Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru

I'd like to welcome Members to the meeting of the Children, Young People, and Education Committee this morning. The public items of this meeting are being broadcast live on Senedd.tv and a Record of Proceedings will be published as usual. The meeting is bilingual and simultaneous translation is available from Welsh to English. We have had no apologies this morning. Are there any declarations of interest from Members? No, I see no declarations of interest. 

We'll move on to the first item on our agenda, which is our first evidence session of 'Do disabled children and young people have equal access to education and childcare?'. I'd like to welcome our witnesses this morning. Here today, we have Rocio Cifuentes, Children’s Commissioner for Wales, and Sara Jermin, head of communications and performance. Thank you, you're very welcome here this morning.

We're going to go straight into some questions; Members have a number of questions for you this morning. To what extent do you think that children's rights to an education are being denied due to their disability, learning disability or being neurodivergent? Do you think that there are any differences between these wide groups of children and young people?

Diolch yn fawr am y gwahoddiad. Thank you very much for the invitation today and the opportunity to share with you on this really important topic. I'm going to be sharing with you what I've heard, based on the first year in my role, and, also, based on an extensive survey we conducted, with over 8,000 responses, with children across Wales; and, also, building on previous experience that I've had prior to this role, working with young people with disabilities, and previous work that my office has done on this topic. In recent weeks, I've also been able to speak to a number of young people in different settings, including two different special schools, to hear from them directly what they think about these questions.

Overall, what I have heard has been very concerning and does indicate strongly that there is a clear difference in the way that children and young people with disabilities can access their education, and a clear difference in how they feel about that access. I'm going to go into all of those issues in a lot more detail, but, overall, just to give you some headlines before I get into the detail, I am hearing a lot about experiences of bullying and discrimination that children and young people with disabilities have told me about, and that includes physical and learning disabilities and neurodivergent young people. I'm also hearing a lot about what they perceive as a lack of awareness, but also, sometimes, problematic attitudes towards them from education professionals as well as in wider society. I've also heard a lot about difficulties that they have experienced in relation to accessing provision and activities, particularly outside of school, so, extra-curricular activities are a key area of concern.

That is difficult to access for different reasons, one is that there is limited provision anyway that is accessible to them. But another huge barrier is transport, and being able to access those facilities and services outside of school is impossible for most of the young people I spoke to, due to transport barriers. Thirdly, in relation to the information about the services that they can access and that they're entitled to, this seems to be a confused picture. There seem to be difficulties in getting clarity and clear information. I heard different examples of the roles of the local authority and schools in that sense. Then, fourthly, huge anxieties but also a huge gap overall in relation to information, planning and support for where they go after school for that post-19 provision and pathways to employment, pathways to further education. All of that seemed to be an area that was, overall, significantly weaker than what children without disabilities might expect. So, they are the overarching issues that I'm going to go into more detail on.

Thank you very much, and I'm sure we've got more questions, and you rightly said you're going to go into some more detail on that. Just for clarity, do you think there's a difference between those three groups that I mentioned, whether it's a disability, learning disability or being neurodivergent? Are there differences between those three groups of children and young people? Are you saying that you feel there is or—?

I think, yes, there are differences. One of the main differences relates to the extent to which their disabilities may be hidden, and, therefore, the support or the attitudes that they experience because other people don't know that they may have a disability. I think that was a clear theme across the conversations that I have had. Often, when a child or a young person does have a disability that is not visible, or is hidden, they feel that they experience a higher level of, sometimes, lack of awareness, but it can sometimes turn into outright hostility or a very negative reaction, or it could be that that child is then disciplined in school for behaviour that is in fact related to their disability, but instead, they are seen as being naughty and challenging.

One comment that I heard from the Ambitions for Wales survey that I carried out, from a professional, is that we need to move from talking about challenging behaviour to talking about behaviour that challenges, and to think about why are teachers, professionals and adults feeling challenged by that young person's behaviour: is it to do with lack of capacity to respond, with lack of awareness, with lack of time or space? I thought that was a really interesting comment—that it's not the behaviour that is challenging, it is the people around them who feel challenged by that behaviour.

Thank you very much. We'll go on to some questions now from Sioned Williams. Sioned.

In terms of preschool childcare, there is very little provision available that is specialist, and this is a huge gap that's been widely acknowledged. When there is provision, very often, there's a financial cost to that. In terms of after-school and out-of-school provision, again, there is very little that is accessible to children and young people with physical and learning disabilities, and even when that provision is there, transport to access that provision is a significant barrier.

So, those were the main barriers that I’ve heard about, and I think, overall, what I heard from parents is that not being able to access that childcare for their disabled child in the same way that they might for a non-disabled child has really increased the burden on the parent and the whole family, but also their sense of isolation. And sometimes, that added pressure on the whole family just has a huge impact on the well-being of the whole family, and particularly, it can often be very difficult for families to access suitable childcare, because they might be geographically very far away, and in terms of trying to then arrange, maybe, if—. A parent told me that, perhaps, because they had to take their child to a very specialist provision, when they were running late, for their non-disabled children, they could call on a wider network in that locality to pick up the child, but for their disabled child, because they were in a very far-away location, that wider support network was not there.

And I think, overall, what I wanted to mention earlier is that that there’s a very different experience for children and families who are accessing specialist provision, which is specialist for disabled, whether it be physical or learning disability, to the experience of children who are in mainstream settings, and experience a very different set of challenges. And I think that tension currently between mainstream or specialist provision is something that, as a committee, you may like to explore further.

I have anecdotal evidence, mainly, but I’m aware, obviously, that local authorities are expected to undertake a childcare sufficiency assessment, but I can refer to comments that were made to my office as part of our work on the 'no wrong door' approach and the report that we published recently, which was a book of experiences of families with children who are neurodiverse. We worked with and spoke to one charity based in Mountain Ash, which was the co-founder of a charity called ASD Rainbows, which was a particular service for preschool children with autism. I’ll just read her quotes. She said that they were so unique in the service that they provide, and that parents were reaching out and are desperate when they go to them. She said that, if they weren’t here, she really wouldn’t like to think where the parents would be and that children are waiting up to three years for a diagnosis, and in the meantime there is no support available. So, I think there is very little provision for this particular group of children with these needs.

Diolch, Sioned. I don’t know, but from what I have heard from children, young people, parents and professionals, I think 'very little' or 'not enough' seems to be their experience of being consulted. There seems to be a real difficulty in parents finding out about the accessibility of different schools that are in their areas. I'm aware that local authorities are required to publish plans around the physical accessibility, but this doesn't seem to always happen, or that information is not easily accessible on websites, and parents are really struggling just having to research for themselves how accessible different schools are, having to undertake visits, and, even when they do have their children in schools, full accessibility is a real rarity and it seems that—. The comments that I've been hearing are that it doesn't seem that people with disabilities have actually been involved in the planning or the specification, sometimes, particularly with new builds. Sometimes there are very obvious but very specific changes that, had they been made, would have made a huge difference to the accessibility of those schools, and I think, overall, it is—. One comment that I heard talked about the lack of disabled teachers in the workforce, and I think that that could be something that the committee could reflect on, because, similar to the work that's been done on race and the need for representation of ethnic minority teachers in the workforce, I think the same could be argued for teachers and educators with disabilities, so that that lived experience really feeds into the whole planning of the system throughout.

