Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru

This meeting is being broadcast live on Senedd.tv, and it's taking place in hybrid format today. Can I remind Members and members of the public that all Standing Orders remain in place as a normal meeting would? And can I thank the clerking team and also the broadcasting team and information and communications technology team who have pulled together this hybrid meeting in a short time frame as well? We do really appreciate your efforts, and I thought it was important for the record there.

The meeting is bilingual and translation is available. A Record of Proceedings will also be published in due course. Housekeeping arrangements for those in person today—if a fire alarm is to go off, then please exit the building. The clerking teams and security will aid us with that. And, again, you do not need to touch any buttons—and I look to Luke here—your microphones will unmute by themselves.

Item 1 on today's agenda, apologies, substitutions and declarations of interest. We have received apologies from Joel James MS, and we are very lucky in his replacement to have the Welsh Conservative Member for Brecon and Radnorshire, James Evans, with us here today. So, welcome, James. It's a pleasure to have you. Can I remember—? Can I remind—apologies—committee members that they should note any declarations of interest, either now or at the relevant point through today's proceedings? I can see Members have none today.

Item 2 then, therefore, evidence session, and panel 1, and we're taking evidence on P-06-1161, 'Routine collection and publication of data of how many babies/children return to their care experienced parents care at the end of a Parent and Child Placement'. So, at our meeting on 15 November, the committee accepted the recommended approach in the scoping paper from the research team and agreed to take direct evidence from care-experienced parents, from local authorities, the Children and Family Court Advisory and Support Service and third-sector organisations who support the young people, and invite academics from the Children’s Social Care Research and Development Centre at Cardiff University to present their research findings in the area.

So, today's evidence session will consist of two panels. During the first part of the meeting we will be hearing evidence from those with lived experience. And shortly after, we will be hearing from service providers. So, in panel 1 today, we do have with us Dr Louise Roberts, who's the author of The Children of Looked After Children, which, very kindly, I have a book in front of me here. And we also have Jennifer Molloy, who also, I note, wrote a very powerful letter at the back of this book. So, I would encourage Members to certainly have a look at that when they get the chance to come. So, thank you for being with us here today. Would you like to firstly introduce yourself for the record?

So, my name's Louise Roberts. I'm a senior lecturer in social work at Cardiff University. I'm also part of CASCADE, the Children's Social Care Research and Development Centre.

Thank you.

Hi, I'm Jennifer Molloy. I am a parent to five children, but I only actively parent two; I have children that were adopted. I am a care leaver. I've also helped, during the lockdown, to help a charity, Voices from Care, to set up a peer parenting support group, and I've helped Louise do the book.  

Thank you, both, for that. I think we're very lucky to have you both here today, and we really thank Jennifer for taking the time out. We're certainly looking forward to hearing your evidence today, and we thank you for that.

Dr Roberts, before we start, I think you wanted to present to us some of your findings from a presentation. Members have the presentation in front of them, I believe. So, if I hand over to you first, then we'll take questions from Members.

Okay, thank you. We thought it'd be helpful if we started by me giving a summary of the research findings and the work that we've been doing since the study ended.

So, for several years now, my interest has been in what happens when young people in and leaving care become parents. So, I'm going to summarise the research study and the findings, and talk about a good practice charter that we've developed since then.

So, the research study was a five-year study, undertaken between 2014 and 2019. It's important to say that the idea didn't come from me, sat in my office, thinking what would be a good research study and an interesting topic. The idea came from young people connected to Voices from Care, of which Jen was one. Over time, the organisation had become concerned at what they thought was a pattern of young people going on to start families of their own, sometimes having a positive experience, but in too many instances, young people feeling they were inadequately supported and experiencing compulsory children's services intervention. So, the organisation was really keen that some independent research was done to explore this further. 

My study had several different phases. It included interviews with parents looking back on their experiences. It also included interviews with parents as they were about to have a baby, or just had a baby, and sort of following them periodically over time. It also involved interviews with professionals. I linked in with every leaving care team or service across Wales, so all 22 authorities participated. I also wanted to get a snapshot of current parents. What became clear to us at the outset was that there isn't routinely collected data in regard to how many parents there are at any one time, or each year, and there isn't data available in terms of outcomes for parents and families. We don't know how many children remain in the care of their parents and how many become separated. So, the snapshot aimed to provide that information.

We also conducted some secondary analysis of existing national data sets. The key one to talk about here is the Wales adoption study. That was led by Professor Katherine Shelton, also at Cardiff University, and that captured every child that was adopted in Wales over a 13-month period. The aim of conducting secondary analysis on that data set was again to further what we know about outcomes. We were interested in how many birth parents were recorded as a care leaver from that data, and I'll say a bit more about that shortly. 

The photograph you can see, and what has just been mentioned, is my book. I know time is really pressured today, but the book is free to download off our website. We wanted to make it as freely available as possible and encourage as many people as possible to read it. It comprehensively talks about the study and the findings. The other reason that I mention it is because it ends with a letter from a parent, who is Jen. I always say to people, if you do nothing else, please download it and scroll to the end and just read Jen's letter, because it really powerfully and succinctly summarises the key issues that were raised in the research. The other reason I point to it is because Jen makes a plea that the research isn't the end point, and that something positive comes out of this work.

Before I talk about our ongoing work, I just want to briefly summarise some key findings. The research found concerning evidence in respect of outcomes and concerning levels of separation. I mentioned the Wales adoption study, and what we found from that was that one in four birth mothers were recorded as care leavers, and one in five birth fathers. I mentioned the snapshot of parents, and I've got the figures here. We identified 258 parents, 238 children and 44 ongoing pregnancies. I should say that only 20 out of the 22 local authorities worked with me on this phase. We found 26 per cent of children to be separated from both biological parents. Because we don't have routinely collected data, it's hard to work out what those figures mean. What I tend to point to is that if we think that around 1 per cent of children are recorded as being in care each year, it becomes quite confronting to think that care leavers make up such sizeable numbers of birth parents subject to the highest level of state intervention in family life. Similarly, if 1 per cent of children are recorded as being in care each year, yet 26 per cent of children are separated from both birth parents in this cohort—as I said, 10 per cent in foster care, 9 per cent who were adopted and 7 per cent living with friends and family—the concerning levels of separation become clear. 

What we were also interested in was experiences and perspectives, both of professionals and of parents. We found evidence of stigma, discrimination and disadvantage. To give you a couple of examples, we found that there was a propensity to question the influence of parents' experiences, both before care and in care, on their ability to be parents. The idea is, 'You didn't experience good parenting or normal parenting as a child, therefore you don't know what it is to be a good parent.' So, right from the outset, people's ability to be parents can be questioned. In addition, we found evidence of the routine referral of parents to children's services for parenting assessments. And we found that there was a concern about them being disadvantaged in terms of access to historical information. If we think that young people in care have a wealth of historical information held on them, there was routine access to that information. There was concern about how that information and past issues, which may or not have continued relevance, and may or may not be accurate, were affecting relationships with social workers, perceptions of social workers and the outcomes of the assessments. 

What we found in terms of support was that it was variable and underdeveloped across Wales. It is important to note that some changes have happened since that—and you've got the National Youth Advocacy Service Cymru speaking later, and Barnardo's. From our perspective, when we were speaking to the leaving care teams, what we saw was that a lot of emphasis was placed on parents having access to informal sources of support. So, are there birth family members, is there a partner, a partner's family, a former foster carer; does the young person have somebody available who they can rely on, because if they do, that was seen as really important. In the unfortunate circumstances where people are more reliant on their corporate parents, then success in parenting was seen as much more challenging, because it was generally accepted that support available from corporate parents was a really poor substitute for what you'd ordinarily expect to be available from birth families. 

As I said, we have seen recent progress from the third sector, which is great. What we have tried to do at CASCADE and in partnership with other organisations is work to develop corporate parenting support. We have worked to develop a good practice charter, and in that project we worked in partnership with Voices from Care Cymru, NYAS Cymru and TGP Cymru. Our charter was co-produced with care-experienced parents. Jen has been central to its development. But it has also been developed through consultation with statutory professionals and third sector professionals. We really wanted this charter to be aspirational but also to be meaningful and workable for everybody. The charter makes an explicit commitment to providing holistic support. So, we encourage corporate parents to think about the support that should be available to parents before young people become a parent, what should be available as people are expecting a child or when they're parenting, what should be available if there are concerns about parenting or, in the worst case, what should be available if parents and children are separated. We also wanted the charter to make explicit their commitment to challenging stigma and discrimination.

