Y Pwyllgor Plant, Pobl Ifanc ac Addysg
Children, Young People and Education Committee
13/03/2025Aelodau'r Pwyllgor a oedd yn bresennol
Committee Members in Attendance
| Buffy Williams | Cadeirydd y Pwyllgor |
| Committee Chair | |
| Carolyn Thomas | |
| Cefin Campbell | |
| Joel James | |
| Natasha Asghar | |
| Vaughan Gething | |
Y rhai eraill a oedd yn bresennol
Others in Attendance
| Dona Lewis | Prif Weithredwr, y Ganolfan Dysgu Cymraeg Genedlaethol |
| Chief Executive, National Centre for Learning Welsh | |
| Dr Gwennan Schiavone | Prif Weithredwr, Cymdeithas Ysgolion Dros Addysg Gymraeg |
| Chief Executive, Cymdeithas Ysgolion Dros Addysg Gymraeg | |
| Dr Ioan Matthews | Prif Weithredwr, Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol |
| Chief Executive, Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol | |
| Faith O'Brian | Rheolwr gyfarwyddwr, Hyfforddiant Cambrian |
| Managing Director, Cambrian Training | |
| Gwenllian Owen | Uwch-reolwr Addysg Uwch, Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol |
| Senior Manager for Higher Education, Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol | |
| Jude Holloway | Rheolwr gyfarwyddwr, Grŵp Hyfforddi Educ8 |
| Managing Director, Educ8 Training Group | |
| Matthew McAvoy | Arweinydd Uwchradd, Cymdeithas Ysgolion Dros Addysg Gymraeg |
| Secondary Leader, Cymdeithas Ysgolion Dros Addysg Gymraeg |
Swyddogion y Senedd a oedd yn bresennol
Senedd Officials in Attendance
| Claire Thomas | Ymchwilydd |
| Researcher | |
| Jennifer Cottle | Cynghorydd Cyfreithiol |
| Legal Adviser | |
| Lucy Morgan | Ymchwilydd |
| Researcher | |
| Manon Huws | Cynghorydd Cyfreithiol |
| Legal Adviser | |
| Michael Dauncey | Ymchwilydd |
| Researcher | |
| Naomi Stocks | Clerc |
| Clerk | |
| Sarah Bartlett | Dirprwy Glerc |
| Deputy Clerk | |
| Sian Thomas | Ymchwilydd |
| Researcher | |
| Tom Lewis-White | Ail Glerc |
| Second Clerk |
Cynnwys
Contents
Cofnodir y trafodion yn yr iaith y llefarwyd hwy ynddi yn y pwyllgor. Yn ogystal, cynhwysir trawsgrifiad o’r cyfieithu ar y pryd. Lle mae cyfranwyr wedi darparu cywiriadau i’w tystiolaeth, nodir y rheini yn y trawsgrifiad.
The proceedings are reported in the language in which they were spoken in the committee. In addition, a transcription of the simultaneous interpretation is included. Where contributors have supplied corrections to their evidence, these are noted in the transcript.
Cyfarfu’r pwyllgor yn y Senedd a thrwy gynhadledd fideo.
Dechreuodd y cyfarfod am 09:31.
The committee met in the Senedd and by video-conference.
The meeting began at 09:31.
Welcome to today's meeting of the Children, Young People and Education Committee. The public items of this meeting are being broadcast live on Senedd.tv. The Record of Proceedings will be published as usual. The meeting is bilingual and simultaneous translation from Welsh to English is available. Are there any declarations of interest from Members? No, I can see there are not.
We move on now to agenda item 2, which is the seventh evidence session for this inquiry on routes into post-16 education and training. I'm very pleased to welcome Dona Lewis, chief executive, National Centre for Learning Welsh; Dr Ioan Matthews, chief executive, Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol; Gwenllian Owen, senior manager for higher education, Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol; Dr Gwennan Schiavone—have I said that right?—chief executive officer, CYDAG.
I will now start with the first questions, and I'll hand over to Carolyn Thomas, please.
Diolch. Bore da. Dwi'n dysgu Cymraeg; dwi'n siarad Saesneg.
Thank you. Good morning. I am learning Welsh, but I will ask my questions in English.
I hope that's okay. To what extent do you think impartial advice is available to learners in schools about the options available to them if they wish to study through the medium of Welsh after year 11? And when I say 'learners', also parents, because I think parents have a lot of influence as well.
Ie. Fe wnaf i ddechrau, efallai, drwy ymateb, ac fe wnaf i ymateb yn Gymraeg.
Felly, mae llwyth o wybodaeth yn cael ei rannu gyda dysgwyr a phobl ifanc wrth iddyn nhw wneud penderfyniadau, ac unigolion sy'n dychwelyd i addysg fel myfyrwyr aeddfed. A'r hyn sy'n bwysig, dwi'n credu, yw bod angen cysondeb o ran y negeseuon sy'n cael eu cyfleu. Mae dysgwyr yn derbyn llwyth o wybodaeth, felly mae angen negeseuon clir i gael eu cyfathrebu ar gyfer dysgwyr.
Rydyn ni wedi gwneud arolwg yn ddiweddar o ryw 500 o ddisgyblion chweched dosbarth ac, yn eu hymateb nhw, yr hyn oedd yn glir i ni oedd bod 90 y cant ohonyn nhw yn gwybod ac yn deall bod sgiliau Cymraeg yn werthfawr iddyn nhw wrth fynd ymlaen i'r gweithle, ond, er gwaethaf hynny, dim ond rhyw 32 y cant oedd yn ystyried parhau gyda'u hastudiaethau nhw trwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg yn y brifysgol. Felly, mae'n bwysig eu bod nhw'n derbyn y wybodaeth gywir ar yr adeg gywir ac yn gyson.
Ar yr un pryd, mae un o'n darlithwyr cysylltiol ni, Dr Rebecca Ward, yn mynd i fod yn cyhoeddi ymchwil cyn bo hir sy'n dangos bod myfyrwyr sy'n astudio trwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg yn derbyn canlyniadau gwell na myfyrwyr sy'n astudio trwy gyfrwng y Saesneg yn unig. Felly, mae yna fudd i'r dysgwyr, ac mae angen cyfleu hynny'n glir i'r myfyrwyr, a hynny trwy gynnig gwybodaeth wedi'i deilwra i'r dysgwyr, a hefyd wybodaeth, efallai, ar lefel personol. Un o'r prosiectau cyffrous sydd gyda ni ar hyn o bryd yn y sector addysg uwch yw prosiect hyrwyddwyr y Gymraeg. Felly, rydyn ni'n peilota hwnna ar hyn o bryd, ac mae hwnna'n cynnig model posib ar gyfer y sector ôl-16 yn ei gyfanrwydd ac yn cynnig cyfle i weithio gyda grwpiau o unigolion ac i gynnig cefnogaeth a gwybodaeth iddyn nhw i'w galluogi nhw i wneud y penderfyniadau gwybodus yna. Felly, yn sicr, dwi'n credu bod y wybodaeth yna'n hanfodol.
Yes. I'll start, perhaps, by responding, and I'll respond in Welsh.
So, a great deal of information is shared with learners and young people as they decide their futures and individuals returning to education as mature students. What's important, I think, is that there needs to be consistency in terms of the messages that are conveyed. Learners do receive a great deal of information, so we need clear messages to be communicated to those learners.
We undertook a survey recently of around 500 sixth-form pupils and, in their responses, what became clear to us was that 90 per cent of them knew and understood that Welsh language skills are valuable to them in entering the workplace, but despite that, only around 32 per cent were considering continuing their studies through the medium of Welsh at university. So, it is important that they receive information that is correct and accurate at the right time and on a consistent basis.
At the same time, one of our associate lecturers, Dr Rebecca Ward, is going to be publishing research soon that demonstrates that students who study through the medium of Welsh receive better results than those who study through the medium of English only. So, there is a benefit to the learner and we need to convey that clearly to the students by providing tailored information for the learner and, then, information on a personalised level. One of the exciting projects that we have currently in the higher education sector is the Welsh language champions programme. We're piloting that at the moment, and that provides a possible model for the post-16 sector as a whole, and it provides an opportunity to work with groups of individuals and to provide support and information to them to enable them to make informed decisions. So, certainly, I think that that information is crucial.
Gwennan.
Dwi’n meddwl mai beth sy'n bwysig ei nodi ydy bod ysgolion yn rhoi o’u gorau i roi’r gefnogaeth a'r arweiniad a'r wybodaeth yn y ffordd fwyaf diduedd a chyflawn i'w dysgwyr nhw. Maen nhw'n amlwg yn nabod eu dysgwyr nhw yn well nag unrhyw un arall, ar ôl treulio pedair, pum mlynedd cyn eu bod nhw'n dechrau cael y math yna o gyngor a gwybodaeth ar lwybrau astudio a llwybrau gyrfaol ac yn y blaen, ac, yn amlwg, mae'r elfen o ran sgiliau Cymraeg yn rhan annatod o fywyd ac ethos a chenhadaeth unrhyw ysgol cyfrwng Cymraeg a dwyieithog.
Dwi'n meddwl mai beth rydyn ni'n ei weld yw bod beth mae'r ysgol yn gallu ei ddarparu yn mynd i gael ei gyfyngu gan amser ac adnoddau a chapasiti, fel popeth arall. Yn fanna wedyn, yn amlwg, mae yna wasgfa. Ond dwi'n meddwl mai beth rydyn ni'n gallu ei ddweud yn sicr ydy bod yr hyn mae'r ysgolion yn ei ddarparu, er efallai yn anghyson—yn dibynnu ar yr arbenigedd, y diddordeb, y wybodaeth, a'r holl ffactorau hynny—yn ddiduedd, yn gefnogol ac yn ysgogol, gyda budd y dysgwr wrth wraidd yr hyn y maen nhw'n ei ddarparu, beth bynnag ydy'r cyngor a’r arweiniad hynny y maen nhw'n eu rhoi i'w dysgwyr nhw.
I think what's important to note is that schools do their best to provide guidance and support and information in the most impartial and comprehensive way possible to their learners. Clearly, they know their learners better than anyone, having spent four or five years in education before they start to receive that information on study pathways and career pathways. And, clearly, the element around Welsh language skills are an integral part and ethos and mission of any Welsh-medium and bilingual school.
I think what we do see is that what the school can provide will be limited by time, resources and capacity, like everything else. Clearly, there are pressures in that regard. But what we can say with some certainty is that what the schools do provide, although it may be inconsistent—depending on areas of expertise, the interest and information available—is impartial, supportive and motivating, and it has the interest of the learner at the heart of everything that they provide, whatever advice and guidance they do provide to their learners.
O ran eich pwynt chi ynglŷn â rhieni wedyn, yn amlwg, mae'r ysgolion yn gwneud tipyn o waith ymgysylltu gyda'r rhieni hefyd, ond efallai fod ysgolion yn teimlo, wrth i ddisgyblion fynd drwy lwybr addysgiadol, fod y gefnogaeth yna gan rieni tuag at addysg cyfrwng Cymraeg ac opsiynau cyfrwng Cymraeg efallai yn mynd yn wannach wrth i blant fynd yn hŷn, ac felly mae'r ysgolion yn gwneud cymaint ag y maen nhw'n gallu i ddarbwyllo rhieni o bwysigrwydd y llwybrau gyrfaol ac addysgiadol ôl-14, ôl-16, addysg uwch. Ond efallai fod yna ddarn o waith i'w wneud yn fanna lle gallwn ni gael ychydig mwy o help cenedlaethol, efallai, i hyrwyddo pwysigrwydd yr addysg yna ar gyfer rhieni, efallai, lle, os oes yna ddewis i wneud cwrs yn Saesneg neu Gymraeg, weithiau efallai y byddai’r rhieni’n gweld mwy o werth i berswadio eu plant nhw i'w wneud e drwy gyfrwng y Saesneg a ddim cweit yn deall hynny. Felly, mae'r ysgolion yn gwneud popeth maen nhw'n gallu, ond byddai help ychwanegol o'r tu allan i helpu ysgolion gyda hynny hefyd yn werthfawr iawn.
In terms of your point regarding parents, clearly, the schools do a great deal of engagement work with parents too, but perhaps schools feel that, as pupils go through their educational journey, that the support from parents towards Welsh-medium education and Welsh-medium options perhaps tails off as pupils get older. So, schools are doing as much as they can to convince the parents of the importance of the career and educational pathways post 14, post 16 and in higher education, and so on. But perhaps there is a piece of work to be done there where we could get more national support to promote the importance of that education amongst parents too. So, if there is a choice to study a course through the medium of English or Welsh, perhaps parents might perceive more value in persuading their children to do it through the medium of English without understanding the ramifications. Schools are doing all they can, but external help to support them with that would be very valuable.
My second question was about promoting the benefits, and do you think enough has been done about promoting the benefits. So, what more—
Carolyn, Dona wanted to come in here, if that's okay.
Pwynt ychydig yn wahanol, efallai, o'n hochr ni, ond dwi'n meddwl bod yna ystyriaeth yma ynglŷn â’r continwwm ieithyddol, ac efallai fod hynny weithiau'n gallu bod yn rhwystr i bobl ifanc wrth dderbyn y cyngor, ac mae'n hollbwysig ystyried effaith y Bil addysg a'r Gymraeg newydd sy'n cael ei drafod ar hyn o bryd a'r potensial, dwi'n meddwl, sydd yn dod o'r Bil i gael un continwwm ieithyddol clir ar hyd oes unrhyw un ohonon ni sydd yn dysgu. Mae o'n rhoi cyfle i gael un ffordd gyffredin i adnabod sgiliau ac adeiladu sgiliau pobl ifanc, ac rydyn ni'n gweld ar hyn o bryd fod yna rywfaint o rwystrau yn y rhaglen sydd gyda ni, yn y rhaglen 16 i 24 oed, lle mae pobl yn gadael addysg a ddim yn hollol glir ynglŷn â beth yw eu sgiliau nhw, beth yw’r sgiliau trosglwyddadwy i mewn i addysg ôl-16 ac wedyn, yn amlwg, i mewn i waith hefyd. Felly, dwi'n meddwl, yn sicr, fod angen i ni edrych i'r dyfodol, tuag at y Bil, efallai, a'r cod a'r continwwm, a'r potensial mae'r rheini'n rhoi i fod yn fwy cydlynus, efallai, o ran gwybodaeth i bobl ifanc wrth iddyn nhw adael addysg a symud i ôl-16.
It's a slightly different point from our perspective, but I do think that there is consideration here as regards the linguistic continuum, and perhaps that can be a barrier for young people when they do receive advice, and it's crucial to consider the impact of the new Welsh language and education Bill that's currently being discussed, and the potential of that Bill to have a single, clear linguistic continuum throughout the learner's life. It provides an opportunity to have one common approach to identify and build the skills of young people, and we're seeing at the moment that there are some barriers in our programme for the 16 to 24 age group, where people leave education and aren't entirely clear as to what their skills are and what are their transferable skills into post-16 education and then into the workplace. So, I certainly think that we need to look to the future, look at the ramifications of the Bill, and look at the code and the continuum, and the potential for those to be more co-ordinated in providing information to young people as they leave education and move into the post-16 sector.
Ioan, would you like to come in?
Ie, ag un peth i ychwanegu, efallai, o ran y gwaith cynghori a sicrhau bod gwybodaeth gyflawn yn cael ei throsglwyddo. Yn sicr, mae pwynt Dona yn un pwysig iawn o ran cynllunio at y dyfodol. O ran y tymor byr, mae'r coleg a CYDAG, ar hyn o bryd, wedi sefydlu grŵp sydd yn trafod yr union fater yma, sef sut i wella y cyswllt a'r cyngor sy'n cael ei ddarparu. Felly, byddwn i'n gobeithio y bydd ffrwyth y trafodaethau yna i’w weld yn fuan.
Yes, with one thing to add, perhaps, in terms of the advisory work and ensuring that comprehensive information is shared. Certainly, the point made by Dona is very important in terms of planning for the future. In terms of the shorter term, the coleg and CYDAG, at the moment, have established a group that is discussing this issue, namely how to improve the engagement and the advice provided. So, I'd hope that the fruits of those discussions will be seen very soon.
Yn sicr, a dwi'n meddwl mai’r peth ydy bod ysgolion, fel dwi'n dweud, yn gwneud y gorau maen nhw'n gallu ei wneud efo’r adnoddau sydd ganddyn nhw. Mae'r holl gysyniad o bwysigrwydd a gwerth addysg Gymraeg, sgiliau Cymraeg yn y gweithle, yn academaidd, yn gymdeithasol, ac yn y blaen, yn rhan o ethos a chenhadaeth ysgolion cyfrwng Cymraeg a dwyieithog, fel dwi'n dweud. Ond mae yna elfen ychwanegol, yn amlwg, o gymorth i gael ei chwistrellu i mewn ysgolion, a hynny yw cymorth cyrff allanol sy'n gallu dod â'r negeseuon cenedlaethol yna, y dadleuon rhyngwladol, manteision hynny. Rydych chi’n gallu rhoi’r cyngor a’r wybodaeth yna sy’n mynd tu hwnt i ardal ddaearyddol yr ysgol hefyd. Achos mae’n un peth bod bywyd yr ysgol yn hyrwyddo hynna, ond rydyn ni’n gwybod beth mae arddegwyr fel, a fel maen nhw’n gweld y tu hwnt i’r hyn sydd o’u cwmpas nhw. Felly mae cael y mewnbwn allanol yna, y dysgu o brofiadau y tu hwnt i’w hardal ac yn y blaen, yn allweddol, dwi’n meddwl. Ac, yn amlwg, yn fanna mae cydweithio ar ei gryfaf wedyn, lle rydyn ni’n elwa ar arbenigedd ein gilydd a gallu ein gilydd i gyrraedd y cynulleidfaoedd yna.
Certainly, and I think the thing is that, as I say, schools are doing the best that they can with the resources available, but the whole concept of the importance and value of Welsh-medium education and Welsh language skills in the workplace, academically and socially, and so on, is all part of the ethos and mission of Welsh-medium and bilingual schools, as I say. But there is an additional support element, of course, which could be provided to schools, and that's external bodies that can bring those national messages, the international approach too. They can provide that information and advice that goes beyond the geographical area of the school. Because it’s one thing that the school life promotes that ethos, but we know what teenagers are like, and that they look beyond what’s in their immediate area. So, having that external input, and learning from experiences beyond their local areas, is important. And, clearly, that’s where co-operation is at its strongest, where we benefit from each other’s expertise and our ability to reach those audiences.
