Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru

Prynhawn da. Welcome to the Equality and Social Justice Committee. We're a bilingual institution so there is instant translation available from Welsh to English. We've had apologies for lateness from Joel James, otherwise all Members are present. Are there any declarations of interest? I see none. 

So, we'll move straight into our further evidence session on fuel poverty in Wales. And I'm very pleased to welcome Rhian Bowen-Davies, the Older People’s Commissioner for Wales; Dr Sumina Azam and Dr Rebecca Hill, both from Public Health Wales; and Ceri Cryer, the policy adviser to Age Cymru. Thank you very much indeed all of you and for the three papers you've submitted. So, I just wanted to start off by asking the older person's commissioner—. No, sorry, I won't; I'll start off by asking Age Cymru—. You say in your paper that there's been a huge increase in the use of your advice line in the first nine months of this calendar year, compared to 2023, particularly around pension credit. I wondered if you'd just like to talk about why there are so many people who are not claiming pension credit. Because you give an even larger figure than what most people give—I think 56,000, or even 80,000. So, Ceri Cryer, I wonder if you could just comment on what you think the real figure is for those who are eligible for pension credit and are not claiming it.

Yes, we have had a big increase in calls, certainly around pension credit and the winter fuel payment. The calls we've been receiving around the winter fuel payment have largely been one of two things: firstly, callers who are not entitled to the winter fuel payment, and so want to explore other options, and, secondly, callers want to know whether they're entitled to pension credit so that they can get their winter fuel payment. So, we've been providing support by fully exploring each person's situation in a holistic way and offering assistance in the areas they choose. And we would often support these people by offering full benefits checks and looking at other entitlements or other ways they can increase their income, get support with their bills, a new boiler, perhaps free insulation. It's a full and comprehensive examination of their situation. And—

Ceri, can I just interrupt, because I'm having difficulty hearing your contribution? I think it's perhaps because you need to be directing your comments to the microphone. Could you just, perhaps—? Let's see if that improves things. So, I'm really wanting to try and nail down how many people do we think in Wales are eligible for pension credit and are not actually claiming it. Because your analysis of the Office for National Statistics figures gives us quite a higher number than what others have suggested.

This was some research Age UK did. They carried out an equality impact assessment of the UK Government's decision to means-test winter fuel payments, from the winter of 2024 to 2025. This was based on analysis that they did for this, and they came up with the figure of 56,000 pensioners who are estimated to be eligible for the winter fuel payment but are not in receipt of the pension credit. I don't know whether you heard the first bit—what I said in terms of the increase in numbers of calls that we're getting. So, the calls we've been receiving around the winter fuel payment have largely been one of two things. Can you hear me better now? Yes. Right, okay. So, there are callers who are not entitled to the winter fuel payment, so want to explore other options, and, secondly, there are callers who want to know whether they're entitled to pension credit so that they can get their winter fuel payment. And we've been providing support by fully exploring each person's situation in a holistic way, and offering assistance in the areas they choose. We would often support these people by offering full benefits checks, and looking at other entitlements or other ways they can increase their income, get support with their bills, new boilers, free insulation et cetera. So, it's a full and comprehensive examination of their situation.

Okay. Thank you. Rhian Bowen-Davies, obviously, it's very worrying that so many older people are not claiming what they're entitled to. Why is it proving so difficult for public services to join up the dots and bring these things together and actually target directly those who we think, and have very good reason to think, are not claiming it? I appreciate it's complicated, on the grounds that, if you have a small occupational pension, that takes you out of entitlement. So, I just wondered what conversations you've had, either with the UK Government or your opposite number in England, or with the Welsh Government, on how we actually get all the stakeholders talking to each other and then going for the people who really need this.

I think, just picking up on Ceri's point there, we're working on an estimate of at least 50,000 households in Wales who are eligible for pension credit who are not currently claiming, which equates to about £117 million of unclaimed entitlements in Wales. I think it's important to recognise that, with some of the campaigns we've had in Wales and the really proactive campaigning we've had, there will be older people who will still not contact a helpline, who will still not look to claim pension credit, and I think understanding some of the stigma, the embarrassment, the shame that older people may experience in not wanting to come forward and say that they're unable to cope with their current financial situation—I think it's important to recognise that, and therefore important to recognise that campaigning has brought us so far, but, actually, now we need to be far more proactive in identifying those individuals who may be eligible, and proactively contacting them and supporting them. I think your point about why that is proving so difficult and complex—yes, it is complex, but we do have data sets available to us, whether they're Department for Work and Pensions data sets, whether they're local authority data sets, and there are tools available that some local authorities in Wales have chosen to invest in that have enabled them to identify those individuals and then proactively contact them on the phone, go to their homes and have a conversation with them, and then support them through that application process.

One of the things that I spoke to the Cabinet Secretary and the relevant Minister about very early in my term was about financial support to local authorities to enable them to invest in those data-matching schemes that could enable us to proactively identify individuals. Whilst I welcome those local authorities who have taken that approach, what we can't have is a piecemeal approach where some local authorities have chosen to invest in those approaches and therefore older people are benefiting, whilst others may choose not to invest for different reasons, and older people are missing out. So, a consistent approach across Wales, whether that's nationally we invest in data tools that can be available, or on a local authority basis.

Some of the other things that I've spoken to Welsh Government about particularly is about having a specific fund available for older people who have missed out on the winter fuel payment. Whilst I understand that we're using some funding, and that is being channelled through the discretionary assistance fund, we know that that isn't appropriate for older people. The eligibility criteria is too narrow, and we know that older people don't use that discretionary assistance fund. So, having a specific fund that would be available would be welcome.

I think in the last couple of weeks as well, we've seen the proactive stances that have been taken in Northern Ireland and Scotland, and there could be an opportunity here for Wales to look at the process that those devolved nations have gone through, to understand whether a process such as that, in both nations—. They will be making £100 payments to all older people in Northern Ireland, no application required, for this winter, so support immediately for those who are missing out on the winter fuel payment; in Scotland that will happen next year for those who are not in receipt of pension credit. So, I think there are avenues that we could look at, Welsh Government could look at, to mitigate the significant impact that missing out on the winter fuel payment is going to have on older people in Wales, and on their health and well-being this winter.

Okay. But, equally, the UK Government could be looking at the DWP payments and cross-referencing them with the Inland Revenue, instead of writing randomly to people who actually are paying income tax and therefore are not going to be eligible for pension credit.

Yes, and we know this data is available; we're aware of some pilots that are happening. But in terms of the roll-out of those pilots, and specifically in Wales, it's going to be too late for the qualifying period, which ends in 12 days.

