Y Pwyllgor Deddfwriaeth, Cyfiawnder a’r Cyfansoddiad

Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee

17/03/2025

Aelodau'r Pwyllgor a oedd yn bresennol

Committee Members in Attendance

Adam Price
Alun Davies
Laura Anne Jones
Mike Hedges Cadeirydd y Pwyllgor
Committee Chair

Swyddogion y Senedd a oedd yn bresennol

Senedd Officials in Attendance

Gerallt Roberts Ail Glerc
Second Clerk
Kate Rabaiotti Cynghorydd Cyfreithiol
Legal Adviser
P Gareth Williams Clerc
Clerk
Sarah Sargent Ail Glerc
Second Clerk

Cofnodir y trafodion yn yr iaith y llefarwyd hwy ynddi yn y pwyllgor. Yn ogystal, cynhwysir trawsgrifiad o’r cyfieithu ar y pryd. Mae hon yn fersiwn ddrafft o’r cofnod. 

The proceedings are reported in the language in which they were spoken in the committee. In addition, a transcription of the simultaneous interpretation is included. This is a draft version of the record. 

Cyfarfu’r pwyllgor drwy gynhadledd fideo.

Dechreuodd y cyfarfod am 13:03.

The committee met by video-conference.

The meeting began at 13:03. 

1. Cyflwyniad, ymddiheuriadau, dirprwyon a datgan buddiannau
1. Introduction, apologies, substitutions and declarations of interest

Prynhawn da a chroeso i gyfarfod hwn o'r Pwyllgor Deddfwriaeth, Cyfiawnder a'r Cyfansoddiad.

Good afternoon and welcome to this meeting of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee.

No apologies have been received today, but Alun Davies will be joining later. As a reminder, the meeting is being broadcast live on Senedd.tv and the Record of Proceedings will be published as usual. Please can Members ensure that all mobile devices are switched to silent mode? Senedd Cymru operates through the medium of both the Welsh and English languages, and interpretation is available. 

2. Offerynnau nad ydynt yn cynnwys materion i gyflwyno adroddiad arnynt i’r Senedd o dan Reol Sefydlog 21.2 neu 21.3
2. Instruments that raise no reporting issues under Standing Order 21.2 or 21.3

That takes us on to item 2, instruments that raise no reporting issues under Standing Order 21.2. The Partnership Arrangements (Wales) (Amendment) Regulations 2025. These regulations amend the Partnership Arrangements (Wales) Regulations 2015 to enable partnership bodies to exercise greater flexibility in the way that they pool funds in the exercise of their functions in relation to care home accommodation for older people. Senedd lawyers have identified no reporting points. Do Members have any comments? No. Are we happy with the report? Yes.

3. Offerynnau sy’n cynnwys materion i gyflwyno adroddiad arnynt i’r Senedd o dan Reol Sefydlog 21.2 neu 21.3
3. Instruments that raise issues to be reported to the Senedd under Standing Order 21.2 or 21.3

Instruments that raise issues to be reported to the Senedd under Standing Order 21.2 or 21.3—made negative resolution instruments. The Education (Student Finance) (Fee Limit and Loan Amounts) (Miscellaneous Amendments) (Wales) Regulations 2025—paper 2, the draft report. These regulations amend existing regulations to, amongst other things, increase the full-time undergraduate tuition fee caps and increase the amount of tuition fee loans for academic years beginning on or after 1 August 2025. Senedd lawyers have identified one technical reporting point. A Welsh Government response has been requested. Kate, over to you. 

Thank you. The technical reporting point seeks further explanation from the Welsh Government as to why the term 'academic year' is not defined in these regulations when it has been defined in other similar regulations, and we're just waiting for the Welsh Government to respond.

13:05

Okay. Thank you very much. Any other comments? No.

The Education (Student Finance) (Amounts) (Miscellaneous Amendments) (Wales) Regulations 2025 draft report. These regulations amend various legislation to adjust amounts of undergraduate and postgraduate student support. These regulations also make corrections to historical errors that were previously identified by the committee in its report on the Education (Student Finance) (Amounts) (Miscellaneous Amendments) (Wales) Regulations 2024. However, this is not noted in section 2 of the explanatory memorandum, which is where matters of special interest to committee are highlighted. Senedd lawyers have identified one technical reporting point and three merits reporting points. A Welsh Government response has been requested. Over to you, Kate.