Diolch, Sioned. Sorry, was the question to what extent do children and young people feel directly discriminated against because of their disability? Yes. I think there is a range of experiences, and for some children and young people they are not as aware of being directly discriminated against, but for many they are aware of it, and I think one feature of my Ambitions for Wales survey, which as I mentioned earlier had over 8,000 responses from children and young people, was the high prevalence of those young people who had experienced bullying and identity-based bullying or bullying because of their difference.

From those 8,000 responses, around 6 per cent of those had a disability themselves, and of those children, over 60 per cent had themselves experienced bullying. So, I do think that bullying is one type of direct discrimination that those children and young people had clearly experienced, and then the other comments that I heard about were more indirect discrimination, you could call it, in terms of lack of awareness and sometimes poor attitudes towards their disability, particularly towards more hidden disabilities.

But also, I heard about examples from parents of children with physical disabilities, that they felt that they were made to feel grateful for the support and entitlements that they felt their children—. Well, their children are entitled to education, as is every other child in Wales, but there was a sense that they should feel grateful or that they should have to be thanking people because of special arrangements or provisions that had been made for their child.

So, I think it's a spectrum from direct to indirect discrimination, but I think the underlying message that I heard is definitely that children and young people with disabilities are made to feel different, that they do feel that they are not treated equally to others, and that this does impact on their experience of education, whether it's them being bullied in a classroom, whether they're not being treated in the way that they should be by teachers, or whether they're not able to access the same activities as their friends after school. It's the reality in their lives, unfortunately, that it's not the same for them.

Diolch, Sioned. Questions now from Laura Jones. Laura.

Thank you, Chair. Yes, you paint a very stark picture, a really concerning picture, commissioner, but it's something that I recognise from my own postbag and it's very abundantly clear, just within my own region, that there's a postcode lottery when it comes to provision here. But, it's really reassuring to hear you recognising all of the problems that I'm hearing. What do you think—? In terms of one of the main barriers that I've recognised, that children are not being identified quickly enough, as you said—you outlined it yourself just now, actually—it's something I've brought up with the Minister numerous times about them not being statemented quickly enough and therefore the money not following to the schools quickly enough, and then them not getting the one-to-one support that they need, or perhaps the adaptations. What do you think are the barriers and challenges to providing inclusive statutory education and childcare within mainstream and specialist schools? Thank you.

There are many barriers, I think, going through, starting with attitudes and awareness, then there's the clear need for more training and support for teachers; there's a need for more resources; there's a need for more physical space often in schools to meet the needs of children with a range of disabilities. So, those are kind of all, I guess, cultural and attitudinal barriers and also physical. There is a need, I think, to make sure that it has to be—. The words 'whole-school approach' are a little over-used, I think, but it has to be from a whole kind of fundamental, from top to bottom, in terms of how a school is equipped to identify, respond to, and manage the different needs of their different pupils. A really inclusive education should be able to see the needs of each child as unique, and be able to respond to that child's needs quickly and inclusively.

My 'A No Wrong Door Approach to Neurodiversity' report and work have highlighted the problems when needs are not recognised quickly enough, and then, when they are recognised, when they're not responded to quickly enough. I'll just quote one quote from that report, which was from a clinical psychologist, Dr Mair Edwards, who said that: 

'Without doubt...children and young people have suffered long term harm because of the unreasonable delay before their needs are officially recognised. How can it be acceptable for a child to wait years for an assessment of their needs when research shows clearly that appropriate support and intervention in the early years is so important?' 

So, it's the lack of recognition of needs; the length of time that it takes to actually officially recognise and diagnose needs; and then the lack of support that's available after those needs are diagnosed. The ability currently of mainstream schools to respond to that is limited because there is a huge burden on schools anyway; they need more resources, more capacity, and in terms of specialist schools, the same is true, actually. The school I visited only last week has doubled in size in the last seven years due to increasing demands for their provision. So, it is a huge challenge that I think is one—. I'm so glad that this committee is looking at this in such focus.

Thank you. Laura, I'm just going to bring in James on this point. James.

Thank you, children's commissioner. It's good to see the things that you've highlighted, what your office is doing, but what are you doing with those to make sure the Government's being held accountable for these things? Because it's very good making reports, but also your job is to hold the Welsh Government to account over these matters. I'm just interested to know what you are actually doing to hold the Government to account over it rather than producing a report. What conversations have you had with Ministers about it?

I have—. We do produce reports; we do produce recommendations; we make formal recommendations to Government, which Government then respond to, and that is the structure through which I hold Government to account. I cannot, unfortunately, force Government to do anything, but I can make strong recommendations and I can scrutinise the progress that they make, or not, towards those recommendations. I have made many recommendations relating to this issue, and my office has historically done so also. We published a series of reports, two different reports, looking at accessibility, physical accessibility to schools. We have published a series of reports, again, looking at neurodiversity, and I will continue to highlight and challenge different Ministers and members of the Government on their progress on this important issue.

I'll come back to it later. Thank you.

Laura.

Thank you. Yes, I completely recognise what you said, actually, commissioner, because every school I've visited across Wales, the first thing they've said to me, if I asked them is there a problem, is that waiting to be assessed for the needs and getting those statements, because, otherwise, the money doesn't follow and they can't do anything. And normally, it's not through a lack of wanting to do anything; it's just that their hands are tied because the school budgets are so stretched, as you've just pointed out, so it's good to hear you recognising that. To what extent do you believe the school estate is more accessible for learners with all types of disability than when the 'Full Lives: Equal Access' report was published?

It does seem that, from the two reports that my office published previously, I think the reports identified that progress between those two reports had been slow. And it does seem that—. I would say that, overall, the people that I spoke to, including children and young people, recognise that there has been some progress, but that progress has not been quick enough. And particularly the gap, it seems that there has been more progress, particularly in relation to physical accessibility, but the accessibility and attitudes towards hidden disabilities is where progress needs to be made much more quickly now.

Can I jump in there? Just in terms of predating Rocio's term in office, Keith Towler obviously published the first report in 2014, and then a follow-up report in 2018. And, as a result of that follow-up report, Government did accept the need to update its statutory guidance. So, touching on James's question there in terms of the effect of the commissioner's reports, Government did accept the recommendation and update 14-year-old guidance as a result of that report. We did make significant suggestions to Government on how that guidance could be further strengthened, linking it to the children's rights approach. Those views weren't embedded into the final statutory guidance.

