Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru

Welcome, all, to this Plenary session. Before we begin today, I want to set out a few points. This meeting will be held in hybrid format, with some Members in the Senedd Chamber and others joining by video-conference. All Members participating in proceedings of the Senedd, wherever they may be, will be treated equally. A Plenary meeting held using video-conference, in accordance with the Standing Orders of the Welsh Parliament, constitutes Senedd proceedings for the purposes of the Government of Wales Act 2006. Some of the provisions of Standing Order 34 will apply for today's Plenary meeting, and those are set out on your agenda. And I would remind Members that Standing Orders relating to order in Plenary meetings apply to this meeting, and apply equally to Members in the Chamber as to those joining virtually.

The first item this afternoon is the emergency question, which is to be asked to the First Minister, and it will be asked by Paul Davies.

The virus cases in Wales continue to rise, putting our NHS under intense and sustained strain, from a combination of pandemic and winter pressures. The conditions have been met in Wales to move to alert level 4, as set out in the document published—[Interruption.]

Sorry, First Minister. I think you can carry on.

Apologies, Llywydd. Conditions have been met in Wales to move to alert level 4, as set out in the document published on Monday of this week. We will introduce new tightened measures to protect people's health and to save lives.

Thank you for that response, First Minister. Of course, it's deeply regrettable that Wales is at the point where further nationwide restrictions will be implemented to combat the dramatic rise in COVID-19 cases across the country, and this will be a bitter blow for many people across Wales who have complied with Government restrictions all year long and now face further restrictions on their lives. However, the figures speak for themselves, and given that the R rate is now above 1.4 in Wales, and because the confirmed case rate has exceeded the threshold for alert level 4 in the coronavirus control plan, then I can very much understand the basis of the Welsh Government's decision.

Firstly, there will be many people who will understandably question perhaps the proportionality of these measures, particularly those people that live in areas like Gwynedd and Ynys Môn. So, can the First Minister confirm that these arrangements will be reviewed and that targeted restrictions will be brought forward for specific areas if the scientific evidence permits? Of course, at present, these measures will follow a period of relaxation in restrictions between 23 and 27 December, where people from Wales will be permitted to travel across the UK. And I know that the Welsh Government and the UK Government have been discussing the Christmas period over the past 24 hours, and I understand that a statement will be forthcoming in due course. But perhaps the First Minister could make it clear exactly what the arrangements are in relation to travel, both within Wales and, indeed, across other parts of the United Kingdom as well.

It's also crucial that there is adequate funding and resources in place to underpin the move to level 4 restrictions in Wales, so that people and businesses that need support can have access to it. We simply can't allow people and businesses to bear the brunt of these restrictions without Government support. And so, can he tell us what additional support has been earmarked for level 4 restrictions, and can he confirm that support will be made available urgently and not further down the line?

Now, support must be forthcoming for people who need it in terms of their mental health, and I seriously hope that the Welsh Government is prioritising mental health services and support to ensure that people will be supported throughout this period. Therefore, can the First Minister tell us more about the assistance that he will be making available during the alert level 4 period?

Whilst these restrictions are being introduced during a period where children and young people are not in school and in university settings, there will still be some concerns over what this announcement may mean for the start of the next academic term. And so, can the First Minister confirm what discussions are taking place with the education sector about the impact of level 4 restrictions? And can he confirm that he still intends to allow children and students to return to schools, colleges and universities in January?

The Welsh Government also has a duty to effectively communicate any precautionary measures to the people of Wales in order to instil public confidence and compliance with these new measures. And so, between now and 26 December, can he tell us what guidance and communication will be made by the Welsh Government, to ensure the people of Wales fully understand the new measures, how they can actually access support, and, crucially, why these restrictions are now being implemented in the first place?

And, finally, Llywydd, perhaps the First Minister could tell us how these restrictions will be evaluated alongside the vaccine deployment programme, as that will also have an important role in tackling the virus over the Christmas period. The people of Wales need hope, and the vaccine programme is an important part of reminding the people that there is light at the end of this very dark tunnel and we have to be positive about the progress being made on this front. Therefore, it's crucial that further detail is now provided on these matters, and I welcome any further updates that the First Minister is able to give in his response. Diolch, Llywydd. 

Llywydd, I thank the leader of the opposition both for his understanding of the conditions that have led to today's announcement and for the detailed questions that he has posed. It is our intention that these will be all-Wales restrictions, despite the fact that there is variation in the level of coronvirus in different parts of Wales. Coronavirus is rising in every part of our country, and we have an obligation to take the action that will protect all parts of our country, and that is why we will do this on an all-Wales basis. But, as Paul Davies acknowledged, the document published on Monday sets out a path through which, if some parts of Wales in a reliable and sustainable way demonstrated that they were in a different part of the spectrum to other parts of Wales, that can be recognised through different levels of restriction. We are not in that position here today. But I've given a commitment today that we will review the level 3, level 4 restrictions three weeks after they are introduced, and that will give us an opportunity to see whether that reliable, sustainable differentiation has been achieved. 

On travel arrangements, the travel arrangements for the five days of the Christmas period are not changing. The advice to people will be strengthened today in the joint statement that we will publish from all four Governments, urging people only to travel where necessary, and particularly not to travel from high-incidence to low-incidence areas, and I very much endorse that advice, which will be set out later in the afternoon.

As for funding, we will provide a further enhanced level of funding beyond the £340 million we have already announced. We will make details of that available before the end of this week. We will look to use, as much as possible, established means of getting help from the Welsh Government to the businesses who require it, because using established mechanisms means that we can do it most swiftly. And I reported to the Senedd yesterday that, in the package of measures originally announced when changes were made to hospitality, millions of pounds have already been put into the hands of businesses that are affected, and I'm very grateful indeed to our local authority colleagues for the help that they are providing in that. 

We rehearsed yesterday and the leader of the opposition made a number of important points about mental health, Llywydd. I won't repeat them here, other than to say that, in the balance of harm that lie behind all the decisions we make as a Government, the impact on people's mental health and well-being is always consciously part of the calculation that we make, and we go on doing that, and the services that we provide to help people with the impact of changes on their mental well-being will be there in the post-Christmas period.

There are discussions going on, of course, about the start of the next term of education. I discussed this matter myself with the education Minister yesterday, and she continues to be directly engaged with local education authorities, trade unions, parents and others. It remains a significant priority for the Welsh Government to make sure that children do not lose out on education, and that is how we will approach the start of the next school term.

Finally, to agree with what Paul Davies said about the importance of offering people some hope, even in these very difficult times, vaccination will continue as planned during the level 4 restriction period. We've had the first vaccination of care home residents happening in Wales today. Despite the very significant short-term challenges we face, the prospects into next year are different, and communicating that to our fellow citizens remains part of how we will help people to deal with the difficulties that we know are faced in individual lives by the circulation of the virus in Wales. 

We called yesterday for you, First Minister, to give urgent consideration to introducing tier 4 restrictions earlier than the twenty-eighth, if, as is clear, many areas in Wales are already at the level of severity that is set out in the document that you published. So, we welcome that. The obvious question is, given that many areas in Wales are already at that level of severity, why wait even until Christmas evening and the days following. Why not intervene earlier, particularly in those areas of the highest infection? In relation to some areas of Wales, for instance, in the north-west—I believe, there were no new cases in Ynys Môn yesterday—is there not a case still, given that you've conceded the principle of having a regionalised or localised approach as appropriate, why that regional approach shouldn't be also implemented earlier to reflect what does seem to be a different pattern in those parts of Wales? 

In relation to the Christmas relaxation, I welcome the new guidance from the Welsh Government, but isn't there a danger that if the guidance and the rules are not aligned, that could lead to mixed messaging and confusion? And I say that particularly given the very different message coming out of London and Westminster this afternoon, where the Prime Minister, in the last hour, has been on his feet saying that there was 'unanimous agreement' that the Christmas plans must still go ahead. And he's been characterising the leader of your party as the Christmas Grinch who would steal Christmas, and he's been the one defending it. He said some rather negative things about the Welsh Government's policy in relation to the firebreak as well at the same time. So, it seems to me that there is a danger, because of the mixed messaging, that people won't get the message that you're trying to get out that we're in a different situation in Wales, and, as a result of that, we can't relax the rules in the same way and, unless you change the rules, people might draw the wrong conclusion, First Minister. So, I'd like you particularly to address this point as to whether we need to change the rules in order to back up the clear guidance that you have now embraced. 

On a more general level, we've had a number of changes in Welsh Government policy in short order, haven't we, over the last six weeks? So, we had the firebreak. We believe we came out of the firebreak too abruptly. We said that at the time—that there should have been a kind of buffer phase of still higher restrictions. We went then to probably, actually, at the time, First Minister, one of the most liberal regimes in terms of rules anywhere in the UK for a period, then we moved into what some would have seen as a fairly rapid or draconian shift to higher restrictions. Now, we've had this announcement today. I think the Welsh Government has, relatively speaking—compared, certainly, to the UK Government—had high levels of approval, largely because of the consistency and the cautious, slow and steady approach that you've adopted for most of the pandemic. Do you think that that has been undone over the last few weeks? How can you rebuild that sense of a clear, consistent line so we don't have a chopping and changing approach, where we're going in and out of restrictions, and that is causing confusion and some degree of public fatigue, so that, where we're now moving, sadly, into a situation where we have to increase the level of restrictions again, we can see a clear and consistent path to driving the level of prevalence down and moving down the tiers, rather than having to move them up and down, as we've seen, unfortunately, over the last few weeks?

The leader of Plaid Cymru asked me, 'Why wait?' Well, because we are, as ever, balancing many different types of harm. Practically the only thing that we could do today that we are not doing until Christmas Eve is to close all non-essential retail. Of course, we have looked very carefully at whether we should do that now, but he will know that for so many firms in Wales, this trading period up to Christmas is the most important couple of weeks in the whole of the calendar year.

We are balancing harms to the economy, as we balance harms to health. We are balancing issues of equality as well; the poorer you are, the closer to Christmas you go out and buy things because you have to wait to know how much money you've got in your pocket to do that. We could close non-essential retail today and those people who are fortunate enough to have had money already, or who can easily buy things on-line, would find ways around it and those families who are already the most disadvantaged in Wales would find themselves further disadvantaged again. There are a series of different harms that you are forever having to balance. Our view is that the balance that we have struck, being clear that immediately after Christmas there will be significant new restrictions because of the health harms that we face, together with the things that we are doing in the period up to Christmas, strikes the best balance that we can find.

The leader of Plaid Cymru asked me why particularly did we not introduce those changes in areas of highest infection. Well, the answer is they simply wouldn't be effective. To close non-essential retail in some parts of Wales is no guarantee at all that people would not then make their way to other parts of Wales where shops are open. It simply would not be an effective measure to take and it would be a gesture without an impact. I don't think we want to be in that territory. Having asked me why I didn't do more in some areas, he asked me why I didn't do less in others, and the answer to that is that we continue to have strong advice that national measures—single messages conveyed everywhere in the clearest way we can—have the most opportunity to be observed and therefore to be effective. I will not offer a lower level of protection for some parts of Wales than others while I believe that that would save people's lives.

And while it is true that at the moment—at the moment—things are not as bad in Gwynedd and Ynys Môn as they were in those counties just a couple of weeks ago, and as bad as their neighbours find themselves, I do not feel that we have as yet a reliable pattern, and a pattern that gives us confidence, that those areas will continue to be at those lower levels into the future so that you would be prepared to offer them a lower level of protection. What has happened in London over the last few days has borne out everything that the Scientific Advisory Group for Emergencies has told us: that lower levels of protection simply lead to higher levels of infection in the future. I don't want to see that happen in any part of Wales. As I said to Paul Davies, however, if a genuine, reliable and sustainable pattern of differentiation were to establish itself, then the review period at the end of three weeks will allow us to attend to that, and the plan we published on Monday gives us a path to regional differentiation. We are not in that position today; it would not be in the interests of the communities that Adam Price pointed to.

Llywydd, I'm not responsible for the Prime Minister's unfortunate views, and there is no mixed message here in Wales. The message that I have been giving I repeat now: the position in Wales is so serious that over the Christmas period, only two households should think of coming together in the single extended household we already have. We will, for those five days, allow a single-person household to join with that extended household, but that is the full extent of household mixing that we should see here in Wales. We agreed in the four-nation meeting today a strengthened set of messages that will apply in every part of the United Kingdom. We also agreed that it was essential that we were still able to respond to the different patterns that we see across the four nations. I am fully signed up to the joint statement that we will make as four nations this afternoon, and I am fully signed up to the message that I have been giving throughout the last hour and a half that here in Wales, two households only should come together.

Adam Price points to the fact that we have had changing patterns of coronavirus here in Wales and that we've had to respond to them. I don't agree with him that most people in Wales would have regarded the terms on which we came out of our firebreak as liberal; only two households in Wales have been able to meet together, only four people have been able to meet together in any outdoor venue. Those are extraordinary restrictions on people's normal ability to meet with one another and they've been in place here in Wales ever since the firebreak ended. Of course, we are all having to calibrate our response to the changing pattern we see. It's only a week ago that the leader of Plaid Cymru was urging me to keep pubs open for longer and complaining that I wasn't allowing for alcohol to be served. Today, he recognises the different position that we are in in Wales. All of us are having to think about the response we make because the virus changes in front of us every day, and the impact it makes on our public services changes as well.

