you to everyone who helped me to draft these amendments. 

Thanks to everybody who has been involved in this drafting process and amendment process.

This amendment, as with all our amendments, is submitted in good faith and with a view to making this legislation as robust and beneficial to our country as possible. Our amendment is not a slight on the TUC whatsoever. We enjoy a good relationship with them and have met with them on a number of occasions to discuss this legislation as well as other matters. It is a fact, however, that many trade unions, such as the RCN and the BMA, are not affiliated with the TUC. Placing a duty on the TUC to consider non-affiliated trade unions when forming a social partnership council will ensure that those voices are heard within this key body and are drawn from as wide as possible a cross-section of society.

Plurality is the key to the success and effectiveness of the SPC, and this amendment is laid with the intention of delivering this. It aims to strengthen the Bill to make sure that all workers and employees have their rights recognised and protected in the Bill to ensure that their voice is heard in decision making. The inclusion of this in the Bill will reduce bias on the social partnership council, ensuring it works most effectively and in a collaborative manner. So, I move my amendment.

11:40

Thank you. Jane Dodds, you proposed amendment 94, which is exactly the same wording. So, amendment 94 falls automatically, but you may wish to speak to this amendment. 

Thank you, Chair. I support the comments made by my colleague Peredur Owen Griffiths. It is crucial that the Welsh Government hear from a wide variety of relevant union voices when making decisions. This makes sure that they receive all appropriate expertise and ensure that there is confidence in the decisions that are made. The Bill at present does not allow this to occur and could potentially exclude recognised trade unions from collaborating in social partnership. This undermines the very idea of social partnership working. Nominations to the social partnership council should be fair, open and transparent for all recognised trade unions with collective bargaining rights in Wales, whether affiliated to the TUC or not. Whilst each trade union could choose to affiliate with or unaffiliate from the TUC at any point, their involvement in the social partnership council and its nomination process should not be a factor for consideration. I therefore support the movement of this amendment. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Thank you. Does any other Member wish to speak before I call the Minister? The Minister in charge.

Thank you, Chair. As I confirmed in my letter to committee following our Stage 1 debate and from previous discussions with members of the committee, I do very much understand and appreciate the concerns that some Members have in regard to this issue and the spirit in which these amendments have been tabled. However, a duty of the type proposed will not be possible, primarily because Wales TUC is a private body. Instead, I have agreed with Wales TUC Cymru that the nominations will include representation from non-affiliated unions. They very much appreciate the importance of this matter, and have given a written commitment to ensure that nominations are wide ranging and include non-affiliated trade unions. I'm happy to share that written commitment with the committee and place it formally on the record, if that would be helpful.

Thank you, Minister, and thank you, Chair. Thank you for those comments. It is important that there's transparency within the SPC. I welcome that letter from the TUC, and certainly want to see that, as this Bill moves forward, we see some strengthening in that area. But I welcome what you've said. I'll still be moving my amendment, but hopefully we can have further discussions at Stage 3 to see how this can be strengthened.

Very good. So, the question is that amendment 72 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] All those in favour of amendment 72. And all those against. I therefore use my casting vote in accordance with Standing Order 6.20. Therefore, amendment 72 is not agreed.

Gwelliant 72: O blaid: 3, Yn erbyn: 3, Ymatal: 0

Gan fod nifer y pleidleisiau yn gyfartal, defnyddiodd y Cadeirydd ei phleidlais fwrw yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 6.20(ii).

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 72: For: 3, Against: 3, Abstain: 0

As there was an equality of votes, the Chair used her casting vote in accordance with Standing Order 6.20(ii).

Amendment has been rejected

Jane Dodds, do you wish to move amendment 94, which is slightly different to amendment 72?

Ni chynigiwyd gwelliant 94 (Jane Dodds). 

Amendment 94 (Jane Dodds) not moved.

Thank you. We now move on to amendment 31. Joel James, do you wish to move amendment 31?

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 31 (Joel James).

Amendment 31 (Joel James) moved.

The question is that amendment 31 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] All those in favour of amendment 31. All those against. One in favour, five against. Amendment 31 falls.

Gwelliant 31: O blaid: 1, Yn erbyn: 5, Ymatal: 0

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 31: For: 1, Against: 5, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 32 (Joel James).

Amendment 32 (Joel James) moved.

The question is that amendment 32 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] All of those in favour of amendment 32. One. All those against amendment 32. One Member in favour, five against. Amendment 32 falls.

Gwelliant 32: O blaid: 1, Yn erbyn: 5, Ymatal: 0

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 32: For: 1, Against: 5, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

11:45

Ni chynigiwyd gwelliant 95 (Jane Dodds). 

Amendment 95 (Jane Dodds) not moved.

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 33 (Joel James).

Amendment 33 (Joel James) moved.

The question is that amendment 33 be put. Does any Member object? [Objection.] All those in favour of amendment 33. All those against amendment 33. One Member in favour, five against. Amendment 33 falls.

Gwelliant 33: O blaid: 1, Yn erbyn: 5, Ymatal: 0

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 33: For: 1, Against: 5, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 34 (Joel James).

Amendment 34 (Joel James) moved.

The question is that amendment 34 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] All those in favour of amendment 34. And all those against. One Member in favour, five against. Amendment 34 falls.

Gwelliant 34: O blaid: 1, Yn erbyn: 5, Ymatal: 0

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 34: For: 1, Against: 5, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 35 (Joel James).

Amendment 35 (Joel James) moved.

The question is that amendment 35 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] All those in favour of amendment 35. All those against amendment 35. One in favour, five against. Amendment 35 falls.
 
 

Gwelliant 35: O blaid: 1, Yn erbyn: 5, Ymatal: 0

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 35: For: 1, Against: 5, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Grŵp 5: Y Cyngor Partneriaeth Gymdeithasol: hyd penodiadau (Gwelliannau 36, 73, 39)
Group 5: Social Partnership Council: duration of appointments (Amendments 36, 73, 39)

We now move on to group 5: the social partnership council and the length of appointments, and the lead amendment is amendment 36. Joel James.

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 36 (Joel James).

Amendment 36 (Joel James) moved.

Thank you, Chair. Obviously, I wish to speak to my amendments in this group concerning the duration of appointments. Amendment 36 will ensure that members of the social partnership council are frequently attending the meetings and fulfilling their duties, whilst amendment 39 makes sure that a member of the SPC cannot be dismissed without good cause. Chair, the reasons for these amendments are straightforward. It is vital to the integrity of the SPC that its members perform all that is expected of them in order to maximise its effectiveness. It is also for these reasons that it is important to put safeguards in place to prevent unnecessary dismissal of members of the SPC, as being too frivolous with such an action could be incredibly detrimental to proceedings.

As to Peredur Owen Griffiths's amendment, I am happy to support this, as I believe that it will introduce reasonable constraints on the rules regarding reappointments. Thank you. 

I call on Peredur Owen Griffiths to speak to amendment 73 and all the other amendments in this group.

Thank you, Chair. Amendment 73 imposes a two-term limit—that means six years—on members appointed to the SPC. The amendment in this group imposes a two-term limit on the members who are appointed, and having term limits for membership appointed to the social partnership council will enhance and protect democracy and the integrity of the council. It would also help to drive forward the succession planning and encourage diversity on the SPC, so that people aren't on there for a long time. That would try and improve that, so that's why the amendment is there.

Does any other Member wish to speak on this group of amendments? I'll therefore call the Minister in charge to speak on these three amendments.

Diolch. It's normal practice in public appointments that not all members will stand down at the end of their three-year term. This ensures flexibility and continuity. The Bill does not prevent reappointment of an individual to the SPC or representative serving consecutive terms. The Bill is clear that an employer or worker representative is appointed for three years unless either the First Minister terminates their appointment, or they resign by notifying the First Minister. I think it's unnecessary to spell out specific reasons on the face of the Bill why an appointment should be terminated. There needs to remain an element of discretion around appointments in order to deal with a range of different circumstances, including ensuring a mix of people with the requisite skills, background and experiences and to maintain corporate knowledge. For these reasons, the Government will not be supporting these amendments.

Thank you, Chair. Whilst I understand the Deputy Minister's views, having such requirements woven into the legislation can play an integral role in guaranteeing a minimum level of performance from proceedings, and it is unfortunate that the Minister clearly does not see that as being a valuable addition, as I do. Thank you.

11:50

The question is that amendment 36 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] All those in favour of amendment 36. All those against amendment 36. One Member in favour, five against. Amendment 36 falls.

Gwelliant 36: O blaid: 1, Yn erbyn: 5, Ymatal: 0

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 36: For: 1, Against: 5, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 37 (Joel James).

Amendment 37 (Joel James) moved.

The question is that amendment 37 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] All those in favour of amendment 37. All those against amendment 37. One Member in favour, five against. Amendment 37 falls.

Gwelliant 37: O blaid: 1, Yn erbyn: 5, Ymatal: 0

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 37: For: 1, Against: 5, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 73 (Peredur Owen Griffiths).

Amendment 73 (Peredur Owen Griffiths) moved.

The question is that amendment 73 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] All those in favour of amendment 73. All those against amendment 73. Three in favour, three against. As there is a tied vote, I use my casting vote in the negative—that is against the amendment—in accordance with Standing Order 6.20. Therefore, amendment 73 is not agreed.

Gwelliant 73: O blaid: 3, Yn erbyn: 3, Ymatal: 0

Gan fod nifer y pleidleisiau yn gyfartal, defnyddiodd y Cadeirydd ei phleidlais fwrw yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 6.20(ii).

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 73: For: 3, Against: 3, Abstain: 0

As there was an equality of votes, the Chair used her casting vote in accordance with Standing Order 6.20(ii).

Amendment has been rejected

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 38 (Joel James).

Amendment 38 (Joel James) moved.

Do you wish to move to the vote? Yes.

The question is that amendment 38 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] All those in favour of amendment 38. All those against amendment 38. One in favour, five against. Amendment 38 falls.

Gwelliant 38: O blaid: 1, Yn erbyn: 5, Ymatal: 0

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 38: For: 1, Against: 5, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 39 (Joel James).

Amendment 39 (Joel James) moved.

The question is that amendment 39 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] All those in favour of amendment 39. All those against amendment 39. One in favour, five against. Amendment 39 falls.

Gwelliant 39: O blaid: 1, Yn erbyn: 5, Ymatal: 0

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 39: For: 1, Against: 5, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 40 (Joel James).

Amendment 40 (Joel James) moved.

The question is that amendment 40 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] All those in favour of amendment 40. All those against amendment 40. One in favour, five against. Amendment 40 falls.

Gwelliant 40: O blaid: 1, Yn erbyn: 5, Ymatal: 0

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 40: For: 1, Against: 5, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 41 (Joel James).

Amendment 41 (Joel James) moved.

The question is that amendment 41 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] All those in favour of amendment 41. All those against amendment 41. One in favour, five against. Amendment 41 is not agreed.

Gwelliant 41: O blaid: 1, Yn erbyn: 5, Ymatal: 0

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 41: For: 1, Against: 5, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 42 (Joel James).

Amendment 42 (Joel James) moved.

The question is that amendment 42 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] All those in favour of amendment 42. All those against amendment 42. One in favour, five against. Amendment 42 falls.

Gwelliant 42: O blaid: 1, Yn erbyn: 5, Ymatal: 0

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 42: For: 1, Against: 5, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 1 (Hannah Blythyn).

Amendment 1 (Hannah Blythyn) moved.

I move amendment 1, in the name of the Deputy Minister. The question is that amendment 1 be agreed to. Does any Member object? I don't see any disagreement, therefore amendment 1 is agreed.

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 17.34.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 17.34.

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 43 (Joel James).

Amendment 43 (Joel James) moved.

The question is that amendment 43 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] All those in favour of amendment 43. All those against amendment 43. One in favour, five against. Amendment 43 is not agreed.

Gwelliant 43: O blaid: 1, Yn erbyn: 5, Ymatal: 0

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 43: For: 1, Against: 5, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Grŵp 6: Is-grwpiau’r CPG (Gwelliannau 44, 74, 45, 46, 47)
Group 6: Sub-groups of the SPC (Amendments 44, 74, 45, 46, 47)

We now move on to group 6, which relates to sub-groups of the social partnership council. The lead amendment is amendment 44. I call on Joel James to move and speak to the lead amendment and any other amendments in the group. 

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 44 (Joel James).

Amendment 44 (Joel James) moved.

