Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru

Good afternoon and welcome to this afternoon's Plenary meeting. The first item this afternoon is questions to the Minister for Climate Change, and the first question is from James Evans.

Local accountability is intrinsic to governance of our national parks. Two thirds of members are selected by local authorities, guaranteeing accountability back to local people and communities. We are improving accountability and governance, including a support package for Brecon Beacons National Park and a new strategic, pan-Wales post focused on diversity and governance.

Diolch, Minister. In our national parks, it is vital that local people feel that they are part of the decision-making process, and that the national parks actually stand up for them and that they have representation from that area. The Welsh Government appoints a number of people to national parks, but, unfortunately, some of those people aren't even from Wales. So, what I would like to see is a system where local people can feed into that appointments process to make sure that we have local people representing our national parks to make sure that our businesses and our communities feel that they are respected and listened to by our national parks in Wales. Diolch, Llywydd.

Yes, so, national parks absolutely do need to respond to local people and their concerns and they must, of course, be representative of the communities they serve, but national parks also serve all of the people of Wales—they are, obviously, our 'national' parks, and it's very important that the national park authorities respond to both local and national needs. And so, we must make sure that their governance and their accountability reflect the need to reflect that engaged community inside the national park and on the edges of the national park, but also that they're there for the future of all of the people of Wales.

So, we work very closely with the national parks to engage widely when we develop the management plans and the other priorities. We need to have specific expertise on the national parks, as well as the local councillors who contribute so much. So, I'm very keen to make sure that we have a range of expert voices as well from the Welsh Government appointments. So, I'm not entirely certain that I agree with you that they should be people who live in Wales, although, obviously, where we have the expertise in Wales, we would certainly seek to do that. What we're much more keen on is making sure that the national park has a range of expertise available to it, both on its board, if you like—because that's what the council itself actually is—and then in the range of experts that we engage with in order to get the best possible outcome for both the people in the community itself, but very importantly for all of the people of Wales and, actually, the UK and globally, because the national parks are, of course, part of our protected landscape.

I also believe that the views of local people are important. I more importantly believe that it is important to protect our national parks, areas of outstanding natural beauty and green belt—we all benefit from them. Does the Minister agree with me that it is important to protect these areas for future generations, as opposed to the Conservative leader in the Senedd, who said that development is okay, as long as the infrastructure is put in place, such as doctors' surgeries, schools and transport infrastructure?

Well, I wholeheartedly agree with you, Mike. I really would like to stress that we have no intention of following the UK Government in considering opening up development near national parks in our areas of outstanding natural beauty or our sites of special scientific interest. 'Future Wales' and 'Planning Policy Wales' provide a comprehensive framework of protection for our national parks and AONBs for inappropriate development, and I, for one, am very determined that it stays that way.

Thank you. 'Llwybr Newydd', the Wales transport strategy, sets out our plans for an accessible, sustainable and efficient transport system not just in South Wales East, but across the nation.

Thank you for that response.

A frequent complaint during street surgeries is the state of the bus network. This service is a lifeline for so many people and is particularly the case in Blaenau Gwent, where car ownership is low and there is a higher proportion of older people than in many other constituencies. Unfortunately, if you wanted to travel by bus between Aberbeeg and Cwm—a 10-minute journey by car—it would take one hour and 44 minutes, as it goes the long way around. Can you give an indication of the roll-out of a new bus timetable and the budget it will have? Can you also consult with bus travellers in the communities where routes are operating so that the service is designed with them in mind?

Well, I'm passionate about the role the bus plays in the sustainable transport system. It's been a neglected part of the debate for far too long. We are dealing with the legacy of privatisation, which makes taking a strategic approach very difficult, because private companies can essentially run the services they wish, and we know, after the years of austerity, councils don't have the funds to provide services for social need. So, it needs a wholesale reform. We're consulting on our bus White Paper. We've had a lot of positive responses and we'll be publishing a summary of them shortly, and then we're planning to bring legislation to the Senedd next year, to set out a franchising system. And the purpose of that is to allow us to set out, with Transport for Wales and local authorities, what a network of routes looks like, to enable bus to be a viable option for most people. We know that about half of people never get on the bus, and, if we're going to hit our climate change targets, that has to change. So, we need them to be reliable, we need them to be frequent, we need them to be affordable. To do that requires a lot of plumbing to the system, and we are setting out on that journey. Unfortunately, it is not a quick journey, but we are, I think, heading in the right direction.

Deputy Minister, in June last year I asked the First Minister about the possibility of him introducing an all-Wales travel card, to allow people from all socioeconomic backgrounds and age groups to access public transport. The introduction of such a card would ensure more seamless travel for residents, commuters and students, as well as encouraging tourism, thereby driving improvements in public transport, by increasing passenger numbers and demand. In response, the First Minister said there was a great deal worth exploring in the idea, and he gave a commitment to exploring the possibility of a card, to improve transport connectivity all across Wales. However, Deputy Minister, when I tabled a written question asking for an update on plans, you replied on 11 October 2022, referring to various existing concessionary fare schemes and said you were exploring options for integrated ticketing with Transport for Wales. It sounds to me, Deputy Minister, that you are pouring cold water on the idea of an all-Wales travel card. So, please could you confirm what is your position on this, and do you in fact agree with the First Minister that this is a proposal worth exploring?

Well, it's very much part of our thinking, but, as I've just explained, because we have a fragmented and privatised system, it is not as simple as it sounds, because different operators have different systems, we have no ability to compel them, because they are commercial companies. And the whole point of going to a franchise system across Wales, with standards for workers and for passengers, is to allow a greater commonality of services. And that includes an interchangeable bus, train and active travel ticket, which Transport for Wales are working on. But until we get that plumbing right, we're not able to do it. And I'm afraid this is a legacy of privatisation that we are living with today, and one we are working hard to overcome.

I know we want to look forward not back, but it's worth noting that the reason we've got still a bus service at all is because of the bus emergency scheme, and its successor scheme, that was initiated during the coronavirus crisis. And that was Welsh Government stepping in to help a private service. Now, I think that this private service owes us something back, and I don't think we're getting that. What are we seeing in the Aber valley, for example? I've had many constituents complain to me about cancellation of services. And what we really need to see is some kind of public control over this. Now, I've noticed that the White Paper on bus governance reform that was out for consultation actually goes further than the bus Bill proposals, so it would be interesting to hear the responses to the consultation. Can you give us an indication when you will publish those? I know you've said that you're doing it imminently, but can you give us a clear idea of when you will publish those bus consultation responses, and when will we hear more about the progress of the White Paper?

Thank you. The intention is do that this month. There's an awful lot going on around the bus reform agenda. We're looking at the issue of fares, we're looking at the issue of programming—as I say, not just putting in place the legislative framework for allowing franchising, but working with TfW and local authorities on where those routes should go. So, TfW have done some detailed work in north Wales as a first step for that mapping of where an idealised bus route should exist, which then allows us to build that into the franchise, when we pass it and when we let it.

You're right that we have put a significant amount of money into the bus industry—it's something like £150 million of emergency funding. As you say, without that, there would be no bus industry in most of Wales. This June, we announced a further £48 million package of support, and it does come with conditions—it is a something-for-something deal. And it's been actually a very productive working relationship we've had with the industry, which I think prepares us for franchising. Because, for the first time, I think we've had the barriers come down, where the conversation used to be, sometimes, adversarial, with them asserting their rights as commercial operators. It's now far more of a partnership, and we have access to the real-time data of the routes they're running and the fare box that they're generating, and that allows us then to design a new system far better.

To be fair to the bus industry, they are facing significant pressures, from a workforce that has been shrinking, with older bus drivers not returning after the pandemic, the difficulty of recruiting, as well as rising costs because of inflation. So, there are a number of pressures on the industry. That's why we think putting them on a firmer footing, under an organised and transparent franchising system, is the way to make modal shift a reality.

Questions now from party spokespeople. First, the Conservative spokesperson, Janet Finch-Saunders.

Thank you. Diolch, Llywydd. Minister, last Friday I joined an urgent meeting with a group of registered social landlords to discuss the future of social housing in Wales. Amongst their fears and their worries and concerns, there was this feeling that Welsh Government, in their opinion, has failed to create a strong foundation to drive social housing new builds. Only around 9,000 housing association and local authority homes were built between 2010 and 2019, an average of 1,000 annually. This is way below even your estimate that between 3,000 and 6,000 new homes are required over the next five years. In fact, your own manifesto commitment that says you'd build

'20,000 new low carbon social homes for rent'

is hanging by a thread. RSLs have warned me that if they are unable to increase rents in line with inflation this year, serious cuts will have to be made to the services they provide. They provide debt advice. There are a lot of things that registered social landlords bring in providing quality accommodation. I would certainly like to put on record my thanks for the role they play in providing homes for people in Wales. But also, serious cuts would have an impact on their ability to continue with building projects. What steps will you take to ensure that the RSLs themselves do not have to in any way stall the building of new social housing?

Once again, Janet, asking me these questions in the complete absence of any understanding of the overall financial arrangements in the UK at the moment is just extraordinary. We are facing a cost-of-living crisis across the UK, entirely as a result of the idiotic decisions of the Conservative Government.

We have a very difficult decision to make on setting the rent caps for Wales for social housing—a very difficult decision indeed. You are absolutely right that that is a finely balanced decision based on making sure that we have the rental stream income to ensure that we have both repair and maintenance budgets and new-build budgets capable of meeting the increasing demand—the increasing demand caused by the number of people unable to keep a roof over their head because of the cost-of-living crisis. So, we have a lovely circular vicious circle going on here. That is a very difficult decision to make indeed.

We have around 20 per cent to 30 per cent of our tenants who are self-paying—it depends on which RSL and council you're talking to. It's obviously variant, but it's around 20 per cent to 30 per cent of tenants who are self-paying, who are amongst the lowest paid workers in our public services and in our gig economy who need to be able to keep a roof over their heads in social housing. Then, as we have rehearsed many times, the Conservative Government has seen fit to freeze the local housing allowance, an act of extreme stupidity given the volatility in the housing market. So, there are a number of macro-economic decisions here that are making the situation here considerably worse.

We also have, as you know, global supply chain problems. We have huge problems with getting construction firms to be able to have both the workers and the construction materials they need, because we can no longer recruit the workers from abroad that we used to have. We have a perfect storm of misery. So, of course we want to accelerate that. We work very hard with our RSLs and our social housing providers. I meet with them very regularly, both individually and with the overarching groups. The idea that there is some silver bullet to fix this that isn't related to the mess the economy is currently in is, I'm sorry, just complete pie in the sky.

So, it is hanging by a thread, our ability to build 20,000 low carbon homes. We are almost certainly facing the worst cuts that we have ever seen right across public services. Although, if your Government saw fit to actually announce it at the same time as they announced the mess that they had, we would know already. How you can ask me that question, divorced from the macro-economic situation, I just cannot imagine.

Minister, I am not here to scrutinise your performance over the last few weeks, but I am here to scrutinise and challenge the performance of a Welsh Labour Government over 23 years that has failed consistently, year on year, to build the right number of houses. You must now—. Stop looking to the UK Government to blame them. This is your mess. Devolution under a Welsh Labour Government over the last 23 years has denied many in my community a home and a roof above their head. You must use the levers at your disposal now to ensure that sufficient house building goes ahead. We do not want a repeat of the situation that saw the First Minister take a year and a half, from January 2021 to July 2022, to hold a summit to discuss the serious house building crisis, which has been called by Natural Resources Wales—and they are very close to you—. And their guidance on phosphorous—. In fact, I have been warned that the likely release of marine nutrient data by NRW could now potentially extend the areas impacted across Wales and result in coastal authorities now being unable to grant planning permission for houses. You stated last week— 

You're going to need to come to your question.

I am. You said that this level of discussion about the release of marine nutrients is held at official level. You need to take a leadership role in this. And will you clarify, Minister, whether you are developing a strategy in case the release of marine nutrient data leads to yet more nutrient management issues that exacerbate the house building crisis?

Yet again, Janet, this is like trying to discuss the 1930s without reference to the depression. The idea that you can tell me that my target for phosphates is holding up house building, when you yourself go on about apparently believing in a climate and nature emergency, is just breathtaking, frankly. Our rivers are in a right mess. We need to do something about all of the people who are contributing to that, and that is across a large number of sectors. That is absolutely the water companies; it is absolutely the house builders; it is absolutely the agricultural sector. It is every single sector that is contributing to that. We had a summit over the summer, in which every sector agreed with the First Minister that they would step up to their own responsibility in doing that. NRW, of course, monitor that, and they are, of course, the enforcer, but it is far, far more complicated than that. And for you to tell me that you think the answer to that is for us to take off all limits on what can be built along our rivers and coasts and allow willy-nilly house building, because my phosphate levels are somehow preventing that, whilst simultaneously telling me constantly that you believe in a climate and nature emergency, is, frankly, hypocrisy such as I have seldom seen. 

Thank you, Minister. I can honestly assure you that no-one has ever needed to put words in my mouth. We don't need to go back to the 1930s; 23 years is long enough for the people of Wales to have been failed by your lack of house building. Central to the house building process in Wales are planning and regulatory officers, but so overwhelmed are they with work that I know my own local authority is not able to check adherence to planning conditions, and are now only pursuing enforcement upon complaint. [Interruption.] Sh!

Minister, the Welsh Local Government Association, the Chartered Institution of Wastes Management Wales, Newport City Council, Flintshire County Council and Caerphilly have expressed concerns about a lack of resources and capacity within local authorities for enforcement. So, will you co-operate with us, with your officers across our planning authorities, to ensure that they do have the necessary resources to deal with planning more quickly—more planning applications allowed to go through—so that it helps towards your targets? And, also, we need to have an efficient enforcement process in Wales. Thank you. 

Again, Janet, how do you think those people are paid for? 

Just answer the question. 

I am answering the question. Those people are paid for from the rates support grant. Right? That has been cut successively by Conservative Governments over the last 10 years. Planners are the back-room staff so beloved of Conservative Governments for pillorying for being wasteful. This is the direct result of your austerity policies, with apparently yet more to come. If you think that there is a magic money tree here in the Welsh Government, you are much mistaken. I have not yet found it; it does not exist. Your Government in Westminster is entirely, entirely responsible for the lack of investment in public services, which leads directly to the lack of growth. The anti-growth coalition, Janet, I'm afraid, is absolutely on your benches and in your Government. 

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Mabon ap Gwynfor. 

Thank you very much, Llywydd. I want to start by mentioning something that's common across Wales, but by using an example from my own constituency. A constituent of mine is a single parent, who's had to move in with her sister, because her former partner evicted her from her home. She is now living in a three-bedroomed home, but there are nine people living in that property. She is on the council waiting list, but there's no social housing available, so she's looking for private rental accommodation. Unfortunately, she's been priced out of the private rental market. The cheapest she can find in the area is £700 per month, but she has to prove that she has an income of three times the rent for the agent and the landlord to let it to her. That's £25,000 per year, which is more than the average wage in my constituency. She has no hope of showing that she has an income of £2,100 a month, and apparently this practice of going for a salary three times the rent is very common in the sector. There is talk that she could find a guarantor, but, again, you need family with deep pockets to do that. Do you agree with me that this practice of putting barriers in the way of people on low incomes from accessing the rental sector should come to an end, and what steps are you taking in order to remove these barriers to low-income renters? Thank you.

Absolutely, Mabon, we have some practices growing up in the rental sector that are clearly putting barriers in place for people who want to get there. Obviously, what we'd really like to do is build social homes at pace and scale. I've just had a conversation with the benches opposite about the macroeconomic factors that are preventing us going as fast as we'd like, but I would like to just say that we have put absolutely record levels of investment into that, both through the social housing grant and with our councils. So, we are still building them, but the intervention rate that we are now having to put in is significantly increased for each individual house. The money that we've put aside, despite being at record levels, is, of course, eroded by inflation, which has gone into double figures, I understand, today. It's quite clear, isn't it, that that macroeconomic picture erodes the buying power that we have here in Wales with a fixed income, effectively.

But we are working with the local councils to make sure that they can put up guarantees and bonds for tenants who find themselves in that position in the private rented sector. We are working with our private sector landlords, who we can contact through Rent Smart Wales, to make sure that they know about that and they are willing and able to accept guarantees and bonds from the local authority. That's not open to absolutely everybody, but it sounds as if your constituent would be on the social housing list anyway and would be eligible.

Obviously, I'm constantly saying to the benches opposite that increasing the local housing allowance in line with inflation, as they ought to have done, would significantly help in the situation you find yourself in. We are working with private sector landlords as well to make sure that we get as many of them across into Leasing Scheme Wales as possible, and that's growing apace.

I know that we're having a conversation about rent levels and rent capping, and so on, but, genuinely, we are watching what's happening in Scotland and Ireland with great interest. You'll know that both Governments are currently threatened with legal action over what's happened. I would be really interested to have a conversation with private sector landlords in various areas of Wales to understand what their appetite for staying in the market is, especially if the rent was capped. So, if that landlord can't get that level of rent, what will they do with the house? The difficulty is that, in a volatile housing market and with this kind of interest rate, the likelihood is that that landlord may well sell that house, because they can get similar levels of income from investing the money in the markets, because high inflation obviously helps savers, it only disenfranchises borrowers.

So, genuinely, we are trying to hit again the sweet spot between helping people get into these houses so that they can have a roof over their head, with all the factors that we have about growing social homes as fast as we can, but I also want to incentivise the private sector to stay in the market, so working with them to know what would help. For example, Members very shortly will be hearing from us about things like how we can incentivise the PRS to bring their homes up to the Welsh housing quality standard so that tenants are paying much lower bills when they get into their homes. It's not only the high rent, it's the level of energy expenditure and so on that's really important.

My heart goes out to people all over Wales who find themselves in that situation. We really must go at scale and pace in building those new homes, but we really do need to work with our private rented sector as well to get stability into the market and a decent level of return, whilst providing those homes for people. I'm very happy to look at the specific example, though, if you want to write to me.

I thank the Minister for that response.

The next question, if I may, is on recent research that was commissioned by Back the Bill partners, including Tai Pawb, Shelter Cymru and the Chartered Institute of Housing Cymru. They found that introducing a right to adequate housing would generate significant savings for the public purse. The benefits are significant. The research identified benefits to the public purse worth £11.5 billion over a 30-year period, with an initial 10-year cost of £5 billion. It goes without saying that investing in the improved quality and suitability of homes would lead to fewer hospital admissions. Equally, with a gradual increase in the number of suitable homes available, there'd be less reliance on council and other homelessness support services and so on. So, we welcome the upcoming White Paper, and the Green Paper announced last week in this area, and I very much look forward to co-operating with you to ensure the housing sector can provide for everyone's needs in Wales. However, after decades of chronic underfunding in social housing, does the Minister agree that now is the time to implement an invest-to-save model, as advocated for by Tai Pawb, Shelter Cymru and CIH Cymru, and to embed the right to adequate housing into legislation, as embedded in the United Nations convention on human rights? 

I'm very interested indeed in trialling a right to adequate housing in this Senedd term, for sure. But one of the things we have to make sure is that we get the dominoes in a row first. Members will have heard me speak—my time sense is terrible—very recently in the Chamber about the homelessness legislation that we're about to bring forward. We see that as the first step in securing a continuum towards the right to adequate housing, because, frankly, if you don't have the right not to be homeless, then you're a long way off adequate housing. So, for us, it's about making sure that we line up the legislation so that it seamlessly fits into the ability of the local homelessness services to supply you with the adequate housing that you ought to be able to have.

The truth is that, after all the austerity that we faced—. And bear in mind that the right-to-buy scheme forbade local authorities to replace the social housing that was being sold off, absolutely forbade it, and that it was in my lifetime as a politician that the housing revenue accounts were finally uncapped by the Conservative Government, so that the councils could build again. This is always conveniently forgotten by people on the other benches. We need to wrap that up, we need to get the skills back into those organisations, and then we need to enshrine the right to adequate housing. I would like the right to adequate housing to be more than just an idea, but to be an enforceable individual right, and that's a big step from just enshrining it as a general principle in law. So, we are very pleased to work with Plaid Cymru on the co-operation agreement towards making sure that we do get there, because get there I'm sure we can.

Passenger numbers using public transport have not returned to pre-COVID levels, but we continue to work with partners to seek ways to get people out of their cars and using more sustainable modes.

Thank you, Minister. Minister, I have been campaigning for the restoration of bus services in parts of Bridgend and Pen-y-fai following the decision of the Easyway bus company to cease trading. People living in Pen-y-fai and the other affected areas who are without cars have no means of going shopping, visiting the hospital or accessing many other services unless they pay for a taxi, and there is also a complete lack of active travel routes. I'm also concerned about the loss of a service running past Glanrhyd Hospital. The affected routes were commercially viable, and Bridgend council shows little interest in addressing the problem. How can people be confident that public transport is an attractive offer when we are losing much-needed bus routes, and will the Minister intervene?

As we discussed earlier, we are introducing legislation to put into place a better, more coherent bus system. The challenges are multiple. As he pointed out, many people are reliant on the bus service. We know a quarter of all households don't own a car. Transport for Wales's research of its own passengers suggests that something like 80 per cent of people who travel on the bus don't have a car. So, we have a real sense of transport injustice here, social injustice, as reflected in the way people use modes of transport. There's a particular need to make sure there are good-quality bus services for young people and for people on lower incomes especially, but we want the bus to be something for everyone, not just for those who don't have a choice. We want it to be good enough that it's better to go by bus than it is by car. To do that needs a series of systemic reforms, and we've started that process.

I should point out to the Member that local authorities like Bridgend used to subsidise routes, but 10 years of austerity have meant that the discretionary funding that they had is no longer there. Now, I know that the Conservative benches don't like to be reminded of the financial facts, but when there are right-wing experiments being carried out in Westminster, they have consequences on real people's lives. And when there isn't money available in the budget, discretionary services—non-statutory services like bus routes—get cut. So, there is a consequence between the policies that you put forward, and then you complain when those consequences are played out in real life. I'm afraid that that is simply hypocrisy.

We are trying to address the systemic problems, but without the funding, we can't do it. We know, as the First Minister said yesterday, that the biggest cut that we have had to the Welsh Government's budget in over 20 years of devolution was by Chancellor George Osborne, when he cut our budget by 3 per cent, after a decade of growing budgets under Labour. Since then, we have had a decade of cutting budgets from austerity. And according to the Institute for Fiscal Studies, because the Prime Minister and the Chancellor—whom many of the Members here voted for—have blown up our economy, we now face spending cuts of not 3 per cent, but 15 per cent. Under those sort of cuts, our ability to provide bus services for those who need them will simply not be there. So, you have to look at your own conscience, rather than standing here, telling me that I should intervene. You should intervene to reverse these idiotic policies in Westminster.

One of the most effective ways of getting people out of their cars is to persuade people to walk or cycle short journeys, as I know, Minister, you agree. Obviously, the quickest wins are going to be eliminating car use for travelling to work and travelling to school. This isn't just about creating a better cycling infrastructure on our roads. We also need loan schemes for families who can't afford to buy a bike for their child, and who are struggling to pay £3 a day on school transport.

One of the secondary schools serving my constituency is offering to incorporate safe cycling routes into their transition arrangements for 11-year-olds, but unfortunately, the local authority, at the moment, isn't able to provide us with a map of the safe cycling routes, for the areas from which their putative pupils are going to be coming. So, I just wondered what work you are doing with local authorities to ensure that we are not just seeing this as a roads problem, but that it's also a cultural problem—and working with both our schools and our employers on this.

Well, I couldn't agree more. We are living with the legacy of a culture where cars were put before people, and we had a whole highway network designed around making cars go faster, rather than thinking about how we encourage people to walk or cycle. As Jenny Rathbone knows, some 10 per cent of all journeys are under one mile. Now, these are journeys that could be walked or cycled in many cases but are, by habit, driven in most cases. So, we do have a cultural challenge, and then we have an infrastructure challenge, because people are reluctant when they don't feel safe or it's a novel experience for them to get out of their cars.

Cardiff Council has been doing some excellent work—probably one of the most progressive councils in Wales—on its active travel development. It has, as you know, a legal obligation under the Active Travel (Wales) Act 2013 to produce a map every three years, based on consultation with communities, of where future infrastructure should go. Cardiff Council has submitted its latest map to us, and it shows that a thorough approach has been taken to ensure that all schools are connected to the planned active travel network. Now, that network is going to take time to be put in place. In the meantime, Cardiff Council, partly through its own resources, is working with individual schools, with officer intervention, to try and do softer schemes, beyond the hard infrastructure, to encourage behaviour change. So, I think that there is really good work going on in Cardiff.

There is some work that they have also been doing around Safer Streets, and we've been piloting this with Sustrans in Newport. There is funding available now, as part of the Safe Routes in Communities project, to close streets outside of schools at pick-up and drop-off times. Where that's been tried, it has been hugely successful. That is there for all local authorities in Wales to take part in. Unfortunately, very few have come forward with bids, but it's open for them annually to do that. I am meeting council transport members in the next couple of weeks to constantly push this agenda. It's partly an issue of officer resource and capability, partly an issue of culture and willingness. But as part of our modal shift agenda, this is critical. 

Permitted development rights are kept under review in consultation with local planning authorities, businesses and other organisations with an interest in development and the planning system. The latest changes help deliver flexibility to local authorities to manage second homes and short-term lets.

As you'll know, Minister, the roll-out of ultrafast broadband is going rather well in my Clwyd West constituency as a result of the work of the UK Government, including in the town of Abergele. But one of the concerns that has been expressed to me by local residents is that much of the current underground infrastructure that Openreach have available in the town is not being used, and much of it is going to be replaced with overhead cables on top of poles. That is a concern for local residents, who feel that there ought to have been an obligation on Openreach to maintain the existing infrastructure underground and to replace like with like.

Obviously, the current permitted development arrangements in Wales allow Openreach to do this without any planning consent whatsoever. What consideration will the Welsh Government give to changing the arrangements for utility companies such as Openreach to require them to replace like with like when they're going to upgrade infrastructure in the future? 

Well, just to start off with, it's not a utility. It should be treated as one, but it isn't treated as one, and actually that brings a whole series of consequences. So one of the first things I'd suggest is that you actually ask the UK Government to make it a utility, which would solve quite a lot of why premises that are behind—[Interruption.] 

You're responsible for planning.

Yes, but I'm just saying to you that you said it was a utility and it isn't.

It's an important utility. I was using the definition in a wider sense. 

It makes quite a big difference to how the planning system works, Darren. I'm just telling you, it makes a difference, and it's not a utility.

