Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru

Yes, of course. Christopher Catling. I'm the chief executive of the Royal Commission on the Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales.

Let me begin by saying that we are a very small organisation. We're 25 staff. I think I've given you, in the written evidence, a breakdown of what those staff do. So, we have very limited capacity to do anything other than what we were set up to do in the first place. Having said that, we are absolutely thrilled by the support that the Minister has given and the boost that she's given to culture, heritage and sport in Wales, and want to support it in every way we can. So, I continually say to my staff, 'We have to think about real world problems. What is it that culture can do to help to resolve some of the real world problems that we face?' Problems like the appalling figures for mental health in young people, in particular, the numbers of young people out of work or education, and the reduction in the degree to which people take part in sport any more—what can we do to help with all of those things? The answer is, in a limited way, we want to engage more people in our work, which we do. We've been quite successful at getting heritage lottery funding for community engagement projects, archaeology, studying the local history of the area, particularly around Aberystwyth, because that reduces our costs. We're based there, so we don't have all the expenses of travel.

We contribute quite a bit to educational—. We provide educational materials to the Hwb and we work with teachers. We bring them to our premises, we show them the resources that we've got to help them understand their local history and deliver the cynefin element in the curriculum. We do a lot of guided walks—for people with special needs and for people with disabilities and so on as well. So, we're doing everything we can to contribute to that. I can hear critics saying in my head, 'But that's treating heritage in an instrumental way for values other than what you were set up to do.' But, personally, I feel very strongly that we have to address real-world problems as well as enhance the archive by recording the buildings and the archaeology that we do.

How measured? Again, it's—. You can make interventions in people's lives on a very small scale. What's really needed is big—big interventions, big numbers. And people's lives—. I mean, the big statistics are going to be how many people you help into apprenticeships or training schemes or jobs. That's the sort of real measure of your success, but quite elusive as an ambition.

Oh, yes. Absolutely, and more and more so. In the last decade I think we've come to raise our horizon from the core business of recording buildings that we're going to lose because of their demolition or their change of use or whatever, into being an organisation that works with many, many community groups around Wales. And there is a strong sense—. I think we're valued, as an organisation, much more now.

I think one measure of that, you know, in terms of how we measure these things, is we've recently advertised for a chair and three new commissioners, and we had a record—. The public appointments unit told us that a record number of people had applied for those posts, in terms of what they normally get applying for public positions. So, to me, that's a measure—. So, in actual numbers: 25 people applying for a commissioner role, seven applying for a chair's role. So, that's 32 in total. And I think that's a big change from previously, where we would perhaps have struggled and I would have had to encourage people I knew who would be potential commissioners to apply. I think that's a measure of how Wales now perceives us as an organisation.

We've literally reduced, in the last 10 years, from 54 staff down to 25 because our budgets have remained flat. So, the only way we've been able to stay within budget is by freezing posts when people retire and move on to other jobs. We've been able to supplement that core staff with staff on contract by being quite successful at winning funding from the National Lottery or from research councils. So, when we are able to obtain a grant, we hire a separate group of people to deliver it. We're not using Welsh Government funds to deliver that project, it's a 'supplement to' and it enhances what we're able to do.

So, for example, we've been studying nonconformist places of worship for 10 years now, but the recent grant from the National Lottery Heritage Fund for our Capeli Cymru project has meant that we've been able to step it up—a big scale uplift. We've reached a point where, now, the loss of any staff is—. We're vulnerable to the loss of any member of staff because many of them are performing unique functions and if we can't replace them, then that function ceases. And to give you a specific example of that: we used to provide a huge amount of help and advice to local authority conservation officers. We provided a service whereby, for listed building consent applications, they wanted our advice—. They value our advice because we have a pan-Wales understanding of the resource, and we can say to them 'yes' or 'no', 'This is or is not something that you should approve', but more importantly than that, we can give them pre-planning advice, so actually meeting the owners of properties and explaining to them what's special about their property, and how to protect and enhance it. We've had to freeze that post, but I am working hard with Cadw, and with our sponsored division in Welsh Government, to try and get a little bit of extra funding to restore it. Because conservation officers valued it so much and are now asking, 'What's happening?' So, that's the situation at the moment. If we lose a member of staff, the function goes.

In terms of our budget, about 80 per cent is staff costs, another 12 per cent or so are fixed costs, like computer cyber security and software licences and data preservation, those sorts of things. So, you can see there's very little wriggle— 'headroom', is that the correct term? There's not a lot of headroom left for other things.

Diolch. And what is the morale like with staff at the moment as well, because that drop you mentioned in 10 years—? I think you said as well you're a small but highly productive team, and that's obviously shown in the work you do. So, when you lose one member of staff, as you say, it can be quite significant, but the amount you've lost in the last 10 years—how does that impact the morale and also the work that you want to do? How much staff would you need, do you think, to achieve what you want to achieve?

Well, working in heritage is more of a vocation, it's a passion, and my colleagues are just wonderful at picking up. So, we have a member of staff at the moment who's been diagnosed with a very serious illness and is likely to be out of office for the next six months, and people have readily stepped in to take up the work, which is quite vital, because it's community engagement. They've been wonderful. But staff surveys have shown that it is placing a strain on staff. How many people would make a difference? Well, I set out a business case, which I sent to the Minister, and she's acknowledged and thanked me for setting out the case for 10 additional staff. So, that would take us to 35. But I've prioritised them, and the top priorities would be—. The local conservation officer advisory function would be No. 1, then cyber security, which is an increasing problem for us—I mean, literally, daily, there are messages from Welsh Government cyber security, asking us to check various things, vulnerabilities that they've discovered—and then the third one would be the library and enquiries service, which is our public service, where people come in and look at the archives. We've got three members of staff, which sounds a lot, but, in fact, if somebody's on holiday, if somebody goes to the loo, if somebody's having a lunch break or whatever—there has to be one person all the time in the search room, and another person going and fetching stuff. So, as you can see, with three people, managing that is quite difficult.

Diolch.

Diolch yn fawr. You raised something there about conservation officers in councils. What happens if there isn't a conservation officer in a council, because I'm aware that that is the case, or has been the case, in my constituency?

I agree, this is very problematic. What tends to happen is that the planning department will pick up the conservation aspects of the work, but without necessarily having the specialist expertise to judge the list of building consent applications.

Right, okay. That's something that—

It is a problem. There is a high turnover of conservation officers in local authorities, which, again, shows that our help and support and upskilling of those conservation officers is a vital service.

Does Cadw provide any of that type of thing? Can you work with them to be able to—

We do work very, very well with Cadw, and we have a built environment forum that meets regularly, which brings conservation officers together from all over Wales, and keeps us up to date with the latest policy guidance and case studies of good examples, of good reuse, for example, of listed buildings.

Is there a statutory requirement for councils to have conservation officers?

Not that I'm aware of. And, in fact, many local authorities across the UK have reduced their conservation officer cover because they are struggling financially.

Right, okay. Thank you very much for that. I'm going to go to Beca next, who's online.

Right. Later this week, I'm helping Welsh Government organise a series of workshops at the national library, at the Minister's request. She's particularly interested in talking to people who would not normally be consulted, so I've taken on responsibility for trying to bring together community, heritage, culture and sport groups to come and give their feedback to the Minister. I've been thinking hard about—. It's such a big topic, how do you get people to give valuable feedback? In addition, we need to think very hard about what we can do at little cost. It's not—. Financial constraints mean that we can't say, 'We can do this provided you give us several million pounds.'

I think, thinking about it, the big issue that is beginning to form in my mind is the need to recruit people from the community who volunteer to be the cultural hub in whatever it is they choose to do, so the person who runs the football or hockey club, the person who helps to fundraise for the local church and so on. So, I think my thinking is revolving at the moment around how do we encourage a spirit, an ethos of volunteering in this sector, and how do we skill people to do that work. I'm also very keen to hear from the community groups who take part in the workshops this week how they encourage young people to get involved in heritage, culture and sport. What is it that—? Are there any ideas that we can copy? Are people even aware of the challenges?

Diolch, Gadeirydd. I know that you touched on funding a little bit earlier. Given the Welsh Government's commitment to increase funding year on year for the sector, and I note you mentioned earlier that you've already sent a business case to the Minister, what further discussions are you actually having with the Government about your future financial arrangements?

We have regular meetings with our sponsors in Welsh Government, in the directorate of culture, sport and tourism. I've literally come from one of those meetings just now, making the case to them for some extra expenditure. They won't know until next week what the allocation from Welsh Government is to the division, the culture, sport and tourism division, but I'm hoping that, when they know that figure, we'll be looked upon favourably for a small increase. I'm not greedy, I'm not looking for big amounts of money, but a small amount—£70,000—would make a difference.