Okay. Thank you. Jane Dodds, you wanted to ask a question.

Certainly I made my views very clear, coming into my post, that I felt that this decision was the wrong decision. I felt that it should have been reversed. I think that opportunity has been missed with the budget. But I think that there are avenues that Welsh Government and UK Government could be looking at now in terms of assessing the impact that the cut to winter fuel payment could be making, but also considering whether changes could be made for the future. So, for example, could the qualifying benefits for winter fuel payment be extended so more people would be eligible? I felt that the decision was the wrong decision, I felt the approach was wrong in terms of it being rushed through, and I also felt that the timeline was unrealistic in terms of for people to apply. I feel that in terms of I'm aware of some legal cases that are being brought, and certainly I would very much support the decision being overturned, I'm just not sure whether that's a decision that will be overturned, and therefore looking at other options that are available to us.

Good luck on that one. Julie Morgan, would you like to come in at this point?

Yes, thank you very much. My questions are to Public Health Wales. I wondered if you could tell us what the public health implications are of the findings that you had in your winter fuel payment advice, in your paper, where you say that pensioners are really acting in a way that may be detrimental to their health by reducing the temperature setting on the thermostat, an increase in people skipping meals or reducing meal sizes. What does this mean for their health?

I can answer that question, and thank you for the question. We've been able to set up a programme of work on housing, warmth and health and well-being in Wales since 2021, and we've produced a number of outputs. The one you've described there is an output where we compared survey findings of a household survey in Wales undertaken in winter 2022 compared with winter 2023, and, exactly as you described there, we saw a trend towards reduced heating, so our respondents were telling us that in 2023, compared to 2022, they were setting their thermostat set points to lower temperatures. They were also less likely to tell us that they were heating the whole home. We also saw an increase in the proportion of the respondents who said that they were reducing the size of their meals or skipping meals, an increase in the proportion who were telling us that they were anxious or stressed about the cost of heating their homes as well.

I think the findings are very significant because it suggests that, over that period of time—and, of course, we know the cost of energy increased significantly—people were feeling impacts in terms of affordability and changing some of their behaviours in the household. It's important because we've also done quite extensive work in reviewing the evidence on indoor temperatures and health and well-being. We know that colder homes are linked to heart and lung conditions, infectious respiratory illnesses such as flu. We also see higher rates of deaths in cold months. Some of that excess has been attributed to cold homes, and we know that the majority of those deaths accrue amongst our oldest population in Wales. We also have evidence that older people in colder homes have higher blood pressure and cholesterol, problems with sleep and reduced physical performance, which can affect falls and mobility, which of course can result in injuries and hospitalisations.

So, there are big public health impacts in terms of the findings that we've reported for older people, but also for people of all ages. We found that, in particular, people who were privately renting their homes were statistically more likely to live in colder homes. They also reported a lack of thermal comfort in their homes, which is a subjective feeling of satisfaction with the warmth in their home, and we know that that is also linked to poorer well-being. So, obviously, there are mental health impacts as well. We know more about the physical health impacts than we do the mental health impacts in the evidence, and that's something that definitely needs work within the older population, but also across age groups as well.

Thank you very much for that, and those are grim consequences, aren't they? When you say that there are higher deaths linked to colder homes, how have you evidenced that?

We've used official statistics around excess winter deaths, and also there are some statistics where it's estimated that around 30 per cent of excess winter and cold related deaths might be related to cold homes.

Thank you. So, what action is being taken to alleviate the broader public health impacts of living in fuel poverty? Are there any gaps? Are there other things that public health should be doing that can counter this?

I think there are gaps. I think one of the key gaps is that we need to know more about the scale of fuel poverty now, what are the statistics telling us, particularly in light of recent years where we have seen Brexit, increased concerns around climate change, with cost of living, energy prices continuing to go up. We need to have a better understanding of the scale of fuel poverty, but also the impacts as well. So, how are—? People living in colder homes or in fuel poverty or facing fuel poverty, how are they impacted? What is the impact on their health and their well-being? What is it that might tip a household that's just about coping today, tomorrow into fuel poverty?

We've been able to do some work, some qualitative work, around lived experience with low-income households in Wales. We haven't published it as yet. It's due to be published next year. But we've started to analyse the data, and what we can see from that is some people are either not heating their homes or heating their homes and not being able to warm the home completely. We're seeing quite low temperatures through objective measurement of their home environment and temperatures.

So, I think we need more evidence around impacts. I think we need more monitoring and evaluation. We refer to this in our most recently published report around the satisfactory heating regime, but it would also apply more broadly, perhaps, to, say, energy efficiency schemes and other initiatives to help people facing fuel poverty. We need to understand more about what works, what doesn't work, what are the differences to people's health and well-being, are there any unintended consequences, and they are some of the key gaps, I think, that need to be addressed.

Thank you.

Can I bring in Dr Azam?

Thank you. I just wanted to take the opportunity to also add to my colleague’s response, and I think, public health, what we really do is add in terms of that holistic approach to health and well-being and the links to fuel poverty. So, for example, it's really easy to see these issues in separation, but, as Rebecca has highlighted, fuel poverty and cold homes affect health, and they affect the health of so many different population groups.

One of our roles is absolutely in terms of understanding the data, understanding the evidence, but also sharing that and helping and working with our partners to understand those links. Fuel poverty and cold homes also contribute to health inequalities. So, the poorest in our population, the most vulnerable in our population, are affected. And I think that is part of our role, in terms of raising the awareness of that so that we really do target our interventions at those who are most likely to be harmed by the impacts of cold homes.

We also have a significant number of tools in our skillset. So, for example, a health impact assessment is a really valuable tool in understanding how these significant policy decisions can affect health and well-being. And I think the other thing that we can do is very much support our partner organisations, but also Government. So, we're very fortunate, we participate in the fuel poverty advisory panel, and that is a key opportunity to bring together different voices in this sphere.

[Inaudible.]—what you’ve just said. The evidence that we have received shows that particular groups are particularly vulnerable—disabled people, for example, and children are particularly vulnerable. So, how effective do you think is the current way of tackling and targeting support?

Fuel poverty support? May I just clarify: is that fuel poverty support, or to do with winter fuel payments?

Yes, fuel poverty. 

Well, we are part of the group that advises Government in terms of response to fuel poverty. And what we try and do is really bring forward the health and well-being impacts, to help a broader understanding of the issues, but also to make sure that we protect vulnerable populations. We do know that this plan takes us to 2035, that there are really ambitious targets and that the Warm Homes scheme has got a very much welcome change of direction in terms of how to support the most vulnerable. So, we think that the way that it's being approached is positive, but I am aware that the scale of the challenge is huge.

