Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru

Welcome to this Plenary session. Before we begin, I want to set out a few points. This meeting will be held in a hybrid format, with some Members in the Senedd Chamber and others joining by video-conference. All Members participating in proceedings of the Senedd, wherever they may be, will be treated equally. A Plenary meeting held using video-conference, in accordance with the Standing Orders of the Welsh Parliament, constitutes Senedd proceedings for the purposes of the Government of Wales Act 2006. Some of the provisions of Standing Order 34 will apply for today's Plenary meeting, and those are noted on your agenda. 

The first item is questions to the Minister for Finance and Local Government, and the first question is from Siân Gwenllian.

Our approach to gender budgeting in Arfon and across Wales continues to evolve in line with our budget improvement plan and the programme for government. Three pilots are under way and, as well as evaluating their impact, we also continue to learn from international best practice.

Thank you very much. Gross domestic product is the most common measure of national income—a model, of course, that measures the size of the cake and how much we produce with our resources rather than the standard of living and equality. And gender budgeting would use tools such as policy evaluations and impact assessments in order for us to be aware of all the ways in which Government budgets and fiscal policy impact differently on women and men.

One example of using these tools would be the ability to assess funding decisions with regard to public services, which impact women more significantly than men, given that there are more women working in the public sector than there are men. And that is even more relevant to Arfon and Gwynedd—Gwynedd is third in Wales in terms of the proportion of employees working in the public sector. So, I have a great deal of interest in hearing how Government expenditure decisions and fiscal policy are being made through this specific lens and to what extent they are endorsed by organisations, such as the Wales Women's Budget Group.

Thank you very much to Siân Gwenllian for that question. I think she sets out why it is so important that we start to look at our budget through different lenses. GDP is an important source of data and we do have some experimental data looking at GDP on a Welsh-specific level. It's not usable yet, but, as Siân Gwenllian says, that is only one way of looking at things and we have to look at things more creatively to get that proper understanding of the impact of our budgeting decisions on various different groups in society and to take that intersectional look at our decisions as well. And this is one of the reasons why our budget improvement plan outlines our vision and it does include some short-term actions and those medium-term ambitions that we have over the next five years to improve the process of determining our budgets here in Wales through the lens of the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015. As part of this plan, we have three gender budgeting pilots under way at the moment, and all of them will be independently assessed and those findings then will enable us to take that learning through into our more regular budgeting process across the Government. 

The importance of engaging widely is well made as a point as well. So, we do continue to engage with the Wales Women's Budget Group and with other interested parties through the reformed budget improvement and impact advisory group, and that helps us again to develop our approach to gender budgeting. And I'm also really pleased that the Finance Committee in this Senedd is taking a strong interest in this. At the same time, we're looking internationally and working with the Wellbeing Economy Governments network to invigorate our connections with leaders in the world in this area, including in Iceland and Canada. So, there is a lot to learn, but I think our three pilots are going to help us greatly in terms of thinking differently about the way that we look at our budgets here in Wales.

Gender budgeting, as you know, promotes gender equity for women, men and gender-diverse groups. A survey by the Wales Tourism Alliance, UK Hospitality Cymru and the Professional Association of Self Caterers UK on the Welsh Government's proposals for self-catering accommodation and how it affects women and/or unpaid carers, to which 83 per cent of respondents were women, found that 71 per cent of respondents had caring responsibilities for school-age children, a disabled child or partner, or elderly parents; that 69 per cent fitted the self-catering accommodation around those responsibilities; and that 94 per cent were finding it difficult or challenging to run their self-catering accommodation business if an increase in the number of nights required to be available to rent, at 252, and the number of nights actually let to 182, came into force. In most cases, women are the driving force in these businesses. So, what consideration will the Welsh Government give to these businesswomen in Arfon, and across north Wales, when deciding on their proposal to raise the occupancy criteria for self-catering accommodation by 160 per cent before legitimate businesses are exempt from council tax premiums of up to 300 per cent from next April?

Well, I am aware that women, including those with caring responsibilities, and retirees in fact, are well represented amongst operators of self-catering properties. But it's not, however, clear that such operators would be less able than other people to let their properties for more of the year, given the fact that they're operating businesses. There is very little evidence available in this regard, and certainly none that can be validated by the Welsh Government, but I am aware of the concerns that the Member raises. 

The spending priorities for the next three years are set out within the final budget, published in March this year. This has resulted in a number of investments in mid and west Wales, for example, in health, education and transport, alongside our longer term commitment of £55 million to the mid Wales growth fund.

Diolch, Gweinidog. I wanted to ask you about the early progress with the mid Wales growth deal. I understand that some local authorities, including Powys, are concerned about the lack of revenue seed funding to kick start the capital projects identified as part of their programme that would give those communities and local government a real boost. The frustration is that projects are stalling because of that priority given to capital funding rather than revenue funding, and the question that has been put to me is how about greater flexibility around the use of the growth deal funding as revenue funding to kick start those projects. So, therefore, my question is whether there are any steps that could be taken to provide flexibility or to provide that seed funding to local authorities to kick start those projects. Thank you. Diolch yn fawr iawn. 

Thank you for the question. The mid Wales growth deal final deal agreement was, of course, signed by all parties in January of this year, and that does set out how the Welsh Government will work with the UK Government and the Growing Mid Wales board framework on how the deal would be delivered. And that does include those critical underpinning arrangements such as the governance, assurance, monitoring, evaluation and communications attached to this. And the focus now within the region should very much be on developing the shortlisted programme and project business cases, which are evolving as part of the portfolio business case. We anticipate the first draw-down of funding would be, as I say, in 2023-24. We do have officials meeting very regularly, though, with officers from Powys and Ceredigion councils on behalf of the Growing Mid Wales board, and I'll be sure that they do discuss the issues that you've described further. Of course, it's my colleague the economy Minister who leads on this, and I'll be sure, again, that he is aware of your concerns and your request today. 

Thank you for that answer, Minister. But, on the topic of spending priorities, I do wish to raise with you the preservation of Wales's historic buildings, of which west Wales has many. I recently had the pleasure of visiting Picton castle, a medieval building which was transformed into a stately home in the eighteenth century by the Philippses. The castle itself has a history that is entrenched in our culture, identity and historic nationhood, from being seized by Glyndŵr to housing American troops in the second world war. It is one of the only medieval properties in Britain to have been continually lived in. And whilst it was fit for royalty and has welcomed monarchs, roofs still need to be patched, bedrooms restored. So, how can the Picton Castle Trust work with the Welsh Government to maximise funding opportunities, ensuring that this historical site and important location in our nation's story is safeguarded for future generations? Diolch. 

I'd certainly encourage the Picton Castle Trust in the first instance to engage with the Deputy Minister for culture in order to explore whether there are opportunities for support. As a first step, I would encourage them to write to the Deputy Minister to seek further dialogue, potentially with officials, on the matter.

Questions now from party spokespeople. The Conservative spokesperson, Sam Rowlands.

Diolch, Llywydd. Good afternoon, Minister. As you'll be well aware, I'm sure, from your ongoing discussions with council leaders, one of the most important things for a successful council is the ability to plan ahead financially. Of course, last year's announcement that we're on a three-year indicative settlement is certainly welcomed by myself and councils as a whole. So, in light of this, Minister, what assessment have you made of how adequate next year's local government initial indicative settlement will be for councils?

Thank you for the question. As you say, we have a three-year spending outlook now as a result of the UK Government's three-year spending review, which in itself was welcome. But, one of the challenges that we've all recognised is that it was very much frontloaded into year one of the settlement. So, we had an uplift in this financial year, which we were able to pass on very well, I think, to local government, who described the settlement—at the time, at least—as exceptionally good. But, of course, we're facing inflationary pressures now, which are causing concern right across local government. So, what I can say is that we would look to the UK Government to provide a general uplift to departments—as they call all of us regardless of if we're devolved Governments—to look across all departments to provide an uplift to reflect the impact that inflation is having. And, of course, we would look to see what we can do then to support local government further. But, as it stands, I think the UK Government—. The messages that I'm increasingly hearing quite clearly, I think, from Treasury Ministers is that we will all be expected to live within the funding envelopes that we have, which means that there won't be any further funding, I'm afraid, at this point to pass on.

Thank you, Minister, and also thank you for acknowledging the pressure that local authorities are likely to be in in the next financial year with the indicative settlements that they are likely to receive. As we know, local government settlements do provide around 70 per cent of a local authority's spend in their area, which, of course, delivers those vital services that councils and councillors want to provide for their local communities. We also know councils are still feeling the effects of the COVID-19 pandemic in terms of their lost income and extra expenditure, and, of course, they continue to receive further responsibilities, which I will continue to support. But, it is clear that next financial year is going to be very difficult for local authorities and I would expect that there's going to be a detrimental effect on some of the services they have to provide. So, to be able to balance the books, I wonder what you expect our councils to do less of to ensure that those essential services and that support does continue.

I would absolutely recognise that local government did experience real difficulties during the pandemic, both in terms of lost income and those opportunities lost in terms of making up income, and, of course, the additional pressures that they had on a range of services, which is why I think it's been well recognised that Welsh Government worked very carefully to provide support in terms of lost income and other support for local government at that point. But, as Sam Rowlands says, years two and three of the spending review are much more difficult because of the way in which the increase was very much frontloaded, and it does mean that local government will have to make difficult decisions, just as we will in Welsh Government, where our budget over the three-year spending review will be worth £600 million less than we understood it to be at the time of the spending review, as a result of inflation. So, local government will be facing difficult decisions just as we are in terms of what we're able to deliver and how quickly we're able to deliver it. How local government decides to deal with those pressures, I think, is a matter for each of them individually. But, obviously, we would look to support them and engage closely with them as they take those difficult decisions. 

Again, thank you, Minister. It would be interesting to hear, perhaps in a further response, of any particular areas you think councils may do less on. I absolutely agree it's up to those local democratic members to make that decision, but I'm sure an indication as to where some of those expectations might be would be useful. Of course, fundamental to delivering those services is the fair funding formula for local authorities. I'm sure, Minister, you were as excited as I was this week to see some of the headline figures from the census being announced. And some of those latest statistics are quite stark, actually. They're showing an ageing population, which we did know about already, but the census continues to point to that, with around 21 per cent of our population in Wales now being over the age of 65, 1 per cent being aged over 90 years old, and, in places like Conwy county, the figure for over 90-year-olds is actually the highest in Wales, at 1.5 per cent; around 2,000 people over the age of 90 years old in that one county alone. And as I've mentioned time and time again, the current funding formula, in my view, does not properly take into account and support older people at the level that they need support. And we also saw just last week the now Labour-run Monmouthshire County Council vote for a motion—a cross-party motion, supported by all, I understand—calling for a review of the funding formula. So, it's not just Conservative councils now looking at this; Labour councils also seem to be dissatisfied with the funding formula. So, in light of this, can you provide us here today, Minister, with an initial assessment of the information coming out of the census and how that may affect the funding formula in future, and also what your thoughts are on the Labour-run council for their calls for a funding formula review?

Thank you for raising these issues. I'll begin with your question in relation to where might local government feel particular pressure. I've already had opportunities to meet collectively with all of the leaders of local government, including our new cohort of leaders, and I think they're very keen to stress the importance of looking at their capital settlement, because of course our capital budget across the three years is particularly poor, being worth less in every single year in cash terms across the three-year period. And of course the implications are there for local government and particularly so in respect of inflation. So, obviously there'll be choices for them in terms of which projects they decide to invest in and how they profile that spend and how slowly they end up delivering projects, really, as a result of that. So, those will be some of the potential areas of difficulty. 

Yes, I had the same level of excitement as you when the census data came out, and that will continue, actually, because data will be provided, probably on a monthly basis, now, right through to November. So, there'll be lots more for us to get our teeth into as the various pieces of information come forward from the census. But, yes, clearly it will have an implication in terms of local government funding. The population projections, which are probably of the most interest, or one of the aspects of most interest, to local government, are used as part of the funding formula, and today's results, or the results of the census, will feed into future updates to local authority population projections.

The Welsh Government's local authority population projections are planned to be updated from 2024, and that's subject to the confirmation of the Office for National Statistics's plans for 2021-based national population projections and revised mid-year estimates of the population for 2012 to 2020. So, that data will be important. But I know the point you're really trying to make is around the funding formula for local government, which is under constant review. I'm seeing the Presiding Officer looking wearily at me at the moment, so I'll draw this to a close. But the funding formula is under constant review, as we've discussed, in terms of new data coming forward, but we will be meeting with the finance sub-group the week after next, where we'll be discussing the funding formula, and particularly the timeliness and the accuracy and the importance of data, and that point that you've made previously about age cohorts is very much still part of that discussion. 

I was looking with interest at you. [Laughter.] I'm always interested in the subject of the funding formula for local government. 

I thought I might have been going on too long. 

I need to work on my poker face, obviously. [Laughter.]

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Llyr Gruffydd. 

Diolch, Llywydd. The legislative consent memorandum for the UK Infrastructure Bank Bill is due to come before this Senedd quite soon. Now, the legislation states that the bank's activities will, and I quote, provide

'financial assistance to projects wholly or mainly relating to infrastructure'

and provide

'loans to relevant public authorities for such projects'.

It goes on to explain that its work is being supported by a new national infrastructure strategy that has three central objectives, namely economic recovery, levelling up and unlocking the union's potential. To what extent do you think that those three objectives reflect the investment objectives and priorities of the Welsh Government? And what are you doing to ensure that any investment that might come to Wales through the proposed investment bank actually complements this Senedd's broader objectives, as reflected in Welsh legislation around promoting sustainable development, equality, tackling the climate crisis and so on? 

This is a really important issue, and, of course, the UK Infrastructure Bank is supposed to be the successor to the European Investment Bank, but I think that, if you look at the sums available to it to invest, it really just pales compared to what we would have been able to access through the EIB. So, I would encourage the UK Government to reflect on the amount of support that's available to it. 

But the point made in terms of our Welsh Government approach to this is really important, because I'm not in a position yet to take a view on whether or not I would be able to recommend to this Senedd agreeing to the legislative consent memorandum. I think that there is certainly something to commend the bank for, absolutely—their focus, I think, on decarbonisation investment would be positive and something that we would support, and something that is in line with our own concerns here in Wales. But, in order to be able to recommend consent, I think I would have to know from the UK Government, and have that clear agreement through amendments to the Bill, that we would have a say in the governance of that bank, and also in the setting of the bank's remit. So, those are two conditions I think that are really important in being able to recommend consent. 

But my understanding is that none of those conditions are in place at the moment, and, if truth to be told, there's a real risk here that this Westminster Bill is just another example of the UK Government straying into devolved matters intentionally, riding roughshod over decisions made here, undermining devolution and the integrity of the Senedd and the Welsh Government in an effort to impose their Conservative agenda on Wales—coming hot on the heels, of course, of the revelation on Monday that Westminster is to effectively rescind the Trade Union (Wales) Act 2017 that was passed here to protect workers' rights just a few years ago. The days of subtly taking back powers to Westminster have now clearly been overtaken by a blatant and outright attack on devolution, on our Parliament and on democracy here in Wales. 

So, given that the First Minister, in response to Plaid Cymru leader Adam Price yesterday, said that he would resist—his word, 'resist'—these actions by the UK Government, that he would seek to protect the legislative integrity of this Senedd, although he couldn't tell us exactly how he'd do that, by the way, similarly, can I ask what are you going to do as finance Minister to protect the integrity of the Welsh Government and of the Welsh Parliament in a fiscal sense, when the UK Infrastructure Bank would actually be making decisions that proactively undermine policy and spending decisions set here in the Senedd? 

Well, I think that your question sets out why it is so important that we have these amendments to the UK Government's Bill, both in terms of the governance of the bank—so, at the moment, it's only UK Treasury Ministers who are allowed to nominate people to those positions on the board; obviously, we would see a role for devolved Governments in this space, and I made that case clearly to the Chief Secretary to the Treasury when I met with him a couple of weeks ago—and then also setting the remit of the bank is really important as well. It will be operating in devolved spaces in terms of economic development and supporting our Welsh businesses, so we would want that investment to be done in a way that complements and works with the grain of what Welsh Government is seeking to achieve. 

I did have the opportunity to meet with the chair of the UKIB, and I was able to set out what our priorities are to the chair of the bank. But I think that it has to come down to amendments to the Bill, and, if those amendments are made, then I could recommend consent to the Senedd, but we have yet to get to that point. So, obviously, I'll be keen to keep colleagues updated on this. 

Our changes, which form part of our three-pronged approach, will help strike the right balance between capacity within the self-catering tourism sector, and the economic benefits that brings, and supporting viable communities of local residents to live and work in these areas.

Thank you, Minister. This is really good to hear, because I'm sure you would agree that tourism is vitally important to the Welsh economy, but, of course, with the rapid rise in self-catering units, there is a risk that some towns and villages will cater more to visitors than to residents. This is something that's been raised with me by concerned residents in Llangollen on numerous occasions, where parts of the town—as many as one in five properties—are now advertised as Airbnb self-catering units. Would you agree that we have to ensure that towns and villages across Wales are alive and active 12 months of the year, and can you guarantee that the measures that you have outlined will lead to a careful balance between our interests in driving the visitor economy and the need to ensure that towns and villages are living towns and villages?

Absolutely. This strand of our policy, in terms of addressing the impact that large numbers of second homes and holiday lets can have on some communities in Wales, is about doing exactly that which Ken Skates has described, and that’s creating sustainable communities where people can live year round and where, in winter, you don’t go into those villages and find that lights are off in the majority of those properties.

We know that in Newport, Pembrokeshire, for example, or in Abersoch, 40 per cent of properties there are second homes and holiday lets, and that’s just not a balanced community. So, we absolutely recognise the importance of tourism, but I think that we also need to recognise that sustainable communities are important, and giving those opportunities to people to live in the communities within which they grew up and where they have that attachment, and where they want to work and make a life for themselves.

I think that it’s also worth us reflecting that, where second home owners operate on a very occasional basis, or on a casual basis, within the self-catering sector, then they are actually entering into direct competition with those genuine self-catering businesses. So, that again is an indication that the system as it stands is not in balance, and we are taking, as I say, a number of steps to address this.

Minister, you will be aware that my Welsh Conservative colleagues and I have raised on many occasions our opposition to these changes. One of the reasons why is because of the unintended consequences that might come out as a result of it. I've since been in contact with a number of businesses who have raised serious concerns about some of those unintended consequences of the change. So, can I just ask a couple of questions?

So, for example, how will these days actually be calculated? What happens if businesses—and, unfortunately, this does happen—receive last-minute cancellations? Does that still count towards the quota of 182 days? Also, another concern, as it stands, is that refuse collection payments are payable if the business is on business rates, but what happens if this business is forced back onto council tax? Are they then still liable to pay for refuse collections, or will they see a reimbursement of some of that cost?

Finally, I'd be interested to know of what, if any, impact assessment on the number of projected self-catering properties available in Wales once this change fully takes effect, and if you could share those findings with the Senedd, so that we could have a greater understanding of the impact of those changes.

Thank you for raising this issue. We've shared as much detail as we can in the regulatory impact assessment, which was published alongside the legislation. We've been keen to provide operators with the largest amount of time possible to adapt their business model to address some of their concerns. They've had at least 12 months' notice before these matters come into effect. We will be providing a full FAQ, if you like, for operators, so that they can understand how it might impact on them personally.

But if operators are operating as a business and meet the threshold, they will therefore have all of the responsibilities and the benefits of being treated as a business. If they do not meet that, they will be considered a domestic dwelling for the purposes of council tax, at least. But I'll be happy to set out an FAQ, and, if colleagues have any detailed questions, we will be keen to address them in that.

As a result of the co-operation agreement with Plaid Cymru, we anticipate feeding nearly an additional 60,000 primary age pupils in our first year of roll-out. We will implement the scheme as quickly as possible to ensure that every primary school pupil receives a free school meal by 2024.

Diolch for that. It's actually revolutionary, isn't it, that universal free school meals will start being rolled out from September in Wales. I'm so proud that this is happening as a result of the co-operation agreement involving Plaid Cymru. I wanted to ask you, Minister, about support being given to local authorities to ensure that schools are able to cope with this change. I'm so thankful to local authorities across Wales for moving so quickly to ensure that the youngest infants will start receiving these meals from September, but there will be logistical challenges: some schools will need to get new kitchens, new staff, maybe find new suppliers. So, could you outline, please, how the Welsh Government is supporting local authorities to make sure that schools can overcome these barriers and that the youngest children can start to receive universal free school meals from September in schools across Wales?

I'm very grateful for the question and absolutely share the enthusiasm for this policy. I don't think it could have been a policy that could have come at a better time, really, because I know that when discussions started about this particular policy, we weren't in a place where we understood the level of the cost-of-living crisis that was before us, so it's absolutely the right policy, I think, for the right time.

We're keen to support local government in a number of ways in terms of delivering on this policy. Obviously, financial support is going to be critical in terms of delivery. We have committed £200 million in revenue across the lifetime of the agreement, and we have already made available an initial £25 million in capital funding, so that local authorities are supported to make those early investments in the equipment and the infrastructure necessary to deliver. There are discussions continuing with partners to understand what further support might be needed in terms of investment in the school estate, so I think that financial support is really important.

I think the support of frequent discussion with local government as they drive forward and deliver this policy will also be important to understand the implications for them and their experience of delivery, and we can learn from that as we move forward. And then I think that clear support for local government in terms of being flexible as well, as they start to deliver this, will be important, because, as we know, all schools aren't going to be physically in the position to provide the kind of hot meal that we envisage, but are there things that we can be doing to support the development of the policy while we get to that point?

Minister, as you pointed out, we know you've invested or will be investing £200 million and £25 million capital to address kitchens and facilities upgrades, and I know there is still some anxiety that that may not be enough, but I take it that those issues will be addressed with local authorities. However, with the rising inflation rates and the Russian invasion of Ukraine having a substantial impact on the cost of food, there are concerns that the funding announced simply won't be enough to ensure that schools can provide high-quality nutritious meals to all. Clearly, we are likely to see increasing costs as things move forward. As such, the Government's policy is at risk of not matching the outcomes that it hopes to achieve. Minister, what detailed analysis of costs associated with the universal primary free school meals commitment has the Government carried out, and what assurances can you give to local authorities, both from a capital and a revenue perspective, especially should food prices escalate as is likely? And will you publish this analysis so that we can see more clearly how these funding decisions have been made, and to what extent they cover the costs that will be borne by local authorities and schools? Thank you.

I think that this is another one of those areas of pressure on local government that your colleague Sam Rowlands was discussing earlier on in the session today, in the sense that their budget, like ours, is worth less than originally envisaged. The prices of food have increased by 8.7 per cent in the year to May 2022 and obviously there is still a lot of global uncertainty, and we can't be sure that this won't increase further still, so I do think that this is one of the many pressures on local government. That said, I think that local government is in the best possible position it could be, thanks to the good settlement that it did have in our three-year spending review, but obviously we will work closely and keep an eye on this with local government. That said, I think this does speak to that need for the UK Government to provide that general uplift to budgets to reflect the kind of pressure that Peter Fox is talking about in terms of the day-to-day real-life impact of inflation on the delivery of policies, and particularly those that support the most vulnerable in society.

Minister, improving the health and well-being and the education of our children and young people in Wales is so important—even more so now, following the pandemic. Free school meals will play a vital role in this, and I want to thank the Minister and the education Minister for all their hard work since the review, ensuring that this will become the new normal across schools in Wales. We know that free school meals help combat pupil absence, so more and more of our young people don't miss out on their education. We also know that family liaison officers are key to reducing pupil absence, but, unfortunately, these officers aren't a luxury that all schools in Wales can afford. Will the Minister explore the possibility of funding family liaison officers directly through local authorities to ensure more schools in Wales are able to benefit from their invaluable work?

