Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru

No apologies have been received today, but Alun Davies will be joining slightly later. The meeting is being broadcast live on Senedd.tv, and the Record of Proceedings will be published as usual. Please can Members ensure that all mobile devices are switched to silent mode. Senedd Cymru operates through the medium of both the Welsh and English languages. Interpretation is available during today’s meeting. 

On to item 2, instruments that raise issues to be reported to the Senedd under Standing Order 21.2 or 21.3. I'm suggesting we group items 2.1 and 2.2 together for discussion. The Order and regulations we are considering here amend existing subordinate legislation to correct errors identified by the committee. These instruments have been made in line with commitments given to the committee by the Counsel General and Minister for Delivery. The Order at item 2.1 makes corrections to four existing Orders that relate to different areas of law, namely animal gatherings, cockle fishing management, town and country planning, and developments of national significance. Through the Order, the Government is also taking the opportunity to amend the definition of 'minimum landing size' in the Cockle Fishing Management and Permitting (Specified Area) (Wales) Order 2024, following representation from Natural Resources Wales. It is also making changes to two other Orders to ensure consistent referencing to the body known as the 'Natural Resources Body for Wales'. As regards the Order, Senedd lawyers have identified six technical and two merits reporting points. 

The regulations at item 2.2 make corrections to 10 existing sets of regulations, which again relate to various areas of law, including pupil exclusions and appeals, home energy efficiency schemes, the control of agriculture pollution and NHS joint commissioning committees. As regards the regulations, Senedd lawyers have identified two technical and three merits reporting points. A Welsh Government response has not yet been received to either drafts. 

Firstly, we have Jen, from our legal team. Would you like to run through the reporting points in both reports and any Welsh Government report we've had, if any?

Thank you, Chair. As you mentioned, across both of these two Orders, eight technical reporting points have been identified. Four of these points relate to defective drafting and the further four request a further explanation from the Welsh Government. Both sets of regulations also have two merits points in common, the first of which notes that the titles of the instruments don't really give any indication as to what the instruments relate to, which could cause issues from an accessibility perspective. As you mention, they cover, across the two instruments, a wide range of areas including education, health, water, building control, food, fishing and planning. The second reporting point that they have in common is that some of the issues in subordinate legislation that the Orders seek to address arose as long ago as 2023, so further information is requested from the Welsh Government regarding the delay in addressing them.

In relation to the Amendments to Subordinate Legislation (Minimum Landing Size and Miscellaneous Corrections) (Wales) Order 2025 in particular, an additional merits point notes that there was a pre-existing enforcement issue that limited the ability to take enforcement action in relation to the gathering of undersized cockles, which the Welsh Government is seeking to resolve in this Order. And an additional merits point on the Amendments to Subordinate Legislation (Miscellaneous Corrections) (Wales) Regulations 2025 also notes the potential accessibility issues of using a lengthy and repetitive preamble in a statutory instrument. As you noted, a Welsh Government response has been requested in relation to both Orders but has not yet been received.

Thanks, Jen. Do Members have anything they wish to raise? No. Are we happy to agree the reporting points? Yes. 

On to item 2.3, the Firefighters’ Pension Scheme (Wales) (Amendment) Regulations 2025. These regulations amend the Firefighters’ Pension Scheme (Wales) Regulations 2015. They came into force on 1 September, and they make various provisions in relation to scheme members’ entitlements and contribution rates. Since regulations 5 to 11 involve a change to a protected element of the scheme, the Welsh Ministers have consulted on these regulations with a view to reaching agreement. We have the Welsh Government response to our report in the papers. The Welsh Ministers have laid a report before the Senedd, which we also have in our papers. Jen, would you like to run through the reporting points and the Welsh Government response?

Thank you, Chair. One technical reporting point was identified regarding an inconsistency between the Welsh and English language texts. A further five merits points were also noted relating to the requirement to consult on the publishing of a statement in relation to such consultation before making the regulations, and the correct identification of the legal basis for such consultation, and the inclusion of superfluous definitions, including the lack of certainty regarding the correct version of documentation referred to in various definitions in the regulations. In its response, the Welsh Government acknowledges that there is a difference in the order of the definitions between the Welsh and English texts but doesn’t consider that this affects the meaning or clarity of the regulations.