The picture that you can see in front of you is our poster version. We have several different versions of the charter. We have the full extended version with space for signatories, then we have this poster version, which is intended to be displayed around offices, when we're all back working normally, as a reminder for professionals, and we have a leaflet version that we distribute to parents, or is designed for professionals to speak to parents about what it does. We're in the process of promoting that at the moment to local authorities. Our goal has always been to have every local authority to commit to it and for it to be passed at corporate parenting boards. To date, we know that the Vale of Glamorgan have passed this at their corporate parenting panel. We presented to the all-Wales heads of children's services meeting in December. We were told that it was on the agenda for a couple of the boards at that meeting, and we're actively working with a couple of extra local authorities. Because Mother's Day is coming up, we thought that it would be an opportune time to follow up on that, so we've sent hard copies of the charter and leaflets again to every head of service, offering our support to do presentations—whatever it is they want us to do, we will gladly support the implementation—and asking them as well if they can just let us know how it's going. We've had a lot of support for the charter. It's generally been really well received. We had supporting letters from Sally Holland, Children's Commissioner for Wales, Alistair Davey in Welsh Government, and, more recently, Social Care Wales were supportive as well. We just need to keep on pushing and just making sure that it gets passed.

So, that's where we are. We did have a short film that summarised the charter, because I know I'm whizzing through it, but that is available, and a summary of the research, on our website. We have created a website that has a range of resources that we're always promoting to local authorities, and it includes on there a blog that was written by Jen, a podcast that features Jen. There's lots on there. And I just want to, before I stop talking—. The photograph on the back page is a copy of the full version of the charter. Jen took that photograph and we thought it would be perfect to include for today's meeting.

Thank you very much. I think it is perfect. Jen, you're obviously very busy. That's what I took from that. I think we might come on to the charter later on. We've got about half an hour-ish to try and get some questions in, and really try and understand a bit more about what it is like to be in that situation. It's very interesting and timely as well with Mother's Day coming up, as you say. If I can bring Luke Fletcher in first for the first set of questions. 

Diolch, Gadeirydd. Thank you for that presentation. You do seem very busy, Jen, so thank you for coming here today. I suppose I'm really interested to know a bit more about what it's like to be a care-experienced parent, so I was wondering if you could tell us about some of the extra practical and emotional challenges and difficulties that care-experienced parents face. 

As I mentioned, I'm a parent to five children and actively parenting two. I have two that are adopted and one in long-term foster care. Right at the start of my journey, I was actually in care when I first got pregnant at 17. My biggest issue then was I found myself homeless and subject to a care order in hospital. So, regardless of just the normal parenting boundaries and the issues you have around parenting, I was homeless, subject to a care order, and the local authority was focusing on my child, not me, even though I was still technically a looked-after child. So, that's one of the issues. 

The other issue is who talks to you about basics of pregnancy and contraception and stuff, and what you go through when you're pregnant. I was in a position where I was in a foster home and I was at the later stage of pregnancy, asked for advice, and the foster carer said she couldn't give me the advice because she was worried about the implications of me suing her if the advice was wrong. I couldn't get hold of a medical team. I didn't want to bother them with something that was small. If I had been in a normal house, I would have asked my parents. And just day-to-day things. Now I'm a lot older, but I still sometimes need advice, and it's like, 'Who do you go to for that advice?' I'm lucky that I have a good relationship with my school, so if I need something I'll ask my child's school, so it's sometimes them.

And also, as a female, for lots of females, as soon as you tell the midwifery team you're care experienced or you've had involvement, they ask the question, 'Have you had involvement with social services?' The moment you say, 'I was a child in care', you instantly get a pink form put in. To a lot of us mums, it's known as a pink form and you're referred to get support. So, sometimes it's, 'Do you want to tell the midwifery team?' This has affected me not just in the pregnancy when I was in care; it's also affected me in the pregnancies later on. My last pregnancy was only two years ago and I still had the pink form put in. I already knew what was happening, so I spoke to the social services team in my area, but I still knew that was going to go in, and that can subsequently maybe sometimes stop people asking for help, or even going to health professionals. 

I suppose you've answered one of my follow-up questions. I was interested in knowing what sort of additional support was available to you, but it sounds like it was fairly patchy and, actually, that there are some barriers as well, even when that support is available, where you might not want to actually come forward and take up that support.

One of the biggest barriers is it comes down to a lot of financial problems and who's going to take on the responsibility of the financial implications. During my court proceedings for the children that were adopted it was identified that I needed additional therapy. When I left court, there was nowhere I could get that therapy. I was going to my GP practice, saying I'd been recommended this course of cognitive behavioural therapy. The NHS weren't in a position to give me that, and my GP actually said I was just upset because of the situation I was in after losing a child, but I needed that therapy to keep my children. Then, subsequently to that, I had another child that was adopted because I hadn't been able to get the therapy. Luckily, I was able to get the therapeutic help through Voices from Care Cymru. They had counsellors in and I was already linked with them, doing volunteer stuff. So, I was lucky that I was able to get that support. So, that's one of the biggest issues: when there are recommendations of things that need to happen, whose responsibility is it afterwards to get that support and help, even down to basic things, like housing and getting your house ready? This is why I think the charter is so important.

You're probably all aware of the Sure Start maternity grant, but if you've had children removed you're not necessarily going to keep their baby stuff, but it's obviously expected that you do. But, for me, then, I was moving around, moving placements. I then wasn't able to get the right support for that, and when you're going through parenting assessments, it's advised that you get everything ready. So, social workers and their managers like to see that you have the provisions there, so have a pram, have a cot and a bedroom set up, which I think is unnecessary, if they don't know the outcome of an assessment, for you to set up a complete nursery, because then you're left with a room that's very upsetting and distressing to see, and then you have to make the choice of keeping the stuff or not, but then at that point you're not thinking about further pregnancies or further children. So, sometimes, that can be a barrier, trying to just complete the assessment and the basic things to complete assessments. 

Thank you. Did you want to add something, sorry, Louise? 

So, you mentioned additional needs that parents may experience. So, in the snapshot of current parents that I mentioned, some of the questions that we asked in that were around the recorded needs that parents had. And, over the course of the research, we found evidence of practical needs, relational needs, emotional needs and financial needs. Almost all of the parents in our sample had multiple needs, often. So, there was a range of things. As I said, I had my son when I was young and I had an army of support around me at that time. I still say it was the hardest thing I've ever done, but to think that I wouldn't have anybody to let me have a break, I'd be worried about paying rent, I'd be worried about having enough food, things like that, it would just amplify the pressure. Some of the parents that I've met over the course of this research are living with such adversity, in such difficult situations and they're seen as at risk. Their children can be seen as at risk, whereas I look at them and I think, 'You're doing absolutely amazing.' It's just shifting that frame and recognising their resilience.

Thank you for that. I've got a couple more questions, but I'm conscious my colleagues might be touching on some of the stuff you've already talked about. So, I'll move on for a second. The Welsh Government says it will be funding advocacy services for parents whose children are at risk of coming into care. I was wondering to what extent are there advocacy services available at the moment for care-experienced young parents whose children are at risk of going into care.

We've seen a real improvement in terms of advocacy availability in terms of the National Youth Advocacy Service's Project Unity service. Sharon Lovell, who I know is going to speaking later, was part of an advisory board as I was doing the research, so we were in contact about the emerging findings. She was seeing things through NYAS as well. So, the fact that that has received investment means that advocacy support is available across Wales, in addition to a range of holistic support as well through Project Unity. So, that is fantastic. It just depends on how well the service is known, how active professionals are in terms of communicating that to parents and just getting that message out that support is available.

But also, just to add, where the advocacy side of it comes up, it's very hard sometimes for the advocates, because they can't actually do anything when it comes to court arenas. They can sit in the courtroom area and support the parent, but they're not allowed to give evidence. A lot of the time, the assessments and their reports aren't taken into account. And sometimes, these advocates might have known these young people for many years, so they would be a good judge of character, to be able to say, 'Oh yes, I've seen a positive change in this person', but they're not allowed to give evidence in court. I think that's one of the biggest problems. And if you look at section 6 in the leaving care Act—I'm not sure what it's called—there's a part where it says about people being in care, but it doesn't say anything about parents being in care, so I think that needs to be looked at, to give advocates a better chance of supporting care leavers when they become parents.

