Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru

Can I welcome everybody to today's hybrid meeting of the Senedd Petitions Committee? As a reminder, this meeting is being broadcast live on Senedd.tv and the Record of Proceedings will be published as usual. Aside from the procedural adaptations for conducting proceedings in a hybrid format, all other Standing Order requirements remain in place.

Item 1 on today's agenda is apologies, substitutions and declarations of interest. We have received apologies from Joel James, and we are glad to welcome Altaf Hussain back as his substitution today. There are no other apologies that have been brought to the committee. I remind committee members they should either note declarations of interest now or at the relevant point during today's business. 

Item 2 on today's agenda is new petitions. For items 2.1 and 2.3, as Chair of the committee, I'm going to use my discretion to bring both of these items together, as they relate to the same topic. Item 2.1 is P-06-1318, 'Exempt A and B roads in Wales from the proposed blanket 20mph speed limit', and item 2.3 is P-06-1322, 'Reallocate the £30m being used for 20mph limits, to the NHS which is in crisis, especially BCUHB!' Item 2.1 was submitted by John Martin Williams and item 2.3 was submitted by Darren Jones. 

Given the fact this has been debated a number of times in the Senedd, both on the floor of the Senedd and under other matters, as a Petitions Committee we perhaps can't further this work, and this now is a matter again for the floor of the Senedd through individual Members of the Senedd who represent those petitioners. On that basis, I'm going to thank the petitioners for using the process and suggest we close these two petitions this afternoon. Are Members content? I can see all Members are content to close those petitions as suggested. 

Item 2.2 on today's agenda is P06-1319, 'Provide a pedestrian crossing on A4042 at Goytre Arms crossroads and reduce the speed limit to 20mph':

'Make it safe for residents of Penperlleni to cross the A4042 at the Goytre Arms crossroads by providing a pedestrian crossing and extending the existing 20mph speed limit in the village to include this section of the A4042.'

This was submitted by Janet Butler, with a total of 656 signatures. At this point, I'll bring committee members in to discuss any actions they may wish to take. Luke Fletcher.

Diolch, Gadeirydd. Could I suggest that we keep this petition open for the time being? There seems to be work under way, and whilst usually these sorts of petitions would be more a matter for the local authority, this is to do with the trunk road network. I notice as well the petitioner has submitted a number of questions; could I also suggest that we forward them on to the Minister as well?

Thanks. Diolch yn fawr, Luke, for those suggestions. Are there any comments from Members, or are Members in agreement with Luke Fletcher's suggestion? They are. Okay. We will take that forward and move on. 

The next petition is item 2.4, P-06-1326, 'The Senedd should scrutinise the prepayment meter scandal in Wales':

'We call on the Senedd to undertake an inquiry into the prepayment meter scandal. Over the last two months evidence has emerged that thousands of people have been switched to prepay meters without the required checks as to whether they are vulnerable. We at Climate Cymru and other campaigners have been exposing this scandal.'

There is additional information available on this petition for members of the committee and members of the public, available online. This was submitted by a former Member of the Senedd herself, Bethan Sayed, with a total of 294 signatures. I will bring Buffy Williams in on this petition to discuss any actions we may wish to take. 

Thank you, Chair. I'd also like to thank the petitioner. I can see that the Economy, Trade and Rural Affairs Committee has done a large amount of work around this issue and that there are already plans in place to upgrade the sewage system in Brecon, Llanfoist and Usk. I'm not really sure what more we as a committee can do on this petition, so I suggest we close this petition and thank the petitioner again.

You're ahead one item of business there.

Am I? I'm really sorry, Chair.

That's okay, Buffy. We're discussing item 2.4, P-06-1326, 'The Senedd should scrutinise the prepayment meter scandal in Wales'.

I'm sorry, I am ahead.

No problem, Buffy.

I am very sorry.

Do you have any comments on that petition?

One second, so I can get all my papers the right way around. Yes, I've got it here. Sorry. I'm on the right petition now. I know you've done an awful lot of work on this petition, Chair, and I'm used now to hearing you stand in the Chamber and really drive this forward. I think it's a really important petition, and I know that you are driving forward an inquiry on these prepayment meters. So, I think if we leave this petition open and see what comes from the inquiry that our committee is looking to hold, and then go from there.

Diolch yn fawr, Buffy. Luke Fletcher.

Diolch, Gadeirydd. I think we should do a short inquiry into this. I think my inbox, like a lot of other Members' inboxes, is starting to get filled now, and especially with the cost-of-living crisis, it's a particular matter that I think a lot of our constituents are keen for us to get to grips with. So, I would support this committee doing a short inquiry into prepayment meters.