With regard to the merits reporting points, the Welsh Government provides a further explanation of its position in relation to each one. This includes confirmation that whilst there is an error when referencing the fire and rescue services rolemaps, in that it refers to the version from September 2005 rather than August 2005, the Government has confirmed that its view is that this is clearly a typo as the rolemaps haven’t been updated since August 2005, therefore no confusion will be caused.

Thank you. I don't know if other Members have got anything to raise, but why they can't get the Welsh and English to say the same—. If they've got problems, why can't they do it in Welsh and then translate the Welsh into English? And the second point is, surely somebody should check these things to make sure they get the dates right? But those are just my thoughts. Do any other Members have any comments? No, okay. Thank you very much. Are we happy to agree these reporting points? Yes.

Item 2.4, the Marketing of Fruit Plant and Propagating Material (Wales) (Amendment) Regulations 2025. These regulations amend the 2017 regulations, which aim to control the quality of fruit plants for fruit production and fruit propagating material on the market. These regulations aim to ensure that categorisations of pests and requirements for the places of production are up to date and consistent with developments in the ongoing assessment of risk, and make other technical and corrective amendments. The explanatory memorandum explains that the regulations are appropriate to maintain equivalence with EU requirements so that trade can continue uninterrupted. Equivalent amending legislation has been made in relation to England and Scotland. Northern Ireland is already subject to these arrangements under EU law. Senedd lawyers have identified one technical reporting point. A Welsh Government response has been received. Jen, would you like to run us through the reporting point and the Welsh Government response?

Thank you, Chair. Yes, as you say, only one reporting point has been identified in relation to these regulations, which sought clarity regarding the consequences of the replacement of the word 'variety' with 'species' in the original 2017 regulations. The Welsh Government has this morning responded to that reporting point and notes that although the amendment creates a tension with other provisions in the Schedule, it's not anticipated that this will present practical problems. However, the Government accepts the amendment could be clearer and confirms it will revisit the point the next time the 2017 regulations are being amended. 

Do any Members want to add anything? No. Thank you very much. Are we happy with the reporting point? Yes. 

On to item 2.5, the Education (Student Support) (Wales) (Amendment) Regulations 2025. These regulations amend the 2018 regulations to address a discrepancy in relation to the maximum tuition fee loan entitlement for Welsh students on certain courses. The explanatory memorandum states that the regulations ensure no students on affected courses are disadvantaged by circumstances outside their control. We also have a letter from the Cabinet Secretary for Education to the Llywydd informing her that the instrument breached the 21-day rule, in that it came into force within 21 days of the instrument being laid before the Senedd. Senedd lawyers have identified three merits reporting points. A Welsh Government response has not yet been received. Jen, would you like you to take us through the reporting points?

Thank you, Chair. Yes, three merits points are noted, and the first, as you mentioned, Chair, notes that the 21-day requirement has not been observed. The Cabinet Secretary has provided a letter explaining that this was necessary to ensure that the regulations were in place, so that no students on affected courses were disadvantaged due to circumstances outside their control.

The second point notes that although both the Cabinet Secretary's letter and the explanatory memorandum to the regulations explain that these regulations were necessary, as a result of a review that was carried out by the student loan company, that review identified that not all of the necessary courses had been designated by the Welsh Ministers so that full funding could be provided to students on those courses. However, no information is provided as to when this review took place and the reason why no action was taken earlier, if that was appropriate or possible, to ensure that these courses were designated. So, clarification is sought from the Welsh Government in that regard.

The final point notes that no consultation was carried out for these regulations, again, due to their urgent nature. A Welsh Government response has been requested in relation to these points but has not yet been received.

Thank you, Jen. Do any Members want to raise any points? No. Are we happy with these reporting points? Yes.

