Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru

Diolch, Cadeirydd. Jack Sargeant, Minister for Culture, Skills and Social Partnership.

Jason Thomas, director of tourism, marketing, events and creative industries.

Paul Kindred, deputy director for culture.

I'll go straight to questions, if that's all right. Looking at the overall picture—. We're looking at funding for culture and sport. We as a committee have drawn attention to the fact that we are amongst the lowest in Europe when it comes to spending on those areas. There is a 2 per cent revenue uplift; do you think that that is sufficient to get us out of the situation that we are in?

Diolch, Cadeirydd. If I may, it's the first time we've got round the table since last night's fantastic result for Cymru's football team. So, if I could just perhaps put on record the Welsh Government's support, and I'm sure the Senedd's support, for the fantastic result last night. It's great to see Harry Wilson, as a north Walian, captaining the side and scoring a hat trick.

But to your point, Chair, we recognise the importance of the cultural and sporting sector. We recognise the challenges and opportunities that still remain in the sector. But this is a restated budget, as it was from this year's budget going into next year. The finance Secretary set out the reasons for that approach when he laid the budget. I think it's important, Chair, to just reflect on where we were. We heard quite clearly from the sector to this committee a few weeks ago, where the Amgueddfa Cymru leadership team said that we are in a very different place from where we were last year when we sat round this committee table. So, I think it's important to reflect on that as a position from a starting point, and then the reasons for the restated budget, as the finance Secretary has set out. I think that Amgueddfa Cymru used the opportunity to describe that position as 'fabulous' when they were last in this committee.

Diolch. I would certainly echo your sentiments about the result last night on behalf of us as a committee as well. Llongyfarchiadau, Cymru. 

We will be coming back to some of the areas that you've already mentioned in a little bit of further detail, but if I could ask you specifically about—. You have drawn attention in your paper to where you believe that preventative spend is being undertaken as a principle. Again, that is something that we as a committee have recommended. I'd be grateful if you could set out any examples of where you think that a decision has been taken to prioritise funding on one area at the expense of something else that you think will reduce public spending in the future, please.

Diolch, Chair. I will perhaps give two examples that spring to mind, but there are probably more than that. The first one where we've invested in this department is investment in mental health training places for every single football club in Wales. That's a direct investment from this portfolio. It was a decision that I wanted to make because of the reasons that we've seen far too publicly of the issue of suicide and mental health for young men in particular, and I make no apology for making that decision. I have personal experience with that. My best friend of 20 years, our former colleague and, indeed, my dad have all had that experience. So, I take pride in putting money into that initiative. I think it's a good initiative, and I think other associations and Governments could follow our lead in that. But that's a direct investment that we've made and I think it will help in the future for that prevention that you talk about.

You ask about being at the expense of something else. I think if you see the investments the Government made in relation to the Women's golf legacy fund, the £1 million fund that was introduced on the back of hosting the Women's Open in the summer—. It was a really successful tournament. The eyes of the world were on Wales once again as a sporting nation. I had the opportunity to be with the Royal Porthcawl just last week to discuss the success of that tournament. But we introduced the women's golf legacy fund, and that was a £1 million fund from the economy Secretary's portfolio. So, it came from the events space, and it wasn't traditionally spent on bringing events to Wales, as events does. We created a legacy fund using the £1 million from that pot, and what that's done is it's been invested in projects across Wales, in golf clubs across Wales. I think there are up to 49 clubs, so that's a good spread across Wales. And what that has seen is increased participation in the women's and girls' game of golf, as well as just helping generally. I think that's a good way of increasing activity in sport, as this committee no doubt recognises as well, and it's one of those ways towards preventative health. So, I think that gives you a direct example of where you've asked that question, and there will be more, of course.

Thank you for providing particularly the first example that you cited there. We appreciate as a committee how important that is to everyone in the Senedd and to you personally. Diolch. Before I move on, I think that Alun has a supplementary.

The committee's going to ask you a lot of detailed questions about various aspect of the portfolio and funding and budgets, but I want to start at the beginning, if that makes sense. You've said, and we all understand, that this is a standstill budget. Therefore, there's been a general, supposedly, inflation-linked increase across the board. I recognise that that's a contested decision, but I recognise what the decision is. But I want to take you back before that, because we've had a tussle with yourself and your predecessors about funding for the arts and sport in Wales. The Government's position, I presume, is that it does accept that Wales funds the arts, culture and sport less well than any other UK nation and less well than any other comparable nation across Europe. Is that the case?

I think, Chair, if you point to the committee table that the committee has used in a number of different ways, that table itself has caveats within that comparison. Is it a like-for-like comparison with where we spend our money? Is it including revenue? Is it including capital? Does it include sport? Does it include creative? Does it include all of those things for each nation? The Government is clear we want to fund, and continue to fund, our arts and sport sectors. The context of where we were last year compared to where we are this year, Chair, carries on. And this is a restated budget. This isn't the end of the process, Alun, is it?

My question wasn't about this year and last year; it's about the Government's approach and the Government's policy. My question was actually quite a straightforward question: does the Government accept the relative position of Wales? It's either 'yes' or 'no'.

We accept the position we're in, where we are funding our arts and sport sector. They had an increase in the budget last year, and they've had that increase restated this year. But again, this is not the end of the process, and this committee knows that better than others.

I accept all of that. But the fact that you don't say 'yes' or 'no' indicates to me that you do recognise the relative situation of Wales relative to other parts of the United Kingdom and relative to other parts of Europe. So, there's a recognition there that Wales is poorly funded for its arts, poorly funded for culture, poorly funded for sport. If that's the case, is there any decision being taken within Government that it wishes to address that relative position?

Let's take the capital position of sport and arts, where we've seen significant increases over the last decade. The Member has seen that in his own constituency—over £700,000 brought into Tredegar to increase activity in sport. We were there just last week in the latest event. So, I think it's fair to say that we have supported the sector. There are challenges, as we know, as we all understand, and the opportunities that we understand. But I just want to take you back to what was said in this committee a few weeks ago by the leadership of Amgueddfa Cymru, where they described their position as 'fabulous'.

Heledd wants to come in just on this point, and then we'll come back to Alun.

I think that is a selective use of the word 'fabulous'. I've got the transcript in front of me here. It does say it's fabulous that they've received the £9 million in addition to the £5 million this year, and that's why they've been able to fast-track those works.

'What we would really love to see is that our grant in aid capital could be increased, so that we could plan for that additional amount and build it into our way of working, rather than seeing it as individual projects.'

So, there was a 'but' there. Of course, they're acknowledging—as we've done as a committee—and welcoming that investment, but there were also a number of warnings from Amgueddfa Cymru in their evidence to us about how they want to see that continued. Yes, there's an acknowledgment of that, but it wasn't saying, 'Everything's fabulous now. Crisis over. We're great.' That wasn't the evidence we heard. Surely you acknowledge that, Minister.

Chair, I'm very pleased that the committee has acknowledged that they used the word 'fabulous' to describe the increase in capital funding. I'm sorry, but that was on the record.

So, would you say that it's fabulous now—that the sector is in a fabulous position? Is that the view of the Welsh Government?

