Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru

Okay, let me welcome everyone to this meeting of the Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee. Item 1 on our agenda today is introductions, apologies, substitutions and declarations of interest. In accordance with Standing Order 34.19, I have determined that the public are excluded from the committee's meeting in order to protect public health. In accordance with Standing Order 34.21, notice of this decision was included in the agenda for this meeting, published last Thursday. The meeting is, however, being broadcast live on Senedd.tv, with all participants joining via video-conference. A Record of Proceedings will be published as usual. Aside from the procedural adaptation relating to conducting proceedings remotely, all other Standing Order requirements for committees remain in place. The meeting is bilingual, and simultaneous translation from Welsh to English is available. I would remind all participants that microphones will be controlled centrally, so there's no need to turn them on or off individually—merely accept the prompt to unmute, when it appears.

And I'm very pleased to welcome Mandy Jones, Member of the Senedd, who has joined the committee. Welcome, Mandy. We have one apology for absence from Dawn Bowden MS, and Jenny Rathbone MS is substituting for Dawn, so welcome, Jenny, also. Okay, are there any declarations of interest? No. Okay. Well, only one further matter then, before we move to item 2, and that is that the committee has agreed that Huw Irranca-Davies MS will temporarily Chair if I drop out of proceedings for a technological reason or any other reason.

Item 2, then—our inquiry into COVID-19 and its impact on the voluntary sector, and our seventh evidence session. I'm very pleased to welcome today Jane Hutt MS, Deputy Minister and Chief Whip, and one of Jane's officials, Chris Buchan, head of community and third sector policy for the Welsh Government. Welcome to you both. Perhaps I might begin, then, with some initial questions before other committee members come in with further questions. Initially then, how effective, Minister, do you believe the voluntary sector has been and has been utilised during this emergency response to COVID-19?

Thank you very much indeed, Chair, and I do very much welcome this inquiry that your committee is undertaking, because I think the profile of the voluntary sector and the role it has played are absolutely critical. I'm sure all of you, as constituency Senedd Members, will know how proactive the voluntary sector has been in terms of responding to the pandemic. So, it's really from two perspectives: it's the actual third sector organisations, the voluntary organisations, who've responded, and then, alongside and as a result of that, the volunteers who've responded in such large numbers, who perhaps have never volunteered before.

But just perhaps to say quickly that, if you think about the voluntary organisations that have responded, many of them are actually providing front-line services alongside local authorities, health boards—particularly crucial in terms of health, social care and housing, I'd say—but also I'm thinking of the advice services. And, indeed, it's those front-line services, like the violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence, the VAWDASV, services, who are actually at the front line. And very, very quickly, particularly after the lockdown back in March, the voluntary sector was ready, willing and engaging with us in order to deliver an emergency response and, of course, then all of it followed through in terms of enabling the third sector infrastructure to respond and engage with us nationally, regionally, locally, but, most importantly, the beneficiaries, the people who actually depended so much in our homes and communities and streets on that voluntary response—and those are the ones who really are the beneficiaries. 

Okay. Minister, could I just ask you, then, in terms of the effectiveness of the voluntary sector during this period, to what extent Welsh Government has helped identify challenges that the voluntary sector has faced and, indeed, helped them overcome those challenges, with, perhaps, digital exclusion as one possible example? 

Well, of course, the whole thing has changed—the whole world has changed so much, hasn't it, in terms of digital engagement. The fact that so much has now moved from the face-to-face contact— and, of course, that's critical to so much of our third sector organisations, that face-to-face engagement to provide services. But also they themselves—those voluntary organisations—have had to change the way they work, and move from face to face to all of the digital connectivity, the virtual. Instead of the face to face, it was the phone call, the e-mail, the text. So, that has been a big change, a big challenge, for the voluntary sector, and then for citizens, for individuals themselves.

So, what we had to do very quickly is help with the funding to help organisations get the right equipment to enable people to work at home. Giving an example of the advice services—so, I don't think any of us have been into our Citizens Advice offices that used to be on the front line; I had my surgeries in them up until the lockdown. So, everyone had to go back and work remotely. So, we enabled, particularly through our voluntary services emergency fund, providing support to organisations to get that equipment to help set them up for moving away from the face to face. It does actually—. In a sense, we already had a policy about trying to improve digital inclusion as a Welsh Government—no citizen to be left behind as we embrace that digital-first approach. So, actually, digital inclusion's had to be at the heart of the emergency response. And the voluntary sector have really—it has been a big issue and challenge to them, but they have been remarkable in the way that they've responded.

And also I think many will have examples of how local groups have got iPads and they've equipped people—citizens—so that they can communicate. Because I think digital exclusion has led to difficulties, in terms of people who haven't got computers at home. That could lead to more loneliness and isolation. So, it has been shown just how important being digitally confident is, and that, of course, isn't about a piece of equipment, it's actually about training, how do you use this piece of equipment. And I think that's been a real challenge. But the Digital Communities Wales—Digital Confidence, Health and Well-being whole initiative has had to really respond to this, as have all those organisations who've got people who are very vulnerable and who haven't been engaged with computers. And still, the phone—the actual telephone, the landline—and the mobile have been critically important, but that is where we've had to put money to help the third sector with funding for that purpose.

I wonder if I could ask you a little bit about planning for emergencies such as this pandemic. Obviously, it's been a crisis, to some extent. It obviously wasn't foreseen, but there are always Government plans for emergencies, including pandemics. Do you think it might have been more structured, the planning, and particularly in terms of the role of the voluntary sector? You know, that role of the voluntary sector and how clear it is in terms of helping to respond to emergencies—might that be more structured and organised from a Welsh Government level in the future?