I absolutely agree that those family engagement officers do excellent work in terms of being that bridge between the school and the family, and, as such, in the 2022-23 budget, we'll be investing £3.84 million in increasing the number of those family engagement officers that are employed by schools. The funding has been provided to local authorities, and that, then, allows them to target those schools that they think require that additional capacity, using their local knowledge. And, in addition, as part of our policy development, we'll also be advising schools on the effective practice of family engagement officers, and, of course, the wider professional learning, which has to be undertaken to best use those individuals. We're also providing £660,000 for a trial of community-focused school manager positions in Wales, and those roles will help develop better engagement between schools and the communities, recognising that children's lives don't just finish when the school bell rings, but there's a lot that needs to be done outside of those hours to support families as well. But we recognise really the importance of those family engagement officers. 

The UK Government’s economic and fiscal policies are responsible for the relatively poor growth of the UK economy. If the Welsh Government’s budget since 2010 had kept pace with long-run growth in the economy before 2010, it would be over £4.5 billion higher than it is.

I accept that Minister, but, sometimes, I think we place too much emphasis on simply spending. My question was about how we raise funds as well. The UK Government's obsession with austerity has created real significant structural problems in the economy. But their decision to go for a hard Brexit, leaving the single market and the customs union, has meant that the UK economy and the Welsh economy are suffering long-term harm. This will have, I assume, a direct impact on the money raised by the Welsh Government in terms of its taxation policy. My question to you, Minister, is: to what extent is this analysis correct? Have you had an opportunity to make an assessment of the impact of UK economic policy? And how, if you have made an assessment, are you able to ameliorate that impact?

Thank you for raising that. Alongside the draft budget, which we published back in December, the chief economist did provide an update in terms of his assessment of the impact, which included the impact of Brexit, and I would commend that to all colleagues. We know that we have lost, or the UK, I should say, has lost many billions of pounds in tax, as a direct result of Brexit. And, of course, that means that the Welsh Government's budget is harmed as a direct result of that; there's no question about that. I do get the opportunity to raise this particular issue this afternoon, at one of our inter-ministerial meetings with the UK Government, and I'll be reflecting on the points that Alun Davies has made, and using that to inform my contribution in that meeting.

Minister, the UK Government's strong economic policy since 2010, and having that long-term economic plan, has helped deliver the best settlement Wales has ever had: £18 billion-worth of funding this year. And, because of the UK Government's strong economic policies, we've got the levelling-up fund, the community renewal fund, city and growth deals, free ports, investment in green energy and the global centre of rail excellence in my constituency, delivered by a UK Conservative Government. Eighteen billion pounds extra this year, and you still keep moaning about Brexit. My word. So, does the Minister agree with me that because of a strong UK Conservative Government, with strong economic policies, the Welsh economy will grow because of the benefit to the wider economy of the UK and you will have more money in the Welsh Government Treasury?

Well, I have to say that the cheque must be still in the post if we’re expecting £18 billion additional to our budget this year, because Wales is actually £1 billion worse off as a result of the UK Government’s approach to replacement EU funding. The Finance Committee has the opportunity to question UK Government Ministers tomorrow and I’m going to be paying even more interest than I normally do to the Finance Committee’s meeting, because I would absolutely love to see the UK Government Ministers trying to defend their decisions in respect of post-EU funding, because I think they are indefensible. The UK Government did promise us that we wouldn’t be a penny worse off as a result of Brexit; we’re £1.2 billion worse off as a result of Brexit and as a result of the particular choices that they made, and I just don’t think there’s any point in trying to hide from that.

Monitoring is a key part of Welsh Government's grant processes. Grant managers have flexibility to tailor monitoring requirements according to the size, value and risk of projects. Monitoring requirements are set out in the grant award letter terms and conditions, which form the legally binding agreement between Welsh Government and recipients.

Thank you. Well, in contrast to my colleague there about how good the UK Government are when handing money out, the Welsh Government, certainly in my time—I’ve been here 11 years—and prior to that since devolution, have wasted millions and millions of pounds: £221 million on uncompetitive enterprise zones; £9.3 million on flawed initial funding—[Interruption.] I know it hurts, but let me finish. Nine point three million pounds on flawed initial funding for the Circuit for Wales; £157 million on the M4 relief road inquiry; £750,000 in the last financial year on the grounded Anglesey to Cardiff flight link; and, in my own constituency, £400,000 on G.M. Jones, and that was to build bespoke units in Llanrwst that up until very recently had been empty right from build. That business actually is no longer, because of the implications of the higher cost. I could go on, but the latter example in particular highlights a clear area where I do believe now that money is very tight; we’ve got a sort of cost-of-living crisis.

I raised it in the First Minister’s scrutiny committee, and I asked the First Minister in my question, 'When you’ve handed large sums of money over to these companies, how do you then monitor it?' And the response was very much a case of, 'Once we’ve handed that money over, it really is up to that business.' So, how can you convince me, Minister, that you have got good financial probity at the heart of Welsh Government, so that we do not keep seeing this repeating and a number of times when, actually, you are simply wasting taxpayers' money? Thank you.

Welsh Government issues thousands of award letters every year to a wide range of stakeholders, such as local authorities, the third sector and private sector organisations for a really wide range of purposes, and they are intended to help us drive forward our policy objectives. Monitoring our grant funding is an integral method to ensuring that those projects deliver what is intended, but it is the case that monitoring activities are quite rightly varied and they should be specific to the funding that is being awarded, and those grant managers are responsible for establishing the correct level of monitoring that is needed.

So, a wide range of activities can be used to obtain the assurance that we need that the grant requirements are being met. They can include progress reports, monitoring of targets and milestones, meetings and site visits, written reports, and claims from both the grant recipient and/or an independent third party. And as I said in the response to your first question, those form part of the legally binding award letter and those terms and conditions should be considered from the outset. Grant recipients should only be agreeing to those if they are convinced that they can meet those terms and conditions.

I will say that grant managers are now able to seek advice, support and guidance through a range of sources, including our grants centre of excellence, corporate governance, legal services and their own operations team, so we do have a wide range of support and guidance available to grant managers to ensure that they're able to undertake that monitoring correctly. Active grant monitoring is absolutely key.

This year, the Government is providing unhypothecated revenue funding of over £5.1 billion to support local authorities in the delivery of their statutory and non-statutory services, including priorities such as housing.

Thank you so much, Minister. Last week, I met with representatives from the Motor Neurone Disease Association Cymru, together with people suffering with the condition, at an event sponsored by my very able colleague Peter Fox. One of the issues raised with me was that of MND patients being trapped in inaccessible homes because local authorities have not provided necessary adaptations. To put it simply, the cost, lack of funding and timescales involved are causing people with MND and their families really genuine hardships. A third of people with MND die within a year of diagnosis and half within two years. During that time, symptoms worsen and needs increase, so sufferers living with MND don't have the luxury of time to simply just wait. What discussions have you had, Minister, with local authorities in Wales to fast-track support for people with MND, removing the means test for low-cost and high-impact adaptations, and to maintain a register of available accessible homes for them? Thank you.

Thank you for raising this issue. I absolutely recognise the importance of moving quickly to support people with MND. In terms of local government, in considering their general housing responsibilities, they must be mindful of their responsibilities under the Equality Act 2010, and we do encourage local authorities to hold those accessible housing registers so that disabled people can be allocated housing that is suitable for their needs. Work is also under way through a housing association to develop a standard accessible housing register for all local authorities to be able to use. And also, they have legal responsibilities under the Housing Grants, Construction and Regeneration Act 1996 to provide mandatory disabled facilities grants for qualifying disabled people to make adaptations to a property. We've been working over a number of years to make that process as quick and as streamlined as possible, and to remove, where appropriate, that level of means testing to, again, try and speed things through the system. We also provide funding to enable local authorities to provide lower cost adaptations quickly. Again, this is without means testing. We increased that grant in April 2021 to £6 million a year. But I will take an opportunity, when I have it, with local government, and particularly their housing spokespeople, to explore this issue further, and if I'm not able to do it myself soon, I'll do it through my colleague the housing Minister. 

The final budget published in March provides £1.8 billion in 2022-23 to support the economy portfolio. This budget includes £35 million to specifically support small and medium-sized businesses. Other support includes £116 million for rates relief and £103 million for Transforming Towns.

Thank you, Minister. I've recently met with a number of businesses in the Cynon valley who are seeking to invest in renewable energy sources, or more modern energy efficient machinery. Of course, this can be very expensive for small family enterprises. How is the Welsh Government supporting this type of investment so that businesses can innovate, modernise and play their part in tackling the climate emergency?

Thank you for raising that really important point, because small and medium-sized enterprises are, of course, the backbone of our economy here in Wales, but also they have a huge role to play in terms of helping us work towards our decarbonisation goals. In November of last year, a £45 million package was launched by my colleague the economy Minister to train staff and to help Welsh SMEs to grow, and included in this package was £35 million that will help small and medium-sized businesses relaunch, develop and, importantly, decarbonise to help drive the recovery following the COVID pandemic. So, that will be an important source of potential support that I would encourage businesses in the Cynon valley and elsewhere to look to.

I think, also, it's important that we start off our new small and medium-sized enterprises on the right foot. And that's why, in February 2022, Business Wales launched their net-zero carbon start-up grant, which is a pilot scheme offering financial and technical support to help budding or start-up social enterprises get their businesses ready for trading or investment, and, crucially, to embed climate-friendly practices into start-up social enterprises from the outset. This scheme is open to any up-and-coming social business or trading voluntary organisation in Wales. Again, this will be something that I know that those eligible organisations in the Cynon valley and elsewhere will be keen to explore.

I thank the Minister.

The next questions will be to the Minister for rural affairs and north Wales. The first question is from Heledd Fychan.

Diolch. Our #PawsPreventProtect social media campaign promotes responsible purchasing and serves as a reminder of the lifetime costs associated with owning a pet. We also continue to liaise with our third sector partners to support their work in promoting expectations of responsible ownership, particularly as pressures grow on household budgets.

Thank you, Minister. I realise that the #PawsPreventProtect social media campaign mainly runs over the festive period and that it is quite seasonal and limited, focused on responsible pet purchasing. It is obviously a successful campaign, but quite limited. By contrast, in England, they have Petfished, a long-running pet buying awareness campaign, while in Scotland, the Scottish Government has a Buy a Puppy Safely campaign—both with dedicated, enduring websites and awareness-raising resources, and both supplemented by other awareness-raising measures too.

You'll be aware, as many of us are, I'm sure, that the RSPCA's new animal kindness index suggests that 19 per cent of pet owners are worried about buying food for their pets amid the cost-of-living crisis. The RSPCA has already seen an increase in animal intake at RSPCA centres amounting to 49 per cent more rabbits, 14 per cent more cats and 3 per cent more dogs in the first five months of 2022. Therefore, will Welsh Government be committing to using a permanent promotional campaign to signpost owners to available support packages elsewhere, which could prove really useful to owners unsure where to turn, if we can't be running our own permanent campaign?

I will certainly consider looking at what we can do more permanently, but we do regularly promote and share messages from other organisations on responsible ownership. Just last week, we had one regarding the care of animals in hot weather, for instance, and leaving dogs, particularly, in cars. So, there are a lot of other social media outlets that we do promote and share, and I would encourage all Members of the Senedd to do so as well. I think you raise a very important point, and certainly, the couple of rescue centres that I've been able to visit this year are seeing, sadly, an increase in the number of pets that they are having to take in. We've had, obviously, people buying pets during the COVID pandemic and then, perhaps when they've had to go back to work full time, realise the difficulties in looking after a pet when they're back in work, and then, as you've just raised, the cost-of-living crisis. But I'm certainly open to any suggestions about seeing what we could do more permanently.

Minister, abandonment of pets is a big issue and it always has been a big issue. For some residents of homes, they have to abandon their companion animals because in the rented sector, some landlords say that no pets are allowed. In Westminster, they are bringing through a piece of legislation that will rule that out and make it illegal for landlords to insist that pets cannot be taken into homes, especially when the animal is a companion animal that plays an important role in the mental health of that individual. Are you minded to give consideration to that particular piece of legislation that's going through Westminster, and, in conjunction with your colleague the Minister for housing, consider similar measures here in Wales?

It is something, certainly, that I've discussed with the Minister for Climate Change, who obviously has responsibility for housing. And as you'll probably be aware, next week, we will be debating Luke Fletcher's proposed legislation around no-pet clauses. I'm sure that, as Ministers, we will be having discussions further with Luke.

Minister, my colleague Sarah Murphy and I recently visited Hope Rescue near Llanharan. We saw the brilliant work they were doing, but they told us about the massive increase in enquiries they're having from owners who simply are asking, 'How do I afford now to keep my pet? How do I feed it? How do I pay vet fees? How do I pay for insurance?' They're also having increasing numbers of abandoned pets, way beyond what they've ever seen before. We've seen the same at the Dogs Trust as well in Bridgend. With this, would you undertake to meet with those good, authoritative people who are out there in the field to see how they can best work not only with the dogs and the pets that are being presented to them, but also with the owners to give them good advice, so that they don't have to abandon those pets, that there are other sources of help out there, rather than them ending up stray or abandoned, or, frankly, dumped on rescue centres like Hope Rescue?

Thank you for that. I've already met with the Hope Rescue centre. I've also met with the North Clwyd Animal Rescue centre up in north-east Wales. My officials regularly meet with the third sector to see what we can do to help people who are obviously facing very difficult decisions. And certainly, again, having met with owners, they will tell me that they will feed their pets before they feed themselves, if they're faced with such a decision. So, I think it's just really important we continue to engage, particularly with the third sector, to see what more we can do to assist.

Thank you. Alongside the basic payment scheme, I recently announced a package of support worth over £227 million for a number of schemes available to farmers across the whole of Wales. My officials will also consider derogation requests from farmers experiencing hardship due to the current economic situation.

Thank you for your answer, Minister. I'm sure you were delighted, as I was this week, to see the announcement that Welsh food and drink exports hit a record high, with Wales seeing the highest increase in value of exports between all four UK nations in the last year. In addition to this, the highest value export category was meat and meat products, and, of course, it's down to our fantastic farmers up and down the country. Indeed, last week I had the privilege of being a panel member at the Da Byw future of farming event in north Wales, and farmers there were keen to remind the panel that quality food production is, and always will be, central to farming. I'm regularly reminded of this too on social media by farmers like Gareth Wyn Jones in Llanfairfechan, who highlight the hard work that farmers carry out in feeding the nation. So, Minister, will you join me in thanking and congratulating our farmers across north Wales for their efforts in food production, and give assurances today that the upcoming agriculture Bill has food production central to its ambition?

Thank you. I certainly will be very happy to join you in congratulating all our farmers and our fantastic Welsh food and drink producers, who've achieved such an amazing amount of exports. And you couldn't get more challenging times, could you, for our exporters? Just last week, I visited a new business, only a year old, in Monmouth, and they were already exporting. It was a drink company, and they were already exporting their drink. I think for a company to be brave enough to export in these particularly challenging times—. And they were very grateful for the Welsh Government support there. I particularly enjoy looking at Gareth Wyn Jones's Twitter feed. He's very good, I think, at showing just what hard work farmers do to produce that amazing food. We really lead, I think, the world in Wales on the food that we produce here. I can assure you that both the sustainable farming scheme, which I will be publishing before the summer recess, and the agricultural Bill will absolutely have sustainable food production at their hearts.

Questions now from party spokespeople. Conservative spokesperson, Samuel Kurtz.

Diolch, Llywydd. Minister, I'll start with fisheries, if I may, as invites have now been sent to stakeholders to join the ministerial advisory group for Welsh fisheries, a new group that both myself and stakeholders hope will lead to better engagement between the Welsh Government and the sector here in Wales. Given that this is a new group looking to grow the industry, can you provide further information on the structures you will use to co-design a much-needed approach to co-management of our fisheries against a backdrop of huge landings decline and pressures being experienced across the sector? And, given your assurance to the Economy, Trade and Rural Affairs Committee that you were to hold the first meeting in mid July, is this still the case?

I thought you'd already seen the invitation. Yes, it is the case. It's 14 July that I will be holding the first meeting, which I'm sure you will welcome. As you said, I did give assurance to the committee. It will be interesting to see. I think it was really imperative that we had a new structure in place. We'd had the Wales marine fisheries advisory group for quite a long time, but we are in a new world now—we've left the European Union—and we have to make sure that our fishers have many more opportunities than they had previously. I have had discussions with the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Secretary of State to ensure that Welsh fishers absolutely get their fair share of quotas. We've always co-designed and co-managed fisheries, both management and the way that we've looked at schemes that we've brought forward, particularly with COVID et cetera. So, I don't think the structure will change. What I think is really important is that the advice I'm given, as Minister, and my officials, covers the whole range of fisheries and marine.

Thank you. And, Minister, I also want to raise your attention with regard to the several families fleeing the war in Ukraine who are seeking refuge here in Wales. As you will be aware, those family pets that wish to join their owners in Wales, must rightly fulfil certain criteria to do so: they must be vaccinated against rabies, be microchipped, undertake tapeworm treatment, and possess a full, issued pet passport. Your department has confirmed that they're doing everything possible to simplify this process and ensure that these pets are able to return to their owners as quickly as possible. However, I've had correspondence from a constituent who says that, despite the advice coming from the Animal and Plant Health Agency claiming that they are happy to release their cat, it is the Welsh Government who are refusing a Ukrainian refugee family the permit to allow them to home quarantine it, despite claiming that Welsh Government review each application on a case-by-case basis.

Now, there are instances where I do believe that this should be a viable option, therefore can I call on you to reconsider this decision and ensure that these pets, companion animals, important members of the family, are reunited with their owners as quickly and safely as it's reasonable to do so?

Absolutely. I obviously recognise it's a very difficult and distressing situation that has led Ukrainian people to our country and the decision to not allow home quarantining was not taken lightly. I've done it to protect both public health and the health of our animals here in Wales. You obviously raise one individual case with me; I'm not aware of those details. However, I will say, APHA are responsible for ensuring all that paperwork is correct. So, if that paperwork is correct, I cannot see why we would turn that down. I'll be very happy—. If you want to write to me, I am aware that you have written to me already about a constituent, I think in relation to Ukrainian pets—I don't know if it's the same one, but if you would like to write to me, I will certainly look into it as a matter of urgency.

I'm grateful for that, Minister, and I will follow that up in writing with yourself.

Finally, I wish to draw your attention to the recent 'Celebrating Rural Wales' event, held at the Royal Welsh showground earlier this month, an event that your Government's press release stated provided an opportunity

'to learn lessons from the many successes of the RDP'—

an RDP previously criticised by the Wales Audit Office. Now, this event came with a financial cost of over £85,000, which was confirmed as funded via the rural development programme technical assistance budget. In a press release, you stated that 200-odd people attended this event, placing an expenditure roughly at £425 per head. Now, given that public money was used to fund this event, I would expect this event to be held for the benefit of Rural Payment Wales applicants. However, having a customer reference number was not a prerequisite for being able to attend. If we are unable to measure the number of attendees who were in receipt of RDP money, i.e. those who can actually teach us the lessons of RDP funding, then what metric has been used to gauge the success of this conference? And in the interest of transparency, how are you demonstrating that this event represented value for money for Welsh taxpayers?

Thank you. Well, I think I should correct you when you say the Wales Audit Office criticised the rural development programme—there were literally hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of schemes, and the benefits to our rural communities I think are very apparent in many, many cases.

I think the event that was held, the conference, and the TasteWales event that was held next door to the conference, have been very successful. What I wanted to do was talk to people. I don't know if you attended yourself, but I wanted to talk to people who had been in receipt of rural development funding—what benefit it had brought to them. Some of the schemes, and some of the programmes—the people I spoke to had been doing them for about 10 years, so there was a wealth of data and evidence, and obviously anecdotal discussions as well, I appreciate, to help us as we bring forward the successor programme. What I have asked officials to do is draw that all together in a document, and if I'm able to, I will certainly publish it. 

Questions now from the Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Mabon ap Gwynfor. 

Thank you very much, Llywydd. I want to raise an issue that I've raised in the past, if I may. The huge increase in the prices of fodder, fuel and fertiliser is hitting our farmers hard at the moment. There's a shortage of red diesel, which has increased 50 per cent in a year, and the cost of fertiliser has more than trebled in 12 months. There's a shortage of maize, for example, to feed animals. And the agricultural development board has suggested that the cost of intensive fodder will increase by 40 per cent, and farmers are already looking at adjusting their sowing plans. 

All the signs are there for us to see real problems in producing and supplying foods. As my colleague Llyr Gruffydd mentioned yesterday, in March the Irish Government announced a crop growth scheme worth €12 million, among a number of other steps. We need a plan here in order to avoid a food crisis, along with an animal welfare crisis. The recent pig farm crisis should be a warning of that. The answers provided yesterday show that there is no plan in place to secure the future of fodder. So, does the Government have a plan to tackle the animal feed crisis facing farmers this winter? After all, it's better to prepare now than to panic later. 

Well, I don't think there's any panic, and certainly, in the discussions I've had with stakeholders, with my ministerial counterparts, with the farming unions, and certainly the discussions that officials have had, I don't think 'panic' is the correct word to use at all. A lot of these levers do sit with the UK Government, such as fuel, for instance, so those discussions are ongoing. I met yesterday on another topic with the Minister of State in the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, and we are going to continue discussions around the fuel, food and fertiliser issues. At the Royal Welsh Show, we'll be having an inter-ministerial group meeting, where we will continue to have them.

My officials regularly attend the market monitoring group that the UK Government have pulled together with other devolved administrations so that we can monitor prices across all agricultural sectors, and, certainly, the schemes that we brought forward in February this year. And some schemes are open now; some more schemes will be opening around the £237 million I referred to in an earlier answer. Some of that funding—farmers are already saying it is helping them with their plans, particularly around nutrient management and spreading fertiliser. I mentioned in an earlier answer to Sam Rowlands that farmers that are in the Glastir scheme, for instance, can come forward with a derogation request. My understanding is, to date, nobody has yet done that, but these are all avenues that are open to them. 

Thank you very much for that response. If I could move on to my next point, one thing that's wonderful about this job is that one learns something new every day, and I've learnt very recently that y clafr is the term for sheep scab. So, I'm going to ask a question on sheep scab.

As we know, sheep scab is one of the most infectious sheep diseases in Wales, and it was noted as a priority by the animal health and welfare group. It costs around £8 million a year to the sheep industry in the UK, which includes 14,000 payments here in Wales, with 9 per cent of sheep farmers experiencing one case of sheep scab per year. Now, the Welsh Government's framework, the action plan for 2022-24, sets out that the framework group will work with Government and will engage with sheep farmers and their vets in order to develop an agreed approach to control this disease. It also notes that the approach should focus on preventing the disease from spreading to flocks by simple biosecurity measures that are effective and can be used by all sheep farmers. 

In the last Senedd, the Minister herself said that eradicating sheep scab was a priority for the Government, and a pledge was made that £5 million would be available to help to eradicate sheep scab on farms in Wales. Will the Minister therefore provide us with an update on the progress made to eradicate sheep scab in Wales, and more specifically, what assessment have you made of the impact of the £5 million programme for sheep scab in Wales? 

