Y Pwyllgor Llywodraeth Leol, Tai a Chynllunio
Local Government, Housing and Planning Committee
05/11/2026Aelodau'r Pwyllgor a oedd yn bresennol
Committee Members in Attendance
| Carmelo Colasanto | Cadeirydd y Pwyllgor |
| Committee Chair | |
| David Hughes | |
| Elyn Stephens | |
| Marc Jones | |
| Mike Hedges | |
| Peter Fox | |
| Rebeca Phillips | |
Y rhai eraill a oedd yn bresennol
Others in Attendance
| Alyson Francis | Cyfarwyddwr Tai ac Adfywio, Llywodraeth Cymru |
| Director of Housing and Regeneration, Welsh Government | |
| Neil Hemington | Prif Gynllunydd, Llywodraeth Cymru |
| Chief Planner, Welsh Government | |
| Reg Kilpatrick | Cyfarwyddwr, Cyfarwyddiaeth Llywodraeth Leol a Chynllunio, Llywodraeth Cymru |
| Director, Local Government and Planning Directorate, Welsh Government | |
| Richard Baker | Dirprwy Gyfarwyddwr, Is-adran Lle, Llywodraeth Cymru |
| Deputy Director, Place Division, Welsh Government | |
| Sian Gwenllian | Gweinidog Cabinet dros Lywodraeth Leol, Tai a Chynllunio |
| Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning | |
| Stuart Fitzgerald | Dirprwy Gyfarwyddwr, Mwy o Gartrefi, Llywodraeth Cymru |
| Deputy Director, More Homes, Welsh Government | |
| Tracey Breheny | Cyfarwyddwr, Cyfarwyddiaeth Llywodraeth Leol a Chynllunio, Llywodraeth Cymru |
| Director, Local Government and Planning Directorate, Welsh Government |
Swyddogion y Senedd a oedd yn bresennol
Senedd Officials in Attendance
| Catherine Hunt | Clerc |
| Clerk | |
| Jennie Bibbings | Ymchwilydd |
| Researcher | |
| Osian Bowyer | Ymchwilydd |
| Researcher | |
| Yusra Chaudhary | Dirprwy Glerc |
| Deputy Clerk |
Cynnwys
Contents
Cofnodir y trafodion yn yr iaith y llefarwyd hwy ynddi yn y pwyllgor. Yn ogystal, cynhwysir trawsgrifiad o’r cyfieithu ar y pryd. Mae hon yn fersiwn ddrafft o’r cofnod.
The proceedings are reported in the language in which they were spoken in the committee. In addition, a transcription of the simultaneous interpretation is included. This is a draft version of the record.
Cyfarfu’r pwyllgor yn y Senedd a thrwy gynhadledd fideo.
Dechreuodd y cyfarfod am 09:45.
The committee met in the Senedd and by video-conference.
The meeting began at 09:45.
Good morning, all. I'd like to welcome Members and the public to the meeting of the Local Government, Housing and Planning Committee. The public items of the meeting are being broadcast live on Senedd.tv and the Record of Proceedings will be published. We have received apologies this morning from Francesca O'Brien MS and also Anthony Slaughter MS. The meeting is bilingual. Simultaneous interpretation from Welsh to English is available. Are there any declarations of interest from anyone? None. Marvellous.
The purpose of the item in the first part of today's meeting is to hold a scrutiny session with the Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning as part of our follow-up inquiry into empty properties. Welcome, Cabinet Minister. Just for the record, would you like to introduce your team?
Diolch yn fawr iawn. Fe wnaf i gychwyn efo Richard. Richard, cei di gyflwyno dy hun.
Thank you very much. I'll start with Richard. Richard, you can introduce yourself.
Bore da. Good morning. Richard Baker, deputy director of the place division. In the context of this session, I have responsibility for town-centre regeneration.
Good morning, all. Bore da. I'm Stuart Fitzgerald. I'm the deputy director for the more homes division, so I oversee a number of schemes delivering more homes.
Thank you very much. Without further ado, I will invite Members to question the witnesses. So, who have we got? On the Welsh Government's strategic approach, Marc.
Cwestiwn syml i gychwyn. Mae yna lot o sôn wedi bod am yr angen am gynllun cenedlaethol i sortio hyn allan. Mae wedi bod yn broblem ers yn rhy hir. A fydd yna gynllun cenedlaethol?
A simple question to start with. There is great mention made about the need for a national scheme or plan to sort this out. It's been a problem for far too long. Will there be a national plan or scheme?
Diolch am y cwestiwn a diolch am y cyfle i ddod gerbron y pwyllgor y bore yma. Dwi yma i gael fy nghraffu, wrth gwrs, ond dwi'n gobeithio hefyd ein bod ni'n gallu rhannu rhywfaint o'r un weledigaeth a bod rhai o'r argymhellion fydd y pwyllgor yma'n eu gwneud yn helpu fy ngwaith i symud yr agenda penodol am eiddo gwag ymlaen. Felly, diolch i chi am wneud yr ymchwiliad yma. Mae o'n ymchwiliad pwysig ac rwy'n edrych ymlaen i weld ffrwyth y gwaith.
Rydych chi'n holi am strategaeth neu gynllun. Mi ydyn ni'n gweithio ar strategaeth gyffredinol ar dai ac eiddo. O dan hwnna, mi fydd yna lot o ffrydiau gwaith, ac un ohonyn nhw yn amlwg fydd tai gwag. Bydd yna faterion yn cwmpasu cyflenwad tai cymdeithasol a digartrefedd, a bydd yna faterion eraill, wrth gwrs, yn gorwedd o fewn y strategaeth yna. Ond mi fydd yna le i eiddo gwag a thaclo'r problemau sydd yn codi efo hynny.
Y syniad ydy nad ydyn ni'n cychwyn o nunlle, wrth gwrs; mae'r gwaith yn digwydd. Ond mae eisiau ffocws clir yn y strategaeth tai cyffredinol—ffocws hollol glir—a dwi'n meddwl mai dyna ydy'r gwahaniaeth, efallai: bydd y strategaeth yma'n dangos y gwahaniaeth o ran bod gennym ni ffocws clir ar gynyddu y stoc o dai cyhoeddus yng Nghymru fel y prif ffordd o daclo'r argyfwng tai. Felly, mae eisiau dod â'r cwbl at ei gilydd, ond, o dan hynny, fel dwi'n dweud, mi fydd eiddo gwag yn cael lle hefyd.
Thank you for the question and thank you for the opportunity to come before the committee this morning. I'm here to be scrutinised, of course, but I also hope we will be able to share something of the same vision and that some of the recommendations that this committee will make will assist my work in moving this specific agenda about empty homes and vacant properties forward. Therefore, I'd like to thank you for undertaking this inquiry, which is very important. I do look forward to seeing the fruits of your work.
You asked about a strategy or a plan. We are working on a general strategy on housing and property. Beneath that, there will be many work streams, and one of them, obviously, will be empty homes. There will be areas that are encompassing social housing supply, homelessness and other issues, of course, which will lie within that strategy. There will be room for empty properties and tackling the problems arising from those.
The idea is that we're not starting from nowhere, of course; the work is happening. But we need a clear focus in the general housing strategy—a very clear focus—and I think that that may be the difference, perhaps: that this strategy will show a difference in that we have a clear focus on increasing the stock of public housing in Wales and that that will be our main way of tackling the housing crisis. Therefore, we need to bring everything together, but, beneath that, as I say, vacant property will have its place.
Diolch. Gaf i ofyn cwestiwn pellach? Rydych chi wedi cyfeirio at y nod o gyrraedd 20,000 o dai cymdeithasol ychwanegol. Faint ydych chi'n rhagweld o'r rheini fydd yn eiddo gwag yn cael eu troi yn eiddo cymdeithasol?
Thank you. May I ask a further question? You have referred to that objective of reaching 20,000 additional social homes. How many of those do you foresee will be empty properties turned into social homes?
Mae hwnna'n gwestiwn hynod o bwysig. Fedraf i ddim rhoi ffigwr o ganrannau i chi ar hyn o bryd, ond yn sicr dwi eisiau gweld mwy o eiddo gwag yn cyfrannu tuag at y ffigwr 20,000 o dai cymdeithasol. Mae yna lot o heriau efo'r maes, fel rydych chi'n gwybod, ond mae yna gyfle gwirioneddol hefyd. Os gallwn ni wneud pethau ychydig bach yn wahanol, efallai, bydd mwy o gyfle i ddod ag eiddo gwag i mewn i'r 20,000, i'r targed yna. Mae'r targed yn cynnwys cartrefi yn y maes gofal hefyd. Ond mae'r targed yn hollol glir. Rydyn ni eisiau gweld tai cyhoeddus sydd yn aros yn dai cyhoeddus ar gyfer y dyfodol, fel rhan o'r targed 20,000 yna. Dwi ddim yn gwybod a ydy Stuart eisiau dod i mewn yn fwy ar yr ochr tai gwag a faint o ganran rydyn ni'n gobeithio symud tuag ato fo o ran hynny.
That's an extremely important question. I can't give you a figure in terms of percentages at present, but certainly I wish to see more vacant properties contributing towards that figure of 20,000 social homes. There are many challenges involved, as you will know, but there is a real opportunity as well. If we can do things slightly differently, perhaps, there will be a greater opportunity to bring empty properties into that target of 20,000. That target includes homes in the area of care as well. But the target is entirely clear. We want to see public homes that stay as public homes for the future, as part of the 20,000 target. I don't know if Stuart wants to come in and say more on the empty properties side of things and the percentage we hope to move towards there.
So, definitely, a percentage is difficult, as you mentioned, but the TACP capital programme has been quite successful in bringing existing dwellings back into use. So, we're doing more through that and as much as we can through that. That's a registered social landlord route to do that. But as you'll see in the evidence paper, we're looking at how we might be able to enable smaller small and medium-sized enterprises to develop properties—empty properties, derelict properties—and bring those back into use into the social sector, alongside the schemes we have to bring them back into the market sector as well. So, we do hope to increase that percentage, and I do see this avenue being able to add more to the 20,000 target than we once had.
Gwnawn ni ddod ymlaen, dwi'n siwr, at y TACP, sydd yn gronfa eithaf newydd, sydd yn galluogi landlordiaid i fod tipyn bach yn fwy hyblyg ac yn eu galluogi nhw, felly, i fynd ar ôl y sector tai gwag yn fwy. Efallai ddown ni nôl at hynny.
I'm sure that we will come on to the TACP, which is quite a new fund, which enables landlords to be a little more flexible and also enables them, therefore, to go after the empty homes sector a little more. Perhaps we'll return to that.
What's the jargon? TACP is trans—
Transitional accommodation capital programme.
Transitional accommodation capital—i helpu efo'r sefyllfa o ran digartrefedd, er mwyn cael cyfalaf ar gyfer rhan o'r sector, sydd yn bwysig iawn cyn adeiladu yr ochr tai cymdeithasol parhaol, mewn ffordd.
Transitional accommodation capital—to help with the homelessness situation, in order to get capital for part of the sector, which is very important before building on the social housing side that will be permanent, in a way.
Can I give just one example of the cross-cutting nature and how we contribute to the empty properties? Obviously, a town-centre taskforce is being convened. One of the areas is looking at empty properties, but also linking that to increased living in town centres. So, we'll be pulling those strands together over the various thematic workshops and also we'll be producing various recommendations in the spring around that. So, this area will be captured in terms of empty properties and then also contributing to obviously mixed tenure in town centres, but obviously there'll be an affordable social housing provision included within that as well.
Thank you. Rebeca.
Diolch yn fawr am ymuno â ni, Weinidog. Yn ystod ein hymchwiliad, roedd nifer o'r rhanddeiliaid yn dweud bod y safon ansawdd tai Cymru presennol, y WHQS, yn rhwystr i brynu mwy o eiddo gwag ar gyfer tai cymdeithasol. Mae adolygiad yn cymryd lle ar hyn o bryd. Oes amserlen gyda chi ar gyfer bennu'r adolygiad hwnnw, plis?
Thank you very much for joining us, Minister. During our inquiry, a number of stakeholders said that the current Welsh housing quality standard, the WHQS, was a barrier for purchasing additional empty properties to turn into social homes. A review is currently under way. Do you have a timetable for completing that review?
Diolch am sôn am hyn. Mae'r adolygiad wedi cychwyn o safon ansawdd tai Cymru ar gyfer cartrefi cymdeithasol, i wneud yn siŵr ei fod o'n dal yn addas i ddiben. Mae'r adolygiad yn edrych ar yr hyn sydd yn bwysig i denantiaid, ond hefyd, yn amlwg, mae'n rhaid inni gadw at lefel o safon i gyd-fynd efo blaenoriaethau ehangach y Llywodraeth o ran datgarboneiddio ac yn y blaen.
Mae'r gwaith yn symud ymlaen yn sydyn. Mae'r landlordiaid cymdeithasol yn rhan o hwnna. Maen nhw wedi bod yn galw am edrych ar y safon benodol yma. Mae'r gymdeithas tenantiaid hefyd yn cyfrannu at y gwaith ac wedi bod yn galw am rywbeth tebyg. Ac fel roeddem ni'n sôn am y rhaglen gyfalaf llety trosiannol, y TACP, mae yna ddull o fewn hwnna sydd yn sôn am safon ofynnol i ddarparu llety yn gyflym, ac mae hyn yn caniatáu gwyro yn y gronfa yna, yn y rhaglen yna, oddi wrth safon ansawdd tai Cymru i ddiwallu anghenion brys. Felly, mae yna rywfaint o sgôp i wneud hynny o fewn y rhaglen benodol yna. Beth dwi'n ei wneud rŵan ydy edrych yn fwy eang ar y safon ansawdd i weld a fedrwn ni wneud rhywbeth i gyflymu'r broses heb gyfaddawdu ar yr ochr effeithlonrwydd ynni.
Thank you for raising this. The review has begun of the WHQS for social housing, in order to ensure that it's still fit for purpose. The review is looking at what is important to tenants, but also, obviously, we need to retain a level of standard so that we can maintain the Government's wider ambitions when it comes to decarbonisation and so on.
The work is progressing quickly. The social landlords are a part of that, and they have been calling for us to look at this specific standard. The tenants association is also contributing to the work and has been calling for something similar. And as we were saying about the TACP, there is an approach within that that talks about a required standard to provide accommodation quickly, and this enables a slight diversion in that fund or programme away from the WHQS to meet urgent needs. So, there is some scope for us to do that within that specific programme. What I am currently doing is looking more broadly at the WHQS to see if there's anything we can do to accelerate the process without compromising on the energy efficiency side.
Diolch.
Thank you.
Thank you. Funding—Mike.
The first question on funding: the empty homes grant is due to end in March 2027. Will you continue it?
Mae'r Llywodraeth yma wedi etifeddu nifer o raglenni, nifer o grantiau, nifer o gronfeydd sydd wedi cael eu datblygu dros y blynyddoedd, ac mi fyddwch chi'n disgwyl i fi fod yn edrych ar y rhain yn fanwl i weld a ydyn nhw'n dal yn gweithio i'r pwynt rydyn ni i gyd eisiau eu gweld nhw yn gweithio. Felly, rydyn ni yn edrych ar y gronfa benodol yma i wneud yn siŵr ei bod hi yn cyrraedd y diben, ac mi fyddwn ni yn sicr yn croesawu eich ymchwiliad chi i gyfrannu tuag at hwn o ran y grant penodol yma.
Mae yna rywfaint o newid wedi digwydd yn ddiweddar, onid oes, o ran cyfraniad yr awdurdodau lleol—bydd Stuart yn sôn yn fwy am hyn, dwi'n meddwl. Mae cyfraniad awdurdodau lleol wedi cael ei dynnu allan ohono fo rŵan. Felly, fe gawn ni weld sut mae hwnna yn gweithio—ydy hwnna'n helpu i gael mwy o bobl i ddefnyddio'r gronfa benodol yma?