Thank you, Chair. I'll speak to my amendments in this group on the sub-groups of the social partnership council. Firstly, amendment 44 will ensure that the people appointed on to the sub-groups of the SPC are experienced in their fields as they're acting as an adviser to the Minister and the council. It will also ensure that both the employers and employees have equal say. Amendments 45 and 46 on the other hand will make certain that any amendments to the membership and functioning of sub-groups are presented to the SPC before a final decision is made. To me, Chair, this seems a no-brainer. It is integral to the SPC that that is an intrinsic part of this process and that it is treated with the respect that this position should hold.

Finally, amendment 47 will add the sub-section of barriers to employment. This will ensure that the voices of those who are attempting to join the workplace, but are struggling to be heard—. Chair, further to the previous points that I have made today around the wide scope of opinion that I hope the SPC draws on, I believe that the voices of those seeking to enter the workplace would also prove valuable, and bring a different dimension to other groups and to the SPC's consideration.

As to amendment 74, I am happy to support Peredur Owen Griffiths's amendment. This public procurement sub-group would benefit from the voice of at least one voluntary organisation employer. Thank you. 

11:55

Thank you. I call on Peredur Owen Griffiths to speak to amendment 74 and any other amendments in this group.  

Thank you, Chair. Amendment 74 places a duty on the SPC public procurement sub-group to include individuals from the third sector or voluntary sector in Wales. Our amendment in this group will place a duty on the social partnership council to have those individuals and to have that voice in there. Third sector organisations, we heard in committee, were very concerned about representation, as the SPC itself only has one member out of the nine business representatives, and this amendment seeks to increase the diversity of the voices on the SPC sub-group. Whilst being restrictive, it might be possible to achieve a similar position through guidance to the SPC on setting up the sub-groups, and I'd be happy to discuss this further ahead of Stage 3 if the Minister couldn't support the amendment. I believe that, unfortunately, Joel, amendment 44 is too restrictive with a sub-group chaired by somebody who would not necessarily have the subject area or expertise to chair it well, if it was limited on that, in my understanding of that amendment. Therefore, I will be moving my amendment, when the time comes. Thank you. 

Thank you. Does any other Member wish to speak on this group of amendments? Sarah Murphy. 

Thank you, Chair. Just to say that I think there have been a lot of suggestions throughout this process about what type of sub-groups to have, and, whereas I do think that the suggestion that you've made is something that could certainly be looked at by a social partnership council, I think that if you added one, like this, then you could add many. And I think that, as Peredur has said, this Bill is meant to be the framework so that it can give the scope to the social partnership council, and what's been set out would be very prescriptive, and it could also, whilst promoting some aspects, exclude others, which would be counterproductive. And I agree with you, Peredur, there are things here that could be discussed and arranged through the guidance instead. 

Before I call the Minister, does any other Member wish to speak? I call the Minister in charge of the legislation. 

Thank you, Chair. Amendments 44, 45, 46 and 47 deal with matters that I believe the SPC should be able to determine for itself. It will be for the SPC to determine what sub-groups it needs to establish, in the context of its work programme, which will change and develop over time. The Welsh Government's view is that the SPC should determine its own operations for itself. Such an approach is very much in keeping with putting the principles of social partnership into practice, and nothing in the Bill will prevent the SPC from establishing any sub-group that it sees fit. Sub-groups will be created when the SPC deems there is a need for increased attention and expertise on a particular issue. As the SPC will have a large remit of areas to cover, sub-groups will be able to offer additional support in carrying out the SPC's functions.

Turning to amendment 74, whilst I understand the rationale for requiring that a representative of the voluntary sector be included in membership of the procurement sub-group, there are many other sectors from which you might also expect members to be drawn, for example, the construction industry. For the reasons I've outlined previously, it's right that the establishment and membership of all sub-groups should be the responsibility of the SPC and not overly prescribed to the legislation itself. However, I'm more than happy to support the further possibilities through guidance with Members. 

Thank you, Chair. Obviously, it's disappointing that the Deputy Minister hasn't taken on these amendments. I think the barriers to employment sub-group would have been quite a worthy thing to put into legislation here, but nonetheless, I still move the amendments. Thank you. 

Thank you. The question is that amendment 44 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] All those in favour of amendment 44. All those against amendment 44. One in favour, five against. Amendment 44 is not agreed. 

12:00

Gwelliant 44: O blaid: 1, Yn erbyn: 5, Ymatal: 0

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 44: For: 1, Against: 5, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Amendment 74, Peredur Owen Griffiths. You do not wish to move it. Are all Members content we do not move amendment 74? 

Ni chynigiwyd gwelliant 74 (Peredur Owen Griffiths). 

Amendment 74 (Peredur Owen Griffiths) not moved.

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 45 (Joel James).

Amendment 45 (Joel James) moved.

The question is that amendment 45 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] All those in favour of amendment 45. All those against amendment 45. One in favour, five against. Amendment 45 is not agreed. 

Gwelliant 45: O blaid: 1, Yn erbyn: 5, Ymatal: 0

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 45: For: 1, Against: 5, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 46 (Joel James).

Amendment 46 (Joel James) moved.

The question is that amendment 46 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] All those in favour of amendment 46. All those against amendment 46. Any abstentions? I didn't see—. Jane Dodds, you were recorded as against. Is that correct? I just didn't see how you cast your vote. 

Thank you so much. One Member in favour, five against. Amendment 46 falls. 

Gwelliant 46: O blaid: 1, Yn erbyn: 5, Ymatal: 0

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 46: For: 1, Against: 5, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 47 (Joel James).

Amendment 47 (Joel James) moved.

The question is that amendment 47 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] All those in favour of amendment 47. All those against amendment 47. One in favour, five against. Amendment 47 is not agreed. 

Gwelliant 47: O blaid: 1, Yn erbyn: 5, Ymatal: 0

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 47: For: 1, Against: 5, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 48 (Joel James).

Amendment 48 (Joel James) moved.

The question is that amendment 48 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] All those in favour of amendment 48. All those against amendment 48. One Member in favour, five against. Amendment 48 falls.

Gwelliant 48: O blaid: 1, Yn erbyn: 5, Ymatal: 0

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 48: For: 1, Against: 5, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 49 (Joel James).

Amendment 49 (Joel James) moved.

The question is that amendment 49 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] All those in favour of amendment 49. All those against amendment 49. One in favour, five against. Amendment 49 is not agreed. 

Gwelliant 49: O blaid: 1, Yn erbyn: 5, Ymatal: 0

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 49: For: 1, Against: 5, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 50 (Joel James).

Amendment 50 (Joel James) moved.

The question is that amendment 50 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] All those in favour of amendment 50. All those against amendment 50. One in favour, five against. Amendment 50 is not agreed. 

Gwelliant 50: O blaid: 1, Yn erbyn: 5, Ymatal: 0

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 50: For: 1, Against: 5, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 51 (Joel James).

Amendment 51 (Joel James) moved.

The question is that amendment 51 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] All those in favour of amendment 51. [Interruption.] Okay. Sorry. Amendment 51—one Member indicated they wished to support it. Can I have a show of hands again on the objections to amendment 51? You didn't see amendment 51 being voted on by Jane. Jane Dodds, how do you wish to vote on amendment 51?

Gwelliant 51: O blaid: 1, Yn erbyn: 5, Ymatal: 0

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 51: For: 1, Against: 5, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 52 (Joel James).

Amendment 52 (Joel James) moved.

The question is that amendment 52 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] All those in favour of amendment 52. All those against amendment 52. One in favour, five against. Amendment 52 is not agreed. 

Gwelliant 52: O blaid: 1, Yn erbyn: 5, Ymatal: 0

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 52: For: 1, Against: 5, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Grŵp 7: Dyletswydd partneriaeth gymdeithasol (Gwelliannau 53, 96, 54, 97, 55)
Group 7: Social partnership duty (Amendments 53, 96, 54, 97, 55)

We now move on to group 7, relating to the social partnership duty, and the lead amendment on this is amendment 53—Joel James. 

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 53 (Joel James).

Amendment 53 (Joel James) moved.

Thank you, Chair. I want to speak to my own amendments first before turning to the other amendments. Amendment 53 will ensure that public bodies will consult their trade union or staff representatives on well-being objectives. I understand from a legal point of view that there's no substantive difference in using 'consult'. However, I, like others, feel that it makes very clear the intention. 

Following that, amendment 54 will make public bodies take reasonable steps to consult trade unions and representatives on setting objectives and decision making, whilst also maintaining the flexibility for the bodies to make the best decision for the organisation, without significant bureaucracy.

Finally, amendment 55 means that the decisions of the public bodies will not be delayed for an unknown amount of time, and that, after the 30 days have elapsed, the public bodies can proceed with or without consensus. I see this as vital, Chair, as there is no mechanism to allow a public body from implementing well-being goals if an individual representative had not agreed to the suggested well-being goals. Thank you. 

12:05

Thank you. I draw Members' attention to the fact that amendments 96 and 97 are duplicate amendments that, while admissible at time of tabling, are inadmissible for the purposes of proceedings, and therefore cannot be voted on or moved.

I call on any Member who wishes to speak to any of the amendments in this group. I call on the Deputy Minister to speak, as the Member in charge, on this group of amendments. 

Thank you, Chair. Section 16 of the Bill establishes a statutory social partnership duty and sets some further specific requirements on each specified public body to, insofar as reasonable, seek consensus or compromise primarily with its recognised trade unions when taking certain actions. Where a public body does not have a recognised trade union, they must seek consensus or compromise with other representatives of its staff. In contrast to consultation, we have deliberately chosen to use the wording of 'seeking consensus or compromise' to encourage a more meaningful culture of engagement and working with work representatives, involving them in the process of setting well-being objectives. These are steps intended to involve trade unions or staff representatives in the decision-making processes, and their requirements are intended to promote a more consistent and collaborative approach to strategic decision making and connection with the public bodies' well-being duty, one which properly takes account of the views, knowledge and experiences of the workforce. So, for these reasons, the Government will not be supporting amendments 53 or 54. 

As for amendment 55, a 30-day limit on reaching agreement would be far too restrictive, so we will not be supporting that amendment either. 

Thank you, Chair, and thank you, Deputy Minister, for your response. Obviously, this has been one of the fundamental concerns I've had with this legislation, especially if there's no resolution mechanism within the Bill, and I felt that these amendments would go to address that. And I'm concerned, going forward, especially with the current situation of strike action we see throughout the country, that this is another bit of legislation that couldn't be used. But, with that, I still move my amendments. Thank you. 

Thank you. The question is that amendment 53 is agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] All those in favour of amendment 53. All those against amendment 53. One Member in favour, five against, so amendment 53 is not agreed. 

Gwelliant 53: O blaid: 1, Yn erbyn: 5, Ymatal: 0

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 53: For: 1, Against: 5, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Roedd gwelliant 96 yn annerbyniadwy yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 26.61(iv).

Amendment 96 was inadmissible in accordance with Standing Order 26.61(iv)

As amendment 96 is inadmissible, we now move to amendment 54. Joel James, do you wish to put this? 

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 54 (Joel James).

Amendment 54 (Joel James) moved.

The question is that amendment 54 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] All those in favour of amendment 54. Did you vote in favour? 

All those against amendment 54. So, Jane Dodds, could you indicate how you wish to vote on amendment 54? I think—

Chair, Jane's just messaged me to say that her internet has just gone down. 

Okay. I think we'll proceed anyway because it's not going to change the vote, however she's voting. One against and four recorded as—. Sorry, one Member in favour and four against, therefore amendment 54 is not agreed. 

Gwelliant 54: O blaid: 1, Yn erbyn: 4, Ymatal: 0

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 54: For: 1, Against: 4, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Roedd gwelliant 97 yn annerbyniadwy yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 26.61(iv).

Amendment 97 was inadmissible in accordance with Standing Order 26.61(iv)

And then we now move to amendment 55. Joel James, do you wish to move amendment 55? 

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 55 (Joel James).

Amendment 55 (Joel James) moved.

The question is that amendment 55 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] All those in favour of amendment 55. All those against amendment 55. One in favour, four against. Therefore, amendment 55 is not agreed. 

12:10

Gwelliant 55: O blaid: 1, Yn erbyn: 4, Ymatal: 0

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 55: For: 1, Against: 4, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

I think, in light of the fact that we've lost one of our Members because of the technical connection, I suggest that we now take a break for lunch. Can I suggest that we come back at 1 o'clock for resuming in public at 1 o'clock? And hopefully, in the meantime, we'll get Jane Dodds back. Jane, we have proceeded and dealt with up to group 8, and we're going to take a break now because we weren't certain if we could get you back. So, we're going to break until 1 o'clock, and then we'll resume promptly at 1 o'clock and start with group 8. 