Chair, I'm using the words that were said to this committee—

Out of context.

No, not out of context. We're in a different place to where we were a year ago, and they described that as 'fabulous'. I already said we agree that there are still challenges that remain and we want to work with the sector. I've never said that isn't the case, I'm just repeating what the committee has heard. I've listened to the evidence from Amgueddfa Cymru, where they said they would welcome increased capital funding in grant in aid, and we've done that as well in this draft budget.

Diolch. I'm going to come back to Alun.

I'm trying to establish the starting point for our discussions this morning. We understand the budget context and we understand the decisions that have been taken by the finance Minister and endorsed by the rest of the Government; we understand all of that. The committee understands the historical basis for this and we recognise the political reality of where the Welsh Government is at the moment. The committee understands all of that. My question to you is about the debate and the discussion that's taken place within Government, where the committee has a right to receive a more comprehensive understanding.

Because the numbers are so stark, it's possible to argue this and argue that and try to make points about various rather minor second-order issues, but the overall context is clear for everybody to see, and I guess that's as clear for your officials as it is for us, and I presume your officials appreciate that. So, there has been no decision within Government to address the relative paucity in funding for Welsh culture, Welsh arts and Welsh sport, and there's been no decision taken to address that fundamental issue; am I correct?

Chair, we don't just invest in—

The answer is 'yes' or 'no', to be fair.

The answer is that we don't just invest in culture and sport through the culture and sport portfolio. I think that's clear for everyone to see. We've seen other investments in the budget this year and in previous years from other portfolios, and the restated budget allows that to happen again in other portfolios—delivering against the priorities for culture, investing in sport and facilities in education settings and so on, investments from the energy department into areas like Amgueddfa Cymru. So, it's not a clear picture to say that all culture spend happens in the culture budget; it doesn't. It goes across portfolios.

Again, there's an opportunity for a change in position between the draft and final budget, and this committee saw that last year in response to the committee. The Senedd itself, over the 25 years, has always acted in a progressive way when it comes to budgets, and I welcome those discussions taking place between all people around this table and in their respective political parties. I think it's an important step and I do welcome the approach taken already by members of this committee and others outside.

The committee recognises that there are some elements of spending outside of the portfolio. Clearly, that's true, but it's true in England, it's true in Scotland, it's true in Ireland, and it's true everywhere else as well. So, I'm not sure that that really answers the question. The fundamental question is that this portfolio has both a relative and an absolute paucity of spend within the Welsh Government's priorities, and that is clear from the numbers we have, which you haven't seriously challenged either now or at any time in the past. So, we're in this situation whereby the Welsh sector here is poorly funded compared with their colleagues across the border, poorly funded compared with their colleagues across Europe, and suffering the consequences of things like Brexit as well. So, there are lots of different issues facing your portfolio at the moment, and there's been no decision taken by Welsh Government to address those fundamentals. So, if that is the case—if that is the case—then what we can look forward to post the election is that the sector will continue to be relatively poorly funded, and badly funded, in fact, if you look at the numbers here. I'm wondering, therefore—. We can congratulate our football team as much as we like, but unless we're actually investing in the future, then what does that future look like? I'm concerned that in the Welsh Government there doesn't seem to be any sense of urgency about this crisis facing this defining part of our cultural life.

So, Chair, the Member does recognise, I'm sure, the significant increases in capital funding—

Yes, but we're talking about how do you run an organisation, how do you—. You've got to pay the electricity bill after that.

But you talk about creating the next generation of football players or artists—access to that is important, and capital investment into there is crucial, like we saw in Tredegar last week, like we saw in north Wales when Gareth and I had the opportunity to visit one of the pitches in north Wales. Significant increases over a number of years in capital expenditure have been there. I take his point on revenue, but we have been in a better place, as has been said by others, from where we were last year to this year. Now, this is a journey, and we want to go beyond that in the future. This is an initial—. It's a draft budget, and there are opportunities for Members around this committee table and beyond to help shape that in the future.

Thank you. Could I ask—? I'm going to bring Heledd in in a moment as well. I'm interested that you describe it as a journey and that you'd want to go further. Is there a figure that you would put on where you would ultimately like us to be? Would it be your vision that you would want Wales to be amongst the top performing in terms of spend in European nations on culture and sport?

What's important to me is that we have our 'Priorities for Culture', set out in May of this year, and that we use that as the platform to deliver against. We've already seen £15 million—close to £15 million—go out the door already. I'm not going to speculate on future budgets when we're going through this budget process, Chair. I don't think I did that last time I was in front of committee, and I'm not going to do that today.

You did not. You recall correctly on that. I'm going to bring Heledd in.

I was just curious. You've obviously said that there's an opportunity for us to influence the final budget. Can I ask what's your ask? Because I've heard Lynne Neagle as Cabinet Secretary for Education say, 'I'm making an ask for this. I'd love to have more funding.' So, what's your ask to the Cabinet Secretary for finance?

Well, I fight for the arts and sport sector every single day. I did that last year, and I think we saw in response to both this committee and both the asks that I made increases in the final budget between the draft and final last year. I think there's a real opportunity for all of us to make the case for the arts sector. I'll be doing that around the Cabinet table.

So, you'd like to see an increase. You think there should be an increase in the final budget in these areas.

I would always welcome more funding to the sector to carry on the opportunities that we can do today. I've never said that that's not to be the case. This puts us in a good position. It's a restated budget, of course. I'd like to see more, because of all of the things that we realise arts and sport can do. There's a real opportunity for people around this table, and beyond, to help shape that, and I think everyone understands that.

Thank you for that. Well, just finally from me before we move on, the Government has become the first nation in the world, I think, to be a Marmot nation and led by those principles. Could you, again, point us to any examples of where that decision has led to specific choices in terms of preventative spending, please?

So, I think the journey of becoming a Marmot nation, and then, indeed, afterwards, continues. Our budget is particularly focused on prevention as well. The sport and arts portfolio, if not all of the spend, goes to preventing ill health in some way, because that's what access to sport and culture does. And I look back to the answer that I gave to your earlier question and some of the direct investments, the particular investment on the golf fund, which is quite a significant investment, across 49 clubs across Wales. Well, that is part of becoming a Marmot nation, isn't it? A journey to which we prevent ill health through access to sport and others, and that came from a different portfolio line, not my own, so there's an example there. But, as we become a Marmot nation, we've signed up to the principles of that, then, obviously, I think there are other opportunities to look at more spend in the preventative space, and I'll look to Cabinet colleagues to see that.

I think this is where—. I've listened to Ministers say, and I probably have myself at different times said, very similar things over the years. I'm old enough to remember Sir Jeremy Beecham's 'Making the Connections'. I remember citizen-centred services and the rest of it. I remember all of these different strategies and strategic approaches from Welsh Government, and I can't really easily remember the difference they've made. And when I look at what the Marmot nation and what the Marmot principles mean—. 'Give every child the best start in life'—well, wasn't the Welsh Government doing that anyway? 'Tackle racism, discrimination and their outcomes'—I seem to remember Welsh Government doing that before I was elected, and I've been here 18 years. 'Ensure a healthy standard of living for all', 'create fair employment'. You know, what does this mean? Does it mean anything? And if it does, what decisions are going to be different as a consequence of this that you wouldn't have taken anyway? To me, none of this stuff is very new or different, but it's the sort of thing that Gareth could easily say. It isn't exactly defining what a Labour Government is doing.