Other recommendations touched on the role of local authorities—so, touching back on Sioned's comments there about the implementation of strategies—all local authorities obviously should publish those strategies on their websites. We're not convinced that those are being published and are being made accessible to children and their families. So, in terms of developments in relation to 'Full Lives: Equal Access', we did secure updated statutory guidance. It's the implementation of that now that would be interesting for the committee to maybe focus efforts on, and we'll obviously continue to persevere in encouraging Government to strengthen that guidance, to take a children's rights approach. The commissioner has also published templates for local authorities on undertaking those strategies and engagement with children and young people, based on a children's rights approach, so we have provided support to local authorities, if they wish to take it up.

Thank you. The Welsh Government revised its increasing access for disabled pupils planning guidance in 2018. Are you satisfied with that revised guidance?

I think on that, yes. I think, as Sara has said, we were pleased that that guidance was eventually published, but I think the position from the office is that that still could be strengthened further by making closer links to a children's rights approach and involving learners and the school community more in decisions about school facilities. In September, the office's views were shared with the Welsh Government on how that guidance could be further strengthened, but that advice and those recommendations were not taken up as we had hoped.

I've got two more questions for you, but you've already touched on them, so I'm not going to go into them deeply. I just wanted you to expand on it. You've said that transport is an issue already—suitable transport for learners with disabilities, learning disabilities or neurodivergent behaviours. So, what do you think—? Are there massive differences between the local authorities? Obviously, you're probably going to say it's a major barrier, but is it pushing people into home schooling, just as a thought, because of the geographical postcode lottery of good provision? Thanks.

Thank you. I think the issue and the experience and the availability of transport do seem to hugely vary between different local authorities. I'm aware also that it's a real challenge for local authorities as well to procure suitable transport. It is an issue. It's a huge issue for all children and young people, not only those with disabilities, but it is a particularly difficult barrier for those children with disabilities. Overall, my office has pushed very hard and made several recommendations to Government around updating the Learner Travel (Wales) Measure 2008, the review of which is very overdue. That was also one of my most recent formal recommendations. It is just an issue that makes such a fundamental difference to children and young people's lives.

We heard in one special school that I attended—and I was speaking to a group of 14 to 16-year-olds—that, of that group of nine young people, only two of them were able to access any out-of-school provision, because of transport. Their teacher reflected to us that this lack of transport was really increasing their isolation and driving all of their social life outside of school to be completely online. We know ourselves how that felt during the pandemic, but to be forced into the situation for the whole of your childhood and young adulthood, for the whole of those years, you can just imagine the long-term impact of that on their mental health and on their well-being. So, I think it's not only an issue about physically getting to activities for fun; it's because of their mental health and their well-being that that's so important. 

And—sorry, Laura—in terms of home education, I did hear some comments that might suggest that there can be some links to parents and families making the decision to home educate, but I think overall that wasn't something that I heard a lot.

Can I just bring—sorry, Laura—James back in on this point as well? 

It's on transport. You said you made strong recommendations to Government on this. I know others made recommendations to Government on this, and they're not listening. Why do you think that is? Why do you think Government just aren't listening to you, and others, around these issues? In your role as children's commissioner, why don't you think they're listening?

I feel that the current situation in terms of children's rights and children's voice in Wales is that, despite the power and the privilege of my own role, I think it is still a relatively fragmented picture, and that we have several different ways of listening to children, including through my office, including through the Youth Parliament, including through youth participation structures, which exist through local authorities. But currently those voices are not joined up, and I feel that they could be more powerful if they were joined up more effectively, and would therefore hopefully be listened to more. That is my ambition. At the moment, I do my best, the Youth Parliament do their best, youth participation workers do their best. We all agree on the importance of transport, and we all agree that it should be made free or much, much more accessible and subsidised for children and young people. There is lots of evidence about the benefits that that would bring financially, in terms of the cost-of-living crisis, but also longer term, in terms of the climate emergency that we're facing and the ambitions to be a net-zero economy. So, I don't know, I guess it's a question of resources, but, you know, we have resources for some things, so I really hope that this is listened to.

It's a shame that the Government don't listen to a position that they appointed you to. I think it's just a shame, really, that you're there to represent young people's voices and the Government invented the position but they don't even listen to it—I just think it's a shame. Thank you, Chair.

Thanks, James. Laura, did you have any more questions?

Yes, just one. I just wanted to say that I know that, cross-party, we all feel the same on this—on what James has just said. You talked about bullying in your opening statement, and the fact that you think that that's an experience that is, unfortunately, something that people with disabilities and learning disabilities, and those who are neurodivergent, experience a lot, possibly more than others. To what extent do you think that the support and interventions by schools and local authorities are adequate in this regard? I know that people have got questions on mental health later, but if you could just touch on that, that'd be great, thank you.

From my Ambitions for Wales survey, the experience of bullying was, unfortunately, very prevalent across the board, but was higher for children with disabilities than those without disabilities. Overall, I am very concerned that the response from schools in relation to bullying is not adequate, is not good enough. Despite the huge efforts and progress that have been made in relation to statutory guidance about bullying, the reality is that, in terms of the implementation and the practice of schools, there's a long way to go in terms of strengthening that, and, also, ensuring that children and young people actually understand what that practice is and what they can expect if they experience bullying, what they can expect if they report it and how people who carry out the bullying will be treated and managed. I think there is a long way to go, and this is something that I have been highlighting. It's not just in relation to disability; it's in relation to other protected characteristics as well.

The statistics from my survey, as I mentioned earlier, were that 60 per cent of the children with a disability who responded to my survey said themselves that they had experienced bullying, and 90 per cent of those had experienced that bullying within schools. So, I think it's very worrying that this is happening in schools, so much so, despite the efforts and despite the guidance that I know the Government has made a lot of effort to make sure that is in place. But peers and teachers need more support, more awareness and more clarity, really, on how to manage these situations, what bullying looks like, what the impact of it is, what to do once it's reported, how to support victims and perpetrators, and how to have conversations about the issues that lead to bullying. This is a huge area of practice where I have also heard from teachers that they would like more support and resource too. 

Yes, absolutely, the teachers too, and also parents, particularly of younger children. I've had a lot of casework that parents feel like they're not being listened to when their children are being bullied—when they're representing them. I don't know where the buck stops, so that seems to be a problem—there's no end person to make the decision to help them. It just gets lost. I just wanted to add that—thanks.

Thank you, Laura. Buffy Williams now.

Thank you, Chair, and thank you for joining us this morning. I worked in special educational needs education for many years, so I know first-hand the challenges that parents, teachers and learners face on a daily basis. It's harrowing to see what parents and teachers go through to make sure that our young people have the education they need and deserve, and it is a huge challenge. You've spoken this morning about discrimination, so what impact do you think discrimination is having on children's mental health and well-being? And what impact do you think this is having on the educational outcomes of our learners? 