Item 3, instruments that raise issues to be reported to the Senedd under Standing Order 21.2 or 21.3—previously considered. The Senedd Cymru (Representation of the People) Order 2025. The committee first considered the draft Senedd Cymru (Representation of the People) Order 2025 at its meeting on 2 June and laid its response the same day. Members will know that the committee has exchanged a series of letters with the Cabinet Secretary on the Order. The committee last wrote to the Cabinet Secretary on 7 July as the relevant Welsh Minister. The Counsel General has responded on behalf of the Government as the Cabinet Member responsible for the legislative programme.

Members may wish to note that the Counsel General is concerned that the committee's focus on drafting and typographical points and inconsistencies between the English and Welsh texts diminishes its wider and more important scrutiny role, and had a detrimental impact on the quality of the debate on this Order. The Counsel General states that she would welcome a meeting with the committee and with the Llywydd to consider how all parties can work together to improve the scrutiny process. Members, do we have any comments for the public session? We may wish to discuss in private. Well, only one thing I'll say in public is: why are the Welsh Government making errors of drafting and typographical points, and inconsistencies in English and Welsh? It's not diminishing the importance of scrutiny; it's pointing out the errors that are being made by the Government. These are not being made by Ministers. Ministers are not expected to check these things, but there's a serious Welsh Government civil service problem that the Welsh Government seem unwilling or unable to address. We can deal with it in more detail later, but I want to put those words on the record.

Notifications and correspondence under the inter-institutional relations agreement—correspondence from the Welsh Government: meetings of inter-ministerial groups. There are 15 papers under this item, so can we go straight to handling them, which is several pages along? We have a number of notifications this week of inter-ministerial group meetings. The majority of notifications are of meetings that have already taken place, and these include: a meeting of the inter-ministerial standing committee that took place in June—there was a discussion around a range of issues, including the review of the United Kingdom Internal Market Act 2020 and its interaction with common frameworks, the Sewel convention and UK legislation; a meeting of the IMG for housing, communities and local government, which also took place in June; a meeting of the IMG on justice in July, which discussed prison capacity and potential reforms to reduce the women’s prison population; a meeting of the British-Irish Council summit held in Northern Ireland in June; a meeting of the Interministerial Group for Elections and Registration on 30 June, which discussed the implementation of online absent voting ahead of the Welsh and Scottish Parliament elections; a meeting of the culture and creative industries IMG on 16 July; a meeting of the environment, food and rural affairs IMG on 22 August; and a meeting of the business and industry IMG, which was due to take place on 9 September but later postponed. Finally, we have a notification in relation to an upcoming meeting of the inter-ministerial group on net zero, energy and climate change—one virtual meeting, which was due to take place on 9 September, has been moved to the seventeenth, and one in-person meeting on 21 October. Have Members got any comments? No. Okay. Thank you very much.

Correspondence from the Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice, Trefnydd and Chief Whip: budget cover transfer to support digital inclusion activity in Wales. The Cabinet Secretary’s letter informs us of a funding agreement to support digital inclusion activity in Wales for the financial year 2025-26. Have Members got any comments? No. 

Papers to note. We've correspondence from the Chairs' forum to committees on reviewing committee effectiveness in the sixth Senedd. The Chairs' forum has written to all Senedd Committees with the aim of identifying whether committee procedures and practices can be improved in the seventh Senedd. A consultation has been launched and committees have been asked to respond with an extended deadline of 10 October. We may wish to discuss a potential response in private session. Do Members have any comments that they wish to make in public? No. 