Gohiriwyd y cyfarfod rhwng 12:10 a 13:00.

The meeting adjourned between 12:10 and 13:00.

13:00
Grŵp 8: Trefniadau adrodd partneriaeth gymdeithasol (Gwelliannau 56, 57, 58, 59)
Group 8: Social partnership reporting arrangements (Amendments 56, 57, 58, 59)

We now move to group 8 of the Social Partnership and Public Procurement (Wales) Bill. The group 8 amendments relate to the reporting arrangements. The lead amendment in this group is amendment 56, and I call on Joel James to move and speak to the lead amendment and the other amendments in the group.

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 56 (Joel James).

Amendment 56 (Joel James) moved.

Thank you, Chair. I will speak to my amendments that comprise this group. My amendments 56 to 59 serve to ensure that any reports produced by the social partnership council will have significant findings and actions to report. As the Bill stands, Chair, reports would be produced based on arbitrary timings tied to financial years rather than when there is something of substance to actually report. With these amendments, the SPC could also call for a report as and when deemed necessary. Thank you.

Are there any other Members who wish to speak to this group of amendments? I therefore call on the Minister in charge to speak to these amendments.

Thank you, Chair. Amendment 56 and its consequentials removes the requirement for public bodies to produce a social partnership report each financial year and replace it with a requirement to do so as and when directed by the SPC. In my view, this would weaken the social partnership duty. The system we're creating through the Bill relies on transparency and regular reporting. The duty to produce an annual report sets a clearly defined reporting cycle that would align with public bodies' duty to report under the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015. There will be a clear read-across between the reporting in connection with the social partnership duty under the Bill and reporting of progress on well-being objectives under the 2015 Act, which makes such alignment a desirable feature.

The annual reporting arrangements under the Bill provide the SPC with a regular and reliable source of information to better understand whether public bodies are complying with the duty. In my view, these amendments would undermine what we are trying to achieve in terms of a new way of working, and, for that reason, I recommend the committee rejects amendments 56, 57, 58 and 59.

Thank you, Chair. I take on the points raised by the Deputy Minister, but I still stand by these amendments. I would like to take them to a vote. Thank you.

Okay. The question is that the amendment 56 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] All those in favour of amendment 56. All those against amendment 56. One in favour, five against, therefore amendment 56 is not agreed.

Gwelliant 56: O blaid: 1, Yn erbyn: 5, Ymatal: 0

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 56: For: 1, Against: 5, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 57 (Joel James).

Amendment 57 (Joel James) moved.

The question is that amendment 57 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] All those in favour of amendment 57. All those opposed to amendment 57. One in favour, five against, therefore amendment 57 is not agreed.

Gwelliant 57: O blaid: 1, Yn erbyn: 5, Ymatal: 0

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 57: For: 1, Against: 5, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 58 (Joel James).

Amendment 58 (Joel James) moved.

The question is that amendment 58 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] All those in favour of amendment 58. All those opposed to amendment 58. One in favour, five against. Amendment 58 is not agreed.

Gwelliant 58: O blaid: 1, Yn erbyn: 5, Ymatal: 1

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 58: For: 1, Against: 5, Abstain: 1

Amendment has been rejected

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 59 (Joel James).

Amendment 59 (Joel James) moved.

The question is that amendment 59 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] All those in favour of amendment 59. All those against. One in favour, five against. Amendment 59 is not agreed.

Gwelliant 59: O blaid: 1, Yn erbyn: 5, Ymatal: 1

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 59: For: 1, Against: 5, Abstain: 1

Amendment has been rejected

Grŵp 9: Caffael cyhoeddus cymdeithasol gyfrifol (Gwelliannau 98, 99, 75, 100, 2, 101, 102, 103, 3, 104, 105, 4, 106, 60, 107, 61, 108, 109, 111, 112, 113, 114, 115)
Group 9: Socially responsible public procurement (Amendments 98, 99, 75, 100, 2, 101, 102, 103, 3, 104, 105, 4, 106, 60, 107, 61, 108, 109, 111, 112, 113, 114, 115)

We now move on to the next group of amendments, which is related to socially responsible public procurement. There's a large group of amendments, and the lead amendment is amendment 98, which is proposed by Jane Dodds.

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 98 (Jane Dodds).

Amendment 98 (Jane Dodds) moved.

Thank you, Chair. Diolch yn fawr iawn. I welcome the Welsh Government's stated support for global responsibility and in recognising the Welsh Government's view that this is one of the seven well-being goals. I propose that we include an amendment that is focused on global responsibility, particularly around the principles of business and human rights. I'm aware that the Welsh Government states that the proposal to ensure public bodies follow the United Nations guiding principles on business and human rights is a reserved matter and therefore cannot be included within this legislation. However, the national action plan for the UK states that devolved administrations may develop their own action plans or strategies in support of this plan and in line with the commitment to implement the UNGPs. Therefore, this seems like the moment for us to include global responsibility within procurement and on the face of this Bill. I therefore move this amendment. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

13:05

Thank you. I call on Peredur Owen Griffiths to speak to his amendments and any other amendments in this group.

Diolch, Chair. Our amendment 75 aims to strengthen section 24 of the Bill by making it clear that the public bodies have a global responsibility as well as a responsibility to their own local area. A number of organisations have been calling for the inclusion of global responsibility procurement. The Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 sees global responsibility as one of the seven well-being goals in Wales, as Jane has just explained. There is a tension, however, as there is a risk that defining 'well-being' within the local area could supersede the global responsibility. This has to be included in the legislation to ensure public bodies can be held to account if they are not acting in a globally responsible manner.

We know that an area nearly half the size of Wales was required to grow Welsh imports in an average year between 2011 and 2018, resulting in deforestation, habitat destruction, greenhouse gas emissions and the risk of exploitative labour practices. We have to show consistency in our desire for socially responsible public procurement. We have the potential to make a big difference through small changes to become a globally responsible nation, which this amendment would be part of. Wales must become a nation that, when doing anything, is improving the economic, social, environmental and cultural well-being of Wales and takes into account whether or not doing such a thing would make a positive contribution to global well-being. This isn't the case currently and we owe it to the world to change this.

Wales has a long history of internationalism. Solidarity movements have existed over the generations with communities far afield across the globe in domains such as health, education, climate change and water, but our domestic consumption is undermining this vital global work. Our practices are driving climate change, destroying cultures and inducing human rights abuses. Our actions at home and abroad must ensure we live within our environmental means, support nature and allow people and cultures to thrive. At a time when nations need to stand together for the good of the planet, its climate, its people and its rich tapestry of life that weaves it together, Wales must act responsibly and play its part, including its negative impacts.

Our amendment seeks to achieve the same, I think, as Jane Dodds's amendments, and uses the well-being of future generations Act to do this. And, as such, I don't see the need to be prescriptive in the pieces of legislation. As such, I'll be abstaining on Jane's amendments. I believe that the Minister is trying to do the same with her amendments and has explained some of her thinking in her letter to the committee. I'd like to hear a little bit more from the Minister, when she responds, about the meeting that she had with the individuals that she talked about in her letter to see what progress can be made. But, I will be supporting the Minister's amendments. Diolch. 

Thank you. Joel James, would you like to speak to amendments 60, 61 and any other amendments in this group?

Thank you, Chair. I wish to speak to my amendments, 60 and 61. These amendments will ensure that public bodies will not be able to significantly increase their purchase costs due to products being bought locally. It is not socially responsible nor is it in the public interest for public bodies to spend considerably higher amounts for the same goods and services just because they can be purchased within an area. 

As to amendments 98, 3, 4 and 107, I will be opposing them. Amendments 3 and 4, I am opposing because they invalidate a previous amendment, 103, which I am supporting. Amendment 107: I am opposed to this, because our amendment 60 has removed this line. Thank you.

Thank you. Before I call the Deputy Minister, does any other Member wish to speak on these amendments? Deputy Minister, would you like to speak to these 23 amendments?

Thank you, Chair. I'll start by commending Government amendments 2, 3 and 4, to the committee for the following reasons. The version of this Bill that was published for consultation in February 2021 included reference to fair work goals as well as the well-being goals, and the procurement duties referred to these together as 'socially responsible procurement goals'. We've taken a different approach to fair work in the Bill as laid in June, which means that socially responsible procurement goals are, in effect, well-being goals. This strengthens the link between these procurement duties and the well-being goals, and I recommend that Members accept this amendment.

I will now address the amendments 99 to 115, put forward by Jane Dodds, which are about strengthening the Bill by making explicit references to our global responsibilities, including meeting net-zero targets and giving regard to ethical trade and human rights. Although the Government fully supports the aims of these amendments, I recommend that they are all rejected for the following reasons.

Section 22 explains that a contracting authority’s 'area' is the area within which it primarily exercises its functions. For some, including the Welsh Government, this will be the whole of Wales; for others this is a more limited area. We cannot place duties on a public body designed to take effect outside of its area of operation. Under this Bill, a contracting authority’s duty is to pursue well-being goals through all of its procurement. I have already talked about the Government amendments 2, 3 and 4 that are designed to make this clearer.

Socially responsible procurement is about all of the well-being goals, so the Bill does not need to refer separately to 'socially and globally responsible procurement'. This would be repetitive, and in giving precedence to one goal over the others, it would not align with the principles of the well-being of future generations Act, which seeks to ensure a holistic approach to address all of the challenges facing Wales.

With respect to human rights, section 81 of the Government of Wales Act 2006 enshrines the concept of human rights into all the functions of the Welsh Ministers. In addition, all public authorities are required to act in a manner that is compatible with human rights by virtue of section 6 of the Human Rights Act 1998. However, with the climate emergency we face, and the prevalence of human rights abuses around the world, we have a pressing need to make sure that our procurement does not support unethical and illegal practices overseas. We are committed to addressing these matters clearly in statutory guidance and to working with our expert stakeholders on guidance that will embed good practice across the public sector, but which can also be applied proportionately.

Peredur asked for information on the meeting I had with a number of NGOs, which I wrote to the committee about prior to this session today. That was a very constructive session and there were some really practical suggestions from the organisations there, whether that was to help us in this area or to support Welsh Government's work through things like secondments, but also they are committed to working with us as part of those expert stakeholders to ensure that we can do all that we can in this area, which I know members of the committee are significantly interested in.

I would make the same points in explaining my reasons for recommending that the committee rejects amendment 75, about including the need for a contracting authority to have regard to the impact of its actions on global well-being. I welcome the commitment that the Member said. Contracting authorities will have to do this to comply with the Bill as currently drafted.

Turning now to Joel James's amendments 60 and 61, amendment 60 would remove the duty on public bodies to take all reasonable steps to meet their socially responsible objectives when carrying out prescribed procurements. I recommend that this be rejected because it would weaken the Bill considerably. It forms part of the way in which the principle of proportionality is embedded in these procurement duties. However, if a contracting authority is not required to take all reasonable steps to deliver its objectives in its larger procurements, then what is the point of setting them?

One of the main purposes of these procurement duties is to make sure that contracting authorities cannot make procurement decisions based only on lowest prices. Although it is not always the case that socially responsible procurement will cost more than socially irresponsible procurement, there will be times when doing the right thing will cost more. For this reason I recommend that we reject amendment 61.

13:10

Thank you, Chair. Diolch yn fawr iawn, and thank you too to the Minister and her team for the time that you've spent meeting with me. I realise that meeting was actually after the one when you met with the organisations. This is one I feel very passionately about. This could really show that Wales is leading the way in terms of our commitment to global human rights, and that we will take this into account when we're looking at social and ethical procurement, and also it places a duty, a very clear duty on those other organisations to do the same.

In our meeting, I know, Minister, you asked how would we do this, and one of the instruments that we have available to us—and in fact, it has been used in relation to the debate on Qatar—is our report by Amnesty International, where we are able to refer to an independent organisation that actually reports on global human rights. This is so important that Wales takes this opportunity now to demonstrate to the world that we're an international outward-facing organisation, and that human rights are at the heart of everything we do.

Finally, if I may just turn as well to—. I know that there is a commitment to say that we will put it in the statutory guidance. This wouldn't be good enough for me. We need it on the face of the Bill. Putting it in statutory guidance actually feels inconsistent, because if we're committed to it, it should be on the face of the Bill. Thank you, Chair. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

13:15

Thank you. The question is that amendment 98 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] All those in favour of amendment 98, please indicate. One. All those against. And any abstentions? Thank you. That's one in favour, four against, and one abstention. So, amendment 98 is not agreed.