Well, of course, with this pandemic, no-one was going to be ready or prepared for what has happened and how this has affected all of our lives, but in fact I would say the third sector—. We're very fortunate in Wales, and I know if Ruth Marks or anyone from the WCVA have come before you, they will have said, 'Well, the fact that we've got a third sector infrastructure in Wales, which they haven't got in the same way in England, has been a huge positive', and that we have an investment in a Third Sector Support Wales scheme. We have a third sector scheme that has been with us for 21 years, so there has actually been a structure there, not just in terms of the structure of it and how we engage with the third sector nationally and regionally and locally, but a whole investment portfolio as well.

So, I would say that, obviously, there are ways in which we need to learn from the pandemic in terms of strengthening that response to emergencies, but interestingly of course, just before the pandemic, we had the flooding. And I think the response from the third sector, particularly locally, and that's what's so important, to the flooding—and it's still ongoing, sadly, because so many places have had that experience of the flooding and then been flooded again—has been absolutely phenomenal. So, it's about how resilient is the third sector. Locally, volunteers and third sector organisations just get stuck into it, don't they? I remember going to Llanhilleth in Blaenau Gwent after the flooding, and the local chapel, church, community centre, had just become an absolute focal point for the community. So, they wanted to know, 'Well, what could we do to help financially?' and we looked to the community facilities programme, which you will all be aware of, and we've repurposed that as a capital one-off project funding investment. We've repurposed that. We've extended the criteria to not just respond to flooding issues but also to the pandemic as well. So, some of that funding has gone to some of the equipment that's been needed—we've just been talking about digital inclusion. But I think that does go back to, also, how nationally, regionally and locally we've managed this partnership together.

What I've been keen to do as Minister, and particularly raising my voice at every opportunity, is to show how critically important the third sector is alongside the Welsh Local Government Association—so, the WCVA, the Welsh Local Government Association, the health service—and that kind of resilience that you need, that it's got to be acknowledged that the third sector is at the forefront of it, and we could not have managed through this pandemic without that kind of infrastructure, without the fact that we had a platform for Volunteering Wales that people could register, that they very quickly then—. The Volunteering Wales platform—. And that we also, as a result of the pandemic, strengthen things like safeguarding policies, because obviously that was something—. And I remember in the very early days a recognition that we needed to ensure that both the beneficiaries and the volunteers had to be aware of safeguarding. All these things must be captured in the lessons learned and in your review, I think, of how we quickly, often, not just invented but found new ways of responding to the emergencies—funding, safeguarding, infrastructure, contacts. We have, across Wales, our county voluntary councils, critically important, meeting regularly, and WCVA meeting with Welsh Government, meeting with Welsh Local Government Association. All of that has been really important in terms of the fact that, in Wales we have a third sector partnership scheme, we have third sector funding arrangements, we have Third Sector Support Wales, and it has stood us in good stead. But we can learn lessons as to how the third sector was able to be so flexible and responsive, and embed that in the way forward.

Okay, thank you for that, Minister. Mark Isherwood.

Thank you. Good afternoon. Prynhawn da. We've received evidence about a wide range of partnerships that have developed during the pandemic. You referred to Ruth Marks, and she told us that these relationships should be hard-wired so that they could be maintained, whether that's with Welsh Government, local authorities, town and community councils, health boards, other voluntary sector bodies, and whether it's national household charities or small local groups. Can I ask you what is your definition of partnership working?

Well, partnership working is about—. Well, first of all, in terms of values and principles, Mark, you won't be surprised we share a commitment to partnership working, which means respect and ensuring that you facilitate in terms of resources to make that partnership work, and that, actually, you allow that partnership to be a fair partnership so that not only do we learn, but, actually, we co-produce, as you so often espouse and I completely support, the way in which we develop policy. But, actually, in Wales, through the third sector partnership scheme, we've had that partnership. It's been enshrined; it was enshrined in the early days of the Assembly. So, Welsh Government has been meeting formally through the third sector partnership council, and that's the key vehicle, really, with representation from all of the different sectors, on a regular basis. And, actually, that third sector partnership council has proved itself to be absolutely indispensable, I would say, as a result of responding to the pandemic. But, I mean, there are lots of other ways in which that then feeds through to local partnership, and that has to be, I think, in terms of the question and the Chair's former question, making sure that the third sector is properly acknowledged and hard-wired, as they say, into national, regional strategic co-ordination groups, as they were, and the local resilience forums, as they were, and they have increasingly been seen to be absolutely crucial to it. I've heard people from local government saying, 'Can I just say how important third sector has been to us in this community, in this region?' Certainly, I heard that from the Gwynedd Council voluntary service, who said that, actually, as a result of the pandemic, relationships have improved across north Wales, and you may have seen that yourself. There are always things that can improve, but they've actually developed a very strong respect for each other to deliver services, because the third sector are supporting some of the most vulnerable, hard-to-reach people, as we know.

Well, thank you. We've heard some very positive stories. We've also received stories indicating a varied picture. We also know that, from the evidence we've received in some areas—and you refer to VAWDASV, for example—there was a slow start, although everybody acknowledges things have improved. How effective, therefore, do you feel the existing voluntary sector infrastructure that you refer to has proved, and how robust, at national, regional and local levels?

Well, I think the third sector partnership scheme has proved to be very robust, particularly, if you like, as it was very much established at a national level for Welsh Government to engage with, through the third sector partnership council, with those sectoral interests, as I've said. So, I've met on a number of occasions with the third sector partnership council. For example, also they've met twice with the Counsel General when he was working towards his recovery plans, the reconstruction plans, which, of course, he announced and presented to the Senedd. But then, also, that's been reflected at a regional and local level, and I think that's where they've become more important, if you like—the light that's been shone on the regional and local engagement, whether it's the blue light services, the health boards, local government. They know what their local and regional needs are, and the third sector has, critically importantly, had to be there, and I think that needs to be reflected very importantly in the scheme.