Yes. I suppose, again, you've answered one of my questions as if you're reading my mind at the moment, so I've got an idea of how you might be able to answer this one, but I think it's key that actually we ask you directly in terms of what sort of advocacy support you need. So, what sort of advocacy support should be provided to care-experienced parents, to support them during proceedings in court?

I would say independent advocacy, so that it's not the advocate being afraid to challenge local authorities, because it's not their funding and jobs on the line. And again, advocates that are able to actually advocate fully. Obviously, there is the Children and Family Court Advisory and Support Service available, but then, I didn't have a relationship with my CAFCASS officer. I had a relationship with the advocate, who had known me for many years, but they weren't allowed to come in and say what I was like as a person. So, my CAFCASS officer was saying that I was shy and all this, and I'd only met them a handful of times, where I'd had a working relationship. But, fundamentally, it should be independent—independent advocacy across Wales—so that they can challenge it.

Do you have anything to add, Louise?

I think Jen has covered that.

Thank you very much for that. Back to you, Chair.

Diolch yn fawr, Luke. We'll fly over to the screens at the Rhondda. Buffy Williams.

Thank you, Chair, and thank you, Jennifer. My questions are to you, Jennifer. I was just wondering—. I know you've touched on it previously with Luke, but while you were pregnant, do you think that professionals and other services treated you differently because you were a care-experienced person? Do you feel that you were treated differently?

I still feel like I'm treated differently, even though I'm a care-experienced mum at age 35, because I'm well known to the local authority in my local area. I know a lot of people in the social services office, so even if I went there for something not related to my children, I know a lot of people to say hello to, and the LAC people and everything, so I feel that I'm still treated differently, and I was definitely treated differently because I was 17 and challenging them. It's definitely been a lot different since I've known my rights and the terms and everything. Now, I find that sometimes I can get things done correctly because I know that a social worker is meant to—. If they come to you, they're meant to give you it in writing, for example. Whereas, if you don't know your rights, it can be quite difficult to know what to do, even down to when you can get a solicitor involved in meetings. So, yes, it's very difficult, and I think there's very much stigma related in social services, education, health, when it comes to you being in care.

What would have been the main things, then, that would have helped you, and that would have helped you do things differently and see things differently? What would have helped you, then, through that time?

Back when I was 17, it would have been helpful if the corporate parents had done what the corporate parents were meant to have done, and also acted as corporate grandparents. Like I mentioned, I was 17 and still subject to a care order myself, and was homeless, and they were focusing on the needs of my child, which is great, but then I was still technically a child looked after, so they still had a responsibility and right to give me housing, to be the corporate parents they should have been. Better support; I think there needs to be more support around the role of corporate parenting and corporate grandparenting and what comes hand in hand. Also, I'm lucky that in my local authority I know where I can go to get help, but not many young people know where they can go and get help, or feel like normal parents. I love going to my community centre, because I'm treated the same as all the other parents when I go to mums groups, and I can say, 'I've had a really bad night with my child,' or, 'My child has kept me up teething' and ask for advice and not feel judged. But then, if I were to ask or say it in front of a social worker or somebody, I'd be afraid that by me saying, 'I've had a really bad night', that I would instantly have my child taken off me, where we should all be able to say we're tired and parenting is a struggle.

Did you feel more comfortable speaking in the third sector, then, with your local community centres and the local charities than you did with the public sector, such as social services, or a doctor, or a nurse?

Yes, definitely, because I was able to ask for advice. I recently asked for advice in the Flying Start setting about potty training—I'm just potty training my two-year-old—and I was able to say, 'How did you do it?' to people and they were able to tell me how to do it, whereas if you ask a social worker, then they'd instantly be, 'Oh, you don't know how to parent. You don't know how to do that. Why haven't you read that—? Why aren't you doing this like the book said?' Well, children are not like books. They're not cars. There's no mechanic that, you know, you can just do it. Every child is different and every parent is different.

It makes you feel safer, that you're not instantly going to be red flagged and have a referral for saying that things are tough. I just feel safer around people where I can say, like, in a mother and baby group, that's it's tough, and other parents feel the same, and it makes you feel so much more normal than when you're seeing a social worker who thinks you have to be perfect, and there's no such thing as a perfect parent all the time.

Thank you, Jennifer. Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, Buffy. I think it's worth noting for the record that, sometimes, life is just tough for everybody, and we shouldn't put barriers in the way there.

Just before I move on, I've got a question that I'd like to ask. Jennifer, you said about going to get help through the third sector and you've entered the community centre and so on—I'm looking to you there, Louise—is that something the good practice charter—? If the local authority signed up to the good practice charter across Wales, is that something—? Is that the practice that they would encourage, or—? Is that the way you would go? Would you send people to community centres where you would be able to have that open, honest conversation, and feel comfortable?

I'd like it to be both. We've seen positive developments in the third sector and services such as Baby and Me, which is going to be talked about, and Project Unity; they're excellent. What we want to do is strengthen the relationships with corporate parents as well, and social workers are a key part of that.

I have to acknowledge that in the vast majority of instances over the course of the research, parents talked quite negatively about their relationships with social workers. However, there were positive reflections as well, and what was part of that was that parents were saying, 'You know, my social workers said from the outset, "Yes, parenting is hard, but you can do this."' So, they would instil, occasionally, that sense of belief. They wouldn't escalate concerns when parents asked for help; they would see that positively; they would encourage that open, honest working relationship, a productive relationship. And I hope that the charter will support that.

So, when we were developing it, and I mentioned consultations with statutory professionals, and one service manager said what it will do, she hopes, is provide a framework for social workers working with parents to make sure, 'Okay, so are we thinking about housing? Are we thinking about advocacy support?' So, it would be a combination, and putting the emphasis back on support for parents, rather than a focus on risk.

Thank you for that. A question to both of you: if the committee—. The committee, at the end of all our efforts, we're likely to put some recommendations down to the Welsh Government. What would you like to see those recommendations being? I don't mind who goes first.

For me, I just don't want it to be a financial lottery or luck of the draw what a local authority works like. For children in care, when you become a parent, and a care leaver becoming a parent, I don't want it to be down to luck that you have a good relationship with your worker or your local authority works in this way, which is why I think the charter is so important, so everybody works the same, especially because if you've been in foster care in one area—for example, RCT, and you're originally from Cardiff—then when you leave care, you could move back to that area, and if they work differently there, it's like you sometimes wish you'd stayed. This is not just a message from me; this is what all parents—. When we talk, like, in meet ups for young people, they say, 'Well, I'm lucky my local authority does x, y, and z; my local authority does this.' Sometimes, even I've been there thinking, 'Oh, I wish I lived in that local authority, they offer this level of support.' So, this is why I want all local authorities to sign up to the charter, to work the same, equally, so that it's not down to luck, and if the judge is having a good day, you get to be a parent.

Okay. Thanks. And just before I bring Dr Roberts in, you mentioned earlier that the Vale of Glamorgan are the local authority that have signed up to this.

Yes, they've passed it at their corporate parenting board already and they let us know. I think it could be passed in two others as well, but I haven't had confirmation. 

Okay. It might be worth the committee seeking the views of the Vale of Glamorgan. I think we'd like to hear from them as well, about their experience. Can I ask you the same question: what would be the main recommendations you'd like to see the committee make to Welsh Government?

Okay. I've got a couple. The first, as Jen said, is in regards to the charter. Anything that Welsh Government can do to support the implementation of the charter across Wales would be really welcome.

The second is around data. As I said at the outset, we don't have routinely collected data in terms of parents and the outcomes for families. Every person that I've spoken to who has knowledge in this area has always instantly said to me, 'This is a really important area and we need to do better.' I've yet to meet anybody who's questioned, 'Why are you doing research into this?' That has long been the case. It's not unique to Wales, but it hasn't resulted in meaningful change for families and, as far I'm aware, in differences in outcomes. So, I think the only thing that we can do is monitor those numbers. That keeps it visible and it keeps it in our minds. So, that would be the second one.

The third one: Jen mentioned Part 6 of the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014; I was having a quick look through that this morning. There are very few references to young people becoming a parent in the leaving care section. The first reference is in regards to a review meeting can be called or brought forward if there are concerns about a care leaver's parenting capacity, and if there's a risk that a child is going to go into care. That's the first reference. We need to increase—you know, make it explicit that parents need support if and when they become a parent. There's a section that talks about parents with additional support needs. I think there's opportunity in there to recognise that parents are a key group that do need some extra support. So, I would like to see that.

And then the final one is continued support for third sector services, because I have seen an improvement, as I said, in that support availability. 