Item 5.2, correspondence from the Cabinet Secretary for Economy, Energy and Planning to the Economy, Trade and Rural Affairs Committee on the Data (Use and Access) Bill. The Cabinet Secretary has written to the Economy, Trade and Rural Affairs Committee in response to its recommendation that the Welsh Government provide updates on its discussions with the UK Government on EU data adequacy and any implications the Bill may have on trade until the UK’s adequacy status beyond December 2025 is secured. The Cabinet Secretary states in her letter that the European Commission has announced a six-month extension to the existing EU data adequacy decisions for the UK until 27 December this year. The European Commission is now assessing whether the UK’s new legal framework continues to provide an adequate level of protection for personal data. Based on this assessment, the European Commission has indicated it will decide whether to renew the EU data adequacy decisions for the UK. The Cabinet Secretary concludes her letter by saying:

'Whilst this assessment is ongoing, the Welsh Government will continue to engage with the UK Government in relation to the EU’s data adequacy decisions for the UK through the appropriate inter-governmental channels.'

Do Members have any comments? No.

Correspondence in relation to the UK Government response to the review of the United Kingdom Internal Market Act 2020 and public consultation. Members are invited to note the letter from the UK Minister of State for Trade Policy and Economic Security and the UK Government response to the review to which the committee also submitted evidence. We also have a letter and written statement from the Deputy First Minister, detailing the Welsh Government’s views on that response. The Deputy First Minister says in his letter that

'the changes being made by the UK Government, both immediately preceding the review and now at its conclusion, are a welcome step in the right direction to address our shared concerns with UKIMA. But we believe this should be the beginning of an ongoing process to improve the governance of the UK internal market, not the end.

'I am now keen for my officials to work with their UK Government counterparts to refine, clarify and implement the proposals. We need to make these work whilst continuing to make the case for longer-term legislative change.'

Do Members have any comments? Alun. Croeso.

I think that the UK Government review of UKIMA is inadequate. It doesn't, as far as I understand, include some of the financial elements to it, which have been most difficult and damaging. In terms of taking this forward, whilst I recognise what the Deputy First Minister is saying, I think that his response is inadequate as well. So we need, as a committee, I think, to look hard at the view that we're going to take on this. We've taken, Gareth, quite a firm stance on this in the past, and I think that we should maintain that firm stance and say that UKIMA is an affront to the constitutional structure of the United Kingdom and the democracy of the United Kingdom and that it needs to be repealed and replaced by an agreed framework between all of the Governments of the United Kingdom.

Thank you, Alun. Anyone else? No. Okay. 

I'll take from that that everybody agrees with me.

Well, no-one has disagreed with you, Alun, so—.

The policy of the Government is still in favour of repeal, isn't it? But what's not clear from the response of the Deputy First Minister is what's going to happen now. They've restated their policy; that isn't the policy of the Westminster Government. Okay, they welcomed the changes as far as they go, but is that it, then? They should be emphasising their disappointment, perhaps, more than the welcome they've given to the small changes in the right direction. What's the mechanism now for refocusing the debate on the fundamental inequities of the Act and the need for repeal?

I agree.

Just for the avoidance of doubt, I don't fully agree with all of Alun's points. There's much that I do agree with, but there are some benefits to the idea of UKIMA within a United Kingdom. There are some other points that I'll make in private session, I'm sure.

Thank you, Sam. I tend to agree with you that there are advantages in having this sorted out at a UK level.

Next we have nine Welsh Government responses to reports we published last term. Correspondence from the Welsh Government: the Welsh Government’s response to the committee’s report on the Welsh Government’s supplementary legislative consent memorandum No. 3 on the Employment Rights Bill. Members will wish to note for the record this Welsh Government response to our report, which was received before the summer recess. The response was circulated to Members prior to the Plenary debate, which took place on 15 July. Do Members have any comments they wish to make? If not, we’ll move on to the next item.

Correspondence from the Welsh Government: the Welsh Government’s response to the committee’s report on the Welsh Government’s legislative consent memorandum on the Crime and Policing Bill. Members are invited to note the Welsh Government’s response to our report on the Crime and Policing Bill. Do Members have any comments they wish to make? No.

Correspondence from the Welsh Government: the Welsh Government’s response to the committee’s report on the Welsh Government’s supplementary legislative consent memorandum on the bus Bill. Members are invited to note the Welsh Government’s response to the conclusions and recommendations in our report on the Bus Services (No. 2) Bill. The Committee is considering its draft report on memorandum No. 3 later this afternoon. Do Members have any comments they wish to make? No. We’ll move on to the next item.