May I ask one tiny question, Chair, an extra one? Do you feel that culture is a really important influence when learning the Welsh language, and growing it as well? So, being part of that culture.
Gyda iaith leiafrifol, mae hi wastad yn mynd i fod yn her, onid ydy? Mae yna bethau gwych am fod yn iaith leiafrifol, sy’n ei gwneud hi’n wahanol ac yn unigryw, ac mae’r holl bethau cyffrous hynny o gwmpas yr iaith a’r diwylliant. Yr her barhaus sydd gennym ni, wrth gwrs, ydy bod yna iaith arall, llawer cryfach, yn ail iaith o fewn ein gwlad ni. Ac felly, mae’r her a’r frwydr yna’n barhaus. Ac, wrth gwrs, gyda thechnoleg yn hawlio bywydau ein pobl ifanc ni, dydy’r Gymraeg efallai ddim yn gallu cadw i fyny gyda’r holl ddylanwadau hynny trwy gyfrwng y Saesneg ac unrhyw iaith arall.
Dwi’n meddwl bod llawer yn cael ei wneud ar hyn o bryd. Yn sicr, rydyn ni’n gweld datblygiadau cyffrous o ran pethau gwahanol ar blatfformau gwahanol er mwyn trio cyrraedd y cynulleidfaoedd yna. Dwi’n meddwl beth rydyn ni wastad angen ei wneud ydy mynd yn ôl at y bobl ifanc yna a pheidio â meddwl ein bod ni’n gwybod beth maen nhw eisiau clywed, neu pa blatfformau maen nhw’n eu defnyddio, neu pwy ydy’r bobl sy’n gallu dylanwadu arnyn nhw. Mae’n rhaid i ni siarad efo’n pobl ifanc ni mewn ffordd hollol wrthrychol ac agored i glywed, 'Sut ydyn ni’n eich cyrraedd chi? Sut ydyn ni’n cyflwyno'r negeseuon?' Dydyn ni ddim yn gallu cystadlu efo’r byd enfawr o’n cwmpas ni, ond mae yna bethau rydyn ni’n gallu eu gwneud o fewn ein gwlad, ac felly mae’n rhaid i ni wrando ar lais pobl ifanc yn hynny o beth.
As a minority language, it’s always going to be a challenge, isn’t it? There are excellent things about being a minority language that make it different and unique, and all of those exciting things around the language and culture. But the ongoing challenge, of course, is that there is another, much stronger language, a second language, within our nation. So, that challenge is ongoing. And, certainly, in terms of technology taking over the lives of our young people, the Welsh language can’t, perhaps, keep up with all of the influences through the medium of English, or any other language.
I think that a great deal is being done at the moment. Certainly, we’re seeing exciting developments in terms of different things on different platforms to try to reach those audiences. But I think what we always need to do is to go back to these young people, not thinking that we know what they want to hear, what platforms they use, or who are the people who can influence them. We have to speak to the young people themselves, in a very objective and open way, to hear, 'How do we reach you? How do we present these messages?' We can’t compete with the huge world around us, but there are things that we can do within our nation. So, we need to listen to the voice of young people in that regard.
Thank you. I think Dona wanted to come in here.
Byddwn i’n cytuno’n llwyr efo Gwennan. Mae yna lwyth yn digwydd yn barod o ran diwylliant Cymraeg. Mae’n ddiwylliant mor gyfoethog, wrth gwrs, ond dwi’n meddwl beth mae’n rhaid i ni ei wneud ydy treiddio trwy daith bywyd pobl ifanc yn llwyr, a meddwl am eu hymwneud nhw o ran hamdden, chwarae pêl-droed, chwaraeon. Mae yna le i ddylanwadu, dwi’n meddwl, ar benderfyniadau pobl ifanc y tu hwnt i addysg hefyd. Ond dwi’n gwybod bod yna lwyth yn digwydd yn y maes yma, ac mae’n bwysig i ni fod yn ystyried hynny ochr yn ochr, dwi’n meddwl, gydag unrhyw ddewis ffurfiol sydd yn cael ei drafod gyda nhw. Mae cerddoriaeth Gymraeg yn iach ac yn ffynnu, ac mae’n rhaid i ni gofio bod hyn i gyd yn dylanwadu ar ddewisiadau pobl ifanc.
I’d agree entirely with Gwennan. There is a great deal happening already in terms of Welsh culture. It’s such a rich culture, of course, but I think what we must do is to permeate through young people’s life journey, and to think about their engagement in leisure, be it playing football, other sports. There is room to influence the decisions of young people beyond education too. But I know that there is a great deal happening in that area already, and it’s important for us to consider that alongside any formal options or choices that are discussed with young people. Welsh language music is healthy and prosperous, and we must bear in mind that this all has an influence on the choices made by young people.
Thank you. We now have questions from Joel, please.
Thank you, Chair, and thanks ever so much for coming in this morning. I just wanted to ask a quick question, if I may. It’s probably mainly aimed at the coleg Cymraeg, but I’d be keen to know everyone else’s opinion on that. It’s just something you submitted in your written evidence. You mentioned here that the current post-16 education funding formulas encourage competition rather than collaboration, and this can lead to promotion activity that prioritises the interests of individual providers rather than the interests of the learner. And you mention that this is something that Estyn have also picked up on. I’m just wondering if you could provide some examples of that, if you’ve got any there, and also, why it’s come about. Is it necessarily a negative thing to have that competition? But also, if it is, what can be done about it, or, more importantly, I suppose, who should be doing something about it?
Diolch yn fawr iawn ichi. Mae hwnna’n gwestiwn amserol iawn, achos ddoe fe gyhoeddwyd cynllun strategol Medr. Yn y cynllun hwnnw, yn dilyn ymgynghori a chyngor gan y coleg fel y corff sydd wedi ei bennu i gynghori Medr ar ei ddyletswyddau mewn perthynas â’r Gymraeg, mae yna ymrwymiad i greu cynllun cenedlaethol ar gyfer darpariaeth Gymraeg yn y sector trydyddol. Ac o ran y sector trydyddol, rŷn ni’n golygu addysg uwch, addysg bellach, prentisiaethau a darpariaeth chweched dosbarth. Mae’r cynllun yma a fydd yn cael ei ddatblygu nawr yn ystod y flwyddyn nesaf yn gyfle arbennig i fynd i’r afael â rhai o’r heriau sy’n wynebu'r sectorau ar hyn o bryd, ond hefyd i adeiladu ar yr hyn sydd wedi cael ei gyflawni yn y blynyddoedd diweddar.
I fynd yn ôl at eich cwestiwn chi, un o’r pethau sy’n bwysig o ran dysgwyr yw bod yna opsiynau a dewisiadau clir ar eu cyfer nhw, ac er mwyn darparu hynny, yr hyn sydd ei angen yw cynllunio effeithiol, boed hynny yn genedlaethol neu yn rhanbarthol, i sicrhau bod y ddarpariaeth yn cael ei chynnig i'r dysgwyr yn y ffordd orau ac yn y mannau gorau ar eu cyfer nhw. Mae'r niferoedd sy'n astudio drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg yn amlwg yn llai na sy'n astudio trwy gyfrwng y Saesneg, ac mae yna heriau hefyd yn y system gyllido, oherwydd mae honno yn system sydd wedi ei chreu lle mae'r cyllid yn dilyn y dysgwr. Felly, mae'r cyllid sy'n dilyn grwpiau cyfrwng Cymraeg o reidrwydd yn fach. Felly, os oes yna nifer o grwpiau bach mewn lot o fannau gwahanol, yn hytrach na bod darpariaeth yn cael ei chronni gorau posib yn y man lle mae hi gryfach, yna mae'r system gyllido yn milwrio yn erbyn nid yn unig buddiannau'r dysgwyr ond hefyd y llwybr a'r cynllunio bwriadus yna sydd ei angen er mwyn cynyddu'r niferoedd sy'n astudio drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg.
Felly, pwynt cyffredinol ydy e, yn hytrach nag un lle mae yna enghreifftiau. Mae yna enghreifftiau anecdotaidd, ond dyw'r rheina ddim bob amser yn helpu i fynd i'r afael â'r broblem. Ond rwy'n credu os gallwn ni edrych ar y dyfodol a'r hyn sydd ei angen, yr hyn sydd ei angen o ran y Gymraeg ydy bod darpariaeth o bob math ar gael drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg, boed hwnna yn ddarpariaeth addysg uwch, yn ddarpariaeth alwedigaethol, yn ddarpariaeth prentisiaethau, yn ddarpariaeth safon uwch, ac mae hwnna yn gallu cael ei ddarparu gan wahanol fathau o ddarparwyr a gwahanol fathau o sefydliadau. Ond mae angen i'r sefydliadau yna gydweithio hefyd er mwyn sicrhau bod y dewisiadau sy'n cael eu rhoi i'r dysgwyr y gorau posib.
Felly, dyna'r cynllun, ond mae e yng nghyd-destun beth sydd angen ei wneud wrth symud ymlaen, ac mae sefydlu Medr a dod â'r gwahanol sectorau at ei gilydd, wrth gwrs, o ganlyniad i hynny, yn gam bwriadus, rwy'n credu, i fynd i'r afael â rhai o'r problemau hanesyddol yma ac i gyflwyno yng Nghymru trefn drydyddol sydd yn llawer mwy cydlynus ac yn bwydo i mewn nid yn unig i ofynion yr economi a'r gweithlu a datblygu gweithlu, ond hefyd i ofynion y dysgwyr.
Thank you very much. That’s a very timely question, because yesterday the strategic plan for Medr was published. In that plan, following on from the consultation and advice received by the coleg as the designated body advising Medr on its duties with regard to the Welsh language, there is a commitment to create a national plan for Welsh-medium provision in the tertiary sector. And in terms of the tertiary sector, we mean further education, higher education, apprenticeships and sixth-form provision. This plan that will be developed now over the coming year is an opportunity for us to tackle some of the challenges facing the sectors at the moment, but also to build on what has already been achieved in recent years.
To go back to your specific question, one of the things that is important in terms of learners is that there are clear options available to them, and to provide that what we need is effective planning, be that on a national basis or on a regional basis, to ensure that the provision is offered to the learners in the best way and in the best places for them. The numbers studying through the medium of Welsh clearly are lower than those studying through the medium of English, and there are also challenges in the funding system, because that is a system that has been created where the funding follows the learner. So, the funding that follows Welsh-medium groups, out of necessity, is smaller. So, if there are a number of small groups in many different places, rather than provision being centralised where it is strongest, then the funding system militates against not just the interests of the learner but also the pathway and the intentional planning needed to increase the numbers studying through the medium of Welsh.
So, it's a general point, rather than one where there are specific examples. There are anecdotal examples, but they don't always help to tackle the root problem. But if we can look at the future and what is needed, what is needed in terms of the Welsh language is that provision of all kinds is available through the medium of Welsh, be that higher education, vocational provision, apprenticeships, A-level provision and so on, and that can be provided by different kinds of providers and different kinds of organisations and institutions. But those institutions need to collaborate too, to ensure that the choices that are available to the learner are the very best possible choices.
So, that's the plan, but it's in the context of what needs to be done in moving forward, and establishing Medr and bringing the different sectors together, of course, as a result of that, is a very deliberate step to tackle some of these historical problems and to introduce in Wales a tertiary system that is far better co-ordinated and feeds in, not just in terms of the needs of the economy and workforce development, but the needs of the learner.
Rwy'n credu ei bod hi'n wir i ddweud bod ysgolion yn teimlo eu bod nhw o dan anfantais mawr gyda'r gystadleuaeth yma sydd rhwng darparwyr ôl-16, oherwydd yn amlwg rŷch chi'n cystadlu efo'r un gynulleidfa. Yr ysgolion sydd efallai wedi dysgu'r disgyblion yma ar hyd y ffordd. A wedyn pan rŷch chi'n colli'r disgyblion yna wedyn o addysg cyfrwng Cymraeg, lle maen nhw'n cael eu trochi yn y Gymraeg, lle maen nhw'n cael eu paratoi ar gyfer y cam nesaf, ar gyfer y gweithlu yn y Gymraeg, a hefyd y cyrsiau yna mae ysgolion cyfrwng Cymraeg yn gorfod ariannu, serch niferoedd isel, i wneud yn siŵr bod yna unigolion yn rhan o'r cyflenwad yna ar gyfer y gweithlu addysg, mae ysgolion wir yn teimlo eu bod nhw o dan anfantais gyda'r gystadleuaeth yna.
I think it's true to say that schools feel that they are disadvantaged by this competition between post-16 providers, because clearly you're after the same audience. The schools perhaps have taught these pupils throughout their educational career. And when you lose those pupils then from Welsh-medium education, where they are immersed in the Welsh language, and they are prepared for the next stage in terms of entering the Welsh-speaking workforce, and also those courses that Welsh-medium schools do have to fund, despite low numbers, in order to ensure that there are individuals as part of that workforce supply, schools really do feel that they are disadvantaged by that competition.
Os caf i ddod i mewn yn fanna, dwi'n meddwl os byddwn i'n bod yn gwbl onest, dyma un o'r prif heriau neu un o'r brif pryderon sydd gan ein hysgolion uwchradd cyfrwng Cymraeg a dwyieithog ni ar hyn o bryd. Mae chweched dosbarth mewn sefyllfa fregus iawn. Mae ysgolion mewn sefyllfa fregus iawn oherwydd y cyllidebau sydd ar gael i ysgolion yn gyffredinol, ac yn fwy, felly, ar lefel y chweched dosbarth, yn amlwg, lle mae'r niferoedd yn is. Ac yn groes i egwyddor ysgol, pan mae penderfyniadau yn cael eu gyrru gan gyllid a rhifau ar bapur, mae e'n creu her i ysgolion.
Dwi'n meddwl mai'r broblem sydd gennym ni ydy nad ydy hi'n level playing field. Felly, tra ein bod ni eisiau llwybrau cyfrwng Cymraeg a chyn gymaint o Gymraeg a darpariaeth ddwyieithog ag sydd yn bosib ym mhob un sector, y llwybrau gorau, y dilyniant gorau i bob dysgwr rydyn ni ei eisiau ar ddiwedd y dydd. Ond mae'r tir cystadlu yna mor anghyfartal o safbwynt cyllid, lle mae'n bosib cael grantiau allanol, lle mae'n bosib cael nawdd allanol ac yn y blaen, lle mae ysgolion o reidrwydd o dan anfantais.
Dwi'n meddwl beth sydd hefyd yn bwysig inni fod yn meddwl amdano ydy ein bod ni eisiau gweld y datblygiadau yma ym mhob sector. Rydym ni eisiau darpariaeth ddwyieithog. Rydym ni eisiau darpariaeth Gymraeg. Ond beth sy'n allweddol ydy nad yw hynny ar draul darpariaeth mewn sector arall. Dwi'n meddwl bod yna bryderon mewn ambell i le neu ambell i gyd-destun lle mae yna ddatblygiadau cyffrous efallai yn digwydd mewn un sefydliad, ond efallai beth rydyn ni'n ei wneud mewn gwirionedd ydy symud dysgwyr o un lle i le arall, ac os nad ydy'r ddarpariaeth yna yn gyflawn wedyn o ran cyfrwng Cymraeg, yn anffodus, beth rydyn ni'n ei weld ydy llithro am yn ôl, wedyn, o ran defnydd iaith y dysgwyr yna. Ond dwi'n dweud hwnna fel dyma'r her sydd gennym ni, ond dwi'n meddwl mai dyma lle mae'r cyfle hefyd.
Fel roedd Ioan yn cyfeirio ato rŵan, o ran y cynllun o safbwynt darpariaeth Cymraeg yng nghyd-destun gwaith Medr, yn amlwg, mae'r newidiadau yn frawychus ar sawl gwedd o'r hyn sy'n digwydd yn y sector ôl-16. Yn y fan yma, mae yna gyfle i edrych o ddifrif ar yr heriau sydd yn wynebu ysgolion â chweched dosbarth. Rydyn ni'n gwybod pa mor bwysig ydy'r chweched dosbarth i fywyd yr ysgol, pa mor bwysig ydy o o ran dilyniant mewn addysg Gymraeg, mor bwysig ydy o o ran dilyniant yn y defnydd o sgiliau Cymraeg drwodd i addysg uwch neu i yrfaoedd ac yn y blaen. Felly, rydyn ni'n gwybod bod yna bwysigrwydd a gwerth i'r chweched dosbarth, ond beth sydd gennym ni ydy heriau cyllidol yn milwrio yn erbyn hynny. Ac felly, pan fyddwn ni, gobeithio, yn cyfrannu at ddatblygu'r cynllun yna, beth fyddwn ni'n gallu gwneud ydy sicrhau bod yna fformwlâu cyllido sy'n deg, bod yna gynllunio sydd yn deg ac yn rhesymol, a bod yna gydweithio pwrpasol hefyd.
Does yna ddim gwrthwynebiad o gwbl mewn ysgolion i gydweithio, wir. Mae yna nifer o ysgolion sy'n cydweithio â'u colegau addysg bellach lleol. Mae hwnna'n gweithio o fewn pynciau a meysydd penodol. Yn yr un modd, mae nifer o ysgolion yn pwlio eu hadnoddau at ei gilydd er mwyn cydweithio i ddarparu. Lle mae'r cydweithio'n mynd yn broblem ydy pan mae o'n troi o fod yn gydweithio i fod yn gystadleuaeth, a dyna beth rydyn ni eisiau ei osgoi. Beth rydyn ni eisiau ei sicrhau ydy bod unrhyw fuddsoddi mewn darpariaeth yn deg, yn rhesymol, ac yn dod yn ôl at beth sydd orau i'r dysgwr ar ddiwedd y dydd, yn hytrach na beth sydd yn arwain at lenwi coffrau rhyw sefydliad neu'i gilydd. Mae hwnna'n allweddol. Fel dwi'n dweud, mae yna heriau mawr ac mae yna bryderon difrifol yn ein hysgolion ni, ond gobeithio, trwy gydweithio a bod yna fewnbwn llawn gan ysgolion i'r broses o ddatblygu'r cynllun yna ac i gydweithio â Medr yn gyffredinol, efallai ein bod ni'n gallu mynd i'r afael â'r heriau yma rŵan.