Gwelliant 98: O blaid: 1, Yn erbyn: 4, Ymatal: 1

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 98: For: 1, Against: 4, Abstain: 1

Amendment has been rejected

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 99 (Jane Dodds).

Amendment 99 (Jane Dodds) moved.

The question is that amendment 99 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] I've seen an objection. All those in favour of amendment 99. All those against amendment 99. And any abstentions? So, that's two in favour, three against, and one abstention. So, amendment 99 is not agreed.

Gwelliant 99: O blaid: 2, Yn erbyn: 3, Ymatal: 1

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 99: For: 2, Against: 3, Abstain: 1

Amendment has been rejected

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 75 (Peredur Owen Griffiths).

Amendment 75 (Peredur Owen Griffiths) moved.

The question is that amendment 75 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] All those in favour of amendment 75. All those against amendment 75. So, three in favour, three against. As there is a tied vote, I use my casting vote in the negative, that is against the amendment, in accordance with Standing Order 6.20. Therefore, this amendment is not agreed. Amendment 75 is not agreed.

Gwelliant 75: O blaid: 3, Yn erbyn: 3, Ymatal: 0

Gan fod nifer y pleidleisiau yn gyfartal, defnyddiodd y Cadeirydd ei phleidlais fwrw yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 6.20(ii).

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 75: For: 3, Against: 3, Abstain: 0

As there was an equality of votes, the Chair used her casting vote in accordance with Standing Order 6.20(ii).

Amendment has been rejected

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 100 (Jane Dodds).

Amendment 100 (Jane Dodds) moved.

The question is that amendment 100 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] All those in favour of amendment 100. All those against. And any abstentions? So, two in favour, three against, and one abstention. Therefore, amendment 100 is not agreed.

Gwelliant 100: O blaid: 2, Yn erbyn: 3, Ymatal: 1

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 100: For: 2, Against: 3, Abstain: 1

Amendment has been rejected

I move amendment 2 in the name of the Deputy Minister, assuming the Deputy Minister wishes to move it.

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 2 (Hannah Blythyn).

Amendment 2 (Hannah Blythyn) moved.

Thank you. Does any Member object to amendment 2? I see no objection. Therefore, amendment 2 is agreed.

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 17.34.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 17.34.

Methodd gwelliant 101.

Amendment 101 fell.

So, we now move on to amendment 102. Jane Dodds, do you wish to put amendment 102?

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 102 (Jane Dodds).

Amendment 102 (Jane Dodds) moved.

The question is that amendment 102 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] All those in favour of amendment 102. All those against. Any abstentions? So, two in favour, three against, and one abstention. Amendment 102 is not agreed.

Gwelliant 102: O blaid: 2, Yn erbyn: 3, Ymatal: 1

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 102: For: 2, Against: 3, Abstain: 1

Amendment has been rejected

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 103 (Jane Dodds).

Amendment 103 (Jane Dodds) moved.

The question is that amendment 103 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] All those in favour of amendment 103. All those against. And any abstentions? So, two in favour, three against, one abstention. So, amendment 103 is not agreed.

Gwelliant 103: O blaid: 2, Yn erbyn: 3, Ymatal: 1

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 103: For: 2, Against: 3, Abstain: 1

Amendment has been rejected

Okay. Just to point out that if amendment 3 is agreed, amendment 104 falls.

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 3 (Hannah Blythyn).

Amendment 3 (Hannah Blythyn) moved.

I move amendment 3 in the name of the Deputy Minister. [Objection.] We have an objection. So, the question is that amendment 3 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] All those in favour of amendment 3. Objections? One. Any abstentions? So, three in favour, one against and—no, sorry. I'll have to take that again because I've lost the plot. [Laughter.] So, all those in favour of amendment 3. All those against. And any abstentions? So, that's four in favour, one against and one abstention. Amendment 3 is agreed.

13:20

Gwelliant 3: O blaid: 4, Yn erbyn: 1, Ymatal: 1

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 3: For: 4, Against: 1, Abstain: 1

Amendment has been agreed

Methodd gwelliant 104.

Amendment 104 fell.

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 105 (Jane Dodds).

Amendment 105 (Jane Dodds) moved.

The question is that amendment 105 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] All those in favour of amendment 105. All those against. And any abstentions? So, two in favour, three against and one abstention. Amendment 105 is not agreed.

Gwelliant 105: O blaid: 2, Yn erbyn: 3, Ymatal: 1

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 105: For: 2, Against: 3, Abstain: 1

Amendment has been rejected

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 4 (Hannah Blythyn).

Amendment 4 (Hannah Blythyn) moved.

I move amendment 4, in the name of the Deputy Minister. All those in favour of amendment 4. Does anyone wish to disagree? [Objection.] You object. So, all those in favour of amendment 4. All those against. So, four in favour, two against. Amendment 4 is agreed.

Gwelliant 4: O blaid: 4, Yn erbyn: 2, Ymatal: 0

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 4: For: 4, Against: 2, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been agreed

Methodd gwelliant 106.

Amendment 106 fell.

Apologies, Jane Dodds; I failed to point that out at the beginning. So, we now move to amendment 60. If amendment 60 is agreed, amendment 107 falls. Do you wish to put this to a vote?

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 60 (Joel James).

Amendment 60 (Joel James) moved.

Joel James wishes to put it a vote. Is there any disagreement to that? [Objection.] All those in favour of amendment 60. All those against amendment 60. One in favour, five against. Amendment 60 falls.

Gwelliant 60: O blaid: 1, Yn erbyn: 5, Ymatal: 0

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 60: For: 1, Against: 5, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 107 (Jane Dodds).

Amendment 107 (Jane Dodds) moved.

The question is that amendment 107 is agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] All those in favour of amendment 107. All those against 107. And any abstentions? One in favour, four against and one abstention. So, amendment 107 is not agreed.

Gwelliant 107: O blaid: 1, Yn erbyn: 4, Ymatal: 1

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 107: For: 1, Against: 4, Abstain: 1

Amendment has been rejected

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 61 (Joel James).

Amendment 61 (Joel James) moved.

The question is amendment 61 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] All those in favour of amendment 61. All those against amendment 61. Sorry, I haven't seen Ken Skates indicating. Sorry. So, we've got one—. I'll take the whole vote again. All those in favour of amendment 61. All those against amendment 61. One in favour, five against. That amendment is not agreed.

Gwelliant 61: O blaid: 1, Yn erbyn: 5, Ymatal: 0

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 61: For: 1, Against: 5, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Grŵp 10: Cymalau gweithiau cyhoeddus cymdeithasol (Gwelliannau 62, 76, 63, 77, 78, 64, 65, 66, 67, 92)
Group 10: Social public works clauses (Amendments 62, 76, 63, 77, 78, 64, 65, 66, 67, 92)

We now move on to group 10, which relates to social public works clauses. The lead amendment in this group is Joel James's, which is amendment 62. No, I beg your pardon—. Yes, amendment 62.

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 62 (Joel James).

Amendment 62 (Joel James) moved.

Thank you, Chair. I wish to speak to my amendments, which are designed to strengthen the Bill. In terms of amendment 62, you must be aware that, despite the intention to source goods and services as locally as possible, which I'm in agreement with, this could result in contracting authorities paying considerably more for goods and services to brokers who still source goods from further afield. I'm also minded that it is not necessarily in the public interest and taxpayers' interest to increase costs to a project to supply exactly the same goods that can be sourced elsewhere, unless it can be proved that the goods are from locally sourced materials.

In terms of amendment 63, and the encouragement for upskilling the workforce, one of the reasons in my mind we have lower wages in Wales is because workers in some industries are not able to move jobs easily and rapidly and find different types of work if they are made redundant, and, in order to change this, we need to help workers expand their skillsets. Workers could be encouraged to develop skills that don't necessarily follow their current job description to help build resilience in the job market. I appreciate that this is a modal clause—or a model clause—and will only be a recommendation, but, nonetheless, I think it should be included.

For amendment 65, I think that, while it is a noble endeavour to get all subsequent sub-contractors from the initial sub-contractor in the contract chain to have to adhere to the requirements of this Bill, I think, in reality, this is not workable. It's going to increase the burden of paperwork for small businesses who are struggling already with trying to stay in business. I think it will lead to some contractors who are already busy choosing not to take public contracts, which could ultimately slow down the ability of contracting authorities to complete these projects.

In terms of amendments 66 and 67, I think there is a need for a time frame to be set down for the Minister's response, because contracting authorities will be in limbo until they receive a response, which could be several months in a worst-case scenario. Thank you, Chair. 

13:25

Thank you. And I call on Peredur Owen Griffiths to speak to amendments 76, 77, 78, 92 and any other amendment in this group.  

Diolch, Cadeirydd. I'll speak to the first of several amendments in this key area of the Bill, in Part 2. We've submitted three amendments to section 27 of the Bill, pertaining to social public works clauses in major construction contracts. For the first, in relation to equalities, it seems that the principle has been captured in the Bill, as introduced, but incomplete with certain oversights and omissions. Therefore, we've sought to add to the improvements section of the table, rather than insert a new equalities category in the left-hand column, although, arguably, there would certainly be merit in giving even greater focus, with a strengthened framing around equalities. 

O ran yr ail welliant, mae'n taro rhywun bod y Gymraeg yn absennol o'r tabl yma, ac mae'n allweddol ei bod yn cael ei phriod le ochr yn ochr â blaenoriaethau eraill sydd wedi eu nodi yn y tabl o gategorïau yr ydym yn dymuno eu huchafu a'u datblygu o fewn contractau caffael mawr, megis yr amgylchedd, hawliau gweithwyr a chydraddoldeb. Rydym hefyd, felly, yn cynnig ychwanegu categori penodedig o'r newydd ar gyfer y Gymraeg. 

In terms of the second amendment, it strikes one that the Welsh language is absent from this table, and it's vital that has its appropriate place alongside the other priorities noted in the table in terms of the categories that we want to develop in major procurement contracts, such as the environment, workers' rights and equalities. We also, therefore, propose to include a specific category for the Welsh language. 

Amendment 76 is crucial to make sure the Bill and the model clause, as Welsh Ministers will be obliged to publish under this section, set the gold standard in ensuring that new jobs and investment flowing from major construction contracts benefit groups and places that face structural barriers to work and have been under-represented in the workforce, therefore using procurement as a lever to create the nation of equals we want to see. As well as improving representation of these groups within and the diversity of the workforce at the most fundamental level, we envisage that expanding the improvements sought to include women, people of colour and LGBTQ+ people present an opportunity to use procurement levers to influence good practice in the private sector, for instance to advance the cause of equal pay. We know, from Chwarae Teg's latest state of the nation report, that the gender pay gap in Wales increased to 12.3 per cent. There is also an opportunity to encourage the extension of the same good practice that exists in the public services in one, granted, specifically, but nevertheless significant part of the private sector, in terms of shared parental leave, for instance. The possibilities are endless. This, in turn, will also help embed and bring to life, in a very practical sense, the aspirations that lie within our other commitments that are at the heart of Plaid Cymru's co-operation agreement with the Welsh Government, the disability taskforce, the LGBTQ+ action plan, and the race equalities action plan.  

Felly, hefyd, o ran y Gymraeg, fel y soniais, bydd gwelliant 77 yn ychwanegu Cymraeg fel categori at y tabl. Mae eisoes yn bolisi'r Llywodraeth i gynyddu nifer y gofodau Cymraeg, gan gynnwys gweithleoedd, ar draws y wlad. Byddai ychwanegu'r Gymraeg, felly, i'r tabl yma yn rhoi sail gadarn a chyfle arbennig i Weinidogion Cymru gyhoeddi cymalau enghreifftiol yn dangos yn union sut y dylai hynny ddigwydd yn y maes adeiladu. Ac mae rhywun yn meddwl am yr arfer da sy'n digwydd gan gwmnïau fel Jones Bros yn Rhuthun a chwmni Alun Griffiths. Mae Jones Bros yn gwmni sydd â'i bencadlys yn Rhuthun yn y gogledd, gyda thua hanner ei weithlu yn medru'r Gymraeg, ond sy'n gweithio ar draws Prydain. Sylwais ar ddyfyniad gan Hefin Lloyd-Davies o'r cwmni, oedd yn nodi nad oedd yn anarferol clywed y Gymraeg ar safleoedd adeiladu yn Peterborough, Hull a Buckinghamshire. Yn agosach at adref hefyd, roedd rhan helaeth o weinyddiaeth y cwmni ar ffordd osgoi Caernarfon-Bontnewydd yn Gymraeg. Mae cwmni Griffiths hefyd wedi rhoi arweiniad yn y maes yma, gyda'r grŵp hyrwyddwyr Cymraeg, ac wrth iddyn nhw weithio gyda swyddfa Comisiynydd y Gymraeg i greu hetiau caled gyda'r bathodyn oren 'Iaith Gwaith' arnyn nhw. 