But I think also, in terms of your questions about the ways in which the third sector could learn lessons, improve and move on in terms of this, it's also about—. Just on the recovery, there is a third sector partnership recovery group, and that has been very important in learning about the way forward and about resilience. I think it is about understanding whether there are things that we could learn from or improve, perhaps, for example within the Welsh Government and more cross-governmental, third sector engagements about volunteering, particularly. What's very interesting is that we ended up with volunteers through health, social care, housing. At a local level, the councils for voluntary service have just been extraordinary, and you will probably have had evidence from them about their role, but I think the third sector recovery sub-group, which is also looking at funding as well as relationships and the way forward, is critically important to learn from in terms of the infrastructure.

Thank you. What work have you done and will you be doing to look at the differential approaches across the 22 counties and even more at some of the localised good practices that have developed? How do you believe that, therefore, co-operation and engagement with the voluntary sector might be improved, or, as Ruth Marks said, hard-wired, going forward, using those national, regional and local networks and forums, celebrating what works well, but also learning where we could do things differently in the future?

I think it's very interesting, again, looking at, particularly, for example, the work we've done with the recovery sub-group, the third sector partnership council recovery group, because we got an update on progress earlier on this month, for example, in the volunteering area, and they recommended that we establish a broad-based volunteering partnership, a cross-sector leadership group, to support and champion volunteering across all the principal sectors, and also that we look at the existing Volunteering Wales grant programme. Now, one of the interesting things that's happened as a result—and I go to the local now, Mark—at a local level is that the county voluntary councils have themselves—. We gave them funding in order for them to reach out and fund many local voluntary groups that were set up just to respond to the pandemic. So, I'm sure, in north Wales, you will know of many examples where very local groups were set up. In my constituency, they call themselves local COVID groups, and then volunteers came forward and they did very local things, whether it's just the shopping, the prescriptions, the neighbourhood support. But, actually, the CVCs have streams of funding that could actually support those groups. Sometimes it might have been to help them with a bit of publicity or some expenses provided to volunteers, and those CVCs, their partnership with local government, every local authority at every level, has been vitally important. Obviously, it's not one-size-fits-all; you're not going to have exactly the same relationships developed at each county council and county voluntary service level, but I think relationships have been developed there that we've got to sustain. They have got to be hard-wired into the whole local infrastructure, and sometimes it goes regional as well. I remember Gaynor Richards speaking to me recently, from the Neath Port Talbot CVC, about how actually as a result of the pandemic, working relationships with the health board had developed enormously, and that was with more than one authority. So it would be with the Swansea council voluntary service as well. So, it's—. Apologies for a moment, I've just got a problem. I'm back.

So I think there are some fantastic examples across Wales of that local resilience and relationship development with local authorities. I don't know whether you're actually speaking to local government as part of your review at all or whether they've given evidence, but I think we shouldn't put these—. In many respects, this is about Welsh partnership. So what the third sector does and how you review it is very much also in the context of how has local government changed their view of the third sector and the importance of volunteers, who they had to go to, to the local voluntary bodies, and say, 'Right, we need this number of volunteers. Can you get them? Can you train them? Can you support them?' So it has been vitally important that that ability for the CVCs to be able to provide funds, direct support, advice, guidance, and cascading down money from Welsh Government, through WCVA, to all of those groups has been very important. 

Thank you. We've talked about partnership working and co-operation, and many of these partnerships have been about the voluntary sector locally, local groups and local government co-operating together. You also mentioned co-production, which, of course, goes massively beyond that. It's about designing and delivering, and then monitoring and improving services together. So, what is being done to ensure that the voices of citizens are being heard as services are developed, designed and then delivered?

Well, you know you're preaching to the converted here, Mark, in terms of my commitment to the citizen's voice and to co-production. I think what's happened as a result of the pandemic is that we've strengthened the opportunity for representative organisations to give their views directly from people with the lived experience, and then to actually influence policy. This is a partnership, actually, that is delivering services and policy in practice. But that's where my responsibility for equalities crosses over with my responsibility for the third sector, because I think this is one of the best examples.

You chair the cross-party disability group, Mark, and I've appeared before it and contributed to that. But I think the disability equality forum and, indeed, the Wales race forum, of course, as well, have had just about a whole new vibrant life during this, and vitally so, because they have been at the sharp end of the impact of coronavirus. So, very early on, we brought the disability equality forum together—in fact, I've had five meetings with them—to talk about the impact of the Coronavirus Act 2020 and what this would mean for social care. And you'll know that we've had this consultation now on Schedule 12, but also brought them in to ask them about test, trace and protect, to ask them about the impact of face coverings on their lives, to ask them about what it means in terms of remote working, working from home, and actually saying, 'Well, you will influence policy', having the chief medical officer at the disability equality forum. And of course, all of those organisations that come to these meetings are third sector organisations. They're from voluntary organisations. What I've been looking forward to is getting more people engaged who are actually living the experience, so we've got more disability activists involved in the disability equality forum as well as the more formal organisations who have the funding to be able to represent the views of disabled people.

And, then, I think, at local level, the CVCs themselves have seen the benefit of learning from, and engaging with local groups and systems. But, of course, to a certain extent, they have been at the sharp end of just delivering services. And I think that's where there's a whole different layer of citizens' influence, if you like, that we've seen, and that we need to feed back as well. But, at a national level, well, we go on to the impact of the coronavirus on black, Asian, minority ethnic people. Immediately, we saw the need that we had to engage with BAME people, and clinicians and professionals, for them to guide us as to how we respond to the pandemic because of the impact on them. And, actually, we're now doing a report on the impact of coronavirus on disabled people.