I also don't know what the UK Government's contract with Openreach to do this piece of work looks like, but why on earth doesn't it involve them in having to utilise existing infrastructure? Ours did. Theirs ought to have done. So again, I'm not in charge of that. It's about time they stepped up to their responsibilities. We've had to put economic development money into expanding broadband in Wales for a long time, because the UK Government have been absolutely dead asleep on the job.

However, I wasn't aware of the particular problem. If you want to write to me, I will certainly look into it, but I would imagine that it's to do with the contract provision, so I will probably want to ask you to write and ask the UK Government Minister whether they're prepared to discuss with me what the contract arrangements for Openreach are for that particular contract. But just bear in mind that, if it was a utility, the planning rules would be very different.

Certainly. On 7 October, I announced that 11 developers have signed up to the Welsh Government’s developers pact. Work is now under way to create the formal legal documentation that will underpin the pact, and I anticipate that a draft of the documentation will be shared with developers by the end of this month.

Many thanks for that, Minister. I'm glad to hear about the legal pact. I'm sure that you'll agree with me that it's not satisfactory that leaseholders are taking developers to court at the moment. That shouldn't happen, and one example is Celestia nearby. You mentioned in your statement timescales with developers; could you give us an update on those timescales?

It's very difficult to give you an update on each developer's timescale, for obvious reasons, Rhys, but we are working with them to understand what the schedule is for their buildings. Some buildings are in remediation now, I'm very pleased to say, and I'm hoping to visit a number of them over the next few weeks. We're delighted that buildings have gone into the remediation phase as the survey work is complete. I've recently written out to all the management companies and various building owners' structures, because trying to figure out who's responsible for what, as you know, under the system is complicated. But we've just written out to all of them making sure that they are aware that they need to give us permission to go in and do the intrusive survey work. We're in touch with a number of residents to try and facilitate that to go a bit faster.

We are looking to make sure that we have a proper pipeline of work for the remediation phase so that we are not competing with one another for skills, supplies and so on, so that we don't inadvertently drive the price up, obviously. And one of the reasons that the Welsh Government has intervened in the way that it has in the surveys is to make sure that that doesn't happen, as in England there's actually been a spiralling cost to the surveys as people complete. So, we always work with our construction firms. Lee Waters and I have a regular meeting with the construction forum and the house builders forum, so we like to work with them to ensure that we have a pipeline, and our SMEs get the work where that's appropriate, and that we have the right skill mix and so on. So, we're working with the developers very closely to make sure that they step up to the responsibility on pay. Here in Wales, leaseholders will not have to pay large legal costs, like they do under the building safety fund, to be able to take that, because we will step in for them. But there's no pretending that we can remediate the number of buildings that we have in a month or so; this is a long-term project. We're also looking to make sure that we do the worst first and we make sure that people are able to live in, and that's why we've got the rescue scheme, and so on, to go with it. As we are aware of the buildings that are into the remediation, I will be sharing as much as I can, for commercial confidentiality reasons for the contract process, with Members, where that is. Llywydd, I'll probably do that by written statement as that becomes available. 

With the greatest of pleasure. Our municipal recycling rate was a record 65.4 per cent in 2020-21, exceeding the 64 per cent target. This achievement, despite all the challenges that the pandemic brought, is testament to the hard work of our local authorities and particularly their front-line staff, who ensured that the people of Wales could continue to recycle, as they have become very accustomed to doing. 

Thank you, Minister. The pleasure is all mine. While we're all urged to do our bit to recycle at home, I want to draw your attention, Minister, to the policy of Swansea council of preventing the recycling of wood at Clyne in Gorseinon recycling centre. That policy results in thousands of people from right across Swansea—from the tip of Gower and places like Mumbles, and areas like Gorseinon in Loughor—having to travel up to 20 miles to Llansamlet, which is the only site that allows people to deposit recyclable wood. Given that people are obviously physically unable to carry heavy loads of wood on public transport, this now causes far higher levels of congestion and emissions on our roads because, obviously, a car is the only means that people have to get to these locations.

When the council, however, were asked about it, they replied that that policy was as a result of the Welsh Government changing the rules when it comes to recycling wood. So, a number of people, it's being reported to me, are now burning wood and sometimes dumping it around Swansea as well. So, Minister, will you work with Swansea council to help them to revise that plan to allow residents to recycle wood at alternative locations across the city, which hopefully will improve recycling rates and reduce pressures on our roads, at a time when Welsh Government and Swansea council have declared a climate emergency? 

Yes, certainly, Tom. One of the issues there is, actually, the interaction of the planning system with the recycling system, as it happens. So, we are looking to see what we can do to ensure that that doesn't happen. We're also, as you know, about to go to a target of 70 per cent across Wales, and just in the Swansea area, we have three very high-performing councils, but Bridgend County Borough Council, I have to say, is singled out for a mention as they're at 69 per cent. So, I'm very pleased indeed that they've been able to do that. We are always looking for source-segregated recycling as well, because we're able to attract reprocessors to Wales in increasing numbers, and they bring with them the green jobs that we so badly need. And also, of course, they reduce the need for virgin materials to be used in the manufacturing of various commonly used items. So, one of the things that we are looking to do in getting to that 70 per cent is having more source-segregated recycling picked up by the local authority as part of the rounding. We will be announcing some stuff with that. 

There have been some specific issues that I am aware of, of course, in Swansea; you're aware that my constituency is a third of what you just mentioned there. We will be working with Swansea to make sure that we can redress that situation. There is a small issue around what is classed as waste wood, which I won't bother the Llywydd with as she will be looking at me patting her watch. But, I'm more than happy to have a separate discussion with you about it.  

We are supporting the housing sector to continue to supply new homes in the context of current challenges. Our new local housing market assessment approach assists local authorities to plan a sustainable housing supply that will meet local need.

Thanks for your response. Up-to-date Stats Wales figures show that 7,492 new social homes were delivered in Wales during the first 12 years of devolved Labour Government, 11 of which coincided with a UK Labour Government—a 73.45 per cent fall on the 28,215 new social homes delivered in Wales during the 12 years of a UK Conservative Government up to 1997. The 2012 UK housing review stated that it was the Welsh Government itself that gave housing lower priority in its overall budgets, so that by 2009-10, it had by far the lowest proportional level of housing expenditure of any of the four countries. In 2019, the highest year for UK new home registration since 2007, the numbers in Wales fell by over 12 per cent. Even the latest published figures for quarter 2 of this year show that Wales was the only nation or region of 12 in the UK to see new home completions reduce. If you dispute any of these official figures, I can send them to you. 

So, if you don't dispute these, when will you stop telling and start asking the whole housing sector, including cross-sector housing providers, how to tackle Labour's long-standing affordable housing supply crisis in Wales, which I and the whole sector—and Plaid Cymru at the time—began warning Labour Welsh Government about 18 years ago?

Well, you know, Mark, what I would say is, again, the Conservatives' ability to quote statistics outside of the macroeconomic situation just beggars belief. So, this Government has set record levels of social housing grant funding through the budget, so that's £300 million, and indicative draft budget allocations of £330 million for next year and £325 million for the year after that, subject, of course, to the absolute chaos that we see at Westminster. In north Wales, the social housing grant has increased from £48,533,745 spent in 2021-22 to £65,750,153 allocated in 2022-23. So, very significant increases—very nearly doubling, actually.

We have become the first nation to mandate that all new-build social housing grant funded homes are designed to EPC A rating, through the Welsh development quality requirements that were launched in July 2021. This is about more than just building any old house, chucking it up and making sure that you can call that a new build. Your own Government has had to put a new homes ombudsman in place because of the absolutely appalling state of many of the new homes you were so happily reading out the statistics on, Mark. They are absolutely appalling. They are badly built, they are draughty, they are hard to live in, and they've literally had to put an ombudsman in place to control the market. It is far, far better to have the proper local market housing assessment, the right level of mixed tenure, and the right level of insulation and carbon neutrality than to chuck up any old thing any old place and give yourself a tick.

Diolch, Rhianon. Our policies of supporting households, businesses and the public sector to reduce energy demand together with positive action to scale up the production of domestically produced renewable energy will enhance energy security in all areas of Wales.

Thank you, Minister. As the cost-of-living crisis deepens and anxiety levels rise for residents across Islwyn due to the ever-increasing energy bills, it is vital now more than ever that the UK grips the issue of energy security. Minister, you issued a written statement earlier this year in April, following the Russian invasion of Ukraine, that stated that the Welsh Government continued to oppose the extraction of fossil fuels in Wales, and continues to oppose fracking. Minister, what assessment, then, has the Welsh Government made, in the months since the written statement, of the UK Government's partnership working with devolved administrations to both safeguard and secure energy supplies for all the nations of the United Kingdom?

Thank you, Rhianon. The answer to this energy crisis is not to expand new extraction of fossil fuels. We do not support the UK Government's plans to expand new oil and gas licences in the North sea and open new fracking in England. Our policies will continue to oppose new extraction in Wales. Years—years—of regressive energy policy at UK level have left us really exposed to global price surges, highlighted by recent events, with energy prices already at record highs subject to further upward pressure due to Russia's war on Ukraine. Despite the welcomed energy price freeze—although, again, that's fluctuating all over the place as we speak, and goodness knows who the Chancellor is by the end of these remarks, with the volatility. We welcome an energy price freeze, but they are still considerably higher than they were last winter, even with this energy freeze—still unaffordable, despite the energy freeze, for many, many households.

We also have higher interest rates and a weaker pound, which fuels inflation to levels not seen since the 1980s when, let me think now, oh, a Conservative Government was in charge, and that is really sapping people's ability to pay these ridiculous prices, and, of course, it's making the energy more expensive anyway. We have an energy market that is pegged to the price of gas that takes no account of the different market in renewables, where the capital expenditure to build the facility is far more important than the supply of energy, because that's free, obviously, for a renewable resource. So, reforming the energy market in a way that gives stability to the industry and certainty for consumers, is much, much needed and long, long overdue. So, we're really working on progressing the recommendations of our renewable energy deep-dive, which Lee Waters undertook, as soon as we came into Government, actually, in order to be able to accelerate renewable deployment and secure economic and social benefit for Wales, and our local area energy planning will help identify for the people of Islwyn and across Wales the right energy solutions for the right facility in the right place.

Finally, question 9. Luke Fletcher.

Yes. A more detailed review of the Learner Travel (Wales) Measure 2008 will take place shortly.

Thank you for that response, Minister.

I receive frequent correspondence from constituents about the daily hindrances they face due to the mileage thresholds. It cannot be that in 2022 there are still these fundamental barriers being placed on some of the most disadvantaged communities in Wales—barriers well within Welsh Government's and local authorities' powers to remove. Back in March, I drew specific attention to Caerau, a community that sits just north of Maesteg in the Llynfi valley. As we head into the winter months, children in Caerau will be forced to walk 45 minutes to an hour to and from school in all weathers. They will be forced to walk along routes that are not safe, and many children with asthma will be forced to walk along roads that are heavily congested. Local authorities have discretionary powers here, and in circumstances such as these could reduce the mileage threshold to include deprived areas like Caerau, but they haven't, so will the Government step in?

Well, thank you for the question. As you know, there's a legal requirement under the learner travel Measure to provide transport based on a threshold of three miles, and I appreciate the point made by Luke Fletcher that that is sometimes too far for many children. I myself walked with children from Ysgol y Gwendraeth from Tumble to their school before the lockdown, a three-mile journey. They kindly asked me to carry their music bags, and, by the time I got to the school, my back was pretty tired, I must say. So, I'm sympathetic to the argument.

You rightly point out that there are discretionary powers for local authorities to alter that, and Rhondda Cynon Taf County Borough Council, for example, provide transport over a two-mile threshold. Though it's possible to do it, there clearly needs to be funding to do it. School transport accounts for something like a £100 million annual bill; it's one of the biggest items of spending by local authorities next to social services, and the funding simply hasn't been there. And given the cuts we're facing, it's going to get even more difficult to sustain the services they already provide. I think that's something we need to soberly consider: the reality of spending cuts of the order of 15 per cent mean that the basic services we've come to take for granted may not be sustainable. 

We have set out a review, as Luke Fletcher mentioned, into the learner travel Measure. We've done the first part of that, and we're now in the second part of that, and we'll be consulting with stakeholders to look at the detail of the very complex arrangements that may need to change and will need legislation.

I'm also quite keen to bind this into the broader bus system. So, instead of putting just £100 million into school transport and then a separate amount of money into bus services that may not, therefore, exist, we need to bring that together. I had a very exciting conversation with the new administration in Monmouthshire last week who are looking to see if they can look across the services and bring those together. It's not straightforward; there are things that need to be worked through, but I think it's a far more strategic approach. So, as I mentioned to Hefin David earlier, as we look at the density of the bus networks we're going to need, we need to include school transport as well as broader public transport in one look.

The other thing I'd say is we want also to make active travel more of an option for more young people. Three miles, for example, is a journey that most people could cycle in around 20 minutes or so, if there are suitable and safe facilities, and what we want through the Active Travel (Wales) Act 2013 is for local authorities to put those facilities in place, so not to focus on leisure routes, but to focus on how do we get people from where they live to where they go to school. So, for a number of pupils, that could be a viable option—not for everybody, but for more than currently. 

I did meet recently, with Sarah Murphy, with the cabinet member from Bridgend, Councillor Jon-Paul Blundell, and Councillor John Spanswick to consider this item and the pressures in particular Bridgend are under, and the work that's going on to try to see what can be done. But I do fear that all the good work we're putting in place and all the aspirations we have could be washed away by the austerity that's about to hit us.

I thank the Deputy Minister and the Minister.

The next item, therefore, is questions to the Minister for Economy. The first question today is from Natasha Asghar.

We are in preliminary discussions with the current UK Government Minister to understand the investment zone proposals and potential implications for Wales in more detail. Any initiative that comes forward for Wales would need to align with our policies on fair work and the environment, for example, as well as generating genuinely additional growth, rather than simply displacing business activity.

Thanks, Minister. I recently met with the Federation of Small Businesses Wales to discuss the problems facing companies trying to grow and thrive in the current difficult economic climate. Against a backdrop of uncertainty, it was made clear that alleviating cost pressures for small and medium enterprise must be a priority for the Welsh Government. In that context, there was dismay and disappointment at the scepticism expressed by Welsh Ministers about the UK Government's policy of investment zones, which are designed to drive economic growth by a variety of tax, regulatory, innovative flexibilities and planning simplifications. These include 100 per cent relief from business rates on newly occupied business premises. Minister, given the UK Government's intention to establish investment zones, will you commit to engage constructively with Westminster to ensure Wales is not left behind so that Welsh businesses can capture the potential for increased economic activity and create the high-skilled jobs that we all want to see? Thank you.

Well, you're right, it is a difficult time for families and for businesses who are struggling to survive, with the uncertainty and unstable picture at a UK level. That has a real impact for all of us. The cost of business finance has increased, as well as individual costs for home owners as well. Of course, I've noticed inflation is just over 10 per cent in the updated figures today. I think trying to suggest that the Welsh Government taking a properly interested and constructive role in the investment zone proposal that has been made is leading to dismay and is the real cause for fear and uncertainty for the future of businesses simply doesn't reflect the reality of where we are. In my direct engagement with the Federation of Small Businesses they have never expressed anything approaching dismay at the approach that I am taking in engagement with UK Ministers. I need to understand properly what the proposals are, what the proposals mean for Wales, what they mean for devolved taxation, and what they mean for the revenue realities of this Government, bearing in mind the fact that we expect to face a tightening, a reduction, a cut in our budget when the Halloween budget is finally delivered. And we also again need to understand what will happen to investment zones near our border. Investment zones are proposed in the south-west and indeed there's a proposal to impose an investment zone in Cheshire West and Wirral, and these things will matter to us. I need to understand the policies, I need to understand what it really means, and I would ideally like to have a conversation that looks much more like the end of our free ports discussion, rather than the megaphone shouting in the year and more that preceded that agreement.

Our religious heritage has an important place at the heart of our communities. The Welsh Government provides funding and support to faith-based heritage projects in various ways. We actively support both buildings and organisations in this sector to conserve and promote this aspect of our shared history.

Thank you for that response, Minister, and I am grateful for the support that the Welsh Government has given to a number of projects across north Wales and indeed in other parts of the country. One project that is currently under way in north Wales is being organised by Nathan Abrams and his team from Bangor University, who've been researching the history of Jewish communities in north Wales. They've already undertaken research into the Jewish history of Anglesey, Gwynedd and the Llandudno areas, and they're now moving into north-east Wales to continue with their research. This is, obviously, very important, not just to the Jewish community, but to other people in north Wales who care deeply and passionately about our faith narrative as a country. What support is the Welsh Government giving to such research projects? And if little investment is going into the research of this sort of history, can I encourage the Welsh Government to take a good look at how it might be able to facilitate these sorts of things in the future?  

Well, I'll certainly look at the issue together with the Deputy Minister, who normally leads in this area. Of course, she is well aware of Jewish heritage, given the work that has been done in her own constituency. And I'm particularly interested in not just Jewish heritage within the city of Cardiff, which I represent a good chunk of, but also the reality that it still plays an important role in the lives of many people, not just at festival time. So, I recognise that the history of faith communities is part of social history and what it means for the future. So, I'm more than happy to commit to having a discussion with the Deputy Minister to understand more about both the project and what the Welsh Government can do to be broadly supportive.  

Questions from party spokespeople now. Conservative spokesperson, Tom Giffard.

Diolch, Llywydd. Good afternoon, Minister. This is my last opportunity to question you before Cymru begin their historic first world cup campaign in 64 years. I wanted to highlight though what Nasser Al Khater, the chief executive of Qatar 2022, recently said in a media interview. He suggested that Governments should focus on the football and leave it at that. We all know that Qatar has, at best, a patchy record when it comes to human rights and its treatment of the LGBT community. And we have a duty, I think, to highlight these issues to fans making the trip to Qatar and not prejudiced for just being themselves. They've even suggested that Welsh captain, Gareth Bale, doesn't wear the rainbow OneLove armband. I know that you, the First Minister and the Deputy Minister for Arts and Sport all plan on going to Qatar to watch Wales's group games, so I wanted to give you the opportunity to respond to those comments by the chief executive of Qatar 2022 world cup before you go. And can I also ask you whether you'll be raising the issues regarding LGBT rights and human rights more generally whilst you're out there?

I want to start by recognising, of course, that I am looking forward to the men’s team taking part in the finals of the football world cup. I want to start by recognising the achievement of the women’s team though. Albeit they’ve not qualified for the finals, the significant progress they’ve made has made everyone right across this Chamber and outside it tremendously proud and there should be real hope for the future. And I certainly hope the Football Association of Wales continues to invest in the women’s game at all levels, so that there are more Jess Fishlocks playing in our national team in the future, and I think it’s good for all of us to see our women’s team being generally competitive.

On the men’s world cup, I have already highlighted the issues that you’ve raised in my previous visit to Qatar. It was part of the engagement with the British Embassy and the organisers. I know that there are times when people say, ‘You should keep politics and sport separate’, and there’s a good reason why politicians in this Chamber don’t get to decide issues about the running of sports that are quite properly the remit of those governing bodies, but it is entirely appropriate for us to have conversations with governing bodies and international ones about our expectations for fans and for players. It is entirely appropriate to recognise the context in which games are being played.

So, yes, I have already raised those issues directly. I hope people do enjoy the football well beyond the group stage—I certainly hope so. But you can expect us to have constructive conversations, as I’ve outlined in my previous statement in this place, about being proud of the Wales that we are today and the values that we have, and engaging with the rest of the world on that basis. And I hope that there is an attack of common sense from FIFA’s point of view in not trying to prevent captains of teams from wearing the rainbow armband or others. I think it’s a mark of where we are that our football captains from across these islands think that’s a positive thing for them to do for the game and beyond.

Thank you, Minister. I'm grateful to you for making that clear and I think the Senedd stands united in distancing us from those comments as well. As you say, sport and politics are intertwined and it's very important that we make that very clear to those travelling Cymru fans who will be going out to Qatar as well.

It's my first opportunity also to question you as the Minister responsible for tourism since you took on the role 18 months ago. Since that time, the Minister for finance has made four statements here in the Senedd on tourism; you've made none. Why?

Well, actually, you have had opportunities to ask questions on tourism, and you simply directed them to the Deputy Minister. I'm glad you've rediscovered the ministerial responsibility sheet. [Laughter.] Look, when it comes to statements and work, the statements we make in the Chamber are about work as we're progressing it and I am working closely with the Minister for finance on some of the measures that we're looking at around our tourism sector, in particular on delivering our manifesto commitment around a visitor levy. I have regular engagement with the sector and it is an important sector for me.

In fact, yesterday, I was at the British tourist board's meeting in Wales at the International Convention Centre, making points to VisitBritain that it's important that, in their work, they promote all parts of the tourist offer we have within the United Kingdom. The merger between VisitBritain and VisitEngland is something that I still think is challenging and doesn't necessarily give all of the right messages. But we have a unique offer within Wales—the culture, the linguistic heritage, our own history, where we are today with smaller cities to visit than some parts of England, for example. There is lots and lots that we have to offer and lots that we do discuss, both with those strategic national bodies on how they're presenting Britain to the wider world as well as within Britain and indeed directly with the sector here itself, which I recognise is one of the largest private sector employers within the economy.

I'm afraid I have to disagree with you, Minister. The fact that you're the Minister responsible for tourism, but haven't really had anything proactive to say on the topic, whilst the finance Minister has been introducing tourism taxes and changes to self-catering holiday properties, tells us that this is a Government that doesn't see tourism as something to be promoted or enhanced—that you see it as something to tax instead. Frankly, I think that this is a Welsh Labour Government that has run out of ideas when it comes to tourism in Wales. So, Minister, how about committing to a Welsh Conservative idea instead? If the Welsh Government is going to implement a tourism tax—[Interruption.]

I can't hear the questioner. Can we hear Tom Giffard in a bit of silence, please? We need to hear what he has to say.

Diolch, Llywydd. If the Welsh Government is going to implement a tourism tax—and I sincerely hope you don't—what we're calling for is for the Welsh Government to exempt those with disabilities and armed forces personnel, at a minimum, from paying a tourism charge. Is this something you'll commit to today?

I think there are a couple of things I'd say in response to the Member. A range of the statements I've made about the economy has certainly had a direct impact on some of the choices we're looking to make on promoting the visitor economy, which is a significant sector of employment and a sector that is under real pressure. People's discretionary spend reducing, as it's likely to do, further, because of the well-advertised issues following the mini-budget less than four weeks ago, has a real impact on this sector in particular. And when I held the recent economic summit, we certainly did talk about the visitor economy and some of the challenges that it faces.

I think it's also worth pointing out that it may seem novel to Conservative politicians, but, actually, we stood on a manifesto that we intend to implement. We've published a programme for government and we've discussed additions to it with our co-operation agreement partners, and I'm not going to apologise for being a strong and stable Government acting in the national interest, as opposed to the coalition of chaos we see in Westminster. We're going to deliver on the pledges that we made. The big challenge in delivering on our pledges is the significant change in the economic picture and the spending to both support public services and the economy.

And when it comes to your final point, about members of the forces or disabled people, I think you need to reflect that not all of those people need special rates and special treatment. I just think that—. I'll give you an example. I visited tourist accommodation that we've helped the owners to improve, and they actually said that the rooms that they had the most consistent and busy bookings on—and this is a five-star offer—were actually the disabled-access rooms. And that's because the market has both shrunk, in terms of the number of rooms that are genuinely accessible—. And when I visited a four-star offer in Swansea, they also said they'd had lots of interest in their accessible rooms. So, actually, there's a challenge there about having enough access to the sector, not about saying those people need help with the costs. They actually want to be able to go and enjoy themselves as visitors, and have the ability to go to good-quality facilities to do so. And actually, our challenge is having an offer that is varied enough and is sustainable for everyone to have the opportunity to enjoy what Wales has to offer, right across the country.

We'll continue to take forward a consultation on delivering our manifesto pledges, and to do so in a way that balances the interests of the visitor economy and indeed those communities that host significant chunks of our visitor economy, in both rural, coastal, and city and town settings.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Luke Fletcher.

Diolch, Llywydd. Yesterday, I raised with the First Minister the crisis facing the energy-intensive industries. I asked about whether the Welsh Government are planning on introducing further support, specifically around helping to reduce energy bills, through supporting businesses like breweries in producing their own green energy, as well as looking at voltage optimisation. I'll put the same question to you, Minister, as it was unclear yesterday from the First Minister's answer. The reality is that current support isn't sufficient, and most energy-intensive businesses, especially breweries, have spent a lot of, if not all of, their reserves surviving COVID, and now find themselves in a position where many don't see themselves lasting beyond winter.

Interestingly, this is an area where I've already been considering what we might be able to do for some weeks, so it's not led by the question, but it is something that we're actively looking at—about how we can help people both to potentially decarbonise, as well as the potential to generate energy that isn't subject to the fluctuations and the upward rise in energy prices that we've seen.

It was actually part of the conversation I had at the recent cross-party group meeting on beer and the pub—and I see the Chair is with us; good to see you, Mr Sargeant. And in discussions with brewers who were there, it is one of their real concerns. Brewers, bakers, glass makers—there is a whole range of energy-intensive industries outside the big headline areas of the steel sector, for example, and we're really concerned that their needs are recognised in the UK Government scheme, not just the six months of some support that is available, but in the design of a future scheme that recognises their needs. Because you're right, for many of those people, they're concerned about making it through the Christmas period and then getting to the end of the six-month support and not having to make potentially business-ending choices before then. So, I recognise the real risk that exists in both the brewing sector and beyond.

The shame is that, actually, it's been a sector of real success for Wales with a growth in smaller brewers and indeed a broader growth in the food and drink industry. You may or may not know it, but Alun Davies is not just a supporter of the sector in his own personal conduct. When he was the Minister with responsibility for food and drink, he set stretching targets at the time for growth in the sector. At the time, there were people who derided him for setting those targets, saying that it would never be done. We've actually over-achieved on those targets.

Thank you, Minister. Of course, you are right in saying that there's been great success in the breweries sector within Wales, especially the small independent ones. We're at risk right now of losing all of that great progress in a very short space of time. So, whilst it's good to hear that you're actively considering support, I would hope that the Government would bring forward a statement as soon as possible, because, as I said, winter has always been tough for hospitality, but especially in the last few years. It's where they make their money in order to be able to survive the January and February months, but this Christmas is looking like that's going to be impossible. So, I'd hope that support will be forthcoming as soon as possible.