I thank the leader of Plaid Cymru for what he said about the document we published on Monday; it was intended to provide greater clarity for people about the pathways that exist between the different levels of intervention we need here in Wales. We have had to say today that the detail that that document provides on level 4 restrictions will come into place in Wales immediately after Christmas, but it also sets out for people how things can be different in the future. When conditions allow, we will move from those very severe restrictions and necessary restrictions in the post-Christmas period to a different future, and in doing so, I believe we will continue to have the solid support of the vast majority of people here in Wales.

Can I say I fully support the decisions of the First Minister? But we are moving into the most dangerous seven days of the year: office party time. What is the Welsh Government doing to try and stop these parties taking place? Some will have food, some will have drinks, some will take place in the office, but these office parties—we've got to try and stop them happening. Whilst families meeting have a short chain, office parties—followed by returning home, possibly via public transport—have an elongated series of chains.

Mike Hedges makes a very important point, which I'm very keen to reinforce. Of course we are not in a period where large numbers of people coming together to mix in any circumstances ought to be contemplated with anybody prepared to take their responsibilities seriously. And in a workplace setting, not only will there be individuals who ought to take that responsibility, but there will be people in charge of those settings bound by the regulations we have here in Wales that, in the workplace, all necessary measures must be taken to protect against the danger that coronavirus provides. So, let me be clear: it would be entirely against those regulations, and entirely in breach of the responsibility of those people who are in charge of office settings, if office parties of the sort that Mike Hedges described were to take place. In other settings, in hospitality settings, then of course the restrictions we have already put in place would deal with that, because no more than four people are able to come together in such settings from four different households. So, I do hope that nobody thinks that this is an opportunity to try to stretch, bend or break those rules, and that no setting thinks that this is the moment in which they should connive in that sort of activity. The position in Wales is far beyond the point where anybody should believe that that would be something sane or defensible to do.

I rise to speak, obviously, in support of the First Minister. My overriding reaction to today's announcement is relief. We look at the numbers, and we listen to the health officials and the front-line NHS staff, just in my own region, and the situation is in extreme danger of spiralling out of control. They're not my words, of course; those are the words of those people who had to make those very difficult decisions. You, First Minister, and your Cabinet, have equally had to make some very difficult decisions, and I commend you for doing that. Nobody wants to stand up and say to other people, 'You can't do what it is you want to do'. But you have to also take note of those people who we've all heard on the radio, on the tv, on Twitter—those health professionals asking us to take action. And we can't ignore that. I hope that everybody who speaks today—and I'm really pleased that those who have spoken so far do—reflects that situation, and the seriousness of it, and the unsustainable pressure that is arising on our NHS staff. We are, of course, we all know, in the winter months, and normally there are areas of pressure, but if you add in COVID-19 figures to that, then I think it's pretty obvious to anybody that understands those figures that urgent action had to be taken—

You need to come to a question now, Joyce Watson, please.

There is light at the end of the tunnel—what has been and remains a very dark tunnel—and I'm really pleased to hear what you've said. But I have one request today, First Minister. I ask if you'll send out a message to people about supermarket workers. We've all seen the fact that they have suffered this year, more than any other year, abuse in the shops, so will you please join with me in asking people, as they rush to buy food, that they pay respect to those supermarket and shop workers who will be working to serve them so that they get what they need and what they want?

Can I thank Joyce Watson for what she has said? One of the prime reasons why the Cabinet decided to bring forward this announcement to today was to make sure that people who work at the front line of our health and social care services knew that their Government was taking action on their behalf. We have been assessing this over a number of days, so we know that we were preparing for this moment, but there is no reason why they should know that, and that sense of relief that Joyce Watson referred to I think will be shared by those people who now know that actions are being taken in Wales, that we are not shying away from them, that we will not do what is sometimes the easy thing in avoiding the difficult messages Governments have to share.

So, I think we will be reinforcing the best instincts of people in Wales, because most people in Wales want to do the right thing. They want to make their contribution. They want to know that their Government is providing the context that allows them to play their part in this great national effort, and the reason for making this decision and announcing it today was to attend to the views of our front-line workers, but to give our fellow citizens the time they need in order to make the preparation for the changes that they will now have to abide by.

That will undoubtedly place even greater pressure on those people who throughout this pandemic have turned up to work every day in our supermarkets, putting themselves in harm's way in order to make sure that the rest of us are able to go out and get the food we need, even at the point of the greatest restrictions on other parts of our lives. Let me say this afternoon, Llywydd: I look to the supermarkets themselves to make sure that they take every action to protect those spaces as places where public health needs to be observed, and to protect their staff in the work that they do.

I look to the supermarkets to make sure that they set maximum limits for the number of people who should be inside a supermarket at any one time; that they police that carefully at the front door, that when they have one-way systems in their stores that those one-way systems are there to be observed, not simply to be put on the floor; that they provide advice regularly to people over the tannoy so that people understand what is expected of them; that when people come to queue to leave the supermarket and to pay for their goods, that that is done in a way that respects the public health crisis we are in, and respects the workers who are there to help the rest of us.

So, I am absolutely happy to send that message that Joyce Watson asked me to. Those people go into work every day so that the rest of us are able to go and buy the things, those necessities of life, and their contribution should be celebrated and it should be respected as well. 

I thank the First Minister for what he's had to say; it's obviously a very difficult time for everybody. I've got some very specific questions I'd like to ask. First of all, First Minister, how will this affect hotels, many of which have taken bookings for the period twenty-third to the twenty-seventh? They assumed they were safe to do that. If hospitality is closing down completely on Christmas Day, how does that affect those hotels? They need to know now, First Minister, because if they must cancel bookings, then they must do that straight away. 

There will be some businesses, First Minister, for whom this opening and shutting and opening and shutting isn't sustainable. We have spoken to your Government before about the need, potentially, for long-term support to enable some businesses to hibernate into the next spring period. I know you'll be very well aware of the costs to businesses of opening and shutting, particularly of hospitality businesses. Can Government give further consideration to how that medium-term support for those businesses that might prefer to hibernate, rather than open and shut, might be provided?

When does he think he might be able to give any idea to those businesses who do want to reopen of what that kind of timescale might be? I do appreciate, First Minister, that it's all down to how the virus behaves and we can't predict that, but it is difficult for businesses if they don't know whether they're looking at reopening in mid January, no consideration of that being possible until the end of January. Can he give them any other guidance? 

And finally, with regard to what he said today about only two households meeting in Wales for Christmas, can he just clarify for us—is that advice from the Welsh Government now, is that guidance, or will that be law? Because I think, as you said, First Minister, in response to a number of people already today, it's really important that people understand what's required of them. He'll forgive me, I'm sure, but I'm not sure in my own mind by what you've said so far, if we're talking here about advice, strongly-worded advice, guidance, which is more formal but if you break it, you're not breaking the law, or an actual legal requirement. 

Llywydd, on that final point from Helen Mary Jones, I'll make a final decision on that matter when the statement between the four nations is agreed and published. It provides the context within which that decision must be made. I think it is possible to overstate the significance of the decision. Most of our fellow citizens do not pore over the distinction between guidance and regulation. They want to know what the right thing is to do. And here is the right thing to do: in Wales, two households only should meet over Christmas. There it is. I don't think it can be plainer. I don't think it can be stated any more clearly. Whether we continue to provide that as guidance or regulation will depend on the wider context, which will become clear this afternoon, and I'll make a final decision on that at that point, but the message will be the same. The message is identical in either case, and it's the message, as I think Adam Price said, that is the key thing here, that we get that message over to people as clearly as we can, and I really don't think I could have been clearer in it. 

We are working with hotels and other sectors during the day to give them the clarity that they need. Much of what we have provided already is sufficient to allow for a hibernation period in tourism and some hospitality businesses, and there will be further help as a result of the decisions that we have made today. I'm afraid Helen Mary Jones got it right herself, really, in answering her own question about when businesses can reopen. There will be a three-week review, so we will take all the evidence into account at that point. If it is possible to offer any lightening of restrictions regionally or nationally, of course that is what we would want to do, but it will depend entirely on the extent to which these measures are by then relieving the pressure that we see on the health service today and which is unsustainable unless measures are taken to reverse that trend. If the trend is reversed sustainably within three weeks, that will create one context. If we have to go further and do more in order to make our health service available to people in Wales, not just for coronavirus but all the other things we look for, then that is what we will do.

I thank the First Minister for his answers to the questions today. These are difficult times for businesses, and for communities, and indeed for Government. Those of us who sit on the back benches in this Chamber will know that for every email we get demanding that restrictions be eased, we get another email demanding that restrictions be tightened. It's not easy to take the best decision in those circumstances, and the Welsh Government has taken the right decisions. Nor is it easy to offer regional solutions in Wales. Wales is much, much smaller in land area than both England and Scotland, and it's wishful thinking to believe that the virus can be contained or kept away from one part of Wales. When you cross into the county of Conwy from the east, you do not go through a Checkpoint Charlie. It's easy to cross the boundary, and rightly so. The Menai strait is not the width of the Irish sea, so that does not act as a natural barrier, and people will cross boundaries if they have to. I will join with the leader of the opposition and with my colleague Joyce Watson about the importance of hope. There is light at the end of the tunnel. It's simply a question of how many lives we can preserve until we reach that destination. So, my question, Llywydd, is this: with a view to offering people hope, because there have been inevitably lots of restrictions over the last few months, is the First Minister able to say when we might reach a clinically significant number of vaccinated people, so that at that point people can begin to dream of a return to normality?

Llywydd, I thank Carwyn Jones for those questions and for the insight that he brings, of course, into the continuously challenging balance of judgments that we have to make in the Welsh Government, and of course he is right. When people write to us with very different points of view, it is never because one point of view has all the right things on its side and the other point of view has no merit.

I have been listening very carefully, of course, in recent days to all the messages we are receiving from senior clinicians and front-line workers, just as I have been listening to messages from informal carers in communities in Wales who have told me of the necessity for them to have some wider family support over this Christmas to go on doing all the things that they do every day to look after other people in Wales. One group of people urges me to tighten things, the other group of people urges me not to. Both have very strong arguments to make, as they pass those messages to me. And it is the balancing judgment that Carwyn Jones referred to that we have to have. And, of course, he's right to point to the limitations on regional solutions here in Wales. It's why I keep having to emphasise that what we would have to see established is not a temporary difference between one part of Wales or another, or an oscillating pattern of numbers rising and numbers falling, but a sustained and sustainable difference between some parts of Wales and others. Now, that can happen and may happen over the weeks ahead, and if it does, then our plan allows us to respond to that. But just as we have seen parts of Wales with numbers falling, those same parts of Wales, at different points, have been at the highest end of coronavirus during the months that have gone past. So, we would need to be in a different level of reliability of differentiation in order to take advantage of the decision-making pathway that the plan allows us to go down.

I'll end my reply to Carwyn Jones's question by agreeing with him about the importance of hope. Today, we are vaccinating people who live in care homes for the first time in Wales. We vaccinated a number of people in Wales at the top end of our expectation last week. If we are to get to the volumes that we would wish to see and the impact that we would wish to see in people's lives, then we must look to other vaccinations also receiving regulatory approval in order to get the volume of vaccinations to happen here in Wales. And even with everything being in place and with a huge determination of our health professionals in Wales to make that contribution, I'm afraid we are not going to be in that position until well into the second quarter of next year at the earliest.

I thank the First Minister.

The next item is questions to the Minister for Environment, Energy and Rural Affairs. The first question is from Vikki Howells.

Thank you. Following the publication of the code in 2015, my officials have met annually with stakeholders to gather evidence on the use of snares in Wales. The evidence gathered is used to assist officials in considering whether a voluntary approach in driving up operator practice and animal welfare standards is working.

Thank you, Minister. One hundred and fifteen cases of animals trapped in snares have been reported to the Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals since the code was introduced. Wild animals, including protected species, farm animals and pets, with many of these cases involving traps set in breach of the code, and this, of course, could just be the tip of the iceberg. 

Animal welfare charities rightly say that the code isn't working. The only way to stop this indiscriminate suffering is to bring in a ban. So, I was disappointed to see that the agriculture White Paper only talks about regulation. The voluntary approach hasn't worked, so why does the Welsh Government feel that regulation rather than an outright ban on the cruelty and pain caused by snares is the right way forward?

Thank you. You do raise a very important point and I think it is important that we continue to try and collect evidence on snare use in Wales where we can. But, clearly, we do need clear requirements, I think, for recording and reporting, in order that our evidence base is complete. As you're aware, I have published the agricultural White Paper today, which will pave the way for a Wales agricultural Bill in the sixth Senedd term. That will have provisions in it that will give Welsh Ministers the legislative powers to regulate all aspects of sale and use of snares, and, clearly, that is something that could also be considered in that piece of legislation.  

Minister, the use of snares is a barbaric act and has no place in modern cruelty-free Wales. The code of practice allows the immoral trade in fox fur to continue, and does nothing to stop immense suffering to target and non-target animals. The RSPCA regularly deals with badgers and pet cats that have spent days trapped in snares. Minister, do you agree with me that the code is unworkable and unpoliceable, and needs to be scrapped in favour of a total ban of this barbarism in Wales? 

[Inaudible.]—will have heard my answer to Vikki Howells and the possibility of bringing in further legislation within the agricultural Bill. But I do think that it is important that the code of practice remains there to promote best practice, and that stake snares, for instance, should only be used when other control methods are not available. 

Diolch. Our national strategy sets out our approach to flood and coastal risk management and how we will tackle the growing risks associated with climate change. Our flood programme will invest over £3 million in the Mid and West Wales region this year, including £566,000 for emergency repairs to flood infrastructure.