So, I think it's absolutely critical that that is acknowledged. I worked, many years ago, for the Tenant Participation Advisory Service, which was actually all about dialogue with people, not just consultation. It's dialogue in order to make change.

Thank you.

Thank you, Mark. Thank you, Minister. Huw Irranca-Davies. 

Thank you, Chair. Good afternoon, Minister. You've touched on aspects of volunteering already, and the volunteering that has taken place already has taken several different forms. There are individuals who have helped their neighbours and their friends who needed support. There are self-help groups, as you say, mutual aid groups, who've established themselves, some under the banner of COVID response, and others who've mutated from local youth organisations into COVID response. And then there's the more formal process of volunteering, where people have put their names forward onto lists that have been organised regionally or nationally. And we all sing the praises of what's happened, quite rightly, because the response has been incredible. 

But, if I could ask you to look back on this, we know what we did well and the immense outpouring of enthusiasm and goodwill to give of people's time and effort and expertise. Looking back on it, what do you think we've learnt; what would we do differently; what can we take forward as lessons about how to organise and co-ordinate volunteers from your perspective, sitting in a ministerial seat?

Thank you very much, Huw. And, of course, I do think—. You will have acknowledged it, as you have, the extraordinary outpouring of volunteering that has happened as a result of the pandemic. And I think it's worth just reminding—you've heard the statistics before—that, as of 2 November, the Volunteering Wales platform had 34,038 volunteers registered, and 20,716 registered since the pandemic. And many of those have not been volunteers before. And it's interesting that there's diversity in that volunteering: there are actually more women volunteering, and there are BAME people volunteering. Part of this is to get feedback from them as to what they feel has been the impact of volunteering, and I want to do some kind of review from that sort of experience of volunteering, because we want to sustain that volunteering. And I know that you, with your local CVC, will know that—from Bridgend, Bargoed—they will be saying 'How do we keep these volunteers?' Actually, some of them, I understand, certainly locally for me, they kind of died off a bit in the summer, in August, and now they've come back to engage. 

Can I also just mention that, sometimes, you have to recognise volunteers more formally? And I'm very pleased that the WCVA has awarded the best voluntary sector organisation for output to Butetown Community Centre, and that Cardiff third sector council has acknowledged Steve Khaireh of Horn Development as the volunteer co-ordinator of the year. So, I think I would be wanting to go to them to see, 'How did you get that fantastic output?'

But, I think it's improving the infrastructure, as you say, Huw, that is the way forward. And that's where I've established the third sector's—I've mentioned it once already—partnership council recovery group. They're going to report to me in December; they are very hard-wired into the volunteering force that we've got. And we're looking at an update for that; key recommendations, I think, have been, as I've said, a broad-based volunteering partnership, cross-sector leadership group to support and champion volunteering across all the principal sectors. I've mentioned the internal cross-Government volunteering policy group that we are developing, but also looking at the volunteering Wales grant programme. So this is going to be new learning, but it's being taken forward at pace. And as I said, the group's responding to me in December, with my officials' support.

Okay. Could I just bring Jenny Rathbone in at this stage, Huw, before you go on with further questions? Jenny.

Thank you very much. I think it's very important that everybody is able to volunteer, not just those who are able to self-fund their volunteering, but people who've been out of work or are losing income because they're less called upon at work. So I just wondered what thought had been given by the Welsh Government to ensuring that volunteers' expenses are always covered when volunteers wish to make a claim. Is there some way we could do that without it being a bureaucratic process, without obviously just seeing money disappearing to the ether? Because it seems to me that this is such an important issue—that everybody should be able to volunteer.

Absolutely. And in fact, I think I mentioned earlier on that some of the funding we've provided through the voluntary services emergency fund went not just to organisations themselves—specific organisations providing services—but also to the county voluntary councils, and they have funding streams. Health boards also have funding streams. You may know that the integrated healthcare fund, that kind of provided. The National Lottery, Comic Relief, they and lots of big trusts, like the Moondance Foundation, enabled local groups to deliver local volunteers. So, for example, earlier on in the pandemic, I don't know if you remember—John will remember—that in Newport there was a wonderful initiative, a shop opening, I can't remember what it was called, with volunteers going out, providing food. Immediately they came on television, saying, 'We're doing this', we got GAVO—the Gwent Association of Voluntary Organisations—to go in and meet with them, to help exactly with what you were saying.

Because, actually, many of the people who have come forward to volunteer haven't had their own means and incomes to enable them to do it. But expenses are eligible within volunteer expenses, and those who've needed to claim have been able to do that. Obviously, you have to look at some of the issues around benefit claiming and criteria, et cetera. But I've been very impressed by the youth volunteers as well. Lots of students, who were doing virtual learning, and during the summer period, and through the summer, were actually leading voluntary efforts as well. And of course, they wouldn't have had other incomes.

So it's crucially important, particularly as volunteering is such an inclusive initiative. And I know I'm not doing it today—tomorrow we've got the interfaith statement—but the amazing arrangements that many of the mosques had—and probably in your constituency—of volunteers coming out, following Ramadan, right through Diwali, everything. It's absolutely crucial that they have been able to do that. But people have their own personal hardships, and that's where volunteering expenses are crucial.

A very excellent reassurance—thank you, Minister. I just wanted to ask what the Welsh Government is doing to encourage all voluntary organisations to use the outdoors as a place to offer services in a much safer way than anything we might be doing indoors. Because it's not part of our natural culture to do stuff outdoors, and there are lots of things that can combat loneliness that can take place outdoors, even if it's—. It can be under canvas or whatever.