And the Government has made that quite clear to you today, then?

No, they haven't made it clear to me. They've said, 'We don't know until we hear the outline of the budget next week.'

Okay. Are there any areas of your statutory or core responsibilities that you believe are actually being under-resourced at the moment?

Well, I would say the entire enterprise is under-resourced. But in thinking about that, I'm a realist, and I know what the demands are upon Welsh Government's funding, and I know that there are really pressing priorities. So, what I tend to think about now—raising a new topic here—is how we can achieve the kind of capacity that we need in order to do our job properly, the stewardship of the historic environment in Wales. I'm beginning to think that, if you add together ourselves, Cadw and Heneb, you've got a historic environment service of some scale and capacity. So, you probably are aware that we've had discussions with Cadw over 18 months about the possibility of integrating the two organisations. I'm sure that's going to come back on the agenda once the cultural strategy has been agreed.

In your evidence to us, you've highlighted compliance that you have to report on on a very regular basis, for example, on cyber security, access, diversity, and other things as well. What discussions have you had with the Welsh Government about compliance in a perfect world? And what additional investment do you believe you need to enable you to fully deliver on that compliance?

I'm just trying to remember the three pieces of compliance that have come in this week. We have been asked to complete a questionnaire about our contribution to biodiversity, to the 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan', and to children and young people. The problem with a lot of these questionnaires is that they're scattergun. Everybody gets asked exactly the same questions, regardless of whether you've got any leverage, whether you've got any influence on any of those policies.

The impact upon us is that we now have to have somebody whose full-time job—well, she's actually three days a week—but it is a fairly hefty job, simply complying with all of these demands. Sometimes, I wish I could send out a questionnaire of my own, saying, 'Have you all complied with your duties of stewardship towards the historic environment, please? Answer the following 10 questions.' Yes, it's a burden.

And you mentioned earlier on, in response to Niamh's question, that you've seen quite a significant reduction in your staffing numbers over the last few years. Are there any particular skills gaps or succession planning concerns that you'd like the Welsh Government to address in those circumstances?

It's exactly that: it's succession planning. The skills that my colleagues have are not ones that you learn by going to college and reading books. They're skills that are learned by working alongside people who've got the knowledge and experience and can pass it on, and that's how I learned. So, the fact that we have a large number of singleton posts—we employ the only person in Wales who's responsible for maritime heritage; we employ the only person in Wales who undertakes aerial reconnaissance during the summer months; we employ the only expert in geomatics in Wales, and so on—the loss of that post, without having passed on what is—. These are not transferable skills. They're not the sort of thing you can go out into the open market and say, 'I want so-and-so.' What you'd actually be doing would be poaching from archaeological and architectural consultancies, or from heritage agencies in Scotland, Wales, Ireland, or possibly even here. So, yes, singleton posts is one of the big issues on our risk register.

Okay. Diolch, Gadeirydd.

Diolch yn fawr. Nick. 

Thank you. Hi. I think Niamh and all have answered some of my questions, actually. It sounds to me that you've got this capacity deficit, and even if you had the 10 extra positions, would that get you to a place where you were able to get the succession in place, where you would be able to deal with compliance? Really, that's almost taking you to your baseline—

It is. 

—and without that, it's a real struggle.

It would give us the foundation to build on and respond, for example, to the Minister's call for all of us as public sector bodies to contribute to the preventative health agenda, for example. 

But does that also lead into—you talked about it earlier—the potential to collaborate, to merge with the other organisation? Is that because it's the best thing to do for your organisation, or are you being left with no alternative option because, the way things are going, you simply can't comply with your statutory requirements, or the statutory things you're supposed to be doing? And therefore, it's out of reluctance, perhaps, or is it out of best practice—? Is it going to be a better organisation, or is it simply something you have to consider?

It began, as you say, out of necessity: could this make a difference? But the more I think about it and the more I've had discussions with others in the sector, the more I think that it offers a creative opportunity to think through what Wales needs in terms of a national institution responsible for the stewardship of the historic environment. So, I see it as a very creative opportunity, as long as we don't just carry on doing what we've always done. It would need fresh thinking.

So, it's something that you would consider potentially positively.

Yes. Oh, absolutely, yes. I want to be as positive as possible.

I have got some more questions on that, but that's a different question that someone else might pick up, so I can elaborate on that afterwards, if you like. Thank you. 

Yes, okay. We will be moving on now to ask about your relationship with Cadw, your organisation's relationship. So, Niamh, would you like to start with that? 

Diolch. Yes, I know that this has been going on for a couple of years now, the 'will they, won't they?' with the merger, and there have been pieces of work and different opinions from different people in charge in Government. You kind of touched upon it, in response to Nick, that you see it as quite a potentially positive area.

Yes. 

I wanted to know what key considerations would need to be had if that merger were to happen, from your perspective, and if you've had these discussions as well with the new Welsh Government. Because where we last left off with the previous one was that it was still unknown what the next steps are, after that report was brought out about it. So, yes, it was just getting your thoughts, and if you could give us an update on where we're at now with it. 

Yes, absolutely. Where we were until the election in May was that we had identified the integration of Cadw and the royal commission as delivering quite a number of benefits, but with some issues that remain to be resolved. One was the cost of integration. Another was the future of the national monuments record of Wales, because if we had merged with Cadw, we'd have been in the very unusual position of having a Government Minister responsible for a public archive. And there were real concerns at the time because various manifestos were talking about 'the correct version of history', for example, or 'an official version of history'. We didn't want to see ministerial interference in what should be collected by an archive, what should be made available, what should be disposed of. So, that remained an area of concern.

Where we are in the discussion with Welsh Government, I don't have any official sanction to say this, but I do think that what's going to happen is that we're going to consider the culture strategy and priorities first, and then consider what institutions Wales needs to deliver the strategy. And it's in Plaid Cymru's manifesto that they want to look at the effectiveness of the four organisations, Visit Wales, Cadw, Creative Wales and the Arts Council of Wales. And I think when they say 'look into the effectiveness', the effectiveness to do what? Well, to deliver the agreed strategy once we've defined it. So, I think there's a timescale there and a series of things that will happen.

Okay. And going back as well to a paper that the previous Welsh Government gave to the predecessor committee, it also noted at the end that legislation was identified as the preferred approach to achieve this protection. Of course, we'll talk about more long term again after the culture strategy, as you mentioned. Is it your opinion as well that legislation is the way forward when it comes to the merger?

It would be the optimum solution, similar to the way that Welsh Government has a statutory responsibility to maintain historic environment records, something they delegate to Heneb. And they also have a statutory duty to maintain a list of historic place names in Wales that can be used as a resource, and they've delegated that to us. So, if we made it a statutory duty of Welsh Government to maintain a national monument record for Wales, that would be essentially what we would be asking for.

Diolch.

Nick.

[Inaudible.]—about the independence.

On the ministerial interference? Yes, yes it would. There are a couple of other models. The TNA, the National Archives in Kew, is a non-ministerial Government department, which means that it's accountable to Westminster, but the Minister delegates his or her powers to the chief executive of TNA. So, that's another model.

Thank you.

Steven.

I think you've actually touched on quite a few of the bits I wanted to talk about. I want to bottom out this relationship between you and Cadw. It sounds like, from what you're saying, especially with the conservation office, you're already working together or trying to get a degree of integration. 

We're very complementary. There might be a perception that we duplicate. We don't. We're complementary in our work. We are, if you like, the research arm of the historic environment sector. We make recommendations to Cadw for what should be listed or scheduled and protected, and they then take it on from there. They devise policy. That's their job, advising the Minister, whereas our job is recording heritage that's being lost, heritage at risk, and providing a service to people who need that information for planning purposes, master planning, education, research, whatever.

We work very closely with Cadw. We consult each other. We have regular meetings. When we went to the Eisteddfod in August, we offered them the use of our stand because they didn't have their own, so we presented a joint front there. I think there's a very strong desire for us to work even more closely together. We are about to do a project with them to celebrate the centenary of the opening to the public of Bryn Celli Ddu on Ynys Môn, the Neolithic chambered tomb. We will produce an exhibition for Oriel Môn and a booklet about it to support what Cadw is doing. If we've got skills or capacity that they might not have, we provide it.

Again, I think you touched on safeguarding and versions of history as well. I know, within Cadw, there is a decolonisation agenda.

Yes.

I don't know if there's one within— 

We've been very much part of that. They drew on our databases in order to identify potentially controversial— 

How do you safeguard that you're actually, I suppose, telling—? You're not just telling another version of history. Here, you've maybe got a more traditional version, and then you're just telling another version, and you're kind of maybe obscuring—

Absolutely. No, no, there's no intention on anybody's part, either ours, the Minister's or Cadw's part, to censor anything. It's just a question of consciousness raising, making people aware of the histories of these monuments, buildings and people in the way that the National Trust has done and other organisations.