This Government has inherited a number of programmes, a number of grants, a number of funds that have been developed over the years, and you would expect me to be looking at all of these in detail to see whether they are still working in the way that we would all want to see. So, we are looking at that specific fund to ensure that it does meet the need, and we will certainly welcome your inquiry in contributing towards that work in terms of that specific grant.
There has been some change recently, hasn't there, in terms of the contribution of local authorities—Stuart will mention more on that as well. The contribution of local authorities has been withdrawn from it now. So, we will see how that works—is that helping to get more people to use this specific grant fund?
Stuart, do you want to talk about what we've done recently?
Yes. The evaluation report, which I think was in the evidence paper, has been really helpful and suggested a number of areas that we can look at around the level of grant, the processes, the way it's run, all those kinds of things that we are looking at and we'll be advising the Minister on. The 10 per cent contribution has helped, so now we've got all local authorities signed up to the grant. This is the first year where we've had all local authorities, so we're looking forward to seeing the impact of all of that, but it's really positive. I look forward to giving advice to the Minister on how that scheme might be refined and move forward on what the options are.
Ac un opsiwn dŷn ni'n edrych arno fo ydy beth oeddet ti'n sôn amdano ar y dechrau ynglŷn â Banc Datblygu Cymru yn edrych ar botensial y cynllun i dargedu busnesau bach, busnesau adeiladu bach, i roi cyllid iddyn nhw brynu ac adnewyddu cartrefi gwag er mwyn dod â nhw nôl i ddefnydd ac yn y pen draw i ddod â nhw nôl fel tai cymdeithasol, tai cyhoeddus. Felly, mae hwnna'n rhywbeth newydd o ran defnydd o'r grant penodol yma. Mae swyddogion yn gweithio hefo'r banc datblygu i weld beth fedrwn ni ei wneud o ran hynny.
And one option that we are looking at is what you mentioned there at the beginning about the Development Bank for Wales looking at the potential of the scheme to target small businesses, small construction firms, to provide funding for them to buy and to revamp empty properties to bring them back into use and ultimately bringing them back as social homes, public homes. So, that's a new thing in terms of the use of that specific grant. Officials are working with the development bank to see what we can do in that regard.
I was disappointed with that answer, because you've had six months to look at it and it's a scheme that has worked reasonably well. I'm going to ask you about another scheme that has worked exceptionally well, and that's the Leasing Scheme Wales, which is supported by the private sector, which has allowed houses to become available for social rent—those that are owned by private landlords. Will you be continuing that?
Ar hyn o bryd, mae yna benderfyniad yn cael ei wneud i beidio â pharhau efo'r cynllun, cynllun pum mlynedd gafodd ei sefydlu o dan y Llywodraeth flaenorol. Syniad hwnna oedd gweithio hefo landlordiaid yn y sector breifat i helpu i fynd i'r afael â phwysau tai. Mae o wedi chwarae rhan bwysig yn y pum mlynedd yma i ddod ag eiddo gwag yn ôl i ddefnydd, ac mae o wedi dod â rhai gwersi a materion pwysig i'n sylw ni.
Dwi'n dal i adolygu'r dystiolaeth, ond does yna ddim arian yn debygol o fod yng nghyllideb y flwyddyn nesaf. Yn anffodus, mae hwn yn un o'r cynlluniau yna sydd yn cael eu heffeithio gan y sefyllfa ariannol, gan yr hinsawdd ariannol. Fel y gallwch chi ddychmygu, mae yna bwysau aruthrol ar y gyllideb yng Nghymru, a blwyddyn nesaf does yna ddim arian yn y gyllideb, ond doedd yna ddim bwriad bod yna arian yn y gyllideb, oherwydd cynllun pum mlynedd oedd o i fod. Ac yn ystod y pum mlynedd yna, wrth gwrs, mae yna gartrefi wedi cael eu datblygu o dan y cynllun yma.
Mae gan awdurdodau lleol hawl i estyn y les presennol ar ôl y pum mlynedd; dydy o ddim yn golygu bod y cartrefi yma rŵan yn diflannu. Mae o'n golygu bod hawl gan awdurdodau lleol i wneud y mwyaf o'r buddsoddiad sydd wedi digwydd ar y cynllun yma. Dŷn ni'n awyddus i fod yn rhoi ffocws hollol, hollol glir ar ddatblygu y cyflenwad o dai cyhoeddus sydd yn mynd i fod yn dai cyhoeddus ar gyfer cenedlaethau'r dyfodol. Dydy'r cynllun yma ddim cweit yn gwneud hynny. Mae o'n ateb dros dro i sefyllfa, a lle mae adnoddau'n brin, mae'n rhaid inni benderfynu lle dŷn ni'n rhoi ein ffocws, ac mae ffocws y Llywodraeth yma ar ddatblygu'r cyflenwad tai cymdeithasol.
At present, a decision is being made not to continue with that scheme, a five-year scheme that was established under the previous Government. The idea behind that was to work with landlords in the private sector to help to tackle the pressures around housing. It has played an important part in those five years to bring empty properties back into use, and it has brought some important issues and lessons to our attention.
I'm still reviewing the evidence, but there is no funding likely to be in next year's budget. Unfortunately, this is one of those schemes that are being affected by the financial situation, the financial climate. As you can imagine, there is huge pressure on the budget in Wales, and next year, there will be no funding in the budget, but there was no intention that there would be funding in the budget, because this was a five-year scheme—that's what it was meant to be. And during those five years, of course, homes have been developed under that scheme.
Local authorities have the right to extend the current lease after those five years; it doesn't mean that these homes will disappear. It means that local authorities have the right to make the most of the investment that has taken place under this scheme. We are eager to give an entirely clear focus on developing the supply of public housing that will be public housing for future generations. This scheme does not quite do that. It's a temporary solution in response to a particular situation, and where resources are scarce, we have to decide where we're going to place our focus, and this Government's focus is on developing social housing supply.
Thank you. Any other questions on funding? David, or Peter.
Minister, we just wondered if you think it's justifiable that some local authorities are charging that empty homes premium but not funding empty homes officers to support that purpose, really. And I just wondered if you were thinking of introducing a statutory duty on local authorities to take action on empty homes, and if you might consider ring-fencing empty home premiums to housing. So, there are three questions in one there.
Diolch yn fawr iawn. Dwi'n falch iawn o weld cynghorau ar draws Cymru yn defnyddio'r hawl yma i glustnodi premiymau ar gyfer cartrefi gwag ac ar gyfer ail gartrefi hefyd. Mae o'n ffordd arbenigol, dwi'n credu, o'n helpu ni gyda dod â mwy o'r stoc tai yn ôl i fod yn weithredol, i fod yn dai ar gyfer pobl yn y cymunedau.
Felly, dyna pam gafodd y premiymau yma eu cyflwyno. Roeddwn i'n falch o fod yn rhan o'r broses o gyflwyno'r rhain yn ystod y Senedd ddiwethaf. Mae Cyngor Sir Penfro wedi gofyn i Lywodraeth Cymru am gyfarwyddyd ynglŷn â defnyddio premiwm y dreth gyngor, tai gwag ac ail gartrefi, ar gyfer eu cyfrif refeniw tai er mwyn darparu tai cymdeithasol a fforddiadwy, a dwi'n meddwl bod hwnna yn syniad i ni fel Llywodraeth gefnogi hynny. Ond fel rydych chi'n gwybod, mater i awdurdodau lleol ydy eu strategaethau tai gwag penodol nhw, a dŷn ni yn hapus iawn i gefnogi datblygu strategaethau, a byddwn ni ddim eisiau bod yn gosod amodau clir—mae hi i fyny i awdurdodau lleol. Mi fyddwch chi'n gwerthfawrogi hynny, yr elfen yna o alluogi cymunedau a chynghorau i ddilyn eu trywydd eu hunain.
Ond y neges gen i ydy y byddwn ni yn cefnogi'r math yna o symudiad, ac yn sicr yn cefnogi bod yna swyddogion cartrefi gwag mewn awdurdodau lleol. Ac mae o i fyny iddyn nhw sut maen nhw'n gwario'u harian, onid ydy?
Thank you very much. I'm very pleased to see councils across Wales using this right to ring-fence premiums for empty homes and for second homes as well. It's a very good way, I believe, of helping us with bringing more of the housing stock back into active use as homes for the people in these communities.
So, that's why these premiums were introduced. I was pleased to be part of the process of introducing these during the previous Senedd. Pembrokeshire County Council has asked the Welsh Government for direction with regard to the use of the council tax premium, the empty homes premium and second home premium, for their housing revenue account to provide additional affordable housing and social housing, and I think that's an idea that should be supported by us as a Government. But as you know, it's a matter for individual local authorities to decide on their empty homes strategies, and we are very content to support the development of those strategies, and we wouldn't want to be setting out clear conditions—it's up to local authorities. You will appreciate that yourself, that element of enabling communities and councils to pursue their own paths.
But the message from me is that we would support that kind of movement, and certainly we would support the idea of there being empty homes officers in place in local authorities. And it's up to them how they spend their money, isn't it?
Okay, thank you.
Thank you, Peter. Local authority resource—David, you've got a question.
Yes. Minister, do you feel that best practice is being shared amongst local authorities?
Mae hwnna yn gwestiwn da iawn, achos dwi'n credu bod yna enghreifftiau da iawn o arfer da ar draws Cymru, lle dŷn ni yn gweld cynnydd o ran dod â chartrefi gwag yn ôl i ddefnydd. Dydy o ddim yn gyson, rydych chi'n gywir. Ond fel roeddwn i'n dweud, mae'r strategaethau yna yn cael eu llunio ar lefel leol, onid ydyn? Mi fedrwn ni roi arweiniad, wrth gwrs. Ac yn ein strategaeth newydd ni ar dai ac adfywio, yr un cyffredinol, mi fyddwn i'n licio rhoi mwy o bwyslais ar yr agwedd yma o'r gwaith. Ond mae hi'n bwysig rhannu'r arferion da a'r arbenigedd yna sydd ar gael ymhlith awdurdodau lleol, ac efallai nad ydyn ni'n gwneud digon o hynny.
That's a very good question, because I believe that there are very good examples of good practice throughout Wales, where we do see progress in bringing empty homes back into use. It isn't consistent, you're right. But as I said, those strategies are designed at a local level, aren't they? We can offer guidance, of course. And in our new strategy on housing and regeneration, in general, I'd like to put greater emphasis on this aspect of the work. But it's important to share good practice and the expertise available among local authorities, and perhaps we don't do enough of that.
Thank you. Legislation, Elyn.
Diolch, Gadeirydd, a diolch, Weinidog. Dwi eisiau troi at y mater o eiddo gwag hirdymor. Fe glywsom ni dystiolaeth gan gynrychiolwyr o awdurdodau lleol am achos lle defnyddiwyd gorchymyn prynu gorfodol ym Mhen-y-bont ar Ogwr, ond wrth glywed tystiolaeth gan awdurdodau eraill, fe ges i'r argraff bod rhai ohonyn nhw'n petruso cyn defnyddio'r pwerau hyn, yn rhannol oherwydd diffyg capasiti ac arbenigedd cyfreithiol. Beth wnewch chi o hyn, yn gyntaf? Ac yn ail, a oes cyfle i awdurdodau lleol rannu adnoddau ac arbenigedd cyfreithiol er mwyn eu galluogi nhw i ddefnyddio gorchmynion prynu gorfodol yn fwy effeithiol?
Thank you, Chair, and thank you, Minister. I want to turn to the topic of long-term empty properties. We heard evidence from representatives of local authorities about the use of a compulsory purchase order in Bridgend, but on hearing evidence from other authorities, I got the impression that some of them are hesitant to use these powers, partly because of a lack of capacity and a lack of legal expertise. Firstly, what will you do to address this? And secondly, is there an opportunity for local authorities to share resources and legal expertise to enable the more effective use of compulsory purchase orders?
Ie, diolch yn fawr. Mae'r gorchmynion prynu gorfodol yma yn broses gymhleth, yn ôl yr hyn dwi'n deall—hynod o gymhleth ac astrus ac yn gofyn am dipyn o arbenigedd cyn bod cyngor yn mentro mewn i'r maes yna. Ond mae o'n un o'r ystod o bwerau sydd ar gael i awdurdodau lleol ac mae o ar gael os ydyn nhw'n teimlo ei fod o'n briodol i'w ddefnyddio fo. Ac mae o'n gallu chwarae rôl bwysig lle dydy trafod a chefnogi ddim wedi llwyddo i berswadio perchnogion i ganiatáu i'w heiddo nhw ddechrau cael eu hailddefnyddio.
Felly, rydyn ni wedi bod yn cefnogi awdurdodau lleol sydd eisiau cymryd y math yma o gamau ac mae yna gronfa orfodi ym maes eiddo gwag ar gael. Mae yna gefnogaeth ariannol ar gael drwy'r gronfa yna. A hefyd, mi wnaeth y Llywodraeth flaenorol ddatblygu llawlyfr ar eiddo gwag a dwi'n meddwl bod hwnna—. Yn sicr, mae'r weinyddiaeth flaenorol i'w chymeradwyo am ddod â chanllawiau ymarferol ymlaen yn y llawlyfr eiddo gwag. Efallai fyddwn ni am gadw hwnna dan adolygiad parhaus. Ond y cymhlethdod yma ydy lot o'r broblem, ac o ran cael rhyw fath o bŵl canolog o arbenigedd i helpu hynny, dwi'n meddwl buasai hynna'n ein symud ni yn y cyfeiriad cywir, ac mi allai Unnos fod yn rhan o hynny.
Rŵan, byddwch chi'n gwybod bod gen i weledigaeth ynglŷn â chynyddu’r cyflenwad o dai cymdeithasol, ac er mwyn i mi gael y ffocws hollol glir yna, mi ydyn ni angen corff hyd braich o Lywodraeth i yrru'r agenda yna ymlaen. A dweud y gwir, mae'r pwyllgor yma yn y Senedd flaenorol wedi cefnogi'r syniad yna ac mae Unnos yn rhan o raglen Llywodraeth Cymru rŵan. Un o'r pwerau, neu un o'r meini prawf, neu un o'r pethau y gall Unnos ei wneud, ydy creu cronfa o arbenigedd cenedlaethol fyddai wedyn yn helpu awdurdodau lleol ac yn y blaen i ddefnyddio'r pwerau sydd yna'n barod mewn ffordd fwy priodol. Dwi ddim yn gwybod—Richard sydd yn arwain ar y cynllun rhaglen Unnos—os ydy o eisiau sôn tipyn bach am hynna.
Yes, thank you very much. These compulsory purchase orders are a complex process, as I understand it—extremely difficult and intricate, requiring quite a lot of expertise before a council ventures into that space. But it is one of a range of powers available to local authorities, and it is available if they feel that it's appropriate to use it. And it can play an important role where discussions and support have not managed to persuade owners to allow their properties to be brought back into use.
So, we have been supporting local authorities who want to take these kinds of steps and there is an enforcement fund available in the area of empty properties. There is financial support available via that fund. And also, the previous Government developed a handbook on empty properties and I believe that—. Certainly, the previous administration should be praised for bringing practical guidance forward in that empty properties handbook. We may want to keep that under continuous review. But it's the complexity here that is a large part of the problem, and in terms of having some sort of centralised pool of expertise to assist with that, I think that that would take us in the right direction, and Unnos could be a part of that.
Now, you will know that I have a vision about increasing the social housing supply, and for me to have that entirely clear focus, we need a body that's at arm's length from Government that can drive that agenda forward. Indeed, this committee in the previous Senedd supported that idea and Unnos is a part of the Welsh Government's programme now. And one of the powers, or measures, or one of the things that Unnos could do would be to create a pool of national expertise that would then assist local authorities and so on to use the powers that are already available in a more appropriate manner. I don't know if Richard, who is leading on the Unnos programme, wants to talk a little more about that.