Yes, and I think, ironically, in the early days of volunteering, in responding to the pandemic, particularly with people who were shielding, it was very much volunteers coming to the door and not coming into the house, because of social-distancing arrangements. I think that that is an area of policy that I would like to look into a bit more, because I think the opportunities for environmental third sector organisations—many were constrained by the pandemic and by restrictions.

Certainly, I recently joined a group, Barry Action for Nature, who were planting trees, and they had a rota of volunteers. So, they knew they couldn't have the usual big group that came along, so they rota-ed through the day so that they could be socially distanced in planting trees. And I think that you'll have seen that throughout Wales.

But I do think there's been a lot of engagement with the third sector and many of the disability groups in issues like how to understand—it's back to the policy issue about access and learning about access and the changes that have happened in our streets in order to make sure that disabled people have an influence on those changes in our street as well. But I think the environmental network of third sector organisations—certainly, if I get any more information, I can feed it back to you, Jenny, and to the Chair.

Thank you.

Okay. Thanks for that. And Huw.

Yes, it's only one additional question because I think you've covered a lot of ground there already and in your previous questions and answers as well. I just wonder, is there anything, Minister, with your responsibilities that you've got in the back of your mind, about how we can normalise volunteering far more? The massive outpouring we've seen in response to an emergency and in response to a crisis has been incredible, it really has.

We know that, in the run-of-the-mill situations when we're not in a crisis like this, some companies are very good at giving days off for volunteering, some employers are very good at that. Some schools are very good with certain groups of pupils, but not all pupils and not on a regular basis. So, I'm just fascinated, Minister, as we've looked at this and seen the energy and the enthusiasm, whether you've got something in the back of your mind that you might be thinking about.

Nationally, there's been talk about things such as putting more structures within the school environment and within the work environment. There's been talk about a national volunteering service—in different countries now, by the way.

Yes.

Are we missing something here, do you think? I'm genuinely asking—genuinely asking.

Well, I think we have got the infrastructure, which has stood us in good stead when it came to the need to expand and reach out for volunteers. So, many people have come into volunteering and found a whole new world of new contacts, relationships and social contacts, but also a lot of upskilling of the people who may have to change their—have had to, as a result of the pandemic, lose their employment and change and move into other areas of employment.

So, the use of Volunteering Wales as the official platform—and I've said about the guidance on safeguarding, the links to the local councils' voluntary service, the training, and it's very scrupulous because, obviously, that's crucial in terms of the impact with beneficiaries as well. And also because they're the ones who can reach out and advertise for volunteers. So, I think there is something that could come out of this and I hope your inquiry will help raise the profile, because it can be taken for granted.

And I'm sure, as you will recall in terms of being a Minister with these kinds of responsibilities, often you have to—. I have to make sure that the third sector and equalities are remembered, because business and local government are powerful statutory bodies, but they cannot do without the third sector. They couldn't have managed without the prescription service that was organised with the British Red Cross; Age Connects Wales and Age Cymru with older people—. So, I think we could perhaps come out of this—your inquiry and learning from the Welsh Government, how we can make this resilient and sustain it. That's certainly the message that I've got. In fact, someone called it 'a voluntary surge' and it is. Doesn't it say something about Wales, I think? It is reflective of what people want to do in their neighbourhoods. But we will do what we can in terms of learning those lessons and recognise it's the beneficiaries—the people who have actually benefited from the volunteering—who are the ones who so often want to say 'Thank you', and we need to find ways of then getting that message back. I've mentioned a couple of awards schemes. Sometimes, that's quite good, having national and local recognition of that kind. 

Okay, Huw?

Yes, thank you, Chair. Thank you, Jane. 

Okay. Delyth. 

Diolch, Cadeirydd. Good afternoon, Minister. Thank you for the evidence that you're giving us this afternoon. I've got a couple of questions about funding and support for the sector. As you've been alluding to already, the types of support that the sector needs, it isn't all financial. It can be in terms of guidance and clarity and, indeed, resilience support, because of the various challenges that so many volunteers and organisations are having to face at the moment. How effective do you think the Welsh Government's support for the sector has been in this crisis situation, in all the guises of support that we've been talking about, in terms of value for money, but also in terms of the social impact of the support that's been made available? 

Thank you very much, Delyth, and that's such an important question. If we talk to the sector, and you have, funding always is a crucial first-past-the-post for them. They need to make sure that they can deliver that kind of underpinning support for volunteers and for those support services. They are front-line services, many of them.

So, I think it is important just to acknowledge again that, very quickly on, we did announce this Welsh Government £24 million package of support, back in the beginning of April, for the third sector, but, of course, guided by the third sector as to what that needed to be, and our officials working very closely, so making sure that it was partly the voluntary services emergency fund and voluntary services recovery fund. Now, a lot of organisations are very keen, because that's actually about enabling the third sector to refocus on activities to support recovery.

And, also, the third sector resilience fund, and that's helping them through the crisis, because we've also got to recognise, and it hasn't been mentioned, a lot of third sector organisations have lost—they might have gained some funding from us to respond to the pandemic, but they've lost a lot of income. They've lost income from charitable giving. The charity shops have closed down, they've opened up now again, but they have lost income. And, actually, I have to say also, at the last third sector partnership council it was mentioned by members that they'd lost out because of the furlough scheme and they were very upset that it hadn't been brought in for our firebreak period in Wales. Obviously, it's back now, but we should have had it when we needed it for our firebreak.