I'm grateful to you, Minister, for that answer. This weekend, I visited residents and businesses at Capel Teilo Road, which is between Trimsaran and Kidwelly in Carmarthenshire. A relatively small number of properties are affected, but very seriously affected, sometimes going weeks without being able to get their vehicles in and out. It's a complex pattern, Minister, with tidal flooding issues, some issues relating to the proximity of a railway and the difficulty of the water clearing. I'm sure, Minister, that you would agree with me that, when a member of a public agency said to one of the families that their property was, and I quote, 'dispensable' and that nothing could be done, that wasn't an acceptable approach. I won't name the agency because, obviously, the individual could potentially be identified by that.

But, Minister, if I write to you and ask you to do so, will you reply to me, encouraging all of the agencies that are in play here—and that includes Dŵr Cymru, Natural Resources Wales—. It also includes, obviously, the local authority and the railways, because of the railway line. Will you encourage them to come together at the site, with me and the residents, so that we can talk through what possibilities there might be? I realise that investment has to go to where the biggest number of properties are protected, but is it not also true that, when people are affected again and again and again, they too deserve our consideration and, potentially, some investment?

Yes, absolutely. You will be aware that our strategy is to protect homes and businesses and, therefore, people's lives, because we know that flooding is absolutely a devastating event. But it is not just about the large numbers, as you say. It's about individuals as well. Absolutely, I agree with you. Certainly, we saw the partnership working to which you refer very much at the fore in the February floods, particularly in the Rhondda, for instance. So, I would absolutely urge all of the organisations that you named to come together with you to see what we can do, and I'll be very happy to be part of that too. 

Minister, there are plans under way in Shropshire to develop a flood prevention scheme along the River Severn to protect Shrewsbury and surrounding areas from flooding. Now, I know that Councillor Lucy Roberts, who represents the Llandrinio ward, which is on the Welsh side of the England-Wales border, has been very keen to establish connections and also represent the views of residents on the Welsh side. If you are aware of this scheme, is the Welsh Government and NRW fully satisfied that these plans will not be detrimental to mid Wales and to my constituents as, of course, we are upstream in that regard? And if you're not aware of this particular scheme, I wonder would you ask your officials to appraise themselves, and yourself, of the scheme, and respond to us both to give us that assurance.

Thank you, Russell George, for raising this with me. I'm not aware of the scheme; I will check with officials if they are. But, as you say, I will certainly ensure that I receive a briefing on it and will write to the Member in due course.

Questions now from the party spokespeople. Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Llyr Gruffydd.

Thank you very much, Llywydd. We all know that the Government published its White Paper on agriculture this morning, and I look forward to reading that over the next few days. But, at first sight, I have to say that there isn't much difference or change from some of the consultation documents that we've previously seen. There are elements that we agree with—I think it is time for us to move towards models that pay for public goods—but you and everyone else will be aware that we disagree and continue to disagree on the need for some stability payment as part of the support available to the sector. But you pledged, of course, that you wouldn't bring proposals forward without having carried out a full impact assessment and thorough modelling of them, but I read in the White Paper, and I will quote:

'Further analytical work is being carried out to establish the economic impact of our proposals at the farm business, sector and regional levels. The results of this work will be important for assessing the potential impact of the scheme on rural communities.'

Well, that tells me that you don't know what the impact of the proposals will be on those very family farms that you will rely on to deliver those public goods and the outcomes that we all want to see. So, how can you publish such a significant White Paper, which is so far reaching, when you clearly haven't done your homework?

Llyr Huws Gruffydd will be very well aware that this White Paper is the end of many discussions, many debates and two significant consultations, and we've now brought forward the White Paper, which I said, in an earlier answer, will pave the way to a Wales agricultural Bill in the sixth Senedd.

There is a great deal of evidence and analysis that will need to be looked at ahead of bringing forward the Bill. You'll be aware that Welsh Government officials have let a contract to engage an independent consortium to examine the effects of the proposals on the agricultural economy of Wales. It is a very complex piece of work. I think it's really important we get it right, we don't rush it, and I don't expect a final report on this to be received before the autumn of next year. There is no rush to do this. We have the temporary powers from the UK Government Agricultural Bill. What is important is we get it right, and there's a great deal of work that's been done in preparing this White Paper. We've got the environmental and rural affairs monitoring and modelling programme, we've established a stakeholder evidence group, so officials can engage with stakeholders, and, as I have said, and you have just alluded to, we won't take any final decisions on the nature of any future scheme until that economic analysis is completed.

So, if there's no hurry, Minister, why are you bringing forward a White Paper before the group that you're establishing to look at making these assessments have actually concluded their work? You've contradicted yourself in that answer. And what work has already been done, which I know you reference in the report, of course, will be dated if not irrelevant come 1 January, because, at the end of the transition period, everything changes. We have no idea what access Welsh farmers will have to export markets, be it the EU or further afield. We have no idea what level of cheap imports may well be flooding into our domestic market, undermining and undercutting our producers here in Wales, and, of course, instigating that race to the bottom. And we still don't really know what level of EU replacement funding we'll receive in Wales; what we do know is that the UK Government has cut the funding that we'll receive next year. So, it really doesn't augur well in terms of you knowing what level of funding you will have to meet some of the ambitions that you have in your White Paper. So, surely, what we are proposing in any White Paper should be based on what we will come to know after the Brexit dust has settled, and not just publish a White Paper that is a bit of a hit-and-hope approach, in my book, when absolutely nothing is clear.

You are quite right that there's a huge amount of uncertainty at the current time, particularly in relation to funding. As you say, the UK Government have cut the agricultural funding by—we're £137 million short; we're still fighting to get that funding returned to us, but, clearly, funding is a significant issue. However, this is an opportunity. We know we need to bring forward an agricultural Bill very early in the sixth Senedd. This is a consultation, again. This consultation is open until 25 March. Nothing is set in stone and, as I say, no final decisions will be taken. We've engaged significantly over the past four years, since the European Union referendum. Officials have met with a wide range of stakeholders; I, myself, have met with a wide range of stakeholders. We've had many discussions in the development of the evidence base that this White Paper has been based on.

And still there's no clarity on how your proposals will actually be implemented. You mentioned it: four years since the referendum, three years, I suppose, since this dialogue with the sector started in earnest. This is the third consultation that you will be engaging with the sector and wider society around, but, again, it's a lot of high-level aspirations, which we've already seen in 'Sustainable farming and our Land', the previous consultation, and 'Brexit and our land', the one before that. There's next to no operational detail, no information on what the proposals will mean on a farm level, no clarity on timescales, no detail on the transitional arrangements, no budgetary information either. So, I'm just wondering: what are you hoping to learn from this particular consultation that hasn't already become evident to you in your two previous consultations that you've undertaken? And, again, I'll come back to the point that you made that there's no hurry. And I agree that it's more important to get it right than to do it quickly, but is the next 12 weeks really the best time to engage the sector in a meaningful consultation? They're already grappling with the consequences of a global pandemic, which is decimating the food supply system globally, and Brexit hasn't hit yet. Give it a fortnight and the whole sector's going to be in absolute chaos dealing with the fallout of the end of the transition period, and you're expecting a meaningful consultation when the sector is actually in the throes of ensuring that they just survive. Surely the timing of this is all wrong.

I absolutely recognise that we are in a very difficult period of time, but that, unfortunately, I think, is going to last for a little while later. You will be very well aware that I committed to bring forward this White Paper before the end of the year, and I'm sure you would have been the first to criticise me if I hadn't done that. So, I have to say, I haven't heard from any quarters, apart from what you've just raised with me, about it being the wrong time to consult. Everybody has known this White Paper is coming before the end of the year. I think it was back—if it wasn't the summer, it was certainly the autumn that I promised to do that before the end of the calendar year. So, nobody will be surprised that we have brought this forward. The consultation is open to 25 March; I hope to hear as many views as possible on the White Paper. And I think stakeholders recognise that we're in a middle of a climate emergency as well, whilst, of course, we're in the middle of a pandemic. That climate emergency is here as well, and I know that the agricultural sector, in particular, feels they are part of the solution to that climate emergency, and I would be very keen to hear their views on how they will continue to respond to that.

Conservatives spokesperson, Janet Finch-Saunders.

Diolch, Llywydd. I have to say, in looking forward to the publication of the White Paper today, I do have to echo and endorse some of the comments by my colleague Llyr Gruffydd. These White Paper proposals fall short of providing the framework required to meet the principles and ambitions that our Welsh farmers deserve. We've all known the result of the Brexit vote, and, on the quick reading that I've had a chance to do on this today, it's not too clear that some of the previous consultations have added any weight to that, in terms of you taking those forward.

Our farms are the cornerstone of our rural communities, and are essential job creators, who safeguard historic and sustainable land management practices for generations to come. Despite your White Paper running to 74 pages, I'm astounded that you've only referenced the term 'employment' three times, and have only given a single cursory nod to jobs in the farming sector. This undermines the immense value that our farms bring to rural communities and regional economies. So, Minister, will you review your proposals to fully recognise the importance of the farming sector as an integral employer in rural areas, and will you look to further emphasise the very real value of the food production by our farmers in Wales?

I'm astounded at Janet Finch-Saunders's analysis of the White Paper. Obviously, it's the Bill and then the Act that will provide that framework, but the whole purpose of having our own Wales agricultural bill—the first time we've had the opportunity; let's look at the opportunities from leaving the European Union. And this is a massive opportunity to have our own Welsh agricultural policy, absolutely tailored for Wales—a bespoke agricultural policy. We absolutely need to keep farmers on the land—absolutely. Without them, we wouldn't be able to deliver any of the outcomes that we seek to do. Sustainable food production is absolutely at the heart of this White Paper—not like England's. So, we are absolutely adamant that food production has to be a part. And if you look at 'Brexit and our land', that was one of the concerns of the agricultural sector, that food wasn't given enough prominence. That changed with the second consultation, in relation to 'Sustainable Farming and our Land', and it's absolutely at the heart of the White Paper, along with the environmental outcomes that our farmers are producing but not being rewarded for at the current time.

Thank you, Minister, but considering the time that has elapsed since your very first consultation, I am dismayed by the lack of substantive detail in this document, and such little acknowledgement of the time and energy that our farmers have put in to responding to you previously on many other consultations. And reading the document—albeit very quickly—today, it does not reflect the input that they've had. This proposal should stand as a once-in-a-generation opportunity. We're looking at a 15 to 20-year plan, to develop and introduce a comprehensive food and farming policy, ensuring food security, and promoting the sale and procurement of Welsh food for the domestic market. Instead, however, your White Paper is heavy on enforcement, mentioning regulations 79 times. I consider that a class insult to our farmers—a move that will only work to impact the competitiveness of our farms.

COVID-19 has highlighted the fragility of our supply chains, and just how important our farmers are to food production in Wales. Just remember how they came forward during the pandemic, and continue to do so. When people became very frightened and bothered about going into supermarkets, our farmers were there, with our butchers, delivering food where it was needed, and that cannot be overlooked. It is simply not a globally responsible position for this Government to pursue a policy that leads to the contraction of Welsh farming and food production, and that is the feeling so far. So, Minister, in this context, why does the White Paper mention food security only twice, with no apparent consideration of the need to maintain and enhance levels of food production in Wales?

So, we had the first consultation back in 2018 and the second one last year, in 2019. Again, I'm surprised that you don't feel that there has been a change in the tone of language or the proposals that have come forward, because there clearly has. So, I would ask you to go back and look at the two previous consultations, just to see that.

Our proposal to introduce a sustainable farming scheme is to place a proper value on the environmental outcomes that our farmers produce. They don't get rewarded for that at the current time. Sustainable food production is absolutely at the heart of it also, and that was at the specific request of, certainly the first consultation we had, where we had over 12,000 responses. So, to say we haven't listened to people who took the time to respond, I think, is completely incorrect.

There are those who have called for a status quo, but I think, as the—. Certainly the first consultation, people were saying they wanted a status quo. But if you talk to the majority of farmers, they will say that the common agricultural policy has not equipped the sector to be resilient or to deal with the environmental challenges that, as I say, the climate emergency is really in the middle of. I absolutely agree with you that our agricultural sector, and our farmers, were at the fore, to ensure that we were all fed. Nobody went without food in Wales, and of course they were part of that.

So, this is a consultation again, so if anybody has any further ideas, obviously we hope to hear very much from them. We're going to work very closely with the industry and with our farmers to develop the detail of the scheme. And I've made it very clear that we won't make any changes until we can demonstrate that new scheme is adequately designed.

You mentioned procurement, and I absolutely agree with you that that is a further opportunity. And that food security that we're all concerned about, I'm certainly having discussions with my counterparts at the current time, because a 'no deal' exit from the European Union would not do anything to help our food security.

Thank you again. Minister, in dealing with the national minimum standards for agriculture, your White Paper states:

'Further, more detailed, consultation on the scope of the National Minimum Standards will accompany this secondary legislation.'

So, there's a feeling that you are once again leaving the details until further down the road. Now, considering that you are intending to make these as broad as possible, consolidating regulations on nitrate vulnerable zones and animal health and welfare legislation into it, stakeholders have said that they believe the timing of the publication will make it harder for farmers to actively participate, and that they feel that this paper simply does not reflect their consistent level of engagement with you on previous consultations.

Just let me remind you that when our hardworking farmers do respond to consultations, a lot of their time and energy goes into that, so this document, and any Bill going forward, must reflect their views. So, having raised concerns with you about engagement before, can you give this Chamber some reassurances that adequate time will be given for farmers to scrutinise these proposals with a target date when this further clarity will be provided? Because, quite simply, as you've rightly pointed out, we're in the middle of COVID still, we're in the middle of a climate emergency, and with all the Brexit negotiations and preparations at the beginning part of the year, it's going to be very difficult—[Interruption.] I don't think the Minister needs any help, Joyce. [Interruption.]