You said that you advise the Government. What about advising the health boards, because we know that Cwm Taf Morgannwg have been looking at patients with respiratory disease and trying to get them better warmth in their homes through the ECO4 system? So, what are other health boards doing, based on your analysis?

So, we’ve been working on healthy homes, health and housing, for a number of years and our work has been building up over time. And what we’ve been trying to do is advocate for a joined-up approach between homes and health. So, healthy homes very much contribute to health and well-being. They’re one of the key building blocks for good health. And our role has very much been to work with colleagues in local health boards. So, for example, we have worked with public health colleagues in Cwm Taf Morgannwg. We’ve also worked with colleagues across health boards to try and support them in their work. So, for example, in north Wales, there’s a considerable amount of work going on with local public health to bring about change in bringing together the health and housing sphere. We’re aware of and we’ve been involved with colleagues who’ve worked on building a network of practice across Wales to bring together the health and housing sectors.

Thank you.

Can we move on? Jane Dodds, would you like to come in, please?

I think Rhian Bowen-Davies did indicate. 

I think the Warm Homes programme in itself we welcome as an approach, in terms of that transition between achieving net zero and addressing fuel poverty. And whilst welcoming the changes to eligibility criteria that have come in, most recently in terms of low-income thresholds and recognition of health conditions and being able to make repeat applications, I think I still have some concerns in terms of the programme itself, in terms of the scale, in terms of the funding that’s attributable to the programme, but also the monitoring, evaluation and reporting against the programme. But, significantly, more recently, I was concerned around what I was hearing around eligibility criteria and boiler replacements and repairs, which didn’t seem to be being undertaken, which, in some circumstances, could have left households without heating or hot water. As a result of being made aware of this, I wrote to the relevant Minister, and we understand now that boiler replacement and repairs will be included within the scheme, but only until the end of March, and I think the push from myself would be that this has to continue. There has to be a balance between that transition to net zero but having warm, safe and energy efficient homes, and where that means a boiler is repaired or replaced, then that has to continue, going forward. So, that would be my response. In terms of any future programme, I think what we do need now is clarity and transparency in terms of eligibility, accessibility, and the support that is available to eligible partners, and that clarity for referrers, for providers of that scheme, but also for members of the public, so that we are reaching as many people as possible.

Sioned Williams indicated that she wanted to come in, Jane, and then I'll come back to you.

Actually, the older people's commissioner has just answered the question I was going to ask.

Great. Back to you, Jane.

Chair, I think Sioned was going to cover part of this piece as well, so I'll ask a couple of questions if that's all right, and then Sioned can come in. Thank you. I don't know, Sumina or Ceri or Rebecca, whether you'd like to come in just on that question, and I'll pass on to Sioned after that.

I was just going to add that—. Can you hear me all right? I have some difficulties with my microphone. Certainly at the very outset, the programme did include some flexibility towards boiler repairs, but as the commissioner said, it's not something that we've been seeing on the ground, and there does seem to have been very much an emphasis on heat pumps, and sometimes these haven't really been appropriate for various houses. There hasn't been the option of offering any other sort of help, really, so we are pleased to see that the boiler repair and replacement scheme is back. Again, we have concerns that it's only perhaps going until March 2025, and we'd like to know what will happen after that. But it is important that the assessors on the ground know about this flexibility in the scheme, and we welcome that there has been a customer journey leaflet that has been developed. We do appreciate that.

I have seen previous evaluations, which have shown potential positive impacts from a health perspective—so, reductions in GP visits—although I do know evidence can be very mixed and it does take time to build up. I think we have an opportunity, though, going forward, to very much think of it more holistically, so to think about the impacts of the scheme in terms of health and well-being as we monitor and evaluate the scheme, and I do think we need to think about the impacts of the scheme in terms of the breadth of vulnerability. As my colleague Rebecca has highlighted, yes, older people, those with disabilities and those with long-term conditions are very much vulnerable, but there are also other groups who are really very much in need of support. So, I think there is an opportunity to think about the breadth and the complexity of the vulnerability of our population.

The view of my predecessor in terms of the consultation on the targets was that the time period was too broad, and that there was certainly a need for interim targets. I would fully support that. I think that having targets at the very end of the scheme—. We need interim targets. We need interim targets before the end of this Senedd term would be my view, and that investment then follows those targets. I think without those interim targets, there is a risk that we lose focus and that we aren't able to monitor or hold to account in terms of an absence of those interim targets.

I think some additional interim targets would be helpful to understand how the scheme is progressing in supporting the most vulnerable, and also understanding what matters to people, whether it's their health and the impacts on health, whether it's their safety, whether it's their comfort. I also think there's an opportunity here to understand the impact of the scheme on other sectors, for example the healthcare sector, and how it's helping people out of poverty. So, I think there's a real opportunity in terms of targets and measures that will help us to get to the long-term 2035 goals.

I also think some of the interim targets need to look at those people who are at risk of fuel poverty, so those households that might experience some financial instability, or, given price increases, might find themselves very quickly in fuel poverty and struggling to cope. So, I think having some interim targets around those who are at risk would be very welcomed as well.

I just want to know how well, between you, you are targeting those who are the worst first; particularly, elderly people living in the private rented sector seems to me an obvious candidate for specific attention. So, I wondered if any of you are able to tell us about a way in which you are reaching out to those people, because they're paying more rent and more likely to be in homes that need urgent work. 

Certainly from a commissioner's perspective, one of my priorities is to go to communities and to the places where older people are living, where they're going on a daily basis and having conversations with older people about their experiences. And certainly over recent months, what older people are saying to me is that they're having to make really difficult decisions in terms of how much they're eating on a daily basis, the individual rooms that they are heating, whether it's individuals who are living off grid in terms of gas or oil that they're using. They are experiencing extreme anxiety, anger and distress about this and about the situation they are finding themselves in. I think it goes back to a point that Dr Hill made in her first response in terms of to enable us to target and to monitor the progress that is being made, we need better up-to-date and reliable data that we don't currently have, and I think not only that data in terms of fuel poverty, but breaking that data down into categories that we can understand the impact that fuel poverty is having on different age groups, so looking at a five-year age category so that we're really understanding the number of individuals who are experiencing fuel poverty and living in fuel poverty and the impact that that is having. And I think that goes back to something quite fundamental in terms of data being available that we are able then to use to target.

Thank you. We'll now move on to Sioned Williams, who's got some questions about the Warm Homes programme. Ceri, did you want to add something first of all, before we move on?

