Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru

Content to note, Chair.

I just turned the telephone off.

So, we'll note the papers.

And we'll move on to item 3, and we'll welcome Michelle Morris here as our preferred candidate for the Public Services Ombudsman for Wales, having been through the process, and this is the next stage of the process that we're following. So, I'd like Michelle just to state her name for the record, if you wouldn't mind. 

Yes. Michelle Morris. Prynhawn da.

Prynhawn da. So, what we will do this afternoon is run through some questions and get to know Michelle a little bit better. Obviously, I've met Michelle throughout the process and the interview that we had, and it's nice to see you again, and congratulations on getting this far in the process. So, my initial question would be: what were your main reasons for applying for this role?

Okay, thank you. Well, it's a unique post, and it's a really interesting post, and a hugely important one in the Welsh public sector. I think, when I saw this advertised, I felt it was a really great opportunity for me to take my experience from working in local government over many years now and at a senior level into a role that was across Wales and across the wider public sector. So, I think it's a role in which there's an opportunity to be really influential, working with other public bodies and Members of the Senedd to look at how we can proactively learn and improve public services through the process that the ombudsman's office manages. So, a great, great opportunity for me.

I think that—. I felt that it aligned very well with my personal values in terms of why I'm in public service, why I've stayed here for so long and spent my career here. I genuinely believe in the value of public services and the importance of them to our communities. We know that we've got good public services here in Wales, but they're large, complex organisations, they're diverse organisations, and they're under incredible pressure, more so now than ever, and things do go wrong in those situations. And when they go wrong, what's important is there's a good mechanism in place for everyone to have a voice, to seek redress, an independent view as to trying to put those things right and improve things, going forward, to make sure those things don't happen again. So, I firmly believe that this role has got a hugely important role to play within the Welsh public services, and it's a role that I find very exciting. That's why I put my name forward for it. 

Diolch yn fawr, Michelle. I'll move on to Mike; I think Mike has got some questions. Can we unmute Mike? There we are.

I unmuted myself then, so it got a bit confusing. Well, Michelle, as you know, we've met previously when you held a post down in Swansea. The question I've got for you is: you're managing director of Blaenau Gwent, and you cannot be managing director or chief executive of any local authority in Wales without coming into contact with the ombudsman and having ombudsman inquiries—some valid, some invalid—taking place against what you're doing. From your role on being the other side of being inspected and moving to the side of being the inspector, what do you bring from your experience of being a chief executive/managing director of a local authority to the other side of taking part in the investigations?

Okay, thank you. So, what I bring from my role, my current role and the roles I've held in previous organisations, I suppose, is that senior leadership experience—so, understanding what it means to hold a senior leadership post within the public sector, managing, as I said, those large, complex services across a wide community. I've held statutory roles before—I think that's helpful—as head of paid service but also as monitoring officer, so I understand what it means and what it takes to be in a statutory role operating within legislation that's set for us. Strategic management—I'd bring that to this role, understanding what it means to manage an organisation, a workforce budget, in order to make sure that there's effective and efficient delivery of services and managing change through that process. So, I bring that to it. Political awareness—I understand this is an independent role, but political awareness around the environment I would be operating within. And I particularly bring, I think, a lot of experience of working in collaboration across the public sector. We don't operate in isolation within local government or any part of the public sector. And I think I bring all of those things, that experience and knowledge, to this role. So, I suppose I've got that understanding of what the role involves, what it means to be the chief exec of a public body, the challenges you face.

I've just referenced the diversity and the complexity of these organisations and that things do sometimes go wrong. What I've valued as a chief exec from the ombudsman's office is that, when we don't get those things right in our organisation, there is that independent body, that independent role, that will pick up that issue and look at it independently and come back to us and try and seek resolution. The thing I found particularly helpful and I would like to focus on in my term in office in this role is around early resolution, so at a point where the ombudsman's come to us and said, 'Look, this has gone wrong. It looks like there's a way we could fix this and resolve things quite early on.' So, you get a good outcome for the service user, you get an adjustment within the public body to recognise they could have done that better and make sure we do it better in the future for any other individuals, and having that independent look at what we've done can be very helpful. My approach in this role would be—and I hope my background in public service would help me in this—a collaborative approach with public bodies across the public sector, not seeing it as an 'us and them', but a collaborative approach, because I genuinely believe we all want the same thing, which is good public services in Wales and to keep on improving them and being at the leading edge of good public service delivery. And we can do that collaboratively. And sometimes that independent view, that critical friend, is really helpful in improving services.