I'll take that as a compliment.

It's a comparison.

Well, we were seeing investments into spend for prevention. I think becoming a Marmot nation can only build on that and, as I say, it's a journey—it's not going to be done overnight. Chair, I'm happy to provide some further detail from the Cabinet Secretary for health, who led on the principle of becoming a Marmot nation, to the committee if the committee finds that helpful.

I'm interested in understanding how adopting all these principles, which I thought we'd adopted long before I was elected, frankly, is going to change Government decisions. How is that going to change what the Government is going to do? It wouldn't have done this had we not taken this decision. What is the difference it's driving? That's what I'm really interested in.

Well, I think becoming a Marmot nation only furthers the case for more spend in preventative health, and we've got to balance the real pressures on the health service that they face now with the spend on preventive health as well. But, as I say, I'm happy to provide more information, particularly from the health Secretary, to the committee on that.

Thank you. Jason, did you want to come in?

Yes, sure.

Just to give one example, the Minister mentioned the AIG Women's Open earlier, and that was about investing in legacy, ahead of the event itself, actually, which was a novel approach for us. Usually, we'll bid for an event, and then look at legacy post event, really. But it was a different approach there. So, I'm not going to go into that, but just briefly to mention that, last week, the Minister was there for the UEFA Euro 28 launch, up in London. A big part of that programme, and a big part of the Welsh Government commitment to the event, is around legacy. So, in previous major events, we would have normally taken the approach of: we bid for the event, we work with event partners, and then we look at a legacy solution post event. But because of the work that we've done on the AIG, and because of this approach, which is, I guess, almost to get in early to put in interventions to get more people playing the sport, the approach that we're going to be looking at for legacy for UEFA Euro 2028 will be very, very different, and we'll be looking to bring in legacy interventions before 2028, which is, I think—. It's a different approach, and one which is reflective of a Marmot nation. So, I know that's just one example, but I just thought that kind of brings to life some of the things that we're doing.

Okay, I'm going to bring Heledd in on this. Actually, just before I come to Heledd, because we're going to stay with Heledd then for a while, could I ask if there's one further bit of information you could send us, please, in terms of that you mentioned where other portfolio areas contribute to spending on arts and sport? If there is a figure that you could point us towards that brings that together, it would be really useful for us, please.

We can do that. 

Diolch, Gweinidog. I'll come to Heledd now. 

I just wanted to pick up on the point—and I’m sorry it’s not specifically on the budget—of looking at legacy post event, that that’s a new approach. I’m quite worried that that’s a new approach, because, as a committee, we’ve scrutinised a lot on this when it came to the World Cup, the Euros, because of our concerns there. I’m glad if that’s now the approach, and embedded, but is that stating then that this wasn’t the case when it came to the World Cup and the Euros, and that this is an acknowledgment of some of the scrutiny work that we’ve done previously, that we can be better at the legacy work?

Well, Chair, I look back to my time away from this place. I always strive for continuous improvement, and if there are areas to improve, then we will obviously seek to do that. I also welcome the scrutiny of this committee and the good work that this committee does. The legacy funds from previous tournaments I think have all been successful. They’ve all been very successful, particularly the golf. We’ve seen the impact of the women’s Euros legacy fund from the summer as well.

We’ve had a number of discussions with UK and Ireland, and with counterparts in the devolved administrations and in Westminster as well, about the approach to Euro 2028, and what having a major tournament means. And I was very pleased that we were able to announce, with UEFA, that the opening match of UEFA Euro 2028 will be in Cardiff. That gives us a great opportunity to promote the game and promote Wales on that global stage again. It’s the second most watched game, typically, after the final.

I think the approach that we’ve discussed as the way, as Jason has described, in perhaps going before the event, in the run-up to the event, is a good approach, and one I’m looking forward to delivering. But I always welcome the scrutiny of the committee. That’s not to say, Chair, that the previous legacy funds have been unsuccessful; I think they have been successful, and I think we’ve seen many benefits because of them.

Thank you. If I—

I think Elin just wanted to come in on something here. 

So, just also I think there's a difference between the World Cup and Euros, where it is about the Welsh team qualifying and going to an event, and what Jason described, which was the hosting of an event and building in the legacy to the planning from there on. And, obviously, with qualifying for major sporting events, sometimes we qualify quite late, so the legacy of that is planned on a shorter timeframe, but that's to do with Wales qualifying.

Diolch. 

Thank you for that point. I think, for clarity, we have always been consistently asking, in terms of preparation, for being able to take advantage of those opportunities rather than waiting for qualification. So, if I may—. I don't want us to get stuck on this point, because this is about budget scrutiny specifically today. If we look at UEFA in particular, is there a budget allocation for that legacy work within this year's budget, this forthcoming budget?

Jason, do you want to just talk about the detail of UEFA?

Yes, thank you. I can't go into the specifics of it, but there's an allocation for legacy within the overall Welsh Government contribution to the whole event, similar to all the other Government partners that are in there. What we've secured is a budget envelope to deliver that up to and including 2028. The timing of the spend on that legacy is discretionary, and as we discussed just previously—and I would certainly recognise the previous work of the committee in talking about the legacy of major events—we are looking at that approach now, which is to look at the legacy investment early, and if there are opportunities to do it in this budget period, then I think that that will be really good because it has been really successful with the AIG Women's Open, as the Minister said. 

Thank you. If I may go on, then, and if we look at culture and arts in particular, you've talked quite a lot in terms of non-culture budgets. Do you monitor that? Do you have figures in terms of how much goes from the culture budget towards health, education and vice versa? How do you monitor across the Government, then, to ensure that the expenditure is there?

There is a series of investments from other portfolios into arts, sport and culture. I'm happy to send further detail of the figure, Chair—

Okay.

That would be useful.

—to break that down. But, to just give some examples of where that, I think, has happened fairly recently—

No, I understand the example. I was wondering if the figures exist. So, if we're able to get them, that would be great. Thank you. The future generations commissioner, with us, was saying that there's little evidence that cultural well-being is being supported holistically across policy areas, so it's for our scrutiny work to really understand how that's measured. 

I think those examples are really important, though, Chair, because they show directly where it is happening. So, you saw that in Venue Cymru—the £2 million that the Cabinet Secretary for housing invested on the back of the £1 million that we invested through the 'Priorities for Culture' and Arts Council of Wales support. So, I do think that they're important and they are examples of that. So, perhaps, as well as the figure, I'll provide some more examples for you.

Can I come in on this? This is really important, because you referred to this, Minister, on a number of occasions in your evidence. So, I think it's important that we understand what the committee is asking for, and that is that, as a Minister, you will provide to this committee, in writing, the spend from other portfolios and other Ministers on the arts, culture and sport, broken down, and then I presume that we will be able to look back and forward in terms of looking at a total spend from the Welsh Government on these sector portfolios, so that we're agreed on what the committee's looking for and what you will provide. 