Does dim rheswm pam na all y pocedi o arfer da yma ddigwydd yn ehangach, fel disgwyliad, nid eithriad. Buaswn i'n annog y Gweinidog a'i swyddogion i estyn allan i'r cwmnïau dwi wedi'u henwi, a swyddfa'r comisiynydd, ac i edrych ar yr hyn sy'n digwydd yn rhyngwladol mewn llefydd fel Gwlad y Basg, i weld beth sy'n bosib.

Also, in terms of the Welsh language, amendment 77 adds Welsh as a category to the table. It's already a policy of the Government to increase the number of Welsh language spaces, including workplaces, across the country. Adding the Welsh language to this table would provide a firm foundation and a particular opportunity for Welsh Ministers to publish model clauses to demonstrate how this should happen in the field of construction. And one would think about the good practice in companies such as Jones Bros in Ruthin and Alun Griffiths contractors. Jones Bros has its headquarters in Ruthin in the north of Wales, with almost half of its workforce being able to speak Welsh, but works across the UK. I noted a quote by Hefin Lloyd-Davies from the company, noting that it wasn't unusual to hear the Welsh language on construction sites in Peterborough, Hull and Buckinghamshire, for example. Closer to home too, a vast amount of the administration of the company in terms of the Caernarfon-Bontnewydd bypass was done in Welsh. Griffiths has also provided leadership in this field, with their Welsh language champions group, and as they worked with the Welsh Language Commissioner's office to provide hard hats with the 'Working Welsh' symbol on them. 

So, these pockets of good practice should be seen more widely as an expectation, not an exception. I would encourage the Minister and officials to reach out to the companies I've named, and the commissioner's office, and to look at what is happening internationally in places such as the Basque Country, to see what is possible.

The final amendment of ours in this grouping will give Ministers the power in the future to amend the table in section 27 via regulations. It would only allow Ministers to add categories, not to remove them, and would be subject to the affirmative resolution. Similar provisions can already be seen in this Bill, therefore additions to this section will help futureproof the legislation, subject to the appropriate oversight and agreement of the Senedd, should Ministers wish to exercise those powers in the future. Diolch. 

13:30

Before I call the Deputy Minister, does any other Member wish to speak on these points? Thank you. I call on the Member in charge to address the amendments in this group.

Diolch, Cadeirydd. I'll start with Joel James's amendments. No. 62 would include reference to 30 days in the prompt payment improvement category for the social public works clauses. We expect the UK-led Procurement Bill to grant regulatory powers to Welsh Ministers to make changes to this payment timescale, and we would reduce the 30-day provision should evidence suggest that this is the right thing to do. The model clauses drafted in this category would be amended to reflect any change.

Prompt payment and reference to 30 days are also mentioned in section 38, on procurement strategies, along with a clause allowing for amendments to this through regulations. Prompt payment in the social public works clauses therefore means 30-day payment, albeit this time period may be changed by regulations. I recommend that the committee rejects amendment 62.

Amendment 63 is not necessary, because appropriate training will, by definition, be about upskilling workers. One of the purposes of these social public works clauses is to make sure that the well-being outcomes that are enshrined in contracts between the contracting authority and prime contractor are monitored and delivered through what can be long and complex supply chains. Section 28(3) gives examples of the reasonable steps that contracting authorities can take to make sure that obligations agreed with a prime contractor are implemented throughout supply chains. It will be a matter for the contracting authority to decide what reasonable steps it should take, with the help of statutory guidance. Removing all but one of these examples of reasonable steps would be to weaken the contract management duties of this Bill. I recommend therefore that the committee rejects amendments 64 and 65.

Some stakeholders have raised concerns during consultation and scrutiny of this Bill about this duty on contracting authorities to notify Welsh Ministers if they do not intend to include the model clauses or monitor their implementation in supply chains. They are concerned that this process could delay a procurement, pending a consideration of the advice provided. It would seem reasonable and appropriate to limit the timescales within which Ministers should respond. However, if Ministers are not satisfied with the reasons given, they may request further information. If that information is not provided promptly or satisfactorily a 30-day response timescale may be impossible to meet. Expectations on timescales and procedures in relation to these notifications will be set out, therefore, more appropriately in statutory guidance. I recommend that the committee rejects amendments 66 and 67.

Turning to the amendments 76, 77, 78 and 92, proposed by Peredur Owen Griffiths in relation to the social public works clauses, these are about the categories of improvements within which these clauses will fall. As the Bill has been progressing through Stage 1 my officials have been holding some preliminary workshops on these social public works clauses with procurement managers, representatives from the construction industry and subject experts. The sessions on the employment category have included discussions about how these clauses might promote greater equality within the sector. I have also attended some meetings with representatives of the construction industry on socially responsible procurement and heard about how the industry is trying to improve its image and attract workers that are described as having protected characteristics under equality law.

I understand that the purpose of amendment 76 is to widen the relevant provision to include all protected characteristic groups. That is an intention I fully agree with exploring further, but the drafting of such a provision will need some careful consideration. I am happy to commit to looking at ways in which the Government might bring forward a future amendment to achieve the same end.

Amendment 77 is about promoting and facilitating use of the Welsh language in construction supply chains. Promoting use of the Welsh language has been raised in consultation, and again, it's something that, as you would expect us to do, we support fully in principle. However, the promotion of the Welsh language comes within the cultural well-being category, and what we will expect contracting authorities to consider in this area will be covered in statutory guidance and other parts of these procurement duties—for example, on the setting of objectives and publication of strategies and annual reports.

Peredur referred to the work of the Welsh Government policies and commitments to the ambitious target to increase the number of Welsh speakers to one million by 2050, and the various policies in respect of workplaces. Given the nature of the construction industry, with many small and medium-sized businesses in our supply chains on public contracts, we are concerned that placing obligations around Welsh language promotion may be disproportionate, making public sector contracts less attractive. Once again, I ask the committee to reject this amendment, but I am happy to ask officials to give this matter further thought and to update the committee in advance of Stage 3, and I definitely take on board the points that Peredur made with regards to the reference to best practice and particular companies to see what can be learned in respect of this legislation, or statutory guidance around that as well.

Amendment 78 allows for the categories and improvements to be amended in future. We do not think it likely that these categories will change, and it is important that we achieve the right balance between being comprehensive and also relevant and proportionate with these clauses. However, since we are recommending amendments allowing for changes by regulations to other parts of these procurement duties, we will give this further thought.

I recommend therefore that the committee rejects amendments 76, 77, 78 and 92, but I am happy to commit to consider these sections of the Bill further prior to Stage 3 of the Bill.

13:35

Thank you, Chair, and thank you, Deputy Minister. I'm grateful that you've recognised the issues that surround amendments 62. We're obviously disappointed that you've not supported them, as I feel that, without recognising the potential negative impact that this is going to have on those at the bottom of the subcontractor chain, this Bill could potentially be harmful to them and to other businesses. But, with that in mind, I still move for it to go to the vote. Thank you.

Okay. The question is that amendment 62 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] All those in favour of amendment 62. All those against. One Member in favour, five against, so amendment 62 is not agreed. 

Gwelliant 62: O blaid: 1, Yn erbyn: 5, Ymatal: 0

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 62: For: 1, Against: 5, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 76 (Peredur Owen Griffiths).

Amendment 76 (Peredur Owen Griffiths) moved.

I now move to amendment 76. The question is that amendment 76 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] All those in favour of amendment 76. All those against amendment 76. That's three in favour, three against. As this is a tied vote, I use my casting vote in the negative against the amendment in accordance with Standing Order 6.20. Therefore, amendment 76 is not agreed. 

Gwelliant 76: O blaid: 3, Yn erbyn: 3, Ymatal: 0

Gan fod nifer y pleidleisiau yn gyfartal, defnyddiodd y Cadeirydd ei phleidlais fwrw yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 6.20(ii).

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 76: For: 3, Against: 3, Abstain: 0

As there was an equality of votes, the Chair used her casting vote in accordance with Standing Order 6.20(ii).

Amendment has been rejected

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 63 (Joel James).

Amendment 63 (Joel James) moved.

The question is that amendment 63 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] All those in favour of amendment 63. All those against. One in favour, five against, therefore amendment 63 is not agreed. 

Gwelliant 63: O blaid: 1, Yn erbyn: 5, Ymatal: 0

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 63: For: 1, Against: 5, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 77 (Peredur Owen Griffiths).

Amendment 77 (Peredur Owen Griffiths) moved.

The question is that amendment 77 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] All those in favour of amendment 77. All those against amendment 77. Three in favour, three against. As this is a tied vote, I use my casting vote in the negative against the amendment in accordance with Standing Order 6.20. Therefore, amendment 63—is it 63—77 is not agreed. Apologies. Amendment 77 is not agreed. 

Gwelliant 77: O blaid: 3, Yn erbyn: 3, Ymatal: 0

Gan fod nifer y pleidleisiau yn gyfartal, defnyddiodd y Cadeirydd ei phleidlais fwrw yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 6.20(ii).

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 77: For: 3, Against: 3, Abstain: 0

As there was an equality of votes, the Chair used her casting vote in accordance with Standing Order 6.20(ii).

Amendment has been rejected

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 78 (Peredur Owen Griffiths).

Amendment 78 (Peredur Owen Griffiths) moved.

We move to amendment 78. If amendment 78 is not agreed, amendment 92 falls. The question is that amendment 78 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] All those in favour of amendment 78. All those against amendment 78. Three in favour, three against. As there's a tied vote, I use my casting vote in the negative against the amendment, in accordance with Standing Order 6.20. Therefore, amendment 78 is not agreed and amendment 92 falls.

13:40

Gwelliant 78: O blaid: 3, Yn erbyn: 3, Ymatal: 0

Gan fod nifer y pleidleisiau yn gyfartal, defnyddiodd y Cadeirydd ei phleidlais fwrw yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 6.20(ii).

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 78: For: 3, Against: 3, Abstain: 0

As there was an equality of votes, the Chair used her casting vote in accordance with Standing Order 6.20(ii).

Amendment has been rejected

Methodd gwelliant 92.

Amendment 92 fell.

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 64 (Joel James).

Amendment 64 (Joel James) moved.

The question is that amendment 64 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] All those in favour of amendment 64. All those against amendment 64. One in favour, five against, therefore amendment 64 is not agreed.

Gwelliant 64: O blaid: 1, Yn erbyn: 5, Ymatal: 0

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 64: For: 1, Against: 5, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 65 (Joel James).

Amendment 65 (Joel James) moved.

The question is that amendment 65 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] All those in favour of amendment 65. All those against amendment 65. One in favour, five against, therefore amendment 65 is not agreed.

Gwelliant 65: O blaid: 1, Yn erbyn: 5, Ymatal: 0

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 65: For: 1, Against: 5, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 66 (Joel James).

Amendment 66 (Joel James) moved.

The question is that amendment 66 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] All those in favour of amendment 66. All those against amendment 66. One in favour, five against, therefore amendment 66 is not agreed.

Gwelliant 66: O blaid: 1, Yn erbyn: 4, Ymatal: 1

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 66: For: 1, Against: 4, Abstain: 1

Amendment has been rejected

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 67 (Joel James).

Amendment 67 (Joel James) moved.

The question is that amendment 67 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] All those in favour of amendment 67. All those against. One in favour, five against, therefore amendment 67 is not agreed.

Gwelliant 67: O blaid: 1, Yn erbyn: 4, Ymatal: 1

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 67: For: 1, Against: 4, Abstain: 1

Amendment has been rejected

Grŵp 11: Y cod allanoli a’r gweithlu (Gwelliannau 5, 68, 6)
Group 11: Outsourcing and workforce code (Amendments 5, 68, 6)

We now move on to the next group, which is matters relating to outsourcing and the workforce code. The lead amendment is amendment 5 in the name of the Minister. 

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 5 (Hannah Blythyn).

Amendment 5 (Hannah Blythyn) moved.

So, Minister, would you please explain what amendment 5 is about and also amendment 6 and any matters that you may have to say about amendment 68?

Thank you, Chair. I'm bringing forward amendments 5 and 6 in response to this committee's Stage 1 recommendations 4 and 5, which proposed that,

'Welsh Ministers should be required to consult in relation to the Workforce Code to be made under section 32.'