I welcome your commitment to early resolution. Very few people set out to do a bad job, no organisation sets out to do a bad job, but people make mistakes. I'm a football fan, and I see defenders making mistakes all the time. They don't do it on purpose, it's just a mistake. And I think sometimes we need to realise that people make mistakes and give them an opportunity at the earliest possible stage to put that right, rather than spending a lot of time investigating it when somebody has just made a genuine error.

Yes, I fully agree. I fully agree. Yes. 

It's a high-profile role, the public services ombudsman, and, whilst being managing director of Blaenau Gwent is a high-profile role in Blaenau Gwent, without being disrespectful, it doesn't have much of an effect on what's going on in Swansea, for example. I think that the ombudsman will have an effect, and an ombudsman's decision against Blaenau Gwent or against Monmouth will actually have an effect on every other local authority in Wales, in the same way that an ombudsman's report on one health board will affect every other health board in Wales. So, what can the public expect from you in this role, and how would your approach differ from the current ombudsman? And I was really pleased that we talked about early resolution. Of course, you'll come back and report to us in the future, when we'll find out if that's true. [Laughter.]

Of course. So, the first part of your question about what would the public expect from me—well, I do appreciate the importance of this role, and that I'll be stepping into a public role, as you say, that's got a much wider reach and impact right across Wales and across parts of the public sector outside local government, so I do fully appreciate that. I think the way I would want to approach it would be to be very visible in the role; I would want to be actively involved in networking and being out there and promoting the work of the public services ombudsman, letting people know that we're there and what we do and how we can help, as you say, when things do go wrong. And that's about improving our accessibility and our scope as a service.

So, I would want to be very proactive in that space and have that visible leadership, if I can put it that way. And I recognise that that's quite an effort in terms of my time and resource, because of the scope of this role, but I think that would be very, very important. People need to know who I am and what I'm responsible for. I think—

Thank you.

Sorry. I was going to say, in respect of my own personal approach, then the way I approach things is with fairness, with impartiality and high levels of integrity, and that's been right through my career in public service. And I recognise the independence of this role, and it's important I defend and protect that independence, but, at the same time, understand I do need to be accountable, and you referenced that there towards the end of your question. So, that independence is really important and making the decisions—the right decisions, not the easy decisions, but making the right decisions and recognising sometimes those won't always be popular. But doing the right thing, really, and trying to really raise the profile of the office and do some really good work around service improvement across the public sector.

Thank you very much. I think that you and the auditor general have jobs or roles that are different to everybody else working in the public sector. You do it on behalf of yourself, in many respects: you are the ombudsman, the auditor general is the auditor general; you'll have staff and support, but everything is done in your name. Currently, things are done in the name of Blaenau Gwent council, so it does increase your profile quite considerably. There's no training for this, unless you're working for the organisation previously, and I don't think that gives you full training for it—and that, by the way, is not meant as a criticism; it's just the way the post exists. So, how do you intend working with the current ombudsman to ensure a smooth transition, and to learn from him and discover from him some of the pitfalls that he has overcome?

Firstly, I'd like to say, huge credit to Nick Bennett and his staff for the work they've done over the last eight years, and how they've taken the work of this office forward. It must have been particularly difficult, as it has been for all of the public sector, in the last couple of years. I had the opportunity to speak to Nick as part of the process,  and that was hugely helpful, to get an insight from him into what it means to do the role. Once I'm confirmed in post, what I would want to do is—there'd be a very short time, because I know he leaves his position at the end of March, but—to use that time to spend time with him, so I can understand, as you say, from him not the bits written on paper, but how it feels to be ombudsman, how it feels to do that, what are the real challenges he faces, what can I expect to face in terms of those challenges—so, spending a lot more time with him than the half-hour call I had as part of the process.