I haven't got the figures in front of me of what the decrease we have seen in sheep scab is. I know that there was one, and I will certainly write to the Member with that. What I think is really important, if we are going to eradicate sheep scab, is that we work very much in partnership with the agricultural sector. I remember visiting a farm—I was going to say last year, but it probably wasn't because it was pre-COVID, so it was probably about three years ago—and it was a farm in mid Wales that had really managed to eradicate sheep scab from their farm. I think it's really important that that best practice is shared between our farmers, but I appreciate it is absolutely a joint effort between us.

I did give funding. I don't think it was quite £5 million, the funding I was able to give. I certainly wasn't able to give as much as I had intended to, and that was definitely due to the COVID pandemic and the way we had to reallocate some funding. But, again, I will put the details in a letter to the Member.

Thank you. The proposed sustainable farming scheme will support farmers to undertake a range of actions to help them become more resource efficient. We will support farmers to take a circular approach, keeping resources and materials in use for as long as possible and avoiding waste.

Thank you for that answer, Minister. I fully recognise that the agricultural sector is improving all the time when it comes to reducing their waste, but one stubborn factor that seems to be harder to solve is the plastic produced by the sector for things such as silage, piping, irrigation, mulching, packaging and greenhouse covers. These activities create massive amounts of plastic waste that often ends up tarnishing the beautiful landscape. Silage wrap in particular will be a common sight for those who visit the countryside, but thinner plastics, such as that that's used in mulching and greenhouses, offer a different threat as they break down into microplastics.

The UN produced a report last year citing the disastrous way plastic is being used in farming across the world, which is threatening food safety and human health. Many of the worst practices are seen in other countries, but Wales and other parts of the UK are not exempt. At a time when pressures are profound on the agricultural sector, how are the Welsh Government ensuring that we support farmers and food producers to dispose of their plastic correctly, and how are we helping them to reduce their plastic use in the first place?

Thank you. So, if I can answer the second part of your question first, we absolutely remain committed to supporting our farming sector to farm in the most environmentally friendly way that they possibly can, and appropriate disposing and recycling of plastics such as silage wrap is actively monitored via farm assurance-type schemes. Certainly, as part of the sustainable farming scheme, we will be looking, as I said in my original answer to you, at those circular resources. There are services within Wales to collect farm film for recycling. Wales has two of the main UK farm film recycling plants here. We're also intending on introducing regulations to require recyclable plastic to be separated for recycling in all non-domestic premises in Wales, and that obviously would include farms.

I'd like to thank Jayne Bryant for raising this question. Your own figures suggest, Minister, around 30 per cent of waste produced on farms is of that low-grade plastic, and it can be extremely difficult for farmers to dispose of. What I'd like to know is what actions are the Welsh Government taking to set up co-operatives and work with farmers so they can actually help for that plastic to be taken away and recycled? And what research and development has been done with Welsh Government and its partners to help farming reduce its use of plastics for things like silage wrap, which are extremely difficult to recycle? Diolch, Llywydd.

Thank you. I'm not aware, off the top of my head, of any research and development, but certainly I've had discussions with farmers. I remember one farmer in particular who was very keen to see what he could do to find a way of dealing with this silage wrap particularly. We know that, predominantly in Wales, we have a grass-based livestock sector and very reliant on silage in our winter months. So, I'd be very happy if anybody wants to come forward with any solutions to this problem. I'd be very happy to work with them.

Thank you. The programme for government and our animal welfare plan include a commitment to bring forward a national model for the licensing of animal welfare activities in Wales. It is my intention to consider greyhound racing as part of the animal exhibits consultation on a revised licensing scheme.

Thank you very much for that response, Minister. I understand that Caerphilly council has decided to not continue with the existing number of animal welfare inspections at Valley stadium. Of the 10 planned inspections, six have been completed, but the remaining four are unlikely to be carried out. Data from Hope Rescue suggests that many dogs are injured at the track, and there are ongoing concerns about injuries, the welfare of the dogs and that vets are not always present during races, which, as I'm sure you would appreciate, puts the dogs at huge risk. Could I seek assurances from you that you are working with Caerphilly council to ensure that the welfare inspections at Valley, such as those conducted under the partnership delivery plan, will continue to be carried out, and, more specifically, will you work with the council and the racetrack to ensure the presence of vets at all races at the stadium? Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Diolch, Jane Dodds. You can absolutely be assured that I will be continuing to put pressure on Caerphilly County Borough Council. As you know, I wrote to the new owner of the racing track back in March. I still haven't had the courtesy of a response, even though I've chased up the letter too, and I met with the Greyhound Board of Great Britain also to see what further we can do. Obviously, now, Caerphilly County Borough Council has, as you said, had at least six inspections at the stadium, a vet was always present, and it's really important that those inspections continue and a vet is present. So, I've asked my officials to work closely with the council to make sure that it continues, and I'll be very happy to update Members.

Minister, nobody is more concerned about the welfare of greyhounds than the Greyhound Board of Great Britain. The board constantly strives to minimise the possibility of injury to greyhounds by funding track improvements, improvements at kennels and ensuring that independent veterinary surgeons are present at all GBGB tracks to check the health and well-being of greyhounds before and after racing. Do you agree, Minister, that the welfare of greyhounds is best served by having properly regulated racing as a controlled spectator sport, rather than forcing it underground and risking illegal and dangerous racing, which would only increase the number of injuries to greyhounds? Thank you.

Well, I certainly don't want to see any illegal racing. You'll be aware we've only got the one track here in Wales, and that's the one that Jane Dodds asked the original question about. My concern is about the number of greyhounds that are injured. I've seen some horrific injuries, and the track seems to pride itself on having the most difficult bend in the country. That seems to be a matter of pride to them, and it's just completely beyond my comprehension.

To build on Jane's question, and it's a question that I'm sure the Minister expects every time she sees a question on greyhounds or if there's any opportunity that I can ever link greyhounds to a supplementary question, I was wondering if the Minister is now in a position to provide an update on including greyhound racing as part of the future licensing scheme as set out in the animal welfare plan. I imagine the Minister, like me, is in close contact with many animal welfare charities across Wales, and this is a question they continuously raise with me. I'd also be keen to establish the Government's thinking on the petition submitted by Hope Rescue, though I accept that the Petitions Committee report has yet to be released.

Yes, I certainly do, when Jane Dodd asks a question, I expect one off you, and vice versa, on this really important issue. I'm grateful to you for raising it, as I'm sure many greyhounds are too. I thought the event that you had with Hope Rescue in the Senedd, Paws in the Bay, was fantastic and it was great to talk to people who were owners of greyhounds, like Jane Dodds, who'd rescued greyhounds. It certainly helps me with my thinking, and officials too.

It is absolutely part of our welfare plan. I can't give you a further update. As you know, it's a five-year plan and we will be bringing it through as we go through this term of Government. I am aware, obviously, of the Petitions Committee report that they're looking at. I'd be very surprised if we don't have a debate in this Chamber as a consequence of it, and I very much would welcome that.

Thank you. Our local authority enforcement project has contributed to significant seizures of illegally bred puppies. However, I am aware of additional pressures facing the animal rehoming sector in a post-pandemic landscape alongside the cost-of-living crisis. We work with our third sector partners to consider and support solutions wherever possible.

Thank you, Minister. I recently visited Hope Rescue centre with Huw Irranca-Davies, as he mentioned, and I think we can all agree that the visit from Hope Rescue and south Wales greyhound rescue has left a massive impression on a lot of us, just by the questions that we've had today. But I think we can all see, like you said, just how outstanding the care for the dogs was. On our visit to the centre, though, the staff told us how they are now inundated with seized dogs from illegal breeders. The BBC reported that investigations into illegal dog breeding have risen by 63 per cent in Wales. This is very much a good thing, but they are of course then signed over to the rescue centres for care, and they're just absolutely inundated. They actually told me that, since our visit two weeks ago, 10 poorly bulldogs have been seized, and the issue is that whilst an investigation then takes place by the police, the seized dogs can't move on, so this is creating a huge backlog of dogs within the centre, and there's just a lack of space now for new dogs if they need to be rescued. They said that if there's one more call from the police now, they're just going to have to say 'no'; they can't take anymore. So, Minister, how is the Welsh Government working with local authorities to strengthen the regulations and prevent illegal dog breeding within our communities, but, more than anything, is there anything that can be done or a timescale put on how long the dogs can be in the home before they can be rehomed?

Thank you. I think you raise a really important point, and that small dog I had tucked under my arm for quite a long time on that walk was one such animal that they could not rehouse. I know in Scotland they have been looking at it, and I've asked officials to liaise with officials in Scotland to see if there's anything we can learn from them to be able to, as you say, look at that timescale from it. The capacity to investigate and stop illegal breeding has really increased significantly within local authorities, and that's as a direct result of the enforcement project that we brought forward. The project tackles the barriers to enforcement. It does provide enhanced training and guidance for our inspectors, and it maximises the use of existing resources within individual local authorities and across Wales. So, I was really pleased to see the project had been commended by the RSPCA and by the BBC recently, but I don't underestimate the significant work we still need to do.

Thank you, Sarah, for raising this important issue. You're right—63 per cent of illegal dog breeding has been reported by the BBC, although the number of prosecutions remains very low. What specific action can be taken as part of your animal welfare plan to ensure that there is capacity within the rehoming centres to deal with such an increase and work with the RSPCA to reinforce the importance of prosecution? Thank you.

Yes. I don't think we need to enforce the importance of prosecution; it's something that I've raised in my discussions with the police, which is obviously not a devolved area, but I've certainly had discussions with the RSPCA, and I've been out, as I suppose many Members in the Chamber have been, with the RSPCA and seen the difficulties they face if they come across a situation where they think that dog needs to be taken away and they don't have the powers to do so. So, we've worked very closely with the RSPCA around that and continue to do so. I am really grateful for the very strong relationship we have with those third sector organisations and with the local authorities. I think it really is now something that we need to continue to pursue with the police.

Thank you. We work in partnership with the Welsh Government-funded local authority enforcement project and animal welfare organisations to monitor the effectiveness of our work to protect dogs and to consider further actions. I am supportive of further measures to ensure high welfare standards are maintained in matters such as dog breeding.

Thank you, Minister, for that response. Like many Members of the Senedd, I strongly supported the introduction of the Welsh version of Lucy's law, which you brought in in the last Senedd. I, like many Members here, support the Justice For Reggie campaign, calling for the regulation of online sales of dogs, with the regulation of all websites where animals are sold, for websites to be required to verify the identity of all sellers, and for young animals 'for sale' pictures with their parents to be posted with all listings. Does the Welsh Government support the taking of such action, and is it a devolved responsibility?

Thank you. Whilst it's a very important step, I think I always maintain that the regulations I did bring in last year on pet sales didn't address all the problems associated with puppy trading. Reflecting this, we do support further measures to ensure high welfare standards at dog breeding establishments. I also acknowledge the lure of a quick, unregulated sale that really can attract unscrupulous breeders and dealers to websites. So, for that reason, we do support the work of the UK-wide pet advertising advisory group, and that seeks to ensure online advertising of pets is carried out legally and ethically. You'll be aware we also supported the local authority enforcement project, and that does liaise closely with the police, so it is a reserved area. But, I would just say that if anybody does have any specific concerns, they should contact CrimeStoppers as a matter of urgency.

Minister, on that point about unregulated or poorly regulated sales, you might recall, back in October, I raised with you the issue of a graded or scoring system to be implemented for dog breeders within Wales, and you responded at the time saying that was certainly something you were considering. Now, new figures released this week by the RSPCA and Hope Rescue show that local authorities received almost 1,000 enquiries from concerned members of the public in 2020 and 2021 and, as we've heard from Sarah Murphy and Altaf Hussain, the number of investigations have increased by 63 per cent as well, and I think the reason all three of us have mentioned that is because that is quite a stark figure. That suggests that, whilst consumers might be becoming more aware of some of the practices by rogue traders, that is a cause for concern as well. So, given that, Minister, can you provide an update on what progress has been made in implementing recommendations such as these, as set out in the expert task and finish group?

I haven't got a specific update, and I certainly can't give you a timescale. As I said in a previous answer, the plan is a five-year plan. We're only just into the second year of the plan, but it's certainly something that we will be monitoring very closely.

The Welsh Government continues to provide support for young entrants and those who want to enter the agricultural industry, through programmes such as Farming Connect and Venture. The proposed sustainable farming scheme will support new entrants to enter the industry and establish sustainable businesses.

Thank you, Minister, for that response, and I refer Members to my declaration of interest as a farmer myself. As a Minister, you've stated the Welsh Government has introduced some welcome initiatives to retain young people and, it looks like, hopefully, some more in the future, and that's welcomed. However, despite these initiatives, the sector is not getting any younger. The average age of a farmer is around 59 years old, and that's a similar age to me, and I certainly feel pretty old. Yet, recent events have shown that it's more important than ever to encourage new people into agriculture to help ensure domestic food security, as well as sustaining a vibrant industry that provides jobs and skills for our rural areas. As such, Llywydd, I do think we need to do more in Wales to encourage more people, and particularly those not already from agricultural backgrounds, to step into the sector. Minister, what consideration have you given to introducing a workforce strategy with the aim of retaining and expanding the domestic agricultural workforce, as well as upskilling and reskilling young people to open up opportunities for them? These young will be absolutely fundamental to a sustainable food system. Thank you.

Thank you. The Member raises a really important point, because if we don't encourage the next generation, we won't have that prosperous and dynamic industry that we really want to see here in Wales. So, since I've been in portfolio, it's always been something that I've been very keen on encouraging, and we did have the Young People into Agriculture programme that we had back in March. I think it finished in March 2020, and that was very successful—we had about 150 applications, and I think the majority of them were successful. So, it would be good to perhaps have another look at seeing if we can do something similar, going forward.

I mentioned that there are a few schemes we've brought forward to help young people into the sector, but I think you made a very pertinent point about people not from an agricultural background, because sometimes I think it's even harder for them, and not having access to land and capital is seen as the main barriers for those young people to go into the industry, particularly if they haven't got the support of a farming background or a family in farming.

I haven't had any discussions about having a workforce strategy specifically. As you know, we've got the Venture scheme. That's designed to match landowners and farmers who are looking to step back from the industry with new entrants who are then looking for a way into the sector, and I think it's a very good initiative. It's innovative, it's run through Farming Connect, which, as you know, is only available here in Wales, and it really does guide people on both sides through the key steps to making that potential business partnership. And, again, I've had very interesting discussions with the younger farmer and the older farmer as to how successful it's been. They certainly, I think, appreciated the mentoring, the specialist advice and the business support that's come forward. 

Thank you. Well, immediately following the UK Government’s announcement to delay and redesign import controls I wrote to the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs. Yesterday, I had a further meeting with the UK Government's Minister for Farming, Fisheries and Food and my Scottish counterpart, and I will chair further discussions next month at our inter-ministerial group.

Thank you, Minister. The Welsh Government have been correct to identify the continued delays to the introduction of European Union import checks, which are a risk to our collective biosecurity. The risk is intensified with the lack of access to European Union traceability, disease notification and the emergency response systems. The protection of biosecurity is a devolved matter, but obviously it is a commonsense approach that a UK-wide approach to this is adopted, with the UK Treasury funding any expenditure required on border controls. So, what further dialogue and assurances will the Welsh Government be seeking from the UK Government to ensure that Welsh farming interests are protected in the longer term?

I don't disagree with anything you said. I think this is now becoming very, very urgent, and I made that very clear to Victoria Prentis at the meeting last night. I also made it very clear that whilst—. I think we're on the same page with DEFRA on this, really, and the Scottish Government; we do want to see a UK-wide policy. But I made it very clear that they should not take our support for granted. If we see it and we're not happy with it, we will go on our own. As you say, it is a devolved area, and I am very concerned that these checks need to be carried out, because I go back to what we were saying about Ukrainian pets in my answer to Sam Rowlands—it's really important that we safeguard the public health of both people and animals here in Wales. This is the third delay now, and we've had to stop the design of our border control posts and, okay, we've started it again now, but have we got assurance about money? No, we haven't. So, I made it very clear again to DEFRA last night that we need the Treasury to come forward. You'll be aware my colleague Vaughan Gething, the Minister for Economy, made a statement yesterday in the Siambr on border control posts; I'm working very closely with him. But there is such uncertainty around what we should be preparing for, and what those border control posts should look like. Biosecurity, for me, is one of the most important parts of my portfolio.

I thank the Minister. 

The next item, therefore, is the topical questions, and the first question today is to be answered once again by the Trefnydd, and is to be asked by Rhys ab Owen.

Thank you. The UK Government's announcement of their intention to repeal the Trade Union (Wales) Act 2017 is yet another example of their contempt for the devolution settlement and their disrespect for this democratically elected Senedd. We will do everything in our power to resist it.

That's exactly right, isn't it, Trefnydd? Because, since the beginning of democratic devolution, by election or referenda, the people of Wales have voted time and time again to enhance the law-making powers of the Senedd. The very principle established through democratic means is being undermined by the Westminster Conservative Government. This very Chamber is being undermined. The Prime Minister's contempt for the rule of law and of devolution is judged in equal measure in this case. 

Plaid Cymru have warned on several occasions about the undermining of this place through the legislative consent memoranda process. I really hope that this Chamber now wakes up to this blatant disregard to our Siambr here, for the Westminster Government to undermine a primary piece of Welsh legislation through their own legislation. The time for stern letters, the time for fury, has come to an end. We need action. To borrow a phrase from those who had to fight for their democratic freedoms, it's time now for deeds, not words. So, Trefnydd, what is the Welsh Government doing to respond to this shameful and undermining act? Diolch yn fawr. 

Well, I don't disagree with anything that you said, and you're quite right, this is not the first time. It's happened before, and I think, again, when it has happened before, when they've overreached constitutionally, which they have, we've not been found wanting, and we've certainly challenged at every opportunity. Currently, the UK Government haven't taken any direct action, so there is nothing at the moment to engage with. But, obviously, the Counsel General will be having discussions with lawyers and with other relevant partners, and, if or when the UK Government do take some direct action, obviously Welsh Government lawyers would be ready to respond. I just think the UK Government is obviously incredibly anti-trade union in its stance, and its approach shows a complete disregard for workers' rights. But primarily it's that disrespect for devolution and for legislation passed by this Senedd that, I think, is so brazen at this time. 

Llywydd, at the last general election, the Tories came to communities like mine in Alyn and Deeside, and they promised to level them up; they promised to make lives better. And there was a clear implication in that, and it was: if you vote Conservative, you'll have more money in your pockets and more opportunities for you and the children. But that's far from reality, isn't it? Because, this week, we saw the stark reality of what a Conservative Government offers to working people.

Two years ago, Minister, they stood and they clapped key workers. What a shallow gesture this applause and their so-called levelling-up agenda has proven to be. The reality is that they are laughing at us. They are looking to remove powers from the Welsh Government with the sole objective of suppressing workers' pay and undermining their terms and conditions. Not only does that disrespect and undermine this democratically elected institution, but it disrespects and undermines the working people of Wales and their families.

Minister, will you take the message to the UK Conservative Government that communities like mine, and those communities across Wales, are angry? And will you take the message to them and share our anger with the UK Government? And could you outline, if the do make steps to progress this piece of legislation, how the Welsh Government will resist this change on behalf of the working people of Wales? And, finally, Minister, do you also agree with me—and I say this, Llywydd, as a proud trade unionist, for the record—that the way for working people to protect their living standards is to join a trade union? 

Yes, absolutely. I agree with your final point. It's a very important point that you raise. Again, I don't disagree with anything Jack Sargeant said. I think the levelling up—. How can this possibly be levelling up? It's an absolute disgrace, this assault on our devolution again. I outlined, in my original answer, what the Counsel General is currently doing, and what will happen if, or when, the UK Government do take any direct action, and the Welsh Government lawyers, as I say, will be ready to respond, if that's the case. I think it's just another example—the UK Government have complete disregard to the Sewel convention—of why the current devolution settlement really is in need of reform, and why we have set up the independent Commission on the Constitutional Future of Wales to consider ways of strengthening the current settlement, and this may well be an area they wish to look at, but, of course, that would be a matter for them. 

I speak as someone who strongly supports devolution, and I'm really pleased that we've got devolution of powers to the large English cities. But does the Minister agree with me that asymmetric devolution does not work, that the primacy of Westminster means that it can override any Welsh law and also interfere with any Welsh laws, that we need an agreed devolution settlement, with a proper reserved-powers model, as opposed to the reserved-powers model we've got at the moment, which has very little in common with a reserved-powers model, and, finally, that we need devo max? 

I think the primacy aspect of what Mike Hedges has said, in relation to the UK Government, is obviously very important. And I go back to my answer to Jack Sargeant—it's why we've set up that independent Commission on the Constitutional Future of Wales, and that can look very closely at the suggestions that Mike Hedges had, to see if we could strengthen the current settlement. 

I hadn't intended to stand, but I do recall, from correspondence with the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee, that today is the second meeting scheduled for the Interministerial Standing Committee, and one of the items—one of the two items—that was scheduled, and we thank Ministers for their transparency with the Senedd on this, was, indeed, UK inter-governmental relations. Would we be safe to assume—I believe that may be taking place, as we speak here now—would we be safe to assume that these matters are being laid on the table this afternoon for discussion? Because that is the forum that should be resolving these issues before they end up in legal challenges?

That meeting is indeed taking place. Obviously, I'm not in that meeting; that's why I'm in the Chamber answering this question. But I think we can safely say, I'm sure, that the Counsel General or the First Minister, or whoever is present at that meeting, will indeed raise that. 

I think one other point I would like to make is that, having looked into this now in far greater detail, the UK Government's position I think is very much weakened in that it did not challenge five years ago, during the intimation period. And suddenly to do this, to sneak it out in the way that they did—again, I just think it's a brazen attack. 

I thank the Trefnydd. The next question is to be answered by the Minister for health, and is to be asked by Andrew R.T. Davies.

Diolch yn fawr. Llywydd, Gwyn Williams, who is our ophthalmology clinical lead, along with the Royal College of Ophthalmologists, has worked with us to develop an eye care strategy, which we are now implementing. Over the past 12 months, eye care services have implemented considerable innovations to ensure that patients at risk of sight loss are seen and are treated. 

Thank you, Minister, for that response. The waiting times are horrendous for eye treatments anywhere in Wales. And there are difficulties across the United Kingdom; I accept that, Minister. Dr Williams highlights three points that he believes need dramatic intervention on behalf of the Government, working with health boards. The first is, obviously, changing working practices and actually using a wider base of professionals to, obviously, deal with eye care services; the second is the recruitment of people into the service to increase the capacity of the service; and the third is to create three eye care centres of excellence across Wales and actually look at what optometrists can do in their high street locations to, obviously, increase the service level that may be available for people with eye conditions.

Nothing could be considered worse, I would suggest, than actually losing your sight over a given period of time, when you know an intervention could stop that deterioration in your eyesight and going into a world of darkness. How confident are you, Minister, that the plan that you've put in place will meet the three objectives that Dr Williams has highlighted as of critical concern if we are to expand the service here in Wales and that in 12 months' time we will not be here still debating, still discussing, large waiting times for eye care treatment in Wales, and, regrettably, many people having the lights going off in their eyesight and darkness prevailing in their lives?

Thanks very much, Andrew. I absolutely am very aware of the fact that there are certain conditions where we have to move fast, and this is one of them, which is why what we've done is to ask clinicians to sort out priorities, to put people into categories so that we are really getting to the people who need the most urgent help fastest. Of course, what we are doing is implementing the recommendations of the Pyott report, and one of those is now being implemented. So, we've got two new surgical mobile theatres dedicated to cataract treatment. They're in operation in Cardiff and the Vale, and that was funded by £1.4 million of funding from the Welsh Government.