Is there a price tag on that? 

Okay, to put it in figures, I think we found about 32 examples of contested heritage. So, it's not big scale. The opposite side of identifying contested heritage is what's been happening in Wales, which is celebrating people for other achievements. We've seen a lot of monuments being created and opened to people who've contributed to Welsh identity, through education, poets, novelists, musicians and so on. So, there's a positive side to that as well.

I won't ask you now what those 32 examples are, but—

Well, they're quite well known.

—if I could understand what those 32 examples are in the future. 

Yes. We've also worked with People's Collection Wales to create what we call a decolonisation kit, which is to identify inappropriate terminology that's been used in the past. And again, not to overwrite it, not to censor it, but to flag it and explain context and alternatives.

Okay.

Alternative terminology. More acceptable terminology. This is a very, very tiny example, but we used to talk about emigration and immigration. And these days we just talk about migration, because emi/immi implies—it's discriminatory. It implies that you're a foreigner. And migration has been a fact of life throughout history, throughout human history. That's just a tiny little example. I could give you many more. I can see you're sceptical.

No, it's just interesting because, again, all these words are very politicised. It depends, I suppose, whoever's visiting the monuments, what political viewpoint they take on these aspects. So, again, I think it's challenging in order to do this in a balanced way.

It is. 

And I think it's challenging, especially where there's labelling something, how it's labelled, and to do it in a balanced way, which is going to take in the majority of your visitors to the—

I completely agree, and we welcome feedback, very much so. If we get it wrong, we get it wrong; we'll put it right. 

So, sorry, how do you then go out for feedback on these various issues? 

People give us feedback whether we want it or not. We don't have to invite it.

Right, so there's not a formal process to go, for example, 'We're going to label it, we know it might be controversial, so with this QR code, we'd like your feedback on how'—

Yes, indeed. And also, we do it through our social media posts. We always invite feedback. There is a marvellous tool on the internet that will scrutinise the feedback that you get and tell you, on a scale of 1 to 10, how positive or negative it is. We've done pretty well up until now. Most of our complaints come about the software being down, Coflein. You're probably all aware there's been this major problem with internet PHP language vulnerabilities. For a while, people had to take their websites down to fix them. Immediately, we got a flood of complaints about, 'Why isn't Coflein available?', which is very positive because it means people are using it and they miss it.

Thank you.

When I had a look at your annual report, I was really surprised at how much engagement you have with communities, but also how much they engage with your websites. That was really quite impressive.

I'm very sorry that we haven't been able to provide the latest annual report to you, it's just that protocol demands the Minister approves it first, but it's with the Minister now and I will let you have it as soon as it's passed. I think it shows another record year of engagement and actually making a difference to our knowledge and our understanding and the lives of people in Wales.

I must say, having worked in the heritage and culture sector before coming here, I do really understand the value of heritage and culture and how it can, at the end of the day, help our communities understand themselves through looking at—

Cadw has recently published a report attempting to put a monetary value on heritage. It's challenging. It's difficult. It probably underestimates it. It's the background to everybody's lives. It's difficult to put an economic value on general well-being and living well because your environment is well maintained.

But also, in terms of networks that are established through doing that work and the friends that you make and the—

Two comments on that. First of all, yes, we've got a formal network of friends, there are now 1,700 of them, to whom we regularly send out newsletters. But engagement with heritage does have a very real impact on people's health, particularly mental health. We had a National Lottery Heritage Fund project looking at the archaeology of the Iron Age hill fort Pen Dinas above Aberystwyth and Penparcau. We worked with people who'd been recommended to us by Mind, the mental health charity, to take part. We did a pre- and post-participation survey and saw that, for people who were suffering from grief, loneliness, anxiety and so on, their mental health improved. The most fundamental reason they gave was because they felt that they were making a worthwhile contribution to the project. I think that says it all. People need to feel valued. It has a marvellous effect upon their mental health if you can give them something that will enable that.

Niamh, would you like to—?

Yes. This touches on something that's come up a couple of times. It's off track a little bit, sorry. It's to do with the cyber security side. You mentioned the work you're doing on the website as well. When the national library came here, they gave quite a scary overview of the struggles they're facing with cyber security at the moment, and also the AI side. I think they said there were bots coming in and trying to take information that the library provided. I was just wondering if you're in a similar situation as well.

Absolutely, we are. We are very fortunately kept well aware of threats by the Welsh Government's own cyber security team, who are in turn informed by Government Communications Headquarters. They send out an immediate notice to us of things that we have to check. We have two members of staff who look after our IT. One of them is now virtually full time on cyber security, it's become that big, and it reflects all the tensions and problems that there are around the world at the moment of hostility from some nations.

Are you getting the AI side as well, with people—?

Nothing specifically AI driven. We find AI itself can be a very useful tool, particularly for analysing our own data. There are large language models, and then there are closed language models. We're using AI to look at our data, where we feed the data that we want the AI to work on, and it's not accessible to anybody else. Whereas with an open language model, anybody can get access to it. But, yes, the royal commission is seen as a potential gateway to the Welsh Government's computer networks, so they're constantly probing us to try and find weaknesses.

Thank you. That's interesting.

Can you tell me a bit about your Capeli Cymru project, where you are with that?

That's a wonderful project. National Lottery Heritage Fund very imaginatively realised that Anglican culture gets all the publicity, the money, and Wales has got a proud tradition of nonconformist religious buildings and religious heritage. They were very keen to understand this better, to guide their own funding decisions. We are approaching the end of the first phase. It's a five-year project, the first 18 months is data gathering and developing a plan of activities for the remainder of the three and a half years. We're working on that report now.

As part of the first 18 months, we've conducted an audit of nonconformist places of worship in Wales. There are about 1,700 still in use of the 10,000 or so that were originally built. We're conducting an audit. We've created questionnaires that we have disseminated, first of all through the major denominations. So, they've helped us—the Baptists, the Methodists, Undeb yr Annibynwyr Cymraeg, the Quakers, the Presbyterians, the independents, various others. They've asked their members to report back to us.

But also we've crowdsourced information. We set up a website and said to people, 'Would you like to go and visit the chapel in your village or hamlet and tell us what condition it's in, whether it's still used?' We've managed to get data on about a third of all the existing chapels in Wales. That is information also about the future and what's likely to happen over the next 10 years and also what your needs are to maintain these buildings as places of worship. We're digesting that data now, ready to feed it into our recommendations for stage 2.

Some of the clear steers that we've been given by congregations are that, back to what I was saying about volunteers earlier, buildings need people who are willing to step up, fundraise and look after them. They'd like to see us set up a network whereby people who've been successful at fundraising can advise others. It's about communication, more and more information, information about good examples of chapel reuse where the significant heritage of the building is retained in whatever the new use should be, rather than chucking it all in a skip or putting it on a bonfire. And advice on how to manage the archives, because many of these congregations have cupboards full of records going back to the early nineteenth century.

Working with architects as well will be part of the second phase, discussing the potential for the reuse of these buildings, because some of them will inevitably have to close, and explaining to people what the closure process is and what the opportunities are for the community to intervene—if a community wants a building to be declared a community asset, how do you go about doing it. So, it's a whole programme of activity there that we're really looking forward to delivering and that will give us a strategic view of what's happening.

I have a personal ambition. I've not discussed this widely with anybody yet, but I'd love to see a world heritage site. There are these transnational serial world heritage sites. This year, for example, it's the UNESCO-designated porcelain manufacturing centres in China. They're dispersed all over China. Could we put together fine examples of non-conformist architecture in Patagonia, the United States, South Africa, Australia, New Zealand, everywhere where Welsh people have gone and settled and set up historic chapels?

While you were talking, I was just thinking about a question, because I know there's a Swansea in Massachusetts, and I was wondering if there are any linkages in your work with the Welsh tourist board and that sort of side, to try and get—

Not with the Welsh tourist board.

Or with the city itself, I suppose, to try and—. You know, this is the foundation where congregations basically moved en masse and founded towns in the US and others.

There is a very lively Welsh language publication in the United States that circulates amongst the Welsh communities in the United States, and they often report on our work. They're very interested in it, so we can build on that.

Was the aim of Capeli Cymru to support people in finding new uses for chapels?