If I can come in there, to be perfectly honest, I think this is the main challenge or concern facing Welsh-medium and bilingual secondary schools at the moment. Sixth forms are in a very vulnerable position. Schools are in a very vulnerable position because budgets and so on that are available to the schools in general, and more so on the sixth form level, where the numbers are lower. And contrary to the principle of a school, when decisions are driven by funding and so on, that creates a challenge to schools.
I think the concern that we have is that it's not a level playing field. So, whilst we want Welsh-medium pathways and as much Welsh-medium and bilingual provision as possible in every sector, the best continuity for every pupil is what we want at the end of the day. But that competition and that playing field is so unequal in terms of funding, where external grants can be received, and external sponsorship can be received, and schools are therefore under a disadvantage in that regard.
I think what's also important for us to be thinking about is that we want to see these developments in every sector. We want bilingual provision. We want Welsh-medium provision. But what's vital is that it's not at the expense of provision in another sector. I think there are concerns in some places or in certain contexts that there may be exciting developments in one organisation, but what we're doing, truth be told, is moving learners from one place to another, and if that provision isn't entirely through the medium of Welsh, unfortunately, what we see is a rolling back in terms of the use of the Welsh language by those pupils. I'm saying that this is where the challenge is, but it's also where the opportunity is.
As Ioan was saying now, in terms of the plan for Welsh-medium provision in the context of the work of Medr, clearly the changes are frightening in terms of several aspects that are happening in the post-16 sector. But here, now, there's an opportunity to look at the challenges facing sixth forms in schools. We know that the sixth form is important to the life of the school and how important it is in terms of continuity, in terms of the Welsh language and the use of Welsh language skills and the transfer of that into FE and HE and into careers and so on. So, we certainly know that there's value in sixth forms, but what we have is funding challenges militating against that. So, when we want to contribute towards the development of the plan that Ioan mentioned, we need to ensure that there are funding formulas that are fair, that there is planning that is fair and reasonable, and then that there is that deliberate collaboration.
There is no opposition at all in schools to collaboration. A number of schools collaborate with their local FE colleges. That works in terms of specific subjects. And there are a number of schools pooling their resources to collaborate to provide. Collaboration is only a problem when it turns from being collaboration to competition. That's what we want to avoid. We want to ensure that any investment in provision is fair and is reasonable and comes back to what is best for the learner at the end of the day, rather than what leads to filling the coffers of a particular institution. That's vitally important. As I said, there are major concerns and challenges in our schools, but hopefully by working together and there being input from those schools into the process of developing the plan and collaborating with Medr in general, we can tackle those challenges now.
Dwi'n credu, yn fyr iawn, bod yna gryfder hanesyddol o ran yr ysgolion o ran darpariaeth safon uwch. Yr hyn sydd wedi bod yn wan iawn o ran y Gymraeg yn hanesyddol ar yr un pryd yw darpariaeth alwedigaethol, darpariaeth ym maes prentisiaethau, gyda rhai eithriadau. Ac felly yr hyn sydd angen ei wneud yw buddsoddi yn y sector ôl-16, mewn colegau a, lle'n berthnasol, mewn ysgolion, mewn darpariaeth alwedigaethol, ond nid ar draul y cryfderau pwysig yma o ran y chweched dosbarth, sydd mor bwysig o ran dilyniant i mewn i addysg uwch.
Very briefly, I think that there's been a historic strength in schools in terms of A-level provision. What's been very weak in terms of the Welsh language historically alongside that is the vocational provision, the provision of apprenticeships, with some exceptions. So, what needs to be done is that we need to invest in the post-16 sector and in colleges, and, where relevant, in schools, in vocational provision, but not at the expense of those important strengths in the sixth forms, which are so important for continuity into HE.
Rydych chi'n gofyn am arfer da, a dwi'n meddwl y buasem ni'n gallu dod nôl atoch chi efo arfer da. Mae yna dystiolaeth anecdotaidd o gystadlu, mae yna dystiolaeth anecdotaidd o gydweithio hefyd, ond dwi'n meddwl bod gennym ni enghreifftiau arbennig o dda. Mae gennym ni nifer o ysgolion sydd yn cyplysu'r elfennau galwedigaethol ac academaidd, gyda'u dysgwyr nhw yn gwneud y ddau drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg. Mae yna gydweithio efo'r coleg lleol, ac yn y blaen. Ond maen nhw wedi dibynnu ar lot o waith caled ac ewyllys da ar lefel yr ysgol, ac weithiau, neu'n aml iawn, heb y gefnogaeth ariannol i wneud hynny, dim ond oherwydd ewyllys ac awydd yr ysgol i gadw eu dysgwyr ac i roi'r ddarpariaeth maen nhw'n galw amdano fo. Dwi'n meddwl mai beth rydyn ni'n galw amdano ydy sicrhau bod yna gefnogaeth ariannol i ddatblygiadau o'r math yna. Rydyn ni yn eu croesawu nhw, yn amlwg, rydyn ni eisiau llwybrau galwedigaethol cyfrwng Cymraeg ym mha bynnag sefydliad maen nhw'n cael eu darparu. Ond, ie, yn sicr gallwn ni ddod nôl atoch chi efo enghreifftiau mewn rhannau gwahanol o Gymru—felly, nid dim ond mewn un man, ond rhannau gwahanol o Gymru—lle mae yna gydweithio wedi digwydd yn effeithiol ond hefyd lle mae yna gystadlu sydd yn broblemus hefyd.
You're asking about good practice, and we can come back to you with evidence about good practice. There is anecdotal evidence of competition but also of collaboration. I think we have examples of very good practice. Schools are coupling these vocational elements with the academic elements amongst their learners, doing both, and they're doing that through the medium of Welsh. They're collaborating with the local college, and so on. But it depends on a great deal of hard work and goodwill on the school level, and very often without the external support to do that. It's only because of the goodwill of the school to retain their pupils and to provide the provision that they are asking for. So, what we're asking for now is to ensure that there is financial support for those kinds of developments. We welcome those developments, we want those Welsh-medium vocational pathways in whichever institution they're provided. But certainly we can come back to you with examples in different parts of Wales—so, not just in one place, different parts of Wales—where there is collaboration happening on an effective level and also where the competition is problematic.
Yes, please, that would be really helpful. Could I bring Dona in quickly here, please?
Dim ond yn fyr. Rydyn ni hefyd yn croesawu cynllun strategol Medr ac yn falch iawn o weld y cyfeiriad pendant iawn at y Gymraeg yn y cynllun, a hefyd rôl hanfodol y coleg yn hynny o beth yn cynghori. Dwi'n meddwl beth sydd yna ydy cyfle i fod yn llawer fwy cydlynus ar draws sawl gweithgaredd, sawl sefydliad, sawl un sy'n cyfrannu yn y maes yma. Rydyn ni'n croesawu yn y ganolfan, er enghraifft, y sgwrs iach rydyn ni'n ei gael gyda Medr ar hyn o bryd sydd yn mynd i ganiatáu i ni allu cynllunio yn llawer mwy strategol i'r dyfodol. Felly, dim ond i ddweud mai cyfle euraidd sydd gyda'r cynllun strategol ac rydyn ni'n edrych ymlaen at gydweithio efo sawl un i wneud yn siŵr bod hwn yn llawer mwy cydlynus ar gyfer y dyfodol.
Just very briefly. We also welcome the Medr strategic plan. We're very pleased to see a very definite reference to the Welsh language in that plan and the role of the coleg in advising on that. I think what this offers is an opportunity to be far more co-ordinated across a number of different activities, institutions and those contributing in this area. In the centre for learning Welsh, we welcome the healthy conversation we're having with Medr at the moment that'll help us to plan far more strategically for the future. So, I do think that there is a golden opportunity now with the strategic plan and we look forward to collaborating with a number of different partners to ensure that this is far more co-ordinated for the future.
If we could have that written evidence—. Sorry, I get feedback on the system so I hear my own voice and I sound very croaky at the moment, so I don't like it. If we can get that in terms of the good practice, but a better of understanding then of where it's failing as well, with that competition. It would be interesting to know whether or not that is, in a sense, bigger colleges managing to pull students away—they're offering more exciting courses maybe.
And again, and this probably leads on to my next question, if people saw a limited choice in vocational courses, as you mentioned there, people are switching then to English-medium to continue. I'm just wondering if that was something that you'd picked up, because what's been fed—. I don't know why I've got this back on. Because what's been back to us then, really, is that, especially in terms of choices after year 11, there are limited choices, and I was wondering whether or not you think that's impacting, almost, career progression, if that makes sense. And do you see, then, geographical variations? So, being out of it, you'd think that the city would have better choices, a rural environment less so, but that might not be the case.
If we could have one answer for this question, please, because we're really short on time.
O ran eich cwestiwn chi, yn hanesyddol, dwi'n credu, fel y dywedwyd, mae yna gryfder wedi bod o safbwynt Safon Uwch mewn ysgolion. Mae yna gryfder wedi datblygu o ran darpariaeth mewn prifysgolion, ond, pan gafwyd adolygiad rai blynyddoedd yn ôl o waith y coleg, fe wnaethpwyd argymhelliad i ehangu ein rôl ni i gefnogi darpariaeth alwedigaethol, achos yn fan yna y mae’r bwlch. Ac felly, mae’r gwaith yna ar ei hôl hi, ond mae yna gynnydd yn digwydd ar hyn o bryd. A'r her nawr yw datblygu'r un math o gynnig.
Rŷch chi'n dweud bod y dewis yn gyfyng—mae e'n llai cyfyng nag yr oedd e, ond mae yna ffordd hir i fynd, mae yna daith hir i fynd. Ond, ar gyfer y rheini sydd yn dymuno dilyn llwybrau galwedigaethol neu lwybr prentisiaethau, y tu fas i nifer gymharol fach o enghreifftiau, does yna ddim cymaint o ddewis wedi bod, ac fe wnaf i ddod yn ôl eto at gynllun Medr. Dyna efallai un o’r mannau i'w bwysleisio, ac y mae cydweithio yn mynd i fod mor allweddol o ran hynny. Felly, rŷch chi'n hollol gywir, ond rwy'n credu bod yr her rŷch chi'n ei ddisgrifio yn un sydd wedi cael ei adnabod ac mae yna ddechrau mynd i'r afael â hi.
In terms of your question, historically, I think, as has already been said, there has been a strength in terms of A-level within schools. Strengths have developed in terms of provision in universities, but, when there was a review some years ago of the work of the coleg, a recommendation was made to expand our role to support vocational provision, because that's where the gap exists. And that work is behind, but progress is being made at the moment. And the challenge now is to develop the same kind of offer.
You say the choice is restricted—it's less restricted than it was, but there's a long way to go, a long journey to go. But, for those who do want to follow vocational pathways or an apprenticeship route, beyond a relatively small number of examples, there hasn't been much choice, and I will return to the Medr plan. That is one of the areas that we need to emphasise perhaps, and co-operation is going to be so important in that regard. So, you're exactly right, but I do think that the challenge that you describe is one that has been identified and it's beginning to be tackled.
Dwi'n meddwl bod yna wahaniaethau daearyddol, ond dwi'n meddwl y byddech chi hefyd yn synnu, pe baem ni'n darparu’r data i chi, ar nifer y cyrsiau galwedigaethol sy'n cael eu rhedeg drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg yn ein hysgolion ni—byddech chi'n rhyfeddu. Mae beth y mae pobl yn meddwl ydy chweched dosbarth wedi trawsnewid yn llwyr mewn blynyddoedd diweddar, fel dwi'n ei ddweud, drwy ymdrech a gwaith caled, trwy gydweithio efo cyrff arholi allanol, trwy gyfieithu adnoddau—yr holl bethau hynny—er mwyn sicrhau bod yna opsiynau eang i ddysgwyr o fewn yr ysgol, ar y cyd â chyrsiau academaidd neu yn sefyll ar eu pen eu hunain. Mae yna gydweithio efo cyrff fel y Mudiad Meithrin, er enghraifft, ar gyrsiau gofal plant ac yn y blaen.
Mae yna ystod eang o arlwy ar gael, ond dydy o ddim yn gyson reit ar draws y wlad, yn amlwg—mae o'n dibynnu ar y sefyllfa yn lleol, mae'n dibynnu ar gyllidebau, mae'n dibynnu ar niferoedd. Ac felly, mae yna amrywiaeth daearyddol o ran hynny, a hefyd mae o'n ansefydlog iawn. Eto, rydym ni'n dod yn ôl at gyllid. Oherwydd y ffordd y mae’r fformiwlâu yn gweithio a’r niferoedd yn gyrru'r cyllid sydd ar gael i ddarparu a chynnal, mae cyrsiau yn gallu diflannu’n sydyn iawn ar ôl gwaith caled iawn i’w sefydlu nhw os nad ydy’r niferoedd yn caniatáu i'w parhau â nhw, a hynny’n groes, yn amlwg, i ewyllys ysgol a fyddai'n dymuno eu rhedeg nhw hyd yn oed efo niferoedd bychain.
Felly, dwi'n meddwl, oes, mae yna lai o gyrsiau galwedigaethol ar gael, neu mae yna ganran llai o gyrsiau galwedigaethol ar gael, drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg, oherwydd bod yna gymaint o gyrsiau galwedigaethol ar gael allan yna. Dwi'n meddwl ein bod ni hefyd yn gwbl agored wrth ddweud nad yr ysgol ydy'r lle i ddarparu pob cwrs galwedigaethol—dim yn fanna mae'r adnoddau na'r cyfarpar gorau. Dim yr ysgol ydy'r lle i bob dysgwr chwaith. Ond beth sy'n bwysig ydy bod y dysgwyr yn cael eu cyfeirio a'u cynghori i'r man gorau iddyn nhw fel unigolion, a ddim yn cael eu denu gan ryw grant sydd ar gael neu ryw gymhelliant ariannol neu ryw werthu neu beth bynnag arall mae rhai sefydliadau yn gallu gwerthu i ddysgwyr. Beth sy'n bwysig ar ddiwedd y dydd ydy rhoi'r cyfle gorau posib i bob dysgwr lwyddo yn academaidd, yn alwedigaethol—beth bynnag ydy'r llwybr gyrfa o'u dewis nhw, fod y gefnogaeth yna—ond eu bod nhw hefyd yn cael eu cynghori'n gywir ar ba lwybr sydd yn fwyaf addas iddyn nhw.
O ran pa ddarpariaeth sydd ar gael, yn amlwg, yn fanna mae'r elfen cynllunio a chyd-gynllunio yn allweddol fel ein bod ni'n sicrhau bod yr arian a’r amser yn cael eu buddsoddi yn y mannau hynny lle mae mwyaf o angen neu mae yna fwyaf o alw am ddarpariaeth cyfrwng Cymraeg.
I think there are geographical differences, but I think you'd be surprised, if we provided the data to you, by the number of vocational courses run through the medium of Welsh in our schools—you'd be very surprised. What people think a sixth form is has transformed completely in recent years, as I said, through the efforts and hard work of individuals, through working with external examination boards, by translating resources—all of those things—to ensure that there's a wide range of options available to learners within the schools, on a joint basis with academic courses or offered independently. We're working with bodies such as Mudiad Meithrin, for example, on childcare courses and so on.
So, there's a wide range of provision available, but it isn't consistent right across the nation—it depends on the local situation, it depends on budgets, it depends on numbers. And so, there is that geographical variance as a result of that, and also it's very unstable. Again, we come back to funding. Because of the way that the formulas work and the numbers drive the funding available for provision, courses can disappear very quickly after a great deal of hard work to establish them if the numbers don't enable the course to continue, and that's contrary to the wishes of the school, which would wish to run those courses even with a small number of students.
So, yes, there are fewer vocational courses available, or there is a lower percentage of vocational courses available, through the medium of Welsh, because there are so many vocational courses out there. But I think we're also open in saying that school isn't always the best place to provide every vocational course—that's not where the best resources or equipment are. School isn't the place for every learner either. But what's important is that the learner is advised and referred to the best place for them as individuals, and not attracted by some grant that's available or some financial incentive or anything else that institutions can sell to learners. What's important at the end of the day is to give every learner the best possible opportunity to succeed vocationally, academically—whatever their chosen career path is, that the support is there—but also that they're advised in the right way in terms of what path is best for them.
In terms of what provision is available, clearly, that's where the joint planning element is so important so that we ensure that the funding and time are invested in those places where there is greatest need or where there is most demand for Welsh-medium provision.
Mewn sawl ysgol uwchradd cyfrwng Cymraeg yn y de, er enghraifft, mae tua 70 y cant o fyfyrwyr chweched dosbarth yn dilyn o leiaf un cwrs galwedigaethol yn yr ysgol, ac mae’r rhain yn gyrsiau y mae’r ysgolion wedi gorfod ariannu a ffeindio’r arian allan o’u cyllid prin blynyddol nhw er mwyn sefydlu a dechrau’r pethau yma, lle efallai maen nhw wedi gweld buddsoddiad ychwanegol gan golegau er mwyn dechrau’r cyrsiau galwedigaethol Cymraeg yma, y sybsideiddio maen nhw’n eu cael—efallai gan y coleg Cymraeg—ond dyw ysgolion ddim wedi derbyn ceiniog am hwn er bod 70 y cant o’u myfyrwyr nhw yn dilyn o leiaf un cwrs galwedigaethol yn eu hysgolion.
In a number of Welsh-medium secondary schools in south Wales, for example, around 70 per cent of sixth-form students take at least one vocational course at school, and these are courses that the schools have had to fund and find funding for out of their limited annual budget in order to establish these courses, where perhaps they have seen additional investment from colleges in order to establish these Welsh language vocational courses, and there are other subsidies they receive—from the coleg Cymraeg, perhaps—but schools haven’t received a penny of that money although 70 per cent of their students do take at least one vocational course at school.
Thank you. We now have some questions from Cefin, please.