Yes. In terms of reaching out to older people, we do carry out an annual survey for people aged over 50 in Wales, and certainly, in our most recent annual survey, 50 per cent of older people told us that they found their physical health a challenge, with nearly a third of people telling us that they felt that their physical health had deteriorated during the last year. Forty-eight per cent found the cost of living a challenge, and a third of people told us of increasing challenges with their mental health. This is very concerning, obviously, in the light of the winter fuel payment.

In our survey, we do ask about housing, and we gave evidence to the Local Government and Housing Committee on the private rented sector. So, we do ask people about housing. The survey covers a range of topics, really, all sorts of areas, health, social care, transport, housing, and the challenges that people are facing as well. So, we do hear from older people. We've also got some direct quotes from older people, for instance, linked to the lack of the winter fuel payment. People have told us:

'It will be a huge struggle to make do on my pension. I lost my husband two years ago and with a single pension coming in it is a constant worry on how I am going to pay my bills.'

Somebody else told us:

'We will have to have the heating off more and find ways of cutting down on cooking, heating and hot water. Because of health reasons this is going to be really difficult.'

So, we are—

Thank you. I think we need to move on to what action is being taken; these problems have been identified by yourselves and others. Sioned Williams.

I think I would refer to the Welsh Government's heat strategy, in that I mentioned that, on many occasions, heat pumps seem to be the only offer that people have had, and they're looking to change that now. They state that the upfront costs of heat pumps are still beyond the means of many people, and the operational costs of heat pumps, compared with gas boilers, are one of the major barriers to transition. These increased costs, coupled with the loss of the winter fuel payment, could risk pushing people into further fuel poverty, so I think it's important to understand and look at it in the round, really, what the extra cost may be in terms of moving towards heat pumps, which may be more expensive than running other energy-efficient measures.

I think I'd refer to my earlier response. I don't think that balance is there yet. I don't think that the new eligibility criteria take into consideration the fact that Wales has some of the oldest housing stock in the UK, therefore the least energy efficient. Also, it doesn't necessarily take into account the individual circumstances of individuals who are living in those properties, particularly older people, in terms of how they're living their lives, any health conditions that they may have. So, I think we need to work towards a better balance, from that transition to net zero to ensuring that homes are warm, safe, energy efficient and protect the health and well-being of those who are living within them.

So, does anybody—? I think we're trying to understand, really—. It goes beyond the debate about heat pumps, which are only one strategy for dealing with cold homes.

I'm happy to come in, Chair. Just going back, again, to an earlier response, I think there's something about people being aware of and understanding what the schemes are and what they can offer. So, that's when I spoke about that clarity that was needed for members of the public and communities in terms of what the benefits of the scheme could be, what was on offer, but also the support and aftercare that's in place, then, after any installations have happened, so that it really is not just about the assessment and the work itself, but it's about the ongoing support and understanding, so that people are clear in terms of who can benefit from the support, what the support is and the extent of the support itself. And I don't think we're there yet in terms of that understanding.

Diolch, Sioned. We made a recommendation in our most recent report, around people living in colder homes, that they have information and advice available to them that is accessible and inclusive so that they are informed in terms of how they're heating their homes, and I think that would apply in this context, as well, in terms of some of these schemes—that people need to have the information available to them. Also, we've spoken around monitoring and evaluation. I referred earlier to unintended consequences, and it's important that if people have newer technologies put in their homes, they know how to use them so that they're using them properly and making the home warmer and more efficient, and if there are any barriers to that, we need to understand that quickly. And that's why I think we need to maintain that sort of monitoring and evaluation over time, so that we can course correct if things go wrong for certain households.

Who wants to go first? Rhian.

Yes. I've not heard directly through the advice and assistance team, or through my engagement with older people. I've not heard that evidence directly. So, what I've seen is the evidence that's been submitted to this committee and reports that certainly evidence what you're saying, Sioned, in terms of the referrals decreasing. Certainly, my understanding is that that was from some of our national organisations who are used to referring in, such as Care & Repair, and they've seen their referrals drop considerably in the last year.

Likewise, we don't have any direct evidence about referrals, but it's something I could ask our advice team, and if there is anything, could we come back to the committee on it?

Very good. Over to you, Mick Antoniw.

A few questions about area-based and local authority schemes, ECO Flex schemes. To take you to the policy statement for the new Warm Homes programme, it doesn't include a successor area-based scheme to Arbed. Now, the previous Minister had suggested that small-scale area-based schemes could be developed. I just, really, wonder what your thoughts are on what a successor area-based scheme might look like.

Who wants to go first? Rhian Bowen-Davies.

Just in response to that question, I think there's certainly value in having both a demand-led and an area-based scheme, and certainly I would support that. I think there are benefits to an area-based scheme, such as economies of scale, neighbourhood benefits and possibly benefits to the local economy. I think that what I would say, in terms of developing any area-based scheme, is that they need to target those most in need. So, whether we're looking at fuel poverty, whether we're looking at energy efficiency, we need to target those area-based schemes. They also need to be complementary to the demand-based scheme or also any loan-based schemes that may be available in an area, so we have a range of approaches that could be operating in an area. I think funding needs to be distinct and specific to the area-based scheme, rather than seeing that funding as funding both demand-led and area-based schemes. And, going back to something that we have stated already, I think there's the importance of monitoring and reporting in terms of any area-based scheme, so that we understand who would be eligible and whether they've been able to access the programme, and, if not, what are the reasons, so that we can look at future improvements to the scheme, but also the importance, again, of information being made available in digital and non-digital means to communities so that they understand what that scheme is, how it can be accessed and the support that would be made available to them. And, again, there's that concept of transparency and clarity in terms of the scheme, its accessibility and its eligibility. Those would be my thoughts on any future area-based schemes. 

Thanks for that. I don't know whether anyone else wanted to come in. I just wanted to follow on with that, unless there was anything in particular. If I could perhaps just refer to Ceri, really, because, in your paper, you expressed some concerns that ECO schemes have lacked an inbuilt regulation, so however the schemes are developed, as area-based or more broadly, that they they incentivise installers to seek out clients, and, again, we know there are experiences of manipulative behaviour by rogue traders. I suppose, really, if you could explain a little bit more about that, how widespread the problem is, the scale of the problem, and I might have a few questions that follow on from that, if that's okay. 

Well, we have heard of some cases of poor work, really, in relation to the ECO4 from our HOPE project—helping others participate and engage. It's an advocacy project. So, for instance, there was a case in Denbighshire where installers only fitted some of the design adaptations and left gaps in the walls around plug sockets. These problems had to be remedied by care and repair. We had another case reported to us of an individual reporting that an air-to-water heat pump being installed upstairs on a section of thin, bowed floorboards, so remedial work to be undertaken to ensure that the weight of the pump for the 150-litre water tank would not cause the floorboards to break. And we've also heard from another Age Cymru source of an older person having a boiler installed by a company who used ECO4 funding and the boiler has broken down repeatedly over the last year and required fixing several times. He's now concerned that they'll stop repairing it when the warranty expires. So, these are just some examples that have come to our attention, really.