These two amendments will ensure that, both in its initial development and any subsequent revisions, those affected by the code will be consulted. The amendments seek to ensure that initial consultation will take place at a formative stage when the code is being prepared. We are committed to consulting during the development of all statutory guidance on the procurement duties in this Bill and have already begun doing so. I therefore recommend that the committee accepts amendments 5 and 6.

Turning to amendment 68, put forward by Joel James, I recommend that the committee rejects the amendment on the basis that the role of the social partnership council is to advise Ministers, not to direct them.

Thank you. I call on Joel James to speak to the three amendments in this group.

Thank you, Chair. I'm supportive of the Deputy Minister's amendments, and with regard to mine, there isn't really much to add, other than it's designed to help strengthen the role of the SPC. Thank you.

Just to say that I agree with the Minister and I'm happy to support the amendments, but I think that there might be a way of going a little bit stronger on it, and I'd urge her to look into that for Stage 3 and to see if it could go a little bit further than she's gone currently. But I'm happy to support, as they are at the moment.

Okay. Does anybody else wish to speak before I ask the Minister to reply to the debate?

Thank you, Chair, and can I thank Members for their contributions? The Government amendments in this group are designed to place our commitment consulting on the workforce code and any subsequent amendments to it in law, and I commend these to the committee. I'd also urge committee members to reject amendment 68, which does not reflect the role of the SPC in advising Ministers.

Thank you. Therefore, the question is that amendment 5 be agreed to. Does any Member object? I see no objection, seeing that the amendment is in line with our recommendations, so amendment 5 is agreed.

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 17.34.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 17.34.

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 68 (Joel James).

Amendment 68 (Joel James) moved.

The question is that amendment 68 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] All those in favour of amendment 68. All those against amendment 68. One in favour, five against. Therefore, amendment 68 is not agreed.

13:45

Gwelliant 68: O blaid: 1, Yn erbyn: 5, Ymatal: 0

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 68: For: 1, Against: 5, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 6 (Hannah Blythyn).

Amendment 6 (Hannah Blythyn) moved.

I move amendment 6 in the name of the Deputy Minister. The question is that amendment 6 be agreed. Does any Member object? There is no disagreement. Therefore, amendment 6 is agreed.

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 17.34.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 17.34.

Grŵp 12: Cymalau gweithlu cyhoeddus cymdeithasol (Gwelliannau 69, 70)
Group 12: Social public workforce clauses (Amendments 69, 70)

We now move on to group 12, which relates to social public workforce clauses. There are two amendments, and both amendments are moved by Joel James. Joel James, 69 and 70.

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 69 (Joel James).

Amendment 69 (Joel James) moved.

Thank you, Chair. There's not really much more to say on this other than that these amendments relate to my earlier point regarding subcontractors being disadvantaged. Thank you.

Okay. The Minister in charge, do you wish to respond to these two clauses?

Yes, please, Chair. Just to refer—. As Joel James said, the amendments 69 and 70 to section 34 relate to the social public workforce clauses and mirror those that he proposed in relation to section 28 about social public works clauses. As I said previously, section 34(3) gives examples of the reasonable steps that contracting authorities can take to make sure that obligations agreed with an outsourced service provider are implemented whenever the services are outsourced.

One of the problems that has been identified in the operation of the existing two-tier workforce code is a lack of effective monitoring of the contract conditions during the life of the contract. Outsourcing services contracts can be long in duration, and monitoring is important to ensure that the terms, conditions, and pension arrangements of transferred workers are protected. It will be a matter for the contracting authority to decide what reasonable steps it should take, with the help of statutory guidance. Removing all but one of these examples of reasonable steps would be to weaken the contract management duties in the Bill. I therefore recommend that the committee rejects amendments 69 and 70.

Thank you, Chair. Obviously, it's disappointing not to have those two amendments accepted, and I'd still like to put it to the vote.

Obviously, I think this is the last one that I'm leading on, so I'd just like to take this opportunity to thank everyone for all the help and the support they've given me, from the legal department and the clerking team, and also from the group office and from my own staff as well. Thank you.

Thank you, Joel. The question is that amendment 69 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] All those in favour of amendment 69. All those against amendment 69. One in favour, five against. Therefore, amendment 69 is not agreed.

Gwelliant 69: O blaid: 1, Yn erbyn: 5, Ymatal: 0

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 69: For: 1, Against: 5, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 70 (Joel James).

Amendment 70 (Joel James) moved.

The question is that amendment 70 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] All those in favour of amendment 70. All those against. I didn't see your hand, Peredur. Thank you. Therefore, amendment 70 is not agreed, as one Member is in favour and five are against.

Gwelliant 70: O blaid: 1, Yn erbyn: 5, Ymatal: 0

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 70: For: 1, Against: 5, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 108 (Jane Dodds).

Amendment 108 (Jane Dodds) moved.

Yes, thank you, Chair. I'm not sure that there's anything additional to add. This relates to the concern I have around us codifying, on the face of the Bill, our responsibilities to human rights globally, and I would like this to go to a vote. Thank you, Chair.

Okay. The question is that amendment 108 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] All those in favour of amendment 108. All those against amendment 108. And any abstentions? So, that's two in favour, three against, and one abstention. Therefore, amendment 108 is not agreed.

Gwelliant 108: O blaid: 2, Yn erbyn: 3, Ymatal: 1

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 108: For: 2, Against: 3, Abstain: 1

Amendment has been rejected

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 109 (Jane Dodds).

Amendment 109 (Jane Dodds) moved.

The question is that amendment 109 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] All those in favour of amendment 109. All those against amendment 109. And any abstentions? So, two in favour, three against, and one abstention. Amendment 109 is not agreed.

Gwelliant 109: O blaid: 2, Yn erbyn: 3, Ymatal: 1

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 109: For: 2, Against: 3, Abstain: 1

Amendment has been rejected

Grŵp 13: Strategaethau caffael (Gwelliannau 79, 110, 80, 81, 71, 82)
Group 13: Procurement strategies (Amendments 79, 110, 80, 81, 71, 82)

We now move on to group 13, which relates to procurement strategies. The lead amendment, 79, is proposed by Peredur Owen Griffiths.

13:50

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 79 (Peredur Owen Griffiths).

Amendment 79 (Peredur Owen Griffiths) moved.

Diolch, Cadeirydd. For anyone following Welsh politics for the last decade or so, it will come as no surprise that I will be bringing forward amendments at this point in proceedings. What I'm about to say can apply equally to groups 13 through to 16. Public procurement has been central to Plaid Cymru's vision for building up Wales's economy for many, many years. Our 2021 Senedd manifesto estimated that 46,000 additional jobs could be created by increasing the level of Welsh public sector procurement from 52 per cent to 75 per cent using the Welsh Government's £6.3 billion public procurement budget and by working in close partnership with public bodies.

But this was not just our ask for 2021, it has consistently been put forward by us over the last decade. I can recall Leanne Wood, as leader of Plaid Cymru, urging the then First Minister, Carwyn Jones, in 2012 to harness the powers of public procurement to supercharge the Welsh economy and create tens of thousands of jobs. Imagine the difference an ambitious public procurement policy could have made over the last 10 years—which have been challenging, to say the least, for the Welsh economy—had the First Minister taken that advice on. I do not want people to be wondering in another 10 years' time what could have been achieved if this legislation had been more robust and ambitious when it comes to public procurement and the support of home-grown businesses. 

There will no doubt be those in Government and in the civil service that will level accusations at Plaid Cymru to say that they are not being realistic about what can be achieved in power. Those critics will say it's easy to make these demands from the sidelines. Well, Plaid Cymru-controlled Gwynedd Council have matched their words by deeds by supporting local businesses and raising public procurement within the local authority. Their actions have delivered a big boost for the local economy. This is achieved with political will and needs targets to keep this on track. 

So, how do we get there? Well, we've proposed a coherent set of proposals across groups 13, 14, 15 and 16 to achieve this overriding objective, which will work in a holistic way. It will work by strengthening contracting authorities' procurement strategies to include a guarantee that those strategies will ensure that authorities make practical and specific public commitments as to how they will encourage increased spend within local and Wales-based suppliers; ensuring that contracts registers will facilitate establishing precise data to allow an assessment of reasoned judgment based on evidence to be reached on the nature and profile of each supplier from which it procures; the annual socially responsible procurement reports will enable the contribution of the body's procurement activities and the value added to the local and Welsh economy to be measured for accountability and also provide a baseline for future development; and, the locally owned ambitions are included over time in this procurement strategy, as well as national targets set by Welsh Ministers.

The proposals are pragmatic, as they do have an appropriate timeline attached. The measures don't all come in at once, rather they will rightly come into force in a phased way. They also recognise that action must be taken at a local and national level in tandem, that the challenge requires a combination of leadership from the ground up and the national leadership role of Government in setting targets and also in collating data and analysing results by providing a national picture, as the amendments to section 42 would achieve. Thank you very much.  

I call on Jane Dodds to speak to her amendment 110 and all the other amendments in this group. 

Thank you, Chair, and thank you once again for the opportunity to speak on this issue. It relates to my previous point, which is in relation to our commitment to a global responsibility in relation to what we buy and procure here in Wales. Wales was the first Fairtrade Nation and the first Parliament, as you've heard, to declare a climate emergency. This Bill really lacks the ambition needed to tackle the climate crisis and to ensure that what we buy here in Wales does not cause both environmental destruction and human rights abuses and that we ethically practice what we want to achieve.  Other countries, such as France, and the state of California are in the process of establishing or have already established legislation and strategies to tackle issues such as imported deforestation. This is exactly what Wales needs to be doing, and therefore I move and support this amendment. Diolch yn fawr iawn, Chair.

13:55

Thank you, Chair. The only thing to say with my amendment 71 is that it just touches upon what was previously discussed about financial requirements.

Thank you. If no other Member wishes to speak, I call on the Deputy Minister to reply to the debate—well, to reply to these amendments.

I know what you meant, it's fine. Thank you, Chair. I think I'll start by acknowledging the shared agreement in the session in the Chamber around the power that we have through public procurement and to acknowledge, as Peredur did, that there have been examples of good practice in organisations across the country, which has seen results in the basis of the guidance that they've put in place as part of that.

I'll speak first, Chair, around the purpose of publishing procurement strategies, which is to improve transparency about the way in which a contracting authority carries out its procurement. Many public bodies already publish procurement strategies and review them from time to time. The duties in this Bill set out what must be included, but contracting authorities may include other information as they see fit. Strategies are linked to socially responsible procurement objectives in that they will set out the steps authorities intend to take to ensure that the objectives are met, and in turn, the reports will set out the extent to which bodies consider they are taking the steps to meet those objectives. These objectives will all be set in relation to the well-being goals and should deal with the extent to which procurement contributes to improving the economy of the authority’s area. Details of what is expected will be included in statutory guidance.

Amendment 79 is not needed, therefore, because the procurement strategy will already set out how authorities intend to meet their objectives. The wording in amendment 79 is also problematic, as there are no definitions of local and national suppliers, and this phrase is likely to bring the Bill into conflict with our obligations within international trade agreements, such as the World Trade Organization’s Government procurement agreement. The same problem arises in relation to amendment 80.

In addition, amendments 80 and 81 would seem to require that procurement strategies be updated each year in light of the relevant data to be published in a contracting authority’s annual socially responsible procurement report. While a strategy should be reviewed each year, it is not envisaged that it would need to be updated annually. A contracting authority may of course set itself numerical targets in relation to some of its well-being objectives, but that is not something that we believe should be required as part of this Bill. In any case, it would not be helpful to single out one of the well-being goals and apply a target-setting approach to it, and not the others. I therefore recommend that the committee rejects amendments 79 to 82.

Amendment 110 from Jane Dodds similarly singles out matters relating to the globally responsible Wales goal, requiring specific treatment as part of a procurement strategy. This amendment is not needed because the information will already be required under section 38, subsections (2)(a) and (2)(b), because that is an integral element of the well-being goals included within the strategies. I recommend therefore that amendment 110 should also be rejected.

And finally, Joel James’s amendment 71, which would remove the obligation on contracting authorities to review their procurement strategies each year. The purpose of this annual review is to check that the strategy aligns with the evidence presented in an authority’s annual report, and to provide an opportunity to bring it up to date if necessary. Without an annual review, there is a risk that these strategies may quickly become outdated and fail to fulfil their intended purpose. On that basis, I recommend that amendment 71 be rejected. Thank you.

Thank you, Minister. I call on Peredur Owen Griffiths to reply to the debate.