Yes, thank you, Minister. When I started my professional career, CPOs, you were doing them every week, and there was expertise there across the piece. CPOs have dwindled in their use; the expertise has gone, basically. They've left the profession, retired, whatever, and it hasn't been a core part of people coming in. So, that's the reality. So, we do need to make better use, then, of the expertise that's available, and if you can get better value out of that—. So, I think having it in a central resource that can support nationally is definitely a way forward, I think, and we can also bring other people through into the profession, then, to support that. So, it's definitely the way forward.
I think you mentioned compulsory sales orders. I think that the Scottish consultation has understood that that's not easy, because it goes back to the same point that you're still relying on local authorities and their having the ability and the capacity to drive that forward. And there have been particular things around interfering in individual owners' property rights, et cetera. So, it's quite complex.
But there is work going on to try and streamline and simplify the CPO process. There is a Law Commission report, a Law Commission of England and Wales report, due to be published in early 2027, which will bring out some recommendations on how to simplify the CPO process. For me, personally, a CPO process linked to one house is a bit of a hammer to crack a nut, to be honest with you. I think we need to look at other ways, one, to identify who the owners are. That's the key piece of work, I think. In terms of empty homes and such, the big problem a lot of the time is that you don't know who the owner is due to history and going through probate. I think if we're able to do something around that, identifying the owners and then to engage with the owners, we'll make some progress.
You will always have to have CPOs, particularly in terms of strategic developments and commercial, and we are supporting local authorities on CPOs and trying to drive forward on the strategic perspective. For local authorities, it's a difficult ask when you're just looking at it for an individual property, and the costs and the resources you need to commit to that piece of work. I do think pooling the resource is the way forward.
A gallwn ni wneud hwnna cyn sefydlu Unnos, wrth gwrs.
And we can do that before establishing Unnos, of course.
Ie, wrth gwrs. Roeddwn i'n mynd i ofyn, yn atodol i'r pwynt y gwnaethoch chi fanna, roedd rhai pobl o'r awdurdodau lleol wedi dweud eu bod nhw wedi bod yn defnyddio genealogists. Ydych chi'n rhagweld y bydd hynny'n rhan o'r dyfodol ynglŷn â thrio ffeindio mas pwy yw perchnogion y tai gwag yma?
Yes, of course. I was going to ask, as a supplementary to that point that you made there, some people from the local authorities said that they have been using genealogists. Do you see that being a part of the future in terms of finding who the owners of these empty properties are?
Yes, and we have discussed that with them before. It's a case of trying to identify—. Again, I don't think every local authority needs to. I think that, if we can possibly work regionally, or whatever, with local authorities working together, and obviously engaging with us in terms of how we can engage those specialist services to get into the heir hunters, or whatever, that sphere, to identify the ownership.
Thank you. David, do you have a question?
No, no.
No. Okay. Rebeca, on data.
Diolch, Gadeirydd. Codwyd y broblem o ansawdd data yn ystod ein hymchwiliad. Oes gan y Llywodraeth unrhyw gynlluniau ynglŷn â'r bwriad i wella'r data ar dai gwag?
Thank you, Chair. The problem of the quality of data was raised during our inquiry. Does the Government have any plans around the intention to improve the data on empty homes?
Dwi'n gweld bod hwn yn broblem ac yn her. Dwi wedi gofyn i swyddogion ystyried beth fedrwn ni ei wneud, a dwi wedi gofyn iddyn nhw drafod efo Data Cymru, sydd bellach yn rhan o Gymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru, i wella'r ffordd y mae data yn cael ei gasglu ar eiddo preswyl gwag yn y lle cyntaf. Mae'n bwysig, onid ydy, i beidio â dibynnu ar y rhestr prisio treth cyngor yn unig a hefyd bod yna ddiffiniad cyson o 'eiddo preswyl gwag'. Beth yn union ydy'r diffiniad yna? Efallai ein bod ni'n meddwl ei fod o'n hawdd, ond mae'n siŵr, unwaith rydych chi'n dechrau meddwl am y peth, mae o'n codi bob math o ryw ystyriaethau. Ond, yn sicr, rydyn ni eisiau data gwell, ac mi fuasai hynny'n helpu'r gwaith o gysoni ac ad-drefnu cynlluniau hefyd. Ac efallai fod eisiau hefyd edrych ar sut i fesur llwyddiant yr ymdrechion i ailddefnyddio eiddo. Un peth ydy adnabod yr eiddo gwag, ydyn ni hefyd angen data i ddangos pa lwyddiant sydd wedi bod efo'r cynlluniau presennol i ailddefnyddio eiddo, ac yn fy achos i yn benodol, fel eiddo cyhoeddus? Dwi'n meddwl efallai fod angen inni wneud y ddau beth a chael y wybodaeth benodol yna. Dwi'n gwybod bod eisiau bod yn sensitif efo rhannu rhai mathau penodol o ddata, ond dwi'n gobeithio y daw'r gwaith yma efo Data Cymru rŵan ag opsiynau penodol ymlaen i ni.
I see that this is a problem and a challenge. I've asked officials to consider what we can do, and I've also asked them to discuss with Data Cymru, which is now part of the Welsh Local Government Association, to improve the way that data is gathered on empty residential properties in the first instance. It is important, isn't it, not to depend fully on the council tax valuation list and that there is a consistent definition of 'empty residential property'. What exactly is that definition? Perhaps we think that it's easy, but I'm sure that when you start thinking about it in detail, it raises all kinds of considerations. But, certainly, we do want better data, and that would help the work of providing consistency and reorganising plans too. And perhaps we need to look at how to measure the success of efforts to reuse properties. It's one thing to identify the empty property, do we also need data to show what success there has been with the current schemes to reuse properties, and in my case specifically, as public property? I think that perhaps we need to do both of those things and to get that specific information. I know that we need to be sensitive with sharing some specific kinds of data, but I hope that this work with Data Cymru will bear fruit and will bring forward specific options for us.
Diolch.
Thank you.
Thank you. Okay?
Fine, yes.
Cwestiwn am dai cymunedol sydd gen i. Pa rôl ydych chi'n rhagweld sydd yna i fentrau tai cymunedol a mentrau cydweithredol i ddatblygu tai gwag a dod â nhw nôl i ddefnydd?
I have a question about social housing. What role do you anticipate there being for social housing initiatives and co-operative initiatives to develop empty properties to bring them back into use?
Mae tai dan arweiniad y gymuned—. Dyna ydy'r term rydyn ni'n ei ddefnyddio rŵan, mewn ffordd, community-led housing. Mae hwnna i mi yn flaenoriaeth, ac yn y strategaeth newydd gyffredinol, fe welwch chi fod pwyslais ar gefnogi cymunedau i berchnogi tai yn eu cymunedau nhw yn rhywbeth pwysig, ac yn enwedig mewn cymunedau gwledig, a chymunedau lle mae'r iaith Gymraeg dan fygythiad yn yr ardaloedd gwledig. Dwi'n meddwl bod tai dan arweiniad y gymuned yn ddatrysiad da iawn, yn galluogi cymunedau i greu dau, tri, pedwar eiddo—datblygiadau bach iawn sydd ddim efallai'n hyfyw i neb arall, ond bod y gymuned yn gallu canfod ffynonellau ariannol i'w galluogi nhw yn y lle cyntaf i wneud hynny, ac wedyn eu gosod nhw yn ôl eu rheolau eu hunain, ac mae yna rent yn dod trwyddo wedyn. Wedyn fedrwch chi fynd ymlaen a chanfod mwy. Dydy o ddim yn syniad newydd. Dwi'n cofio Cymdeithas Tai Gwynedd yn cael ei sefydlu pan oeddwn i yn y coleg. Mae hynna'n amser hir yn ôl, a dwi'n cofio prynu siâr amser hynny yng Nghymdeithas Tai Gwynedd. Ac maen nhw'n dal i fynd, ac maen nhw'n berchen ar dua 100 o dai yn nyffryn Nantlle erbyn hyn. Mae hynna wedi cynnwys adnabod eiddo gwag a dod â'r eiddo gwag yna yn ôl i ddefnydd. Felly, mae yna yn sicr le o fewn y thema tai dan arweiniad y gymuned iddyn nhw hefyd fod yn gwneud mwy o ran dod â tai yn ôl i ddefnydd.
Mi fydd y Bil hawl y gymuned i brynu—. Mae'r pwyslais yn hwnna ar asedau, nid tai o angenrheidrwydd, ond ar asedau cymunedol y byddai cymuned eisiau eu gweld yn dod yn ôl i ddefnydd y gymuned, ond gall hynna fod yn eiddo gwag hefyd. Gall fod yn dŷ tafarn gwag neu yn siop wag. Mi fyddaf i'n gwneud datganiad am y Bil newydd hawl y gymuned i brynu wythnos nesaf. Mi fyddai hynny'n cefnogi hynny o beth. Ac, wrth gwrs, mi all y gymuned, o berchnogi siop, fod yn penderfynu efallai, uwchben y siop, eu bod nhw'n rhentu'r eiddo yna i'r gymuned. Mae yna enghreifftiau da iawn o hynny'n digwydd yn nyffryn Ogwen, er enghraifft. Mae Partneriaeth Ogwen wedi llwyddo i wneud hynny. Dwi'n gobeithio bydd y Bil newydd yma yn galluogi llawer iawn mwy o gymunedau ac yn ymbweru cymunedau i wneud mwy o hyn, yn enwedig yn yr ardaloedd gwledig.
Community-led housing—. That's the term that we use now, in a way, community-led housing. That's a priority for me, and in the new general strategy, you will see that the emphasis on supporting communities to take ownership of homes in their communities is a very important element, particularly in rural communities, and communities where the Welsh language is under threat in those rural areas. I think that community-led housing is a very good solution in enabling communities to create two, three, four properties—very small-scale developments that might not be viable for anyone else, but the community can find sources of funding to enable them in the first instance to develop those, and then to let them according to their own rules, and then rent comes back in. And then you can go forth and find more. It's not a new idea. I remember Cymdeithas Tai Gwynedd, Gwynedd housing association, being established when I was at college. That was quite a long time ago, and I remember buying a share then in that housing association in Gwynedd. And they're still going, and they own around 100 homes in the Nantlle valley at the moment. That has included identifying empty properties and bringing those properties back into use. So, there is certainly a role within this theme of community-led housing for them, too, to be doing more in terms of bringing houses back into use.
The community right to buy Bill will—. There is an emphasis in that on assets, not necessarily homes or housing, but on community assets that a community perhaps would want to see being brought back into community use, but that could be empty property as well. It could be an empty pub or an empty shop. I will be making a statement on this new community right to buy Bill next week. That would support that kind of thing. And, of course, the community, in taking ownership of a shop, could decide that perhaps, above the shop, they wanted to rent out that property to a member of the community. There are very good examples of that happening in the Ogwen valley. Partneriaeth Ogwen has successfully done that. I very much hope that this new Bill will enable far more communities and empower communities to do more of this, particularly in those rural areas.
Gaf i jest ddod nôl ar hynny? Y broblem, wastad, efo mentrau cymunedol ydy cyfalaf, diffyg cyfalaf, achos mae'r rhain yn ardaloedd tlawd ar y cyfan, yn ardaloedd difreintiedig, heb gyfalaf; efo lot o gyfoeth o ran pobl ond nid cyfoeth o ran pres. Mae angen pres i brynu ac adnewyddu eiddo. Oes yna rywbeth—? Dwi ddim yn disgwyl cael preview exclusive yn y fan yma, ond buasai'n neis gwybod bod yna gyfalaf yn mynd i fod i helpu cymunedau, nid jest geiriau gwag.
If I may just come back on that, the problem, always, with community enterprises is capital, or lack of capital, because these are mainly poor areas, disadvantaged areas, without capital; they have a great deal of wealth when it comes to people but not in terms of money. You need money to buy and to renovate properties. Is there something—? I don't expect to get an exclusive preview here, but it would be good to know that there will be capital available to help communities to do this work, not just warm words.
Wel, fydd y Bil yma ddim—. Dydy o ddim yn debygol, beth bynnag, o fod yn sefydlu cronfa gyfalaf. Mae'r sefyllfa ariannol rydyn ni ynddi hi mor, mor heriol, fedrwn ni ddim ar hyn o bryd fynd lawr y trywydd yna, ond mi fyddwn ni efo uchelgais i weld cronfa o'r math yna yn datblygu. Ac yn sicr, mae grwpiau cymunedol yn gallu cael gafael ar arian gan y Loteri Genedlaethol. Er enghraifft, mae Ty'n Llan yn Llandwrog. Mae'r fenter yna, menter gymunedol i drawsnewid tafarn yn dafarn gymunedol, efo pres sylweddol gan y Loteri Genedlaethol, ond efo arweinwyr yn y gymuned yn gallu gwneud hynny. Beth dwi eisiau gweld ydy cymunedau sydd heb, efallai, yr arweinwyr yna'n cael eu cefnogi yn fwyfwy gan llywodraeth leol a ninnau i fod yn gallu cael yr arian ynghyd. Dwi ddim yn gwybod os ydy un ohonoch chi eisiau dod i mewn. Maen nhw'n ysu eisiau dod i mewn.
Well, this Bill won't—. It isn't likely to be establishing a capital fund. The financial situation that we face is so, so challenging that we can't currently go along that route, but we will have an ambition to see that kind of fund being developed. And certainly, community groups can access funding from the National Lottery. For example, there is Ty'n Llan in Llandwrog. That initiative, a community-led initiative to transform a pub into a community pub, has received significant funding from the National Lottery, but with community leaders being able to do that. What I want to see is communities that perhaps lack those leaders at present being supported increasingly by the local government and us to be able to gather the funds needed. I don't know whether officials want to come in. They're desperate to come in.
I completely agree. The consultation is not going to shy away from that issue. It isn't just about the Bill; it's about how do you implement the Bill, how do you support communities to take advantage of the Bill. We had a community assets piece of work published back at the end of the year, I think, by the previous Government. Again, it flagged that, yes, we need the legislation, but we also need, to support that, resource. As the Minister mentioned, communities, particularly those deprived communities, need the professional support to drive those forward, because those assets are probably more important in those communities than anywhere else, and they're the ones who lack the support and the wherewithal, possibly, to take that forward. So, clearly, there will be work done on that, and I'm sure it will come back in the consultation.
The one other thing I would flag on your original question around what we're doing is that placemaking plans are really important. Obviously, the Welsh Government has been funding placemaking plans for towns across Wales, engaging with communities. Again, that's about identifying those assets. It's an opportunity to identify those assets that are of particular community value and how they can then be taken forward and redeveloped in a sustainable way. I think what we want to ensure is that whatever we're doing is sustainable for the long term, supporting the communities.
For me, if I may, Cabinet Minister, it's quite important that our current grants and loan funding, our capital funds, don't preclude community groups from accessing them. For the social housing grant, for example, a community group can apply to that. So, looking at our strategy, making sure that we don't inadvertently preclude a community group from accessing a particular fund, is important. We'll have another look at that. I think you talked about making sure that the skills and the capacity around that community group are available and they're supported to discharge that funding, if you like, and capital in the right way. For example, on the social housing grant, there's a requirement for a community group to partner with RSLs, for example, to access that. So, there are those kinds of things in place just to make sure that those skills and the capacity is there. But rather than more funds, I think it's about making sure that our significant amount of funds and loans don't preclude community groups from applying and using them.
Ocê. Diolch.
Okay. Thank you.
Thank you. David, we'll take one last question, and then we'll move on to everybody's favourite, which is planning.
On development, is there any way that we're going to develop age-friendly, safer communities? Because back home in Merthyr, a lot of older people are saying that they don't see any age-friendly places being built that are safe for older people to live in a community together. They're put into flats that are used by all types of people and they find it very difficult. So, is the Government going to look at age-friendly developments?