The technical reporting point here is the same as the point raised on the regulations that you've just considered—again, seeking further explanation from the Welsh Government as to why 'academic year' has not been defined. The first merits point notes that the explanatory note incorrectly states that no regulatory impact assessment has been carried out. The second merits point notes that no consultation has been carried out and also draws attention to certain paragraphs within the regulatory impact assessment, which set out the impact of using the consumer prices index as a measure of inflation. And then the final merits point is just noting that these regulations address those historic errors, but this hasn't been drawn to the committee's attention in section 2 of the explanatory memorandum, and we're waiting for the Welsh Government to respond.

Thanks, Kate. Do Members have anything to raise? No.

The affirmative resolution instrument: the Tertiary Education and Research (Wales) Act 2022 (Consequential Amendments) Regulations 2025 draft report. These regulations make amendments to legislation as a consequence of the commencement of paragraph 29 of Schedule 4 of the Tertiary Education and Research (Wales) Act 2022, which provides for amendments to the School Standards and Organisation (Wales) Act 2013. Those provisions relate to school reorganisations. Subject to the approval of these regulations, it is intended that paragraph 29 will be commenced on 5 April 2025, through the Tertiary Education and Research (Wales) Act 2022 (Commencement No. 5 and Transitory and Transitional Provisions) Order 2025 alongside these regulations. Senedd lawyers have identified one technical reporting point. A Welsh Government response has been received. Kate, would you like to take us through the reporting point?  

The technical point identifies that there is an error in the headnote to the instrument, and in response the Welsh Government acknowledges that this is a typographical error, but they note that the correct powers have been cited in the preamble, and the headnote will be removed when the regulations are made.

Thank you very much. Do Members have anything to add? No.

The Regulated Services (Inspection Ratings) (Wales) Regulations 2025 draft report. These regulations were previously laid on 25 January and withdrawn on 25 February, following this committee’s report. The regulations make provision about ratings given by the Welsh Ministers in relation to the quality of care and support provided by a service provider, following an inspection under Part 1 of the Regulation and Inspection of Social Care (Wales) Act 2016. They are due to come into force on 31 March 2025. Senedd lawyers have identified one technical reporting point and one merits reporting point. A Welsh Government response has been received. Again, over to you, Kate.

The technical reporting point notes that the regulations refer to the Minister and the Cabinet Secretary by incorrect titles in the signature block, but in response the Welsh Government confirms this will be corrected prior to the making of the regulations. The merits reporting point notes that the committee's report on the draft of these regulations, as originally laid, also raised a reporting point seeking further information, and so the draft report just sets out that further information that was provided in response to the previous draft report.

4. Offerynnau sy’n cynnwys materion i gyflwyno adroddiad arnynt i’r Senedd o dan Reol Sefydlog 21.2 neu 21.3—trafodwyd eisoes
4. Instruments that raise issues to be reported to the Senedd under Standing Order 21.2 or 21.3—previously considered

Item 4, instruments that raise issues to be reported to the Senedd under Standing Order 21.2 or 21.3—previously considered. The Bread and Flour (Wales) Regulations 2025. The committee considered this instrument at its meeting on 17 February and laid its report the next day. Members are invited to note the Welsh Government response to the report, which has since been received. Kate, do you have anything to raise from the Welsh Government response?  

Just to note that the Welsh Government intends to address the four of the technical reporting points through an omnibus amending instrument that they intend to bring forward before the summer recess.

Excuse me, Chair. With apologies, may I come in, please?

I think you may have inadvertently missed item 3.3.

I may indeed. If I have, apologies. I did indeed. Sorry. I'll go back to that. Returning to item 3.3, which I unfortunately missed, these regulations correct errors in the Agricultural Tenancies (Requests for Landlord’s Consent or Variation of Terms) (Wales) Regulations 2024 in response to matters reported on by this committee in its report on the 2024 regulations. Senedd lawyers have identified two technical reporting points and four merits reporting points. A Welsh Government response has been requested. Kate, do you have anything to add?

13:10

Both of the technical reporting points are identifying potentially defective drafting in amendments that are being made by these regulations. The first and second merits points are just noting how the regulations address reporting points raised by this committee in relation to the 2024 regulations. The third merits point notes that there has been a delay in making these regulations and asks the Welsh Government to explain the reasons for this, and also any practical impact that this might have had on anyone seeking to exercise rights under the regulations during the delay. And then the final merits point just notes that no consultation has been undertaken. So, we're waiting for the Welsh Government to respond on the technical point and the third merits point.