So, I will provide a figure, Chair, of investment from other portfolios where they have invested in programmes or activities that have contributed to the culture and arts sector. 

And that will be both revenue and capital, yes?

I'll provide a figure, yes.

For revenue and capital.

And the other way, in terms of this budget—how your budget contributes to other policy areas. So, for instance, we know that the arts and health budget of the arts council is for health initiatives within health boards. So, I think that would be really helpful for our scrutiny work. Thank you. 

Picking up on a point from our last scrutiny with you, Minister, when we asked about the capital maintenance backlog figure, you followed up with a letter to us on 5 November, because we'd asked for the figures across all of the bodies linked to the priorities for culture. It seemed to be confirmation that that figure does not exist. So, can I ask how you are working to understand what the needs of the sector are, because I would have thought that, in setting the priorities for culture, knowing the state of those bodies would be quite crucial in order to be able to develop that plan of investment.

I agree entirely with that. We have regular discussions with our arm's-length bodies in particular. I have my biannual scrutiny sessions with them, but we have more discussions outside of that, and officials have very regular discussions with them. For cases like the amgueddfa, we asked them to prepare their operational plans, as all arm's-length bodies do, but also their plan—I can't quite remember the exact name of the plan—their vision of programmes across a period, and we work with them to support them with that. So, we do monitor and work with them to see their state and their need for investment, and that's how we've made investments in the past, and that's how we'll go on to make investments. I think what's important for the priorities for culture is that, just six months ago, we launched the priorities for culture with that package of funding across, and the majority of that money has gone out the door, which I think is important to the sector, and I think that's something we should recognise as well.

I understand. In terms of Amgueddfa Cymru, I think we're clear on their position as well, but I was asking for all of those bodies within—so, that would include local museums. We heard from the Arts Council of Wales that they don't know what the figure is for the organisations that they support—the figure could be anywhere between £50 million and £100 million in terms of potential emergency work. So, I am just trying to understand, across all of those organisations that receive funding through the priorities for culture fund that you have allocated, do you understand what the need is—what proportion or what the total multimillion-pound figure is of need?

I don't have that figure, Chair, but I think it's for us to work with the arts council and the sector directly to do that. That's how we delivered the money to the sector and that's how we've got it out of the door as quickly as we have. We hope to do something similar in the future as well. The £8 million fund that was created and out of the door was recognising the needs from the sector that bidded into that proposal, and we hope to do something again recognising that. I think it's a significant step forward, because that type of fund hasn't been available on that scale before and that's what we're hoping to support in the future, not just in the arts council way, but local museums as well have had capital investments in all areas. Pontypridd Museum is one of them.

Thank you. Do you think it'd be helpful for you to have that figure, for that piece of work to happen, for us to understand? Obviously, when you're making the case to Cabinet colleagues in terms of how much is needed and for us to truly understand the state of culture and the arts in Wales, do you think there'd be benefit in a piece of work specifically looking at that total amount of need so that we know that every pound you spend is being spent on the most pressing issues?

I think that's the importance of allowing the arts council to make those decisions. We gave the £8 million fund to the arts council, and they are the experts in this field. They have the relationship with the sector and I think it's important for them to do that piece of work, at the arm's-length principle, with the experts there. And we will work with the arts council, as we work with all arm's-length bodies, to look at that.

I'm asking for all the organisations encompassed by the priorities for culture—so, not just amgueddfa Cymru, the national library and arts council, but local libraries, local museums et cetera. Do you think there is a role for Government to bring together that figure and work with all of those organisations to really understand what level of investment from the Government is needed, because, otherwise, how do we know that it's going to the right places within all of those?

So, we do work with the sector, particularly local museums. I'll bring Paul in, who has led on some of that work with the capital fund, particularly for local museums, archives and libraries.

Thank you. I think we've spoken to the committee previously about the piece of work that we did about 18 months ago—something like that, or two years ago—on the local museum capital requirements. That fed into how we prioritised some of the schemes, like the capital transformation grants, which have been running successfully for a number of years.

There is a piece of work that is being done right now under the priorities for culture to look at the wider capital requirements across all of the sectors that are covered by the priorities for culture. So, that is a piece of work that we're doing right now to build on the research that we've already done.

What's the timescale for that work to be completed?

There is a tender that is going live for that piece of work right now on Sell2Wales and we're doing it over the next few months.

Great. So, what's your deadline? When do you hope those figures will be available so that we have them as a committee or for future Senedd committees?

I can't give you the exact—. I can come back to you later with the exact timeline, if you like, but, within the next six months or so, we should have a much better understanding than we do now.

Perfect. Thank you.

So, I think, Chair, once the tender process is completed, we can then provide that written information to you.

That would be very useful. Thank you.

Thank you. And just a final question for me on this section: why has the revenue spending on culture and the arts increased by less than the average revenue increase in this budget?

So, Chair, I think I set out, in the early answers, that this is a restated budget. We've provided the arts council in particular in particular with a targeted increase in pay awards, and then they've had the increase slightly to the revenue fund there, but this is, again, the start of a process—it's a draft budget, and then the final budget. I think I'm just repeating my answer to an earlier question, Chair.

I'm trying to work this out as well, Minister. It's a restated budget, yes, which is what we've agreed, and as you've outlined. But the baseline for the arts council is £33.47 million, and that's been increased to £33.52 million, which is an increase of 0.2 per cent. That's not a standstill budget; that's a real-terms cut. 

So, I think it's a targeted intervention into—

It's not an intervention at all, it's a cut.

No, it's a targeted uplift into pay, and then that modest increase to the line that they've seen in revenue. So, it's an increase, with a targeted intervention.

It's a cut. We went through this a decade ago in austerity. A 0.2 per cent increase, when inflation is projected when this comes into reality next April to be 2 per cent, is a cut, and with inflation today at 3.6 per cent, it's a cut. And I don't understand how anybody can argue that it is an increase. It's a real-terms cut.

Well, Chair, again, I think we're repeating the same thing. 

No, we're not. I'm asking a different question. I haven't asked this question before.

The answer is, what I said earlier, that this is a start of a process, isn't it? This is what the draft budget has laid out—the restated budget as the finance Secretary has laid out. We've made a targeted uplift, particularly on pay. Yes, there is a modest revenue—. I appreciate the Member's take on this, but this is a start of a process, not the end of the process.

But the start of the process was the standstill budget, which we will all have different views on, but let's just accept the fact of a standstill budget for the basis of our conversation this morning. The start of that, and this is where the process starts, Minister, is 2 per cent. That's what we were told by Mark Drakeford; I was in the Chamber for it. That's not 2 per cent, that's 0.2 per cent.

Yes, and there's been a targeted uplift in pay in particular, and then that increase, as the Member has described, in revenue allocation.

Well, it's a cut. It's a cut. And I know you can argue otherwise; we've been through this before at different times. So, we're cutting the arts council. We're not standing still; we're cutting the arts council, and that's going to have an impact right across the sector.

Alun, could I interrupt you a moment? We seem to have gone into private session and we're not sure why. We're just going to take a quick pause to try and make sure that we go back into public.