Brill. Diolch yn fawr. Thank you. Those are really useful recommendations from both. I don't have—. We flew through this session, actually. The answers have been absolutely brilliant. We flew through this session. I don't have any more questions. Luke, do you? No. I'm looking to the screen to see if Members do. James Evans, all the way from Brecon and Radnorshire.

Diolch, Cadeirydd. I had one question. It was in response to a question that Buffy had earlier and it was around—. Sometimes, what I hear from my local authority and parents is that social workers can be very distant, and sometimes that the edge-of-care staff do a fantastic job of supporting parents to keep their children with them, and sometimes I'm not quite sure that they're valued enough by social workers. I just want to know what your view is of edge-of-care workers. Do they actually provide a great value of service and should they be more sought after in local authorities and protected, perhaps?

From my experience, within the research, we have seen really positive examples of edge-of-care services, which often form part of the spectrum of statutory services and do that preventative work with the aim of avoiding concerns being escalated. So, yes, absolutely. In response to social workers sometimes being distant, case loads—. I teach social workers, I know the experiences on placements, and the challenges facing social workers at the moment are enormous, with increased demand and a depleted workforce. So, I think social workers would like to do more if they had the opportunity as well. But, yes, in terms of edge-of-care services, I have seen really positive feedback in terms of that support.

Diolch. Thank you, and thanks, Chair.

Thank you, James. We have got—. I did say we could go over a little bit on time on this, so a final opportunity if you'd like to say one last thing. You don't have to.

Well, for me, I just want to see, like I said, all parents being given the chance. I was lucky that the judge sat in gave me a chance five years ago. I'm now parenting a six-year-old, who is teaching me every day why parenting is so amazing. Yes, we have our battles—he wants to be on Minecraft at seven o'clock and he's got to go to bed—but I love being a parent. I always get asked by mums over the school, 'God, don't you ever get tired?' and I'm like, 'No, I love doing the mundane things of parenting; I take every pride in doing those things.' And I always think that if I hadn't been given that chance by that judge—and he believed in me—I wouldn't have been able to be a parent, and I just want all parents to be given that belief and to be able to parent, and not automatically for children to go into care. I always think that if I could turn one thing around and say to my children, 'I've made you proud', this is one thing I'd want to see happen. Because we can be parents. Just because we haven't been parented—. But then, also, my question to local authorities would be, 'You often say in court that we didn't have very good parenting. So, therefore, you failed as a local authority, you failed as parents, but then, as a care leaver or person in care, we're told that we're going to fail because of their parenting. Is it fair?' And that's all I would end on.

Thank you.

And I'm not going to follow that. What a perfect way to end.

I would agree. And thank you for that. Jennifer, I apologise, I think I pronounced your surname wrong at the start. So, it's 'Molloy'.

Yes.

So, 'Jennifer Molloy' for the record. I do apologise. But, Jen, I'm just reading, again, your letter at the end of the book and you say towards the end—and I'm quoting here, I hope you don't mind—

'I hope through sharing my experience and being involved in this research, I can help bring about a different experience for others.'

And then you go on to say, and finish with this,

'I hope this is the start of something better.'

Well, I certainly think this is the start of something better and what you're doing today and what you have done is really, really great and you should be proud and your children should be proud. It's quite a privilege in this committee, to chair this committee, and Members will agree, sometimes we meet inspirational people and you are certainly one of them.

So, thank you for your time today, Jen, thank you. And Louise, thank you, as well, for your evidence. We will finish there. There will be a transcript sent, so please check over that and, if there are any inaccuracies, then please let the clerking team know. Also, if there is something that you've thought later on, in the middle of the night, 'I should have said this', then feel free to get in touch and we can certainly take that into consideration. But we'll end the first session here. We will go into private just for two minutes or so while we swap witnesses. But diolch yn fawr iawn. Thank you very much. It's been great, thank you.

Thank you.

Okay. Can I welcome everybody back to the second evidence session of today in the Senedd Petitions Committee? I must say that was a moving first session, one of the best scrutiny sessions I've ever been in in the Senedd, and I'm sure that's the same for other Members and other officials in the building today. So, we look forward to following this up with the second panel today. Again, I thank you all for joining us and coming down to the Senedd to speak to us on this important petition this afternoon. It is a bilingual session, so questions can be asked or answered in Welsh or English, and, of course, you've got the translation service in front of you there. Can I ask you therefore to introduce yourselves for the record, then, please?

Hello, everybody. I'm Daljit Morris, and I'm the operations manager at the National Youth Advocacy Service Cymru.

Prynhawn da. I'm Sharon Lovell, and I'm the CEO of NYAS Cymru.

Hi. I'm Liz Baker, I'm an assistant director of children's services for Barnardo's.

Prynhawn da. I'm Mark Carter, I'm also an assistant director for children's services for Barnardo's.

Brilliant. Thank you for that. And we have got questions from Members, on which I will start. So, can I ask you, therefore, to what extent are care-experienced parents at more risk of having compulsory interventions from children's services and removal of a child, either temporarily or permanently, and is there any evidence that they are treated differently by service providers and professionals? I can see Mark tempted to come in first.

Yes, I'm happy to start. From our point of view, with our Baby and Me service in Newport, something that we see is that the care-experienced young people and care leavers who become pregnant, they are certainly disproportionately represented within our referrals that we receive—it's just under half of our referrals. And then two thirds of our referrals are recurrent care proceedings, where families have had previous children removed. Really, I think what we find with care-experienced young people is that the range of difficulties, complexities and trauma that they've experienced throughout their childhoods isn't necessarily taken into consideration. Systemically, there are some real difficulties there.

In terms of to what extent are they treated differently by other services, I think, from what we have seen, care-experienced young people aren't necessarily discriminated against. However, there is recognition, when the families come into Baby and Me, through referrals in from midwives, from health, substance misuse agencies into the child protection arena, that, actually, there is a huge amount of complexity and risk that exists here, so that different level of treatment in terms of that risk assessment, I think, certainly warrants an intervention to make sure that we're able to undertake that bespoke intensive package of support that is required, as well as being able to undertake a health-informed—and social work—assessment to be able to give the local authority and the judiciary the most informed information that they can possibly have to be able to make the correct decision for that baby, for that care-experienced young person and their family.

Thank you for that. Before I can, perhaps, bring NYAS in—Daljit or Sharon—to comment on it, do you think these types of services and those who make the decisions behind them, the process, should perhaps be shifted to a more trauma-informed approach? 

Without a doubt.

I've been working on the trauma-informed framework that's currently being developed at the expert panel in Wales, and I think that's the consideration, really—the recognition that these young people have experienced adverse childhood experiences, repeat trauma and that the response they get from professionals sometimes does not take this into account adequately. They're judged upon their behaviours or their inability to respond in an appropriate way to the request of professionals in quite a judgmental way. Rather than acknowledging those young people's experiences, there are expectations and a deficit model is applied to them. There are expectations given to them, and if they don't meet them, then they've failed, rather than a strengths-based model, which should take into account their experiences and recognise that, actually, their chronological age and their developmental age will actually be two different things, and that'll mean that their responses are different, because of the trauma they've experienced. We know now that the science is there with regard to child development and brain development, and that the difficulties of not having a secure base, attachment and attunement with parents really impact upon a child's development and then their ability to regulate and see the consequences of their behaviour. It's just a system that recognises that systemically and holistically for these young people, and shapes around them and their needs, rather than expecting them to behave in a certain way when it comes to their experiences or their parenting.

Thank you for that. If there is time, perhaps, later on, I might delve a little bit more into the detail of that. Daljit or Sharon, is there anything you'd like to add? 

Yes. Thank you. NYAS provides statutory advocacy for children and young people who are care experienced, and it was really the result of an increase in advocacy cases where we were supporting young women, in particular, who were care experienced and pregnant, and we could see the increase in cases where young women who were pregnant needed our intervention, often too late, when their child had been removed from their care. So, two years ago, with a grant from the Welsh Government, through the social services sustainability grant, we established a project called Unity. This works exclusively with young women who are care experienced or who have left care in Wales, and their children are either at risk of being on the child protection register or involved in care proceedings. What I can say is that, since April 2000, we have worked with 108 young women whose children have all been subjected to child protection proceedings. I think that evidence alone suggests that the children who are born to care-experienced young women are stigmatised much more than non-care-experienced young people. To quote a young woman in particular, she said, 'Our bodies become the responsibility of social services.' I think there is something critical here that we need to examine where young women who are the responsibility of the local authority through corporate parenting are feeling that when they become pregnant their children are automatically placed on child protection proceedings. So, I hope that helps in terms of the factual data of evidencing the casework that we've been providing to date and how children who are maybe not born or who have been born are then subjected to child protection proceedings.