But I think you need the funding to help a lot of the organisations like the Council for Voluntary Service, the Wales Council for Voluntary Action, all the national organisations and, then, locally, to help with things like—I've already mentioned safeguarding, I've mentioned training, and then retaining and motivating those volunteers to stay involved. But I think the recovery fund is really important for the future, because a lot of them are now thinking, 'What's going to happen next?', 'What's going to happen in the next financial year?', 'What's the funding going to be like? We're just shortly going into budget discussions.' And as well as the loss of income and then the response to the pandemic, they want to think about, 'Where are we going for the future?'

I think it's interesting when you look at what they've done with some of the funding. For example, Mind is an organisation that has been very important in terms of mental health. We've given Neath Port Talbot Mind a grant to fund a counselling co-ordinator to recruit and develop 12 student counsellors, because we know how difficult this has been for young people. They actually have got a target to reach 288 beneficiaries. So, all the funding that we're giving has very clear outcomes in terms of what's anticipated. But it is going to be a matter of how—. I won't repeat myself about looking at ways we could be more flexible with our voluntary funding grants. We were very flexible early on, so we said all the monitoring is very important about the spend, but we can be flexible about the different priorities and criteria. Funding flexibilities is one area that we need to look at.

Now, the other thing that we have to always do is to help the third sector access other funding, and that's trust funding—National Emergencies Trust funding—et cetera. But I think you're absolutely right; it isn't just about funding. It is about how the Senedd, your inquiry and the Welsh Government can actually embed this whole population of volunteering enthusiasm and giving—it's all about giving, isn't it—into the recognition—. I think the respect for the voluntary sector, from local government, from the health service, as well as, obviously, from Welsh Government, has just been so strengthened by this, and that's what I want to see.

Diolch. Thank you for that. The other question I had is about what you want to see happen in the future, and you've touched on that. You were talking about the greater flexibility that you'd like to see in terms of how grants or funding are awarded to support the sector. What conversations are you having with representatives from the sector at the moment, looking towards what needs to change in the immediate term, then, in terms of potentially greater clarity of guidance for the sector, and also for the medium term? Because, I suppose, one of the main challenges that this sector, like all sectors, is facing at the moment is that no-one quite knows how long they're going to be in this situation. No-one quite knows for how long they'll need to be reapportioning how they work. And, obviously, a lot of things that can happen outside in the summer months are not as possible over the winter. So, what do you think needs to happen differently in terms of support, both quite soon and also in the medium term?

Well, I think the very early question—I can't remember if it was from John or Mark—was very important about how the third sector have got much more involved in the strategic forums that exist, the regional and local resilience forum, and the regional strategic co-ordinating committees. We must ensure that they are kept in those arenas of policy, because, yes, they may not be meeting every—. They were meeting every day at the height of the pandemic, and they are, obviously, now beginning to regroup a lot because of the second wave. But we must make sure that the third sector is properly embedded into those. Certainly that's what we're saying, and the local resilience forum, because they're discussing recovery, they're discussing reconstruction, they're discussing priorities in terms of budgets. But we also need to look at the whole—. I've mentioned the recovery group. We need to start analysing and evaluating the social value of volunteering support, and it's interesting that one organisation, Mantell Gwynedd, is doing a piece of work on the social value of support. We're following that up with their chief officer, because we've got to prove the social impacts of the work that they've done. But the original criteria and focus—the 'four pillars', as we call it, of support—for our councils of voluntary services that we fund are volunteering, good governance, sustainable funding, engaging and influencing. Well, probably those pillars are still very robust in terms of all the issues that we've discussed today, but I think we've got to be more flexible and enable them to be more flexible. What that means in terms of funding—. There's going to be some refocusing of staff, for example, in some of the voluntary organisations, so that—I mean, they may be co-ordinating local volunteer response to the crisis.

And then there's some new organisations, all these little COVID groups that have set up. There are quite a lot of new groups setting up around food poverty as well, and these are partnerships, and I'm very glad to hear that local government is engaging with the third sector. It's not always the third sector having to ask, 'Can I join your group or your policy engagement on this?' The third sector is leading on some of these initiatives.

So, I think we've got—. But I've also said that we've got to be flexible in terms of our funding sources, like the community facilities programme, and I would also urge you all to think, in terms of your constituencies and regions, that this is a fund that can help community centres, places of worship, but also those affected by flooding, to get engaged. But I also think that we have got to tap into these wider trust funding opportunities. I know that the third sector will say to you, 'We do want to build on what we've delivered,' and we want to rethink our purpose as well, and we've got to be ready to respond to that.

Diolch.

Okay, Delyth. Diolch yn fawr. Mandy Jones.

Thank you, John. Afternoon, Minister. You've just mentioned Mantell Gwynedd as one thing. Talking about the reconstruction and recovery, how do you see the role of the voluntary sector in the reconstruction and recovery post COVID? Or even carrying on during COVID, because, as you said previously, we don't know when it's going to end.

Yes. Well, we've got our recovery sub-group of the third sector partnership council, Mandy, and so it got stuck in quite early on, when Counsel General Jeremy Miles came to meet with them to say what their priorities would be. I think we are in a very good place, because of the ways in which we've already got an infrastructure there, we've already got funding arrangements, we've got councils of voluntary services, and you will know them in your region—very, very strong and robust, and I did mention earlier on, in answer to Mark, in north Wales, they feel that they've actually strengthened their relationships across the whole of the region, and we must make sure that those are sustained and that we've not just learned from them, but we sustain them.