I do recognise that he's got a huge amount of knowledge and expertise to impart and I would want to try, in an ordered way, to get much benefit from that before he leaves office. But I'm very conscious that any new leader, senior leader, coming into an organisation can create uncertainty as well for the workforce, so I'd want to be working with Nick to make sure there's a real smooth transition between us, so that it reduces that uncertainty that there may be for staff, and that that's seamless, but also that there isn't any interruption in terms of the service and the work that the office does while I get into post and get up to speed. So, I'd be looking to his goodwill to work with me, and I'm sure he would. I would be keen to meet him and the senior team very early on once I'm confirmed, and then take it forward from there. And I think there are some other key areas I'm interested in, such as meeting with the chair of the advisory panel—I'm very interested in the benefit of having that panel there for me as a new ombudsman. You mentioned training, and you're right, but there's a wealth of knowledge around that table in terms of the advisory panel, and indeed the work of their audit and risk committee. So, there are a lot of people there, the chairs of those two committees as well, I'd want to work very closely with, because I recognise I've got a lot to learn very quickly.

And the final question from me, which is a much shorter one. One of the things that Nick Bennett tried to do, and many of us were in favour of, was give a voice to the voiceless, especially for people like the homeless and others. Will you be meeting with Nick to discuss how much progress he made on that? I think he'd probably tell you he didn't make as much progress as he would have liked, but as a direction of travel he really wanted to follow, I hope you also want to follow it, and will you discuss with him what more can be done to give a voice to the voiceless?

Absolutely. It's one of the key drivers for me in this role. The people who need our help the most are the ones that will struggle to find us and have their voice put forward. So, I absolutely agree with you there. The ombudsman's own research shows there are key groups that don't currently access. The last two years has been a huge disruption for all public services. It won't have helped them in moving that agenda forward, so increasing the profile of our work, and accessibility to our office, is absolutely something that would be a priority for me, and yes, it would be something I'd be discussing with Nick.

Thank you very much.

Diolch, Mike. I'll pass on to Peter. If we can unmute Peter.

Thanks, Chair, and hello, Michelle. It's good to see you, and congratulations on getting this far. I suppose I want to just talk, to start off, about local government, and how you might deal with complaints about local government, because you've obviously been immersed in it for so long. Aligned to that, how would you manage the challenge of complaints against your own current authority? What sorts of issues does that present to you?

Yes, thanks. Good question, because clearly I have to be very, very mindful—I mentioned integrity earlier on—I have to be very mindful of conflicts of interest, and also perceived conflicts of interest, which are just as important. So, clearly, stepping into this role I would no longer be the chief exec of a public authority, but having left it recently, there could well be cases or issues coming forward that were there on my watch, if you like. So I'm very mindful of that, and that awareness is the first important thing. The second is then I would work with my senior team and advisers to say, 'Right, how do I deal with these things?' Initially, particularly in the early days—i.e. when my time in Blaenau Gwent has been very recent—I would need to step back from those things and put alternative arrangements in place to make sure that there's absolutely a clear wall between me and any decision made by the ombudsman's office in relation to those. I'm very, very aware of that. Over time that will recede, but in the early days, it will be very important. 

In terms of the other side, which I think is perhaps a little trickier, it's just that perceived conflict, as you indicate. People might feel I'm more inclined to be supportive and empathetic towards local government because I've spent my career there. So, I would have to be very careful about that, and very careful, I suppose, to ensure there's a check and a challenge for me, that I'm not erring too much in one direction or the other, putting those checks and challenges in place, and using the good offices and the advice of my senior team, and perhaps the advisory panel as well, to keep me very clear on that. Because that perception will be there, and it's very important that I address that early on. So, I do recognise that those conflicts exist there.

On the issue of conflicts, I've got a couple of other areas on my CV where you'll see that I have two other non-executive roles that I currently hold. I recognise that, stepping into the role as public services ombudsman, I wouldn't be able to continue with those roles, and I would resign from those as well. Because I recognise the need to focus 100 per cent on this position.