We've talked about other energy-intensive sectors as well. You mentioned steel. I'd like to touch on steel in particular as another energy-intensive industry. I'm sure the Minister has read UK Steel's report on the future of UK steel. There are some startling figures within. UK steel makers pay 30 per cent more for electricity than their counterparts in Germany and up to 70 per cent more than their counterparts in France. The No.1 priority outlined in the report is competitive energy prices. Achieving this will be key to the longevity of the sector, especially, as the Financial Times reports, in the case of Tata Steel that are looking to move to electric arc furnaces.

In fairness to the Welsh Government, the level and scale of investment needs to come from UK Government. But, unfortunately, the show that has happened in Westminster has left a lot of uncertainty in the Welsh steel sector. The Minister did come to the recent CPG on steel and outlined the then troubles he was having with UK Government, but has the Minister had any recent engagement with the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy under this new regime, on the subject of Welsh steel, and what assurances can he provide the sector today?

I just want to return to the end point you made about hospitality. I'm very well aware that the summer has been reasonable but not bumper. So, actually, right across hospitality, there are real challenges going into the autumn and the winter. It makes the Halloween budget even more important for them about what that does in terms of our ability to support this sector, but also more broadly the economy moving forward. There are still challenges around staffing, but consumer confidence and discretionary spend is a very real issue that directly affects the business viability. A number of hospitality businesses do make a significant amount of their profits in the period leading up to the turn of the year, but I am very well aware that a number of those businesses are really struggling in the run up to it, and a number are running on shorter hours as a direct result of a combination of all those factors. 

When it comes to steel, I met Kwasi Kwarteng when he was the Secretary of State for BEIS, as he then was, at a steel council that we hosted in Cardiff. We were, at that point, making the case for clarity from the UK Government about investment around Tata, and you'll have seen they've publicly surfaced their position, but also the perennial issue in every steel council of energy costs. Because there is a differential in the cost of energy as it's supplied to sectors in Germany and other parts of Europe too. That continues to be an ask. I have sought a meeting with both Simon Clarke and indeed with Jacob Rees-Mogg, who is the new Secretary of State for BEIS. That's yet to happen.

In the initial meeting I had with Simon Clarke about investment zones—he requested a meeting—as I said in earlier answers, we were constructive but clear in our response. I made clear, and indeed in the follow up, that steel is one of the priority areas where I think we could actually do something of real use and value and we would be keen to have a purposeful conversation about how the sector can be supported. There are significant opportunities in the steel sector in Wales and beyond, particularly when we look at opportunities in the Celtic sea, for economic activity. I want that steel to be made in the UK and not imported from other parts of the world, to make sure we get the most out of the opportunities that exist. We'll continue to make the case for both constructive engagement with Ministers and then active budget choices to allow those opportunities to be realised.

Thank you. Newport boasts heritage sites of international importance, from the Roman period through to our recent industrial past. The Welsh Government will continue to promote and enhance Newport's unique heritage for its residents and visitors from around the globe.

Thank you for that answer, Minister. As you said, from the Chartists to Tredegar House, the transporter bridge to our medieval ship, Newport is a treasure trove of historical significance. One of our jewels in our crown is the village of Caerleon and the Roman architecture that remains there today. Many here will have visited it, and if not, Minister, you are very welcome to join me and the Deputy Minister on a visit. The amphitheatre is almost 2,000 years old, but the site also contains the finest remains of Roman barracks in Europe, along with a bath house and fortifications. This is a sizeable historical offer and dwarfs other Roman remains in the UK, including Bath. There is still more to discover, and I know that the national museum and Cadw are keen to work together with others, such as the local authority, to promote Caerleon both locally and nationally. But what more can the Welsh Government do to make the most of our historical offer and ensure that it is part of our future as well as our past?

I completely agree, and I have been to Caerleon. I visited the amphitheatre and the barracks with my son and in-laws visiting from Ireland. They were very impressed and they would happily go back again at a future point. I'm quite excited about the recent discoveries of more on that site, including what looked like the remains of a port there as well. So, there is much more to do in uncovering the history of that site and not just preserving it to tell a story, but what it means about our future as well. I definitely see heritage and history as a big part of the visitor economy, and you're right that Cadw, Newport council, and the national museum are already talking, and we're trying to get around that to make sure that we are talking about not just what we preserve, but what it means for the future. I think it's a key part of the offer of Newport and the surrounding area. The built and the ongoing heritage of the area is but a part of what makes Newport an attractive place to be, and I look forward to joining the Member on a future visit.

Minister, it's great to hear Jayne Bryant of course mentioning the medieval ship, and also great to hear your appreciation for the historical findings in Newport. The Newport medieval ship was discovered in the banks of the River Usk in June 2002, and is the most substantial late-medieval vessel excavated and recovered in Britain. The internationally important fifteenth-century ship would expect to attract an estimated 150,000 visitors to view the ship once it is displayed properly, boosting the south Wales and Newport economy by about £7 million per year. The Friends of the Newport Ship campaign volunteers are asking for the Welsh Government and Newport council to commit and finally deliver a more central, permanent home for the ship—as it was first proposed at the bottom of Newport Theatre, as you're aware, Minister—after investing £9 million so far of public money. It's something that has been promised, and is a Labour manifesto commitment, yet only £10,000 in capital funding has been earmarked since. The current site, which I visited—and the volunteers do a fantastic job of what they've got where they are—has now been a temporary home for them for 20 years. Would the Minister commit to working with Newport council to ensure that we make the most of this unique finding by ensuring that a central location is found as soon as possible, and that enough moneys will be ring-fenced to ensure that both Newport, my region of south-east Wales, and Wales, can maximise the financial and historical benefits of having such a historical artefact in Newport? As an archaeologist said—

No, no, no—not as the archaeologist said, at a minute and 40 seconds.

Just one sentence—one sentence.

A question.

I asked my question. That was just reiterating the question.

Oh, if you've asked your question it can be answered. It's going to be answered now. Okay.

Yes. We'll continue to work with both the Friends of the Newport Ship and also the council, as they are committed to trying to find a permanent home for the ship, and it's a significant enterprise in conserving all 2,000 of the ship's timbers. The challenge will be in identifying a budget for a permanent home at a time when there are very real challenges for our current budget, and we'll all have to reassess what we're able to deliver after the Halloween budget is delivered. But the commitment to find a permanent home for the Newport ship remains and I recognise the significant visitor potential that it has, as well as learning about our shared past.

Yes. The consultation closed at the end of September of this year, with over 150 written submissions being received. Analysis of consultation responses is now under way and we will continue to work with Plaid Cymru designated Members, in line with the co-operation agreement commitment, to jointly develop a new innovation strategy.

Diolch, Weinidog. Welsh universities are, of course, vital to the economy, generating over £5 billion and almost 50,000 jobs. I'd like to draw attention to some concerns raised regarding the draft strategy. In the STEM cross-party group meeting last month, it was suggested Welsh Government does not intend to earmark any new money for the strategy, with the Reid review recommendations off the table and science not seen as a priority. The Institute of Physics notes the draft strategy acknowledges Wales now needs to win more UK Research and Innovation funding to compensate for the loss of structural funds but does not include practical measures to help Welsh applicants win more money, with their research and development blueprint noting quality-related funding has not kept pace with inflation for a decade. The British Heart Foundation points to the current £18 million shortfall for funding R&D within our universities, which is drastically limiting their ability to apply for UK-wide funding streams, hampering Wales's ability to allow research to drive a thriving economy. And Cardiff University have said there is a lack of specific priorities and of vital financial commitments included in the current draft. Minister, do you agree that Welsh Government's innovation strategy should ensure Wales is able to additionally capture resources for the benefit of innovation in Wales, such as UKRI funding and charity funding for medical research? And how will this happen without an uplift in QR funding? Diolch.

Thank you. So, there has been an uplift in QR funding that the education Minister provided to higher education institutions. You're right that we have a real challenge in the removal of structural funds and identifying a replacement. It is absolutely essential that Wales is much more successful at gaining funds from UKRI. That's a case that is being made directly and has been made successively. Part of my frustration is that I felt that some progress had been made with a previous science Minister who is no longer in post; I've yet to meet the current science Minister, but I do look forward to doing so. This isn't just a point about geographic equity. Geographic equity is actually a big challenge outside the south-east of England. So, if you were having this conversation in northern England, you'd have the same problem about not actually having the quality of research being recognised in the way that funding is delivered. It is also then about, actually, not just the funders recognising the quality that exists, but actually us not just submitting bids but having good bids submitted. There's a regular challenge of needing to pass the test and the test not necessarily reflecting the quality of the work. We need to be better at both the quality of the work, at promoting that, and then at making sure that we get through the gates on making sure that we have successful applications. There is some work the Government can do around that, but actually it's about the whole sector getting behind that and recognising they've got to put some resources into getting more out of UK funding pots, which actually have been increased. There's more money available for research and innovation, and we need to do something about gaining additional funding. Yes, when the strategy comes out, I expect it will have a clearer view set out on how we expect to gain additional funding. We actually held a very useful and constructive round-table discussion, hosted by Cardiff University, with a range of people about how to piece together the new innovation strategy. I and the leader of Plaid Cymru attended, and I'm looking forward to having not just a summary of the consultation responses but actually being able to deliver a statement on the future of the strategic approach here in Wales. 

According to your consultation document, between 2014 and 2020 there were over 450 corporate investments into Wales across a broad range of sectors and businesses, many of which involved R&D activity. They delivered over 21,200 new jobs, with a further 18,300 being safeguarded, representing a capital investment into Wales of £3.8 million. What does this tell us about the scope for further and future investment of this sort, and how do we ensure that those communities who have not benefited so far can do so in the future? Thank you.

We're optimistic in our ambitions about our ability to both attract new businesses to come to Wales as well as businesses that were already founded here to grow and expand. A good example of that is in the compound semiconductor cluster. I recently attended the groundbreaking ceremony with Jayne Bryant in her constituency for the KLA Corporation—750 new jobs being created with an expected average salary of £45,000. That includes manufacturing and R&D as well. I'm always interested in how we can have R&D functions located in Wales, and not simply those functions that aren't R&D specific. It definitely does add value, and we look for that in each of the projects that we seek to support, from small businesses as well as medium and larger enterprises.

Public swimming pools are an important health and leisure resource, and, equally, an important part of our nation’s well-being. We know that many face unprecedented challenges. We don't have an exact assessment of the number that may have to close. We will continue to monitor the situation closely and, where necessary, if we need to, to work with the UK Government to do everything possible to ensure that they remain open in the face of significant rises in energy and running costs.

Thank you, Minister. That's really reassuring to hear. I know that you're familiar with the story of Plas Madoc Leisure Centre in my constituency and the incredible work done by volunteers to keep it open through thick and thin. But they're really facing the wall this winter, partly as a result of Brexit, with chemical costs rising through the roof and delivery challenges, but also because of rising energy prices and they estimate that their energy bill could more than double. Minister, what exactly do you think could be done by Welsh Government and by UK Government to support those vital public swimming pools that do so much good for public health?

You're right, we have some really big challenges. I know that the Member in his private time, as a dad, enjoys swimming, and I too have taken advantage of the opportunity to go and spend time with my own son, but I recognise that that activity is really challenged because of the energy cost, and one of the things that isn't often talked about is the costs of chemical imports as a real issue in this and other sectors as well.

We actually gave local government a generous settlement at the start of last year, with an announcement of a 9.4 per cent increase in their budgets, and yet we've seen that overtaken by inflation. So, local authorities aren't full of lots of money to help these enterprises continue and succeed, and we know the damage that is done if they close, and I in particular pay tribute to all the people around Plas Madoc who have kept that running.

We're looking forward to not just understanding what's happening in the UK Government scheme for non-domestic energy users, but understanding how intensive energy users are to be treated as well, because, actually, I think swimming pools have a good case to be treated as an energy-intensive enterprise. So, we'll continue to make the case at UK level as well as trying to work constructively with our partners in local government, because I certainly want to see swimming pools continue for use for people of all ages.

It's an important point that Ken Skates makes, and, indeed, privately run swimming pools, and certainly local authority-run swimming pools and leisure facilities are in a really difficult situation. They're so fundamental, aren't they, to the well-being of our communities. So, for these facilities to become more sustainable, then, we need to look to help them utilise alternative and green sources of energy to help reduce their costs as well as helping them to meet our climate change commitments. Minister, I just wondered how you are working with your colleagues to consider that wider support that the Government can offer the private sector leisure facilities to move towards cheaper, greener forms of energy. And, as the Minister for Economy, what consideration have you given to helping businesses to access initiatives such as the local district heating networks?

Actually, it goes back to some of the points I was making in response to earlier questions about what we're considering in terms of increasing our support for businesses to both decarbonise and also to de-risk their own energy supply with energy generation—that includes district heating schemes as well—and look at where we have different economic enterprises and how the heat that is potentially generated can be used to beneficial effect. So, it's a point that I think the Member will understand well from his previous time as a local authority leader, looking at the opportunities for district heating and power schemes, and looking to see how many of those we can introduce and where they are. But there is a much broader challenge about inflationary costs. Part of our challenge also is that in the way that our energy market is currently structured, we allowed gas to drive prices in a way that is disconnected from reality. So, we've got some really big challenges to try to work through. We need to understand in the next two weeks the financial levers we have available to us, and we need to understand what the scheme is going to be for non-domestic energy users. They all play into each other, but we'll certainly look to be as constructive as possible, and I'll be making a further statement in the coming weeks about some of that support.

I've set out action within the employability and skills plan to help everyone, particularly those furthest from the labour market, to navigate and respond to any work-related challenges they may face, whether that is through training, upskilling or changing careers.

Thank you, Minister. Businesses and agencies are struggling to recruit due to leaving the EU, visa complications and the pandemic. The slogan 'Stop immigration now' drove a lot of the Brexit rhetoric, without any recognition of the huge contributions that those that move here make here in the UK. The pandemic made people over 50 rethink their lifestyle, not wanting to work the now normalised long hours and terrible shifts that are expected. Public service funding is dire, and private businesses can no longer fill the gap that would be left behind by the public sector. Minister, what are you doing to encourage those that are in their 50s back to work, to promote recruitment into the public as well as the private sector, and to tell UK Ministers that people from other countries are actually welcome here to work? Thank you.

Thank you for the questions. We are certainly looking to improve employment prospects for people who are economically inactive, particularly those aged over 50. We have seen, particularly pronounced at the end and post pandemic, a number of people who have made choices, some of those deliberate choices about wanting to get a different balance between work and life, but also a range of other people who have found themselves with a tale of long-term ill health, and other people who have acquired new and different caring responsibilities. There is a range of different reasons why people have left the labour market. Some of those people, anecdotally, are looking to come back, and that's largely driven by the cost-of-living crisis and the fact that people need to come back to work. What we want to do is to make sure that people are in the best place possible to return to the labour market and to give them the skills and the opportunity to enter the labour market for a job that they will find fulfilling and helpful with their financial challenges and opportunities.

When it comes to migration, actually, one of the few good things, I think, that were in Kwasi Kwarteng's growth plan was a different conversation about migration that would have upset lots of his own team. But, actually, we consistently made the case with the UK Government that we need a different approach to migration. For key sectors of our economy, including public services, the rhetoric and the image that the UK Government does not want people from other parts of the world to come here to work or to be part of our community—and you see this again in the current Home Secretary and the way she has spoken about people—is entirely self-defeating. We want a much more sensible approach that is driven by the needs of the economy, yes, but also driven by an approach that is decent and recognises other human beings in their basic humanity. I don't think that is always the case with the current UK Government.

Can I thank the Member for submitting today's question? As has already been outlined, there is clearly a challenge in recruitment of the workforce and the skills gap in north Wales. Indeed, at the start of this year, research in The Leader showed that nearly half of all businesses are struggling to recruit new workers, and this continues to be reiterated when meeting employers, as I'm sure you do, Minister, as well. But one of the key areas, I believe, we could be looking to focus more on is promoting the educational benefits and skills of apprenticeships. I'm sure you agree, Minister, that apprenticeships can be extremely successful career paths that, importantly, often see more skills progression and job retention than, perhaps, going to university. Of course, for north Wales, this is a great opportunity, because it's such a great place to live and to work as well. So, in light of this, Minister, what work are you undertaking with the Minister for education to ensure our future workforce are made aware of the fantastic benefits of apprenticeships that can lead to well-paid, long careers and, ultimately, help in addressing the future skills gap that we are facing?

Of course, I think this and our previous iterations of Welsh Labour-led Governments have a good record on promoting apprenticeships, not just on the numbers, but also on the quality and the completion stats. I remember Ken Skates, when he was an even younger man, as a skills Minister, and the work he was doing and the fact that our completion figures even then were much better than was being achieved by the UK Government in England, and that's a record we've continued.

Our challenge is about getting enough people to want to go into the apprenticeship route, and employers that will benefit from it as well. There is a real financial challenge in that as well. We've talked before in this Chamber about the fact that a third of our apprenticeship programme was funded by now former EU funds, and that gives us a really big challenge to get over. We've also seen rising inflation that's creating more and more pressure, also not just on apprenticeships, but on in-work training as well. A number of employers are now interested in what they can do to recognise that the future worker is largely here—your employees in 10 years' time are probably in your workforce already—and what you can do to upskill people in the workplace as well. 

I attended this morning a Skills Cymru programme. They're expecting 5,000 people towards the end of their high school career to look at future choices, and apprenticeship options and options in future skills are very much part of what they're talking about. So, there is a deliberate and purposeful conversation we're having about all routes for the future—further education, apprenticeships, other skills, and not just the university route—to not just a rewarding career in terms of the people you'll meet, but in terms of the financial rewards that are on offer as well.

Thank you for the question. Telecommunications policy is not devolved to Wales, yet the economy of north Wales benefits directly from the £56 million broadband roll-out and our £4.2 million grant to the digital signal processing centre at Bangor University, as this Welsh Government continues to step in where the UK Government has not.

Can I thank the Minister for that answer? The Minister will be aware that this is a subject that is close to my heart. For the record, Llywydd, I'll place on record my involvement as an unpaid member of the consortium at Bangor University, as mentioned by the Minister. They are determined to improve the connectivity of north Wales. Despite the responsibility for broadband sitting with the UK Government, the Tories' failure to invest properly has let north Wales down. I don't just want to see investment in making north Wales digitally connected properly; I want to see us creating and developing the next generation of world-leading technologies that improve our north Wales economy. Minister, do you share my passion for improving connectivity in the region and developing the next set and stage of technologies for connectivity, and will you commit to making this one of your priorities?

Yes, I'm more than happy to say that. It comes on the back of consistent work done across this Government in different iterations. You may or may not have heard the Deputy Minister talking earlier, but we've invested £200 million of Welsh Government funding into Superfast Cymru. That's money in an area that isn't devolved. We recognise the significant benefits of enhancing, improving and filling in gaps in what are UK responsibilities. The key part of our digital future is with public services and, indeed, in the economy. I'm very pleased to have the lead ministerial responsibility for digital services across the Government, not just in the economy, and I'll be more than happy to have a further conversation with the Member on what I think we can achieve within the Government.

The main levers to tackle cost increases on businesses, interest rates for borrowing, the tax of windfall profits and regulation of the energy market lie squarely with the UK Government. Our priority is to support businesses to decarbonise and to save, as I've mentioned in response to previous questions today. We continue to identify opportunities to redirect resources to reduce burdens on business.

Thank you very much for that response. I asked yesterday for a statement following the news that 28 jobs are in the balance in AMG Alpoco in Holyead; I've written to the Minister about that issue again today. An increase in costs, and energy costs in particular, is driving this restructuring, but, of course, Alpoco are not alone on this. Plas Farm, an ice cream and frozen yoghurt company in Anglesey, are seeing inflation adding up to 50 per cent on their costs, and they, like Alpoco, can't pass on those costs to their customers. Now, Plas Farm are expecting an increase of almost £50,000 a month in their energy bills—£50,000 a month. That raises concerns about the future of the company and the 25 staff. They are investing in solar energy, for example, but while, of course, we need to see urgent action by the UK Government, may I ask again what support the Welsh Government can provide to energy-intensive companies such as Plas Farm? Also, may I ask for an assurance that every support is being provided for the workforce of Alpoco at present? 

We are doing everything that we can with the levers that we have available to us to try to support businesses that find themselves in exactly this position. We know that there is a range of energy-intensive businesses, as I said earlier in response to your colleague Luke Fletcher, and our challenge is both wanting a settlement on UK Government support, but also what we can do to try to support those businesses as well. We don’t have the financial firepower to do everything that we’d want to with businesses that face a very difficult future.

We have got a number of resource efficiency advisers available through the Business Wales service, to try to help businesses to understand what their energy needs are and if there is help available. We are also, as I said, looking at what we can do in the near future, and I expect to be making a statement in the coming weeks about how we think that we can help more businesses to take advantage of the help that is available and expand that help, to try to make sure that we decarbonise and de-risk future energy supply.

But you can’t get away from the significant scale of the energy crisis and what it is doing to businesses. I’m sure that if every Member stood up, they could give, as you have done, a list of businesses—viable businesses that employ people on decent terms—that are facing the prospect of not being able to keep all of those people on board in the very near future, or indeed the potential of those businesses not existing at all. It sets out the scale of the crisis that we do face.

It’s why we’ll carry on doing what we can, in terms of wanting to make sure that viable businesses have a good future as well, but it’s also about reiterating our call for the UK Government to finally do something that will provide some stability in the market and will provide some stability for the future costs of people. And if that were to happen, we would be supportive of doing that. But, as I say, that is largely unfinished, and I look forward with some trepidation to the Halloween budget and what that will really deliver for businesses and households.

I thank the Minister.

The next item, first of all, is a motion to suspend Standing Orders to allow the next item to be debated. I call on the Minister for Climate Change to move the motion formally.

Formally.

The proposal therefore is to suspend Standing Orders. Does any Member object to doing so? No, there is no objection. Therefore, the motion is agreed.

That allows us to move on to item 3, which is the legislative consent motion on the Energy Prices Bill. I call on the Minister for Climate Change to move the motion—Julie James.

Diolch, Llywydd. I move the motion. The majority of the provisions in the Energy Prices Bill are reserved. The provisions within devolved competence with which we are concerned today are about the powers of the Secretary of State to give support for meeting energy costs. The situation with the UK parliamentary timetable on this Bill is clearly out of our hands. This has meant that the Senedd has not been afforded the opportunity to carry out meaningful scrutiny of the memorandum laid yesterday, and of the Bill.

I am pleased, though, that we have had the opportunity to discuss what is a vital measure towards the cost-of-living crisis at a time of national crisis. The Welsh Government has long been calling for more to be done to support domestic and non-domestic customers with rising energy costs. We welcomed the announcement of a two-year package for households, and called for the same scale of support to be made available for non-domestic customers.

Rather than extending the support for non-domestic customers, the Chancellor limited the support for households to just six months. There is no justification for this decision, given the cost of energy is expecting to remain extremely high for a number of years to come. The credible fiscal step needed from the Chancellor was to fund this support through a windfall tax across the energy-producing sector. There is no justification for these windfall gains not to be targeted to fund the necessary measures of support for those that need it most across Wales and the rest of the United Kingdom. I will continue to call on the UK Government to put in place a long-term package of support, funded in a progressive way, to help mitigate the impact of high energy prices.

The Bill before us today is important in that it establishes a legislative framework that allows for a scheme to reduce the price of electricity and gas across Great Britain. This is a positive step, as it will insulate customers from the factors pushing energy prices to such high levels. We agree with the principle in the Bill of energy suppliers delivering savings directly via the billing system. This is an efficient recourse to deliver a scheme, as the licensed suppliers have the expertise and systems to implement the policy as set out. We further welcome the requirement on licensed suppliers to become party to the scheme as soon as is practicable.

As mentioned earlier, the majority of the provisions in the Bill are reserved. The provisions within devolved competence with which we are concerned today are primarily about the powers of the Secretary of State to give support for meeting energy costs. Regarding the devolution of constitutional issues, the Bill intrudes upon devolved matters by conferring functions on the Secretary of State in devolved areas. As such, this approach is inconsistent with our principles for consenting to UK Government Bills. I have therefore called on the UK Government to consult on any measures that impact on devolved areas. While I acknowledge that taking action forward on energy prices is a matter of urgency, implementation must be done through effective consultation to ensure that the responsibilities of this Senedd are respected.

It is important to note that we are not transferring powers through this Bill, but the Bill does confer functions on the Secretary of State in devolved areas. As such—

Minister, will you take an intervention?

Yes, certainly.

I’m grateful to you, and I’m grateful to you for bringing this forward so quickly. You said in your introduction that the Government hadn’t had sight of this. Just for clarity, because of the matters you’re discussing in terms of transfer of functions to the Secretary of State, can you confirm that the Welsh Government had no sight of this, and that Welsh Government officials had no sight of this legislation prior to it being received and published?

Yes, that’s right. The haste with which the Bill has appeared on the parliamentary timetable has meant that we had no foresight of it.

As I was just going to go on to say, our Cabinet principles do however set out situations where it may be appropriate to make provision in a UK Bill to enable pragmatic solutions to be reached in a timely fashion, while simultaneously respecting the legislative competence of the Senedd through the legislative consent process. These principles are clearly relevant in this case.

I consider the support that this Bill provides as important and we cannot afford to delay energy support to people who desperately need it this winter. Clauses 13 and 14 concentrate on giving the Secretary of State powers to give support to people in meeting energy costs. These clauses also enable the Government to support households and non-domestic customers. While the UK Government intends to deliver most of its support through licensed suppliers of electricity and gas, it has made provision through clause 15 enabling the making of regulations about the role of other bodies, including local authorities, in giving support for energy costs. This is an important provision as it gives a role for other designated bodies to provide support for meeting energy costs. We should not be expected to cover the costs of local authorities in providing this support. I have sought assurances from the Secretary of State that the cost of delivery will be provided in full by the UK Government to implement this in Wales. Secondary legislation will set out the details for these arrangements. I’ve called on the UK Government to ensure that any organisation administering the scheme, including those carrying out this function on behalf of local authorities, will receive all the funding required to carry out the duty.

Clause 19 provides for the Secretary of State to have enabling powers to impose requirements on persons to whom energy price support is provided so that they pass through to benefit the end user. This is crucial in protecting energy consumers from intermediaries who might otherwise fail to pass on this support. Some local authorities may need to contract this work, and this needs to be explicitly permitted to ensure effective delivery of the scheme in Wales. Finally, clause 22 gives the Secretary of State powers to give directions to holders of energy licences in response to the energy crisis or in connection with the Bill or things done under it.