Yes, that will be one of the outputs from the operational phase. We want to hold up good examples of how to repurpose these buildings in ways that are useful to society but also protect the heritage significance. Some really don't have a huge amount of heritage potential and could very easily be turned into low-cost accommodation and homes. Some that are much more significant in terms of what they can offer can be turned into artist studios or a mortuary—there's an example on Ynys Môn where it's become a mortuary, so it's kind of continued its original function. There are other examples. We want to be creative about thinking what is an appropriate and benign use for these buildings, and then to publicise these examples so that communities who are thinking about closing their chapel can actually have a checklist of things that they might think about.

One thing that's sticking in my mind is this: if the relationship between your organisation and Cadw were to become closer and you merged, what would we lose? What would be lost? What do you do that couldn't be otherwise done?

That's an interesting question. It did come up in our discussions with Cadw. We felt uncomfortable about being part of an organisation within Government, because the ethos is of—. What is the word? It's the BBC's principle. Impartial. That's the word. Within Government, in the civil service, you have to be impartial. We are proud advocates for the historic environment and for heritage and culture in Wales and we want to continue being advocates.

Many of us are trustees—or chairs, even—of heritage organisations around Wales and we feared having to give up some of that work. I think that was the biggest sense of loss if we remained within Government. Coming out of Government, if Cadw—. Back in 2014, I think it was, when a merger was last considered, the proposal was to bring Cadw outside of Government and create a new organisation in Wales analogous to the national library and the national museum, with a constitution and trustees. I think that is a model that we might revisit.

Right. Thank you very much. Mike, you'd like to ask a question. Oh, you're on mute, I'm afraid.

I'll start off by declaring an interest as a Welsh Baptist. What's happening with chapels, they have ageing and declining congregations. They don't decide just to close. They close when you end up with very few people there. Some get down to three or four, and the three or four are probably in their 80s or 90s. So, I think that there is a need for some sort of strategy as to what to do with these brilliant older buildings.

I have suggested that Tabernacl in Morriston be turned into a museum of Welsh religion. I didn't get very far with the previous Government and I'm fairly certain I won't get very far with the current Government on that. But what's your view on creating a museum of Welsh religion?

I'd welcome it, but we all know that there's a cost involved. When buildings close, there are furnishings and stained glass and textiles and all sorts of objects that have real cultural significance and value, and there is no home, there's no repository at the moment for that sort of material. But, having said all that, we've all got to be wary of the cost.

But I completely am with you on the nature of the problem. It is declining congregations, it's elderly people, and, very often, four or five congregations merge into one. They sell four of the five chapels, and they raise money from the sale for good social purposes. So, nobody's objecting to that, and if the chapel is itself not a particularly special building—. So, really, it's a question of identifying those that are the most important ones in Wales that one should close only as a very, very last resort, if we possibly can. I think that's where we're heading.

Diolch yn fawr. Mike.

We know which are the big chapels, don't we? I mean, some of them are—. Things happened, like in Loughor, at the start of the revival. We've got the grade I listed chapels. We've got one in Morriston, we've got one in Bethesda. Surely, there should be a view that those grade I listed buildings are saved no matter what.

Yes, I completely agree, but not just the magnificent ones. There are some rather humble ones as well that represent the origins of nonconformity in Wales that we must also protect. So, it's not just the big and the beautiful, but, yes, I completely agree. 

I'm just referring back to you talking about recording heritage at risk. In my home town of Merthyr Tydfil, there are several really significant buildings that are at risk. Two of them at the moment are going through a very difficult time and will be regenerated. And there are concerns about what's going to happen to the fascias of these buildings, basically. One of them is the Merthyr general hospital and the other is the Hoover site. Of course, there's also the synagogue, which is having a lot of work done on it.

That's a good news story.

Yes. 

The repurposing of that synagogue as a centre for study and understanding and appreciation of the contribution of the Jewish community to Wales is an outstanding project. We've helped with that one by understanding the building and advising what's original and how it would have looked originally when it was built as a synagogue.

It is a huge perennial problem, and you might have seen in the newspapers in the last couple of weeks that the Westminster Government in England has decided to set aside a fund of money to help local authorities take control of buildings that are persistently neglected. It's not a big sum of money, and I question whether it's going to have the desired effect because, as soon as an owner is challenged over repair notices or compulsory purchases, they will go straight to court. Courts are expensive and local authorities typically don't want to have to spend money on legal fights. So, I'm not sure. But they're talking about confiscating buildings and auctioning the leases to local community groups and local businesses. Again, I've no idea how realistic that is as an idea, but it suffers from the fact that about 25 per cent to 30 per cent of all the neglected buildings in Wales are actually owned and managed by local authorities. And some of these big complexes—you mentioned a hospital and the Hoover site—are on such a large scale that it requires something pretty creative to rescue them.

I just have a question—[Inaudible.] So, obviously, you record the heritage that's at risk. Do you have a figure or an overview of what the scale is looking like of our heritage in Wales? Are there certain areas in the heritage sector where you're seeing that risk being even more significant compared to other bits?

Cadw keeps a heritage at risk register and all local authorities also have heritage at risk registers. There's an interesting difference between Wales and England on this side because England published its heritage at risk register literally last week and it showed the number of properties that had been saved and rescued and the number that had been added to the list. I'm trying to think of some headline figures. One of them was in Stratford-upon-Avon. It was Anne Hathaway's—. No, it wasn't Anne Hathaway's cottage; it's Shakespeare's daughter's house in Stratford-upon-Avon that is on the register. In Wales, the tendency is not to provoke owners by shaming them, but rather to try to work with them. So, I don't actually have the figures to hand. I could probably get them from Cadw.

We, ourselves, have had to focus on heritage at risk in our work because, with limited capacity, you have to focus on something. And we focused on schools recently because the twenty-first century schools programme meant that a lot of historic schools were made redundant and new, more sustainable buildings were put up in their place. So, we've done a big study of schools and I'd very much like to encourage schools to look at the history of their buildings as part of the cynefin element in the curriculum. And on 1970s civic centres, we've done a lot of recording of those that are going to be demolished because of local authority reorganisation or because those buildings have become unsustainable. So, those and places of worship are the three main strands, and then, on the maritime side, coastal erosion and sea-level rises mean that we're doing quite a bit of recording of coastal heritage sites—lime kilns, for example.

Interesting. Diolch yn fawr. Mike—online—you had a question about historic place names.

Oh, yes.

Yes. I think that we have places that have been known by certain names, some in Welsh, some in English, some in Latin and some in Norman French. Should we be trying to protect what they're known as locally and the names that are used for them, rather than trying to translate everything into Welsh?

Our role in this is to compile a register, a list of historic place names in Wales and then encourage local authority naming officers and developers, entrepreneurs, to use that list as the basis for naming their new developments. We don't have the power to force anybody to change the name of their house, street, business, industrial estate, shopping centre, or whatever, but we do strongly encourage it.

There's a value in itself to collecting these historic names and understanding the way that they've changed and developed over time. They are dynamic. James January-McCann, who runs the list, is doing a huge amount. He's out, maybe, 10 days in every month, working with local community groups to collect names. A lot of them are oral—they're passed on by farmers and their families, and it's interesting, when you talk to them, and they'll say, 'Well, my grandfather called the field this, and we call it that', and they do change.

We've applied for UNESCO intangible heritage status for historic place names in Wales and we've got through every stage so far. So, there is a recognition that place names are an important part of the heritage. And next year will be the tenth anniversary of the Senedd passing the requirement for the list to be set up, and we're going to mount an exhibition., I'd hoped it was going to be in the Senedd Oriel, but I think that's probably fully booked, so it might be at the Pierhead building. And we're going to produce a 98-page booklet that we're going to send to every school in Wales, explaining why place names are important and explaining their history and development.

But we don't make a judgment. We're not there to tell people.

Can I ask what you think the role of place names has in terms of the regeneration of the Welsh language in Wales?

Oh, it's absolutely vital. Speaking as somebody who's come to Wales, it's my way into the Welsh language. I've learned so much Welsh vocabulary through place names, and I make it my business as I drive around Wales to try and understand the place names, topographical names, names that tell you about the landscape, about the history, the people, the saints, the early Celtic church, the Latin origins of some place names. And I personally promote place names as an aid into the Welsh language.

Yes, I was just going to ask whether you felt anything else stronger than persuasion was needed. There has been some talk about legislation, hasn't there, enforcing people to keep names. I don't know what your thoughts about that are. 

I remember the debate at the time, and, from memory, it failed the human rights scrutiny, that people have a right at the end of the day to call their house what they want to call it. You can't twist their arms and enforce them to change it. There was a piece of research undertaken, I think with Cadw funding, that showed that the main problem was businesses giving themselves English names, like The Happy Donkey Sanctuary—I think that was one that was quoted widely at the time—and holiday let companies who seemed to think that an English name, 'Bide-a-Wee', was going to be more acceptable to their customers than Tŷ Gwyn, or whatever. So, it was human rights. But local authorities can be—and I include in that the national parks—very persuasive, working with owners to persuade them to stick with a Welsh name, or revert to a Welsh name, or use a Welsh name, particularly when it comes to new housing estates, new roads, new industrial estates, new retail parks, or whatever. That's where our maximum leverage comes.