Diolch yn fawr iawn a bore da i chi i gyd, a diolch am eich tystiolaeth ysgrifenedig. Mae fy nghwestiwn i yn dilyn cwestiynau gan Joel, ac, i raddau, wedi cael eu hateb yn barod, ond dwi eisiau mynd ar ôl un pwynt penodol. Yn eich profiad chi, fel y mae’r sefyllfa ar hyn o bryd ac yn gyffredinol, gan dderbyn bod yna eithriadau daearyddol yn mynd i fod, ac rŷn ni’n ymwybodol bod yna densiynau mewn rhai ardaloedd hefyd—rŷch chi wedi cyfeirio at hyn—rhwng ysgolion a cholegau, ydy e’n wir i ddweud, at ei gilydd, y byddai disgybl yn fwy tebygol o aros yn y chweched dosbarth er mwyn cael addysg drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg na’u bod nhw’n mynd, a bod hynny ar gost, efallai, eu buddiannau academaidd neu eu buddiannau galwedigaethol nhw neu eu buddiannau addysgol cyffredinol nhw?
Thank you very much and good morning to you, and thank you for your written evidence. My question follows on from the questions from Joel, and, to an extent, they have been answered already, but I just want to pursue one specific point. In your experience, as the situation currently stands and in general, accepting that there will be geographical exceptions, and we are aware that there are tensions in some areas as well—you’ve referred to this—between schools and colleges, is it true to say that a pupil would be more likely to remain in sixth form to receive education through the medium of Welsh, and that that is at a cost, perhaps, to their academic interests or vocational interests or general educational interests?
Wel, dwi’n meddwl bod hwnnw’n gwestiwn anodd iawn i'w ateb, achos beth sy’n gyrru a llywio penderfyniadau pobl yn 16 oed? Yn sicr, pan fydd dysgwyr yn penderfynu aros yn yr ysgol, maen nhw’n llawn ymwybodol o beth sydd ar gael iddyn nhw o ran y cyfrwng astudio, o ran y gefnogaeth, y gefnogaeth academaidd, y gefnogaeth bugeiliol, yr holl gyd-destun sydd o’u cwmpas nhw fel unigolion yn ystod y pwynt yna yn eu hastudiaethau nhw.
Dwi’n meddwl efallai fod yr her yn dod i mewn o ran lle mae yna dewisiadau rhwng ysgol neu goleg. Beth sy’n llywio hwnna? Ac byddwn i’n hoffi meddwl bod dewis ieithyddol yn rhan o hynny, ond dwi ddim yn meddwl ei fod o wastad, ac mae hynny’n dod yn ôl eto i ba mor ymwybodol ydy ein pobl ifanc ni o werth a phwysigrwydd y dilyniant mewn addysg Gymraeg o ran cynnal eu hyder nhw yn eu sgiliau ieithyddol eu hunain. Felly, fyddwn i yn sicr ddim yn dweud bod yna bobl ifanc yn gwneud dewisiadau i aros yn yr ysgol ar draul beth fyddai orau iddyn nhw, yn academaidd neu’n alwedigaethol, er mwyn parhau i astudio drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg, ond, i rai, mae o’n ffactor sy’n rhan o’r penderfyniad yna, ac yn rhan gryf, ac yn iawn, felly, fod honno’n egwyddor bwysig wrth eu bod nhw’n penderfynu parhau â’u hastudiaethau.
Ond mae yna ffactorau eraill, onid oes? Mae yna bob math o ffactorau sy'n dylanwadu: ganddyn nhw'n bersonol, unigolion yn allanol, o fewn yr ysgol, teulu, ffrindiau, yr holl ffactorau hynny. Beth fyddwn i’n dod yn ôl ato ydy beth sydd yn bwysig, wrth gwrs, ydy bod yna gyfleoedd i astudio drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg ar gael ym mhob un sector yn y man, ond yn dod yn ôl at ddylai datblygiadau mewn un man ddim bod ar draul man arall, neu'r cyfan byddwn ni’n ei weld ydy symud pobl o un sefydliad i sefydliad arall, yn hytrach na, mewn gwirionedd, cynyddu’r nifer sy’n astudio trwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg, yn cynnal eu sgiliau yn y Cymraeg, ac yn mynd ymlaen wedyn i ddilyniant yn academaidd neu mewn swyddi i fod yn defnyddio'u sgiliau.
Well, I think that’s a very difficult question to answer, because what drives people’s decisions when they’re 16 years old? Certainly, when learners decide to stay at school, they are fully aware of the offer available to them in terms of the medium of teaching, the support, the academic support, the pastoral support, the whole context around them as individuals at that point in their studies.
I think the challenge arises where there's a choice between a school or college. What drives that? And I would like to think that language choice is part of that, but I don’t think that’s always the case, and I will come back again to how aware our young people are about the value and importance of continuity in Welsh-medium education in maintaining their own language skills and confidence. So, I certainly wouldn’t say that there are young people making choices to stay at school at the expense of what is best for them, either vocationally or academically, in order to study through the medium of Welsh, but, for some, it is a factor that is part of that decision-making process, and a strong part of that, and it’s quite right that’s an important principle as they decide to continue with their studies.
But there are other factors as well, of course. There are all sorts of factors that influence: their own, personally, individuals outside and inside the school, friends, family, all of those factors. What I would return to is that what’s important is that there are opportunities to be able to study through the medium of Welsh available in all sectors, but coming back to the point that developments in one area shouldn’t be at the expense of another, because all we will see then is people moving from one institution to another, rather than an increase in the number studying through the medium of Welsh, maintaining their Welsh language skills, and then moving on to a continuum academically or into the workplace to use their skills.
Ac yn dod nôl i'r gweithlu, ie.
And coming back to the workplace, yes.
Dwi’n credu bod pwynt pwysig iawn wedi cael ei wneud o ran pwysigrwydd cynnal y ddarpariaeth mae’r ysgolion yn ei chynnig trwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg. Mae hwnna mor bwysig, ond, fel hefyd y dywedwyd, yn syml iawn, mae yna lu o ddysgwyr, am bob math o resymau, yn dewis dilyn llwybrau galwedigaethol sydd ddim ar gael mewn ysgolion ac mae angen i rheini fod ar gael yn Gymraeg hefyd. Mae angen i’r wybodaeth a’r cyngor—i fynd yn ôl at eich cwestiwn gwreiddiol chi—gael eu teilwra er budd y dysgwyr, beth bynnag yw’r llwybr gyrfa maen nhw’n mynd i'w ddilyn.
I think a very important point has been made in terms of the importance of maintaining the provision that schools provide through the medium of Welsh. I think that’s hugely important, but, as has also been said, there are a whole host of learners who, for all kinds of reasons, choose to pursue vocational pathways that aren’t available in schools and they need to be available through the medium of Welsh as well. The information and the advice—to return to your original question—needs to be tailored to the benefit of the learner, whatever pathway they select.
Dwi’n meddwl bod yna bwynt allweddol yn fanna. Dwi ddim yn meddwl byddai dim un ysgol yn dymuno cynnig pob un cwrs galwedigaethol mae’r coleg addysg bellach lleol yn ei ddarparu. Beth fyddai ysgolion yn dymuno ei weld ydy does yna ddim cystadleuaeth ar stepen eu drws nhw gyda chymhelliannau ychwanegol efallai yn cael eu cynnig neu addewidion gwag weithiau hefyd ynglŷn â gwir faint y ddarpariaeth cyfrwng Cymraeg o fewn eu cyrsiau nhw, a dyna lle mae’r cyd-gynllunio yma yn bwysig; dyna lle mae angen tynnu’r elfen gystadleuol allan. Eto, rydym ni’n mynd yn ôl at beth sydd orau i’r dysgwyr, a beth rydym ni ei eisiau, yn amlwg, ydy i bob un person ifanc gael y cyfle i barhau i astudio trwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg ym mha bynnag sector, ym mha bynnag faes o’u dewis nhw, fel eu bod nhw’n cael y cyfle gorau posib o ran cyfrwng iaith i astudio, ond hefyd y cyd-destun y maen nhw’n astudio o’i fewn. Felly, dydy o ddim yn gorfod bod yr naill neu’r llall wrth ein bod ni’n penderfynu ar ble rydym ni’n cefnogi, a bod y naill yn well na’r llall neu dim byd felly. Mae o jest yn fater o edrych ar ble mae’r ddarpariaeth yma orau i gael ei chynnig, ac a ydy datblygu’r ddarpariaeth yma yn y fan hon mewn gwirionedd yn tanseilio darpariaeth sydd eisoes yn bodoli, ac a fyddai yna ddefnydd gwell o'r amser a'r arian a'r egni a’r brwdfrydedd tu ôl i hynny. Wedyn gallwn ni symud at sefyllfa, dwi’n meddwl, lle mae yna gydweithio llawer iachach yn gallu digwydd rhwng colegau ac ysgolion; achos dydyn nhw ddim yn gweld ei gilydd fel cystadleuaeth, maen nhw’n gallu cefnogi ei gilydd. Dyna dwi’n meddwl bydden ni i gyd yn dymuno ei weld ar ddiwedd y dydd.
I think there’s a key point there. I don’t think any school would want to provide every vocational course that the local FE college would provide. What schools would want to see is that there is no competition on their doorstep with additional incentives or empty promises made, on occasion, in terms of the true scale of the Welsh language provision within their courses, and that’s where joint planning is important; that’s where we need to remove that competition element. And again, we’re going back to what’s best for the learner, and what we want, of course, is for every young person to have an opportunity to continue to study through the medium of Welsh in whatever sector, whatever their chosen area of learning is, and to have the best opportunity possible in terms of the medium of teaching but also the context that they are taught in. So, it doesn't have to be either/or as we decide on where we provide support, and that one is necessarily better than the other. It's just a matter of looking at where the provision can be best provided, and whether developing that provision in this place undermines provision that already exists, and whether there wouldn't be a better use of the time, funding, energy and enthusiasm that lies behind that. Then we can move to a position where there is far healthier collaboration happening between colleges and schools; because they won't see each other as being in competition, they can support each other. I think that's what we would all want to see at the end of the day.
Ie.
Yes.
Can I bring Dona in here, please?
O ie, sori. Dona.
Oh yes, sorry. Dona.
I ychwanegu rhywfaint, efallai, o sefyllfa’r unigolyn ei hun, a mynd yn ôl at y pwynt mi wnes i ar y cychwyn, dwi’n meddwl bod y continwwm ieithyddol yn hollbwysig, ac mi all fod yn rhwystr. Mae hyder pobl ifanc yn gallu eu hatal nhw rhag cael mynediad at y cyrsiau sydd ar gael, a rydym ni’n gweld hynny yn niferus. Rydym ni’n gweld pobl yn cyrraedd cyrsiau cyfrwng Saesneg, ond mae ganddyn nhw ddigon o sgiliau i fod yn parhau â'u hastudiaethau trwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg—diffyg hyder yw, yn aml iawn. Dwi’n meddwl bod y diffyg a’r bwlch o ran y cwricwlwm sy’n cael ei gynnig yn yr ysgol a’r hyn sy’n cael ei gynnig tu allan i’r ysgol yn gallu bod yn rhwystr, yn sicr, a dwi’n meddwl eto bod y potensial i’r dyfodol o gael un continwwm clir i bobl ifanc i ddeall ble maen nhw’n gallu parhau i ddatblygu’r sgiliau a’r hyder i ddefnyddio’r Gymraeg er mwyn cael, yn amlwg, mynediad at waith, ac ar hyd eu taith fel teuluoedd, yn y gymuned, yn hollbwysig i'w ystyried hefyd. Mae yna rywfaint o hynny’n cael ei gynnig ar hyn o bryd; mae yna rywfaint o gydweithio gyda’r sector i gynnig elfennau, er enghraifft, o ddysgu Cymraeg neu godi hyder ochr yn ochr gyda rhai cyrsiau, ond dwi’n credu bod yna botensial i wneud llawer mwy.
To add a little in terms of the situation of the individual, and to go back to the point I made at the beginning, I think that the linguistic continuum is crucially important, and it can be a barrier. Young people's confidence can prevent them from accessing the courses that are available, and we see that in the numbers. We see people going on to English-medium courses, but they do have the skills to continue their studies through the medium of Welsh—I think it's a lack of confidence very often. I think the deficiency and gap in terms of the curriculum that's provided in schools and what's offered outside of school can be a barrier, certainly, and I think that the potential to have a single, clear continuum for young people to understand where they can continue to develop their skills and confidence through the medium of Welsh in order to able to access employment, and along their journey in their families and in their communities, is important to bear in mind too. Some of that is currently being provided; there is some collaboration in the sector to provide elements, for example, of learning Welsh or raising confidence in Welsh alongside some courses, but I think there's potential to do much more.
Jest atodiad byr, byr: gan gydnabod bod yna densiynau yn bodoli, gan gydnabod bod y gwrthdaro o ran buddiannau ieithyddol weithiau’n gwrthdaro yn erbyn buddiannau addysgol, ble ŷch chi’n gweld y datrysiad i hynny yn digwydd? Rŷch chi wedi cyfeirio at gynllun strategol Medr—
Just a brief supplementary: whilst recognising that tensions do exist, and whilst acknowledging that the conflict in terms of linguistic interests sometimes conflicts with educational interests, where do you see the solution to that? You've referred to Medr's strategic plan—
Mae’r ateb—. Rwy’n credu bod yna drafodaeth wedi cychwyn, rwy’n deall, cyn i Medr gael ei sefydlu, ar yr angen i ailedrych ar y cysyniad o lwybrau cydlynus ar lefel rhanbarthol a lleol, ac yn fanna mae’r ateb, dwi’n credu, sef bod yna bwysau yn cael ei roi o ran y cynllunio. Mae’r cynllunio’n bwysig, wrth gwrs, ond mae angen i’r cynllunio fod yn ei le yn gyntaf fel bod y llwybrau yn gydlynus ac yn drefnus er budd y dysgwyr, yn osgoi dyblygu di-angen, yn rhoi’r llwybrau yn y mannau lle mae orau i’r dysgwr gael lleoli’r ddarpariaeth. O wneud hynny—. A gwnaf i ddod nôl eto at gynllun Medr; mae’r cynllun yna’n cynnig y cyfle i wneud hynny a mynd i’r afael, felly—. Gallwn ni ddisgrifio’r heriau presennol a’r rhwystredigaeth sy’n tyfu o hynny, ond mae’n bwysicach mynd i’r afael â’r ffactorau sydd yn achosi’r rhwystredigaeth yna.
The answer—. There has been a discussion that was started, as I understand it, before Medr was established on the need to look again at this concept of co-ordinated pathways at a regional and local level, and that's where the solution lies, I believe, that there is an emphasis placed on planning. Planning is hugely important, of course, but the planning needs to be done first so that the pathways are co-ordinated and organised for the benefit of the learner, it avoids unnecessary duplication, and it provides those pathways in the places where it's best for the learner in terms of the location of the provision. In doing that—. And I'll come back again to the Medr plan; that plan provides the opportunity to do that work and to tackle—. We can describe the current challenges and the frustration that results from that, but it's more important to tackle the factors that cause that frustration.
Ie, a bod cyllideb yn dilyn.
Yes, and that the budget follows that.
Ac mae'n rhaid i drefn gyllido wedyn, cysod, sy'n cydnabod y ffaith bod y niferoedd sy’n dysgu trwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg o reidrwydd yn mynd i fod yn llai.
And then there needs to be a funding system that acknowledges that the numbers studying through the medium of Welsh are, necessarily, going to be lower.
Ocê. Os caf i arwain at y cwestiwn nesaf, a symud i sector ychydig bach yn wahanol, mae tystiolaeth gan nifer o gyrff yn dangos bod y nifer sydd yn mynd i addysg uwch wedi cyrraedd rhyw fath o fan gwastad. Ydych chi’n cydnabod hynny? Ydy hynny’n rhywbeth rŷch chi’n gyfarwydd ag e, a beth ellid ei wneud, mewn gwirionedd, i symud y sefyllfa ymlaen?
Okay. If I could move to my next question, and move to a somewhat different sector, evidence from a number of different bodies shows that the numbers going on to higher education have plateaued. Is that something that you recognise? And what can be done in order to make progress in this regard?
Ydy, mae hynny, yn sicr, yn rhywbeth rydym ni’n gyfarwydd ag e fel coleg. Felly, mae yna gynnydd cyson wedi bod dros y ddegawd diwethaf, ers sefydlu’r coleg, o ran y niferoedd sy’n astudio rhywfaint o’u cwrs nhw trwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg yn y brifysgol, ond rydym ni wedi cyrraedd plateau erbyn hyn o ran y nifer sy’n astudio canran sylweddol o’u cwrs nhw drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg. Mae’n bwysig, rwyf i’n credu, ein bod ni yn edrych ar ddatrysiadau. Mae hyn yn rhywbeth rydym ni wedi dechrau ei wneud fel coleg yn barod; fel rhan o’n cynllun academaidd diweddaraf ni, rydym ni’n edrych ar ymestyn ein cynulleidfaoedd ni. Fel rhan o’r thema ymestyn yna, mae nifer o brosiectau peilot ar waith gyda ni ar hyn o bryd, ac rwyf i’n credu bod y pwynt cynharach gwnaethon ni ei wneud ac rydym ni newydd ei wneud ynglŷn â chyllido darpariaeth yn bwysig hefyd. Yn amlwg, yn y sector addysg uwch ar hyn o bryd, mae yna heriau o safbwynt cyllido, ac mae adroddiad London Economics, fel y gwnaeth Prifysgolion Cymru cyfeirio ato fe, wedi cydnabod costau uwch sy'n gysylltiedig gyda darpariaeth Gymraeg. Felly, mae angen edrych ar hynny a sicrhau bod y llwybrau ar gael yn y prifysgolion ac yn parhau i fod ar gael. Ond yn ogystal â hynny, mae angen ymestyn allan. Dwi'n credu bod angen, yn sicr, edrych ar y gwahanol gynulleidfaoedd sy'n ymwneud ag addysg uwch, lle mae yna unigolion sydd â sgiliau Cymraeg sydd ddim yn dewis gwneud hynny neu ddim yn cael y cyfle i wneud hynny yn y sector uwch ar hyn o bryd. Felly, mae'r cynllunio cenedlaethol yn mynd i helpu gyda hynny hefyd, wrth gwrs, ond mae angen pwyslais ar hyrwyddo'r llwybrau cyfrwng Cymraeg sydd ar gael yn y prifysgolion hefyd.