In terms of working practices, we are looking to change the rules. So, the rules currently say that high street optometrists, for example, can only check eyesight, but their skills go way beyond that, and we need to change the rules to allow them to do that. So, the process is not as straightforward as it seems to change the rules, but we are absolutely in the process of seeing how far and how quickly we can do that. 

When it comes to recruitment, of course, we're working with Health Education and Improvement Wales in terms of specialising and making sure we've got the right people to do the right things in the right place. And certainly, when it comes to high streets, we are very, very keen to make sure that they are a part of the solution to this problem. 

Since 2018, the policy in Wales is that eye care and the kind of care that is provided is based on the level of risk. It was innovative in that regard, with patients being seen according to how much risk they face. And the highest risk factor is for those who face the risk of irreversible harm. And for people with eye problems, that means the risk of losing their sight. Now, in order for a system like that to work, people have to be seen within a specific time frame. It’s as simple as that, and that’s why the target notes that 95 per cent of patients need to be seen within that time frame. It should be 100 per cent as far as I’m concerned, but that 95 per cent is statistically quite close. But we hear now that 65,000 people aren’t being seen within that specific time frame: 65,000 people facing losing their sight. 

I drew attention to this in the middle of the dark months of the pandemic, in February of last year. I was concerned about the impact of the pandemic, but we’re hopefully moving out of the pandemic now and the problems are intensifying. It’s bad enough when people are waiting in pain for orthopaedic treatment, perhaps, but we’re talking here about people who are losing their sight. 

We’ve heard about the NHS starting to receive post-COVID targets, therefore, may I ask the Minister, very simply, when does she commit not to decreasing the number of people who are waiting longer than they should, but to getting rid of these waiting times entirely? There’s no point having a system that is based on risk measures if you then leave tens of thousands of people open to the highest level of risk. 

Thank you. As you’re aware, I was pleased to see, for the first time, that those waiting for two years and longer, that those lists are coming down for the first time since the beginning of the pandemic. So, we’re travelling in the right direction, but, of course, we’re not travelling quickly enough. You must bear in mind in terms of the figures that we’re dealing with at the moment, that we published our plan in April, and it's April’s figures that we have. So, it does take time to put systems in place, and what we have now, for example, is the NHS Wales university eye-care centre. They are developing a workforce that can provide that sophisticated care and provide those opportunities for optometrists across Wales to work.

So, I am pleased to see that those structures in terms of risk are in place, but what we’re endeavouring to do now is to get through the list as quickly as possible, and that’s why having these places that stand alone and aren’t going to be knocked out for reasons such as urgent care and so on is so important. So, what we’re likely to see is that those lists will reduce far more quickly than we’ve seen in the past. If you look, for example, at Swansea, there's the new modular theatre there. We hope to see some 200 operations per month in addition to what happened previously. 

The next item is the 90-second statements, but Vikki Howells isn’t present to make the statement in her name. 

And so I’m going to have to move on to item 5, the statement by the Chair of the Public Accounts and Public Administration Committee on the Welsh Government consolidated accounts for 2020-21. I call on the Chair of the public accounts committee to make that statement, Mark Isherwood. 

Diolch, Llywydd. Good afternoon and thank you to you, Llywydd, for the opportunity to make this statement today.

Members may be aware that there has been a significant delay in signing off the Welsh Government’s 2020-21 annual accounts. To provide context, the previous Public Accounts Committee would usually undertake detailed scrutiny of these accounts annually during the autumn term, and we had hoped to continue with this in the Public Accounts and Public Administration Committee during this term. To provide context, as I've said, this has always occurred. 

The Public Accounts and Public Administration Committee was informally made aware last summer by both the Welsh Government and the Auditor General for Wales that the Welsh Government’s accounts for 2020-21 may be finalised later than usual. We were told that the delay was due to the additional work being undertaken by Audit Wales on support to business grants provided by Welsh Government. This, we understood, was a complex matter that needed further review and discussion between the auditor general and the Welsh Government. However, at that time, we expected the accounts to be finalised no later than November 2021, which is within the statutory time frame for doing so. Yes, 'statutory'; this is bound by law. Towards the end of November, we were alerted to a further delay, when the Welsh Government needed to advise Audit Wales of a potential post-balance-sheet event in order to ensure full transparency.

At the time, the Auditor General for Wales also wrote to us, confirming this further delay and stating that he had asked for further information to be provided to him by Welsh Government officials by early January 2022. This was accepted by the committee, and we agreed to await the outcome of this further work, respecting the necessary audit process required. We value the role and work of Audit Wales in ensuring that the highest financial reporting standards are adhered to and that this work should never be undermined, rushed or fettered. The auditor general is bound by duties to ensure that the appropriate checks and balances are in place.

I must stress that we cannot discuss the specific reason for the delay. Until the accounts are signed, we are not able to discuss this, as it is not in the public domain and, as we understand, could even be subject to legal proceedings. I also want to put on the record that, while the accounts have been delayed, the committee has been in receipt of regular private updates on the progress being made in finalising the accounts. These updates have been provided by the auditor general and the Welsh Government, enabling the committee to monitor the situation.

However, in February of this year, when the accounts were still yet to be finalised, I wrote to the Llywydd, expressing my concern about the delay. The committee was becoming increasingly concerned about its ability to scrutinise the Welsh Government on these important matters. This delay has resulted in statutory deadlines for financial reporting being missed. And, given that we are referring to the accounts of a Government, it is important that this matter and the concerns of the Public Accounts and Public Administration Committee are placed on the public record and raised in this Chamber to ensure that the wider Senedd is aware of the issue. I only wish more Members appreciated that and attended to benefit from this short session.

Section 131 of the Government of Wales Act 2006 requires the Government to submit their accounts to the auditor general for audit no later than 30 November in the following financial year—i.e. April to March. The auditor general is then required to lay before the Senedd his examination and certification of those accounts within four months of receipt of an auditable set of accounts. This is statutory, enshrined in legislation, and yet we are now in June, with still no clear indication as to when these accounts will be laid.

The purpose of these timings is to ensure that public accountability, scrutiny and reporting to Her Majesty’s Treasury can take place within a reasonable time frame. The Public Accounts and Public Administration Committee has a serious job to do in terms of scrutinising these accounts as they report the largest amount of public expenditure by any public body in Wales. And the timing of our scrutiny is designed to ensure that our work is relevant and able to influence the financial reporting in the following year. The delay in the signing of these accounts has undermined our ability to do this.

Yet, despite this statutory deadline having now been missed, there are no safeguards built into the process that prevent this, thus hindering scrutiny. We are concerned about the lack of recompense for deadlines being missed, and we do not want this to set a precedent for the future. In fact, the processes that apply to the Welsh Government are not comparable to provisions set out in other legislation for other public sector accounts.

For example, the Health and Social Care (Quality and Engagement) (Wales) Act 2020 states that the citizen voice body for health and social care must, for each financial year, submit its accounts to the Welsh Government and Auditor General for Wales no later than 31 August. However, the key difference is that should the auditor general not be able to lay these accounts before the Senedd because it is not reasonably practicable to do so, a statement must be made to that effect, which must include reasons as to why this is the case.

This legislation, like the Government of Wales Act, recognises that sometimes the four-month time frame cannot always be complied with, but that if such a situation arises, the Auditor General for Wales must keep the Senedd informed of the situation in a public and formal manner. The committee will be taking a closer look at these processes in due course, to see if changes can be made to bring the Welsh Government's financial reporting into line with the expectations placed on other public bodies in Wales.

I also want to place on the record that the Public Accounts and Public Administration Committee takes these matters very seriously and we will not rush or be pressurised into curtailing our scrutiny once the accounts have been published.

We anticipate these to be a more complex set of accounts, with several important issues, which we will need the time to scrutinise in detail publicly. We're well aware that these accounts will include significant public expenditure arising from the pandemic, which is a matter of public interest. It is imperative that we undertake this work, fulfil our role in the financial accountability cycle, and instil public confidence that we are holding the Welsh Government to account on its expenditure. We hope that we can look forward to being able to undertake this work in the autumn term accordingly. Diolch yn fawr.

Thank you, Mark Isherwood, for bringing this statement to the Senedd today. I think it's important that issues of this kind are brought out in public in front of the Senedd. The public accounts committee has undertaken scrutiny of the accounts of various public organisations on an annual basis for very many years. The work is very important, although not usually headline-grabbing. This work has seen year-on-year improvements in the presentation and accessibility of the annual reports and accounts by the public bodies that have appeared before the committee. There have previously been problems with the accounts of Natural Resources Wales, which I will not go into but which are a matter of public record, and these have also been reported to the Senedd.

The committee scrutinises the annual report and accounts of the Assembly Commission and the Welsh Government every year. The committee have found that this work has been an important driver of transparent financial reporting, having identified issues and made recommendations for improvements. And just a reminder: we're discussing the 2020-21 Welsh Government accounts. 

Over the last five years, the accounts have been signed and laid within the statutory time frame for doing so, normally early. The statutory deadline for financial reporting has been missed, and as Mark Isherwood said, section 131 of the Government of Wales Act requires the Government to submit their accounts to the auditor general for audit no later than 30 November in the following fiscal year. The public accounts committee should have approved the report, either at the end of the autumn term or in January.

Just a reminder: these accounts are produced by Government civil servants with no political involvement. I'm sure everybody is actually pleased that there is no political interference in the production of these accounts. This is very much an administrative matter.

Three questions for you, Mark Isherwood. When will the committee conduct its scrutiny of the 2021 accounts? Is further information still required by the auditor general from the Welsh Government civil servants? And how will this delay affect the 2021-22 audit of accounts?

Thank you, Mike Hedges, a valued member of the committee, who of course has been party to the attempted scrutiny thus far of this important matter. I think, as I indicated, and as you know from participation in the committee, we hope that we'll be able to scrutinise this now in the autumn, and we hope that by then the accounts will be concluded, will be laid properly, with all the outstanding questions addressed to the satisfaction of the auditor general, and we can finally get down to handling or dealing with our role in this. The concern, of course, as indicated, is not only about the time delay, where, by November this year, we will be a year behind already, but the failure for the learning from our scrutiny of these accounts to influence the next set of annual Welsh Government accounts, which are coming down the road fast and will not be in a position to benefit from the work we have done.

I look forward to you sitting around the table with me—hopefully in the autumn—and getting our teeth into this, holding the Welsh Government to account as necessary, dependent upon what these accounts conclude, but also retrospectively seeking to influence in any way we can the accounts in the following year where these apply to the same or related matters.

Thank you for giving me the opportunity to speak on this. I've only been a Member of the Public Accounts and Public Administration Committee for a year, and it's evident to me that, sadly, a lot of double standards exist here. I seem to be calling a spade a spade today and this seems to be the theme, so I may as well continue. Publishing the annual accounts has been delayed due to a Welsh Government payout; it's a simple as that. I expressed concerns previously and said exactly the same words during a business statement right here in this Chamber on 18 January 2022 about the delay, which in my opinion has hindered the work of the public accounts committee in scrutinising and holding the Welsh Government to account.

As a country, each year, countless individuals and businesses across the UK have to legally submit their returns to HMRC and Companies House, or face a fine for the delay. No-one likes to be fined, including me and many of my constituents in south-east Wales, and I'm sure all across Wales, and quite frankly, I'm just astounded by the delay here in the Welsh Government, and by the Welsh Government's lack of embarrassment for this. I would like to pay sincere tribute to my learned colleague Mike Hedges, who, week after week, month after month, has enquired about the updates to the accounts to simply no avail. I must also praise the auditor general and his team for his patience in this matter. In a world where the public's trust in politicians is not very favourable, I'd like to ask the Chair of the committee: Mark, do you share my concern that an unnecessary continued delay can only fuel the fire in the eyes of the public towards politicians? I am truly disappointed by the Welsh devolved Government, as I expected a much higher standard of respect for deadlines being adhered to by a political institution.

My second question to you, Mark, will be: do you agree, as the Chair of the Public Accounts and Public Administration Committee, that the Welsh Government is systematically failing its Members and also the public now for the lack of transparency, professionalism, and integrity in this delay, which does not appear to have any light at the end of this very long tunnel? Thank you so much.

I fully agree with the first point. The second point, given that I’m speaking as Chair of a committee, perhaps I shouldn’t comment on. We'll be scrutinising these accounts in the future. But I get your general gist and the basis for your concern, because as we’ve heard, over the last five years, the accounts have been signed and laid within the statutory time frame for doing so, and this time, that statutory time frame has been breached. That is a serious matter and it’s lucky, fortunate and essential that we have committees such as the Public Accounts and Public Administration Committee keeping a weather eye on this, and an office such as Audit Wales, and the role of the Auditor General for Wales, acting impartially but essentially and tenaciously in such matters to ensure that their role is conducted in accordance with their statutory remit. So, yes, I think you’ll take that as an agreement to the first point, but perhaps a diplomatic avoidance of responding to the second. Thank you.

I thank the committee Chair for that statement.

The next item, therefore, is the debate on the Health and Social Care Committee's report, 'Waiting well? The impact of the waiting times backlog on people in Wales'. I call on the Chair of the committee to move the motion. Russell George.

Diolch, Llywydd. I’m pleased this afternoon to debate the Health and Social Care Committee’s report on the impact of the waiting times backlog. I move the motion in my name.

What is important to say is that before the pandemic, people were already waiting far too long for diagnosis, care and treatment. COVID has of course made the situation worse across all specialities and all stages of patient pathways. It is frequently said that the equivalent of one in five people in Wales are on a waiting list for diagnosis or treatment. Behind those numbers are of course individuals whose daily lives and potentially those of their families, friends and carers are being affected by delayed diagnosis or care. Alongside written and oral evidence, the powerful case studies collected by the Senedd engagement team captured the experiences of people waiting for diagnosis or treatment themselves or for someone they care for, and we're grateful to everyone who was willing to share their experiences with us as a committee.

We heard about people who are in pain, discomfort or experiencing anxiety. And we heard about people whose needs are becoming more complex, which puts more pressure on health services and on unpaid carers, who may be asked to take on more complex caring responsibilities. We also heard about people who are less able to work, study or undertake their usual caring responsibilities, and whose costs of living have increased, of course, as a result of their condition. We also heard about the pressures facing the health service, and by the health and social care workforce, as they tackle the pandemic and the waiting times backlog. And, of course, we thank the social care workforce, including unpaid carers and volunteers, for all the work that they have done and continue to do. Without a sustainable, engaged and supported workforce—we must remember that the workforce is far broader than just doctors and nurses—we simply will not have the transformation in our health and care services that we need to see. 

Our report focused on the impact of the waiting times backlog, and what can be done to help people wait well. We are pleased that the Welsh Government accepted 26 of our recommendations in full, and the remaining one recommendation in principle. The vehicle for addressing many of our recommendations is the Welsh Government’s plan for transformation and modernisation in planned care and in reducing waiting lists in Wales. In recent weeks, we have gathered views on the plan in writing, and earlier today, actually, we as a committee, as members, met with stakeholders here at the Senedd. Stakeholders broadly welcome the plan; they want to see it succeed, as, of course, do I, but they also have concerns about whether the plan is sufficiently detailed, whether it provides a clear enough vision for the transformation of our health services, and whether there is enough capacity to deliver it. And that's a key message, actually, from the group of stakeholders I spoke with this morning. The key message was that the plan is great, the plan is ambitious, but they were concerned there is not enough capacity to deliver the plan. 

We all know it will take time to bring waiting times down. Audit Wales, in its recent report on planned care, estimates that it could take seven years or more to return waiting lists to pre-pandemic levels. It is vital, therefore, that people are supported to wait well. That's part of our recommendation 1. So, we strongly welcome the inclusion in the Welsh Government’s plan of a commitment to improve the information and support available to people while they wait for diagnosis and care.

However, while we welcome the developments such as the commitment to improving patient communication, particularly coming across this morning with stakeholders as well, they've told us that more information is needed about the time frame for delivery, how the power and experience of the third sector will be harnessed and how risks of digital exclusion will be managed. Some information and communications will need to be personalised and tailored to individuals’ needs to make sure that they have the right information for their circumstances. I heard a shocking experience this morning about how a template letter can sometimes have to go through 20 stages before it's finally agreed. However, stakeholders told us this morning that time, resource and expertise will be required for communication to be effective and accessible, and I would welcome further clarity from the Minister about what the Welsh Government can do to ensure that sufficient resource is available, and how a balance will be struck in national co-ordination to provide consistency of messaging and avoid duplication.

Health inequalities is a key priority for us, and we asked the Minister to explain how support would be targeted to people living in more deprived areas. We welcome the indication that a national group is being established to develop solutions to support local populations and identify how inequality gaps in prevention and planned care will be closed. We look forward to hearing more about the work of this important group in due course. However, in the meantime, stakeholders, including the Royal College of Physicians, and Macmillan Cancer Support, have told us that they are concerned that the Welsh Government’s plan lacks detail on how it will take account of and tackle health inequality. So, I would be grateful if the Minister could say something today about the work of the national group and how that will inform the implementation of the Welsh Government's plan to transform and modernise planned care.

Our report calls for the routine publication of waiting times data, disaggregated by specialty and hospital. The availability, transparency and detail of data was a real key issue that was raised by stakeholders this morning. Like us, they want to see more detail about the types of treatments people are waiting for, and that data broken down further. The Minister accepted our recommendation, but said that she is still considering her approach, including what information will be useful and meaningful. Stakeholders also told us that better data was needed about the health and social care workforce, warning us this morning as well that the age profile of staff in some specialties represents a cliff edge in terms of workforce capacity. It would be helpful if the Minister could tell us more this afternoon about the timescales for improving the availability of data in relation to waiting times and the workforce.

Reducing waiting times will require leadership and national direction. Stakeholders have told us that they broadly support the plan’s ambition, but that further detail is needed on the leadership arrangements and how change will be delivered, including how health, social care and third sector partners will be engaged and involved. Key issues raised include the role of the new NHS executive and regional partnership boards, and the need for greater clarity about how overall accountability for delivery is distributed between different local, regional and national planning programmes, project groups and networks. We also heard concerns about whether the plan does enough to recognise the impact of challenges in social care.

In her response to our recommendation 26, the Minister explained that she would hold health boards to account against their integrated medium-term plans, and that a new national director of planned care, improvement and recovery has been appointed to work with the NHS to ensure that local improvement plans meet the Welsh Government’s commitments and ambitions. However, I would welcome the Minister’s views this afternoon on stakeholders’ suggestions that an annual progress report should be laid before the Senedd, and that more needs to be done to encourage health boards to work together and increase the pace of developing regional models.

Finally, in our report, we explored the different ways in which the waiting times backlog is affecting different physical and mental health conditions and services. Stakeholders have told us that it isn’t clear to them whether all specialties are covered by the Welsh Government’s plan. For example, Cymru Versus Arthritis notes that it isn’t clear whether orthopaedics is included, and Mind Cymru has called for urgent clarification of whether the recovery targets apply to mental health services, particularly as delays to the mental health core data set mean that detailed waiting times for many mental health services are not available. I would be grateful if the Minister could clarify whether orthopaedics and mental health services are included within the scope of the recovery targets in the Welsh Government's plan. I look forward to contributions from Members this afternoon.

First of all, may I thank my fellow committee members for having collaborated with you on this report? I'd like to thank the clerking team and the wider support team and the research team, and everyone who shared with us as a committee their experiences and their expertise as we tried to better understand the impact of long waiting times for treatment. 

We're at risk at the moment of almost accepting that people are going to have to wait a long time for treatment. It's endemic. One could start to think that it's inevitable, but it isn't. And this report, I think, makes it clear in a number of recommendations that we can't accept the status quo, and that we can't accept that we will return to the pre-pandemic stage, as the Chair said.

The report makes a number of recommendations you could place under a broad heading of reducing waiting lists. We've looked at commissioning higher capacity to strengthen the workforce, to encouraging early diagnosis, to tackle health inequalities—those things that will make a different in the longer term—but I think it was timely to do a piece of work on dealing with the long waiting times we currently have and how they impact people. The statistics are frightening, with something like 0.75 million people in Wales on some kind of waiting list. And it's very important to always bear in mind that these are real people, not statistics, and that many of them are in pain, they're anxious, they see their health declining even further, they can't live their lives as they should, they perhaps can't work, and therefore we need to think of their well-being always as they wait. We make recommendations as to how to support patients as they wait, on investment in helping patients to manage pain, where there's been huge underinvestment. We need to inform people about alternative support that they can access in their communities whilst they wait, support through pharmacists and so on, and there are specific recommendations on those areas. 

It became very apparent to us that there are very fundamental weaknesses in the communication with patients. How many times have we as Senedd Members worked on behalf of a constituent who's reached the end of their tether because they simply don't know where they are on their journey through the health service, or how many times we have listened to someone whilst they explain their physical pain or their anxiety? Recommendation 19 relates to using technology as part of the communications work. I'm wearing another hat as the chair of the cross-party group on a digital Wales, and I will remind you of the words of the Deputy Minister Lee Waters in the Senedd, comparing the kind of service that we have in ordering something online, knowing exactly where your parcel is on its journey—comparing that with what we should expect in the twenty-first century in our health and care service, surely. You know that your Christmas shopping will reach you at 3.30 next Tuesday afternoon, but if you want to know when you'll get something far more important, such as a new hip, well, yes, you can knock on the door of your Senedd representative, but, as a rule, you would go to your GP, who would write to the health board, and they would write back—it produces work. It's ineffective and it leaves patients in the dark. It adds to that emotional strain faced by patients very often as they wait for treatment.

Dirprwy Lywydd, tackling waiting lists in the health service does have to be one of the great priorities of the Welsh Government, if not the priority, and holding them to account on the work that they do in tackling the problem does have to be a priority for us as a Senedd. That is why this report is so important. I'm pleased that the Government has accepted 26 of our 27 recommendations, and accepted the other partially, but we can't be content with that. And very often, in accepting a recommendation, what the Government says is that, 'Well, we're already doing this.' But this is a mountain to climb, and our message as a committee is clear: the Government is not doing enough as things stand, and the people of Wales are suffering as a result of that.

Can I start also by thanking the Health and Social Care Committee, along with Russell George's chairmanship, for bringing forward today's debate and report, 'Waiting well? The impact of the waiting times backlog on people in Wales'. As someone who isn't a member of the committee, I found this report extremely important, as the current waiting times across Wales impact everyone, and sadly impact my region of North Wales probably the most. In contributing to today's committee report debate, I'd like to highlight just three particular areas that the committee have looked into, which I think are key.

Firstly, as stated in the report, are the statistics regarding the waiting times and the data that should be made available. And as already outlined, around one in five people in Wales are on a waiting list—certainly not good enough, as I'm sure the Minister accepts. And behind these numbers, as Rhun ap Iorwerth has already said, are real people suffering day in and day out. And certainly, when looking at my region of North Wales, earlier this year in January 2022, which, of course, is going to be a peak time for a health board, but, nonetheless, there were around 148,000 patient pathways, people waiting to start treatment—148,000 people in a population of around 700,000 is quite a stark number. Of course, these numbers are repeated in other health boards, but I have a parochial interest as a North Wales regional Member, and want to see this number reduced as quickly as possible. Of course, it's not right that people are paying their taxes and national insurance for these health services, and yet, they're having to wait such a long time to be seen, and during that time waiting to be seen, they are, of course, having a difficult time and sadly are suffering. So, the first area is around the data and reporting the data and those statistics being readily available so they can be analysed quickly and easily.