O fewn ein strategaeth ni, mi fydd yna adran ynglŷn â'r union fater rydych chi'n ei godi, sef yr angen i adnabod grwpiau penodol o bobl a diwallu anghenion penodol. Mae yna gronfa housing with care; mae yna gronfa sydd yn golygu bod yna gefnogaeth ar gael yn y datblygiad. Ond mae'r ffordd mae cynghorau'n datblygu eu cynlluniau'n dibynnu ar eu hasesiadau tai lleol nhw—y local housing needs assessments. Yn hwnna, mae cyfle i gynghorau lleol adnabod y math o mix o gartrefi sydd yn mynd i fod eu hangen yn eu cymunedau nhw i'r dyfodol, ac mae'r math yna o beth yn dod allan yn glir fel galw ar gyfer datblygiadau ar gyfer pobl dros ryw oedran arbennig, ac mae yna lot o'r rheina ar gael. Rydyn ni'n awyddus i weld awdurdodau lleol a chymdeithasau tai yn mynd ar hyd y llwybr yna, a hefyd yr ochr gweithio efo iechyd, wrth gwrs, er mwyn ddod â'r ochr iechyd i mewn i bethau.
Within our strategy, there will be a section about the exact issue that you've raised, namely the need to identify specific groups of people and to meet their specific needs. There is a fund called housing with care; that fund means that there is support available within a development. But the way that councils develop their schemes relies on their local housing needs assessments. Within those, there's an opportunity for local authorities to identify the type of mix of homes that will be needed in their communities for the future. That type of thing does come out clearly as a call—for there to be housing developments for people over a certain age, and many of those are available. We're eager to see local authorities and housing groups taking that route, and also working with health as well, in order to bring the health side into things.
The housing with care fund definitely is a fund that tackles this particular area, but the Welsh development quality standard includes the lifetime homes element of that to ensure that anything we build—any new-build houses—are appropriate for that kind of whole lifetime, including over-55s, as you pointed out.
For my age. [Laughter.] Thank you.
Thank you, David. I'd like to thank the Cabinet Minister and her officials for their evidence on empty properties and advise that they will receive a transcript of the meeting to check for its factual accuracy. We'll now move on to the general scrutiny session with the Cabinet Minister. There will be a quick change of personnel.
Diolch yn fawr. Thank you.
We're now going to move on to a general scrutiny session. Could I just ask that the personnel who have just come in introduce themselves for the purposes of the record?
Bore da, bawb. Tracey Breheny, director of local government and planning, on a job share.
Bore da, bawb. Reg Kilpatrick, director of local government and planning, on a job share.
Bore da, bawb. Neil Hemington, chief planner.
Bore da. Alyson Francis, director of housing and regeneration.
Thank you so much. Just so everybody's aware, we will call a 10-minute break once we get through the first section, but for now, if we could just open the floor up to questions on housing. We've got Mike on delivering social and affordable housing. Have you got a question?
I've got two questions, actually, but they're both very quick. One of the easiest ways of increasing the amount of social housing is buying back ex-council houses. Some local authorities are doing it, some are not. Are you going to promote that as a way of getting social housing available? And the second question I was going to ask is this: we're losing housing to Airbnb, which is the one thing that is causing absolute chaos in both the economy and in housing, so are you intending to legislate regarding Airbnb?
Diolch yn fawr am y cwestiwn. Fel y gwelwch chi, mae gen i swyddogion o lywodraeth leol, cynllunio a thai efo fi i drafod y portffolio cyfan. Alyson sydd yma o ran tai.
Mae eich pwynt cyntaf chi ynglŷn â chynyddu'r cyflenwad o dai cymdeithasol yn hollol wir. Dwi'n cytuno'n llwyr efo chi. Mae ffocws clir y Llywodraeth yma ar gynyddu'r cyflenwad o dai cymdeithasol. Fel rydych chi'n gwybod, Mike, fe gollwyd hanner y cyflenwad tai cymdeithasol yn ystod cyfnod y 1980au a dydyn ni byth wedi cyrraedd yn ôl i fyny i'r lefel angenrheidiol. Mae hynna i raddau helaeth iawn oherwydd y polisi a oedd yn bodoli bryd hynny ynglŷn â'r hawl i bobl brynu eu tŷ cyngor. Felly, rydyn ni wedi colli llawer iawn o'r tai cyngor a dydyn ni ddim wedi gallu ailgyflenwi'r cyflenwad.
Pan fydd yna dai cyngor yn dod ar werth, mewn stad yn arbennig, mae o'n rhywbeth mae'r landlordiaid cymdeithasol yn edrych arno fo yn syth, i weld a oes modd iddyn nhw symud ymlaen i gael gafael ar y tŷ yna a dod â fo yn ôl i mewn i ddefnydd. Dydy o ddim cweit mor hawdd â hynny, wrth gwrs, achos yn aml iawn mae angen gwaith uwchraddio sylweddol ar rai o'r tai yna. Pan rydych chi'n mynd o gwmpas, mi welwch chi ystadau o dai lle rydych chi'n gweld lle mae'r gwaith wedi digwydd ar dai cymdeithasol sydd yn dal mewn perchnogaeth gyhoeddus, ond dydy'r un buddsoddiad ddim wedi digwydd efo'r tai sydd mewn dwylo preifat. Felly, mae hwn yn gyfle gwirioneddol, pan fyddan nhw'n dod ar werth, i'r cyngor neu'r landlord fynd ati i wneud hynny.
Thank you very much for that question. As you'll see, I have officials from local government, planning and housing with me to discuss this portfolio in its entirety. Alyson is here in terms of housing.
Your first point with regard to increasing the supply of social housing is exactly right. I agree with you entirely. The clear focus of this Government is on increasing the supply of social housing. As you know, Mike, half of that supply of social housing was lost during the 1980s and we've never returned to that critical level. That is, to a great extent, due to the policy at that time with regard to the right for people to buy their council house. So, we've lost a great deal of that council housing and we haven't been able to resupply that housing.
When there are council homes that come up for sale, in an estate in particular, then it is something that social landlords look at immediately, to see whether it is possible for them to be moving forward to acquire that home and to bring it back into use. It isn't quite as easy as that, of course, because very often there is a need for significant upgrading work to be done on some of those homes. You will see, sometimes, when you go around, housing estates where you see where the work has been done on social homes that are still in public ownership, but the same investment hasn't been made in the privately owned homes. So, this is a genuine opportunity, when they do come up for sale, for the council or the landlord to do that work.
What was the second question, sorry?
Airbnb, which is taking houses out of privately rented. I was asking are you going to bring any legislation to control it, as you control HMOs.
Yn y cytundeb cydweithio yn ystod y Llywodraeth ddiwethaf, lle roeddwn i'n Aelod dynodedig yn gweithio efo Gweinidogion Llafur, mi wnaethon ni ddod â deddfwriaeth i mewn i alluogi cynghorau sir i ofyn am ganiatâd cynllunio ar eiddo sydd yn mynd i ffwrdd o fod yn eiddo parhaol, yn annedd, yn gartref, i fod yn Airbnb. Mae parc cenedlaethol Eryri wedi defnyddio'r ddeddfwriaeth yna. Mae angen i unrhyw un sydd yn gwerthu neu sydd eisiau newid defnydd tŷ—. Mae modd iddyn nhw wneud hynny. Byddwn i'n hoffi gweld mwy o awdurdodau lleol yn defnyddio'r pŵer yna. Felly, mae'r ddeddfwriaeth yna, Mike, a dwi'n cytuno'n llwyr efo chi, mi ydyn ni'n colli gormod o'r stoc dai ar gyfer y math yna o ddefnydd. Felly, fy neges i ydy defnyddiwch y pwerau sydd yna'n barod.
In the co-operation agreement during the previous Government, where I was the designated Member working with Labour Ministers, we did bring forward legislation to enable county councils to ask for planning permission for properties that would shift away from being permanent homes or dwellings and turned into Airbnbs. Eryri national park has used that legislation. There is a need for anyone who wants to sell or change the use of a home—. They can do that. I would want to see more authorities using these powers. So, the legislation is there, Mike, and I agree with you entirely that we are losing too much of the current housing stock for that kind of use. So, my message is use the powers that are there already.
Ydyn ni'n symud ymlaen rŵan i pollution?
Are we moving on to pollution?
No. I've got you down for social and affordable housing.
Have you? Okay. I need to do my homework.
I can move on. I've got two others. Rebeca.
Mae fy nghwestiwn i wedi cael ei ofyn.
My question has been asked.
Obviously, we've heard about Unnos already, and I think that vision is something that's really exciting, has the potential to really change our communities and act as an enabler in terms of housing needs. I'm just wondering if we have any information at the moment regarding how you see the relationship working between Unnos and local authorities, and also whether there's a chance, when developing supply chains around Unnos, to support local construction businesses. Can we have those assurances that local companies will be used, and whether there's potential to use the schemes for apprenticeships for local people as well, and whether that's been a consideration?
Diolch yn fawr iawn am y cwestiwn ar Unnos. Mi fyddaf i'n gwneud datganiad llafar yn y Senedd ar 17 Tachwedd, wythnos ar ôl nesaf. Byddaf i'n gosod allan mwy o wybodaeth ynglŷn â'r cyfeiriad rydyn ni'n mynd ynddo fo efo Unnos. Byddaf i'n sôn am beth fydd Unnos yn ei wneud, a materion eraill o gwmpas sut y byddwn ni'n mynd ati i'w sefydlu ac yn y blaen. Y weledigaeth fawr ydy gyrru'r ffocws clir yna ar gynyddu'r cyflenwad o dai cymdeithasol. O fewn hynny, mae hi'n bwysig cael y sgiliau cywir yn eu lle, ac mae yna broblemau mawr, fel rydych chi'n gwybod, o fewn y sector adeiladu ar hyn o bryd. Felly, cyn sefydlu Unnos hyd yn oed, mae'r drafodaeth yna'n digwydd rhyngof fi a Cefin Campbell, y Dirprwy Weinidog sydd efo cyfrifoldeb dros sgiliau. Mae o'n gwneud awdit sgiliau, mae yna waith yn digwydd, ac mi fyddaf i, fel Gweinidog tai, yn rhoi pwyslais mawr ar ddatblygu sgiliau o fewn y sector adeiladu, nid yn unig, wrth gwrs, ar gyfer y gwaith o adeiladu tai newydd, ond ar gyfer y gwaith o 'retrofit-io', a’r gwaith o ddod ag eiddo gwag yn ôl i ddefnydd, hefyd. Felly, yn sicr, mae hwnna'n rhan o'r hyn rydyn ni'n edrych arno fo.
O ran cwmnïau adeiladu bach, yr SMEs yn y maes adeiladu, dwi'n meddwl bod yna sgôp i wneud mwy i’w cefnogi nhw, a dyna pam rydyn ni wedi gofyn i'r banc datblygu ddod ag opsiwn ymlaen sydd yn cefnogi'r sector, yr SMEs yn y maes adeiladu i fod yn cymryd mwy o fantais o grantiau ar gyfer eiddo gwag, er enghraifft. Maen nhw mor, mor bwysig, yn enwedig yn yr ardaloedd gwledig. Mae'r cwmnïau bach lleol yna yn gallu cyfrannu llawer iawn nid yn unig i greu mwy o gartrefi, ond i ddod â'r sgiliau yna ymlaen drwy brentisiaethau ac yn y blaen, a hefyd, wrth gwrs, i fod yn cefnogi'r economi leol efo seiri a phlymars, ac yn y blaen, hefyd yn cael eu tynnu mewn. Felly, dwi eisiau gweld hynna'n digwydd.
Thank you very much for that question on Unnos. I will be making an oral statement in the Senedd on 17 November, which is the week after next. I will be setting out more information about the direction that we're taking when it comes to Unnos. I will be talking about what Unnos will do, and other issues around how we will set it up and so on. The big vision is to drive that clear focus on increasing the social housing supply. Within that, it's important for us to have the right skills in place, and there are great problems, as you will know, within the construction sector at present. So, before establishing Unnos, that discussion is taking place between me and Cefin Campbell, the Deputy Minister who has responsibility for skills. He's undertaking a skills audit, and work is under way, and I as housing Minister will put a great emphasis on developing skills within the construction sector, not just for the work of building new homes, but for the work of retrofitting and the work of bringing empty properties back into use as well. So, that will certainly be a part of what we're looking at.
Now, in terms of small construction companies, the SMEs in the area of building, I think there's greater scope for us to support them, which is why we have asked the development bank to bring options forward that will support the SMEs in the building sector to take greater advantage of the grants for vacant properties, for instance, because they're so very important, particularly in rural areas. These small local companies are able to contribute a great deal not just to creating more homes, but in order to bring those skills forward via apprenticeships and so forth, and also, of course, to support the local economy with plumbers and carpenters, and so on, being pulled in. So, I do want to see that happening.
Thank you. Elyn next, and then we'll go to Peter.
Diolch, Gadeirydd. Weinidog, fe wnaethoch chi gyffwrdd arno fe ychydig yn fanna, ond dwi wir yn gyffrous ynglŷn â'r uchelgais i 'retrofit-o' ac adnewyddu'r stoc tai hŷn sydd gyda ni yng Nghymru, a'r potensial yna i gymaint o bobl elwa o dechnolegau gwyrdd newydd. Ond, er mwyn gwireddu hwnna, mae angen y gweithlu a'r sgiliau cywir arnom ni. Ydych chi'n hyderus bod gennym ni’r sgiliau a'r capasiti yng Nghymru i gyflawni hyn ar y raddfa sydd ei hangen?
Thank you, Chair. Minister, you touched on this in the previous response, but I'm excited about the ambition to retrofit and to renovate the older housing stock that we have in Wales, and the potential there for so many people to benefit from new green technologies. But, to realise that ambition, we need the workforce and the skills. Are you confident that we have the skills and the capacity in Wales to achieve this on the scale that we need?
Diolch yn fawr iawn am y cwestiwn, a dwi'n meddwl bod maes 'retrofit-io', gwneud ein cartrefi ni yn fwy ynni effeithlon mor, mor bwysig, ac mae o'n flaenoriaeth i'r Llywodraeth yma. Ac mae'r pwyslais yn symud gennym ni fel Llywodraeth. Rydyn ni'n awyddus i symud at agwedd sydd yn cwmpasu ardaloedd yn hytrach na'r math o dŷ, math o tenure, a’n bod ni'n mynd at yr area-based approach, fel rydyn ni'n ei alw fo. Mae yna beilot yn digwydd o gwmpas hynna rŵan, ac yn rhan o'r peilot yna mae ochr y sgiliau yn mynd i fod yn cael sylw penodol. Mae angen i ni rŵan, ar ochr yr economi, fod yn ymwybodol o'r cyfleon sydd yn codi efo holl agenda retrofit. Yn ogystal â chyfrannu at ddatgarboneiddio mae retrofit yn dod â biliau i lawr, ac mewn cyfnod hynod o heriol o ran costau byw, mae unrhyw beth y gall y Llywodraeth yma wneud i helpu pobl ddod â'u biliau nhw i lawr yn hollbwysig.
Dyna rhan o'r rheswm pam mae gennym ni'r ymdrech fawr yma. Ond mae'n wir dweud bod y ffaith bod cynllun Llywodraeth y Deyrnas Unedig—ECO4 dwi'n meddwl oedd o—wedi dod i ben yn sydyn iawn wedi effeithio ar y gweithlu, ac roedd hynna'n anffodus iawn. Mae'n mynd i gymryd bach o amser i ni godi nôl i fyny i'r lefel rydyn ni ei hangen, wrth gwrs, ond mae hi yn flaenoriaeth. Diolch.
Thank you very much for that question, and I do think that the area of retrofitting and making our homes more energy efficient is so very important, and it is a priority for this Government. The emphasis is shifting for us as a Government. We're eager to move to an approach that encompasses areas rather than the type of housing or the type of tenure. So, we're moving towards the area-based approach, and we have a pilot scheme happening around that now. As part of that pilot, the skills side is going to be given specific attention because we now need, on the economic side, to be aware of the opportunities that are arising with the whole retrofit agenda. As well as contributing to decarbonisation, retrofit brings the bills down, and at a time that is extremely challenging when it comes to the cost of living, anything that this Government can do to help people to bring their bills down is absolutely essential.
So, that is part of the reason why we have this great push. But it's true to say that the fact that the UK Government scheme—ECO4 I believe it was—came to an end very quickly had an impact on the workforce. That was extremely unfortunate and it is going to take us some time to return to the level that we need to be at, of course, but it is a priority. Thank you.