Item 5.7, correspondence from the Welsh Government: the Welsh Government’s response to the committee’s report on the Welsh Government’s legislative consent memorandum on the Victims and Courts Bill. Members are invited to note the Welsh Government’s response to our report on the Victims and Courts Bill. Do Members have any comments they wish to make? If no, we’ll move on. 

Correspondence from the Welsh Government: the Welsh Government’s response to the committee’s report on the Welsh Government’s legislative consent memorandum on the Animal Welfare (Import of Dogs, Cats and Ferrets) Bill. Members are invited to note the Welsh Government’s response to our report on the Animal Welfare (Import of Dogs, Cats and Ferrets) Bill. The committee is considering its draft report on memorandum No. 2 later this afternoon. Members will be aware that a legislative consent debate is scheduled to take place in Plenary tomorrow afternoon. Do Members have any comments they wish to make? No.

Shall we deal with items 5.9 and 5.10 together for discussion? Item 5.9, correspondence from the Minister for Mental Health and Wellbeing: the Welsh Government’s response to the committee’s report on the Welsh Government’s supplementary legislative consent memorandum No. 3 on the Mental Health Bill. Correspondence from the Minister for Mental Health and Wellbeing: the Welsh Government’s response to the committee’s report on the Welsh Government’s supplementary legislative consent memorandum No. 4 on the Mental Health Bill. Members are invited to note the Welsh Government’s response to our reports on the Mental Health Bill. The Committee is considering its draft report on memorandum No. 5 later this afternoon. Do Members have any comments they may wish to make? No.

Item 5.11, correspondence from the Welsh Government: the Welsh Government’s response to the committee’s report on the Welsh Government’s legislative consent memorandum on the Absent Voting (Elections in Scotland and Wales) Bill. Members are invited to note the Welsh Government’s response to our report on the Absent Voting (Elections in Scotland and Wales) Bill. Members will be aware that a legislative consent debate is scheduled to take place in Plenary tomorrow afternoon. Do Members have any comments they wish to make? No.

Correspondence from the Cabinet Secretary for Economy, Energy and Planning: the Welsh Government’s response to the committee’s report on the Welsh Government’s supplementary legislative consent memorandum No. 3 on the Planning and Infrastructure Bill. Members are invited to note the Welsh Government’s response to our report on the Planning and Infrastructure Bill. The committee is considering memorandum No. 4 later this afternoon. Do Members have any comments? If not, we'll move onto the next item.

Correspondence from the Cabinet Secretary for Economy, Energy and Planning to the Climate Change, Environment and Infrastructure Committee: the Welsh Government's legislative consent memorandum on the Planning and Infrastructure Bill. Members are invited to note the Welsh Government’s response to the Climate Change, Environment and Infrastructure Committee’s report, as well as notification from the Cabinet Secretary that a consultation is under way in relation to streamlining infrastructure planning.  

Item 5.14, correspondence in relation to the Homelessness and Social Housing Allocation (Wales) Bill. We have a number of items of correspondence in relation to the Homelessness and Social Housing Allocation (Wales) Bill, including correspondence exchanged with the Cabinet Secretary following the ministerial evidence session on 23 June, and we also have correspondence between the Welsh Local Government Association and the Local Government and Housing Committee. We'll be considering a draft of our report on the Bill in private session later. Do Members have any comments that they wish to make at this stage? No. 

Item 5.15, written statement by the Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Climate Change and Rural Affairs: Welsh Government response to the Independent Water Commission report. The Deputy First Minister welcomes the publication of the Independent Water Commission’s report and states that the Welsh Government will be working collaboratively with the UK Government in respect of a White Paper, which will be published this autumn. Do Members have any comments? No.