The second area when looking at the impact of waiting times, and that the report highlights as a long-standing issue, is around the recruitment and retention of staff. As we know, the retention of existing staff is a huge problem for health services at the moment, meaning that the sector continues to struggle and maintain current staffing levels, let alone increase them, and it's certainly an issue in the region I represent in north Wales. Of course, if we want to attract more nurses and doctors and other healthcare workers to come in and work in the NHS, we certainly need to see some action to make the service more appealing and highlight the opportunities that come with it. And I certainly want to see our health boards performing well so we can see more people coming into the health service and taking those important jobs and we can retain them in those positions as well.

Finally, the third area, which has already been outlined in today's report and mentioned by the Chairman a little earlier on, is the need for really clear leadership and a clear plan to effectively deal with the waiting times backlog in Wales. Because, as we know, the problem, yes, was certainly exacerbated by the COVID-19 pandemic, but was certainly there before COVID-19 was upon us. And regretfully, whenever we see any waiting list statistics, it's the people of north Wales who continue to suffer the most. So, we urgently need clear leadership to take responsibility for a plan of action to rectify this and ensure that the people I represent are not forgotten about. And in this plan, there need to be effective measures to modernise the health service—again, as has already been mentioned by previous Members—with a renewed focus on innovation and digital, and moving forward with these innovative ideas, which will make the work of our front-line workers so much easier.

So, in closing, I would again like to thank the committee for their efforts and this piece of work. Also, I appreciate that the Welsh Government and the Minister have accepted 26 of the committee's recommendations in full and the other in principle, of course. Because the current situation is simply not good enough and it cannot continue; we can't afford for it to continue, for the sake of our people here in Wales. So, putting into action the committee's report could see real improvements to tackle this extremely concerning waiting list backlog in Wales, which we so desperately need. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Thank you to members of the Health and Social Care Committee for your report and for the opportunity to discuss waiting times on the Senedd floor today.

We know that the pandemic has had a profound effect on our health service, with waiting times proving a real problem. I welcome the announcement made by the health Minister earlier this year, ensuring that by 2025 no-one will be waiting more than a year for treatment in most specialities. And I agree wholeheartedly with the recommendations in the report to raise awareness of cancer symptoms, but we need to see more urgent action on cancer waiting times. A constituent contacted my office this month. They were told they had an urgent cancer referral following a visit to their GP, only to find out that urgent referrals are now 16 weeks or more. The worry and angst caused over these four months has an astronomically detrimental effect, not only to the individuals but their families and friends too. In your response to this debate, will the Minister please commit to making a statement on how Welsh Government will reduce the number of weeks and months people are waiting for cancer referrals?

Gareth Davies.

Thank you, Deputy Llywydd, for the chance to contribute to this debate today. As a member of the Health and Social Care Committee, I've been moved by the contributions and testimonies of those affected by waiting times crises here in Wales. The frustration that my colleagues in the NHS express isn't just the frustration at them being unable to do their jobs and, indeed, the jobs that they love; my colleagues feel that they are letting their patients down, leaving them in pain and agony, yet despite their best efforts and hard work in many cases, there is nothing that they can do. And after 11 years working in the NHS for Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board, I know exactly how they feel. But whilst the Government wants to squarely and only blame the COVID-19 pandemic, I will remind this Chamber, as other colleagues have done, that waiting times in Wales doubled in the year before the pandemic struck. On behalf of those who work in the Welsh NHS, I urge the Minister to properly listen to the committee's recommendations, and I must emphasise that this waiting time disaster needs addressing and fast.

Each one of the one in five people in Wales sitting on a waiting list, the 148,884 people under the Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board awaiting the start of their treatment, are indeed somebody's loved one, a loved one who is suffering during these delays. And with respect to emergency care, only 54.5 per cent of responses to immediately life-threatening calls arrived within eight minutes, down from 60.6 per cent in May 2021, and a staggering 58.3 per cent of amber calls to patients, which includes those suffering from strokes, took over an hour to reach. This Government can blame ambulance shortages, staffing gaps or the pandemic, but these issues and this backlog were here before COVID, particularly so in north Wales, as Sam Rowlands alluded to in his speech. And other UK nations facing the same challenges are faring better on this issue, with the median waiting time of 12.6 weeks as compared to 22.5 in Wales—sorry, the 12.6 weeks was in reference to the rates in England. It was beyond disappointing to me and many others when the previous health Minister said it was foolish to try and tackle these issues earlier on. However, what my constituents and NHS colleagues want, regardless of the cause of the backlogs, is this Welsh Government needs to get on with the solution.

Minister, it is positive that you have accepted the 26 out of the 27 of the committee's recommendations, and the last in principle, but I'm disappointed that you didn't provide sufficient detail on the implementation in your response, and this is not only my view but also the view of many key stakeholders, some of whom I was lucky to meet this morning in the health committee. And it's also frustrating that the reason given for your partial acceptance of the other recommendation, which is recommendation 23, was because it would be complicated. Knowing the Minister, I know there's nothing too complicated for you to tackle and resolve, and I hope that you will take another look at that. To highlight the importance of the initial recommendation of this committee's report, asking that

'In addition to setting out how the waiting times backlog will be addressed, the Minister for Health and Social Services must ensure that the Welsh Government’s planned care recovery plan includes a focus on supporting patients to wait well.'

And I'd just like to share with you the plight of my constituent, who is Miss Isolde Williams. She is just one of the many people who are suffering due to the treatment delays and has been waiting since her initial appointment in 2017 for specialist treatment and a replacement for her knee. And she shared this with me, and I quote:

'My quality of life continues to deteriorate. I am totally reliant on my car to get out, and I am scared of how bad I am going to get before I get this treatment. This delay has led to further problems in my leg and hip, and I just wonder when all this is going to end. I am losing faith in our health service.'

Unquote. In conclusion, Minister, what assurances can you give Isolde and so many others across Wales in her position that they will receive the treatment that they need as swiftly as possible and that no-one should have to go through these drawn-out delays without adequate support in the future? Thank you.

May I begin by thanking the committee for their work on this important report? I think that it's very difficult to read, but it reflects the casework that we all receive, and I think it's very important that we remind ourselves very often that there are people behind every statistic, and, although we see that there is a plan in operation, that doesn't make it easier for those people who are living in pain or in a situation that does endanger their lives.

I had a question specifically with regard to section 3 of the report about those who are paying to go private at present, and this idea that came across very clearly of a two-tier system, and the shocking fact, if truth be told, that we're seeing one of the consultants in hospital considering, when they look at a patient, 'Well, is this person going to be able to afford to go private or not?' and that that goes through their minds. That echoes something that I've heard with my casework, with people telling me that they're being encouraged to go private, and perhaps they look as if they can afford to go private, but the truth is that they can't afford to do so.

One of the things that angered them recently—perhaps people in the Chamber have seen the BBC Wales investigates programme about the NHS, and the interview with the chief executive of the NHS in Wales, where she denied that the health service is in crisis. The question asked to me by a constituent at that time was, 'Well, why isn't somebody willing to acknowledge the scale of the crisis? If people were to acknowledge and recognise that there is a crisis and an emergency, at least they would then acknowledge the size of the problem and the size of the pain that we're facing.' I think there is something in that, that we need to be honest with people instead of trying to hide behind different plans and schemes. One of the things that the same constituent asked me was, 'Well, am I meant to just accept that my life is less important, because the health service can't provide the treatment that I need for two years?' She knows that doctors have said that she needs treatment as soon as possible, that she could die, but she has to wait for two years before receiving that treatment, and she can't afford to do so.

So, Minister, what would you share as a message to those people who are in similar situations today? And are you willing to do what the chief executive of the NHS failed to do and acknowledge today that there is a crisis and that we should come together as a Senedd to ensure that we come through that crisis and ensure that things do improve for people in these crisis situations?

Can I start by thanking, firstly, the committee, Russell George in his chairing, and participants for their work in bringing this report forward? It's a really important report. Thank you so much. And can I welcome the Government's planned care programme and response to the report as well, published earlier this year?

Firstly, I want to draw attention specifically to Powys Teaching Health Board, within the region I represent. I understand that Powys is actually the exception to growing waiting lists and has managed to decrease its waiting list backlog over the last two years by around 5,000 individuals awaiting treatment. But that does stand in contrast to other health boards, whose waiting lists are, on average, around 26 times longer than Powys's. So, I would like to commend Powys there.

In June 2022, we had a new record of over 700,000 people in Wales awaiting diagnosis or treatment, and, as you will know, Minister, this is around one in five people waiting for treatment. This doesn't include what we guesstimate to be around 550,000 potentially missing referrals, identified in a Wales audit report, that are likely to come forward in the coming months, which, of course, we welcome, and we want to encourage those people to come forward.

According to this report, the current waiting list is yet to peak, and will only return to pre-pandemic levels by 2029 if the Government's objectives are achieved. I am concerned that the five ambitions outlined in the programme do not reflect the real capacity pressures and limitations on capital funding of the NHS, but I want to emphasise that we know, from the committee report, that it isn't all about finances, and it isn't all about money. With the anticipated increase in the number of patients waiting for treatment, and an already exhausted workforce, and our NHS bursting at the seams, may I ask you what steps have already been taken and will be taken in the next five months for this objective to be achieved? 

Another issue I would like to raise, which I know has already been raised, is carers' mental health. As the committee report demonstrated, the long waiting times severely affect patients and carers' health conditions and financial security. I fully support the Government's financial resilience plan for carers, outlined in a response to the report, but I do worry that carers have not been given full consideration by the Government. Carers have to face the uncertainty about whether their loved ones will receive the urgently needed treatment soon enough. They're not being communicated the expected waiting time for the treatment, nor any assistance available to them, which leaves them feeling isolated and abandoned, which my colleague Heledd Fychan touched on as well. They're often forced to leave their employment or education, and become an almost professionalised workforce, administering medication, perhaps with no regular medical and health support. As Mind Cymru stresses, it is essential that the Government does not leave our carers without consistent access to clinical, emotional and well-being support throughout this period.

So, to summarise, I wonder if you could respond to the following. Beyond the additional financial support, how will you ensure sufficient support for carers to also 'wait well'? What steps are being taken to identify individuals who should be formally recognised as carers, so that they do receive the support that they are entitled to? The goal of no-one waiting longer than a year for an out-patient appointment by the end of 2022 is a tall order, and I wonder how the Government has progressed towards this target. And, finally, Minister, NHS Wales, as I understand it, has had to return to Welsh Government almost £13 million in March. What changes are being made in the type and scope of funding being made available to health boards to ensure that they have the right resources to deliver against the plan? Diolch yn fawr iawn. 

I call on the Minister for Health and Social Services, Eluned Morgan. 

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Thank you for allowing me the opportunity to reply to this important debate around the 'Waiting well?' report and waiting times. I'm very pleased that we were able to accept almost all of the recommendations, 26 out of 27. Obviously, we haven't gone into the detail in the response, but obviously there's a lot more detail in the planned care plan. Now, I published our plan to modernise and transform planned care services in April. And I'm sure the committee was pleased to see that many of the actions in that plan reflect the committee's findings and recommendations. Now, we're already making good progress against this plan, although it was only published in April, and the statistics we have are from April, so, obviously it will take a little bit of time to get up to speed. What we are doing is to focus on what we're doing to support people while they're waiting to be seen. 

Now, I am intensely aware, as health Minister, that every one of those thousands of people who are waiting for treatment are individuals. They're often waiting in pain, in anxiety, their families are concerned about them, and it's of course our duty to make sure that health boards are supporting people while they wait. Now, we know that planned care recovery won't happen overnight. It will take time, and, as you are aware, I've set some very clear, but ambitious milestones to recover and to reduce those long waiting lists, but, as I've said before, this is not going to be easy.

In response to Heledd Fychan, look—. Are we in a crisis? Look, it's not great, but I don't think we're in a crisis, and I'll tell you why. Because we are seeing 315,000 people in secondary care alone every month. That's not including GPs. Three hundred and fifteen thousand. That's not a system that's broken. That's a system that's working very well. And all those thousands of people working in the NHS, I think, would accept that, yes, it's under massive pressure. My God, they are working for those 315,000 people they are seeing on a monthly basis.

And, in terms of funding, well, over the term of this Senedd term, we've said we're going to spend £1 billion. I've made £680 million available so far—£170 million for every year, plus £15 million each year to support planned care transformation projects and £20 million to support value-based pathways. Now, our plan has been developed in collaboration with NHS staff to ensure it's focusing upon the things that are going to make a difference to people and the staff, and they're key partners in implementing the plan. That's why it was important that we built it with them. I'm clear that we must support and continue to build our workforce across both health and social care over the coming years. They've worked incredibly hard over the last few years, and we need to continue to invest and support their well-being. I understand and I hear what you're saying in terms of concerns around capacity to deliver, that that's what you heard from the stakeholders. Now, we are going to be producing a workforce delivery plan to support the recovery plan, and that's going to be ready later this summer, where we're going to set out our approach to support staff. I do worry; I worry every single day about the hundreds of thousands of people who are literally just waiting for their appointments, and it is important that we let people know that we haven't forgotten them, that we are going to reach out to them and support them whilst they are waiting.

We are making great progress—a new service, the wellness improvement service at Cwm Taf Morgannwg University Health Board I think is really exciting. The programme supports patients to manage their conditions through an evidence-based lifestyle approach to improve their mental and physical well-being, and we're evaluating the advantages of a number of different models to support patients while they wait, including the Red Cross pilot across three health boards. 

Now, the removal of COVID restrictions in May means that we can now start to see and treat even more patients, but COVID is still with us and there are pretty high rates in our communities at the moment. I'm sure we all know somebody at the moment who's got COVID, and that's going to impact on health workers. So, we've just got to bear in mind that we're still living with a pandemic, and that's going to have an impact on our ability to deliver. On 27 June, there were over 600 COVID patients in hospital. Luckily, there were only eight in critical care.

Now, I know that waiting times are nowhere near where they should be. At the end of April, there were 707,000 open pathways. We're starting now, thank goodness, to see some improvements, and April data showed for the first time that the number of pathways waiting for over two years is now falling. Now, we are, as anticipated and as we predicted, starting to see more people requiring and being referred to secondary care, and the problem we have, of course, is that they keep on coming on to the lists. So, we've seen the demand increase—compared to two years ago, up 13 per cent. So, the January to April figures are 13 per cent more than what we were seeing at the same period last year. So, reducing waiting times and supporting patients while they're waiting is my priority; it's the health service's priority.

We have established a committed team. The national recovery director will lead the health service to ensure that our recovery programme is delivered. Every health board has been given additional funding to be used to help them to transform and to deliver locally, and some of that funding will be used to support patients on waiting lists.

Now, in the eight weeks since we launched the plan, there has been significant progress made. I just want to give you a few examples. Capacity for surgery has increased in Hywel Dda—they've bought temporary theatres for the Prince Philip Hospital—and there are two new theatres established for cataract care in Cardiff and the Vale, meaning that it will be possible to have 4,000 more surgeries in a year.

Buffy Williams was asking me about cancer care, and you'll be aware that there are new rapid diagnostic centres now in every health board. The Cardiff one will be coming online later this year. Seventy-five million pounds has been provided to upgrade diagnostic capacity, including new MRI and CT equipment. Twelve million pounds has been invested for linear accelerators in Betsi Cadwaladr and Swansea Bay, and, with the Welsh Government, Aneurin Bevan and Cardiff, we are investing £16 million extra in terms of endoscopy.

There are so many issues that you touched on: communication with people, the data, monthly updates. I'm getting monthly updates, so I'm keeping an eye on how we're progressing every step of the way, and then I can put a bit of heat on people. So, I was really disappointed, if I'm honest, with the cancer rates in April, and I was able to go straight to the health boards and say, 'Look, you need to step up here.' So, those monthly assurance meetings, for me, are going to be critical. I can assure you that our orthopaedics are in the targets.

And prevention, you know, you can't put everything into the planned care plan, but, of course, prevention is key. If you want to stop cancer, then you need to stop people smoking, you need to make sure that they eat well—all of these things—but you can't put it all into the planned care plan. We've got lots of other areas where we're doing that. The same thing with care. I spend a lot of my time working with my colleague Julie Morgan just trying to address the care issue that is so integral to our ability to tackle this issue.

We've introduced electronic systems for patient referral and advice across Wales. And, as a result, almost 15 per cent of referrals are now managed by advising patients rather than through new appointments for in-patients. Each of these steps will begin to tackle issues that have been raised in this important report. Some people will still, I'm afraid, have to wait for too long for some time. But I look forward to continuing to report on the work that's being done across our system to reduce waiting times and make things easier for people. Thank you very much to the committee once again for all of its work.

I call on Russell George to reply to the debate.

Diolch, Deputy Presiding Officer. Can I thank Members for taking part in this debate today? Can I also add my thanks, really, to the clerking team and the research team at the Senedd, who support us very ably and do so much work behind the scenes? So, thank you very much, diolch yn fawr iawn for your work supporting us as Members.

I think Gareth Davies pointed out in his contribution, of course, that people were waiting far too long for treatment and diagnosis well before the pandemic started, so we've got to keep that in mind at all times.

I think one of the themes that came across in the contribution today was communication. I think it was Rhun ap Iorwerth and Heledd Fychan who talked about the level of correspondence to their offices, and I have the same, and I'm sure we all do, in terms of people contacting us where that really, of course, shouldn't be happening, should it? We do need to have better communication with patients who are waiting and to support them waiting well. We heard this morning in the stakeholder meeting how, often, inappropriate letters can be sent out and inappropriately worded letters can be sent out. So, I think it's worth looking at our health boards and supporting health boards in terms of their communication—how they word and relay their messages to patients who are waiting. And, of course, those letters being sent in a timely manner as well. I think I relayed in my opening comments how one stakeholder mentioned there were 20 drafts for a letter to go through a process. Like I say, I'm grateful the Minister's looking at and querying that, and I think it's worth querying that process, because that then puts in a delay. You might want to get the letter right, but it puts in a delay in actually getting the letter out to patients.

Another theme coming across quite strongly this afternoon was, of course, the workforce and the retention of staff. This isn't just about recruiting staff; it's about the retention of staff. I think it was mentioned by Buffy Williams and Sam Rowlands, and again it's about perhaps those improved working conditions. But, all the time, the issue of capacity kept coming up throughout our work, and again at the stakeholder meeting this morning. And, again, the question really is: is there sufficient capacity to deliver the plan that you want to see? So, stakeholders are saying, 'Yes, I'm efficient'—

Russell, will you take an intervention from Altaf Hussain?

Yes. Absolutely, yes.

Thank you very much. I just wanted to ask the Minister, but it is good that I can ask the Chair about whether you have considered, going into these concerns, the human rights of the patients at any time. Thank you.

Thank you, Altaf, for your intervention. I think it's not something we specifically looked into in our committee report, but I think, from our perspective, what's important to us is that the backlog comes down. We know, we’ve heard from other Members’ contributions this afternoon, that we can talk about statistics, but it's about the real impact on people's lives. Again, the Senedd research team did a great job in actually demonstrating some of the very issues that people were dealing with, and their families, in terms of being on a waiting list.

But I think one of the other issues—. I think Jane Dodds mentioned the issue about funding being returned, interestingly, to Welsh Government, and Audit Wales pointed this out as well, of course. But the question is: why is that? Why? Because they can’t spend the money. Why can’t they spend the money? Is that a capacity issue? They don’t have the sufficient capacity to perhaps deliver that.

But arguably, I think, the greatest challenge of this Senedd is bringing back down that waiting backlog. It’s the Government’s responsibility and it’s this Senedd’s responsibility to hold the Government to account in that regard. I heard the Minister’s contribution—a few examples of specific examples within health boards. But what I think you didn’t say too much on, Minister, was perhaps on what could be done at a more regional level, perhaps, as well. So, we can see that there are individual examples within health boards, but there is that issue of health boards working together, and what could be done in terms of bringing forward that best practice, but regional health boards working collaboratively across each other as well.

But I do appreciate your sincerity, Minister. I appreciate your honesty in terms of the disappointing cancer rate figures. Keep on being honest with us, Minister, about the position, and I think that is helpful in that regard. But I think what is important is that we can’t simply aim to return to where we were back in March 2020. We’ve got to use this opportunity to reset, and we need to see sustainable investment in services, the workforce, the estate and infrastructure, a renewed focus on innovation, genuine and sustainable service transformation, and progress on prevention and tackling health inequalities to make sure that no-one is left behind. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

The proposal is to note the committee’s report. Does any Member object? There is no objection, therefore the motion is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

We move on now to item 7, a debate on petition P-06-1277, 'Save A&E. Withybush General Hospital must retain 24 hour, 7 days a week, Consultant Led urgent care'. I call on the Chair of the committee to move the motion. Jack Sargeant.

Diolch yn fawr, Deputy Presiding Officer. I’m grateful to the Business Committee in the Senedd for allowing us to debate the petition this afternoon.

The petition P-06-1277, ‘Save A&E. Withybush General Hospital must retain 24 hour, 7 days a week, Consultant Led urgent care’ was created by Jacqueline Doig and received 10,678 signatures. The petition itself states, and I quote, Deputy Presiding Officer:

'Moving care out of county puts adults & children at risk of poor outcomes or even death. It wastes crucial time, when time is not on our side.

'We have 125,000 residents & millions of tourists. By implementing the downgrades, HDUHB, will be knowingly putting their lives at risk. We re-iterate, we are a rural, widespread county, with poor roads and public transport network. Refinery, gas plant, ferry ports, firing range, extreme sports, plus one of the most dangerous professions: farming.'

'HDUHB may infer that the “Golden Hour” is no longer relevant, with better equipped ambulances & higher trained staff, but that is dependent on an ambulance being available to help & give that immediate care. That is increasingly not the case, as ambulances fail to attend, as they are being sent out of county, unable to offload and unable to return to county, to give the help needed.'

The petition goes on, Deputy Presiding Officer, to explain more events and situations that the petitioner and others have experienced.

But one of the innovations that the Petitions Committee has introduced this past year into our petitions process in the Senedd has been heat maps, and I know that may sound dull to plenty, but, actually, it's a really important point that I want to make this afternoon, Deputy Presiding Officer, because the maps actually show very clearly where petitions have been signed across Wales and the United Kingdom. This particular petition has one of the most clear-cut maps we’ve ever seen as a committee, with over 85 per cent of the signatures coming from the two Pembrokeshire constituencies. Clearly, this is an issue that provokes strong—extremely strong—local passion, and I’m sure that Members representing the constituencies this afternoon will explore those issues in greater detail.

But, I should say that that local passion for our health services in general isn’t restricted to Pembrokeshire: it exists everywhere, in every corner of Wales. And all of us in this Chamber are extremely passionate about the areas we represent, and we are equally passionate about our health services and the services they provide us. We all represent areas where our constituents are passionate about their services and the services that they receive, and the way that they are provided.

So, I'm very much looking forward to today's debate. I had the pleasure of welcoming today's debate to the Chamber, and I do look forward to hearing more about the concerns of people, in particular in Pembrokeshire, where this petition was so heavily signed, and the wider Hywel Dda health board area. But, I also look forward to hearing from Members across the Chamber of related issues and concerns in other parts of Wales. And, of course, we all look forward to the Minister’s response.

Deputy Presiding Officer, while this petition is about a hospital in Haverfordwest and the services that are provided there, the issue is one that resonates across the nation. So, I’m pleased to be able to open today's debate. I'm pleased to give the 10,678 people who signed this petition, in particular, a chance to raise their voice in their Parliament, the home of Welsh democracy, and I'm grateful that their concerns will be heard by the Welsh Government, and I very much look forward to hearing the rest of the debate. Diolch yn fawr.