Right, we are back in public. Back to you, Alun.

So, we've seen this cut proposed to the arts council budget, and that's going to have an impact across the sector, which I think most of us will understand. So, I'm interested, therefore, in where your priorities are. Now, the Government and your predecessor in the post heard enough about my priorities when she was answering questions here, and I'm still concerned about where we are with the national contemporary art gallery. At a time when we're cutting budgets, is this or should this be a priority for the Welsh Government?

CELF, Chair, is a priority for the Government. It's a priority for arm's-length bodies as well, and I think we've seen the success of CELF across Wales, particularly in the galleries within which we've been able to display. In terms of Ruthin in particular, it was a great success story, and I was pleased to visit there. I think I take the Member's view, and I have before, which is that we need to look to expand CELF when we can get there into areas like his own, and I'm committed to doing that. But I do think it's important for the people of Wales to have access to the CELF project in areas across Wales, so, yes, I do think it is a priority, and it's a priority for our partners who are delivering CELF as well.

I'm just interested that you say that, because at a time when we're cutting back on some of the core activities and looking towards making further cuts, at a time when we are already one of the least well-funded sectors anywhere in Europe, I'm just wondering whether the Government should be really focusing on its core work and delivering core activities, rather than branching out. The Minister indicates that CELF doesn't touch the Valleys, it doesn't touch the Valleys, a million people untouched by it, a third of the population untouched by it, and that's a curious view of priorities, I would suggest.

We have our 'Priorities for Culture'. CELF is not the only intervention that the Government makes in arts, culture and sport, but it's one of the vehicles by which we can get people across Wales to access culture in a way. I think it's a good project, and I'm proud to support that project. I repeat my line to the Member as well: I take it you want and I want to see the Valleys involved in CELF as soon as it's possible to do so. I've said that consistently, Chair, and I won't change my opinion on that at all. I think that's the right thing to do, and as soon we can reach those people in the Valleys through CELF, then we should, and we will. But CELF is not the only intervention that we make in this space.

I think Jason wants to come in just before we come back to Alun.

Only very briefly, Chair, thank you. Just to say that the commitment to CELF was very much part of the co-operation agreement, and then, secondly—

I disagreed with it then. [Laughter.]

Secondly, I'd certainly recognise Mr Davies's point about the lack of the Valleys in there, but it certainly wasn't for the lack of trying. I was heavily involved with that at the outset, and we really did work hard with the Valleys local authorities, Rhondda Cynon Taf and Caerphilly in particular, to try and get a site that was in there and it just didn't work for them at the time. It really wasn't for the lack of trying.

I understand that the Government was trying and not succeeding. I understand that, but my question was about a sense of priorities. We've got these significant cuts coming down the line now through this budget to the arts council and to all of the arts council-funded bodies, and yet we're looking at branching out to do things that aren't currently being done. I'm just thinking that if I was looking at these budgets, I would be wanting to protect the budgets, rather than actually start on something different, but that's a matter of debate, isn't it? 

It's a matter for debate. 

Okay. That isn't necessarily a question. Any further questions on this, Alun? 

No.

No. Could I check one thing before we move back to Heledd? In terms of how CELF will be funded, regardless of different views on where it should be prioritised, you have stated in the past, Minister, that you wanted to see a situation arising where CELF is sustained through the partners. Now, each of the partners have said to us that the project would need ongoing Welsh Government support. Is it still your aim, please, for the partners to sustain it themselves, and would you recognise if they do that, as they have warned us, that they would need to be making cuts elsewhere? 

So, CELF, as I've described, is a priority for us. It's a priority for our partners. It's one of the areas we point to in our remit letter, Chair, and, yes, it is still my view that it should be self-sustaining as a project and through partners as well. I think it's early days, and where we are, we've supported CELF previously, we've supported them this year, and, through requests from partners, we've been able to allocate funding in the draft budget for next year to help them go on. But it is my strong view that CELF should become self-sustaining through partners in the future, and they should look at ways that that can be achieved. We'll work with them to—

Right. So, it isn't an immediate request that you'd be making of them. Okay, thank you. 

Well, no, it's an ongoing request, isn't it, but we've responded to them because of the importance of the project. They have requested additional money this year, and we were able to do that, and they requested additional for the draft budget, and we've been able to put that into the draft budget line as well. I think there's an ongoing partnership between us where we can have these types of conversations, but the strong view is that it should be self-sustaining in the future, and that's what we should all work towards.

Thank you. If I can just pick up on that point, I'd be grateful if you could talk me through page 23 of your evidence and the chart that's in that in terms of the contributing costs towards CELF in 2026-27. It says that there's an agreement in principle. Could you explain, first of all, what 'in principle' means? And also, in terms of the breakdown of each of the commitments, I note the commitment in terms of Welsh Government's contribution, which is in the budget, but have you received any updates from the other organisations noted if the contributions that they've noted they will be making are still achievable within the budget that's in the draft budget?

Chair, all partners and all arm's-length bodies have to create their operational plans based on the budget that is set. CELF is one of the priorities within this, so they will have to respond to the budget that is set. The contribution that we have made is one that was agreed on the basis of what the partners asked for, and we've responded in that way, so we've put into the budget exactly the request that partners made.

Thank you. But, if I may, my question is, as my colleague Alun Davies referenced earlier, when it's a 0.2 per cent increase for the arts council, and we see that it's a less-than-inflation increase for Amgueddfa Cymru and the National Library of Wales, what will they have to cut in order to be able to honour the figures in this chart then? Because, obviously, if they have to find it within their existing budgets, their budgets are going to be squeezed, so you're asking them to continue with this—. If you're confident that they're going to find this within their budgets, there'll be other activities impacted then, won't there?

Chair, I want them to continue with the work on CELF, the good work that they are doing on CELF; it's a major priority for us. I'm not going to sit here and tell the committee what Amgueddfa Cymru or the national library are going to do or are not going to do, based on the budget that they have. It's for them to set their operational plans, not me.

If I might just come in briefly, Heledd. The concern that we have is that Amgueddfa Cymru have told us that there were, I think, two independent assessments that have been made into whether the model for CELF could ever be self-sustaining and both have said that it cannot be. And so, the concern that they have expressed is that, if they were to look towards sustaining it, it would require cuts. I'm sure that they, as we do as a committee, will appreciate what you've said, that it is a future desire that you would wish to see, but those assessments that have been conducted independently, they are concerning. Would you agree that that's something, maybe, to look at?

Well, we've contributed to CELF again because of those additional requests that have come in to make it. I still think that the case can be made where we can get to a self-sustaining place. We'll work with all partners to see if that is achievable and how that is achievable, Chair.

Diolch. Heledd.

Thank you. If I may, of course I appreciate what you're saying in that it's up to Amgueddfa Cymru and related bodies to decide how they spend the budgets available to them, but what conversations have you had to understand how they would need to reduce programming and activities to address that shortfall? Is that an ongoing dialogue with you, your officials, to really understand the implications of the budget?