Peter.
Cabinet Minister, we talked in the earlier session a bit around delivery of the 20,000 additional social homes. Now, it’s a commendable figure, and we all want to see it. We need to see those houses. We all have youngsters queuing up for places. But I've met with developers on a couple of occasions and asked them collectively what the industry believes they can deliver. They're talking more in the single figures of thousands. I wondered what your expectation was for the delivery of new affordable housing via the development process through LDPs. Are you confident that they're going to get where you expect them to? Some of the things that were constraining them is access to land, slowness of local development plans—all of those things—so, how do all their constraints fit with your expectations?
Diolch yn fawr iawn. Mi ddaru i'r Llywodraeth flaenorol roi cychwyn ar hyn, wrth gwrs, efo'r targed. Roedd gyda nhw darged o 20,000 dros gyfnod o bum mlynedd. Mae yna ystadegau wedi cael eu cyhoeddi'n ddiweddar i ddangos, ocê, nad ydyn nhw efallai'n cyrraedd hynny'n union, ond mae yna gynnydd sylweddol wedi'i wneud yn y cyflenwad o dai cymdeithasol. Fe wnaf i ofyn i Alyson roi'r ystadegau union i chi mewn dau funud.
Rydyn ni, felly, yn adeiladu—pardon the pun—ar y trajecory sydd yna'n barod, a'r pipeline sydd yna'n barod. Dydyn ni ddim jest yn dechrau o nunlle; mae'r peth wedi bod yn datblygu. Mae delivery trajectory y sector yn dangos y bydd yna, y flwyddyn nesaf, dros 4,000 o gartrefi wedi cael eu hychwanegu i'r cyflenwad, sydd yn record. Dwi'n meddwl ei bod hi'n bwysig ofnadwy rŵan i gynnal y momentwm yna. Mae yna gynlluniau yn y pipeline sydd yn fy ngwneud i'n optimistaidd. Er ein bod ni wedi gosod targed uchelgeisiol, mae'n rhaid bod yn uchelgeisiol. Mae yna rwystrau, oes, ac efallai y down ni i drafod rhai o'r rheini, ond mae yna ffocws ar ddatgloi'r rhwystrau hefyd. Dyna be fyddai Unnos yn ein helpu ni i wneud, ond, hyd yn oed cyn Unnos, rŵan rydyn ni'n gweithio ar rai o'r barriers yna sydd wedi cael eu hadnabod mewn nifer o wahanol lefydd, ac efallai y medrwn ni drafod rhai o'r rheini.
Thank you very much. The previous Government made a start on this, with the target. They had a target of 20,000 over a five-year period. There are statistics that have been published recently to show that, well, perhaps they haven't reached that exactly, but there has been significant progress made in the supply of social housing. I'll ask Alyson to give the exact statistics in a moment or two.
We are, therefore, building on—pardon the pun—a trajectory that already exists and a pipeline that already exists. We're not just starting from scratch; this has been developing. The delivery trajectory for the sector does demonstrate that there will be, next year, over 4,000 homes added to the supply, which is a record number. I think that it is very important for us to maintain that momentum. There are plans in the pipeline that make me optimistic. Although we have set a very ambitious target, we have to be ambitious. There are barriers, yes, and perhaps we will discuss some of those, but there is a focus on unlocking and overcoming those barriers. That's what Unnos will help us to do, but, even before Unnos, we are now working on some of those barriers that have been identified in a number of different areas, and perhaps we can discuss some of those.
Thank you.
Alyson, can you just fill us in on some of the data, in case I get it wrong?
The latest stats were published last week and they included housing delivery, in the official stats, for the previous year, and, as the Minister rightly said, a record number. So, they are continuing to increase year by year. What we've also published alongside that is our management information, and those figures from April to September this year were 1,600 units. So, a good start for this year.
As the Minister has talked about in the session, there are a number of different organisations that are contributing to delivering the target. So, rightly, private developers are one of them, registered social landlords are another. You said the target was ambitious. It is ambitious, but I think what we've got is a really ambitious sector as well, which is why we are continuing to see the delivery that we've seen, and engagement—really strong engagement—from all different parts of the sector as well. They are really good foundations that we are continuing to deliver against.
Thank you.
We can provide a note, if you like, on the actual stats, because there's more that we've analysed. We can do that.
Yes, published last week.
They're out there. Yes, last week.
Can I ask, does that count the student buildings, like the new flats that are bought?
They're not there. So, it's housing, is it?
This is social housing. It's housing for tenants who pay that social rent to RSLs.
In perpetuity, yes.
And forever—
Fe wnaf i jest egluro fy mod i wedi newid natur y targed ers yr hyn oedd gan y Llywodraeth flaenorol. Mae'r targed o 20,000 yna ddim ond yn cynnwys cartrefi fydd yno am byth ar gyfer defnydd gan denantiaid cymdeithasol. Dydy o ddim yn cynnwys cynlluniau oedd yn y targed blaenorol oedd yn cynnwys ambell beth oedd yn ymwneud â thai fforddiadwy, ond tai fforddiadwy fuasai ddim yn para yno i fod ar gael i bobl yn y cymunedau fel tenantiaid tai cyngor. Felly, mae'r ffaith ein bod ni wedi tynhau'r targed yn ei wneud o dipyn bach yn fwy heriol eto. Ond, i fi, does yna ddim pwynt datblygu'r cyflenwad mawr newydd yma o dai cymdeithasol oni bai ein bod ni'n gallu cadw fo yn dai cymdeithasol ar gyfer y dyfodol, fel mae'r pwyllgor yma wedi sôn. Ac mae'r pwyllgor yma wedi sôn am osod targed o 20 y cant o'r sector tai yng Nghymru yn dod yn dai cymdeithasol ymhen amser. Felly, mae'r 20,000, y targed rydyn ni fel Llywodraeth wedi ei osod, yn cyfrannu at hynny, ond dydy o ddim yn ddiwedd y stori chwaith.
I'll just explain that I've changed the nature of the target as compared with the one that the previous Government had. That 20,000 target only includes homes that will be there in perpetuity for use by social housing tenants. It doesn't include plans that came under the previous target, which did include a few things that had to do with affordable housing, but affordable housing that wouldn't continue to be available for people in their communities as council house tenants. So, the fact that we've tightened the target makes it slightly more challenging again. But, for me, there's no point in developing this huge new supply of social housing unless we can retain it as social housing for the future, as this committee has talked about. And this committee has talked about setting a target of 20 per cent of the housing sector in Wales becoming social housing in due course. So, the 20,000 target that we as a Government have set contributes to that, but it's not the end of the story either.
Thank you. Are you okay?
Marc, do you want to go on to pollution advice?
This is the one I thought I was going to be asking.
Mae phosphates wedi bod yn bwnc trafod mawr mewn nifer o ardaloedd, gan gynnwys fy ardal i yn Fflint Wrecsam, lle mae dyffryn Dyfrdwy wedi bod yn broblem. Samplau Cyfoeth Naturiol Cymru sydd i gyfrif am y broblem, mewn ffordd. Maen nhw'n gweld eu bod nhw'n broblem. Ond, efallai yn wahanol i bob ardal arall, mae Asiantaeth yr Amgylchedd yn samplo yn yr un afon, ac mae eu samplau nhw yn sylweddol is. Mae yna awgrym gan gyngor Wrecsam, felly, eu bod nhw'n mynd i ddefnyddio'r samplau yna i fedru 'unblock-io' y logjam sydd wedi bod o ran cynllunio yn ardal Wrecsam, yn sicr. Felly, y cwestiwn sydd gen i ydy: ai problem Cyfoeth Naturiol Cymru sydd gennym ni yn delio â hyn, yn hytrach na phroblem phosphates go iawn? Efallai nad ydy o'n cyfwrdd arnoch chi yn uniongyrchol, ond mae'n effeithio yn fawr.
Phosphates have been a major topic of conversation in many areas, including my area in Fflint Wrecsam, where the Dee valley has found them an issue. Samples taken by Natural Resources Wales have accounted for the problem in a way. They see them as a problem. But, perhaps in contrast with other areas, the Environment Agency samples in the same river, and their samples are significantly lower in the Dee. There's a suggestion by Wrexham council that they're going to be using those samples to be able to unblock the logjam that there has been in terms of planning in the Wrexham area. So, the question I have is whether it's a problem for NRW that we have here in dealing with this, rather than a phosphates problem. Perhaps it doesn't touch on your portfolio responsibilities, but it does have a major impact.
Ydy. Dwi ddim yn gwybod llawer am yr achos penodol Fflint Wrecsam yna; fe wnaf i sbïo arno fo. Ond, o ran effaith nutrients a'r asesiadau, mae hynny yn cael effaith mewn sawl rhan o Gymru ar delivery tai a thai cymdeithasol. Mae'n rhaid i ni ffeindio datrysiadau, onid oes, ond mae'n rhaid i'r datrysiadau yna hefyd, wrth gwrs, gymryd i ystyriaeth y llygredd, yr ochr amgylcheddol yn ogystal.
Dwi wedi cael nifer o drafodaethau efo Llyr Gruffydd, y Gweinidog rural resilience and sustainability, ac rydyn ni wedi creu grŵp—nutrients efficiency and resilience group ydy ei enw fo—sydd yn tynnu pobl o NRW a'r asiantaethau perthnasol at ei gilydd, rownd y bwrdd, yn cynnwys pobl o'r sector tai hefyd. Maen nhw wrthi rŵan yn creu gwaith o gwmpas canllawiau ac yn y blaen, ond yn edrych ar y nutrients calculator, sydd yn rhywbeth newydd. So, maen nhw'n edrych ar hwnna, sydd yn berthnasol i dy gwestiwn di, rili, ond maen nhw hefyd yn edrych ar fesurau lliniaru yn y catchment area, ac ati. Felly, mae yna waith yn mynd ymlaen ar hwnna, achos dwi'n ymwybodol iawn ei fod o'n dal pethau nôl.
Yes, it does. I don't know a great deal about the specific Fflint Wrecsam case you're talking about, but I'll have a look at it. But, in terms of the impact of nutrients and the assessments, that is something that does have an impact in several parts of Wales on the delivery of housing and social housing. We have to find solutions, don't we, and those solutions will also have to be taking the pollution into account and the environmental side in addition.
I have had several discussions with Llyr Gruffydd, who is the Minister for rural resilience and sustainability, and we have created a nutrients efficiency and resilience group, which brings people from NRW and the relevant agencies together around a table, including people from the housing sector as well. They are currently working on guidance, but also looking at the nutrients calculator, which is something new. So, they are looking at that, which is relevant to your question, but they're also looking at mitigation within the catchment area, and so forth. So, there is work taking place on that, because I'm very aware that this is holding things up.
I don't know if Neil wants to add to that.
Yes, certainly, I can add to that. There are a number of pieces of work that are ongoing to try and address the issue. I suppose one of the most interesting and most important ones, which is going to be published shortly, is that NRW are producing what they're calling catchment nutrient reduction plans. They will be publishing those shortly for the Cleddau and the Loughor as the first two, and it's going to be an iterative process. From that, we'll be able to start to look at not just, if you like, nutrients arising from development, but nutrients more generally and what needs to be done to get that river back into a favourable conservation status. Once you start on that sort of route, potentially the requirement for nutrient neutrality that is placed on developers becomes a lesser burden, because they just have to demonstrate that they're not going to, if you like, cause a deviation from the trajectory for improvement.
There are a number of things that we are doing across the sector. Ministers are working together on this, officials are working together on this, we're working together with the sector. We're also exploring things like a de minimis approach, certainly for social housing. In many cases, you'll know that the occupants of social housing are already in the catchment, so if there are nutrients coming from that population, it's already accounted for. So, are there things we can do to give local authorities the confidence to release those applications? So, there is ongoing work, but it is challenging in terms of delivery of housing and delivering the 20,000 target.
Yes, it's one of the barriers.
Diolch.
Thank you.
I'm just going to follow up on that. I'm going to declare that I've raised this in the Chamber in my capacity as an MS in Carmarthenshire. It sounds like we're moving in the right area. I think the concern that I have is are we moving with pace. If I look at Carmarthenshire and Pembrokeshire, we've got quite a lot of builders looking to build. Order books are full for socially affordable housing, and the concern that they have, as do I, is if they can't actually get on with this work, not only will we not hit the targets that we've set ourselves, but then we're going to have a massive hit to the economy as well. Because these business are already discussing laying off ground workers, block workers, bricklayers, first-fix carpenters.
I just want understand what the pace is behind it. I spoke to somebody who was discussing a project in Herefordshire where they build lagoons, if you like, around these estates, that actually capture the leakage and deal with the nutrient neutrality in a way that is beneficial for the environment, the building, the construction company, but also satisfies all the regulations. I think there needs to be a bit more clarity and transparency. Until I came here today, I didn't realise that there was effectively a task group consisting of NRW and builders. I'd like to see a bit more transparency around that, but also a bit more clarity around the pace at which we're moving.
Just in terms of pace and impact, NRW and ourselves selected the Cleddau and the Loughor for a reason, because of the impacts in those areas. There are other areas in Wales that are impacted, but they have other choices around development because they have parts of the area that aren't necessarily impacted.
The other interesting sort of development in this space is some of the work that Pembrokeshire have been doing themselves. Pembrokeshire County Council has a county farm estate. It's looking to create a mitigation scheme through that landholding that it has, which will allow development to take place. It's about introducing things like riparian buffers, taking a contribution from the developer to pay for that sort of work. Some of the councils are getting on with the issue and addressing that issue as a matter of pace, particularly where they are impacting in the way you describe.
In Carmarthenshire, their local development plan is going through the process and is nearly at the end stage. We've managed to work with NRW and the council to ensure that that plan can progress, which will then start to release sites when they have local solutions available.
Just as a follow-up to that—I think Marc mentioned it, and also Elyn at some point—are we taking that best practice from those specific councils and using that as a template to drive forward what's quite clearly a major issue?
Dyna ydy pwrpas—. Roeddwn i'n reit glir bod angen i'r grŵp yma fod yn defnyddio esiamplau go iawn ar lawr daear i adnabod beth sydd angen ei wneud mewn sefyllfaoedd ac i ddysgu'r gwersi yna wedyn fel eu bod nhw'n dod yn rhan o'r pecyn cenedlaethol o'r gwaith sydd angen ei wneud, ac mae yna lot o wahanol ddulliau o wneud y gwaith lliniaru. Ond mae yna gynnydd yn digwydd, dwi'n gobeithio. Oherwydd bod hwn yn gymaint o rwystr i adeiladu tai newydd, mae'n rhaid iddo fod yn ffocws clir ac mae o yn ffocws clir gennym ni, oherwydd bod y targed 20,000 yma yn dibynnu ar ddatgloi'r sefyllfaoedd rydych chi'n sôn amdanyn nhw.
That's the purpose—. I was clear that this group had to be drawing on real-life examples on the ground to identify what needs to be done in different situations and to learn those lessons so that they become part of the national package of work that needs to be done, and there are several different methods of undertaking the mitigation work. But there is progress being made, I hope. Because this is such a barrier to the construction of new homes, it has to be a clear focus, and it is a clear focus for us, because that target of 20,000 depends on unlocking the situations that you've mentioned.
Great. Marc.
A gaf i ofyn i chi rannu'r enghraifft yma o sir Benfro efo ni fel pwyllgor? Achos mae hwnna'n swnio fel rhywbeth defnyddiol i ni yn Fflint Wrecsam, a bod yn onest.
In terms of this example from Pembrokeshire, could I ask you to share that with us as a committee? Because that sounds like it would be something that would be very useful for us in Fflint Wrecsam, for instance.
Ydy, ac mi fydd yna fwy o wybodaeth yn dod am y catchment nutrient reducation plans yn fuan beth bynnag hefyd.
Yes, and there will be further information about the catchment nutrient reduction plans in due course as well.
Thank you. Elyn, do you have a question on legislation?
I don't think I do.