I'm pleased to take part in this debate and speak in support of the petition to ensure that Withybush hospital retains its A&E department. This petition is not the first to call on the Welsh Government to protect services at Withybush hospital, and ensure that they are not moved further afield. And yet, despite Welsh Government Ministers and the local health board saying that Withybush plays an important role in the delivery of health services in west Wales, the reality is that we've seen more and more services relocated elsewhere over the years, and the proposal now to move A&E is indeed the final straw.

Now, as Members will be aware, Pembrokeshire is home to an oil refinery, two liquefied natural gas terminals, ferry ports, firing ranges and a large number of workers in higher risk industries, like energy and farming, as the Chair of the Petitions Committee has just said. Pembrokeshire also welcomes thousands of visitors to the county every year, something, incidentally, the consultation documents to build a new hospital do not take into consideration when talking of moving A&E services eastwards.

Surely, the arrival of thousands and thousands of visitors to Pembrokeshire must also be a factor when deciding to downgrade A&E facilities. Removing A&E facilities from Withybush hospital would undoubtedly deter people from visiting the area if emergency facilities were not available at the local hospital. Quite clearly, we need these essential services at Withybush hospital in order to support local people, who should continue to have access to first-class emergency services, and to support the tens of thousands of visitors who visit us on a regular basis.

Members will know that outcomes improve significantly if people receive the right care and the right treatment within the first golden hour of falling ill or being injured. And in a recent letter issued by the local health board, it acknowledges that for some of the communities I represent, travel times to access emergency care at a new hospital site will now be longer. Therefore, if Withybush hospital's A&E department is transferred further afield, then it's highly unlikely that some of my constituents will receive the right care and treatment within the first golden hour of falling ill or being injured.

In Pembrokeshire, we accept that we already have to travel further afield for specialist treatment, but forcing us to travel further afield for life-saving treatment and emergency services is totally unacceptable, and could put lives at risk. By the health board's own admission, Pembrokeshire desperately needs upgrades to its transport infrastructure, and that means that people living in areas like St David's or Fishguard, for example, will take much more than an hour to reach A&E facilities if they do not remain at Withybush hospital. 

From time to time, we see the A40 closed due to accidents, and getting further eastwards within the golden hour from places like Fishguard, St David's and Dale, under those circumstances, would be impossible. As I've rehearsed in this Chamber on several occasions recently, the ambulance service in Pembrokeshire is already so stretched that it's been struggling to cope, and so, if A&E services are moved further afield, that will have a huge impact on response rates and the ability to get people to A&E as quickly as possible.

As some of you will be aware, Hywel Dda University Health Board has now identified five potential sites as locations to build this new hospital and those sites are now under consultation. Nevertheless, I cannot be any clearer—none of these sites are acceptable. And I'll tell you why: in the consultation document, it is made quite clear that Withybush hospital was not identified as a site because, quite rightly, it would not be appropriate for Carmarthenshire residents to travel this distance for this type of care. Surely, therefore, it's not appropriate for the people I represent in Pembrokeshire to travel further eastwards for this type of care either. I therefore implore the Minister and the Welsh Government to intervene in this matter and make sure that A&E services stay at Withybush hospital—no ifs, no buts.

In fact, what the people I represent want to see is the Welsh Government and the local health board develop and modernise Withybush hospital’s infrastructure and ensure that it can continue to provide first-class health services in Pembrokeshire. The constant erosion of services at Withybush hospital has to stop. The paediatric ambulatory care unit must be returned, the A&E department must be safeguarded, and the Welsh Government must stop waving through proposals that take vital services away from the people who need it.

Dirprwy Lywydd, the protection of services at Withybush hospital is the No. 1 priority of the people I represent, and so I urge the Minister to intervene now and develop a new approach for the delivery of health services in Pembrokeshire—an approach based on listening to the people of Pembrokeshire and providing them with a guarantee that services will be safeguarded and invested in for the future.

I’m very grateful for this opportunity to respond to this petition. Much of what I had intended to say has already been said. But certainly, during last year's election campaign, concern about the future of Withybush hospital, specifically the future of the accident and emergency department, was something that was frequently raised on the doorstep when I was canvassing in Pembrokeshire. Unfortunately, in several parts of the county, the uncertainty, the recent reorganisation, as we've already heard, and the loss of services, such as the paediatric service a few years ago, have led to a loss of faith and confidence in general in Hywel Dda health board and in the Welsh Government.

In the meantime, residents, including the vulnerable and older people, are concerned about the possibility of losing the accident and emergency provision, which has literally been a life-saving service for many of them, and for their families and neighbours. Since I was elected to this place, this strength of feeling towards safeguarding the future of Withybush hospital has become even more pronounced. Earlier this year, I was very pleased to attend a rally on the hospital site to support the retention of emergency services at Withybush hospital. In the meantime, the concerns about the hospital’s future have increased.

Plaid Cymru has long argued that people should have the right to essential services, which clearly includes A&E departments, within a reasonable distance of their homes in all parts of Wales. The potential for healthcare reform in the area by building, potentially, a new hospital is creating more uncertainty in Pembrokeshire. Whilst I recognise the opportunities that opening a brand new hospital would bring to west Wales in terms of recruiting specialist staff, providing improved clinical facilities and research opportunities, there is no doubt that, despite the health board's efforts, very real and pressing concerns remain that this could see vulnerable residents living on the far peripheries of west Pembrokeshire being put at risk should emergency health services be called for.

This strength of feeling is evident, as we've heard from Jack Sargeant already. The loss of A&E provision from Withybush to some of the proposed hospital sites that were announced last week could see distances for residents living in St David's more than double, from 16 to 36 miles. A similar doubling of journey lengths would also be seen for areas such as Milford Haven, Fishguard and Angle. I know that many residents are extremely concerned about the impact of this increase in journey times to A&E, particularly when considering the significant influx in the population in Pembrokeshire, as we have heard again already, during the height of the tourist season, as well as the concentration of industrial activity found on the Milford Haven waterway.

It's also important to note, Dirprwy Lywydd, that the concerns about the impact of the loss of accident and emergency provision aren't just anecdotal. Evidence exists that supports wider concerns, not to mention the importance of the golden hour response, as the public in general are aware of. A previous study by the University of Sheffield, which investigated 10,500 emergency cases, found that an increase of 10 km in a straight line distance travelled from an A&E department is linked to an absolute increase of approximately 1 per cent in mortality, particularly for those with respiratory conditions. With some proposals seeing areas such as Milford Haven and Pembroke Dock facing an increase of over 30 km to the nearest A&E, it's understandable why so many people are concerned about the future of local healthcare provision.

I acknowledge the challenges that the Hywel Dda health board faces all too often, especially bearing in mind the chronic lack of capital investment that there has been in the health board in west Wales, as compared to other health boards in Wales. However, as the discussions regarding the new potential hospital continue, it's vital that the health board and the Welsh Government pay careful attention to the genuine concerns expressed by the residents of Pembrokeshire, and that they take decisive action to ensure that access to emergency services, and residents' right to access these services, isn't undermined by any proposed reforms to the area's health system.

Can I thank the Petitions Committee as well for bringing this forward? I do echo your points, if I may, Chair, around that fact that any hospital closure, any transition, any change or new location does produce anxiety and challenges. I present a balance here. I’ll be honest and say that I haven’t heard loud calls, in terms of people who have contacted me, in favour of us keeping Withybush, but it has been a balance. Many people have said that they want Withybush to stay, but there are also others who have accepted the need for change. They understand the challenge of the geography of the area, the sparsity of services, the profile of the residents, and the seasonal churn, as we’ve heard, in population, which does require a change in approach. I do echo many of the comments that have been made to date.

People are really concerned about the distance that residents, particularly in the west of Pembrokeshire, would have to undertake, and those new services and the transition to those services. As an absolute minimum, residents need certainty and a commitment that the emergency care centre at Withybush will not be downgraded until any planned new hospital is fully functional and has been tried and tested with a period of clear review and engagement with patients and their families, and that the new integrated health and well-being centres are also fully functioning. As we’ve heard, ambulance response times have repeatedly made headlines for all the wrong reasons, so it’s very understandable that people are raising concerns around the distance for patients to any new hospital site and A&E.

In conclusion to my very brief contribution to this debate, I would be interested to hear from the Minister about any reassurances that she can give about any new model being proposed by Hywel Dda, and the potential locations as well, ensuring that patients will be able to get the right care at the right time, particularly those patients who need that emergency care. Thank you. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

I'm pleased that we have another opportunity to raise the issue of keeping a 24-hour, seven-day-a-week accident and emergency department at Withybush hospital in Haverfordwest. I'm grateful to the Chair and the Petitions Committee for bringing this forward.

May I begin my contribution by paying tribute to the efforts of local Pembrokeshire people, who have co-ordinated and organised this latest petition, which has brought this subject yet again to the floor of the Senedd? Under several guises, the local campaign has been running for a number of years and has managed to co-ordinate support to maintain services at Withybush. We've seen petitions signed, rallies taking place outside of this Chamber, and marches through Pembrokeshire towns, all of which I've attended and all to draw attention to the threats to local health services. I'm pleased to see several campaigners in the public gallery this afternoon. I also want to pay tribute to the staff, who, despite the decade-long threat of downgrading and removal of services, continue to fulfil their roles with consummate professionalism. And it would be remiss of me not to thank Paul Davies, my constituency neighbour and good friend, for everything he has done on this matter. The Member is a true champion for this hospital.

I have to say that in my near 14 months as a Member of this place, not a week goes by without me being contacted by a constituent regarding their concerns over the removal of A&E from their local hospital. Whilst Withybush is not housed in my constituency, many of my constituents are patients there and rightly hold it in very high esteem. But despite all the platitudes and campaigns, we are still in the position that we have been in for the last decade, with the future of A&E services at Withybush and Glangwili under threat. Withybush, let's not forget, has lost a number of services over the years, thanks to decisions taken by this Labour Government. But, for the sake of clarity, it is worth me reiterating again that today's debate is focused solely on the retention of A&E at Withybush. I urge the Minister, in her response, not to fall into the trap of talking about wider plans for reorganisation, as that does nothing to diminish the anxiety of local people specifically relating to A&E provision.

I'm not going to repeat all of the arguments as to the importance of vital services in west Wales, especially to the local people who rely on a good-quality, fully operational A&E service at both Withybush and Glangwili, but we must also consider the influx of visitors who see the population of west Wales swell over the summer months, enjoying all the excellent attractions and beautiful countryside and coastline that the county has to offer. Some Pembrokeshire communities are already at least 45 minutes away from Withybush, and with potential sites for a new hospital finally being announced, there is no prospect of these services getting closer. But let me take you back to the tactics that those who want to see the removal of A&E are using.

Organisations will often send me a briefing paper before debates. Imagine my surprise when Hywel Dda's arrived in my inbox earlier this week. I had to read it a few times to ensure that the information that they were giving was relevant to this debate, as it ignored the petition title and skirted over the issue of A&E closures in a way that, no wonder, causes local people to be concerned and anxious over the future of their A&E department. Instead, the brief focused on the wider health board reorganisation, selling the dream of a new superhospital for west Wales—the same dream that they've been selling for the last decade and that will not be, in their words, 'realised' until the end of this decade at the earliest.

Minister, I absolutely appreciate that the way healthcare provision is provided needs to change, but we are always going to need an A&E department. There will always be patients needing emergency care close to home, from heart attacks and strokes through to broken legs and head injuries. To move that service further away from communities is foolhardy to say the least, and callous at worst. If promises are upheld and the hospital remains on the Withybush site once the new hospital is built, then why can't it house an A&E department? Why can't the new hospital and the retention of A&E services at Withybush coexist? The five preferred sites of the new hospital exist along a 12-mile stretch of the A40, a road that is often a single carriageway, suffering from heavy traffic and many accidents, and I've not even touched on the pressures our ambulance services are currently under.

Minister, I could go on, but for too long and too often, west Wales is forgotten in the policies of your Government. Local people deserve better and they feel their voices are not being heard. I run a poll on my website and social media giving local people a voice, a way to air their views on where they would like to see a new hospital located. Whilst not hugely scientific, less so than the heat map that the Chair of the Petitions Committee mentioned earlier, it is overwhelming: 82 per cent have voted to maintain A&E services on the current site.

The Member must conclude now, please.

Minister, these aren’t just my constituents or Paul’s constituents, these are your constituents too. They do not back the proposals to remove A&E services. Please offer some certainty to the constituents of mine, Paul, Joyce, Jayne, Cefin, and yours, that lives will not be put at risk should A&E services move further away from where they're currently situated, because nothing I’ve heard up until now from the Government or the health board gives me any confidence that a change of policy or direction is forthcoming. Diolch.

I call on the Minister for Health and Social Services, Eluned Morgan.

Diolch yn fawr, Dirprwy Lywydd. The people of Wales deserve health services that deliver the best possible outcomes for patients. We will be guided by the best and most up-to-date clinical evidence to deliver that high-quality care. Today’s debate is a subject that we’ve discussed on numerous occasions and I therefore make no apologies to Members that they will hear again why services must change. We need improvements if we are to provide health services that the people of Wales deserve. That was the conclusion of the Parliamentary review of health and social care. The review clearly advocated the need for a revolution in our health and care system to meet future demands, and I’d like to remind the Conservatives about the previous debate, the one before this, where they were asking for radical transformation: the parties in this Senedd signed up to those recommendations, and let me tell you that west Wales has not been forgotten. If plans to develop a new hospital were to proceed, this would represent the largest public sector investment ever to happen in west Wales, delivering a brand-new, cleaner, greener facility, and massive opportunities for local people, and I know on which side of that debate I would want to be. Hywel Dda University Health Board is responsible for the provision of safe, sustainable, high-quality healthcare for its local population, including acute and emergency services. It’s been consulting on a range of proposals as part of its 20-year health strategy. The Welsh Government is currently scrutinising their programme business case and no decisions have yet been made.

The health board continues to make it absolutely clear that duplication of services across its sites leads to fragility. Multiple sites cannot sustain the necessary expertise nor the scale needed to provide optimum 24/7 care. And as someone who is based in St David's with a 90-year-old mother, I know that I would rather travel an extra few miles to see an expert quicker than spending hours on end in A&E, as is currently the case. The health board’s programme for transformation has been designed by clinicians specifically to ensure proposals are safe for patients. The health board reached this current proposal after what was regarded as an exemplar engagement process with many communities over many months. Now, the proposal to build a new hospital that will have state-of-the-art emergency-care facilities is intended to improve standards of care. The proposal means that it will be possible to have timely access to decision makers at a senior level who can assess patients, and it’ll also lead to an improvement in terms of training opportunities for our professional staff, and attracting staff, when we’ve got an ageing workforce, is going to be difficult. And let’s just be honest about how difficult it is at the moment to attract people.

In accordance with our expectations, and the policy for all health boards, Hywel Dda University Health Board is developing their six-point plan for emergency care, and this includes the whole accident and emergency care, from primary care to health services, and social care in the community, which is at the heart of our communities. The priority of the health board is to maintain safe services. The health board continues to work through the details of its plans. It's engaging with stakeholders, patients, carers, citizens and partners to help to shape these proposals, and I encourage anyone who has an interest to continue to participate in that process. 

Of course, I understand the concerns that people have on a local level in Pembrokeshire about Withybush hospital, so I want to be entirely clear that the hospital will continue to play an important role in the future of healthcare services in that area. We can't keep everything as it is and also secure the change required. It is misleading to suggest that that is a possibility.

Every day, I am told where the greatest pressures on the NHS in Wales are, and Hywel Dda appears on that list regularly. Every day, despite the heroic efforts of staff, people are waiting longer than they would wish to because it's difficult to recruit to Withybush hospital. For the large number of people in west Wales who are awaiting surgery, the ability to separate emergency cases from planned care would be a positive step forward. And once again, may I remind the Conservatives that they ask us to do more of this continually? You're constantly asking us to do this, and this would allow us to do it. It means that there isn't so much disruption on planned surgery. 

So, those people who are waiting for hip operations in places like Pembrokeshire need to understand that having A&E and planned care in the same place, you're constantly being thrown out. And we've got an expert amongst us, who's an orthopaedic surgeon, who knows that that is the situation. You keep on asking us to separate things; this is an opportunity to do that—

Minister, you need to conclude now, please.

for us to really tackle those waiting lists. Let me just be clear, there has been no decision on the hospital yet. I'm sitting next to the finance Minister here, and she'd have to find a hell of a lot of money. This is not straightforward at all. And, of course, as somebody who represents the area, I would not be allowed to make a decision, but let me tell you, as the person responsible for health in Wales, I cannot be in a situation where we are not organising and planning for what the future will look like, and we have to plan something that is sustainable. Let me make it absolutely clear that A&E will remain in Withybush until a new hospital is built. We've got a long, long way to go and lots of hoops to jump through before we get to that point, and, of course, there will consistently be a doctor-led minor injury unit that would continue under the plans proposed by the health board.

I call on Jack Sargeant to reply to the debate.

Diolch yn fawr, Deputy Presiding Officer. On behalf of the Petitions Committee, can I thank all the Members who have spoken in this debate this afternoon, and all the Members that actually represent constituents there and who use the services at Withybush, including the Minister, as she rightly said? This has enabled today an important issue to be raised. We've heard already that this is not the first time it's been raised in the Chamber; I'm sure it probably won't be the last time it's raised in the Chamber.

I think Paul Davies mentioned in his contribution that this is the No. 1 priority for his constituents. That resonates, doesn't it, with the 85 per cent shown signatories on the heat maps? And in his powerful contribution, Sam Kurtz raised that Paul Davies is a true champion of the hospital, and Sam's own powerful contribution, and his 82 per cent from social media polling, shows this is clearly a topic of interest for those in Pembrokeshire. Cefin Campbell also referenced the importance of this on the doorstep and how many times the services and the need for safeguarding of the services came up with him. He noted the efforts and challenges of the health board of Hywel Dda, but also that the uncertainty remained, and called for clarity on that. My colleague Jane Dodds provided balance to the debate this afternoon, understanding again that there needs to be a change in approach, but did note the concerns raised by other Members, and you've had some of them yourself. And I think you called for a commitment not to downgrade services, if I'm right in saying, until a new fully functioning location and hospital was in place, and then after a review of that particular hospital. And the Minister, in response, made it very clear, I think, that the A&E services will remain in place until a new hospital is in place, and we are some way away from that. And if that was to go ahead, it would be the largest public sector investment in Wales, one that would be designed by clinicians based on clinical evidence.

But as I said, Deputy Presiding Officer, in closing today, I do want to thank the petitioner in particular, who, over the last decade, has been putting this on our agenda, and it was another opportunity again, and I'm sure, again, that it won't be the last. I thank all of those who supported the process. But can I end, Deputy Presiding Officer, if you'll allow me, by just taking a little bit of time here to say thanks to all those staff and those who support Withybush hospital, and all those staff in the NHS across Wales, because we do need to thank them—they do go above and beyond for us, our families and our constituents every single day, and I think we need to remind ourselves of that and praise them at every opportunity? Diolch yn fawr.

The proposal is to note the petition. Does any Member object? No objection, therefore the motion is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Item 8 is next and it's the first Welsh Conservatives' debate this afternoon on diabetes. I call on Russell George to move the motion.

Diolch. Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer. This is the first of two Welsh Conservative debate this afternoon, and I think the Minister will be pleased that our second debate isn't on health as well; she's had a busy afternoon, I know. I do move the motion in the name of my colleague Darren Millar this afternoon.

Diabetes is a ticking time bomb and I don't think that we have talked enough about it in this Chamber, and that's why this is the subject of our debate this afternoon. Eight per cent of adults in Wales suffer from the condition, and by 2030 the number of adults with diabetes in Wales is likely to grow further from 8 per cent to 11 per cent, and that's according to Diabetes UK Cymru. Wales also has the highest prevalence of diabetes of any of the UK nations. And I should really say that unless diabetes is tackled, of course, it can lead to such serious conditions that are preventable—sight loss, loss of limbs, stroke. It's a very serious disease that, with the right and treatment, is entirely preventable. And, of course, the other issue is that the increased trajectory of those suffering from diabetes in Wales puts a huge strain on the NHS. It's an enormous strain on the NHS at the moment: diabetes already costs it approximately £500 million a year—that's 10 per cent of the annual budget, and around 80 per cent of that is spent on managing complications, most of which can be prevented. So, there's a huge cost and a huge increase in the number of people potentially facing this disease. And as point 2 of our motion says today:

'Expresses concern about the rapid increase in the diagnosis of diabetes over the last 20 years.'

So, it seems to me completely reasonable for there to be an action plan produced to see how the Welsh Government intends to slow down this trend, not only, of course, for the good health of the nation, but also to take pressure off the NHS and allow it to focus on less preventable conditions. 

I did find it concerning to read that there is an estimated—this is according to Diabetes UK Cymru—over 65,000 people in Wales living with undiagnosed type 2 diabetes, and these people need help, of course, to manage the care that they face and prevent further health conditions occurring. Of course, if that's not dealt with, not only is it bad for their health, but of course, then, it's putting further pressure on health services as well. So, what really persuaded me that we needed to discuss diabetes this afternoon is when I looked at, 'Well, what's the Welsh Government's plan?' So, I did some research, I could see some research from Diabetes UK, and it seems to me that the Government hasn't got a plan for diabetes currently. I might be wrong. I'm looking to see if the Minister will say to me, 'Yes, there is a plan', but from my research, the only plan that I could find, or the latest plan that I could find, was the 2016-20 plan—that was the most recent plan that Welsh Government had brought forward, and there's currently no other plan, and that plan, of course, is now extremely out of date as well.

So, I want to hear Members' contributions this afternoon. I will say that we will be supporting Plaid's amendments today; they all add to our debate. I'm disappointed, of course, that the Government has deleted most of our amendment, even though I think it just is a factual position, not just a political view, but a factual position; we're having factual positions being deleted from our debate this afternoon. But unless—. I do really think, Minister, that we do need that plan. Having a plan for diabetes is not only good for people's health across Wales, but having that diabetes plan will also help to take pressure off our NHS staff and workforce as well. But it's such a serious condition, which is preventable. As I said, people can lose limbs, lose eyesight, a greater cause of stroke—all these issues that are absolutely preventable. So, I hope, Minister, you will agree to bring forward a plan this afternoon.

I have selected the four amendments to the motion. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be deselected. I call on the Deputy Minister for Mental Health and Well-being to move formally amendment 1, tabled in the name of Lesley Griffiths.

Formally.

I remind Members that they have three minutes for contributions to this debate and the next. I call on Rhun ap Iorwerth to move amendments 2, 3 and 4, tabled in the name of Siân Gwenllian.

Thank you very much, Dirprwy Lywydd. I move those amendments. This is a very important debate. It's a timely debate, and I'm very pleased that the motion was put forward by the Conservatives. I attended an event in Cardiff Bay earlier this month—the Deputy Minister spoke during that event—organised by Diabetes UK Cymru and sponsored by James Evans, where attention was given to a campaign to provide psychological support for people living with diabetes. And that was an eye-opener for me, because it gave me a new way to think about the impact of this condition. It's a condition that permeates all parts of the lives of those who live with it, and not having psychological support can lead to exceptionally negative impacts on the well-being of the individual, who, as well as that, has to live with the physical effects, of course. And I ask you to support amendment 4 by Plaid Cymru today that calls, in accordance with the campaign of Diabetes UK Cymru, for that specialist psychological support, and that that should be available to everyone as a default.

Let me remind you what we're talking about here today. Wales has the highest rate of diabetes in the United Kingdom. The number of people receiving a diagnosis of diabetes has doubled in 15 years and it continues to increase—diabetes type 2 is 90 per cent of those cases. And as Russell George said, there are tens of thousands who perhaps haven't yet received a diagnosis.