Thank you, Luke. As Chair and someone who's been campaigning quite heavily on this, it would be, I think, inappropriate for me to push for an inquiry on this, given the fact I would welcome one, so I will remove my comments from today's decision. There has been a suggestion from Buffy and Luke Fletcher to undertake an inquiry, a short piece of work, into this scandal. I look to Altaf Hussain and Rhys ab Owen for agreement on that, or disagreement or further comment. I can see thumbs up and nodding, so I take that as Members' agreement to do this. We will, given that agreement, discuss a way forward and what that might look like in Wales. I know the Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy Committee in Westminster are conducting a similar inquiry in their sessions tomorrow.

Item 3 on today's agenda is updates to previous petitions, starting with item 3.1, P-06-1312, 'To help improve water quality in the River Usk by upgrading sewage systems in the Usk valley'. This was submitted by Michael George Cowburn, with 1,612 signatures. I will look to Members to discuss this petition and any actions they may wish to take. I will go to Buffy Williams in the Rhondda.

And now this is the right petition. I'd like to thank the petitioner for submitting this petition. It's a really important issue. We have issues in my constituency that are the same. I know ETRA have done a large piece of work around this, and there are plans to upgrade the sewage system in Brecon, Llanfoist and Usk. But again, I'm not quite sure what this committee can do, so I'd suggest that we close this petition and thank the petitioner again.

Diolch, Buffy. Luke Fletcher.

Diolch, Gadeirydd. I'm a member of ETRA, of course, and we have done a substantial amount of work on this particular issue. I would be with Buffy. I think, just in terms of the nature of this petition, it's more for ETRA to do as a specific subject committee. But could I suggest that we, at least, forward the petition to the committee clerks, and then close?

Thank you. That's a valid point, I think, from Luke. Are Members in agreement with Buffy and Luke's suggestions? They are. Okay. We will make sure both the Chair and the clerking team are aware of the petition and the work that we've done to date on that petition.

Item 3.2, P-06-1253, 'Ban greyhound racing in Wales'. This was submitted by Hope Rescue with 35,101 signatures in total, with 18,707 of those coming from Wales. This, obviously, was a piece of work we've done an inquiry on, and we debated the committee report in the Senedd on Wednesday last week. Before I move to Members' contributions this afternoon, I should state that there has been a counterpetition, which now has around 6,000 signatures in total and is still collecting signatures at the moment. At the appropriate time that that comes to committee, committee members will consider that petition. But I think it was important to recognise that that petition is currently collecting signatures. At this point, I will move to Members' contributions this afternoon. Luke Fletcher.

Diolch, Gadeirydd. Just as I begin to make my comments, I'd just like to thank committee members for the work they've been doing on this, but as well to thank both the organisations behind the petition and those who are in favour of racing for giving evidence in the session. I think we struck the chord right in terms of gathering evidence from both sides of the debate. Given that we've had a promise for a consultation from the Minister around greyhound racing, as well as the petition you mentioned earlier, could I suggest that we keep this petition open for the time being, until we have further information on that consultation, or at least a better idea of where the Government is going on this?

Diolch, Luke. Are there any further comments from Members? Buffy Williams.

I'd just like to second everything that Luke has said here. I actually spoke to the League Against Cruel Sports over the weekend. They've also been campaigning on this issue for quite some time, which I actually didn't realise. I think that this is something that we've got to persevere with. Personally, I would just like to continue until we have an outright ban. But that is something personally for me. But I agree with everything that Luke has said.

Thank you for that, Buffy. Are there any comments from Altaf or Rhys? Altaf. 

I myself would be for a total ban. I would take the point that Luke has made, and I would suggest that we continue with his suggestion.

Thank you, Altaf, for that. At the stage of debate in the Petitions Committee, we usually consider that the last point of its journey as a petition, but I agree. I think if Members have consensus, given this is a topic that has secured significant debate—not only in the Senedd, but externally as well with the public—and given the fact there is a consultation, which I might encourage those campaigners from both sides of the argument to engage fully with when that is live, and, of course, the counterpetition which has quite quickly, I should say, got to around 6,000 signatures—. I haven't got the figure right in front of me now, but it's around that figure, and still building. I think it is appropriate that we can keep this open and review it, perhaps later on this year, when either the counterpetition comes to committee or the consultation has been launched and closed. I should say I do echo the comments of Luke Fletcher and Buffy as well, and thank those people who helped with the inquiry. It was a useful discussion.