Thank you. It's having a huge impact on their mental health and well-being. The evidence that I've seen shows that children with disabilities have poorer mental health—. I would say 'anyway', but it's not 'anyway'. There is a range of evidence, including from my office's Coronavirus and Me survey, which showed that children with disabilities were much more likely to feel sad, were much less likely to say they felt happy and were less likely to say they felt safe. So, there is a huge correlation, unfortunately, between disability and poorer mental health. In my own recent survey, again, the children with disabilities had higher rates of being worried about all sorts of different things, including getting a job when they grow up, about bullying, about having enough money, about their own mental health. My office has produced this evidence that shows that there is a far higher likelihood of these children experiencing poor mental health. I know that the School Health Research Network, which carries out a comprehensive annual survey of secondary school children, has also highlighted similar findings. Their report actually quotes that 18 per cent of secondary school-aged children have a long-term health problem or disability that limits their day-to-day activities.

So, there is a wealth of evidence—statistical evidence, but also anecdotally. And from the conversations that I've heard, some of the comments are really heartbreaking, in terms of these children just talking quite casually about being bullied on their way to school, feeling sad because they can't go to the same school as their brothers and sisters, feeling sad that they're stuck at home, that they can't get to the activities they want to. So, feeling sad is just, I think, something that I heard about a lot, and, in some cases, more severe mental health conditions that they did not feel were adequately responded to. I think there's also a high level of mental health issues existing alongside neurodivergent conditions, and sometimes those two being confused for each other or the relationship between the two not being clearly understood by professionals or even by teachers and people around those children. So, I think it is an area that the committee may like to explore further. 

And you think this is having a negative impact on the educational outcomes of our children. 

Absolutely. Many children I spoke to did tell me that they—. I spoke to a support group for children who are neurodiverse—older children predominantly. A lot of them told me how their experience within schools of not being listened to or supported with their condition had led to them feeling highly anxious and not wanting to go to school. 

Also, just to add to that, the recent publication that Rocio alluded to, 'No Wrong Door', which is a casebook of cases that our investigations and advice service have handled more recently, heard quite a lot from families feeling that their children were just being kept in limbo, waiting for a diagnosis. Again, I'll just quote from a mum saying,

'I’m not doing this to label him. I just want to know how to make him happy. One piece of paper will change it all; people will see him from a different view. He won’t just be the naughty child, they will think this is happening because of something else.'

So, it's about waiting for a diagnosis, and hence the commissioner's calls for us to take a needs-led approach, rather than a diagnosis-led approach to these things. But families are most definitely feeling in limbo waiting for a diagnosis. There are young children—I'm looking at this—from as young as six months having intervention, but having to wait until they're seven to have a piece of paper to confirm their condition. 

I've got some quotes from young people that I could give you in relation to mental health. This was from the support group for young people with neurodiversity. One young person said, 'I wasn't allowed to go home when I was literally having an emotional breakdown. I was sobbing and hyperventilating, but they were, like, "Nope, it's school policy." My mum had to confront them personally before I could go home.'

Then, another one said, 'I was ignored when I reported accounts of bullying, extreme stress and extreme difficulties with work. I was in the middle of a mental health crisis and got no help.' I've got lots more comments that I can—.

Thank you. Thank you, Chair.

Brilliant. Perhaps you could share some of those comments with us, as well, to ensure that we can reflect those young people's views as well.

Yes.

Thank you. Questions now from James Evans.

Diolch, Cadeirydd. Children's commissioner, parents have got to make a lot of informed choices, haven't they, about their children, and also the children themselves have got to make a lot of choices as well, and it's important that they are given the appropriate and adequate information they require. To what extent do you think that happens?

Most of the parents that I have heard from feel that they are left to find out things for themselves and have to do a lot of their own research and don't get many proactive offers of help to find the right information that would help them. I heard many examples of really fantastic voluntary support groups, which are parent-led, peer-led support groups that were playing a really important role in sharing and facilitating that information between parents. But it did seem that there was a lack of easily available information on local authority websites. This is something that my office has highlighted previously, and just the information is not easy to find, particularly with different conditions like neurodiverse children. Again, particular information for that group was very difficult to find. I think it just is something that children themselves—. There is a vacuum of information, unfortunately, that can lead to a lot of misinformation being shared. It's something that should definitely be improved.

Moving on to education, it is very important that people can access the provision that they want to access, and no-one should be discriminated against because they've got a disability. To what extent do you think that children with a disability are being discriminated against, because they're predetermined on what setting they have to go into, because of the accessibility of that setting that they have to go into?

Unfortunately, in reality, from the examples that I've heard about, there are limitations on the choices of provision available to children because of physical or learning disabilities, and, additionally, as well as physical barriers, there's also the problem of professionals making judgments that parents don't always agree with in terms of the ability or the suitability of certain provision to match that child or that family. I know that it can be very challenging for parents who disagree with the professionals' assessment of suitability of a school or provision. I get a lot of casework coming to my office of situations like that, where a parent disagrees with the local authority's assessment of a child's needs or abilities. Parents need a lot of support through that system, which is not always there. Well, there isn't a lot of support for parents in that situation.

The capacity of specialist schools at the moment, their ability, just in terms of their physical space and the numbers available, is just not sufficient at the moment. I'm aware that special schools are currently excluded from the measuring the capacity of schools guidance of 2011. This seems to be an anomaly—that they're not subject to the same requirements as other schools in terms of having to make sure that they have enough space to meet the needs of the learners who are there.

Just to touch on that, we're about to publish a piece of work with the Welsh Language Commissioner on Welsh-medium provision for those with additional learning needs, as well, on some of those barriers, some of the casework that's come into the office about the additional barriers of those with additional learning needs, wanting to pursue their education through the medium of Welsh. We're happy to share that with the committee when it's published, as well. So, it's an additional barrier for some of those children who want to pursue their education in Welsh.

I was going to touch on the Welsh language and how it's important that everybody can access the provision that they need, and the educational provision and support that they need, through the language of their choice. But, one thing that I do just quickly want to touch on, if you'll allow me, Chair, as I know we're short on time, is rural areas. In the urban setting, it's probably a bit easier to access provision, but there are vast swathes of Wales where provision isn't as prevalent as what it is down here. So, I'm very interested to know what work the commissioner's office is doing to make sure that people can have access to the provision closer to home, so that people in rural areas aren't having to travel a long way away from their homes, and perhaps their friends and support networks, to access education.

Thank you. I'm hugely aware of the realities of rural Wales, from spending a lot of my time on those roads. But, for me, it comes back to the absolute crucial role of transport, and that, for me, would be the No. 1 priority. In all of this, the most important and practical way that Government can make a difference to the lives of children and young people with disabilities would be by increasing the availability and accessibility of transport to get to—. Yes, provision is really, really scarce, and there isn't enough of it anywhere, but particularly in rural areas. But, where there is provision, it's crucial that parents and young people are able to get to it.