Yes, it's following on from what Nick said. So, the Cabinet Minister for Education and the Welsh Language said that the Welsh Government has actually started considering legislation to protect place names.

Okay.

I was wondering if you've been a part of that.

No, but that's a very interesting development, yes. 

So, something you're not involved in yet.

Not yet, but I'm sure we will be.

With all the data. That's fine. Diolch.

I have one last question, but I'm not quite sure whether it's your remit or not. Blue plaques—there's no blue plaque strategy in Wales, there's no one authority, is there, who is responsible for these? And I just wonder what your thoughts are.

That's a lovely idea. I'm going to take that up with Cadw. 

At the moment, I think you've got to go through the local authority. Is that right?

I've no idea. 

There we are. That's no good to me. [Laughter.] Thank you.

But I like it as an idea. It's wonderful. It's very popular and, as you know, it's grown in England from being a London-focused initiative into being nationwide now, and people are invited to nominate rather than a committee of the great and good deciding who should be commemorated. It's the community that makes recommendations.

When constituents ask us about—

Yes. That would be particularly valuable for many chapels, because there are people associated with those chapels, and that's their major significance. It's the value of the association of a hymn writer or a sermonist, or somebody who took a community to America in the early days. 

Interesting. Thanks.

Thank you. I've enjoyed answering your questions. I hope it's come across as very positive at the end of the day, despite all the problems.

Hello. I'm Lorna Virgo and I'm the director of finance and business services at the Arts Council of Wales.

Hello. I'm Maggie Russell and I'm the chair of the Arts Council of Wales.

I'm the chief executive of the arts council.

Did you want to go first?

I'm very happy to answer that. I declare an interest: I've spent most of my life working either in the arts or the creative industries, so I've had experience in both those areas. I think one of the things, when you're working in the field, is those areas are intrinsically linked. So, perhaps we might notice it most around the things we see above the line—that actors move between productions in the theatre, productions on television, productions on film. But that movement and intersectionality happens at all levels, whether it's prop makers, electricians, all the craft skills. I'm very aware that I can trace individual examples of talent who started off as a script editor over there and is now writing a play for the Welsh National Theatre and has also worked on various other projects. So, I think, in terms of both talent development and workforce development, they're interlinked. I don't know if that answers your question.

I suppose I would like to think of it as a virtuous circle, so that there are individuals, projects, ideas that begin a life over here and then some of them transition, whether they begin in a subsidised arts world and then transition into a more commercial film or television world. Some don't. Some composers work across both sectors and are enabled by the higher wages they receive in one area to help get them through a much tougher time when wages in live events are generally not at the same high level.

So, I suppose I would like to see in Wales a thriving interconnection between those sectors, whilst also recognising that we don't want to judge the live arts sector—let's call it that—by the matrix that we would apply to the cultural industries always, because I think that there is value in things that don't always have a product. I was at Rubicon Dance the other night, a community dance project. Well, that looks very different in the way that it works with its audience and participants. There's not going to be an end product for that, but the value is in that shared experience. But I would hope that in Wales we could be blessed to have an ecology between both those sectors that would benefit all of our artists, really. 

As you say 'ecology', I think one of the things that we really need to do within the arts and creative industries is to map the ecology, because it is quite difficult. I've had experience of going into work in the arts and wondering, 'Where do I fit? How can I get in?', and all the rest of it. So, for transparency's sake and things, I think that mapping is important.

Interesting, yes.

Right, I'm going to move on now. 

Diolch, Gadeirydd. Your annual report shows participation across multi-year funded organisations falling from 695,080 participants in 2024-25 to 588,477 in 2025-26, despite actual significant levels of public investment. What in your view explains this decline, and what corrective action is being taken to improve this public engagement?

Do you want me to go first? 

Yes, you go first. I'll follow on. 

I think there are a couple of things happening there, to be perfectly honest with you. I think that we're seeing audiences increasing. What's happening in Wales, we are something like 25 per cent above where we were pre-pandemic. The picture in the rest of the UK would suggest that it's something like 6 per cent. However, what is happening as well is that there's been a drop in the number of events. And that's to do with—. It's to do, partly, with the funding that we transfer to our multi-year funded organisations, in the sense that there is less funding to support the number of events. We are aware, in participation, I think it's down by 26 per cent, isn't it? I think those are the figures you referenced there. It's particularly down in young people and children. It's down in young people and children by 30 per cent, and that's a concern. And we're looking deeply into that.

But one of the things that has been happening, due to the financial situation that the sector finds itself in, is that many organisations or venues that would host a lot of the participatory activity cannot afford to stay open for six out of seven days a week, which they used to do. I think they used to close simply on a Sunday. What we're finding is that with the strains of keeping a building open because of the increasing costs, some organisations might not open until the Wednesday, and they'll stay open Wednesday until Saturday. Well, that takes at least two days out of the week when that participation activity used to take place.

So, it's a matter of concern. I'm really glad you've raised it, as we've been looking at this. But that is one, unfortunately, of the side effects of the fact that the financial difficulties that the sector is facing mean that some organisations or some venues simply can't stay open, and therefore be open to have those participatory activities happening as they used to. 

And given we've seen that decline, you're still confident that your funding model is fit for purpose. 

Yes, I think we are. I think there are some aspects of what's in the accounts where there potentially isn't all of the information that has been received back by us from the organisations that we support, but absolutely the trend there is still that there is a slight reduction. I think that what's really important is how we look to support those organisations, both across revenue funding, but also capital. So, as Dafydd referenced, it's an increased challenge to keep those buildings open. Now, part of that is because of the operating cost, but also the cost of repairs and maintenance. So, we really welcome the additional funding we've had this year and last year to support that, but there's still an increased need, demonstrated by our own internal research, over the next four to five years, around £182 million. So, we recognise the challenge, we recognise that there is significant work to do, and that's why we would always advocate or speak about the need for longer term funding horizons, so that we can try and tackle some of those fundamental challenges within the sector.

You mentioned capital funding there. I know that, as an organisation, you've distributed more than £12 million through the Welsh Government capital programme, including major awards of £1 million to Elysium Gallery, £1 million to Venue Cymru and £1.875 million towards Theatr Clwyd. Can you tell us what assessment has been undertaken to determine whether these projects will actually deliver increased audiences, financial sustainability and economic benefits, and how will success be measured over the next five years when it comes to some of these projects? 

I can begin if you like, and I can answer in English as the conversation is in English at this point in time. One of the fundamental considerations we have in assessment is that organisations have to prove that it enhances the sustainability of that business. That is key. And that by making those capital changes, whatever they may be in those organisations, they won't increase costs and come back to the public purse for additional funding. I think that's one of the fundamental points that we make. We assess that then in terms of, if that is not clear in applications, then we certainly wouldn't be funding them, in that sense. So, that's one of the key things.

Other elements in there would be sustainability in terms of efficient energy, what are the savings that come with that, to make the running costs cheaper. I'm thinking of some of the other elements. Do you want to come in on that, Lorna? But I just wanted to come in on that fundamental point first.

Yes, I think I was going to follow on from what you were saying, Dafydd, in terms of how important it has been to recognise that the capital programme that we've had via the funding from Welsh Government is evolving, and that we are working within a relatively tight time frame to be able to deliver that funding, which does impact the type of capital projects that we can award. So, that has been another factor in terms of our assessment, but fundamentally it's about helping to support the sustainability of the sector. That may be financially, it might be environmentally. They work, obviously, quite closely in tandem. And I think what we've seen is that those applications that we're able to support have really been able to demonstrate that within their applications in terms of the impact. So, for example, the Minister attended an organisation where revised seating was put in place, and actually that application was really able to show us the financial impact of that new seating—all of the seats would be available.

So, those types of things are really important to the assessment, and then the ongoing—. The way that we finance this capital fund, we need to make sure that that money is, obviously, spent by the end of the financial year. And so there's a huge amount of monitoring and assessment that's done in that period, to make sure that that is delivering exactly what it was supposed to.

And how do you ensure that capital funding is distributed fairly across Wales, particularly between urban and rural areas? How do you go about that?

It's a key part of the assessment criteria. So, whilst we haven't segregated any of our funding to say it's for specific areas within Wales, we do make sure, as part of our balancing factors, that we are assessing those applications, and also, not just the applications that we've had in, but for future rounds, whether there are areas that we need to target in terms of more communication and more interaction with specific geographies, to make sure they're aware of the funding that's available.