So, Llywydd, in drawing to a conclusion, I do recommend that Members support the legislative consent motion in respect of the energy prices Bill so that the people of Wales can effectively receive financial support with the high energy costs this winter. Diolch.

Thank you for the opportunity to say a few words on this latest LCM. This is the twenty-seventh LCM during the sixth Senedd. Contrast that with the fourth Senedd, when we received just eight LCMs during the whole of that Senedd term.

This is an LCM on a very important Bill, but it was laid just yesterday before the Senedd and we are being asked to vote on it today. Now, this isn’t just a constitutional matter. The constitutional issue is very important, of course—that the Senedd legislates within devolved powers. But it’s more important than that. I don’t trust the Government in Westminster to look after those people who are in need. I don’t trust the Conservatives to do what is right in the long term. This Bill doesn’t include a windfall tax. It doesn’t mean that the energy companies are taking responsibility. What it does is it pushes back onto energy users the responsibility in the long term. Yesterday, it was laid. Today, we are being asked to vote on this matter without any scrutiny at all; no opportunity for committees to scrutinise the LCM, no opportunity to table amendments, no opportunities to raise issues—and there are issues with this Bill—no scrutiny at all, if truth be told. A debate lasting three quarters of an hour—and it doesn't appear as if many Members will take part in this debate—on a Wednesday afternoon. And we know, regardless—perhaps this is the reason why many people aren't contributing—that this LCM will pass, because Labour and the Conservatives always vote hand in hand on the majority of these LCMs.

What I would say is that this is not the way to legislate. We need time for scrutiny if we are to pass good legislation that is fit for purpose—  

Of course, if the Government came forward with legislation, you and the Conservatives would vote against it, and it would go down. I think that this is a means by which to achieve, meaning that it will happen. If you and the Conservatives could start voting for Government legislation, it might be easier to do it. 

The purpose of a legislative Senedd is to pass legislation, Mike. There's no point in us otherwise, and we have to, in the set-up of the Senedd—. The Government has to discuss and debate with the opposition parties if they want their legislation to pass. That is the very purpose of a Senedd, a Parliament, that works in collaboration. 

There are problems with this Bill. A House of Lords committee has raised issues with this Bill; regarding one of the clauses we are being asked to consent to, clause 22, they are firmly of the view that it's inappropriate to give that power to the Secretary of State. It will give the Secretary of State power to override primary legislation, and to overrule the regulator, Ofgem. I’m concerned, Llywydd, that the Senedd today is being asked to consent to an LCM that we know little about, that we have not properly scrutinised, and yet it will be passed on a nod.  

As I said, this isn't just a constitutional issue. It is important that we get legislation like this right to help the people of our nation through a situation that is so appallingly difficult. Thank you. 

Now, this LCM relates to landmark legislation, and it's legislation that needs to be enacted quickly. The Russian invasion of Ukraine has, without doubt, led to the price of oil and gas surging around the world. Thanks to the UK Government, consumers now will be having help with their bills. These new emergency powers will ensure that consumers across the country, from Anglesey to Aberdeen, Conwy to Cornwall, receive help with their energy bills this winter. Without this legislation, businesses and consumers will be left facing increasing financial turmoil. Energy bills were estimated to increase around £6,500 before the UK Government stepped in, and now they're capped at a lower figure of £2,500. This, obviously, will help.

For businesses, this would be a catastrophe. In Aberconwy, I am seeing my hoteliers facing up to a 532 per cent increase in energy bills, and a local butcher—you'll all have had Edwards sausages of Conwy; I hope you have—were confronted with a devastating rise from £129,000 to the latest £782,000, and I understand it's gone significantly up since that, when looking at new tariffs. Thanks to the UK Government, prices for businesses will be capped at £211 per megawatt hour for electricity, and £75 per megawatt for gas. This has reduced the price per megawatt hour for non-domestic customers by nearly 65 per cent for electricity, and 147 per cent for gas. 

Our businesses have faced a turbulent last two years as a result of the pandemic, with many businesses now having to pay off pandemic-era loans and some of them had fallen behind with rent arrears. The UK Government's support will be fundamental in supporting our businesses to continue operating during the forthcoming winter months, and provide much-needed financial relief. And, as business and energy Secretary, the Right Honourable Jacob Rees-Mogg said:

'Businesses and consumers across the UK should pay a fair price for energy.... That is why we have stepped in today with exceptional powers that will not only ensure vital support reaches households and businesses this winter but will transform the United Kingdom into a nation that offers secure, affordable and fairly-priced home-grown energy for all.' 

By supporting clauses 13 and 14, yes, we will be giving power to the Secretary of State, the go-ahead to, for example, provide support for meeting costs related to the use of energy; provide support for meeting costs related to the supply of energy; and enable or encourage the efficient use of energy. So, I see no reason why there needs to be a fuss on this particular LCM. Even Alan Brown MP, SNP, stated on Monday, and I quote:

'I agree that those measures and principles are required for energy security and to be part of net zero transition.'

The Right Honourable Graham Stuart:

'Clause 19 ensures that the support schemes...reach their intended beneficiaries. The requirement to pass on energy price support will help to ensure that tenants and other end users receive the support they need.'

We are facing a global energy crisis that has been exacerbated by Russia's illegal invasion of Ukraine. By supporting this LCM, we will be helping people, businesses, charities and the public sector across the UK with their energy bills, with a secure legislative footing. The Minister for climate change, the Right Honourable Graham Stuart has rightly thanked His Majesty's opposition, and other parties, for their constructive engagement so far. So, like yourself, Minister—

Would you take an intervention?

Yes, of course.

Thank you. You and your party colleagues and ourselves, have been very critical of the Welsh Government when it comes to condensing the scrutiny period for the single-use plastics Bill. You were quite rightly vocal that we weren't given enough time; we were only given three, four, five, six weeks to scrutinise that piece of legislation. Why is it therefore that you're happy with no scrutiny at all on this particular piece of legislation and just a matter of hours to read it?

With all due respect, this is emergency legislation. We have a war situation, and that is really, really—. We don't even know what's going to happen now, where things may get even worse than what we're facing at the moment. When faced with a warlike situation that we have, when faced with such an emergency, it is vital that this institution plays a responsible part, and so I have no hesitation whatsoever in supporting the Minister, in saying, 'We need this to go ahead, and we need it to go ahead ASAP'. Diolch.

I can't understand Janet Finch-Saunders's argument that this is emergency legislation; we've known about the spike in energy prices since the end of February, so this is not an emergency.

Now, nobody would argue against the proposal to give immediate relief for the massive spike in energy prices for both households and businesses, but the legislative framework proposed by the UK Government is not a sustainable solution. The idea that this is a landmark piece of legislation is really laughable. We really have to see this through the lens of the net-zero obligations that we have and the climate emergency that is going to descend on all of us. I don't see anything tangible in this proposal to encourage energy generators to invest in more renewable energy, to accelerate the transition away from gas. In fact, I see an attack on renewable energy generators, ensuring that they have to contribute more and don't benefit so much from the contracts that they have entered into. But, as the Minister has said in her explanatory memorandum, we do indeed need energy market reform, including on the way we fund renewables. So, I recognise that you have acknowledged that, but the problem here is that there's nothing to de-couple the cost to consumers of energy from the latest most expensive spot price of gas, which is how Ofgem sets these prices. And there's nothing to encourage people to invest their profits, including the oil and gas companies' profits, into the renewable transition that we all need to make.

So, I wondered if the Minister, in her reply, could tell us what discussions, if any, you've had with the UK Government—clearly, not about this specific piece of legislation, which just landed on your lap—which are aligned to both our and their net-zero obligations. And I thank the Member Rhys ab Owen for highlighting the concern of the House of Lords about section 22, which is the power to overrule Ofgem. The whole thing is really great cause for concern. I'm not planning to vote against it, because I know that households and businesses rely on this, but we've got to have something of a plan for the future, and we can't go on like this. This is a real pull-together just at the final minute—perhaps to distract from other things going on.

The Minister for Climate Change to respond, Julie James.

Diolch, Llywydd. I'm very grateful to Members who've contributed to the debate. I share the Member's concerns about the process that's led us to where we are now, and I do share—as I shared, in fact, for the single-use plastics Bill—the concern about the lack of scrutiny. And that's not something that I welcome either here or at the UK level. But we knew about this the night before. It was introduced on 12 October, so this really isn't any scrutiny at all. We certainly didn't have a draft Bill or anything else.

We do understand the urgency. I don't agree with Janet's summation of the level of urgency, but we do understand that there is a level of urgency in getting support for customers that can be rolled out from November. We would much prefer, though, the United Kingdom Government, as Jenny and others have pointed out, to have realised that this was happening considerably earlier in the year, when everybody else realised it, and have done something, rather than having a ridiculous leadership competition all summer, with the current Prime Minister doing God knows what, instead of stepping up to his responsibilities.

Nevertheless, we are where we are, and if we do not consent to this, then there is a real danger that the people of Wales will be left out from being able to benefit from the scheme. So, I am recommending that we consent to the legislation, although there is considerable reluctance because of the way that the Bill is organised. But, nevertheless, we're not prepared to put ourselves in a position where the people of Wales could not receive the support that the UK Government is proposing; it's very important that they do so.

I just want to correct something that Janet said. There is not a cap of £2,500 on energy. I think it's really important that people don't think that, no matter how much they use, there is somehow a cap. It's actually an average cost, it is not a cap, and it's very important that people understand that. Many people will face bills of more than £2,500 over the winter.

Will you take an intervention?

Of course.

NHS Wales, despite having the funding from UK Government, will still have an energy gap to fill of £100 million, nearly—£90 million to £100 million, I heard last week. Is that true?

Yes, it is indeed true. So, this is a sticking plaster over an enormous wound, and it will cause real problems across public services, as well as for domestic customers. Nevertheless, it's important that what help there is available does get to the people and businesses of Wales, and so we are recommending consent.

I am however—I just want to reiterate, because I think it's very important—calling on the UK Government to consult on any measures that impact on devolved areas. There is a fundamental failure in the current energy market, which this Bill does not fix; the UK Government really must step up to that plate. But, nevertheless, Llywydd, and with a degree of reluctance that you can hear, I do recommend to the Senedd that we agree the LCM, because of the urgent need to get the help to the people of Wales. Diolch.

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? Yes, there are objections. And therefore, voting will be deferred until voting time.

No topical questions were received today.

And we now move to the 90-second statements, and the first of those is from Jack Sargeant.

Diolch, Llywydd. My community is built on manufacturing, and we are proud of the products we produce and the skills of our working people who make them. Last month marked an important birthday for manufacturing in Deeside—we celebrated 30 happy years of Toyota engine manufacture on Deeside industrial estate. Toyota Manufacturing UK's Deeside site directly employs more than 600 people and supports many more jobs in its network of local and national suppliers. Llywydd, I'm extremely grateful that the First Minister was able to visit to mark this very special birthday, and we look forward to many more years of high-tech engine manufacture at this important site. 

To finish, we must build on the success of our manufacturing excellence in Alyn and Deeside and we must commit to investing in the skills and technology required for the future alongside our industrial partners. And finally, a very happy birthday—pen-blwydd hapus, Toyota. Diolch.

This week marks the fifth year of Love Our Colleges Week, a campaign which highlights the amazing and transformational work further education colleges do day in and day out. The celebrations this year will focus on staff, students and skills. Keeping this in mind, I'd like to draw your attention today to the life-changing opportunities on offer at our colleges to international exchange programmes, both for learners and staff.

For learners, overseas experiences will broaden their horizons and raise their aspirations, making a positive contribution to their progress through education and on to future employment. One of the most important aspects of these international exchanges is that they offer equal access to all young people within our colleges, regardless of their background. Further education staff have opportunities to share best practice with colleagues overseas, participate in training or job shadowing, as well as sharing lessons learned with their organisations in Wales.

I am pleased to say my local college, Coleg Gwent, are actively involved in several of the programmes. ColegauCymru leads on the development of these exciting overseas opportunities, and their consortium projects for international mobility would have enabled over 3,000 learners and 490 staff to work, train and volunteer overseas while gaining insights into different cultures and languages that they may not otherwise have had the chance to explore.

As yesterday was World Menopause Day, I'd like to take this opportunity—and I thank you, Llywydd, for accepting the 90-second statement—to talk about menopause; something that, as women, we are going or will go through at some point in our lives. Looking at the men in this Chamber, you're very lucky that it's not something that you're going to go through, but it's incredibly important that everyone understands the issues and struggles that women, some more than others, will face when it comes to dealing with menopause. 

It is important that more awareness of what women are going through, and the struggles they face and the struggles they get in receiving treatment, is known and that this Government and the UK Government make strides towards ensuring that awareness and understanding of what half the population go through, an awareness of menopause, becomes the norm and commonplace in our workplaces across Wales. 

There are over 10 million over-50s at work in the UK today, a third of the workforce, including 4.4 million aged 50 to 64. The average age for reaching menopause is 51; although, in my family, it's the early 40s, and, I'm sure, for others. So, many of us, 4.4 million and more, will be women transitioning through the menopause, making this a key issue for the modern workplace. This is why it's so crucial that we see the promotion of the menopause in the workplace toolkit. The toolkit can provide an insight into the way menopause impacts women in the workplace, what is menopause, how menopause impacts women in the workplace, why it's important for employers, and what they can do to help.

So, I hope that, with World Menopause Day being yesterday, it'll be the last one where women suffer in silence, and, instead, we can create an open conversation on the issue in Wales. And, as a Senedd, I hope that we can lead the way on this.

Thank you, all.

Item 6 this afternoon is the debate on the Climate Change, Environment and Infrastructure Committee report, 'Renewable energy in Wales'. I call on the Chair of the committee to move the motion—Llyr Gruffydd.

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. It's an honour to present this report of the Climate Change, Environment, and Infrastructure Committee, because at the beginning of the sixth Senedd the committee agreed to undertake a short inquiry into renewable energy, recognising the crucial role of renewables in tackling the climate emergency. Now, we looked at what the Welsh Government is doing and what more needs to be done in order to ramp up renewable energy development in Wales, and when we started our inquiry at the beginning of the year, we could never have predicted the severity of the current global energy crisis or the impact that that would have not only on Wales, but also further afield.

So, as the domestic response to the crisis continues to unfold, we know it could, of course, set us on course to either make or break our commitment to reach net zero by 2050. The package of measures announced by the UK Government last month may provide some reprieve for businesses and households, although, following Monday's announcement, this reprieve may actually be very short lived. But the decision to lift the fracking ban and to accelerate North sea oil and gas production fills those of us who are committed to tackling climate change with dread. These decisions less than a year—less than a year—after the pledges made at COP26 are, quite frankly, shameful.

Action to address the energy crisis and improve domestic energy security must not come at the expense of the planet. Time is rapidly running out to avert a climate catastrophe. The energy and climate crises share a common root: fossil fuels. They also share a common solution: renewable energy. And the case to accelerate renewable energy development, in my view, has never been stronger.

So, our inquiry took place not long after the Welsh Government published the outcome of its deep-dive. The purpose, of course, of the deep-dive was to identify the current barriers to accelerating development and the steps needed to address them. The deep-dive’s recommendations were well received by stakeholders. But there was also a sense that, in some areas, they only scrape the surface.

Many of the barriers identified by the deep-dive are not new, nor are the Welsh Government’s promises of action to address them. The Welsh Government’s 2012 energy strategy set out a range of actions to improve the planning and consenting process and grid infrastructure in Wales as well—key barriers to development. A decade later, it’s making the same promises. As we enter a critical time in the fight against climate change, now more than ever the Welsh Government really needs to knuckle down and deliver on these.

In our report, we made 17 recommendations, all of which the Welsh Government accepted, or at least accepted in principle. At a glance, that's a seemingly positive response. But, on further analysis, of course, it leaves us questioning whether the Welsh Government has truly grasped the urgency with which it needs to act. The response is peppered with terms like 'continuing to work on', 'continuing to consider options', 'ongoing discussions' and 'exploring potential'. Now, of course, we understand that breaking down long-standing barriers won’t happen overnight. But, with development in Wales slowing down, we need to see results from the deep-dive, and we need to see those quickly.

In our report, we called for the Welsh Government to publish a detailed action plan setting out how it intends to take forward the deep-dive’s recommendations, including timelines for delivery. The thinking behind this was to ensure full transparency, and to facilitate and support scrutiny. In response, the Welsh Government committed to reporting to the Senedd biannually on progress towards implementation, which we very much welcome. The first of these reports was published earlier this month, and, as a committee, we’ll be keeping a close eye on progress throughout the remainder of this Senedd.

As I’ve already mentioned, one of the key barriers to development in Wales is, of course, the grid. For over a decade, there have been loud and persistent calls for action from Governments to address grid constraints. Despite this, limited progress has been made, and Wales is a long way off from a grid that's ready and able to support a rapid transition to renewables. We know the Welsh Government has limited levers at its disposal to ensure grid improvements. Control over the regulatory regime governing the grid and access to funding remain, of course, with the UK Government. In its recent report on renewable energy in Wales, the Commons’ Welsh Affairs Committee raised concerns that the UK Government hasn’t yet grasped the severity of grid constraints on this side of the border, and, really, this is nothing short of alarming. The challenges grid constraints pose for development and for Wales’s wider decarbonisation ambitions means this mustn’t be allowed to continue.

Recommendations 6 and 7 reflect our view that the Welsh Government must step up and do more to ensure that Westminster fully understand Wales's current and future grid infrastructure needs. So, Minister, your response to our report refers to your meeting with UK Ministers in June, when you raised issues around the grid. Maybe you can tell us in your response whether you think the penny has dropped and are they actually taking these issues seriously.

We're encouraged by the Welsh Government's future energy grid project, which seeks to proactively influence future grid investment in Wales. The Welsh Government has told us that the action plan produced by the project will set out actions for networks, for Ofgem and the Welsh Government,

'to enable optimal, long-term whole system network planning and operation.'

Now, this all sounds very positive. But, of course, and here's a potential stumbling block, there will also be actions for the UK Government. So, Minister, how confident are you that the UK Government be willing to deliver on those actions? And what happens if it simply refuses to play ball?

Finally on the grid, Minister, you've set up a grid working group to consider whether your initial proposal for a Wales energy systems architect is feasible. Maybe you could tell us when you're expecting to have a definitive answer on this.

Moving on to another key barrier to development: the consenting and licensing regime. Stakeholders told us that a well-resourced, streamlined and efficient consenting regime is essential to support the growth of the renewable energy sector. The current regime, of course, falls short of this. We hear about massive cuts in local planning authorities' budgets, and inadequate resources for NRW, causing long and sometimes costly delays to projects. Of course, concerns over funding for planning authorities and NRW are not new, but if the Welsh Government is to achieve its ambition for renewables, it cannot brush aside these concerns any longer, and recommendation 9 in our report seeks to address this. So, in your recent report, Minister, on implementation of the deep dive's recommendations, you say that further work is needed to review Natural Resources Wales's future resource needs. How long will we have to wait for the outcome of that work, and can we expect to see any increase in NRW's budget next year as a result?

Specifically on planning authorities—two straight questions here. Do they have the necessary resources to cope with demand on their services? And if not, then what are we doing about it? Stakeholders told us that bolstering capacity and resource will only go so far to improve the consenting process. Ultimately, legislative changes are needed. And we are pleased, therefore, that the First Minister announced a Welsh infrastructure consenting Bill in his July legislative statement. In scrutinising the Bill, we'll no doubt be looking to ensure it strikes the right balance between furthering Wales's renewable energy ambitions and also protecting our increasingly fragile environment.

Finally on consenting, the Welsh Government has made clear its position that there should be full devolution of energy consents. So, Minister, is this something that you're actively pursuing with the UK Government? And if so, have there been any glimmers of hope? Maybe you could tell us. 

The final part of our report focuses on opportunities to scale up community and local energy. The growth in renewables we are calling for must benefit communities across Wales. Communities mustn't just have a say in projects, they must be active stakeholders, reaping the social and economic benefits from the transition to renewables. Stakeholders told us, to achieve this, the Welsh Government must do more to incentivise and encourage shared ownership, and recommendations 12 and 13 in our report aim to address this. The Welsh Government has responded positively to these recommendations and, since the publication of our report, has issued guidance on shared ownership. It's also committed to routine monitoring and reporting on the uptake of shared ownership for energy projects, which, of course, again, is something that the committee welcomes.

Finally, I'd like to pick up on recommendation 17. This called for an update on Ynni Cymru, recognising its role in helping to support the expansion of community-owned renewable energy particularly. We had hoped that that recommendation would help answer some questions surrounding Ynni Cymru, but that wasn't the case. Although the Welsh Government accepted our recommendation, the response was simply, 'Watch this space'. So, Minister, we understand that you've established a renewable energy developer interim board to consider proposals for a development company. Are we right in thinking that this company and Ynni Cymru would be one and the same? It would be helpful if you could clarify that for the committee. And is there anything more that you can tell us today about progress towards the creation of Ynni Cymru?

Llywydd, the committee's conclusions are clear. We have to seize the plentiful opportunities that we have here in Wales for renewable energy development. We have to break down the long-standing barriers that are holding back development. And we must do so whilst of course bringing our communities with us in the knowledge that they will reap the benefits. Now, more than ever, we need to focus on the future and not the past, and I hope it's a future of secure and affordable renewable energy, and not destructive fossil fuels.

I thank my committee Chair—our committee Chair—for leading off this debate. The following quote from our cross-party committee report does actually rightly highlight the Welsh Labour Government failure to unleash the renewable energy potential of Wales:

'The Welsh Government’s 2012 energy strategy promised a range of actions to improve the planning and consenting process, and grid infrastructure in Wales, amongst other things. A decade later, the same promises are being made. Now is the time for the Welsh Government to deliver on its promises, and urgently.'

In 2012, Minister, your Government promised to review and improve the planning and consenting regimes associated with development. Yet 10 years later, the Welsh Government should be more—. Oh, sorry. In your deep-dive recommendations, you make the exact same promise, which you refer to in your response to recommendation 2. So, I suppose the question is: if it didn't happen then, what confidence can we have that it's going to happen and you're not just dragging your feet?

Similarly, whilst I welcomed the Welsh Government's consideration of recommendation 3 and implementing the committee report's call for more stretching targets, this should not be a distraction from the direction of travel we must take. We need to reverse the serious decline that we've all seen, and we know it's happening, over recent years. As the Institute for Wales Affairs told us, 'The Welsh Government should be more concerned with delivery and avoid tinkering with targets just for the sake of it.'

I know I stand here too often and hear blame directed at the UK Government. In your response to recommendation 1 in particular, we have to remember it was your Welsh Government that decided to scrap the vital business rate grants for small hydropower schemes, risking the decimation of a viable local industry, and this has affected a number of my farmers in Aberconwy who, in all good faith, took on these schemes, only to find then that they were penalised for doing so. This has left companied like North Wales Hydro Power with a more than 8,000 per cent increase in business rates, described by the industry as being very short-sighted of this Government. Once again, I reiterate my call for the Welsh Government to reverse this hugely damaging decision, and I would welcome, Minister, if you would respond to that particular point, whether you have considered it, and that you may actually look to support those trying to do their bit to help us with renewable energy.

Of course, one area where major change could be enacted at a much faster pace is out at sea. According to RWE Renewables UK, marine energy developments in Welsh waters

'face increased consenting risk and a competitive disadvantage'

compared to those elsewhere in the UK. The Crown Estate and Joint Nature Conservation Committee referred to the need to balance accelerating and expanding offshore renewables to achieve net zero, whilst also protecting the marine environment and halting biodiversity decline, alongside the IWA calls for a clearer and more defined consenting process to ensure the timely deployment of marine renewables. I note that you have explained that the identification of marine strategic resource areas should be completed in 2023. So, as RSPB, the Marine Conservation Society and a number of others have made clear here, it is time now to create an even better platform for marine developments and nature, by creating a national marine development plan.

Another key issue—

Will you take an intervention?

Yes, sure.

I'm glad to hear you making this case—I think it's an important case to be made—but, of course, what those organisations also have in common is that they support the devolution of the Crown Estate to Wales, which would provide a financial boost for those developments. I presume you will also support that now.

Yes, of course.

Another key issue stifling the expansion of renewable energy is the lack of adequate grid infrastructure, and I have to say, every time I've met with members of the industry, they actually cite this as being a really big issue, a big barrier. You've accepted recommendation 7 only in principle, and at a time when the House of Commons Welsh Affairs Committee suggests that the UK Government might be unaware of the severity of grid-capacity issues, the Welsh Government must demonstrate greater leadership and proactively engage with UK Government at the very highest level to ensure that Wales's current and future grid infrastructure requirements are fully understood and met. As such, there can be no harm in you raising the crisis—and will you do so, Minister—at the next inter-ministerial group for net zero, energy and climate change.

Similarly, I believe you should heed the calls from the 'North Wales Energy Strategy' to look at establishing microgrid trials, and a good place to start those would be in north Wales. This would be a far better use of taxpayers' money than setting up Government-owned energy companies, which I believe is a misguided idea. It has already been tried in Bristol and it then succeeded in having dire consequences for local taxpayers.

Can you conclude now, please, Janet?

With the Russian war in Ukraine having made almost all constituents realise the need for Wales and the UK to produce more renewable energy, now is the time for the Welsh Government to supercharge some action. I am confident that there are more areas upon which we agree to enable the whole Senedd to co-operate to see Wales achieve its energy potential. Diolch.

First, I'd just like to declare that my partner is an adviser to Bute Energy and I'm a shareholder in Awel Aman Tawe community renewable energy scheme. 

We really do have to step up to the plate here, because the crisis that had just started when we started taking evidence gave us—it's a crisis, but it's also an opportunity. We have to focus on this and really accelerate the pace of change. Ken Skates spoke earlier about his concern for swimming pools in his constituency, and we had a response from the economy Minister, but I really didn't hear anything urgent in his response, although I fully acknowledge that this falls within the remit of the Deputy Minister for Arts and Sport, who wasn't in the Chamber earlier on today. I just think this is one of the things where we will be completely overtaken by events unless we do something on it now.

So, we have to look at what other parts of the United Kingdom are already doing to safeguard their swimming pools. For example, one of the leaders in this is Narberth Energy, which has one of the oldest renewable-heated community pools in the UK. Swim Narberth is a community-owned pool, run for the benefit of its local community, supported by Narberth Energy, a community benefit society, which organised a share offer to raise funds to install a 200 kW biomass boiler and a 50 kW solar photovoltaic array back in 2015. Well done them for having the prescience to do that, because so many other swimming pools are still reliant on gas for heating their pools, and I really fear for them all. We cannot have the next generation not being able to swim because they simply haven't got safe facilities to learn how to do it.