I suppose it's really about the broader scale of it. We know, in the past, certain schemes—cavity wall insulation, where you had independent traders—that some of them turned into an actual sort of scam in many ways, with people having things done that they didn't need because the traders were being paid. Now, you've given three or four examples of poor workmanship. Well, poor workmanship occurs, unfortunately, from time to time, but is this a more endemic problem? Is it a problem that arises from, I suppose, the fact that you have the traders who are seeking out the work and it's open to, basically, a lack of regulation as to who does it, the quality control and so on? Is it broader than that, or are you really just telling us there have been a few examples?

Well, I suppose these are examples that we're hearing about and have been brought to our attention. So, I'm not able really to comment on the actual scale of it, but it's something that I could ask some of my colleagues and come back to you, if there is evidence. We are hearing about quite a few examples, really, but I wouldn’t be able to give you a figure on the actual scale.

I suppose it's just a question as to whether there is a deeper problem and that then leads to the fact that there needs to be more specific regulation or evaluation in some way. I don’t know if anyone else has anything that they can add to this. It’s the evidential base I’m interested in.

We would recommend that the UK Government rethinks the ECO scheme in advance of the termination of ECO4 in 2024, with a view to increasing regulation and removing incentives for installers to pursue sales aggressively, without due consideration for the vulnerability of clients.

I suppose the issue is, though, isn’t it, that you don’t want to develop further regulation unless you know that there is a need for that regulation and there is a problem that needs to be addressed. So, this is very much work in progress. Are you aware of any more—? You’ve given examples, but I suppose it’s a question as to whether there is any systematic evaluation of the quality of work that’s carried out. Are you aware of that or not?

No, but I think it would be very important to have that monitoring in place, and the evaluation, definitely, if they’re not already there.

Okay. I'll just move on, then, if there was no other input, to the variation between local authorities in Wales in terms of using the ECO Flex schemes and any evidence on the scale of variation that there might be. Should there be greater consistency? Would greater consistency actually provide better delivery overall? Are there any particularly good examples in particular local authorities in terms of best practice that could be learnt from? And what is your general knowledge of the variability from authority to authority? Anyone? I take it, probably, that there’s no detail or evidence in terms of that level of variability, so that’s perhaps just something, Chair, that I probably ought to leave and we can explore again.

Okay. Fine. We can come back to that. Do you want to go on to the issues—?

What I was going to move on to, then, is a number of other areas and so on, and that is really the support that’s available to households that are at risk of fuel poverty. So, in addition to the Warm Homes programme, how joined up is the Welsh Government’s approach to that?

Rhian Bowen-Davies.

Yes, I’m happy to come in on that question. I think that there has been some positive joined-up working—the Welsh Government with the industry, suppliers and network—certainly around some of the elements around prepayment and energy debt. So, I think there is a precedent of positive and effective working relationships. I think I would certainly be looking on the Welsh Government to draw on any levers that they have, going forward, in terms of further tackling fuel poverty, thinking specifically around enhancing those joint working opportunities for local authorities, for health and for housing, to really look at the wider determinants of fuel poverty, and I think also to recognise that, on the relationship between the Welsh Government and UK, we’re still possibly exploring what that is going to look like. So, thinking about some of the things that are happening on a UK level, like the Great British Energy Bill, what will that mean for Wales, what could consequential funding mean for Wales around that? Thinking about how the UK Government have looked at specific support—I think it’s the household support fund that they’re looking at in England—what consequentials could come to Wales and how do we utilise those? I’ve already said this afternoon that I think there should be a specific fund for older people who’ve missed out on winter fuel payments this year, and also that that isn’t channelled through the discretionary assistance fund. We know that older people don’t use that fund. The eligibility criteria is really narrow. It’s for those in hardship and crisis, so wouldn’t meet, possibly, the needs of older people. We know that older people don’t use that fund, so that’s why I’m calling for a separate and distinct fund that could support older people who find themselves in hardship and crisis this winter.

You touched upon—

Could—

Oh sorry, apologies.

Sorry, can I just come back on that? We’ve already got quite a robust framework in the Warm Homes programme, which we took evidence on last week. So, we’ve got those who provide the advice, which is one organisation, British Gas, supported by a sector-leading renewable energy advisor, who is providing the next, and then a third body is providing the evaluation. So, is that not something that we need to be building on, rather than inventing other schemes going ahead?

I think, absolutely, to build upon that in terms of the scheme itself, but in terms of thinking about older people and other vulnerable groups who are in fuel poverty now, and this winter, and the scheme and the scale may not reach them for some time, I think we need financial support for those individuals this winter.

So, there’s no evidence at all then that individual vulnerable households are being targeted.

Not to my knowledge, no.

Thank you. Anybody else got any—? I’ll bring in Sioned in a second. Anybody else got any evidence that this sort of targeting of the most vulnerable is going ahead? Okay. Sioned.

Mick Antoniw, back to you.

My system has muted. Is there any view in terms of the level of engagement between Welsh Government and UK Government on this? There seems to be a lack of information as to how things are progressing. Is there anything further anyone can add about the level of collaboration that's taking place? It may be that this isn't the correct panel on which to address this, but if there is any view on it. I know there's a desire for that co-operation to take place, but does anyone have anything that they can add that adds to that? If not, I've only got one real final question, and that's really just with regard to the Green Homes Wales pilot scheme, what the view is as to what extent that complements the Warm Homes programme.

I think that's certainly something that was in my mind when I referred, in my earlier response, to any future area-based scheme needing to complement the Warm Homes programme, but also any loan-based programmes, I think, because the demographic within a community could be very different, and therefore you're drawing on different schemes depending on the community and the levels of income that you have. So, certainly, that would be my view: that it would need to complement. I probably don't have enough information myself in terms of how it's being implemented as to have a view on how effective that is currently complementing.

Okay. Thank you for that. 

Okay. But, potentially, those people who are reluctant to come forward to get money from the DAF—. People feel reluctant to say, 'I need help.' Do you think that the Green Homes borrowing scheme at zero interest rate is a way to encourage more older people to come forward, on the grounds that it's not charity, it's a loan to enable you to carry out works that you might not be eligible for under the Warm Homes programme?