Thank you, Michelle, and you've answered part of my next question with that. I think your experience in local government also will be a great advantage as well, because you understand as well as anyone the intricacies of it, and sometimes how things get escalated out of proportion, and having that grounding will help, no doubt, for you to be able to define things quite quickly, and understand the situation. I was going to ask you about any additional roles you've got currently that might be a conflict of interest, and you've just shared that, so thank you. Is there anything further in your background of any potential issue that could come forward at any future date that we ought to know about? 

No. I've obviously been asked that question through the process and, no, I don't believe so, no. 

Thanks for that. Sorry we had to ask that question, but it's something—

Fair enough.

—that is important in the role that you're going to hold that we're absolutely clear. Just a couple more questions from me. You've already said some of your key priorities: early resolution; a collaborative approach; improving accessibility; giving a voice to the voiceless, those sorts of things. I wondered if there were any other key—. Well, you're going to have several key priorities, I'm sure, for the office. What sort of innovations might you introduce in the short term, perhaps, that will help you make the progress you want, and will deal with some of these huge case load pressures you're likely to have? And I expect they're growing day by day. 

Yes, absolutely. Demand for these services is going to increase, and we know our resources won't increase in proportion to it. So, innovation will be important. I think in terms of how we manage case load going forward, make sure we are continually challenging ourselves on are we as efficient and effective as we can be, that that's going to be really important. So, I think innovation there around areas like digital, around designing our processes and how we deliver services around our customers—not around how we think it should be delivered, but around our customers—and, actually, continually checking in with our customers about how they feel in receipt of our services, and how they can be improved. And I think all of those things are very important. I'm a big advocate of digital and using that where we can to make public services more efficient, but I think we also have to be mindful of the need to have a variety of ways that people can contact us, because we don't want to reach a position where we've got people who are digitally excluded from accessing us. So, those are important. 

I think the other area for innovation, for me, is the new powers that the ombudsman has. So, those came into the Act in 2019. There will have been little time for Nick Bennett and his team, I'm sure, to have put them in place, or to have taken those forward with what's been happening. So, I'd be very keen that we start really looking at how we can use those own-initiative powers as part of how we do things on a week-to-week, month-to-month basis in order to drive the right improvement in public services, and reduce some of that case load demand in the future, because if you can identify an issue that you think is more widespread than one complaint, and you can fix it in a more widespread way, or seek resolution, then you will prevent that workload coming forward in the future.  

So, there is something there about the prevention agenda. I don't know if these are innovations, Peter, but they're certainly the sorts of things that are getting ahead of the problem. So, I'm very interested in the work that we need to do around the Complaints Standards Authority, so working with public bodies, local government and health included, around how they handle complaints because, let's face it, if complaints are handled close to the problem within those organisations, then they don't come through the system, and only the more complex and difficult ones come through. So, some proactive work there, and also around the areas of conduct—proactive work with members. We know we're going to have an influx probably of new members in the spring after local government elections. How do we work with local authorities and those new members to make sure they understand what good conduct looks like, and try and reduce that risk for those issues and complaints flowing through to us in the future? So, I think there is something about that preventative work in collaboration with local authorities to be more innovative in how we do that part of our role. 

Thanks, and I think that is a really good point about the new members coming in. I think early input into any induction process would be really important to help people understand the code, and those barriers and things that you shouldn't step over. That would be useful. You talked about making efficiencies, or constantly striving for efficiency, and I know from a local government background that that won't be new to you, and it is something, one of those principles we have, where we always look—. All organisations should look for efficiencies where we can, so I think you've already shared that you'll be looking at that, moving forward.

The last couple of points, really, from me. Obviously, you're steeped in that local government background; we know about that and I'm sure there will be some pros and cons. I think you touched on those throughout. But I suppose what I could do with understanding is how you're going to get yourself up to speed with those other areas that you're going to be overseeing—you know, the health side of things. That's probably going to be much of your work, I'm sure, for the couple of years ahead. So, how do you feel you're going to manage that? What plans have you got in place?