Item 5.16, correspondence from the Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Climate Change and Rural Affairs: the UK Emissions Trading Scheme Authority interim responses on the expansion of the UK ETS. The Deputy First Minister’s letter informs us of the publication of interim authority responses on the expansion of the UK ETS, which are accessible on our agenda. He states that the full authority responses will be published prior to the laying of legislation to enact the changes, and that the Senedd, along with other UK Parliaments, will have the opportunity to scrutinise plans once they are finalised. Do Members have any comments?

Correspondence with the Lady Chief Justice of England and Wales: invitation to provide oral evidence. Members are invited to note the Lady Chief Justice’s acceptance to give evidence to us early next year in relation to justice in Wales. We will publish the arrangements closer to the time. Do Members have any comments apart from to welcome it?

Correspondence from the Minister for Culture, Skills and Social Partnership: regulations in relation to Part 3 of the Social Partnership and Public Procurement (Wales) Act 2023. The Minister’s letter informs us that a consultation has been launched to gather public views on draft regulations in relation to Part 3 of the Social Partnership and Public Procurement (Wales) Act 2023. The consultation is open until 14 October. If Members are content to note it, then we’ll move on to the next item. Happy to note?

Correspondence from the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care: His Majesty's Prison Parc. It's taken me some time to get around the change from Her to His Majesty. Following a visit the committee made to Parc prison in June, we wrote to the Welsh Government to draw relevant issues to its attention. The Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care has responded. Do Members have any comments they wish to make? No.

Written statement by the Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Climate Change and Rural Affairs: preparation for the devolution of justice. The Deputy First Minister’s written statement informs Members of discussions between the Welsh and UK Governments regarding the devolution of justice to Wales. The Deputy First Minister says that the Welsh Government

'continue to support the devolution of justice in its entirety',

that they discussed various aspects including youth justice and probation, and that he expects discussions to progress over the coming weeks. Do Members have any comments? No.

Correspondence from the Cabinet Secretary for Transport and North Wales: the Bus Services (Wales) Bill. In August, the Cabinet Secretary sent an interim response to us in relation to our Stage 1 report on the Bill, which we published on 17 July. He has now sent a full response. Members will be aware that the Stage 1 general principles debate on the Bill is due to take place in Plenary tomorrow afternoon. Do Members have any comments they wish to make? No. We’ll move on to the next item.

Correspondence with the Welsh Government: legislative consent memoranda in the final two terms of the sixth Senedd. The Counsel General’s letter responds to our request for information about forthcoming UK Bills that are anticipated to require the Senedd’s consent. She states that while inter-governmental working on UK legislation has improved, there are instances where information may be limited or subject to confidentiality requirements. In this context, she states she will ask her officials to regularly share information on UK legislation with the committee clerks. We may wish to return to this in private session, but do Members have any comments they wish to make in public session? No.

Item 5.23, president of the Welsh Tribunals's annual report. Members are invited to note the president of the Welsh Tribunals’s annual report 2024-25, and also his priorities for the year ahead. Do Members have any comments? 

Written statement by the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Welsh Language: public consultation on making changes to the Welsh tax Acts. The Cabinet Secretary for finance has launched a public consultation to inform the Welsh Ministers’ statutory review of the operation and effect of the Welsh Tax Acts etc. (Power to Modify) (Wales) Act 2022. Members may recall that the Act’s review provision was included following recommendations made by this committee and the Finance Committee during its passage through the Senedd. Do Members have any comments they wish to make? No.

On the correspondence from the Cabinet Secretary for Economy, Energy and Planning on the Trade Act 2021, the Cabinet Secretary for Economy, Energy and Planning informs us that the UK Government has written to the Welsh Government setting out its intention to extend section 2 of the Trade Act 2021, which enables the UK Government to implement trade continuity agreements. Do Members have any comments? No.

Item 5.26 is the House of Lords International Agreements Committee report on its review of treaty scrutiny. Members are invited to note the report, which is hyperlinked in the supplementary pack. Members will know that this committee submitted evidence to the review in May. Do Members have any comments? No.

Can I move a motion in accordance with Standing Orders 17.42(vi) and (ix) and invite the committee to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting? Do Members agree? Yes. We're now moving into private session.