Mae yna hefyd negeseuon, wrth gwrs—. Un o'r pethau sy'n heriol, dwi'n credu, ar hyn o bryd, yw'r ffaith fod nifer o ddisgyblion yn gadael Cymru i astudio yn y brifysgol ar hyn o bryd, ac mae hwnna'n lleihau'r pwll potential sydd ar gael i astudio drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg. Mae hynny'n rhywbeth sydd angen edrych arno fe. Mae yna gyfleoedd, dwi'n credu, efallai, drwy rywbeth fel y cynllun Seren, i gyflwyno targed penodol i gynyddu'r niferoedd sydd yn mynd ymlaen i astudio drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg. Byddai hwnna'n rhoi pwyslais ar yr agwedd honno ac yn sicrhau bod dysgwyr yn derbyn gwybodaeth ynglŷn â'r ddarpariaeth ragorol sydd ar gael i ddysgwyr os ŷn nhw'n astudio drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg. Felly, mae nifer o bethau sy'n heriol, ond mae nifer o bethau y gellid eu gwneud hefyd, dwi'n credu, i fynd i'r afael â rhai o'r heriau hyn, ac mae'r gwaith wedi dechrau'n barod.
Yes, that's certainly something that we are familiar with as the coleg. There has been progress made over the last decade, since the coleg was established, in terms of the numbers studying an element of their course through the medium of Welsh at university, but we have now reached a plateau in terms of the numbers studying a significant percentage of their course through the medium of Welsh. It's important, I believe, that we look at solutions. This is something that we've started to do as the coleg already; as part of our most recent academic plan, we're looking at extending our audiences. As part of that extension theme, there are a number of pilot projects under way, and I believe that the point that we made earlier and that we've just made in terms of funding provision is very important too. Clearly, in the higher education sector at the moment, there are challenges in terms of funding, and the London Economics report, as Universities Wales referred to, has acknowledged the higher costs related to Welsh-medium provision. So, there's a need to look at that and ensure that the pathways are available at universities and continue to be available. But as well as that, there's a need to reach out. I think there's a need to, certainly, look at the different audiences that are engaged in higher education, where there are individuals who have Welsh language skills who don't choose to engage or who don't receive the opportunities to engage in the higher sector at present. So, that national planning work is going to help with that, of course, but there needs to be an emphasis on promoting the Welsh-medium pathways that are available in universities as well.
There are also messages, of course—. One of the things that is challenging, I think, at the moment, is the fact that a number of pupils are leaving Wales to study at university at the moment, and that's decreased the potential pool available to study through the medium of Welsh. That is something that needs to be looked at. There are opportunities, I think, perhaps, through some things such as the Seren programme, to introduce a specific target to increase the numbers who go on to study through the medium of Welsh. That would provide that emphasis on that aspect of the work and ensure that learners receive information about the excellent provision that is available to learners if they choose to study through the medium of Welsh. So, there are a number of things that are challenging, but there are also a number of things that could be done too, I believe, to tackle some of these challenges, and the work has already started.
Gaf i dynnu'n ôl at rai o'r pwyntiau roedden ni'n eu gwneud yn gynt yn y cyd-destun yma? O le mae ein pwll ni o'r rheini sy'n astudio drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg mewn prifysgolion yn mynd i ddod yn y dyfodol? O le maen nhw'n dod ar hyn o bryd? Yn bennaf, o'r chweched dosbarth yn ein hysgolion Cymraeg a dwyieithog ni. Felly, er mwyn cynyddu'r nifer sy'n mynd ymlaen i astudio ar lefel addysg uwch drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg, mae'n rhaid inni gynyddu'r pwll yna sy'n astudio drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg rhwng 16 a 18. Heb wneud hynny, ac efallai fod yna ddarn o waith i'w wneud ar ddata i edrych ar le yn union mae'r rheini sydd yn astudio drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg neu'n rhannol drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg yn yr ysgolion ac yn y colegau addysg bellach—beth yw eu cyrchfan nesaf nhw, felly. Ond does yna ddim cwestiwn mai o'r ysgolion y mae'r prif gnewyllyn o'r rheini sy'n mynd ymlaen i astudio drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg neu'n rhannol drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg ym mhrifysgolion yn dod. Felly, mae'r angen yna i warchod, i ddiogelu, i gryfhau ac i atgyfnerthu'r ddarpariaeth o fewn ein hysgolion ni yn gwbl allweddol os ydyn ni'n dymuno gweld twf mewn addysg uwch drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg a'r niferoedd, sef y rheini'n amlwg sy'n mynd ymlaen i fod yn gyflogedig wedyn.
Y pwynt arall ydy ei fod yn mynd yn ôl i'r cyngor, onid ydy, a'r arweiniad sy'n cael ei roi am bwysigrwydd a gwerth dilyniant mewn addysg Gymraeg a chynnal y sgiliau hynny, ac nad ydy rhywun yn gallu cymryd yn ganiataol bod y sgiliau a'r hyder hynny'n parhau os ydyn nhw'n camu i astudio drwy gyfrwng iaith arall. Efallai eu bod nhw, mae'n dibynnu ar yr unigolyn, yn amlwg, ond a ydyn nhw wastad yn ymwybodol o hynny wrth wneud penderfyniadau? Ydy penderfyniadau ein pobl ifanc ni'n rhai gwybodus ynglŷn â chyfrwng a lleoliad astudio? Ond dwi'n dod nôl at y neges arall am bwysigrwydd y chweched dosbarth i ddarpariaeth gyfrwng Cymraeg sydd yn ein hysgolion ni.
May I come back to some of the points that we made earlier in this context? Where is the pool of those studying through the medium of Welsh at universities going to come from in the future? Where are they coming from at the moment? Well, mainly from the sixth forms in our Welsh-medium and bilingual schools. So, in order to increase the numbers studying at HE level through the medium of Welsh, we have to increase that pool of those studying through the medium of Welsh between 16 and 18. Without doing that, and there is perhaps a piece of work to be done in terms of data in terms of where exactly those studying either through the medium of Welsh or partially through the medium of Welsh in schools and in the FE colleges—what their next destination is, therefore. But there is no question that the schools are the main suppliers of those going on to study through the medium of Welsh or partially through the medium of Welsh at universities. So, that need to protect, to safeguard, to strengthen and to reinforce the provision within our schools is crucial if we do want to see a growth in HE through the medium of Welsh and a growth in the numbers, and those, of course, are the ones who will go on to the workplace as well.
The other point is that it comes back, doesn't it, to the advice and guidance provided on the value of the continuity of Welsh-medium education and maintaining those skills, and that one can't assume that those skills and confidence will continue if they do take a step to study through the medium of another language. Perhaps they do, it depends on the individual, of course, but are they always aware of those factors in making decisions? Are our young people's decisions informed in terms of the medium of education and the location of education? But I do return to that other message on the importance of sixth forms in terms of Welsh-medium provision in our schools.
Can I bring Natasha Asghar in here, please?
I was just waiting for Joel James—he had a question. My apologies.
Right. I'm sorry. Joel.
Thank you, Natasha. Thank you, Chair. Just two questions, if I may. Touching on what Cefin was saying there, if I remember, in my time when I used to sit on the Equality and Social Justice Committee, we did a lot of looking at education provision for those with disabilities and I just wanted to get some idea of what the situation is like for those who are going through Welsh-medium education—what the provision is like. Because one of the concerns that was raised in the previous committee I was on was basically that it was totally inadequate, really, and what I wouldn't want to see is someone who wants to go through a Welsh-medium route not really reaching their full potential because the options just aren't there for them.
And the second question is, you've talked a lot, then, about going on to Welsh language careers, and I just wanted to pick up something that was in the written evidence about the effectiveness of career support, and you've not filled in the box, if that makes sense—you've not provided any evidence there, and I just want to get an idea there. Because one of the things, again, that was brought up on my previous committee was that career support and career advice is pretty poor and pretty inconsistent. I imagine that it's probably similar, then, via the Welsh language, I suppose. Thank you.
Could witnesses be really succinct with their answers, because time is racing by, and we've still got a lot to get through?
Rwy'n credu ar fater y cyngor, rwy'n credu bod yr ateb rhoesom ni ynghynt wedi mynd i'r afael â hynny, i ryw raddau, oherwydd rwy'n credu bod yna gyngor yn cael ei ddarparu, ond mae angen iddo fe fod yn well ac mae angen iddo fe gael ei deilwra yn well at ddibenion y dysgwr. O ran cefnogi dysgwyr gydag anableddau, rwy'n credu bod yna heriau cyffredinol yn fan hyn. Dwi ddim yn gwybod, Gwennan—dwi ddim yn ymwybodol bod yna dystiolaeth bod yna fwy o heriau'n wynebu dysgwyr fyddai'n dilyn llwybr cyfrwng Cymraeg.
I think in terms of the careers advice, I think that the response we gave earlier responded to that point, to some extent, because I believe that advice is provided, but it needs to be better and it needs to be better tailored to the needs of the learner. In terms of supporting learners with disabilities, I think there are general challenges here. I don’t know, Gwennan—I’m not aware that there is evidence that there are more challenges facing learners who would be pursuing a Welsh-medium pathway.
O fewn ysgolion, yn sicr, byddai disgyblion ddim o dan anfantais o gwbl yn fanna, oherwydd y ffordd mae ysgol yn cynllunio'n strategol er mwyn gwneud yn siwr eu bod nhw yn diwallu anghenion pob disgybl. Mae rhai ysgolion cyfrwng Cymraeg hefyd ag unedau anghenion dysgu ychwanegol dwys ynddyn nhw. Efallai fod yna ychydig bach o siom ar y dechrau nad oedd, yng nghynllun strategol drafft Medr, gyfeiriad at ADY neu ADY dwys o gwbl yn eu cynllun drafft nhw. Ond yn sicr, mae ysgolion yn mynd i'r afael â hwnna, ac rŷch chi'n gweld hwnna hefyd yn adroddiadau Estyn i ysgolion cyfrwng Cymraeg—y gefnogaeth maen nhw'n rhoi i anghenion dysgu ychwanegol ac anghenion dysgu ychwanegol dwys.
From a schools’ perspective, certainly, the pupils wouldn’t be disadvantaged at all there, because of the way that the schools plan strategically to ensure that they meet the needs of every pupil. Some Welsh-medium schools have intensive additional learning needs units for those with more serious requirements. Perhaps there was a slight disappointment at the outset that Medr's draft strategic plan didn’t have any reference to ALN or intensive ALN at all. But certainly, the schools are addressing that and you can see that too in the Estyn reports for Welsh-medium schools—the support that they do provide for ALN and more intensive ALN requirements.
Yr unig beth fyddwn i jest yn ychwanegu, o ran y cyngor gyrfa sydd yn cael ei ddarparu i ysgolion—dwi'n meddwl mai beth dŷn ni'n ei weld ydy'r anghysondeb yna yn genedlaethol, yr hyn roeddwn yn cyfeirio ato ynghynt, yn dibynnu ar yr adnoddau a'r capasiti sydd y tu mewn i ysgolion. O ran mewnbwn allanol, eto, mae'n amrywio'n fawr yn ddaearyddol. Yn sicr, mae'r gefnogaeth hynny wedi gwanhau yn sylweddol ac mae'r gwasanaeth sy'n cael ei ddarparu i ysgolion wedi crebachu yn ddifrifol yn y blynyddoedd diweddar. Felly, mae'n amlwg yn rhywbeth sydd angen edrych arno fo.
The only thing that I would add, in terms of the careers advice that is provided for schools, is that I think that what we’re seeing is inconsistency on a national level, which I referred to earlier, depending on the resources and capacity there are within schools. In terms of external input, again, that varies a great deal in geographic terms. Certainly, that support has weakened significantly and the service that is provided to schools has shrunk significantly in past years. So, it’s clearly something that needs to be looked at.
Mae profiad gwaith, er enghraifft, wedi diflannu mewn lot o fawr o ysgolion erbyn hyn, oherwydd dyw Gyrfa Cymru ddim yn gallu cefnogi ysgolion fel roedden nhw flynyddoedd yn ôl. A dyw'r capasiti gweinyddol ddim gan ysgol er mwyn gallu mynd i'r afael â ffeindio llefydd profiad gwaith ar gyfer yr holl fyfyrwyr sydd gyda nhw ym mlwyddyn 10 neu 11 ac ati. So, mae hwnna'n rhywbeth mae ysgolion wedi gweld, efallai, fwlch ynddo fe dros y blynyddoedd diwethaf.
Work experience, for example, has disappeared in many schools now, because Careers Wales can't support schools as they did years ago. And the administrative capacity doesn't exist within a school in order to actually find work-experience placements for all the pupils they have in years 10 and 11. So, that's something where schools have seen, perhaps, a gap developing in recent years.
Okay. Thank you. We now go over to Vaughan, please, on the screen.
Diolch yn fawr, Cadeirydd. Bore da, pawb.
Thank you, Chair. Good morning, everyone.
I'm not going to ask one question—I think you've already covered it—about whether learners lack confidence in Welsh language skills. I’m interested in transport as a barrier to learners accessing post-16 education. That’s been a theme in the inquiry so far. I think I can anticipate the answer, but I’m going to ask the question. In your experience, how much of a consideration is transport and the costs of travel for learners when they choose whether to continue studying through the medium of Welsh? And as a second part of that, do you think there’ll be any impact, and, if so, what, of the pilot of £1 bus fares?
O ran trafnidiaeth, mae hwnna'n sicr yn un o'r ffactorau mwyaf mae ysgolion wedi ei adnabod lle maen nhw, efallai, yn colli disgyblion, oherwydd, yn ddaearyddol, mae'r colegau addysg bellach, fel arfer, yn agos iawn at hybiau trafnidiaeth, lle dyw ysgolion cyfrwng Cymraeg ddim yn agos at rheini, ac mae'n anodd eu cyrraedd nhw. Hefyd, mae ysgol cyfrwng Cymraeg, fel arfer, yn gallu—. Mae dalgylch llawer ehangach gan ysgol cyfrwng Cymraeg nag sydd gydag ysgol Saesneg, felly mae plant, hyd yn oed ym mlwyddyn 7 i fyny, yn teithio'n bell i gyrraedd yr ysgol.
Ond, wrth gwrs, mae'r drafnidiaeth yna yn cael ei thalu ar hyn o bryd; dyw e ddim ar gyfer y chweched dosbarth, wrth gwrs. Ar ben hwnna, wedyn, mae yna rai ysgolion cyfrwng Cymraeg lle nad jest nhw yw'r unig ysgol Gymraeg mewn sir, ond mae plant yn dod atyn nhw o siroedd sydd dros y ffin hefyd, er enghraifft Ysgol Gymraeg Gwynllyw—mae plant sawl sir yn mynd i'r ysgol yna. Felly, mae ambell ysgol wedi gweithio mas, er mwyn i'w plant nhw aros yn y chweched dosbarth gyda nhw, jest yn defnyddio'r EMA grant maen nhw'n cael, mae'n mynd i gostio tua £500 y flwyddyn i rai o'r plant yna, mewn ardaloedd difreintiedig, ddewis aros mewn ysgol Gymraeg. Felly, yn hytrach na bod incentives i aros mewn addysg Gymraeg, mae yna rwystrau ariannol i aros mewn addysg Gymraeg i lawer iawn o blant a'u teuluoedd mewn ardaloedd arbennig. Felly, mae hwnna, rwy'n gwybod, yn destun rhwystredigaeth enfawr i benaethiaid ledled y wlad.
In terms of transport, that certainly is one of the biggest factors that schools have identified where they're, perhaps, losing pupils, because, geographically, the FE colleges tend to be located very closely to transport hubs, whereas Welsh-medium schools don't tend to be as close to those hubs and it's difficult to access them. Also, a Welsh-medium school can usually—. The catchment area is far wider in terms of the Welsh-medium school as compared to an English-medium school, so pupils, even in year 7 and above, are travelling very far to get to school.
But, of course, that transport is paid for at the moment; it isn’t for sixth form, of course. On top of that, then, there are some Welsh-medium schools—not only are they the only Welsh-medium school in the county, but also pupils come to them from counties over the border, for example Ysgol Gymraeg Gwynllyw—children from several counties attend that school. So, some schools have worked out that for their pupils to remain in sixth form with them, just using the education maintenance allowance grant that they have, it’s going to cost around £500 a year for some of those children, in deprived areas, to choose to remain in a Welsh-medium school. So, rather than there being incentives to remain in Welsh-medium education, there are financial barriers to remain in Welsh-medium education for many children and families in particular areas. So, that I know is the cause of great frustration to school heads across Wales.
A'r pwynt ychwanegol fan hyn ydy bod yna anghysondeb yn genedlaethol hefyd, achos gwahaniaeth rhwng polisïau awdurdodau lleol gwahanol a’r hyn y maen nhw yn ei gynnig fel darpariaeth trafnidiaeth am ddim neu ar gost. Ond yn sicr, mae gweld bod trafnidiaeth yn effeithio ar allu dysgwyr i barhau drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg mewn unrhyw gyd-destun, heb sôn am fod mewn cyd-destun o ddifreintedd, yn sefyllfa y byddem ni yn sicr ddim yn dymuno ei weld yn parhau, ac yn rhywbeth mae’n hysgolion ni’n sicr yn pwyso i edrych arno fo.
Mae yna her arall yn y fan hyn hefyd, sef bod rhai o’r colegau efallai yn gallu darparu grantiau neu gymelliannau eraill sydd yn gwneud iawn am hynny, ac felly mae o’n abwyd arall i dynnu pobl ifanc efallai sydd ddim â’r modd ariannol i allu talu am gostau teithio i’r ysgol, heb sôn am beth sydd yn fwyaf ymarferol neu hwylus iddyn nhw. Felly, mae trafnidiaeth yn ffactor mawr. Eto, petaech chi’n dymuno inni edrych ar ddarparu tystiolaeth am sut mae hwn yn effeithio ar ysgolion unigol mewn ardaloedd gwahanol oherwydd polisïau awdurdodau lleol unigol, yn sicr fe allem ni wneud hynny. Mae yna ddigon o dystiolaeth allan yna.