We have conversations, through myself and the leadership team, and officials have regular conversations with our arm's-length bodies and partners there. They're always constructive conversations and I think I'd welcome that relationship going forward. We, of course, have ongoing conversations. We will continue those conversations as the budget process continues.

Thank you. But, obviously, if they impacted their capacity to deliver on 'Priorities for Culture', for example, would that be something that you would be alerted to? How does that work? Because, obviously, you have the remit letter, you have things that you expect them to deliver for Welsh Government funding, but if they have to make cuts to programming, how does that then impact how you monitor the success of 'Priorities for Culture'?

The process is, Chair, that arm's-length bodies set their operational plans based on the budget that they are awarded. It's against those operational plans that we manage success throughout the year. That's the process. It won't change this time. It's exactly the same. We'll go on in that way.

Obviously, you've emphasised a lot in terms of how we increase access to the collections, ensure people from different backgrounds can enjoy them, how do you track those then, so that it's linked to the funding? So, for example, if they have to cut some programmes that actually deliver on those areas, surely you can see then, through the tracking of priorities for culture, how the budget might impact on that delivery? Or, do you not monitor as closely as that?

No, we have those biannual scrutiny sessions where things like priorities for culture and other things will be discussed with the leadership of those arm's-length bodies. That's not the only way we're delivering our priorities for culture, there are the other areas where the Government invests directly. I just want to point to one scheme that we have had real success in, Chair, in terms of access to culture. I was able to join a school from Llanrumney in Cardiff museum recently. The teacher had never been to that museum. Those children have had access. I asked them if they would come back, now that they'd been, and they all said 'yes'. That particular scheme was a direct investment through 'Priorities for Culture', which looked at the transportation costs for schools. We all know around this table that's one of the biggest barriers. We make other investments into that area. I think, just based on that example, you can see how worthwhile and how successful that particular pot of money has been.

Diolch. Before we continue with Heledd's questioning, Gareth has a supplementary.

One of the gripes that you get in north Wales, particularly in areas of historical prestige, is the lack of access to local collections, particularly in castle towns like Rhuddlan in my constituency, for example. They'll say, 'Why are the collections in Cardiff? Why are they sitting in a basement somewhere in Cardiff, for example? Why can't they be displayed locally? All that history. Why would we have to go down and travel four or five hours to access what we had historically here?' So, are there any conversations that have been had, or ongoing, with local authorities or Cadw or any relevant bodies to discuss how we get local collections within communities, rather than it be seemingly centrally focused, as it currently stands?

Thank you for that, Gareth. I just want to point to perhaps two areas: one on the Cadw front, and then one towards museums. I think it's really important for people across Wales to access their local history on their doorstep. It's what the priorities for culture are built upon. It's what I heard very early on in coming into this role. The example I just gave with Llanrumney going in, that's happening across Wales as well. I was in Flint castle with two local primary schools from the local area, who were engaged in activity at Flint castle but they were also engaged in the activity through Minecraft, which was opening up history and local heritage in a different way. Again, I think that's a really successful programme. But I take his point on the importance of accessing that local history, and the north Wales point. This brings me to the point I wanted to make on museums. I agree with him: I think collections should be in places where people can access them, and I think they also could be in places where local history is told.

What work is the Government doing to have those conversations?

The Government has regular conversations about that. I will give the very real example from not too far away from where Gareth and I live. You're seeing significant investment from this Government in terms of the Wrexham museum and the football museum of Wales. You will have seen the campaign, led by Carolyn Thomas, to bring the Caergwrle bowl to north Wales. We've had conversations with Amgueddfa Cymru about that, and they are very clear that if an accredited museum makes a request to loan items, they will consider that very seriously. So, if a request came forward, for example, by Wrexham museum, when it opens in the new year, to showcase the Caergwrle bowl close to where it originally came from, then I think they would look favourably on that. We are having ongoing conversations with them. If the Member knows of any accredited local museums in the local area who want to access that history, then please have the conversation with those who have access to the collections, like Amgueddfa Cymru. And if it isn't a conversation like the one I've described, then I'd be very happy to take that forward with them, because I think his point is a good point made.

Thank you. Heledd.

If I can ask on that point, because one thing that's come up in our budget scrutiny and annual scrutiny with the sponsored bodies has been the issue of security. That's no surprise, of course, obviously, following that attack on St Fagans—an attack on Welsh culture and what's owned by the people of Wales. But also in terms of digital security, we saw the attack on the British Library. The national library in particular were talking about the capital need in terms of digital. We've often talked about capital in terms of a leaking roof et cetera, but there's a very real need for that investment. How does this draft budget take into account the increasing risk, both digitally and in terms of the attacks we've seen across the world on national collections, and how does that marry with the desire of everyone, I think, to see national collections be distributed? Because obviously there are increased security costs linked to that aspiration as well.

On security, I think you had evidence from the museum afterwards, so I don't want to go over the evidence of what happened at St Fagans and the responses that you had from the museum. I think they were positive in terms of the support they've had for security. I do take the point very seriously on the cyber threat. It's not just threats as we typically have seen, and what we saw at St Fagans and what we saw in Paris as well, and across the world, but, of course, cyber is a very real security threat, not just in culture, but across all organisations across the globe. Organisations are alive to that. I had a conversation during one of my biannual scrutiny sessions with the national library recently to understand the work that they are doing on this, and they are doing some good work in this space. I have asked for the lessons that they've learned in this space to be shared with other arm's-length bodies. I think the restated budget allows them to continue with that important work. 

Thank you. It's just understanding across the whole estate and local museums, really. I understand the assurances you've given in terms of the national museum of Wales, but I just wondered if that's an active consideration. Is that being reflected in the draft budget—any need for even an audit or increased capacity to support local museums, perhaps, as an example?

We support local museums in various different ways. The 'Priorities for Culture' allows capital investment, and there's revenue investment as well. I'll just bring Paul in, who leads on local museums in particular, on that point.

Thank you, Minister. I think I mentioned earlier on that we did an audit of the local museum sector a couple of years ago. I think the figure that arose from that at the time in terms of capital requirements was something like £40-odd million across the whole of the sector potentially required. Not all of that was related to environmental and security issues, but this is a very good point well made. We've targeted some of our investment via our capital schemes over the last couple of years to help our local sectors address environmental and security concerns, not just so that those facilities can stay open, but so that they are more able to receive items on loan, and so that bodies like them can lend with confidence to the local sector. So, we've done that, and we're looking to continue to do that in terms of prioritising expenditure going forward.

In terms of working with bodies like the museum and the library, and monitoring, which you touched on earlier on, in addition to the regular conversations that I and my team have with the chief exec and the chair and the senior team of all of our arm's-length bodies, we have regular touching points and monitoring during the year, including quarterly monitoring meetings. I chaired one with the amgueddfa earlier this week, funnily enough. There’s a standing item at all of those meetings about how our arm's-length bodies work with and support the local sectors. These sorts of challenges and opportunities around getting collections out into other bodies across Wales so that people can access them—the point that Gareth was making—are absolutely the sort of discussions that we have in those sessions. Indeed, with things like CELF, the investments we've made to support CELF have improved environmental and security standards, deliberately targeted so that we can get collections out closer to where people live.