I think we might still find ourselves in a position where older people might have that stigma and that shame and that embarrassment to acknowledge that they might need any financial assistance. And certainly when I've spoken to older people and they speak very much about them being home owners, but actually not being able to afford to heat that home or do the repairs in that home, I'm not sure that that scheme even would reach those older people.

Even though, if they own their own home, obviously there's a way of putting a charge on the home for when they decide to sell it, you don't think that would encourage them to think a bit more broadly about the benefits of improving the warmth of their home.

It's not something I've had conversations with older people about since I've been in post. I'm not sure how that would be perceived by older people.

All right, thank you for that. Jane, you wanted to ask a question. Jane Dodds.

Blue-sky thinking, then.

I think if we were thinking blue-sky thinking then it would be to reintroduce a payment to those older people to be able to afford to heat their homes, certainly, and that may not be through a winter fuel payment equivalent, but I think there are things that can be done. It's recognising that, for many older people, they have a fixed income, and therefore things like energy costs going up, the cost of living, they are having to budget within a fixed income. They don't have opportunities to increase that income necessarily. So, thinking about how we could support those who are most in need around fuel poverty and wider poverty here in Wales.

Okay. Ceri.

Yes, we would echo that, certainly, because older people often cite their energy bill as one of the largest, most concerning outgoings, due to the uncertainty around the fluctuation in price, with price caps going up. Certainly, yes, it’s really about money in people's pockets to be able to pay these bills. So, yes, winter fuel payment or other support coming from Welsh Government. Certainly we talked about the household finance scheme. Something that we did find with the discretionary assistance, we haven't got a lot of feedback on that, but people did say that the application process was quite hard, and also some of the sums of money are often quite small coming through. So, perhaps another type of funding, as the commissioner outlined, would be very welcome.

Okay. Dr Azam.

Thank you. Just the opportunity to very much agree with colleagues that fuel poverty is part of wider poverty, and should be seen as one of the aspects when we think about tackling poverty. The cost-of-living crisis has had an immense impact on our most vulnerable. It has widened inequalities, and I'm not always sure that people are aware of the significant harm that can occur due to cold homes, due to fuel poverty, due to poverty, both physical, mental and social. So, I think that's a really important message to put forward.

Okay. Sioned.

We have in the past looked at health and housing together and how much poor homes impact the health sector. I don't have the figures in front of me, but it is significant. And we also know that if you invest in homes, make them healthier, invest in making homes warmer for most vulnerable populations, there's a significant return on investment. I'm very happy to provide the committee with that information. But we are very much aware that this is something that not only is important to health and well-being, it also impacts the health sector, it's a cost for the health sector, and if you invest in warm homes, if you invest in the fabric of homes, it improves health but it also has benefits for other sectors, including the health sector, and I can send that information through. 

So, are you aware of the work that's been done by Warm Wales to analyse all the data to literally be able to identify the specific areas where the worst fuel-poor homes are? Are you familiar with Warm Wales and this work?

Is that to me, Chair?

Well, you or anybody, but you were the last speaker, so go ahead. 

Okay. I haven't been involved with the work of Government in terms of Warm Wales and the data analysis. I'm not sure if it's been discussed at the fuel poverty advisory panel because that may have been a point of discussion there. But I think analysis of data and looking at what we have, and also thinking about what we could have, going forward, to make sure that our impact, monitoring and evaluation are as robust as possible is really important. I'm not sure if my colleague Dr Hill has heard anything at the advisory panel.

Rebecca. 

I haven't any more than you have, Sumina, but I did want to come in on the point you made around investment in energy efficiency. I think some of the investment can be quite small. What we found with our survey respondents was that a number didn't have a thermostat or a digital temperature controller in their homes. And what we found was that when we compared people who lived in colder homes and warmer homes, people in colder homes had worse health impacts, were more likely to report skipping meals, and so on, but the people who didn't have a thermostat or a digital temperature controller were also at risk of some of those negative health impacts. So, I think there is something around simple technology sometimes that can really support people to understand how to heat their homes, if or where they might need to be making changes as well, so that they're more informed in terms of home heating. And I think that could be something through the provision of something like thermostats, and we did find a number of people didn't have that among those people who responded to our survey.

Okay. We have run out of time more or less, unless there's anybody else who wants to make a burning comment. Thank you for your evidence and we will obviously send you a transcript of what you've said, so that you're able to correct any anomalies that might have crept in. Otherwise, thank you very much indeed for contributing today.

We'll now take a short break and we'll resume at three o'clock with our next evidence session, hearing from two of the local authorities.

Welcome back to the Equality and Social Justice Committee's inquiry into fuel poverty. We're pleased to welcome Keryl Lanfear, housing strategy officer for Rhondda Cynon Taf County Borough Council, and David Mark Lewis and Meilyr Tomos from Gwynedd council. Welcome to all of you. I wondered if you could start by telling us what your role is in enabling your residents to improve the heating in their homes, particularly those in the worst housing for insulation and warmth. Who would like to go first? Meilyr.

David Lewis, is there anything you want to add to what your colleague has just said?

Very good. So, do you make use of digital maps to be able to identify where the poorest homes are?

[Inaudible.]—conversation, but I wondered if I could first of all ask you, David, how you let people know about these ECO schemes and how many households you have supported to date, while this ECO scheme has been available from the UK Government.

Okay. Thank you for that. Can we just come to Keryl Lanfear, to tell us about what's happening in Rhondda Cynon Taf?

Of course, yes. Good afternoon, everyone. So, my remit is mainly the policy and strategy side of development within the heat and save team, which is a part of housing strategy. So, I would be the one responsible for collecting the evidence base, in terms of what the council's interventions are under our own affordable warmth strategies. We used FRESH data when we did our last strategy in 2019, and we're in the process of developing the new one now from April onwards. We use a lot of data that's available publicly. So, we would use WIMD data, the Welsh index of multiple deprivation, and we use the Office for National Statistics data. We found the FRESH data useful that we purchased through Warm Wales last time, because that helped us overlay a lot of data that was relevant, to help with our strategic targeting of areas. Because we deliver demand-led grants, but we also like to do area-based interventions, and we create quite a lot of bespoke projects for particular areas that are suitable to those circumstances, to help target those that are harder to reach.

Over the past three years, we've been successfully delivering funding from the shared prosperity fund, from levelling up. We've delivered over 350 heating grants and 148 solar photovoltaic grants. The heating grant is means-tested, whereas the solar grant was more incentive based, whereby the council was offering 25 per cent, or up to £1,000 discount, to home owners who would actively move forward with us. So, we would consider that our able-to-pay market, if you like, so we tried to have responses for both.