Hold on, this isn't a conversation between the two of you. You carry on, Janet Finch-Saunders. 

There's going to be very little time for farmers, once again, to engage if they feel they're not being listened to. So, all I do is make a plea, again, after what's been a horrendous year for all of us, make a plea that you listen to the farmers and you make our food producers and our farmers the most integral part of any agricultural Bill going forward. Thank you. 

Janet Finch-Saunders reminds us that we're in the middle of a perfect storm; I couldn't agree more with you on that. But I have always made the farmers and our food producers absolutely integral in all this. I've always listened to them. I've always engaged them. I think you'd be very hard-pressed to find a farmer that would say any different.

You referred to the national minimum standards in relation to regulations, and one of the first complaints I received when I came into this portfolio four years ago was that the regulations were too complex, there was not one place where those regulations were, they were in different parts of legislation. This is a proposal to bring everything together in one piece of legislation. Also, you've got the enforcement of agricultural regulation, which, really, is currently heavily focused on the CAP payment schemes. And outside of those schemes, it then really goes to criminal prosecution. It's a very big leap from that to criminal prosecution. I don't want to criminalise our farmers, and I think we need proportionate options for enforcing less serious offences. So, that is the plan with the national minimum standards. But, again, it's a 12-week consultation.

And one of the reasons—. Believe me, the team of officials that have worked on this, they were very, very involved at the beginning of the COVID-19 response for Welsh Government. They knew that I wanted to bring this White Paper forward by the end of the year: (1) I promised it, and (2) in order to have the full 12 weeks of consultation, and that's one of the reasons for bringing it forward now, and I pay tribute to the hard work they've done to enable that to happen. 

People should think hard about the commitment involved in pet ownership. It is important potential owners of a new pet ensure that the animal is sourced responsibly. For this reason, we have relaunched our #PawsPreventProtect campaign and will continue to issue strong messaging on this in the future.

I thank you. In the first month of lockdown, online searches for puppies and kittens increased by 120 per cent according to the Dogs Trust. And that upsurge in the sale of puppies and kittens, according to a report from Battersea Dogs Home, has resulted in a 94 per cent increase of legal imports from overseas to meet demand. Sadly, according to the charity, this spike is likely to indicate an increase in the illegal cross-border puppy and kitten smuggling trade as well. Many of them will be sold via third parties on online sites like Facebook and Gumtree, for example.

In October, the Welsh Government announced that they will be bringing forward legislation that will make the third-party sale of puppies and kittens illegal in Wales, and we call it Lucy's law. It is important legislation and it is hoped that it will eradicate the unscrupulous breeders that have little regard for animal welfare. So, Minister, are you able to give us a clear timetable for when you intend to implement what is commonly known as Lucy's law in Wales?

So, as I think I mentioned to the Chair of the Climate Change, Environment and Rural Affairs Committee last week—and the chief veterinary officer is really keen that I push this point—we're going beyond Lucy's law, and it is about third-party sales. So, it will be brought forward before the end of this parliamentary term. I can't give you an exact timeline, but, as I say, we've only got three, four months now to enable us to do this. And, despite all the other calls on the team's time, we are on track still with our third-party sales legislation. 

You will have heard me say many times, Joyce, that the legislation on its own will not do everything we would want it to do, and that's why we've had the local authority dog breeding enforcement project too. We funded that and worked very closely with our local authorities. Llywydd, I would just like to remind people that we do, unfortunately, know that Christmas is traditionally a time for impulse purchases of puppies and kittens. I mentioned the #PawsPreventProtect social media campaign. We've relaunched that. We did that last year, ahead of Christmas, and we have relaunched that this week to remind people.

Thank you. The Welsh Government sets the priorities for the whole of Wales through the natural resources policy. The south-east Wales area statement, published by Natural Resources Wales, outlines the key challenges and opportunities to sustainably manage natural resources in the area, and that includes Torfaen.

Thank you, Minister. SL Recycling Ltd has been operating a waste plant on the former Shanks incinerator site in a residential area of New Inn, in my constituency. They were granted a permit by NRW many months ago, despite the fact that the company is only now applying for planning permission from the local authority. Since they've begun operating, I've received a huge volume of complaints from local residents who are affected by noise nuisance and other matters such as odour. Those issues have had to be picked up by my hard-pressed local authority, because NRW are not able to be sufficiently responsive. Do you share my concern, Minister, about the obvious disconnect between the operation of NRW and my local authority? Will you raise this with NRW, with a view to ensuring that this disconnect does not continue in future? Thank you.

Thank you. I'm very concerned to hear this, and I certainly do share your concerns, because obviously planning and environmental permitting are complementary regimes. The planning permission determines if the development is an acceptable use of land, for instance, and it's absolutely right that the complaints went to the local authority in the first place, but I'll be certainly very happy to raise this with Natural Resources Wales at my regular monthly meetings, and then I will write to the Member to fully fulfil what your concerns are. Obviously, the issue of an environmental permit from NRW doesn't remove the requirement for a site to have the appropriate planning consent. So, I will ask NRW again to consult with the local authority and make sure that everything is absolutely in place.

Nearly 10 years ago, the Welsh Government set a target for planting 5,000 hectares of new woodland every year until 2030. However, in the last five years, the average figure for new woodland planted is only 300 hectares. Does the Minister agree that the Welsh Government's failure to meet its own target is hampering its ability to achieve its climate change aims? And what action will she take to encourage more trees to be planted in Torfaen and throughout Wales?

You will have heard me say many times that we have certainly not planted enough trees and that's why we've brought forward several initiatives in the last 12 months, particularly the main one being the national forest, and that will create areas of new woodland to help us restore and maintain some of our irreplaceable ancient woodlands and also to ensure that we are planting more trees to help us mitigate climate change. Again, you will have heard my earlier answers around the agriculture White Paper, published today, and in there you will see the plan to plant more trees. But I absolutely have always said we need to work with our farmers, with our land managers, with NRW to ensure that we significantly increase the number of trees we are planting.

Thank you. Throughout the COVID-19 pandemic, we've issued guidance, working with the veterinary profession and existing companion animal welfare groups and have established our own farmed animal health and welfare group to specifically consider the impact of COVID-19 on animal welfare. Promoting high animal welfare standards remains a priority, despite the challenges we're all facing.

Thank you, Minister. During this COVID-19 pandemic, of course, we've seen an increase in demand for and the selling of puppies from various sources. Now, UK-based Google searches for puppies near where I live have increased more than six times and the number of licences issued for the commercial import of dogs more than doubled to 12,733 from June to August 2019 in the same three-month period this year. So, there is a serious concern that we are sitting on an animal welfare time bomb. It just beggars belief that import licences to bring dogs and puppies in have doubled in that way, when you see how many strays there are, how many unwanted dogs are waiting for forever homes. So, there could be a significant increase in the levels of abandonment as the further economic consequences of coronavirus are realised. So, it's fair to say our rescue centres must be prepared. However, fundraising opportunities are vastly reduced, and a survey of members of the Animal Welfare Network Wales showed 71 per cent of organisations calling for grants to be made available to rescues—that's a significant amount of people needing help to look after these dogs that find themselves in dire straits. So, will you consider stepping in at some point with some funding to assist the rescue centres, should they be able to prove that, despite the grants they may have received from any other sources, you might be able to help in some way? Thank you.

I thank Janet Finch-Saunders for that question. You raised this issue when I was in front of committee last Thursday, and both I and the chief veterinary officer said that we haven't seen an increase in abandonment. But maybe it's too early because, obviously, people perhaps are working from home, who have not gone back to work, and if they've had a puppy or a dog during that time, maybe it is a bit early to assess that, but we are keeping a close eye on that.

I think I also mentioned last week that the economic resilience fund, which is unique to Wales, supporting businesses, is available for some of the centres to which you referred to apply for. Clearly, it's something that we are keeping a very close eye on and, as the pandemic progresses and we do come out of this and we do see people returning to work et cetera, we will have to, as I say, keep a very close eye. But, certainly, we're not seeing the levels of abandonment that I think you referred to.

A number of people have bought pets for the first time because they're working from home due to COVID and they feel they've got time to look after them. Should training in animal welfare be offered to people purchasing their first pet, because, to be quite honest with you, if I actually bought a rabbit, I wouldn't have the faintest idea what to do with it?

I think you make a very important point, and I wouldn't just say it's a first pet; I think anyone purchasing a pet, because, as you say, sometimes people buy rabbits or dogs et cetera. But we have got appropriate training available. I know that, in relation to dogs, there is the local authority dog breeding project. That's looking at improvements around socialisation plans that are being put into practice at licensed dog breeding premises, and I think that that's a first step, in training puppies to make sure that they are good family pets.

The pandemic has impacted all sectors, and the rural economy is no different. In September, I committed £106 million to support the rural economy over the next three years. We are continually assessing the impacts of the pandemic and have responded decisively.

Thank you for that answer, Minister. The COVID pandemic has undoubtedly hit the rural economy hard and will continue to do so for a long time to come. One shameful feature of the rural economy in Wales is puppy farming. Ministers from other nations have had the determination to ban third-party puppy sales, and your latest statement on this issue is that a ban would be put in place before the end of this parliamentary term. However, you haven't said when and you haven't said why you are continuing to let the animal suffering go on in the meantime. The legislation involved is simple and could simply be copied and pasted from the other UK countries that have shown more care for animal welfare than this Government and have already brought in bans. Your Government has found time to give prisoners the vote but still hasn't found time to ban third-party sales that fuel the puppy farming industry. So, Minister, why is it that you're delaying the ban on this cruel business? Is it because, in the current economic climate, you're trying to protect the profits of any business that the COVID restrictions haven't sent to the wall, even if that business is making money out of suffering?

Michelle Brown wasn't listening to my earlier answer to Joyce Watson that we will be bringing forward the legislation, which goes beyond Lucy's law, by the end of this Senedd term, i.e. April. So, if she hasn't heard that, well, I've just repeated it for her.

We know that mental health issues can often be hidden and disguised, particularly in deeper rural areas of Wales, often, sadly, until it's too late. The pandemic has now added another layer to many of the stresses and strains that are being faced by businesses and farmers, for instance, in the rural areas. What assessment have you made and what discussions have you had with the Minister responsible for dealing with mental health issues to assess the challenges that are facing businesses and farmers and people within the rural economy, and what support can the Welsh Government give to businesses in those areas at this difficult time to make sure that the burden is carried with those affected by the Government for as much as possible?

Nick Ramsay raises a very important point. It's about that balance of harms that the First Minister was referring to, and we've clearly seen poor mental health increase significantly during this pandemic. In relation to the rural sector and the agricultural sector, we have brought forward specific schemes to help our agricultural sector. We've brought forward a group of all the charities that work in this area. I attended several meetings, particularly over the summer and the spring, at the height of the pandemic, to make sure that those charities and organisations were working very closely together for farmers to access that funding. We also brought forward a scheme that was in production, but we brought it forward earlier, called FarmWell, where people can access really quick assistance, to work with organisations, in relation to better mental health. I've had discussions with my colleague Eluned Morgan and, prior to that, with the Minister for Health and Social Services around this to ensure that we are reaching as many people as possible, and I really pay tribute to the charities within the agricultural sector who have provided so much support over the past nine months.

COVID-19 is clearly affecting our rural economy and will continue to do so for some time to come, but could I ask the Minister what assessment she has made of the additional impact of EU withdrawal on the rural economy and communities through the loss of agricultural support and rural development support, the loss of EU-funded social programmes and infrastructure programmes, like broadband, and without the UK Government making good on its promises to replace these funds in full and pass those funds back to Wales under our devolved powers and, I have to say, without Boris Johnson being able to deliver a so-called oven-ready Brexit trade deal, and letting down, therefore, badly, Welsh farmers? Would she agree with me that, regardless of which side of the Brexit argument you were originally on, there are points that everyone can now agree on: that the Brexit promises were false, and that the people of Wales were deceived by Boris Johnson and by assorted Faragist cheerleaders? They've let Wales down badly and they now need to own the mess that they've made.

I absolutely agree with the Member, and certainly the failure to provide full replacement agricultural funding is clearly something that makes me very angry—it should make us all very angry. And every Member of this Senedd should be standing up for Wales to ensure we get that funding back to support our agricultural sector. Wales currently benefits from over £700 million from our participation in a range of EU programmes, and the vast majority of those do absolutely support our rural economy and society. We will continue to fight for that funding, but I have to say the UK Government have betrayed our rural Wales. 

Question 7 [OQ56031] is withdrawn. Question 8, Rhianon Passmore. 

Thank you. Welsh Government funds the Fly-tipping Action Wales programme, which is led by Natural Resources Wales. The programme continues to support Caerphilly County Borough Council in tackling fly-tipping. This has included provision of surveillance equipment, signage and training. Work is ongoing to identify solutions to stop fly-tipping on common land in this region.

Thank you, Minister, for that answer. Fly-tipping costs Caerphilly County Borough Council hundreds of thousands of pounds, with the majority of rubbish being dumped in areas of open land, such as the historic Twmbarlwm in my constituency of Islwyn. Not only is there a financial cost to pay, but there is untold cost to the beautiful natural landscapes of Islwyn. Minister, earlier this year the Welsh Government relaunched its duty of care campaign to encourage people to help stop fly-tipping. So, how can the Welsh Government aid and empower Caerphilly County Borough Council and other local authorities to help combat the scourge of fly-tipping?