Thank you. My question was specifically, though, because there's an increased risk acknowledged internationally now around attacks on museums and collections. It's not just Paris and the example of St Fagans that we have. I just wanted to understand in the draft budget if there's been any need to allocate further funding specifically on this to reflect the increase in risk, or are you comfortable that, in what's allocated, everything is in order and you have that assurance from the sector? Because as you mentioned, Paul, that audit of needs within local museums was a few years ago now. Things have changed within local authorities as well. So, just to understand, are you confident that we are doing everything possible and that investment is there to ensure the safety of both national and local collections? 

No-one from the sector has said that we aren't doing work in this space to me. Of course, we encourage that. I've said there are some very good lessons that can be learned from others, and we want to share those lessons with other organisations as well.

There was one final point, on the Government indemnity insurance scheme, something that was mentioned by Amgueddfa Cymru to us yet again. It has been something that it has been well aware of for a number of years now. I just wondered what conversations there have been between the Minister and officials to progress this matter.

Thanks for bringing that up, Heledd. I had a feeling you might want to raise that. There are active conversations on that between officials and the amgueddfa. The committee will appreciate the complex nature of what that looks like, so advice needs to be drafted in a way that is suitable for more than one Minister to look at. I can't say more than that, Chair. Advice is being finalised and drafted and will come to Ministers for consideration, but there are ongoing conversations between the museum, my officials and other Government departments as well.

Diolch, Cadeirydd. Just a short question to start with: why has the revenue funding for Sport Wales increased by just 0.2 per cent?

Chair, I fear we're just going over a similar question, but replacing the arts with sport. 

It's a serious question.

I didn't negate from the seriousness of the matter. We've increased the budget on revenue. I appreciate the Member’s take on that. This is the draft period. There's a process that can take place between draft and final period. It's also, I think, important to point to the increase in capital funding that Sport Wales has had as well to continue the work that they do in this draft budget, which has increased to £10.5 million in this draft budget.

Have there been any conversations with Sport Wales to discuss what the particular consequences may be with an increase of just 0.2 per cent? Have Sport Wales had any conversations with you as to how that would look within the next financial year in terms of budget, staffing—everything that goes with the ramifications of a budget announcement? 

There are ongoing conversations between officials and arm's-length bodies. I don't mean to repeat, but this is the natural process that takes place with all arm's-length bodies, and Sport Wales is exactly the same as the Arts Council of Wales. Sport Wales will set their operational plan with the budget that they have been allocated, so all of those types of things will obviously be part of that process. But we have ongoing conversations with Sport Wales. It's a repeat of where we were last time—

But it's not similar in some ways, is it, because in your response to Alun Davies's question about the Arts Council of Wales, you mentioned about pay increases for staff. Is that the same case within Sport Wales? Obviously, they're different entities. Is that singular approach as effective with different bodies? Because we're talking about two different bodies who do completely different things here.

Sorry, Chair. I should have been more clear, perhaps. It's exactly the same.

Okay. Do you think that approach is right, though, given the differences in the operations that they do? Because you mentioned about pay increases for staff, which is fine, but is that the case within Sport Wales as well? Is the 0.2 per cent going for that reason? It's the same question as what Alun asked. Is that a real-terms cut to Sport Wales's budget, given the difference in their operations? Because they've got completely different functions, and their overheads are completely different to the Arts Council for Wales. So, that universal approach to the budget process, how does that get felt in particular by Sport Wales?

In terms of pay, we've treated the arm's-length bodies in the same way in which arm's-length bodies should be treated. Yes, the uplift in pay is one of the awards that we've made, which has been a significant contribution to it. It's not the only part we've had. On the particular element that Gareth refers to, there's the capital investment for Sport Wales to deliver their programmes. We've seen that in Rydal Penrhos this year. We've seen the opening in Tredegar. We've seen the opening in Maesteg a few weeks ago; there's all of these programmes. The restated budget allows Sport Wales to continue with that process. But on the point on pay and the increase, it's the same for Sport Wales as it is for the arts council. Sorry, I can't be more clear.

Thank you. I just want to go back to the Marmot principles that we were talking about earlier, and what contribution can Sport Wales make to the principles of preventative health. What discussions can be had at an inter-governmental level with the health departments and health boards, NHS Wales, for example, as to how those can be felt tangibly within society, really? 

Thank you, Gareth. I think everything that Sport Wales does, by the very nature of encouraging physical activity, supports progress towards a Marmot nation. That was before, that was afterwards, and it's the same now—everything Sport Wales does. On the point on inter-governmental conversations, it's a similar answer to before. I can't get away from that. I think there are opportunities in the future for investment in things like sport and through Sport Wales to deliver more for that preventative nature, but by the nature of what sport gives, it does contribute to that Marmot nation. It would be for other Secretaries to— 

It's a similar subject of questioning, but what I'm trying to establish is what cross-departmental conversations are being had with health authorities. Because, for example, you can have GP referrals for Kickstart and things like that, which are seen as preventative health. So, I'm just trying to understand what that means within reality. In terms of on the ground, if somebody wants to engage with Marmot principles—they probably wouldn't be delivered like that on the ground, but, in terms of in practice, what would that look like for somebody or for a society who wants to engage with a community sport project or a fitness programme that can be deemed to be a preventative health measure?

So, look, I think Sport Wales are already set up to do that. They have set up partnerships across Wales that bring together all of those partners in the local community, so health, housing, police, all of these different organisations, through that partnership, to allow exactly what Gareth says is happening. I think sport plays a really important role to support us in that Marmot nation principle. I think it was already doing that, and it will go on to do that as well. We have regular discussions about how Sport Wales contribute to the 'A Healthier Wales' plan, and I think that underpins what a Marmot nation is.

Just finally, just to touch on the historical environment, have you reached a decision on the relationship between Cadw and the royal commission at all, and how have you considered the impact of uncertainty around their future status on their financial planning?

The answer is, no, I haven't made a decision on that yet. I'm hoping to make a decision fairly soon. Advice is coming to me and I'll make that decision then. I think the budget that we have set has considered all of the options of the working group report, so I don't have concern there, but I want to be able to make the decision under all of the advice, and that's coming to me. As soon as I can make that decision and have made that decision, I will provide a statement to the Senedd and I will make sure that the commission and, particularly, the commission staff are made aware that I am going to do that.

Thank you. Okay. Before we move on, Heledd had a supplementary.

Yes. If I can just return to Sport Wales, when they gave evidence to us in October, Sport Wales were talking about the investment required, and said that, if they were to be in a comparable state to other home country sports councils, they'd need about £20 million additional a year. It was £200 million to be in line with the average for European countries. So, can I ask what discussions are ongoing with Sport Wales to understand that level of disparity and also to understand how, if we are to really fulfil that desire for greater emphasis on prevention—? Do you think there needs to be a shift in that budget? Does it worry you that there's that difference at the moment between comparable sports councils?