Daljit, very briefly, do you have anything to add?

No, I think Sharon said it all. I think it was just to point out that it was April 2020.

Okay. Brilliant. Thank you. Over to Buffy Williams. 

Thank you, Chair. Thank you all for joining us this afternoon. My question is: from the experiences of the young people you work with, what are the biggest challenges care-experienced parents face, and what then leads them to having a child removed?

Who would like to come in?

I'm happy to, if you want me to start. I suppose for us in Project Unity at NYAS Cymru, we've seen many of the young women that we've worked with facing enormous difficulties, particularly around housing. It's been a huge challenge for them just to try and fight to get accommodation, and I think seeing many of them suffering with just inequalities that they're facing with discrimination about having housing awarded to them, given the fact that they're pregnant as well. Just to give you an example, we had a 21-year-old in her own flat who was moved to a mother and baby foster placement following the birth of her baby, and she wasn't sure that her flat would be safe, and after two weeks, the flat was cleared and all her belongings were moved and she was told that she had to leave and vacate the room. Her baby and her were immediately put at risk, so our staff members were able to support at that moment of need. It is really challenging. Also, a lack of friend and family support networks. Many of these young women are facing difficulties amongst a broken family or communication channels are broken amongst their families, so it's been really tough for us to try and support them in that moment of need. A huge thing for us is relationships, and especially trying to encourage them to have positive relationships with their partners or their family members. Finally, just to touch upon financial issues, there's been a huge burden for us in supporting young women, especially during the pandemic, and ensuring that they're financially able to support their young babies as well. Thank you.

Any comment, Liz?

Yes, just touching again on what I was saying about the young people's experiences, and repeating again that I suppose it is about those young people not having the support networks and the experiences that enable them to move forward in their lives. Of course, that requires then a different approach with the young people that is flexible and adapted to their needs and responds to them in a timely way. I suppose what we see is a system, really, that isn't resourced enough to support them through those challenges. You have a personal adviser system, and all young people have a personal adviser being in care, but, actually, their case loads are too high and you haven't got a multidisciplinary response. These young people really need a mental health response a lot of the time as well. It tends to be very practically focused on housing, maybe benefits et cetera, but when you consider the trauma and challenges they've been through, they do often need some therapeutic support that isn't given to them, for them to be able to make sense of themselves and their world and their experiences. They're told, maybe through a parenting assessment, a court assessment, 'You haven't got a mental health problem, but you've got an attachment disorder.' Well, what does that mean to a young person and how that impacts upon their ability to parent? They don't understand, they can't make sense of that. The system really needs to enable them to understand their experiences and how they can then move forward. And it's not a criticism of professionals who work in the field—it's about the resources and time that people have within that system.

Thank you. Back to the Rhondda.

Thank you, Chair. Could you tell us about the main types of support you provide to care-experienced parents to prevent them being separated from their children? Are the interventions by statutory and voluntary services made early enough?

I'm happy to start, if that's okay. What we've been able to do through our Newport partnership with the local authority and Barnardo's, in partnership with health as well and other agencies in Newport, is to develop a service that provides bespoke, intensive packages of support to identified mothers, but also fathers. We work with the whole family to really be able to, first of all, identify what issues exist there, recognising that, for care-experienced young people, the multitude of trauma that they've faced throughout their lives hasn't necessarily been dealt with effectively. We provide these intensive, bespoke packages of trauma-informed support. We have a senior social worker who undertakes these assessments, because something that we find, and I think it was alluded to in an earlier question, is in relation to that stigmatisation that can often occur. What we're able to do is to help the family to really evidence any change they've been able to make. I think what that helps the local authority do is to justify any decision making that may perhaps go against, perhaps, the norm. We've had families where they've had five children removed, for example, and what we've been able to do then is to work with that family around their current circumstances to then support them, wherever that support may be needed, working with a multitude of agencies as well.

A key factor as well is the support networks that have been alluded to. We provide family group conferences or, specifically for care leavers, lifelong links meetings. In Newport, we were able to obtain some Welsh Government funding last year to help us set that up, and that's really about putting that care-experienced young person at the heart of a meeting that brings together their family members, their previous social workers, residential workers, foster carers, and it's giving them that support network that so many care-experienced young people do not have when they leave the care system. It's something that so many of us, perhaps those of us who are parents—. We know that that support network around us is absolutely integral to us being able to make sure that we're able to manage, certainly when we have our first child. Having that support network is so important, and I think we've really seen that intervening early, by working with health to help the midwives and radiographers to have some of those more difficult conversations at the 12-week scan, so they can then discuss perhaps there about any issues that might exist for that family. Then, that can be referred through to social services so we can then pick that up in Baby and Me, and then start that support as soon as possible, because you need as much time as you possibly can to help them to make those changes, but also to be able to evidence that change as well.

I suppose just to echo what Mark was saying there, with Project Unity, our main thing is to offer a holistic, wraparound service provision that we offer. One-to-one support is integral to all the young women that we support and work with, and the types of support that we provide are practical—so, for instance, attending appointments with the young women, whether those be for medical appointments—. To give you an example, there was a young girl who was 14 years old who had to be rushed into hospital, accident and emergency, and she had no-one, so she tried to call on her worker, who attended, and unfortunately for her, it resulted in a stillbirth, and there was no-one there for her. She had to have the support of our worker, and sadly for her, her placement of mother and baby was taken away at that moment as well, so she was technically homeless. So, it's just critical that support services like ours and Barnardo's are available for these young women.

Then we also try and provide welfare and well-being support, whether that be just at the end of the phone, and to encourage the young women to create a support network for themselves. So, through these means, we've set up our own peer cafe support where other like-minded young women can support other young women going through these same issues that they've faced, and be there as a peer support network for them.

Another final thing is that we're there to provide even for interventions, so, like we were talking about with regard to whether it would be mental health support, we can provide that through our other channels of work that we do at NYAS Cymru. So, it is just a case of being there for the young women at their moment of need.

We heard in the last session, I think, that peer support was particularly—and I can see nodding from all witnesses there in agreement. James—. Oh, Liz, sorry. Yes.

Could I just mention Reflect? Because I would specifically mention, Reflect. So, Reflect is funded by Welsh Government, and basically works with women who have had one or more children removed, so you're working with women who've already been through that experience and that loss and grief. But often enough, as indicated, when that happens, the woman is then often left with no support. So, the support was all around the child and the support was withdrawn, and these women always tend to fall through the gap, basically. So, there are implications, obviously, with regard to the support that they receive—benefits, housing—which have very much been structured around them as a family, and there's a huge amount of stigma that these women face when they've had a child removed, because obviously they're seen as being unfit mothers, and there are implications for them in regard to their mental health as well. So, Reflect works with those women, and basically it's non-prescriptive support, practical advice, but a lot of emotional support.

And also in regard to the experience of trauma, I suppose what's important to say about adverse childhood experiences and trauma is that people can build resilience and come through it, so it doesn't determine your future and you can have a chance and the opportunity, with support, to change that future. Reflect works with women in that way, to enable them to make sense of their experiences, grow their own sense of identity and purpose in their lives.

I don't know if that's what Louise talked about, but peer support—. So, what we found is that it's very much co-produced, the Reflect service by Barnardo's, and the women were basically telling us they wanted more time with other women who'd had those experiences, so we do a lot of group work that's focused on their well-being and mental health, but it's very much led by them, because it's a safe place for them. They feel they're not being judged, there isn't this stigma, and they can slowly build their confidence up so that when they are ready to access mainstream training and services, then they feel that they've gained a sense of identity through that support.

Thank you. We have about 12 minutes or so left, and plenty of stuff to go through, so I'm going to ask for questions and answers to be as concise as possible, but not too strict on that. James Evans.

What evidence is there that the interventions you provide have been successful, and how do you monitor the outcomes? To anyone who wants to answer.

We'll come to Sharon first, and then we'll bring in—

Thank you very much for that question. I think evidence and outcomes have to be critical when you're given quite significant funding from Welsh Government to undertake pieces of intervention. What I can say from our Project Unity work, where we're providing that intensive early intervention to young women with the sole aim of trying to prevent any child from entering the care system themselves, that is our priority. I think there will always be occasions, quite rightly, when children will have to come into the care system, but what we are trying to do with Project Unity is to prevent that. What I can say is, from the 108 cases that we've worked with, 50 per cent have not gone on to be on the child protection register as a result of our intervention, which I think shows and evidences the effect of the work that we've been achieving at NYAS Cymru through Project Unity.