In terms of the cost to the NHS, it's a figure that we've talked about for years, that as much as 10 per cent of the entire NHS budget goes to dealing with supporting and providing treatment for those with diabetes, including for those serious complications associated with diabetes. So, in terms of the human cost and the financial cost, there is plenty of incentive to raise the game in our response to diabetes. You will have heard me talk about the need for a revolution in preventative care. According to Diabetes UK, half of the type 2 diabetes cases could be avoided by supporting people with changes to their lifestyle with regard to eating healthily, physical exercise and weight loss. That is shocking, and it should be an incentive to drive that revolution that I'm calling for. I'm calling upon you to support amendments 2 and 3 from Plaid Cymru today, which refer to the investment that needs to be made in preventative measures and to publish a diabetes prevention plan, a specific plan to prevent diabetes, based on encouraging a better diet, physical exercise, and to fund that. Think again about that figure: 10 per cent of the NHS budget goes on the response to those numbers that are far too high of people who are living with diabetes, and nothing demonstrates better the advantage of putting preventative policies in place that are innovative. 

Earlier this month, the all-Wales diabetes prevention programme was introduced. It's a step forward, but it isn't as robust as similar programmes in England and Scotland. It isn't funded to the same level as those programmes, but— 

The Member must conclude, please.

I'll conclude my contribution now. We have to make that shift from needing to spend a great deal because we fail to treat people in time to spending less through preventing these issues in the first instance, and this is an excellent example of that. 

Jayne Bryant. You are unmuted, Jayne.

Diolch, Deputy Llywydd. I didn't hear you call me. 

As the chair of the cross-party group on diabetes, I'd like to thank Darren Millar for bringing forward this important debate. As we've heard, diabetes directly affects hundreds of thousands of people in Wales, and that number is multiplied several times when you consider the families of those who are diagnosed. Despite the huge number of those affected, awareness, support and education on the disease is still sadly lacking, and I do believe that far more can be done. 

In terms of awareness, the key to avoiding the more severe complications with diabetes is good management of the condition, and this can only be achieved if the person knows that they have it. Early diagnosis for type 1 and type 2 diabetes is absolutely critical and seems obvious, yet one in four children in Wales are diagnosed with type 1 later than they could have been. We know that there have been improvements within our health service, but, as ever, more can be done. 

I was very pleased this week to receive an e-mail from the Aneurin Bevan University Health Board raising awareness of the symptoms. For type 1, especially in children, undiagnosed diabetes is a medical emergency.

Jayne, will you take an intervention, please?

Yes, of course. 

Thank you. I'm grateful for your taking the intervention. You've mentioned type 1 and type 2 diabetes, but one that makes up about 9 per cent of all diagnoses is type 3c diabetes, which is something that my father suffers from, and that goes far too often undiagnosed for those who suffer from pancreatitis and pancreatic cancer. What more do you think we can be doing to make sure that people are aware that type 3c diabetes is an ailment?

Absolutely, Sam, and I think that's a key point. And there are more than three types of diabetes as well. I think that that is something that many people need to understand, that there are other types. And the more that we can do to raise awareness of those and the symptoms, the better, I think. 

So, in terms of type 1, parents are urged to look out for the four t's: thirsty, tired, toilet and thinner. If parents notice any of the key symptoms, they need to make an urgent GP appointment, or contact their out-of-hours service. For type 2, Frances Rees, who is the primary care diabetes team leader at Aneurin Bevan University Health Board, says that recognising the symptoms of diabetes plays a significant part in preventing the development of complications. The sooner they're identified, the better the outcome. I'm glad that health boards are trying to get this message across, but more can always be done, and the Welsh Government can play a key role in this, as, for many, the false perception still remains that you're only at risk from diabetes if you're elderly or overweight. 

On top of awareness, I'd also like to focus on how Wales can improve the psychological support offered to those diagnosed. Given the additional burdens that people living with diabetes face across their life span, the negative impacts that these burdens have on psychological health and the complexities that diabetes can add to psychological and cognitive issues, it's clear that specialist psychological support and treatment should be available to all those who need it.

The inspirational Dr Rose Stewart, a consultant clinical psychologist at Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board and a Diabetes UK champion, recently produced a value-based action plan for diabetes psychology in Wales titled 'From Missing to Mainstream', and she said a number of things in that plan that I think are really pertinent to the debate today. The action plan wants to see diabetes psychology becoming mainstream, embedded in routine care, accessible and flexible, so people living with diabetes feel supported in managing their condition, wherever they live. 

Jayne, you need to conclude now, please.

Okay. Thank you. Thank you, Llywydd. I'm pleased that Welsh Government have already committed to giving all people living in Wales with diabetes the best possible care and support, but actions need to follow words, and I hope that the latest review will include a greater commitment to psychological care, whilst also continuing the good work already being done on increasing awareness of this incredibly important issue.

You'll be pleased to know the chair of the cross-party group has taken a minute out of my speech, so you'll be glad to know about that. I'm very pleased to have the opportunity to speak in this debate today. Over 200,000 people in Wales live with diabetes, with over 0.5 million people at risk of developing type 2 diabetes. On those figures alone, we should all be be taking an active interest in this area of health and introducing the changes that we need to see to reduce the burdens of the wider NHS.

I was honoured to sponsor an event earlier this month for Diabetes UK Cymru to highlight the importance of delivering improvements for people with diabetes who have poor mental health and well-being. The event brought together medical professionals from across Wales and provided an opportunity for policy makers to listen to these experts and what we should be doing to address the pressures facing our national health service and helping our constituents who struggle with diabetes.

The event was to launch the campaign 'From Missing to Mainstream', to call for specialist psychological support for those living with diabetes in Wales. The need for psychological services was recognised in the Welsh Government's most recent diabetes delivery plan 2016-2020, with an estimated 41 per cent of people living with diabetes in Wales believed to have poor psychological well-being due to the challenges they face on a daily basis living with diabetes.

The Welsh NHS currently sets itself no measurable targets for how much psychological support is delivered to those who suffer with long-term conditions. The amount of service delivered across the country also varies hugely, and this is something that Welsh Government must address sooner rather than later. For those of you who attended the event, you will remember the poignant contribution from a sufferer of diabetes and the pressure the management of it placed on his mental health.

We should listen to Diabetes Cymru, who are calling for the funding for psychological specialists for diabetes patients. The initial cost of the specialist professionals is minimal and would soon be recouped with the savings from emergency diabetes interventions and emergency medical health support for people at crisis point. Deputy Llywydd, I think it's time for us to put the patients first and ensure we invest properly in diabetes care in Wales, both to address the physical and emotional effects on people suffering with diabetes. As somebody said at that event, people are dying because we are doing nothing. So, I would urge colleagues to support the motion today, and, as I said, let's put the patient first. Diolch, Deputy Llywydd.

I call on the Deputy Minister for Mental Health and Well-being, Lynne Neagle.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Can I thank Darren Millar for bringing forward this motion for debate today? The number of people in Wales who are now living with diabetes, particularly type 2, is something we all need to be concerned about. The rise in diabetes is a worldwide issue. We only have to look at rates in the US, for example, where over 34 million people now have the condition and where, in some states, prevalence has reached 17 per cent, to see where we are heading unless we take action now. If we're to slow the upward trajectory of diabetes, then our focus must be on prevention.

The motion and amendments tabled today do little to recognise the good work that is happening across Wales right now. The amendments do not reflect the work already under way through 'Healthy Weight, Healthy Wales' and our social prescribing model to support preventative measures and healthy lifestyle choices that can help prevent or delay the onset of type 2 diabetes.

Our 'Healthy Weight, Healthy Wales' strategy is a key cross-Government approach to reducing obesity on a population scale. We're investing over £13 million over 2022-24 to support a whole-system approach to tackle it together. This includes action in the early years and for children and families to make healthier choices, enabling settings and environments to be healthier to support these changes. We've also launched two consultations recently to explore how to improve the food and drink environment in Wales, including promoting healthier shopping baskets and restricting the sale of energy drinks to children.

I officially launched the all-Wales diabetes prevention programme recently. It is based on two pilots in the Afan valley and north Ceredigion primary care clusters, and will offer targeted support and intervention to people who are at risk of type 2 diabetes. Trained healthcare support workers will provide help to individuals to understand their level of risk and support them to reduce it through key changes to their diet and level of physical activity. This is a really exciting project that we all hope will slow the number of people who go on to develop type 2 diabetes. 

For those who have been diagnosed with type 2 diabetes in the past six years, the all-Wales diabetes implementation group is working on introducing a remission service across all seven health board areas. Diabetes is largely a condition of self-management and something that people have to learn to live with. We must therefore do all we can to help support people through continued investment in educational programmes, as well as ensuring that the most up-to-date technology is made available to patients where there is clear evidence that this will help them to control and manage their condition.

I agree that the right level of psychological support should be provided to those living with diabetes and, like others, I recently attended a Diabetes Cymru UK event to discuss this. I spoke about the needs-based approach we have set out in the diabetes delivery plan for Wales. We expect people to be supported by their families, friends and by other people with diabetes, but also want people to have the support of fantastic and empathetic care from their clinical teams. It is our expectation that every member of the clinical team, whether in primary care or specialist diabetes services, is able to provide some psychological support as well as resources and structured programmes to help people. I am passionate about the role of psychology. I agree that the appropriate level of support should be accessible to people living with diabetes, but also to those living with a range of other chronic and life-threatening conditions.

There are already referral structures and pathways in place to ensure that those who need extra support can access it when and where they need it. We have included as a key priority in the 'Together for Mental Health' delivery plan the need to improve access to psychological therapies overall, and increased funding in this area. Officials are working with stakeholders on the development of a quality statement for diabetes. This will be published in the autumn. I understand that stakeholders are content with this timetable.

I have made my commitment to early intervention and prevention across my portfolio clear, and although there is a lot more to do, I'm encouraged by the progress and innovation I am seeing to improve the prevention and management of diabetes. I am determined to see that continue, and I hope Members will recognise today that we are serious and committed to supporting the physical and mental health of those living with diabetes in Wales. Diolch.

I call on Joel James to reply to the debate.

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. I'd like to start by thanking everyone who has taken part in today's debate, and also to thank Jayne, really, our colleague, for the invaluable work that she does on the cross-party group for diabetes. We've heard today a great deal about some of the technical aspects of caring for those with diabetes, the secondary health complications that can be caused by diabetes, and we've heard about how, through much better support in terms of managing health and exercise, type 2 diabetes is both a preventable and curable disease. Thus, it is important that we recognise the necessity to reinforce the need for people to take responsibility for their health and lifestyle in order to play their part in reducing their risk of developing type 2 diabetes.

A major element of this is for individuals to be knowledgeable about what the risk factors are for diabetes, and most importantly, how to reduce them. The approach requires commitment from all partners, including local government, schools, industry, employers, the third sector, health boards, and most importantly the public. I would like to take this opportunity to urge the Government to place a requirement on public bodies and businesses to highlight the signs of diabetes and the preventable measures. This is already widely done for cancer and can be so easily achieved for diabetes.

Focusing on the preventability of type 2 diabetes, we have to be aware that there are many reasons people end up with a poor lifestyle, making bad food choices and not getting sufficient exercise. This comes from a variety of sources, with no one single identifiable cause. I would argue that the pathway to developing type 2 diabetes is likely to be very different across the spectrum of those who suffer it. For instance, for some, it might be mental health issues that have led to a sedentary lifestyle; for others, it could be a physical injury that has led to difficulty exercising. But, unfortunately, another prominent cause is poverty, and there is a prevalence of choosing highly calorific foods with low nutritional value because they are cheap.

I recognise there is unlikely to be a silver bullet that prevents type 2 diabetes, but I do believe that we need to take every opportunity to educate people regarding eating habits and allow them to develop greater knowledge and understanding of the nutritional aspects of the foods they eat. It is controversial that the hospitality industry should be made to provide nutritional information for every meal or snack that they provide—

Joel, will you take an intervention from Altaf Hussain?

Oh, I'm sorry, Altaf, yes, of course.

Thank you very much. We have the health Minister also here. It would be good to have this interaction, really. I worked on it very much, on the preventative aspect of diabetes type 2, and in that period of time, when the patient is seen by the GP and when he's referred to the dietician for the first time, we waste roughly about two or three months. And it is that time, if that is taken up by the health board, by the primary health, that you will be able to prevent diabetes in those patients, and I have worked on it. If the Minister wants, I would be grateful to discuss it further with you.

Thank you, Altaf, and thank you for that intervention and, as has already been discussed, one of the issues is the lack of diagnosis of type 2 diabetes and the unfamiliarity of the symptoms, so it's crucial to get them covered as well.

So, I have two final points I wish to make. The first is that diabetes, both type 1 and type 2, doesn't just affect the individual; it affects those families and friends who live with and support those who suffer from diabetes. Because not only do they have to watch their loved ones struggle with managing the condition, they have to live with the consequences as well, and there are many hidden aspects, as we have heard, of diabetes that rarely, if ever, come to the surface, for instance, the constant worry of low blood sugar, which is particularly prevalent at night-time or when exercising, when, unfortunately, just one mistake and not eating enough or doing too much exercise or dosing with a bit too much insulin can cause people to slip into a coma.

And lastly I want to use this opportunity today to give a huge offering of thanks to all those who work in hospitals, schools, charities and elsewhere, who give up so much time to help and to support those affected by diabetes. They are truly life savers. And, with that in mind, I would like to urge everyone to support this motion. Thank you.

The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes.

I can see Lynne putting her hand up. Okay.

I will defer voting on the motion until voting time. 

Item 9 today is the second Welsh Conservative debate on the 2023 Eurovision Song Contest, and I call on Tom Giffard to move the motion.

Diolch yn fawr iawn i chi, Dirprwy Lywydd, and I'd like to formally move the debate tabled in the name of my colleague Darren Millar, who's had a lot of praise today. Can I begin the debate by placing on record my sadness and deep regret, and that of my group, that the Eurovision Song Contest cannot be held in Ukraine? As ever, our thoughts are with all those impacted by Russia's invasion of the country. So, in that context, I think it's important that we reflect on why the UK's hosting Eurovision and resolve to make the contest, wherever in the UK it ends up being hosted, look and feel as Ukrainian as possible. And I hope that one day in the very near future we'll see Europe's favourite competition return to Ukraine once again.

So, with that in mind, the United Kingdom has been presented with an opportunity to host next year's Eurovision Song Contest, and as Welsh Conservatives, the true party of Wales, we feel strongly that, as the land of song, Wales is the obvious home for the 2023 song contest. Eurovision being hosted in Wales will add to the list of major events taking place in Wales. Things like the recent concerts from Ed Sheeran, Stereophonics, Tom Jones and the WWE event in September as well. These events have brought people from across the United Kingdom and indeed the world, not only leaving an impression of Wales on those who attend and travel here physically, but those who watch the event on their tv screens as well. And with hundreds of millions of people watching Eurovision on tv each year, what a perfect opportunity to show off our great nation to the world. And we want to be ambitious too.

Whilst the Eurovision Song Contest has traditionally been hosted in arenas, and Wales has great arenas in abundance, and it would be remiss of me not to mention the fantastic new Swansea Arena in my region, we know the public in Wales and across the United Kingdom could easily sell out the Principality Stadium, such is their enthusiasm and love for the event. I know that we could sell 70,000 tickets for that event, and I think I know from this Chamber who the first 60 tickets would be sold to. So, while there are obvious transport issues that need to be addressed, which is something we’ve raised in the past, today isn’t a day to sit back and make party political arguments back and forth. Instead, it’s a day to celebrate the Eurovision Song Contest and say that this Senedd stands united and clear in one aim, and that’s doing all that we can, and resolving for us all to work together, to deliver a shared ambition, hosting the Eurovision Song Contest here in Wales, and I look forward to hearing contributions from colleagues.

I have selected the amendment to the motion, and I call on Heledd Fychan to move amendment 1, tabled in the name of Siân Gwenllian. Heledd.

Thank you, Llywydd, and I thank the Conservatives for bringing this debate forward today and state our support for it. I would also like to echo the comments of Tom Giffard in saying that we agree, that we also regret that this competition cannot be held in Ukraine because of the illegal ongoing attacks by Russia. We don’t want to take advantage of the fact that Ukraine is going through such an appalling time, and we welcome the fact that 2023 should be a celebration of Ukraine, and that should be the case wherever the competition is held. I should also declare that I'm one of those who is not going to apologise for the fact that I'm a big fan of Eurovision. I’m sorry, but I watch annually with the family, like many people in Wales, and I also voted for Ukraine this year.

But it is a golden opportunity for us here in Wales, and I think the point is an important one: yes, we should be campaigning for Eurovision to come here to Wales. After all, it’s been in the UK eight times previously, seven times in England and once in Scotland, so it’s about time that Wales had the opportunity to host and the international benefits of that. As Tom Giffard said, we have a wealth of music here in Wales to celebrate, and I do believe that we could be exhibiting everything that we’re famous for internationally. It’s a golden opportunity in that regard. Also, if you consider that we will have an excellent opportunity internationally on the international stage with the men’s football team at the world cup, well, why not then celebrate culture in a very different way here in Wales too?

I am going to challenge the Conservatives, however. The 'true party of Wales'? Well, support, therefore, our amendment that Wales should take part in Eurovision as a nation in its own right, because that’s what our amendment states, to ensure that Wales—. Given that we have such huge talent, as has been listed, why shouldn’t we compete too? Why haven’t we heard the Welsh language ever in Eurovision? That’s one of the things that I enjoy most about Eurovision, hearing all of the different languages, seeing all of the different cultures reflected, and I think it’s about time Wales had that opportunity too.

So, I would ask everybody here: why can't we—[Interruption.] I’d be more than happy to take an intervention, Andrew, particularly if you’ll sing it.

I’ve read on the order paper your amendment, but I don’t think, under the rules of the competition, we could enter it, just like the Basque Country couldn’t enter, and Spain is the representative of the Spanish entry to the competition. So, the rules do not permit that amendment to actually be enacted.

Well, it was possible with Junior Eurovision, and such rules can be changed, because why shouldn’t we celebrate the diversity? There is a call to begin looking at that, because we should be able to compete, and there are ways and means of ensuring that that is possible. If it’s possible with Junior Eurovision, it’s possible to change the rules for us to be at Eurovision too, and I am confident that Wales could win.

So, I’m very pleased to support this, and I would encourage everyone to unite on our amendment. There would be so many economic benefits for us to celebrate Wales internationally through this opportunity, and I very much hope that we can all unite on something that would be very positive for Wales and the Welsh language too, because we may see the Welsh language in Eurovision. So, why not go for it? Thank you.

Just like many people in this Chamber, I watch the Eurovision Song Contest every year and I have seriously got tired of seeing 'nul points', but it was a delight for me to see Ukraine win this year, and for Great Britain to do incredibly well. Alongside 161 million viewers, I was hooked, and I must say, I was very fortunate to have a head of comms in my team who is a walking, talking Encyclopaedia Britannica of everything Eurovision. So, I am hoping that my contribution today will be a tribute to him and also all Eurovision Song Contest fans out there.

It's a fact that the Eurovision Song Contest is the longest running annual tv music competition. First held in 1956 with only seven nations competing, the contest has substantially grown. The collapse of the former Soviet Union in the 1990s has led to a certain increase in numbers, with many former eastern bloc European countries vying to compete, and now the contest even encompasses Australia. From Dana to Dana International, this cultural festival, with occasional strange song lyrics, bizarre performances and tactical voting, has become a beacon promoting equality, diversity and harmony across Europe and elsewhere, a true, what some may say, brotherhood of man.

Ukraine's victory in this year's contest was rightly seen as a repudiation of Russia's aggression, and an attempt to replace the brave and inspirational President Zelenskyy with Putin's puppet on a string. Events in the east mean that next year's Eurovision is unlikely to be held in Kyiv, a departure from the norm that can at best be described as an aberration. The BBC is now in talks with the European Broadcasting Union to potentially host the contest, something the UK has done a record eight times previously. Should they prove successful, the question arises: where should the venue be? Back comes the answer: wherever there's space, man.

I believe the perfect venue is the Principality Stadium, which can hold 74,500 people. The stadium has a proven track record, as my colleague Tom Giffard mentioned, of successfully holding major music events, as we saw earlier with the Ed Sheeran concert, Tom Jones and also the Stereophonics being held there. Eurovision would also provide an opportunity to market and publicise the attractions of Wales as a tourist destination to an international audience of millions. From the rock bottom of our stunning mountains to the beautiful sandy shores of our coastlines, holding this unique event has the potential to deliver huge long-term benefits for our economy by raising our profile as a nation.

I call upon the Welsh Government to not waste time making up your mind and bring the world's greatest song contest to the land of song. Let's ensure that we are flying the flag for Wales. Support our motion and do all you can to promote Cardiff and Wales as the perfect host for the Eurovision Song Contest. If you do, I'll be the first one to sing and say, 'Congratulations'.

It's a pleasure to take part in this debate this afternoon. My knowledge isn't as good on Eurovision as yours, Natasha, but what I will say is that I wasn't originally down to speak on this, but I'm glad that I finally made my mind up to contribute today.

Eurovision, for those who follow it, evokes a sense of celebration, culture, competition, creativity, camaraderie, all combined into a single annual event. The secret to Eurovision's cross-border mass appeal lies in a curious mixture of camp irony and mild controversy. Other than sporting events, the Eurovision Song Contest is one of the most watched annual international television events in the world, drawing in 600 million viewers each year. Following conversations by the European Broadcasting Union in the 1950s to connect countries within the union during the period after world war two, the contest has been televised every year since its premiere in 1956. 

For now, NATO countries are not directly at war with Russia, but we are in a wartime period, which we must do all we can to support. Against this backdrop, a kindly reminder of how important events such as Eurovision can be has surely been felt. The UK entry into the contest this year resulted in second place, closely behind Ukraine. With many security concerns, ongoing conversations around the logistics of the contest being held in Ukraine have taken place. Understandably, it's been noted that it's unlikely to be safe enough for it to take place in Kyiv or Lviv, or indeed any other Ukrainian city, and I would like to take this opportunity to say that Wales stands ready to facilitate Ukraine as a host nation in this instance. 

Despite the ongoing cost-of-living crisis, the kindness and willingness of the people of Wales has been unwavering towards the people of Ukraine. We've seen the fantastic work of Urdd Gobaith Cymru, who have housed and supported refugees at a handful of their locations across the country. Therefore, while our armed forces remain absent from the battlefields of Donbas, we must look at other ways in which we can carry the Ukrainian message of hope. A Welsh-organised Eurovision could see profits donated to charity, and free tickets distributed to refugees here in Wales. There's a real opportunity that 2023 could mark the year of renewed friendship.

Over the past few months, Ukraine has shown its true determination and grit to be a beacon of freedom and democracy here in Europe. Regardless of where and when the next Eurovision is held, this is another opportunity for us to join in solidarity with its people and send a hard, strong message to Russia. Russia's war campaign on European soil will not go unpunished. Putin and his military generals will answer for the war crimes that they have committed, and Wales and the United Kingdom will stand unwaveringly with their Ukrainian allies until every last tank, soldier, fighter jet and naval ship has left Ukraine for good. I'll finish by quoting Konrad Adenauer, when he said that

'When the world seems large and complex, we need to remember that great world ideals all begin in some home neighborhood.'

The war in Ukraine has truly shown that. Thank you. 

I'm very pleased to be able to briefly participate in this debate. I wasn’t down to speak. I would like to actually agree with the opening sentiments of the Members opposite, who started this discussion and this motion today. I absolutely applaud the fact that we have a consensus, I believe—a majority across this Chamber today—in this regard. I think that it’s an absolutely fantastic suggestion that we would look to encourage the UK to be able to participate in this Eurovision Song Contest as we move forward.