Rhianon Passmore raises a really important point. This part of Welsh Government has recently come back into my portfolio, and I've taken a keen interest in it because I think, certainly over the course of the pandemic, we have seen an increase in fly-tipping that we would not want to see. So, we do continue to work closely with all local authorities so that we can support them in any measures they bring forward to prevent and investigate fly-tipping incidents. 

I think the campaign to which you referred, the Duty of Care campaign, has been well received. There's a communication toolkit, for instance, which can be used by all partner organisations and that really does encourage householders to dispose of their waste and recycling responsibly. We've also recently awarded funding via the rural communities rural development programme for the common collaboration project at the commons that are partly located, I think, in your constituency, but certainly within Caerphilly County Borough Council. And part of that project will focus on tackling landscape crime, and that includes a Fly-tipping Action Wales officer working closely with the commoners association and Caerphilly council to tackle fly-tipping. 

Thank you. Local authorities in South Wales East and Natural Resources Wales have responsibility for preventing land contamination through the planning regime, industrial regulation or implementing contaminated land legislation. We previously provided support through the contaminated land capital fund. We also fund land contamination training for local authorities and NRW.

Thank you, Minister. I've written to you on a number of occasions about the activities of the Bryn Group near Gelligaer, who have contaminated land by putting shredded plastic through the soil and who appear to have been spreading grass seed to cover that up. Now, Caerphilly council and NRW have said that there's no problem with the site, despite all the evidence that I and others have sent through video footage and photographs. I, myself, have walked the bund for two hours and can testify to how extensive and devastating the contamination is. In response to my most recent letter, Minister, you've told me that you'll be asking NRW to look into this matter again, but you've said that you don't see the need for an independent investigation. Could I please plead with you, Minister, to reconsider that decision, to keep the door open to conducting your own investigation of the contamination before all the evidence is covered up deep in the soil as a problem for future generations to deal with? I've told you before that I'm concerned the plastic could be entering the food chain through silage. This is not a problem that's going to go away, so please can you give me your assurance, and your assurance for the residents living nearby, that you'll take this extremely seriously? 

I can reassure the Member that I do take it very seriously. I have raised it with NRW. I can't remember off the top of my head if they've come back to me on that, but I will certainly chase that up when I get back to the office and write again to the Member.FootnoteLink

Thank you, Minister. 

The next item is questions to the Minister for Housing and Local Government, and the first question is from Siân Gwenllian.

As the Member will be aware, this is one of a number of issues being considered by the cross-party working group, and also being considered by officials, linked to concerns around second homes in some communities. We will be updating the cross-party group in the new year.

Gwynedd Council has published a new housing scheme for the county with a budget of almost £80 million. The purpose of the scheme is to respond to the increasing crisis that there is in terms of housing in Gwynedd, placing the pressure on homes for local people, people who are in need, and investment in the local housing stock for the future. But as another step to respond to the crisis, Plaid Cymru wants to see every holiday unit in the short term receiving a licence before being available to let, ensuring planning permission in some areas. Scotland is about to have those powers through transferring them to the local authorities. Do you agree with me that we need a similar scheme here in Wales to prevent the loss of more of the housing stock from local hands? Gwynedd Council has found that 92 per cent of people in Abersoch have been priced out of the market.

You'll know that we're going to be monitoring the effects of changes made to primary legislation in Scotland through the Planning (Scotland) Act 2019, which does require the registration of all short-term lets and allows a planning authority to designate all or part of an area as a short-term let control area. In designated areas—as I'm sure you're aware—the use of the dwelling house there for providing short-term lets would be a material change of use. But we understand the processes relating to these changes are not fully effected until 2024, and so not a quick fix by any means.

I was also very aware that Gwynedd Council's scrutiny committee were scheduled to meet on 10 December to look at a research paper, which you've just referenced—I think that's the paper you've just referenced, 'Managing the use of dwellings as holiday homes'—and we're very keen to work with them on the recommendations that they brought forward, but that for the most part require Welsh Government rather than the local authority to do things, all of which include some kind of primary legislation. But we're very happy to look at that as part of the cross-party working group as well.

I'm very happy to look with Gwynedd at reviewing a number of other issues that the local authority could do and we're keen to take forward what can be done without the use of primary legislation. Siân will be aware—as well as all other Members of the Senedd—of the difficulty of getting any legislation through in this Senedd term now as a result of pressures on resourcing as a result of COVID-19, Brexit and the shortness of the timescale. But I'm very happy to look with the cross-party group at the recommendations of the report in Gwynedd. I'm as anxious as she is to do something about the increasing difficulties of parts of Wales where—you know, they're very beautiful, aren't they? So, more and more people want to come and either live there or stay there on a longer-term basis.

Having said that, of course we want to ensure that the tourism industry, which is very, very important to Wales, is also resilient and sustainable, especially after the battering they've all had this year. So, it is a question of balance as always, but I absolutely accept that Gwynedd in particular has a real problem with the numbers of people who come into the county looking for lovely holidays.

We value and continue to provide a range of support to our armed forces community. Our armed forces annual report, laid before the Senedd on 30 September 2020, sets out in detail the comprehensive support we provide to veterans in Wales.

Thank you, Minister. Newport Veterans Hub is a social support group that aims to bring veterans out of isolation and give them a place to socialise and make new friends. As well as offering support and activities for veterans and their families, including a free meal delivery service for those suffering with ill health, they link up with other local and national organisations to ensure their members can access the services that they need. They're really keen that the hub supports veterans and their families as well. They have recently linked up with Dragons Rugby and their mission is to make Newport one of the best places for supporting veterans in the UK.

Speaking with some of the veterans when I visited the Thursday drop-in, the work that they're doing is phenomenal, and sadly very necessary. We're all aware of the difficulties faced by servicemen and women when they return from active service, and while warm words are welcome, veterans and their families want and need to see support in practical ways. The support offered by the hub is tailored to the needs of the users, and is greatly appreciated. The hub is a charitable organisation that relies on donations, so would the Minister look closely at the excellent work of Newport Veterans Hub and ensure that the Welsh Government is doing all that it can to support our veterans and their families in our communities?

Can I thank Jayne Bryant for sharing her recent visit and the excellent and very valued work that the Newport Veterans Hub does? You mentioned the importance of working in partnership as well, and that peer-led support that we know makes a big difference, and is a way that we can actually do all that we can and need to do to support those who've served and our veterans in Wales. One of the things I'd say is that we're very much committed to supporting and building on that support for those who've served in Wales, and actually the scoping exercise that took place last year to identify those areas where we perhaps might need to build on and strengthen support—I know that the Newport Veterans Hub participated in that, and also they actually work closely and are supported by the Welsh Government-funded armed forces liaison officers. But I'm very happy to continue the conversation with the Member if she'd like to write to me about the work of the hub, to see how actually we can make sure they're well aligned with the work we're doing right across Government, and the armed forces expert group as well.

Thank you, Minister. I too would like to extend my thanks and congratulations to the Newport Veterans Hub. They do fantastic work. Charities supporting veterans have been hard hit by this coronavirus pandemic, and I'm thinking of the poppy appeal particularly during the firebreak. In view of this, what additional specific and targeted support will the Minister provide for veterans in Wales who may have been adversely impacted by the loss of funding during this time?

I thank Laura Anne Jones for her question as well, and add to the appreciation that we all recognise for organisations like the Newport Veterans Hub. Like you say, like many organisations it's faced difficult and very different times as a consequence of the coronavirus pandemic. I've been in close contact with the Royal British Legion, particularly ahead of the poppy appeal, to make sure that we were working with them as a Government to support their work, albeit in very different circumstances, and challenging circumstances, for the remembrance period of 2020. It was obviously very different to what it was in previous years. We'll continue to work very closely with those charities and other organisations to build on the support that's already there. This is an ongoing situation that we review, but if you haven't done so already, I'd urge you to take a look at the annual report, which looks at the support we provide and how we aim to build on that. But I'd really like to place on record today that this Government is absolutely, wholeheartedly committed to working in partnership across Government and with local authority and third sector partners to make sure we can do all we can to support our veterans in Wales. Whilst we might not have responsibility for defence, we absolutely are there to support our veterans in a range of areas from health to housing to education and so on, and their families as well.

Porthcawl Veterans Hub and the many volunteers there give so much support to veterans, and without this support, many of them would be lost. But Minister, the pandemic has highlighted the fact that we as a nation are still failing our ex-servicemen and women, and veterans are still struggling to get the support they need and deserve, and far too many veterans have now been highlighted as still sleeping rough or sofa surfing, despite a commitment from both the UK and Welsh Governments. Minister, do you agree with me that we must do much more for these heroes who regularly put their lives on the line for us, and will you commit to finding accommodation for every single one of the veterans in Wales who so desperately need it? Thank you. 

Diolch. Thank you, Caroline Jones. You again highlight the excellent work of the many hubs and organisations that are supporting our veterans and working in partnership in communities right across the country. We're very much committed to building on that support. As I said, our scoping exercise that took place last year was aimed at perhaps identifying where some things could be better aligned, and where those gaps were in support. They worked with a number of hubs and organisations that work closely with veterans, and with veterans themselves, in terms of actually identifying how we can build on that support in the areas that we do have responsibility for within Wales. 

As part of that veterans scoping work, we are going to be updating the housing pathway that's already in place, working with the sector both in terms of the housing sector and those who support veterans, to ensure that housing providers are fully aware of it and making sure it's being fully engaged. Alongside that, we'll also make sure that our housing guidance is reviewed and updated for providers to make sure that the needs of our armed forces are being considered and, indeed, put front and centre as we take that work forward. Because I couldn't agree more with the Member, and other Members who've raised support for our veterans in the Senedd today, that we are absolutely committed and we do owe that debt of gratitude to those who served and those who continue to serve, to ensure that that support and guidance is there in communities right across the country. 

Questions now from the party spokespeople. Conservative spokesperson, Mark Isherwood. 

Diolch, Llywydd. COVID has shown us just how important it is to properly fund services that take pressure away from statutory services. Services funded by the housing support grant play a vital role in preventing homelessness and reducing costs, particularly to health and social services. Homelessness and housing support workers have been at the forefront of the response to the COVID-19 pandemic, having helped over 4,000 people receive emergency accommodation and support, as well as continuing to support thousands of others to avoid homelessness. In order for this to be sustained, there needs to be a large increase in the housing support grant in the Welsh Government's budget, taking account of the fact there has been no inflationary increase in this grant for 10 years. Are you able to tell us whether this will happen? 

I thank Mark Isherwood for the question and the acknowledgement of the incredibly hard work that's been done across homelessness services by statutory services, by voluntary and third sector services. I'm always happy to have another opportunity to pay tribute to the extremely hard work, the fortitude and sheer resilience of the service. My tribute to the people at the front end of that service is absolutely heartfelt, because what we've managed to achieve in Wales in that period of time is just extraordinary. As he said, we now have over 4,000 people who've been housed through phase 1 of the homelessness service.

And absolutely, of course, it's not just about housing people in terms of four walls and a roof; it's about the support services that go with that, all the support services necessary to sustain somebody in that tenancy. So, I absolutely am incredibly grateful to all of the services and the umbrella organisations. Cymorth, in particular, has been extremely supportive all the way through in helping sustain that. Mark Isherwood will not be surprised to find that, however, I am not going to pre-empt the Welsh Government budget, which he knows will be published in draft on 21 December, and he wouldn't expect me to do so.  

In your statement of 23 November, you accepted in principle the recommendations in the third and final report of the homelessness action group, including taking forward earlier intervention and preventative activity so that people do not become homeless in the first place. Evidence shows that nearly 50 per cent of single homeless people first became homeless before the age of 21, highlighting the need for earlier intervention and preventative activity focused on youth homelessness to significantly reduce the number of homeless people overall. The homelessness action group's report makes it clear that an increase in the housing support grant is needed in order to set Wales on a path to end homelessness. Next week's budget is therefore an opportunity to turn that into reality. Front-line homelessness and housing support staff have been exceptional during this pandemic, but we know that reductions in real-term budgets mean that they are in desperate need of extra funding to ensure they get the recognition and the support they need. Given that the housing support grant now goes to local authorities for distribution, what assurance at all can you provide that they will receive an increase at local authority level in the grant, and will you encourage local authorities to commission services that provide this key recognition and support for staff working in such challenging circumstances?

As I said, Mark Isherwood, I'm not going to be pre-empting the budget statement that my colleague, Rebecca Evans, will make next week, or the local government settlement announcement, which I will make the day after that, for obvious reasons. However, I'm really grateful for your acknowledgement of the incredible hard work that the sector has put in. I think we should be really proud of Wales. It's in stark contrast to what has happened across the border, of course, where homelessness services have started to slide back. We, unfortunately, have seen some small slippage of people back onto the streets, but it's very, very minor compared to the numbers of people that we've been working with, and I can assure Members of the Senedd that every single one of the people that we know have slipped back onto the streets is in receipt of assertive outreach services, so we know who they are and we're working with them to get them back into services as soon as possible.

I will take this opportunity, Llywydd, to just correct something that Caroline Jones said about the number of veterans sleeping out. The veterans pathway is working very well in Wales, and we do not have large numbers of veterans back on the streets, counter to what the Member said in her previous question.

Well, I will emphasise the questions I've raised with you were raised with me by the sector, who deserve the full praise that we've both given them, but also are desperately worried that this year's budget won't repeat previous years' and that they won't get the uplift they need, given the fantastic job they've done and the essential role they play.