Yes. I've given that thought, because, as you say, I have less experience in areas such as health, housing and those other sectors. I bring some experience from my partnership working, but yes, less direct experience. I think, there, for me, it's about how I spend my time when I start that handover with Nick Bennett and how I spend my time familiarising myself with the service, with the staff, and getting out and talking to public authorities and to stakeholders as well. I would be very keen to do that early on when I'm in post, as part of that visibility and people knowing that I've arrived and who I am. I think, there, I need to prioritise my time into those sectors where I don't know people, where I haven't got those strong personal networks to draw upon, so prioritising health would definitely be something I'd need to do, because you're right, the high case load that comes from health means it's an area I'm going to spend a lot of my time on.

So, spending time with my team who will have expertise in the health area and business that we deal with, spending time with the key people from those public authorities, and probably drawing on the experience of my colleagues in the ombudsman's offices across the UK as well, and developing the expertise through that professional network. So, I think all of those things, and I think very specifically we'd want to have a look at the balance of the advisory panel, because I don't think, at the moment, from my understanding of it, that there's anyone on the advisory panel that comes from a health background, for example, yet that's a big driver of our business, and so it might help me in terms of that advisory panel in perhaps bringing that in. And apologies to anyone who's on there who does have a health background, but from my look at it I couldn't see that that was there. So, there are a number of things I'd do to try and make sure I've got people I can draw on in terms of their knowledge and experience and prioritising my time on familiarisation in the sectors where I'm not so familiar.

Thanks, Michelle. That's all from me.

Thank you, Peter.

Thank you, Peter. I've got a few last questions from myself. You touched on a little bit of this already, but I'd like you to explain how you'll balance driving service improvements whilst also managing ever-increasing complaints and enquiries, particularly given the challenging case load projections and the interim KPIs that have been reported. Obviously, we're not that close to the numbers yet, but potentially looking at qualitative and quantitative elements of it.

Yes. So, I might be a bit repetitive here, but to answer you fully, I think for me it starts with that accessibility piece and making sure it's as easy as possible for people to access the organisation, and when they come in, that they understand what we can do and what we can't do, and there's good information and processes up front for that. But I think the things I've already touched on—. So, the use of the own-initiative powers and greater use of those—. You know, the development of the use of those powers to try and be, to my mind, more proactive in identifying problems and solving them before they come to us as complaints. If we've got that ability to go a bit wider, and we can do so, that would help with workload. I've already, then, touched on the triaging as complaints come in to us. There will be complaints that perhaps we can work with authorities on to seek an early resolution. They don't have to then go through to more complex and resource-intensive investigations, and that allows us to use our resources where they need to be, i.e. on the smaller number of more complex cases. So, I think early resolution is really important, focusing our resources where they need to be.

And I think the other area for me—. I've talked about, in response to the previous questions, the preventative nature of some of the work we need to do: learning and advice upfront for key groups, so that we try and reduce the rate of complaints coming through, or they're dealt with in the right way, or they don't arise in the first place. So, I think all of those things are important.

And then, the only thing I perhaps haven't touched upon is just trying to create the right culture and environment within the office so that everyone who works in the ombudsman's office has got that in their mind about always looking at how we do things and challenging them and looking for ways that we can improve them. I think it's very important to be that sort of learning organisation, so that everyone feels that they can bring ideas forward and that it's a safe environment to be able to try new things in a safe and managed way, and if things don't work, fine, we move on and we learn from it. So, it's just about trying to create an organisation where everyone's thinking about our efficiency and effectiveness and how we can improve things, rather than that just be invested in a few people.

And the final point, probably—and I have touched on it—is just about being very focused on our service users and our customers, continually checking in with them about how they feel about our services and where they think we could be improving things, and that might help us to identify efficiencies and effectiveness as well. So, there's quite a package of things there, and the role of the advisory panel and, of course, the audit and risk committee going forward and, indeed, the role of you on the Finance Committee, is about challenging that and identifying and helping us, to be those critical friends to look at how we can improve further. We will never stop that journey of seeking to improve.

Thank you. I'd like to look at what will the office of the Public Services Ombudsman for Wales look like in 2029, at the end of your term as the ombudsman. What's the long-term vision you have for the office and how will that benefit Welsh public life?