But I think, as I've said, really, probably—I wouldn't repeat myself—this is about making sure that the funding that we've made available can be flexible and can move into the new needs that are coming forward from those organisations. So, new relationships, and one of the things that came forward from the Gwynedd CVC from Bethan was the fact that they've managed to work with the local housing association and to get volunteers to work with virtually every tenant in their housing association—they're the registered social landlord—to help them through very tough times of need, and that's a sort of mutual partnership, which may not have been thought about before the pandemic. But now there are pressures; I've mentioned food poverty issues, but there are pressures for people who have lost employment, who perhaps never thought they might have to claim universal credit, who haven't accessed advice services before, and we will need to make sure that we do reach out to them. And the advice services we haven't mentioned very much, but are absolutely critically important—the single advice fund—as we move forward to stop debt developing. Because there is household and personal debt, which can lead to homelessness if we don't get in there.

We haven't mentioned the word 'prevention' have we, Mandy, but we all know that prevention is part of the great strength of the third sector. The third sector knows that it can get stuck in there—early intervention, prevention of that kind of build-up of need in individuals' homes and households, but also in communities. And that's where I feel that we've got a real strength coming forward, but we'll use all our resources and our guidance to ensure that we pave the way.

Thank you, Minister. I think you've basically answered my second question, actually, because I was going to ask you in what ways the voluntary sector can support other public services—you know, you mentioned the housing in Gwynedd again—in the future, and what role can the Welsh Government see for the voluntary sector post COVID. You've given us quite a lot of answers there.

Yes. I mean I haven't—. Thank you for that, Mandy. I haven't actually mentioned, and it may be just worth, for the record, saying that, in terms of supporting need and working with the public services—and it is preventative, because people might end up needing social services or healthcare—with the voluntary services emergency fund, 156 organisations supported 6,262 volunteers, and helped 764,000 beneficiaries. And we wonder what would happen to those beneficiaries if they hadn't had that voluntary intervention. There are a lot of very good statistics. The recovery fund—71 organisations supporting 1,280 volunteers, 111,000 beneficiaries. So, this is not something that ever reaches headlines, is it? Because it's actually very positive and it just happens, and people think, 'Well, that's great', but I'd love to broadcast it a bit more.

But I think the third sector resilience fund is the answer to your question—it's about where do we go from here, how can we strengthen the fundraising and donation income. Because that's something that is very important as well—that there's been a loss. I'm sure that the committee will be looking at wider sources of funding that can be available, and I think one of the things that—. At the start of the crisis, we were very clear that we would be there to provide advice and support for organisations who received our grants, in recognition that they might not be able to meet every aspect of an award letter, for example. So, that's another question about flexibility and being able to learn from the experience. 

Thank you, Minister.

Could I just ask you about that, Minister? Because I think we've heard during evidence that, out of necessity, really, some of the usual bureaucracy hasn't been applied during COVID-19, and this has been quite beneficial, and local authorities, for example, have been speedy in their action and flexible in their approach. I just wonder what your take is on how much of that we could retain for the future if it's an easier, a better and quicker way of doing things, or to what extent it was necessary during the pandemic, but we need perhaps more rigour around process post pandemic? 

Thank you, Chair, for that question, because one of the reasons why we're setting up this cross-Government policy group on volunteering is to—. We do have a grants centre of excellence in the Welsh Government, so that provides advice and guidance to all departments, but we need to look at and take stock of how it's gone, because there has been funding coming out from different ministerial grant schemes, and to see what has been the impact of being able to be more flexible in terms of criteria for grant giving. I think we have to be very wary. We have to be aware, if not wary, of good governance issues, because we also know that, in terms of third sector organisations, WCVA's key role, and CVCs', is about helping the voluntary sector be robust in terms of their governance, trusteeship—. Obviously, the Charities Commission has much stricter rules and expectations now in terms of how they deliver, so we can't relax it to the point where we then put at risk not just funds but also volunteering opportunities. But I think we can certainly learn the lessons from that, from the past year, just to see whether we can be more flexible in terms of grant giving.

But it is certainly—. We're considering all areas, different areas, of ways in which we can support. The third sector, as you will know from your local organisations at a local level, are always providing training on how to be a good trustee, how to get funds, even how to chair a committee. These are really important. We mustn't lose sight of the fact that some of that hasn't just—. We've had to pause that, but we need to strengthen the third sector and find a way forward to do that, and I hope that that helps in terms of looking forward to the—. I mean, many volunteers now—I have to say, finally, from me on this point—for them, this is important for their mental health and well-being. Actually, especially if you've been through a very difficult time and also maybe your employment is insecure—. A lot of people who volunteered were furloughed, and they'd never been not working outside of the home before; volunteering has brought back purpose and morale to many people.

Okay. And just in terms of the training, Minister, I wonder whether you've given any thought to the new virtual way of doing things, the actual digital skills required as well as the equipment, because we have heard from the voluntary sector that having that sort of training for their volunteers, and perhaps including in that some of the issues around the regulations and the requirements as you go through the pandemic and change occurs—keeping up to speed with that—is very valuable in this new situation.

I think that very much follows on, really, from what I've been saying about reconstruction and recovery, and ways in which we may need to look at our funding sources to develop that and take that forward, so that we can strengthen those skills and underpin them. I know Chris has been sitting very quietly in this session, and I wondered, Chris Buchan, whether you'd want to contribute anything here, if there's anything further I could have said on this.

Chris.

Thank you, Minister. Thank you, Chair. I think a number of the issues that you've mentioned—. There is the third sector partnership council funding and compliance sub-committee, which we can use to take forward a number of your comments, specifically around funding and how we can look at the criteria and the flexibility going forward.

Yes, and I think, probably—. I've got to come back in now. Can you hear me, Chair?

Yes, thank you, Minister, we can.