Just to make a point, in the part of the world that I represent, with my colleague the Chair of the Health and Social Care Committee, between the two of us our constituencies are 165 miles long and there are only two settings in that whole area. It's a massive area. You can improve transport all you like, but the provision just isn't there and there's a massive waiting list to get into the provision, as well. So, I'd be quite interested to know what work you're doing to make sure that, on top of transport, the Government is also investing to make sure there are more places for people to go into, as well.

Well, I would absolutely support that call and would agree that there is a need for more investment to meet the needs of these children. So, that is certainly a focus of mine, and I would echo what you just said.

Thank you.

Thank you, James. And, finally, some questions from Ken Skates. Ken.

Thanks, Chair. One of my questions has actually just been dealt with pretty well, I think. So, I've just got one final question I'd like to ask, and it's regarding ALN reforms. To what extent is the implementation of the ALN reforms having a positive or negative impact on learners?

Thank you. I'm glad you've brought that up because I hadn't mentioned that and I did want to. It is a really important new piece of legislation, and it is an area—. The code does seem to be applied very inconsistently at the moment, so I do have a lot of contacts being made to my office and casework on this issue because of inconsistent practice or variation in how different local authorities and different professionals interpret the code. Another aspect that does create confusion is the age boundaries of the code not aligning to my own remit, for example. So, I often get parents contacting me, with children who are between the ages of 18 and 25, and I have to, unfortunately, let them know that I am not able to support them, although my office still does its best, but it's not strictly within our remit.

The ambition of the code is to support learners with disabilities up to the age of 25. Currently, there does seem to be a huge gap and there doesn't seem to be enough provision or really joined-up thinking around how to support young people with disabilities when they leave, after the age of 18 or 19. The pathways into employment, or the pathways into training or apprenticeships or higher education are not clear at the moment. There are some idiosyncrasies in terms of the rules and the resourcing. For example, I'm aware that to access one—I think it was an FE college—for a young person with a disability, the funding would follow the young person, which meant that the young person wouldn't be able to go to a college and then change their mind. They couldn't then go back to another place of learning as another young person of the same age might be able to. Because the funding would be allocated to that place of learning, they would have to stay there, and that, in one example I heard about, meant that parents and young people didn't feel able to take a risk, maybe, of trying this new place of learning, because they then would lose their opportunity to go back if that didn't work out for them, and I think that is not equitable. That isn't the same for non-disabled young people. So, the ALN code, I think, is still in its early days, but I think more support is needed, and more resources, perhaps, and more clarity is needed in terms of the expectations from Government in terms of how that is implemented to minimise that variation and that confusion.

Okay.

Great, thank you. Thanks, Chair.

Thanks, Ken. Okay, and that's the end of the session this morning. Thank you very much for coming in to give evidence at our first evidence session. I'm sure you'll be following our inquiry closely, and we'd really appreciate the extra evidence that you said you could provide us. So, diolch yn fawr. You will be sent a transcript to check for accuracy in due course, but thank you for joining us.

Diolch.

Members, now we'll be taking a short break to change over witnesses, so we'll just go into private session.

Welcome back, everyone. We're on to our second evidence session and item 3 on our agenda, which is: do disabled children and young people have equal access to education and childcare? I'd like to welcome our witness this morning, who is Ruth Coombs, head of the Equality and Human Rights Commission in Wales. Good morning, Ruth. You're very welcome. Members have a number of questions to put to you this morning in our evidence gathering, and I'll make a start with quite a general question: in relation to disability discrimination, perhaps you could explain your role, and the roles of the UK Government and the Welsh Government, and how they interact.

Thank you. Yes. Disability discrimination in young people is regulated by the Equality Act 2010. The Equality Act covers the UK. Education being a devolved matter means that there are responsibilities on the Welsh Government, as well as on the UK Government, and also, under the public sector equality duty, there are obligations for public bodies that are listed in the Equality Act. Coming up towards 80 public bodies are caught under the Equality Act currently in Wales.

Brilliant. Thank you. Perhaps you can explain the differences in the way the Equality Act 2010 relates to education and childcare provision, and how are the different duties monitored and enforced.

Yes. Well, all public bodies have—. There's a general duty, which is a duty of equality of opportunity, not to discriminate, and foster good relationships, and that duty is standard across the UK. The differences are with the specific duties that are caught under regulation, and the specific duties in Wales are different from the specific duties in England. So, a public body in Wales has got specific duties that are, in a way, stepping stones to help them to meet the general duty, but the specific duties should always be seen as a mechanism and a way to support the meeting of the three elements of the general duty, and the general duty is consistent across the UK.

Thank you very much. That's really helpful. We've got some questions now from Sioned Williams. Sioned.

Diolch. Thank you for your question. I think that the best way to describe it would be 'patchy'. I think that that's the case across Wales. I think it varies not only from different local authorities, but also from school to school, i.e. we know anecdotally of barriers to access to inclusive education. Inclusive education is a right under article 24 of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities, and we know that children and young people are not getting access. We've heard anecdotally of issues in transition from primary to secondary schools where, as part of pre-planning meetings, parents have met with schools, perhaps with the additional learning needs co-ordinators or senior leadership, and pretty much being discouraged from applying, because the school is all about standards, and I think that that's something that is really concerning. There’s also an issue around extra-curricular provision, and also wraparound care and childcare provision, because there is less provision for disabled children and young people than there is for non-disabled children and young people. If you try to find somebody who can be a specialist before or after school—. Quite often, if there is support within the school, that support is around the core hours of the school, and then that finishes, and, if you are looking for that wraparound care, particularly for out-of-school provision before and after school, for working parents, trying to find a childminder or equivalent provision that feels confident that they can meet the needs of a disabled child—it’s quite rare. So, that’s a big issue, and something that would be of interest, I think, to the committee to consider. 

Sioned. 

Thank you. It’s not something that we’ve done extensive research on, but, again, anecdotally, we know of cases where children have started to go through the Welsh-medium education system and it hasn’t worked and they’ve been removed. Either the parents have changed the school or it’s been suggested that their needs can’t be met in that school, and I think that it is an issue. We also have issues, for example, around provision for British Sign Language education in mainstream schools. That’s difficult in English-medium schools, so our sense is that that is compounded for families that wish for their children to be educated through the medium of Welsh, but we don’t have any hard, statistical evidence on that fact. 

Talking with families, and also talking with agencies that work specifically to support the families of disabled children—. We were speaking with a stakeholder about two weeks ago whose role is to support families, and there is a sense that they are treated differently. We know of cases where the parents of a neurodivergent child on transition from primary to secondary school were actually bluntly told, 'Well, actually, we're all about standards, so perhaps this isn't the best school for your child.' That was not that many years ago. The child is now around and about 15, I think.

So, there are clearly differences and issues, and also they're treated differently. It's probably indirect or unintentional discrimination. We know that a lot of schools, for example, are still holding things like parents' evenings online. They're still doing quite a lot of things online. That actually disadvantages disabled children and disabled children's families, particularly the disabled children of disabled people. Holding an event online, for example, makes British Sign Language and lip reading really difficult, particularly lip reading, because you don't always know where the voice is coming from. You know that somebody's talking, but you can't direct it. So, if a child is learning through that medium and uses lip reading to assist, they might not necessarily get the cues that they would get in a room where they know where the sound—they know the direction of travel. So, there are some unintended consequences as well as some structural barriers that need to be considered and need to be scrutinised. 