Thank you, Minister. I understand where you're coming from, and I do think that it goes to the heart of being able to say what gets measured gets done and having things specific in legislation to say that it puts the focus on authorities to keep these things in mind, and it really does push the authorities to really think about what they are trying to achieve, and by keeping that focus on and having that fed through the other amendments later through into an annual report by Welsh Ministers, it really does put the focus in, and as we go through these groups as they come forward, it'll be a similar theme that we're coming through, but I'll be wanting to move this to a vote if I can. Thank you.

Thank you, Peredur. The question is that amendment 79 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] All those in favour of amendment 79. All those against amendment 79. Any abstentions? Thank you. So, two in favour, three against, and one abstention. Amendment 79 is not agreed. 

14:00

Gwelliant 79: O blaid: 2, Yn erbyn: 3, Ymatal: 1

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 79: For: 2, Against: 3, Abstain: 1

Amendment has been rejected

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 110 (Jane Dodds).

Amendment 110 (Jane Dodds) moved.

The question is that amendment 110 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] All those in favour of amendment 110. All those against amendment 110. And any abstentions? So, two in favour, three against, and one abstention. Amendment 110 is not agreed.

Gwelliant 110: O blaid: 2, Yn erbyn: 3, Ymatal: 1

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 110: For: 2, Against: 3, Abstain: 1

Amendment has been rejected

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 80 (Peredur Owen Griffiths).

Amendment 80 (Peredur Owen Griffiths) moved.

The question is that amendment 80 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] All those in favour of amendment 80. All those against amendment 80. Thank you. Three in favour, three against. Therefore, there's a tied vote. I use my casting vote in the negative, against the amendment, in accordance with Standing Order 6.20.

Gwelliant 80: O blaid: 3, Yn erbyn: 3, Ymatal: 0

Gan fod nifer y pleidleisiau yn gyfartal, defnyddiodd y Cadeirydd ei phleidlais fwrw yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 6.20(ii).

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 80: For: 3, Against: 3, Abstain: 0

As there was an equality of votes, the Chair used her casting vote in accordance with Standing Order 6.20(ii).

Amendment has been rejected

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 81 (Peredur Owen Griffiths).

Amendment 81 (Peredur Owen Griffiths) moved.

The question is that amendment 81 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] All those in favour of amendment 81. All those against. Three in favour, three against. Therefore, in accordance with Standing Order 6.20, I use my casting vote in the negative. Therefore, amendment 81 is not agreed.

Gwelliant 81: O blaid: 3, Yn erbyn: 3, Ymatal: 0

Gan fod nifer y pleidleisiau yn gyfartal, defnyddiodd y Cadeirydd ei phleidlais fwrw yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 6.20(ii).

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 81: For: 3, Against: 3, Abstain: 0

As there was an equality of votes, the Chair used her casting vote in accordance with Standing Order 6.20(ii).

Amendment has been rejected

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 71 (Joel James).

Amendment 71 (Joel James) moved.

The question is that amendment 71 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] All those in favour of amendment 71. All those against. One in favour, five against. Therefore, amendment 71 is not agreed.

Gwelliant 71: O blaid: 1, Yn erbyn: 5, Ymatal: 0

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 71: For: 1, Against: 5, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 82 (Peredur Owen Griffiths).

Amendment 82 (Peredur Owen Griffiths) moved.

The question is that amendment 82 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] All those in favour of amendment 82. All those against. Two in favour, four against. Therefore, amendment 82 is not agreed.

Gwelliant 82: O blaid: 2, Yn erbyn: 4, Ymatal: 0

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 82: For: 2, Against: 4, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 111 (Jane Dodds).

Amendment 111 (Jane Dodds) moved.

Thank you. The question is amendment 111 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] All those in favour of amendment 111. All those against. Any abstentions? So, two in favour, three against, and one abstention. Amendment 111 is not agreed.

Gwelliant 111: O blaid: 2, Yn erbyn: 3, Ymatal: 1

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 111: For: 2, Against: 3, Abstain: 1

Amendment has been rejected

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 112 (Jane Dodds).

Amendment 112 (Jane Dodds) moved.

The question is that amendment 112 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] All those in favour of amendment 112. All those against. Any abstentions? Two in favour, three against, and one abstention. Therefore, amendment 112 is not agreed.

Gwelliant 112: O blaid: 2, Yn erbyn: 3, Ymatal: 1

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 112: For: 2, Against: 3, Abstain: 1

Amendment has been rejected

Grŵp 14: Adroddiadau blynyddol (Gwelliannau 83, 7)
Group 14: Annual reports (Amendments 83, 7)

We now move on to group 14, annual reports. The lead amendment is Peredur Owen Griffiths's amendment 83.

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 83 (Peredur Owen Griffiths).

Amendment 83 (Peredur Owen Griffiths) moved.

Diolch yn fawr. Thank you very much. In line with what I've said previously, this is a follow-on from the previous group of amendments, and it boils down to what gets measured gets done. So, by adding the focus and reporting lines in, the Minister will make it necessary for authorities to report, and if you have to report, then you have to collect the information. That's the purpose of the amendments. Thank you.

Before I call the Deputy Minister, does anybody else wish to speak on either of these two amendments, 83 and 7? Deputy Minister, if you'd like to speak to amendment 7 and anything else in relation to 83.

Thank you, Chair. The annual procurement reports are a critical part of the compliance and enforcement mechanisms in the Bill. Annual reports that are well structured and clear will better enable the SPC’s procurement sub-group to carry out their advisory functions, for example by identifying areas of strength and weaknesses. This may include areas where guidance needs to be improved, or training provided. The Bill as currently drafted does not explicitly require the contracting authority to publish any information, data or evidence to back up its review of the extent to which it's met its objectives, required under subsections 2(a) and 2(b). Our amendment 7 will improve the Bill by making explicit a requirement to publish evidence and data on the extent to which it is contributing to the achievement of the well-being goals. It includes examples of the types of information that might be required within regulations.

Turning to Peredur's amendment 83, this has the same aim of requiring evidence to support a contracting authority's narrative on the extent to which it has met its objectives. However, instead of placing these information requirements in regulations, as part of subsection 2(e), amendment 83 places these obligations within the requirements of the annual report. My view is that setting these requirements within regulations allows them to be amended more easily and enables a proportionate approach to be taken. For example, it may be reasonable for contracting authorities to collect and report data on carbon emissions for its larger procurements in some categories, but not in others. The subsection of amendment 83, which refers to local and national suppliers, is also problematic for the reasons that we discussed earlier. For these reasons, I recommend that the committee rejects amendment 83 and accepts Government amendment 7, on the understanding that we will commit to revisiting these sections should this Bill proceed to Stage 3.

14:05

Lovely. Thank you, Minister, and thanks for your points there. We'll be supporting the Minister's amendment, because it goes some way towards the improving of the annual report. I take on board what she said and welcome the fact that it'll be hopefully relooked at before Stage 3, assuming that this Bill proceeds. But I think it's important that we get a handle on that data collection element and that we understand what we're trying to collect and what we're trying to do when it comes to targets at a later date, or just by having quantitative measures in place, so that we understand what's happening with the Welsh pound—it's certainly important. I'll be supporting the Minister, but I'll be putting mine to a vote, please.

Okay. The question is that 83 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] All those in favour of amendment 83. All those against amendment 83. Any abstentions? Two in favour, three against, one abstention. Therefore, amendment 83 is not agreed.

Gwelliant 83: O blaid: 2, Yn erbyn: 3, Ymatal: 1

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 83: For: 2, Against: 3, Abstain: 1

Amendment has been rejected

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 7 (Hannah Blythyn).

Amendment 7 (Hannah Blythyn) moved.

I move amendment 7, in the name of the Deputy Minister. The question is that amendment 7 be agreed. Does any Member object? I don't see any objections, therefore amendment 7 is agreed.

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 17.34.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 17.34.

Grŵp 15: Cofrestr gontractau (gwybodaeth gofrestradwy) (Gwelliannau 8, 84, 85, 9, 86, 93)
Group 15: Contracts register (registrable interests) (Amendments 8, 84, 85, 9, 86, 93)

We now move on to group 15 of these amendments in relation to contracts registers. The lead amendment in this group is from the Deputy Minister. 

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 8 (Hannah Blythyn).

Amendment 8 (Hannah Blythyn) moved.

Therefore, I call on the Deputy Minister in charge of the Bill to speak to the lead amendment and the other amendments in this group.

Thank you, Chair. Members will recall that I confirmed after Stage 1 that I had accepted committee recommendation 16, which was that the Bill be amended to require contracting authorities to include the contractor's address on the register for each contract. Government amendments 8 and 9 will add this requirement to the existing duty on contracting authorities to publish a contracts register.

The purpose of the register is to increase transparency, giving potential sub-contractors and other interested parties easy access to information that an authority has in place on its suppliers. Amendments 8 and 9 are designed to make it easier for interested parties to contact a supplier who currently holds a contract through the inclusion of the address of the contractor's principal place of business, although recommendation 9 ensures that a supplier is not obliged to publish the address of their principal place of business if that happens to be a residential address. I recommend that the committee supports amendments 8 and 9.

Peredur Owen Griffiths also proposed amendments 84 to 86 and 93, which would see further details added to the content of the contracts register. These amendments are not designed to make it easier for interested parties to find out about existing contracts. Instead, they are about collecting data on the extent to which procurement is localised to facilitate target setting. It would be a labour-intensive exercise for contracting authorities to collect and maintain this information and may include information that could be intrusive. 

This serves to misunderstand the purpose of the contracts register, which is to provide interested parties with information about the contract itself, including how to contact the contractor. So, for example, information about the number of people employed by a contractor, and the sectors in which it operates, is not likely to be of direct interest to a potential sub-contractor or local citizen.

We will talk about target setting in the next grouping, but I would refer Members back to the points I made in our previous discussion on including data in annual reports: I suggest that the annual reporting regulations would be a better place to address some of the thinking behind amendments 84 to 86 and 93.

Officials are in the process of identifying sources of data that will best demonstrate the economic benefit of our procurement expenditure in Wales. This will help us to develop the regulations on the annual reporting duties in the Bill.

I therefore recommend that the committee rejects amendments 84 to 96 and 93. Thank you.

14:10

Peredur Owen Griffiths, I invite you to speak to 84, 85, 86 and 93, tabled in your name, and the other two amendments in this group.

Thank you very much, Chair. [Inaudible.]—what I've said already, but, for me, this part is about transparency, and it's getting that balance right between what's important for people to be able to see, what contracts are being held, and being able to, as the Minister says, contact the contractors and that sort of thing. But it also adds a little bit more information in there, so that it increases that transparency, and, obviously, a by-product of that is collecting data as well. If we're serious about creating a baseline for data and information that we hold so that we can improve things, then I think these amendments help towards that point, but I take on board what the Minister said. I will be supporting the Minister's amendments, but I think the amendments in my name would take it even further. Thank you.

Thank you, Chair. Just to say, briefly, that the Government amendments regarding the contracts, which are in this group, are designed to make more information available to citizens and potential suppliers about existing public sector contracts. Providing an address of the contractor's principal place of business will be helpful, and so I recommend amendments 8 and 9 to you. Just on amendments 84 to 86 and 93, to reaffirm what we said, we would suggest that the annual report and regulations would be a better place to address some of the thinking behind those amendments.

Okay. We'll now proceed to the vote. The question is that amendment 8 be agreed to. Does any Member object? I see no objections. Therefore, amendment 8 is agreed.

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 17.34.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 17.34.

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 84 (Peredur Owen Griffiths).

Amendment 84 (Peredur Owen Griffiths) moved.

The question is that amendment 84 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] All those in favour of amendment 84. All those against. Any abstentions? Two in favour, three against and one abstention. Therefore, amendment 84 is not agreed.     

Gwelliant 84: O blaid: 2, Yn erbyn: 3, Ymatal: 1

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 84: For: 2, Against: 3, Abstain: 1

Amendment has been rejected

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 85 (Peredur Owen Griffiths).

Amendment 85 (Peredur Owen Griffiths) moved.

The question is that amendment 85 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] All those in favour of amendment 85. All those against amendment 85. And any abstentions. So, two in favour, three against and one abstention.

Gwelliant 85: O blaid: 2, Yn erbyn: 3, Ymatal: 1

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 85: For: 2, Against: 3, Abstain: 1

Amendment has been rejected

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 9 (Hannah Blythyn).

Amendment 9 (Hannah Blythyn) moved.

I now move amendment 9 in the name of the Deputy Minister. The question is that amendment 9 be agreed. Does any Member object? I see no objections. Therefore, amendment 9 is agreed.     

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 17.34.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 17.34.

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 86 (Peredur Owen Griffiths).

Amendment 86 (Peredur Owen Griffiths) moved.