So, there are multiple other excellent examples of how to do it. Swimming pools tend to be stand-alone buildings with nice big roofs, which are bound to be able to have south-facing arrays of solar panels on them. They also tend to be buildings that have sufficient space for air or ground-source heat pumps and yet I wonder how many of these have already happened in Wales. In Scotland, for example, we've got roof and wall insulation and heat recovery units in a swimming pool in Forres in Scotland, complementing the solar array they've also got, and making for an efficient pool filtration system. These are the most obvious things that need to happen if we're going to save our swimming pools. In Ayrshire, the only open-air freshwater pool in Scotland is heated using ground-source heat pumps, part funded by ScottishPower's green energy trust. This was reopened in 2017, just using these ground-source heat pumps. Similarly, in Skipton, there's a swimming pool using air-source heat pumps for both of their pools and the showers, as well as heat recovery technology, and solar PVs are already on the site. In Oxford, you've got the largest outdoor swimming pool in the UK using water-source heat pumps. These really are things that we need to look at as a matter of urgency or we will simply lose all our pools.

We clearly also need to fix the grid—which we've talked about, and which has been mentioned already by previous speakers—but we also need to insist that people who are putting tiles on their roofs are thinking about solar panels at the same time. I cannot believe the number of people in my constituency who are fixing their roofs while the sun is still shining but haven't even considered adding solar arrays onto their south-facing roof at the same time, because obviously, a lot of the cost is involved in just putting up the scaffolding and getting the workmen on site. So, we really have to start thinking differently about this. This crisis has to be an opportunity to look at everything that we're doing. We need to ensure that we have solar panels on all our south-facing roofs with batteries to go with them, so that people can use the energy from the solar power when they actually need it, which is when they come home in the evening and the sun has gone down. We have to change completely.

Jenny, can you conclude now, please? Thank you. Delyth Jewell.

Thank you Deputy Presiding Officer. This debate is exceptionally timely. The cost-of-living crisis is causing real pain to ordinary people on a day-to-day basis, as is raised in the Senedd, and at a time of climate and nature emergencies and of course increasing international conflict. In several ways, these challenges that face our planet, challenges that affect everyone, albeit unequally, are all underlined by a common theme, namely energy. The climate emergency has been caused in many ways by human behaviour through the unsustainable use of energy—in other words, the burning of fossil fuels since the industrial revolution. The cost-of-living crisis has intensified as a result of high energy bills, and the war in Ukraine, along with the international community's response to that war, is characterised by conflict based on energy supply.

Thousands upon thousands of households here are facing appalling conditions over the winter, and the new Chancellor in Westminster is cutting the period during which support will be available. Businesses along with people's health and well-being are all in the balance, and to make things worse, there is a warning of blackouts on the coldest days. History, Deputy Presiding Officer, is repeating itself. The major powers in global politics are in conflict; there are tensions between the world's major players, and at home, we are facing a domestic crisis. As has been said already, Wales is in a particularly vulnerable position as a result of our housing stock that is so energy inefficient, and as a result of the poverty that has blighted our communities for decades. Our people will now experience these crises with particular severity.

That picture, Dirprwy Lywydd, I know is bleak, but I think what keeps coming up in this debate is that it need not be that way. Wales is a net exporter of energy and the potential for renewable energy development is enormous. The current crises just make the case for this shift all the more urgent. Beyond the application of energy necessities like electricity, warmth, food production, transport, the question of control over energy resources has also been brought into sharper focus in recent years. I note that Alun Davies has made this point. From questions surrounding a lack of necessity, over powers over the grid, over larger energy projects, over the Crown Estate in Wales, all of these factors have seriously hampered our ability to deliver Wales's energy needs, to respond to climate change and reduce our dependency on fossil fuels.

Whenever we have these debates, the point is made that Wales's history was one, in so many ways, that was characterised by exploitation and poverty. Those things defined the era of coal; we have to make sure that the future is different. The committee was clear, as am I, that the Welsh Government can do more to boost renewable energy production in Wales, to make sure that the control over our own energy system is stronger. Limited progress has been made. Wales is a long way off still, though, from a grid that is ready and able to support a rapid transition to renewables. We're no closer to devolved powers over the Crown Estate. I would urge the Welsh Government to show that increased ambition, because of all of these crises that are facing us, to do all it can to ensure that Wales's current and future grid infrastructure requirements are fully met. When we have a Government response to the debate, it would be really useful to have an update on any developments that have come about in terms of devolving powers over the Crown Estate to Wales.

I know that we are all alive to the need to respond to both the climate and nature crises in ways that are interlinked, and this is something that has certainly come up in our evidence as well. I'll end with this, Dirprwy Lywydd. We need to balance the need to accelerate and expand offshore renewables and achieving net zero as soon as we can with protecting marine environments and halting biodiversity decline. So, it would be good if we could have some detail on this, because all of these crises are interlinked in the way that they're hitting us, but the way that we need to respond to them as much as possible needs to be interlinked as well. Diolch yn fawr.

Reading through the report of the committee—I'm very grateful to the Chair of the committee for his introduction this afternoon—and reading through the Government response, my overwhelming feeling was that there wasn't a great deal of difference between the two, that there's a great deal of shared ground, particularly in terms of ambition and vision, between both the Government and the committee. That, of course, is something to be welcomed. However, in reading through both, I also felt that both were somewhat unsatisfactory in different ways. Let me explain why I think that.

If I look back over the period of devolved Government in Wales, there are things that we've done very, very well, and there are other things where we've done less well, and that's the nature of governance, of course. I think energy is one of those policy areas where we haven't succeeded over the last two decades or so, and I believe it's something where we can learn lessons. I'm glad that the First Minister has taken his seat for this debate, because I'm going to congratulate him on a decision that he made—he looks even more worried now. [Laughter.] He is beginning to wish he'd gone for a cup of coffee.

But when I was an energy Minister some years ago, I was one of three energy Ministers in the Cabinet. There was myself, there was the economy Minister and the First Minister at the time. All had responsibility for energy, and it would surprise nobody in this Chamber or elsewhere that the three of us together achieved nothing, that we didn't deliver, because we had a fragmented approach, and we had Ministers competing, if you like, with each other, rather than working together. So, I think bringing together the responsibility under a single Minister and changing the machinery of Government to reflect that is an important decision to make, and it's an important way of driving forward policy. I welcome the commitment that the Minister herself has made to this. I accept the points that she's made in an earlier debate, and have been made elsewhere, about the unsatisfactory nature of the settlement, as well. I won't seek to rehearse those arguments again this afternoon.

But it appears to me, given where we are and given the nature of today's settlement, that there are two roles that, broadly, the Welsh Government can play in energy policy. The first is a more passive role in terms of creating a consenting and planning regime that will enable others to take decisions that are mainly commercially driven.

Do you believe, though, that, as well as it being a Government responsibility—? What can the Government do to empower more people to take some responsibility? The reason I ask this question is that so many people say to me, 'Oh, I'd love solar panels, but I haven't a clue how to go about it', or 'I'd love to put a heat pump in, I have no idea what I'm doing.' Is there a way that Government could actually, as we move forward, try and empower people to take responsibility themselves, and for those who wish to go out and buy these things to help, if it's only to heat their own home, or feed in to a grid, that that could be encouraged?

The Member for Aberconwy makes my second point for me.

The first role potentially for Government is more of a passive role; it provides the environment by which other people can take decisions and make investments. The second role, I think, is a far more interesting role. The way I framed the question, of course, provides the answer to where I'm standing, and that's an active driver of change. The public sector—we had this debate yesterday over public spending, to some extent—can change the terms of how we do things in our society. I very much very welcome some of the decisions that are being taken that will enable us to deliver an energy policy that is focused on local control, local management and on a distributed form.

Clearly, we need the major grid structures and we need to be able to deliver base-load supply—I understand all of that—but we also have to understand that Ofgem is another failed regulator. One of the issues we've got—. This is where I disagreed with the Blair Government that ownership doesn't matter and you can achieve everything by regulation. I believe ownership does matter. I believe not just the ethos of a public company, but also the ability of a public company to deliver for a public good, is actually an important point for all of us.

So, what I would like to see the Welsh Government focusing on—and the Government does say this in parts of its response—is more localised energy production and generation. Now, how do we do that? How do we de-risk that? How do we provide the finance that would enable, for example, reformed local government to invest in local energy companies, or co-operative and collaborative energy supply opportunities? I believe that's a very, very fascinating debate that we can have. And I would beg the Minister—I can see my time is drawing to a close—

You have extra time, as you took an intervention. 

I will take up every second of that generous offer. Let us not go down the route—. I've seen proposals in my own constituency where turbines of 180m, 650 ft, are being proposed within 1 km of some settlements. That's the size of the valley sides in my constituency. It's a wholly inappropriate development, and I believe that that is going to undermine support for the wider, more important issues of renewables.

The point I'll complete on is this: in both the response from the Government and the report from the committee, we didn't see the use of any international examples. And do you know, Deputy Presiding Officer, it might be an issue for yourselves as well; in my time in this place, I've seen us think less of other places. I've seen us think less of how we can learn lessons from elsewhere. I was delighted to see the Deputy Minister for sport supporting the women's rugby team in New Zealand, and meeting sports organisations and cultural organisations there. I think it's really important that we do that. We should always support people who take on that role. But how do we learn lessons from, say, France or Germany, from Scotland, from the United States, from Canada, about delivering locally based and locally rooted energy generation? I believe that there are opportunities there for us to learn and apply those lessons in Wales, and I hope that both the Senedd and the Government will not be shy about seeking out those international examples and seeking to apply them here in Wales.

I actually think that, together, there is a sense of joint venture in this place, between the Government and the Senedd, and I think, if we work together on these matters, we can achieve great things for the future. I'm grateful. Thank you very much.

I'm pleased to see that the lack of grid capacity has been recognised in recommendation 6 and 7. It's the biggest barrier to the uptake of renewables within north Wales. There's no shortage of households that wish to have renewable energy, such as solar PV and air-source heat pumps, but getting to the grid—the distribution network operator installing it—is causing so many issues. I've been told that SP Energy Networks are particularly difficult to get anything of scale accepted, and there seems to be very little appetite for renewables to be connected to their grid in north Wales. They have left applications without an answer for as long as six months, adding delays and complications to projects.

Flintshire council has been very proactive in trying to use renewable energy on social housing to assist tenants, including sheltered accommodation. They wanted to install 300 solar PV systems a year, but are often refused permissions to install. Another case is one in Saltney, where, three years, ago the district network operator request was submitted for the installation of 100 solar PV systems, which was refused. The reason given was that the local network needed upgrading. We’re also three years on now, and nothing by way of an upgrade has been planned. With the increase in fuel bills over the period, we have a situation where 103 households are not receiving the benefits that solar panels would bring.

Shortly after the original application, Flintshire County Council received a quotation of £33,000 for the upgrade to be carried out, which understandably was not taken up because they couldn’t afford it. It does not seem right that the district network operator should need paying to upgrade their own network when they’re getting free electricity when other DNOs are saying that they do not need payment. So, that needs balancing out, really—why Scottish Power are saying that they do, and others do not. Another incident with north Wales social housing is where an apartment block wanted to install 54 air-source heat pumps offset by solar power, and again, this was refused by SP Energy Networks. However, they were told that they would be able to put in costly electric storage heaters, which was a far less desirable outcome, because they understood that technology, basically. So I think they’ve got a lack of understanding of technology. These are just examples of many that have been relayed back to me.

I think the key issue is that we’re never going to reach the proposed Welsh Government targets without a radical upgrade of the grid infrastructure and the understanding of these network providers. So, I’d be grateful if the Minister could expand on Welsh Government’s response to these recommendations in particular, as they are so essential to expanding renewable energy production, especially in rural areas.

I’m also very concerned that the Prime Minister does not seem to believe in climate change and the nature emergency, and wants to invest in fossil fuels and fracking—flying in the face is the ban on fracking not being lifted until it is categorically proved that it does not cause tremors. Geology experts are still unable to do this, yet they still want to go ahead with it, which is really concerning.

I was so pleased to see the building of the new engineering unit in Coleg Llandrillo in Rhyl, thanks to Welsh Government funding. They’re building a leading wind turbine energy skill centre there, which is fantastic. So they will be leading on upskilling engineering apprentices in north Wales, but also they’re hoping to have the contract for the north-west of England as well to make that provision in north Wales, which is fantastic. Thank you.

I would like to make a few points on marine wind energy developments in the future with particular reference to recommendation 11, which asks for clarity as to what steps the Welsh Government would take to streamline the process for developing the Celtic sea renewable energy projects in future years. I congratulate the committee for the work that’s gone into this report, and which touches upon so many important areas such as this one.

I read in the Government’s response that, whilst they accept this recommendation, they are looking at the licensing and consent processes, which are very important, and I welcome that. I’m pleased to see a reference to the fact that discussions are ongoing with the Crown Estate, which is crucially important, and I echo the need to devolve responsibility for the Crown Estate to Wales.

But, I would like to ask the Minister about the need also to ensure the development of that broader infrastructure that can allow us to benefit economically from renewable energy. I do think that that should be a priority, and I’m very keen—the Minister won’t be surprised to hear that—on developing the port of Holyhead as a port to serve the next generation of wind energy projects off the Welsh coast. I do think that there’s a very real opportunity here to create jobs, to attract investment and to give long-term sustainable use to the old Anglesey Aluminium site, not only as a service centre for the next generation of windfarms, but also for production, too. So, I would welcome hearing from the Minister what kind of support and what kind of commitment she's willing to give to try and deliver the potential of the port of Holyhead in that way.

I call on the Minister for Climate Change, Julie James. 

Diolch, Dirprwy Llywydd. I very much welcome the opportunity to respond to this debate today, and I very much thank the Climate Change, Environment and Infrastructure Committee for their very valuable report. The crisis that the Chair identified in his foreword has clearly deepened, as he said, and the cost-of-living crisis perpetuated by the absolutely shambolic UK Government's economic mismanagement is something that we've already debated a number of times just today. I keep having to check my phone to see who the Minister responsible is. 

But, the UK Government has belatedly introduced some help with energy costs, but the certainty around those measures has evaporated as one of the slew of u-turns that followed the Tories' shambolic budget last month, as we debated just earlier. Energy costs are still considerably higher than last winter, even with that help. Many households and businesses are not being offered the help that they need, and we now have higher interest rates and a weaker pound, fuelling inflation to levels not seen since the 1980s and the last majority Conservative Government.  

The UK has seen some of the biggest increases in energy costs, despite a relatively limited direct reliance on gas supplies from Russia, and that's directly because of the failure of the UK Government to reform the UK energy system over the last decade. The failure does risk locking in fossil fuel dependency, reflected in the desperate announcements by the UK Government on its intention to expand new oil and gas licences in the North sea, and to facilitate new fracking in England. Just to reiterate once more, we are vehemently opposed to both of these measures, and our policies will continue to use all powers available to us to oppose any new extraction in Wales. 

The current system has allowed major businesses in the energy sector to generate unprecedented windfall profits, and it is the windfall gains across the whole energy sector that the UK Government should be targeting to fund the support for households and businesses. It's difficult to fathom what's possessed the UK Government to rule out taxing windfall profits in the oil and gas sectors. I can't fathom whether it's ideology or that they've just painted themselves into a political corner, and now don't know how to get out.

Given the recent u-turns and the dismal state of public finances as a direct result of decisions they've made, I really do hope that the UK Government will urgently reconsider its position on the extraction of fossil fuels, because, Deputy Llywydd, this crisis is not an excuse for scaling back ambitions for a fairer, greener energy system. The crisis, in fact, demands that we take further action to address the failings of the last decade, while we do everything in our power to protect the most vulnerable from this Tory economic turmoil. 

The renewable energy deep-dive was set up to identify opportunities and address the barriers that risk our ambition for Wales to at least meet our own energy needs from renewable sources, although obviously we'd very much like to be a net exporter as well. And I'm extremely grateful to members of the deep-dive for their considered work, and for their continued support as we implement the recommendations. 

With a clear ambition in place, we will be consulting on revised renewable energy targets later this year, in line with our commitments, as set out it in 'Net Zero Wales'. The committee's report rightly recognises the role that targets can have to help bring greater clarity to industry, stakeholders and to all citizens on the pathway to a net-zero energy system. We absolutely acknowledge that Wales has an abundance of natural resources that mean we are capable of generating energy to meet demand elsewhere. But, if we are to utilise our resources, we must do so in a way that protects our natural heritage and retains as much benefit and value in Wales as possible, sharing the costs and rewards fairly, as a large number of Members have commented on during this debate. 

We've already delivered on a number of commitments from the deep-dive; we've published our guidance on ownership to support the discussions between developers and communities to meet our local and community ownership ambitions; we have scaled up the resources to Community Energy Wales and our funding available through the Welsh Government energy service to provide community renewable energy projects; and we continue to progress work on a publicly owned renewable energy developer, committed to in 'Net Zero Wales'.

I just note, Janet, from your contribution your scepticism about a state-owned company for the UK or for Wales, but, of course, the grid is delivered by Scottish Power in north Wales, and the irony of what you think of as a private company being owned by a different country—the same for energy, the same for rail, the same for what you call the private sector—I really do wish that you would get a grip and understand that those countries benefit from our Government's lack of an ambition for its own people. We do not share that lack of ambition. We will be bringing forward details on our plans for a large-scale publicly owned developer next week, and how we will develop new relationships with the private sector to deliver that goal. 

We want to support a thriving private renewable energy sector that delivers the economic and social value that investment can bring to Wales. We will work in partnership, where we have a shared vision for how investment will directly benefit the people of Wales. I must say at this point, Rhun, that I had a very enjoyable trip out to Gwynt y Môr, but we had a very constructive discussion with a developer there about how we can get community energy arrangements embedded in that system, and that will improve the whole system right across north Wales. We must absolutely ensure that the supply streams, both for the building and the operational stages of those private sector developments—though, again, 'private sector' in inverted commas—come to Wales, so I'm very determined to do that. But, we are also determined to drive a community ownership programme into those private developments by way of a large-scale developer.

Our consenting and planning and licensing arrangements are there to support appropriate developments and to avoid unacceptable impacts on people and the environment. We need to make sure that the processes that determine applications are fit for purpose and do not delay decisions unnecessarily, but also do not impact unnecessarily on our environment. Our programme of work to streamline consent processes and ensure that there are sufficient resources available to support developers is well under way. We'll be setting out the conclusions of the independent review of marine consenting arrangements by the end of this year, and as many Members have commented, we are committed to an infrastructure consenting Bill to be introduced before the end of next year.

A key part of the infrastructure that we need is sufficient grid capacity, as pretty much everyone has acknowledged. The current system, responsibility for which is reserved to UK Government, is clearly not fit for purpose. Rather tragically, and just before the real shambles that ensued over the border, I had just spoken to the then Minister, Greg Hands, and they had finally accepted the need for a planned grid and a higher network system operator. I spoke with the head of the National Infrastructure Commission for the UK this morning, to emphasise the fact that we want that commitment to stay. Contact with the current UK Government is impossible, it seems to me, because they don't stay in post long enough for you to be able to get their address. But if we do ever get any sense of who is responsible for it, we will be pushing that. I do have an inter-ministerial group scheduled for Monday. It was to be in person in Edinburgh; it's now virtual, because we do not know who the UK Government Minister coming to it is. But we will be pushing the continuation of the commitment to a higher network system operator and a planned grid, because that is what we need. We have been pushing that for the last I don't know how long; I've been talking about this for 40 years just personally. How we can have a grid, driven by the market, in circumstances where there is no functioning market, I mean, just beggars belief. So, we will be pushing for that. We're not just hoping for the UK Government, though, to take that forward; we have a future grid Wales project in Wales, so we'll be taking the lead in that. We're taking a strategic approach to grid infrastructure, as we deliver the empirical evidence for what the grid needs are in Wales, to inform the needs of a system operator.

The deep-dive recognised the continued need for a strategic approach for Wales in the recommendation for that system architect; we see that as one component in the wider set of reforms needed at UK level, to regulate the energy system to become a more dynamic, efficient and sustainable area. We are working separately [Interruption.]—I will not have time now, I've run out—with NRW on the budgets and the planning infrastructure Bill, and I just want to say to Janet that I was delighted to see that she supported the devolution of the Crown Estates, and I look forward to being copied into her letter to the Minister.

On a point of order—

It's not a point of order, but I will allow you to make an intervention, if you want.

Thank you very much, and thank you for taking the intervention. I didn't quite hear what Alun said. I didn't honestly say that I supported it; I didn't mean that, anyway.

You're retracting it. Another u-turn by the Conservatives, right here on the floor. [Laughter.]

I think the Member has indicated and put the record straight, so—.

Thank you.

She wants the money to stay in the—[Inaudible.]

Minister.

So, Dirprwy Lywydd, I've very much run out of time now, although I have taken a number of interventions. In the short term available, I've briefly set out some of the key actions we've taken in line with the committee's recommendations. We published a progress report for all the recommendations of the deep-dive, as was acknowledged by the Climate Change, Environment and Infrastructure Committee. We need collective action across a number of areas in Wales—action by businesses, in communities, and those actions that require the UK Government to take its share of responsibility. We need urgent action to fix the broken market, to protect consumers this winter and to rapidly move away from fossil fuels and build a resilient and sustainable net-zero energy system. And I'll finish just by thanking once more the committee for its valuable work. Diolch.

I call on Llyr Gruffydd to reply to the debate.

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd, and thank you to everyone who's contributed. I won't rehearse everything that everyone has said; there's a danger of doing that in closing a debate like this, but I just want to pick up on some of the main themes. Certainly, the messages on licensing and permissions are coming through clearly. Just on marine licensing, I am aware that, in England, the Government is committed to reducing the timetable for licensing to 12 months. We know of examples in Scotland where the Government there have licensed major projects within 11 months. So, we are looking now to the Welsh Government to see exactly where Wales is in this regard, and I was pleased to hear that there will be an announcement on some work that's been done at the end of the year. But, again, it's the end of the year—there's a risk that we're missing out on opportunities here and that the major opportunities taken by other nations around us will have been lost by the time we get to the point where we are ready.

I was going to welcome the statement by the Conservative spokesperson that they are now in favour of the devolution of the Crown Estate. She has now explained that they are not in favour of that. It's clear that u-turns are a characteristic that the Conservatives are very proud of and that's an even quicker u-turn than some of those carried out by Liz Truss in these past weeks. But, there we are, I don't know, some policy—. Well, you can explain the rationale behind your policy and where you stand on that some other time.

There were other contributions that referred to the importance of taking control of the energy future that we want in Wales, rather than others doing that on our behalf, because we see the legacy in terms of coal and other contexts. But, simultaneously, of course, balancing the expansion of renewable energy with halting the decline of biodiversity is something that we're all painfully aware of.

Alun Davies said that, in reality, there isn't a great deal of difference between what the committee is saying and what the Government is saying. The great frustration is that the committee and predecessor committees have been saying this for 10 years and we still have to make the same points. And I do accept that many of those elements are beyond the control of the Welsh Government, and we recognise that. But there is a feeling of joint venture, which Alun mentioned, which I think is something that we should be building upon. But also the real joint venture we want to see is between the Welsh Government and the UK Government in order to unlock the potential that we want to see.

Thank you to Rhun for making specific reference to infrastructure, which is central to what drives much of the vision, and the port of Holyhead—as a regional Member, I can say I agree 100 per cent. As committee chair, I would say that there are ports across Wales that we want to see benefiting from this. But, of course, all of the added value that will come in light of the supply chains and so on—well, that is the goal, isn't it? We want to deliver all the benefits—not just the decarbonisation, but also the economic and social benefits that will emerge. So, delivering one of those isn't success; we have to deliver on all of those fronts.

And the Minister is right, of course, that any kind of assurance in the sector in the climate we find ourselves in with the current state of the UK Government is very challenging indeed. And there are reports that the vote on fracking is going to be some sort of vote of confidence in the Prime Minister. Well, that might be the case, but, for me, more importantly, a vote like that would be a vote of confidence, or lack of confidence, in future generations. Let's forget about individuals, but it would be very significant and it would be a clear statement from the direction of the UK Government that climate change is something that is no longer a priority, and that, as I was saying, less than 12 months since the COP summit.

So, thank you all for your contributions. This is a piece of work that will continue for the committee. We will continue to scrutinise Government in this context and we will continue to be critical when necessary, but also to be supportive in order to deliver our objectives. Thank you.

The proposal is to note the committee's report. Does any Member object? I don't see any objections. So, the motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Item 7 this afternoon is the  debate on the Public Accounts and Public Administration report on care home commissioning. I call on the Chair of the committee to move the motion—Mark Isherwood.

Diolch and thank you for the opportunity to discuss the Public Accounts and Public Administration Committee's report on care home commissioning. Members may be aware of the committee’s report on this matter, which made several key recommendations in what is a complex area, with the aim of making the system more equitable for all. This inquiry reflected on the Auditor General for Wales’s national summary report, 'Care Home Commissioning for Older People'.

The committee heard from a range of stakeholders about the accessibility and quality of care home provision, including oral evidence received from the Older People’s Commissioner for Wales, Age Cymru, Care Forum Wales, the Welsh Local Government Association, the Association of Directors of Social Services, and the Welsh Government itself. The committee also received written submissions from a range of regional partnership boards, the Royal College of Nursing Wales and others, and I thank everyone who contributed to what was an important inquiry.

The committee notes that, while the Welsh Government has accepted most of our recommendations, its response appears to raise questions about their understanding of some of the issues, despite these being spelled out in existing Welsh law and guidance. It is, therefore, concerning that the response is indicative of the slow pace of policy reform in those areas and, specifically, the implementation of the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014.

We recommended that the Welsh Government should consider the voices of service users when considering policy reform in this area, where the lived experiences of residents are essential evidence as part of any reform process. Their voices should be central to the work of the Welsh Government’s task and finish group and the independent group that is developing the new national framework for social care national care service respectively. The Welsh Government accepted this recommendation and noted that the independent expert group included individuals from a range of diverse backgrounds. The committee were told that the recommendations of the independent group should have been received by Ministers at the end of April, but that there had been a delay. It is unclear from the Welsh Government's response the current status of the group’s work and when it will actually report. I'd, therefore, welcome clarity from the Minister on this, given the important role the group has in moving policy reform forward in this area.