Sioned. Have we lost Sioned? 

[Inaudible.]

I think you were talking about—. 

Diolch. 

Sioned's back. Sorry, Sioned. You had frozen for a second, so if you'd like to start your question again. 

We don't have any hard evidence on that. I think that that would be something that we could take away and discuss with other stakeholders, and, if we can find some evidence, we could bring that back to the committee, if that would be acceptable.

Absolutely. Thank you very much for that offer. 

Thank you, Sioned. Questions now from Ken Skates. Ken.  

Thanks, Chair. Can I start by asking for your views on the UN committee’s perception that the UK does not have an inclusive education system as a result of the way it interprets and applies the UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities? And why is the UK different to other countries in this regard and should the UK Government change its position, do you believe?

We would say that it is different. It's only one of two signatories that have not fully taken on board article 24. The reservations that have been put on by the UK Government are such that provision can be made in specialist education, as well as in what we call mainstream education, and also there's a restriction that makes them able to place children with additional learning needs and disabled children outside of their catchment area, both of which have been highly criticised by the UN committee, and there are specific recommendations for the UK Government to change that practice and to fully take on board and remove the reservations that they have on article 24. 

Thank you. To what extent is this also the case in Wales? How desirable and realistic do you think it is for Wales to have a fully inclusive education system, as envisaged by the UN convention? 

Well, we know at the moment that Wales doesn't have a fully inclusive education system, and we also know that in recent years the numbers of children with additional learning needs that are in mainstream has gone down and the number of children in specialist provision has increased quite significantly over the last, what—since about 2017, 2018. So, we're kind of not—. Wales isn't really moving in the direction that the UN would recommend, and I think that is a bit of a concern. The focus seems to be on providing specialist provision for certain disabilities and conditions and long-term health conditions, and that's where the focus has been, and that's where children and young people with different needs are encouraged to attend, rather than doing what the UN would say would be the right thing to do, which is for every child to have an inclusive education in mainstream school, properly supported and properly funded. 

So, just to be clear, that's every single child. You don't think there are any instances in which segregated education might be desirable for the learner.

I think that the UN's position seems to be going fully into an inclusive situation. However, I think, pragmatically, there will be potentially situations where the—. If you take a child-centred approach and you look at the needs of the child, there may be some children and young people for whom that would not be as appropriate as another specialist provision. But I think it's about being child centred and taking on board the needs and views of parents, of parents having a voice, and children being supported to have a voice so that they are placed in what's right for them. If what's right for them is a specialist provision, then, of course, that should be taken into account. But it's that element of choice and that element of person centredness that I think that the UN committee is basing its position on, and there will be individual differences.

Thank you. What do you believe are the primary barriers to having an inclusive education system in Wales? Can they be removed in the short term, do you think?

I think there is an opportunity with the implementation of the Additional Learning Needs and Education Tribunal (Wales) Act 2018. However, there are some shortcomings and concerns about that. Part of the barriers are some of our schools are old buildings, so the buildings themselves might not be accessible, and not simply accessible in terms of physically disabled children, but also those with a sensory impairment, because they haven't got soundproof boards, for example, they've not got level areas. So, for children and young people with sensory loss, that could be a challenge, and also for children with neurodivergent conditions. Lots of our schools, particularly secondary schools, are very big, very busy, and that can be a barrier.

Also, lack of training and support for staff. One of the biggest barriers is where money is going. It does cost money to make those adaptions and provisions. In order for the children to receive the support they need, it requires a clear and robust budget and a funding mechanism that is clear, that children do have access to, that families have access to and schools have access to.

There is a big concern around British Sign Language education, for example. The only way that that could be met is really to increase investment in teachers who can use British Sign Language, so it becomes more of a norm in schools. That will take time, because it does take time to learn.

So, do you think—? And you may not be able to answer this, I'm not sure, but as far as you're aware, does the twenty-first century schools programme cater fully and comprehensively for the needs of all learners, particularly disabled learners?

We have heard concerns that that might not be the case, but it's difficult to tell what the evidence will be at the moment because it's early days. It's too early to have any data to see how the changes in the curriculum and the changes in the approach to additional learning needs are coming through. That data won't be able to be captured, really, probably until the next academic year. Perhaps the Welsh Government's data units could start to capture that information to see, but we do know of concerns from parents and from organisations that support parents and children with additional learning needs and disabled children.

Sorry, Ruth, I wasn't clear enough in my question. It regards the actual facilities of schools themselves, the built environment, the classrooms under the twenty-first century schools programme, because it is a huge capital programme that the Welsh Government is investing in. Are those new twenty-first century schools fully and comprehensively designed and delivered with every single learner in mind, or do you think there are elements of those brand-new school buildings that are going up across Wales that fail to meet the needs of some learners, particularly disabled learners?

I think that's probably not a question that I could fully answer. My sense is that if they're not designed in co-production with disabled children and disabled children’s families, then it is likely that some things will be missed.

Thank you. Thanks, Chair.

Thank you, Ken. Questions now from James Evans.

Diolch, Cadeirydd. You sort of mentioned this earlier following an earlier question from my colleague Ken Skates, and it’s around the amount of children with additional learning needs now going into special schools, and I was just wondering your views on why you think there’s an increase in children with ALN going into special schools and not staying in mainstream education.

I think that some of the evidence that we’ve got is that children aren’t getting into mainstream schools. So, it’s not that they’re kind of moving from mainstream into special; they’re being more—that is the pathway, and I think that that’s something that needs a bit of scrutiny. It’s not clear, particularly, what the reasons are on that, so that might be something that the committee might want to consider scrutiny on. It might be something—I don’t know whether there’s a role for Estyn in that type of scrutiny.

If I go into that a bit further: we know there are 9,000 children across Wales at the minute waiting for an autism or attention deficit hyperactivity disorder assessment.

Yes.

Do you think parents are saying, 'Well, we’ll have to go to special schools, because we don’t think that we’ll get the assessment', or they won’t get the help or support they need if they actually stay in mainstream education? Do you think that could be a reason, parental choice because of the waiting times?

I’ve not had any sense of that being the case. I think in terms of autistic children, children with a range of neurodiversities, there is an issue with waiting for assessments. Most of the children and young people that we know that are waiting for assessments are in mainstream schools, and their needs are not necessarily being met, because until you’ve had the assessment, then you’re not eligible for the support that the assessment might bring. But I’ve not heard of any evidence of that steering those children into specialist provision. Again, if we hear of any information, we would be happy to share that with the committee.