What we do is provide distance travelled evaluations. So, we work with the young women before intervention to see how they're feeling, how much they know about their rights and entitlements, how well they know the legal system, how well they know the processes that they're subjected to, and we do the same evaluation at the end of the intervention to compare and contrast. And we have worked very closely with Dr Louise Roberts, who I believe has also provided evidence. She has met with many of the young women that we are supporting to assist her in her research, in her further advancements. But, from our perspective with Project Unity, we know that we are making a fundamental difference to the lives of young women and their children to prevent them from also entering the care system, through our intensive advocacy intervention to uphold their rights and entitlements. 

Thank you. And from Barnardo's.

Yes, so, in our Baby and Me service, we've worked with the 'Born into Care' research from the Nuffield Family Justice Observatory, by Professor Karen Broadhurst and Claire Mason, and we've been able to develop a range of monitoring tools that have helped us to evidence things like well-being. But, in terms of raw statistics, really, out of the 80 families that we supported up to the end of last year, over 61 per cent of those babies have gone home. In Newport, in the two years prior to Baby and Me, up to 2019, there were 42 babies that had gone into care. And then in the two years prior—no, sorry, in the two years after that, there were 22 babies. So, there has been a 48 per cent reduction in the number of babies that have come into care. 

In terms of care-experienced young people, it's over a third of those cases that are care-experienced young people, and we've also seen it—. So, we've seen that reduction in separation at birth, but we've also seen, importantly, through our Newport partnership, better relationships with the social workers, we've seen support for parent and child placements also increase, where they're available, and we're seeing less time on the child protection register. Of all the babies that have gone home with their families, only three have escalated afterwards and ended up in care. But, of all of the babies that remain with their families, 100 per cent of those cases have been removed from the child protection register by their first birthday.

Thank you. James. 

Diolch, Cadeirydd. I've got something I'd like to come back on, but I won't in the interests of time. I've got another question. The Children's Commissioner for Wales told the committee that finding suitable placements is often challenging, resulting in the young parents and their babies being placed far away from any support networks. She also told the committee that parents can become caught between their own support needs and the need to provide their parenting skills in unfamiliar surroundings, often whilst under intense scrutiny and assessment. Is this a picture that you recognise across Wales, and can you provide some anonymous examples that illustrate these challenges? Diolch, Chair.

I can absolutely provide an example of that, unfortunately, where we supported a young person, a care-experienced young person. It was their second child; their first child they'd lost care of. So, the baby was born into care, before their seventeenth birthday. We supported them, they engaged well, everything was in line, and a parent and child placement was supported by their local authority. It was great news, however, they weren't able to find one until the very last minute. What that meant was that this mother was not able to have that planning time and that preparation to be able to go into that placement successfully. And I think something that hadn't been considered, moving back to that trauma element for care-experienced young people, was that straight after she had the baby, she was taken way out of the county where all of her support network was. So, all of her support network is in Newport, and she had to go further towards Swansea to get that parent and child placement. I think something that hadn't been considered or factored in was the fact that this mum had—. Throughout her childhood, the only time she'd ever been on the motorway and travelled anywhere was when she was leaving Newport to go from foster placement to foster placement, and it caused a huge amount of emotional distress to her. And, unfortunately, four days after moving to that placement, she became so emotionally dysregulated that, unfortunately, that placement broke down and she left the baby in the placement, and she couldn't manage; she had to get back to her support network. So, it's an extremely sad case, but I think it's representative of, perhaps, the picture that there's just not enough supportive parent and child foster placements that meet the needs.

And again, I think it goes to show the importance of this evidence session and, certainly, the petition. I won't come to NYAS, but can I suggest perhaps if there is a particular one, you could write in to us, just for time reasons? That would be really helpful for the committee. Luke Fletcher. 

Diolch, Gadeirydd. In its programme for government, the Welsh Government has said it is going to

'Explore radical reform of current services for children looked after and care leavers.'

Is this something that you have been asked to be involved with? I'll start with Sharon.

Yes. Diolch yn fawr iawn, Luke. I'm really encouraged to see the new programme for government, and especially the proposal to radically reform children's social care in Wales, with the promise of having advocacy support for all parents. What we have in NYAS Cymru is parental advocacy for older parents, not just those who are care experienced, and with the project I've described today, Project Unity, that is grant funded. What we suggest to Welsh Government is to align both of those projects for parent advocacy and Project Unity. 

I sit on the oversight board with senior officials in Welsh Government to look at the implementation of the programme for government, which is part of the radicalisation of children's social care. And I think this is a real opportunity to actually change the way we do some services in Wales. I think corporate parenting is a huge area that we have to get right for children and young people who are care experienced. We know there are many plans to extend the age to 25 for those care-experienced young people to have legislative rights and entitlements, along with the opportunity there for shared responsibility of corporate parenting, not just to rest with social services, but in other policy areas like housing, health, education, youth services, leisure, transport—everybody having a responsibility to be a shared parent for care-experienced young people. So, I'm really encouraged by the programme for government in the next Senedd term, and NYAS Cymru will be definitely part of those plans for implementation.

Thank you. Before we move on, can I just take a short technical break, just to check that Zoom is still working, if that's okay?

So, welcome back again to the Senedd Petitions Committee. Sorry to those viewers waiting in anticipation on our thrilling session once again—we had some technical difficulties, but we should be back now. Luke, do you want to repeat your question where we left off?

Yes. Diolch, Cadeirydd—. Sorry, I was just waiting for the mic to come back on then. In its programme for government, Welsh Government has said it is going to explore radical reform of current services for children who are looked after and care leavers. Is this something you've been asked to be involved in?

Yes, absolutely, Luke. Thank you for the question. NYAS Cymru have been involved in the oversight board, which has recently been established to implement the programme of government and the radical reform for children's services. I'm really encouraged by this piece of work. I'm also really encouraged to know that Welsh Government are going to invest in parent advocacy for young women whose children are at risk of entering the care system. So, I think the programme for government is really encouraging. I'm particularly pleased to know that there will be an extension of corporate parenting duties up to the age of 25. At the moment, we know the legislation is supporting young people up to the age of 21, and I think there has to be more of a shared responsibility of what parenting looks like, and that responsibility doesn't just rest with social services, but we have a shared approach across housing, across education and health, our leisure, our transport, our youth services, so that everybody feels that they have a responsibility for children and young people, and what I want to see is that young people's voices are heard and listened to and acted upon in any plans of radicalisation of the social care system. But, yes, we're involved, and, yes, I'm really encouraged to see the programme of government. Thank you.

Thanks. Thanks, Sharon, and same question to Barnardo's.

Yes, if I could just add that Barnardo's are involved. So, our director for Cymru and the south-west, Sarah Crawley, sits on the ministerial board as well. And, obviously, we would be—. Because of our involvement with children and young people throughout their experiences of family support in care, after care, and looked-after children who are then at risk of having their own children removed, and reflect when they have, we'd obviously be advocating for those young people at all stages in their journey to get an opportunity to share their experiences and their insights and co-produce those services with Welsh Government, as we are aiming to do. So, with the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 and our well-being legislation, they do need to be at the heart of that reform and design.

Thank you for that. I'd be interested to know how you see a review like this—how should it be carried out and who else should be involved as well. Perhaps Liz would like to pick up that point. 

Yes. Well, as I've said, it is about the young people and their experiences, but parents as well, who have been through those systems, but very much in regards to taking a multi-agency disciplinary perspective, because it is the responsibility of everybody who has contact with children who are looked after to consider their approaches and how their organisations can contribute to that support. So, it does need to be done across sector—statutory, third sector, education and health. And as I said earlier on about that multi-agency response, it is about looking at that young person's life experiences holistically and systemically in order to ensure that they get support wherever they come into contact. So, there's no wrong door in regards to what we're aiming to do with mental health in Wales, but that should be the case for their experiences throughout their life journey. 

Thank you. Sharon. 