Unfortunately, the narrative accompanying the acceptance of these recommendations falls some way short of the committee’s recommendation and the provisions of the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act itself, which mandates a co-productive approach, whereby, and I quote:

'Individuals and their families must be able to participate fully in the process of determining and meeting their identified care and support needs through a process that is accessible to them.'

This is in contrast with the consultative approach described in the Welsh Government’s response.

The Social Care Institute for Excellence, for example, describes co-production as

'not just a word, it’s not just a concept, it is a meeting of minds coming together to find a shared solution.'

As they state:

'There is a difference between co-production and involvement: involvement means being consulted, while co-production means being equal partners and co-creators.'

Genuine co-production of public services with users and communities is about better delivery of health, social services and other services—in this case, to an ageing population. It is not about consultation with stakeholders after a policy has been developed, regardless of who was involved in developing that policy. I seek assurances from the Minister as to how the Welsh Government will ensure that its expert group reaches those to whom it is most relevant and involves them in the process of creating and delivering a service that works for all, not just consulting them afterwards.

It's concerning that the Welsh Government does not appear to be taking a lead on this approach, despite the intent of the co-production provisions of the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014, which I worked with the then Deputy Minister at the time, Gwenda Thomas, on developing, and particularly not just the Act itself but the relevant codes of practice, which are quite clear in this respect. So, I urge the Welsh Government to implement the committee’s recommendation in all its future work in this area and to implement the unambiguous co-production provisions of the Act and its codes of practice.

The committee also concluded that more should be done to support and encourage volunteer participation in the care home sector, to offer quality-of-life services to service users. However, the role of volunteers must not be in place of full-time, professional paid care. The Welsh Government accepted this recommendation and provided more information about a recent pilot project, which sought to recruit volunteers to support safe visiting between residents and relatives during the pandemic. The committee is encouraged to learn that this initial pilot project's aims are to be broadened, and we'd be grateful if the Minister could agree to keep us updated on this.

One of the committee's key conclusions was that more should be done to ensure parity of terms and conditions and pay with NHS staff, with the intention of retaining staff and being competitive with other industries or sectors, such as the hospitality industry. The committee welcomes the Welsh Government's acceptance of this recommendation and introduction of the real living wage for social care workers. However, we'd be grateful if the Welsh Government could advise when the increase in the real living wage, announced by the Living Wage Foundation on 22 September, will be made available to providers via local authorities, where it's understood that, currently, recipients are still only receiving £9.90 per hour.

The committee also acknowledges the work of the social care fair work forum, which is looking at working conditions for social care workers. The committee urges the Welsh Government to go further in its proposals to ensure parity with NHS staff and to be competitive with other sectors. We welcome the Welsh Government's stated commitment to evaluating the work of the WeCare.Wales recruitment campaign. The committee also welcomes the work of Social Care Wales in learning about how social care providers recruit care workers and the challenges they face in so doing. We look forward to hearing more about their work, once it's completed next April.

On the subject of care home inspections, the committee is encouraged to hear about the efforts to reflect the opinions of service users during their inspections, but believes that more should be done to expand this part of the inspection process. Whilst the committee is encouraged to note Care Inspectorate Wales or CIW's intention to inspect all registered adult care homes in the period between 1 October 2021 and 31 March 2023, it is concerning to note that this aim may not be achieved. We, therefore, encourage the Welsh Government to update the committee on CIW's progress once this period concludes, and on how it complies with the measures introduced by the Welsh Government some years ago following a very worrying report by the then older people's commissioner.

The committee is disappointed that the Welsh Government has chosen to reject three recommendations, and particularly on top-up fees. We were deeply concerned about the nature of these fees and the way they are communicated to service users. The committee heard evidence about how top-up fees were being misapplied to service users, meaning that some of our most vulnerable citizens were faced with costs for basic services. The Older People's Commissioner for Wales told the committee that service users were unclear about what services would incur top-up fees, going on to state that families had approached her office because of, quote,

'unexpected, sudden bills for top-up fees, quite often for things that you would expect should be in the standard fee'.

The commissioner told us that service users had been charged for accessing the garden, for example. So, we strongly disagree with applying top-up fees for accessing basic services and rights, and concluded that more should be done to tighten the rules around these top-up fees, along with a new independent redress system to allow decisions to be challenged. Unfortunately, the Welsh Government chose to reject these recommendations, stating that clear guidelines are in place as part of the continuing healthcare framework, prohibiting top-up fees for basic services. However, the committee has been told by sector experts that these damaging practices continue to occur.

The Welsh Government's guidance on this matter is not working and is unclear for service users and providers. We question what is being done to monitor and evaluate the impact of this framework, when it's clear from the Welsh Government response they seem unaware that this guidance is not being followed, despite the evidence to the contrary in our report. The committee urges the Welsh Government in the strongest terms to urgently review this matter, and, as part of that review, to work with users and the organisations who represent them, such as Care Forum Wales, Age Cymru and the older people's commissioner, amongst others, to develop a new approach to top-up fees that works for the social care sector, and more importantly, its users.

The Welsh Government also rejected the committee's proposal about mandatory information sharing across the care home sector, with a particular focus on service user experience and satisfaction. The committee had concluded that this information should be shared at a national level, to ensure all parties have access to consistent and relevant information, linked with the seven well-being goals for Wales. In their response, the Welsh Government told the committee they were not seeking to mandate information sharing as they did not view the 'high cost' of implementing these provisions as resulting in

'a proportionate benefit in terms of data development over and above the measures we have already taken and have in hand.'

The committee would like to know, therefore, how the Welsh Government calculated this 'high cost', and what the calculation showed. It is regrettable that the Welsh Government sees implementing such a provision as a cost, as opposed to an investment in the social care sector, which should lead to cost benefits and a better body of information, including the voice of lived experience, to influence and shape future policy making in this area.

The committee heard from the chief executive of Care Forum Wales about the challenges associated with collecting information across local authority and health board boundaries, with different information requested in different formats. A national system would streamline this process and provide a comprehensive body of information on which to base future cost-saving decisions in the sector. It is therefore regrettable that the Welsh Government has disregarded the committee's conclusions in this area. The committee will continue to pursue these issues with the Welsh Government, and we otherwise look forward to further dialogue with them on this topic, and will be closely monitoring the implementation of our recommendations. 

This investigation by the Public Accounts and Public Administration Committee is, in my opinion, timely. Care homes play a major role in the provision of care to mainly older people, but not exclusively older people. It involves a large number of providers. Some are providers with more than one site, others have only one home, and there are some major providers, but each one of them is providing care to individuals. Each of these is important.

No-one has an ambition to end up in a care home, but many of us in this room today will end up in a care home, and even more of us will have a family member, either now or in the future, who will be in a care home. So, we've all got a personal interest in getting this right. The committee report was intended to highlight and examine the challenges faced in the complex area of care home commissioning for older people, with the aim of making the system more equitable for all. I think that 'equitable' is a word that we need to use more often, because everything should be equitable. The committee heard evidence about the accessibility and quality of care home provision in Wales, the variation and complexity associated with funding care, home placements, the difficulty faced in attracting and retaining staff to the industry, and the proposed policy reforms relevant to this field.

The committee recommended that the Welsh Government consider the voice of service users as part of their policy reform in this area. The committee would welcome further information from the Welsh Government on how they have consulted with service users and their families as part of the work of the expert group on social care. I support the call that the Welsh Government task and finish group developing the new national framework for social care should consult service users as part of its work, and I would say as a major part of its work. The Welsh Government needs to provide an update about how this will be achieved as part of its consultation in spring 2023. Too often, service users and their families have things done to them, have things done for them, have things people think will be good for them. Too often, this is based on 'professionals know best', rather than the individuals and their families. And it's not just in care; the same thing happens in health.

The committee recommended that the Welsh Government consider, as part of the development of a national care service, what more can be done to review the salaries and terms and conditions of care workers, to ensure parity with NHS staff and to be competitive with other industries such as the hospitality industry. Without parity of pay and conditions, the sector will continue to face problems recruiting and retaining staff. Health and care require many of the same skills. Health pays better, and it's seen as more important by politicians and the public. Care is really the poor relation of the health and care service, and that's something I know the Minister cares a lot about, so this is not me having a go at the Minister on this, because we've got a Minister who actually understands the importance of the care system and is committed to the care system. But, care home staff leave to work in the health service, creating a vacancy problem in care homes. And why wouldn't they? It's not always about pay, but why would people not leave for a better paid job? And, especially in the times we're in now when people are under financial pressure, moving into a better paid job has a lot to be said for it. It might mean that you put the heating on half an hour earlier, it might mean that you end up with three meals a day not two, or two meals a day not one. So, it is really important that pay is there. I know that the Deputy Minister has talked about this and I know the Deputy Minister's commitment to it is as great as mine, but it is something that we desperately need to ensure, that care is not the poor relation. The Deputy Minister has already accepted the need to increase pay, what is needed now is action on increasing pay for those working in care homes.

The Welsh Government needs to mandate a more proactive approach to sharing information across the care home sector, particularly information on service users' experience and satisfaction, linked with the seven well-being goals for Wales. The mandatory requirement to share information should be implemented on a national level to ensure that providers, service users and the Welsh Government have access to consistent and relevant information. Data also needs to be shared, and perhaps more importantly, between health, social care and care homes. Far too often, everybody has their own system, everybody says they're not allowed to share, and we get two answers on that: it either costs a lot or GDPR does not allow it. The Welsh Government should work with providers to proactively seek consent from service users and their families for the sharing of information; when people provide information, getting them to approve sharing with health and social care serving the care home. This would allow data to be shared, just like the way we all allow data to be shared by organisations that we deal with. We tick that box, 'Can we share data?' We need to have that box in there when people are in health and care areas.

I share the committee's concern about the charging of top-up fees and support the recommendation that the Welsh Government should issue binding restrictions to limit the areas where such fees are charged, which should be kept to a minimum and published. Mark Isherwood mentioned earlier charging for things such as using the care home garden; that is unfair and wrong. And, finally, I am very pleased that the auditor general has investigated the care home sector and that the committee has produced this report, and I know the Minister is listening to us.

This report on care home commissioning follows the auditor general's review published in October last year, entitled 'A Picture of Social Care'. This review has looked at the whole social care sector all across Wales and it has identified three key issues and long-standing challenges for the sector. Foremost among these is the need to achieve financial sustainability and funding arrangements. It claimed that progress on addressing challenges had been slow and that the pandemic had made the need for change even more pressing. Indeed, the auditor general clearly stated that, although the pandemic had exposed the fragility of care services across Wales, most of the issues were already in existence to some degree.

Demand for adult social care is likely to increase significantly, which I know both of my colleagues have highlighted. Social Care Wales's population projection platform shows that, from 2020 to 2040, the number of people over 65 who struggle with the activities of daily living is projected to increase to 34 per cent. Faced with these challenges, the committee examined care home commissioning for older people with a view to strengthening the sector and making it more equitable. We looked at the accessibility and quality of provision, as well as variations in funding and issues regarding staff recruitment and retention, which both my colleagues, again, have mentioned.

On accessibility, the committee was guided by the principle of simplifying the process for service users. The auditor general's national summary report said that access to care homes by older people is complex and hard to navigate, which is not fair for elderly people and their families to have to deal with. The Older People's Commissioner for Wales pointed out that the overall quality of care homes was variable and Age Cymru reported issues where care is not available for service users through the Welsh language. 

On funding, we tried to find out the reasons for the variation in expenditure on residential care and continuing weekly healthcare costs. Again, to quote the auditor general, public sector funding approaches for different aspects of care can create division amongst partners. The funding landscape for social care is very, very complex and confusing because of the varying streams of funding an individual may be eligible for. I know we all support equality here across every single party that we have here in the Senedd, but we must have equality for the elderly here all across Wales. My biggest concern is that the standards vary, with privately funded patients able to access a much higher quality of accommodation.

On staff recruitment and retention, the committee noted that workers were being lost to the retail and hospitality industries due to a higher level of pay being offered and lower work pressure. Staff were also being lost to the NHS for the same reasons.

To meet these challenges, we've made 13 recommendations, and I'm pleased the Welsh Government has agreed—alongside my colleagues, as they've mentioned this as well—that 10 have been agreed. I would urge you, therefore, Minister, to seriously reconsider your rejection of recommendation 8 specifically, regarding the need for a more proactive approach to sharing information in the interest of transparency and to ensure access to consistent and relevant information.

Our recommendations 11 and 12 on the charging of top-up fees have been sadly rejected. In Wales, although we all talk about equality and fairness for all, it really saddens me to say that it's not apparent in elderly care here in Wales. In evidence, the Older People's Commissioner for Wales says that service users are often unsure about what will incur top-up fees and that the true cost of care is not fully understood as a result. They need to have that in place, Minister. Again, I would also ask you, Minister, to look once again at this matter to provide certainty in charging top-up fees in the name of equality, fairness and transparency going forward.

Therefore, Minister, this report, in its aims, the intention is fully there to make the social care system in Wales more accessible, less complex and fairer for vulnerable individuals and their families. I truly believe it has succeeded in its aims and it has my full support, but the areas that have been rejected must be looked at again as we cannot ignore Wales's increasingly ageing population. Thank you.

I welcome the report of the Public Accounts and Public Administration Committee from its inquiry into care home commissioning. I also welcome the opportunity to speak on the topic in the Senedd.

This report clearly highlights the challenges faced in the complex area of care home commissioning for older people, with the intention of improving the system so that it is more equitable for all. It's fair to say that the challenges facing the sector are wide and far reaching. The committee heard evidence about the accessibility and quality of care home provision in Wales, the variations and complexity associated with funding care home placements, the difficulties faced in attracting and retaining staff in the industry, and the proposed policy reforms relevant to its field.

The report's recommendations are aimed at addressing some of the important issues, and if implemented, will help to strengthen and simplify the process of care home commissioning. Such improvements are important for us all, as social care is a service that touches the lives of individuals and families in every part of Wales. Sadly, for a service that is so crucial, social care is criminally undervalued. Workers are not given the respect they deserve and this is reflected in poor terms and conditions. The Government will no doubt mention the introduction of the living wage, but as TUC Cymru concludes, it is not enough. It is worth pointing out that this conclusion was reached last year, and long before economic mismanagement by the Tories in Westminster exacerbated the cost-of-living crisis, which has made social care less attractive.

It is not just pay that care workers get hammered on, either: terms and conditions are weak. As the TUC also pointed out, thousands of care workers in the outsourced sector are not contractually entitled to proper sick pay. They estimate that around 5 per cent of staff are not even eligible for statutory sick pay. Apart from the immorality of this, the situation will inevitably lead to ill workers coming into contact with vulnerable people because they cannot afford to take a day off sick. How can this be in the twenty-first century?

Many of the problems identified in the report could be solved by a merger between health and social care. This has been a long-standing policy of Plaid Cymru and I'm pleased that movement towards this goal is covered by the co-operation agreement that we struck with the Government. The commitment to get a report from an expert group to explore the creation of a national care service, free at the point of need, as a continuing public service cannot come soon enough. Through the integration of health and care workers, we can raise the recognition as well as the reward that is long overdue for social care workers.

I must also mention the lack of community hospital capacity in the NHS, which is having a knock-on effect on social care as well as our health service. Just last week, my Plaid Cymru colleague Rhun ap Iorwerth mentioned the drop in the number of hospital beds in Wales from around 20,000 at the end of the 1980s to just over half that in the present day. The demise of the community hospital can partly explain the downward trend, and it's having a huge impact on the NHS, causing bottlenecks in hospitals and elsewhere. I understand the push to treat more and more people at home, as many would prefer this, but for some it's not appropriate, if they are not well enough or not mobile enough to live at home. In such circumstances, without an adequate package in place, they remain in hospital. A community hospital bed would be a much better solution. These beds do not cost as much as district general hospital beds, and I echo Rhun's call for the Government to look into the matter with urgency. Diolch yn fawr.

I'd like to thank the Chair of the Public Accounts and Public Administration Committee, Mark Isherwood, members of the committee and staff for conducting an inquiry into care home commissioning in response to the publication of the commissioner's report back in December 2021. Care homes across Wales require high levels of staffing and dedicated staff to provide the best possible care to patients. Although many carers provide the dedicated care that's needed, it's also important to highlight the role of nurses in care homes in providing care in challenging and complex circumstances. Equally, it's important to highlight how nurses in care homes play a role in reducing hospital admissions, which supports the function of the NHS and opens up more beds in our hospitals.

It's unfortunate that around two in five care homes provide nurses, and I strongly believe that the Welsh Government should be encouraging more nurses in care homes. I recognise that there is a wider nursing recruitment crisis in the Welsh NHS, and this is not something the Welsh Government can fix overnight, but it highlights that the Welsh Government must address the lack of recruitment and lack of retention amongst nurses. I agree with the committee that there should be concern over the ability of care homes to provide high-quality care due to severe shortages. Although in the ideal world we would have nurses in all care homes, this cannot be the reality at the moment.

We must recognise the right approach taken by the committee in recognising the role of volunteers in aiding the care of care home residents, but they should not be taking the place of professional staff in providing the primary care. Although volunteering can give young people the skills to begin a lifelong career in care, they must not be used as a replacement to professional staff whilst the Government tries to promote recruitment and retention.

Care homes play a vital role in ensuring that elderly people and those most in need of care can indeed receive the services they need in a safe and homely environment. But one of the biggest problems facing care homes currently is the social care staff recruitment and retention. What we need to achieve is making a career in social care more attractive. As mentioned in the Health and Social Care Committee's debate into hospital discharges last week, social care staff don't just work 9 to 5 Monday to Friday, they work weekends, nights, unsociable hours, sleep-ins. What they need is a Welsh Government that supports their and my calls for better pay for social care workers.

The Welsh Government stand up in this Chamber and bask in the glory of paying the real living wage, but £9.90 just isn't enough, particularly given the current living pressures we face. Social care workers are some of the lowest paid workers in the labour market, despite their dedication to helping our most vulnerable. Maybe if the Welsh Government stopped funding airports and pet projects, then aligning care social care staff pay with NHS pay scales might become more achievable. I believe it's achievable, and I'd be grateful if the Minister could again address this in her response to the debate this afternoon.

If we can reward our nurses, social care workers and front-line staff, not only will we be making the sector more attractive, but we will also be improving a lot of the wider concern surrounding healthcare as we struggle to tackle the problem of delayed transfers of care and giving people the care they need when they need it the most. It runs throughout the whole system, Deputy Llywydd. If we can improve discharge rates to care homes, then we'll be freeing up hospital beds, bettering waiting times in emergency departments and playing our part in improving ambulance waiting times. I'm not trying to say that this is the single, definitive path to solving all the world's problems, but I certainly believe that it will go a long way to helping some of the chronic problems we face in our health and social care systems in north Wales and across Wales as a whole. Let's be ambitious and do all we can to deliver the best possible services to the people who need it the most. Diolch

I call on the Deputy Minister for Social Services, Julie Morgan.

Thank you. I welcome the opportunity to reply to this important debate.

I've really enjoyed listening to this debate today and, as you know, we're very happy to accept the majority of the committee's recommendations.

The report rightly has a clear focus on evaluating and monitoring the impact of the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014, and placing the voice and experiences of service users at the heart of the system. As well as the evaluation studies we've undertaken, compliance with the Act is assessed by the regulators CIW and HIW, supplemented by a national performance improvement framework and local authority reporting. And through our rebalancing reforms, we will ensure that this evolves further.

Users and carers are helping us to shape the rebalancing programme through the various task and finish groups, including one specifically looking at co-production, engagement and voice across the regional partnership boards. The outputs from these groups will be consulted upon in the spring. The rebalancing task and finish group on engagement and voice is working with a range of stakeholders to co-produce tools and standards to improve service user and carer engagement and participation in social care services, and the work will be reflected in the national commissioning framework that is under development.

The experiences and expectations of service users were also considered by the expert group, which consisted of individuals from a diverse range of backgrounds and perspectives. The chair of the committee asked me to report on how far this group had got, and I'm pleased to say that the report has now been completed. It is now in the process of being translated, and will be published next month, in November. So, I'd like to put on record my thanks to the individuals who took part in that group. Once the report has been considered by Ministers and the Plaid Cymru designated Member, because, of course, this is a core part of our co-operation agreement, there'll be a period of extensive consultation to develop an implementation plan, which will be co-produced. We will, of course, ensure these consultations include service users, unpaid carers and the third sector, and community groups that represent their views and experiences.

The report also emphasised the importance of embedding the voice of service users in inspections. Between October 2021 and August 2022, CIW undertook 705 inspections of 614 adult care homes, and spent 9,181 hours on site, providing the opportunity to talk directly to residents, their families and friends. That is a key part of what CIW does: trying to engage directly with the residents. CIW also looks for evidence that people have a voice in the running of their home, which, again, is a very important point.

CIW are acutely aware of the continuing impact of the pandemic on social care, exacerbated by pressure on staffing. Where CIW finds poor outcomes, they require action and will return to check improvements that have been made. Such additional inspections could delay the completion of the planned programme, but the aim remains to have inspected all registered adult care homes between 1 October 2021 and 31 March 2023. I hope that reassures the committee.

Many Members have mentioned the issue about recruitment, pay and terms and conditions, and the report does highlight—and many people have mentioned today—the need to address these pressing issues. These are all being considered by the social care fair work forum, which brings together key partners from across the sector to find ambitious, pragmatic and achievable solutions, and to bring about real and lasting change. The forum has initially focused on improvements to pay, including advice on how to take forward the commitment to paying all care staff the real living wage, and I am proud that we have managed to pay the real living wage to social care workers in Wales. This has been supported by funding of £43 million this year. The chair asked about the uplift to the real living wage, and that is something that we are considering at the moment. Of course we want to pay it, but I think you will be aware that the financial circumstances at the moment are not very encouraging. But this is something we would certainly want to do. 

With regard to recruitment, we’re working with Social Care Wales to ensure robust evaluation of the WeCare.Wales campaign. Social Care Wales has already commissioned research into care employers’ methods of recruitment, including their awareness of the campaign and its impact, and that will be completed at the beginning of next year. I think it is difficult to establish how successful certain recruitment campaigns are when we have such a myriad of providers providing social care in Wales because of the large number of care homes in the independent sector.

The report recognises the potential for greater use of volunteers in care homes, which a number of Members have brought up, and in our written response we detailed the work we are undertaking with our partners to broaden the role, reach and skills of volunteers in these settings and to grow their numbers. I am very keen to encourage volunteers to be more involved in care homes and a key consideration will be ensuring that volunteers’ roles are clear and appropriate, and focusing on added value.

We fully agree that citizens’ experiences must be the basis and impetus for all improvements in social care provision, and we accept the principle behind the committee’s recommendation to introduce an additional mandatory requirement to share this information. However, I’m not convinced that, at the moment, the costs of implementing this across hundreds of providers outweigh the benefits over and above the information sharing measures already in place. However, it is something that we can consider in the future. On top-up fees, I would be deeply concerned if any individual is being charged for care where that care is already provided free of charge through the public purse, and I note the comments that several Members made about having to pay top-up fees to access the garden, which is absolutely ridiculous. So, I think that would be completely wrong.

There are already clear guidelines on additional services in the continuing healthcare framework, and such personal contribution arrangements must never be used as a mechanism for subsidising the service provision for which the NHS is responsible. Therefore, we also do not think it’s appropriate to commit to amendments to regulations on top of these, or to initiate a new independent redress system, ahead of considering a report of the national care service expert group. We’d need to consider carefully how any consequential refinements we might make to the existing regulations and frameworks sit in the context of any new system, so we don’t feel able to accept that recommendation now.

Then finally, with regard to pooled funding for commissioning, the integrated services task and finish group has been reviewing existing arrangements as part of our rebalancing programme, and they’ve particularly taken into account the Audit Wales report on the commissioning of care home placements for older people. They will also review the impact of the toolkit that was co-produced with stakeholders. Recommendations from the task and finish group will form part of the consultation package next spring.

Finally, I’d like to thank the committee very much for its report, which I think is a very valuable report. There is clearly much to be done. There is a lot of work ongoing, and I look forward to continuing to work with our partners on this agenda through the various groups we have set up. We will be carefully bearing in mind the recommendations that the committee has made, and I'm happy to report back on those to the committee as they progress. Diolch.

I call on Mark Isherwood to reply to the debate.

Diolch. I have to be brief, as time is short, but thanks very much to all contributors.

Mike Hedges, as you said, this investigation was timely. Although it primarily involves older people, it is not exclusively about older people; everything should be equitable, and we need to move from doing things to or for people to doing things with them.

Natasha emphasised the need for financial stability where the funding landscape is complex and confusing and staff are being lost to the retail and hospitality sectors.

Peredur Griffiths talked about the need to simplify the process for care home commissioning, and about the lack of community hospital capacity. That takes me back to the campaign initially won and then lost, in the third Senedd term, Community Hospitals Acting Nationally Together Cymru, CHANT Cymru. We held the line briefly but then they closed them. But that's not the Chair speaking—momentarily, I became an independent Member. Right. [Laughter.] 

Gareth Davies referred to the importance of the role of nurses, and also the importance of staff recruitment and retention.

I thank the Deputy Minister for her response. She referred to the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014, and talked about evaluation studies being undertaken, and service users and carers helping the Welsh Government to shape this via task and finish groups. We do need to know how those groups comply with co-productive principles, which is about making time to save time, and turning the power thing upside down. How is that building community resilience and capacity, so that people can be genuine equal partners and co-creators? 

As the written response that we have from the Welsh Government stated, once the expert group report is considered by Ministers and the designated Member, there will be an extensive period of consultation, including service users and their families, as part of the process to develop an implementation plan. That is the absolute antithesis of the social services and well-being Act, and its codes of practice. Where are the genuine prudential care principles—co-production, early intervention and prevention principles—running to that? 

And in terms of both accepted and rejected recommendations, I'm pleased to hear some of the Deputy Minister's response, but I still feel that perhaps there's a deficit, which is reflecting itself in public services elsewhere in Wales, in terms of really understanding what the voice of lived experience, the cost savings that can be generated through that and information sharing actually mean. And if we embrace that properly, how we can genuinely improve lives, build stronger communities and, ultimately, not add costs but save costs, too. Thank you. 

The proposal is to note the committee's report. Does any Member object? I can't hear any objections, so the motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36. 

The next item is item 8. 

The debate on petition P-06-1294, 'Don't leave metastatic breast cancer patients in Wales behind'. I'm aware that the petitioner is in the Senedd; I'd like to welcome her, and she will be listening carefully to the debate. 

I call on the Chair of the committee to move the motion, Jack Sargeant. 

Diolch yn fawr, Deputy Presiding Officer. 