If I may now finish by moving to the housing market more broadly, reflecting concern raised with me by estate agency businesses in Wales working in our cross-border regions, following today's announcement that Wales will go into a level 4 lockdown—the highest possible—from 28 December, with non-essential shops in Wales to close at the end of trading on Christmas Eve. As they state, the housing market itself is buoyant. Consumers are anxious to secure completion before the end of the land transaction tax holiday on 31 March, yet estate agents in Wales operating in the border towns will once again be disadvantaged, with competitor agents in England being open. As they also state, estate agents are COVID-secure, and the housing market has remained open next door in England throughout lockdowns and tier 3 restrictions there. So, they need to know: what scientific evidence to close the housing market does the Welsh Government have that England doesn't?

Thank you for that question, Mark Isherwood. Obviously, we face one of the most dire situations in terms of the pandemic that we have faced so far. The numbers are truly horrifying, and going up in every area of Wales bar Ynys Môn. I have, only today, met with all of the local authority leaders and chief executives, and they are as one in thinking that we should do something about these figures before our health service is unable to cope. So, although my heart goes out to anyone who is trying to move in these circumstances, and of course we've got to balance harms against economic harms to the industry and so on, in the end we are in the middle of a global pandemic, and Wales's figures are nothing to be sanguine about. So, I'm afraid that we must put the public health first. I will, however, be working with the industry to try and keep as much of it open as possible. For obvious reasons, we would not want people to be viewing houses where somebody is in residence and so on, but I'm sure we will be able to work with the industry to make sure that at least some parts of the market stay open.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Delyth Jewell.

Thank you, Lywydd. Minister, over the past 20 years, the number of homes in Wales privately rented has more than doubled. Although there was a small decline over recent years, it's still true to say that over 200,000 homes are rented by private landlords, and, as a percentage term, this was the only tenure that had increased over that period. Homes owned by the person living in the home and social housing have both declined over the same period. Is this a trend that you'd like to see increasing over the next 20 years?
 

No. Very much no, Delyth. You'll be aware, from the many conversations that we've had that we'd very much—. Although the private rented sector has its place to play in terms of accommodation, and we're very grateful to the very many good landlords we have across Wales for providing good homes for people, nevertheless, we'd very much like to see an increase, in particular in houses for social rent. As a result of the cap being removed from the housing revenue accounts only a few short years ago, we've worked really, really hard with councils and RSLs across Wales to ramp up the building of homes for social rent in particular. I'm really pleased that we've made the target—the 20,000 affordable homes target—but it's the social rent part of that that's most needed. And you'll know from the long conversations we have, and I know that we share the ambition, that the way to do—you know, we need to ramp that up as fast as possible. So, we've been working very hard, through our innovative housing programme, as well as just through our normal building routes, to ramp up builds by both our registered social landlords and our stock-holding councils to get as many social homes built and into the market as possible. And, of course, we have a number of schemes aimed at taking in private rented accommodation into the social housing market, either on a five-year rolling basis, or indeed, we've allowed councils to buy them where that's appropriate. 

Thank you, Minister. I know that we are agreed on a number of these areas. I think, indeed, that there is a general consensus that we need to reverse that trend that I've just set out with the need, as you've said, for more social housing and more support for young people to escape from renting—for some people, they choose to rent, but some people are forced into it and we need to ensure that people can have alternatives.

Although we've seen a small decline in the number of homes privately rented since the introduction of the requirement to register as a landlord, there's been nothing like the exodus from the sector that was threatened when Governments started to talk about putting this sector under appropriate regulation. So, could I ask whether the Government will strengthen the regulations in that sector, as many would argue that we need to strengthen the quality and security of tenancy for tenants? After all, people shouldn't just have assurances over the Christmas period alone. 

Absolutely, Delyth; I couldn't agree more. One of the reasons that we passed, in this Welsh Parliament, the Renting Homes (Wales) Act back in 2016 was to do exactly that—to change the balance, really, between tenants and landlords in the private rented sector and give people much more security of tenure. You'll know that we're looking at the Renting Homes (Amendment) (Wales) Bill at the moment to improve, once again, on that Act, as four years have gone by and we're very happy, always, to look at improvements.

Unfortunately, because of COVID-19, we've not been able to implement the Renting Homes (Wales) Act with the speed that we'd like. I've been very keen to see all parties in this Senedd commit to doing that in election manifestos so that whoever makes up the Government after May would be committed to bringing that Act into force as soon as it can be managed. There are a number of statutory instruments that still need to be completed and a number of pieces of work with Rent Smart Wales and the landlords associations and so on that need to be completed for a smooth transition. But we've solved many of the issues that we had that stopped us from implementing it, and so, it's a matter of some frustration to me that we haven't been able to do that as a result of the pandemic.

I'm really proud of having done that in Wales, and I would reiterate your point, actually: we're always being told by a very small minority of landlords that any change we make will see a mass exodus from the market, and so on. None of the figures ever bear that out. And the good landlords know that we aren't doing anything that they will have any problem with; it's only rogue landlords who have anything to fear from this.

Thank you for that, Minister. You mentioned in your previous answer about COVID-19 and the effect that that's had on so many aspects of the housing market. Now, it's clear that the restrictions that have been in place this year have been experienced differently by different groups of people. We've spoken about this many times. But, the difference reflects wider inequalities in our society. It's clear, for example, that people living in crowded accommodation without access to green and blue space will be more likely to experience longer term problems than people who have been able to shelter in large houses with gardens. Given this, can I ask you, Minister: will you be looking at expanding green and blue space requirements for new developments in planning? And, finally, will you be looking at how you could retrospectively improve access to those spaces for existing estates, for example, by increasing protections for those spaces against new developments and ensuring that we regard access to these green and blue spaces as a right? 

Yes, Delyth, I'm really interested in doing that. So, there are some short-term things that we have learned in the course of the COVID-19 pandemic. So, for example, even at level 4, we are asking our local authorities to work very hard to make sure that parks and playgrounds stay open where it's safe for them to do so, and they have the staffing that makes that possible. We know that not everywhere in Wales, because of a number of local issues—. It will not be possible to keep every park and playground open, but we've asked them to keep them open where at all possible, so that, particularly, people in built-up urban areas have the parks that ought to be available still available to them. I know that local authorities have very much taken that on board in learning from the earlier parts of the pandemic.

Also, one of the things that I'm very sad about is that we lost the ability to put Part L of the building regs into effect in this Senedd term. Again, there was cross-party agreement. I think that David Melding was the spokesperson on the Conservative benches at that time, but there was a lot of agreement between yourself, me and him about what was necessary. And, of course, that is all about space, standards, and access to good quality environment. Again, I don't think it's controversial. I very much hope that we'll be able to do that—that all the major parties, anyway, in the Senedd will be able to include that as part of their manifesto commitments, so that we can do that as speedily as possible once we are through the pandemic and we have some legislative space to do so.

In the meantime, of course, we are very keen that people understand that they do need to get outside, even in built-up urban areas where it's difficult. You will be aware of the medical advice to take vitamin D supplements if that's not possible. I would like to reiterate that advice, given the opportunity to do so.

I will, with pleasure. We will commence implementation of 'Future Wales' when it is published in February, to ensure that it has positive impacts on well-being, prosperity and decarbonisation. In mid Wales, progress on strategic planning will take an active role in delivering progress towards 'Future Wales' outcomes.

Thank you for your answer, Minister. Beyond the merits and drawbacks of onshore wind energy, which I think is probably more a matter for your ministerial colleague, the implementation of the national development framework has significant ramifications from my perspective, in terms of the balance of power between central and local government—concerns that I have got long-held views on. You would recall, perhaps, in June 2011, just after you and I were first elected to this place, there were many thousands of people coming from mid Wales on dozens of buses to protest then about the damage—as they saw it, and I saw it too—to swathes of mid-Wales countryside.

In England, it is local councils and communities that have the final say on these kinds of developments, and the lack of adequate scrutiny underscores my original fears about the top-down nature of the national development framework, which ultimately gives those powers to Ministers here for themselves. What can you say to allay the fears of local communities who do feel that the NDF does not adequately reflect local democracy decisions?

So, I think that's a complete misunderstanding of a plan-led system that we have here in Wales. I understand, Russell George, that you are trying to put a good spin on what's happening in England, but I would take the exact opposite view, in fact. The deregulation that's being proposed in England takes away all of the community involvement in the planning process. In fact, once the designation has been made, you can pretty much build anything you like in the zones designated for development. I think that the recent developments politically over the border, with the protests of a number of Conservative MPs from shire counties about that exact point would underline the point I'm making.

Here in Wales, we have a plan-led system. The plans are extensively consulted upon, and they are subject to all the scrutiny processes of this place and of the democratic consultation process. Then, it is a national spatial strategy for 20 years. We have also, of course, put in place the regional arrangements that will allow regions to come forward with their regional development plans, aligned with the national development framework, or 'Future Wales' as we want it called, and of course with 'Planning Policy Wales'. I've made the point a number of times in this Chamber that none of these documents is a stand-alone document. They have to be read as a suite of documents across the piece. 'Planning Policy Wales' is also widely consulted on, and of course is the basis on which local authorities make their local development plans.

So, what we will have—and I've acknowledged many times that we started, perhaps, in the wrong place, at the bottom end—. It would have been much better to start at the top end. But we've got the national spatial strategy nearly there. It's still going through its Senedd scrutiny processes, and I've received very helpful recommendations from the Senedd committees on the latest version of the plan, and we'll be considering those before we publish the final version in February. This will allow the regions to come forward with their regional strategic plans, and of course they will be widely consulted on locally as well, and your constituents will have an enormous number of opportunities to feed into those regional plans for their region, because, of course, we don't want the regions of Wales to all look exactly the same; we want them to have that local flavour, and that local input. And then, of course, they translate into the local development plans, where local people have a big say.

Also, you and I sat on that committee together, and looked at the Planning (Wales) Act 2015. And you'll remember that I was vehemently opposed to the removal of the village green safeguards, and we had a number of spirited discussions about it, and I'm very pleased to say the planning Act in Wales upheld safeguards for village greens. So, you cannot put that into the local development framework and then apply for planning permission. At this point in time, you can still claim village green status for that. Delyth Jewell raised, didn't she, the access to green spaces with me. My own view is that often the first time that the people locally, who use the village green, understand there's a development proposal for it is when the signs go up on the local lamp posts. So, saying that they should have known that when the local development plan was put in place I thought was disingenuous. So, I'm personally quite proud of the fact that our committee made that recommendation and the Government held to it.

Thank you. The Welsh Government is already playing a significant role in improving public engagement in politics. Through legislation, we have extended the voting franchise and made provisions to reform public participation in local democracy. And in support of this, our forthcoming communications campaign will encourage citizens to engage with politics through participation.

Thank you for that answer, Minister. And, yes, you have put through a number of significant changes to the local elections system, some of which you've actually mentioned today. But there has been an opportunity missed, though, that would have increased engagement from the wider electorate, which is a more proportional electoral system for local councils. Now, I know that your legislation allows for local authorities to adopt the single transferrable vote model, but it doesn't compel them to, and it doesn't even compel them to ask their electorate if they would like that system in place. I don't think any council in Wales is going to adopt a more proportional system voluntarily, because, basically, those in power are always very reluctant to change the voting system that got them there, for fear it will deliver different results next time. So, really, the inclusion of the option to hold an STV election is pretty meaningless, isn't it? Without making it mandatory, it looks like you're cynically using the democratic system to protect your friends in the council chamber, who no doubt deliver leaflets and knock on doors for you in return. So, Minister, will you consider options to force local councils to use a more proportional electoral model, or will voters be stuck in perpetuity with the current system?

Well, Michelle Brown, I completely refute the premise that you base your question on. I don't think using the word 'compel' in a conversation about public participation does you or anybody else any favours. So, I do not agree with compelling local authorities to do things—they are themselves democratically elected institutions. What our Act does is empower local authorities to make their own decisions, where they wish to do so. And of course, the Bill also increases a large number of public participation methodologies, which will allow them to consult widely and involve and include their local residents.

We're also, of course, very involved in our increasing diversity in democracy schemes. And the Bill also sets out a number of things that we think will enable more people to come forward to stand at election for local councillors, including remote access to learning, to meetings, remote access to officials, and of course strengthened guidance on assistance for local councillors in carrying out their case load and local roles.

I think all of us in our time as elected Members will have been bowled over by community campaigns instigated by individuals coming together to fight either for or against something that matters profoundly to them. Loads in South Wales West, but just one—'Save Our Fields in Brackla is campaigning currently to retain the only extensive green space in this settlement, which is home to around a quarter of Bridgend's population. It's a perfect example. Now, that's engagement in local politics as well, and exercised frequently in a way that exposes problems with competing Government policy aims. And not all campaigners want to stand for election themselves, of course, but what might Welsh Government do in order to ensure that consultations are meaningful and properly promoted, and that people like Save Our Fields in Brackla feel that their voice really matters, that it's taken seriously?

Yes, and I completely agree with Suzy Davies that many people first have their first taste of politics—small 'p'—because they campaign against the closure of a local playing field or the opening of something they don't like locally, and they get a sense for how their voice can be heard coming together as a community. So, I think we share a common like, if you like, of that kind of community action, which I am very keen on facilitating, if that's the right word.