Under the heat and save banner, we operate that like a one-stop shop, if you like, so that we're a signpost and referral hub, to provide advice to residents. Because we want to make sure that any measures that are going into homes are technically suitable for the property, like my other counterparts in local authorities have mentioned, but also technical and suitable to the person's circumstances. I think, particularly when looking at low-carbon heating and renewable heating, such as heat pumps, we have to consider the comfort levels and the circumstances of the occupants as well as the property itself. Although we can't provide tailored advice individually, because we just haven't got the capacity for that, unfortunately, it is about steering people to find the best options that are available in the marketplace for themselves.

One of the issues with the grants that are available that we noticed is that people's eligibility can cross over a variety of different schemes, so it's very important that they access assistance in the right order to maximise the funding. And an example would be, if someone proceeded to put one measure in a property, they might inadvertently have then made themselves ineligible for other types of funding schemes that could have offered a package of measures. So, I think there's a definite gap for advice to home owners in terms of accessing the funding that is available out there.

Okay. I'll come back to you in a minute. Jane Dodds.

David Lewis.

Thank you. Before I hand over to a colleague, I wondered if I could just ask you how the ECO schemes work alongside the Welsh Government's Warm Homes programme. Are the two complementary, or is there any tension? So, in RCT, does the heat and save banner cover the Warm Homes programme as well as the ECO schemes?

In RCT, we cover the ECO schemes, but we do have arrangements in place with the Nest teams and the Energy Saving Trust for the transfer and signposting of people back and forth. But in terms of bringing funding together, that's not really working on the ground at the moment. The schemes are delivered very separately. 

Okay. But you will refer people who can't or won't want to go ahead with the ECO schemes to possibly be eligible for the Warm Homes programme, so you refer them to Nest?

Yes, we would, if they came to us. Some of the barriers to that are because ECO and ECO Flex are delivered in the marketplace, sometimes it can be the installer or the canvassing agent for that particular installer that's engaging with a customer and a resident, and then it would depend whether they would flag them back. Because they could be telling them they're not eligible at that point. So, how it works is the customer is trying to find an installer that's going to take their property forward if they're potentially eligible. So, I think there's a definite gap in terms of the advice that could be given to people at that point in the process, for their journey.

Thank you. What about the situation in Gwynedd? How do the two schemes interface? Meilyr.

Do you refer people to Nest if you think that the ECO scheme's not suitable for them?

Thank you. Can I call Julie Morgan now, please?

Prynhawn da. Well, really, following on from what Meilyr has said, we've received evidence suggesting that the ECO scheme lacks inbuilt regulation and does perhaps encourage rogue traders to get involved in possible manipulative behaviour of their clients. So, are you aware of this sort of behaviour, and do you have a view on how the scheme is regulated? Perhaps, Meilyr, you could answer that, following your comments about Nest being more trustworthy.

Thank you. What about RCT? Have you got a comment on the way that the ECO scheme is regulated?

Julie, before we—

I think, yes, I'd just agree with what's been said, but also I think the biggest gap is that post-install advice for the home owners or the occupants of the property, and I think if there was some sort of wider national advice service available that it would help relieve some of the issues that are being experienced on the ground. We have had experiences where we've had residents come to us because of post-install issues, and we've had to advocate for them and support them in terms of advice on next steps, and I think particularly with ECO Flex schemes, because, once they see a local authority logo or name on a scheme, I think residents step back and think that it's a fully managed scheme by the local authority, whereas in fact all the contractual relationships are between them as the home owners and the company of their choice that they're using. So, I think it's more about residents being aware of the recourse and aware of the service level standards that they should be having at the end of an install to know—. An example would be someone needing to know that they need to carry on with ongoing servicing and maintenance of measures, otherwise they might null and void particular guarantees. But people are not always made aware of that through some of the schemes that operate in the marketplace.

Okay, shall we go back to David Lewis, because he wanted to comment earlier?

Yes. Thank you very much. What could the Welsh Government do to support more local authorities to utilise the ECO schemes, or, if they do use them, to take maximum advantage of them?

Who would like to go first? 

Who would like to start?

David Lewis, your microphone is open. 

Could I just ask you, following that up—? You say that the providers come to you and say there isn’t enough money left. Is that when they’ve started schemes, or—? At what stage would they come and tell you that?

Just for clarification, David, I wondered if you could tell us, of the 353 homes that have had work completed, was that under the Flex scheme, or a combination of Flex and ECO?

The Flex scheme.

The Flex, thank you. And the 900 approved is under the Flex scheme, is it? Or is that—? Yes. Okay. So, you don't really have much data on how many people have independently taken up the opportunities from the ECO scheme. They wouldn't necessarily come to the local authority.

Thank you very much. Can I now invite Sioned Williams to come in?

Thank you. In terms of the gaps that I see in data, it's a lot to do with property condition as well. We have some data that we pull from different places, but some examples would be that you are targeting these areas and then actually there is no money available for enabling works to make sure that the measures are installed, and, when you're dealing with fuel-poor households that can't afford those types of works, there are massive gaps, and my analogy is that we can't put a solar panel on a broken roof. And I think it's looking at the lack of money available through energy efficiency schemes, but also it's about matching that data, because what we are finding is that those that are more at risk of fuel poverty are living in the lowest performing homes in terms of energy inefficiency, but also property condition and standard and things as well. So, I think I'd like to see more opportunity for that type of data to be factored in as well, to help us with our targeting.

Meilyr.

Diolch. Keryl, you wanted to come in. 

Thank you. If I can just add that we did purchase FRESH data, but it was a few thousand pounds. I think coming back to an earlier point on lack of specific roles in local authorities, there is a very diverse mixture of people that are dealing with energy schemes sitting in a variety different departments. And let's consider that it's not a statutory function, so I think sometimes, the capacity within local authorities is completely all over the place, really. In England, they've still got designated HECA roles, the Home Energy Conservation Act officers, but that was repealed in Wales. I was a previous HECA officer before those changes, and I think since then, there has been a complete variance on the ground. We haven't got the capacity that other local authorities have got to do the statistics, which is why we purchased it. Fortunately for us, we had the ability to purchase that, and it was considered a priority, and I think sometimes in other local authorities you've got the balance of perhaps they haven't got people in roles, but then they obviously are not in a position to purchase the data either. I think if it's available, it would be an option that many local authorities would take on board, because we just don't have our own software and stuff in many cases.

Definitely. From an RCT point of view, we would welcome that. If that data was available nationally and we could pull it down, that would be really useful for us.

The other thing I wanted to add onto that earlier was that we delivered a maximising ECO scheme, which was delivered via Arbed funding through area basing, and we would welcome some form of area-based Warm Homes programme coming back for us that we could look at blending funding with external schemes and fitting things into cross-tenure approaches in communities as well.