On behalf of the Petitions Committee, thank you for the opportunity to bring this important debate forward on the petition, 

P-06-1294, 'Don't leave metastatic breast cancer patients in Wales behind’ which received 14,106 signatures. 

Deputy Presiding Officer, Members will be aware that it was Secondary Breast Cancer Awareness Day last Thursday. The day highlights that the way we diagnose, the way we treat, the way we support and the way we care for secondary breast cancer has been too slow for too long. I believe this debate today can make an important contribution to highlighting some of the challenges we face here in Wales. According to an evaluation of support and care for patients diagnosed with metastatic breast cancer in 2019, there are 2,786 new breast cancers diagnosed each year, with 612 related deaths in Wales each year—612, Deputy Presiding Officer. Figures from Public Health England are stating that breast cancer is now the leading cause of death for women between 35 and 64 in the UK. This petition calls for change. The petition reads as follows:

'People living with metastatic breast cancer (MBC) in Wales are being badly let down by the system. Currently, Wales has just one dedicated secondary breast cancer clinical nurse specialist (CNS), a situation that leaves potentially hundreds of people without adequate support. We need to know how many people are living with MBC to improve services. And we want improve quality of life outcomes by raising awareness of MBC red flag symptoms.'

Deputy Presiding Officer, this petition was submitted by Tassia Haines, who is one of a number of patients, campaigners and supporters here this afternoon, watching in the public gallery, and I would like to extend my welcome to this Senedd Chamber. I had the privilege of meeting Tassia on Monday, and I want to pay tribute to the dedication and bravery that she has shown in raising awareness of this devastating condition, and to devoting so much of her time to campaign for improvements that will only benefit others.

Now, I know that the Deputy Presiding Officer, Dai Rees, shares my comments about Tassia, as he has worked closely with her in his own role as Member of the Senedd for Aberavon. As Tassia says, in her open letter to the Minister for Health and Social Services, and I quote, Deputy Presiding Officer:

'Unfortunately, I have been living with metastatic breast cancer (MBC) for over two years even though I am just thirty years old. I am receiving treatment from two health boards and have met people undergoing treatment from all over Wales, and regretfully I must inform you, Wales is failing when it comes to meeting the needs of MBC patients, according to us - The people dying
from the disease and the close people supporting those with MBC.'

Tassia’s petition, and the wider campaign, calls for three things. First, better data collection of people living in Wales with incurable secondary breast cancer. Currently, the Cancer Network Information System Cymru does not report the number of patients diagnosed with the metastatic disease. This campaign is asking for a central Welsh system that will collect the details of all secondary breast cancer patients in the country. Secondly, better awareness of the red flag symptoms of metastatic breast cancer. There is a lack of understanding in primary breast cancer patients in how to tell that a cancer has spread beyond the breast, and this campaign wants primary patients and GPs to be given more details on how to spot these red flag symptoms to improve earlier diagnosis. And thirdly and importantly, Deputy Presiding Officer, better patient care. The campaign wants all Welsh patients to have access to a specially trained metastatic breast cancer nurse, whose workload is focused only on MBC patients, which campaigners feel can be cost effective for the NHS by preventing hospital admissions, for example.

On Monday, I didn't just meet Tassia, I had the privilege of meeting other patients and nurses, who emphasised that we must understand, Members—we must understand that primary and secondary breast cancer are different, and therefore, they require different healthcare provision. They emphasised that individuals need support at the most difficult time of their lives when diagnosed with a terminal illness, and they require individually tailored support throughout ongoing treatment through to palliative care.

Now, I know that the Minister is committed to driving improvements in cancer care in Wales. The Welsh Government’s new quality standard, published in May this year, sets out what good care will look like in the future. Later this year, we expect to see the publication of an NHS-led cancer action plan, giving further detail to that vision of patient-led care for cancer sufferers. But with all that in mind, Deputy Presiding Officer, I do look forward to hearing from fellow colleagues of the Petitions Committee, fellow Members, and, of course, from the health Minister, to hear the latest developments in cancer care, particularly responding to the three main calls of the petition, and how we can help the people who need that support most. Diolch yn fawr.

Diolch to the Business Committee for the urgency, enabling this debate to take place following last week's Petitions Committee meeting. I know that Tassia is here today, and I'd like to thank her and congratulate her on her efforts to raise awareness of metastatic breast cancer.

Tassia, I can't begin to imagine how difficult this campaign has been for you. You're an inspiration to us all, and your voice will speak for the 35,000 people living with metastatic breast cancer across the UK. End-of-life cancer care cannot be based on assumptions. People in Wales are dying now. It isn't possible to plan care or create pathways without solid, reliable data. If we are to support people living in Wales with metastatic breast cancer, we need to know exactly how many people are being treated. Many of us have stood in this Chamber on more than one occasion calling to combat the inequalities that exist within women's health. It's a fact that the leading cause of death in women aged between 35 and 64 in the UK is metastatic breast cancer. Access to a clinical nurse specialist is the main point of consistent contact between different health professionals. For people suffering with metastatic breast cancer, this must be seriously considered.

Tassia has shared an open letter, which has been supported by 277 metastatic breast cancer patients, stating that the care needed isn't received. An extract from the letter reads:

'Can you comprehend what it is like to navigate your final months/years between disability, pain and death? And in my case be too sick to pursue a career and have a family, but is not sick enough to die, just yet?'

The truth is, unless we find ourselves in that position, we cannot begin to comprehend what it is like, but what we can do is help raise awareness. Last week, I attended the funeral of a dear friend, Marion Abbott, who sadly passed with metastatic breast cancer. Today and tomorrow, the team at Canolfan Pentre are holding a 'wear it pink' cake sale to raise money and awareness of metastatic breast cancer in the memory of Marion, and to support those who are campaigning, like Tassia. We owe it to them to continue raising awareness, to urgently work towards better data collection, and to seriously consider increasing the number of secondary breast cancer clinical care specialists, who prove invaluable to improve the care and quality of life of people with metastatic breast cancer in Wales. Diolch.

I want to start by saying that the Welsh Conservative group and myself heartily agree with the calls found within this petition, and the fact that so many signatures have been received highlights the strength of feeling there is within Wales of the need to do much more to help those living with metastatic breast cancer. I want to thank Tassia and all those who have signed this petition.

As we've already heard, MBC is the leading cause of death in women aged 35 to 64 in the UK, and much more needs to be done to prevent the postcode lottery in accessing appropriate care. The fact that Wales has just one dedicated secondary breast cancer clinical nurse specialist is contrary to the National Institute for Health and Care Excellence guidelines on key workers for metastatic breast cancer. It's an appalling situation that leaves potentially hundreds of people without adequate support. Moreover, I also think it has a knock-on effect of creating the impression that those in power in Wales do not care for those living with MBC, which I'm sure the Minister will agree is certainly not the case.

From speaking with the petitioners, what struck me the most was that many of them felt that they had had to fight for their diagnosis, and they were continually being fobbed off in the build-up to that diagnosis, and that basic support and information was lacking after it. 

We have discussed the lack of and inconsistent distribution of nurses in the Welsh NHS departments and across health boards many times in this Chamber, and I'm fearful that this petition will fall on deaf ears and will be seen simply as another complaint to add to the list. But, I would urge the Minister to recognise that providing these specialist nurses should be more than just a tick-box exercise. Many people living with MBC are genuinely fearful for their lives every day, and having the correct support can drastically improve outcomes of living with MBC.

This petition is also asking for a national register of those living with MBC, because at present, there's an insufficient understanding of the national picture, which would allow for a more joined-up approach to providing care, and a better measure of the impact of interventions, and I cannot see how, with all the technological tools we have at our disposal, this hasn't already been done. I don't think even cost is an issue—I think it is more about the limitations of our health boards to find the necessary time and expertise to come together and design and implement models of data collection that will be able to provide suitable evidence to inform long-term diagnosis and treatment plans.

Minister, this is where you are asked to intervene. The community of those living with MBC needs your support. They need you to provide impetus to ensure that health boards are not missing easy opportunities to diagnose MBC and allowing those who are suffering to be left behind. Minister, if a national database was created, it would help improve the understanding of MBC amongst the population, and this certainly would help provide better treatment plans, help control and delay certain variants of the disease and relive symptoms, allowing people to live well for as long as possible. I urge everyone here to support the petition, and I urge the Government to implement its recommendations. Thank you.

From the outset, like my fellow colleagues of the Petitions Committee, I wanted to say that Tassia should be proud of her work and proud of her petition. In this job, and in life, to be honest, the people who inspire the most are those we take their experiences of adversity and use them to influence good. Champions are rarely without their own scars. They are the strongest of us and the best of us, and I think if anyone has followed Tassia over the past week or so in the news, or has had the pleasure of meeting her, I don't think her strength could be disputed by anyone. Even today, she's been in the Senedd meeting Members, campaigning right up until this debate.

Tassia herself is living with metastatic breast cancer, and her experiences living with it have driven her to campaign for clear, evidence-based interventions to improve the lives of people living with MBC. People living with MBC in Wales are being badly let down by the system. I have to say it is shocking that we still don't have an accurate, up-to-date figure of how many people are currently living with secondary breast cancer in the UK. The reality is: when you don't know who is alive and for how long, then how do you accurately identify trends? How do you ensure that plans are not based on assumptions? Getting the accurate data is crucial.

There's a very clear frustration amongst those with MBC that they are being told the pathways exist and that care is up to scratch. There seems to be a disconnect between what the Government thinks and what happens on the ground. That has been the driving force of this petition—for the 14,000 people who signed it, for the 277 MBC patients and care givers who signed an open letter highlighting their concerns relating to care, and to the patients who have fed back to Macmillan in surveys.

Currently, Wales has just one dedicated secondary breast cancer clinical nurse specialist. Breast Cancer Now research found that only 68 per cent of respondents in Wales were given the name of a CNS at diagnosis, meaning that thousands do not have access to a CNS and the crucial support they provide. The Welsh Government had previously established a task and finish group to assess the need for secondary breast cancer nurses, but, as yet, no outcomes have been apparent. The Welsh Government need to take urgent action to address the shortfall of CNSs, including providing the investment needed to recruit and train enough CNSs to support people with secondary breast cancer now and in the future. The Welsh Government should also work with health boards to create a full-time secondary breast cancer nurse role in each health board and trust in Wales. Macmillan, I was told today, are funding one of the first in Cwm Taf. Welsh Government needs to follow suit.

The aim of this petition is to improve the quality of life for those who have MBC. Its aims will help repair Wales's failures when it comes to supporting the needs of MBC patients. Buffy quoted Tassia's open letter, and to follow on from that quote from Tassia:

'Now consider the feeling of impending dread as you realise the system you supported your whole life withheld the knowledge from you that could have potentially prevented this from happening and is also making you face your end alone?'

Wales can and should implement these two policies, should implement the aims of this petition, to help improve the quality of life for those living with MBC. This may be Tassia's petition, but she speaks for so many.

When metastatic breast cancer patients tell us they feel let down, we have to recognise that they are being let down, and I want to pay tribute to Tassia and all those who campaign on behalf of patients past and present. But the key thing to remember here is that there will be future patients too, and it's because of them that the campaigners campaign. That is why they petition. That is why they feel let down by the current response of Welsh Government. We know what the asks are, we know the need for those key nurse roles, and we know that Welsh Government has to act now to give future patients the chance for the best treatment possible and the best chance of survival.

I call on the Minister for Health and Social Services, Eluned Morgan.

Diolch yn fawr, Dirprwy Lywydd. Thank you to the Petitions Committee for bringing forward this debate during Breast Cancer Awareness Month. I'd like to welcome the petitioners to the Chamber, Tassia in particular, and others who have campaigned so vigorously on this matter. I'd like to thank the Chair of petitions, Jack Sargeant, and also the chair of the cross-party group on cancer, David Rees, who I know has raised this matter with me on several occasions. And I just want to give notice that I will give some of my speech in Welsh.

This is a really important issue, and I want to reassure all those people in Wales facing a diagnosis of metastatic breast cancer that we most definitely will not leave you behind. Many of those who've already spoken have explained the difficulties people with a diagnosis of metastatic breast cancer will face, so I'm not going to repeat that other than to say that I do understand to a certain extent how difficult a time it is for families in that situation, as my brother's family was one of those affected. I have seen up close the impact it has, not just on the person suffering but also on the wider family.

I wrote to the Petitions Committee quite recently to explain my commitment to improving cancer services and recovering from the impact of the pandemic. In it, I explained that I expect people presenting to the health service with metastatic breast cancer to be supported not only by a multiprofessional team, but also with specialist nursing input as necessary. I also expect everyone presenting with cancer to receive a holistic needs assessment to ensure they have the support that they need. Although it must be up to health boards to deploy their available workforce in line with professional standards and in a way that's equitable for other types of cancer, I'm pleased to report that the south-west Wales cancer centre has introduced specialist nursing for secondary breast cancer, and the north Wales cancer treatment centre is in the process of doing so. Further discussions are under way between the NHS and the third sector about the possibility of posts in the south-east of Wales.

The Wales Cancer Network has done quite a bit of work with the third sector, breast clinicians and health boards to review secondary breast cancer services and patient experience. It has developed a series of recommendations that are being taken now to the network board in November for consideration.

Specialist clinicians in the Wales Cancer Network have also noted how patients should be treated across Wales in a pathway that's agreed at a national level. Next year, we will introduce a national clinical audit of metastatic breast cancer services in order to help improve the care that people receive.

So, just to be clear, the petition calls for better collection of data on metastatic cancer, and I hope that the petitioners will be pleased to hear that I've approved additional funding to introduce a national clinical audit of metastatic breast cancer in Wales. Providing a better service in terms of planning data is one of the reasons why we're investing £11 million in a new cancer information system for Wales.

We have noted our broader approach in the quality statement for cancer. The statement includes an expectation that the cancer workforce will be planned to meet the anticipated demand, particularly in clinical and medical oncology, specialist cancer nurses, physical medicine, radiographers and therapeutics. We are now working with the health service through the planning and accountability processes in order to ensure that they deliver this. And as we come out of the impacts of the pandemic, we must continue to focus on the recovery of cancer services and to reduce any impact on outcomes. More generally, I want to take this opportunity to encourage people to reduce their risk of breast cancer by doing everything they can, by living a healthy life, and encourage women to take part in breast cancer screening. But when women need support and treatment for breast cancer, my intention is that the health service can provide that. Thank you. 

I call on the Chair of the committee to reply to the debate. 

Diolch, Deputy Presiding Officer, and can I extend my thanks to the Minister for responding, and, of course, to members of my committee, Rhun ap Iorwerth, and to Buffy for her contribution and tribute to her close friend as well—very powerful contributions? I also extend my thanks to the Business Committee for bringing forward this urgent debate and the way that it was scheduled. 

Presiding Officer, it's a usual point for me to try to sum up the comments of Members, but today I feel like I have a more important duty to do. I've always tried to say that the Petitions Committee is the people's committee, and I've promised to try and amplify their voices— 

Will the Member give way?

Yes, of course.

Thank you. Would you agree with me that actually the true heroes in our society don't wear capes, they are people like the petitioner, who put these petitions forward to really raise issues like this on a national stage? And do you agree with me there should be more opportunity for issues like this to be debated in the Senedd so everyone across Wales, like the petitioner, can raise these vitally important points to us as the elected officials here?

Can I thank James Evans for that intervention? I fully agree with James, and the point that I will try to make now is that it's not the likes of us, James, in suits sitting in this Chamber who make real change, it's people like Tassia. Tassia was gracious enough, Minister, to provide me with some thoughts on the letter you mentioned you sent to me on 14 October: with regard to pathways, the Welsh Government do have a series of optimised pathways, but there are concerns that there is no specific pathway for metastatic breast cancer, and we should be looking to address that. In terms of specialised nursing, I think we should be mindful—and I read the words of Tassia here—we should be mindful when stating it is not the Welsh Government's role to specify which conditions should benefit from dedicated specialist nursing support, because this is exactly what we do with other conditions.

Just briefly touching on the audit, I do think it is welcome that the audit has been announced, and the £11 million that you have announced today in the Chamber, but there will be some frustrations I know, from conversations I've had with campaigners, that it has taken perhaps too long.

I know I'm running out of time, so I will end with this, Presiding Officer: 277 metastatic breast cancer patients and care givers in Wales have signed Tassia's open letter, which we've all heard and agrees with the petition. Tassia and the other 14,105 people have signed a petition to do better. In my own words now, Presiding Officer, these statistics should be ringing in all of our ears around the Chamber, and of everyone involved in delivering services, the Minister and the wider Welsh Government and, of course, our health boards, who we all should be holding to account. Diolch yn fawr.

The proposal is to note the petition. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

We move on to item 9, the Welsh Conservatives' debate: business rates. I call on Peter Fox to move the motion. 

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer, and I move the motion tabled in the name of my colleague the Member for Clwyd West, and welcome the opportunity to bring forward this debate this evening. Businesses in Wales are fundamental to our economic prosperity. They are important drivers for growth, creating jobs, wealth, and they underpin our communities, with many providing important services to local people. Put simply: their success is Wales’s success. But—and we’ve heard this many times in the Chamber and beyond—many businesses have experienced some very difficult times over the past few years. From the pandemic to the current energy crisis and inflationary pressures, businesses have been subject to a range of challenges that have held back their potential.

These issues don’t just impact on businesses directly, such as by increasing overheads, but they have indirect impacts as well, and we know that the inflation and cost-of-living crisis will reduce discretionary spending powers, meaning businesses face another hit to their income streams. Many have tried to absorb price pressures over the last few months already, but clearly this is not sustainable in the longer term. We know that businesses and business owners are really concerned.

I welcome the various measures that have been announced by both the UK and Welsh Governments in relation to supporting businesses. Just a few examples of this include the UK Government’s furlough scheme, which provided significant help for businesses during the pandemic, as well as the energy bill relief scheme that was recently announced. The Welsh Government’s amendment, as noted on the agenda, also lists the support that it provides to businesses across Wales, which of course, we on this side of the Chamber really do welcome.

But more help is needed. There’s not just a cost-of-living crisis at the moment, but a cost-of-doing-business crisis as well, and this is why the Welsh Conservative group will not be supporting the Government amendment. Because if the cost of doing business was reduced, then they wouldn’t need such substantial support to relieve the burden of business rates. And unfortunately, the Government amendment does not capture the need to reconsider business taxation to ensure that it’s not a regressive barrier to aspiration and business growth.

As it currently stands, businesses worry that making improvements to their premises—including efforts to make them more sustainable, for instance—will cause the rateable value of their property to rise, meaning they would be forced to pay more just because they wanted to expand their business or improve their prospects, or even, in the case of energy improvements, to reduce their overheads and help the environment. In fact, the way that business rates work means that firms are forced to pay tax before they’ve even had any income, let alone made any profit. Add in the fact that rates in Wales are relatively high in comparison with other countries—Wales currently has the highest business rates in Great Britain—and you can see why the sector is calling for a re-think as to how we tax prosperity.

Presiding Officer, I’m not going to pretend that I have all the answers, or indeed that this debate will solve the issue; it’s a complex situation and it’s going to take time to work with business to strike the right balance between supporting public services via taxation and economic growth.

I note the suggestion of a land value tax, as argued for in the Plaid Cymru amendment. However, unfortunately, we on this side will not be able to support that amendment either as things stand. Whilst I recognise that such a reform does have some benefits compared to the current system, we really have to be careful about the impacts that such a wide-reaching reform as proposed may have, as I’m sure Members will all agree. For example, there are many small businesses that are currently in the centre of towns and cities where land values are expensive. Could such reform drive them out of our high streets, where their presence is much needed? We have to ask ourselves what do we really want: vibrant town centres, or something else? Would a land value tax encourage people to set up more online businesses rather than having a physical presence, to avoid paying this tax? How, then, would we ensure that online businesses are fairly taxed, and are treated equally to those that have a physical premises? But I do look forward to hearing from the Plaid benches on how such a tax could work in practice, and ensure that the pot of money currently raised via non-domestic rates would remain the same whilst being fairer on businesses.

However, there are things that could be introduced over the coming months to help businesses survive whilst wider reforms are considered. For example, the Federation of Small Businesses Cymru have called for the reintroduction of a 100 per cent business rates holiday for retail, leisure and hospitality businesses whilst this uncertain economic climate continues. At the very least, there could be a consideration of extending the current 50 per cent relief scheme beyond its current lifetime during these difficult times, as businesses currently are fearful of the cliff edge they face. Or the Government could maintain the freeze on the multiplier, so that businesses can at least plan with some sort of certainty. I would also argue that we could look at splitting the multiplier, much like what we see in other parts of the UK, so that small businesses are not treated in the same way as large businesses, and that would encourage growth. FSB Cymru have also raised some very valid points, such as minimising the cost of appeals for businesses and ensuring that all businesses are aware of the various support schemes that already exist.

I know that the Minister is going to say that these things cost money, and I’m aware that there isn’t an unlimited pot of money for the Welsh Government to use, but it still has the levers it needs to provide help to businesses through this period, like it previously has done. We can use existing resources better to provide support that doesn’t just reduce the business rate burden, but helps businesses to grow, reducing the reliance on additional financial support from Government to pay the rates.

Presiding Officer, I look forward to hearing the contributions of Members from across the Chamber this afternoon, and I hope that we can use this debate to constructively discuss how best we can support Welsh businesses, not just through these difficult times, but beyond, so we can help build a stronger, more prosperous economy for all. In summary, Presiding Officer, I ask Members to support the original motion and to oppose amendments 1 and 2. Thank you.

I have selected the two amendments to the motion. I call on the Minister for finance to move formally amendment 1.

Formally.

That has been moved. I call on Llyr Gruffydd to move amendment 2, tabled in the name of Siân Gwenllian.

Diolch, Llywydd. Can I thank the Member for opening the debate, although I think that today’s debate shouldn’t really be about which part of the UK has the highest or the lowest business rates level? I think, and you acknowledge, that it needs to be a wider, more sophisticated discussion, really, around whether in the first place, in my view, the business rates system itself is the best approach, and whether there’s a fairer and a more effective way of doing it. Our amendment hints that we have a particular view on that.

But it really is an important issue, rightly raised, because business rates are one of the biggest costs for business in Wales. It’s regularly listed as one of the heaviest burdens that many of our businesses face. But of course it’s also, at the same time, an important stream of income for local authorities, as was acknowledged. So, there is a balancing act to be performed here and we have to ensure that the system we use is both fair and progressive, but also collects the necessary revenue that is so important to public finances.

I’m particularly mindful here, of course, of the interests of small and medium-sized businesses within this whole equation. We all know that there are various relief schemes that have been touched upon, and much has been done to provide support to those businesses who have struggled because of various impacts from Brexit, the pandemic, and now, recently, the inflationary crisis. But we also know that not everybody has had access to the support that they felt that they needed, and many of us will have dealt with casework in our regions and constituencies where there were people falling through those cracks. And regardless of whether they were supported or not, many businesses now, as we know, find themselves torn between having to grapple with the additional costs, and do you increase your prices or do you try and remain competitive, and it’s a gargantuan challenge for many of our businesses. So, not only does increasing inflation, the energy costs, staff shortages, debt repayments for many businesses, not only does all that have an economic cost, but there’s also a human cost as well, isn’t there, in terms of the stress and strain for those individuals trying to make ends meet. But all told, the picture doesn’t look very sustainable as things stand.

So, we should have a tax policy that not only is fair, but that also incentivises entrepreneurs here in Wales in the right ways. We know as well that business rates are largely seen as unfair and regressive, and the Minister, in fairness, has said previously that she wants to move towards creating a fairer Wales and is committed to exploring a land value tax, with various pieces of work being done around that. So, it would be good in your response, Minister, to this debate today to explain where you are now on much of this work, and maybe you could update us on timescales and, hopefully, reiterate your commitment to exploring and developing options around the land value tax.

We've seen research, of course, from Bangor University showing that a land value tax can be a more equitable system, and as the reforms you previously outlined are proposed to happen over, I think, a four-year period, if I recall, then I hope there will be regular opportunities for us here to scrutinise progress, to make sure that the voice of businesses, local authorities and others, of course, are central to that whole process. For me, land value tax does offer fairness and efficiency. It's pretty straightforward to collect, I'd imagine; it's very hard to avoid paying land value tax—you can't hide it offshore as you can for other things very often. It can act as a strong disincentive to property speculation, because landowners who accumulate prime land for that purpose would clearly face a bigger bill. And that, in turn, I'd hope would help smooth out cycles of boom and bust, potentially making property more affordable to young people.

In addition, a land value tax could encourage development, because people would have an incentive to put idle and under-used land to more productive use. While most taxes tend to discourage investment or interfere in markets, land value taxes don't distort economic activity; rather, they help increase long-term stability and growth—and heaven knows, we need a bit of that these days—by fostering more productive use of capital. And, of course, critically, it helps Government finances by bringing in revenue efficiently and quickly.

The assessment by Bangor University concluded that land values in Wales provide a large enough tax base to ensure that a land value tax could raise revenues equivalent to those raised by the current local tax regime in Wales. But, of course, there is a lot of work to be done. There are a number of questions and a number of challenges that need to be overcome, and many have been referred to earlier. But, of course, we're not proposing to rush headlong into this, but, done properly, I believe it would be a fairer and more equitable system.

It's one that's gained political salience in the UK in recent years, with commitments from Labour, from the Liberal Democrats, Greens, Plaid Cymru here proposing this in our amendment. More than 30 countries have adopted various types of land value tax, including Australia, New Zealand, Kenya, Taiwan, Singapore, Denmark, some US states as well. So, in proposing the Plaid Cymru amendment today, I'm asking Members of the Senedd to support a clear statement that Wales wants to be next.

There are 126,700 non-domestic properties in Wales liable for business rates, and I take my hat off to them. Business rates have increased by 10 per cent in the last six years; compare that with 3 per cent in England, 2.9 per cent in Scotland. That's making Wales the most business-unfriendly corner of the United Kingdom. The FSB's national chairman stated that the current business rate system is contributing to empty shops. And when we see an empty high street, it isn't just the fact that there aren't the businesses there; it doesn't look good to see empty shops on a high street. It actually brings down the value of other shops.

Eighty eight per cent of businesses believe that you should be using tax breaks to boost growth, and I welcome the retail, leisure and hospitality rates relief scheme, but it only stretches to 50 per cent relief with a cap of £110,000. And I believe what FSB is saying to be true. We should reintroduce the 100 per cent business rates holiday for retail, leisure and hospitality businesses. To put it short, some businesses could shut up shop and simply trade online, and we do not want that to happen. We should be rewarding their presence on our high streets, keeping them as vital, living areas that people can frequent.