So, absolutely, as part of the assessment, it's really robust. It goes through a number of levels of assessment. The capital team, first, will assess those applications, and they don't come in without having some conversation with those organisations first, so that they really understand the guidance. What we then do is assess that internally. It comes up through the executive leadership team, and, at that point, we will look at those balancing factors—Welsh language provision, geography—to make sure that there is a balance there. And if there are areas where their success rate looks lower than others, we wouldn't necessarily change in this round, but we try to understand why and then look at how we can then help target awareness for those areas.

Absolutely. We were really pleased in the last years, and also in the rounds that we've awarded so far this year, that there's been a relatively even split between mid, north and south Wales in terms of the success rates, as we would call them, in terms of the number of applications approved and delivered on. So, that is something that we're really happy about.

Don't forget west Wales. [Laughter.]

Sorry.

Yes, there's stuff I had further down the line, but I think it fits a bit better following on from what Paul said. There are two questions I had. Looking at the multi-year funded organisations map that was provided, I recognise where the funding's happening, but there is a big gap, I feel, in the Valleys area. If I look at Blaenau Gwent, for example, I think there might be one there in Blaenau Gwent on the map—I think. Merthyr Tydfil, not really much going there. And then you've got the poor middle of Wales, which is a bit of a ghost land when it comes to these things. Of course, it was nice to see the funding that goes to the schools, and that kind of covered a lot of areas that I represent, and others represent. But if we don't have those organisations, when those children and young people have that peak interest on an educational level in the arts, there's nowhere then in their own home, their own constituency or their own valley where they can stay to develop themselves. So, it was just something I wanted to know: what is your vision for that? Because these are more deprived areas as well.

And then, the second question I had was with the multi-year funding. I think I'm right that you're supposed to be reviewing the organisations this year for the multi-year funding, but I don't think that's happened, has it? I was just wondering if you could elaborate on why that hasn't happened as well this year.

Let's take the first question first, if that's okay. It's been fascinating. When I came in three and a half years ago to be chair, I was really aware—. Dafydd had just been in post for a few months before I arrived. We looked at these cold spots, and it was very noticeable. There was a real cold spot with Blaenau Gwent; there was a cold spot in Anglesey. We've done quite a lot of work on that—and Dafydd can talk more about how we've developed that with the local authorities in those areas—because we were noticing, long before we arrived, that there had been a trend for many years of not receiving applications from those areas. So, there's something then about how we can work with local authorities. There aren't huge Theatr Clwyd or Wales Millennium Centre-style buildings across the whole of Wales, so you're not going to get that kind of level of activity. But what are the ways that we can work with development officers and we can work with local authorities? Dafydd can talk more about that, and perhaps we'll come on to your second question then.

Dafydd.

The multi-year funding was the second.

When we set out the investment review and awarded the 81 organisations multi-year funding, we had communicated that, in the future, we would be opening up to new organisations. The process that we've undertaken is to review those current 80 organisations that are multi-year funded. We have undertaken that process, and there are now three outcomes for those organisations: either they're in a development year, they're in enhanced monitoring, or they've been offered a new three-year contract that will start in April 2027. But what we haven't had is the funding to open up to new organisations at the moment. That's one of the items that we put in when the Minister asked us for what would our ask be for additionality in funding. Some of that was around how we can support ourselves to open up for new organisations. But with funding as it has been over the last few years, that has not been possible, because there hasn't been an opportunity for significant changes within that set of organisations.

Following on from that, how does the funding of the new national theatre of Wales fit into the model? Is it one of the multi-year funded organisations?

The new national theatre of Wales—I won't go through the whole history of it—was born out of the funding that was given to wind up the old national theatre of Wales. The board asked us to pass some of the funding that had been assigned to them into this new organisation. That new organisation hasn't—. We haven't opened a new multi-year funding round, for the reasons that Lorna has discussed, but they are eligible to come to us for project funding.

When we did the investment review, we undertook a number of strategic reviews, and we did one on theatre, and one of the things in consultation with the sector and from what we had learned from the investment review process was that there was a gap for funding of large-scale productions in Wales. So, we committed to have a large-scale production fund that all organisations could apply for. The current production of Owain & Henry applied for that fund and was granted just under £300,000. It's a project grant, so that is how Owain & Henry is funded. So, we don't have any ongoing funding relationship with the Welsh National Theatre. Does that answer your question?

Yes. So, that's just one-off project grant funding. Okay. Because I was surprised when they were funded, because they hadn't been established for very long, and normally you can't go in for that type of funding until you've been established for more than two years.

They met the criteria to come in for it and they were awarded it, as was theatr genedlaethol and—

We can get the information. I can't remember the third one, but there were three.

They were definitely within the guidelines. I don't know whether two years is relevant to that fund.

Right, okay. That was something that I was aware of before coming here. That was my personal thought on it. Steven, you wanted to ask a question about funding.

Obviously, there have been financial difficulties, there's been restructuring. Dafydd, I know you get paid very well, which gets signed off. What I don't quite understand is how we judge what the key performance indicators are, how we judge if you're doing a good job, if the money's being spent well, or whether it's not going so well and we need to have a look at this. And that's what I'm not really understanding, so if you could kind of explain that, that would be great.

The KPIs of the organisation or the KPIs of me personally?

Probably a bit of both, actually. The board, yourselves, how that all operates so that, you know—. 

As chair, I am charged with the appraisal of the chief executive. I was not part of the appointment of the chief executive; I came in after. I go through a rigorous appraisal process. As part of that, it doesn't just rely upon my opinion; I canvas opinion and feedback from the sector and from the chairs of all of our sub-committees. We have a number of sub-committees—I think we've given you our organogram chart, so I won't rehearse that. I get their feedback. And obviously, there are a number of statutory responsibilities around the role of accounting officer and those kinds of things. Also, I meet with relevant civil servants to get feedback, and there are quarterly business meetings that the executive have with the civil service. All that information is taken into account when making appraisals and assessments of the chief executive, and those are shared with the relevant civil servants. I don't know if that answers your question around KPIs for the chief executive.

We also have biannuals with the Minister as part of the governance structure, and quarterly monitoring meetings with officers.

I think that answers what the process was on that. I'm not sure if it really answers my—. How do we then judge your biannuals and meetings? What's the, I suppose, grid we then judge on and go, 'Okay, we should be reaching this', whether it's people interacting with the various projects or whatever it might be.

The formal structure for that is, I guess, our remit letter from the Government, and also our framework agreement. I'm going to pass to Lorna to talk a bit more in detail about the framework agreement and the remit letter.

We have a remit letter that takes us across the term of Government, which sets out the requirements on us, and we then get annual funding letters, which are in more detail. That is something that we have to make sure is reflected in our planning, in the work that we're doing, in relation to the money that we receive from the Government.

The other key document is our annual plan. That is something that's a very in-depth document, and it talks through all of the key activities that we're going to deliver, not just for Welsh Government funding, but also for the lottery funding we have. That is then shared with the Welsh Government and gets approval, and we then report on that on a quarterly basis. That's probably the key mechanism in terms of key performance indicators.

Our framework agreement is that fundamental document that sets out the relationship between the two parties and how we work together. At the moment, our framework agreement is from 2012, and we're in the process of looking at getting a new drafted framework agreement with our colleagues in the Welsh Government. When that's in place, that will set out the new way forward.

The annual plan that's referred to is a very detailed document. It has a green, amber, red kind of assessment. Council meets about eight times a year for a full day, where we go through the scrutiny of the executive, in addition to committee meetings. We also now have additional capital meetings outside of those meetings. We scrutinise, as council, that document and those KPIs. So, we can say, 'Well, you said, as part of your annual plan, you'd deliver a strategic intervention in Torfaen. Have you delivered it? When did you deliver it? What is the outcome?' That's part of that scrutiny of council, and obviously the minutes of council. I don't know if that helps answer your question, but I guess the key working document is that annual plan, in the context of the framework and the remit letter.

I was just going to add about the annual plan. I think what's key for me is to make sure that, when I report to council, we are delivering on the annual plan—what we said we would be delivering on. I think the other KPI as accounting officer is in terms of the responsible approach that we've taken to spending public money. I would suggest that is another KPI. That is in my personal job description as well. That is a particular responsibility. So, it's the annual plan, I think, that might make clearer what you're referring to in terms of annual KPIs and how we judge those and how they're measured and whatever. 

Is that you setting it to give to the Government for them to approve it, or is it the Government setting it to send to you for you to go, 'Is that reasonable?'?