An additional point here is that there is inconsistency at a national level too, because of differences in the policies of different local authorities and what they provide as free transport provision or transport provision that’s charged for. But certainly, seeing that transport does have an impact on the ability of learners to continue in Welsh-medium education in any context, never mind a context of deprivation, is a situation that we wouldn’t want to see continue, and it’s certainly something that our schools are urging for a review of.
There's another challenge here too, which is that colleges can provide grants or other incentives that make up for that, and therefore it’s another attraction for young people who perhaps don’t have the financial means to pay their travel costs to school, never mind what is most practical or convenient to them. So, transport is a major factor. Again, if you would like us to look at providing evidence as to how this impacts individual schools in different areas because of the various policies of individual local authorities, we certainly could do that. There's plenty of evidence out there.
Os caf i—? Mae trafnidiaeth yn her, ond mae yna ddau beth: mae cost trafnidiaeth, ond mae argaeledd trafnidiaeth hefyd. Fel rhywun sy’n dod o bentref bach yng nghefn gwlad sir Gâr, Llanboidy, lle mae bws yn mynd unwaith yr wythnos i’r dref agosaf, yn gadael am 10 y.b. ac yn dod nol am 2 y.p., dyw hynny ddim yn ymarferol o ran galluogi dysgwyr i gael y mynediad at ddarpariaeth. Felly, mae’n effeithio, dwi’n credu, ar ysgolion a cholegau hefyd mewn rhai ardaloedd. Felly, mae’n bwysig edrych ar y ddau beth.
Mae’n wych gweld buddsoddiad a chynnig i ddysgwyr sy’n mynd i, gobeithio, liniaru rhai o’r heriau sy’n ymwneud â chyllid a chost trafnidiaeth, ond mae argaeledd yn her arall hefyd. Os oes yna drên yn teithio, yn hytrach na bws—hynny yw, mae yna beth amrywiadau daearyddol hefyd i’w hystyried.
If I may—? Transport is a challenge, but there are two issues here: first, there’s the cost of transport, but there’s also the availability of transport. As one who comes from a very small village in rural Carmarthenshire, Llanboidy, where a bus goes once a week to the nearest town, leaving at 10 a.m. and returning at 2 p.m., that isn’t practical in terms of enabling a pupil to access any provision. So, it impacts schools and colleges alike in some areas. So, it's important to look at both issues.
It's excellent to see investment and an offer to learners that will hopefully mitigate some of the challenges related to funding and the cost of transport, but availability is another challenge. If there is a train, rather than a bus—that is, there are geographical variations to consider too.
We now have some questions from Natasha, please.
Thank you so much—
Sorry, Vaughan, did you want to come back in there?
No, no. I'm content, Chair, thank you.
All right. Sorry, Natasha.
That's okay, Chair. I was going to ask in relation to staffing. We obviously understand that there are staffing shortages in teaching in English medium, let alone Welsh medium. I can understand the struggle is genuinely real, but when it comes to expanding the provision of Welsh medium in tertiary education, what would you like to see being done and by whom? Is Medr going to be the answer to everyone’s prayers in this area, or is there any other specific department that you can see helping with that?
Rwy’n credu bod cynllun strategol Medr yn allweddol, yn sicr o ran y gweithlu mewn addysg uwch, addysg bellach, prentisiaethau ac yn y blaen, ac rŷn ni mewn trafodaethau ar hyn o bryd ynglŷn â chynnig rhai cynlluniau newydd tymor byr a fyddai’n lliniaru rhai o’r heriau hynny. Er enghraifft, mae recriwtio staff mewn meysydd galwedigaethol yn her oherwydd mae’r cyflogau sy’n cael eu cynnig yn aml iawn yn llawer is nac y mae’r ymarferwyr hyn yn gallu ennill trwy weithio yn eu meysydd nhw. Felly, mae eu denu nhw mewn i fod yn hyfforddwyr yn anodd iawn. Felly, mae yna gyfleoedd yn fanna i arbrofi, dwi’n credu.
Ond rŷn ni’n dod nôl, wrth gwrs, at y gweithlu addysg mewn ysgolion, ac at Fil y Gymraeg ac Addysg (Cymru) sy’n mynd drwyddo ar hyn o bryd. I wireddu’r uchelgais sydd ynghlwm wrth y Bil yna, mae angen cynyddu’n sylweddol niferoedd yr athrawon sy’n dysgu drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg, boed hynny yn y sector cyfrwng Cymraeg, neu mewn ysgolion sy’n dysgu’n bennaf drwy gyfrwng y Saesneg. Felly, dyna’r her, ac mae honno’n her, dwi’n credu, i Lywodraeth Cymru yn ei chyfanrwydd. Byddai dyn yn gobeithio, o weld y Bil yn cael ei basio, y byddai, i Lywodraethau’r dyfodol—achos mae hwn yn gynllun sy’n mynd ymlaen yng nghyd-destun ehangu’r defnydd a Cymraeg 2050—yr angen i ddatblygu gweithlu addysg hirdymor a hyfyw yn flaenoriaeth a fyddai’n cael ei rhannu reit ar draws adrannau’r Llywodraeth yn y dyfodol.
I do believe that Medr's strategic plan is crucial, certainly in terms of the workforce in FE, HE, apprenticeships and so on, and we are currently in discussions in terms of providing some new short-term programmes that would mitigate some of those challenges. For example, staff recruitment in vocational courses is a challenge because the salaries provided are very often way lower than these practitioners could earn working in their areas of expertise. So, bringing them in to teaching is very difficult. So, I think there are opportunities there to test the situation out.
But we come back, of course, to the school workforce, and the Welsh and Education (Wales) Bill that's currently going through. To deliver the ambition of that Bill, we do need a significant increase in the numbers of teachers who do teach through the medium of Welsh, be that in the Welsh-medium sector or in schools that teach mainly through the medium of English. So, that is the challenge, and I think that is a challenge for the Welsh Government as a whole. One would hope, in seeing the Bill passed, that for future Governments—because this is a plan that will develop in terms of the use of the Welsh language and Cymraeg 2050—the need to develop a Welsh-medium workforce that is viable in the long term is a priority that would be shared across all departments of Government in future.
Mae recriwtio athrawon i ysgolion yn her barhaus yn gyffredinol, ac yn y sector Gymraeg yn her ddifrifol, ac mewn rhai pynciau yn ddifrifol iawn, lle does yna ddim ymgeiswyr allan yna am y swyddi, lle mae'n rhaid gorfod dibynnu ar unigolion, pan efallai nad yw'r pwnc yn ddewis pwnc iddyn nhw i'w ddarparu ond eu bod yn gorfod darparu, er mwyn llenwi’r bylchau yna. Felly, mae recriwtio yn her ddifrifol ac yn bryder. Mae nifer o gynlluniau gwahanol wedi ceisio mynd i’r afael â hyn, ac wedi llwyddo’n rhannol, ond yn sicr ddim wedi llwyddo i drawsnewid y darlun. A gyda'r nod fawr i ehangu addysg Gymraeg, mae'n her enfawr o ystyried ein bod ni'n methu sicrhau'r cyflenwad angenrheidiol i'n darpariaeth bresennol ni.
Felly, mae yna waith difrifol i'w wneud gan y Llywodraeth yn y cyd-destun yma, a dwi'n meddwl bod yna sawl peth. Mae yna un o ran y llwybrau cymhwyso. Mae yna lwybrau amrywiol ar gael ac mae'n rhaid inni wir edrych a ydyn ni wedi edrych ar bob un opsiwn posib o ran llwybrau sydd i gymhwyso i ddod yn athrawon. Ydyn ni wedi gwneud digon i edrych ar lwyth gwaith athrawon? Yn sicr ddim. Mae'r pwysau gwaith sydd ar athrawon—. Pan dŷn ni'n trio gwerthu addysgu fel gyrfa ochr yn ochr â gyrfâu eraill, gyda'r llwyth gwaith a'r diffyg hyblygrwydd ac yn y blaen, dydyn nhw ddim yn yrfaoedd atyniadol fel y maen nhw. Felly, mae yna waith difrifol i'w wneud yn y cyd-destun hwnnw, a hefyd i fynd i'r afael â materion fel presenoldeb ac ymddygiad, a'r holl bethau hynny mae ysgolion yn gorfod delio efo nhw. Felly, dŷn ni angen eu denu nhw, ond dŷn ni hefyd angen eu cadw nhw unwaith maen nhw yn ein hysgolion ni.
Felly, mae o'n ddarn o waith sylweddol iawn sydd angen ei wneud, ac angen ei wneud ar frys, fel dwi'n dweud, er mwyn sicrhau cynaliadwyedd y ddarpariaeth bresennol, ac yn sicr er mwyn gallu gweithio tuag at gynyddu addysg Gymraeg, fel dŷn ni'n anelu at wneud, ac yn gobeithio ei wneud, yn amlwg, dros y blynyddoedd nesaf.
Teacher recruitment in schools is an ongoing challenge in general, and in the Welsh-medium sector it’s a serious challenge, particularly so in some subjects, where there are no candidates out there for specific posts, where you have to depend on individuals, when perhaps it’s not their chosen subject to provide but they have to, in order to fill those gaps. So, recruitment is a serious challenge and it is a concern. There are a number of different schemes that have tried to tackle this, and they’ve succeeded partly, but they haven’t managed to transform the situation. And with the major objective of expanding Welsh-medium education, it's a huge challenge, bearing in mind that we can't provide the current level of staffing that we need.
So, there is a great deal of work to be done in this context, and there are several issues. There's one thing in terms of the qualification pathways. There are various pathways available and we need to truly look at whether we have looked at every possible option in terms of those pathways on how to qualify as a teacher. Have we done enough to look at teacher workloads? Certainly not. The work pressures on teachers—. When we try to sell teaching as a career alongside other careers, with the workload and the lack of flexibility and so on, they aren't attractive careers as they currently stand. So, there is a great deal of work to be done in that context, and also to tackle issues such as attendance and behaviour, and all of the things that schools have to deal with. So, we need to attract those teachers, but we also need to retain them once they are in our schools.
So, it is a significant piece of work that needs to be done, and needs to do be done as a matter of urgency, to ensure the sustainability of the current provision, and certainly to work towards increasing the Welsh-medium provision of education, as we aim to do, and hope to do, obviously, over the next few years.
Ond hefyd mae'r data rŷn ni'n ei ddefnyddio er mwyn adnabod beth yw ein pynciau blaenoriaeth ni o ran cynyddu capasiti athrawon yn bwysig i edrych arno hefyd, achos mae'r data mae Cyngor y Gweithlu Addysg yn ei ddarparu er mwyn adnabod y pynciau yna—ar hyn o bryd, dyw'r data ar gyfer y gweithlu cyfrwng Cymraeg mewn ysgolion ddim yn cael ei gyflwyno ar wahân. Ac felly, er enghraifft, byddai penaethiaid yn anghytuno â rhai o'r pynciau blaenoriaeth ar gyfer eleni oherwydd maen nhw'n rhai cyffredinol sydd yn cwmpasu Cymraeg a Saesneg fel sectorau, ond petasech chi'n drilio i lawr, wedyn, i'r data yn y sector cyfrwng Cymraeg, fe fyddech chi'n gweld bod cerddoriaeth yn un o'r pynciau yna mae pobl wir yn poeni amdanyn nhw ynglŷn â chyflenwad athrawon dros y blynyddoedd nesaf, ond dyw hwnna ddim yn cael ei adlewyrchu yn yr un ffordd. Felly, mae yna waith gyda ni i'w wneud i wneud yn siŵr ein bod ni'n gallu drilio i lawr i'r data cywir ar gyfer y gweithlu addysg cyfrwng Cymraeg.
But also the data that we use in terms of identifying our subject priorities in terms of increasing capacity among teachers is important to look at too, because the data that the Education Workforce Council provides in order to identify those subjects—at the moment, the data for the Welsh-medium workforce in schools isn't actually provided separately. So, for example, headteachers may disagree with some of the subject priorities for this year because they are general ones that encompass both the Welsh and English sectors, but if you were to drill down into that data in the Welsh-medium sector, you would see that music is one of those subjects that people are truly concerned about in terms of teacher supply in the coming years, but that isn't reflected in the same way. So, there is work that we have to do to ensure that we can drill down into the correct data on the Welsh-medium workforce.
Thank you. I can see Dona wants to come in here.
Ar y cwestiwn ynglŷn â phwy sydd â'r cyfrifoldeb i wneud hyn, dwi'n meddwl bod angen cofio bod yna rai mentrau yn barod sydd yn cael eu cynnig, ac mae'r ganolfan â dyletswydd bendant i fod yn cynnig hyfforddiant i uwchsgilio gweithluoedd a sectorau. Mae yna un cynllun pendant ar hyn o bryd ar gyfer addysg bellach ac addysg uwch. Rŷn ni'n cydweithio gyda'r coleg ar hyn o bryd. Mae yna tua 700 sy'n cael eu huwchsgilio i gynyddu eu sgiliau Cymraeg. Mae gyda ni hefyd gynllun newydd ar gyfer y gweithlu addysg statudol, ac erbyn diwedd y flwyddyn, byddwn ni wedi hyfforddi hyd at 2,000 o bobl yn y sector, i'w huwchsgilio o ran y Gymraeg, ac mae hynny eto yn gontinwwm. Nid dim ond dechreuwyr ydy'r rhain, ond rheini sydd ar eu siwrnai o ran dysgu'r iaith.
Felly, dwi'n meddwl bod angen cydnabod y cynlluniau sydd ar waith yn barod, a'r potensial i ymestyn y rheini i'r dyfodol, ac arbenigedd sawl corff sydd yn gallu cyfrannu at hyn. Dwi ddim yn rhagweld mai Medr ei hun, efallai, fyddai'n gwneud hynny, ond mae'r cyfle i fod yn gydlynus a thynnu popeth at ei gilydd, gan ystyried y dyfodol a'r Bil, wrth gwrs, yn un y dylid manteisio arno fo'n bendant.
On the question of who has responsibility for doing this, I think we need to bear in mind that there are some initiatives that are being provided already, and the centre has a clear duty to be providing training to upskill workforces and sectors. There is one specific scheme for FE and HE. We're collaborating with the coleg at the moment. Seven hundred staff members are being upskilled in terms of their Welsh language skills. We also have a new scheme for the statutory education workforce, and by the end of the year, we will have trained up to 2,000 people in the sector, to upskill them in terms of the Welsh language, and that, again, is a continuum. These aren't just beginners and new learners, but those who are on their journey in terms of learning the Welsh language.
So, I think we need to acknowledge the schemes that currently exist, and the potential to extend them to the future, and the expertise of several bodies that can contribute to the work. I don't foresee that Medr itself, perhaps, would be leading that work, but the opportunity to be co-ordinating and to draw everything together, bearing in mind the future and the Bill, of course, is one we should certainly take advantage of.
Thank you so much for that. My following question, and my final question, is: we've been told by some colleges that funding needs to increase to be able to see an increase in Welsh-medium provision—it's basically interlinked —soto what extent is the funding allocation system that exists at present hindering the expansion of available provision to people?
Dwi'n credu bod y system gyllido addysg bellach yn system sydd yn cydnabod costau ychwanegol darpariaeth cyfrwng Cymraeg, ond yr her ydy nad ydy'r gyllideb sydd ar gael wedi cynyddu ers nifer fawr o flynyddoedd, ac felly does dim modd cydnabod y cynnydd sydd yn digwydd mewn meysydd galwedigaethol mewn colegau oedd cynt ddim yn cynnig rhyw lawer trwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg. Felly, mae angen, fel rhan o adolygiad ehangach Medr o systemau cyllido, fynd i'r afael â'r her benodol honno.
Mae'r her mewn addysg uwch, fel y dywedwyd yn barod, yn fwy difrifol, oherwydd yn fanna, does yna ddim unrhyw gyllideb ar hyn o bryd, heblaw cyllid gan y coleg Cymraeg, i gydnabod costau ychwanegol dysgu drwy'r Gymraeg mewn prifysgolion, heblaw mewn nifer fach iawn o feysydd arbenigol, fel meddygaeth. Er mae yna adroddiad gan yr Higher Education Funding Council Wales, cyn iddyn nhw ddod i ben—a gomisiynwyd gan HEFCW—wedi cydnabod yr angen am hynny.
Ond jest i fod yn ôl at y pwynt a wnaed ynghynt, ochr yn ochr â'r cynllunio traws-sector yma, sy'n gallu digwydd nawr mewn ffordd gydlynus yn dilyn sefydlu Medr, mae mawr angen mynd i'r afael hefyd â materion cyllido. Dwi'n gwybod bod cydweithwyr yn Medr yn dechrau ystyried hyn ar hyn o bryd, ac yn ymwybodol o rai o'r heriau, gan gynnwys, ond nid yn unig, yr heriau sy'n wynebu colegau addysg bellach.
I believe that the FE funding regime is a system that does recognise the additional costs of Welsh-medium provision, but the challenge is that the budget available hasn't increased for a number of years, so you cannot recognise the progress that's being made in vocational colleges that previously didn't provide a great deal through the medium of Welsh. So, as part of a broader review by Medr of different funding systems, there is a need to address that specific challenge.
The challenge in HE, as has already been said, is more serious still, because there, there is no budget, apart from funding from the Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol, to acknowledge the additional costs of teaching through the medium of Welsh in universities, apart from in a very small number of specialist areas, such as medicine. There was a report commissioned by the Higher Education Funding Council Wales, before it was brought to an end, that recognised the need for that.
But to return to the point made earlier, along with this cross-sectoral planning, which can happen now in a co-ordinated way as a result of the establishment of Medr, there is truly a need also to address issues around funding. I know that colleagues in Medr are starting to consider this issue at the moment, and are aware of some of these challenges, including, but not only, the challenges facing FE colleges.