Will you take an intervention?

Yes. 

Perhaps one way forward would be to charge online retailers as if they were on the high street. 

Well, do you know what, I can't disagree with that, Mike, actually? And I did listen that time. [Laughter.] I do think you make a very valid point, because—

You'll probably be Chancellor before long. [Laughter.]

Or Home Secretary. Oh, Home Secretary's gone. [Laughter.] Sorry. 

There is a need for common sense in your dealings with the VOA. I know how frustrated you must get, because when I try to work on behalf of a constituent on valuations, it can take up to two years. I've raised it with the valuation office, and if I'm having difficulty, it must be difficult, but, somehow, you must pursue those conversations. All businesses on Mostyn Street will have to go to appeal, of course, when the new rateable values are published. And I just think that the VOA appeal process, as I've mentioned—. I've even got some businesses at the moment in Aberconwy waiting five years for their appeals to be heard. So, somehow, there has to be some liaison. Now, I've had this out over the years with the First Minister, and other Ministers, and their argument to me is, 'Oh, the VOA, it's a UK Government department'. But, I'm sorry, it's the Welsh Government that's procuring the service of the VOA from the VOA. So, in my book, if I'm tendering for or if I'm procuring a service myself, I have a say in how good or bad that service is. So, I don't think the excuse is good enough, for you as a Welsh Government to say, 'Well, it's UK Government, the VOA, it doesn't come under us'. You are procuring, using taxpayers' money, so I firmly believe that you should have some levels of expectation on the standard of their workings.

We know that we've got a climate and energy crisis. I've already mentioned today some of the unbelievable costs that some of my businesses are facing. I've had people writing to me about this, and I've had to say, 'Well, actually, energy comes under the UK Government'. But they come back to me straight away, and say, 'But I'm asking what will the Welsh Government do to help us as businesses'. And to me, business rates is a no-brainer. That is one of the ways in which you can actually help those businesses that are really suffering.

The fact remains that the businesses in Wales, the businesses across the UK, are the backbone of the economy of our country. Not only do they want to pay their own way, provide a good service, but they want to employ. It's become a lot more difficult now for apprenticeships going through retail, going through the hospitality sector—it is now, right now. There's been lots of focus on what the UK Government is doing. Where business rates are concerned, I genuinely believe that you could pioneer a way forward for businesses—that's if you have the appetite and the will to do it. Diolch.

Let's be under no illusions, business is the backbone of our economy—from the small business owner on the high street to the larger companies that employ hundreds and thousands of people across the nation. The most prosperous countries in the world are where businesses can thrive, and a key part of that success is less red tape and less tax imposed on those businesses. In Wales, we have the highest business rates, as Peter Fox has said, in the whole of Great Britain. We have the worst gross domestic product outputs per head of any part of the United Kingdom. And this is after 23 years of devolution, and 23 years of Labour control, so I think it's about time that businesses had a friend in Cardiff Bay.

There are businesses in my communities in Brecon and Radnorshire that have cited business rates as a reason that they cannot afford to carry on, that business rates as they are currently set are simply not affordable for many, especially in a time of economic problems, triggered by Putin's disgraceful war in Ukraine and global market uncertainty. They've also had the devastating legacy of COVID-19 restrictions to deal with, and the effects of that will be felt for decades to come, with some businesses leaving the high street, never to return again. It's undoubtedly a difficult time for business. So, reforming business rates, as we as Welsh Conservatives believe, would make Wales a competitive nation and throw businesses a much-needed lifeline at a time when they need it the most. And I would urge the Welsh Government to consider this in the Minister's response.

Businesses aren't just good for business' sake. They provide jobs, they increase prosperity, they make our towns and villages and cities more attractive, and they encourage innovation, and improve value and choice for customers. Reforming business rates in Wales would make us a far more attractive location for inward investment, which will boost jobs, growth and prosperity. But I do agree, as others have said, we do need to look at wider measures that could support our business sector in retail and hospitality, because we are seeing pubs shutting at a huge rate, and that is something that needs to stop. So, let's put an end to the weariness that has been imposed upon Welsh businesses and give them the tools and the freedoms to prosper in a way that will benefit our economy and the people of Wales for generations to come. Diolch, Llywydd.

I'm grateful to have the opportunity to take part in this debate today. As a former county councillor, but not reaching the dizzy heights of council leader like my two esteemed colleagues either side of me, I am acutely aware of the importance of that revenue business rates raise for local authorities, but also the inadequacies of the current funding formula and the raw deal that many councils receive when it comes to budget settlements and distribution of funds. It is for this reason that I am grateful to have the opportunity to contribute.

It came as no real shock, really, that businesses in Wales pay the highest business rates in the whole of Great Britain, with Welsh businesses paying up to 4.5 per cent more than other businesses across GB. The fact that Wales is the only nation in Great Britain to levy a one-size-fits-all standard rate, whatever the business size or turnover, seems both counterintuitive and dismissive of the breadth of businesses here in Wales, especially SMEs. As my colleague the Member for Monmouth so eloquently put in opening the debate, businesses in Wales are fundamental to our economic prosperity. This stands just as true for those independent small traders as it does for the bigger multinationals, both of whom play an important role on our high streets. So, while the sector has faced uncertainty over the last few years, this Welsh Government surely has a duty to do what it can, with the levers it has, to mitigate some of these pressures and help businesses to navigate a route back to growth and prosperity.

Many of us in this Chamber today would probably proudly boast of a high street in their constituency full of independent traders, which acts as an exemplar as to how we would like to see high streets across Wales look. For me, it is Narberth, and that's not just because my office is on the high street, but I'm sure it's a contributing factor—a high street full of independent traders, high-quality eateries and family businesses drawing punters into the town. Members have looked to other towns across Wales and the positive examples that they have in their constituencies, but, for all these success stories, we also have areas where businesses have been priced out of the town centre. The historic towns of Pembroke Dock in Pembrokeshire or Whitland in Carmarthenshire are sadly examples where, over the last generation, businesses have closed and shops remain empty. One of the contributing factors to this is the inflexible business rates regime that they have to operate under. Towns such as Narberth greatly benefited from previous rural rate relief schemes, which did much to establish the town as a shopping destination for visitors and locals. I understand that such schemes remain at the discretion of individual local authorities, but I would be keen, Minister, to understand whether the Welsh Government is encouraging their local government colleagues to make use of these levers that remain at their disposal.

Long before I was elected to this place, my colleagues on this side of the Chamber have called for businesses under a rateable value of £15,000 to be exempt from business rates altogether, and for businesses that are valued under £18,000 to pay a rate that tapers up in value to that full amount. This would enable more money to be reinvested in small businesses, especially in their earlier years of operation. If our policy is not palatable to the Welsh Government, could I urge the Minister to give consideration to a suggestion made by the Federation of Small Businesses regarding when start-up businesses should begin to pay business rates? Rather than landing a new business with a rates bill from day one, would it be worth exploring the option of a rate holiday for, say, the first 12, 18 or 24 months of operation? This would see more businesses start, increase the chances of long-term survival and increase the numbers of premises being occupied and job opportunities created.

Minister, it's obvious that no-one has all the answers to this problem. There are a range of solutions, however, that can go some way to address some of the challenges that lie ahead. I urge the Chamber to support our motion today and show businesses in Wales that the Welsh Government is, in fact, on their side. Diolch, Llywydd.

The Minister for finance to now contribute to the debate. Rebecca Evans.

Diolch, Llywydd. The Welsh Government is absolutely on the side of Welsh businesses, and we fully recognise the challenges faced by businesses, and other ratepayers under the current economic conditions, and, indeed, the Welsh Government is also exposed to the same budget pressures.

Non-domestic rates have been an important part of the local government finance system for more than 30 years, raising more than £1.1 billion annually, and this is not a trivial contribution to the funding required to sustain the local services that we all rely on, nor, indeed, is it a trivial contribution to the Welsh Government's annual budget. But we have to remember that every single penny goes back into supporting local authorities and the public services that they provide. I do recognise that ensuring that vital revenue is collected to fund those local services that we all use, and securing the fair and sustainable contribution from ratepayers is a challenging balance to achieve. But I do challenge those who would like to see us go even further than we already do—and we already provide a great deal of support—to say which of those public services you would want to see cut or reduced to accommodate that extra support, because that is the honest choice that we're facing when we have these conversations. I don't think it's enough to say that we should just use existing resources better, because that doesn't really engage with the enormity of what's being asked. These are open conversations that we should be having about priorities, and I'm open to having those conversations. 

But, over recent years, we have capped the increases in the multiplier. Between 2018-19 and 2020-21, we have used the lower measure of inflation, the consumer prices index, to moderate annual uplifts in the multiplier. I know that's been warmly welcomed by industry representatives. We've also since frozen the multiplier in 2021-22 and 2022-23, and that recognises the prolonged impact of the coronavirus pandemic on businesses and other ratepayers, and let's remember that that has saved ratepayers in Wales almost £200 million on their rates bills since 2018-19, compared to the revenue that we would be raising if we had increased the multiplier annually by the higher measure of inflation, the retail prices index. 

The multiplier is one factor that determines a ratepayer's bill, and it should not be considered in isolation. Another factor, of course, is the rateable value of the property. Our tax base in Wales has an average rateable value of around £19,000, and that, clearly, is very different from that in England, which has a much higher average of around £32,000. That drives a large difference in the average liability of ratepayers. Reliefs are then applied to the bills that reduce or remove the liability for the majority of ratepayers in Wales, so I do have to say that, as a result of the differences between our tax bases and our fully funded relief schemes, average bills in Wales are considerably lower than those in England.

We have provided unprecedented financial support to businesses and other ratepayers over recent years, and particularly since the onset of the coronavirus pandemic. Our permanent relief schemes mean that 44 per cent of the tax base do not pay any domestic rates at all, regardless of the level of the multiplier. This year, we're providing an additional £116 million of targeted relief to businesses in the retail, leisure and hospitality sectors. To ensure businesses in Wales are sufficiently supported, and reflecting the nature of our tax base, we've invested an additional £20 million on top of the consequential funding from the UK Government for this purpose, again demonstrating the different tax base that we have here in Wales. But, as a result of our permanent reliefs and this additional support, we're spending over £350 million this year to provide 70 per cent of properties in Wales with full or partial support with their rate bills.

The next non-domestic rates revaluation will take effect on 1 April 2023, based on property values as at 1 April 2021. This means that the rateable values will reflect the impact of the coronavirus pandemic, as well as changes in the tax base since the last revaluation. The VOA will publish a draft new rating list by the end of this year, and we'll assess the impact of revaluation on our tax base. 

But, it is right that our non-domestic rates system reflects the unique nature of the tax base here in Wales. On 29 March, I set out a programme of non-domestic rates reform that will be delivered over the next four years. I've since launched a consultation on a range of reforms, including more frequent revaluations and a range of measures to better enable the Welsh Government to adapt the system to meet the needs of Wales in the future, and, of course, appeals also form part of that consultation.

Our plans include the further exploration of a local land value tax as a possible replacement for non-domestic rates and council tax. Replacing the existing local taxes would be a major undertaking requiring significant investment, and it is vital that we have a thorough understanding of the costs and the impacts. I have set out my intention to produce a potential road map for this work towards the end of this Senedd term. I was pleased to hear the reference to the technical assessment of the potential for a local land value tax in Wales by Bangor University. That was work that we commissioned in the Welsh Government, and it does set out, as we've heard, that there are a range of questions that yet need to be answered, and that a lot of work does remain to be done in this particular area. But it is something that we are committed to continuing to pursue and explore.

On the issue of digital sales, this is the domain of the UK Government, but just to reassure colleagues that my officials are very much engaged with their counterparts on this particular issue.

So, whilst our interventions over recent years—[Interruption.] Yes, of course. 

As I said to Janet Finch-Saunders earlier, why can't we charge the online sellers in their big warehouses as if they were on the high street?

I know that the UK Government is exploring a range of ways that a digital tax might be introduced, and I know that they'd be keen to hear from colleagues in the Senedd as well, in terms of ideas of how such a thing could be brought in. Because, as I say, officials in the Welsh Government are having some discussions to further understand what the plans and opportunities might be and different models for introducing a digital sales tax. That is a responsibility of the UK Government, but something that we are engaging in.

Whilst our interventions over recent years demonstrate that the non-domestic rates system is one of the tools at our disposal to provide support to businesses, we mustn't lose sight of the fact that the purpose of local taxes is to raise revenue for local services. Our extensive package of reliefs and interventions to moderate the multiplier is fully funded by the Welsh Government. There's been no impact on the funding available to local authorities, and that's not easy to achieve. It has arisen from difficult and carefully considered decisions about how to spend a finite budget to the optimal benefit of all of the people of Wales.

For more than 30 years, non-domestic rates have been an important part of the way that we fund our public services here in Wales, and I'm committed to making improvements to the system in line with our ambitions for a fairer, greener and stronger Wales, whilst maintaining the strengths of the existing local tax. I urge Members to vote for the Government amendment today.

Sam Rowlands to reply to the debate.

Diolch, Llywydd, and can I say what a pleasure it is to close today's Welsh Conservative debate on business rates? I'll be very brief in my closing. I want to thank Members for their contributions, raising important points around the fact that, in Wales, business rates are the highest in Great Britain. Plaid Cymru, of course, raised their proposal for a single land and property tax. I think Peter Fox very clearly outlined why there are concerns about that. I would call, Llywydd, on all Members to support our Welsh Conservative motion and oppose Welsh Government and Plaid amendments today. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Therefore the vote is deferred until voting time. 

We are now at voting time. Unless three Members wish for the bell to be rung, I will proceed directly to voting time. Are there any three Members who wish for the bell to be rung? One, two, three. Yes. So, the bell will be rung.

Before I call the vote, can I just remind all Members of the new guidance on voting and that all Members who are on the estate are expected to be in the Chamber to vote? I will expect a reason from any Member who may be on the estate but voting from their office tonight to be given to me, and I will expect any reason for that happening in the future to be sent to me in advance. I think the Members know who they are, or who he or she is, who are voting from their offices at this point. I will accept their votes for tonight, but this isn't going to be acceptable into the future. So, that's a 'next strike and you're out' warning.

We'll move to the vote. I first call for a vote on item 3, the legislative consent motion on the Energy Prices Bill. I call for a vote on the motion, tabled in the name of Julie James. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 40, no abstentions, 10 against. Therefore the motion is agreed. 

The next votes are on item 9, the Welsh Conservatives' debate on business rates. I call for a vote on the motion tabled in the name of Darren Millar. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 14, no abstentions, 36 against, and therefore the motion is not agreed. 

We'll move now to amendment 1 and I call for a vote on amendment 1, tabled in the name of Lesley Griffiths. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 26, no abstentions, 24 against. Therefore, amendment 1 is agreed. 

Amendment 2 is next, in the name of Siân Gwenllian. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 11, no abstentions, 39 against. Therefore, amendment 2 is not agreed.

And a final vote on the motion as amended. 

Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 26, no abstentions, 24 against. The motion as amended is therefore agreed. 

That concludes voting. 

We will now move to the short debate. If Members who are leaving the Chamber could do so quietly before I call on Altaf Hussain to speak to the topic he has chosen. Altaf Hussain.

Thank you very much, Presiding Officer. I have agreed to give a minute of my time to Joel James. My short debate this afternoon will focus on living with cancer. 

We all know the stats: one in two of us will develop cancer at some point in our lifetime. Cancer used to be a certain death sentence, but thankfully more and more people are surviving cancer. Across the UK, over 3 million people are still alive at least five years after receiving a cancer diagnosis. In Wales, 70,000 men and 90,000 women are living with cancer, and the total numbers are expected to rise to 0.25 million by the end of this decade.

It's widely acknowledged that much of our success against cancer is thanks to earlier diagnosis. However, regardless of the advances in screening and treatments, a cancer diagnosis can have life-altering consequences—consequences such as health issues that develop during treatment and can have a lasting impact even five years after finishing treatment.

Long-term effects impact on both physical and psychological health. Issues include fatigue, mobility problems, pain, breathlessness, malnutrition, depression and anxiety. There are also the late effects to contend with. Late effects are defined as physical or psychological health problems that present six months or later post treatment and could affect whole organ systems as a consequence of cancer treatments. Examples include cardiovascular toxicities, reduced bone density or hypothyroidism. There is a lack of evidence on how many people are affected by these lasting consequences of cancer, although Macmillan Cancer Support estimated in 2013 that approximately half a million people UK-wide had health issues post treatment. This number is expected to have risen sharply over the past decade.

In 2015, Macmillan Cancer Support interviewed people affected by cancer in a UK-wide study into their social and emotional care needs and found that 64 per cent of respondents had practical support needs and a further 78 per cent of respondents needed emotional support following diagnosis. Studies have proven the impact prehabilitation and rehabilitation can have on those living with cancer.

The concept of cancer rehab was developed in the United States during the 1960s, but the world has been slow to adopt it. A Danish study conducted in the early 2000s—the FOCARE research project—found that Danish cancer survivors experienced considerably reduced physical health, possibly as late physical effects of treatment. The problems reported by the cancer survivors suggest that cancer rehabilitation should include these aspects of living after cancer and take account of socioeconomic differences among cancer survivors. The study suggested that these challenges might be addressed optimally in multidimensional rehabilitation programmes.

Cancer rehabilitation involves a wide range of allied health professionals carrying out distinct roles throughout the pathway, such as dietitians, lymphoedema practitioners, occupational therapists, physiotherapists and speech and language therapists. They deliver specialist interventions that complement the skills of other multidisciplinary team members. Different patients will have different rehabilitation needs depending on the type, location and stage of their cancer. It is acknowledged that healthcare professionals, including support workers, may also contribute to the rehabilitation of people affected by cancer. Prehabilitation extends that care to before the treatment pathway.

Physical activity has been described as an underrated 'wonder drug' and more should be done to ensure people living with cancer are aware of its benefits. Macmillan’s Move More service was developed to help people with cancer become more active. Evaluation has shown it has the potential to support people with a range of long-term conditions and lead to behaviour change. This evidence and insight can now be used to ensure physical activity is seen as an integral part of cancer care. Being active before, during and after treatment is safe. It can reduce fatigue, reduce anxiety and depression, help you keep to a healthy weight, strengthen your muscles, improve bone health, improve your flexibility and ability to stretch, improve balance, and increase your confidence. This evidence has been put to great use in my constituency by Dr Rhidian Jones, who, in conjunction with the national exercise referral scheme, set up a prehabilitation programme for cancer patients in Cwm Taf. To quote Rhidian,

'We know that, when a patient is diagnosed with bowel or oesophageal cancer, it is an incredibly daunting time leading up to a major operation. Many of these patients are lacking in physical fitness and are extremely anxious in anticipation of their surgery; both of which can lead to poor outcomes after surgery. The aim of the programme is to improve patients' fitness, mental health and experience leading up to their surgery. As a result of these initial goals, we are seeing fewer postoperative complications and a trend towards shorter stays for our patients in hospital.'

Rhidian’s programme is having a dramatic impact on patients’ long-term chances. Coupled with an extensive cancer rehabilitation programme, we can ensure that patients in Wales do not just survive cancer, not just live with cancer, but live well with cancer. That has to be our priority. That is why I want to see programmes like Rhidian’s available to all cancer patients in Wales, and why we have to have extensive cancer rehabilitation programmes tailored to individual patient needs.

I do have to congratulate the Welsh Government. They have taken a positive stance on prehab and rehab services. In Wales, pre-treatment health optimisation and prehabilitation are explicitly mentioned in the cancer delivery plan for Wales 2016-20. This puts Wales ahead of other UK nations. I am informed by Macmillan that discussions are ongoing with Welsh Government about long-term sustainable prehabilitation delivery and funding. Macmillan have produced their primary care for cancer framework. This framework spans from initial consultation, referral and through to diagnosis and treatment and beyond. Pre-treatment health optimisation in primary care at the point of referral for cancer investigation is a key aspect of this framework.

I hope that the Welsh Government will adopt this framework when it launches their cancer services implementation plan, which is due imminently. However, whilst the quality statement for cancer states that prehabilitation and rehabilitation are key parts of the cancer pathway, this does not fill me with hope that services will be delivered on the ground. Despite commitments in the former cancer delivery plan to prehab and rehab services, the patient experience on the ground did not reflect the plans. Access to rehab has remained a postcode lottery with over a third of patients reporting that they received no post-treatment support at all.

A 2020 study, the 'Qualitative exploration of cancer rehabilitation in South Wales’, found that rehabilitation is not routine in the cancer pathway. Healthcare professionals reported numerous barriers to care provision. One of the main barriers is that cancer rehabilitation is not provided routinely within the cancer pathway. Given the importance of prehab and rehab services to cancer patients, I urge the Minister to commit this afternoon to ensuring that such services are available to and tailored to every single cancer patient in Wales. Thank you.

Can I thank Altaf for giving me a minute of his time? As chair of the cross-party group on liver disease and liver cancer, I want to highlight some of the challenges facing liver cancer patients navigating treatment pathways in Wales. Liver cancer is one of the least survivable, but fastest growing forms of cancer in the UK, and outcomes are shockingly poor. Only 13 per cent of people diagnosed with liver cancer will survive for more than five years after being diagnosed. It has been found that patients with low fitness, as assessed by the cardiopulmonary exercise testing, CPET, have higher mortality and morbidity after surgery. Therefore, prehabilitation has potential as a method to improve CPET values and thus improve outcomes after liver resection for colorectal or liver metastatic. It has also been found to better prepare patients for the often toxic and disabling effects of cancer treatment.

Recent findings from the British Liver Trust's helpline, support groups and surveys show that fewer than 10 per cent of liver cancer patients feel adequately signposted to information about their condition, and many are left confused and unsure of where to go for credible advice on treatment options. There are also disparities in liver cancer care and outcomes across health boards. Therefore, improving access to rehabilitation, personalised information and ensuring equitable access to physical, psychological and nutritional support for liver cancer patients at every stage of the treatment pathway will not only improve patient experience, but, ultimately, could improve outcomes and survival rates for liver cancer patients. With this in mind, I'm keen to know if the Minister will commit to specific targets for prehabilitation and rehabilitation to help improve outcomes for less survivable cancers, such as liver cancer, in the forthcoming NHS cancer services action plan. Thank you.

I call on the Minister for Health and Social Services to reply to the debate—Eluned Morgan.

Diolch yn fawr. Thank you to Altaf Hussain, who is my secret special adviser in the NHS, for bringing forward this short debate and for his recent invitation to Cwm Taf Morgannwg to meet with clinicians delivering those prehabilitation services. I very much look forward to our joint visit next month.

I recognise how important it is to help people get ready for their cancer treatment and for them to be in the best place possible in terms of condition for a good recovery. So, being referred with suspected cancer and then waiting, often in fear, as you've suggested, with a huge degree of uncertainty until the tests and the treatment come around is a really difficult experience for many people.

So, rather than wasting this time and leaving people to cope, we have an opportunity here to get them ready and to empower them to take some control. This is always something they can do, even if it's over a few weeks, to get themselves ready. Actions can include addressing the psychological impact of a diagnosis and developing some coping techniques and strategies. And as you've suggested, people can work on their nutrition and their fitness and their strength so that they are ready to face their treatment and have, as you both suggested, a better chance of recovery afterwards. So, if we can be alongside people, giving them that emotional support, encouraging and supporting people with appropriate changes to their lifestyle, then they'll have a better experience and a better chance of a good outcome.

Prehabilitation enables people with cancer to prepare for cancer treatment, maximising their ability to withstand the side effects. Evidence suggests that prehabilitation delivers better outcomes with fewer complications. If the impact of prehabilitation was achieved by a drug, we'd no doubt be prescribing it, so we need to work together to put this support in place, and that's why we've set a very clear expectation in the quality statement for cancer: prehabilitation and rehabilitation are key parts of that cancer pathway. Included within the quality statement, we've introduced 21 nationally agreed cancer pathways, and these set out how the various cancer-type pathways should function and what should be involved. They all involve prehabilitation at key points in the pathway.

I expect it to become a more common and standardised part of the cancer pathway over the next few years, as health boards develop new ways of working and the evidence base grows. But it's not easy, it's not just as simple as saying, 'Just do it.' The cancer clinical teams and the allied health professionals in particular are already under immense pressure, given the large increase in the number of people being referred for cancer. There's no extra money to throw at this, as we've already been providing every last bit of resource to supporting recovery in services.

That's why it's important that we look at whether we can scale access to prehabilitation through digital through digital services. The Wales Cancer Network has funded pilots, and we have those pilots under way in our health boards, in collaboration with the Bevan Commission, to see if digital solutions can help. The Wales Cancer Network has also appointed a lead medical clinician and a lead cancer allied health professional to help work on this over the next two years. The post will help co-ordinate and guide the health boards' efforts, so that we can put these services in place for more cancer pathways in more health boards in a way that's sustainable. This work will be overseen by an all-Wales cancer prehabilitation group, reporting to the Wales Cancer Network board, as part of the NHS executive.

In last week's cancer conference, health boards were eager to accept the offer of the Wales Cancer Alliance for resources and support for patients waiting on cancer pathways.

More generally, our programme for transforming and modernising care was planned and published in April of this year, and it notes that we will develop and establish a prehabilitation programme to improve outcomes. So, prehabilitation and rehabilitation should be seen as core elements of all care in all pathways. And when one needs any treatment, we must go about it as soon as possible to prepare them for that treatment and to prepare them for what will happen afterwards. We are not delivering the full value of health interventions unless we support people to recover as much as possible, and this means intervening pre and post treatment to secure the best outcomes.

Health and social care organisations are already working on this. We've also launched an amended national rehabilitation framework. It sets out strong and clear principles for prehabilitation and rehabilitation of high quality. Specifically, it seeks to ensure that our health and social care services establish a prehabilitation service that focuses on the ability of the individual to live as independently as possible for as long as possible. The national lead allied health professionals for patient-focused rehabilitation will lead the way on implementing the new framework.

All staff in health and care will be expected to focus positively on rehabilitation and supporting patients. Our allied health professions framework ensures that allied health professionals are available more generally in primary and community care. It also ensures that plenty of prehabilitation and rehabilitation services are provided, and in particular rehabilitation in the community. To make the best use possible of resources and to provide convenient services to patients, I expect services to be integrated and located within the community, and to be focused on the individual rather than the disease.

So, I agree on the need to develop these services, and I do hope that I have conveyed the breadth of the work that is already in the pipeline. Thank you.

Thank you, Minister. That brings today's proceedings to a close.