Item 3.3, P-06-1323, 'We request that the Welsh Government purchase St David’s Hall as a national resource for Wales'. This was submitted by Ben Herrington, with 3,575 signatures. I'll bring Members in to discuss this position and any actions they may wish to take. Rhys ab Owen.

Diolch yn fawr, Gadeirydd. I think we've discussed the Welsh Government's response on at least two occasions—their unsurprising response that they weren't going to purchase St David's Hall, that the funding was not available, and, in any event, there would need to be a substantial five-year plan for them to be able to consider that. I'm not sure whether it would have been the answer for Welsh Government to buy it in any event, but I think that's the only way it could have come before this committee.

I think we've postponed making a decision on two previous occasions to await the public consultation from Cardiff Council. I understand that the public consultation had responses from over 1,220 individuals, with the majority—I think, 58 per cent—supporting the council's proposals of having a long-term lease arrangement to manage St David's Hall with Live Nation. Now, obviously, I have major concerns about that, about such an important resource in our capital city being long leased in that way to Live Nation, especially considering the service that St David's Hall has provided to youth music and classical music.

Chair, I'm looking to you and the clerking team now, as I'm unsure what more this committee can do, and whether the only option we have at the moment is to thank the petitioner for bringing forward this very important issue to our committee, but our committee's hands are tied at the moment, and that we have no choice but to close this petition. Diolch.

Diolch yn fawr, Rhys. Any further comments before I respond? No. Okay. I think you're right, Rhys, that this particular petition has probably reached the end of its journey, but, again, the feeling, obviously, of the public, with this petition itself and a similar petition on change.org, with over 21,000 signatures, clearly shows the strength of feeling. But, given the fact the public consultation from the council has ended that journey, and given the clear steer from the Welsh Government, I think we will have to agree to close this petition and thank the petitioner for using our platform as well. And, of course, I would encourage anyone looking to start a petition in Wales to consider using our platform as well. Any other further comments from Members, or just agreement? Okay.

Item 3.4, P-06-1247, 'We call on the Welsh Government to lead the way by supporting trials of a four-day week in Wales'. This was submitted by Mark Hooper, with 1,619 signatures. I will declare an interest at this point; I know other Members will know Mark as well. I know Mark Hooper, the petitioner, myself. We did undertake an inquiry into this particular petition. There were differing views on the committee; I know the Conservative Member, Joel James, who's not here today, had a strong feeling of opposition towards this particular petition. But we did submit our report to the Welsh Government. The Welsh Government have responded to our recommendations. The Deputy Minister for Social Partnership has sent her response back, and in a letter to the committee she has stressed the importance of social partnership and the workforce partnership council, and it is where the Welsh Government will take the proposal to the workforce partnership council at its meeting on 29 March, to consider setting up a working group on a four-day week. And I think it was referenced in that letter by the Deputy Minister that no further decision from the Welsh Government will be taken until that workforce partnership council has either agreed to set up a working group, and, if so, conducted its work there.

Given that fact, and given the fact there were differing opinions, not only in this committee, but I remember being one of the early listeners at six o'clock to a BBC Radio Wales phone-in session that had different opinions on this particular petition and the work we've done, can I suggest that perhaps we seek to debate our report in Senedd time and that we'll write to the Business Committee to suggest that? Are Members content with that? They are. Luke Fletcher wanted to come in.

Diolch, Gadeirydd. Just on the same level as you, I know Mark, so just to declare my interest on that side.

But I do think that this is something we should now take to the floor of the Senedd and debate. I completely agree with your proposal, and I just want to take the opportunity to do a shameless plug as well. Next Tuesday, so 21 March, we'll be holding a panel session with Autonomy and 4 Day Week Global in the Senedd, so just an open invitation to those who might be interested who are watching to come along and engage with the panel.

Diolch yn fawr, Luke, for that. I'll certainly take an avid interest in that panel discussion, and I'm sure others will as well. Any comments from other Members? No. Okay. On that note, we'll seek to write to Business Committee and of course consider the petition again once we've had a response from them.

Item 4 on today's agenda: we now do conclude our public business of today. Can I propose, in accordance with Standing Order 17.42(ix), that we resolve to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting, where we will discuss our future work programme, based on two inquiries that this committee is interested in? Are Members content? I can see that they are. Okay, thank you for that. Before I close, just to say that we will meet again on 27 March, and we will now go into private to discuss those items. Diolch yn fawr. Meeting closed.