So, each local authority has to set out a public participation strategy to set out clearly how they promote awareness of the work of the council and how its decisions impact on people's lives, and they also explain how individuals can access decisions and make representations to the council, and, importantly, how they can make those views known in good time so that they impact the decision that they're concerned about. As I said in answer to a previous question, that isn't the point in time that a sign goes up on the local lamp post saying that you've got only a few days to make representations; it is about awareness, more broadly, of how you can get your voice heard. And so each local authority will be under a duty to promote that public participation scheme as widely as possible and to give access, both in person—so you can attend in person, once we're over the COVID regulations of course—but also electronic access, phone access and so on, in order to allow people to get their voice heard, and we expect them to have those strategies in place and report annually on them for the scrutiny of both their own councils and of the Senedd. 

The one area where the public get engaged is planning applications. The big problem is that unpopular planning applications, such as houses of multiple occupation over the limits set by supplementary planning guidance are refused by the council but allowed by planning inspectors. Does the Minister agree that ending planning inspectors overruling councils' planning conditions and making failed applicants go to judicial review instead is the best way of improving public engagement and getting the confidence of the public?

Well, Mike Hedges will know that he and I have had a couple of sparring matches on this point over a large number of years. So, he knows I don't agree with him on that, which I'm sorry to say. Applicants can appeal against refusal of permission, where an independent inspector then checks the decision of the local planning authority against local and national planning policies and any other material consideration raised. I absolutely recognise the point about local plans, local strategic areas, HMO strategy areas and so on—there are a number of them—strategic design orders and so on.

We have got a good relationship with all of our local authorities in Wales, and where I've been asked to do so—and I'm very happy to invite such a request from any other local authority—the planning inspectors have been able to work with officers from those authorities to understand what the evidential requirements are in order to defend an appeal, in order to make the decision in the first place, and, indeed, in order to strengthen their particular design orders or HMO restraint orders, or whatever it is they're doing, so that they don't get overturned on appeal. And, in fact, actually, we've produced statistics, because there is a perception that more get turned over on appeal than not, and we've produced statistics that show that that's not so. 

Thank you, Joyce. I committed in November to support of £35 million of investment to deliver 470 new innovative affordable homes, which adds to the 1,400 homes already funded under the innovative housing programme to date. That takes the total support over the last four years to over £125 million.

I want to very much welcome the Welsh Government's approach to that innovative housing programme, which this year has focused its funding on modern methods of construction. You've already said that £35 million of investment will go to local companies, and I think it's worth repeating that it's local companies and their supply chains, and that's a welcome boost during these uncertain times. And I'm even more pleased that a number of those are bringing much-needed work into my region during what is, undoubtedly, a challenging time. 

Minister, have you any idea how many training and apprenticeship opportunities you anticipate will be created with this programme, and, clearly, if you can't give me an exact answer now, I look forward to one in the near future. 

Thank you, Joyce. I know of your passion for getting apprentices into the construction industry and, in particular, a more diverse group of apprentices, including your championing of women in construction for many years. You'll know I share your enthusiasm to do that. 

I'm really pleased that the innovative housing programme has placed Wales at the vanguard of housing innovation and creativity within the UK. We're investing £45 million into the modular housing industry in Wales this year alone, which generates potentially hundreds of new local jobs and training opportunities with Welsh small and medium-sized enterprises and their local supply chains. Modern methods of construction—and I know you know this already—is a new industry that shows itself able to attract an increasingly diverse workforce, including encouraging more women and younger entrants into construction. It's new and better social housing, but it kick starts a whole new industry that plays an important role in the economic green recovery.

So, we expect that the materials and components used in this next generation of MMC homes will have a Welsh-first approach and preference is shown towards materials and labour so more—ah, got my tongue in a twist—materials and labour sourced locally within Wales, before seeking alternatives from the wider global economy. And we've been working really hard with the MMC providers through the innovative housing programme to both maximise the Welsh supply chain and the number of jobs and training opportunities that that supply chain generates locally as a result, so that the homes built locally will be built by local people for local people. 

Thank you, Paul. We have been consistent in our message that social housing is our top priority. Our aim is to build better social homes, more of them, and more quickly. I am really proud of our record £2 billion investment in housing to support our delivery of over 20,000 affordable additional homes in this Assembly term—sorry, Senedd term; I beg your pardon.  

Thank you for that response, Minister. Now, recent figures tell us that poor housing costs the Welsh NHS around £95 million per year in the first five years of treatment charges and costs Welsh society over £1 billion a year. Now, we can't afford to lose sight of that as, clearly, investing in good quality housing demonstrates there is a proven return on investment in health benefits. Therefore, can you tell us what the Welsh Government is doing to improve energy efficiency in its housing projects going forward, and what other measures is the Welsh Government taking to address the health costs of poor housing in Wales, and especially in Pembrokeshire? 

Absolutely, Paul. I completely agree that good housing is the bedrock of good health and a good life. We absolutely agree with that. In Pembrokeshire, the local authority has received £6.397 million-worth of social housing grant, and £1.142 million of housing finance grant for affordable housing schemes. That includes £2.4 million for two schemes in the Preseli constituency, which provide 20 more homes. The social housing grant allocation for 2020-21 is £3.928 million for affordable housing schemes. So, it's a significant investment. And the reason for that investment is exactly as you set out, because we know that getting people into good, affordable, warm housing makes a huge impact on both their health and their well-being. 

We also have a number of schemes that are in the portfolio of my colleague Lesley Griffths—Nest and Arbed and so on. And I'm particularly proud of the optimised retrofit scheme, which I've recently announced, where we are working with a number of social landlords and councils across Wales to look at optimising how we can retrofit existing homes in Wales, learning the lessons of the Welsh housing quality standard. Whilst very successful indeed, it did have one or two lessons that we needed to learn from it, and that is that one size doesn't fit all.

So, that scheme will bring forward a range of different housing from across Wales. The examples I've been given are Victorian terracing, for example, in the Welsh Valleys, as against the between-the-wars or 1970s-style housing you see in my own constituency, for example. And it's obvious that a retrofit scheme for that housing won't be the same. So, the programme will allow us to optimise the retrofit, to build up the skills and the industry necessary to roll that out across all tenures of housing stock in Wales in order to give everyone, no matter what their tenure, the warm and affordable home that they require. 

A themed set of questions today, Llywydd. Yes, Mark, increasing the number of homes being built, particularly for social rent, is a fundamental priority for this Government. We've made record levels of investment in housing and I'm confident of delivering our ambitious target of 20,000 affordable homes during this term of Government.

Well, the COVID-19 pandemic has delivered a sharp shock to the UK housing market, with the number of new homes registered to be built in the first three quarters down in all UK nations. However, Wales was starting from the lowest base. Last year—the highest year for UK new home registration since 2007—the numbers in Wales fell by over 12 per cent on the previous year, and the number of new homes built by 13 per cent to the lowest number since 2012-13. Social housing stock in Wales only increased 1 per cent, with just 1,288 new social housing or homes built.

How do you therefore respond to the statement by the Back the Bill campaign, backed by the Chartered Institute of Housing Cymru, Shelter Cymru and Tai Pawb, that Wales is in the midst of a housing crisis—demand significantly outstrips supply, many people are unable to afford homes in their local communities—and its call for a right to adequate housing in Wales, and to calls across the sector for the next Welsh Government to deliver 20,000 new social homes during the next Welsh Parliament term?

Yes, Mark, I absolutely share your commitment to building a large number of social houses as fast as we can go. Housing is a key priority for the Government and that is why we've made the record investment of £2 billion in housing during this Government term. We've also been consistent in our message that social housing is our top priority, which is why it makes up the single largest element of our commitment to deliver the 20,000 additional affordable homes during this term of Government, which I'm very confident we have done.

The shame about the pandemic is that we would have overstripped that by some way if it hadn't been for the pandemic. But, nevertheless, in contrast to the stats that you've just read out, our latest statistical release—the Government's statistical release—shows that local authorities reported 2,592 additional affordable housing units delivered across Wales, which is a 12 per cent increase on the previous year and the highest annual total to date. A total of 13,142 additional affordable homes have been delivered from 2016 to 2019, and early indications are that 2019-20 will see a significant increase on the improved delivery of 2018-19. In 2019-20, we invested over £137 million in social housing grants and over £25 million in housing finance grants to support the provision of social housing across Wales. And a further £89 million has been budgeted this year.

In addition to that, we're investing £75.1 million of revenue funding over 29 years under the affordable housing grant programme to support local housing authorities to build new council homes. Around 400 new social homes are expected to be funded through this new initiative across Wales. We've already provided councils in Wales with £40 million to support property owners to help bring their empty properties back into use, and to date, we've invested around £90 million in innovative housing solutions under our innovative housing programme. This year's programme sees a further investment to accelerate our ambitions to build high-quality, energy-efficient, low-carbon social homes at scale and pace. And I recently announced £25 million for the IHP modern methods of construction special fund, as I just discussed with my colleague Joyce Watson, and a £19.5 million fund for the optimised retrofit programme, which I've just outlined in this answer.

Our latest new house building in Wales stats for October to December 2019 were published on 5 March 2020. During the 12 months to the end of December 2019, a total of 6,129 new dwellings were started, which is up 2 per cent on the 12 months to the end of December 2018. And during 12 months to the end of December 2019, a total of 6,071 new dwellings were completed, which is up 4 per cent on the 12 months to December 2018.

Finally, question 8, Mark Reckless.

I will do so with pleasure, Mark. Local authorities have played an absolutely pivotal, key role throughout the COVID-19 pandemic, in providing support to individuals, businesses and communities across Wales, particularly to the most vulnerable.

Thank you, Minister. We have quite a number of relatively small local authorities in Wales and two of the very smallest are in my region—Merthyr Tydfil and Blaenau Gwent—and they coincide with some of the very highest levels of COVID infection currently. And I just wonder, is the Minister sure that they will be able to cope with the extent of that challenge, given the small size, and are there arrangements in place for mutual aid or support from other local authorities or from Welsh Government should that be required?

Yes, we work very closely with all local authority leaders, elected members and chief executives in Wales. Just this morning I had a meeting with all local authority leaders and chief executives to discuss aspects of the COVID-19 pandemic. I'm absolutely grateful to them on behalf of the Government. I cannot say enough about the efforts the front-line staff have made across every local authority in Wales, regardless of size, in their efforts to keep their populations fed, housed, safe and protected. We absolutely continue to work with them to protect the vulnerable and learn lessons.

We've supported their operation ability by reducing statutory requirements relating to meetings and proceedings, where necessary, and we've worked closely with our third sector and voluntary sector partners to provide local tailored support to communities in need. Mutual-aid provisions have been invoked by local authorities. Interestingly enough, not necessarily by the smallest local authorities, because each one has different problems, depending on how the pandemic hits them and at what stage and where. The figures change very quickly. So, in my own particular health board area, Swansea and Neath Port Talbot, the figures there are hardly something to write home about, and they're some of the biggest authorities in Wales. So, it's not a question that size matters in this particular instance.

Nevertheless, we continue to keep a close eye, with them, on their resilience and their ability to cope, and we continue to manage the finances, through the hardship fund, with the co-operation of the Society of Welsh Treasurers. I'm really, really proud of the collaborative way that we've worked together, as local authorities and the Welsh Government in Wales, both at politician level, across party divides, and at all the official levels that you'd expect, right down to the front line, where the workers have been exemplary.

Thank you, Minister.

The next item is topical questions. There are two topical questions today. The first is to be asked to the Minister for economy, and to be asked by Mick Antoniw.

Yes, of course. The job losses that have been announced are a devastating blow, particularly at this time of the year, and our thoughts are with everybody employed at the site. We'll do all we can, alongside the Department for Work and Pensions, in ensuring that support is available to those affected.

Minister, just over one year ago, a long-established family firm, Rhys Davies Logistics, based in Taff's Well in my constituency, was acquired by Cathay Investments, an English-based company with interests in logistics, chemicals, many other areas. The new owners described it at the time as the deal of the month, saying that it

'will enable RDL to flourish into the future...and we are confident that exciting times lie ahead.'

So, barely a week ago and barely a fortnight before Christmas, the loyal workforce in Taff's Well and other depots turned up for work, only to be kept waiting in the cold for several hours and then handed their redundancy notices and told they would not be paid. The only option is to apply to the UK Government's Insolvency Service for payment, and this may take many months.

Now, the way these workers have been treated, Minister, is a disgrace, and it does expose the poor state of employment rights in this country. What is coming to light is a company that appears to have been either grossly mismanaged or deliberately run down, where workers have been furloughed on a rota, whilst, at the same time, agency workers were taken on to do work of the furloughed workers in what may be an abuse of the job retention scheme. Minister, I've written to you about this, but I wonder whether you will carry out an investigation into what has happened at this company, to be sure there's been no abuse of public funds and to ascertain the reasons for its sudden collapse. I am certainly grateful for the speedy response of your officials in meeting with me the other day, and the work being done by Unite the Union to support their members.

So, what support can Welsh Government give to prospective buyers for this company, and in particular, what support can be given to the workforce? Minister, I know that employment law is a reserved matter, but will you consider ways in which Welsh Government can, in future, give support to workers who are faced with such dire treatment? I know that the Wales Trades Union Congress have, in the past, raised the idea of what I'd call a workers' solidarity fund; maybe in the current economic circumstances, there's merit in revisiting this proposal. So, I wonder if you would give this your consideration in support of the workers at Rhys Davies and others in the future.

Well, can I thank Mick Antoniw and say that there has clearly been a terrible treatment of loyal employees at this particular site? We are very, very concerned by some of the allegations that have been made against the company, particularly the allegation of misuse of the furlough scheme. I'd very much encourage Mick Antoniw to write to the UK Treasury regarding the points that he has raised today, and also I can assure him that my officials will be raising this matter with the Treasury as well.