We set it, but it's in light of the priorities of Government in our remit letter. We have to make sure that there's consistency there, where that is relevant and important. I'd say it's a collaborative process in that perspective. We need to remember that we are an arm's-length organisation. As a charity, we have to make sure that we're adhering to those rules and regulations. But it's definitely something that is in line—. We make sure that we're following and we're dealing with any priorities for the Welsh Government, for future generations and a number of other things. We try and bring it all together in our annual plan.

What happens if—sorry, Lis—there's a disagreement on the KPIs? I've not worked in your specific world, but I have been set KPIs in past roles. But what if you have a disagreement and go, 'Actually, that's not going far enough' or, 'That's not reasonable in the time frame you're giving us'? How does that process work with the feedback back and forth with Government?

I guess that's part of the biannual relationship that we have with the Minister. It's also part of the QMMs. There are some really important things, aren't there, because, if the funding envelope changes, we then have to look at what we are able to deliver as part of those KPIs. And that is never more true than when we are dealing with the fluctuation in lottery income, which is something you will be aware of, I'm sure, from our other colleagues like Sport Wales. So, I would hope that there would always be a conversation, but we are, inevitably, tasked with constantly making decisions because we can't do everything. 

Can I ask people to make—? We're flying through the time, so if people can make their questions and answers a little bit more succinct, please. Right, I want to go to somebody on the screen now. 

Sorry, Chair. I have—[Inaudible.] 

Rebeca. Beca, it's your turn now. 

Just very quickly, Maggie, you mentioned the National Lottery. In the last annual report, you mentioned that you were hoping for some significant growth from the National Lottery. I just wondered what has transpired or is transpiring. 

Thank you very much. I'm going to turn to Lorna to talk about the National Lottery. Briefly, the news has not been great, but I will pass to Lorna.

So, we were hoping for increases, and, as you'll be aware—it's in the public domain—part of the licence that was given to Allwyn was that they made some commitments around increasing money to good causes over the 10 years of the licence. And what we're seeing for this financial year is a reduction in what the income is compared to our budget expectations. So, we assumed a flat line, so we took what we thought was a prudent approach within the accounts in the budget for this year and expected income to be broadly consistent with last year. And that, at the moment, up to the six months that we've got financial information for, has not happened.

So, as part of our mid-year review process, we've had to reduce our expectations on lottery income for the remainder of the year. And the key assumption for that has been to assume the same level of underperformance that we saw in the first six months. So, that has meant an approximate 18 per cent decrease for this financial year that we're currently in, which, in pound terms, is a £3.4 million reduction for this year. That has gone through council and we've made the relevant adjustments to our budgets and utilised lottery reserve to help support that.

It's really important that we don't make knee-jerk reactions, because there is still the opportunity for that to change. Lottery is very difficult to predict in terms of the impact of a roll series, which is when the jackpot for, let's say, Euromillions, doesn't go and it builds up. That can make over £300,000 a week difference to the income that we receive. So, it can change quite quickly. However, we feel that it was a prudent approach to take for the rest of this financial year.

So you get no real notice then? You don't get any certainty at all, from one—

No.

From what period to the next?

We receive weekly reports in terms of the actuals in the sales—in the ticket sales—and we do receive forecasts, but they are forecasts.

And the fluctuation, you're saying, is an 18 per cent difference to what you were expecting. 

From our budget to what actually—

Is that different to what it's been in the past with the previous operator?

Yes. I think—

There hasn't been that sort of fluctuation in the past. 

No, not in the history that I'm aware of. 

In my time as Chair, this is the first time that we have had such a substantial fluctuation. 

So, going back to something more specific, you mentioned the multi-year funding and your existing organisations that are in receipt of it already and opening up to new ones. Someone like, for example, NoFit State Circus, who you gave some bridging funding to, are they one of these organisations that are going to get funding from next March, or are they facing a cliff edge?

So, they're a grant-in-aid funded organisation, but also they have some lottery as part of their mix, and they're co-funded by the Arts Council for England as well. I think one of the important questions that raises is that, last year, we were able to have a reserve fund for organisations that were really suffering under the ongoing cuts and the cost-of-living pressure. So, when organisations hit a really difficult moment, we were able to have a fund—a resilience fund—that we could help them with over a kind of key moment, and we did that in the case of NoFit State Circus last year.

In our last council meeting, 10 days ago, when we had to find around £3 million in in-year cuts, we had, in the original budget, had a resilience fund for this year, but we were no longer able to hold on to that. So, there are real impacts for organisations, but, at the moment, the predominance of the funding that goes to multi-year funded organisations is grant in aid. 

Okay. 

The only thing I would add, if I may, Chair, is that the situation with the lottery, and the delivery of lottery at the moment, does create serious considerations for us in terms of what projects—strategic projects—we can sustain for the next year, because it will set the base for our next year's funding. And we'll also have to have a view on where we set our assumptions in terms of lottery. 

This year has been strange, in one sense, but with the lottery environment, there's far more competition out there now in terms of lottery sales, and different lotteries that don't contribute to the good causes, as ours does. So, the one thing that we are now working on this side of Christmas, and post-Christmas, is: 'Okay, what does this mean for our funding next year?' We will know, of course, what funding we can expect from Welsh Government this side of Christmas, and that will play into our plans obviously. But that's the one big concern we have at the moment, in terms of, because the lottery is delivering so disappointingly against the forecasts, we really have to consider what projects we can actually keep going and sustain. And some of them need decisions sooner rather than later. You have to decide in one financial year about some things that are happening in the next financial year. So, that's a piece of work that we're looking at at this point in time. 

Diolch. 

So, we know that we've seen a decrease in the arts workforce. When you were last in front of the committee, Dafydd, I think you mentioned that there was a piece of work that might be happening on workforce development to look at the workforce in the arts sector. Has that piece of work been done? And if it has, what conclusions has it come to?

I think I was referencing there a piece of work that Welsh Government were commissioning directly on the skills, and that one was on the arts sector alone. That's the old Government. I've not received an update on that in the last few months.

I think what we're seeing, in terms of the health of the sector—there's at least 20 per cent less working in our sector now than was before the pandemic. What's quite interesting is that, permanent roles, there's been a cut there of about 12 per cent, but the major hit has gone on casual and freelance staff—something in the region of 30 per cent to 31 per cent. The casual element is worrying, particularly worrying in the sense that that's the traditional route and entry point into the sector—that's where young people would gain their first step on the ladder. So, we are concerned on that.

Then it's got a disproportionate effect on women, in the sense that 56 per cent, or somewhere in that region, of the workforce are female. So, we're seeing that reduction. That actually comes back to one of the original questions, or one of the earlier questions, in terms of why participation was low. We're seeing a reduction in the workforce as venues actually contract and actually do slightly less, and therefore get savings by not employing as many people. It's quite a vicious circle in that sense.

Are you seeing artificial intelligence also having—? It might be more in the creative sector, but I was wondering, for you as well—. Especially when it comes to the literature world, for example, I've heard concerns that people are having with AI and that. I was wondering: when it comes to the workforce, if you're seeing some of that trend starting, or concerns from the arts workforce?

I'm aware of it more. I gave a keynote the other day at the Iris Festival, and I was really aware of a lot of the questions about AI in film, particularly background artists. So, there's a wonderful thing that you can create a castle now and it doesn't cost you as much money, but that means you're not employing craftspeople, you're not employing actors as supporting artists. It was really fascinating, because I think there was a real split in the audience of some, particularly younger, people being, 'No, I don't want AI to—. I don't want AI to tell my story—I want to tell my story.' And then there were also some other professionals going, 'Oh, but it's fantastic; I can now make a film on my phone that looks incredible with very little budget.' So, I think the jury's still out amongst the creative sector.

I know in the literature sector, and particularly in the music sector, there's a lot of concern around this. And, in other sectors, people are embracing it. So, I think it's still quite a mixed picture.

What we are finding, though, is that people are using AI in terms of application, definitely.

Yes.

And there have been conversations in the past about—. I was in a conference, not so long ago, and there was a different view across different countries in Europe, actually. Many saying, though, that it made it more equitable, that those larger organisations that can employ staff to write applications used to have an advantage, but AI actually makes a more level playing field; it also helps some neurodivergent artists or smaller organisations that are interested. The one thing that we do say, though, is that you can identify an AI application and, unless the voice of the artist is in there, or unless the actual genuine heart of the project is there, it can not be an advantage. But it is quite a fascinating subject, where, on the one hand, AI can make it more equitable, but, on the other hand, there are concerns about whether AI actually reflects the true nature of the project that comes in for funding.

Diolch.

On workforce development, pa waith, what work is being done on workforce development? Is there anything being done at the moment?

I don't know if you want to add something there, Lorna. 