Because what we are seeing—and you said it yourself—that attendance rates in mainstream schools for learners with ALN are low. They are lower than those for other pupils, and what I’d like to know is: what policies do you think the Welsh Government could come up with and implement to actually help keep those children with ALN in the classroom, so they’re actually receiving the education that they need to take them through life, and to actually make sure that we’re seeing them in the classroom? I think that’s something that’s very important to all of us here.

Yes, it’s a very, very good question. I think, obviously, every child is different, every family is different, but having more awareness of neurodivergence amongst school leaders and educators and the wider school community would really be helpful. It’s not helpful for somebody who is neurodiverse to be given sanctions like time out of the classroom. We hear of those children being removed, being kept in at playtimes in order to catch up, and so they’re not experiencing that full school-day life. And unless you know how to spot the signs, and if a child hasn’t got an assessment, it’s very difficult for people who are not trained, who don’t know how to differentiate what is the motivation and what are the triggers for the behaviour. If the behaviour is seen as anti-social behaviour, then that’s more likely to lead to school exclusions, either informal exclusions during the day or more formal exclusions. It’s also likely to lead to children and young people not wanting to go to school, and becoming a bit more school refusers. I know of young people who find school difficult, but if the curriculum can be modified and modified in a way that is perhaps not even formal, like a formal disapplication from modern foreign languages, for example, but actually just the way that the child learns, doing some modifications in that can help keep children in mainstream school. But if the people that are providing the education and the support workers that are providing the support don't have the training and they haven't got the assessment, it's really difficult for that to happen, and that can lead to young people who are disabled, particularly neurodivergent children, having more absences than their peers.

I've got a really, really quick question, if that's okay. You said the money and the support follow the assessment, so do you think there should be a different look at how we allocate funding, and actually we let parents and education professionals have a bit more flexibility to access funding, so they don't have to wait for those assessments to actually put something in place to help that child? There needs to be a different way of how we look at that funding and how it's allocated to schools, because if we carry on the way we are, with the waiting lists as they are, there's going to be an awful lot of young people out there really struggling in schools for a long time.

Again, it's a really interesting question. It probably falls outside the remit of the commission. But I do think it's something that other organisations might be interested in having a conversation around. We know that schools are really struggling in terms of money, and we know that support workers—. That's an area that, quite often, when there are cuts, is an area that is cut more. It's where, perhaps, schools sometimes first look, purely and simply for budgetary reasons. We do want to see disabled children being well supported and the money flowing in order for that to happen, so that schools are empowered to support disabled learners.

And also, having disabled learners in a mainstream environment doesn't just, or simply—I don't mean the word 'just'; I mean 'simply'—be a benefit for that disabled learner or those disabled learners. It benefits the whole community, the whole school community, and if you go to fully resourced schools where children are fully integrated, the benefits for all the pupils, both the children and their families, is huge. It is something that is an aspiration of the UN, and we would like to see that aspiration being pushed through in Wales and Wales becoming a beacon for it in the UK.

Thank you. I'll just bring Buffy Williams in.

Really quickly. Thank you for coming this morning. We've heard this morning and previously that some children are not being statemented or put into the correct provision, then, until seven or eight years of age. In my constituency, children start school at the age of three, so that's around four years of being placed in a learning environment that is not suitable for that child. That has a negative impact on the whole class. I know this because I've worked in education for many years before coming here, and I've seen what that does to the member of staff in that class, and the rest of the children, who don't understand at such a young age what is going on, even though we explain as best we can. Also, that's four years of what I think is the most important part of any child's school life. This is the foundation that sets them up, then, for the rest of their school life. So, if they have a poor start at the very beginning, that's going to have a knock-on effect through the whole child's learning life, as far as I'm concerned.

Just going back to what James said just now, do you think—? You may not have an opinion on this, one way or the other, but do you think that more power, then, or the final decision making, should lie with the headteacher and the member of staff within the class of the child who is fighting to be statemented? Do you think the final decision should lie with them as to where the child is best placed? Because I find it really difficult that a child goes to be statemented, has an hour, sometimes less than that, with a professional, who then deems that child fit or not fit to attend a school environment, a special school—that a class teacher and a headteacher and every other professional who's worked with that child knows where that child should be, but it's given to an outside body to come in and decide where that child is best placed. Do you think it should be more with the school that is representing that child than an outside body?

That's a really good question, and it falls outside the remit of the commission. It falls outside the commission's remit, but, actually, we adhere to the Paris principles, we are a national human rights institution, and we would recommend the implementation of the recommendations of the UNCRPD, article 24, and also the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, which places families, and the right to education, and the right to an inclusive education, at the centre of decision making.

Thank you.

Thank you, Buffy. Questions from Laura Jones. 

Thank you. Can I ask you just a few questions in relation to COVID-19, if possible? In your written evidence, you state that it's not clear whether additional funding to support ALN learners, following the pandemic, would be sufficient to reduce the effects of the pandemic on disabled children. What are your main concerns about the effects of the pandemic on disabled learners and how these are being addressed?

We do know that, again, through anecdotal evidence, because the statistics are not clear, although there was a right for children and young people who were termed 'vulnerable'—and that would include disabled children and children with additional learning needs—to be eligible for a school place during the pandemic when schools were shut, alongside the children of key workers, those places were not often taken up, and there was a lack of local information. So, disabled children lost out in terms of the provision that they were entitled to during that time. Although the intentions were good, it didn't follow through to families.

We also know that disabled children lost more school time during the pandemic when schools were open. If your child was classed as vulnerable, with particular conditions, then you would've been shielded, and, for children who were shielding, they didn't have the same access to education as others. We also know that parents and families, carers, guardians, were concerned, at times, about sending their children back to school, because of the increased risk and the perceived increased risk to them of COVID. So, they lost more school time then. And we also know, for some of the reasons that I've explained earlier, that the move to online disadvantaged some disabled learners.

We also know that disabled learners are more likely to be in socioeconomically disadvantaged families, who, again, were more disadvantaged in terms of that digital process in terms of school. So, there was kind of like a multiplier effect there. So, they do need to have some sort of specialist input, and we were just a bit concerned that that long term—. It needs to be a bit more long term for some disabled learners in order for them to catch up. So, we are concerned that it's—. Again, it's laudable that it's being done, but it does need a bit of scrutiny—does it need to be more, does it need to be for longer—so that they can have that catch-up that they need, bearing in mind that some disabled learners would not be able to do that through a longer day, because they need more breaks, et cetera. So it is a concern, but again, the fact that something was put into place is positive. 

Thank you. You touched on my follow-up question there. They obviously lost a lot more time, and there does need to be that degree of catch up. You've also touched on the wraparound care around the school day, and the fact that that's lacking. Do you think there's an opportunity there to provide maybe face-to-face tutoring in that way, to help them catch up?

I think if that provision was available, then I think there would be take up for that kind of provision. It would obviously need to be done in a sensitive manner. Parents of disabled children and disabled children and young people themselves are concerned that they've lost education, so I think they would perceive that as a positive. And again, I think that would help to address some of the UN committee's concerns about attainment and progress of disabled children. 