Okay. Does anyone have a question on legislation they'd like to ask? No.
Can I ask a question on building safety and remediation, if that's okay? I guess the question is what progress on remediation do you expect from private developers. We're obviously hearing and seeing cases where bodies and organisations and groups of individuals are coming to us saying that they're banging their heads against the wall. We just want to know, as a department, what are you doing. When do you think that you will get on top of all of these?
And then, part of that is around the building safety Act and how that plays into it. Drawing on my previous experience as head of compliance for purpose-built student accommodation, I just sometimes get worried when I see—. We keep hearing the same stories all the time about private stakeholders and developers not getting on with the job they're meant to be doing.
Diolch yn fawr iawn. Rydw i yr un mor rhwystredig â chi ynglŷn â'r gwaith adfer yn sgil trasiedi Grenfell. Mae'n flynyddoedd ers y trasiedi mawr yna ac rydyn ni'n dal yn disgwyl i weld y gwaith yma'n cael ei orffen. Dwi wedi bod yn glir iawn efo'r datblygwyr. Dwi wedi cyfarfod efo'r 11 sydd yn rhan o'r contract efo Llywodraeth Cymru. Dwi wedi cyfarfod â nhw i gyd ar sgrin, ond wedi rhoi neges hollol glir iddyn nhw fy mod i'n disgwyl iddyn nhw fod wedi cychwyn y gwaith ar o leiaf un o'u hadeiladau nhw ym mhob datblygiad yng Nghymru erbyn diwedd y mis.
Mae fy swyddogion i'n monitro hyn yn ofalus iawn a dwi yn falch o ddweud bod y rhan fwyaf o'r datblygwyr i weld wedi gwneud cynnydd da tuag at wneud yn siŵr bod y gwaith yn cychwyn. Fedra i ddim mynd i fanylion, yn amlwg, ond dwi'n gwybod bod fy swyddogion i'n edrych yn fforensig ar hyn i gyd ac yn cyfarfod yn aml efo'r datblygwyr, ac mi wna i ddatganiad yn y Senedd yn y flwyddyn newydd. Dwi wedi ei gwneud yn hollol glir: os nad ydy'r datblygwyr yn cyrraedd y dedlein dwi wedi gosod iddyn nhw ar gyfer diwedd y flwyddyn yma, mi fydda i angen gwybod yn union pam a beth sydd wedi sefyll yn eu ffordd nhw. Dwi hefyd wedi ei gwneud yn hollol glir y byddaf, yn y flwyddyn newydd, yn enwi'r cwmnïau neu'r datblygwyr sydd ddim wedi gallu cyrraedd y gofynion arnyn nhw o fewn y contract.
Felly, mae o yn rhwystredig iawn. Dwi'n gobeithio eich bod chi'n gweld bod y Llywodraeth yma yn gadarn iawn o ran y negeseuon rydyn ni wedi eu rhoi i ddatblygwyr, ac yn parhau i'w rhoi i ddatblygwyr. Rydyn ni'n gwneud popeth o fewn ein gallu ni i symud pethau ymlaen mor gyflym â phosib, ac mae jest yn siomedig iawn ein bod ni dal yn y sefyllfa yma heddiw.
I'm equally frustrated about the remediation work as a result of the Grenfell tragedy. It's years since that major tragedy and we're still waiting to see this work being completed. I have been very clear with the developers. I have met with the 11 who are part of the contract with the Welsh Government. I've met every one of them on screen. I have given them an entirely clear message, namely that I expect them to have begun the work on at least one of their buildings in every development in Wales by the end of the month.
My officials are monitoring this with a great deal of care, and I'm glad to say that the majority of developers seem to have been making good progress towards ensuring that this work begins. I can't go into details, obviously, but I do know that my officials are looking at this forensically and that they are meeting regularly with the developers, and I will be making a statement in the Senedd in the new year. I've made it totally clear that if developers do not meet the deadline I have set for them for the end of this year, then I will need to know exactly why and what has stood in their way. I've also made it totally clear that in the new year, I will be naming the companies or developers who have not been able to meet the requirements placed upon them within the contract.
Therefore, it is extremely frustrating. I hope you can see that this Government is very robust in terms of the messaging that we have been giving to developers, and continue to give developers, and that we are doing absolutely everything within our ability to progress things as quickly as we can. It's just very disappointing that we're still in this situation today.
Thank you. I think that's the reassurance that I need. As I said, as someone who's worked in the industry, it is quite frustrating that we still see these instances occurring, but thank you for that response, Cabinet Minister.
Are there any other questions from any other Members on anything? No. Okay. Can we call a break for 10 minutes? I think everybody could do with a comfort break.
Gohiriwyd y cyfarfod rhwng 10:59 a 11:13.
The meeting adjourned between 10:59 and 11:13.
We're going to move on to planning now. Rebeca, you have the first question.
Diolch yn fawr. O ran rhoi blaenoriaeth i geisiadau tai fforddiadwy, ydych chi'n teimlo bod angen dull cyson ar draws Cymru ar gyfer hyn? A sut ydych chi'n meddwl bod capasiti o ran awdurdodau cynllunio lleol yn effeithio ar geisiadau?
Thank you very much. In terms of prioritising applications for affordable housing, do you believe that there needs to be a consistent method across Wales for this process? And how do you feel that the capacity in terms of local authority planning departments affects these applications?
Diolch yn fawr iawn am y cwestiwn yna. Mae hwnna'n hynod o bwysig rŵan, ein bod ni'n rhoi'r neges ein bod ni eisiau gweld y cynlluniau yn cynnwys elfen gref o dai cymdeithasol wrth inni symud ymlaen. Dwi'n meddwl y gwnaf i ofyn i Neil rannu ychydig bach o'r gwaith sydd wedi bod yn digwydd yn ddiweddar ynglŷn â hyn.
Thank you very much for that question. That's extremely important, that we send out the message that we want to see plans including a strong element of social housing as we move on. I think I'll ask Neil to share a little of the work that has been happening recently around this.
Affordable housing is obviously one of our priorities in terms of policy as well. We work very closely across local government housing and planning, both within Welsh Government and at the local authority level, and a key part of that is the evidence base that local authorities have in terms of the local housing market assessment. So, each local housing authority produces its own local housing market assessment, based on a common methodology, so we can actually start to identify how much affordable housing and how much market housing is needed in a particular area. That's then followed through into the local development plan process, where we set targets for affordable housing and targets for market housing and that's locally generated and they will seek contributions from market schemes towards affordable housing.
What we've identified is that, actually, if you're purely reliant on the market housing to generate your social or affordable housing, you won't get to 20,000. So, there's an awful lot more, if you like, support going into the sector for social housing-led schemes, and similarly we've been encouraging local authorities to have what we're calling affordable housing-led allocations in their LDP. So, the first authority to try that, and they're in examination at the moment, is Monmouthshire County Council, where all of their housing sites have at least 50 per cent affordable housing associated with them. So, we're seeing that as a way to progress the amount of affordable housing. We also have policies that allow exception sites for affordable housing with no limits. So, there's another way to bring land towards delivering social homes. So, there's a lot going on. I would say, generally, in my experience, most local planning authorities and local authorities are very supportive of affordable housing schemes and will work to get those applications through the system as quickly as possible, regardless of the resourcing constraints that some of them face.
Thank you. I guess just a follow-up question to that, really: are we taking forward the recommendations made by the Royal Town Planning Institute Cymru in its report on public sector planning resources in Wales, and, if so, how and when? I guess that's the question.
Diolch. Mae hwn yn adroddiad pwysig a gafodd ei gomisiynu gan y Llywodraeth flaenorol, gan y Gweinidog. Dwi'n meddwl mai Jayne Bryant wnaeth gomisiynu'r gwaith yma, os dwi'n cofio'n iawn. Mae'n adroddiad pwysig o gylch y pwysau sydd ar y gyfundrefn gynllunio yng Nghymru o ran diffyg adnoddau, o ran problemau recriwtio a chadw cynllunwyr mewn yn eu gwaith yn y gwasanaethau cynllunio yn y gwasanaeth cyhoeddus. Fel mae'n digwydd, gwnes i gyfarfod â'r RTPI, sef y Royal Town Planning Institute Cymru, yr wythnos yma i drafod yr hyn sydd yn yr adroddiad a sut rydyn ni'n gallu troi'r argymhellion yma i mewn i weithredu. Bydd eisiau iddo fo ddigwydd ar draws Llywodraeth ac efo gweithio efo prifysgolion ac yn y blaen, ond yn sicr mae hwn yn her sy'n rhaid i ni fynd i'r afael â fo. Beth sydd wedi digwydd yn aml, wrth gwrs, ydy bod unedau cynllunio o fewn awdurdodau lleol ac o fewn cynghorau sir wedi mynd yn llai ac yn llai wrth i bwysau ariannol olygu toriadau, ac yn lle torri ar wasanaethau cymdeithasol ac addysg, weithiau mae'r pwysau yn cael ei gymryd gan yr unedau cynllunio.
Yn ogystal â mynd i fod yn edrych ar yr argymhellion, mi ydym ni wedi symud yn gyflym, ac ym mis Gorffennaf gwnes i gyhoeddi bod y Llywodraeth yma wedi clustnodi arian i hyfforddi 19 o gynllunwyr ychwanegol, so cynllun bwrsari. Ac mae cyngor Ceredigion wedi bod yn rhedeg cynllun bwrsari i gefnogi 12 o rai eraill, achos mae'r broblem hyd yn oed yn waeth yn yr ardaloedd gwledig o ran diffyg capasiti cynllunio. Hefyd, mae angen i gynllunwyr y dyfodol fod yn hollol ymwybodol o anghenion cymunedau Cymraeg eu hiaith. Mae'r anghenion ieithyddol, cynllunio, ac yn y blaen yn bwysig iddyn nhw fod yn ymwybodol ohonyn nhw. Felly, rydym ni'n gweithio efo Prifysgol Caerdydd ar gryfhau'r elfen yna hefyd o'r gwaith.
Thank you. This is an important report that was commissioned by the previous Government, by the Minister. I believe it was Jayne Bryant who commissioned this work, if I remember correctly. It is a very important report regarding the pressures on the planning system in Wales in terms of a lack of resources, in terms of problems recruiting and retaining planners in the planning services in public authorities. As it happens, I met the RTPI, the Royal Town Planning Institute Cymru, this week to discuss the contents of the report and how we can turn the recommendations into action. It will have to happen across Government, working with universities and so on, but, certainly, this is a challenge that we have to tackle. What has happened often, of course, is that planning units within local authorities, within county councils, have become ever smaller as financial pressures have led to cuts, and instead of cutting social services or education, for example, sometimes the pressure is absorbed by the planning units.
As well as looking at the recommendations of the report, we have moved swiftly on this, and in July I announced that this Government had earmarked funding to train 19 additional planning officers, so a bursary scheme. And Ceredigion council has been running a bursary scheme to support 12 other such officials, because the problem is even worse in our rural areas in terms of lack of capacity in planning units. Also, there is a need for future planning officers to be entirely aware of the needs of Welsh-speaking communities. Linguistic communities and linguistic planning are important elements for them to be aware of. So, we are working with Cardiff University on strengthening that element as well.
Thank you. Peter.
Yes, thanks, Chair. I just wanted to come back to the point that Neil was talking about in Monmouthshire and the 50 per cent targets for affordables or tenures. That's commendable. As a past leader of Monmouthshire, I know that, when we put large figures in, the aspiration and the reality are two different things. Because, often, let's face it, how many developers are going to find 50 per cent of their—? It's difficult. Unless you're doing it with an RSL—[Interruption.] Oh, gosh, we're collapsing.
One of the issues, Cabinet Minister, for instance—we had a large site in our area, it was going to be 25 per cent affordables—was viability. It always comes up as a negotiating point by developers, and it traps land for years. So, how much faith can you actually have when local authorities come forward with these aspirations, which are great, but are they deliverable?
Wel, dwi’n meddwl bod ffocws clir y Llywodraeth yma ar gyflawni'r gwaith yma yn rhoi'r neges yna allan yn glir. Efallai dydy'r neges yna ddim wedi bod yn ddigon clir yn y gorffennol, ond, coeliwch chi fi, dyna ydy’r neges mae’r Llywodraeth yma yn ei rhoi allan. Mae’r targed 20,000 yna yn cynnwys pob math o ddatblygiadau cymysg yn ogystal. Ond mae yna heriau, wrth gwrs. A rhan o bwrpas sefydlu Unnos—yn mynd yn ôl at hynny—fyddai i ddatgloi rhai o’r problemau yma, y problemau cyllid. Mae problemau cyllid. Mae problemau tir, o ran tir yn cael ei gadw’n ôl, fel rydym chi’n gwybod, a sut y gallwn ni gael mwy o dir i fewn i’r gyfundrefn, sut rydym ni’n di-risgio mwy o safleoedd. Ond gan fod y ffocws yn fanna, dwi’n meddwl bod hynny yn ein helpu ni i symud yr holl agenda yma ymlaen.
Well, I think that the clear focus of this Government on delivering this work will send that message out clearly. Now, that message might not have been sufficiently clear in the past, but, believe me, that is the message that this Government is sending out. That 20,000 target includes all types of mixed developments as well. But there are challenges, of course. And part of the purpose of establishing Unnos—to return to that—was in order to unlock some of these problems, problems around funding. There are problems with funding. There are problems with land, in terms of land being held back, as you know, and it's about getting more land into the system, and it's about de-risking sites. But because the focus is there, I believe that that will assist us to shift this whole agenda forward.
I don't know, Alyson, if you want to come in on this.
Yes, you're right, viability is a common issue that's raised, and something that Unnos will be—. Well, Stuart and Richard, who were here earlier, they're already starting to look at this, and particularly look at how we can group together different developments to make them more attractive, particularly for private finance, in order to address some of those viability issues. And, alongside—. Richard talked about the placemaking plans. So, it's how programmes there, as well, are brought together under a package, which can be financed, and looks more commercially attractive, really.
If I may, one of the other things that I think people are concerned about, and local authorities are concerned about, is the lack of infrastructure we currently have, and we carry on bolting on extra development on existing infrastructure. And when we've tried in local authorities to create new communities, new villages, if you like, that's been resisted in the past, and we've done that in Monmouthshire in the past. Is your Government going to take a different stance on that, recognising that, sometimes, you've just outgrown your infrastructure and you need to think about new communities?
Wel, mae o’n rhan o’r drafodaeth, yn sicr. A dwi’n meddwl ein bod ni’n dod yn ôl at y syniad yma o greu lleoedd—y placemaking—sydd yn ganolog i’r gwaith rydym ni, fel Llywodraeth, yn ei wneud, diolch i’r Llywodraeth flaenorol. Dwi’n cytuno efo’r trywydd yna, sydd wedi cael ei osod yn barod, o ran edrych yn holistaidd ar y gyfundrefn gynllunio, ac ar y seilwaith sydd ei angen i gefnogi datblygiadau tai, ac yn y blaen. Ac mae’r cysyniad o gymunedau cwbl newydd yn un sydd yn gallu bod yn gyffrous. Dydy o ddim yn mynd i weithio ym mhob rhan o Gymru, wrth gwrs, ond mae o’n gyffrous ar gyfer rhai rhannau, a chyn belled â bod datblygiadau yn rhai sydd yn cynnwys gwasanaethau ar gyfer y gymuned—gwasanaethau addysg ac yn y blaen, ac iechyd. Ond mae o’n approach, yn sicr, y gallwn ni fod yn datblygu.
Dwi ddim yn gwybod a yw Neil yn—.
Well, it's a part of the discussion, certainly. And I think that we return to this idea of placemaking, which is central to the work that we as a Government are undertaking, thanks to the previous Government. I agree with the direction that has already been set there, of looking holistically at the planning system, and at the infrastructure that is required to support housing developments, and so forth. And this concept of entirely new communities is one that can be exciting. Now, it won't work in every part of Wales, of course, but it is exciting for some parts, and so long as developments include services for the community—education services and so forth, and health too. But this is an approach that we could certainly be developing.