5. Cytundeb cysylltiadau rhyngsefydliadol
5. Inter-institutional relations agreement

Item 5 is notifications and correspondence under the inter-institutional relations agreement, correspondence from the Welsh Government on meetings of inter-ministerial groups. There's a letter from the Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Climate Change and Rural Affairs. The Deputy First Minister informs us that the meeting of the Inter-ministerial Group for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, which was scheduled to take place on 10 March, has been postponed, and he will update the committee if a new date is identified before the next scheduled meeting, which is due to take place on 12 May. Can we note that? Yes.

Item 5.2 is the correspondence and written statement by the Minister for Further and Higher Education on the Recognition of Overseas Qualifications (Charges) (England and Wales and Northern Ireland) Regulations 2025. The Minister for Further and Higher Education informs us that she has given consent for these regulations, which revoke and replace the Recognition of Overseas Qualifications (Charges) Regulations 2024, to apply to Wales. While the earlier regulations extended and applied to the whole of the UK, following discussions with the devolved Governments, the new instrument extends and applies only to England, Wales and Northern Ireland. Do Members have any comments? No.

Item 5.3 is the correspondence and written statement by the Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Climate Change and Rural Affairs on the Persistent Organic Pollutants (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations 2025. Members will recall that, in our meeting on 10 March, we considered a letter from the Deputy First Minister, in which he informed us of his intention to consent to the UK Government making these regulations, which amend the Persistent Organic Pollutants (Amendment) Regulations 2024, to provide limited exemptions to the prohibition on the uses of certain types of flame retardant and ultraviolet inhibitors. The Deputy First Minister confirms that he has now given his consent for these regulations to apply to Wales and that these regulations were laid on 11 March and will come into force on 1 April 2025. 

6. Papurau i’w nodi
6. Papers to note

Item 6 is papers to note, and the correspondence with the Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Climate Change and Rural Affairs on the Disused Mine and Quarry Tips (Wales) Bill. The Deputy First Minister responds to our request for further information following his attendance at our committee meeting on 10 February 2025 to discuss the Disused Mine and Quarry Tips (Wales) Bill. The Deputy First Minister also provides copies of summary guidance, which he says provides,

'a broad outline of the key areas which will be covered in guidance, together with an indication of policy direction.'

The committee will be considering its draft report on the Bill in private session later this afternoon. Do Members have any comments to make at this stage? No.

The written statement by the Cabinet Secretary for Education, and the Minister for Children and Social Care on the Children's Wellbeing and Schools Bill. The Cabinet Secretary and Minister state that the UK Government introduced the Children's Wellbeing and Schools Bill in December 2024 and that it applied to England only on introduction. They state that although education and social care policy and decisions are devolved in Wales,

'it is important that when government principles align on such important matters, we work together to achieve the desired outcomes.'

As such, they confirm that the Welsh Government has asked that certain provisions within the Bill be applied to Wales in the same way as England. The areas within the Bill that will apply to Wales are those that relate to children in secure accommodation, the extension of the offence of ill-treatment of a child by a care worker to cover 16 and 17-year-olds, and children not in school. The Cabinet Secretary and Minister further state that, subject to agreement with the UK Government, other areas of the Bill may be included at a later stage. The Bill is due to start its Report Stage in the House of Commons today. The next stage is the Third Reading before the Bill goes to the House of Lords. The written statement makes no reference to the legislative consent process. Do Members want to discuss it now or do they want to defer it until we go into private session? We'll defer it until our private session.

The Welsh Government's response to the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee’s report on the Welsh Government's legislative consent memorandum on the Renters’ Rights Bill. Members are invited to note the Welsh Government’s response to the committee’s report on the Welsh Government's legislative consent memorandum on the Renters’ Rights Bill. Do Members have any comments they wish to make? If not, we’ll move on to the next item.

13:15
7. Cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.42 i benderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y cyfarfod
7. Motion under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting

Cynnig:

bod y pwyllgor yn penderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y cyfarfod yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 17.42(vi).

Motion:

that the committee resolves to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting in accordance with Standing Order 17.42(vi).

Cynigiwyd y cynnig.

Motion moved.

Item 7 is a motion under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting. In accordance with Standing Order 17.42, I invite the committee to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting. Do Members agree? Yes. 

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Daeth rhan gyhoeddus y cyfarfod i ben am 13:15.

Motion agreed.

The public part of the meeting ended at 13:15.