Can I add something, Luke, if I may? I think we need to be really clear, collectively, what we mean by radical reform. And this gives us an opportunity, in the lens of young women and young people who become pregnant who are care experienced, or become parents. How would we want to respond to that if we became parents or supported our own children who become parents? Would we want to subject them to very corporate, formal meetings with health and education? We say, 'You're now subject to assessment. Your unborn children are going to be subjected to child protection.' That is a very formal, institutional framework to which we subject care-experienced young women. This is an opportunity for us to see can we change the system to which young people are subjected. We need to change our language. We need to change our culture. We need to ensure that the power imbalance between young people and adults is addressed, and this really gives us an opportunity to do that in this space. 

I hope you don't mind me saying, but I feel it's an opportunity to add a bit of humanity to this—

Absolutely. 

—which, from our previous session, it seems is somewhat lacking. But, no, thank you very much for your comments. Unless anyone has anything they wish to add, I'll hand back to you, Cadeirydd. 

Thank you, Luke. Okay, we're coming up to the end of this session, but one final question from me to each of you, and I think we'll start with Mark on my right-hand side, and we'll go right to left. One policy recommendation that this committee could make to Welsh Government—what would it be?

Well, to make one, I think it's recognition of the, often, isolation that so many care-experienced young people face, and care-experienced young parents face, in their communities. I would support and recommend consideration around family group conferences and lifelong links meetings to be implemented across Wales. We've seen huge success with that in our Newport partnership, with 88 per cent of the families who had a family group conference prior to the birth of their baby then being able to go home with their baby and live within their communities. And from the lifelong links meetings for care leavers, it's recognising how isolated they are, and I think—you said about bringing humanity back into it—it's really enabled that for so many young people that we've encountered. 

To give an example, there was a young person who we supported with a lifelong links meeting, we increased their support network from four people to 12 people, but also we were able to help organise the first birthday party they'd had since they were four years old, when they went into care. So, I think that demonstrates that there are perhaps some systemic issues here that need to be addressed. I genuinely think that, local authorities, there's an appetite to really look at the situation differently. But I think, from a family group conference perspective, you can really bring that team around the care leaver, really, who are often so isolated in communities. Thank you.

Thank you, Mark. Liz.

Yes, I suppose, touching on the discussion we had about ACEs and being trauma-informed, it is about a system that recognises those needs and the young people and responds in a trauma-informed way. So, we said about being more human—it is about being relationship-focused, strengths-based, inclusive and person-centred for those young people, but in a way where those professionals connect around that young person in a relational approach so they don't have to—. Your policies basically link up the responsibilities of those agencies to support those children and young people in a trauma-informed way, and the services come to the young person, and the young person is able to access them in a timely manner, and, I suppose, prioritising the support that they recognise they need, rather than them being fitted into a system that expects them to change their behaviours, when they haven't got the secure base to be able to do that.

Thank you. Sharon.

I would like us to look at the assessments, because why should any young woman who's care-experienced who becomes pregnant automatically be subjected to child protection procedures for their unborn or their children to be? So, my request would be we need to look at why is that the case, is it happening automatically for young women, and, if so, I would suggest that is around stigmatisation and that needs to change. So, I would like to have more data, more evidence, on what that looks like in order to change the culture and the processes young women are currently subjected to. Thank you.

Thank you. And finally, Daljit.

Thank you. For me, I think it would be, to choose from a number, to address the diverse inequalities faced by the young women who are care-experienced and mainly linking it to financial support, looking at the new basic income that's coming into action for these young women. We want to try and understand will this impact their other benefits that they receive and are currently in receipt of, and we need to understand that to be able to share that with the young women we support.

Thank you. That's an excellent point to finish on, as we, I think, will be discussing that slightly later today in an area that the Petitions Committee did some great work on. But can I thank you all for attending? Apologies for the technical difficulties. But, again, there will be a transcript sent to you. Can you check that for factual accuracy, and send back any comments on that? And of course, if there are things that you think you may have missed, please feel free to forward them to the clerking team, and we might do the same, and we'd be grateful for your response. Thank you—diolch yn fawr. Grateful for you joining us. We are going to move onto item 4. You're very welcome to stay, if you'd like to stay, but I appreciate we've kept you long enough already, so, diolch—thank you.

Okay, moving on to item 4 on today's agenda, new petitions. Item 4.1, P-06-1235, 'Ensure appropriate provision of services and support for people with Acquired Brain Injury in Wales':

'There is urgent need to review the provision of services and support for people with Acquired Brain Injury (ABI) in Wales.

'There are currently no inpatient rehabilitation services for people with ABI in North Wales, and there are just four inpatient beds for children and young people with ABI in Wales.

'Services need to be adequate and "fit for purpose".

'Now is the Time for Change.'

There is additional information in Members' packs, also available to members of the public. And this was submitted by Dr Claire Williams, with 443 signatures. I do ask committee members to discuss this petition and any actions they may wish to take, and I'll turn to Luke Fletcher first. 

Diolch, Cadeirydd. I was wondering if the committee could agree to write back to Welsh Government in the first instance, to seek a response to the concerns and questions that have been raised by the petitioner regarding the quality and breadth of services and support provision for people in Wales. But I'd also be interested in writing to Betsi Cadwaladr health board as well to request an update regarding the provision of acquired brain injury and neurorehabilitation services in north Wales specifically. 

Thank you for that suggestion, Luke, and I could see Members are in agreement with those suggestions. Diolch. Thank you. 

Item 4.2, P-06-1248, 'Change Standing Orders and admissibility criteria for petitions':

'Currently petitions that concern the operational decisions of local authorities are automatically rejected by the Petitions Committee in accordance with Standing Orders. Across Wales, Local Authorities are disregarding Welsh Assembly declarations, such as Climate Emergency and
Nature Emergency and making decisions which are in direct contravention of such declarations. Many farms are being lost whilst Councils seek to maximise their revenues by allowing additional building on greenbelt land.'

Again, there is additional information for Members and members of the public on this petition made available, submitted by Bryan Dredge, with 116 signatures. I will ask Members to look at this petition and discuss it and any actions they may wish to take, and we will go over to Brecon and Radnorshire, and James Evans. 

Diolch, Chair. I think, if Members were in agreement, that we could, as a committee, write to the Llywydd of the Senedd, who determines the proper form of public petitions submitted under our Standing Order 23, and we would seek her response to the petitioner on this matter. Diolch. 

Thank you for that, James. I could see all Members nodding in agreement, and I think, for the record, it should be said this committee considers petitions that have been accepted by the process and does not make the decision of admissibility. That is set under the Presiding Officer. So, we will do that, James, but I thought that should be clear for the record too. 

Item 4.3, P-06-1255, 'Ensure fathers/birth partners are involved in all assessments & care throughout the perinatal period': 

'The Covid-19 pandemic and resulting regulations have had a devastating impact on many fathers/partners who were not permitted at scans, assessments or sometimes even the baby’s birth. Many fathers missed the birth altogether whilst being left outside in car parks for several hours and even days. Fathers' experiences must be acknowledged and reviewed to inform future decision making and NHS guidance to ensure fathers/partners are treated fairly and not excluded in the future—even in a pandemic.'

Again, there is further information for Members to be aware of. This was submitted by Mark Williams, with 322 signatures. I bring in Buffy Williams to discuss this petition. 

Thank you, Chair. The pandemic was a dreadful time for all. I can't imagine what it must have been like to be in hospital as a new mum by myself giving birth, I just can't, so I understand the need for this petition. I welcome the fact that the Minister has noted that experiences of families, parents and fathers will help shape future policy in improving the safety and visiting of maternity and perinatal services. Also, positive action has been taken to address the petitioner's concerns, and I'm glad the petitioner will have the opportunity in the future to be involved in shaping and influencing the work that goes on. So, I'd like to close this petition now and thank the petitioner for the work. I know Mark does an incredible amount of work around perinatal mental health. So, I'd like to close this petition and send our thanks to Mark.   

Thank you, Buffy, and I can see Members are happy with that. Certainly, on behalf of the committee, we can thank Mark for all he does in the arena of perinatal mental health. Of course, I certainly know Mark as well from the work he's done, so I'm grateful to Mark for engaging with the committee on this occasion.

Item 4.4, P-06-1256, 'Hold a referendum on Wales becoming a Nation of sanctuary':

'With recent events in Afghanistan and Mark Drakeford reminding us all how the Welsh Government want Wales to be a Nation of Sanctuary, we truly believe that this should be a decision made by the Welsh people. We feel that as its the people of Wales who will be funding part of this through taxes, we have a right to decide if this is a decision that is right for the Welsh people. Hold a referendum on Wales being a nation of sanctuary.'

This was submitted by Daniel Morgan, with 1,170 signatures, and I would invite Members to discuss this petition and any potential actions. Luke Fletcher.