I don't know if Neil—.
So, just something else to add to that. I think there's a lot more we can do within existing settlements as well. So, actually, in some ways, identifying large sites on the edge of a settlement is a comparatively easy thing to do; there's a candidate site process where landowners will come forward. There's a lot more work required to actually look holistically at a settlement and find small sites that come forward that may be attractive to smaller builders or may be attractive to registered social landlords and others to diversify that supply. Of course, it can make better use of existing infrastructure in that way.
There's some work that one of the bodies we sponsor, the design commission, have done, looking at specific settlements and how you can identify the land supply within the settlement before you get to urban extensions or new settlements. So, there are things that can be done. There are things that you can use. You can actually engage communities in that process as well to actually make that change.
Thank you. Mike, a question on data centres.
Data centres, they're very important. So, please take my belief in that alongside everything I'm going to say. They use a substantial amount of water. They use a substantial amount of electricity. There are sites that are suitable for them, which are mainly coastal, where we have a substantial amount of electricity already being produced. Why does the Welsh Government not identify suitable sites?
Diolch yn fawr iawn. Cwestiwn pwysig iawn ynglŷn â chanolfannau data. Mae ein swyddogion ni'n gweithio'n agos efo swyddogion sydd yn yr adran economaidd a'r swyddogion penodol sydd yn edrych ar bolisi economaidd digidol i ddatblygu fframwaith polisi strategol o gwmpas canolfannau data. Mae'r fframwaith yna wrthi'n cael ei datblygu, felly fedraf i ddim manylu ar hynny ar hyn o bryd, ond mae yna drafodaethau'n digwydd. Mi fyddwn ni'n edrych ar sut mae gwledydd eraill yn edrych ar ganolfannau data ac yn dysgu o wersi rheini. Mi fydd NICW—y National Infrastructure Commission for Wales—yn gwneud gwaith allanol hefyd yn siarad efo arbenigwyr i fwydo mewn i'r fframwaith, a byddaf i'n dod â diweddariad i'r Senedd cyn diwedd y flwyddyn. Mae o'n faes pwysig i ni fod yn rhoi sylw iddo fo, ac mae hynny'n digwydd.
Thank you very much. An important question regarding data centres. Officials are working closely with officials in the economy department and specific officials are looking at digital economy policy to develop a strategic policy framework around data centres. That framework is being developed at the moment, so I can't give you further details on that at the moment, but there are discussions under way. We will be looking at how other nations are looking at data centres, and we'll be learning lessons from those. The National Infrastructure Commission for Wales will be undertaking external work as well, speaking to experts to feed into the framework, and I'll be bringing forward an update to the Senedd before the end of the year. It is an important area for us to be giving significant attention to, and that's being done.
Just to take everything you've just said, you're not going to be identifying sites.
Well, there's the process with the national development framework, okay.
So, yn ogystal â hynny i gyd, mae gennym ni ymgynghoriad ar hyn o bryd ynglŷn â chreu fframwaith ddatblygu genedlaethol newydd i Gymru—fframwaith bydd yn tynnu at ei gilydd mewn ffordd gofodol y ffordd byddem ni'n leicio gweld Cymru'n datblygu i'r dyfodol. Dyna beth ydy o, hwnna, yn syml. Felly, mae o'n beth pwysig ofnadwy, a buaswn i'n argymell pawb i gymryd rhan yn yr ymgynghoriad yna, sydd yn fyw ar hyn o bryd. Mi fydd hwnna'n ein galluogi ni i ddechrau meddwl yn strategol ofodol ynglŷn â'r strategaeth ynni, y strategaeth ynni adnewyddadwy, ond hefyd y materion fel canolfannau data i weld—. Mae'n rhaid i ni edrych ar Gymru fel uned yn ofodol ac i feddwl, 'Oes gennym ni ormod o rhywbeth?', 'Oes gennym ni ddim digon o rywbeth?' Y math yna o drafodaeth, y sgwrs fawr, sydd angen digwydd, ac mae canolfannau data yn ffitio mewn i hynny, dwi'n meddwl.
So, as well as all of that, we have a consultation currently under way about creating a new national development framework for Wales—a framework that will draw together in a spatial way the way that we would like to see Wales developing into the future. That's what that means, simply put. So, it's very important, and I would encourage everybody to participate in that live consultation. That will enable us to start to think strategically in a spatial manner about the energy strategy, the renewable energy strategy, but also matters such as data centres to see—. We do have to look at Wales as a spatial unit, and to think, 'Well, do we have too much of something?', 'Do we have an insufficient amount of something?' That's the kind of discussion, the conversation, that we need to have, and data centres fit into that, I believe.
Okay.
Thank you. Marc, you've got a question on community-led planning.
Ie. Mae cynlluniau wedi'u harwain gan y gymuned—mae'n lond ceg, onid ydy—yn swnio'n beth da, ac mae'n rhywbeth mae pawb yn croesawu, ond sut mae'r Llywodraeth yma'n mynd i wneud yn siŵr bod hynny'n digwydd go iawn, a dydy o ddim jest yn slogan? Achos dwi'n poeni bod cymunedau'n teimlo bod cynllunio'n rhywbeth sy'n cael ei orfodi arnyn nhw, yn hytrach na rhywbeth maen nhw'n rhan ohono fo.
Yes. Community-led planning schemes sound like a good thing, and something that everyone would welcome, but how will this Government ensure that that really happens, and that it's not just a slogan? Because I am concerned that communities feel that planning is something that is forced on them rather than being something that they're a part of.
Dwi'n cytuno â ti efo'r frawddeg olaf yna, a dyna pam rydym ni fel Llywodraeth yn rhoi pwyslais ar symud tuag at glywed llais cymunedau yn fwy o fewn y gyfundrefn gynllunio, ond hefyd yn fwy cyffredinol. Dyna ydy'r syniad y tu ôl i rai o'r cynlluniau placemaking yma. Mae'r rheini'n gallu arwain at gymunedau a chynrychiolwyr cymuned yn cymryd mwy o ran yn meddwl am ddyfodol eu cymunedau nhw ac am ddyfodol eu trefi nhw. Ond o ran y cynllunio ei hun, dwi'n meddwl bod yna, o fewn y broses statudol sydd yna rŵan, le i'r gymuned fod yn cymryd rhan llawer iawn mwy. Felly, efallai nad oes angen newid y ddeddfwriaeth, ond beth sydd angen ydy newid y pwyslais a galluogi awdurdodau lleol i arwain ar yr ymgysylltu cymunedol yna sy'n gallu digwydd cyn datblygu'r cynlluniau datblygu lleol, er enghraifft, a fuasai'n helpu wedyn i gael gwell engagement pan rwyt ti eisiau adeiladu tai, achos mae'r gymuned wedi adnabod yr angen am dai.
I agree with you on that final comment, and that's why we as a Government are placing an emphasis on moving towards hearing the voice of communities increasingly within the planning system, but also more generally. That's the idea behind some of the placemaking schemes that we've mentioned. Those can lead towards community representatives playing more of a role in thinking about the future of their communities and the future of their towns. But in terms of the planning itself, I think that, within the statutory process that currently exists, there is a place for the communities to be playing a greater role. So, perhaps we don't need to change the legislation, but we need to change the emphasis and enable local authorities to lead on that community engagement that can happen before developing LDPs, for example, which would then help to foster that better engagement when one perhaps wants to construct homes, because the community has identified a need for homes.
Os caf i fod yn synical, mae'r holl fframwaith yna'n barod, ond dydy pobl ddim yn teimlo bod eu llais nhw'n cael eu clywed, so dydyn nhw ddim yn cymryd rhan nes ei bod hi'n rhy hwyr. Maen nhw'n gweld, 'O, mae yna gais cynllunio i ddatblygu cannoedd o dai gerbron fy nghymuned i.' Newid perception ydy hwn i raddau. Sut ydyn ni'n newid hwn? Achos dwi jest ddim yn gweld cynllunio'n gweithio ar hyn o bryd. Mae'n cael ei wneud i gymunedau ac mae'n rhaid i ni newid hwnna. Dwi eisiau gwybod sut mae'r Llywodraeth yma'n mynd i newid y canfyddiad yna, achos dydy o ddim yn gweithio ar hyn o bryd.
If I may be cynical, the whole framework is already in place, but people don't feel that their voice is being heard, so they don't participate until it's too late. They'll see, 'Oh, there's a planning application to develop hundreds of homes alongside my community.' This is about changing perception, to a large extent. How do we change that? Because I simply don't see planning working at present. It's something that's being done to communities, and we have to change that. I want to know how this Government is going to change that perception, because it's not working at present.
Dwi'n cytuno. Dyna pam rydyn ni'n rhoi'r ffocws clir yma ar geisio gweld sut medrwn ni gael llais y gymuned yn dod drwodd yn gliriach. Mae yna gyfleon, fel dwi'n dweud, o fewn y gyfundrefn fel y mae hi ar hyn o bryd, ond efallai dydy'r pwyslais ddim yn cael ei roi ar wneud y darn bach yna o'r jig-so yn ddigon buan a'i wneud o'n iawn. Rydyn ni rŵan yn ystyried sut rydyn ni'n symud at sefyllfa felly, lle mae'r gymuned yn teimlo eu bod nhw'n rhan reit o'r cychwyn wrth edrych ar ddyfodol eu cymunedau nhw.
Mae yna arfer dda yn digwydd. Drwy Gyngor Cymuned y Felinheli flynyddoedd yn ôl, mi wnaethon ni wneud gwaith drwy'r cynghorwyr cymuned yn arwain ar y gwaith a chael y gymuned at ei gilydd i edrych ar y map o'r pentref a gwneud arolwg o beth oedd anghenion tai y dyfodol yn debygol o fod a bwydo hwnna i mewn i'r drafodaeth ofodol. Cawsom ni lot o bobl yn prynu i mewn i'r syniad yna, ond roedd o'n golygu bod y cyngor cymuned yn arwain. Felly, beth rydyn ni eisiau gwneud fel Llywodraeth ydy annog mwy o'r math yna o weithgarwch i ddigwydd yn lleol. Mae yna bethau fel citizens' assemblies efallai gallwn ni fod yn meddwl amdanynt, ac efallai ei gwneud hi'n fwy na jest y cynllunio, ond ei gwneud hi o gwmpas placemaking a'i ehangu ychydig bach i fod yn dipyn bach mwy o ymarferiad sydd yn dod â chymunedau yn agosach at benderfyniadau sy'n effeithio ar ddyfodol y cymunedau. Dwi ddim yn gwybod os ydy Neil eisiau dweud mwy am hynna.
I agree. That's why we are placing this clear focus on trying to see how we can amplify the voice of the community. There are opportunities, as I said, in the current system, but perhaps the emphasis isn't being placed on completing that small part of the jigsaw and doing it in the right way. We now are thinking about how we move towards that kind of situation where the community does feel that they are part of this right from the outset in looking at the future of their communities.
There is good practice out there. Through Felinheli Community Council years ago, we did work with community councillors in pulling together the community, looking at the map of the village, and undertaking a survey of future housing needs in that area and what they were likely to be, and we fed that into the spatial conversation. We had lots of buy-in into that idea, but it did mean that the community council led that process. So, what we want to do as a Government is to encourage more of that kind of activity on a local level. There are things such as citizens' assemblies, perhaps, that we could be thinking about and making it more than just that planning aspect, but around that idea of placemaking and expanding it a little bit to make it more of an exercise that brings communities closer to the decisions that impact the future of their communities. I don't know whether Neil wants to say more about that.
There's a lot we can do. We've got a framework when it comes to the primary legislation; we can change the guidance, we can change the regulations, we can take some of the detail out of the process at the moment. If you look at a local development plan, it's generally at least 2 or 3 inches thick and it's full of policies; the bit that people really want to get to is, 'How my area is going to change.' So, can we find a way of looking at the national development framework to create some national policies that apply to things like town centres and then leave a space for the local planning authority and the officers in the local authority who actually work with the communities about where that change is going to happen and how much change they want to see? So, are there things we can strip out and do elsewhere? They're the sorts of conversations we're having at the moment. How do we work where there aren't town and community councils? Because there are large parts of Wales where they don't exist. So, is there another route that we need to get into there? There's lots we can do without going to the primary legislation, and that's what we've been tasked with—identifying those areas and working with people. At the moment we're collecting ideas, so if people have got ideas in terms of how we could do that, we're very open to receiving those.
Thank you. Peter.
Thanks, Chair. One quick question, and it's around extending rural permitted development rights. I just wondered what your view is, or what your Government's intention might be, around extending those development rights around farm buildings and things. Would you see that as a way to go some way towards, perhaps, unlocking affordable opportunities in rural communities? Have you had conversations with the likes of Llyr Gruffydd to think about how it can also help with succession planning and enable old farmers to move out, if you like, and let children move ahead? Have you got a position on that now?
Diolch yn fawr iawn. Mae hwn yn rhywbeth dwi wedi bod yn ei drafod efo Llyr Gruffydd. Mi oedd ymestyn permitted development rights ar gyfer adeiladau fferm yn rhan o faniffesto Plaid Cymru. Mae o yna yn y rhaglen lywodraethu, ac felly rydym ni'n bwrw ymlaen efo'r gwaith. Rydym ni wedi gofyn i swyddogion edrych yn fanwl ar y gwahanol opsiynau, yn cynnwys adolygu'r permitted development rights, yn union i wneud beth yr ydych chi'n ei ddweud, er mwyn cefnogi parhad teuluoedd fferm. Mae yna brosiect ymchwil yn cael ei gomisiynu rŵan a fydd yn dod â'r opsiynau yma ymlaen. Mae swyddogion cynllunio yn cefnogi'r adolygiad red tape mae Llyr Gruffydd yn arwain arno fo, a hefyd mae yna strategaeth datblygu gwledig yn cael ei datblygu, ac rydym ni'n rhan ganolog o hynna hefyd, yn gweithio ar draws y Llywodraeth.
Thank you very much. This is something that I have been discussing with Llyr Gruffydd. Extending permitted development rights for farm buildings was a part of Plaid Cymru's manifesto. It's there in the programme for government, and therefore we are proceeding with the work. We've asked officials to look in detail at various options, including reviewing the permitted development rights, precisely to do what you're setting out there, in order to support succession within farming families. A research project is being commissioned at present that will bring these options forward. We also have planning officials supporting the red tape review that Llyr Gruffydd is leading on, and also there's a rural development strategy that is being worked on, and we're a central part of that work as well, working across the Government.
Good. Thank you.
Local government, Mike—funding formula review.
The aggregate external finance is calculated by taking into account the ability of councils to raise money, and it's the responsibility of the Government to work out what the need is. That is based upon standard spending assessments. With the standard spending assessment, we always get the aggregate values; we never get the calculations behind them. I've asked for 15 years for those calculations to be made available. I expect your civil servants to tell you it's either not possible or you don't want to do it. But you actually have to have those calculations in order to calculate the standard spending assessment in the first place. Will you provide that information, and make it available on a council basis, so each council can see what the standard spending assessment for each area is and how you got to it?
That's a really good question, and I will turn to my officials, if you don't mind. Go on, Reg.
We publish extensive and detailed information on how we calculate the standard spending assessments. That's all publicly available on the Welsh Government website, and it's called the Green Book. There are a number of spreadsheets that detail by service level, by indicator-based assessment level, including the weightings that apply to each service, including the data that feature in and drive those formulas. So, I would say we do publish a huge amount of information. That comes out every year alongside the settlement, so that those people who are interested—. We can provide a copy to this committee of last year's Green Book, and the other associated data, if that would be of interest.
I'm not asking for the Green Book. I've read through the Green Book. You do these calculations in order to work out standard spending assessments. I don't want the answers that you come out with after you've done those calculations. I know what the formula is. I want to see the numbers you put into that calculation for each service area. That's what I'm asking for, and I keep on asking for it. I'm sure you'll give me another good reason why you can't provide it, but you have it yourself, because you're using it in order to calculate the standard spending assessment in the first place.