Thank you. In your written evidence you say it's unclear how the Welsh Government's evaluation of the COVID recovery plan will affect children's rights and protected characteristics. What would you recommend the Government do in this instance?

I think it's important that they've got good data capture, disaggregated data, and that they look and they act on what the trends in the data are showing so that there isn't a one-size-fits-all approach. And it needs to be granular—so, not in the context of black, Asian and minority ethnic students, disabled, non-disabled students, white learners, but within that, within those categories, getting down into more granularity. So, what are the particular needs and concerns and challenges for sensory impaired children? And again, make it more granular. What about children with a visual impairment or sight loss? What are the impacts on children who are hard of hearing, deaf or deafened? And the way that they actually approach the curriculum. So I think it does need to be quite nuanced in order for it to really benefit disabled children. 

I 100 per cent agree. Do you have concerns that some children, for example those with disabilities, may be home educated for reasons that are not positive choice, but rather because of inaccessibility of the general educational experience being offered? We've already talked about the lack of transport, not being able to navigate around a school safely, not getting their individual needs met, or the funding for it, et cetera. Thank you. 

Thank you. Again, the hard data isn't there, and we think that there may be a role for Estyn in trying to scrutinise this area. We know that Estyn have recently written reports on elective education, which have been very helpful. Anecdotally, we know of children, including neurodiverse children, that are educated at home simply because parents feel that the school environment as it is at the moment doesn't understand their child, and their child doesn't understand or work well in that environment. Also, we've heard of concerns, particularly during and post pandemic, about children who've got particular additional learning needs, perhaps have got particular health conditions that make them more vulnerable, as the Welsh Government definition would be, being concerned about being in a school environment. COVID hasn't gone away yet. We are learning to live with it, but I think that that's potentially another motivating factor for parents and families—that fear of what might happen if their child caught COVID. 

Thank you. Thanks, Chair. 

Thank you. And finally, questions from Buffy Williams. 

Thanks, Chair. To what extent do you believe that schools meet their equality duties in the provision of education, admissions and access to facilities?

We recently conducted some research on accessibility and on the use of restraint in schools. What we're concerned about is, at the moment, only about 12 per cent—just over 12 per cent—of schools that we did some research around have got up-to-date accessibility plans, which means that most of them haven't. That's a big concern, because the school population needs change, and the curriculum is changing, the way teaching is done is changing, so to have those plans so far out of date would be a concern. We would want to see those plans updated.

In order to support schools around the public sector equality duty, we have recently issued some guidance—it was issued in March—to support schools, because we could see that they needed some support. Also, we think that the local authorities, as public bodies, have got a responsibility for the schools to do that, so we do think that that's something that could be scrutinised a bit more closely.

We also know that under the Equality Act 2010, there is a section—Schedule 10—that gives Welsh Ministers powers to issue directions to local authorities and schools, if they feel that they're not meeting their obligations. Also, there's a role for the education tribunals in that as well. But what we don't know is whether or not Welsh Ministers are exercising the powers that they have, so that might be something that the committee might want to look at, because we don't have any information on that at this time.

Thank you for that—definitely. To what extent do you believe that schools and local authorities meet their obligations in preparing—? Sorry, I've just asked you that. Do schools and local authorities adequately and appropriately undertake meaningful consultations with families and disabled learners? 

We haven't got any comprehensive evidence on that. Again, the school inspection process includes that. We would want to see schools and local authorities engaging with disabled children and disabled children's families as part of their obligations under the specific duties of the public sector equality duty. There's a specific duty to engage when you're making strategic decisions, and we would want to see disabled children and disabled children's families being a part of that engagement. That engagement should lead them to making decisions and, also, lead them when they're conducting their equality impact assessments so that they can see what the impact on the different protected characteristics would be of a decision, and how they then mitigate it. If they're not engaging with children and young people who are disabled, and their families, they don't know what the impacts might be, so they don't know what the mitigations might be. 

We do have concerns around the quality of equality impact assessments. Some of the assessments at Welsh Government level need to be improved, and that would help to cascade down. This needs to be all couched in the context that we know that schools have been through a really tough time and have done the best that they can under incredibly difficult circumstances, but now, I think, is a good time, with the changes in the curriculum and with new legislation coming through, to refresh those plans as part of that review of how they're going to move things on, going forward.

Thank you. I know you've just touched on this, but do you believe schools and local authorities meet their obligations in preparing, implementing and updating the accessibility strategies and plans? What more can the Welsh Government do to support schools and local authorities in meeting these duties?

We know that they're out of date at the moment. Welsh Government issued some guidance in 2018; maybe that needs to be revisited, maybe a bit of scrutiny on the impact of the guidance. And I think schools need to be supported by their local authorities and, in turn, local authorities supported by Welsh Government in order to know what their obligations are. And to also make it so that they understand why it's important, that it's not a piece of paper that you have to fill in and then you file, but actually it helps you to make better decisions. All of this is to help you make better decisions and to look to see where you can best use your scarce resources, because we know resources are scarce. So, if they're supported to understand that, actually, this will help them—it's not something punitive; it's something that can help their leadership decisions and help them to make the lives of their staff and all their pupils and learners and the family community better—I think that would be really helpful.

Okay. And do you believe that the schools and the local authorities are aware of and comply with their public sector equality duty? And what more do you think Welsh Government can do to support schools and local authorities to ensure compliance?

I think that part of the reason why we've recently issued guidance to schools is because we don't think that that awareness is—. I have to say that that's not the case for the whole of Wales; not all schools, not all local authorities. There are some networks in schools that are very aware and, before the pandemic, I had been invited to talk to networks of school leaders about the public sector equality duty. So, it is patchy. But, at the end of the day, schools have got an awful lot to do and so the more bureaucratic side of things are perhaps the things that feel distant, are the things that perhaps don't get picked up quite so quickly. So, I think if Welsh Government could assist in them seeing and understanding the rationale and why it's a good idea and why it makes a difference, I think that would be really helpful. And I think that Estyn, again, could have a role in that, in terms of the support and encouragement side of school inspection and regulation.

Thank you. Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, Buffy. That's the end of this evidence session. Thank you very much for coming along to give evidence to us this morning. You will receive a transcript in due course to check for accuracy, and I'm sure you'll follow our inquiry closely over the next few weeks and months. We really appreciate the work that you can send us, as well, for extra information, and your offer of that. So, diolch yn fawr.

Thank you very much for the opportunity.

Brilliant. Thank you.

Bye-bye.

So, we'll now move on to the next item on our agenda, which is papers to note. Surprisingly, we have only two papers to note this week. The full details of the papers are set out on the agenda and in the paper pack. Are Members content to note those papers together? Yes, I can see Members are.

So, we'll now move on to item 5, which is the motion to move into private session. So, I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of this meeting. Is everyone content? I see that everyone is content, so we will now proceed to meet in private.