Mick Antoniw raises a number of important points, including the support that could be offered to individuals and prospective buyers. We are keen to learn of any possible salvation for this company, so any potential buyer should make contact with the Welsh Government, and we'd examine what support we'd be able to give them. In terms of support for employees though, of course we've got a raft of measures in place that are going to be available to those affected, including, crucially, the ReAct programme, and other schemes, including personal learning accounts. We'll be working very much with the Department for Work and Pensions in ensuring that affected workers get all of the support, guidance and advice that can possibly be given.

Now, in terms of the suggestion of a solidarity fund, I think this idea does merit consideration. We have the social partnerships approach here in Wales, which enables trade unions to help shape support packages, and I'd very much encourage the Wales TUC to bring this potential scheme to the attention of my officials, so that it can be discussed at a future social partnership council.

Thank you.

Thank you, Minister, for your response to this topical question. It is, obviously, hugely distressing to see such a major logistical firm cease trading—170 vehicles, 150 articulated trailers and a warehouse operation that spans across nine sites across the United Kingdom. And especially at this time of the year with the uncertainly, it's vital now that the help that you've identified from Welsh Government is made available to any of the employees who are calling out for that help. There is support within the local area. I, myself, today have been acting on behalf of some constituents who worked for this company, putting them in touch with other employers who have vacancies, and so hopefully other jobs can be found. But, have your officials been able to make an assessment of whether this is a unique set of circumstances for this one company or whether there are wider logistical problems within the sector that will cause problems for other companies, and that you are responding to those alarm bells that might be ringing across the transport sector?

Well, can I thank Andrew R.T. Davies for his questions? I'd share the sentiments that he has expressed regarding how distressing this news is for affected workers. Of course, we do have the additional £40 million available for the COVID commitment. It's specifically designed to help people who are in a position of those at the company right now, and that COVID commitment includes a significant increase in spending on schemes such as the personal learning accounts and the apprenticeship programme. We also have the regional response teams that are available to support workers, to try to identify alternative work as well for those that are affected, who have a similar skill set to those opportunities that may exist right now.

In terms of the logistics sector, as a whole, the logistics sector has struggled with staff retention and recruitment in recent years, and I think it's fair to say that, according to reports, the sector has struggled to find people with the appropriate skills. So, there are opportunities out there. It would appear to us—I can't comment on some of the allegations that are being made regarding the management of this particular company in recent times—but it would appear to us that what has affected this company is isolated to this company, and it is not an infection, if you like, of the whole of the logistics sector. Of course, we have teams in the Welsh Government though that are looking very closely at this particular company, to ascertain whether there are any common themes in terms of some of the problems that they've experienced. If so, we'll work with the likes of Logistics UK, representative bodies, to ensure that the Welsh Government, alongside the UK Government, because this is a UK-wide sector experiencing UK-wide challenges in terms of skills retention, to make sure that we are all providing the support that's necessary to give the sector some resilience during an incredibly difficult period.

Thank you, Minister. The next question is to be answered by the Minister for Health and Social Services, and the question will be asked by Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Thank you. Wherever feasible, the NHS will strive to continue to deliver essential services for both diagnostics and treatments, based on clinical priority and timeliness. Our NHS will continue to risk assess patients on an active treatment list, to ensure that those with the greatest clinical need are seen as a priority in line with national clinical guidance.

Thank you. I'd like to make a plea on behalf of two organisations in response to your statement last week on NHS COVID pressures and new frameworks being put in place to deal with those pressures. The fear from Cancer Research UK is that the Welsh Government has issued a framework here that allows for local health boards to downgrade some key services, including elective cancer surgery and non-urgent, but hugely important, diagnostics. And remember, they've consistently argued for the stepping up of services to address the cancer backlog, a key recommendation made by the cross-party group on cancer last month too. They're concerned that lessons from the first pandemic wave haven't been applied.

The Royal College of Nursing make a call that, on the face of it, could almost be seen to contradict that, but it really doesn't. What it does is highlight the complexity of the situation we face, as you well know, and the need for very clear Government guidance to get us through that complexity. What the RCN said in a public letter to you is that severe workforce pressures, the overstretching and sheer exhaustion of staff and the simple reality of there being a lack of registered nurses available to work in some parts of Wales now means the pausing of non-urgent elective care may once again be necessary, just as in the first wave, and they say so with a heavy heart.

What both Cancer Research UK and the RCN very much have in common here is a view that there has to be absolute clarity from Welsh Government on the context in which decisions are taken by our health boards. Now, local options, as spelt out in the framework, are all very well, but can the Minister ensure with urgency that there's clarity on when the limiting of non-elective work should be triggered, for example, so there's consistency across the NHS, and what services, including in cancer diagnosis and treatment, we simply cannot allow to slip in this very serious second wave?

I thank the Member for his question. I think, with respect, we have already addressed that in what we've said. I understand the fears of different service and interest groups, and I understand very well the position the RCN have taken. They're right that they and all of us should be concerned about the reality of staff absences. I've just come from a call with health boards and local government leaders from across the broad south Wales area, and the Aneurin Bevan health board have just confirmed that they have a staff absence rate of 11 per cent. Now, that has a significant impact on our ability to provide services, and if you're having that sort of staff absence, then you can't carry on providing all services.

It also means that it isn't an option for that health board or for others who are facing up to similar challenges to continue opening extra provision with the staff that they have, and so, there are very real challenges. And, again, if you were talking to local government leaders, they'd also be describing the sort of pressures they have with staff absences too, and we know that police and crime commissioners and chief constables are facing similar pressures too. So, that's why we've introduced the framework of action.

It isn't just about individual health boards making a choice for themselves and ignoring other services, because we know that mutual aid is already taking place. Cardiff and Vale health board, for example, are already assisting Cwm Taf Morgannwg health board to manage some of their pressures. We know that cancer services often take place on a regional footprint. There are a range of other specialist services that take place across health board boundaries, and the message that I've been giving and health boards have been reflecting back is that, within the choices they are making to manage local pressures, they are already sighted on the challenges for regional services. Regional services have yet to be affected by any of those choices, but health board chief execs talk regularly about this. There was a conversation yesterday at the NHS board, chaired by the NHS Wales chief executive. There are regular means for people to have those conversations across the services.

I should say, for people to understand the concern about cancer services, cancer services are being maintained where it is safe to do so. It's that point about the safety of the service. So, cancer services are not being downgraded. We are having to manage against the real pressures that we face, and it is entirely possible that, in the near future, I may need to make a national decision about how services are managed. We do know, though, that the position in Hywel Dda is rising, the position is different in Powys, because they commission their secondary care, and we know that the position is slightly different in north Wales too. So, if I were to make a national choice at this point, that might affect people in north Wales, in particular, who might be able to manage some of those services for an extended period of time. But I'm afraid that if coronavirus rates continue to rise in the manner they do, then we will see a time when we may need to go back to where we were on 13 March with a national choice on services. We're not there at this point in time, but I take on board the Member's constructive points. We should not lose sight of the fact that local choices have to be considered within a wider context.   

Thank you for the answers so far, Minister. Could you update us on the state of the health boards that have not so far suspended elective surgery? We know that two in Wales, Aneurin Bevan and Swansea Bay health boards, have both cancelled elective surgery. You alluded in your previous answer that you'd just come from a meeting about staff sickness within the NHS, so could you please give us the most up-to-date position? Because obviously the suspension of elective surgery in any health board has a dramatic impact on services provided to patients who have obviously had the expectation to be seen.

The two health boards that I indicated earlier in the week have made public their choices to restrict some services—not just elective surgery but a range of out-patient appointments and others as well. I think it is entirely possible that we will see other health boards needing to do the same. And I refer to 'needing' to do the same—not wanting to but needing to—because of the very real service pressures. So, as I indicated in my answer to the Plaid Cymru spokesperson, we've already seen Cardiff and Vale assisting Cwm Taf Morgannwg with some of the pressures that they're facing, and it's important that mutual aid does exist across our national health service.

I think it goes to the heart of the first question about making sure that health boards don't operate in an isolated fashion where they only think in a very narrow way, but to understand the broader impact. And that, too, has to be a consideration for the impact on the Welsh ambulance service as well, because the way that pressures are managed will have an impact on the ability to get to people in the community, to manage the emergency calls that they are taking and then to move those people to the right place for their care to continue. 

So, as I've indicated, the up-to-date position is that Aneurin Bevan are reporting an 11 per cent staff absence. I'll want to provide more figures to Members and the public on staff absences. I don't have a list to give you exactly on each and every health board, but people should not be surprised to see rising staff absences across each health board, in line with community transmission that we know is taking place. The R rate is going up across Wales, the threat level is rising across Wales; that's why the First Minister made the announcements that he did today.

On elective care and other planned care, I recognise that there is harm caused when that is delayed. There is nothing pleasant about putting off treatment, which will cause anxiety for people, even if they understand and support why it's being done. If you're living with discomfort, then it may not be of much comfort to you that there is someone else in even greater need. But that is why our NHS is making these choices. That is why, as health Minister, I've endorsed the NHS having a framework to help guide those choices. Because the need is so great and we have people who will need care that could be the difference between long-term disability or the difference between surviving and not, and those are the choices that we are engaged in making. So, that's why I'm supporting and have endorsed that framework of action, and I'm afraid that there are more of those choices to come in the weeks and months ahead. 

Can I just start by saying that I'm not in any way criticising the NHS staff in the Grange hospital in my South Wales East constituency? They are doing an incredible job under extreme pressures at the moment. But I've had doctors, GPs, contacting me from the catchment area for the Grange hospital saying they are terrified for their patients they are sending there as they deem the Grange to be unsafe and unfit for purpose. As well as us obviously seeing now patients waiting in car parks for 17 hours with life-threatening illnesses, and people waiting in ambulances for extraordinary amounts of time, what is also apparent, from not just the COVID cases rising, is that the infrastructure at the Grange hospital is not ready. It is not coping. There are not enough beds, there are not enough staff, the internal phone systems are not working properly, and also the hospital is not set up to receive cars. And when there was an entire fleet of ambulances outside the hospital last weekend, it needs to be set up for cars, it needs to be ready. These systems, these internal processes are clearly not ready. So, what urgent action are you taking, Minister, to ensure that the Grange hospital is fit for purpose?

With respect, I disagree with most of what the Member has said. I think there's a misunderstanding of the mission of this hospital, there's a misunderstanding of the severity of the threat that the health board faces and the choices that they are having to make with other partners to make sure they are prioritising the interests of patients in the greatest need. The Grange University Hospital was never set up to receive essentially what the health service would call 'walk-ins'—people who deliver themselves to an emergency department. It is set up to receive our sickest patients; it is not set up to receive people who want to drive themselves there. It is not like a normal local district general hospital in that sense; it was never set up to be that like that. As other Members from the Gwent area, I'm sure, will recognise, that was not the Clinical Futures plan and not the mission of this hospital. So, I think with respect, the criticism is misplaced.

There have been some teething problems—there was a problem with the telephony system—but more broadly, the reality is that the hospital is facing an unprecedented tide. This is a once-in-a-century event. The additional pressures that we are seeing are what has led to the extraordinary choices that mean that treatment is being interrupted or withdrawn in a range of areas to protect the interests of people in much, much greater need—people whose lives could be lost otherwise. The hospital is as fully staffed as it can be with an 11 per cent absence rate across the health board. That, with respect, isn't the issue; the issue is can we keep enough of our staff fit and well and able to attend, so service choices are not driven by a rising tide of staff absence. I'm sure the Member will have engaged with the direct briefings that the health board I know has provided to Members from the Gwent area to set out all of the detail of what lies behind this. I hope the Member will engage in that in the way that we continue to engage within this Parliament so that all Members are operating from the best available information.

The Minister actually has covered a large part of the area I was going to ask about in his answer to Laura Anne Jones. I've also had similar concerns represented to me, Minister, not about the Grange university being unfit for purpose or not suited to the role that it's designed to carry out—I think, as you've just said, it's built for a specific purpose, and at the moment, it's having to deal with an extraordinary situation. However, there are some concerns about the number of COVID cases there and the fact that it's had to respond very quickly to a changing situation without, possibly, the capacity that a hospital that had been there for a long time might have been able to develop very quickly. So, will you confirm that you are going to keep the situation under review, that you will liaise with the health board, and if the COVID situation does deteriorate over the next few weeks, that that hospital and the health board will be able to cope with the situation?

To be fair to the Member, the hospital is actually in his constituency, although it's in Torfaen local authority. The reality is that there is a bigger critical care unit within the new Grange University Hospital, and the health board are looking to surge and provide extra provision around critical care. The key limiting factor is staff, and we come back to this difficult conundrum; if you have need at the greatest level and you have reducing staff cohorts, you can't produce more staff immediately, and then you have to decide where to deploy those staff to address the greatest level of need. And that means that you need to move staff from other areas. Those are the difficult choices that not just the Aneurin Bevan University Health Board are facing, but health boards right across Wales, and indeed in another parts of the UK. So, that is what the health board are considering doing.

I can give the Member the assurance that the health board will continue to take all of those professional judgments about how and where to deploy staff to the greatest effect, given the significant need that exists. I will continue to work with not just the Aneurin Bevan University Health Board, but health boards across the country as they face those choices, and if there is a need for me to make national choices as a Minister, then I will not shirk in my duty to do so. But I think it's really important that all of us continue to take a constructive evidence-led approach, and I certainly do hope that Members across the political divide are engaging with their local NHS as they offer regular briefings to Senedd Members to understand what the picture is locally and how that is leading to them needing to make significant choices to help keep Wales safe.