I would just say that we're also a part of a cross-sector working group or committee that's looking at fair pay, fair work. That's a really important part of the overall look at workforce development as well. That's a really important factor that can't be forgotten.

And what about the universal basic income model? Is that something that's still under consideration?

I think we look with delight and probably some envy to our colleagues in Ireland on both the delivery, given their financial support for the arts, and also the outcome of the research on that delivery that shows that actually it's had a net economic gain. So, I think it's something we are looking at and considering. It hasn't been at the forefront of the first few years when we came in and had to do an investment review, then look at how we accommodated a 10.5 per cent cut and where we are now with the cost-of-living pressures. But I think there is much to learn from our colleagues in Ireland about how that has been developed and delivered.

Yes, a couple of things. I know that a lot of the organisations you speak to are on their knees, whether they're traditional music, dance—things are difficult—but, at the same time, theatre and opera, obviously, were the big losers in the last investment review. Obviously, speaking to people like the Welsh National Opera, who had their chorus reduced, the orchestra reduced, struggling with cuts from you and the English arts council, I just wonder if there's any prospect of improved funding for someone like the WNO, bearing in mind their national significance.

I think the first thing I'd like to say about WNO is to pay tribute to the two relatively recent general directors and the launch of their new season in, I think, September. There feels like there's a real energy and appetite to create a new kind of European opera company of the highest quality, building on that 80 years of WNO excellence. I would love to have more funding that we could share amongst all our multi-year-funded organisations, but, as I have said on several occasions, when I looked at this role, I didn't see 'Rumpelstiltskin' in the job description and I have yet to learn how to take straw and spin it into gold, and I really wish I could. Because what I see—and I have the huge privilege of attending many things right across Wales—is no lack of creativity, ambition, skill, passion and work of the highest quality going on. And everyone, whether they are WNO—who, on paper, get a huge amount of money, but also carry a huge amount of wages and fixed costs—or right through to a smaller organisation like Grand Ambition in Swansea, who are just starting out, as they've been going for five years—. How do we support this sector that is so crucial to the life of Wales? For me, the challenge is how do we stabilise and support the multi-year funded organisations we have and how do we do that alongside the way of responding to initiatives that are cold spots or new talents and new things that we don't even know, as well as doing our work in schools and our arts and health work. And I think we're really hitting a tension moment, as evidenced by the response to the lottery question. So, I really hope we will be in a position to further support those organisations. We are doing some work at an arts council level on developing some new models for philanthropy, which, hopefully, we can bring forward to a future committee, but I'm not naive and I want us to celebrate our crown jewels and celebrate our community work and do everything in between, really. I don't know if that answers your question. But I think it's a real tension for us.

I'd just like to add, if I may, that that was a key part of the information that we provided through to the Minister as to what the additional ask would be from us. So, for example, the multi-year-funded organisations, when that investment review happened in 2023, the total budget ask for those organisations was just over £40 million and we were able to deliver £28 million. So, there was a significant change there in terms of what we were able to deliver. And if that had kept pace with inflation, then there would be a requirement of around about an additional £14.5 million to get back to that original ask. So, again, that's some of the information that we've provided, because we recognise the challenge.

You have a very, very difficult task, don't you?

And I would add to that, as I think it's a really important point, that this idea of sort of real-term cuts isn't a new thing, unfortunately, as Dafydd's just indicated, and I think that that means that the sector is quite resilient in the fact that it's used to navigating this underfunding. And what we've seen is that there's a sector there that's really reliant on the passion and the dedication of its workforce and of the freelancers that support it, but that isn't a sustainable model. Wales absolutely punches above its weight in terms of what it delivers from a cultural perspective, but it just can't continue to do so, in our opinion, without investment in that core infrastructure and funding.

Yes. I can't disagree with you on any of that. I do feel that this is the problem that we're in, isn't it, the world we're in today? Everybody is operating in a very difficult environment now and we have to make the best of what we have and do the best we can, because money is short.

So, Mike, would you like to make a contribution, please?

I think I'm down for arts and health.

You are.

I want to talk about dementia, and I know how important Musical Memories are for people with dementia. There are people who haven't spoken for months or years who, when they go to a Musical Memories event, or when Musical Memories come to the home they're in, they start singing along to songs they know. I was a bit disappointed that Abba were in the Musical Memories, but perhaps I need to realise I am getting older myself. But I think they do a tremendous job. What support are you, either directly or via health boards, doing, to bring in Musical Memories, which have a huge effect on people who have got dementia? There's a major beneficial effect, and people who look down, out and disinterested come out happy, smiling. It really is important. So, I'm just asking what support you give.

Well, support for arts and health, I mean, this is a field—and I inherited this; I'm not taking the praise for this—where Wales is leading not only on a European level, but on a world level. There was an article in The Lancet—was it two years ago—that compared what is happening in Wales in terms of arts and health as one of the most significant developments on a world level. We invest £1.6 million in arts and health. It's all lottery funding. We do not get any financial support from the Government to do this work, other than some of the grant in aid would support some roles, but all the project work comes from our lottery. We actually published—and I'm sure, as members of the committee, you will have copies; if not, we can get you the copies—a report about six months ago on the economic benefits of arts and health that also included the well-being benefits. This is a field where we want to see marked improvements in terms of funding from the Government, with the next budget. The savings that the use of the arts and arts practitioners can make for the national health is incredible.

We have a dance and health and balance group, for example, across Wales—the falls prevention agenda. Now, if you're over 65, you have 35 per cent more of a chance of falling. If you're over 80, it's 50 per cent, but dance for health programmes reduces a risk of falling by up to 60 per cent, because it improves your core strength, it improves your balance, et cetera, et cetera. Now, if we were to reach 5 per cent of over-65s, we'd save £5 million annually to the NHS. There is an exercise referral scheme, but we would argue we need one also for the arts.

I think the other place where the arts prove significant is in mental health. Forty per cent of the visits to GPs across Wales are for mental health-related issues. Now, if 5 per cent of those were avoided by early referral to arts and arts practitioners, we would save £17 million a year to the NHS. So, we have to change the way we think about health. Currently, we think more about treatment, not enough about keeping people healthier, so that they don't actually block up the systems in terms of hospitalisation.

Incidentally, back to the arts and health, and the dance one, one fall costs the NHS in the region of £40,000 to £45,000 per visit. But, actually, running a dance class for a year would cost in the region of £20,000 to £30,000. So, it's an actual no-brainer in terms of the fiscal argument.

The other thing is that we do have a partnership with the Baring Foundation as well, and we've got a project called Arts and Minds. Again, that's to do with the mental health issues in Wales. So, another stat—and I'll stop in a second on the stats—but of the young people on NHS mental health pathways, if we were to reach just 5 per cent of them, it would, again, generate £9.5 million of savings to the NHS. So, I think we've got to start thinking about health in a different way and consider how the arts sector can contribute significantly, not just in terms of well-being, but also in terms of the economic impact of it, in terms of savings for other services.

I would say that we absolutely recognise the benefits that music and arts can have, specifically around dementia. That, again, was one of the key asks that we put in the information to the Minister, around an additional request of £2.9 million to fund four strategic programmes within arts and health, one of those being arts and dementia.

Well, I couldn't agree more with you on that, to be honest with you. I've seen it for myself, in my work and in my family. I have to say as well, there's a lot of—. All of these elements have to happen and work together. In terms of community arts, it's so important to have that facility where people can get together, and isolation doesn't become such a problem, and health improves, well-being improves. But also, you also need to really, really think about the well-being and health of the people who are the practitioners, who actually provide those opportunities, and the artists that are in our communities. That's something that—. Sometimes, I think there's too much emphasis—. Even though my own experience was running a venue, I think, sometimes, there's too much emphasis on venue funding rather than artist funding, and finding a way of both working together can really enhance things.

Also, I think that high-level arts—. I went to a performance recently in memory of Aberfan, and it was incredible. Sitting there watching children from my community performing with professional musicians and singers was an absolute delight. To give those children that opportunity, to give people those opportunities—. So, there are health benefits from the higher levels. We have to have those higher levels of arts, for people to aspire to and to give people that, not just inspiration, but uchelgais—ambition.

Right then, we need to—. We are coming very close to the end of the session. Is there anything that anybody now wants to ask before we close? I was looking over there as I was saying it—

She's looking at me. [Laughter.]

—because I knew that Niamh would say that. Niamh.

It's very, very quick. I just wanted to touch on the one thing, which was the review that was done on traditional music. I was wondering what your response was to that. I think that quote by Angharad Wynne was really quite telling of the situation of the sector. Are you doing work outside of the funding as well, because there was a lot of recommendations outside of just needing more money? Diolch.

Well, there are a couple of things—.

Have I left anything out there?