So, I think it's—. The conversations with Sport Wales, as with other arm's-length bodies, are ongoing. I have my regular sessions with them. We are in regular contact in other avenues as well, and I expect that to continue. The capital investment in sports, since a decade ago, is miles ahead, Chair, in terms of funding. They've had an increase in this budget as well. I take—. I'm sorry, but there is an increase in the capital budget, Chair, regardless of whether the Member wants to laugh about that or not. It's a very serious matter and it is true. I take the point on wider investments. This is not the only investment made in sporting facilities. I think that's one of them, through the sports council, but other areas do as well. So, schools invest in the sustainable communities for learning programme; I always get the name wrong, but it is the twenty-first century schools. They also invest in provision for sporting facilities as well, so it's not the only one. But I have regular discussions with Sport Wales, and I'll continue having those discussions with them.

Thank you. Just for clarity and for the record, I did not laugh in terms of your response—

I didn't put you—. I should have said 'Alun'. Sorry, I should have named him.

So, just for the record there.

No. It wasn't you.

Thank you. It's just to understand, with that £20 million, which seems a significant amount—. Can I also understand—? Obviously, one of the things that we've seen recently as well, with extreme weather, is that a number of sports facilities have been impacted, specifically with flooding. So, can I ask, in terms of that resilience piece of work, how is the funding being allocated within the draft budget, and also getting to grips to understand that any investment we made also helps with the resilience of those facilities?

So, I think Sport Wales do that anyway. We've seen that in the past. We've seen them make investments in the space where flooding has impacted sporting facilities across Wales. I expect them to use the draft budget to continue in that vein. So, I do think they do that already, and I expect them to make the same. Jason, did you want to add to some of that? 

I'll bring Jason in briefly.

Yes, very briefly. There is another example of where another funding pot from elsewhere in Government contributes to the Minister's portfolio. So, we've got a live scheme at the moment called weather-proofing, which is delivered through Visit Wales. That's a grant fund available to a range of different organisations across Wales, including sports bodies, cultural bodies, the third sector, to apply for grant capital funding to weather-proof their facilities. It's quite useful in Wales on an annual basis. So, we are hoping that a lot of sports bodies will come through that fund. It's a different budget portfolio. Again, it's why it's complicated to really see where all the money goes into this portfolio, because other bits do similar things that help as well. But that's just a really live example. It's small, it won't do those big requirements that the Member mentions there, but it will be really useful for small-scale capital interventions.

Thank you so much. We'll move on to the final area. I know that there's one final supplementary—I'll bring a Member in at the end. But on the creative industries, could you give us any more detail, please, on—? You talked about the allocation of £1.97 million to Medr to support performance-based music and drama conservatoire provision—is there any more information you could give us on that, please?

Yes, Chair. So, we're providing Medr with that additional funding, and that will go to support the Royal Welsh College of Music and Drama, so they can continue providing that quality student experience, particularly the high-quality training that they provide for creating the arts. So, it's an allocation of funding to Medr through the higher education route, and it's going to support the Royal Welsh College of Music and Drama. I think that's responded to some of the calls from the Senedd and this committee as well.

Thank you. That's very welcome. Thank you for clarifying that. It has been drawn to our attention—evidently, we've noticed this as a committee as well—that whether we look at them as cuts or modest increases, they haven't been the same across the board. The revenue funding for Creative Wales has increased significantly more than other areas in this portfolio. And just to draw one of the contrasts, we've had correspondence about the publishing industry. I recognise, of course, that the Books Council of Wales budget hasn't been set yet, but looking towards what the impact of standstill funding could be on the publishing sector—and this correspondence has made the comparison with the increase in Creative Wales's funding—what would your justification be, please, both for why the increase has been so starkly different, then, for that one area, and what that might have meant in terms of the opportunity cost elsewhere?

So, I anticipated that that might be a question, Chair. The increase in Creative Wales revenue funding of—. There has been £1.4 million that has been allocated to non-domestic rating for studios. I think committee members would think that's a good thing. What typically happens, Chair, in previous budgets, is that that's transferred across from other areas in a supplementary budget. It's just the case this year that we've made the allocation in this budget. So, that's why there's a big difference there.

Okay. Thank you. I'm—

I recognise—. I should say that I recognise your points on the publishing industry and others, and of course we want to try and support them as much as we can. It's an important industry for Wales.

Any message of hope that you can give to them would be welcomed.

I think I try and do that every time I come in front of this committee, Chair, so—.

Thank you, Minister. I'm going to bring Heledd in on this.

Thank you. Just on that point, obviously, it's difficult to know what the position of the Books Council of Wales is within that currently. Do you envisage the new audiences fund being continued? Is that something you're hopeful for within the draft budget?

I think the new audiences fund is a very good fund. I don't think I can actively say what that would look like, but I'm keen to make sure we work with the sector. If that's the right type of fund, then, you know, I would look to try and support them in the best way possible that I can. I can't say that that's what's going to happen.

Thank you. And just on another point—related—in your evidence paper you submitted prior to scrutiny today, there's an emphasis in terms of how the publishing industry supports Welsh Government's aspirations in terms of literacy. So, how are you working with the Cabinet Secretary for Education to ensure that what's in the draft budget allocations works cross-departmentally to support that, so that the publishing industry can play its role in supporting the Government's wider aspirations in this area?

So, I have continued conversations with the Cabinet Secretary for Education on the role in which the publishing industry can play. I think it's an important one, particularly in schools, where access to books and other things are an integral part of improving literacy and so on, and I would like to see the publishing sector in Wales play an important role in that. But I have ongoing conversations with the Cabinet Secretary around that particular point, and will continue doing so.

Thank you.

We are into the final three minutes—two and a half minutes of time. I know Alun wanted to ask one final question.

Yes. We've debated and discussed various issues around the budget and its impact on your portfolio, but I'm left with the impression that there's a real disconnect in Government—a disconnect between the rhetoric and the reality, a disconnect between what the Government says it's doing and what it's actually delivering. I understand, and I've heard it a number of times, about the debate about Marmot now, but it could have been making the connections, it could have been future generations, it could have been all sorts of different things in the past, and that was going to drive Government in a particular direction; it's a matter for the electorate to determine whether that's happened or not. But wherever money is spent is the most political decision that the Government takes every year. It's where it says its priorities are. And it's clear to me, when you take away the rhetoric and when you take away a lot of what is said, that the arts, culture and sport are simply not a priority for the Government. And it's not just this Government, but successive Welsh Governments over a number of years, because of the numbers we've got.

So, we've got a Government that claims and says it's doing all sorts of different things, in the way that we've heard described, and then we look at the budget and the budget doesn't tell the same story. And that is where I am at the moment. I'm thinking—. I'm listening to what's being said, I'm listening to this stuff about preventative spend, that there's bits coming here and bits coming there and the rest of it, but that's not the story that the budget tells, is it? The story the budget tells is of continuing real-terms decline in investment in this portfolio.

So, Chair, in the 30 seconds that we have, the Member says to take all the rhetoric away and then comes to the table with lots of rhetoric as well—

No, it's just a question. Come on.

No. Look, I do think, as I've said previously—it was the same question in a different way of putting it to me—we have set a draft budget for this particular area. This is not the only area that invests in culture and sport, and I'm happy to provide the committee with that wider information.

Okay. We ended as we began, so there was at least symmetry to it.