A gaf fi nodi bod yr un her yn wynebu ysgolion, i'r un graddau os nad yn fwy, o ran cynnal ac ehangu eu darpariaeth nhw? Mae cyllidebau ysgolion yn dynn iawn, iawn. Dydy'r fformiwlâu cyllido ddim o reidrwydd y gorau i'r hyn sydd ei angen i ddatblygu darpariaeth i'r dyfodol oherwydd y ffordd y maen nhw'n cael eu cyfrifo. Ond hefyd, dydy ysgolion ddim â'r un mynediad at wahanol grantiau a ffynonellau cyllid sydd ar gael efallai mewn sectorau eraill. Felly, mae'r arian y mae ysgolion yn gallu tapio i mewn iddo o gronfeydd gwahanol yn gyfyngedig, neu hyd yn oed ddim yn bodoli o gwbl, y tu hwnt i'r hyn sydd yn dod trwy'r awdurdodau lleol, trwy Lywodraeth Cymru. Felly, mae yna anghenion difrifol yn ein hysgolion ni.
Tra fy mod i'n derbyn, mewn colegau addysg bellach, fod angen y cymhelliant ychwanegol yna yn ariannol er mwyn sefydlu rhywbeth o'r newydd neu i'w ddatblygu o drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg, mae'r un her yn ein hysgolion ni o ran cynnal. Ond hefyd, dylid cael yr un ystyriaeth pan mae ysgol yn dymuno datblygu llwybr galwedigaethol neu ehangu'r ddarpariaeth, ac yn gallu darparu hynny trwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg—dylai fod yna gefnogaeth ariannol ar ei gyfer o, ac, yn yr un modd, y gefnogaeth hynny sydd yn cydnabod pynciau lle mae'r niferoedd yn is, fel bod ysgolion ddim yn gorfod naill ai sybsideiddio'r ddarpariaeth trwy gronfeydd eraill o fewn yr ysgol, neu yn gorfod dod â chyrsiau i ben oherwydd nad yw'r fformiwla cyllido yn caniatáu iddyn nhw gynnal y cyrsiau yna. Ac unwaith mae yna gwrs yn diflannu, mae ei adfywio fo yn anodd iawn. Felly, mi fyddwn i'n dweud, tra'n derbyn y sefyllfa yn y colegau, mae angen edrych o ddifrif hefyd ar y fformiwlâu cyllido sy'n cefnogi darpariaeth yn ein hysgolion ni.
May I note that the same challenge faces schools, to the same extent, if not more so, in terms of maintaining and increasing their provision? School budgets are very, very tight. The funding formulas aren't necessarily the best in terms of meeting what is needed to develop provision for the future because of the way that they are calculated. But also, schools don't have the same access to different grants and funding sources that are perhaps available in other sectors. So, the funding that schools can tap into from different funds and sources is limited, or perhaps doesn't exist at all, beyond what comes from the local authority, the Welsh Government. So, there are serious needs in our schools.
Whilst I accept that, in FE colleges, there is a need for that additional financial incentive to establish something anew or to develop it through the medium of Welsh, the same challenge exists in our schools in terms of maintaining provision. But also, there should be the same consideration when a school wants to develop a vocational provision or expand provision, and are able to provide that through the medium of Welsh—there should then be financial support for that, and, similarly, that support that acknowledges those subjects where the number of pupils are lower, so that schools don't have to either subsidise their provision from other sources, or have to wind up the courses because the funding formulas don't enable them to maintain and sustain those courses. And once a course disappears, it's very difficult to revive it. So, I would say that, whilst I accept the situation that exists in colleges, there is a need also to seriously look at the funding formulas that support provision in our schools.
Thank you, Chair.
Thank you. Well, thank you for joining us this morning. We do have additional questions; would it be okay if we wrote to you? Yes. Fantastic. Thank you so much for your time; we really appreciate you joining us. You'll be sent a transcript for checking in due course. Thank you. Diolch.
We'll now take a short break, until 10.45 a.m.
Gohiriwyd y cyfarfod rhwng 10:32 a 10:45.
The meeting adjourned between 10:32 and 10:45.
We move on now to agenda item 3, which is the eighth evidence session for our inquiry, routes into post-16 education and training. I'd like to welcome Faith O'Brian, managing director of Cambrian Training Company—you're very welcome—and Jude Holloway, managing director of Educ8 Training Group. Thank you. We have a series of questions from Members, and I believe Carolyn Thomas is going to start.
Good morning. We've heard there is a variation in the quality, content and nature of careers advice given and information provided to learners, especially for vocational educational routes and apprenticeships. So, why do you think this is, and what is the impact of this on learners when making decisions about their options after year 11?
Shall I start, Jude? Perhaps I can put things into context for Cambrian Training. So, we are deliverers of apprenticeships pan Wales. Over the last two years, we've engaged with approximately 670 16 to 19-year-olds in the sectors of hospitality, manufacturing, sustainable resource management and, in small situations, leadership and management. When we sign an apprenticeship up, we obviously need to understand their journey to get to that apprenticeship stage and what their ambitions are. So, we do get to speak to them about the careers choices that they've been informed about up to that point.
I would say that, in schools, the careers choices are fairly inconsistent pan Wales, especially where apprenticeships are concerned. So, generally, when we engage with 16 to 19-year-olds, the majority of them haven't had apprenticeship advice within schools. Sometimes, I think that's about knowledge and skills. I think it can be very dependent on the school itself. Sometimes schools have good relationships with colleges and providers in the local area, and therefore they get engaged with careers choices. But sometimes that doesn't happen. Jude, do you want to pick that up?
Absolutely. So, we're coming from our perspective on this. Educ8 training, very much the same as Cambrian, deal with a number of young people aged 16 to 19. We also have a small schools provision. So, we go in to some schools and deliver, to year 10 and 11, vocational qualifications. Those schools are few and far between. Whether it's affordability or appetite, the question is there.
We also work with a number of learners who are in education otherwise than at school, so they're not in education. We see them probably at the end of their journey in school, and then they're almost at the point of that this is the next and only option for that young person, before they turn into a NEET, not in education, employment or training. What I would say is—I would echo what Faith has said—it's inconsistency. Some schools are fantastic. I think it can depend on the individuals and the knowledge of individual teachers as well. But we often find that the advice given is very narrow in terms of: FE, sixth form.
Okay. So, do you look at what jobs are available in that local area as well, to see what skills are needed, and feed that into the young people, so that they've got clear pathways to encourage them into those jobs, they can see that end there? Or is it more the priority of growing what the children—sorry, young people—might be good at and what they think they would like to do going forward? I'm just wondering about those.
I think the key there is what interaction we have with pre 16. We are limited in terms of the level of interaction. So, we tend to, as independent providers, engage at careers fairs; we used to engage at Skills Cymru. But, if you can imagine the number of schools there are pan Wales, for us as a resource, as an independent provider, to enter all of those schools—. We work with RLSPs. So, I sit on the board of mid Wales RLSP and north Wales RLSP—
Can you say 'RLSP' in full, just for those people that might not know?
Sorry. Regional learning and skills partnerships—mid and north Wales.
Thank you.
I also sit on the sub-boards, which is the provider. So, we engage with employers and careers at that level, to inform them of the offers available. So, really, indirectly, we get to influence the career choices, but I think that level of communication, from those meetings to actually being in front of the learners and the individuals, is inconsistent. Does that answer your question, sorry?
Yes, it's fine. My second question is: to what extent do you believe there's a misunderstanding about work-based learning and apprenticeships amongst learners, parents, carers, teachers and careers advisers, as opposed to—? So, having that work-based learning as opposed to academic learning as well. What can be done to improve this and who needs to take it forward, do you think? Who needs to lead on this and push it?
So, I think it's been a historical challenge. And I think, here in Wales and also across the border in England, work-based learning has always been seen as this poor relation. What you do with children that aren't engaging at school? Send them to do a hairdressing course, for instance. We have lots and lots of young people that come to us who are incredibly bright, and, actually, because they've had the support at home and the parents understand what an apprenticeship is, or they've been engaging in a vocational—. So, we do quite a bit with equine and animal care. A lot of our learners come to us because they've had horses, and, where they've got their horse, the employer's gone, 'Do you know what, you'd be brilliant at this?' And so they've had an input that's outside of all other areas; it's the employer driving that wish and desire and that passion in that young person.
So, I think it comes from lots of different places, but I think it's just a lack of parity. For me, personally, having worked in education in FE and HE, work-based learning is—we're going to say this, aren't we—my passion; it really shifts the dial for some of these young people. It's the driver that should be seen; a level 3 apprenticeship should have parity with an A-level. We're working really hard with the Universities and Colleges Admissions Service in England to get points, for instance, to acknowledge the hard work that that young person has done and the work skills.
So, I won't stand on my soapbox too long for that, but I think it's parity of esteem and it's people understanding what an apprenticeship is. The amount of people that come to me and go, 'So, what do you do, Jude? Do you look after construction—bricklayers, plumbers?' No. There's a myriad of things that these young people can do. And you know what? The foundation economy—I will stop in a sec, Faith—
That's okay. [Laughter.]
The foundation economy needs these people.
Yes. There's a shortage.
Yes, you know. And I think—
There's an absolute shortage. But how do we get that message out there to learners and to people? Who should lead on that?
So, first of all, it has to be neutral and independent. It doesn't matter whether that individual, that pupil, is academically able or not, they have to have the same choices available, from A-levels to FE to apprenticeships. But also, I think, it does need to be careers. It needs to be teachers, it needs to be everybody giving independent advice that is learner centric. Because there are a lot of influences that learner has at that age and we need to make sure we take account of all of those influences and give them fair, independent advice.
Very often, it's parental influence. So, to have that other influence and knowledge is important.
So—. Sorry, Jude.
No, go on.
If I can just give you an example, as independent providers, we used to sit on Skills Cymru—Skills Cymru, yes—in Cardiff and in north Wales. We used to have stands and we would try and promote apprenticeships, careers pathways and the value of earning while you're learning et cetera. What we actually experienced is a myriad of schools coming and bringing bus loads of year 10s and year 11s, where their choices had pretty much already been made. There were no parent interactions at that time. The schools that came was dependent on whether they had the funding for transport to bring them to the venue. And then, when you actually speak to the pupils, it was all of their friends and it was about how quickly could they get around all of the individuals. It wasn't about career choices; it was about a day out from school. So, we really do need to focus on career choices and include apprenticeships within that.
What I would just come back and also say is I think we've got a brilliant opportunity now with Medr, in terms of you've got all the right people post-16 sitting in the room that come from all different areas. That is brilliant—a great move. But, actually, if we don't get these young children, even at primary—. You look at trying to get more women and young girls into science, technology, engineering and mathematics areas; if you haven't got them before they've left primary school, good luck with that. I think there's been data and some work done on—. By the end of year 7, a young person—a child at that point—pretty much knows where their pathway is going to be for the next six to eight years. That's frightening.
I wanted to look after horses.
There we are.
But it didn't happen. [Laughter.]
We can make it happen; it's fine. You might be overqualified for an apprenticeship though, unfortunately.
Thank you, Chair.
Thank you. Thank you, Carolyn. Over to Joel, please.
Thank you, Chair, and thanks ever so much for coming in today. I know you've already touched upon it with your answers to Carolyn there, but I just wanted to touch upon access to learning, access to the school, because, as you mentioned there, you're small independent providers, there are loads of schools, it's not always possible to go into all the schools. But, in both of your written evidence, you've gone on to a little bit more about the difficulties in, actually, for example, accessing sixth forms, and the competition there in terms of how they're almost graded on how many they send to university, really, rather than on to—. And I just wanted to get your ideas on that.
But also, I know, in England—I've got to apologise, I've got a bit of a cold—you have the Technical and Further Education Act 2017, and I think in there you've got like a Baker clause or something that's there that says, actually, you've got a statutory right to go into schools. I thought that covered the entire United Kingdom anyway, but apparently it just covers England, I suppose. Would there be something similar here, do you think, that should be in Wales? Or would that put too much pressure on you then, to do that?
In reality, going into every single school, which is what we're talking about, logistically, I think, is not feasible for us as a singular, independent provider. However, I do think that, as a group of providers that deliver apprenticeships—there are only 10 providers in Wales delivering apprenticeships—there is an opportunity to get together and actually make sure that the message that we give to careers, to schools, is consistent, and, as a group, we can give the correct information and share the choices. And there are so many choices for individuals and routeways into employment.
Absolutely. We've also got a perfect opportunity coming down the track with vocational certificates of secondary education; I'm sure you're all familiar with that. We, as an organisation, are already planning our approach to that. We're a relatively small provider. We've got a contract of £11.6 million. So, what we have decided to do is we're going to, hopefully, target secondary schools in south Wales and try and start engaging this year with preparing those schools for what our offering could be. And our offering would be not everything—we're not going to be all things to all men—but we would provide vocational training to enable those learners to move through pathways, through routeways, into apprenticeships 2, 3, 4, and, hopefully, build on. But how successful that will be remains to be seen, because schools are busy. Schools are busy; teachers are busy. And, I think, probably from Faith's and my perspective, it's not the case, I think, that schools don’t fancy doing it; I think they've got 101 things that sit above it at the moment. That's what I would say.
Do you think there should be a statutory requirement for schools to allow you access then to learners?
So, from my perspective, I would say that that would be brilliant. But along with that comes a resourcing challenge for providers. But, I think, even if—. You know, you go back years ago, when there was really sound career advice in schools—. Unfortunately, budgets have been squeezed. We've removed the professionals that were delivering that, then it's been part of someone else's job, and the quality, I would suggest, maybe, has diminished. But it would come down to resource at that point.
I completely agree with you, Jude; it's a resource issue.
I think that's it, Chair, thank you.
Thank you. We'll go online now to Vaughan, please.
Good morning. Bore da. I'm going to ask a bit more about the effectiveness of careers support—it sort of follows on. Don't feel the need to repeat anything. But I'm interested in—this is a bit of a repeat—the extent that the poor quality and the availability of support to learners result in the likelihood of those people becoming not in education, employment or training. I guess not just generally, 'Yes, it does', but where and how you see that. We're interested in how to not just describe the problem, but if you think there are answers, bearing in mind even the current budgetary challenges we have, about how you think our system could be improved, whether that's in schools or the role that you might have in trying to improve the level of information and support that our young learners have.
Do you want me to pick up on this one, Jude? So, initially, obviously, we work quite closely with the youth engagement and progression framework and the lead workers that highlight the individuals that are at risk of falling out and becoming NEETs. I think there is a challenge in terms of the quality of information that those individuals get for the transition into their next steps. I think that it’s really important that these individuals get personalised career support and mentorship, and again, that the breadth of offer, the post-16 offer, is available to them. What we generally find—and we were just talking about this beforehand—especially with FE and HE, the number of drop-outs that we get from FE and HE that go on to apprenticeships and effectively attain the apprenticeships—. We haven’t analysed that data yet, but, actually, I think that’s something that’s really worth pursuing, to look at the drop-outs from FE and HE, and the careers advice and choices they were given at that time. I know a survey has gone out recently, this week, I think, to parents, which I’m completing myself, and I think that it will be really interesting to see the data that comes from that as well. Do you want to—?
Unfortunately, I don’t think it’s one silver bullet to solve our problem. We know that NEETs are rising, the volume of young people that have got nothing meaningful, to either train or education or in work. I think we’ve got to shift the—. Something’s got to change somewhere, otherwise we’re going to be discussing this in five years’ time. And I think, if there would be something that would allow access to these young people before they become disengaged. Because ultimately we don’t want them at the end of their journey at school, and then teachers coming to us and going, ‘Please do something’ or, ‘Can you do something?’. So I think it’s advice and guidance from the very get-go, I think, and whether that’s a statutory requirement, that is above my pay grade to suggest, I’m afraid. But I think something fundamentally has got to happen pre 16, before we get them in post 16.
So, look—and I’m sure you’re aware—there’s a youth engagement and progression framework that is already available, where people are supposed to identify earlier on those people who are at risk of becoming not in education, employment or training. And I know very well that, by the end of primary school, if not before, you’re likely to understand who is most at risk of that, and certainly in the early years of secondary education as well.
So, this isn’t approaching this from a ‘We don’t know anything, there aren't any systems in place'. I’m interested in how that information is currently used, and if you identify inconsistency that can usefully be resolved. Now, within that, with any systematic approach, you’re going to have individual actors who can choose not to do things. We’ve talked already about the fact that you’re in and engaged in some schools, but not in others. There are choices being made about that. But it’s about how we get past that.
We’ve talked a bit about work experience as part of that as well. Now, I’d expect you to say meaningful work experience is important for learners, but I’m interested in not just that, but this broader point: is this about the tools we have not being adequate, or is it how they’re used, and how consistently they’re used? And, as ever, it’s always helpful for us to have practical examples of what good practice looks like, because if there’s good practice, I don’t know, within Blaenau Gwent, then it shouldn’t be difficult for Torfaen to look at that and do something about it. If there’s good practice in Gwynedd, then why wouldn’t that work in Anglesey as well? So I’m really interested in your perspective on is it the tools we currently have that are the problem, or is it the way that advice and guidance is provided, or is it behaviour within the system.
I think it's all three.
Yes, I was going to say.
I think it's all three.
Okay.
For me, you’re looking at good practice, and where I have seen good practice, it’s where we look at co-production, which is individual-centric, where you take all of those three elements and they work effectively, and there’s an intervention and an identification at an early age, so that you can work with that individual to get the right choices on the table, so that you take all of the factors of that individual: their financial situation, whether they come from disadvantaged communities, their friend groups—because they influence—their parents. It all influences their choices. So, it has to be a co-production-type scenario, where you bring all of that together and it’s learner-centric.
One thing that I just want to go back to, in terms of, Vaughan, I think you said something about primary school, and would I be able to identify children who are going to be at risk of leaving the education system, occasionally at primary. I found out this week that we now have provision for education other than at school for primary-aged children. Now, that’s a problem for any country. And, to my mind, we've seen some very good practice in Monmouthshire. We work with schools there. We go in at year 10, and the conversation is had in terms of—. We at the moment—don't get ahead of yourself, Jude—only work in a couple of vocational streams. Our view would be that, as soon as we can, we would like to get in further with VCSEs and look at other areas. But my understanding, and I am happy to be corrected on this, is that at the moment VCSEs are not going to be mandated to schools. They're going to be strongly recommended.