Thank you. Jane Dodds.

In terms of the eligibility, that does seem to be working well, and fitting; it's more about the measures that are being offered, as has been mentioned. In RCT, we've predominantly terraced housing. We're a predominantly on-gas area, and what we're finding is that, sometimes, heat pumps are not the most suitable solution for homes. We've got permitted development rights issues, we don't see people wanting to go down the full planning application route. And also, switching people from gas on to electric, we have to consider whether that is most appropriate for them at that moment in time. I feel there needs to be more confidence built into these measures, like solar PV now is widely known, widely accepted. I think we need this transition period before we get to rolling out heat pumps on a mass scale. We've been delivering our heating grants for number of years, and we've not delivered one heat pump, because it's customer choice. When gas boilers are available, people are preferring to go for that model.

While energy bills were particularly high, we didn't want to be in a situation where we were pushing people from gas onto electric, knowingly pushing them perhaps further into fuel poverty. Obviously, I know energy bills have come down a little bit, but they're still not where they were at pre-pandemic costs, and I think that just needs to be considered, an interim approach for people, while we go through this journey of transitioning to net zero and decarbonisation. There needs to be more support for schemes. If people didn't want to take up a heat pump, what other options are the Warm Homes programme offering them at this moment in time?

Keryl, do you want to go first? You're on mute, Keryl. 

Sorry. Support for area-based delivery and using the resources that we have available to us first, as has been discussed. We're looking at local area energy plans, LAEPs, on a regional basis and things, as well. So, I think my ask would be let's bring it all together, let's bring up these joined-up approaches for area-based stuff and deliver more on a proactive basis, where we can, using what local authorities have got available, and other organisations, like has been mentioned about grid issues and everything. It needs to just be pulled together, really. Thank you.

Diolch, Cadeirydd.

Thank you. Sioned, did you quickly want to come in, before I go to Mick?

Yes, I agree, and I think that would bring a level of consistency across local authorities. As David mentioned earlier, as ALEO chair for Wales, we’ve made our own connections and things anyway, so we have contact. We’ve got 20 local authorities participating through ALEO Cymru now, which is really positive. But I think, in terms of having that presence within a local authority, in terms of other services and things as well, it would probably raise the profile a bit of energy and fuel poverty in that sense. I think, in terms of the data, some networks maybe from Welsh Government, I know, in our ALEO group, has been talked about previously. When Arbed was being delivered through local authorities, we met quarterly and there was that network. I think, definitely on the ground, when you compare to other housing functions, there does seem to be more of a network that comes out of the Welsh Government, and I think that would be welcomed, for us as people delivering on the ground.

I'd have to check, off my list, sorry. I can get back to you on that.

Thank you.

Okay. The Association of Local Energy Officers, does that function within Wales?

Yes, that's what I mentioned—sorry, the name is ALEO Cymru and I'm the chair for that.

Yes, okay. Thank you very much.

That's only been set up for the past year. There was no presence in Wales previous to that. The previous iterations of it were the Carbon Action Network, and there was, obviously, the Arbed group, as I mentioned, but we did have a gap, which is why we pushed forward with it to set up our presence in Wales and to try and collect that one voice from us. And it was more about just networking on the ground because, as I mentioned, you haven’t got counterparts specifically in other local authorities to network formally—we find that, as officers. We’ve also got an informal spin-off type of arrangements with that, where a few of us, including David, get together and we just thrash out some issues locally to us and have that support from colleagues, I guess, albeit in different local authorities. Because in some local authorities, you could be the one person dealing with these issues, so there’s no-one else within your local authority with similar expertise and knowledge that you can bounce ideas off and debate things back and forth with. So, we use it for that foundation to do that as well, which I think, as officers, we all welcome. It’s really positive, sometimes, to turn up and realise we’re all in the same boat with some of the barriers and challenges. We are talking about meeting February/March time next year to collectively go through things, because we feed in with ORP contacts, I feed in with the Welsh housing quality standard people, but they’re all very distinct, different teams within the Welsh Government. So, I think it would be good to have one big network of something for Wales that ALEO could bolt into then as well, rather than there being separate spin-off versions.

Okay. We did have a couple of further questions. Are you able to give us five minutes more of your time?

Yes.

Right, if we can be brief in our questions and answers. Mick Antoniw.

The two areas I wanted to explore have already been covered, I think, in the answers that have been given, so I don't think there's any need to pursue those.

Okay.. All right, that's fine. Do either of you still have council housing, or is it all in the hands of social housing associations?

We don't in RCT; we stock transferred.

And in Gwynedd? Sorry—you don't have council housing either, is that right? Thank you for that.

I just had a couple of further questions for you, David—well, no, one question for you and one for Keryl. You mentioned that your mother, obviously, wasn’t familiar with the fuel EPC grading, et cetera. What was the impact of the Bethesda hydro scheme in terms of educating people on alternative sources of electricity, because, obviously, it was very specific to that one community? And you also mentioned the Tanygrisiau one, where all the energy seems to be going back to the grid rather than going into heating people's homes locally. Could one or other of you from Gwynedd just pick on that?

Okay. Meilyr.

Okay. Thank you. My final question is to Keryl. If you're saying that heat pumps aren't suitable for the type of housing you've got in RCT, are people offered solar panels or insultation as an alternative, if heat pumps aren't suitable, under the Warm Homes programme?

We would work with the resident to find out what their eligibility was and see where we could point them in the right direction or refer on. So, I'd like to think that the Warm Homes programme, being a fabric-first approach, would be actually doing that if people didn't proceed with heat pumps, or not. But I still think there needs to be some sort of interim heating option for households that are not quite there. I guess I wouldn't have the data available to me of how many homes in RCT that have not proceeded with any Warm Homes intervention because they didn't want a heat pump.

Okay. All right. Thank you very much indeed for your really interesting evidence. We'll send you a transcript of what you said, and please do correct it if we've got anything down wrong. And if we may, perhaps we might have one or two further questions of a more technical nature, or statistics, which would be really helpful to complement our report. Thank you very much for your time.

There are now, I think, seven papers to note, including one—the last one—on the foundation data for robust energy strategies for housing data that's been produced for one particular local authority area, which is Cardiff, and there are six other papers, mainly in relation to other correspondence on other inquiries that we're undertakng at the moment. Are we content to note those? Thank you. Sioned Williams.

That's No. 5.

Okay. We can definitely come back to that, and, obviously, we'll be having more discussion on this after Christmas.

So, can we now agree to move into private session, please?