I think the information that we do publish will enable people to replicate those calculations. As I say, we publish the weightings, we publish the data that drive the formula, and we publish a detailed document on the methodology as well.
As the Minister, I will look into this.
Thank you. I've had 15 years of asking for this, so I don't expect any great success at this stage.
No, but I need to understand much more about this particular element than I do at the moment. Thank you for raising the profile of that.
I think, as the Chair—and I take Mike's point—and being new to this position, I'd like to know, if that exists, why we can't see it.
I will pursue that and maybe even have a briefing. We can prepare a briefing around the way that we calculate the assessments, even, if you wanted to go into that detail. Tracey.
I was just going to come in on the briefing point, because, Minister, we've made an offer to the committee to undertake a technical briefing, which I think is being picked up by the clerk, so hopefully that will be helpful too.
We'll make sure that that point is covered in that technical briefing.
Thank you, and thank you for taking on the commitment to do that independent review—something that Reg knows I've asked for for many years, and there have been lots of reasons why I've been told it's not worth doing. Perhaps that might prove the case in the end, we don't know, but it's good that it's going to happen. I think a briefing will be really valuable to understand the scope of what the review might look like.
Reg, you mentioned indicator-based assessments and things, notional spends—actually, what do they mean? Because actually you don't have to spend to your IBA; it's purely an indicator to help create the picture for each authority. Will the assessment of the formula broaden out a bit wider to assess all of the components that arrive at local authorities' assessments? So, I think that opportunity to meet and have a briefing to help us scope it out will be really useful.
I had a couple of questions. I suppose, as a former local government leader, I'm quite anxious about the future of some authorities, because, as I said before, we all know we would like a bigger quantum. We know that's not likely to come, but it's how the cake is carved up, which I'm pleased that we're going to have. But within that cake, we've seen such a variety. I just went through every statement of accounts for every authority, and there are two or three still not published yet. I'm not sure why they haven't published for 2025-26. But you still see these great variations in usable reserves.
We know there are purposes for those, and this, that and the other, and lots. But what it demonstrates at a higher level is the unsustainability of some against others, and that's what I'm hoping your review might come to understand: how we can actually make sure that we do have sustainable councils for the future. I wondered if there's been any assessment undertaken of the cumulative impact of Welsh Government policy requirements on councils, because we do expect a lot on councils. They're autonomous. They do their own things. But what assessment have we done? And if that assessment isn't ongoing or isn't complete, how can the Government be confident it is not overburdening councils? Where's the nuance around all of that?
Mi wnaf i sôn yn sydyn am yr adolygiad o'r fformiwla cyllido, yr un rydych chi wedi'i groesawu. Mae gwaith yn mynd ymlaen yn annibynnol o Lywodraeth ar hwnna. Mae'n bwysig bod y gwaith yn digwydd yn annibynnol. Mi ges i gyfarfod yr wythnos yma efo'r finance sub-group i drafod y sgôp ar gyfer yr adolygiad yna. Mae o'n eang ei sgôp. Bydd o'n edrych ar sut mae gwledydd eraill yn dosbarthu arian allan i'r cynghorau sir ac yn edrych ar y gwahanol elfennau. Felly, mae'r gwaith yna'n digwydd. Dydy o ddim yn mynd i newid pethau ar gyfer y flwyddyn ariannol nesaf. Mae'n mynd i gymryd mwy o amser na hynny, achos mae o'n faes cymhleth, fel rydyn ni'n gwybod.
O ran sut rydyn ni'n gwneud yn siŵr nad ydym ni'n rhoi gormod o bwysau ychwanegol ar lywodraeth lol, mae'r cytundeb partneriaeth strategol yn allweddol i hyn. Eto, diolch i'r weinyddiaeth ddiwethaf, mae yna rŵan gytundeb partneriaeth yn bodoli rhwng y Llywodraeth ganol a llywodraeth leol, ac rydyn ni wedi arwyddo hwnna, wedi ei adnewyddu rŵan mewn cyfarfod efo'r WLGA. Roedd y Prif Weinidog yna. Rydyn ni wedi ymrwymo i gadw at beth sydd yn y cytundeb yna, ac mae'r cytundeb yna yn ei gwneud yn hollol glir mai creu ar y cyd sydd angen digwydd pan fyddwn ni'n sôn am delivery o fewn llywodraeth leol o bolisïau newydd ac yn y blaen; polisi o fod yn gweithio efo'n gilydd ar y deilliannau rydyn ni i gyd eisiau eu gweld yn digwydd o fewn ein cymunedau ni. Mi fyddwn ni'n gweithio ar ail ran y cytundeb yna dros yr wythnosau a misoedd nesaf yma hefyd. Felly, dwi'n meddwl bod y cytundeb yna a'r elfen yna o drafod, reit o'r cychwyn efo llywodraeth leol, pan fyddwn ni'n dod â phethau newydd ymlaen, yn hollbwysig ac yn greiddiol i'r ffordd dwi'n gweld y berthynas yn gweithio.
O ran cynaliadwyedd llywodraeth leol, rydych chi'n iawn i fod yn codi pryderon ynglŷn â hynny. Wrth i'r sefyllfa ariannol fynd yn heriol iawn ar gyfer y flwyddyn nesaf, mae materion o gwmpas cynaliadwyedd hirdymor yn dod i feddyliau pawb ohonon ni. Mae'r Welsh Centre for Public Policy wedi gwneud darn o waith pwysig yn ddiweddar ar yr holl fater o gynaliadwyedd llywodraeth leol. Ar y cyd efo llywodraeth leol mae hwnna wedi cael ei wneud, unwaith eto yn rhoi yr approach yna o weithio efo'n gilydd, a dyna sut ydw i eisiau gweld hyn i gyd yn datblygu wrth inni geisio rhoi llywodraeth leol ar lefel mwy cynaliadwy, rydyn ni angen bod yn ei wneud o efo'n gilydd. Dydy o ddim yn fater hawdd. Mae yna nifer o elfennau i'r darlun yna, ond mae yna gyfnod heriol ac mae'n rhaid i ni edrych ar y cynaliadwyedd tymor hir, ac fe wnaiff Reg ddweud mwy, dwi'n siŵr.
I'll mention briefly the review of the funding formula, the one that you've welcomed. That work is under way and is being undertaken independently of Government. It's important that that work is done independently of Government. I had a meeting this week with the finance sub-group to discuss the scope for that review. It's a very wide-ranging scope to look at how other countries distribute and allocate funding to councils, and it will look at the different elements. So, that work is being done. It isn't going to change things for the next financial year. It's going to take more time than that. It's a very complex area, as we all know.
But in terms of how we ensure that we don't place too much additional pressure on local government, the strategic partnership agreement is a key part of this. Again, thanks to the previous administration, there is now a partnership agreement in existence between local government and central Government, and we have signed that, we have renewed that now in a meeting with the WLGA. The First Minister was there. We have committed to adhering to the contents of that agreement, which makes it entirely clear that it's co-production that needs to happen when we talk about delivery within local government of new policies and so on; it's a policy of working together on the outputs that we all want to see within our communities. We'll be working on the second part of that agreement over the coming weeks and months as well. So, I think that that agreement and that element of discussion, right from the very outset with local government, when we introduce new things, are critical and are at the heart of how I see that relationship working.
In terms of the sustainability of local government, you are right to be voicing concerns about that. As the financial situation becomes increasingly challenging for the next year, matters around long-term sustainability arise in all of our minds. The Welsh Centre for Public Policy has done a very important piece of work recently on this whole matter of local government sustainability. That's been co-produced with local government, once again pursuing that approach of working together, and that's how I want to see all of this developing as we try to put local government on a more sustainable footing, we need to be doing it together. It isn't an easy matter to tackle. There are many elements to this, but there is a challenging period ahead and we do have to look at that sustainability in the long term, and Reg will say more, I'm sure.
Thank you, Minister. Can I just add something on the pressures on local government and what we do to try and identify those and fund them? Legislation is a particular issue; it was identified by the Audit Wales report, actually. Part of any new piece of legislation is developing the regulatory impact assessment. This is about identifying the cost pressures that will come to local government as a result of implementing that new legislation.
That work features in the strategic partnership agreement, as the Minister says, and is an activity and a shared endeavour. We, in my directorate, but certainly in directorates across the Welsh Government, try and work very closely with local government, because coming up with a set of accurate and robust costings for new legislation and, indeed, other activities where that applies is very important. That work is ongoing all of the time for new legislation. Quite often, there are post-implementation reviews of legislation, just to make sure that the costings originally developed were accurate, and if they weren't, there is then an opportunity for further discussion about how those costs are refined or funded as we go forward. So, I hope that helps.
Yes, thank you.
Diolch, I forgot about the RIAs.
Mike, a question on council tax reform.
I think we're running very close to time—
We are, yes.
—so I'll pass at this stage.
You're going to pass, okay. Peter, one on regional partnerships or corporate joint committees.
Corporate joint committees. I know that, Cabinet Minister, you may have had certain reservations, so I'm sure you'll be scrutinising CJCs thoroughly going forward, but they are an entity that are in place. Are they a really important strategic tool to deal with some of the things we talked about earlier, about place-led issues like data centres? Can't we be using CJCs more, whilst they're there, as an entity to facilitate proper strategic planning and to bring about some of the answers that can transcend just local government or local council issues? I was part of, certainly, setting up city deals and I still have some serious empathy for what they're going to do, but I can see the opportunities that they could be used for more, if they're developed in the right way, and I just wondered what your position might be with CJCs at the moment.
Diolch o galon am y cwestiwn yna, cwestiwn pwysig, ac efallai gall y pwyllgor edrych ar beth o'r gwaith yma hefyd; byddai hynna'n ddefnyddiol iawn. Dwi'n meddwl ei bod yn sgwrs sydd yn fyw iawn. Mae wedi dod yn fyw yn rhannol yn sgil yr hyn mae Llywodraeth y Deyrnas Unedig wedi bod yn ei ddweud yn ddiweddar ynglŷn â datganoli, a datganoli o fewn rhanbarthau. Maen nhw'n sôn amdano fo ar lefel y Deyrnas Unedig. Mae'n ofnadwy o bwysig i bwysleisio drwy'r amser fod unrhyw newidiadau sy'n digwydd yng Nghymru angen digwydd yng Nghymru ac o fewn trafodaeth yng Nghymru efo llywodraeth leol ac efo partneriaid rhanbarthol. Mae hwnna'n bwynt pwysig i'w wneud, a dwi'n credu, o'r negeseuon dwi'n eu cael yn ôl gan y Prif Weinidog o'r trafodaethau mae o wedi'u cael efo Prif Weinidog y Deyrnas Unedig, fod Andy Burnham yn derbyn mai ni fuasai'n gwneud unrhyw fath o newidiadau.
Mae Prif Weinidog Cymru wedi gwneud araith yn ddiweddar yn sôn am hyn i gyd, a'r angen i ni fod yn edrych ar yr haen ranbarthol, ac edrych yn ofalus ar yr haen ranbarthol. Rydyn ni i gyd yn gwybod bod yna ganfyddiad, o leiaf, fod yna ailadrodd, fod yna ddyblygu yn digwydd yn yr haen yna. Mae'r CJCs yn rhan ohonyn nhw ac mae edrych ar hwnna i gyd yn rhywbeth rydyn ni yn ei wneud. Mae'n rhaid i fi ei wneud o ar y cyd, wrth gwrs, efo'r Gweinidog economi a'r Gweinidog dros effeithiolrwydd Llywodraeth. Mae hynna i gyd yn fater sydd ar flaen ein meddyliau ni, ond wnawn ni ddim symud yn sydyn a wnawn ni ddim—oni bai bod pawb eisiau ein gweld ni'n symud yn sydyn. Ond mae'r diwygiadau yma yn mynd i fod yn cymryd amser i'w gweithio nhw drwodd.
Beth rydyn ni wedi ei ddweud ydy nad ydym yn mynd i ad-drefnu llywodraeth leol—mi fyddai hynny'n cymryd llawer gormod o'n hegni ni i ffwrdd o faterion eraill—oni bai bod yna ryw awydd mawr yn dod drwodd i wneud hynna, ond dydy o ddim yn flaenoriaeth gan y Llywodraeth yma. Ond mae'n bwysig creu haen effeithiol o gwmpas y gwaith rhanbarthol ac yn enwedig o gwmpas gweld sut y bydd rhai o'r mentrau economaidd sy'n dod o Lywodraeth y Deyrnas Unedig yn plethu mewn efo'r strwythurau sydd gennym ni yng Nghymru, sydd yn strwythurau gwahanol iawn i'r hyn sydd yn Lloegr. Tracey.
Thank you very much for that question, which is an important question, and perhaps the committee could look at some of this work as well; that would be very useful. I think that it's a very live conversation. It has come alive, in part, as a result of what the UK Government has been saying recently about devolution, and devolution within regions. They're talking about it at a UK level. It's extremely important to emphasise all the time that any changes that take place in Wales need to take place in Wales and in discussion within Wales with local authorities and regional partners. That's an important point to make, and I believe, from the messages I've been getting back from the First Minister from the discussions that he's been having with the Prime Minister, that Andy Burnham accepts that we would be the ones making any types of changes.
The First Minister recently made a speech where he was talking about all these things, and the need for us to look at the regional level, and to look carefully at that regional level. We all know that there's a perception, at least, that there is repetition, that there is duplication within that level. CJCs are a part of that level and looking at that in its entirety is something that we're currently doing. I have to do this jointly with the economy Minister and the Minister for Government effectiveness. That whole issue is at the forefront of our minds, but we won't move quickly and we won't—unless everyone wishes to see us moving quickly. But these reforms will take some time to work through.
What we have said is that we will not be reorganising local government—that would take far too much of our energy away from other issues—unless, of course, a great desire comes through that there's a wish for us to do that, but it's not a priority for this Government. However, it is important to create an effective layer around the regional work, particularly around looking at how some of the economic initiatives coming from the UK Government interweave with the structures that we have in Wales, which are very different structures to those found in England. Tracey.
Thank you, diolch, Minister. I was just going to make two points in terms of the CJCs, if that's all right. One is that there's a very useful—which we could circulate to the committee—OECD report, which really provides the evidence for having effective and strong regional arrangements, if you like, in Wales, so it might be useful for the committee to see that.
And the other is that Local Partnerships have recently done a review of all of the CJCs, because they're still relatively young in their development, and a set of recommendations has come out from that, which obviously the Minister will want to be considering, and the Ministers for economy and Government effectiveness, in terms of what improvements could be made in the here and now, whilst there is the conversation that the Minister referenced with local government and others about the medium term. Thank you, diolch.
Thank you. David, if it's very quick, because I've got a question for the Minister myself.
Yes. Well, I think Siân answered the question.
Okay.
Obviously, Minister, before we conclude the session, I'd just like to ask whether you're able to confirm the Welsh Government's position on granting consent in relation to the UK Government's Representation of the People Bill.
I can't remember where we're at with that now. Are we expecting a legislative consent memorandum?
I think we may be. Could we check?
We can check and come back to you on that particular point.
Thank you. Well, I think that concludes the session, you'll be glad to know, so I'd like to thank you for your evidence and your attendance here today. And obviously you will receive a transcript of the meeting to check for its factual accuracy. But, again, thank you very much.
Diolch yn fawr.
Thank you very much.
Okay, so we're on to item 4, papers to note.
Can I move that we note them?
Yes, okay.
Cynnig:
bod y pwyllgor yn penderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y cyfarfod yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 17.42(ix) ac o'r cyfarfod ar 12 Tachwedd.
Motion:
that the committee resolves to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting in accordance with Standing Order 17.42(ix) and from the whole of the meeting on 12 November.
Cynigiwyd y cynnig.
Motion moved.
And then we go to a motion under item 5, under Standing Order 17.42, to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of this meeting, but also for the whole of the meeting on 12 November. Thank you.
Derbyniwyd y cynnig.
Daeth rhan gyhoeddus y cyfarfod i ben am 11:55.
Motion agreed.
The public part of the meeting ended at 11:55.