So, I believe what we will be faced with is some schools that will be absolutely keen as mustard on this, and they will give the opportunity to a variety of young people they have. I also know that we are engaged with schools, predominantly at the moment that have said they cannot afford provision for those individual children. And especially, we had somebody come in this morning with reference to—. They couldn't afford what we were offering to provide, due to the fact that those children, actually, were quite academic kids, and they were quite happy with the fact that they were going to be on the academic train.
So, there is also an approach to the fact that do we only get the children to look at vocational stuff when they're not deemed to be, maybe, the A to C-grade learners. Do you see what I mean? Or, we have learners that have behavioural challenges. And I am not having a pop at the teachers in any stretch or form, but do we get them, because, 'Actually we just need them out of the classroom'? Faith started the answer by saying that it's a heady cocktail of all three, Vaughan, really.
I'm interested in not just the cocktail but the practical side of, 'Here's how you could try to deal with that in a way that doesn't try to apportion blame to actors in the system, but recognises that if it's centred around the interests of the learner and doing the right thing for the learner, it's ultimately going to be the right thing for the country to help them fulfil their potential.' How do you look at what we recognise is a problem, and how do you get to be better? And it's that opportunity to say, 'This is what appears to work.' I recognise that getting people in the same room always helps to do that. But if there's more that isn't in your evidence that you think would be helpful, and in particular, when we get to later on—. We've heard lots of people talking about the Cardiff commitment, and I'll finish with this point, Chair.
Lots of people talk about the Cardiff commitment and there are similar schemes in other local authorities. I think Educ8 referenced this in your evidence, as well. But about why you think the Cardiff commitment works, and then how you could get to—whether it's the Cardiff commitment or something similar—. You can't call it the 'Cardiff commitment' in Swansea and expect it to work. But how do you get something where the powers, soft and hard, that a local authority has with their employers and their schools can be used in a way to give people the widest range of opportunities for progress? And you may not be able to answer all that now, but I think it would be useful for us to understand why you think that scheme works and how that, as part of the answer, could be rolled out.
Just if I may, Faith and I, as we've said, caveat, three or four times, are managing the outcome and then finding learners when they come to us. We would not have the opportunity regularly to speak to anybody in pre-16 training. I've spoken to a couple of headteachers and actually they're probably the best placed people and the best educated people to be answering some of this. We can add our suggestions in there, Vaughan, but ultimately we're not experts in pre-16 delivery, and maybe we need to have all those people in the same room, as I said.
That's not an unhelpful suggestion in itself.
Okay, there we are. I'm getting my caveats in, you see.
Thank you. Thanks, Vaughan. Right. Next we have Cefin, please.
I'm going to be asking my questions in Welsh, so you'll need your headsets.
Mae'r cwestiwn cyntaf ynglŷn â darpariaeth cyfrwng Cymraeg. Mae tystiolaeth yn dangos bod cymaint o bobl ifanc sydd wedi cael addysg trwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg ddim yn dewis llwybr prentisiaethau oherwydd nad yw'r ddarpariaeth yna ar gael drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg am wahanol resymau. Pam ŷch chi'n credu dyw hi ddim ar gael drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg? Ydych chi'n credu bod y dadansoddiad yna yn un cywir, a pham nad ydyn nhw'n dilyn ymlaen i ddilyn prentisiaethau drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg?
The first question relates to Welsh-medium provision. Evidence has shown that so many young people who have received education through the medium of Welsh don't choose the apprenticeships pathway because that provision isn't available through the medium of Welsh for different reasons. Why do you believe that provision isn't available through the medium of Welsh? Do you believe that that analysis is a correct one, and why don't they follow on to pursue apprenticeships through the medium of Welsh?
I'll start off on this one. Cambrian Training is based in mid Wales. Thirty to 40 per cent of our staff actually are Welsh speakers. The majority of our provision can be delivered in Welsh. I would say, on engaging with apprenticeships and signing them up, we speak to employers and we speak to the apprentices and we encourage in every way, shape and form we can to have that provision, if they are a first-language Welsh speaker or if they are a GCSE A-C Welsh speaker, to have their apprenticeship delivered fully in Welsh. We have found over the last three years that we have real challenges with both the employer and the individual wanting to take up the apprenticeship in Welsh. So, it's available, but they don't want to take it up.
What they do want to do is they want—and bearing in mind that we delivering manufacturing and hospitality. So, hospitality is customer facing. What they do want to do is that they want to take up the apprenticeship vocally, so they want to speak in Welsh, they want to go through everything vocally in Welsh, but not the written word in Welsh. So, when they build their apprenticeship portfolio, they don't want to build their case studies, their reflection—they don't want to write in Welsh, they want to speak in Welsh. So, there is provision for that. We basically deliver the apprenticeship 30 per cent in Welsh, which is the verbal part, not the written. Does that make sense?
I would say that, in our experience, we have a limited number of learners who come to us who would like to learn in Welsh, and for those who do we absolutely facilitate that. One of our biggest barriers is that, because of our apprenticeship portfolio, clearly we've got experts who deliver vocationally and we've got some experts that just do not have the Welsh medium themselves. So, they may have conversational Welsh, but certainly when you're talking about technical words and technical descriptions, trying to find those professionals in the country is really quite difficult in some areas.
Mae'r ail gwestiwn yn dilyn ymlaen. Rŷch chi wedi ei ateb, i raddau. Pam dŷch chi ddim yn credu bod dysgwyr yn ddigon hyderus i ddilyn cwrs llawn prentisiaeth? Dwi'n derbyn, Faith, y pwynt roeddech chi'n ei wneud eu bod nhw efallai'n gyfforddus i wneud gwaith llafar trwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg, ond pam ddim y gwaith ysgrifenedig? Oes unrhyw dystiolaeth gyda chi i'n helpu ni i ddeall pam mae hynny'n digwydd?
The second question follows on from your responses, to an extent. Why do you believe that learners don't feel confident enough to pursue a full apprenticeship course? I accept, Faith, the point that you made, that perhaps they feel comfortable to do the oral work through the medium of Welsh, but why not the written element? Do you have any evidence to share to help us to understand why that isn't happening?
We recently had an Estyn inspection, and obviously this is something that we looked at in great detail. I'm going to go on the back of what Jude said: sometimes it's the technical side of it. So, last week, we had somebody write a menu in Welsh, in hospitality, and actually because of the—I don't speak Welsh, so I'm not sure of the detail of it, but because of the difference in the dialect for one of the starters—. It was the difference between 'snake' and something else. So, I think it's the confidence in the technical side of it and also the—. Where we say that some individuals, some apprentices, have a GCSE grade A to C, if they do have that grade C, are they confident in the written Welsh? Sometimes we have individuals who start a partial Welsh apprenticeship and they end up doing a full one, because their confidence grows and grows and grows. But, in answer to your original question, that's the initial barrier, it's their confidence.
I guess in hospitality the oral interaction is really important—
Absolutely.
—but we need to—
From both the employer and the apprentice. They're very keen for that to happen. It's a culture that we have in Wales. You go into a pub and you want to get the Welsh and the English.
Yes. But you do support the development of confidence in the written skills as well.
One hundred per cent. Yes.
Okay. Diolch.
Thank you. Okay, we now have some questions from Natasha, please.
Thank you, Chair. The issue of transport has come up a lot. We speak a lot about it in this committee and it's come out a lot through the evidence that we've received as well. I wanted to ask, in your experience, how much of a consideration is transport and the cost associated with transport? Is it a barrier, or perhaps an issue, for learners, particularly when it comes to deciding to do an apprenticeship after school?
So, mid Wales; need I say any more? There's very limited transport in mid Wales. It's a huge consideration, but not only in mid Wales. If we take south Wales—. I'm talking hospitality. How many shifts in hospitality finish before 10.30 at night? I don't know if anybody's tried to get any form of transport from Cardiff to the Valleys after 10.30 at night—it's really, really difficult. There are safety concerns, especially for 16 to 19-year-olds, so, in terms of that, that is a real challenge and it's a huge consideration for individuals. The cost, obviously, is of consideration as well. Free transport would be brilliant for 16 to 19-year-olds employed, giving them the breadth of ability to attend—even though they are of employed status—the jobs. I think that would be really beneficial for them.
Yes, pretty much exactly the same. I think we've got a number of young apprentices who live rurally and we're relying on mums and dads to pick them up from bus stops, and we have a number of safeguarding concerns when you're talking about young people travelling later at night or in the dark, let's say, in the winter months.
So, do you find the public transport issue is just an issue in rural areas or that it can be based in cities as well, such as Newport? I know that Cardiff is a bit more cosmopolitan—you have a few more links to it—but in places like Newport, Swansea, Bridgend, areas that perhaps aren't as large as Cardiff, but still have city status, they have better links. Is the same problem there as well, or just to a lesser level than perhaps—
A lesser level. I think it's dependent on the jobs that they are in and whether it's shift work. I don't think it's an issue nine to five—Cardiff, Newport, Swansea; it's not really an issue, but if you're looking at shift work and you go outside that nine to five, it then becomes an issue. Obviously, in mid and north Wales, it's an issue generally in terms of the availability of transport and the frequency.
The only other thing that we've experienced is the reliability of some of it. I'm not sure we can get that sorted today, but when you've got young people who are then on trains that have been cancelled and have to swap three, four or five times, if then there is any barrier to stop them getting their shoes on to get to work, that's not helpful.
Okay. I'm glad you mentioned barriers because that comes nicely to my next question. Obviously, you spoke about transport, but are there any other barriers, through your experience, that you feel that young apprentices in the future, or young aspiring apprentices do, in fact, face that you'd like to raise with the committee? We've just spoken about transport, but are there any issues that you think we may not be aware of, or any issues that are perhaps prevalent that aren't really brought to the forefront as often as you perhaps would like them to be?
I'm sure you're aware of them, so I don't think we're going to tell you anything that you're not aware of. So, obviously, apprenticeship wages, and that's very much dependent on the employer, because some employers look at apprenticeship wages and give the minimum wage for apprenticeships, and some actually top up and there's parity. Then, obviously, the Welsh language, especially in hospitality, it could potentially be a barrier, and—
How so? Sorry, just to elaborate for my knowledge—how would the Welsh language be a barrier in hospitality?
So, if you do have an individual who wants to participate in an apprenticeship in Welsh and the employer may not have that ability or doesn't condone that, that's where it becomes a barrier.
Thank you for the clarification, which I appreciate.
Does that make sense?
It does, it does. What about the financial support that's available to them?
Do you want to talk about that?
Yes, absolutely. So, one of the barriers that we've experienced with our younger learners is the effect of the barrier from home, parental support—and please don't ask me for great detail on this particular thing—but there is a belief or an expectation that if a child then starts an apprenticeship, that may well affect maybe what they can claim in terms of family credits and things like that. So, we've had quite a lot of push-back from parents, basically saying that they can't afford for their child to become an apprentice, which is bonkers, isn't it? And then unfortunately, that then, if they are being paid the national minimum wage for an apprentice, is a further barrier. So, that's really, financially, what we're facing. For independent providers to access any funding for young people for transport is nigh-on impossible. Colleges can—they've got access to that. If you're subbing—if you have a sub-contract, we don't—with an FE provision, it's slightly easier. But we have nothing to tap into to help our young people.
At all?
At all, that we have been able to access to this point.
If I can just put that into a real-life situation. So, Cambrian Training run the skills competition for hospitality and recently, in January, it was in the International Convention Centre Wales in Newport. It's very much geared to colleges and colleges have transport funding to take their FE learners, who are doing hospitality skills, and book them into this competition. It's an amazing competition—it's brilliant. For apprentices, there is no funding available, and we do have apprentices who come from mid Wales and north Wales down to the ICC in Newport. Either the employer has to fund it or the apprentice has to fund it themselves, and it’s quite significant—we’re talking £30, £40 to go to a competition—and that’s where we don’t get the parity in terms of promoting apprenticeships, sectorally as well.
Following on from that, Faith, if you’ve got successful learners, which is exactly what you want, and they go to national, international skills competitions, that then becomes out of reach for a lot of learners. A number of training providers would pay for it themselves—
Yes.
—but again, there’s only a limited amount of resource.
Okay. And a final subquestion: what about the ability to actually secure the apprenticeship in the first place by a young person? Because we often hear about young people being encouraged to stay in school to continue their studies—people want to have backsides on seats—so actually securing that apprenticeship. And I appreciate the financial issues you mentioned—I’ve encountered it where many parents who come to me about it, so they’ve had to decline their children from doing an apprenticeship because it affects their benefits; I totally get it—but when it comes to actually getting an apprenticeship, I appreciate that you’re there, but in the first answer that you gave, you said that you can’t be everywhere.
Unfortunately not.
So, what do we do to secure apprenticeships with an employer for those people who you perhaps can’t reach? What’s the best way to probe that, and to look into that to make sure no child misses out?
So, I think that comes from the drive from the employer to offer apprenticeships. We do lots of employer forums and we’ve got quite a lot of providers now that offer multiple apprenticeships, with not only just an apprenticeship for the duration of that apprenticeship—which would be 12 months’ study, 18 months’ study—it is a job, until they don’t want that job any further. So, I think the key thing here is really driving it through employers, because without employers there are no apprenticeships, because ultimately—stating the obvious now, guys—but it’s an employed status.
So, I think it’s a number of different approaches, but to actively encourage employers to want to take apprentices would be great. We have historically had incentives for them. That has had, certainly in certain areas for us—so an incentive for the employer to take on a young person—it has benefited in our areas. I am aware that in some other areas, it hasn’t been quite so beneficial, but for them to either have some form of funding that would offset salaries or offset something to encourage them to give that young person an opportunity would be great.
Okay. Thank you, Chair.
Thank you. I have some questions around data because in this committee, we always find there’s a shocking lack of it in everything we do. So, to what extent does a lack of published data that shows the trends of young people’s choices and destinations create limitations for the tertiary education sector in being able to plan future provision?
So, from my point of view, I don’t think it’s the amount of data that’s published; I think it’s the delay in data. There seems to be a lag. As an independent provider, we have to provide data to Medr now within eight weeks. So, there’s an eight-week lag for us to provide data as part of our contract management, yet some of the data that's published is over 12 months old. So, by the time they get that data, analyse it and publish it, there’s a lag. Obviously, I work with the regional learning and skills partnerships in mid and north Wales, and sometimes we’re looking through the observatory of data—we’re talking 2022-23, 2023-24. The whole vehicle for that is to look at future skills, so if we’re trying to look at future skills and we’ve got data that’s two or three years old, it’s nigh-on impossible to see how we navigate that path to get what we need.
Who do you think should be responsible for improving that data collection?
I think you need to look at each tertiary institute and look at what data is being collected, because I think we need to look at better tracking for learners, the progression for learners. So, it’s what data is being collected, how quickly it can be collected then by, say, Medr, and then how quickly it can be validated and published.
The only data that we would—well, we have access to other data—but the only data that’s freely accessible to us, really, is how many schools in south Wales, how many pupils, how many free school meals, how many points. So, actually, for us to be able to plan, it may be easier if there is any way of data being collected once VCSEs are rolled out, so then we would somehow be able to plot the likelihood of this percentage of learners moving forward into the vocational area because you've had this many do VCSEs. It’s a very tenable link, that.
I also think it needs to be consistent; so, across all of the institutes, the data that’s measured is consistent data.
Cefin, did you want to come in here?
Yes. I'm just going to come in on something completely different. Have you finished with these data questions?
Cwestiwn cyffredinol yn y Gymraeg. Pa mor anodd yw hi i ffeindio cyflogwyr sydd yn barod i gymryd prentisiaethau ymlaen? Ydy hwnna yn anhawster cynyddol? A ydych chi wedi gweld hynny yn gwaethygu dros y flwyddyn neu ddwy ddiwethaf? Dwi wedi siarad â chyflogwyr, ac maen nhw yn dweud wrthyf i eu bod nhw ddim yn gallu fforddio cymryd prentisiaethau ymlaen rhagor oherwydd y toriadau sydd wedi bod i'r rhaglen prentisiaethau gan y Llywodraeth. A ydych chi wedi gweld hynny hefyd?
A general question, which I'll ask in Welsh. How difficult is it to find employers who are willing to take apprentices on? Is that an increasing difficulty? Have you seen that getting worse over the last year or two? I've spoken to employers, and they tell me that they can't afford to take apprentices on any more because of cuts that have been made to the apprenticeship programme by the Government. Have you experienced that too?
From my point of view, it's not about taking on apprenticeships; it's about taking on any staff. I think they've cut all of their staff recruitment. Especially in hospitality, they're really keen to take on apprentices, 16 to 19-year-olds. It does come with some positive benefits for them and there's an element of skills and support, and we engage with the likes of the Celtic Manor Resort, et cetera. They are very keen, through their apprenticeship academy, to support and recruit apprentices.
Where we've seen an absolute direct impact is within the apprenticeship area of hair and beauty, to give you an example, a solid part of the foundational economy for Wales. Over the last three months, we have seen a sharp decline due to rises in national insurance, and small and micro businesses have basically said, 'We can't afford anybody'. As you can imagine, apprentices come with a need for training; they don't come fully formed, they can't learn by osmosis, they're not ready to cut hair on day one. These people that own these businesses need people in and earning money in this economic climate. So, we have seen a reduction. The will is still there, I think, the will and the want, especially in these more traditional apprenticeships. It's just the affordability of any additional person.
Ocê, diolch.
Okay, thank you.
Okay, thank you. Any other questions? No. Thank you so much for joining us this morning. We really appreciate your time. You'll be sent a transcript for checking in due course. Thanks so much for joining us.
I now move on to item 4, which is papers to note. We have five papers to note today, the full details of which are set out on the agenda and in the paper pack. Are Members content to note all papers together? Yes, great, I see they are.
Cynnig:
bod y pwyllgor yn penderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y cyfarfod ac o'r cyfarfod cyfan ar 20 Mawrth yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 17.42(ix).
Motion:
that the committee resolves to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting and for the whole of the meeting on 20 March in accordance with Standing Order 17.42(ix).
Cynigiwyd y cynnig.
Motion moved.
Moving on to item 5, I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42(ix) that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of today's meeting and for the whole of the meeting on 20 March. Are Members content? Yes. We will now move into private session.
Derbyniwyd y cynnig.
Daeth rhan gyhoeddus y cyfarfod i ben am 11:28.
Motion agreed.
The public part of the meeting ended at 11:28.