Just to point out to you, before we take this vote, if amendment 86 is not agreed, amendment 93 falls. Therefore, the question is that amendment 86 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] All those in favour of amendment 86. All those against. And any abstentions? So, one in favour, three against and two abstentions. So, amendment 86 is not agreed and amendment 93 falls.

14:15

Gwelliant 86: O blaid: 1, Yn erbyn: 3, Ymatal: 2

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 86: For: 1, Against: 3, Abstain: 2

Amendment has been rejected

Methodd gwelliant 93.

Amendment 93 fell.

Grŵp 16: Gosod targedau caffael (Gwelliannau 87, 88, 89, 90, 91)
Group 16: Setting of targets (Amendments 87, 88, 89, 90, 91)

We now move on to group 16, which has five amendments in relation to the setting of targets, all of which are proposed by Peredur Owen Griffiths. Peredur.

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 87 (Peredur Owen Griffiths).

Amendment 87 (Peredur Owen Griffiths) moved.

Thank you very much. Again, in referring back to what I've said previously, the lead amendment here places a duty on the Welsh Ministers to set targets within three years of the Act coming into force that seek to increase the value added to the Welsh economy through public procurement. The consequential amendments add a reporting requirement that ensures Welsh Ministers must provide information about the progress achieved against the targets. Now, this is directly out of the recommendation by this committee that

'The Welsh Government should bring forward amendments at Stage 2 which place a requirement on Welsh Ministers to set targets for the proportion of procurement spent in Wales and spent with specific types of suppliers such as SMEs or social enterprises. While time will be needed for the precise mechanics of data-gathering and monitoring to be worked out, these should be set within one year of implementation of the Act and no later than three years after its coming into force.'

That was our recommendation.

Obviously, the Minister, in responding, said,

'the Government accepts the recommendation in principle and we agree with the premise that we should be using public procurement to support the Welsh economy and this could be achieved through setting targets, as reflected in the co-operation agreement between the Welsh Government and Plaid Cymru.'

So, it comes as no surprise, as I've been talking about targets since stepping into this committee, and I'm sure everybody is fed up of me talking about them. But I do think that targets are not a stick to beat people around the head with, they are a lever and a mechanism for improvement, and we need continuous improvement within our public procurement. I've quoted figures before. We keep quoting a figure of 52 per cent of Welsh procurement, and I've no idea where that really stems from and I'd like to understand if that is a real figure, or whether or not it's something that is much higher or much lower. So, by measuring what we're doing currently, we're able to set a meaningful target moving forward, and, of course, if that target is too high or too low then it can be adjusted, but there is a mechanism here to be setting targets.

Having worked in industry and in the third sector, everyone sets targets because they want to know where they're going, and that's the whole point of setting a target: to give direction, to give an idea of what our ambition is. I've heard said about this Bill that we want it to fizz and we want to bring it alive. Well, I think that by setting a target, it does that and it sets that ambition.

So, I'd commend these amendments and look forward to what everybody's going to pile in and say about targets. I'm sure that won't happen, because we have discussed this at length in committee, but I do think it's a very important part of the things that I've said in the Chamber. By putting it pride of place on the face of this Bill, it makes us serious about public procurement, and that's why I propose these amendments. Thank you.

Thank you. Does any Member wish to 'pile in' at this point? Well, I will briefly to say that I've been here for 12 years or more, and we talk a lot about improving public procurement in order to improve the contribution the public pound makes to the economy of Wales, as well as to enable us to see how our net-zero ambitions are going to be achieved as we move forward. So, I hope, in the Minister's reply, you're able to clarify how we are going to step up the pace of change, whilst not making impossible targets for public bodies. Minister.

14:20

Thank you, Chair. In responding, in my opening remarks, I think I said this is the first time we are legislating on procurement in Wales, recognising, as you say, the value and the strength and the potential that we have in the levers through public procurement in Wales, but ensuring that we do have that proportionality as well—we do not make it so restrictive that it makes it difficult for people to achieve anything by trying to tell them that they need to do everything. That's what we're seeking to do within this legislation.

The procurement duties in this Bill are designed to ensure that contracting authorities place greater focus on contributing to the well-being goals when they are designing and carrying out their procurement and managing contracts. The Bill’s mechanisms for achieving improvement are greater transparency through the publication of objectives, strategies and reports, the advice provided by the SPC’s procurement sub-group and the provision for procurement investigations.

We consulted on this approach with our draft Bill in February 2021. Those consulted, and our social partners, have supported this overall approach to pursuing improvement in the well-being outcomes achieved through public procurement. I’m pleased that, through the co-operation agreement, we've been able to reach some consensus in the form of the words proposed in the Government's amendment 7. We have held numerous discussions on the best mechanisms for achieving what I believe is a shared ambition. The discussions have also made clear the Government’s view that setting targets through legislation is probably not the most fitting, nor possibly effective, way to drive improvement.

Focusing on national metrics and setting targets against these would be unhelpful when each contracting authority has its unique circumstances in terms of its location and remit within Wales, and the types of procurement it undertakes. What 'good' looks like will not be the same for contracting authorities in different sectors and different locations, and a target might be impossible for one organisation to achieve while, for another, the same target might be below current levels of performance. Neither would encourage meaningful activity.

The alternative approach to achieving more consistent improvements in the achievement of well-being outcomes, including on the contribution that procurement makes to our economy in Wales, is included in the Bill and has two elements. Firstly, it is about setting out in statutory guidance the steps that contracting authorities should take to improve well-being outcomes through procurement. Secondly, as we discussed earlier, it is about developing a suite of metrics that will best reflect the extent to which procurement contributes to well-being outcomes and to our economy, identifying sources of data and what we can expect contracting authorities to collect through their procurement and contract management. This will allow a set of meaningful data to be collected and included in annual reports, which may be considered by the social partnership council and its procurement sub-group. The committee is, therefore, asked to reject amendments 87 to 91. Thank you.

Thank you, Chair, and thanks for your comments. I know we're a fair distance away on this on agreement, but I think that what might be of value is—. You were talking about different sectors. Well, within that guidance and the step by step that's moving and by laying out the steps needed, would it be interesting to see in the guidance whether or not sector-specific movements could be measured and potentially even, dare I say it, put a target in place, or a quantitative measure in place, to see how it does move from where it is now to where it's going and what that baseline means now so that we do see that improvement? Like you said, Chair, it's how we move it. We talk about it a lot, but how do you move it and how do people in our communities realise where that pound is being spent in a better way? So, thank you for your response. I'll be moving these to a vote, but I appreciate where you've come from, and I think the meaningful discussions that we've had around this have been very, very important. So, thank you very much.

Thank you. The question is that amendment 87 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] All those in favour of amendment 87. All those against. So, two votes in favour, four against. Therefore, amendment 87 is not agreed. 

14:25

Gwelliant 87: O blaid: 2, Yn erbyn: 4, Ymatal: 0

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 87: For: 2, Against: 4, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 88 (Peredur Owen Griffiths).

Amendment 88 (Peredur Owen Griffiths) moved.

The question is that amendment 88 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] All those in favour of amendment 88. All those against. Two in favour, four against. Therefore, amendment 88 is not agreed. 

Gwelliant 88: O blaid: 2, Yn erbyn: 4, Ymatal: 0

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant 

Amendment 88: For: 2, Against: 4, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 89 (Peredur Owen Griffiths).

Amendment 89 (Peredur Owen Griffiths) moved.

The question is that amendment 89 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] All those in favour of amendment 89. All those against. Two votes in favour, four against. Therefore, amendment 89 is not agreed. 

Gwelliant 89: O blaid: 2, Yn erbyn: 4, Ymatal: 0

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 89: For: 2, Against: 4, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 90 (Peredur Owen Griffiths).

Amendment 90 (Peredur Owen Griffiths) moved.

The question is that amendment 90 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] All those in favour of amendment 90. All those against. Therefore, two votes in favour, four against. Therefore, amendment 90 is not agreed. 

Gwelliant 90: O blaid: 2, Yn erbyn: 4, Ymatal: 0

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 90: For: 2, Against: 4, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 91 (Peredur Owen Griffiths).

Amendment 91 (Peredur Owen Griffiths) moved.

Amendment 91. The question is that amendment 91 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] All those in favour of amendment 91. All those against. Two votes in favour, four against. Therefore, amendment 91 is not agreed. 

Gwelliant 91: O blaid: 2, Yn erbyn: 4, Ymatal: 0

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 91: For: 2, Against: 4, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 113 (Jane Dodds).

Amendment 113 (Jane Dodds) moved.

Thank you. The question is that amendment 113 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] All those in favour of amendment 113. All those against. Therefore, two votes in favour, three against, one abstention. Therefore, amendment 113 is not agreed.  

Gwelliant 113: O blaid: 2, Yn erbyn: 3, Ymatal: 1

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 113: For: 2, Against: 3, Abstain: 1

Amendment has been rejected

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 114 (Jane Dodds).

Amendment 114 (Jane Dodds) moved.

The question is that amendment 114 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] All those in favour of amendment 114. All those against. Any abstentions? Therefore, two in favour, three against and one abstention. Amendment 114 is not agreed. 

Gwelliant 114: O blaid: 2, Yn erbyn: 3, Ymatal: 1

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant

Amendment 114: For: 2, Against: 3, Abstain: 1

Amendment has been rejected

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 115 (Jane Dodds).

Amendment 115 (Jane Dodds) moved.

The question is that amendment 115 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] All those in favour of amendment 115. All those against. Any abstentions? So, two in favour, three against and one abstention. Amendment 115 is not agreed.  

Gwelliant 115: O blaid: 2, Yn erbyn: 3, Ymatal: 1

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant. 

Amendment 115: For: 2, Against: 3, Abstain: 1

Amendment has been rejected

Grŵp 17: Canllawiau a dod i rym (Gwelliannau 10, 11)
Group 17: Guidance and coming into force (Amendments 10, 11)

We now come to the last section, group 17, which is the guidance and the coming into force, and both amendments are proposed by the Minister in charge. I call on Hannah Blythyn to explain the purpose of these amendments. 

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 10 (Hannah Blythyn).

Amendment 10 (Hannah Blythyn) moved.

Thank you Chair. The committee’s Stage 1 recommendation 5 asked that we add a duty to consult in developing or revising the socially responsible public procurement guidance we will be issuing in due course. I confirmed at the time that the Government accepted that recommendation, and this proposed amendment to section 43 would place a requirement on Welsh Ministers to consult on the statutory guidance that will be published in relation to the procurement duties in the Bill. We intend to work with social partners and consult with relevant stakeholders on all statutory guidance, and have already begun doing so. This amendment will turn this intention into a requirement, and so I recommend that the committee supports amendment 10.

Amendment 11 amends the commencement provisions, commencing section 48 on the day after this Bill receives Royal Assent. This is in line with the usual approach taken to the commencement provisions in Senedd Acts, allowing Ministers to commence the other provisions of the Bill, once enacted, by Order. This a technical amendment that does not affect the substance of the Bill, and I encourage members to support it. Thank you. 

Does any Member wish to speak to these amendments? I don't see anyone wishing to speak. Therefore, the lead amendment is amendment 10. The question is that amendment 10 be agreed. Does any Member object? I see no objection. Therefore, amendment 10 is agreed. 

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 17.34.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 17.34.

The final amendment, as both amendment 92 and amendment 93 have fallen because of previous votes, is amendment 11, in the name of the Deputy Minister.

14:30

Cynigiwyd gwelliant 11 (Hannah Blythyn).

Amendment 11 (Hannah Blythyn) moved.

The question is that amendment 11 be agreed. Does any Member object? I see no objection. Therefore, amendment 11 is agreed.

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 17.34.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 17.34.

Thank you very much, Deputy Minister, and to your officials, for your attendance. We'll, obviously, provide you with a transcript of the meeting to check for factual accuracy. This, therefore, completes Stage 2 proceedings. Stage 3 begins tomorrow, and the relevant dates for Stage 3 proceedings will be published in due course, but I think there's already a putative date in the Plenary timetable. Standing Orders make provision for the Deputy Minister to prepare a revised explanatory memorandum taking account of the amendments agreed today. The revised memorandum will be laid at least five working days before Stage 3 proceedings. We, therefore, look forward to Stage 3 proceedings, based on the work that we have carried out today. I thank all for their attendance, and we look forward to the Plenary debate in Stage 3.

Barnwyd y cytunwyd ar bob adran o’r Bil.

All sections of the Bill deemed agreed.

Daeth y cyfarfod i ben am 14:31.

The meeting ended at 14:31.