I think my long-term vision would be that we're a service that is well-known and is accessible, people know how to access our services; that we operate our business in an efficient and effective way, we are that learning organisation and that we're continually seeking to improve how we deliver services; that we're using the powers vested in the office, through the legislation, to really drive service improvement across the public sector and that we're doing that in collaboration with public bodies to seek those improvements. And at the end of it, I would want us to be seen as a trusted organisation and something that is a force for good in the Welsh public sector.

Great. Thank you. The Public Services Ombudsman for Wales deals with a number of complaints from all sorts of stakeholders, including listed authorities, and some of those will be through the medium of the Welsh language. How will you ensure that the ombudsman continues to work effectively through the medium of Welsh?

Well, I'm Welsh, I was born and brought up in Wales—very proud to be Welsh. So, for me, I do understand our unique culture and heritage. We are a bilingual community, and I realise the importance of that in Wales and the importance of supporting and promoting the Welsh language through the delivery of all our public services. So, coming into this role, I would be absolutely committed to that, and the sorts of things I'm looking at there would be that we need to be able to comply with the Welsh language standards that the commissioner has set out. We need people to be able to access our services in the language of their choice and that service needs to be equitable whether they're coming to us in Welsh or in English; it needs to be equitable and they need to have the same experience. I think there's an important piece of work to do there around workforce planning. We need a workforce that has the right level of skills to be able to deliver those services bilingually. It doesn't mean everyone, but it does mean that, in certain key roles, we would need to make sure that there's the right balance of skills, and, indeed, that we support staff to keep developing those skills where they wish to.

I think, then, in terms of developing policies and developing services—this has been my experience throughout my career—we need to make sure that the principle of that service or that policy being bilingual is built in at the outset; it isn't something that's added on to the end, but it's built in from the outset and designed into services and designed into how we develop and deliver our policies. And I've had experience of this pretty much throughout my career here in Wales, obviously, working in bilingual communities, but actually in Scotland for 10 years as well, working in very much a bilingual community in the north of Scotland. So, I have a range of experience of working in that sort of environment. I would be committed to making sure the service is equitable in both languages.

Diolch, and my final question: how will you engage with stakeholders, other regulators and commissioners, and how will you develop a relationship with this community and engage with its scrutiny and recommendations? Not 'community', sorry; 'with this committee'. I'm reading in my second language, sorry. [Laughter.]

No problem. So, on other stakeholders, other commissioners and the network of ombudsmen across the UK, I think those are two where it's very important for me to be engaged in those professional networks. Personal resilience can be quite a challenge in a senior leadership role, and getting that personal resilience from being involved in those networks and working with peers and colleagues will be very important. As we've talked about already this afternoon, I've got a lot to learn coming into this role, and there's a lot of expertise out there that I hope I could draw on. So, I'd be approaching that proactively from the outset, making the approach, introducing myself, hopefully getting out to meet people, but that will depend on how we're working come the spring. Hopefully, by April, I will be able to do that, meet people and start building positive working relationships I will develop through my time in office and hopefully will be of benefit to the work I do. So, I do understand the importance of that and would be looking to make that a priority when I arrive, as part of my familiarisation with the role. 

In terms of this committee, then, as I said earlier, this is an independent role, as is the auditor general, but I recognise it's a very important public role, spending public money and resources and delivering important public services. So, it's important that I am held to account for the work that I do and the office does, and I welcome that. Coming from a local government background, I'm well used to that committee system, to being held to account by elected representatives for the work I do. So, that's not something I feel uncomfortable with, and I value the importance of that and the conversations we'll have in the future. So, as far as I'm concerned, I'll engage constructively and positively with you as a committee and look forward to doing that. 

Diolch yn fawr iawn. Thank you very much for a fascinating 40 minutes with you. I'll just ask if either Peter or Mike have any further questions that they might want to ask. No, that's great. Well, thank you so much.

I'll now propose that we go into private session. So, I propose, in accordance with Standing Order 17.42, that this committee resolves to exclude the public from the remainder of this meeting. Is everybody content? Great. Thank you.