In regard to Wales as the land of song, quite frankly, it would be fitting for us at this time to be able to do so, and I would also encourage the Welsh Government to work with the BBC and others to celebrate the fantastic achievements, not only in Wales but also in regard to the tragic and awful circumstances that Ukraine is going through at this moment in time. It is a show of solidarity, and it would be a demonstration of our support. So, I welcome very much this debate. Diolch yn fawr i chi i gyd. Thank you, Llywydd.

The Deputy Minister for arts and sport to contribute now—Dawn Bowden.

Diolch, Llywydd. Can I thank the Welsh Conservatives for bringing forward this debate? What I would start by saying is that we have a full range of cultural, sporting and business events that are a vital part of the visitor economy. By supporting events across Wales, the Welsh Government, through Event Wales, helps drive positive economic impact while showcasing our world-class venues, spotlighting our cities, towns and communities, and highlighting our wonderful landscapes.

Because of the vital role of events in Wales, in order to combat the worst effects of the pandemic, the Welsh Government did provide further support of £24 million to more than 200 sporting, cultural and business events, and technical suppliers, via the cultural recovery fund, and continued to provide leadership, advice and guidance to the industry during this challenging time. Currently working under the auspices of a major events strategy for Wales 2010-20—which was launched in 2010, obviously—we’re now about to launch a renewed and refreshed events strategy for Wales. This seeks to capitalise on the new level of collaboration and consultation that the Welsh Government has developed with the industry during the pandemic. We are going to reassess Wales’s reputation as an event nation on the world stage, where events support the well-being of its people, place and the planet. It identifies clear ambitions to ensure an all-Wales approach, maximising existing assets and supporting a geographical and seasonal spread of indigenous and international events across sports, business and cultural sectors across the whole of Wales.

We are already supporting a wide range of events. The most recent examples include the Welsh language festival Tafwyl; In It Together in Neath Port Talbot; the Gottwood festival in Ynys Môn; the Merthyr Rising; and the Out & Wild festival in Pembrokeshire. We are looking forward to the World Heart Congress; and England versus South Africa T20 in Cardiff, shortly; the Love Trails festival; the Para Sport festival in Swansea; and WWE, as has already been mentioned, will be coming to Wales in September. We are well versed in successfully hosting international events—WOMEX, NATO, the Ashes test, a Ryder Cup and a Champions League final, just to name a few.

We remain alert to new and exciting event hosting opportunities. For example, we are of course part of the UK and Ireland bid for the 2028 Euros. We are always open to discussions about bringing exciting major events to Wales. These opportunities can, as has happened with Eurovision, emerge unexpectedly, and it's vital that we respond to these appropriately and make a full assessment of the likely costs and benefits before progress with any potential involvement. Such an assessment involves full engagement with partners and a full consideration of the detailed technical specification issued by the event organisers.

The Eurovision Song Contest, as others have already pointed out, represents one of the world's most high profile event hosting opportunities, and provides the host nation, city and venue with a chance to build significantly on its reputation and secure a sizeable and positive economic impact. As winners of the 2022 contest, Ukraine won the right to host the 2023 edition, and whilst the European Broadcasting Union, who hold the rights to the competition, have now indicated that they do not think it will be possible to host a safe and secure event in the country next year, we note that Ukraine remain committed to hosting the event, and have suggested that now is not the right time to start discussions with cities in the UK, until they have held further discussions with the EBU. The UK Government has also indicated that Ukraine should be given the opportunity to host the event if they can. So, no decision has yet been taken on whether the UK will host, but in the event that we do agree to host, the BBC will then run a selection process for the host city, and it is at that point that input will be sought.

Can I say, Llywydd, that we reiterate our unequivocal solidarity with the Ukrainian people in the face of the Russian invasion of their country? We fully respect Ukraine's continued ambition to host the Eurovision Song Contest. Until the position has been fully resolved, we will not proactively pursue a bid for the event. Should, however, Ukraine be unable to host the event, we recognise that, as runners-up in the 2022 contest, the UK represents the alternative option for the EBU.

We recognise that Wales's successful track record in hosting high-profile events in Cardiff at the Principality Stadium, which we understand would be the only venue in Wales capable of meeting the specifications for the event, places it in contention for providing a home for the 2023 edition of Eurovision, if it cannot be held in Ukraine. Both Cardiff Council and the stadium have indicated their interest in staging the event, and if the event cannot be held in Ukraine, we would hold further discussions with both, and the BBC, in terms of the detailed specification and the potential costs, which we understand are likely to be multimillion. We would also be looking at the benefits and the potential contributions from those partners, the UK Government, and of course international partners.

Finally, if I can address the Plaid amendment. Should we be successful for any bid for this great event, we would fully honour the EBU's commitment to ensure that the 2023 event reflects Ukraine's win this year, and any entry would be a UK entry, because Eurovision is a competition held amongst broadcasting networks, and entries are from the main public service broadcasters of each country, and for the UK this is the BBC. The BBC would therefore need to withdraw from being the UK's Eurovision broadcaster before Wales could be allowed to compete in its own right. A devolved Government does not mean separate participation.

In summary, Llywydd, what I would say is that we should await the final decision on which nation will be hosting the Eurovision Song Contest, and if that turns out to be the UK then we will fully participate in the process of seeking to host the event.

Tom Giffard now to reply to the debate. 

Diolch. [Interruption.] I won't be singing, I'm afraid. Can I thank Members, first of all, from across the Chamber for their contributions in the Welsh Conservative debate today? I'm delighted to be closing this debate as well as opening. As Members who take a keen interest in Eurovision will know, it's normally only the winner that gets to perform twice, so read into that what you will.

I think the general consensus from the debate is that all of us across the Chamber, from whatever party or whatever part of the country we represent, are united in the idea of bringing the Eurovision Song Contest here to Wales. Can I just rattle through some of the contributions from Members? I’ll come back to the Plaid amendment at the end, but Heledd Fychan started by saying, 'Mae’n hen bryd'—it’s about time that Wales hosted the Eurovision. Absolutely right. We heard from a number of contributors about the role that Ukraine would play, and I’m grateful as well to the Deputy Minister for pointing out Ukraine’s continued ambition to want to host Eurovision if that is possible, but obviously, the EBU has made that decision that the UK should step in if that is not possible, and we feel very strongly that Wales and Cardiff should be that place where that is hosted.

Gareth Davies talked about how this has been a welcoming country to Ukrainians that have fled here, and if it is not possible to host it in their home, we should really be hosting it in Wales, which has now become obviously a temporary home for a number of Ukrainians as well.

Dawn Bowden, the Minister, at the end there talked about the cultural support over the pandemic, but I didn’t quite hear her full support for the ability to host Eurovision. I understand there is a cost-benefit analysis to be done, but I wish that the Deputy Minister would show 'Ooh Aah...Just a Little Bit’ more ambition. [Laughter.]

Can I just touch briefly on the Plaid Cymru—[Laughter.] I’ll move on. Can I just touch briefly on the contribution from Heledd Fychan and the Plaid Cymru amendment? And as we heard, I understand Plaid Cymru’s continued ambition to see Wales compete as an independent nation at the Eurovision—I understand that—but as we heard from the Deputy Minister and from Andrew R.T. Davies, that simply isn’t possible. And as the Deputy Minister said, the BBC would have to withdraw as a host broadcaster for the event. Unfortunately, Plaid Cymru are using this debate to drive their usual wedge of separatism between what they think and what the Welsh public really feel.

Would you be happy to take an intervention?

Absolutely.

I didn't catch your description of the Welsh football team as 'separatism'.

Well, we’ve got a wonderful debate coming up next—I’m sure you’ll stay behind—on Welsh football. But Plaid Cymru’s short-sighted suggestion may be one of the Conchita Wurst suggestions I’ve heard in this Chamber. No, that one didn’t land. Okay. [Laughter.]

I just wanted to finish by saying I saw little bit of nonsense on social media earlier today asking why we were using some time today to debate this idea, that we should be talking about bigger issues that are facing Wales, and discussing it was a waste of time. And for all the reasons we’ve heard today from across the Chamber, whether that be that huge economic impact, an unparalleled opportunity to bring people into stadiums in Wales, put eyeballs onto our country, or even just growing our national identity and who we are as a people, establishing that Senedd-wide consensus that the Welsh Government should work with the BBC and the EBU to bring a major event like Eurovision to Wales isn’t a waste of anybody’s time. So, I ask all Members from across the Chamber to back our motion today. Thank you.

The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes, there is objection. Therefore, we'll defer voting on this item until voting time. 

We've now reached voting time. We'll take a short break to prepare for the vote.

That brings us to voting time. The first vote is on item 8, the Welsh Conservatives' debate on diabetes. I call for a vote on the motion tabled in the name of Darren Millar. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 14, 10 abstentions, 26 against. And therefore the motion is not agreed. 

We'll move now to amendment 1. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be deselected. I call for a vote on amendment 1, therefore, tabled in the name of Lesley Griffiths. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 26, 14 abstentions, 10 against. And therefore amendment 1 is agreed. 

Amendment 2 is therefore deselected.

We'll move now to amendment 3—amendment 3—tabled in the name of Siân Gwenllian. Open the vote. [Inaudible.]—of the vote is that there were 25 in favour, no abstentions and 25 against. And therefore I exercise my casting vote against the amendment. And therefore the final result is that there were 25 in favour, no abstentions and 26 against. And therefore the amendment is not agreed.

Amendment 4 is next, tabled in the name of Siân Gwenllian. Open the vote. The result of the vote, therefore, is that there were 25 in favour, no abstentions and 25 against. Therefore, I exercise my casting vote against amendment 4. So, the result of the vote is that there were 25 in favour, no abstentions and 26 against, and therefore amendment 4 is not agreed.

I now call for a vote on the motion as amended by amendment 1.

So, open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 26, 14 abstentions and 10 against. Therefore, the motion as amended is agreed.

The next vote is on the Welsh Conservatives debate on the 2023 Eurovision Song Contest. I call for a vote on the motion, tabled in the name of Darren Millar. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 40, 10 abstentions, none against. Therefore, the motion is agreed.

That concludes voting time.

We will move on now to an important short debate on football.

I'll call the Member to introduce his debate now, once some Members have left quietly.

Okay, the short debate, therefore, and I call on Jack Sargeant to move the motion. Jack Sargeant.

Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. I'm pleased to be able to debate the matter this afternoon—our Cymru: creating a leading football nation. And if I may, Llywydd, give a minute of my own time to Samuel Kurtz, Mike Hedges, Llyr Gruffydd and Tom Giffard.

I'm sure you will agree with me, Llywydd, that I can't remember a more exciting time for Welsh football. The men's national team have played twice in consecutive European championships and have qualified for the world cup for the first time since 1958, and, of course, we all here in this Senedd wish them every success in the future competition. But it's not just the men's team who've had success; the women's national team is creating a real buzz with record attendances and striking on-field performances. Legends of the Welsh game, like Gareth Bale and Jess Fishlock, are inspiring the next generation of players.

The Football Association of Wales have an ambitious plan, an ambitious vision for Cymru to become a leading football nation at a local, a national and an international level. Now, for someone who is really passionate about football and the benefits it can bring to all those involved, this is a pretty exciting ambition. It recognises that Welsh football is far more than just the national teams. I say that, Deputy Presiding Officer, as a proud club ambassador, for the record, of the Welsh league's finest team, Connah's Quay Nomads Football Club. Now, like many of you, you will be familiar, I'm sure, with the grass-roots game in Wales, and young people, our future generations, our future footballers play football in Wales every single weekend, throughout the year, in huge numbers. I have fond memories myself of growing up playing for Connah's Quay Tigers; I also have some unfond memories of my best friend missing penalties in Welsh cup finals for Connah's Quay Tigers. But back then, facilities weren't great, and it's important to recognise that facilities are improving, but this journey does need to continue if the FAW, and if all of us as football fans, are to meet their ambition.

Significant investment in facilities has come from the Welsh Government and the Welsh Government's twenty-first century schools programme, and through the FAW and through Sport Wales. However, we must do more to support our clubs to improve their facilities directly. And an example of this is in my own constituency—Buckley Town Football Club. Now, that's a club that struggles with drainage, and we do need an all-weather pitch. There has to be some direct support to clubs to achieve their ambitions themselves, not just support to schools and investment into schools. Now, as I said, each week in Wales, thousands of young people miss out on games, and they miss out on games because the pitch is called off, the game is called off—the pitch is off because of the weather. It's often waterlogged. It rains a lot in Wales—we know that, don't we? And I would like from the Minister, in her response today, a commitment and a comment about how we can achieve this direct support for clubs.

Deputy Presiding Officer, the Welsh league pyramid is a great way of engaging people in the Welsh game, and both our women's and men's leagues are improving dramatically; I've seen it myself as an ambassador and as a fan. And the clubs engage continuously with young people, and there are countless numbers of young people right across our country who they engage with. And I think if we want this journey to continue, the games have to be accessible, and that means being televised or live on our radios. And I shared my own ambition in the Siambr in this respect: for the women's and men's leagues to be broadcast live, with more games, more frequently, free to view, free to listen in both of our national languages. And this is essential, and it's essential if we are going to build on the increasing popularity of the women's game and the women's and men's leagues. And if we are to really and truly inspire the next generation of world-class players, this must happen.

But we know football is not just about the participants; the fans are also key. Cymru's famous red wall. And if I turn away from football a second, many of you in this Chamber now will know that I'm a particular keen campaigner on mental health issues and support, and in particular how we can reach people who don't come forward for that support. And I think football plays a particular role in this. It can help us reach people. Before the coronavirus pandemic, I worked with Wales's big five professional clubs—Cardiff City, Swansea City, Newport County, Wrexham and, of course, Connah's Quay Nomads—and we used the power of football to highlight that 84 men die a week from suicide and the support that can be offered through our football family. And I should say I pay particular tribute—and I can see Jayne Bryant on the screen there—I do want to pay particular tribute here for the ongoing support of Newport County, who support fans on a daily basis who are struggling.

Deputy Presiding Officer, football exists in Wales because of the work of an army of fans, an army of grass-roots volunteers. We should all be incredibly grateful to those who give up their free time to support the game we all love and our country, our nation, loves. Now, I'm sure, as Members of the Senedd and football fans in general, you will all agree with me that there has been a real positive change in leadership, attitude and direction in the FAW, and tribute must be paid because this has been driven by the new chief executive, Noel Mooney. But if we are to progress this even further and take a world lead in football governance, steps now need to be taken to encourage diversity within the leadership structure here in Wales and within the game here in Wales. What does this mean? Well, it means more women and more people from minority backgrounds in strategic positions at the highest level of the FAW. This can't be a token effort, friends. We need real empowerment of people from a wide range of backgrounds with a shared love and knowledge of the beautiful game. They need to be involved at the highest level. They need to have their voices heard.

Deputy Presiding Officer, as Noel Mooney said to the men's national team following their world cup qualification, 'We are all in this together.' So, we should note our thanks to every individual who makes football happen across Wales—those who play it, those who watch it, those who support it, those who facilitate it. Because it's true, isn't it, that when we are together we are stronger. And if it is going to take all of us—all of us in this Chamber, all of our football society, our society across Wales in general—it's going to take us all to come together, to be stronger together and to make a lasting legacy for Cymru and truly make Wales, truly make Cymru, a leading football nation across the globe. Diolch yn fawr. 

I'm grateful to the Member for Alyn and Deeside for giving me a minute of his time. In making Wales a leading footballing nation, I'd like to pay tribute to the coaches, who often give up their time free of charge. And one of those coaches who got me involved with football back in the day, when I was a youngster, was Matthew 'Minty' Lamb, a former FAW community coach of the year. I was grateful to him for inviting me along to his prize-giving evening, because he has now, for the last 10 years, led Fishguard ladies, from junior girls all the way through to the senior ladies' team, giving his time, bringing in the community to support ladies' football in a part of the world that didn't traditionally have it. And I think people like Matthew Lamb, who give up their time freely to support a cause that they so very much believe in, are absolutely critical to making Wales a leading footballing nation. And I'd like to take this opportunity to pay tribute to the Matthew Lambs that are there in every club across Wales, in every corner, making sure that the people of Wales are playing football, getting active, and making sure that there are the Gareth Bales and Fishlocks of the future. Diolch. 

Can I thank Jack Sargeant for giving me a minute in this debate? I'm very pleased to see Wales qualify for the world cup finals, but footballers start playing when they're in primary school, usually in their school and the local club. Without those teachers who freely give their time and those who coach and run junior football teams, there would not be a successful national side. Every weekend throughout Wales, there are junior football matches being played. Players have to be taken to fixtures, someone has to referee these fixtures, and someone has to act as trainer in case of injury. Many will stop playing when they reach 16 or 18, some will progress to the local leagues, and very few to professional clubs and even fewer to playing for Wales. All the players start this journey in the same place. I have previously asked for more 3G and 4G pitches to make playing football in wet weather possible. Too often, during winter, several weeks of football is lost due to pitches being unplayable. I end with a big 'thank you' to those who make junior football happen, so that the next Gareth Bale and Joe Rodon get the chance to start their journey to become international footballers. 

Thank you for the opportunity to contribute to this debate. I just wanted to reflect a little on what Welsh football and Welsh football teams—not just a team, but teams—represent, and what the red wall has embraced. It is more than just football. This phenomenon is a symbol of contemporary Wales, a confident Wales, a successful Wales, and of an inclusive Wales, too, in all its diversity. Gareth Bale said, 'All I need is the dragon on my chest', and what does that dragon in the football context now represent? Well, it represents Wales in all of its diversity—whatever language you speak, whatever the colour of your skin, whatever you feel you are. And not only do we celebrate that the Wales football team has qualified for Qatar, but what the football team and football in Wales more generally represent are going to Qatar, and that is an important message and a message I hope that the whole world will hear when the time comes for us to go to Qatar in November. 

Thank you, Jack Sargeant, for tabling this debate today. When I saw the name of the debate, 'creating a leading football nation', I knew I wanted to speak on it because it made me think, 'Well, what does make up a nation?' And Wales, I think, is a nation of communities and, in my opinion, nothing binds a community together quite like a local football club. As I'm sure Mike Hedges will attest, nothing binds the city of Swansea together quite like the support for the Swans—

The super Swans. [Laughter.]

But, also, it teaches us important lessons and qualities for our lives, both for young people and for us older ones who perhaps need to be reminded sometimes—lessons like a team ethic, one for all, the team over individuals, and patience, sticking with the team through thick and thin, respect for the rules, discipline, and acceptance as well. And Altaf Hussain was just telling me about his seven-year-old granddaughter who is a keen footballer as well, which is fantastic to hear. 

So, I hope, when we look at Qatar and the 11 that take to the pitch when the world cup begins, that it is a reflection not just on the 11 who qualified and the 11 who took us there, but the whole network, the whole football support network that has got us there in the first place—those coaches, those volunteers, those referees have all played their part just as much as the 11 on that pitch, and I hope that that is reflected. Thank you. 

I call on the Deputy Minister for Arts and Sport to reply to the debate—Dawn Bowden.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Can I thank Jack Sargeant for introducing this afternoon's short debate on a topic that I know Jack and many others know is very close to my heart too? Although it's been a few weeks since the world cup play-off final against Ukraine, it still doesn't feel quite real, does it? The euphoria around that is still with us, but the achievement of the Cymru men's senior team in reaching the finals of a FIFA World Cup for the first time in 64 years is just simply awesome, an accomplishment that has been considered an impossible dream for so long. And there have been so many near misses along the way of that painful journey since 1958, but, finally, we can put that particular heartache to rest. It's a fitting testament to the determination, the perseverance and the belief of Rob Page's players and staff. The passion, the commitment, the sportsmanship shown by the team both on and, equally important, as Llyr Gruffydd said, off the pitch has rightly been praised across the sporting world and inspired the nation. When, as a small nation, Wales does well on the sporting stage, the whole nation glows, and we can certainly feel the positive energy building from this exciting opportunity that lies ahead.

Wales reaching the world cup finals has already given a boost to the whole country, and I'm sure it will open the door for many opportunities. And to that end, we are working with the FAW and other stakeholders to consider how to maximise the opportunities that will come to Wales with participation on this international stage. Football, especially a prestigious global tournament such as the world cup, is an opportunity to reach a global audience and to tell the world about Wales, who we are and what we do. I'm certain that this success will inspire many people, boys and girls, young and old, to participate in a sport and will undoubtedly leave a very strong and positive legacy.

We should also remember, as Jack Sargeant pointed out, that the Cymru women's senior team is still well placed to qualify for the women's world cup next year as well, a reflection of how much positive progress has been made in recent years in the women's game. Like many of us, I'm looking forward to the remaining matches in their qualifying campaign in September and would like to take this opportunity to wish them all the very best too.

Now, these successes don't happen overnight, of course, and it starts by getting it right at grass roots and making sure that our young athletes have the opportunity to develop their skills and have the facilities to play. Our programme for government recognises that sport is of vital importance to both the Welsh economy and to national life. It commits the Welsh Government to harness the creativity and sporting ability of the people in Wales and ensure that the industry has the support it needs to maintain its proper place on the world stage. And that is why the Welsh Government is investing £24 million over the next three years in sporting facilities, so that sportspeople of all ages and abilities can enjoy their chosen sport and learn new skills. I'm particularly pleased that the FAW has also committed to using its world cup qualification dividend to support and develop grass-roots facilities, and I would certainly encourage Buckley Town and any club wanting to improve their facilities to get in touch with the FAW and Sport Wales to discuss the options open to them.

I also agree with Jack's point that there's more room for football clubs to play a role as centres for the community and to encourage and inspire people to focus on their health and well-being, and I applaud the work that Jack has done in this area. I'm also pleased that the FAW is already thinking along these lines too. Of course, I have to mention my own team, Merthyr Town, in this context, and the club is very much community orientated and fan owned and has a track record of raising and supporting issues around mental health, from the We Wear The Same Shirt campaign with Time to Change and the FAW back in 2015 to the most recent Mind Cymru's Terrace Talk campaign. I was also pleased to learn that Trefelin Boys and Girls Club in Cymru south league appointed a dedicated mental health officer earlier this year, working alongside a local charity to support their players and staff whenever needed.

Turning now to broadcasting of matches, as you know, this isn't a devolved area, so there is a limit to what the Welsh Government can do here. So, although there is good news in the short term, and partnership work with S4C has been very positive, the UK Government needs to be doing much more to make sure that the 'crown jewels' sporting list is still relevant to all countries in the UK.

Dirprwy Lywydd, it's not just about matters on the pitch that we can demonstrate our strength as a nation. We can also show leadership, and it is absolutely right that this includes diversity at all levels of the game. That leadership, soft power or public diplomacy, is also a lever for international engagement; it raises Wales's profile and enables us to tell our story on a world stage. This is particularly relevant in this world cup, as I know many Members and fans do have concerns about the host country, Qatar. As such, I believe we've got a moral responsibility to engage with countries that do not always share our values, whether that is on human rights, LGBTQ+ rights, workers' rights, or political and religious freedoms. Engaging with countries is an opportunity to develop a platform for further discussion, to raise awareness and to influence.

In conclusion, Dirprwy Lywydd, I'm grateful to Members for their contributions and the unity in this Senedd behind Cymru. It's wonderful to see us as a nation expand our reach on the world stage even further through the power of sport, and I can't wait for the world cup finals later this year. I'm sure all Members will join me in wishing the players, staff and the fans all the very, very best of luck in Qatar. 

Thank you, all. That brings today's proceedings to a close.