Diolch, Cadeirydd. I hope you don't mind, but I wanted to take the opportunity just to reiterate, hopefully, this committee's support and solidarity for the Ukrainian people at this time, and as well to acknowledge the flurry or the tidal wave of support that I know my office has had for wanting to take in some Ukrainian refugees. From talking with colleagues as well, it's very clear that their offices have had that same experience. I believe I'm right in thinking that the nation of sanctuary policy was open for consultation some time ago now, and during that consultation period it was quite widely supported. So, in this instance, I would like to recommend that the committee agrees to close this petition and, of course, thank the petitioner.

Thank you, Luke. I can see Members in agreement, and I could see enthusiastic nodding in support of what you said about Ukraine, and this committee does stand with the people of Ukraine, and we do call out what is an illegal war crime from Putin's regime.

Item 4.5, P-06-1257, 'Reduced Council Tax for private estate properties': 

'Councils should be required to reduce the council tax for the properties that are within "private" estates as all the maintenance costs for communal areas are paid by the homeowners, both leaseholders and freeholders.'

Again, there is additional information for Members and members of the public on this petition, and it was submitted by Mark Henson, with 578 signatures. I will bring Members in to discuss this petition and any actions, and I will go to James Evans.

Diolch, Chair. The Minister for Finance and Local Government wrote to state that there are commitments in the programme for government around this, to make sure that charges are done in a fair way, and that legislation will be coming forward. So, I think, as a committee, we could write back to the Minister asking for a proposed timeline for new legislation and when that's going to be brought forward, and further, whether local authorities have or could be given the powers to set up their own maintenance companies. I think that would be an appropriate way forward, Chair.

Diolch yn fawr, James. Again, I can see Members are in agreement with that.

So, moving on to 4.6 on today's agenda, P-06-1259, 'Ban the use of non biodegradable dog poo bags':

'Plastic dog waste bags last for centuries and have a large negative impact on the environment. Even when they eventually break down, they remain as toxic micro plastics, threatening wildlife and human health.'

This was submitted by Jason Dickinson, with 61 signatures. I will bring in Members to discuss this, going to Luke Fletcher.

Diolch, Cadeirydd. I seem to be not just the Member for South Wales West but quickly becoming the Member for dogs and dog-related matters. But, no, I understand the concerns raised by the petitioner. I think it is, unfortunately, not as straightforward as we would initially think. From what I gather, some of those compostable bags need certain conditions to begin breaking down in themselves. So, for the time being, I think we as a committee could accept the Welsh Government's approach to tackling this via the littering strategy, alongside Keep Wales Tidy and Caru Cymru, and thank the petitioner and close the petition.

Diolch yn fawr, Luke, and I can see Members agreeing with that suggestion—as we would, as you're the dog champion in this Senedd.

Item 4.7, P-06-1260, 'End the need for covid passes for all events and activities': 

'The use of passes needs to fall in line with the rest of the United Kingdom, to aid the financial recovery of smaller businesses and hospitality venues in Wales.'

Again, there is additional information made available, and this was submitted by Max McKeown. Apologies, Max, if I got your surname wrong there. It was submitted with 353 signatures, and I will bring Members in to discuss this petition before we move on to updates on previous petitions. Buffy Williams.

Thank you, Chair. From 18 February, COVID passes are no longer needed to enter—. Domestic COVID passes are no longer needed, so I think we should thank the petitioner and close the petition.

Thank you, Buffy. I can see Members are in agreement. I am, too.

Therefore, we'll move on to item 5 on today's agenda—updates to previous petitions. 

Item 5.1, P-06-1224, 'Design a "Care Leavers Plus" Universal Basic Income pilot that includes a range of people'. This was submitted by Jonathan Rhys Williams—who, for the record, I know well—with 1,051 signatures. Members will be aware that this is a petition that we took evidence on and reported on to the Government. The Government response has now been published online and Members have had the opportunity to read that. I can say that all recommendations by the committee have been either accepted or accepted in principle, which is a positive step forward for the committee. We set out as a committee at the start of the sixth Senedd to help shape Government policy, and I certainly think we've done this with this particular inquiry and this particular petition, so I can thank Members. I want to thank all the back-room staff as well, who have been the driving force, with research and the clerking team and so on. And, of course, I thank the petitioner for engaging with the process. At this point, I think we've done all we can, and it's up to individual Members now to keep the fight for a basic income, if they wish to see one. Of course, some Members will not, and it's also their right to fight for what they believe. So, I do want to congratulate the petitioner on this successful petition, and here's to many more in this Senedd term with the Petitions Committee. Are Members in agreement? Any other comments? No, okay. Brilliant. We will close that petition on that basis, then.

Moving on to 5.2 and 5.3. These petitions will be considered together. Item 5.2, P-05-1001, 'Hold an independent inquiry into the choice of site for the proposed new Velindre Cancer Centre', and 5.3, P-05-1018, 'Support for the current proposed plans to build a new Velindre Cancer Centre, Cardiff, in any future inquiry'. Item 5.2 gained 5,348 signatures, and 5.3 gained 11,392 signatures. As I set out in the titles, they both relate to the development of the new Velindre cancer centre. These petitions were both initially considered by our predecessor committee in September 2020, in the last Senedd, and most recently in February 2021. A Plenary debate addressing both petitions was held on 3 March 2021. Subsequently, the Senedd elections and various court proceedings have prevented us from returning to these petitions. Given the fact that we have already had a debate on some of these issues in the Siambr and that there have been further lengthy debates in the courts, we are probably, in my view, at the end of what can do here. I am aware, and Members will be aware, of the correspondence received just yesterday from one supporter of a petition, but I do still remain of the view that this is as far as the Senedd Petitions Committee can go with both of these petitions, and therefore, as Chair, I am proposing that we take the opportunity to close the petitions. I'm looking for agreement, and I can see agreement from Members. Okay. Thank you.

Moving on, then, to 5.4, P-05-937, 'STOP BOILING CRUSTACEANS ALIVE (lobsters, crabs, crayfish, prawns etc)'. This was submitted by Cardiff Animal Rights, with 2,008 signatures. I look to Members to discuss this petition, and we'll go to Buffy Williams in the Rhondda.

Thank you, Chair. I note that Welsh Government are already in discussions with the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs to include crustaceans in the definition of animals. So, I'd like to write to the Minister for an update on where Welsh Government are on this matter, if possible. So, if we could leave the petition open until we get some concrete evidence from Welsh Government to see if they are going to take this on board, that would be great.

Okay. Thank you, Buffy. I can see all Members are happy with that suggestion. 

Moving on to 5.5, the final petition of today, P-06-1217, 'Open Long Covid one stop medical hubs / clinics', submitted by Lawson Webb with 1,214 signatures. And I look to Members to discuss. Luke Fletcher.

Diolch, Cadeirydd. I think, from the offset, really, it's important that we note some of the difficulties that people with long COVID are facing. Some of them are actually close friends of mine who are still dealing with the after effects of COVID. Even though they had it right at the start of the pandemic, it's still something that they're grappling with at the moment. I'd hope the committee could agree that, whilst Welsh Government are delivering services that meet the needs of many people with long COVID, it is clear that this isn't appropriate for all, as already highlighted by the petitioner. So, I would hope that you wouldn't mind me suggesting that the Minister may find it valuable, actually, to meet with the petitioner and other patients to listen to some of their concerns and suggestions. I don't think this is a matter of having a one-size-fits-all solution; I think it's important, really, that we consider the different challenges that are facing those who are suffering with long COVID.

Diolch yn fawr, Luke. I can see Members are happy with that suggestion, and, through the format of the cross-party group on long COVID, which our colleagues Hefin David and Rhun ap Iorwerth chair jointly, that perhaps a way for the petitioner to engage in that. Okay. That does conclude today's public business. 

The committee will now go into private session to discuss the evidence—the powerful evidence—that we've heard today. So, I do propose, in accordance with Standing Order 17.42(ix), that the committee resolves to meet in private for item 7. I can see Members are content. They are.

Just to note, then, finally, that the committee will next meet on 25 April. Can I thank all Members, all witnesses, today? James Evans in particular, who subbed on today's committee—thank you; you're always welcome to our committee. And finally, can I thank the clerking team, the research team and everyone who does the hard work, and, in particular, the broadcasting and ICT teams, who've worked their socks off this afternoon and also through this morning's Senedd business? So, diolch yn fawr, and see you all soon. Thanks.