I think your point about the next stage for the infrastructure in terms of training and governance we'll take back to the recovery group, because, actually—this is also where it links to local government and the health service and indeed police, as well—there can be some ways in which the digital, virtual training and learning could perhaps be shared. Because some will have more resource than others, and perhaps if we've broken down the barriers, particularly between local government and the third sector, we can open up that virtual learning and also make equipment available. And sometimes—. It doesn't have to be venues, of course—physical venues—but there are ways in which you can have virtual learning and training where, I think, we can ask the other sectors, including the private sector, I would say, for this to be part of their contribution to a social responsibility.

Thank you for that. Mandy Jones.

Yes. Could I ask you, on a final point, about something you spoke to John about in the beginning, please? You've come up with some fantastic numbers of volunteers who are coming forward and that, and you did mention the internet and things like that for these meetings and that. How are you going to cope, or how have you coped so far, with people who have previously been volunteers? A lot of those volunteers will have come from the same background a lot of the time, from my experience, as the volunteer sector that they actually go into, like homelessness and things like that. Those people, if they've been in that position, a lot of them will not be able to have internet access and that. How are you keeping those people in the loop, who haven't got that internet access, who've usually done it before face to face—how are you coping with that? Because you're numbers have gone fantastic for volunteering, you know, and especially through Zoom meetings and things like that and Teams, but how are you going to keep those who haven't got internet access who still want to do that?

Yes, I think that's very important, Mandy, because, in the early days with the shielding, some of those volunteers were on foot, weren't they, or they were driving, they were delivering, they were knocking the door and they were picking up the prescriptions. They still had to communicate, obviously, just to get their instructions for the day as to where they were going and how they were going to engage. So, I think the digital infrastructure is crucially important, and that's why it does link, across the Welsh Government, to this digital confidence, health and well-being initiative. And maybe it would be helpful, Chair, if I gave you a bit more information in writing about this, because they're devising training and support for front-line staff, volunteers and organisations to engage with and develop the digital skills of citizens. This is to help them access services in response to the pandemic. But, as you say, it's moving from the traditional face-to-face to e-mail and to more virtual support for organisations. So, I think it might be helpful if I could get you a written update, because they've changed their priorities to move much more now into responding to the pandemic.

It's interesting that Barclays have got an initiative called the Digital Wings initiative—Barclays Bank. They aim to empower and support their employees to thrive in an ever-changing digital world, and they can be accessed by third sector and charitable organisations. So, we're actually getting a bit more information about that and maybe we could provide you with some follow-up support, some information.

Sorry to come back again on this, Minister, but the ones I'm worried about are those who have volunteered before, who are actually falling through the cracks, because they can't afford internet access even if you helped, or other people helped them get it; they can't afford that bill per month, but they'd still like to volunteer because they've been there before.

Well, yes, and that's where the people who know those volunteers—they've signed on to the Volunteering Wales platform, but there are also the local councils for voluntary service—they know who those volunteers are and they want to keep them and sustain them. They have been able, through our grant schemes, to provide equipment.

I think your point about the bills, then—you know, it's not just a piece of kit, is it, it's the ongoing costs—is very valid. That actually goes back to Jenny's point about expenses, because it's no longer, possibly, that they need expenses in terms of travel; it might be more expenses in terms of just the running costs. So, if I can get some more information about that, we'll certainly follow it up.

Okay, thank you.

Thanks for that, Minister. Just one final question from me on communication. We've heard from some in the voluntary sector that, although there were regular meetings with Welsh Government, local government, voluntary sector umbrella bodies and others—and those were very useful and they were very grateful for them—sometimes, in terms of the changes to restrictions, you know, local lockdowns, perhaps, and then moving on to a national lockdown, that they weren't given the information that they needed about the changes quickly enough. And, sometimes they didn't feel that they had enough detail to inform their volunteers, and they found volunteers becoming demotivated as a result—confused and demotivated. They understand that this is really difficult, because, you know, we're in the middle of a crisis, and sometimes change is necessary at short notice, but they just wondered whether any learning lessons from the experience, whether anything more might be done. They felt that, sometimes, people at the meetings informing them weren't themselves informed as to what decisions were being taken right at the top of Welsh Government. They understand the difficulties, but they just wondered if anything more might be done to overcome those difficulties.

I'm grateful for that point, because I can put this on the agenda of the third sector partnership council recovery group and the third sector partnership council, because it is a fast-moving policy arrangement, and, obviously, with the restrictions and then the lifting of the restrictions, the easing and then new arrangements, communication is vitally important—it's vitally important that we get this right. And we're in a period now where I think Welsh Government has got through their communications project, initiative. They've managed to get the frequently asked—. I tend to point, to all partners and constituents, to the Welsh Government 'frequently asked questions'. Some of these, you have to keep up with the questions, and it's not always about meeting with the forums; it's about actually working with them at a very local level. So, I think if we can put that on the agenda of the next meeting—communications—that would be very helpful.

But I think, again, that goes back to digital communications, and I think social media is very important as far as this is concerned, and also press and publicity. So, I think another message that's come back for me today is that I need to make sure that the social media profile of our Welsh Government communities Twitter feed is ensuring that all that information gets through. And also, it's great when I've got questions and statements. I've got, tomorrow, questions and a statement where a lot of these issues—. Then, people are more aware of them.

Okay. Well, thank you very much for that, Minister, and thank you for coming along to give evidence to committee today, and thanks to Chris, your official, as well. You will be sent a transcript to check for factual accuracy in the usual way. Diolch yn fawr.

Diolch yn fawr. Diolch.

Okay, then. Our next item today is papers to note, item 3, and you will see that we have five papers to note. Is committee content to do so? Yes. Okay, thank you very much.

And the next item, then, is an item to move into private session—to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of today's meeting, under Standing Order 17.42(ix). Is committee content so to do? Okay, thank you very much. We will then move into private session and we will receive confirmation shortly.